Sitting of 11 November 1902

Preamble
The House met at Two of the clock.
The Clerk at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence of the Chairman of Ways and Means.
PETITIONS.
  CANADLAN CATTLE (IMPORTATION).
  Petitions for abolition of restrictions: from Galashiels (two); Selkirk; Biggleswade; Arlesey; Dover; Armadale; and, Bo'ness; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against: from Millbrook; Ampthill; Morse; and, Week St. Mary; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions for alteration: from Biggleswade; Arlesey; Dover; Armadale; and, Bo'ness; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions in favour: from Great Shefford; Southport; and, Birkdale; to lie upon the Table.
  PREVENTION OF CORRUPTION IN TRADE.
  Petitions for legislation: from Selkirk; Biggleswade; Arlesey; Armadale; and, Bo'ness; to lie upon the Table.
  RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
    TECHNICAL COMMITTEES (ENGLAND AND WALES).
    Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 5th August; Mr. Waller Palmer]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 369.]
    EVICTIONS (IRELAND).
    Copy presented, of Return of the number of evictions in Ireland for the quarter ended 30th September, 1902 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

    Cape Guardafui Lighthouse.
    MR. WEIR: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will name the Powers with whom the Foreign Office have recently been in communication in regard to the proposed establishment of a lighthouse on Cape Guardafui.
    (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) We have been in communication with the Italian Government, who exercise a protectorate over the country in which the cape is situated. The Italian Government are in principle favourable to the establishment of this lighthouse. The companies having lines passing through the Gulf of Aden are not agreed as to the advisability of the proposal, and no agreement has been arrived at as to terms.

    Zanzibar—Case of Slave Girl Msichoke.
    MR. THOMAS BAYLEY: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, if he has received the Report from His Majesty's Acting Agent and Consul General at Zanzibar as to the slave girl Msichoke who was handed back to her master by the British authorities; and if he is now in a position to give any further information on the subject.
    (Answered by Lord Cranborne.) The Report from the Acting British Agent and Consul General at Zanzibar respecting the slave girl Msichoke has been received. Papers on the subject will shortly be laid before Parliament.

    Colonial Patent Laws.
    MR. RIGG (Westmoreland, Appleby): To ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether he will grant a Return showing the official fees payable in respect of Letters Patent for inventions in each of His Majesty's Colonies and Dependencies in which such Letters Patent are issued, and at what times, and by what instalments (if any), such fees are payable.
    (Answered by Lord. Gerald Balfour ) The hon. Member will find the information

    587
    he requires as regards the self-governing colonies on pages 140 and 141 of the Colonial Conference Blue-book recently presented to Parliament and numbered [Cd. 1299]. I shall be happy to grant a Return if the hon. Member will move for it.

    Remount Officers—Status of Veterinary Officers.
    MR. RIGG: To ask the Secretary of State, for War whether the veterinary officers who accompanied the remount officers abroad were all members of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons; and, if not, can he state the number of veterinary officers who were thus employed, and how many of them were members of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.
    (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I am informed that all were members of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.

    Education Bill—Allocation of Undenominational Endowments.
    MR. OSMOND WILLIAMS: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether all income at present received by the managers of voluntary schools, including endowments, will under the Bill now before the House be paid to the local authority; if so, whether the local authority would be able to utilise any undenominational endowments in providing scholarships from primary to secondary schools; and if under the Bill such endowments are not to be paid to the local authority, whether he will introduce a Clause to that effect.
    (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) No general answer can be given concerning the income now received by managers, as each case must depend on its own particular circumstances The question of endowments is already dealt with in the Government Clause now on the Paper.

    Education Bill—Government Amendments.
    MR. CHANNING: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury, at what stage of the Education Bill and in what form he proposes to carry out the undertakings given that
    588
    Amendments shall be made by the Government to insure that persons other than the local authority who propose to provide schools shall carry out without unreasonable delay their engagement, that regard shall be had to the grouping and co-ordination of all branches of education under the same Education Committee, and other similar undertakings which have not hitherto been carried out in Committee on the Bill.
    (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) The undertakings into which the Government have entered will be fulfilled, in cases where statutory provision is necessary, by Amendments, or new Clauses to be proposed in Committee or on Report.

    London Water Bill.
    MR. W. F. D. SMITH: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can state when the remaining stages of the London Water Bill will be taken.
    (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) I am afraid I cannot fix the actual day for the resumption of the debate on this measure, but I propose to take the Bill after the Third Reading of the Education Bill in the course of the week beginning 1st December.

  (2.15.) QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    The Mediterranean Fleet.
    LORD CHARLES BERESFORD: I beg to ask the Secretarv to the Admiralty whether he will give the names of the following vessels forming the Mediterranean Fleet in June 1901; viz., battleships, cruisers, torpedo boat destroyers, and similarly the names of the vessels forming the Mediterranean Fleet at present date; also; if all stores and coal are now up to full requirements.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,, Belfast, W.): Since the date named in the Question, the following replacements and additions have taken place. Five battleships, "Royal Oak," "Royal Sovereign," "Empress of India.'

    589
    "Devastation," and "Hood" have been replaced by seven battleships, viz., "Bulwark," "Implacable," "Irresistible," "Formidable," "London," "Vengeance," and "Repulse." Two cruisers. "Theseus" and "Barham," have been replaced by five cruisers, viz., "Aboukir," "Hermione," "Pegasus," "Pandora," and "Intrepid." The number of torpedo boat destroyers has been raised from sixteen to twenty-eight. The stores of coal were up to requirements at the date named, and are in the same condition now. Owing, however, to the large addition to the Fleet, the requirements have naturally increased, and the total amount of stores and coal is larger than at the earlier date.

    Royal Navy—Pensions of Chief Petty Officers.
    LORD CHARLES BERESFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the question of the increase to the pension of the chief petty officers of the Royal Navy is still under the consideration of the Admiralty; and, seeing that the chief petty officers have repeatedly submitted their claims through their commanding officers since the year 1878, can he inform the House as to the decision the Admiralty have arrived at on this question affecting the lower deck of His Majesty's fleet.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The question is one of some difficulty complication. At the present time the Admiralty are considering it afresh as part of a larger scheme.

    Mr. Chamberlain's Tour—The "Good Hope."
    MR. LAMBERT (Devonshire, South Molton): I beg to ask the Secretary of the Admiralty whether, as the "Good Hope" is a cruiser presented to the British Navy by the Cape Colony, he will consider the advisability of arranging that she should first touch South African soil at the capital of the Colony responsible for this contribution to our Navy.
    AIEZNOLD-FORSTER: The route of the "Good Hope" has been arranged to meet the wishes of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, and it is not proposed to make any alteration. The hon.
    590
    Member appears to be under a misapprehension with regard to the contribution made by the Cape Colony to the Navy. Since 1899, the Colony has paid a sum of £30,000 annually to the Imperial Exchequer, and the spirit which has prompted this grant is greatly appreciated by the Government. The first cost of the "Good Hope," however, amounted to over a million, and the annual cost of maintenance exclusive of repairs, is estimated at about £100,000. It will be seen, therefore, that it is hardly correct to say that the cruiser was presented to the British Navy by the Colony. I may add that the Colony of Natal has also for some years past made a contribution to Naval Funds which, in relation to the population of the Colony, is no less generous than that made by the Cape.
    SIR WILLIAM ALLAN; May I ask whether the Admiralty are afraid to steam this vessel direct to the Cape, instead of from port to port, from Gibraltar to Malta and from Malta to Port Said?
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I am quite unaware how that arises out of this Question.
    SIR WILLIAM ALLAN: She is fitted with Belleville boilers.

    Sales of Army Horses in South Africa.
    MR. LAMBERT (Devonshire, South Molton): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether any animals suffering from infectious disease have been sold by the military authorities in South Africa; if so, whether that practice will be discontinued.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Lord STANLEY, Lancashire, Westhoughton): I have no knowledge of the alleged sales.
    MR. LAMBERT: Will the noble Lord inquire?
    LORD STANLEY: I not think such a thing could have occurred. All complaints of this kind would in the ordinary course be referred to a Departmental Committee of which I am a member, and none has reached us.

    South African Repatriation Boards—Purchasers from the Military Authorities
    MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, what has been the price paid by the Repatriation Board in South Africa to the military authorities for horses, mules, oxen, and waggons respectively.
    LORD STANLEY: After much discussion between the Departments a lump sum was agreed upon, and we can only divide this arbitrarily among the different articles. It has accordingly been settled that the following prices may be accepted as correct. For brood mares £25, £20 and £12 each, according to height; for geldings, £15 each; for mules, £27 each; for oxen in poor condition £10 each; for ox-waggons with teams of 16 oxen £200 each, and for mule waggons £30 each.

    Reservists' Pay Arrears.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, whether he is aware that Private Albert Finson, 20th Hussars (Depôt, Hounslow), returned to this country from South Africa more than two months ago, and, all his papers being in order, after communicating with his commanding officer to obtain the pay due to him, succeeded in seeing the Permanent Under Secretary of State for War on the 30th ultimo and received £14 out of the £28 due to him the following day; and whether he will state why the pay due to this man has been withheld, in contravention of the Army Orders, which provide that only one week should intervene between the first and final settlement of pay due to reservists and time expired men on their return from the war.
    I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Privates Wright, Denton, Andrews, and Haughton, 4th Hussars, now attached to the regimental depôt at Hounslow, reached England by the "Hawarden Castle" on 13th September on their return from the war; whether these men received £5 of pay due to them on 14th September, 1902, and £3 on 20th October, 1902, while the pay due to them is about £25; and, seeing that
    592
    these men have discharge certificates and their parchment characters, will he say why the settlement of pay due to them was not made on 21st September 1902, in accordance with Army Order, September 1902, which lays down that one week should intervene between the first and final settlement of all pay due to them; and whether all the papers and officers necessary to secure the prompt payment reached the United Kingdom at the same time as these men.
    LORD STANLEY: The men referred to in these two Questions have now been settled with. The cause of the delay is being made the subject of further inquiry.
    MR. CLAUDE HAY: Is it not the fact that immediately after these Questions appeared on the Paper these men were paid and no questions were asked about their papers?
    LORD STANLEY: I only know that one man was paid a fortnight ago.

    Army Staff Appointments.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state on what grounds it has been decided that every command and staff appointment of an ordinary character shall be for a period of three years only.
    LORD STANLEY: The tenure of staff appointments was reduced from five years to three, with the view of keeping officers more in touch with their units, and to curtail lengthened periods of absence on the staff. Power was retained, however, to extend an officer's tenure to complete five years in case it should seem desirable in the interests of the public service.
    MR. TULLY: Will the noble Lord consider the advisability of giving a command to General de Wet?

    Army Mobilisation.
    MR. YERBURGHI beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is the intention of the Government to keep a force mobilised and ready for embarkation; and if so, whether he will state its number and composition.
    LORD STANLEY: The reply to my hon. friend is in the negative. If he will consider the necessary uncertainty of the country in winch the force may have to operate, and the corresponding variations in its composition, equipment, clothing and transport, he will understand that his suggestion, to be made effective would have to be carried out on a very large and varied scale.
    MR. YERBURGH: Are we to understand from that reply that it is not intended to keep any force of any size whatsoever ready for embarkation without having to mobilize?
    LORD STANLEY: No, Sir. My hon. friend must not understand that from my answer.

    British Residents at Jerusalem.
    MR. YOXALL (Nottinghamshire,W.): I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to a petition of grievances sent, in or about the month of January, 1901, to the Foreign Office by British subjects resident in Jerusalem, complaining of their treatment by His Majesty's Consulate in that city; and will he say whether an inquiry was held.
    I beg also to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that a petition of British residents in Jerusalem complaining of their treatment by his Majesty's Consulate in Jerusalem was sent by the Foreign Office to his Majesty's Consul at Jerusalem; and that, thereupon, the Arab dragoman and clerk proceeded to intimidate the signatories; and, seeing that the grievances of British subjects at Jerusalem have gone unredressed up to the present, and that dissatisfaction with the way in which the consulate is carried on still prevails, will he make inquiries into this case.
    THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE, Rochester): he answer to the first sentence is in the affirmative. Inquiries have already been made into the allegations, which have not been substantiated, but further inquiries will be made through His Majesty's Ambassador at Constantinople.
    MR. YOXALL: Were the inquiries made by the persons accused?
    LORD CRANBORNE: They were made by the Foreign Office.

    Uganda Railway.
    MR. THOMAS BAILEY: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the advances from the Consolidated Fund under the Uganda Railway Acts have exhausted the statutory provision made; and whether he will state what course it is intended to take with regard to financing the railway for the present.
    LORD CRANBORNE: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. In regard to the second, I propose shortly to introduce a Bill into the House to provide the further funds necessary for the service of the railway.
    MR. THOMAS BAYLEY: This session?
    LORD CRANBORNE: Yes, Sir.

    Supply of Army Horses.
    MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he has issued the leaflet giving to farmers and horse breeders the particulars of the type of horses required by the War Office; and, if not, will he state when he proposes to do so.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. HANBURY, Preston): The total number of horses required annually by the War Office will not, I am informed, be more than 2,500, of which, roughly, about 1,000 will he bought in Ireland and about 1,500 in Great Britain. That being so, I do not think that the question is of any great interest to the British farmer and horse-breeder.

    Island of Lewis—Hospital Accommodation.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Secretary for Scotland is aware that

    595
    the Lewis District Committee report that hospitals are urgently needed at Swanabost, Ness, and Leurbost Lochs, Island of Lewis, but that the requisite funds cannot be raised owing to the public health maximum rate of assessment of 1s. per £ having already been reached; and will he say whether he can see his way to render assistance in the matter.
    THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire): As the hon. Member is aware the Congested District Board is not empowered to make grants for such objects. The Secretary for Scotland has no funds at his disposal for these purposes.
    MR. WEIR: But will the right hon. Gentleman make it his business to see that provision is made against this state of things?
    [No answer was returned.]

    Island of Lewis Fisheries.
    MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the attention of the Secretary for Scotland has been called to a petition to the King signed by over 2,000 crofters, cottars, fishermen, and others of the Island of Lewis, urging amongst other matters that a fast steaming gunboat should be stationed off the Island of Lewis for the purpose of protecting the interests of the line fishermen against trawlers within the three miles limit; and will the Secretary for Scotland endeavour to meet the desire of the petitioners.
    MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: No intimation of such a petition has as yet reached the Secretary for Scotland.

    Volunteers and Richmond Park.
    SIR GILBERT PARKER: I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Hunts, as representing the First Commissioner of Works, whether the Government have decided to set apart increased areas of Richmond Park for Volunteer drill and manœuvres.
    MR. AILWYN FELLOWES: The First Commissioner is permitted by the Ranger to say that he will favourably consider applications made by the Volunteers for
    596
    permission to drill over extended areas of Richmond Park, provided that the nature of the manœuvres is not such as to interfere unduly with the enjoyment of the Park by the public. Commanding officers of Volunteer battalions desiring to exercise their men in Richmond Park, must make their applications through the General Commanding the Home District.
    SIR GILBERT PARKER: Should application be made at once by Volunteers?
    MR. AILWYN FELLOWES: Yes, I believe so.

    Palace Yard Lighting Arrangements.
    MR. JOHN ELLIS: I beg to ask the hon. Member for North Hunts, as representing the First Commisioner of Works, whether his attention has been drawn to the inferior quality of the gas and the imperfect lighting of New Palace Yard and the other immediate precincts of the Houses of Parliament; and whether this can be improved.
    MR. AILWYN FELLOWES: The question of lighting of the New Palace Yard and the precincts of the Houses of Parliament is engaging the attention of the First Commissioner, and it is hoped that an improvement may be effected.

    Ireland—North-West Assize Circuit.
    THE MARQUESS OF HAMILTON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, having regard to the public inconvenience and expense caused by holding the Winter Assizes for the northwest counties in Belfast, arrangements can be made for holding a separate Winter Assize for the north-west counties in Londonderry or some other suitable town in the North-West Circuit.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON, Londonderry, N.): At, the request of my right hon. friend I will reply to this Question. The existing arrangements, under which Winter Assizes are each year held in one town in each of the four provinces of Ireland has, on the whole, worked well and given general satisfaction. Any public inconvenience or expense resulting

    597
    from it would, I apprehend, be increased rather than diminished by splitting up the several provinces into two or more Winter Assize Counties, while the interests of the administration of justice would undoubtedly suffer. The number of prisoners from the north-west counties of Ulster tried at the last Winter Assizes at Belfast was sixteen, which was about the average—a number scarcely sufficient to require a separate Winter Assizes to deal with. I would also point out to my noble friend that as Derry city is the only county borough in those northwest counties, unless the Winter Assizes were held there permanently, a most objectionable course in such a circumscribed venue, it would be necessary at intervals much more frequent than at present, to inflict on the jurors of the north-west counties at large the great inconvenience of assembling in midwinter in some of the county towns to dispose of the business. As the convenience of jurors is, next to the administration of justice, the most important matter to be considered, I don't think any change should be made until the general body of the jurors of the north-west counties have had an opportunity of considering it.
    THE MARQUESS OF HAMILTON: Have you consulted the High Court judges on this matter?
    MR. ATKINSON: I do not think it is a matter for them. It is rather one for the Executive.

    Lough Gara Eel Fishery.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to .ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he has received a complaint from the proprietor of an eel fisherery at Lough Gara, near Boyle, as to his having suffered a loss of £60 during the last two years owing to the floods caused by the drainage operations carried out by the Congested Districts Board on the Dillon estate; and whether he can state what compensation the Board intend to award him for the loss he has sustained.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM, Dover): The Congested Districts Board made inquiry into
    598
    the matter of this complaint and were satisfied that the drainage operations had not had the effect stated. The Board therefore declined to pay compensation.
    MR. TULLY: Cannot this man be afforded an opportunity of giving evidence at the investigation?
    MR. WYNDHAM: The investigation has been made.

    Tramways (Ireland) Acts.
    MR. O'DOHERTY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the Government will circulate amongst Members the Report of the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland on The Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1902; and whether the Government intend in the coming Session to codify and amend the Tramways (Ireland) Acts, 1860 to 1900.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The Report to which the hon. Member apparently refers is an inter-Departmental Report which it would be contrary to the invariable practice to publish. I cannot give an undertaking in respect of next session.

    Examinations for Irish Local Governmen Auditors.
    MR. O'DOHERTY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the standard of examination for temporary auditors under the Irish Local Government Board has been raised during the past two years; whether all candidates who fail at one examination get a second nomination for a subsequent examination; and, if not, will he state what rule or standard guides the Local Government Board in deciding who are to get a second nomination and examination.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The standard of examination has not been raised during the past two years, so far as I am aware. The selection of fitting persons to receive nominations is considered de novo when occasion arises for a new examination. There is no presumption in favour of giving a nomination to a candidate who has failed, to the prejudice of others who have never had a chance of qualifying. On the other hand, failure does not necessarily constitute disqualification.

    Carrick-on-Shannon Gaol.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what terms the Prisons Board would be prepared to hand over the disused prison at Carrick-on-Shannon to the Leitrim Agricultural and Technical Committee for the purpose of carrying out a remunerative local industry in the district.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The Prisons Board, subject to the consent of the Treasury, is prepared to hand over this prison to the County Council, provided that the Council supplies suitable accommodation for prisoners awaiting trial. The Board is already in communication with the county authority in the matter.

    Longford and Leitrim Fair Rent Applications.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of applications to fix fair rents at present pending in the counties of Longford and Leitrim for the first and second term rents; and when the next sub-Commission Courts will be held in these counties.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Twenty-two and 185 in Longford, and fifty-two and 186 in Leitrim. A sub-Commission will sit at Manorhamilton, Co. Leitrim, on the 11th and 12th instant. No date has yet been fixed for the next sitting of a sub-Commission in Longford; but a list of pending cases from that county is in preparation and will shortly be published.

    Irish Dispensary Medical Service.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the county Waterford the medical men have combined not to accept any position as dispensary medical officer at a less salary than £200 per year; and whether, in view of the inconvenience that has recently arisen at elections of doctors in that county, will he state what steps the Government propose to take to ameliorate the position of dispensary medical officers in Ireland.
    MR. WYNDHAM: It appears that a resolution to the effect indicated in the
    600
    first part of the Question was passed by the Waterford Medical Association in September. In reply to the second inquiry, I do not think I can usefully add to my reply to the similar Question put to me by the hon. Member on Thursday last. †
    MR. TULLY: Cannot the right hon. Gentleman take steps to raise the salaries of these people to something higher than the wages of mechanics?
    MR. WYNDHAM: That is a matter which cannot be dealt with by way of Question and Answer. There are many points to be considered, including the burden on the poor ratepayers.

    Local Government (Ireland) Act.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state when it is proposed to proceed with the Local Government (Ireland) (No. 2) Bill.
    MR. WYNDHAM: I have already referred to a statement made by the Prime Minister in this matter. The hon. Member must see that it is impossible to interrupt the proceedings on the Committee stage of the Education Bill.
    MR. TULLY: Will the right hon. Gentleman be prepared to go on with this Bill after the guillotine has fallen on the Education Bill?
    [No answer was returned.]

    The Brussels Convention.
    MR. ALEXANDER CROSS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury when the House will have an opportunity of considering the Brussels Convention on the Sugar Bounties question.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): In answer to my hon. friend, I have to repeat the statement of policy which I have already made. I hope to take the discussion on the Sugar Convention on Monday, the 24th inst.
    † See page 275.

    London Street Traffic—Proposed Royal Commission.
    MR. BRYCE (Aherdeen, S.): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, having regard to the increasing congestion of traffic in the streets of London, and to the need for more rapid modes of transit between distant parts, His Majesty's Government will Consider the desirability of instituting an inquiry, by Royal Commission or otherwise, into the means of locomotion and transportation in London on and beneath the surface, including the better regulation of vehicular traffic, the possibility of appropriating certain thoroughfares to certain kinds of traffic, the means of facilitating the construction of electric tramways along, or immediately beneath, the streets, and the steps to be taken for creating a properly arranged and conveniently inter-connected system of deep-level electric railways. In putting this Question, may I explain that it is not intended by it to suggest that such an inquiry should in any way supersede any ordinary inquiries before Committees of the House specially appointed to consider the question of particular Bills. It is meant to lay down the outlines of a scheme, and especially to consider the question of deep-level railways.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think that the subject to which the right hon. Gentleman refers is one of the first importance, not merely for the metropolis, but for the country at large. The only hesitation I have in giving an affirmative reply to the interrogatory on the Paper is lest a Royal Commission should have the effect of unduly delaying necessary steps, but I will consider the matter, and I think, in all probability, a Royal Commission would he the best course.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that the terms of reference to any Royal Commission will provide for a very important matter not mentioned at all in the Question—namely, how the capital for these ideal schemes is to be obtained?
    [No answer was returned.]

    The Cunard Agreement.
    MR. ALEXANDER CROSS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury when
    602
    the agreement with the Cunard Company will be placed upon the Table; and when the House will have an opportunity of considering its terms and policy.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not yet in a position to say when the agreement with the Cunard Company will be ready for presentation. It involves a great many details, and the necessary alterations in the Company's articles of association would require the sanction of the shareholders before the agreement is finally approved.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Does that answer apply to the agreement with the Atlantic Steam Trust, or can that he laid at an earlier date?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not sure that it would be expedient to lay one without the other. They are very closely bound together.

    The Indian Budget.
    MR. WEIR: I wish ask the First Lord of the Treasury when an opportunity will be given to resume the debate on the Indian Budget?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I should be sorry to prophesy on that subject.

    Tunbridge Wells Telephone System.
    MR. LOUGH: I wish to ask the Postmaster General whether his attention has been called to a secret agreement prepared by the National Telephone Company with regard to the purchase of the municipal telephone system of Tunbridge Wells, which has been approved by the Town Clerk without the consent or knowledge of the Council of Tunbridge Wells or of the ratepayers, and which may be ratified tomorrow with the Postmaster General's consent; and whether, in view of the extraordinary circumstances under winch the agreement was procured, he will undertake to notify to the Council that he will withhold his consent to the proposed transfer.
    THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.): No application has yet been made

    603
    to me by the Corporation of Tunbridge Wells on this subject. Until such an application is made, and until I am in possession of the Council's reasons for making it, I do not propose to express .any opinion on the subject.
    MR. LOUGH: I wish now to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House to call the attention of the House to the subject as a definite matter of urgent public importance, seeing that the right hon. Gentleman declines to say that he will withhold his consent.
    MR. SPEAKER: I do not think I can accept the Motion. There appears to be at present a dispute between the Town Council and the Town Clerk, about a contract with the Company, and it is not a matter of public administration at all. As soon as the application is brought before the Post Office they will have to inquire into these matters. At present the question is only as I have described it.
    MR. LOUGH: May I point out with very great respect that this is a very urgent matter. It is entirely unprecedented in the history of municipalities in this country. The transfer will be completed tomorrow if no action is taken.
    MR. SPEAKER: There has been nothing completed or done as far as any public department is concerned. An arrangement, the hon. Member says, has been made between a Company and a Corporation without the authority of the Corporation. The Town Clerk has no authority to bind the Corporation.
    MR. LOUGH: There are other steps to be taken.
    MR. SPEAKER: I cannot accept the Motion for Adjournment.

    BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
    MR. DALZIEL: In view of the Motion shortly to be put for the suspension of the Twelve o'clock Rule, may I ask the Prime Minister how late he proposes to ask the House to sit, if the Closure Resolution is not disposed of at a reasonable hour.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I trust the House will come to a decision on this question at a reasonable hour, as has been done on previous occasions.

    A QUESTION OF ORDER.
    MR. CHAPLIN: I wish to put to you, Sir, a question on a point of order. If, on the Amendment of the Leader of the Opposition, you put the Motion that all words after "That" stand part of the Question, it will preclude the discussion of the other Amendments dealing with details, and I beg, therefore, to ask whether you will so put the Amendment of the Leader of the Opposition to the Motion of the Leader of the House, to be moved later on, as not to exclude other Amendments on points of detail of which notice has also been given. There are two exact precedents for putting it in that way.
    MR. SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman told me just now that he proposed to ask this Question, but I think I can answer what my course should be. Ordinarily speaking, Amendments are not reserved on a Resolution about the business of the House. On the first occasion on which a Resolution of this kind was proposed, that is on the Crimes Act of 1887, a debate, or rather a conversation, took place on the question respecting whether Amendments as to details could be reserved. On the first Amendment of the Resolution proposing to leave out all the words after "That," the question arose whether other Amendments should be reserved, and, after considerable conversation, Mr Speaker Peel determined to put the Question so as to reserve those Amendments. That course was followed, also, on the Home Rule Bill, and the only other occasion which arose was on the Evicted Tenants (Ireland) Act, 1894. I think I am right in saying that there were there a number of Amendments as to details, but no general Amendment. Following those precedents, and without making any precedent as to ordinary Resolutions, not of this very exceptional character, I shall follow the same course, and reserve these Amendments.

    NEW MEMBER SWORN.
    Austin Taylor, esquire, for the borough of Liverpoool (East Toxteth Division).

    SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE (EXEMPTION FROM THE STANDING ORDER).
    (2.43.) Motion made, and Question put, "That the consideration of business relating

    605
    to the Education (England and Wales) Bill (Procedure) if under discussion at twelve o'clock this night be not interrupted

    The House divided:—Ayes, 268; Noes, 92. (Division List No. 495.)

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Dewar, Sir T.R.(Tower Hamiets

    Hope, J.E. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Dickinson, Robert Edmond

    Horner, Frederick William

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Hoult, Joseph

    Ark wright, John Stanhope

    Dickson-Poymler, Sir John P.

    Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Arrol, Sir William

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Doughty, George

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Bain, Colonel James Robert

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

    Kemp, George

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

    Baldwin, Alfred

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Keswick, William

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J.(Manch'r

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Kimber, Henry

    Balfour, Capt, C. B. (Hornsey

    Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart

    Lameton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Balfour Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

    Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

    Barry. Sir Francis T. (Windsor

    Faber, Edmund B, (Hants, W.)

    Lawson, John Grant

    Bartley, George C. T.

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Lecky, Rt. Hon William Edw. H

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Fardell, Sir T. George

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Beresford, Lord Charles William

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Leigh Bennett, Henry Currie

    Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

    Fergusson. Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Bignold, Arthur

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Lockie, John

    Bigwood, James

    Finch, George H.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A.R

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Bond, Edward

    Fisher. William Hayes

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

    Boulnois, Edmund

    Fison, Frederick William

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Boustield, William Robert

    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A Algernon

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Blowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

    Flannery, Sir Fortesque

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

    Bowles, T. Gibson(King's Lynn

    Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Lucas, Reginald. J.(Portsmouth

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Flower, Ernest

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Forster, Henry William

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Brown. Alexander H. (Shropsh.

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Macliver, David (Liverpool)

    Brymer, William Ernest

    Gardner, Ernest

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Bull, William James

    Garfit, William

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

    M'Calmont, Col. J.(Antrim. E.)

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Butcher, John George

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc

    Majendie, .James A. H.

    Campbell, Rt.Hn J.A. (Glasgow

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Malcolm, Ian

    Carew, James Laurence

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Carlile, William Walter

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn, W.F.

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Greene, Sir EW (B'ryS Edm'nds

    Maxwell, W.J.H (Dundriesshire

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

    Greene, Henry D.(Shrewshury)

    Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

    Cavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

    Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton

    Cayzer, Sir Charles William

    Gretton, John

    Milvain, Thomas

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Chamberlain Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

    Groves, James Grimble

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

    Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A (Worc.

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

    Chapman, Edward

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Morgan David, J (Walthamstow

    Charrington, Spencer

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

    Morrison, James Archibald

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

    Mount, William Arthur

    Cochrane, Hon.Thos. H.A. E.

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Coddington, Sir William

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Murray, RtHn A. Graham (Bute

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Myers, William Henry

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Healv, Timothy Michael

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Corbett, T. L. (Down. North)

    Heaton, John Henniker

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway,N)

    Cox,rwin Edward Bainbridge

    Helder, Augustus

    O'Doherty, William

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Denny, Colonel

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Perin, John

    under the Standing Order (Sittings of the House)."—(Mr.A.J. Balfour)

    Percy, Earl

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Valentia, Viscount

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Vincent, Col. Sir CEH. (Sheffield

    Pilkigton, Lieut.-Col. Richard

    Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Platt-Higgns, Frederick

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Walrond, Rt. Hn Sir Willham H.

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Wanklyn, James Leslie

    Purvis, Robert

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Pym C. Guy

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Randles, John S.

    Smith, H C (North' mb. Tyneside

    Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton

    Rankin. Sir James

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm

    Rattigan, Sir William Henry

    Spear, Joint Ward

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Wilson-Todd, Win. H. (Yorks.

    Ridley. Hon M. W. (Stalybridge

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Ridley. S. Forde (Bethnal Green

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

    Ritchie Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Stroyan John

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C.B. Stuart-

    Roberts. Samuel (Sheffield)

    Strut Hon. Charles Hedley

    Wylie, Alexander

    Robertson. Herbert (Hackney)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Wyndham, Rt. Bon. George

    Rolleston. Sir John F. L.

    Talbot, Rt Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Rothschild. Hon. Lionel Walter

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Yerhurgh, Robert Armstrong

    Round. Rt. Hon. James

    Thornton, Percy M

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Rutherford, John

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Tuke, Sir John Batty

    Sir Alexander Acland

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Tully, Jasper

    Hood and Mr. Anstruther

    NOES.

    Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

    Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William

    Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

    Allen. Charles P. (Glonc. Stroud

    Harwood, George

    Runciman, Walter

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Shackleton, David James

    Brigg, John

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Burt, Thomas

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Spencer, Rt Hn. C.R. (Northants

    Buxton. Sydney Charles

    Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Caldwell, James

    Labouchere, Henry

    Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

    Cameron, Robert

    Lambert, George

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Langley, Batty

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Leese, Sir Joseph. F. (Accrington

    Thomas, J A. (Glamorgan, Gower

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Leng, Sir John

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Levy, Maurice

    Tomkinson, James

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

    Lloyd-George, David

    Toulmin, George

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Lough, Thomas

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Dilke, Rt. Bon. Sir Charles

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

    Ure, Alexander

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Wason, Eugene

    Edwards, Frank

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Weir, James Galloway

    Ellis, John Edward

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Evans. Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Norton, Captain Cecil William

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Fenwick, Charles

    Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

    Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

    Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Priestley, Arthur

    Grant, Corrie

    Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Rigg, Richard

    Mr. William M 'Arthur

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

    and Mr. Causton.

    EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (PROCEDURE).
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND THE FIRST LORI) OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): No Leader of the House can rise in his place and propose a Resolution on the lines of that which I have put down upon the Paper with any feeling of satisfaction.
    608
    I believe it to be a necessity. I think before I sit clown I shall be able to convince the House that it is a necessity; but I frankly admit that to me, at all events, it is a most unpleasant necessity. It amounts to an admission that our ordinary procedure is insufficient to carry on the business of the House. It amounts to an admission that our

    609
    Rules—great as are the changes effected in those Rules since closure was first proposed by Mr. Gladstone twenty years ago—that our Rules, with all those changes, are not sufficient to enable this House to deal with the legislative work which is put before it. That would be an insignificant and unimportant admission if the legislative work put before it by the Government in the course of the present session were in any way excessive in amount, but, whatever may be thought of the merits of the Bills that we have brought to the notice of the House, whatever may be thought in particular of the Bill to which special reference is made in this Resolution, I think every candid critic will admit that we have in this session thrown no undue or excessive legislative burden upon the Members of this House. And if that be so, as I think it is, it must be a matter of great regret to all interested in our Parliamentary procedure that the House is incapable of dealing with even that modest burden without some such exceptional procedure as that which I am about to suggest. Now, Sir, I do not propose to deal at any length with many of the subsidiary, though important, arguments which, I have no doubt, will figure largely in the debate which is to succeed. As regards precedent, it is not perhaps necessary to do more than remind the House of what you, Mr. Speaker, have already reminded us this afternoon—that for Closure Resolutions of this character there are three precedents. There is the precedent of the Crimes Act of 1887, there is the precedent of the Home Rule Bill of 1893, and there is the precedent of the Evicted Tenants Act of 1894.
    MR. JOHN MORLEY: And the Special Commission.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am reminded by the right hon. Gentleman that there is a fourth precedent—namely, that relating to the Parnell Commission. I should hardly have thought that that was on all fours, although I have not refreshed my memory with the details; but I will ask the House, if they wish to decide the question by precedent, to confine their attention to the three cases winch Mr. Speaker has already mentioned. I May remind the House that closure by
    610
    compartments was moved in the case of the Crimes Act when that Bill had been in Committee for fifteen days. It was moved in the case of the Home Rule Bill of 1893 when that Bill had been in Committee twenty-eight days. In the case of the Evicted Tenants Bill, it was moved when that Bill had been in Committee two days. I have now the painful task of moving the closure in regard to the Education Bill when that measure has been in Committee, not fifteen days, not twenty-eight days, and not two days, but no less atilt thirty-eight days. [An HON. MEMBER: "Not full days."] I have not worked out the hours in each case: I am taking the rough estimate, and I think it will be found not far from the truth. So much for the bare precedents which we have to guide us.
    Then, Sir, I come to an argument which, I think, is perhaps less relevant to the issue than the question of precedents, but which is not without its importance; and that is, the number of the minority who have throughout these prolonged debates on the Education Bill been criticising and resisting the proposals of the Government. In the cases of the Crimes Act, the Home Rule Bill, and the Evicted Tenants Bill, at all events, it was a great contest between the two parties in the House—the Government of the day and the Opposition of the day; and I may remind the House that the Opposition of the day were far more near to equality with the Government of the day than are the Opposition at present. But the opposition to this Bill is not conducted by the Opposition as a whole. I have had a calculation made, and I find that of the persons voting in the various divisions on this Bill the average against the Government amounted to 29 per cent., or less that, one-third, of those present. Every one who has followed the discussions on this Bill knows that, though the Opposition has been vigorous and effective, still it has not represented the great body of opinion on the other side of the House. [Cries of "Oh," and all HON. MEMBER: What about the Irish Members?] The figures which I have read out are enough to prove it. But, though I think it desirable to bring that fact before the attention of the House, do not let it be supposed that I wish to dwell on it. I ant perfectly ready to admit that the minority, although small, is a very important one, and that it contains within its ranks a

    611
    great body of the best English Opposition opinion. I do not wish to undervalue its strength, vigour, or ability; though its numbers do not compare with the numbers of the Opposition who fought the three Bills to which reference has already been made.
    The next argument, which I mean to mention for the purpose of not dwelling upon it, is the argument based upon obstruction. I do not mean to dwell upon that, because my main contention is wholly irrespective of the merits or demerits of the persons who have been conducting the Opposite. If I were to say the Gentlemen opposite had been obstructing the Bill, it would mean that I intended to pass some serve censure on their Parliamentary conduct, and that is wholly irrelevant to my case. In point of view of temper and mutual courtesy, I think the Opposition have very greatly distinguished themselves. Considering the feeling which, if not aroused, have, at all events, been expressed outside the walls of this House, the moderation of tone which has habitually characterised our debates is extremely creditable to the House of Commons. Then, I might dwell upon the fact that this Bill is only a Bill of twenty clauses; and of those clauses I do not believe that there are more than four or five that can be described as controversial. [Cries of "Oh"] I take as an indication of what is a controversial Clause the Amendment on the Paper in the name of the Leader of the Opposition, and I venture to say that, if four or five Clauses were eliminated from the Bill, it would be found that the Clauses would not have provoked any prolonged discussion at all, and that we might very readily, and without any great expenditure of Parliamentary time, have passed the Bill so emasculated into law. Therefore, though other Clauses have been discussed, it is really four or five that are controversial. If that is so, does it not throw a very strong light upon the Parliamentary situation in which we find ourselves? After thirty-eight days in Committee, we still find ourselves a considerable distance from the end of the Committee stage of the Bill, and with the whole of the Report stage of the Bill before us, on which every Amendment would be in order which we have discussed in Committee.
    612
    Sir, these arguments, which I have briefly touched upon, are all relevant and all important; but they are not the arguments on which I wish mainly to rely in asking the House to decide in favour of this Resolution. If I could not give other and stronger reasons for this Motion, I am not sure that these reasons would not be sufficient. If the argument which I am about to give be sufficient, then these other arguments, however important, may be regarded as to a certain extent superfluous. I endeavour honestly to look at this question quite apart from the particular controversy on which we are engaged. I remember dealing with the Rules over which we spent a considerable portion of our time earlier in the Session; and I remember that I advised the Opposition in their criticisms never to forget that they might some day be sitting on the right hand of the Speaker; and I advised those who supported the Government never to forget that the time would come when they would be sitting on the left of the Speaker; and it was only by every man putting himself in that imaginative position that he could give a fair verdict on the question. That advice I beg to repeat, and even to put in a stronger form. I would ask Members of the House to withdraw themselves in imagination from any special view of the merits or demerits of this Bill, and as to the convenience or inconvenience to which they themselves are personally put, and to say whether it is not absolutely necessary, after a Bill has been debated at the length which has characterised our debates on this Bill, that some step of the kind I am proposing should be taken. We must, as Members of Parliament, whether we be Conservatives or Radicals, admit that Parliament cannot allow itself to be rendered absolutely ineffectual and impotent merely by the expenditure of time in discussion. The only question we have to ask ourselves is—what is the best method of giving to ourselves, or restoring to ourselves, that efficiency which is absolutely necessary if this is to be not merely a Chamber for discussion, but a Chamber also for legislation? I have given, I need hardly say, a great deal of thought to the various problems which have come to a head in this Resolution. These problem have occupied

    613
    my thoughts—as I doubt not they have occupied the thoughts of all Members interested in Parliamentary procedure—not merely during the recent months, but for many years past. What are the possible remedies which can be suggested for the position of ineffectual impotence which I have just described? My right hon. friend the Member for the Sleaford Division, who is to speak tonight, has always had a strong personal leaning towards what he calls personal closure. He seems to think that the House of Commons can deal with this species of congestion by taking each offender in turn, and dealing summarily with him; and so by this process of expurgation gradually reducing our debates within reasonable limits. I know he holds that view with great earnestness; but I do not believe that it is practicable; and I am certain that, if my right hon. friend had watched this education debate as I have watched it, even he would come to the conclusion that it was impracticable. There has been no personal abuse of the rights of debate to be taken notice of by the House. I remember the, right hon. Gentleman opposite, the Member for West Monmouthshire, saying, at an earlier stage of these debates, that they had been con ducted on what he called "the Report principle"—that is to say, that hardly any Member had taken advantage of the right which we all possses in Committee of speaking more than once. Broadly speaking, that is a perfectly accurate statement. I do not say that, no speeches were delivered which I thought irrelevant, or that no Amendments were moved which I thought unnecessary. But the idea that you could have remedied this particular disease by any form of personal closure would never suggest itself to any person who had watched these debates.
    I put that remedy aside. The second remedy is whether we should use the powers of the closure which the standing orders give us in such a manner that debate may be hurried on, that trifling and irrelevant Amendments may be excluded, and the general progress of the discussion may be so accelerated that exceptional and drastic measures may become unnecessary. I have always maintained that our closure rules under the Standing Orders are most effectual, and work excellently, for First, Second, and Third Readings or
    614
    Resolutions, but that they are utterly ineffectual to deal with anything like the Committee or the Report stages of a Bill, in which it is open to the ingenuity of any hon. Member to find some alternative proposal to that of the Government, or to suggest some modification of the proposal of the Government. That cannot be dealt with effectually, I fear—I have always held so—under our existing closure rules. It will be admitted that I have done my very best to use those rules so as to enable the House within reasonable compass to deal with the controversies raised by this measure, and what has been the result? I have not succeeded inn my effort. The only Parliamentary result I know is that the hon. Member wino cheered ironically a moment ago has given notice of an Amendment, which he has placed on the Paper, which seems to me to contain a not obscure attack on the Chair, and certainly indicated that, in his opinion, even the modest and moderate efforts which I have made to expedite business were to be branded and characterised as an interference with the rights of free discussion.
    MR. JOHN ELLIS: If this Motion on my part was meant as an attack on the Chair, it certainly would have been put in the plainest possible terms.
    MR. A. BALFOUR: I confess I thought the terms were perfectly plain. I saw no ambiguity about them. I therefore ask those who say that our existing methods of expediting business are sufficient, to cast their eyes back on the experience of the last month, and I think they will come to the conclusion that I have come to, that these rules are, for the Committee stage of a Bill, quite ineffectual and insufficient in the case of a measure fought as this measure has been fought.
    What is the next remedy which the ingenuity of man can suggest? The next remedy is that of all-night sittings. I do not deny that all-night sittings, or a series of all-night sittings, may be a necessary, though certainly most unhappy form of expediting Parliamentary business. Let no one pretend, however, when they are praising all-night sittings as a mode of expediting

    615
    Parliamentary business, that it either promotes the dignity of the House or increases the freedom of debate. It does, in reality, neither one nor the other. What it does do is that it enables us, under our existing rules, and without some exceptional modifications such as I am now proposing, to force through in the teeth of a reluctant minority some particular stage or particular clauses of a measure. But the objections to it are quite obvious. The strain put on Members is very great; the strain put on the officers of the House is even greater. To pretend for a moment that discussions carried on under that particular species of pressure are equivavalent to the free debate of this House at reasonable and seasonable hours is, of course, an extravagant proposition which no one would defend. In this case it would be wholly ineffectual. It might be possible—I doubt it—to finish by this method of a series of all-night sittings, by the application of physical torture in the form of want of sleep, the remaining Clauses in the Committee stage of this Bill, for these Clauses are of a kind which do not excite much heat or passion. But when you have done that you have the Report stage, and on the Report stage every Amendment raised on the Committee stage can be repeated; and I believe it is neither physically possible nor morally desirable to attempt such a terrific process of forcible debate, as to carry ail the remaining stages by requiring Gentlemen who oppose and support the Government to sit up all night in an endeavour to make progress—to sit all night, night after night, in order to expedite business. I reject, therefore, all these measures. There are two others, and only two, which occur to me as possible. One is, that we might carry on this session to an indefinite period, to January, February, or March, and to continue all through these weary months the discussion on the Education Bill. I do not know that any one is going to propose that as a proper method of dealing with the situation. I have given it a great deal of thought, and so great is my aversion to any form of closure by compartments that I abandon it, I frankly admit, with the utmost reluctance. A plan of that sort disorganises the whole Parliamentary
    616
    chronology. I do not know whether it would bring us into conflict with the law as to the annual Estimate or Supplies, but I am sure it is fraught with great inconvenience, for it absolutely destroys the rights of private Members so long as it lasts. In addition to that, it utterly disorganises the work of the succeeding session. Therefore, for these and other reasons with which I need not trouble the House, and on the whole, though not without hesitation and reluctance, I find myself forced to abandon the idea of recommending that course to the House. There remains only one other plan, and that is the plan known as "carrying over." I have always had a weakness for that plan. I am quite aware that I stand almost alone in that. [An HON. MEMBER: "No, no, many of us would agree."] I remember a Committee of which I was, if not the chairman, at least the labouring oar on behalf of the Government, and I drew up a Report. We had a long fight over that Report. In it I recommended a plan for carrying over, and I contrived to carry that Report by a bare Party majority. In every division there were against me the right hon. member for West Monmouth, Mr. Gladstone, and, I think, the right hon. Member for the Montrose Burghs; at all events the whole strength of the Opposition on a very strong Parliamentary Committee was against me; and whenever I have further suggested this plan of carrying over to my own friends on this side of the House it has been received with cold disapproval—that phrase would be too mild. I have therefore come to the conclusion that, whether it would be a good plan or a bad plan, it is not a plan which is ever likely to receive favour from any body of the House, or to become embodied as part of our ordinary machinery in the Standing Orders. I confess there is one argument against the plan of carrying over which I did not realise at the period to which I am referring, but which has been borne in upon me by reflection and experience since, and it is this. I am not sure that the character of this House could really survive a discussion on the trumpery details—even the most important Bill has its trumpery details—of a Bill extending not merely week after week, but month after month, and extending to session after session.

    617
    I believe we should get so sick of the proceedings, and of ourselves, and the country would get so sick of us, that we should sink under general derision or personal weariness, and therefore, I have to admit that my own views have on this subject undergone some change. Even if I thought I could carry such a proposal, which I am convinced I could not, I should not, after the experience which I have described, press it with the same youthful enthusiasm which I once possessed.
    I believe that I have now exhausted every conceivable plan by which the House would be enabled to do that which everybody must admit it must do—namely, to carry an important Bill in a session which has not been unduly crowded by other work. That is the minimum which the House allows itself to do. But if every other method by which that end can be attained is to be abandoned, we are driven back reluctantly, sorrowfully, but inevitably, on the plan which I now have to propose to the House. Before asking the House to agree with that proposition, I would ask whether we have been unreasonable, either in the length of time we have allowed this Bill to go on in Committee, or in the general distribution of the business of the Session. I will remind the House of a calculation which I laid before it when discussing the Rules, and in which I pointed out that so long as the House was determined to spend as much time as it habitually spends on the King's Speech, on Supply, and all other financial arrangements, upon private Members' time, even as curtailed by the new Rules, and upon the other business absolutely necessary for conducting the business of the country, it did not leave more than six weeks for new Government legislation—I exclude the Budget, of course—but in a normal session for ordinary legislation I think that too small. I think that the House ought to curtail its privileges of criticism in order to give more time to legislation, but I will not press that now. We shall have spent on the Committee stage alone of this Bill something like fifteen days more than those six weeks. Three weeks of Parliamentary time, more than all the time available for new legislation under the normal system, we will have actually spent before the Committee stage comes to an end,
    618
    in discussing the Committee stage alone of a single measure. Surely this is exhibiting far more patience than the Conservative Government did over the Crimes Act in 1887, or the Home Rule Government did in the Home Rule Bill in 1893, and certainly not going near the headlong impatience of the right hon. Member for Montrose, who came down and moved closure by compartments after, I think, two days of Committee on the Evicted Tenants Bill Surely we, who have gone on already thirty-eight days, have shown ample and long-suffering patience before applying the painful, drastic, but effectual remedy I have proposed.
    I hope, Sir, I have proved to the House that the Government had no alternative but to adopt the general policy which I have sketched out. But it may be asked, and I think it ought to be asked, whether this is the best machinery by which that general policy can be carried into effect. I frankly tell the House I do not think it is. I think there is something clumsy in closure by compartments. It is not an ideal form; but it is, however, the form consecrated, if I may use the word in such a connection, by past experience. If I had attempted to bring before the House any more elaborate scheme such as those which I have taken the trouble to compare, they would, I think, have had a right to ask for more time to consider it than I trust they will have on the present occasion, and I confess I am reluctantly compelled to the belief that what has been done hitherto, up to the present time, three times, and, after tonight's debate, will have been done four times, has not been done for the last time, and the House ought really to take into serious consideration, I think, some better machinery for dealing with a situation like the present. I therefore make no pretensions to perfection in the plan I have adopted. I can only say it is the plan adopted by my predecessors, and it is the plan which I would advise the House, all things considered, to employ for the present occasion. I asked hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House in a early part of my speech to imagine themselves in the place of Ministers sitting here, and then try and consider the position of the

    619
    minority of this House. I am perfectly aware that there may be friends of mine who, agreeing with the Government in their general policy, and ardently supporting them, as they have, in the debates over this Bill, nevertheless cannot help feeling some misgiving lest the precedent which we are using may be used against us. Well, Sir, I do not think they need entertain that fear, by which I by no means suggest that, if a Home Rule Government, a Government composed of hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, came into power, they would not employ closure by compartments, because I have very little doubt that under some circumstances they would, but I do not think their course would be rendered easier by the precedent we are setting tonight. But if they will promise not to employ closure by compartments until we have been thirty-eight days in Committee on some controversial measure, I think my hon. friends may be perfectly sure, in the first place, that the precedent will not be often used; and, in the second place, that, when used, it will be one which it will be practically impossible for the House of Commons, as a whole, to resist. We know by observation that they are perfectly prepared not to follow our precedent, but to follow their own, and the proceedings on the Evicted Tenants Bill will give a good deal of thought to those who fear that anything we may do tonight will facilitate the task which may fall upon our successors in office. Those Gentlemen have already shown how they are prepared to deal with a Bill after two nights in Committee, and if we are now showing to them and the country the kind of sacrifice which we in a majority are prepared to make of time and trouble in order to secure free debate for this House, the precedent we have set will not be one which will militate against ample discussion, but, on the contrary, will have precisely the opposite effect. I hope I have now shown the House, in no controversial spirit, without, I trust, raising any debates which are likely to excite passion, why it is that, as Leader of the House of Commons, responsible for the moment for the business of the House, I deem it necessary in the interests of the House that this Resolution should be
    620
    passed. I do not base it on the merits of the Bill we are now discussing; I do not base it on the demerits of the Opposition; I base it on the broad fact that Parliament has to do its work. That argument seems to me amply sufficient, and that argument is the one on which I rely in asking the House to support us on the present occasion. I beg to move.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Proceedings in Committee and on Report of the Education (England and Wales) Bill (including Proceedings on the Financial Resolution relating thereto), shall, unless previously disposed of, be brought to a conclusion at times and in the manner hereinafter mentioned:—
    "(a) The Proceedings in Committee on the remaining part of Clause 12, and on Clause 13, on Wednesday 12th November; (b) The Proceedings on Clauses 14,15, 16 and 17, on Thursday 13th November; (c) The Proceedings on Clauses 18, l9 and 20, and on the Committee Stage of the Financial Resolution, on Friday, 14th November; (d) The Proceedings on Report of the Financial Resolution, and. on the New Clause relating to the aid grant, on Monday, 17th November; (e) The Proceedings on the New Clauses relating to endowments, local authority's managers, and grouping, on Tuesday, 18th November; (f) The Proceedings on the New Clause relating to managers, and any other Government New Clauses, on Schedules, and any new Government Schedules, and any other Proceedings necessary to bring the Committee Stage to a conclusion, on Thursday, 20th November; (g) The consideration of the Report shall be appointed for Tuesday, 25th November; arid the Proceedings on Report on any New Clauses and on Amendments to Parts I. and II. of the Bill shall be brought to a conclusion on that day; (h) The Proceedings on Report on Amendments to Part III. of the Bill shall be brought to a conclusion on Thursday, 27th November; (i) The proceedings on the Report of the Bill shall be concluded on Friday, 28th November.
    "At 11 p.m. on the said days, or, if the day is a Friday, at 4.30 p.m., the Chairman or Speaker shall put forthwith the Question or Questions on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair, and shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on

    621
    any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice has been given, but no other Amendments, and on every Question necessary to dispose of the allotted Business.
    "In the case of new Clauses and Schedules, he shall put only the Question that such Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill.
    "Proceedings under this Order shall not he interrupted (except at an Afternoon Sitting at 7.30 p.m.) under the provisions of any Standing Order relating to Sittings of the House.
    "After the passing of this Order, on any day on which any proceedings on the Education (England and Wales) Bill stand as the first Order of the Day, no Dilatory Motion on the Bill, nor under Standing Order 17, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, shall be received unless moved by the Minister in charge of the Bill, and the Question on any such Motion shall be pot forthwith.
    "If Progress be reported, the Chairman shall put this Order in force in any subsequent sitting of the Committee."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
    SIR. H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I fully recognise, as every one must, the amiable and even philosophic tone in which the right hon. Gentleman has moved this Resolution, but I rise to move an Amendment which invites the House to decline to give its approval of the course which he proposes we shall take. I am sure of one thing—that the sentiment he expressed on this subject is shared by us all. I am sure there is in no part of the House a single man who regards a summary and forcible procedure of this kind otherwise than with repugnance. On the other hand, I am equally sure that there is no one, or almost no one, who does not adroit that there may be extreme, and urgent, and exceptional cases in which it may be necessary to use it. But before we are satisfied that any such course is not expedient only, but necessary (because it goes beyond expediency to the hounds of necessity) every Member ought to examine what is the nature—because it depends upon this—and I would even use another word, the texture—of the Bill before the House, what are the circumstances of its origin, what is the feeling regarding it, what is the urgency
    622
    of its passing, what will be the evil consequences of its delay, and, above all, whether there has been leading up to this incident of the day anything in the nature of obstruction—that is to say, of a deliberate determination to thwart and impede the progress of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman gives the go-by to this question of obstruction, but the whole of this machinery, so far as it has been applied, has been applied solely for pure obstruction. It is in obstruction it had its origin, and that is the mischief for which it is the cure, and therefore it is the more necessary for the right hon. Gentleman, as he abandons obstruction, to prove his case on other grounds. I have said that we all admit there must be exceptions, but I find that there are two notable authorities in the House who do not admit any necessity for the Rule at all. There were two opinions expressed on the occasion so often referred to—that of the Home Rule Bill. One of these authorities said:
    "I do not come here to oppose this Resolution as a Unionist, but because I think it is absolutely inconsistent with the very elements of the life of a free debating assembly."
    It was, therefore, not because the Home Rule Bill was in itself so abominable, not because it was so dangerous to the Empire, or on any ground of that sort; it was apart altogether from the merits of the Bill that he opposed the Resolution as being inconsistent with the very elements of the life of a free debating assembly.
    "We are going," said this authority "to set up a precedent which for all time will impair the efficiency and cloud the honour of this assembly," and he went on to describe the. Resolution as "the wreck of the liberties of Parliament.'
    This was quite apart from, and irrespective of, any particular circumstances of the merits or demerits of the Bill to which the procedure was to be applied. The other high authority said:—
    "We are on a declining plane. The Government for very shame proposes to give us a month. The next Government will perhaps give us a week only."
    A prediction which has been most accurately fulfilled.
    Be sure of this,"
    the authority went on—
    "the tendency is constantly to diminish. You are on a fatal incline. I would say that a

    623
    Bill of this kind ought in no case, under no circumstances, under no stress, in no extremity, to be subjected to any curtailment of free debate."
    Those were the opinions of the present First Lord of the Treasury and the Secretary of State for the Colonies. And now the First Lord conies forward with a proposal identical with the one to which he then objected. I leave to him the task of reconciling his proceeding now with the opinions he then expressed.
    For my part, I take a much more moderate and reasonable view. We must contemplate that there may be cases of extreme urgency which demand this somewhat violent interference with the rights of minorities. But what is the case today? The right hon. Gentleman has given up the case so far as it is founded on obstruction, as well he may. The only obstruction I have observed was of a most casual, accidental, and genial kind. It proceeded from the benches opposite. On more than one occasion there appeared to be a little difficulty in marshalling the forces of the Government, and hon. Members opposite continued to debate on some small point, having a difficulty in adapting their countenances to the seriousness of the matter before the House; and they carried on the debate, if debate it could be called, until a member of the King's Household came in and told them in an audible voice that it was unnecessary to keep it up any longer. I make no objection whatever. On the contrary, they were doing, no doubt, a good public service. It must be so, because I observe that one of the hon. Members who took a leading part in that proceeding has promptly received a high honour from the Government.
    What has happened on this Bill? On both sides of the House Amendments have been moved and accepted and that reminds me to point out an extraordinary omission on the part of the right hon. Gentleman. He has said nothing of the nature of the Bill, or of its attendant circumstances Now, we found our whole case upon the nature of the Bill, and we say that these numerous Amendments would not have been necessary if the Bill had not been introduced in such an elementary-condition that it had to be patched and
    624
    mended in order that it might hold together at all. Obstruction! Why I venture to say that never has a Party, regarding a measure as obnoxious, so single-mindedly done so much to improve it. [MINISTERIAL laughter.] The Colonial Secretary, as usual, laughs.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.): Not as usual.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Have none of those Amendments, the discussion of which was so tedious and inconvenient, been adopted by the Government? Compare the condition of the Bill now—up to and including Clause 12—with its original form, and you will find at once a complete justification of all that has happened, and an overwhelming confirmation of my contention. Go back to the Home Rule Bill. The Opposition of those days were exerting all their ingenuity to ruin that Bill. But on this occasion my hon. friends, who are, many of them, experts in education, who are thorough masters of the subject, who know it in its practical working, have been doing their best to improve your Bill and make it more workable. Amendment after Amendment has been introduced by the Government to meet the views expressed by my hon. friends, and without being so effusively and submissively grateful as the right hon. gentleman expected, we at least acknowledge the fact.
    The right hon. gentleman says that Parliamentary institutions are on their trial, He made a speech in the City not long ago in which he said that these long debates were a discredit to the House of Commons, and that Parliament would not retain its position if they were allowed to continue. Now he speaks of Parliament, being ineffective and impotent. And what is his cure for the ineffectiveness and impotence of Parliament? It is to suspend the privileges of the House of Commons; it is to institute government by executive degree; it is to take away the powers of Parliament. That is how lie thinks he will increase the respect of the country for it. That is not the way at all. I think I shall be able by-and-bye to give some reasons that go far to account for

    625
    the condition of things which exist. Last night, at a festive scene, the right hon. gentleman again pleasantly described our debates. It seems to be a favourite topic with the right hon. Gentleman. He says we have had a great deal of local government, a great deal of religion, but very little of education. If that is so, why is it? Local government? Yes, because this Bill transgresses some of the most elementary principles of local government, because it brought, as originally introduced, confusion of the powers and duties of local bodies, because it abolishes—I am sorry I have to speak in the present tense—efficient local bodies, and imposes on other local bodies new and strange functions which they do not ask for, and which, on one hand and the other, they are declining to undertake. This Bill, which is to affect local government, high and low, throughout the country, leaves definitions undefined and boundaries unmarked. That is why there has been so much of local government in the debates. Then why have you heard so much about religion? Because the main purpose of a great part of this Bill is not the improvement of education, but the establishment of denominational teaching—a purpose religions, not educational. One denomination is to be quartered on the rates for teaching purposes, and the atmosphere of one religious sect is to be created and maintained in schools which we are still to call national. That is why you have heard so much about religious questions, and why you will continue to hear so much, unless one thing is done. If the right hon. Gentleman disclaims that that is the object of the Bill, let him sweep the parts I have referred to out of the Bill, and I promise him that in proportion as he does so, he will hear less of religion.
    Let us go back to the origin of this Bill, for in the case of a Bill so complicated, so thorny, so difficult, it is well to go back to its origin when it is intended to inflict this grievous blow on the privileges of Parliament on its account. Let us put aside the question of educational reform, and of the extension of higher education, especially of a scientific and technical kind. That is not a matter with which there is a
    626
    "ha' porth" of difference in the country; everybody is agreed on that. If you had introduced a Bill dealing with that subject, it would have gone through rapidly, with only such discussion as was necessary to make it work well. Could not that have been done without dabbling with elementary education? If Parliament has been brought to anything in the nature of an impasse, we must ask those who led us into it why they did it. We must ask the Government why they took up the subject of elementary education. They themselves evidently did not see the necessity for interfering much or soon with elementary education. They introduced Bills in 1899, 1890, and even in 1901—after the Cockerton decision had lopped off the top branches of the School Board system; but these three Bills did not touch elementary education. If it is said to have been necessary on the ground of educational efficiency, I have taken the trouble to get the latest Report of the Board of Education, and I find this on the subject of general efficiency:—
    "The general efficiency of public elementary schools throughout the country is maintained at a high level, and while there is still room for improvement in many schools, very few wholly fail to provide adequate instruction for the children attending them. During the year only one school had t he grant withheld on a second report of inefficiency under the conditions of Article 86 of the Code;" and soon.
    Do not let it be imagined that this is the optimistic view of some self-satisfied clerk in a public Department, who never sees anything beyond the walls of his office; this is signed by "Devonshire, president, and John E. Gorst, vice-president, of the Committee of Council on Education." Here is the highest authority that there was no urgent and clamant necessity for interfering with elementary education. It is easy to say what was the origin of the introduction into the Education Bill, which was wanted by the country, of all these provisions about elementary schools which were not wanted by the country. It was the demand of the Church party. There is no question about it. I have here circulars they sent out. Their attitude was, "Now or never. Let us take advantage of this great majority. Where shall we be if the election comes to turn on educational issues? Let us make hay while the 1900 South African sun still shines."

    627
    Now I come to an argument on today's proceedings which commends itself strongly, I know, to many of my friends, and certainly largely influences people outside—the argument that there has been no mandate for this Bill. I would say at once that I cannot carry this doctrine of a mandate to the full length to which it is pushed. I don't think we can constitutionally fetter the action of any Parliament which may at any time take into consideration the subject which it considers most needs consideration; but at the same time no one can doubt, and everyone knows, the altogether exceptional character of the last general election. I could quote a perfect anthology of the sayings of Ministers, but there is one I have here, so remarkable, that I think it is worth while quoting it. It is the most emphatic of all; and, being emphatic, the House will expect that I should say it comes from the Secretary of State for the Colonies. He proclaimed that Liberals might vote against their party at the election without any prejudice to their Liberal opinions. He said—
    "There had been a wonderful turnover of the mining vote in the North of England. Thousands and thousands of miners who had never voted Unionist before, who still called themselves Liberals and Radicals, had on this occasion supported the Unionist candidate. He did not say that they had changed their views. They were probably Liberal and Radical as before, and they would probably vote for Liberals and Radicals at the next election, but at this election they had voted for the Unionist candidate. Why had they done that? Because they saw that the issue at the present tune was not a question of domestic policy, such as Church Disestablishment or Liquor Prohibition, but a question of the existence of the Empire."
    How many of these votes would have been secured if the right how Gentleman had gone out telling them all, "Every vote given to a Unionist is a vote given against School Boards"?
    Up to that point I fully acknowledge the force of this view of the case. The Government are acting, I will not say with a false majority, but with a majority which was not elected on any subject such as this. It is well known, and I am not stating something that can be contradicted. But though that invalidates the power and authority of the Government and may hamper it very much, I do not go so far as to say that an absolutely fresh mandate is required for every great Bill that is to be introduced. What is the feeling of the country now? What evidence have we
    628
    of that? The right hon. Gentleman indulged in a little sceptical smile and a few sceptical words as to the real nature of the strong feeling which exists outside this House. But I can only say that I am certain of this—and I think most Members of the House on both sides know it—that you have raised the feeling of the Free Churchmen in this country to a warmth of fervour that we have never seen in our generation, and it will not do to put that away with a smile. The mass of them maybe poor and humble men, but they are the kind of men who for many generations have been accustomed to win in every battle in which they earnestly and seriously engaged. Then we have had lately half-a-dozen bye-elections since this Bill was introduced. So far as it goes, what does that test of public opinion show? In those six bye-elections the Liberal vote has gone up by 39 per cent., and the Government vote has gone down by 8 per cent.—not very encouraging to right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and not very favourable to the prospects of a peaceable and quiet and permanent settlement on these lines of this great educational question. My contention is that a Bill of this character requires the fullest and freeest discussion, because it is designed for a permanent settlement which affects closely the daily life of the people; it touches the conscience as well as political principle and opinion; and—another fact which is not to be forgotten—once it has passed through the House of Commons it will find its way to the statute book without much chance of emendation or alteration in its course.
    Now, would a few days more debate, a few days more delay, have been such a dreadful evil after all? [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh.] It would have been no evil to education. The schools which the high authorities I have quoted say are excellent, would have gone on all the same. Nothing would have interrupted them, and what evil would have come from it? Supposing there had been delay, or even postponement, what would have happened? So far as I am aware, one thing, and one thing only, would have happened. Inconvenience would have been imposed on Members of this House. These debates are, no doubt, irksome and wearisome, especially to those who do

    629
    not follow them closely, but something, after all, is due to the public interest. Moreover, is the right hon. Gentleman personally altogether free from blame? He devoted the early part of this year to the Procedure Rules, which again were mainly introduced to suit the comfort and convenience of hon. Members; and what has lie gained by them? He has got his dinner hour and his week-end, but I remember warning him that, so far as my own observation and experience, and that of others better qualified than myself to judge, went, his dinner hour at any rate would not conduce to the rapid passage of business; and I think he has found that to be so now.
    Mr. A. J. BALFOUR: Oh, no, distinctly not.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Well, you have not been able to keep your men here; but that is another matter. I am sure it has not increased the facility for business. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh."] At all events, here we were, plunged into these Rules, many of which are not yet passed, and many of them, of the most controversial kind, truncated and left half finished, though the best part of the Session was devoted to t hem. Then we have seen the extraordinary drafting and preparation of this Bill—the lacunce and slips and inconsistencies which the Government themselves found out, and which the less acute minds on this side of the House have also seen. There have been changes of mind throughout the whole proceedings. The right hon. Gentleman is very much struck by the fact that this is a twenty-clause Bill. He seems to measure a Bill V its clauses, but surely if ever there was a case in which von could say ponderanda, non numeranda, it should be in regard to the clauses of a Bill. Why, a ten-clause Bill, or, for what I know, a one-clause Bill, could send the House of Commons packing, and establish some sort of government by Cabinet in its place. How much time would it have taken to have gone on as we were going on? Everything was going quietly. It is true, as the right hon. Gentleman says, that the most outstanding and complex questions of difficulty have been passed, and what remained were comparatively easy and unimportant. Why did not the right hon.
    630
    Gentleman have a little patience? He said that they had had a great deal of long-suffering patience. [MINISTERIAL cheers.] Well, "long-suffering" is a rather unpleasant word to use against those most of whom, either as regards the manner or the matter of their speeches, you can make no complaint; but a little more patience would have seen him through. He brought forward a number of Quixotic and extreme suggestions, such as the question, "Are you going to have all-night sittings in a case of this sort until every one is exhausted?" No; no one out of a lunatic asylum suggests it. But there was this solution of the difficulty to which he did not refer—that is, to be sure, when you have a big Bill of this sort, touching such a thorny question, to give it the best of the session; and certainly, to be sure that it is drawn in such a way as to avoid rather than encourage Amendments. And, lastly, I think you ought, when you have begun it, to go on with it until it has passed through the House of Commons, which would not involve any very exaggerated time, and would save you the necessity of committing this dreadful inroad, as the right hon. Gentleman admits, upon the rights and privileges of Parliament. Our real purpose has been—while we have maintained our opinion, and reserved our opinion on the obnoxious parts of the Bill—to bring order out of educational chaos; but now the decent discussion of the details of this Bill is to be sacrificed to the fiat of the Minister and the ease and convenience of Members. What contribution will be made by the Members to the dignity, renown, and efficiency of Parliament? None whatever. On the contrary, a blow will be struck at it. In that, at least, we will have no hand, and I beg to move the Amendment which stands in my name.
    Amendment proposed—
    "To leave out all the words after the word 'That,' in line 1, and to add the words, 'this House declines to entertain a proposal to restrict debate upon a measure which, since it vitally affects the whole working of local government and administration, and, while assuming to establish' a permanent system of national education, endows denominational teaching out of the rates without securing full popular control, demands the most searching examination in every particular.'"—(Sir Henry Campbell-Bannerman.)
    Question proposed, "That the words to the end of line 6, stand part of the Question."
    MR. CHAPLIN: I ask the indulgence of the House, and especially of many hon. Members on this side, while I endeavour to state the reasons which, after much thought and reluctance, compel me, on every ground, and with every sense of duty, consistency, and self-respect, and of regard for the future position of this House, to take the course which I intend to take tonight—namely, to oppose this Motion. I listened with the greatest interest to everything that fell from my right hon. friend tonight, and while I did so the memory of a similar occasion came back upon me with a force which it was almost impossible to resist. I seemed to witness once again the scene which was before us on that occasion, and to hear again the speeches which were made by men, old friends and colleagues of my own, with whom in perfect union I had been working all my Parliamentary; life and I frankly own that the contrast, the glaring contrast, for it is nothing else, between their sentiments and views at that time and the policy which they propose today, is to me one of the most painful, and as regards the future of the Tory party, I consider, one of the most dangerous episodes I remember in a very long Parliamentary career. I will not dwell more, however, upon this, but I must stop for a moment to notice yet another striking contrast between the proceedings of today and upon that occasion; because it raise: a rather serious question, and it afford some evidence, I think, of the rather impatient spirit in which the Prime Minister is treating the House upon this occasion. When Mr. Gladstone moves his famous Resolution on the 29th o June 1893, he gave the House a week—till the 6th of July—before it came into operation; but my right hon. friend moved his Resolution tonight, and it is to take effect tomorrow. That is tribute, I admit, to the mantle of prophecy which has fallen upon one his colleagues, my right hon. friend the Secretary for the Colonies, for you have I think, already been reminded that,
    632
    speaking on Mr. Gladstone's Motion in 1893, he said—
    "The Government for very shame propose to give you a month. The next, perhaps, will give you a week only."
    Why, the Prime Minister has done a good deal better than that because between my right hon. friend's Resolution and the hour when the knife is to descend on his victims, he gives us only a single clay. But this raises a serious question. It does not rest with the right hon. Gentleman to settle whether or not this resolution is to be carried at a single sitting. What right has he to assume, as he does by the very words of his Motion, that it will be? It is certain that it can be only by the closure if it is; and unless —which I will not believe—he has come to some arrangement with Mr. Speaker beforehand on this subject, what right, I say, has he or any Minister to presume that Mr. Speaker, who is the guardian of our privileges, and, above all, of our rights of speech, will assent to any such proposal, before, at all events, he has heard the views of Gentlemen in all parts of the House? All I know is this, that when a Motion for the closure was made on the first night of Mr. Gladstone's Resolution in 1893, it was emphatically refused by Mr. Speaker Peel, and in these words, for I have referred to them myself—
    "I shall certainly decline to put that Motion."
    I shall continue to believe that the present honoured occupant of the Chair—
    MR. SPEAKER: This is quite out of order. The right hon. Gentleman is proceeding now to discuss and even to dictate to the Chair what its course should be. I shall do my duty, I hope, should the occasion arise, but I decline to allow any debate beforehand as to the course I should pursue.
    MR. CHAPLIN: I am most sorry if anything that fell from me gave that impression for a moment to you. I was about to use the very words that fell from you, that the occupant of the Chair might assuredly be trusted to do his duty.
    MR. SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman will understand that I did

    633
    not imply that he had said anything except in a perfectly courteous manner, but I considered that what he was doing was not in accordance with order and the Rules of the House.
    MR. CHAPLIN:I am extremely sorry if I have Committed the slightest breach in that respect; I was arguing against what appeared to me to be the assumption contained in the very words of the Motion, that this proposal must be carried tonight. I pass then, Mr. Speaker, altogether from that branch of the question; merely saying this, that I think there was some justification for the views which struck me with regard to it. The Prime Minister has based his case very much on the necessity for this Motion, if, as he says, we are to preserve the dignity of this Assembly and our power to cam out any legislation at all. Well, Sir, I am quite as anxious as my right hon. friend to maintain the dignity of this Assembly. My complaint of him is this, that by his Rules, which have been referred to already, and on which so notch of the time of this session has been spent, he has done so very little to preserve its dignity. That is why I have always quarrelled with his Rules. Undoubtedly there was a strong demand both here and in the country for reforms in Rules in order to check disorder and to curb obstruction. A whole code of Rules was introduced accordingly, and what is the result? Has anything at all been done to preserve the dignity of the House, or check disorder, or curb obstruction? Nothing—practically nothing; and I think it has been proved by the result, and by the necessity for the violent proceedings which are proposed tonight. The night before Parliament assembled, my right hon. friend, I think it was at the Mansion House, passed a glowing eulogium on the House of Commons and what was termed the Mother of Parliaments. I cannot say when I read it in the morning that I entirely agreed with him, and he met with a rather unfortunate reply on the very following day, when a Member of the House, in the course of one of the debates, did his best in a most violent scene to personally assault him while he was in his place upon that Bench. [Cries of "No."]
    Mr. T. M. HEALY: There was no attempt whatever to assault him. Is the right hon. Gentleman's remark in order?
    MR SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman is merely drawing his own conclusions from what he saw.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to say, in justice to others, that the statement is inaccurate?
    MR. CHAPLIN: If the hon. Member knows that, I will withdraw it instantly. That is the impression which sitting up here the hon. Member gave me, and that was why, I was very glad when I saw the manly form of my right hon. friend the Minister for Agriculture in the way, because I thought the hon. Member would otherwise certainly have succeeded in what I conceived to be his purpose. I am delighted to hear that I have misinterpreted his action. But apart from that unpleasant incident, I think the Prime Minister must have felt that his glowing eulogium was a little out of place when, for a week or ten days afterwards, we were confronted with the still more painful spectacle of Mr. Speaker—I do not wish to use any unparliamentary expression—being what appeared to me bated and heckled for three-quarters of an hour at a time almost daily by men who apparently had learned that under the new Rules they could do it with impunity. Now, to my mind, these are the things which are sapping the credit and the dignity of the House, and which the Government, by their new Rules, would do nothing to prevent, and I cannot find a letter or a line which has been added to your Rules to punish or restrain the individuals who do them. On the contrary, one Member of this House not so very long ago called another a liar in his place, and because he refused to withdraw the expression, you proceeded to suspend him for the insult which was offered not only to the Member but to the House and to Mr. Speaker in the Chair. Now, the only Rule you introduced against disorder had been discussed, partly altered, then dropped and left in a mangled, incomplete condition, which made the suspension of a Member perpetual. Having suspended the Member in this case you passed a Resolution

    635
    almost immediately afterwards in order to readmit him within a week, because you thought it would be unfair to take advantage of that state of things.
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I must say that the right hon. Gentleman is going outside altogether of the Question before the House. This is not a question of order in debate at all.
    MR. CHAPLIN: Of course I always accept your ruling whatever it may be. I was endeavouring to reply to my right hon. friend's argument in support of his proposals, that they were put forward in order to maintain and preserve the dignity of this House. If it is out of order, I will pursue that line of argument no further. But what is the result of these new Rules which you have passed? You find yourselves, as you were repeatedly warned in the course of those debates you would be, worse off than you were before, and now your only escape from the impasse in which you find yourselves is to take refuge in this violent proceeding. But surely to gag all the Members of the House of Commons who never offend, either by obstruction, disorder, or undue verbosity, instead of dealing with the guilty individuals, is hardly the way to restore the character, the dignity, or the independence of this House. It is calculated rather, on the other hand, to rouse feelings of injury and resentment on the part of those who do not offend and who do their best at all times to preserve the character of the House of Commons.
    My right hon. friend, in the course of his speech, referred to proposals which I have sometimes made over a course of several years for the purpose of establishing individual closure. I hope I shall be in order in replying in a few words to my right hon. friend. He thinks the system altogether impracticable; I reply that he has never tried it, and, at all events, it could not be more futile or more useless than some of the Rules he has passed. In my early days in Parliament there was an unwritten law which brought into existence the most perfect system of individual closure in the world by crying out "Divide, divide!" Well, I still believe, in spite of my right hon. friend,
    636
    that we could restore to some extent, the enactment of a Rule or Rules, what prevailed in these days, and with complete success, without it. You must remember that the offenders in this particular respect are very few in number; [An HON. MEMBER on the Opposition Benches: None.] and I believe myself that the plan of individual closure should be tried. I have watched the debates on this Bill pretty closely, and I maintain that there has been comparatively little, and, so far as my experience has gone, I think many of these debates were extremely good, very instructive, and have led to very considerable alterations in the Bill. Well, but if that is so, what I have to say in reply to my right hon. friend is, that I do not think that the debates under such circumstances ought to be violently stopped, arid after all I think we should remember that the right hon. Gentleman is to a considerable extent responsible himself for trying to pass a whole code of new Rules, and what he and everybody knew would be a most controversial measure, during one and the same session.
    But what is the inference which we are to draw from the speed of my right hon. friend? He rejects continuous sessions, and although he himself somewhat favours another plan, what he called of "carrying over," that plan apparently fell as flat during his statement this afternoon on the minds of his audience as it did on the Committee over which he says that he presided many years ago. It only adds to the objection I feel to his proposal tonight, and the only inference which I can draw is this—that the scheme is not to be exceptional, but to be habitual, and in future it is to form a part of the ordinary procedure and practice of this Assembly. I say that that is an alternative which I dread, and for which there is no necessity whatever. What is the Clause which you have selected upon which to begin to put your gagging scheme into operation? The right hon. Gentleman said at the Mansion House last night that almost everything in connection with this Bill had been discussed except education; but there is one thing that has never been discussed, and that is the Clause dealing with the expenses for carrying the Bill.

    637
    Well, now, tomorrow we ought to have reached a very important Clause—Clause 13—which many of us think is perhaps the most important in the Bill. I am not forgetting for a moment that my right hon. friend has made considerable concessions already on this subject. He has promised that £900,000 should be contributed to the voluntary schools from the Imperial funds in addition to the grants we have already. But there have been considerable changes in the Bill since then, and the further information which has been developed in the course of these debates with regard to the condition of many of the voluntary schools has led to the belief that that concession is very far from adequate, unless we are to be saddled in the future with burdens on the rates infinitely greater than anything that has hitherto been contemplated. Throughout the whole of these discussions this is the first opportunity, for which we have been waiting, of saying anything at all on this most important question, and I can assure my right hon. friend that the keenest anxiety is felt in the rural districts on the subject. I have had, I don't know how many letters and telegrams on the subject—in fact I am receiving them every minute—since it was known that the plan of my right hon. friend was to move the closure on this very Clause on the night on which it was to be discussed. This is a subject in which I am greatly interested, and in which I know I represent feelings which are widely held in the country, and which we think ought to be fully and amply discussed before this Bill is forced through the House of Commons. Now there is an Amendment to Clause 13 on the Paper which raises the whole of this important question, viz., how far it is right that the cost of education, which is admittedly a matter of national concern, ought to fall at all on the local rates. But it is not the first on the Paper. On the contrary, there are a number of Amendments to Clause 12, including an Amendment raising the whole question of secondary education. I think it is likely—it is certainly quite possible—that this very important question in regard to the rates may not be reached at all. What will be the position then? The Bill adds an unknown burden to the rates. Many of my friends believe that these will be infinitely
    638
    heavier in the course of time—and I suspect that they have good grounds for their belief—than was even for a moment thought of when the Bill was introduced. I myself am deeply pledged against it, and so I believe is the great majority of hon. Members who took part in the election of 1895. I hold in my hand the pledges given by the leading Members of the Cabinet in 1895, on this particular subject.
    MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is now discussing the merits of Clause 13, and the Amendments proposed to it. He is not in order.
    MR. CHAPLINWell, I pass from the point; and I thank you, Mr. Speaker, for giving me so much liberty as you have done. I do not wish to delay the House by reading out these pledges, because they are matters on which every man must judge for himself. I desire to pass judgment upon no man; but for myself, I wish to say that I have no alternative: I cannot vote today for closuring an Amendment to a Clause which would otherwise impose heavy and increased burdens en the rates and a Clause which may not even be reached at all. The right hon. Gentleman has tonight given us a considerable number of statistics, but one thing is quite certain that if he has his way we shall have no chance of testing the accuracy of these statistics until after tins Motion is passed. I do not believe for a single moment that there is any real necessity for this Motion. My right hon. friend has referred to Air. Gladstone's Motions, both on the Home Rule Bill and the Evicted Tenants Bill in 1893 and 1894 I should have thought that these were evil precedents which ought to afford us warnings, rather than examples to be followed. But why did Mr. Gladstone move his Resolution on the Home Rule Bill? Because he told the House of Commons at that time that at their then rate of progress the task which had been undertaken by him and by the Liberal Party, as a task alike of honour and of policy, and by which they were bound, was beyond the limits of human attainment without the Closure. Now that I know the facts, I begin to think that Mr. Gladstone was right, and that

    639
    without it he never could have carried his measure through the House of Commons. Why, it took twenty-eight days discussion to pass four Clauses, and at that rate Mr. Gladstone stated that twelve months would not have been sufficient to carry his measure into law. As a matter of fact, the Home Rule Bill, even in spite of the gagging Closure which was applied to it, was debated for no less than seventy-eight days altogether. But no one pretends that in the present condition of affairs there is anything approaching to that state of things. Four considerable Clauses of this Bill were carried in almost as many hours as the four Clauses of the Home Rule Bill took days—they were carried quite recently in something under thirty hours, and I am convinced that if my right hon. friend had persevered in the course which he has adopted up to this time, using the Closure as he has done lately, the Committee on this Bill would have been completed in probably another week, and if it had not been for the three months practically wasted as, I think, in the earlier part of the Session on the Rules of Procedure, this Bill would have probably been law before the present time. My right hon. friend said of Mr. Gladstone's Resolution in 1893, that it was not a Motion of necessity, but of expediency. I say tonight that my right hon. friend's Resolution is neither of necessity nor of expediency, but of convenience only. It is, in fact, a repetition on a larger scale of the famous Lyttle-stone incident, which occurred during the passage of our Rules, when the House of Commons, on a certain Thursday, was kept up all one night by my right hon. friend for no necessity whatever. It was in order to pass a certain Rule before the House adjourned. There was no important business on the Friday. The Rule could have perfectly been finished then, although it might perhaps have somewhat interfered with other pursuits at Lyttlestone on Saturday. I have always thought, and said, that it was the highest tribute to the well-earned popularity of the Minister, that I ever recollect, that not a word of anger or resentment, at any rate so far as I know, was ever heard about it, even from those who suffered from it like myself. But he must forgive me if I say that, in my
    640
    humble opinion, whatever it may be worth, neither the popularity, nor the power of any Minister, will long survive the constant repetition of high-handed coups like this.
    Now, Sir, I have nothing more that I need say upon this subject, and I will bring my observations to a close. I have given to the House a variety of reasons which weigh with me in my decision, but there is one which is supreme above them all. I am thinking of the freedom of the future of this great Assembly. I remember the speech of the Prime Minister in opposing Mr. Gladstone's Resolution in 1893. I remember well his words on that occasion, words Which I think have been already quoted on that side of the House tonight. Let me repeat them once again. They will be well worth recollecting, looking to their consequences in the future.
    "I do not look upon this question in any way as connected with home Rule. I do not come here to oppose this Resolution as a Unionist, but because I think it is absolutely inconsistent with the very elements of the life of is free debating Assembly."
    Those words, Sir, I believe were wise and just on the day when they were spoken. I believe them to be no less wise and no less just today. And holding this conviction, and believing in my heart and conscience, as I do, that they are as true today as they were in 1893, there is only one path open to me tonight, the path which is dictated alike by honour, by consistency, and duty—and that is, to, oppose this Motion.
    DR. MACNAMARA: I confess, I myself feel very tired of the Education Bill, and I desire to see it brought to an end as soon as may be, but I would venture to point Out this fact. We are settling in this Bill the principle of education of the homeland of this great Empire, for it may be twenty or thirty years. The school machinery of the Bill may affect the present interest of 6,000,000 working class children; it may affect, before its work is complete, the interest of 60,000,000 children. I do, therefore, regret the impatience shown by the Prime Minister just now, and suggest that it is a little bit unpatriotic, having regard to the enormous issues contained in the Bill before us. Whatever our

    641
    personal opinions may be, and whatever sacrifices we may make, it behoves us, I think, to examine with strictness the details of this important measure. Birmingham has been told by the right hon. Gentleman, the Colonial Secretary, that this was not a perfect Bill and that the Government welcome suggestions. We have met the right hon. Gentleman halfway; we have agreed with him that the Bill was not perfect, and we have done what we could to improve it. We have, it is true, been thirty-eight days in Committee, and the proceedings have been rather protracted, but it must be remembered that this is a Bill which sweeps entirely away no less than 2,500 public authorities which have been doing admirable public work for thirty years: it affects 14,000 other authorities not public authorities, which have been charged for a similar period with the education of the youth of the country. This is a Bill which breaks down the system by which all the schools of this country have been maintained by voluntary subscriptions. This is a Bill which insists that all education shall he maintained at the public cost. This is a Bill which enforces a system of local rating for education. What does that mean? It means an absolutely new rate for 9,000,000 of the people of this country: a new rate for 117 urban boroughs. 92 urban districts, and probably not less than 5,000 parishes. I say it is no doubt excellent and desirable so far as it goes, but it calls for extreme circumspection and care. I agree that most parts of this Bill have been adopted after considerable consideration and lengthy debate, but I do not think the right hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that all the part of the Bill which has at present been adopted has been adopted after great consideration. Clauses 9, 10 and 11 were rushed through the Committee in a way that could not be regarded as wise; Clause 9 was taken at one Sitting, after four applications of the Closure; Clauses 10 and 11 were taken at one Sitting after the Closure had been applied three times. I do not mind the rating. Consequences will follow, must follow, and in the endeavour to prevent their following I am a sort of educational Mrs. Partington. But inasmuch as these Clauses, taken in two nights after
    642
    seven applications of the Closure, sweep all new schools into the denominational byways, by giving a preference in favour of private buildings, I object to that very much. That, I think, is the feature which will be one of the worst fetters of the Bill in ten years time, although I agree that many of the provisions of the Bill are admirable.
    Look at what we are asked to do under this Resolution of the Prime Minister. I will not go into more than one or two points of detail, and I observe that the right hon. Gentleman never got near them in his statement. What are we going to do in the next fortnight or three weeks? Tomorrow and tonight, after disposing of this lewdly Motion, we are asked to dispose of the latter part of Clause 12, and in addition to that we have to dispose of Clause 13. Let me call the attention of the House to Clause 13. In my opinion, the right hon. Member for Sleaford has not laid anything like sufficient stress on Clause 13, which is to be disposed of by tomorrow night. It deals with the whole question of expenditure; the w hole finance of public education; the incidence of rating; whether it shall be on the county, on the district, on the borough; the extremely important question of outstanding liabilities and how they are to he reduced. This Clause involves first of all an increased rate over every district which now has a rate; it involves a new rate to the extent of at least ,£2,000,000 in districts which never had a rate before; it involves a special treatment of no less than £20,000,000 of outstanding loans contracted by educational authorities now existing, outstanding liabilities to the extent of £50 in the ease of a small School Board, and rising to half a million in, say, the case of the Leeds School Board. All that has to be reduced until the liability has been met. All these considerations are to be dealt with tomorrow night. I notice there ate sixty or eighty Amendments on the Paper dealing with this Clause, and among those Amendments there are many in the names of hon. Gentlemen and right hon. Gentlemen Opposite; the right hon. Gentleman has two, and the Secretary to the Board of Education four. Where do we come in? There

    643
    is one in the name of the right hon. Member for Sleaford, and one in the name of the hon. Member for East Somerset, who has so materially assisted the Government in the improvement of this Bill. How are all those important Amendments to be taken in this headlong way before tomorrow night? There is one thing I should like to call attention to, and that is the question of this new million which is to be granted by the Treasury, this new aid grant. At Friday's sitting we are to take Clauses 18, 19 and 20, and the Committee stage of the new financial Resolution, disposing of something like a million of money, and we are finally to dispose of it on the following Monday. Then I may call the attention of the Attorney General to the Voluntary Schools Act of 1897. There was a Bill which dealt with £760,000. That Bill took the House seventeen sittings in Committee, and we are to be given less than one sitting to dispose of practically a million of money. If seventeen sittings were required to dispose of £760,000 it is curious that we should be allowed only part of one sitting to dispose of £1,000,000. Next Thursday week, under this timetable, we are to have under consideration and conclude the Committee stage of the Schedules, with practically no possible chance of any discussion on any of these things. One of the parts involved in the stupendous work set down for November 20th is Schedule 4. In that schedule it is proposed to repeal thirty-two years of educational statutes of this country, two statutes entirely, four statutes in part, ninety-six sections to be repealed in full, and sixty in part, many of which have no concern with what has been said in the discussions on this Bill. They do not emerge in this Bill. If I were challenged I could call attention to statutes which we are called upon to repeal which do not arise on the Clauses we have added to this Bill to save the blunders of it. I venture to protest against the policy of rushing this Bill at this stage. I know it has been a long time in Committee, and that the Prime Minister has been patient. I only wish his patience had lasted to the end. This Bill is going into the country with a sense of irritation on the part of the
    644
    people, and the proceeding we are now engaged in must exasperate the feeling and accentuate that irritation and make the Bill less satisfactory than it might otherwise be. The present policy is not a wise policy, and will not make for educational progress in the country. I venture to think we should go on and do the best we can, and give all the time that may be necessary to the full and complete discussion of this Bill, so that we may make a great and effective measure of it.
    MR. PARKER SMITH (Lanarkshire, Particle): I am not surprised that the opposition to this Motion should have been based on the special grounds of this Bill and not so much on general grounds. Some hon. Gentlemen opposite consider that this scheme will degrade the House of Commons to the level of a voting machine, but I do not see how, after his action in 1893 and 1894, any other line could well have been taken by the right hon. Gentleman. I do not wish to support this Resolution on any special grounds; I do not wish to enter into the question as to how far the Bill has been fully discussed; what the merits of the Amendments have been and whether there was any obstruction. I am quite prepared to assume that there has been no obstruction whatever; that the Amendments have been reasonable, and that they have not been pressed at too great a length in argument, but I think the question remains whether it is right or possible for this House to spend the amount of time in these most minute discussions which this Bill has undergone, and which it is the growing tendency of the House of Commons to enter into in all questions in which all are interested. The Prime Minister, with wise economy, did not go into the general question. He did not go into the question of whether it was expedient to lay down a general Rule on this House—a system which should make the House have a limit of this kind, not as an exceptional necessity but as a regular Standing Order. I do not agree that the introduction of a general Rule of this sort would reduce the House to the level of a voting machine. I think it would, have quite a contrary effect; that it would offer this House fair time for considering any great question brought

    645
    before it in a way no other change could do. At present we are unable to give an intelligent judgment; we are unable to have before us in proportionate length, and in a close enough focus, the questions with which we have to deal. Everybody has felt the overwhelming burden of the work of this House, which was one of the most pressing reasons which Mr. Gladstone gave in bringing, in the Home Rule Bill. We have all suffered from o disappointment in the way we have seen work set back session after session, because Of the impossibility of getting that limited amount of time which is necessary to pass into law measures on which all are substantially agreed. It is made impossible, to obtain that short amount of time for many of our measures, by the claim of the House of Commons to examine into every detail of every measure that comes before it. Are these measures really made the better for the exercise of that right? I for my part doubt it very much. I do not think this Horse is the place for minute discussions On small points; even if they are substantial points, I think the House should limit itself to the broader issues placed before it. The old system had great merits. Under the old system, when a Bill was to be brought ill, a set of Resolutions was brought before the House, which voted upon them, and they were finally put into the shape of a Bill by those responsible for tin, Bill.
    This Bill has already more than exhausted the limited amount of time you have at your disposal for legislation in a normal session. Granted that the Amendments are reasonable and substantial, yet the House has to consider the amount of time spent on tins Bill as compared with the whole work of the House of Commons in the whole session. Such a point as that cannot come into the question of closure. The Chairman has to consider on the question of closure the rights of the minority. It would be impossible to put on the Chair the responsibility of weighing the importance of the question before the House at the time, in comparison with the whole amount of work to be done. But considerations of that sort must come in, and they are fully accepted as the basis of the new Rules governing Supply. We have fixed the time within narrow limits for one of our most important functions—the question of Supply. The order in which it is to be put can be arranged, and the
    646
    effect of our arranging the different times is such that the most important questions come under consideration, and the less important can be left. That has been a great advantage. It has had a most satisfactory result, which will be felt by all of us who remember the old system, that the rat catcher to St. James's Palace has vanished into the obscurity suitable for him. I should like the Government, not only with regard to this Bill but others, to follow the same system, but there is a strong dread read in the minds of Members on this side of the House, as well as on the other, who say this scheme would reduce the House to the level of a voting machine. On this side, Gentlemen are afraid of setting a precedent for the other side, and of too much legislation being carried through if changes of this sort are made. But the jealousy of legislation and the exaggeration of the mischievous consequence of legislation of secondary importance are small matters compared with the great necessity of getting business through Parliament. Supposing our opponents come into office: they already have the power which some hon. Members fear, they have absolute control over administration, foreign relations, expenditure, and Standing Orders; they call alter Standing Orders to suit themselves without any interference from the House of Lords. The only condition upon which we can run a free country like this is that those who are in power should have the responsibility of power and the opportunity of carrying out their policy effectively. It therefore seems to me to be a very false and untrustworthy protection to rely on a system by which mechanical and artificial difficulties are put in the way of legislation. Even without altering Standing Orders, whatever Party is in power with a strong majority can carry through a big measure on which their hearts are set in the way that the Home Rule and the Evicted Tenants Bills were carried through, and for this the present measure will furnish a farther precedent.
    In the Unionist Party in particular, this jealousy of legislation is misplaced. Hitherto we have not so much depended on our legislation for the confidence of the country. We have had the questions of Home Rule and the War, and those two great questions have been at the bottom of the continuous support which the

    647
    nation has given us. I hope in these coming years no such exciting questions may arise, but that we may find a more humdrum course in which it will be efficiency on which we shall have to depend if we are to retain the confidence of the nation. Efficiency has many elements, but certainly one of its important elements is that of being able to pass the necessary amount of legislation from year to year. This unexciting legislation is what suffers the most from the present state of things. It gets hung up from the beginning to the end of the Session, and then, if it goes through at all, it is in an unsatisfactory manner, as the result of a somewhat undignified bargain between the Government and individual sections of the House.
    Can the House of Commons, under present conditions, do the necessary work of the country? I do not think it can. Could it do so if it altered its Rules so as to concentrate its attention on vital matters, and escape an undue amount of talk over matters of secondary, tertiary, or fourth-rate importance? I believe it could. The case of Supply is an example of the change in the nature of discussion, and in the value of the work done, that can be brought about by a change in our Standing Orders. Therefore, I hope it will not be only with regard to exceptional matters, but in regard to our every day practice that such a change may be made.
    This is not the only Legislative Assembly that has been overburdened by the amount of its work. The same difficulty has been experienced in the American Congress, and there it has been met much more boldly than here. There the Committee on Rules has the power absolutely to lay down the amount of time to be devoted to an individual Bill. That process is continually adopted, and by that means an adequate amount of work is got through. By a fair and impartial Committee there may be laid down beforehand the amount of time that justly represents the share of the whole time of the House to which each subject is entitled. In Congress the responsibility is taken by the Committee On Rules with the Speaker in the Chair. But according to our ideas, it is not a duty or responsibility which lies on the Speaker; it is one that should be taken
    648
    by the House itself, or by a Committee representing the House—by such a Committee as has often been offered to the Opposition by the Prime Minister in regard to Supply, one in which the Government would not even be dominant, of which the Leader of the House should be the Chairman, and on which the Opposition should be duly represented. I believe that it is only by entering upon a bolder scheme of that sort that we shall get through the work of the House of Commons. The changes winch have been made in our Rules may meet individual difficulties and small points, but I hope we shall before long take a broader view of what is necessary if the House is to do its work, and it is mainly as a precedent towards that change and the adoption of such a method as that to which I have referred, that I welcome the Resolution of the Government.
    MR. TREVELYAN: I do not intend to follow the last speaker into a general dissertation on the possibilities of dealing with our business. We all agree that the necessity, as the Government allege, for bringing forward this Motion is an unpleasant one, and in the speech made by the Premier today, in which he called up the precedent of the Home Rule Bill of 1893, them was at least that point of similarity with the speech in which Mr. Gladstone proposed his Closure Resolutions. But with that expression of regret at what he thought it necessary to do t he similarity ended. The underlying phrase, if I may call it so, of Mr. Gladstone's speech was this:—
    "To deal with this measure is exactly the commission we (the Government) have received from our constituents."
    There is the difference between the two situations. The Home Rule Bill was in response to a mandate from the country. It is true there was a small majority, but the, election had been directly and practically solely upon that issue, in this case there is no mandate from the country. So far is that from being the case that there is not a single allusion to the Education Bill in the election address of either of the Members who have taken any important part in this Bill. You can search the speeches of

    649
    right hon. Gentlemen who are now sitting on the Treasury Bench, and you will find no allusion whatever to the subject of education. The Colonial Secretary made one speech on home questions, all the others being on the war, and that one speech was made because a working man tried to challenge his supremacy, and the whole of it was devoted to attacking the Labour Members at present in Parliament. Therefore, one of the chief points which we urge tonight is that, as the country have had no opportunity of discussing this Bill at a general election, we have a right in this House to the fullest and freest discussion on behalf of the country, and that the Government have no right to curtail that discussion.
    But let us come at once to the question of whether the discussion has been so prolonged, considering the circumstances of the case. The Premier pointed out that when Mr. Gladstone introduced his Closure Resolutions with regard to the Home Rule Bill, that measure had been under discussion for twenty-one days. What we have to consider is how many days the two Bills will have been under discussion if the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman are carried into effect. The number of days in Committee and on Report which the Education Bill will take under these proposals is 48; the number of days which the Home Rule Bill took was 61. It may be said that the Home Rule Bill was a greater Bill. Of course it was. But it was essentially a sketch, which had to be filled in by legislators and administrators after it was passed. There is no need to discuss whether they would have filled it in properly; the fact is that that Bill was essentially a general scheme, which had to be filled in afterwards. This Education Bill is a finished and detailed arrangement with regard to the education of the country winch is being introduced as a substitute for another equally elaborate system. It is this fact, together with that of the bad Government drafting, to which these long discussions have been due. There never was a Bill brought into this House which has been so much amended as this one. Take the Bill as far as we have gone. The original Measure down to nearly the end of Clause 12 consisted of 160 lines; of those original lines there are 122 left, and 123 new lines
    650
    have been inserted. Does it not rather look as if it were bad drafting and not wilful obstruction on the part of the Opposition? It rather argues that this House as a whole has been very reasonable and has proposed very reasonable Amendments, and the Government has found it necessary to accept them.
    Let me look at the effect of these discussions from another point of view. I take the Amendments to the most important Clause we have yet discussed, namely, Clause 8. I have been through the Amendments to that Clause. I find there were forty-one Amendments proposed to Clause 8, and of these, two were introduced by the Government, eleven were brought forward by supporters of the Government, nine were brought forward by Liberal Members, and were either accepted or withdrawn on the pledge of the Government that they would practically carry them into effect. No less than twenty-two Amendments out of the forty-one on that Clause were moved in the interests or with the approval of the Government. Of the rest, fourteen were such as I think nobody could deny were important Amendments, concerning questions like the appointment of teachers, whether they should perform extraneous duties or not, all questions which hon. Members were interested in, and are of serious importance. Of the remainder, there were only five Amendments winch would come under the category of what the Prime Minister called "trumpery details." The last speaker objected to the discussion of trumpery details at all, but where can we discuss those details? We cannot discuss only the important things here and send the trumpery details somewhere else. I do not think that five trumpery details out of forty-one Amendments is a very large proportion, and does not indicate unreasonable discussion on the part of the Opposition. The Amendments have been neither obstructive nor destructive of the Bill. It is true that a few have been destructive of the policy which the Government regarded the Bill as carrying out, but I do not think that a single Amendment has been destructive in the sense as many of those were which were moved against the Home Rule Bill, which would have made the Measure unworkable had they passed. There is another point of view, and that is in regard to the next few days during which this Closure will come into operation.

    651
    The hon. Member for North Camberwell has referred to this point. Under sub-Section (f) of this Resolution, we are to discuss on Wednesday and Thursday—
    "(f) The proceedings on the new Clause relating to managers, and any other Government new Clauses, on Schedules, and any new Government Schedules, and any other proceedings necessary to bring the Committee stage to a conclusion, On Thursday, 20th November."
    It appears to me to be a very dangerous thing to curtail a discussion of that kind. It is one thing to Closure Clauses and Schedules which are on the Paper, but it is quite another thing to practically give the Government a free hand to put down at the last moment any Clauses they like, and push them through by a sudden Closure. We might have the Scottish system introduced by this means—or perhaps the Scottish system of the catechism party without the control. The Premier is very fond of that. We might have any Clause closured through in the last minute. It seems to me that there is no necessity for this proposal. The discussion, so far, has been practical from beginning to end. The Amendments added to the Bill prove the satisfactory character of the discussion and the way the Government has had to recognise it. This Motion is simply one for the convenience of the Government, and nothing else.
    MR. ELLIOTsaid he did not think that anyone underrated the importance of the proposal before the House. The question was whether or not, as regarded the merits of a proposal which had an enormous support on this side of the House, the Government and the House of Commons was to be rendered inefficacious by an interminable prolongation of debate. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford had referred to the state of things in the old days, and it was true that the practice which then existed was closure by clamour. It was found, however, that the system of closure by clamour absolutely broke down when it was persistently resisted, and it was in consequence of the absolute breakdown of closure by clamour that the new system of closure was inaugurated. If they were to retain their title as a legislative body, it behoved them to see that certain Rules were enforced in order that they might be enabled to carry on their business as
    652
    well as to carry on debate. He thought it had been admitted by the Leader of the House that the present difficulties had not arisen from anything in the slightest degree of an obstructive character. His view of the matter was this: he had attended regularly, and he had read what had been said in the country, and he could not close his eyes to the fact that it was the intention of a large number of the opponents of this measure not only to waste time but to kill the Bill, and it was the duty of the Prime Minister, as guardian of the dignity and the privileges of the House of Commons, to put down such tactics. It was quit e competent for the House to pass the remaining Clauses of the Bill in two days if necessary, but he did not think it ought to do so. But those who made it their Party strategy to defeat measures, not by argument but by tactics to cause delay, ought to remember that there was an inherent power which, if the majority chose to exercise it and put its foot down, must sweep away those tactics, and this would have to be done if the House of Commons was to remain a legislative as well as a debating Assembly. This Bill might be complicated in the working out, but in the way it had been laid before the House it was not complicated. It was a measure to enable local authorities to make their own schemes, whereas formerly this work had devolved upon the House of Commons itself. He knew these were difficult points, but in complexity this Bill compared favourably with other great measures. If they looked back to the old full dress Second Reaching debates in the days of Lord Palmerston and Lord John Russell, he did not think that, compared with those, the debates on this measure had been shortened. If they turned up Hansard of the old days and looked through the number of nights occupied, they would find that while Second Reading debates went to a very considerable length indeed, the Committee stage rarely occupied much time. The only way of protecting the liberties of debate was by having stringent Rules. He dissented from the view that the dignity of the House of Commons depended upon ample latitude to every individual to speak as often and as long as he desired. He had been in the House of Commons for a considerable

    653
    time, and on whatever side he had been sitting he had on every single occasion when Rules had been brought forward to strengthen order and give greater effect to the will of the House, supported those Rules, and he should certainly not make this an exception to the rule he had hitherto followed. Their liberties and usefulness went very much together. His hon. friend the Member for the Elland Division talked of what was done in connection with the Home Rule Bill of 1892. That might have been a "sketch," but he would remind his hon. friend that it was a sketch which was carefully kept dark until the eve of the General Election. The hon. Member said that Mr. Gladstone had a mandate in 1892 to carry a Home Rule Bill. If there was any thing in that argument it involved a system of annual Parliaments, or, at all events, oftener than under the septennial system. There was no chance of a majority of this Parliament accepting annual Parliaments or anything like it, and until that was done it was useless to talk as if Parliament had no mandate except to carry out a particular measure. To carry out the views of the hon. Member, what would have happened when peace came? Apparently it would have been the duty of the Government to at once dissolve Parliament. Why should this Government act in a different way from that in which hon. Gentlemen opposite would act in similar circumstances? The question they had to consider was, Are we to pass this Bill or are we not? Were they to carry over the discussion of the Bill into February or March? He did not think hon. Members had grasped what that meant. Everybody could not speak on the Bill. They must devise, somehow or another, measures for the House of Commons to do its work. He thought most of them would dislike any revolutionary measures, and the best way to keep those measures at a distance was to pass such a moderate and reasonable scheme as his right hon. friend had laid before the House. He heard the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Sleaford Division say that the Leader of the House would very soon lose his popularity and credit if he hustled measures of this importance through Parliament. This was no case of hustling. Never before had so much delay been shown in the discussion of the details
    654
    of a Bill. He could not help noticing that there were half a dozen Motions on the Paper in identically the same terms, and yet hon. Members were inclined to say that this proposal of the Government was calculated to lower the House of Commons to the position of a voting machine. [An HON. MEMBER: "Those were the words of the Colonial Secretary."] That was the reason, he supposed, why the happy thought had struck half a dozen Members at once! He would not ask hon. Members to throw back their memories a long way. He would ask them to throw back their memories to Friday last, when they had ten or twelve divisions on the Education Bill. For a couple of hours they were acting very much like a voting machine. Those who said that Parliament was being degraded to the mere position of a voting machine were themselves committing that very crime. It was to save the House of Commons from that unsatisfactory state of things, and to enable to become law a Bill which had the support of the immense majority of the British people, that he would give no equivocal support to the Motion.
    MR. JOHN ELLIS: If the hon. Member for Durham will allow me to say so, I cannot congratulate him on the tone and temper in which he has addressed us. It seems to me that some of the expressions he let fall are hardly worthy of him, and I venture to think they do not add either to the dignity or efficiency of our debate. We all welcomed the tone in which the Prime Minister introduced this matter to us, and I am quite willing to accept his challenge and to consider it; as the hon. Member pointed out, it ought to be considered from deeper aspects than that of a particular Bill. The Prime Minister invited us to look at the matter on both sides of the House, and to remember that Parties at one time sit at your right hand and at another time at your left. That, I venture to say, is the point of view from which we shall regard the Motion of the Prime Minister. The more we do that the more we shall contribute to the dignity of the House of Commons, and enable it to transact its business efficiently and with greater rapidity. I venture to make a confession. The noble Lord the Secretary for India stood in a white sheet last night and told us that he had purged himself of his bi-metallic sins. I

    655
    venture to confess to the House of Commons that my two Parliamentary sins were voting for this kind of Resolution in 1893 and 1894. I have regretted that ever since, and so long as I am a Member of the House of Commons, I will never vote for such a Motion. These things work their own cure, and I believe that, from the Party point of view, the Resolution which I suppose will be carried to night or tomorrow will work evil to the Conservative Party throughout the land. I am an anti-Closure man. I have said before that I believe the use of the closure marks the Parliamentary incapacity of those concerned in its use, and they are not entitled to the respect on the part of the House of Commons to which in my judgment the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Wolver-hampton are entitled, the one having I piloted the Finance Act reforming the death duties, and the other the Parish Councils Act, without the aid of the Closure. The passing of Bills through this House is a matter of temper and tact, the drafting of Bills, and the volume of opinion behind them in the country. I was delighted to hear the Prime Minister confess frankly and fairly in the face of the House that there had been nothing worth calling Parliamentary obstruction with respect to this Bill, and I hope that, that having been said publicly in this House by time Minister who has charge of the Bill, we shall hear no charge of that kind in the country. No man has a right to go down to his constituents and say that there has been any obstruction in respect of this Bill, after that statement by the Prime Minister.
    The right hon. Gentleman gave us some information with regard to the number of days Bills had been in Committee. I maintain with absolute confidence that you cannot exhaust the matter in that way. It is not a matter of arithmetic. There are other elements and circumstances. What is the nature of this Bill? What has been its career in this House? What are the circumstances attendant upon its origin and introduction to the House? There has been no popular demand for the Bill. That is my first observation.
    656
    I am old enough to recollect very well the meetings that took place in 1869, prior to the introduction of the Bill of 1870. I had the honour to be chairman of one of the local authorities set up under that Bill. I remember there were meetings all over the country, where working men attended in thousands demanding a Bill. It was just after the enfranchisement of the working men in 1867. No such demand has been made today. You have had private meetings and meetings of Convocation. That was the origin and source of the Bill, and it is on an entirely different footing to the great measure of 1870. Then as regards the nature of the Bill, I cannot admit, with a leading journal, that this is a short and simple measure. I think I may claim to know something as to the drafting of Bills. It is sometimes my duty to look into them and to judge whether the Amendments will run into the framework. Having given my mind to the subject, I say deliberately that after I saw the Bill, so drafted and so worded, I sympathised with the Chairman of Committees trying to do his duty under the most arduous circumstances in regard to Amendments. If we could get at the mind of the Chairman in respect to this Bill, I am sure we would find that it was most difficult for him to think what Amendments were, or were not, in order. The Bill was so drawn that the Chairman might, with the best intentions in the world, make mistakes in his rulings. That should not be the case. The Amendments raised by the Bill were multitudinous, as it re-cast the whole system of local government. The Prime Minister last night said that we had been dealing in these discussions with anything but education. I have no doubt that education is the most paramount thing in the mind of the Prime. Minister, but he has lost sight of the manner in which the Bill touches many great, problems of local government, and more especially the rights of conscience. The number of Amendments is a proof, as was pointed out by my hon. friend below me, of the slovenly drafting of the Bill. In its passage through Committee no less than) 120 lines have been added to the Bill by Amendments, and if hon. Members take the trouble to go through.

    657
    every Clause and count the lines in the Bill they will find that just in proportion as the Committee was allowed full and free discussion, in that proportion the Bill has been amended. Words have been dropped out and others inserted, and these figures alone, I venture to say, form an ample and entire justification for every hour which has been spent in Committee on this Bill.
    I have some ground, and I think the House has some ground, for complaint of the conduct of the Bill and the action of the Prime Minister. When a Minister is conducting a great Bill like this, it is a most unwise thing for him during that process to make a great Party political speech outside the House. It re-acts on the minds of the Committee, and when the Prime Minister went down to Manchester and made that great speech, and said that the Bill would not do this, that, or the other thing, he was not treating the House of Commons quite fairly. [MINISTERIAL cries of "Oh, oh!" and "No."] I will explain. I do not mean to cast any reflection on the Prime Minister, except from a Parliamentary procedure point of view. The right hon. Gentleman should have put down his Amendments on the Paper, rather than go with them to a public platform. The old Parliamentary way was, when a Minister was conducting a Bill like this, never to open his mouth on a public platform in respect to it during its progress through Committee, but to put the Amendments he desired to see made down on the Paper. That, I maintain, contributes to the smooth passage of a Bill. I see the Chancellor of the Exchequer present. No one knows better than he that there is nothing like taking your fellow Members into your confidence and putting your Amendments on the Paper. In addition to that, I maintain that there has been a want of practical knowledge and experience on the part of those conducting the Bill, that has not contributed to its progress. The Prime Minister has been fair and reasonable, and I would be sorry to say anything in the least personally discourteous to him, but I venture to say that of the three Ministers conducting this great Bill not one of them has had a seat on a local authority in this country. They have had no practical experience. Two of them come from
    658
    beyond the Tweed, and I have noticed that Scotsmen find particular difficulty at times in understanding our religious difficulties. They are happily so free from that kind of thing north of the Tweed that they do not quite enter into the feelings of the Nonconformists especially. Therefore, I maintain that there has been, to some extent, a want of practical acquaintance with the subject with which these three Ministers are dealing. Sitting here in this corner, for the most part as a silent Member, I have been a most interested spectator of the proceedings in Committee. The House of Commons is after all a most interesting place. You see a good deal of human nature displayed, and if you watch the passage of a Bill through Committee you can gauge the capacity of those conducting it. Nothing has astonished me more than the great gulf on this Education Bill between what is going on in the House and what is going on outside. Why, the papers teem with letters from hon. Gentlemen opposite, but they are not followed up by speeches in the House. We see bishops and the clergy all writing on the supposition that we are conducting this Bill through the House in a spirit of sweet reasonableness, and that ample time has been allowed us to make Amendments. As we know here, the state of things has been very different. I venture to say that no case has been made out for the violent method proposed in the Resolution now before us. I believe the Bill comes without any due Parliamentary authority, and it is being passed with a want of appreciation, even on the part of those who support it, of its inimical effect on the great question of national education. I venture to say that the exercise of a little more time and patience on the part of those conducting the Bill would have been a much better method of securing the object they have at heart than this Resolution, which, to my mind, to use a rather vulgar term, bears the stamp that it comes from Birmingham, and has been adopted to degrade the House of Commons to the mere position of a voting machine.
    MR. WANKLYNsaid that he had had the honour in 1895 to be returned to Parliament for the city of Bradford on the question of the co-ordination of education and the support of the voluntary schools. The first speech he had delivered in the

    659
    House in 1897 was in support of denominational schools and of the system instituted by his great predecessor Mr. W. E. Forster. In 1900 he had again the honour to be sent to Parliament as a supporter of denominational schools, and his opponent, who was the Chairman of the Technical Instruction Committee of the West Riding, put education in the forefront of his programme. So far as his Parliamentary experience went, education, the coordination of education, and the placing of the voluntary schools on the rates, had been in the forefront of the battle always. It had been admitted by the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord that there had been no wanton obstruction. An hon. Member opposite, in the course of a debate, said that time was a Parliamentary weapon, and that they meant to use it. While there had been no wanton obstruction, and no personal abuse, it could not be denied that time had been used as a Parliamentary weapon, and that there had been a waste of time and words. That was within the common knowledge of all present. In the North of England a waste of words and a waste of time was regarded as a waste of money. It was lamentable that the heads of great Departments of the State and Ministers of the Crown should be detained in this House four nights a week for nine or ten months in the year till one or two in the morning by a mere waste of words. From a business stand-point the mode of existence led by Ministers of the Crown was not a wise one. In the case of a partner they would not regard that as a condition of life which was good for his health, which could not last under the strain. If in a private business the partners led such a life it would not be regarded as a very wise proceeding. The heads of the State were the partners of the country, and they would not be wise in allowing such a condition of affairs as now existed. The remedy for this evil, no doubt, in the first place, lay with the constituents of hon. Members, who could say to their Members, "You talk too much and waste the time of the country. If you have anything to say, say it in the fewest possible words." The remedy was with the country, but he also thought Ministers might move in the matter, because he was sure the country would support any step, in reason, which the Government took to
    660
    stop this waste of words, which in this House was a seriously increasing evil. That this was so was proved by the fact that the great newspapers were ceasing to report the debates of the House because they found that the public did not read them. The public were tired and weary of so much talk, and any suggestion put forward by Ministers to remedy the evil would have the full approval of the country. Ministers could limit the opportunity for talking; they could limit the session, and they could make the Twelve o'clock Rule a real Rule of the House. He would like to see it made an Eleven o'clock Rule. He did, not believe any good work was done after twelve o'clock at night. The attitude of the Opposition could hardly be taken seriously, because it was common knowledge that they welcomed the proposal to closure the Education Bill even more heartily than those who supported the Government, for the reason that they knew that in this House they could not support the statements they had made on public platforms, and because they could not bring up Members in any force t o oppose the Closure. Hon. Gentlemen opposite would of course go to the country and complain of this procedure, and therefore it was desirable to bring out these facts before the sess on terminated in order that their constituencies should be able to judge of the value of the complaints hon. Gentlemen opposite would make.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon Boroughs): The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has suggested many subjects for discussion winch may be very instructive, but winch are hardly relevant to the Question before the House. I think the hon. Gentleman is the only Member in the House who has suggested that in our opposition to this Bill there had been—he said he would not call it obstruction or an. abuse of the Rules of this House, but simply a waste of words. The Prime Minister, who is perhaps a better judge of obstruction than the hon. Gentleman, said he would not put it on the ground of obstruction at all. It is very remarkable that in a Resolution of this kind, which suggests the termination of a debate by violent means, there has been, in the

    661
    arguments in support of it, no charge at all of deliberate obstruction in the discussion of the Bill. A good deal has been said about the working of Parliament and its methods of working, and the hon. Member for the Partick Division of Lanark made some comparison with America, but in America difficulties of this sort have been met by referring local matters to local bodies, and when the hon. Member quotes America, I should like to know whether he is prepared to adopt the same practice of the devolution of local matters. So tar as Wales is concerned, it has regularly voted by a majority of four to one against this and what a difference it would have made in the progress of this Bill if the Welshmen had been left to settle it. The Government is forcing on different parts of the country measures which may or may not be applicable to England but which are certainly not applicable to Wales, and which they do not want, and that is the reason why they have got into this difficulty. The remedy for such a state of things as now exists is not violence, but the devolution of domestic matters to local Parliaments.
    On the ground of congestion I do not contend that the Government are not within their rights in proposing such a Resolution as this before the House. I have voted for such a Resolution once or twice, and I may have the honour to vote for one again, but the precedents quoted by the Prime Minister are not applicable to this case. The right hon. Gentleman quoted the Crimes Act, the Home Rule Bill, and the Evicted Tenants Bill. In two of those Bills there was the element of urgency, and there was a mandate for Home Rule. But will the Prime Minister say that this Parliament has been elected on the basis of sectarian education? That is the real difference. Or, take the case of urgency. Is the Education Bill a case of urgency like the Crimes Act? The conditions underlying the Education Bill have been in existence for years and years. The Prime Minister introduced a Bill in 1806 and dropped it; in 1899 he introduced another to deal with the same question and dropped it; he introduced another in 1900. It is only after six years that
    662
    the Prime Minister has suddenly found out that this is an urgent problem, to be dealt with in a certain way. I think the case against the Resolution is that which the Colonial Secretary made against a similar Resolution in 1893, that the Government were dealing with a problem in a way for which the country had given no mandate. The Colonial Secretary could not say that there was no mandate to deal with Home Rule; all that he could say was that the Government of that time had no mandate to deal with the details of the Bill in the way they proposed But in respect of the Education Bill it is a case of principle which has never been placed before the country. I shall be curious to hear the Colonial Secretary explain why in 1893 he considered it to be a case of wrecking the liberties of debate and degrading Parliament, while now he is supporting a Resolution as to a. Bill which was not even hinted at in the election which was sprung on the country in 1900. The Government then had a majority of 132,000 votes in the country—that was the total majority of the votes registered. The right hon. Gentleman said thousands and thousands of voters in a district in the North, Liberals and Radicals, not giving up their principles, were voting on one issue, and one issue alone, and according to the right hon. Gentleman that was the War. Having obtained their votes, having gone to the Midlands and said "You can venture as Liberals and Radicals to vote because there is no issue except the War," the Colonial Secretary now utilises votes obtained on other pretences to press through by Closure, by suppression of debate, a measure which he knows perfectly well not one of the thousands he appealed to ever gave a vote in support of. It has been said that England has voted by two to one in the House in favour of the Bill. I ask hon. Members opposite, will they venture to say, even the hon. Member for Central Bradford, the successor of Mr. Forster—("What a falling off was there!")—that two to' one of the electors in England were in favour of this Bill?
    MR. WANKLYN: In the recent municipal elections in Bradford twelve

    663
    Conservatives supporting the Bill were returned, as against five Radicals against it. The chairman of the Liberal Party came out on this Bill, and was thrown.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I think the hon. Member is not correct in his information, even about his own constituency. I am informed, at any rate on the authority of The Times—I go no higher than that—that in Bradford there was a win of two Liberal seats in the municipal contest. If there were to be a corresponding gain throughout the country, I should like to know what becomes of the huge majority that supports this Bill in the lobbies? But let us take the election addresses during the last General Election. I am not carrying the mandate principle too far, I do not say you can get an absolute mandate for every Bill you bring in, but I venture to say no important Bill, except in a case of urgency like the Crimes Act, has ever been introduced to the House, at any rate within the last thirty or forty years, without a responsible leader of the Party indicating before the General Election that he was in favour of the problem being dealt with in a certain way. What was the case in the last General Election? I have gone through the election addresses of some hon. Members. The Colonial Secretary never said a word about the education problem. His election address was full of South Africa. The Prime Minister never said a word about education, neither did the noble Lord the Member for Greenwich. The hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells, another light of the Church Party, never took his constituents into his confidence, and the right hon. Member for Oxford University never informed his clerical supporters that he intended to support a rate-aided Bill. I cannot find that even the hon. Member for Central Bradford ever said that he was in favour of giving rates for the support of denominational schools.
    MR. WANKLYN: I have said it since 1897.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Again, I accept the hon. Member's statement, and I say that this is not the only respect in which the hon. Member was singular.
    664
    The hon. Member, then, was the pioneer of this movement. Now the House has got the real parent of the Bill in Mr. Forster's successor. With that exception I can find no election address in which there was any reference to this Bill. There was no mandate for it, and the Government never took the electors into their confidence, and every indication that has been given since shows clearly that, at all events up to the present, it is a Bill that the electors are not convinced about. Have the Government then the right to curtail discussion which has been fruitful? Hon. Members have gone to their constituents and said that the Bill has been changed for the better up to the present, but, if hon. Members acknowledge that it has been changed for the better, they have to thank the Opposition for it as the result of discussion. But just as these changes are coming they are suddenly stopped. There is to be no more discussion, there are to be no more Kenyon-Slaney Amendments—and that is the real reason. If the Government had said to the electors, "We mean to abolish School Boards and to put voluntary schools on the rates, to subsidise definite dogmatic teaching, arid give a third control to the ratepayers," what would have happened? In Liverpool, it would have been "Vote for the Low Church." Suppose there had been a placard in Birmingham, "Vote for Collins and the Catechism," "Vote for the Colonial Secretary and true religion," how would Birmingham have regarded it? Even now the fate, not merely of the Ministry, but of the Empire, depends on this Bill. The Colonial Secretary has told his constituents, "If you do not get this Bill through, well, I will have to go, and there is an end of the British Empire." Of course, the right hon. Gentleman's constituents all believe that he is the very linchpin of the British Empire. But what did they do? They passed a series of five resolutions—I do not know that any one of them has yet been embodied in the Bill. At any rate, there was severe condemnation of this Bill. There was no mandate even from Birmingham for this Bill. The hon. Member for Central Bradford said, "Let us look at this as a business transaction." Let me take a similar view

    665
    of it. Take, if you like, a prospectus. You want money to develop a business in Africa; you go to the subscribers and get your money. Having got it, instead of using it for the African business, you use it to set up an opposition business next door to your African business. I do not know what business men would call such a transaction, but I know what the law would say. It would say it was obtaining money by false pretences and a fraudulent transaction. The Government have not treated this question fairly. They have brought in this Bill to put Christianity on the rates, for which they have no mandate. There has been a good deal of pressure brought to bear on the Government, and that is the real history of this Bill. There is not an hon. Member on either side of the House who ever dreamt of this Bill 1900. If they dreamt about it, it was grossly unfair of them not to tell their grossly unfair of them not to tell their constitutents at the time. What happened? Petitions from the clergy came pouring in by the thousand. This is how the Bishop of Truro recommended ome of the petitions—
    "Nobody was so open to pressure as the Cabinet, and he believed that on this question the Cabinet was not untied."
    Then the letter says something about the Colonial Seceretary—
    "It was not to be expected that men like Mr. Chamberlain, brilliant and able as they were, but who only knew the Church from the outside—"
    That is rather on the right hon. Gentleman. But they went on to bring their pressure to bear. Thousands of petitions came pouring, in because they knew a Bill was to be tabled this year dealing with education. Afterwards they find there is an optional Clause, and they issue another circular saying—
    "You succeeded in bringing influence to bear on the Government to bring in this Bill; now use the same influence again to strike our the optional Clause."
    Where did the pressure come from? Not from the constituencies, but from thousands of clergy who sent in petitions. I do not think it is fair. This is a matter which deals with millions of people in this country, and it is unfair to take one profession in the land and simply accept their dictation. The real reason for this Resolution is that suggested by the
    666
    Colonial Secretary with regard to the Government of 1893. He said—
    "You are afraid of discussion, the by-elections are going against you. I ask you to show me the secret reports of your electioneering agents with regard to this Bill."
    I wonder whether we dare suggest that same inquiry to him. If only the secret reports of the electioneering agents about this Bill could be tabled here. And the by-elections! The Government are afraid of going on because the pressure in the country is increasing. ["No."] What about the Cleveland Division and East Toxteth? [An HON. MEMBER: Devonport.] Oh, Devonport? a shilling a day.
    There is another reason, and that is the difficulty the Government are getting into with Amendments. They accepted an Amendment few days ago, and what has happened? They have been violently abused in language that I cannot help deprecating. It is really too strong. This is what the Church Times, the organ of the High Church party, said about them:—
    "On many a point since this measure was introduced the Government has shown itself capable of mismanagement, cowardice, and even imbecility, but on Friday it fairly eclipsed all precious records."
    That is the real reason—the feeling that is growing up amongst their own people. The Government are afraid of amending their own Bill. One ecclesiastic wrote the other day charging bishops with sharp practice. I do not know what the effect of dogmatic Christian teaching may be in the schools, but one thing is clear—it does not improve either tempers or manners. They call their leaders imbeciles and charge bishops with sharp practice. Really, we have never gone so far as that. It is clear that the country is against the measure [Cries of "No,"]; they never had an opportunity of considering it. The Colonial Secretary at the last election took the ratepayers by the hand and said to them, "Fix your eyes on South Africa; wicked Radical politicians will tell you to look around at your own affairs, but keep your eyes on that golden shore 6,000 miles away." They followed his advice, and while the poor man was looking ahead they robbed his orchard, destroyed some of his best fruit trees, and by this Bill the Government are distributing the fruit among the clergy at whose dictation the measure was introduced.
    MAJOR RASCH: I rise to support most respectfully the contention of my right hon. friend the Member for the Sleaford Division in reference to an extension of time for the discussion of Clause 13, because although I am bound to say I think the Government are perfectly right generally in their proposal, I think they are wrong in detail in this particular matter of finance. Very few people realise how important this matter is to the agricultural interest, how deadly in earnest we are about it, and how strongly we feel on the subject. What do we care about your Cowper-Temple Clause or your Kenyon-Slaney Amendment? The importance of the Bill, so far as we are concerned, is in its financial Clauses. I would remind my right hon. friend the Prime Minister that a good deal of water has run under the bridge since he made his statement on June 24th last, and that is the reason we want a little more time to discuss Clause 13. On June 24th the proposal he made was inadequate, but very fair; it was not sufficient then, it is by no means sufficient now. You have ruled, Sir, that we cannot go into the details of the Bill on this Motion, therefore I will simply say that what was good enough for us then is not good enough now. We find that the agricultural interest is stopped from speaking on these, matters which are of the most serious importance to us—by whom? By the very people who profess to be the best friends of the agricultural interest. I am bound to say that we have no fault to find with them—they are the friends of the agricultural interest, and we have supported them as such—except in this particular matter. I have shown my gratitude, because, although I voted against the First and Second Reading of the Bill, ever since the First Lord made his speech on the financial proposals on June 24th, giving us what we thought was adequate consideration, I have voted for every Amendment of the Government, without even looking at it to see what it all was. Gratitude is very well, but we must draw the line somewhere, and with all respect to the Government, and with every desire to support them, as I have done consistently on this Bill—with the exception of the two details to which I referred just now—
    668
    we draw it where we are stopped from laying before this House the fair and proper complaints of our people.
    SIR BRAMPTON GURDON: I need hardly assure hon. Members on the other side of the House that we shall be just as glad to get to the end of the Education Bill as they will. But if it is to be forced through the House by means of this very drastic Resolution there must be fair play. There must be no obstruction from the Government side of the House, there must be no talking against time, and if we are to proceed according to this Resolution, Members must make up their minds to come down to the House at the hour at which the Bill is appointed to be taken, and if an unimportant Motion is under discussion to dispose of it at once. I say this not in any controversial mood, but merely as an appeal to the honour of hon. Gentlemen on the other side. I ask whether it would be fair for the measure to be closured wholesale at the end of an evening, if we are not to begin punctually as soon as the House meets. I have had the curiosity to count the speakers on some of the Amendments discussed last week, and I find that on one Amendment out of eighteen speakers thirteen were on the opposite side of the House, while on another Amendment no fewer than twenty-four speakers out of twenty-six were from the same Party. I do not say that they were talking against time or obstructing; I merely mention it to show that all the speaking has not come from this side of the House. It will really be impossible to get the Bill through if every speech of five minutes on this side is followed by half a dozen of twenty minutes on the other side. The hon. Member for Central Bradford has suggested that it is open to the constituencies to tell Members that they talk too much. That is true, but they can go on telling them so, and it may be a great many years before they will be able to carry their threats into effect. I would suggest to certain Members on the other side, who shall be nameless, but who are rather given to lecturing us, a mode by which they may greatly facilitate the progress of this Bill. Remembering the old adage, "example is better than precept," I am not going to preach anything I do not

    669
    myself practise. I would suggest to these hon. Members, to whom I will not more specifically refer—their own consciences will tell them who are the guilty ones—that they should not rise oftener than do, that they should cut their speeches as short as I cut mine, and that they should try to be a little less dull. By so doing, they will give great satisfaction, not only to this side of the House, but equally to their own friends; they will give still more satisfaction to the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill, and they will give most satisfaction of all to the Chairman of Committees.
    Sir JOSEPH LEESE: I wish to make one point with regard to a certain paragraph in the Amendment of my right hon. friend. The Amendment reads—
    "…and, while assuming to establish a permanent system of national education, endows denominational teaching —"
    and so on. It, in fact, charges the Government with assuming for this Bill that it establishes a permanent system of education. I venture to say that whereas, in order to obtain success for any educational system whatever you must be perfectly certain that you will be backed up by popular co-operation, this Bill is not a Bill for popular co-operation, and that you are, in fact, legislating not for a majority but for a minority of the people of the country. I have here a Blue-book published not long ago, which gives certain striking figures to which I desire to draw the attention of the Government. It states that the average attendance of all the children in the national and Church of England schools throughout the country amounts to 1,887,000. The number in average attendance at the Roman Catholic schools is 257,000. This gives a total of 2,144,000 children in average attendance at the Church of ' England, the national and Catholic schools. I have added these together because it is generally assumed that the Church of England and the Catholics welcome this Bill and receive it with approbation. There are in average attendance at board schools 2,239,000 children, in British schools 250,000, and in Wesleyan schools 127,000, making in all a total of 2,580,000 children whose parents have not required that there should be denominational sectarian
    670
    teaching for their children. That being so, by this Bill you are legislating for a minority of the parents of the children. If you desire permanence for this Bill you are going a very curious way to obtain it, and you are forcing upon the country that which more than half of the parents of the country do not desire. I venture to say there has been abundant evidence to show that a majority of the parents are against denominational teaching, and at the recent bye elections the verdict has been against this Bill.
    MR. BROADHURSTAlthough the Education Bill is a measure that deeply affects the welfare of the people, the representatives of the people are not to be allowed free discussion upon it. Not only have many of our Amendments been closured, but our consciences as Nonconformists, especially in the rural districts, have been stirred in a manner which has not been equalled in the lifetime of any Member of the House. At the fag end of the session we are to have this Bill rushed through by the brute force of a majority elected for other purposes, with no indication whatever that the Government ever intended to deal root and branch with the education of the country. Here we are at the end of the session with only half the Bill passed, and we are to have this brutal application of superior numbers to destroy our efforts and opportunities to impress our opinions upon the various Clauses of this measure. In a Bill which is going to deal with the future education of this country, elementary education is by far the most important part of the system, because without sound elementary education, good secondary education is almost impossible. If we had had two sessions to deal with this great subject, it would not be too much having regard to its far reaching importance. All those who have studied the industries of the world, and taken note of the enormous advance made every year by invention and chemistry in its application to industry, must know that education is the great force of the future, and that unless this country is equipped in knowledge it will suffer as it is now suffering through the competition of the more educated nations. This fact would have made the Government pause

    671
    before making this reckless proposal which we are now discussing. A sound national system of education is more important to the British nation than the British Army. Efficiency in education is more important than efficiency at the War Office, and yet we are dealing with it as if tremendous issues were not involved, and the Government are proposing to cut short this discussion by using the Closure—that tremendous instrument for the destruction of representative government. We have had the School Board system growing up with brilliant success, and now the Government are proposing to supplant it with a system of Bumbledom detrimental to the interests of the people.
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That is not the question under debate.
    MR. BROADHURST: If I have transgressed it is through my folly in noticing remarks made by the other side. In my opinion, this is an iniquitous Motion and an outrageous Bill. We are going to be deprived of opportunities for full discussion by the brutalising application of mere numbers in the Division Lobby, and whatever may happen in consequence, all those who support this system of the destruction of popular government must be answerable for it. The Government are going to force upon an unwilling community instruction in dogmas which are repugnant to the feelings of one half of the inhabitants of the country. The schools are going to be subject to the whims of particular ministers of the Church of England in hundreds of parishes.
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is not entitled to make a Second Reading speech upon this Motion.
    MR. BROADHURST: Of course, Mr. Speaker, I bow to your ruling. It was only the strong personal feeling I have against this measure which led me into that particular line of argument. I protest against the application of this wholesale closure upon a matter which goes deep down into the soul of every Nonconformist in the country, especially in regard to our poorer neighbours in
    672
    the rural districts, where they will not have the same opportunity of defending themselves against these aggressions as men would in the great centres of industry. I detest the Bill, Mr. Speaker, and I look upon it as a monstrous measure, and I will do everything in my power that is legal to destroy the Bill. A more hateful measure to me was never introduced into the House of Commons, and this hateful process of the Closure is being applied to put an end to what is a reasonable and fair demand and almost a birthright—the right to discuss a measure of this kind so long as we discuss it within the limits of reason. We have not had sufficient time to discuss and improve the measure. We have been closured again and again, and no argument has been listened to, and now the whole thing is to be cut down, as it were at one blow, by the Government and their followers. Like the hon. Member for Central Bradford, they are ready to "execute" the public rights of the citizens of this country at the call of the Party Whip. The hon. Gentleman said "Let us go to our constituencies." I only wish that we were going next week. [Cries of "Divide."] If we did go, many hon. Members would find that their time for calling "Divide" had come to an end.
    MR. TOMKINSON: I could not help thinking when the hon. Member for Carnarvon was speaking that while there was no one perhaps who had addressed the House more frequently and at greater length than he had, there was no one against whom the charge could be less justly brought of having wasted the time and obstructed the proceedings of the House. I have one claim to address the House from the fact that I have not spoken one moment since we reassembled after the recess. On one occasion I did attempt to speak on the refusal of the schools for the purpose of political meetings, but the Closure was moved and I had not the opportunity. Therefore my conscience is perfectly clear as to having wasted the time or obstructed the proceedings of the House. Reference has been made to the opposition to this Bill, and a comparison drawn between the proceedings now and those in regard to the Home Rule Bill of 1893. I venture to submit

    673
    that the attitude of the opponents of the Home Rule Bill was wholly different and that the analogy breaks down. There was an avowed intention to wreck the Home Rule Bill altogether, and a repudiation of any idea of improving it in any way. No charge could be less true in regard to the Education Bill. Amendment after Amendment has been moved, and in many cases accepted, and these now form part of the Bill. I venture to say that, if on three great points Amendments moved by the Opposition had been accepted—first, the Amendment which would have continued the School Boards for a time; second, one that would have given the ratepayers two-thirds of the managers instead of one third; and third, one that would have left open the field for teachers, and done away with religious tests—they would have practically removed the objections to the Bill, which might, by this time, have been very far towards completion. My right hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition has said that there is no possible reason or pretext for hurry, and for the bringing to a conclusion of these debates, and I perfectly agree with him, yet I think there may be, in the minds of some hon. Members opposite, a reason for wishing to come to the end of them, namely, the attractions of certain other occupations in the country. When I think of the statement of my hon. friend the Member for Durham, of how the House has been bored by interminable debate. I would remind him of the lines written by a late Member of the House who was well known, and whose son is now an honoured Member of it. Describing his experience of the House of Commons, he said—
    "Last night in St. Stephen's so wearily sitting, (The Member for Boreham sustained the debate) Some pitying spirit that round me was flitting, Vouchsafed a sweet vision my pain to abate."†
    Then he went on to describe a very delightful run with the foxhounds as being to him the sweet vision which had entirely obscured the mace, the Speaker, and the House. I venture to think that the pleasures of the country form no little element in the desire of some hon. Members opposite to facilitate the conclusion of the debates on this Bill. We
    † The late Mr. Bromley Davenport's lines, entitled "The dream of the old Meltonian."
    674
    say boldly not only that the Government has no mandate for it, but that it is in direct opposition to the wishes of the country at the present moment. There is only one test by which you can judge, and upon every opportunity which the country has had of expressing an opinion, namely, by means of elections, the country has invariably pronounced against, and overwhelmingly against, the passage of the Bill. I do not think any hon. Member can look at the long list of honours published in the papers yesterday, and notice the total absence of any peerage conferred, without thinking that there was some reason for it. It is an open secret that the Government, to use a perfectly straightforward phrase did not dare to make vacancies in seats here for fear of losing seats. If there was one seat in the country which was believed to be more overwhelmingly Conservative and secure than another it was Sevenoaks, and yet the Party opposite came very near defeat in that constituency. We are, therefore, justified in saying not only that the Bill is unpopular, but that the country would pronounce very largely against it. That is one of the strongest arguments that can be brought forward against hurrying this debate to a conclusion. Something has been said as to what the attitude of the Colonial Secretary towards the Bill has been. Over and over again in the course of the last year or two he has assured the country that there was only one issue before it. I am sorry the right hon. Gentleman is not in his place at present. In connection with the election which took place at Dewsbury in January last, the right hon. Gentleman sent the following message in favour of the Unionist candidate:—
    "Tell Mr. Haley that I am watching with great interest the gallant fight that he is making, and wish to remind the electors of the Dewsbury Parlimentary Borough that in this election patriotism comes before partisanship, and that this is no contest between Liberals and Conservatives, that there are only two parties—those who are for their country, and those who are for the Boers."
    Nothing could be more direct than that definition as to what the question was. I have only to say that this Education Bill was never before the country. I have received protest after protest against it, and I have not had a single Petition in favour of it so far as I remember. I

    675
    am confident that, if my constituency were appealed to tomorrow it would give me a larger majority than I had on the last occasion.
    MR. PRIESTLEY: I think that possibly, though a comparatively new Member of this House, there is some justification for my offering a very brief, but very emphatic, protest against what I myself consider the unconstitutional and unnecessary proposals of the First Lord. I do not wish to display any presumption in this antagonism, but I hope that even as a young Member of the House I have as great a desire for the true welfare of Parliamentary debate as more experienced Members, or the Leader of the House. I think these proposals are not only unfair to the country, but impolitic from the highest point of view. In reading the great debates of past times we have, I think, always recognised the inestimable value of freedom of debate, and if a subject does not bear examination by free debate, you may depend upon it that there is something radically wrong. The question of education which we are now discussing is possibly the greatest we can discuss in this House. If the Government had received a mandate from the country to deal with the question, or if the Bill had been submitted in any shape or form for the consideration of the country, there might be some justification, after a reasonable time had been given for discussion, for closuring debate, but I think we may say without hesitation that the subject is one of far greater importance than the debates in the House would lead one to suppose. It seems to me that great issues have been at stake in connection with this education question. It is a question which will affect the future prosperity of millions of the people of this country; and when I hear more or less quibbling over small differences, it seems almost sad that this Parliament, which is the first in the world, should not avail itself of the opportunity which is now presented of dealing with the question in a more heroic manner than by wrangling over the question of religious instruction in our schools. I think the Party in Opposition are perfectly justified in saying that before the First Lord submitted proposals for crippling and practically destroying
    676
    legitimate debate he ought at least to have submitted in some shape or form the question to the country.
    It being half-past Seven of the clock, the Debate stood adjourned
    Debate to be resumed this evening.

  EVENING SITTING.

    EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL (PROCEDURE).
    Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment to Question [this day], "That the Proceedings in Committee and on Report of the Education (England and Wales) Bill (including Proceedings on the Financial Resolution relating thereto), shall, unless previously disposed of, be brought to a conclusion at the times and in the manner hereinafter mentioned: (a) The Proceedings in Committee on the remaining part of Clause 12, and on Clause 13, on Wednesday, 12th November; (b) The Proceedings on Clauses 14, 15, 16, and 17, on Thursday, 13th November; (c) The Proceedings on Clauses 18, 19, and 20, and on the Committee Stage of the Financial Resolution, on Friday, 14th November; (d) The Proceedings on Report of the Financial Resolution, and on the New Clause relating to the aid grant, on Monday. 17th November; (e) The Proceedings on the New Clauses relating to endowments, local authority's managers, and grouping, on Tuesday, 18th November; (f) The Proceedings on the New Clause relating to managers, and any other Government New Clauses, Schedules, Schedules, and any new Government Schedules, and any other Proceedings necessary to bring the Committee Stage to a conclusion, on Thursday, 20th November; (g)The Consideration of the Report shall be appointed for Tuesday, 25th November; and the Proceedings on Report on any New Clauses and on Amendments to Parts I. and II. of the Bill shall be brought to a conclusion on that day; (h) The Proceedings on Report on Amendments to Part III. of the Bill shall be brought to a conclusion on Thursday, 27th November; (i) The Proceedings on the Report of the Bill shall be concluded on Friday. 28th November.
    "At 11 P.M. on the said days, or, if the day is a Friday, at 4.30 P.M., the Chairman or Speaker shall put forthwith the Question or Questions on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair, and shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice has been given, but no other Amendments, and on every Question necessary to dispose of the allotted Business.
    "In the case of new Clauses and Schedules, he shall put only the Question that such Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill.
    "Proceedings under this Order shall not be interrupted (except at an Afternoon Sitting at 7.30 P.M.) under the provisions of any Standing Order relating to Sittings of the House.
    "After the passing of this Order, on any day on winch any proceedings on the Education (England and Wales) Bill stand as the first Order of the Day, no dilatory Motion on the Bill, nor under Standing Order 17, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, shall be received unless moved by the Minister in charge of tin, Bill, and the Question on any such. Motion shall be put forthwith.
    "If Progress he repented the Chairman shall put this Order in force in any subsequent Sitting of the Committee."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
    Which Amendment was—
    "To leave out from the word 'That,' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, 'this House declines to entertain a proposal to restrict debate upon a measure which, since it vitally affects the whole working of local government and administration, and, while assuming to establish a permanent system of national education, endows denominational teaching out of the rates without securing full popular control, demands the most searching examination in every particular.'"—(Sir. Henry Campbell-Bannerman.)
    Question again proposed, "That the words to the end of line 6, stand part of the Question."
    MR.PRIESTLEY: At the interruption of the sitting I was addressing my remarks to an aspect of this question which I regard as of great importance. The debates so far as they have gone, the right hon. Gentleman will admit, have had a beneficial effect upon this Bill. Many of the Amendments have
    678
    come from his own supporters and many from hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House, and it is universally admitted that those Amendments in the main have improved the character of the Bill. Realising the vast importance of this Bill for twenty-five or thirty years to come, the effect it will have on generations; the enormous results it will have, beneficially or the reverse, is it unreasonable to have expected that the debate upon the system, for the purpose of benefiting the Bill, should have continued. I will ask in all fairness, supposing for the sake of argument the period required for thoroughly and efficiently discussing this measure was another six months. Why should we not spend that amount of time on it? Is it not our duty here to give our ability, energy, and time to the most thorough and capable discussion of this measure? Even if six months further time were required, we should, I think, have persevered until we had passed and placed upon the Statute-book the best edition of the measure the First Lord of the Treasury has introduced. Another reason I would advance for further discussion on this Bill, if the House would see its way to reject the Resolution and reject the Closure by compartments, is that this Bill is couched in extremely vague phraseology. It requires an expert to make common sense out of some parts of the Bill, and in the interests of the Bill itself, more time ought to be given to its discussion. I, like many other Members, ant personally interested in a part of this Bill, which interest will be seriously affected by those proposals if they are allowed to influence our discussions. I had the honour to introduce an Amendment last session relating to a branch of education which many of us regard as of great importance; an Amendment for the purpose of introducing into our national education the system of physical culture. The First Lord sympathised with my views on that question. I think his words were that he followed, with interest and with feelings of entire agreement, the views I expressed, and it is naturally rather irritating to find that there is no opportunity of introducing this matter into this Bill by way of a new Clause which has been put down, and which now there will be no opportunity of bringing

    679
    forward. That is one subject which the First Lord admitted was possibly at least as important as any other branch of education. I only use that as an illustration of the result of this unstatesmanlike manner of cutting short the discussion of a measure which will become law and affect the interest of education in this country for a considerable period. It is not, I trust, too late to hope that when this Bill has passed this House it may be dealt with in another place, and if that other place justifies its existence there is not the slightest doubt that it will consider the manner in which this Bill has been dealt with in this House is unconstitutional, and its authority and its power will be used for the purpose of rejecting it, and thus compel the Government to go to the country upon this question.
    MR. BOUSFILLD: Many who have listened to the course of this debate will admit that the reasons urged against this Motion by the Opposition are extremely thin. One reason given, however, is worthy of consideration. They say a Motion of this sort would put a great amount of power into the hands of the executive Government to curtail freedom of debate. But, Sir, hon. Gentlemen opposite are, to a large extent, disqualified from arguing that reason, owing to the occasions similar to this on which they found it necessary to take just such another step. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down referred to an Amendment in which he was interested, and which will be cut out from discussion owing to the operation of this Resolution. But such a point as that might be met on the present occasion by arrangement, and it could be met on a future occasion by a very slight alteration in our procedure. That is to say, when you are allotting time, one day for this Clause and another day for that, so as to make the best of the time, and distribute discussion so far as possible over the different parts of the it would be possible to distribute the time on those days among various Amendments, giving preference to those which were of most importance. That could be done by a very slight alteration in the powers under the Standing Order. But with regard to those who complain that
    680
    their Amendments will be cut out, after all, the Opposition have the matter very much in their own hands, because the Government Amendments will take up very little time, and if the Opposition choose to consult among themselves and settle which Amendments they think are of primary importance, and see that those Amendments are brought forward in due course, there will be no difficulty in discussing them within the allotted time. The reasons upon which this Motion is resisted are very shortly put in the Notice Paper, and I see there are no less than seven Amendments which put in the forefront of their wording, "That the proposal of the Government is calculated to disgrace the House to the, level of a voting machine." I venture to think this House must either be a voting machine, a talking machine, or a working machine. It has to be something of a talking machine and something of a voting machine; but it is most important that it should be a working machine, and that is why Motions of this kind become at times necessary. We should stultify ourselves if we allowed ourselves to be overcome with our own verbosity. When we look at what is left of this Bill we see that it does not involve any questions of policy, but questions which might be discussed by a Standing Committee of this House in far less time than has been allotted by this Resolution. The Leader of the Opposition put forth as a reason for his Amendment the fact that this Bill endows denominational teaching. If one followed that up it would lead to a Second Reading debate. But I may point out to the House that the part that endows denominational teaching has already been passed, and everything that could be urged with regard to that has been urged in this House. What is left of the Bill? Clause 12 we have nearly got through, Clause 13 is simply a question of expenditure, Clause 14 relates to borrowing, Clause 15 to arrangements between the local authorities and councils, Clause 16 to Provisional Orders, and Clause 17 to overlapping, Clause 18 to the definition. So I say that if we had not the religious element in this, these are matters which would be dealt with in far less time by a Standing Committee than that allotted. We ought to look at this Motion from the point of view of getting

    681
    through our business. We ought, of course, to look jealously upon any suggestion of the Executive Government to curtail the freedom of discussion; but when we find ample time allotted under the Resolution—time in excess of what would be required by a Standing Committee—I think the Government is doing the right thing, and that the country will think the same.
    SIR WILLIAM HOLLAND: I have not hitherto taken any great part in the debate on this Bill, yet if I had followed the evident wishes of my constituents, I should have been speaking every day and several times a day, so strong is the interest they take in the measure. Nor can we be surprised when we consider that the subject is one of paramount importance. I cordially support the Amendment moved this afternoon by my right hon. friend the Leader of the Opposition. I think it is quite evident from the speeches already delivered, that this subject is of paramount importance. The proposals before the House are revolutionary in their character, and are fraught with momentous consequences to the welfare of our race. A false step taken now can only lie retraced later on slowly mid perhaps painfully, and therefore it follows that exactly in proportion as the Bill is important, and that a wise decision should be arrived at, so exactly in the same proportion is there need at the present time for the most careful and critical discussion of its provisions. We must all feel that it is a very unfortunate circumstance that the religious question should have had so much prominence given to it, but the fault of that does not rest with this side of the House, but rather at the door of the Government. I hold that no greater disservice could be done to the Church of England than to persist with the Bill in its present form; and I know that many members of that Church fully recognise that some of the proposals of the Bill are very unjust in their nature. I have received unsolicited communications to that effect from clergymen of the Church of England, who see that so long as this injustice is allowed to remain, so long will there be hostile influence at work in their respective localities. Rightly or wrongly, the people have got it into their heads that the clergy are somehow
    682
    pulling the wires of this Bill, that they have exerted their influence on the Government, and have taken an unfair advantage of the great majority which the Government obtained for a very different purpose. It has fallen to my lot to address a large number of meetings in different parts of the country, and, so far as I have been able to feel e pulse of those meetings, the people resent the idea of any Church putting their hands into the public purse without first obtaining the consent of the public at large who own that purse. There is no precedent for the action of the Government in attempting to force, by means of the Closure, through the House of Commons such a stupendous proposal as that we are now considering, not only without any pretence of a mandate from the country, but even in direct opposition to the wishes of the people in so far as we can interpret those wishes by recent by-elections. The volume of opposition to the Bill is very much greater than would appear from some of the newspapers. There was, for instance, that memorable Conference which took place in Birmingham, and which is destined to become historical. On that occasion there was a great speech by the Colonial Secretary which was of coin se fully reported; but there were a great many other speeches delivered on the same occasion not one of which was reported, so that we do not know the full extent of the hostility then manifested to the Bill. It would be bad enough on the part of the Government to persist with this Bill when they know that the country is against them; but if the Bill be a good Bill there is nothing to be lost by letting the light of day into its provisions, and by having the fullest and most complete debate in tins House. When the country sees the Closure applied in so ruthless a manner by the Prime Minister, and that coercion instead of argument is used to drive the Bill through the House, the opposition of the country will become greatly embittered. The use of the Closure will disincline the public from receiving this Bill with that measure of approval which we are anxious to see given to all Bills which pass this House. Our laws are only strong if they have the respect of those who are to obey them, and if

    683
    they are felt to be fair in their incidence, and administered in an impartial manner. But all these qualities will be lacking in the present Bill should it become an Act of Parliament. I know the Government take their stand on the Church on the one hand, and the Constitution on the other; but I venture to submit that they are not displaying a very constitutional spirit when they muzzle Parliament and defy the express wishes of the electors. It is true that the Government have made many changes in the measure, but these have been made under the stress of the debate, and are, for the most part, pro tanto, improvements; and it is not unreasonable to suppose that further improvements would have been made on the Bill if the Closure had not ruthlessly stopped debate. How often has it happened that discussion on one question has been burked on the ground that it could more properly take place on a later Clause; but when that Clause was reached nothing but the Closure awaited the House. In that way various questions which ought to have been dealt, with by the House have not received any consideration at all. I hold it is even more necessary that there should be a. Careful debate of the Education Bill than of the Home Rule Bill in 1893. I say this because on that occasion the then Opposition were able to rely on the House of Lords when the Bill was sent to them. In regard to this paticular measure the Liberals cannot rely on the House of Lords, because we know that when the Tories are in power there is practically only one legislative Assembly. We know that on the other side of the House hon. Members constantly claim that they have an unusual share of patriotism; and yet in this matter of education they have not patriotism enough to put before the country a truly national system of education, such as we on this side have continually advocated, both in this House and on the platform outside. I heartily support the Amendment, which I trust will meet with a large measure of acceptance.
    MR. COHEN: I should not on this occasion have risen to address the House were it not that I consider the issues upon which the House is called upon now to pronounce have scarcely been touched by the various speakers opposite.
    684
    We are not now debating the merits or demerits of the Education Bill. What the House of Commons has to decide this evening is whether the majority of this House is to prevail over the minority. [Opposition Cries of "Oh, oh."] Hon. Gentlemen opposite seem to me rather to ridicule, or to dissent from that doctrine; but I would venture to lay it down as a universal rule wholly without application to any particular measure, whether Home Rule, Education, the Ballot, Manhood Suffrage, or One-man-one-vote. If the opinion of the House of Commons—as it has unquestionably been in this instance—has been pronounced overwhelmingly by constant, almost growing majorities, then I say if that opinion is not to prevail in Parliamentary Government, there is an end to the House of Commons. I am aware that hon. Members opposite seem to think that they have a monopoly of purity of motive. [OPPOSTION cries of "No, no."] I am justified in saying that, because speaker after speaker has got up to declare that my friends on this side of the House are not obeying their conscientious convictions; that they are obeying the Party Whip, to carry out the illustration of the hon. Member who has just sat down. During the ten years I have been here I have never thought to impute motives of any kind. There is an end to what is called freedom of debate if we do not, on each side of the House, take for granted that the view which every Member for the time being expresses is that which he conscientiously believes; and therefore, when a majority of this House has over and over again expressed itself in favour of a particular issue that has to be decided, .I say it does not lie in the mouths of any right hon. or hon. Member to resist unduly and illegitimately the distinctly pronounced opinion of the overwhelming majority of the House of Commons. When the hon. Member for Rotherham said that this Bill had been closured by what he called brute force, let me say that there is no argument in that. I followed attentively these debates during both the Summer and the Autumn Sessions, and without impunging in the slightest degree the purity of the motives of hon. Gentlemen opposite, I say that most of the

    685
    speeches were repetitions of the argument which several Members had already advanced in behalf of the view placed before the House at the time. With all possible respect I venture to lay it down as a matter of incontrovertible fact that it does not lie in the mouth of any Member to say that issues which have been debated almost ad nauseam are stopped by brute force when we closure a particular issue, and ask the House to apply itself to the next Amendment. I have the honour to represent a constituency where a few friends who gave me their support at the last election have told me that in consequence of this Education Bill they will not be able to do so next time. Nevertheless, from not one of these do I apprehend the smallest dissent when I say that when, rightly or wrongly, the large majority of the House of Commons have decided it ought after reasonable debate to be allowed to pass, that this Bill is a right, a proper, and a beneficent Bill. We have to consider and decide whether the House of Commons is to act up to the traditions which have always resulted in free debate. If we come to a wrong conclusion, the nation has its remedy at the next election. Speaking for myself, I have not the least apprehension that the opinion of the nation, when it comes to know more about this Bill, when it has had its experience of it as an Act, will differ from that of the majority of the representatives.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: The First Lord in his adroit speech appealed to hon. Gentlemen on the left hand of the Speaker to remember that the time might come when they might be on the right of the Speaker, and to hon. Gentlemen on the right of the Speaker that the time might come when they would be on the left. That appeal cannot touch any man on the Irish Benches, for we are here permanently anchored on your left, Mr. Speaker, and, therefore, no such argument could have any force or weight with us. I am inclined to think that there is not much to be said for the precedents which have been employed by the Prime Minister for closuring the debate by compartments. They are all bad precedents, for they are all Irish precedents. This, therefore, is an epoch making occasion,
    686
    because it is the first time that an English Bill, in the discussion of which English Members have mainly taken part, has been treated by the method of summary closure. Accordingly, in these circumstances, I experience between the two contending parties what the ancient theologians used to describe as a "morose delectation." When I entered the House and heard the First Lord make his speech I really thought that instead of advancing the Education Bill he was arguing in favour of a Home Rule Bill for the nature of his speech—and a most conciliatory and statesmanlike speech it was,—was an argument to prove that this House is absolutely incapable in its present condition of dealing with any first-class measure according to the ordinary Rules of Debate. And I coupled the right hon. Gentleman's arguments with a passage from his speech at the Lord Mayor's banquet last night, in which he said:
    "I anticipate no insuperable difficulties in introducing into the whole British Empire that happy spirit of liberty and of patriotism which now so eminently distinguishes Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and our other great dependencies.'
    I thought to myself if that spirit of liberty and patriotism which prevailed in these portions of the British Empire is, in his view, to be extended all over the Empire, that really Ireland is, as I understand, a portion of the British Empire; and I began to wonder whether, out of the effects of the Mansion House banquet, and the promise of the extension of the liberty and patriotism which Canada, Australia, New Zealand and the Cape enjoy, the right hon. Gentleman was bent on conferring the benefits of Home Rule for Ireland.
    However, I have not come across the Channel for the purpose of making any ad captandem argument. I simply rise to state why I am here, for the purpose of taking part in the division tonight in support of the Government, and I am sorry that there are only a few Irish Members, Catholic or Protestant, present with me. I am neither a clerical nor an anti-clerical; I am a Catholic, and in this Bill, almost for the first time, I see some chance of applying the conditions of liberality and toleration to the schools which have been erected by the poorest of the poor amongst my exiled countrymen, drive

    687
    uneducated out of their own land. But with that love for education which distinguishes their race, they have, unaided by State grants, erected, mostly in your slums, these poor, wretched institutions which they call schools, but which to them represent primary, intermediate and university education. I deplore, when the cause of these schools has been put in jeopardy, the absence of so many of my colleagues on an occasion such as this. Let it not be suggested for one moment that we are not alive to the case which has been put by the Nonconformists, and by the Liberal Party, in regard to Church schools. I believe that so far as the Nonconformists of England are concerned, it is a misnomer to call them secularists. I believe they are as anxious as we are for religious education, but they are afraid lest, under the conditions which exist, as they are in a minority, proselytism should prevail if they send their children to State schools or Church schools, where religion is taught. The Catholics have, in order to preserve the religion of their children, erected separate schools, and the Nonconformists, with the same object of keeping intact the creed of their youth, want to drive out of the State schools any religion at all. Our modes are different, but our object is the same, viz., to preserve the religion of our forefathers; and let it not for a moment be supposed that we believe that the Nonconformists of England are in any degree slack or sluggish on such an issue. No, we believe that if they were in a majority they would act exactly as the Churchmen are doing to-day. [OPPOSITION cries of " No!"] But because they are in a minority they have had to invent a great principle—viz., the principle of secular education. For my part I do not pretend to understand the tenets of the Protestant denominations. [Ironical OPPOSITION cheers]. Well it really would be hard to expect that in addition to the other plagues which Martin Luther inflicted on the world, that we should be compelled to study Protestantism. All I maintain is this, that the Church people, having a majority, are anxious to have religion taught in the schools, and the Nonconformists, being in a minority, and believing that the
    688
    Church religion would be taught in the schools, are anxious only on that ground to exclude religion from the schools. I do not believe that that is a secularist attitude, although it is so represented in Ireland; and from my experience of this House my opinion is that with the extension of the franchise the tone of the House in its treatment of religious questions instead of becoming lighter has become graver, and, I believe there is a deeper and more growing sense of religion extending throughout England than that which existed when I first knew this Parliament. Well, it is said that the Government do not venture to take up boldly, according to some of their organs, the necessity for religious education. I feel under no such disability whatever. I believe that the whole reason for these anarchist movements which have disturbed Europe and which have led to the assassination of the Presidents of the United States and the French Republic, have been due to the expulsion of God from the schools. I believe that the Government are doing a wise and a politic thing in insisting upon the right of the parent to have his children brought up in the religion of his fathers. When I was a boy I used to be taught that the reason for the prosperity of England was due entirely to the way in which the people of England honoured the Lord's Day. That was the teaching amongst us Catholics; and we were taught that although the English people were Protestants they had a blessing of that kind. Well, Sir, in Ireland at this moment we are watching this movement in favour of religions education in this country with deep emotion and pondering hearts. Some people allege that there is some bargain between us and the Government because a handful of Irishmen are going to vote with them tonight. If there were any bargain to be made I venture to say these Benches would not be so empty as they are. The Government do not want the handful of votes that we can give them; and my vote is given simply to testify to my own opinion and judgment that the Government are engaged upon a holy and righteous cause.
    Sir, it is said that the present Government are a Coercion Government, and that, as such, no Irish Member should be found in the Lobby associated with

    689
    them. They will be just as much a Coercion Government next year when they bring in the Irish Land Bill, and if it he no disgrace for us to support them next year in regard to land purchase it is certainly no disgrace to us this year to support them on the question of religions education. We are told, of course, that thereby we are alienating the Liberal Party. I wish for myself to thank all the Liberals to whom I am personally known for the kind and courteous attitude which they have always shown to myself; but I wish to say that, if by voting against religious education I could purchase Home Rule, I would not be prepared, even for the liberties of my country, to sacrifice the chances of salvation of the humblest Irish exile child. Sir, the Liberal Party are in a position of great difficulty. They have Lord Rosebery on their flank. We have had experience of him; and he is a nice man to go tiger hunting with. I would go tiger hunting with him as far as the Zoo, but, as the lawyers say, "not further or otherwise." He praised this Bill at one time, and when he thought he saw the constituencies of England going against him he ate his own words, as he ate them on Home Rule, and determined that this Bill should be fought to the death.[Cries of "Question, question."]
    MR. SPEAKER: I must say the hon. Member is getting very wide of the question. I allowed him considerable latitude; because I understood he was explaining his reasons for giving the vote which he proposes to give, but he is now going too far.
    MR. T. M. HEALY: I appreciate the narrowness of the discussion, and I will endeavour, Sir, to keep within your ruling. However, I do not desire to detain the House. [Cries of "Go on."] We may be told, of course, that in supporting the Closure, the Irish Members are setting an evil precedent for themselves. But the closure has ceased to have any terrors for us. You have closured everything we care about. An hon. Member referred earlier in the debate to the fact that formerly there was a very effective method of Closure—which he called, I think, "vocal closure"—before the compartmental method had been invented. What is the result of the change? We have gained
    690
    nearly everything for winch you tried to shout us down, and you have practically lost the freedom of your Parliament. All the measures which from 1874 to 1884 we used to be shouted down for advocating in this House—franchise, rent questions, local government questions, abolition of grand jury questions—in spite of all the shouting down they have now found places on the Statute Book. Practically the only matter which now interests us besides education—because the land question is going to be settled—and which remains to be settled, is the question of Home Rule itself. Therefore, so far as closure of debate is concerned, I say it has ceased to have any terrors for us, because, whenever you want to Closure us, you have no hesitation whatever in doing so. I am rather surprised that amongst the list of precedents given by the Prime Minister today he did not mention the action of Mr. Stansfield on July 2nd, 1888. The Government had a little Bill affecting Ireland called the Ulster Canal Bill. It transferred the Treasury charges of protecting the Ulster Canal to a Belfast company, and a few of us in this House opposed it. It was referred to a Select Committee, and when it came down on Report we put down some Amendments to it. Instead of allowing us to discuss the Report stage of that measure, which had never been debated in the House at all, after a long discussion on other private Bilk Mr. Stansfield got up and moved—
    "That inasmuch as this Bill has been fully considered by a Select Committee, this House declines to entertain the Amendments, which ought to have been brought before the Select Committee, and that the Bill be ordered to be read a third time."
    So that with regard to a local, petty Irish Bill affecting a canal, this House at the instance of a leading Liberal, did not hesitate to deprive us of a humble opportunity during Private Business to discuss the details and Clauses of that measure.
    Now, Sir, is it to be said that we are so much concerned in liberty of debate that when the Government propose to give us an opportunity, for the first time, of giving a really effectual vote on a subject on which we have seriously set our hearts and souls, we are, owing to this bugbear of Closure, to withhold our support from

    691
    them? I tried to inquire, before I made up my mind on the Closure question, how long, according to the ordinary methods of procedure, it would occupy if this Bill were allowed to continue its normal course, and I was informed by a very expert Liberal that it would take until March next. Is it to be said, looking at it even from a sublunary point of view, that with the promise to us of an Irish Land Bill as the capital measure of next session, as this Bill could not be finished until March next, and as there would then be necessary a recess between the two sessions, so that we could not possibly begin the next session before May or June—that our situation is so independent that we can afford to withhold support from the Government that is going to bring forward this Land Bill? I am very sorry myself to have to separate myself from those—especially my Welsh friends—with whom I usually act in this House; but it is perhaps not unworthy of consideration that it is really by their ingenuity, to a very great extent, that the present embarrassing position of affairs in regard to this Bill has been brought about. I gather that though the religion of the Welsh people, owing to the position of strength which the Nonconformists occupy on the County Councils of Wales, is not in the least danger; yet so strong is the feeling of affiliation between Welsh Nonconformists and their English brethren, that they have felt bound to give to their Nonconformist brethren in England the support which they have manifested throughout the months that have passed since the introduction of this Bill. If that has been their action, if Welshmen, out of their consideration for their co-religionists in England, have felt bound to take so strong a line, they will pardon me if, not merely for my own religion, but for men of my own race and my own blood who have been hunted out of their country, I have ventured to take up as strong a position on the other side; and, therefore, will give my support to this Motion when it is put from the Chair.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Mr. Speaker, in the course of this discussion one of the sneakers said that it was
    692
    understood that I was to reply upon the debate. I certainly cannot accept that statement of my attitude. I do desire to take a small part in this discussion, but I shall not dignify the remarks I have to make with the name of a reply on the debate—all the more because, after all, the issue is, as the last speech has illustrated, so narrow that there is very little to reply to. It must be remembered that in this matter both the two great Parties have a past. We are both tarred with the same brush. We have both supported Closure of the most drastic kind, and we have both opposed Closure, and, accordingly, the real principle which is at stake is a principle which is generally accepted. It is true that my right hon. friend the Member for the Sleaford Division and the hon. Member for Rushcliffe are still among the faithful found. They are still prepared to argue that any restriction of debate in this House is likely to destroy its usefulness and efficiency, but they will not deny that they stand alone, and that, whatever any of us on either side of the House may have said on previous occasions, we have all been brought by the necessities of the case to a similar conclusion—namely,—that, granted a sufficient emergency, closure, and drastic closure, may properly be applied; and accordingly, when we do bring forward a proposal which is undoubtedly a drastic closure, although I think myself it might be alleged against us that it is a little belated and ought to have been introduced some time ago—I admit it is a drastic form of closure—how is it met by the Leader of the Opposition? It is met by an Amendment which practically is an attempt in terms to anticipate the Third Reading of the Education Bill, and I am not in the least surprised that the hon. Gentleman who last spoke, in a speech which was undoubtedly very interesting and very weighty, and as to the sincerity of which I can assure him there is not the slightest doubt on the part of any Member of the House, who listened to him without discussing, in the abstract or as a matter of theory, whether closure is good or bad, argued at great length that the Bill from his point of view was a good Bill, and that, therefore, he was anxious to do all in his

    693
    power to further its passage. We quite understand, too, that right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite who think the Bill a bad Bill should do everything in their power to obstruct it.
    MR. JOHN ELLIS: It is admitted that there has been no obstruction.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I am not using the word, for the moment at any rate, in any sense that can by any possibility offend the susceptibilities of the hon. Member for Rusheliffe. I say it is perfectly natural for hon. Gentlemen opposite to do everything in their power to prevent the Bill from passing into law. The case, therefore, which we have to consider is not, in existing circumstances, whether or not closure in itself is a thing anathema maranatha, which is to be on all grounds opposed, but it is rather whether it is properly applicable in the present circumstances to the present Bill, and no doubt our conclusions on that point will largely depend upon the opinion we have of the merits of the Bill. But if right hon. or hon. Gentlemen opposite had confined themselves to that. I think we might have come to a conclusion many hours ago. We might have said: "We quite appreciate your position. We should no doubt take up the same position in your place. But in the House of Commons, according to all constitutional principles, the majority must rule, and the sooner we come to a division to see on which side the majority is the better." But right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite have not been content with that. They have sought to distinguish and differentiate. They have sought to show that, while it was perfectly reasonsable and proper, and in accordance with the liberties of debate and all the other principles which we all at times attempt to enforce, that the Home Rule Bill should be rudely closured when it was only partly discussed, that that is no reason at all why this Bill should be closured after a very much longer period has been given to its discussion than was given to the discussion of the Home Rule Bill. I propose, therefore, to meet them as briefly as I can upon their own ground. It is said that the character of the opposition to
    694
    the two Bills must be taken into account, and that it was very different. In this case the Leader of the Opposition said the Leader of the House insisted that there had not been any obstruction. My right hon. friend did not say so. What my right hon. friend said was that he put this upon the merits of a different issue altogether, and that it was quite unnecessary for him, in the circumstances, even to consider the question whether there had been obstruction or not. As far as my experience goes, whichever Party is in power always asserts that its Bills are obstructed—and probably they are. For my part, I do not sympathise with the sensitiveness of hon. Gentlemen opposite on this point. I will make them a present of the admission that I have myself obstructed Bills which I thought to be dangerous or obnoxious in one form or another. As long as the Rules of this House permit of obstruction, so long, in my opinion, both Parties alike will be justified in employing it. Whether We, in the interests of Parliamentary discussion, in the interests of Parliamentary discussion, in the interests of the honour and dignity of the House, should allow these opportunities, should extend and develop them, is another question altogether. But, so long as they exist, I am quite certain they will be employed. Obstruction is a word which, perhaps it is difficult to define and certainly in what I am going to say I am not going to use the word with any offensive intention or in any sense in which I would not be perfectly ready to have it applied to myself. I will take a point. I saw in The Times newspaper the other day a letter from the hon. Gentleman the Member for South Somerset who sits on the opposite side of this House. In that letter he says—
    "Liberal Members have been called to account by their Whips for not being inattendance to oppose the Bill word by word and line by line."
    I should like to know what is his definition of a policy which involves opposing a Bill which must have some good qualities, which has, as in this case, good qualities that have been universally admitted, word by word and line by line. Whether the opposition to this Bill is due to the instructions of the Liberal Whips, of course—
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANThese words were never used.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: They are used.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: By an individual Member. That is his interpretation.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Of course, it is open to the Leader of the Opposition to repudiate any of his followers. Surely it is open to me to quote these words quantum valeat as evidence of what has been developed in the sight of the whole country. I began by saying, when the Leader of the Opposition interrupted me, that whether these instructions were given by the Whips or not I, of course, could have no knowledge other than this which appears in this letter, but, whether they gave those instructions or not, it is certain that that policy has been followed. This Bill has been disputed by a very small minority of the House of Commons, line by line and word by word. I have never known, in the whole of my experience, so many Amendments put down upon any single Bill. The number of Amendments to this Bill is, I am certain, very much more numerous than the total number of Amendments upon the Home Rule Bill—I believe probably double that number. Legislation is impossible if you smother it by too many Amendments. You say that is not obstruction. Again I ask, will you give me a definition which will exclude the particular form of opposition to which we have been subjected? In the debates upon the closure of the Home Rule Bill, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire spoke several times, and, I am bound to say, I think I agree with almost every word he uttered upon that occasion, so far, at any rate, as it was general and did not apply to the particular Bill. As I have already explained, that Bill was at least as obnoxious to me as this Bill can be to hon. Members opposite. He made this statement, which has nothing to do with any particular Bill. He said: "In the course of my observation "—and the right hon. Gentleman is now one of the oldest Members of this House, and has almost unparalleled experience—"I have found that everything that can be said on a Clause can be well said in a day." In the case of this Bill, how many days did you occupy on Clause 7, how many days did you occupy on Clause 8, how many days have you occupied on Clause 12,
    696
    how many days would you occupy on all the remaining Clauses of the Bill if you had the chance? What do you say after the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, that everything that can be said can be well said in a day, what do you say of the proceedings of all the subsequent days? Were those proceedings obstructive? and if they were not obstructive, do, for goodness sake, tell us what description you would give of them. I make the comparison with the Home Rule Bill. You say that you have not been guilty of obstruction. I do not know. I should not, however, use the word guilty. The charge was not made against us by any responsible person that we obstructed the Home Rule Bill. Mr. Gladstone never made that charge in moving the Closure, and I am bound to say myself, I do not think it could have been justified. I do not remember, in the whole of my experience in the House, any lengthened debate in which there was so little repetition, not because —I am not going to take credit for any virtue I do not possess—we were not capable of repeating ourselves, if we had thought that would have advanced our purpose, but because the Bill gave us so many distinct opportunities that it really was not necessary to carry our opposition to that extent.
    The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition went on to say that in his recollection never had an Opposition more single-mindedly endeavoured to improve a Bill, and then—I think very unnecessarily—he heard me smile. I admit that I am of a cheerful disposition; I daresay I do smile when something amuses me. But that should not be made a charge across the Table. I will tell the right hon. Gentleman that what caused me to smile was his use of the word "single-minded." I should have said that in my experience there never was a less single-minded Opposition. I am not referring to anything outside this Bill, but upon this Bill what has happened? I do not, of course, count the Irish Members among the Opposition. The British Opposition consists, I think, of 187 Members. I believe that in a very large proportion of the divisions, less than 100 Members have voted with the Opposition. That we

    697
    know as a matter of common knowledge, but beyond that we are aware of the fact that some very important and influential members of the Opposition—probably a good many of the rank and file—do not share the views of the Leader of the Opposition with reference to this measure. [An HON. MEMBER: How many?] With regard to that I cannot say. In order that I may tell you that, the Leader of the Opposition must be good enough to produce those secret records of the Whips to which reference has been made at an earlier period of the evening. It does not matter. You cannot get over the facts. Out of a. total number on your side of, I think, 187, you can only bring up 100 to vote on ordinary divisions. [An HON. MEMBER: What is your majority?]
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: What proportion of the Government supporters have voted?
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I will be happy to give the right hen. Gentleman full information, and I need not even expose the secrets of our Whips in doing so. I will simply say that the Government have brought into the Lobby on all occasions, or almost on all occasions, enough of their followers to give them a majority of almost two to one. [Cries of "More, more."] I ant told that I have understated my case. I ought to have said on an average three to one. But I will not go on with that. I wish to refer to something, that is more important; this parenthesis is entirely due to the intervention of the Leader of the Opposition. The interruption had for its object to show that the Party that he leads had a single mind to endeavour to improve the Bill. Does he really expect us to believe that statement? Of course he does—I am sure he does. But I think he is too credulous. I do not think that those who have been most strenuous in opposition to the Bill will say that. I will not venture to challenge the Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs, who has taken a very prominent part in these debates, whether his object has not been to destroy the Bill. I do not blame him a bit, but I say that the general object of the Amendments which have been advocated with so much iteration has been to destroy the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman says that in
    698
    the Home Rule debates it was our object to destroy that Bill, whilst their object is not to destroy this Bill, but to improve it. I admit that our object was to destroy that Bill, and not to improve it, and I am not ashamed of it. It is the object of those who have taken a leading part in this business to destroy the Bill, and it is the object of the Leader of the Opposition to destroy the Government. Remember, I do not blame him, but why should he be ashamed of it? Again and again the issue which fie and his friends have raised upon this Bill and upon which I, for one, would only lie too happy, if other avocations permitted it, to go to the country, was this: whether or not, when the Government undertook the duty of introducing the Education Bill—with the object, as they stated, to improve education, to develop secondary education and coordinating edncation—they were bound, at the same time, to destroy the compromise of 1870, and secure advantages for the denominational schools. On that point we take one view and our opponents take another. We are closuring the debate because we take our view, and they are opposing us because they hold a different view. The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that the Closure on this occasion apparently was out of place because the Government had accepted many Amendments, and the hon. Member for the Rushcliffe Division said that the acceptance of these Amendments justified the continuance of this discussion. Just let us look impartially at what this very dangerous doctrine means. We are told that if we give way to Amendments we justify further discussion, even to the utmost limits. If, on the contrary, we say "We shall have the Bill as it stands," then we shall be accused of still more serious crimes. I confess, as a member of the Government—and I should say the same if I were in opposition—that I would prefer to be hanged for the first offence than be executed for the second. I do not think it is a wise course for an opponent to taunt the Government with having accepted Amendments. But, Sir, what are those Amendments? Are they important in the eyes of the Members opposite or are they not important? If they are important, as I think they are, why does not their opposition relax? Why do they continue to be as hostile now as they were before these important Amendments were accepted?
    MR. JOHN ELLIS: We want to improve the remaining Clauses.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: They want to improve the remaining Clauses! I am glad to have that ingenuous confession. As regards the Clauses that are passed there is nothing to say. I understand that as far as those Clauses are concerned, the hon. Gentleman is entirely satisfied. Still he recognises the great concessions that he has wrung from the reluctant Prime Minister. It is only these other Clauses, which we think contain nothing of importance compared with those which have been the subject of discussion, which he thinks it will be impossible to sufficiently discuss in the short time at our disposal.
    But now, Sir, again I go back to my parallel. You say that the fact that we have altered the Bill under the pressure of discussion justifies you in opposing the Closure now. What happened about the Home Rule Bill? Did we alter that Bill? Why, Sir, we absolutely reversed the principle on winch it was based: in the course of our discussion we absolutely changed the whole foundation of the Bill with regard to the representation of Ireland at Westminster. We altered the whole character of the Bill, and yet we were Closured after only a few Clauses had been discussed. I ant not complaining of our being closured then, but I put it to the right hon. Gentleman opposite —How, after that example, cant he, who supported the closure then, have the face to say that he justifies his opposition to closure now because, forsooth. we have given him certain Amendments, most of which were proposed on this side of the House, and which were most readily accepted by the Government, not to alter the principle of the Bill, but to make the principle and intention of the Bill more clear?
    Then I come to another question upon which hon. Gentlemen opposite have dwelt with great satisfaction. It appears that we have no mandate to deal with education. I was glad to find that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, and even, I think, the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, guarded themselves a little as to this. I cannot conceive any more unconstitutional doctrine than to say that Members of this House, elected for the statutory period of its existence, or such lesser period as circumstances may render
    700
    necessary.—[OPPOSITION laughter]—yes, as circumstances may render necessary—an adverse vote tonight, for instance. I say I cannot understand that any constitutionalist should say gentlemen elected under these conditions should be debarred during the term of their representation from dealing with any subject that was brought before them. That, at all events, is the principle upon which I have supposed that the House of Commons should always act, and to deny it in any way—I do not say the right hon. Gentleman, but some hon. Members in this debate have denied it—would be to turn every representative in this House into a mere delegate, and to destroy altogether the honourable character of our representation. Sir, the right hon. Gentleman went further. He quoted me. I really cannot say how grateful I am to the right hon. Gentleman and to others, and how much I appreciate the honour they do me in always raking up my speeches and in finding paragraphs to suit their immediate purpose. He took a part in that election, I believe, and had an opportunity of putting his case as against mine; and if he thought I restricted the main issue too much he had every opportunity of widening it, and, I believe, endeavoured to do so. But I made, in the course of that election, some twenty speeches within two or three weeks, and in different speeches I devoted myself to different branches of my subject. And, as a matter of common fairness, I might ask him to take the whole as representing my views, and not a single paragraph. The point he makes is that in talking to the miners, who, I am sorry to say, were not influenced by my oratory, because they returned a Member who is a follower of t he right hon. Gentleman—but in speaking to them I pointed out that many of their fellows in other districts had evidently changed their minds, and had done so because in their minds the main issue at the time was the settlement alter the War. I am not certain that that is not the main issue now. But in other speeches I spoke of a great number of social reforms with which I expected and hoped the Government would have to deal, and with many of them the Government have since dealt. In any case it is perfectly absurd, as I will show, for

    701
    the right hon. Gentleman—he did not do it at the time—as an afterthought, now to complain that we have no right to deal with education, because I, who was not the Prime Minister, but, speaking in my individual capacity, in a single speech out of twenty, said that the principal issue was the War. I say the right hon. Gentleman is the very last man to talk about mandates, and pretend that we have not a right to deal with the education question. Sir, we had this election, and we know what the result was. We came back here, and we presented to the House a King's Speech. And the first speech which the right hon. Gentleman made after the election was upon this king's Speech. And what did he say in the course of his remarks? He said:—
    "Then we are told that there is to be a measure for dealing with the law of education, and again there is the same charming vagueness. For myself, I am one who holds that we shall not fulfil the destiny of the nation, nor, indeed, shall we be able to maintain our position among the nations until a new spirit is breathed, not only into our system of education—primary education, secondary education. University education, technical, general, literary, and scientific education, but, what is more important, until a new spirit is breathed into the public sentiment regarding education. That being my feeling, I hope that this will be a large and sweeping measure, and the more drastic and progressive the changes it makes the more hearty support I shall give it."
    Now, Sir, is it not going almost beyond the common limits of Parliamentary debate for the right hon. Gentleman, who spoke in that way immediately after the election, now, years afterwards, to say that we have no mandate?
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: That is just what I did not say. The right hon. Gentleman has said I did not say it. I have never said that you have no mandate, or no right to introduce an Education Bill. What I said was that the fact that at the election the majority was obtained exclusively upon the War was an important factor to bear in mind when we considered what the opinion of the country was on the subject.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not think that was exactly what the right hon. Gentleman said, but I will not contest his statement. But again I make a comparison. They say we
    702
    fought in the last election upon the War, and that since then we have introduced other subjects. What did they fight upon in 1892? One hon. Gentleman—I forget who it was—quoted a passage from my right hon. friend the Prime Minister to the effect that that Parliament was essentially a Home Rule Parliament; and he seemed to think that the election of 1892 was fought in the country upon Home Rule. Nothing of the kind. The election of 1892 was fought, as we all know, upon the Newcastle programme, and the beauty of the Newcastle programme was that you could take any part you liked, and leave any part you liked. And accordingly every candidate chose that part of the Newcastle programme on which to fight which he thought was most suitable to his constituency. Consequently, in one part of the country you had a man fighting the election upon Local Option, another, in another part of the country, upon Welsh Disestablishment, and another on an Employers' Liability Bill. And there was no one, except the Irish Members, or Members who, like my right hon. friend the Member for the Montrose Burghs, took a very strong and special interest in Ireland, who made Home Rule any point in their speeches. Mr. Gladstone himself did not do so. I must explain what I mean by that. I do not mean that Mr. Gladstone did not refer to the great necessity of a delegation of power, the necessity for what he called Home Rule, but we challenged him again and again at that election in the most definite terms to say what he meant by Home Rule. We went much beyond that. We put before him at meeting after meeting two or three questions, especially as to what he intended to do with regard to the representation of the Irish in Parliament, and with regard to the financial relations between the two countries, and he refused to give us any information on either of those two important points. So that when we came into Parliament, I do not know whether any of his friends knew, but certainly as far as the Opposition were concerned, we had not the remotest idea what kind of a Bill he was going to introduce, how far it would approach what has sometimes been called the policy of national councils,

    703
    or how far it would be a drastic measure such as he ultimately did introduce. Therefore, I say, there is less reason for supposing that the country gave any mandate in that case than there is in the case to which the right hon. Gentleman referred. But, says the right hon. Gentleman, "The country gave you no mandate." We do not know that until the country is appealed to. But in the case of Mr. Gladstone and the Home Rule Bill we did know. We maintained throughout those discussions what the Opposition are maintaining now. We maintained that if you had a majority, a very small one, in this House, you had no majority in the country. There was no doubt about the accuracy of our prophecy. The accuracy of your prophecy is still to be fulfilled, and when I remember what hon. Gentlemen on those Benches said before the last general election—an election which somebody said tonight was sprung upon them, when, as a matter of fact, there was hardly a speaker upon any question who did not challenge us to go to the country—that if our majority was not entirely destroyed, at all events it would be reduced to the lowest limits, I confess I am not in the slightest degree alarmed at any predictions they make now.
    Then we are told that we have to consider the nature of the Bill. Yes, Sir. In the speeches which I made, and from which only a few quotations have been taken—I appeal to any one who is interested in the subject of obstruction in Parliament to read the whole of them—my contention was that when you were dealing with a great constitutional question you must proceed with greater caution than in any other case. Do hon. Members opposite pretend that this Bill compares in importance with a Bill which would have entirely altered the Constitution of the United Kingdom? Of course they may hold that opinion, but I cannot understand it. And I will say another thing. Suppose Home Rule had been carried, you would then have taken an irrevocable decision. No one can deny that if Home Rule were a sort of thing that you could try as an experiment, it would have a great many more supporters than it has at present. The one thing which weighed deeply on my mind, and,
    704
    I believe, on the minds of the most consistent supporters of Home Rule, was that it was a step which was full of danger, and which, if once taken, could never be withdrawn. As to this Bill, what have you been saying? You have been saying that when you come into power, which you will do, I suppose, some time or another in this or the next generation, you will revoke all we have done. And no doubt if you are in a majority you will have the power to do so, and, therefore, a mistake now, if it is a mistake that we are making, is nothing like so serious as a mistake in the case of the Home Rule Bill. I contend, therefore, that the whole weight of argument is in favour of giving a fuller discussion to a Homo Rule bill than you would give to any Bill affecting domestic legislation.
    I have already referred to what has been said about the feeling of the country. In connection with this, the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs has introduced an entirely new idea which, to my mind, is extremely interesting. He says the reason for this Closure, which he describes as sudden and unexpected, is that we are afraid of a split in our Party, and he gave as evidence of this approaching convulsion a certain meeting in Birmingham and certain language which lie quoted. I do not wish to say much about the meeting at Birmingham except this—that, if it was satisfactory to hon. Gentlemen opposite, I do assure them from the bottom of my heart that it was equally gratifying and satisfactory to me. And I am told—I do not know it as a fact—that in Birmingham, where this great revolution, rebellion, mutiny, revolt, as it has been described by some of the Opposition papers, has taken place, I am shortly to receive from my friends and fellow-citizens a very exceptional welcome. [OPPOSITION cries Of "Oh."] Do you object to that? [OPPOSITION cries of "Non-political," and An HON. MEMBER: "That is not generous."] I do not want to be ungenerous. In what way is what I say ungenerous?
    MR. TOULMIN: I said it was ungenerous, and I thought it was ungenerous, when the Liberals of Birmingham who are joining in this banquet have been given to understand that it is to be non-political, that you should introduce it here.
    Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not include the Liberals of Birmingham in what I am going to say, but what I have to say is that, as regards the Liberal Unionists and the Conservatives, who are the only people in regard to whom you profess to believe that there is revolt and dissatisfaction, I speak with confidence, and I know that I have not lost their support. That is my point. The idea that because in a great Party, on a complicated Bill, certain differences of opinion have arisen, and that we have, as we always do, in accordance with our usual practice, discussed them in a friendly manner—the idea that that is the commencement of a revolt or mutiny, or that even those who take a different view from me about that Bill are any more likely to join the Radical Party than they were before, is utterly absurd to anyone who knows the political life of Birmingham.
    But the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs also finds a reason for our fear in the language which he quoted—language, as far as I followed him, of personal abuse against the Government, and against, I think, he said, the Bishop of Truro.
    MR LLOYD-GEORGE: I quoted the Church Times.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I under stand the point of the hon. Gentleman is that, because the Church Times—I do not know whether the Church Times is ordinarily a supporter of the Government—[OPPOSITION cries of "Yes," and some MINISTERIAL cries of "No"]—uses strong language, I think too strong language, with regard to our imbecility and other faults, we have been frightened into fits, and have therefore proposed the closuring of this debate. The hon. Member introduced there a most striking and interesting theory. He said that these personalities were connected, he thought, with dogmatic instruction. That leads up to a very interesting problem. What I am led to believe is, that if any man muses scurrilous language towards me, if he attacks my character when he should only attack my political opinions, he must have been brought up in a denominational school. I have a conclusive argument against the theory
    706
    of the hon. Member. The hon. Member, according to "Dod's Parliamentary Companion," was brought up in a Church school. How, in these circumstances, can he explain the moderation and the courtesy of his language and the entire absence of any personality? The theory is ingenious, but I cannot think it will be generally accepted.
    After all, the Leader of the Opposition did make one statement which was not a comparison, but a positive statement. He said—although I think it was a little inconsistent both with his own action on a similar occasion, and with the rest of his speech—that this Motion takes away power from the House of Commons. If I thought that, I should certainly oppose it, but, in my opinion, it adds to the power of the House of Commons, and without some such Motion the House of Commons is reduced to a position of impotence. I again refer to the right hon. Gentleman opposite. On a previous occasion the right hon. Member for West Monmouth said—
    "The only question in this matter is, has there been a reasonable time given, in the opinion of reasonable men, for the discussion of this Bill? In my opinion everything else in this debate is beside the question."
    The right hon. Gentleman thought that twenty-eight days in Committee was a reasonable time for the Home Rule Bill. Surely, thirty-eight days in Committee is a reasonable time, in the opinion of reasonable men, for the discussion of an Education Bill. Then the right hon. Gentleman went on—
    "Is the House of Commons to be reduced to such impotence that a minority can so conduct their Opposition that no first-rate measure, if they choose to refuse it, be allowed to pass through the House Commons in a single session? That is practically the question."
    Yes, Sir, my right hon. friend, in his opening speech, pointed our—what cannot be denied—that the time taken, and to be taken, on this Bill will fill up every hour of a whole ordinary session of Parliament. If the Government of the day, with a Bill of this kind in hand, were to give up every moment of its time and not introduce any other measure of any kind, the whole time of an ordinary session would be taken up, even with the Closure; but with the time which we are about to give to this Bill it would be utterly in adequate—it would extend over more than

    707
    an ordinary session. I speak to both Parties, and although I do not expect Members opposite to support the closuring of this particular Bill, I ask them on the general question, do they think that that state of things can go on? I remember years ago I wrote an article in a newspaper, in which I said:
    "Suppose on a given Bill there are 500 Amendments. Suppose the Opposition which I assumed to he 300 in number, spoke each only five minutes on each Amendment; in that case not only would they take up the ordinary time of a whole session, including the tune for Supply, but a great deal more."
    ["Oh!"] This, of course, is given as an extreme illustration, but do not be too hasty to catch me up. Take another illustration. Suppose instead of 300 Members speaking each for five minutes you would have fifty Members speaking each for half an hour, and in this debate there are many Members who have spoken on comparatively unimportant Amendments for a great deal more titan half an hour. ["No, no."] What I have to insist upon is that, if either Party chooses, in existillg circumstances, they can, without the Closure, carry on any single Bill throughout the whole session. It is entirely a question of taste whether at a given time the Opposition will exercise its power or not. Is that a right position for the House of Commons to be placed in?
    I will now read my last quotation, and it is a quotation from the greatest Parliamentarian that this age, or, I believe, any age, has known. This is Mr. Gladstone, who in the course of the same debate said:
    "There is besides this great question another and still greater quest ion which lies at the very base, the root of our whole Parliamentarian system—the question whether the majority shall prevail. If the majority is not to prevail, our institutions instead of being the glory of the land will become a, mockery and imposture."
    Surely we all echo that statement of Mr. Gladstone's. We are a great democracy. Democracy means, of course, the power of the people; that, again, has to be interpreted as the power of the majority of the people for the time being. In an uncivilised condition of things the majority make a speedy end of the minority, and there is no move heard of them. In a civilised system we introduce representative institutions in order that the majority may be represented in Parliament, and that there they
    708
    may have the power by their vote to decide that which they might have decided by brute force. We substitute the vote for brute force. That is the whole object and intention of Parliamentary institutions, and I say that we are frustrating that intention and that object of our Parliamentary institutions, and we are bringing them to naught if we do not allow the majority to prevail. I will make the admission with some regret as to the Closure in 1892, because we are obliged to deal with a particular instance instead of dealing with the subject as a whole. We believe that we shall never really restore the efficiency of Parliament until we hare found some way by a general statute not applicable to a particular Party or a particular Bill, by which discussion may he brought to an end within a period which will he thought to be reasonable by reasonable men. For that purpose I have recommended a Parliamentary Committee—I should not object to see the Opposition in a majority on it—to which all Bills might, if necessary, be referred, in order that some period for reasonable discussion should be fixed. I regret that tins measure does not go far enough in the urgency of the case; but, not entertaining in regard to this Bill the objections which no doubt are honestly entertained by hon. Members opposite, I certainly give my vote without the slightest hesitation in favour of the Closure after this lengthened discussion, and I say that, if we were to have permitted it to go on any longer, we should, in Mr. Gladstone's words, have made the House of Commons and our Parliamentary institutions, which, after all, whatever our political opinion may be, we all unite in venerating, a mockery and an imposture.
    MR. ASQUITH: I think, Sir, that the House cannot help contrasting the tone of the speech in which the Prime Minister introduced this Motion, with some parts, at any rate, of that to which we have just listened. I earnestly hope—and I think it is a hope which will be shared by the great majority of the House without distinction of Party—that the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down will at any rate regret it calmer moments

    709
    that he should have referred to a farewell demonstration ["Oh"] which is about to be given [Cries of "Withdraw," and some interruption] by men of all shades and sections of political opinion—[Rene wed interruption.]
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The right hon. Gentleman has said nothing out of order.
    MR. ASQUITH (continuing): A demonstration which, I venture to say, is a tribute, and a splendid tribute, to the catholic and generous spirit in which public life in this country is conducted—as though it had any relevancy whatsoever to the question before us.
    MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I am sure the right hon. Gentleman would not wish to do me an injustice, and I really think his observation, although it might have been made before my explanation, is not fair after it. I did not complain of the interruption, which indicated to me that my remark might be interpreted as implying an assumption on my part that those Liberals who propose to attend the projected demonstration were in accord with my policy. That certainly was not my intention, and I immediately withdrew it. Perhaps I need not have referred to the demonstration at all, but it was very much in my mind as the latest exhibition of the friendliness of my fellow-citizens; and what I meant to say was that the friendliness which has so continually been accorded to me by my own people in Birmingham is a proof that at all events what is called the revolt has not got gone very far.
    MR. ASQUITH: My point is that the demonstration ought not to have been made use of in the present connection, and that attendance at it ought not to be treated as having any political significance whatsoever. However, I pass to the general policy of the Motion before the House. I quite admit that all of us who sit upon these From Benches are tarred with the same brush in this matter; we have all been parties in our time to proposing and opposing Motions of this kind. But the right hon. Gentleman has enunciated what appeared to the to be a very crude Parliamentary principle in regard to this matter. That
    710
    principle, as I understand it, is this: If you think a Bill is bad you may obstruct it; if good, you may closure it; and therefore the question whether or not the closure should in any given state of circumstances be applied depends, not upon the history of the Bill, not on the character of the opposition given to it, but upon whether or not the majority of the House think it to be a good Bill or a bad Bill. Mr. Gladstone said, and very justly, that the majority must prevail. So it must, but still an equally important thing is the manner and the spirit in which the majority should prevail. I venture to say—and this is the proposition I shall endeavour to demonstrate to the House—that, whether you look at this Motion from the point of view of Parliamentary precedent or of the special circumstances of this particular matter, the case for it is too slender to be eked out, even, as we have just now seen, by the great rhetorical ingenuity of the right hon. Gentleman.
    Let me for one moment refer to the precedents upon which both the Prime Minister and the Colonial Secretary relied. They are four in number. In 1887 there was the Crimes Act. There are many of us who opposed that Bill at the time with all the resistance in our power, and we opposed the Closure upon it. That Closure was proposed and was granted by Parliament upon one simple ground—salus populi suprema lex. The condition of Ireland was supposed to be such at the time that unless Parliament promptly placed in the hand of the Executive the exceptional powers proposed by the Bill, the maintenance of law and order and social peace could not be secured. No such case is attempted to be made for the present Bill. Then there is the precedent of 1888. In that year the closure was applied in the most drastic and summary fashion on the Bill for establishing what is called the Parnell Commission. Many of us on this side thought that a very high-handed and impolitic measure; but there, again, a specific and temporary emergency was being dealt with. The object of the Bill was to call into existence a temporary tribunal, with limited powers, for the particular purpose of inquiring into the truth or falsehood of certain accusations brought against Members of this House in a publication that was then notorious. But whether the

    711
    closure of that Bill was wise or unwise, it forms no precedent whatever for the closure of the Education Bill.
    Then we come to the cases which have been much more elaborated—those of the Home Rule Bill of 1893, and the Evicted Tenants Bill of 1894. Both were proceedings to which I, in common with many of my right hon. friends, was a party. The right hon. Gentleman just now relied very much upon the precedent of the Home Rule Bill. But is it a precedent at all? In the first place, the Parliament of 1892, whatever the right hon. Gentleman may say about the Newcastle programme, was elected specifically and expressly to deal with the question of Home Rule; and whether or not the Members of the majority swore allegiance to one or other of the items in that programme, I venture to say there was not a single Member on the Government side of the House at the time who had not pledged himself, not only to vote for Home Rule, but to make the support of Home Rule the very first of his Parliamentary duties. But that is not all. The right hon. Gentleman told us that many of the details of the Home Rule Bill actually presented to Parliament had not been before the constituencies. That is perfectly true. But I venture to say, and everyone who took part in those debates will bear me out, that there was not a single one of the great leading problems connected with Home Rule which had not been ventilated, controverted, debated, and examined over and over again, upon every platform and in every newspaper of the country during a period of at least seven years. Then, as to the Amendments to the Home Rule Bill—a large number of which were undoubtedly excluded by the application of the Closure—their object for the most part was, not to increase the efficiency of the measure, but avowedly and ostensibly to make it absurd, unworkable, and self-destructive.
    The remaining precedent is the closuring of the Evicted Tenants Bill of 1894. What have we to say to that? That was a purely temporary measure to deal with a particular emergency. My right hon. friend who was then Chief Secretary for Ireland will bear me out, I think, when I say that it dealt with a sum of £100,000 or £200,000 of public money. In the opinion of the Irish Executive of
    712
    the time it was a measure, the passing of which was absolutely essential to the maintenance of order in Ireland. It is ridiculous to say that that is any precedent for the present proposal. And here let me point out that in both of the cases in which closure by compartments was resorted to by a Liberal Government the House of Lords made very short shrift of the Bills. Have we any such prospect in this case? Why, Sir, I venture to say that when this Motion is carried, when this Bill is passed, if it is to be passed, the country will begin to realise that the most revolutionary thing it can do is to entrust a Conservative Government with a Parliamentary majority. For what happens? This Bill, which, as I shall show in a moment, was never presented to the country or considered by the country, or even dreamt of by serious politicians at the time of the General Election, is introduced into this House, and is then closured by compartments with the certainty that it will slide quietly and rapidly on well-oiled self-acting castors along the floor of the Second Chamber.
    But there is more than that to be said. If this Motion is adopted—and I construe the latter portion of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks in that sense—it will be a precedent for the permanent incorporation of this procedure of closure by compartments in our Parliamentary practice. If that procedure can be applied to this Bill, I do not hesitate to say that it can be applied to any Bill of which the imagination of man can conceive. What have you got here? You have got what is admitted by the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues to be a large and sweeping change not only in our educational but in our administrative system. Is it a change—and here I come to close quarters with the right hon. Gentleman—for which the country was prepared? I do not rely upon a single phrase in a single speech of the Colonial Secretary, but let me remind the House of what was said by a great and perfectly impartial authority not mixed up with the tumult and dust of our Parliamentary conflicts. What was said by the head of the English Church, the Archbishop of Canterbury, only five years ago? The Archbishop of Canterbury at that time warned the Church not to place themselves on what he called the slippery incline of rate aid.

    713
    He has now told us, in a recent authorized commentary upon that text, that he never dreamed at that moment, or, I suppose, for a considerable time afterwards, that any responsible Government in this country would propose to support denominational schools out of the rates while retaining their control in the hands of the Church. I will venture to refer to another authority—the Prime Minister himself. I am not going to refer to an election address or to election speeches, but to what I think is still more relevant to the pnrpose—a speech made by him after the election was over on November 10th, 1900, in Christ Church schoolroom, Manchester. The election was now over. The country knew perfectly well whom they had been voting for and what they had been voting for, and this is the advice which the Prime Mister then gave to the managers of voluntary schools in his own constituency. He said—
    "They had two great church schools in a high State of efficiency, but, as everybody knew who had followed educational controversy in England, there was no greater difficulty in the way of these schools which were not supported out Of the rates than the difficulty involved in keeping pace with the ever-glowing require-merits of modern education. They believed, as he believed, in the great, national necessity of maintaining the voluntary schools. They held that this necessity involved a corresponding effort on the part of those who supported the schools."
    What has become of the corresponding effort?
    "They had, of course, large support from Government sources, but they had not the advantage which the neighbouring Board Schools had Of being able to put their bands into the generous pockets of the ratepayer to carry out their duty."
    That was perfectly true; but is that the language of a statesman who had in his pocket, or in his pigeon-hole, or at the back of his mind, a scheme for giving rate aid to denominational schools? What would the right hon. Gentleman have said if he had had any such scheme, or had thought that the electors when they supported him had contemplated any such scheme as possible? He would have used very different language. He would have said, "Endure for a little time the intolerable strain. The streaks of dawn are in the horizon. There is a good time coming. There is a Government installed in power to which you have given a Parliamentary
    714
    majority for five or, it may he, seven years to come, and you may rely upon that Government to open for you the fertilising sluices of the rate-fed reservoir." No, Sir, it was because the right hon. Gentleman, in common with his supporters, and, I venture to say the great mass of electors in this country, had at that time no conception that any such scheme as this could possibly obtain Parliamentary sanction and support, that, he used the language to which I have referred.
    But the right hon. Gentleman has referred, as further justification for this Motion, to the Amendments which have been moved. I must confess that upon this matter I prefer the testimony of the Prime Minister, who has been present throughout the debate, and who has acquitted the Opposition throughout an these long discussions of anything in the nature of obstruction, to that of the right hon. Gentleman whom other ditties—I do not Halite him for it—have with, drawn from personal participation in these debates. But not only have the Amendments not been obstructive, but, as the Bill in its present form shows, they have been in the highest degree fruitful and remunerative. My hon. friend the Member for Elland at an earlier stage of the evening pointed out, that by Amendments to the 12 Clauses which had been discussed no less than 120 lines have been added. I will take two Clauses by way of illustration; and here let me remark first in reference to what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, that it is not a question of the number of days that you take over a Clause which determines the question whether or not it has been properly debated; the criterion is the extent, character, and value of the Amendments and additions made. If we are to go by the windier of days, I might remind the right hon. Gentleman, and some of those who sit behind him, of what took place in the autumn of 1893, when we were discussing what was described by all Parties as a purely non-controversial measure—the Parish Councils Bill. In that Bill, over Clause 13, the Opposition occupied six days, and over Clause 19 no less than seven days, and no one has ever suggested that either of those Clauses contained anything, either expressly

    715
    or by inference one-tenth part as controversial as heaps of the points which bristle in almost every one of the Clauses of this Bill. But, leaving that aside, let me remind the House simply of what has overtaken two of the Clauses of the present Bill. First of all, the second Clause, a very important one, which deals with higher education, when the Bill was introduced was purely permissive both as regards the adoption of the powers and as regards the expenditure of the whisky money supplied by the State as the Parliamentary contribution for higher education. That Clause occupied nearly a week in discussion, but it has emerged in a shape, both as regards powers and expenditure, which is practically mandatory. I say that the House of Commons occupied that week in a thoroughly businesslike manner. Let me take one other illustration, the eighth Clause, which I suppose has taken a larger amount of discussion in point of time and of the number of speeches and Amendments than any other Clause of the Bill. Am I exaggerating when I say that in the course of the ten days it occupied it has been completely transformed? This Clause, which in the shape in which we now see it is hardly recognisable by its own parents, embraces the Kenyon-Slaney Amendment, which has given so much trouble outside, and. which I think my hon. friend the Member for Carnarvon was not unduly uncharitable in suggesting was possibly the inducement to this wholesale closure. If you look at the Bill and the work which has actually been done upon it, I venture to say not only that the Amendments proposed have been consistent for the most part with the scope and objects of the Bill, but that the Amendments which the Government and the majority of the House have adopted are to the infinite improvement of the measure itself. Notwithstanding the sneer of the Colonial Secretary, I wish to ask the House of Commons, as a deliberative Assembly, why should not the same process be applied to the remaining Clauses of the Bill? Is there any more reason to think that they in their original form embody infallible wisdom than to think so in the case of those
    716
    Clauses which have been so largely transformed by their authors? There is no case whatsoever made out for the Closure of the discussion of those Clauses and I will add this—which, from the point of view both of the efficiency and dignity of the House, is not an unimportant consideration—that if you wish to make this Bill, as you profess, a workable scheme, if it is to be the basis of a permanent solution of the problem of national education, you cannot do a greater disservice to it, you cannot at the outset more effectually over cloud the prospect, than by forcing it through this House, in which alone the representatives of popular opinion can be heard, by arbitrary and drastic measures such as those which are now proposed.
    I venture to say that until tins debate, whether you look back to the precedents of the past or to the reason of the thing, both the theory and the practice of the House of Commons have been that this procedure, which we all regret, which none of us like, which we admit to be inconsistent with the elementary rights and privileges of a debating assembly—this procedure has never been and ought not to be resorted to except in one or two cases, in a case of extreme emergency in the interests of public order, or in the case where a Bill, having been carefully considered, both by the country and by Parliamentary discussion, is ripe for a final decision. What are you doing here? You are violating those traditions; you are flying in the face of experience; you are establishing a precedent which, I venture to say, once established will be repeated and applied in cases which will be extremely unwelcome to the large majority of those who are going to vote for this Motion. You are going to apply this procedure, which has hitherto been confined within limited and rational bounds, to a Measure which is at once complex and revolutionary, which is neither urgent in its occasion nor temporary in its operation, as to which the country has never been consulted, against the hasty and ill-considered passage of which our Second Chamber affords us no effectual safeguard, and by so doing you are taking a step which is unwarranted by precedent, which is of the most dangerous example, and which ought not lightly to be adapted by the House of Commons.
    (11.28.) Question put.

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Denny, Colonel

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Dickinson, Robert Edmond

    Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Diekson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Dixon- Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

    Hoult, Joseph

    Arrol, Sir William

    Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

    Howard John (Kent, Faversham

    Atkinson, Rt. Hun. John

    Doughty, George

    Howard,J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Bain, Colonel James Robert

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Balwin, Alfred

    Dyke, Rt.Hon. Sir William Hart

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Kemp, George

    Barry,Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

    Fardell, Sir T. George

    Kennaway, Rt. Hn.Sir John H.

    Bartley, George C. T.

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Kennedy Patrick James

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir. J. (Manc'r

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Keswick, William

    Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.

    Finch, George H.

    Kimber, Henry

    Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Bignold, Arthur

    Firbank. Sir Joseph Thomas

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Bigwood. James

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Fison, Frederick William

    Lawrence, Sir. Joseph (Monm'th

    Bond, Edward

    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Lawson, John Grant

    Bonsfield, William Robert

    Fletcher. Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

    Flower, Ernest

    Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm

    Brassey, Albert

    Forster, Henry William

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Brodriek, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Gardner, Ernest

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Gartit, William

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

    Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (City of Loud.

    Llewellyn, Evan Henry

    Brymer, William Ernest

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Bull, William James

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

    Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham)

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol,S

    Butcher, John George

    Gosehen, Hon. George Joachim

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Carew, James Laurence

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lawestoft

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Greene, Sir E W (Bury S Edm'nds

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Cavendish, R. E. (N. Lanes.)

    Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

    Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

    Cavendish, V. C. W.(Derbyshire

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Gretton, John

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    M'Arthur. Charles (Liverpool)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

    Groves, James Grimble

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Worc.

    Guest, Hon. Iver Churchill

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Chapman, Edward

    Hall, Edward Marshall

    Massey Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

    Charrington, Spencer

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Maxwell, WJ H. (Dumfriesshire

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Hanbury, Rt Hon. Robert Wm.

    Milvain, Thomas

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Morrison, James Archibald

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Morton, Arthur H Aylmer

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Helder, Augustus

    Mount, William Arthur

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Henderson, Sir Alexander

    Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

    Cust, Henry John C.

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Murray, Rt Hn. A Grahann (Bute

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Hickman, Sir Alfred

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Davenport. William Bromley-

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Myers, William Henry

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 284; Noes, 152. (Division List No. 496.)

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Tomlinson, Sir Wn. Edw. M.

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Rolleston, Sir John F. H.

    Tuke, Sir john Batty

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Tully, Jasper

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Valencia, Viscount

    O'Doherty, William

    Rutherford, John

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Walrond RtHn. Sir William H.

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Sassoon. Sir Edward Albert

    Wanklyn , James Leslie

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Seely, Maj.J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

    Warde Colonel C. E.

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Percy, Earl

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunton

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

    Pilkington, Lieut-Col. Richard

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside

    Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Smith, Hon. F. W. D. (Strand)

    Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Spear, John Ward

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Purvis, Robert

    Stanley,Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

    Pym, C. Guy

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Randles, John S.

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Wodehouse, Rt.Hn.E. R. (Bath)

    Rankin, Sir James

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Stroyan, John

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    Rateliff, R. F.

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Wylie, Alexander

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Stunt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Talbot, Lord E (Chichester)

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Talbot, RtHnJ.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

    Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

    Renwick, George

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

    Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n, N

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Ritchie,Rt.Hn.Chas. Thomson

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Sir Alexander Acland

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Elibank, Master of

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Allan, Sir William (Gateshead)

    Ellis, John Edward

    Lloyd-George, David

    Allen ,CharlesP.(Glouc. Stroud

    Emmott, Alfred

    Lough, Thomas

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Evans, Sir Fraticis H (Maidstone

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Asquith,Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    M'Crae, George

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Fenwiek, Charles

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Bell, Richard

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Mather, Sir William

    Brigg, John

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Grant, Corrie

    Morley, Rt.Hon. John (Montrose

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

    Moss, Samuel

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Gurdon, Sir AV. Brampton

    Newnes, Sir George

    Burns, John

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

    Norman, Henry

    Burt, Thomas

    Harmsworth. R. Leicester

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Harwood, George

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Caldwell, James

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Palmer, George Wm. (Reading)

    Cameron, Robert

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Partington, Oswald

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

    Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Clumping, Francis Allston

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Perks, Robert William

    Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Philipps, John Wynford

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Price, Robert John

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Priestley Arthur

    Cremer, William Randal

    Jones,David Brymnor (Sw'nsea

    Reckitt, Harold James

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Kitson, Sir James

    Rigg Richard

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

    Lambert, George

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Langley, Batty

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Duncan, J. (Hastings)

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Dunn, Sir William

    Leng, Sir John

    Runcitnan, Walter

    Edwards, Frank

    Levy, Maurice

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cevela

    720

    721

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

    White, Luke (York, E.R.)

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Whiteley, George(York, W.R.)

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Shackleton, David James

    Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

    Tomkinson, James

    Wilson, Frea. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Toulmin, George

    Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.)

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Wallace, Robert

    Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh. N.

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Waltou, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)

    Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd

    Speneer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Strachey, Sir Edward.

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe

    Wason, Eugene

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Tennant, Harold John

    Weir, James Galloway

    Mr. Herbert Gladstone

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

    White, George (Norfolk)

    and Mr. William M'Arthur.

    SIR EDWARD STRACHEY (Somersetshire, S.)moved an Amendment will the object of reserving a day for the discussion of Clause 13. If the Amendment was not accepted by the Prime Minister, the effect would be that there would not be adequate time left for the discussion of Clause 13, which contained the financial provisions of the Bill. He appealed to county Members, the great majority of whom sat on the Government Benches to support the Amendment. They had, in season and out of season, reiterated the statement that they were the protectors of the ratepayers in their districts. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford had on the Paper an Amendment to Clause 13 proposing to leave out "expenses of a Council under this Act," and to insert "expenditure out of rates under this Act shall in no case exceed one-fourth of the whole expenditure on education by the Education Authority, and the expenses of that authority." It was very doubtful whether that Amendment would be discussed at all if the First Lord's proposal remained as it now stood. The right hon. Gentleman's Amendment had the unanimous support of the Central Chamber of Agriculture. All that hon. Members representing agricultural districts asked at present was that ample time should be allowed for the discussion of the Clause on Thursday next instead of its being guillotined on Wednesday. He ventured to think that the Education Rate would press heavily indeed on the occupiers of houses and land, and especially those occupying small farms, who at present often paid no Education Rate at all. Under Clause 2
    722
    of the Bill as it now stood it was obligatory that the County Council should provide higher education, and also that they should provide training colleges for teachers. The duty of providing training colleges was one which the Government should not place on small farmers and the occupiers of small houses in the rural districts. He appealed to the Government to consider whether the rating proposal in the Bill was really a fair one to the agricultural population. He hoped they would at least give a day to country Members to bring their case before the House, and to ask for fair treatment for occupiers of houses in town or country as well as occupiers of land. He begged to move.
    Amendment proposed to thequestion—
    "To leave out the words in line 7, and insert the words 'on Wednesday the 12th November, and on Clause 13 on Thursday the 13th November.'"—(Sir Edward Strachey.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
    MR. CHAPLINsupported the Amendment of his hon. friend. Clause 13, he said, dealt with the whole question of the expenses of the Bill, and surely it was not unreasonable to ask that a day should be given for the discussion of its provisions. He reminded the House in the first instance that the question of expenses had not yet been discussed at all in the House in the whole of these proceedings, and secondly, that unless they were able to obtain the opportunity

    723
    tomorrow, there would never be any opportunity, so far as he could see, for discussing that branch of the question. It was certain that, under the closure proposal of his right hon. friend, the Clause could never be reached on the Report stage, and as far as he could form an opinion of the constitutional aspect of this question, the matter could never be discussed in the other House of Parliament. There were seventy-six Amendments on the Paper to Clause 13, and some of them were very important indeed. He might tell the House that such was the interest in the question to winch his own Amendment referred that, during the present day he had received fifty letters and telegrams from all parts of the country asking him to proceed with it. There was immense interest felt on the subject, because the people were afraid that the charge on the rates in the course of a year or two would be infinitely larger than many Members had ever thought of. The agricultural Members wished to have an opportunity of taking the sense of Parliament on the question as to how far it was right that the expenses of a great national object should be borne by the local rates at all.
    SIR CHARLES DILKEasked the Prime Minister whether having regard to sub-Clauses (a), (c), and (d) in Clause 13, the House even yet knew the full financial proposals of the Government. Had not the Government still revelations to make with regard to their finance which would affect the consideration of sub-Clauses (a), (c), and (d)?
    SIR FORTESCUE FLANNERYsaid that the First Lord indicated that Clauses 12 and 13 would be closured on the morrow. He wished to ask his right hon. friend whether the discussion on Clause 12 could not be terminated at the afternoon sitting, leaving the whole of the evening sitting for Clause 13.
    MR. CHANNINGsaid that before the right hon. Gentleman answered the Member for Shipley,
    724
    he wished to support the Amendment, most strongly on a ground not yet brought before the House. There were very important Amendments down on the Paper standing in the name of the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education which affected the most vital interests of urban districts. They would alter the whole basis of rating, and had been put down on the Paper at the request of Members on both sides of the House. There was no doubt that that the question which would be raised by the Amendment of the right hon. Member for Sleaford was likely to be debated at some length—the question, he meant, of the relative share of the expenses to be borne from the local rates and by the Imperial Treasury. That was a matter which could not be debated in a few minutes, but would take several hours; and he asked the hon. Gentleman whether he could not give more time to the discussion of Clause 13, the more especially as his own proposal would operate as a guillotine to the Amendments of the Secretary to the Education Department.
    Mr. A. J. BALFOUR: I will relieve the fears of the hon. Gentleman at once in regard to the Amendments put down in the name of the Government by the hon. Member for Oxford University with which he agrees. These Amendments, the Closure notwithstanding, will be put to the House, and I trust, will be carried by the House, so that the hon. Gentleman's fears have no foundation. As to the remarks of the right hon. the Member for Forest of Dean, the Government have made no change whatever in their financial proposals, but I doubt whether in their proper aspect they can be discussed under Clause 13. They will come up under a new Clause which gives the Government grant, and under a Resolution which we have placed on the Paper. My hon. friend the Member for Shipley asks that Clause 12 should be thrashed out at the morning's sitting, but as I understand the matter, there is nothing controversial in it, and I do not think the difference with the Welsh Members will be difficult to settle. It

    725
    would be a great disappointment to me if any unexpected discussion took place on Clause 12 which prevented us from passing it at the morning's sitting. I hope that my right hon. friend the Member for Sleaford will have ample scope to discuss Clause 13 to-morrow. Questions affecting the ratepayers are not numerous in the Clause, though they may be important. But, if the House thinks it desirable, I have no objection to running (a) and (b) into one paragraph. That would have the effect of leaving two days for discussing the dregs of Clause 12 and for considering Clauses 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17. I quite agree that no question of great importance is raised on Clauses 14, 15, 16, and 17, and if my proposal meets the general view, it can be carried out without affecting the general scheme of business.
    MR. CHAPLINsaid that so far as he was concerned, lie would readily and gladly accept the right hon. Gentleman's offer.
    SIR EDWARD STRACHEYsaid that after what had been said by the right hon. the Member for Sleaford, and the offer of the First Lord having given him all he asked for, he would withdraw his Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    An Amendment made—
    "By leaving out from the word 'on,' in line 7, to the word 'Clauses,' in line 8, and by inserting, after the word 'Clauses,' the word '13.'"—(Sir Edward Strachey.)
    MR. RUNCIMANsaid he wished ed to move in paragraph (f), line 19, to omit the words "on Thursday, November 20th," in order to insert " Monday, 24th November." His object was to extend the time for the consideration of the new Clauses introduced by the Government, as well as the new Clauses proposed by private Members. The first of the new Government Clauses dealt with the Aid Grant of £900,000
    726
    on an entirely new principle; the next dealt with the managers; the next with endowments; and the next with grouping of schools; to say nothing of the large number of Amendments which had been put down in regard to the Schedules. There were no less than sixteen new points to be discussed in two days.
    Amendment proposed—
    "In line 19, to leave out the words 'Thursday, 20th,' and insert the words 'Monday, 24th.'"—(Mr. Runciman.)
    Question proposed—"That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not persist in this Amendment. He will see that we have given the whole of Monday the 17th, Tuesday the 18th, Wednesday the 19th, and Thursday the 20th, to the new Clauses. I think that is adequate time. Of course, she House might desire more time, but I do not think that anyone can say that the compartment is too limited or restricted in its scope. I would remind the House that I have framed this Resolution on the most extended scale compatible with bringing the proceedings on this Bill to an end before the Christmas holidays. If we extend that scale further the House will have to meet after the Christmas holidays to deal with the Bill. That, I think, would not be agreeable to the House generally, nor would it be desirable. Therefore, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not press for any extension of the period which we have given to the new Clauses, knowing that it would carry with it the protraction of the debates on this Bill until after Christmas.
    MR. TREVELYANsaid that sub-Section (f) provided that the proceedings on the new Clause relating to managers, and any other Government new Clauses, and any new Government schedules, and any other proceedings necessary to bring the Committee stage to a conclusion, should

    727
    terminate on Thursday, 20th November. Did that mean that there was to be no time between the Government new Clauses and the schedules for any possible discussion of private Members' Clauses?
    MR. LOUGHsaid he would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman to substitute Friday the 21st, for Thursday, the 20th. Friday was not allocated to any purpose, and he thought that the right hon. Gentleman had forgotten about it.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I do not think that the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman who has just spoken is one which it would be desirable for the House to accept. It is usual and desirable to leave a longer interval between the Committee stage and the Report stage than would he possible if the Committee stage were finished on Friday. As regards the question of the hon. Member for the Elland Division, there is nothing in this closure by compartment which would prevent private Members' Clauses coining on. All the Resolution says is that whether private Members' Clauses come on or not, the Government Clauses and schedules must be disposed of by a certain fixed date. If the Government Clauses are rapidly disposed of, there will then be an opportunity for discussing private Members' Clauses.
    MR. TREYELYANsaid that if the Government Clauses were got through, and if private Members' Clauses occupied the whole day, then there would be no discussion on the schedules.
    MR. CHARLES M'ARTHURasked if all the new Clauses which were to he introduced by the Government had yet been tabled.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, Sir, they have not all yet been tabled. I have left a certain margin, but there is nothing of any fundamental importance to be dealt with in the Clauses which
    728
    have yet to be tabled. There will be nothing in them that need alarm my hon. friend.
    MR. ALFRED HUTTONasked if the Clause as to the method of the appointment of managers had yet been tabled.
    MR A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, Sir, I think that is down.
    MR. ALFRED HUTTONasked if all the Government new Clauses would be taken during the Committee stage.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: My hope is that all the new Clauses of the Government will be dealt with in the Committee stage, but I do not like to give a pledge on the matter, as one cannot tell what the situation may be.
    MR. HELMEasked when the right hon. Gentleman would put on the Paper his proposal as to the relations of the Borough Councils in regard to the work they would have to do in the matter of secondary education as promised when Clause 3 was before the Committee.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not quite sure that I know what the hon. Gentleman refers to.
    MR. RUNCIMANasked if the right hon. Gentleman would not consider the advisability of allocating Friday, the 21st, to the schedules. They had not yet seen the new Clauses, and did not know how far they might be controversial, and several private Members' Clauses were of such importance as to require discussion. That would leave a fairly large amount of time between the Committee stage and the Report stage.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That would, I am afraid, be resented by the House.
    (12.21.) Question put.

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Fermisson, Rt Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Fierden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Lawson, John Grant

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Finch, George H.

    Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Firbank. Sir Joseph Thomas

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Arrol, Sir William

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Fison, Frederick William

    Llewellyn, Evan Henry

    Banos, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward. Algernon

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Bain, Colonel James Robert

    Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Forster, Henry William

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

    Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Loyd., Archie Kirkman

    Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey)

    Gardner. Ernest

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

    Garid, William

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H (City of Lond.

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

    Godson, Sir Angustus Frederick

    Macartney, Rt. Hn W G. Ellison

    Bignold, Arthur

    Gordon, Maj Evants-(T'rH'ml'ts

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Bigwooll, James

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachum

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    M'Killop, James (Strilingshire

    Bond, Edward

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Greene, Sir EW (B'ry S Edm'nds

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

    Boustield, William Robert

    Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury

    Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

    Milvain, Thomas

    Brassey, Albert

    Gretton, John

    Montagu, G (Huntingdon)

    Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Brown, Alexander H (Shropshire

    Groves, James Grimble

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

    Brymer, William Ernest

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Hambro, Charles Erie

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Carew, James Laurence

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Morrison, James Archibald

    Carvill. Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Morton, Arthur H. Aylmer

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

    Hardy, Laurence (Kent , Ashford

    Mount., William Arthur

    Cavendish, V.C. W (Derbyshire

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham (Bute

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J (Birm.

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Newdegate, Francis A. N.

    Chamberlain, Rt Hn J.A. (Worc.

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Chapman, Edward

    Health, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Clare, Octavins Leigh

    Heaton, John Henniker

    Nolan,Co1.John P. (Galway, N.)

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Henderson, Sir Alexander

    O'Doherty, William

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Hickman, Sir Alfred

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Corbett, A. Canieron (Glasgow)

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Cox. Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Hobhouse, Hemry (Somerset, E.

    Percy, Earl

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Cust, Henry John C.

    Houldsworth. Sir WM. Henry

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Davenport. William Bromley-

    Hoult, Joseph

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

    Howard, John (Kent Faversh'm

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Dickinson. Robert Edmond

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Pryce-Jones, Lieut-Col. Edward

    Dixon-Hartland. Sir Ered Dixon

    Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

    Purvis, Robert

    Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Pym C. Guy

    Doughty, George

    Jebb. Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Randles, John S.

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Johntstone, Heywood

    Rankin, Sir James

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Kemp, George

    Ratcliff, R. F.

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

    Reid, James(Greenock)

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Kennedy, Patrick James

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Renshaw. Charles Bine

    Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

    Keswick, William

    Renwick. George

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Kimber, Henry

    Ridley, Hon. M.W. (Stalybridge

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Fardell, Sir T. George

    Law, Andrew Bonar(Glasgow)

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    The House divided:—Ayes, 235; Noes, 103. (Division List No. 497.)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Welby, Sir Charles G.E. (Notts.

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Stroyan, .John

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Rutherford, John

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne

    Sadler. Col. Samuel Alexander

    Start, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Williams, Colonel R.(Dorset)

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Talbot, Rt Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

    Seely. Maj. J.E B. (Isle of Wight

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    Seton-Karr. Henry

    Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n,N

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Wylie, Alexander

    Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyneside

    Tully, Jasper

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

    Valentia, Viscount

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Vincent, Col. Sir C.E.H (Sheffi'ld

    Spear. John Ward

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

    Walrond. Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

    Sir Alexander Acland

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

    Warde, Colonel E. C.

    Hood and Mr. Anstruther

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Lambert, George

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    A1len, Charles P (Glouce., Stroud

    Langley, Batty

    Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

    Barran, Rowland Hirst

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Leese, Sin Joseph F.(Accrington

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Bell, Richard

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Brigg, John

    Leng, Sir John

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

    Levy, Maurice

    Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants

    Caldwell, James

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Lough, Thomas

    Taylor, Theodore C. (Radcliffe)

    Cawley, Frederick

    M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

    Tennant, Harold John

    Channing, Francis Allston

    M'Crae, George

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Craig, Robert

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

    Cremer, William Randall

    M 'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Thomas, David Alfred (M'rthyr

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Thomas, J A (Glamorgan Gower

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Edwards, Frank

    Moss, Samuel

    Tomkinson, James

    Elibank, Master of

    Newnes, Sir George

    Toulmin, George

    Emmott, Alfred

    Nussey, Thomas Wilans

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Partiugton, Oswald

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Fenwick, Charles

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Wason, Eugene

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

    Pease, J. A.(Saffron Walden)

    Weir, James Galloway

    Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

    Philipps, John Wynford

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Gordon, Sir W. Brampton

    Price, Robert John

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Priestley, Arthur

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Reckitt, Harold James

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Rigg, Richard

    Wilson , Fred W. (Norfolk, Mid.

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

    Samuel. S. M. (Whitechapel)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    kearley. Hudson E.

    Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

    Mr. Runciman and Mr.

    Kitson, Sir James

    Shackleton, David James

    Trevelyan.

    MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid the right hon. Gentleman would see that the 25th, 27th, and 28th were accounted for, but that no provision had been made for the 26th. He did not know if he might assume that four days were to be allocated to the Report stage.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, Sir.
    Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid that he would appeal to the right hon. Gentleman that, from the circumstances of the case, that time should be extended. The right hon. Gentleman had said that if any extension were made it would involve the Bill going over until after

    733
    Christmas. But he would like the right hon. Gentleman to explain more closely how that calculation had been arrived at. A great deal had been said about precedents, and he would quote a precedent which ought to have some effect on the right hon. Gentleman, if he still had an open mind on the question. On the Home Rule Bill, after ten days discussion on Report, a Motion for the Closure was introduced, and four subsequent days were allocated to that stage. If the proceedings on the Home Rule Bill were to beau authority in one direction they ought also to be an authority in another direction; and inasmuch as fourteen days were allocated to the Report stage on that Bill, some reasonable concession ought now to be made with reference to the corresponding stage of the Education Bill. This Bill had, up to the present, been remodelled to a considerable extent. He believed that, as a matter of fact, about half of the Bill as it stood was new. He therefore submitted that there ought to be art opportunity of reconsidering the various alterations which had been introduced; and to contend that four days were sufficient for that purpose was absurd. He therefore moved in line 23, to leave out "on that day" in order to insert "Friday, 28th November."
    Amendment proposed—
    "In line 23, to leave out the words 'that day,' and insert the words, 'Friday, 28th November.'"—(Mr. Eillis Griffith.)
    Question proposed—"That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I understand that the hon. Gentleman desires that
    734
    the period given under this Resolution to the Report stage should be extended, and that he bases his application on the proceedings on the Home Rule Bill. But the hon. Gentleman will remember that there are two very important differences between this Bill and the Home Rule Bill, which are relevant to the point he has raised. One of them is that, by common admission, the most important Clauses of this Bill, at any rate the most controversial Clauses, have been already dealt with at great length in Committee. That was not the case with the Home Rule Bill. For one reason or another, for which the Government or Opposition of the day might be to blame, many important questions were not discussed until the Report stage. That alone would be a reason for giving a smaller amount of time to the Report stage on this Bill than was given to the Report stage on the Home Rule Bill. I would also remind he hon. Gentleman that, in addition to many other differences, the Home Rule Bill consisted of twice the number of Clauses contained in the present Bill, which was a ground for granting a longer time to the Report stage. As far as I uderstood the hon. Gentleman, he did not dissent from the settled policy of the Government, that tins Bill is, if possible, to be brought to a conclusion before the Christmas holidays, but I really think that that cannot be done if his Amendment is accepted. I admit it is not easy to make a calcuation as much will depend on the action that will be taken in another place; but, making the best caculation I can as to the time likely to be occupied in another place in the

    735
    discussion of all the stages of this Bill, and leaving some time for the discussion in this House of any changes that may be made, I really cannot see that there is the smallest chance of our finishing all the stages of this Bill before December 19th; and I really think we should not make it later.
    MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid he hoped that the new proposals of the Government would be put down in good time.
    MR A. J. BALFOUR: I will do my very best, but the House will realise that we have been working under pressure.
    Question put and agreed to.
    (12.43.) Question put, "That the Proceedings in Committee and on Report of the Education (England and Wales) Bill (including Proceedings on the Financial Resolution relating thereto) shall, unless previously disposed of, be brought to a conclusion at the times and in the manner hereinafter mentioned:—
    "(a) The proceedings in Committee on the remaining part of Clause 12, and on Clauses 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17, on Thursday, 13th November; (b) The proceedings on Clauses 18, 19, and 20, and on the Committee stage of the Financial Resolution, on Friday 14th November; (c) The proceedings on Report of the Financial Resolution, and on the new Clause relating to the aid grant, on Monday 17th November; (d) The proceedings on the New Clauses relating to
    736
    endowments, local authority's managers, and grouping, on Tuesday 18th November; (e) The proceedings on the new Clause relating to managers, and any other Government new Clauses, on Schedules, and any new Government Schedules, and any other proceedings necessary to bring the Committee stage to a conclusion, on Thursday 20th November; (f) The consideration of the Report shall be appointed for Tuesday 25th November; and the proceedings on Report on any new Clauses and on Amendments to Parts I. and II. of the Bill shall be brought to a conclusion on that day; (g) The proceedings on Report on Amendments to Part III. of the Bill shall be brought to a conclusion on Thursday 27th November; (h) The proceedings on the Report of the Bill shall be concluded on Friday 28th November. At 11 P.M. on the said days, or, if the day is a Friday, at 4.30 P.M. the Chairman or Speaker shall put forthwith a Question or Questions on any Amendment or Motion already proposed from the Chair, and shall next proceed successively to put forthwith the Question on any Amendments moved by the Government of which notice has been given, but no other Amendments, and on every Question necessary to dispose of the allotted business. In the case of new Clauses and Schedules, he shall put only the Question that such Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill. Proceedings under this Order shall not be interrupted (except at an Afternoon Sitting at 7.30 P.M.) under the provisions of any Standing Order relating to Sittings of the House. After the passing of this Order, on any day on which any proceedings on the Education

    737
    (England and Wales) Bill stand as the first Order of the Day, no dilatory Motion on the Bill, nor under Standing Order 17, nor Motion to postpone a Clause, shall be received unless moved by the Minister in charge of the Bill, and the Question on any such Motion

    AYES.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Dyke. Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Hutton, John (Yorks N. R.)

    Agnew, Sir;Andrew Noel

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Fahey. Edmund. B. (Hants, W.)

    Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Jeffreys, Rt Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Arnold-Forster. Hugh O.

    Fardell, Sir T. George

    Johnstone, Heywood

    Arrol, Sir William,

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Kemp, George

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Fergosson. Rt Hn (Manc'r

    Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Kennedy, Patrick James

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

    Bain, Colonel James Robert

    Firbank, Sir. Joseph Thomas

    Keswick, William

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Fisher, William Hayes

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Balfour. Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

    Fison, Frederick William

    Law, Andrew Boner (Glasgow)

    Balfour. Capt. C.B. (Hornsey)

    Fitzroy Hon. Edward Algernon

    Lawience, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Flannery. Sir Forlescue

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Bignold, Arthur

    Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Lawson, John Grant

    Bigwood, James

    Forster, Henry William

    Lee, Arthurl H (Hants, Fareham

    Blundell. Colonel Henry

    Gambier, Ernest

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Bond, Edward

    Garfit, William

    Leigh-Bennett, Heresy Currie

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Gibbs. Hn. AGH (City of London

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

    Bowles, Capt. H. F.(Middlesex

    Godson, Sir. Augustus Frederick

    Llewellyn, Evan Henry

    Brassey, Albent

    Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH' ml'ts

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Goschen, Hon George Joachim

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

    Brookfirld, Colonel Montagu

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Brymer, William Ernest

    Greene, Sir EW (B'rySEdm'nds

    Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    Lucas, Reginald. J.(Portsmouth

    Carew. James Laurence

    Gretton, John

    Macartney, Rt Hn. W.G Ellison

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

    Groves, Jomes Grimble

    M'Arthur, Cherries (Liverpool)

    Clavendlsh. V.C.W. (Derbyshire

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Cecil. Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J.A. (Worc.

    Hardy. Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

    Milvain, Thomas

    Chapman, Edward

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Crare, Octavins Leigh

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Moon, Edward Robert Percy

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick George

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shrepshire)

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

    Collings, Bt. Hon. Jesse

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Morrison, James Archibald

    Corbett, A. Canieron (Glasgow)

    Heaton. John Henniker

    Mount, William Arthur

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Henderson, Sir Alexander

    Murray, Rt Hn A, Graham (Bute

    Cranborne. Viscount

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Cubitt, Hon. Henry

    Hickman, Sir Alfred

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    Cust, Henry John C.

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Newdgeate, Francis A. N.

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Hoare, Sir Samuel

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

    Hobhouse, Hentry (Somerset, E.)

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Dickinson, Robert, Edmond

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.

    Dorington, Rt.Hon. Sir John E.

    Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    O'Doherty, William

    Doughty, George

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Douglas, Rt, Hon. A. Akers-

    Hoult, Joseph

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    shall be put forthwith. If Progress be reported, the Chairman shall put this Order in force in any subsequent sitting of the Committee."—(Mr. Balfour.)
    The House divided:—Ayes, 222; Noes, 103. (Division List No. 498.)

    Percy, Earl

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Tully, Jasper

    Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Valentia, Viscount

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Smith, Abel H.(Hertford,East)

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Purvis, Robert

    Smith, HC (North'mb, Tyneside

    Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

    Pym, C. Guy

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Randles, John S.

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne

    Rankin, Sir James

    Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir Jan M.

    Wortley, Rt. Hn.C. B. Stuart-

    Renwick, George

    Stroyan, John

    Wrightson, Sir Thomas

    Ridlev, Hon. M.W. (Stalybridge

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Strurt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Talbot, Rt Hn J.G. (Oxf'd Univ.

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Taylor, Austin (East Toxteth)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Thompson, Dr EC (Monagh'n,N

    Sir Alexander Acland-

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Thornton,-Percy M.

    Hood and Mr. Anstruther.

    Rutherford, John

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    kearley, Hudson E.

    Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

    Allen, Charles P. (Gloue. Stroud

    kitson, Sir James

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Barran. Rowland Hirst

    Lambert, George

    Sloan, Thomas Henry

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Langley, Batty

    Soames, Arthur Wellesley

    Bell, Richard

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Brigg, John.

    Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

    Spencer, Rt. Hn C.R (Northants

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Caldwell, James

    Leng, Sir John

    Taylor, Theodore C.(Radcliffe)

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Levy, Maurice

    Tennant, Harold John

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Cawley, Frederick

    M'Crae, George

    Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    M'Laren, Sir Chas. Benjamin

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Thomas, J A (Glamorgan Gower

    Cremer, William Randal

    Markham, Arthur Basil

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Mather, Sir William

    Tomkinson, James

    Davies. Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

    Tonlmin, George

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Moss, Samuel

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Duncan, J. Hastings

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Edwards, Frank

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Elibank, Master of

    Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

    Wason, Eugene

    Emmott, Alfred

    Philipps, John Wynford

    Weir, James Galloway

    Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    White, George (Norfolk)

    Fenwick, Charles

    Price, Robert John

    White, Luke (York, E.R.)

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Priestley, Arthur

    Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

    Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

    Reckitt, Harold James

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Rigg, Richard

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Wilson, Fred W. (Norfolk, Mid.

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Wilson, John (Durham. Mid.)

    Helme, Norval Watson

    Runciman, Walter

    Woodhouse, Sir JT (Huddersf'd

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Samuel, Herbert L. (Cleveland)

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr.

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Shackleton, David James

    Herbert Gladstone and

    Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Mr. William M'Arthar.

    MR. SPEAKER,In pursuance of the Order of the House of the 16th October
    740
    last, adjourned the House without Question put.
    Adjourned at two minutes before One o'clock.