Sitting of 2 June 1902

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERE-TO COMPLIED WITH).
  MR. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, that, in the case of the following Bills, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—
  Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill.
  Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 3) Bill.
  Ordered, that the Bills be read a second time tomorrow.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (NO STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE).
  MR. SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, that, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, no Standing Orders are applicable, viz.:—
  Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 4) Bill.
  Ordered, that the Bill be read a second time tomorrow.

  BRISTOL WATER BILL [LORDS],
  NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL [LORDS],
  RENFREW HARBOUR BILL [LORDS],
  RHYMNEY RAILWAY BILL [LORDS],
  SOUTH-EASTERN AND LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAYS BILL [LORDS],
  TYNESIDE TRAMWAYS AND TRAM-ROADS BILL [LORDS].
  Read a second time and committed.

  LEAMINGTON CORPORATION BILL [BY ORDER].
  Read the third time, and passed.
  LONDON AND NORTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL [BY ORDER] (KING'S CONSENT SIGNIFIED).
  Read the third time, and passed.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (GAS) BILL,
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (GAS) BILL.
    Read the third time, and passed.

    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 13) BILL,
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 14) BILL,
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 15) BILL,
    LONDON (POPLAR) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
    Read a second time, and committed.

PETITIONS.
  CANAL TRAFFIC BILL.
  Petition from Bath in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Moorsholm cum Gerrick against; to lie upon the Table.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION.
  Petition from Otley, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  LICENSING BILL.
  Petitions in favour; From Camborne; and London; to lie upon the Table.
  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  Petitions against; From Sydenham; Retford; Bristol; Walsall; and Lichfield; to lie upon the Table.
  PLUMBERS' REGISTRATION BILL.
  Petition from Ashton-under-Lyne, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  VACCINATION PROSECUTIONS BILL.
  Petition from Keighley, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  SOUTH AFRICA.
  Copy presented, of Correspondence respecting Terms of Surrender of the Boer Forces in the Field [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  POLLING DISTRICTS (COUNTY OF SOUTHAMPTON).
  Copy presented, of Order made by the County Council of the County of Southampton altering certain Polling

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  Districts in the Andover Parliamentary Division [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSION (JUDICIAL RENTS).
  Copy presented, of Return of Judicial Rents fixed during the months of July to October, 1901 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACTS 1882 AND 1888.
  Copy presented, of Special Report by the Board of Trade under Section (1) of the Electric Lighting Act, 1888—Pokesdown Electric Lighting Provisional Order.
  [By Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  EAST INDIA (INDIA OFFICE SUPERANNUATION ALLOWANCE).
  Copy presented, of Minute by the Secretary of State for India, stating the

  Name of Steamship Company

  With what Government, Home or Colonial, the Contracts are made.

  Ports from and to which the Mails were carried.

  Distance in knots.

  Contract time, including stops.

  Shortest voyage.

  Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company

  Brindisi to Bombay Bombay to Brindisi Brindisi to Hong Kong Hong Kong to Brindisi Brindisi to Shanghai Shanghai to Brindisi Brindisi to Adelaide Adelaide to Brindisi

  Days. Hours.

  Days. Hours

  Orient Steam Navigation Company

  Naples to Adelaide Adelaide to Naples

  Canadian Pacific Railway Company

  Vancouver to Hong Kong Hong Kong to Vancouver

  Royal Mail Steam Packet Company

  Southampton to Barbados Barbados to Plymouth Southampton to Jamaica Jamaica to Plymouth Southampton to Colon Colon to Plymouth

  Union-Castle Mail Steamship Company

  Southampton to Cape Town Cape Town to Southampton

  Cunard Steamship Company

  Queenstown to New York New York to Queenstown

  Oceanic Steam Navigation Company

  Queenstown to New York New York to Queenstown

  —(Sir John Colomb.)
  circumstances under which Superannuation Allowance has been granted in accordance with Section 2 of the Superannuation Act, 1887, to one of the Assistants of the Auditor of Indian Accounts [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 2811 and 2812 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  OCEAN MAIL CONTRACTS.
  Return ordered, showing certain particulars of services performed under contract with the Home and Colonial Governments between the 1st day of July and 31st day of December, 1901, in the following form—
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Musical Copyright.
  MAJOR EVANS-GORDON: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the constant losses which are being suffered by music sellers and composers owing to the sale of piratical editions of copyright songs, and whether he proposes to take any steps to facilitate the passage of the Bill already before Parliament to put an end to this sale.
  (Answer.) The Government are aware of the evils referred to, and are in sympathy with the provisions of Lord Monkswell's Bill, which has come down to the House of Commons after being amended by the House of Lords Standing Committee. It is impossible, as yet, to make any statement on the question of granting special facilities for the passage of this or any other measure promoted by private Members.—(Treasury.)

Naval Disasters—Provision for Sufferers apart from Greenwich Hospital Funds.
MR. REGINALD LUCAS: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the disasters connected with H.M.S. "Condor" and H.M.S. "Mars," following upon the loss of H.M.S. "Cobra," His Majesty's Government will consider the possibility of charging the pensions of widows of seamen so killed upon public funds instead of upon the funds of Greenwich Hospital, which are now inadequate to meet the existing claims of old seamen who are qualified to receive the Greenwich Old Age Pensions.
(Answer.) Without making any statement on the general policy which ought to be pursued in connection with the cases of widows and orphans of soldiers and sailors killed otherwise than on active service, the Government are now considering whether something cannot be done to alleviate the heavy pension charge which the loss of the ships mentioned will devolve on Greenwich Hospital funds.—(Treasury.)

Scottish Congested Districts Board.
MR. WEIR: To ask the Lord Advocate if he will state whether the roads in Ross-shire, for which the Congested Districts Board made a grant of £1,500 on the 20th June, 1898, are yet finished; and, if not, will he explain the cause of the delay.
(Answer.) I am informed that these roads, which are being constructed by the statutory road authority, are not yet completed. The Congested Districts Board are doing what they can to expedite the construction, and have in one case withdrawn their grant owing to unreasonable delay.—(Scottish Office.)
MR. WEIR: To ask the Lord Advocate if he will state the entire amount expended by the Congested Districts Board in the acquisition, adaptation, and disposal of land authorised under Section 5 of The Congested Districts (Scotland) Act, 1897.
(Answer.) To answer the hon. Member's Question precisely would necessitate a minute analysis of all the Board's accounts from its foundation until now; but approximately the amount expended on the purposes named may be taken as exceeding £30,000.—(Scottish Office.)

Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894—Allotments.
MR. EUGENE WASON: To ask the Lord Advocate whether he will be prepared to grant a Return showing the proceedings of Parish Councils in regard to allotments and common pasture, under Section 26 of the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894, and the proceedings of County Councils in regard to representation by Parish Councils for orders, under the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894, Section 26, authorising land to be taken on lease compulsorily for allotments, since the date of the last Return on the 4th July last.
(Answer.) If the hon. Member will move for a Return, it will be granted.—(Scottish Office.)

Cape Guardafui Lighthouse.
MR. WEIR: To ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any decision has yet been arrived at in regard to the proposed establishment of a lighthouse on Cape Guardafui.
(Answer.) No decision has yet been arrived at.—(Foreign Office.)

British Embassy Building at Madrid.
SIR HOWARD VINCENT: To ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he will state what was the purchase price of the Embassy House in Madrid, and what it has since cost in repairs; and if, having regard to its position in the centre of the city and its insanitary condition with stabling in the basement, he will confer with the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs as to its sale and replacement by a house in the diplomatic quarter of the Castellana.
(Answer.) The premises were bought for £12,000. Since the purchase the maintenance of the building and furniture, exclusive of expenditure for sanitary and other special works and the supply of new furniture, has been about £5,000. At this date it is impossible to give the exact amount for repairs to the building. I propose to take an opportunity of conferring shortly with His Majesty's ambassador on the question raised by my hon. and gallant friend.—(Office of Works.)

Customs Officials—Special Overtime Grant.
MR. MACVEAGH: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state the amount and explain the reason of the special grant from the Treasury recently placed at the disposal of the Board of Customs for distribution amongst the Customs officials; and whether the Board of Customs was given full discretion as to its apportionment.
(Answer.) The Treasury, in recognition of the extended hours attended and special services performed in connection with the coal and sugar duties of last year by certain of the Customs officers at headquarters not ordinarily entitled to overtime pay, sanctioned payment, out of savings on the Customs
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Vote, of specific gratuities amounting in all to £1,185 to the officers in question. The Board of Customs were given no discretion as regards the allotment of the money.—(Treasury.)

Civil Service—Abstractor Clerks.
MR. MACVEAGH: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether, in view of the satisfaction with which the boy copyists have received the recent concession of service marks in competing for subsequent examinations, he will consider the advisability of making a similar provision for assistant clerks of the abstractor class.
(Answer.) It is not intended to extend the system of service marks lately sanctioned for boy copyists to the assistant clerks of the abstractor class. The two cases are not similar and the reasons which justify the allowance in the case of boys do not apply in the case of abstractors.—(Treasury.)

Central Telegraph Office Staff.
MR. CLAUDE HAY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, with reference to the fact that the proportion of appointments above £160 per annum in the Central Telegraph Office now bear the same relation to the staff below that salary as during the period when the circular was issued promising a prospect of £190, whether he is aware that during the years 1882 to 1892 the proportion was one appointment above £160 to 5·5 below, and that the proportion at the present time is one appointment above £160 to 6·4 below; and, seeing that this difference of proportion represents nearly forty appointments above £160, whether he will take steps to readjust the proportion.
(Answer.) The Postmaster General is not able to accept the hon. Member's figures. Excluding learners, the proportion of appointments in the Central Telegraph Office above £160 per annum to those below £160 was in 1892 as 1 to 5·89, and is now as 1 to 566 The prospects of the general body have therefore been slightly improved during the last ten years.—(Post Office.)

India—Khairpur State Rupee Coinage.
MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the Vazir of the Native State of Khairpur recently issued an order to the effect that the State's own rupee coinage is no longer to be accepted by the State Treasury in payment of either land rent, fines, taxes, stamps, or otherwise, with the result that this repudiation on the part of the State has caused a depreciation of six annas per rupee, the native rupee, which was formerly worth fifteen annas being now worth only nine annas. And, seeing that the burden of this loss falls on the native population, will he state whether the Government of India have taken, or propose to take, any action with a view to relieve the people of Khairpur of this loss.
(Answer.) I understand that His Highness the Mir of Khairpur has issued an order to the effect stated in the Question. The Government of India are inquiring into the circumstances, but no official report upon the matter has yet reached me.—(India Office.)

Indian Customs Tariff.
SIR JOHN ROLLESTON: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether, as he has intimated that the possible requirements of India will not permit of the abolition of the import duties imposed by the Government in 1894, he will abolish or reduce those on imports from the United Kingdom, and increase those on imports from foreign countries to make up the deficiency.
(Answer.) The Indian Customs Tariff is based on the principle of uniform rates, without regard to the country of origin; and I am not prepared to order the Government of India to substitute for it a system of differential rates.—(India Office.)

Rupee Coinage Statistics.
SIR EDWARD SASSOON: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he would state the average amount of rupees coined annually during the ten years immediately preceding the closing of the mints, as well as the average amount coined annually during the same period subsequent to that event.
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(Answer.) The average amount of rupees coined annually during the ten years from 1883–4 to 1892–3 was 78,070,508, or, excluding the recoinage of old rupees of various kinds, 73,979,927. The average annual coinage in the nine years from 1893–4 to 1901–2 was about 31,495,610 rupees, or excluding re-coinage for Native States etc., 21,372,163.—(India Office.)

Braunton (Devonshire) Lighthouse—Telephonic Connection.
MR. SOARES: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he has yet received a reply from the Postmaster General, as to the advisability of connecting Braunton Lighthouse, in North Devon, with the telephone.
(Answer.) I have received a reply from the Postmaster General to the effect that the connection by telephone of Braunton Lighthouse with Braunton Post Office seems to him primâ facie desirable, and that the matter will be submitted to the Committee on Electrical Communications with Lighthouse Stations for their consideration. It appears, however, that the work cannot, in any case, be curried out immediately, as the whole of the funds provided by the Post Office for extensions of coast communication during the current financial year have already been allotted.—(Board of Trade.)

Cancer—Communication from Diseased Meat.
SIR JAMES JOICEY: To ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been called to a recent case at the Leicester County Court, before his Honour Judge Wightman, when a statement was made by one of the meat inspectors of the Leicester Corporation that in cases where cancer occurred in an animal (presumably local) he only condemned the part of the animal affected as being unfit for human food, but passed the remaining part of the carcass; if so, whether, considering the increase of cancer in the United Kingdom, he will make regulations, or ask the local authorities to do so, to ensure in such cases the condemnation of the whole carcasses of animals in any way affected by cancer.

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(Answer.) I have seen a short newspaper report of the case referred to. I am advised that the course adopted would appear to have been sufficient, and it does not seem to me that there is any need to ask local authorities to take action of the kind suggested. I have no power to make regulations on the subject.—(Local Government Board.)

Irish Boarded-out Children—Lady Inspector.
SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will consider the advisability of appointing some Roman Catholic ladies to the position of inspectors of boarded-out children in Ireland.
(Answer.) The present inspector has only very recently been appointed. Until the Government has had some practical experience (after a reasonable interval) of the working of the duties of the officer, the question of the appointment of a second inspector could not be entertained.—(Irish Office.)

Royal Irish Constabulary—Promotion.
MR. T. M. HEALY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether as the age limit was extended in July 1900 from forty-two to forty-five years for junior or P head constables, Royal Irish Constabulary, there is any reason why the limit for promotion of senior head constables to district inspectorships should not be extended from forty-eight to fifty years, especially having regard to the recent recommendation of the Departmental Committees that no future member of the force should be allowed to retire until at least fifty years of age, and that the minimum age of recruits should be raised to twenty-one.
(Answer.) The question of the age limit for promotion of head constables to the rank of district inspector has received careful consideration. The office of district inspector is essentially one to be filled by an active man; and since he is required to retire at the age of sixty, it has been held that the limit of forty-eight, fixed in the case of senior head constables, could not, in the best interests
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of the service, be exceeded. The recommendation of the Committee, referred to at the end of the Question, was made with the view of lessening the existing pension charge. Legislation would be necessary to fix the age for retirement at fifty for all members of the force below the rank of district inspector; but, even if such a limit were fixed, I do not think it would afford sufficient ground for increasing as suggested the present age limit of senior head constables who are eligible for promotion to the higher rank. Head constables eligible for promotion are divided into two classes: first, those on the "P" list, whose age must not exceed forty-five. They are required to undergo a competitive examination, by a Board of Officers, in police duties, etc., and also a literary examination which is conducted by the Civil Service Commissioners. The second class consists of head constables under forty-eight years of age. They merely undergo a test examination, and are selected for the purpose. One-fourth of the vacancies in the rank of district inspector goes to each class, i.e., head constables receive half the number of vacancies.—(Irish Office.)

Soldiers and Sailors—Non-alcoholic Refreshment Tickets at Railway Stations.
MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for War if he will state what Railway Companies have now arranged to supply soldiers, reservists, and sailors in uniform with non-alcoholic refreshments at railway bars at a reduced price.
(Answer). The following is the list of railway companies which have agreed to issue non-alcoholic refreshments to soldiers and sailors in uniform on presentation of refreshment tickets: Barry; Cambrian; Cheshire Lines Committee; Furness; Great Central; Great Eastern; Great Northern; Great Western; Highland; Hull and Barnsley; Isle of Wight; Irish Railways; Lancashire and Yorkshire; London and North Western; London and South Western;. London, Brighton, and South Coast; London, Tilbury, and Southend; Metropolitan; Metropolitan District; Midland; North Eastern; North London; North Staffordshire; Rhondda and Swansea Bay. In view of the special circumstances of soldiers returning from South Africa, the

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companies concerned have undertaken to deal liberally with those who present these tickets in regard to the amount of refreshments provided.—(War Office.)

Army Officers' Education and Training Committee.
CAPTAIN NORTON: To ask the Secretary of State for War, if he can state when the Report of the Committee on the Education and Training of Officers of the Army, appointed as far back as 29th April, 1901, will be presented and circulated.
(Answer.) I hope to circulate the Report this week.—(War Office.)

Coronation Processions—Provincial Volunteers.
MR. LOWE: To ask the Secretary of State for War, whether, in view of the fact that the presence of Volunteers whose head quarters are outside London is desired in London to assist in maintaining order at the Coronation ceremonies, he will explain why they are expected on that occasion to pay their travelling expenses to and from London, and are only allowed a small amount to cover the cost of one meal.
(Answer.) The attendance of these Volunteers is purely voluntary, and they attend simply as spectators, and the rules for allowances are those adopted on previous similar occasions.—(War Office.)

Army Bread Contracts—Dundalk Contractors.
MR. T. M. HEALY: To ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he will state the name of the contractor for the supply of bread to the garrison, Dundalk.
(Answer.) The present contractors are Messrs. Inglis and Company of Belfast.—(War Office.)

Coronation Processions—Accommodation for Members—Traffic Arrangements.
COLONEL LONG: To ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he can now inform the House what arrangements he has been able to make with regard to Members being allowed on the 26th and 27th June to drive to the public entrance of the House of Commons by Grosvenor
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Road and Abingdon Street, those going to House of Commons stand to pass through New Palace Yard, and those going to Abbey by path between Abbey and St. Margaret's; also as to parking Members' carriages in New Palace Yard, and as to whether Members could be allowed to go to the Abbey from the House of Commons up to, say, 10 o'clock.
(Answer.) The regulations made for the access of carriages to Westminster Abbey on the 26th June have now been published in the London Gazette, and the Commissioner of Police regrets that it is not in his power to arrange for any modification of the Privy Council Order, which directs that the doors of the Abbey shall be closed at 9 a.m. It would greatly complicate the traffic arrangements if Members were to be set down at the St. Stephen's Porch instead of at Poets' Corner; but there is no reason why, after setting down at Poets' Corner, Members should not cross the road on foot to the entrance of the House of Commons if they wish to do so. The possibility of parking the carriages of Members of Parliament in New Palace Yard was considered, and the proposal was abandoned as impracticable. A covered way will be constructed between St. Stephen's Porch and Poets' Corner. My hon. and gallant friend will thus perceive that, while the Commissioner of Police does not sec his way to adopt the proposals in the Question, he practically meets all his requirements. The arrangements for persons going to places on the line of route on the 26th and 27th are not yet completed, but every possible arrangement will be made to suit the convenience of Members on both days.—(Office of Works.)

New Guinea Land Concession.
Mr. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will state what has become of the application of Sir Somers Vine to the Colonial Office for a refund of the expenses incurred with reference to his New Guinea land claim to which Australasia objected; and what reply, if any, did the Colonial Secretary obtain in reply to his cablegram to the Colonies respecting the payment to Sir Somers Vine of the sum of £13,000 he demanded.

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(Answer.) The Government of Queensland informed me last year that they and the Government of Victoria were prepared to sanction payment to the British New Guinea Syndicate from the funds of the possession of a sum of £4,000 to cover the expenses incurred by them in connection with the land concession granted by the Government of British New Guinea, but objected to by the contributory colonies. The Government of New South Wales, however, opposed any such payment, and as the consent of that Government was necessary, the payment fell through, and so far as I am aware, nothing further has been done in the matter. I may add that the claim is not against my Department but against the Government of New Guinea and the Australian States which were responsible for the finances of the territory.—(Colonial Office.)

(2.15.) QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  South African War—Terms of Peace.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): Mr Speaker, Papers have already been laid upon the Table, and will be in the hands of Members in two or three hours, I hope, at the latest, which will give not only the terms of surrender happily agreed upon last Saturday, but also the correspondence leading up to that auspicious event. But I think that the House will perhaps be anxious to hear the actual outcome of the negotiations, even before hon. Members have an opportunity of reading the Papers and the correspondence which have led up to that consummation. Though the documents are rather long, perhaps I may be allowed to read in the first place the agreement as to the terms; of surrender of the Boer forces in the field approved by His Majesty's Government; and in the second place, a document supplementary to the first, the character of which will be understood directly I have read it. The following are the terms of agreement, signed on Saturday night.
  His Excellency General Lord Kitchener and his Excellency Lord Milner, on behalf of the British Government, and Messrs M. T. Steyn, J. Brebner, General
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  C. R. De Wet, General C. Olivier, and Judge J. B. M. Hertzog, acting as the Government of the Orange Free State, and Messrs. S. W. Burger, F. W. Reitz, Generals Lewis Botha, J. H. Delary, Lucas Meyer, Krogh, acting as the Government of the South African Republic, on behalf of their respective burghers desirous to terminate the present hostilities, agree on the following Articles:—

  1. The burgher forces in the field will forthwith lay down their arms, handing over all guns, rifles, and munitions of war in their possession or under their control, and desist from any further resistance to the authority of His Majesty King Edward VII., whom they recognise as their lawful Sovereign. The manner and details of this surrender will he arranged between Lord Kitchener and Commandant-General Botha, Assistant Commandant-General Delarey, and Chief Commandant De Wet.

  2. All burghers in the held outside the limits of the Transvaal or Orange River Colony and all prisoners of war at present outside South Africa who are laughers will, on duly declaring their acceptance of the position of subjects of his Majesty King Edward VII., be gradually brought pack to their homes as soon as transport can be provided and their means of subsistence ensured.

  3. The burghers so surrendering or so returning will not be deprived of their personal liberty or their property.

  4. No proceedings, civil or criminal, will be taken against any of the burghers surrendering or so returning for any acts in connection with the prosecution of the war. The benefit of this clause will not extend to certain acts, contrary to usages of war, which have been notified by Commander in-Chief to the Boer Generals, and which shall be tried by Court martial immediately after the close of hostilities.

  5. The Dutch language will be taught in public schools in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony where the parents of the children desire it, and will be allowed in Courts of law when necessary for the better and more effectual administration of justice.

  6. The possession of rifles will be allowed in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony to persons requiring them for their protection on taking out a licence according to law.

  7. Military administration in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony will, at the earliest possible date, be succeeded by Civil Government, and, as soon as circumstances permit representative institutions, leading up to self-government, will be introduced.

  8. The question of granting franchise to the natives will not be decided until after the introduction of self-government.

  9. No special tax will be imposed on Landed property in the Transvaal and Grange River Colony to defray the expenses of the war.

  10. As soon as conditions permit, a Commission, on which the local inhabitants will be represented, will be appointed in each district

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  of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, under the presidency of a magistrate or other official, for the purpose of assisting the restoration of the people to their homes, and supplying those who, owing to war losses, are unable to provide themselves with food, shelter, and the necessary amount of seed, stock, implements, etc., indispensable to the resumption of their normal occupations.

  His Majesty's Government will place at the disposal of these Commissions a sum of £3,000,000 for the above purposes, and will allow all notes issued under Law 1 of 1900 of the South African Republic, and all receipts given by officers in the field of the late Republics, or under their orders, to be presented to a Judicial Commission, which will be appointed by the Government, and if such notes and receipts are found by tins Commission to have been duly issued in return for valuable considerations, they will be received by the first-named commissions as evidence of war losses suffered by the persons to whom they were originally given.
  In addition to the above-named free grant of £3,000,000, His Majesty's Government will be prepared to make advances on loan for the same purposes free of interest for two years, and afterwards repayable over a period of years with 3 per cent. interest. No foreigner or rebel will be entitled to the benefit of this clause.
  There are certain important points which the House will see are not dealt with in the document which I have read, which was the document signed on Saturday night, and on that ground and as supplementary to that it may be convenient that I should proceed to read from a despatch from Lord Milner to my right hon. friend the Colonial Secretary dated May 30th. The despatch reads as follows:—
  "After handing to Boer delegates a copy of draft agreement "—
  that is exactly the document which I have just read—
  "which his Majesty's Government are prepared to approve, with a view of terminating the present hostilities, I read to them the following statement and gave them a copy.
  "His Majesty's Government must place it on record that the treatment of Cape and Natal Colonists who have been in rebellion, and who now surrender, will if they return to their Colonies, be determined by the Colonial Governments and in accordance with the laws of the Colonies, and any British subjects who have joined the enemy will be liable to trial under the law of that part of the British Empire to which they belong.
  "His Majestys Government are informed by the Cape Government that the following are their views as to the terms which should be granted to British subjects of Cape Colony who are now in the field, or who have surrendered, or have been captured since April 12th, 1901. 'With regard to rank and file, they should all, upon surrender, after giving
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  up their arms, sign a document before the resident magistrate of the district in which the surrender takes place acknowledging themselves guilty of high treason, and the punishment to be awarded to them, providing that they shall not have been guilty of murder or other acts contrary to the usages of civilised warfare, should be that they shall not be entitled for life to be registered as voters or to vote at any Parliament—(cheers)—divisional council, or municipal election. With reference to justices of the peace and field-cornets of Cape Colony, and all other persons holding official positions under the Government of Cape Colony, or who may occupy the position of commandant of the rebel or burgher forces, they shall be tried for high treason before the ordinary court of the country, or such special court as may be hereafter constituted by law, the punishment for their offences to be left to the discretion of the Court, with this proviso, that in no case shall penalty of death be indicted.'
  "The Natal Government are of opinion that rebels should be dealt with according to the law of the Colony."
  That, Sir, is the whole of the two documents, which, I think, state the arrangements which have been made.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The right bon. Gentleman has given the House a plain and businesslike narrative of the most recent of these all-important events. He has refrained from making any comment, or expressing any feeling on the subject, but I cannot but think that the House will allow a certain expression, at all events, to be given to what I believe to be the universal feeling of the country. Sir, this intelligence which the right hon. Gentleman has, happily, been able to give us—intelligence long looked for and long hoped for—will, I feel certain, cause the most profound and universal satisfaction, not only at home, but within the whole wide bounds of the Empire. It will bring ease and comfort to many an anxious, aching heart; it will give rest to many who have served the King in all ranks, and whose energies have been through long months overwrought. It will relieve the power and the resources of this country of a strain which they have been proved to be well able to bear, but a strain great beyond any previous example. It will put an end, let us hope, to suffering and disastrous losses and confusion, which during the continuance of the war necessarily blighted the fair South

  1107
  African dominions of the Crown. I believe that the harmony of feeling on this subject with which we greet this announcement is complete. We are all at one in our recognition of those who have fought for us, of the courage and endurance, the patience and discipline, which they have displayed, and by which they have maintained the traditions of the British Army. I am sure that I can go further, and say that we are unanimous in our admiration of those who up to now have been our enemies, and who now are our friends and fellow-citizens, whose military qualities, whose tenacity of purpose and self-sacrificing devotion to liberty and country, have won for them the respect of the whole world, and foremost of all the respect of us who have been their opponents. We shall also be alike in our hope and expectation that from the date of this peace there shall dawn a happier era, an era of concord and prosperity upon South Africa. As to the terms of settlement, we must await the perusal of the Papers before saying anything, and this would not be a fitting occasion in any case. All that we can do, I think, as Members of this House, is to offer our humble congratulations to the King and to the country on the thrice-blessed establishment of peace.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: May I ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he would consent to the adjournment of the House until the morning sitting to-morrow, if it will not dislocate business too much.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: As my hon. friend will probably have anticipated, it is quite impossible to entertain the proposal, which I am sure in a most excellent spirit he has set before us. I do not think it would be a very judicious way of celebrating the happy event which I have announced to the House that we should suspend the carrying on during the whole of the present sitting the business of the country. I may, perhaps, be allowed to say, as I know there must be a good deal of natural and strong feeling upon the subject, of which I have given but a bald outline,
  1108
  that there will be a legitimate opportunity for explaining all that we think about the services to the country which have been performed by our forces in South Africa, and their distinguished general, because I shall at an early date move that a vote of thanks be presented to them by this House.
  SIR MARK STEWART (Kircudbrightshire): Is there any intention on the part of the Government to have a Thanksgiving Day for the termination of the war?
  MR. SPEAKER: The time for questions has expired. Notice should be given.

  Postal Telegraphists at the Front.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENThad on the Paper the following questions: To ask the Secretary of State for War if the telegraphists of the Post Office, who were called for in the spring of 1900 to volunteer for South Africa, were enlisted into the Army in precisely the same way as the City Imperial Volunteers, the Service Companies of Volunteers, the Imperial Yeomanry, and the Volunteers of the St. John's Ambulance Association; and, if so, will he explain why no effort has been or is being made to relieve them in the same way as the Members of those emergency corps, namely, after good service, instead of retaining them indefinitely until the close of the war under the strict letter of the engagement they entered into. The hon. and gallant Member said it would be sufficient if he asked if when these men returned their claims would be duly considered.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): Yes, Sir, certainly.

  Wiltshire Regiment—Deaths from Enteric Fever.
  MR. FULLER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state the total number of deaths from enteric fever amongst the men of the Wiltshire Regiment at St. Helena; what hospital and medical staff there is available on the spot to deal with the disease; and

  1109
  what steps are being taken to prevent any further spread of the epidemic.
  MR. BRODRICK: The total number of deaths from enteric fever among the men of the Wiltshire Regiment is nine. The Royal Army Medical corps staff now in St. Helena consists of—1 lieutenant-colonel, 1 major, 1 quartermaster, 7 civil surgeons, 5 nursing sisters, 1 sergeant, 4 corporals, 3 lance-corporals, 22 privates, 27 regimental orderlies attached, 21 prisoners of war orderlies. There are 427 beds available. This staff will be augmented from Capetown today. The epidemic is steadily subsiding, and the health of the troops is
  greatly improved.

  Army Remounts.
  MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can say what quantity of horses were purchased for Army purposes during April, and state the countries from which they were obtained.
  MR. BRODRICK: 13,557 horses were purchased during April. They were obtained as follows:

  United Kingdom

  2,038.

  Canada

  763.

  United States of America

  4,365.

  Austro-Hungary

  6,391.

  Gratuities to Reserve Officers serving in the War.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether Reserve Officers who have retired from the services on receiving a lump sum down by way of gratuity, and who have served during the South African war, are allowed the full pay of their rank, whereas those Reserve Officers who have retired on receiving a pension instead of a lump sum, and who have similarly served, are not allowed the full pay of their rank. Can he state how many military and how many naval officers, respectively, have either been deprived of pay altogether for their services in South Africa, or have received diminished pay on the ground that they are in receipt of retired pay or pensions. I beg also to ask the Secretary of State for War, is he aware that a Commander
  1110
  in the Royal Navy, compulsorily retired at the age of forty-five in 1900 with a pension of £300, reduced subsequently by commutation to £228, volunteered for service in South Africa in January 1901, joined as a trooper, was advanced through successive ranks to captain in the Imperial Yeomanry, and would be entitled, as such, to pay of £237, 5s. per annum, but that he has nevertheless been refused any pay whatever from Army funds, on the ground of his enjoyment of a naval pension; and, is it proposed to adhere in all cases to a rule which enables the War Office to accept the services of experienced officers, and at the end of their services to refuse to them any pay for those services.
  MR. BRODRICK: It has been repeatedly explained to the House that retired officers re-employed cannot, under the Regulations, claim both effective and non-effective pay, but are permitted to choose whichever is most advantageous to them. I am aware of the case referred to in the second Question. If this officer elected to draw his effective pay, it would be necessary to deduct the value of the commuted pension which would reduce his salary below the rate of his present pension. An exception in a particular case would necessitate a general change in the rules laid down by the Treasury.
  Two supplementary questions were asked by Mr. GIBSON BOWLES, but neither the questions nor the answers were audible.

  Naval Ordnance Department—Vancanies.
  LORD CHARLES BERESFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether any vacancies have occurred in the Naval Ordnance Department since the, Secretary to the Admiralty stated that Naval Warrant Officers were to fill such appointments; and whether he can state the nature of the appointments he proposes to offer to Naval Warrant Officers.
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN,): The two vacancies which now exist and which are for Assistant Naval Store Officers are not of such a nature as to

  1111
  render it possible with advantage to the service to fill them from the Warrant Officer's List, nor do these posts come within the scope of the Committee's recommendation referred to in the answer given by the Secretary of the Admiralty to a previous question. This recommendation was in reference to storeholders only. The whole question of the staff at the outports is now referred to a sub-committee who are visiting the ports and no fresh appointments will be made until their report has been received.

  Coronation Naval Review—Accommodation for Members of Parliament.
  COLONEL LONG: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will take steps to ensure that the ship allotted to the Members of the House of Commons at the Coronation Naval Review is not too crowded with guests having no connection with the House, and that there shall be an adequate supply of provisions, so preventing the inconvenience to Members which occurred at the last Jubilee Review.
  MR. PRETYMAN: I am aware that in the case of the Jubilee Naval Review considerable inconvenience was experienced by hon. Members owing to the large number of passengers on the ship appropriated to the House of Commons and to the inadequacy of the refreshment accommodation. Every effort is being made to avoid the recurrence of any inconvenience of the kind, and to make adequate provision for all Members of the House of Commons attending the Review.
  MR. COHEN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that ninety-six Members have been unsuccessful in the ballot for sleeping accommodation on board the vessel to witness the Coronation Naval Review; and, whether, seeing that this number exceeds the number for whom provision is afforded, a second vessel can be provided for the accommodation of this number.
  MR. PRETYMAN: Two vessels have been provided for the accommodation of hon. Members who desire to witness the
  1112
  Coronation Review. The arrangements made by the Admiralty include the conveyance of Members to and from London, and their entertainment on board ship during the day. The Admiralty is not responsible for either ship after she has disembarked passengers at Southampton in the evening. It has, however, been found possible to retain one of the ships for the night. The company to which the vessel belongs has agreed to make a private arrangement by which the sleeping accommodation of the ship will be made available to hon. Members on payment. I am aware that the number of hon. Members desiring to sleep on board is larger than this ship can accommodate, but I am considering whether, and in what way the available space can be supplemented. If I find that more berths can be obtained I will immediately communicate with hon. Members, but I should like to make it quite clear that the provision of sleeping accommodation is outside the responsibility of the Admiralty, and also that the two ships which have been retained are amply sufficient for the accommodation during the day.

  Sara Ghat Ferry.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state to what local authority an application should be addressed in regard to the need of superseding by steamers of modern type the present fifty year old steamers in use at Sara Ghat Ferry.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord G. HAMILTON,): The Ferry in question is worked in connection with the Eastern Bengal Railway, and complaints should be addressed to the administration of that railway.
  MR. WEIR: Are these steamers leased by the Eastern Bengal Railway?
  LORD G. HAMILTON: They are worked in connection with the railway.

  British Trade with the Colonies—Conference with Colonial Premiers.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State

  1113
  for the Colonics whether, before discussing the commercial relations of the Empire with the representatives of the self-governing Colonies when they are here for the Coronation, he will afford the House an opportunity of considering the attitude that should be adopted by the mother country in respect to any proposals that may be made for establishing a system of mutual trade preference within the Empire.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): I do not think that there would be any advantage in such a preliminary discussion until definite proposals upon which the Colonies are generally agreed are before His Majesty's Government.

  Lake Chad Expedition.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will state what information he has about the expedition to Lake Chad under Colonel Morland, and whether it is intended to establish a residency in Bornu.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Colonel Morland reached Gujba, in Bornu, on the 11th of March, and I have learnt by telegraph that he has now returned to Jobba. He was instructed to leave a resident in Bornu, and has no doubt done so, but the full report of the proceedings has not yet been received.

  British Columbia and Asiatic Immigration.
  MR. JAMES O'KELLY: I beg to ask the Secretary for the Colonies whether the Government of the Dominion of Canada has disallowed certain Acts of the Legislature of British Columbia restricting the immigration and employment of Asiatics; and, if so, whether this action is sanctioned by the Imperial Government.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The Governor General of Canada has, on the advice of his Ministers, disallowed certain Acts of the Legislature of British Columbia which imposed serious disabilities on Japanese and other friendly powers. His Majesty's Government have seen the decision of the Dominion Government with great satisfaction.

  Egypt's International Status.
  MR. JAMES O'KELLY: I bog to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will state what is the present international status of Egypt, whether it is a protected State in the British Empire or a province of the Turkish Empire; and whether His Majesty's Government intend to carry out the promise given to evacuate the country.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,): Egypt is a tributary State of the Turkish Empire, in British military occupation.

  German Action in the Congo Free State.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, having regard to the promise of inquiry made on 15th February, 1901, His Majesty's Government are now aware that in September, 1900, a German force forcibly seized a portion of the Congo Free State, and turned the Belgian forces out of their stations there under a threat of war; and that the Germans thus took possession of the strip of territory leased to Great Britain by King Leopold of Belgium in 1894, which territory was abandoned by Great Britain, owing to the objections of the German and French Governments; what grounds were or are alleged by the German Government for seizing territory which they objected to being occupied by Great Britain, and the lease of which Great Britain abandoned on German representations; has His Majesty's Government made any representations on the subject to the German Government, or does it propose to make any; and if any such representations have been made, will the correspondence be laid upon the Table of this House.
  LORD CRANBORNE: The information we have received from the German Government does not include any mention of occurrences of the kind described in my hon. friend's Question, but is to the effect that a mixed German Congolese Commission has for some time past been engaged in the preliminaries

  1115
  necessary for delimiting the boundaries of the respective German and Congolese territories in the neighbourhood of Lake Kivu. There are no Papers which could conveniently be laid.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: The noble Lord says the information received does not include that I ask for. Is he aware that in February, 1901, he promised to make inquiry, and has he done so?
  LORD CRANBORNE: Oh, yes, communications have passed.

  Peking-Shan-hai-Kwang Railway.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, under the terms of the Agreement of 29th April, the Peking-Shan-hai-Kwang Railway has been handed over to China on 1st June; and, if it has not been so handed over, whether its retention is due to disagreement among or refusal by the Allied Powers.
  LORD CRAN BORNE: We learn from His Majesty's Minister at Peking that there has been some difference of opinion between his colleagues as to the date at which the railway might be handed over to China, and he is not yet able to give us definite information upon this point.

  Navigation of the Whang Poo.
  MR. CHARLES HOBHOUSE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will state what arrangement has been come to with regard to the navigation of the Whang Poo river between Shanghai and the sea; whether the channel has been deepened; and what is the composition of the controlling authority of the navigation.
  LORD CRANBORNE: The arrangements concluded between the Powers and China with regard to the Whang Poo navigation are contained in Annex 17 to the Final Protocol of September 7th, 1901, and will be found at pp. 270–72 of the Parliamentary Paper China No. 1, 1902. His Majesty's Minister at Peking reported on March 27th that the
  1116
  Conservancy Board had been constituted in accordance with Article 3 of Annex 17, with the exception of the Chinese representative, who had not yet been appointed, and that work had therefore not yet commenced.

  British Art Students in Italy.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under Secretary, of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Italian Government have recently issued a regulation to the effect that all foreign artists who wish to study in the Italian galleries or museums must produce an academic diploma and a certificate from the Italian Consul in their native city or town that they are capable and respectable; and whether, in order to prevent inconvenience to British art students at present studying in Italy, he will consider the expediency of making representations to the Italian Government on the subject, with a view to the withdrawal of the order.
  LORD CRANBORNE: We have received no information on the subject, but inquiry will be made.

  Fatal Accidents to Parachutists.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can state the number of fatal accidents resulting from parachute performances in Great Britain since 1890, and how many of the persons killed were males and how many were females.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. RITCHIE,): No, Sir. Fatal accidents resulting from parachute performances, being of rare occurrence, are not classified separately in the Registrar General's returns. But I may say that during the period 1890 to 1900 the wider heading "Falls from Balloons" shows the deaths of two males and one female.

  Vivisection Statistics.
  MR. BANBURY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will state how many of the 9,596 animals experimented upon under certificates A and A + E and

  1117
  A + F have been under the personal observation of the inspectors; and in the case of animals experimented upon under these certificates, which have not been under the personal observation of the inspectors, what is the guarantee, besides the word of the operator himself, that the provisions of the certificates have been obeyed.
  The following Questions also appeared on the Paper in the name of the same hon. Member—
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will state at how many of the 1,176 experiments on living animals in 1901 done under licence alone an inspector was present, and what is the guarantee, other than the word of the operator himself, that the provisions of the licence as to anæsthesia were obeyed in the cases where an inspector was not present; also at how many of the experiments done under certificate B and B + EE, numbering together 699, was an inspector present; and, when experiments were performed under these certificates without the presence of an inspector, what is the guarantee, besides the word of the operator himself, that the provisions of the certificates and licences as to anæsthesia were obeyed.
  To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he will state in how many experiments done under Certificates A, A + E, and A + F pain ensued before the main result of the experiment had been attained, and who is the authority that decides whether or not pain does ensue.
  MR. RITCHIE: Perhaps my hon. friend will allow me to give one answer to his three Questions, as very similar considerations apply to all the points raised. Very few of the experiments under the certificates indicated or under the licences alone have been witnessed by an inspector. But a very large proportion of the animals experimented upon have been seen and carefully examined by the inspectors, and in no case have they found that an animal has been unnecessarily kept alive in pain. The licensee is, of course, responsible for carrying out the
  1118
  conditions of his licence and certificates, and the additional "guarantees"—if I accept that word—are that the inspectors can judge whether the licensee is in the habit of obeying the conditions by the number of cases which they see and in which they find the animals in a proper state and by the fact that whenever they find an experiment going on the provisions of the law with regard to anæsthesia are obeyed. Further "guarantees" lie in (1) the character of the persons to whom licences are granted and the eminent persons who recommend them, and (2) the fact that such experiments must be performed in registered places, which are under the control of responsible authorities, and that all applications are carefully scrutinised before registration is granted.

  Investment of Charity Funds.
  MR. RICHARDS (Finsbury, E.): I beg to ask the Member for the Tunbridge Division of Kent if the Charity Commissioners intend to adhere to their rule of compelling trustees (for the purpose of temporary investment) to purchase consols; and whether the Commissioners will consider the advisability of permitting such moneys to stand on deposit in the Bank of England or approved Joint Stock banks.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY CHARITY COMMISSIONER (Mr. GRIFFITH BOSCAWEN,): The Charity Commissioners have no rule of compelling trustees in the case of interim investments to purchase consols. In authorising such investments they are guided by the circumstances and requirements of each case. The objections to the course suggested by the hon. Member are that the Bank of England do not allow interest on money deposited with them, and that a deposit of money with a Joint Stock bank might involve the trustees of a charity in personal liability for the loss of the sum deposited.

  Cornwallis's Charity, Llansadwrn, Carmarthenshire.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: I beg to ask the hon. Member for the Tunbridge Division of Kent, as a Charity Commissioner, if his attention has been called to the Report of the Assistant Charity Commissioner, Mr. Marchant Williams, for the

  1119
  parish of Llansadwrn, Carmarthenshire, dated 8th August, 1900, which, on page 290, states that the trustees of Cornwallis's Charity, with the sanction of the Charity Commissioners, invested in 1877 £200 on a deposit account of the Carmarthen Branch of the National Provincial Bank of England at 3 per cent. per annum, which interest was invested for prizes to the children; and, seeing that, as stated in the Report, after a few years the distribution of prizes ceased and the capital sum disappeared, what steps have been taken against those responsible for the trust.
  MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWEN: (1) The Charity Commissioners did not sanction the deposit of the £200 to which the Question refers. On the contrary, they pressed the trustees to invest it in Government securities, and, for that purpose, to transfer it to the account of the Official Trustees of Charitable Funds. (2) The sum in question was not capital, but was accumulated income, which it was within the competence of the trustees to expend on the objects of the Charity. (3) As the sum was income, and not capital, and was not great in amount, the Commissioners did not think it desirable to take any steps for enforcing their recommendation that it should be invested. (4) The present trustees of the Charity deny the statement that the sum in question has disappeared; and a close examination of the records in the office of the Commissioners indicates that it formed part of a sum of £400 which was, under an order of the Board of 27th January, 1888, transferred from the deposit account of the trustees to the Official Trustees of Charitable Funds, was invested by them in consols, and still remains so invested.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: Will the old trustees be re-appointed?
  MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWEN: I must ask for notice of that Question.

  St. Mary Woolnoth and the Central London Railway Company.
  MR. RICHARDS: I beg to ask the Member for Salford, as representing the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, if attention has been called to the conduct of
  1120
  the Central London Railway Company, who have blocked the main entrance of the parish church of St. Mary Woolnoth, in the City of London, and are selling seats at their station booking office for scats built upon the churchyard, and in front of the main entrance of the parish church; and, seeing that the Central London Railway Company are not the owners or part owners of such fabric or churchyard, if they have paid or deposited any, and, if so, what portion of the award against them for injuriously affecting the said church; and if such erection has been made with the knowledge and assent of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners.
  THE PARLIAMENTARY ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONER (Mr. LEES KNOWLES,): The Ecclesiastical Commissioners have not been consulted as to the erection by the Central London Railway Company of a stand upon the churchyard of St. Man Woolnoth, nor do the Commissioners claim any authority in the matter. I understand that a faculty for the erection of a stand has been decreed by the Consistory Court of the Bishop of London, to be granted to the rector and churchwardens and the railway company jointly. The Commissioners have been informed that a sum of £80,000 has been paid into court by the railway company in respect of the arbitrator's award upon the claim made by the rector and churchwardens for interference with the church and churchyard, and so forth. The award, however, was provisional upon the decision of the High Court upon certain legal questions involved, and the time for appeal against the judgment of the High Court which has been obtained has, I understand, not yet expired.

  Speed of Mail Steamers to the East.
  SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether it has come to his knowledge that the mail steamers of the Orient Pacific and Peninsular and Oriental Shipping Companies only average about 340 miles daily, while they have power; to run 400 miles, which is the average speed of the American steamers on the Pacific; and, seeing that the time can

  1121
  be shortened by several days between England and Australia, and in view of the competition with German and other lines, will arrangements be made by the Post Office department to avail itself of the full speed of English mail steamers.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): No, Sir; it is calculated that, in order to perform their voyages between Brindisi or Naples and Adelaide within the contract time; the packets of the Orient Pacific Line and the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company would have to maintain an average speed of about 340 miles a day, whereas, in practice, most of them exceed that rate and reach the terminal port considerably before contract time, the Post Office gaining the advantage of such earlier arrival. The average speed is certainly considerably above 340 miles per day. Even if some of the ships could be driven faster still, the contracts give the Postmaster General no power to require additional speed.

  Army Recruiting from the Criminal Classes.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether his attention has been drawn to certain remarks made by Sheriff Guthrie, of Glasgow, in sentencing to nine months imprisonment for housebreaking a prisoner of nineteen years of age with three previous convictions, the sheriff suggesting that the prisoner should go into the Army to retrieve his character; whether, with the view of encouraging recruiting, he will point out to the sheriff the inadvisability of making such a suggestion again, more especially in a recruiting centre like Glasgow, where young men of good character join the colours.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): I am confident the sheriff mentioned meant no disrespect to the Army; and if the Army offers to young men who have gone astray a chance of retrieving their lives, that does not seem matter for regret. In any case it does not fall within my duty or powers to interfere with a sheriff's discretion in the method of passing sentence.

  Secondary Schools and the Education Grant.
  MR. BARTLEY: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether secondary schools carried on for private profit are now eligible for public grants out of taxation as well as those secondary schools which are conducted so as to pay a substantial dividend on the capital employed.
  THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION (Sir JOHN GORST,): They are not eligible for public grants.
  MR. BARTLEY: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education on what authority financial grants are made by the Board of Education towards the education of pupils in secondary schools whose pupils are financially able to pay, and do pay, substantial fees for their education.
  SIR JOHN GORST: The sums granted by Parliament are administered by the Board of Education in accordance with regulations annually laid before Parliament. Such grants are made to schools which, from their character and financial position, are eligible to receive aid from public funds, and not to individual scholars.

  Machinery for Transfer of Board Schools to the County Education Authority.
  MR. HERBERT LEWIS: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether any, and if so, what, machinery is provided for administering the schools taken over by the County Education Authority from the School Boards between the date of the adoption of the Education Act by the County Council and the enactment of the Scheme which is to provide for the future administration of such schools.
  SIR JOHN GORST: The machinery is to be found in Clause 20, sub-Section 2, of the Bill.

  Irish Labourers' Acts—Granard Cottages.
  MR. WILLIAM JOHNSTON: On behalf of the Right hon. Member for South Antrim, I beg

  1123
  to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the fact that a member of the Granard Rural District Council has taken possession of a cottage erected under the Labourers (Ireland) Acts; whether this person is entitled to such occupation; and, if not, whether the attention of the Local Government Board will be drawn to the matter.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): My right hon. friend has sent me a newspaper report, from which it appears that the fact is as stated. A district councillor may be a tenant of a cottage if he is an agricultural labourer. Whether the councillor in the present case is eligible from this point of view, I cannot say. The matter is one which concerns the Council, and the Local Government Board has no power to intervene. No legal disqualification for the office of councillor attaches to a person by reason of his being the tenant of a labourer's cottage.

  Greencastle (Antrim) Drainage.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the attention of the Local Government Board in Ireland has been called to the drainage of Greencastle, County Antrim; whether the joint scheme of the Belfast Corporation and the Local Urban Council has been sanctioned; and, if so, what is the reason for the delay in putting the scheme in force.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Local Government Board has not sanctioned any such joint scheme of drainage. The Corporation and the Rural District Council entered into negotiations on the subject. These, however, have been suspended, as the Council considers that the area proposed to be drained by the Corporation is not sufficiently large.

  Tenement Rents in Dublin.
  MR. NANNETTI: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the practice carried on in Dublin of tenement holders of houses systematically
  1124
  increasing the rents on their tenants; whether he has read the observations of the Recorder of that city in deciding cases recently brought before him for ejectments; and whether, in view of the hardship inflicted on poor tenants, he will consider the advisability of introducing legislation to deal with this matter.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The hon. Member has sent me a newspaper report of the Recorder's observations in the cases referred to. I cannot hold out any hope of being able to introduce legislation in the matter.

  United Irish League—Police and the Shandrum Branch.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the constabulary authorities are aware of the action of constables from Milford, County Cork, in placing a watch upon the meetings of the Shandrum branch of the United Irish League; is he aware that at the last monthly meeting of the branch on 25th May two policemen were stationed in the front of the league-room, although they had not visited the village on Sunday during the past month; and, if so, can he explain what is the reason for his watching of the meetings of this association.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The police do not watch the proceedings of this branch. They visited the village on Sunday the 25th May, and on all previous Sundays for some months past when the branch did not meet, for the purpose of supervising the public houses in the village and preventing a breach of the licensing Acts.

  Sligo Crown Solicitor.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the fact that Mr. Fenton, Crown Solicitor for Sligo, who has caused a summons to be issued for conspiracy under the Criminal Law and Procedure Act, 1887, against the hon. Member for North Leitrim, to be tried before two resident magistrates on 6th June, is the same Mr. Fenton who

  1125
  issued a writ against this hon. Member for an alleged conspiracy to injure him, in which the venue is laid in Belfast for the July Assizes; whether the Government will call on Mr. Fenton to explain why, instead of bringing a civil action for conspiracy against the hon. Member, he has failed to take penal proceedings against him before the local resident magistrates; whether he is aware that Mr. Fenton procured a writ of attachment to be issued against the hon. Member last year in a civil proceeding; that Mr. Fenton was also employed by the Crown to collect evidence and otherwise on the occasion of the recent prosecution of the hon. Gentleman in Dublin; and that Mr. Fenton when a candidate for Sligo Corporation was defeated by the hon. Member; can the communications made by Mr. Fenton to Dublin Castle, advising the present prosecution of the hon. Member, or those from Dublin Castle to Mr. Fenton on the same subject, be laid upon the Table; and whether, in view of the fact that the hon. Member is the third defendant from County Sligo in civil proceedings against whom Mr. Fenton has claimed damages before a Belfast jury within the past twelve months, the Government will consider the desirability of transferring him from Sligo to Belfast with a view to prevent his civil and criminal engagements from clashing.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Mr. Fenton, in his capacity of Crown Solicitor for the County of Sligo, appeared in the ordinary course of his duty as solicitor to instruct counsel in the prosecutions under the Crimes Act directed by the Government on the advice of the law officers. Mr. Fenton also assisted, as he was bound to do, in the prosecution of the hon. Member for North Leitrim, referred to in the second paragraph. All the other proceedings mentioned in the question are proceedings taken by Mr. Fenton in vindication of his civil rights as an ordinary Member of the community. The Government are not in any way responsible for these proceedings, and see nothing in them inconsistent with his position as Crown Solicitor. Mr. Fenton will not be called upon by the Government for any explanation as to the form of the proceedings he has taken on his
  1126
  own behalf. There is no power to transfer him to Belfast, and even if the power existed the Government would not transfer such an efficient public officer from the scene of his useful labours.

  Under Sheriffs (Ireland) Bill.
  MR. LONSDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if the Government will afford facilities for the passage of the Under Sheriffs (Ireland) Bill during the present session, seeing that the measure has received the support of most of the mercantile bodies in Ireland.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I will consider this measure, but at this period of the session I doubt whether legislation can be profitably assisted unless it be of a wholly non-controversial character.

  Education Bill—Imperial Aid.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether it is contemplated by the Government that any portion of the cost of the Education Bill shall be borne by the Exchequer instead of wholly by rates levied by the local authority.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not in a position at the present time to make any statement on this point.

  Small Boroughs' Liability.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will state what will be the effect of the Education Bill on an educational endowment in a borough of less than 10,000 inhabitants which is sufficient, with the Government grants, to maintain the elementary schools; and whether a borough with such an endowment will be liable to be rated for the expense of the new local education authority.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Under the Bill a borough such as that mentioned by the hon. Gentleman would undoubtedly be liable to the county rate Some proposal will have to be made to meet the very difficulty which he suggests.
  MR. LAMBERT: When will the Government proposals be brought forward?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I hope in ample time for their consideration before they come up for discussion.

  Denominational Colleges and the Education Grant.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, before a renewal of the Treasury Minute regulating the distribution of the Parliamentary grant to universities and colleges in Great Britain, an opportunity will be afforded for considering whether any strictly denominational college should participate in such grant; and whether the vote for such colleges can be taken at a time when the subject can be discussed.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: As far as I am aware, there are no universities or colleges coming within the description mentioned in the Question.

  Voluntary School Grant.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the grant of five shillings per child payable to the voluntary schools in England and Wales under the Voluntary Schools Act, 1897, and amounting for the year 1900–1901 to £622,223, will be continued in the event of the Education Bill of this session becoming law.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Contributions by the Treasury towards voluntary schools will undoubtedly have to be continued to the local authority. In other words, the local authority will undoubtedly get, in those cases where the Act is adopted, the money which now goes to voluntary schools, but the actual provisions under which this is done have yet to be placed on the Paper, and I should be sorry that we should be led into a premature discussion with regard to them.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: Will the local authority have a free hand as to the distribution of these funds?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will reserve the Question until he sees the proposal.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the differences of opinion which exist with reference to the provisions of the Education Bill dealing with elementary education, he will consider the desirability of proceeding this session only with Part I. and Part II. of the Bill, which relate to higher education.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, Sir. It is impossible for me to accept the suggestion which the hon. Gentleman throws out.

  Army Medical Vote.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will state when he intends to take the Medical Vote on the Army Estimates.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, Sir, I cannot make any statement about that.

  Adjournment of the House for the Coronation.
  SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he can state when the House will adjourn for the Coronation proceedings, and when its sittings will be resumed.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I shall in due course inform the House of the course I shall advise them to adopt with regard to a holiday at the time of the Coronation; but I think any such anouncement or suggestion on my part would be premature at the present moment.

  London Elections Bill.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been called to the fact that the London Elections Bill deals with the re-arrangement of areas for Parliamentary elections, with which it has not hitherto been customary to deal except at the time of and in connection with a general redistribution of Parliamentary seats, and whether he was informed by the Local Government Board of the intention

  1129
  so to deal with Parliamentary areas before the Bill was introduced under the new Rule, all question or division on the matter being thus precluded.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think the Bill to which the right hon. Baronet refers hardly comes under the description of a redistribution Bill. As I understand, it was pressed on my right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board by both Parties, and has no political significance whatever. Under those circumstances I hope it will pass through the House without difficulty.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Reported from the Standing Committee on Trade, etc., with Amendments.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 197.]
  Minutes of the Proceedings of the Committee to be printed. [No. 197.]
  Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration Tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 226.]

  COMMITTEE ON STEAMSHIP SUBSIDIES.
  (3.0.) Motion made and Question proposed, "That Sir Charles Cayzer, Mr. Evelyn Cecil, Mr. Cust, Colonel Denny, Mr. Duke, Mr. Joyce, Mr. W. F. Lawrence, Mr. Norman, Mr. Nussey, Mr. Price, Mr. William Redmond, Colonel Ropner, Sir Edward Sassoon, Mr. Alfred Thomas, and Sir Edgar Vincent, be members of the Committee; that the evidence taken before the Select Committee on Steamship Subsidies in the last Session of Parliament be referred to the Select Committee; that the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records; that five be the quorum."—(Sir William Walrond.)
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid that Sir Charles Cayzer and two other Gentlemen proposed as members of the Committee were connected with the shipping interest. He consequently opposed this Motion, although he would not divide the House against it, because he did not think it proper that hon. Gentlemen should serve on Select Committees
  1130
  which were appointed to deal with subjects in which they might be personally interested. This Committee could not, he contended, be in any true sense of the word a judicial Committee, if Sir Charles Cayzer was a member of it.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Ordered, that Sir Charles Cayzer, Mr. Evelyn Cecil, Mr. Cust, Colonel Denny, Mr. Duke, Mr. Joyce, Mr. W. F. Lawrence, Mr. Norman, Mr. Nussey, Mr. Price, Mr. William Redmond, Colonel Ropner, Sir Edward Sassoon, Mr. Alfred Thomas, and Sir Edgar Vincent, be members of the Committee.
  Ordered, That the evidence taken before the Select Committee on Steamship Subsidies in the last Session of Parliament be referred to the Select Committee.
  Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers and records.
  Ordered, That five be the quorum.—(Sir William Walrond.)

NEW BILL.
  CRUELTY TO ANIMALS BILL.
  "To amend The Cruelty to Animals Act, 1876," presented by Mr. Banbury under Standing Order 31; supported by Colonel Lockwood, Mr. Paulton, and Mr. Swift MacNeill; to be read a second time upon Friday, and to be printed. (Bill 227.)

EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
Order read for the House to be put into Committee.
MR. SPEAKERsaid—There are several notices of Instructions to the Committee on this Bill. Those standing in the name of the hon. Member for South Molton, the hon. Member for Middlesbrough, and the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire are out of order because they propose to empower the Committee to make a charge upon the Exchequer. That is a Motion which can only be entertained by the Committee if, first of all, there has been a resolution passed in a special

1131
Money Committee, on the Motion of a I Minister of the Crown. The Instruction standing in the name of the noble Lord the Member for Woolwich proposes to empower the Committee to insert a provision that military training should be obligatory in all schools supported by public funds. That is outside the scope of the Bill, which does not propose to deal with what I may call the curriculum of education. Three other Instructions standing in the names of the hon. Member for South Molton, the hon. Member for West Denbighshire, and the hon. Member for Oldham, all have for their object the division of the Bill into two separate Bills, one dealing with secondary and the other with elementary education. Such an Instruction is only in order either where the Bill is drawn in two distinct parts enabling the House to deal with Part I. and then with Part II. separately as they stand, or where the Bill naturally falls into two separate parts or subjects. That, I think, is not the case here. The main feature of the Bill is that there should be one education authority dealing both with primary; and secondary education, and that is carried out by a Bill which includes a part dealing only with secondary education and another part dealing only with primary education, but also contains many clauses common to both. Therefore, it would be necessary to re-draft the proposal in order to make of it two separate measures. I think this is not one of those cases in which an Instruction to the Committee so to divide the Bill into two would be in order. The only other Instruction is in the name of the hon. Member for the Leigh Division. He proposes that the Committee may have power to constitute the education authority in such a manner that women and clerks in holy orders shall be capable of being elected to it. It will be quite in order for the bon. Member to move Amendments for the purpose of constituting in a different manner the authority proposed in the Bill, and to propose that women and clerks in holy orders may be members of that authority. And as that can be done by Amendment, it is bad as an Instruction. In saying this, I must guard myself against its being supposed
1132
that I am suggesting that any Amendment would be in order which proposed that women and clerks in holy orders could be elected members of Town Councils. My ruling is that it is quite possible for the hon. Member to alter the authority by Amendment in such a way that it would be capable of including women and clerks in holy orders, and therefore an Instruction is out of order.
Bill considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
Clause 1:—
MR. CHANNINGmoved to postpone Clause 1. If the Bill was a simple straightforward measure, the principle of which was in the first Clause and every part coherent and logically bound together, this amendment might be unreasonable. But this Bill was, an abnormal Bill, and its nature was not disclosed in the first clause. The real principle and the motive power' the mainspring of the Bill, lay in the adoption of the Bishops' Scheme for subsidising the voluntary schools, which was confused with many good educational proposals from all sides of the House—the whole being an incoherent, illogical, and unworkable mutually destructive set of proposals.
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is now making a Second Reading speech. The hon. Member must confine himself to his reasons for postponing the first clause.
MR. CHANNINGsaid that if the Chairman had listened to him another moment he would have seen that his contention was that the interpretation of the first clause must depend upon what decisions the Committee would arrive at on numerous issues raised by subsequent clauses of the Bill. His point was that the principle of the Bill was the subsidising of voluntary schools, and that that was not disclosed in the first clause. He maintained that the Bill was inconsistent, illogical, and contradictory, and therefore it was reasonable that the

1133
Committee should have an opportunity of ascertaining, by discussion, the form that those proposals would ultimately take before they were asked to decide the constitution of the authority in whose charge the proposals would be placed. He objected to the first clause on its merits, and thought the County Council only suitable for Secondary Education. But that he did not urge now. Assuming the proposal to be sound, he contended that the first clause contained the catchword of a single authority on which they had had many speeches, but that principle was completely falsified by the Bill. Until they saw in what form these heterogeneous proposals emerged from the Committee they could not tell how to deal with this clause. They could not even be sure that the Bill would not be in contradiction of the objects set out in the notice of the Bill. He claimed the right to show by one or two illustrations why the arguments he was using would justify the postponement of the clause. There was the question of whether they were to deal adequately with secondary education or only to deal with primary education by strengthening the voluntary schools. With regard to elementary education, it was conceivable that that might be excluded from the Bill. That would remove some objections, and if they could make this a good secondary education Bill they would then have no difficulty in accepting the Bill on the Opposition side. If elementary education was retained in the Bill, the conditions under which they would consent to this clause would be materially altered. Everyone acquainted with local rating and local government would at once see why this clause should be postponed. Many hon. Members were not as yet even aware that there was not one uniform basis of rates for education under the Bill throughout the country. Whether or not they voted against this clause depended largely upon the question whether the Government would accept the principle of a uniform basis for the new education rate;. Until they knew that the rating disabilities of urban districts under the Bill as it stood would be removed they would be unable to consider the clause in its present form. It was often
1134
assumed that the Second Reading bound you to assent to the principle, but in this case it is a principle which the Bill forthwith sets aside in every detail, and this clause cannot be dealt with without considering the rest of the Bill. The principles of drafting had considerably altered, and the practice of selecting one clause and putting it forward first as the backbone of the Bill was reasonable, and proper in the case of a measure which was simple and not destructive of the principle of the Bill. Until they knew the result of the discussion on many of those complicated and difficult issues on which there was a large divergence of opinion among hon. Members opposite as well as on the Opposition side, he de-dined to believe that all those matters would be settled on mere arbitrary party lines or by the party Whips, and he thought they would be considered rationally by friends of education in every part of the House. For those reasons he begged to move his Amedment.
Motion made, and Question proposed "That Clause 1 be postponed."—(Mr. Channing.)
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Amendment proposed by the hon. Member is simply a drafting Amendment. He bases his suggestion upon the opinion that the really essential part of the Bill is that part which gives assistance to voluntary schools. The hon. Gentleman has no grounds for that statement. He also asks why the backbone of the Bill should be placed in the front. I think it is good drafting to place the principle on which the Bill depends in the early part of the measure, and undoubtedly this practice is desirable where it can be carried out. There is nothing new in this course. The mere fact that we have not brought forward a Bill which embraces the whole scope of secondary and primary education is not sufficient reason to alter the order which the House showed no disposition to disapprove of last year, and which is for the general convenience.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: The right hon. Gentleman has said that the cardinal

1135
principle of this Bill is the establishment; of a single education authority, but there is no statement to that effect in the Bill. On the contrary, the Bill refers to "the local education authorities." There is no statement that there is a single education authority in this Bill. Therefore the whole argument is totally false. When you look at the Bill itself, it is perfectly obvious that it does not even contemplate a single authority, because it leaves it optional whether voluntary education is to be in the Bill at all. It is quite plain that the whole of the voluntary schools are outside this Bill. Therefore the statement of the right hon. Gentleman is one absolutely inconsistent with the whole framework of the Bill. On the contrary, when the Bill is examined, it will be found that there is not one single authority, but there are three authorities.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The right hon. Gentleman is misrepresenting me. I was dealing only with a drafting matter in regard to the postponement, and I was not going into the principle.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: The question is whether there is to be a single education authority.
THE CHAIRMAN: That is not the point we are considering at the present moment. The question is whether we are to consider this clause first or last.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: If it is merely a matter of postponement, that is quite a secondary question. I would submit that what my hon. friend has stated is correct, that we cannot form an opinion of what ought to be the local education authority until we know what that authority will have to do. This clause proposes to make the Council of every county and of every county borough the local education authority, but it depends upon what they will have to do whether we shall consider them the best authorities or not. Therefore we really cannot deal with Clause 1, without discussing what these Councils which are made the local authorities shall have power to do. This Bill professes to establish a single education authority, and to vest that authority in the Councils of the boroughs and the
1136
counties. That being so, we must consider whether in the framework of this Bill the authority which is taken is to be endowed by the Bill with such powers as will enable it to conduct the education of the country efficiently. This makes it a vital question, and it is upon this clause that we must raise the question of what County Councils and Borough Councils are to do under this Bill. This question may be raised now upon the Motion to postpone the clause until we have examined the powers to be given to the local education authorities, or it may be raised upon the clause itself. It is a vital question, as the right hon. Gentleman very truly said, and that is why it is put forward in the first clause of the Bill. It is, therefore, upon the first clause that we must discuss what are the powers which are to give vitality to the Councils, and we must see what are to be the powers given to the Councils.
THE CHAIRMAN: The proper time to discuss the matters which the right hon. Gentleman has indicated is when I put the Question that this clause stand part of the Bill. That is the time when all the points connected with this clause which the right hon. Gentleman has referred to can be raised, if the Amendments to the Clause do not sufficiently raise them.
SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid as he understood the Government were going to change the financial portion of this Bill very largely; that had already been stated, and he believed that they would have to change it to a far larger extent than they anticipated. It was impossible to discuss this clause until the Committee was aware what those financial changes were, and the proposal, as he understood it, was to postpone the discussion until they were in possession of that information. He supported the Amendment.
DR. MACNAMARAsupported the Amendment. He believed that if the Government had a little further time to consider the matter they would see good reason for postponing the discussion of the first clause.

1137
In the Government proposal of 1896 all this matter was left to the localities. So far as he was concerned, he thought the County Boroughs ought to have the right to continue the excellent Committees which they elected ad hoc; and he hoped the Government would see the wisdom of reverting again to the policy of 1896, with regard to County Boroughs. Then with regard to autonomy for small boroughs, he was convinced that if he was given a little time the First Lord would see the utter absurdity of giving to a small municipality of 10,000 persons that which he would refuse to an urban district of 20,000. The right hon. Gentleman would, he was certain, see the necessity of adopting the same policy with regard to both classes of boroughs. It was in this regard that the Act of 1896 broke down. Under the Act there were 220 local authorities.
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is taking an opportunity here of making a general attack on the first clause. He is not entitled to do that now; he must wait until the clause is under discussion.
DR. MACNAMARAdisclaimed any such intention. All he desired to say was that as there had been a change in the mind of the Government in June, 1896, between six o'clock and ten o'clock, perhaps if a little more time were given now they might change their minds on this occasion.
MR. HERBERT ROBERTSsaid that the Government would recognise at the outset that every line of this Bill raised a diverging line of discussion in all parts of the country. One of the main reasons for his desiring the postponement of this clause was, because of the present state of the permissive clause A great deal would depend upon what attitude the Government took upon that matter. In the majority of cases the Municipal Councils would not elect to advance the elementary education of the country, and then would arise the question as to what the proper constitution of the Authority should be. That itself seemed to be a reasonable ground for asking the Government to make a statement upon this point.
SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid the course now suggested by the Government was identically the same as that which was adopted by the Liberal Government in 1894, when the right hon. Member for East Wolverhampton brought in his Bill for the reform of local and provincial self-government. The Government were only asking the Opposition to adopt the course then adopted. It was a reasonable, request, and he hoped the House would assent to it without further debate.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down seemed to think that because a wrong practice was adopted in 1894 the right thing to do was to adopt it in this case. In 1894 it was a question of Parish Councils, and the Government then put the controversial part of the scheme in the forefront; the House of Commons was then proposing to elaborate and build upon a foundation which had been started. That was just the reason why the Government should review their position with regard to this matter. Many of those interested in education would like to get rid of the controversial portions of this measure so that they might approach the question of the Local Education Authorities with a perfectly open mind. The right hon. Gentleman must be perfectly well aware that at the present moment they could not approach that question with an unprejudiced mind. He did not think it desirable, from the point of view of the authorities, to split up the country into urban districts. In Glamorganshire there were eighteen Local Education Authorities. Under this Bill the County Council of Glamorgan would jump over one district to get into the next. He believed these things were obnoxious to those who had no opinion at all from the denominational point of view, but who were simply thinking of the way in which this machinery was going to work. He implored the right hon. Gentleman to allow the House to get rid of that part of the Bill which was controversial, and settle that, and then they would come with a less prejudiced mind to the other details of educational methods. There was the question of whether the cost of the schools was to be

1139
met by a grant, or whether it was to be thrown upon the rates, which was a vital question in considering the authorities. The reason the Urban Councils were thrown in with the Bill as authorities, was obviously to make the rating problem more easy. These things had been thrown in purely and simply from the rating point of view. The rate was a dominant element in considering this problem. It would be far better to get rid of all these controversial points, and for the House to discuss the matter in a more businesslike way. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman as a "One Authority" man. There were many "One Authority" men who
could discuss the question as a clean issue from the point of view of the "One Authority" which the right hon. Gentlemen desired, if the consideration of this clause was postponed.
MR. MARTINasked whether the whole of the Amendments to Clause 1 would have to be disposed of before the clause, as it stood, could be considered.
(3.43.) Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 122; Noes, 288. (Division List, No. 189.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Rigg, Richard

Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

Harmsworth, R. Leicester

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Atherley-Jones, L.

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Runciman, Walter

Banes, Major George Edward

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Russell, T. W.

Barlow, John Emmott

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

Schwann, Charles E.

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Holland, William Henry

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Horniman, Frederick John

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Black, Alexander William

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Broadhurst, Henry

Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth

Soares, Ernest J.

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Kitson, Sir James

Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Labouchere, Henry

Stevenson, Francis S.

Caine, William Sproston

Lambert, George

Strachey, Sir Edward

Caldwell, James

Langley, Batty

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Cameron, Robert

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Tennant, Harold John

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

Causton, Richard Knight.

Leng, Sir John

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

Cawley, Frederick

Levy, Maurice

Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

Craig, Robert Hunter

Lloyd-George, David

Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

Cremer, William Randal

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Tomkinson, James

Crombie, John William

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

Toulmin, George

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

M'Crae, George

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Davies M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

M'Kenna, Reginald

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Markham, Arthur Basil

Weir, James Galloway

Duncan, J. Hastings

Mather, William

White, George (Norfolk)

Dunn, Sir William

Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Edwards, Frank

Norman, Henry

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Elibank, Master of

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Ellis, John Edward

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Emmott, Alfred

Partington, Oswald

Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

Paulton, James Mellor

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Fenwick, Charles

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Perks, Robert William

Yoxall, James Henry

Fuller, J. M. F.

Pickard, Benjamin

Furness, Sir Christopher

Price, Robert John

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

Priestley, Arthur

Mr. Channing and Mr.

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Rea, Russell

Herbert Lewis.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Ambrose, Robert

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F.

Aird, Sir John

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Allsopp, Hon. George

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison

Arrol, Sir William

Flower, Ernest

Macdona, John Cumming

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Flynn, James Christopher

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Austin, Sir John

Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Foster, Philips. (Warwick, S. W

Maconochie, A. W.

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Gardner, Ernest

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Garfit, William

M'Calmont, Col. H. L. B. (Cambs

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

M'Govern, T.

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Gilhooly, James

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Banbury, Frederick George

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin&Nairn)

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

M'Kean, John

Bartley, George C. T.

Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

Malcolm, Ian

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Manners, Lord Cecil

Beresford, Lord Charles William

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Bigwood, James

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Maxwell, Rt. Hn Sir H. E. (Wigt'n

Bill, Charles

Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS. Edm'nds

Maxwell, W. J H (Dumfriesshire

Blake, Edward

Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Boland, John

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Middlemore, John Throgmorton

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

Groves, James Grimble

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

Gunter, Sir Robert

Mitchell, William

Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

Hain, Edward

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Midd'x

Mooney, John J.

Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.)

Hammond, John

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

Brymer, William Ernest

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

Bullard, Sir Harry

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

Morrell, George Herbert

Burke, E. Haviland-

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Morrison, James Archibald

Butcher, John George

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.

Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham (Bute

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Heaton, John Henniker

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Helder, Augustus

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Myers, William Henry

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.

Hogg, Lindsay

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton)

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

Chapman, Edward

Horner, Frederick William

O'Brien, Kendal (TipperaryMid

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Hoult, Joseph

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Hudson, George Bickersteth

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.)

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

O'Malley, William

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

O'Mara, James

Cranborne, Viscount

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

Crean, Eugene

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Parker, Gilbert

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.)

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

Davenport, William Bromley-

Kimber, Henry

Pemberton, John S. G.

Delany, William

Knowles, Lees

Penn, John

Denny, Colonel

Laurie, Lieut.-General

Percy, Earl

Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo.

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Dickinson, Robert Edmond

Lawson, John Grant

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Leamy, Edmund

Power, Patrick Joseph

Dillon, John

Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

Pretyman, Ernest George

Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Donelan, Captain A.

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Purvis, Robert

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

Rankin, Sir James

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Ratcliff, R. F.

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Rattigan, Sir William Henry

Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Reid, James (Greenock)

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

Lowe, Francis William

Remnant, James Farquharson

Ffrench, Peter

Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Finch, George H.

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Richards, Henry Charles

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Fisher, William Hayes

Lundon, W.

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

1142

1143

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Wills, Sir Frederick

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Rutherford, John

Sullivan, Donal

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

Thorburn, Sir Walter

Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Thornton, Percy M.

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

Saunderson, Rt Hn. Col. Edw. J.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

Valentia, Viscount

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Seton-Karr, Henry

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Walker, Col. William Hall

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Wyndham-Qnin, Major W. H.

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Young, Samuel

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

Younger, William

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Webb, Colonel William George

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

Spear, John Ward

Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Sir William Walrond and

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M 'Taggart

Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

Mr. Anstruther.

Stock, James Henry

Williams, Rt Hn J. Powell-(Birm

THE CHAIRMAN: The Amendment on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for Saffron Walden is not in order. The Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Northamptonshire, which he proposes to insert at the beginning of the clause, is not in order, because it constitutes an alternative to the first clause. The proper course is to get rid of the first clause, and then it will be in order.
MR. CHANNING: Can the first Amendment be considered by itself or treated as an Amendment?
THE CHAIRMAN: The proper way to raise the question is the form in which the hon. Member for South Molton raises it.
MR. LAMBERTsaid his Amendment proposed to confine the Bill to education other than elementary. It was quite enough for the Government to deal with secondary education in this Bill. The clauses were so vague that definite instructions would have to be given to the local authorities in order that they should know what they had to do. The Government had no mandate whatever for throwing the whole of our educational arrangements into the melting pot. Two Royal Commissions had reported on this question, and neither of them recommended that elementary education should be dealt with in the way suggested in this Bill. No large representative body had recommended that elementary education should be placed under the control of a Committee

1144
of the County Council, and the only body which had recommended that elementary education should be dealt with in this Bill was Convocation. He-did not think the Government could accept Convocation as a representative body. The County Councils had the whiskey money to deal with, and because they spent that money and committed a good many blunders the right hon. Gentleman now thought it was wise to put elementary education in their hands, although his proposal destroyed bodies of great experience which had had thirty years' experience in administering education. He did not see how this Bill would work, or how the local education authority could really carry out its functions in large counties.
If this Amendment was rejected and elementary education was brought in, voluntary schools would be managed practically as they were now. In the boroughs the managers of voluntary schools would be on the spot and would have a local and direct interest in the management of the schools; but in the rural parish the School Board which had often been found to be a very efficient authority would be abolished. How was the local educational authority to carry out the duty of administering the Education Act? He presumed that this duty would devolve upon Parish Councils, but they would have no direct rating authority, and they could only advise the County Council upon questions which the Parish Council itself would not have to pay for, and would have no responsibility for its advice. If the local education authority did not adopt the Parish Council as the authority, they

1145
would have to adopt a system of inspection. and there would be nothing more unpopular in a country district than the appointment of inspectors and officials for carrying out this Act. Suppose the local authority required some repairs to be done, it could not order them to be done without submitting an estimate to the County Council. He was strongly of opinion that they would have red tapeism intensified under this Bill. Local responsibility would be destroyed, and there would be no efficiency or economy in education under the proposals contained in this measure, and this view was borne out by the Archbishop of Canterbury. Before the right hon. Gentleman dealt with elementary education he would advise him to create an authority to take the place of the local School Board. It was very easy to destroy, but not quite so easy to create. This Bill was drafted in such a vague manner that the local authority would be left to muddle through. The Technical Education Committees at present were doing admirable work on the County Councils, but they had quite enough to do now, and this Bill would add enormously to their labours. It was absolutely impossible for the County Council to deal adequately with education in such a large county as Devonshire, and bring in to the work that local interest and knowledge which was so essential in order to deal successfully with elementary education. If this Amendment were accepted the local education authority would have to deal with all the higher grade schools which were ruled out by the Cockerton judgment, the training of teachers, and training colleges, and surely that was sufficient for an experiment. This clause would absolutely destroy the efficiency of those schools. The Vice-President of the Council said that what was unsatisfactory in regard to elementary education was in the country want of money, and in towns want of supervision. How were they going to get in the county of Devonshire efficiency from men who did not know anything at all about the subject. As to the money, they ought to know what the financial proposals of the Bill were going to be, for they might very materially alter their opinion of the Bill. If the proposals of this measure
1146
were put into operation there would be no chance of a twopenny rate being levied for secondary education. Sir Thomas Acland said that this part of the Bill was so much waste paper.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! That is quite irrelevant.
MR. LAMBERTsaid he was endeavouring to show that it was a disadvantage to bring elementary education into the Bill. If they brought elementary education into the Bill it would mean that in Devonshire the rate would be 4d. or 6d. in the £1. Did anyone think that education could be dealt with in the counties where they would have such a strenuous opposition to any increase in the rates at all? They knew perfectly well that there was nothing the rural ratepayers took so much interest in as the rates. If the elementary education proposals were carried, and a rate of 4d. or 6d. were levied, they would have great economy, and more than economy—great stinginess in the money voted for education. He would not detain the House by going into the question of the voluntary schools, but there was one point which was well worthy of the right hon. Gentleman's consideration. By leaving out elementary education, the religious question would not be raised in an acute form. He had received letters from constituents who had never supported the Liberal Party, and who stated that if the proposals in the Bill with regard to elementary education were carried in their present form they would not be able to support the Conservative Party in future. The West Riding County Council had carried a resolution which was absolutely on all fours with the Amendment he now proposed. The Isle of Wight had also carried a resolution hostile to the proposals in the Bill. The Technical Education Committee of Devon County Council had passed a resolution, and he had no doubt it would be carried at the next meeting of the council, against the bringing of elementary education under their purview. It would be very much better to leave elementary education out of the Bill, and to deal thoroughly with secondary education. If that were not done the control of elementary education would be forced on

1147
many unwilling authorities who would be obliged to increase the rates which the right hon. Gentleman was pledged to lessen, and an outrage would be committed on the consciences of the Nonconformist portion of the community.
Amendment proposed.—
"In page l, line 7, to leave out the words 'the purposes of this Act,' and insert the words 'education other than elementary.'"—[Mr. Lambert.]
Question proposed, "That the words 'the purposes of this Act' stand part of the clause."
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have often explained to the House the reasons which have induced the Government to frame a comprehensive measure; and I ask the House to assent to it rather than to confine itself to the single problem presented by secondary education. The difficulty of dealing with secondary education alone, as the hon. Gentleman opposite is perfectly aware, has been enhanced by recent legal decisions. He, I understand, accepts these decisions as the basis of any proper Amendment of primary education, because he looks forward, were his Amendment carried, to the County Council managing not only secondary education and technical education, but also evening continuation schools, pupil teacher centres, and all the rest of it—all the matters which are transferred by the Cockerton judgment from the purview of the School Boards, and which were declared to be beyond their powers. I do not think a Bill of that kind would receive much approval from the urban School Boards. I am convinced that the hon. Member for North Camber-well would regard a Bill which simply cut down the privileges of the existing School Boards, and left them without any control or authority over the voluntary schools, and no power of continuing their work in regard to evening schools or pupil teacher centres, as most imperfect. The hon. Member for South Molton does not, I think, speak for the great bulk of hon. Members on his side of the House when he puts forward this proposal. The hon. Gentleman seems to think that the immediate result of the Bill as we have proposed it would be that the whole management of
1148
the primary schools would fall into the hands of a body incapable, from the mere amount of work entrusted to them to do that work properly, and incapacitated by their distance from the local schools, to manage those schools with any directness and economy of time and labour. He seems to think that all their proceedings will be involved in red tape; that they themselves will have to lay down odious restrictions; and that they would have responsibility but no control. If the hon. Gentlemen had listened to the speech on the Second Reading of Debate delivered by my hon. friend, I think he would have been convinced by one of the greatest experts on local and county government that his fears under that head are baseless, and that he need not entertain any vain terrors lest this particular class of evil should overtake the County Council. I utterly fail to understand what his alternative plan proposes with regard to primary education in the counties. I do not ask the Opposition to construct Bills for the Government. It is perfectly legitimate to vote against the Second Reading of a Bill, if you have no better to put in its place; but we have our plan and the hon. Gentleman is trying to amend it, and he ought to tell us what he really wishes to establish in the counties and boroughs. I fail to understand exactly what that is. I fancy that he wishes to leave the School Boards in the counties exactly as they are, and to leave the voluntary schools in the counties exactly as they are. Does he propose that as an alterative plan, and, if that be his alternative plan, is it in the interest of the ratepayers? The hon. Gentleman has said a great deal about the ratepayers in the course of his speech, and he led us to understand that he was pleading for the ratepayers. What is the policy he suggested in the interest of the ratepayers? I understood the hon. Gentleman to suggest that we should separate primary and secondary education in the meanwhile, and that the county ratepayer, not feeling the burden of elementary education over him, should at once be introduced to secondary education on his twopenny rate.
MR. LAMBERTindicated dissent.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: If that is not so, I fail to understand what that branch of the hon. Gentleman's argument was directed to. He said that one of the evils of our associating the two portions of education together was that the County Council, would not manage it on a twopenny rate. I do not know whether they will or will not, but I am perfectly certain it ought not to be induced to spend a twopenny rate on the ground that it is at some day or other, either by this or another Bill, to have the responsibility for primary education. When I hear that this Bill is an attack on the interests of the ratepayers I really am amazed. Is it not perfectly clear to everybody, that if this Bill is not passed, the voluntary schools will be allowed one by one to be extinguished, which I understand is the policy of the right hon. Gentleman? If that be done a more disastrous fate will overtake the country ratepayers, than the fourpenny rate of which the hon. Gentleman speaks. Whether we consider the interests of the ratepayers or of education in counties or boroughs, we are alike driven to the conclusion that if we are to introduce any kind of order out of the chaos which at present exists, if we are going to bring the education authority which is to look after the elementary education of the country into relation with the education authority, which is to provide the teachers of the country, and the secondary education of the country, you will be compelled to come to the conclusion that we have come to that it is only by identifying these authorities and making them coalesce in one single authority and giving all the power into one set of hands—it is only by that machinery you really can produce that orderly arrangement of our education which has so long been wanting, and which educational reformers have so long desired.
DR. MACNAMARAsaid he sympathised very much with the mover of the Amendment who, he understood, believed in the principle of one authority for all grades of education, both primary and secondary. He understood, however, that the position taken up by the hon. Gentleman was that the authority proposed in the Bill was so bad that he desired to dissociate elementary education

1150
from its control. He said that the real reform which was required was in connection with secondary education. That was acute no doubt. For thirty years, middle class people had been paying school rates for the education of other people's children, while they had to undertake the education of their own children at considerable expense. It was a fair thing for them to ask—and as they had asked, the Government now proposed to reply to them—that something should be done for the organisation of secondary education out of public funds. Whether it was to be done out of State funds or out of the rates was a matter on which they should hear by and by. But that was not the real acute educational problem of this moment. The real acute problem was in connection with the hopeless state of education in the elementary voluntary schools. There were 5,500,000 children in all the elementary schools, and of that number 3,000,000 were in the voluntary schools and the rest in the board schools. Although all the schools got part of the money given by the Central Exchequer, the voluntary school people had to depend largely for the maintenance of their schools on local contributions. He was sorry that he could not take part in any proposition which did not give immediate attention to the condition of the children in the voluntary schools. If these schools were excepted from the Bill the result would be that we would have a number of conflicting authorities, and money would be wasted by the duplication of administrative machinery. If time permitted he could show that a large amount of the money spent on education was wasted by the useless multiplication of small autonomous authorities for education. School Committees would squabble as to what were their respective areas. The worst of it was that if elementary education was struck out of the Bill, the Schools would not be linked together so as to allow the elementary children to move from one school to another. It so happened that he went to an elementary school in Exeter, but no boy there had ever found his way to the endowed grammar school. And why? Because the secondary school was managed by another authority. The important consideration today was to get all the schools

1151
under one authority, so as to prevent friction or overlapping, and, most important of all, to link those schools and harmonise their aims so that they might constitute an educational ladder from the elementary school to the university. It was for that reason that he was compelled to vote for the Amendment.
MR. ATHERLEY-JONESsaid he had listened with surprise to the speech of the hon. Member for North Camberwell, because he knew of many instances where endowed schools were linked with elementary schools. Apart from that, he contended that the School Boards had discharged their duty most effectually. He wanted to ask the right hon. Gentleman a plain question—whether the rural School Boards were to be done away with because some of them were inefficient? If so he might remind the right hon. Gentleman that under Section 40 of the Act of 1870, power was given to the Education Department, under the Privy Council, to consolidate or unite certain small School Board districts, so that, being amalgamated, they might form an effective School Board. His contention was that the county area was too large for the effective supervision of elementary education. He had not a word to say against the voluntary schools, because in his own constituency they had a number of exceedingly efficient and well equipped voluntary schools. But what they, in the north of England, wanted to know was, "Why are you going to abolish our School Boards; we are vigorous and active; our members have given a large portion of their life to the cause of education, and we think that we have done our work well considering our great experience. Why should you ask us to become members of the County Council? We are not prepared for that, because the duties of the members of the County Council are outside the range of our interest and experience." One of the most capable of men in the north of England had told him the other day that if this Bill passed and if the County Council abolished the School Board he would be constrained to part company with the County Council, of
1152
which he had been a member since it was originated. He admitted that there was a great deal to be said for denominational schools, but his objection to the Bill was that it destroyed altogether the School Board schools, and he insisted that no justification had been shown for the abolition of School Boards. If secondary education was a difficulty, why not give the School Boards a power of control over secondary education?
MR. TREVELYANsaid he very largely shared the idea of the hon. Member for North Camberwell, and he should like to see one authority for all education. He was bound to say that he felt more strongly about secondary education, because there was no doubt that in the north of England they were better off in regard to elementary education than in the rural districts in other parts of the country. What the industrial community in the North wanted more than anything else was a sound secondary system, and they could not look at any Bill which did not give them this. What chance was there of secondary education under this Bill? The real issue of this Bill was, elementary education. Secondary education, with all the new duties imposed, upon it, was out in the cold; it was only to have a 2d rate applied to it; it was I to be pinched for want of money; all compulsion was to be left out of the Bill. There was to be no real scheme for secondary education. But there was something more serious, and that was what the electorate was going to think about if it was to work the Bill as it stood, and that was not education. If this Bill was passed, it was going to raise nothing but religious wrangles; the elections would not be on the educational question, but merely religious controversies. There was a chance of the refusal of the rate for voluntary schools by Nonconformist Councils, so long as there was a test for teachers. Then there would be the wrangle between these Councils and the Education Department. The Nonconformists of this country had got past the stage of persecution, past the stage of mild disability: I they had got to the stage of toleration; but in this case the Government were doing what the Nonconformists of the

1153
country almost universally believed to be an act of gross injustice. But he did not now put forward the view of non-conformity. He asked those who disagreed with that view what chance was there if they raised all this bitter feeling? It was for these reasons they were bound to try and save something out of the wreck, and for these reasons it was necessary to get a Bill dealing in some measure with secondary education. If the Government would announce that they would set up a really representative authority for the control of education, and that, where public money and rates were expended, there should be proportionate representation on the local management, the attitude of the Opposition might be modified. He supported the Amendment.
MR. EMMOTTsaid he supported the Amendment, and in doing so, he had done what the Government had done in the previous year. He believed the right thing was to deal with secondary education first—to provide an authority for secondary education, and to test and prove that authority—before handing over to it the extra work of elementary education. Elementary education was universal, it was compulsory, it was practically free, and for the most part it was good; but we had most in-adequate provision for secondary education. We had no knowledge even of the number of our secondary schools, of their pupils or their teachers; and with all this we had to face the future handicapped and hampered by our indifference. France and Germany had been organising their secondary as well as their primary education for a long period, but we, with perhaps the finest raw material in the world, were not making full use of it. The two questions to be considered were, firstly, should secondary education be dealt with separately and alone; and secondly, even if the scheme of the Government were right (and everyone admitted the desirability of the one authority), was there any reasonable chance of dealing with both this session? Until this session secondary education was dealt with on a separate basis. Why was this sudden change? He did not admit the cry of one authority for all grades. He was not sure whether
1154
it was a true cry. It was no doubt a true ideal, but he thought that ideal should be approached rather by a system of evolution than a system of revolution. This cry of "one authority" was like the blessed word Mesopotamia. The phrase was not a true one. They had four authorities for each voluntary school. The new authority and area was good for secondary education, but it certainly was not for elementary education. All these hundreds of elementary schools could not be dealt with by one central authority. With regard to rating, there were significant signs that the local authorities would not support secondary and technical education unless they had the definite duty laid upon them and unless they were left free to carry out this work. They would not be left satisfactorily free if they were burdened with the whole system of elementary education at the same time. Considering the period of the session and the bitterness of this contest, he asked the Government whether the eventual settlement of the question of elementary education would suffer if postponed till the secondary education problem was solved. In view of the great and glorious news of peace, he appealed to the Government not to associate a session which, for this and other reasons, would be so memorable, with the prolongation of such a bitter contest.
MR. CHANNINGthought that the issue raised was that, given a certain amount of money available, they should decide how that money could be most effectively used. That question could only admit of one answer. It seemed to him that technical and secondary education were the most urgent necessities of the times. He agreed that at the present time 3,000,000 children were not receiving so good an education as they might receive in the voluntary schools of the country: he did not deny that that matter would have to be dealt with at some time. But what he urged was that the imperative and urgent want of the country, and the want that was ever growing more and more urgent at the present time, was the rapid development of an adequate system of secondary education. No loss would be suffered, even in the point of

1155
view of hon. Members opposite interested in voluntary schools, if that question were deferred, and they concentrated their attention upon what was the greatest educational problem of the moment. The right hon. Gentleman might make a considerable alteration in the views of the Committee by an announcement as to the financial aid from Imperial sources. If elementary education was now dealt with, it was clear that the greater part of the rates available would be given to that side of education, owing to the pressure of the clergy and their supporters in this matter. They could not divide the Bill from the educational history of the last seven years, and that history was a history of seven years war against some of the most desirable educational forces of the country. The right hon. Gentleman had challenged this side of the House to produce an alternative. In his opinion, there was one alternative in the way in which elementary and secondary education had grown up under one elected authority in Scotland. Another alternative was the scheme laid before the country some time ago by Lord Spencer at Manchester, of a central authority for secondary education and local elective authorities for elementary education. He thought that was a workable scheme, or that, again, it was perfectly possible to reconcile the handling of secondary education on the lines of the Secondary Education Commission's Report, with direct representative authorities in smaller areas for elementary education. There were other alternatives to the right hon. Gentleman's scheme, but the point he wished to lay before the Committee was that, instead of going to the root of the question, which was our inability to compete with other nations of the world owing to our want of secondary education—instead of concentrating all our thought and energy and our present limited resources on this vital problem, this Bill was merely a Bill which would do little for secondary education, and had for its real object the knocking to pieces of the best machinery, and would sacrifice the future of education and the equipment of the nation to the interests of the least
1156
efficient schools. We had to face commercial competition and educational competition. We talked on trade, and of tying down the colonies to buy their goods of us, but Australia and Canada bought goods from America and Germany, because America and Germany had had the common sense to make their leaders of industry more ingenious and skilful, and by so doing they were enabled to supply the market at a cheaper rate. The A B C of economics at the present time——
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The hon. Member is wandering a long way from the point.
MR. CHANNING: On the contrary, Sir with all respect——
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! I do not think the hon. Member ought to contradict me in that way.
MR. CHANNINGdisclaimed any intention of disobeying the ruling of the Chair by the observation which he made. All he desired was to point out the grave deficiency of our secondary education. It was nearly forty years ago since the most brilliant genius who had ever served the cause of education in this country, Mr. Matthew Arnold, in his classical report to the Schools Inquiry Commission on education abroad, pointed out how hopelessly behind we were in scientific and systematic training. While he showed that in Germany secondary education had been organised two generations before, and in Switzerland one generation before his inquiry, here we were still—a whole generation later than Matthew Arnold, absolutely unequipped for higher education. We were still in a very chaos of inefficiency.
THE CHAIRMANsaid that was not the occasion for a lecture on secondary education. The only point was whether any part of elementary education should be included or not.
MR. CHANNINGsaid the point he desired to impress on the Committee was that, while our system of elementary education required various reforms, it

1157
was in no sense in as urgent a position as secondary education. The Association of Technical Institutions had put forward that very contention—that an effective Secondary Education Bill should be passed forthwith, that we were giving a real scientific education only to a very small number of young persons over 15 years of age and between 15 and 19 years of age, and that even those who were being thus educated had not the advantages of a thorough grounding in suitable and efficient secondary schools as in Germany and America; whereas in Germany and America technical instruction was being given to students over 18 years of age, and in vastly greater numbers.
THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! I have thrice called the hon. Member to order for irrelevancy, but he persists in pursuing the same topic. I must, therefore, ask the hon. Member to discontinue his speech.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEthought that, in supporting this Amendment, it was not necessary to discuss the relative merits of School Boards and County Councils. Personally, he was a great believer in establishing the supreme authority of the County Council in matters of elementary education, but so far from doing that, the Bill proposed to set up several authorities. As far as secondary education was concerned, the County Council would still be the authority, because Town Councils in boroughs of over 10,000 inhabitants, and District Councils representing populations of over 20,000 would have to enter into arrangements with the County Councils before they could conduct schools for secondary education purposes. But that was not the proposal with regard to elementary education. A little experience was worth all the arguments in the world, and a glance at the system in Wales would help to enlighten the Committee as to the advisability of dealing with the two subjects separately. In no country was the sectarian controversy more acute than in Wales, and there was probably no part of the world in which there had been more fighting between Nonconformists and Churchmen.
SIR FRANCIS POWELL: Hear, hear.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that doubtless the hon. Baronet had a most faithful recollection of the controversy, because he took a very prominent, but as usual, a genial part in it. But what happened when, through the invaluable assistance of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dartford, who was then Vice-President of the Council, the Welsh Intermediate Education Bill was passed? If elementary education had been concerned, even the authority of the right hon. Gentleman would not have been sufficient to secure the present democratic authority. After the Bill was passed, one or two of the Bishops—particularly one—endeavoured to arouse all the sectarian spirit possible, but absolutely failed. All sections of the community worked together; the Committees were appointed without regard to sects or to denominational interests; they were in the hands of the lay element, and everything worked well. But if that Bill had covered both secondary and elementary education, all the sectarian venom on both sides would have been aroused, and the system completely broken down. Men would have been selected, not as educational experts, as at present—the best men in the district for the purpose being chosen—but for sectarian and political reasons, and instead of the system being worked in the interests of education, sectarian quarrels would have prevailed, while education suffered. In his opinion, it was not the authority that mattered so much, as that the authority whatever it was should be worked in good faith. Even a bad authority from the democratic point of view would work better than the theoretically perfect authority, if it was worked without bias or prejudice, purely in the interests of education. That could be done with regard to secondary education. If the elementary portion of the Bill were omitted, all these great controversies would drop, and the educational experts of the country would put their heads together and work the scheme for all it was worth. Why denominationalism and sectarianism should be introduced into elementary

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but not into secondary education he did not know. Perhaps it was because the children concernedin secondary education were better able to judge for themselves and did not become the prey of priests to the same extent as in the case of elementary education, but the fact remained that there was not the same controversy over the one as over the other. It would, therefore, be entirely in the interests of education to separate the two things in the present Bill. Another reason for taking this course was the question of expense. In Lancashire it was said it would cost 6d. in the £ to put the Bill into operation in regard to elementary education. If another twopence were added, the ratepayers would quarrel with it, and play into the hands of economists who took a thoroughly mean and shabby view of every enterprise, municipal or otherwise, and whose sole object was not to get a good system of education, but purely and simply to keep down the rates. There would be a combination of the denominationalists—whether Nonconformists or Churchmen—who happened to be in a minority, and the economists, and between them education in the particular district would be starved. He instanced the case of tradesmen rated at £100. With regard to the 6d. for elementary education he would have very little option, as the Board of Education would force him to spend a certain minimum upon the schools. That 6d. would mean £2 10s. on £100, and such a sum represented a considerable deduction from the tradesman's income. But would that man consent to another addition involving a further 16s. 8d. out of his income. Unless he was a very keen educationalist he would object to bear such a burden to provide secondary education for the children of people who could very well afford to pay for it themselves. Under such circumstances there would be a strong inducement for people to starve the secondary system; whereas if it was taken separately, as in Wales, the natural pride of the people in having the best school in the district would induce them to go up to the limit of the twopence. It had taken some counties ten years to go to the limit of the whiskey money—a gift really intended for technical education; how
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long, then, would it take them to persuade themselves to put on a twopenny rate for the purposes of secondary education? The First Lord would probably find it to the interests of his own scheme of the successful working of the Bill that the two systems should be separated.
MR. NUSSEYsaid that, while he was certainly not satisfied with the existing state of education, he was by no means convinced that the plan of the Government would effect any improvement. It was rather a pulling down than a building up. It seemed to him that such a step should be taken with great care. Were they quite sure that the Town Councils wanted this new power, and were they sure that they were the proper body to deal with education? He ventured to predict that at the Town Council election matters would be dominated by the education question and they would hear of such things as Church of England gas and Nonconformist roads. By this Bill they were introducing at those council elections controversies which were buried a long while ago. Recently the West Biding of Yorkshire County Council passed a resolution asking the Government to drop the elementary part of this Bill. How was it possible for a County Council meeting only three or four times a year to look after elementary education? By adopting this principle the Committee were adopting a dangerous expedient which might recoil upon the heads of the supporters of voluntary schools. He had never been a strenuous opponent of voluntary schools. But in his opinion there was not only a religious but the rating difficulty in regard to them, and this Bill proposed to put voluntary schools on the rates without giving the local authority any control over them. What they wanted in this country was a better scheme of secondary education which required improvement. For those reasons he believed the elementary part of the Bill ought to be dropped not only to avoid a religious controversy but rather in the interests of education itself.
MR. ASQUITH: I have been waiting in hope that we might

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hear from the other side of the House some sort of answer to the arguments which for two hours my hon. friends have advanced with brevity and force in support of the Amendment, and which have apparently been addressed to deaf ears or irresponsive minds on the Government Benches. No answer has been returned to these arguments. No one can say that those arguments have been without weight, or that they have not been presented to the Committee with clearness. This debate ceases to serve any useful purpose and becomes a mockery and a farce if the arguments on this side are to be received with unbroken silence on the other side. Although I do not profess to contribute much to what has already been said in support of the Amendment I will venture to summarise the arguments which have been addressed to the Committee in support of the Amendment which has been moved by my hon. friend behind me. This Amendment does not involve on the part of those who are going to support it any denial of the principles that co-ordination and, as far as possible, unification, in the educational authorities are desirable, and that there is urgent need for reform in the system of elementary education. These two principles are admitted by all sensible men in both parties who have given attention to the subject of education. The question at issue is one of administration rather than of principle. If we entrust the new authority with the function of providing secondary and higher education, and also transfer to it the duty of dealing with elementary education we shall of necessity so absorb the time and so burden the resources of the new authority that it will be unable to meet the more urgent of the two demands made upon it—namely, the provision of secondary education. That is a proposition which is put forward on this side of the House, and, as my hon. friend who has just sat down has pointed out with great force, whereas under this Bill the provisions with regard to secondary education are permissive, the provisions dealing with primary education are compulsory. Therefore the new authority must begin by undertaking, to the postponement of everything else, the enlarged powers and responsibilities in connection with primary education which the Bill
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propose to throw upon them. That is not the practical way of dealing with the matter. It is not that we are opposed to coordination, or that we do not wish to see the cessation of overlapping and waste which undoubtedly happens under the present system, but what the supporters of the Amendment say is that, as practical men, in dealing with an administrative problem of this kind, we must be content to go step by step. If the Amendment is accepted there will be created a competent authority for dealing with secondary education. We should then proceed, by slight Amendments in subsequent clauses, to make its function to provide secondary education not permissive, but compulsory; we should give adequate funds whether imperial or local, or both, for the performance of that task; and, lastly, but not least, we should absolutely exclude from its composition and working, in its early stages at least, and perhaps for all time, all extraneous influences, and particularly the intrusion of religious controversy. But if the Government persist in the scheme of the Bill they will run the risk, while not increasing the efficiency of elementary education, of postponing, what every one admits is our primary need—the establishment of a really effective system of secondary education. I hope that before we come to a division we shall have some reply to the arguments which have been addressed to the Committee.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I should not have thought it necessary to speak again, but for the direct challenge of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife. The right hon. Gentleman, I think, gives a rather rosy view of the contributions to the debate from the other side of the House, when he says that the argument which he has so admirably stated has been advanced unanimously by hon. Gentlemen behind him. As a matter of fact entirely different views of the Amendment were put forward from the other side. I do not say that by way of reproach, for this is a question upon which hon. Members opposite may honestly take different views. They agree in expressing their willingness to admit that an ideal educational authority is the County

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or the Borough Council dealing at the same time with primary and secondary education. Having announced that, you immediately proceed to defer that ideal to an ideal future. Let me state very briefly what I think is the position of the right hon. Gentleman. He seems to think that the one difficulty in our education, or, at any rate, the overwhelming difficulty in our education in the position of secondary education. Well, I do not agree with that. Bad as is the position of secondary education, no body can deny that under the existing system of primary education things need much reform, and will need reform more and more every year on account of the position of so many of those schools supported by voluntary contributions. That is the first proposition I advance. The second proposition, and it is even far more important from, an educational point of view, which I advance is that it is impossible for any authority properly to weigh and to decide upon the course it ought to pursue for secondary education without taking elementary into view; and conversely, that it is impossible for any authority to decide upon the course it ought to pursue for elementary education without taking secondary education into view. They are two indivisible parts of one great problem. The right hon. Gentleman would say to the County Council "You may consider secondary education, but, if you will, you must consider it in isolation. You must consider it financially and educationally in isolation, irrespective of the effect. When that is realised, you may then have a Bill to deal with primary education also." It should be remembered that unless elementary education be efficient no secondary schools are of the smallest use in the world. I do not believe that any secondary authority can carry out the work with the fullest advantage unless it has not only under its control or supervision secondary education, which is the crown of the work of primary education short of the universities, but, also absolute control of the whole apparatus by which the children of the country are to be rendered fit to receive the full advantages of what we are spending on secondary schools. Apart from that, the money spent on the secondary schools is
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money thrown into the sea. It is in vain that you multiply scholarships and insist upon a high standard of educational excellence, if the children who come up to be taught come up wholly unprepared and unable to take advantage of the whole of the privileges you have provided. We have heard, as we usually do in these debates, a good deal about what Germany and America have done in the cause of secondary education. Let me say that they have never been so idiotic as to suppose that they can carry out an efficient system of secondary education without making the system of elementary efficient also; they have always considered them together, as parts of a whole, and their example is one which in this respect the Government are most anxious to follow.
MR. BRYCEThe right hon. Gentleman has favoured the House with some arguments in reply to those of my right hon. friend, and he has summarised those stated earlier in the evening on this side of the House. In the first place he commented on the difference in the arguments used on this side of the House. With the exception of those of the hon. Member for North Camberwell all the arguments were perfectly consistent with one another. In the next place, the right hon. Gentleman accuses us of a desire to postpone the unification of our educational machinery to the dim and distant future. That is not our position at all. Our position is that, if you give us a good and useful scheme for a consolidating authority for all kinds of education, we are willing to accept it, but the reason why we refuse the present scheme is because we think it entirely bad and ineffective. It is because we think the area bad, and the authority bad, that unification cannot be carried out consistently.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Do you say that the area is bad?
MR. BRYCE: I do. I think the county area is bad, and we say that the objection we entertain to the Government scheme is that the result will be worse than the present system. If it were a proper unification we should accept it without hesitation. The right

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hon. Gentleman asks me why I object to the area. It is because the county area is an unsuitable area for elementary education. The county area is eminently suitable for secondary education. I will not go so far as to deny that I can conceive the county authority as being suitable to have a certain amount of general supervision over elementary as well as the secondary schools. That I think is possible, but it is not fit to do the work which this Bill proposes to throw upon it. It is not fit to do the work of administering the elementary schools. What is wanted for that purpose is a smaller area, with a smaller authority. You want an area much larger, I admit, than the area of our present rural School Boards. You want an area probably not smaller than would be formed by the union of five or six of the present average English parishes. In an area of that size you would have proper scope for administration, and you would have the elements from which to draw proper School Boards. My objection goes further. The work you propose to throw upon the county authority is enormously heavy. It is heavy not only because, as was well said by my hon. friend the Member for South Molton, it is associated with other work, but also because the county authority will be at a great distance from many of the schools in the rural parishes which it is to supervise. There is another reason also. It will throw a tremendously heavy task on the county authority. Do you remember what the condition of the counties is? We are still imperfectly supplied with railways and it takes a long time to get to the county centre. If a man sets himself to the work of administering the whole of the elementary schools in the way it ought to be conducted, it will for a year or so occupy the whole of his time, and how are you to get members of the county authority, who must come from all parts of the county, to give constant attendance in the county town in order to enable them to meet this enormous amount of work which is thrown upon them? You have only to imagine what the amount of the work is in order to realise how inadequate your scheme is. Now I come to another argument advanced by the
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right hon. Gentleman. He says that secondary education is not the most urgent thing.
MR. A. J. BALFOURdissented.
MR. BRYCE: I think the right hon. Gentleman's argument was that what was most wanted now was elementary education. I believe that with scarcely an exception all the educational experts of this country are of opinion that secondary education is the most urgent thing. I have not in the course of the discussions which have arisen on this Bill, heard that denied by any one whose opinion is entitled to the weight that belongs to an educational authority, apart from those whose religious or political proclivities lead them to take another view. Of course, the one point where in our educational system we are behind our competitors, is in the provision for secondary education, and yet the right hon. Gentleman says it is more important to provide for the voluntary schools.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I never said anything of the kind.
MR. BRYCE: I understood him, and I think most people understood him frankly to admit that this Bill is primarily and mainly intended to secure the denominational schools.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The right hon. Gentleman was not listening I suppose, and I will repeat briefly what I did say. I said that in my opinion primary and secondary education are equally national necessities, and that it is impossible to divide them, because you cannot have good secondary education without good primary education, and conversely. They must be taken together.
MR. BRYCE: I will not pursue that matter further, but I will endeavour to meet the argument he has now advanced that you cannot treat them separately. The right hon. Gentleman says you cannot isolate the two and pay no regard to elementary education. The right hon. Gentleman in his speech appealed to the Cockerton judgment. I take him on that point. Now that the Cockerton judgment has come into the field, we

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know what elementary education is, and the difficulty of the right hon. Gentleman as to schools upon the border line is immensely reduced. The right hon. Gentleman wound up by saying that Germany and America did not proceed upon a system by which elementary and secondary education are separated. No, they do not, but they do not proceed upon a system by which they are managed by authorities elected for different purposes altogether. In America, as in Scotland, the authority is chosen to deal with education and with nothing but education, and it is considered to have ample work if it deals with all forms of education. The right hon. Gentleman must please not fail to understand why we support this Amendment. I support it because I conceive the area is an unsuitable one for elementary education, unless minor areas be created immediately. We want secondary education to have a fair chance of being considered and of having proper pecuniary support given to it. If you throw it along with elementary education upon the new authority, you overload the new authority with more work than at first it is able to discharge. If you give it control of secondary education you give it the work which naturally grows out of what the counties have already done in the matter of education, and which they will be able properly to perform, because it is only the natural development of their present sphere of action. I put it to the Committee that the sensible, practical, business-like way is to go step by step, and to give each educational authority only so much work as it can do at a time. Let them make a survey of the field and devote the amount of money that may be found necessary to raise through the proper rate to secondary education; and when they have been at work for two or three years, then, if the Government think fit, let us add elementary functions also, but not the two at the same moment. It has been the good fortune of secondary education heretofore, to be free from sectarian controversy. Would it not be the best thing for secondary education to allow it to be started apart from the heat which such sectarian controversy engenders? For these reasons I feel that in the interests of educational
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progress and for the sake of the Government themselves, it would be far better for the Government to abandon the elementary part of the Bill, and turn their attention to that part of it devoted to secondary education, which is at present quite inadequate.
MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid he believed it would be quite practicable to devise a good scheme of one authority for all kinds of education. There had been a great movement in respect of this question during the last year or two, and he differed from the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen, in thinking that the decisions of the Law Courts had made it easier to divide elementary and secondary education. Those decisions, in his judgment, had made it more necessary that there should be one authority throughout the field of education, and to put the supervision of all education under one capable authority. He believed, therefore, the county authority had the capacity to supervise the schools under such a system as was proposed in the Bill.
MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid he ventured to think that the opinion of business men who had the interest of education at heart was more valuable than the opinion of so-called experts. What would be the practical working of the proposal? Did anyone suppose, in the case of secondary education, that the County Councils were going to do their work as well if the duties of supervising elementary education, as well as secondary education, were thrust upon them? Some of them did not care for education at all; and the right hon. Member for Sleaford had stated that he did not care for secondary education. Therefore, if the cause of secondary education was so important, then the practical way out of the difficulty was to divide the educational authority, to create? one authority for secondary and another for elementary education. That would be a businesslike way of dealing with the question. Would anyone who had a practical knowledge of the subject venture to get up and say that a County Council could

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deal with elementary education? The Government divided secondary and elementary education last year, and now they said that, theoretically, they ought not to be divided. But those who cared for secondary education must come to the conclusion that, at any rate at first, the best way was to make the county councils the authority for secondary education only. Though the county councils were efficient and practical bodies for the work for which they were elected, they were not necessarily the most capable bodies to deal with elementary education The Glamorganshire County Council had passed a resolution unanimously on this subject, saying that their hands were already full, and asking that they should not be entrusted with work which had been so well done by the School Boards. The real fact was they would not have any control at all. In Glamorganshire there were 340 schools; how could the County Council, with all the duties already entrusted to them, exercise any kind of control over those elementary schools? The flimsy clauses of this Bill dealing with higher education were nothing more than a sop to the people of the country to give to voluntary schools the money they required. The parents of this Bill were the bishops and those who, like the noble Lord opposite, only cared for the denominational schools. He supported the Amendment.
MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid the First Lord of the Treasury had tried to make some capital out of the differences on the Liberal side of the House with regard to this Amendment. He himself was surprised the differences were not greater than they were. He had great sympathy with the hon. Member for North Camberwell in some of the arguments he advanced. There was no desire to ignore the great needs of primary education, but it was felt that if this Bill gave the relief that some thought it would to primary education, the County Councils were not the most efficient and proper authorities to give that relief. It was necessary to press the matter of secondary education as the matter of most interest and importance to the country at the present time.
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It had been acknowledged in the past few months by hon. and right hon. Gentlemen to be our most pressing need, and that was still the opinion of the great majority of the experts of the country. In considering the Amendment before the House they had to consider not only the "one authority" ideal but what that one authority was to be. The County Council was not the most efficient authority for the control of elementary education. To promote elementary education the force of public opinion must be behind it, and that could only be obtained by bringing those interested into direct contact with the controlling authority. There was no chance whatever of the working classes of the country getting additional representation under this Bill, yet on the School Boards, as he knew perfectly well, they had done great work. This would bring also a new element into the elections of the County Councils and Borough Councils from which hitherto they had been free. It would bring in political and religious controversy. Hitherto Members had been elected to these Councils quite irrespective of their political views, but under this Bill that could be so no longer. In Norfolk there were 150 School Boards and 350 denominational schools. Now, was it possible for the central authority to manage such a number of schools as that spread over such an area? There were many difficulties in the way of the County Councils administering elementary education, matters of detail, and he thought it would be infinitely better to postpone this Clause. When they asked why this work should be devolved on the County Councils, and the School Boards be extinguished, they were told it was because of the great work they had done in technical education. But he declined to recognise the validity of the argument drawn from the succesful work of the County Council in connection with technical education, seeing that there was no comparison whatever between technical, including secondary, education, and the detailed work involved in primary education. The Bill would do nothing for secondary education. When last year's Bill was introduced, nothing was said of the pressing necessity of first dealing with primary education. That

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necessity had only arisen owing to the agitation of the Church party. There would be plenty of work for the new authority in remedying the deficiencies of our secondary education. To charge it with the care of both primary and secondary education at once would be detrimental to both.
SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid that a great variety of opinions had been expressed on the other side of the House as to what the educational authority should be. Until right hon. and hon. Gentleman had made up their own minds they might be less critical of the proposal of the Government. He objected to the assumption that elementary and secondary education were absolutely separate and distinct. But if they could not be separated, and if in dealing with elementary education the voluntary schools must be dealt with, why should the Government be reproached with raising the religious question? Whether the Government had proposed the best method of solving this religious difficulty might be open to question; but this was a matter to be dealt with later. As to the allegation that the purpose of the Bill was the destruction of School Boards, it must be remembered that by the Cockerton judgment the School Boards had already been shorn of those powers which they arrogated to themselves, and which made their work most stimulating. Therefore the disappearance of the School Boards did not now involve the consequences which would have been involved eighteen months ago. They were debarred from doing work which the Cockerton judgment decided that they should not have undertaken. But this work must be done. Some authority must supervise this borderland of education. How was continuity between the lower and higher grades of education to be obtained if elementary and secondary education were put in separate departments? The Amendment proceeded on an entirely wrong assumption.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid that the Committee had derived some advantage from the speeches of the
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two hon. Gentleman on the other side. The hon. Member for East Somerset declared that the arrangements of the Government with regard to secondary education were not satisfactory, and the hon. Member for Oxford University admitted that every time the voluntary schools were touched the religious difficulty was raised. That was one of the great evils with which they had to deal, but his hon. friend opposite went further and said he was not satisfied that the method of dealing with the religious difficulty in this Bill was the best possible way of dealing with it, and added that there were several other ways. The Opposition has often been asked to state what their alternatives were, but he would like to know from so high an authority as the hon. Member what were the several methods of dealing with the religious difficulty that were at present locked in his bosom. If the hon. Member was able to suggest methods less mischievous than that proposed in the Bill, the Committee would have made some progress. Hon. Members opposite, instead of observing a silence which did not give consent, ought to state frankly what they thought would be improvements in the Bill, and not leave it to the Government merely to put their foot down and say, "We will have the Bill as it is, it is for you to take it or leave it." Hon Members, however held their tongues, and said nothing of their opinions on the matter. A Bill of such national importance could not be treated in that spirit. Party exigencies in the House must be satisfied by such treatment, but the mind of the country would not be convinced that the question was being fairly dealt with. If the matter was fairly considered, with a view to meeting the difficulties involved, there were many gentlemen on the other side of the House who could make valuable suggestions. The vital clause of the Bill was before the Committee, and on it could be raised all the questions involved in the measure, and the methods by which the Government proposed to invest the County and Borough Councils with power to deal with education, secondary and primary. The fundamental proposition put forward by those for whom he spoke was that if

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primary education were dealt with in the Bill, various difficulties connected with that branch of the subject would practically foreclose the chances of secondary education. Prom communications he had had, he knew that several people, who were great authorities, especially in rural districts, had altogether given up the notion of dealing with secondary education. The hon. Member for Oxford University had pointed out that the School Boards before the Cockerton judgment were doing something for secondary or semi-secondary education, but now they could not do it. But it would have been very easy for the Government to repeal the Cockerton judgment, and so have aided secondary education. The present scheme attempted something very different. Its object might not have been to get rid of School Boards, but that was what it would do. What were those School Boards doing, and why were they doing it? He would quote the authority of the Vice-President of the Board of Education—
"Two-fifths of the children of school age are to be found in the Metropolis and in the large county boroughs having their own School Boards. In those the Act of 1870 has worked in the most satisfactory manner, the members of the Boards being generally elected from those who are sincerely desirous of promoting good education, and who take a lively interest in municipal government, and they have established thoroughly efficient schools."
That was the ad hoc authority, and the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to it—
"The effect of the school system in the boroughs has been greatly to raise the level of elementary education.… School Boards were in this particular exceeding the function for which they were designed, but in the absence of any more regular mode of providing the people with that secondary education which the necessities of the time so urgently demand, their proceedings are undoubtedly highly approved by the people for whom they act, and any attempt to curtail by legislation the operations of the School Boards in this direction without providing some better alternative method by which the want of the public can be supplied would be unpopular."
Then as to the County Council authority. He did not speak of the Borough Councils, because they might exercise some control. But as for the County Councils, how in the world was
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it possible for the County Council in such counties as Devon, Glamorgan, and the West Riding of Yorkshire to effect any control or any supervision over the 14,000 voluntary schools? It was impossible in areas of that description. And yet the hon. Member for the Oxford University admitted, indeed asserted, that the voluntary schools were so imperfect in their action, and so inferior in their quality, that it was absolutely necessary that some assistance should be given to them to bring them up to a decent standard. That was the statement also of the Leader of the House, though he seemed to have forgotten it. His hon. friend had said that the principal object was secondary education. It was notorious that what the country expected was that the Government were going to supply, first of all, a good and efficient system of secondary education. But the First Lord said—" I do not agree; the principal object is the treatment of the voluntary schools."
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I did not say so.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: The right hon. Gentleman had better not contradict me so discourteously. In my opinion he did say so.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Really, if I am misrepresented after I have explained it, I think the discourtesy is on the other side. I have explained what I did say.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid all he could say was that that was the impression left on his mind of what the right hon. Gentleman said, and he believed that that was the meaning conveyed to the Committee. What was the ground on which the ordinary primary schools were brought into the Bill? It was in order that they might get the rates and substitute them for voluntary subscriptions to the voluntary schools. The Government might profess what they liked, but everybody knew that that was the object, and everybody saw it throughout the whole scheme of the Bill. They were putting on the County Council a task which, as the hon. Member for the Oxford University had said, necessarily

1175
raised the religious difficulty, because they were using public money for sectarian purposes, and for that reason he should vote for the Amendment.
MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid the Amendment involved the whole future of secondary education in this country. If the Bill were kept in its present form, with elementary education within its scope, there was not the slightest doubt that it would result in secondary education being placed in the background for many years to come. If the Government had introduced a Bill dealing only with secondary education none could have complained. The matter had been considered more than once, and the Government might fairly regard themselves as having a mandate on that question. But who could say that the Government had a mandate to deal with the question of elementary education? There was only one question before the country at the last general election, and that was the conduct of the war. He ventured to say that in bringing forward these far-reaching proposals with regard to elementary education, and, on the day peace was declared in South Africa, commencing a war on Nonconformists, the Government were taking a course which would not be sanctioned by a majority of the people in the country. He really trembled for the education authorities existing in Wales. For eight or ten years he had sat on one of those authorities. Hitherto they had worked together with the greatest cordiality, and the system of intermediate education had been carried on in the most harmonious manner. So far as the authority of which he was a member was concerned, they had not had a single division, upon any party or religious question, during the whole of that period. If the provisions of this Bill were carried into effect, the result would be that the paradise which they had lived in for the last ten years would be destroyed. He appealed to the Government, in the interests of secondary education, to accept the Amendment of his hon. friend. They had not heard a single word from the First Lord of the Treasury or the Vice-President of the Council to indicate that any important Amendment would be accepted when they came to deal with Part III. Was the right hon. Gentleman
1176
prepared to promise any alteration in Part III? If not, they would have to take the Bill as it stood, and oppose to the utmost of their power the insertion of Part III, for its adoption would mean the destruction of what had hitherto been a successful system of secondary education.
MR. HELMEsaid he was glad the silence of Ministerial Members had been broken, as it suggested conspiracy on the part of the Government to use its power in order to force through the Bill, as was done, with out the alteration of a single word, upon a former occasion, and it was their duty to protest against such tactics. This Amendment proposed to divide secondary from elementary education for the moment, and in supporting this the Opposition were not unprepared to deal with the great question of elementary education; and he would remind the Committee that at the present time there was a national interest of pressing importance before it which demanded that secondary education should have the first place in our legislative programme. The country had been waiting anxiously ever since the report of the Royal Com mission on Secondary Education for the Bill under which secondary education would be adequately treated. It was necessary that they should now have a national system, universal throughout the country, developed; but one great objection to this Bill was that the secondary system was optional, and that was the most serious blot on this part of the measure. They must have a system which was not permissive, and which applied to those counties where public opinion was not equal to the development of a system worthy of the great object which they all had at heart. Many localities were more interested in the question of pounds, shillings, and pence. But education was a matter of great concern, and where such considerations contributed to educational inefficiency, the power of Parliament should be exercised in order to insist upon the development of the intellect of the children, in order that they might climb the educational ladder, which was absolutely necessary to give this country the advantage of cultivating its brain power. It was necessary that this House should speak in no unmeasured terms——
THE CHAIRMAN: The time to speak in those terms will be when we reach the second clause, and it does not seem to be relevant at present.
MR. HELME: No, Sir; I intended to allude to the permissive words in the second clause—"The local education authority may supply," and "for that purpose may apply, and may spend such further sums as they think fit," and to the limit of a twopenny rate, which would be altogether inefficient and unworthy of a great measure. Continuing, the hon. Member said he should like to know something more about the financial proposals which were behind this Bill. He supported the Amendment in favour of dividing the two subjects dealt with in the Bill, and taking the secondary education part first. In Lancashire they had striven to do all they could to develop technical education, and now this Bill proposed to destroy those Technical Education Committees which had done so much to provide the technological instruction which was necessary for those engaged in manufactures. Therefore they asked that the elementary education part of the Bill should be put second. This measure raised once more the religious difficulty, and abolished the great School Boards which had been the great engines of progressive education, and which had brought about a revolution in education. Naturally there was a strong feeling that it was not desirable to abolish boards which had had so much experience and done such good work. Seeing the enormous difficulties which this Bill was going to introduce, he contended that it would be in the best interests of this country to divide the Bill into two parts, and turn their immediate attention to secondary education. So they must strive, and, although they might be crushed by the numerical majority of the Government, they must remember that the commercial interests of the country were of far greater importance than mere Votes, and these could not be disregarded.
MR. ROBSONsaid that the clause which this Amendment dealt with enacted that the local council should be the education authority.
1178
One was astonished at the phraseology of the clause. No one in this Committee and no one on the Ministerial Bench had the slightest intention of making the County Council the education authority. On the contrary all that the County Council or the local authority was entitled to do was to take a very limited and modified part in the consitution of the education authority. That was the point of view from which one had to criticise this clause. No one desired to make the County Council the real education authority. If the Bill made the education authority out of the local council, many hon. Members might accept that proposal, provided that it was accompanied by some provision for increasing the personnel of the County Council, and effecting some change in the character of those who constituted the council. To increase the duties of a County Council, as now constituted, to this extent would be to reduce that council to a condition resembling that of the House of Commons with a congestion of business not pleasant to contemplate. The Government therefore proposed to give the County Council authority to take part in the formation of an educational authority. The new authority was to be a nominated authority.
THE CHAIRMAN: I do not know whether the hon. Member has looked at the Amendment, but if he has I wish to point out that he has not yet approached it in his speech. The only question is whether these new authorities shall deal with secondary as well as elementary education.
MR. ROBSONsaid this clause would throw upon the Councils the duty of dealing with elementary education, and his remarks were directed to the proposed increase of their duties. That was what he objected to. The Government had devised a scheme whereby permission should be given to the County Councils to delegate duties to the Education Committee, and it was with that Education Committee the House had to deal in this clause. The Amendment suggested that the Education Committee should not have power to deal with elementary education. He did

1179
not regard the Education Committee as an authority to which this House would willingly entrust elementary education. It was not an elective Committee. It was nominated, and it was not nominated exclusively by an elected body. It was nominated partly by an elected body, and partly by other bodies of which the Government had given no definite information. The proposal in the Bill was to take the power from the elected School Board, and put it into the hands of those who were not elected but nominated by sectarian denominations. The sects would not only have control over their own schools, but the Bill imported the control of the sects into the national schools. It meant that elementary education was to be taken away from popular control, so far as it was exercised by and through the School Board, and put under the control of a committee which would partly, and apparently very largely, be nominated by purely sectarian associations, whether the local authority liked it or not. This was not merely a question of local government. They were fighting for something more than that. They were demanding that elementary education should be kept as it was under popular control,
that was to say, that the elementary education now administered in the board schools should be kept exclusively under public control. The Government in resisting that demand desired to place it largely and mainly under sectarian control. [Ministerial cries of "No."] Hon. Members opposite said "No," but the more the Bill was examined it would be seen that the real meaning of the clause was that a sectarian system which had prevailed over the bulk of the schools should now prevail over them all, and that every school should now come mainly under sectarian control. That was the main reason why he supported the Amendment.
MR. GODDARDrose to continue the debate.
MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
(7.18.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 251; Noes, 162. (Division List No. 190.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Campbell, Rt Hn J. A. (Glasgow

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Carlile, William Walter

Dyke, Rt Hon Sir William Hart

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cautley, Henry Strother

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

Faber, George Denison (York)

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Arrol, Sir William

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Mauc'r

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Finch, George H.

Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

Fisher, William Hayes

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Chapman, Edward

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Banbury, Frederick George

Charrington, Spencer

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Bartley, George C. T.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Forster, Henry William

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ

Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S W

Beresford, Lord Chas. William

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Galloway, William Johnson

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Gardner, Ernest

Bignold, Arthur

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Garfit, William

Bigwood, James

Cranborne, Viscount

Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

Bond, Edward

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin&Nairn)

Bousfield, William Robert

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

Davenport, William Bromley-

Gore, Hn G R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

Brassey, Albert

Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John

Denny, Colonel

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Graham, Henry Robert

Brymer, William Ernest

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Bullard, Sir Harry

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS. Edm'nds

Butcher, John George

Duke, Henry Edward

Gretton, John

Greville, Hon. Ronald

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

M 'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinbur'h, W

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

Gunter, Sir Robert

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Hall, Edward Marshall

Majendie, James A. H.

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Seton-Karr, Henry

Hambro, Charles Eric

Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Mid'sx

Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd 'derry)

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyneside

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

Spear, John Ward

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

Mitchell, William

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.)

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Helder, Augustus

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Moon, Edward Robert pacy

Stock, James Henry

Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Hogg, Lindsay

Morgan, David J (W'lthamstow

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Hope, J. F Sheffield, Brightside

Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Morrell, George Herbert

Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Thornton, Percy M.

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Valentia, Viscount

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Myers, William Henry

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

Walker, Col. William Hall

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Webb, Colonel William George

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E (Taunton

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

Parker, Gilbert

Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts

Knowles, Lees

Parkes, Ebenezer

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley

Whiteley, H. (Ashton un. Lyne

Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth)

Percy, Earl

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Lawson, John Grant

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(B'rm

Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H

Pretyman, Ernest George

Wills, Sir Frederick

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Purvis, Robert

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

Randles, John S.

Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Rankin, Sir James

Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath)

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Ratcliff, R. F.

Wortley, Rt Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Rattigan, Sir William Henry

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Remnant, James Farquharson

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Younger, William

Lowe, Francis William

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Sir William Walrond and

Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G Ellison

Round, James

Mr. Anstruther.

Macdona, John Cumming

Rutherford, John

Maconochie, A. W.

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

Crombie, John William

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Broadhurst, Henry

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Delany, William

Ambrose, Robert

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Asher, Alexander

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Dillon, John

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Caine, William Sproston

Donelan, Captain A.

Asquith, Rt Hon Herbert Henry

Caldwell, James

Duncan, J. Hastings

Atherley-Jones, L.

Cameron, Robert

Dunn, Sir William

Austin, Sir John

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Ellis, John Edward

Banes, Major George Edward

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Emmott, Alfred

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Carew, James Laurence

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Causton, Richard Knight

Evans Sir Francis H (Maidstone

Bell, Richard

Cawley, Frederick

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Black, Alexander William

Channing, Francis Allston

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Blake, Edward

Craig, Robert Hunter

Fenwick, Charles

Boland, John

Crean, Eugene

Ffrench, Peter

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Cremer, William Randal

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

1182

1183

Flynn, James Christopher

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

M'Kean, John

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Fuller, J. M. F.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Gilhooly, James

Mansfield, Horace, Rendall

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Soares, Ernest J.

Grant, Corrie

Markham, Arthur Basil

Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (N'thants

Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

Mather, William

Stevenson, Francis S.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Mooney, John J.

Strachey, Sir Edward

Hammond, John

Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

Sullivan, Donal

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Moulton, John Fletcher

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Tennant, Harold John

Harmsworth, R. Leicester

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Harwood, George

Norman, Henry

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Helme, Norval Watson

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

Thomas, J. A (Glam'rg'n, Gower

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

O'Brien, Kendal, Tip'erary, Mid

Tomkinson, James

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Toulmin, George

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Wallace, Robert

Jones, William Carnarvonshire

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

Joyce, Michael

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Kitson, Sir James

O'Malley, William

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Labouchere, Henry

O'Mara, James

Weir, James Galloway

Lambert, George

Paulton, James Mellor

White, George (Norfolk)

Langley, Batty

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Leamy, Edmund

Perks, Robert William

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Power, Patrick Joseph

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Leng, Sir John

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth).

Levy, Maurice

Redmond, William (Clare)

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Lewis, John Herbert

Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

Lloyd-George, David

Rickett, J. Compton

Young, Samuel

Lundon, W.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Yoxall, James Henry

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Robson, William Snowdon

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Runciman, Walter

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Russell, T. W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Schwann, Charles E.

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

M'Crae, George

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Mr. William M'Arthur.

M'Govern, T.

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

(7.33.) Question put accordingly, "That the words 'the purposes of this Act' stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided: Ayes, 299; Noes, 114. (Division List No. 191.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

Bond, Edward

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Bousfield, William Robert

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Ambrose, Robert

Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn)

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Brassey, Albert

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Brotherton, Edward Allen

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Arrol, Sir William

Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

Cranborne, Viscount

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Brymer, William Ernest

Crean, Eugene

Austin, Sir John

Bullard, Sir Harry

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Butcher, John George

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Gl'sg'w

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Carew, James Laurence

Davenport, William Bromley-

Banbury, Frederick George

Carlile, William Walter

Davies, Sir Horatio D.(Chath'm

Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Delany, William

Bartley, George C. T.

Cautley, Henry Strother

Denny, Colonel

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Cavendish, V. C. W (D'rbyshire

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Dillon, John

Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Donelan, Captain A.

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Bignold, Arthur

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. (Birm.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Bigwood, James

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.

Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore

Blake, Edward

Chamberlayne, T. (S'thampton

Duke, Henry Edward

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Chapman, Edward

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Boland, John

Charrington, Spencer

Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Elliott, Hon. A Ralph Douglas

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Pretyman, Ernest George

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.

Pryce Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Faber, George Denison (York)

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Purvis, Robert

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Randles, John S.

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manr.

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Rankin, Sir James

Ffrench, Peter

Long, Col. Charles W. (Ev'sham

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Finch, George H.

Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Brist'l, S.

Ratcliff, R. F.

Finlay, Si Robert Bannatyne

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Rattigan, Sir William Henry

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Lowe, Francis William

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Fisher, William Hayes

Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Remnant, James Farquharson

Fletcher, Rt Hon. Sir Henry

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Flynn, James Christopher

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'uth

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Foster, Henry William

Lundon, W.

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Uni.

Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S W

Macartney, Rt Hn W G Ellison

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Galloway, William Johnson

Macdona, John Cumming

Round, James

Gardner, Ernest

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Rutherford, John

Garfit, William

Macnamara, Dr Thomas J.

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Gibbs, Hon A G H (City of Lond.

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Sadler, Col Samuel Alexander

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

Maconochie, A. W.

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse

Gilhooly, James

MacVeagh Jeremiah

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

Godson, Sir Augustus Fred'rick

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin&Nairn

M'Govern, T.

Seton-Karr, Henry

Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'ml'ts

M'Hugh, Patrick A.

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Gore, Hn G R C rsmby-(Salop

M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh W

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

M'Kean, John

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Majendie, James A. H.

Smith, H C (N'th'mb. Tyneside)

Graham, Henry Robert

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H E (Wigt'n

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Greene Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds

Maxwell, W. J. H Dumfriessh.

Spear, John Ward

Gretton, John

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Middlemore, Hn. Throgmorton

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Gunter, Sir Robert

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Hall, Edward Marshall

Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

Stock, James Henry

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Mitchell, William

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Hambro, Charles Eric

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Mid'x

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Sullivan, Donal

Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nd'ry

Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Hammond, John

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Talbot, Rt Hn J G (Oxford Univ.

Hanbury, Rt. Hon Robert Wm.

Mooney, John J.

Thornton, Percy M.

Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Morgan, David J (W'lth'mstow

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Morgan, Hn. Fred (Monm'thsh.

Valentia, Viscount

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

Morrell, George Herbert

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.

Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptf'rd

Walker, Col William Hall

Helder, Augustus

Murray, Rt Hn A Gr'h'm (Bute)

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Webb, Colonel William George

Hoare, Sir Samuel

Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton

Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E

Myers, William Henry

Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts

Hogg, Lindsay

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Bri'htside

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

Whiteley, H (Ashtonund. Lyne

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Howard, J. (Midd. Tottenham

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

Williams, Rt Hn J Powell (Birm

Hudson, George Bickersteth

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

Wills, Sir Frederick

Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Wilson Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks)

Johnston, William (Belfast)

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Wodehouse, Rt. E. R. (Bath)

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

Worsley-Taylor, Henry Wilson

Joyce, Michael

O'Malley, William

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir John H.

O'Mara, James

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W (Salop

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Knowles, Lees

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Young, Samuel

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Parker, Gilbert

Younger, William

Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth

Parkes, Ebenezer

Yoxall, James Henry

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

Lawson, John Grant

Percy, Earl

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Leamy, Edmund

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Sir William Walrond and

Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Mr. Anstruther.

1186

1187

NOES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Fuller, J. M. F.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Runciman, Walter

Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

Grant, Corrie

Russell, T. W.

Asber, Alexander

Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

Schwann, Charles E.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Gordon, Sir W. Brampton

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Asquith, Rt Hon Herbert Henry

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Atherley-Jones, L.

Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Banes, Major George Edward

Harmsworth, R. (Leicester)

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Soames, Arthur Wellesley

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Helme, Norval Watson

Soares, Ernest J.

Bell, Richard

Hemphill, Rt. Hon Charles H.

Spencer, Rt Hn C R (Northants

Black, Alexander William

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

Stevenson, Francis S.

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Horniman, Frederick John

Strachey, Sir Edward

Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Broadhurst, Henry

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

Tennant, Harold John

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

Kitson, Sir James

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Labouchere, Henry

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Lambert, George

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

Caine, William Sproston

Langley, Batty

Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

Caldwell, James

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Tomkinson, James

Cameron, Robert

Leng, Sir John

Toulmin, George

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Levy, Maurice

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Causton, Richard Knight

Lewis, John Herbert

Wallace, Robert

Channing, Francis Allston

Lloyd-George, David

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)

Craig, Robert Hunter

M'Crae, George

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Cremer, William Randal

M'Kenna, Reginald

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Crombie, John William

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Weir, James Galloway

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

White, George (Norfolk)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Markham, Arthur Basil

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Duncan, J. Hastings

Mather, William

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Dunn, Sir William

Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Ellis, John Edward

Moulton, John Fletcher

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Emmott, Alfred

Norman, Henry

Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

Evans, Sir Francis H (M'idstone

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

Paulton, James Mellor

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Fenwick, Charles

Perks, Robert William

Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Reed, Sir Edw James (Cardiff)

Mr. William M'Arthur.

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Rickett, J. Compton

It being after half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman loft the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
  Clause 1:—
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEmoved an Amendment providing that for the purposes of the Act School Boards in boroughs, and in
  1188
  urban districts with a population of 10,000, and for other areas the County Councils and County Borough Councils should be the local education authority. He said he was not insistent on adhering to the words of the Amendment, but he put it forward as an attempt to retain for the country the benefits of the School Board system—which had done so good and great a work for the last thirty years, in the education of children. He wished the system preserved, therefore, even if its operations were limited to large urban areas. It had worked well and it had secured the confidence of the voters as was proved by the large number of votes cast at the last elections, and the pride evinced in our Board Schools. Regular attendance and efficiency had been secured, and the most business-like educational experts had devoted their efforts to the work at great personal sacrifice; but if this Bill were passed unaltered their services would no longer be available to

  1189
  the country. Nearly all these men condemned the Government proposals. Personally he did not claim to be an educational expert, but he had been a manager for twenty years of ten voluntary schools, be had served ten years on a Borough Council, and three years on a town School Board, fourteen years on a County Council, and twelve years on a Technical Education Committee. He claimed some right therefore to criticise the Government proposals from a practical point of view. The Durham County Council was not prepared to to take up elementary education until it had digested secondary education. There were in all 302 boroughs; 193 possessed School Boards, and those which did not might, of course, either establish them or allow their Borough Councils to manage the schools. Universal tribute had been paid from ministers down to inspectors to the work of the School Boards. A former Vice-President of the Committee of the Council, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Dartford, said—
  "Hon. Members seemed to regard the Bill as a serious inroad and attack on School Boards. He said advisedly, as an educationalist first, and a party man afterwards, that if he thought such injury would be inflicted he would not vote for the Second Reading."
  Again, Sir John Gorst, who now represented the Board of Education in the House of Commons, had declared—
  "Two-fifths of the children of school age are to be found in the Metropolis, and in the large county boroughs, having their own School Boards, in these, the Act of 1870 has worked in a most satisfactory manner; the Members of the Boards have been generally elected from those who are sincerely desirous of promoting good education, and who lake a lively interest in Municipal Government, and they have established thoroughly efficient schools. … The effect of the School Board system in the boroughs has been greatly to raise the level of elementary education."
  Bearing in mind these statements he ventured to assert that to put a system so approved into the melting pot, would damage us commercially and otherwise. The one authority idea was not really promoted by the Bill. Thus the Walls-end and Wellington Quay School Board, economically managed education under one board at present, whereas under the Bill, the management would be divided between two authorities. Hebburn, Jarrow and Monkton had one board, but the Bill would give the control of the education in these places to three authorities.
  1190
  He did hope that the Government would make some concession so that this good work might be preserved to the country. Sir Joshua Fitch, in a very able article in the Nineteenth Century on the composition of School Boards had pointed out that membership of these bodies demanded special qualification, and it was desirable that those who joined them should be unhampered by other duties. If his Amendment were accepted, he believed it would simplify the task which the Government had undertaken, and it certainly would simplify the educational system of the country. In the case of the 100 boroughs which had no School Boards, if the Government thought it advisable in the event of accepting his Amendment to provide that the Borough Councils should undertake the work of education in those places he would accept that. We had a large number of authorities in this country, and some of them might very well be amalgamated. He believed there were 29,000 of one kind and another, at the present moment attacking the English ratepayers. With regard to taxation, the present system might very well continue. The municipal authorities might still levy the borough rate on the precept of the School Board. One great objection to the proposal of the Government was this, that the boroughs of the country found it very difficult now to secure the best men to carry on municipal work. It involved a great demand upon time, and as a fact the Borough Councils were not composed of the men most calculated to give the necessary impulse to educational efficiency. If they put more work upon those Borough Councils he was afraid that they would become more and more inefficient. He could not imagine what was the great objection to the School Board system, unless it was that to a certain extent it had been in competition with denominational schools and had proved more efficient, thereby creating jealousy on the part of the supporters of the denominational schools. But under the provisions of this Bill denominationalists were to receive rate support, where they never had it in the past, and consequently that ought to remove the objection of their supporters to the School Board schools. It was sometimes said that the School Boards had proved very expensive. No

  1191
  doubt the burden had been very heavy in those rural districts where agricultural depression was more felt, but he denied that, taking the School Boards as a whole, and especially in the case of the boroughs, there had been any great waste of public money. It was almost impossible to earmark the result of the expenditure, but the fact that the School Boards had retained the confidence of the ratepayers showed that they had given satisfaction to the public. It might be said that the School Board was not a suitable authority to carry on the higher branches of education; that they had their hands full with elementary education, and that the Government had already entrusted the higher education to municipal authorities, who had done good work in organising it. In reply to that, he would say he was quite satisfied that even if the right hon. Gentleman left School Boards where they now were with regard to the control of elementary education, it would be very easy, in relation to secondary education, to devise a system whereby a joint-committee, representative of School Board Councils and Technical Education Committees, might take control. They could so dovetail the system that it would work harmoniously from top to bottom. They could bring the local authorities into communication with each other, and difficulties as to area boundaries could easily be overcome. It might be said that the Government proposal would do away with the expense of School Board elections, but such a saving could equally well be effected by having all local elections in a town held on one day. He feared the Government scheme would entail the appointment of a large staff of inspectors, while with the abolition of the School Board system they would cease to enjoy the advantage of having women on the educational authority, who were better fitted to deal with questions especially affecting female teachers and girl pupils. He moved the Amendment, animated by a sincere love of education, and with the conviction that a, system like that of the School Board, which had been found to work well, should be adhered to, and not be cast aside for the doubtful experiment of creating a new authority. He believed
  1192
  that if the Government adhered to their proposal in the Bill, and abolished the School Boards, a time would come when their policy would be reversed and they would have to secure a system of more direct control by the ratepayers.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 1, line 7, after the word 'Act,' to insert the words "School Boards in boroughs, and in urban districts with a population of ten thousand, and for other areas."—(Mr. Joseph A. Pease.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted "
  THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION (Sir JOHN GORST,)said the Committee would be perfectly well aware that this Amendment proposed to change the whole scope and principle of the Bill, and it was therefore quite impossible that it could be accepted. He did not want to oppose it on merely technical grounds, but he must point out that it would establish a very complicated system. He-could quite understand the observation-made by the hon. Member as to the unwillingness of the county of Durham to undertake elementary education, because in the large boroughs and urban districts they already had School Boards. This Amendment would except all those from the operation of the Bill, but he would point out that, although borough areas were very generally coterminous with the School Board districts, urban districts were not always the units of School Board districts, and a very considerable rearrangement of boundaries would be required. The point of the hon. Gentleman was that, in the large boroughs and non-county boroughs, the School Boards, which had done excellent work, should be preserved. The hon. Gentleman had quoted a sentence of his (Sir John Gorst's) about the work of the School Boards. Not one single syllable of that did he desire to withdraw. He had been held up to the indignation of the people as the enemy of the School Boards. He was nothing of the kind. Ever since he had held office as the Vice-President of the Council he had always borne testimony to the good work done in most of the large towns by the School Boards.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Not in London.
  SIR JOHN GORST: Yes, even in London. He had suffered martyrdom because he had borne testimony to the extremely excellent religious instruction given in the London Board Schools. He had never, in speaking of even the London School Board, uttered anything against the day schools except such criticism—which he supposed they could bear—as that their schools were too large. Then why could not the School Boards be preserved? Because in all the large towns there are two great educational authorities whose powers overlap, and this led to a waste of public money. To secure efficiency in the management of the schools in large towns, all the powers must be vested in either the School Boards or the Municipal Councils. He had said before, and he repeated again tonight that, as far as the interests of education are concerned, in places like Manchester, Bradford, and Liverpool, it does not matter a pin whether the management of the schools is vested in the Town Council or in the School Board. Why had the Government preferred the former? It was entirely upon the principle that it was most essential for the strength and power of local government that there should be one authority responsible for the rates of the town. The most certain way to weaken local government was to have two independent authorities, each levying rates for different purposes. This fact was recognised in the United States, where, despite the diversity of such systems in the various Stages, the final power of the purse was, in almost every case, in the hands of the municipal or county authority. He appealed to his right hon. friend the Member for South Aberdeen to bear him out on this point.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he could safely say that, wherever the rating power was not vested in the education authority, it was the practice of the rating authority to impose all such rates as the education authority required.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid that that might be practice, but the rating authority alone had the power of rating. He challenged the right hon. Gentleman to produce a case in which the education
  1194
  authority had the power to lay an unlimited rate, without reference to the City or the County Council.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he believed that there were such cases, but it was not easy, on the spur of the moment, to answer as to the law in forty-five States.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid that that might be, but he had tried to find such a case and had failed to do so. Apparently the right hon. Gentleman, who was a much better authority than he was on the American constitution, did not know of a case either. It had been said that the Bill was going to destroy such School Boards, and all the work that they had done. But the School Boards were not permanent bodies; they were elected every three years by the ratepayers. The Municipal Council would only take the place of a newly elected School Board. He did not think that in a place like Bradford, for instance, there was likely to be any interruption of the continuity of the work. The Municipal Council there would, he conceived, be likely to appoint some of its members on the educational committee, and to avail itself also, of the services of the members of the existing School Board. He had not the slightest doubt that in the great towns the work of such School Boards would be carried on under the Town Council in exactly the same way as it had been carried on before, and that the difficulties and dangers and disasters prophesied by hon. Members opposite would never occur. It was most essential in the interests of education that some method should be found, by which the good work in the direction of higher education, established by School Boards in time past, should be saved and he felt sure that good work would not be thrown away, but would be continued by the Town Councils under the powers given by this Bill. The Government, however, would be ready to accept any suggestions for the improvement of the Bill which would ensure that object.
  MR. MATHERsaid that the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, the Vice-President, must have produced a very disappointing

  1195
  impression on those Members on that side of the House who had, for weeks past, been endeavouring to assist the Government, by alternative proposals, to make the Bill an effective measure of national education. They had been taunted on that side of the House that they had not supported the Government in their proposals for advancing the education of the country. He repudiated that suggestion. The only educational standard existing in this country in regard to elementary education was that erected by the School Boards in the last 30 years. He would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman and hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House, if they regarded themselves as the only source of light and patriotism or the only channel through which intelligence could How? Did not the Opposition represent anything? He granted that they were rather, for the moment, a conglomeration of atoms, but on this question of education they were bound together by a great principle. They earnestly desired that education should no longer be trifled with, and there was no Amendment that could be proposed which would make so much for efficiency in education and simplicity of administration, as that proposed by his hon. friend. The right hon. Gentleman the Vice President had argued that there could not be two education authorities in one town, and that as the Municipal Council had authority in one direction already, it must be taken as the one authority. But all the authority the municipality had at present was to carry on technical education under the Technical Instruction Act. But what did that amount to? It amounted to this, that with the whiskey money and a penny rate they might build one large technical school, the management of which was handed over to a Committee. He maintained that no municipal authority could attempt the task of superintending elementary education without entirely recasting its existing constitution. He therefore urged that the municipal authorities should be allowed to devote themselves to secondary education, for some time at least, and that the School Boards should continue their work of devoting themselves to elementary education. Then the
  1196
  voluntary schools would come under these conditions which bon. Gentlemen opposite considered desirable, and which would give them support out of the rates. If the right hon. Gentleman opposite made this concession, he would help the Opposition to do good work in the construction of this Bill, instead of working for its destruction. The question of control and efficiency did not in the least interfere with the suggestion of his hon. friend. They asked that these long-established bodies, which had great experience, and which admirably performed the work entrusted to them, should continue until such time as Parliament saw fit to alter their position and status. He considered that they had a right to press that view on the Government with all the earnestness which it was in their power to exert. He did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman intended to take up a non possumus position from first to last in connection with the Bill. [Mr. A. J. BALFOUR dissented.] He was delighted to hear that indication from the right hon. Gentleman. If the right hon. Gentleman would make the concession now asked, he would open the door to the Opposition to do good work in the construction of the Bill, instead of working for its destruction. He would, therefore, urge on the right hon. Gentleman the necessity of accepting the Amendment, or some modification of it. There was a further point. They wanted co-ordination—one system, one authority, no overlapping, and perfect unity of administration. That ideal could not be realised, in his opinion, perfectly, unless by the retention of the School Boards. A statutory obligation that they and the secondary authorities should at once draw up schemes would enable co-ordination to be perfect. It would mean co-ordination, not only in the sense of there being no overlapping, but would create a mutual interest, each authority doing its very best. One anthority would be devoted to one stage of education, the other to another, and they would be dove-tailed together in perfect harmony. Only last winter in Manchester there were gathered together in one room in the Town Hall members of the Owens' College, members of the technical schools, now the great pride

  1197
  of Manchester, and members of the School Board, who were all united in perfect accord in a free and voluntary arrangement. All the projects in the Bill with regard to unifying the two grades of education were based, not on experience, but on theory. If the Amendment were accepted, and if the new authorities to be set up by the Bill failed in the work of elementary education, then the School Boards could be extended. More than that, the acceptance of the Amendment would cause the Bill to pass through the House of Commons as representing a compromise without any necessity for an Autumn session, and it would give immense satisfaction to the working classes, who, after all, are the chief beneficiaries of national education. He spoke with earnestness on the matter, because his convictions were deep; and he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to accept the Amendment, or, if not to reserve the matter for the consideration of the Cabinet, and not compel the Opposition to conclude that the Bill was never intended to consult their feelings, but simply to satisfy one particular party in this House. He himself did not accept that view. He believed that earnest minds had been engaged on the Bill, and he therefore hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would give the appeal he now made to him full consideration.
  MR. GRAYsaid he was not quite sure whether the hon. Member was aware of it or not, but a great portion of his argument was entirely against the Amendment which he rose to support. He had been for some considerable time emphasising the advantage which would accrue to the community, if School Boards in cities like Manchester were left to work in harmony with Technical Committees. They could meet in the same room, organise schemes, and carry on education, the School Board being the authority for one branch of education and the Technical Committee the authority for the other. Did the hon. Gentleman realise what the Amendment was? If he proposed that in boroughs—there was no limitation, it might be a county borough or the smallest of boroughs—
  MR. MATHERsaid that his hon. friend had endeavoured to show to the right hon Gentleman who was responsible for the Bill that he merely wished a concession in the direction of the Amendment.
  MR. GRAYsaid that the hon. Gentleman supported an Amendment, but wished it to be amended.
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid he was prepared to take any concession from the Government which would retain School Boards in the large towns for the purposes of elementary education.
  MR. GRAYsaid that, considering the days which had elapsed since the Second Reading, they might have had an Amendment which they could discuss, and not an Amendment from which hon. Members opposite ran away. That was not dealing with a serious question in a business like way, and was not treating the House of Commons with proper respect. It was the sort of thing which might be expected if the Second Reading had been taken yesterday, and, in the circumstances, the Committee was entitled to deal with the Amendment as it stood on the paper. The Amendment proposed that boroughs, large and small, should have School Boards as the authority for elementary education; but the hon. Member for the Rossondale division declared that he for one, had no desire to extend the School Board system. He would wish to draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that, neither during the debate on the Second Reading nor the debate in Committee, had any hon. Member opposite ever attempted to deal seriously with the argument put forward again and again which desired to secure one single authority that would spend the money and levy the rate. Never had that principle been dealt with seriously during the whole course of the discussions on the Bill. Every conceivable argument was brought forward with reference to the excellent work of the School Boards, the necessity for continuing them, the desirability of direct election, and so on, but hon. Members refrained from dealing seriously with the question of the rating authority being also the spending authority. The Vice President said that it was in the interest of the local Government that there should be one authority, but he might

  1199
  have said further that it would be in the interests of education also. In his opinion nothing had done more to retard the progress of education than the constant cavilling of the rating authority against the expenditure of the School Board. At every borough council election the borough councillors declared that they were not responsible for the rate; that it was the spendthrift School Board, which might have done its work economically, but instead, squandered the rate-payer's money. If the rating authority was the spending authority it would not grumble at its own work and would not retard the progress of education. Members of School Boards on the other hand declared, at the election times, that they were hampered by the control of the rating authority. He was not concerned to inquire what was the position in the United States, he was concerned at the position at home. He recollected that in 1894 or 1895, in one of the largest towns in the country, the borough council proposed to disallow the School Board rate for the year and that proposal was only rejected by one vote. That such a state of things should be possible was neither in the interest of good Government or of education, and he should suggest to hon. Gentlemen who advocated the continued existence of School Boards, that they should address themselves seriously to the question of good Government and educational progress, neither of which could, in his opinion, be secured until the rating authority was also the spending authority. As one more interested in the educational side rather than in the rating side of the question, he had come to the definite conclusion that the Borough Councils and the County Councils would do the work as efficiently as ever the School Boards did it in the past. He was amused to hear the suggestion that there was no other standard of efficiency than that set up by the School Boards. That showed a lamentable lack of knowledge of the great work accomplished by the Technical Committees of the County Councils. He admitted that the Technical Committees did not seek election every three years, and had no need to advertise their good work. There was no better education authority I throughout the whole country than the
  1200
  Technical Committee of the London County Council, and no educational work had been done in Manchester better than that which had been done by the Technical Committee of the Manchester County Council.
  MR. MATHERsaid he had served on both bodies for many years, and made his statement from his own knowledge and experience.
  MR. GRAYsaid that he was quite prepared to admit that part of the success of the Technical Education Committee was due to the hon. Gentleman's efforts. The hon. Gentleman devoted time and trouble to educational matters, and his record in Manchester would stand far higher for the good work he did in that district than for his work in supporting an Amendment such as that now before the Committee. He hoped the hon. Gentleman would not consider him presumptuous in saying that no one recognised more fully and frankly than he did, the good work accomplished by the right hon. Gentleman, though he could not accept the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman that they could only have efficiency by continuing the Manchester School Board and the Manchester Technical Committee as two separate authorities. The hon. Gentleman himself would not desire that the School Boards, truncated as they now were by recent decisions, should continue. He would desire their older powers conferred upon them.
  MR. MATHERsaid that all that would be taken from the School Boards would remain with the secondary authority.
  MR. GRAYasked if he were to understand that it was seriously advanced by the hon. Gentleman and his friends, that in future the School Board should continue as the authority for elementary education given to children below the age of fifteen, which would be limited to the three R's. He never believed that anyone would think of suggesting that the School Boards, cut down as they now were by law, should be continued; and he hoped that no one, who looked at the question from the point of view of education rather than from the party point of view, would ever vote for two authorities, one for elementary education and the other for secondary education.

  1201
  That was the proposal he was fighting against; whatever might be the phraseology it always remained, and he ventured to assert, knowing something of the work of popular education, that they would get neither educational control nor progress until they had a single authority exercising jurisdiction in a wide area and controlling all forms of education, from kindergarten up to the level of the universities. That was the urgent popular necessity of the hour. Before the Government introduced their Bill it was possible to get hon. Gentlemen opposite to agree to it. He had a lively recollection of what took place in a committee room upstairs, in which hon. Gentlemen, who now stigmatised the Bill as everything bad, endorsed the principle of a single authority for all forms of education, although they now supported an Amendment that the School Boards I should continue side by side with the secondary authorities. That was before the element of partisan polities was imported. For years past, on public platforms up and down the country, he pleaded for one authority, and he saw that plea endorsed by Nonconformists, Anglicans, Catholics, Liberals and Tories, regardless of creed or party politics. But the moment the Government put it into a Bill, it was treated from a partisan aspect. The opposition to the Bill was not educational; it was party and sectarian, and nothing but that. According to the Amendment, every borough should be allowed to retain its school education, but he maintained that with a population of less than 10,000 it would be impossible to make suitable provision for secondary education. One of the main arguments of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen against the Bill was that there ought to be a wide area for secondary education, and a narrow area for elementary education; but the Amendment ran directly counter to that. He thought the best thing to be done was to let hon. Gentlemen opposite settle their differences among themselves, and when they had secured some approach to agreement, to put forward an Amendment from which they would be prepared not to run away, to which they could give undivided support, and which might be worthy of the serious criticism of the Committee.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid that whatever might be the precise terms of the Amendment, no doubt the hon. Member who moved it directed himself to the case of the great boroughs, and his hon. friend the Member for the Rossendale division dealt exclusively with that case. He desired to make an appeal to the First Lord of the Treasury on behalf of the great county boroughs. He confessed he saw no means of securing an effective ad hoc authority in county areas, but he wished to direct attention to the case of the great county boroughs. In 1896, the First Lord of the Treasury on the Second Beading of the Bill of that year, said that the Bill would not apply against the wishes of the local authorities themselves. He ventured to make that appeal now. Why should that particular form of government be thrust on the county boroughs? Local option was the plea of the Vice President many times in connection with the question, and local option was the plea of the First Lord of the Treasury on the Second Beading of the Bill of 1896, and he now pleaded for local option in regard to the great county boroughs. The First Lord of the Treasury in 1896 wrote to a correspondent, stating that the aim of the Bill of that year was not to destroy the School Board system in the great county boroughs. Then the right hon. Gentleman wont on to say that it was desirable to have one authority, but he added that although that important reform was rendered possible by the Bill, it was not obligatory, and that it was not intended to force a change on reluctant local authorities. He could show the right hon. Gentleman many reluctant authorities, who desired the privilege of local option, and the right hon. Gentleman had the support of the Vice President, which was not always possible in educational matters. The great School Boards did not want the happy despatch, and did not desire to see their duties extinguished. The Vice President might say that they were interested parties, but what about the municipal councillors. They did not want the change; they thought they had got enough to do as it was, and that if the work of education were added to their present burden, they would not be able to carry out the work effectively. Already the Cardiff City Council had passed a resolution against devolving on them the

  1203
  work of education, and the Gloucester City Council had passed a similar resolution. The Manchester City Council also passed a series of resolutions, which, if carried, would modify the Bill to an extent which would make it unrecognisable. The article of the Vice President in the North American Review had already been quoted, but when it was written the right hon. Gentleman was smarting under the withdrawal of the Bill of 1890, and he took his revenge by writing an article of a progressive character. He would not quote from it further, because perhaps the right hon. Gentleman was in a temper at the time he wrote it, but he thought he was entitled to quote what the right hon. Gentleman said at Bradford on January 11th, 1899. He said it would be a most unfortunate thing if the work of School Boards in the great cities—higher grade, science, and evening continuation schools—were in any way to be interfered with. Why did the right hon. Gentleman now countenance that unfortunate proposal? He claimed the Vice President's vote for the continuance of an ad hoc authority in the great county boroughs. Then again the right hon. Gentleman said that there was much to be said in favour of making the education authority for all purposes such School Boards as now existed in many of the large cities. To-night he said it did not matter a pin whether the Council or the School Board was to be the authority for education, but if it did not matter a pin, and if much were to be said for making the School Boards the education authority, why not make them that authority. He thought the First Lord of the Treasury misunderstood him on the Second Reading. He did not ask that the School Boards should be left truncated, with only purely elementary education to deal with. He was with the Vice President, and would make the School Boards the authority for all grades of education. The First Lord of the Treasury replied that that could not be done because the municipal authorities had already been at work on education for so many years. They had been at work for thirteen years on a very narrow branch of education which they got quite adventitiously. The First Lord of the Treasury would remember that in 1888 it was proposed to extinguish public
  1204
  house licences. That proposal was withdrawn, and the money had to be allocated to some specific purpose or it would have dropped into the Sinking Fund. There was a strong endeavour to secure it for technical education, and it was sent down to the local authorities with a strong hint that they ought to spend it on technical education if they wished its continuance. He was not pleading on behalf of the authorities, who had done that work admirably, but he was pleading on behalf of men who were engaged in educational work for thirty-two years, and were elected to discharge that work. Notwithstanding the gibes of the Vice-President the School Boards had done magnificent work for the poorer classes of the country. He himself was almost ashamed that he was a School Board member, because when he mentioned it, it always caused a derisive laugh from the Treasury bench. [HON. MEMBERS: No, no!] Then he must have misunderstood the facial expression of many Members opposite when School Boards were referred to. As one elected directly for educational purposes he claimed that the School Boards had blundered on, as the Vice President was only too ready to assure them, until they had obtained a certain amount of educational experience. That experience was an asset which it was now proposed to throw ruthlessly away. If the Council of any county borough said that it had enough to do already, and that it thought that education was of sufficient importance to call for the direct intervention of a School Board, why not let it have a School Board? From his experience of School Boards they had always treated voluntary schools quite as handsomely as they were treated by the Town Councils. Indeed, they had treated them more handsomely, because there were on the School Boards many members of the Church of England, who would not be likely to turn a deaf ear to the voluntary schools. He was convinced that the School Board for London would treat the voluntary schools much better than would the London County Council, because there was a considerable number of clergymen on the School Board. With the large majority of School Boards in the hands of moderates and dominated largely by clergymen of the Church of England, the voluntary schools would be much better off than if they were under local councils, which in many instances

  1205

  would give them very short shrift indeed. He believed it was physically impossible for the great county boroughs to take over the work of education. He would give a few instances. Bristol had 59,000 elementary school children, 221 elementary school departments, 1,640 teachers and an expenditure by the School Board alone of £150,000. That would be increased to £250,000 or £300,000 if the voluntary schools were taken over and the present work of the Bristol Town Council would be at least doubled. Hon. Gentlemen opposite often charged his hon. friends with megalomania, but he should like to know who were ready the megalomaniacs. Shefield had 66,000 elementary school children, 226 schools departments, 1,700 teachers, and the School Board spent roughly £200,000 a year. Leeds had 78,000 elementary school children, 270 school departments, 2,000 school teachers, and the School Board spent £265,000 a year. An addition of from 50 per cent. to 75 per cent. would represent the total expenditure if the voluntary schools were added. Birmingham had 86,586 elementary school children, 267 school departments, 2,100 teachers and the School Board expended £250,000 a year. Manchester had 98,348 elementary school children, 343 elementary school departments, 2,560 teachers and the School Board expended £240,000. Liverpool had 116,000 elementary school children, 420 school departments, 3,000 teachers and the School Board spent £252,000 a year. The right hon. Gentleman thought that they could safely superadd to the existing municipal work all the great work of elementary education, but it was bound to break clown. He should like to make an appeal on behalf of the great county boroughs. If the City Council and the School Board desired continuance of the ad hoc body for the purpose of education, the Government should agree to give them that option. Under the Bill, if Canterbury were taken out, the county of Kent would have seventeen separate authorities for a smaller number of children than there were in Liverpool. If seventeen authorities were required for a certain number of children in Kent, could one authority be safely trusted with a greater number in Liverpool. The Amendment covered other matters with which he did not associate himself, but he asked the First Lord of the Treasury to permit the local option as to the constitution of the local
  1206
  authority, which was provided in the Bill of 1896, to be extended at least to the great county boroughs. He was convinced that if they endeavoured to add the work of education to municipal work it would be bound to fail, because it would be physically impossible to carry it out. He thought that the Government would soften the way for the passage of a great many other features of the Bill if they would give the great county boroughs an assurance that the School Boards should be allowed to continue as the education authority if the localities themselves desired it.
  MR. HUTTONsaid he quite agreed with the arguments of his hon. friend who had just spoken, but the case which he had made out as to the inability of the Councils of county boroughs to carry on elementary education might just as strongly be made out against some of the country districts. He particularly referred to his own county. The County Council of the West Biding of Yorkshire had considered the Bill, and had come to the conclusion that it would be impossible for them to carry it out, and they passed a resolution to that effect. The County Council of the West Biding had had more experience with regard to educational matters than any other County Council, and it was not for lack of interest in education that that Resolution was passed. It was simply because the County Council came to the conclusion that the matter was beyond their power. The hon. Member opposite attempted to speak slightingly of this proposal, but he thought the hon. Member would find that the question of the abolition of the School Boards was not quite such a trivial question as he imagined. The acceptance of the Amendment would not lead to any conclusion, and would not make any difference in the control of the county authority or the Education Department. It would, however, make a great deal of difference to the efficiency of the schools, and more than that, it would make a great deal of difference in the interest which people displayed in the work of the School Board. The comparison was hardly a fair one. The Town and County Councils would have nothing to do with the ad-ministration of the Act; that would be

  1207
  handed over to a Committee. He emphasised the principle of the School Board, because he desired an opportunity to be given to the people to establish the schools in which they were interested, and it was entirely against the interests of education to remove a body which had done this work, and this work alone, and to put the work into the hands of a body which could not have the direct interest and responsibility which the School Boards had had. The progress of education had been due simply to this principle of having the direct control of the hands of the people, and to place the work in the hands, not of the County Council, but of a Committee, as proposed by the Bill, would do more to damage the efficiency and progress of education than any proposal which had passed through the House of Commons. In the rough-and-tumble of a School Board election many elements of suspicion and supposed injustice were entirely removed, and the Government would do well, before they abolished the School Boards, to consider the fact that where those Boards existed, and had established schools, they had always secured the majority of the people as their friends. The Boards had the confidence of the people, and in taking any steps which would result in their abolition the Government were taking a course which would not only injure education, but do a great deal to damage the interest taken by the people in the control and management of their own affairs.
  MR. DILLONstated that the Irish Party would oppose the Amendment because it was directly against the general principle of the measure, to which they had given their support. For his own part, however, he did so with the greatest diffidence as to the ultimate result. In the interests of the Roman Catholic schools he could not concur without grave misgiving in the attitude of the heads of his church in this country when they were parting so lightly from the principle of the cumulative vote. The cumulative vote by which Catholics had secured representation on all the great School Boards of the country, was introduced into the Bill of 1870 for the purpose of giving a voice to small minorities. In parting from that principle they had not, in his judgment, thoroughly appreciated the consequences
  1208
  which would ensue. The Roman Catholics had always dissociated themselves from any general movement of hostility to the School Boards or to the progress of education. There was nothing inconsistent between doing justice to the denominational, and particularly the Roman Catholic schools and educational progress; and he believed the School Boards—judging from the action of the Manchester and Liverpool School Boards with respect to the Roman Catholic schools—would have treated the denominational schools generously in the matter of rate-aid if their hands had not been tied. The Manchester School Board had recently met the Catholics of that city in the most generous spirit in regard to the evening-continuation schools, and paid over to them out of the rates some thousands of pounds although the schools were completely under denominational control. The Amendment afforded a striking illustration of the great injuries to the cause of education which arose from the tone and temper in which this Bill had been faced from the beginning, and from the failure of leading men on both sides of the controversy to attempt to find some modus vivendi by which the Bill might be considered from the point of view solely of educational efficiency, the religious difficulty being eliminated. From the point of view of educational efficiency, he believed the Amendment was a good one and if the religious difficulty could be eliminated and the power of continued existence for the denominational schools secured the proposal would be generally acceptable. But the Amendment would not be considered from the point of view of educational efficiency. The majority who would defeat in the division lobbies entertained the belief that it was necessary, in the interest of the continued existence of the denominational schools that it should be rejected. If hon. Members could assemble around a table and come to some understanding with respect to the levelling up of the denominational schools, it would be possible to consider the Bill from the point of view of education alone. But, as that had not been done he felt coerced to vote against the Amendment because it struck at the vital principle of the Bill, which must be carried if the denominational schools were not to be crushed out of existence. Once more he pleaded for

  1209
  some understanding by which justice might be done to the denominational schools and the children who, on con scientious principles, were bound to use those schools, and at the same time, the interests of education preserved.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The hon. Member for East Mayo has made, not for the first time, an appeal to those who sit on that side of the House to assist him in preserving denominational schools. The hon. Member must be perfectly well aware by this time that any such appeal is made to deaf ears. The only difficulty, absolutely the only difficulty, in my view, which prevents a common agreement being come to between the two sides of the House as to the merits of this Bill, as to the advantages of the authority we propose to institute, and as to the general advantages of education which this Bill proposes, is the difficulty which arises with regard to those schools which are described as denominational schools. Such appeals as those of the bon. Gentleman are necessarily, from the nature of the case, entirely vain, and I do not think he need expend his eloquence, which has been great on this subject, in endeavouring to soften the hearts of those who are opposed to him. If I turn to the Amendment itself, I need hardly tell the Committee that I have no quarrel with the School Boards of this country. [Opposition laughter.] Well, my observations have been many on educational questions on this Bill and on previous Bills, and I think they will bear out my statement. Some of the School Boards, no doubt, are from various causes inefficient; others are extremely efficient. But what does the Amendment ask us to do? It asks us to divide the country educationally into two entirely different spheres, governed by entirely different principles. It asks us to abolish School Boards in all the counties, in all the small boroughs, and to preserve School Boards in all the borough and urban districts above a certain limit of population. That is to ask us to have two entirely different systems of education, based upon different principles, and we have a right to inquire what are the motives which demand this fissure, this great chasm, to be dug, between two halves of our national educational system.
  1210
  The first reason I have noticed is that mentioned by my hon. friend opposite, the Member for Rossendale, and also by other Members, that if we would accept this Amendment, there would be a general agreement on both sides of the House as to the rest of the Bill, or, at all events, that all heated controversy would be removed. That is the olive branch we are asked to accept. Is there the slightest grounds for expecting any such happy results from the acceptance of this Amendment, or any Amendment like it? The essential basis of all the bitter opposition to this Bill lies in the fact that we propose under it to give assistance to the voluntary schools out of the rates. [Opposition cries of "Without control."] The subject of control will come on later, and it has nothing whatever to do with this Amendment. This Amendment does not touch the question of giving assistance to voluntary schools out of the rates. In the first place, it leaves the counties exactly as the Bill proposes to leave them. In every county area under the Bill, if the Amendment were carried, voluntary schools would be supported out of the rates. Are there the elements of that eirenicon which has been promised by several speakers in the debate in any such system? But even confining our attention to those boroughs which would be affected by this Bill, is there in those boroughs any evidence of a peaceful settlement of this denominational question? As I understand the Amendment, it would require the School Board to support voluntary schools in the same way that the county authorities support them. What element of an eirenicon is there in that? What promise is there of peace over this wretched denominational question in a proposal like that? If it is a matter of conscience with Nonconformists, as we have been told it is, though I find a difficulty in believing it, to reject any Bill which supports denominational teaching out of the rates, how is that cured by an Amendment which leaves the rates liable for the support of voluntary schools, as this Amendment would do, in every county district under a county authority, and in every urban district under 20,000 under a borough

  1211
  authority? I think I may put that argument on one side.
  What is the second argument? That the councils of the boroughs are incapable of supporting this strain of additional work. That may be a good or a bad argument, but it is an argument which applies to county authorities quite as much as to borough authorities. If it is a reason for supporting this Amendment, it is a reason for rejecting the whole Bill. But on the merits of the Amendment itself, may I point out that at least two important boroughs had actually applied for Parliamentary powers to exercise the powers conferred by this Bill before this Bill came into existence. The boroughs of Nottingham and Warrington asked for these very powers over elementary education before this question came up as a political question; and are the town councils of those boroughs incapable of estimating the labours which they wished to undertake? I could quote the case of boroughs who have desired to accept the powers since the Bill was introduced; but the case of these two boroughs is much stronger. I am told that there is no difficulty in producing harmony between the School Board and the borough council; but that is not the Amendment that we are considering. It is an Amendment which would not leave in the possession of the Town Councils any powers which could come into rivalry with those of the School Boards. The hon. Member argues in favour of a plan which would leave the Town Councils of Manchester or Liverpool in possession of all authority in regard to technical and secondary education and leave the School Boards in possession of primary education. I will not argue that point now, but I do not think that is a practical plan; and, moreover, it is not the plan of the Amendment which is to take away all the powers of the borough councils and give them to the School Boards. Is that practical politics? Here you have these great municipalities entrusted with great powers and responsibilities. They have exercised the powers admirably, and have borne the responsibilities with great credit. Yet it is proposed that we should take from such towns
  1212
  as Manchester, Leeds, Liverpool, Bristol, and all other great cities the powers they have exercised under the Act of 1889 and hand them over to the School Boards. Before anyone suggests such a transference of power from a body which exists, and must continue to exist, whatever you may do, he should consider whether there is in the School Board after all any peculiar virtue by reason of its mode of election or otherwise which would render it the proper recipient of the privileges and powers now possessed by the town council. After all, although the system of minority representation has some merits, I do not think that the great majority of this House would think it the proper way of electing a great representative body. Are we really to transfer from a body elected by the ordinary direct representation, with which we are familiar in this House, powers which they now possess and exercise admirably to another body elected not by ordinary election, but by the highly elaborate and not always successful methods of election which prevail in regard to our existing educational authority? Everybody knows that the man who is elected to the School Board is elected on a ticket. He is not necessarily elected for educational merit. It is all a question of elaborate pre-arrangement. Can it be that, after all our experience, the hon. Member prefers this system of minority representation to the ordinary principle of electing a municipal authority? Under these circumstances, what is to be said of the proposal before us? It does not get over the denominational difficulty. It does not conduce to educational progress and it, does not solve the educational problem. It does not leave the status quo in the great boroughs. What it does is to take away from the Town Councils in the great boroughs—Town Councils elected by the ordinary method of election which we all approve, powers which they themselves have invariably exercised with advantage to the community—and to hand over all the educational powers of the Town Councils and the existing powers of the School Boards, plus the obligation of supporting voluntary schools, to a body which you may call a School Board if you will, but which is not the original

  1213
  School Board founded by the Act of 1870, or anything like it—which has not its powers, which has not its duties, which has not its responsibilities, but which has nothing in common with that School Board but that imperfect and, I think, pernicious method of election which, I believe, everybody would desire to abolish, even those who most wish that the School Board system should be maintained. I venture to say that an Amendment against which all that can be said is not an Amendment which the House ought to accept.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the right hon. Gentleman stated that he found it very difficult to believe in the sincerity of intelligent Nonconformists——
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I did not say that. I never doubted that sincerity.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEthought he was in the recollection of the House——
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I never suggested want of sincerity on the part of Nonconformists.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEasked to be allowed to finish his sentence.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I beg the hon. Member's pardon.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that, according to his recollection, the right hon. Gentleman said that it was difficult to believe that the Nonconformists had conscientious objections in the matter to which he was referring; and what he wanted to say was that, when the next appeal came to be made to the country, he would find that that difficulty would be removed. It would be much easier for him to believe it after that. In fact, there would be a good many electoral foundations of his new belief supplied for him on that occasion. When the right hon. Gentleman gave his reasons for doing away with the School Board, he said Parliament had entrusted corporate bodies with great powers, and they having exercised those Powers well, why should Parliament take them away? For the moment he
  1214
  thought the right hon. Gentleman was arguing in favour of the continuation of School Boards, for Parliament had created bodies for specific educational purposes. They had discharged those functions well. They had been entrusted with much more important functions than town councils. They had exercised them for a longer period. Why should Parliament now be asked to deprive School Boards of these powers when, according to everybody, they had discharged them so well? The right hon. Gentleman said he had no quarrel with School Boards. When life was destroyed without provocation, the law had a certain word for it. That was what was done in this case. The right hon. Gentleman had no quarrel with their work, and yet he was going to abolish them. He did not think the question of subsidising voluntary schools was necessarily involved in this Amendment, which would not destroy the principle of the Bill if it were adopted. The Amendment only proposed that in boroughs of a certain size, instead of the urban council, the School Board should do the work. In this case the Roman Catholics would have a much better chance of being represented upon a School Board than upon the Town Council, and that surely ought to be a reason for his hon. friend the Member for East Mayo supporting this Amendment. If they did not carry this Amendment, they would not have a single Roman Catholic represented on Town Councils, which would be the paymasters of the Roman Catholic schools, whilst if they carried this proposal, the Roman Catholic priest would be on the School Board. He really thought that the Member for East Mayo had carried his zeal for denominational schools rather too far in this respect. The only difference he could see was that both the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for East Mayo wanted to destroy the School Boards. Never was an important proposal made with such little foundation as that. It was a great misfortune that there could not be an agreement between Members on both sides of the House who simply desired educational efficiency. He did not think there would be any difficulty if it were merely a question of

  1215
  meeting the wishes of those who desired to train their children in their own faith. In Holland the Catholics and Protestants had come to an agreement whereby they obtained the denominational teaching they required without a denominational school system. In Holland they had a public school system under public control, and if his hon. friend sincerely desired that the children of his own faith should get the best possible education from their own selected teachers, he ought not to buttress up a system of this kind but support a system which existed in Holland.
  The hon. Member for North-West Ham objected to this Amendment because he was in favour of the rating authority and the spending authority being identical; and he was also opposed to it because he was in favour of one authority. He (Mr. Lloyd-George) was under the impression that this Bill carried out both these principles. Before the hon. Member undertook to lecture his hon. friend the Member for Rossendale, he might really have read the Bill. If he had read only the very clause which they were now discussing, he would have seen that his criticisms were irrelevant. There were three authorities provided for in this clause, and as for the rating authority being the same, that might be a good principle, but it was one which this Bill had nothing whatever to do with. He would call the County Council the rating authority. The spending authority was the Statutory Committee, the precepts of which the County Council was bound to honour. That Statutory Committee was exactly in the same position as the School Board. If hon. Members would refer to Clause 6 they would see that it was provided that—
  "The local education authority shall, throughout their area, have the powers and duties of a School Board and School Attendance Committee under the elementary educational acts.'
  The hon. Member opposite said, that when the ratepayers complained at elections for the councils that the rates were high, the candidates replied, "Yes, it is the fault of the spendthrift School Board, for which we are not responsible
  1216
  at all." Under this Bill the same thing could be said by candidates at the County Council election, for they would be able to say that they were not responsible for the expenditure of the local education authority.
  MR. GRAYpointed out that the Education Committee was created by the Council and formed under a scheme initiated by the Council, and necessarily could be removed by it. At the present time the School Boards were totally independent of the Council and were of equal standing and therefore the suggestion of the hon. Member was absurd.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he must again complain that the hon. Member had not read the Bill, which contained nothing that would make the local education authority responsible to the County Council.
  MR. GRAY: Oh, oh!
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that at any rate School Boards were responsible to the same body of ratepayers, but this new authority would not be responsible directly to the ratepayers. The hon. Member for North-West Ham wanted the rating authority and the spending authority to be identical, and he quoted the case of Preston. But who were the spending authorities in Preston? Every school in Preston was a voluntary school, and the spending authority would be, not the County Council, but the managers of these schools.
  MR. GRAY: No, no!
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEasked who they were responsible to. The hon. Member opposite had talked about the rating and the spending authority being the same, but in every crucial part of this Bill they would find the rating and the spending authority absolutely different. If that was the object which the hon. Member for North-West Ham had in view, then he ought to support an Amendment of this kind.
  MR. GRAYsaid the managers of the voluntary schools were not spending

  1217
  authorities under this Bill. It was quite possible that even the salaries of the teachers would be paid direct.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The hon. Member is entitled to make a personal explanation, but he is not entitled to enter into a long argument.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the hon, Member had not impaired his argument in the least. If the Bill were carried, the spending authority in Preston would not be the rating authority. The hon. Member opposed an Amendment which would continue the existence of the School Boards that had done efficient work, while in the case of the managers of voluntary schools, who in hundreds of cases had not managed schools well, he would not only continue their authority, but would give them further power and subsidies. The hon. Member for North-West Ham was an educational expert who appealed to them to throw aside partisanship in this way. That was a fair illustration of the impartiality with which the hon. Member had examined this Bill. The First Lord of the Treasury said something with regard to the personnel of School Boards, and he asserted that the members of School Boards were not elected as a rule because they were educational experts, Here the right hon. Gentleman did not agree with the Vice President of the Council, although there was not so much to be surprised at in that. The First Lord of the Treasury said they were selected, not because they knew anything of education, but for other reasons.
  SIR JOHN GORST: When?
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: He said it in 1896. That was some time ago, and a good deal had happened since then, this Bill being amongst the things which had happened. The Vice President said then that the Act of 1870 had worked in the most satisfactory manner—that was with reference to the School Board in the boroughs—and that the members of the Boards had been generally elected from those who were sincerely desirous of promoting education, and that they had established thoroughly efficient schools. Was the right hon. Gentleman still of the same opinion?
  SIR JOHN GORST: No.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he was glad to see this unwonted exhibition of loyalty on the part of the right hon. Gentleman, but he was rather curious to know what had changed his opinion.
  SIR JOHN GORST: I have learnt a good deal since 1896.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEasked whether the right hon. Gentleman had discovered that any of the School Boards did their work less efficiently. If he had, would he point to a single Report of a Government official to show that they were not doing their work efficiently?
  SIR JOHN GORST: The hon. Member read out a statement of mine to the effect that they were elected for educational purposes. I was innocent in 1896, but, naturally, since then I have learnt a good deal more about School Board elections.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the right hon. Gentleman wished them to believe that he was innocent in 1896. Well, at any rate, he had not soiled his conscience with a Bill of this sort then. The right hon. Gentleman was really no advocate of these principles in 1896. He had a totally different scheme, and he had never given it up. He was not a wholehearted supporter of the present scheme. The Vice President said the School Boards did their work efficiently, and at the same time he supported a Bill to continue in existence and to buttress up a system which he himself admitted was a great failure.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that he wished to state the reasons why he and some of his friends felt bound to support this Amendment. He admitted that the Amendment was not drawn in the form in which he should have liked best to vote for it, but it raised a question which was very material, and they must take this opportunity of expressing their opinion on that question. When his hon. friend was moving the Amendment he stated that he would be perfectly willing to accept any Amendment which would make it apply only to elementary education and would not make the

  1219
  School Boards authorities for secondary education. The fallacy of the speech of the First Lord of the Treasury was the idea that the only difference between the two sides of the House related to the aid to denominational schools. Surely he must know that the objections to the Bill covered a very large number of other points, such as the provisions about authorities, the extinction of the School Boards, and the conditions attaching to the aid given to the voluntary schools. If the Government had spared the School Boards, they would have very much facilitated the progress of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said he objected to the School Boards because they were elected by the cumulative vote, but the objections to that system of voting had come in the past from the Opposition, and its defence from the other side. If they had known that the right hon. Gentleman was opposed to the cumulative vote, he thought they would long ago have taken his powerful aid in getting rid of it. The right hon. Gentleman said he was no enemy of School Boards, but in a speech at St. Helen's in 1895 he spoke of the people there being "threatened" with a School Board, and expressed a hope that they would not get one. He added that if they returned to power an Education Minister with the opinions of Mr. Acland they would surely see one district after another forced, whether they liked it or not, under the educational dominion of School Boards, with all the attendant costs. The right hon. Gentleman went on to oppose School Boards for imposing costs on the district, not knowing that he
  was going to bring in a Bill which would impose all the cost on districts which he then deprecated. That language could hardly be described as friendly to School Boards. The only reason which the hon. Gentleman, the Vice President, gave why the powers of School Boards should be transferred to the Borough Councils was that there should be only one rating authority in a borough. What, then, became of the rating powers under the poor law, and why had it been left to the year 1902 to discover that it was improper to have two rating bodies? The School Boards were required to go every three years to the electors for a fresh mandate, and if they had rated them too highly the electors could have expressed their disapproval. But they had never done so, and if the right hon. Gentleman said the powers of the School Boards must be transferred because they had made the rates too high, he must mean that the expenditure on education must be cut down, and that he was sure was not the wish of the House. He had only further to express his regret that the Government had met this Amendment in so unconciliatory a spirit and to assure the House that it was from no feeling against the other provisions of the Bill, but solely because they regarded School Boards as popular and efficient bodies, that they now proposed this Amendment.
  (11.48.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 117; Noes, 291. (Division List No. 192.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc, Stroud

  Channing, Francis Allsten

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Asher, Alexander

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Grant, Corrie

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cremer, William Randal

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Bell, Richard

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  Black, Alexander William

  Edwards, Frank

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Elibank, Master of

  Helme, Nerval Watson

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Ellis, John Edward

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Emmott, Alfred

  Holland, William Henry

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Caine, William Sproston

  Fenwick, Charles

  Kitson, Sir James

  Caldwell, James

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Labouchere, Henry

  Cameron, Robert

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Langley, Batty

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Leng, Sir John

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Toulmin, George

  Levy, Maurice

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Ure, Alexander

  Lough, Thomas

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wallace, Robert

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall

  Runciman, Walter

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  M'Crae, George

  Russell, T. W.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Mather, William

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R (Northants

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Norman, Henry

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Partington, Oswald

  Tennant, Harold John

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Perks, Robert William

  Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.

  Price, Robert John

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Rea, Russell

  Thomas, J A (Gl'morgan, Gower

  Mr. Joseph A. Pease and

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Mr. Lambert.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Tomkinson, James

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Gordon, Hon J E (Elgin & Nairn

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r H'ml'ts

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Gore, Hn G R C Ormsby- (Salop

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Allhusen, Augustus Hen. Eden

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Ambrose, Robert

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Green, Walford D (Wednesbury

  Arrol, Sir William

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bain bridge

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Crean, Eugene

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Gretton, John

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Hain, Edward

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks

  Delany, William

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Beresford, Lord Chas. William

  Denny, Colonel

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Bignold, Arthur

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Ld G (Midd'x

  Bigwood, James

  Dillon, John

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry

  Bill, Charles

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Hammond, John

  Blake, Edward

  Dorington, Sir John Edward

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Douglas Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Boland, John

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Bond, Edward

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Heath, James (Staffords, N. W.

  Brassey, Albert

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Henderson, Alexander

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Brookfieid, Colonel Montagu

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Ffrench, Peter

  Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Bull, William James

  Finch, George H.

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Butcher, John George

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Hoult, Joseph

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Firbank Joseph Thomas

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Carew, James Lawrence

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Carlile, William Walter

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Forster, Henry William

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S W

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Joyce, Michael

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

  Garfit, William

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Chapman, Edward

  Gibbs, Hn. Vicary (St. Albans

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Charrington, Spencer

  Gilhooly, James

  Keswick, William

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Kimber, Henry

  1222

  1223

  Knowles, Lees

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Lawrence, Joseph (Monmouth

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Lawson, John Grant

  Myers, William Henry

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Leamy, Edmund

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Stsand)

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Spear, John Ward

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N S

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'rary Mid

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Loder, General Walter Erskine

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Stock, James Henry

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale

  O'Malley, William

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Sullivan, Donal

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Parker, Gilbert

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

  Lundon, W.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Peel, Hn Wm Robert Wellesley

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Macartney, Rt Hn W G Ellison

  Penn, John

  Tufuell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Valentia, Viscount

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Vincent, Col Sir C E H (Sheffield

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Webb, Colonel William George

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Welby, Lt-Col A C E (Taunton

  M'Govern, T.

  Purvis, Robert

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts

  M'Hugh, Patrick A.

  Randles, John S.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

  Rankin, Sir James

  Whiteley, H (Ashtonund. Lyne

  M'Kean, John

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Manners Lord Cecil

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Renwick, George

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks)

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E R. (Bath

  Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Milvain, Thomas

  Robinson, Brooke

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Younger, William

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Round, James

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamsto'

  Rutherford, John

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Morgan, Hn Fred (Monm'thsh.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Sir William Walrond and

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Sasscon, Sir Edward Albert

  It being after midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report progress; to sit again tomorrow.

POST OFFICE SITES (EXPENSES).
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of all sums payable by the Postmaster General under any Act of the present session to enable His Majesty's Postmaster General to acquire lands in the County of London for the public service, and of ail expenses incurred in carrying into effect
1224
the provisions of such Act.—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
Resolution to be reported tomorrow.

IMMORAL TRAFFIC (SCOTLAND) BILL.
Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time tomorrow.
CORONERS' INQUESTS (RAILWAY FATALITIES) BILL.
Order for Second Reading read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.

OLD AGE PENSIONS (No. 2) BILL.
Order for Second Heading read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.
Adjourned at ten minutes after Twelve o'clock.

EARL OF SHEFFIELD.
Petition of Henry North Holroyd Earl of Sheffield, in the Peerage of Ireland, claiming a right to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland; read, and referred to the Lord Chancellor to consider and report thereupon to the House.

SAT FIRST.
The Lord Kensington sat first in Parliament after the death of his brother.
The Lord Sefton (E. Sefton) sat first in Parliament after the death of his brother.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  HALIFAX CORPORATION BILL,
    METROPOLITAN DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL.
    Examiner's Certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Tuesday the 10th instant.
  WEST AND SOUTH LONDON JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill: The Orders made on the 20th of January and the 20th of March last, discharged: Ordered, That the Bill be not further proceeded with.
  BIRKENHEAD CORPORATION BILL.
  The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The Order made on the 13th of May last, discharged, and Bill committed.
  MEXBOROUGH AND SWINDON TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
  BRISTOL CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  The King's consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
  CENTRAL LONDON RAILWAY (NEW LINES) BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
  SCARBOROUGH TRAMWAYS BILL.
  Read 2a, and committed.
  IMPERIAL INSTITUTE BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a; Amendments made; Bill passed, and sent to the Commons.
  HASTINGS HARBOUR DISTRICT RAILWAY (EXTENSION OF TIME) BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

  COLWYN BAY AND COLWYN URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL,
  HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL,
  KINGSCOURT, KEADY, AND ARMAGH RAILWAY BILL,
  LEAMINGTON CORPORATION BILL,
  LONDON AND INDIA DOCKS (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL,
  LONDON AND NORTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL,
  NORTH-EASTERN RAILWAY BILL,
  NORTH METROPOLITAN ELECTRIC POWER SUPPLY BILL,
  RICHMOND HILL (PRESERVATION OF VIEW) BILL,
  WEST HAM CORPORATION BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a and referred to the Examiners.

  BIRMINGHAM ASSAY OFFICE BILL [H.L.],
  DEAL AND WALMER GAS BILL [H.L.],
  DONEGAL RAILWAY BILL [H.L.],
  PLYMOUTH, DEVONPORT, AND SOUTH-WESTERN JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL [H.L.].
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.

  WATERFORD AND BISHOP FOY ENDOWED SCHOOLS BILL [H.L.],
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments.
  TYNE IMPROVEMENT COMMISSION BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments; the said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  CORNWALL ELECTRIC POWER BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.

  KING'S ROAD RAILWAY BILL [H.L.],
  KING'S ROAD RAILWAY (PUTNEY EXTENSION) BILL [H.L.],
  NORTH-EAST LONDON RAILWAY (No. 1) BILL [H.L.],
  NORTH-EAST LONDON RAILWAY (No. 2) BILL [H.L.],
  PICCADILLY AND CITY RAILWAY (No. 1) BILL [H.L.],
  PICCADILLY AND CITY RAILWAY (No. 2) BILL [H.L.].
  Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee adjourned on certain days during the recess at Whitsuntide for the convenience of parties.
  WEST AND SOUTH LONDON JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL [H.L.],

  LONDON UNITED ELECTRIC RAILWAYS BILL [H.L.],
    BROMPTON AND PICCADILLY CIRCUS RAILWAY (NEW LINES, ETC.) BILL [H.L.],
      CENTRAL LONDON RAILWAY (NEW LINES) BILL [H.L.]
      Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee adjourned on certain days during the recess at Whitsuntide for the convenience of parties.
  KING'S ROAD RAILWAY BILL [H.L.],
    KING'S ROAD RAILWAY (PUTNEY EXTENSION) BILL [H.L.]
    Report from the Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the Bills; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL.
  Read 3a, and passed.
  PAISLEY GAS PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
  Committed to a Committee of the whole House tomorrow.

  GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [H.L.],
  WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.],
  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (BARNES, ETC.) BILL [H.L.],
  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (SWANSEA UNITED DISTRICT) (No. 2) BILL [H.L.].
  Committed to a Committee of the whole House.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL [H.L.],
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL [H.L.],
  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [H.L.],
  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H.L.].
  Committed. The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (POOR LAW) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 79.)
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the following Papers having been commanded to be presented to this House by His Majesty bad been so presented on the following dates by delivery to the Clerk of the Parliaments, pursuant to Order of the House of the 17th February, 1896, viz—
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  1. SOUTH AFRICA.
  I. Papers relating to the Administration of Martial Law in South Africa (May 21.)
  II. Statistics of Refugee Camps in South Africa (in continuation of [Cd. 939.], April 1902). (May 28.)

  2. TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 2798. United States (Philadelphia).
  No. 2799. Portugal (Beira).
  No. 2800. Greece (Ionian Islands).
  No. 2801. Italy (Elba). (May 21.)
  No. 2802. China (Wuhu).
  No. 2803. Persia (Persian Gulf).
  No. 2804. China (Ningpo).
  No. 2805. France (Brest). (May 24.)
  No. 2806. France (Cherbourg). (May 28.)
  No. 2807. Peru.
  No. 2808. France (Dunkirk).
  No. 2809. Italy (Leghorn).
  No. 2810. Russia (Poland and Lithuania).

  3. MISCELLANEOUS, No. 6 (1902).
  Return of the names, ages, and previous employment of persons appointed to the Salaried Consular Service, 1897 to 1902. (May 24.)

  4. BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  I. Revised Instructions applicable to the Code of 1902. (May 27.)
  II. Draft Order in Council for further transfer of Powers to the Board of Education from the Charity Commissioners, under the Board of Education Act, 1899, Section 2. (May 28.)

  5. BOARD OF AGRICULTURE.
  Agricultural Returns (Great Britain) showing the acreage and produce of crops, prices of corn, and number of live stock, with agricultural statistics for the United Kingdom, British possessions, and Foreign Countries, 1901. (May 28.)
  6. CENSUS OF IRELAND, 1901.
  Part I. Vol. III. Province of Ulster (May 29.)
  7. MONEY ORDERS.
  Agreement for the exchange of money orders between the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and the Republic of Liberia. (May 29.)
  8. CENSUS OF ENGLAND AND WALES. 1901.
  County of Stafford (area, houses, and population), also population classified by ages, condition as to marriage, occupations, birthplaces, and infirmities. (May 29.)
  9. LABOUR STATISTICS.
  Eighth annual abstract of labour statistics of the United Kingdom, 1900–1901. (May 31.)

  10. DISEASES OF ANIMALS ACT.
  Report of Proceedings as regards Ireland, for the year 1901. (May 31).
  The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

  SOUTH AFRICA.
  Correspondence respecting terms of surrender of the Boer Forces in the Field.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION (JUDICIAL RENTS).
  Returns for the months of July, August, September, and October 1901.

  TRADE REPORTS: ANNUAL SERIES.
  No. 2811. Portugal (Lourenço Marques);
  No. 2812. Portugal (Tete).
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  INDIA (INDIA OFFICE SUPERANNUATION ALLOWANCE).
  Minute, by the Secretary of State for India, stating that the circumstances under which superannuation allowance has been granted in accordance with Section 2 of the Superannuation Act, 1887, to one of the assistants of the Auditor of Indian Accounts.
  COUNTY COURTS ACT, 1888.
  Order of the Lord Chancellor, dated 28th of May 1902, under Section 45 of the Act, ordering that John Edward Daw, Registrar of the County Court of Devonshire, held at Exeter, shall not practice as a solicitor, and that Section 20 of the Supreme Court of Judicature (Officers) Act, 1879, shall not apply to the office of the said John Edward Daw.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACTS, 1882 AND 1888.
  Special Report by the Board of Trade under Section 1 of the Electric Lighting Act, 1888.
  POLICE (COUNTIES AND BOROUGHS, ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Reports of His Majesty's Inspectors of Constabulary, for the year ended 29th September, 1901.

  POLLING DISTRICTS.
  1. (County of Southampton)—Order made by the County Council of the County of Southampton, altering certain polling districts in the Andover Parliamentary Division.
  2. Borough of Christchurch—Order made by the Council of the Borough of Christchurch, altering certain polling districts in the borough.

  PENAL SERVITUDE ACTS, 1853 TO 1891 (CONDITIONAL LICENCE).
  Licence granted by His Majesty to Mary Ann Kelly, a convict under detention in Aylesbury Prison, permitting her to be at large on condition that she enter the Elizabeth Pry Refuge, Hackney, E.

  SUPERANNUATION.
  1. Treasury Minute, dated 12th May 1902, granting to Mr. Donald McLean, Postmaster at Helensburgh, a retiring allowance under Section 2 of the Act.
  2. Treasury Minute, dated 20th May 1902, declaring that Robert Wright, Royal Laboratory, War Office, was appointed without a Civil Service certificate through inadvertence on the part of the head of his department.

  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Rules and programme of examinations for 1903.
  GENERAL PRISONS (IRELAND) ACT, 1877.
  Rules for Visiting Committees of ordinary prisons in Ireland. Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.
  MEDWAY CONSERVANCY.
  Statement of receipts and expenditure of the conservators, for the year from 25th March 1901 to the 25th March 1902.

  ARUNDEL PORT.
  Account and Report for 1901–1902.
  Delivered (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BENEFICES (CITY OF LONDON).
  Return respecting. Laid before the House (pursuant to order of the 6th of March last), and to be printed. (No. 78.)

  THE LATE LORD PAUNCEFOTE.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND LORD OF THE PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of SALISBURY): My Lords, before the House goes to the business of the day, I wish to say a few words in remembrance of one whom we have lost, whom I, through many years of friendship, deeply valued, and whose death is a very serious loss to the public service of this Empire. I refer to a Member of this House, Lord Pauncefote. I do not wish to say much about him, only to recall to your Lordships' recollection the great loss that we have sustained. He belonged to a class of public servants of whom, perhaps, we do not quite think enough, but whose power of mind, whose unflagging exertions, whose fidelity to their duty and to their chiefs, are among the causes which enable this country to uphold her strength and her isolation, in spite of all dangers and difficulties by which from time to time our history is threatened. Lord Pauncefote, is a very remarkable instance, though he is by no means a solitary one. He was a lawyer in Hong Kong. I am not aware that he had any special means of obtaining the recognition he deserved. He rose because all with whom he came in contact recognised his sterling abilities and his entire devotion to his country. He rose from one position to another. He came into the central Administration of this country. He was taken into the Colonial Office. Prom the Colonial Office he was taken into the Foreign Office, and from the Foreign Office he went to the Embassy at Washington. And he has now left behind him the reputation of having done more than any one man to cement that union between the two great Anglo-Saxon races which is one of the healthiest and most promising indications of our time. He has done a great work for his country. He has sacrificed himself to it, and I do not wish the occasion to pass without recalling him for a moment to your Lordships' recollection, and pointing

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  out how greatly we benefit by the possession of such men as an example to our public servants and as a sustaining power to the energy of the Empire.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My noble friend Lord Spencer, I am sorry to say, is detained by business in the country—I think his Yeomanry is being reviewed by Lord Roberts—and, in his absence, I desire, on behalf of the Party he leads in this House, to express our entire and sorrowful concurrence in every word that has fallen from the Prime Minister. We feel that the country has lost a great and devoted servant, whose services have been readily, generously, fully given to his country. We have but too few such men to rely upon in this time of difficulty and trouble, and I can say that the loss of Lord Pauncefote is as much deplored and grieved for by the Members of His Majesty's Opposition as it is by the members of His Majesty's Government.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords, I had no idea that the noble Marquess was going to take this opportunity, very properly, of paying a tribute to Lord Pauncefote, and I should not have intervened in the proceedings were it not that I am, perhaps, the only Foreign Secretary in this House beside the noble Marquess who was associated with him when he was Under-Secretary in that great Department. I desire to associate myself entirely with every word the noble Marquess has said. No one who had to deal with Lord Pauncefote could exaggerate the services which he rendered to the office in which he worked and to the Minister under whom he served. But it was reserved, I think, for the last act of his life to display his value to the Empire in the most conspicuous manner. We cannot but feel that the funeral honours that were rendered to Lord Pauncefote in America, afford a sure text and a sure mark of the esteem in which he was held there and the full reward of his work. I am sure that no one could utter a more auspicious hope over his grave than the aspiration that his death, as well as his life, may have tended to draw nearer the union between the two great branches of the English-speaking race.

  SOUTH AFRICAN WAR—TERMS OF PEACE.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I do not quite know what is the regular course of proceeding, but I may be guilty of disrespect to your Lordships if I did not touch on the question of the peace, which occupies the attention of us all. I have there a difficulty. The only information I can give to your Lordships is to read the terms of surrender which have been agreed upon and signed, and which, I hope, will bring the lamentable state of things in South Africa to an end. I am sorry to say they are long. I do not know if your Lordships' patience will resent my attempting to read them now, but, if it does, I can only say that they will probably be in print within the next twenty-four hours. But if I am allowed to read them, I will take leave to do so. The terms of surrender are as follows:—
  His Excellency General Lord Kitchener and His Excellency Lord Milner, on behalf of the British Government, and Messrs. M. T. Steyn, J. Brebner, General C. R. De Wet, General C. Olivier, and Judge J. B. M. Hertzog, acting as the Government of the Orange Free State, and Messrs. S. W. Burger, F. W. Reitz, Generals Louis Botha, J. H. Delarey, Lucas Meyer, and Krogh, acting as the Government of the South African Republic, on behalf of their respective burghers, desirous to terminate the present hostilities, agree on the following articles:
  Article I.—The burgher forces in the field will forthwith lay down their arms, handing over all guns, rifles, and munitions of war in their possession or under their control, and desist from any further resistance to the authority of His Majesty King Edward VII., whom they recognise as their lawful Sovereign. The manner and details of this surrender will be arranged between Lord Kitchener and Commandant General Botha, Assistant Commandant-General Delarey, and Chief Commandant De Wet.
  Article II.—All burghers in the field outside the limits of the Transvaal or the Orange River Colony, and all prisoners of war at present outside South Africa, who are burghers, will, on duly declaring their acceptance of the position of subjects of His Majesty King Edward VII., be gradually brought back to their homes as soon as transport can be provided and their means of subsistence ensured.
  Article III.—The burghers so surrendering or so returning will not be deprived of their personal liberty or their property.
  Article IV.—No proceedings, civil or criminal, will be taken against any of the burghers surrendering or so returning, for any acts in connection with the prosecution of the war. The benefit of this clause will not extend to

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  certain acts contrary to usages of war which have been notified by the Commander-in-Chief to the Boer generals, and which shall be tried by court-martial immediately after the close of hostilities.
  Article V.—The Dutch language will be taught in public schools in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony where the parents of the children desire it, and will be allowed in courts of law where necessary for the better and more effectual administration of justice.
  Article VI.—The possession of rifles will be allowed in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony to persons requiring them for their protection on taking out a license according to law.
  Article VII.—Military administration in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony will, at the earliest possible date, be succeeded by civil government, and as soon as circumstances permit representative institutions leading up to self-government will be introduced.
  Article VIII.—The question of granting the franchise to natives will not be decided until after the introduction of self-government.
  Article IX.—No special tax will be imposed on landed property in the Transvaal and Orange River Colony to defray the expenses of the war.
  Article X.—As soon as conditions permit, a commission, on which the local inhabitants will be represented, will be appointed in each district of the Transvaal and Orange River Colony, under the presidency of a magistrate or other official, for the purpose of assisting the restoration of the people to their homes, and supplying those who, owing to war losses, are unable to provide themselves with food, shelter, and the necessary amount of seed, stock, implements, etc., indispensable to the resumption of their normal occupations.
  His Majesty's Government will place at the disposal of these commissions a sum of £3,000,000 sterling for the above purposes, and will allow all notes issued under Law I. of 1900 of the South African Republic, and all receipts given by officers in the field of the late Republics, or under their orders, to be presented to a judicial commission which will be appointed by the Government, and if such notes and receipts are found by this commission to have been duly issued in return for valuable considerations they will be received by the first-named commissions as evidence of war losses suffered by the persons to whom they were originally given.
  In addition to the above-named tree grant of £3,000,000 sterling, His Majesty's Government will be prepared to make advances on loan for the same purposes, free of interest for two years, and afterwards repayable over a period of years with 3 per cent. interest.
  No foreigner or rebel will be entitled to the benefit of this clause.
  That is the close of the terms of surrender. There are some additional terms, not of such interest, which deal with questions of the treatment of rebels in the Cape Colony and Natal during the last two years, but the
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  general tendency of them may be expressed in the last words—
  "The Natal Government are of opinion that rebels should be dealt with according to the law of the colony."
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, I had no idea when I came to the House this evening, that my two noble friends who are generally associated with me on this Bench would be absent. I speak, of course, without the authority that they would carry, for they have filled again and again many high administrative offices in the State, which I cannot claim to have done. But still I do venture to ask your Lordships to allow me, in a single sentence, to express my congratulations to His Majesty's Ministers and the country on having at length brought this long war to an end. I am sure that the first feeling in the minds of all of us is one of intense gratitude to the higher Power that this war has been brought to a close. This is no time to criticise the terms of peace, or to make any remarks upon them; it is the time only to express a fervent and, may I say, confident hope, that these terms will be so interpreted, and will be so carried out by both parties to them, both in South Africa and in this country, that a lasting pacification of South Africa may ensue, and that we may have among the most loyal subjects of the Crown those very-opponents with whom we have been struggling for the past three years. I fervently hope that all remembrances of an unpleasant character in this war will pass away, and that the only remembrances that will remain in the minds of those who have taken part in the war will be remembrances of the good deeds and the valour which the trial of war has brought out on either side. I think that, if we can secure this result, we may look forward to a future that must necessarily be full of anxiety with some confidence and content.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords, I hope I may be allowed, in a single sentence, to express to His Majesty's Government my hearty, unstinted, unreserved congratulations upon the announcement of peace which they have been privileged to make today, and to

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  express the hope that today may mark the beginning of a new epoch of peace, prosperity, and commercial development throughout South Africa and the Empire.
  House adjourned at five minutes before Five o'clock, till Tomorrow, a quarter past Four o'clock.