Sitting of 28 July 1902

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  COLWYN BAY AND COLWYN URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL, FINCHLEY URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
  Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  LEICESTER CORPORATION BILL [LORDS].
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  NORTH AND SOUTH SHIELDS ELECTRIC RAILWAY BILL [LORDS] (KING'S CONSENT SIGNIFIED).
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  WREXHAM DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL [LORDS].
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  MENAI BRIDGE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL RILL [LORDS].
  As amended, considered; Amendments made, Bill to be read the third time.
  WHITSTABLE IMPROVEMENT BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER).
  As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the third time.
  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [LORDS].
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  CHARING CROSS, EUSTON, AND HAMPSTEAD RAILWAY (No. 1 AND No. 3) BILL [LORDS] AND CHARING CROSS, EUSTON, AND HAMPSTEAD RAILWAY (No. 2) BILL [LORDS], CONSOLIDATED INTO "CHARING CROSS, EUSTON, AND HAMPSTEAD RAILWAY BILL [LORDS]."
  Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  RAILWAY BILLS (GROUP 12).
  SIR LEWIS M'IVER reported from the Committee on Group 12 of Railway Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Wednesday next, at half-past eleven of the clock.
  Report to lie upon the Table.

  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered tomorrow.

  SADDLEWORTH AND SPRINGHEAD TRAMWAYS BILL [LORDS].
  Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to—Clay Cross Railway Bill, with Amendments.
  Amendments to—Consett Water Bill [Lords], Rhondda Urban District Council Tramways Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Eccles against; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions for alteration: From Leicester; and Standish; to lie upon the Table.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION (SCHOOL ATTENDANCE).
  Petition from Bradford, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  FOOD AND DRUGS ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petition from Bermondsey, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  PLUMBERS' REGISTRATION BILL.
  Petitions in favour: From Ripon; Coleraine; and Carmarthen; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  EAST INDIA (FOREIGN COMPETITION, LOCOMOTIVES).
  Return [presented 25th July] to be printed. [No. 298.]
  RAILWAY ACCIDENTS (GENERAL REPORT).
  Copy presented, of General Report to the Board of Trade upon the Accidents that have occurred on the Railways of the United Kingdom during the year 1901 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  SOUTH AFRICA (DESPATCHES).
  Copy presented, of Despatch by General Lord Kitchener, dated 23rd June, 1902, relative to military operations in South Africa [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Fifty-seventh Annual Report of the Commissioners of Charitable Donations and Bequests for Ireland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ASSIZES ACTS, 1876 TO 1879.
  Copy presented, of Order in Council, dated 26th July, 1902, directing that the Town of Cardiff shall, for the Summer Assizes, 1902, be the place where Assizes are holden in and for the County of Glamorgan [by Act], to lie upon the Table.
  SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1887.
  Copy presented, of Return for the year ended 31st March 1902 of the Army and Navy Officers permitted, under Rule 2 of the Regulations drawn up under Section 6 of the Act, to hold Civil Employment of profit under Public Departments [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 299.]
  COUNTY COUNCIL ELECTIONS 1898 AND 1901.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 23rd June; Mr. Lough]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 300.]
  LONDON (EQUALISATION OF RATES) ACT, 1894 (ACCOUNTS UNDER SECTION 1 (7) OF THE ACT).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 21st July: Mr. Grant Lawson]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 301.]

  EVICTIONS (IRELAND.)
  Copy presented, of Return of Evictions in Ireland for the quarter ended 30th June 1902 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House.

  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND.)
  Accounts of Receipts and Expenditure for 1901, with Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon [by Act]; to be printed. [No. 302.]

  TECHNICAL EDUCATION (APPLICATION OF FUNDS BY LOCAL AUTHORITIES).
  Return ordered, "showing the extent to which, and the manner in which, Local Authorities in England and Wales have applied Funds to the purposes of Technical Education (including Science, Art, Technical, and Manual Instruction) during the year 1901–2 under the
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  following Acts: Local Taxation (Customs and Excise) Act, 1890; Technical Instruction Acts, 1889 and 1891; Welsh Intermediate Education Act, 1889; and Public Libraries and Museums Acts."—(Sir John Gorst.)

QUESTONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  India—Re-armament of Native Army
  MR. WEIRTo ask the Secretary of state for India, seeing that the Government of India have earmarked for the current financial year a sum of £327,000 for the purpose of continuing the programme of rearmament of the Native Army of India, will he state by what date the entire Native Army is expected to be re-armed.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) It is hoped that the rearmament of the Native Army may be completed in the course of next financial year.

  Military Factories to render India self supporting in War Material.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state the names of the factories in India which are at present engaged in the manufacture of war material with a view to render India in dependant of Great Britain for warlike stores; and will he say how many Europeans and how many natives of India are employed in these factories.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The names of the factories for which the hon. Member asks are as follow:—Foundry and Shell Factory, Cossipore; Ammunition Factory, Dum Dum; Ammunition Factory, Kirkee; Gun Carriage Factory, Fatehgarh; Gun Carriage Factory, Bombay; Gun Carriage Factory, Madras; Harness and Saddlery Factory, Cawnpore; Harness and Saddlery Workshops, Madras; Proof Department, Balasore; Boot Factory, Cawnpore; Clothing Agency, Calcutta; Clothing Agency, Madras. I am unable to state the number of Europeans and natives employed in these factories.

  Darjeeling Municipal Council.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India, seeing that the meetings of Municipal Council of Darjeeling are frequently postponed for want of a quorum, will he consider the expediency of suggesting to the Government of Bengal the desirability of devising some better system of representation than that which at present prevails.
  (Answered ly Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) I must refer the hon. Member to the answer given to his Question on the same subject on 13th of May, in which I stated that the matter was one for the decision of the Government of Bengal, and that I did not propose to interfere with their discretion.

  Salt Supply to Khairpur.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state at what price salt is supplied by the Government of India to the native State of Khairpur, and at what price it is resold to the subjects of that State.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) Under a special agreement with the State of Khairpur, a quantity of salt, sufficient for the consumption of its population, is supplied free of duty to the State at the cost of manufacture and transport, I believe about nine annas per maund; and the State retails the salt at a price fixed by itself, which, however, must not be lower than that prevailing in the adjoining British district. I understand that the price charged at present is 3 rupees 12 annas per maund.

  Coronation—India Office Reception— Charge on Indian Revenues.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he will give the details of the expenditure of £7,000, stated to have been incurred from the revenues of India, in connection with the reception held at the India Office on 4th July.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) I have not all the details of the expenditure complete, but, as the contracts made were few, there will be no difficulty in giving the information the hon. Member asks for.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether, seeing that the auditor of the accounts of the Secretary of State in Council is empowered by Statute to examine and audit the accounts, he is empowered to examine for this purpose officers and servants of the India Office establishment, and to summon before him any such officer and servant, and that he is required to report on such accounts, and to note any case in which money arising out of the revenues of India has been appropriated to other purposes than those to which they are applicable under Statute; will he state when the auditor's remarks upon the expenditure connected with the India Office reception of 4th July will be laid before Parliament.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) The Report of the auditor on the accounts for the year 1902–3, which will include the expenditure connected with the State Ceremonial of the 4th of July, 1902, will be laid before Parliament, in accordance with the provisions of the 52nd and 53rd sections of the Act for the Better Government of India (21 and 22 Vic., c. 106), within the first fourteen days during which Parliament may be sitting after the 1st day of May, 1904.

  Glasgow Tramways—Lifeguard.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the President of the Board of Trade, in view of the Report of the Board of Trade Inspector on the V-shaped wooden plough lifeguard, with which some of the tramcars of the Glasgow Corporation are fitted, whether he will consider the expediency of recommending the Glasgow Corporation to discontinue the use of this lifeguard.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) Such a recommendation has already been made to the Corporation.

  Dingwall and Cromarty Light Railway Order.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he will state what progress has been made with the proposed scheme for the construction of a light railway between Dingwall and Cromarty.

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  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The Light Railway Order to authorise the scheme in question will, it is expected, be ready very shortly for confirmation by the Board of Trade. Some matters of drafting are all that remain to be settled.

  Return of Fleets.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty when the Return of Fleets is likely to be in the hands of Members.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) I fear that I cannot promise that this Return will be in the hands of Members before the House rises, but every effort is being made to complete it by the earliest possible date.

  H.M.S. "London."
  MR. FENWICK: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state the nature of the breakdown of the machinery of H. M. battleship "London," and how long she is likely to be under repairs at Malta.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) It has been found that the condenser glands and ferrules of H. M.S. "London" require repacking and tightening. The work will occupy about fifteen days.

  Coronation Naval Review.
  LORD CHARLES BERESFORD: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether arrangements have been made for inviting Members of Parliament, Colonial Premiers, or other guests of the State now in this country, to attend the forthcoming Naval Review; and, if so, whether he will state what facilities for the inspection of the Fleet will be afforded to those invited, and whether the tickets issued for the Coronation Review, fixed for the 28th of June, will hold good for the forthcoming review.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster) If it appears that a considerable number of Members desire to attend the Review, the Admiralty will endeavour to provide the necessary facilities. A book has been placed in Mr. Speaker's office, in which
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  Members proposing to attend the Review are invited to write their names. Two tickets will be issued to each Member, one of them being for the personal use of the Member of Parliament to whom it is issued. Tickets issued for the 28th June will not hold good for the coming Review, as the arrangements will be different in many respects to those made on the earlier occasion. The Admiralty are taking steps to meet the views of Colonial Office and Foreign Office respectively, with regard to the guests of the State and the Colonial Premiers now in this country.

  North Western District Post Office— Retirement of Mr. Stump.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he will state what are the special qualifications which necessitate the retention of the inspector, Mr. E. Stump, at the North Western District Office, after attaining the age of sixty, and if he can give the probable date of this officer's retirement.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) Mr. Stump is a thoroughly efficient officer and one of the best in his district. In these circumstances the Postmaster General sees no reason to call upon him to retire at present.

  Killorbee (Longford) Postal Arrangements.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether any complaints have been received from the Killorbee, County Longford, postal district as to the delivery of letters in that district; whether, seeing that residents in the village get their letters at 8 a.m., persons residing not in the village but in the townland on which it stands have to wait till 12 noon, an arrangement can be made to include all in the one delivery.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) It does not appear that any complaints have reached London respecting the arrangements for the delivery of letters in the Killorbee postal district, County Longford, but inquiry will be made on

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  the subject, and the result will be communicated to the hon. Member as soon as possible.

  Kenmare (Kerry) Marine Works.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether, in view of the fact that the Congested Districts Board has stated that it has no funds at its disposal to effect improvements in the harbour accommodation at Kenmare, County Kerry, he will consider the claims of that port for assistance when the funds available under the Marine Works (Ireland) Bill are allocated; (2) can he state whether any, and, if so, what, money at the disposal of the Congested Districts Board since its inception has been spent on marine works at Kenmare; (3) and will he give the Report of the surveyor or engineer employed by the Congested Districts Board to report on the existing state of the pier and harbour accommodation.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The claims of this harbour will be considered with those of others. No money has been expended by the Congested Districts Board on marine works at Kenmare. The Report referred to at the conclusion of the Question is a confidential document, which it would be contrary to practice to publish.

  King's Scholars Examinations.
  MR. BOLAND: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he will state the date or dates on which the King's Scholars Examination, or the entrance examination for admission into training colleges was held in England and Wales in 1900, 1901, and 1902; the date on which the results of this examination were made known to the candidates and to the training college authorities; the date or dates on which the examination for teachers' certificates, and the examination for King's Scholars at the end of their course of training was held in England and Wales in 1899, 1900, and 1901 the date on which the results of this examination were made known to the candidates and to the training college authorities; the date or dates on which the examination for
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  monitors at the end of their periods of service, and for candidates for entrance to training colleges, was held in Ireland in 1900, 1901, and 1902; the date on which the results of this examination were made known to the candidates and to the training college authorities; the date or dates on which the Examination of King's Scholars at the end of their course of training was held in Ireland in 1899, 1900, and 1901; and the date on which the results of this examination were made known to the candidates and to the training college authorities.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I have no information in respect to the first part of the Question. The examinations of monitors in Irish national schools, at the termination of their periods of service, and of candidates for entrance to Irish training colleges, were held in Easter week in the years 1900, 1901, and 1902. The results of these Examinations were advised to the authorities of the training colleges in 1900 and 1901 on the 31st July, and the Commissioners hope that the advices of the results of this year's examination will be ready before the close of the current month. A detailed statement of marks is sent to each candidate at or about the same time that the results are notified to the training colleges. The examinations of King's scholars in Irish training colleges were held in the first week of July in each of the years mentioned. The results of these examinations were notified to the authorities of the training colleges on the 31st August 1899, 10th September 1900, and 5th October 1901. The details of answering were sent to each King's scholar on 31st August, 27th September, and 31st October in the three years, respectively

  Irish Intermediate Education—Science Syllabus.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland on what ground have the Professors of Chemistry and Physics of the Royal College of Science for Ireland not been consulted in the framing of the Science Syllabus adopted by the Board of Intermediate Education

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  as framed by the Department of Agriculture and Technical Education. And whether he will now ascertain the views of the Professors of Chemistry and Physics in the College of Science with reference to the merits and educational value of the Science Syllabus.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) It has already been stated that the Science Syllabus was framed by the new Department upon the advice of its own educational experts. The two Professors of Physics and Chemistry at the Royal College of Science were not consulted in the matter, it not being considered necessary lo do so. One of them gave a course of instruction to teachers in secondary schools in order to prepare them to introduce the syllabus into their schools. At the close of the course of instruction his observations on the syllabus were invited, in common with those of various other professors who conducted similar courses, and such observations will be duly considered by the Department. The second professor referred to in the Question declined to conduct a similar course of instruction, on the ground that he had no desire to undertake extra work at the close of a long session.

  Magheralough (Tyrone) Roads.
  MR. MURNAGHAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that dissatisfaction exists at the delay in carrying out the proposal of the Tyrone County Council to widen a road in the townland of Magheralough, in the rural district of Tullick; and, seeing that an order for the acquisition of the land necessary was given by the Judge of Assize in July 1901, but the appointment of an arbitrator was made only last month, will he explain the cause of this delay.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The order of the Judge of Assize was not sent to the Local Government Board until January last. The maps and schedules were not furnished until April. The schedules were then found to differ from those attached to the Judge's order, and, further correspondence becoming
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  necessary, the Board was not in a position to appoint an arbitrator until the 5th June.

  Kinwara (Galway) Harbour.
  MR. DUFFY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he received a copy of a resolution passed at a public meeting in Kinwara, county Galway, in reference to the condition of Kinwara Harbour; and, seeing that vessels are obliged to anchor far out in the harbour on account of the condition of the pier, whether it is proposed to include Kinwara Harbour amongst the places to be scheduled under the Marine Works (Ireland) Bill.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The resolution has been received. As already stated, I cannot, at the present stage, indicate the particular works of this description to which the Bill, should it become law, will apply.

  Army—Reserve Officers' Promotion.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the delay experienced by the reserve of officers in regard to the question of promotion, he can now fix a definite date when promotion shall be given.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The names will be announced shortly.

  South African War—Imperial Yeomanry—Medals.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the decision come to by the War Office that troops landing in South Africa after the 31st May would not be entitled to receive either medals or gratuity refers to the Yeomanry raised under the Special Army Order of the 9th of January; and, if so, whether exception can be made in their case, seeing that they were detained for four months at Aldershot instead of two months, as originally arranged.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Imperial Yeomanry enlisted for service in South Africa do not differ in this respect from the Regular Forces, and will be treated in accordance with

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  the terms of special Army Order of 4th June. The detention at Aldershot was due to the necessity of securing proper training before proceeding to South Africa, and does not appear to justify any distinction being made between these men and those in the Regular Forces who arrived in South Africa subsequently to the date in question.

  Transport—Conveyance of Government Stores to South Africa.
  MR. LABOUGHERE: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will state the system adopted by the War Office in arranging freight for the conveyance of Government stores and material to South Africa; whether the War Office acts through the Admiralty; if so, whether the Admiralty books directly with the steam ship lines, or through a broker or agent; whether, if so, the broker or agent invites tenders from all sources, and accepts the lowest tender.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) The arrangements for the conveyance of Government stores to South Africa or elsewhere are made by the Admiralty, who employ for this purpose a shipping agent under the direction of the Director of Transports. Tenders are invited by advertising the Government requirements at the Shipping Exchange, the office of the Admiralty agent, and at the Baltic when necessary, and the offer which is considered most advantageous is accepted.

  Medals for Army and Volunteer Nurses.
  MR. CHARLES DOUGLAS: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether any reward or distinction, other than the South African war medal, has been given to any of the nurses who served in South Africa; if so, whether such reward has been conferred upon Army nurses only or upon volunteers also; and if any difference has been made in the treatment of these classes of nurses, what are the grounds upon which this has been done.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The decoration of the Royal Red Cross has been awarded to certain Army and Volunteer Nurses who were officially
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  recognised. Distinctions of various grades have also been awarded by the Grand Prior of the Order of St. John of Jerusalem on the recommendation of the War Office to Nurses and Volunteers officially recognised.

  (2.15.) QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

    South Africa—Lord Milner and the Cape Constitution.
    MR. BRYN ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to a public statement made by Sir Gordon Sprigg on the 6th instant with reference to Lord Milner's views upon the suspension of the Cape Constitution, that Lord Milner has no jurisdiction in the Cape, that he is High Commissioner, that his duties are entirely outside the Cape, and that the Governor of the Colony represents the Crown; and will he state whether the High Commissioner has any, and, if so, what, duties in relation to Cape Colony; and, if not, whether he has made any communication to Lord Milner on the subject.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK—(for Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN): I have seen the statement referred to, which appears to be correct, but I am not aware that Lord Milner has claimed any jurisdiction within the Cape Colony, and I have not thought it necessary to take any action in the matter.
    MR. BRYN ROBERTSasked whether Lord Milner did not communicate his views on the suspension of the Cape Constitution.
    MR. BRODRICK: No, Sir.
    MR. FLYNN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Lord Milner advised a deputation of the South African League to bring pressure to bear on the Imperial Government?

    Lendy Estate, Rhodesia.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the assets of the estate of the late James Murray, alias

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    M'Gowan, alias M'Gavan, arising out of his share of the Lendy Estate, have yet been realised by the executor dative, the Secretary of the Salisbury Board of Executors in Rhodesia, South Africa; and, if not, seeing that this man's parents are living in destitution in Longford, he will direct an inquiry to be made to ascertain the cause of the delay.
    MR. BRODRICK—(for Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN): I understand that the answer is in the negative. I will cause inquiry to be made through the High Commissioner, but I believe the fact to be that the Lendy property, consisting of ten farms, could not be realised some twelve months ago owing to the fact that several of the co-owners could not be found, and that consequently transfer could not be effected.

    2nd Life Guards—Officers' Horse-Play.
    MR. LABOUCHERE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a second lieutenant of the Second Life Guards was roughly handled by certain of the officers of that regiment, and his quarters damaged by them; whether he can inform the House of the reason of this attack; and if an inquiry into the matter has been, or, if not, will be, instituted, and the implicated persons punished."
    MAJOR RASCH: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers, may I ask whether, in his opinion, this alleged outrage has not been grossly exaggerated both in the Question and in the Press.
    MR. BRODRICK: The answer to both Questions is that the case is being investigated by a Board of officers.

    Sandhurst College—Incendiary Fires and Disturbances—Indiscriminate punishment of Cadets.
    MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is yet in a position to make any statement in regard to the Sandhurst incident and the investigations of the Commander-in-Chief.
    MR. BRODRICK: The Commander-in-Chief has completed his inquiry into the Sandhurst incident, and the additional evidence which has come to light
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    has made it possible for him to exonerate all but two of the cadets who were rusticated. Arrangements have been made for examination by which those exonerated will, if successful, lose no seniority.
    MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: May I ask whether, in view of the fuller evidence that has come to light, the case of the three servants sent away at the same time will be reconsidered?
    MR. BRODRICK: The cases of the three servants are under consideration.

    Roman Catholic Chaplains for the Navy.
    MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state on whose recommendation Roman Catholic chaplains to the Navy are appointed; and whether any Roman Catholic ecclesiastics are consulted as to the appointments and remuneration of Roman Catholic chaplains to the Navy.
    THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,): The appointments of Roman Catholic chaplains are made on the recommendation of the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster. Any recommendations made by the Cardinal on the subject of their remuneration also receive full consideration.
    CAPTAIN DONELAN: Are Irish ecclesiastics consulted at all in this matter?
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Cardinal Vaughan is the only one consulted.
    MR. GILHOOLY: But are not the appointments mainly made on the recommendation of a Church of England clergyman—the chaplain of the Fleet?
    *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The Question has been fully answered.

    Naval Gunnery.
    LORD CHARLES BERESFORD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Admiralty will consider the advisability of having the names of the two best heavy gun shots on each station published, in a similar manner to that already done with regard to the best rifle shots in the Fleet.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: As I stated in reply to the hon. Member for Chester on the 18th inst., the question whether any further steps can be taken to mark the supreme importance of proficiency in gunnery is being carefully considered, and the suggestion made by the noble Lord has already engaged the attention of the Admiralty. Apart, however, from other objections, it is considered that the different conditions under which individual ships carry out their prize firing render it impossible to institute personal comparisons in the manner suggested. At the same time, it is hoped that some other method of recognising and distinguishing excellence in firing not open to the objections referred to may be found.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: May I ask whether, when this matter is being considered, the advisability of making some addition to the pay of the gun captains will be considered.
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: There are additions made already to the ordinary pay of all gun captains.

    India—Weather Telegrams.
    MR. C. P. SCOTT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the delay in the publication of the weekly telegrams received from the Viceroy of India; and whether, having regard to the commercial importance of the information contained in these telegrams, he can make arrangements for their delivery to the Press on the day of receipt or at least on the day following.
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (LordG. HAMILTON,): The hon. Member is referred to the answer which I gave to a similar Question asked by the hon. Member for Camborne on the 25th instant.† I may add that, owing to the time at which these weekly telegrams have hitherto been received, and to the intervention of Sunday, a delay of two days in their publication has been unavoidable: but I have asked that the time of their despatch from India may be changed for the future.
    † See page 1266,
    MR. C. P. SCOTT: Is the noble Lord aware that the telegram of last Saturday week was not published until the following Thursday?
    LORD G. HAMILTON: There was a necessary delay of two days, as I said, on account of its arriving on a Saturday, and there was also some delay in the printing.

    Australian Immigration Restriction Act—Provisions as to Deserters.
    MR. CHARLES M'ARTHUR: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is yet in a position to state the result of inquiry into the working of the Australian Immigration Restriction Act, 1901, especially as regards the penalty of £100 imposed by it upon the master or owner of any vessel from which any prohibited immigrant enters the Commonwealth; whether he is aware that this penalty cannot be enforced in the case of deserters from vessels belonging to the United States and other foreign countries with which this country has treaty provisions relative to the treatment of deserters; and whether, seeing that the effect of the Act is to subject British vessels in a British Colony to a liability from which foreign vessels are exempt, he will take steps to place owners of British and foreign vessels on the same footing.
    THE UNDERSECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE, Rochester): I am advised that the Australian Immigration Restriction Act contains nothing which interferes with the Treaties concluded by His Majesty's Government under Section 238 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, for the surrender of merchant seamen deserters. Deserters from foreign vessels are therefore on precisely the same footing as deserters from British vessels.

    City Fire Inquest.
    MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the evidence given by Mr. Vaughan, one of His Majesty's inspectors of factories, at the City fire inquest, to the effect that

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    when he visited the premises after the fire no one was present but the manager of the firm, and that he was not given full information as to the work of the girls employed; and, seeing this inspector admitted that the decision of the Home Office that the place was not a factory had been based on insufficient materials, whether he will ensure that in future such inspections shall be more complete.
    *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. RITCHIE,): I have received a Report from Mr. Vaughan on this matter, and I find that the only defect in the information which he obtained from the manager was that he did not learn that one girl had been employed for about a month before the fire in tying artificial sprays of leaves to electric tubing for use as Coronation decorations. I am advised that this additional information does not affect in any way the decision that the premises were not a workshop under the Factory Act. Mr. Vaughan is an excellent inspector, and most careful in his inquiries; and the information which he obtained in this case was amply sufficient for the purpose in view. The section of the Factory Act with regard to means of escape from fire would only have applied if there had been a workshop employing forty persons.

    Tolls on Registered Tonuage.
    MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the registered tonnage of a number of steamboats is one-fourth of their carrying power; and, seeing that tolls are only levied on the registered tonnage, will he take steps to protect the interests of the authorities who are responsible for the collection and expenditure of these tolls.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): The registered tonnage of British ships is ascertained by the application of the rules contained in the Second Schedule to the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and there is no fixed relation between registered tonnage and carrying capacity. As I have previously stated, it is open to harbour authorities by means of local Acts to endeavour to
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    obtain power to levy dues based on a proportion of the gross instead of the net tonnage of vessels, and several authorities have secured such power.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Will the right hon. Gentleman support endeavours by local authorities to obtain these powers?
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: In almost every case that has come before me I have done so.

    Vaccination—Glycerinated Calf Lymph
    MR. CORRIE GRANT: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the experiments of Dr. Rao, bacteriologist to the Government of Mysore, showing that glycerinated calf lymph contained organisms and was in no case sterile, he will consider the propriety of using some other lymph mixture which could be guaranteed to be free from disease germs.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,): Dr. Rao tested the properties of glycerine and lanoline in eliminating extraneous micro-organisms from vaccine lymph. His experiments showed that under the conditions of a tropical country neither medium could be trusted always to render the lymph absolutely sterile, but lanoline was superior to glycerine, inasmuch as it interfered less with the proper activity of the lymph in vaccination. On the other hand, the bacteriologist of the Local Government Board has found that under the conditions of this country glycerine is better than lanoline for the purpose of eliminating extraneous micro-organisms from the lymph and does not unduly interfere with the proper activity of the lymph. I do not at present propose to make any change in the methods adopted by the Local Government Board for preserving vaccine lymph.

    Elementary School Children at Religious Observances.
    MR. CHARLES M'ARTHUR: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he is aware that on Thursday, 29th May, children attending the day schools of St. Mark's Church, Marylebone, were

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    conducted to a service in the church, at which incense was used and Holy Communion celebrated without the requisite number of communicants; will he say whether this treatment of scholars attending a public elementary school in receipt of a Government grant has the sanction of the Education Department; whether they have power to prevent it; and, if not, will he take steps to obtain power to prevent such proceedings in the future.
    MR. H. J. WILSON: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he is aware that the children of the church school at Dorchester, Oxfordshire, are required to say the Hail Mary, to bow to the crucifix, to attend the children's mass on saints' days, and to bow to the altar; that several children who refused to bow to the altar have been caned on returning to school; and that children whose parents object to their going to mass are not allowed to take part in the school treat; and will he say what action he will take in the matter.
    THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION (Sir JOHN GORST,): I am informed that the school referred to in the Question of the hon. Member for the Exchange Division of Liverpool is not that of St. Mark's, Marylebone, but that of St. Mark's, Marylebone Road, which is an entirely different school. The Board of Education have no information as to the facts alleged. As to the Question of the hon. Member for the Holmfirth Division of Yorkshire, the facts suggested are not admitted by the correspondent of the Board of Education, and it is positively denied that any child has ever been caned for refusing to bow to the altar. But the religious instruction and observances in a public elementary school are subject to regulation by the managers and not by the Board of Education. Any attempt on the part of the latter to sanction or disallow the religious instruction or observances prescribed by the managers would be, in their opinion, contrary to
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    the spirit of the 97th Section of the Elementary Education Act, 1870. Under the Conscience Clause no child can be required against the wish of the parent to attend such observances. It is the statutory duty of the Board of Education to prevent the infraction of this provision of the Elementary Education Acts. But the Board of Education are of opinion that any extension of their duties in this respect would be inexpedient.
    MR. CHARLES M'ARTHUR: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it is not the fact that I supplied to him the name and address of a gentleman who would fully authenticate the statements in the Question?
    SIR JOHN GORST: I did not mean in any way to throw doubt on the facts as stated by the hon. Gentleman, but naturally it was my duty to communicate with the correspondent of the Board, and he wrote back to say that the people were away for their holidays, and that it was impossible for him to get information as to the accuracy of the facts mentioned.
    MR. H. J. WILSON: May I ask whether it is permissible to take children out of the schools to church; and also whether the right hon. Gentleman has any answer to give to the latter part of my Question with regard to the school treat?
    SIR JOHN GORST: I am told that there is no school treat—that the school is too poor to give a treat. That is one of the inaccuracies in the Question noted by the correspondent. With regard to the other Question of the hon. Member, I see no objection whatever to children being taken from school to a place of worship. It is constantly done.

    Invergarry and Fort Augustus Railway.
    MR. JOHN DEWAR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Government will give facilities during the autumn session for the consideration of the Highland and Invergarry and Fort Augustus Railway Companies

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    Provisional Order, proposed to be proceeded with under the Private Legislation (Scotland) Act, 1899, as a private Bill, having regard to the fact that any delay will postpone the opening of the Invergarry and Fort Augustus Railway, which will cause loss to the railway company, and be a source of great inconvenience to the district.
    THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): I am informed that it would be highly inconvenient, and not in accordance with precedent, to set up an opposed Committee on a Private Bill during the autumn session. The hon. Member has already been informed that an Amendment to Standing Orders will be moved so as to admit of the proceedings already taken being available for the prosecution of the Bill if introduced into Parliament next session.

    Bantry Fair.
    MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that inconvenience to the buyers and sellers of cattle was experienced at the fair held at Bantry, County Cork, on 16th instant, through the failure of the Cork, Bandon, and South Coast Railway Company to provide a sufficient supply of wagons; and whether he will take steps to prevent the recurrence of this inconvenience.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No complaint in this matter has been made to the Board of Trade, and I have no information as to the circumstances referred to. If particulars are supplied to the Board I will cause a communication thereon to be addressed to the railway company concerned, but the matter is not one in regard to which the Board have any compulsory powers.

    Telegraphic Addresses.
    MR. JOYCE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that on Wednesday last Mr. Robert Gibson, Limerick, received a wire from Kilrush, County Clare, signed Moody, and then got a notice stating that the reply which he sent could not be
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    delivered owing to insufficient address; and whether, with the view of preventing loss to the sender of the telegram, he will have an inquiry made into the circumstances; and will he state when the result of the inquiry will be known of the inquiry being held at Limerick Post Office.
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): Inquiry is being made with respect to the non-delivery of the telegram to which the hon. Member refers, and the result shall be communicated to him. The Postmaster General has received the Report of the officer entrusted with the inquiry into the Limerick office, and the several points of detail, which, as the result shows, require attention, are now being dealt with.
    MR. JOYCE: Will I get a copy of the Report?
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No, I think not.

    Blasket Islands.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, seeing that no steps have yet been taken to build a pier at the landing stage from the Blasket Islands, Dingle Union, whether he will take some steps to enable the residents on the island to carry on communications with the shore.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM, Dover): In July, 1900, the Congested Districts Board offered to contribute one-half of the estimated cost of a landing-place at Dunquin on the mainland, provided the work were carried out by the county authorities on approved plans. This offer was not accepted.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the fact that excessively high rates are charged, and that—
    MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is now arguing in favour of the right hon. Gentleman changing his view.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I want further information.
    MR. SPEAKER: Then any further Question must be put down in the ordinary way.

    Labourers' Cottage Schemes in the Longford Union.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland can he state the cause of delay in the sixth Labourers' Act scheme in Longford Union; and, seeing that the arbitration inquiry is not being held, although all the legal formulas have been long since complied with, will he direct that the remaining stages be no longer delayed.
    MR. WYNDHAM: It is not the fact that the legal formulae have long since been complied with. New plans for the building of the cottages have been adopted by the District Council, and until copies of these have been supplied to the Local Government Board the loan cannot be sanctioned. The Board is also awaiting the receipt of necessary maps from the Council before directing the arbitration inquiry to be held.

    Annally (County Longford) Estate.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the number of farms on the Annally, County Longford, Estate, purchase agreements for which were signed by the tenants; how many of these tenants had their applications sanctioned, and how many were rejected; and on what ground were any tenants' agreements rejected; and, seeing that twenty years' purchase is being demanded in the case of these rejected tenants, will he request the Land Commission to reconsider these applications with a view to sale.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The number of applications for purchase received by the Land Commission from tenants on this estate was 130, of which 110 were sanctioned. In the remaining twenty cases proceedings are at present pending, except in a few where the applications were for sums between £2 and £9, which the Commissioners considered should be paid by the tenants in cash. The Registrar of the Land Judges Court states that so far
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    as he is aware none of the tenants' agreements were rejected by the parties having carriage of the sale.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: If I am able to show the right hon. Gentleman that nine or ten applications were rejected, will he make further inquiry into the reason why?
    MR. WYNDHAM: Yes, but my information is that twenty cases are still pending, and that none have been rejected.

    MacFarlane Estate, County Tyrone.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what is the cause of the delay in the sale to the tenants of the MacFarlane Estate at Fullagherin, County Tyrone; and, seeing that the estate has been in the Land Judges Court since 1882, and that a receiver was appointed in 1883, he can by means of the 40th section or any other procedure expedite the sale of the estate to the tenants.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The sporting rights on this estate are reserved from sale. The terms of purchase, subject to this condition, have been agreed to by all the tenants save three. If these latter persist in their demand, it is not unlikely, I understand, that the proceedings for sale will fall through.
    MR. DILLON: Is it not the fact that the sporting rights on this estate belong to Judge Ross, the head of the Court, and that he has blocked the sale of the estate in order to secure them?
    [No answer was returned.]

    Irish Local Taxation Account.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, seeing that the balance accumulated on the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account during the last three years is now close on £100,000, and is yearly increasing, he will say what accumulation he will consider sufficient to meet deficiencies, as specified in Section 58, Sub-section 5, of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898; and when he intends to ask Parliament to distribute all that may not be required for deficiencies.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The question of the disposal of the unexpended balance on the Local Taxation Account is admittedly one of importance, but Parliamentary action in the matter must be postponed pending full consideration of the recent Report of the Royal Commission on Local Taxation.

    Birr Labourer's Cottage Scheme.
    MR. REDDY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on 4th November, 1899, the Birr (No. 1) District Council made a scheme under the Labourers' (Ireland) Acts, in which they included a cottage for Patrick Cassidy in the townland of Kilnagally glebe; that, in consequence of some alteration of site, it was subsequently resolved to omit this cottage from the Provisional Order confirming the scheme on condition that it would be included in a subsequent scheme since undertaken; whether he is aware that the Local Government Board for Ireland decline to include the cottage in the new scheme, although the necessary legal formulas have been gone through, on the ground that it was not specifically included in the last scheme; and whether he will direct the Local Government Board to include the cottage on Kilnagally glebe for Patrick Cassidy, without putting the council to the expense of taking out a Provisional Order in respect of one cottage.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The application was omitted from the Provisional Order in the first instance because the District Council failed to obtain the necessary consent of the parties interested to an alternative site. The consent was obtained subsequently to the issue of the Order, but the Council failed to include the case in the second scheme, and, notwithstanding the omission, requested the Board to include it in the Order confirming this scheme. The Board was advised, however, that in the absence of a specific representation in respect of the alternative site, and as the case was not included in the second scheme, it had no legal power to comply with the wishes of the council.
    MR. REDDY: Can the right hon. Gentleman say why?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I have just stated the reasons.
    MR. J. P. FARRELL: Is it not the fact that the expense incurred for a scheme for one cottage is the same as that for 100 cottages?

    Craughwell (Sligo) Murder.
    MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what grounds a prisoner named Finegan has been released from custody and a prisoner named Muldowney is still detained, although both were convicted of the Craugh well murder eighteen years ago at Sligo; and will he state when Muldowney will be released.
    MR. WYNDHAM: The decision to release Finegan was arrived at by the Lord Lieutenant as dispenser of the prerogative of mercy, and no reasons for its exercise, or non-exercise, can be given. I am unable to state when Muldowney will be released. This case, in common with that of any prisoner under a life sentence, will be specially considered under prison rules at the proper time.

    Irish University Commission.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can now state when the final Report of the Irish University Commission will be presented.
    THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): Since this Question was asked a week ago I have made further inquiries, and, as a result, the Commissioners have informed me they are at present unable to say when the Report will be presented.
    MR. DILLON: Do they give any reason? Do they propose taking further evidence?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: All they said was that it was not possible to say when the Report would be presented.
    MR. DILLON: They were appointed more than a year ago.

    Gibraltar Defences.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, has the Report of the engineer, sent to Gibraltar in November, upon the data completed in April last, been now received; if so, can he state its conclusions regarding the eastern harbour recommended by the Gibraltar Committee in March, 1901, as an imperative necessity. Do His Majesty's Government propose, before acting on this Report, to submit it to Mr. Stevens, the master attendant at Gibraltar; and have His Majesty's Government meantime taken any steps to diminish the exposure to fire of the works on the western side, pointed out by Captain "Buckle in January, 1894, and by Major General Slade and General Sir George White in February, 1901, as making the docks and anchorage untenable, and as rendering it impossible for the Gibraltar garrison to ensure keeping Gibraltar open as a Naval base.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Report has been received, and is now under the consideration of the Board of Admiralty. I cannot at present make any statement as to the contents of the document, nor as to the steps which the Admiralty may think proper to adopt in connection with it. With regard to the last Question, I can only refer the hon. Member to what has already been said in both Houses on the subject. I cannot deal with it in answer to a Question.

    Atlantic Shipping Trust.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether His Majesty's Government propose to make, before the House rises on 8th August, any statement of the policy they propose to pursue and the action, if any, which they propose to take in reference to the Atlantic Shipping Trust, which has recently acquired a large number of British vessels; do they intend to afford any, and, if so, what occasion to this House to discuss the effects of the Trust upon British trade and shipping; and will they do this before entering into any binding agreement with the Trust.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am afraid there is practically no possibility that I
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    shall be in a position to make any statement before the House rises next week. If any agreement were entered into at any time with the Atlantic Shipping Trust which involved any financial arrangement it would necessarily be subject to the approval of Parliament.

    Meteorological Grant.
    MR. JOHN DEWAR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government, in giving the annual grant of £15,300 to the Meteorological Council, will make it a condition that the high level and low level observatories at Fort William be maintained in a state of efficiency, or consider the advisability of making an additional contribution to the Meteorological Council towards the expense of properly maintaining these observatories.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: As I am at present advised, it would not be desirable to impose conditions on the Meteorological Council or to inquire into this or that particular observatory. I am not prepared to give an answer to the last part of the Question.

    Business of the House.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when the Marine Works (Ireland) Bill is to be taken?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I hope an opportunity will be found in the course of the present week, but I cannot say definitely.
    MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Will it be put down as the first Order?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes, Sir, I gave an undertaking that it should be substantially the first Order.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Can the right hon. Gentleman give us particulars of other business to be taken this week and next, and also when the stages of the Appropriation Bill will be taken?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Education Bill will be taken on Wednesday as well as tonight; the Colonial Office Vote will be taken at the morning sitting on

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    Tuesday, and the Works Vote as first order at the evening sitting. On Thursday Supplementary Estimates and Excess Votes at the morning sitting, and possibly the Irish Local Government Bill Committee in the evening (I will say with more certainty tomorrow); the London Water Bill I hope may be taken on Friday, but again I cannot say for certain.
    MR. JOHN REDMONDWill not a Motion be necessary to enable a Bill to be taken on Thursday night instead of Supply?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes; under the circumstances I shall be obliged to move one.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: If the Water Bill is not taken on Friday, what business will be substituted for it?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUE: There has been some difficulty as to the arrangement of Friday's business, which prevents me from saying before tomorrow what will be Friday's business if the Water Bill is not put down. The Appropriation Bill will be put down next week for Second Reading on Wednesday morning, and on Friday morning for Third Reading.
    MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Why not put down the Supplementary Vote for the morning sitting on Thursday, and the Excess Vote for the evening sitting? It is a very important Vote, involving an expenditure of more than three millions in excess of what has been sanctioned by Parliament.
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am afraid that the demands on our time are so great that I cannot yield to my hon. friend's wish. I hope there will be plenty of time at the morning sitting, for all the business I have indicated.
    SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: What is to be the business for Monday and Tuesday next?
    MR. A. J. BALFOUR: They will be the concluding days of Supply.

SOUTH AFRICA—COURTS MARTIAL COMMISSION.
[MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT.]
MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask leave of the House to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance—namely, the composition of, and the scope of the reference to, the Commission appointed to inquire into the sentences imposed by military courts established by military law in the South African Colonies and Protectorates.
*MR. SPEAKER: I do not think that this is a definite matter of urgent public importance within the meaning of the Standing Order. It will involve a discussion of what are the subjects that ought to be referred to by the Commission—much too wide a question to be discussed on such a Motion.
MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: With great respect, Sir, I will ask leave to confine my Motion to the composition of the Commission, but I may mention that a Motion similar in terms to that I have asked leave to move was allowed on 5th July, 1900, in reference to the Hospitals Commission in South Africa.
*MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has had the advantage of referring to the record of that incident, which I have not; but still I must adhere to my ruling, for it appears to me these are totally different questions, the one being what enquiry should be made into the management of particular hospitals, the other a question that may raise a general discussion upon the whole administration of martial law at the Cape.
MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: In that case, Sir, will you allow me to curtail my Motion, so as to confine it to the "composition of the Commission?"
*MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member may ask the leave of the House, but in the event of its being granted he must confine himself strictly to the composition of the Commission.
The Motion was then put, That Mr. SWIFT MACNEILL be given leave to move the adjournment of the House for the

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purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance, viz., "the composition of the Commission appointed to inquire into the sentences imposed by military courts established under martial law in South African Colonies and Protectorates," but the pleasure of the House not having been signified, Mr. SPEAKER called on those Members who supported the Motion to rise in their places, and not less than forty Members having accordingly risen,
The Motion stood over, under Standing Order No. 17, until the evening sitting this day.

PATENT LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
Reported, from the Standing Committee on Trade, &c., with Amendments.
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 303.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 303.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 288.]

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (GOVERNMENT BUSINESS).
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: A very brief statement will be required of me with regard to the Motion I have to propose, because at Question time on this and previous days I have been put through a course of interrogation which has elicited the main points of the programme the Government desire to dispose of before the summer holidays. Tonight and Wednesday will, I trust, enable the Committee with ease to dispose of Clause 7 of the Education Bill. I shall not propose to enter on Clause 8 in the course of the present session, because I think the end of Clause 7 will be a convenient point at which to break off our debates. I hope also that some progress will be made with the Water Bill, though of this I am not so absolutely confident. These are the only two Bills which I think can be described as controversial the House will be asked to deal with before the adjournment, which I hope will be on August 8. Two Irish Bills will require some discussion—not long, for they cannot be called controversial; and even less so is the Bill
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in charge of the Minister for Agriculture in relation to food and drugs. The House will also have to deal with the Lords' Amendment to the Shop Clubs Bill, the Public Works Loans Bill, the Expiring Laws, the Isle of Man Customs, and the Pacific Cable Bills, all non-controversial. There are also the Lords' Amendments to the Licensing Bill, which, I am told, are not of such importance as to cause any serious inroad on Parliamentary time. In these circumstances I ask the House to make the sacrifice of convenience which is habitual at the termination of the session, and which it has been the custom to make at a much earlier period than we have now arrived at. I believe the recent practice has been to suspend the twelve o'clock Rule for the remainder of the session about the 20th July. I have the gratification of remembering that the House has been asked to sit less after twelve o'clock during the present than in any previous session in Parliamentary history for a large number of years. [An HON. MEMBER: Autumn session.] I am dealing, of course, with the session only so far as it has proceeded. What the Autumn session may bring forth I cannot say. I do not contemplate the probability, or even the possibility, of the House sitting after Coronation Day; it is only some unforeseen accident that could produce so lamentable a consequence. The Motion I have to make will not be precisely in the form of which I have given notice. By the courtesy of an hon. Member opposite, my attention has been drawn to the drafting.† which, following the old model, would have the effect of depriving Members of the dinner interval. If it were carried as it stands, we should lose our dinner hour, and it might prove an inconvenient reminder of what has been gained by the new Rule. I beg to move the Resolution in this form:—
"That, until the rising of the House on August 8th, Government business be not interrupted, except at half-past seven o'clock, under the provisions of any Standing Order regulating the sittings of the House; and may be entered upon at any hour though opposed; and that at the conclusion of Government business each day Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House without Question put."
† The Motion of which Mr. Balfour had given notice had not the words "except at half-past seven of the clock in the afternoon."
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: On a point of order, I submit that this alteration can only be made after notice. There are many Members who would prefer to sit during the one and a half hours from half-past seven to nine to sitting after midnight.
*MR. SPEAKER: The alteration is quite in order. It somewhat diminishes the stringency of the original Motion.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: We think it increases its severity.
Motion made, and Question proposed, That, until the 8th August, Government business be not interrupted, except at half-past seven of the clock in the afternoon, under the provisions of any Standing Order regulating the sittings of the House; and may be entered upon at any hour, though opposed; and that at the conclusion of Government business each day Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House without Question put."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Setting aside for the moment these little intricacies, may I observe that the right hon. Gentleman has said with perfect truth and force that this habitual Motion has been moved later than usual. But looking back on the years that have passed let us consider what have been the intentions of these annual Motions. The usual intention of the Motion has been to facilitate the progress of unopposed business, to wind up things, and enable the House to deal with small questions thrust aside by the larger controversies of the session; to, in fact, give the House elbow room after twelve o'clock to transact humdrum but necessary business. Now let the House consider the occasion on which the Motion is made this year. We are in the middle of the discussion of the Education Bill—a great Bill exciting the most intense interest throughout the country, a Bill not only of a complicated character, but touching to some extent the inmost feelings and convictions of religious belief and the strong desire to adhere to the strict rules of political principle. The stage of the Bill at which we have arrived raises controversy in the acutest form. The right
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hon. Gentleman says the close of Clause 7 would be a convenient resting place; and so it would have been, for Clause 8 opens a new subject which deserves to be taken not at the end of the present session, but with the full energy with which Members will return in the autumn. But the right hon. Gentleman has altered his Bill, and has imported into Clause 7 the very matters that deserve full consideration in Clause 8 as it existed. Therefore, we must understand, before agreeing to this Motion, that the liberty given to the Government to keep the House sitting after twelve o'clock will not be used for forcing through at this stage of the sitting this most important part of the Bill. I do not wish to exaggerate the importance of these provisions, I do not wish to speak too strongly of the feeling they have created in the country, but I do say that nothing could be more foolish, even in the interest of those who approve of the provisions in the Bill, than to add to that feeling the further feeling that the assent of the House has been obtained under pressure at the end of an exhausting session. It must be remembered that this is not an ordinary session. We commenced our proceedings in January. It may be the case that we have had but few sittings after midnight, but nevertheless our sittings have been continuous and fatiguing, and it seems to me to be asking too much of the House to propose that we should necessarily conclude Clause 7 of the Education Bill before we rise for the recess. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will be able to give an assurance that, whatever disposition he makes of the time of the House during the next fortnight, he will not keep the House sitting to a very late hour at night for the purpose of passing this Clause. It would be a most unfortunate thing, a most unwise thing, and I will go farther, and say it would be a most indecent thing, if such a question as this, affecting the dearest interests and the most intimate feelings of a large mass of the people, were dealt with in circumstances of that kind. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman can give us any such assurance. [Ministerial cries of "No, no!"] A great many hon. Members opposite appear to think that all-night sittings are something to boast about and be proud of,

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but I venture to say that that is not an effective way of dealing with a critical, complicated, and delicate question. Any law secured under such circumstances, when it deals with matters of this kind, will be the constant subject of attack and denunciation in the country for many years to come. The right hon. Gentleman has, I understand, judging from what he has just said, rather given the go-by to the London Water Bill, but he does wish to proceed with the Education Bill. What I will say of this Motion is, that if the right hon. Gentleman has determined to proceed to the end of Clause 7 of the Education Bill, let it, at all events, be done in the light of day, when every part of the Bill is fully reported, and when the House is not sitting under any unusual or injurious strain. Let the right hon. Gentleman now say that he will not use this power, which, as I have said, has always been willingly given for the convenience of business of the House generally, but not in the interest of some particular Bill which the Government wish to press through. If the right hon. Gentleman will give the House some such assurance as that, he will do away with a great deal of the feeling of hostility with which we necessarily regard a Motion of this kind.
MR. JAMES LOWTHER: Without entering into the question of the late sittings, there is a good deal to be said from the point of view raised by the right hon. Gentleman opposite. As a rule, this Motion is made for the purpose of winding up the business of the session. I think the Leader of the House is largely in sympathy with the general principle that the work of this House ought to be conducted in what the right hon. Gentleman opposite has called the light of day, or at any rate in what are called decent hours. It will be contrary to what has hitherto been recognised as a precedent, if an important clause is to be pressed through an important stage under such conditions. I do not think that my right hon. friend meant that. I hope it will be distinctly understood that we are not now giving our sanction to the prolongation of our sittings beyond
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ordinary reasonable hours, and that no attempt will be made to force through an important stage of the Bill under those conditions.
SIR CHARLES DILKE: I am afraid we are being asked to do that which my right hon. friend is anxious that we should not be forced to do. It is well known that the special object of this Motion is to force through Clause 7 of the Education Bill, which deals with this question of the popular management of schools, as to which it is really essential that people should know what is being done. That is the ground of our opposition to this Motion, but in addition I confess it seems to me that we ought to extract from the Government some statement of the kind which is usual in regard to the business generally. I do not know if it is the intention of the Leader of the House to make a full statement with regard to the other business which he means to go on with in the present session. If it is the intention of the right hon. Gentleman to make a full statement upon the Motion for the Adjournment, then, of course, it is not necessary for me to pursue that subject further today. There is one Bill, against which there are four notices from the Conservative side and two from the Liberal side, and if the custom of the House allowed it there would be a larger number—I refer to the London Elections Bill. According to the precedent of the previous years, this would have been the occasion on which that Bill would have been dropped and the announcement made to that effect. No such intention has been expressed, and we ought to have an answer to this question now, or a promise of an answer on the Motion for the Adjournment. There is another matter which will not take long, but it is one which ought to be discussed in the course of the present week, or early next week. Every hon. Member is aware that two or three years after the event Parliamentary sanction is asked for for the transfer of certain items from one head of the Army Estimates to another. There is an annual general formal Motion made for the transfer of

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these items for which Parliamentary sanction has to be obtained, and for which, two or three years after, the consent of this House is obtained. The Financial Secretary to the War Office knows that last year we were informed that the matter of the purchase of guns in Germany was one which could not be discussed on any Estimates, because they were dealt with by transfers from the clothing and other Votes, but we were promised that we should have an opportunity of discussing this subject this year. I ask the right hon. Gentleman to give the House that opportunity, in the presence of the ordinary means of communication between this House and the outside world, which has been denied to Parliament for two and a half years. The transfer is an annual Motion which is made here about this period, and the House has never had any opportunity of dealing with the matter to which I have referred. We asked last year if we should be given an opportunity this year, and we were told that we should. It is that opportunity which I now press for. There is another question which certainly arises today. Not a word has been said yet about the Rules of Procedure of this House, which have been left in an extraordinary position. Some of them have been hung up and suspended in an incomplete form, others have been passed as Sessional Orders, and a few of them have been made permanent. The whole scheme is incomplete—some have been dropped, and we do not know in what condition they stand. We ought to have from the Leader of the House a general statement as to the course he proposes to ask the House to take. We have been led to think, by the words of the Government, that so far as it is necessary to deal with them in this session they would have been dealt with before the Adjournment That is evidently not going to be the case. Is that one of the purposes for which we are be brought together in that Autumn, to further consider these Rules? We should have a full explanation in regard to this question before the House rises for the recess.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: My belief is that the best form
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of words that could have been taken are those at the end of the new Rule, which prescribe that a Minister may make this Motion after notice, but without debate. I think this would have been the better form, and I am quite sure it would have been a better thing for the Leader of the House to have made this Motion every day if necessary. Then the new Rules would not have been called into question, and that would have been the best course to take. The right hon. Gentleman has, however, chosen to take this course, which has been rendered more difficult by the Amendment which has been introduced. If we are to suspend the Twelve o'Clock Rule, in order to go on sitting all night, it is rather absurd to suspend the sitting at 7.30 and resume under what, I maintain, is the absurd position that you cannot test whether you have a House or not until ten o'clock. As to the merits of this Motion, the right hon. Gentleman has truly said that this is a Motion which is usually moved at the end of the session, but this is not the end of the session, for it is only the middle of it.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I said the end of the sitting.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: The right hon. Gentleman's words were "end of the session," but he meant "end of the sitting," no doubt. But this is not the termination of the session, for it is only the middle of it. There is another point with regard to this not being the termination of the session. We should have to pass the Appropriation Bill, with the result that when the end of the session actually comes—I presume some time in December—we should not have the opportunity to which we are entitled, and which we usually have on the stages of the Appropriation Bill, of finally criticising the acts of the Government during the session. As to the action of the new Rule I must say that this Motion comes most surprisingly from the right hon. Gentle man. When the new Rules were introduced, and during the course of the discussions upon them, it was intimated that the proposed changes were to be made in order that the Government might automatically have what they were entitled to ask of the time of the House.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It was contended against the new Rules that there ought to be an opportunity of discussing the general course of business, such as existed under the old Rules, whenever the Government took the time of the House, but that, as the Government did not take the time of the House under the new Rules—it having been given—there would be no such opportunity. I always replied to that by saying that practically every Government found it desirable towards the close of the session to suspend the Twelve o'Clock Rule, and therefore an opportunity must arise on that occasion.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I always understood that if there was any merit in the new Rules, it was that they avoided the necessity of the Government coming to the House for time—that it was obtained automatically—that by means of the new Rules, instead of taking the cherry in small pieces they bolted it whole. In spite of all this, and in spite of the greater amount of work which is claimed to have been put out under the new Rules, we have the right hon. Gentleman coming down with this very drastic measure, which is usual only at the end of the session. I am sorry the First Lord has had to confess that the Rules have not automatically provided him with all the time he requires—although I think he has had a good deal of time—and that he has had to make this Motion. I do not know the form in which we should vote on the Motion; I presume it is possible for an Amendment to be moved, to omit the words the right hon. Gentleman has added. As a supporter of the Government, I do not intend to take that course myself, but somebody else may.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I desire to say a word about the form of this Motion. As originally drawn, I thought it was not a bad form, and that the omission of the interval from half-past seven to nine o'clock was part of the scheme. If it had been, I should have supported it with pleasure, because, if we recovered that hour and a half of, at present, wasted time, there would really be no necessity to sit after midnight at all. I would also submit that the words the right hon. Gentleman
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proposes to introduce are themselves not free from difficulty. Does the right hon. Gentleman mean them to include Friday? ["No."] But the Amendment as it stands does include Friday, and the effect of the Resolution will be not only that we shall sit after midnight on ordinary days, but that Friday shall be subject to a Rule which has never been applied to any day whatever hitherto—viz., that instead of rising at half-past five the House will sit until half-past-seven. I submit that that is the inevitable result of the Resolution.
MR. A. J. BALFOURwas understood to dissent.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Then I would ask you, Sir, as a matter of order, whether the Motion as now proposed would involve the suspension of the Half-past Five Rule and the continuation of the sitting until half-past seven on Friday?
*MR, SPEAKER: That is not a question of Order arising out of the Motion. It is for the House to say what would be the effect of a proposition laid before it. At present it appears to me that it would affect the Half-past Five Rule.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I thought it right that the meaning of the Resolution should be distinctly understood.
*MR. SPEAKER: I was not ruling on a question of Order. It is a matter for the House. I have only expressed an opinion.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Until I hear arguments to prove the contrary, I shall assume that opinion to be correct; and I do not see how it can possibly be wrong. The Resolution clearly requires an Amendment limiting it to the first four days of the week, and excluding Friday.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: But I want it to include Friday.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: If an Amendment is proposed to omit the reference to half-past seven, I shall support it, because it would give us the

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hour and a half before nine o'clock, and obviate the necessity for sitting after midnight.
MR. DILLON: I am surprised at the right hon. Gentleman taking credit for moving this Resolution at a later period than is customary. The one ground on which the Motion is usually made is that stated by the right hon. Gentleman himself on July 22nd last year, when he said—
"I now propose to make the Motion, which for many years has been made at this season of the year, with a view to bringing to a close as rapidly as possible the remaining business of the session."
Now, for the first time, as far as I can recollect, the Motion is made for the purpose, not "of bringing to a close the remaining business of the session," but of forcing through a certain amount of business in the middle of the session. Instead of admitting that he is making a grave departure from the practice of the House, the right hon. Gentleman actually makes it a virtue that he is bringing forward the Motion on July 28th instead of July 22nd. The Motion is usually made the occasion of a full and frank disclosure by the Leader of the House of the business he proposes to take before the conclusion of the session, and of the measures he intends to throw over. We are now asked to pass the Motion on the eve of an Adjournment, which in its essence does not differ from the Easter or the Whitsuntide recess, and we are denied the information on which alone the Motion is usually made. All the right hon. Gentleman did was to tell us the business he desired to take before August 8th. What virtue is there in the 8th? It is quite unheard of for a Minister to fix some arbitrary date, which is not the end of the session, and to propose the suspension of the Twelve o'clock Rule, in order to pass a certain amount of business by that date. With regard to this Motion being made the opportunity for discussing the general conduct of the business of the session by the Government, it is true that it was argued, when the new Rules were under consideration, that the opportunity afforded by another Motion would be taken away; but the right hon. Gentleman said that a Motion to suspend the Twelve o'Clock Rule
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would be made, and that that would give an opportunity for such a general review, at any rate once each year.
The right hon. Gentleman has stated the business he hopes to take before August 8th. In my opinion, the proposal to put down the Colonial Office Vote for an afternoon sitting, and some other vote for the evening sitting, is an outrageous farce, and a denial of a fair opportunity of discussion. Are we to be told that at a time like this, and after all these events that have occurred, and the condition of affairs in South Africa at the present moment, that the Colonial Office Vote is to be confined to one afternoon sitting? It would be more decent to closure it altogether. It is a perfectly monstrous thing that, at a time like this, when the remaining days of this portion of the session are being snapped up, and only a few remaining days for the allotted days of Supply, that we should be deliberately told beforehand, without any reference to the character of the discussions, and knowing the nature of the discussions that can be raised this year, that one afternoon is sufficient for the discussion of the Colonial Secretary's Vote? Then there are the Supplementary Estimates to be discussed, some of which will raise questions of enormous importance. To put them down for an afternoon sitting is not keeping faith with the House. The Government themselves agreed that these Supplementary Estimates are estimates for raising fresh services, and that they should not be included in the twenty-two ordinary allotted days; and I maintain that that confession on the part of the Government involved a promise that a reasonable time would be given for the discussion of these new services. Does any one contend that an afternoon sitting is sufficient for that? I say that it is absurd; and that, in my opinion, such an offer is not a fair redemption on the part of the Government of the pledge they gave during the debates on the new Rules. It is customary at this time of the session for the House, if the Government desire to make a case for additional time, to take this opportunity of surveying the conduct of the business throughout the session, and the character of the session itself.
*MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member cannot review the whole session under this Motion.
MR. DILLON: I do not intend to go into a detailed survey of the session. I submit to your ruling, Sir, but my point is that we are entitled to consider two matters. First of all, the length of the session. We were called together on 14th January, and have been sitting ever since, which is a month longer than the ordinary length of the session, and, in the second place—and this is a point directly germane to the question at issue—we are now subjected to what may fairly be described as an intolerable strain, which compels the House to meet at two o'clock. The hon. Gentleman opposite, in the course of his speech, dwelt on the enormous importance of the reform which had been achieved by the dinner interval and adduced that as an argument in favour of the new Rule. But I regard the Dinner Rule as a fraud. To those of us who dine in the House, it gives us no relief whatever, and in place of that we have an hour added to our labour in the middle of the day, which. I can assure the hon. Member, has enormously increased the strain of those who regularly attend the House. I watch with curiosity the conduct of the enthusiasts who are in favour of the new Rules. These hon. Gentlemen said that they would throw away briefs and sacrifice hundred-guinea fees in order to be present in the House; but, just as I expected, these enthusiastic patriots never or rarely appear in the House until five o'clock. The Ministers themselves who come to the House at two o'clock feel the strain enormously. This new Rule, instead of being a reform, has been a great addition to the strain and endurance to hon. Members who attend the House regularly, and therefore that is a strong argument, which should not be left out of sight at the present moment. When we are asked to sit after twelve o'clock, why should we be brought down to the House at two o'clock? In my judgment, eleven o'clock under the new rule is as bad as twelve o'clock under the old rule. I trust the right hon. Gentleman, in administering the twelve o'clock rule, will take that fact in view, and will not call
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upon hon. Members to sit up to unreasonable hours in the morning. I am strongly of opinion that, in the interests of the Education Bill itself—in which I am as much concerned as the right hon. Gentleman himself—all-night sittings on the 7th Clause at this season of the year will not be good for us. I am convinced of that, and that if this 7th Clause is driven through the House in the small hours of the morning, a cry will be given to hon. Gentlemen opposite which the right hon. Gentleman will regret.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I rise to confirm the statement of my hon. friend that this Motion is contrary, both in letter and in spirit, to all precedents for the conduct of the business of the House of Commons. As to the letter, it is a contradiction in terms to say that it is a Motion that has been made for the purpose of closing the session. It is not made for the purpose of closing the session at all. We all know what the purpose of this Motion is. It is in order to prevent the country having the opportunity of expressing its views on Clause 7 of the Bill. That is the real meaning of this Motion. It is a Motion upon an Amendment which has been before the House only a few days. The right hon. Gentleman has not even adhered to the principle or the letter of the clause that he originally had in the Bill dealing with this matter. He has sprung on the House, I may say almost by surprise, this Amendment we are now considering. The object is to force this Amendment through the House without affording proper or decent time to consider it here, or to our constituents for expressing their opinion upon it in the country. Let it be thoroughly understood that that is the meaning of this Motion. And, as has been said, it will exasperate this controversy and will lead the people outside to believe that the House of Commons has not given the time it ought to have given to this critical question—as critical question it is. I believe that we and our constituencies have never been fairly dealt with on this matter, and that the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman is really a trick to get through the critical part of the Bill at

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hours of the night when the country cannot know what arguments had been used in its favour or against it. Therefore I say it is contrary to the spirit of the conduct of the business of the House of Commons, which has never endeavoured to keep from the judgment of the country matters of the most vital importance. We are asked to do that which, in my opinion, the House of Commons has never been invited to do, and which, if hon. Members respect themselves, they ought not to consent to. I was asked the other day by a friend what I thought of the new Rules, and I said that I judged of things by results, and the result of these new Rules was an autumn session. We met a month earlier than usual, and we were told that by meeting that month sooner, we would be free at an earlier period.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I never said anything of the kind.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman tells me that, I withdraw the statement at once. At all events, I did think myself—I do not know from what source I derived the opinion—that when we met a month sooner we were not going to have an autumn session, and that with all the advantages of the new Rules, the Government were to have more time than ever formerly for the business of the House. As my hon. friend has asked, what has meeting an hour earlier done to get through with the business of the House sooner? It has done nothing at all. I agree with what has been said that it is a great inconvenience to Members of the House—this early meeting. It has been productive of no good results at all. Everybody knows that the attendance is not as numerous as it used to be with the former hours. For these reasons, I think that, in the interests of fair debate, and, above all, in the interests of our constituents, the questions involved in Clause 7 of the Bill should be thoroughly understood in the country, and that they should not be treated in the manner proposed and forced through the House of Commons. What has been the practice under the new Rules? We know that the attendance in the House at two o'clock is not so numerous as it used to be at three o'clock, and the discussions are merely fragmentary. The right hon. Gentleman said that he had treated the House very
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fairly in regard to the Foreign Office Vote, the Army Vote, and the Navy Vote. We are this week to have the Colonial Vote. That Vote, of all Votes this session, is the most important of all. Under this Vote the Colonial conferences, South Africa, and everything else—matters of the most vital importance to this country—are dealt with, and yet, for the purpose of forcing Clause 7 of the Education Bill through the House, it is to have a morning sitting devoted to it. Well, I say that that is not treating the House of Commons fairly. It has never been so dealt with in matters of great consequence, and to endeavour within a few hours to cram through the Colonial Vote is a thing entirely contrary to the ordinary practice of Parliament, and I think we ought to resist the attempt to treat a matter of such importance in that way. The new Rules seem not to be imprinted very strongly on the memory of; the First Lord. His proposal is entirely inconsistent with the new Rules. He makes an Amendment which, in your opinion, is inconsistent with the new Rules.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I think you ought to address that remark to the Speaker. The Speaker's opinion is that it will include Friday. Are we to sit on after twelve o'clock midnight on Friday? Really, we want a little information on this matter, Are the new Rules going to form part of the business of the autumn sitting? The attempt to treat this, which is the middle, and not the end of the session, on the conditions which are only applicable to the end of the session, is a thing entirely contrary to Parliamentary precedent and practice; and I feel that, for every reason, we ought to resist this Motion, which, as I have said, is not fair to the House, and is not presenting the House in the light in which it ought to be presented to the country. It will be felt that a most critical part of the Education Bill is being—I was going to use the phrase—smuggled through the House of Commons, without the opportunity of having daylight thrown upon it, after twelve o'clock. This question is to be handled, and the country is not to be

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allowed the opportunity of considering the reasonable Amendments brought forward by hon. Members.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The speech of the right hon. Gentleman was filled with a great many statements for which there seems to be very little authority. He quite mistakes the difficulty that has arisen on the question of form. It may be that I failed to understand what the right hon. Gentleman dropped in the course of his speech, and that may have caused some misunderstanding between him and me. It is intended that we shall sit at present in two sittings — afternoon and evening — four days a week. During these days the sittings shall not be interrupted by the twelve o'clock rule. As regards Friday, the same course shall be adopted as was often adopted as regards Wednesday, namely, that half-past five should not see the termination of our sittings. I do not anticipate that we shall be obliged to sit to a very late hour on Friday on that account, but it is to be anticipated that we shall sit on Friday, as on Wednesday under similar circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman and some other hon. Gentlemen were extremely indignant with the Government for allocating an afternoon sitting to the discussion of the Colonial Vote, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire fell into a blunder for which the hon. Member for East Mayo was responsible. The right hon. Gentleman appeared to think that we were going to sacrifice a full discussion on the Colonial Vote in order to get more time for the Education Bill. That is a very delusive idea. The right hon. Gentleman has forgotten what the Supply Rule is. The time under the Supply Rule may have been improperly divided between the different claims upon it, but it is one of the great advantages of that Rule that there never can be a question raised under it of sacrificing discussion in Supply for the discussion of controversial bills. As regards the allocation of an afternoon sitting to the Colonial Vote, the House knows the unfortunate reason which has caused the Vote to be so long delayed. While I frankly admit that I have given the evening sitting to the Office of Works Vote in consequence of an earnest demand made upon me, I think
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there is a collateral advantage. The considerable strain on my right hon. friend in dealing with the Vote will not be prolonged if it is disposed of at the afternoon sitting. That is not my motive, but, nevertheless, that is the effect. Of course, if it is made clear that the leaders of the Opposition disapprove of this allocation of time, I should greatly regret it, but I should feel bound to do what I could to meet their views.
I pass from that—which has really no immediate connection with the Vote before us—to the question raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean. He has asked me various questions as to the remaining business of the session. He asked particularly about the London Elections Bill and the new Rules. As regards the London Elections Bill, I do not think it is very probable that we shall hear more about it in the course of the present session. It was brought in by my right hon. friend the President of the Local Government Board, in obedience to a request from both sides of the House, as a non-controversial measure. It has proved to be a very controversial measure. Evidently those in favour of it have run away from their guns, or they do not represent the great body of opinion they claimed to represent. In any case, I do not propose to expend time upon it. As to the Rules of Procedure, it is perfectly evident to the House that we must make Standing Orders of those Rules which at present are only in the transitory phase of being Sessional Orders. Whether any other Standing Orders ought or ought not to be passed I do not now say, but I do not think it will be possible to complete the whole programme of the alteration of our Rules which I proposed at the beginning of the year.
Then I come to the larger question raised by the Leader of the Opposition, and enforced by the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down. I confess that I listened to their speeches with absolute amazement. One of the criticisms passed upon me was that this was not the end of the session, but only the end of this part of the session. That is, of course, perfectly true. It is desirable that we should separate by August 8th, and the amount of business I ask the House to get through

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by that date is not an excessive amount. I think that is some reason to ask that the twelve o'clock rule be suspended in order that the House may prorogate on August 8th. I have now only asked that there should be an adjournment. I see no difference in principle at all. When the right hon. Gentleman opposite says he never remembers such a thing being done, I think he ought to cast his mind back to the methods of operation which they themselves practised. Does the right hon. Gentleman remember what he did over the Home Rule Bill? These two right hon. Gentlemen come down here and say, because we talk of finishing before August 8th Clause 7, on which we have already spent two whole Parliamentary days, that we are doing something in the dark; and we are threatened with something—I know not what—from the country because we legislate after twelve o'clock on a subject which greatly interests them. I suppose the people of the country were greatly interested in the Home Rule Bill, and I suppose that deserved to be discussed. The right hon. Gentleman first discussed it and then threw it into compartments, or else he threw it into compartments and then discussed it. Whichever it was, the then Leader of the House moved the suspension of the twelve o'clock rule before the separation for the holidays in the autumn, and that Motion included not merely the days intervening between the Motion and the holidays, but it included the whole of the autumn session. These are the people who comedown and, because I venture to suggest that for ten days it would be convenient that the twelve o'clock rule should be suspended, say that the Constitution is in danger and that I am endeavouring to thrust controversial legislation through the House in the small hours of the morning. The suggestion, if I may say so respectfully, looking to the Gentlemen who made it, is almost more than absurd. It is verging on the indecent.
One more observation fell from the Leader of the Opposition. He said the Government had deliberately tried to introduce under Clause 7 of the Education Bill controversies about the management of schools which came under Clause 8. I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that that is a complete
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illusion. It was because his friends sitting next him put down long Amendments, and it became perfectly clear that we could not, do what we would, avoid the whole controversy on Clause 7 that we have adopted the course we have adopted, and which I think is really for the convenience of the House. I have been asked whether we will have all night sittings over Clause 7. I hope we shall not have all-night sittings over anything, but there must be reason and moderation in all those concerned in our discussions. Observe the contradictory accusations made against us. We have been told that the session is too long. We have been told that we have met too early and that we are continuing too late. At the same time we are told that we are burking discussion and that we have asked the House to consider too many questions in the course of the session. If the House is incapable of dealing with an Education Bill of twenty clauses and to alter the Rules, it has confessed its own impotence. I have endeavoured to make the discussion as brief as I could. I have certainly not endeavoured to prolong it by irritating remarks. Perhaps have not used the closure sufficiently often, but when I have used it I have been reproached by hon. Gentlemen opposite for doing so, and they have indicated to me that we should have got on much better without it. But you cannot have it both ways. The House must remember that the number of days at our disposal is a limited quantity, and if the Government do not squeeze in too big a programme of business, then it rests with the House to deal with the matter according to their own judgment. No such accusation can be brought against us, and if I ask the House to finish Clause 7 of the Education Bill before we separate in August, even the most vigorous of our opponents, I think, will have to admit that we are not making any unreasonable demand.
MR. CORRIE GRANT: I want to bring to an issue the differences between this side of the House and the other side. We desire to exclude the Education Bill and the Water Bill from the Motion which the right hon. Gentleman has moved. The

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effect of this course would be that we should discuss the Education Bill when it is set down, and also the Water Bill, until twelve o'clock, and then we should pass to the other business which the right hon. Gentleman says it is necessary to pass in order to finish up the session. I have been looking at the Amendments on the Paper to the Education Bill. There are 131 notices on the Paper to Clause 7. Of these thirty-nine are obvious duplicates, and that leaves ninety-two for discussion, and of course some of those are mere consequential Amendments. These are what the hon. Gentleman is asking us to dispose of in the early hours of the morning, when the House is tired out, and when the discussions are not reported; and he is aiming to keep the country in the dark as to what is being done by him and his Government in the House of Commons. Is there any justification for this course? There have been sixteen sittings devoted to the Education Bill. The First Lord of the Treasury has referred to the Home Rule Bill, but he could have found a much better parallel in the Parish Councils Bill. In a letter which appeared in The Times of January 8th, 1894, writing about the Guardians Clause, which was merely a proposition to give the people some voice in the appointment of Guardians, the right hon. Gentleman said—
"It was fought, line for line, for seven days, and was finally debated and decided against as a whole."
If the right hon. Gentleman took seven days to fight one clause of a Bill which he originally described as non-contentious, how many days ought he now to allow for a clause dealing with education, which raises questions of vital moment to the country, and which is endeavouring to reverse a policy which has been approved of by the people for nearly thirty years? [Ministerial cries of "No, No."] Probably those hon. Members who cried out "No, no," represented constituencies where there are no School Boards. What was the answer which the right hon. Gentleman got at Bury?
*MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! It must be obvious to the hon. Member that it is not in order to discuss the Bury election.
*MR. CORRIE GRANT: I was endeavouring to compare the time occupied upon the discussion of this Clause with the time occupied in the discussion of two minor clauses of the Parish Councils Bill. On the Charities Clause the right hon. Gentleman and his friends took six days, and on that and the Guardians Clause alone they took almost as much time as this House has taken over seven important clauses of this Education Bill. Where is the justification for forcing us to discuss the Education Bill in the small hours of the morning? The right hon. Gentleman said they were "threatened with something in the dark in the country." It is not in the dark. We have just had an election at Clitheroe, and there the right hon. Gentleman has not dared to put a candidate in the field. There is an election pending in North Leeds, where the right hon. Gentleman has ventured to put a candidate in the field; but does anybody call him a candidate? [Cries of "Question, question!"] The answer he will get from Leeds will justify the answer which came from Bury. The right hon. Gentleman talks about threats from the country—
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I never talked about threats from the country.
*MR. CORRIE GRANT: The right hon. Gentleman's words were "threatened with something in the dark in the country."
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I was quoting the words of the right hon. Gentleman opposite.
*MR. CORRIE GRANT: The right hon. Gentleman is now adopting, as a reason for pressing this forward, the argument that there were threats made to him from this side of the House as to what would happen in the country. The right hon. Gentleman is now engaged in the thankless task of forming a Ministry. [Cries of "Question, question !"]
*MR. SPEAKER: That is not a matter which is open for discussion now.
*MR. CORRIE GRANT: I beg to move my Amendment.
Amendment proposed— "After the first word 'Business,' to insert the words 'with the exception of the Education (England and Wales) Bill and the London Water (re-committed) Bill.' "—(Mr. Corrie Grant.)
Question proposed— "That those words be there inserted."
MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I rise to support the Amendment of my hon. friend. If the right hon. Gentleman had just moved to clear up the business at the end of the session there would have been no real resistance, because that would have been perfectly fair. The right hon. Gentleman, however, proposes to utilise this Motion in order to dispose of a controversial Clause in a Bill, not one-third of which is through the House of Commons. The Home Rule Bill is not a precedent, because it was disposed of before the Ministry moved this Motion at all. My recollection is that the Home Rule Bill was not discussed under the pressure of the suspension of the twelve o'clock Rule at all. The Bill had been disposed of when the Ministry moved this Motion for the purpose of clearing up Supply and two or three Departmental Bills which remained undiscussed. I do not think the Government suspended the twelve o'clock Rule to discuss any part of the Parish Councils Bill. Supposing it had been the Home Rule Bill, and the Government had got to the 6th, 7th, or 8thClause, and intended to dispose of the rest of the Bill in an autumn session? I know what the right hon. Gentleman would have said. The Government did not then suspend the Rule to dispose of any controversial Bill at all. Why does the right hon. Gentleman not stick to his autumn session and not utilise exceptional measures. This is the most complicated, important, and critical Clause in the whole Bill, and if there is a Clause which ought to be discussed fully, it is this one. It is not merely details of machinery, but the Clause itself is full of great, important and crucial principles, and, according to the way we decide them, and the judgment we pass upon them, will depend the whole success or otherwise of this Bill in the country. Is it desirable or fair that the right hon. Gentleman should insist upon discussing
1394
this Clause after twelve o'clock? Today there will be a discussion on a Motion for the adjournment on a very important issue which will throw the discussion on Clause 7 far into the night. Does the right hon. Gentleman want to discuss this Clause in the light of day or in darkness? Does he prefer darkness to light, because his deeds are evil? In order that this momentous Clause may be discussed, the right hon. Gentleman wishes to confine discussion on other Bills. When was the Appropriation Bill ever disposed of at a morning sitting, especially in a year in which there has been the largest expenditure in our living memory, viz., £200,000,000? In order to get more time for his Education Bill, the right hon. Gentleman now proposes to discuss that huge expenditure during a morning sitting. I think that is unfair. I hope the right hon. Gentleman will reconsider his decision, and treat this Parliament as the late Liberal Administration treated the then Parliament, and keep the time after twelve o'clock, not for the discussion of important measures, but to sweep up the odds and ends of the session.
MR. LOUGHsaid he thought the right hon. Gentleman would acknowledge that the Amendment was reasonable. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would clear up a point which was still doubtful with regard to the London Water Bill. He had gathered from the right hon. Gentleman's statement that no more would be heard of that measure until the autumn session. It was a very difficult Bill to discuss; and there were only a few hon. Members who represented what he believed was the predominant feeling of London regarding it. There was a further reason why the Amendment should be favourably entertained. Apart from the two contentious Bills covered by the Amendment, there was also a Bill with reference to a tramway on the Embankment. The Lords' Amendments to that measure would have to be considered. Then, again, a deputation was to wait on him regarding two Bills in reference to the police. Of the twenty-three Bills which had been asterisked as Government measures, the right hon. Gentleman had only mentioned

1395
four or five. Surely the House ought now to know what the intentions of the Government were with regard to all these measures, and unless the Opposition was met in a reasonable spirit great confusion would result, and business would not be got through as the right hon. Gentleman would wish. There was a slight contention between the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for King's Lynn as to what the right hon. Gentleman said during the debate on the Supply Rule with reference to business after twelve o'clock. On the 30th of April—
*MR. SPEAKER: Order, order ! The whole Resolution is not now before the House.
MR. LOUGHsaid he would bow to the ruling of Mr. Speaker; but the meaning of the Amendment was that the twelve o'clock Rule at the end of the session should only be suspended to carry through necessary business, which the Government considered should be passed before the adjournment. The contention of his hon. friend was that the right hon. Gentleman was now using the suspension of the Rule in order to get on with two measures which he had already decided should not be closed during the present period of the session. Their objection was that the right hon. Gentleman was not fulfilling the promise he gave. On the 30th April, during the discussion on the Supply Closure Rule, the right hon. Gentleman accepted an Amendment enabling this business to be taken on the last two Supply nights between ten o'clock and midnight, which indicated that he did not assume that the House would sit after midnight. The right hon. Gentleman also stated that the suspension of the twelve o'clock Rule at the end of the session would only be used to carry through Bills which the Government had declared it was absolutely necessary to finish before the House separated. A new precedent was now proposed to be set up, and he thought the right hon. Gentleman would facilitate matters generally by accepting the Amendment.
SIR GEORGE NEWNESsaid that the reason they objected
1396
to the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman was that they regarded Clause 7 as a vital part of the Education Bill, because when the right hon. Gentleman had got Clause 7 he would have got his Bill. Why could not the right hon. Gentleman wait until the autumn session and have the matter thoroughly discussed? It was not a case of now or never. The right hon. Gentleman would have ample opportunities during the autumn session; but meantime he ought to give the country a chance of thinking over the matter. The Government were not elected on an education mandate. They were elected on the idea that a vote given to the Liberals was a vote given to the Boers. The Government had received no mandate to pass the Education Bill, and, therefore, he strongly and earnestly protested against their getting through a most vital part of that measure in the dead of night when the proceedings could not be reported, and when, consequently, the country would not be able to judge for itself.
MR. DALZIELsaid that they were all agreed, that, if possible, the House should rise on the 8th of August. The object of the Amendment was merely to give the House more time to discuss the other measures which the right hon. Gentleman said it was desirable to pass. There was one Bill which remained to be considered. It was perhaps the most Protectionist measure ever brought before the House of Commons, although it appeared under the seductive title of the Food and Drugs Act Amendment Bill. Already there were five pages of Amendments on the Paper regarding it, most of them being in the names of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The Second Reading was taken by a mere fluke after midnight; and now at the end of the session they were asked to dispose of a measure which would require two or three days consideration. The Agents General of the most important Colonies had protested against the Bill; and in the closing days of the session they were asked to discuss five pages of Amendments to a measure regarding which not a word of explanation had been given. The most important part of the Bill would not come into operation until January 1st, 1904; and it was absurd to take up valuable time

1397
in discussing it now. It was an undigested measure which had not been properly considered: and it might well be postponed until the autumn. Even the supporters of the Bill would welcome its postponement, as nothing would be gained by persisting in it at present.
MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he did not desire to say anything about the Education Bill; but he desired to enter a protest in connection with the London Water Bill. Up to the present, the Bill had only been discussed on two short Parliamentary days; and now the right hon. Gentleman proposed the suspension of the twelve o'clock Rule in order that it might be taken at a late hour of the night. The right hon. Gentleman in a speech he delivered outside the House, said that hon. Members who opposed the Water Bill were merely actuated by a desire to impede the Education Bill; but he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that there was no foundation for the statement. His hon. friends and himself believed that the Water Bill was a thoroughly bad Bill; and their opposition to it had nothing to do with the Education Bill. He did not think it was fair to ask the House, on the third occasion of this Bill being taken, to suspend the ordinary Rule, and, therefore, in regard to the London Water Bill, he appealed to the right hon. Gentleman, if he intended to take it again this session, to take it under the ordinary Rules of the House.
SIR EDWARD STRACHEYpointed out that although the Food and Drugs Bill might be objected to on the ground that it was Protectionist, all the Agricultural Members of the House could assure the right hon. Gentleman it was only Protectionist in the sense that its object was to protect the working classes from adulterated foods. The Amendments put upon the Paper were, with, one exception, not hostile, but were placed upon the Paper to improve the measure, and there was no doubt, if the Government could give
a small amount of time, the Bill would pass before the House rose. He supported the Amendment.
*SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid he should vote for the Amendment, because he did not think the effort of the right hon. Gentleman to force through this Clause was wisely directed. The right hon. Gentleman had cited as a precedent for the Motion he had made the action taken by a Liberal Government on the Home Rule Bill, but there was a great difference between the two cases. In the case of the Home Rule Bill of 1893 there was an irreconcilable difference of opinion between the two sides of the House with regard to the objects of that Bill. On this occasion there was no such irreconciliable difference. There was the strongest disposition on the part of hon. Members on the Unionist side of the House to meet hon. Members on the Liberal side, and he thought if the right hon. Gentleman used the Party screw to force through the 7th Clause, he would be unwise to the last degree. It would be disastrous to the country, and would bring woe to the right hon. Gentleman's supporters. There was not a Unionist Member who was not elected by Nonconformists votes, and they would lose all the votes of the Nonconformists at the next election if this Bill was forced through in its present shape. He believed the action of the right hon. Gentleman would also offend the feeling of a vast number of Churchmen in this country, especially Evangelical Churchmen. He regretted the action of the right hon. Gentleman from the bottom of his heart. The Clause which touched the country most closely was to be driven through with the Party force. He wanted peace on this question, and that it should be settled, in the right hon. Gentleman's own words, "in a spirit of Christian charity."
(4.28.) Question put.
The House divided: —Ayes, 149: Noes, 209. (Division List No. 317.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Asher, Alexander

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Bell, Richard

Allen, Charles P (Gloue, Stroud

Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

Black, Alexander William

Boland, John

Hayden, John Patrick

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Broadhurst, Henry

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

Pickard, Benjamin

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Helme, Norval Watson

Price, Robert John

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

Priestley, Arthur

Burke, E. Haviland-

Horniman, Frederick John

Reddy, M.

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Caldwell, James

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Rickett, J. Compton

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Carew, James Laurence

Jordan, Jeremiah

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Cawley, Frederick

Joyce, Michael

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Charming, Francis Allston

Labouchere, Henry

Roche, John

Clancy, John Joseph

Langley, Batty

Runciman, Walter

Cogan, Denis J.

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Schwann, Charles E.

Craig, Robert Hunter

Leamy, Edmund

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh

Crean, Eugene

Leese, SirJoseph F.(Accrington

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Dalziel, James Henry

Levy, Maurice

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Lewis, John Herbert

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Lloyd-George, David

Soares, Ernest J.

Delany, William

Lough, Thomas

Strachey, Sir Edward

Devlin, Joseph

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Sullivan, Donal

Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Dillon, John

M'Kenna, Reginald

Tennant, Harold John

Donelan, Captain A.

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Doogan, P. C.

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark.

Mather, Sir William

Thomas F. Freeman (Hastings

Duffy, William J.

Mooney, John J.

Thomas, J.A. Glam'rg'n-Gower

Dunn, Sir William

Moss, Samuel

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Edwards, Frank

Murnaghan, George

Tully, Jasper

Emmott, Alfred

Murphy, John

Ure, Alexander

Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne

Newnes, Sir George

Wallace, Robert

Farrell, James Patrick

Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Fenwick, Charles

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Ffrench, Peter

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork

White, George (Norfolk)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Fuller, J. M. F.

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Gilhooly, James

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

Goddard, Daniel Ford

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

Grant, Corrie

O'Malley, William

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. Hudd'rsf'd

Gray, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berw'k)

O'Mara, James

Yoxall, James Henry

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Hammond, John

Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William

Paulton, James Mellor

Mr. William M'Arthur

Harwood, George

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

and Mr. Causton.

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F.

Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis)

Crossley, Sir Saville

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

Davenport, Wm. Bromley-

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Brown Alex'nder H. (Shropsh.)

Dickson, Charles Scott

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Carlile, William Walter

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E.

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Balcarres, Lord

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Dyke, Rt. Hon Sir William Hart

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Chapman, Edward

Faber, George Denison (York)

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Charrington, Spencer

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

Banbury, Frederick George

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Bartley, George C. T.

Coddingson, Sir William

Finch, George H.

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Fisher, William Hayes

Beresford, Lord Chas. William

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

Bignold, Arthur

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Bond, Edward

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Flower, Ernest

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Cranborne, Lord

Forster, Henry William

Bousfield, William Robert

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

1400

1401

Gardner, Ernest

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Core, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Line.)

Lowe Francis William

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (I. of Wight)

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Lucas. Regd. J. (Portsmouth)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Greene, Sir E W (B'rySEdm'nds

Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Grenfell, William Henry

Macdona, John Cumming

Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

Greville. Hon. Ronald

Maconochie, A. W.

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Manners, Lord Cecil

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Massey-Main waring, Hn. W. F.

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

Maxwell, W. J H (Dumfriesshire

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Morgan, David J.(Walth'stow)

Thornton, Percy M.

Heaton, John Henniker

Morrell, George Herbert

Tollemache, Henry James

Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

Morrison, James Archibald

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E

Morton, ArthurH. A. (Deptford

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Hope, J. E. (Sheffield, Brightside

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (B'te

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Valentia, Viscount

Hoult, Joseph

Myers, William Henry

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Howard, John (Kent Faversham

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

Nicholson, William Graham

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C. E (Taunton

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Parker, Sir Gilbert

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

Peel, Hon. Wm. R. Wellesley

Whiteley, H. Ashton und. Lyne

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Pierpoint, Robert

Williams, Rt Hn. J Powell (Birm.

Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Pretyman, Ernest George

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Kenyon, Hon Geo. T. (Denbigh.

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Wills, Sir Frederick

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)

Purvis, Robert

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Knowles, Lees

Pym, C. Guy

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Rankin, Sir James

Wodehouse, Rt Hon. E. R. (Bath

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th)

Rattigan, Sir William Henry

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Reid, James (Greenock)

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Lawson, John Grant

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Lee Arthur H (Hants., Fareh'm

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Legge, Col. Hon Heneage

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Sir William Walrond and

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Mr. Anstruther

Main Question again proposed.
MR. FENWICKasked whether he would be in order in moving to omit the words "except half-past seven in the afternoon.
*MR. SPEAKERsaid the Amendment (itself would not be out of order. Something more, however, would be required in order to make the Amendment work satisfactorily with the Rules of the House, because they provided that at nine o'clock there should be an evening sitting, and that at that hour, under certain conditions, certain business should be taken.
MR. A. J BALFOUR: As I under-stood your ruling, this Amendment, if
1402
introduced by itself, would produce hopeless confusion in regard to other Orders under which the House does its business. It would be impossible to know when private business, Motions: for the adjournment of the House, and so forth, would come on. Did I under-stand you to rule that we must have a; general scheme before us before the hon. Member moved his Amendment?
*MR. SPEAKER: What I said was that subsequent Amendments would be necessary to make the Amendment work satisfactorily, but I do not think that that makes the present proposal out of order.
*MR. FENWICKsaid the Prime Minister had distinctly stated that his object in moving the suspension of

1403
the Twelve o'Clock Rule was to secure more time for the discussion of Clause 7 of the Education Bill. No one had suggested, nor could anyone honestly suggest, that there had been anything like obstruction to the measure. Clause 7 was the most important Clause in the Bill. But when we remember that Clauses 13 and 19of the Parish Councils Bill—neither of which raised points of anything like such vital importance—occupied six and seven days respectively, it was rather unreasonable to say that this Clause should have only two more Parliamentary days. Since its original introduction the Clause had been twice re-cast by the Prime Minister himself, and to expect to get such a vital Clause through in two more days was altogether unreasonable. If, however, the Clause; was to be pushed through, he desired the House to have as much time as possible for its consideration, and that was his object in moving the Amendment. As was the case with many other Members, circumstances compelled him to remain on the premises from two o'clock until the rising of the House at midnight, and it was a considerable hardship to be compelled to sit twiddling one's thumbs during the hour and a half before 7.30 and nine o'clock, while other hon. Members were enjoying themselves away from the House. If the Amendment were accepted, the House would sit continuously as they used to do before the introduction of the new Rules, and he would much rather they did that than sit an hour and a half after midnight. All experience went to prove that it was in the early hours of the morning that debates were least successful, and that after ten or eleven o'clock at night it was hopeless for any Government to expect to make progress with a controversial measure. In order, therefore, to enable the right hon. Gentleman to utilise the time of the House to the best possible advantage, he begged to move.
Amendment proposed,
To leave out the words "except at half-past Seven of the clock in the afternoon."— (Mr. Fenwick.)
Question proposed,
"That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
*MR. JOSEPH WALTONsaid that it appeared to him that amongst the questions they had to discuss before the adjournment there were some of extreme importance, and the time proposed to be allocated to them was wholly insufficient. Take, for instance, the Colonial Office Vote. Instead of that discussion terminating at 7.30 it might very well go on until nine o'clock. Then there was the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill, which he understood would be taken at the morning sitting on Wednesday week. Having regard to the fact that the Foreign Office Vote debate was cut short this year, and that the House did not receive information upon many important points in relation to foreign affairs, which he thought hon. Members were entitled to, have, if this Amendment were agreed to it would give them an hour and a half extra time on the Appropriation Bill to obtain that explanation of important questions involved in these Votes which the House was entitled to. The same remarks would apply to the two days upon which the Educational Bill was to be taken. Clause 7 was the crux of the whole Bill.
*MR. SPEAKER: I think the hon. Member is going beyond this Amendment.
*MR. JOSEPH WALTONsaid he would merely content himself by saying that it was important that they should have this additional time. When the Procedure Rules were passed, the distinct impression left on their minds was that when the House met at two o'clock in the afternoon, the necessity for all-night sittings would be obviated, and it was under that belief that many of them had agreed to the proposal that the House-should meet an hour earlier. It would; appear, however, that this intention or promise, was not to be fulfilled, and that a strain was to be put on them which would become perfectly intolerable. He should himself infinitely prefer to forego the usual dinner interval of an hour and a half during the next ten days rather than to sit an hour and a half after twelve o'clock. The right

1405
hon. Gentleman's Motion did not indicate clearly what he intended or what he meant.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Yes it does, it is quite clear.
*MR. JOSEPH WALTONsaid the Motion provided—
"That, until the rising of the House on August 8th, Government business be not interrupted, except at half past seven o'clock, under the provisions of any Standing Order regulating the sittings of the House."
The only Standing Order was that which provided that the sitting should be suspended on the first four days of the week at 7–30 till nine. He begged to support the Amendment of his hon. friend.
MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent, being of opinion that the House was prepared shortly to come to a decision.
Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONcomplained of the position in which the House had been put by the want of forethought shown by the right hon.
Gentleman. The present Amendment would restore the Motion of the First Lord to the form in which it had been on the Order Paper for some days, and yet the right hon. Gentleman had suggested that to accept the Amendment would involve the House in hopeless confusion. In other words, the right hon. Gentleman confessed that his own Motion, which he persevered in for days, would involve the House in hopeless confusion, but he thought the right hon. Gentleman was wrong in that contention. When his hon. friend proposed to do what the Prime Minister was obliged to do, instead of giving any answer and even before waiting until the question was put, the right hon. Gentleman rose in his place to move the closure. He did not think he need say a word more. [Cries of "Hear, hear."]
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Hear, hear.
MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid those interruptions exhibited the hopeless confusion which the Government were in. There was somebody who ought to say a word more and that was the author of the original Motion.
(5.8.) Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes 215; Noes,. 155. (Division List No. 318.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Bull, William James

Dorington, Rt Hon. Sir J. E.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Carlile, William Walter

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Dyke, Rt, Hn. Sir William Hart

Arnold-Forster. Hugh O.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Faber, George Denison (York)

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Fellowes. Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor'er

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J(Manc'r

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Chapman, Edward

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Charrington, Spencer

Finch, George H.

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Coddington, Sir William

Fisher, William Hayes

Banbury, Frederick George

Coghill, Douglas Harry

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

Bartley, George C. T.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Flower, Ernest

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Forster, Henry William

Beresford, Lord CharlesWilli'm

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

Bignold, Arthur

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W

Bigwood, James

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Gardner, Ernest

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Crossley, Sir Savile

Godson Sir Augustus Frederick

Bond, Edward

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc.)

Bousfield, William Robert

Davenport, William Bromley-

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Dickson, Charles Scott

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Brown, Alexander H.(Shropsh.

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Greene, Sir E W (B'rySEdm'nds.

Grenfell, William Henry

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Macdona, John Cumming

Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight

Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Mid'x

Maconochie, A. W.

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd'nd'rry

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Manners, Lord Cecil

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Smith, AbelH. (Hertford, East)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.)

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Heath, Arthur Howard Hanley

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Heaton, John Henniker

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

Sturt, Hon Humphry Napier

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Morgan, David J.(W'lth'mst'w

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Morrell, George Herbert

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.

Hoult, Joseph

Morrison, James Archibald

Thornton, Percy M.

Howard, Jno. (Kent, Faversham

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham

Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Myers, William Henry

Valentia, Viscount

Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

Vincent, Col Sir C. E H (Sheffield

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Nicholson, William Graham

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Warde, Col. C. E.

Jessel, CaptainHerbert Morton

Parker, Sir Gilbert

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Parkes, Ebenezer

Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

Pierpont, Robert

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne

Knowles, Lees

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Williams, Rt Hn J Pow'll-(Birm)

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Pretyman, Ernest George

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

Purvis, Robert

Wills, Sir Frederick

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Pym, C. Guy

Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.)

Lawson, John Grant

Rankin, Sir James

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Lee, Arthur H(Hants., Fareham

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R.(Bath)

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Rattigan, Sir William Henry

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Reid, James (Greenock)

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Round, Rt. Hon. James

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Lowe, Francis William

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Sir William Walrond and

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Mr. Anstruther.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Grant, Corrie

Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

Delany, William

Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

Asher, Alexander

Delvin, Joseph

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Haldane, Rt. Hon. Sir Richd. B.

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Hammond, John

Bell, Richard

Dillon, John

Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

Black, Alexander William

Donelan, Captain A.

Harwood, George

Boland, John

Doogan, P. C.

Hayden, John Patrick

Broadhuist, Henry

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Duffy, William J.

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Duncan, J. Hastings

Helme Norval Watson

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Dunn, Sir William

Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

Burke, E. Haviland-

Edwards, Frank

Horniman, Frederick John

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Emmott, Alfred

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Caldwell, James

Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst'ne

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Jacoby, James Alfred

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Farrell, James Patrick

Jameson, Major J. Eustace

Carew, James Lawrence

Fenwick, Charles

Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire

Cawley, Frederick

Ffrench, Peter

Jordan, Jeremiah

Channing, Francis Allston

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Joyce, Michael

Clancy, John Joseph

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Labouchere, Henry

Cogan, Denis J.

Flynn, James Christopher

Langley, Batty

Craig, Robert Hunter

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Crean, Eugene

Fuller, J. M. F.

Leamy, Edmund

Dalziel, James Henry

Gilhooly, James

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

1408

1409

Levy, Maurice

Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Lewis, John Herbert

Paulton, James Mellor

Tennant, Harold John

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Pickard, Benjamin

Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

M'Kenna, Reginald

Power, Patrick Joseph

Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Price, Robert John

Toulmin, George

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Priestley, Arthur

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Mather, Sir William

Reddy, M.

Tully, Jasper

Mooney, John J.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Ure, Alexander

Moss, Samuel

Redmond, William (Clare)

Wallace, Robert

Murnaghan, George

Rickett, J. Compton

Walton, Joseph (Barnesley)

Murphy, John

Rigg, Richard

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Newnes, Sir George

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

White, George (Norfolk)

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Roche, John

Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

Runciman, Walter

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Schwann, Charles E.

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

O'Donnell, John (Mayo. S.)

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Yoxall, James Henry

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

O'Malley, William

Soares, Ernest J.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

O'Mara, James

Strachey, Sir Edward

Mr. William M'Arthur

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Sullivan, Donal

and Mr. Causton.

(5.20.) Main Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes, 216; Noes, 158. (Division List No. 319.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Greene, Sir E W (B'rySEdm'nds

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Grenfell, William Henry

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Colomb. Sir John Chas. Ready

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Hamilton, Rt Hn Ld G (Midd'x

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'derry

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm.

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Crossley, Sir Savile

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Banbury, Frederick George

Davenport, William Bromley-

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

Bartley, George C. T.

Dickson, Charles Scott

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Heaton, John Henniker

Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Henderson, Sir Alexander

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

Beresford, Lord Chas. William

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

Bignold, Arthur

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Bigwood, James

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Faber, George Denison (York

Hoult, Joseph

Bond, Edward

Fellowes Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Howard, John (Kent, F'versh'm

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

Howard, J. (Mid. Tottenham)

Bousfield, William Robert

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Hozier. Hn. James Henry Cecil

Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis

Finch, George H.

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

Fisher, William Hayes

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

Bull, William James

FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

Carlile, William Walter

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

Flower, Ernest

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Forster, Henry William

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Foster, Sir Michael (Load. Univ.

Knowles, Lees

Chamberlain, J Austen (Wore'r

Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W

Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

Chapman, Edward

Gardner, Ernest

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

Charrington, Spencer

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Line.

Lawson, John Grant

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Lee, Arthur H(Hants., Fareham

Coddington, Sir William

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Parker, Sir Gilbert

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Lock-wood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Parkes, Ebenezer

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Talbot, Rt, Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ

Long, Col, Charles W. (Evesham.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Thornton, Percy M.

Long, Rt, Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Pretyman, Ernest George

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Lowe, Francis William

Purvis, Robert

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

Pym, C. Guy

Valentia, Viscount

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

Rankin, Sir James

Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield

Lucas, Reginald. J. (Portsmouth

Rasch, Major Frederick Carne

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Macartney Rt Hn W G Ellison

Rattigan, Sir William Henry

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Macdona, John Cumming

Reid, James (Greenock)

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Maconochie. A. W.

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Welby, Lt.-Col A. C. E(Taunton

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen

Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

Manners, Lord Cecil

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Whiteley, H. (Asht'n und Lyne

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Bir.

Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Middlemore, John Throgm'ton

Round, Rt. Hon. James

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Wills, Sir Frederick

Milvain, Thomas

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Wodehouse, Rt, Hn. E. R. (Bath)

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Morgan, David. J (Walthamst'w

Seely, Maj J E B (Isle of Wight

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Morrell, George Herbert

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Morrison, James Archibald

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Morton, Arthur H A (Deptford

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

Myers, William Henry

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

Sir William Walrond and

Nicholson, William Graham

Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

Mr. Anstruther.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Duncan, J. Hastings

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Dunn, Sir William

Leamy, Edmund

Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

Edwards, Frank

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accri'ton

Asher, Alexander

Emmott, Alfred

Levy, Maurice

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst.

Lewis, John Herbert

Atherley-Jones, L.

Farqubarson, Dr. Robert

Lough, Thomas

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Farrell, James Patrick

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Bell, Richard

Fenwick, Charles

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Black, Alexander William

Ffrench, Peter

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Boland, John

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

M'Kenna, Reginald

Broadhurst, Henry

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Flynn, James Christopher

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe-

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Mather, Sir William

Burke, E. Haviland-

Fuller, J. M. F.

Mooney, John J.

Burns, John

Gilhooly, James

Moss, Samuel

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Murnaghan, George

Caldwell, James

Grant, Corrie

Murphy, John

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Grey, Rt. Hn. Sir E. (Berwick

Newnes, Sir George

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

Carew, James Laurence

Haldane, Rt. Hn. Richard B.

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Cawley, Frederick

Hammond, John

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

Channing, Francis Allston

Harcourt, Rt. Hn. Sir William

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Clancy, John Joseph

Harwood, George

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.

Cogan, Denis J.

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W

Craig, Robert Hunter

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Crean, Eugene

Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Dalziel, James Henry

Helme, Norval Watson

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

O'Malley, William

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Mara, James

Delany, William

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

O'Shanghnessy, P. J.

Devlin, Joseph

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham)

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Jacoby, James Alfred

Paulton, James Mellor

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Jameson, Major J. Eustace

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Dillon, John

Jones, William (Carnarvon-sh.

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Donelan, Captain A.

Jordan, Jeremiah

Pickard, Benjamin

Doogan, P. C.

Joyce, Michael

Power, Patrick Joseph

Douglas. Charles M. (Lanark

Labouchere, Henry

Price, Robert John

Duffy, William J.

Langley, Batty

Priestley, Arthur

1412

1413

Reddy, M.

Soares, Ernest J.

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Redmond, John K. (Waterford

Strachey, Sir Edward

Wason, Eugene (Clackman'an

Redmond, William (Clare)

Sullivan, Donal

White, George (Norfolk)

Rickett, J. Compton

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Rigg, Richard

Tennant, Harold John

Whiteley, Geo. (York, W. R.)

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Roberts. John H. (Denbighs.)

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

William, Osmond (Merioneth)

Robson, William Snowdon

Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

Roche, John

Toulmin, George

Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R

Runciman, Walter

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Woodhouse, Sir J T (Hu'dersf'd

Samuel S. M. (Whitechapel)

Tully, Jasper

Yoxall, James Henry

Scott, Chas. Prestwick (Leigh)

Ure, Alexander

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick, B.)

Wallace, Robert

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Shipman. Dr. John G.

Walton, Jno. Lawaon (Leeds, S.

Mr. William M'Arthur

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

and Mr. Causton.

Ordered, That until the 8th August, Government business be not interrupted, except at half-past seven of the clock in the afternoon, under the provisions of any Standing Order regulating the Sittings of the House; and may be entered upon at any hour though opposed, and that in the conclusion of Government business each day Mr. Speaker do adjourn the House without Question put.

EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
MR. J. W. LOWTHERin the Chair.
Clause 7:—
Amendment proposed—
"In page 2, line 39, after the word 'authority,' to insert the words— 'shall, where the local education authority are the council of a county, have a body of managers consisting of a number of managers not exceeding four appointed by that council, together with a number not exceeding two appointed by the minor local authority. Where the local education authority are the council of a borough or urban district they may if they think fit appoint for any school provided by them such numbers of managers as they may determine.
"(2) All public elementary schools not provided by the local education authority shall have a body of managers consisting of a number of trust managers not exceeding four appointed as provided by this Act, together with a number of managers not exceeding two appointed:—(a) Where the local education authority are the council of a county, one by that council and one by the minor local authority; and (b) where the local education authority are the council of a borough or urban district, both by that authority.
"(3) One of the managers appointed by the minor local authority, or the manager so appointed, as the case may be, shall be the
1414
parent of a child who is or has been during the last twelve months a scholar in the school.
"(4) The 'minor local authority means the council of any borough or urban district, or the parish council or (where there is no parish council) the parish meeting of any parish, which appears to the County Council to be served by the school. Where the school appears to the County Council to serve the area of more than one minor local authority the County Council shall make such provision as they think proper for joint appointment by the authorities concerned." — (Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
SIR EDWARD STRACHEYsaid he wished to move a drafting Amendment to the First Lord's proposed Amendment—
"In line 2, leave out 'body,' and insert 'Committee.' "
Under this Clause, as now proposed by the First Lord, it would be necessary for the County Council to appoint a "body of managers." Was it the intention of the First Lord that that body should be independent of the local education authority and have special rights of its own? In the rural districts they never heard of a "body of managers," but merely of "managers," and it would be much more simple to insert "Committee" instead of the "body."
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
"In line 2, to leave out the word 'body' and insert the word 'committee.' "—(Sir Edward Strachey.)
Question proposed "That the word 'body' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that he-thought the words of the Amendment as proposed by him, were more appropriate for what the hon. Gentleman

1415
wanted, than the words the hon. Gentleman had submitted. A "Committee" would be part of the superior education authority. Now, the Government did not want that the managers should necessarily be members of the local education authority. On the contrary, there were a great many cases where they should not be; and the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman would exclude women from being appointed managers.
DR. MACNAMARAsaid he was sorry that the First Lord had not seen his way to substitute "Committee" for "body." This was not a mere question of drafting; it went to the real substance of the Bill. What they wanted was that the managers should be subordinate to the education authority. Clause 8 said that the managers must obey all directions of the local education authority, and what they wanted to secure was, that the powers of the local education authority should be delegated to the Committee of managers. He wanted to know what was going to be delegated to the managers. It was true that the word "body" was used in the Act of 1870, but it was surrounded by all sorts of prescriptions not found in this Bill—the most important of which was that the rules contained in the third Schedule of the Act should be observed, that the managers must give specific notice to the local education authority of the business to be transacted, and that they should in all respects carry out the directions given to them by the education authority. But there was nothing in this Bill giving the same directions—more especially in regard to the denominational schools. He was anxious that the managers of all public elementary schools should act in subordination to the body which elected them. In London there were 450 boards of managers, but they had no initiative, only certain functions to perform prescribed by the London School Board, which was entirely responsible to the public. He hoped that some words would be added to the Clause, by which it would be provided that the managers should be subordinate to the local education authority.
MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid that under Clause 12, the word "Committee" presupposed that the duties of the Committee would be delegated to them by the Local Education authority, and that they would naturally be under obligation to report to their immediate supreme authority all the actions which they had taken.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he felt sure that there was no reason for continuing the discussion. He entirely agreed with the hon. Gentlemen opposite that the managers of the public authority's schools should be, so to speak, the absolute creatures of the authority. Probably additional words would be required to make the point clear, but this clause was not the place in which to do it. The word "Committee" would not do it. It must be done precisely and in terms, and probably the best plan would be to do it in the Schedule.
MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid he simply rose to safeguard his position with regard to some subsequent Amendments that he had on the Paper. His view was that it was a mistake to regard the managers as the mere creatures of the local authority, and that they ought to have some amount of autonomy. So long as it was understood that when the Schedule came up for discussion views of that kind could be put before the Committee, he would offer no opposition to debating the matter at a later stage; but if, on the other hand, a division were taken now, he would not be able to support the Amendment.
MR. DILLONsaid the matter raised was one of supreme and vital importance to the voluntary schools. Under the present law the managers were appointed under Clause 15 of the Act of 1870, and had no power except that delegated to them by the School Boards, but, under the present law, the School Boards had no power whatever over the voluntary schools. All that was now going to be altered, and in the future the managers of the voluntary as well as the public schools were to be under the absolute control of the public

1417
authority. What he was afraid of was that, as the managers of those schools were now for the first time to be brought under the control of the local education authority, their relations with that body would be to a large extent governed by what was done in regard to the provided schools, for there was no other precedent. He desired to enter his protest against this arrangement, which he did not consider satisfactory.
MR. BRYCEsaid that on Clause 6 the First Lord of the Treasury drew no distinction between provided and non-provided schools in this matter, and said that in both cases the control of the local authority would be absolute.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that with regard to secondary education he did not think the point was very important, and he did not think the object of the Amendment could be carried out by the words suggested, but the question subsequently raised was important and would have to be dealt with.
MR. BRYCEagreed that the question raised by the Amendment ought to be dealt with, but he did not think that the Schedule, as suggested by the First Lord, was the best place in which to do it. When on Clause 6, the right hon. Gentleman treated it as a matter to be dealt with in a clause; now he thought it ought to be dealt with in the Schedule. He (Mr. Bryce) thought a matter of such importance ought to be brought forward long before the Schedule was reached, and if the right hon. Gentleman did not bring up an Amendment himself before that stage, it might be the duty of the Opposition to do so.
MR. WHITLEYrose because he had a similar Amendment upon the Paper. He favoured the word "Committee" in the place of "Board" because in his opinion "Board" was too strong a word to use under the circumstances. They knew what a Board of Guardians was, but there were other Boards of which they were not so fond, for instance, the Board of Trade and the Board of Education. The word "body" was not so strong as
1418
"Board," but at the same time it was too vague to be desirable. The word "Committee" was a good word, which suggested that this body of managers had real work to do. A Board of Managers might, in many cases, be in. a purely honorary position. The kind of management with which they had to deal at the present time was slipshod, irregular and unsatisfactory.
*THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The hon. Gentlemen's remarks have nothing to do with the Amendment before the House.
MR. WHITLEYsaid his point was that the word "Committee," which was the Amendment before the Committee at the present moment, conveyed to most minds first, a regular meeting time, second, a secretary to the Committee, and third, a proper record being kept by the Committee. Those were three points they ought to consider when making a new constitution for the managers.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the question was—Were these delegated authorities to be a Committee in the same sense as any other Committee of the local authority? Were they bound to report to the local authority?
THE CHAIRMANsaid that point could not arise on the present question.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsubmitted with due deference that it was revelant, because if the managers were to be a Committee they would be bound to report.
*THE CHAIRMANsaid that if the hon. Member was going to argue the matter on that ground it would of course cut out all subsequent Amendments which raised that particular question.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that if the Committee preferred to take the point later he did not object. He under-stood that the right hon. Gentleman had promised to introduce words to define what the position would be. He gathered that his view was that this body was of a purely subordinate character. There was nothing on the face of the Bill which made it clear what the

1419
functions of the managers were. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to say whether he would introduce words making these functions clear.
*SIR CHARLES DILKEdrew attention to the different views which had been taken of the effect of the Amendment, and said he was inclined to think that the word Committee would carry with it greater powers than the word body.
MR. SYDNEY BUXTONthought that it was clear that some words ought to be introduced into the Bill to show how far the managers were subordinate to the educational authority, but his right hon. friend would be able to gather from the debate that it would not be satisfactory to the passage of the Bill that this matter should not be dealt with until they come to the Schedule. He thought some words should be introduced into this clause, or into some other clause, defining the actual relationship of these managers to the educational authority. If this matter was not dealt with until the Schedule was reached, it would be impossible to deal with Clause 8 until after that.
MR. McKENNAasked if the right hon. Gentleman had considered the meaning of his words when he said that he was going to make these managers the mere creatures of the educational Committee, which was itself the mere creature of the local education authority. He submitted that that would have a most extraordinary result.
MR. CHANNINGsaid he understood the First Lord of the Treasury to say that some part of Section 15 of the Act of 1870 would, in some form or other, be ultimately made applicable to these managers. He would like to ask, in connection with that, whether it was contemplated that the provisions affecting the proceedings of managers in the third Schedule of the Act of 1870 would also be introduced into the Bill. It was important that the proceedings of these managers should be regulated in some definite and businesslike way, and that they should be made responsible.
SIR EDWARD STRACHEYbegged leave to withdraw his Amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Main Question again proposed.
MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid Clause 7, as it was originally drawn, incorporated Section 15 of the Act of 1870, which was perfectly well understood by all those who had been members of School Boards. The new form of the Clause contained no reference to that Section in which the question of tenure of office was dealt with. The terms of these appointments seemed to him, as the Clause stood, very uncertain. These people were to be appointed and dismissed at the pleasure of the authority. He, therefore, hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would introduce the word "annually." He was not particular that the period of appointment should be a year. What he wanted to secure was that the managers should be appointed at intervals, so that a member who did not discharge his duties properly might be relieved of them without difficulty. A Committee which was not subject to re-election was apt to lose its sense of responsibility.
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
"In line 2, after the first word 'managers,' to insert the words 'annually appointed and.'" —(Mr. Alfred Hutton.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
MR. A. J. BALFOURhoped that details on this matter would not be inserted in the Clause. The question was whether the subject should be dealt with by separate clause or schedule, or both. It might be necessary to have a clause in addition to the Schedule, but this was not the proper clause for dealing with the matter. As to the question of substance, he deprecated annual elections in these cases. He thought Section 15 of the Act of 1870 might be taken as a guide. He trusted the Amendment would not be pressed. He would take

1421
care that Amendments were placed on the Paper embodying the views of the Government.
MR. BRYGEsaid that if the right hon. Gentleman would promise to bring up a clause, or suggest another clause on which an Amendment could better be made, the Committee might think it well to postpone the subject. But he considered the question of term to be one of great substance, and he did not think it was foreign to the present Clause.
DR. MACNAMARAtestified to the value of an annual revision of managers. These words were valuable, but they were only one of the many conditions he hoped to see put into this Bill. There ought to be, if not annual election, annual revision, in order that those members who did not perform their functions might be called to account. It was important, before proceeding with the question of management, that the Government should consider how far it would be desirable to set forth generally the functions of managers set forth in Section 15.
MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENhoped the right hon. Gentleman, in arriving at a decision in the matter, would not be guided entirely by School Board experience. The managers ought to have in the rural districts a reasonable amount of autonomy of the local body.
MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid it was amazing that the important point dealt with in the Amendment should have escaped the attention of the Government. It showed the imperfect nature of the Bill, and he hoped advantage would be taken of the Recess to put this and many other matters right. The sense of responsibility
was undoubtedly lacking where managers were appointed for three or five years, and nobody ever troubled to inquire whether they were regular or not in their attendance. Regular attendance was most important, as those who were not regular lost touch with the work.
*MR. HELMEurged that the twelve months term of office should be adopted, so that the appointments should be revised year by year, in harmony with the invariable practice of all County Council and Municipal Authorities, and so bring the local representation on the management of the schools into constant touch with public opinion.
*MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that, as the Amendment of the First Lord covered the two Amendments he had on the Paper, he should not move them.
MR. ALFRED HUTTONthought it would be a very serious matter if this was delayed until the Schedule was taken.
*SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that Clause 15, which was in the mind of the First Lord of the Treasury, was unsatisfactory as a settlement of the question, as its words were "from time to time." He, therefore, hoped his hon. friend would give those who supported the Amendment the opportunity of recording their votes in favour of its proposal.
SIR JOHN BRUNNERthought that a fixed date for the appointment of managers would be more satisfactory than a from time to time arrangement.
(6.23.) Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 104; Noes, 263. (Division List No. 320.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Aben, Charles P.(Gloue., Stroud

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

Asher, Alexander

Burns, John

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Atherley-Jones, L.

Caldwell, James

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Duncan, J. Hastings

Bell, Richard

Causton, Richard Knight

Dunn, Sir William

Black, Alexander William

Cawley, Frederick

Edwards, Frank

Brigg, John

Channing, Francis Allston

Emmott, Alfred

Broadhurst, Henry

Craif, Robert Hunter

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Brown, George M.(Edinburgh)

Dalziel, James Henry

Fenwick, Charles

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Strachey, Sir Edward

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Fuller, J. M. F.

Mather, Sir William

Tennant, Harold John

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

Grant, Corrie

Moss, Samuel

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Griffith, Ellis J.

Partington, Oswald

Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Paulton, James Mellor

Toulmin, George

Harwood, George

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Wallace, Robert

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

Hayter Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Pickard, Benjamin

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

Helme, Norval Watson

Price, Robert John

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

Horniman, Frederick John

Rickett, J. Compton

White, George (Norfolk)

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Rigg, Richard

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Jacoby, James Alfred

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Whiteley, George (York. W. R.

Jones, William (Carn'rvonshire

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Langley, Batty

Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Robson, William Snowdon

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Runciman, Walter

Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

Levy, Maurice

Schwann, Charles E.

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudderf'd

Lewis, John Herbert

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Yoxall, James Henry

Lloyd-George, David

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Lough, Thomas

Shipman, Dr. John G.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

Mr. Alfred Hutton and

M'Kenna, Reginald

Soares, Ernest. J.

Mr. Trevelyan.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

Coddington, Sir William

Flower, Ernest

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Cogan, Denis, J.

Flynn, James Christopher

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Forster, Henry William

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Gardner, Ernest

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Gilhooly, James

Bagot, Capt. JoscelineFitzRoy

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick.

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Lincs.

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Balcarres, Lord

Cox Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Cranborne, Lord

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Crean, Eugene

Greene, Sir E. W (B'rySEdm'nds

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

Banbury, Frederick George

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Grenfell, William Henry

Bartley, George C. T.

Crossley, Sir Savile

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Devonport, William Bromley-

Hamilton, RtHnL'rdG (Midd'x

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Delany, William

Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd,'nderry.

Bignold, Arthur

Devlin, Joseph

Hammond, John

Bigwood, James

Dickson, Charles Scott

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Boland, John

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Bond, Edward

Dillon, John

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Boseawen, Arthur Griffith-

Donelan, Captain A.

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

Bousfield, William Robert

Doogan, P. C.

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Bowles, T. Gibson (Lynn Regis

Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

Hayden, John Patrick

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

Duffy, William J.

Heaton, John Henniker

Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

Duke, Henry Edward

Henderson, Sir Alexander

Bull, William James

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

Butcher, John George

Dyke. Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Campbell, Rt. Hn J. A. (Glasgow

Faber, George Denison (York)

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Farrell, James Patrick

Hoult, Joseph

Carew, James Laurence

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsh'm

Carlile, William Walter

Ffrench, Peter

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

Finch, George H.

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Chamberlain, Austen (Worc'r

Fisher, William Hayes

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

Chapman, Edward

Fison, Frederick William

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Jordan, Jeremiah

Clancy, John Joseph

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Joyce, Michael

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop,

1424

1425

Kimber, Henry

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Myers, William Henry

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Knowles. Lees

Newdigate, Francis Alexander

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(I. of Wight)

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Simeon, Sir Barrington

Lawson, John Grant

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

Leamy, Edmund

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Legge, Col. Hon. Henage

O' Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Sullivan, Donal

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

O'Malley, William

Thornton, Percy M.

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

O'Mara, James

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Tritton, Charles Ernest

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Lowe, Francis William

Parkes, Ebenezer

Tully, Jasper

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Peel, HnWm. RobertWellesley

Valentia, Viscount

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Penn, John

Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield

Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. Ellison

Pierpoint, Robert

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Macdona, John Cumming

Plate-Higgins, Frederick

Warde, Colonel C. E.

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Warr, Augustus Frederick

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Power, Patrick Joseph

Webb, Colonel William George

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Pretyman, Ernest George

Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

M'Kean, John

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Manners, Lord Cecil

Purvis, Robert

Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Pym, C. Guy

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfries-sh.

Rankin, Sir James

Willough by de Eresby, Lord

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton

Rattigan, Sir William Henry

Wills, Sir Frederick

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Reddy, M..

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Milvain, Thomas

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Wilson, John (Glasgow)

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Redmond, William (Clare)

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Reid, James (Greenock)

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Mooney, John J.

Richards, Henry Charles

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen)

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Morgan, David J.(Walth'mstow

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Wylie, Alexander

Morrell, George Herbert

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Morrison, James Archibald

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Roche, John

Murnaghan, George

Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Murphy, John

Round, Rt. Hon. James

Sir William Walrond and

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Gr'h'm (Bute

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Mr. Anstruther.

COLONEL WILLIAMS, on behalf of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Honiton Division of Devon, moved the insertion of words to make it clear that women could be elected to the managing bodies. It was so manifestly right that women should have their fair share in all educational arrangements that he thought there would be no difficulty in the acceptance of the Amendment.
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
"In line 2, after the first word 'managers,' to insert the words 'of both sexes.' "—(Colonel Williams.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid what he understood to be the contention of his
1426
hon. friend was perfectly sound. He agreed that there ought to be a possibility of electing women upon these bodies. He would go further and say that, in a large number of cases, they should be elected; but he objected to the compulsory form of the Amendment, which might limit the choice of the Councils. As a matter of drafting he thought it was far safer to adhere to the well-known interpretation of the term "managers." There could be no doubt that under the Bill as it stood women were eligible.
MR. BRYCEsaid the question was one of the greatest possible importance. Personally, he was inclined to agree with the view of the right hon. Gentleman that women might be eligible under the Clause, but he would like to have an assurance on legal authority that there should be no doubt on that point. But even if that were so, the

1427
question yet remained whether it should not be made compulsory to appoint women. The Amendment proposed to make them necessary members of the Boards of Managers. He thought they certainly ought to be members of the Committees, but whether they should be necessary members of the Boards of Managers seemed greatly to depend on the size of the Boards. If a Board consisted of six members there might be a difficulty, but if there were to be ten or twelve managers he thought it ought to be made compulsory to appoint women. Even in the case of the smaller bodies there was much to be said in favour of having at any rate one woman; and if that point was to be argued, the present was the Clause upon which it should be done.
MR. ERNEST GRAYpointed out that in a great many schools there were three departments— girls, infants, and boys—and in his judgment it was most desirable that women should find seats on the Boards of Managers of such schools. Assuming that they were eligible, it had to be remembered that the body which appointed the managers would consist almost entirely of men, and in practice it had been found that such bodies seldom recognised the claims of women. In regard to the Committee, he thought it should be made compulsory to appoint women as members of that body, and when the Clause dealing with that matter was reached, he should press that point most strongly. He was not prepared to say that it should be compulsory with regard to the Board of Managers of a small school, but, at any rate, it ought to be made clear that women were eligible. For many years, he said, others had held their tongues as to the position of women on School Boards, but he was told that if the point were raised in the Law Courts it was very doubtful whether it would be found that women had a right to serve. But now that a new authority was being set up, he was not prepared to leave the question in that dubious condition. He wanted the House to give the country a lead in matters of this description, and, instead of merely declaring that such and such things were possible, to say that in its judgment they
1428
were desirable. They were bound to let children into the schools at five years of age, and more than half of the children attending the schools were of very tender age. In these circumstances there was work to be done in the schools which no one but a woman could do. There was work to be done with the female teachers which no man could understand. He wished it to be distinctly laid clown that, in the opinion, of the Committee, it was desirable that women should be elected as managers.
DR. SHIPMANsaid he had an Amendment on the Paper with reference to this question which, he thought, would meet the case more completely than that just moved by the hon. Member. He understood the Prime Minister to say that, while he objected to making the appointment of ladies as managers compulsory, there would be no objection under the Clause as it stood to ladies being admitted. He begged to contradict that. If a test case were brought, he was certain it would be shown that women had no right to sit on a Board of management; and this was a good opportunity to make the point clear. Women in these matters suffered both from the disabilities of sex and of coverture. In a legal sense the married woman was not a personality; she was merged in the personality of her husband, and; therefore he was anxious that neither sex nor coverture should be a disability for a seat on a Board of school management. He asked the hon. Member for West Dorsetshire whether he would withdraw his Amendment in order that he might move his own.
COLONEL WILLIAMSdeclined to withdraw his Amendment.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,)said it was impossible to accept the Amendment in its present form unless the Committee were of opinion that women in all cases should be upon these Boards of Managers. That might lead to difficulty; in several cases in getting the best body of management available for a particular district. There might be many districts where it might not be found possible to get as good a manager of the female sex as might be procurable of the male sex. No one could doubt it; and it ought to

1429
be left to those who appointed the Committee to select those who were best fitted for managing the schools. He agreed that where there was a woman qualified to act it was highly desirable that she should be appointed, because she was able to render services which no man, however highly qualified, could render. For this reason the Amendment ought not to be inserted. But as to whether women were eligible to serve as the Bill now stood, he maintained there was no doubt that they were. By the Interpretation Act it was provided that, unless the contrary appeared, words importing the masculine gender should include the feminine. Nor did he agree with the suggestion that there might be some disqualification at common law on the part of women. While women would be eligible as the Bill stood, he thought it would be highly undesirable that the provision should be made compulsory on a body of this kind.
*SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid this matter had been argued in the House over and over again, but the opinions held by the hon. and learned Gentleman holding the office of Attorney General had been overruled in the court of law. It would not be in order at present to cite cases decided in the courts in regard to the eligibility of women, but he could show that the courts had upheld views which were diametrically opposed to the intention of the House of Commons. He could not vote for words which would make it compulsory to have women as managers, but he agreed that some words ought to be introduced which would make it clear that women might be appointed as managers. He preferred the Amendment of the hon. Member for Northampton to that now before the Committee.
COLONEL WILLIAMSsaid that after what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman, he begged to withdraw the Amendment. [Several HON. MEMBERS: No, no !]
MR. BOUSFIELDhoped the Government would look at this matter more sympathetically and carefully before they got to another stage of the Bill. He thought the proper place to make the eligibility of women
1430
as managers clear, would be the Schedule. A school containing girls and infants should have a woman on the Board of Managers; without her, the authority would be essentially incomplete. Words should be inserted to indicate that where-ever possible a woman should form at least one of the Board of Managers. He should like to hear from the Prime Minister that this would receive a little more consideration.
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the Government had said as clearly as language could express it that they were absolutely in favour of giving the freest access on the part of women to every authority found in the Bill. That was their policy; and the question was what was the best legal method of carrying out the intentions of the Government. He was sure, however, that the best way was not, when they came to the word "Committee," "body," or "authority" for the Committee to say then and there that on each of these various assemblages a woman should be eligible. Let the Committee introduce words in the definition clause saying that for every purpose of the Bill women and men should be on an equality in these matters. That was not a legal phrase, but the proposal could be embodied in legal phraseology. There arose the further point, how far the introduction of words like these in the definition clause threw doubt upon other measures that had been passed. He was unable to gauge their effect, but if it be true that what the law officers had successively declared in the House upon this subject had as certainly been upset by the Law Courts as soon as the question came before them, then let the Committee guard against such a calamity by putting words in the definition clause of the Bill. If it be true that the position of women under other measures would be imperilled by the introduction of these words in the Clause, then the Committee ought to be careful as to what it was doing. But, as far as the Bill was concerned, he was ready to introduce words in the definition clause which would make it the avowed and declared intention of the Government absolutely beyond question as far as this measure itself was concerned.
MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that the point raised by the Amendment was not the inevitability of women being managers, but the possibility that the County Council should be enabled to appoint women on the Board of Managers. He thought the point would be much better taken on the next Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for the Flint Boroughs.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
MR. HERBERT LEWISmoved as an Amendment—
"In line 2, after the word 'managers' to insert the words 'of whom at least one shall be a woman.' "
He contended that on the Board of Managers of six members, which controlled the education of boys and girls practically in equal numbers, there should be at least one representative of the girls. He entirely agreed with the hon. Member as to the difficulty of obtaining the election of ladies on these Boards, because the interests of the female sex were apt to be overlooked. But they all knew what magnificent work had been done in the past by lady members on the School Boards. This was shown in the case of the late Miss Bayliss, who, although her politics and her religion were entirely different from the majority of the people, was returned at the head of the poll for the London School Board. That was a great tribute to the work of women on School Boards. And the illustration could be repeated all over the country. The Committee ought to recollect that there were certain branches of education about which men obviously knew nothing, such as needlework, embroidery, and cookery. Then there were the other branches of domestic hygiene, in which girls were taught to have correct ideas of house management, and regarding which it was absolutely necessary that there should be at least one woman on the Board of Management, who might go to the schools and to whom the girls might speak quite freely and unreservedly. And then as regarded the sanitation of the schools, the inspector only paid a visit once or twice a year, but what they wanted was that they should have someone who should go over the school not less than once a week, to look after the ventilation and the proper accommodation provided for the children.
1432
He himself had seen, over and over again, little children actually asleep on their benches because there was no proper ventilation of the school room. He appealed to the Committee to make it imperative that at least one woman should be on the Board of Management.
Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
"In line 2, after the word 'managers,' to insert the words 'of whom at least one shall be a woman.' "—(Mr. Herbert Lewis.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he did not wish to avoid any discussion on this particular point. He thought that there was a general feeling that much was to be said in favour of giving the strongest lead in the direction of framing a scheme for the education authority, by which women would be included on a Board of Management; but it was not desirable to make the appointment of women absolutely obligatory. To limit the choice in any way in a small country parish would be a mistake. If the Amendment were pressed, it would have to be altered; for if it were made obligatory that one of the body should be a woman, it must also be obligatory that one of the body should be a man.
MR. McKENNAsaid that the First Lord's objection to the Amendment was that it would limit the choice of the managers of the schools. But he submitted that the difficulty would be not to find one woman in a parish for election on the school management, but to get six efficient men. He had not a shadow of doubt that, in practice, they would be able to secure the services of one woman who would be able to look after what was essentially woman's work.
MR. BOUSFIELDsaid that he thought this Amendment was undoubtedly in the wrong place. Unquestionably they would be very well advised in giving a lead to the local education authority to appoint a woman on the Board of Management. It seemed to him that every argument as to the indirect control of school by the education authority

1433
applied with more force to the domestic control of the school. It was extremely desirable that a woman should be on the Board of Management, which had to do with schools where there were girls and young children.
MR. EMMOTTsaid that he should vote for this Instruction rather than none. If the question were left open, women would often be excluded where they ought to be appointed.
*MR. C. P. SCOTTsaid that the Vice President had told the Committee that he was anxious to give the strongest possible lead to the local authority to appoint a woman on the School Management Committee, where-ever a suitable woman was available. He suggested the addition to the Amendment of the words "unless the Board of Education shall, in any particular case, otherwise determine." That would enable a local authority to represent to the Board of Education that a suitable woman was not available. It was most desirable that there should be women on these bodies, and he did not see how a lead was to be given to the local authorities unless some words were inserted. The importance of having a woman on bodies of this kind was admitted. Their presence was the more necessary because these bodies would have more control than formerly, and the central authority would be farther away. Owing to the parents not having power to elect, it was the more necessary that the Committee should insert some words in the Bill, and therefore he would move to add the words—
*THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! It is a most unusual thing to move an Amendment to an Amendment to the Amendment.
MR. COURTENAY WARNERthought the difficulty could be easily got rid of if the Amendment was accepted, and these modifying Amendments—for they were nothing else —were moved afterwards. His view was that women made ideal inspectors of schools: it was the one place where women were wanted. He was not sure that it would be to the advantage of education to put women on the education
1434
authority, but in this particular case he thought directions should be given to the education authority to put women on these bodies by words being inserted in the Bill.
MR. WILLIAM JONESasked, now that a definite position had been given to women as teachers, and by the Board of Education as inspectors, why the principle should not be carried to its logical conclusion, and women given a definite position as managers. In these schools they had classes of cookery and needlework, for which women were required as teachers, and women were also required to look after the women teachers and the social comforts of the children.
SIR BRAMPTON GURDONsaid that if the local authority were to elect the whole of the managers he would agree with the Front Bench that this matter should be left entirely alone; it ought to be left to their discretion whether they should appoint a woman or not. But if two-thirds of the councillors were to be appointed by outside authority, then this Committee ought to interfere and tell the authority in this Act what they ought to do. He would certainly support the Amendment if it was made clear that the local authority should appoint women, managers.
MR. BROADHURSTexpressed the opinion that the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman was a perfectly reasonable one. The right hon. Gentleman had promised to introduce certain words in the scheme that should remove all doubts as to the nominating of women on these Education Committees. He opposed the Amendment, on the ground that the women teachers would obtain as mach, if not more, justice from a Board composed of men as from a mixed Board.
MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
(7.26.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 194; Noes, 148. (Division List No. 321.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. SirAlex. F.

Forster, Henry William

Morrell, George Herbert

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

Morrison, James Archibald

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Gardner, Ernest

Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Lincs.

Myers, William Henry

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Gorst, Right Hn. Sir John Eldon

Nicholson, William Graham

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

Balcarres, Lord

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Gretton, John

Parkes, Ebenezer

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

Balfonr, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Guthrie, Walter Murray

Penn, John

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Pierpoint, Robert

Bartley, George C. T.

Hambro, Charles Eric

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks

Hamilton, Rt Hn Ld. G. (Midd'x.

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Bignold, Arthur

Hamilton Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

Pretyman, Ernest George

Bigwood, James

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Hare, Thomas Leigh

Purvis, Robert

Bond, Edward

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Pym, C. Guy

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Randles, John S.

Bousfield, William Robert

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

Rankin, Sir James

Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Rasch, Major Frederick Carne

Bull, William James

Henderson, Sir Alexander

Reid, James (Greenock)

Butcher, John George

Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

Remnant, James Farquharson

Campbell, Rt Hn J. A. (Glasgow

Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Carlile, William Walter

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Renwick, George

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Richards, Henry Charles

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Hoult, Joseph

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham)

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Chamberlain, J. Austen (W're'r

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Chapman, Edward

Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Charrington, Spencer

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (I. of Wight)

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Kenyon-Slaney, Col.W.(Salop

Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.

Coghill, Douglas Harry

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Knewles, Lees

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Colston, Charles Edw. H. Athole

Lawson, John Grant

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

Lee, ArthurH. (Hants. Fareham

Talbot, Rt Hn.J. G.(Oxf'd Univ

Corbett, T. L. (Down. North)

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Thornton, Percy M.

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Tollemache, Henry James

Cranborne, Lord

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Cabitt, Hon. Henry

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Valentia, Viscount

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Walker, Col. William Hall

Dickson, Charles Scott

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Lowe, Francis William

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Webb, Colonel William George

Dorington, Rt. Hn. Sir John E.

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Macdona, John Cumming

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manc'r

Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfries-sh.

Wills, Sir Frederick

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Middlemore, JohnThrogmort'n

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Finch, Georye H.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Milvain, Thomas

Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Wylie, Alexander

Fisher, William Hayes

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Fison, Frederick William

Montagu, Hon.J. Scott (Hants

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

Sir William Walrond and

Flower, Ernest

Morgan, David J. (W'thamst'w

Mr. Anstruther.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Bell, Richard

Brigg, John

Allen, Charles P. (Gloue., Stroud

Black, Alexander William

Broadhnrst, Henry

Asher, Alexander

Boland, John

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

1436

1437

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Helme, Norval Watson

Power, Patrick Joseph

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Price, Robert John

Caldwell, James

Holland, Sir William Henry

Rea, Russell

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Horniman, Frederick John

Reddy, M.

Causton, Richard Knight

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Cawley, Frederick

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Channing, Francis Allston

Jacoby, James Alfred

Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries

Clancy, John Joseph

Jones. William (Carnarvonsh.

Rickett, J. Compton

Cogan, Denis J.

Jordan, Jeremiah

Rigg, Richard

Craig, Robert Hunter

Joyce, Michael

Roberts, John Bryn(Eifion

Crean, Eugene

Langley, Batty

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Cremer, William Randal

Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

Robson, William Snowdon

Dalziel, James Henry

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Roche, John

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Leamy, Edmund

Runciman, Walter

Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Schwann. C'harles E.

Delany, William

Levy, Maurice

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

Devlin, Joseph

Lewis, John Herbert

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Lloyd-George, David

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Lough, Thomas

Soares, Ernest J.

Dillon, John

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Sullivan, Donal

Donelan, Captain A.

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Doogan, P. C.

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Tennant, Harold John

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

M'Arthur, William (Cornwall

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Duffy, William J.

M'Kenna, Reginald

Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n. Gower

Duncan, J. Hastings

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Toulmin, George

Dunn, Sir William

Mather, Sir William

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Edwards, Frank

Mooney, John J.

Tully. Jasper

Emmott, Alfred

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Ure, Alexander

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Moss, Samuel

Wallace, Robert

Farrell, James Patrick

Murnaghan, George

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

Ffrench, Peter

Murphy, John

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

Newnes, Sir George

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

White, George (Norfolk)

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Brien. James F. X. (Cork)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Whiteley, George(York, W. R.)

Fuller, J. M. F.

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Gilhooly, James

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Goddard, Daniel Ford

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Grant, Corrie

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Wilson, Fred.W.(Norfolk, Mid

Griffith, Ellis J.

O' Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

O'Malley, William

Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersfi'd

Hammond, John

O'Mara, James

Yoxall, James Henry

Harmsworth, R. (Leicester)

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Harwood, George

Partington, Oswald

Hayden, John Patrick

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Hayne. Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Mr. Fenwick and Mr.

Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

Pickard, Benjamin

Wm. Abraham (Rhondda)

(7.38.) Question put accordingly, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 99; Noes, 239. (Division List No. 322.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Rhondda

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

Hayne, Rt. Hon. CharlesSeale-

Allen, Charles P(Glouc., Stroud

Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Asher, Alexander

Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

Helme, Norval Watson

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Duncan, J. Hastings

Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

Bell, Richard

Dunn, Sir William

Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.

Black, Alexander William

Edwards, Frank

Holland, Sir William Henry

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Emmott. Alfred

Horniman, Frederick John

Bond, Edward

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

Bousfield, William Robert

Fenwick, Charles

Jacoby, James Alfred

Brigg, John

Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

Fuller, J. M. F.

Langley, Batty

Caldwell, James

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Causton, Richard Knight

Grant, Corrie

Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

Cawley, Frederick

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

Levy, Maurice

Channing, Francis Allston

Griffith, Eills J.

Lloyd-George, David

Craig, Robert Hunter

Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

Longh, Thomas

Dalziel, James Henry

Harmsworth, R. Leicester

M'Kenua, Reginald

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Harwood, George

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Mather, Sir William

Schwann, Charles E.

Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan)

Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

White, George (Norfolk)

Moss, Samuel

Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Newnes, Sir George

Shipman, Dr. John G.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Partington, Oswald

Soares, Ernest J.

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

Pickard, Benjamin

Tennant, Harold John

Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

Price, Robert John

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd

Rea, Russell

Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower

Yoxall, James Henry

Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries

Toulmin, George

Rickett, J. Compton

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Rigg, Richard

Ure, Alexander

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Wallace, Robert

Mr. Herbert Lewis and

Robson, William Snowdon

Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

Sir John Brunner.

Runciman, Walter

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Dillon, John

Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. ArthurFred.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Donelan, Captain A.

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Doogan, P. C.

Jordan, Jeremiah

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

Joyce, Michael

Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

Bailey, James (Walworth)

Duffy, William J.

King, Sir Henry Seymour

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Knowles, Lees

Balcarres, Lord

Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart

Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Farrell, James Patrick

Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

Balfour, Capt, C. B. (Hornsey

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Bartley, George C. T.

Ffrench, Peter

Lawson, John Grant

Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Leamy, Edmund

Bignold, Arthur

Finch, George H.

Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

Bigwood, James

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Boland, John

Fisher, William Hayes

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Fison, Frederick William

Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Bull, William James

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Long. Rt, Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

Butcher, John George

Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Campbell, Rt Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

Flower, Ernest

Lowe, Francis William

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.

Flynn, James Christopher

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Carew, James Laurence

Forster, Henry William

Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

Carlile, William Walter

Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W

Lucas, ReginaldJ. (Portsmouth

Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Gardner, Ernest

Macdona, John Cumming

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

Gilhooly, James

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich

Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Line.)

MacVeagh, Jeremiah

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Chapman, Edward

Goulding, Edward Alfred

M'Kean, John

Charrington, Spencer

Gretton, John

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfries-sh

Clancy, John Joseph

Guthrie, Walter Murray

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Clare, Octavius Leigh

Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

Milvain, Thomas

Clive, Captain Percy A.

Hambro, Charles Eric

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Cogan, Denis J.

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nd'rry

Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Hammond, John

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Hanbury, Rt Hon. Robert Wm.

Mooney, John J.

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Hare, Thomas Leigh

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Harris, Frerick Leverton

Morgan, David J. (Walthmst'w

Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Morrell, George Herbert

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

Morrison, James Archibald

Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

Hayden, John Patrick

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf'rd)

Cranborne, Lord

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Murnaghan, George

Crean, Eugene

Henderson, Sir Alexander

Murphy, John

Cremer, William Randal

Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Myers, William Henry

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Hoult, Joseph

Nicholson, William Graham

Delany, William

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Devlin, Joseph

Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N

Dickson, Charles Scott

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South,

1440

1441

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

Reddy, M.

Thornton, Percy M.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Tollemaclie, Henry James

O'Brien. P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Reid, James (Greenock)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Tully, Jasper

U'Donnell. T. (Kerry, W.)

Renshaw, Charles Bine

Valentia, Viscount

O'Kelly, James (Roscomnion, N.

Renwick, George

Walker, Col. William Hall

O'Malley, William

Richards, Henry Charles

Warde, Colonel C. E.

O'Mara, James

Ridley, S. Forde (BethnalGreen

Warr, Augustus Frederick

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

Webb, Colonel William George

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

Parkes, Ebenezer

Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne

Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesl'y

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset

Penn, John

Roche, John

Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

Pierpoint, Robert

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

Wills, Sir Frederick

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath)

Pretyman, Ernest George

Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.

Wortley, Rt. Hon.C. B. Stuart-

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Smith, Hon.W. F. D. (Strand)

Wylie, Alexander

Purvis, Robert

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Pym, C. Guy

Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

Randles. John S.

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Rankin, Sir James

Sullivan, Donal

Sir William Walrond and

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

Mr. Anstruther.

It being after half-past Seven of the Clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
Committee report progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING

  SOUTH AFRICA—COURTS MARTIAL COMMISSION.
  [MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT.]
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg, Sir, to move the adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a definite matter of urgent public importance—namely, the composition of the Commission appointed to inquire into the sentences imposed by military Courts established under martial law in the South African Colonies and Protectorates. I do not think that any one who wishes to maintain the usefulness of the House, and to enable it to discharge its primary duty as a Grand Inquisition, will disapprove of the discussion of the constitution of the Commission appointed to inquire into the sentences passed under martial law in South Africa. The Commission is of a novel and extraordinary character. It is composed of the Lord Chief Justice of England. Mr. Justice Bigham, and Major General Sir John Ardagh. It is a matter for regret that the first important and far-reaching act of the new Prime Minister should not have been communicated and
  1442
  explained to the House, whose servant the right hon. Gentleman is, or ought to be. Before I deal with the composition of the Commission I wish to read the terms of reference, which were communicated to the public Press instead of to the House. I know I shall not be in order in discussing the scope of the reference, but it is impossible for me to state my objections to the constitution of the Commission if I do not first put the House in possession of what the Commission is to investigate. These are the terms of reference—
  "The King has been pleased to approve of the appointment of a Royal Commission to proceed to South Africa to inquire into the sentences imposed by Military Courts established under martial law in the South African Colonies and Protectorates; and to report whether, in the case of persons sentenced to terms of penal servitude and of imprisonment, and to the payment of fines, who are at the date of the Report of the Commission undergoing any such sentences, or have not paid but are then liable to pay any such lines, it is expedient, having regard to all the circumstances, that such sentences or fines should be remitted or reduced.
  "The Commissioners will be empowered to examine the records of the proceedings, depositions, and other documents, and, in any special case in which they deem it necessary, to call before them persons whom they may judge likely to afford any information upon the subject of the Commission."
  My first contention is that Judges of the High Court should not be selected by the Government for a Commission of this character, which is largely political in its nature, I do not impugn the action of the Judges in accepting the position,

  1443
  but I submit, with all respect, that I am well within my Parliamentary rights in condemning the Government for appointing them. There is no precedent for the appointment of a Lord Chief Justice in matters of this kind, which is to interfere with a matter of purely domestic political concern. It is, of course, well known that Lord Chief Justice Cockburn acted on the Geneva Arbitration, and Lord Chief Justice Killowen on the Venezuelan Arbitration, but I submit that these cases have no analogy whatever to the present one. I have sometimes been given a little credit for some knowledge of historical matters, but I say—and I challenge anyone to deny it — that there has been nothing approaching such a combination of judicial and political powers vested in a Lord Chief Justice of England since 1806, when Lord Ellenborough was invited to take a seat in the Cabinet; and on that occasion Mr. Perceval— afterwards Prime Minister—entered a strong protest against the appointment. From that day to this the Lord Chief Justice has been prevented from acting in a political capacity. The question whether the duties which the Lord Chief Justice and Mr. Justice Bigham have been appointed under this question to discharge are or are not actually political in their nature is not of so much consequence as whether they will be considered political both in this country and in South Africa. But, as evidence of the actual political nature of the appointments and of the actual belief of the "man in the street" on that point, I propose to quote from the leading articles in the Standard and the Morning Post— organs which support the Government, whose editors are the Ministerial fuglemen, and whose duty it is to create a factitious public opinion in favour of their policy. I begin with the Standard, which says—
  "The appointment, which we announce this morning, of a Royal Commission to examine and report on the sentences passed by the Military Courts established under martial law in South Africa, is for obvious reasons a desirable, and even a necessary measure. There can be no question as to the qualifications of the Commissioners. Nobody would dream of disputing the competence of the Lord Chief Justice and of Mr. Justice Bigham, while Sir John Ardagh, who is joined with them, is not only a distinguished soldier, but has also had a very varied experience, of an administrative
  1444
  character, as member of the Mission which delimited the Greco - Turkish frontier, as private secretary to Lord Lansdowne, and for a short time to Lord Elgin in India, and as British Delegate to the Peace Conference at the Hague. The delicate work to be done— which, while mainly judicial, is not without a political element — could not be in better hands than those of two eminent lawyers and a military officer who is at the same time a trained man of affairs. The Commission is not sent out to hear appeals from all the decisions of the Military Courts. To permit a general re-opening of questions already settled would be one of the worst possible ways of confirming the re-establishment of Peace in South Africa. The reference to the Commission is, however, sufficiently wide. It is to consider all sentences of penal servitude and fine in those cases in which the term of imprisonment has not been completed, or the fine paid, and to report whether 'having regard to all the circumstances,' it is expedient to remit or reduce the punishment. The Lord Chief Justice and his colleagues will, in fact, he employed to advise on the exercise of the Royal prerogative of mercy with an equal regard to judicial and political considerations."
  The Morning Post on the same day thus announces the appointments—
  "The Government has appointed a Royal Commission whose task is, in short, to review the sentences passed by Military Courts in South Africa, and to review such sentences on the spot. No fault can be found with the constitution of the Commission. Even if the Lord Chief Justice of England were not the capable and the conscientious judge we all know him to be, his appointment would please and flatter the Boers, who do not as a rule quite comprehend that the head of the legal profession in England is the Lord Chancellor. To them a Chief Justice is a Chief Justice. Mr. Justice Bigham is a painstaking and an impartial executor of the law, and the South African loyalists, who will certainly examine his record with intense curiosity, are not likely to find in his political career any excuse for supposing that he will be disposed towards an undesirable leniency. Major-General Sir John Ardagh is a military man, whose knowledge of South African affairs should be pretty complete, for he represented the Government on the Expelled Aliens Commission, and has lately spent some months in South Africa. Without him, or without any officer of equal standing and equally practised in military law, the Commission would have been singularly incomplete. Lawyers have a tendency to dislike martial law. But martial law carefully exercised, as it was exercised during the late war, generally secures justice. The trials of Kruitzinger, Scheepers, and Cordua proved that before a Military Court composed of officers, who are all the more anxious to be just in proportion as they are unacquainted with legal procedure, the prisoner has more chances than he would get in a legal court of summary jurisdiction. Sir John Ardagh's presence on the Commission will probably prevent the legal members from laying too great stress on slight informalities or irregularities of procedure where substantial justice has

  1445
  been done. At the same time, the appointment of such a Commission may be made the occasion for some plain speaking. For one reason we are intensely glad that it has been appointed. The fact that the sentences of the Military Courts are to be examined is in itself a proof that there is to be no weak general amnesty."
  These are the statements of men who, sitting in editorial chairs, are the mouthpieces of the Party and of the Prime Minister. It may be a small thing, but it is subsidiary to my argument, the absolute necessity for keeping the Lord Chief Justice outside political issues, that English statute law has made a special provision excluding the Lord Chief Justice, alone of all the judges of the land, from taking any part whatever in the trials of election petitions. I wish to ask the Prime Minister a question, and I regret that the right hon. Gentleman does not consider it his duty to be in his place. [At this moment the attention of the hon. Member was drawn to the fact that the Prime Minister was standing between the Speaker's chair and the Front Ministerial Bench.] I am glad to see the Prime Minister present, and may I add "Welcome, little stranger"? [Cries of "Order!"] I desire to know why, out of the whole body of the English judiciary —including the Lords of Appeal —the Government have chosen to appoint two learned judges who, as Members of the House of Commons, were members of the South African Committee, and were prominently distinguished by their hostility to the Boers. Lord Alverstone, as Attorney General, was a prominent member of the South African Committee, and Mr. Justice Bigham was even more prominent. One thing I must say—and it has been abundantly proved —that the crowning mistake of the South African Committee was that it did not insist on the production of the Rhodes-Hawkesley correspondence, in which the conspiracy of the Colonial Office would have been shown.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order ! That has nothing whatever to do with the composition of this Commission.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Have I not a right to show that the judges were members of a Committee which prevented the production of documents which, it published, would have prevented the war?
  *MR. SPEAKER: But the hon. Member must not make an attack on the judges.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I am not attacking these two judges qua judges: I am making an attack on events in their previous careers, which unfit them, as I say, to serve on this Commission. I am not attacking them as judges in any way, but I am attacking the Government for appointing them—the appointment being one, in consequence of the incidents I have named, which is calculated to create distrust of the Commission in South Africa, I know South Africa. I know something of South African opinion, and every one there agrees that the war hinged on the non-production of this correspondence. The Lord Chief Justice (as Attorney General) and Mr. Justice Bigham prevented its production when Mr. Hawkesley would have been glad to produce it. Let me prove this by reading a few extracts from the examination of Mr. Hawkesley by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouthshire, [The hon. Member proceeded to read extracts.]
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order ! The hon. Member is not justified in this. He is discussing the ground on which the letters should have been produced, and if he were permitted to do that he might read the whole evidence, and then say he objected to the two learned judges being members of the Committee. He must confine himself to the question of the composition of the Committee. In doing that he cannot go into transactions in which other gentlemen were engaged.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I intended to go into one transaction only, and that was the conduct of the Lord Chief Justice and Mr. Justice Bigham in suppressing this correspondence—an act which generated the war. The Morning Post says—
  "South African loyalists will examine Mr. Justice Bigham with intense curiosity."
  And adds that he is not likely to lean to the side of "undesirable leniency." To increase the confidence of South African loyalists, I may say that Mr. Justice Bigham has been hand-and-glove with the instigators of the Jameson Raid.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order ! The hon. Member is now attacking Mr. Justice Bigham in a way he is not entitled to do.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I am not making an attack on that learned judge. I am attacking the Government for appointing him.
  *MR. SPEAKER: In my opinion the hon. Member is attacking Mr. Justice Bigham, and he must not do so.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Very well, Sir. But I will, with your permission, read a letter sent on the eve of the sitting of the Commission by Mr. Justice Bigham to Mr. Hawkesley, the solicitor for Mr. Rhodes and the Chartered Company—
  "Goldsmith Buildings,
  "Temple,
  "Aug. 7th, 1896.
  "Dear Mr. Hawkesley,—Can Mr. Charles Leonard come down to the House of Commons tomorrow at five o'clock? The (South African) Committee meet privately at half-past four in Colonel Legge's room, and I would see Leonard immediately after the meeting breaks up.
  "Yours truly,
  "JOHN C. BIGHAM."
  This letter was read in this House by the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil during the South African debate, when the conduct of the Government in not producing the Hawkesley correspondence was attacked; and on February 26th, 1900, the following reply from Mr. Justice Bigham was read—
  "Feb. 26th, 1900.
  "The South African Committee".
  To the Editor of The Times.
  "Sir,—During the debate on Tuesday last, Mr. Thomas, M. P., referred to a letter of mine addressed to Mr. Hawkesley in August, 1896. As Mr. Thomas seems to think that the letter ought not to have been written, and as he has made his opinion public, will you allow me to say why it was written? I wished to know much more than I did then know about the alleged grievances of the Uitlanders, and I was told I could get full particulars of the complaints from Mr. Leonard. I was further told that Mr. Leonard was in London and that Mr. Hawkesley knew his address. I knew Mr. Hawkesley slightly, and therefore I wrote to him asking him to be good enough to procure for me an interview with Mr. Leonard. The incident took place long before the Committee
  1448
  commenced its inquiry and before I had any idea that Mr. Leonard would be called as a witness.
  "Very truly yours,
  "JOHN C. BIGHAM.
  "Newcastle-on-Tyne."
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is abusing his privilege. After having obtained leave to move the adjournment, he is proceeding to open up the question of the Jameson Raid and the action of the South African Committee.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I am not endeavouring to do anything of the kind.
  *MR. SPEAKER: I accept the hon. Member's statement that he is not endeavouring to do it; but he is doing it, nevertheless.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: If I was, it was unintentional. I will generally wind up my case by saying that I regard it as highly objectionable for the Government to appoint two gentlemen who have taken a prominent part on one side in one of the most fierce racial conflicts ever known in South Africa. They are not persons to command the respect of the South African public, or to exercise any real or lasting influence of a healing nature on the disturbed condition of South Africa. As regards Sir John Ardagh, I do not wish to say anything, except that I hope that the Government will take his advice this time. He was the gentleman whose advice the Government did not take when, as Chief of the Intelligence Department, he told them all about the Boer preparations. I regard the association of a military gentleman with two legal gentlemen as a novel and improper method of administering justice, either politically or judicially. I think I have said sufficient to show that the constitution of the Commission is not such as one would have expected a Government, anxious to maintain peace between the two races in South Africa, to propose. I cannot discuss the scope of the inquiry, but I have stated what the inquiry is to be in general terms, because otherwise I would not have been able to pass the strictures which I

  1449
  have thought it my duty, as a Member of the House of Commons, to pass on the composition of the Commission. What I had said tonight will be said throughout South Africa in a short time. The First Lord of the Treasury answered, very curiously a Question put to him some time ago as to whether there would be a general amnesty in South Africa. It was expected that there would be a general amnesty, but instead of that there is to be a Commission, consisting of two gentlemen whose leanings are well known, and a general officer; and, as far as I can see, there is to be no general amnesty or a desire to smooth away differences in South Africa. I would gladly say a great deal more, as, unlike the First Lord of the Treasury, I think that the first place in which strictures should be passed on the Commission is the House of Commons. I have made intentionally no attack on the members of the Commission; but I have attacked the Government for the composition of the Commission, as it is calculated to promote ill-will, disunion, and suspicion in South Africa, and to lower the character of the judicial bench. I beg to move.
  MR. BLACK: I beg to second the Motion of my hon. and learned friend. It would have been very convenient if, before we began this discussion, we had some statement as to the appointment of the Commission. It seems to me that the appointment of these gentlemen will be regarded as a sign of weakness abroad, as it is regarded as a sign of a bad conscience on the part of the Government at home. Why have the Government appointed this Commission if they do not believe that something requires revision in the action of these military courts? Let me examine who are the parties who are to compose this Commission. In the first place, let me associate myself very cordially with what my hon. and learned friend said — that there is no question that the two learned Gentlemen who have been appointed on this Commission are not fair minded men; the question is, whether they will be so considered by the Dutch population in South Africa. It seems to me to be a fatal defect
  1450
  of judgment on the part of the Government that they have shown themselves totally incapable of placing themselves in the position of members of small nationalities. That is all the more remarkable because three or four Members of the Government are Scotchmen, and Scotland has been subjected in times past to the very ills to which South Africa has been subjected. We have had martial law in Scotland, and the memory of it rankles still. What is the position of Lord Alverstone, who is Chairman of the Commission, in relation to the present Government? Not only was he a member of the Jameson Raid Commission, but he was Attorney General at the time the war was initiated, and at the time these very Military Courts whose decisions are to be revised were set up. So far as the Boers are concerned, they will look on Lord Alverstone as the initiator of the very matters to be inquired into, and as one who may have advised the Government on those very constitutional questions that may have to be reviewed. In times past we had in Scotland a man of the name of Sir George Mackenzie. He lives in Scottish history as "Bluidy Mackenzie." He was as courteous a gentleman as Lord Alverstone, but still it would have been highly inappropriate for the British Government at that time to have sent him to judge the drumhead Courts Martial of Claver-house. That would have rankled for all time in the Scottish mind. As regards the particular matter with which we are dealing, supposing a noble member of the house, of Cecil, whose zeal had outrun his discretion, had committed an indiscretion, how would it be liked if his case were to be revised by Mr. Kruger's Atttorney General? That is precisely the position we have got to deal with. Then as to Mr. Justice Bigham, I suppose one of his recommendations is that he is not very well known, except in connection with the Jameson Raid Inquiry. That, I think, was the first occasion on which he figured before the public, and it is certainly the only means the Dutch in South Africa have of judging him. I think that the selection of these two judges out of the judges on the English Bench and the Scottish

  1451
  Bench, and Heaven only knows how many on the Irish Bench, is very un fortunate. Have they been appointed on the advice of the Premiers of Cape Colony and Natal? The Government have shown a singular predilection for following the advice of these gentlemen in preference to the advice of the House. One would like to know whether they have been consulted, and why the selection should have been confined to the judicial Bench at all. Are there not many men of learning and judicial acumen who might have commanded the respect both of the Dutch and the British in South Africa I beg to second the Motion.
  Motion made and Question proposed, 'That this House do now adjourn."— (Mr. Swift MacNeill.)
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): I must say that those of us who have listened to the speeches of the hon. Members will hardly see in them any justification for this most unjustifiable Motion. What is the question before the House? It is whether or not the small Commission appointed by the Government to inquire into the sentences given under martial law in South Africa is a competent Commission to decide the only question they have to decide—whether these sentences are contrary to law or contrary to military practice. With regard to the gentlemen who have been appointed on the Com mission, we have been assured by the hon. Member who made the Motion, not on the faith of any statement of the Government, but a newspaper article, that these judges have been appointed to interfere in a largely political question. And in order to support that idea, a variety of citations have been made as to the conduct of these judges when some years ago one of them was sitting on a Committee to give an opinion on matters then before him. There has not been one thing quoted, with regard either to the Lord Chief Justice or Mr. Justice Bigham, which had anything whatever to do with the question o: martial law. What would be the position of this House if any judge, having served in this House or outside it, was liable to have brought up against him, on
  1452
  a purely legal question, the fact that at one time or other he occupied a Party position in this House? No one at this moment who is administering martial law in South Africa has any connection whatever with the Government. The officers who have been appointed have, according to the best of their ability, in a very difficult situation, carried out the work entrusted to them. When a number of men who are not trained lawyers are suddenly called upon for a certain number of months to administer a very difficult set of regulations, at great distances from one another, without any power of co-ordination with a central authority, it is obvious that there will be occasions in which larger sentences might he given than should have been given, and occasions in which the same sentences might be given in different cases, though if the whole of the evidence were reviewed legally it might not lead to the same result. I cannot imagine any two men who would more largely command the confidence of Parliament than the present Lord Chief Justice and Mr. Justice Bigham when appointed to review sentences so given—not sentences given by their own colleagues or sentences for which the Government, to which the Lord Chief Justice undoubtedly once belonged, are in any way responsible I do think that a Motion of this kind is the most far-fetched attack on these judges that could possibly be conceived. As to Sir John Ardagh, who has been associated with them, he happens to have a particularly acute knowledge of military law, and with that capacity, and with the experience he has already gained in South Africa, I have not the slightest doubt that, not only will he be of the greatest assistance to the Commission, but that he will command the confidence of those who are brought before him. I do think it is a great misfortune that we should be led into a discussion of this kind in respect of a Commission that is going out with purely pacific objects. If I may reply in one sentence to the hon. Member for Banffshire, I would say that his attempt to compare what is taking place in South Africa with what took place in Scotland a century and a half ago is a libel on those who have had to administer martial law during the past year and I have no doubt that there would have been a scene of almost un seemly rejoicing in Scotland if three such

  1453
  men as we are now sending out to South Africa had reviewed the sentences passed under martial law in 1745. I do not answer this Motion at any length. I will not say it is brought forward deliberately to delay public business, but it has the effect of delaying public business. No opinion which has been expressed could possibly justify the Government in altering in the slightest degree the composition of the Commission, or in doubting for a moment the confidence in which it is held by the great majority of the country. The only effect of this discussion, which I hope is not intended, can be to create doubt in South Africa as to the competence and impartiality of men as to whose competence and impartiality the average Englishman would entertain no doubt whatever; and for that reason I would ask the House to reject the Motion.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The right hon. Gentleman said that this was an utterly indefensible Motion. In that I do not agree with him, because I think it is a Motion that arises not unnaturally from the fact that the House of Commons has been kept really in ignorance of the appointment of this Commission and the purpose for which it has been sent. There has been no announcement made to the House of Commons of the existence of tin's Commission—we have had to gather it from the public Press: and I think that if the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues had taken a little more pains to take the House of Commons into their confidence they might have avoided this Motion. But, while I think that it is not unnatural for my hon. and learned friend to have raised the question, he has confined himself to the personal aspect of the question; and I am bound to say that in the personal aspect of the question I cannot follow him in what he has said. I do not think it is necessary at all for us to examine closely into the history of the three eminent men who have been appointed to serve on the Commission. I am satisfied myself that the intention, and probably the effect, of the Commission will be found to be in the direction of
  peace and pacification in South Africa. I confess at once that I welcome the appointment of the Commission as an indication of that intention on the part of the Government, and I hope that it will be successful. When we come to the personality of those who are members of the Commission I part company from ray hon. and learned friend. We know enough of the Lord Chief Justice and Mr. Justice Bigham in this House, and still more from our observation of their conduct in their judicial capacity, to be sure that they are not likely to do anything which would not justify the high confidence reposed in them. I do not think it is necessary for me to refer to the old story of the South Africa Committee or any of the other Commissions to which my hon. and learned friend has referred. I confess I do not think that anything can be gathered from what occurred then, or from any of the other circumstances to which he has referred, which can throw any discredit upon any one of the three members of the Commission. My hon. and learned friend has quoted passages from the public newspapers. The Government are not responsible for all the foolish things that day after day are published in the newspapers. I think that although, as I said at the beginning, it was not unnatural for my hon. and learned friend to raise the question, especially as the House of Commons has been kept largely in the dark upon the subject, yet I entirely dissociate myself from his view of the matter: and, although I have no responsibility in the matter, I can only say that this strikes me as a step taken by the Government which is entirely in the interest of the pacification of South Africa.
  MP. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  (9.53.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 168; Noes, 122. (Division List No. 323.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Bagot, Capt, Josceline Fitz Roy

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manrh'r

  Allhusen, Augustus Hen'y Eden

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Balfour. Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bain, Col. James Robert

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds

  Atkinson. Rt. Hon. John

  Balcarres, Lord

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

  Powell, Su- Francis Sharp

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bignold, Arthur

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Bigwood, James

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Purvis, Robert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Boscawen, Arthur Gririffith-

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Randles, John S.

  Brodrick, Rt Hon. St. John

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hobhonse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Butcher, John George

  Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Ratchiff, R. F.

  Carlile, William Walter

  Houldsworth, Sir Win. Henry

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Renwick, George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Rigg, Richard

  Chapman, Edward

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Charrington, Spencer

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cellings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Samuel, Harry S. (Lime house)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  kewes-Cox, Thomas

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Smith, Abel H. (Hereford, East)

  Cranborne, Lord

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

  Scares, Ernest J.

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Leveson-Gower, Fredcrick N. S.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Lookwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Start, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J.G.(Oxf'd Univ.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Macartney, Rt Hn W G Ellison

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Valencia, Viscount

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Manc'r

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Fielden, Edward Brockle hurst

  Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Finch, George H.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Welby, Lt. -Col. A C E (Taunton

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Milvidn, Thomas

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Perirose-

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst' w

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Flower, Ernest

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Foster, Sir Michael(Lond. Univ.

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S. W.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath

  Gardner, Ernest

  Myers, William Henry

  Wylie, Alexander

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby -(Salop

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  TELLERS FOE THE AYES—

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Sir William Walrond and

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Penn, John

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Pierpoint, Robert

  NOES.

  Abraham, William(Cork, N. E.)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Fenwick, Charles

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc. Stroud

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Ffiench, Peter

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Crean, Eugene

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Bell, Richard

  Cremer, William Randal

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Black, Alexander William

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Brigg, John

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Delany, William

  Gilhooly, James

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Devlin, Joseph

  Grant, Corrie

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Dillon, John

  Hammond, John

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Doogan, P. C.

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Cald well, James

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Harwood, George

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Edwards, Frank

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Murphy, John

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Newnes, Sir George

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Jones, William (Carnarvoush.

  O'Connor, James (Wieklow, W.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  O'Malley, William

  Thomas, Sir A.(Glamorgan, E.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  O'Mara, James

  Thomas, J A(Glamorgan, Gower

  Leamy, Edmund

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Toulmin, George

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Partington, Oswald

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Levy, Maurice

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Tully, Jasper

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Lloyd-George, David

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lough, Thomas

  Price, Robert John

  White, George (Norfolk)

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Rea, Russell

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Reddy, M.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Redmond, John E.(Waterford)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk. Mid.

  M'Kean, John

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsfi'd

  Mooney, John J.

  Roberts, John H. (Denhighs.)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Roche, John

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Moss, Samuel

  Runciman, Walter

  Captain Donelan and Mr.

  Murnaghan, George

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Patrick O'Brien.

  (10.5.) Question put accordingly, "That the House do now adjourn."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 64; Noes, 210. (Division No. 324.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Harwood, George

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Brigg, John

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Malley, William

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Mara, James

  Caldwell, James

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Joyce, Michael

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Cawley, Frederick

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Reddy, M.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Leamy, Edmund

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Levy, Maurice

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Crean, Eugene

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Roche, John

  Delany, William

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Devlin, Joseph

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Sullivan, Donal.

  Dillon, John

  M'Kean, John

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Tully, Jasper

  Doogan, P. C.

  Mooney, John J.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Murnaghan, George

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Murphy, John

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Mr. MacNeill and Mr.

  Hammond, John

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Black.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Chapman, Edward

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bignold, Arthur

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Arnold-Forster. Hugh O.

  Bigwood, James

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H Athole

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Cranborne, Lord

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Brodrick. Rt. Hon. St. John

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Balcarres, Lord

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Butcher, John George

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W.(Leeds

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col.W. (Salop)

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Renwick, George

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Law, Andrew Bouar (Glasgow)

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph(Monm'th

  Rigg, Richard

  Dorington, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Lee, Arthur H(Hants., Fareham

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Runciman, Walter

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Finch, George H.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Flannery, Sir Forteseue

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Flower, Ernest

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.

  Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

  Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Foster, PhilipS (Warwick, S. W.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Toulmin, George

  Gardner, Ernest

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Godson, Sir Augnstus Frederick

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Valentia, Viscount

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morton, Arthur H. A(Deptford)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Myers, William Henry

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Newnes, Sir George

  Welby, Lt.-Col A. C.E (Taunton

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G(Midd'x

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W m.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Partington, Oswald

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Paulton, James Meilor

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Penn, John

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Holland, Sir Wm. Henry

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson. John (Glasgow)

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Purvis, Robert

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  P'ym, C. Guy

  Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Randles, John S.

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Ratcliff, R. F.

  Sir William Walrond and

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Rea, Russell

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  (Mr. W. LOWTHER, Cumberland, Penrith, in the Chair.)
  Clause 7:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 2, line 39, after the word 'authority' to insert the words 'shall, where the local education authority are the Council of a county,
  1460
  have a body of managers consisting of a number of managers not exceeding four appointed by that Council, together "with a number not exceeding two appointed by the minor local authority. Where the local education authority are the Council of a borough or urban district they may, if they think fit, appoint for any school provided by them such number of managers as they may determine.
  "(2) All public elementary schools not provided by the local education authority shall have a body of managers consisting of a number of trust managers not exceeding four appointed as provided by this Act, together with a number of managers not exceeding two appointed (a) where the local education authority are the Council of a county, one by that Council and

  1461
  one by the minor local authority; and (b) where the local education authority are the Council of a borough or urban district, both by that authority.
  "(3) One of the managers appointed by the minor local authority, or the manager so appointed, as the case may be, shall be the parent of a child who is or has been during the last twelve months a scholar in the school.
  "(4) The 'minor local authority' means the Council of any borough or urban district, or the Parish Council or (where there is no Parish Council the Parish Meeting of any parish, which appears to the County Council to be served by the school. Where the school appears to the County Council to serve the area of more than one minor local authority the County Council shall make such provision as they think for joint appointment by the authorities concerned."— (Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  DR. SHIPMANthought that the Interpretation Act of 1889 was only intended to shorten Parliamentary language, and was not intended to confer rights or take away disabilities, consequently if the right hon. Gentleman, the Attorney General, was relying on that Act he was leaning on a very broken reed. He contended that the words of his Amendment were necessary to make it clear that either married or single women could be appointed to the Committee of Managers. He begged leave to move his Amendment.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In line 2, after the word 'managers,' to insert the words 'neither sex nor coverture to be taken as a disability."—(Dr. Shipment.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURthought that he had explained to the House that these words were absolutely unnecessary. There, however, seemed to be some doubt on the point dealt with by the hon. Member, but he thought they should deal with the difficulty as it arose, not by the way of the present Amendment. Under these circumstances he asked the hon. Member to withdraw his Amendment, because it only covered one particular case. There were other Committees and bodies dealt with in this Bill, and he thought they would do better to
  1462
  have some words analagous to those in the Act of 1889, because he considered that they ought to make it perfectly clear that no disabilities attached to the status of women in these educational objects.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that so far as he recollected the proposals of this Bill, the only place where this question arose was with regard to the Committee appointed by the local authority. If there were other cases, perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would mention them. If his hon. friend accepted the right hon. Gentleman's suggestion, and allowed this matter to be dealt with in another proposal, would that also cover the Education Committee? Many of them felt strongly that there ought to be a positive direction upon this matter.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that he entirely agreed with what the right hon. Gentleman had stated, but he did not wish to commit the Government at present as to what they would do upon the case he had suggested. All he said was that the proper way to deal with it would be to postpone this Amendment, and let them, either in some general statute in some general terms lay down this principle so that no loophole or doubt could exist. He thought it would be more practical to have a broad provision which he proposed to put at the end of this Bill. He thought it would be much better to adopt this course, because the question of interpretation had really become an intolerable nuisance.
  *DR. SHIPMANsaid that after the assurance which the right hon. Gentleman had given him he begged leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  *Siu WILLIAM ANSONsaid he should like to say that he believed some other hon. Members, as well as himself, on the Government side voted with some regret against the Amendment which was moved before the Adjournment, not because they thought it was undesirable that women should be allowed to act as managers, but because they thought the compulsion involved made the Amendment

  1463
  impracticable. In accepting the assurance that words would be introduced, which would make it quite certain that women would be eligible both for the new authority to be constituted and for thy Board of managers, he, for one, did not commit himself to the acceptance ot this assurance as being all that they wished to see done under his Bill. When the proper time came he should be prepared to endeavour to make the service of women on the Education Committee of the local authority compulsory.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *MR. CHANNINGsaid it seemed to him quite clear from the previous discussion that the number of managers for the different districts ought not to be stereotyped, but the number ought to be flexible and variable according to the wants and character of the locality. It was necessary to have some elasticity, and it was best to-leave the number to be, determined by the county or local education authority. One area might want a much larger number than another, from local circumstances and distances, or again, it might require managers of more varied types and qualifications than another locality to secure real efficiency, while a smaller parish might have no such difficulties. It was for these reasons that he had placed this Amendment on the Paper. He thought that if the number fixed was less than six it might not prove to be a workable Board. He did not bind himself to six, and another number might be selected, and five had been suggested as being more suitable. To him six appeared to be a convenient minimum and the maximum might be left variable to be fixed by the County Council.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In line 2, alter the second word 'managers,' to insert the words 'to be fixed by the Council, and in no case to be less than six, and of this number.' "—(Mr. Channing.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURdid not think that the Bill would he improved by adopting either of the two proposals contained in the Amendment. The minimum might be very inconvenient, as an education authority might have difficulty in finding the requisite material. It was possible in such circumstances that the result of the Amendment would merely be to dilute the body of managers. He also considered that the machinery by which the hon. Gentleman proposed to attain his end was not convenient.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENthought the right hon. Gentleman had not made out any case against this Amendment. It was obviously absurd that they should have the same principle applied to a large and a small parish, and there ought to be some elasticity. The County Council were not always competent to choose local men. It might be competent to fix the number of representatives, because the County Council would be able to take into consideration whether they were dealing with a scattered parish or an area within a ringed fence where good or bad means of communication existed. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would withdraw his opposition to this Amendment.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEcontended that they could not consider this question satisfactorily without also considering the question of grouping the schools.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid it was not proposed that the limit of six should apply to grouped schools.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that in the case of a rural parish of 15,000 inhabitants with eight board schools, six managers would he a very small number.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURpointed out that this point was dealt with later on in an Amendment, to line 25 by an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Somerset which provided—
  "Notwithstanding anything in this section the local education authority may group any schools provided by them and, with the consent of the managers, may group any schools not provided by them, under one body of managers, consisting of such number and appointed in such manner and proportions as shall have been agreed upon between the local education

  1465
  authority, the minor local authorities, and, in the case of schools not provided by the. local education authority, the managers of the schools concerned, or as may be determined so far as relates to the minor local authorities, in default of agreement, by the Board of Education.
  "Any such arrangement for grouping shall remain in force for three years."
  Therefore, there was no limitation in dealing with grouping.
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid he thought that applied to denominational schools.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The number of managers for groups of schools is unlimited.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he did not see why there should be a fixed limit. He could imagine cases where six managers might be too many, and other instances where four would not be enough. He could not see why the actual number should not be left to the discretion of the local authority. He did not know why the right hon. Gentleman thought there was so much virtue in the numbers fixed.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Somerset did not meet the point which had been raised.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: We are only on provided schools now.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid if they did not take this opportunity of raising this question they would lose a great deal of force when they came to deal with the other schools. In the case of provided schools there was a greater need for an increase in the number above six. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to give to the managers whatever powers he could in order to enable them to work in a satisfactory manner. In a great industrial county they were never sure of business men being able to attend at a particular time, and it was highly desirable that there should be a sufficiently large number of managers to ensure a quorum sufficiently large to prevent the business being done in a hole-and- corner way.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid he did not quite understand the words. Supposing that a County Council appointed three, what was to happen then? Would the other bodies appoint two or one? If they had five, four, or three, what was to be the distribution between the respective authorities? He would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that the consideration which induced him to fix a maximum should also induce him to fix a minimum, so that there would be security of having a working body in the event of any of the members being prevented from attending the meetings by illness or business.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he would point out how these words were intended to work. The Government did not propose that there should necessarily be six; but if a County Council did not choose to appoint four, they must be content not to have the majority of four to two which the Bill permitted. On the other hand, if the Parish Council did not desire to appoint two, the Bill did not compel them to do so. As to the maximum, what was urged upon him was that there were cases in which a maximum of six was insufficient in large country districts to deal with the day-to-day problems of the schools. Such cases he believed to be rare. Personally he believed a body of six was probably more efficient to deal with large problems than a body of greater number. But if there were such cases in which there ought to be more than six, he was inclined to think they would be met by an Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Wigan, providing that where the circumstances of the school required a larger body of managers the Board of Education might make an order increasing the total number of managers, so, however, that the number of managers was proportionately increased. That Amendment provided adequate elasticity for increasing the number above six where the conditions of the district required it.
  MR. CRIPPSsaid that on the question as between the fixing of a maximum and a minimum, he very much preferred the minimum. He believed that the cases in which the minimum limit would cause inconvenience would be very much less than those in

  1467
  which the maximum limit would cause inconvenience. He did not see why there should be a limit in the case of an ordinary County Council. Their conditions were much more varied than in the case of Urban District Councils and Borough Councils, and that was a reason why they should have a much more free hand than a Borough Council or an Urban District Council. The only difficulty in giving them a free hand seemed to be in regard to the proportionate number to be appointed by the Council, and the number to be appointed by the minor local authority, but that could be easily dealt with.
  *SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid that the circumstances of different places must necessarily differ, and it was therefore desirable to give elasticity and variety to the bodies of managers to be appointed. In some cases there would be no difficulty in collecting a meeting, while in others, where the population was greatly scattered, it would be very difficult to collect the same number. The Clause should give power to vary the number of managers according as the circumstances of each case might require.
  MR. BRYCEsaid the First Lord of the Treasury did not seem to have laid enough stress on certain points concerning this question. A County Council was a distant authority. A small number of managers had been sufficient hitherto where the School Board had been near. The Education Committee would not be always meeting; it would be at a great distance, and a great deal would have to be done by the managers on the spot. It would be extremely inconvenient if managers were not able to convene meetings. There should be a strong body of managers, and in no case should the quorum be less than three. In view of the difficulty of getting a quorum, he doubted whether in any circumstances the body of managers should be less than six. There was a great deal to be said for having a fixed minimum of six, and, as regards the maximum, for allowing the local authority to fix it. In a large number of cases one school would serve a large parish, and where they would certainly
  1468
  want more than six managers. Why in these cases should the local authority be put to the trouble, as the hon. Member for Wigan proposed in his Amendment, of making special application to the Board of Education? Was there any reason for fixing a statutory maximum at all. His lion, friend was on firm ground when he proposed to give the local authority the power of fixing the number. On a review of the whole circumstance of the case he thought it would be found that that was the much more practical method of dealing with the question.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEthought it right to say that the County Councils Association were unanimously of opinion that they ought to have a free hand in regard to this matter, and not be tied either by a statutory maximum or a statutory minimum.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEregretted that the First Lord of the Treasury could not accept an Amendment of this character. He pointed out that the County Council had already power to increase the numbers of parish councillors and district councillors, and he saw no reason why they could not do the same with regard to a body of management on a question which was within its own control. He agreed with the hon. Member for the Stretford Division that the most important part of the Amendment was that of fixing the minimum. Now that they had done away with School Boards it was desirable to prevent the public schools falling under a system of one-man management. The effect of allowing a school to come under the control of one man was bad. They did not get public discussion under that system. They got one man running his own fads, and, he was afraid, his own predilections. The managers to be appointed were really to be the substitutes for the School Boards. They; were simply corporate bodies representing the ratepayers more or less directly. At present the minimum number of a School Board was five, and why should they have a less minimum for the body of managers? The right hon. Gentleman said there were some parishes where

  1469
  they could not get six capable men. He had a much poorer opinion of English parishes than hon. Members had on the Opposition side of the House. Besides it was a liberal education for them. There was nothing better in a parish than to pick out six men and give them the management of education in that parish. The real danger in a little parish was this. They were certain to have one most powerful man in the parish who would be on the body of managers. He might be the rector or the squire and if he was one of three there would not be the same independent and free discussion as if he were one of six. If the right hon. Gentleman wanted to secure a good system of education and to interest the people in it, the more members they had on these bodies the better.
  *MR. CHANGINGsaid that he should like to remind the First Lord that earlier in the evening he stated that he proposed to follow the third Schedule of the Act of 1870 in the main, with regard to the regulation of the meetings and proceedings of the managers. In that Schedule the quorum was fixed at three, and that obviously contemplated that the numbers of bodies of managers should be at least, or more than, five or six persons.
  MR. BRIGGsaid that in his view they ought rather to increase than decrease the number. The School Boards required competent bodies of managers to get their work-done, and it would be equally necessary that the new education authority should receive similar assistance. There were the School Attendance Committee, the Financial Committee and four or five other Committees, which would have to be appointed for any school district of any size. And then when they came to groups of schools there would be necessarily a larger number of Committees to carry on the work. He thought,
  with the hon. baronet the Member for Wigan, that the number of managers ought to be increased.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSsaid that the principle of the Amendment was that they should not lay down the hard and fast line that the number of managers should be six, and only six. The Committee should remember that they were dealing not only with small rural parishes, but with schools in County Municipal Boroughs, and Urban Districts. Was it possible that in such localities, with a rapidly increasing population, and whore there were already four or five schools, to believe that a body of managers, limited to six could do the work properly? He made a last appeal to the First Lord of the Treasury to re-consider this question. If the right hon. Gentleman insisted in pressing this limit, he believed it would hamper very seriously the effective operation of educational reform.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that he had already stated that he was willing to accept a larger number on the school management whore the schools were grouped.
  MR. WHITLEYasked the First Lord of the Treasury whether he should insert in the Schedule a provision that the quorum of the managers appointed by the local education authority should not be less than three. It was quite possible that under the Clause as it stood there would be the Church majority in the County Council which would appoint a clergyman, who would appoint his curate. That was not what Nonconformists wanted. He trusted that there would be a small modicum of popular representation on the management of these schools.
  (11.18.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 98; Noes, 266. (Division List, No. 325.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Brigg, John

  Campbell, Bannerman, Sir H.

  Allen, Charles p. (Glou, Stroud

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Causton, Richard Knighr

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Bell, Richard

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Cramer, William Randal

  Black, Alexander "William

  Buxton, Sydney, Charles

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Caldwell, James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Levy, Maurice

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Lough, Thomas

  Strachcy, Sir Edward

  Edwards, Frank

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Mather, Sir William

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomas, J A (Glam'rgan, Gower

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Moss, Samuel

  Toulmin, George

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John

  Newnes, Sir George

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Norman, Henry

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay

  Grant, Corrie

  Partington, Oswald

  Wason, Eugene (Claekmannan)

  Griffith, Ellis.J.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Whiteley, George (York.W. R.

  Harwood, George

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Price, Robert John

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Priestley, Arthur

  Williams, Osmond(Merioneth)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Horminan, Frederick John

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hndd'rsf'd

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Robson, William Snowdon

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Langley, Batty

  Runciman, Walter

  Mr. Channing and Mr.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Humphreys-Owen.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Forster, Henry William

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W

  Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Gardner, Ernest

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Gilhooly, James

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Arrold, Sir William

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Gordon, Maj Evans (T'r H'mlets

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Gore, Hn G. R. COrmsby- (Salop

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Creane, Eugene

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Gretton, John

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W(Leeds

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Delany, William

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Devlin, Joseph

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hammond, John

  Beresford, Lord Charles Wm.

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Bignold, Arthur

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Bigwood, James

  Dillon, John

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Boland, John

  Doogan, P. C.

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Bond, Edward

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Bull, William James

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Henderson, Sir Alexander

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Butcher, John George

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

  Campbell. John (Armagh, S.)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Carlile, William Walter

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man.

  Houldswoith, Sir Wm. Henry

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Uerbysh.)

  Ffreneh, Peter

  Hoult, Joseph

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh' m

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Finch, George H.

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Hoxier, Hon. JamesHenry Cecil

  Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Chapman, Edward

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Flower, Ernest

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  1472

  1473

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Murray, Charles J, (Coventry)

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Myers, William Henry

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B (Isle of Wight

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Skewes -Cox, Thomas

  Joyce, Michael

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

  Keswick, William

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Stanley Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Law, Andrew Bonai (Glasgow)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Lawrenee, Sir Josoph (Mon m'th

  O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Lawson, John Grant

  O'Donnell John (Mayo, S.)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Leamy, Edmund

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm

  O'Malley, William

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  O'Mara, James

  Sullivan, Donal

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Talbot, Lord E (Chichester)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ

  Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Krskine

  Peel Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Penn, John

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Loug. Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Lowe, Francis Sir William

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Tully, Jasper

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lyttelton Hon. Alfred

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

  Pryce Jones, Lt. Col. Edward

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Macdona, John Gumming

  Purvis, Robert

  Webb, Colonel William George

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Pym, C. Guy

  Welby, Lt. -Col A. C. E (Taunton

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Randles, John S.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Rankin, Sir James

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton Un. Lyne

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Rasch. Major Frederic Carne

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  M'Ken, John

  Ratchff, R. F.

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W. F.

  Reddy, M.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfries-sh.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Milvain, Thomas

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Renwick, George

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Ritchie, R. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wrighton, Sir Thomas

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Roche, John

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Dept ford

  Round, Rt. Hon. Charles

  Murnaghan, George

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Murphy, John

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Sir William Walrond and

  Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Mr. Anstruther.

  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid the object of the Amendment he now moved was to reverse the number of representatives to be appointed by the major local authority and by the minor local authority. The Clause proposed that the County Councils should appoint not more than four managers, and the minor local authority not more than two. He proposed to reverse that. He believed that his proposal would not only find considerable acceptance in the House, but in the country at largo. If the majority of the members were to be nominated by the county authority, that would naturally deprive the locality of a large share of the interest it would otherwise take in the management of its own schools. Small localities were intensely interested in their local affairs. Hon. Members would find that a member of an Urban District Council would be
  1474
  reported at greater length in the local papers than the First Lord of the Treasury himself. They would also find that the interest that would be taken in the schools of a particular locality by the County Council would be almost infinitesimal as compared with the interest taken in them by the local authority. He would, therefore, urge on the right hon. Gentleman the necessity of giving the local authority a larger share in the management of the schools. The object of the right hon. Gentleman was no doubt to prevent a conflict of authority between the major and the minor authorities, but he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that any such objection was entirely theoretical. His hon. friend who was at the head of the secondary education system in Wales would agree with that statement. In every county in Wales the county authority only appointed a fourth or a

  1475
  fifth of the local governing body for the schools, and according to the right hon. Gentleman there ought to he constant conflict between the local governing body and the county authority; but as a matter of fact that was not the case. Questions arose between the two authorities, but they were invariably settled amicably; and there was no instance of the two authorities coming into sharp conflict. In Wales they had enlisted local sympathy on behalf of the schools, and they had succeeded in doing that without exciting any conflict of jurisdiction whatever. There was another question raised by the Amendment. He proposed to leave out the words "not exceeding four" in order to insert "of whom one-third shall be." He thought that it would be more convenient that the proportion to which each authority would be entitled should be fixed rather than that an arbitrary number should be laid down. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment, and he could assure him that the objections to it were theoretical and not practical.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In lines 2 and 3, to leave out the words 'not exceeding four.' and insert the words 'of whom one-third shall be.'"—(Mr. Herbert Lewis.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  *MR A. J. BALFOURsaid he entirely concurred with the hon. Gentleman that the common sense of Englishmen was such that probably no distribution of power as between the County Councils and the minor authorities would necessarily or even in any very considerable percentage of cases produce a deadlock; but the hon. Gentleman appeared to forgot that after all the County Council was to be the supreme authority in all matters of education, and, that being so, it was only reasonable to give them a majority. The hon. Gentleman said that the County Councils would appoint members of their own body who would be indifferent to the wants of particular localities. He did not believe for a moment that they would do anything of the kind. They would, of course, select, whenever they could, persons on the spot who had cognisance of the
  1476
  district. In all the circumstances of the case, it seemed to him that it would be extremely foolish, after the Committee had decided that the County Council was, to be the supreme authority in all matters 'of education, to hand over to an inferior body the appointment of the majority of the managers, which might, although he did not think they would, come into conflict with the superior authority.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid that many obstructions to educational progress in the country had been stated during the discussions on the Bill, such as lack of money, lack of co-ordination, and lack of popular management; but there was one obstruction which had not yet been mentioned. It was the most serious obstruction of all, and one which Parliament could not remove. That was the lack of interest on the part of the people in the schools. He spoke as an ex-school teacher, and he said that if the Bill did anything in the way of increasing popular interest in education, then, indeed, it would be a great educational reform Bill But it seemed to him that the proposal of the Government was calculated to diminish the interest taken by the people of the locality in their schools. The existing lack of interest was notorious, and much to be regretted. Speaking in June 1898, the Vice President said that it was responsible for the gross irregularity of an appreciable section of the children, and for the early age at which the children went into the labour market. Let them contrast that lack of interest with the interest taken in education in Germany, where the poorer classes were alive to the value of education, and had sympathy with the highest educational alms. the only way to create a similar atmosphere in this country was to give the people a direct interest in the management of their schools. He did not put it forward as a Party question, but merely as a means of interesting the people of the locality in their schools. There might not be very much difference between the proposal of the Government and the proposal of his hon. friend, but the latter was more likely to stimulate interest on the part of the people. He hoped the First Lord of the Treasury would reconsider his decision, and allow each locality to select a majority of the members to manage its own schools.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid that, in the interests of education, he would join in the appeal of his hon. friend to the right hon. Gentleman. When the Bill began to work, there would be many districts where education had been well managed, where the local authority was greatly interested in it, and where the community generally had been proud of its schools. In those cases, he thought that there possibly might be friction. It was quite possible that the County Council might be out of touch and out of harmony with the political complexion of a particular district, and in that case the interposition of Council nominees might be likely to lead to friction, which would not conduce to the progress of education. That might be avoided by the acceptance of the present or a similar Amendment. They should, as far as possible, endeavour to keep up local interest in schools, and they should not do anything which might be regarded as a snub to the local authority. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider very carefully whether he could not gain all he wished by giving the local authority. majority of local managers, and allow the County Council to send in a sufficient number to keep the control in their own hands. As the County Council had control of the money, they would be bound to have control of the local authority also.
  *MR. EDWARDSsaid he desired to support the Amendment, and he did so all the more readily because of his own experience in Wales. He failed to see what objection there could be to giving a locality the power to choose two-thirds of the local managers. The Prime Minister said a vigorous minority could do a great deal. This implied a conflict between the representatives of the County Council and of the local body, although it could only be on subordinate questions, because the County Councils would have supreme control of the schools. But if the matters in dispute would be unimportant, that was all the more reason why the opinion of the locality should be allowed to prevail. If it were good to have an expression of local opinion at all, then it ought to I be trusted altogether; and if, on the
  1478
  other hand, local opinion were untrustworthy, it ought to be left alone. Hon. Members opposite were anxious that the children should be educated in accordance with the desires of their parents; but the Amendment afforded an opportunity of I carrying out that idea, because it would allow the parents to show, in a practical way, how they wished their schools to be managed. He, himself, was in favour of trusting the parents, but hon. Members opposite appeared to be afraid of that. The board schools were under popular control, and they had given better results than the voluntary schools; and he thought that, from an educational point of view, there was nothing to be feared in accepting the Amendment. They had been told that the smaller School Boards had done badly, but that was because their areas were too small. The Bill, however, remedied that, as the County Council was to be the supreme authority, and only details of management would be dealt with by the governing body, on which he thought the locality ought to have a majority.
  MR. TREVELYANsaid that the importance of the Amendment lay in its influence for exciting local interest in education. With reference to the argument of the First Lord of the Treasury that friction might be caused between the two authorities concerned, it should be remembered that the duties which the managers would have to perform would be of an unimportant character, unless the Council elected to hand over to them the choice of teachers. Apart from that, the duty of the managers would be to merely watch the ordinary working of the schools, and the subjects on which there-could possibly be a quarrel would be very few indeed. It seemed to him that the argument of the right hon. Gentleman was very weak as compared with the great importance of giving the locality some interest in its schools. In the real interest of education, they should get the people to feel that the schools were their own. The local education authority would have the opportunity of picking out persons in a comparatively humble position who were interested in education, but the County Council would be utterly unable to make any selection of persons who bad not hitherto been known for

  1479
  their interest in education. The advantage of the School Board system was that it brought out a class of persons who otherwise would not have been brought to the front. The County Council would have to select men by types. They would have no other standard, and they would select a clergyman, or the squire, or the Nonconformist minister, or the local land agent, because of their position, and not because of their interest in education. There was no other way of finding out persons who were interested in education, except by giving the locality power to select a majority of members.
  SIR BRAMPTON GURDONsaid he cordially supported the Amendment, because the proposal of the Government put on the County Councils a burden greater than they could bear. It was impossible that the County Councils could make themselves sufficiently acquainted with the circumstances in each parish to enable them to appoint proper representatives on the Board of management. The people to be elected should be on the spot; and who could better select them than the Parish Council? He was happy to say that in his part of the country there was not the lack of local interest to which the hon. Member for North Camberwell had referred. In his own parish the Parish Council appointed a small sub-committee to manage the schools; and that was the proper course to follow. A representation of a third would be quite sufficient for the County Council.
  MR. MILDMAYsaid that in many country villages, where an interest was taken in education, there was a difficulty on the part of the people in reconciling themselves to the abolition of the School Boards, especially where there were working men representatives on them. The only way in which they could be reconciled was by the suggestion that perhaps it might be possible to introduce an Amendment into the Bill, by which the best men on the country School Boards might find places on the Managing Boards of the schools. That had been brought to his notice over and over again in his own constituency; and he hoped that the
  1480
  Government might see fit to consider the possibility of accepting the Amendment.
  MR. DILLONsaid he had noticed that several hon. Members had assumed that there might be friction between the managers and the local education authority. The Committee were in a difficulty in discussing the matter, because they did not know precisely what the relations between the Board of managers and the local authority were to be; but in so far as they had any light on the subject, it seemed to him impossible that friction could arise. The Prime Minister stated the other day that the managers would be the servants of the local authority; and how, then, could there be friction? The right hon. Gentleman referred to Section 15 of the Act of 1870 as the principle by which the Government intended to be guided; but that section gave power to the School Boards to delegate any of their powers to a body of managers to be appointed by them. Was that power to be conferred on the local authority?
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid only as regarded the four members.
  MR. DILLONsaid that what he understood was that the whole of the managers were to be the servants of the education authority to carry out its decrees. Were they to understand that the men appointed by the local authority were to carry out the wishes of that authority, and that the other members were to be independent? If the members to be elected by the minor authority were to be independent of the major authority, then, no doubt, the Amendment meant a great deal, because friction would be possible; but if the managers were to be the servants of the education authority, he could not see where the friction could arise; and he was, therefore, inclined to strongly support the Amendment.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid that the County Councils would have full financial control of the schools; and he himself could not imagine how any serious conflict could possibly arise. Whether the number of managers was great or small, the control of the County Council would be exercised. On the

  1481
  other hand, the real difficulty would be that the County Council would, in many cases, be regarded as being a long way off The more they were in touch with the locality, and the more they could work through persons on the spot, always having this tight financial control, the better, and not the worst, it would be for the County Council. He regretted that this part of the Bill was not based on the principle of entrusting the local administration to some local authority, whether the Parish or Urban Council, and placing the whole under the financial control of the County Council. There was much prejudice with regard to the Rural Councils. They were said to be composed of farmers who were hostile to education. He did not admit the truth of that statement, but even if it were the case, was it not likely that, just as working men would be interested in education by having the management placed in their hands, so a stronger public interest in education would be created in rural districts by these duties being placed on the Rural Councils? The weakness of the small School Boards had been their extreme poverty, but directly the financial control was given to the County Council that difficulty would be removed, and an immense improvement would be effected in the whole system of local administration, by the mere fact that the financial control was taken away from the smaller area and put upon the larger. He hoped that in some way the local element with regard to school management would be strengthened, and he believed that if the right hon. Gentleman would accept an Amendment in the direction he had suggested, the progress of the Bill would be greatly facilitated.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid the interruption of the First Lord to the speech of the hon. Member for East Mayo had thrown a new light on this question. It was news that the managers would be divided into two classes, but it was now possible to understand why the First Lord anticipated conflict. Four of the managers would be creatures of the major authority, and the remaining two would be critics of the other
  1482
  four. It was desirable that the people of a locality should take greater interest in education. The only question for discussion seemed to be as to which of the two bodies was the more likely to suggest men able to look after the education of a district. Was it the authority meeting twenty miles away, or the authority which knew the people living in the district? If the Committee were really in earnest in their desire to get managers who knew the needs of the locality, the only way in which that object could be secured was by allowing the local authority to elect the men. In many districts there were School Boards consisting of five persons. If the local authority was reduced to selecting two, there would be a considerable surplus of men who had for years been devoted to the education of the district. He submitted that the authority should have the right to elect at any rate, four, so that the talents of these men might be utilised. It was really absurd that a borough of say 9,500 inhabitants should be able to elect only two representatives, while the County Council at a distance elected four.
  MR. CHARLES ALLENthought that if the Committee could be polled, probably 75 per cent, would agree that the great stumbling block in the way of education was the indifference among the masses of the people, and that the greatest reform they could achieve would be to create a greater interest in the elementary education of the country. If the right hon. Gentleman would accept this Amendment there really seemed to be a chance of something being done for the good of education. It was frequently said that interest in education did not exist in the county districts, that five-member School Boards were utterly hopeless, and that nothing would be done by such bodies. To disprove that he instanced the case of a small School Board, of which he had knowledge. That Board was founded eight years ago to take over two voluntary schools. The population was 960, and they rated themselves at £3 per head for building purposes. They set to work and improved the average attendance

  1483
  from 99 to 100. That, he thought, was a good sample of excellent work being done where local interest was excited. If the right hon. Gentleman would keep in mind that the main object was to induce people to take an interest in education, and that this could be done by giving local authorities —who, after all, were in close touch with their constituents—the right to elect a considerable proportion of the local managers of the schools, he would be doing a great work for the benefit of elementary education.
  MR. BROADHURSTsaid that, being a voter in the division, he had taken great interest in the educational work referred to by the hon. Member for North Norfolk. In Cromer for the last seven years, they had had a School Board, a number of the members of which were working people who had devoted themselves to the cause of education. They had one member of the County Council —an exceedingly good representative in a way, but he was elected because he had the time and could afford to travel fifty miles on County Council days to discharge his duties as a councillor. What interest would the people of Cromer have in this new educational scheme when the management of their schools was transacted many miles away? The local interest would be entirely destroyed. If they could induce the Prime Minister to accept this Amendment and allow the residents of a small township to elect four managers so as to retain their personal interest, the continuation of the progress they had made during the last seven years would be secured. How could this be secured under the Bill as it stood, because the whole thing would be abolished? This was not a theological difference or a question of retaining the power in the hands of one particular denomination. Surely this local interest in educational work ought not to be destroyed, and if the Prime Minister would only detach himself from prejudicial associations on his own side, he felt certain that he would be the first man to see the necessity and value from a national point of view of continuing local interest, especially in educational affairs.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid it had been argued that if the Amendment were not adopted popular interest in education— which they should desire to uphold— would be destroyed. Neither in Germany nor in Scotland, the two places where interest in education was strongest, and of the longest growth, did it in the least depend on popular election. In Scotland it was of an old historic growth, and existed long before the era of School Boards. They had no right to assume the County Councils were going to behave in so idiotic a fashion as to ignore the best men in each locality to do this work. Were they to believe that when they had got five efficient managers for such a place as Cromer that the County Council was going to ignore these gentlemen whom the hon. Member for Leicester had referred to, who had had great educational experience, and go outside the limits of Cromer to some distant parts of Norfolk and ask other gentlemen to do the work? Besides, if the Amendment were adopted there would be a danger of conflicts between the County Council and the Board of Managers. He hoped the Committee would come at once to a decision on the point.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the right hon. Gentleman had made it perfectly clear that this was not a Committee of the County Council, but a perfectly-independent body, and the only control the County Council would have over it would be that the four nominees of the County Council might be changed. The First Lord of the Treasury had said that the County Council was not a body which was likely to do very foolish or fatuous things, but was that really the question? If the County Council did not know the people who resided in the locality they could not appoint the best men. If the right hon. Gentleman knew how County Councils worked, and if he had had any experience of the difficulty they experienced in picking men suitable to represent a locality, he would not support the doctrine he had put forward. Could the right hon. Gentleman point out a single instance where a County Council appointed the majority upon any local body? In Wales the majority was appointed by the locality. The County Councils

  1485
  appointed representatives, but there was hardly any case where they appointed a majority. The only case he knew in which the County Council appointed a majority was in regard to the River Conservation Board, and he asked anybody if they regarded that as a satisfactory body? On that Board men were appointed who did not know the locality, and, as a rule, one man got up and nominated the whole body, with the result that it was generally left to the local landowners. With this experience before them, why should they decline to follow the precedent of the Welsh County Councils. The success of this educational system would depend upon the quality of the men and women appointed as managers. They would be entrusted with the most important duty of appointing teachers and fixing their salaries. Upon the salary depended the quality of the person who would apply for the post, and, therefore, the whole success of the schools would depend upon the kind of managers who were appointed. Even in the large county like Glamorganshire, in some of the rural districts, they had a great difficulty in getting men to come to the County Council meetings on account of the distance. Often they had to go to the neighbouring town for a representative, with the result that they I did not get men who knew the locality,' and they were selected purely because the district knew them as good business men, and because they were in general sympathy with the political views of the inhabitants. Would it not be much better to leave it to the Parish Councils, who knew the best men, and who had the confidence of the locality, to appoint the managers? Two or three qualifications were wanted in a Board of Managers. Were the members of the County Council the best people to pick out men with local knowledge, educational experience, local government experience, and business experience? The County Council could not pick out four men in a parish who would be the best for the purpose. He thought the right hon. Gentleman was wrong when he talked about friction. He agreed that on the whole it was
  better that there should not be friction, but there was a certain kind of friction which did good. They would have a locality demanding a larger share of the grants than the County Council were prepared to concede to it. There would be friction on that account, but that was healthy friction. On questions of rivalry with respect to staff and equipment there would also be friction, but that was the best thing in the world for improving the standard of the schools. Another kind of friction might arise in this way. Supposing the County Council was of one political or religious complexion, and they had within the area of their jurisdiction a parish or town of 10,000 of a different political complexion. There they might have a Liberal majority on the Board of Managers administering the education of a district which might be Conservative and Church. It might be the other way about. The result would be that there would be friction of the worst sort. The right hon. Gentleman had said that this was not a political matter. Why then did he not leave it open to the Committee to decide?
  MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAMurged the necessity and the desirability of retaining in the locality an intelligent interest in the management of the schools. In the part of the country from which he came the efficiency of the education given had increased, as the interest of the people in education had increased. If they decreased the interest of the people in the appointment of managers so would their interest in and the efficiency of education decrease. He hoped the Amendment would be agreed to.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  (12.55.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 179; Noes, 121. (Division List No. 326.)

  AYES.

  Acland -Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W.(L'ds

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn Ld. G. (Midd'x

  Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley

  Bathurst, hon. Allen Benjamin

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Beresford, Lord Chas. William

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Purvis, Robert

  Bignold, Arthur

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Randles, John S.

  Bigwood, James

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Rankin, Sir James

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Bond, Edward

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Renwick, George

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Butcher, John George

  Hoult, Joseph

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cecil Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Keswick, William

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (I of Wight)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Cranborne, Lord

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Thornton, Percy N.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Lowe, Francis William

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Walker. Col. William Hall

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Macdona, John Gumming

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund, Lyne

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'r

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Fielden, Edward Broeklehurst

  Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Finch, George H.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Milvain, Thomas

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

  Morrell, George Herbert.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Gardner, Ernest

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Wylie, Alexander

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Gordon, Maj Evana-(T'r H'ml'ts

  Mount, William Arthur

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Sal'p

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Sir William Walrond and

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. K.)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Dillon, John

  Allen. Charles P. (Gloue. Stroud

  Cawley, Frederick

  Doogan, P. C.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Duffy, William J.

  Black, Alexander William

  Gogan, Denis J.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Boland, John

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Edwards, Frank

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Crean, Eugene

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Brown, George M, (Edinburgh

  Cremer, William Randal

  Fenwick, Charles

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Ffrench, Peter

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Delany, William

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Caldwell, James

  Devlin, Joseph

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  1488

  1489

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Mac Veagh, Jeremiah

  Roche, John

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Kean, John

  Runciman, Walter

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Grant, Corrie

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Grey, Rt. Hon. Sir E. (Berwick)

  Mather, Sir William

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Morley. Charles (Breconshire

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Moss, Samuel

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Hammond, John

  Murnaghan, George

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Harwood, George

  Murphy, John

  Sullivan, Donal

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South

  Thomas, SirA. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Norman, Henry

  Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.

  Toulmin, George

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Warner, Thomas Court enay T.

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Malley, William

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshr.

  O' Mara, James

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Partington, Oswald

  Whiteley, George (York., W. R

  Joyce, Michael

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Labouehere, Henry

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Reddy, M.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Levy, Maurice

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Lough, Thomas

  Rickett, J. Compton

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  (1.8.) Question put accordingly, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 170; Noes, 126. (Division List No. 327.)

  AYES.

  Acland Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hoult, Joseph

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Howard, John (Kent, Fav'rsh'm

  Arrol, Sir William

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Keswick, William

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J.(Manc'r

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Finch, George H.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lawson, John Grant

  Beresford, Lord Chas. William

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm

  Bignold, Arthur

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Bigwood, James

  Foster, PhilipS. Warwick, S. W.

  Leveson -Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lockwood, Lt. Col. A. R.

  Bond, Edward

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Butcher, John George

  Gorst, Rt, Hn. Sir John Eldon

  Lowe, Francis William

  Carlile, William Walter

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Cavendish, V C W (Derbyshire

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Greville, Hon. Roland

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

  Charrington, Spencer

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G(Midd'x

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn.W. F.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesh're

  Colston, chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Montagu, G. (Huntingion)

  Canbrorne, Viscount

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Mount, William Arthur

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Pease, Herbt, Pike (Darlington

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Wylie, Alexander

  Purvis, Robert

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Randles, John S.

  Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Renwick, George

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Colonel Edward

  Sir William Walrond and

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Valentia, Viscount

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork. N. E.)

  Grant, Corrie

  O'Mara, James

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Partington, Oswald

  Allen, Chas. P. (Gloue., Stroud

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hammond, John

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Harwood, George

  Priestley, Arthur

  Black, Alexander William

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Rea, Russell

  Boland, John

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  Reddy, M.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Brunner. Sir John Tomlinson

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Caldwell, James

  Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire

  Roche, John

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Runciman, Waller

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Joyce, Michael

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Labouchere, Henry

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Charming, Francis Allston

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Levy, Maurice

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sullivan, Donal

  Crean, Eugene

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Cremer, William Randall

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, F. Freeman - (Hastings

  Dalziel, James Henry

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Delany, William

  Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift

  Toulmin, George

  Devlin, Joseph

  Mac. Veagh, Jeremiah

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Kean, John

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Dillon, John

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Mather, Sir William

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

  Whitley, George (York, W. R.)

  Duffy, William J.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Edwards, Frank

  Moss, Samuel

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Murnaghan, George

  Wilson, Fred, W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Fenwick, Charles

  Murphy, John

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Norman, Henry

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Foster, Sir Michael(Lond, Univ.

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.)

  TELLERS FOE THE NOES—

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Malley, William

  MR. BRYCEsaid they had been in this Chamber for nearly twelve hours. There had only been one com-
  1492
  paratively brief interval, and most of them were beginning to feel that their faculties had been so over-taxed by the exertions

  1493
  they had made during the last eleven hours that they were hardly in a fit condition to carry on the discussions further. He thought the discussions that evening had been eminently pacific and reasonable, and the speeches had been short and relevant.
  SIR WILLIAM TOMLINSON: Oh, oh!
  MR. BRYCEsaid that if the hon. Baronet the Member for Preston had been present during the whole of the evening he would have found it impossible to point to a single irrelevant speech. It was quite true that discussion did not always bear fruit, but he was sure that the First Lord of the Treasury did not wish that the discussions should take place when they could not be reported. The questions they were considering were of great importance, and they could not be reported if they went on longer. [Cries of "Oh, oh !"] As the right hon. Gentleman must wish that the same pacific spirit should be maintained, he thought he would see that it would be in the interests of the Bill, and more especially to the passage of this Clause, that he should now consent to allow them to go to bed. He moved to report progress.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again." — (Mr. Bryce.)
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he had no desire to put any undue strain upon the intellectual faculties of hon. Members opposite, but he thought the Committee would admit that it was only reasonable under the circumstances that they should finish the first portion of the Clause. He
  would not ask the Committee afterwards to enter upon the more controversial question contained in the next sub-Section, but he thought they should finish this paragraph before adjourning, so as to begin the second paragraph on Wednesday. He would consent to report progress as soon as the first Amendment to the second sub-Section was reached. They all admitted that the next sub-Section raised difficulties, but the difficulties in the first sub-Section had now been for the most part surmounted, and what he desired was that they should proceed to finish this part of the Clause in order that they might start with the second sub-Section on Wednesday. He did not think this was unreasonable, and he hoped the suggestion would be accepted.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he desired to call the Prime Minister's attention to the fact that there were certain hon. Members who served on Committees who won Id have to be in attendance at twelve o'clock in order to take part in the proceedings of the Committee, and under those circumstances he thought it was most unreasonable to expect hon. Members to continue the sitting. He had not the slightest sympathy with anything in the shape of obstruction, and he was quite as anxious to see this Bill passed into law as the Vice President of the Council. It was not. therefore, for the purpose of delaying the progress of this Bill that he appealed to the Prime Minister to have sonic consideration for those who had to attend Committees.
  (1.27.) Question put.
  The Committee divided: Ayes. 119; Noes, 169. (Division List No. 328.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Allen. Charles P.(Glone., Stroud

  Crean, Eugene

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Athsrley-Jones, L.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Gilhooly, James

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Black, Alexander William

  Delany, William

  Grant, Corrie

  Boland, John

  Devlin. Joseph

  Grev, Rt. hon. Sir E. (Berwick

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Brown, George M (Edin burgh

  Dillon, John

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hammond, John

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Harwood, George

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Dully, William. J.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Caldwell, James

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Edwards, Frank

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Farell. James Patrick

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Fenwick, Charles

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Claney, John Joseph

  Ffrench, Peter

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Jones, William (C'rnarvonshire

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Connor, James (Wieklow, W.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Labouchere, Henry

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W)

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  O'Malley. William

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  O'Mara, James

  Thomas, J A (Glam'rgan, Gower

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Partington, Oswald

  Toulmin, George

  Levy, Maurice

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Lough, Thomas

  Priestley, Arthur

  White, George (Norfolk)

  MacDonnell, Dr Mark A.

  Rea, Russell

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  MacNeill, John'Gordon Swift

  Reddy, M.

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  M'Kean, John

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wilson, Fred.W.(Norfolk. Mid.

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

  Moss, Samuel

  Roche, John

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Murnaghan, George

  Runciman, Walter

  Murphy, John

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—MR.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Herbert Gladstone and

  Norman, Henry

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lowe, Francis William

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Finch, George H.

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. Ellison

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry.

  Manners, Lord. Cecil

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Foster, PhilipS (Warwick, S. W.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'r'H'ml'ts

  Middlemore, Jno. Throgmorton

  Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.)

  Gore, Hn G. R. COrmsby-(Salop

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Milvain, Thomas

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Beresford, Lord Charles William

  Grenfell, William Henry

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Morgan, David J.(Walth'mstow

  Bigwood, James

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G(Midd'x

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Butcher, John George

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

  Carlile, William Walter

  Harris, Frederick, Leverton

  Murray. Charles J. (Coventry

  Cavendish, V. C.W. (Derbyshire

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset. E.

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt, Wellesley

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pryce-Jones, Lt. -Col. Edward

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Purvis, Robert

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Randles, John S.

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Renwick, George

  Cranborne. Lord

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Ritcie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Keswick, William

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Davenport, William Bromley

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lawson, John Grant

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh' m

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Seel'y, Maj J. E. F. (Isle of Wight

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Smith,. James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Darning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)

  Dyke Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

  Stanley Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  1496

  1497

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Warr. Augustus Frederick

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn.E. R. (Bath

  Strut, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Welby, Lt -Col. A. C. E. (Ta'nt'n

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  William's. Colonel R. (Dorset)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Tnfnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Sir William Walrond and

  Valentia, Viscount

  Willox, Sir. John Archibald

  Mr. Anstruther.

  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid he moved the Amendment standing in his name in order that County Councils should have better opportunities of consulting local feeling. The Bill practically provided that the nomination of managers should be in the hands of the county councillor for the district, and this was placing a very large piece of patronage in the hands of a single individual. It was not right for one particular individual to have the power of appointing a majority of that body which have hitherto been known as the School Board for the district. He thought that was an argument which would commend itself to the common sense of the Committee as a whole. His suggestion was that the minor authority should have the right to submit eight names to the major local authority. The minor authority had the best experience to enable them to make an impartial selection. He did not suggest that they should have the actual selection and appointment, but he thought they should be entitled to frame a list and submit it to the County Council in order that they might select four names. The result would be that they would secure the appointment of a better class of men, who would be more likely to attend to their work and do it more efficiently than others who might be selected from outside districts. He thought this alternative contained in his Amendment was infinitely the best thing to do in the interests of the schools, and he hoped the Government would accept the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In line 3, after the word 'four,' to insert the words 'selected from eight names submitted by the minor local authority and.'"—(Mr. Herbert Lewis.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION (Sir JOHN GORST,)said this Amendment was inconsistent with the spirit of what had already been decided. The Committee had already determined that the majority of the Board of Managers should he appointed by the local authority, and to introduce this extremely complicated Amendment would give the minor authority a sort of control which would be inconsistent with the spirit of the decision to which the Committee had already come. He did not think the Amendment would be of any use whatever, because no doubt the local authority,; before making its appointments, would consult local feeling in the matter; and he contended that the making of a formal recommendation of eight names from which the local authority must 'select four was contrary to the decision which the Committee had already come to, and it would introduce more complicated machinery into the management of the schools.
  *MR. CHANNINGsaid he thought that this Amendment was a moderate suggestion as a compromise between the view they wished to support on the previous Amendment and the views of His Majesty's Government. This Amendment and the preceding one, which had been discussed at some length affected his own constituency perhaps more than any other point remaining in the Bill. He should like the right hon. Gentleman to throw a little more light on the meaning of various parts of this Bill as bearing upon this question. The First Lord of the Treasury made no allusion whatsoever to Clause 15, and what was contemplated under that Clause in this Bill. Under that clause there might be the largest devolution of

  1499
  duties and powers of the County Council in respect of elementary education to the minor authorities. What they now had to decide depended largely on what would really be done under Clause 15. The position in his own division was practically this. He had in his constituency a number of minor local authorities, and in each district they had a highly efficient School Board. There would be in these districts a large number of men and women highly qualified by experience on the School Boards and especially men who directly represented labour, who would make most efficient managers of schools. He thought the Committee had reason to complain of the attitude of the Government towards this and the previous Amendments. In the Bill of 1896 it was actually contemplated that these minor authorities should compulsorily be made the authority to appoint the managers to deal with the schools. Even with the present Bill, destructive as it was of the local autonomy which was of such vital importance to the efficiency of education, secondary education had been conceded to the minor authorities. And as to elementary education, a considerable possibility of delegation to these authorities was contemplated. It was extremely hard, therefore, that the Government should refuse to assent to the moderate proposal now before the Committee. The Amendment in no sense gave a dictatorial power to the minor authority, it merely claimed the right for the local authorities, who knew the qualifications of suitable persons, to suggest a list of names from which the selection might be made, and it, was very unreasonable that the claim should be denied.
  MR. BROADHURSTsaid that the Vice President seemed to think that the proposal would involve an innovation in local government. That was not at all the case. As a County Councillor, how was he to know the best men for this purpose in the 700 parishes of Norfolk? A list from the local authorities would be of immense assistance. For instance, a constable had to be appointed for every parish. The Parish or Urban Council sent up three or four names to the Petty Sessional Court to assist the
  1500
  magistrates in their selection. As a magistrate, he assured the Committee that the list was of the greatest possible assistance. If that was the case in one petty sessional division, how much more would it be so where 700 parishes were concerned The Amendment did not suggest that the local authority should appoint the men, but simply that they should submit a list from which the selection might be made; and, speaking from many years' experience of District, Urban, and County Council and magisterial work, he thought the list would be a real aid to the County Council.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTpointed out that in the case of a parish sending one County Councillor, if there was no list the Practical effect would be that that County Councillor would have a very considerable voice as to who were to be the four. It was, therefore, desirable that some suggestion should be made to the Council, and the County Council would probably send down to ask for suitable names. Under these circumstances he thought this was a most reasonable Amendment, and he should certainly support it.
  MR. RUNCIMANsaid they wished the minor local authority to have the right to name the people who would be the most efficient managers of their schools. He could hardly think the Vice President of the Council was serious; when he said that this Amendment would complicate the educational machinery of the district. Nothing could be simpler than to select eight names, one or two of which he hoped would be women, and the County Council could easily select from them a: Management Committee. He thought the County Councils would have the utmost difficulty in obtaining a sufficient number of managers to form these Committees. He knew one great area where the County Council would have to select 5,000 managers to satisfy the scheme proposed by the First Lord of the Treasury. He thought the Committee would agree that the selection of 5,000 managers was a Herculean task. That was an impossible number for a County Council to select without the assistance of the minor local authority.

  1501
  He thought this was not an unreasonable effort to improve the Bill by combining local feeling and interest for the efficient management of the schools in the various localities.
  (2.3.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 109; Noes, 161. (Division List No. 329.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Allen. Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Hammond, John

  Priestley, Arthur

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Rea, Russell

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Reddy, M.

  Black, Alexander William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Boland, John

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Caldwell, James

  Joyce, Michael

  Roche, John

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Levy, Maurice

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lloyd-George, David

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Crean, Eugene

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cremer, William Randal

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Delany, William

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower

  Devlin, Joseph

  M'Kean, John

  Toulmin, George

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Dillon. John

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Moss, Samuel

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Duffy, William J.

  Murnaghan, George

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Murphy, John

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Norman, Henry

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Fenwick, Charles

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Ffrench, Peter

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Malley, William

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  O'Mara, James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Partington, Oswald

  Mr. Herbert Lewis and

  Grant, Corrie

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Mr. Runciman.

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (D'rbyshire

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (M'nc'r

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Finch, George H.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (W're'r

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Arrol, Sir William

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Clive, Capt. Percy A.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'ml'ts

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r.

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Gore, Hn. GRC. Ormsby- (Salop

  Balfour, Capt. C. B.(Hornsey)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Cranborne, Lord

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Beresford, Lord Chas. William

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Bignold, Arthur

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hamilton, Rt Hn L'rdG. (Midd'x

  Bigwood, James

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Bond, Edward

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Butcher, John George

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Carlile, William Walter

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Hope, J, F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Hoult, Joseph

  More, Robert Jasper (Shr'pshire

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Sturt, Hou. Humphry Napier

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col.W. (Salop

  Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Keswick, William

  Mount, William Arthur

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (M'mn'th)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lawson, John Grant

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Vincent, Col. Sir CEH (Sheffield

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Pease Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick, N. S

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Purvis, Robert

  Webb. Colonel William George

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Randles, John S.

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. CE (Taunton

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Renwiek, George

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne

  Lowe, Francis William

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Williams, Colonel Rt. (Dorset)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. WG Ellison

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh.

  Smith, A bel H. (Hertford, East)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Smith, Hon W. F. D. (Strand)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Sir William Walrond and

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Mr. Anstruther.

  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEmoved—
  "To insert after 'Council,' in line 3, the words 'two of whom shall be members of that Council.' "
  He said this Amendment raised the question of popular control. If they could secure public control, he was satisfied that this Bill might become a workable measure, but if they failed to secure adequate public control he was satisfied that it would create considerable agitation in the country, and the education question would remain unsettled. What he proposed was that of the members who were appointed by the County Council on these local boards two should be members of the County Council. The Councils had to be elected, and the people would, therefore, place increased confidence In the managing bodies if a moiety of them were members of the Councils. They would feel that they bad some direct control over the managing bodies.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In line 3, after the word 'Council,' to insert the words, 'two of whom shall be members of that Council"—(Mr. Joseph A. Pease.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid it had been urged that the representation of the locality as apart from the County Council should be strengthened and increased. It was evident that if this Amendment were adopted it would have the opposite effect. This would compel the County Council to ignore, so far as some members of the body were concerned, the locality in which the school to be managed was situated. He thought it extremely probable that in the large number of cases the County Council or the education authority would appoint persons of local experience, but they would be absolutely prevented from doing so by this Amendment. This would be a limitation in the wrong direction. Whatever other limitations they put on the County Council, they ought not to prevent them selecting the persons who were cognisant with the locality.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEtrusted that his hon. friend would not press this Amendment to a division. It would not serve the purpose he had in view.
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid that in practical working it would be found that by grouping a large number of small parishes together, a body of six or eight individuals might be appointed as managers who could do a great deal more than look after the schools in one parish.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid he did not think the objection of the hon. Member for Carnarvon was serious. The Councillors on the bodies of managers would bring the County Council into conjunction with the local managers. In a few cases there might be a certain amount of grouping, but he did not think very much of that would be necessary to make the Amendment perfectly workable.
  MR. RUNCIMANasked his hon. friend to withdraw the Amendment. He held that it would be quite impracticable for a County Council like that of the West Riding of Yorkshire to appoint two of their number to be members of every managing Committee.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid that in counties which were smaller and less populous than the West Riding of Yorkshire it would be quite possible for the County Council to provide members for each of the managing bodies. He thought if the Amendment were accepted it would be
  quite possible to introduce on the Report, stage words excepting such counties as the West Riding.
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid he would bow to the feeling of the House and ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. JOSEPH WALTON, in moving the next Amendment, said it seemed to him only reasonable that there should be three members on the Board of Management elected by the minor local authority and he hoped the Prime Minister would see his way to accept the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In line 3, to leave out the word 'two,' and insert the word 'three.' "— (Mr. Joseph Walton.)
  Question proposed, "That the word; 'two' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid he hoped his hon. friend would not press his proposal, which, although technically in order, was asking the Committee to revise what had already been decided upon.
  (2.33.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 155 Noes, 102. (Division List No. 330)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Butcher, John George

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Carlile, William Walter

  Dyke, Rt Hn. Sir William Hart-

  Allhusen, Aug'tus H'nry Eden

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derb'shire

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J(Manc'r

  Arrol, Sir William

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

  Fielden, Edward Brocklchurst

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Charrington. Spencer

  Finch, George H.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick SW

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Colston, Chas. Ed. H. Athole

  Gardner, Ernest

  Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fred'k

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'r Hml'ts

  Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Gore, Hn. G.R.C.Ormsby- (Salop

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Beresford, Lord Charles Willi'm

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Bigwood, James

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Guest, Hon. 'Ivor Churchill

  Bond, Edward

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Douglas, Rt. Hen A. Akers

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Mid'x.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh'm

  Mount, William Arthur

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Jessel, Captain H'bert Merton

  Murray Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Keswick, William

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Vincent, Col Sir CEH (Sheffield

  Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Lawrence, Sir Jos'ph (Monm'th

  Pease, Herb't Pike (Darlington

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE. (Taunton

  Lawson, John Grant

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

  Purvis, Robert

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Randles, John S.

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Lockwood, Lt. -Col. A. R.

  Renwick, George

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wilson, A Stanley (York, E. R.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Lucas, Col, Francis (Lowest oft)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Macartney, Rt Hn. W G. Ellison

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Sir William Walrond and

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Massey Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Hammond, John

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Priestley, Arthur

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  Rea, Russell

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Reddy, M.

  Black, Alexander William

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Boland, John

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jones, William (C'rnarvonshire

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Joyce, Michael

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.

  Caldwell, James

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Roche, John

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Runciman, Walter

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Levy, Maurice

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lloyd-George, David

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Crean, Eugene

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Cremer, William Randal

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Dalziel, James Henry

  M'Kean, John

  Thomas, Sir A. (Glamorgan, E.

  Delany, William

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

  Devlin, Joseph

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Toulmin, George

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Trevelyan Charles Philips

  Doogan, P. C.

  Moss, Samuel

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Duffy, William J.

  Murnaghan, George

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Murphy, John

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Norman, Henry

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Fenwick, Charles

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Ffrench, Peter

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Malley, William

  Gladstone, Rt Hn Herbert John

  O'Mara, James

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Partington, Oswald

  Mr. Joseph Walton and

  Grant, Corrie

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Sir Brampton Gurdon.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Pease, J, A. Saffron Walden)

  Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn,"—(Sir William Walrond)— put, and agreed to.

  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid the reason for the Amendment he now moved was that from experience it had been found that where there were two or more governing bodies, which bad to make appointments, they had to prescribe that which was to make the appointment.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In line 3, after the word 'two,' to insert the word 'subsequently.'" — (Mr. Herbert Lewis.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'subsequently' be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURhoped the hon. Gentleman would not press his Amendment, because he did not see how it would work in all cases, although it might work in some; and it would raise all sorts of legal difficulties.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that it was important that one of these bodies should appoint the managers first, and it should be made a statutory direction as to which should make the first appointment.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid that, with the consent of the Committee, he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *MR. CORRIE GRANT, in explaining his next Amendment, said he thought some words were necessary in order to make it perfectly clear what the position was of the county boroughs and of the Councils of the urban districts.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "In line 2, after the first 'managers,' insert 'to whom the local education authority may from time to time delegate such of their powers and under such conditions as they think fit. It shall consist.'"—(Mr. Corrie Grant.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the proposed Amendment."
  SIR ROBERT FINLAYsaid that the words were absolutely unnecessary, as the Clause provided that if the local authorities did not think fit to appoint managers, they must manage the schools themselves.
  *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid he bowed always to so distinguished a legal authority, and he withdrew his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEmoved to report progress.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he would accept the Motion, provided that on the morrow no pressure was put on that side of the House.
  Committee report progress; to sit again upon Wednesday.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Adjourned accordingly at Three o'clock a.m.
PR IVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order).
  Amendments agreed to.
  Amendment moved—
  "After sub-clause (5.) to insert the following new sub-clause:—'(6.) The corporation shall within five years from the commencement of the said Order, establish within the Garston District a public library and public baths.'"—(Earl Waldegrave.)
  LORD NEWTON: This Amendment seems to me a very important one. It involves an interference with municipal local autonomy, and I think the House is entitled to some explanation before accepting it.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Duke of DEVONSHIRE): I regret that the noble Lord in charge of the Bill is not present today, and that we can give no information. The explanation which the noble Lord desires will, however, be given on the Report Stage.
  LORD NEWTON: I hope the explanation will be forthcoming at the next stage, but I cannot help expressing the opinion that this is an extremely slovenly way of conducting business. If a noble Lord undertakes to look after anything so vulgar and commonplace as the Local Government Board, he should either be in his place to explain his Amendments, or depute some other member of the Government who would condescend to come here and make the explanation for him.
  EARL WALDEGRAVE: The noble Lord who represents the Local Government Board in this House is, I am sorry to say, unwell. I may point out, however, that the Amendment has been agreed to by the opponents of the Bill.
  LORD NEWTON: Unless the Government give me an assurance that an explanation will be forthcoming at the next stage, I shall move the adjournment.
  EARL SPENCER: I do think that if the noble Lord who represents the Local Government Board is ill, some one should be entrusted with these Amendments who is able to explain them. It is derogatory to the dignity of this House that no one is able to explain an Amendment of this kind when it is moved.
  THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The explanation shall be given on the Report stage.
  Amendment agreed to; Standing Committee negatived; Report of Amendments to be received Tomorrow.

  LONDON UNITED TRAMWAYS BILL.
  The King's consent signified; and Bill reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
  FELIXSTOWE AND WALTON IM PROVEMENT BILL [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (MONEY) BILL.
  Read 3a and passed.
  GARSTON AND DISTRICT TRAMWAYS AND ELECTRIC SUPPLY (TRANSFER) BILL.
  Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  HULL, BARNSLEY, AND WEST RIDING JUNCTION RAILWAY AND DOCK (SOUTH YORKSHIRE EXTENSION LINES) BILL.
  Read 3a, with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
  WEARDALE AND SHILDON DISTRICT WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments. The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  RICHMOND HILL (PRESERVATION OF VIEW) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments.
  LONDON AND INDIA DOCKS (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL.
  Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL, LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 12) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order). Amendments made; Standing Committee negatived; Report of Amendments to be received tomorrow.
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 1) BILL.
  Read 3a (according to order), with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  NATIONAL EXPENDITURE (No. 167).
  Reports, etc., of the Select Committees of the House of Commons, communicated (pursuant to Message of Friday last), and to be printed.
  CHARITABLE DONATIONS AND BEQUESTS (IRELAND).
  Fifty-seventh annual Report of the Commissioners.

  RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.
  General Report to the Board of Trade upon the accidents that have occurred on the railways of the United Kingdom during the year 1901.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  LUNACY.
  Return to the Lord Chancellor of the number of visits made and the number of patients seen by the, several Commissioners in Lunacy during the six months ended 30th June, 1902.
  SUPERANNUATION.
  Return for the year ended 31st March, 1902, of the Army and Navy officers permitted, under Rule 2 of the regulations drawn up under Section 6 of the Superannuation Act, 1877, to hold civil employment of profit under public Departments.
  ASSIZES ACTS, 1876 TO 1879.
  Order in Council of 26th July, 1902, directing that the town of Cardiff shall, for the summer assizes, 1902, be the place where assizes are holden in and for the county of Glamorgan.

  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Accounts of the receipts and expenditure of the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland, for the year ended 31st December, 1901, together with the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  POST OFFICE SITES BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order). Bill reported, without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a tomorrow.

  LICENSING BILL.
  Amendments reported (according to order).
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords, I desire to call attention to Clause 5, as amended in Committee, which provides that, instead of an order in pursuance of paragraph (a)—i.e., that the applicant should be no longer bound to cohabit with his wife—the Court may, with the consent of the wife, order her to be committed to and detained in an inebriates' home. It does appear to me to be common sense that this should be done with the consent of the husband. This is a grave matter, reaching down to the very roots of domestic life; and it seems to me your Lordships ought to consider carefully before you insert such a provision without the safeguard I have suggested. It is impossible to imagine a greater curse than a drunken wife, and the Clause is apparently meant to give the husband relief from the curse. I do not speak as an expert, but the common notion is that intemperance in a woman, when once it has taken a hold of her, is an incurable disease. Instead, however, of giving permanent relief to the husband from this hideous companionship, the section merely gives him temporary relief by relegating the wife to an inebriates' asylum, from which she may emerge at any moment, only partially or temporarily cured, and go back to her home and family. Does it seem, under these circumstances, too much to ask that the consent of the husband should be added to that of the wife in connection with the order?
  LORD BELPER: I will take care that what the noble Earl has said shall be brought before the Home Secretary, and the point will be considered. I would point out, however, that the proviso was inserted for the purpose of allowing time to elapse, if the married woman consented, before a decree of judicial separation was issued. It is not for the purpose of taking the place of the separation order, but rather a step to see what can be done to prevent a home from being broken up. It may be that after a year or two in an inebriates' reformatory the woman may be cured, and then, of course, the husband may be able to live with her again.
  1334
  I do not know if it will meet the view of the noble Lord, but I have an Amendment to propose giving the Court power, where a woman gives her consent, to remove her to a retreat.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBUHY): I think the objection made by the noble Earl is not an unreasonable one. Of course, where the application is made on behalf of the husband as against the wife, the magistrate must hear the husband's views. He may then make one of several orders set out in the Clause, and if it appeared evident that the wife was such a habitual drunkard that the domestic home could not continue, the magistrate would be entitled to make a separation order. The policy of the section is to leave it free to the magistrate to make such order as he thinks appropriate to the occasion. In as much as the application has to be made by the husband, it seems to me that, though not removing the objection of the noble Earl, it considerably mitigates it.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I want to make my meaning clear. I cannot quite understand that the noble Lord is justified in saying that this section is only to form part of the general enactment provided in the earlier part of the Bill. I do not think that anything the noble and learned Earl has said would conflict with the words I should like to see introduced. What the noble and learned Earl has said is entitled to the J greatest respect, and I do not wish for a moment to put my judgment against his in such a matter. But it seems to me to give an option—an absolute option—to the magistrate or judge making an order; and I want that option to be made after the statement of the husband and with the consent of the husband. I do not think that anything in the words suggested by the Home Office conflicts with that view, because if the words "of the husband and" were inserted it would make the point more clear, and would guard against the danger which I think is apparent.
  LORD JAMES OF HEREFORD: I think there are serious consequences attaching to the suggestion of the noble Earl. He is making the husband judge in this matter. It is very often a contest between the husband and the wife; and

  1335
  instead of a discretion being exercised whether or not there should be a separation or whether the wife should be sent to a retreat, the noble Earl suggests that the husband should be predominant in the question, and should be able to say, "Without my consent my wife shall not go to a house of retreat." This power may be exercised under a feeling of hostility, and may be most injurious to the interests of the wife. If there is to be this separation it is alone just towards the husband, but it places the wife in a sad position. She becomes an outcast in the world. Who is to look after her future? Her life must become that of an outcast; and in order to prevent this result, this proviso has been introduced.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I would point out to the noble and learned Lord that the suggestion no more makes the man a judge in the matter than he is in the earlier part of the Clause, because, after all, the whole effect of the Clause hinges on the application of the husband, and I am anxious only to put him in the same position with regard to this last sub-section as he is in the first. The noble and learned Lord the Chancellor of the Duchy expressed his sympathy for the drunken wife. I am certainly sorry for the wife, but I am more sorry, for the husband. Let the wife, if necessary, remain in the inebriates' retreat; she has broken up the home: it is she who should pay the penalty—not the husband.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Subsection 2 deals with the habitual drunken wife. I should like to ask why there is no similar proviso with regard to subsection 1, which deals with the habitual drunken husband.
  LORD BELPER: I think the answer is that the wife and husband are in a somewhat different position, and it is not necessary in the case of the husband, while it may be desirable in the case of the wife. The point has not been raised before, and I will inquire into it.
  Formal Amendment, giving the Court power to remove a woman, with her consent, to a retreat, agreed to.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I understand the noble Lord will pay attention
  1336
  to the suggestion I have made between this and the Third Reading stage?
  LORD BELPER: Certainly.
  THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: Perhaps the noble Lord will look at subsection 1 at the same time?
  LORD BELPER: Certainly.
  LORD BURGHCLERE: I desire to put a question on Clause 25, on the section which was added in the Standing Committee with regard to certain privileges to be given to clubs at Oxford. Will the clubs at Cambridge enjoy the same privileges?
  THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I have made inquiries of the University of Cambridge as to whether they desire a similar Amendment to be inserted applying to that university. I find that they have no such desire, it being the policy of the University of Cambridge to allow the privileges to lapse.
  Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

  PUBLIC LIBRARIES (IRELAND) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order). Bill reported without Amendment; and recommitted to the Standing Committee.

  EDUCATION ACT, 1901, RENEWAL BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: The object of this Bill is to extend the "Cockerton" Act, making legal the instruction in evening continuation schools for a further period of twelve months. It is a Bill of only one Clause, and it passed without opposition through the other House.
  "Moved, That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Earl of Northbrook.)
  EARL SPENCER: I do not rise to oppose the Second Reading; it is essential that the Bill should be passed. But an assurance has been given in the other House on the part of the Government that where a school in a particular locality is transferred to a neighbouring

  1337
  locality this will be allowed. I understand, however, that when the Bill came to be examined it was found that there was no real power to do so, and I am anxious to hear that there is no intention to diminish the influence of the schools stopped by the Cockerton judgment, and that there will not be a deliberate interference with those schools in the event of their being carried on in another place.
  THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: I was not aware that any such assurance as the noble Earl refers to was given in another place last year. But it certainly is the fact, as the noble Earl has suggested, that the Act of last year has been administered in practice with considerable strictness by the Education Department, and it is not their intention during the next year to administer it with any unnecessary strictness. The reasons which made the Board administer the Act with some degree of strictness have entirely disappeared, and we believe that there will not be the slightest difficulty in enabling a school which is substantially the same school, but which may for reasons of convenience be transferred to another locality, to receive the grant and to continue its operation under the Act. That is the intention, not only of the Education Department, but also of the Local Government Board; and I am able to give the noble Earl the fullest assurance that it is the intention of these two Departments to administer the Act in the most liberal spirit possible.
  EARL SPENCER: I suppose the noble Duke will not be willing to introduce an Amendment to carry out that intention?
  THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: The noble Earl must be perfectly aware that, in the present condition of business, it would be very dangerous to send the Bill back to another place with any Amendments in it.
  On Question, agreed to. Bill read 2a accordingly; Committee negatived. Then Standing Orders Nos. xxxix. and xlv. considered (according to order) and dispensed with. Bill read 3a and passed.

  LIGHT LOAD LINE.
  Moved That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire and report—

  I. Whether, and, if so, to what extent, British ships are sent to sea in an unsea-worthy condition by reason of their being insufficiently or improperly ballasted;

  II. Whether any Amendment or amplification of the present law is desirable in connection therewith;

  III. If so, to what extent any such alteration of the law could be made equally applicable to foreign vessels.—(The Earl of Dudley).

  Agreed to; and ordered accordingly.
  House adjourned at five minutes past Five o'clock till tomorrow, half-past Ten o'clock.