Sitting of 1 July 1902

Preamble
The House met at Two of the clock.
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  BUXTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [LORDS] [KINGS CONSENT SIGNIFIED].
  Read the third time, and passed with Amendments.

  EDGWARE AND HAMPSTEAD RAILWAY BILL [LORDS] [BY ORDER].
  Read a second time and committed.
  Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Edgware and Hampstead Railway Bill [Lords] to insert, so far as practicable in the Bill, provisions to carry out the recommendations as to workmen's trains and fares contained in the Report of the Joint Committee of Session 1901 on Underground Railways, and to deal with railways promoted by different companies, but forming continous through routes, as one railway for these purposes.—(Sir John Dickson-Poynder.)

  COMMONS REGULATION (SODBURY) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Read a second time and committed.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have, agreed to, Oyster and Mussel Fishery Provisional Orders Bill, without Amendment; Leamington Corporation Bill; Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway (Steam Vessels) Bill; Kent Electric Power Bill, with Amendments.
  Amendments to, Rusthall Manor Bill [Lords] without Amendment.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against:—From North Salford; Foolow; and Luton; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Salehurst, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  NEW FOREST (SALE OF LANDS FOR PUBLIC PURPOSES) BILL.
  Petitions against alteration, praying to be heard by Counsel:—From George Edward Briscoe Eyre; R. W. S. Griffith and others; and the Commons and Footpaths Preservation Society; referred to the Select Committee on the Bill.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (NO. 5) BILL.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 30th June; Mr. Gerald Balfour]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 248.]
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 30th June; Mr. Gerald Balfour]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed, [No. 249.]
  DUBLIN METROPOLITAN POLICE.
  Copy presented of Statistical Tables for the year 1901 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  IRISH SALMON FISHERIES.
  Copy presented, of Return showing the relative value of private and public salmon fisheries in Ireland [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOARD OF EDUCATION.
  Copy presented, of Draft Order in Council modifying certain regulations contained in the schedule to the Order in Council of 6th March, 1902 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 250.]
  GREENWICH OBSERVATORY.
  Copy presented, of Report of the Astronomer Royal to the Board of Visitors of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  GREENWICH HOSPITAL AND TRAVERS' FOUNDATION.
  Copy presented, of Statement of the estimated Income and Expenditure of Greenwich Hospital and of Travers' Foundation for the year 1902–3 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 251.]
  UNIVERSITY COLLEGES (GREAT BRITAIN) (GRANT IN AID).
  Copy ordered, "of (i.) Treasury Minute of the 20th day of March, 1901; (ii.) the Reports of the 31st day of December, 1901 by the inspectors; (iii.) Treasury Minute of the 14th day of February, 1902; (iv.) the Report of the Committee dated the 10th day of June, 1902; and (v.) Treasury Minute, of the 16th day of June, 1902, relating to the Grant in Aid of University Colleges, Great Britain (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 245, of Session 1897)."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  South Africa—Chartered Company's Financial Statement for 1901.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will explain why the financial statements of the British South Africa Company for the year 1901 have not been laid upon the Table of this House, in accordance with the provisions of the Charter.
  (Answer.) I am expecting to receive shortly a financial statement for 1901, similar to those which I laid upon the Table in July, 1901, and will lay it as soon as I receive it.—(Colonial Office.)

  Chartered Company—Agreements with Imperial Government.
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if there are any financial or other agreements between the Government and the Chartered Company that are not disclosed in Parliamentary documents; and, if so, will he state the nature of such agreements; and whether there is any financial indebtedness from the Chartered Company to the British Government, or from the British Government to the Chartered Company at present existing; and, if so, will he give particulars.
  (Answer.) There is an agreement between the Government and the British South Africa Company for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of Clauses 13 and 14 of the Barotseland Order in Council, and an agreement between the British Central Africa Protectorate and the Company, in regard to the cost of the police in North-Eastern Rhodesia. I have no knowledge of any such indebtedness. There may possibly be some claims in respect of stores supplied to the War Office.—(Colonial Office.)

  Lough Swilly Railway—Burtonport Station Approach.
  MR. HUGH LAW: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the County Council of Donegal has expressed dissatisfaction with the proposed approach road to the new railway station at Burtonport, on the ground that it will, as at present planned, en-

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  croach upon the quay; and whether he will request the Board of Works to reconsider their plans in order, if possible, to avoid adding to the congestion of traffic along the quay.
  (Answer.) The approach road to Burtonport station which the Board of Works propose to construct, if funds are available, does not encroach upon the pier, and will not interfere with its traffic. It will be much cheaper than the road proposed by the County Council, and much more convenient for the inhabitants. It will be within the Parliamentary limits, and, being a necessary work, the Lough Swilly Railway Company will be bound to maintain it, whereas they could probably successfully dispute liability to maintain the alternative road. — (Irish Office.)

  Letterkenny and Burtonport Extension—Train Arrangements.
  MR. HUGH LAW: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that both passengers and mails are delayed by reason of the failure of the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company to connect their train leaving Letterkenny at 2.25 p.m. with any of the mail trains leaving Londonderry in the afternoon for Dublin and Belfast and cross-channel routes; whether, seeing that this company has undertaken to work the Letterkenny and Burtonport Extension, now being built out of public funds, the company will be required to give an undertaking to arrange their time table so as to ensure through connection between stations on the Burtonport line and the afternoon mail trains at Londonderry.
  (Answer.) I understand the facts are as stated in the first part of the Question. By Section 17 of the 62 & 63 Vic., cap. 50, the intervention of the new Department to consider and investigate complaints of this character is restricted to matters other than those affecting the Postmaster General. Under the circumstances perhaps the hon. Member will place himself in direct communication with the Department of the Postmaster General.—(Irish Office.)

  Review of Indian Troops—Accommodation for Members.
  MR. ARTHUR LEE: To ask the Secretary of
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  State for War whether, on the occasion of the review of Indian troops on Wednesday next, he will arrange to have a limited amount of standing room, behind the line of sentries, reserved for such Members of this House, accompanied by not more than one friend each, as may be unable to secure seats on the stands.
  (Answer.) I will do the best I can, with the limited accommodation at my disposal, to provide for the convenience of hon. Members.—(India Office.)

  Freservation of Big Game in Africa.
  MR. SETON-KARR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what regulations for the protection of big game in South Africa and British West Africa arc now in force; and if any game reserves have been established in those colonies; and, if so, will he state their locality and extent, and by what means is their sanctity enforced.
  (Answer.) Ordinances or Proclamations have been passed in each of the British West African Colonies and Protectorates for the protection of wild animals. Power is taken in these Ordinances or Proclamations to establish game reserves, but none have yet been constituted. Regulations under the Ordinances and Proclamations are being drawn up, and have been made in the Gold Coast on the 22nd of April last for the Colony, Ashanti, and the Northern Territories separately. References to the Ordinances and Proclamations are given below—

  Gambia Ordinance

  No.

  1

  of 1901

  Sierra Leone Ordinance

  No.

  30

  of 1901

  Gold Coast Ordinance

  No.

  2

  of 1901

  Lagos Ordinance

  No.

  15

  of 1900

  Southern Nigeria Proclamation

  No.

  8

  of 1901

  Northern Nigeria Proclamation

  No.

  15

  of 1901

  The present law of Cape Colony on the subject of game preservation is contained in Acts Nos. 36 of 1886, 38 of 1891, 24 of 1894, and 33 of 1899; that of Natal in Act No. 16 of 1891; that of Southern Rhodesia in Ordinance No. 6 of 1899; and that of the Bechuanaland Protectorate in the High Commissioner's Proclamation of the 19th September 1893. His Majesty's Government are in communication with the South African Governments with regard to the steps to be taken for carrying out the provisions of the Convention

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  for the Preservation of Wild Animals, etc., in South Africa, one of the provisions of which relates to the establishment, as far as possible, of reserves.—(Colonial Office.)

  Review of Colonial Contingents—Accommodation for Members.
  MR. H. C. RICHARDS: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will explain why the Military authorities allot an insufficient number of tickets to the Members of the Commons House of Parliament, whilst officials of the Government Departments are permitted a larger number of tickets.
  (Answer.) The distribution of tickets for the Review of this morning was entrusted to the Colonial Office, in order that Colonials might receive full share of the places. The arrangements had to be made under very great pressure, but Members of the House of Commons received about 300 tickets, which were distributed in the best manner that time permitted. I am not aware that officials of Government Departments received any large number of places.—(Colonial Office.)

  Education Bill—Financial Arrangements.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNER: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will, on an early day, put on the Paper the clause to be proposed to the Education (England and Wales) Bill to carry out the provision by which the counties should give aid to those districts in their areas which happen to be specially burdened.
  (Answer.) The Amendment to carry out the provision referred to was placed on the Paper on 23rd June. It will be found as an Amendment to insert after "charge," in Clause 13, page 5, line 36, the words "such portion as they think fit, not being less than one-half or more than three-quarters of," and a corresponding Amendment on the same clause and page, line 41.—(Treasury.)

(2.15.) QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Army Horse Purchasing.
  MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has
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  completed his consideration in respect of the purchase of Army horses, and, if so, can he now state, and will he publish, particulars of age, size, description, and approximate price to be paid; and whether he will be able to concede a little in point of age to lighten the expense of the breeder in keeping horses from three to five years of age.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO; THE WAR OFFICE (Lord STANLEY,): The consideration of the various questions connected with the purchase of horses is not yet completed. The age, size and description will be given all possible publicity but it is not considered advisable to make known the price. As regards the last part of the Question, this point will, amongst others, be borne in mind.
  MR. MANSFIELD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he has been able to arrange with the War-Office to give information from time to time to agriculturists and stock breeders regarding the requirements of the Remount Departments, particularly with respect to such points as direct sale to War Office agents, the kind and age of animals required, and some indication of the price which may be expected.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. HANBURY,): Yes, Sir, and a circular will very shortly be issued giving full information on these points.

  Egypt—Crime Among Native Population—The Capitulations.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, seeing that crime is increasing in Egypt, will he say whether any effort is being made to bring about a modification of the capitulations, and a decrease of crime.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,): The increase of crime reported in Lord Cromer's annual despatch has occurred among the native population and would not be affected in any material degree by a modification of the capitulations.

  Honduras—Case of John M'Guinne.
  MR. O'DOWD:beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state what facilities, if any, will be afforded by the Foreign Office to John M'Guinne, a native of Sligo and a British subject, in the prosecution of his claim against the Government of Honduras for false imprisonment and confiscation of his property.
  LORD CKANBORNE: As the hon. Gentleman is aware, we have not been able to support M'Guinne's claim to the full amount which he has put forward, but the steps which His Majesty's Government have taken in the matter are described in my letter to the hon. Member of the 13th of May. Pending their result no further action can be taken.

  Ventilation of the House of Commons.
  MR. WYLIE:beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works what steps, if any, have been taken to improve the ventilation and other sanitary arrangements of the House of Commons building during the last two months.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS,): The Committee recently appointed to report on the ventilation of the House is carefully considering the question, but has not yet finished its investigations. Most of the improvements in the Committee rooms, etc., for which provision was made in this year's Vote have been carried out, but the completion of the work has not been practicable while the business of the House has been going on.

  Scottish School Board Registers.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that a petition has recently been presented to this House from the County Council of Caithness, and also from the County Council of Haddington, in favour of the School Board Electorate (Scotland) Bill; and, seeing that this Bill seeks to redress the alleged grievances of thousands of householders, more especially in the Highland crofting counties, who at present have no vote at School Board elections by reason of their rentals being less than £4, will he consider the expediency of initiating legislation on the subject, or arrange for the Bill now before the House to receive the support of the Government.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): I am willing to assume the fact mentioned by the hon. Member in the first paragraph, but as has already been stated to the hon. Member it is not possible at present to legislate on the subject.

  Irish Fisheries—Roads Slip, County Kerry.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Congested Districts Board will carry out the necessary improvements on the slip at Roads, County Kerry, before the autumn fishing commences, in view of the impossibility of using the slip in its present condition.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The funds at present available for such works are all hypothecated to projects which were submitted at earlier dates. The Board regrets, therefore, it cannot favourably entertain the application mentioned in the Question.

  Inspection of Irish Boarded-out Children.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of lady inspectors recently appointed for the care of boarded - out children in Ireland, and the nature of the qualifications requisite for such inspectors; and how, or by what authority, are the appointments made.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The hon. Member appears not to be aware that several similar questions have already been put to me. I would refer him to my replies to the questions of the lion, and learned Member for North Louth, and the hon. Member for Queen's County, on the 28th May, and 26th June.

  United Irish League and Crimes Act Prosecutions.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has received copy of Resolution passed unanimously by the County Council of Queen's County, on the 10th June, expressing adhesion to the principles of the United Irish League, and

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  entering a protest against proceedings under the Criminal Law and Procedure (Ireland) Act; and, seeing that similar resolutions have been passed by other County and District Councils, whether the Government will consider the representations of those local public bodies.
  MR. WYNDHAM: No, Sir. But if the Question accurately describes the Resolution, I have to say that questions of policy are decided by the votes of Members in this House.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Has not a similar Resolution been adopted unanimously by the Cork County Council?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  Irish Ordnance Survey.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a new series of coloured ordnance survey maps for England, Scotland, and Wales, on the scale of four miles to the inch, has been prepared for publication; and, whether, seeing that provision has not been made for the, publication of a similar series for Ireland, he can state whether any representations have been made on the subject with a view to remedying this inequality; and, if so, what steps does he propose to take.
  MR. HANBURY: The hon. Gentleman has been misinformed. Provision has been made for the publication of a similar map for Ireland, but its completion had necessarily to await the revision of the one-inch survey. I hope, however, that the publication of the quarter-inch map may be begun next year.

  Limerick and Kerry Postal Arrangements.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that the Postmaster General received resolutions from the Chamber of Commerce and County Borough Council of Limerick condemning the present railway and postal arrangements in connection with
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  the Limerick and Kerry districts, on the ground that they are detrimental to the trade of the towns in those districts, as well as to that of the city of Limerick, and suggesting the necessity of coming to terms with the Great Southern and Western Railway Company; and, if so, will he state whether the Postmaster General intends to take any action in reference to this matter.
  MR. FLAVIN: I beg also to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he can state whether the Postmaster General has taken any steps to remedy the alleged grievances in the districts of Limerick and Kerry in respect to the carriage and delivery of mails.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): The Postmaster General has received copies of resolutions from the Chamber of commerce and the County Borough Council of Limerick respecting the railway and postal arrangements in the district served by the Limerick and Kerry Railway. It appears from the published time tables that the Railway Company intend on the 1st July to restore as far as Listowel the 10.15 a.m. train from Limerick, which was formerly used for the down day mail. Arrangements are accordingly being made for it to be used again for the mail service.

NEW BILLS.

  MARINE WORKS (IRELAND).
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,)said he desired to ask the leave of the House to introduce a measure, the main object of which was to give further facilities to the fishing population of the congested districts on the west coast of Ireland. It would also assist other industries such as the quarries near the west coast. As to its object, little need be said, for when they were discussing the operations of the Congested Districts Board on the 14th March there was a welcome consensus of opinion in all parts of the House that further facilities should be given to men who had shown such enterprise in the discharge of their

  425
  hazardous occupation, and so much honesty in the discharge of their obligations. But as the principles of the Bill involved a great many financial questions, it would be more convenient to discuss them when the terms of the Bill were in the hands of hon. Members. In 1883 the charge of maintaining harbours in Ireland was transferred from the Exchequer to the local bodies. On the west coast of Ireland the rating problem had a most forbidding aspect, and one consequence of the change had been that useful works had fallen into disrepair. Another was that it had been impossible to construct out of the rates works which ought to have been constructed. Since 1883 a large portion of the Irish Church surplus—a sum of £250,000—had been devoted to the construction of harbours; but it was hastily allocated in the absence of the experience which had since been gained. The Irish Congested Districts Board had since 1891 administered a small annual grant for these purposes; and, thanks to the devotion of their Fishery Commissioner, and the enterprise of the fishermen on the west coast, their efforts had been crowned with conspicuous and continued success. While spending some money on smaller schemes, the Board had wisely concentrated itself in the main on those spots which combined natural facilities with professional aptitude on the part of the population. He could best tell the House the nature of the success achieved by the Board and still more by the fishermen by reminding hon. Members that last year was a very stormy one on the west coast, and it would be natural to expect less success in the fishery; but in the Isle of Arran, which used to be a byword of poverty, the spring net fishing brought in over £3,000; and in the autumn herring! fishery of Donegal,£35,000 was won from the sea. These, the highest figures yet attained, were reached in an inclement year. In earlier years the Congested Districts Board not only assisted by giving instruction and advancing money, but also bought and cured the catches of fish. But now the work was done on an economic basis. For the last five years there had been independent buyers, and last season there were forty curing stations, and
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  five kippering stations. There were also many local buyers and curers of fish in Mayo, Donegal, and Galway; last year £34,000 was paid in wages among 2,651 fishermen, and £4,000 to 824 persons occupied in subsidiary work on shore. But the Board could not find capital out of income to improve harbours; nor could the capital be found out of rates which were already in many places up to 8s. and 10s. in the pound. There was therefore a claim for further assistance to these fishermen, who had often borrowed £300 or.£400 to purchase larger boats and more expensive gear. This they had done on the advice of a Government Department, and they might justly ask for security against a danger physical and financial which the absence of adequate harbour accommodation might involve. The methods by which the Bill sought to obtain its objects might be divided under two heads—construction and maintenance, In respect of construction the Bill provided, without sinking fund or interest, an absolute free grant of £100,000 for works to be agreed on between the Irish Government and the counties concerned. As to maintenance, the past afforded a sad experience, and the Bill submitted a new plan. What was necessary was the stitch in time to prevent dilapidations from increasing. The Government believed that maintenance could be best effected by constant expert inspection, and could be best defrayed out of what might be called an insurance fund. At the present moment the liability for the maintenance of such works rested upon the counties in Ireland. The duty would still rest on the district interested. The plan in the Bill was that the contribution should be given towards this maintenance and insurance fund by agreement between the counties and the Government. Any toll on merchants using these harbours would go to reduce the county contribution towards the insurance fund. If the tolls covered the whole fund, then no charge would rest on the county. The normal contribution was placed at 1½per cent, on the capital devoted to constructive work, but as soon as the maintenance and insurance fund reached £6,000, the security was, in the opinion of the Government, ample to the contribution, which would be

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  then diminished or discontinued. The Bill provided that a higher amount than 1½ per cent, should be given, but this would be abnormal and would only come into operation if a group of counties thought it wise to embark on some large project which exposed them to more than the usual risks. The Bill was drawn to assist the population of the congested districts, and the free grant appertained to them. But the hon. and gallant Member for West Clare, and the hon. Member for East Clare, had often drawn his attention to Liscannor Harbour. He had visited that harbour, which was in the county of Clare, but just outside the limit of the Act of 1891. Of the cost of putting the harbour, into a proper condition, a sum representing two-thirds would be contributed out of the free grant, but the remaining third would have to be provided by persons interested in the locality—persons for instance who were to a large extent interested in the quarrying industry in that county. As to the financial scheme generally, he would take the case of four typical counties, Donegal, Mayo, Galway and Clare. A 1d. rate levied on the whole of those counties would produce £5,900, more than the l½d. per cent, required on the £100,000 grant; indeed it almost touched the limit of the maintenance and insurance fund. By a ½d. rate the required sum could be provided in two years. It was not proposed, however, to bind the counties to a universal county rate, but if they rated the seaboard rural districts alone, 1d. rate would give more than £1,500, that was to say more than the 1½ per cent. required, and in four years the reserve fund would be created. Still he considered the county rate preferable, for the burden would then fall more lightly on the ratepayers.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid he gathered from what had been stated by the right hon. Gentleman that an opportunity would be given for adequate discussion on the Second Beading. It would be absurd to expect that the Bill should pass to the Committee without discussion. He had listened with great attention to the
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  right hon. Gentleman, and he was bound to say he thought that the measure had been materially changed from the early draft which he had been privileged to see. Indeed he thought it had been considerably improved, but until the Bill was seen in print it would be impossible to express a definite opinion upon it. As to the objects the right hon. Gentleman had in view, everybody would be in agreement with them, and the only criticism he would now make on the matter, the amount of money proposed seemed to be very small, considering the enormous sums that were being expended in this country on education and other purposes. It would be a wise step to extend the principle of the free grant irrespective of the limits of the Congested Districts Board to all places where a fair ease could be made out for assistance of this character. He did not think it would be fair either to himself or to the right hon. Gentleman to say anything further at present. He was quite satisfied with the assurance he had received that there should be an adequate opportunity for the discussion of the Bill on the Second Reading and he would wait until he saw it in print before saying any more.
  Bill to facilitate the execution and maintenance of marine works in Ireland; and for other like purposes, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Wyndham, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.

  MARINE WORKS (IRELAND) BILL.
  "To facilitate the execution and maintenance of marine works in Ireland; and for other like purposes," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 260.]
  LANDS VALUATION (SCOTLAND) AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
  "To amend the Lands Valuation (Scotland) Acts in regard to the law relating to the rating of machinery," presented by Mr. Renshaw, under Standing Order 31; supported by Sir John Leng, Mr. M'Crae, Mr. Bonar Law, Mr. Ure, Mr. Nicol, Mr. Craig, and Colonel Denny; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 9th July, and to be printed. [Bill 261.]

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.
  Clause 3:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 2, line 1, to leave out from the word 'district,' to the word 'shall,' in line 3."—(Mr. Henry Hothouse.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid that there was a very widespread desire to secure the omission of the power of adoption from the Clause.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I think the point raised by the hon. Member should be dealt with under Clause 5.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELL:am protesting against the retention of the word "adoption," and I wish to point out to the Committee that from communications I have received—
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The real point is whether non-county boroughs or urban districts are to have the powers proposed in Clause 3, or whether they are to be limited to the boroughs and urban districts mentioned in Clause 1.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid he desired to make an appeal to the Government to accept the Amendment. There was singular unanimity inside and outside of the House for leaving out these words. What object could there be in throwing, so to say, cold water upon the good will of any urban authority which was willing to rate itself for the purposes of the Act? This matter had an important bearing on the provision in the second Clause, transferring to the local education authority property rights and liabilities incurred under the Technical Instruction Acts. If the Section were passed with these words in it, it meant that
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  any urban authority with a population below 10,000, and any non-county borough with a population of less than 20,000, would not only be deprived of their rights in regard to the future, but also of any property they might have acquired by spending money in the past. Ho could not but think that that was an extraordinary proposal to be made, especially by a Conservative Government. He knew a number of urban authorities that had built technical institutes, or had joined with the County Council in doing so, and why should Parliament step in and deprive them of their property, handing it over to an authority which did not want to receive it. A good deal had been heard about the apathy of the rural districts and the smaller towns in the cause of education. He thought there was a good deal more public spirit in those districts than some hon. Members imagined. He listened with gratitude to the spirited defence of them by the hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs, and he agreed that they ought to do everything they could to keep up the existing state of things. As far as be knew, there was absolute unanimity between the County Councils and the Municipal Boroughs in this matter, both bodies having passed resolutions 'asking the Government to withdraw the restriction of the Clause.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,)confessed that the atmosphere of the House was strangely different from what it was when the Government were fighting the serried phalanx of the Opposition over the first Clause. Everybody would admit that the Clause as it stood made the Bill more symmetrical than would be the case if the Amendment were accepted, but he entirely agreed with the noble Lord that what they had to consider was not symmetry but the practical working of the Bill. Now the County Councils, as represented by the chairmen of three County Councils who had taken part in this debate, were all perfectly clear that by giving these powers to the smaller boroughs and urban districts there would be no derogation in any way from the position of the County, Councils; and, that being, so, there evidently could be no objection from the Goverment point of view to giving those powers. That would have this immense advantage, that it

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  added to the amount available for secondary education. Great complaint was made yesterday that the 2d. rate allowed by the Bill would prove insufficient for the needs of secondary education in districts outside the limits of the County Councils. If there was any foundation for that charge, it was greatly diminished by leaving the power to rate themselves. The only danger he could imagine was that there might be friction between them and the County Council; but if the chairmen of County Councils were themselves quite clear that it was to their interest that the Amendment should pass, that they would find it not more difficult but easier to work with those smaller boroughs, then he thought it would be a very imprudent thing for the Government to resist their view. In these circumstances he was ready to accept the Amendment.
  MR. BRYCEsaid he had heard with great pleasure the statement of the First Lord of the Treasury. He was glad the right hon. Gentleman showed so open a mind. It was not necessary for him to repeat the arguments, but, in order to illustrate how it would work, ho might say that there were a great many small towns which possessed grammar schools, which in many cases had fallen into decay. The power now proposed to be given would encourage those small towns to renovate those grammar schools and put them on their legs again. It was most desirable to stimulate local interest; and nothing could do so more than to enable the authorities of small areas to exercise the power of rating themselves for the sake of establishing their own centres of secondary education. There was no reason why the general organisation of secondary education all over the country should not go on in perfect harmony with what had been done in local areas. Ho was, therefore, very glad that the Government had accepted the Amendment.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that before the Amendment was accepted he would like to point out that there was very little left of the "one authority" principle which was said to underlie the Bill. The Government had now effectively got rid of their great principle of "one authority." It was a perfect
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  sham now to say that this was a Bill to establish one authority for education, be regretted that the Amendment had been accepted, and thought it a mistake. He was not at all sure that it would increase the amount available for secondary education, as the Leader of the House stated. Let them take the case of Stockton. That borough ought to get £1,300 as its share of the whisky money. But the borough rated itself to the extent of a halfpenny for its schools and received from the County Council only some £300. The danger was that the County Councils would act in a similar way under this clause, and the effect would be that the urban areas would be rated—as had been the case since this Government came into power—for the purpose of relieving the rates in the country districts. The effect of this alteration would also be to diminish the pressure which might otherwise be brought to bear upon the County Councils by the people—to do their duty in regard to secondary education. The representatives of the urban areas on the County Councils might fight for a rate for higher education, but the rural representatives would be able to meet them with the answer, "If you want a school you can rate yourselves to pay for it." He was afraid the effect would be prejudicial to a general system of secondary education. Under the Amendment the country would be cut up into 400 or 500 autonomous areas, each of which would run its own schools, as it thought best. That, he thought, would be a great misfortune for education. The Amendment also completely shattered the system of one authority, which was set up by the Bill.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid notwithstanding what had been said it was true there had been considerable friction between the County Councils and non-county boroughs as to the allocation of the whiskey moneys, but he believed the acceptance of this Amendment would lead to a great deal more desirable co-operation between County and non-County Borough Councils in education matters. It would also enable each district, acting on its own initiative, to consult its own needs as to the industrial education particularly suited to it. He had before him the

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  case of Ripon—an agricultural community in the great manufacturing West Riding—which he was sure, by acting on its own initiative, would be able the better to meet its needs and to promote its own education and industries. Even if the symmetry of the Bill had been sacrificed to some extent by the Amendment, the latter was, from the local educational point of view, a practical one, and would preserve arid promote, instead of destroying, much of the best educational work, and the point as to one educational authority was theoretical and academic and at variance with the proviso to Clause 2 of the Bill itself.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERjoined in the thanks to the Government for having accepted the Amendment. In his own constituency there were four towns which possessed excellent technical schools, two of them personal gifts by Sir Joseph Vardin, to the two towns in the neighbourhood of which he had made his great fortune. It would be a great hardship to these towns to prevent them keeping up their own schools, of which they were so proud, and in which the inhabitants took so keen an interest. The effect of the acceptance of the Amendment would be extremely wholesome in the country, but he hoped the First Lord of the Treasury would make clear what the position of those schools would be in the future. They were worked under the Technical Instruction Act which was to be repealed. They would henceforward work under the guidance and supervision of the County Council. The County Council now gave grants and appointed managers. It was desired that state of things should continue which would preserve to a considerable extent the idea of one authority.
  MR. McKENNA, speaking as one who had been converted by the eloquence of the First Lord, pointed out that in the early stage of the Bill the right hon. Gentleman had stated that to divorce primary from secondary education was to throw money into the sea. The right hon. Gentleman the day after ho made that speech accepted Amendments which tended more and more to that separation; and the Amendment now before the House completed the divorce. Small boroughs
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  and districts which could not be trusted with primary education were to be trusted with secondary education, while larger boroughs and districts which might be trusted with primary education could not ho entrusted with secondary education. That might be wholly consistent with the leading principle of the Bill that there should be one authority, and it might be perfectly plain to the right hon. Gentleman, but to his humble intelligence it was quite incomprehensible.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Hear, hear.
  MR. WHITLEYasked if Section 2 of the Second Schedule would disappear, and the rights of authorities to existing properties remain with them. It would be rather peculiar if they were to be given the light to rate themselves for the maintenance of certain institutions, when their property in those institutions was transferred to the County Council.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member had better wait until that point of the Bill is reached.
  MR. WHITLEY: But certain words will have to be introduced into this Amendment unless it is understood that the section is to be omitted when it is reached.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: We have no intention of depriving any authority of its property.
  MR. HELMEcongratulated the Government on having met the general feeling of the House by accepting the Amendment, which would enable no fewer than eighty-four of the smaller urban districts in Lancashire to continue to use the penny rate. Could the First Lord of the Treasury say how the non-county borough of Lancaster, which was included in the constituency he had the honour of representing, would be placed in the future? Hitherto the Corporation had had the power under the Technical Instruction Act to constitute a Technical Education Committee and that Committee received from the county a certain portion of the money voted out of the whisky moneys of the county. The Corporation had the right to appoint its-own Committee and manage the science, art, and other teaching, and objected to be deprived of that privilege. He took it

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  that that power would lapse entirely, unless the Government made some provision, having now accepted this arrangement to empower the Corporation to constitute a local Committee under the Act so that they might have the legal power of handling and controlling the proceeds of the penny rate which they were at the present time authorised to levy. Was the Government prepared to introduce a new clause to give local authorities the necessary powers under the new Act enabling them to administer concurrently with the County Council the money raised by them, or were the County Council to have the entire nomination of the local Committees?
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COMMITTEE OF COUNCIL ON EDUCATION (Sir JOHN GORST,): We shall be able to deal with that under Clause 12. That is the point at which we can most conveniently discuss the necessary Amendment.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid the concessions being made from day to day made it difficult to understand the Bill. Of course, on the Report stage there would be more time for consideration. He did not want to rub into the Government the question of the "one authority," which had gone by the board. Indeed, it had been from the first a mere pretext. He did not know how many new educational authorities were now going to be introduced, but he had been waiting for the intervention in the debate of the hon. Member for Camberwell, who had no doubt in his waistcoat pocket the exact number of the new authorities that would be introduced. There were practical difficulties in the way of making this scheme, apparently so simple, a success in the, small county boroughs and the small Urban districts. But by this Clause not a single voice was given them in the appointment of the Committee to control the schools. They were not made the educational authority. He was very glad indeed for any small concession from the Government which would enable some money to be spent on secondary education, but what effect would this Amendment have in practice? The small non-county boroughs and the small urban districts might be prepared
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  to support secondary education, but the County Council might wish to draw out of the obligation to assist them unless the Treasury gave an equivalent grant. In fact, by the Clause as it stood, the Government was pursuing a policy of robbing the non-county boroughs and the urban districts in order to pay the County Councils. He thought they were entitled to ask the First Lord of the Treasury two questions. First, whether, if those small non-county boroughs and urban districts which already made a contribution of 1d. for secondary education, were to be compelled to do something else for secondary education apart from the whisky money; and second, whether, if aerate was levied on these non-county boroughs and small urban districts they would have any authority over the schools in their area, or was the control to be vested completely in the County Councils?
  MR. CHANNINGsaid that the questions asked by the hon. Gentleman were extremely important. He thought they ought to have some intelligible explanation of the legal position of the non-county boroughs and the urban districts; and whether they would be able to co-relate one with another in the exercise of their powers. Some of them might be willing to rate themselves for secondary education, but they might find themselves in a muddle with an administrative county.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid that those questions raised by the hon. Member were not really relevant to the question before the Committee.
  MR. CHANNINGasked why then his hon. friend was allowed to discuss them.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid that if the urban councils wished to establish a secondary. school, and the County Councils wished to do so also, it would almost inevitably be in the same town. Would it not be a simpler plan for the County Council to go to the urban district council and ask them if they proposed to establish a secondary school in such and such a town?
  THE CHAIRMANsaid that that again was not a question relevant to the Amendment.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that they could not deal with all the varying circumstances which might arise in any particular locality. All that was wanted-was perfect freedom; and therefore he thought that they should leave the Clause to stand as it was.
  Question put, and negatived.
  MR. HANNINGsaid the Amendment standing in his name raised a very important point; and he was very glad that it was in order. The point of his Amendment would be obvious to all who had considered the results of the Cockerton judgment, and also the form and scope of the Technical Instruction Act. Under these, the School Boards had no power of rating for "other than elementary" education. He wished, on the principle asserted by the First Lord of the Treasury the previous night, to give greater elasticity and power to the. local education authorities to carry out secondary education in their own way. It seemed to him, after the modifications made in the Bill, that the machinery of the single authority working in a single large area with absolute powers on single and uniform lines, had disappeared from the Bill altogether. They had converted the Bill into an experimental Bill. One of the wisest speeches made in recent years on the education question had been delivered by the right hon. Member for Dartford at last year's meeting of the Technical Associations, when he declared that he could not be a party to the destruction of any form of educational machinery which had done, and was capable of doing, useful work; that it was essential to educational progress that all such instruments should be preserved; and when he added, with the strongest emphasis, that it would be impossible to destroy School Boards, and that any Government who attempted to do so would probably fare very badly at the hands of the electors. He was perfectly well aware that the right hon. Member for Dartford would not be legitimately bound by what he then
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  said to all that his Amendment contemplated, because this Amendment contemplated an extension of secondary education under School Boards beyond the powers they now possessed, but the hon. Member's views were entirely, in essence, in agreement with the Amendment which he now moved. Some of the great School Boards, especially in the North of England, had shown a desire to follow the splendid example given by the Scottish School Boards in carrying out their educational policy in that country. He thought that if this element of elasticity was introduced into the Bill, and if the School Boards were retained at all, they would be able to carry on education, other than elementary, in a manner which would remove many existing disadvantages from the Cockerton judgment, and would expand higher education on bold and practical lines as in Scotland.
  Amendment proposed—In page 2, line 3, after the word 'Act' insert the words 'and also any School Board.'"—(Mr. Channing.)
  Question proposed—"That those words be there inserted."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the hon. Gentleman could hardly expect the Government to accept the Amendment. Whatever might be thought of the ad hoc authority, the powers which had been given to the County Councils should not now be taken from them.
  Question put and negatived.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid he desired to move the Amendment standing in the name of his hon. friend the Member for the Swansea District. He wished to ask what was the meaning of the word "concurrently" as applied to the action of a County Council on the one hand and a small municipal borough on the other.
  Amendment proposed — In page 2; line 3, to leave out the words 'concurrently with the County Council.'"—(Mr. Samuel Evans.)
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that the word "concurrently" was used in the ordinary way. The County Council

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  would have certain powers over the urban districts which would remain unaffected by the Amendment which had been accepted. He imagined the way the Bill would be worked would be by an agreement between the County Council and the municipalities of the smaller boroughs as to how their common resources could be best expended.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESsaid he did not think the right hon. Gentleman had quite answered the question, of his lion, friend. The right hon. Gentleman said that the word "concurrently" was used in the ordinary way; but they wanted something more than an ordinary conversational meaning when they were discussing such an important subject. The Bill now provided that the council of any non-county borough or urban district should have power concurrently with the County Council to spend such sums and so forth. The word "concurrently" meant that unless an agreement were arrived at between the County Council and the non-county borough or urban district the Clause would be entirely inoperative. The right hon. Gentleman said that an agreement should be arrived at between the County Councils and the urban districts.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I said that that was the way it would work. Surely the hon. Gentleman knows the meaning of "concurrently"?
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESsaid he was obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for praising his knowledge of the English language. He maintained that if the word were to be read in ordinary parlance, the Clause would be absolutely in-operative, unless an agreement were arrived at. The vagueness of the drafting was another illustration of the manner in which Government Bills had been drafted. Apart from that, he supported the Amendment because he wanted to enable a progressive non-county borough in a county with a retrogressive County Council to give to the children of the ratepayers education other than elementary. If the Amendment were accepted, it would also enable certain non-county boroughs and
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  certain urban districts to get rid of the effect of the Cockerton judgment. He would give the Committee an instance of what might occur. The borough of Neath was in his constituency. It was a non-county borough, and had a School Board and a school under the Welsh Intermediate Act. If the words were retained, the School Board would not be able to carry on the education, other than elementary, it was now carrying on, which was absolutely essential in the public interest, because he was persuaded that that borough would not adopt Part III. of the Act. Therefore, partly on the ground of the vagueness of the drafting, and also, because if the words were retained the beneficial effect of the Clause would be limited, he would support the Amendment.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid that the Clause provided that the county authority and the borough authority should have concurrent powers; but it did not say that they were to exercise them. Surely that was common and intelligible language. It occurred every day under the existing Acts. One authority would say to the other, "We are prepared to spend so much if you will spend so much." Then an agreement would be arrived at, and the special needs of the locality would be satisfied.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSsaid he did not think that the words were perfectly plain. Supposing an Urban District Council, which had exercised its power of levying a rate for secondary education, felt aggrieved at the action of the county authority in dealing out the grant for secondary education; that the school which was built for that purpose was too small for the necessities of the neighbourhood; and that the Urban District Council desired to levy a Id. rate for the purpose of building a new school. In such circumstances, could the Urban District Council proceed to levy the rate, and spend the money in its own area, without the consent or approval of the County Council?
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENsaid he approached the question from a somewhat different point of view. Unless

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  words with a clearer meaning were used, rival schools might be set up in a district, one by the borough authorities and the other by the county authorities. He, therefore, proposed to leave out the word "concurrently," and to put in "in conjunction with." That would make the object of the Government perfectly plain. One of the meanings of "concurrently" in law was "covering the same ground," and if the clause stood as it was, there would be great danger of friction, and a greater chaos of authority than ever. He hoped the Government would accept the Amendment, and agree to substitute the words he proposed.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he quite agreed that the clause as it stood would end in a conflict of authorities. As far as he knew, there was only one case in which the word "concurrently" was used in law, and that was in the case of concurrent jurisdiction. That meant that a suitor could go to one of two courts which had concurrent jurisdiction. Was that the case in the Bill? The principle of one authority went as far as secondary education was concerned. If a Town Council decided to run schools, would they have to consult the county authority, or would the county authority have any sort of control or jurisdiction over them? In the case of Stockton the Town Council had a school, and they spent concurrently; but the school was under the management of the Town Council. The Council spent most of the money out of its own rates and certain grants, and made a grant in aid of the school. If that was what the right hon. Gentleman meant, it was a new departure, and a very dangerous one, and the whole clause should be recast. They had been told a great deal about co-ordination and organisation of secondary education, and this was the result—that two rival institutions were appointed to compete with each other on totally different lines. It was reducing the Bill to an absolute absurdity. Was it not possible to do something in order to insure that these two bodies should run together?
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid this system had existed for twelve years under the Technical Instruction Act, and yet neither County Councils nor non-county boroughs had acted with such extreme folly has
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  had been indicated. He did not think there was any such danger as the hon. Gentleman suggested. He had known several cases whore Town Councils and School Boards followed each other, and they had not overlapped. He had never known a case of conflict.
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid the case of Stockton, which had been referred to, was a case in point where conflicts had existed for the past twelve years between the County Council of Durham and the Borough of Stockton, which had the management of the schools.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid that Stockton was the very case which had recently been quoted as being one where the Borough Council and the County Council did work in harmony.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid this difficulty did not arise in consequence of the Amendment adopted a short time previously, because it would clearly have arisen with regard to the class of boroughs which were in the clause as it was originally drafted. All that the adoption of the Amendment by the Government had done was to smooth away the difficulty, if it existed. He was aware that it was easy to cite cases of difficulties which existed, but he believed there was, generally speaking, a good deal more common sense in human nature than hon. Members were willing to admit existed. He agreed with the hon. Member for Rugby that in these cases the wiser course was to leave the authorities to agree between themselves. He quite admitted that these difficulties might arise, but he denied that they would develop to any large extent. He hoped, at the same time, that some other word would be substituted for "concurrently." It was not a good word, and it would not express the idea the Government desired to express, nor the idea the County Councils desired to express when they asked the Government to adopt this Amendment.
  MR. LAMBERTasked which would be the; paramount authority. Supposing a non-county borough wished to set up a school, would it have to consult the County Council?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No.
  MR. LAMBERTasked what, then, was the use of "concurrently?" Anybody would suppose, from the general acceptation of the meaning of the word "concurrently" at the present time, that in such a case they would have to consult the County Council, who had concurrently to pay for it. That was another thing which might add to conflict of authority. The object of this Bill was to prevent that overlapping of which everybody had heard so much, but, so far as he could see, the overlapping system was going to prevail still.
  MR. BARTLEYsaid they were all pretty well agreed as to what it was they wanted, but as the clause stood now, the word "concurrently" would suggest to many that the County Councils might come down and prevent the non-county boroughs spending any money at all.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid the interjection of the right hon. Gentleman, which showed that these non-county boroughs had the power to act without the County Council, rendered it necessary that this word should be left out. He had in his mind several small urban districts which had erected technical schools and carried them on under their own administration. Those bodies were acting concurrently with the County Councils, but it was quite open to another non-county borough to found a technical school and levy a rate and carry on the school. But if the words of the Bill were passed, such Borough Councils would have to work concurrently with the County Councils. Why should they not work independently, as was the case with county boroughs? Why were these words kept in the Bill? They might lead to difficulties in connection with the County Councils which would not occur if full independence were given in doing this beneficent work for the children of these localities. He believed the interests of education would be best served by the concession which had been made being extended, so as to give these bodies, as far as possible, complete independence.
  MR. HANDLESthought it desirable to provide for a case in which it was proposed to erect in a certain town a college to supply not only that but also the adjacent towns. The County Council would provide that central college, but the municipal authorities would also contribute, and, concurrently with the County Council, maintain the college. In such a case, the influence of the County Council, acting concurrently with the municipal and urban authorities, was of considerable value. In that respect the clause succeeded in defining what was really wanted, and he could not see that there was any difficulty.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTunderstood that what the right hon. Gentleman really meant was that the county boroughs might do this work either alone or in conjunction with the County Council. If that was the intention, why not say so? The clause as it stood certainly gave the idea that neither could do it without the other. If some such words as "either alone or in conjunction with the County Council" were inserted, they would express the view put forward by the right hon. Gentleman, and also leave the two authorities free to agree, or to act by themselves.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the point under discussion was purely a matter of drafting. He did not believe the word "concurrently" could produce the effects suggested. As he interpreted it, the word "concurrently," when applied to the powers exercised by two authorities, meant that both exercised them, but each independently of the other; they ran side by side, but independently. He did not believe that any lawyer or court would have the slightest difficulty in interpreting the word in that way. He had listened to the various suggestions which had been made, but was not satisfied with any of them. He would engage, however, to bring up on Report words to make the meaning perfectly clear. Probably they would have to come at the beginning of the sentence—such as, "In addition to the powers possessed by the Council of any non-county borough," etc.; but he would consider the matter.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEthought that if a Borough Council started a continuation school, a school for training teachers, or a higher grade school, under the clause as it stood at present, the Treasury would be bound to give the grant to the County Council, because the Borough Council (if the borough was under 10,000 population) would not be the education authority. In that case, would the right hon. Gentleman accept an Amendment by which it would be made clear that whatever money was earned should go to the Council which earned it by starting the school and spending money upon it?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It is quite clear that the grant must go to the people who own the school.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Not under the clause as it stands.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That is the policy. I do not think the difficulty: would arise, but I will consider the point.
  MR. BRYCEthought it was perfectly clear that as the Councils of these non-county boroughs and urban districts would not be the authorities for secondary education, and were only given power to aid by giving money, any schools they might build would belong, not to them, hut to the local education authority. If it was desired that they should have power to manage their own schools and to receive and apply the grant, a further Amendment would have to be introduced, either here or in Clause 15.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the policy of the Government was quite clear, if the local authority built a school out of their rates, that school was their school; they had the responsibility of managing it, and they ought to take the grants connected with it. He doubted whether the interpretation of the Bill which had been put forward was the correct one, but he would have the matter looked into, and if it was it should be put right.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that, although there was no such word as "concurrently" in the Technical Instruction
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  Acts, the arrangements under those statutes had worked well, and therefore the word was not needed in the present case. Moreover, the word was very dangerous from the lawyers' point of view. If a Borough Council levied a rate without having come to a legal or binding arrangement with the County Council, they might be met with the objection that they could not collect the rate because there was no "concurrent" arrangement. Or when, after the money had been raised and expended, the accounts were submitted to the Local Government Board auditor, the objection might be raised that there was no concurrent action with the County Council such as the clause provided for. He doubted whether the right hon. Gentleman's legal advisers would admit that the phrase meant concurrent jurisdiction; they would be more likely to interpret it as meaning combined action between the two authorities. If the two authorities were to work together, one must be supreme; and he suggested that the case would be best met by the insertion of the words, "with the approval of the County Council."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that was not the policy. As the Committee was interested in the question, he would read the following clause which had been handed to him—
  "Every occupier of land shall have the right of taking and giving ground concurrently with any other person who may be entitled to give and take ground upon the same land."
  As those words appeared in one of the masterpieces of the right hon. Member for West Monmouthshire, it was evident that the Government were not now using the word "concurrently" in any strained or phenomenal sense.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWENasked whether the Board of Education would have power, in the event of either the County Council or the Borough Council setting up an unnecessary school, to stop the grant.
  MR. HELMEasked whether the First Lord would consider, when he brought up, on Report stage, the amended drafting of Clause 3, how he could define the

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  powers for the large urban districts where a technical education was now being provided, but in which, under the Bill, those powers could no longer be exercised, so that they could continue to appoint their. Committee and manage their technical and secondary work.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURwas understood to say he would take care that they had the powers.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  MR. LAMBERTsaid that if the Bill was carried in its present form, the rate in non-county boroughs would be limited to 1d. The county boroughs could spend what they liked, and the County Councils could spend up to 2d. in the £ therefore, he thought it would be unwise to limit the Councils of a non-county borough to Id. in the £. Many of the non-county boroughs had done extremely good work, and for his own part he was very unwilling that they should be crippled in their expenditure for supplying secondary education. It was quite impossible to have all sorts of local authorities spending different amounts of money and raising different amounts by the rates. They could not aid secondary education and establish secondary schools without money, and in some of these non-county boroughs Id. in the £ would bring in a very small Bum indeed. He had been reading Mr. Sadler's Report upon secondary education, and he stated that this country was thirty years behind Germany in secondary education. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would accept this Amendment, because it would introduce uniformity into the Bill and give to the local authorities some power and responsibility, and enable them to carry out the important work of secondary education.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 2, line 5, from the word 'elementary,' to leave out to the end of the clause."—(Mr. Lambert.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'provided that the' stand part of the Clause."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid the desire of the Government was to preserve for these Councils the power which they already possessed. The hon. Gentleman wished to greatly extend those powers far in excess of those now possessed by the counties. They would be liable now to a 1d. more rating than the other portions of the county in which they were situated. They could put upon themselves a 1d. rate, and the County Council could put on another 2d. Therefore, under those circumstances, he did not think it would be desirable to accept this Amendment.
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid that in the non-county borough of Darlington, owing to certain bequests, that town had established a very large technical college. There was close by a very large agricultural and mining district, and the County Council had given grants of many thousands to that college, every part of which was now in full working order. An effort was now being made to increase the building. They had always rated themselves to the extent of 1d. in the £ to carry on that college, and he believed that the money could be found to add another large wing to that institution, but unless the town was prepared to undertake the maintenance of that college, in all probability the additional wing would not be erected. He thought this was a case where an increased grant should be allowed.
  MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEpointed out that the case alluded to by the hon. Member was provided for in Clause 13, which laid down that—
  "(a) The County Council may, if they think tit, charge any expenses incurred by them under this Act with respect to education, other than elementary, on any parish or parishes which, in the opinion of the Council, are served by the school or college in connection with which the expenses have been incurred."
  He agreed with the First Lord of the Treasury that it would be most unsatisfactory to the county authorities if, after having agreed to a rate of 2d. in the £, an unlimited rating power should be given to the small areas in the county.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid the non-county boroughs had shown a great desire to raise money for secondary education, and the reason the County Councils were

  449
  limited to a 2d. rate was because they had not rated themselves up to that amount. The non-county boroughs had been the most progressive of all the boroughs in regard to secondary education, and many of them had been rated for years past to the full extent of 1d. rate. A petition had been presented from one of the urban districts in Lancashire, which had a population of 16,000, a rateable value of £71,000, and a revenue of £25,000. Under the Technical Instruction Act this district erected a technical school at a cost of £3,000, and for several years they had applied to the purposes of technical instruction the full amount of the rate. They had 280 students, and this district urged that they should not have the right of controlling these schools taken away from them. If the non-county boroughs had been spending 1d. in the £ in the past, why should they now be deprived of the right to spend more if they wished to do it? They were asking that they should be given a free hand just like the county boroughs, for they could make out a much better case for a free hand than the county boroughs. In many of those small boroughs there was as keen a desire for secondary education as in the county boroughs. Some of these boroughs were interested in promoting particular manufactures, and Leek, in Staffordshire, was better provided in the matter of secondary education than some of the great county boroughs.
  MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid that up to the present he had voted in favour of every Amendment to give a larger amount of money for secondary education, but he could not support this Amendment. It had been pointed out again and again in the discussion upon the previous Amendment that the smaller authority would be constantly coming in conflict with the Council, and that they would be erecting duplicate schools side by side, and running in antagonism one against the other. Now they had an Amendment which proposed to place an unlimited amount of money at the disposal of these bodies in order that they might enter into these conflicts, and spend the money without any restrictions whatsoever. He did not love this clause at all. It might be a
  450
  concession to sentiment, but he urged the Committee to do nothing which would strengthen the position, as educational authorities, of these very small areas. It must be remembered that by the Amendment which the First Lord of the Treasury accepted in the early part of this Clause, the operation of the Clause was not limited to non-county boroughs with a population of 10,000 or to urban districts with more than 20,000 inhabitants, but every urban district now enjoying this right would continue to enjoy it. He believed that this would be a source of continual conflict and discontent if equal powers were given to these small areas and the County Councils. He hoped that when the Amendment, which they were told would be forthcoming on the Report stage, was brought up, there would be something in it to provide that the small area would not be able to do this without the consent of the administrative County Council. It had been laid down in the previous Clause that the education authority should cause some inquiry to be made as to the existing provision and needs of secondary education, but if a number of schools were to be withdrawn from its purview, it would be impossible for the County Council to discharge that survey and declare what further provision was necessary. Consequently, there would be great educational gaps in county areas owing to the smaller areas having withdrawn a number of schools. He hoped that their powers would not be extended by the granting to them of unlimited power of taxation.
  SIR JESSE LEESEstated that the educational record of Accrington under the Technical Instruction Acts was as good as that of any other place which could be named. That town has a population of 45,000, and a rateable value of £170,108. Prior to 1892 the Corporation carried on under the Technical Instruction Acts, science, art and technological classes within the borough. They took the earliest possible advantage of the Technical Instruction Act of 1889, and under their powers as "local authority" the classes previously carried on by the Co-operative Society and the Mechanics Institute were amalgamated. In 1893

  451
  it was found that these classes had grown so largely, and that they were so numerously attended, that it was necessary to build a large technical school. That was done at a cost of £13,000. Since 1895 the Corporation, under the Technical Instruction Acts, had levied the full 1d. rate, and had used that in conjunction with the whisky money to meet the costs of the technical school and the classes carried on there. The results had been very pleasing to him. In 1892, when the Corporation first took control as the local education authority, there were only 513 students, and the grants of the Science and Art Department amounted to £276. In 1900 there were 1,275 students, and the grants amounted to £788. In addition to the science, art, and technological work just referred to, the Corporation, in 1895, established a day science school for boys and girls. This school began with 73 pupils, and now it had 174. The grants, earned in 1896 were £423, and in 1900 they were £878, and £150 would probably be added for 1901. There was no School Board in the borough, nor indeed in the Division of the county which he represented. If the day science school had not been established, the borough would have been entirely without secondary education. There was no School Board to travel outside the legal limits of the Elementary Education Acts. In 1897, in order to improve the training of pupil teachers of elementary day schools in the borough, the Corporation established pupil teachers' classes in the technical school. They had succeeded so well that there were now 142 pupil teachers, some of whom came from Haslingden, which was outside of his Parliamentary Division, and the others came from all the townships in the Division. They had done a good deal in Accrington with their hands somewhat tied. He asked the House not to clip their wings now. They were not afraid of being rated. They were glad to have the power of rating, because they were quite satisfied that the more money they got the better would be the results attained.
  MR. MIDDLEMOREsaid this was not so much an educational as a rating question. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the
  452
  Sleaford Division and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Thanet Division had argued that the population would be driven off the land if they were over-educated. His belief was that it would be all the other way; it was the lack of education that drove people off the land. He knew Worcestershire tolerably well, and thence a large number of young people in the small towns and villages rushed off to Birmingham in order to get the educational advantages of that city, which they could not possibly get in Worcestershire itself.
  MR. EMMOTTsaid he was sorry to differ from some of his hon. friends in regard to the Amendment now before the Committee. He believed they were in many respects behind other countries in the matter of secondary education, but they would not cure their defects by giving over to little places unlimited power of rating for secondary education. If they gave unlimited power of rating, there was the greatest possible danger of serious overlapping. Some small places would prefer to run their own schools, and that would interfere with the larger and wider scheme which a wise County Council would make. Therefore, if the Amendment went to a division, he would vote against it.
  SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid that his desire was to extend the work which was at present being done in connection with technical education. There was great danger of the undue multiplication of small schools if they adopted the Amendment. They might have small schools for preliminary education, but when they got beyond the elements it was desirable to have larger schools efficiently equipped, and with an adequate staff of teachers, if they were to have that competition which was the soul of education among the students. There had been great complaint in Ireland of the multiplication of small schools, and he sincerely hoped that they would not, in their ardour and enthusiasm, make a similar mistake in this country.
  LORD EDMUND FITZMAURICEsaid this Amendment would remove any limitation of rating, and as many hon.

  453
  Members on this side of the House had already recorded their protest in regard to the proposed limitation, they would only be acting consistently if, on this occasion, they recorded a similar protest. He quite recognised that there might be some hon. Members who desired some limitation of rating, although they might think that the total excision now proposed was going too far. The hon. Member for South Islington had on the Notice Paper an Amendment to raise the rate from 1d. to 2d., and he would support that; but he would support the present Amendment, which was to strike out the limit altogether. He would do that on the ground that they ought to trust the local authorities. His hon. friend behind him was rather alarmed at the multiplication of schools, but he could only say that in most boroughs and urban districts there was always room, if he might use the phrase, for a third, rate secondary school. It would be difficult for these schools to receive adequate assistance from the 1d. rate, even with the aid of the County Councils. The difference between a 1d. and 2d. rate might make the difference of paying to the staff sufficient or insufficient salaries.
  SIR JOSEPH PEASEsaid that the railway companies in certain towns were the principal contributors to the rates. Recently the railway companies with which he was best acquainted contributed largely to the technical school in Darlington. Why? Because their apprentices attended the school to the number of ninety or a hundred at a time. He was sure that it would not be prejudicial to elementary education if the local authorities were enabled, by-giving them discretion to levy a higher rate, to provide that class of secondary education suited to the particular industries of their districts.
  MR. BARTLEYsaid that the Amendment raised the very important question whether secondary schools should be maintained at the public cost or at the expense of those who needed them. He was very strongly opposed to the Amendment, because it was calculated to destroy the existing secondary schools, which
  454
  everybody recognised had done remarkably good work, and which were carried on as business speculations. Their staff and teaching apparatus were altogether unexceptionable, and it seemed to him a serious thing to run the risk of starving them out of existence. He objected altogether to the idea of throwing the enormous burden of secondary education upon the public purse.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid that the most contradictory arguments had been used on behalf of the Government. First they were told they ought to trust the local authorities, and then that the local authorities were incapable of conducting secondary education. Next, it was stated that the limitation on the rate was necessary in order not to alarm the ratepayers. But if the ratepayers objected, it was quite certain that the 1d. rate would not be exceeded; and if they desired to do something more for secondary education why should they be forbidden to do so? He could not understand the principle on which this clause was founded, and he should vote for the Amendment.
  MR. TREVELYANsaid that the hon. Member for North-West Ham had twitted those on that side of the House with being inconsistent, but that was because of the superior inconsistency on the part of the Government. It had been argued that the County Council should practically control the whole of education in their area, but that was not the policy of this clause. He thought that the local authority ought to have as much money as it deemed necessary to carry out the duty imposed upon it by the Bill.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid that he had resisted all through the creation of these smaller local education authorities, as he thought it most unwise in the interests of education. But, the Government, in their wisdom, having decided to give those smaller areas educational autonomy, he thought that they should be allowed to spend what money they deemed necessary. The remedy against extravagance would be in the hands of the ratepayers. He was bound to point out that if these smaller areas

  455
  were autonomous, there was no alternative but to admit that the ratepayers themselves alone had the right to vote that rate, and to say what the rate should be.
  MR. BRYCEagreed with the hon. Member for North Camberwell that the consistency of the Bill had gone by the board. That being so, they were entitled to look at the matter in a simple and practical manner. There were two objections taken by the hon. Members for East Somerset and Oldham. One was that small communities would be unlikely to rate themselves at all if the power was unlimited. But why should hon. Members suppose that? The truth was that in these small areas the local authority was more under the close and vigilant eye of the ratepayers than was the County Council. Consequently, that objection was absolutely groundless. There was more weight in the objection that they ought to avoid any danger of setting up again a system of overlapping, and encouraging the multiplication of small schools. He would feel that to be a very forcible objection, if it were not for the fact that he understood the clause to mean that the County Councils, and not these Urban District and Borough Councils, were to be the authorities for secondary education. He understood the clause to mean that if the Urban District Councils and the Borough Councils rated themselves to set up schools, those schools would not be under their control, but under that of the educational authority for the district. If that were so, there would be no danger of undue multiplication or overlapping of schools. He hoped they would adhere to the broad principle of trusting the ratepayers. There was no reason why they should not be trusted to manage their own affairs.
  MR. J. W. WILSONsaid he was quite aware of the fact that in a case of this kind it did not look consistent with progressive education to advocate limiting the rate. He, however, opposed the Amendment because he felt that in urging a local community to adopt a new course in education, one of the strongest arguments that could be used would be that the rate would be 1d. or 2d. and no more. He therefore thought
  456
  that the Government were well advised in preserving the limit. It could be easily increased in future when secondary education had obtained a greater hold on the people. It was, in his opinion, in the interest of secondary education that there should be a limit.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid he regretted that he had to differ from the hon. Member who had just spoken. The hon. Member usually took a very liberal view on matters of education. In his opinion, to impose a limit of this kind would be a very great mistake. There were many small boroughs containing a number of enterprising men in favour of education who were influential enough to lead the borough in the direction in which they wished it to go. Why should a town of that kind, which desired to make more liberal provision for education, be prevented from doing so? If a town wanted to erect schools and pay for them in a reasonably short time instead of burdening the rates for thirty or forty years, why should not they have the right to levy a 2d. instead of a 1d. rate? In his opinion, the Government, having constituted these authorities, should give them freedom of action.
  SIR WILLIAM ANSONsaid he did not understand that the proposal of the Government was to constitute a great number of independent authorities for secondary education. The general scheme of the one authority might be very seriously undermined if an unlimited rating power was given to the various districts. The conclusions, he understood, that had been come to were that within the county there were to be a great many authorities for elementary education, but one authority for secondary education; and that these boroughs and urban districts which were to be authorities for elementary education were, so far as secondary education was concerned, to have the power of offering a stimulus to the action of the County Council by stating their readiness to rate themselves to the extent of 1d., if the County Council would come forward and impose a 2d. rate over the particular area, and so enable them to do what they desired to do. That seemed to him a reasonable course to pursue in this process

  457
  of constructing one authority for secondary aducation in every county. If, on the other hand, they gave an unlimited rating power, they would have very large schemes developed in one place, and very sparse educational efforts in others, and the general scheme which they hoped to see established in every county would be undermined and gradually disappear. For these reasons, although he was sorry to do anything which could be construed as damping the educational zeal of any locality, he felt bound to oppose the Amendment.
  SIR WALTKK FOSTERdesired to see these urban authorities much more independent than they were, and where there was enthusiasm for education to have power to give substance to their desire. He knew of a small urban centre which desired to have technical schools, but when it obtained them, 1d. rate would be of no use to maintain them adequately. So enthusiastic were some of these localities that the Urban District Councils were presented in some cases with plots of land on which to build schools. The difficulty was, when the schools were obtained, to maintain them out of the proceeds of a 1d. rate. He urged the Government to give these localities sufficient independence to rate themselves, and to trust the ratepayers to take care that their local representatives did not indulge in needless extravagance. The vigilance of the ratepayers in these small urban areas was a sure safeguard against anything like extravagance on the part of Urban District Councils.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONESsaid although there was a good deal of sense in the speech of the junior Member for Oxford University, he did not see that the observations of the hon. Member were quite relevant to the Amendment before the House, which was to leave out the whole of the proviso, the result of which would be to give to the Councils of the urban districts and non-county boroughs power to raise what rate they pleased. The difficulty was not the question whether unlimited power of rating should be given to these authorities: the difficulty was to ascertain how it would be used. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury had
  458
  stated that he would consider an Amendment of the first five lines of this Amendment, but until the Committee knew the final form that Amendment was going to take, it was impossible to have a reasonable discussion on the question whether or not the words of the proviso should remain. He would point out with regard to the drafting that the Courts of Law did not always take the same reasonable view that was taken by hon. Members, and therefore, when they desired to make a good Act of Parliament, the Committee should take care that the language should be framed in such a way as to leave no doubt as to its meaning.
  MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid it made all the difference whether 1d. or more should be granted to the non county boroughs, and if they were to be autonomous then there would be a multitude of secondary education authorities, and he should like to know where they were drifting. He hoped the interpretation of the clause given by the right hon. Member for South Aberdeen was correct, and that the non-county boroughs and the urban districts would not be able to move in the matter of secondary education without the direct sanction of the County Council, and without their co-operation and support.
  SIR EDWARD GREYsaid he should like to press the same point, as his vote on the matter depended entirely on what was the interpretation of "concurrent powers." If the non-county boroughs were to have the power to set up independent schemes, and to riddle the plan and policy of the County Council, he should certainly vote for limiting their power. If, however, it was a question of having a big general scheme for the county, he should like to see the limit of rate removed.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was surprised that there should be any misapprehension. There was no new question or modification of the Bill involved. His hon. friend asked where they were drifting, as if a change were being made in the relation that non-county boroughs bore to the county.

  459
  There had been a change in the number of these non-county boroughs, but no change in their relation to the county, which remained precisely as it always had been in the Bill from the beginning. The historical genesis of the clause was this: When they came to this problem they found that a large number of these boroughs had been entrusted by Parliament with secondary education powers; they were not full powers, it was true, but were restricted to those parts of secondary education commonly known as technical. When the Bill was introduced they thought, and they still thought, that those powers could not be withdrawn from boroughs with a population over 10,000, and from urban districts over 20,000. They had extended this to boroughs under 20,000. These secondary or technical education powers were now exercised independently of the county, and that would be the case in the future. They were making no change; that was the essence of the Bill, not to diminish powers already existing. But while, to the extent that he had described, these non-county boroughs were independent of the county authority, the county authority, nevertheless, remained the authority for secondary education throughout the county, because its powers of rating were universal over the whole area. While the boroughs, in the clause as it stood, had powers of rating up to 1d., the county had the power to rate these very boroughs if they pleased. Therefore, it was perfectly accurate to say that the secondary education authority in county areas was the County Council. They had been asked whether there would not be a conflict of jurisdiction. He was not afraid of that, partly on the ground of practice, and partly on the ground of theory. He was not afraid on the ground of practice, because this very system had been in existence for more than twelve years; and he believed that County Councils and Borough Councils were perfectly ready to work harmoniously and to co-operate, in spite of the semi-independence of the non-county boroughs, in order to promote technical education. Why it should be assumed that in regard to secondary education they would establish a wholly new and irrational policy, he was at a loss to understand.
  460
  Suppose a Borough Council was so ill-advised as to think it would serve the interests of its own neighbourhood by acting in direct conflict with the County Council; it was evident that that would be a suicidal policy. As he had explained, the boroughs were under the control of the County Council as far as the rate was concerned. The County Council could rate them against their will, so that there was every interest—financial, educational, and rating—for these bodies to work harmoniously together. As they had shown themselves in the past to be not wholly deficient in the elementary principles of common sense, so he was convinced they would be found acting with prudence and judgment in the future. But he admitted, with the hon. Baronet who had just spoken, that if they were to be given wholly unlimited powers of rating, while the rating powers of the supreme secondary education authority were limited to the 2d. in the Bill, the possibilities of conflict, though not, even under those circumstances, very great, would be materially increased. He, therefore, hoped the Committee would reject the Amendment.
  MR. BRYCEsaid that it might seem bold to differ from the right hon. Gentleman's construction of his own Bill, but he thought, comparing Sections 1 and 3, the Bill did not set up these local authorities as the authorities for secondary education. The First Lord had said it did; if that was so, the right hon. Gentleman had gone much further in the way of destroying the principle of the Bill than had been supposed.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It is, and always has been, in the Bill.
  MR. BRYCEsaid they had never read it in that sense. They had all understood from the beginning that in a county there was to be one authority for secondary education, and that one authority was to be the County Council. They welcomed that proposal. But the right hon. Gentleman, by the statement he had just made, although he endeavoured to avoid doing so in words, had practically admitted that all these

  461
  Urban District Councils and Borough Councils would be local authorities for secondary education. They must be so, because they were to have the power of receiving the grants and administering the schools. He had supposed, on the fact of the clause, that they were only to have a rating power, and that when they had raised their rate they were to hand it over to the local authority to be applied as the local authority thought fit or upon a comprehensive scheme. That was certainly the view of the hon. Member for Oxford University. But now they understood that, so far from that being the case, every one of these numerous bodies was to be able to manage its own school and apply its own rate, irrespective of the County Council.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid it had been implied that he had modified the Bill in such a way as to destroy the general principle which he laid down at the beginning. That was not so. He asked the Committee to mark these words from his speech when introducing the Bill—
  "There is an exception. We think it impossible to deprive boroughs with 10,000 population, or urban districts with over 20,000, of their existing jurisdiction over technical education; nor do we think that they can be subordinated to the County Council with regard to primary education. We, therefore, leave them as they are as regards the first, and make them autonomous as regards the second."
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid the passage quoted by the right hon. Gentleman referred only to municipal boroughs with a population of 10,000, and urban districts with 20,000, whereas the clause went farther, and dealt with every non-county borough and urban district, whatever the population.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That was not the point of the right hon. Gentleman.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid the Committee were still in difficulties with regard to the position of these boroughs. Were they to be the educational authorities or were they not? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Aberdeen said they were, and the First Lord said they were. But according to the Bill it was
  462
  clear they wore not. The Committee wanted to know the intention of the Government, and then they would have to sec that the words of the Bill carried out that intention. If the Councils of these smaller boroughs were to be the educational authorities they would have the appointment of the Committees, and the Committees would have the control of the schools. Was that intended, or was it the intention of the Government that the County Council should appoint the Committee as the authority for the whole county, which Committee, appointed without reference to the municipal borough, should control the schools in the borough itself? These small boroughs already had schools, and it was not proposed to interfere with the powers they possessed. But those powers were not merely powers of raising money, but of providing, administering, and managing the schools. Unquestionably, the Committee had a right to know whether it was the intention of the Government that those powers should still exist concurrently with the larger powers given under the Bill to the County Councils. If the smaller boroughs were merely given the right to levy a 1d. rate, and hand it over to the County Council to administer, they would do nothing at all. The Bill did not provide that the Councils of these smaller boroughs should be the education authorities, and the Government ought to take time to reconsider the drafting of this clause, as it obviously did not carry out their present intention.
  MR. BROADHURSTagreed to a large extent with the First Lord of the Treasury. The policy he had enunciated was that adopted in the Bill of 1896. It was then strongly urged that it would be unwise to uproot the system which had been implanted in many towns, and under which secondary and technical education was being successfully given. The County Council would, in some cases, be loss favourable to secondary education than some of the urban authorities in that particular county, and if it was left to the County Council the work now going on would come to an end. He was, therefore, inclined to permit the urban authorities to carry on the secondary and technical education in their respective towns. He had never supported the policy of one authority for secondary education. But where he

  463
  differed from the First Lord was in regard to the limitation of the rate. That was the primary point of the Amendment, and he hoped the Committee would not lose sight of it. He should support the Amendment in the hope that the limitation would be removed. There was no necessity to restrain the ratepayers from spending money on education: the difficulty was to induce them to spend sufficient. To say by law that they should spend so much, and no more, was unwise in the interests of education, and was somewhat wanting in respect to the ratepayers.
  SIR FREDERICK MAPPINsaid he should vote against the Amendment, because he believed the establishment of these technical schools in small areas would be a great mistake.
  SIR JOHN BRUNNERsaid it was obvious that the Leader of the House ought to reconsider the appeal that a connection should be made between the County Councils and the councils of these non-county boroughs and smaller municipal authorities. He appealed to him to preserve the status quo which now worked so pleasantly and efficiently. The County Councils were either empowered or bound, by the Technical Instruction Acts, to appoint managers to each of the technical schools in conjunction with the local authority. The whole of this was swept away by the repeal of the Technical Instruction Act. It had now been settled that these smaller authorities were to be independent, and he wanted to preserve the kindly and wholesome connection which existed between them and the County Councils. He wanted this connection established in the Bill itself.
  MR. HELMEsaid that by accepting this Amendment they would be facilitating some such arrangement as that which had been foreshadowed. In order to do this, if the power was given for each urban district to raise a rate sufficient to carry out the secondary, in addition to the technical education work which it had hitherto been doing, and which would not be destroyed, it was only necessary to add a very small amount of new work to make the
  464
  institution a complete educational one. He wished to know whether it would be possible, if this Amendment were carried, to so arrange that where a local authority had provided, out of its own funds, a school and a wide system of education, and where it was willing to rate itself to a sufficient extent, it could be relieved of the power possessed by the County Council to levy a rate in that particular district.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The hon. Member, upon his own showing, is discussing matters which are not now before the Committee.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid he wished to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if it was his view that under this clause a small urban area might, out of its own penny rate, set up a secondary school in defiance of the express wish of the County Council.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Certainly it could.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid in that case the smaller borough could have an Education Committee for that purpose.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the Committee seemed to be only just beginning to realise what had been done by accepting the Amendment of the hon. Member for East Somerset. They were now setting up a large number of new education authorities. It was perfectly clear now that these little Urban Councils could set up secondary schools under their own management and control, and there would be so many additional secondary authorities throughout the whole country. This would be the worst possible thing that could happen. They could not now organise secondary instruction within their own area, but in future they would be able to do so. The First Lord of the Treasury said this was intended, but his speech was absolutely confined to technical instruction, and he never hinted that these boroughs would have jurisdiction over secondary instruction. The whole scheme of the Bill was that these small boroughs should have jurisdiction over primary education, and not over secondary education, which power was to remain with the

  465
  County Councils. Now, the right hon. Gentleman had smashed up his own scheme, not merely by giving the power to areas of 20,000 inhabitants, but also to every little Urban and Town Council. The First Lord of the Treasury could not have thought out what the meaning of this change was, because it was perfectly clear that it was only intended that they should have the power of subsidizing—
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: That was never intended.
  MR. LLOYD GEORGEsaid this was contrary to the whole spirit of the Bill. If it was intended to give to these little Urban Councils the control of secondary as well as primary education, why was it stated in the first part of the Bill that the powers were confined to Part III of the Bill? Why should Part III have been mentioned at all? What would happen? This power would be used for the purpose of confining secondary education, and the sacrifices which had been made for it, to these small Councils. Upon the County Council a member might be in favour of a scheme extending throughout the whole county, but the farmers on the Council might say: "If you urban members want a school for your own children, you can rate yourselves;" and it would be

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

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  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Fison, Frederick William

  Bignold, Arthur

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Bigwood, James

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Bond, Edward

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Fletcher, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Forster, Henry William

  left to each of these little urban communities to set up their own school. Consequently, there would be no county rate, and the farmers would get the benefit of a school to which they had not contributed a penny. They knew the urban communities would never go without a school, and they would say: "We will give you something out of the whisky money towards it." The right hon. Gentleman had now smashed up his original scheme and rendered worthless the secondary part of the Bill.
  MR. BOUSFIELDsaid those who supported this Amendment would be setting up two independent authorities. Those hon. Members opposite who were supporting this proposal were placing themselves in an entirely inconsistent position. There was a certain amount of elasticity about the clause as it stood, for under it they would secure the predominance of the County Councils. He thought it was highly desirable to retain the predominance of the County Councils, and he should vote against the Amendment.
  (5.58.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 269; Noes, 166. (Division List No. 255.)

  Fos'er, Sir Michael(Loud, Univ.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S. W

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rutherford, John

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Gardner, Ernest

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Garfit, William

  Lowe, Francis William

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H(City of Lond.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn Col. Edw. J.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin&Nairn

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Seely, Maj J. E. B (Isle of Wight

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H.(Renfrew)

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Line

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  M'lver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Green, Walford D(Wedneshury

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Greene, Sir E W(B'ySEdmouds

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Spear, John Ward

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Maxwell, WJH(Dumfriesshire

  Stewart, SirMark J. M'Taggart

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Milner, Rt. Hn. SirFrederickG.

  Sturt, Hon. Homphry Napier

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G.(Mid'x

  Milvain, Thomas

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G(Oxf'd Univ.

  Hamilton, Marq of L'nd'nderry

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Morgan, David J(Walthamst'w

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Valentia, Viscount

  Heath, Arthur Howard(Hanlev

  Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. EH(Sheffield

  Heath, James (Staffords, N. W

  Mount, William Arthur

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Helder, Augustus

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham(Bute

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Henderson, Alexander

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.(Taunt'n

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E(Notts.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Whiteley, H.(Ashton und. Lyne

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlingt'n

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hoult, Joseph

  Penn, John

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Percy, Earl

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Hudson, Georgo Bickersteth

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Johnston, William (Belfast

  Purvis, Robert

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Randles, John S.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon C. B. Stuart-

  Kenyon, Hon Geo T.(Denbigh

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wylie, Alexander

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Ridley, Hon. M. W(Stalybridge

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Ridley, S. Forde(BethnalGreen

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Lawson, John Grant

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Younger, William

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Lee, Arthur H(Hants, Fareham

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Ropuer, Colonel Robert

  Sir William Walrond and

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Round, James

  Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Boland, John

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Brigg, John

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc. Stroud

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Ambrose, Robert

  Brunner, Sir James Tomlinson

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Asquith. Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Davies, M. Vaughan. (Cardigan

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Burt, Thomas

  Delany, William

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Caldwell, James

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Cameron, Robert

  Doogan, P. C.

  Black, Alexander William

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  468

  469

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Lundon, W.

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee

  Edwards, Frank

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Elibank, Master of

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Ellis, John Edward

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Runciman, Walter

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Mac Veagh, Jeremiah

  Russell, T. W.

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  M'Crae, George

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  M'Kean, John

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir Henry

  M'Killop, W (Sligo, North)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Spencer, RtHn. C. R(Northants

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Mooney, John J.

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Tennant, Harold John

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Murphy, John

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Harmsworth, R. Leiceter

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Thomas, JA((Glam'rgan, Gower

  Harwood, George

  Nussey, Thomas William

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Tomkinson, James

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipp'r'ry, Mid

  Toulmin, George

  Hayter, Rt. Hen. Sir Arthur D.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Tully, Jasper

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Wallace, Robert

  Holland, William Henry

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Walton, John Lawson(Leeds, S.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Dowd, John

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.)

  Wason, Eugene(Clackmannan

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Malley, William

  Weir, James Galloway

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Mara, James

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Jones, David Brynmor(Sw'nsea

  Partington, Oswald

  Whiteley, George(York, W. R.

  Jones, William(Carnarv'nshire

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Joyce, Michael

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham

  Wilson, Chas. Henry(Hull, W.

  Labonchere, Henry

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson, Fred W.(Norfolk, Mid

  Langley, Batty

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Rea, Russell

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Leamy, Edmund

  Reddy, M.

  Wood, James

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Leng, Sir John

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Levy, Maurice

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rickett, J. Compton

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Lloyd-George, David

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Mr. Lambert and Mr.

  Lough, Thomas

  Roberts, John H. (Deabighs.)

  Corrie Grant.

  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSsaid the Amendment he now moved would, if carried, provide that none of those small areas, the non-county boroughs and urban districts, would be allowed to levy a rate for secondary education without an equivalent rate being levied in the county in which they were situated. He had no objection whatsoever to granting full rating power to every local authority, but he thought it was of importance, when they were dealing with the setting up of a new system of secondary education, county by county, that they should take care nothing was done which would prejudice the general interest of the whole county in the scheme which was established. It seemed to him that, if this Amendment were carried, and if the rating powers of the various small urban districts were conditioned by the
  470
  rate actually levied by the county authority, it would mean that there would be greater general interest in secondary education throughout the county. What they wanted was to stimulate secondary education throughout country districts. It was important that they should provide some kind of challenge by which those who were interested in secondary education should induce it to flow into the rural parts of the country. He was not speaking in this respect in regard to Wales alone. It would be, in his judgment, a national misfortune if technical instruction, which was of paramount importance at the present day, was not extended to every part of the country; but unless they had this power of levying a rate, practically the whole work of technical education would be left to the towns, and no technical

  471
  schools would be provided in the rural districts. He hoped that this Amendment would meet with the sympathetic consideration of the Committee.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 2, to leave out line 8, and to insert the words 'is levied, by the Council of the county in which the said Council of a non-county borough or urban district is situated.'"—(Mr. Herbert Roberts.)
  Question proposed, "That the words in line 8 stand part of the clause."
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that, as he understood it, the effect of the Amendment would be to limit the power of rating of the urban authorities by the amount levied by the county for the rural districts, although they had been told over and over again that the smaller urban areas were more enterprising educationally than the rural districts. Under these circumstances, the Amendment could not possibly be accepted by the Government, having in view the duties of the urban authorities, not only in regard to primary, but to secondary education.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he supported this Amendment as absolutely necessary, because otherwise the farmers in the rural districts would leave the whole of the rating on the urban districts. As the clause stood at present, the County Council might rate itself for a secondary school, and then spend the whisky money on purely agricultural matters, unless there was some provision to protect the urban districts.
  MR. JOSEPH A. PEASEsaid that he was sorry to say he could not agree with the hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs. The urban members of the County Council could look very well after their own interests; and he thought the whisky money would be pretty equally divided over both the urban and the rural districts of the county. He did not think the Amendment would carry out the best interests of the education, of the country, or that it would work well.
  Amendment negatived.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLIT, in explaining the object of the Amendment he rose to move, said that the limitation of the rate to Id. would, he believed, be a
  472
  mistake. The danger was not of the smaller boroughs levying too high a rate, but of not levying a sufficient rate. It was a valuable provision in the Bill that non-county borough and urban districts might, concurrently with, but, as he assumed, separately and independently of, the County Council, levy and spend a rate for the purposes of education, for by this means they could make such education particularly adapted to the special needs of their localities, in pursuance of the real principles of local government. That would introduce an element of variety and elasticity in our educational fabric. Take the case of a non-county borough, such as Ripon, which had a population of only 8,500. Ripon was an agricultural centre, and, although the County Council of the manufacturing West Riding had done its work extremely well, but with some friction with the non-county boroughs, he could quite understand that the Ripon Council would be better able to understand what was best for that particular agricultural district. There was no distinction between a non-county borough and a larger community, excepting the restriction of raising money, based on a population line, which was arbitrary and often nonsensical. A non-county borough was limited by the Bill to a penny rate for its own purposes. He suggested that there should be a two-penny rate. But the most valuable portion of his Amendment was that which gave elasticity by providing that, if the Local Government Board were satisfied that the financial proposal was a good one, they might sanction such a rate as in the circumstances might be required. If the educational work was good, if the means were adequate, and if there was the will on the part of the community to do their own educational work, they ought to encourage, rather than discourage, such an attempt; and his Amendment would not only enable this to be done, but would, as ought to be the case, largely assimilate the case of the non-county boroughs as to fixing a higher rate to that of the county boroughs—a proposal which he had suggested, and which had been carried out, on the motion of the hon. Member for Sheffield in removing the limitation on the county boroughs.

  473
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 2, line 8, to leave out the words Id. in the £,' and insert the words '2d. in the £, or such higher rate as the council of such non-county borough or urban district, with the consent of the Local Government Board, may fix.'"—(Sir Albert Rollit.)
  Question proposed. "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONsupported the Amendment. He said the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord had pointed out that many of these schools had to meet a charge out of their rates for education, owing to the judgment given in the Cockerton case, which they would otherwise not have to provide for. He thought that in the majority of cases 1d. rate might be sufficient; but, as they had established the principle of relaxing the limit to a certain extent with the consent of the Local Government Board, that principle might also be applied to urban districts and non-county boroughs for the purpose of secondary education. There were many cases in which such a thing might be justified.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he appreciated the argument of the hon. Gentleman, but it would be a very serious blow to the principle they desired to see adopted in this Clause if this Amendment were accepted. They had steadily gone on the theory that the problem of secondary education could only be worked out in these county areas by the County Councils and, for this purpose, the subordinate municipal authorities, working together in harmony. He was convinced that, if the Clause was allowed to remain as it stood, there would be no difficulty in establishing that harmony. But if they increased the existing powers of these boroughs, and allowed them, quite irrespective of the views of the County Council, to go to the Local Government Board and make a demand for an increased power of rating and for power to deal with the whole problem of secondary education in their own area, there would be very great obstacles and difficulties thrown in the way of that harmonious working. He hoped the hon. Gentleman would not think it necessary to press the matter to a division.
  MR. GEORGE WHITEsaid he had a similar Amendment on the Paper. He felt that those non-county boroughs and urban districts had hitherto in many instances performed their educational work well, and it was extremely desirable they should maintain it. Many of them had efficient higher grade schools which could no longer exist, but on their foundations secondary schools should be established. Then, again, there were grammar schools in some of these non-county boroughs which in some cases were far from efficient either in their equipment or their curriculum. If they had an increased amount at their disposal they would be able to deal with those grammar schools and make them proper centres for secondary schools and for pupil teachers' training, in co-operation with the County Council. In addition, there was the necessity of forming centres for continuation schools. A 1d. rate was a very small amount, and there would be no compulsion to levy 2d. rate if it was not required. The right hon. Gentleman said that these non-county boroughs were subordinate authorities for the purposes of secondary education, but a little time ago they were told that they were absolutely independent. If that was so, there was great force in this Amendment.
  MR. SCHWANNsaid that small townships in Germany and Switzerland spent enormous sums of money in comparison with their rating power and the number of inhabitants.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! This is only a question between 1d. and 2d.
  MR. SCHWANNsaid there must be a beginning. A 1d. was a considerable rate in some districts. Towns like Geneva and Zurich were only lightly taxed in the beginning, but they had enormously increased. For his part, he should do all he could both on this Amendment and others to enlarge the area for spending a larger sum on education. There would soon be an adequate return for it. He thought that if the Committee saw the progress that was made in small townships abroad they would vote for a larger amount.
  MR. MIDDLEMORE, while in favour of the Amendment, suggested that the limit of 1d. should be retained, with the proviso that it might be extended with the consent of the Local Government Board. He thought the sum in the Clause was not adequate, seeing what had to be done in providing for evening schools, technical schools, teachers' schools, and the new schools.
  SIR ALBERT ROLLITaccepted the suggestion of his hon. friend.
  SIR WALTERFOSTERsaid he thought the suggestion just made would bring the relation of the rating of these small boroughs into harmony with the County Council and that it would be a concession in the direction of those who wanted to provide more money for secondary education. He thought it was agreed that 1d. rate was inadequate, and he did not think the harmony between the local authorities would be at all lessened if the power proposed were given and these bodies were enabled to obtain more money in conjunction with the County Council. It appeared to him that these bodies were to be not independent bodies but subsidiary to the Education Department. He noticed a marvellous tenderness as to the giving of power to local authorities to increase their rates and spend their own money. Why should they be interfered with? It was not money from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and why should they not trust the people to spend their own money for what they wanted— wants, indeed, which were the most urgent in the country?
  MR. WHITLEYsaid that the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Islington was the logical outcome of the Amendment accepted a short time previously. Only a short time before, they had had a discussion on the meaning of the word "concurrent," and the First Lord of the Treasury had told them that "concurrent" meant independence; that these small authorities would have independent power; that they could raise the rates and control their own schools, and that they would be entirely independent of the County Councils in the matter of secondary education.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I never said anything of the kind. What I said was that, if they spent their own money on their own schools, those schools should be under their own management. I did not say that they should be independent of the local authorities.
  MR. WHITLEYsaid the right hon. Gentleman had merely reiterated what he had pointed out to the Committee. If the Clause remained as it was, there could be 1d. rate in one district, while the representatives of that district could go to the County Council and impose 2d. on others. This was a curious reminiscence of the Home Rule Bill. Nobody at that time could understand the in and out arrangement of the Home Rule Bill, yet in this Bill there was an extension of that in and out arrangement. This was a matter which required the serious consideration of the Committee, and he hoped they would support the Amendment.
  SIR JOSEPH A. PEASEalso supported the Amendment, and gave instances where the Clause would work unequally unless the alteration proposed was made. He trusted the Committee would adopt the Amendment if the Government did not give way.
  MR. BOUSFIELDsaid it was important that they should preserve as far as possible the predominance of the County Council, but, on the other hand, there were occasions when elasticity was desirable. He believed they could preserve both considerations; they could preserve the predominance of the County Council and yet give more elasticity, which in his opinion could do nothing but good. He would suggest that the 1d. should be left where it was, and that the power to exceed the 1d. might be given, subject to the control of the County Council and the Local Government Board.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid the suggestion of the hon. Member made the case harder than ever. Suppose one of these boroughs asked for permission to levy a rate on its own ratepayers, the

  477
  County Council would immediately give its consent, because they would say "we will also levy a rate upon them." There was one broad principle upon which the Amendment might be supported, and that was that every community should be entitled to rate itself for education. That principle alone would make him support the Amendment. But there were certain practical difficulties which would arise. The upshot of what had been done would be that the municipal boroughs and urban districts would entirely free themselves from the control of the County Council. The County Council would undoubtedly have the right to levy a county rate, and to impose that rate on the ratepayers of these boroughs. But if that were attempted, they would have the church-rate fight over again, and the County Council would not dare to enforce the rate. It ought always to be borne in mind that they did not yet know how much secondary or higher education was going to cost. Higher education was to include branches of the work which had hitherto been included in the term elementary education. He therefore thought his hon. friend was on sound ground in advising the Government to adopt the
  position they took up with regard to the county boroughs. In view of the previous concession of the Government, he could not see how. with any show or argument, they could decline to grant a similar concession in this case. He was against the Amendment from one point of view, viz., that it would take away from the larger jurisdiction of the County Council the areas of these municipal boroughs, but on the ground that no limit at all should be placed on an expenditure which could not at present be properly gauged he should support the Amendment.
  MR. CHARLES ALLEN, as an urban councillor, protested against the idea that they should be obliged to go cap in hand to the County Council in this matter. He was against any limit being imposed. The District Councils were kept in very good order by the ratepayers, and there was little fear of the rate being too large. He should therefore vote in support of the Amendment.
  (7.6.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 250; Noes, 163. (Division List No. 256.)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Lucas, Reginald J.(Portsmouth

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Green, Walford D.(W'dnesbury

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Greene, SirEW(B'ryS. Edm'nds

  Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B.(Isleof Wight

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W

  Smith, A bel H. (Hertford, East)

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Smith, James Parker(Laparks.

  Hamilton, Marq. Of (L'nd'nderry

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Maxwell, W. J. H.(Dumfriessh.

  Spear, John Ward

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Helder, Augustus

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Henderson, Alexander

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants)

  Talbot, Rt Hn J. G. (Oxf'rd Univ

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Morgan, DavidJ.(Walthamstow

  Tomlinson, Wid. Edw. Murray

  Hoare, Sir Samuel

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptford

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Mount, William Arthur

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Hoult, Joseph

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Howard, John(Kent, Faversh'm

  Murray, Col. Wyndham(Bath)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton

  Howard. J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Whiteley, H(Asht'n-und-Lyne

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm

  Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Penn, John

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Percy, Earl

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wilson, A. Stanley(Yorks, E. R.

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Keswick, William

  Purvis, Robert

  Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh. N.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Pym, C. Guy

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Randles, John S.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Lawson, John Grant

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wylie, Alexander

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Leigh-Bonnett, Henry Currie

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Younger, William

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Long, Col. Charles W.(Evesham

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Long. Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Lowe, Francis William

  Round, James

  Sir William Walrond and

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Rutherford, John

  Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William(Cork, N. E)

  Burt, Thomas

  Ellis, John Edward

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Emmott, Alfred

  Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud

  Caldwell, James

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Ambrose, Robert

  Cameron, Robert

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Asquith, Rt. Hn. Herbert Henry

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Cawley, Frederick

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Gladstone, Rt Hn. Herbert John

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Black, Alexander William

  Cremer, William Randal

  Grant, Corrie

  Boland, John

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Delany, William

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Brigg, John

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Burke, E, Haviland-

  Edwards, Frank

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  480

  481

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Murphy, John

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Holland, William Henry

  Norman, Henry

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Spencer, RtHn C. R. (Northants

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Sullivan, Donal

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipp'r'ry Mid.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Thomas, Abel(Carmarthen, E.)

  Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Jones, William (Carn'rvonshire

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Thomas, J. A.(Gl'm'rg'n, Gower

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Kelly, James (R'scomm'n, N.

  Tomkinson, James

  Kitson, Sir James

  O'Malley, William

  Toulmin, George

  Lambert, George

  O'Mara, James

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Langley, Batty

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Tully, Jasper

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Partington, Oswald

  Wallace, Robert

  Leamy, Edmund

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Walton, John Lawson(Leeds, S.

  Leng, Sir John

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Perks, Robert William

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Lundon, W.

  Price, Robert John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Rea, Russell

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Reddy, M.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Wilson, Chas. Henry (Hull, W.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk, Mid.

  M'Crae, George

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie(Dumfries

  Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.

  M'Kean, John

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  M'Kenna., Reginald

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Wood, James

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wodehouse, SirJ. T (Huddersf'd

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Runciman, Walter

  Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

  Russell, T. W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Sir Albert Rollit and Sir

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Shaw, Charles Edwd.(Stafford)

  Joseph Leese.

  Question proposed, "That Clause 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  MR. ASQUITH: Before the Committee passes this Clause I desire even now, much as it has been debated, to ask for some further and definite explanation from the Government as to what are to be the precise relations between these two sets of authorities which are going to be set up under this Clause. The position, as I understand it, is that at the present time under the Technical Instruction Act which is now the law these non-county boroughs or urban districts can supply technical education to the amount realised by the imposition of a penny rate. This Bill proposes to repeal the Technical Instruction Act, and that power will no longer exist if this Bill passes in its present form. I am merely asking for information, and I am not acting in any hostile spirit. Personally I may say at once that I should be very sorry to see any fund which at present exists cut off from the support of either technical or secondary education. It is not, therefore, with any disposition to abolish or
  482
  to curtail any source of revenue which at present exists for these purposes that I am making the appeal which I now make. But, Sir, it is most important as regards the final working of our whole system of secondary education that we should know definitely what are to be the relations of the County Councils to the smaller authorities. There are, as far as I have been able to discover, three possible relationships which have been suggested from time to time. There is the relationship of subordination, the relationship of alliance, which is, at any rate, hinted at by the concurrent power which this Clause contains; and there is the relation of Imperia in Imperio. I do not think I am exaggerating when I say that if the Clause passes in the form in which it is at present it is possible for the administrators of the Act and for any court of law to put upon this Clause any of these three constructions, and it is impossible to say at present which of the three is the correct one. The Clause is ambiguous and equivocal, and leaves the Committee in complete doubt, and the future administrators of the measure in complete

  483
  doubt, as to what is to be the real relationship between the two sets of authorities. Two things are of the utmost importance. The first is that the County Council shall be the supreme and responsible authority in secondary education, and the other is to bring into some kind of harmonious relationship with the County Councils those local authorities which at present had rating powers, and which ought, if possible, to exercise those powers in the future in harmonious action with the County Council. To leave the matter as it stands now promises a condition of administrative chaos. I am not quarrelling with any particular phrase in the clause, but I am simply asking for an explanation as to the general scope and effect of the words which have been introduced, and I do hope we shall receive some explicit statement from His Majesty's Government as to what is to be the relationship of these smaller authorities with the County Councils. Surely, at the same time, the Government will consider the advisability, at a later stage of the Bill, of introducing some definite language, so that this relationship will be clearly understood by those who have to administer this Act. I make this suggestion, not in any spirit of hostility to the Bill, but purely in the interests of secondary education.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid he also desired to press the question put by the hon. Member for North West Ham as to where they were now drifting in regard to this clause. He would remind the First Lord of the original scheme contained in this Bill. Clause 1 originally provided that sixty-two administrative counties should be autonomous paramount for secondary and elementary education, and, in addition to those, sixty-seven county boroughs were to be autonomous paramount authorities for secondary and elementary education. That made altogether 129 authorities under the Bill for elementary and secondary education. In addition to this, it was now provided that these powers should be extended to municipal boroughs with a population of over 10,000, which numbered 140, and also to urban districts over 20,000, which numbered 61, and these were to have autonomy for elementary education, with concurrent powers over secondary education. That brought the entire number of elementary and secondary authorities up to 330. What
  484
  had they got now as the result of the present discussion? In the first place, the Government had let in the non-county boroughs and the urban districts of all populations, which included 108 municipal boroughs and some 745 urban districts, making a total of 853 authorities over and above the 330 previously set up. He ventured to say that the interpretation which the First Lord had put upon this proposal was not quite correct. The Attorney General's name was on the back of the Bill, and if he would give the Committee his view, it would be more to the purpose than scoffing at the suggestion which he had ventured to put forward.
  It being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 3:—
  Question again proposed. "That Clause 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
  DR. MACNAMARA (continuing)said he had heard with consternation the; alarming interpretation which the First Lord had put on the functions of the non-county boroughs and urban districts; and he considered it of so serious a nature that he proposed to move the rejection of the clause. Where, he would like to know, were they drifting? The original scheme of the Bill, which he had cordially supported in principle, was that of a single authority for all grades of education, administering a suitable area. In this respect he was a sincere and convinced disciple of the Vice-President, whose speeches as to the necessity of one authority he had followed with great interest. But now it appeared that the scheme was to set up paramount authorities for all grades of education in each of the sixty-two administrative counties, and in each of the sixty-seven non-county boroughs, thus making 129 authorities; and the provisio would let in 140 municipal boroughs

  485
  over 10,000 population, and sixty-one urban districts over 20,000, thus making 201 authorities who would have an absolute autonomy over elementary education and concurrent' powers with the County Council over higher education. This gave in all 330 authorities. It was a monstrous farce to talk any longer about one authority. Moreover, they had now let in all non-county boroughs, who, while they were not to be autonomous for elementary education, were to be absolutely independent, up to a penny in the pound, with regard to higher education, thus giving 108 more authorities. Then they were letting in also the urban districts, who were to have autonomous independence, up to a penny in the pound for higher education, and these were no fewer than 745 in number. He had spent the interval of the Suspension in working out these figures, because he was anxious to see the Bill emerge from its Committee stage in as good an educational form as possible. He found that, in addition to the 330 authorities set up by the interpretation of the First Lord, there were to be 853 authorities for secondary education, making altogether the alarming total of 1,183 educational authorities. He must say that for a one authority Bill that was rather a large order. And this curious fact should be noted—that the autonomous authorities for higher education were four times as many as those for elementary education. That was not simply grotesque; it was the climax of grotesqueness. The Vice President in 1896, under a similar scheme, declared that 128 autonomous authorities were too many and, when the First Lord admitted 197 more, said he had killed the Bill. What had the right hon. Gentleman now to say when there were no fewer than 1,183 authorities to be created 1 The secondary authorities, according to the statement of the First Lord, ought to be less in number than the elementary authorities. The right hon. Gentleman had said that he did not desire to take away functions of the non-county boroughs and urban districts which already existed, but that was a very good argument for the non-abolition of the School Boards.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: We take no powers away from them.
  DR. MACXAMAEAsaid the Government wore taking away their existence altogether. The Bill repealed the Technical Instruction Acts altogether. The right hon. Gentleman said he simply wanted to set up something else which was equivalent. In regard to education "other than elementary" they were placing on the small bodies the obligation not only of continuing technical instruction, but of providing for the training of adult teachers. Therefore it was no argument to say that the Government went on this line of policy because they were 10th to take away powers which these bodies had already. They did more than continue former powers; they added a number of functions to those which they already possessed. At an earlier part of the debate he asked the First Lord of the Treasury whether the 1,183 authorities could, if they desired to, set up a secondary school in their own area in defiance of the wish of the County Council; and the right hon. Gentleman said, "Yes, if it were with their own penny." Then he asked if they would have the rate of the Education Committee for that purpose, and the First Lord replied "Yes." He could well imagine a small urban authority foregoing any right to a share in the whisky money and relying on its own penny in order to avoid interference by the County Council. He would take three typical counties. In Devonshire there would be, first of all, the administrative county, which would be able to levy up to 2d. in the £ for secondary education. Then there were the three county boroughs of Devonport, Exeter, and Plymouth, which would have the right to levy up to any sum for secondary education, and perfect autonomy in regard to elementary education. Then there were the three non-county boroughs of Barnstaple, Tiverton, and Torquay, which would be autonomous for elementary education, and also for higher education up to the limit of a Id. in the £, and thirty-four urban districts which would not be autonomous for elementary education but would be so for higher education up to a 1d. in the £. There was a spectacle! Forty-one different authorities in one county He commended that condition of things to Mr. W. S. Gilbert. In Cheshire there was the administrative

  487
  county, four county boroughs, six municipal boroughs over 10,000, one, urban district over 20,000, and thirty-three other urban districts and municipal boroughs, all with the various powers the corresponding bodies in Devonshire had. But Lancashire was the most remarkable of all. Starting with the administrative county, there were also sixteen county boroughs, which would be absolutely dominant for higher and elementary education, levying any rate they liked in both cases; nineteen municipal boroughs over 10,000; eleven urban districts over 20,000 with autonomy for elementary education and autonomy up to a 1d. in the£ for higher education; and, over and above all those eighty-six other non-county boroughs and urban districts not having any functions whatever with regard to elementary education, but having perfect autonomy and independence up to Id. in the £ for higher education. In Lancashire there would be 133 autonomous authorities for higher and forty-seven for elementary education. There were 1183 autonomous authorities for higher education, and 330 authorities for elementary education, and this- face to face with the fact that in 1896 the Vice-President of the Council stated that 197 would be fatal to any local government for education. The hon. Member hoped the case was not so bad as he had painted it, but his interpretation of the First Lord's statement was absolutely accurate. He hoped that before the Clause passed into law the Committee would hear from the Attorney-General what was the exact interpretation of all those new authorities. The Bill was a very long way from being what he considered to be a one-authority Bill, and he felt compelled to move the rejection of the Clause.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid the hon. Member for North Camberwell had on former occasions expressed a desire to hear him on the subject, and he would take this opportunity of stating his views. In the first place, he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the fact that the 1,183 authorities of which the hon. Member spoke were now in existence, and had been in existence during the last twelve years.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Not for this purpose.
  SIR. JOHN GOEST: During the whole of that time it had been open to any non-county borough or urban district to start a technical school in defiance of the County Council, and to the County Council to open a technical school on the opposite side of the street, or side by side, and for competition to be carried on between the two. Yet throughout the whole of England and Wales there had not been a single case in which such a thing had been done. Why? Because the County Councils and the councils of the non-county boroughs and the urban districts were commonsense men, who had used their powers in a rational, and not an irrational, manner. The case of Stockton had been quoted; but that was not a case of rival schools. The people of Stockton were aggrieved because the county of Durham did not give them a larger share of the local taxation money. He defied any hon. Member to point to a case in which the existence of these concurrent powers under the Technical Instruction Act had ever given rise to overlapping or to rival schools. So far so good. The hon. Member for North Camber-well objected that this Bill dealt not with technical, but with higher, education. But as the hon. Member himself well knew, the definition of technical education was extremely loose and wide. It included even continuation schools, and there were a number of evening continuation schools being carried on by the local taxation money. In Cambridgeshire where he lived it was their boast, and he believed the boast was true, that they had never levied a rate at all, and that there was a continuation school now within reach of every one of the inhabitants. That was the case of a rather sparsely populated county. Therefore, under the present Bill the local authorities would practically have to provide only the same kind of schools that they had been providing during the last twelve years. He thought they could teach a great deal of elementary instruction under the Technical Instruction Act. [An HON. MEMBER: "No."]—Well, but they did. After all, this was a matter in which they should not go upon theory and logic, but on the practical way in which a Bill of this kind was to be

  489
  worked in its administration. Hehadnever known in his life an Act of Parliament; logical from one end to the other. In a complicated civilisation like ours, there had to be a good deal of moderation and confidence, a good deal of give and take, to make our laws work as well as they had worked in actual practice. The hon. Member for North Camberwell might have made exactly the same speech in respect of the Technical Instruction Act; yet that "absurd" Act had worked perfectly well for twelve years without any hitch, or any of the difficulties which would have been conjured up by the hon. Gentleman if he had been in the House at that time, and if he had been in the same frame of mind then. When the Government framed this Bill, they were face to face with the fact that a number of authorities who possessed these powers had exercised them. A logical scheme would have swept the powers away; but the authorities would have remained, smarting under the sense of having been deprived, not only of authority, but of property. How could any new programme have been carried out with all these authorities initially unsympathetic? Originally, when the Bill was introduced by my right hon. friend, the plan was to deprive the smaller districts of their powers, and they would have been deprived, in; many cases, of what they regarded as their property in the schools they had built; but who made representations to the Government of the inexpediency of such a course? It was not the small boroughs, or the small urban districts themselves. It was the counties that brought this matter strongly to the notice of the Government. It was the great counties, in whose interest, and to preserve whose authority, the Government scheme was introduced. He was present last week when a most influential deputation waited on the Duke of Devonshire, representing all the great counties, and this point was urged most especially by the Chairman of the Lancashire County Council—the county to which the hon. Member had referred as the most grotesque case of all. That gentleman was Sir John Hibbert, whose name would be received with respect, especially by hon. Members opposite. When he sat in this House he was one
  490
  of the greatest ornaments of their Party. He was a man of knowledge and experience, and when he recommended a course of action, his opinion should be treated with some respect. The right hon. Gentleman did not think it was given to an hon. Member like the hon. Member for North Camberwell to describe Sir John Hibbert's representation as grotesque and absurd. It was most essential to the Clause that the powers of these authorities should be limited to a very small rate; because, with unlimited powers of rating, they might be tempted to set themselves up in opposition to the county authorities. But with only a penny rate it would be impossible to interfere with the general county management of education. The idea of the Bill was that the county authorities should inquire into the state of education and frame a general county scheme for secondary education. He would not at present go into a discussion on the question of elementary education, because that would be dealt with later on. If a county contemplated a great scheme including secondary education, what opposition would the urban districts or boroughs be able to give to it with a penny scheme 1 There would be an unlimited scheme in the county.
  DR. MACNAMARAsaid the rate proposed was twopence.
  SIR JOHN GORSTsaid the county authority would get the whole of the whisky money, and also the twopenny rate, but they would have unlimited power to increase the rate if they could convince the Local Government Board that their financial position warranted the expenditure. Compared with that of the little recalcitrant boroughs that was an enormous power. How, in these circumstances, could a small borough set itself up against the county authority? It would be foolish to try to do it. The county could proceed to carry out its plan irrespective of any trivial disturbance which might come from a municipal borough. If, on the other hand, as would be the case in 999 boroughs out of 1000, the borough authorities were reasonable and sensible men their power to levy a penny rate would greatly assist the county scheme. In return for the assistance of the district, the county would probably

  491
  establish the county school there, and thug give that individual interest which people acquired in things which they thought were their own. If the authorities of counties and small boroughs were people of ordinary intelligence and common sense, he thought that the preservation in the Bill of this power to levy the penny rate, in addition to the county rate, would greatly facilitate the spread of secondary' education. At all events, the Committee might take it that this was the opinion of Sir John Hibbert, and it was the opinion which the representatives of all County Councils in England had urged on the Government as facilitating their operations and in making it more easy for them to carry out the plan which they understood to be the plan of the Bill. That being their opinion, and it being most essential that a Bill should be passed which was in accordance with the views and the opinions of those who had to carry out its provisions, it would be most unfortunate if the Committee were to reject this Clause on the fanciful objections urged by the hon. Member.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid the Committee had heard a great deal about the opinion of Sir John Hibbert, and very little about the opinion of Sir John Gorst. It was a pity that the right hon. Gentleman, having got up to answer the speech of his hon. friend the Member for North Camberwell, should have thought fit to sit down without giving the Committee the benefit of his own opinion. They knew what was the opinion of the Vice-President in 1896, and so far he had not been able to gather anything in the course of the debates on the Bill to show that the right hon. Gentleman had discarded any of the opinions he then held, and which he declared in emphatic language to the House. Moreover, the right hon. Gentleman had, no doubt, been consulted by the Government in the framing of the Bill; and the scheme of the Government, at any rate at the beginning, was not to bring in those small bodies. It was to destroy the small bodies as autonomous centres, and to take from them the property they possessed, or thought they possessed. If that was the scheme of the Government, had the right hon. Gentleman given sufficient reason for saying that now they must preserve these small bodies?
  492
  Sir John Hibbert was, no doubt, under the impression that the County Council was to be the governing authority, but now there had been created a vast number of small autonomous centres. If these small bodies which were now included in the Bill had a penny rate, they would be able to form a Committee and to frame a scheme of their own. That would cause the functions of those small bodies to clash with the general functions of the County Council. The small bodies in their particular centres would be the persons to decide whether they would have a school of their own, and were they likely to sit down and allow it to be in the hands of the County Council? The First Lord of the Treasury said, "No, they are to be autonomous in this regard." That was what hon. Members on this side of the House thought was not conducive to the interests of higher education. That was chiefly why he was entirely against giving autonomy in the matter of higher education to the smaller boroughs. He wanted to know why these urban districts were to be invested with this autonomous power if the larger rural districts were not also to be invested with the same power. An Urban Council like Frinton-on-Sea, in Essex, with a population of seventy-five persons, was to have autonomy; while large rural districts, with populations of 20,000 and upwards, were to be deprived of it. There would be a similar anomaly in the case of Child wall, in Lancashire, with a population of 219. These were cases which lie took simply at random. He wondered what Sir John Hibbert would say after reading the speech of the First Lord of the Treasury in regard to the creation of a vast number of autonomous centres. As the clause now stood, it was in a hopeless jumble. He did not believe the Government themselves understood it, or that it carried out their own intentions.
  MR. WALTER LONGrose in his place, and claimed to move. "That the Question he now put."
  (9.57.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 195; Noes, 117. (Division List No. 257.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Percy, Earl

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Green, Ernest (West Ham)

  Pierpoint. Robert

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Grove, James Grimble

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Arrol, Sir William

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Hain, Edward

  Purvis, Robert

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Had, Edward Marshall

  Pym, C. Guy

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Hamilton Rt. Hn. L'rdG. (Middx

  Randles, John S.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r.

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'ndnderry

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Half our, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Ban bury, Frederick George

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjmin

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Beaeh, Rt. Hn. Sir Mieha'l Hicks

  Henderson, Alexander

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Robertson, Herbert (Haekney)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Bigwood, James

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Bill, Charles

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Russell, T. W.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Rutherford, John

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Brassey, Albert

  Horner, Fredrick William

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hoult, Joseph

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isleof Wight

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Bull, William James

  Hudson, George Bickerstath

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Butcher, John George

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Spear, John Ward

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Johnstone, Hey wood (Sussex)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Chamberlain, J. Austen(Wor'c.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Ste wart, Sir M ark J. M'Taggart

  Chapman, Edward

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Charrington, Spencer

  Lawson, John Grant

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Clive. Capt. Percy A.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G.(Oxf'd Univ.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Lucas, Regd. J. (Portsmouth)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Edison

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  MacIver. David (Liverpool)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.(T'nton

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Maconochie. A. W.

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.

  Denny, Colonel

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(E'inburgh, W

  Williams, Rt. Hn. J Powell(Birm.

  Dorington, Sir John Edward

  M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Maxwell, W J H(Dumfriesshire

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Milvain, Thomas

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Dyke, Rr, Hon Sir William Hart

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh. N.)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  More, Robt. Jasper(Shropshire)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Morgan, David J.(Walth'stow)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wood, James

  Finch, George H.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham(Bute

  Wylie, Alexander

  Fison, Frederick William

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Flower, Ernest

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Younger, William

  Forster, Henry William

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Gordon, Hn. JE.(Elgin & Nairn)

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry. S.)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Pease, Herbet Pike(Darlingt'n

  Tellers for the Ayes—

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Peel, Hon. Win. R. Wellesley

  Sir William Walrond and

  Coulding, Edward Alfred

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William(Cork, N. E.)

  Black, Alexander William

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Boland, John

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Brigg, John

  Burns. John

  494

  495

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Caldwell, James

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Cameron, Robert

  Joicey, Sir James

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Jones, David Brynm'r (Swansea

  Perks, Robert William

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Reddy, M.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Jordon, Jeremiah

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Charming, Francis Allston

  Joyce, Michael

  Redmond. William (Clare)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Kitson, Sir James

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lambert, George

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Langley, Batty

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Leamy, Edmund

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Delany, William

  Leese, Sir Jos. F. (Accrington)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lloyd-George, David

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Lundon, W.

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R(Northants

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Edwards, Frank

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Thomas, JA(Glamorgan, Gower

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  M'Crae, George

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Kean, John

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Flynn, James Christopher

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Foster, Sir Michael(Lond. Univ.

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Whitley, George(York, W. R.)

  Grant, Corrie

  Murphy, John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Wilson, Fred. W.(Norfolk. Mid.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth. South)

  Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Yoxall, Jamea Henry

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'rary Mid

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

  Mr. William M'Arthur

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  O'Dowd, John

  and Mr. Causton.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Malley, William

  (10.8.) Question put accordingly, "That Clause 3, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Fison, Frederick William

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Fitzmaurics, Lord Edmund

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Chapman, Edward

  Fitrzoy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Flavie, Michael Joseph

  Arrol, Sir William

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Flower, Ernest

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Forster, Henry William

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Gordon, Hn. J. E(Elgin & Nairn)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Gray, Ernsst (West Ham)

  Beach. Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Delany, William

  Green, Walford D.(Wednesb'ry

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Denny, Colonel

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Groves, James Grimble

  Bigwood, James

  Donelan, Capt. A.

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Bill, Charles

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hain, Edward

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Dorington, Sir John Edward

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Boland, John

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G.(Mid'x.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hamilton, Marq. of(L'nd'nd'rry

  Brassey, Albert

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Win.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Harris, Fredrick Leverton

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Bull, William James

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Henderson, Alexander

  Butcher, John George

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Finch, George H.

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Cavendish, V. C W. (Derbyshire

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E,

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 232; Noes, 87. (Division List No. 258.)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Mowbray, Sir Robert, Gray C

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Murphy. John

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Horner, Frederick William

  Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham(Bute

  Sniith, Abel H.(HeiUurd. EaM)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Spear, John Ward

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claver house

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipp' rary Mid

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Johnston, William(Belfast)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Joyce, Michael

  O' Dowd, John

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  O'Malley. William

  Sullivan, Donal

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Talbot Rt. Hn J. G.(Oxf'd Univ.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Lawson, John Grant

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Leamy, Edmund

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Valentia, Viscount

  Legge, Col. Hon Heneage

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Warde, Colonel C E.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Percy, Earl

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. Taunt'n)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Platt Higgins, Frederick

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E.(Notts.

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Went worth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Lundon, W.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Whiteley, H(Ashton und. Lyne

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. WG Ellison

  Purvis, Robert

  William, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm

  Macdona, John Gumming

  Pym, C. Gay

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Randles, John S.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Wilcox, Sir John Archibald

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Reddy, M.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Wilson, J. W.(Worcestersh. N.

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh W

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Middlemore, J no. Throgmorton

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Milvain, Thomas

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Rutherford. John

  Younger, William

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Sackville, Col. S, G. Stopford-

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES-

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Sir William Walrond and

  Mount, William Arthur

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B (IsleofWight

  Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Foster, Sir M'eh'el (L'nd'n Univ.

  Lloyd-George, David

  Allen, Charles P (Gloue., Stroud

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Crae, George

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Grant, Corrie

  M'Kean, John

  Black, Alexander William

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Brigg, John

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Burns, John

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Caldwell, James

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Perks, Robert William

  Cameron, Robert

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Roberts, John H.(Denbighs.)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Joiecy, Sir James

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Jones, Dav. Brynmor (Swansea

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

  Russell, T. W.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Kitson, Sir James

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lambert, George

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Langley, Batty

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R.(Northants

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Tennant, Harold John

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Leese, Sir Joseph F.(Accrington

  Thomas, J A(Glamorgan, Gower

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Tomkinson, James

  498

  499

  Trevelvan, Charles Philips

  White, Luke (York, E. R)

  Wood, James

  Toke, Sir John Batty

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

  Woohouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Wason, John Catheart (Orkney

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Dr. Macnamara and Mr.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Samuel Evans.

  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I beg to move that you, Sir, report progress. The Committee has been engaged for some time in discussing the details of this important clause, and when all the Amendments wore exhausted there came the natural period for the discussion of the clause as a whole. By the clock, we have been occupied fifty minutes on the clause itself. Some most important speeches were made. There was a short and pointed speech from my right hon. friend the Member for East Fife, before the dinner hour; and there was a most elaborate indictment of the clause, and an exposure of the hollow condition into which the Government have managed to struggle during the discussion on this Bill, by my hon. friend the Member for North Camberwell. No answer to these allegations was attempted by the Minister of Education. Member after Member was ready to speak on this side, and when the hon. Member for East Somerset on the other side—who, at least, is an authority that the Government and their friends will recognise—was inviting the Committee to listen to him, a Minister—not the Minister in charge of the Bill—moved that the Question be now put.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that no reflection is possible on the action of the Committee in deciding that the Question be now put.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am aware of that fact, Sir. What I am reflecting upon is not the action of the Committee, but the action of His Majesty's Government. The right hon. Gentleman opposite is responsible for the conduct of these debates, and it is his duty to see that the Committee has ample opportunity for discussing the position.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I think the right hon. Gentleman is aware that it is not permissible to go back on a decision which has been come to by the Committee. It is obvious that if we were to go back and discuss the question of closure
  500
  every time it is applied there would never be any end to our proceedings. I cannot allow any reflection to be passed either on the Minister for having moved, or the Committee for having passed, the closure. As for the discretion in. accepting such a Motion, that rests with me.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I accept your ruling, Sir, that there is to be no reflection on the conduct of the Minister; but we are at least entitled to say, as we remain without the full information that we desire as to real intentions of the Government in regard to this vital clause, and as we have been hitherto denied that positive and accurate information which it was our business to demand, and which we ought to have received, that there is ample reason for the Motion which I am about to make. I do not know that I am entitled now to go back on the whole question of the unity of authorities, but, as my hon. friend the Member for North Camberwell has said, he regards himself, as a good many regard themselves, as having been induced by a sort of confidence trick, on many occasions, to support the views of the Government. My hon. friend is a strong advocate of the unity of authority, and now he finds that there is to be no unity of authority.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The right hon. Gentleman will not be in order in discussing that question.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I will not discuss the merits of the question, as I see I am to be kept between very narrow bounds, but. at all events, I have said enough to show—if the courtesy of hon. Gentlemen opposite will permit me to proceed—that we on this side think that there is abundant reason for reporting progress and ceasing to continue now the discussion of a Bill in regard to which we have been treated in the manner in which the Government have treated us.

  501
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Sir H. Campbell-Bannerman.)
  THE CHAIRMAN: The Question is, that I report progress and ask leave to sit again. Under Standing Order 23, I shall immediately put the Question.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON(Dun-

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'ary Mid.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Brien, Patrick (KilKenny)

  Allen, Charles P.(Glouc., Stroud

  Gurdon. Sir W. Brampton

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary N.)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow W.

  Asquith, Rt. Hn Herbert Henry

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Dowd, John

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  O'Malley, William

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Black, Alexander William

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Pease, J. A. (saffron Walden)

  Boland, John

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Perks, Robert William

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Reddy, M.

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Brigg, John

  Joicey, Sir James

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jones, Dav. Brynmor (Swansea

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Bryce, Kt. Hon. James

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Burke, K. Haviland-

  Joyce, Michael

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Burns, John

  Kitson, Sir James

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Buxton. Sydney Charles

  Lambert, George

  Russell, T. W.

  Caldwell, James

  Langley, Batty

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Cameron, Robert

  Leyland-Barratt, Francis

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Leamy, Edmund

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (N'thants)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Sullivan, Donal

  Chinning, Francis Allston

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Tennant, Harold John

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, J. A. (Glamor. Gower

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. K.)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lundon, W.

  Tomkinson, James

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Delany, William

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Wason, John Cath cart(Orkney

  Donelan, Captain A.

  MacVeagh, Jeremiah

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Doogan, P. C.

  M'Crae, George

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Kean, John

  Whireley, George(York, W. R.

  Duncan. J. Hastings

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Edwards, Frank

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Evans, Samuel T.(Glamorgan)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wilson, Henry J.(York, W. R.)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wood, James

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Morley, Charles (Breconehire)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T.(Hud'rsfid

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Murphy, John

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Nolan, Joseph (Loath, South)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Mr. William M'Arthur

  Grant, Corrie

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  and Mr. Causton.

  NOES?.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Bull, William James

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Butcher, John George

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh 0.

  Bignold, Arthur

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bigwood, James

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bill, Charles

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Chamberlain, J. Austen(Worc'r

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Bond, Edward

  Chapman, Edward

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Charrington, Spencer

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

  Brassey, Albert

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Ban bury, Frederick George

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  dee): Sir, I desire to ask you whether you rule that this Motion of my right hon. friend is an abuse of the Rules of the House.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Yes.
  (10.28.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 124; Noes, 212. (Division List No. 259.)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. K.)

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbrige

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claverhouse

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Morton

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Cripps Charles Alfred

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Robertson, Horbert(Hackney;

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kenyon-Sianey, Col. W. (Salop.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Denby, Colonel

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Rutherford, John

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Lawson, John Grant

  Samuel. Harry S. (Limehouse

  Dorington, Sir John Edward

  Legge, Colonel Hon. Heneage

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Douglas, lit. Hon. A. Akers-

  Leign-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Seely, Maj J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Doxford, Sir William Pheodore

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Durning,- Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Long, Rt, Hn Walter(Bristol, S.)

  Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East)

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lonsdale, John Brownies

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lowe, Francis William

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D.(Strand)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Spear, John Ward

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Ed.

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur(Ormskirk

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Macartney, Rt Hn W G. Ellison

  Stanley, Lord (Lancas.)

  Finch, George II.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Maclver, David (Liverpool)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Fison, Frederick William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  FitzGerald, Sir Rob't Penrose-

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis(Edinb'rgh W.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Fitzroy, Hon. Ed. Algernon

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf d Univ.

  Flower, Ernest

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Forster, Henry William

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

  Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray

  Foster, Sir Michael(Lond. Univ

  Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

  Tufnell, Lt.-Colonel Edward

  Gardner, Ernest

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Gordon, Hn. J. E.(Elgin & Nairn

  Milvain, Thomas

  Valentia, Viscount

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E(Taunton

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Morgan, David J. (Walt'stow)

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Whiteley, H. (As'ton und. Lyne

  Groves, James Grimble

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hain, Edward

  Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham(Bute

  Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  William, Col. R. (Dorset)

  Hamilton, Rt Hn. LdG. (Midd'x

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Willough by, de Eresby, Lord

  Hamilton, Mq of (Londonderry

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt, Wm.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Wilson, A. Stanley(York, E. R.)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington

  Wilson, J. W. (Wor'tersh' N.)

  Heath, Arthur Hn ward (Hanley

  Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.

  Henderson, Alexander

  Percy, Earl

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Pier point, Robert

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Higginbottom, S. W,

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hobhouse, Henry(Somerset, E.)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Purvis, Robert

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Hope, J. F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Pym, C. Guy

  Younger, William

  Horner, Frederick William

  Randles, John S.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Sir Wm. Walrond and

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Clause 4:—
  MR. LLOYD-GEOEGEsaid he begged to move the postponement of Clause 4, for the following reasons. The first was that it was a clause which dealt with the question of religion, and he did not think that they were in a frame of mind at the present moment, through no fault of their own, to discuss it. Up to the present they had been discussing the question of secondary education in the
  504
  true spirit of Christian charity, and if they were upset now, it was entirely due to the action of the Government. Besides that, they were entitled to know where they were before they entered on the discussion of the religious question. They could not discuss the question of religious instruction as it bore on secondary education without taking into account the whole question of religious instruction in connection with primary as well as secondary education.

  505
  They could not deal out one measure for secondary education, and another measure for primary education. He wished to point out the position they were in in discussing the question of religious instruction in connection with secondary education. As the Bill stood at the present moment, it created about 1,200 little authorities, and he was bound to point out how that bore on the clause, and why, to his mind, they ought to postpone the consideration of the clause until they really knew what the Government had decided to do. The Government could subsidise all those little Church academies in every town and village throughout the country without any sort of control at all. With regard to primary education, the Government at least proposed to give one-third of the management, and he maintained that the Committee ought not to proceed with the discussion of the clause until they had decided what they would do with religious education all round. Under the Welsh Intermediate scheme, no sectarian schools of any kind were subsidised. Why would not the Government adopt that scheme, or wait until they could see what the whole scheme of the" Bill would be? What had the Government done? If he might use the term they had Rollitised the education system of the country, and they had created a large number of authorities, which made the scheme ridiculous. If the Bill stood as it was that morning, at any rate, the clause would only have applied to training colleges of a substantial character, and to technical schools established by the County Councils where no religious instruction of any denomination was given. Now, the whole scheme had been changed to such an extent that it applied to all the little schools throughout the country, which were purely denominational, and which belonged to Catholics, Anglicans, Wesleyans, Baptists, and other denominations. That changed the whole position when they came to consider the question of religious instruction. He had another reason for moving that the clause be postponed. He had already asked the Government, and he thought they were entitled to know before they went any further, now that they had come to the really controversial part of
  506
  the Bill, whether the Government had made up their mind. Up to the present, the only controversy was between those who were in favour of strengthening and improving secondary education, and the Church party, who did not want any education at all. That was the only religious issue which had been introduced. But now they came to the really controversial part of the Bill. They had heard about suggestions which the Government were to make on the question of religious instruction. The Committee should know them, or the clause should be postponed until the Government had made up their mind. Up to the present, the Government had simply accepted the dictation of the small section of their own followers. If that were not so, what became of the memorial to the Government from a large body of their own supporters in favour of increased control? The Government had not consulted the feelings of the Committee, but had accepted the dictation of that retinue of acolytes who had been dragging the trail of priesthood through the lobbies of the House of Commons. He thought they were entitled to know whether the Government were prepared to regard the whole of this question independently, without listening to dictation from any quarter; and whether they were prepared to simply pass the Bill as an educational measure, and for educational reasons to sacrifice some minimum, at any rate, of their extreme views on this question, in order to get a really national system of education. It would be in the interests of the Bill to postpone this clause with a view to a conference of reasonable men, to consider what should be done. If they were to decide now that the second part of the Bill was to be stamped with sectarianism, if the Government were going to subsidise sectarian schools, academies, and colleges, without any kind of control by the County Councils, then it would be absolutely impossible to arrive at any reasonable solution. He appealed to the Government in the interests of the progress of the Bill itself. He could assure hon. Gentlemen opposite that the events which had just happened would not facilitate the progress of the Bill. Quite the reverse. Up to the

  507
  present the spirit of conciliation which had been displayed had done more for progress than the spirit of coercion; and he would ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether he did not think that it would be in the interests of the Bill, taking into account the temper of the House, that the Motion should be accepted, and that they should not now embark on the highly controversial subject of religious instruction.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Clause 4 be postponed."—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It is tolerably evident, from the tenour of the singular speech we have just heard, that, in the view of the hon. Member who has just sat down, what he is pleased to describe as the uncontroversial stage of this Bill has now been passed. The hon. Member really means the stage during which the discussions were courteous, and it is only too patent from the remarks which have just fallen from him, that the hon. Member considers himself at liberty in dealing with the question of religious education, at all events, to throw aside absolutely any indication of religious charity. I have always disapproved of these methods, and I will not endeavour to imitate them. When I pass from the vituperation of the hon. Member to the arguments he has advanced in support of his Motion, I confess I find myself somewhat at a loss. I rather admire the hon. Gentleman's power of vituperation, but I cannot in my heart admire his style of argument. This clause deals with the vexed and difficult question of religious education for secondary schools. Why are we to postpone it, and divorce it forcibly from that part of the Bill which deals with secondary education? Neither reason, nor logic, nor the practice of this House, nor common sense, suggests that such a course is preferable or desirable. It is too much to hope—indeed after the speech of the hon. Member, I have almost ceased to hope—that we should approach this question in that calm spirit which would certainly be fitting in a discussion of this kind. Why am I to promise myself or the House a more happy condition of the Parliamentary atmosphere when we have
  508
  deferred the discussion of religious education for secondary schools until we have calmed our temper over the discussion of religious education in primary schools. I see nothing in the future clauses of the Bill in the nature of an anodyne and, though I regret that there should be any feeling of temper, of irritation, or impatience, I am quite unable to charge myself with having contributed to it. At all events we are quite as likely to be able to discuss this clause in its proper place in the Bill as we should be, if we now artificially divorce it from its proper context, and discuss it in a part of the Bill to which it does not properly belong. The hon. Gentleman said that in so far as we had made progress with this Bill that progress had been made by conciliation. By conciliation I understand him to mean accepting Amendments, and yet the very hon. Gentleman who made that observation said we had absolutely destroyed the Bill by accepting Amendments; and because we had accepted Amendments he regarded himself as justified in asking the Committee to postpone this clause.
  MR. LLOYD-GEOKGE: The Amendment was a bad one.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: By conciliation the hon. Gentleman really means accepting good Amendments; and by good Amendments he means Amendments he himself agrees with. That is a very narrow definition of conciliation, and it is not one which I think the Committee would do well to add to its dictionary. I think I have answered everything in the nature of argument which the hon. Gentleman brought before the Committee. Surely it is plain on the face of it that this is the proper point with which to deal with this question of religious education. Painful as it may be, and is, to drag this topic into the arena of controversy, there is no man in this House who does not know that I am speaking the absolute truth when I say that whatever Bill is introduced, whether it be favourable to the views of hon. Members opposite,' or favourable to the views of hon. Members who support the

  509
  Government, it is unhappily—most unhappily—not possible to deal with education, primary or secondary for this country, without raising this question of religions education. If we all believe, as we have been told ad nauseam, with endless repetition, in these debates, that it is necessary for us to deal boldly with the question of education, we have unhappily to reconcile ourselves to the correlative necessity of having, to the best of our ability, to deal with the question of religious education. That is an absolute necessity—whoever brings forward an Education Bill, whatever principle it embodies, and whatever party is responsible for it. I can only beg the House to do for its part what I certainly desire to do for mine—to try to deal with a question bristling with difficulties, raising every kind of passion, but which yet must be dealt with in a spirit of calmness, and if possible of Christian charity, to deal with a topic which we cannot avoid, and which I trust we may be able to settle in a spirit befitting such a great Assembly.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that debates in this House should be as courteous as possible. He thought he might say that his hon. friend did not intend to be discourteous to the right hon. Gentleman, any more than any other hon. Member on that side ever did. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would now consider the matter calmly and dispassionately. He admired the first part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech very much. He never liked the right hon. Gentleman better than when he was quiet, but while the right hon. Gentleman was inviting the Committee to a calm and dispassionate discussion, he was striking the box on the Table. At the commencement of the right hon. Gentleman's observations, he displayed no violence, either mental or physical; but immediately he began to talk of Christian charity he began to smite the box, rather to the discomfort of his own hand. He did not think that at present the Committee was in a mood to properly discuss the Clause. Surely the best plan was to face the situation. The right hon. Gentleman had frequently to fight against Motions for adjournment,
  510
  and after an hour had been wasted, he had to fall in with the general sense of the House. He ventured to think that the general sense of the House now was that they should not proceed with the discussion of the Clause. He might be wrong, but that was his view. Did the right hon. Gentleman think that any good could be done in the fifty-five minutes that now remained if they embarked on the discussion of the Clause. It was obvious that if any one wished to prolong the discussion on the Education Bill, he could not have devised a better means than that which had been devised by the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues. Up to a certain hour the discussion was proceeding drearily. He could say that because he took part in it himself, and the Bill was going through by weight of dreariness when the absence of the right hon. Gentleman gave occasion to a more ardent colleague.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman will not be in order in reflecting on the action of the Minister who moved the closure.
  MR. SAMUEL EVANSsaid he did not intend to make any reflection, and would withdraw any reflection which anybody thought he might have seemed to make. The argument was that in the state of feeling now prevailing in the House, the right hon. Gentleman could not hope to make progress with the Bill, particularly when a Clause dealing with religious instruction had to be considered. Another strong argument was that they really did not know the effect of the variation in the terms of Clause 3. Clause 4 stated that a council in the application of money under the Act should not require any particular form of instruction to be given in a school. What council was referred to? He was not a friend of the Bill, but if he were promoting it, he would consider that the best way of making progress was to accept the Motion before the Committee and not to force the House of Commons to deal with the clause in present circumstances, especially when the question involved excited feeling and passion on all sides.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid he wished to re-echo the words of the First Lord of the Treasury. The ardour displayed during the last hour was, he thought, due to other causes than interest in the Education Bill. Those who had been working hard during the afternoon, and who, he hoped, were educationists first, regretted as much as anyone the temper into which the House had got; and he would re-echo the words of the right hon. Gentleman frankly and earnestly that they might get back to the practice of Christian charity in the discussion of the matter. Many hon. Members could get back to that better and more quickly than the First Lord of the Treasury, because they had not a box in front of them. He would put a point to the right hon. Gentleman, which he thought would be of value. If they postponed Clause 4 they could proceed with Clause 5, which was a Clause with reference to which many hon. Members had been waiting for some explicit declaration from the Government. They wished to know if the Government were going to kill the School Boards or keep the option alive, and on the answer to that would depend very largely the attitude many hon. Members would take up on the religious question. If the School Boards were to be kept alive where the municipal authorities desired it, an entirely different position would be created. Many hon. Members had tried to obtain an answer to that question, and he thought the right hon. Gentleman would allow that the debates would have been shorter if he had answered it earlier. The practice which the Government had adopted of refusing to give any indication of their intention as to a particular Clause until it had been reached, was largely responsible for the length of the debates.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman is not now giving reasons for the postponement of the Clause.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid he was sorry if he had broken the Rule; but he was only pointing out that if the policy they now advocated had been followed in the past the discussions would have been shorter. The First Lord of the Treasury had declared that hon. Members knew in their conscience that what they were saying when they brought forward arguments was not true.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I think the hon. Member will feel on reflection that the statement he had made just now that the First Lord of the Treasury was in the habit of accusing hon. Gentlemen of saying that which they did not believe to be true, is going far beyond what is justifiable.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid if he said that he would withdraw it at once, and apologise for saying it. It was not quite easy for a man who was only a few months in the House to be called upon suddenly to remember language which had been used. They, on that side of the House, did not, however, like the reflections which had been made upon them; and when the First Lord came to reconsider what he said tonight, he hoped he would remember also the really earnest efforts made by many hon. Members on that side of the House to make the Bill a better Bill. Many of them had voted against their Party and in support of the Government. Their desire was, if possible, to thresh out a decently workable Bill. That could be done only if the Committee came back to the temper in which it had previously discussed the measure. If the right hon. Gentleman would now proceed with Clause 5 and make a declaration of the Government's intention with regard to the option, the Committee would have time to think over the matter, and be able to take up the discussion of Clause 4 on the morrow in a manner which would be profitable both to themselves and the Bill.
  MR. M'KENNAsaid he desired to submit a somewhat complicated and intricate argument. The Amendment accepted by the First Lord on Clause 3 would, he contended, require the complete reconstruction of Clause 4. Under Clause 12 the Council would have to act through the Education Committee. Under the Amendment of Clause 3 the Committee had established hundreds of new Educational Committees which would have no point of contact with the Board of Education or the Local Government Board. Consequently, if this Clause stood in its present form, there would be no means of applying compulsion to the Education Committee to

  513
  carry out the Clause. He was referring to small urban districts. A totally independent Committee would be constituted, and there was no authority which could compel them to observe this Clause. He therefore submitted that Clause 4 should be postponed till the effect of the Amendment of Clause 3 had been considered, and Clause 12 had been discussed.
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid that the suggestion of the First Lord of the Treasury that support of this Motion could only be found in vituperation and not in argument was not exactly in keeping with his appeal for Christian charity.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think the hon. Gentleman has misunderstood what I said. I was not making a general observation, but making a criticism, perhaps undeserved, but still a criticism on the particular speech to which I was replying.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I must answer that.
  MR. ALFRED HUTTONsaid his hon. friend needed no defence from him, but he was sure that his speech was not lacking in well - reasoned argument. The First Lord attempted to answer the argument by saying that Clause 4 was a conscience Clause affecting secondary education; that therefore it was applicable to and ought not to be divorced from this part of the Bill. But the Committee were in the singular position of not knowing until they came to Clause 18 what the Government meant by secondary education. The only definition they had had up to the present was that it was other than elementary. Until the Government had made it clear what they meant by secondary education, it was obvious that this Clause could not be properly discussed. Then, too, the question of religious instruction and the conscience Clause affecting it would be greatly influenced according to whether or not private schools were to be subsidised and come under the scheme of the Government. It those schools were to be entirely in the hands of private individuals, one kin of conscience Clause
  514
  would be suitable, whereas if they were to be in the hands of publicly elected bodies an entirely different Clause would be required. There were also schools being carried on under the Cowper-Temple Clause. Whether that Clause would be applicable or not in that case they could not say until they knew whether the schools would be secondary or elementary. With regard to these different classes of schools it was impossible to form a right judgment until the Government had given their definition of secondary education.
  MR. GEORGE WHITELEYsaid the hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs had supported his Motion with important and cogent arguments, to which no reply whatever had been made. The First Lord had instead read the hon. Member a lesson on the art and practice of Christian charity. They regarded the right hon. Gentleman as a teacher in many matters of political, social and philanthropic—
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is not now giving reasons for postponing the Clause.
  MR. GEORGE WHITELEYsaid there were forcible reasons for the postponement. The Committee was in an undesirable frame of mind for dealing with a matter of such great importance. No topic so magnified differences or rent parties asunder as a religious topic. By the acceptance of Amendments, Clause 3 had been so altered that it was in an entirely different form from that in which it was introduced. It was, therefore, necessary to inspect carefully the new form of the Clause, and that could not be done until they had seen it in print. All discussion on Clause 4 would be perfectly valueless, so far as moulding it so as best to deal with the important question involved was concerned, unless the Committee had before it the whole of the Bill so far as it had gone, with the various Amendments. He represented a constituency which was Nonconformist in tendency, though he was not of that persuasion, and it was necessary to walk warily and to hold the balance fairly between the Church of England on the one side, and Nonconformity on the other.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is not giving reasons for postponing the Clause, and I must remind him of the Standing Order against irrelevancy.
  MR. GEORGE WHITELEYsaid he was endeavouring to show why it was not desirable to deal with the religious question until other matters had been dealt with. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider his decision, and not hurry this matter through as the previous Clause had been.
  SIR H CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid a number of his hon. friends had adduced, as he thought, excellent reasons for the postponement of this Clause. The reason just referred to by his hon. friend should suffice in itself, namely, that the changes made in Clauses 1, 2, and 3, had been so great and important that they ought really to have those Clauses in their amended form before them. The right hon. Gentleman must see that, as these Clauses related to the secondary education part of the Bill, they ought to have the machinery which had been approved by the Committee fully before them before entering on this religious difficulty. The right hon. Gentleman had been very strong in his advocacy of Christian charity, and he seemed to think that there were wicked and subversive people who would disturb his even calm by always introducing this religious difficulty. Apparently, he did not realise the fact that the religious difficulty originated far more with his own friends than with Members on the Opposition side of the House. The latter might seem sensitive on the subject; but it was because attacks had been made upon them. If, however, the right hon. Gentleman remained obdurate and declined to report progress, they must have a division. It would then be time to go home and probably tomorrow they would be in a better frame of mind on both sides of the House. But the night would not have been spent in vain if the Government had learned that it was not by driving and forcible measures that they were likely to make progress with their Bill.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid he understood that, if this Motion were carried, the Clause would go back to the very end of the Bill and would not come up for discussion until
  516
  the rest of the Bill had been disposed of. He really did not think that was a reasonable proposal. He spoke as one who had voted for the Second Reading of the Bill, and who, upon many of the vital points of the measure, was not in agreement, he was sorry to say, with his good friends on that side of the House. Speaking in that capacity, he put it to the Government whether they were not getting into a ridiculous position. They had now reached one of the most debateable and serious portions of the Bill, and it seemed a ridiculous thing for the First Lord of the Treasury to force on the discussion of the matter at this time. He could make no progress, because the clock was against him. He ventured to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman would be well advised if he allowed the proceedings to come to an end now and took up this fresh subject tomorrow, when, perhaps, they would all be in a better frame of mind. If the right hon. Gentleman did not do so he would not make any progress and he would certainly not promote the reasonable discussion of this Clause when they met again tomorrow. While he could not support the proposal to postpone this clause indefinitely to the end of the Bill, he would press upon the right hon. Gentleman the advisability of making this small concession by not asking them to commence at this late hour, a discussion upon this new and thorny subject.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid it was with some feelings of compunction that he trespassed for a second time upon the indulgence of the Committee in connection with this Amendment. The Leader of the Opposition had urged the Committee to acccept this Motion on the ground that so many important changes had been introduced into the first three Clauses of the Bill that it was impossible to proceed now with the fourth Clause, until hon. Members had had an opportunity of seeing the first three Clauses in their amended form. He thought that if he had given the close attention to the debates that his colleague the Member for Aberdeen had done, he would have known that the first Clause passed without any Amendment at all, that, as regarded the second Clause, there were no changes of substance but only changes of phraseology, and that the alteration in Clause 3, which was, moved last night, was whether it was good or bad, simplicity itself. If the

  517
  right hon. Gentleman's proposal were carried out they would adjourn the discussion as soon as an Amendment was accepted, and no Government would ever accept an Amendment. Indeed the conduct of Parliamentary business would be impossible. He ventured to suggest that the right hon. Gentleman should not press that canon of conduct upon the House. The Leader of the Nationalist Party had said he disapproved of the Amendment, but on the whole there was nothing to be gained by continuing the discussion of it. He could not agree, because he thought they ought to conclude the discussion of it that night.

  AYES.

  Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud

  Harms worth, R. Leicester

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Black, Alexander William

  Hemphill. Rt. Hn. Charles H.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Holland, William Henry

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Runciman, Walter

  Brigg. John

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Russell, T. W.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  B own, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'usea

  Shipman, Dr. John G,

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Burns, John

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R (Northants

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Kitson, Sir James

  Tennant, Harold John

  Caldwell, James

  Lambert, Geerge

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Langley, Batty

  Thomas, David Alfred(Merthyr

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan Gower

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leese, Sir Joseph F (Accrington

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Tomkinson, James

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Toulmin, George

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lloyd-George, David

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lough, Thomas

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Dewar, John A.(Inverness-sh.)

  M'Crae, George

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Whiteley, George(York, W. K.)

  Edwards, Frank

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Evans, Samuel T (Glamorgansh

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmund

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Wilson, Fred. W (Norfolk, Mid.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Norton, Capt. William Cecil

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wood, James

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Partington, Oswald

  Wood house, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd

  Grant, Corrie

  Paulton, James Mellor

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Mr. Herbert Gladstone and

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Perks, Robert William

  Mr. William M'Arthur.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Big wood, James

  Chapman, Edward

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Bill, Charles

  Charrington, Spencer

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Boland, John

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Bond, Edward

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Arrol, Sir William

  Brassey, Albert

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Bull, William James

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Butcher, John George

  Delany, William

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G' r' ld W (Leeds

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Denny, Colonel

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cavendish, R. E. (N. Lanes.)

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (D'rbyshire

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Bignold. Arthur

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Doogan, P. C.

  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid he suggested that it was not desirable to commence that night the discussion on the new Clause.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid this was an Amendment on the Clause and it ought to be disposed of that night. He seldom had the good fortune to speak without being replied to, and he freely admitted that it was highly improbable that they could begin the discussion on any subsequent Amendment.
  (11.43.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Aves, 96; Noes, 243. (Division List No. 260.)

  Dorington, Sir John Edward

  Leamy, Edmund

  Purvis, Robert

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Pym, C. Guy

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Randles, John S.

  Durning-Lawrence. Sir Edwin

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Raseh, Major Frederic Carne

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Loder. Gerald Walter Erskine

  Reddy, M.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lowe, Francis William

  Remnant. James Farquharson

  Fergusson. Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Ridley, Hon M W (Stalvbridge)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Finch, George H.

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lundon, W.

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Fison, Frederick William

  Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

  Round, James

  Fitzgerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Mac Donnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Rutherford, John

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Forster, Henrv William

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone. W.)

  Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

  Mac Veagh, Jeremiah

  Seely, Maj. J E B (Isle of Wight

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Gardner. Ernest

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinb'rgh W

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  M'Kean, John

  Skewes-Cox. Thomas

  Gordon. J. (Londonderry, S.)

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Manners. Lord Cecil

  Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.

  Goulding, Edward Alfied

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

  Spear, John Ward

  Green, Walford D (Wednesb'ry

  Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Milvain, Thomos

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Groves, James Grimble

  Montagu, G. (Huntington)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Hain, Edward

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  More, Robert Jasper (Shropsh're

  Talbot Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Middx

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nd'rry

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Mount, William Arthur

  Tuke, Sir John Batty

  Harris. Frederick Leverton

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Tully, Jasper

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Murphy, John

  Valentia, Viscount

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Murray. Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Henderson, Alexander

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, M.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hobhonse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Willoughby de Eresbv, Lord

  Hope. J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  O'Dowd, John

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Hoult, Joseph

  O'Malley, William

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Hutton, John (Yorks. N. R.)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Jebb, Sir Richard Claver house

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Johnstone, Hey wood (Sussex)

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingtn

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesl'y

  Wylie, Alexander

  Joyce, Michael

  Penn, John

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Percy, Earl

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Sir William Walrond and

  Lawson, John Grant

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Committee report progress; to sit again Tomorrow.

  BISHOPRIC OF SOUTHWARK BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 1:—
  Amendment proposed,—
  "In page 1, line 15, to leave out the word 'four,' and insert the word 'three.'—(Mr. Brand.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'four' stand part of the Clause."
  It being Midnight, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  The Committee report progress; to sit again Tomorrow.
  Adjourned at two minutes after Twelve o'clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  HULL, BARNSLEY, AND WEST RIDING JUNCTION RAILWAY AND DOCK (SOUTH YORKSHIRE EXTENTION LINES) BILL.
  Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee had not proceeded with the consideration of the Bill, the opposition thereto having been withdrawn; read and ordered to lie on the Table: The orders made on the 16th of May and Thursday last discharged, and Bill committed.

  CALEDONIAN RAILWAY BILL,
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL [H. L.],
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL [H. L.],
  GAS AND WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [H. L.],
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
  Report from the Select Committee, That the Committee adjourned this day at One o'clock; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

  NOTTINGHAM AND RETFORD RAILWAY BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments.
  HUDDERSFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments.
  TICEHURST WATER BILL.
  Read 3a, and passed.
  LEICESTERSHIRE AND WARWICKSHIRE ELECTRIC POWER BILL.
  Read 3a, with the Amendments; further Amendments made; Bill passed and returned to the Commons.
  METROPOLITAN RAILWAY BILL.
  Brought from the Commons: read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
  NEWCASTLE-UPON-TYNE CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.],
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments: The said Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL,
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 12) BILL,
    Moved, that the order made on the 14th day of March last, "That no Provisional Order Confirmation Bill brought from the House of Commons shall be read a second time after Thursday the 19th day of June next," be dispensed with, and that the Bills be now read 2a; agreed to; Bills read 2a accordingly.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7.) BILL,
  Committed: The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 12) BILL,
  Committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H.L.],
  Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL,
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL,
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL,
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL,
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 11) BILL,
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 14) BILL,
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 15) BILL,
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (GAS) BILL,
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (HOUSING OF WORKING CLASSES) BILL,
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (POOR LAW) BILL,
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bills reported without Amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bills to be read 3a on Thursday next.

  IRVINE CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a, to be printed, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899), deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee. (No. 133.)
RETURNS REPORTS ETC.
  DUBLIN METROPOLITAN POLICE.
  Statistical tables for the year 1901.
  IRISH SALMON FISHERIES.
  Return showing the relative value of private and public salmon fisheries in Ireland.

  GREENWICH OBSERVATORY.
  Report of the Astronomer-Royal to the Board of Visitors of the Royal Observatory, Greenwich; read at the annual visitation of the Royal Observatory, 7th June, 1902.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  JOURNAL COMMITTEE.
  Report from, that the one hundred and thirty-third volume of the Journals (1st Edw. VII, 1901), with an Index, was ready for delivery; read and ordered to lie on the Table; and the said volume ordered to be delivered in the same manner as the preceding volumes of the Journals have been delivered.
  WILD BIRDS PROTECTION ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to.
  PRISON OFFICERS (PENSIONS) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to order): Bills reported without Amendment; and re-committed to the Standing Committee.
  FRESHWATER FISH (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Reported from the Standing Committee without Amendment, and to be read 3a on Tuesday next.
  IMMORAL TRAFFIC (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Reported from the Standing Committee, without Amendment, and to be read 3a on Friday next.

  VOLUNTEER RIFLE RANGES.
  THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: My Lords I beg to ask the Under-Secretary of State for War, what proportion of the total amount allocated for the provision of Volunteer rifle ranges still remains in hand, what corps have been assisted, and to what amount.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY or STATE FOR WAR (LORD RAGLAN): My Lords, it will be within the recollection of the noble Earl that several sums, amounting in the aggregate to £170,000, have been set aside for the purpose of assisting Volunteers to form ranges. Of that sum £90,000 was set on one side for the provision of a range for the metropolitan district. That left £80,000 for the provincial corps. Of the latter sum, £52,389 has been expended in assisting 181 different corps. The work which is now being carried on will require a further sum of £12,572. That will leave at the present time an unexpended sum of £15,039. As soon as the exact amount has been determined, the general officers commanding districts will be asked to state their requirements, and the expenditure of this sum will be alloted in the same way.
  THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH: Will any Papers be issued, as in 1899?
  LORD RAGLAN: Yes.
  LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I should like to ask whether any progress is being made with the arrangements for providing a metropolitan range. The noble Lord said that £90,000 had been set aside for that purpose, and it would be interesting to learn whether any steps are being taken to supply the much-felt want of a rifle range somewhere near to London.
  LORD RAGLAN: That matter is at the present moment being considered.
  EARL SPENCER: Is it being carried out?
  LORD RAGLAN: Yes, it is being carried out.

  JOINT COMMITTEE ON WAR FUNDS.
  THE EARL OF DARTMOUTH, who had the following notice on the Paper, "To ask the Chancellor of Duchy of Lancaster what steps have been taken to give effect to the Report of last year's Joint Committee on War Funds, over which he presided," said: I do not see the noble Lord the Chancellor of the Duchy present, and I do not know whether the Under-Secretary for War is prepared to give me an answer. The Committee which sat last year dealing with the subject of War Funds attracted the greatest possible attention and they came to a decision on the matter. I do not know whether any Member of the Government is able to say what steps have been taken to give effect to the Report.
  No reply was given.
  EARL SPENCER: I do not know whether any noble Lord on the Front Bench opposite is going to rise, but I do think that His Majesty's Government, who had notice of this question, should be able to give the noble Earl an answer. This is a matter of great importance, and unless we have some satisfactory assurance on the matter I shall be inclined later on to bring the matter before your Lordships' House, as it is of very great importance that due consideration should be given to the duties and responsibilities which war unfortunately brings to all classes of His Majesty's subjects.
  House adjourned at ten minutes before five o'clock, to Thursday next, half past ten o'clock.