Sitting of 5 August 1902

Preamble
The House met at Two of the Clock.
The CLERK at the TABLE informed the House of the unavoidable absence of the Chairman of Ways and Means.
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  BIRMINGHAM AND MIDLAND TRAMWAYS BILL [LORDS].
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  DEVONPORT CORPORATION (GENERAL POWERS) BILL [LORDS] (PRINCE OF WALES'S CONSENT SIGNIFIED).
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  SOUTH EASTERN AND LONDON, CHATHAM, AND DOVER RAILWAYS BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER).
  Consideration of Lords Amendments to Commons Amendments postponed by the Chairman of Ways and Means under Order [1st May] till Thursday, 16th October, at the evening sitting.
  RICHMOND HILL (PRESERVATION OF VIEW) BILL [By ORDER].
  Consideration of Lords Amendments postponed by the Chairman of Ways and Means under Order [1st May] till Thursday, 16th October, at the evening sitting.

  EDGWARE AND HAMPSTEAD RAILWAY BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER).
  Third Reading postponed by the Chairman of Ways and Means under Order [1st May] till Thursday, 16th October, at the evening sitting.
  BAKER STREET AND WATERLOO RAILWAY BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER),
  CHARING CROSS, EUSTON, AND HAMPSTEAD RAILWAY (CONSOLIDATED) BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER),

  NORTH-WEST LONDON RAILWAY BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER).
  Consideration, as amended, postponed by the Chairman of Ways and Means under Order [1st May] till Thursday, 16th October, at the evening sitting.

  GREAT NORTHERN AND CITY RAILWAY BILL [LORDS] (BY ORDER).
  Ordered, That Standing Order No. 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(Mr. Caldwell)
  Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  GREENOCK AND PORT GLASGOW TRAMWAYS (EXTENSION) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [LORDS].
  Considered, read the third time, and passed.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to—
  Fleetwood Urban District Council Bill, with an Amendment.
  London United Tramways Bill, with Amendments.

PETITIONS.
  BEN NEVIS OBSERVATORY.
  Petition from Fort William, against discontinuance of grant in aid to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against: From Ripley and Pudsey; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Birmingham, against alteration of Clause 8; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petition from Enfield, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.
  Copy presented, of Returns of Accidents and Casualties as reported to the Board of Trade by the several Railway Companies in the United Kingdom during the three months ending 31st March, 1902, together with Reports of the Inspecting Officers, Assistant Inspecting Officers, and Sub-Inspectors of the Railway Department to the Board of Trade upon certain accidents which were inquired into [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1894 (VESSELS DETAINED).
  Copy presented, of Return of all ships ordered by the Board of Trade, or its officers, during the period from the 1st July, 1901, to the 30th June, 1902, to be provisionally detained as unsafe, together with Summaries, etc. (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper [C. 734]) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (RAILWAYS).
  Copy presented, of Administration Report on the Railways in India for the year 1901, by A. Brereton, Esq., Secretary to the Government of India, Public Works Department, Railways [by Command; to lie upon the Table.
  POOR RELIEF (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 17th June; Mr. Grant Lawson]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 326.]
  SECONDARY EDUCATION (SCOTLAND)
  Copy presented, of Report for the year 1902 by Sir Henry Craik, K.C.B. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  PAROCHIAL MEDICAL OFFICERS DISMISSED IN HIGHLAND CROFTING COUNTIES.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 23rd June; Mr. Weir]; to lie upon the Table.
  CIVIL SERVANTS (RETIREMENT AT THE AGE OF SIXTY-FIVE).
  Copy ordered, "of Treasury Minute, dated the 26th day of July, 1902, stating the circumstances under which certain Civil Servants have been retained in the Service after they have attained the age of sixty-five, and of the Return therein referred to."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
  TECHNICAL COMMITTEES (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Return ordered, "showing the number and composition of the Technical Committees in counties and county boroughs in England and Wales established under the Technical Instruction Acts, and the populations for which they act."—(Mr. Walter Palmer.)
  MERCHANT SHIPPING, 1901.
  Copy ordered, "of Tables showing the progress of Merchant Shipping in the United Kingdom and the principal maritime countries."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
  COAL TABLES, 1901.
  Copy ordered, "of Statistical Tables relating to the production, consumption, and imports and exports of coal in the: British Empire and the principal foreign countries in each year from 1883 to 1901, as far as the particulars can be stated; together with statements showing the production of lignite and petroleum in the principal producing countries for a series of years (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper No. 213 of Session 1901)."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour).
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  India—Weaving Industries.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India, in view of the recommendations in the Report of the Famine Commission relative to the condition of hand-loom weavers in various parts of India, will the Government consider the expediency of adopting such measures as will admit of hand-loom weavers being provided with shuttle-looms in place of the hand-loom.
  (Answered by Secretary Lard George Hamilton.) I understand that the matter is already receiving attention in India, and that efforts are being made by the local governments in connection with technical instruction to improve the indigenous loom of the country and thereby increase it efficiency.

  Madras Land Revenues—Default Sales.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that for the ten years 1890–91 to 1899–1900 inclusive, there were sold by auction by the Indian Government in the Madras Presidency, in default of payment of land revenue, 343,096 acres of land held by 124,078 defaulters; and, seeing that out of 343,096 acres of land thus put up for auction only 193,725 acres were sold, will he say how the remaining 149,371 acres, which were bought in by the Government for want of bidders, have been dealt with.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George, Hamilton). The hon. Member is referred to my answer to a similar Question

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  asked by him on the 4th instant, † I there explained that the Government disposes of the lands to cultivators as opportunities arise.

  Indian Income Tax Act.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether his attention has been called to the fact that income tax is now levied in India on incomes of 500 rupees (£33 6s. 8d.) and upwards; and will he consider the expediency of extending the exemption.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton). I am aware of the fact which the hon. Member mentions. There is no intention at present of modifying the Indian Income Tax Act.

  Naval Expenditure at Dover and Gibraltar.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty, with regard to the Return of Naval Works, whether the apparent lessening of expenditure during the current financial year, as compared with the last financial year, and the estimated average for each year, in the case of Dover involves retardation in that case; and similarly with regard to Gibraltar Dockyard Extension.
  (Answered by Mr. Pretyman.) There will be no retardation of the works at Dover and Gibraltar Dockyard Extension during the present year. The figures in Column 5 of the Return do not show the estimated expenditure for the current financial year, but the amount remaining available for that year out of the provision made for the two years expenditure in the Naval Works Act, 1901. In the case of both Dover and Gibraltar Dockyard Extension the rate of progress has exceeded anticipations, and it is estimated that fully as much, or more, will be spent during 1902–3 than in 1901–2. The excesses on the amount available for these items will be met out of the amounts provided for other items upon which the rate of progress has been less than was expected.
  † See page 493.

  Navy—Jam Contracts.
  COLONEL LONG: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he can state what weights of the various descriptions of jam were bought for the Navy in the years 1900 and 1901 respectively.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) No jam was bought for the Navy during the years mentioned, as jam is not at present included in the scale of rations for the Navy. It is, however, to be included in the revised scale which is to come into force in the course of next year.

  Navy—Engineer Officers
  LORD CHARLES BERESFORD: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, as questions connected with the Engineer Officers of the Royal Navy have been and are engaging the attention of the Admiralty, he can now give the House any information as to the steps the Admiralty intend to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster) I am afraid I am not at present able to give the noble Lord any further information with regard to this question, but I can assure him that it is receiving the careful consideration of the Board of Admiralty.

  Bridlington Coastguard Station.
  MR. LUKE WHITE: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty, in view of the fact that a man was drowned at Bridlington within a few yards of the coastguard station, on the afternoon of the 21st July, and that at that time the station was locked up, whether he will give directions that the coastguard station at Bridlington be kept open in future.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) The coastguard station in question is kept open all day as far as is practicable, but it is occasionally necessary for the coastguard man on watch to be absent for short periods on other duties, such as that of boarding vessels that arrive in the harbour. This was the case on the occasion of the accident referred to. I ought to add that the immediate cause

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  of the fatality seems to have been the absence of any life-buoys along the seawall, and I am informed that since the accident occurred the local authorities have supplied this omission.

  Ordnance Survey—Pay of Labourers.
  MR. TANKERVILLE CHAMBER-LAYNE: To ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he can say why the labourers in the Ordnance Survey Office are not paid the same wages as those in a similar position who are employed by the Board of Works and the Board of Education; whether he is aware that recently men have been taken on as unskilled labourers, and after a few weeks service have been promoted to a better class with higher pay over the heads of men who have been working in the Ordnance Survey from ten to twenty years; and whether he will arrange that the minimum rate of wages now granted to these labourers, viz., 18s., be increased to 21s., the minimum in all other Government Departments.
  (Answered by Mr. Hanbury.) I know of no labourers under the Board of Works or the Board of Education at Southampton whose position compares with those on the Ordnance Survey, but inquiries are being made on the subject. The particular cases to which my hon. friend directs attention cannot be identified with certainty, but men of superior attainments sometimes join as labourers in the hope of promotion, and it is probable that this is the explanation of the circumstances referred to in the Question. Promotion from one grade to the other is given, not for length of service, but for ability to discharge superior duties, and the most competent men are selected. The pay of the labourers at Southampton has considerably increased of late, and it is doubtful whether any further increase could be justified, but I shall be happy to further investigate the matter in detail.

  Muzzling Order of 1st July, 1902.
  MR. LLOYD MORGAN: To ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether he will state under what authority is the Rabies Order of 1st July, 1902, issued, which prescribes the muzzling, inclosing, or
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  chaining of healthy dogs on their owners' premises between sunset and sunrise; and whether it is proposed to enforce this order by domiciliary visits of the police.
  (Answered by Mr. Hanbury.) The order is made under the authority of Section 22 of the Diseases of Animals Act, 1894. The enforcement of the order rests with the local authority.

  Newcastle-on-Tyne Telegraphists
  MR. PLUMMER: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he will state when the Newcastle-on-Tyne telegraphists (of whom thirty-eight, with an average service of twenty-seven years, are still waiting promotion) may expect a reply to their petition having reference to their maximum wage and the need for an increase of higher appointments at Newcastle, which was forwarded to the Postmaster General in August last.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen chamberlain.) The memorial in question has been of necessity held over for consideration in connection with a revision of staff at the Newcastle - on - Tyne post office. That revision is now almost completed, and the Postmaster General hopes to be able to answer the memorialists in a short time.

  Falmore (Donegal) Boatslip.
  MR. HUGH LAW: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the whole of the amount voted by the Congested Districts Board for the construction of a boatslip at Falmore, County Donegal, has been expended thereupon; and whether the work has been completed.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The amount authorised by the Board on this work was £170, of which £168 14s. 8d. has been expended. The work was undertaken on condition that the fishermen would themselves excavate in the earth a place to which their boats could be hauled for safety. This they have failed to do, and the Board has declined to make any further expenditure.

  Irish Board of Education—Intermediate Science Syllabus.
  MR. MACARTNEY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state by whom the Intermediate Science Syllabus was drawn up; whether the Professors of Chemistry and Physics of the Royal College of Science were consulted; and, if not, whether he can state the reasons why they were not referred to.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) I replied fully, on the 28th July, to a similar Question addressed to me by the hon. and learned Member for South Donegal. †

  Naas Barracks Water Supply.
  MR. LEAMY: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether any arrangement has yet been come to between the military authorities and the Naas Urban District Council for the supply of water by the Council to the military barracks at Naas.
  Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The terms proposed by the Naas Urban District Council for the water supply in question are considered satisfactory, but as there are no funds available for the necessary works in connection with the service during the present financial year, it is not possible to proceed further at present.

  South Africa—Court Martial on Solomon Vonaas
  MR. CHANNING: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether a Boer officer, named Solomon Van Os, was shot by order of a court martial at Heidelberg, South Africa, on 23rd June; and, if so, will he state the charge and the nature of the evidence against him, and by whom he was tried.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The person alluded to is evidently Solomon Vonaas, who was convicted of the murder of Captain Myers, South African Constabulary, on September 25th, by a military court held at Heidelberg on the 19th June, and was sentenced to death. Captain Myers went
  † See preceding Volume, p. 1348.
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  out alone to meet a party of three Boers, who had approached the blockhouse line under a white flag, and asked to see an officer. While talking to them, Captain Myers was shot and stripped in broad daylight, and in full view of the blockhouses. The identity of the men was established, and Vonaas confessed that he was the man who actually shot Captain Myers.

  Medical Examination of Army Candidates—Case of Mr. Fleming, Glasgow.
  SIR J. STIRLING-MAXWELL: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Mr. H. H. Fleming, of Glasgow, a University candidate for the Army, having been pronounced physically fit for a Commission by a Medical Board in Edinburgh in July, 1900, was in October, 1901, rejected by the Medical Board who made the final examination for a congenital defect which was discovered and passed by the first Board; and whether, in view of the fact that the inconsistency of the two Boards cost Mr. Fleming eighteen months of time and £200 of money, the Secretary of State will undertake that candidates will be rejected in future for congenital defects at the preliminary examination if they are to be rejected, at all.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) I am aware of this case. This gentleman was held to be unfit for the service owing to weakness and deficiency of the abdominal walls. There was no inconsistency between the Reports of the two Boards, as the candidate's health had become worse in the interval.

  Courts Martial Commission.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state by whom, and under what authority, the Commissioners have been appointed to go to Cape Colony to inquire into the sentences passed under martial law; and whether there is any and, if so, what precedent for the appointment; and whether he will state the terms of the reference, or lay the same on the Table.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) (1) The Commissioners are being

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  authorised to proceed to South Africa in terms of a Royal Commission. As the House of Commons was informed by the Secretary of State for the Colonies on the 29th July, the Commission was appointed by His Majesty's Government with the concurrence of the Cape Government, and of the Prime Minister of Natal; (2) I am not aware that there is any exact precedent; (3) The terms of references were substantially given in the notice which appeared in The Times of 24th July.

  Reinstatement of Boer Prisoners.
  MR. CHANNING: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to reinstate in their farms those Boers whose farms were, previous to the signing of the terms of surrender, sold to make good charges for the maintenance of their families in the camps.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) I have nothing to add to the answers given to Questions asked by the hon. Member on this subject on 31st July and 1st August. †

  South African Constabulary Appointments.
  SIR JOSEPH DIMSDALE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether appointments to the South African Constabulary are being offered in the first place to men who have served in the late war; and, if so, might full publicity be given to same, and a Return giving the result of the past four weeks recruiting, particularising the number of men appointed who have served in the late war; and will he say whether a full recruiting staff is maintained in London, and, if so, will he state its annual cost.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) Other things being equal, preference is given to applicants who have served during the war, but it is not practicable or desirable to confine recruiting in this country to such men only. Recruiting takes place in South Africa also, where men who have served in the war have an opportunity of joining the Constabulary. Of 3,225 applications received during the past four weeks 204
  † See pages 276 and 397.
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  have been accepted. I am unable to state how many of the accepted candidates have served during the war, as their papers have been forwarded to South Africa. The estimated annual cost of the London recruiting office is £4,045. I may say that the staff are employed on other duties in connection with the Constabulary besides recruiting.

(2.15.) QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  Army Officers Establishment.
  COLONEL LONG: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War what is the proportion of appointments given to officers of the rank of colonel to the numbers of officers of the rank of regimental lieutenant-colonel in the Royal Engineers, the Royal Artillery, and the Infantry respectively.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Lord STANLEY,): I am afraid that I cannot give my hon. and gallant friend any reply to his Question, as any figures I could supply would be misleading. The Army Corps system is not yet in full operation, and the present proportions are in process of change. Further, it must be remembered that certain appointments to substantive colonelcies are open to Cavalry as well as Infantry officers.

  Field Batteries of Volunteer Artillery.
  MR. PLUMMER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, in view of the services rendered in the South African War by field batteries of Volunteer Artillery, he will state what is the intention of the Government with reference to Army Order 120 of 1st May last, and whether such Order is to be regarded as indicating an intention in the future to abolish such batteries.
  LORD STANLEY: As I stated on the 24th ultimo, the whole question is under consideration.

  Case of Private Durkan, Sixth Battalion, Rifle Brigade.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for

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  War will he explain why the pay of Private Bernard Durkan, of the 6th Battalion, Rifle Brigade, was refused, although he had served his training period at the Curragh; and will he direct that this man's arrears of pay be remitted to him.
  LORD STANLEY: Will the hon. Member kindly address any communication he may like to make on this matter to the general officer commanding the district.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: Can the noble Lord give me a guarantee that the general officer commanding the district will pay any attention to my request?
  LORD STANLEY: I am certain that he will.

  Chinese Tariff Negotiations.
  MR. NORMAN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he will state for what reason the confidential correspondence respecting the tariff negotiations in China is withheld from Parliament after it has been communicated to private individuals; and when he proposes to present it to Parliament.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE,): The Chambers of Commerce and other bodies interested in the China trade have been confidentially consulted by the Secretary of State with regard to certain articles of the draft Treaty. I hope the hon. Member will agree with me in thinking that, while such consultation was indispensable, it would, on the other hand, be premature to publish the correspondence whilst negotiations are still in progress.
  MR. NORMAN: Can the noble Lord say on what principle the selection of bodies interested was made?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That does not arise out of the Question on the Paper.

  Trumpeter to the Scottish Court of Justiciary.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he
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  will state on what date it is proposed to abolish the office of Trumpeter to the Court of Justiciary, for which a salary of £80 per annum is provided in the Estimates.
  *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire): There is no such person as Trumpeter to the Court of Justiciary. The hon. Member probably refers to an allowance of £80 which is made to one of the Trumpeters of His Majesty's Household for attendance on the Court of Justiciary, This is all. The new appointments have been altered, and a small daily fee is now paid. The allowance in question is paid to the sole remaining old trumpeter who was engaged on the former condition, and even if it were legal I should not think of depriving him of his allowance in his old age.
  MR. WEIR: I am anxious to save £80 a year, and I want to know when the saving will begin.
  *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The new arrangement of paying a daily fee is already in force.

  Parochial Medical Officers in the Highlands.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will state the cause of the delay in issuing the Return relative to Parochial medical officers in the Highland crofting counties which was granted in May last; and can he say when the Return will be in the hands of Members.
  *MR. A GRAHAM MURRAY: The Return has been completed, and will be laid before the House today.

  Kew Gardens—Smoke Nuisance
  SIR CHARLES M'LAREN: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he can now state what proceedings have been taken to abate the smoke nuisance at Brentford with a view to protect Kew Gardens.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS,): This has been engaging

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  the most careful attention of the legal advisers of my Department. The position of matters has been explained to me, and I shall be happy to explain it in turn to the hon. Baronet privately; but it would be inconvenient to make a public statement.

  Irish MSS. Abroad.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is now in a position to give the names of the libraries on the Continent and elsewhere in which important Irish MSS. are to be found.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): The library at Copenhagen, the Burgundian Library at Brussels, and the library of the late Sir Thomas Phillips at Cheltenham.

  National Library, Dublin.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether any, and, if so, what steps have been taken to increase the staff at the National Library, Dublin.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Departmental Committee appointed to consider the question of the sufficiency of the start has not yet made its final Report. For the present, however, two additional attendants have been appointed to the staff.

  Half-Acre Scheme in County Cork.
  MR. SHEEHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the reasons why the additional halt-acre scheme has not been proceeded with by the Cork Rural District Council, and the matters in connection with this scheme which require adjustment.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Local Government Board is unable to explain the omission of the District Council to take action. The Council is aware that the Provisional Order cannot issue until the Board has been supplied with the requisite maps and consents of the parties interested, and until arrangements have been made to deal satisfactorily with a number of instances of irregular tenancies of existing cottages.

  Marshall's Estate, Doon, County Limerick.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that an application has been made to the Land Commission by the agent or receiver to the estate of Marshall. Toomaline, Doon, County Limerick, that in consequence of the estate being solvent it should be declared outside the scope of the 40th Section of the Land Act of 1896; is he aware that Mr. Marshall was declared a bankrupt, and that the trustees claim to be landlords as well as trustees; will he state on what grounds the receiver on the estate claims to have become agent, and whether any authority in bankruptcy has transferred the interest of Mr. Marshall to the trustees; and will he see that the tenants' interests shall be protected, and that the tenants shall be given facilities for purchasing their holdings.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have no knowledge whether the facts are as stated in the Question. I am informed, however, that on Thursday last the land judge made an order declaring that the estate referred to did not come within the provisions of the 40th Section of the Act of 1896. The tenants were represented on the occasion by counsel.

  Cusack Estate, Longford.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been drawn to the management of the Cusack, County Longford, Estate, and the treatment of the tenants thereon; and, will he direct the attention of the Land Commission to this estate with a view to the putting in operation of the 40th section of the Act of 1896, so that the usual request for sale shall be issued immediately.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Mr. Justice Ross recently animadverted on the treatment of the tenants on this estate by its former owner. The property is now administered in the court of the land judge and was placed in charge of a receiver in April last. It rests with the land judge, not the Land Commission, to take the initiative in obtaining a request under the 40th Section. I am

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  informed that the proceedings in the land judge's court have not yet reached the stage at which it would be possible to determine whether the provisions of that section are applicable to the estate in question.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: Can the right hon. Gentleman take any action to expedite the proceedings in the Land Judge's Court?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I do not think it is within my province to interfere.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  MR. DALZIEL: Is it the intention of the Prime Minister to adhere to the programme of business as sketched in the morning papers?
  MR. BRYCE: Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that. I wish to ask what he intends to do with the Licensing Bill and the Patents Bill. After what hour will he promise not to take them?
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): As regards the Licensing Bill, I understand the Lords have made very small modifications upon the measure, modifications which are not really of a contentious character, and I can give no pledge that it will not be taken at a late hour. The Patent Law Amendment Bill will not be taken late. If the seventh Clause of the Education Bill is not finished to-morrow (Wednesday) it will have to be taken on Thursday at the morning sitting, instead of the Motion for adjournment.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Then what about the business after the Motion for adjournment. I know that the right hon. Gentleman is in a difficulty in settling a definite programme, but it would be a convenience to Members to know what the programme is, and especially what is to be done with the three Irish Bills. What steps does the right hon. Gentleman propose to take to fulfil his pledges as to these Bills?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think that in the stress of public business, owing to the
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  prolonged discussion of matters that usually pass without debate, the hon. Member's view was that these Bills can hardly come on until the Autumn session.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: My view?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have been erroneously informed, perhaps. My idea is to take the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill tomorrow as the first Order, and I shall propose to take the Third Reading of the Appropriation Bill and the Motion for adjournment for the holidays on Friday. If we do not—as I do not wish to contemplate—finish the seventh Clause of the Education Bill tomorrow or Thursday, then, of course, the holidays will have to be postponed.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Then may I take it for granted that the Prime Minister proposes to postpone the further stages of the three Irish Bills until the autumn session?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Unless we are more fortunate in getting through our business, then I am afraid we must reconcile ourselves to that unhappy result.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: There is one other question to which I wish to call the attention of the Prime Minister. It will be in the recollection of the right hon. Gentleman that I asked him for an opportunity of debating the Report of the Select Committee which inquired into the imprisonment of the hon. Member for Sligo for contempt of court. The right hon. Gentleman promised to look into the matter, and I now ask whether, in accordance with precedent, the Government will afford opportunities for a discussion of the Report.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have looked into the precedents—I will not say I have given them detailed study—but as I read them they do not absolutely bear on this case. In the Wellesley case there was no question, of a day being asked for; in Mr. Dwyer Grey's case a day was asked for and refused by Mr. Gladstone; while Mr. Sheehy's case is not a case in point. In that case the hon. Member was served with a summons in the precincts of the House, a great deal of feeling was excited, and a day was given for the discussion.

  677
  At any rate, I cannot promise a day for the consideration of this case before the adjournment. Whether it is possible or desirable to give a day later, remains a matter for consideration. If a day is given, I think it should be for the purpose of arriving at a distinct conclusion that in future, questions of criminal contempt of Court ought not to be dealt with by Committees of the House where they stand absolutely on all fours with other indictable offences.
  MR. BRYCE: As to the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman to take both the Motion for the adjournment and the Third Reading of the Appropriation Bill on Friday, we on this side must not be understood as assenting to the arrangement. There may be a great many questions insufficiently discussed, especially as the right hon. Gentleman does not propose to give us a full day to-
  morrow for the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS (VENTILATION).
  First Report from the Select Committee brought up, and read.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 327.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY).
  (2.30.) Motion made, and Question put, "That on this day, notwithstanding anything in the Sessional Order (Business in Supply) of the 28th of April, business other than business of Supply may be taken before midnight, and proceedings on Report of Supply may be taken after midnight."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  The House divided:—Ayes, 124; Noes, 69. (Division List No. 368.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S. W

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Arrol, Sir William

  Gardner, Ernest

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Purvis, Robert

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Randles, John S.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Rattigan, Sir William Henry

  Balfour, Rt. Hon A.J (Manch'r

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Balfour, Rt. HnGerald W(Leeds

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Beach, Rt. Hn Sir Michael Hicks

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Bull, William James

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Campbell, Rt. Hn J. A. (Glasgow

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Higginbottom, S.W.

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hope, J.F.(Sheffield, Brightside

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Hoult, Joseph

  Spear, John Ward

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Stroyan, John

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Cranborne, Lord

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Webb, Col. William George

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E (Taunt'n

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Long, Col. Chas. W.(Evesham)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Williams, Rt Hn J Powell (Birm.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks)

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R.(Bath)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Fergusson, Rt Hon Sir J(Manc'r

  Milvain, Thomas

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Finch, George H.

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Morton, Arthur H.A. (Deptford)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute

  Fison, Frederick William

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Sir William Walrond and

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Flower, Ernest

  Penn, John

  NOES.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Bell, Richard

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Dowd, John

  Brigg, John

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Caldwell, James

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Roche, John

  Cameron, Robert

  Leamy, Edmund

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Levy, Maurice

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Carew, James Laurence

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lundon, W.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Channing, Francis Allston

  M'Govern, T.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Crean, Eugene

  M'Killop W. (Sligo, North)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Cullinan, J.

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Delany, William

  Mooney, John J.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Murnaghan, George

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Murphy, John

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Duffy, William J.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Norman, Henry

  Farrell, James Patrick

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Mr. Lough and Mr.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Dalziel.

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  SUPPLY.—19TH JUNE.—REPORT.
  Resolution reported:—
  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1902–3.

    CLASS II.
    "That a sum, not exceeding £9,819, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the salaries and expenses of the office of His Majesty's Secretary for Scotland and subordinate office, expenses under the Inebriates Acts, 1879 to 1900, and expenses under the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899, including a grant in aid of the Congested Districts (Scotland) Fund."
    Resolution read a second time.
    MR. WEIRprotested against the attitude taken by the Secretary for Scotland in reference to the distress in the congested areas of the Highlands. The right hon. Gentleman would not take the trouble to inquire personally, but he accepted information from the landlords, who were the prime offenders. Though Parliament had provided the power and means to assist, nothing was being done to alleviate distress, which was especially acute
    680
    in the Island of Lewis. There were 30,000 in that Island most of whom lived under deplorable conditions. They would probably be told that much had been done in other parts of the country, but the secret of that was that in these places the people, by defying the law, had forced the authorities to take action. All that had been done in the Island of Lewis was to secure a few acres for fishermen's dwellings. He would like the Lord Advocate himself to visit the place, and he would see that it was one of the worst off in the United Kingdom. Further, he had to complain that nothing had been done to remove the silt in Ness Harbour, and as a protest against the inaction of the Secretary for Scotland, in this and other matters connected with the congested areas, he moved the reduction of the Vote by £100.
    Amendment proposed—
    "To leave out '£9,819,' and insert '£9,719.'"—(Mr. Weir.)
    Question proposed, "That '£9,819' stand part of the said Resolution."
    MR. DALZIELsaid he desired to call attention to the case of David Thomas, who was extradited from America on a charge of embezzling £1,500 belonging to a Cupar building society, and in respect of whose extradition the local magistrates had been

    681
    mulcted in a portion of the costs. The local magistrates entered into the bond antecedent to the extradition proceedings being instituted in the belief, based on a statement of the Fiscal of the county, that it would not be enforced; but, on the conviction of the accused, they were charged with a part of the expenses of bringing him from America. What would have been their position had they refused to sign the bond? It was a case in which many local people were interested, and it would have been said that they were failing to assist in the proper administration of justice. In fact, they had no alternative but to sign the bond. As it was a Crown prosecution, it was felt that the local magistrates ought not to bear any part of the expense connected with the proper administration of justice, and the Lord Advocate would give general satisfaction in the locality if he could see his way to remit the charge.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire), in reply to the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty, said he had really nothing to add to the statements he had made in Committee of Supply. His difficulty was that he was met with what he would call the vague declamation of the hon. Member against what he had characterised as the lethargy and want of movement on the part of the Secretary for Scotland. Nothing that he could say would probably have any effect on the hon. Member, and he could only comfort himself with the reflection that his general declamation was not confined to the Scotch Office. As he sat in the House, he had the opportunity of hearing the hon. Member urge very much the same class of complaint against the War Office, and even against the Foreign Office, now that he had extended his operations and had surveyed the world as far as India and Japan. The policy of his noble friend was put perfectly clearly in the report of the Congested Districts Board, which was adequately discussed when the Vote was before the Committee. That policy was to help those who helped themselves. The removal of the silt was still under consideration. Although the number of persons who offered to do the work was
    682
    large, the amount of sand that could be moved in a day was limited, and it became obvious that the offer was not one that could be accepted, because it was no use attempting to cope with the silt unless it could be dealt with once and for all. The question was really an engineering one, as to which the Congested Districts Board must obviously be guided by professional advice. They were taking advice and considering the question, and it was not on account of any dilatoriness on their part that this delay had occurred. The same might be said about roads. The hon. Member opposite had said that the people in the district ought to know where roads were wanted, but anybody who had any experience of what the local recommendations came to knew that it was very unsafe to take the local view as against the expert view as to the line a road should take. This, again, was a question for an expert, by whose advice the Department should be guided. With reference to the case mentioned by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy, that required some explanation. In the first place, he could not accept the hon. Member's view that the borough authorities did not expect that the bond would be enforced, for this reason—that if the Fiscal made such a statement, he had no right under the rules, which were very clearly laid down with regard to these matters, to give any such assurance. It had come to be believed that for the prevention of crime Scotland depended on the Government; as a fact, this was not so. It was the business of each locality to prevent crime in its own area, and any step taken by the Government was taken by means of a subvention. If that were not so, there would not be equality of treatment between the two kingdoms. It was the custom in England not to go into the question of extradition in regard to such crimes as forgery or embezzlement unless a bond for the expenses of getting back the alleged criminal was granted by the person who was prosecuting. In the same way in Scotland it had never been the habit for the Grown Office to ask for extradition unless they got a bond or guarantee from any one who wished a person put upon his trial. He supposed

    683
    in the present case that feeling was so strong in the locality that the local authority came forward in the interests of the community, and gave the bond. It would have been against all ordinary
    precedent if the bond had not been, exacted.
    (3.13.) Question put.
    House divided:—Ayes, 119; Noes, 82. (Division List No. 369.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F.

    Finch, George H.

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry. E.

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col Edward

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Fison, Frederick William

    Purvis, Robert

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Flannery, Sir Fostescue

    Randles, John S.

    Arrol, Sir William

    Flower, Ernest

    Rattigan, Sir William Henry

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Gardner, Ernest

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H (City of Lond.

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Balfonr, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks

    (Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney),

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

    Rutherford, John

    Bond, Edward

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Hamilton Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Bull, William James

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Campbell, Rt Hn. JA. (Glasgow

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hoult, Joseph

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Cavendish, V.C. W. (Derbysh.

    Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham)

    Smith, Abel H. (Hereford, East

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Spear, John Ward

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Legge, Co). Hon. Heneage

    Stroyan, John

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Llewellyn, Evan Henry

    Valentia, Viscount

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Long, Rt, Hon. W. (Bristol, S.)

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James(Kent)

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Malcolm, Ian

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

    Milvain, Thomas

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Morton, Arthur A. H.(Deptford

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.)

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Mount, William Arthur

    Wylie, Alexander

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    TELLERS FOR THE AYESmdash;

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Sir William Walrond and

    Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Mane'r

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Doogan, P. C.

    Lloyd-George, David

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Duffy, William J.

    Lough, Thomas

    Bell, Richard

    Edwards, Frank

    Lundon, W.

    Brigg, John

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Farrell, James Patrick

    M'Govern, T.

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Calowell, James

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Mooney, John J.

    Cameron, Robert

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Murnaghan, George

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Gilhooly, James

    Murphy, John

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Grant, Corrie

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Harrington, Timothy

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Chamung, Francis Allston

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Norman, Henry

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

    O'Brien Kendal(Tipperary Mid

    Crean, Engene

    Horniman, Frederick John

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Cullinan, J.

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    Delany, William

    Leamy, Kdmund

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Dillon, John

    Levy, Maurice

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Sullivan, Donal

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

    Priestley, Arthur

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Roche, John

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Mr. Weir and Mr. Dalziel.

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

    Question put, and agreed to.

  SUPPLY— [26th JUNE]—REPORT.
  Resolution reported:—
  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1902–3.

    CLASS IV.
    "That a sum, not exceeding £400, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for a Grant to the Board of Trustees for Manufactures in Scotland in aid of the maintenance of the National Gallery, School of Art, and Museum of Antiquities, Scotland, etc."
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSONasked whether any definite step had been taken with regard to the appointment of a Court of Inquiry, for the purpose of inquiring into the allowances made to the Board of Manufactures with a view to exercising a more efficient control in regard to the National Gallery in Scotland. He understood that an arrangement took place the other day in regard to this matter.
    *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid every step had been taken that could be taken with regard to this Court of Inquiry up to the present time. The right hon. Gentleman opposite had been asked to furnish names, which had not yet been done, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer hoped to be in a position shortly to announce the names of the Departmental Committee which was to inquire into the question of the control of the National Gallery in Scotland.
    MR. BRYCEexpressed his satisfaction at the statement of the right hon. Gentleman. This matter excited a great deal of feeling in Scotland, and he hoped
    686
    that as soon after the Recess as possible, the Committee would get to work, and report to the House the result of their labours at the earliest possible moment.
    *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid it was intended that the sittings of the Committee should take place during the Recess; therefore, he hoped to have their Report when the House re-assembled.

  SUPPLY— [15TH JULY, EVENING SITTING]—REPORT.
  Resolution reported:—
  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1902–3.

    CLASS IV.
    "That a sum, not exceeding £707,712 be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for public education in Scotland, and for science and art in Scotland, including a grant in aid.
    MR. CALDWELLpointed out that whilst under the English Education Act of 1870, schools in England were limited to elementary instruction, under the Scottish Act of 1872, schools in Scotland combined elementary and secondary instruction. Under the old parochial system, which existed until the Act of 1872, Scotland stood at the head of almost every country in the world as regarded educational establishment, but she was not at the head now; she was not so far advanced considering the advantages she possessed over other countries in 1872. The advantage they possessed prior to 1872 was that the education given under the old parochial system was a sufficient preparation for the University. It was the teachers who gave the impetus to the boy to go to the University, and every teacher was qualified to

    687
    prepare a boy to go there. The schools of Scotland were of a higher character, and had a better class of teachers than the English schools, higher paid and better qualified. For that reason education was more expensive in Scotland, but the benefits of this, he contended, were felt throughout the Empire. It should be remembered that while the ratepayers of Scotland were at all this expense, the benefit was of an Imperial character. The Prime Minister, Lord Rosebery, and the Leader of the Opposition were all Scotsmen, and men of the same nationality would be found in every part of the Empire. This was a point which should be borne in mind when any additional grant was given to Scotland out of the Imperial purse. That certain sacrifices were made by the people themselves was shown by the fact that the compulsory school age in Scotland was fourteen years, as against thirteen in England.
    Then with regard to the changes which had been made in the mode of examination since 1872. The principle of the Act of 1872 was that every child should be educated to the extent of its abilities, and grants were given according to the individual results. That was an important method, because by it the children of the poorest parents were given as much attention as others. But pressure was brought to bear with a view to having a general examination of the schools. That was an unfortunate change, because under such a system the poorer children sank to the bottom, and it was impossible to tell how they were being educated. The teachers were the main factors in bringing about the change. When the grants were based on individual examination, each child had to be brought up to the required standard, but under the new method it was sufficient to have two or three clever boys at the head of the class, and the teachers were afforded an enormous relief. The change was also a great relief to the inspectors, because instead of having to examine and pass a judgment upon each individual child they had simply to pass a class on a state of general proficiency being shown. The School Boards also were in favour of the change, because it insured them a better grant and gave
    688
    them less trouble. The poor parents were the losers by the change. Ignorance would never be eradicated until the State took care that each child, even when it belonged to a poor family, was properly educated. Under the old system, the progress of education could be estimated, and it was possible to tell how many children were passing into the higher standards. That was not now the case. Inspectors got on better with the local authorities and the teachers' associations by reporting everything as satisfactory, and so a mere general opinion as to the state of the school was given, but there were no statistics as to the individual children. The Education Department should at least insist on the old standards being revived, not for the purposes of the grant, but so that year by year comparisons could be made, and they might see exactly how matters stood. Previously a parent knew each year whether his child was making progress, and if the result was unsatisfactory the reason could be ascertained. Now, however, the child was not examined until the end of his school course, and it was then too late to go back if the result was unsatisfactory. There was too much laxity with regard to the examinations, and the Scottish Education Department ought to give the matter serious attention.
    With regard to secondary education, the policy of the Department had been to kill the secondary and private schools. They began by a system of payments for specific subjects with high - sounding names, such as "English Literature" which consisted of so many lines of poetry repeated from memory, but which were secondary only in name. As a result of that policy, in places like Glasgow the board schools competed with the secondary and private schools, and as the fees in the former amounted to only about £2 as against £12 in the latter, the children were all drawn to the board schools, and the secondary schools that were not killed were crippled. That policy had now been practically reversed, and the endeavour was being made to raise up secondary schools, and to kill the secondary education in the elementary schools. One great advantage of a State-aided school was that if they had secondary

    689
    education at the top, elementary educacation in that school would be better, they would get a better class of pupils, and the whole tone of the school would be raised. Some people thought secondary education ought to be kept by itself and attached to the Universities. He thought the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Glasgow and Aberdeen Universities would agree with him that the people of Scotland were not so much enamoured with professors as to be willing to place education in Scotland under their charge, for he did not believe that the people of Scotland would ever tolerate education being worked from a University centre. This would be a fatal policy, and contrary to the traditions of Scotland. A boy should be kept under the influence of the same teacher as long as possible, and induced to go on step by step to the highest point that could possibly be reached. But if they had secondary education in every elementary school, he quite granted that they must have secondary schools as well. They should never lose sight of the fact that throughout Scotland many of the parishes were so sparsely populated that they must have the local school within reach of every child, and capable of teaching up to the highest point of going to the University. They should look at this question from the point of view of what had been the custom and habit of Scotland. It had been said that the effect of the old parochial system was that they encouraged only the clever boys, and did nothing for the others. In the old days the teacher had to attend to the very poorest as well as the wealthiest, and at that time compulsory education did not exist. He would not go into other matters because he wished to deal only with questions which were practically more imminent. He wished particularly to emphasise the fact that any money earned in this matter in Scotland, owing to the different circumstances, was earned at a great cost to the ratepayers. They ought to look at education in Scotland as a whole, and not merely the benefit conferred upon any district, because a boy afterwards went out into the world and the education he received was of benefit to the nation at large. They did not ask for any special treatment for Scotland, but simply for the
    690
    proper recognition of work done for the benefit of the State as a whole. He hoped the Lord Advocate would be able to assure them that steps were being taken to ensure that whatever England got under the present arrangement, Scotland would receive similar treatment by the Exchequer.
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSONcalled the attention of the Lord Advocate to the question of the sanitary inspection of schools in Scotland. He did so because of the delay which had occurred in dealing with Scotch educational matters. He was encouraged to raise this matter because a Commission had been appointed to inquire into the physical training of children in Scotland. Nothing was more important than to see that ventilation and other sanitary requirements were properly attended to in the schools. His experience of country districts was that the ventilation of public schools left almost everything to be desired. He knew of no more unhealthy atmosphere than the class-rooms of many country schools on wet winter days when crowded with children and when the heating as well as the ventilating apparatus was out of order. He felt sure that this cause was the source of widespread disease and injury to the health of the children. What was required was that some efficient inspector should visit the schools without notice and report as to their sanitary condition. This was necessary in the country districts so long as small School Boards continued. The bigger School Boards had larger ideas as to the requirements of schools, but more adequate inspection of the sanitary arrangements was necessary in the country districts. He wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether it was not possible for him to encourage School Boards to make provision for driving children to school from the out-lying districts. In regard to school buildings great advantage would be derived if the smaller Boards had more explicit guidance from the Scottish Office as to the character of the school buildings required in the different localities. The result of the first regulations was to produce a school-rate in some parts of 6s. or 7s. in the £1, on account of the extravagant

    691
    cost of the buildings which were put up. In some districts there were crowded and badly ventilated buildings where the money would have been better spent in providing larger space instead, of ornamental stone-work. He was sure that any guidance given by the Scottish Office would be respectfully attended to by School Boards, large and small.
    MR. JOHN DEWARcalled attention to the state of education in the Highlands and Western Islands and to the effect which the recent Minute of the Department would have on the continuation classes. The Minute would have the effect of closing these classes altogether. Owing to the social condition of the islands, and the extreme poverty which existed, education of any kind was carried on under considerable difficulties, but they, had, nevertheless, been able to carry on continuation classes very successfully. The children had to come from long distances, and for that reason it was more difficult to carry on elementary education. Up to now the School Board had been able to carry on these classes without any charge on the rates whatever. The grants they got from the Government covered the cost of carrying on the classes. Indeed in some cases there was a profit on them. The minute issued by the Department provided that in the case of continuation classes one-fourth must be borne out of the local rates. This was a very good Minute with regard to rich localities that could afford a little increase of the rate, but it was an absolutely impossible Minute with regard to the western islands of Scotland. He instanced a case in the western islands where last year the School Board carried on continuation classes which were attended by 511 pupils—young men and women—and involved no charge on the rates. This year with the charge of one-fourth of the expense the cost would have been £300 or £400. The Department in view of the special circumstances of the case had, he believed, reduced the charge to one-eighth. That was so much and the School Board was grateful for it, but even the eighth in this case represented £170. The rates in the parish were 10s. 7d. in the £1, so that the Committee would see it was absolutely impossible any more
    692
    should be taken out of the rates to meet this extra charge. He had made representations to the Department about it, and the head of the Department was in absolute sympathy with them, but he had a difficulty in meeting the case. He would press on the attention of the House that this was a case which needed special treatment, and that those ratepayers should not be asked to contribute out of their penury for this matter. It was of great importance that they should have secondary and technical instruction in these islands, perhaps move important than on the mainland, and for this reason those who were interested in the prosperity of the islands, desired that young men and women should be enabled to go south for more profitable occupations than were to be found in the islands. It was the business of this House to provide them with the technical and the secondary education which would enable them to learn trades and professions and which would make them successful citizens of this country. He trusted that the Government would give a special grant to the islands to provide secondary education.
    *MR. WEIRsaid it was unite impossible for some of the districts to contribute even one-eighth of the cost of the continuation classes referred to by the hon. Member for Inverness-shire. The people were poor and some arrangement should be made for getting rid of that charge. What was wanted was that the boys and girls in the districts where there were no industries should be educated so that they might be able to go south and make a living for themselves. He called attention to the Report of the Government Inspector, Mr. Walker, in regard to the insanitary condition of some of the schools and urged that steps should be taken to remedy this state of matters. The special grant to the Highlands was £1,200, but, in view of the requirements, he thought it should be larger. He hoped the Lord Advocate would bring this matter under the notice of the Secretary of Scotland.
    MR. BRYCEsupported the plea put forward by the hon. Member for Leith Burghs for more careful attention being given to the sanitary conditions of schools. He also concurred in the view of his hon. friend that it was a mistake

    693
    to multiply small schools. Far more effective education could be given by gathering children together in considerable numbers in central schools. He hoped, therefore, that what his hon. friend had said would have the attention of the Education Department. He asked the Lord Advocate whether any steps had been taken since this time last year in the direction indicated by the debate, which took place there on the subject of the training of teachers. At that time the Lord Advocate gave them reason to believe that some steps would be taken in the direction of developing the system of enabling King's students to attend the universities. The new grant now under discussion to be granted to English education raised an important question, and he would only say, bearing in mind the very confused position in which Scotland now stood with regard to Education Grants, that he earnestly hoped that, when the Scotch Education Department came to consider the new grant which Scotland was to receive as the equivalent of the grant to be made to England under the present Education Bill, the opportunity would be taken to endeavour to bring about a general simplification of the confused position in which they stood with regard to their various grants. Whether what he desired would be done by legislation or by Minute, he did not know, but a good deal could be done in the way of consolidating these matters by a consolidating Minute.
    MR. BENSHAW: said he did not agree with the right hon. Gentleman that the reorganisation of Scottish education could be secured by a Minute. What was required was a consolidating Act, which should put the Scottish education on a much clearer and more efficient basis. He hoped the time was rapidly approaching when this question of simplification might be dealt with, and he was quite sure that Lord Balfour was more competent than almost any one else in Scotland to deal with the matter, and give them good guidance. As to the sanitary condition of their day schools, he hoped nothing would be done by the Education Department of Scotland to weaken the responsibility of local authorities in regard to this matter.
    *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYassured the hon. Member for Mid Lanark that the views he had expressed with regard to the education grant would necessarily have very careful consideration, though he would remind him that his views were not entirely shared by those who sat beside him. The way in which the money received by Scotland would be used would be closely scrutinised, but it was not necessarily to be assumed that the money would be in the form of another extra grant. It would probably be more in the nature of an Imperial contribution, and the problem to be looked at would certainly be what contribution to local effort was to be given by the Imperial Exchequer. When they had once fixed upon that, he took it that they would apply it to Scotch needs and circumstances. As to the training of teachers, he could not say that any special new scheme had been inaugurated since the matter was dealt with last year. Greater advantage had been taken of these provisions which allowed of the University education of teachers by attending University classes, but he did not think that there had been any actual new departure in the course of the year. The whole question of the training of teachers still occupied the attention of the Education Department. With regard to the sanitary inspection of schools, he entirely repudiated the aspersion cast upon him that he treated this matter lightly. He did nothing of the kind.
    *MR. WEIR: Yes, you did.
    *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: That is not my view.
    *MR. WEIR: It is my view.
    *MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid the hon. Member was most courteous in his interruptions! What he said was that, so far from the Education Department not paying attention to the sanitary condition of the schools, they welcomed the Reports of their inspectors with regard to this question, and took action upon them. He certainly agreed with what had fallen from his hon. friend the Member for West Renfrew. It seemed to him that the local authority must remain the proper body to discharge

    695
    this duty, and it would be something quite new to cast the duty directly on the education authority. The question of continuation classes in the Highlands would full to be considered in the light of further experience next year when the Code was brought up. The continuation Code had only been running one year.
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSONurged with regard to the inspectorship of schools that the Education Department should do what it did with regard to other schools. Although it would be a difficult matter to deal with many small schools in different districts of Scotland, he did not think there would be any difficulty with regard to the large schools.
    MR. TENNANTcalled attention to the fact that there were over 30,000 nomadic gipsies in Scotland. The condition of the children educationally was awful to contemplate, they were in the darkest of ignorance, and he hoped that some steps might be taken by which the Lord Advocate might take power to bring these children within the scope of the education laws.

  SUPPLY. (29TH MAY, AFTERNOON SITTING.] —REPORT.
  Resolutions reported:—

  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1902–3.
  1. "That a sum, not exceeding £4,812,700, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the expense of the material for shipbuilding, repairs, maintenance, &c., including the cost of establishments of dockyards and Naval yards at home and abroad, which will come in course of payment daring the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903."
  MR. DALZIELsaid a great deal of dissatisfaction existed with regard to the giving out of the contract for the supply of linoleum for the use of the Navy. The fact was that for some reason or another one firm always got the, contract for the supply of linoleum to the Navy, and with the exception of one year that had been the case for many years. There was no rivalry in the
  696
  linoleum trade, and all they wanted was a fair field and no favour. They could obtain contracts in all parts of the world, but could not succeed in getting a contract to supply the British Navy, and asked if the Secretary of the Admiralty would receive a representative deputation of linoleum manufacturers.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,)consented to receive a deputation.
  2. "That a sum, not exceeding £7,665,800, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the expense of the contract work for shipbuilding, repairs, &c.r which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903."
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONdrew attention to the question of merchant cruisers, as affected by the Atlantic shipping combine. When the subject was last before the House they were told that the Admiralty had renewed its three years contract with the White Star Line, subject to certain modifications not yet known, although it was known that the White Star lane, while nominally owned by a British company, was, in point of fact, owned by a foreign corporation. But since that statement was made a new development had apparently taken place, for he understood that not the White Star Company, but a foreign financier, Mr. Pierpont Morgan, had offered to supply the British Navy with ships for fifty years as merchant cruisers, and that the Admiralty actually had that proposal under consideration. He now gathered further from the President of the Board of Trade that a special Departmental Committee was now sitting to consider this and other allied questions with the shipping combine. In the circumstances it was not likely that the Secretary to the Admiralty would be in a position to give any additional information at the moment; but he would venture once again to press the point that, in a matter so serious as this, neither the Admiralty nor the Government should make a conclusive bargain without first giving the House an opportunity of considering it. For the first time in our history

  697
  the authorities responsible for the British Navy were actually considering the propriety of contracting with a foreigner for the supply of merchant cruisers. He hoped the House would take up seriously the whole question of the utility of what were called merchant cruisers, whether they belonged to British or to foreign companies. He was inclined to agree with the hon. Member for Yarmouth that the objection to the present cruiser system was that in time of war it would take these ships away from their proper occupation, and he did not know that we ought not to face the music squarely, and build for ourselves at our own cost all the cruisers we might want. There was another subject to which he wished to call attention, and which he believed he would be in order in referring to on this Vote, and one which they were now in a position to discuss because they had all the material they were likely to have for some time to come at their disposal—the Report of the Boiler Committee. He did not consider that that Report condemned the water-tube principle entirely, but it did supply the House with materials which enabled them to ask for some final statement of the deliberate policy of the Admiralty on this much controverted question. He thought that most erroneous views as to the conclusions of the Committee had been circulated in the Press. This was a most laborious Committee. They had examined thirty six types of water-tube boilers, of which they had selected four as being suitable for war ships. In the first place, he took it that they approved of the principle of the water-tube boiler, chiefly from the military point of view and provided that a satisfactory type were adopted. Although that was a qualified verdict, it was still in favour of the water-tube principle. Secondly, the Belleville type was on the whole condemned, but even this condemnation was not altogether unqualified. Thirdly, the Committee seemed to recommend the Admiralty to search for the ideal water-tube boiler; and, fourthly, they recommended for the larger ships a combination of cylindrical and water-tube boilers until the ideal water-tube boiler was found.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: For one ship.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid there was a variety. There were four different types of water-tubes which were to be combined for one purpose.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERinterpolated a remark which was inaudible in the Press Gallery.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONsaid that at any rate he understood that this particular combination was to be tried as an experiment, and that the Committee recommended practically the same. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would tell them to what extent, if at all, the Committee was to be kept in existence for the purposes of experiment and advice, and what, in the end, was to be the boiler policy of the Admiralty?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid that he was not in a position to deal with the very broad and important question of policy to which the hon. Member had referred, and which was now under the consideration of the Government as a whole, in conjunction with the representatives of the great self governing colonies. It would have been a pleasure to him to be able to report the successful conclusion of those negotiations; but he could not do so. With regard to the question of mercantile cruisers, he was practically in the same position. But he could say that the Admiralty was certainly not relying upon any mere pledge of any foreigner such as that to which the hon. Member had referred. The subsidies which the Admiralty were now committed to pay were to be paid in respect of ships over which we had absolute control during the continuance of those subsidies. We were not dependent in any way upon so unsatisfactory a security as the hon. Member had referred to. As to what might be the ultimate decision of the Government as to the subsidising of ships in the future, and in regard to contributions towards the establishment of new lines of shipping between this country and the colonies, he was not in a position to make any statement which would be of

  699
  value to the House. With regard to the boiler question, the hon. Member seemed to have summed up very accurately the general effect of the final Report of the Boiler Committee. The Admiralty did not propose to retain the Committee, which would be discharged from its functions, and which deserved the gratitude of the Admiralty for the very painstaking work which had been accomplished by the distinguished engineers who sat upon it. The Admiralty would have a small consultative body who would maintain a constant watch over the experiments which were being made as a result of the recommendations of the Committee. It was possible that at some future day the Admiralty might make permanent some advisory body of that kind; but there was no intention of retaining the Boiler Committee as such now that it had completed its work. The upshot of the whole business was that the Admiralty was still without that certainty as to the best form of water-tube boiler which they hoped some day to attain; but they were sufficiently sure of their ground to feel justified in going forward on the lines indicated by the Committee. They were going to try four different kinds of boilers, of which the Belleville boiler was not one. These four boilers were to be used in the six new cruisers under various conditions, and in all cases they were to be combined with a certain proportion of cylindrical boilers, which would alone be able to give a speed of twelve knots, the ordinary cruising speed of the Navy. He could add nothing further, as the hon. Member had clearly and correctly dealt with the recommendation of the Committee.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLESsaid he had never attacked the water-tube boiler principle; what he had attacked was the Belleville boiler, which without doubt was most incomplete and unsatisfactory in itself. Not a single maritime Power had looked with favour on the Belleville type of boiler, although many of them had adopted other forms of water-tube boilers. He must say, however, that it had never had fair treatment from the Admiralty. The first instructions with regard to this entirely new form of boiler were issued
  700
  by the Admiralty in 1900, or five years after the boiler had been adopted in the Navy. He had constantly gone to Lord Goschen privately to beg him to have some stokers instructed by the Belleville firm; but the late First Lord was obdurate, and replied in effect that he was not going to learn stoking from a Frenchman. He had no doubt that the Report of the Committee represented the true facts of the case, and that although the water-tube principle was the right principle, the Belleville was one of the least successful types embodying that principle. There was no doubt that it was a complicated box of tricks, and very difficult to handle, but still we must have it. There were, however, serious objections to the proposal to fix up two kinds of boilers in the same ship. The Admiralty should make up its mind between the water-tube and the tubular principles, as there were serious dangers and disadvantages in having in the same ship two kinds of boilers which had not been adequately considered. As to the subsidies to merchant cruisers, he strongly protested against the action of the Admiralty in paying large subsidies to merchant cruisers which had practically ceased to be British vessels by being handed over lock, stock and barrel to, and which were controlled by, a foreign trust. Under such circumstances, it was folly to make a new agreement and continue paying the subsidies. Moreover, it was putting upon Parliament an undeserved slight, and one to which it would be dangerous to agree. The matter ought to have been submitted to the House, and an unconstitutional act had been committed in not taking the opinion of Parliament upon the new contract. To bring in the Estimate in the ordinary form, without giving any account-of the new bargain, was not securing the assent of Parliament; it was almost like obtaining money under false pretences. But this was not the end of the matter. They were told that the Government were still engaged in trying to come to an agreement with this foreign trust. What that agreement was they knew not, and it was little less than outrageous that with matters in their present condition the Government should begin paying the subsidies. The House was entitled

  701
  to know under what conditions and for what purposes the money was being paid. He was surprised that the House, and especially that part of it which called itself the Opposition, should have endured so tamely this slight.

  SUPPLY— [12TH JUNE EVENING SITTING.]—REPORT.
  Resolutions reported:—
  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1902–3.

    CLASS III.
    1. "That a sum, not exceeding £340,929, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the Expenses of the Prisons in England, Wales, and the Colonies."
    2. "That a sum, not exceeding £120,908, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Office of the Inspectors of Reformatories, and the Expenses of the Maintenance of Juvenile Offenders in Reformatory, Industrial, and Day Industrial Schools, and under the Youthful Offenders Act, in Great Britain."

  SUPPLY— [23RD JULY]—REPORT.
  Resolutions reported:—
  CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1902–3.
    CLASS I.
    1. "That a sum, not exceeding £45,802, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for payments under The Tramways and Public Companies (Ireland) Act. 1883, The Light Railways (Ireland) Acts, 1889 and 1893, The Tramways (Ireland) Act, 1895, and The Railways (Ireland) Act. 1896."

    CLASS II
    2. "That a sum, not exceeding £12,377, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1903, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of the Registrar General of Births, etc., and the Expenses of Collecting Emigration Statistics in Ireland.
    3. "That a sum, not exceeding £10,436, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for the Salaries and Expenses of the General Valuation and Boundary Survey of Ireland."
    Resolutions read a second time.
    First Resolution:—
    SIR EDWARD STRACHEYmoved to reduce the Vote by £100, not because he objected to this money being spent for the benefit of Irish farmers and others, but to point out that nothing of a similar character was ever done to assist the agriculturists of England, Scotland, or Wales. He desired to know how the money had been spent. In the majority of cases he believed the Government simply guaranteed the money, but in other cases grants were made to poor districts. England was doubtless a richer country than Ireland, but there were parts in which light railways would be of immense advantage to agriculturists and others. He thought everyone desired that they should do their best to make it easier for the small trader to carry on his business. He begged to move the Amendment standing in his name.
    Amendment proposed—
    "To leave out '£45,802,' and insert '£45,702.'"—(Sir Edward Strachey).
    Question proposed—
    "That,£45,802 stand part of the Resolution."
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,)said the hon. Member would see from the Vote that in the previous Acts of Parliament assistance had been given to industries, and more especially for the development of the fishing and agricultural industries in certain parts of Ireland. Assistance was given in certain circumstances under the English Light Railways Act. The assistance now proposed was limited by the condition that there must be a guarantee before they spent the money for the continuous working of the lines by some existing railway company. He did not think it would be wise to advance money to provide a railway which might not benefit the district it was intended to serve. He hoped the hon. Baronet would not press his Amendment.
    MR. J. P. FARRELLsaid he wished to call the attention of the Chief Secretary to what he considered was a blot on the Acts mentioned in this Vote. The guarantees under the Tramways and Railways Acts in some cases meant a very serious burden indeed to the ratepayers. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade in 1896 introduced and passed an Act for the extension of tramways, and he understood that there was u considerable unallocated balance of money upon that account. He thought the amount was about,£40,000 and that was the balance left after the various schemes had been sanctioned. He thought that balance might be used to help the poorer districts which were now suffering under the baronial guarantees which they were compelled to give in order that these light railways might be constructed. These guarantees amounted to an enormous tax upon the people. He admitted that these light railways had been a very great benefit to the people, and had brought them into touch with markets for their produce which would perhaps otherwise not have been accessible to them. He thought, however, that the cost to the ratepayers was far more than the benefits conferred upon them by the railways were worth. He hoped the Chief Secretary would give this matter his sympathetic consideration. He could assure the Chief
    704
    Secretary that one of the great blots in carrying out these Acts was that they had insisted in the poorer districts on the burdens being placed upon the ratepayers. With regard to the further extension of this system, a great many applications were made after the passing of the Act of 1896. The charges which were now put upon the producers, who wished to get to the markets by these small lines, was a very great burden indeed, and constituted a grave difficulty in the way of economic reform in Ireland. Side by side with other questions, this railway grievance was a very serious matter in Ireland. The Act passed in 1899, to give extra facilities to public bodies in regard to development of agriculture, had been a failure, and no adequate means had been afforded the people of coming before the Railway and Canal Commission. The working of the Tramways Act had involved a very great increase of taxation in the poor districts, and had not conferred upon the people the benefits originally intended by the framers of the measure. Where these Acts had been put in force as feeders to the larger lines in order to develop the railway traffic, no effort, had been made to keep the railway dues and charges within reasonable bounds, and what was gained by the construction of the line was lost by the excessive charges placed upon the carriage of goods by the different railway companies. Unfortunately, it was necessary to go to enormous expense to get the railway companies before the Railway and Canal Commission, and the result was that public and private bodies were deterred from attempting to obtain a reduction of traffic dues. If this matter could be dealt with during the present session, he hoped Irish Members would sec that such clauses were put into the Acts proposed by the Government as would relieve those poor districts which were now so seriously overburdened by the guarantees, and which would also be to the advantage of the public who wished to avail themselves of these lines.
    MR. LOUGHsaid that this Vote amounted to £45,000,

    705
    but it was only a little more than one-third of the total annual grant, and it was largely supplemented by even a larger grant contributed by the public in Ireland. Therefore, there was a large sum granted by the Imperial and also by the local Exchequer to support these railways. It was little better than a scandal that this should be so. Why was there not some attempt made to make there railways remunerative? Why did the Chief Secretary not look into this matter more sympathetically; and why should these grants be made year after year, with a tendency to increase rather than diminish? The Cavan and Leitrim Railway had made a continuous demand upon the Imperial and local Exchequer. This line passed within about three miles of a coal mine, which supplied the engines of the company with coal, and yet there was no connecting line between the railway and the mine, and all the coal had to be conveyed all that distance by road. That was an example of the absurd way in which this money was wasted. With regard to the small amount of traffic done by the subsidised service of steamers on the Shannon, he thought this was largely due to the fact that the advantages which might otherwise be derived could not be achieved because the line had not been continued to the quay. He did not think there was a single railway mentioned on the first page of this Estimate which had ever paid its working expenses. The Irish railways were a continual burden to the local and Imperial taxpayer, and this was largely due to the fact that no logical attempt had been made to develop the service which was contemplated when the railways were established. Did the right hon. Gentleman mean to continue paying these large sums in connection with Irish railway enterprises to make good losses which might be turned to a profit if they were only developed in accordance with the original ideas of the line? There was one very heavy grant for a steamer on the Shannon which he wished to know something about. He had been on this subsidised steamer himself, and upon that occasion his party were the only passengers. He wished to know how much was granted to this particular steamer. An attempt had been made
    706
    to artificially develop the tourist traffic, but this could not be done while they endeavoured to accommodate the local traffic, at the same time; and at the end of the guarantee he thought the steamers would be withdrawn and no good would have been done. He also wished to know how much money was provided in this Estimate for the steamer service from Sligo, or whether it was likely to succeed or not. He hoped the Chief Secretary would give them some further particulars in regard to the losses on these railways, which, in his opinion, occurred because the railways were not properly worked. The Government had great influence in Ireland with regard to railways, and if it were seen that proper facilities were given upon the Government railways a proper supply would be effected.
    MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL,called attention to the condition of the Tralee and Dingle Railway. He pointed out that the railway was built nine years ago, and the defects of it were such as to have been the cause of enormous expenditure ever since. An accident to one of the bridges cost the ratepayers £5,000, and prevented people travelling over the railway. The ratepayers of the district were heavily burdened in regard to this railway, and when they appealed to the authorities to make it safe, they met with the reply that there were no fund available. The inspector of the Local Government Board reported the line to be in a dangerous condition, and recommended the expenditure of £12,000 to make it safe; therefore, they were justly entitled to claim that this recommendation should be carried out. The position of the line had become impossible, and the time had come to put it on a business footing. Although they were so heavily burdened with regard to the line, the people obtained no benefit from it whatever, and they were beginning to think that it would be better to tear up the line. At present the line constituted a serious danger to the lives of the people who travelled over it, and he thought the remedy was to make it safe or that it should be turned over to the Great Southern and Western Railway and run as part of their system. If it were

    707
    properly served, it would, as it ran through the most beautiful part of Ireland, be patronised by a very large tourist traffic.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (MR. WYNDHAM,)said a larger field of debate had opened than he had anticipated would be the case when he entered the Chamber, but all the speeches had been addressed to one subject, however, with the exception of the hon. Member for Somerset, who seemed jealous of the assistance given to Ireland to provide better railway facilities. The hon. Member should realise that the help had not been of a lavish character, and had not been in any sense favoured-nation treatment. Whenever grants were made to other parts of the United Kingdom a claim arose for a counterpoise in Ireland, and it had been recognised that the grant should be allocated to Ireland's greatest need—the development of steam traffic. In the absence of such facilities it was impossible for agriculture to thrive under any land system. Therefore, preceding Governments had followed the sound course of devoting money fairly due to Ireland to the development of means of transit. The hon. Member for Longford had referred to the Cavan and Leitrim Railway. In that case there had been no free grant; there had been baronial guarantees from the counties mentioned, and if the baronies still continued to pay, so also the Exchequer suffered in respect to this and another line in the district to the extent of £5,000 or £6,000 a year. In view of this fact, it was of interest to consider if any business-like arrangement could be entertained which would turn that loss into gain. Such a discussion, however, would scarcely be indulged in at the moment. What was needed at the moment was that all those interested in the welfare of Ireland should put their heads together and devise a plan to put the Cavan and Leitrim Kailway in a better condition. It would be quite possible to turn the railways to better account, and he had felt surprise that private enterprise had not come forward for the purpose. The hon. Member for North Longford seemed
    708
    to think that a large sum was available under the Act of 1896. The total expenditure authorised under that Act was £500,000, and the whole of that had in a sense been hypothecated, with the exception that part of the expenditure under that Act was avowedly of an experimental character. For example, the Sligo and Belmullet steamer was to run for a certain number of years to see if through traffic could be developed between Sligo harbour and Belmullet, and it would not be right to interrupt the experiment until a fair trial had been given, and in view of the local expenditure on Sligo Harbour, upon which many thousands of pounds had been expended. About £25,000 still remained unexpended. There was no immediate prospect of the steamer's paying, but there was a marked and continuous development in the traffic returns. He regretted that the Marine Works Bill should be delayed, because there was a provision in it which would enable money raised under the Railways (Ireland) Act, 1896, to be applied to works under the Bill. He would have been very glad to get to work on that Bill as soon as the House was up, but if they must wait till October, there was no help for it. The time had come for taking stock of the experiments of 1896. He had done so, and he believed that savings might be effected under that Act. If there were a better coastwise traffic along the West coast of Ireland, it would be possible to work the mineral resources of that part of the country which at present could not be carried out except at a loss. He could not undertake to spend anything more on experimental tourist routes, and that would find employment for a number of people. He said frankly that he thought enough had been spent in that direction, and if they were to be developed it must be by private enterprise. It would be better for the Government to concentrate their efforts in providing better transshipment facilities for working the produce of the West of Ireland. As to the Dingle Railway, a hope had been expressed that it might be made to pay and might be made safe. He believed it ought to be made safe, but if it was made safe it did not follow that it would pay, and he could

    709
    not admit that the barony could altogether complain because they had to go on with a guarantee, though he admitted that the charges in respect of the railway were a heavy burden on County Kerry. He would very much regret if, on account of such burdens, the mind of any one in Ireland were turned against reproductive works, for he believed that in that way a great deal might be done for the West of Ireland. As to the suggestion that the Dingle Railway should be handed over to the Great Southern and Western Railway Company, he doubted that would be possible, seeing that the cost of changing the gauge would be almost eight times the cost of making the line safe with the present gauge. Moreover, it was impossible to get the great railway companies to take over such lines when they were subject to legislation in respect of rates which they considered unjust. Agricultural rates were high, but no one could say that the railways made a great deal of money, and it would be futile to kill one industry in the hope of saving another. He did not know whether he was justified in saying so, but it appeared to him that many of those who complained did not avail themselves of the means of redress that they had at their disposal. They made general complaints, where, if they made specific complaints, he thought they would be remedied or at least receive greater consideration.
    MR. MURPHYsaid the line and the carriages of the Dingle Railway were utterly unsuitable for the purposes intended, and recently, in consequence, during a severe storm a train was blown off the line. The hon. Member then referred to the Kilorglin line, for which he said a guarantee of an unreduced amount had still to be paid, although it was worked by the Great Southern and Western Company. Every effort had been made on the part of the ratepayers, by means of representation to the Irish Government and to the Department of Agriculture, to have the accounts of the Great Southern examined in order to obtain a reduction of the guarantee rate, but so far without avail. In the case of the Headfort and Kentnare line there was the competition of a waterway, by
    710
    means of which traders were able to bring up their goods at a lower rate than would otherwise rule, but the pier was so much out of repair that the waterway stood a fair chance of being knocked out of the competition. Recently the Chief Secretary said nothing could be done in the matter, but surely there might be an examination of the accounts of the railway. If there was, he was satisfied the fact would be disclosed that the traffic along the line had gone on increasing.
    MR. FLYNNsaid that the whole story of the construction and management of the light railways was deplorable. These lines were managed by people who were in no way responsible to the commercial classes of the community. With regard to specific complaints, the complaint they made was that the Agricultural Department did not seek for power to audit the books of the Great Southern and Western Company, with a view of seeing whether the Kenmare line was properly worked or not. Then there was the case of the Tralee and Dingle Railway and the Sehull and Skibbereen line. He had no expectation that any expenditure of money would result in greater facilities of transport or in any considerable development of the industries of the country as long as the present system of management obtained, under which the people found the money, but had a very little share in the control. The whole story of light railways construction was a deplorable one. In many cases the lines had been badly constructed, and were carried on without any regard to the views of the commercial classes. If the whole control could not be given to the people, there ought, at least, to be a qualified inspector appointed to represent the Board of Works, whose duty it would be to go into these various matters, and see what improvements could be effected in the management, with a view to making the railways more useful to the districts through which they ran.
    MR. DILLONhoped the Chief Secretary would reconsider his decision to postpone the Marine Works Bill until the autumn. The measure might be passed after a very moderate

    711
    amount of discussion unless it were blocked by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Antrim. Nothing could be devised better calculated to relieve the poverty along the North-West coasts of Ireland than measures to enable the fishermen to pursue their calling. The fishermen in the islands off the West coast had been lifted, by such measures, out of chronic poverty into comparative comfort. No expenditure was morn promising than that under the Marine Works Bill, which would give the people a chance of becoming self-supporting and moderately prosperous. With reference to the question of light railways, he hoped there was not going to be a reversal to the policy of the Act of 1883, under which a heavy burden was cast upon the ratepayer. Since the adoption of the new policy the railways had been excellently constructed in all respects. The question of railway rates was, no doubt, a burning one, but, in spite of all that had been said, he held that the only true and practicable policy, from a business point of view, was to build these railways with a view to their being handed over to and worked by some of the great companies. These feeder lines must be at the mercy of the main trunk lines, which, unless they got hold of them, would not grant them the facilities necessary to their proper development. These main lines were undoubtedly selfish and always would be until they were nationalised under a Home Rule Government. Pending that, these great railway companies had to be dealt with. Furthermore, these branch lines would not pay unless they were worked in conjunction with the main lines. He had alluded to this matter chiefly because something said by the Chief Secretary aroused in his mind a suspicion that the right hon. Gentleman might be considering a reversal of that policy by going back to the narrow gauge lines. In Ireland they ought to stick to the broad guage, because if they did not it would be impossible to lower the railway rates if they had to continually tranship the goods from one line to another.
    MR. O'MALLEYsaid he wished to join in the appeal to the Chief Secretary not to postpone the Marine Works Bill, which, inadequate though it was, would yet confer advantages on one of the most interesting but
    712
    poverty-stricken districts of the country. It would be a great disappointment to his constituents if the Bill was not carried this session. He urged the Chief Secretary to make every effort to pass the Bill this week, so that Connemara might get the advantage of it.
    MR. TULLYcalled attention to the case of the railway from Cavan to Leitrim, which, having been constructed by local guarantee under the Act of 1883, had been a very severe burden, especially on the people of South Leitrim. The railway had never paid, and for nearly 20 years the ratepayers had had to pay 5 per cent. interest on the capital and also to make up a deficiency on the working expenses. In the case of a farmer who bought his land the repayments would not come to 5 per cent, and why should the ratepayers have to pay a bigger sum than the tenant farmer who bought his land. It had been stated that in return for their contribution the ratepayers had some control over these lines, but they had no control whatever over the election of directors. It was the grand jury who represented nobody who appointed the baronial directors. In regard to the Cavan and Leitrim line the ratepayers had no voice whatever in the appointment of the directors, although they had to pay 5 per cent. upon the capital, and also had to contribute to the working expenses of the line. The only way to relieve the ratepayers would be to municipalise these light railways. He hoped that when the right hon. Gentleman came to deal with these light railways he would bear in mind the very heavy burden they were to the poorer districts. If the Cavan and Leitrim railway had constructed a few branch lines it would have been a paying concern, instead of which the ratepayers had to make up the loss.
    MAJOR JAMESONsaid that the only policy to pursue in respect of the Irish light railways was for the State to purchase them and nationalise them. The traffic rates on Irish railways could be reduced by 50 per cent, and then be made to pay. Some of the railways which had been mentioned were broad gauge lines, but in his own constituency they had the

    713
    narrow gauge which was difficult and costly to work, and this was rendered far more expensive by the cost of transshipment which would not have been necessary had the line been constructed upon the broad gauge system. There was one point which he thought in a great measure had been lost sight of, and it was that no matter how much money they spent upon developing agriculture and railways, it would not be of the slightest use to the producer and to the people generally unless those enormous and ruinous charges made by the companies wore considerably reduced, for at the present time they would not enable the agriculturist to exist. The first thing that ought to be done to bring anything like prosperity to Ireland was that the Irish railways should be acquired by the State. He believed that if the railways of Ireland were placed in the hands of commercial people they would pay and be of enormous benefit to the country. If they were properly managed, the traffic rates could be reduced by 50 percent., and still be made to pay. It was an absolute absurdity that a poor country like Ireland should have to struggle against these enormous railway charges. It was a fact that they could get butter from Denmark in this country cheaper than from Dublin. Many of the suggestions which had been made would have been no use unless they went right to the bottom of the difficulty, because the lines instead of being conducted in their interests were of no benefit whatever because they were mismanaged.
    *THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member will not be in order, on this Resolution, in going into the general question of the management of Irish railways.
    MAJOR JAMESONsaid if it was not in order to speak of their management he could only ask the Chief Secretary to inquire into that matter. He had for many years taken a deep interest in the piers and harbours of Ireland, and he was certain that the best assistance that could be given to them was by providing railways.
    MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid he was sorry to intervene,
    714
    but he did so because he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would say a word in answer to what had fallen from the hon. Member for East Mayo as to the Marine Works Bill. The suggestion was that it might be taken in front of the Public Works Loans Bill, and at an hour when they would be able to obtain the discussion necessary. There was an understanding which had now become impossible that they were to have another sitting for the discussion of those Bills. A comparatively short time would be sufficient for the discussion of the Marine Works Bill, and if the suggestion of his hon. friend were followed it would save this Bill from going over to the autumn session with all the risks which must necessarily attend its going over to that time. Really this was a matter of arrangement, and if the right hon. Gentleman would come to an understanding with the hon. Member below the gangway, who was the chief opponent, it might be possible to get the Bill through before they separated.
    MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid it would be impossible for him to respond definitely to the suggestion of the hon. Member in the absence of the Leader of the House. He was anxious to see progress made with the Bill, but it was necessary to include the Public Works Loans Bill in the financial business of the ordinary session. If it was not obtained now, the Commissioners would not have sufficient money to carry on their work until the Autumn session, and would be unable to make advances under the loans already sanctioned.
    MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid that what he suggested was that the Marine Works Bill should be put on the Paper before the Public Works Loans Bill.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he would most gladly assent to the proposed arrangement on the understanding that on the Second Reading of the Public Works Loans Bill it should be treated as a non-controversial measure. If the latter Bill were not passed the greatest inconvenience would be caused to municipalities and other public bodies in England.
    MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid he was not in a position to say that the Public Works Loans Bill would be treated as a non-controversial measure. All that he asked was that the Marine Works Bill should be placed in front of it. The discussion of it would take a limited time, and to that extent only would the Public Works Loans Bill be delayed.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid that if there were a disposition to facilitate business any machinery would serve the purpose. He was only afraid that the discussion on the first Bill might be prolonged to delay the second.
    Second Resolution:—
    MR. LOUGHcalled attention to the statements of statistics with regard to emigration, and other matters which were prepared by that office. It appeared that last year there were 40,000 emigrants, and during the last fifty years the total number had been about 4,000,000. No one ever paid the slightest attention to the statistics presented. The Chief Secretary in a recent speech stated that what Ireland wanted was that some step should be taken to stop emigration, which was the real grievance of Ireland. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman and wished to know whether any steps were to be taken. Were these terrible statistics to be collected every year for no practical purpose?
    MR. WYNDHAMsaid that by statistical information was gauged the size and nature of a problem, and that at least was the condition precedent to dealing with the problem. The subject
    of emigration was a most important one; but he must respectfully decline to discuss it on the present occasion.

  SUPPLY—REPORT [4TH AUGUST, AFTERNOON SITTING.].
  Resolutions reported:—

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1902–3.
  1. "That a sum, not exceeding.£11,242,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge for Transport and Remounts, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903."
  2. "That a sum, not exceeding £16,066,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge for Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903."
  3. "That a sum, not exceeding £3,970,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge for Clothing Establishments and Services, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903."
  Resolutions read a second time.
  First Resolution:—
  (7.23.) Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  The House divided:—Ayes 157; Noes, 78. (Division List No. 370.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Charrington, Spencer

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bond, Edward

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bull, William James

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Butcher, John George

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Caldwell, James

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A.(Glasgow

  Cranborne, Lord

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbyshire)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Bigwood, James

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

  Keswick, William

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Lee, Arthur H.(Hants, Fareham

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Dorington Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Rutherford, John

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

  Elibank, Master of

  Leigh Bennett, Henry Currie

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Fergusson. Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Smith, Abel H.(Hertford, East)

  Finch, George H.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. W.G. Ellison

  Spear, John Ward

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Flower, Ernest

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Foster, Sir Michaell (Lond. Univ.

  Majendle, James A. H.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.)

  Stroyan, John

  Gardner, Ernest

  Milvain, Thomas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Gordon,.J.(Londonderry, South

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH' mlets

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Valentia, Viscount

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Gouldiug, Edward Alfred

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton

  Harmsworth, R, Leicester

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

  Haslett, Sir James Homer

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Penn, John

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath)

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hope, J. K. (Sheffield, Brightside)

  Purvis, Robert

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Randles, John S.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Ceeil

  Rea, Russell

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Sir William Walrond and

  Johnstone, Hey wood (Sussex)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'Malley, William

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  O'Mara, James

  Atherley Jones, L.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Brigg, John

  Law, Hugh Alex.(Donegal, W.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Leamy, Edmund

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Levy, Maurice

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lough, Thomas

  Roche, John

  Cawley, Frederick

  Lundon, W.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Crean, Eugene

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Cremer, William Randal

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Cullinan, J.

  M'Govern, T.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo. North)

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Mansfield. Horace Rendall

  Sullivan, Donal

  Delany, William

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Dillon, John

  Murnaghan, George

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Murphy, John

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Duffy, William J.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Edwards, Frank

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Captain Donelan and Mr.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry. W.)

  Patrick O'Brien.

  Jaeoby, James Alfred

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N)

  Third Resolution agreed to.

  It being after half-past Seven of the clock, further consideration of subsequent Resolutions stood adjourned till this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  SUPPLY—REPORT.— [4TH AUGUST,AFTERNOON SITTING.]
  Postponed Resolutions further considered.
  Second Resolution:—
  MR. CALDWELLsaid it was hopeless in present circumstances to expect a useful discussion of the items of which this large Vote was composed; but to mark his sense of the manner in which the business of Supply had been conducted he moved a reduction of the Vote by £1,000.
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out '£16,066,000,' and insert '£16,065,000.'"—(Mr. Caldwell.)
  Question proposed, "That £16,066,000 stand part of the Resolution."
  MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSwished to say a few words on the general question involved in this very important Vote, especially to the supplies of food and forage for the Army. Before the noble Lord came into his present office these matters used to form the subject of burning inquiries by hon. Members opposite, and the hon. Member for the St. Patrick Division of Dublin was continually raising the question of the desirability of obtaining meat for His Majesty's forces from home sources instead of from over the water. Personally, he had many controversies with the hon. Member on the point, the contention put forward being that it was possible to get home meat quite as cheaply as foreign meat. He was advised in those days that it was quite impossible to exclude foreign meat, and that in many cases the source of supply could not be traced. Then there was the question of quality, and it was maintained—unsuccessfully as he thought—that home supplied meat was of very inferior quality to some of that which came from our Colonies and from South America. [Nationalist cries of "No."]
  720
  Of course, he did not expect hon. Members to agree with that, but still the result of inquiries was undoubtedly that much of the meat produced in Ireland and supplied to the troops was not of the equal quality to that obtained from colonial sources.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: Is the right hon. Gentleman in order in discussing the Vote generally, when an Amendment has been moved with respect of a particular subject?
  *MR. SPEAKERruled that the right hon. Gentleman was in order.
  MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSsaid he would be glad to know from his noble friend whether there had been any change in the policy of the War Office since the time those points were raised. He was somewhat disappointed to notice that the eagerness formerly displayed in the discussion of this subject had not been kept up. Then the Vote included a sum for straw. At one time he thought it undesirable that the straw which was supplied to the troops in very large quantities should be obtained from foreign sources, and he held that some preference might reasonably be given to English producers. Indeed, he was satisfied by the inquiries he had made that such a system could have been adopted without putting any extra charge on the taxpayers of the country. He now asked had any step been found practicable in that direction. Had the Department reduced the purchases on the continent and increased those in this country? The Vote contained an item of £1,200,000 for the concentration camps. That was a very heavy charge, and he would like to know whether the recipients of the benefits conferred had expressed themselves grateful to this country for what had been done for them in the untoward circumstances in which they had been situated.
  AN HON. MEMBER: How about the children in their graves?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!
  MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSsaid it had been implied by some hon. Members opposite that this £1,200,000 had been

  721
  spent on "methods of barbarism," but as a matter of fact it had been expended in keeping alive women, children, and old men, who, without the shelter of these camps, must have inevitably perished. A large portion of the money had been spent on the education of those who were gathered into the camps.
  MR. CALDWELL: What has that to do with the War Office Vote?
  *MR. SPEAKER: The right hon. Gentleman is not entitled to go into the policy of establishing the concentration camps, or the mode in which the persons there were concentrated.
  MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSsaid he thought he was entitled to ask what portion of the expenditure had been incurred in education, and how much on recreation; also to what extent it had been spent on medical comforts and food.
  *COLONEL BLUNDELLsaid he wished—
  A NATIONALIST MEMBER: Speak up.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I must ask hon. Members sitting in the shade on the back Bench to be more orderly, and not to interrupt the hon. Member who may be in possession with disorderly observations.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: If that is addressed to me, Sir, I would point out it is the first observation I have made since I raised a point of order. It is, too, the first time I have heard it stated to be disorderly to ask an hon. Member to speak out.
  *MR. SPEAKER: I was referring to several observations made at different times from that quarter by Members whom I could not identify. There are two ways—a polite and an impolite way—of asking an hon. Member to speak louder.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I have made no observations except those to which I have referred.
  *COLONEL BLUNDELLsaid he wished to know whether the hay that was served out in the late war was British hay, and
  722
  how it succeeded, and, whether, as in former wars, horses, when they were doing little work, were put upon a reduced amount of forage with a view to its being increased when they were doing heavier work. With regard to the purchase of forage, he thought the Government should be very careful to give our own people a fair chance. He did not mean to say that the War Office should pay more than the market price, but if they could come approximately to the market price it was for the benefit of this country that our farmers should be dealt with, so that they may sympathise with the soldiers, who ought to be exercised over their farms.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Lord STANLEY,)said the troops were being fed as far as possible on home-fed and home-killed meat. He had had several consultations with the hon. Member for the St. Patrick Division of Dublin, and had so rearranged the contract as to secure that the meat should be both home fed and home-killed, so that no question should arise of foreign meat being supplied as home produce. He had not got in the returns showing how the change had worked, but in one ease he was bound to admit that the, result had been by no means satisfactory, as the General Officer reported that the men infinitely preferred the Australian to the home-fed meat now supplied there. During the war as much hay as could be got from our own country was obtained. But the demand was so great that it had to be obtained from all quarters, and the best bay then got was from South America. A very good lot of hay was also got from Australia. Although it was compressed it lost nothing in value by the pressure, and an enormous advantage was gained in facility of transportation. The question of the concentration camps raised issues of policy which it was not for him to deal with on the Report of this Vote. The War Office carried on the expense of the concentration camps, leaving for future adjustment with the Colonial Office the distribution of responsibility for payment. He could not say how long they would last. They were being used at this moment not only for sheltering those who had been there during the

  723
  war, and had not yet been removed, but for the reception of returning prisoners while they were waiting to be drafted off as their homes were got ready. He hoped they would get some slight return
  for the outlay by the sale of the buildings which had been erected.
  (9.23.) Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 121; Noes, 71. (Division List No 371.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Purvis, Robert

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Randles, John S.

  Allhusen, Augustus H 'nry Eden

  Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Arnold-Foster, Hugh O.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Balfour, Rt HnGerald W.(Leeds

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Bhowoaggree, Sir M. M.

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Bigwood, James

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Bill, Charles

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  HigginboUom, S W.

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Rutherford, John

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Samvel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Bull, William James

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Shaw-Stewart, H. M. (Renfrew

  Billiard, Sir Harry

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Butcher, John George

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

  Smith. HC (North'mb. Tyneside

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Johnstone. Heywood (Sussex)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh,

  Kimber, Henry

  Spear, John Ward

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Charrington, Spencer

  Lawson, John Grant

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Brkenhead)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stroyan, John

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Valentia, Viscount

  Cranborne, Lord

  Lowe, Francis William

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Welby, Lt-Col A.C.E. (Taunton

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton and Lyne

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Williams, Rt Hn J. Powell-(Birm

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Milvain, Thomas

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Morgan, David J.(Walthamst'w

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Morton, Arthur H. A. Deptford

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks

  Finch, George H.

  Murray. Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Wylie, Alexander

  Firbank, Sir-Joseph Thomas

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. (George

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Flower, Ernest

  Plummer, Walter R.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, SW.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Sir William Walrond and

  Gardner, Ernest

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Lundon, W.

  Atherley-Joaes, L.

  Dilke, Kt. Hon. Sir Charles

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Bell, Richard

  Dillon, John

  M'Govern, T.

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Brigg, John

  Doogan, P. C.

  Murnaghan, George

  Broadhurst. Henry

  Farreil, James Patrick

  Murphy, John

  Burns, John

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Cameron. Robert

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway. N.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Gilhooly, James

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Harden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'r'ry Mid

  Crean, Eugene

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Cullinan, J.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Leamy, Edmund

  O'Malley, William

  Duvies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Levy, Maurice

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Delany, William

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Rea, Russell

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Strachey. Sir Edward

  White, Luke (York, E.R.)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Sullivan, Donal

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Tully, Jasper

  Roche, John

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Mr. Caldwell and Mr. J. H.

  Shechan, Daniel Daniel

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Whitley.

  Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid he deprecated any wish to speak against time, but there was one item of £16,000,000 to which he wished to call attention. In Committee he had stated that 1,500 horses were brought into Stellinbosch, and fed only on chaff and deliberately starved. He had not then the letter to which he referred, and he now wished to justify what he then said with reference to only one of the thousands of scandals which had taken place during the war, by reading the letter to the House. [The hon. Member read the letter.] These horses which were bought from the farmers, not for the purpose of the war, were deliberately starved, and we had to pay to the tune of £16,000,000 to these remount gentlemen, who certainly were not fed on the chaff of these contracts. No effort of the War Office to conceal this scandal would prosper. He had stated it on the floor of the House, and the Government would not venture to contradict it. He believed every word of the letter was true, and if he had a chance on the Second or Third Reading of the Appropriation Bill he would favour the House with some further information on the subject. Again and again he had heard from friends at the front of the horrible cruelties practised out there, and Lord Kitchener must have known of this matter. This was cruelty and simply torture to dumb animals. The right hon. Gentleman opposite laughed when he spoke about these horses being ted on chaff,
  but chaff was as bad a thing to feed horses on as thistles would be bad as food for gentlemen who, of course, were, not in this House. If the right hon. Gentleman knew nothing about this, transaction, then he had been kept in the dark by his officials, whom he-ought to dismiss. If the Secretary of State for War did not make inquiries into this matter, then he would be grossly neglecting his duty, and so far from earning £5,000 a year he would not be, worth £1 a week.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Lord STANLEY,)said that the hon. Member had commenced by saying that he was going to make a three minutes speech, but his remarks had expanded themselves into a ten minutes speech. The hon. Gentleman had made the wildest possible accusation without giving his authority. He thought that in this case the hon. Member was right in not trying to do so. This information had only been confided to the hon. Member, and nobody else had heard anything else about it. This was one of the numerous mare's nests which the hon. Gentleman was so delighted to find. He would briefly answer the hon. Member in three sentences. In the first place, the War Office were making inquiries; in the second place, glanders did not come from chaff; and in the third place, when glanders existed, the horses ought to be shot.
  (9.43.) Question put.
  The House divided: — Ayes, 177' Noes, 70. (Division List No. 372).

  AYES

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Balfour. Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Brigg, John

  Allhusen, August's Henry Eden

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bigwood, James

  Bull, William James

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Bill, Charles

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Butcher, John George

  Caldwell, James

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbysh.)

  Hope. J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Ritchie, Rt Hon Chas. Thomson

  Charrington, Spencer

  Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenbam)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hozier, Hon James Henry Cecil

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Jossel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Joicey, Sir James

  Rutherford, John

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Cranborne, Lord

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Kimber, Henry

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Knowles, Lees

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lawson, John Grant

  Smith, HC.(North'mb. Tvn'side

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Spear, John Ward

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stroyan, John

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lowe, Francis William

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Le'th)

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Finch, George H.

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Valentia, Viscount

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison

  Wallace, Robert

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriesshire

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Flower, Ernest

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Welby, Lt-Col. ACE. (Taunton

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und Lyne

  Gardner, Ernest

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Williams, Rt Hn J Powel-(Birm

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.

  Gore, Hn G.R.C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Sir William Walrond and

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Purvis, Robert

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Randles, John S.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Murphy, John

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Gilhooly, James

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Burns, John

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Brien, Keudal (Tipperary Mid

  Cameron, Robert

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Carew, James Laurence

  Leamy, Edmund

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Charming, Francis Allston

  Levy, Maurice

  O'Malley, William

  Crean, Eugene

  Lewis, John Herbert

  O'Shauyhnessy, P. J.

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Cullinan, J.

  Lundon, W.

  Rea, Russell

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Delany, William

  M'Govern, T.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Dewar, John A. (Inveruess-sh.

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Roche, John

  Dillon, John

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Doogan, P. C.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Murnaghan, George

  Sullivan, Donal

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Weir, James Galloway

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Tully, Jasper

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Walton, Joseph (Bamsley)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Captain Donelan and Mr.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Patrick O'Brien.

  Third Resolution:—
  Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEasked the Financial Secretary to the War Office if he could inform the House of any arrangements the Government had made with a view to keeping large stores of different kinds for use in the event of the mobilisation of the Army.
  COLONEL WELBYsaid it was most important that there should be large supplies of stores, not only for the skeleton battalions at home, but for the whole of the Reserves which had to be called out in time of war. He would also like to emphasize what was said last night with regard to the underclothing and the different kinds of wear required by the soldiers. He knew from his own experience that there was an enormous amount of ill-feeling in the Army at the contant charges which were brought against the men's pockets for absolutely necessary wear. This was really one of those questions which made the soldier very uncomfortable.
  LORD STANLEYsaid this question of a reserve of supplies was a most difficult
  one, and one which it was impossible to answer for the reason that they had been shipping out to South Africa, as fast as ever they could, right up to the conclusion of the war, vast supplies of stores of clothing of all sorts and kinds. That clothing had been issued to a certain extent in South Africa; but, at the same time, they believed there must remain over a very large supply, which would come back to form part of their reserve. They were not stopping the issue and manufacture of clothing, so that they might be perfectly certain that the reserve was not incomplete when they got back to normal times. There was one thing that rather militated against the reserve being made up, and that was the fact that they had changed the whole pattern.
  It being Ten of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 28th April, put forthwith the Question necessary to dispose of the Resolution then under consideration.
  (10.0.) Question put accordingly, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 205; Noes, 95. (Division List No. 373.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Cranborne, Lord

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Brown. George M. (Edinburgh)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden

  Bull. William James

  Cross, Herb, Shepherd (Bolton)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Arrol, Sir William

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Davies. M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Causton. Richard Knight

  Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Charrington, Spencer

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks-

  Clive, Capt. Percy A.

  Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Bigwood, James

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Bill, Charles

  Cohen. Benjamin Louis

  Ferguson, R. C. Mnnro (Leith)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Finch, George H.

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Bond, Edward

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Fison, Frederick William

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Flower, Ernest

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Round, Rt. Hon. James

  Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S. W.

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Rutherford, John

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Gibbs, Hn A.G.H. (City of Lond.

  Lough, Thomas

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Lowe, Francis William

  Seely, Maj J.E.B. (Isel of Wight

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

  Lowther, C. (Comb., Eskdale)

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'mlets

  Lowther, Rt. Hn. Jame-(Kent)

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Macartney, Rt Hn W.G. Ellison

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Smith, H. C (N'rth'mb. Tyneside

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Spear, John Ward

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Guest. Hon. Ivor Churchill

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dnmfr'sshire

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Strachey, Sir Edward

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Milvain, Thomas

  Stroyan, John

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Montagu, Hon. J Scott (Hants

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

  Morton, Arthur H A. (Deptford)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Murray Rt Hn. A. Grah'm (Bute

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Murray, Col. Wyudham (Bath)

  Warr, Augustus Fredercik

  Hoult, Joseph

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Welby, Lt- Col. A.C. E (Taunton

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torresn

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne

  Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Jessel, Captain Herbert, Merton

  Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley

  Williams, Rt Hn J Powell (Birm.

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Plammer, Walter R.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.

  Kimber, Henry

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Knowles, Lees

  Purvis, Robert

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Randles, John S.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Raseh, Major Frederie Caine

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Lawson, John Grant

  Reid, James (Gresnock)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Sir William Walrond and

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Dunn. Sir William

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Edwards, Frank

  M'Govern, T.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Mansiield, Horace Rendall

  Bell, Richard

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Mooney, John J.

  Brigg, John

  Gilhooly, James

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Grant, Corrie

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Burns, John

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Murnaghan, George

  Caldwell. James

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Murphy, John

  Cameron, Robert

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.

  Carew, James Laurence

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Crean, Eugene

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Cremer, William Randal

  Joicey. Sir James

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Cullinan, J.

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Leamy, Edmund

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Delany, William

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  O'Malley, William

  Dewar, John A. (lnverness-sh.

  Levy, Maurice

  O'Mara, James

  Dillon, John

  Lundon, W.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Sullivan, Donal

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Rea, Russell

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan Gower

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Tally, Jasper

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Wallace, Robert

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'rsf'd

  Roche, John

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Weir, James Galloway

  Captain Donelan and Mr.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Patrick O'Brien.

  Mr. SPEAKERthen proceeded, in pursuance of the same Order, to put forthwith severally the Questions, That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of each class of the Civil Services Estimates, the Navy Estimates, the Army Estimates, and the Revenue Departments Estimates:—

  CIVIL SERVICES ESTIMATES, 1902–3.

    CLASS I.
    (10.8.) Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class I. of the Civil Services Estimates."
    The House divided:—Ayes, 202; Noes, 112. (Division List No. 374.)

    CLASS II.
    (10.23.) Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect
    736
    of Class II. of the Civil Services Estmates."
    The House divided:—Ayes, 203; Noes, 116. (Division List No. 375.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Keswick, William

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.

    Kimber, Henry

    Arrol, Sir William

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Knowles. Lees

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Bain, Colonel James Robert

    Finch, George H.

    Lawson, John Grant

    Balcarres, Lord

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

    Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Fison, Frederick William

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose

    Llewellyn, Evan Henry

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

    Flower. Ernest

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Bigwood, James

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

    Bill, Charles

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Long. Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Gardner, Ernest

    Lonsdale. John Brownlee

    Bond, Edward

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.

    Lowe, Francis William

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

    Bull, William James

    Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'r H'mlts

    Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Gore, Hn. G R.C. Ormsby-(Salop

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Butcher, John George

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Cavendish, V.C. W. (Derbyshire

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    Malcolm, Ian

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

    Charrington, Spencer

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh.

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Milvain, Thomas

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Molesworth, sir Lewis

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Haslett. Sir James Horner

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants.)

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley)

    Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

    Cranborne, Lord

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Morton, Arthur H.A. (Deptford

    Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E)

    Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Hoult, Joseph

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Howard, J.(Midd., Tottenham)

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

    Penn, John

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Seely, Major JEB (Isle of Wight

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E (Taunt'n

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Pryce- Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Smith, H.C (North'mb. Tyneside

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

    Purvis, Robert

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Randles, John S.

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm.

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Spear, John Ward

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh, N.

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Stroyan, John

    Wylie, Alexander

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Rutherford, John

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Valentia, Viscount

    Sir William Walrond and

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    O'Malley, William

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    O'Mara, James

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Horniman, Frederick John

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Rea, Russell

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Brigg, John

    Joicey. Sir James

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Burns, John

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Roche, John

    Caldwell, James

    Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Cameron, Robert

    Leamy, Edmund

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Carew, James Laurence

    Levy, Maurice

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Cawley, Frederick

    Lough, Thomas

    Sullivan, Donal

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Lundon, W.

    Tennant, Harold John

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Crean, Eugene

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

    Cremer, William Randal

    M'Govern, T.

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Cullinan, J.

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Dalziel, James Henry

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Tully, Jasper

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Wallace, Robert

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

    Mooney, John J.

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Delany, William

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Weir, James Galloway

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Murnaghan, George

    White. Luke (York, E. R.)

    Dillon, John

    Murphy, John

    Whiteley, George (York W.R.)

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Doogan, P. C.

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Dunn, Sir William

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

    Edwards, Frank

    Norman, Henry

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

    Farrell, James Patrick

    Norton. Capt. Cecil William

    Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsfrd

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    O'Brian, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Flynn, James Christopher

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    Grant, Corrie

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Mr. Wrarner and Mr. Bell.

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O' Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt, Sir Alex. F.

    Gordon. J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Gordon, Maj. Evans (T'r H'lets

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

    Gore, Hn G. K. C. Ormsby-(Salop

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Arnold -Forster, Hugh O.

    Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Arrol, Sir William

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Peel, Hon. W. Robert Wellesley

    Bagot. Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    Penn, John

    Bain, Colonel James Robert

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Balcarres, Lord

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (M'x

    Pryce Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Beaeh, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W

    Purvis, Robert

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Randles, John S.

    Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Bigwood, James

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Bill, Charles

    HAY, HON. CLAUDE GEORGE

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Renshaw, Charles Bide

    Bond, Edward

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Boseawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Higgmbottom, S. W.

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Bull, William James

    Hoult, Joseph

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Rutherford, John

    Butcher, John George

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Seely Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

    Cavendish, V.C. W. (Derbyshire

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of W,)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

    Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Charrington, Spencer

    Keswick, William

    Smith, Abel H. (Hereford, East)

    Clive, Capt. Percy A.

    Kimber, Henry

    Smith, H. C. (North'mb. T'side

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A.E.

    Knowles, Lees

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

    Spear, John Ward

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Lawson, John Grant

    Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)

    Comptoo, Lord Alwyne

    Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Stroyan John

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Sturt, Hon. Humphrey Napiem

    Cross, Herb, Shepherd (Bolton)

    Llewellyn, Evan Henry

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (C'ham

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Dewar, Sir T. R. (T'r Hm'lets)

    Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

    Valentia, Viscount

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Lowe, Francis William

    Warde, Col. C. E.

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Lowther. C. (Cumb, Eskdale

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent)

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E.

    Welby, Lt.-Col A.C.E (Taunt'n

    Durmng-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Finch, George H.

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriesh.

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh N)

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Milvain, Thomas

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Fison, Frederick William

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

    FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Wylie, Alexander

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Flower, Ernest

    Moon. Edward Robert Pacy

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Foster, Pinllip S (W'rwick, S. W.

    Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Gardner, Ernest

    Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptford)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of L.)

    Mount, William Arthur

    Sir William Walrond and

    Godson, Sir Angustns Frederick

    Munay. Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Brigg, John

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Bell, Richard

    Broadhurst, Henry

    738

    739

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Burns, John

    Joicey, Sir James

    Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

    Caldwell, James

    Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Cameron, Robert

    Jones, William (Carn'rvonshire

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Carew, James Laurence

    Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Leamy, Edmund

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Roche, John

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Levy, Maurice

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Crean, Eugene

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Lloyd-George, David

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Cullinan, J.

    Lough, Thomas

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Lundon, W.

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Davies, M. Vaugban-(Cardigan

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Tennant, Harold John

    Delany, William

    M'Govern, T.

    Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Thomas, J. A. (Glamorgan, G'r)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Dillon, John

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Mooney, John J.

    Tully, Jasper

    Doogan, P. C.

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Wallace, Robert

    Dunn, Sir William

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Edwards, Frank

    Murnaghan, George

    Warner, Thomas Conrtenay, T.

    Farrell, James Patrick

    Murphy, John

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

    Fergusson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Weir, James Galloway

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

    While, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Furness, Sir Christopher

    Norman, Henry

    Whiteley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Gilhooly, James

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Grant, Corrie

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    Woodhouse, Sir J T.(Huddersf'd

    Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

    O'Donnell John (Mayo, S)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Horniman, Frederick John

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    O'Malley, William

    Mr. Cawley and Mr. Rea.

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    O'Mara, James

    CLASS III.
    (10.35.) Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect
    of Class III. of the Civil Services Estimates."
    The House divided: —Ayes,204; Noes, 114. (Division List No. 376.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Cantley, Henry Strother

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Faber, George Donison (York)

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (W're'r

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Arrol, Sir William

    Charrington, Spencer

    Finch, George H.

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Bain, Colonel James Robert

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Fison, Frederick William

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christen.

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Flower, Ernest

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, SW

    Beach, Rt. Hn Sir Michael Hicks

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Cranborne, Lord

    Gardner, Ernest

    Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

    Cripps. Charles Alfred

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond.

    Bigwood, James

    Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Bill, Charles

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Davenport, William Bromley

    Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

    Bond, Edward

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm

    Gore, Hn. G R C Ormsby- (Salop

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

    Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tow'r Hamlets

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Bull, William James

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

    Butcher, John George

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Durning,-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Seely, Charles (Hilton, Lincoln

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Mid'x

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Seeley, Maj JEB (Isle of Wight

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Malcolm, Ian

    Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Simeon, Sir Burrington

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

    Smith, Abel H (Hertford, East)

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Maxwell. W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

    Smith, HC (North'mb. Tyn'side

    Hay, Hon. Clause George

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Spear, John Ward

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Milvain, Thomas

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Stauley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Hope, J. F. (Sh'ffield, Brightside

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Hoult, Joseph

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Morgan, David J. (Waltha'stow

    Stroyan, John

    Howard, J. (Midd. Tottenham

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

    Mount, William Arthur

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

    Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Kenyon, Hn. George T. (D'nbigh

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Valentia, Viscount

    Keswick, William

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Kimber, Henry

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert, Torrens

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Knowles, Lees

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

    Penn, John

    Welby, Lt. -Col. A. C.E (Taunton

    Lawson, John Grant

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Whitmore Charles Algernon

    Legge, Colonel Hon. Heneage

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Williams, Rt Hn J Powell-(Birm

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Purvis, Robert

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

    Randles, John S.

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

    Llewellyn, Evan Henry

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Wilson, JW (Worcestershire, N

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H.(Yorks.

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath)

    Long, Rt Hn Walter (Bristol, S.)

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Wylie, Alexander

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Lowe, Francis William

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H.

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Sir William Walrond and

    Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

    Rutherford, John

    Mr. Anstruther.

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

    M'Arthnr, Charles (Liverpool)

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Levy, Maurice

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Dillon, John

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Lloyd-George, David

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Doogan, P. C.

    Lough, Thomas

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Dunn, Sir William

    Lundon, W.

    Bell, Richard

    Edwards, Frank

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Farrell, James Patrick

    MacNell, John Gordon Swift

    Brigg, John

    Ferguson, R. C. Muuro (Leith

    M'Govern, T.

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Furness, Sir Christopher

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Burns, John

    Gilhooly, James

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Caldwell, James

    Grant, Corrie

    Mooney, John J.

    Cameron, Robert

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Murnaghan, George

    Carew, James Laurence

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chnrles Seale-

    Murphy, John

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Norman, Henry

    Crean, Engene

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Norton, Captain Cecil William

    Cremer, William Randall

    Joicey, Sir James

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'r'ry Mid.

    Cullinan, J.

    Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

    Law, Hush Alex. (Donegal, W.

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Delany, William

    Leamy, Edmund

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    O'Malley, William

    742

    743

    O'Mara, James

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    White, Luke (York. E R.)

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

    Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Tenuant, Harold John

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Rea, Russell

    Thomas, David Alfred (M'rthyr

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r

    Woodhouse, Sir JT (Huddersf'd

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Thomson, F.W. (York, W. R.)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Tully, Jasper

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Wallace, Robert

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Roche, John

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Mr. John Wilson (Durham)

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    and Mr. Lloyd Morgan.

    Samuel, S, M. (Whitechapel)

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Weir, James Galloway

    CLASS IV.
    (10.48.) Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect
    of Class IV. of the Civil Services Estimates."
    The House divided:—Ayes, 211; Noes, 119. (Division List No. 377.)

    CLASS V.
    (10.58.) Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the outstanding Resolutions reported in respect
    746
    of Class V. of the Civil Services Estimates."
    The House divided:—Ayes, 221; Noes, 112. (Division List No. 378.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Lambton, Hon Frederick Wm.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Duming-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Allhusen, Augustus Hy. Eden

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Lawson, John Grant

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

    Arrol, Sir William

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Finch, George H.

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Bain, Colonel James Robert

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Llewellyn, Evan Henry

    Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manhe'r

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Balfonr, Rt Hn Gerald W(Leeds

    Fison, Frederick William

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

    Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks

    Flower, Ernest

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W

    Lowe, Francis William

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Bhownaggee, Sir M. M.

    Gardner, Ernest

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Bigwood, James

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond.

    Macartney, Rt. Hn. WG Ellison

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Bond, Edward

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Gordon, Maj Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Gore, Hn G. R C. Ormsby-(Salop

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Bull, William James

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Malcolm, Ian

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Butcher, John George

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

    Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfries-sh.

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Milvain, Thomas

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Charrington, Spencer

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Mount, William Arthur

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Cranborne, Lord

    Hoult, Joseph

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Ceeil

    Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hon. Arthur Fred.

    Penn, John

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Dewar, Sir T.R (Tower Hamlets

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Keswick, William

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Kimber, Henry

    Purvis, Robert

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Knowles, Lees

    Randles, John S.

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Smith, HC (N'rth'mb. Tyneside

    Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Taunt'n

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Smith, James Parker(Lanarks.

    Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. JohnLloyd

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Spear, John Ward

    Whiteley, H (Ashton und. Lyne

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Williams, Rt. Hn J Powell (Birm

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Stroyan, John

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

    Rutherford, John

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Wylie, Alexander

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

    Valentia, Viscount

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Sir William Walrond and

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Malley, William

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Havne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    O'Mara, James

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Partington, Oswald

    Bell, Richard

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Brigg, John

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Priestley, Arthur

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Joicey, Sir James

    Rea, Russell

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

    Jones David Brynmor(Swansea

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Burns, John

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Caldwell, James

    Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

    Roche, John

    Cameron, Robert

    Leamy, Edmund

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Carew, James Laurence

    Levy, Maurice

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Lloyd-George, David

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Lough, Thomas

    Sullivan, Donal

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Lundon, W.

    Tennant, Harold John

    Crean, Eugene

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Cremer, William Randal

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings)

    Cullinan, J.

    M' Govern, T.

    Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gower

    Dalziel, James Henry

    M' Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    M' Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Tully, Jasper

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

    Mansfield. Horace Rendall

    Wallace, Robert

    Delany, William

    Mooney, John J.

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

    Dillon, John

    Murnaghan, George

    Weir, James Galloway

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Murphy, John

    White, Luke (York, E.R.)

    Doogan, P. C.

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Dunn, Sir William

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Edwards, Frank

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

    Farrell, James Patrick

    Norrnan, Henry

    Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'rary Mid

    Flynn, James Christopher

    O'Brien. Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Furness, Sir Christopher

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Mr. Henry J. Wilson and

    Grant, Corrie

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Mr. J. H. Whitley.

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Gardner, Ernest

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.

    Mount, William Arthur

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

    Arrol, Sir William

    Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH'ml'ts

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Gore, Hn. G. R. C Ormsby-(Salop

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

    Norman, Henry

    Bain, Colonel James Robert

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Balcarres, Lord

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

    Greene, Henry D (Shrewsbury

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

    Peel, Hon Wm Robert Wellesley

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Penn, John

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Midd'x

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Bigwood, James

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Purvis, Robert

    Bill, Charles

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Randles, John S.

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Bond, Edward

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Bull, William James

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Hoult, Joseph

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Butcher, John George

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Round, Rt. Hon. James

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

    Jeffreys, Rt. Hn. Arthur Fred.

    Rutherford, John

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Charrington, Spencer

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Keswick, William

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Kimber, Henry

    Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Knowles, Lees

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Lawson, John Grant

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E)

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

    Smith, H. C. (North'b. Tyneside

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)

    Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Spear, John Ward

    Cranborne, Lord

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

    Stanley, Hon. Arthur(Ormskirk

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Llewellyn, Evan Henry

    Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset)

    Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col, A. R.

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Dalkeith, Earl of

    Loder, General Walter Erskine

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

    Strachey, Sir Edward

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Stroyan, John

    Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

    Lowe, Francis William

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Douglas. Rt. Hon. H. Akers-

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Valentia, Viscount

    Duke, Henry Edward

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Faber, Edmund B. (Hants, W.)

    Malcolm, Ian

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Finch, George H.

    Maxwell, W. J H. (Dumfriessh.

    Welby, Lt-Col. A.C. E. (Taunton

    Finlay, Sir Bobert Bannatyne

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Milvain, Thomas

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

    Fison, Frederick William

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Williams, Rt Hn J Powell (Birm.

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Flower, Ernest

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Foster, Philip S.(Warwick, S W.

    Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    748

    749

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh.N.

    Wylie, Alexander

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Wyndham, Rt Hon. George

    Sir William Walrond and

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

    Hayne. Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Partington, Oswald

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Priestley, Arthur

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Rea, Russell

    Brigg, John

    Joicey, Sir James

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Jones, David Brynmor(Swansea

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

    Jones, William(Carnarvonshire

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Burns, John

    Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

    Roche, John

    Caldwell, James

    Leamy, Edmund

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Cameron, Robert

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Levy, Maurice

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Carew, James Laurence

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Lloyd-George, David

    Sullivan, Donal

    Cawley, Frederick

    Lough, Thomas

    Tennant, Harold John

    Channing, Frederick Allston

    Lundon. W.

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings)

    Crean, Eugene

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Thomas, J A (Glarnorgan, Gower

    Cremer, William Randal

    M'Govern, T.

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Cullinan, J.

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Tully, Jasper

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Wallace, Robert

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Mooney, John J.

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Delany, William

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

    Dillon, John

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Weir, James Galloway

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Murnaghan, George

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Doogan, P. C.

    Murphy, John

    Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

    Dunn, Sir William

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Edwards, Frank

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Farrell, James Patrick

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.)

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    O'Brien, Kendal(Tipp'r'ry, Mid

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd

    Flynn, James Christopher

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Furness, Sir Christopher

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Grant, Corrie

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    O'Malley, William

    Mr. John Dewar and

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Mara, James

    Mr. Whitley Thomson.

    Outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class VI. of the Civil Services Estimates, agreed to.
    Outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of Class VII. of the Civil Services Estimates, agreed to.
  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1902–3.
  Outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of the Navy Estimates, agreed to.
  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1902–3.
  Outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of the Army Estimates, agreed to.
  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1902–3.
  Outstanding Resolutions reported in respect of the Revenue Departments Estimates, agreed to.

  NAVY AND ARMY EXPENDITURE, 1900–1901.
  Resolutions reported:—
  Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1901, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—
  (a) That the gross expenditure for certain Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £288,156 6s. 11d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Navy Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £290,951 1s. 4d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule, so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Navy

  751
  Services fell short of the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £2,794 14s. 5d.
  (b.) That the receipts in aid of certain grants for Navy Services fell short of the total estimated receipts by the sum of £41,286 5s. 11d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule, while the receipts in aid of other Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £81,862 6s. 11d., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule, so that the total actual receipts in aid of the grants for Navy Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £40,576, 1s.
  (c.) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are

  SCHEDULE.

  Number of Votes.

  Navy Services, 1900–1901. Votes.

  Gross Expenditure.

  Appropriations in Aid.

  Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  1.

  2.

  3.

  4.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Wages, &c., of Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coast Guard, and Royal Marines

  11,357

  18

  5

  9,056

  6

  3

  2.

  Victualling and Clothing for the Navy

  64,885

  6

  8

  24,127

  18

  4

  3

  Medical Establishments and Services

  7,374

  15

  2

  173

  9

  9

  4

  Martial Law

  3,925

  14

  9

  130

  12

  7

  5

  Educational Services

  927

  8

  11

  595

  10

  2

  6

  Scientific Services

  4,574

  5

  4

  10,060

  0

  1

  7

  Royal Naval Reserves

  49,731

  0

  8

  80

  19

  6

  8

  Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c.—

  Sec. 1

  Personnel

  124

  12

  5

  354

  4

  0

  Sec. 2

  Materiel

  160,198

  4

  2

  15,655

  12

  6

  Sec. 3

  Contract Work

  7,777

  11

  10

  22,123

  12

  6

  9

  Naval Armaments

  190,984

  3

  9

  35,726

  14

  4

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad

  17,206

  5

  9

  1,476

  12

  9

  11

  Miscellaneous Effective Services

  29,188

  11

  3

  l,441

  1

  9

  12

  Admiralty Office

  2,918

  2

  7

  7

  11

  10

  13

  Half-Pay, Reserved and Retired Pay

  16,992

  0

  10

  806

  18

  5

  14

  Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances

  954

  19

  3

  1,277

  5

  9

  15

  Civil Pensions and Gratuities

  3,627

  10

  7

  26

  2

  4

  16

  Additional Naval Force for Service in Australasian Waters

  42

  16

  0

  28

  0

  0

  Amount written off as irrecoverable

  6,315

  19

  11

  288,156

  6

  11

  290,951

  1

  4

  41,286

  5

  11

  81,862

  6

  11

  Net Surplus, £2,794 14 5

  Net Surplus, £40,576 1 0

  Surplus surrendered to the Exchequer £43,370 15 5

  Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1901, and the statement appended thereto, as follows:—

  752
  as follows, viz.: — Total surpluses, £356,223 0s. 10d.; total deficits, £312,852 5s. 5d.; net surplus, £43,370 15s. 5d.
  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer grants for certain Navy Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriations in Aid, in respect of the same Services; and have also temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain grants for Navy Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other grants for Navy Services.
  1. "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
  (a) That the gross expenditure for certain Army Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £5,028,840 19s. 4d., as shown in

  753
  Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Army Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sam of £4,095,960 2s. 10d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule; so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Army Services exceeded the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £932,880 16s. 6d.
  (b) That the receipts in aid of certain Army Services fell short of the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £267,988 18s. 11d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule; while the receipts in aid of other Army Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £1,856,725 18s. 1d., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule; so that the total actual receipts in aid of the grants for Army Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £1,588,73619s. 2d.

  SCHEDULE.

  Number of Vote.

  Army Services, 1900–1901. Votes.

  Gross Expenditure.

  Appropriations in Aid.

  Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  l.

  2.

  3.

  4.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Pay, &c., of Army (General Staff, Regiments. Reserve, and Departments)

  2,330,005

  5

  7

  81,366

  10

  5

  2

  Medical Establishments—Pay, &c.

  285,798

  19

  1

  5,457

  16

  6

  3

  Militia—Pay, Bounty, &c.

  124,344

  10

  4

  3,266

  0

  11

  4

  Yeomanry Cavalry—Pay and Allowances

  36,937

  3

  4

  3

  0

  0

  5

  Volunteer Corps—Pay and Allowances

  59,727

  17

  11

  524

  11

  0

  6

  Transport and Remounts

  2,322,117

  12

  9

  491,791

  3

  4

  7

  Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies

  1,208,700

  8

  5

  613,383

  3

  3

  8

  Clothing Establishments, and Services

  314.612

  4

  7

  74,683

  11

  3

  9

  Warlike and other Stores—Supply and Repair

  1,033,738

  1

  7

  315,653

  10

  2

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Repairs—Cost, including Staff for Engineer Services

  1,062,419

  4

  5

  43,061

  1

  1

  11

  Establishments for Military Education

  3,391

  1

  1

  3,549

  7

  0

  12

  Miscellaneous Effective Services

  33,280

  0

  10

  347,422

  9

  10

  13

  War Office—Salaries and Miscellaneous Charges

  38,984

  7

  9

  951

  12

  8

  14

  Non-effective Charges for Officers, &c.

  198,344

  10

  6

  75,554

  7

  7

  15

  Non-effective Charges for Men, &c.

  64,843

  6

  4

  68,006

  19

  10

  16

  Superannuation, Compensation, and Compassionate Allowances

  2,078

  3

  9

  39

  12

  2

  Balances irrecoverable

  7,418

  3

  11

  5,028,840

  19

  4

  4,095,960

  2

  10

  267,988

  18

  11

  1,856,725

  18

  1

  Add Excess Vote

  100

  0

  0

  4,096,060

  2

  10

  Net Deficit, £932,780 16 6

  Net Surplus, £1,588,736 19 2

  Net Surplus £655,956 2 8

  Resolutions agreed to.
  (c) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz. — Total surpluses, £4,226,776 5s. 7d.; total deficits, £3,570,920 2s. 11d.; net surplus, £655,856 2s. 8d.
  And whereas by a Vote of Parliament during the present session (House of Commons Paper, No. 79, of 1902) a further sum of £100 has been granted for the expenditure of the year 1900–1901, and the appropriation of additional receipts in aid of such expenditure has been sanctioned to the amount of £932,780 16s. 6d.
  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain grants for Army Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other grants for Army Services.
  2. "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."

  WAYS AND MEANS [4TH AUGUST].— REPORT.
  Resolutions reported:—
  1. "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, the sum of £100 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  2. "That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, the sum of £77,527,601 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  Resolutions agreed to.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Austen Chamberlain.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIATION) BILL.
  "To apply certain sums out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the years ending on the 31st day of March, 1901 and 1903, and to appropriate the Supplies granted in this Session of Parliament," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time tomorrow.

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  MR. LOUGHsaid that the Prime Minister had stated this afternoon that it was not usual to treat the Public Works Loans Bill as contentious; but contentious was a very strong word. He was sure, however, that the Secretary to the Treasury would answer a few questions regarding the Bill. He noticed that the amount required this year was £6,000,000, whereas last year it was £7,000,000; and be thought it desirable that before the House was asked to pass the Bill it
  756
  should be afforded some opportunity of judging whether the money previously granted had all been used. Then, again, the loans granted under the Colonial Loans Act were for the first time included. The second part of the Bill dealt with loans which were now declared to be bad debts; and power was sought under the Bill to write them off. That was a matter which required constant attention. There was one loan mentioned in the present Bill, which was granted to Laurence Cosh, and which appeared to be a flagrant example of carelessness on the part of the Commissioners. Cosh was an enterprising young builder in Stepney, and he borrowed, in 1887, the large amount of £12,000 for the erection of dwellings for the labouring classes. The buildings were to cost £19,000. Cosh only paid one instalment, and it was now proposed to write off the remainder as a bad debt. He thought that there ought to be some explanation as to the circumstances in which the loan was granted.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that it was true, as the hon. Gentleman stated, that the amount asked for in the Bill was a million less than the amount asked for last year, but the sum was fixed after communication with the various lending Departments as to the amount which it was expected would be required in the period now about to commence. The hon. Gentleman asked for information as to the amount still in the hands of the Public Works Loans Commissioners. They had about £700,000, but that was only enough for two months, without taking into account any fresh loans that might be granted. The Irish Commissioners had about £60,000 remaining, but that was only sufficient for about two months. If, therefore, Parliament did not pass the present Bill before the Recess, the Commissioners in Great Britain and Ireland would be unable to meet the demands upon them. The colonial loans had nothing to do with the present Bill, and to discuss them would not be in order. The hon. Gentleman also referred to certain bad debts which it was proposed to write off. He quite agreed that the Commissioners should exercise every precaution and every care in making loans. There

  757
  were two loans to Irish railways which it was proposed to write off; and in these cases all the Bill proposed was to make good to the Fund what previous Acts of Parliament had declared should be written off. Then in the case of the Wick Harbour, it was proposed to relieve the trustees of the debt they still owed. A few years ago it was written off as a bad and irrecoverable debt, but it still remained an obligation; and the trustees would be unable to raise money to improve the harbour as long as that obligation existed. It was now proposed to excuse them the debt in order that they might be in a position to develop the harbour, and open up for it a future of great prosperity. As regarded the loan to Cosh, that was a very regrettable case. He could not pretend for one moment that it was satisfactory. In that case the Commissioners lent to a man who had not sufficient financial resources to carry out the task he undertook; and the security in which the loan was granted proved insufficient. He would only beg the House to remember that of all objects for which loans were urgently demanded, there was none more important than the housing of the poor in the congested districts in the great cities of the country. Upwards of £500,000 had been lent for that purpose, and the case referred to by the hon. Gentleman was the only bad debt which had been incurred. In such circles the hon. Gentleman would agree that it could not be said that the Commissioners had been lacking in care or attention. The case mentioned by the hon. Gentleman was the first bad speculation of the Commissioners, and it had received the very careful attention of the Commissioners and the Treasury, with the result that fresh precautions had been taken which it was hoped would make it impossible for such a case to recur. There was no other case in which even the interest was in arrear, and, in the circumstances, he hoped the House would not attach undue importance to a very unfortunate incident. He would be ready to answer further questions in the Committee stage; and he hoped that, in view of the general desire of the House to proceed
  758
  with other business, the Second Reading of the Bill and the Committee stage of the Resolution would be taken.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a second time, and committed for tomorrow.

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS [REMISSION OF DEBTS].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the remission of certain debts due to the Public Works Loan Commissioners and the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland in pursuance of any Act of the present session relating to local loans.
  Resolution to be reported tomorrow.

  MARINE WORKS (IRELAND) [ADVANCES].
  Resolution reported:—
  "That it is expedient to authorise the increase by £100,000 of the amount that may be advanced and raised under The Railways (Ireland) Act, 1896, for enabling the Treasury to make advances for the purpose of Marine Works in Ireland, and the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of certain expenses connected with such works which the General Maintenance Fund is unable to meet, in pursuance of any Act of the present Session to facilitate the execution and maintenance of Marine Works in Ireland."
  Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  MR. MACARTNEYsaid it would perhaps be a convenient moment for him to state the objections he had to the scheme which was founded on the Resolution now before the House. The Bill, which was founded on this Resolution, was one which in scope and object was entirely confined to the congested districts in Ireland, and therein lay the main objection he had to its pur port. The congested districts of Ireland

  759
  had received from the House, with the full support of all parties, a very large measure of attention, and for the last eleven years very considerable grants of public money from Imperial sources had been devoted to those districts. For instance, the Congested Districts Board itself, which was established some twelve years ago for the special protection and advancement of the industries of that part of Ireland, had spent in that time, within those districts, in round figures, a million of money, while the annual expenditure of the Board on the development of estates, etc., was over £10,000, in addition to which Parliament had from time to time devoted further grants for other objects. The grant under the Act of 1889 for the promotion of light railways — which was almost entirely for congested districts — amounted to £600,000. In still more recent time there was a sum of £500,000 under the Act of 1896, and, although that was not entirely a free grant, it went very largely to the development of these districts. Neither he nor any of his colleagues who were associated with him in the view he took on this question had the slightest desire to grudge to those districts what had been done in the past; but they thought the attention of Chief Secretaries had been devoted almost exclusively to the development of these districts, to the exclusion of the necessities which existed in other portions of Ireland which equally required attention, both in the interests of the inhabitants and from the point of view of public advantage. While he was far from saying that there might not be other portions of Ireland outside the congested districts in which there were cases as pressing or as necessitous as the one which he desired on this occasion to bring forward, still there were none which had greater claims on the munificence of the Treasury. In the year which had just passed, on the Dillon Estate alone £20,000 had been spent on draining, fencing, road-making, and outbuildings, and he gathered from the Report of the Congested Districts Board that a further sum of £8,000 was required to complete their operations. He drew special attention to these two sums because they happened to constitute two of the three sums which, in the Bill of 1889, were devoted to the Bann drainage
  760
  scheme, and it seemed to him that if one comparatively small district of Ireland could lay its hands on that amount of money as a free grant, it was not unnatural that those who represented a district which had for years been a heavy sufferer from the Bann drainage scheme should claim the attention of the Chief Secretary and the Irish Government. The scheme was carried out at a total cost of £264,000, of which £155,000 fell upon the occupiers and owners of land in the district. The results of those works were unsatisfactory. He thought that those on behalf of whom he spoke had a peculiar grievance to complain of. The Estimate that was placed before them was largely exceeded by something like 47 per cent., but the works for which the consent of the occupiers and the landowners was obtained were not carried out.
  *MR. SPEAKER: This is a Bill for marine works. The works the right hon. Gentleman is describing are not in the nature of marine works, and it is not competent for the hon. Member to deal with them, because this Vote proposes a certain sum should be voted for marine works, and he is not in order in recommending in detail some other scheme which, I understand, does not comtemplate marine works.
  MR. MACARTNEYsaid that on the Second Reading of this Bill it was stated that he would have an opportunity of stating his case upon a later stage, and he wished to produce other reasons why he considered this grant of money was inexpedient. Upon that occasion he gave way on the distinct understanding that on some future stage he would have an opportunity of stating the grounds of his opposition to this proposal.
  *MR. SPEAKER: I was no party to I any such understanding or arrangement, I and I must simply look at the Bill and the arguments used by the hon. Member and decide whether they are in order.
  MR. MACARTNEYsaid his point was that the proposal of the Government was one which was entirely centred in one particular portion of Ireland, which,

  761
  during the last twelve or fourteen years, had received much attention from those responsible for the administration of the country. The Government had had brought before their notice cases which existed not only in Ulster but in other parts of Ireland, which were as necessitous and as much in need of attention and relief and of free grants from the Treasury as any of the unpopulated parts of the congested districts. None of the proposals contained within the four corners of this Bill were of such a character that the interests of the districts affected would suffer if these proposals were postponed for a year. Those districts had been without this relief up to the present moment, and while he agreed that these proposals might be desirable in the interests of those districts, he did not think they would suffer in any degree by a short postponement. The cases he had in his mind in the North of Ireland affected areas where the inhabitants and occupiers had been suffering serious damage not only to their crops but to their health as well. He felt bound on behalf of those whom he represented to object to a grant of this character which ignored the very pressing grievances of other parts of Ireland, and which devoted the whole measure of this relief to one particular portion of the country which during the last twelve or fourteen years had had benefits showered upon it and had received innumerable tree grants from the British Treasury. As he was not permitted to go into further detail, he did not desire to take up the attention of the House any further, but having stated the broad general line of his case, he trusted his right hon. friend would be able to make some statement which would prevent any further hostile action in regard to this measure.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that, in replying to his right hon. friend, he would endeavour to avoid any controversial matters. He took no exception to the course pursued by his right hon. friend in this matter, because he was only discharging his duty to his constituents by emphasising a demand which had been made upon him by those he represented. He could not pass over in
  762
  silence some of the general arguments used by his right hon. friend. He had stated quite truly that, roughly speaking, this Bill was confined to the congested districts, and he went on to say that considerable grants had in the past been made to these districts from imperial sources. He would point out, however, that the money allocated to the policy inaugurated by the present Prime Minister was almost exclusively what was called Irish money, and with the exception of a relatively small amount it was not money voted by this House. It was true that in the year 1896 a grant was made from the common Exchequer, but these Parliamentary grants when they were made to Ireland had almost always been in the nature of equipoises for some similar benefits on a larger scale allocated to English or Scotch concerns. When his right hon. friend said that the attention of the Government had been confined to the congested districts he should not lose sight of the fact that a sum of £700,000 had been voted by means of the agricultural grant for the whole of Ireland. That was one of those equipoises of which he had spoken. Moreover, the Parliamentary grants made to Ireland had almost always been in the nature of an equipoise. The congested districts, too, were excluded almost entirely from the beneficent action of the new Department of Agriculture. The sum now under consideration was not in any sense a dole; it was an attempt to remove certain sums from the current account of the Congested Districts Board to a capital account; and if the Bill were delayed the West of Ireland fishing industry would suffer. The Bann Drainage Scheme would receive the attention of the Government. The fishing industry of the West of Ireland was advancing, and it would be seriously affected if this-Bill was delayed. It was said that the rating problem was a severe one, but by leaving it a severe one they did not mitigate the problem. Therefore it was not only the congested districts but the whole of Ireland would benefit by these proposals. He did not think he would be justified in elaborating at greater length this question, but he appealed to his right hon. friend to take

  763
  it from him in regard to the scheme in which he was so much interested all that could be done would be done, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would not persist in his endeavour to postpone one measure for Ireland because another measure had some claims upon the attention of the House.
  Question put, and agreed to.

  MARINE WORKS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) in the Chair.]
  Clause 1:—
  MR. POWERcomplained of the hour at which this Bill was being taken. Irish Members were anxious that whatever expenditure was made in this way should be made properly, in order to be of some advantage to their constituencies. With regard to the Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member who represented counties where there were congested districts, he hoped it would not be thought that he objected to this expenditure in their districts. With regard to their fishing industry, they did not ask for generous treatment, but simply to be treated fairly. The fishing industry of Ireland had been largely killed by the jealousy of England, and he contended that some restitution was due on that account. He quite recognised that the money that had been spent on the fishing industry, in the congested districts had been well spent, and he was delighted to hear that this industry had progressed so marvellously; but outside the congested districts there were many cases which deserved some sort of support. He considered this Vote of £100,000 was a small and beggarly sum for this purpose, considering the enormous sums of money which this country got by indirect taxation from the people in those districts. He wished to place one instance before the Chief Secretary. In his own neighbourhood at Tramore, the district was
  764
  prepared to give one-third of the money necessary to erect a pier, and an institution presided over by Mr. Horace Plunkett had promised to also provide one-third of the cost, and they had applied to the Government to make up the remaining one-third. As the local taxation in this district was 7s. 4d. in the £, he thought this offer to provide one-third out of the rates showed that these people were not backward in offering very liberal terms for this improvement. He did not know what the right hon. Gentleman intended to do in this matter, but he hoped he would be able to state that the Government were willing to give some assistance towards the erection of this pier at Tramore.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 1, page 10, to leave out the words congested districts.'"—(Mr. Power.)
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he was almost entitled to gather from some of the first words which fell from the hon. Member that he would anticipate a reply something like that which he had just given to his right hon. friend the Member for South Antrim. This Bill dealt with the congested districts, and it dealt with the West of Ireland. No one who had studied this matter would be prepared to argue that the west coast, which contained the congested districts, stood in as favourable a position in regard to harbours as the east coast. There was no insurmountable difficulties on the east coast for ships to travel, but on the west coast there were many physical obstacles to ships travelling at all, with the result that good lines of steamers were not put on that coast. Therefore, there were some grounds underlying the scheme of this Bill why attention should be given to the west coast, in order to obtain a harbour which would invite steamers to travel along the west coast. The hon. Member by this Amendment invited the Committee to transfer the expenditure of some of this money to the east coast. He thought that proposal would altogether undermine the financial basis of this Bill, and if the Amendment were carried, of course the Bill would be lost. This

  765
  measure was based upon the allocation of this money to congested district counties, where £100,000 had already been found too small for the purpose. He was sure that his hon. friend would not urge them to transfer some of this money for another purpose, which would be an entirely new departure. He was ready to admit that the full benefits of the Act of 1899 had not yet been derived, and he never anticipated that the benefit would be derived immediately. He could not now go into the details of the case which the hon. Member had brought forward, and he should not now be justified in arguing his point at greater length. He hoped the Amendment would not be pressed.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid he was sincerely anxious that this Bill should pass into law, and he did not desire to prolong the discussion at all. He was rather surprised at the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, because he understood that the original scheme was one which did not exclude assistance being given to harbours situated outside the congested districts. That was all they were asking for in this Amendment. The case which his hon. friend mentioned exemplified what he meant. In the case of Tramore, the Government built a pier without consulting local opinion. It was built at the wrong place, and it was badly constructed. It had been swept away, and at present there was no pier at all. The people of the locality had agreed to contribute one-third of the cost of a new pier, the new Department had offered to contribute another third; but the pier could not be constructed, because there was no means of getting the other third. He thought it was a great pity that the original scheme was not adhered to, because it would have enabled them to deal with such cases as that at Tramore. He could not see why the right hon. Gentleman could not have succeeded in obtaining from the Treasury a larger sum of money to enable places outside the congested districts to get the benefit of the Bill. It was quite a fallacy to suppose that the need of harbours was confined to the congested
  766
  districts. It would be quite easy to bring forward a number of cases outside the congested districts where the claims for harbours were almost as great. If it were not for the peculiar circumstances under which they were now discussing the matter, he should feel bound to discuss it at length, and to divide the Committee against the proposal to confine the benefits of the Bill to the congested districts, but if at this time of the session they were to attempt to discuss the Bill in the way it ought to be discussed, and to take into consideration the needs of other places, the passage of the Bill would be absolutely impossible. They were face to face with this position. Were they to sacrifice their right to discuss the questions raised by this Bill, or wore they by discussion to destroy the chance of the Bill passing altogether? He had more than once protested against Irish legislation being presented in this way. The House of Commons had been sitting for seven months, the Government had the largest majority on record, and they had a brand now set of rules devised by the wisest men in the State, and yet the circumstances were such that this Bill could only be passed sub silentio. If his hon. friends would take his advice, they would not prolong the discussion; but a limit must be put to this way of legislating for Ireland. Even at the risk of depriving some sections of the people of the benefits of such a Bill as this, they must in the near future put down their foot and say they would not be parties to Irish legislation being brought forward and pushed through in this way. Having made that protest, he asked his hon. friends not to raise matters of discussion on this Bill, for the sake of the poor people who would be in some small way benefited by the measure.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he did rise to reply to the general criticism of the hon. Member. He had answered it before now. There was an agreement, in so far as they could, to keep the congested districts outside the arena of political controversy. After what the hon. and learned Member had said, he would do all he could to assist the progress of the Bill. He would not move the Amendment which stood on the Paper in his name. The

  767
  whole framework of the Bill was bound up with the financial conditions underlying it, and they could not alter these conditions at the present stage of the session. All the Amendments on the Paper, with the exception of his own, would make considerable change in the financial conditions underlying the Bill.
  MR. POWERbegged leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLmoved an Amendment on Clause 1, with the object of empowering County Councils of the seaboard districts to construct the harbour works and to look after them when constructed.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid that if the hon. Member's proposal were carried out the whole of the expense would fall on the County Councils. This matter had been carefully considered, and the Bill laid down that nothing was to be done except by agreement between the County Council and the Board of Works, and it further laid down that the Board must lease the work to the County Council. Beyond that he could not go without making a fundamental alteration in the Bill. He was not prepared to hand over the money to the County Council, and at the same time to relax the control over the manner in which the work was carried out.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELLasked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 1 agreed to.
  Clause 2:—
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 2, line 19, after '1½ per cent.,' to insert the words 'and not more than 2½ per cent.'"—(Mr. Gilhooly.)
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he answered this by anticipation when he introduced the Bill. In his opinion 1½ per cent, would be ample, but it was just possible that a County Council might wish the Government to co-operate with them in carrying out works of a more ambitious character. He had not in his mind a single case in which this would be proposed, but he felt that it would be unwise to tie up all the possibilities under the Bill. He could not accept the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clauses 2 to 5 agreed to.
  Clause 6:—
  MR. FLAVINsaid he would net move the Amendments of which he had given notice; but he would like to remind the Chief Secretary of certain promises he gave during his trip around the west coast of Ireland in connection with the encouragement of the sea fisheries off the coast of Kerry.
  Clause 6 and remaining Clauses agreed to.
  Bill reported without Amendment.
  MR. WYNDHAMsaid he thought he was justified in asking the House to take the Third Reading now, as the general trend of the discussion appeared to be in that direction.
  Bill read the third time, and passed.

  LANDS VALUATION (SCOTLAND) AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
  As Amended (by the Standing Committee), considered; Bill read the third time, and passed.
  Whereupon Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 28th day of July last, adjourned the House without Question put.
  Adjourned at twenty-five minutes before One o'clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  FLEETWOOD URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
  Read 3a, with the Amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
  LONDON UNITED TRAMWAYS BILL.
  Read 3a, with the Amendments, and passed, and returned to the Commons.

  HASTINGS HARBOUR DISTRICT RAILWAY (EXTENSION OF TIME) BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons, agreed to.
  GREAT NORTHERN AND CITY RAILWAY BILL [H.L.],
  BIRMINGHAM AND MIDLAND TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.],
  DEVONPORT CORPORATION (GENERAL POWERS) BILL [H.L.],
  DEVONPORT CORPORATION (WATER) BILL [H.L.],
  SADDLEWORTH AND SPRINGHEAD TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.],
  YSTRADFELLTE WATER BILL [H.L.],
  WIGAN CORPORATION BILL [H.L.],
  NORTH STAFFORDSHIRE TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.],
  MEXBOROUGH AND SWINTON TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.],
  LIVERPOOL CATHEDRAL BILL [H.L.],
  SWANSEA CORPORATION BILL [H.L.],
  NOTTINGHAM CORPORATION BILL [H.L.],
  MARGATE CORPORATION WATER BILL [H.L.],
  GREAT NORTHERN AND STRAND RAILWAY BILL [H.L.],
  DOVER HARBOUR BILL [H.L.],
  BARROW HAEMATITE STEEL COMPANY, LIMITED, BILL [H.L.],
  MENAI BRIDGE URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [H.L.].

  WHITSTABLE IMPROVEMENT BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons, agreed to, with Amendments; the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL,
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 12) BILL,
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 7) BILL,
  LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL,
  YORK CORPORATION BILL,
  GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY (CRUMLIN VIADUCT) BILL,
  LONDON AND INDIA DOCKS (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL,
  DUBLIN PORT AND DOCKS BOARD BILL,

  EASTBOURNE CORPORATION BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.
  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [H.L.],

  GAS AND WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL [H.L.]
  Commons Amendments considered (according to order), and agreed to.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL [H.L.]
  Commons Amendment considered (according to order), and agreed to.
  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H.L.]
  Commons Amendment considered (according to order), and agreed to.
  EDINBURGH AND LEITH CORPORATIONS GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; read 1a, to be printed, and (pursuant to the Private Legislation Procedure (Scotland) Act, 1899) deemed to have been read 2a and reported from the Committee; and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next. (No. 173.)
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  SECONDARY EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  Report for the year 1902, by Sir Henry Craik, K.C.B.
  FRANCE, No. 1 (1902).
  Awards given by Baron Lambermont in the cases of the Waima incident and of the "Sergent Malamine" (Brussels 15th July, 1902).
  Forty-sixth Report of the Commissioners of Customs, for the year ended 31st March, 1902.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD.
  Thirty-first Annual Report, 1901–1902.
  BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND MARRIAGES (ENGLAND).
  Sixty-fourth Annual Report of the Registrar-General of Births, Deaths, and Marriages in England (1901).
  MINES AND QUARRIES (GENERAL REPORT AND STATISTICS FOR 1901: PART II., LABOUR).
  General Report and statistics relating to persons employed and accidents at mines and quarries in the United Kingdom, and to the enforcement of the Mines and Quarries Acts.
  RAILWAY ACCIDENTS.
  Returns of accidents and casualties as reported to the Board of Trade by the several railway companies in the United Kingdom during the three months ended 31st March, 1902, in pursuance of the Regulation of Railways Act (1871), 34th and 35th Victoria, chap. 78; together with reports of the inspecting officers and sub inspectors of the Railway Department to the Board of Trade upon certain accidents which were inquired into.
  UNIVERSITY EDUCATION IN IRELAND (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  Third Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the present conditions of the higher, general, and technical education available outside Trinity College, Dublin, together with Appendix (Minutes of Evidence taken in April, May, and June, 1902).
  QUEEN'S COLLEGE, CORK.
  Annual Report of the President, for the Session 1901–1902.
  EDUCATION COMMISSIONERS (IRELAND).
  Annual Report for the year 1901.
  MARRIAGES, BIRTHS, AND DEATHS (IRELAND).
  Thirty-eighth Annual Report of the Registrar-General for the year 1901.
  INDIA (RAILWAYS).
  Administration Report on the railways-in India for the year 1901.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1894.
  Return of all British ships ordered by the Board of Trade or its officers, during the period from 1st July, 1901, to 30th June, 1902, to be provisionally detained as unsafe by reason of the defective condition of their hulls, equipments, or machinery, or by reason of overloading or improper loading, in pursuance of the provisions of Section 459 of the Act, giving the names of the owners of those ships which have been dismantled, broken up, or converted into hulks, etc.; also of all foreign ships ordered to be provisionally detained during the same period as unsafe by reason of overloading or improper loading, in pursuance of the provisions of Section 462 of the same Act; together with summaries showing respectively the total number of ships ordered to be detained as unsafe, from 1st July, 1901, to 30th June, 1902, and since the 1st October, 1876, distinguishing between those cases in which the ships were found safe or unsafe (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper [Cd. 734.]).
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  FORESHORES.
  Treasury Minute, dated 1st August, 1902, directing the application of moneys received by the Board of Trade in the year ended 31st March, 1902, in respect of the right and interests of the Crown in the foreshores of the United Kingdom: Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  STANDING ORDERS.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of MORLEY): My Lords, I have given notice to move on Thursday the usual Amendments to the Standing-Orders. Among them is a very important Amendment, relating to the housing of the working classes, but I have decided not to move that Amendment on Thursday, on the ground that the House has not yet had sufficient opportunity of considering the Report of the Joint Committee on that very important subject.

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  Standing Orders Nos. 39 and 45 to be considered on Thursday next, in order to their being suspended for that day and Friday next.

  THE CORONATION — ACCOMMODATION FOR PEERS. &c.
  EARL CARRINGTON: I beg to ask the Lord Chancellor what arrangements, if any, have been made for the convenience of Peers attending the Coronation, with regard to luncheon and the parking of carriages, in order to facilitate their return home after the ceremony.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): I am afraid I am not in a position to answer exactly at present, though I have interviewed the Chief Commissioner of Police. I understand, however, that carriages for the West door of Westminster Abbey will have to park in some place whence they could reach that door at the end of the ceremony. Those with tickets for the Poet's Corner will park outside this House. I will, however, obtain exact information by Thursday. With reference to the crossing of Old Palace Yard by the temporary covered way, I understand that there will be no difficulty, because the police will recognise Peers by their robes.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY: Will that apply also to Peeresses and their daughters and sons?
  THE EARL OF HALSBURY: Certainly, so I understand.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY: If Peers come to the luncheon, and cannot get away, they will be stranded, in which case the last stage of the Peer will be worse than the first.
  LORD GLENESK: I understood that the great advantage of lunching at the House was not the luncheon itself, but the facility it afforded, in connection with a carriage, of leaving the neighbourhood in comfort. If I attempt to drive home direct from the Abbey I may have to wait in the building all day before my carriage comes up. There is no escape by way of the West door. The wearing of robes would prevent that.
  THE EARL OF HALSBURY: Pears who have determined to take lunch at the House can get a distinguishing rosette, which will enable their coachmen to park their carriages near the House.
  EARL CARRINGTON: I hope it will be understood that the old Committee no longer exists, and that, therefore, neither Lord James, Lord Hardwicke, nor myself are in any way responsible for luncheons or carriages.
  THE EARL OF HALSBURY: I understood from the police authorities that Earl Carrington was going to provide the rosettes to distinguish the coachmen.
  EARL CARRINGTON: That is why I made my remark just now. We have nothing to do with the luncheon, or the parking of the carriages, or the rosettes.

  ISLE OF MAN (CUSTOMS) BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (The Duke of DEVONSHIRE): The customs duties of the Isle of Man are fixed subject to confirmation by Parliament. This Bill provides that the additional duties of Customs on tobacco, tea, and spirits removed or imported into the Isle of Man imposed by Section 1 of the Isle of Man (Customs) Act, 1900, and the additional duty on ale and beer removed or imported into the Isle of Man imposed by the second paragraph of Section 2 of that Act shall continue to be charged, levied, and paid as from the 1st day of August, 1902, until the 1st day of August, 1903.
  Bill read 2a (according to order). Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

  PACIFIC CABLE BILL.
  [SECOND READING.]
  Order of the day for the Second Reading read.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (The Earl of ONSLOW): This is a small Bill, which is necessary to substitute the

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  Government of the Commonwealth of Australia for the Governments of the States of New South Wales, Queensland, and Victoria in the Pacific Cable Act, 1901.
  Bill read 2a (according to order), and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Thursday next.

  GAS REGULATION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for the regulation of the supply of writer gas and other poisonous gases—was presented by the Earl of Dudley; read 1a and to be printed. (No. 172.)

  ATLANTIC PASSENGER SERVICE—OFFER OF THE CANADIAN PACIFIC RAILWAY—IRISH TERMINAL PORT.
  *LORD KILLANIN: My Lords, I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information as to the reported offer of the Canadian Pacific Railway to subsidise a fast passenger service across the Atlantic; and whether His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of establishing a terminal port for such a service on the West Coast of Ireland. In asking this Question, I should like, with the permission of the House and with that kind indulgence which your Lordships always extend to a new Member, to make a few remarks, as the subject-matter of the Question raises considerations of great importance and of great interest, not only to this country and to Ireland, but also to the whole Empire. And, indeed, I am very conscious that it would probably have better become some more experienced Member of your Lordships' House to introduce a topic of such magnitude; but the connection of the subject with Ireland, and my own connection with that country, must be my excuse for doing so. I thought it my duty not to let an occasion such as this pass by, when public attention is so concentrated on this important subject, without at any rate doing my best to draw attention to the question, and especially to one aspect of it which, in my opinion, should very deeply concern the country I come from.
  My Question to the noble Earl the Under Secretary for the Colonies naturally divides itself into two
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  parts. Firstly, I ask whether he has any information as to the reported offer of the Canadian Pacific Railway Company to subsidise a fast passenger service across the Atlantic, and I have no doubt that the House will be anxious to hear what the noble Earl has to say on that matter. It is reported in the newspapers that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company have agreed to give a large subsidy towards assisting the establishment and working of a fast passenger service between this country and our great dominion at the other side of the Atlantic. The terminal port on this side of the Atlantic has not, as far as I know, been decided upon; but, on the other side, I understand the port is to be Halifax in the winter months and Quebec in the summer months. In addition to the fast passenger service, I understand that the Canadian Pacific Railway Company have offered to subsidise a slower service for freight purposes. I draw attention to the two classes of service because, in the first place, I notice that certain important bodies, like the Board of Trade at Montreal and others in this country, have highly approved of the idea of subsidising a passenger service, but have not approved of subsidising a freight service; and, in the second place, because this distinction has a very, important bearing on the second half of my Question, for, while I fully recognise the practical difficulty of a freight service starting from the West of Ireland, I hope to show that a port in that part of Ireland would be the very best terminal port for a fast passenger service. In connection with this important offer, I am sure your Lordships recognise how absolutely essential it is, with a view to the consolidation of the Empire, that there should be the very best service between this country and Canada, that it should be the fastest possible service, that it should be frequent, that it should be in British hands and under Admiralty control, capable of being used in time of war, and that it should start from a British port on this side of the Atlantic and arrive at a British port on the other. It must have struck your Lordships as somewhat strange, and as showing that there was something out

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  of gear in the communications of the Empire, that the Governor General of Canada, on returning the other day to the Dominion, had, for very practical reasons, to go to New York in order to get to Quebec, although Canada is much nearer to this country than the States. Further, if, as a certain triumphal arch in this city has never ceased to proclaim, amidst other kaleidoscopic changes, Canada is to be the granary of this country; if the cables that exist in the Northern Atlantic, and are our means of communication with Canada, and thence with Australia, New Zealand, and the East, are to be protected, if our traffic in the Northern Atlantic is to be preserved in time of war, and if the strategical positions of Ireland on this side of the Atlantic and of Newfoundland on the other are to be borne in mind, I believe it is obvious that the power and prestige of England in the Northern Atlantic must be maintained by every means possible. I, therefore, look forward with interest to any information which the noble Earl the Under Secretary can give the House with reference to this part of the Question, and I venture to hope, if he is able to state the attitude of the Government towards this important proposal, that it will be of a favourable nature.
  I now turn to the second part of my Question—whether His Majesty's Government will consider the advisability of establishing a terminal port for such a service on the West Coast of Ireland. In making this suggestion I am not making a new suggestion. It was actually tried some forty years ago, and the experiment was extremely successful while it lasted, and it only failed on account of a certain guarantee of the Government of the day not being carried out. I am perfectly well aware that it is no good making this suggestion unless it commends itself to the purely business instincts of the commercial world, and I venture to think it does, and that it would be likely to be a commercial success. If there is to be a fast passenger service across the Northern Atlantic, and if it is to be the fastest possible service, it is obvious that it would have a great advantage as such if it started from the nearest port in this kingdom to Canada, and I say that a port on the West coast
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  of Ireland would be clearly much nearer than any port that could be chosen in this country. Galway, for example, is in direct and straight relationship with Halifax and Quebec on the other side of the Atlantic. Not alone do I say it would be the fastest route because it would be the shortest in geographical distance; there are other reasons which would make it the fastest. A steamer leaving Liverpool or any port on the Western side of this country has to go down the Channel, and the delays caused thereby are well known. The Channel is liable to thick fogs, and is crowded with other Transatlantic liners, coasting steamers, fishing boats, and yachts, and it is well-known that Transatlantic liners cannot go at their proper speed till they have got completely clear of the Irish Channel and St. George's Channel. As it is, even going at a slow rate of speed, collisions take place; and regulations have actually been laid down to prevent Atlantic liners going their full speed. Compare with that a steamer starting from a port on the West coast of Ireland. Why, in a few minutes it would be right out in the open Atlantic, directly facing Canada, and 600 miles to the West of London. That is the second reason why I say that a Transatlantic liner starting from the West of Ireland would be fastest, because it would not suffer from the Channel navigation disadvantages, which cause delay in the case of a steamer starting from the West coast of England. There is a third reason why the speed of a liner leaving a port on the West coast of Ireland would be greater. If such a fast passenger service left Liverpool, must there not be a port of call in Ireland? It would be preposterous and monstrous for it to pass Ireland without landing and taking up her passengers and mails. If, too, you are going to subsidise this line, Ireland would contribute her share of the subsidy; and, therefore, for these reasons, it the line started in England there would have to be a port of call in Ireland, which would be the cause of considerable delay—a delay on occasions, owing to bad weather, of quite threequarters of a day. I contend, therefore, that this would be the fastest route—firstly—because the distance is the shortest; secondly, because the fogs and traffic of the Channel

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  would be avoided; and thirdly, because there would be no necessity for a port of call in Ireland. I believe that such a line would be a great commercial success, and that it would easily win the record. A steamer starting from the West of Ireland would be in Halifax thirty hours before a steamer leaving Liverpool, and this service, would, therefore, attract the passenger traffic, not only of this country, but also of Europe, and the passenger and mail traffic both of Canada and of the United States. It is well-known that in the case of Transatlantic liners it is the record that teils, and that passengers are attracted to the service holding the record. At this moment I believe the record rests with the German ships; but I have no doubt that if this country availed itself of the geographical advantages of Ireland the record could be won back to the British flag, and it would be an invincible one.
  There is one other point I should like to refer to in favour of this scheme. I believe that if the scheme were carried out it would not only be a commercial success, but would go a long way towards regenerating Ireland, and giving her new life and new interests, and that with results most beneficial, not only to Ireland, but to England, and to the whole Empire. I think that because it would bring Ireland into the Empire, of which she hears so much but sees so little. What Ireland largely suffers from, in my humble judgment, is being, so to speak, out of the Empire, out of the life, and movement, and progress of the world. In the march of events of modern civilisation Ireland suffers from being placed at a geographical disadvantage. She is a remote and poor island, and in her position, separated from the rest of the world, she is neither in the New World nor in the Old World. She has always seemed to me, in matters connected with the commerce and life of the world, to lie like a derelict in the Atlantic ocean, while all the trade and business of the world passes her shores and avoids her, and while even her own sons have to flee from her abandoned shores as though they were escaping from a sinking vessel. Isolated and insulated to a degree, there is, then, nothing left for us to do in Ireland but to brood over our local troubles, to
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  exaggerate and magnify them into great national questions, and we all are, in consequence, the easy prey of any local excitement or cry of the moment. I believe that here is a great opportunity, worthy of the serious attention of the Government, of remedying that state of affairs.
  And I contend that Ireland has a right to be considered in the matter. Ireland pays her full share—some of us. including myself, consider that she pays more than her full share—towards the expenses of the Empire, but she alone of all its members feels she gets no advantage from the Empire—she has no trade to protect—she alone sees no return for the money she contributes and for the blood of her sons so willingly shed in defence of that Empire. She feels that she gets her full share of the kicks, but nothing else. I, therefore, suggest that, in considering the question of the organisation and development of the Empire, Ireland should not be left entirely out in the cold and treated as non-existent, but should be made to share in the prosperity as well as in the adversity of the Empire. If such a project as I have referred to were carried out it would bring Ireland into the swim of the Empire; it would bring her into the thoroughfare of the world; it would give her a commercial status and position which she has not enjoyed for generations; it would raise her eyes to, and inspire her with hope for, the future, and prevent her from always dwelling on the sad memories of the past; it would create a new Ireland, with new ideas, now life, and new enterprise; it would lead to greater prosperity—and whatever tends to make Ireland prosperous I believe tends to make her a component and contented part, both in feeling and in material interest, of the Empire. Disloyalty to the Crown and Empire in Ireland is not a fixed principle; it is not a political dogma. Disloyalty to the Empire in Ireland is a dislike, or perhaps I should say an indifference, to a thing which, in so far as it is a burden, the Irish people feel they do their part in carrying, but which, in so far as it is an advantage and a glory, they have very little means of sharing in or witnessing. If you could associate the interests

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  of Ireland somewhat with the interests of this country, you would find that the feelings of the two countries would not be so opposed. I therefore advocate this question, not only believing in its commercial value, but believing also in its Imperial importance; for, after all, what would help more to the solidarity of the Empire at this moment than to do something which would bring Ireland into harmony with the Empire and make her interested in its advantages and success? It is the bond of mutual interest that binds the colonies to the mother country. Would it not be worth while to seek for some mutual interest that might bind the two sister islands here? I believe this is a great opportunity of doing something in that direction, and that if such a scheme were carried out it would be an act of the very highest statesmanship, because it would go a long way towards not only consolidating an Empire, but also towards uniting a Kingdom.
  LORD CLONBROCK: I wish to say a few words in support of the appeal of my noble friend, and to express the hope that the question of the establishment of a terminal port on the West coast of Ireland may seriously engage the attention of His Majesty's Government. My noble friend lives on the coast of Galway, and is therefore fully aware of the effect of a Westerly gale from the Atlantic; and it is a very serious matter that for so long a distance along the West coast of Ireland there is no place to which a vessel can run for safety. I hope that this line of steamers may be established, because I believe in the advantages which would be deprived from it, not only by Ireland, but by the Empire. Whatever is done, however, I trust that the question of a harbour of refuge in the West of Ireland will receive the consideration of the Government.
  THE EARL OF ONSLOW: The noble Lord who asked this Question was good enough to say that he awaited my reply with much interest, but I am afraid he is doomed to some disappointment. I hope that in days to come there will be others who will reply to Questions like these connected with our colonies. A few moments ago I saw the noble Lord the High Commissioner for Canada in the
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  House, and I think that, if it had been in accordance with Parliamentary practice, this Question could more properly have been addressed to him, because, so far as His Majesty's Government are aware, there is no official communication as to any negotiations which are going on between the Canadian Pacific Railway Company and the Government of Canada. They have reason to believe that these negotiations are in progress, but what the nature of them is, or whether they are likely to lead to a satisfactory conclusion, the Government are in complete ignorance. I can only say that, as far as the general question is concerned, naturally His Majesty's Government look with favour on the establishment of a fast service between the United Kingdom and any part of the Dominion; but this particular question is one which affects the Government of the Dominion and the Canadian Pacific Company. I am afraid that I have no information to give to the noble Lord. The second part of the Question put to me was whether, in the event of such a service being established, the Government would take into consideration the claims of the West coast of Ireland, more particularly Galway. No doubt these claims will be taken into consideration. But I believe that there are other ports of the United Kingdom which claim equal consideration. If the noble Lord and others interested in other ports in Ireland—Bantry Bay in particular—and those interested in Liverpool, Southampton, and other places desirous of urging the respective claims of different ports as a port of departure from this country care to come together, the Government will be glad to form a ring round and see a fair fight out.

  HOUSE OF LORDS OFFICES COMMITTEE.
  Second Report from the Select Committee made; to be printed; and to be considered on Thursday next. (No. 174.)
  House adjourned at five minutes past Five o'clock to Thursday next, Four o'clock.