Sitting of 4 August 1902

Preamble
The House met at Two of the clock.
UNOPPOSED PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  DUBLIN PORT AND DOCKS BOARD BILL.
  Lords Amendments, in pursuance of the Order of the House [29th July], considered, and agreed to.
  LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL.
  Lords Amendments, in pursuance of the Order of the House [29th July], considered, and agreed to.
  WIGAN CORPORATION BILL [LORDS].
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  CHARING CROSS, EUSTON, AND HAMP STEAD RAILWAY (CONSOLIDATED) BILL [LORDS].
  As amended, to he considered tomorrow.

  DEVONPORT CORPORATION (WATER) BILL [LORDS].
  As amended, considered; Clauses added; Amendments made.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill he now read the third time.—(Mr. Caldwell)
  (Prince of Wales's consent signified), Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  SADDLEWORTH AND SPRINGHEAD TRAMWAYS BILL [LORDS].
  As amended, considered; Amendments made.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(Mr. Caldwell)
  Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  YSTRADFELLTE WATER BILL [LORDS].
  As amended, considered.
  Ordered, That Standing Orders Nos. 223 and 243 be suspended, and that the Bill be now read the third time.—(Mr. Caldwell)
  (King's Consent signified), Bill accordingly read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  EDINBURGH AND LEITH CORPORA TIONS GAS ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
  Considered; read the third time, and passed.
  GREENOCK AND PORT GLASGOW TRAMWAYS (EXTENSION) ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL [LORDS].
  Read a second time; to be considered tomorrow.
PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions against: From Bristol; Plymouth; Burnley; Barnoldswick; and Carlisle; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES) BILL.
  Petitions for alteration: From Steep; and Raughton Head; to lie upon the Table.
  LONDON ELECTIONS BILL.
  Petition from Bethnal Green, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  VACCINATION PROSECUTIONS BILL.
  Petition from Burnley, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  QUEEN'S COLLEGE (CORK).
  Copy presented, of Report of the President for the Session 1901–2, with Appendices [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Annual Report of the Commissioners of Education in Ireland for the year 1901 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  MARRIAGES, BIRTHS, AND DEATHS (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Thirty-eighth Annual Report of the Registrar General, being for the year 1901 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  MAINTENANCE OF ROADS IN RURAL DISTRICTS OF ADMINISTRATIVE COUNTIES IN IRELAND.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 24th April; Mr. Kennedy]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 324]
  CUSTOMS.
  Copy presented, of Forty-sixth Report of the Commissioners of Customs for the year ended 31st March, 1902 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  FORESHORES.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 1st August, 1902, directing the application of moneys received by the Board of Trade in the year ended 31st March, 1902, in respect of the rights and interests of the Crown in the Foreshores of the United Kingdom [by Act]; lie upon the Table.
  MINES AND QUARRIES.
  Copy presented, of General Report and Statistics for the year 1901; Part II., Labour; General Report and Statistics relating to persons employed and Accidents at Mines and Quarries in the United Kingdom, and to the enforcement of the Mines and Quarries Acts [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  UNIVERSITY EDUCATION IN IRELAND.
  Copy presented, of Third Report of the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the present conditions of the higher, general, and technical education available in Ireland outside Trinity College, Dublin, together with Appendix (Minutes of Evidence taken in April, May, and June, 1902) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BIRTHS, DEATHS, AND MARRIAGES (ENGLAND).
  Copy presented, of Sixty - fourth Annual Report of the Registrar General, 1901 [by Command]; to lie upon the the Table.
  Copy presented, of Thirty-first Annual Report of the Local Government Board, 190– [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  FRANCE (No. 1, 1902).
  Copy presented, of Awards given by Baron Lambermont in the cases of the Waima Incident and of the "Sergent Malamine" [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS CIRCULATED WITH THE VOTES.

  Madras Land Revenue—Default Sales— Remissions.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that, for the eleven years from 1879–80 to 1889–90 inclusive, there were sold by auction by the Indian Government in the Madras Presidency, in default of payment of land revenue, 1,963,364 acres of land held by 840,713 defaulters, as well as personal property amounting in value to

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  2,965,081 rupees (£197,672); and, in view of the fact that out of 1,963,364 acres of land put up for auction only 779,142 acres were sold, will he say how the remaining 1,184,222 acres which were bought in by the Government for want of bidders have been dealt with.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) I am aware of the figures. The majority of the sales occurred in the first three years of the period, and were due to the exceptional circumstances created by the great drought of 1876–8. Since its effects have disappeared from the Presidency, the sales for arrears of revenue on a total acreage of about 22,000,000 acres have averaged less than 50,000 acres a year. The land bought in by Government for want of ladders is ordinarily re-allotted to cultivators on application. Much of it is of the poorest quality, and is in demand only in years exceptionally favourable to temporary extensions of cultivation.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India, in view of the fact that of the 2,306,460 acres of land which were put up for auction by the Indian Government in the Madras Presidency in default of payment of Land Revenue during the twenty-one years ending 30th June, 1900, the average holding of each defaulter was about 2½ acres, can he state the average amount due from each defaulter, and the total amount of remissions during the same period.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.)The returns do not enable me to give the information asked for in the first part of the Question for any years preceding 1887. For the period 1887–1900 the amount due by each defaulter whose land was put up for auction averaged Rs.15.89. In the twenty-one years ending 1900 the remissions of land revenue in the ryotwari districts in Madras amounted to 282 lacs of rupees.

  Indian Famines— Proposals of the Famine Union.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has yet received from the Government of India a Report on the proposals placed before him by the Famine Union, urging that
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  a local inquiry should be made in typical villages relative to the condition of the ryots; and, if not, will he state when he expects to receive the Report.
  (Answered by Secretary Lord George Hamilton.) No Report on the subject has reached me yet, and I am unable to say when I shall receive one.

  Home Office Committee on Notification of Accidents.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Departmental Committee on the Notification of Accidents have yet reported to him; and, if so, whether they have made any recommendation which will have the effect of distinguishing in the statistics of mining accidents between those occurring to male persons under sixteen years and under twenty or twenty-one years of age.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Ritchie.) The Committee has not yet reported. I understand that it will not conclude its inquiry until the Autumn.

  Insanitary Workshops in Scotland.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to a circular, issued by the Scottish Operative Tailors' and Tailoresses' Association, relative to the effects to health arising from employment in pit or underground workshops in Scotland; and will he say what action he proposes to take in the matter.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Ritchie.) The hon. Member has kindly sent me a copy of the circular referred to in his Question. It is a paper which was apparently printed two years ago, but which was not communicated either to the Home Office or to the factory inspectors. Since that time the law with regard to insanitary workshops has been considerably strengthened by the Factory Act of last session, and I am informed that several underground workshops in Glasgow have been closed during the last two years. I am not prepared at the present time to propose any further amendment of the law; but if any cases of underground workshops which

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  cause injury to health are brought to the notice of the inspectors of factories they will do their best to deal with them under their existing powers or to put the local authorities in motion.

  Amendments of the Betting Acts.
  MR. YOXALL: To ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether the Government intend to act upon the judicial opinion expressed in the case of Regina v. Humphries, 2nd April, 1898, as to the need for legislation, and upon the Report of the Lords' Select Committee on Betting, which recommends that amendments in the law be made to remedy the uncertainty as to what constitutes a place within the meaning of the Betting Acts.
  (Ansnered by Mr. Secretary Ritche.) I am not in a position to promise legislation on this subject.

  Merthyr Electric Tramway Extension.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if, before giving any further extension of time to the Merthyr Electric Tramway Company in which to complete their system between Cefn and Merthyr, he will consult the Councils of the Merthyr Tydvil Urban District and Vaynor and Penderyn Rural Districts.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) It is the practice of the Board of Trade to consult the local authorities in these cases and this will no doubt be done before a further extension of time is given to this company.

  Electric Tramways—Overhead Trolly System—Prevention of Accidents.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that His Majesty's Consul at Prague, in his Report just issued on the trade of Bohemia for the year 1901, calls attention to an invention for protection against accidents on electric tramway systems where the overhead trolly system is in use; and will he consider the expediency of calling the attention of electric tramway authorities to this invention by circular or otherwise.
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  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The attention of the Board's electrical adviser has been called to the Report in question. He informs me that several inventions of the kind referred to have been brought to his notice, but that he has seen none which can be considered better than the system of guard wires, the provision of which is at present required in this country where the presence of telegraph or telephone wires: is likely to involve risk of accidents.

  Copenhagen Fishery Conference.
  MR. HARMSWORTH: To ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can state in detail what are the subjects to be considered by the Fishery Conference to be held in Copenhagen.
  (Answered by Mr. Gerald Balfour.) The Fishery Conference at Copenhagen has concluded its sittings. I have not yet received a Report of the proceedings from the British delegates.

  Scottish Crofter Tenants.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Lord Advocate whether he is aware that crofter tenants who held their crofts on a yearly tenancy at the passing of the Crofters Act secured fixity of tenure, and have had their rents largely reduced and arrears cancelled, whilst those tenants who held under lease have secured none of these statutory advantages; and will he state what steps he proposes to take to deal with these crofter tenants in the crofting counties of the Highlands and Islands of Scotland.
  (Answered by Mr. Graham Murray.) I have nothing to add to the various answers already given to the hon. Member on this subject.

  Scottish Marine Works.
  MR. WEIR: To ask the Lord Advocate whether, with a view to facilitate the construction, improvement, and maintenance of marine works in Scotland, he will consider the expediency of introducing a Bill similar to the Marine Works (Ireland) Bill now before the House.
  (Answered by Mr. Graham Murray.) The Secretary for Scotland cannot at present make any engagement to introduce a Bill as the hon. Member suggests.

  Income Tax—Assessment on Income not Actually Received.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if it is customary to charge income tax on a source of income that has not been received within the year of assessment, and which, owing to the possibilities of commercial speculation, may never be paid; and will he say in what way income tax so paid could be recovered in the event of an undertaking failing to fulfil its obligations.
  (Answered by Sir Michael Hicks Beach.)Speaking generally, income tax is by law chargeable upon income which arises or accrues during the year of assessment, even though it be not actually received within that period. If it can afterwards be shown that the income has not been, and will not be received, the assessment would be discharged, and any tax paid in respect of it would be refunded.

  Income Tax Assessment Appeals— Birmingham Case
  MR. LOWETo ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the case of a Birmingham firm of manufacturers who have been refused the right of appeal against an assessment to income tax by the local commissioners, on the ground that these manufacturers had not made a formal return of profits; and, seeing that they had verbally communicated to the Inland Revenue officials the fact that they had made a loss instead of any profits for several years past, will he state why the customary appeal was not allowed in this case; and whether he proposes to take any steps in the matter.
  (Answered by Sir Michael Hicks Beach.) The attention of the Board of Inland Revenue has been called to this case, and they are in communication with the local commissioners in regard to it. Owing, however, to the local commissioners having dispersed for the summer, a conference on the subject that it is proposed to hold cannot take place until September.

  Gun and Game Licences.
  MR. CLAUDE HAYHoxton): To ask Mr. Chancellor of the
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  Exchequer whether, with the view of ascertaining if larger sums would be realised by the collection by the county authorities of the gun and game licences, he will consider the expediency of transferring to the County Councils the powers of collecting the duties specified in Schedule 1 of the Local Government Act, 1888, as provided in Section 20 (3) of that Act.
  (Answered by Sir Michael hicks Beach.) It is by no means certain that collection by the local authorities would increase the yield of the gun and game licence duties, and I doubt if the County Councils would care to try the experiment, especially as the cost of collection at present falls on the Exchequer. The change would raise various complicated questions which could only be decided in connection with a general resettlement of local taxation.

  Banbridge (Down) Postmastership.
  MR. DEVLIN: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether any appointment has yet been made to the postmastership of Banbridge, County Down, and, if not, whether he will undertake that the person appointed shall be a person professing the religious faith of the majority of the Irish people.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) No appointment has yet been made. The Postmaster General does not intend to make any inquiry as to the religious beliefs of the several candidates.

  Letter Lost in Course of Post—Claim of Mr. Sheehan.
  MR. POWER: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he will state the result of the further search he promised to have made to recover a manuscript of Mr. Sheehan, Ballyhussa, County Waterford, forwarded by post to Messers Benziger Brothers, Publishers, New York; is the Postmaster General aware that the publishers had purchased the manuscript, and, if it is not found, will the postal authorities, considering the loss Mr. Sheehan has sustained, consider the question of compensating him.

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  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) After repeated search no trace of the manuscript can be found in the Post Office; but there is no proof that it was ever in the hands of, or lost by, the Postmaster General's officers; and he is unable to grant compensation in such circumstances.

  Central Telegraph Office Appointments.
  MR. CLAUDE HAY: To ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether the number of appointments above £160 in the Central Telegraph Office bears the same relation to the number of appointments below that salary, as during the years when the circular was issued promising a prospect of £190; and whether he will give the number of staff above £160, and the number below £160, for each of the twenty years, 1882 to 1902, inclusive.
  (Answered by Mr. Austen Chamberlain.) The hon. Member was informed on the 2nd of June † of the present proportion of appointments above £160 per annum to those below £160 as compared with the proportion existing in 1892—or shortly after the time when the Circular referred to was discontinued. The corresponding figures for the year 1882 are one appointment above £160 to 5·3 appointments below. But the Postmaster General thinks that no useful purpose would be served by ascertaining the relative numbers during each of the last twenty years. The preparation of such a Return would entail considerable labour upon his officers at a time when there is exceptional pressure of business.

  Dog Licences.
  MR. YOXALL: To ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether any further consideration than the reply of the Board to a correspondent, dated 25th May, 1901, has been given to the suggestion that dog licences should only be issued in respect of dogs wearing a collar with a metal disc attached bearing a registered number by which the identity and ownership of a dog could be traced.
  (Answered by Mr. Hanbury.) The suggestion made by the correspondent to
  † See (4) Debates, cviii., 1096.
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  which the hon. Member refers has not been lost sight of. I agree in the object which he has in view, viz., that it is desirable that there should be better means than exist at present for the identification of dogs with their owners, but I do not think that it would be practicable to adopt the particular proposal made, if only because it might easily lead to the further evasion of the licence duties. The wearing of a collar with the name and address of the owner is probably as effective a means of identification as any, and I hope to make proposals in this direction.

  Naval Ordnance Depots—Pay of Skilled Labourers.
  MR. REGINALD LUCAS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is intended that the wages of skilled labourers in his Majesty's Gun Wharf should be raised by one shilling as in the case of unskilled labourers.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forester.) No change in the rates of pay of skilled labourers at the Naval Ordnance Depôts is at present in contemplation.

  Government Dockyards—Pay of Hired Writers.
  MR. REGINALD LUCAS: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether it is intended to give a rise of pay under certain conditions to hired writers in His Majesty's dockyards after the maximum age limit is reached for competition to first class writers.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forester.) The question of allowing an increase of pay to hired writers in the circumstances mentioned is under consideration.

  China Operations, 1900—Gratuity to Naval and Marine Forces.
  LORD CHARLES BERESFORD: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether he will state the original rates of the bounty for various ranks of officers and men of the Royal Navy who were engaged in the late operations in China; and will he state why further proposals have been made by which the amount originally suggested has been reduced by one-third.

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  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forster.) An I announcement will be made at an early date as to the scale of the gratuity to be awarded to the Naval and Marine Forces who took part in the operations in China. I am not aware of any foundation for the statement that there has been a change of decision as regards the amount to be awarded.

  Naval Gunnery.
  LORD CHARLES BERESFORD: To ask the Secretary to the Admiralty if he will state what further inducements for the encouragement of good gunnery are now given to the men of the Royal Navy; and whether, seeing that the only monetary inducements of this character now offered to gunnery ratings comprise special allowances, ranging from 2d. a day in the case of a seaman gunner to 1s. a day in the case of a captain of a turret, he will consider the advisability of offering greater inducements to the men of the Royal Navy to become skilled heavy gun shots by placing a yearly Return on the lower deck of every ship in His Majesty's Fleet, giving the names of the best heavy gun shots, as is done now in the case of the best rifle shots.
  (Answered by Mr. Arnold-Forester.) Full information as to the prizes given for prize firing, and the allowances and other inducements already in existence for the encouragement of good gunnery in the Royal Navy will be found in my replies to the hon. Member for Chester on the 2nd and 18th July respectively, to which I would refer the noble Lord. The suggestion made in the latter part of the Question does not differ materially from that contained in his Question of the 28th July and is open to the objections to which I then alluded. †

  Newspapers in House of Commons Rooms.
  SIR HENRY FOWLER: To ask the First Commissioner of Works what are the names of the newspapers which are provided for the use of Members in the tea room and smoke rooms of the House of
  † See (4) Debates CX., 523 (2nd July); CXL., 668 (18th July); CXL., 1354 (28th July.)
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  Commons, and the number of copies of each newspaper; what is the annual cost; and under what Vote is the cost defrayed.
  (Answered by Mr. Akers-Douglas.) The list of papers is too long a one to print in answer to a Question, but will be handed to the right hon. Gentleman by the Sergeant-at-Arms. The cost in the past year has been £149 15s. 3d. This expense is defrayed by the Department of the Sergeant-at-Arms, under Class II., Vote 2, of the Civil Service Estimates, Sub-head G (Incidental Expenses).

  Irish Railway and Harbour Guarantees.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will grant a Return giving the various baronies in Ireland charged with railway and harbour guarantees, the total annual cost and tax per £ of the valuation of such guarantee for each barony, the valuation and population of each barony, the total annual rate for local purposes of each of those baronies; and total remissions under Local Taxation Account of each of those baronies.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The Return will be granted if the hon. Member will move for it in the form which I have communicated to him.

  Prison Warders, Sligo, Galway, and Castlebar Gaols.
  MR. TULLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the number of hours of duty per week of chief warders and warders in the local prisons of Sligo, Galway, and Castlebar, respectively.
  (Anwered by Mr. Wyndham.) This Question was answered on Friday last. †

  Irish Congested Districts Board—Ex penditure at Killaraght (Boyle).
  MR. TULLY: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state how much has been expended by the Congested Districts
  † See page 395.

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  Board in the congested division of Killaraght, in Boyle (No. 2) rural district; and what operations the Board contemplate in that division.
  (Answered by Mr. Wyndham.) The hon. Member has overlooked the fact that this electoral division is not scheduled as congested.

  Army Medical Corps Officers
  DR. FARQUHARSON: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the augmentation of the number of medical officers on the list of Colonels Royal Army Medical Corps, notified in the War Office Gazettes of 13th June and 22nd July, 1902, is the augmentation which was provided for in the Estimates passed by the House of Commons in April and May, 1900; and, seeing that the delay in carrying out the augmentation unfavourably affects the position of some officers on the list of Colonels Royal Army Medical Corps, will he take steps to rectify the same.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The reply is in the negative. The increase of colonels in Estimates 1900–1901 was due to the necessity for providing for two supernumerary officers. The recent appointments were due to the augmentation in connection with the Army Corps scheme.

  Committee on Barrack Construction and Maintenance.
  SIR JOHN COLOMB: To ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Committee on the employment of the Royal Engineers in the construction and maintenance of barracks has yet reported; and whether the Report and minutes of evidence will be presented to Parliament.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Brodrick.) The Committee has reported, and the Report is at present under consideration. It has not been decided to publish it.

  South Africa—Courts Martial Commission.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS: To ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Commission appointed to go to Cape Colony to inquire into the sentences passed under martial law will be authorised to examine witnesses and to call before them
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  witnesses for the prisoners whom the latter were unable to call before the courts martial by reason of such witnesses being away engaged in the war; and whether the Commissioners will make their Report to this House or to the Cape Parliament or both; and, if not, to whom they will report, and will such Report be laid on the Table.
  (Answered by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.) The Commissioners will be authorised at their discretion in any special case in which they may deem it necessary to call before them such persons as they shall judge likely to be able to afford them any information upon the subject of the Commission. The Commissioners will report to His Majesty. I cannot say at present whether the Report will be laid upon the Table.

  Greenwich Hospital Funds.
  MR. REGINALD LUCAS: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he I can hold out hope that before the adjournment he will be able to announce any new scheme for administering the Greenwich Hospital Funds, in view of the heavy demands to which they have recently been subjected.
  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) This Question, as my hon. friend is aware, is one of difficulty, and although some progress has been made, it is still under consideration, and I fear it will be quite impossible to make any statement on the subject before the present adjournment.

  Voluntary Schools—Deficits at date of transfer to Local Authorities.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: To ask the First Lord of the Treasury, seeing that a number of voluntary schools in England and Wales are in debt, will he state whether it is intended that the deficits in the accounts of these schools shall be considered as liabilities to be transferred, under a provision in the Schedule in the Education Bill, to the local education authorities; if so, will such liabilities be chargeable to the local education authorities as from 30th June of this year, or as from the appointed day or later date to be fixed by the Board of Education under Clause 20 of the Education Bill.

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  (Answered by Mr. A. J. Balfour.) It is not proposed by the Bill that voluntary schools should be transferred to local education authorities. Board schools, on the other hand, are so transferred, and accordingly those schools and not voluntary schools are dealt within the Schedule referred to. The local education authority will be responsible for the cost of the maintenance of voluntary schools after the appointed day, but they will have nothing to do with any deficit on the accounts of those schools existing on that day, or with any expenses incurred by the managers before that day.

(2.15.) QUESTIONS IN THE HOUSE.

  General Inquiry into the War.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will state why 5th June, 1900, the date of the occupation of Pretoria by the British forces, has been fixed as the period beyond which inquiry into the conduct of the war by the Commission to be appointed for that purpose is to be concluded, seeing that the loss of life and treasure was greater in the period of the war after that date than in the period before that date.
  THE PRIME MINISTER AND FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): This limitation was suggested, as I think I have already frankly admitted to the House, for the purpose of limiting the enormous burden that would be thrown on the shoulders of this unfortunate Commission. Even thus limited the field of inquiry is a very large one and I fear to unduly extend it. The question, therefore, arises—Is the limitation an undue one, and will it cut out any subsequent inquiry into any matter which the House or any great body of public opinion wishes to sec investigated? Let it be remembered that the inquiry was promised in the early days of the war in consequence of the ill-success of our operations and the widespread feeling that there had been want of foresight and inadequate preparations by the War Office. All these circumstances come within the scope of the inquiry. It will be noticed, therefore, that this limitation of time deals with military operations, but not with the
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  supply of troops, horses, or transport, or any other questions, all of which and everything connected with contracts are open for inquiry up to the end of the military operations. In these circumstances, I hope the House will feel that the Government are justified in preserving the limitations.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: Before the matter is finally settled will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that inquiry was promised into the surrenders which took place after the occupation of Pretoria, such as that at Nooitdegacht. I will, if necessary, put down a Question.
  MR. LOUGH: Will the inquiry exclude an investigation of the statements of members of the Government as to the war being over in August two years ago?
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in September, 1900, the Secretary for War promised that there should be a full investigation into the whole question of the war? An investigation of the kind now promised is not—
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! This is opening a debate on a question which is outside the Question on the Paper.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: Will the terms of reference be given in more formal terms to the House?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I will endeavour to give the precise terms of the reference before the House rises.

  Censorship—Circulation in South Africa of English and Irish Newspapers.
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the Freeman's Journal, the Manchester Guardian, and the Daily News are now allowed to circulate in South Africa.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): I have no positive information on this matter, but I have no reason to suppose that their circulation is prohibited.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Does that apply to the Cork Examiner?
  MR. BRODRICK: I know nothing about that paper.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Has the right hon. Gentleman seen the Report of the High Commissioner dated March last on this subject?
  MR. BRODRICK: No, Sir. I do not know that such a journal has ever been heard of in South Africa.

  Imperial Yeomanry—Medals and Gratuities.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, seeing that the Army Order of 18th December, under which the third batch of Yeomanry were enlisted, states "that the period of training prior to embarkation will be two months, officers commanding being permitted to reduce or increase this period in individual cases only," he will reconsider the cases of these men.
  MR. BRODRICK: I fear I can add nothing to the full reply which I gave my hon. and gallant friend on Monday the 28th ultimo.†

  Stellenbosch Remount Camp.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that Major F. J. Ryder. 3rd Dragoon Guards, the Inspector Officer of Remounts, Cape Colony, collected 1,500 horses at Stellenbosch Camp and put them into a kraal there; whether he is aware that Colonel Ryder decided that these horses should be fed on chaff alone, though it was pointed out to him that the feeding was insufficient, and that glanders, mange, and other diseases made such ravages among these horses that between August and November no fewer than 600 were shot or died; whether he has any, and, if so, what explanation to give of this occurrence.
  MR. BRODRICK: I have no information in regard to the circumstances alluded to.

  † See preceding volume, p. 1350.

  Slave Raiding in Northern Nigeria.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any official information showing that slave raiding is still carried on in the British Protectorate of Northern Nigeria; and, if so, what steps have been or will be taken with a view to put a stop to this practice.
  MR. BRODRICK—(for Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN): Slave raiding in Northern Nigeria, as the official Reports show, is disappearing pari passu with the establishment of British authority, but in the very large area with which the High Commissioner and his officials have to deal it would be impossible to say at the present time that it is entirely a thing of the past. All that can be said is that it is being steadily and progressively extinguished.

  Administration of Turkish European Provinces.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the attention of the Government has been directed to the communications between the Russian and the Austro - Hungarian Governments and the Government of the Porte with respect to the introduction of reforms into European Turkey; and, whether His Majesty's Government intend to co-operate with the two Powers above-mentioned in the action they are now taking.
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE, Rochester): His Majesty's Government are fully alive to the expediency of reform in the administration of the European provinces of the Ottoman Empire, and will take any favourable opportunity of supporting representations made by other Powers to the Sublime Porte on the subject. Their information with regard to any action of the Powers to which the hon. Gentleman refers is confidential.
  MR. FLYNN: But is it not the fact that Turkish troops are now running riot in Servia?
  *LORD CRANBORNE: I must ask for notice of that Question.

  Inspection of Bus Tickets.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, in view of the annoyance caused to passengers by demands to inspect tickets on omnibuses, he will, by legislation or otherwise, provide that inspectors appointed for this purpose shall be required to carry and show a badge issued by the police similar to that worn by omnibus conductors and cab drivers.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. RITCHIE,): The examination of tickets seems to me to be quite reasonable, and I do not think any useful purpose would be served by ticket inspectors wearing a badge.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the inspection is entirely illegal, and will he take steps to prevent it?
  *MR. RITCHIE: No; and I do not propose to take any action in the matte.

  Working Hours of Railwaymen.
  MR. BELL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can state when the Return of hours worked by railwaymen, which is being prepared, will be presented to the House.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): The preparation of this Return is well advanced, but there are still several railway companies from whom the required information has not yet been received. Further reminders, where necessary, will shortly be issued, and every effort will be made to expedite the issue of the Return, but I am unable to name a date for presentation to Parliament.

  Postal Delays in London.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that a letter posted in the S.W. District of London at 10 p.m. on Sunday last was not delivered in the E.G. District until the afternoon of the following day; and will he explain why the letter took eleven hours and
  510
  fifteen minutes to go from the S.W. to the E.G. Post Office, and state whether any compensation will be given to the sender of the letter for the loss thus incurred.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): As explained in a letter addressed to the hon. Member on the 2nd instant, the delay which occurred in the delivery of the letter in question is attributable, not to the length of time occupied in its transmission from the South-Western to the East-Central Post Office, but to a mistake on the part of the postman to whom it was entrusted for delivery. The Postmaster General regrets that the sender suffered loss through the delay of the letter, but he is unable to entertain any claim for compensation.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that last year more than a thousand postmen were dismissed for carelessness, and will he—
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order !

  Kew Gardens.
  MR. SKEWES-COX: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can now arrange for the management and control of Kew Gardens to be transferred from the Office of Works to the Board of Agriculture.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Perhaps I may be allowed to reply to this Question. Yes, Sir, this transfer will in all probability be carried out shortly. The Treasury has been in communication with all the Departments concerned and a small Committee will now be appointed to work out the details of the transfers.

  Highland Deer Forest Return.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate, in view of inaccuracies alleged to exist in the last Deer Forest Return issued by the Crown Agent for Scotland, will he consider the expediency of issuing an amended Return brought up to date.
  *THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON,): No, Sir. I refer to my right hon. friend's reply of the 6th May,†
  † See (4) Debates, evii., 804.
  MR. WEIR: But if the Return is compared with that of 1891 it will be found there are gross inaccuracies. Is not that the case?
  [No answer was returned.]

  Crown Law Officers' Fees.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state the fees and allowances, additional to salary, of the Attorney General and Solicitor General respectively for the year 1901–2.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The fees are, approximately, £5,500 to the Attorney General and £4,350 to the Solicitor General, but the correctness of these figures has not yet been certified by the Comptroller and Auditor General.

  Official Assignees in Bankruptcy—Mr. Knox McEntire.
  MR. NANNETTI: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, as representing the Lord Chancellor, whether, seeing that the Bankruptcy General Orders, No. 255, lay down that no official assignee shall directly or indirectly carry on any trade or business or be engaged in any office or employment other than his office and employment as official assignee, he will state if the action of Mr. McEntire, in acting, as an expert witness in handwriting at Criminal Law and Procedure and other cases, was in accordance with this rule; and whether he will take steps to prevent official assignees being employed in this capacity in future.
  THE ATTOENEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,): This Question is substantially a repetition of that addressed to me by the hon. Member on the 23rd July. To the reply given by me on that occasion I have nothing to add. †

  Jury Challenging at Cork Assizes.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland (1) whether he can say how many jurors were ordered to stand by by the Crown official in the case of Bartholomew Crowley and James Eustace, charged at the present Cork Assizes on a charge of White-boyism; (2) how many of these jurors
  † See preceding Volume, p. 1018.
  512
  were Roman Catholics; and (3) were these jurors challenged with the sanction of Mr. Solicitor General, who conducted the prosecution.
  MR. ATKINSON: The number of jurors ordered to stand aside in the case referred to was twenty - four. These jurors were so ordered to stand aside by the Crown solicitor in obedience to the circular letter of February, 1894, which expressly directs him to take that course—not because of the religions of the jurors, as to which he is prohibited from making any inquiry—but where he has reason to conclude the jurors, if sworn, would not find a true verdict upon the evidence. The Crown solicitor acted without any special directions from the Solicitor General. I am not aware of the religions of the jurors challenged.
  MR. FLYNN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that two of the challenged jurors were magistrates of the City of Cork?
  MR. ATKINSON: I am not.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: How long is this practice to continue?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  Rae Estate, Killorglin.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will have inquiries made at the Dublin Post Office as to whether the receiver on the Rae Estate, Killorglin, sent a telegram to Doyle with directions to give it to the court inspector while valuing the estate.
  THE CHIEF SECRETAEY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): No, Sir. No such inquiries will, or could, be made. On Thursday last I stated that the receiver denied having sent a telegram of this character to Doyle. He has again assured me on the point.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the receiver on the Rae Estate, Killorglin, Kerry, entered the

  513
  lands of Mr. Leane, and gave possession to Mr. Doyle; and seeing that, as a result of this action, twelve summonses came on for hearing at the local court on Friday, 25th instant, will he say what action will be taken to deal with the receiver for his conduct with regard to the sale of this estate.
  MR. WYXDHAM: The receiver did not give possession of any land to Doyle. All he did was to point out to the parties the position of the boundary between their lands, as settled by the court. The summonses issued have no connection with the land in dispute between Doyle and Leane.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: Will the receiver substantiate this statement in a court of law, for I am perfectly well aware that he did the act with which I charge him 1
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member cannot enter on a controversy.

  Police Pensioners as Prison Warders.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the police pensioners at present serving as prison warders in Ireland will in due course be eligible as prison warders for a second pension from public funds.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The reply to this Question is in the affirmative.

  Warrenpoint Orange Demonstration.
  MR. MACVEAGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state on what area will fall the cost of the extra police drafted into Warren-point, Rostrevor, and Newry on the occasion of the recent proposed Orange demonstration at Newry; and whether, in view of the fact that the demonstrators wore imported from the county Armagh and from remote parts of County Down, he will see that the cost is distributed over those two counties.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The area of charge may be either the Local Government Districts of the places mentioned, or the
  514
  entire County Down, in which they are all situated. The matter is at present under consideration. There is no legal power to recover any portion of the cost from the County Armagh, none of the extra force having been employed there.
  MR. DILLON: Seeing that this was an invasion of the County of Armagh, would it not be more equitable to place the cost of the extra police on the districts from which the excursionists came?
  MR. WYNDHAM: There is no legal power to do that.
  MR. DILLON: But there is a discretionary power to place it on the Central Constabulary Fund and not on the County of Armagh.

  Remounts—Studdert Case.
  MR. DEVLIN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state if any of the defendants in the recent Studdert Remount trial in Dublin held or have held the Commission of the Peace or any Commission in the Army or Militia.
  MR. WYNDHAM: One only of the defendants, Major C. W. Studdert, held the Commission of the Peace. He has been removed from the Commission. The other inquiry should be addressed to my right hon. friend the Secretary of State for War.

  Waterford Railway Fatality.
  MR. BELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that an inquest was held in Waterford on 14th July at twelve o'clock (noon) on the body of Thomas Murphy, who died on the evening of the 13th from injuries received on the Great Southern and Western Railway on the 23rd of June last, without forty-eight hours' notice being given to the Board of Trade; and will he take steps to see that in future this notice is given to the Board of Trade.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Fatal accidents on railways are reported to the Board of Trade; such a report was made in

  515
  the present instance. But it forms no part of the duty of the police to give to that Department forty-eight hours', or any specified notice of the intention to hold an inquest in such cases.

  Illicit Stills in County Mayo.
  DR. AMBROSE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can now state when the promised sworn Inquiry into the charges against the police with reference to the seizure of illicit stills in County Mayo is to take place; and what is the method to be adopted on that occasion.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The inquiry will, I hope, be opened at Castlebar on Tuesday the 12th instant. Due notice of the inquiry will be given to the witnesses to be examined. The court will consist of Mr. Gambell, assistant inspector general, and Mr. Meldon, resident magistrate. The proceedings will be public, and it will be open to solicitors or counsel to be present to watch the interests of witnesses and to advise them.
  DR. AMBROSE: Will this inquiry extend to other counties?
  MR. WYNDHAM: Not this one.

  Clogher Head Pier.
  MR. NOLAN: To ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Board of Works undertook to construct a pier at Clogher Head, in the County of Louth, at an estimated cost of £17,000, on condition that a sum of £4,250 was guaranteed locally; that the required local guarantee was given partly by the Grand Jury of Louth, partly by the Corporation of Drogheda, and partly by private benefactors; and that the construction of the pier was commenced and afterwards abandoned; and, seeing that the pier in its present state is useless, can he say why the work was suspended, and when it is likely to be recommenced.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The facts are correctly stated in the first part of the Question. The original design was
  516
  for a pier 270 feet long, with a cant or elbow 80 feet long. It was, however, carried out straight to a distance exceeding 350 feet. The question of the construction of a cant was referred to an eminent engineer, Sir Alexander Rendel, and he was of opinion that it would not make the harbour substantially safer or more accessible, or would have any beneficial effect at all proportionate to its cost. The work was not, therefore, undertaken, nor is it proposed to do so.

  Technical Education in County Cork.
  MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will take steps to submit the amended scheme of technical education, prepared by the Cork County Council, to the public representative boards in the county who are concerned therewith before the scheme is confirmed.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Department withheld sanction to the previous scheme in order that public bodies and others interested might have an opportunity of offering criticisms and suggestions on the subject. Many such representations have been received. The Department does not consider that any useful purpose would be served by awaiting further criticism.

  Labourers (Ireland) Acts Amendment.
  MR. SHEEHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he intends to introduce a Bill to amend the Labourers (Ireland) Acts this year; and, if so, will he state on what date.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I do not think I can, at the present moment, usefully supplement my reply to the hon. Member's similar Question of 18th June.†
  MR. SHEEHAN: Did not the right hon. Gentleman promise to introduce a Bill?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I said the Government were unable to go further than they had already expressed their willingness to go by putting down Amendments to
  † See (4) Debates, cix., 973.

  517
  the Bill before the House. If that course were acceptable time would be found for it.

  Clare Drainage Authority.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will issue a Local Government Board order to enable the Clare County Council to resolve themselves into a drainage board, that they may borrow money from the Treasury to deepen and widen rivers, piers and harbours, and tributaries, and thus reclaim tracts of country; the interest and principle of such loans being charged on the lands according to ascertained advantage.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Section 20 of the Local Government Act, 1898, authorises the transfer of the business of an existing drainage board to a County Council. On this point I would refer to my reply to the hon. Member's previous Question of the 7th July. † But there is no power to constitute the County Council a drainage board in respect to districts in which no drainage board already exists.

  Shebeens in County Longford.
  MR. J. P. FARRELLI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that at a recent petty sessions court at Ballinamuck, County Longford, a man was fined £24 for a shebeen offence: and, having regard to the circumstances of this man and the fact that his friends and neighbours had to subscribe the amount to enable him to pay the fine, will he request the Treasury to refund some portion of the amount.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have nothing to add to my reply to the hon. Member's previous Question of 9th June on this subject.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the alternative in this case was twelve months imprisonment.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The right hon. Gentleman has stated he has
  † See (4) Debates, cx., 934.
  518
  nothing to add to his former reply, and the hon. Member—whether satisfied or not—must accept that answer.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I am at liberty, I presume, to put another Question?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Not now.

  Labourer Cottages in County Limerick.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state for how many labourers' cottages contracts have been entered into by the Rural District Council of Kilmallock, County Limerick, under the present scheme; and, seeing that after the season for the digging of the potato crop has expired employment in that district is difficult to obtain, will he take steps to ensure the immediate erection of all the cottages.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Local Government Board has addressed the District Council on the first part of the Question, and when the information has been received I will communicate it to the hon. Member. The Board has no power to take action as suggested in the second part of the Question. It rests with the Council to expedite the erection of the cottages.

  Mitchelstown Loan Fund.
  MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been directed to the recent action against the trustees of the Mitchelstown Loan Fund in the Rolls Court, Dublin, and to the observations of the Master of the Rolls respecting the action of the Government Inspector, who annually investigated the accounts of the fund, in failing to report the state of affairs to the trustees; and if he intends to take any steps whereby the debenture holders may be indemnified for losses sustained, seeing that there was a Government audit of the accounts of the society.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Yes, Sir, my attention has been directed to the judgment of the Master of the Rolls in this case, from which, I am informed by the

  519
  Loan Fund Board, an appeal is about to be lodged by the plaintiffs. In reply to the second part of the Question, I must point out that neither the officers of the Board nor those of the local societies working in connection with it, are civil servants of the Crown, and that Government exercises no control over the proceedings of the Board or of the local bodies. The Government accepts no responsibility in the matter and cannot indemnify debenture holders against losses sustained by them under circumstances such as are referred to.
  MR. DILLON: Has the attention of the right hon. Gentleman been directed to the fact that for the fortieth time the Board have appealed to the Government to legislate in accordance with the Report of the Committee of 1855? Do they propose to do that?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have nothing to do with that.

  Rathmines Postal Arrangements.
  MR. MOONEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that the latest hour for posting letters in Rathmines, County Dublin, for the night mail is one hour earlier on week days than on Sundays; and, will he, to obviate the inconvenience thus caused to the traders of the locality, have the time of posting on week days extended to the same hour as on Sundays.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The Postmaster General will cause inquiry to be made on the subject, and will communicate the result to the hon. Member.

  Ben Nevis Observatory.
  MR. JOHN DEWAR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he has been made aware of the dissatisfaction in scientific circles at the impending closure of the observatories at Ben Nevis and Fort William owing to the lack of support of Government of these institutions; and whether he will order an inquiry to be made into the distribution by the Meteorological Council of the annual grant of £15,300, so as to secure that an adequate allowance be made to these stations of scientific observation;
  520
  and whether in the meantime arrangements could be made for an interim maintenance grant pending the results of such an inquiry, so as to avert the interruption of the continuity of the meteorological records of the country.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid he was aware of the interest which this question excited and ho had looked into the history of it. He confessed that he started with considerable prejudice against having an, inquiry into the action of those scientific gentlemen who had been good enough to assist the Government in the expenditure of this money; but he found there was such an inquiry held about twenty years ago, in which an hon. friend of his, who now took great interest in the subject, took a leading part. The Committee recommended in their Report that the inquiry should be repeated from time to-time, a recommendation that had not been followed. In the circumstances it would be right to have an investigation, and to repeat it from time to time. This would involve no slur or slight on the Scientific Committee who allocate the funds. He observed that this was assuming an almost international question, but he did not think that the risk of Ben Nevis being deprived of the observatory implied any insult to Ben Nevis, or through Ben Nevis to Scotland; it was a purely scientific matter, and ought so to be treated.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  SIR WALTER FOSTER: Can the right hon. Gentleman state the order of business for Wednesday next?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It is still my hope that, in addition to taking the Appropriation Bill on Wednesday afternoon, the House will further proceed in the evening with the Education Bill.
  MR. LODER: With reference to the Motion on the Paper standing in the name of the right hon. Gentleman, seeing that it is a very unusual one, will the First Lord state whether it is really necessary under the Standing Orders?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I will not say that it is absolutely necessary under the Standing Orders, but seeing that we are

  521
  now working under new Standing Orders it is conceivable that Supply may be finished before midnight, and if the House will look at paragraph 5 of the Standing Order, I think it will see that this is a desirable Motion to be made.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: With reference to the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill, has it not been customary to allow a whole day for it? Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there are a great many important questions to be raised?
  MR. DILLONsaid that hon. Members near him had some very important matters to bring forward. Was there any precedent for closuring the Bill?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: There is no question of precedent, as we have never before had to discuss the Bill under the existing Order on a divided day. I confess I should have thought five hours discussion adequate.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: What arrangements have been made for resuming the discussion on the Irish Bills which were before the House the other night?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I trust they may be taken tonight after we have concluded our strictly financial business.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: There is an understanding that we shall have adequate time for discussing a new Clause on Report of the Local Government Bill, and also for the Committee stage of the Marine Works Bill. The right hon. Gentleman must be very sanguine to
  imagine that those pledges can be fulfilled by bringing on those Bills tonight.

  HOUSING OF THE WORKING CLASSES.
  Report, with Minutes of Evidence, from the Joint Committee, brought up and read.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 325.]

  FRESHWATER FISH (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Lords Amendments to be considered tomorrow, and to be printed. [Bill 292.]

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE (SUPPLY).
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That on this day, notwithstanding anything in the Sessional Order (business in Supply) of the 28th of April, business other than business of Supply may be taken before midnight, and business in Committee or proceedings on Report of Supply may be taken after Midnight."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  MR. DILLON: Can this Motion be discussed?
  *MR. SPEAKER: No, it has to be put without Amendment or debate.
  MR. DILLON: Is that in order? Such a Motion has never been proposed before.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The Supply Rule did not exist before in its present form.
  (2.38.) Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 105; Noes, 63. (Division List No. 351.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glas.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbysh.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore.

  Gordon, Maj. Evans-(T'rH'ml't

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Chapman, Edward

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Ld. G. (Midd'x

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manch'r

  Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert. Wm.

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Davies Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Beresford, Lord Chas, William

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

  Hoult, Joseph

  Bond, Edward

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Flower, Ernest

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T.(Denbigh

  Keswick, William

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Lambton, Hon. Fred. William

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Valentia, Viscount

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Purvis, Robert

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Webb, Col. William George

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunt'n

  Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

  Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute

  Spear, John Ward

  TELLERS FOR, THE AYES—

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Sir William Walrond

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  and Mr. Austruther.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Stroyan, John

  NOES.

  Abraham, William(Cork, N.E.

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Bell, Richard

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  O'Malley, William

  Caldwell, James

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Cameron, Robert

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Carew, James Laurence

  Labouchere, Henry

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Leamy, Edmund

  Roche, John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Crean, Eugene

  Levy, Maurice

  Sinclair, John (Forfarnhire)

  Cullinan, J.

  Lloyd-George, David

  Sullivan, Donal

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Lundon, W.

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Delany, William

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Tully, Jasper

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Mooney, John J.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmann'n

  Dillon, John

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarth'n

  Weir, James Galloway

  Donelan, Capt. A.

  Murnaghan, George

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Murphy, John

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Mr. Lough and Mr.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  O'Brien, Kendal(Tipperary Mid

  Yoxall.

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Resolution agreed to.

  SUPPLY.
  [22ND ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1902–3.
  1. £11,242,000 for transports and remounts.
  SIR ARTHUR HAYTERsaid he desired to point out certain points of improvement in the remount system which he thought would facilitate the supply of horses. This year the House was asked to vote £3,729,000 for remounts, while last year the amount was £5,200,000, and the year before £5,729,000. When the figures were so vast it was the duty of the Committee
  524
  to try to put the Remount Department on a better footing. The first point he wished to draw attention to was the disproportion that existed between the number of men and the number of horses in our cavalry regiments. In the strongest regiments at present there were 609 men, but only 465 horses; that was to say the horses were 144 short. In the case of the small regiments there were 404 men and 279 horses, or 125 short. Colonel Birkbeck, the Director of Remounts, in his Report, referred to the necessity of a much larger supply of trained cavalry and artillery horses being kept up in time of peace. That officer said that a regiment of cavalry should always be ready to go on service with the ranks filled with trained horses and with a sufficient percentage to cover loss at sea, and that the men should go out in charge of the horses they were going to ride. He hoped the

  525
  authorities at home would give their attention to this matter, and would in future keep a much higher proportion of horses than they now did. The next point was there should be officers specially trained for remount duty. The Remount Department ought to be regarded as a Department in itself. It would be remembered that when the Remount Department had to obtain horses from Hungary the military attaché at Vienna was not consulted as to the supply in that country. The reason appeared to be that he was the servant of the Foreign Office, and could only report to that Office. He thought that military attaches ought to be required to report direct to the War Office with regard to the supply of horses. The supply of the horses should have as much special study as the supply of foodstuffs. That was the opinion of Colonel Birkbeck, and very sensible advice it was. It was said that in Cape Colony and Canada some suitable places might be got for breeding establishments. He thought that the noble Lord rather discouraged the idea of going to Australia for remounts, because the supply of horses for the Indian Army was obtained from that country. The hon. Member for the Westbury Division of Wiltshire suggested that the War Office should send out officers to the Irish fairs and to the West of England, where they could buy the horses direct from the farmers themselves. He agreed with that, and also earnestly hoped that the payment of the 10s. registration fee would be kept up. He believed that no more serviceable horses were found for artillery and draught purposes than the omnibus horses that went out from this country. They were in hard training, and it was these horses that had carried the guns out of action at Stromberg. He hoped, too, that in order to reduce the weight carried by cavalry horses the suggestion should be considered that to every squadron there should be a cavalry cart. There was an absolute necessity of insisting that all officers sent abroad to buy horses and mules should produce properly registered vouchers. There was the notorious case of a mule buyer in Spain getting a commission from the vendors as well as from the War Office; and the same thing had happened in Hungary. Summarising
  526
  the recommendations which he thought should be carried out, he repeated that (1) all officers sent out to purchase horses should receive strict instructions that they were to obtain the best possible vouchers for what they were buying, and were to be held strictly responsible for the money they spent; (2) that the number of horses in the cavalry regiments should be increased; (3) that the officers should be trained to remount duties; (4) that the sources of supply of remounts should be tabulated at the War Office, and the services of military attaches utilised; (5) that depots for breeding horses should be established; and (6) that officers should deal directly with farmers and breeders instead of going to dealers.
  *COLONEL WELBYsaid there were great difficulties, as had been pointed out by the hon. Baronet, in equalising the men and horses in our cavalry regiments. There was no commanding officer who would not be glad if the theory of one man and one horse were carried out, but it could not be done unless the whole cavalry system of our Army was changed. Among the dismounted men there were officers' servants, officers' mess waiters, sergeants' mess waiters, canteen waiters, store men, clerks, men to look after supplies; and then there were the recruits. Under such circumstances, if there were one horse to each man, it would be impossible to get the horses cleaned and turned out. It must be remembered also that when a man was sick or when he was on furlough his horse had to be cleaned by some one else. Some people might say that all this implied mere pipe-clay and polish, but it should not be forgotten that ours was a voluntary Army, and unless it was kept smart he did not believe we should get the men. What was wanted was that men should be induced to take a pride in themselves and in their regiments. As to the weight which ought to be carried by cavalry horses, there was no question which had been more studied in every possible way. It had been proved over and over again that the heavy saddle was necessary to sustain the accoutrements of the soldiers, and that a light hunting saddle, or something like a racing saddle, caused

  527
  sore backs. The hon. Baronet's idea as to the squadron carts with four horses would no doubt go some small way towards minimising the difficulty, although to a certain extent squadron carts were allowed and went with the regiments now. He thought that the Remount Department had suffered very unfairly at the hands of the House in the debate which took place on the subject some time ago. The Report of the Committee was only put in the hands of Members just before the discussion arose, and he did not think that anyone in the House, not even the Secretary for War himself, then understood its real bearings. The result was that the whole blame was instantly thrown upon the regular Remount Department, and the head of that Department, General Truman, was virtually made the scapegoat. But when hon. Members came to look more closely into the Report they found that it referred to what had been done by those who bought horses for the Yeomanry, and they were not the regular Remount Department. The Remount Department was a small one, and had been enormously overworked, and the general result of the debate had been that an enormous amount of opprobrium had attached to the regular Remount Department. He thought that the cloud of opprobrium which had hung over the Remount Department should be dispersed, or that at least they should know its proper limits; and it was only fair and just that they should press most urgently on the Secretary of State to make public the Report from the Commission which had been inquiring into the matter in America and Australia.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEcordially concurred with the hon. and gallant Gentleman in asking for the publication of the Report of this Commission, and of the evidence taken by it as well. He was sorry, however, that the hon. and gallant Gentleman should have raised the subject of the debate upon General Truman, as a Committee was at present inquiring into that officer's case at his own request, and it would have been better to have waited until that Committee had reported. But as the question had been
  528
  raised, he must say that his attack upon the Remount Department in the debate which had been referred to was based solely on the evidence taken at the inquiry and General Truman's own statements, which appeared to him to admit the breakdown of his Department. In regard to the question of weight upon cavalry horses, he was one of those who thought that there had been some little exaggeration of the importance of the matter, as compared with the overwhelming importance of training the men to take due care of their horses. Some of the most successful cavalry in the history of war had been heavily-weighted cavalry. The cavalry of the Grand Army which Napoleon took to Moscow was a most heavily-weighted cavalry, and the German cavalry in the Franco - German War was more heavily weighted than the French. The other question—that of the proportion of horses to men in a regiment—was of first-class importance, and he understood his right hon. friend to contend on the lines of the Report of Colonel Birkbeck, not that there should be necessarily the same number of horses as men, which was the counsel of perfection. His hon. and gallant friend the Member for Taunton had shown the difficulty of having as many horses as men, and pointed out the many duties which had to be performed by dismounted cavalry men, but he (Sir Charles Dilke) understood his right hon. friend the Member for Walsall to follow Colonel Birkbeck in the argument that a larger proportion of horses should be kept in training in-time of peace than was now the custom. That argument had been pressed on the Government for years past. Year after year the Government had been told they had not sufficient horses for their Army, and their reply had always been that they had a great reserve on which to draw. Omnibus horses had done very well, there was no doubt, as artillery horses, but not as cavalry horses, and the arguments advanced in the past as to the need of cavalry horses remained. If they were to have any cavalry at all, a larger proportion of horses must be kept up. The argument of Colonel Birkbeck was that there should be a larger supply of trained cavalry horses in time of peace, and that cavalry should,

  529
  be able to go on service with its complement of fully trained horses and still leave a large reserve of trained horses on which to draw. The evidence of every officer who had served in South Africa testified to the soundness of the argument, and pointed out why the cavalry failed to do what was hoped of them. Some of the highest military authorities of the present day did not believe in cavalry: there was a strong desire to substitute mounted infantry for cavalry without taking the necessary steps to keep up a large force in time of peace; to put them through a mounted infantry school without having an establishment of horses for them, but he contended that the cavalry would find a new field of activity in the future. He hoped the Government would be able to tell the Committee that they were considering this question of remounts, and that they were not overlooking that branch of it which related to the maintenance in this country of a proper supply of cavalry horses in time of peace.
  COLONEL BLUNDELLsaid he wished to draw attention to Ireland as a recruiting ground for horses. It was the best country in the world for the breeding of horses. He urged that cavalry horses should be bought at three years old direct from the farmer in Ireland; that they should be turned out for two years on the limestone pastures of Ireland, and then be brought into service. That would ensure the Government having horses at a fit age. By that policy, also, a large amount of money would be spent in Ireland, which both directly and indirectly would do a vast amount of good. With regard to the weight to be placed on cavalry horses, he entirely agreed with what had been said by his hon. friends the Members for Taunton and the Forest of Dean. They must not run any risk of sore backs in reducing weight.
  COLONEL NOLANagreed with the hon. and gallant Member who had just spoken as to the advisability of purchasing horses at the age of three years. His hon. and gallant friend was quite right in saying that Ireland was the best horse-breeding
  530
  country in the world, though the Remount Department had done all it could to destroy the system of horse-breeding. The Government paid £40 a horse, but the Irish farmer only got £26 or.£28. A cavalry officer, no doubt, knew something about horses, but was afraid that he might sometimes make a mistake in the horse he bought, and was more afraid of the remarks of other cavalry officers if he did so. He, therefore, appointed a man to buy horses for him; the dealer was the great protection of the cavalry colonel. He did not think that at present Irish horses were heavy enough for artillery, but for mounted infantry and cavalry they were superb. He condemned the system of buying horses through dealers, and said that if the money went straight into the farmers' pockets they would undoubtedly try to produce a good class of animals.
  MR. SPEARagreed as to the desirability of establishing means of securing horses suitable for Army work direct from the farmers, but there were considerable difficulties in the matter. Occasionally advertisements were inserted that the Government agent would be at a certain place on a given day to buy horses. Every farmer believed he had horses suitable for the purpose, but on inspection probably 90 per cent, were rejected as unsuitable, with the result that much friction, disappointment, and irritation were caused. He suggested that the Secretary of State for War should select a thoroughly reliable veterinary surgeon in each poor law district, who, from the nature of his position, would know where there were horses suitable, and on a given day could apprise the owners, so that the horses might be brought to a certain place for the Government agent to see. It would mean a small fee to the veterinary surgeon, but he was more likely than an Army officer to be a good judge of horses. He would know a horse in the rough, and that was what the War Office wanted. The formation of foreign depots had been suggested, but why not have such depots at home? Why not have some of the unoccupied land in Essex utilised for horse-breeding? If breeding establishments were

  531
  set up, horses eminently suited for army purposes might be produced. It was also desirable that arrangements should be made by which horses could be purchased at a lower age, as many men bred good colts, but were unable to afford to keep them until they were old enough for Army purposes. He further thought it was high time that something should be done to secure the production of sounder horses. If every horse used for fee or hire was required to have a certificate of soundness, a class of horse would be built up well fitted for the Army, but which now had to be purchased abroad.
  MR. FULLERcontended that until horses were bought more directly from the owner or breeder the state of things of which complaint was made would continue. When the question was discussed last year the Financial Secretary to the War Office met a similar suggestion in a sympathetic and conciliatory spirit, and promised to make inquiries. It would be interesting for the Committee to know what steps the War Office had taken, and what had been the result of the inquiries. There was an admirable organisation already in existence of which use might be made in this matter. There was hardly a horse-breeding district in England in which there was not a Yeomanry regime it, officered almost entirely by gentlemen who lived in and had knowledge of the county, and were good judges of horseflesh, and use might be made of the adjutants of those regiments, at any rate for the purpose of keeping a register for their respective counties of horses fitted for military purposes. In that way the country would always have at its disposal a list of the remounts upon which it could lay its hands. If such a scheme was not possible, the Chambers of Agriculture in the different counties might be made use of. In any case, nothing but good could accrue from a system under which the purchases were made more directly from the owners or breeders.
  MAJOR RASCHI suggested that the War Office might
  532
  do worse than study the Austro-Hungarian system for mounting cavalry. The Emperor Francis Joseph started the system by forming a number of stud farms at which the farmers were allowed to get their mares covered at a nominal price on one condition, viz., that the produce should be the property of the Government at £26 for gun horses and £28 for cavalry horses. No horses were taken until they were four years old, and none were kept after reaching the age of ten years. That was very different from the practice in this country, where he had often seen cavalry regiments going out with 200 horses, leaving the rest in the riding school because they were too young. In Austria-Hungary the system produced the horses for the cavalry, and even the Honved, a militia, which were perhaps the best horsed in the world. He was bound to say that from his experience Ireland was a better horse-breeding country than Essex, but the reason why a better class of horses did not come from Ireland was that the Irish breeder and farmer could not afford to give a sufficient price for sires. He urged that breeding depots should be established in Ireland.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid the lesson of the war had been that mounted infantry were essential. The statements which had been made as to the paucity of horses, even for the cavalry regiments, were bound to cause a certain amount of anxiety as to the efficiency of our cavalry force. When they took that fact into consideration, together with the enormous amount of public money they had spent during the last few years on this particular subject, he thought this was a question which deserved the very careful consideration, not only of every military Member of the House, but of every business man connected with the Government of the country. It did not require any argument to support the suggestion of increasing the number of cavalry horses available for each cavalry regiment. It might necessitate a certain amount of increased expenditure, but it was obvious that a cavalry regiment should have a larger proportion of horses —if it was to be used effectively—than

  533
  the number available at the present moment. It had also been suggested —and he thought the suggestion was not only practical but of great value—that we should have specially trained officers for the purchase of horses. Those hon. Members who had been connected with the Remount Department had had evidence that the men employed for that purpose had not always been trustworthy, or had known how to purchase horses for the Army of the best kind, or at the lowest price. Why it should be necessary to have middlemen in the transactions passed his comprehension. The suggestion that horses should be purchased direct from the farmer commended itself to him as a business suggestion. There ought to be no difficulty in this country, with the organisation we possessed, not only in connection with the Board of Agriculture, but also the Local Government Board and other Departments, in having a register of horses in every county in the country. Such a register might be under the control of the Yeomanry officers, or kept under the auspices of the Agricultural Department, or of the County Councils. Persons living in the country ought to be encouraged to breed horses, and where a register was kept the War Office would be in a position to know, through the local authority, where a supply could always be found. A scheme like that might be carried out without any great expenditure of public money, and in that way the authorities might make our supply of horses in the future much more secure than it has been under the happy-go-lucky system which had hitherto prevailed.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK, Surrey, Guildford): I am very far from denying the importance of the discussion raised by the right hon. Baronet, but I am not equally sure that the remarks made by the hon. Member who has just spoken have very much advanced the Committee in the solution of the difficulties in the matter. I am afraid I shall have to show that his suggestions, though they sounded very plausible, have either been taken advantage of already, or if put into force would not have the effect
  534
  which he anticipates. Many points have been raised, but the main point in connection with this matter—which, I think, has been entirely ignored—is the failure of the supply of horses at the beginning of the late war. That was due to the practical impossibility of organising a Department, which, in one normal year has to do business to the extent of 2,500 horses, on such a basis as to enable it to cope with a sudden demand for 150,000 horses. All this talk about organising, knowing where horses are to be found, and so forth, is very good, but if you put it to any business house in the City, that they should so organise their business that at some unknown time in the far distant future they should be able suddenly to do a business sixty times as great as their ordinary business, they would tell you that it was impossible for them to undertake such an operation, but they would do the best they could when the occasion arose. The hon. Member spoke of registering every horse in the United Kingdom. I do not know whether he is aware that before the war broke out 17,000 horses were registered, and many more would have been, but the owners were not willing to register them. It would be all very well for us to keep officers going about making out how many horses there are which it would be desirable for the country to bid for in case of war, but the trouble would be lost, because it does not necessarily follow that the owners would sell when war broke out. Our only possibility is to register those horses whose owners say they would be willing to sell.
  Now let me follow on briefly to one or two cases which have been mentioned, in which, during the war, there has been a lack of proper purchasing power. A great deal has been said about Hungary. I have always pointed out that a good many of the operations most complained of in Hungary were undertaken by the Yeomanry Committee on their own initiative, and were not under the control of the Remount Department. I have never made, and never shall make, any apology for the action taken by my predecessor when he entrusted the work of that particular force to the Yeomanry Committee. The War Office was suddenly asked to put 200,000 men in the field in South Africa, a very large

  535
  number of them mounted. This House and successive Governments never having contemplated sending abroad more than 70,000 men in any emergency, it is perfectly obvious that such a demand could not be met without straining our resources in every direction. I believe a better policy could not have been adopted than that of trusting a body of expert gentlemen, particularly expert in the knowledge of horseflesh, and cognisant of the particular duties entrusted to them. To some extent they failed. They did not fail in the provision of men; they got us most excellent men; they did not fail in the equipment of those men, but in some respects they failed in the matter of the provision of horses.
  Then with regard to the Hungarian purchases. That business was denounced by the hon. Member for Dulwich, who was instrumental in bringing to light what had been called the scandals with regard to the purchase of horses in Hungary. I will tell the Committee what has occurred during the present year. I went to the hon. Member for Dulwich and asked him whether, as we had ceased buying Hungarian and were buying Russian horses, he would favour me by putting me in a position to buy the class of horse in Hungary which he said could be bought, but which we—as it was alleged—by the conduct of the War Office and the entire neglect of public interest, had failed to obtain. The hon. Member met me in the most friendly spirit. He undertook to send out his trainer, Mr. Waugh, who speaks the language, and to put us into communication with certain Hungarian magnates who were only anxious to retrieve the character of their country as a horse-market for the world. I was glad to accept his offer, but told him that we could not undertake to buy any number of Hungarian horses until we had proved that he was able to produce those of better class than we had been able to get through other channels. Mr. Waugh went out and conducted the negotiations. I did not limit him as to price, and he suggested a figure £6 or £8 —I think it was £6, but I am not certain— higher than the price we had been giving in Hungary, and we were to get the best horses of the cavalry class. At the wish
  536
  of those concerned, we sent out a special Commission to inspect the horses, so that there might be no question of the existing Commission being in any way prejudiced in the matter. I am not in possession of the whole of the facts but I may say that, according to the reports I have received, after paying a higher price, sending out a special Commission, and going to a particular class who we were assured were most anxious to serve us well, we have been disappointed at the class of horses brought before our inspectors. They have had to reject so many, that at one time the contractors said they would not produce any more, because it did not pay them to have them rejected. The inspectors telegraphed to me, and I told them to reject as many as they thought necessary. Ultimately we got the number made up, but when the contingent arrived in South Africa it was not favourably reported on. I am assured, but have not been able actually to verify the statement, that that contract, like others, was sub-sold without our knowledge, and that a considerable number of horses were bought from our old contractor, who has been denounced in this House.
  In the case of these contracts the hon. member for Dulwich interested himself in every way he could in the most patriotic manner, and actually sent out a man at his own expense in order that we might obtain the right article. The only conclusion that I draw from these circumstances, strange though it is, is that the horse, which is by no means an immoral animal itself, is the cause of much immorality in others. Wherever the War Office bought horses, whether in this country or elsewhere, we met with the same difficulties. The Studdert case showed a gentleman well reputed in his own country and of an excellent character, a man who stood high in all the relations of life, who when he came to trade in horses committed a flagrant breach of honourable conduct, and indeed, I may say, without using language of too strong a character, was guilty of dishonesty. A number of persons were concerned in the transactions, as was shown by the trial, and the whole proceeding was of the most discreditable character. I have been criticised on account of the action of the Solicitor

  537
  General, who represented the Government in the legal proceedings, in compromising the action. I am not a lawyer, but I do not see anything to censure in the matter. The Solicitor General called his witnesses; the defendants declined to go on; judgment was given against them, and the only question was the question of damages, when they agreed to pay £2,000 and the costs, which amounted to about the same sum. But nothing was done to bar future proceedings. I cannot enter now into the question of how far future criminal proceedings are likely to take place, but that depends entirely upon the possibility of success or failure. I ordered the action to be entered against the defendants within three weeks of my taking office in November, 1900. They took us from Court to Court, and finally to the House of Lords. I can only say that no fear of exposing any one will prevent me, if I can get a legal case, from going on with the matter.
  As to the purchase of horses in the future, my noble friend the Financial Secretary to the War Office is giving the subject his attention, and I hope to be able to announce next year the course to be adopted, which I hope will largely provide against the recurrence of the difficulties we have had to contend against in the past. My hon. and gallant friend the Member for Taunton truly said that the Remount Department has been too much blackened in the course of the discussion on the affairs of the Department six months ago. The inspectors whom I sent to report on the purchase of horses in America, Canada, Hungary, South Africa, and Australia have nearly all sent in their Reports. The publication of these Reports has been asked for. I do not think there will be any difficulty in making them public, and I am perfectly willing to give all the information it is in my power to give; but I should like to say at once, on behalf of some of the officers of the Remount Department, that I think they have been hardly dealt with by public opinion. Colonel de Burgh, the officer in the Department in New Orleans, despite climatic and all sorts of difficulties, has done excellent service, and deserves the highest praise for the work he has done. Good work has also been done in Canada. The operations in Russia also were a credit to all concerned. I do not think that Lord Kitchener himself would
  538
  join in the outcry which has been raised against the Remount Department. I must remind the House that you must look to some extent to what you find in South Africa itself, for the blame of what occurred, in the want of care shown in sending the horses up country before they were fit, or in mixing them with those that were unfit; and you must not bestow all your censure upon those who selected the horses. I speak the more freely on the subject because, from the moment I took office, I urged Lord Kitchener to commandeer all the horses he could obtain in the parts of Cape Colony which were under martial law, so that we might be put a few weeks ahead of the supplies we had at that time. I think it only just to make these remarks in the interest of the officers of the Remount Department, who have worked so hard for the last two years.
  With regard to the case of General Truman, the Court of Inquiry is still sitting, and I am sorry I have not yet received its Report. I would remind the Committee that the Court of Inquiry was appointed by the Commander-in-Chief, and I am no more entitled to interfere with its proceedings than I am to interfere with those of a Court of Law. With regard to the remarks made as to the number of horses in each cavalry regiment, that is a matter which must be left to the military authorities. I remember some years ago meeting several of the best cavalry colonels and urging upon them the necessity of obtaining a larger number of horses for their regiments: but they did not see the necessity of so doing, as experience had shown that, given a certain number of trained horses in a regiment, other horses brought in to meet an emergency, when it arose, became fit in a few days for the work they had to perform. A much larger question was raised by the hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean when he declared that mounted infantry will be the need of the future. I am not going to hastily adopt the opinion that, because of the experiences of the South African War, cavalry will not be required as before; but that cavalry ought to be taught to shoot well and to be able to act as mounted infantry, no one will deny. The suggestion that large farms should be obtained for the rearing of young horses seems, at first sight, excellent in every respect. But these

  539
  schemes must ultimately be tried by the question of cost; and while, with the experience of South Africa fresh in the public recollection, cost is accounted of little consequence, a time will come when pressure will be applied to the Secretary of State for War to reduce expenditure at all hazards; and if it were found that the system of buying young horses and rearing them on a farm increased the expenditure by £10 per horse, depend upon it you will have an immediate outcry raised against it, and the whole system would have to be recast. That we should get more closely into touch with the farmers there is no doubt; and that is part of my noble friend's plan. I can assure the Committee that all the questions which have been raised in connection with the purchase of horses for the Army are engaging the most careful attention of the War Office. Our great difficulty is to develop out of the sources of supply sufficient to meet the comparatively small annual demand for horses in time of peace, a service needed at the moment of emergency, arising at a time which we cannot foresee, and under circumstances which we cannot forecast.
  MR. DILLONsaid the public in Ireland had the gravest suspicion with regard to the Studdert case. He did not understand the right hou. Gentleman to contend for a moment that the £2,000 and costs awarded recently by the Court in Dublin swept away the profit made by Studdert and his confederates. They had walked off with an enormous sum — it was estimated at £10,000. He was not sure that that was a correct figure. He was only speaking from public report. The matter had been before the House for nearly two years, and until the present occasion they had always been met with the statement that it was sub judice, and that it could not be fairly discussed here. Every resource known to the law had been exhausted in order to procrastinate the trial of the case. That should have aroused the suspicions of the War Office, and, although the right hon. Gentleman did everything to force them to come to trial, it was public talk in Ireland—he gave it for what it was worth—that the law officers in Ireland had not been very active in seconding his efforts, and that procrastination was allowed to go on onger than was necessary. He did
  540
  not make that charge—he mentioned it. But, at all events, what was the actual situation now? That a man who had, by the admission of the right hon. Gentleman, benefitted in that way to the extent of many thousands, who had made a laughing stock of the Government, was not to be made responsible. He had made a laughing stock of the Government because, according to the evidence, every absolutely valueless old horse was sold. Horses that the farmers got £7, £8 or £9 for were sold to the Government for £30 or £35. Men said that the age of some of them was so great that it was beyond human memory, and enormous numbers of mares in foal and every kind of rubbish all over the country was swept up. These facts must have been known to the Government and the Government lawyers for nearly two years, and it was not denied at the trial that in carrying out this extraordinary scheme his own son had made a fortune, and that the name of another man, who was alleged to be the secretary of a company or syndicate, had been used. Therefore, there was admitted in the court a case of fraud of the most extraordinary character, resulting in an enormous profit far beyond what was recovered in the way of damages. Yet now they were told by the right hon. Gentleman that if it was possible there would be a prosecution. Forgery had been sworn to in court and had not been denied, fraud was admitted, and yet they were told that if it was possible there would be a prosecution. Well, the right hon. Gentleman would pardon him for saying that the conviction existed in Ireland that the possibility of a conviction varied according to the person to be prosecuted, and he supposed that when Parliament assembled next session they would be informed that this was a matter of past history and that it was impossible to get evidence. He did not want to go into other cases in Ireland which had been heard of, in which there was the power but not the, will to prosecute. Major Studdert was a person of great influence in Ireland, and the hon. Gentleman had no doubt the Castle in Dublin was besieged at this moment by powerful influences begging that this

  541
  gentleman should not be prosecuted. [MR. BRODRICK shook his head.] The right hon. Gentleman shook his head. But what did he know about what was going on? One sentence was noticeable in what had been said about this matter— that Major Studdert was well known and respectably connected. Certainly he belonged to the gentry of County Clare and was a specimen—the hon. Member did not say a fair one—of the class of receivers under the Land Act in Ireland who had ruined the unfortunate people. He did undoubtedly belong to an influential family of the County Clare, as the right hon. Gentleman said, widely connected and therefore in a position to bring influence upon the authorities in Dublin. In fact, if the matter was allowed to go on without some more definite and satistactory statement it would be found that these influences, in the recess, would cause the Studdert case to disappear. Having regard to the public way in which this business went on it must have been absolutely well known to the police. Ireland was a peculiar country. It was said that a cock could hardly crow without the fact being recorded in the Castle. The place was pervaded with police spies. There was hardly a transaction at a fair which was not reported. At every fair there were numbers of police mixing with the people, talking to them, and giving them drink for political purposes. And having regard to the way in which these purchases of Studdert's were talked about everywhere it would be impossible for the Government not to have had in their possession, not now, but long ago, evidence upon which to prosecute. And yet they were told, after all this had come out, that if it was possible there would be a prosecution. He urged that a prosecution should have been undertaken long ago. It should be remembered that while it was a legitimate excuse or reason for not discussing the case in the House that it was sub judice, that was no reason for not instituting a criminal prosecution. As soon as the Government knew that there was fraud they should have instituted such a prosecution. The Irish law officers had never made an adequate statement with reference to this case. They should have explained to the
  542
  House what was the meaning of the expression "if a prosecution is possible." He asserted that it was believed by public opinion in Ireland that a prosecution was possible, and the Government would act unwisely and give rise to universal suspicion if steps were not taken. The other day a compromise took place. The right hon. Gentleman said there was no compromise, but that was not the opinion in Dublin; the case suddenly collapsed and there was a settlement arrived at between counsel on each side, and the Dublin Press, without distinction politically, commented most unfavourably upon the conduct of Crown counsel in the case. The Dublin correspondent of the London Times had a paragraph next morning saying so, and observing that it was not to be wondered at. So that the suspicion and discontent at the extraordinary termination of this case was not confined to Nationalists, but was shared in by the whole Press of Ireland. In the speech which the House had just heard there was no definite promise that an investigation would be held into this case. Were they to be told after all that had taken place that it was possible Mr. Studdert and the others would be allowed to walk off with their plunder? He trusted this Vote would not be allowed to pass until they received some more definite assurance than had yet been given. They had pressed again and again for a separate inquiry into the contracts connected with the war, and now they were told that the whole question of contracts was to be referred to the general inquiry. Before the general inquiry, which was an inquiry of a philosophic character, had concluded its labours, all interest in the war and everything connected with it would have ceased to exist. In view of the policy adopted by the Government with regard to these inquiries, it was all the more important that some special action should be taken with regard to this transaction in Ireland. If the Government desired so buy their horses through dealers, there were dealers in Ireland of good reputation; men known to many hon. Members of this House, who had a great name and reputation, and who would not desire to swindle the Government. He claimed that before this debate closed

  543
  some assurance should be given by the right hon. Gentleman that this matter should be probed to the bottom, and that the Committee should not be put off with a vague statement of the Secretary of State, from which it was quite clear that the Government intended to abandon all serious efforts to deal with this question.
  MR. BECKETTsaid that he thought the Government had been more hardly treated in this Amendment than they deserved. He explained that the selection of Major Studdert had been left chiefly to the Yeomanry Committee. This gentleman was chosen because he was believed to be a first-rate judge of horses and a man of high standing. It was thought that by employing a gentleman of this character, in touch with the horse dealers, the best remounts would be secured. When Major Studdert had made some purchases it was brought to the notice of the Committee that the horses were not up to the required standing. An inspector was sent to see the horses and to take photographs of them, and a most remarkable collection of photographs they were. The animals were about as rotten a lot of screws as could possibly be found. A certain proportion of the animals, however, were good, but there could be no doubt that Major Studdert intended to swindle the Government, and when he was ordered to attend before the Committee, and was asked what position he thought he occupied, he took the line that he was appointed an agent of the Committee at a salary of two guineas a day, and in buying the horses he had done the best he could. The Yeomanry Committee was dissolved; Colonel Lucas was sent to South Africa, and he (Mr. Beckett) was left in charge. Later on further facts came out about the horses, and he entrusted a firm in Ireland to make investigations. The result was that Major Studdert had purchased these horses under false names and had put the money into his pocket. These facts were sent by him to the War Office, and the War Office, without hesitation, consented to an action being brought. The case was put before Lord Lansdowne just before the general election, but he
  544
  was unable to come to a decision at that particular moment. But the moment that the War Office gave the matter consideration his right hon. friend ordered action to be taken. The kind of action which should be taken was submitted to counsel's opinion, and on their advice civil and not criminal proceedings were taken. No blame, in his opinion, attached to the War Office in this matter. The War Office did not know what Studdert was doing at the time. The War Office left the Yeomanry Committee to do the work as it thought fit, and knew nothing about the matter until he reported it to them. The action of the Department was fair and straight, and he rejoiced to hear that further proceedings would probably be taken.
  MR. BRODRICKassured the Committee that, whatever might have been the common talk in Ireland, there was no disposition shown on the part of the Irish law officers except to pursue the case to the utmost. It was said that the terms on which the action was decided were insufficient. But the Committee must remember that, legally, when they were dealing with a question involving 200 or 300 horses, which was the point in this particular suit, they had to proportion the amount so as to reach the sum of £2,000. He was far from saying that this was the whole amount of profit made; but in order to recover legally they must prove the profit made in each case. It would be a very long business to arrive at the precise amount. The point now was whether further proceedings were possible, and whether there was a disposition on the part of the Government to take them. No one in his position could make apologies for a transaction in which he had not been concerned, and in respect of which an undoubted fraud had been perpetrated against the Government. He could assure the Committee that the Department was willing to take further action. He was disposed to go to extreme lengths in the matter; but in such a question dependence must be placed on the legal advisers of the Department as to the value of the evidence. The arm of the Government was strong, and it should not be employed against individuals unless there was a valid reason for it.

  545
  Before taking action there must be careful consideration, but the War Office needed no stimulus from the Committee, and he hoped it would not be said that in consequence of this debate the War Office took action which they would not otherwise have taken. There was no extreme to which the Government would not go, if it were justifiable, to punish the offenders.
  MR. LABOUCHEREsaid that he believed the right hon. Gentleman desired to take action, but he feared that, if the legal advisers of the right hon. Gentleman said that they could not be sure of a conviction, that would be considered a bar to prosecution.
  MR. BRODRICK: That will not be sufficient to prevent an action being brought.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: Then I have nothing more to say.
  *MR. LEVYsaid the Committee were entitled to have a more definite statement from the right hon. Gentleman before they passed the Vote. The right hon. Gentleman said that unless he could get a good prima facie case he could not undertake a prosecution. Surely the Government had sufficient evidence already to justify a criminal prosecution. To his mind this was a very serious question indeed. There was a case recently brought to light in Ireland where the Government officials manufactured both crime and evidence; then, there was no difficulty whatever about evidence—in fact, they could there get whatever evidence they desired. They had here a case where direct fraud had been carried on and large sums of money swindled out of the taxpayers. It was perfectly clear there were at least two men who ought to be prosecuted—one was Major Studdert and the other was his son. No one could reasonably suggest there was not a prima facie case against these two men. The right hon. Gentleman said Studdert was selected because he was a good judge of horses, and for that reason he was preferred to a horse dealer. That fact intensified the position and made matters very much worse. These
  546
  men not only defrauded the Government by sending out wretched crocks to South Africa, but the use of such horses probably resulted in the loss of many precious lives. These men could well afford to say to themselves, "If no further action is taken against us the Government will merely take from us only a portion of the proceeds of our frauds." The Government should make an example of these men, and then they would probably have more honest men to deal with in the future. He hoped that unless the Government gave more satisfactory information the Committee would go to a division on the Vote.
  MR WALLACEsaid that his hon. friend could hardly have heard what the Secretary of State had said. The right hon. Gentleman had given a pledge that if possible a conviction should be obtained in this case. He recognised the great difficulty of proving damage in cases of this kind; but when. Major Studdert admitted that he had swindled the Government, and when Major Studdert's son admitted that he had; committed forgery, the difficulty was removed.
  MR. ROCHEsaid that what they complained of in Ireland was that all this time Dublin Castle was in correspondence with the English Government, and that they must have known what was going on. Dublin Castle, by means of the police, knew everything that went on in Ireland, and they ought to have taken means to stop this scandal.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERexpressed his confidence in the Secretary of State to prosecute this matter as far as possible. He desired to put a question with regard to transport. The carts supplied by the War Office for this purpose were very heavy, and in answer to a Question he had put some time previously he was assured that a lighter cart would be supplied. These carts were perfectly useless on account of their great weight, and a year ago it was stated that a lighter cart was being tried. He asked for an assurance-that that was so.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETAEY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Lord STANLEY, Lancashire, Westhoughton)said that that I was now being done. Lighter carts were now being tried, and there was also a scheme of motor cars being inquired I into, and no doubt something would be done with them.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid the only unsatisfactory thing in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman was that part in which he stated that some names had to be considered before action was taken. Those words, he thought, would convey an entirely different meaning to that; which the right hon. Gentleman intended to convey.
  MR. BRODRICKsaid that in a question of conspiracy it was necessary to consider whether the evidence justified the inclusion of a particular person in the charge. The decision would be reached in a day or two.
  *MR. WEIRsaid he thought he would be in order in drawing attention to the question of the ships used for transport, which in some cases had been kept four months without being unloaded, with the result that £276,000 had had to be paid by the War Office in respect of demurrage. That showed the unsatisfactory manner in which these matters were conducted by the War Office. He would like to know what had been done to those responsible for that state of things. Their salaries ought to be reduced, and they should be given work of a totally different character since they had shown such utter incompetence.
  LORD STANLEYsaid there had been no scandal such as the hon. Member had tried to make out. There were two great difficulties to contend with in landing stores in South Africa. In the first place there was the difficulty, from want of sufficient dock and quay accommodadation, in getting vessels alongside at Port Elizabeth and East London, and there was the further difficulty of storage on the quays. Ships came in rapidly from all parts of the world, and it was impossible to know exactly the day on which a particular vessel would arrive. It often happened that stores sent off as urgent
  548
  were less urgent when they reached South Africa, and others had become more urgent and had to be taken first. The consequence was that demurrage claims arose and could not be avoided, from the fact that the officers at the port unloaded those stores that were being particularly asked for.
  2. Motion made and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £16,066,000, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge for provisions, forage, and other supplies, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903."
  COLONEL NOLANasked what proportion of foreign as compared with Irish meat was supplied to the troops in Ireland. The £230,000,000 which had been expended on the war was not all lost as far as England was concerned, because a large portion of it was merely a transfer from one class of men to another; but in Ireland the whole of it was lost, because practically nothing was spent in that country. It was certainly unfair that, in a country which produced so much beef, foreign I meat should be introduced to so large an extent.
  MR. DILLONreferred to the South African meat contracts and the connection of Sir F. Forestier - Walker with the Cold Storage Company. That officer was for some time General of Communications, and when last spring it was publicly announced that he had become a director of the company a Question was asked in the House, to which the reply was that Sir F. Forestier-Walker was on half-pay, and therefore the War Office had no control over him; and when the subject was mentioned in debate the noble Lord said Sir F. Forestier-Walker had nothing to do with the making of the meat contract, and that it was made by Lord Kitchener. But shortly afterwards, in the Committee on Public Accounts, when the Question was asked, the War Office representative said Sir F. Forestier-Walker was responsible for the contract. If that was so, and seeing that within a few months that officer

  549
  appeared as director of the company, it had the appearance of a scandal not to he tolerated. Further, the hon. Member took the opportunity of once more protesting against the refusal of the Government to institute a separate inquiry into these war contracts. To mix up the inquiry with the great matter of military operations would render it ineffective, coming as it would so long after the events. Unless the inquiry was hot-foot on the scandal it would not meet the evil; it would simply cloak the matter up. Such inquiry should follow immediately upon the scandal being known, or the lesson would be lost, it was not denied that the Cold Storage Company received 11d per lb. for meat which at the time could have been bought on the quays at 3¼d. per lb. He had it from Mr. Bergl that he could have supplied the meat at 5½d. and have made a fair profit. In the interest of the Treasury, of the great spending Departments, arid of the public, inquiry should be instant and searching. The laxity and indifference in the Departments were almost incredible, and the House of Commons inquiry should be used to control contractors, for the Treasury was but a broken reed for the purpose. His faith in the power of the Treasury to safeguard public economy on a large scale had been rudely shaken by the phenomenon recently witnessed. Estimates were submitted, based on the expected continuance of the war for a further six months. The war suddenly ended, and the whole estimates were recast. No doubt it was expensive to bring a war to an end, but would any man believe that if estimates were recast on a peace footing they would come out at the same amount even to sixpence? The thing was preposterous, and simply showed that the estimates were not prepared in the manner the Committee were led to believe they were.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLcalled attention to the treatment of horses at Stollenbosch. According to a letter he had received, a gentleman, high in favour with the Government, Major F. J. Ryder, of the 3rd Dragoon Guards, the Inspector of Remounts in Cape Colony, collected 1,500 horses after the war was technically over. These horses were commandeered
  550
  from all the neighbouring farms at the lowest possible price. They were then placed in kraals and fed with chaff, with the result that between August and November 600 of them either died from glanders or other diseases, or had to be shot. One of the most abominable features of the war had been the vile cruelty to dumb animals. Although some millions of money was voted for fodder, these horses were fed on chaff. There was, however, no saving to the public purse from the starvation of these animals, because money was simply ladled into the hands of the Hausers and the Studderts.
  LORD STANLEYcould not add much to the reply given to the hon. Member at Question time, hut he could say that, as a general rule, glanders was not a disease that a horse caught through eating chaff. If 600 horses were shot for glanders it was the cheapest way the officer responsible could have disposed of them, for anything more infectious and anything more difficult to detect could not trouble any one in charge of horses. He assured the hon. Member for East Mayo that Sir Frederick Forestier-Walker had nothing to do with the making of the contract with the Cold Meat Storage Company. He joined its board after he had ceased to be on full pay. When he went on half pay the War Office would not he justified in interfering with any directorship he might think fit to take.
  MR. DILLONasked whether the noble Lord declared on his own knowledge that Sir. F. Forestier-Walker had nothing to do with making the contract.
  LORD STANLEYsaid he could not on his own knowledge, but he was certain that Sir Frederick Forestier-Walker would do nothing that would justify any suspicion being thrown on his good faith. The meat contracts would he gone into by the Commission. [" When?"] He hoped as soon as possible. No people were more anxious than the War Office people that those contracts should be investigated, and then they would find |out how false were the suspicions always showered on the civilians of the War Office when this subject was mentioned.
  *SIR ARTHUR HAYTERendorsed what had been said of Sir Frederick Forestier-Walker by the noble Lord, and

  551
  said the Public Accounts Committee, after examining into this subject, were left with the impression that Colonel Richardson was the effective officer who made the contract. The Public Accounts Committee were quite of opinion that a mistake had been made in allowing 11d. a lb. to be charged when part of the meat was frozen, but there was a repayment made by the Cold Storage Company, and it was shown that the great expense then was due to the difficulty of distributing when it had to follow the troops on the march, the whole expense of transport having to be paid by the Cold Storage Company.
  MR. LOUGHpointed out that the contract, which started about March, was to extend over a year, a certain quantity of meat being delivered each week. He desired to know whether the contract contained any Clause by which it could be terminated in the event of the conclusion of the war, and what steps the Government had taken in the matter. He asked whether there was any clause in the meat contract which would have enabled the Government to terminate the contract before the end of the war.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid the point raised by the hon. Member had already been answered. It was, of course, obvious that no direct censure could be made on the Government with reference to the matter which had just been discussed across the floor of the House, but in justice to his hon. friend who opened the matter he did not think they should all sit quiet and accept the answer which had been given upon it. Certainly there were many Members in this House who felt that the gentleman referred to ought not to have accepted the position he did immediately on his return. With regard to what the hon. Member for East Mayo said as to contracts in general, no doubt the Treasury was not very useful in time of war. The Treasury was silent in time of war. That made it all the more necessary that there should be an adequate investigation into the circumstances of these contracts. He hoped the investigation by the Royal Commission would be carried out on the plan
  552
  which the words of the First Lord a few nights ago suggested, namely, that the Commission would divide itself into Sub-Commissions, and that one small Sub-Commission would specially investigate the question of contracts.
  COLONEL NOLANsaid he did not believe the question of contracts could be properly inquired into except by a Committee of the House of Commons. The great superiority of a Committee of this House, consisting of say twenty members, as compared with a Royal Commission, was that they were so accessible to every shade of public opinion. There was, no doubt, a desire on the part of the War Office to cloak over what had happened in connection with the war. There never was a war in which there were not irregularities in the matter of contracts. They know what happened in the Peninsular war and the Crimean war. It was probable that in the South African war there had been gross mismanagement, and in some cases peculation and swindling,.
  MR. CAWLEYthought that a Committee of the House of Commons would be the best body to inquire into the question of contracts. There was an uneasy feeling in the country that there had been a great deal of corruption going on in the matter of contracts. It was not altogether a question of punishing the people who had been guilty of dishonesty and corruption but it was a question of preventing similar occurrence in future. If these contracts were not closely looked into people would say, when the next war took place, that there was a lot of money to be made in this way, and that they would take the risk. He did not think the country would be satisfied until a Committee of this House had investigated the whole matter.
  *MR. WEIRsaid the noble Lord the Financial Secretary of the War Office had given an extremely unsympathetic reply in regard to the way the horses were fed. The horses were fed on chaff, and the noble Lord said that was a satisfactory method of feeding.
  LORD STANLEY: I said nothing of the kind.
  *MR. WEIRsaid he gathered from the noble Lord's silence that he approved of feeding the horses on chaff. He admitted that 600 horses suffered from glanders and were destroyed. Did the noble Lord say that chaff was a proper thing to feed horses on?
  LORD STANLEY: I never said chaff was a proper thing to feed horses on. We do not know that these horses were fed only on chaff. We only know that they had glanders.
  *MR. WEIRsaid he had reason to believe that the horses were fed on chaff, although £4,000,000 was provided for the purpose of purchasing proper and suitable food. He hoped the inquiry which was to take place would be pushed through and not allowed to drag on during the next two or three years. Mr. Bergl, towards the close of the war, contracted to supply meat at 5½d. per lb. The contract with the Cold Storage Company was to supply meat at lid. per Ib. They agreed to a reduction of 2d. per lb., but if they had allowed 4d. or 5d. it would have been nearer the mark. The fact that General Forestier-Walker became a director of the Cold Storage Company was not satisfactory, look at it whatever way they liked. The hon. Member called attention to a charge of £1,859 for coal which was sent to Capetown, where, being condemned as useless, it was sold for £370. That was attributable to a mistake on the part of an officer who ordered the wrong description of coal. Was no notice to be taken of that matter by the Treasury or the War Office? Was the officer promoted or pensioned off? Unless he got a satisfactory reply in regard to this sum of about £1,500, he would divide the Committee. He moved the reduction of the Vote by £100.
  Motion made and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £16,065,900, be granted for the said Service."—(Mr. Weir.)
  LORD STANLEYsaid that with regard to the question asked by the hon. Member for South Donegal it was not possible to give any further answer to that which had already been given.
  554
  With regard to the loss on a consignation of coal the hon. Member did not give the reason for it.
  *MR. WEIR: I beg pardon. I gave as the reason the stupidity of the officer.
  LORD STANLEYsaid he could not allow that for a moment. The officer made an error in telegraphing home from South Africa by omitting to state the kind of household coal that was required. In view of the enormous pressure of work at the time he could not look upon that as a serious dereliction of duty. There was no provision in the meat contract for stopping it at the end of the war.
  *SIR ARTHUR HAYTERappealed to the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty not to divide the Committee upon this matter, which had practically nothing to do with this Vote.
  *MR. WEIRsaid it was absurd for the noble Lord to say he had only heard of this matter recently. When was action to be taken? Never, he supposed. The answer of the noble Lord was so unsympathetic that he was compelled to press his Amendment.
  MR. LOUGHthought a new fact had been elicited which the Committee ought to take into consideration. They had heard that this contract was made in March last, when peace was supposed to be at hand—a year after they had been told that the war was over—and yet there was no clause to enable the contract to be terminated even when the war terminated. This was a great reflection on the management of those at the head of affairs at the War Office. It was a most extraordinary mistake to make, and he hoped there were not many contracts which were made under the same conditions.
  MR. BRODRICKsaid the hon. Member on business matters generally spoke in a business spirit. Under the circumstances in which this contract was made, did he suppose any body of men would come forward and invest a large amount of capital in cold storage buildings if there was the possibility of the contract being terminated in a month or two if the war came to an end? Surely the

  555
  most satisfactory thing was to give them a definite contract for a year. After all, when we reduced our Army from 200,000 to 100,000 we naturally reduced our demands, and the loss was the contractors and not ours.
  (6.3.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 74; Noes, 149. (Division List No. 352.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William(Cork, N. E.)

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Ambrose, Robert

  Hayden. John Patrick

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Bell, Richard

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Bolton, Thomas Dolliug

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Breadhurst, Henry

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Burns, John

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Caldwell, James

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Leamy, Edmund

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Carew, James Laurence

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Roberts, John Bryu (Eifion)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Levy, Maurice

  Roche, John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lloyd-George, David

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Lough, Thomas

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Crean, Eugene

  Lundon, W.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Culliman, J.

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Tennant, Harold John

  Delany, William

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Tully, Jasper

  Dillon, John

  Mooney, John J.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Murnaghan, (George

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Murphy, John

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nolan, Col. John P.(Galway, N.)

  Gilhoolv, James

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  TELLERES FOR THE AYES—

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Mr. Weir and Mr. Flavin.

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Ed'n

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. WG. Ellison

  Bigwood, James

  Flower, Ernest

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Bond, Edward

  Gardner, Ernest

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Brigg, John

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Maxwell, WJH (Dumfriessh're

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w

  Bull, William James

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Butcher, John George

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

  Campbell, Rt Hn J. A. (Glasgow

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Nicol, David Ninian

  Cavendish, V. C. W, (Derbyshire

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Parker, Sir Gilbert

  Chapman, Edward

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hoult, Joseph

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Keswick, William

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Kimber, Henry

  Purvis, Robert

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Stroyan, John

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Wilson. J.W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Ure, Alexander

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R (Bath

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Wallace, Robert

  Wylie, Alexander

  Smith,. James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Spear, John Ward

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Webb, Col. William George

  Sir William Walrond and

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Resolution agreed to.

  3. £3,970,000, for Clothing Establishments and Services.
  *MR. CHANNINGcalled attention to the contracts for boots, which largely affected the interests of the constituency which he represented. Those boot contracts were not only largely given to Northamptonshire firms, but also to Bristol, Leicester, London, and other places in the United Kingdom. He was not only speaking for himself, but for the country at large. And further, the amount contracted for was this year only £695,000 in value, as compared with an estimate of £1,076,000 for the previous year. This made the case he wished to make very much stronger. The noble Lord would remember that Questions were addressed to him earlier in the year with regard to certain contracts which had been entrusted to the Cawnpore factory for the supply of boots, and that 300,000 pairs had been ordered from that factory, to be distributed over three years. That contract consequently would go on for the next two and three-quarter years, and what he contended was that, owing to the lessened demand because of the cessation of hostilities in South Africa, that contract would press more hardly now upon the home district than before. He wished to know whether any further contracts were being entered into by the War Office with this factory at Cawnpore or with any other extraneous source, because he thought it would be extremely hard on the home industry if further contracts of that kind were given out without specially grave and imperative reasons
  558
  for their being so given. Of course, it the beginning of the war, when it was found that a vastly larger number of troops would be required in South Africa than was at first expected, it was excusable that the War Office should have gone to India if they could not get the supply they required in time from the home sources. There may have been some ground for that at that time, but he took exception to such a contract being entered into in the third year of the war, when the amount of the boots required must be a diminishing and not an increasing quantity. These Indian boots were made of a much lighter and less durable leather. That was his information. It might or might not be true but he submitted that there must lie something in it. The workmanship was exceedingly imperfect, and he was assured by the manufacturers that, supplied at the rate at which those boots were presumably being supplied, the profit was very much greater than any English manufacturer could obtain. He was also assured by the manufacturers that undue preference was given to the Indian manufacturer, and that British manufacturers had not been allowed to tender for boots of the same pattern at anything near the price which was being paid to the Cawnpore factory. The boots were a combination of hand-sewn and machine work. He understood that, if allowed, English manufacturers could tender at almost the same price as was being paid, and he gathered, from a former reply, that some trial of English boots so made was to be granted, and he wished, in that case, to know the results. He urged that there should be greater elasticity allowed to manufacturers in tendering, so that they might compete with these extraneous sources of supply, and, if possible, bring

  559
  the whole trade back. Another point against these Cawnpore factory boots had been, as he was informed, that the inspection was absolutely ineffective, and that large quantities of boots which had been rejected by the inspector were, directly the agent's back was turned, re-introduced into stock and sent into the depot. It was also alleged that military officials in town were directly interested in the factory. There might or might not be something in these allegations, but if there was, some drastic investigation ought to be made into the facts.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHERsaid the hon. Member opposite had opened out what was, no doubt, a very important subject. He had complained that the supplies required by the War Office had been obtained outside this country, but he did not draw the distinction in this matter which he might have done. Nevertheless, the hon. Gentleman had made some advance towards Protection, because he, and those who believed with him generally, laid down the doctrine that the public purse ought to have that privilege of buying in the cheapest market which the individual was supposed to possess. He only noticed that distinction because the hon. Gentleman, who represented the boot-making interest, and who had now discovered that his constituents were being ruined, not by the casual purchase of boots by the War Office, but by foreign competition which had made such great havoc in the boot trade, had only half stated his case. The hon. Member's constituents were loudly complaining of the importation into this country of boots from the other side of the Atlantic and elsewhere, and he tried to get out of the difficulty by raising this side issue. What the hon. Member should set himself to do was to obtain the imposition of reasonable duties on articles which interfered with British industries.
  LORD STANLEYcongratulated the right hon. Member on being able to tack his favourite subject on to a debate on Army Estimates. With regard to the question of the hon. Member opposite, he might say that a particular kind of boot lasted better and had been found more comfortable than another for the men in South Africa; and it was adopted as the
  560
  standard pattern. The home manufacturers could not come up to the requirements of the Army; and the War Office had to go to India or to fall back on a pattern which had proved less satisfactory. After consultation with the officials connected with the supply of boots for the Army, he came to the conclusion that the best thing would be to give a contract to India for a certain quantity of boots for three years, by which time the home manufacturers-might be expected to meet the full requirements of the Army; and meanwhile the War Office took all the boots that the home manufacturers were able to tender for. Then it was found that a modification in the process of manufacture was possible, and that it enabled the home trade to supply much larger quantities. Immediately as much of the contract with India as had not been allotted was stopped; but it was still necessary to depend on India for a portion of the supply. The first care of the War Office would be to get the boots for the Army from the home manufacturers; and resort to India had only been had because the home manufacturers could not ensure the full supply which was necessary.
  MR. BRIGGsaid he did not know much about Army matters, but he did know something about cloth. Supplies to the Army were of two kinds. The Government were supplied with materials and did their own making up, and they were supplied with ready-made materials. He expressed the opinion that the ready-made articles were not properly inspected, and he had come to the conclusion that it was absolutely necessary that another inspector should be appointed by the noble Lord. Considering the advantages to be derived from adopting the course he had suggested, he was quite sure the right hon. Gentleman would be wise in making further advances in that direction, which would not entail so much labour upon his own establishment.
  *COLONEL WELBYasked what were the probabilities or the possibilities of the whole of the uniforms of the Army being put upon a practical and businesslike basis. He wished to know whether the whole matter was to be gone into, and

  561
  whether the changes which were decided on were to be made at once, or were they going to be carried out by that long time-honoured system of petty changes, such as the altering of a button one year, and a sword-knot the next. These vexatious changes never led to any good result in the long run. He wished to know whether the now forage cap of the Foot Guards was intended to be useful or ornamental. It seemed to miss being either. Why was it not possible to have a smart uniform for full dress and a practical working dress for service? He was present at the Coronation at Moscow, and he saw the Life Guards there dressed in far smarter uniforms than they would see their own Life Guards at the approaching Coronation. He found that they were wearing a special State dress, besides which they had provided for them a working dress and a less smart full dress, and in addition to these there was a thorough and complete uniform ready for war in stock. So that in war this magnificent Russian regiment would appear in a working dress in which they would hardly be distinguishable from a regiment of the line. Why should not something of the kind be provided for the British Army? They did want a smart uniform for their soldiers, because ours was a voluntary army, and they did not want their soldiers to be laughed at. Why should there not be a State dress provided for the regiment, and at the same time allow them to have a good working dress? Much blame had been bestowed on the training of the troops in South Africa, and especially on their slowness to take cover. He believed that that defect was due to the clothes in which they had been trained. Men would not crawl about on the ground at Aldershot and spoil fine clothes. It was a mistake to combine the smart and the practical, as we had attempted to do. If cavalry were to do dismounted work effectively, they must be given a thoroughly practical working dress, such as men wore when they went deer-stalking. Nobody thought of wearing tall hats and frock coats for such a business. Now was the time to take this question in hand. He hoped in the future that the right hon. Gentleman would not allow those little tiny changes which had been made in the past in the uniforms to take the place of a thorough reform, which would put the uniform in the British Army on a good sound basis, and make it permanent.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid he agreed with what had been said by the hon. and gallant Member who had just sat down in reference to a good serviceable dress being required for the Army. He, however, desired to speak about the underclothing provided for the troops, and more especially flannel shirts and socks. These articles were ridiculously short in the supply during the war in South Africa. He was told that during the war the soldiers were given a full supply of socks and flannel shirts, and he gathered that the right hon. Gentleman was going to continue this system of giving a full supply. He hoped that promise would be carried out. This was one of the things which had had a considerable effect upon the recruiting. The soldier had been told on joining the Army that his clothes would be provided, but he found out afterwards that he did not get the clothes that were necessary. This had given a bad impression and had had a bad effect on recruiting. He hoped this matter would be taken in hand and a proper supply of these articles given to the regular troops in the future both at home as well as abroad. There was also the question of making the clothing in the factory. He was glad to see that the Factory Vote had increased, and that the amount of clothing bought outside had decreased. In the past ready made-clothing had been a great source of sweating, and the dreadfully low wages paid by some of the contractors for clothing had in the past been brought prominently before the House. There was no doubt that in the case of the clothing made in their own factory more decent wages were paid and the opportunities for sweating were considerably less. He desired to congratulate the War Office upon having made this change.
  LORD STANLEYsaid all cloth was inspected when it came in, and all cloth when it had been made up into clothes was again inspected before being issued. He thought that statement met the point raised by the hon. Member for the Keighley Division. In reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Taunton he stated that it had already been decided that there should be throughout the Army two kinds of dress. There would

  563
  be the smart dress of parade, and there would be in addition a service dress, in which a man would do most of his work, and in which, if necessity arose, he could go away on active service. He would have a duplicate of this dress in stock, and he would have a new suit of the service dress plus that which he had actually been wearing. With regard to the question of the caps, he did not agree that they were so very ugly, and he thought it probable that they were very comfortable. In reply to the hon. Member for Lichfield he said that the abolition of the 2d. stoppage was to a large extent intended to cover the shortage of shirts and socks. The Government were giving to recruits an increase both of shirts and socks, but in regard to the rest of the Army they relied upon the abolition of the 2d. stoppage to make good any deficit.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERdid not think anybody thought this extra 2d. when it was granted was meant to cover such things as clothing. The meaning of it was understood to be that a man, when he first joined the Army, got a certain amount of clothes, and afterwards he had to supply some of these articles himself. The providing of flannel shirts and socks was a heavy charge upon a soldier, which would not be covered by this extra 2d. He did not mean to move a reduction in this Vote, but he thought something would have to be done in this direction, and the War Office should at once face the difficulty. He was sure the Committee would not allow this kind of thing to go on year after year, and another year he should press the matter further.

  CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES, 1902–3.

    CLASS V.
    Motion made and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £395,093, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for Grants in Aid of the Expenses of the British Protectorates in Uganda and in Central and East Africa, and in Somaliland, and under the Uganda Railway Acts, 1896 and 1900."
    SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he would confine his remarks to asking certain questions of the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. On one of the various items contained in the Vote he did not propose to say anything upon this occasion, for in regard to the Uganda Railway he fancied the noble Lord would have to make a statement before long. In reference to the grant in aid of the revenue of Uganda he wished to ask the noble Lord whether he had any fresh statement to make to the Committee. He desired to have some information respecting the Uganda and British East Africa Protectorates. He said that at one moment the Government seemed to look forward to a merging of the two protectorates. Since then he believed a change of boundary had been effected and that a capital had been chosen, which might be the capital of the two united protectorates if they were merged together. New facts brought home to us lately showed that great devastation had been wrought in Central Africa by the wars which had been carried on since we first went into that country. In a work newly published on the foundation of British East Africa it was pointed out that the population of Unyoro had been reduced by the wars since we had anything to do with the country to one-fourth of what it formerly was. Sir Edward Lugard stated with regard to West Africa that—
    "Throughout Africa East and West much injustice and oppression has been unwittingly done by our forces acting on crude information. Patient and unwearying investigation by properly trained officers with good interpreters is the only way of checking these forms of oppression."
    Up to the present the chief complaint against the Foreign Office had been that they had not had a proper service of officers who understood the native languages. He believed that the perpetual series of wars they had had to face in British East Africa and Somaliland had been the direct result of this bad system of government. He next wished to ask certain questions with regard to the British Central Africa Protectorate. Up to the last Report many of them were left under the impression that it was the-one bright exception in Africa, that it was the one great success on which they might congratulate themselves. The

    565
    Report now before them hardly bore that out. No doubt there was the serious difficulty of obtaining a market for the tropical products owing to the difficulty of transit, and this prevented the products from competing with the tropical products in other parts of the world produced under conditions far more favourable. If they could not make the West Indies pay they could not make this country in the heart of Africa pay. For these reasons he believed it would be difficult to make the produce of Central Africa profitable. The last Report published this year showed that coffee was a failure. It had failed through one of the diseases of the coffee plant, and there was an account of the means being taken now in this favoured protectorate to carry on tropical production to which he desired to draw the attention of the Committee. They were told in the latest Report upon the condition of British Central Africa Protectorate that—
    "A revised scheme of hut tax will be put in force in 1902. Natives in the settled districts' who cannot produce satisfactory evidence that they have done one month's work for a European employer during the past twelve months will pay, instead of the ordinary tax, one fixed at a higher rate."
    That was a very dangerous principle, and it appeared to him to be one of those indirect means of forcing the natives to labour, of which not only all those interested in the welfare of the natives but also the working classes had frequently expressed their disapproval. They objected to this mode of obtaining labour. Another item in this Vote was that for British East Africa, and in this case they had no new facts to go upon. The old conditions still existed there, and once more he had to call attention to the fact that the legal status of slavery still continued in British East Africa, and this was a disgrace to their rule, and was condemned by all the best and most competent administrators. This state of things was carried on in a country which was practically a British colony. Sir Edward Lugard in his last Report had very properly claimed credit for our administration, that in the course of last year they had been able to abolish the legal status of slavery in West Africa. They knew what his
    566
    opinion was with regard to British East Africa, for his Reports had stated for years past that they ought to have got rid of the legal status of slavery in British East Africa. Sir Edward Lugard had done this in another part of Africa where the difficulties were equally as great as in British East Africa. Our responsibilities in British East Africa were as direct as in any portion of the British Empire. With regard to Sir Arthur Hardinge, he had always held that he was out of place in British East Africa on account of the retrograde opinions ho held on this subject, which he had very frankly put before the House of Commons. Sir Arthur Hardinge had written a paper on "Legislative Methods in the Zanzibar and East Africa Protectorates" and it was contained in the studies of the Society of Comparative Legislation, of which the Clerk of this House was the editor. He says—
    "The British East Africa Protectorate is directly administered by the British Foreign Office through a Commissioner and Consul-General, who is at the same time political agent at Zanzibar."
    He states that—
    "The territories comprised in the protectorate are ruled directly under Her Majesty by the British officers in charge of them."
    It had been alleged that in this case there were special difficulties, but Sir Arthur Hardinge himself had pointed out that—
    "In practice, many of the enactments made in modern times under British pressure by the Sultans of Zanzibar are in flat contradiction to the law of Islam."
    He further states—
    "Thus an enactment in itself illegal becomes legal and binding oil the subjects it held by the doctors of the Mohammedan law to come within this category; and they themselves have no scruple about applying it."
    He thought it might be taken from this evidence that they were perfectly able to abolish the legal status of slavery in British East Africa if they chose to do so. He did not think it could be contended that this was a protectorate in anything but name. In the Report of August last year upon this protectorate, which was the last Report issued, the following words were used by our own administrator—
    "Though the coast strip is still theoretically part of the Sultan's dominions, it is practically almost as much under British administration as India."

    567
    In India they had been able to abolish every trace of the legal status of slavery, and if British East Africa was as much under our rule as India, surely the time had come when the legal status of slavery might be abolished in British East Africa. The administrator went on to say—
    "Within the ten-mile strip the law recognises the institution of domestic slavery. It is, no doubt, disagreeable to say this of any country administered by British officials; but the evil of the position lies almost entirely in words and not in facts. Anything like slave trading, or the sale of slaves, is punished by the severest penalties, and no persons born after 1890 are born as slaves, or can by any means become slaves. But in the case of such persons as were slaves before 1890 the law nominally recognises the status of slavery— that is to say, if a master and a slave appear before the court, the law takes account of their relation as master and slave, and does not set it aside as illegal and void."
    It was no use, he supposed, to address the House of Commons upon a subject upon which it had made up its mind. The debates they had had on this question year after year showed that the House of Commons had made up its mind, but they would be false to themselves and to their convictions and policy in every other part of the world if they did not take the opportunity every year of uttering their protest against the continuance of the legal status of slavery in British East Africa. In conclusion, he wished to ask the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he could tell them what was the present state of things in Somaliland in regard to the war which was going on there. They had had no information upon that subject lately, and he thought the noble Lord ought to give some information to the House upon this subject.
    MR. DILLONdrew attention to the great increase in the Estimates for Uganda, and said that although many millions had been spent upon it they had never yet had any statement from the noble Lord indicating whether Uganda would ever be a source of profit to this country. He did not see that there was any rational hope for trade in that direction, at least to any considerable extent. Last year, the grant in aid was £93,000, and this year it was £244,000. What
    568
    was the cause of that enormous increase? He wished to know also why British East Africa should be charged with the deficiency on a railway provided to serve Uganda.
    THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Lord CRANBORNE, ROCHESTER)said that a good deal of the apprehension of the hon. Member for East Mayo would be dissipated when he realised what, evidently, the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean had already realised, that there had been a change in the boundary between Uganda and British East Africa. When it became clear that the railway was approaching completion, it seemed to His Majesty's Government that, in the interests of good administration, it would be far better that the whole of the area to be served by the railway should be within one administration; and, consequently, the Foreign Office moved the former boundary between Uganda and British East Africa westward, so as to embrace all the country which I the railway traversed in one protectorate —namely, the East African Protectorate. Now, under the new state of I things, the boundary was coterminous with the eastern shore of the lake. That, of course, carried with it a considerable re-arrangement as well. The right hon. Baronet asked as to the frame of mind of the Foreign Office in respect of the much larger question of the complete amalgamation of the two protectorates. They had given very close attention to that subject, and he was not sure that he could say that even now the moment for a definite decision had arrived; but, undoubtedly, they had not abandoned hope that before long there would be an amalgamation between the two protectorates. For many purposes that had already taken place. The Post Office and the Customs were amalgamated. So much, indeed, was the administration already amalgamated that he would invite the Committee, when considering the finances of the I protectorates, to consider East Africa and Uganda as one fiscal unity. If they did that, he believed the hon. Member for East Mayo would find that

    569
    there had not been so great an increase in the grants in aid as he seemed to imagine. The excess over last year was £114,000, which was accounted for b; special charges in connection with the Uganda Railway and the steamers on the lake, which were, of course, de pendent on the railway. They were taking a sum of £57,000 for the provision of two steamers on the lake They were taking slightly over £6,000 for a survey of the lake, and, in addition, £50,000 for the working expense of the railway during the ensuing year The Committee undoubtedly were en titled to, and would receive, a full ex planation of the extra money which was being asked for on behalf of the Uganda Railway. But, having regard to the hour and also to the fact that it would be necessary for the Government to come with a special demand for more money for the Uganda Railway, he would suggest that the time and convenience of the Committee would be best served by his not dealing with that very important subject at that moment. The Committee might rest assured that there was no desire whatever on the part of the Government to conceal the matter from them, and when the time arrived he hoped he should be able to satisfy the House that the additional money which would be asked for should be granted. There had not been a large trade with Uganda yet, but he would like the Committee to realise that what trade there was was mostly with this country or with the dependencies of this country. If they excluded, as they ought to exclude, Government imports and Uganda Railway material, and took merely the general imports, it would be found that 63 per cent, of the imports came either from this country, from India, or from some other British dependency.
    MR. DILLON: Will the noble Lord give the total value?
    *LORD CRANBORNEsaid the total value of the general imports was £ 415,000. It was a small beginning, of course, but they hoped that when the country was opened up, as it would be now by the railway and by the steamers which would bring traffic to the railway,
    570
    they would be able to show a still better balance-sheet. The right hon. Baronet had said it was a matter very much to be regretted that their presence in that country had led to a large diminution in the population. Undoubtedly there had been some very serious fights in the past in these Protectorates; but although the figures of the right hon. Baronet had astonished him, he should hesitate to admit that all they conveyed was due to the presence of the British Government in East Africa. He entirely agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that it was most necessary that their civil servants, and, indeed, their military servants too, out there, should be enabled, by a knowledge of the customs and the language of the people, to avoid those opportunities for friction which led to these wars and their regrettable results. The right hon. Baronet expressed the opinion that the prosperity of British Central Africa was on the wane. He did not think so. Undoubtedly the revenue did not show quite so well as it did last year; but they were starting a second tobacco factory there, and it was hoped that, by the assistance of the South African market, this would prove a source of industry for the people and of revenue to the Government. The great want was that of labour. Nearly the whole of the labour of the Protectorate was taken up in the transit trade from the Zambesi to the Central Lakes. That was a tremendous strain on their resources; but they hoped before long that the energy of private individuals would have produced in British Central Africa a railway which might take the place of these porters, and might release the labour they so much required, and save time to both the transit trade and the trade of the locality—which was so much o be desired. As to the question of slavery on the British East African main-land, he admitted that the principle was bad, but the application of the principle was a very small one. Let him say this, lowever—that slavery in the form in which it showed itself in East Africa was as unlike the slavery they had been brought up to hate and abhor as one thing could be unlike another. The sale of and traffic in slaves was absolutely forbidden by law; and, in short, he might ay that exactly the same spirit that had dictated the abolition of slavery in all

    571
    other parts of the world whore the British Government had power, had in this case diminished the institution of slavery in all. its more objectionable features almost to the vanishing point. There were very few slaves left. They were rapidly dimishing, and in a very short number of years the institution would have ceased altogether. He had only one word to say with respect to Somali-land. Undoubtedly they were disappointed in regard to their expedition against the Mad Mullah. They had hoped that, once they had met the Mad Mullah and had beaten him, they should have completely destroyed his prestige, and that he would vanish as a disturbing force in Somaliland. That was not so, and it became absolutely necessary to re-undertake the expedition against him. They were fortunate enough to secure the services of Colonel Swayne, who had been so successful in dealing with the Mullah before, and they gave him a free hand. Colonel Swayne had driven the Mullah away from our frontier, and he had retired into the Italian sphere, many miles south of our frontier. Colonel Swayne was now in pursuit of him. They had this great advantage on the present occasion, that they were enabled to work in complete co-operation with the Italian Government, who had given Colonel Swayne permission to cross into their sphere of influence. They might hope before long to be able to announce to the House the destruction of the Mullah. In the meantime he could say nothing beyond the fact that His Majesty's Government thoroughly approved of all the steps Colonel Swayne had taken.
    MR. FLYNNreferred to the increasing cost of the Administration of these Protectorates, and to the fact that in the future they had all the elements of uncertainty. He likened the policy of the Government to that of a man who took out policies of insurance upon which the premiums were more than his full income.
    It being half-past Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
    Resolutions to be reported Tomorrow; Committee also report Progress; to sit again this evening.

EVENING SITTING.

  SUPPLY.
  [22ND ALLOTTED DAY.]
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER, Cumberland. Penrith, in the chair.]

  CIVIL. SERVICES ESTIMATES, 1902–3.

    CLASS I.
    1. Motion made, and Question proposed. "That a sum, not exceeding £118,409, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March. 1903, for the Survey of the United Kingdom, and for minor services connected therewith."
    SIR BARRINGTON SIMEONsaid he was extremely sorry to have once more to trouble the Committee with the grievances of the temporary civil assistants of the Ordnance Survey Department. By an Act passed in 1859, the Ordnance Survey was recognised as a permanent Department of the Civil Service but by a decision of the Lords Commissioners all persons who entered after the 29th September, 1870, were deprived of the superannuation privileges enjoyed by permanent civil servants after the completion of ten years service. The Treasury Minute was based on representations of Sir Henry James, the then Director General of the Ordnance Survey Department, that the work of the Survey would be finished by the year 1880 and that the men going after 1870 could not possibly earn the right to a pension. But the work did not finish at the time predicted, and it was still going on with greater efficiency than ever, while he would think that recent events in South Africa would provide plenty of room for surveys, for the next two or three generations. In January, 1873, fifty-seven temporary civil assistants who had joined since September, 1870, were admitted to the permanent list, but the privilege was refused to those who joined afterwards, and who were employed on precisely the sameconditions. Undoubtedly many of these had joined

    573
    under the impression that after a certain number of years service, they would be pensioned, and he maintained that it was not made sufficiently clean to them by the authorities that they would not get a pension. They spent the best part of their lives on work which had to be performed under difficult conditions. The labour was hard, and they were liable to be discharged for infirmity. They were apt to suffer from the failure of eye-sight. These wages were not sufficiently high to enable them to make provision for old age; they were compelled to keep up a decent appearance, to dress themselves well, and to educate their children. He had in his mind the case of a man with many years unexpired service. The Treasury had declined to give him any compensation because of the recommodation of the Commission which sat in 1888, in order to repeal Clause 7 of the Act of 1859. In 1888 that man had twenty years service; he bore an unblemished character; he was eventually discharged because of the completion of his duty, he lost all his years of employment, and got no pension of any description. Was it fair that the decision of the Committee of 1888 should have been made to have retrospective action as in his case? Certainly that Commission recommended that cases of individual hardship which were likely to arise might be avoided by transferring the officer to another department, but that had not been done in this man's case. He lost fourteen years service, and after twenty years of work he was turned off without any compensation at all. The President of the Local Government Board, who, in the last Parliament, was President of the Board of Agriculture, in 1899 expressed himself distinctly favourable to the claims, of these temporary assistants; and promised to submit a scheme on their behalf to the Treasury but unfortunately he had ceased to hold that position. He had always felt that the present President of the Board of Agriculture was the one stumbling block to pensions being granted in these cases. The right hon. Gentleman was then Financial Secretary to the Treasury; and when the holder of that office was opposed to a financial proposal, its chances became very slender indeed. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman really
    574
    believed that these temporary assistants were not proper persons to receive pensions, but he would appeal to his sense of justice. The right hon. Gentleman had lately visited Southampton and seen these men at their work; he was able to note that the pensioned and the non-pensionable classes were engaged on exactly the same class of labour, receiving the same wages, and yet, when they had spent the best years of their lives on it, one set were sent adrift without any means of support, while the others were pensioned off. As long as he was a Member of that House he. would press for justice for those men.
    MR. ARTHUR LEEsaid he wished to make an appeal on behalf of a very deserving part of his constituents. These temporary civil assistants, or, as they were commonly called, labourers, of the-Ordnance Survey Department at Southampton had a very real grievance, not only in the rate of wages paid to them, but also in the absence of the pension. He understood they were told they would have no pension, because their rate of wages was so high- But their rate of wages was exactly the same as those men who received pensions, and he failed to see why they should be deprived of the privilege which was extended to more fortunate men on the list. It had been said that pensions could not be granted to temporary assistants, but one man had been employed for forty-five years. These men were employed as continuously as those who had the same work and drew the same wages and had a pension. If it was decreed they should not have a pension, he-thought it was only fair their wages should be raised. He thought it had been decided by a Committee that their wages should be raised, and it was only fair that the matter should be seriously considered by the right hon. Gentleman. These men were doing a very difficult and skilled class of work, and they deserved more consideration than the mere name of labourer would denote. The hon. Member for Southampton had put the case very clearly, and he only rose for the purpose of seconding the appeal he had made. He felt sure, if the right hon. Gentleman would return a sympathetic reply and take some

    575
    sympathetic action in line with their request, that he would be only doing justice to a very deserving and hard-worked -section of the community.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OK AGRICULTURE (Mr. HANBURY, Preston), in reply, said some little misapprehension appeared to exist in regard to the real facts of the case, The principal reason why the service was made non-pensionable was that already in 1861 this had been done in the case of the labourers, and in 1870 it was considered right to abolish the distinction between the labourers and the civil assistants, whose work was of much the same character, and in order that the manufacturing establishments might all be treated on similar lines. Notice was given accordingly. Three years later, on January 4th, 1873, a circular was sent to all the divisions of the service saying that the Government had made up their minds that the service in future was not to be pensioned, and that the men who entered between 1870 and 1873 were not to receive pensions. It was said, however, and apparently not without reason, that the notice was not properly communicated to them, and thereupon a grievance arose. The grievance went on from 1873 to 1894, when it was at last remedied by a Government with a small majority. But how was it remedied? The usual course would have been to say, "You shall have your pension, provided you agree to a reduction of salary.'' But that was not done; the pension was granted, and the full salaries were continued. The remedy applied to the men who entered between 1870 and 1873. when full notice was given to the civil assistants that pensions would not be paid in future to those entering the service. Directly the other civil assistants, who joined after 1873, heard what was done they started a grievance of their own. They said, "Here are these men doing the same work as we are doing, drawing the same salary, and getting a pension in addition, and we ought to be treated as they are." But there was no doubt whatever in the case of these men on the ground of want of notice. When they entered,
    576
    it was made perfectly clear to them that no pensions would be granted in the future, and consequently they were in a totally different position. In the Civil Service examination this preliminary pensionable service was done away with, and in any communication addressed to any civil assistant he was always addressed as a temporary civil assistant. That being the case, the men were not in the same position as the men who entered in 1870 or 1872, and they were being paid the salary which it was stipulated they should receive on entering the service. Further, the advantages of the service had been considerably increased over anything that had been promised. The men had received more holidays; at least a week had been added in addition to the holidays they received on entering the service. Then they had sick pay at higher rates, and a large number of pensionable posts had been created which were not in existence when the men entered the service. One out of every five of the men could, by mere duration of time, if they discharged their duties satisfactorily, rise to these pensionable posts. That was, of course, a very distinct advantage. Then, again, the wages had been considerably increased since 1873. In 1892 a Departmental Committee inquired into the grievances of the men so far as salaries were concerned. That Committee reported that the salaries had been considerably increased since 1873; and that, therefore, they could not conscientiously recommend a further increase. Even since 1892, however, the wages had been increased, and the Director General assured him that, although the maximum was not raised, the average rate of wages had considerably increased, while the men were receiving considerably higher wages than six years ago. Their hours of work were also shorter than was the case with outside trades; so that, as far as personal claims went, these servants had no case. Did his hon. friend mean that men temporarily employed in the public service should be put in the pension list? That system would not work, and did not exist in any other branch of the service. The labourers in the Department had not asked for pensions, although there was a very narrow distinction between them and the civil assistants.

    577
    Why should there be a distinction drawn between these servants and other Government manufacturing establishments in the matter of pension? The other manufacturing establishments were conducted on the same lines with regard, to pension as the Ordnance Survey. Then it was said that the number of pensionable posts was not large enough; but the Government had gone as far as they could in that direction. It was not a question of this Department only, but it was fa question of the whole policy which was to be in existence with regard to all manufacturing establishments of the Government; and he could not undertake on behalf of one Department to break away from the rule which governed all these establishments. But, even supposing that the Treasury agreed that all the manufacturing Departments should be given pensions, would the clients of his hon. friend agree to the; corresponding reduction of salary which would follow? No; what was asked for were pensions with existing salaries. Even, however, if all the Government manufacturing Departments were pensionable, and if the clients of his hon. friend agreed to a reduction in salary, there was one further difficulty in regard to the Survey Department which did not arise n the case of any other Department. In 1914 the Survey would come to an end, and the service would be reduced from 1,600 to about 800 or 900 men. It would then be a permanent service— there would be a regular establishment; and if the question of pensions was to come up at all, then would be the time for its consideration. How could the question be dealt with now, when in a few years there was to be a reduction of staff to the extent of 50 per cent.? How was it possible to say which men would be permanently employed? If 800 were selected, a state of discontent and grumbling would be created among the rest. All or none would have to be pensioned. To pension all would work to the detriment of the service, and involve a vast waste of public money. Was it to the advantage of the State that this enormous expenditure should be incurred, or that, by pensioning one half of the men, a state of discontent should be created among the rest? The adoption of the latter alternative would inflict a gross injustice upon the men not selected.
    578
    He had studied this question from the point of view both of the Financial; Secretary to the Treasury and of the President of the Board of Agriculture. Speaking in the latter capacity, as the employer of these men, he would, if he could, have made out a case for pensions. But his duty was not to send into the Treasury such a claim unless he thought, it could be reasonably sustained. These men were well paid; they entered the service with full knowledge of its condition; those conditions had since been greatly improved; and he could not see what personal claim they had. From the point of view of public policy, he failed to see why, this being a manufacturing Department of the Government, the people there employed should be treated differently from those employed in other manufacturing establishments. He had carefully considered everything that had been said in favour of this demand, but on the merits of the case he could not conscientiously ask the Treasury to depart from the decision at which they had: arrived.
    *MR. WEIRmoved to reduce the Vote by £100, on the ground that the deer forests in the Highlands were not shown on the ordnance maps. There ought to be a true survey of every yard of land in the United Kingdom. Instead of a decrease of £500, as was the case this year, there ought rather to be an increase.
    Motion made and Question proposed,. "That a sum, not exceeding £118,309, be granted for the said Service."— (Mr. Weir.)
    MR. DALZIELwas surprised that the right hon. Gentleman, had not attempted to reply to the complaint of his hon. friend. It seemed, to be part of the Ministerial policy with regard to Scottish matters to sit silent until the closure was applied, instead of giving the information which had been asked for in a proper way.
    MR. HANBURYunderstood the hon. Member's grievance was that the Highlands 1 were not surveyed on the 25-inch scale. The hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty had asked that deer forests should be marked on these maps. There was nothing of the kind on the other maps, and there appeared to be no

    579
    special reason why an exception should be made in this case. If the hon. Member would state some special reason why it should be done he would take care that the request received consideration.
    *MR. WEIRsaid he communicated with the right hon. Gentleman on the subject, but his answer was not satisfactory.
    (9.58.) Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 109; Noes, 189. (Division List No. 353.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E

    Hayne, Rt. Hn. Sir Chas. Seale-

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    O'Mara, James

    Bell, Richard

    Horniman, Frederick John

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Partington, Oswald

    Brigg, John

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Priestley, Arthur

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Jones, William Carnarvonshire

    Rea, Russell

    Caldwell, James

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Law, Hugh Alex, (Donegal. W)

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Leamy, Edmund

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Cawley, Frederick

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Levy, Maurice

    Roche, John

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Crean, Eugene

    Lloyd-George, David

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Cremer, William Randal

    Lough, Thomas

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Cullinan, J.

    Lundon, W.

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Dalziel, James Henry

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Tennant, Harold John

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

    Delany, William

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Thomson, F.W. (York, W.R.)

    Dilke, Right Hon. Sir Charles

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Dillon, John

    Mooney, John J.

    Tully, Jasper

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Ure, Alexander

    Doogan, P. C.

    Moss, Samuel

    Wallace, Robert

    Edwards, Frank

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Elibank, Master of

    Murnaghan, George

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Emmott, Alfred

    Murphy, John

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    White, Luke, (York, E. R.)

    Farrell, James Patrick

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

    Whiteley, George (York. W. R.

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Norman, Henry

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Flynn, James Christopher

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Grant, Corrie

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.).

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow.'W

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Harrington, Timothy

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Mr. Weir and Mr. John

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Dewar.

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Butcher, John George

    Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

    Carlile William Walter

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

    Cavendish, V.C. W. (Derbyshire

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Balfour. Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Chapman, Edward

    Finch, George H.

    Balfour, Kenneth K. (Christch.

    Charrington, Spencer

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Bigwood, James

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

    Fison, Frederick William

    Bill, Charles

    Cog' hill, Douglas Harry

    Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Flower, Ernest

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bain bridge

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Gardner, Ernest

    Bull, William James

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Gibbs. Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond.

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent)

    Scott, Sir S (Marylebone, W,)

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

    Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

    Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Smith, AbelH. (Hertford, East)

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Greene, W. Raymond-Cambs.)

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Spear, John Ward

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Spencer, Sir K. (W. Bromwich)

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Max well, W.J. H. Dumfr'sshire

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

    Hamilton, RtHnLordG. (Mid'x

    Melville, Beresford

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Valentine Milvain, Thomas

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Montagu. G. (Huntingdon)

    Stroyan, John

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Moon Edward Robert Pacy

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Morton, Arthur H.A. (Deptford

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Higginbottom. S. W.

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Valentia, Viscount

    Hoult, Joseph

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Houston, Hobert Paterson

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

    Peel. Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Webb, CoIonelWilliam George

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Penn, John

    Welby, Lt.-Col, A, C. E. (Taunt'n

    Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

    Kenyon. Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Willox, Sir. John Archibald

    Keswiek, William

    Pretyman, Ernest, George

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Kimber, Henry

    Pryce-Jonos, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Purvis, Robert

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

    Randles. John S.

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.

    Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Wilson-Todd, Win. H. (Yorks)

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hu. E.R. (Bath

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Remnant, James Farqubarson

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Wylie, Alexander

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W.H.

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Robinson, Brooke

    Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Rutherford, John

    Sir William Walrond and

    Lowe, Francis William

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Mr. Anstruther.

    Lowther, C. (CumK, Eskdale)

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    (10.8.) Original Question put.
    The Committee divided:— Ayes, 208; Noes, 101. (Division List No. 354.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Butcher, John George

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

    Carlile, William Walter

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Carson, Et. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Dewar, Sir T. R. (TowerHm'lets

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Dilke, lit. Hon. Sir Charles

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

    Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Balfour, Rt. Hn GeraldW (Leeds

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

    Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Chapman, Edward

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Charrington, Spencer

    Finch, George H.

    Bigwood, James

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Bill, Charles

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Firbauk, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Fison, Frederick William

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Flower, Ernest

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Cox, Irwin Edwin Bainbridge

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick. SW

    Bull, William James

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Lon Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford

    Gardner, Ernest

    Lowe, Francis William

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Gibbs, Hn. AGH. (City of Lond.

    Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Godson. SirAugustus Frederick

    Lowther, Rt. Hn. James (Kent

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.

    Lyttleton, Hon. Alfred

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isleof Wight

    Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

    Macartney, Rt. Hn. WGEllison

    Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)

    Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Goschen, Hn. George Joachim

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Spear, John Ward

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Spencer, Sir E. (W, Bromwich)

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.

    Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Milvain, Thomas

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Hamilton, Rt. Hn. LordG (Mid'x

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Stroyan, John

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W.

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Morgan, David J. (Walth'aist'w

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Tennant, Harold John

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Morton, Arthur H.A. (Deptford

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Mount, William Arthur

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

    Tufnell, Lieut-Col. Edward

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Valentia, Viscount

    Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Hoult, Joseph

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Warner, Thomas Conrtenay T.

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Peel, Hn. Wm. RobortWellesley

    Welby, Lt-Col. A.C.E. (Taunton

    Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

    Penn, John

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyue

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Kenyan, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Keswick, William

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Wilson, A, Stanley (York, E. R.)

    Kimber, Henry

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Purvis, Robert

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

    Randles, John S.

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath

    Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Wylie, Alexander

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas Thomson

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Robinson, Brooke

    Loder, Gerald Walter Eveskine

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Sir William Walrond and

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

    Rutherford, John

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

    Emmott, Alfred

    MacDonnall, Dr. Mark A.

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Farrell, James Patrick

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Bell, Richard

    Flynn, James Christopher

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Brigg, John

    Gilhooly, James

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Grant, Corrie

    Mooney, John J.

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Caldwell, James

    Harrington, Timothy

    Moss, Samuel

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Carew, James Laurence

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Scale

    Murnaghan, George

    Cawley, Frederick

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Murphy, John

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Crean, Eugene

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Nolan, Col. John P (Galway, N.

    Cremer, William Randal

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Cullinan, J.

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Norman, Henry

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Leamy, Edmund

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Delany, William

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Levy, Maurice

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Dillon, John

    Lewis, John Herbert

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    Doogan, P. C.

    Lloyd-George, David

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Edwards, Frank

    Lough, Thomas

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Elibank Master of

    Lundon, W.

    O'Kelly. James (Roscommon, N.

    584

    585

    O'Mara, James

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Shipman, Dr John G.

    Weir, James Galloway

    Partington, Oswald

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Sullivan, Donal

    Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

    Priestley, Arthur

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Whiteley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Rea, Russell

    Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings)

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eition)

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Tully, Jasper

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Ure, Alexander

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Roche, John

    Wallace, Robert

    Sir Thomas Esmonde and

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Captain Donelan.

    It being after Ten of the clock, the Chairman, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 28th of April, put severally the Questions, That the total amount of the Votes outstanding in each Class of the Civil Service Estimates, and the total amount of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, the Army, and the Revenue Departments, be granted for the Services defined in those Classes and Estimates.

    Class I.
    (10.19.) 2. Motion made and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding£976,691, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st of March, 1903, for Expenditure on the following Services included in Class I of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz:—

    £

    3. Houses of Parliament Buildings, Supplementary

    5,500

    4. Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain

    26,800

    £

    5. Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

    27,300

    6. Diplomatic and Consular Buildings (including a Supplementary sum of £1,800)

    29,400

    7. Revenue Buildings

    221,000

    8. Public Buildings, Great Britain (including a Supplementary sum of £12,500)

    236,200

    10. Harbours under the Board of Trade

    12,061

    11. Peterhead Harbour

    18,000

    12. Rates on Government Property (including a Supplementary sum of £32,000)

    288,258

    13. Public Works and Buildings, Ireland

    112,172

    £976,691

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 201; Noes, 112. (Division List No. 355.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Carlile, William Walter

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Carson. Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Faher, George Denison (York)

    Allhusen, Agustus Henry E.

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Fellowes. Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Arnold-E'orster, Hugh O.

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Finch, George H.

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Balcarres, Lord

    Chamberlain, J Austen (Wore'r

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

    Chapman, Edward

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

    Charrington, Spencer

    Fison, Frederick William

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Fitz Gerald, Sir Robt. Peurose-

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks

    Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

    Flower, Ernest

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick. SW

    Bigwood, James

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Galloway, Philip Johnson

    Bill, Charles

    Collings, Ro. Hon. Jesse

    Gardner, Ernest

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

    Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H. (City of Lond.

    Bond, Edward

    Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Cranborne, Lord

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Bull, William James

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

    Butcher. John George

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (lsleof Wight

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Milvain, Thomas

    Spear, John Ward

    Haslett. Sir James Horner

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

    Hatch, Ernest. Frederick Geo.

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Heath, ArthurHoward (Hanley

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Mount, William Arthur

    Stroyan, John

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

    Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Hoult, Joseph

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Nieol, Donald Ninian

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil

    O' Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Valentia, Viscount

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Keswick. William

    penn, John

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Kimber, Henry

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Webb, Col. William George

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E (Taunt'n

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Whiteley, H (Ashton-und-Lyne

    Lee, Arthur H. (Hants. Fareham

    Pryee-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Purvis, Robert

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Randles, John S.

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S.

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Ritchie, Rt. H n. Chas. Thomson

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

    Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Wolff, Gustav wilhelm

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Wylie, Alexander

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Robinson, Brooke

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Lowe, Francis William

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Lowther. C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent

    Rutherford, John

    Lyttellon, Hon. Alfred

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Macartney, Rt Hn W.G. Ellison

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Sir William Walrond and

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Mr. Anstruther.

    Maconochie, A. w.

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

    NOES.

    Abraham. William (Cork, N.E.

    Edwards, Frank

    Lundon, W.

    Ambrose, Robert

    Elibunk, Master of

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Emmott, Alfred

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Farrell, James Patrick

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Bell, Richard

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    M'Laren, Sir Chas. Benjamin

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Flynu, James Christopher

    Mansfield. Horace Rendall

    Brigg, John

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

    Mooney, John J.

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Gilhooly, James

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

    Grant. Corrie

    Moss, Samuel

    Caldwell, James

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Harrington, Timothy

    Murnaghan, George

    Carew, James Laurence

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Murphy, John

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Norman, Henry

    Crean, Engene

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Cremer, William Randal

    Jameson. Major J. Eustace

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid

    Cullinan, J.

    Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Dalziel, Jamas Henry

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    Leamy. Edmund

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Delany, William

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Levy, Maurice

    O'Kelly. Jas. (Roscommon, N.

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Lewis, John Herbert

    O'Mara, James

    Dillon, John

    Lloyd-George, David

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Doogan, P. C.

    Lough, Thomas

    Partington, Oswald

    588

    589

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Sullivan. Donal

    Weir, James Galloway

    Priestley, Arthur

    Tennant, Harold John

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Rea, Russell

    Thomas, David Alf red (Merthyr

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

    Redmond. John E. (Waterford

    Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

    Whittaker, Thomas palmer

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Wilson, Henry J. (York. W.R.

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Tully, Jasper

    YoxalL James Henry

    Roche, John

    Ure, Alexander

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Wallace, Robert

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Sir Thomas Esmonde and

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

    Captain Donelan.

    Class II.
    (10.31.) 3. Motion made and Question put, "That a sum, notexceeding£785,944, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included in Class II. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1. House of Lords Offices

    4,657

    2. House of Commons Offices

    13,044

    3. Treasury and Subordinate Offices

    50,851

    5. Foreign Office

    35,150

    6. Colonial Office

    26,100

    7. Privy Council Office

    7,390

    8. Board of Trade

    127,465

    9. Mercantile Marine Services

    66,826

    10. Bankruptcy Department of Board of Trade

    7

    16. Local Government Board

    135,323

    17. Lunacy Commission

    10,140

    18. Mint, including Coinage

    16

    19. National Debt Office

    7,300

    20. Public Record Office

    14,060

    21. Public Works Loan Commission

    11

    £

    22. Registrar General's Office

    29,524

    24. Woods, Forests, &c., Office of

    14,135

    25. Works and Public Buildings Office

    36,650

    26. Secret Service

    25,000

    SCOTLAND.

    28. Fishery Board

    10,097

    29. Lunacy Commission

    3,075

    30. Registrar General's Office

    4,530

    31. Local Government Board

    8,945

    IRELAND.

    32. Lord Lieutenant's House hold

    2,812

    34. Department of Agriculture

    88,245

    35. Charitable Donations and Bequests Office

    980

    36. Local Government Board

    40,031

    37. Public Record Office, Ireland

    3,253

    38. Public Works Office

    20,327

    £785,944

    The Committee divided;—Ayes, 199; Noes, 115. (Division List No. 356.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F.

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Cranborne, Lord

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Bull, William James

    Davenport, William Bromley

    Allhusen. Augustus H'nry Eden

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Davies. Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Batcher, John George

    Dewar, Sir T.R (Tower Hamlets

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Carlile, William Walter

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy

    Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cavendish, V.C. W (Derbyshire

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Balfour. Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Fellowes. Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

    Finch, George H.

    Banbnry, Frederick George

    Chapman, Edward

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Beach, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Charrington, Spencer

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Bigwood, James

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Fison, Frederick William

    Bill, Charles

    Cochrane, Hon. Thomas H. A. E.

    Fitzgerald, Sir Robert Penrose

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Bond, Edward

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Flower, Ernest

    Boseawen, Arthur Gtimth

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Foster, PhilipS. (Warwick, S.W

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Colomb, Sir John Chas, Ready

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Brodrick. Rt. Hon. St. John

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Gardner, Ernest

    Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H (City of Lond.

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

    Saunderson, Rt. Hn Col. Edw. J.

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

    Gore, Hn G.R.C. Ormsby- (Salop

    Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. Ellison

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Simeon, Sir Harrington

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East.)

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Spear, John Ward

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.

    Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Milvain, Thomas

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Morgan, David. J (Walthamst'w

    Stroyan, John

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Hay, Hon, Claude George

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Mount, William Arthur

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Hoult, Joseph

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Valentia, Viscount

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Parker, Sir Gilbert

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

    Penn, John

    Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunt'n

    Johnston, Heywood (Sussex)

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u. -Lyne)

    Keswick, William

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Kimber, Henry

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York. E. R.)

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Purvis, Robert

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Lawrence, Sir Joseph Monm'th

    Randles, John S.

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

    Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Wylie, Alexander

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Robinson, Brooke

    Long. Col. Charles W. (Evesham

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    TELLERS FOE THE AYES—

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Rutherford, John

    Sir William Walrond and

    Lowe, Francis William

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork. N. E.

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Law, Hugh Alex (Donegal, W.

    Ambrose, Robert

    Doogan, P. C.

    Leamy, Edmund

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Edwards, Frank

    Levy, Maurice

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Elibank, Master of

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Emmott, Alfred

    Lloyd-George, David

    Brigg, John

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    Lough, Thomas

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Farrell, James Patrick

    Lundon, W.

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Burns, John

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Caldwell, James

    Flynn, James Christopher

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S)

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Carew, James Laurence

    Gilhooly, James

    Mooney, John J.

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Grant, Corrie

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

    Cawley, Frederick

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Moss. Samuel

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Harrington, Timothy

    Murnaghan, George

    Crean, Eugene

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Murphy, John

    Cremer, William Randal

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Nannetti, Joseph p

    Cullinan, J.

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

    Davies, James Henry

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Norman, Henry

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Delany, William

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    592

    593

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    Roche, John

    Warner. Thomas Courtenay T.

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Weir, James Galloway

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    White, Luke (York, E.R.)

    O'Mara, James

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Whiteley, George (York. W.R.

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Partington, Oswald

    Tennant, Harold John

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Priestley, Arthur

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

    Rea, Russell

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Tully, Jasper

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES — SIR

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Ure, Alexander

    Joseph Leigh and Mr.

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Wallace, Robert

    Bell.

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Class III.
    (10.41.) 4. Motion made, and Question put, "Thata sum, notexeeeding£l, 597,024, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment daring the year ending on the 31st clay of March, 1903, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included in Class III. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1. Law Charges

    32,131

    2. Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

    22,274

    3. Supreme Court of Judicature

    180,929

    4. Land Registry

    25,202

    5. County Courts

    26,000

    9. Broad moor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    22,635

    SCOTLAND.

    10. Law Charges arid Courts of Law

    54,287

    11. Register House, Edinburgh

    27,071

    £

    12. Crofters' Commission

    2,990

    13. Prisons

    51,131

    IRELAND.

    15. Supreme Court of Judicature and other Legal Departments

    59,000

    16. Land Commission

    78,153

    17. County Court Officers, &c.

    64,858

    18. Dublin Metropolitan Police

    54,417

    19. Royal Irish Constabulary

    769,185

    20. Prisons

    68,641

    21. Reformatory and Industrial Schools

    54,587

    22. Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    3,533

    £1,597,024

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 197; Noes, 117. (Division List No. 357.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Bull, William James

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Dewar. Sir T.R. (Tower Hamlets

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

    Carlile, William Walter

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

    Finch, George H.

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

    Chapman, Edward

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Charrington, Spencer

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Fison, Frederick William

    Bigwood, James

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

    Bill, Charles

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Flower, Ernest

    Bond, Edward

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W.

    Boscawen, Arthur Griftith-

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Gardner, Ernest

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Davenport, W. Bromley

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby (Salop

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

    Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Lyttelton. Hon. Alfred

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Macartney. Rt. Hn. W.G. Ellison

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Macdona, John Gumming

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrews bury)

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Smith. Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Spear, John Ward

    Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Maxwell, W. J. H (Dumfriesshire

    Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

    Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Milvain, Thomas

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

    Stroyan, John

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford)

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Mount, William Arthur

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

    Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Hoult, Joseph

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Valentia, Viscount

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Peel, Hon. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Penn, John

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C.E- (Taunton

    Keswick, William

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Kimber, Henry

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

    Purvis, Robert

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Randles, John S.

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareham

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E.R. (Bath)

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Wylie, Alexander

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Robinson, Brooke

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol. S.)

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES —

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Rutherford, John

    Sir William Walrond and

    Lowe, Francis William

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

    Delany, William

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Ambrose, Robert

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Dillon, John

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Bell, Richard

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Doogan, P. C.

    Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Edwards, Frank

    Leamy, Edmund

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Elibank, Master of

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Burns, John

    Emmott, Alfred

    Levy, Maurice

    Butcher, John George

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Caldwell, James

    Farrell, James Patrick

    Lloyd-George, David

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    Lough, Thomas

    Carew, James Laurence

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Lundon, W.

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Flynn, James Christopher

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Grant, Corrie

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Crean, Eugene

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Mooney, John J.

    Cremer, William Randal

    Harrington, Timothy

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Cullinan, J.

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Moss, Samuel

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Murnaghan, George

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Murphy, John

    596

    597

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Priestley, Arthur

    Tully, Jasper

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

    Rea, Russell

    Ure, Alexander

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Wallace, Robert

    Norman, Henry

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Weir, James Galloway

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Roche, John

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Yoxall, James Henry

    O'Mara, James

    Tennant, Harold John

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

    Partington, Oswald

    Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Mr. Eugene Wason and

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Mr. Mansfield.

    Class IV.
    (10.53.) Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £599,538, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for expenditure in respect of the following services included in Class IV. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.—

    IRELAND.

    £

    10. Public Education

    595,748

    11. Endowed Schools Commissioners

    525

    12. National Gallery

    965

    13. Queen's Colleges

    2,300

    £599,538

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 201; Noes, 113. (Division List No. 358.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

    Cochrane, Hn. Thomas H. A. E.

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Allhusen, Agustus Henry Eden

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Colcomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Cox, Irwin Edw. Bainbridge

    Hamilton, RtHnLordG. (Mid'x

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wn.

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Davenport, W. Bromley

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Balcarres, Lord

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Ch'th'm

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Dewar, Sir T.R. (Tower Hamlets

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Heath, Arth. Howard (Hanley

    Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Kdwin

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Bigwood, James

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Hobhouse, Hy. (Somerset, E.)

    Bill, Charles

    Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

    Hope,. J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    Hoult, Joseph

    Bond, Edward

    Finch, George H.

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Fison, Frederick William

    Jessel, Capt- Herbert Merton

    Bull, William James

    FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose-

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Flannery, Sir Forteseue

    Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh

    Butcher, John George

    Flower, Ernest

    Keswick, William

    Carlile, William Walter

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick SW

    Kimber, Henry

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Galloway. William Johnson

    Lambton, Hn. Frederick Wm.

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Gardner, Ernest

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

    Gibbs, Hn. A.G. H (Cityof Lond.

    Lawrence, Sir Jos. (Monm'th)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Godson, Sir Agustus Frederick

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Lee, ArthnrH. (Hants., Fareh'm

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

    Gore, HnG. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Chapman, Edward

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Charrington, Spencer

    Goschen, Hon. Geo. Joachim

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S.

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Greene, Henry D (Shr'wsb'ry

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A R,

    Loder, Gerald walter Erskine

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Stroyan, John

    Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Long, Rt Hn Walter (Bristol, S

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Lowe, Francis William

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Tollemache, Hemy James

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Purvis, Robert

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

    Lowther, Rt. hn. Jas. (Kent)

    Randies, John S.

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Rapch, Major Frederick Carne

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Macartney, Rt Hn W.G. Ellison

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Valentia, Viscount

    Macdona, John Gumming

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Webb, Colonel William Geo.

    Majendi, James A. H.

    Robinson, Brooke

    Welby, Lt-Cl. A. C. E. (Taunton

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

    Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.

    Royds, Clement Molynenx

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Rutherford, John

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Milvain, Thomas

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York E.R.

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Saunderson, Rt Hn. Col. Edw. J.

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

    Morrell, George Herbert.

    Seely, Chas. Hinton (Lincoln)

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks

    Morton. Arthur H. A. (Deptford

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (I. of Wight

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

    Mount, William Arthur

    Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Wylie, Alexander

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

    Smith, Abel H. (Hereford, E.)

    Wyndham-Quinn, Major W.H.

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Spear, John Ward

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Stanley, Hn Arthur (Ormskirk

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Sir William Walrond and

    Peel, Hn. W. Robt. Wellesley

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Mr. Anstruther.

    Penn, John

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, NE.

    Harrington, Timothy

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Ambrose, Robert

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Hayne. Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale

    O'Mara, James

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Bell, Richard

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Partington, Oswald

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Brigg, John

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Priestley, Arthur

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

    Jones, William (Camarvonsh

    Rea, Russell

    Burns, John

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    Caldwell, James

    Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Leamy, Edmund

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

    Carew, James Laurence

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Levy, Maurice

    Roche, John

    Cawley, Frederick

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Lloyd-George, David

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Crean, Eugene

    Lough, Thomas

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Cremer, William Randal

    Lundon, W.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Cullinan, J.

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Tennant, Harold John

    Dalziel, James Henry

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    M'Laren, Sir Chas. Benjamin

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

    Delany, William

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Dowar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Mooney, John J.

    Tully, Jasper

    Dilke, Rt, Hon. Sir Charles

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

    Ure, Alexander

    Dillon, John

    Moss, Samuel

    Wallace, Robert

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Doogan, P. C.

    Murnaghan, George

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Edwards, Frank

    Murphy, John

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

    Elibank, Master of

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Weir, James Galloway

    Emmott, Alfred

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    Nolan, Joseph (Lonth, South)

    Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

    Farrell, James Patrick

    Norman, Henry

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Wilson, Henry J. (Work, W.R.

    Flynn, James Christopher

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tip'r'ry Mid

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Grant. Corrie

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W

    Mr. Channing and

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Mr. J. H. Whitley.

    Class V.
    (11.3.) 6. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £2,090,714, be granted to His Majesty to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for expenditure on the following services included in Class V. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.—

    £

    1. Diplomatic and Consular Services

    277,570

    2. British Protectorates in Uganda, &c

    395,093

    3. Colonial Services

    1,260,051

    7. Treasury Chest Fund

    158,000

    £2,090,714

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 206: Noes, 108. (Division List No. 359.)

    Class VI.
    (11.18.) 7. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £330,240, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included in Class VI. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.—

    £

    1. Superannuation and Retired Allowances

    327,950

    £

    2. Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions

    1,200

    3. Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances

    658

    4. Hospitals and Charities, Ireland

    432

    £330,240

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 198, Noes, 115. (Division List No. 360.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Finch, George H.

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

    Allhusen, Angus H'nry Eden

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Lowe, Francis William

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Fison, Frederick William

    Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

    Arrol, Sir William

    Fitz Geiuld, Sir Robert Penrose-

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

    Flower, Ernest

    Macartney, Rt. Hn W.G. Ellison

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Balcarres, Lord

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Gardner, Ernest

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H. (City of Lon.

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Beach, Rt. Hn Sir Michael Hicks

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, So.

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Gore, Hn. G R C Ormsby-[Salop

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Bigwood, James

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Maxwell. W J H (Dumfriesshire

    Bill, Charles

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Milvain, Thomas

    Bond, Edward

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Camb's.

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

    Bull, William James

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Mount, William Arthur

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Ld. G. (Midd'x

    Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

    Butcher, John George

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

    Carlile, william Walter

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

    Carson, Rt Hon Sir Edward H.

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Norman, Henry

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Heath, Arthur-Howard (Hanley

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

    Chapman, Edward

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

    Penn, John

    Charrington, Spencer

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Hoult, Joseph

    plummer, Walter R.

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Pretyman. Ernest George

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

    Purvis, Robert

    Conen, Benjamin Louis

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Randles, John S.

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

    Johnstone, Heywood (Su-sex)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T, (Denbigh)

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Keswick, William

    Ritchie, Rt Hon Chas. Thomson

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Kimber, Henry

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Cnatham

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Robinson, Brooke

    Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

    Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool)

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham

    Rutherford, John

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick NS

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Lockwood, Lt. Col. A. R.

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (lsleof Wight

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskirie

    Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

    Tufnell, Lieut. -Col. Edward

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

    Spear, John Ward

    Valentia, Viscount

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Wylie, Alexander

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Wnydham, Rt. Hon. George

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Webb, Col. William George

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Stroyan, John

    Wellby, Lt. -Col. A C E (Taunton

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Whiteley, H. (Asht'n und. Lyne

    Sir William Walrond and

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

    O'Shauglmessy. P. J.

    Ambrose, Robert

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Partington, Oswald

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Priestley, Arthur

    Bell, Richard

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Rea, Russell

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    Brigg, John

    Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifiion)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Kearley, Hudson, E.

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

    Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Burns, John

    Leamy, Edmund

    Roche, John

    Caldwell, James

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Campbell, John (Armagh S.)

    Levy, Maurice

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Carew, James Laurence

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Lough, Thomas

    Sullivan, Donal

    Cawley, Frederick

    Lundon, W.

    Tennant, Harold John

    Channing, Francis Allston

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings)

    Crean, Eugene

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

    Cremer, William Randal

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

    Cullinan, J.

    Mooney, John J.

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

    Tully, Jasper

    Delany, William

    Moss, Samuel

    Ure, Alexander

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Wallace, Robert

    Dillon, John

    Murnaghan, George

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Donelan, Capt. A.

    Murphy, John

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

    Doogan, P. C.

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Weir, James Galloway

    Edwards, Frank

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Elibank, Master of

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

    Emmott, Alfred

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, N.) Mid

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Farrell, James Patrick

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary. N.)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Flynn, James Christopher

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N.

    Mr. Dalziel and Mr.

    Harrington, Timothy

    O'Malley, William

    Corrie Grant.

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Mara, James

    Acland-Hood, Capt, Sir Alex. F.

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Peel, Hn. Win. Robert Wellesley

    Allhusen. Augustus H'nry Eden

    Coulding, Edward Alfred

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Arrol, Sir William

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

    Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Purvis, Robert

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Randles, John S.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Beach. Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Bigwood, James

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Robinson, Brooke

    Bill, Charles

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Blendell, Colonel Henry

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.)

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Bond, Edward

    Hope, J.F. (Shelneld, Brightside

    Rutherford, John

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Hoult, Joseph

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Scott, Sir S. (Maryleboue, W.)

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

    Bull, William James

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Jessel. Captain Herbert Merton

    Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

    Butcher, John George

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Simeon, Sir Harrington

    Carlile, William Walter

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Keswick, William

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Kimber, Henry

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford. East)

    Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Spear, John Ward

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

    Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

    Lawrence, Wm F. (Liverpool)

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Chapman, Edward

    Lee, ArtburH. (Hants, Fareham

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Charrington, Spencer

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Stroyan, John

    Clive. Captain Percy A.

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A.E.

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Sturt, Hon. Humphrey Napier

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesh'm

    Tomlinson, Sir wm. Edw. M.

    Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Tufnell, Lieut. Col. Edward

    Cranborne, Lord

    Lowe, Francis William

    Valentia, Viscount

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Dewar, Sir T. R. (Tower Hamlets

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Macartney, Rt Hn W.G. Ellison

    Webb, Colonel William Geo.

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Welby, Lt.-Col. ACE (Taunton)

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    M'Arthnr, Charles (Liverpool)

    Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Finch, George H.

    Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfries-sh.

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Milvain, Thomas

    Wilson. J. W. (Worcestersh., N.

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Wilson-Todd, Win. H. (Yorks.)

    Fison, Frederick William

    Moon, Edward Robert pacy

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Fitzgerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

    Morgan, DavidJ. (Walth'mst'w

    Wolff; Gustav Wilhelm

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Wylie, Alexander

    Flower, Ernest

    Morton. Arthur H. A. (Deptf'rd)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Foster Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

    Mount, William Arthur

    Wyndham-Quiu, Major W. H.

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

    Gardner, Ernest

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Gibbs, Hn. A.G. H. (City of Lond.

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Sir William Walrond and

    Gordon. J. (Londonderry, South

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Mr. Anstruther.

    Gore, HnG.R.C. Ormsby- (Salop

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.)

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Brigg. John

    Ambrose, Robert

    Bell, Richard

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Bolton. Thomas Dolling

    Brown, Geo. M. (Edinburgh)

    606

    607

    Burns, John

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Caldwell, James

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Priestley, Arthur

    Carew, James Laurence

    Jones, William (Carnarvonsh'e

    Rea, Russell

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    Cawley, Frederick

    Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Leamy, Edmund

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Crean, Eugene

    Levy, Maurice

    Roche, John

    Cremer, William. Randal

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Cullinan, J.

    Lundon, W.

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Dalziel, James Henry

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Shipman, Dr. John G

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    Sullivan, Donal

    Delany, William

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Tennant, Harold John

    Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Thomas, DavidAlfred (Merthyr

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Mooney, John J.

    Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings)

    Dillon, John

    Moss, Samuel

    Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W.R.)

    Doogan, P. C.

    Murnaghan, George

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Edwards, Frank

    Murphy, John

    Tully, Jasper

    Elibank, Master of

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Wallace, Robert

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    Nolan, Col. John P, (Galway, N.)

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Farrell, James Patrick

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Ferguson, R. C. Mucro (Leith)

    Norman. Henry

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Weir, James Galloway

    Flynn, James Christopher

    O' Brien, Kendal (Tippera'y Mid

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Whiteley. George (York, W. R.)

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Grant, Corrie

    O'Connor, James (Wieklow, W.

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Harrington, Timothy

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Malley, William

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    O'Mara, James

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Mr. Lough and Mr. Llody

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Partington, Oswald

    Morgan.

    Class VII.
    (11.28.) 8. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £191,835, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included in Class VII. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.—

    £

    1. Temporary Commissions

    22,000

    2. Miscellaneous Expenses

    15,418

    £

    3. Repayments to the Local Loans Fund

    25,141

    4. Coronation of His Majesty (including a Supple mentary sum of £25,000)

    125,000

    5. Repayments to the Civil Contingencies Fund

    4,276

    £191,835

    Ihe Committee divided:—Ayes, 199,. Noes, 112. (Division List No. 361.)

    AYES.

    Acland- Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Bigwood, James

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Bill, Charles

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Allhusen, Augustus H'nry Eden

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

    Anson, Sir William Reynell

    Bond, Edward

    Chapman, Edward

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Charrington, Spencer

    Arrol, Sir William

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Clive, Captain Percy A.

    Bagot, Capr. Josceline Fitz Roy

    Brotherton, Edward Allen

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Bailey, James (Walworth)

    Bull, William James

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Balcarres, Lord

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds

    Butcher, John George

    Collings, Rr,. Hon. Jesse

    Balfour, Kenneth R.(Christch.)

    Carlile. William Walter

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Banbury, Frederick Georage

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbndge

    Bearch, Rt Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Cautley, Henry Strother

    Cranborne, Lord

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshre

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

    Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

    Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Dewar, Sir T. K. (T'w'r. Hamlets

    Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

    Robinson, Brooke

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Lawrence, Win. F. (Liverpool)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Rutherford, John

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Legge, Col. Hon. Honeage

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Faber, George Denison (York)

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Finch, George H.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

    Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (IsleofWight

    Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

    Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Fison, Frederick William

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

    Lowe, Francis William

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

    Flower, Ernest

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Foster. Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

    Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G Ellison

    Spear, John Ward

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Macdona, John Gumming

    Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich

    Gardner, Ernest

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (Cityof Lond.

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Stene, Sir Benjamin

    Gore, Hn G. R. C Ormsby- (Salop

    Manners, Lord Cecil

    Stroyan, John

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Milvain, Thomas

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Tomlinson, Sir Wm Edw. M.

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Morgan, David J (Walthamst' w

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Valentia, viscount

    Hasley, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

    Morton Arthur H. A. (Deptford)

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Mount, William Arthur

    Warde, Colonel C. E.

    Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

    Murray, Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

    Welby, Lt. "Col A. C. E (Taunton

    Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Whiteley, H. (Asht'n-und. Lyne

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Higginbottom, S. W.

    Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E.R.

    Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

    Penn, John

    Wilson, John (Glasgow)

    Hope, J.F. (Sherfield, Brightside

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Wilson, J.W. (Worcestersh. N.

    Hoult, Joseph

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Wolff, Gnstav Wilhelm

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Wylie, Alexander

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Purvis, Robert

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Randles, John S.

    Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Keswick, William

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Sir William Walrond and

    Kimber, Henry

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork. N.E.

    Cremer, William Randal

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Ambrose, Robert

    Cullinan, J.

    Gilhooly, James

    Bell, Richard

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Grant, Corrie

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Brigg, John

    Delany, William

    Haldane, Rt. Hon. Richard B.

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Harrington, Timothy

    Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

    Dillon, John

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Burns, John

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Caldwell, James

    Doogan, P. C.

    Holland, Sir William Henry

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Edwards, Frank

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Carew, James Laurence

    Elibank, Master of

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Cawley, Frederick

    Farrell, James Patrick

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Craig, Robert Hunter

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Crean, Eugene

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Law, Hugh Alex. (Douegal, W.

    610

    611

    Leamy, Edmund

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Tennant, Harold John

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Levy, Maurice

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

    Lewis, John Herbert

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Thomas, J A (GlamorganGower

    Lough, Thomas

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Lundon, W.

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    O'Malley, William

    Tully, Jasper

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    O'Mara, James

    Wallace, Robert

    M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

    Partington, Oswald

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

    Mooney, John J.

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Weir, James Galloway

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Priestley, Arthur

    White, Luke, (York, E. R.)

    Moss, Samuel

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Moulton, John Fletcher

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Murnaghan, George

    Roberta, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Murphy, John

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Roche, John

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

    Norman, Henry

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Mr. John Dewar and Mr.

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

    Rea.

    0'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Sullivan. Donal

  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1902–3.
  (11.43.) 9. Motion made, and Question put, "Thatasum, not exceeding £2,317,800, bo granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for Expenditure on the following Navy Services, viz.—

  £

  2. Victualling and Clothing for the Navy

  2,023,500

  12. Admiralty Office

  294,300

  £2,317,800

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 220: Noes, 82. (Division List No. 362.)

  AYES.

  Acland- Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Arrol, Sir William

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Balcarres, Lord

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Balfour, R t Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

  Beach, Rt Hn. Sir. Michael Hicks

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Harris, F'rederick Leverton

  Bigwood, James

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Bond, Edward

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffth-

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Fellowes, Hon, Ailwyn Edward

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Ferguson, R, C. Munro (Leith)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Finch, George H.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Bull, William James

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Hoult, Joseph

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Butcher, John George

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Fison, Frederick William

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Flower, Ernest

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Cavendish, V. C.W. (Derbyshire

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Jones, William (Carn'rvonshire

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (Cityof Lond.

  Kimber Henry

  Chapman, Edward

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Stroyan, John

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Tennant, Harold John

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Penn, John

  Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

  Legge, Col, Hon. Heneage

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N.S.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tomlinson, Sir Win. Edw. M.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Priestley, Arthur

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Purvis, Robert

  Valentia, Viscount

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Randles, John S.

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Lowther, C. (Cumb, Eskdale)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Macdona, John cumming

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Weir, James Galloway

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunt'n

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Wharton, Rt Hon. John Lloyd

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Rutherford, John

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Maxwell, W.J.H. (Dumfriessh.

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Wills, Sir Freilcriek

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Seely, Maj. J, E. B. (IsleofWight

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Morgan, David J. (Walth'mst'w

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Wodehouse, Rt. H n. E. R. (Bath)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Mount, William Arthur

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D). (Strand)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Spear, John Ward

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Stuling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Sir William Walrond and

  Norman, Henry

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Jameson, Major. J. Eustace

  O'Malley, William

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  O'Mara, James

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Leamy, Edmund

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Brigg, John

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Partington, Oswald

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Levy, Maurice

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Burns, John

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rea, Russell

  Caldwell, James

  Lough, Thomas

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Campbell, John (Armagh S.)

  Lundon, W.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Carew, James Laurence

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Roberts, John H. (Deubighs.)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Roche, John

  Crean, Eugene

  Mansfield, Horace Rendali

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Cullinan, J.

  Mooney, John J.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Delany, William

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Moss, Samuel

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Sullivan, Donal

  Doogan, P. C.

  Murnaghan, George

  Thoma, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Edwards, Frank

  Murphy, John

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Elibank, Master of

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Tully, Jasper

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Nolan, Col. JohnP. (Galway, N.

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  White. Luke (York, E. R.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Grant, Corrie

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Connor. James (Wicklow, W

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Mr. Cremer and Mr.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale.

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Henry J. Wilson.

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1902–3.
  (11.53.) 10. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £758,600, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for Expenditure on the following Army Services, viz.—

  £

  11. Establishments for Military Education

  120,800

  12. Miscellaneous Effective Services

  110,800

  £

  13. War Office, Salaries and Miscellaneous Charges

  332,000

  16. Superannuation, Compensation, Compassionate Allowances and Gratuities

  195,000

  £758,600

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 215; Noes, 89. (Division List No. 363.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt, Sir A. F.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Lee, A. H. (Hants. Fareham)

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Finch, George H.

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Allhusen, Augustus H. E.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Leveson- (Gower. F. N. S.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Fitz Gerald, Sir Robert penrose-

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Bagot, Capt. Joceline Fitz Roy

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Long, Col. C. W. (Kvesham)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Flower, Ernest

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.

  Balcarres, Lord;

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S.W.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lowther, C. (Cunib. Eskdale

  Baubury, Frederick George

  Gardner, Erntst

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. H.

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of L.

  Macartney, Rt. Hon. W. G. E.

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Macdona. John Cumming

  Bigwood, James

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Gore, Hn. C. R. C. O.-(Salop)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Bolton. Thomas Dolling

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Bond, Edward

  Goschen, Hn. George Joachim

  M'Laren, Sir Charles B.

  Boseawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Goulding, Kdward Alfred

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

  Maxwell, W.J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Bull, William James

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Gnest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Butcher, John George

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (M'x

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir E. H.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Caulley, Henry Strother

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Mount, William Arthur

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick G.

  Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute

  Cawley, Frederick

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Chamberlain, J. A, (Worc'r)

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Chapman, Edward

  Higginbottom, S. W,

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hobhouse, H. (Somerset, E.

  Norman, Henry

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Bt'side

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Hoult, Joseph

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Peel, Hon. Wm. Robert W.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Howard. J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Penn, John

  Colomb, Sir John Charles R.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry C.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Purvis, Robert

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Kenyon. Hon. G. T. (Denbigh

  Randles. John S.

  Dilke, Rt, Hon. Sir Charles

  Keswick, William

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Kimber, Henry

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick W.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lawrence, Sir J. (Monm'th)

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.

  Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A.C. E. (T''ton)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Stroyan, John

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Whiteley, H. (Ashtonund. Lyne

  Rutherford, John

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Sackville, Col. S.G. Stopford-

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

  Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)

  Seely, Charles H. (Lincoln)

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

  Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Tomlinson, Sir W. E. M.

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E, R. (Bath

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Wylie, Alexander

  Smith, Hon W. F. D. (Strand)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Spear, John Ward

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  TELLEERS FOR THE AYES—

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Sir William Walrond and

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Webb, Col. William George

  Mr. Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  O'Kelly, J (Roscommon, N.)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Horniman, Frederick John C.

  O'Malley William

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur

  O'Mara, James

  Bell, Richard

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Shaughnesy, P. J.

  Brigg, John

  Law, Hugh A. (Donegal, W.)

  Partington, Oswald

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Leainy, Edmund

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Brown, G. M. (Edinburgh)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Rea, Russell

  Burns, John

  Levy, Maurice

  Redmond. John E. (Waterford)

  Caldwell, James

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Lough, Thomas

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Carew, James Laurence

  Lundon, W.

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Mac Donnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Roche, John

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Crean, Eugene

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Cullinan, J.

  Manslield, Horace Rendall

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Mooney, John J.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Delany, William

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Sullivan, Donal

  Dewar, J. A. (Invernessshire

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

  Dillon, John

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Thomas, J.A. (Glamorgan, G'er

  Donelan, Capt. A.

  Murnaghan, George

  Tully, Jasper

  Doogan, P. C.

  Murphy, John

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Edwards, Frank

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Elibank, Master of

  Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Grant, Corrie

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Mr. Cremer and Mr.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Henry J. Wilson.

  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1902–3.
  (12.6.) 11. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £2,440,185, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, for expenditure in respect of the following Services included in the Estimates for Revenue Departments, viz.:—

  £

  1. Customs (including a Supplementary sum of £12,000)

  554,500

  2. Inland Revenue

  1,316,770

  4. Post Office Packet Service

  568,915

  £2,440,185

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 191; Noes, 101. (Division List No. 364.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Arrol, Sir William

  Balcarres, Lord

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Balfour. Rt Hn Gerald W. Leeds

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Penn, John

  Beach. RtHnSirMichael Hicks-

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Bigwood, James

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Bond, Edward

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Purvis, Robert

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Hermon-Hodge, Sir Robert T.

  Randles, John S.

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset. E.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bull, William James

  Hoult, Joseph

  Ritchie, Rt Hn Charles Thomson

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Butcher, John George

  Howard, J. (Midd. Tottenham)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Robinson, Brooke

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Morton

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cavendish. V. C.W. (D'rbyshire

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Rutherford. John

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Keswick, William

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W)

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wore'r

  Kimber, Henry

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Chapman, Edward

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight

  Charrington, Spencer

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lawrence, Sir Joseph (Monm'th

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Coghill. Douglas Harry

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Spear, John Ward

  Colomb. Sir John Charles Ready

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Spencer, Sir E. (W. Bromwich)

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Cranborne, Lord

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Davies. Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Stroyan, John

  Douglas. Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lousdale, John Brownlee

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Lowe, Francis William

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Faber, George Denison (York)

  Lyttellon, Hon. Alfred

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Fellowes. Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Finch, George H.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Valentia, Viscouut

  Firbank, Sir Joseph Thomas

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  FitzGerald. Sir Robert Penrose-

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Webb, Col. William George

  Flower, Ernest

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfr'sshire

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Milvain, Thomas

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Gardner, Ernest

  Montagu, C. (Huntingdon)

  Willox. Sir John Archibald

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Godson Sir Augustus Frederick

  Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Gordon. J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Gore Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby (Salop

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Depford)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  Gorst. Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Goschen. Hon. George Joachim

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Wodehouse. Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Greene. W. Raymond- (Cambs.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Wyndham- Quin, Major W. H.

  Greville. Hon. Ronald

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Guest. Hon. Ivor Churchill

  O'Neill. Hon. Robert Torrens

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Halsey, Rt. Hon. Thomas F.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Sir William Walrond and

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x)

  Peel, Hn Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Mr. Anstruther

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Doogan, P. C.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Crean, Eugene

  Edwards, Frank

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Cremer, William Randal

  Elibank. Master of

  Brigg, John

  Cullinan, J.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Daiziel, James Henry

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Caldwell, James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Ferguson. R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Campbell. John (Armagh, S.)

  Davies, M. Yaughan- (Cardigan)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Carew, James Laurence

  Delany, William

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Dillon, John

  Gilbooly, James

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Grant, Corrie

  620

  621

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Murnaghan, George

  Roche, John

  Harrington, Timothy

  Murphy, John

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Holland, Sir William Henry

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Nonnan, Henry

  Tennant, Harold John

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Thomas, JA (Glamorgan, Gower

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Thomson, F.W. (York. W. R.)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.)

  O'Connor, James (Wiaklow. W.

  Tally, Jasper

  Leamy, Edmund

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S).

  Walton, Joseph (Barasley)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Levy, Maurice

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  O'Malley, William

  Weir, James Galloway

  Lough, Thomas

  O'Mara, James

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Lundon, W.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R

  MaeDonnell, Dr Mark A.

  Partington, Oswald

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Wilson, Henry J. (York. W. R.

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Rea, Russell

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Mooney, John J.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Mr. Humphreys-Owen and

  Moss, Samuel

  Robson, William Snowdon

  Mr. George Brown.

  Resolutions to be reported tomorrow.

  NAVY AND ARMY EXPENDITURE, 1900–1901.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1901, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.—

  (a.) That the gross expenditure for certain Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £288,156 6s. 11d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Navy Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £290,951 1s. 4d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule, so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Navy Services fell short of the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £2,794 14s. 5d.

  (b.) That the receipts in aid of certain Grants for Navy Services fell short of the total estimated receipts by the sum of £41,286 5s. 11d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule, while the receipts in aid of other Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £81,862 6s. 11d.; as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule, so that the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Navy Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £40,576 1s.

  622

  (c.) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—Total Surpluses, £356,223 Os. 10d.; Total Deficits, £312,852 5s. 5d.; Net Surplus, £43,370 15s. 5d.

  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Navy Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriations in Aid, in respect of the same Services; and have also temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services.
  1. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned." — (Mr. Auxten Chamberlain.)
  MR. LLOYD - GEORGEsaid there ought to be some protest made against this sort of thing, which went on year after year. The House of Commons had really never closely investigated these surpluses. On the face of the statement, it appeared that there was an actual profit, but that was exceedingly misleading. The real explanation was this, so far as he had been able to follow the accounts. The money which seemed to be saved on one branch was utilised to cover the growing expenditure on another

  623
  branch — expenditure, be it observed, which had not been authorised by Parliament at all. The Treasury only came to Parliament after the expenditure had actually been incurred. It was the Navy last year that was he greatest sinner. Under the head of materie. he found that the Estimate had been exceeded by pound;160,198, instead of the Department coming to Parliament for a Supplementary Estimate. If there was a Supplementary Estimate, it would be necessary to give an explanation of what the money was wanted for. The money which Parliament had voted to other purposes was appropriated to these excesses. That was a bad principle, and if it were applied in any trading concern it would not be very long until it came to the Bankruptcy Court. We were expending £400,000,000 a year. Why was the expenditure growing at an alarming rate? He ventured to say that one reason was that, on account of these surreptitious methods, the House of Commons had not, up to the present time, taken the trouble to scrutinise the expenditure closely. The growth of the expenditure was real, while the savings were purely apparent. There was a saving on naval armaments, but that was because the armaments which had been contracted for had not been delivered in time. The result was that all this expenditure would come in next year. It was not really a saving. He would not say the accounts were cooked, but they were presented in a very extraordinary manner. Under the shipbuilding Vote there was an increase of £160,000 for materials. He assumed that that was due to increased prices, so that that was a real increase, whereas the alleged savings on other Votes were shams. The Votes really meant that there had been an increase of £300,000 in the ordinary expenditure, but the accounts were presented in such a way as to make it appear that they were rejoicing in a surplus of £40,000. How had the surplus of £11,000 in wages been brought about? Was it in consequence of there being fewer men, or that, reductions had been made in the salaries of the highly-paid officials, or was it in consequence of the reduction of the wages of the men? There was also a saving in connection with the Royal Navy Reserve,
  624
  our policy was to increase that force. Seeing that prices of iron and steel had greatly fallen during the past year, some explanation should be given of the increase of £160,000 for material. He would also like to know what the amounts "written off as irrecoverable" referred to.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that no one listening to the speech of the hon. Member would have supposed that this was a Resolution which had been moved for many years in succession, and until last year, whichever Party had been in power, had been passed without question. It was an entirely new practice to try and raise upon this Resolution the whole of the questions which had been debated at length on other occasions in the House and in its Committees. The figures were those of the year ended March 31st, 1901—therefore the fall in the prices of iron and steel in the present year could not affect them—and they had been examined by the Comptroller and Auditor General, and were presented in the form adopted by him.
  MR. DALZIEL: Was he satisfied with them?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: His criticisms are in the Report.
  MR. DALZIEL: Then he was not satisfied.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that was not a fair statement of the attitude of that official. After the scrutiny of the Comptroller and Auditor General, the accounts were referred to the Public Accounts Committee, under a Chairman chosen, in accordance with the universal practice, from the Opposition, and were the subject of careful and pro-longed inquiry. To say that accounts subjected to such scrutiny were flung at the House without any explanation, and in a form almost to be described as cooked—
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid he had not said they were cooked.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: No; the hon. Member said "he would not say they were cooked," indicating a difficulty in otherwise describing them. Such a suggestion, he was about to say, was a gross exaggeration. He begged the Committee not to neutralise all the work which had been done by

  625
  the Public Accounts Committee by re-examining these accounts as if no Committee had sat upon them. If the great expenditure of time and labour given by the Public Accounts Committee to these matters was to be regarded as of no account, it would be very difficult to got Members to give their services on that body. Coming to the questions asked by the hon. Member, the excess on material was due in part to high prices in the year to which the accounts referred, and in part to larger purchases being made than had been anticipated at the time of the drawing up of the Estimates. The surplus on naval armaments simply meant that less had been expended than had been estimated for. It was not a saving in the sense that the money would not have to be spent in the future, and the Treasury had never pretended or suggested that it was. It was owing to the inability of the Admiralty to procure all the armour plate they had estimated for. The under-ex-penditure on wages under Vote 1 was due to the fact that during the year the numbers were under-borne, and not to any reduction on the wages of our seamen. The same explanation applied to the Royal Navy Reserve. If the hon. Member had followed the discussions on Naval Estimates, he would have been aware that the Admiralty had found it necessary to make alterations in their scheme for a Naval Reserve, that they had not been successful in obtaining all the men they wanted under the old proposals, and that in the year in question the full number of men were not forthcoming. On the general question, the would again remind the Committee that these Estimates had to be prepared some months before oven the beginning of the financial year. A considerable proportion were framed to meet the requirements of foreign stations, communication with which was slow and difficult, and where, therefore, the local estimates had to be prepared still further in advance. No private business in the world could estimate accurately and fully in every particular its expenditure for fifteen months ahead. If the Admiralty were not allowed to take advantage of savings which might be effected on certain Votes to meet increased demands in others, instead of economy being effected, they would be forced into extravagance, and money would be unnecessarily expended in order to avoid the surrender of balances at the end of the year. Not only was it
  626
  an absolute practical necessity, in dealing with such large estimates, concerning so big a concern as the naval defence of the Empire, to have such a power vested in those responsible, to be used with the concurrence of the Treasury, but it was also one of the best safeguards for the careful and judicious expenditure of the money voted by Parliament.
  MR. O'MARAsaid the fact that both the representatives of the Admiralty were absent while this matter was being discussed was a proof of the unbusinesslike methods of that Department. He protested against this Resolution being regarded as a formal matter. It contained questions which could not be dealt with on any other occasion. Apparently millions of money were voted for certain purposes, and the officials of the Department used it just as they pleased. Surely that was an unconstitutional method of dealing with the money of the State. Under what Act did the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury authorise the expenditure of money for purposes totally different from those for which it was voted by the House of Commons? Money intended for the wages of seamen was used for purposes of martial law and the purchase of shipbuilding materials. The most charitable expression that could be used towards the accounts was that they were careless and unbusinesslike, and it was simply scandalous that such an important Resolution should be brought forward at an hour when adequate discussion was impossible. It was a backstairs method of obtaining money for purposes for which the House of Commons would never vote it.
  MR. DALZIELwas rather surprised at the tone adopted by the Financial Secretary. He seemed to regard it almost as a piece of impertinence that any questions should be asked on this matter. It was not for the hon. Gentleman to say what was the proper time for private Members to discuss matters they had to take whatever time they could get, and if the hon. Gentleman desired to get his Resolution through the House without undue discussion, he should adopt a somewhat milder tone. The grievance raised by this Resolution was an old one. Without the authority of the House of Commons, the expenditure of the country had been increased to the extent of hundreds of thousands of pounds

  627
  That the Comptroller and Auditor General was not satisfied with the system was shown by the fact that he had alluded to the "falsification of Estimates." Resolutions of this kind were being submitted year after year, but the figures involved were getting bigger and bigger, and it was impossible to tell where this thing was going to end. It was, therefore, time that some protest should be made, and he would be prepared to go into the division lobby with his hon. friend against the Resolution.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid the Financial Secretary had laid down the novel constitutional principle that once a Committee of the House of Commons had examined into a question, no matter what its conclusions were, those conclusions were not to be debated. That was absurd, as the duty of the Committee was to scrutinise minute details and report to the House any dereliction of duty, so that proper cognisance might be taken of it. The Public Accounts Committee had censured this method of proceeding, and pointed out the very evil to which
  he had referred, and the Financial Sec retary had admitted that the savings were not real savings. The result was that, without obtaining supplementary Votes from the House of Commons, the naval expenditure of the year was being increased, merely at the dictates of the officials of the Department. One item of saving was due to large rejections of cordite. Were the firms which submitted this bad quality cordite the same as had been condemned on a previous occasion? Instead of lecturing private Members for endeavouring to obtain information for the taxpayers, and glozing over such matters as these, the Financial Secretary would do better if he tried to give reasonable explanations of the unsatisfactory condition of things which had been disclosed. If this was the first time these Resolutions had been so debated, all he could say was that a very good precedent had been created.
  (1.13.) Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 139; Noes, 70. (Division List No. 365.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Laren, Sir Charles Benjamin

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Fison, Frederick William

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S.W

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.

  Milvain, Thomas

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormaby-(Salop

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Balcarres, Lord

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Murray, Rt Hon A Graham (Bute

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd' x

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Bond, Edward

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Penn, John

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Hope, J.F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Purvis, Robert

  Cavendish, V.C. W. (Derbyshire

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Randles, John S.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Keswick, William

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Kimber, Henry

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Chapman, Edward

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Charrinton, Spencer

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rutherford, John

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln

  Cranborne, Lord

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Seely, Maj. J. E. B. (Isle of Wight)

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Bristol, S

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. W G. Ellison

  Spear, John Ward

  Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

  Macdona, John Gumming

  Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Finch, George H.

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Warde. Colonel C. E.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Stroyan, John

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Welby, Lt. Col. A. C. E (Taunt'n

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne

  Sir William Walrond and

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Kdw. M.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Valeutia, Viscount

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. K.

  Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Caldwell, James

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Levy, Maurice

  Rea, Russell

  Crean, Eugene

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eition)

  Cullinan, J.

  Lundon, W.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbigh)

  Delany, William

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Roche, John

  Dillon, John

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Doogan, P. C.

  Moss, Samuel

  Sinclair, John (Forfarshire)

  Duffy, William J.

  Murnaghan, George

  Sullivan, Donal

  Edwards, Frank

  Murphy, John

  Tennant, Harold John

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Farrell. Jamus Patrick

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n Gower)

  Ferguson. R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Norman, Henry

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Weir, James Galloway

  Githooly, James

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, E. R.)

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chavles Seale-

  O'Kelly, James (Roseommon, N

  Mr. Dalzel and Mr. Lloyd-

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Malley, William

  George.

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Mara, James

  Resloved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned.

  SCHEDULE.

  Number of Vote.

  Navy Services, 1900–1901. Votes.

  Gross Expenditure.

  Appropriations in Aid.

  Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  1.

  2.

  3.

  4.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Wages, &c. of officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coast Guard, and Royal Marines

  11,357

  18

  5

  9,056

  6

  3

  2

  Victualling and Clothing for the Navy

  64,885

  6

  8

  24,127

  18

  4

  3

  Medical Establishments and Ser vices

  7,374

  15

  2

  173

  9

  9

  4

  Martial Law

  3,925

  14

  9

  130

  12

  7

  5

  Educational Services

  927

  8

  11

  595

  10

  2

  6

  Scientific Services

  4,574

  5

  4

  10,060

  0

  1

  7

  Royal Naval Reserves

  49,731

  0

  8

  80

  19

  6

  8

  Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, &c.—

  Sec. 1.

  Personnel

  124

  12

  5

  354

  4

  0

  Sec. 2.

  Materiel

  160,198

  4

  2

  15,655

  12

  6

  Sec. 3.

  Contract Work

  7 777

  11

  10

  22,123

  12

  6

  9

  Naval Armaments

  190,984

  3

  9

  35,726

  14

  4

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and Abroad

  17,206

  5

  9

  1,476

  12

  9

  11

  Miscellaneous Effective Services

  29, 188

  11

  3

  1,441

  1

  9

  12

  Admiralty Office

  2,918

  2

  7

  7

  11

  10

  13

  Half-pay, Reserved and Retired Pay

  10,992

  0

  10

  806

  18

  5

  14

  Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassion ate Allowances

  954

  19

  3

  1,277

  5

  9

  15

  Civil Pensions and Gratuities

  3,627

  10

  7

  26

  2

  4

  16

  Additional Naval Force for Service in Australasian Waters

  42

  16

  0

  28

  0

  0

  Amount written off as irrecoverable

  6,315

  19

  11

  288,156

  6

  11

  290,951

  1

  4

  41,286

  5

  11

  81,862

  6

  11

  Net Surplus, £2,794 14 5

  Net Surplus, £40,576 1 0

  Surplus surrendered to the Exchequer

  £43,370

  15

  5

  Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1901, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz:—

  (a.) That the gross expenditure for certain Army Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £5,028,840 19s. 4d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Army Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £4,095,960 2s. 10d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule; so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Army Services exceeded the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £932,880 16s. 6d.;

  (b.) That the receipts in aid of certain Army Services fell short of the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £267,988 18s. 11d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule; while the receipts in aid of other Army Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £1,856,725 18s. Id., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule; so that the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Army Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £1,588,736 19s. 2d.;

  (c.) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—Total Surpluses, £4,226,776 5s. 7d.; Total Deficits, £3,570,920 2s. 11d.; Net Surplus, £655,856 2s. 8d.

  And whereas by a Vote of Parliament during the present session (House of Commons Paper, No. 79, of 1902) a further sum of £100 has been granted for the expenditure of the year 1900–1901, and the appropriation of additional receipts in aid of such expenditure has been sanctioned to the amount £932,780 16s. 6d.
  And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have tern porarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain grants for Army Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other grants for Army Services.
  2. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."— (Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
  MR. DILLONsaid the only logical outcome of the attitude taken by the Financial Secretary on the last Resolution would be the abolition of the Public Accounts Committee, and the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General. The purpose of the Public Accounts Committee was to give information to the House. Were they to be told that that information was to be ignored, or were they to be debarred from discussing the matters revealed, or lectured if they attempted to discuss them? The Secretary to the Treasury had said that up to last year it was the practice to pass these Resolutions without discussion. That might be true, but it had always been observed in Parliamentary procedure that if opportunities of discussion were shut off in one direction, discussion inevitably broke out in new and unexpected places. If it was true that these particular Resolutions had not been discussed in the past, the fact that they were now being debated was probably due to the new procedure Rules, under which the greater part of Supply was forced through the committee without a word of discussion or explanation. Another reason was that the practice of transferring balances from one Vote to another did not exist in connection with the civil Service Estimates, but was peculiar to the Army and Navy. It was a higly dangerous practice, because all the experts of the Treasury admitted that it resulted in great Laxity of Treasury control if not carefully watched. On account he supposed, of the practice referred to by the Secretary of the Treasury, namely the passing of these Votes year after year Sub silebntio, these irregularities had grown, and this year, particularly in the Army Estimates, the surpluses and adjustments were on an enormous scale. It would be said that it was difficult to estimate as closely in time of war as in time of peace. That was to some extent a justification of the excesses, but it was also a reason for the discussion and full examination of the extraordinary differences between the

  633
  estimate and the expenditure. There could not be the slightest doubt that this practice had led to progressive and increasing laxity in preparing the accounts of the great departments. As showing to what extent that laxity had gone, the hon. Member quoted the Report (page 226) of the Auditor General as follows—
  "In concluding this Report I have to add that many ether cases of incomplete vouching of charges included as final payments in the Accounts have been met with, besides those specially referred to.
  "It has been impossible not to recognise the pressure and difficulties inseparable from a state of war, and in numerous instances vouchers have been accepted which in ordinary times would have been required to be more complete and conclusive, So far as possible, where supporting evidenceseemed weak, further information has been sought and obtained from the War Office authorities, who have assisted in this respect to the best of their ability.
  "As an illustration underlying imperfect vouching, I may mention that certain charges amounting to £2,174 were embodied in the Cape Chief Paymaster's accounts for October, 1900, which related to the payment of compensation due to native chiefs for loss of oxen and wagons, ordered to be made good by a Board of Inquiry. The bills supporting these charges were made out in favour of a District Commissioner, and were fully certified, but no receipts were attached showing that payment had actually been made to the natives entitled to receive compensation.
  "Failing acknowledgment by the natives themselves of the sums in question, I requested to be furnished with a covering voucher from the District Commissioner, by whom, I assumed, the disbursements had been made; but, instead of this, the War Office informed me that the General Officer Commanding had reported that the compensation had not been paid, as the natives could not be traced, and that the sum of £2,174 had therefore been re-credited to Army funds."
  Therefore the Auditor General was furnished in the preliminary account with a statement that this money had been paid in compensation to the native chief; and it was only when he noticed there was no voucher that he found out that the money had not been paid at all.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid the hon. Member had not read the concluding sentence of the paragraph, which was as follows—
  "It appears that the War Office, in examining the Cape Chief Paymaster's Accounts, had noticed the absence of receipts, as my Department subsequently did in audit, and the recovery was made upon their earlier action in the matter."
  MR. DILLONsaid the account was sent to the Auditor General in such a form that it left a false impression. It was perfectly plain also, from what the Auditor General said in his Report in regard to the fines levied on the unfortunate people in South Africa, that no proper system of accounting or vouching had been adopted. He called attention to the statement that the sums shown for sales of stock captured in South Africa were given on the declaration of the auctioneers themselves. Was not that a monstrous state of things? There was nothing to show to the Auditor General that enormous sums might not have disappeared in the course of these proceedings. It appeared from the report of the Public Accounts Committee that in many cases they were not satisfied by the vouchers and accounts placed before them. The War Office ought to have had an accounting officer at every one of these auctions. The upshot of the reports of the Auditor General and the Public Accounts Committee was that the War Office accounts this year were extremely loose and unsatisfactory. Making all reasonable allowance for the exigencies of war-time, there were two or three heads under which even these exigencies did not excuse the War Office for the condition in which the accounts were presented. He was convinced that the real way to effect economy was to make an effort to increase the pressure on the great spending Departments to exercise economy and to make them feel that their proceedings would be scrutinised more and more jealously every year in the House of Commons. The practice really gave the War Office a blank cheque, and the officials formed the conviction that they were not bound to make any serious effort closely to estimate their expenditure, and that no fault would be found with them if great-differences were subsequently realized. A worse conviction could not exist, as it led to looseness and carelessness on the part of those concerned, arid it was fatal to any serious attempt at economy. The existence of that conviction at the Admiralty and the War Office was largely responsible for the recent monstrous expansion of Estimates. He sincerely hoped that the practice of debating these Resolutions would be followed in

  635
  future years, so that officials might know that their operations would be closely scrutinised and explanations demanded if the Estimates were found to be very wide of the mark.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that hon. Members had misunderstood his previous remarks if they thought he intended to convey the idea that no attention should be paid to the results of the labours of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Public Accounts Committee. The Reports presented by that Committee were often of value to the House of Commons, and those presented this session were as valuable as any which had been submitted. But it was the practice that those Reports should be considered by the Treasury. That Department then issued a Minute calling the attention of officials to any remarks the Public Accounts Committee had felt it their duty to make, and, as a general rule, supporting the recommendations of the Committee. The hon. Member for East Mayo had dealt with a matter of considerable importance. These accounts were War Accounts. For the first time in the course of the war the expenditure was provided for by Estimates, instead of a lump sum being taken by a Vote of Credit. That was done in order to secure the closer watching of the expenditure and to give the House of Commons a stricter control. The Committee would recognise the enormous difficulty of forecasting the exact expenditure involved in great military operations, and no doubt the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General showed how great had been the departures from the Estimates. The criticisms of the Public Accounts Committee in reference to the manner in which the accounts were vouched and kept would have the serious attention of the War Office and the Treasury. But the same accurate vouching of every detail could not be expected in time of war as was secured in, times of peace. That was especially true of the recent war, in which operations had been extended over so enormous an area. Inconsequence of the absence of accounting-officers on the spot, the receipt or word of one man had often to be taken where under ordinary circumstances the testimony of a second
  636
  man would be required. But even making these allowances, he did not say that in the early stages of the war the best system was discovered, but he did contend that a strenuous effort was made by those on the spot to obtain the best results they could, and that as soon as a weak point was found they set to work to remedy it. It would always happen that when articles had to be bought by the thousand instead of the hundred, or by the ton instead of the pound, it would be impossible to observe the same rigid economy as in the piping times of peace. As the war went on the vouching became more perfect, and the control over expenditure better regulated. The officers mainly responsible had done their best under extremely difficult circumstances to discharge their duties properly and to preserve as completely as possible a record of all their transactions. He hoped that if the Committee criticised the War Office or the Treasury for the use they had made of the power conferred upon them by Parliament to authorise these transfers, they would bear in mind the extraordinary difficulties under which their representatives in South Africa had worked, and he thought the Committee would admit that under such circumstances they would have been more than human if they had made no mistakes at all.
  MR. O'MARAcontended that the whole question of Army administration was raised by this Resolution. An additional sum of £2,300,000 had been required for transport and remounts, and that had been met by a transfer of practically the same amount from the Vote for the wages of men. If this sort of thing had happened only on one occasion, it could be understood; but it was a policy of many years standing. What was the use of the House of Commons voting money for increasing the pay of the soldiers when it was spent in this fashion? The question of the contract for Maxim guns was a glaring instance of the unbusiness - like methods—to say the least—of the Department. In April, 1899, a contract for three years was entered into for guns at £105 each, although it was certain that prices

  637
  would soon fall and that the guns could be made at Woolwich for £50 apiece. It was an extraordinary transaction, and he protested against the Committee having to pass these matters at two o'clock in the morning.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEadmitted that in the case of a war it was very difficult to obtain proper vouchers for expenditure. His criticism, however, was not so much as to the method in which the accounts had been kept, as to the dangerous innovation of obtaining, in the guise of these transfers, the sanction of the House of Commons to increased expenditure. For instance, there was £2,300,000 for transport and remounts. The ordinary and supplementary Estimates provided an opportunity for the House of Commons to discuss the matters involved, but by means of these transfers all inconvenient questions were avoided. This particular Department was the one in regard to which there had been the most crying scandals. The War Office apparently did not want any more exposures, and so, instead of coming to the House of Commons with a Supplementary Estimate, they obtained £2,000,000 from the Vote for gratuities to the soldiers at the end of the war. They took the money intended for good men, and spent it on bad horses. Such a practice was bad from every point of view. If the Departments concerned knew that millions would not be allowed to slip through without scrutiny at two or three o'clock in the morning, they would be much more careful in their Estimates and expenditure, and it would be much better for the administration, the Departments, and the House of Commons itself.
  MR. COURTENAYWARNERthought the accounts revealed a most unsatisfactory state of affairs, and if matters were not looked into, other Departments would adopt similarly extravagant practices. The knowledge that the Committee would go into all these matters would be a great restraint on the spending Departments, and prevent much future extravagance. The Financial Secretary had spoken of the impossibility of having auditing officers on the field.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I said you could not have an accounting-officer with every force, under the conditions which prevailed in South Africa.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid that that was exactly what the Comptroller and Auditor General mentioned as taking place with our own forces in China, and what the Public Accounts Committee recommended should be done in connection with all expeditionary forces. This seemed to illustrate the unwillingness of the War Office to allow any decentralisation. He hoped that in the future, if this system of accounts could not be altered, the matter would be brought on at an hour when it could be properly discussed.
  *MR. WEIRthought the system was a thoroughly bad one. It would be better to give the War Office a lump sum during a war, to be accounted for at the finish, instead of allowing them to conduct their business on the present unsound system. As long as he was in the House he would protest against the practice of using earmarked money for purposes not sanctioned by the House of Commons.
  MR. DALZIELcomplained of the absence of the representatives of the Departments concerned. They were not paying the Committee that respect to which it was entitled. There were many points on which information was required. The habit of Departments to take millions out of one pocket and put them into another was wholly unsatisfactory, and if the debate in any way checked the practice it would have served a very useful purpose.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  (2.43.) Question put, "That the Question be now put."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 122; Noes, 60. (Division List No. 366.)

  AYES.

  Acland Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Purvis, Robert

  Allhusen, August's Henry Eden

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(S'lop

  Randles, John S.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Arrol, Sir William

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Rutherford, John

  Balcarres, Lord

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r.

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Hope, J. F. (Sh'ffield, Brightside

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Bond, Edward

  Keswick, William

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow

  Spear, John Ward

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Leverson-Gower, F'rd'rick N. S.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stroyan, John

  Cavendish, V.C.W (Derbyshire

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. W G Ellison

  Tomlinson, Sir Wm. Edw. M.

  Chamberlain, J. Aust'n (Wore'r

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Valentia, Viscount

  Chapman, Edward

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Charrington, Spencer

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E (Taunton

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Maxwell, W. J. H. Dumfriessh.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Cranborne, Lord

  Milvain, Thomas

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Morgan, David J (Walth'mstow

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wodehouse, Rt Hon. E. R. (Bath

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wylie, Alexander

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Murray. Rt Hn. A Graham (Bute

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Finch, George H.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Fison, Frederick William

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Sir William Walrond and

  Foster, Philip S (Warwick, SW.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Penn, John

  Gibbs, Hn A. G. H. (City of Lond.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  O'Malley, William

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Mara, James

  Caldwell, James

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Levy, Maurice

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Crean, Eugene

  Lloyd-George, David

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Cullinan, J.

  Lundon, W.

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Delany, William

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Roche, John

  Dillon, John

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Moss, Samuel

  Sullivan, Donal

  Doogan, P. C.

  Murnaghan, George

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r

  Durfy, William J.

  Murphy, John

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Edwards, Frank

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith

  O'Brien, Kendal Tipperary, Mid

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, P. J, (Tipperary, N.

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Mr. Herbert Lewis and

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry,'W.)

  Mr. Warner.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N.

  (2.50.) Question put accordingly, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 122; Noes, 60. (Division List No. 367.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Purvis, Robert

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Randles, John S.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Greene, W. Rayrnond-(Cambs.)

  Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Arrol, Sir William

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Roberts, Samuel (Sheffield)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Rolleston, Sir John F.L.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Hatch, Ernest Frederick Geo.

  Rutherford, John

  Balcarres, Lord

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Bond, Edward

  Keswick, William

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Law, Andrew Bonar (Glasgow)

  Spear, John Ward

  Brotherton, Edward Allen

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stroyan, John

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G. Ellison

  Tomlinson, Sir William Edw. M.

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Valentia, Viscount

  Chapman, Edward

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Charrington, Spencer

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Clive, Captain Percy A.

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C E (Taunton

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Cranborne, Lord

  Milvain, Thomas

  Whiteley, H (Ashton-und. Lyne

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Mount, William Arthur

  Wylie, Alexander

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Finch, George H.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Fison, Frederick William

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torreus

  Sir William Walrond and

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Penn, John

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Mara, James

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh

  Law, Hugh Alex. (Donegal, W.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Caldwell, James

  Levy, Maurice

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Crean, Eugene

  Lloyd-George, David

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Cullinan, J.

  Lundon, W.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Roche, John

  Delany, William

  M'Killop, W. (Sligo, North)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Dillon, John

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Sullivan, Donal

  Doogan, P. C.

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, J. A (Glamorg'n, Gower

  Duffy, William J.

  Murnaghan, George

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Edwards, Frank

  Murphy, John

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'rary, Mid

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Harrington, Timothy

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Captain Donelan and Mr.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Patrick O'Brien.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  O'Malley, William

  Resolved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned.

  SCHEDULE.

  Number of Vote.

  Army Services, 1900–1901. Votes.

  Gross Expenditure.

  Appropriations in Aid.

  Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure.

  Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure.

  Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

  1.

  2.

  3.

  4.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  £

  s.

  d.

  1

  Pay, &c., of Army (General Staff, Regiments, Reserve, and Departments)

  2,330,005

  5

  7

  81,366

  10

  5

  2

  Medical Establishments— Pay, &c.

  285,798

  19

  1

  5,457

  16

  6

  3

  Militia— Pay, Bounty, &c.

  124,344

  10

  4

  3,266

  0

  11

  4

  Yeomanry Cavalry — Pay and Allowances

  36,997

  3

  4

  3

  0

  0

  5

  Volunteer Corps — Pay and Allowances

  59,727

  17

  11

  524

  11

  0

  6

  Transport and Remounts

  2,322,117

  12

  9

  491,791

  3

  4

  7

  Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies

  1,208,700

  8

  5

  613,383

  3

  3

  8

  Clothing Establishments, and Services

  314,612

  4

  7

  74,683

  11

  3

  9

  Warlike and other Stores — Supply and Repair

  1,033,738

  1

  7

  315,653

  10

  2

  10

  Works, Buildings, and Repairs — Cost, including Staff for Engineer Services

  1,062,419

  4

  5

  43,061

  1

  1

  11

  Establishments for Military Education

  3,391

  1

  1

  3,549

  7

  0

  12

  Miscellaneous Effective Services

  33,280

  0

  10

  347,422

  9

  10

  13

  War Office — Salaries and Miscellaneous Charges

  38,984

  7

  9

  951

  12

  8

  14

  Non-effective Charges for Officers, &c.

  196,344

  10

  6

  75,554

  7

  7

  15

  Non-effective Charges for Men, &c.

  64,843

  6

  4

  68,006

  19

  10

  16

  Superannuation, Compensation, and Compassionate Allowances

  2,078

  3

  9

  39

  12

  2

  Balances irrecoverable

  7,418

  3

  11

  5,028,840

  19

  4

  4,095,960

  2

  10

  267,988

  18

  11

  1,856,725

  18

  1

  Add Excess Vote

  100

  0

  0

  4,096,060

  2

  10

  Net Deficit, £932,780 16 6

  Net Surplus, £ 1,588,736 19 2

  Net Surplus

  £655,956

  2

  8

  Resolutions to be reported tomorrow.

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  1. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the Service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, the sum of £100 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1901, the sum of £100 be
  644
  granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.
  2. Resolved, That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1903, the sum of £77,527,601 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
  Resolutions to be reported tomorrow.

  PUBLIC OFFICES (DUBLIN) [ADVANCES].
  Order for Committee thereupon read, and discharged.

  MARRIAGES LEGALISATION BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read, and discharged. Bill withdrawn.
  Mr. SPEAKER, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 28th day of July last, adjourned the House without Question put.
  Adjourned accordingly at ten minutes after Three o'clock a.m.

APPEAL COMMITTEE.
Second Report from; read, and agreed to.
House adjourned at half-past One o'clock till Tomorrow, Twelve o'clock.