Sitting of 26 June 1901

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  CARDIFF CORPORATION BILL.
  Lords' Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  POULTON-LE-FYLDE GAS BILL [Lords]

    PRESTATYN WATER BILL [Lords].
    SHIPLEY IMPROVEMENT BILL.
    As amended, considered; to be read the third time.

    GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [Lords].
    Read a second time, and committed.

    ELLAND GAS BILL [Lords].
    Report [25th June] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
    Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.—(Mr. Caldwell.)

  PETITIONS.

    EDUCATION BILL.
    Petition from Tynemouth, against; to lie upon the Table.
    Petition from Norwich, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.

    EDUCATION (CONTINUATION SCHOOLS) BILL.
    Petition from Tynemouth, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
    FACTORY AND WORKSHOPS ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
    Petition of the Sanitary Institute, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
    FACTORY AND WORKSHOP BILL.
    Petition of the Sanitary Institute, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
    HOUSING OF WORKING CLASSES (REPAYMENT OF LOANS) BILL.
    Petition of the Sanitary Institute, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
    LOCAL AUTHORITIES OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION BILL.
    Petitions in favour, from Kempston; Wigan; and Tynemouth; to lie upon the Table.

    SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN BILL.
    Petitions against, from Northampton; Sutton-in-Ashfield; Hyde; and Pontefract; to lie upon the Table.
    Petitions in favour, from Clapham Junction; Morley; Altrincham (three); Dudley (six); Parkstone; Lansdowne; Greenhill; Camden Town; Trevadlock; Pelynt; Bristol (three); Bedminster; Horfield; Wareham; Sheffield; Dept-ford; St. Albans; Newcastle-upon-Tyne; New Annesley (two); Hucknall Huthwaite; Mansfield Woodhouse; East Kirkby (five); Kirkby-in-Ashfield (two); Sutton-in-Ashfield (seven); Warsop; Pleasley Hill; Kirkby Woodhouse; Stan-ton Hill; East Field Side; Ford (two); Halifax; Portsmouth (two); Southport; Shillington; Brighton; Bermondsey; Forest Hill; Selly Oak; Walworth (two); Fulham; Newport (Isle of Wight); East Finsbury; Hornsey; Kentish Town; Cwm Bonynaen; Northwich; Luton; Ironville; Titley; and Dundee; to lie upon the Table.

    SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    Petition from Largs, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
    PRISONS (ENGLAND AND WALES) (VISITING COMMITTEES).
    Copy presented, of Draft Rule proposed to be made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Prisons Acts, 1877 and 1898, with respect to the constitution of the Visiting committee of Borstal Prison [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

    PRISONS (ENGLAND AND WALES) (APPROPRIATION OF BORSTAL PRISON TO SELECTED CRIMINAL PRISONERS).
    Copy presented, of Draft Rule proposed to be made in pursuance of Section

    1511
    25 of the Prisons Act, 1877, Appropriating Borstal Prison to Selected Male Criminal Prisoners [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

    PRISONS (ENGLAND AND WALES). (RULES FOR PRISONERS BETWEEN AGES OF 16 AND 21 YEARS).
    Copy presented, of Draft of Special Rules proposed to be made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department under the Prisons Act, 1898, with regard to Prisoners between the ages of 16 and 21 years [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
    GAS AND WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL.
    Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 25th June; Mr. Gerald Balfour]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 230.]
    GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL.
    Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 25th June; Mr. Gerald Balfour] to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 231.]
    WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL.
    Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 25th June; Mr. Gerald Balfour]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 232.]
    WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 2) BILL.
    Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 25th June; Mr. Gerald Balfour]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 233.]
    SUPERANNUATION ACT, 1887.
    Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 19th June, 1901, granting to Mr. A. C. G. Cameron, Geologist, Geological Survey, Board of Education, a Retired Allowance under the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

    WAYS AND MEANS.
    Copy ordered, "of statement showing the Grants in Committee of Supply upon which the Resolution of the Committee of Ways and Means of 25th
    1512
    June, 1901, was based."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
    Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 229.]

  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN BILL.
  Order for Committee read.
  MR. CROMBIErose to move, "That the Order be discharged, and that the Bill be committed to the Standing Committee on Law." It would, he said, be out of order, or at any rate irrelevant, to discuss the merits of the Bill on this motion; the question was whether the Bill should be considered in Committee of the Whole House or in Grand Committee. He confessed that if he had had the choice he should have preferred the Bill to be threshed out on the floor of the House, because he felt confident that if a full opportunity of threshing out every Amendment were given to the Committee the Bill would have emerged from the ordeal in a shape much nearer to that in which it now stood than was likely if it went to a Grand Committee. But he thought they were not justified in asking the Government to do anything for this Bill which they would not have done had they introduced it themselves, and he felt certain that if the Bill had been theirs the Government would have sent it to a Grand Committee. Not only did he believe that the Government would have adopted that course, but if this Bill was to pass at all it must be sent to a Grand Committee, and if the House rejected his motion they would be simply killing the Bill. It had been laid down by Mr. Gladstone that Bills dealt with by Grand Committees should be of a non-party character, and he thought this Bill came within that description. He appealed to those who voted for the Second Reading—and 376 hon. Gentlemen voted for it—who by their votes certainly meant that the Bill should pass in some shape or form, to carry his motion. He wished hon. Gentlemen to be logical and rational, and not to stultify themselves by refusing to support the motion. A rumour had reached him that the argument of the recommendations of the

  1513
  Royal Commission was to be used against this motion, but it was a dangerous thing to talk of a rope in the house of a man who had been hanged. The Royal Commission it was perfectly true—
  *MR. SPEAKERruled that any discussion upon the recommendations of the Royal Commission would be out of order.
  MR. CROMBIEsaid he wished to keep entirely within the bounds of order, and he would only say that it seemed to him that the opponents of the Bill should be very chary of saying anything about the recommendations of the Royal Commission. In order to meet the opposition to the Bill certain Amendments had been introduced. He hoped that, in view of the concessions which the supporters of the Bill were prepared to make, hon. Members would vote for his motion. He begged to move.
  *MR. TRITTONseconded the motion. He said that if the Bill were not sent up to the Grand Committee there would be no chance of the measure passing this session, or perhaps for many years. There was no Bill before the House which had excited a greater amount of interest. He desired to send it to the Grand Committee because he thought it had in it the making of a most useful and reasonable measure of moderate temperance reform, and because he considered that there was no Bill more worthy of being sent up to a Grand Committee than one which sought to protect the little children of our land and check at the fountain head that stream of intemperance which everybody deplored.
  Moved, "That the Order for Committee be discharged, and that the Bill be committed to the Standing Committee on Law."—(Mr. Crombie.)
  MR. JAMES LOWTHER, in opposing the motion, agreed that the merits of the Bill could not now be discussed. He intended to confine his remarks to the question of procedure, and he hoped that the question of sending the Bill to a Select Committee or a Grand Committee would not be mixed up in any way with a debate upon the merits of the Bill itself. Those who had taken part or
  1514
  had been interested in the discussions twenty years ago on the question of the establishment of these Committees would be familiar with the fact that it was laid down, not only by Mr. Gladstone, but by all those who took an active part in the discussion, that the reference to Grand Committees should be confined to non-contentious measures. The hon. Gentleman opposite had spoken of measures which were not of a party or political character. Mr. Gladstone unquestionably did except from his procedure measures of a party or political character, but he went far beyond that, and excepted all contentious measures. He had also used words showing that it was in his mind that a measure apparently of a non-contentious character which assumed in its passage through Grand Committee a contentious character should be committed to a Committee of the Whole House. The remarks of the hon. Gentleman who seconded the motion were evidently made in ignorance of the fact that the principle of reference to Grand Committees had been adopted on the distinct assurance that it should be applied only to non-contentious measures. Both the mover of the motion and the seconder spoke of the great public interest of the Bill, but that was a matter he would not deal with; he was only dealing with the question from the point of view of history and precedent. If the measure were sent to Grand Committee it was true all hon. Members interested would have an opportunity for discussing it, because it would come up on Report, when opinions might be freely expressed. But he had always thought that the amount of time saved by reference to Grand Committee was, under those circumstances, largely detracted from, and more especially would that be so in the case of a measure that had aroused great public interest. A great number of petitions had been presented relating to this Bill—
  *MR. TRITTON: How many against?
  MR. JAMES LOWTHER: I cannot tell.
  *MR. TRITTON: About 4,430 petitions in favour of the Bill and only 107 against.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHER: The hon. Member does not give the number of signatures, but that is a detail.
  *MR. TRITTON: But I can.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHERthought the hon. Member was ill-advised in raising a debate on the merits of the Bill or in challenging him to give statistics, when he was merely addressing himself to a question of procedure. The hon. Member had shown that hundreds of thousands of persons in the country were taking an interest in the Bill, and it could not, therefore, be styled a non-contentious measure. He was told that no fewer than 170 Members of that House had made application to be put upon the Grand Committee. That was ten or twelve times the number that could possibly be appointed, and it rather showed that the House wanted to consider this Bill in its collective capacity. As regarded the merits of the Bill, he had said nothing. The question they had to decide was a very serious one, which affected the whole system of procedure, and without regard at all to the merits of this particular Bill, he hoped that on these broad grounds the House would adhere to the principle already laid down, and would not create a dangerous precedent.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The right hon. Gentleman opposite has on this occasion exposed two qualities which admirably distinguish him—an extreme accuracy of statement and perfect consistency of conduct—but the right hon. Gentleman has also posed in a character in which I and a good many others cannot altogether accept him. He has posed as the expositor of the mind of Mr. Gladstone.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHER: No, I did not talk about the mind of Mr. Gladstone. I simply read his words from Hansard.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The right hon. Gentleman read Mr. Gladstone's mind into his words. The mind of Mr. Gladstone was a somewhat remarkable intellectual instrument, and I do not know anybody who is less likely
  1516
  to be familiar with it than the right hon. Gentleman opposite. The right hon. Gentleman's argument was that this procedure was only intended to be applied to non-contentious business; that this was a contentious measure; and that, therefore, the procedure ought not to be applied to it. But what does the right hon. Gentleman mean to be understood by a non-contentious measure? What can be called a non-contentious measure if this is not one? It was carried on the Second Reading by a majority of between five and six to one, and even on the side of the House which the right hon. Gentleman adorns there was a majority of nearly four to one. Surely a non-contentious measure does not mean a measure in which nobody takes an interest at all! According to the definition of the right hon. Gentleman, that would be the only Bill which ought to be sent to a Grand Committee. I do not think there is anything in the contention of the right hon. Gentleman. I do not know whether the House has observed a peculiar deficiency in our constitution while this matter was being discussed. That is a Government day. His Majesty's Government have taken possession of the time of the House, and have set apart this day for a particular purpose under their guidance and instruction. But where is His Majesty's Government?
  THE PARLIAMENTARY SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Sir WILLIAM WALROND, Devonshire, Tiverton)said this particular Wednesday was taken by the Government so as to enable these two Bills to be placed at the disposal of private Members.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: But surely, when the Government takes that course, there should be some guidance from the Government. These are not two casual Bills picked up accidentally out of a number of private Members' Bills, but they are Bills with reference to which the Government has a policy. Hitherto we have had the advantage of the presence of the Scotch Solicitor General, of the Irish Attorney General, and of the Under Secretary for the Home Department, who, I am glad to see, has recovered from his recent

  1517
  efforts to maintain order at Stratford-on-Avon. On the last occasion on which the right hon. Gentleman represented His Majesty's Government my right hon friend the Member for East Fife asked a very simple question, pertinent to the subject in hand, and entirely within the range of the Department which the right hon. Gentleman opposite represents. The right hon. Gentleman, with that good-humoured affability which always distinguished him, rose and said, "I will go and inquire," and we never saw him again.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. JESSE COLLINGS,)said the right hon. Gentleman had rather misrepresented his position. His right hon. friend the Member for East Fife asked when a certain Departmental Committee would report. It was impossible for anyone who was not a Member of the Committee to answer the question, and, wishing to obtain the information for his right hon. friend, he went to consult the Departmental Committee at the Home Office. Thinking that his right hon. friend wished genuinely for the information, as soon as he had obtained it he communicated it to him. That was the whole story.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am extremely glad to have elicited this information and an explanation of what has previously been a mystery, but I hope the right hon. Gentleman will not confine himself to giving the information to my right hon. friend, because the House also would like the information. But on this occasion I assume that the right hon. Gentleman is in the House, not only for the purpose of having questions addressed to him and of going to the Home Office to inquire, but of stating, on the part of His Majesty's Government, the policy they mean to pursue with regard to these Bills. I have not completed my category. There was also on the Treasury Bench the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, whose thoughts were no doubt in China; and then there was the Secretary to the Treasury, whose particular function is to be most useful to the Government in the House and to be kind and courteous
  1518
  to hon. Members of the House, but whose main purpose is to remain dumb while other people speak. But, seriously, I do not think we should be allowed to discuss this question without any intimation at all of the feeling of the Government in regard to it, and I hope that before the debate has gone much further we shall be honoured by the presence of someone capable of instructing the House upon the subject.
  *EARL PERCYsaid he did not intend to raise any objection to sending the Bill to a Committee upstairs, because he was in favour of the Bill and had voted for the Second Reading, and he agreed that it would be impossible to pass it this session if it was to be taken in Committee of the Whole House. At the same time, he thought it would be very undesirable for the promoters of the Bill to labour under any misconception as to the degree of unanimity which was likely to prevail in the House when the Bill came down from the Committee and was taken on the Report stage. There were two classes of Bills which were sent up to a Select Committee. The one class was composed of non-contentious measures, which everybody wished to see passed, and as to the principle of which everyone was agreed, and the other of Bills which no one desired but for which it was desirable to provide a decent burial, and which were, therefore, sent upstairs to the private crematorium. This Bill was not of that character. Undoubtedly the Bill had evoked a considerable amount of favourable feeling in the country, and it passed its Second Reading by an overwhelming majority, but it by no means followed that therefore it was a non-contentious measure. In one sense the Bill was a very contentious one, and the principle for which they voted was quite different from that embodied in the Amendments certain to be moved in Committee upstairs, on which many of them would not be represented. One matter, the penalising of parents, was of great interest indeed. In voting for the Bill he did so on the plain ground that the liquor trade was a monopoly, and under the statutes of Parliament they had the right to deal with it, and there-fore they had the right to provide that

  1519
  intoxicating liquors, like poisons, might not be sold to persons who had not reached a certain reasonable age. But when they came to a "different" principle, that the public-house was of a certain character—
  *MR. SPEAKER: The noble Lord is going into the principle of the Bill.
  *EARL PERCY, reverting to the question of penalising of parents, argued against it, and said it was a totally different principle from that for which he voted on the Second Reading.
  SIR W. HART-DYKEsaid he thought it was a great pity that this Bill should have been introduced by a private Member. He thought a question of this kind, affecting as it did the social and domestic life of a great mass of the people, ought to be dealt with only in Committee of the Whole House, and under the full auspices of the Government of the day. It was not a question to be hurried through the Second Reading in two or three hours. He was in the unhappy position that, owing to his being a member of the Committee of Selection, he would be unable to serve on the Grand Committee. He regarded this as an impossible and impracticable Bill, a clear proof of which had been given by the number of Amendments put on the Paper with a view to altering its framework. If the resolution were agreed to, he was afraid that some day in August, and perhaps after twelve o'clock at night, they would be driven to discuss the Bill on the Report stage, which would be a great mistake. Public opinion was not yet fully alive to the proposals of the Bill. That was a fact, and, as the House knew, their proceedings were always six months ahead of public opinion. It would take at least another six months for the mass of the working classes of the country to understand the meaning of the Bill. A great many of his constituents were anxious to have the Bill passed, and it was very hard that he should be placed in the position of having to give a hostile vote to the measure; but he appealed, on behalf of those who as yet knew nothing about it, to allow the Bill to be dealt with in Committee of the Whole House.
  MR. ELLIS GRIFFITHsaid that if the right hon. Gentleman's
  1520
  constituents desired to have this Bill passed, the best way of doing it was for the right hon. Gentleman to vote for the resolution. Unless the resolution were passed the Bill could not possibly become law this session. He thought they could very well postpone the discussion till the Report stage, if any hon. Gentleman wished to oppose it.
  *SIR FRANCIS POWELLsaid he certainly hoped the Bill would be referred to the Grand Committee on Law. He had considerable interest in the action of that Committee, and believed that all the Amendments which had been put down on the Paper were of such a character that they could only be thoroughly discussed by the Standing Committee on Law. This Bill was not nearly so contentious as the Vaccination Bill, which was dealt with by that Committee, and had become a law of the land. It was one which he believed was desired by a large proportion of the working classes of this country, who would regard it as a great misfortune if the House of Commons did not give proper facilities for passing a Bill which a large portion of the community at all events believed would produce sobriety and prosperity in the country.
  MR. GRETTONsaid although he was opposed to the principle of the Bill being referred to a Grand Committee, and was of opinion that a Committee of the House of Commons was the only proper tribunal to discuss a measure of this kind, he did not wish to impede its progress. The Bill dealt with the private life and habits of the people, and it was to be regretted that it should be taken away from the House of Commons and discussed upstairs in what could only be regarded as a private capacity. He sincerely hoped that the Grand Committee would be able to safeguard the various interests which the proposals of the Bill attacked.
  *SIR HARRY BULLARDdid not wish to stop the progress of the Bill, which was well thought of in his constituency; but as a brewer and a Frequenter of public-houses he asked for fair play to be shown to that particular business. They were fully as philanthropic as were the proposer and

  1521
  seconder of the measure, and they did not wish—nor could any right-minded man wish—to see little "kiddies" toddling along the streets with pots of beer. All they wished was that the promoters of the Bill would meet them in a fair way with respect to the age limit.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member must confine his remarks to the question.
  *SIR HARRY BULLARDdisclaimed all intention of entering into the merits of the Bill, but he found as a listener to the debates that a great deal more time was occupied in discussing how the business was to be done than was devoted to the business itself. He did not wish to reiterate the merits of the Bill, but seeing that so many were anxious to see it passed into law, why should they not sit on a Saturday and discuss it before a Committee of the Whole House? He would not vote against the motion, because in their particular business they wished to have the matter settled; they desired to be amenable to the law, and to do their duty as average Englishmen.
  Question put, and agreed to.

  BEER BILL.
  Order for Committee read.
  *MR. PURVISmoved "That the Order for Committee be discharged, and that the Bill be committed to the Standing Committee on Law." The opponents of the Bill had declared that it was of so highly technical a character that it could not be adequately discussed by a Standing Committee on Law, but that it must go to a Select Committee. He should confine himself to the mere question—whether it was simple enough to be dealt with by the Grand Committee on Law, or too technical. The opponents to the Bill contended that until the Report of the Royal Commission on Arsenic in Food and Drink had been published, this Bill was premature. That argument was based on the assumption that the Bill sought to elbow out the Royal Commission on Arsenic, but it did nothing of the kind. There was a great outcry about the brewing and agricultural interests, and about their being heard;
  1522
  but they had been sufficiently heard, and there was a whole literature already published on this matter. They were heard before the Beer Committee of 1899, and by the Manchester committee appointed by the brewers themselves, and the matter is now also being investigated by a Royal Commission. There is already a whole literature of evidence on the subject, to master which one must "Scorn delights and live laborious days" poring over Blue-books and other documents. But great as is this stir about interests, I have heard or read hardly a word about another and greater interest—that of the consumer. I must be careful not to go into details, but it is said that the Bill will upset arrangements in the brewing trade and in the manufacture of malt substitutes; that it will upset arrangements which have existed for twenty years. It will do no such thing. Brewers will still be able to brew as they like and what they like, so far as this Bill is concerned. The motion to refer the Bill to a Select Committee is intended to kill the Bill. It is a motion which reveals the real nature of the opposition. Our opponents do not rest upon the inherent strength of their own case or upon any inherent weakness in ours; they simply attempt to hang up the Bill and to stop its further progress under a colourable stratagem, wearing the mask of a desire for more light on a matter which requires no further light so far as this Bill is concerned. I do not complain of their using all the means in their power to achieve their end; I only hope they will not succeed by concealing their real object under the cloak of a motion—to refer the Bill to a Select Committee. In vain is the net set in the sight of any bird, and I trust the House will not be caught with its eyes open. I beg to move.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Order for Committee be discharged, and that the Bill be committed to the Standing Committee on Law, etc."—(Mr. Purvis.)
  MR. STUART WORTLEY: I rise to express the hope that the House will not agree to this proposal. I do so solely in the interests of the Standing

  1523
  Committee procedure of this House. Although it is difficult to formulate in the Standing Orders the distinction between Bills which ought to go to Standing Committees and Bills which should be considered by Committee of the Whole House, from the point of view of common sense, and of experience of the working of the Grand Committees, the thing is not by any means so difficult. What you cannot say in a Standing Order, but what you can in your own mind define as a distinction, is that the House should not send to be discussed by Standing Committees Bills which are in their nature deeply controversial, and which, as such, are opposed on Second Reading on matters of principle. On the other hand, for sending to Standing Committees you must find Bills which are sufficiently amusing in their nature to attract Members to the Committees. Unfortunately, the Bill before the House is condemned by the first of those considerations. I came down to the House prepared to vote, if necessary, for the reference of the Bill we have just disposed of to a Standing Committee, on the ground that I had reason to hope, notwithstanding the pessimistic prognostications of my noble friend the Member for South Kensington, that the Bill had reached an uncontroversial stage of its existence. But that cannot be said of the Bill under discussion. I warn the House that if they send this Bill at this stage of the session to a Standing Committee they will be going far to discredit the procedure of those Committees, and to make less their opportunity of doing such good work as they did in the early days of their existence.
  MR. STEVENSON: I hope the House will adopt the same course of action in this instance as was adopted with regard to the Children's Bill. Measures of a far more contentious and controversial character than the Bill before the House have been discussed by the Standing Committee. The Diseases of Animals Bill and the Vaccination Bill are probably within the memory of many Members of the House. I am certain that no harm would be done by referring this Bill to the Standing Committee on Law. Not only would the existing members of that Committee be fully
  1524
  capable of dealing with the subject, but other members would be added who are specially qualified, by their interest or occupation, to deal with the more technical aspects of the question. There have been many inquiries into the matter; the Second Reading of the Bill was carried by a large majority; and there will be a further opportunity of discussion on the Report stage. I hope, therefore, the motion of the hon. Member for Peterborough will be adopted.
  MR. FLOWER; I cordially agree that this Bill is one of quite a different class and character from the one previously disposed of, and I hope the House will not be influenced by the fact that the fate of the two Bills was set down for decision on the same day, or that they seem in some way to be connected in the public mind. I should certainly have supported the sending of the previous Bill to the Standing Committee, but I suggest that there are many good and valid reasons why that course is inadvisable with regard to this measure. The hon. Member for Peterborough referred with paternal fondness to the simplicity of the Bill, saying, rather unwisely, that he who runs may read. I invite any hon. Member to take up a copy of the Bill, to read it through, and then to say whether or not it is a Bill of a simple character. It is a measure of a highly complex and technical character, and one which, in my humble judgment, can be wisely and carefully considered only by a Committee which has an opportunity of hearing evidence and of examining the statements made on the subject. The interests involved make the subject a complicated one. There is the great agricultural interest. The argument was certainly used by the promoters of the Bill that it was a measure which would lead to an increased demand for English barley. That statement was contradicted. It may or may not be true, but surely, in order to ascertain whether or nor it is true, there can be no better machinery than that of calling witnesses and examining their evidence on the matter. Then there is the interest of the Revenue. On that point I confess I should like to have had some guidance from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It is quite true that in

  1525
  common with his predecessor the right hon Gentleman spoke and voted against the Bill. But he seemed to be in some doubt as to how far the Revenue would be affected by the Bill. At the opening of his speech he seemed to say that it would be not at all; later on he appeared to be more doubtful; and finally he said he felt himself bound to vote against the Bill. I think it is most essential that there should be a full opportunity for hearing the evidence of the officials of the Inland Revenue, not only as to the effect of the Bill on the Revenue, but also as to the manner in which its provisions are to be enforced. There are also the interests of those who manufacture beer, and of those who sell it. I do not desire to suggest that their interests should weigh in the consideration of a measure of a public character such as this, but surely they have a right to place their views before a Committee which is considering a Bill which certainly deals with their industry in a very drastic fashion. The course I would ask the House to adopt is of sending the Bill to a Select Committee. In doing so, I venture to say that I am acting strictly in accordance with precedent. Bills of a complex and technical character have repeatedly been referred by the House to Select Committees. There have been the Bills dealing with undersized fish, the Agricultural Produce Bill, the Companies Bill, the Adulteration Bill, and many others. I should like to mention one other, namely, the Cottage Homes Bill. At the time that was referred to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford was President of the Local Government Board, and it fell to his lot to represent the Government. He made a very interesting speech on the subject, and wound up by saying that the Bill ought to go to a Select Committee. That is exactly my opinion with regard to this Bill, and it would be interesting to learn why the right hon. Gentleman insisted upon that course with regard to a comparatively simple measure like the Cottage Homes Bill, and yet objects to it being followed when dealing with the intensely complicated and intricate matter with which we are now concerned. The history of this Bill is rather a curious one. I suppose it derives such force as it has in public opinion from the deplorable outbreak of poisoning which
  1526
  took place last year. But the hon. Member for Peterborough has frankly admitted that so far as the arsenic question is concerned, the Bill does not touch it at all, and the measure, I believe, would not have obtained the considerable majority it did on the Second Reading had it not been for the impression in the House and throughout the country that the Bill was intended to secure the purity and wholesomeness of beer.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is not now speaking to the motion before the House.
  MR. FLOWER: I recognise that I was going somewhat into the merits of the Bill, but I was anxious that the House should realise that the Bill is of a totally different class from the one recently referred to a Standing Committee. This is a Bill which touches several interests, and it ought to be sent to a Select Committee, which could hear the evidence of the parties interested, and investigate the statements made for and against the measure. I beg to move the motion standing in my name.
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out the words 'the Standing Committee on Law, etc.,' and insert the words 'a Select Committee.'"—(Mr. Flower.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'the Standing Committee on Law, etc.' stand part of the Question."
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: As I happen at this moment to be Chairman of the Standing Committee on Law, perhaps the House will permit me to say a few words on this matter. Arguments have been put forward with regard to the proper functions of Standing Committees, the class of Bills that ought to be referred to them, and the intentions of Mr. Gladstone when the Committees were originally set up. I do not intend to go over the arguments which have been used, but I wish to put before the House one fact which has not yet been mentioned, but which I think is worthy of consideration. I would put it in the shape of an appeal to my right hon. friend representing the Home Department, what are the intentions of the

  1527
  Government with regard to this Bill? Upon the answer to that question ought to depend very largely—I do not say exclusively—whether or not the House should send the Bill to the Standing Committee on Law. The session is going on. Next Tuesday is July 2nd, and on that day the Standing Committee will have the Youthful Offenders Bill before it. I think we may be able to dispose of that in, at most, two sittings—I hope in one. After that, the Committee will have the Children's Bill to consider. That Bill will lead to considerably more discussion than the Youthful Offenders Bill, and, so far as you can make a forecast, I am inclined to think that those two Bills will occupy the four days which the Standing Committee has at its disposal in the next two weeks. That, no doubt, will leave time, perhaps ample time, for the discussion of even the controversial issues raised by the Bill before the House. But, assuming that the deliberations will last a considerable time, and bearing in mind that the Committee has only two days per week at its disposal, it is quite clear that it will be late in the session when the Bill comes back to the House. In all probability, the Government will then be absolute masters of the time of the House, and no private Member's measure will have the slightest chance of passing unless the Government submit it to the friendly ordeal known as "starring." If the Government do not intend to take this Bill under their protection by "starring" it, the measure will in all probability be lost. That raises a very large question. If Bills are sent to the Standing Committees at a period of the session when the members think their labours will be thrown away, it will become increasingly difficult to secure an adequate attendance or even a quorum at the Committees. It is frequently difficult, owing to the naturally dry and technical character of most of the measures which go to these Committees, especially to the Committee on Law, to secure a quorum; but if, in addition to that, a Bill comes at this period of the session, although it may perhaps be of a somewhat more exciting character than usual, I am afraid it will be difficult to induce members to attend if they think—
  *MR. SPEAKER: I think the noble Lord will not be in order in discussing the general constitution of the Standing Committees, or the difficulty or otherwise of inducing members to attend.
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: I do not wish to discuss the general question; I only wish to point out that it will be difficult to secure the attendance of members if they think the Government do not intend to give facilities to the Bill when it comes back to the House. That being so, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman if he is in a position to state the intentions of the Government, because if they do not intend to "star" the Bill, in all probability the appointment of a Select Committee would be the best course to adopt this year, and then next year possibly the Bill might pass in its usual course.
  MR. LAMBERT: I desire to associate myself with the hon. Member for Peterborough. The difference between the two motions, to my mind, is that with one the idea is to kill the Bill, while the other is moved with the desire to secure the passage of the measure into law. I regard the Amendment as a politically dishonest method of killing the Bill. The opponents of the measure have been defeated in the division lobby; they will not come out into the open; and they want to refer the Bill to a Select Committee in order that it may be smothered by evidence and have no chance whatever of passing this session. The stale suggestion has been made that a Bill of this character should not be referred to a Standing Committee. I cannot conceive a Bill which could more properly be so referred. The Bill was carried by an enormous majority on its Second Reading, and yet the hon. Member opposite says it has not been sufficiently discussed, and that we want more evidence. There has already been one Select Committee, which had the effect of killing the Bill for that session. It is because I want the Bill to pass that I shall strenuously oppose the motion of the hon. Member for West Bradford. The motion to refer the measure to the Standing Committee has not earlier been discussed, because, for three months,

  1529
  it has been deliberately blocked. During those three months the Standing Committee on Law has had practically nothing to do, and this Bill might have been disposed of but for the action of some hon. Members opposite.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: I cannot conceive a better or more effective method of killing the Bill than that of sending it to a Grand Committee. I entirely associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, who has pointed out, with great truth, that the Standing Committee on Law is now congested with work. As a member of the Committee of Selection I know perfectly well that at this time of the session it will be very difficult to get members to attend, especially during the hot weather. If the Bill is sent to a Select Committee the Committee could be appointed almost immediately and commence its sittings. There are a great many important questions connected with the subject, and a Select Committee could take scientific evidence, especially in regard to Clause 2, as to substitutes for malt in brewing. I am, therefore, emphatically in favour of sending the Bill to a Select Committee.
  MR. CHAPLIN: My hon. friend opposite has very properly described this Amendment. It is undoubtedly a pretext for killing the Bill. But, if the Amendment is bad in itself, the reasons urged in its support are a great deal worse. The hon. Member for West Bradford has told us that the supporters of the Bill desire to refer it to a Committee, before which the various interests involved cannot possibly get a fair hearing, and, also, that it is absolutely necessary that we should have more evidence. How much more evidence is required? On the last occasion, when a similar Bill was before the House a Committee was appointed. That Committee sat for three years, and a mass of evidence was taken. Within six months after that Committee had reported that everything was safe and nothing needed to be done the recent epidemic broke out. There was a Commission appointed at Manchester by the brewers themselves, and that Commission has just reported. There is a Royal Commission sitting at this
  1530
  moment. That Commission has taken a great deal of evidence which has been reported from day to day in the public press and is accessible to all. There is, therefore, an enormous body of evidence before the House of Commons and the country; and under the circumstances it is absurd to propose that the question should now be referred to a fourth Committee, because, forsooth, the public have had no opportunity of gaining information upon the question. If hon. Gentlemen wish to defeat the Bill, let them say so openly. I frankly admit that they cannot adopt better means than that of sending it to a Select Committee. Everybody knows that even the appointment of such a Committee, unless further time was afforded by the Government, is impossible, as the opponents of the Bill certainly would not allow us to take it after twelve o'clock. Everybody must understand that the object of the Amendment is to kill the Bill, and I earnestly hope that the House, which carried the Second Reading by so large a majority, will at least grant us this—that the proposals contained in this Bill should go before the Standing Committee, where they can be thoroughly threshed out. And here is the answer to the question put by the noble Lord opposite. The decision of the First Lord of the Treasury has already been stated on this subject, namely, that if the Bill comes back to the House not more controversial than it goes to the Committee, or, at all events, reasonably uncontroversial, as we hope, with Amendments, it may do, it will naturally go forward through its further stages. I, therefore, hope the Amendment of my hon. friend will be rejected.
  MR. JORDAN: I confess that, as a teetotaler, I hardly know which way to vote. I know that if the Bill is sent to a Select Committee it will probably be killed for this session, and poisonous beer will not be interfered with. That being so, I am not certain whether that would not be a good way of diminishing the sale of beer. On the other hand, if the Bill goes to the Standing, Committee, it is likely to pass, and then you may get pure beer, and my fear is that if you get pure beer the sale and

  1531
  the drinking of beer will be increased. I am, therefore, in a strait between the two. Seeing, however, that the House was so generous in relation to the Children's Bill, I feel inclined to treat this Bill in the same way, and, therefore, having balanced the two proposals, I shall vote for sending the Bill to the Standing Committee.
  *MR. GROVES: I hope I shall be able to settle the indecision of the hon. Member who has just spoken by telling him that so far as those who are responsible for the measure before the House are concerned he need not trouble his mind at all. The original Bill does not provide, or profess to provide, in any shape or form for the purity of beer. It is not a Pure Beer Bill, but I admit that on the Second Reading there was some doubt raised on the point, and that a large number of Members who supported the Second Reading were under the impression that they were doing something which would ensure the purity of beer. I consider that it is certainly better to send the Bill to a Committee specially selected, who would devote their time and attention to the discussion of the subject, rather than to a Committee composed of a large number of Members who are lax in their attendance, are wanting in expert knowledge of the question, and who will not give the attention to the subject which its importance warrants, because then when the Bill came down to the House again on the Report stage we should be no further advanced than we are now. The hon. Member for South Molton taunted the minority on this question with having been beaten in the open by an enormous majority, and with now attempting to minimise the importance of the division by a side issue, but for the reasons I have given, and which I think answer the hon. Member, there cannot be the slightest doubt as to which is the better qualified body to deal with a matter of this technical and controversial character. I shall, therefore, support the motion to refer the Bill to a Select Committee.
  *MR. HEMPHILL: I am glad to see the First Lord of the Treasury in his place, because it is extremely
  1532
  desirable that we should have some light and leading as to the actual designs of the Government in this matter. As a member of the Standing Committee on Law, I entirely agree with the remarks of the noble Lord beside us. If this Bill is sent to the Committee, it should be on the distinct understanding that when it comes back to the House the Government will take charge of its further stages in order that it may pass this session. I confess I do not think there is any particular privity between law and beer; certainly so far as we Irish lawyers are concerned, I think we are about as incompetent a tribunal as possible to form a judgment on the merits of pure beer, so that, prima facie, I should be inclined to say that the Bill should be considered either by the Whole House or by a Select Committee. It would be extremely difficult for Members like myself, who are anxious always to give an intelligent vote, to deal with a subject of this more or less technical character. If, however, the Government undertake to adopt the Bill when it comes back, I will vote for its reference to the Standing Committee.
  MR. BANBURY: I think this Bill should go to a Select Committee, because it introduces a novel principle into our legislation, in that it gives power to justices to compel persons to sell a certain article. Under these circumstances it would be only fair to the people who sell the article that they should have an opportunity of producing evidence and stating their case before a Select Committee, because if the Bill goes to the Standing Committee some injustice may be done.
  MR. HEYWOOD JOHNSTONE: Having occasionally served on the Standing Committees, I frankly own that a less satisfactory tribunal for dealing with a measure of this sort could hardly be conceived. The attendance is scant and infrequent; it is difficult to know when any particular Amendment is coming on; and the moment a division is called the door is locked, so that everyone outside is prevented from recording his opinion. Those who are serving on private Bill Committees, or who are called out of the

  1533
  room on any other business for the moment, know how exceedingly inconvenient that is. Furthermore, I do not think that the same amount of discussion and consideration is given to matters in the Standing Committees as is done either in Committee of the Whole House or before a Select Committee. This Bill raises a considerable number of controversial points, not of principle, but of detail. It is true the Second Reading was carried by a large majority, but the only principle the House then affirmed was in favour of the purity of beer. But the Bill raises other questions of quite as great importance. It has been suggested that it would promote the growth of English barley. That is a point the Committee ought to consider very carefully indeed, as we have no evidence, and the Standing Committee could have no evidence to justify the supporting of the Bill on that ground. The question whether malt beer has the sole right to be considered pure and wholesome beer, or whether beer brewed from malt substitutes may not be considered equally pure and wholesome, is another matter of considerable importance, which can be decided properly only by a Select Committee having power to take evidence. A third point would be the effect of the measure upon the trade itself. I am not interested in the trade to any extent, but I do say that the Bill would very largely affect both the producer and the retailer. Under this Bill the retailer will have to duplicate all his vessels for the sale of beer. I think these are points of principle and not of detail, and I hope that they will be carefully considered, whatever Committee the Bill is referred to. For these reasons I cannot help feeling that it would be far better that this question should be dealt with by a Select Committee or by a Committee of this House. I trust this Bill, therefore, will be referred to a Select Committee which can take evidence.
  MR. WALLACE: I intend to oppose this Bill when it comes back to the House, but in order that it may be discussed I shall vote for it going to the Grand Committee. I think before we proceed any further with this Bill we ought to have some opinion upon it from some representative of His Majesty's Government.
  MR. GALLOWAY: I object, in the first place, strongly to the Bill being referred to the Grand Committee. Those who have read the discussion which took place when Grand Committees were set up, and those who were in the House at the time, will remember that in the autumn session at the end of November Mr Gladstone was only able to carry his motion by giving an undertaking that only non-contentious measures should be sent to Grand Committees. My hon. friend the Member for Peckham has pointed out that an entirely new principle is contained in this Bill. With that contention I entirely agree, but I do not understand his argument, and I cannot see how he justified his contention that the Bill ought to be referred to a Select Committee. I should have thought that the hon. Member would have contended that the Bill ought to be discussed by the whole House, and not by some other tribunal.
  MR. BANBURY: That is why I wish it to be sent to a Select Committee.
  MR. GALLOWAY: In some cases I have known such a reason as this induce him to oppose such a course being taken. I do not think that even a Select Committee is specially qualified to deal with such a subject. A Select Committee ought to be a tribunal for inquiring into the subject-matter rather than into the merits of the Bill. I am entirely opposed to a Select Committee. I want to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley a question. The motion before the House is to refer the Bill to the Standing Committee on Law, and I am opposed to that. The hon. Member for Bradford has moved an Amendment to refer the Bill to a Select Committee, and I am opposed to that course. What I desire to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bordesley is that he shall make some statement which will be a guide to myself as to which way I shall vote when the question is put from the Chair, and I hope before the question goes to a division the right hon. Gentleman will give me and other hon. Members who find themselves in a similar difficulty some guidance in this matter.
  MR. MOULTON: I am afraid that in this matter

  1535
  I take a somewhat more serious view than most of the speakers who have addressed the House upon the point as to whether this Bill ought to go to a Select Committee or to the Grand Committee on Law. I take it that we must consider what the opposition to this Bill rests upon, so as to see whether it is a mere question of drafting or a much deeper question requiring a knowledge of the facts. I have said that I take a most serious view of this Bill. This is not because it applies to the brewing industry. The brewing industry is a great industry, and though I wish it were not so great, I feel that it must receive fair treatment at our hands. Now this Bill is in my view as had a Bill as can be brought before Parliament from the point of view not only of this special industry, but also of industrial progress generally. This class of Bill will become more and more frequent as we advance in knowledge. I have spent my life almost in watching the people who develop the various industries of our land, and I have seen things beginning with a mere rule-of-thumb practice develop into a science. And the more that occurs, what follows? It follows that those people who know the science and work it to its best advantage, those people who give us the greatest power over nature and enable us to use that power with the greatest economy and success get further and further away from the knowledge of the common people. What they do is not understood, and if anybody, whether from some political ambition or from greed or prejudice, commences an attack upon those who are in the forefront of any practical science, he can always get an audience ignorant enough—I do not use the word in any offensive sense—of what is being done in the development of that science to support him. Now I am asked whether I will let this Bill go to a Committee, where it will be debated as a political matter without an opportunity being afforded of arriving at the real facts of the case, or whether I want it to go to a Committee who can look, examine, and ascertain the facts of the case and see what is just to the various interests affected by this Bill. Now when that is the issue
  1536
  before us, I say that it is a Bill which ought to be dealt with with knowledge. I am sure Mr. Speaker will not consider that I am trespassing upon another stage of the Bill if I point out two or three things which will have to be raised in the Committee stage of this Bill, for I want to show that to legislate blindly and without knowledge in this case is to legislate badly, and that the only way in which each one of us can fit himself for legislation upon this matter is by seriously studying the subject and mastering the facts. Let me take the question of the agricultural interest as an example. How has this measure obtained support from the agricultural interest? People have said, "We grow barley, which makes malt; let us make the brewers use malt, and malt only, in the manufacture of beer. This will increase the demand for our malt." They do not know that the salvation of the English malt-grower and the English barley-grower lies in the skill with which modern brewing science can take the defective English malts and make them do duty in producing high-class beer. The quantity of sugars and other materials used to render this English malt equal to its duty is trivial, and if you stop the use of these materials, if you throw the ban of public opinion upon them, it means that you give up to an enormous extent using these English malts at all. To the persons who merely treat this question as a political matter all malt is malt, and that which assists in the use of malt assists the barley-grower. That is what ignorance does, and that is how ignorance makes you look at this Bill. But when you begin to put yourself in possession of the actual knowledge of brewing science you see that the additional power which has been given to the brewing chemists by the knowledge of the properties of brewing sugars enables them to use the imperfect material which is so largely grown in England. The true rival of English malt is not these sugars. These sugars are its best friends. The real rival is the foreign malt. Are you going to send a question of this kind to a Committee on Law to be swayed by people who spend their time in studying law? Are you going to send to a Committee on Law

  1537
  a Bill which may have the effect—and which will have the effect if it is passed and succeeds in its object—of reducing the percentage of English malt used from 80 to about 50 per cent. Is that the sort of Committee to deal with such a question? I do beseech this House to look upon this Bill in the serious light in which I have put it before the House, namely, that it is attacking people—and chiefly English people—who have worked out during the last twenty or thirty years a complete science, of the very rudiments of which I do not suppose ten people in this House, with the exception of brewers, are acquainted. Are you going to take a Bill which will have important practical consequences of that kind and send it to people for consideration who will discuss it as a matter of drafting. This would be all very well if they were drawing up a Bill upon some matter which they had been studying all their lives, but this is a matter in which the one mischievous thing is ignorance. It is only ignorance that is here to be feared. I believe that you might take at random from all sides of the House and from all parties twenty men and put them down to legislate on this matter, and if they had full knowledge the result would be exactly the same whichever twenty men you took. That which is dangerous in such legislation is legislating without that technical knowledge which enables people to understand the meaning and the purport of the very thing to which the Bill is addressed. Let me give an example of the way in which ignorance or want of accurate knowledge upon these points must affect the tribunal dealing with this matter. We have heard some speeches both on this side of the House and on the other side dealing with arsenic in beer, as if this Bill had something to do with the poisoning which occurred in the recent arsenic epidemic. And this the common belief. Yet there is not a man who has gone thoroughly into this matter who does not know that this question of arsenic in beer has not got the remotest connection with this Bill. The real difficulty which is felt by everybody who has seriously taken up the question of arsenic in beer is the keeping of arsenic out of malt. The
  1538
  malt is the real problem for those who are dealing with this question. There is no difficulty in keeping it out of the sugars and other substances used, and yet it is against these only that the Bill is directed. I do not intend to delay the House any further, and all I will ask is that hon. Members shall put to themselves this question—Is this a Bill upon which a right knowledge is necessary, or is it a case in which you may act without knowledge and pass a measure which is going to throw a stigma on the methods of the preparation of beer without the means of arriving at the knowledge of their nature and consequences. Remember that these methods which are being attacked are really a credit to this country? This Bill will throw into the background the triumphs of science which have given us a better, a purer, and a lighter beer, and a beer which has been so good that it has driven out that invasion of foreign beer with which we were threatened at one time. The excellence of the brewing science has enabled you to resist the invasion of lager beer. In a question of that kind, in which the right and the wrong rest upon the right appreciation of technical questions, will you be doing justice to the people and the trade of England if you send the Bill to a Committee which from its very nature cannot ask for information, and must simply trust to that knowledge, or want of knowledge, which Members of the Committee might possess?
  MR. DALY: It strikes me that there was scarcely any necessity for the hon. and learned Member for Launceston to state that there were not ten members in the House who understood this question. [An HON. MEMBER: It is quite true.] The hon. Member opposite says it is quite true. I do not know whether he is a brewer or a barley grower, but I do feel that in this House the brewing interest is largely represented. As far as I am concerned, I do not always agree with my hon. friend the Member for South Fermanagh upon this question; but on this occasion I am prepared to support the sending of this Bill to a Committee upstairs, where I

  1539
  think it will be fairly treated. I think the Members of the Grand Committee on Law will be quite capable of dealing with this question in a proper manner, and I hope upon that Committee we shall have the assistance of the hon. and learned Member for Launceston. Perhaps if the hon. Member is placed upon that Committee he may be able to dispel some of the ignorance which he alleges exists among the Members of that Committee. I am not like the hon. Member for South-west Manchester upon this question, for I have no difficulty in making up my mind which way to vote. I intend to support this motion, and I do not think there need be any hesitation in sending this Bill to a Committee upstairs. It is an unfortunate thing that so many people have been poisoned by the drinking of impure beer. We are not troubled in Ireland with anything in the way of poisoned beer, because it is well known that in Ireland the beer is the best in the world.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY: I take exception altogether to the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Launceston, who seems to suppose that all knowledge is confined to lawyers. The principal line of argument taken up by the hon. and learned Member for Launceston is that in sending this Bill to the Grand Committee we are running counter to the development of scientific brewing. Are we to accept gratefully the scientific knowledge which has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of people by poisoning in Manchester? (Cries of "Oh, oh!"] I do not wonder that hon. Members do not think that argument is a sound one—it is only the sufferers from the poisoning who think it is sound This development of scientific brewing at any rate has not been advantageous to the general welfare of the public. The hon. and learned Member for Launceston has been allowed to embark upon on or two subjects which I should have thought were controversial matters.
  *MR. SPEAKER; I must point out that the reason why the observations of the hon. and learned Member for the Launceston Division were in order was
  1540
  that he was pointing out that this Bill was one which involved a great number of scientific questions which could not be satisfactorily settled by the Committee, which had not the opportunity of hearing expert evidence. The hon. and gallant Member will not be in order in dealing with the merits of the Bill.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY: Shall I be in order, Mr. Speaker, in taking up the argument of the hon. and learned Member upon the question as to how the agricultural interest will be affected by this Bill?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Not in the economic sense, but in the scientific sense, yes.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY: I confess that it is a little difficult for ignorant and uneducated agriculturists to separate the economic from the scientific. I did hear the hon. and learned Member for Launceston make some remarks, upon which I am prepared to upset him, but whether they are economic or scientific I am not quite certain. I know that he made one or two statements which are contrary to the facts. He gave as one of his reasons for opposing this motion that we must take evidence as to whether foreign barley would supplant English barley. May I point out to the hon. and learned Member that the primary intention of the promoters of this Bill is not one which enters into the question of barley at all. The primary intention of the promoters of this Bill is that the consumer shall have the right to ask for a certain article, and that he shall not be supplied with something entirely different.
  *MR. SPEAKER: I think that is an economic question and not a scientific one.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEY: I find that this is extremely cramped and difficult country to ride over. At least, I may say that the hon. and learned Gentleman, when he pointed out what the results would be of substituting foreign barley for English, forgot to mention that, in many instances, already the brewers used from 60 to 70 per cent. of sugar. [Cries of "No, no."] From

  1541
  those cries the House will notice the difference between ignorance and knowledge. There is a possible contingency that those hon. Members who differ from me may be ignorant, and I may be right. There is also this to be recollected. If this Bill has to have the scientific and economic effect which the hon. and learned Member desires, it will be possible to drive out this sugar and introduce more barley. But we are not discussing the question of any antagonism between English and foreign barley, and our object will be achieved if the result of this Bill is that beer will be brewed from barley, whether English or foreign, rather than from other substances which
  in many cases have proved deleterious. This is not a highly controversial, complex, or technical Bill, and it is capable of being dealt with on its merits by any rational Committee upstairs. The Grand Committee on Law is perfectly competent to arrive at a reasonable and fair solution of the difficulties, and although it may be possible for those who oppose the Bill to introduce all manner of technicalities, that charge cannot justly be brought against the promoters of the Bill.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 190; Noes, 175. (Division List No. 279.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E,)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Aird, Sir John

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Ffrench, Peter

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Field, William

  Lundon, W.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Finch, George H.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Mac Donnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Crae, George

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Govern, T.

  Balfour, Maj K. R(Christchurch

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

  Barry, E. (Cork, S)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Gore, Hon. G R C Ormsby- (Salop

  M'Killop, James(Stirlingshire)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Lincs.

  Milton, Viscount

  Bignold, Arthur

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Boland, John

  Grant, Corrie

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Murphy, John

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hain, Edward

  Newnes, Sir George

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hammond, John

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.)

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Burns, John

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Burt, Thomas

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Cameron, Robert

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  O'Brien, Patrick) Kilkenny)

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Carew, James Laurence

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  O'Doherty, William

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Hoult, Joseph

  O'Mara, James

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Colville, John

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Crombie, John William

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Daly, James

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Percy, Earl

  Delany, William

  Joyce, Michael

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Dillon, John

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Pilkington, Lieut- Col. Richard

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Doogan, P.C.

  Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Doughty, George

  Lambert, George

  Rankin, Sir James

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Rea, Russell

  Duffy, William J.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Reddy, M.

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Edwards, Frank

  Leese, Sir Joseph F. (Accrington)

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Rigg, Richard

  Spear, John Ward

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Strachey, Edward

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Sullivan, Donal

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Round, James

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. C. (Oxf'd Univ.

  Willoughby, de Eresby, Lord

  Russell, T. W.

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk, Mid)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Wallace, Robert

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Smith, H. C (North'mb Tyneside

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir William H.

  Purvis and Sir Cuthbert

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Quilter.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Fletcher, Sir Henry

  Mooney, John J.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Flower, Ernest

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Austin, Sir John

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Greene, Sir E. W (B'ryS Edm'nds

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Bill, Charles

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Bond, Edward

  Groves, James Grimble

  O'Dowd, John

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn)

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.

  Boyle, James

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  O'Malley, William

  Brigg, John

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Parker, Gilbert

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Partington, Oswald

  Bull, William James

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Helder, Augustus

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Caldwell, James

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Pym, C. Guy

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Cawley, Frederick

  Holland, William Henry

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

  Chapman, Edward

  Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Kitson, Sir James

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Knowles, Lees

  Rutherford, John

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Crean, Eugene

  Leng, Sir John

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Sassoon, Sir Edw. Albert

  Cullinan, J.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter(Bristol, S)

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Denny, Colonel

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Stock, James Henry

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Dunn, Sir William

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall)

  Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

  Elibank, Master of

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings)

  Fardell, James Patrick

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Farrell, Sir T. George

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Mather, William

  Tomkinson, James

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Maxwell, W. J H (Dumfriesshire

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Tufnell, Lieut. Col. Edward

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Valentia, Viscount

  1544

  1545

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)

  Williams, Rt. Hn J Powell- (Birm.

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C E. (Taunton

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Mr. Gretton and Mr.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton und. Lyne

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Charles Shaw.

  Main Question put, and agreed to.

  Order for Committee discharged.
  Bill committed to the Standing Committee on Law, etc.

  WAYS AND MEANS [25TH JUNE].—REPORT.
  Resolution reported—
  "That towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the
  service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, the sum of £35,443,233 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  Resolution read a second time.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Rosolution."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 302; Noes, 59. (Division List No. 280.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Flower, Ernest

  Aird, Sir John

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Forster, Henry William

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Chapman, Edward

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Coddington, Sir William

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Gore, Hn. G R C. Ormsby-(Salop.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby-(Linc)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Colville, John

  Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

  Austin, Sir John

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Grant, Corrie

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Greene, Sir E. W (B'ryS Edm'nds

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Crombie, John William

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

  Balfour, Maj. K. R. (Christch.

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Gretton, John

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Groves, James Grimble

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Bell, Richard

  Denny, Colonel

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hain, Edward

  Bignold, Arthur

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Bill, Charles

  Doughty, George

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'rd

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Harms worth, R. Leicester

  Bond, Edward

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Bowles, T. Gibson (Ling's Lynn

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Brigg, John

  Dunn, Sir William

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Edwards, Frank

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Elibank, Master of

  Helder, Augustus

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Henderson, Alexander

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

  Burt, Thomas

  Fenwick, Charles

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)

  Caldwell, James

  Finch, George H.

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Campbell. Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Cawley, Frederick

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Holland, William Henry

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Norman, Henry

  Smith, H C (Nor h'mb. Tyneside

  Hoult, Joseph

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry C.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

  Parker, Gilbert

  Spear, John Ward

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Partington, Oswald

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Stock, James Henry

  Joicey, Sir James

  Pease, Herbert P. (Darlington)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

  Penn, John

  Strachey, Edward

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Percy, Earl

  Stroyan, John

  Kenyon-Slaney. Col. W. (Salop.)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Kimber, Henry

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ

  Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth

  Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Knowles, Lees

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings)

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Price, Robert John

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Lawson, John Grant

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Purvis, Robert

  Tuffnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Pym, C. Guy

  Valentia, Viscount

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Wallace, Robert

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Rea, Russell

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Long, Et Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Renwick, George

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd.

  M'Crae, George

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Rigg, Richard

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Williams, Rt. Hn J Powell- (Birm.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Mather, William

  Robinson, Brooke

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Maxwell, W. J H (Dumfriesshire

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Milton, Viscount

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W.

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R. (Bath,

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Round, James

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Morgan, David J. (Walth'mstow

  Russell, T. W.

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'ld

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Rutherford, John

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Wylie, Alexander

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Younger, William

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  Scott, Chas. Prestwich (Leigh)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir

  Myers, William Henry

  Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

  William Walrond and Mr.

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Anstruther.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Crean, Eugene

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Cullinan, J.

  Gilhooly, James

  Blake, Edward

  Daly, James

  Hammond, John

  Boland, John

  Delany, William

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Boyle, James

  Dillon, John

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Burns, John

  Doogan, P. C.

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Cameron, Robert

  Duffy, William J.

  Joyce, Michael

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lundon, W.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Field, William

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  1548

  1549

  M'Fadden, Edward

  O'Doherty, William

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  M'Govern, T.

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Mooney, John J.

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Murphy, John

  O'Dowd, John

  Sullivan, Donal

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  O'Malley, William

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  O'Mara, James

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Sir Thomas Esmonde and

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Reddy, M.

  Captain Donelan.

  Resolution agreed to.

  Bill ordered to be brought in by the Chairman of Ways and Means, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Austen Chamberlain.

  FACTORY AND WORKSHOP ACTS AMENDMENT (EXPENSES).—REPORT.
  Resolution reported—
  "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of any expense incurred by the Secretary of State in any inquiry under the provisions of any Act of the present session to amend the Factory and Workshops Acts."

  CREMATION BILL [Lords].
  Order read, for further proceeding on consideration, as amended by the Standing Committee:—
  The Clause (Definitions (Scotland)—
  In the application of this Act to Scotland—
  The expression "burial authority" shall mean the parish council or town council of any parish or burgh as defined in Sections 2 and 3 of the Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act, 1855, or any Act omending the same.
  The expression "the Local Government Board" shall mean the Local Government Board (Scotland);
  The expression "Secretary of State" shall mean the Secretary of State for Scotland—(Mr. Renshaw.)
  Read a second time on 19th June.
  LORD HUGH CECILsaid he desired to know if it would be in order now to move that the clause ex-
  1550
  tending the Bill to Scotland be postponed. The clause, having been read a second time, was part of the Bill, and he submitted it would be in order to move that it be postponed until the other clauses had been considered.
  *MR. SPEAKER: That would not be in order.
  LORD HUGH CECILsaid he desired to move an Amendment in order to raise a question of some little interest. In the opinion of the Law Officers of Scotland the parish council was the proper authority to be entrusted with powers under the Act, and it was provided that in the application of the Act to Scotland the expression "burial authority" should mean the parish council. It appeared to him, merely from English experience, that it was very doubtful whether it would be wise to entrust parish councils in Scotland with power to build crematoria. That would be a very expensive matter, and a matter requiring some scientific knowledge, which was not ordinarily at the disposal of a parish council. He should have thought that it was open to doubt whether the parish authority was the proper authority to carry through such a work. Then there was the question of expense. He thought he was right in saying that a parish council was limited with reference to its rating power under the Local Government Act, and no provision, so far as he was aware, was included in the Bill for extending that power. It would, therefore, in his opinion, be better to confine the application of the Bill in Scotland to the county councils, which commanded the best advice, and had very much greater financial resources. The Bill had been extended to Scotland on the advice of his hon. friend and against his own wishes, and, having been extended, it

  1551
  should be well considered. He begged to move to omit the words "parish councils or."
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Clause—
  "To leave out the words 'the parish council or.'"—(Lord Hugh Cecil.)
  Question proposed, "That the words 'the parish council or' stand part of the Clause."
  MR. RENSHAWsaid he did not think the noble Lord quite apprehended the position in Scotland. He might explain that the parish council in Scotland was the burial authority, and the only authority which had any connection with the burial laws. There was no doubt whatever that under the regulations which would be laid down by the Secretary of State it would be impossible for small parish councils to apply the Act, but there were large parish councils in Scotland which would be able to avail of it. He would appeal to the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment, as the parish council was the only authority, outside the large boroughs, that could deal with the Bill in Scotland.
  MR. BANBURYsaid that he was glad the Bill had been extended to Scotland, and, having been extended, they ought to make it workable. The noble Lord said that in his opinion the parish council would not be the proper authority, and he referred to the question of finance. His hon. friend who appealed to the noble Lord to withdraw his Amendment said that the small rural parish councils would be incompetent to carry out the provisions of the Act. Surely there was no use in putting in an authority which would be incompetent.
  MR. RENSHAWsaid he did not suggest that the parish councils would be incompetent. What he did suggest was that many parish councils would not be large enough and would not have sufficient funds to meet the necessary regulations which would be laid down by the Secretary of State.
  MR. BANBURYsaid he was wrong. He should have said that many of the parish councils would be unable to carry
  1552
  out the provisions of the Act, but if they were unable they would also be incompetent. He would ask the Solicitor General for Scotland whether it would not be possible to substitute the county council in Scotland for the parish council. He thought that would probably carry out what the noble Lord had in view.
  *THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. SCOTT DICKSON, Glasgow, Bridgeton): With reference to the suggestion to substitute the county council for the parish council, I may point out that in Scotland the management and control of burial grounds under the Burial Acts have hitherto been vested in bodies whose powers are derived entirely from the parish. They were the parochial boards and are now the parish councils, and I am afraid it would lead to confusion and very great difficulty in administration if a body with such a large area as a county council were to be brought in to deal with matters which are really matters of parochial administration. Therefore, looking at the legislation existing in Scotland in this matter, I think that the right of saying whether a crematorium should or should not be erected should be with the parish council, and not with the county council. Of course the House will observe that the clause is merely an empowering clause, not a compelling clause. With reference to the observations of the noble Lord, I think it may be left to the well-known caution of the Scotch that they will not indulge in any superfluity of extravagance.
  EARL PERCYsaid of course it was very difficult for an Englishman, ignorant of the details of local government in Scotland, to discuss the matter. He understood there was substantial agreement between his noble friend and the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill. His noble friend said that the parish councils in many cases would not be the proper authority, and would not have sufficient funds to enable it to carry out the provisions of the Act. That was acknowledged by the hon. Member in charge of the Bill.
  MR. RENSHAWsaid he begged to correct a misapprehension on the part of

  1553
  the noble Lord. He was not in charge of the Bill in any way. An hon. Member opposite was in charge of it.
  EARL PERCYsaid the hon. Member was in charge of the particular clause extending the Bill to Scotland. The hon. Member admitted that the small rural authorities would not be in a position to comply with the regulations which would be laid down by the Secretary of State, but he said there was no intermediary body between the large borough councils and the parish councils in Scotland. He suggested that it might be possible to accept his noble friend's Amendment if a limit of population were inserted, so as to provide that no parish council should be entrusted with powers under the Act unless it represented a certain population.
  MR. JORDANsaid the noble Lord would be well advised to withdraw his
  Amendment. He seemed to be nervous about the extravagance of the parish councils, but if they had no money they would not be able to build crematoria. The noble Lord answered himself, because he said the parish councils would have no rating power to meet such expenditure, and if they had no rating power they could not expend the money.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid if the provisions had been mandatory he could have understood the objection of the noble Lord, but the Bill was only an enabling Bill, and therefore the objection of the noble Lord did not apply at all. The truth of the matter was that a Scotch debate might often be dull, but it was never ridiculous until Englishmen interfered.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 249; Noes, 104 (Division List, No. 281.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Colville, John

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

  Aguew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Grant, Corrie

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Crombie, John William

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cullinan, J.

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS. Edm'nds

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Daly, James

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Denny, Colonel

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Balfour, Maj K. R. (Christchurch

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Hammond, John

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Dillon, John

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Doogan, P. C.

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Bell, Richard

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Blake, Edward

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Boland, John

  Dunn, Sir William

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Bond, Edward

  Edwards, Frank

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Charles H.

  Brigg, John

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Henderson, Alexander

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Brookfield, Colonel Montague

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Hill, Arthur

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Bull, William James

  Fenwick, Charles

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Burns, John

  Ffrench, Peter

  Holland, William Henry

  Burt, Thomas

  Finch, George H.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Caldwell, James

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Cameron, Robert

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Hoult, Joseph

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Fitzroy, Hon. Ed ward Algernon

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Cawley, Frederick

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Johnstone Heywood (Sussex)

  Collings, Rt. Hn. Jesse

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Joicey, Sir James

  Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Spear, John Ward

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C R (Northants

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Stevenson, Francis L.

  Kinloch, Sir John George S.

  O'Malley, William

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Knowles, Lees

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Laurie, Lieut.- General

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Strachey, Edward

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Parker, Gilbert

  Sullivan, Donal

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Partington, Oswald

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings)

  Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S.

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington)

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Lloyd-George, David

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)

  Tomkinson, James

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Lowe, Francis William

  Price, Robert John

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

  Purvis, Robert

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Lundon, W.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Rea, Russell

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Reckitt, Harold James

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  M'Crae, George

  Reddy, M.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  M'Govern, T.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Milton, Viscount

  Rigg, Richard

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid)

  Mooney, John J.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh, N.)

  Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Myers, William Henry

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'ld

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Russel, T. W.

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Rutherford, John

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Norman, Henry

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire

  Renshaw and Mr. Wallace.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Kimber, Henry

  Aird, Sir John

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Delany, William

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Lawson, John Grant

  Austin, Sir John

  Duffy, William J.

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Field, William

  Macartney, Rt. Hon. W. G. E.

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Bignold, Arthur

  Flower, Ernest

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Boyle, James

  Forster, Henry William

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Butcher, John George

  Gilhooly, James

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Gretton, John

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Caxendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Murphy, John

  Chapman, Edward

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Coddington, Sir William

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Helder, Augustus

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  O'Dowd, John

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Mara, James

  Crean, Eugene

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  O'Shaughnessy, P. C.

  1556

  1557

  Penn John

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thorn. Myles

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E. (Taunton

  Percy, Earl

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Whfte, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tynesd.

  Williams. Rt. Hn J Powell- (Birm.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich

  Wylie, Alexander

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Rash, Major Frederick, Carne

  Stock, James Henry

  Younger, William

  Renwick, George

  Stroyan, John

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Rochie, John

  Tufnel, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Lord Hugh Cecil and Mr.

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehonse)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Banbury.

  EARL PERCYsaid he desired to move in line 3, after the word "burgh," to insert "of more than 10,000 inhabitants." It was quite true that the clause was not mandatory, but merely permissive, but it was ridiculous to give power to a parish council to build a crematorium which had no power to raise the necessary money. Every parish of 10,000 inhabitants would, however, have power to raise sufficient money to cover any reasonable expenditure, and he ventured to think that the Amendment might be accepted.
  Amendment proposed—
  "After the word 'burgh,' to insert the words 'of more than ten thousand inhabitants.'"—(Earl Percy.)
  Question proposed, "That those words fee there inserted."
  LORD HUGH CECILsaid he could not conceive a more slovenly or clumsy way of legislating than passing a Bill giving all kinds of powers to an authority without inquiring whether that authority could use them or not. The hon. Member for South Tyrone conceived that because he represented an Irish constituency he was entitled to reprove Englishmen for discussing Scottish matters, but it was very difficult to accept that view. At any rate, hon. Members who understood Scottish institutions should have some regard to making the Bill a proper measure. No information had been given as to why his noble friend's Amendment should not be accepted, and up to the present they had not been treated to anything but severe silence, just as if, in discussing the powers of a parish council, they were trespassing on sacred ground, on which It was almost profane to enter. He hoped they would have a proper and
  1558
  respectful answer to the argument of his noble friend.
  *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid there was one condition which the House always insisted upon, and that was that when an hon. Member took part in a discussion he should have some elementary knowledge of the subject. The noble Lord who complained that the Amendment had been treated with severe silence said that the parish councils would have no power to provide funds for erecting crematoria.
  LORD HUGH CECIL: It was stated in the last debate.
  *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid the statement was inaccurate. If the noble Lord had taken the trouble to inform himself on the matter, as he ought to have done before criticising the Bill, he would have found that every parish council had power to raise money by loan for certain purposes.
  LORD HUGH CECILasked what was the limit.
  *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid he declined to turn the House of Commons into an elementary school-room.
  LORD HUGH CECILsaid the hon. Gentleman accused him of being ignorant of the subject, but he himself would also appear to be ignorant of it.
  *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that might be; but some Members of the House would, at any rate, know that he had given a great deal of attention to these matters. It seemed to him that the ignorance of some hon. Members was extraordinary. He only rose to make the suggestion that as this was a

  1559
  practical discussion, he did not think hon. Members had a right to get up and expect to be instructed in details with which they ought to have acquainted themselves beforehand.
  MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWENsaid he thought the position taken up by the hon. Member who had just spoken was very extraordinary. What had happened was that the hon. Member who introduced the new clause himself stated that the smaller parish councils would not have sufficient rating power to enable them to build crematoria. That was the only fact they had.
  *MR. CORRIE GRANTsaid that what had been stated was that there were some parish councils so small that they would not have the power of raising the necessary funds, but that a very large proportion of the parish councils would.
  MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWENsaid he was dealing with the fact as it had been
  stated by the hon. Member who introduced the clause. The clause extended the Bill to Scotland, and surely hon. Members had a right to discuss whether the means proposed were really adequate or not. They had been told that a large number of the parish councils would not be able to make use of the Act; why, then, should they be included. For his part, he would support the Amendment to limit the application of the Act to such authorities as could usefully make use of it.
  MR. RENSHAWsaid he would appeal to the House to support the clause in the form in which it had been read a second time. There were grave objections in practice to putting in the Bill a limitation of population.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 88; Noes, 268. (Division List No. 282.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

  Hammond, John

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Hardy, Laurence(Kent, Ashf'd

  Penn, John

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Hill, Arthur

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)

  Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

  Bignold, Arthur

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Butcher, John George

  Johnstone, Heywood- (Sussex

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Caldwell, James

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W (Salop.

  Renwick, George

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A(Glasgow

  Kimber, Henry

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Knowles, Lees

  Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Lawson, John Grant

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Spencer, E. (W. Bromwich)

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Delany, William

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Stock, James Henry

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lundon, W.

  Stroyan, John

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. W G Ellison

  Talbot, Rt. Hon. J. G. (Oxf'dU.)

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Macdona, John Gumming

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.

  Finch, George H.

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Flower, Ernest

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Forster, Henry William

  Murphy, J.

  White, Patrick (Meath, N.)

  Galloway, Wm. Johnson

  Myers, William Henry

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury)

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Earl Percy and Mr. Griffith-

  Grenfell, William Henry

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Boscawen.

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood. Capt. Sir Alex F.

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Austin, Sir John

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Aird, Sir John

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Balfour, Maj. K R (Christchurch

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Grant, Corrie

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Bell, Richard

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Bill, Charles

  Groves, James Grimble

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Blake, Edward

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Norman, Henry

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hain, Edward

  Norton, Captain Cecil Wm.

  Boland, John

  Hardie, J. Keir(Merthyr Tydvil

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Bond, Edward

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Harris, Fredk. Leverton

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn)

  Haslett, Sir James Homer

  O'Connor, James(Wicklow, W.

  Boyle, James

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  O'Doherty, William

  Brigg, John

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  O'Dowd, John

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Helme, Norval Watson

  O'Kelly, James (Rosc'mm'n,N.

  Burns, John

  Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Chas. H.

  O'Malley, William

  Burt, Thomas

  Henderson, Alexander

  O'Mara, James

  Cameron, Robert

  Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Parker, Gilbert

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edward H.

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Partington, Oswald

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Holland, Wm. Henry

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pease, Herb. Pike (Darlington

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hozier, Hn. Jas. Henry Cecil

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Price, Robert John

  Chapman, Edward

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edw.

  Coddington, Sir Wm.

  Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

  Purvis, Robert

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Pym, C. Guy

  Collings, Rt. Hn. Jesse

  Johnston, Wm. (Belfast)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Colville, John

  Joicey, Sir James

  Rea, Russell

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Jones, David Brynm'r (Swans'a

  Reckett, Harold James

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

  Reddy, M.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Jordon, Jeremiah

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Crean, Eugene

  Joyce, Michael

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Crombie, John William

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Kenyon, James (Lancs, Bury)

  Ridley, Hn M. W. (Stalybridge)

  Cullinan, J.

  Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth

  Rigg, Richard

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Kitson, Sir James

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Daly, James

  Lambert, George

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

  Denny, Colonel

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Robinson, Brooke

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Roche, John

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Dillon, John

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H.

  Ropner, Col. Robert

  Doogan, P. C.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Russell, T. W.

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Rutherford, John

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Leng, Sir John

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Duffy, William J.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Lock wood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Dunn, Sir Wm.

  Lough, Thomas

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Edwards, Frank

  Lowe, Francis William

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst'e)

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  M'Crae, George

  Smith, H C (North'mb. T'nes'de

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  M'Govern, T.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Mappin, Sir Frdk. Thorpe

  Spear, John Ward

  Ffrench, Peter

  Mather, William

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (North'ts

  Field, William

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Meysey-Thomson, Sir H. M.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Strachey, Edward

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Frederick G.

  Sullivan. Donal

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Milton, Viscount

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Thomas, David Alf red (Merth'r

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Mooney, John J.

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Morgan, David J. (Walthams'w

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r

  Garfit, William

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Thomson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F.

  Tomkinson, James

  Gore, Hn G R. C. Ormsby-(Salop

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  1562

  1563

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Williams, Rt. Hn J Powell-(Birm

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Wylie, Alexander

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Younger, William

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Wilson-Todd, Wm H. (Yorks.)

  Mr. Renshaw and Mr.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Wallace.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Wolff, Gastav Wilhelm

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

  MR. SCOTT DICKSON: The clause as it at present stands, that "the expression 'burial authority' shall mean the parish council or town council of any parish or burgh, as defined in Sections 2 and 3 of 'Burial Grounds (Scotland) Act, 1855,'" is not quite accurate. Neither of these bodies are defined in these sections. I propose to leave out the words "defined in Sections 2 and 3 of" for the purpose of substituting "as the case may be, vested with the powers and duties conferred by."
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out the words 'defined in sections two and three of,' and insert the words 'the case may be vested with the powers and duties conferred by.'"—(Mr. Solicitor General for Scotland.)
  Question, "That the words 'defined in Sections 2 and 3 of' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
  Question put, "That the words 'the case may be vested with the powers and duties conferred by' be there inserted."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 309; Noes, 51. (Division List No. 283.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F.

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Ffrench, Peter

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Finch, George H.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Cawley, Frederick

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Aird, Sir John

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Anson, Sir Wm. Reynell

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. A.

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Chapman, Edward

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Fletcher, Sir Henry

  Ashton, Thomas Gain

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Flower, Ernest

  Atkinson, Rt. Hn. John

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Austin, Sir John

  Colville, John

  Forster, Henry Wm.

  Bain, Col. James Robert

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Foster, Sir W. (Derby County)

  Baird, John G. Alexander

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Garfit, William

  Balfour, Maj. K. R. (Christchch

  Crombie, John William

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Gore, Hn G R C. Ormsby-(Salop)

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Grant, Corrie

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Bell, Richard

  Daly, James

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ry S Edm'nds

  Bignold, Arthur

  Denny, Colonel

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Blake, Edward

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Grenfell, Wm. Henry

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Bond, Edward

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cock field

  Gretton, John

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Doogan, P. C.

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Douglas, Chas. M. (Lanark)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Brigg, John

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hain, Edward

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nd'ry

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Dunn, Sir Wm.

  Hammond, John

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Edwards, Frank

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd

  Burns, John

  Elibank, Master of

  Harms worth, R. Leicester

  Burt, Thomas

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidst'ne

  Haslett, Sir James Homer

  Butcher, John George

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Caldwell, James

  Fenwick, Charles

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Cameron, Robert

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasg'w

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

  Milton, Viscount

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Henderson, Alexander

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Samuel, Harry, S. (Limehouse)

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. M.

  Hill, Arthur

  Mooney, John J.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow

  Shipman, Dr. John

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Morley, Chas. (Breconshire)

  Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire).

  Holland, Wm. Henry

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F

  Smith, H C (N'rth'mb. Tyneside

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptford)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Houldsworth, Sir W. Henry

  Morton, Ed w. J. C. (Devonport)

  Spear, John Ward

  Hoult, Joseph

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R Northants

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Myers, William Henry

  Spencer, E. (W. Bromwich)

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Norman, Henry

  Stock, James Henry

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Norton, Captain Cecil Wm.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Stroyan, John

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley

  Joicey, Sir James

  O'Doherty, Wm.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Jones, David Brynm'r (Swansea

  O'Malley, William

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uni.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)

  Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

  Kearley, Hudson

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Parker, Gilbert

  Thomas, J A (Gl'morgan, Gower-

  Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop)

  Partington, Oswald

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Kimber, Henry

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Tomkinson, James

  Kitson, Sir James

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlingt'n

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray.

  Knowles, Lees

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

  Penn, John

  Tufnell, Lt-Col. Edward

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Percy, Earl

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Perks, Robert Wm.

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. William Edw. H.

  Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan)

  Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E (Taunton

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wentworth, B. C. Vernon-

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Price, Robert John

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L.

  Leng, Sir John

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Purvis, Robert

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Pym, C. Guy

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rankin, Sir James

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Rea, Russell

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth.

  Lough, Thomas

  Reckitt Harold James

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Lowe, Francis William

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Lowther, Rt. Hn. Jas. (Kent)

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk, Mid.)

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Renwick, George

  Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.).

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E.

  Rickitt, J. Compton

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Macdona, John Gumming

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (St'lybr'dge

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath,

  M'Crae, George

  Rigg, Richard

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshre)

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd,

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Malcolm, Ian

  Robinson, Brooke

  Wylie, Alexander

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East).

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W F.

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Younger, William

  Maxwell, W. J. H Dumfries-sh.

  Ropner, Col. Robert

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Mildmay. Francis Bingham

  Russell, T. W.

  Mr. Renshaw and Mr.

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Fredk, F.

  Rutherford, John

  Wallace.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Field, William

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Cullinan, J.

  Gilhooly, James

  Boland, John

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

  Boyle, James

  Delany, William

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Duffy, William J.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Coddington, Sir William

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.).

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  1566

  1567

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Roche, John

  Lambert, George

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Shaw, Charles E. (Stafford)

  Laurie, Lt.-General

  O'Dowd, John

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Lundon, W.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Warner, Courtenay T.

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  M'Fadden, Edward

  O'Mara, James

  M'Govern T.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Murphy, John

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Mr. Crean and Thomas

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  O'Donnell.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Reddy, M.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Md

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Clause, as amended, added.
  *MR. LEES KNOWLES: The new clause which I have now the honour to move must commend itself to the House. It is—
  "No crematorium shall be constructed nearer to any dwelling house than two hundred yards, except with the consent in writing of the owner, lessee, and occupier of such house."
  I think it would be very objectionable to place a crematory close to a private residence. It would offend the eye with its huge chimney, and offend the ear by the tolling of the bell. Moreover, a householder does not care to see funerals constantly passing close to his house. Then from a public point of view a crematory erected in a suburb might cause a distinct interference with the systematic growth of the locality, and our suburbs require every protection. I do not say that 200 yards is a proper distance, and I would be quite open to accept an amendment. I do not know how many of these crematories we are going to have placed in the land, especially if small public bodies are to have the power to raise money for building them. I do not say that they will necessarily be placed next to private dwellings or in our suburbs. I can imagine them being used as landmarks, and a crematory being erected on the heights of Snowdon, or of Helvellyn, or of Ben Nevis, or even on the top of Croagh Patrick. The 200 yards may appear to be an arbitrary distance, but I have taken it from Section 10 of the Cemeteries Clauses Act of 1847. In considering this matter I was very much interested in reading the report on the

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Anson, Sir William Reynell

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud)

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Sanitary Condition of the Labouring Classes of Great Britain in 1843, which contains much information in regard to cemeteries. Great consideration was given to the situation in which cemeteries should be placed; and the report stated that, in general, public cemeteries should be placed to the east, north, or north-east of our towns, because the south and south-west winds were usually moist, and would carry the putrefactive gases over the town more readily than east, north, or north-east winds, which were dry. The same consideration ought to be given in regard to the situation of crematories. I beg to move—
  New Clause (Site of Crematorium) brought up, and read the first time.—(Mr. Lees Knowles.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause be read a second time."
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (SIR EDWARD CARSON,): So far as the Government is concerned we have no objection to this new clause. It is in accordance with the Cemeteries Clauses Act which raises exactly the same question, and it would be well to have a uniform area. I desire, however, to enter a protest against these places being called crematories, as they might be mixed up with creameries in Ireland.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Aves, 293; Noes, 57. (Division List No. 284.)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Flower, Ernest

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Bain, Col. James Robert

  Forster, Henry William

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  M'Arthur, William (Cornw'll)

  Balfoar, Maj. K R (Christchurch

  Galloway, Wm. Johnson

  M'Crae, George

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Garfit, William

  M'Govern, T.

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Grant, Corrie

  Malcolm, Ian

  Bell, Richard

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Greene, Sir E W (B'y S Edm'nds)

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F

  Blake, Edward

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Grenfell, Wm. Henry

  Mellor, Rt. Hon. John Wm.

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Gretton, John

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Brigg, John

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Fred. G.

  Brookfield, Col. Montagu

  Groves, James Grimble

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Burt, Thomas

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Mooney, John J.

  Butcher, John George

  Hain, Edward

  Morgan, David J. (Walthamst.)

  Caldwell, James

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'donderry

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Cameron, Robert

  Hammond, John

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A (Glasgow

  Hardy, L. (Kent, Ashford)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Carlile, William Walter

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Myers, William Henry

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Henderson, Alexander

  Norman, Henry

  Chapman, Edward

  Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hill, Arthur

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Coddington, Sir William

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  O'Doherty, William

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hogg, Lindsay

  O'Malley, William

  Colville, John

  Holland, William Henry

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Palmer, Sir C. M. (Durham)

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Partington, Oswald

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry C.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Waiden)

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Pease, Sir J. W. (Durham)

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Joicey, Sir James

  Penn, John

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jones, David B. (Swansea)

  Percy, Earl

  Daly, James

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Perks, Robert William

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Denny, Colonel

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W (Salop)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Kimber, Henry

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Price, Robert John

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edw.

  Donelan, Capt. A.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Purvis, Robert

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.

  Rea, Russell

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Dunn, Sir William

  Lawson, John Grant

  Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

  Edwards, Frank

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Elibank, Master of

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. Wm. E. H.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Emmott, Alfred

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Renwick, George

  Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Fenwick, Charles

  Leng, Sir John

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Rigg, Richard

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Ffrench, Peter

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Finch, George H.

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.

  Robinson, Brooke

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lough, Thomas

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lowe, Francis William

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Ropner, Col. Robert

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W.

  Fletcher, Sir Henry

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th)

  Rutherford, John

  1570

  1571

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne-

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Sullivan, Donal

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Sharpe, William Edw. T.

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Thomas, J A (Gl'm'rgan, Gower)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Wilson, Fred W. (Norfolk, Mid.

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Wilson, Hy. J. (York, W. R.)

  Smith, H C (Northmb, Tyneside

  Tomkinson, James

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Spear, John Ward

  Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

  Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R. (North'nts)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

  Wallace, Robert

  Wyhe, Alexander

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Younger, William

  Stock, James Henry

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wason, E. (Clackmannan)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Strachey, Edward

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Mr. Knowles and Mr.

  Stroyan, John

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Griffith-Bowscawen.

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Austin, Sir John

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Rasch, Maj. Frederic Carne

  Bignold, Arthur

  Joyce, Michael

  Reddy, M.

  Boland, John

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Boyle, James

  Labouchere, Henry

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Lambert, George

  Roche, John

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Lundon, W.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Cullinan, J.

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Murphy, John

  Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A C E. Taunton

  Delany, William

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, S.)

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Doogan, P. C.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Duffy, William J.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North).

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Field, William

  O'Dowd, John

  Mr. Crean and Mr. Thos.

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  O'Donnell.

  Greene, Walford D (Wednesb'y

  O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.)

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs

  O'Mara, James

  Clause added.
  MR. LEES KNOWLESmoved to insert the following clause—
  "A burial authority may accept a donation of land for the purpose of a crematorium, and a donation of money or other property for enabling them to acquire, construct, or maintain a crematorium."
  He said the clause dealt with the law of mortmain, but he did not think it
  needed any explanation; at any rate, he would not trouble the House with one.
  Another clause (Donations of land, &c.)—(Mr. Lees Knowles)—brought up, and read the first time.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the clause be read a second time."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 299; Noes,. 51. (Division List No. 285.)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Malcolm, Ian

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Burt, Thomas

  Grant, Corrie

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Butcher, John George

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Maxwell, Rt. Hn. Sir H E (Wigt'n

  Caldwell, James

  Greene, Sir E. W. B'ry S. Edmnds

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries-sh-

  Cameron, Robert

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Mellor, Rt. Hn. John William

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Glasgow

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Carlile, William Walter

  Gretton, John

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Milner, Rt. Hn. Sir Fredk. G.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Cawley, Frederick

  Groves, James Grimble

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Montagu, Hn. J. Scott (Hants)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Mooney, John J.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hain, Edward

  Morgan, David J. (Walthm'w

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Hammond, John

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent Ashf'd

  Morley, Chas. (Breconshire)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Harmsworth, R. (Leicester)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Chapman, Edward

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F.

  Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Coddington, Sir William

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Colville, John

  Henderson, Alexander

  Myers, William Henry

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Hill, Arthur

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

  Norman, Henry

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Holland, William Henry

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Doherty, William

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  O'Malley, William

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Daly, James

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Denny, Colonel

  Jones, David (Brynmr Swansea

  Partington, Oswald

  Dewar, T. R (T'rH'ml'ts, S. Geo.)

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Pease, Herbert Pike (Darlington

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Kenyon, James (Lancs., Bury)

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Penn, John

  Dillon, John

  Kimber, Henry

  Percy, Earl

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred Dixon

  Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

  Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore

  Laurie, Lieut-General

  Price, Robert John

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Lawson, John Grant

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Dunn, Sir William

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Purvis, Robert

  Edwards, Frank

  Lecky, Rt. Hn. Wm. Edw. H.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Elibank, Master of

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rea, Russell

  Emmott, Alfred

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Leng, Sir John

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Renwick, George

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lloyd-George, David

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lough, Thomas

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

  Field, William

  Lowe, Francis William

  Rigg, Richard

  Finch, George H.

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edw. Algernon

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Fletcher, Sir Henry

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Russell, T. W.

  Flower, Ernest

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Rutherford, John

  Forster, Henry William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  M'Crae, George

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles-

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  M'Govern, T.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Seely, Charles Hilton (Lincoln)

  Garfit, William

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  1574

  1575

  Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tynesi'e

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Spear, John Ward

  Tufnell, Lt-Col. Edward

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants

  Vincent, Col Sir C. E. H (Sheffield

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Wallace, Robert

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Stock, James Henry

  Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Hudd'rsfid

  Strachey, Edward

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley

  Weir, James Galloway

  Wylie, Alexander

  Sullivan, Donal

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Younger, William

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Thomas, F. Freeman-(Hastings)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-un-Lyne

  Thomas, J. A. Glamorgan Gow'r

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr.

  Thompson, Dr E C (Monaghan N

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Knowles and Mr. Griffith-

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Boscawen.

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  O'Mara, James

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Lambert, George

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Boland, John

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Lundon, W.

  Reddy, M.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Redmond, Wm. (Clare)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Cullinan, J.

  Murphy, John

  Roche, John

  Delany, William

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Shaw, Chas. Edw. (Stafford)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Duffy, William J.

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E (Taunton)

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury

  O'Dowd, John

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Green, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Mr. Crean and Mr. Thomas

  Hay den, John Patrick

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  O'Donnell.

  Clause added.
  MR. MACARTNEYmoved the following clause—
  "In the application of this Act to Ireland the expression 'burial authority' shall mean the urban sanitary authority or the rural sanitary authority as defined in Sections 22 and 33 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898; the expressions 'the Local Government Board' and 'the Secretary of State' shall mean the Local Government Board (Ireland)."
  The only argument which he thought it necessary to advance in support of this clause was that the reasons which rendered it desirable that crematoriums should be established in England and Scotland applied equally to Ireland. He desired to correct a misapprehension which arose from a statement made in the Grand Committee. An hon. Member there said there were no burial boards in Ireland. But in that he was wrong, for boards had existed since
  1576
  1856 which exercised the powers of burial boards in the same way as in England and Scotland.
  Another clause (Definitions (Ireland)—(Mr. Macartney)—brought up, and read the first time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the clause be read a second time."
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid that, being in charge of the Bill, he desired to correct the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite as to what took place in the Grand Committee. There was no question as to the non-existence of burial boards in Ireland. It was never the intention of anyone connected with the Bill to extend its provisions to Ireland. He objected in the strongest way to its being extended to that country;

  1577
  he had the greatest sympathy with those who objected to the extension, and he hoped his hon. friends on that side of the House would assist him in resisting the proposal. Ireland had unfortunately a smaller population than any other part of the United Kingdom. It was only in dense populations that the Bill was desirable in the interests of public health, and he had no desire to force it upon any community, the greater portion of which was opposed to it.
  MR. JOHN REDMONDcould not conceive it possible that the House of Commons would force the Bill on Ireland against what was practically the opinion of the whole of the people of the country. The hon. Member who had moved the Amendment was no doubt an Irishman, but if a division were taken it would be seen that there was an overwhelming majority of opinion of Irish Members sitting in every quarter of the House against the Bill. It was never seriously suggested before the Committee that it should be extended to Ireland, and when an Amendment was moved to extend it to Scotland he opposed it, very largely on the ground that the matter had not been discussed by the Committee, and because he did not think it fair at the last moment to spring the proposal upon the Committee, especially as he had not had an opportunity of ascertaining what was the view of the majority of Scotch Members. He was, therefore, perfectly consistent in taking the same position now in regard to Ireland. It seemed to him absolutely impossible to entertain the proposal seriously. The application of the Bill to Ireland would undoubtedly for most deeply resented by an overwhelming majority of the people. It would be a shock to their feelings. Anyone who knew the country knew that the religious feeling of the great majority would be outraged by the application of the Bill to their country, and without asking whether that feeling was reasonable or not, it would be a monstrous thing at the last moment if this was forced upon Ireland against the protest of the overwhelming majority of Irish Members, that he trusted the House of Commons would have more fairness and more common sense than to attempt to do anything of the kind.
  SIR EDWARD CARSON: I hope the House will reject the Amendment. Let me remind hon. Members what is the real object of this Bill. Cremation is existent in England and Scotland, it can be carried on without any kind of interference by any authority, and I say it is a matter of importance, seeing that the practice is growing, that there should be some supervision by a Government department of the conditions under which bodies are burned. But no such necessity exists in Ireland. I do not believe there is a single crematorium in that country, neither is there any system of burning bodies. If that is so, why should we, in the face of the opposition of the greater part of the Irish Members, burden the Bill by including Ireland? Do not let us allow ourselves to be led away from what are the real objects of the Bill by attempting to apply to Ireland a state of affairs in no way applicable to that country.
  *MR. HEMPHILLjoined in the protest of the right hon. Gentleman opposite against the extension of this Bill to Ireland, where such a course would create the greatest possible revulsion of feeling. He had never heard of a single case of cremation in Ireland, although the practice was common in England. They ought not, at the instance of a small handful of Members, make a change which would be so repugnant to the feelings of the Irish people.
  MR. MORRIS, speaking as an Irishman, urged the House not to accept the proposal, which was positively repugnant to the ideas of the Irish people, who possessed strong reverential, conscientious feelings on these questions. It was not the case that the reasons which justified the application of the Bill to England and Scotland applied equally to Ireland. There might be over-population in parts of the former countries, but in Ireland emigration was on the increase, and the population was decreasing. The least they could do for those who elected to remain in their native country was to ensure their decent burial in mother earth.
  MR. GRIFFITH BOSCAWENcould not understand the objection to the clause. The Bill was purely optional,

  1579
  and it was ridiculous to talk of forcing it on Ireland. How could they enforce a purely optional clause? They had been told that the Irish people did not want the Bill, but, after all, the object was merely to regulate the use of crematoria, and if, as was quite possible, one were ever set up in Ireland it ought to be subject to supervision in the same way as those in England and Scotland. He hoped his right hon. friend would press his clause to a division.
  MR. BANBURYagreed with the last speaker. There was no desire to force anything disagreeable on Ireland, but they had been warned that by means of cremation crime might be concealed, and any legislation calculated to prevent the concealment of crime was equally good for England, Scotland, and Ireland. The Bill did not compel the establishment of crematoria; it simply provided for their proper supervision when set up. It was purely optional in its operation.
  LORD HUGH CECILsaid he had listened with great attention to the remarks of the hon. Member for Waterford, and he was sure the House would desire to attach the utmost weight to the views of Irish representatives on Irish questions. But he would like to point out that this was not a Bill to establish crematoria in Ireland. The hon. Member's objection was really an objection to the practice of cremation, which, no doubt, was opposed to the ideas of the majority of the Irish people. But this

  AYES.

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'ml'ts, S. Geo.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Bain, Col. James Robert

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Hain, Edward

  Baird, John George Alex.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'donderry)

  Balfour, Maj K. R (Christch'rch)

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph C.

  Hardy, Laurence (Kent, Ashf'd)

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. D.

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor)

  Doxford, Sir William T.

  Henderson, Alexander

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

  Brymer, William Ernest

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich

  Carlile, William Walter

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Flower, Ernest

  Hoult, Joseph

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Garfit, William

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow)

  Godson, Sir Augustus F.

  Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Kimber, Henry

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Greene, Sir E W (B'ryS Edm'nds

  Laurie, Lt.-General

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Leng, Sir John

  Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

  Greene, W. Raymond-(Cambs.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Denny, Col.

  Gretton, John

  Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent).

  Bill did not come within the scope of that objection. Still, the objection of hon. Members below the gangway opposite were much more reasonable than that put forward by hon. Gentlemen above the gangway. As to the point of population, the Bill had been extended to Orkney and Shetland, so that it did not lie in the mouths of the promoters of the Bill to say that it should not be extended to Ireland. There were portions of that country which were very populous indeed—Belfast, for instance. There was no opposition to the Bill in the north of Ireland. No doubt in three parts of the country the Bill would be a dead letter, but that was no reason why it should not be applied to the neighbourhood of Belfast, as well as to Glasgow. He could understand the opposition of the Irish Members below the gangway, but the arguments of those above the gangway deserved no respect whatever.
  It being half-past Five of the clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded to interrupt the Business.
  Whereupon Sir WALTER FOSTER rose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put"; but Mr. Speaker withheld his assent, because he was of opinion that the House was prepared to come to an immediate decision without that motion.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 113; Noes, 251. (Division List No. 286.)

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Thornton, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

  Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  M'Laren, Chas. Benjamin

  Purvis, Robert

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Rankin, Sir James

  Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.)

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Willoughby de Eresby. Lord

  Milner, Rt. Hon. Sir Frederick G.

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Ropner, Col. Robert

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel A.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Murray, Col. W. (Bath)

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Younger, William

  Myers, William Henry

  Seely, Chas. Hilton (Lincoln)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Newdigate, Francis A.

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Mr. Macartney and Mr. Griffith-Boscawen.

  Nicol, Donal Ninian

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Cullinan, J.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Hy.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Daly, James

  Jessel, Capt. Herb. Merton

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Delany, William

  Jones, David B. (Swansea)

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Dillon, John

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Austin, Sir John

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Joyce, Michael

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Doogan, P. C.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Donglas, Chas. M. (Lanark)

  Kenyon, J. (Lancs., Bury)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Duffy, William J.

  Keswick, William

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Kinloch, Sir John George S.

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

  Dunn, Sir William

  Kitson, Sir James

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Edwards, Frank

  Knowles, Lees

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Elibank, Master of

  Lambert, George

  Bignold, Arthur

  Emmott, Alfred

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Bigwood, James

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lawson, John Grant

  Blake, Edward

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst'ne

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Boland, John

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Boyle, James

  Fenwick, Charles

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Brigg, John

  Ferguson, R. C. M. (Leith)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r)

  Lough, Thomas

  Brookfield, Col. Montagu

  Ffrench, Peter

  Lowe, Francis William

  Brown, George M. (Edinburgh)

  Field, William

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Lundon, W.

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Burns, John

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Burt, Thomas

  Fletcher, Sir Henry

  M'Crae, George

  Butcher, John George

  Flynn, James Christopher

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  M'Govern, T.

  Caldwell, James

  Gilhooly, James

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Cameron, Robert

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert J.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Campbell, Rt. Hn J A. (Glasgow)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Campbell, John (Armagh S.)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Grant, Corrie

  Mellor, Rt. Hon John William

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Cayzer, Sir Chas. Wm.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Mooney, John J.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Gunter, Sir Robert

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Hammond, John

  Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

  Chapman, Edward

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Morley, Rt. Hn. J. (Montrose

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Morris, Hon. Martin H. F.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Murphy, J.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Colville, John

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Crean, Eugene

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Crombie, John Wm.

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Norman, Henry

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield Brightside

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  1582

  1583

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Redmond, Wm. (Clare)

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  O'Brien, Kendal (T'pp'r'ry Mid.

  Reid, Sir J. T. (Dumfries)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Renwick, George

  Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gower

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

  O'Doherty, William

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Thorburn, Sir Walter

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Rigg, Richard

  Tomkinson, James

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  O'Dowd, John

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Roche, John

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S)

  O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel W.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  O'Malley, William

  Round, James

  Wason, E. (Clackmannan)

  O'Mara, James

  Russell, T. W.

  Weir, James Galloway

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Rutherford, John

  Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Schwann, Charles E.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Shaw, Charles Edward (Stafford

  White, Patrick (Meath, N.)

  Partington, Oswald

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Pease, Alfred E. (Cleveland)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Pease, Herbt, P. (Darlington)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Pease, J. A. (Saffron Walden)

  Smith, H C (North'mb., T'neside

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Pease, Sir J. W. (Durham)

  Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wilson, John (Durham Mid.)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Spear, John Ward

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Speneer, Rt. Hn C R (Northants.)

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

  Price, Robert John

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Rasch, Major Frederick Carne

  Stock, James Henry

  Rea, Russell

  Strachey, Edward

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Reddy, M.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Sir Walter Foster and

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Mr. Wallace.

  Further consideration deferred till Wednesday next.

  NATIONAL GALLERY (PURCHASE OF ADJACENT LAND) [EXPENSES].
  Considered in Committee:—.
  (In the Committee.)
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of all Expenses incurred by the Commissioners of Works under any Act of the present session for the acquisition of certain land, near the National Gallery in London, and for other purposes connected therewith."—(Mr. Akers-Douglas.)
  Whereupon Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report progress; and ask leave to sit again" (Sir Thomas Esmonde)—put, and agreed to.
  Committee report progress; to sit again to-morrow.

  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT (RESIGNATION OF SEATS) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
  MEAT MARKING (IRELAND) BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed for to-morrow.
  YOUTHFUL OFFENDERS [EXPENSES].
  Committee to consider of authorising the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of contributions towards the cost of maintaining in custody children or young persons under any Act of the present session to amend the law relating to Youthful Offenders (King's recommendation signified), to-morrow.—(Mr. Secretary Ritchie.)
  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 2) BILL.
  "To apply a sum out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the year ending on the thirty-first day of March, one thousand nine hundred and two," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time to-morrow.

  HOUSE OF COMMONS ACCOMMODATION.
  Report, with Minutes of Evidence and Special Report, brought up, and read.
  Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 234.]

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 9) BILL.
  Reported, with an amended title (Provisional Order relating to Aylesbury

  1585
  (Rural) not confirmed; remaining Orders confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
  Bill, as amended, to be considered to-morrow.

BIGGLESWADE WATER BOARD BILL.

  FAVERSHAM WATER BILL [Lords].
  SHEFFIELD CORPORATION BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP O).
  Sir JAMES KITSONreported from the Committee on Group O of Private Bills, That at the meeting of the Committee this day a communication was received from Mr. Burke, one of the Members of the said Committee, stating that he was unable, on account of ill-health, to attend the Committee this day.
  Report to lie upon the Table.
  Adjourned at ten minutes before Six of the clock.