Sitting of 8 August 1901

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  BELFAST AND NORTHERN COUNTIES RAILWAY BILL.
  Order read for consideration of Lords' Amendments.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I object.
  MR. CALDWELL: May I point out that this is purely a verbal alteration which it is proposed to make. We only propose to omit the words "City and."
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I want to have a guarantee from the Secretary to the Treasury that mixed trains shall not be run on this line to the detriment of the public service.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member would not be entitled to raise that question on the Lords' Amendment.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: At any rate, I think it would be safer to put the Bill down for to-morrow.
  Lords' Amendments to be considered to-morrow.

  ALDEBURGH CORPORATION WATER BILL.
  Lords' Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  ILKESTON AND HEANOR WATER BOARD BILL.
  Lords' Amendment considered, and agreed to.

  STRATFORD-UPON-AVON, TOWCESTER, AND MIDLAND JUNCTION, EAST AND WEST JUNCTION AND EVESHAM, REDDITCH, AND STRATFORD-UPON-AVON JUNCTION RAILWAY COMPANIES BILL.
  SWANSEA HARBOUR BILL.
  WEST CUMBERLAND ELECTRIC TRAMWAYS BILL.
  WOLVERHAMPTON AND CANNOCK CHASE RAILWAY BILL.
  Lords' Amendments considered, and agreed to.

  LEEDS CORPORATION (GENERAL POWERS) BILL [Lords].
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  LEEDS CORPORATION WATER BILL [Lords].
  King's consent signified; Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  SOUTH LANCASHIRE TRAMWAYS BILL [Lords].
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  STRATTON AND BUDE IMPROVEMENT BILL [Lords].
  King's consent and Duke of Cornwall's consent signified; Bill read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.
  HARROGATE CORPORATION BILL [Lords].
  As amended, considered; an Amendment made; Bill to be read the third time.
  RUGBY WATER AND IMPROVEMENT BILL [Lords].
  As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the third time.

  GREENOCK CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
  [UNDER THE PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1899.]
  Read the third time and passed.

  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [Lords].
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (LONDON) (RE-COMMITTED) BILL [Lords].
  Mr. Boland, Mr. Griffith-Boscawen, Mr. Emmott, Sir John Gorst, Mr. Brynmor Jones, Mr. Arthur Morton, Mr. Platt-Higgins, and Sir Francis Powell nominated Members of the Select Committee on the Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London) Bill [Lords].
  Ordered, That such of the Petitioners as pray to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, Agent, or Witnesses be heard.
  Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
  Ordered, That three be the quorum."—(Sir William Walrond.)
  DR. MACNAMARA: Having regard to the extreme urgency of this matter, will it be possible for the Committee to meet to-morrow morning?
  THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir J. GORST, Cambridge University): Yes, Sir, it is proposed to meet to-morrow.
  DR. MACNAMARA: Will its action be confined to the Stepney site?
  SIR J. GORST: The reference is perfectly general. While I have no power to pledge the Committee in any way, I shall endeavour to confine the deliberations of the Committee to the question of site as raised by the Stepney Borough Council.

  LLANELLY HARBOUR BILL [Lords].
  Reported, without amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. Bill to be read the third time.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to, Edinburgh Corporation Order Confirmation Bill, Stirling Corporation Order Confirmation Bill, Kilmarnock Corporation Order Confirmation Bill, without amendment.
  That they have agreed to, Amendment to Bethlem Hospital Bill [Lords].
  That they have agreed to, Amendments to Easton and Church Hope

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  Railway Bill [Lords]; Heywood and Middleton Water Board Bill [Lords]; South Eastern and London, Chatham, and Dover Railways Bill [Lords]; Tyneside Tramways and Tramroads Bill [Lords]; Cardiff Railway Bill [Lords]; Cork, Blackrock, and Passage Railway Bill [Lords]: without amendment.

PETITION.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN BILL.
  Petition from Blaby, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of Lancaster, from Blackpool to Garstang (Blackpool and Garstang Light Railway Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the borough of Nelson, in the County Palatine of Lancaster (Nelson Light Railways Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the urban district of Barrowford, in the County Palatine of Lancaster (Barrowford Light Railway Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the borough of Colne and the urban district of Trawden, in the County Palatine of Lancaster (Colne and Trawden Light Railways Order,
  18
  1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the county of Essex between Chipping Ongar Station on the Great Eastern Railway and Great Bardfield (Central Essex Light Railway Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and confirmed by the Board of Trade, amending the Lizard Light Railway Order, 1898 (Lizard Light Railway (Extension of Time) Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the West Riding of the county of York between Wales and Laughton-en-le-Morthen (Wales and Laughton Light Railway Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the West Riding of the county of York and in the counties of Nottingham and Lincoln from Tickhill to Haxey (Tickhill Light Railway Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and confirmed by the Board of Trade, amending the Bridlington and North Frodingham Light Railway Order, 1898 (Bridlington and North Frodingham Light Railway (Extension of Time) Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Copy presented, of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and confirmed by the Board of Trade, amending the Great Western Railway (Pewsey and Salisbury) Light Railway Order, 1898, and the Pewsey and Salisbury (Devizes Branch) Light Railway Order, 1898 (Pewsey and Salisbury Light Railway

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  (Extension of Time) Order, 1901) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  RAILWAYS (GENERAL REPORT).
  Copy presented, of General Report to the Board of Trade on the Capital, Traffic, and Expenditure of the Railway Companies of the United Kingdom for the year 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  STATISTICAL ABSTRACT (UNITED KINGDOM.
  Copy presented, of Statistical Abstract for the United Kingdom in each of the last fifteen years from 1886 to 1900, Forty-eighth Number [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  STATISTICAL ABSTRACT (COLONIES).
  Copy presented, of Statistical Abstract for the Colonial and other Possessions of the United Kingdom in each of the last fifteen years from 1886 to 1900, Thirty-eighth Number [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1894 (VESSELS DETAINED).
  Copy presented, of Return of all Ships ordered by the Board of Trade, or its Officers, to be provisionally detained as unsafe, together with Summaries, etc. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  BOILER EXPLOSIONS ACTS, 1882 AND 1890.
  Copy presented, of Report to the Secretary of the Board of Trade upon the working of the Boiler Explosions Acts, 1882 and 1890, with Appendices (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper [C. 302] [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRAMWAYS (STREET AND ROAD).
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 8th July; Mr. Gerald Balfour]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 314.]

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD.
  Copy presented, of Thirtieth Annual Report of the Local Government Board, 1900–1901 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Supplement of the Thirtieth Annual Report of the Local Government Board, 1900–1901, containing the Report of the Medical Officer for 1900–1901 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Reports and Papers on Bubonic Plague, by Dr. R. Bruce Low, with an Introduction by the Medical Officer of the Local Government Board [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  NATIONAL GALLERY (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Report of the Director of the National Gallery of Ireland to the Board of Governors and Guardians for the year 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  LAND REGISTRY.
  Return presented, relative thereto [ordered 24th May; Mr. H. D. Greene]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 315.]
  FORESHORES.
  Copy presented, of Treasury Minute, dated 5th August, 1901, directing the application of moneys received by the Board of Trade in the year ended 31st March, 1901, in respect of the rights and interests of the Crown in the Foreshores of the United Kingdom [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  SOUTH AFRICA.
  Copy presented, of Correspondence relating to the Prolongation of Hostilities in South Africa [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  NAVY (COURTS-MARTIAL).
  Copy presented, of Return of the number of Courts Martial held and Summary Punishments inflicted during the year 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  NAVY (HEALTH).
  Copy presented, of Statistical Report of the Health of the Navy for the year 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 316.]

  NAVAL SAVINGS BANKS.
  Account presented, of Deposits in Naval Savings Banks, and the payment

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  thereof, and the interest thereon, etc., during the financial year 1899–1900 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table and to be printed. [No. 317.]

  NAVAL PRIZE MONEY.
  Account presented, showing the Receipt and Expenditure of Naval Prize, Bounty, Salvage, and other Moneys between the 1st April, 1900, and 31st March, 1901 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 318.]
  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (IRELAND) ACT, 1877 (RULES).
  Copy presented, of an Additional Rule and Schedule made by the Lord Chancellor and the Land Judge [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

  SOUTH AFRICA.
  Copy presented, of State of the Volunteer Service Companies raised in 1900 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented, of Report from Brigadier-General Dixon on the Operations at Vlakfontein on 29th May, 1901 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  BRITISH SHIPS (DESERTION OF SEAMEN ABROAD).
  Return ordered, "showing the number of Desertions and Failures to Join in various parts of the World, compiled from Articles of Agreement which terminated in the years 1898, 1899, and 1900 respectively."—(Mr. Hain.)

  JOINT STOCK COMPANIES.
  Return ordered, "of the names, objects, or business, places where business is or was conducted, date of registration, number of persons who signed the Memorandum of Association, total number of shares taken up by such subscribers, nominal capital, number of shares into which it is divided, number of shares taken up, amount of calls made on each share, and the total amount of calls received, of all Joint Stock Companies formed since the 1st day of January. 1900, to the 31st day of December, 1900, inclusive, distinguishing whether the Companies are limited or unlimited, and also the number of shareholders in each of the said Companies
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  at the date of the last Return, and whether still in operation or being wound up;
  "Of the total number having their registered offices in the City of London, or within five miles of the General Post Office;
  "And of the total number and the paid-up capital of all registered Companies which are believed to be carrying on business at the present time."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)

  SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE (DIVISIONS AND QUESTIONS).
  Return ordered, "showing for the years 1888–1901 the total number of Days on which the House sat, with the date of the first and last sitting in each Session; the total number of hours during which the House sat after midnight in each Session; the total number of Divisions in each Session; and the total number of Questions which appeared on the Notice Paper in each Session (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 0.131, of Session 1887)."—(Mr. Loder.)
QUESTIONS.

  SOUTH AFRICA—ARAB LABOUR FOR RHODESIA.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, as stated by the Administrator of Rhodesia at the opening of the Legislative Council at Salisbury, His Majesty's Government have given their sanction to the attempt now being made to obtain labour from Arabia; at what date such sanction was given, and by what stipulations on the part of the Government the sanction has been accompanied.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord G. HAMILTON, Middlesex, Ealing): The authorities at Aden were asked on the 29th of June to afford proper facilities for engaging Arab labourers for Southern Rhodesia. His Majesty's Government have stipulated that the Administration of Southern Rhodesia shall accept responsibility for the engagement of the labourers and

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  their transport to Southern Rhodesia, and shall secure the enactment of legislation for their protection which shall satisfy the requirements of His Majesty's Government.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: Will these labourers be obtained within the Aden district or from Southern Arabia in Turkish Territory?
  *LORD G. HAMILTON: We have no authority whatever over the population outside the British protectorate.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, as stated at the general meeting of the Buluwayo Chamber of Mines, an official of the British South Africa Company has been at Aden with a view to obtaining Arab labour at that place, and whether the Indian Government have made any of the stipulations with regard to the labour traffic from Aden such as they are in the habit of making with regard to labour traffic from India; whether Mr. Hole has already engaged 1,000 labourers under the sanction of the Imperial authorities.
  *LORD G. HAMILTON: The law governing emigration at Aden is the same as the law in India, but does not apply to Arabs from the interior, who are not British subjects. In the present case, therefore, I have satisfied myself that the Administration of Southern Rhodesia will introduce suitable legislation for the protection of Arab labourers, and I have authorised the Aden authorities to give such facilities to the company's official as may be proper. They will also see that the labourers fully understand the terms of their engagements, and are under no compulsion to accept them. I have not heard what number of labourers Mr. Hole has engaged. I am aware of the risks to which any experiment of this kind is liable, and the Aden authorities will watch it carefully.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: Have the Government of India any representative in Rhodesia who will communicate with them, or will the Colonial Office represent them?
  *LORD G. HAMILTON: The Indian Government has no representative in Rhodesia, but I believe it is well known that these Arabs will not work unless they are well treated; and, therefore, you have in that fact a guarantee for their good treatment which does not exist where weaker races are concerned.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: May I ask the noble Lord whether the legislation in South Rhodesia of which he spoke will be enacted before these men arrive or after?
  *LORD G. HAMILTON: The understanding is that the legislation shall be in force by the time they arrive.

  REGULATION OF NATIVE AND IMMIGRANT LABOUR.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the introduction into Rhodesia of persons of colour as immigrants for the purpose of labour are protected by provisions similar to those contained in the Trinidad Ordinance laid upon the Table of this House relating to "Immigrants introduced at private expense" (Acts 37–57) which permit such introductions only on order by the Governor and making the contract of service dependent on the approval of protector and proof that the parties entered in the contract voluntarily and with full knowledge of its meaning; and also whether such immigrants have the protection secured to them equivalent to those provided in the same Ordinance in respect to labour and wages (Part VIII.); and whether he will lay upon the Table the Regulations in force in Rhodesia relating to labour, whether of natives or of immigrants.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.): Up to the present time there has been practically no introduction of coloured labour from over-sea, but with a view to providing for such introduction an Ordinance has been passed within the last month by the Southern Rhodesia Legislative Council. I understand that this Ordinance makes provision for the appointment of a Protector of Immigrants, and for securing

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  in other ways the proper treatment of immigrants, but the actual text has not yet reached me. The labour of natives and immigrants in Southern Rhodesia has hitherto been regulated by the Cape law of master and servant, and I understand that an Ordinance codifying that law has been passed by the Legislative Council at their recent session. A copy will be laid on the Table when it is received.

  JOHANNESBURG REFUGEES.
  MR. MILDMAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will consider the advisability of making provision that on the return of refugee owners of house property to Johannesburg they should not be liable for payments in respect of rent, rates, and consumption of water for the period of time during which, in their absence, their houses have been occupied by the Boers.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The position of refugee owners of house property in Johannesburg has been under the consideration of His Majesty's Government, and it is possible that further legislation may be necessary. I am, however, advised that lessees of houses who were driven out when the war broke out would under the Roman Dutch Common Law, and also under a proclamation issued at the beginning of the war by the late President, be exempted from the Payment of rent for the whole of the period during which they were deprived of the beneficial occupation of the property leased. Proclamations have been issued to facilitate the recovery of furniture, etc., which has been removed, and for the trial of actions for recovery of money paid for water rates. The question of rates is one on which I have not full information, and I will make further inquiry.

  LAND SETTLEMENT IN SOUTH AFRICA.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the proposed expenditure of £500,000 on land settlement in South Africa will proceed on the lines laid down in the Report of the Land Settlement Commission;
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  if so, is it proposed to buy land and aid by Government funds men of small capital and little or no experience of farming to settle as farmers in South Africa.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: As I have already indicated, I am not prepared to make any further statement on the subject at present, but Lord Milner will report fully on the matter as soon as possible after his arrival.
  MR. LAMBERT: Will the scheme come before the House before any money is expended?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir. A Vote has been taken.

  SOUTH AFRICAN WAR—GENERAL KRUITZINGER'S THREAT AGAINST THE NATIVES.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he will lay upon the Table a copy of the instructions forwarded by the Government to Lord Kitchener for communication to General Kruitzinger.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Lord STANLEY, Lancashire, Westhoughton): The instructions to Lord Kitchener were contained in a telegram which ran as follows—
  "Acts of the nature referred to in your telegrams of the 1st August which Kruitzinger threatened, and which have been committed as stated therein, are contrary to the usages of civilised warfare. All persons therefore authorising or committing them should, if captured, immediately be brought to trial, and the penalty of death should be inflicted on them if they are found guilty. This decision may be communicated by General French to the Boer leaders."
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: May I ask whether we can have the message from General Kruitzinger which brought forth this instruction?
  LORD STANLEY: The only message we have is the one received from Lord Kitchener and published in Lord Kitchener's telegram, in which he gave the facts of the case.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: What I mean is the message from Kruitzinger himself.
  LORD STANLEY: I will consider that.

  FUTURE CONDUCT OF THE CAMPAIGN.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether it is intended in the future conduct of the campaign to discriminate between large and small bodies of the enemy, and whether the latter are to be denied belligerent rights.
  LORD STANLEY: The future conduct of the campaign must be left to Lord Kitchener, who will no doubt be guided by whether the enemy act as belligerents or contrary to the usages of war, irrespective of the numbers that may be fighting against us at any one time or place.
  MR. DILLON: Will the noble Lord, consistently with the statement he has just made, withdraw the telegram of instructions which has just been sent, controlling Lord Kitchener's action in this matter?
  LORD STANLEY: No, Sir; because I hold that what Kruitzinger threatened was contrary to the usages of war.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Is it understood, then, that in this matter Lord Kitchener is acting under the direct orders of His Majesty's Government from home?
  LORD STANLEY: No, Sir; Lord Kitchener in his telegram mentions the whole facts of the case, and he would naturally rely to some extent on the advice he got from home, but he certainly would act entirely on his own initiative.
  MR. FLAVIN: Has a date yet been fixed for Lord Kitchener's return?
  [No answer was given.]

  VLAKFONTEIN.
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether General Dixon's despatch, giving an account of the battle of Vlakfontein, has yet been received; if so, whether he will lay it upon the Table, together with the
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  full details which he is to communicate to the House in reference to that battle; whether he will also communicate to the House the sworn evidence as to killing of British wounded, promised in Lord Kitchener's despatch; and whether any reply has been received from General Delarey to the communication which Lord Kitchener addressed to him in reference to the alleged killing of British wounded at Vlakfontein.
  LORD STANLEY: Yes, Sir. The despatch will be laid immediately. In answer to the second paragraph, we have not yet received the sworn evidence. The answer to the third paragraph is "No."

  TRIAL OF REBELS—COETZEE'S CASE.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that a man named Coetzee was, on the 24th of June last, tried at Dordrecht by a Military Court, composed of a Lieutenant-Colonel of the Royal Irish Regiment and a Colonial Major and Lieutenant, on a charge of murder and high treason; that the evidence disclosed that a Boer picket had been surprised by Colonel Scobell's column on the 6th of June, and that two men, of whom the prisoner was one, were found with rifles and ammunition in a neighbouring donga, from which the witness thought shots were being fired; and that on this evidence against Coetzee, and the evidence of another witness, he was certain the prisoners were the sons of a British subject, Coetzee was convicted and executed; and whether, in view of the feeling among our Dutch fellow-subjects caused by military executions of this kind, he will direct that captured Boer soldiers who are alleged to be British subjects shall be reserved for trial by the ordinary courts.
  LORD STANLEY: I have no information concerning the first part of the question. In reply to the second part, it is impracticable to try men taken in arms against us by ordinary courts.

  EXECUTION OF REBELS—COMPULSORY ATTENDANCE OF BURGHERS.
  MR. PIRIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he

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  has obtained information from South Africa, and if he can communicate to the House what were the exceptional circumstances connected with the compulsion of British colonists to witness the execution of their countrymen at Dordrecht; who gave the order for such compulsion; if it was sanctioned by the Commander-in-Chief in South Africa, and, if not, whether the officer responsible for it has been punished; and whether these colonists were convicted criminals or prisoners; under what penalty did they attend, and what object was gained by such compulsion.
  LORD STANLEY: The report has not yet arrived.
  MR. PIRIE: Will the report arrive before the end of the session?
  LORD STANLEY: It is quite impossible for me to say when it will arrive.
  MR. PIRIE: On what date did you wire for the information?
  LORD STANLEY: I cannot say.
  MR. PIRIErose to put a further question—
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The question on the Paper has been fully answered.
  *MR. LEAMY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he has any official information to the effect that several of the leading inhabitants of Cradock have been deported for refusing to obey the order to attend the execution of Johannes Petrus Coetzee; and, if so, by whose order was the deportation carried out.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been called to the fact that all male adults in the township of Cradock were summoned by a public notice, headed by the title Martial Law, by Major C. C. Wiseman Clarke, Commandant Cradock District, to attend in the market square on the morning of Friday, 12th July, at a quarter to eleven, to witness the promulgation of the
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  sentence of death on Johannes Petrus Coetzee for high treason, and that the notice enjoined all places of business to be closed from half-past ten till after the promulgation of the sentence, and whether this notice had the sanction, either previous or subsequent, of Lord Kitchener.
  LORD STANLEY: In reply to these questions, I have no information on this subject.
  *MR. LEAMY: Will the noble Lord ascertain if there is any truth in this serious allegation that a number of men have been deported for refusing to witness an execution?
  LORD STANLEY: I understand we are to have a full report, and until that arrives it is impossible for me to say anything.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Is it not the fact that after the Dordrecht case orders were given that people should not be compelled to witness these executions?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That does not arise out of the question on the Paper.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Will the report be received before the prorogation of Parliament?
  [No answer was given.]
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: It is barbarous!
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Has the noble Lord any doubt that the proclamation was issued at Cradock? I have a copy of it here. It is a most atrocious thing, and yet the War Office have no information.
  MR. PIRIE: May I ask whether, pending the information being given to this House, this black practice will continue in South Africa?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! Such a question would not be put on the Paper.
  MR. PIRIE: Well, will the practice go on?
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Would I be in order in handing a copy of the proclamation to the noble Lord?
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member can do that privately.

  MILITARY OPERATIONS AT WATERKLOOF.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the military authorities have found it necessary to clear Waterkloof of its inhabitants, and whether over forty families have been sent to safe farms; can he state what is meant by "safe farms"; whether they are prison camps, and how far they are from Waterkloof. I do not wish to be out of order, but I notice that portion of my question as to whether Waterkloof is in Cape Colony has been cut out.
  *MR. SPEAKER: It is not usual to admit questions asking for information which could be obtained from any map. The matter, however, is not important, and I dare say had it been submitted to me I should have left it in the question.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I hope the clerks at the Table will note that.
  LORD STANLEY: I have no official information to enable me to reply to the question.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: When is the noble Lord likely to have the information, if indeed he ever gets any at all?
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: It's a case "where ignorance is bliss—"

  COLENSO—SERGEANT-MAJOR BURNEY'S CLAIM.
  MR. JEFFREYS: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether his attention has been drawn to the case of Sergeant Major Burney, Prince of Wales's Light Horse, who claims that he was one of the men who tried to rescue Captain Robert at Colenso, and who states that he is owed £145 by the War Office, for which he has made repeated applications, but has not yet received a penny; and what action it is proposed to take in the matter.
  LORD STANLEY: My attention has been drawn to this man's case, and I caused inquiries to be made by cable as to the truth of his statements. I have received the following reply—
  "Burney enlisted Durban 30th January, 1901; was acting squadron sergeant-major, and reduced to ranks by district court-martial 1st March; was in hospital some time, and discharged the service 17th May; was arrested by civil power 18th May, and fined for drunkenness five shillings or five days; no pay due to him; he left power of attorney at Standard Bank of South Africa; officer commanding Prince of Wales's Light Horse knows nothing about him, as he never joined the corps in the field; no trace of his name in any Natal irregular corps; he has made no application for passage out of South Africa, consequently, as far as military is concerned, he is still in South Africa."

  ROMAN CATHOLIC CHAPLAINS—REWARDS FOR WAR SERVICES.
  MR. DALY: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that, though Roman Catholic chaplains have distinguished themselves during the war in South Africa by their conduct in attending to the sick and wounded on the field of battle, no mention of this fact is made in the despatches from the seat of war, and if he can state the reason of this omission.
  LORD STANLEY: One Roman Catholic chaplain has already been mentioned and rewarded, and further names have been received since the publication of the last honours and are under consideration.
  MR. DALY: What was the nature of the reward given?
  LORD STANLEY: I cannot say without notice, but probably it was promotion from one grade to another. I cannot say definitely, however.

  MOUNTED INFANTRY VOLUNTEERS.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office if, having regard to the continuance of the war in South Africa, and the possibility of more mounted Volunteers being required, the Secretary of State will allow the mounted infantry companies formed by certain Volunteer corps at the instance of

  33
  the military authorities to remain until the expiration of their present engagement in 1904 upon the regulations as to capitation grant and allowances promulgated last September, bearing in mind that these companies do not compete with the new Imperial Yeomanry, being drawn for the most part from a different class.
  LORD STANLEY: Will my hon. friend kindly refer to my reply to a question put on this subject by my hon. friend the Member for Kilmarnock Burghs on Tuesday last.†

  IMPERIAL YEOMANRY—PAY AND FURLOUGH.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can announce the date on which the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, who recently returned from South Africa, will receive the pay due to them and their formal discharges; and whether he can state what length of furlough will be given to the men who have served for over a year in South Africa; and whether he will consider the advisability of paying the men up to the day when they are actually discharged and able to resume civil employment.
  LORD STANLEY: The men of this company were discharged seven days after arrival, having been granted the usual seven days furlough after disembarkation. They have been paid in accordance with general instructions an interim payment of four-fifths of the sum apparently due to them. They will receive all pay due to them as soon as ever the pay sheets are rendered.
  MR. BROMLEY-DAVENPORT: As the Financial Secretary to the War Office appears to throw responsibility for the payment or non-payment of the Imperial Yeomen on the officers commanding companies, may I ask him whether it is not almost impossible for officers to pay finally their men in this country until the pay sheets which are necessarily with the unit in South Africa, have been passed by the paymaster there?
  † See preceding Volume, page 1408.
  LORD STANLEY: My hon. friend is perfectly correct. The Yeomanry who have come back are time-expired men, and the unit to which they belong is still out in South Africa. The pay sheets, therefore, contain the names not only of the men still out there, but of all the men who have come home, and until the pay sheets are properly checked in South Africa and sent back it is impossible for the officers commanding companies properly to render the pay sheets. We are expediting matters in every way possible, and meanwhile we a re trying to alleviate matters by giving the men four-fifths of what is held to be due to them.

  CURRAGH CONTRACTS.
  MR. DELANY: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the contract for beer, stout, and Irish whisky to supply the troops in the Curragh district has been given to the Burton Brewery Company; and, if so, can he say what opportunity has been given Irish firms to compete, and for what term the present contract has been taken.
  LORD STANLEY: I am not aware that the contract has been so placed, but the matter is entirely one for the general officer commanding the district.
  MR. DELANY: Will the noble Lord inquire?
  LORD STANLEY: No, Sir.

  MILITARY EMPLOYMENT OF NATIVES.
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he will cause inquiries to be made as to whether Kaffirs in South Africa have been armed by the British to such an extent that there is scarcely a camp in South Africa where a few natives with well-filled bandoliers may not be seen, and whether he will inquire whether most of the British columns are now accompanied by armed native scouts.
  LORD STANLEY: No, Sir. I have no official information to this effect. It

  35
  would be contrary to all orders issued on the subject if natives were armed for offensive purposes. At the same time I will communicate with Lord Kitchener on the subject.
  MR. FLYNN: Will the noble Lord also communicate the answer to the Colonial Secretary?
  [No reply was made.]

  COLOURED MEN WITH THE BRITISH ARMY.
  MR. BROADHURST: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will state the number of coloured men employed in and about the British Army in the war in South Africa.
  LORD STANLEY: I have no information to enable me to give the numbers. No such record could possibly be kept.

  RESERVE OFFICERS' OUTFIT ALLOWANCES.
  COLONEL LEGGE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can explain why the outfit allowance for an officer of the Reserve recalled to service is the same as that for an officer promoted from the ranks in the infantry, but £50 less in the case of the cavalry, although a cavalry outfit is more expensive than an infantry one.
  LORD STANLEY: I do not think I can add anything to my reply to a question put by my hon. and gallant friend on this subject on the 2nd instant.†

  RESERVE OFFICERS' SENIORITY RANK.
  COLONEL LEGGE: I beg to ask the Secretary for State for War if he can explain why officers joining a regiment or corps on exchange or from half-pay are allowed to retain their Army seniority, whereas officers recalled from the Reserve are deprived of theirs.
  LORD STANLEY: A Reserve officer has no rank until he is recalled to duty. A regimental officer takes rank in his
  † See preceding volume, page 1033.
  36
  regiment or corps from the date of appointment to it. If his Army rank bears a different date to his regimental rank, he carries his Army rank date, for purposes of precedence and command, only when serving together with officers of other corps.

  RESERVE OFFICERS' PAY.
  COLONEL LEGGE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can say why officers of the Reserve who have received a gratuity are granted full pay on recall to service, while officers in receipt of retired pay only get £150 a year.
  LORD STANLEY: After careful consideration it was decided that there should be no deductions from the full pay of those officers who had received a gratuity, as they represented that the money had been treated as capital, not income, and had not necessarily been invested in the purchase of an annuity.

  ARMY REMOUNTS—PURCHASES IN AUSTRO-HUNGARY
  SIR J. BLUNDELL MAPLE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can say when he anticipates the inquiry which is being held at the War Office as to the purchase of horses in Austro-Hungary will be concluded; and whether he will promise that the whole of the evidence will be published for the information of members of Parliament.
  LORD STANLEY: The inquiry is now concluded, but the Report and the evidence are not yet ready for submission to the Secretary of State for War. As some of the evidence was given on an honourable understanding that it should not be published, the Secretary of State for War cannot promise that the evidence will be published. He will doubtless publish the Report.

  WAR OFFICE LABOURERS' WAGES AT NAVAL PORTS.
  MR. KEARLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether a decision has been arrived at with regard to conceding to the labourers employed by the War Department at the naval

  37
  ports the same advance as that recently given to those under the Admiralty.
  LORD STANLEY: The question is at present under consideration. I will notify the hon. Member when a decision is arrived at.

  NAVAL COURTS-MARTIAL—REVISION OF FINDINGS.
  MR. H. D. GREENE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in cases where a conviction by court-martial is submitted for confirmation to the Judge Advocate of the Fleet, the prisoner is required to undergo any part of the punishment awarded before the validity of the conviction has been adjudged by that legal officer; and whether he can state in any, and, if so, how many cases last year prisoners have undergone the whole or part of a sentence before the conviction on which it was based was quashed or reversed.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER, Belfast, W.): Although all contested courts-martial are referred to the Judge Advocate, sentences awarded by naval courts-martial under the terms of the Naval Discipline Act come into operation at once. They are scrutinised by the local Commander-in-Chief, who would suspend the sentence in the event of any apparent illegality, pending reference to the Admiralty. It might happen that a sentence, subsequently found to have a legal flaw, had begun to take effect, but such instances are very rare. One only has occurred during the last twelve months, and in that case the imprisonment awarded had not been commenced when the finding was quashed.

  GOVERNMENT DOCKYARDS—JOINERS' WAGES.
  MR. E. J. C. MORTON: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty whether he is aware that the rate of wages paid to joiners by private shipbuilding firms who receive contracts from the Admiralty are from 5s. to 10s. above the rate paid by the Admiralty to joiners in Government employ; whether he is aware that joiners have to undergo a
  38
  long apprenticeship and to purchase an expensive kit of tools; and whether, under these circumstances, he will undertake that the rate of wages paid to joiners in Government employ shall be inquired into with a view to placing it on an increased and more fair standard.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Inquiries were recently made as to the rates of wages paid to joiners in private employment and joiners in the dockyards respectively, and it was ascertained that, taking into consideration the rates per hour, the rates of the latter compared favourably with those of the former. The rates of pay prevailing at the time of the inquiry referred to are substantially the same as those paid at the present day. All joiners, whether in the employment of the Government or not, must undergo a long apprenticeship, and must purchase tools for the prosecution of their trade. Under these circumstances it is not considered necessary to inquire further into the rates of pay of joiners in Government employment.

  SUB-LETTING OF ADMIRALTY CONTRACTS.
  MR. BROADHURST: I beg to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether, seeing that the distribution of a contract by a principal contractor amongst other independent employers is a sub-contract, the Government requires to be informed of the conditions under which the work so distributed is done.
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. PRETYMAN, Suffolk, Woodbridge): The Government cannot as a rule be informed of the conditions governing preparatory work which is not done on Admiralty premises. As I informed the hon. Member on Tuesday last, the terms of the Fair Wages Resolution of the House of Commons are embodied in all Admiralty contracts.

  NAVAL VICTUALLING—ALLEGED BRIBERY.
  MR. KEARLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether any decision has been come to by the Admiralty as to the publication of the

  39
  evidence given before the Departmental Committee on Naval Victualling, and whether, in view of the fact that many witnesses testified to a system of bribery prevailing in connection with canteen catering and contracting, any steps are being taken to free the Navy of such practices.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: It is not proposed to publish the evidence given before the Departmental Committee on Naval Victualling. The question with respect to the management of canteens, to which the hon. Member refers, and with respect to which evidence was given before the Committee, is receiving careful consideration at the Admiralty.
  MR. KEARLEY: Is it not the fact that several witnesses made allegations of bribery in connection with this matter?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: Yes, I believe some of the witnesses did suggest it.
  MR. KEARLEY: Then, under the circumstances, ought not the evidence to be published?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: No, Sir. It is not usual to publish the evidence given on departmental inquiries. We had reason to believe that some of the witnesses would not come forward if they had anticipated that their testimony would be made public.
  MR. KEARLEY: Are the Admiralty entitled to receive evidence of this nature?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The Admiralty take the course which is most conducive to obtaining the truth. I should like it to be clearly understood, however, that no allegation of bribery is made against the Admiralty, or against any of its officers or officials in the performance of their duty.
  MR. KEARLEY: I shall take the earliest opportunity of calling the attention of the House to this matter.
  MR. FLAVIN: Can the hon. Member say in what branch of the service bribery does not take place?

  NAVAL ORDNANCE CORPS.
  MR. KEARLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether any appointments of chief and warrant officers to positions in the Naval Ordnance Corps have yet been made in accordance with the undertaking repeatedly given that such appointments as opportunity offered should be secured to them.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The report of the Committee which recently considered the organisation of the Naval Ordnance Store Department made recommendations with respect to the employment of chief and warrant officers. These recommendations, together with others made by the Committee, are now under the consideration of the Admiralty, but no actual decision has yet been arrived at.

  INSTRUCTION IN NAVAL GUNNERY.
  MR. KEARLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the results of shooting from ship's guns on board H.M.S. "Terrible," demonstrating that, where special attention is given by officers and men to gun, training and practice, the efficiency of a ship can be increased by at least 30 per cent., the Admiralty intend that Captain Scott's method of training men to shoot shall be adopted on every ship in His Majesty's Fleet.
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: The Admiralty is fully alive to the necessity of training men to shoot, and all possible means are being employed to obtain the highest degree of efficiency. Captain Scott's method of training is being followed, and a large number of sets of his aiming apparatus have been ordered, in addition to those already supplied to ships in commission.

  INDIA—INCOME TAX COLLECTION.
  MR. EMMOTT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he can state approximately the amount of income tax collected in India from incomes between Rs. 500 and Rs. 1,000; and whether he has considered the advisability of raising the limit of income liable to income tax to Rs. 1,000 as soon as the finances of India permit.
  *LORD G. HAMILTON: The amount of income tax collected in India from incomes between Rs. 500 and Rs. 1,000 is approximately 36 lacs out of a total of 193 lacs. As at present advised I am not disposed to raise the existing exemptions. Any changes in this or any other form of taxation must be governed by the future condition of Indian finance.

  INDIAN BUDGET.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he can fix the date for the introduction of the Indian Budget, and whether the Report of the Famine Commission will be printed and distributed previously to the discussion of the Budget.
  *LORD G. HAMILTON: The Budget will be taken on the day fixed for the Committee stage of the Appropriation Bill. The Report of the Famine Commission has, within the last few days, been received officially from India, together with the comments of the Indian Government and a statement of the action which they propose to take upon it. I cannot undertake to present these Papers to Parliament until I have had time to consider them in council, and as the questions raised are complex and most important, I shall not be able to come to a conclusion upon them for some little time.

  INDIAN COTTON CULTIVATION.
  MR. HARWOOD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if his attention has been called to the deterioration of the staple of Indian cotton and to the condition in which it is brought to market, and if the Government can do more than is now being done to bring about an improvement in this particular by methods similar to those which have been so successful in Egypt.
  *LORD G. HAMILTON: I stated in answer to a question in this House on the 1st July† that I was aware that the poor quality and condition of Indian cotton had been the subject of a good deal of attention in India, and that efforts
  † See Debates, Fourth Series, Vol. xcvi., page 419.
  42
  were being made by the Indian Agricultural Departments to obtain selected seed, and to induce the cultivators to grow improved varieties. I am in communication with the Government of India on the subject.

  FOX-HUNTING INCIDENT AT CAIRO.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the fact that the officer commanding the 11th Hussars, with six other officers and one private of the 11th Hussars and other regiments of the British garrison at Cairo, while foxhunting at five o'clock on Sunday morning, the 21st July, in a walled-in garden, in the absence of the owner and without his leave, were assaulted and beaten with sticks by the owner's servants and the native guards in charge of the place; whether the officers were authorised by the general in command of the Cairo garrison to prosecute these servants for obeying their orders and defending the property; whether he is aware that, while the officers have apologised to the owner, the servants and guards have been sentenced to long terms of imprisonment for obeying their orders, and whether the Government propose to use their influence with the Egyptian Government to obtain remission of these sentences; and whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the correspondence connected with this case.
  The following question on the same subject also appeared on the Paper:—
  MR. TAYLOR: To ask the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the case in which certain servants in the employ of Mr. W. S. Blunt, upon his enclosed stud farm near Cairo, have recently been condemned to terms of imprisonment of six, four, and three months each for defending their employer's property from invasion and damage by certain officers in His Majesty's service; whether, in order to prevent the prejudice of native opinion against the administration of justice in Egypt, His Majesty's Government will take steps to secure these men's release.
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Viscount CRANBORNE, Rochester): As this is a Foreign Office matter, perhaps I may be allowed to answer the question. The information which we have received is to the following effect:—The officer commanding the 11th Hussars and others were out fox-hunting on the 21st July. A fox was found on the outskirts of Mr. Blunt's property, and was followed by the pack into an enclosure. The Master and whips galloped to a hole in the wall in order to get to the hounds and prevent any damage being done, when Mr. Blunt's stud manager shouted to them to stop, and struck at them with his stick. The other officers remained outside, but, hearing shouting inside, went back and entered the enclosure. Two of the officers who had first entered were surrounded by a number of the men of the place, mobbed, struck, their hats knocked off, and their horses beaten. The officer in command did his best to restore order, and called on the officers to fall back, and ordered them not to strike their assailants. The assailants were prosecuted for assault in the ordinary courts of law before the native courts, and the stud manager was sentenced to six months' imprisonment and two other defendants to four and three months respectively. It is understood that the defendants will appeal. The officers have expressed their regret to Mr. Blunt for the trespass, but it appears that practically no damage has been done to his property. There seems no reason to doubt that a serious assault has been committed, which no orders from the owner can justify; but the general officer commanding the British troops in Egypt will be requested to prevent the occurrence of incidents of this nature. The decision of any question as to the remission of sentences is for the Court of Appeal and the Egyptian authorities. Correspondence will be laid as soon as complete reports have been received.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: May I further ask the noble Lord whether the officers were in mufti; whether the servants who drove them out were unable to speak a word of English; whether the men had been employed by the owner of the property for the special purpose of keeping out marauders; whether, under
  44
  these circumstances, the Government will use their influence with the Egyptian authorities to have the sentence revised; whether in Major Rycroft's official report to headquarters in Cairo he does not say—
  "We drew along the edge of the desert, and about 5 a.m., right outside the wall enclosing Mr. Blunt's property, the hounds jumped over the wall and immediately gob on the line of a fox";
  and whether that is not inconsistent with the account which the noble Lord has given.
  *SIR CHARLES CAYZER: Is the noble Lord not aware that Major Rycroft possesses a perfect knowledge of the Arabic language, and owing to this and the great forbearance of himself and his officers prevented a serious occurrence?
  *VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: As the hon. Member for Waterford is aware, it is not my decision that supplementary questions should not be answered, but the decision of the House. However, in deference to the position which the hon. Member occupies in the House, I do not object to say one word in answer to him. The officers were in mufti, and it is true that Major Rycroft has a thorough knowledge of Arabic, so it was not necessary that the natives should know English. But I do not think the hon. Member quoted my answer quite correctly. I said the fox was found in the outskirts of Mr. Blunt's property. With regard to the line the British Government should take, we shall, of course, await a full report of the circumstances before we go into the matter.
  MR. TAYLOR: May I ask whether, pending an appeal, the men, if in prison, will be released?
  *VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: I must have notice of that question.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Do the military regulations allow officers of the British Army to go fox-hunting and poaching on Sunday?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! Such a question is obviously out of order, and it has nothing to do with the question on the Paper.

  PERSIA—CUSTOMS TARIFF.
  SIR EDWARD SASSOON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any information has reached the foreign Office of a proposed modification in the Customs tariff of Persia; if so, whether due notice will be given to British merchants previous to the introduction of a radical change, and whether he would state the nature of the scheme.
  *VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: The answer to the first question of my hon. friend is in the affirmative. The question of whether any notice is required or is practicable will receive consideration. I am not yet in a position to make any further statement on the subject.

  POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANK.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state if any provision is made, or whether any reserve would be immediately available, if, owing to the reduction of interest or other causes, the withdrawals from the Post Office Savings Bank should exceed the new deposits.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH, Bristol, W.): The hon. Member asks me what would be done in the event of the falling off of Savings Bank deposits, which for a long time have been continually increasing. I see no reason to anticipate any such difficulty as he suggests.

  COMMISSION ON COAL SUPPLY.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can now state the reference to, and the composition of, the Commission on Coal.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: No, Sir; I am not yet able to do this.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: When is the right hon. Gentleman likely to be in a position to give the information?
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: Not in the course of the present session.

  COAL DUTY REMISSIONS.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state approximately the sum accrued in the hands of the Customs at the end of July in respect of coal duty to be returned under the remission agreed to during the passage of the Finance Bill through the House of Commons; and, in view of the inconvenience and loss caused to exporters by the withdrawal of this capital from their business, will he expedite its repayment.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I am afraid I have not sufficient data available to enable me to give the figures asked for. Every effort is being made to expedite the settlement of the numerous questions arising out of the contracts submitted, and directly each settlement is made steps are taken with a view to the return of the duty which has been remitted.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: Will the amount be less than a quarter of a million?
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I cannot say.
  MR. RENWICK: Will interest be paid on it?
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I think not.

  SS. "NUMIDIAN."
  MR. NANNETTI: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he has yet received a reply as to whether William Morrison, fireman on the steamship "Numidian," was arrested on 23rd May, in Montreal, for being absent without leave, and as to whether the master left him in prison and sailed for Liverpool without paying him off, in accordance with Sections 187 and 188 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894; and, if so, can he state what steps, if any, he has taken to see that this man is paid and compensated for his loss of time; and will he get a report of the case from the superintendent of the Mercantile Marine Office and magistrate's clerk at Montreal.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR, Leeds, Central): No, Sir. A communication

  47
  on the subject was addressed to the shipping master at Montreal on the 24th July, but no reply has yet been received.
  MR. NANNETTI: When shall I repeat the question?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: As soon as I get a reply I will communicate with the hon. Member.

  RAILWAY RATES.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that British and Irish railways carry foreign goods at from one-half to two-thirds less than the charge for home goods, and that their charges for coal are throe times those of the German and Belgian railways; whether he will advise the appointment of a Departmental Committee during the recess to inquire into and report upon those matters in connection with transport.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No, Sir. I am not aware that the facts are as stated by the hon. Member, and I do not propose to institute such a general inquiry as that suggested by the question. If any specific instance of undue preference is brought to my notice, I will inquire into it.
  MR. FIELD: I have forwarded several specific complaints to the right hon. Gentleman already.

  FACTORY AND WORKSHOP ACT AMENDMENT AND CONSOLIDATION BILL.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether, having regard to the changes in the law made in the Grand Committee upon the Factory and Workshop Act Amendment and Consolidation Bill, he will consider the advisability of separating the consolidating from the amending clauses, or in some way showing the new proposals in the old law.
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. RITCHIE, Croydon): A copy of the Consolidation Bill with notes to explain
  48
  the Amendments, and also a Memorandum showing how each clause in the amending Bill was embodied in the consolidation Bill, were circulated to members of the Grand Committee; and copies of the Memorandum were deposited in the Vote Office for the use of members. I think this is all that can be done—it would be quite impossible to separate the clauses.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Is my right hon. friend aware that the new provisions reducing overtime are likely to seriously affect the wage-earning powers of workers in Sheffield?
  *MR. RITCHIE: With regard to that, I have received from a very large number of bodies representations against the proposals embodied in the Bill. It is not possible for me to state what course the Government propose to take until the Bill comes on.
  MR. NANNETTI: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in the opinion of trade unionists of all classes overtime is most injurious to, and not required by, the working classes?
  *MR. RITCHIE: I do not know that I can quite go to that length, but still I have had representations from working men asking me to allow the matter to remain as it stands in the Bill.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that we work overtime here?

  CRIMINAL LUNATICS—INEBRIATE REFORMATORIES.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether inmates of inebriate reformatories who become insane and are transferred to local asylums have their maintenance in such asylums paid for by the Government.
  *MR. RITCHIE: Their maintenance is paid for by the Government so long as they remain criminal lunatics; if, however, an inmate of an inebriate reformatory who is removed to an asylum does not within a short period after the removal show such signs of recovery of

  49
  sanity as render it probable that he can properly be returned to reformatory treatment, he is usually discharged from the class of inebriates, and thereupon becomes and is treated as a pauper lunatic.

  PENRHYN QUARRY DISPUTE—MILITARY AID TO THE CIVIL POWER—CONDUCT OF TROOPS, ETC.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state who was the magistrate who signed the requisition asking that troops be sent to Bethesda, and, seeing that there has not been anything in the behaviour of the people at Bethesda during the past week to render necessary the presence of the soldiers, whether he intends to order their immediate recall.
  *MR. RITCHIE: I understand that the magistrate who signed the requisition was the Chairman of the Standing Joint Committee for Carnarvonshire. I am glad to be able to say that I am informed that the state of things at Bethesda is such as will, in the opinion of the local authorities, justify the withdrawal of the bulk of the troops on the 10th instant, but I must remind the hon. Member that the responsibility for the preservation of order in the district rests with the local authorities, with whom I have no power or intention of interfering.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Was the magistrate resident in the district? What is his name?
  *MR. RITCHIE: I am afraid I cannot give that. Probably the hon. Member knows it better than I do.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: Have the local authorities held any inquiry?
  *MR. RITCHIE: The responsibility rests with them, and I am informed that they felt justified in taking this step.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that on the evening of Saturday, 3rd August, some of the soldiers now stationed at Bethesda for the maintenance of the peace created alarm among the inhabitants of the place by shouting
  50
  and fighting in the public street opposite the Douglas Arms Hotel, and what action he proposes taking to punish the offenders.
  LORD STANLEY: I have no information to the effect suggested.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether the cost of catering the troops sent to Bangor in anticipation of disturbances at Bethesda is an Imperial or a local charge, and by whom were the rates for catering agreed upon with the local tradesman.
  LORD STANLEY: The incidence of the cost in this and similar cases is under consideration.
  *MR. WILLIAM JONES: Can the noble Lord state the exact proportition of the Imperial and the local charge?
  LORD STANLEY: The whole question is under consideration, and if I gave an answer now it might be misleading.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: Will regard be had to the decision in the Aberdare case?
  LORD STANLEY: All the facts will be considered.

  CARNARVONSHIRE COUNTY COUNCIL—CONSTITUTION OF SUBCOMMITTEE.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that the sub-committee of the joint committee of the Carnarvonshire County Council, to whom the chief constable appealed for endorsement of his request that soldiers should be sent to Bethesda, are composed of persons connected with the slate trade; and whether he proposes doing anything to amend the law so as to prevent in future interested parties from acting as magistrates in the calling out of the military during a labour dispute.
  *MR. RITCHIE: I have no information on the point referred to in the first paragraph. I find no reason in the facts at present before me for thinking that any amendment of the law is required.

  LIVERPOOL WATER MAINS—COMPENSATION CLAIMS.
  COLONEL WALKER: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that the Liverpool Corporation refuse to entertain a claim for compensation for damage caused on a farm at Huyton by the bursting of a water main belonging to them on the ground that they are protected by their statutory powers from any liability in a case of the kind; and whether he will undertake to introduce legislation to provide for the recovery of compensation for damage caused in cases of this kind.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG, Bristol, S.): I understand that the corporation consider that they are not liable in the case referred to in the question, unless it can be shown that they have been guilty of negligence in the construction or use of the waterworks. Without admitting their liability, however, they have offered as compensation a sum of £15, at which amount the damage has been estimated. I could not undertake to introduce legislation as suggested by my hon. and gallant friend.

  PTOMAINE POISONING.
  MR. CHANNING: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will direct an inquiry into the circumstances attending the ptomaine poisoning of two ladies by decomposed cream; and whether he will take prompt steps to check the improper use of preservatives to enable articles of food to be disposed of to customers when in a state of decomposition dangerous to health.
  MR. WALTER LONG: I have seen a newspaper paragraph as to the inquest in the case mentioned in the question, and I will endeavour to obtain a report from the medical officer of health of the borough on the subject I expect to receive in a few days the Report of the Departmental Committee on Food Preservatives, and I hope then to be in a better position to judge how dangerous decomposition in food may be satisfactorily prevented.

  VACCINATION AT LEEDS—CASE OF EMILY MAUD CHILD.
  MR. CORRIE GRANT: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will now lay upon the Table of the House the report made to his Board by the late Dr. Ballard, one of the inspectors of the Local Government Board, respecting the results of vaccination in the case of Emily Maud Child at Leeds, to which reference is made in the Report of the Royal Commission on Vaccination, in paragraph 4 (27) of that Report.
  MR. WALTER LONG: It would be contrary to the practice of the Local Government Board to give publicity to the reports made by their inspectors in cases such as that referred to by the hon. Member. These reports are always regarded as confidential. Full particulars of this case will be found in Appendix IX. to the Final Report of the Royal Commission on Vaccination, and in the evidence given before the Commission.
  MR. CORRIE GRANT: Was not the Report made to the Royal Commission on Vaccination?
  MR. WALTER LONG: No; I gather it was made to the Local Government Board.

  COMMUNICABILITY OF TUBERCULOSIS.
  MR. CAREW: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in view of the statement of Professor Virchow, agreeing with Dr. Koch, that human and cattle tuberculosis are different, the Government will grant a sufficient amount to enable exhaustive scientific experiments to determine upon the communicability of tuberculosis from animals to man, and also appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into and report upon the subject.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The making of experiments for the purpose referred to is a matter to be considered in connection with the question of the appointment of a Royal Commission. This question is receiving the attention of the Government, but, as I stated on Tuesday, they have not at present arrived at a decision with regard to it.

  ORGANISATION OF SECONDARY EDUCATION.
  MR. EVELYN CECIL: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether the proposed organisation of secondary education will include the efficient control and regulation of pupil teacher centres by the new education authority; and whether he will state by what authority school boards are permitted by the Board of Education to provide secondary education for pupil teachers employed in their own schools, and more particularly for pupil teachers employed in schools conducted by other bodies.
  THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir J. GORST, Cambridge University): I cannot pledge the Government to the contents of the Education Bill of next year. I understand the sections of the Education Act of 1870 relied on by school boards are 19 and 35.

  SCIENCE AND ART EXPENDITURE.
  MR. JEFFREYS: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether, seeing that the total annual expenditure on science and art amounts to about 360,000, he can state what proportion the science and art grants for agriculture bear to the whole grants.
  SIR J. GORST: There was paid for the year 1899–1900 in respect of attendances and results of the science examinations, under the heading "Principles of Agriculture," £407. But this does not at all represent the total grants for instruction bearing on agriculture, as it does not include grants for instruction in such subjects as botany, biology, and chemistry, nor the grants given on these and kindred subjects in evening schools and in day schools of science.

  HOLYWELL SCHOOLS.
  MR. FENWICK: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he can state what steps, if any, are being taken to re-open the Holywell schools; and whether it is
  54
  the intention of the Department to grant the request of the ratepayers to be allowed to establish a school board for the management of said schools.
  SIR J. GORST: A school board for Holywell alone is about to be set up.

  VICTORIA AND ALBERT MUSEUM.
  MR. MASSEY-MAINWARING: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he can state when the first contract for the foundations of the Victoria and Albert Museum runs out, what amount of money will have been spent under this contract, and what amount remains unspent, and when will the foundations be completed; has any contract been concluded for the basement of the Museum; have any tenders been invited for the main building; and, if not, what is the cause of delay in their issue; are the plans complete; have any modifications or alterations been made in them to diminish the extent of the Museum; and have delays been caused through certain special materials being ordered in not sufficient time for the building, the foundation stone of which was laid by Her late Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria more than two years ago.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's): The foundations are completed, and the contract was for £33,410. A second contract has been made for building to the ground-floor level, and this work is now being proceeded with. As soon as this is finished tenders will at once be invited for the superstructure, the plans being now practically ready. No alterations that I am aware of have been made which would reduce the size of the museum, and no delays of importance have occurred, the work being completed within the allotted time. The contract for the foundations was not entered into until some time after the laying of the memorial stone, that ceremony having taken place in advance to suit Her late Majesty's arrangements.

  WIDENING OF PICCADILLY.
  MR. MALCOLM: I beg to ask the First Commissioner

  55
  of Works whether he would consent to delay the widening of Piccadilly until the effect upon traffic of the proposed continuation of the Mall into Cockspur Street has been ascertained.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: May I suggest that the work should be suspended until next year, that the House may have an opportunity for considering the proposal?
  MR. AKERS DOUGLAS: I will consider that, but I may point out that the scheme was before the House last year. I do not think the alternative suggested by my hon. friend would have any appreciable effect, seeing that no heavy traffic or omnibuses can use the route; but the point shall be considered.
  MR. JAMES LOWTHER: Was not the scheme very generally condemned last year?
  MR. AKERS DOUGLAS: I am not aware of that, and I venture to think that the scheme can be defended, and that if the public knew exactly what is intended objections would be easily answered.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the scheme is generally condemned in Ireland?

  POSTMEN'S TUNICS.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he is aware that certain postmasters interpret Rule 3 (section b) in the Town Postmen's Rate Book to mean that a postman should wear his coat buttoned from neck to waist (however hot the weather may be); and whether, seeing that Mr. Arnold Morley, when Postmaster General, held that the top button only was intended to be fastened, this interpretation will be acted upon by the Postmasters throughout Great Britain and Ireland.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.): The Postmaster General is not aware that postmasters
  56
  interpret the rule in question to mean that a postman must wear his coat buttoned from neck to waist. The men should, however, even in hot weather, have the top button of their coats buttoned, as they would otherwise present a slovenly appearance. No special instructions on the subject seem necessary.
  MR. FLAVIN: How many members of this House keep their top button fastened?

  EXAMINATIONS FOR MALE SORTERS
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, with reference to the examinations for male sorters held in London, can he state when the last examination was held, what number of candidates presented themselves, and how many of those came from Ireland, whether he is aware of the inconvenience and cost to Irish competitors at these examinations in having to travel in numerous cases over 500 miles, and whether, seeing that similar examinations were held at times at Inverness, Stornoway, and other places for the convenience of Scotch competitors, he will arrange that examinations will in future be held in Dublin.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The last examination for the situation of male sorters in London was held on the 30th May, 1901. On this occasion 257 candidates presented themselves, of whom 65 are believed to have come from Ireland. Eighty-five were successful, including 23 of the Irish candidates. Three of these competitions have been held each year during the past four years, and the average number of vacancies has been 172 per annum. They are held in London only, and Irish candidates who elect to compete for such appointments are under no disadvantage which is not shared by all others who do not reside in London; but having regard to the terms of service, and particularly to the early and late hours of attendance, the Civil Service Commissioners have not considered it advisable to give facilities which would tend to attract to these competitions persons whose homes are not in

  57
  London. No competitions for these or any other appointments are now held in Stornoway, and though important competitions for other posts have sometimes hitherto been held at Inverness, they are held also at Galway and Limerick.

  IRISH LANGUAGE IN IRISH SCHOOLS.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether fees are paid for Irish, when taught as an extra subject, on the average daily attendance of school or classes presented, or whether they are paid at a fixed rate per pupil on the number of children actually presented, and, if not, will he explain the principles which regulate payment, and the amounts which may be expected for such work.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM, Dover): This question, I assume, turns on the meaning of the expression bona fide, as applied to the attendance of pupils, in Rule 55. The Commissioners have decided that bona fide attendances mean that the child is a pupil of a national school, has made at least one hundred attendances in each annual period, and has attended the course of Irish, or other extra subject, for at least 75 per cent. of the meetings. The fee payable under these conditions for Irish is 10s. per pupil.

  IRISH TEACHERS AND THE RESIDUAL GRANT.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state in how many instances national teachers have been paid their share of the balance of residual grant, whether he is aware that the teachers of Ireland have stated definitely that they have not got this money, and that Archbishop Walsh has stated that the money is due, and whether he will now institute an inquiry to ascertain what became of the money.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The payment of the balance of the residual grant for the calendar year ended 31st December, 1900, to each teacher in the service on the 31st March, 1901, was made with
  58
  the consolidated income remitted in April. The payment of the equivalent of the residual grant accruing in the current year will be paid at the end of the present financial year. As already stated, I have called for a Return showing the expenditure of the school grant year by year since 1892–3, under the four clauses of the 4th Schedule to the Act of 1892 (including residual grant). This Return, which will shortly be laid on the Table, will show whether the money has been allocated and paid away in the prescribed manner. I am not prepared to institute a further inquiry.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: When does the right hon. Gentleman expect to get the Return?
  MR. WYNDHAM: In a day or two.

  LONDONDERRY AND THE EDUCATION ACT.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that the Londonderry District Council No. 2 adopted the Compulsory Clauses of the Education Act, and the local authorities appointed their portion of the school attendance committee over four months ago, and, seeing that the Commissioners of National Education have not yet appointed their portion of this committee, can he state the cause of the delay, and will steps be taken to have the Act put into force in the district referred to.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Commissioners appointed five persons to act on the school attendance committee of this district on the 16th July, and the appointments were at once notified to all parties concerned. The enforcement of the Act rests with the local authority.

  IRISH COMMISSION OF EDUCATION—COMPLAINT OF BOOKBINDERS' SOCIETY.
  MR. NANNETTI: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he has yet received the report from the Commissioners of Education in Ireland as to the complaints sent by him to them from the Bookbinders' Society; and, if so, what steps he purposes to take to meet the claims of these men.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The question of the application of the Fair Wages Resolution to the dealings of the Commissioners with the firm of Messrs. Blackie and Son was considered by the Commissioners at their meeting on Tuesday last, when it was decided that the resolution did not, in their opinion, apply, there being no direct contract with that firm. The Commissioners add that they are assured by the firm that the charges brought against them by the Bookbinders' Society is not warranted by the facts.
  MR. NANNETTI: Is it not recognised in all Government work that the Fair Wages Resolution must be acted upon? Seeing that these people are paid Government money, do they not come under the rule?
  MR. WYNDHAM: That is just the point. The Commissioners say they maintain the resolution in direct contracts, but in this case they have no contract with, and consequently no control over, the firm concerned. The resolution does not, therefore, apply.
  MR. NANNETTI: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that on several previous occasions the Commissioners have said that the firm did not pay fair wages?
  MR. WYNDHAM: No; the Commissioners have accepted the statement of the firm that they do not break the Fair Wages Resolution.
  MR. FLAVIN and Mr. NANNETTIboth rose to put further questions.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The question on the Paper has been fully answered.
  MR. FLAVIN: On the point of order, I have, Sir, a question arising directly out of the answer. Will you let me put it?
  *MR. SPEAKER: No. Any further question must be given notice of in the ordinary way.

  IRISH BOARD OF EDUCATION—BOOK DEPARTMENT.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord
  60
  Lieutenant of Ireland, with respect to the memorandum issued on 12th July by the Board of National Education, signed by eleven Commissioners, stating that the book department had now passed successfully through the crisis, and that the supplies were being sent regularly as ordered, and that there was now no arrear in that branch, will he state upon whose information the eleven Commissioners based their statement.
  MR. WYNDHAM: In the memorandum referred to, the Commissioners embodied the substance of reports on the state of the book department supplied by their responsible officers. They have no reason to doubt the correctness of these reports, but, at the same time, they are quite prepared to investigate statements tending to impugn their accuracy if they are supplied with facts and figures enabling them to do so.
  MR. JAMES O'CONNOR: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Archbishop Walsh absolutely contradicts the statement?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am quite aware that there is a contradiction, and the Commissioners have promised to investigate the matter if supplied with facts and figures.

  SALLYBANK SCHOOL TEACHER'S SALARY.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that in the Return furnished of the salary of the principal teacher, Sally-bank, twelve months equivalent grant for results and Customs and Excise grant and one month's consolidated salary which included another month's equivalent for these two items were returned as forming his income for the twelve months ended 31st March, 1901; whether, in view of the basis on which this teacher's salary was calculated, steps will be taken to compensate him for this loss by the recent alteration in the mode of payment; and whether the Return will be so amended as to give the amounts received for the residual grant and the balance of the residual grant separately for each of the four years dealt with.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have received and will forward to the hon. member a detailed Return showing the actual payments made to this teacher for each quarter in the four years mentioned, under the various heads. It appears that the total payments were slightly in excess of those shown in the previous Return. The average for the three years ended March, 1900, is not, however, affected. The teacher suffered no loss by the recent alteration in the mode of payment.

  BOARD OF EDUCATION—ARCHBISHOP WALSH'S RESIGNATION.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether a second memorandum has been issued by the Board of National Education in Ireland in reference to the recent resignation of the most rev. Dr. Walsh, Archbishop of Dublin, and whether he will lay upon the Table a copy of this second memorandum, together with the copies of the minutes of all further proceedings of the Board with reference to this matter and the documents mentioned therein.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have no knowledge of a second memorandum. In reply to a telegram which I despatched to the National Board embodying the terms of the hon. Member's question, I have received a reply to the effect that "the question cannot be answered till after the next ordinary meeting of the Board on the 13th instant." Perhaps the hon. Member will put down his question for Thursday, the 15th instant.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Of course I will put the question again, but I cannot understand why an answer could not be given. Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire if he can put on the Table copies of the recent Minutes dealing with this matter?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I will see what can be done. I have no power myself to give the undertaking.
  MR. JOHN REDMOND: Will the right hon. Gentleman communicate with the Board on the subject?
  MR. WYNDHAM: As far as I am concerned I have no objection, but the meetings of the Board are confidential.

  WHITE ESTATE, NEAR BANTRY.
  MR. GILHOOLYI beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether valuers have visited the White Estate, near Bantry, with a view to its sale to the tenants under the 40th Section of the Land Purchase Act, 1896; and whether he can state approximately when the sale is to take place.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The request from the Land Judge was received by the Land Commission on 4th July. It is not possible to state, even approximately, when the Land Commissioners will make their report to the Land Judge. There will be no unnecessary delay in reporting upon the estate, which is a large one.

  LICENSING ACT PROSECUTION AT GALWAY.
  MR. WILLIAM JOHNSTON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to the proceedings at the Galway Petty Sessions on 15th July last, when Mrs. Giblin, of Prospect Hill, Galway, was charged with a breach of the Licensing Acts, and when, on the case being called, Mr. J. C. Gardner left the bench and the chair was taken by Mr. F. Laurence O'Comyn; if he is aware that the husband of the publican, who is a Royal Irish Constabulary pensioner, swore that he placed a man named Comber to prevent any but bona fide travellers from entering, and that three of the men who were found on the premises swore that Comber invited them to go in, and that the magistrate dismissed the case against the publican, but fined the persons found on the premises; and that Mr. M. A. Lynch left the bench expressing his disapproval of the proceedings; and is he aware that Mr. Gardner, the resident magistrate, is a tenant of Mrs. Giblin, and can he explain why the superior officer of the Constabulary did not appear to prosecute in such a case but left it to a sergeant, and what action the Government intend to take in the case.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This case was heard by five magistrates. The resident magistrate had previously left the bench, though for what reason I am unable to say, as he is at present on leave of absence. He is not, I am informed, a tenant of Mrs. Giblin. I have no power to interfere with the magistrates in the exercise of their judgment on questions of fact. Mr. Lynch left the bench after the decision was announced, but the police are not aware that he expressed disapproval of the proceedings. The case was not of sufficient importance to justify the attendance of the district inspector. The Government cannot take any further action in the matter.
  *MR. MORRIS: Is it not a fact that on the day on which this publican was charged with a breach of the Licensing Acts there had been a very large excursion of visitors to Galway from all parts of Ireland, making it extremely difficult, if not impossible, for him to detect one or two local people amid the crowd of bona fide travellers whom he was bound by law to serve?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I was not aware of that.

  KILLCLOONEY ESTATE, GALWAY.
  MR. ROCHE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will make a further statement in reference to the sale to the Killclooney tenants.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have given all the facts in connection with this estate. The whole matter was considered yesterday at a meeting of the Congested Districts Board, and it was unanimously resolved to make certain representations to the Land Commission. The hon. member will, I feel sure, agree that it would be improper to make a further statement until the resolution has been received and considered by the body to whom it has been addressed.

  PROPOSED PATHOLOGICAL LABORATORY IN DUBLIN.
  MR. WILLIAM JOHNSTON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, having
  64
  regard to his reply to the deputation which waited on him in Dublin concerning a proposal to establish a pathological laboratory devoted to research in connection with insanity for the asylums of the country, he will introduce a clause into the Local Government (Ireland) Amendment Bill empowering county councils to contribute towards the support of such a central laboratory for the study of mental pathology.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Such a clause could not be inserted in the Local Government Act Amending Bill, but it would be germane to the Lunacy Bill now before the House. I earnestly hope to be able to introduce an Amendment of this character in the latter Bill.

  SPEARSTOWN NATIONAL SCHOOL.
  MR. JORDAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the case of the Spearstown National School, county Donegal, which was on the Commissioners' roll for thirty-two years, during which time it was under one teacher, who had a clean record; and, seeing that it has now been struck off the roll, can he state under what rule the Commissioners acted in doing so; is he aware that the motion to strike this school off the roll was carried by a majority of two votes only; that this school still has such an average attendance as to justify a claim for a grant from the National Board; and that the teacher would have been entitled to full pension in about eighteen months, but that the action of the commissioners has imperilled his whole pension, or at least will diminish his pension; whether the action of the Board is in accordance with the principles of the national system of education; and whether steps will be taken to rectify this state of matters.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This school has, for many years, received grants from the National Board. The attendance, however, fell from forty-five in 1895 to thirteen in 1901. At their meeting on the 18th June, the Board decided unanimously to give aid to one only of the two schools in this locality. I do not, however,

  65
  think it would be proper to give the voting of the Commissioners on the occasion when the grants were withdrawn from the Spearstown school. They have power under Rules 94 and 102 of the Code to discontinue aid to a national school. Schools with an average attendance of even less than thirteen are aided by the Board in exceptional circumstances, but the granting of such aid is discretionary with the Board. The pension of the teacher is not imperilled by the action of the Board; his retiring allowance will be somewhat less now than it would be if he did not retire until he reached the age of sixty-five. He is at present in his sixty-fourth year. The Government cannot take any action in the matter, as suggested.
  MR. JORDAN: May I be permitted to say that the question has been practically re-written at the Table without consulting me, although I am constantly in the House.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The question in its altered form has been on the Paper several days without objection.

  FISH RATES BETWEEN DINGLE AND DUBLIN.
  MR. THOMAS O'DONNELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Great Southern and Western Railway charge 36s. 6d. per ton for salt mackerel and herrings from Dingle to Dublin, while they take the same merchandise from Dingle to Liverpool, viâ Dublin, for 12s. per ton; and that fishcurers in Dingle who want to sell in Dublin consign it to Liverpool, via Dublin, and thence back again to Dublin, for 15s. per ton; and having regard to the effect on the fish trade and the Irish consumer of the rates charged by the Great Southern and Western Railway to all those districts from which there are not competing modes of transit, whether he will cause an inquiry to be made into these rates with a view to uniformity and equality of incidence.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have no information in this matter beyond what is alleged in the question. If, however,
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  a statement is made to the Department of Agriculture by any person aggrieved by the rates, inquiry will be made.

  OMAGH LABOURERS' COTTAGES—INCOME TAX DEMANDS.
  MR. MURNAGHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a demand has been made on the Omagh Rural District Council for payment of income tax on the labourers' cottages situated within the area of its authority, while the council declines to pay the tax because the cottages are not self-supporting, causing outlay instead of bringing income; and, seeing that the object in providing labourers' cottages is charitable and not pecuniary, will he make representation to the proper quarter to have the demand for payment of income tax on labourers' cottages in Ireland withdrawn.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I believe the fact to be as stated in the first paragraph. The question raised in the second paragraph is properly one that should be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Perhaps I may refer to my right hon. friend's reply to a similar question addressed to him on the 12th July of last year.†
  MR. DALY: Is it not the fact that in many cases there is a loss of £3 a year on these cottages to the ratepayers?
  MR. WYNDHAM: The matter is one which must be dealt with by the surveyors of taxes.

  FORESTRY IN IRELAND.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Cork County Council and other public boards in Ireland have adopted resolutions urging the necessity of tree-plantings and pointing out the desirability of empowering county and district councils to acquire waste lands for that purpose; and whether, inasmuch as Irish taxpayers contribute towards tree-planting in Great Britain, he will endeavour to
  † See Debates [Fourth Series], Vol. lxxxv., page 1325.

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  obtain a grant from the Treasury in aid of the object in view.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I replied to similar questions on the 14th and 21st June.† It is unnecessary to approach the Treasury in the matter, as the Department of Agriculture in Ireland is already supplied with funds for the purpose of promoting reafforestation.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Could not Irish Crown rents be utilised for this purpose instead of being spent in England?
  MR. WYNDHAM: That question should be addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

  DUBLIN COUNTY POLLING DISTRICTS.
  MR. MOONEY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the desire of the general body of the electors of the Dalkey and Cabinteely polling districts of the county of Dublin that a revision court should be appointed to sit in that district; whether he is aware that at present persons from that district who have to attend revision sessions are obliged to travel several miles, oftentimes on several successive days, if they wish to secure the franchise; and whether there is any objection, seeing that the town hall is always available for the purpose of a court, to fix that place for the revision of the Dalkey voters' list.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I must refer to the reply given on the 26th ultimo‡ to the similar question of the hon. Member for the St. Patrick Division, to which I have nothing to add, except to repeat that any further representations that may be addressed to the Lord Lieutenant by those locally interested will, of course, be considered.
  MR. CLANCY: What objection can there be to granting this request if the people want the change?
  † See Debates [Fourth Series], Vol. xcv., pages 427 and 1072.
  ‡ See preceding Volume, page 237.
  MR. WYNDHAM: That is a question for the Lord Lieutenant to decide.
  MR. CLANCY: I will bring this matter under the notice of the House the first opportunity I get, in order to show that the object in refusing the request is to keep Nationalist voters off the Register.

  POLICE AND PUBLIC, AT BALLYMOTE.
  MR. O'DOWD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that on the 1st instant the police entered the house of John Gilmartin, Ballymote, county Sligo, arrested him in his house, brought him to the police barracks, and detained him there all night; can he state what their reason was for doing so, whether the police had any warrant, and what steps he proposes to take.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The individual named in the question was arrested on the public street at midnight on the 11th instant for being drunk and disorderly. The police did not enter his house on the occasion; he was not arrested on a warrant, as none was necessary. The case will be magisterially investigated at petty sessions to-day. No action is called for on my part in the matter.

  TARBERT AND KILRUSH STEAMER.
  *MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the inhabitants in and around Glin, in the county of Limerick, are anxious that the subsidised steamer plying between Tarbert and Kilrush should call at their pier, a distance of about six miles from the former place, and that the entire cost for attendance on steamer at said pier (which is free of toll and has been certified safe by the county surveyor) would not exceed £1 a week, a guarantee to which effect would be given; and, having regard to the fact that there is no service at present either by rail or steamboat to Glin, and with a view to the development of the district by communications for tourists, will he take steps to have the subsidised boat call there.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This matter has already engaged my personal consideration.

  69
  I have nothing to add to the letter which I addressed on the 26th June to the hon. Member, except to say that the Government cannot subsidise an extension of the steamer service beyond the existing communication between Tarbert and Kilrush.
  *MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: Why cannot the Government do this, seeing that this is one of the most beautiful spots on the banks of the Shannon?

  IRISH RATING GRIEVANCES.
  MR. SHEEHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, in view of the discontent caused and hardship felt by tenants of holdings and houses rated at £4 per annum and under, owing to the operation of the Local Government Act, which compels them to pay the rates hitherto borne by the landlord, and having regard to the difficulty of efficient collection of rates from a poor class of occupiers, whether he will consider the advisability of introducing a short amending clause into the Local Government (Ireland) Bill now before this House, which would revert to the former practice and cast upon immediate lessors the duty of paying rates upon tenements and holdings rated at £4 and under.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The suggested Amendment would not be germane to the Bill now before the House. Apart from this, however, I would point out that the alteration in the law suggested would be opposed to the principle on which the Local Government Act of 1898 was based, namely, that the burden of the rates should fall on those to whom the electoral power is given.

  LABOURERS' COTTAGES IN LIMERICK.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that on the occasion of the inquiry lately held in the No. 1 District Council of Limerick in regard to the 7th Scheme for the erection of cottages under the Labourers Acts little consideration was given to the labourers' applications, on the grounds that some of the houses of these labourers had not been pronounced
  70
  by the doctors as insanitary; and, seeing that this was caused by the fact that they had been temporarily living in the houses of farmers' herdsmen in which they had no permanent right of occupation, will he take action to have those applications reconsidered.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The inspector's report of the inquiry, which was only held on the 11th July, has not yet been received. Consequently, I am not in a position to say what evidence was adduced, or to anticipate the recommendations of the inspector. But I will communicate with the hon. Member when the report is received.

  COLONEL FRENCH'S COONAGH ESTATE.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is he aware that some time ago preparations were made to sell to the tenants, under the 40th section of the Act of 1896, the property of Colonel French situate at Coonagh, in the north liberties of Limerick City; can he say how far arrangements were carried on, and will he recommend that sale to the tenants be carried out on a price to be fixed by the valuers of the Land Purchase Commissioners.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The estate has been inspected, and the matter is at present under the consideration of two of the Land Commissioners with a view to the preparation of their report under Section 40. The price will be determined by the land judge.

  FARRAR'S BALLYVARRA ESTATE.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is he aware that the estate of Mr. William Dent Farrar, at Ballyvarra, Lisnagry, Limerick, as far back as 1885 or 1886, was offered for sale by the authorities in the land judge's court to the tenants, Mr. F. A. B. Turner being then receiver; can he say how far proceedings for sale were carried and why they were discontinued; and whether a tenant named Patrick Wheland, evicted in May, 1900, and who offered a year's rent in discharge of

  71
  arrears, has since been admitted back to his holding; and will he take steps to expedite the sale of the estate.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The petition for sale of this estate was dismissed by the land judge in July of last year. The land judge has no knowledge of, or control over, any proceedings between the parties subsequent to that date, or of the alleged reinstatement of an evicted tenant.

  TIPPERARY RENT APPEALS.
  MR. LUNDON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether, during the month of July, he received from the No. 2 Tipperary District Council a resolution stating that on account of the way in which rents are fixed of the appeals by landlords to the Chief Commission who raise the rents they called on the Government to pass a Compulsory Land Purchase Bill; and whether he will use his influence early next session to give effect to the above resolution.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This question has been repeatedly answered by me.

  SANITATION AT BANBRIDGE.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Banbridge medical officer of health several times reported to the Banbridge Urban Council that 421 houses in the Western Ward and 134 houses in the Eastern Ward in Banbridge are without back doors, ash pits, water closets, or any sanitary accommodation; and will he state what action the Local Government Board has taken to compel the Banbridge Urban Council to carry out the provisions of the Public Health Act.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The medical officer of health has reported that a large number of houses in the district are without back doors, and that some of these houses require to be dealt with in a radical manner. The Local Government Board has no power to intervene in the matter unless complaint of default is made under Section 15 of the Public Health Act, 1896.

  IRISH LAND COURT VALUERS.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether court land valuers in Ireland are required to pass any examination to test their fitness for valuing land; if not, can he say in what way, and by whom, are their qualifications tested.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The fitness of county court valuers nominated by the Land Commissioners under Section 32 of the Land Act of 1887 is not tested by examinations; but the Commissioners have opportunities of judging the qualifications of all applicants for the position from hearing their evidence in cases that come before the Commissioners on appeal. A Return is now in preparation on the motion of the hon. Member for North Longford setting forth the names and qualifications of the valuers who were employed during the past three years.

  LIFE SENTENCES—PREROGATIVE OF MERCY.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, having regard to the number of cases both in England and Ireland in recent years in which life sentences have been dealt with as if they were for a term of twenty years, and to the fact that convicts under life sentences have been released upon the expiration of fifteen years imprisonment, whether he will advise His Excellency the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland to treat with like clemency prisoners like Finigan and Muldowney, now confined in Mountjoy and Maryborough prisons, each of whom has been confined for about eighteen years.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The exercise of the prerogative of mercy is vested in the Lord Lieutenant, and it would be entirely outside my province to advise him as suggested in the question. Any fresh representations, if they can be urged, in favour of a mitigation of the sentence on the two convicts named should be addressed in the usual way to the Lord Lieutenant.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the first part of my question.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I fancy that in both countries the prerogative is only exercised by the constituted authority.

  FERMANAGH BOUNDARIES—PROTESTANT AND ROMAN CATHOLIC REPRESENTATION ON LOCAL BODIES.
  MR. JORDAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state the numbers of Roman Catholics and Protestants respectively in the county Fermanagh at the last census; has his attention been called to a scheme, dated the 5th July, 1901, framed by the county council of Fermanagh, whereby the Roman Catholics, who, according to the former Census Returns, were in a majority of the population, are, by a rearrangement of local districts and a reduction of representatives, to be placed in a permanent minority in the county council and in the district councils. Will the inquiry into the scheme asked for by the county council be granted by the Local Government Board? If so, will it be conducted by a Roman Catholic or a Protestant inspector; and is there any precedent for such an inquiry under the Local Government Act, 1898.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Roman Catholic population of the county at the recent census was 36,066; the Protestant population was 29,168. The county council has prepared a scheme proposing alterations in the boundaries of local areas with the object of removing inequalities in the electorate and representation, but there is nothing in the scheme to indicate that it would have the effect suggested. The council has been informed that no alterations, even if made, could take effect until January, 1903, and that the further consideration of the matter should be deferred until after the election of councillors in January of next year. I am unable to say whether an inquiry will ultimately be granted; or, if so, what inspector will hold it. Such an inquiry was lately held in Dublin.
  MR. M'GOVERN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this scheme was initiated by a Tory election agent at Belfast?
  [No answer was returned.]

  ENNISKILLEN BOUNDARIES—PROTESTANT AND ROMAN CATHOLIC REPRESENTATION ON LOCAL BODIES.
  MR. JORDAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will state the numbers of Roman Catholics and Protestants respectively in the urban district of Enniskillen; has his attention been directed to a motion before the urban council to frame and submit to the county council a scheme of wards, and an alteration and enlargement of the urban district boundary, whereby Roman Catholics, notwithstanding their numbers, are to be placed in a permanent minority so far as representation to the urban council, the board of guardians, and the county council are concerned; and what action will the Local Government Board take under such circumstances.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Until the detailed Census Returns for the county Fermanagh are published it cannot be stated what are the religious proportions of the population of electoral areas. I am aware it is proposed to alter the area of the urban district, and to divide it into wards, but I cannot say whether the proposal would have the effect alleged. The Local Government Board cannot take action at the present stage, the matter must first be dealt with by the urban and county councils.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Will the right hon. Gentleman take care that no scheme of jerrymandering is started?
  MR. WYNDHAM: No such scheme has come before the Board. If one does, and the allegation is made, the matter is certainly one which shall be considered.

  CROWN QUIT RENTS.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any arrangement will be made to enable the quit rents which are the property of the Crown in Ireland to be available for Irish purposes.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I can add nothing to the several replies I have already given on this subject. I have done my best to explain to the hon. Member that it is impossible to meet his wishes in this matter.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirability of ear-marking the rents for Irish purposes?
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: No, Sir.

  BANTRY BAY FORESHORE.
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether when Lord Ardilaun, as trustee to the Bantry estate, purchased the rights of the Crown to portions of the foreshore of Bantry Bay for a sum of £10, inquiries were made as to the value of said foreshore; and, if they were, will he say of whom; and whether competition was invited.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The Trustees of the Bantry estate advanced a claim to certain parts of the foreshore of Bantry Bay, and, having regard to the difficulty of proving the Crown title, the Board of Trade were advised to accept an offer of £10 for the rights of the Crown, subject to covenants for preserving the rights of the public. It is not usual in cases of this kind, where the title is disputed, to obtain a valuation, or to offer to sell to anyone other than the owner of the adjacent land.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Did not the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor give an undertaking that in future these sales should not take place without due public notice?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am not aware of that.
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the Crown has assigned its right to the foreshore of Bantry Bay between Bluehill and the public road adjacent to the Abbey burial ground to the receiver on the White estate, and, if so, for what consideration.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No, Sir, the Crown has not alienated any part of the foreshore referred to by the hon. Member to the receiver of the White estate. A portion of that foreshore was included in the sale to the trustees of the Bantry estates, but the larger portion still remains the property of the Crown.
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Earl of Kenmare claims a right to the rocks, sand, and seaweed on the foreshore of Bantry Bay between Newtown and Gurteenroe, and can he state whether the Crown has transferred its right to the said foreshore to the Earl of Kenmare, and, if so, for what consideration.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No, Sir, I am not aware that the Earl of Kenmare has made any claim with respect to the foreshore of Bantry Bay between Newtown and Gurteenroe. The Crown has not alienated its rights in the foreshore in question.
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether, in view of the fact that Lord Ardilaun and his co-trustees of the Bantry estate have sub-let the foreshore of Bantry Bay between Reenmeen East and Newtown, and that gravel is sold and carried off the foreshore, he will consider, in the public interest, the advisability of cancelling the arrangement entered into between the Board of Trade and the said trustees in 1898.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The act of selling and removing gravel from the foreshore would not entitle the Board of Trade to cancel the arrangement made by them with the trustees of the Bantry estate in 1898. The Board of Trade have power, however, to prohibit the removal of materials where necessary for the protection of the coast.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Is there no record of the pledge publicly given by the right hon. Gentleman's predecessor on the 18th August, 1894, on this subject?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am not aware of it.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Ought not your subordinates to be aware of it?
  MR. GILHOOLY: Can we see a copy of the agreement, so as to know what rights are reserved?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No, Sir.

  IRISH HARBOUR BOARD REVENUES.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he has received communications from a committee representing the Irish Harbour Board as to the inadequacy of the revenue derived under the existing system of registered tonnage with a certain class of vessels, and whether he will confer with this committee, or a deputation, to devise a remedy.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Yes, Sir, I have received communications to the effect stated in the question, and I have replied that for reasons stated in the Board's letters I do not think any useful purpose would be served by my receiving a deputation on the subject at the present time.
  MR. FIELD: When will the Minute be issued?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I hope the revised instructions will be out in a few days.

  ATHLONE BARRACKS GASWORKS.
  MR. SULLIVAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the military gasworks in Athlone Barracks are used by a private contractor to supply gas to the Midland Great Western Railway Company, although the Athlone Urban Council supply gas for public and private lighting in the town, and have recently expended £4,500 on improvements in the gasworks and mains; whether, seeing that the military gasworks are handed over fully equipped to a contractor to thus compete against the town supply, the military authorities sanction this arrangement.
  LORD STANLEY: The reply to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. In reply to the second paragraph, the contractor is liable for maintenance; the buildings, etc., have been handed over to him by the War Department, and this has been taken into account in fixing the terms of the contract. There have been arrangements of a somewhat similar character sanctioned in connection with the gas supply at other stations. The arrangement in question had been in
  78
  force without complaint for many years before the Athlone gas supply was taken over by the district council.

  IRISH POSTMASTERSHIPS.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether, seeing that five officers holding appointments in English post offices have been appointed to five Irish postmasterships since 1st January, 1900, an equal number of officers holding appointments in Irish offices will be appointed to vacant postmasterships in England or Scotland during the present year, so as to equalise promotion from Irish post offices; and can he state how many applications from Irish offices were received for the respective vacancies, and how many of the applicants were qualified to discharge the duties of postmaster.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Ninety-seven applications for the vacant postmasterships referred to were received from officers of the Department in Ireland. Of the persons applying, forty-six were recommended as competent to fill the vacant posts. Postmasterships are, however, filled by the appointment, irrespective of the locality in which the officer concerned may be serving, of the candidate whose claims and qualifications are considered to render him the most eligible for the vacancy. And in these circumstances the Postmaster General is unable to give any such undertaking as that suggested.

  IRISH MAILS.
  MR. DOOGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he is aware that the English night mail which is due in Cookstown at 9.55 did not arrive in that town till after twelve (noon) on 30th July, 31st July, 1st August, and also on one day in the preceding week; and whether, seeing that these frequent delays, which cause so much inconvenience to the inhabitants of the towns of Cookstown, Coolisland, and Stewartstown, result from the late arrival of the mail steamer at Kingstown, steps will be taken to provide that the

  79
  English night mail will not in future be delayed in transit, and that the steamer will arrive at Kingstown in due time.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The Postmaster General regrets to find that the English mail was late in arrival at Cookstown on the occasions referred to by the hon. Member. In one case the delay was due to the mail packet from Holyhead having been delayed by fog in the Channel, while on the other occasions the delay was due to the amount of passenger traffic on the railways. The London and North-Western Railway Company found it necessary to run the Irish night mail train in two parts, and as the mail packet has to await the arrival at Holyhead of the second part, it could not be despatched until considerably after the appointed time. The London and North Western Company have been urged to take all possible measures for securing punctuality, and representations have also been addressed to the Great Northern of Ireland Railway Company, who were responsible for a considerable part of the delay on two of the occasions.
  MR. CREAN: Does not the ordinary express do the journey in less time than the mail?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I cannot answer that without notice.

  CLONMEL MAILS.
  MR. CONDON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that on five days during the past week the mails which should have reached Clonmel at 10.10 a.m. did not arrive until 2.10 p.m., and whether he will direct that the mails for Clonmel should in future be forwarded from Thurles by the Southern Railway direct, thereby ensuring the certainty of the mails reaching at 10 o'clock a.m.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: It is true that during the nine days from the 26th ultimo to the 3rd instant inclusive the English mails were on five occasions late in arrival at Clonmel, but an arrangement is now in operation for
  80
  forwarding the mails for Clonmel direct from Thurles whenever the day mail train from Dublin is running too late to effect the ordinary connection at Limerick junction. The Postmaster General hopes that by this arrangement a regular arrival at Clonmel will be secured.

  ROYAL DECLARATION BILL.
  COLONEL LONG: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the character of the Royal Declaration Bill, and that at this period of the session many members are paired against each other who would be agreed on this particular Bill, he will consider the advisability of not introducing it in the House of Commons this session.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): If I may judge from reports which I have seen of what passed in another place, from correspondence in the newspapers, and from indications I have observed in this House, the persons for whose relief this Bill is intended do not appear to be satisfied with it. I gather also from a different quarter that objection is taken to the Bill. In these circumstances it is evidently quite impossible for us to deal with this matter at the close of the session.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: What course do the Government propose to take on the First Reading, which, as I understand, comes on mechanically?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I understand there will be no First Reading.

  LORD RUSSELL'S TRIAL.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he can state the amount of fees paid to the law officers of the Crown in connection with the recent prosecution of Earl Russell, and also the whole expense of the trial.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not at present in a position to give the information asked for.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Will the right hon. Gentleman give an

  81
  undertaking that the fees of the law officers of the Crown will be commensurate with the dignity of Parliament, having regard to the fact that these unfortunate gentlemen only divide about £20,000 between thorn annually.

BUSINESS OF TILE HOUSE.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN:: I beg to ask the Leader of the House if he has any information to communicate in regard to public business, and particularly what Votes will be taken to-morrow in the stage of Report of Supply.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think probably the most convenient course will be to put down the classes in their order. If the right hon. Gentleman desires anything to be raised, of course I shall be glad to consider it; but, as at present advised, I shall put down the classes in their order—Class 1, Class 2, and so on.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: If any objection reaches me I will communicate.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: As regards Monday, I propose to take as the first Order the Second Reading of the Royal Titles Bill, which I think ought not to take any length of time, and then we shall proceed with the Report of the Factories Bill and of the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors to Children Bill. On Tuesday we shall take the next stage of the Royal Titles Bill and what remains of the Factories Bill and the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors to Children Bill. On Wednesday the main business will be the Naval and Military Works Bills. On Thursday, if we make reasonable progress with all these matters, I think it may be possible to take the Second Reading of the Appropriation Bill. That is perhaps a sanguine estimate, but it is my hope.
MR. JOHN REDMOND: Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will remember that there are on the Paper three or four Irish Bills—most of them of an uncontentious character. Still, they will require some discussion, and the Belfast Bating Bill will take some time.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I quite appreciate the fact that the hon. Member does
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not want these discussions to be taken late in the evening. I will put them down on Wednesday, and hope we may reach them fairly early.
MR. FLYNN: Will the right hon. Gentleman take a Saturday sitting in order to expedite public business?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: There will, no doubt, be a Saturday sitting next week.
MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Would a meeting on Saturday next interfere with the Blenheim garden party?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Very much.
MR. T. M. HEALY: Will the right hon. Gentleman fix a definite day for the Belfast Bill? I believe ther eare several deputations in London awaiting its coming on.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am anxious to bring it on as soon as I can, but I am hampered by not being able to tell how long will be required for the consideration of the Bills coming down from the Grand Committee.
MR. JOHN REDMONDasked if other business was to be taken after Supply was disposed of.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I think it may be convenient to take one or two small Bills, etc.
MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is that not in contravention of the rule which provides that on days alloted to Supply no other business shall be taken?
MR. JOHN REDMOND: And was not that rule enforced against us in the matter of the Catholic University Bill?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: May I point out that on ordinary days of Supply no opposed business can he taken after twelve o'clock, and under such circumstances no doubt such a rule is desirable and convenient. But now we have reached a period of the session when the twelve o'clock rule is suspended, and we can go on until any hour.

SUPPLY [22ND ALLOTTED DAY].
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

SUPPLY [22ND ALLOTTED DAY].
  CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES, 1901–2.

    CLASS II
    1. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £40,182, be granted to His Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Local Government Board in Ireland."
    SIR THOMAS ESMONDSsaid he had on the Paper a notice of motion with regard to this Vote, but he did not intend to move it, because he thought it would be more convenient to the Committee and his colleagues to take that course, in order that they might have an opportunity of discussing various other matters under this head. It was now more than twelve months since they discussed the administration of the Local Government Act in Ireland, and since that time they had had additional experience of the Act and its administration. One result of that experience had been to confirm the opinion which many of them held, that the Local Government Act was not the great blessing in disguise which it was supposed to be. They had also discovered that the drafting of the Act was not all that it ought to be, and it had proved to be a very complicated and obscure measure. They were now beginning to understand how the Act was to be worked, and they were now realising in how many directions the Act required to be amended. One of his complaints against the Local Government Act was that it entailed too many sacrifices and the spending of too much time on the part of those engaged in administering the Act. He would give the Committee an instance of how the work of the Local Government Act affected the council with which he happened to be connected—namely, the county council of Wexford. It was
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    much better for them to come down to concrete cases, in order to make their views more thoroughly understood. The Local Government Act in the county of Wexford had made an extraordinary demand upon the leisure time of members of that council. Last year in Wexford they had sixteen county council meetings, nineteen finance committee meetings, and seventeen meetings of other committees. That made a total of fifty-two meetings in connection with the county council of Wexford. English members who were responsible for the passing of the Local Government Act for Ireland thought they had done all they ought to do when they had imposed the Act upon Ireland, and they did not think it any part of their business, as the governors of Ireland, to attend in their places now. English members would be astounded to be told that members of the county council had to attend meetings of the council and its committees on fifty-two occasions in the twelve months. He thought they had in this matter a strong grievance, because it was owing to the way in which the Local Government Act was drafted that the county councils were obliged to meet so many times. In future there was a possibility of an increase in the number of meetings of the various county councils and committees, because since last year they had the Technical Instruction Act, which meant the calling of constant meetings of a number of committees for the purpose of carrying out the provisions of that measure. It came to this, that those members of county councils who lived by their own labour and industry in Ireland, were supposed to give up practically half a year to the local administration of the country and they had to do that for nothing at all. In the old days it took the grand juries eight days in the year to carry out the administration, but now that they had this magnificent system of local government they had to attend fifty-two days in the year. After all, the county councils were merely doing the work the grand juries were supposed to do. Now the county councils must be constantly in session. Many members of the county councils were ex officio members who had other public duties to attend to. If they were justices of the peace they were

    85
    bound to attend at the licensing sessions. Taking Ireland all round, the petty sessions met once a fortnight. Some of the county councillors were also district councillors or members of boards of guardians, and they had to attend the meetings of those bodies. The district councils or boards of guardians generally met once or twice a week, and the result was that, practically, gentlemen in Ireland who interested themselves in the administration of the local affairs of the country had to give half a year to the carrying on of the local work. That was an undue demand to make on the time of men who were not rich, and he thought that something ought really to be done towards endeavouring to simplify the administration of local affairs so as to remove this evil, which in his opinion was very great.
    He considered that to some extent the Local Government Board was responsible for a great deal of this waste of time. There was an enormous amount of ridiculous correspondence with the Local Government Board in Dublin, which entailed additional work and necessitated the employment of extra clerks. Some of the letters received from the Local Government Board were extremely amusing. A letter dated 15th April, 1901, to the secretary of the county council of Wexford was as follows—
    "With reference to the entry contained in the minutes of proceedings of the Wexford County Council on the 11th ultimo relative to the payment of poundage fees to collectors, I am directed by the Local Government Board for Ireland to request that they may be furnished with a return as to the state of the collection for the half-year ended September, 1900, on the 22nd October, the 19th November, and the 4th December last."
    There was no such entry in the minutes of the county council; in fact there was no such meeting of the county council held. There was no earthly object in writing that letter. On this point he would like the Chief Secretary to state whether the Local Government Board had the right to ask county councils to furnish copies of the minutes of their proceedings. There was no clause in the Local Government Act authorising the Board to make such a request. This was one of the ways in which the time of the county councils was wasted, and it was also a means of increasing the expense
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    of the local administration. The hon. Member quoted specimens of the correspondence received from the Local Government Board, in order to show that unnecessary demands were made on the time of county councillors. At a recent meeting of the Gorey Union the report of Dr. Flynn, medical inspector of the Local Government Board, was submitted. It contained the following with reference to the Coolgreany district—
    "The medical officer, at the date of my inspection, had ordered medicines a fortnight previously: they had not then arrived. The contractors should execute orders with greater despatch, as inconvenience must arise in a dispensary district if medicines are not forwarded promptly when ordered."
    What was the answer to this? The clerk of the union, who was a competent and experienced man, stated that since the Local Government Board circular of 25th February, 1901, against which the guardians protested at the time, the contractors for medicines treated the guardians' order with contempt, and told them that they had their instructions from the Local Government Board, and that they intended to follow these instructions. The result was that the Local Government Board came down upon the guardians for disregarding one of the circulars of the Board. The hon. Member quoted another passage from the medical inspector's report, which stated that—
    "A scale of fees under Article 23 of the dispensary rules has not been adopted. The guardians should take this matter into their early consideration."
    The answer of the guardians was that this scale of fees had been adopted and approved of by the Local Government Board by letter dated 3rd November, 1899. It was all very well to say that they had a grant-in-aid, and there was no necessity to be so uneasy about small increases of expenditure. They were also told that they ought not to grudge paying something for freedom. It was possible to pay for freedom or anything else a great deal more than it was necessary to pay. Local expenditure had been increased, and amongst the ratepayers from one end of the country to the other there was nothing but grumbling as to the way the public money was spent, and the small result derived from that expenditure. In Wexford the amount of the county expenditure within the standard

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    year was £13,504. That sounded a small figure, but they were dealing with a country where shillings represented what sovereigns did on this side of the water. Last year the county charges amounted to more than £27,757. That was sufficient to show that the local administration had become very expensive. In the standard year the amount spent on asylums was £4,900, and last year it was £14,253. In the matter of asylum expenditure the Irish county councils had absolutely nothing to say except to pay the bill. They had had to pay out the money of the ratepayers like water.
    He now came to the question of salaries. In his own county the salaries amounted to £3,678, or an increase over the standard of £1,200. Surely there must be something wrong there. Again, the standard cost of the preparation of the voters' list was £560; last year it was nearly double—£1,048. The standard law charges amounted to £92; last year they were £516. That might be said to be directly due to a circular sent down by the Local Government Board, under which nearly all the officials in the county who wanted to get increased remuneration or compensation went to law with she county council—from inspectors of explosives down to attendants on lunatics. The result was that the county council had to pay all sorts of legal costs. The auditing of asylum accounts by the Local Government Board auditors was much too expensive. One asylum had been charged £30 for auditing their accounts, and when the committee demurred to the Local Government Board they were served with a sealed order requiring the payment to be made forthwith. No Department deserved more serious attention than that of the auditors of the Local Government Board. They got all sorts of fees and travelling expenses, besides a subvention from the Imperial Treasury. He thought that, when these auditors were subsidised by the Imperial Government, the county councils and district councils and asylum committees ought not to be called upon to pay them fees. Another question of which they had to complain was an Order recently issued by the Local Government Board relative to the employment of nurses in workhouses. One of the rules of that
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    Order was that temporary nurses in the workhouses should be paid such salaries as should be approved of by the Local Government Board. Surely that was a matter with which the guardians could themselves deal. Another rule was that the boards of guardians should appoint as many fully qualified nurses as the Local Government Board should direct. That rule was preposterous, although it might be conceded that in the case of an epidemic some trained nurses should be appointed. Resolutions had been adopted against the Order, and he trusted they would have the full consideration of the Chief Secretary and the Irish Government. There was the strongest reason to complain under the existing circumstances of the regulations made by the Local Government Board in regard to the appointment of assistant surveyors. There was a great deal more in this than appeared on the surface. The Local Government Board had laid down a scale of qualifications for these assistant surveyors in Ireland which were preposterous considering the state of education in Ireland. For instance, that scale provided that every person applying for such a position must either possess a diploma or degree in engineering from a university or college of science, or a certificate from His Majesty's Civil Service Commissioners that he was qualified under the Civil Service Act; or should be an associate member of the Institute of Civil Engineers of London, or an associate member of the Institute of Civil Engineers of Ireland, or of the Incorporated Association of Municipal and County Engineers. If he was an assistant surveyor on 1st April he must satisfy the Local Government Board that he was fully qualified for the discharge of the duties of his office. Now what were these conditions of the Local Government Board? That he must have served with a county surveyor or architect for two years, or that he must have been in attendance at an engineering school or some university for not less than one year, during which he must have been practically engaged in civil engineering or in building construction. Or he must pass examinations in English composition, arithmetic, mensuration, building construction, construction of

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    culverts and roads, and be an adept in chain surveying and levelling. In fact what was wanted was a trained civil engineer and surveyor, while the great majority of the people of Ireland who were likely to be candidates for the berth of assistant county surveyor would have no means of gaining these qualifications. It should be remembered that the salary of these assistant surveyors was only £80 a year, while their work was of the most elementary description—measuring, or removing stones on the road, seeing that the grass was not growing on the road, and that the water ran away from the roads. He contended that these regulations of the Local Government Board were an absolute absurdity.
    He wished to call attention to the recent dispute between the Wexford County Council and the Local Government Board on the question of the salaries of the officials of the county council which had been ordered to be paid by the Local Government Board. There were debates in Parliament, and the result of the whole thing was that the Local Government Board reduced the salary of the county surveyor by £4. To anyone not accustomed to the condition of things in Ireland that would be simply astounding. Was it to be wondered at that the Irish people sympathised with all who rebelled against British administration, and could not one quite realise and understand the intensity of feeling which existed among the masses of the people against British rule? He wished to draw the attention of the Committee to a passage in the judgment of Chief Baron Palles, who tried a case in the Court of Appeal, to which he thought sufficient attention had not been given, and on which they ought, again and again, to ring the changes in order to show how British administration in Ireland was carried on. Chief Baron Palles said that the determination of the Local Government Board to fix the increased remuneration imposed a liability on the county council whether the amount was right or wrong, and that even if the Local Government Board had increased a salary by 50 per cent., whereas the work had only increased 20 per cent., the county council would be obliged to pay. Was it conceivable
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    that a law of that kind should be permitted to continue, or that such an extraordinary perversion of justice should not be rectified at the earliest possible moment? If it were an English Act, a Bill would be immediately introduced to amend it, and yet, although one of the ablest judges in Ireland described the law as he had stated, no action was taken. That was a monstrous position and ought to be remedied. The question in dispute was with a mere Irish county council, and of course the Local Government Board would not give in. They were determined to ride rough-shod over the council and to carry out their determination at all hazards. No doubt the Chief Secretary would explain in the course of the debate that the county council ought to have given evidence. It was made a great point against the council that they had brought forward no evidence, but the reason was that, in the first place, they were not responsible for the inquiry and repudiated it; and, in the second place, they held that the Local Government Board, being an interested party, was incapable of holding the inquiry. Therefore the council would not recognise it in any shape or form, although they agreed to leave the question to the arbitration of any impartial person. He himself was present at the inquiry, and listened very carefully to what went on, and he was perfectly satisfied that there would have been no use in producing any evidence whatever. What had happened showed that the county council had considerable warrant for the way in which they acted. It would be presumed that the Local Government Board would have some knowledge of the domestic history of the county. For instance, it was stated that the work of the county and deputy surveyors under the Grand Jury was utterly impossible to fulfil. Why, therefore, when they were told that the work was a physical impossibility, should an increase of salary be given for it? Again it was well known that the county surveyor had a free pass over the Irish railways, and he could not therefore understand why travelling expenses should have been claimed. The Local Government Board reversed their original decision, and reduced one salary by £4 and a few other salaries by £5 each. When that extraordinary

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    decision was made known the county council applied to the Local Government Board for the grounds on which it was arrived at, but the Local Government Board refused to give any reasons. Apparently they imagined that the matter did not affect the county council or the ratepayers, who had to pay the increased salary, and that the only persons interested were the Local Government Board themselves. The refusal of the Local Government Board to give the Wexford County Council any information was part of the whole system of the administration of the country, and was perfectly outrageous. The Irish Times, the leading paper supporting the Government in Ireland, referring to the refusal of the Local Government Board, said that there seemed to be no sufficient reason why the report of the inspector who carried out the local inquiry should not have been produced, and it added that the manner in which the question would be decided would largely determine the relations which would exist in future not merely between the Wexford County Council and the Local Government Board, but also between other county councils and the Board. The aim of the Local Government Board, added the Irish Times, should be to bring conviction to the minds of the members of the county council by explaining first of all their decision and then the principle they followed in calculating the amount of the increase in each case. If the Local Government Board, continued the Irish Times, would do that, it would do much towards gaining for them the confidence of the Irish county councils; but, on the other hand, if the full facts were not furnished, not only would the Wexford County Council be dissatisfied, but other county councils would also be affected. He would invite the Chief Secretary to reconsider the matter. If it were to be brought to an issue in a peaceful manner there must be common sense on both sides; there must be some endeavour to meet the feelings of the people on the part of the Local Government Board; and some explanation must be forthcoming as to the reasons on which that Board acted in increasing the salaries. The main objection of the Wexford County Council to the increase in the salaries was not that they were too high—although
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    they were too high—but that the action of the Local Government Board reduced the Local Government Act to a nullity by imposing liabilities on the taxpayers and treating the representatives of the people with absolute disregard. Had the Local Government Board really wished for a satisfactory conclusion, the matter could have been settled over and over again. It would have been settled when the predecessor of the right hon. Gentleman was in office if the Board had shown any common sense. He invited the Chief Secretary again to give the county council the reasons which led the Local Government Board to increase the salaries. He went further, and said that, if the grounds on which the Board acted were reasonable, he would do his best to induce the county council to take a reasonable view of the matter. He hoped the Chief Secretary would realise that the question was a very serious one. Even though the case was decided in the courts against the county council, it did not follow that the course pursued by the Board was desirable. For his part he was extremely anxious to find a solution of the difficulty, but the matter rested altogether with the Chief Secretary and the Local Government Board.
    MR. SHEEHANsaid he had listened with the utmost attention to the eloquent and exhaustive speech of the hon. Baronet the Member for Wexford on the administration of the Local Government Act, with whose remarks he entirely concurred. He did not propose to follow on the same lines. There was another phase of the administration of the Local Government Board to which he would direct attention, especially as it affected the well-being, comfort, and better housing of a large protion of the Irish population. He referred to the manner in which the Labourers Acts were interpreted and administered, to the almost interminable delays which occurred, and to the generally unsatisfactory condition of their application. The duty was forced upon Irish members by their constituents every other day of bringing under the notice of this House instances of hardships and of the vagaries and absurdities of Local Government Board inspectors in the rejection of applications

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    for labourers' cottages. Any cause appeared to be good enough to deprive a poor labourer of his cottage.
    In the case of the Cork Rural District Council they found the inspector advancing the luminous reason for throwing out whole batches of cottages that they were apparently not required. In other cases the equally solid and conclusive reason was advanced that the landlord objected, the tenant wanted the land for himself, and a host of other equally silly and absurd causes. It was a standing ground of complaint with the working men in Ireland that the Labourers Acts were not administered in a manner sympathetic to them, and as this was a question which seriously affected the material and moral progress of the country it was one which should engage the very best attention which the Government could bestow on it. He held if there was to be any respect for the administration of the Labourers Acts in Ireland, definite and conclusive reasons should be assigned in each case by the inspector, setting forth the points of evidence upon which he decided to reject cottages. This would be at least one step in the right direction, and he felt assured that if an Order to this effect were issued by the Local Government Board fewer cottages would be rejected, and the feeling of discontent which at present existed amongst the working men would be considerably lessened.
    Schemes of cottages were often prepared with great difficulty and expense by rural district councils, they investigated every claim, and passed none which did not appear to them a just and reasonable one, and yet when these schemes were sent forward to the Local Government Board, when inquiries were held and the result sent down to the councils, after all the care and all the trouble that had been taken in communication with them, was it not a galling state of things that frequently more than one-half of the cottages originally applied for were rejected? Undoubtedly one of the great contributory causes to the depopulation of Ireland was the fact that the working classes were so badly housed. The Labourers Acts have been in operation for close upon twenty years, but it was a striking commentary upon the manner in which they had been administered
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    that thousands of labourers in Ireland still lived in wretched abodes, and that in no case, except perhaps in that of Macroom, in his own constituency, was the limit of taxation in respect to cottages—namely, 1s. in the £—reached. In this age of progress, and when the means of travelling to other countries were so moderate, people would not live in hovels in which the brute beasts would not be housed, and which were the fruitful breeding grounds of epidemics of the worst and most malevolent kind.
    He now came to the question of delays—delays of the law and of the Local Government Board. Notwithstanding the replies of the Chief Secretary to questions of his on the subject, he contended that the Local Government Board were responsible for delays in the holding of inquiries into improvement schemes, and he had the admission of the right hon. Gentleman that three inspectors had to be appointed temporarily to cope with the work which the Custom House authorities in their carelessness allowed to accumulate. This, to his mind, was sufficient refutation of the assertion of the Chief Secretary that no delays occurred. He held, and he knew it of his own knowledge to be a fact, and he was certain if the Chief Secretary took the trouble to inquire he would find it to be so, that even, after all the preliminaries had been complied with, and all the necessary documents sent to the Local Government Board, a year often elapses before an inquiry was held. Then, if there were any appeals from the decision of the Local Government Board, they must go before the Privy Council, and more time was wasted. And, finally, before the order would be made absolute, a Local Government arbitrator must assess the compensation to be awarded to the landlord and tenant. Hence it not infrequently happened that from the time a rural district council adopted a resolution to execute an improvement scheme until that scheme was finally sanctioned by the Local Government Board a period of three years elapsed, which, if the laws were properly framed and applied, should not take six months altogether. Such were the law's delays, and such the absurd red-tapeism of the well-known circumlocution office in Dublin. Not only did this meaningless procedure involve

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    loss to the ratepayers, but it was also a great injustice to the labourers, who were kept for years waiting for cottages.
    The next point in his criticism of the Local Government Board was the fact that the supervision exercised by their engineering inspectors over the erection of labourers' cottages was most inefficient and most unsatisfactory. Indeed, of their inspectors it might be said they came, they saw, and they reported. That appeared to be the beginning and the end of their work. The duty was cast upon them of seeing that the houses were properly built with the right materials, and the final instalment of the contract money could not be paid to the contractor until a certificate was given by the Local Government Board engineering inspector that the house was in every way built according to plan and specification. It was notorious that contracts had been frequently scamped, that the cottages had been jerry-built and put together anyhow, with the result that the occupants were in a constant state of revolt, rents were not paid, repairs had to be constantly made, the cottages were a disgrace, and the purpose and intention of the Labourers Acts were frustrated. Of course, it was not to be supposed that the engineers appointed by the rural district councils were to be absolved from all blame. He was free to admit that they were often incompetent, and selected without due reference to their qualifications, but, if this was so, why did the Local Government Board, which possessed a veto in the matter, sanction their appointment, and why did it not put down its foot and insist on the appointment of properly qualified engineers? Looked at from any point of view, he submitted that the Local Government Board was primarily responsible for the erection of badly-constructed houses, and that before the bar of public opinion they would be held guilty of gross neglect in this respect.
    The most scandalous feature in connection with the administration of the Labourers Acts, the greatest defect in their provisions, was the manner in which they dealt with fishermen. He was not exaggerating when he said that there was no more deserving or industrious body of Irishmen than the fishermen off its
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    coasts. They reaped the harvest of the sea, they swept it with their nets, they braved its dangers, they had a most irksome and a most toilsome calling, yet would it be believed they did not come within the scope of the Labourers Acts; they could not become tenants of labourers' cottages unless they devoted a considerable portion of the year to agricultural work, and were paid for that work by actual wages. Could anything be more absurd or more unjust than this? He had before his mind at this moment the cases of a number of fishermen in the Skibbereen Union, who recently applied for labourers' cottages, but every one of whose applications were rejected because the Local Government Board inspector held that they did not spend a sufficient portion of the year at agricultural work, though they gave evidence that they worked occasionally for neighbouring farmers. All he could say of such conduct was that where Local Government Board inspectors thus interpreted the law, God help the poor fishermen.
    He took occasion some months ago to visit a number of houses occupied by fishermen in south-west Cork, and he could not convey to this House by words the faintest idea of their wretchedness and squalidness. Many of them had only one compartment, which was kitchen, bedroom, and all; others had no proper division for the sexes, and young and old, male and female, lived and slept indiscriminately together, and this was doubtless a shocking picture, but it was painfully true, and what was more, it was a disgrace to the Government which did not seek to instantly remove it. He could honestly aver that in any single one of the fishermen's houses which he visited none of the gentlemen sitting on the opposite benches would even kennel a dog for which they entertained the slightest regard. That being so, he made an earnest appeal to the Chief Secretary to introduce legislation early in the next session which would bring fishermen by mere right of their avocation within the operations of the Labourers Acts; and not only did he make this appeal for fishermen, but extended it also for the rural tradesmen, and for every class of working men who were not at present

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    decently housed, and whose position and prospects would be improved, whose social status would be elevated were they provided with better dwellings and reasonable plots of land. The rural tradesman was a most important part of the economy of any district; he was necessary to the farming, fishing community, and he should be fixed and rooted on the soil. He hoped the Chief Secretary would not overlook their claims when an amendment of the Labourers Acts came to be considered.
    He would now pass to the personnel of the inspectors. The Irish Government departments appeared to be repositories for all the half-pay officers of the Army, for Militia colonels—he believed they called them Saturday to Monday colonels in this country—and for at least one son of a well-known Orange member of Parliament for the north of Ireland, whom he did not see in his place at this moment. He maintained that it was ridiculous and absurd to expect that there could be proper administration of the Labourers Acts when gentlemen such as these were appointed as inspectors. What did they know about legal technicalities? Nothing whatever, and he was firmly convinced when any question of doubt arose their leanings were not on the side of the unfortunate labourer. A juster selection, and one more in accord with the views and opinions of the people, should be made than that at present favoured by the Government.
    He wished in conclusion to say a few words on the question of appeals to the Privy Council. As the law at present stood, should any party feel dissatisfied with the result of the Local Government Board inquiry, they might appeal to the Privy Council, which would necessitate taking the whole union staff to Dublin, and would mean the addition of a considerable burden to the taxes borne by the ratepayers. A much simpler method in his opinion was, if there must be an appeal, let it be to the county court judge or the Land Sub-Commission, neither of which tribunals could be regarded as prejudiced on the labourers' side. He did not wish to occupy the time of the Committee further, but he expressed the hope that the Chief Secretary would seriously take into
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    consideration the advisability of reforming, where such was found to be necessary, the administration of the Labourers Acts.
    MR. MOOREsaid he found himself a good deal in agreement with the hon. Member who had last spoken on this subject of the housing of the labouring classes, for it was a grievance which was felt in the north of Ireland as much as in the south. He thought, however, that a great deal depended upon the manner in which the rural sanitary authorities exercised their powers in respect to the houses inhabited by the working classes, some of which, for sanitary reasons alone, ought to be condemned. Whether they started under the Labourers Act or the Public Health Act, in order to begin at the root of the whole matter, they must first have the certificate of their sanitary officer. He thought sanitary officers might do a great deal more towards solving this problem. Who were those sanitary officers in Ireland? In almost every case they were the dispensary doctors. There were no more highly respectable men in Ireland than those doctors, for they knew the people well, and it was upon these men that they placed the duty of reporting insanitary property. They ought to remember that while this officer had to report instances of insanitary houses on the one hand, he was absolutely the servant of the rural council on the other hand. The rural council had to decide his pension, and they were his masters, and had the control of his superannuation. When a sanitary officer found himself in such a position in a small country district they all knew what influences were brought to bear. Until they took this duty off the shoulders of the dispensary doctors and appointed independent inspectors to deal with the housing of the working classes in Ireland, they would not be doing anything to get at the real difficulty in the administration of those Acts. Inquiries were held under the Labourers' Cottages Act in the various unions, but the present system of inquiry was very unsatisfactory. He had nothing whatever to say against the conduct of the Local Government Board inspectors at those inquiries.

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    Under the present system he did not think anything more could be done th n was being done. What they ought to do was to appoint independent inspectors to report directly to the Local Government Board, and then have the matter brought before the rural council in the ordinary way. In that way they would get out of the difficulty by degrees. If they would insist on enforcing the sanitary provisions of the Public Health Act, they would also be doing a great deal for the labourers, but until they took the burden off the shoulders of the dispensary doctors they would never get independent or impartial reports. He hoped that sooner or later they would have some inspectors appointed who would go through the country and find out for themselves what was really required.
    MR. CULLINANsaid he could not agree with the argument of the hon. Member for North Antrim in regard to the work of the dispensary doctors. In the first place, the labourers and their friends prepared their application, and all the dispensary doctors had to do was to certify whether the cottage was in a sanitary condition. Consequently it was not true that the doctor in certifying a house was placing himself at the mercy of the local authority. The estimate of three years given by the hon. Member for Mid Cork for the passage of a scheme was not at all equal to his own experience, for he had known a period of four years and nine months elapse in the case of one scheme. He had seen the Local Government Board led away upon the smallest nonsensical idea on the part of the land owners. The inspectors were not in sympathy with the labourers or the farmers, and when they went into poor districts, composed largely of Nationalists, they pitched out the applications by the score. The delay in investigating cases was most appalling. There was a very large sum down in the Vote for salaries for the inspectors, and large amounts were also allowed them for travelling expenses, and the district councils also had to contribute to the expenses incurred by them. The constitution of the Local Government Board was most objectionable to the Irish people. Parliament gave them a Local Government
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    Act creating county and district councils, and then the harmonious working of the Act was hampered by the Local Government Board, which was out of sympathy altogether with the needs of the people of Ireland. They appointed a temporary Commissioner at a salary of £1,000 a year, and they made him the representative of the Grand Jury, which was hostile and antagonistic to every national sentiment in Ireland. In the year 1881 the Nationalists took over the control of the boards of guardians in Ireland. The Irish workhouses were then in a most wretched and miserable state; no ventilation, bad light, insufficient bed and bedding. The camps in South Africa could not be worse than the Irish workhouses were at that time. What had happened since? They set to work to improve that state of things. Now the workhouses were well ventilated, the light was good, and the inmates were getting proper food. And notwithstanding that all this had been done the Local Government Board were daily trying to force them to increase the accommodation and provision for the inmates simply in order to send up the rates. Take the years 1878 and 1898. In 1878 the population of Ireland was 5,282,246 whilst in 1898 the population was 4,576,181, or a decrease of 706,065. In the year 1878 the taxes amounted to £2,039,783, and in the year 1898 the total was £2,361,575, or an increase of £321,792. This result had taken place in face of the fact that a great decrease had taken place in the number of inmates in those institutions. In the year 1881 the population was 5,174,836, the Poor Law expenditure £965,128, while the number relieved was 589,849; in the year 1898 the population was 4,576,181, the Poor Law expenditure £981,333, and the number relieved fell to 525,104. So that in the year 1898, as compared with the year 1881, although the number of inmates relieved had been reduced by 64,745, the expenditure upon Poor Law institutions had increased by £16,205. That showed distinctly that it was not in relief to the poor that they were spending the money, but it was being spent in salaries and other expenses, which the Local Government Board were forcing upon the local boards

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    of guardians. He knew of one case where an item was surcharged, although the expenditure had been ordered at the very instance of the Local Government Board. The Local Government Board, by every possible means they could devise, were making such conditions in the qualifications for officers and officials as would debar Nationalists from getting those appointments. The securities they were insisting upon for rate collectors ware so high that this fact alone would deprive the poorer classes of the chance of ever getting such appointments, because they would not be able to give the security required. For years the Local Government Board in Ireland had been endeavouring to force additional officers upon the guardians, but he was glad to say that in most cases the boards of guardians had been equal to the occasion. It had been laid down that they must have specially trained nurses, and this seemed the thin end of the wedge which was aimed at a section of the community who had conferred the greatest benefit upon the people of Ireland—he alluded to the nuns. An attempt had been made to compel the guardians to disqualify those nurses unless they went through a course of training, but it would be a very unpleasant thing indeed to put any other nurses over the heads of those now in the institutions on account of this new faddist idea. They knew what class of nurses the Local Government Board would send down. He saw on the Paper that morning a question with, regard to the high sheriff of some county having gone with a sledge hammer and broken into the office of the secretary of the county council. That was a matter which demanded explanation, and he hoped the Chief Secretary would give an assurance that such conduct would not he tolerated. He called attention to the fact that a new system of county council book-keeping had been introduced by the officials of the Local Government Board in Dublin. It appeared to him that the system was very complicated. One of the auditors when asked what should be put in a certain column could not tell. This new system would necessitate the employment of four or six times the present staff. Besides being unworkable and extravagant the system would cause terrible worry to the officials.
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    There were five times the number of books now as compared with the old system. It was an extraordinary fact that the Local Government Board gentleman who devised this system of keeping the accounts had actually sent out a circular to the county and district councils recommending the books which were to be got from a certain printing firm in Dublin. Irishmen were not very suspicious in some things, but it looked very like as if there was a little bit of commission in a transaction of this kind.
    MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he would undertake to demonstrate to the Chief Secretary that the Order of the Local Government Board with regard to the examination of assistant surveyors as prescribed in a very elaborate code had now become ultra vires and illegal. Under the Act of 1837 an assistant county surveyor was to receive £70 a year, and it could not be raised by any means. In 1864 or 1865 an amending Act was passed raising the salary to £80 a year, and that amount for all future appointments was to be the maximum. He quoted the Local Government Board Report of 1890 to show the construction which the Board had put upon the Local Government Act, and that it was upon the basis of their construction—a construction which had been nullified by the Court of Appeal in Ireland—that they had prescribed these examinations. The hon. Member pointed out that one of the paragraphs in the Report prescribed the qualifications for candidates who, on obtaining appointments, were to begin at a minimum of £120 a year, and who, according to his construction, might go up to a maximum of £250 a year. It might be a very reasonable thing that a man who might get a salary of £250 a year should know mensuration, trigonometry, French, German, and the classics, although he did not think such qualifications were required in connection with the mending of roads. But no salary in any future appointment could be more than the maximum prescribed by the Acts of 1837 and 1864, and therefore all this about scale and the men having a maximum and minimum salary, according to the size of their divisions, had been done away with. With regard to existing

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    officers, no examination could be prescribed because they were already in office, and therefore French, German, mensuration, and trigonometry did not apply to them. The examination code could only be applied to new men. Was it not an absurdity to say that some of these unfortunate men should be acquainted with the subjects mentioned in the code? Some of them, he knew, were decent, honest, respectable tradesmen. He knew one who was a carpenter, and a very good carpenter, but to suggest that that man should know mensuration and trigonometry was an absurdity. Therefore, if the Local Government Board had had any reasonable regard for the decision of the law courts, they would have withdrawn this absurd qualification examination as a necessary corollary of their defeat by the Wexford County Council.
    A great deal of mischief had arisen in the working of the Local Government Act from the appointment of Mr. Bagnell, and he wished to ask the Government as to his retention in office. He strongly protested against Mr. Morris being retired. That gentleman offered an additional term of service of two or three years—in other words, they suggested that he should take the burden of seeing in motion this new system. He would thereby have got an addition of two or three years salary, and he would have got all the dirty work and none of the reasonable honour and glory after the Act had been started. The appointment of Mr. Bagnell was made to placate the House of Lords. The Act was passed by the House of Lords with a private understanding with the Irish landlords that some strong, offensive gentleman should be appointed, and accordingly they picked out the most offensive member of the Grand Jury who could be found. Mr. Bagnell had not been that success which they were led to believe. He began his career of office by declaring that the Local Government Act was the worst-drafted Act that had ever been passed. If the Government had had one spark of spunk in regard to the measure on which they spent their nights and days they would have kicked him out of office without any more ceremony than they would kick out a hall porter. He was
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    retained in office with the usual caution, because he had strong friends in the Ministry, and, of course, his expulsion would only have given offence to that body. He understood Mr. Bagnell was only appointed for three years. [An HON. MEMBER: Five years.] Well, worse luck. If he had been appointed for five years they might expect some hundreds and thousands of pounds more on the Irish rates. The zeal of these people for the poor of Ireland synchronised exactly with the moment when the landlords were relieved. They had shown great zeal for lunatics. It was a mistake for any man to be sane in Ireland. So long as a man was a poor labourer in Ireland he was allowed to dwell in an insanitary house, and his family might have typhoid fever, but let him become insane and he was lodged in a palace at once. He got electric light and four meals a day, and port wine, and he had a magnificent garden to roam in, and 300 inspectors to come and feel his pulse. It was really not wonderful that lunacy was on the increase in Ireland.
    The same thing might be said of the whole system of administration. What he complained of strongly was that, in a little country of small people—the average valuation was something like £10 or £15—every penny was not scrutinised by the Local Government Board. When one heard these inspectors talk, it was "Only another 1d. or 2d. in the pound"; or "It will only cost you 2s. 6d. to bring this man in or send out that man." It was perfectly scandalous that the Local Government Board should insist on the appointment of a single extra man when their sole aim and object ought to be the relief of the people. He sympathised to some extent with some of the increases in this Vote, if it were the fact that the increase of inspectors was necessary for quickening up the administration of the Labourers Act. But he would like to ask what hope there was for a country the whole of the local administration of which was in the hands of people who were alien in sympathy with the people for whose wants they were supposed to provide? How could it be expected that Dives would sympathise with Lazarus? He did not do it 2,000 years ago, and would not do so

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    to-day. If the Government took some of the people who were appointed as National schoolmasters and appointed them as Local Government officers; if they appointed a man in a frieze coat to the post of Local Government Inspector, they would find he would look more into things, and his services would be much appreciated by the Local Government Board. He admitted there was an enormous difficulty, but he had come to the conclusion that the whole system of audit, inspection, and centralised government was not worth paying for. It was too costly. It probably saved the rates 1s. and cost 2s. 6d. He demonstrated some years ago that the cost of lending £1 to a farmer was £3, and to-day he believed that with this huge army of inspectors and this system of quasi-foreigners going about and worrying the people for the sake of 21s. 4d. in the £ was too costly. It would be better to wink at a little jobbery—there is jobbery in every country, and would be to the end of the world—and he thought that, as a tradesman writes off a certain amount of bad debts every year, they might write off a little for jobbery, and as the administration cost 10 per cent., they would probably save 7¼.
    The system of administration was top-heavy and unsuitable for a small country, and ought to be abolished. It would take Sir Isaac Newton or some other great mathematical mind to understand the books of the Local Government Board. Was it any wonder that they were all copyright, and that the copyright was held by the Local Government Board Inspectors? In Cork there were sixty clerks to do the work of the office, which under the grand jury was done by two, and there were millions of entries where formerly there were half a dozen. He saw a statement from Armagh which said they would have to build new local offices, because they had no room for their clerks. How was it the grand jury were able to do their work with a secretary and assistant secretary? Having initiated this appaling system of administration, the Government make it a ground for increasing the salaries. At page ten of the Report it said—
    "In estimating the amount of extra work imposed on existing officers transferred to the
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    county council it is necessary for us to examine each separate office, and ascertain the extent and the nature of the duties connected with it."
    Could not they have left it alone and left the clerks to make their own calculations? In the case of secretaries, it is only necessary to have some knowledge of the conplicated provisions of the Local Government Act." Why are they complicated? The Irish representatives protested against the complications, but their protests were ignored, and the cost was to be put on the taxpayers of Ireland. Then—
    "Orders of Council made thereunder, and to understand the amount, variety, and intricacies of the new duties devolving on the officers."
    What are the new duties? Suppose they took a road—it was the same old road, requiring the same amount of gravel and sand, and the rain of heaven descended upon it in the same way year after year. Then why was he to pay increased rates because the Local Government Board secretary kept his entries in five volumes when he previously made five entries, "and the work involved but increased meetings of the county council"? The Grand Juries met twice a year, and they were able to cope with all the work. Now the county councils must meet thirty times. Fancy a county surveyor in Ireland getting an increase of £200 a year on his salary for attending the meetings of the county council and listening to the oratory and the resolutions passed by that body. He was not to talk, only to listen. That was one sub-head. Another sub-head was increased correspondence. Why should there be an increase in the correspondence? There ought to be no correspondence. There was no correspondence between the grand juries and the Local Government Board, and why should the councils communicate with them? There was no reason under the sun that he could possibly imagine. "Increase of work in respect to finance." What increase was there, except the keeping of these copyright books which had been prescribed? All they wanted, and what the Government denied in regard to this Local Government Board, was an Act providing for an elective body, to take the place of the grand juries, and the handing over of the

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    powers of the grand juries to those elective bodies. What he complained of was that the extra sums they had to pay were not the result of local administration, but of a state of things imposed upon the country by the Local Government Board.
    The last question was as to the collection of the poor rate. That had to be collected in the past as it had now. And he could find no ground whatever for the huge system of additions to salaries all along the line. One word with regard to what the hon. Baronet had said as to the action of the Local Government Board in evading the course of the law, as he understood the Court of Appeal in Ireland decided that this increase of £200 a year on the salary of this local agent was an illegal increase. That decision was made public, and he thought it was rather indecent of the Local Government Board to take off the sum of £4, and give no reason for their action. They fixed the salary at £196. The right hon. Gentleman was the head of local government in Ireland, but he did not know to what extent he was responsible, and it would be rather hard to hold him responsible for everything done by the Local Government Board. But he thought in regard to a case which has been made the subject of two Parliamentary Papers, to do a thing of this kind was an evasion of the law. The hon. Baronet had made a suggestion of a compromise, which the right hon. Gentleman had accepted with thankfulness in the case of Dr. Cullen, whom the Local Government Board insisted on dismissing for an offence he did not commit. After two years wrangling the right hon. Gentleman had said he would fine him a year's salary for the offence he did not commit and reinstate him. He congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on having arrived at a reasonable solution of that difficulty. Let him apply the same spirit of compromise to this question of salaries, which had engaged so much attention and aroused so much hostility. Everybody knew that these officials in Ireland were appointed by the landlords, and being friends and protégés of the landlords the salaries would be disposed to be fairly comfortable and reasonable. Why, then, should the Local Government
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    Board increase them by £200, £300, and £400 all over the country? Those who had to pay these enormously increased salaries were people who were living on potatoes and salt, and who saw their sons and daughters exiled to England and America in order to earn small wages. Was it not enough to make the blood of the people boil? He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would turn his attention to bring some persuasion on the Local Government Board, of which, after all, he was chairman, to reform all these matters.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM, Dover): The hon. Baronet the Member for North Wexford and the hon. and learned Member who has just spoken have complained generally of the additional cost to the Irish ratepayers which has been incurred since the passing of the Local Government Act of 1898, and of the additional work which has been thrown on the local government bodies. One would have supposed that the similar Act passed for England had not also entailed a greater amount of work on the English county authorities, but I am sure that the chairmen of the quarter sessions and county councils in England could show that their work was a great deal harder now than before, and that the costs had also vastly increased. Then the hon. Member said that the correspondence had increased. Now, if the hon. Member only referred to the number of questions which I have had to answer in regard to labourers' cottages alone, he would be able to judge of the number of letters which reached the Local Government Board on the subject of Irish local government, and the number of replies that had to be made to them. The blame does not rest wholly on the Local Government Board, for if schemes have to be devised for three or four years before a solution can be reached under the Act, there must be an enormous amount of correspondence. I have a great deal of sympathy with hon. members as to unnecessary inspections, but I do not know where a remedy is to be found. The hon. Member said that Ireland was over-inspected. That must strike everyone who has visited Ireland. I have heard of a gentleman who visited

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    the congested districts—one of the poorest parts of Ireland—where he dined on successive evenings with the poor law inspector, then with the fisheries inspector, next with the public health inspector, and on yet another evening with the lunacy inspector—and then he left the digested district! Whose fault is it? [An IRISH MEMBER: Yours.] Anyone who listened to the debate this afternoon or to the questions asked must have seen that Member after Member asked for more inspectors. Now if those little tiny points are to be determined with regard to the absolute justice and equity of the case it can only be done by men of education and experience. An hon. Member said that they could get a man to do it at £1 a week, and that he would give satisfaction to the people of Ireland. That is a very sanguine view. My experience is that nobody would give satisfaction to the people of Ireland, at the foot of the ranges of hills in the West, who have some grievance to investigate, who want more labourers' cottages, or that existing cottages are in the wrong place, except a man in whom they had confidence; and I maintain that they have confidence in gentlemen of good education, not connected with the locality, and who are not likely to be employed mainly by their neighbours. The hon. Gentleman abused some of the gentlemen who have been employed as inspectors—one especially, a major. I have, however, found that officers of the British Army have often furnished the most useful administrators in the State.
    The hon. and learned Member for North Louth made a good deal of fun as to the distribution of patronage in Ireland. But the applications for posts are sufficiently amusing. The other week I had an application in the following terms—
    "Sir,—As it was on the 2nd February our beloved Queen was interred, I venture to ask in her name a post for my husband."
    The Committee must not suppose that a ready ear is lent to appeals of that character. The hon. Member made an unwarrantable attack on one of my colleagues on the Local Government Board, not, of course, on personal grounds, but because he was in sympathy with the old grand jury system, and that
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    therefore he ought not to have been put on the new Local Government Board. But that gentleman had been deliberately put on the new Board because he had knowledge of the old system. He was on the Board not as an arbiter, but as an assessor—a man who bad been distinguished for the great attention he had given to, and had ably expounded, the old grand jury system. The hon. Member seemed to think that it had been this gentleman who had urged what he called the extravagant expenditure insisted upon by the Local Government Board. But that is not so. As a matter of fact the old grand jury system was old-fashioned in its love for economy, and in some cases that love had pushed economy too far. As the representative of the old grand jury system the gentleman was a rigid economist, and it was not to him but to other gentlemen on the Local Government Board that extravagance, if extravagance there has been, was to be attributed. But is it fair to take the expenditure of the year 1878 or 1879 and compare it with that of last year, under an entirely different system, and complain of extravagance?
    MR. FLAVINasked if the right hon. Gentleman was aware that it was this same gentleman who had compelled the Kerry County Council to pay their officials £400 a year more than under the old grand jury system.
    MR. WYNDHAM: That was the result of the Act passed by this House. I cannot follow the hon. and learned Member for North Louth as to the sliding scale of salaries for the county surveyors; but I imagine he referred to the scale of salaries on the mileage system. From that he went to accuse the Local Government Board for prescribing an absurd system of examinations for new candidates for assistant surveyorships, and for existing officers. There is no relation between the two. But the Local Government Board has, according to the Act, to give its approval to any appointment made by the county council.
    MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that his point was this. Was such a system of examination commensurate with such a small salary as £80 which was attached to these offices?
    MR. WYNDHAM: The Local Government Board are under the Act bound to approve of any such appointment, and they cannot give such approval without taking some steps to test the man's ability.
    MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that the right hon. Gentleman forgot that one of his arguments was that when they fixed these examinations the salary was to range from £120 to £150 a year; but that it had now been decided the salary should be £80 a year. Why should a man getting only £80 a year be compelled to pass in mensuration and trigonometry?
    MR. WYNDHAM: Of course it is desirable to get the best man for the money. I am ready to admit that, in my opinion, the sole responsibility for making these appointments must rest with the county councils, and not with the Local Government Board, subject, however, to the approval of the Local Government Board. It must be remembered that by law the county councils are prohibited from paying the assistant surveyors more than £80 a year. I concede that I do not think that it is the duty of the Local Government Board in this respect to do the work of the county councils, and I believe that there would be no difficulty in regard to future appointments. As to the, increase of the rates referred to by the hon. Baronet, the additional cost is not so great as the hon. Baronet had alleged. For the standard year the poor rate and county cess amounted to £1,533,124 after deducting the agricultural grant; in 1900 the net rates were £1,533,836; in 1901 the exact rates were £1,627,003; and in 1902 the estimated total was £1,587,598, so that the slight increase in 1901 was being wiped out, and they were going back to the standard figures. Some complaint had been made of the complication of accounts which had been imposed by the Local Government Act. I can assure hon. members that the Local Government Board have done their best to arrive at the simplest form of accounts by which they can carry out the objects of the Act; but if hon. members who are members of county councils can make any suggestion for a simpler form of accounts I shall be glad to consider it favourably.
    SIR THOMAS ESMONDEasked if the right hon. Gentleman would not appoint a small committee to investigate the matter, and suggest a simpler form of accounts.
    MR. WYNDHAM: As the hon. Baronet is a capable member of a county council, I shall be very glad to accept any suggestion from him which will not end in a failure in carrying out the provisions of the Act—which ought, of course, to be carried out in the simplest and cheapest way. It had been said that the Local Government Board was increasing the expenses by sending round inspectors to urge the councils to employ more hands in getting out the rates. Some hon. members did not realise the work which necessarily had fallen on the county council, but which had been done before by a number of other bodies. The Local Government Board auditors reported on the progress of the accounts, and if they found that the work was not being done, and that the staff was insufficient, or not up to their work, that fact was reported to the Local Government Board, which informed the county council thereof, but never attempted to use compulsion as to employing more hands on the staff. Under the old system the preparation of the poor rates in a county containing, say, eight poor law unions, occupied four or five men in each union in order to get the rate ready in time. The county cess appointments perhaps necessitated some eight or ten more, so that some forty people were employed under the old system in striking the rates. Some of these councils complained that the Local Government Board inspector had advised them to employ, say, a dozen extra clerks in addition to the two assistants which the county council secretary had. Why, in the county of Mayo it had taken forty to fifty clerks three months of hard work to put its affairs in order. I do not complain that, when certain duties had been shifted from other bodies to the county council, there should have been mistakes, and it is only natural that some disappointment should have been created in regard to the cost of the administrative work of the county council. As to the sending of the minutes of the proceedings of the local bodies to the Local Government Board, it was quite natural that

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    that should be done, in order to avoid a great deal of correspondence; but there is no compulsion. It helps in many cases when disputes arise, and enables the local authorities to work harmoniously with the central body.
    AN IRISH MEMBER: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Local Government Board sent a severe reprimand to a county council for not having sent in a copy of the minutes?
    MR. WYNDHAM: As I have said, there is no order or compulsion to do so, but it was for the convenience of both parties. The hon. Baronet made a complaint based upon the expense of auditing asylum accounts. Such complaints ought to be brought against the Acts passed by this House and not against the Local Government Board. The cost now falls on the local government bodies which was formerly paid by the Treasury, but that is part and parcel of the bargain made for local government, and forms part of the grant-in-aid. A great deal has been said about the increase of salaries to the officers of the county council. The county surveyors and assistant surveyors are, according to the Act, to be given an extra salary for any increase of work imposed upon them. It is a statutory obligation that the existing officers were to have continuous employment at their old emoluments, but that if their duties are increased their emoluments are to be increased, and that the amount of that increase shall be determined by the Local Government Board, and by no one else; and that if these officers elect to retire there shall be pensions granted to them calculated at the Civil Service rates. The hon. Baronet approached this question in a very reasonable spirit, and seemed anxious to bring it to a conclusion; but he suggested no means by which the Local Government Board could divest themselves of the duties placed upon them by the Act. The Local Government Board are bound to give the increase if they believe that there is an increase of work. The hon. Baronet seemed to say that the Local Government Board should have taken into account the integrity of the officers in the discharge of their duty; but all that they can gather from the result of the appeal to the courts is that
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    they are not to take that into account. The hon. Baronet was aware that a Provisional Order had already been passed which enabled the duties of these officers to be reduced—[An IRISH MEMBER: And increased also]—and that instead of attending four meetings they need only attend two. Although my interpretation of an Act of Parliament has no authority, I should hold that if such a reduction took place it would then be competent to the Local Government Board to reduce the salary again, because the diminution of work would be "by and in pursuance of this Act." This only ought to be added, that if they reduce the amount of work which the officer executed below that which he had done before, then they would have to give him a lump sum in compensation for the amount of work which had been abolished. I do not think that there should be any great difficulty in arriving at a solution of the matter, and I believe that under the law as amended by the Provisional Order Bill substantial justice can be done to all the parties. No Act of the kind has ever been passed without the introduction of such a provision. The salaries of the old officials had to be safeguarded; it did not matter whether they worked hard or not, and the only means by which the old salaries could be kept safe was by the introduction of such a provision into the Act. But the Act still leaves room to pursue a more economical course.
    The hon. Baronet went on to deal with the nursing Order. I do not know whether the Committee is aware of it, but in some parts of Ireland, not from inhumanity, but from a want of a knowledge of recent developments in nursing, great hardship has been inflicted on the sick poor. The Local Government Board found themselves face to face with this position, that in some parts of Ireland the sick poor were really abominably treated. There were cases in which fractures of the thigh and bed sores remained undiscovered; there was another case in which forty-four persons, including thirty lunatics, were looked after by one woman, who was not a properly trained nurse. We are bound to give the sick poor proper attention. Who is responsible in Ireland for seeing that that is done? In the last resort, the

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    Local Government Board. There is not a shadow of a doubt about it. Under Act of Parliament the Local Government Board are the direct successors of the old Poor Law Commissioners, and are vested with the duty of seeing that the sick poor are properly attended to. If a board of guardians failed to give proper attention in the matter, undoubtedly the Poor Law Commissioners had power to intervene, and that power is now vested in the Local Government Board. It is not a sound policy to be always dissolving popularly-elected boards, and when a much less drastic course would meet the object in view, that less drastic course ought to be adopted. We endeavoured to adopt it in an Order issued on 4th February of this year. In that Order we asserted the right inherent in us under the Act of 1872, and earlier Acts, to declare that certain qualifications were needed in the persons appointed to look after the nursing of the sick poor—that the nurse should have served a certain time in a regular hospital, that there should be a qualified assistant to the nurse, and that the pauper inmates should not be used for nursing the aged and sick. These were all reasonable proposals which it was our duty to make and to enforce if need be. When that Order was brought out it was challenged, and I admit that it was too widely drawn. Whereas our whole purpose was confined to seeing that the sick poor were properly nursed, the Order was so drawn as to possibly indicate interference with other officers. But it was never so intended for one moment. Although we are so often criticised I was not surprised to find that that Order was hailed with a great deal of approval in many parts of Ireland—in many places where the Local Government Board rarely received any support. That Order was referred to the Privy Council and the Privy Council quashed it on the ground that it went too far, and it was enjoined on the Local Government Board to bring up another general Order which should be obviously and directly confined to nursing and nothing else. We were advised by all parties in Ireland to take that course. We took it, and issued another Order on 5th July, not at all in a peremptory or arrogant spirit, and on 26th July we followed it up with
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    a circular, to which no exception could possibly be taken, explaining why it had been necessary to discipline to take that course. The circular concluded with the two following paragraphs—
    "The object of the Board in issuing this Order is mainly for the purpose of enabling most desirable and necessary improvements to be made in the nursing staffs of workhouse infirmaries and hospitals, and the Local Government Board hope that each board of guardians will take this opportunity of very carefully considering, in consultation with their medical officer, the arrangements for the treatment, nursing, and attendance in the sick, lying-in, and infant wards of their workhouse. The Board suggests the guardians should ask their medical officer to furnish them with a report on the subject, and that they should thereafter fix a day for the consideration of his report. The Board would also be obliged if the guardians would cause them to be furnished with the information indicated in the accompanying form of Return and Report to be filled up by the medical officer, who would get any facts or figures he may require for the purpose from the clerk of the union or the master of the workhouse."
    That circular was really conceived in a spirit which ought not to be criticised in the Committee. We had to issue the Order, and we accompanied it with the circular conceived in that tone, and I am surprised that the hon. Baronet should have taken exception to it. As the Irish Times has been quoted, perhaps I may quote an extract from the Freeman's Journal, which rarely supports the Government. The Freeman's Journal comment is as follows—
    "The Local Government Board made an overwhelming case in favour of a drastic improvement in the treatment of the sick poor in several workhouses. A most painful impression was produced on the public mind by the revelations. Several of the hospitals described were not merely understaffed, but equipped in such a fashion as to make the treatment of the sick and the infirm poor in them a disgrace to those responsible."
    Finally, the Freeman's Journal expresses the hope that no member of a Nationalist body will be found to discountenance the action of the Board.
    MR. CULLINAN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to include in his quotation the fact that this reference was to the north of Ireland, and that the south of Ireland was not concerned at all?
    MR. WYNDHAM: I cannot quite accept that view. There have been

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    cases in the north of Ireland which filled me with very great regret, and the members from the north of Ireland have been most active in bringing the matter to my attention; the hon. Member for South Belfast has frequently asked questions in the House, and only yesterday or the day before asked me to take the most drastic, measures possible to see that the Order was carried out, in order to bring a board of guardians to a sense of their duty. But surely in such a matter it is a pity to talk of questions of north and south; and since the Local Government Board are so fortunate as not to be seriously criticised in respect of this action, I think I might appeal to hon. members from all parts of Ireland to support the Board in its efforts to relieve the sick poor from danger, and from circumstances which are painful even to think of.
    The hon. Member for Mid Cork dealt with the question of labourers' cottages in Ireland. He certainly treated the subject with great earnestness and sincerity of purpose, which must have been obvious to all who listened to him, but his criticism was not of the Local Government Board, but the Acts of Parliament that did not make sufficient provision for the housing of labourers in Ireland. He urged the Government to include fishermen and rural tradesmen. Those are arguments which might properly be brought forward if we were debating the question of the housing of the working classes, but on the Estimates all I can say is that the Local Government Board does its best to administer properly the Acts dealing with the matter passed by Parliament. Those Acts bind us down to supply cottages sufficient for the number of agricultural labourers who are needed in a particular district. Hon. members from Ireland seem to think that those Acts authorise the housing of all people who live in a district, and who are not rich enough to provide cottages for themselves. Some of the arguments used led me to think that that must be the view of hon. members. That is not the case. The Local Government Board can only pass a scheme if it is proved that the labourers who are to be housed are needed in the locality, and that there is a demand for the amount of labour which they can supply; but many of the schemes submitted embraced proposals
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    to house numbers of persons who are not agricultural labourers, and more than are needed in the locality, ignoring the rights of other persons whose rights the Local Government Board are bound to protect. We cannot plant a house down wherever we please in Ireland, or in any other place. If we attempted a short cut in that direction it is evident there would be a long correspondence with the Department which had the charge of seeing that the Act was properly carried out. The blame in this matter does not rest with the Local Government Board. I can assure hon. members that schemes come before the Board which are put forward in all good faith by the rural council, but are not put forward in good faith by all ratepayers who supply that council with evidence, and the evidence in regard to them is oftentimes very unsatisfactory. I can truly say that the Government have always taken an interest in all questions relating to the housing of the working classes whether in Ireland or England, and if the time comes for dealing with the question again in Ireland, I think it very probable that some further consideration will be given to some of the classes who cannot be accurately described as agricultural labourers. It may be the case, and I think it is so in Ireland, that the small tradesman has as good a claim to the consideration of Parliament in regard to housing as the artisan in London. But that can only be dealt with by legislation, and cannot be done, and ought not to be done, by a public Department, straining the existing Acts. The hon. Member for North Antrim suggested the appointment of inspectors for labourers' cottages, but that would add to the cost of administration, and already the expenses are heavy enough. I think we ought to make the best of the machine as it is, without adding any more wheels to it. The hon. Member for South Tipperary's points have been answered in the replies which I have made to other members, but I think he will gather from me that I draw an absolute distinction between existing officers and officers to be appointed in the future. In that case a great part of the responsibility must lie, as I have said, with the local bodies, and not with the Local Government Board.
    MR. CLANCYsaid he did not think anyone could find fault with the remarks of the Chief Secretary, who had replied to the discussion in a spirit which had not always been evinced by gentlemen holding his office. His speech alone, to say nothing of the other speeches which had been delivered, showed what a calamity it would have been if the Vote had been closured without an opportunity of discussing it. A number of important questions had been raised, and the right hon. Gentleman had dealt with them not only in a considerate spirit, but as important subjects deserving of public debate. He desired now to refer to a matter relating to county Dublin—not so much because he represented that county as that it represented a tendency and habit on the part of the Local Government Board which it was the duty of the Chief Secretary to repress. Under Section 71 of the Local Government Act it was provided that the financial relations between urban districts and the rest of the county in which they were situated might be revised every fifteen years after the passing of the Act of 1898, or of the Local Act under which these suburban districts were created. The section also provided that this revision was to be commenced and undertaken only when any of the councils concerned applied for it to be undertaken. It was a very curious thing that in the case of county Dublin, which contained nine of these townships, the initiative in the matter seemed to have been taken by the Local Government Board themselves. Not only that, but they had actually proceeded, in the face of the Act of Parliament, to make up their minds upon a question which had to be judicially determined, and which, according to the Act of Parliament, ought not to be determined without a previous inquiry. In November last, without any previous notice, without any inquiry having been made, without any application so far as the county council was concerned or aware, the following letter was sprung upon the Dublin County Council—
    "Local Government Board, Dublin,
    "28th November, 1900.
    "Sir,—I am directed by the Local Government Board for Ireland to forward, for the information
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    of the county council, the accompanying list of county-at-large charges from contributions to which the Board consider urban districts should be exempted, subject to variations defined in Local Acts; and I am to state that the Board propose to issue orders giving effect to these exemptions.
    "I am, Sir, your obedient servant,
    (Signed) "H M. SWAINE, Secretary."
    He really did not think the Chief Secretary would defend a proceeding of that kind. The Act of Parliament prescribed what should be done and the course to be followed. In this case the townships of Rathmines and Pembroke—for he had not the least hesitation in putting his finger on those two townships—were probably up to some nasty trick, and he had no doubt they went to the Local Government Board in a hole-and-corner way, and induced them, in defiance of the Act of Parliament, to issue this disgraceful letter. It was true no steps had been taken in pursuance of that letter, but the right hon. Gentleman had put into the new Local Government Bill a clause which would enable him to proceed. The action of the Local Government Board in this matter should be viewed with great suspicion, and the Chief Secretary ought to support the county council as against the suburban authorities, which sought in almost every instance to make little of the county body in which they could no longer have any controlling power. The township of Rathmines, especially, was a Tory district, the only completely Tory district in county Dublin, and because it could not have a majority in the county council it wanted to set up for itself as an independent body. It was able to go behind the back of the county council to get the Local Government Board to write that letter. If any large proportion of the 3,000 letters which the Chief Secretary had recently said the Board had to write every week were anything like the one to which he had referred, they might very well be dispensed with. He gave the right hon. Gentleman warning that, as far as he was concerned, he would oppose to the utmost the retention in the Local Government Bill of the clause of which he had spoken, the only object of which was to perpetrate an injustice and to anticipate the time at which the House had agreed this revision should be made on the passing of the Local

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    Government Act; and he should endeavour to persuade the House to stick to the bargain deliberately made when the townships were made and the Local Government Act passed in its present shape. With regard to the debate which had taken place, he agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the Orders in Council and the Orders of the Board were responsible largely for the increased expenditure. He would point out, however, that those orders were the right hon. Gentleman's own handiwork, or of the Government to which he belonged. No doubt many of the processes which cost so much money were necessary under the Orders, but the Orders might have been so drawn that many of the processes would be unnecessary and the expense saved. As to the general question of labourers' cottages, he admitted that as the law at present stood great delay was necessarily occasioned. In 1896 a few Irish members endeavoured to get the law so amended that those delays would be completely avoided. The right hon. Gentleman had forgotten that some of the delay was owing to the Local Government Board itself. Most unaccountable delays had taken place in holding inspections and giving the results of inquiries to the public. He commended to the notice of the Chief Secretary the action of one of his predecessors, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Manchester. That right hon. gentleman wanted to open a light railway and to set the people to work on it in Connaught. If he had waited to comply with the law, the whole winter would have passed without a single penny being expended for the purpose of keeping the peeple alive by giving them employment. What did he do? He said to the Local Government Board, "Go in and take possession of the land; put in your labourers; and make the railway—no matter what the law says." That was a case of emergency.
    MR. WYNDHAM: Hear, hear.
    MR. CLANCY: Certainly. But surely there were cases of emergency under the Labourers Act, and the right hon. Gentleman ought to have no hesitation in such cases in following the precedent set up by his predecessor. With regard to court-houses, it was most unfortunate
    122
    that an Amendment proposed by the Nationalist members to put the control of these buildings in the hands of the popular bodies about to be set up was not adopted. No injustice or danger to the administration of the law would have been involved, whereas now there were perpetual rows all over Ireland as to the use of the court-houses. He sincerely hoped for the sake of the county that the Chief Secretary would take heart of grace in these matters, and make up his mind to settle these questions, which could be settled in a reasonable manner to the satisfaction of everybody.
    MR. JAMES O'CONNORreferred to the circumstances connected with two inquiries held at Shillelagh some time ago by Dr. Flynn, a Local Government Board inspector. The local medical officer of health, Dr. Bolster, made charges of negligence against the local nurse, named Joyce, and it was also alleged that she had taken a fee from a patient. The matter was thoroughly investigated by the guardians, who decided that the charges of negligence were not proved; while, in regard to the charge of taking a fee, it appeared that nurse Joyce had simply received three shillings for car hire. By some means or other Dr. Bolster induced the Local Government Board to order a new inquiry.
    MR. CREAN: Called attention to the fact that there were not forty members present.
    *THE CHAIRMAN: No motion for a count can be made on the last day of Supply.
    MR. JAMES O'CONNOR (continuing)said that in response to a request from the guardians, nurse Joyce sent in a list of her witnesses, thirty-four in number, and Dr. Bolster sent in the names of sixteen persons to give evidence on his side. When the inquiry opened, on 5th September, counsel appearing for nurse Joyce objected to proceeding, because none of her witnesses had been summoned. The objection was allowed, and it was agreed that the inquiry should be resumed at Tinahely, the district in which both the doctor and

    123
    the nurse resided. Notwithstanding the fact that permission had been obtained for the use of the Town Hall at Tinahely, the Local Government Board inspector on 20th December, without giving any explanation, resumed the inquiry at Shillelagh. Again none of nurse Joyce's witnesses had been summoned, the excuse being that the doctor had privately examined them, and found they bad no material evidence to give. It was very strange that a medical man should be permitted to give a legal opinion of that sort. On 11th March, in reply to a question, the Chief Secretary stated that eight witnesses were summoned on behalf of the nurse, seven of whom were examined, while nine were summoned, and six examined on behalf of the doctor. Immediately on the publication of that statement he received a communication from the Shillelagh guardians saying the right hon. Gentleman's information was absolutely incorrect. He therefore asked another question of the Chief Secretary, to which the reply was that eight witnesses were summoned on behalf of nurse Joyce, that four were examined, and that four either did not appear or left the court before they were examined. That was a very vague assertion to come from a responsible Minister. From whom did he get the information, on 11th March, which he contradicted in his statement of 18th March? What was the effect with regard to the four witnesses who were examined? He asked the Chief Secretary how many witnesses were examined on behalf of the nurse, and he said eight. That led him to infer that they were favourable witnesses. He had since discovered that not a solitary one of those four witnesses was on the nurse's side. Three of those witnesses were not summoned witnesses, and had no knowledge of the facts of the statement in dispute, and they only gave evidence as to character. Why did Dr. Flynn not summon this woman's witnesses? After the inquiry the Local Government Board came to the conclusion that nurse Joyce had been guilty of negligence, and they called upon the guardians to request her to sand in her resignation. As it was considered to be a one-sided and a partial trial, the guardians declined to call upon the nurse to resign. Then the
    124
    Local Government Board sent down an order compelling the Board to discharge this nurse. Naturally there was a great deal of irritation on the board in consequence of the way Dr. Flynn had conducted this case, and they could not understand, in view of all the details of the case, why the Local Government Board should accept Dr. Flynn's version, and order the resignation of this poor woman. It might be asked what motive Dr. Flynn had for trumping up the charges against Mrs. Joyce. Not a word had been uttered against her skill as a nurse, in one case Dr. Flynn attributed the calling in of another doctor to one of his patients to Mrs. Joyce, and therefore he was her enemy. This doctor once stated that if the board elected this woman to his district she would not be there very long. He got Dr. Flynn to take his part, and they got her out of her employment. Dr. Flynn in one inquiry got the Local Government Board into a very awkward position.
    The next case was that in regard to Dr. Bolster, and the guardians, after investigating the charges made, came to the conclusion that Dr. Bolster had been negligent. Dr. Flynn came down again, and the Local Government Board reversed the decision of the board of guardians. He would only refer to one charge, and that was with regard to Michael Doyle, who was apprenticed to Mr. Murphy. The doctor attended this boy at seven o'clock in the evening and gave him a gargle. Mr. Murphy stated that the boy was dangerously ill, and Dr. Bolster took the boy's temperature, but he made no note of it, and simply said that the boy was suffering from a skin eruption which was not contagious. At 10 o'clock at night this boy's employer packed him off to his own home, seven Irish miles away, and he was put to bed there along with another boy. Dr. King, who was called in to attend the boy, immediately declared the case to be one of scarlatina of a moderately severe type. In the infirmary the boy was examined by another doctor, who also declared that the boy was suffering from scarlatina. It might be asked why this boy was sent away at all. The reason was that Mr. Murphy was Dr. Bolster's patient, and it was stated that the doctor favoured his case by sending the boy away.

    125
    He held that the charges made against Dr. Bolster were not borne out by the evidence, and the board of guardians were naturally irritated that the Local Government Board should fly in the face of the local authority. There was a general feeling that the Local Government Board were hostile to the local bodies. Dr. Bolster was offensive and insulting to the guardians, and they had not been able to do anything with him since the Local Government Board came into existence. The unfortunate nurse whose case had been referred to lost her employment on account of the personal hostility of the doctor. He urged that one impartial inquiry should be held by a Local Government Board inspector who had not the unhappy knack of Dr. Flynn of getting the Board into hot water wherever he made an inquiry.
    MR. FIELDsaid he recognised the sympathetic tone of the speech of the Chief Secretary. The right hon. Gentleman was the representative in this House of the Local Government Board, and it was his duty to bring that Board into close relations with the local authorities. He asked the right hon. Gentleman and his legal adviser the Attorney General how it was that in Ireland there was so much friction between the Local Government Board and the local authorities, while in England there was hardly any friction. He did not wish to go into any small points which would detain the House, but he could mention many cases to illustrate the nature of the friction to which he referred. He would, however, take the broad basis of the working of the Local Government Act as his theme. Why was it that the two institutions, which were supposed to be similar, worked in such different directions in England and Ireland? He would tell the right hon. Gentleman the reason. In Ireland, unfortunately, they were not governed in a constitutional manner. They were supposed to be under a constitutional regime, but in practice constitutionalism was absent. In England the heads of Government departments conferred with men who were recognised as being in sympathy with popular feeling in regard to matters of administration, but that
    126
    was not done in Ireland, where the Local Government Board had constituted themselves an Irish Parliament. They had done it in the case of Wexford with regard to salaries, and they had done it in the matters to which the hon. Member for North Dublin had called attention that evening. The result was that they had nothing but friction, annoyance, difference of opinion, dissension, and obstruction between the Local Government Board officials and the county councils and the district councils of Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman was not responsible for this state of things, but the permanent officials; he did not care whether they were under a Tory or a Liberal Government. If they in Ireland were trusted with local government, they ought to be competent to fulfil the functions with which they had been endowed. He quite agreed with the opinion that until the people were accustomed to the discharge of the duties with which they had been entrusted there would be a certain amount of friction between the local bodies and the Local Government Board. But the Local Government Board consisted of two or three highly-paid officials, not elected, and out of sympathy with the people. Some hon. Gentlemen opposite seemed to think that the people of Ireland ought to obey the behests of the Local Government Board without murmur. If the hon. Gentleman would only convey to the members of the Local Government Board that when there was a difference of opinion between the county, urban, or district councils and these officials of the Local Government Board, a conference should he held of both sides, a mutual agreement might be arrived at without involving friction and litigation. The Local Government Board and the governing bodies ought not to be constantly in collision, but acting in co-operation with each other. [Laughter.] He was quite serious in this matter. He had had many interviews with Sir Henry Robinson in regard to many questions, and he found him a most cultured, patient, and efficient official. He had frequently managed to change that gentleman's opinion, and that was the reason why he made the suggestion. [Cries of "Oh, oh!"] Would anyone say that in matters of public business he

    127
    should not go to a public official and ask for a favour if he thought it was just and right? Would anyone say that they ought to cultivate friction instead of co-operation, if the interests of the people were to be served? [Cries of "Oh, oh!"] If he thought that he was offending against the canons of the Irish party he would not make that declaration, and therefore he had made his suggestion quite seriously. At any rate, he thought that a great deal of friction had been unnecessarily created by the fact that certain officials of the Local Government Board appeared to think that they had only to make a suggestion, and that suggestion should therefore be carried out. The idea was taking root amongst a great section of the people of Ireland that the design of the Local Government Board in that country was to increase taxation, and to take out of the hands of the local governing bodies the function of legislation which properly belonged to them. He maintained that no more dangerous course could be taken by the right hon. Gentleman and other responsible authorities in Ireland than to bring themselves into conflict and friction with the duly elected representatives of the people. [Cries of "Oh, oh!"] They who represented constitutionalism—[Laughter from the Ministerial Benches.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite might laugh. There were a large number of people on the opposite side of the House who did not seem to believe in constitutionalism, and the attitude of these gentlemen showed that when the Irish members discussed these questions in moderate language they received no encouragement. What was the use of passing admittedly good laws in the British House of Commons and handing them over to be administered by a select clique of permanent officials in Ireland? They all knew that bad laws well administered were frequently better for a country than good laws badly administered. What they wanted was good laws well administered. A certain small section on the Local Government Board appeared to have made up their minds that they were altogether irresponsible to the Irish people, that they could do what they liked, and that when the Chief Secretary came over to Ireland they could persuade him that what they did was for the good
    128
    of Ireland. The consequence was, that these large schemes, passed for the good of Ireland, had been practically nullified. He was a member of the Dublin County Council and the Blackrock District Council, and he spoke from personal knowledge of the subject which he had brought before the Committee.
    MR. RENTOULsaid he had had experience in connection with the Local Government Board in Ireland, and he thought that any intelligent foreigner who had been listening to the debate must have come to the conclusion that it was the most perfect of all boards in the world, because in all the speeches that had been delivered not one point of any sort had been made against the Board. The hon. Member who had just sat down had told the Committee that he was a member of the Dublin County Council and of the Blackrock District Council, and that he could say a great deal against the Local Government Board, but he had not given a single instance of complaint substantiated by details.
    MR. FIELDsaid that the complaint generally was on the other side. He had any number of instances, and if the hon. Member and the Committee liked he could keep them for another two hours speaking about them.
    MR. RENTOULsaid he had enjoyed the speech of the hon. Member, because of the absence of details and otherwise because of its pungency. Very serious complaints had been made against the Local Government Board, but they were really attacks on the law. The law might be all wrong; but it was not for a Committee of this House to correct the law, but for the House itself to pass an Act to amend it. The statement had been made that the Local Government Board was hostile to the newly-created local bodies; but as these bodies had been created by the Unionist Government, it was not likely that a board presided over by the present Chief Secretary would desire to upset these bodies in their work. Of course, at the beginning of their work some interference had been made with the county councils in every part of Ireland, and that had created some

    129
    friction. He himself had to bring two complaints against the Local Government Board about their unnecessary interference with the county council of county Down, but when the facts had all been gone into it was found that they did not warrant the charge of undue interference. Now that the work of local government administration was becoming known the interference of the Local Government Board was becoming less and less necessary, and they all said that the less interference the better. Reference had been made to the control which the high sheriff exercised over the court-houses maintained by the county councils. Undoubtedly that was likely to create friction, as the sheriff was changed from year to year; and though many sheriff's got on splendidly with the county councils, the evil action of one sheriff might wipe out the kindly treatment of a dozen different sheriffs. The sheriff represented largely the old grand jury system which had passed away, and consequently it was natural that the representatives of a new system should look upon him with a little jealousy, and vice versa. That, however, was not confined to Ireland, for he remembered the jealousy between the London County Council and the members of the old Metropolitan Board of Works. There was nothing of that friction in county Down, because it so happened, fortunately for them there, that the sheriff was also chairman of the county council, and everything worked smoothly. He admitted that the Labourers Acts had fallen dead in many parts of Ireland, and undoubtedly some change would have to be made; but that was a matter, not for the Local Government Board, but for direct legislation by this House.
    *MR. MURPHYsaid he regretted that he had time only to refer to two points. The hon. and learned Gentleman who had just sat down had essayed to whitewash the Local Government Board, but in doing so he had tried an impossible task. Everybody who knew anything about the Local Government Board must be convinced that not only were they extravagant and arrogant, but they were totally ignorant of the affairs of the Irish people. No doubt the hon. Member looked forward
    130
    with hope to a seat on some such board as compensation for the loss of his seat in the House, which fact accounted for his readiness to speak as he had just done. The conduct of Dr. Flynn, while he was vice-guardian at Killarney, was illustrative of the whole conduct of the officers of the Local Government Board. Dr. Flynn, while he was in Killarney, had occasion to appoint a clerk to the union, and out of the whole of the candidates who applied for that position it was an astonishing fact that the one who was successful in getting the appointment was a gentleman who was able to obtain the influence of Professor Butcher, the cousin of the President of the Board of Trade, who was then Chief Secretary for Ireland. Dr. Flynn had since been promoted by the Local Government Board, though he had also, while vice-guardian, promoted to the mastership of one of the largest workhouses in Ireland a man who for thirty years had been engaged in the police force, who was utterly unqualified for the position, and who had to resign owing to incompetency and drunkenness within two years. There was also a rate collector who during the time that Dr. Flynn was in Killarney was using the guardians' money for his own private purposes. A sum of £1,400 had been, collected by this rate collector, and not accounted for; and Dr. Flynn, although it had been brought to his own personal knowledge, had never called public attention to it, for the reason that he wanted to conceal the fact that it had taken place while he was there acting as vice-guardian. He submitted that Dr. Flynn's conduct in the past utterly unfitted him for occupying any position under the Local Government Board, and that instead of being promoted he ought to have been dismissed. Colonel Kirkwood was another officer of the Board whose duty was to inquire into the schemes for the erection of labourers' cottages, amongst other things. He knew nothing whatever of the duties appertaining to the office. He probably got a military title on account of talking of guns and drums and wounds in a militia mess-room, and not because he ever effected a "masterly retreat,"

    131
    evacuated a Spion Kop, or hoisted a white flag. Those two officials were a sample of all the officials of the Local Government Board, and for these reasons and others he objected to the personnel of the Board, because his experience of it was that it was quite unsuited for the government of the Irish people. It was arrogant, unrepresentative, and uninformed. In Kerry they had personal experience of a county council, the members of which had as great ability to discharge their duties as any hon. Member of this House had to discharge his. That council had to consider on one occasion the increase of the salary of its secretary. This man was only entitled to £500, but so artfully had he piled up the various sums that he had to receive that the Local Government Board fixed his salary at £1,000. That man had since resigned, and was now in receipt of a pension of a considerable sum, and was not prevented from acting as a land agent, and the county council had been able to find a successor who was infinitely more capable at a salary of £400 a year. For these reasons and many others which time did not allow him to state he objected to the Vote,
    and as the guillotine was about to fall he begged to move a reduction of £100.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That a sum, not exceeding £40,082, be granted for the said Service."—(Mr. Murphy.)
    MR. DALYsaid with regard to the question of the erection of labourers' cottages there were three courses which would considerably facilitate the erection of labourers' cottages. One was that in the case of an appeal against the representation the appellant should pay the costs. He knew a great many landlords and agents in Ireland who would never appeal but for the fact that they knew that they would not have to pay the costs, but that they would come out of the pockets of the ratepayers.
    It being Ten of the clock, the CHAIRMAN, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 7th of August, proceeded to put the Questions necessary to dispose of the Vote under consideration.
    Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 141; Noes, 237. (Division List No. 420)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Joyce, Michael

    Ambrose, Robert

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Asher, Alexander

    Delany, William

    Kennedy, Patrick James

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Dillon, John

    Lambert, George

    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

    Doogan, P. C.

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Duffy, William J.

    Leamy, Edmund

    Bell, Richard

    Elibank, Master of

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Boland, John

    Emmott, Alfred

    Levy, Maurice

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst'ne

    Lough, Thomas

    Boyle, James

    Fenwick, Charles

    Lundon, W.

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Field, William

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Brigg, John

    Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Flynn, James Christopher

    M'Dermott, Patrick

    Burns, John

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    M'Fadden, Edward

    Burt, Thomas

    Gilhooly, James

    M'Govern, T.

    Caine, William Sproston

    Grant, Corrie

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Caldwell, James

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarth'n

    Cameron, Robert

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Hammond, John

    Moss, Samuel

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Harwood, George

    Murnaghan, George

    Cawley, Frederick

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Murphy, John

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Hayne, Rt Hon. Charles Seale-

    Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

    Clancy, John Joseph

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Nolan, J. (Louth, South)

    Cogan, Denis J.

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Norman, Henry

    Colville, John

    Holland, William Henry

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Horniman, Frederick John

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Crean, Eugene

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

    Crombie, John William

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Cullinan, J.

    Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Daly, James

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Jordan, Jeremiah

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Wallace, Robert

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Roche, John

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    O'Dowd, John

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    Samuel S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Weir, James Galloway

    O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    O'Malley, William

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    O'Mara, James

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    O'Shee, James John

    Sullivan, Donald

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Partington, Oswald

    Taylor, Theodore Cooke

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Tennant, Harold John

    Woodehouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

    Reddy, M.

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    TELLERS FOR AYES—Sir Thomas Esmond and Captain Donelan.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'n N

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Tomkinson, James

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Ure, Alexander

    NOES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.)

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Henderson, Alexander

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

    Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

    Arnold Forster, Hugh O.

    Denny, Colonel

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Arrol, Sir William

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles

    Hornby, Sir William Henry

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Hoult, Joseph

    Balcarres, Lord

    Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry C.

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds)

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Man'cr

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Finch, George H.

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Bignold, Arthur

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Kimber, Henry

    Bigwood, James

    Firbank, Joseph Thomas

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick W.

    Bill, Charles

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Law, Andrew Bonar

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Fison, Frederick William

    Lawson, John Grant

    Bond, Edward

    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

    Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Flower, Ernest

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

    Forster, Henry William

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Brassey, Albert

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W)

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.)

    Fowler, Right Hn. Sir Henry

    Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

    Bull, William James

    Gardner, Ernest

    Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.)

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Garfit, William

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Lowe, Francis William

    Butcher, John George

    Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

    Carlile, William Walter

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'mlets

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

    Gordon Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Sip

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

    Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

    Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

    Cayzer, Sir Charles William

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Goschen, Hn. George Joachim

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

    Chapman, Edward

    Gretton, John

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Charrington, Spencer

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Groves, James Grimble

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Hain, Edward

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Hall, Edward Marshall

    Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Collings, Rt. Hn. Jesse

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Midd'x

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

    Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Morgan, David J. (W'lthamstow

    134

    135

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

    Renwick George

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford)

    Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Mount, William Arthur

    Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

    Myers, William Henry

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Round, James

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Valentia, Viscount

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Rutherford, John

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Penn, John

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

    Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

    Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Williams, Rt. Hn J Powell- (Birm.

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks., E. R.)

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Purvis, Robert

    Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Pym, C. Guy

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Randles, John S.

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Rankin, Sir James

    Spear, John Ward

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Original Question put.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 246; Noes, 136. (Division List No. 421).
    The CHAIRMAN thereupon, in pursuance of the same Order, put severally the Questions, That the total amount of the Votes outstanding in each Class of the Civil Service Estimates, and the total amount of the Votes outstanding in the Estimates for the Navy, the Army, and the Revenue Departments, be granted for the Services defined in those Classes and Estimates.

    CLASS I.
    2. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,233,715, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for Expenditure on the following Services included in Class I. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1.

    Royal Palaces and Marlborough House

    84,600

    2.

    Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens

    71,500

    3A.

    Gladstone Monument

    1,100

    4.

    Miscellaneous Legal Buildings, Great Britain

    32,000

    5.

    Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

    22,000

    6.

    Diplomatic and Consular Buildings

    25,000

    7.

    Revenue Buildings

    197,000

    8.

    Public Buildings, Great Britain

    209,500

    9.

    Surveys of the United Kingdom

    130,159

    10.

    Harbours under the Board of Trade

    3,478

    11.

    Peterhead Harbour

    17,000

    12.

    Rates on Government Property

    264,223

    £

    13.

    Public Works and Buildings, Ireland

    132,667

    14.

    Railways, Ireland

    43,478

    £1,223,715

    MR. DILLON: I rise to a point of order. I want to ask you whether, by the words of the rule, you are not required when putting the Question to define the services for which we are asked to grant the money. The words are—
    "The total amounts of the Votes outstanding in that class to be granted for services as defined in the class."
    *THE CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Member will refer to the Estimates circulated, he will find those services defined.
    MR. DILLON: My point is this: that it is not the custom when a Question is put to refer us to a printed Paper which has been placed in our hands. The custom is to put the Question fully from the Chair.
    *THE CHAIRMAN: That is so in the ordinary case, but this is an exceptional procedure.
    MR. DILLON: That is not stated in the rule.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 244; Noes, 142. (Division List No. 422).

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Fison, Frederick William

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

    Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Chapman, Edward

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Charrington, Spencer

    Flower, Ernest

    Arrol, Sir William

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Forster, Henry William

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Foster, Phillip S. (Warwick, S. W.

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Gardner, Ernest

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Garfit, William

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Gordon, Maj Evans- (TrH'mlets

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Bignold, Arthur

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Bigwood, James

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Bill, Charles

    Denny, Colonel

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    Bond, Edward

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Gretton, John

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Groves, James Grimble

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Hain, Edward

    Brassey, Albert

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Hall, Edward Marshall

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shrop.)

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Bull, William James

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Midd'x

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Butcher, John George

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Carlile, William Walter

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Finch, George H.

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

    Firbank, Joseph Thomas

    Heath, J. (Staffords. N. W.)

    Cayzer, Sir Charles William

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Henderson, Alexander

    Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter

    Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

    Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

    Hogg, Lindsay

    More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Hope, J. F. (Sheff., Brightside)

    Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Hornby, Sir William Henry

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Hoult, Joseph

    Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford)

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Mount, William Arthur

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Hozier, Hon. James H. Cecil

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tynisde

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

    Jackson, Rt. Hon. W. Lawies

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Myers, William Henry

    Spear, John Ward

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Spencer, E. (W. Bromwich)

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    O'Neill, Hon Robert Torrens

    Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

    Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset).

    Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Kimber, Henry

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick W.

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Law, Andrew Bonar

    Penn, John

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Lawson, John Grant

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham)

    Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

    Leigh-Bennett, H. Currie

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S.

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Loder, Gerald W. Erskine

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

    Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.)

    Purvis, Robert

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Pym, C. Guy

    Valentia, Viscount

    Lowe, Francis William

    Randles, John S.

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Shef'eld

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. J. (Kent)

    Rankin, Sir James

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

    Macartney, Rt. Hon. W. G. E.

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und. Lyne

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Renwick, George

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Williams, Rt Hn J Powell- (Birm.

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge)

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

    Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Wilson-Todd, Wm H. (Yorks.)

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Massey Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Round, James

    Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Rutherford, John

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Ambrose, Robert

    Clancy, John Joseph

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Asher, Alexander

    Cogan, Denis J.

    Gilhooly, James

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Colville, John

    Grant, Corrie

    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Bell, Richard

    Crean, Eugene

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Boland, John

    Crombie, John William

    Hammond, John

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Cullinan, J.

    Harwood, George

    Boyle, James

    Daly, James

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Brigg, John

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Delany, William

    Holland, William Henry

    Burns, John

    Dillon, John

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Burt, Thomas

    Doogan, P. C.

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Caine, William Sproston

    Elibank, Master of

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Caldwell, James

    Emmott, Alfred

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Cameron, Robert

    Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

    Jordan, Jeremiah

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Fenwick, Charles

    Joyce, Michael

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Field, William

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Kennedy, Patrick James

    138

    139

    Lambert, George

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R. (Northants

    Leamy, Edmund

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

    Sullivan, Donal

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Taylor, Theodore Cooke

    Levy, Maurice

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Tennant, Harold John

    Lloyd-George, David

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

    Lough, Thomas

    O'Dowd, John

    Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'n N

    Lundon, W.

    O'Keily, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

    Tomkinson, James

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    O'Malley, William

    Ure, Alexander

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    O'Mara, James

    Wallace, Robert

    M'Dermott, Patrick

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    M'Fadden, Edward

    O'Shee, James John

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    M'Govern, T.

    Partington, Oswald

    Weir, James Galloway

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

    Reddy, M.

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Moss, Samuel.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Murnaghan, George

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Murphy, John

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Vilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Huddersf'd

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Roche, John

    Norman, Henry

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, M.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Fison, Frederick William

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    FitzRoy, Hn. Edward Algernon

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

    Arrol, Sir William

    Flower, Ernest

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Asher, Alexander

    Forster, Henry William

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hon. W. F.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Gardner, Ernest

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

    Garfit, William

    Middlemore, John Throgmort'n

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Mildmay, Francs Bingham

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds)

    Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Gordon, Maj Evans- (TrH'mlets

    Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Gore, Hn. G. R. C Ormsby- (Salop

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

    Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Bignold, Arthur

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

    Bigwood, James

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford)

    Bill, Charles

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    Mount, William Arthur

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Bond, Edward

    Gretton, John

    Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Groves, James Grimble

    Myers, William Henry

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

    Hain, Edward

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Brassey, Albert

    Hall, Edward Marshall

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.)

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Bull, William James

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Peel, Hon. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Penn, John

    Butcher, John George

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Carlile, William Walter

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

    Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.)

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Cayzer, Sir Charles William

    Heaton, John Henniker

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Henderson, Alexander

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

    Purvis, Robert

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Pym, C. Guy

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Randles, John S.

    Chapman, Edward

    Hornby, Sir William Henry

    Rankin, Sir James

    Charrington, Spencer

    Hoult, Joseph

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry C.

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies

    Renwick, George

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Jones, David B. (Swansea)

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Kimber, Henry

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick W.

    Round, James

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Law, Andrew Bonar

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Denny, Colonel

    Lawson, John Grant

    Rutherford, John

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Lowe, Francis William

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. Jas. (Kent)

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tyn'sde

    Finch, George H.

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmo'th

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Firbank, Joseph Thomas

    Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

    Spear, John Ward

    142

    143

    Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

    Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Williams, Rt. Hn. J. P. (Birm.)

    Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Valentia, Viscount

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Sh'ffld

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Webb, Col. William George

    Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-Lyne

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    NOES

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

    Hammond, John

    O'Dowd, John

    Ambrose, Robert

    Harwood, George

    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

    Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

    O'Malley, William

    Bell, Richard

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    O'Mara, James

    Boland, John

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Holland, William Henry

    O'Shee, James John

    Boyle, James

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Partington, Oswald

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Brigg, John

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Jordan, Jeremiah

    Reddy, M.

    Burns, John

    Joyce, Michael

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Burt, Thomas

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Caine, William Sproston

    Kennedy, Patrick James

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Caldwell, James

    Lambert, George

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Cameron, Robert

    Layland-Barrett, Francis

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Leamy, Edward

    Roche, John

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Cawley, Frederick

    Levy, Maurice

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Lloyd-George, David

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Clancy, John Joseph

    Lough, Thomas

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Cogan, Denis J.

    Lundon, W.

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Colville, John

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R (Northants

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Crean, Eugene

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Taylor, Theodore Cooke

    Crombie, John William

    M'Dermott, Patrick

    Tennant, Harold John

    Cullinan, J.

    M'Fadden, Edward

    Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

    Daly, James

    M'Govern, T.

    Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

    Dalziel, James Henry

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Tomkinson, James

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

    Ure, Alexander

    Delany, William

    Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport

    Wallace, Robert

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Moss, Samuel

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Dillon, John

    Murnaghan, George

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Doogan, P. C.

    Murphy, John

    Weir, James Galloway

    Duffy, William J.

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Elibank, Master of

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

    White, Patrick (Meath, N.)

    Emmott, Alfred

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

    Norman, Henry

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Fenwick, Charles

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Field, William

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cerk)

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Flynn, James Christopher

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Woodhouse, Sir J T (Hudd'rsfi'd)

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

    Grant, Corrie

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    CLASS II.
    3. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £928,342, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the
    144
    31st day of March, 1902, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included in Class II. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1.

    House of Lords, Offices

    4,761

    2.

    House of Commons, Offices

    13,100

    145

    £

    5.

    Foreign Office

    47,076

    7A.

    Privy Seal Office

    1,920

    8.

    Board of Trade

    132,328

    9.

    Mercantile Marine Services

    65,769

    10.

    Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade

    5

    11.

    Board of Agriculture

    26,094

    13.

    Civil Service Commission

    26,625

    14.

    Exchequer and Audit Department

    38,656

    23.

    Stationery and Printing

    368,037

    24.

    Office of Woods, etc.

    14,014

    26.

    Secret Service

    25,000

    Scotland.

    27.

    Office of Secretary for Scotland

    7,954

    28.

    Fishery Board

    10,545

    29.

    Lunacy Commission

    3,604

    30.

    Registrar General's Office

    5,473

    31.

    Local Government Board

    8,778

    Ireland.

    32.

    Lord Lieutenant's Household

    2,813

    33.

    Chief Secretary's Offices, etc.

    9,676

    34.

    Department of Agriculture

    70,806

    35.

    Charitable Donations and Bequests Office

    963

    37.

    Public Record Office

    3,242

    38.

    Public Works Offices

    19,940

    39.

    Registrar General's Office

    10,278

    40.

    Valuation and Boundary Survey

    10,885

    £928,342

    MR. DILLONsaid that there was nothing in the new rule directing the Chairman to put the question in a different form from that which had been adopted in the past. The practice had been to name the services for which the money was required, and he contended that the Chairman was bound to continue to do so. He had asked for all the services contained in Class II., whereas Votes 3 and 4 had been fully voted.
    *THE CHAIRMAN: I fail to see how I have contravened the rule in any way. The rule directs that I must put the question
    with regard to the total amount of the Votes outstanding in each class.
    MR. DILLONsaid the rule referred to the granting of Votes "for the services defined in the class."
    *THE CHAIRMAN: The services are defined in the class. Then the outstanding Votes in that class are those which have not already been voted. The hon. Member has said that Votes 3 and 4 of Class II. have already been voted. They are not included in the sum proposed to be now voted, because they are not outstanding Votes.
    MR. DILLONsaid there was nothing in the wording of the new rule to authorise an alteration in the method of putting the question.
    *THE CHAIRMAN: This procedure is quite new. I fail to see how I am contravening the rule in any way. If I were to read out each separate Vote, it seems to me I would be contravening the rule. What I have to put is the total Vote.
    DR. AMBROSE: I understood you to say what was your interpretation of the rule. Is it for the Chairman to interpret the rule?
    *THE CHAIRMAN: That is what he is here for.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 250; Noes, 144. (Division List No. 423.)

    CLASS III.
    4. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £1,976,094, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included in Class III, of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    3.

    Supreme Court of Judicature

    182,287

    4.

    Land Registry

    24,193

    5.

    County Courts

    26,906

    6.

    Police, England and Wales

    31,595

    7.

    Prisons, England and the Colonies

    391,713

    8.

    Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain

    121,809

    9.

    Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    26,175

    Scotland.

    £

    10.

    Law Charges and Courts of Law

    54,273

    11.

    Register House, Edinburgh

    27,827

    12.

    Crofters' Commission

    2,990

    Ireland.

    18.

    Land Commission

    83,542

    17.

    County Court Officers, etc.

    64,390

    18.

    Dublin Metropolitan Police

    54,204

    19.

    Royal Irish Constabulary

    755,621

    20.

    Prisons

    70,973

    21.

    Reformatory and Industrial Schools

    54,705

    22.

    Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    2,891

    £1,976,094

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 247; Noes, 138. (Division List No. 424.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Bigwood, James

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Bill, Charles

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich.

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm)

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Bond, Edward

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Chapman, Edward

    Arrol, Sir William

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Charrington, Spencer

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Brassey, Albert

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Balcarres, Lord

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

    Bull, William James

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Butcher, John George

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Carlile, William Walter

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Beach, Rt. Hn Sir Michael Hicks-

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Bignold, Arthur

    Cayzer, Sir Charles William

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Randles, John S.

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    Rankin, Sir James

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Denny, Colonel

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Keswick, William

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Kimber, Henry

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Law, Andrew Bonar

    Renwick, George

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Lawson, John Grant

    Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

    Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

    Round, James

    Finch, George H.

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Rutherford, John

    Firbank, Joseph Thomas

    Lowe, Francis William

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Fison, Frederick William

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th)

    Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Lyttelton, Hn. Alfred

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Flower, Ernest

    Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Forster, Henry William

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.)

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

    Gardner, Ernest

    M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

    Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyneside

    Garfit, William

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn)

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Spear, John Ward

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

    Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich

    Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'mlets

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Gore, Hn. G. R. C Ormsby- (Salop

    Middlemore, John T.

    Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Gretton, John

    Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Groves, James Grimble.

    Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

    Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

    Hain, Edward

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Hall, Edward Marshall

    Mount, William Arthur

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Valentia, Viscount

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield

    Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

    Murray, Charles, J. (Coventry)

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Hanbury, Rt Hon. Robert Wm.

    Myers, William Henry

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Webb, Col. William George

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Parker, Gilbert

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

    Heaton, John Henniker

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Williams, Rt Hn J Powell- (Birm.

    Henderson, Alexander

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

    Penn, John

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.)

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Hornby, Sir William Henry

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Hoult, Joseph

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Purvis, Robert

    Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

    Pym, C. Guy

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Bell, Richard

    Ambrose, Robert

    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

    Boland John

    Asher, Alexander

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    148

    149

    Boyle, James

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

    Brigg, John

    Holland, William Henry

    O'Malley, William

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Horniman, Frederick John

    O'Mara, James

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Burns, John

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    O'Shee, James John

    Burt, Thomas

    Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

    Partington, Oswald

    Caldwell, James

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Cameron, Robert

    Jordan, Jeremiah

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Joyce, Michael

    Reddy, M.

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Cawley, Frederick

    Kennedy, Patrick James

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Channing, Francis Alston

    Lambert, George

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Clancy, John Joseph

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Cogan, Denis J.

    Leamy, Edmund

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Colville, John

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Roche, John

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Levy, Maurice

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Crean, Eugene

    Lloyd-George, David

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitchapel)

    Crombie, John William

    Lough, Thomas

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Cullinan, J.

    Lundon, W.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Daly, James

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    MacNeil, John Cordon Swift

    Sullivan, Donal

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

    M'Dermott, Patrick

    Taylor, Theodore Cooke

    Delany, William

    M'Fadden, Edward

    Tennant, Harold John

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    M'Govern, T.

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Dillon, John

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Doogan, P. C.

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Tomkinson, James

    Duffy, William J.

    Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport

    Ure, Alexander

    Elibank, Master of

    Moss, Samuel

    Wallace, Robert

    Emmott, Alfred

    Murnaghan, George

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    Murphy, John

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Weir, James Galloway

    Fenwick, Charles

    Nolan, Col. John P (Galway, N.

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Field, William

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Norman, Henry

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    Grant, Corrie

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Came and Sir James Woodhouse.

    Hammond, John

    O'Connor, T. P. Liverpool

    Harwood, George

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo S.)

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    O'Dowd, John

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Fison, Frederick William

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

    Arrol, Sir William

    Flower, Ernest

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire),

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Forster, Henry William

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Bagot, Capt. J. Fitzroy

    Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Balcarres, Lord

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

    Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

    Gardner, Ernest

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Garfit, William

    Middlemore, John T.

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Gordon, J. Londonderry, South

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin

    Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'mlets

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. Hicks

    Core, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

    Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

    Bell, Richard

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.)

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

    Bignold, Arthur

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Bigwood, James

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F.

    Bill, Charles

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    Mount, William Arthur

    Bond, Edward

    Gretton, John

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Grahm (Bute

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Groves, James Gribble

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

    Hain, Edward

    Myers, William Henry

    Brassey, Albert

    Hall, Edward Marshall

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Brown, Alex. H. (Shropshire)

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Bull, William James

    Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nderry

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Parker, Gilbert

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Butcher, John George

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Carlile, William Walter

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Penn, John

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir E. H.

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

    Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.)

    Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

    Cayzer, Sir Charles William

    Heaton, John Henniker

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Henderson, Alexander

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm

    Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Chapman, Edward

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Charrington, Spencer

    Hornby, Sir William Henry

    Purvis, Robert

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Hoult, Joseph

    Pym, C. Guy

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Randles, John S.

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

    Rankin, Sir James

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Colomb, Sir John C. Ready

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Renwick, George

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea

    Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Kenyon, Hon Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Keswick, William

    Ritchie, Bt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Law, Andrew Bonar

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Lawson, John Grant

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Denny, Colonel

    Lee, Arthur H. (Hants., Fareh'm

    Round, James

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Rutherford, John

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S)

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Lowe, Francis William

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Finch, George H.

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Firbank, Joseph Thomas

    Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

    Smith, H C (N'rth'umb. Tyn'side

    152

    153

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

    Williams, Rt Hn J Powell- (Birm.

    Spear, John Ward

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Valentia, Viscount

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E H (Sheffield

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Webb, Colonel Wm. George

    Strut, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Weir, James Galloway

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Welby, Sir Charles G. E (Notts.

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

    Grant, Corrie

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Ambrose, Robert

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Asher, Alexander

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Ashton, Thos. Gair

    Hammond, John

    O'Dowd, John

    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

    Harwood, George

    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.

    Boland, John

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    O'Malley, William

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    O'Mara, James

    Boyle, James

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Holland, William Henry

    O'Shee, James John

    Brigg, John

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Partington, Oswald

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Burns, John

    Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

    Reddy, M.

    Burt, Thomas

    Jordon, Jeremiah

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    Caine, William Sproston

    Joyce, Michael

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Caldwell, James

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Cameron, Robert

    Kennedy, Patrick James

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Lambert, George

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Roche, John

    Cawley, Frederick

    Leamy, Edmund

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Clancy, John Joseph

    Levy, Maurice

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Cogan, Denis J.

    Lloyd-George, David

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Colville, John

    Lough, Thomas

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Lundon, W.

    Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants

    Crean, Eugene

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Crombie, John William

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Taylor, Theodore Cooke

    Cullinan, J.

    MacNeill, John Cordon Swift

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Daly, James

    M'Dermott, Patrick

    Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

    Dalziel, James Henry

    M'Fadden, Edward

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    M'Govern, T.

    Tomkinson, James

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Ure, Alexander

    Delany, William

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

    Wallace, Robert

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Dillon, John

    Moss, Samuel

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Doogan, P. C.

    Murnaghan, George

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Duffy, William J.

    Murphy, John

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    Elibank, Master of

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Emmott, Alfred

    Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Fenwick, Charles

    Norman, Henry

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    Field, William

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid)

    Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Hudd'rsfi'd

    Flynn, James Christopher

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Gilhooly, James

    O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

    CLASS IV.
    5. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £208,675, be granted to His Majesty, to defray
    154
    the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for Expenditure in respect of the following

    155
    Services included in Class IV. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    2.

    British Museum

    86,580

    3.

    National Gallery

    7,903

    4.

    National Portrait Gallery

    2,644

    5.

    Wallace Collection

    3,788

    6.

    Scientific Investigation, etc.

    28,154

    7.

    Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales

    75,700

    Ireland.

    £

    11.

    Endowed Schools Commissioners

    520

    12.

    National Gallery

    1,086

    13.

    Queen's Colleges

    2,300

    £208,675

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 247; Noes, 139. (Division List No. 425.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

    Arrol, Sir William

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Balcarres, Lord

    Emmott, Alfred

    Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

    Keswick, William

    Balfour, Rt Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Kimber, Henry

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Finch, George H.

    Law, Andrew Bonar

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Firbank, Joseph Thomas

    Lawson, John Grant

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Fison, Frederick William

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Bignold, Arthur

    Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Bigwood, James

    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

    Bill, Charles

    Flannery, Sir Fortescue

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Flower, Ernest

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

    Bond, Edward

    Forster, Henry William

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

    Lowe, Francis William

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

    Gardner, Ernest

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Brassey, Albert

    Garfit, William

    Lowther, Rt. Hon. James (Kent)

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Bull, William James

    Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Lyttelton, Hn. Alfred

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'mlets

    Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

    Butcher, John George

    Gore, Hn. G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Carlile, William Walter

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Cayzer, Sir Charles William

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingsh.)

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

    Gretton, John

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Chamberlain, J. Austen) Worc'r

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

    Chapman, Edward

    Groves, James Grimble

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Charrington, Spencer

    Hain, Edward

    Middlemore, John T.

    Churchill, Winston Spencer

    Haldane, Richard Burdon

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Hall, Edward Marshall

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Midd'x

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt William

    Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F.

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.)

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbr'dge

    Heaton, John Henniker

    Mount, William Arthur

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Henderson, Alexander

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

    Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Hornby, Sir William Henry

    Myers, William Henry

    Denny, Colonel

    Hoult, Joseph

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    O'Neill, Hn. Robert Torrens

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Parker, Gilbert

    Round, James

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Rutherford, John

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Valentia, Viscount

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H. (Shef'ld

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Webb, Col. William George

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts)

    Purvis, Robert

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-un-Lyne

    Pym, C. Guy

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Randles, John S.

    Smith, A. H. (Hertford, East)

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Rankin, Sir James

    Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tyn'sd

    Williams, Rt. Hn. J. Powell (Birm

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Smith, J. P. (Lanarks.)

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Spear, John Ward

    Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Spencer, E. (W. Bromwich)

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    Stanley, E. Jas. (Somerset)

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Renwick, George

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Ambrose, Robert

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

    Asher, Alexander

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Gilhooly, James

    Norman, Henry

    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

    Grant, Corrie

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

    Bell, Richard

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Boland, John

    Hammond, John

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Harwood, George

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

    Boyle, James

    Hayden, John Patrick

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Brigg, John

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D.

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    O'Dowd, John

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Holland, William Henry

    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    Burns, John

    Horniman, Frederick John

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

    Burt, Thomas

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    O'Malley, William

    Caine, William Sproston

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    O'Mara, James

    Caldwell, James

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Cameron, Robert

    Jordan, Jeremiah

    O'Shee, James John

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Joyce, Michael

    Partington, Oswald

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Cawley, Frederick

    Kennedy, Patrick James

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Lambert, George

    Reddy, M.

    Clancy, John Joseph

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Cogan, Denis J.

    Leamy, Edmund

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Colville, John

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Levy, Maurice

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

    Crean, Eugene

    Lloyd-George, David

    Roche, John

    Crombie, John William

    Lough, Thomas

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Cullinan, J.

    Lundon, W.

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Daly, James

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Delany, William

    M'Dermott, Patrick

    Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (Northants

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    M'Fadden, Edward

    Sullivan, Donal

    Dillon, John

    M'Govern, T.

    Taylor, Theodore Cooke

    Donelan, Captain A.

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Tennant, Harold John

    Doogan, P. C.

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

    Duffy, William J.

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Thompson, Dr. E. C. (M'n'gh'n, N

    Elibank, Master of

    Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    Moss, Samuel

    Tomkinson, James

    Fenwick, Charles

    Murnaghan, George

    Ure, Alexander

    Field, William

    Murphy, John

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    158

    159

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Weir, James Galloway

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Mr. Robson and Mr. Wallace.

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    CLASS V.
    6. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £926,905, be granted to His Majesty to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included in Class V. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    2.

    Uganda, Central and East Africa Protectorates, etc.

    210,049

    3.

    Colonial Services

    308,006

    4.

    Cyprus, Grant in Aid

    1,000

    5.

    Subsidies to Telegraph Companies

    27,850

    7.

    Treasury Chest Fund

    305,000

    8.

    Loan to Wuchang Viceroy

    75,000

    £926,905

    MR. DILLONrose to a point of order. He drew attention to the fact that in this Vote were included two Votes that were not rightly included under the new rule, a Supplementary Vote by way of loan to the Viceroy of Wu-chang and also the Treasury Chest Fund, Votes of a character in respect to which the First Lord of the Treasury gave a pledge two years ago that they should not be included in the general closure.
    *THE CHAIRMAN: A pledge given by a Minister does not in any way bind me. I do not think the hon. Member has raised his point of order on a sure foundation. The rule is—
    "Provided always that any additional Estimate for any new service or matter not included in the original Estimate of the year shall be submitted for consideration two clear days before the Committee is closed."
    I would like not to give an opinion with regard to the Treasury Chest Fund, but the loan to the Wu-chang Viceroy is an additional Estimate not included in the original Estimate, and then arose the question in my mind, Has it been submitted for consideration in Committee of Supply? I confess for some time I had considerable doubt, but I may say I have consulted the Speaker on the matter, and he and I are now agreed that the Vote was submitted for consideration
    160
    when it was put down as the second Vote on the Paper. "Submitted for consideration" does not mean "proposed from the Chair." That is the view of the Speaker, and that view I entirely share. "Proposed from the Chair" is, of course, a well-known expression, which has been frequently used in the Standing Orders and Rules of this House, but "submitted for consideration" the Speaker holds, and I hold, is a condition that has been fulfilled by the matter being made an effective Supply Vote on a particular day more than two days before the Committee closed.
    MR. DILLONappealed to the First Lord of the Treasury to say whether that was an observance of the pledge which he had given to the House upon a former occasion.
    *THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is entitled to address me on a point of order, but no debate is permitted. I say that both last year and the year before there are precedents in this matter. Last year there was a Vote for Local Taxation (Ireland), a new Vote, and an additional Estimate for a new matter not in the original Estimate. It was put down for consideration in Supply two days before the closure day, but it was not discussed. The year before—1899—exactly the same thing occurred with a Vote for the Paris Exhibition. These are two precedents on all fours with the present Votes as to which the hon. Member has raised the point of order. In the face of these two precedents, I hold that the condition has been complied with in this case.
    MR. DILLONsubmitted that this point was never raised before, and if that was so, he contended that the cases which the Chairman had quoted had no bearing on the point of order. He respectfully submitted to the Chairman that it was not in accordance with either the letter ro the spirit of the rule that a Vote which had never been submitted to the Committee and which the Committee of Supply had had no opportunity whatever of discussing should be included

    161
    under the closure rule in the face of the proviso he had quoted. He intended to take an early opportunity of reminding the First Lord of the Treasury of his pledge.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL, upon a point of order, contended that "submitted for consideration" did not mean that a certain motion had been simply put upon the Notice Paper, for that could have no practical bearing on the point. [Ministerial cries of "Oh, oh!"] He was not speaking to hon. Gentlemen opposite, who were not intelligent enough to understand him, but he was addressing the Chairman upon a point of order. He wished to remind the Chairman of what ought to be within the knowledge of every hon. member of the House who was acquainted with Parliamentary procedure, that this rule with regard to notice papers and the printing of notices was a very modern innovation indeed. It would be utterly impossible to suggest—
    *THE CHAIRMAN: I am afraid I must ask the hon. Member to limit his remarks simply to his point of order, for he is not entitled to make a speech.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid he would endeavour to do so if the Chairman would restrain the interruptions of hon. Gentlemen opposite. He wished to point out that these printed notices were modern innovations.
    *THE CHAIRMAN: That is not relevant to the point of order. May I be allowed to point out that if the hon. Member were in my position he might give a different ruling, but it devolves upon me to decide what these words mean. I have given my decision after consulting the highest authority in the House, and I do not really think that there is anything more to discuss upon this question.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILL, who was greeted with loud Ministerial cries of "Order, order!" said he again submitted that it was utterly impossible for any order or for any judgment to be based upon the Orders of the Day, because the Orders of the Day were mere matters of convenience, and were not pertinent to the legislation of this House. They were merely a modern innovation simply for the convenience of the House.
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 242; Noes, 139. (Division List No. 426.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Doxford, Sir William Theodore

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Butcher, John George

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Carlile, William Walter

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Arrol, Sir William

    Cayzer, Sir Charles William

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

    Finch, George H.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

    Chapman, Edward

    Firbank, Joseph Thomas

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Charrington, Spencer

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Fison, Frederick William

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Fitroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Flower, Ernest

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Forster, Henry William

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

    Bignold, Arthur

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Gardner, Ernest

    Bigwood, James

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Garfit, William

    Bill, Charles

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

    Bond, Edward

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'mlets

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex)

    Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Denny, Colonel

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Brassey, Albert

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.)

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Bull, William James

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    Gretton, John

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Groves, James Grimble

    M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Hain, Edward

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

    Round, James

    Haldane, Richard Burdon

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Hall, Edward Marshall

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Rutherford, John

    Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G. (Mid.)

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. E.

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W.

    Middlemore, John Throgmorton

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Heath, James (Staffords. N. W

    Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Heaton, John Henniker

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Henderson, Alexander

    Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

    Hope, J. E. (Sheffield Brightside)

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford)

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Hornby, Sir William Henry

    Mount, William Arthur

    Spear, John Ward

    Hoult, Joseph

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

    Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

    Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

    Myers, William Henry

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    Parker, Gilbert

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Kenyon, Hn. G. T. (Denbigh)

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Keswick, William

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Kimber, Henry

    Penn, John

    Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick W.

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Law, Andrew Bonar

    Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Lawrence, Wm. L. (Liverpool)

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Valentia, Viscount

    Lawson, John Grant

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Webb, Colonel William George

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

    Leveson-Cower, Fredk. N. S.

    Purvis, Robert

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-un.-Lyne

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Pym, C. Guy

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

    Randles, John S.

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

    Rankin, Sir James

    Williams, Rt Hn J Powell- (Birm.

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Lowe, Francis William

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks., E. R.)

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.)

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Renwick, George

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

    Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES.—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Donelan, Captain A.

    Ambrose, Robert

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Doogan, P. C.

    Asher, Alexander

    Cawley, Frederick

    Duffy, William J.

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Elibank, Master of

    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

    Clancy, John Joseph

    Emmott, Alfred

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Cogan, Denis J.

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    Bell, Richard

    Colville, John

    Fenwick, Charles

    Boland, John

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Field, William

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Crean, Eugene

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Boyle, James

    Crombie, John William

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Brigg, John

    Cullinan, J.

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Daly, James

    Gilhooly, James

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Grant, Corrie

    Burns, John

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Burt, Thomas

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Caine, William Sproston

    Delany, William

    Hammond, John

    Caldwell, James

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Cameron, Robert

    Dillon, John

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    164

    165

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Moss, Samuel

    Robson, William Snowdon)

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Murnaghan, George

    Roche, John

    Holland, William Henry

    Murphy, John

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Jones, David Brynmor (Swans'a

    Norman, Henry

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northants

    Jordan, Jeremiah

    O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

    Sullivan, Donald

    Joyce, Michael

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Taylor, Theodore Cooke

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Tennant, Harold John

    Kennedy, Patrick James

    O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

    Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'n, N

    Lambert, George

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Ure, Alexander

    Leamy, Edmund

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Wallace, Robert

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    O'Dowd, John

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Levy, Maurice

    O' Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Lloyd-George, David

    O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.)

    Weir, James Galloway

    Lough, Thomas

    O'Malley, William

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Lundon, W.

    O'Mara, James

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    O'Shee, James John

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Partington, Oswald

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    M'Dermott, Patrick

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    M'Fadden, Edward

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd

    M'Govern, T.

    Reddy, M.

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. D. A. Thomas and Mr. Whitley.

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.

    CLASS VI.
    7. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £307,968, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included
    in Class VI. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1.

    Superannuation and Retired Allowances

    305,637

    2.

    Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions

    1,200

    3.

    Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances

    696

    4.

    Hospitals and Charities, Ireland

    435

    £307,968

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 243; Noes, 136. (Division List No. 427.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

    Brassey, Albert

    Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Bull, William James

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Davenport, William Bromley-

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

    Arrol, Sir William

    Butcher, John George

    Denny, Colonel

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Carlile, William Walter

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r.

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

    Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

    Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

    Cayzer, Sir Charles William

    Doxford, Sir William T.

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

    Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Chapman, Edward

    Emmott, Alfred

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

    Charrington, Spencer

    Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Bignold, Arthur

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

    Bigwood, James

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Bill, Charles

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Finch, George H.

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Bond, Edward

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Firbank, Joseph Thomas

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Fison, Frederick William

    Bowles, Capt. H. F. (Middlesex

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

    Flower, Ernest

    Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

    Reid, James (Greenock)

    Forster, Henry William

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Foster, Sir Mich. (Lond. Univ.)

    Long, Col Charles W. (Evesham)

    Renshaw, Charle Bine

    Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S W

    Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Bristol, S.)

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    Gardner, Ernest

    Lonsdale, John Brownlee

    Renwick, George

    Garfit, William

    Lowe, Francis William

    Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

    Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

    Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin &Nairn

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

    Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

    Gordon, Maj. Evans- (T'r-Hmlts

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Rolleston, Sir John E. L.

    Gore, Hn. G. R. COrmsby- (Salop

    Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

    Ropner, Colonel Robert

    Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby (Linc.)

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Round, James

    Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir John Eldon

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Goschen, Hon. George J.

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Rutherford, John

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury)

    M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

    Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs)

    M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Gretton, John

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Greville, Hn. Ronald

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Groves, James Grimble

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F-

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Hain, Edward

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Haldane, Richard Burdon

    Middlemore, John T.

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Hall, Edward Marshall

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

    Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'nderry

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

    Spear, John Ward

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

    Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Morgan, David J. (Walthamstow

    Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Heath, James (Staffords. N. W)

    Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford)

    Stirling Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Heaton, John Henniker

    Mount, William Arthur

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Henderson, Alexander

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

    Murray, Rt Hn. A. Graham (Bute

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Hogg, Lindsay

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Hope, J. E. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Myers, William Henry

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Hornby, Sir William Henry

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Hoult, Joseph

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Parker, Gilbert

    Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

    Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Valentia, Viscount

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Jackson, Rt. Hon. Wm. Lawies

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Penn, John

    Webb, Col. William George

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.)

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-un.-Lyne

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Keswick, William

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Kimber, Henry

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Lambton, Hon. Frederick Wm.

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

    Law, Andrew Bonar

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.)

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Purvis, Robert

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R (Bath)

    Lawson, John Grant

    Pym, C. Guy

    Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

    Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

    Randles, John S.

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Rankin, Sir James

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Ambrose, Robert

    Burns, John

    Crean, Eugene

    Asher, Alexander

    Burt, Thomas

    Crombie, John William

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Caine, William Sproston

    Cullinan, J.

    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

    Caldwell, James

    Daly, James

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Bell, Richard

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Boland, John

    Cawley, Frederick

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Delany, William

    Boyle, James

    Clancy, John Joseph

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Cogan, Denis J.

    Dillon, John

    Brigg, John

    Colville, John

    Donelan, Captain A.

    168

    169

    Doogan, P. C.

    Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

    Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

    Duffy, William J.

    MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Elibank, Master of

    M'Dermott, Patrick

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Esmonde, Sir Thomas

    M'Fadden, Edward

    Roberts, H. (Denbighs.)

    Fenwick, Charles

    M'Govern, T.

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Field, William

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Roche, John

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    Mansfield, Horace Kendall

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Gilhooly, James

    Moss, Samuel

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Grant, Corrie

    Murnaghan, George

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Murphy, John

    Spencer, Rt. Hn C. R. (Northants

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Sullivan, Donal

    Hammond, John

    Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

    Taylor, Theodore Cooke

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Tennant, Harold John

    Hayne, Rt. Hn. C. Scale-

    Norman, Henry

    Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D.

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

    Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Holland, William Henry

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Ure, Alexander

    Horniman, Frederick John

    O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

    Wallace, Robert

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    O Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Jones, D. Brynmor (Swansea)

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Weir, James Galloway

    Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

    O'Dowd, John

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Jordan, Jeremiah

    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    White, Patrick (Meath, North)

    Joyce, Michael

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

    Whiteley, George (York, W. R.)

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    O'Malley, William

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Kennedy, Patrick James

    O'Mara, James

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

    Loamy, Edmund

    O'Shee, James John

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    Partington, Oswald

    Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

    Levy, Maurice

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Lundon, W.

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Nussey and Mr. Lambert.

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Reddy, M.

    CLASS VII.
    8. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £42,172, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included
    in Class VII. of the Estimates for Civil Services, viz.:—

    £

    1.

    Temporary Commissions

    10,149

    2.

    Miscellaneous Expenses

    17,773

    3.

    Repayments to the Civil Contingencies Fund

    14,250

    £42,172

    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 237; Noes, 135. (Division List No. 428.)

    AYES.

    Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Colomb, Sir John Chas. Read

    Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

    Brassey, Albert

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

    Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

    Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

    Arkwright, John Stanhope

    Bull, William James

    Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Cox, Irwin Edward B.

    Arrol, Sir William

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Butcher, John George

    Crossley, Sir Savile

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Carlile, William Walter

    Davenport, Wm. Bromley-

    Balcarres, Lord

    Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

    Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

    Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

    Denny, Col.

    Balfour, Capt, C. B. (Hornsey)

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

    Dickson, Charles Scott

    Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

    Cayzer, Sir Charles Wm.

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

    Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r

    Doxford, Sir William T.

    Beach, Rt Hn Sir Michael Hicks

    Chapman, Edward

    Duke, Henry Edward

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Charrington, Spencer

    Durning-Lawrence, Sir E.

    Bignold, Arthur

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. H.

    Bigwood, James

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

    Bill, Charles

    Coghill, Douglas Harry

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.

    Blundell, Colonel Henry

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

    Bond, Edward

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

    Finch, George H.

    Lawson, John Grant

    Rasch, Maj. Frederic Carne

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

    Reid, James (Geenock)

    Firbank, Joseph Thomas

    Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

    Remnant, James Farquharson

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Renshaw, Charles Bine

    Fison, Frederick William

    Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Renwick, George

    Flower, Ernest

    Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

    Ridley, Hon. M. W. (St'lybridge

    Forster, Henry William

    Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

    Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)

    Foster, Sir M. (Lond. Univ.)

    Lowe, Francis William

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Charles T.

    Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.)

    Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

    Robertson, Herbt. (Hackney)

    Gardner, Ernest

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

    Garfit, William

    Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

    Ropner, Col. Robert

    Godson, Sir Augustus F.

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Round, James

    Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

    Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Rutherford, John

    Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'ml'ts

    MacIver, David (Liverpool)

    Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

    Gore, Hn G. K. C. Ormsby- (Salop

    Maconochie, A. W.

    Sadler, Col. Samuel A.

    Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

    M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool)

    Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thomas M.

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

    M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

    Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

    Goschen, Hon. George J.

    M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Majendie, James A. H.

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury)

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

    Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Gretton, John

    Melville, Beresford Valentine

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Middlemore, John T.

    Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

    Groves, James Grimble

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Smith, H C (Nrth'mb. Tyneside

    Hain, Edward

    Molesworth, Sir Lewis

    Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

    Haldane, Richard Burdon

    Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Hall, Edward Marshall

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Spear, John Ward

    Hambro, Charles Eric

    Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

    Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich

    Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Middx

    More, Robert J. (Shropshire)

    Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

    Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry

    Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

    Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm.

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Harris, Frederick Leverton

    Morris, Hon. Martin Hy. F.

    Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Hay, Hon. Claude George

    Mount, William Arthur

    Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley

    Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Heath, Jas. (Staffords., N. W.

    Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Heaton, John Henniker

    Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Henderson, Alexander

    Myers, William Henry

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

    Hogg, Lindsay

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

    Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

    Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Hornby, Sir William Henry

    Parker, Gilbert

    Valentia, Viscount

    Hoult, Joseph

    Peel, Hon. W. R. Wellesley

    Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

    Houston, Robert Paterson

    Pemberton, John S. G.

    Walker, Col. William Hall

    Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

    Perm, John

    Webb, Col. Wm. George

    Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne

    Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Plummer, Walter R.

    Wills, Sir Frederick

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

    Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

    Pretyman, Ernest George

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.

    Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

    Keswick, William

    Purvis, Robert

    Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George

    Lambton, Hon. Fredk. Wm.

    Pym, C. Guy

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

    Law, Andrew Bonar

    Randles, John S.

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Rankin, Sir James

    NOES.

    Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

    Burns, John

    Crombie, John William

    Ambrose, Robert

    Burt, Thomas

    Cullinan, J.

    Asher, Alexander

    Caine, William Sproston

    Daly, James

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Caldwell, James

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

    Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

    Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

    Bayley, T. (Derbyshire)

    Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

    Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

    Bell, Richard

    Cawley, Frederick

    Delany, William

    Boland, John

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles

    Boyle, James

    Clancy, John Joseph

    Dillon, John

    Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

    Cogan, Denis J.

    Doogan, P. C.

    Brigg, John

    Colville, John

    Duffy, William J.

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Elibank, Master of

    Burke, E. Haviland-

    Crean, Eugene

    Emmott, Alfred

    172

    173

    Fenwick, Charles

    M'Fadden, Edward

    Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

    Field, William

    M'Govern, T.

    Redmond, William (Clare)

    Flavin, Michael Joseph

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Flynn, James Christopher

    Mansfield, Horace Rendall

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Gilhooly, James

    Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

    Roe, Sir Thomas

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Moss, Samuel

    Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

    Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

    Murnaghan, George

    Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

    Hammond, John

    Murphy, John

    Shipman, Dr. John G.

    Harmsworth, R. Leicester

    Nannetti, Joseph P.

    Soares, Ernest J.

    Hayden, John Patrick

    Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

    Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Narthants

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

    Sullivan, Donal

    Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

    Norman, Henry

    Taylor, Theodore Cooke

    Healy, Timothy Michael

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Tennant, Harold John

    Holland, William Henry

    O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid

    Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

    Horniman, Frederick John

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Thompson, Dr E (Monaghan, N.

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

    Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    O'Connor, Jas. (Wicklow, W.

    Ure, Alexander

    Jones, David Brynmor (Sw'nsea

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Wallace, Robert

    Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

    O'Doherty, John (Mayo, S.)

    Walton, John (Barnsley)

    Jordan, Jeremiah

    O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Joyce, Michael

    O'Dowd, John

    Weir, James Galloway

    Kearley, Hudson E.

    O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

    White, Luke (York, E. R.)

    Kennedy, Patrick James

    O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

    White, Patrick (Meath, North

    Lambert, George

    O'Malley, William

    Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)

    Layland-Barratt, Francis

    O'Mara, James

    Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

    Leamy, Edmund

    O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Leigh, Sir Joseph

    O'Shee, James John

    Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

    Levy, Maurice

    Partington, Oswald

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Lundon, W.

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersf'd

    MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

    MacNeill, John Cordon Swift

    Power, Patrick Joseph

    M'Dermott, Patrick

    Reddy, M.

  NAVY ESTIMATES, 1901–2.
  9. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £14,209,300, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for Expenditure on the following Navy Services, viz.:—

  £

  Vote 2.

  Victualling and Clothing

  1,892,300

  Vote 7.

  Royal Naval Reserves

  292,100

  £

  Vote 8.

  Shipbuildings, Repairs, Maintenance, etc. Section III. Contract Work

  6,685,500

  Vote 9.

  Naval Armaments

  3,919,700

  Vote 12.

  Admiralty Office

  279,600

  Vote 14.

  Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, etc.

  1,140,100

  £14,209,300

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 270; Noes, 81. (Division List No. 429.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Brassey, Albert

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Brigg, John

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bull, William James

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Colville, John

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Butcher, John George

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Balcarres, Lord

  Caldwell, James

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Crombie, John William

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Davenport, William Bromley-

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Bigwood, James

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Davies, M. Vaughan (Cardigan

  Bill, Charles

  Chapman, Edward

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Charrington, Spencer

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Dilke, Rt. Hn. Sir Charles

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Renwick, George

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Keswick, William

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Durning Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

  Elibank, Master of

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Ritchle, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Emmott, Alfred

  Lawson, John Grant

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Lee, Arthur H. (Hants, Fareham

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Legge, Col. Hon Heneage

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manch'r

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Ropner, Col. Robert

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Round, James

  Finch, George H.

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Finlay, Sir Rbt. Bannatyne

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rutherford, John

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lowe, Francis William

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Flower, Ernest

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Forster, Henry William

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Foster, Sir Michael (Lond Univ.

  Saunderson, Rt. Hn. Col. Edw. J.

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Sharpe, Wm. Edward T.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Garfit, William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herb. John

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Smith, H. C. (N'rthmb. Tyneside

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Maple, Sir John Blundell

  Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cordon, Maj. Evans (T'rH'mlets

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hon. W. F.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Spear, John Ward

  Gore, Hn. S. F. Ormsby- (Line

  Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

  Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich

  Goschen, Hn. George Joachim

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs

  Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Groves, James Grimble

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Strutt, Hn. Chas Hedley

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Sturt, Hn. Humphry Napier

  Hain, Edward

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Mount, William Arthur

  Thomson, F. W. (York, W. R.)

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hamilton, Marq. of (Londnderry

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Myers, William Henry

  Tritton, Chas. Ernest

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Norman, Henry

  Ure, Alexander

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Valentia, Viscount

  Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robt. Torrens

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Henderson, Alexander

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Parker, Gilbert

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Partington, Oswald

  Webb, Col. William George

  Holland, William Henry

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Weir, James Galloway

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield Brightside

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts)

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-und-Lyne

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Penn, John

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire N.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Huddersf'd

  Purvis, Robert

  Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George

  Jackson, Rt. Hn. Wm. Lawies

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Randles, John S.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Jones, David Brynm'r (Swansea

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  176

  177

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Hammond, John

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Asher, Alexander

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  O'Dowd, John

  Bell, Richard

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Boland, John

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Boyle, James

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Malley, William

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  O'Mara, James

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Lambert, George

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Burns, John

  Leamy, Edmund

  O'Shee, James John

  Caine, William Sproston

  Levy, Maurice

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Campbell, John (Amagh, S.)

  Lundon, W.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Carvill, Patrick Geo Hamilton

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Reddy, M.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  MacNeill, John Cordon Swift

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Cogan, Dennis J.

  M'Dermott, Patrick

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Crean, Eugene

  M'Govern, T.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cullinan, J.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Daly, James

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Delany, William

  Murnaghan, George

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Dillon, John

  Murphy, John

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Whiteley, George (Yorks, W. R.)

  Duffy, William J.

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Field, William

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmond and Captain Donelan.

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  ARMY ESTIMATES, 1901–2.
  10. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £44,988,600, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for Expenditure in respect of the following Army Services, viz.:—

  £

  Vote 2.

  Medical Establishment, Pay, etc.

  1,088,600

  Vote 3.

  Militia: Pay, Bounty, etc.

  2,662,000

  Vote 4.

  Yeomanry Cavalry, Pay and Allowances

  375,000

  £

  Vote 5.

  Volunteer Corps, Pay and Allowances

  1,230,000

  Vote 7.

  Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies

  18,782,000

  Vote 8.

  Clothing Establishments and Services

  4,825,000

  Vote 9.

  Warlike and other Stores: Supply and Repair

  13,450,000

  Vote 13.

  War Office: Salaries and Miscellaneous Charges

  305,000

  Vote 14.

  Non-Effective Charges for Offices, etc.

  2,271,000

  £44,988,600

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 264; Noes, 81. (Division List No. 430.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. E.

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Brassey, Albert

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Brigg, John

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Brown, Alex. H. (Shropsh.)

  Colville, John

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bull, William James

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Butcher, John George

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Balcarres, Lord

  Caldwell, James

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J (Manch'r

  Carlile, William Walter

  Crombie, John William

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds.)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J (Birm.

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worcr

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Bignold, Arthur

  Chapman, Edward

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Bigwood James

  Charrington, Spencer

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Bill, Charles

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  Blundell, Col. Henry

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Cochrane, Hn. Thos. H. A. E.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lawrence, Wm. E. (Liverpool)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Elibank, Master of

  Lawson, John Grant

  Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge

  Emmott, Alfred

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidstone

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants., Fareham

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas Thomson

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Forgusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Finch, George H.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Round, James

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lowe, Francis William

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Rutherford, John

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Lloyd, Archie Kirkman

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Flower, Ernest

  Lucas Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Forster, Henry William

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Foster, Sir Michael (Lond. Univ.

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Gardner, Ernest

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Garfit, William

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Gordon, Maj. Evans- (T'rH'ml'ts

  Maple, Sir John Blundell

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Gore, Hn. G. R C Ormsby- (Salop)

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Smith, H C (North'mb. Tyneside

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby (Linc.)

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

  Smith, Hon. W. E. D. (Strand)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Spear, John Ward

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

  Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

  Groves, James Grimble

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Stanley, Edward Jas (Somerset)

  Hain, Edward

  Morgan, David J (Walthamstow

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Morton, Arthur H. A (Deptford)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'ndonderry

  Mount, William Arthur

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute

  Thomson, F. W. (Yorks, W. R.)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Myers, William Henry

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  Norman, Henry

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Heath, Arthur Howard Hanley

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Ure, Alexander

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Henderson, Alexander

  Parker, Gilbert

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

  Partington, Oswald

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Holland, William Henry

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield Brightside

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Weir, James Golloway

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Penn, John

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E (Notts.)

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Houston, Robert Paterson

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Hummer, Walter R.

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Hozier, Hn. Jas. Henry Cecil

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire, N

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Purvis, Robert

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Randles, John S.

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Huddersfi'd

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Rasch, Major Frederick Carne

  Jones, David Brynm'r (Swansea

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Keswick, William

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Renwick, George

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.

  Boyle, James

  Ambrose, Robert

  Bell, Richard

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Asher, Alexander

  Boland, John

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  180

  181

  Burns, John

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Dowd, John

  Caine, William Sproston

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Leamy, Edmund

  O'Malley, William

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Levy, Maurice

  O'Mara, James

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Lundon, W.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  O'Shee, James John

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Crean, Eugene

  M'Dermott, Patrick

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Cullinan, J.

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Reddy, M.

  Daly, James

  M'Govern, T.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Delany, William

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Dillon, John

  Moss, Samuel

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Doogan, P. C.

  Murnaghan, George

  Sullivan, Donal

  Duffy, William J.

  Murphy, John

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Field, William

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  White, Patrick (Meath, N.)

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

  Whiteley, George (Yorks, W. R.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Hammond, John

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS ESTIMATES, 1901–2.
  11. Motion made, and Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £2,884,880, be granted to His Majesty, to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, for Expenditure in respect of the following Services included
  in the Estimates for Revenue Departments, viz.:—

  £

  1.

  Customs

  528,300

  5.

  Post Office Telegraphs

  2,356,580

  £2,884,880

  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 223; Noes, 116. (Division List No. 431.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Chamberlain, Austen (Worc'r

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward A.

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Chapman, Edward

  Flower, Ernest

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Forster, Henry William

  Arrol, Sir William

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Foster, Sir M. (Lond. Univ.)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Gardner, Ernest

  Balcarres, Lord

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Garfit, William

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'm'ts

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cox, Irwin Edward B.

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael H.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Bignold, Arthur

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Greene, Hy. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Bigwood, James

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Brassey, Albert

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Brown, Alex. H. (Shropshire)

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Hain, Edward

  Bull, William James

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Butcher, John George

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir E.

  Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Ld. G. (Mdx.

  Carlile, William Walter

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'dond'rry)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. Wm.

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Fielden, Edwd. Brocklehurst

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Finch, George H.

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Cayzer, Sir Charles W.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  Heath, Arthur Howard (H'nley

  Heath, Jas. (Staffords., N. W.

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Sadler, Col. Samuel A.

  Henderson, Alexander

  Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

  More, Robert J. (Shropshire)

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Hogg, Lindsay

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Morris, Hon. Martin Hy. F.

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Hoult, Joseph

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Houston, Robt. Paterson

  Mount, William Arthur

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Smith, H C (N'rth'mb., T'neside

  Hozier, Hon. Jas. Henry Cecil

  Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Jeffreys, Arthur Fredk.

  Myers, William Henry

  Spear, John Ward

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)

  Keswick, William

  Parker, Gilbert

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Peel, Hon. Wm. R. Wellesley

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Lawson, John Grant

  Penn, John

  Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Sturt, Hon. Humphrey Napier

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Pilkington, Lt.-Col. Richard

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester

  Leveson-Gower, Fred N. S.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Long, Rt Hn Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Lowe, Francis William

  Purvis, Robert

  Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Randles, John S.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Rankin, Sir James

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th)

  Rasch, Maj. Frederic Carne

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Renwick, George

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool)

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Wilson, Arthur S. (York, E. R.)

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

  M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Charles T.

  Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Maple, Sir John Blundell

  Rolleston, Sir J. F. L.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Ropner, Col. Robert

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Round, James

  Middlemore, Jn. Throgmorton

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Rutherford, John

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

  Delany, William

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Ambrose, Robert

  Dillon, John

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Asher, Alexander

  Donelan, Capt. A.

  Leamy, Edmund

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Bell, Richard

  Duffy, William J.

  Levy, Maurice

  Boland, John

  Elibank, Master of

  Lundon, W.

  Boyle, James

  Emmott, Alfred

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Brigg, John

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Field, William

  M'Dermott, Patrick

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Burns, John

  Flynn, James Christopher

  M'Govern, T.

  Caine, William Sproston

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Caldwell, James

  Gilhooly, James

  Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Moss, Samuel

  Carvill, Patrick George H.

  Hammond, John

  Murnaghan, George

  Cawley, Frederick

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Murphy, John

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Colville, John

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  Norman, Henry

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Holland, William Henry

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Crean, Eugene

  Horniman, Frederick

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

  Crombie, John William

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Cullinan, J.

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Daly, James

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  184

  185

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  O'Dowd, John

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Roberts, John II. (Denbighs.)

  White, Luke (Yorks., E. R.)

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  O'Malley, William

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Whiteley, J. H. (Halifax)

  O'Mara, James

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  O'Shee, James John

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Wilson, Henry J (Yorks., W. R.)

  Partington, Oswald

  Sullivan, Donal

  Woodhouse, Sir J T (Hudd'rsfi'd

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Thomas, David Alfred (M'rthyr

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Thomas Bayley and Mr. Taylor.

  Reddy, M.

  Thomson, F. W. (Yorks., W R.)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Ure, Alexander

  Question put, "That the Chairman do report these Resolutions to the House."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 224; Noes, 103. (Division List No. 432.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Dickson, Charles Scott

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry C.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

  Asher, Alexander

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Keswick, William

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Followes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J. (Manch'r

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

  Lawson, John Grant

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Finch, George H.

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S.

  Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Fison, Frederick William

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

  Flower, Ernest

  Lowe, Francis William

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Forster, Henry William

  Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

  Bignold, Arthur

  Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Bigwood, James

  Gardner, Ernest

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Garfit, William

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Brassey, Albert

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.)

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Bull, William James

  Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'mlets

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Lurdett-Coutts, W.

  Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Butcher, John George

  Gore, Hon. S. F. Ormsby- (Linc.

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Maple, Sir John Blundell

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

  Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Middlemore, John T.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Hain, Edward

  Mildmay, Francis Bingham

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Chapman, Edward

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Midd'x

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Mount, William Arthur

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Corville, John

  Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Henderson, Alexander

  Myers, William Henry

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Hogg, Lindsay

  O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

  Crossley, Sir Savile

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Hornby, Sir William Henry

  Parker, Gilbert

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

  Hoult, Joseph

  Peel, Hon. Wm. Robert Wellesley

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Perm, John

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Round, James

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Purvis, Robert

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Randles, John S.

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Walker, Col. William Hall

  Rankin, Sir James

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Webb, Col. William George

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Welby, Sir Chas. G. E. (Notts.)

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Wills, Sir Frederick

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Smith, H C (North'mb, Tyneside

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Renwick, George

  Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.)

  Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. (Strand)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath)

  Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green)

  Spear, John Ward

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

  Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur) Ormskirk)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Bell, Richard

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  O'Dowd, John

  Boland, John

  Healy, Timothy Michael

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Boyle, James

  Horniman, Frederick John

  O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

  Brigg, John

  Hutton, Alfred F. (Morley)

  O'Malley, William

  Broadhrst, Henry

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Mara, James

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Burns, John

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Shee, James John

  Caine, William Sproston

  Joyce, Michael

  Partington, Oswald

  Caldwell, James

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Reddy, M.

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Leamy, Edmund

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leigh, Sir Joseph

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Levy, Maurice

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Lundon, W.

  Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

  Cogan, Denis J.

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Sullivan, Donal

  Crean, Eugene

  M'Dermott, Patrick

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Cullinan, J.

  M'Fadden, Edward

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr

  Daly, James

  M'Govern, T.

  Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Thomson, F. W. (Yorks., W. R.)

  Delany, William

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  Ure, Alexander

  Dillon, John

  Moss, Samuel

  White, Luke (Yorks., E. R.)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Murnaghan, George

  White, Patrick (Meath, North

  Doogan, P. C.

  Murphy, John

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Duffy, William J.

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Elibank, Master of

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth

  Emmott, Alfred

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks., W. R.

  Field, William

  Norman, Henry

  Woodhouse, Sir J T. (Hudd'rsfi'd

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Mr. Courtenay Warner.

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Hammond, John

  O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

  Resolutions to be reported to-morrow.

NAVY AND ARMY EXPENDITURE, 1899–1900.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Whereas it appears by the Navy Appropriation Account for the year ended the
188
31st day of March, 1900, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—

(a) That the gross expenditure for certain Navy Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £1,151,718 11s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the

189
gross expenditure for other Navy Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £1,749,812 15s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule, so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Navy Services fell short of the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £598,094 4s.;

(b) That the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Navy Services exceeded the total estimated receipts by the sum of £205,185 6s. (id., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule;

(c) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Navy Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—

£

s.

d.

Total Surpluses

1,793,043

11

2

Total Deficits

929,764

0

8

Net Surplus

£803,279

10

6

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Navy Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriations-in-Aid, in respect of the same Services; and have also temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services."
Motion made, and Question Proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
MR. JOHN REDMONDmoved to report progress. He said the Committee had been engaged during the night in the performance of a work which it had never in the whole course of its long history been called upon to perform before. Without one word of comment or discussion the Committee had voted sixty-seven millions of public money, and he thought that the scandal would be still further increased if the First Lord of the Treasury forced other business on the Committee.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report progress;
190
and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. John Redmond.)
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): I hope the hon. Gentleman will not persist in his motion. The subject which the Committee is now asked to deal with is of a purely formal character, and as far as I know has never been discussed before. It is absolutely necessary to pass this resolution in order that we may get on with our financial business before we proceed to enjoy our well-earned holiday. I hope the hon. Gentleman will not persist in his motion.
MR. DILLONsaid he hoped his hon. friend would persist in his motion. The honourable understanding on which the Supply rule rested was that no other business should be taken on an allotted day, and he would respectfully urge on the right hon. Gentleman that to submit the resolution under the circumstances was a breach of that understanding. If the whole of an allotted day were not devoted to Supply, and if other business were taken, then it ceased to be an allotted day. That had been recognised by the right hon. Gentleman himself, for on one occasion when a Bill was taken after Supply on an allotted day the right hon. Gentleman stated that it was taken through an oversight when he was not present, and that it would not be allowed to occur again. The understanding, which affected the convenience of many hon. members, was that an allotted day should be devoted to Supply and to Supply alone, and to take other business at that hour of the morning was a complete breach of that understanding. It might be urged that that understanding ceased when the 12 o'clock rule was suspended, but it could not be contended that on an ordinary allotted day the right hon. Gentleman would be entitled to move to report progress at 11 p.m. in order to consider other business. Was there an alteration when the 12 o'clock rule was suspended? He said not, because when the 12 o'clock rule was suspended it did not alter the spirit of the application of the Supply rule, and if the Committee sat until 5 a.m. it would still be one sitting, and on all fours with an ordinary sitting concluding at 12 o'clock. Therefore,

191
the consideration of other business on an allotted day was a distinct breach of the understanding on which the Supply rule was based. That was a strong and unanswerable argument against taking any further business that night, but even if it did not exist, surely the argument of his hon. friend the Member for Waterford was one of great force. Hon. members had been travelling through the division lobbies for several hours, mainly in a silly procession. It was said that that was the fault of the Irish members, but it was not. It was the fault of the Government, who acted in a most preposterous manner in lumping together Supply without any logical arrangement.
*THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is now discussing the resolution passed yesterday. He cannot go back to that.
MR. DILLONsaid he would not proceed in that argument further, but he would urge that the proceedings of the last throe and a quarter hours were the fault of the Government, and that, therefore, they were entitled to demand from the Government after such a performance that business should be now interrupted, and that hon. members should be allowed to retire to their beds. He thought that claim was increased by the fact that the whole proceedings of the House of Commons had been turned into ridicule in order to allow hon. members to be at Blenheim on Saturday. If that were a sufficient excuse for turning the House of Commons into a laughing stock, and revolutionising the principles on which its business had been conducted for 200 years, surely hon. members who were not going to Blenheim were entitled to some consideration. It was most irrational for the Government to ask the Committee to consider further business that night. The First Lord of the Treasury made the astounding statement that the resolution was purely formal. If the right hon. Gentleman persisted he hoped to be able to convince him in the course of a somewhat prolonged discussion that that statement was not accurate. An amount of laxity in framing the Estimates had been shown, and could not be permitted to pass without discussion. The right
192
hon. Gentleman also said that the resolution had never been discussed before, but he remembered discussing it himself, and if it were persisted in he would have to discuss it again. Hon. members were now in a far more fit state of mind to go home and rest than to enter upon a complicated discussion of the Estimates.
MR. DALZIELsaid he thought the reasons given by his hon. friends for reporting progress were unanswerable. There was another reason, and that was that the First Lord of the Treasury stated that no important business would be taken after Supply. The right hon. Gentleman stated that the resolution was formal, but he differed from the right hon. Gentleman.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: It has been treated as formal for generations.
MR. DALZIELsaid that respect had not been shown for what had been done for generations in other and more important matters. In his experience never had a resolution been proposed which showed such laxity in the preparation of the Estimates. Over a million sterling more than was anticipated had been expended—
*THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member is now discussing the resolution.
MR. DALZIELsaid he was merely indicating how necessary it was to report progress in order that the resolution might be fully considered on another occasion. How long did the right hon. Gentleman intend to ask the Committee to sit? Hon. members were all anxious not to interfere with the general understanding as to the date of the adjournment, but after walking through the division lobbies for several hours he thought they were entitled to a rest. If that resolution were passed, would the right hon. Gentleman proceed to other business? Was there any other department which had spent a million too much in one direction and a million too little in another? Certainly on previous occasions when Supply was discussed no other business was taken. The procedure now proposed was entirely new, and he would appeal to the

193
right hon. Gentleman as to whether there was not some respect due to the Opposition and to the House of Commons. The right hon. Gentleman had done very well, and would not lose anything by falling in with the suggestion of his hon. friend.
*MR. CHANNINGsaid that if it were necessary to pass the resolution in order to be able to introduce the Appropriation Bill, that it would be perfectly easy to do so by having a Saturday sitting. He had been in the House for sixteen years, and had seen Saturday sittings again and again towards the end of the session for exactly this purpose, and there was no reason why they should not have one that week, except the reason referred to by the hon. Member for East Mayo. Hon. members had been deprived of their rest, and the House had been driven in a most despotic manner, in order to give the right hon. Gentleman and his friends a pleasant holiday on Saturday. Ordinary parliamentary procedure had been put aside, and the most serious interference made with their constitutional rights by a complete changed procedure for no real reason except this, and it was discreditable and an outrage on the House of Commons that its rights and privileges should thus be ignored, and that it should thus be driven as it was, with a lash.
MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid that although the resolution in previous years had been formal, that year it was not quite so formal. In past years the Treasury always protected the interests of Parliament by not allowing anything which was not in accordance with constitutional practice, but this year the Public Accounts Committee had reported that, while acknowledging the payments were necessary under existing circumstances, they considered that in future they should have parliamentary sanction, and that provision should be made for that purpose. For that and other reasons the resolution was now more important than ever it had been before, and therefore required more discussion. Accordingly its consideration should be postponed.
MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid that the suggestion that the resolution
194
should be postponed was a reasonable one. They had been told by the First Lord of the Treasury that the business for that night would be the voting of Supply. Supply had been voted after thirteen divisions had been taken, and surely under the circumstances the right hon. Gentleman ought to agree to adjourn. He would suggest very respectfully to the right hon. Gentleman that if the resolution could not be taken on Friday they should have a Saturday sitting for the purpose of passing it. It was most inconvenient not to have a Saturday sitting, which would obviate hon. members being kept up to any hour every night. Could the right hon. Gentleman give any valid or reasonable explanation why at this period of the session the House should not be called upon to sit next Saturday and the following Saturday? It would be much more convenient to have a Saturday sitting than to have prolonged sittings night after night. He submitted that hon. members should abandon their week-end trips, and have a Saturday sitting to transact the business which it was sought to take that night. Why should there not be a Saturday sitting? He had heard it suggested, but he could hardly believe it, that most of the Cabinet Ministers had arranged to go down to Oxford on Saturday to be entertained by a certain nobleman in the neighbourhood of that town. He was, however, sure that that entertainment would not be permitted by such a businesslike Government to stand between the House of Commons and the transaction of business at that late period of the session. He did not believe that an engagement of that kind would prevent the First Lord of the Treasury, who attended so constantly to his business, having a Saturday sitting to complete the work of the session. He had heard a story—he did not know what credence should be given to it—with reference to the proposed alternative of a Saturday sitting. It was to the effect that there had been a division in the Cabinet on the question, and that the First Lord of the Treasury said he was quite prepared to have a Saturday sitting, and to forego the pleasure of being entertained at Blenheim, but that the Colonial Secretary declared that he would not allow

195
anything to stand between him and the opportunity of being entertained by a real live duke, which the First Lord of the Treasury might have been used to all his life, but which he was not. He most earnestly protested against hon. members who were prepared to do their duty and to transact business being kept up all night and refused a Saturday sitting in order that the Colonial Secretary might be enabled to hob-nob with a duke.
MR. FLYNNrose to speak, when.
MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 180; Noes, 92. (Division List No. 433.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Gardner, Ernest

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Morgan, David J. (Walthamst'w

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

Morrell, George Herbert

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Gordon, Maj Evans (T'rH'mlets

Mount, William Arthur

Arrol, Sir William

Gore, Hn. G. R. C Ormsby- (Salop

Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W. (Leeds

Groves, James Grimble

Pemberton, John S. G.

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Hambro, Charles Eric

Pierpoint, Robert

Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Midd'x

Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir Michael Hicks

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Plummer, Walter R.

Bignold, Arthur

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Pretyman, Ernest George

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Brassey, Albert

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Purvis, Robert

Bull, William James

Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.)

Randles, John S.

Bullard, Sir Harry

Heaton, John Henniker

Rankin, Sir James

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Reid, James (Greenock)

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hogg, Lindsay

Remnant, James Farquharson

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightsd.)

Rentoul, James Alexander

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Renwick, George

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Hoult, Joseph

Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Hudson, George Bickersteth)

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor'cr

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

Chapman, Edward

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

Charrington, Spencer

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Keswick, William

Round, James

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Law, Andrew Bonar

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Lawrence, Wm, F. (Liverpool)

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

Lawson, John Grant

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Cranborne, Viscount

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

Crossley, Sir Savile

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Davenport, William Bromley-

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Seton-Karr, Henry

Dickson, Charles Scott

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.)

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth)

Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tyneside

Duke, Henry Edward

Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Macdona, John Cumming

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Maconochie, A. W.

Spear, John Ward

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk-

Finch, George H.

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Stanley, Edward Jas. (Somerset)

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Majendie, James A. H.

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Maple, Sir John Blundell

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Fisher, William Hayes

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Fison, Frederick William

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Flower, Ernest

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Thornton, Percy M.

Forster, Henry William

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Tollemache, Henry James

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.)

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Valentia, Viscount

Wills, Sir Frederick

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Walker, Col. William Hall

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Webb, Colonel William George

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

Hammond, John

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Ambrose, Robert

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Asher, Alexander

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

O'Dowd, John

Boland, John

Healy, Timothy Michael

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Boyle, James

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.)

Brigg, John

Jameson, Major J. Eustace

O'Malley, William

Broadhurst, Henry

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

O'Mara, James

Burke, E. Haviland-

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Burns, John

Joyce, Michael

O'Shee, James John

Caldwell, James

Kennedy, Patrick James

Partington, Oswald

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Leamy, Edmund

Power, Patrick Joseph

Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Reddy, M.

Channing, Francis Allston

Levy, Maurice

Redmond, John E (Waterford

Clancy, John Joseph

Lundon, W.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Cogan, Denis J.

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

Colville, John

Mac Neill, John Gordon Swift

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Dermott, Patrick

Sullivan, Donal

Crean, Eugene

M'Fadden, Edward

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Cullinan, J.

M'Govern, T.

Thomas David Alfred (Merthyr)

Daly, James

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Thompson, Dr. E. C (Mon'ghn, N

Dalziel, James Henry

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

Moss, Samuel

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Delany, William

Murnaghan, George

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Dillon, John

Murphy, John

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Doogan, P. C.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

Duffy, William J.

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Williams, Osmond) Merioneth)

Field, William

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Gilhooly, James

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Griffith, Ellis J.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W)

Question put accordingly. "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 93; Noes, 176. (Division List No. 434.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Murphy, John

Ambrose, Robert

Flynn, James Christopher

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Asher, Alexander

Gilhooly, James

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Griffith, Ellis, J.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Boland, John

Hammond, John

O' Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

Boyle, James

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Brien, P. (Kilkenny)

Brigg, John

Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Broadhurst, Henry

Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.).

Burke, E. Haviland-

Healy, Timothy Michael

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Burns, John

Horniman, Frederick John

O Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Caldwell, James

Jameson, Major J. Eustace

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

O'Dowd, John

Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Channing, Francis Allston

Joyce, Michael

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

Clancy, John Joseph

Kennedy, Patrick James

O'Malley, William

Cogan, Denis J.

Leamy, Edmund

O'Mara, James

Colville, John

Leigh, Sir Joseph

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Levy, Maurice

O'Shee, James John

Crean, Eugene

Lundon, W.

Partington, Oswald

Cullinan, J.

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Daly, James

M'Neill, John Gordon Swift

Reddy, M.

Dalziel, James Henry

M'Dermott, Patrick

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

M'Fadden, Edward

Redmond, William (Clare)

Delany, William

M'Govern, T.

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Dillon, John

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Doogan, P. C.

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Duffy, William J.

Moss, Samuel

Sullivan, Donal

Field, William

Murnaghan, George

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Wilson, Henry J. (York's., W. R.

Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

White, Luke (Yorks., E. R.)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F.

Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Palmer, Waiter (Salisbury)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Pemberton, John S. G.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

Pierpoint, Robert

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Pilkington, Lieut.-Col. Richard

Arrol, Sir William

Groves, James Grimble

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Hambro, Charles Eric

Plummer, Walter R.

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

Pretyman, Ernest George

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Bryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Purvis, Robert

Balfour, Rt. Hn. Gerald W (Leeds

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Randles, John S.

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.)

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Rankin, Sir James

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H.

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Reid, James (Greenock)

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bignold, Arthur

Heaton, John Henniker

Rentoul, James Alexander

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Renwick, George

Brassey, Albert

Hogg, Lindsay

Ridley, Hon. M. W. (Stalybridge

Bull, William James

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Bullard, Sir Harry

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Hoult, Joseph

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Round, James

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

Sackville, Col. S. G Stopford-

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Keswick, William

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Chapman, Edward

Law, Andrew Bonar

Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

Charrington, Spencer

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Lawson, John Grant

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Seaton-Karr, Henry

Compton, Lord Alwyne

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

Cranborne, Viscount

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

Smith, H. C. (North'mb Tyneside

Crossley, Sir Savile

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Davenport, William Bromley-

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Spear, John Ward

Dickson, Charles Scott

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. Ellison

Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Macdona, John Cumming

Stanley, Edward J. (Somerset

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Maconochie, A. W.

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Duke, Henry Edward

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

Majendie, James A. H.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Maple, Sir John Blundell

Thornton, Percy M.

Finch, George H.

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Tomlinson, Wm. Ed. Murray

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Tufnell, Lieut-Col. Edward

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Valentia, Viscount

Fisher, William Hayes

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Walker, Col. William Hall

Fison, Frederick William

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Webb, Colonel William George

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Flower, Ernest

More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)

Wills, Sir Frederick

Forster, Henry William

Morgan, David J. (Walthamst'w

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W.

Morrell, George Herbert

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestershire N

Gardner, Ernest

Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F.

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Mount, William Arthur

Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn)

Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'mlets

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Original Question again proposed.
MR. DALZIELsaid this was a very important matter, which required some explanation. He hoped the Secretary to the Treasury would be able to explain.
200
It seemed to him that they had got to a state of things when it was almost useless having any Estimates prepared at all. He hoped they would get an assurance that greater care would be taken in future.
MR. O'MARAsaid the First Lord of the Treasury had stated that the resolution was purely formal. The First Lord with his big battalions could carry any resolution he might introduce, but that was the only reason he could adduce to prove that this was purely formal. He had a number of objections to the resolution. The whole of the schedule to which the resolution alluded showed the gross carelessness with which the Estimates had been prepared, He could not understand how, under Sub-section 3 relating to contract work, there had been a miscalculation amounting to £1,489,405. The resolution now before the Committee proposed that certain amounts of money should be deviated to purposes other than those for which they were originally voted, and the First Lord said this was a purely formal matter. As an example of what was going on, he quoted a passage from the Report of the Public Accounts Committee with regard to the taking over of the Nelson Monument at Portsmouth by the Admiralty from the War Office. The contract for re-building the monument amounted to £1,091, but the contractors proved that the actual cost was £1,411, and the Admiralty applied to the Treasury for leave to pay the excess. The Treasury acceded to the application on the ground that the work was exceptional, and that it was impossible to make an accurate estimate before the work was commenced. That one small matter ought to be enough to awaken suspicion with regard to the larger matters with which this resolution dealt. The Public Accounts Committee stated in their Report that they were of opinion that such deviations should only be allowed by the Treasury when the circumstances were very exceptional, and that this case must in no way be taken as a precedent. He submitted that the resolution now before the Committee was simply an Act of Indemnity for Ministers who had allowed money to be applied to purposes for which it was not voted. If money which was voted for one service could be applied to others, it showed that the House was consistently and continuously presented with Estimates which were false. They could easily be made more accurate if trouble was taken. On martial law over £2,600 had been spent
202
beyond what was estimated, and the manner in which various other items had been expended certainly required some explanation. With reference to contracts, he desired to know how much had been spent in Government shipyards. Of course the Committee knew very well that contractors could turn out ships quite as good, if not better, than the ships turned out in the Royal shipyards, and certainly much cheaper. The Committee would like to know why £809,951 bad been diverted by the permanent officials into yards controlled by themselves instead of being expended on contracts in the ordinary way. Last year the amount diverted was £749,000, and the year before £1,084,000. The Department could have enforced penalties for the non-execution of work, but they only imposed £350 altogether, and he believed that that amount had been afterwards returned. The Committee was dealing with enormous sums of money, over which the House of Commons had no control, and it was giving enormous power to the Treasury to have absolute control of over three millions of money. The First Lord of the Treasury had suggested that that was a formal matter, but at any rate he felt very keenly about it. The House of Commons was losing its control over money matters, and whenever a similar resolution was brought forward he would not hesitate to discuss it. He proposed to omit the following words—
"That the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Navy Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriations-in-Aid, in respect of the same Services; and have also temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total surpluses on certain Grants for Navy Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other Grants for Navy Services."
*THE CHAIRMAN: The only question I have to put is, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned." What the hon. Member proposes to omit is merely a recital.
MR. O'MARAsaid he would move, instead, that £100,000 be substituted for the net surplus. It was ridiculous that, having spent twenty-two days in discussing Supply last session, the views of the officials should now be brought

203
forward for the acceptance of hon. members.
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.)said that the hon. Member who first spoke complained that the figures before the Committee showed great inaccuracies in the Estimates made by the Admiralty some two years ago. He would ask the Committee to remember that both the Admiralty and the War Office had to forecast the needs of a particular year long in advance of the year itself. Several of the Estimates were dependent on requirements which had to be learned from foreign stations, and they had to be drawn up a long time in advance. When hon. members considered that the Estimates were framed three and sometimes six months before the commencement of the financial year, it was not unnatural that there should be a divergence between what was estimated and what was required. Although the divergencies were large, were they improperly large having regard to the total of Votes, which amounted to twenty-seven and a half millions? The excess of actual over gross expenditure amounted to something under 4 per cent., which was not very high considering the difficulties under which the Estimates were framed.
MR. COURTENAY WARNER: They are nearly all in one item.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: That was mainly due to the failure of the contractors to carry out the estimates framed, he thought by themselves, as to the amount of work they could turn out within a year, and also because the Admiralty were unable to put out certain orders as early as they expected, because the designs of the ships were not ready. The Admiralty found that they could make greater progress in their own yards, and they accordingly asked the Treasury to sanction the authorisation of some of the money which could not be spent for the purpose for which it was voted. They heard a great deal of dealing in affairs in a businesslike way, and the manner in which those matters were treated was nothing but businesslike. The hon. Member for South Kilkenny asked for details of the items, but he did not think he would be justified in occupying the time of the Committee
204
in giving them. The hon. member founded his request partly on the allegation that the action of the Treasury was illegal. That was a misapprehension. Parliament had decided with regard to the Navy and the Army, if there was a surplus on certain Votes and a deficit on others, that the Treasury should have power to sanction the authorisation of the surplus for the purpose of meeting the deficit, always provided that the total sum voted by the House was not exceeded. Parliament had given the Treasury the right to exercise its discretion in connection with expenditure in the Navy and the Army, and if the hon. member wished to learn how that discretion had been exercised, he would find it set out in full in the Appropriation Accounts which were annually laid before Parliament. Those accounts had been examined with very great care by the Public Accounts Committee, and he thought it would not be reasonable to ask the Committee to go into details in a resolution of that kind, which it had been customary for a long time to regard as non-contentious.
MR. DILLONsaid he had no intention of going into the details which had been already dealt with by his hon. friend the member for South Kilkenny, but he wished again to protest against the position taken up by the First Lord of the Treasury. He was perfectly well aware that it was competent for the Treasury in connection with Votes for the Army and Navy to sanction the application of money voted for one purpose to another purpose, but the very fact that it was necessary to pass that resolution showed that it was not a formal matter. If it were a formal matter the action of the Treasury would be left unchecked, and there would be no need for the resolution at all. He was also aware that there was a very full explanation in the Appropriation Accounts with reference to the matter, but it did not follow that because Parliament gave the Treasury certain power that the Treasury should be at liberty to play fast and loose with the Army and Navy Votes. That would be an absolute absurdity. The sums which had been overspent and underspent were enormous, and the manner in which the Treasury had acted was calculated to set at nought the

205
decisions of Parliament. There were two other points on which he grounded his claim to discuss the resolution. First of all, the miscalculation of the Admiralty in matters not connected with foreign stations had been enormous. It was preposterous that there should be an excess of £245,366 for victualling and clothing for the Navy. The number of men and boys in the Navy was well known, and not a man or boy more than the number voted could be borne. Why, then, should there have been such an enormous excess? He thought that some better explanation than that offered by the Secretary to the Treasury should be given. He observed that there was growing up a most objectionable and vicious practice of grabbing money voted for one purpose and transferring it to another purpose, instead of bringing up a Supplementary Estimate in the ordinary way. That was entirely indefensible. The First Lord of the Treasury had bottled up hon. members. Nearly 100 Votes had been passed without their being allowed to open their mouths, but, as long as human nature remained what it was, discussion would burst out in
another direction. If they were not to be allowed to discuss Supply in an ordinary and proper manner, they would be forced to discuss it whenever opportunity offered. Hon. members would devise novel methods for discussion if their ordinary opportunities were cut off. There was only one way to put an end to discussion on those matters, and that was to do what was done in Germany, namely, to vote three or four years Supply and adjourn Parliament for that period. So long as the House of Commons was called together for the purpose of criticising the Government, so long would some means of discussion be discovered by ingenious members, and no rules could prevent that. Those were the grounds on which he objected to the resolution being taken.
MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 163; Noes, 83. (Division List No. 435.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

Hope, J. E. (Shef'd, Brightside

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Duke, Henry Edward

Hoult, Joseph

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Arrol, Sir William

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Finch, George H.

Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh)

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Keswick, William

Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Fisher, William Hayes

Lawson, John Grant

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Fison, Frederick William

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Bentinck, Lord Henry

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Bignold, Arthur

Flower, Ernest

Leveson-Gower, F. N. S.

Blundell, Colonel Henry C.

Forster, Henry William

Loder, Gerald W. Erskine

Brassey, Albert

Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.)

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Bullard, Sir Harry

Gardner, Ernest

Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Godson, Sir A. Frederick

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Gordon, Maj. Evans- (T'rH'mts

Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E.

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Gore, Hn G. R. C. Ormsby- (Salop

Macdona, John Cumming

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Goschen, Hon. G. Joachim

Maconochie, A. W.

Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

Goulding, Edward Alfred

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Chapman, Edward

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.

Charrington, Spencer

Greville, Hon. Ronald

M'Killop, J. (Stirlingshire)

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Groves, James Grimble

Majendie, James A. H.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Hambro, Charles Eric

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Midd'x

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm.

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Corbett, T. L. (Down, N.)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Cranborne, Viscount

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Crossley, Sir Savile

Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Davenport, William Bromley-

Heath, J. (Staffords., N. W.)

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

Heaton, John Henniker

Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

Dickson, Charles Scott

Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter

Morrell, George Herbert

Morris, Hn. Martin Henry F.

Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Mount, William Arthur

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thompson

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Round, James

Thornton, Percy M.

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Pemberton, John S. G.

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Tufnell, Lieut.-Colonel Edward

Pierpoint, Robert

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Valentia, Viscount

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Walker, Col. William Hall

Plummer, Walter R.

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Webb, Colonel William George

Pretyman, Ernest George

Seton-Karr, Henry

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks. E. R).

Purvis, Robert

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N).

Randles, John S.

Smith, H. C. (Nrth'mb. Tyneside

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Rankin, Sir James

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

Reid, James (Greenock)

Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Remnant, James Farquharson

Spear, John Ward

Renwick, George

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge)

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Ambrose, Robert

Healy, Timothy Michael

O'Dowd, John

Asher, Alexander

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N.

Boland, John

Jordon, Jeremiah

O'Malley, William

Boyle, James

Joyce, Michael

O'Mara, James

Burns, John

Kennedy, Patrick James

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Caldwell, James

Leamy, Edmund

O'Shee, James John

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Leigh, Sir Joseph

Power, Patrick Joseph

Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

Levy, Maurice

Reddy, M.

Channing, Francis Allston

Lundon, W.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Clancy, John Joseph

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Cogan, Denis J.

M'Dermott, Patrick

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Fadden, Edward

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Crean, Eugene

M'Govern, T.

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Cullinan, J.

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Sullivan, Donal

Daly, James

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Dalziel, James Henry

Moss, Samuel

Thomas, David Alfred (Merthyr)

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Murnaghan, George

Thompson, Dr. E C (Monagh'n N

Delany, William

Murphy, John

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

Dillon, John

Nannetti, Joseph P.

White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

Doogan, P. C.

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Duffy, William J.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary, Mid

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Flynn, James Christopher

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.)

Gilhooly, James

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Griffith, Ellis J.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Hammond, John

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Original Question put accordingly, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
MR. O'MARAsaid that he had moved an Amendment to substitute £100,000.
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member stated he was going to move that Amendment,
but he did not conclude his speech by moving it. Even if he had, I would not have accepted it, because he did not indicate what items amounting to £100,000 should be sanctioned.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 167; Noes, 80. (Division List No. 436.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch).

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J (Birm.

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Bignold, Arthur

Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r

Arrol, Sir William

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Chapman, Edward

Asher, Alexander

Brassey, Albert

Charrington, Spencer

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Bullard, Sir Harry

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Burdett-Coutts, W.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Purvis, Robert

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

Randles, John S.

Cranborne, Viscount

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Rankin, Sir James

Crossley, Sir Savile

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Reid, James (Greenock)

Davenport, William Bromley-

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

Remnant, James Farquharson

Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

Keswick, William

Renwick, George

Dickson, Charles Scott

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Ridley, Hn M. W. (Stalybridge)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Lawson, John Grant

Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Legge, Colonel Hon. Heneage

Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas Thomson

Duke, Henry Edward

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Robertson, Herbt. (Hackney)

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Leveson-Gower, Fred. N. S.

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Ropner, Col. Robert

Fergusson, Rt. Hn Sir J. (Manc'r

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Round, James

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.)

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Finch, George H.

Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Fisher, William Hayes

Macartney, Rt. Hon. W. G. E.

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Fison, Frederick William

Macdona, John Cumming

Seton-Karr, Henry

Fitzroy, Hon Edward Algernon

Maconochie, A. W.

Skewes-Cox, Thomas

Flower, Ernest

M'Arthur, Charles J (Liverpool)

Smith, A. H. (Hertford, East)

Forster, Henry William

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

Smith, H C (N'th'mb., Tyneside)

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S. W

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)

Gardner, Ernest

Majendie, James A. H.

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Spear, John Ward

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Mildmay, Francis Bingham

Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

Gordon, Maj. E.- (Tow'rH'ml'ts

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Gore, Hn G R C. Ormsby- (Salop.

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Goschen, George Joachim

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley

Goulding, Edward Alfred

More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Greville, Hon. Ronald

Morrell, George Herbert

Thornton, Percy M.

Groves, James Grimble

Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Hambro, Charles Eric

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward

Hamilton, Rt Hon Lord G (M'd'x

Mount, William Arthur

Valentia, Viscount

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert W.

Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

Walker, Col. Wm. Hall

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Warner, Thos. Courtenay T.

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Webb, Colonel William George

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.

Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.

Pemberton, John S. G.

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

Heaton, John Henniker

Pierpoint, Robert

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Hermon-Hodge, Rbt. Trotter

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Hope, J. F. (Sheffi'ld, Brightside

Plummer, Walter R.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Pretyman, Ernest George

Hoult, Joseph

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Griffith, Ellis J.

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

Ambrose, Robert

Hammond, John

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Boland, John

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Boyle, James

Healy, Timothy Michael

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Burns, John

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Caldwell, James

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Dowd, John

Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

Joyce, Michael

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Channing, Francis Allston

Kennedy, Patrick James

O'Kelly, Jas. (Roscommon, N.)

Clancy, John Joseph

Leamy, Edmund

O'Malley, William

Cogan, Denis J.

Leigh, Sir Joseph

O'Mara, James

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Levy, Maurice

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Crean, Eugene

Lundon, W.

O'Shee, James John

Cullinan, J.

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Daly, James

M'Dermott, Patrick

Reddy, M.

Dalziel, James Henry

M'Fadden, Edward

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

M'Govern, T.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Delany, William

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Roberts, John H. (Denbighsh.

Dillon, John

Moss, Samuel

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Doogan, P. C.

Murnaghan, George

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Duffy, William J

Murphy, John

Sullivan, Donal

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Flynn, James Christopher

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Gilhooly, James

Nussey, Thomas Willans

210

211

Thompson, Dr E C (Monagh'n, N

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

White, Patrick (Meath, North

Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.)

1. Resolved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned.

SCHEDULE.

Number of Vote.

Navy Services, 1899–1900. Votes.

Gross Expenditure.

Appropriations in Aid.

Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure.

Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure.

Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

1.

2.

3.

4.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

1

…

Wages, etc., of Officers, Seamen, and Boys, Coast Guard, and Royal Marines

—

29,559

17

0

—

5,078

14

0

2

…

Victualling and Clothing for the Navy

245,366

4

10

—

—

94,407

5

11

3

…

Medical Establishments and Services

—

29

16

11

—

1,745

7

6

4

…

Martial Law

2,601

17

8

—

—

40

17

2

5

…

Educational Services

—

5,001

12

6

—

395

7

3

6

…

Scientific Services

—

1,148

15

2

—

5,159

13

10

7

…

Royal Naval Reserves

42,243

13

1

—

95

3

3

8

…

Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc.:

Sec. 1

…

Personnel

64,419

0

2

—

—

240

9

11

Sec. 2

…

Matériel

809,951

11

11

—

—

126,088

17

4

Sec. 3

…

Contract Work

—

1,489,405

13

5

—

315

3

3

9

…

Naval Armaments

—

124,970

1

9

—

19,413

14

9

10

…

Works, Buildings, and Repairs at Home and A broad

—

40,256

2

7

—

10,865

15

8

11

…

Miscellaneous Effective Services

27,140

8

7

—

—

1,135

0

2

12

…

Admiralty Office

—

4,499

8

8

—

10

7

13

…

Half-pay, Reserved and Retired Pay

—

808

7

5

—

17

3

6

14

…

Naval and Marine Pensions, Gratuities, and Compassionate Allowances

—

10,130

5

1

—

118

17

10

15

…

Civil Pensions and Gratuities

—

1,759

1

7

—

25

4

7

16

…

Additional Naval Force for Service in Australasian Waters

42

16

0

—

—

42

0

0

Amount written off as irrecoverable

2,196

12

0

—

—

—

1,151,718

11

2

1,749,812

15

2

—

265,185

6

6

Net Surplus,

£598,094

4

0

Surplus,

£265,185

6

6

Surplus surrendered to the Exchequer

£863,279

10

6

[Mr. JEFFREYS (Hampshire, N.) took the Chair.]
Whereas it appears by the Army Appropriation Account for the year ended the 31st day of March, 1900, and the statement appended thereto, as follows, viz.:—

(a) That the gross expenditure for certain Army Services exceeded the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £950,384 16s. 6d., as shown in Column No. 1 of the Schedule hereto appended; while the gross expenditure for other Army Services fell short of the estimate of such expenditure by a total sum of £1,634,061 5s. 2d., as shown in Column No. 2 of the said appended Schedule; so that the gross actual expenditure for the whole of the Army Services fell short of the gross estimated expenditure by the net sum of £683,676 8s. 8d.;

(b) That the receipts in aid of certain Army Services fell short of the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £262,092 2s. 3d., as shown in Column No. 3 of the said appended Schedule; while the receipts in aid of other Army Services exceeded the estimate of such receipts by a total sum of £130,217 16s. 10d., as shown in Column No. 4 of the said appended Schedule; so that the total actual receipts in aid of the Grants for Army Services fell short of the total estimated receipts by the net sum of £131,874 5s. 5d.;

(c) That the resulting differences between the Exchequer Grants for Army Services and the net expenditure are as follows, viz.:—

£

s.

d.

Total Surpluses

1,437,483

17

3

Total Deficits

885,681

14

0

Net Surplus

£551,802

3

3

And whereas the Lords Commissioners of His Majesty's Treasury have temporarily authorised the application, in reduction of the net charge on Exchequer Grants for certain Army Services, of the whole of the sums received in excess of the estimated Appropriations-in-Aid, in respect of the same Services; and have also temporarily authorised the application of so much of the said total
214
surpluses on certain Grants for Army Services as is necessary to cover the said total deficits on other Grants for Army Services.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
MR. DILLONsaid the largest item in this schedule was £491,877 for provisions, forage, and other supplies. He called attention to certain scandals in connection with the contracts for meat supplied for the Army in South Africa. He had seen a statement in the public press that the Premier of Queensland had recently returned to Brisbane after a tour in Cape Colony, and that he had stated that at the Cape the troops were paying 11d. per lb. for mutton, which could be landed on the quay at Cape Town at 3d. per lb. In these circumstances the hon. Member did not wonder at this surreptitious and backdoor method of smuggling through the contract, because it was very natural that the Government should be desirous of keeping the whole thing in the dark, and treating this resolution as a purely formal matter. The transaction took place in the year 1899, and yet in his last Report the Comptroller and Auditor General stated that he had written a letter to the War Office asking whether a refund of 2d. per lb. was sufficient, and that no reply had yet been received. What was the true inwardness of the whole of this transaction? Had the Government investigated this question in the way they investigated the question of the Hungarian horses? Fortunately they got an opportunity of raising the question of the corruption and swindling that had been going on in Hungary. Was it a fact that Australian frozen mutton was landed at Cape Town at 3d. per lb., and that the contractors sold it to the British Government at 11d.? If that was a fact, it was monstrous, and if it was not a fact there ought to be a full explanation given why the Comptroller and Auditor General had not been able to get an answer from the War Office on this matter. The hon. Member also called attention to what was said by the Comptroller and Auditor General in regard to the saddles bought for the Rhodesian force. It appeared that saddles

215
which cost from £8 to £11 were afterwards sold at 30s. a piece. That might or might not he true, but if it was true it was a scandal. The average price paid for saddles supplied to the Rhodesian force was £4 a piece higher than the price paid by the War Office for saddles bought at the same time. He found that £4,338 had been paid with the sanction of the Treasury for the maintenance of troops called in to aid the civil power during the South Wales coal strike. It was a monstrous thing that this sum should be smuggled through the House of Commons. A question so grave ought to have been brought forward for discussion in Committee of Supply. In regard to the War Office scandals, to which attention had been called, so long as this House had to pay somebody ought to be held responsible for the jobbery and corruption which had taken place. He protested against the doctrine that a resolution of the kind now before the Committee, which was practically a Bill of Indemnity, was to be treated as a matter of course.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid the hon. Gentleman who raised a question arising out of the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General seemed to have forgotten that the Report was the subject of careful investigation by the public Accounts Committee, who had made a report to the House on the various matters brought before it. The hon. Gentleman asked whether any inquiry had been made by the Government into the statements contained in the Comptroller and Auditor General's Report, and the inferences he was pleased to draw from that Report. The Report was before the Public Accounts Committee, and the examination of the Army Estimates required no small portion of the time of the Committee during the present session. He would take in turn the items which the hon. Member had mentioned. There were two connected with the Imperial Yeomanry—one regarding purchase of saddlery, and the other the engagement of a ship. When the Imperial Yeomanry was formed in the first instance the War Office, as everybody knew, was working under enormous pressure, and in the early stages the Yeomanry Committee carried out all the arrangements of the Imperial
216
Yeomanry. In the matter of saddlery he doubted whether they could have made a much better bargain than they did. At the time the whole saddlery trade of the country was working under enormous pressure. The Government factories and private factories were at their busiest, and when additional orders had to be placed for the Yeomanry it was natural, and indeed inevitable, that they should be placed at a high price. In regard to the "Louisiana," the Yeomanry Committee undertook on behalf of the War Office the transport of the force, and that ship was chartered for the purpose. Later on it was felt to be desirable that the transport of the Yeomanry and all the other troops by sea should be in the hands of the Admiralty. That department had more experience of transport, and they did not shrink from the responsibility of sending out the Yeomanry by another vessel, the Yeomanry Committee having from inexperience made a mistake in the matter. In regard to the payment for troops sent to South Wales to aid the civil power, the hon. Member was not aware of the circumstances. An attempt was made to recover the cost from the county rates, but the decision of the High Court was that they were not liable, and the expense had to be met by the Government. A more serious case mentioned by the hon. Gentleman had reference to the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General in regard to the contract made in South Africa just at the outbreak of the war. When he read the Report of the Comptroller and Auditor General he took as serious a view as the hon. Gentleman, but he should not have ventured without further information to scatter round so freely gross charges of corruption against officers of His Majesty's Army. This matter was carefully considered by the Public Accounts. Committee, and they had information before them which the Comptroller and Auditor General had not at the time he was obliged to present his Report to Parliament. The hon. Gentleman stated that the Comptroller and Auditor General had been obliged to complain to Parliament that he had been refused information by the War Office. What he said at the time he made his Report was that he had not received a reply to his letter,

217
but by the time he came before the Public Accounts Committee he was in possession of full information on the subject. The Committee heard the Comptroller and Auditor General and also the Accountant General of the War Office, and then at the desire of the Committee the chairman summoned the officer who made the contract, and who had in the interval returned home to England. Colonel Richardson appeared before the Committee, and they therefore had full information on the subject. What was the story? What were the facts? At the outbreak of the war they were called upon to provide supplies for very large bodies of troops in the field. It was most urgently indispensable that those supplies should be Provided, and the officer's duty was not to let anything interfere with the proper supply of food for the troops. He made a contract for either fresh meat or frozen meat. Frozen meat was cheaper than fresh meat, but it could not be supplied except when the troops were close to the railway, where the refrigerating cars could be kept. If the contractors were obliged to supply not frozen meat but live meat, they would also have to supply drivers and butchers to accompany the Army in the field, and they would have to take the risk of loss, not from capture, but from the cattle being driven about with troops on the march. Owing to the long delay which took place in the advance of the troops beyond the Modder River, it was possible for the contractors to supply refrigerated meat for a long time, and in a much greater proportion than anybody had conceived possible at the time when the contract was made, and the refrigerated meat being cheaper the contractors made a much bigger profit than they expected. He would say at that point that it was not merely in the interests of the contractors to supply refrigerated meat, but also in the interests of the Army. The evidence was that the soldiers preferred it, that it was on the whole better meat, and that by supplying refrigerated instead of fresh meat the difficulty and danger of having slaughter houses in the camps and having offal to deal with in a hot climate were avoided. Therefore the supply of refrigerated meat was in the interests of the soldiers as well as of the contractors, who, by reason of the long delay on the Modder River,
218
were able to make profits which were not believed to be possible. The contract was air in itself, and was well understood by all concerned in South Africa.
MR. COURTENAY WARNER: asked if Colonel Richardson understood that the contract included frozen meat.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid that the Report of the Committee stated that Colonel Richardson, who made the contract, distinctly stated that it was fully understood on both sides to include frozen meat.
MR. O'MARA: asked if the hon. Member would read paragraph four of the Report.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he would read it in good time. The hon. Member who raised the question made a most serious charge and presented his case in a most serious aspect. He accused the Government of hiding facts from the knowledge of the House, and under the circumstances he would put the story before the Committee, and he thought it was not too much to ask that he should be allowed to tell it in his own way. It was perfectly well understood in South Africa by both sides that refrigerated meat might be supplied if it could be supplied in good condition, but that was not understood when the Papers came to the War Office, although it was proved to their satisfaction afterwards, and to the satisfaction of the Public Accounts Committee. Having regard to that misconception on the part of the War Office, and still more to the fact that they had been able to supply much larger quantities of refrigerated meat than they expected, the contractors made much larger profits than they anticipated and they offered to return 2d. per pound. The hon. Member who raised the question said that had not yet been repaid. That was a mistake. The whole of the amount had been repaid. The hon. Member was misled—he admitted several people had been misled—by the report of the Controller and Auditor-General, written admittedly at a time when he had imperfect information, and when he had not all the facts before him. The hon. Member suggested that that 2d. per pound was nothing more than the duty on imported meat, which the Cape Government had suspended owing to the outbreak of hostilities. That was

219
not so. Owing to the scarcity of food in South Africa, the duty on meat was taken off, but the duty was never charged on Government stores, and therefore the Government had the full benefit of the 2d. per pound in addition to the remission of the duty which was common to all stores imported into South Africa for His Majesty's services. He had dealt with all the points raised by the hon. Member except the fact to which he called attention, that at the time this contract was made for meat for the troops at 11d. per pound the Navy and the troops were obtaining refrigerated meat at the Cape at 5¾d. per pound. That was perfectly true. But that meat was obtained in the first place under a contract made months before war was imminent, and before there was any appearance of war. Hon. members would understand that the appearance of war naturally brought about a great change in the market for those commodities—so great a change that the scarcity of foodstuffs obliged the Cape Government to remove the duty. In the second place the meat was supplied to the Navy at Simonstown, and to the troops in the Cape Town district, while the contract at 11d. per pound was for meat to be supplied to the troops wherever the troops might be. That included the cost of carrying it up country, and also the cost of drivers and purveyors marching with the troops. The price of meat supplied up country could not be expected to be the same as that of meat supplied close to the seaboard under a contract made long before war broke out. The Public Accounts Committee—and he would be borne out in what he was about to state by the right hon. Gentleman the Chairman of that Committee—gave very close attention to the matter. The Committee came to the case with suspicion, and they felt it was a case for inquiry. The Report stated that the Committee were of opinion that Colonel Richardson was justified in making the contract, but that he should have contracted at different prices for frozen meat and fresh meat, and that the conditions of the contract should have been made more clear to the War Office. Looking at what had occurred with the wisdom which came from looking backwards instead of forwards, the Committee said that under
220
the particular circumstances of the campaign Colonel Richardson would have made a better bargain if he had taken separate prices for the two classes of meat, instead of taking a common price. But if the troops had moved as quickly as was at first expected, and if they had moved earlier away from the railway, the bargain which Colonel Richardson made would have been a very good one for the country. It was only because the troops delayed for a long time astride the railway that the contract turned out less favourable that it would have done had the two classes of meat been contracted for at different prices. In justification of Colonel Richardson's action, he might add that a contract for refrigerated meat for the troops had never been made before. It worked extremely well, and gave great satisfaction; and on the whole, acting under extremely difficult circumstances and very great responsibility, Colonel Richardson discharged the task which devolved upon him with great ability and great skill, and the troops in South Africa in the early part of the war owed much to his care and attention.
MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid he wished to point out that the Vote was of a more serious character than in previous years, and that the Admiralty and the War Office had dealt with much larger sums than formerly. There was one large item of £5,000, regarding which the Public Accounts Committee stated:—
"While acknowledging that the payments were necessary under existing circumstances it is considered that they should not he made in future without parliamentary sanction.
There was another case in which the War Office went off in a hurry and bought seventy German guns, which turned out not to be very good. They did not come into the Estimates, but were bought out of the Transport Vote. There were likely to be more cases of a similar character in the future, and he hoped that the Treasury would be more careful.
MR. DILLONsaid that the Secretary to the Treasury did him an injustice in reference to the nature of the contract. The Comptroller and Auditor General stated that the contract did not mention frozen meat, that it was understood at the War Office to be for live meat, and

221
that 3,000,000 lbs. of frozen meat had been supplied under it.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he thought the hon. Gentleman was misled by taking the statement of the Comptroller and Auditor General before he had all the facts before him. The Comptroller and Auditor General gave very full evidence before the Public Accounts Committee, and in that evidence he qualified a great deal of what he said in his statement. It was made perfectly clear to the Committee that refrigerated meat was included in the contract. The conditions of the War Office in reference to contracts for live meat only were added at the end of the contract, and that might have misled the Comptroller and Auditor General.
MR. DILLONsaid that the hon. Gentleman did not refer at all to what drew his attention to the matter first, namely, the statement of the Premier of Queensland, who had returned from a visit to South Africa, He said that the contractors got refrigerated meat from Australia at 3d. a lb.
MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAINsaid he had not seen the Premier's statement. He would point out, however, that the price of meat at Cape Town was only a small proportion of the price up country, especially if the meat had to be supplied not merely at fixed places but to wherever the troops moved.
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER resumed the Chair.]
MR. O'MARAsaid he had the strongest objection to the resolution, as it conveyed a very false impression. There had been no saving of £551,000 as was suggested, and it was a gross abuse to submit such a resolution without any explanation. As a matter of fact, there was not any surplus at all, and he based his statement on the third report of the Public Accounts Committee. It struck him since he came into this House that the accounts were presented in a way which would disgrace any big trading company in the country. They reminded
him of what the lamented Barney Barnato did when he floated his bank. There was a good deal of trying to hide from members of the House all unpleasant details, and it was only by delving into the accounts that they could bring to light any of the ugly facts which would bear very little comment. Faithful soldiers of the Army for whom money had been voted had not been expended. There was at the Treasury at the credit of the Paymaster General of the Army £1,000,000, and there were unfortunate soldiers who had come home and who were now starving in the streets of London. It was a matter of common knowledge that soldiers who were entitled to medals would not go to be presented with them by the King until they received their arrears of pay. Questions on the subject had been asked in the House, and it was admitted to be a fact. He heard the Financial Secretary say that these soldiers could only be paid a quarter of the amount due, and that this would be done as a special concession. These soldiers and their families were starving because, as the Financial Secretary said, the money could not be paid until the pay sheets came from South Africa, Referring to the allowances of £1,000 of secret service money to the generals in South Africa, the hon. Member said he had no doubt this would be used for corrupting and seducing from their allegiance as many Boers as the money would corrupt. This was the only way in which the secret service money could possibly be used. He would content himself by moving the following Amendment, "to leave out after 'question.'"
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.)moved that the Question be now put.
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 148; Noes, 72. (Division List No. 437.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

Brassey, Albert

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Bullard, Sir Harry

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

Arrol, Sir William

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Bignold, Arthur

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich.

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Hermon-Hodge, R. Trotter

Pretyman, Ernest George

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc's

Hope, J. F. (Sheff'd, Brightside

Purvis, Robert

Chapman, Edward

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Randles, John S.

Charrington, Spencer

Hoult, Joseph

Rankin, Sir James

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Reid, James (Greenock)

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Ridley, Hon M. W. (Stalybridge

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh)

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Keswick, William

Ritchie, Rt Hon. Chas. Thomson

Cranborne, Viscount

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Crossley, Sir Savile

Lawson, John Grant

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Davenport, William Bromley-

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Round, James

Dickson, Charles Scott

Leveson-Gower, F. N. S.

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Loder, Gerald W. Erskine

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.)

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth)

Smith, H C (N'rthumb Tyn'side

Finch, George H.

Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. E.

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Madona, John Cumming

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Maconochie, A. W.

Spear, John Ward

Fisher, William Hayes

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

Fitzroy, Hon. E. Algernon

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

Stanley, Hon Arthur (Ormskirk

Flower, Ernest

M' Killop, James (Stirlingshire

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Forster, Henry William

Majendie, James A. H.

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W. F.

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Gardner, Ernest

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Godson, Sir Augustus F.

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Valentia, Viscount

Goschen, Hon. G. Joachim

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

Walker, Col. William Hall

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Morgan, David J (W'lthamstow

Webb, Col. William George

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

Morrell, George Herbert

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Groves, James Grimble

Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

Wilson, A Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)

Hambro, Charles Eric

Mount, William Arthur

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.

Hamilton, Rt Hn Ld. G. (Midd'x

Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm.

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Nicol, Donald Ninian

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Haslett, Sir James Horner

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Heath, J. (Staffords., N. W.)

Pierpoint, Robert

Heaton, John Henniker

Plummer, Walter R.

NOES.

Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Ambrose, Robert

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Healy, Timothy Michael

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Boland, John

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Boyle, James

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

O'Dowd, John

Burns, John

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Caldwell, James

Joyce, Michael

O'Kelly, J. (Roscommon, N.)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Kennedy, Patrick James

O'Malley, William

Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

Leamy, Edmund

O'Mara, James

Clancy, John Joseph

Levy, Maurice

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Cogan, Denis J.

Lundon, W.

O'Shee, James John

Condon, Thomas Joseph

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Crean, Eugene

M'Dermott, Patrick

Reddy, M.

Cullinan, J.

M'Fadden, Edward

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Daly, James

M'Govern, T.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Delany, William

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Dillon, John

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Sullivan, Donal

Doogan, P. C.

Moss, Samuel

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Duffy, William J.

Murnaghan, George

White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Murphy, John

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Flynn, James Christopher

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Gilhooly, James

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Wilson, Henry J (Yorks, W. R.)

Griffith, Ellis J.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

TELLERS FOR THE NOES.—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Hammond, John

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Question put accordingly, "That the application of such sums be sanctioned."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 153; Noes, 67. (Division List No. 438.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Goschen, Hon. George J.

Mount, William Arthur

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute)

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Groves, James Grimble

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Arrol, Sir William

Hambro, Charles Eric

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Mid'x)

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robt. Wm.

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Pierpoint, Robert

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Plummer, Walter R.

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

Pretyman, Ernest George

Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D.

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col, Edward

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Heath, Arthur H. (Hanley)

Purvis, Robert

Bignold, Arthur

Heath, Jas. (Staffords., N. W.)

Randles, John S.

Blundell, Col. Henry

Heaton, John Henniker

Rankin, Sir James

Brassey, Albert

Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

Reid, James (Greenock)

Bullard; Sir Harry

Hope, J. F. (Sh'ffi'ld, Brightside)

Remnant, James Farquharson

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

Cavendish, V C W. (Derbyshire

Horniman, Frederick John

Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hoult, Joseph

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T.

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r

Johnstone, H. (Sussex)

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Chapman, Edward

Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh

Round, James

Charrington, Spencer

Keswick, William

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Lawson, John Grant

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alex.

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

Cranborne, Viscount

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Smith, H C (N'rth'mb, Tyneside

Crossley, Sir Savile

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)

Davenport, W. Bromley-

Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand

Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Spear, John Ward

Dickson, Charles Scott

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth)

Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E.

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore

Macdona, John Cumming

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Maconochie, A. W.

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Finch, George H.

M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Majendie, James A. H.

Valentia, Viscount

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Walker, Col. William Hall

Fisher William Hayes

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Webb, Col. William George

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Flower, Ernest

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Wilson, A. Stanley (Yorks, E. R.

Forster, Henry William

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

Foster, P. S. (Warwick, S. W.

More, Robt. J. (Shropshire)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Gardner, Ernest

Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Godson, Sir Augustus Fred.

Morrell, George Herbert

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

Morris, Hon. Martin H. F.

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Doogan, P. C.

M'Dermott, Patrick

Ambrose, Robert

Duffy, William J.

M'Fadden, Edward

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

M'Govern, T.

Boland, John

Flynn, James Christopher

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Boyle, James

Gilhooby, James

Moss, Samuel

Burns, John

Griffith, Ellis J.

Murnaghan, George

Caldwell, James

Hammond, John

Murphy, John

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Hayden, John Patrick

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

Healy, Timothy Michael

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Clancy, John Joseph

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid.)

Cogan, Denis J.

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Joyce, Michael

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Crean, Eugene

Kennedy, Patrick James

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Cullinan, J.

Leamy, Edmund

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Daly, James

Levy, Maurice

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Delany, William

Lundon, W.

O'Dowd, John

Dillon, John

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

226

227

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

O'Malley, William

Redmond, William (Clare)

Wilson, Henry J. (Yorks, W. R.)

O'Mara, James

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Sullivan, Donal

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

O'Shee, James John

Thomas, David Alf. (Merthyr)

Power, Patrick Joseph

White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

Reddy, M.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

2. Resolved, That the application of such sums be sanctioned.

SCHEDULE.

No. of Vote.

Army Services, 1899–1900. Votes.

Gross Expenditure.

Appropriations in Aid.

Excesses of Actual over Estimated Gross Expenditure.

Surpluses of Estimated over Actual Gross Expenditure.

Deficiencies of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

Surpluses of Actual as compared with Estimated Receipts.

1.

2.

3.

4.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

£

s.

d.

1

Pay, etc., of Army (General Staff, Regiments, Reserve, and Departments)

—

1,086,432

15

4

129,050

6

7

—

2

Medical Establishments: Pay, etc.

29,480

6

5

—

—

425

0

10

3

Militia: Pay, Bounty, etc.

—

250,294

11

1

—

2,916

8

5

4

Yeomanry Cavalry: Pay and Allowances

—

4,661

5

5

3

0

0

—

5

Volunteer Corps: Pay and Allowances

—

10,664

15

2

—

736

15

8

6

Transport and Remounts

110,470

9

5

—

—

38,237

8

3

7

Provisions, Forage, and other Supplies

491,877

10

11

—

—

58,983

5

11

8

Clothing Establishments and Services

88,006

0

11

—

58,404

3

6

—

9

Warlike and other Stores: Supply and Repair

201,370

16

4

—

—

770

3

2

10

Works, Buildings, and Repairs: Cost, including Staff for Engineer Services

—

224,270

4

7

51,015

13

1

—

11

Establishments for Military Education

1,411

12

3

—

—

3,729

11

7

12

Miscellaneous Effective Services

23,058

8

5

—

—

24,197

15

10

13

War Office: Salaries and Miscellaneous Charges

3,308

10

9

—

—

130

1

0

14

Non-effective Charges for Officers, etc.

—

54,553

3

6

20,962

4

6

—

15

Non-effective Charges for Men, etc.

—

3,184

10

1

2,656

14

7

—

16

Superannuation, Compensation, and Compassion ate Allowances

643

2

8

—

—

91

6

2

Balances irrecoverable

751

18

5

—

—

—

950,384

16

6

1,634,06

5

2

262,092

2

3

130,217

16

10

Net Surplus,

£683,676

8

8

Net Deficit,

£131,874

5

5

Surplus surrendered to the Exchequer

£551,802

3

3

Question put, "That the Chairman do report these Resolutions to the House."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 147; Noes, 70. (Division List No. 439.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Murray, Gluts. J. (Coventry)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

O'Neill, Hon. Robt. Torrens

Arrol, Sir William

Groves, James Grimble

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Hambro, Charles Eric

Pierpoint, Robert

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

Hummer, Walter R.

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm

Pretyman, Ernest George

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Purvis, Robert

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.)

Randles, John S.

Bignold, Arthur

Heaton, John Henniker

Rankin, Sir James

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

Reid, James (Greenock)

Brassey, Albert

Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

Remnant, James Farquharson

Bullard, Sir Harry

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge)

Hoult, Joseph

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

Round, James

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

Royds, Clement Molyneux

(Chapman, Edward

Keswick, William

Charrington, Spencer

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Lawson, John Grant

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tyn'sd.

Cranborne, Viscount

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks)

Crossley, Sir Savile

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristo S.

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Spear, John Ward

Davenport, William Bromley-

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chatham

Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

Dickson, Charles Scott

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Dasraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

Strutt, Hon. Chas. Hedley

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

Macdona, John Cumming

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

Maconochie, A. W.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

Tufnell, Lt.-Col. Edward

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Majendie, James A. H.

Valentia, Viscount

Finch, George H.

Massey Mainwaring, Hn. W. F

Walker, Col. William Hall

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Webb, Col. William George

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Fisher, William Hayes

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Wilson, A Stanley (Yorks, E. R.)

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

Flower, Ernest

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Forster, Henry William

Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick, S W

Morrell, George Herbert

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

Gardner, Ernest

Mount, William Arthur

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Boyle, James

Ambrose, Robert

Boland, John

Burns, John

Caldwell, James

Jones, William (Carnarvons.)

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

Joyce, Michael

O Dowd, John

Clancy, John Joseph

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Cogan, Denis J.

Kennedy, Patrick James

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N

Condon, Thomas Joseph

O'Malley, William

Crean, Eugene

Leamy, Edmund

O'Mara, James

Cullinan, J.

Levy, Maurice

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Lundon, W.

O'Shee, James John

Daly, James

Delany, William

Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Dillon, John

M'Dermott, Patrick

Doogan, P. C.

M'Fadden, Edward

Reddy, M.

Duffy, William J.

M'Govern, T.

Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Redmond, William (Clare)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

Flynn, James Christopher

Moss, Samuel

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Murnaghan, George

Sullivan, Donal

Gilhooly, James

Murphy, John

Griffith, Ellis J.

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Hammond, John

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

Hayden, John Patrick

Nussey, Thomas Willans

White, Patrick (Meath, N.)

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Healy, Timothy Michael

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Resolutions to be reported to-morrow.

WAYS AND MEANS.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the Service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, the sum of £86,756,285 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)
MR. WILLIAM REDMONDmoved to report progress. He appealed to the First Lord of the Treasury not to proceed with further business at that hour in the morning (4.45). It was not reasonable to ask the Committee to assent to a Vote of £86,000,000 at that hour, when there was not a fair opportunity for reasonable discussion. He appealed to the First Lord of the Treasury even if he had no consideration for the views of the Irish members, if he believed that he was completely right and that they were completely wrong, for the credit of his own party and the House of Commons, not to perpetrate what was little short of a scandal. The right hon.
232
Gentleman had succeeded in doing what no Minister had ever succeeded in doing in the history of Parliament—he had not only stifled discussion but had prevented hon. members voting against Estimates to which they objected. He therefore appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to accept his motion to report progress. After all, a Minister who had the courage to outrage all the proceedings of Parliament ought to be strong enough not to allow himself to be intimidated by the cries of hon. Gentlemen behind him. If the right hon. Gentleman would not agree to adjourn he hoped his hon. friends would resist the attempt which was being made to intimidate them. If they were forced to fight they were quite prepared for it, in the absolute consciousness and belief that they were in no way responsible for what had occurred. They were not responsible for the new rule, or for voting sixty-seven millions of the taxpayers' money without discussion. He hoped that he would live to see another Government in power who would put into force to the fullest extent, when hon. Gentlemen opposite were in Opposition, the scandalous and outrageous rules which were now degrading Parliament. He begged to move to report progress.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. William Redmond.)
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: There have been many interchanges between hon. Gentlemen opposite and ourselves with regard to transactions for the last six hours, but there can be no difference with regard to the motion now before the Committee. The hon. Gentleman appeals to parliamentary practice and precedent, and I can assure him that Parliamentary practice and precedent are unbroken, and that the resolution now put from the Chair has always been put and agreed to without discussion, it being a necessary preliminary to the introduction of the Appropriation Bill at the end of the session. This is not a Vote for money, as the hon. Gentleman seems to suppose. It has that appearance, but it is not, and so far as I know, no question of controversy is raised or can be raised by this formal stage of the Appropriation Bill. Under these circumstances I hope the hon. Gentleman will not persist in his motion.
MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he had a very good response when the right hon. Gentleman spoke to him of parliamentary practice and precedent.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The hon. Gentleman spoke to me about it,
MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid that the right hon. Gentleman answered him by saying that the motion was in strict accordance with parliamentary precedent. That was not so, because the right hon. Gentleman could not point to a single year in the whole history of Parliament where proceedings such as had taken place that night had occurred. There was never an occasion in which Supply had been rushed through as it was that night. It was, therefore, no use appealing to parliamentary precedent, as parliamentary precedent had been outraged by what had occurred.
MR. DILLONsaid there was no justification for taking the motion that night.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I have no intention of taking any Bills to-night, but this is a formal resolution.
MR. DILLONsaid that there was no object to be gained by pressing the resolution. It would not expedite business, and it would not make any difference whether the resolution were passed that night or the next night. There might be circumstances under which it might make a day's difference in the length of the session, but they did not exist at at present. The First Lord of the Treasury himself confessed that he had abandoned all hope of being able to prorogue Parliament on Saturday week, and, therefore, there was no object in taking the resolution that night. As he understood it, the motion for the Appropriation Bill had never been introduced until the Supply for the year had been voted. [Mr. T. M. HEALY: That was the old practice.] That was the old practice. If the right hon. Gentleman could state that by taking the resolution to-night he could adjourn on Saturday week, he could understand it, but he had abandoned that notion, and there was therefore no hurry for the Appropriation Bill, as far as the convenience of the House was concerned. The system which was now being adopted did not facilitate business or tend towards preserving the dignity of debate, and never would.
MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in his place and claimed to move, "That the question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 140; Noes, 70. (Division List No. 440.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin

Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Bentinck, Lord Henry

Chapman, Edward

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Bignold, Arthur

Charrington, Spencer

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Blundell, Colonel Henry C.

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Brassey, Albert

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Arrol, Sir William

Bullard, Sir Harry

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow)

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbys.

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Cecil, Evelyn (Ast5n Manor)

Cranborne, Viscount

Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Crossley, Sir Savile

Balfour, K. R. (Christchurch)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Davenport, W. Bromley

Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

Purvis, Robert

Dickson, Charles Scott

Keswick, William

Randles, John S.

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Lawson, John Grant

Ranklin, Sir James

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Reid, James (Greenock)

Doxford, Sir W. Theodore

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Remnant, James Farquharson

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

Fellowes, Hon. A. Edward

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Ridley, S Forde (Bethnal Green)

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Finch, George H.

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

Finlay, Sir Robert Banuatyne

Lowther, C. (Cumb. Eskdale)

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Fisher, William Hayes

Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E.

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Fitzroy, Hon. Edward Algernon

Macdona, John Cumming

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Flower, Ernest

Maconochie, A. W.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick S W.

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Scott, Sir S. (Marlebone, W.)

Gardner, Ernest

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

Smith, Abel, H. (Hertford, East

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

M'Killop, James (Stirlingsh.

Smith H C (North'mb. Tyneside

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Majendie, James H. H.

Smith, Jas. Parker (Lanarks.)

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, South

Massey Mainwairing, Hn. W F.

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Spear, John Ward

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Groves, James Grimble

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Hambro, Charles Eric

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Hamilton, Rt Hn L'rd G (Mi'dl'x

Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Morrell, George Herbert

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Morris, Hon Martin Henry F.

Valentia, Viscount

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Mount, William Arthur

Walker, Col. William Hall

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

Webb, Col. William George

Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

Heaton, John Henniker

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.)

Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Pierpoint, Robert

Hoult, Joseph

Plummer, Walter R.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Pretyman, Ernest George

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Ambrose, Robert

Healy, Timothy Michael

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Boland, John

Jones, William (Carnarv'nshire

O'Dowd, John

Boyle, James

Jordan, Jermiah

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Burns, John

Joyce, Michael

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

Caldwell, James

Kennedy, Patrick James

O'Malley, William

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Leamy, Edmund

O'Mara, James

Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

Levy, Maurice

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Clancy, John Joseph

Lundon, W.

O'Shee, James John

Cogan, Denis J.

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Dermott, Patrick

Reddy, M.

Crean, Eugene

M'Fadden, Edward

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Cullinan, J.

M'Govern, T.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Daly, James

Mansfield, Horace Rendell

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Delany, William

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Sullivan, Donald

Dillon, John

Moss, Samuel

Thomas, David Alfred (Merth'r

Doogan, P. C.

Murnaghan, George

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Duffy, Willam J.

Murphy, John

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Flynn, James Christopher

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Gilhooly, James

Nussey, Thomas Willans

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Griffith, Ellis J.

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid

Hammond, John

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Question put accordingly, "That the Chairman do report Progress; and ask leave to sit again."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 70; Noes, 140. (Division List No. 441.)

AYES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E

Boland, John

Caldwell, James

Ambrose, Robert

Boyle, James

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Burns, John

Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

Clancy, John Joseph

Kennedy, Patrick James

O'Dowd, John

Cogan, Denis J.

Leamy, Edmund

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Levy, Maurice

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon N

Crean, Eugene

Lundon, W.

O'Malley, William

Cullinan, J.

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

O'Mara, James

Daly, James

M'Dermott, Patrick

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Delany, William

M'Fadden, Edward

O'Shee, James John

Dillon, John

M'Govern, T.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Doogan, P. C.

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Reddy, M.

Duffy, William J.

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Moss, Samuel

Redmond, William (Clare)

Flynn, James Christopher

Murnaghan, George

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Gilhooly, James

Murphy, J.

Sullivan, Donal

Griffith, Ellis J.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Thomas, David Alfred (Merth'r

Hammond, John

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Hayden, John Patrick

Nussey, Thomas Willans

White, Patrick (Meath North

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Md

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Healy, Timothy Michael

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

O'Connor, James (Wicklow W.

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Joyce, Michael

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

NOES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F.

Gardner, Ernest

Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederi'k

Mount, William Arthur

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Gordon, J. (Londonderry South

Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Arrol, Sir William

Goulding, Edward Alfred

O'Neill, Hon. R. Torrens

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Greene, W Raymond- (Cambs.)

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Groves, James Grimble

Pierpoint, Robert

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Hambro, Charles Eric

Plummer, Walter R.

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

Pretyman, Ernest George

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edw.

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Purvis, Robert

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Randles, John S.

Bignold, Arthur

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Ranken, Sir James

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Heath, James (Staffords. N. W.

Reid, James (Greenock

Brassey, Albert

Heaton, John Henniker

Remnant, J. Farquharson

Bullard, Sir Harry

Hermon Hodge, Robert Trotter

Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybrdge

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hope, J. F. (Sheffield Brightside

Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Hornby, Sir Wm. Henry

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. Thomson

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hoult, Joseph

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Chamberlain, J. Austin (Worc'r

Kenyon, Hn. Geo. T. (Denbigh)

Sackville, Col. S. G Stopford-

Chapman, Edward

Keswick, William

Sadler, Col. S. Alexander

Charrington, Spencer

Lawson, John Grant

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Smith, A. H. (Hertford, East)

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N S.

Smith, H. C. (North'mb. Tynsd.

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

Loder, Gerald W. (Erskine)

Smith, J. Parker (Lanarks.)

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesh'm

Smith, Hon. W. F D. (Strand

Cranborne, Viscount

Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Bristol, S.

Spear, John Ward

Crossley, Sir Savile

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Spencer, E. (W. Bromwich)

Davenport, W. Bromley-

Loyd, Archie, Kirkman

Stanley, Hn. A. (Ormskirk)

Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

Macartney, Rt Hn. W. G Ellison

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.

Dickson, Charles Scott

Macdona, John Cumming

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

M'aconochie, A. W.

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. M.

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Doxford, Sir William Theodore

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim E.

Valentia, Viscount

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

Walker, Col. William Hall

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

Majendie, James A. H.

Webb, Col. William George

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W F.

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

Finch, George H.

Molville, Beresford Valentine

Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyue

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Wilson, J. W. (Worc'tersh. N.

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Fisher, William Hayes

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

FitzRoy, Hn. Edward Algernon

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Flower, Ernest

Morgan, David J (Walthmst'w

Foster, Philip S. (Warwick S. W

Morrell, George Herbert

MR. A. J. BALFOURclaimed, "That the Original Question be now put."
MR. JOHN REDMONDasked whether, as the question had not been discussed at all, the Chairman could put the closure.
*THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think it is unfair to put it under the circumstances.
MR. JOHN REDMOND: The question has not been discussed.
*THE CHAIRMAN: I do not know what discussion is possible.
MR. T. M. HEALY: On a point of order, I wish to ask you, Sir, whether there is any precedent for closuring the Appropriation Bill at any stage?
MR. JOHN REDMOND: Precedents do not matter!
*THE CHAIRMAN: I am afraid I cannot answer that now.
Original Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 141; Noes, 68. (Division List No. 442.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

Gardner, Ernest

Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

Mount, William Arthur

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Murray, Rt. Hn A. Graham (Bute

Arnold-Forster, H. O.

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Arrol, Sir William

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Groves, James Grimble

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Hambro, Charles Eric

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

Hamilton, Rt. Hn L'rd G (Midd'x

Pierpoint, Robert

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Plummer, Walter R.

Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benjamin

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Pretyman, Ernest George

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Bignold, Arthur

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Purvis, Robert

Blundell, Col. Henry

Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.

Randles, John S.

Brassey, Albert

Heaton, John Henniker

Rankin, Sir James

Bullard, Sir Harry

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Reid, James (Greenock)

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

Remnant, James Farquharson

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Hoult, Joseph

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

Kenyon, Hon Geo. T. (Denbigh)

Ropner, Colonel Robert

(Chapman, Edward

Keswick, William

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Charrington, Spencer

Lawson, John Grant

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Leveson-Gower, Fr'derick N. S.

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Smith, H C (North'mb Tyneside

Cranborne, Viscount

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Crossley, Sir Savile

Lowther, C. (Climb., Eskdale)

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Davenport, William Bromley-

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Spear, John Ward

Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. Ellison

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich)

Dickson, Charles Scott

Macdona, John Cumming

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Maconochie, A. W.

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Durning Lawrence, Sir Edwin

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Valentia, Viscount

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Majendie, James A. H.

Walker, Col. William Hall

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn W. F.

Webb, Colonel William George

Finch, George H.

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Wilson, A. Stanley (York E. R.)

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

Fisher, William Hayes

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Flower, Ernest

Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W.

Morrell, George Herbert

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E)

Boland, John

Caldwell, James

Ambrose, Robert

Boyle, James

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Burns, John

Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

Clancy, John Joseph

Joyce, Michael

O'Dowd, John

Cogan, Denis J.

Kennedy, Patrick James

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Loamy, Edmund

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

Crean, Eugene

Levy, Maurice

O'Malley, William

Cullinan, J.

Lundon, W.

O'Mara, James

Daly, James

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Delany, William

M'Dermott, Patrick

O'Shee, James John

Dillon, John

M'Fadden, Edward

Power, Patrick Joseph

Doogan, P. C.

M'Govern, T.

Reddy, M.

Daffy, William J.

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Moss, Samuel

Redmond, William (Clare)

Flynn, James Christopher

Murnaghan, George

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Gilhooly, James

Murphy, John

Sullivan, Donal

Griffith, Ellis J.

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Hammond, John

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

White, Luke (York, E. K.)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Mid

White, Patrick (Meath, North

Hayne, Ht. Hn. Charles Seale-

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Healy, Timothy Michael

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.

Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to His Majesty for the Service of the year ending on the 31st day of March, 1902, the sum of £86,756,285 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.
Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report the resolution to the House."
MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he understood that the Chairman was about to put the question that the resolution be reported to the House. The closure motion clearly did not cover that.
*THE CHAIRMAN: The motion is a purely formal one, and it would he quite contrary to all practice and precedent to discuss it, although the House might divide upon it.
MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that the motion to report progress had been discussed on a hundred occasions. He submitted he was entitled to assert his right to speak on any question put from the Chair. A question having been put from the Chair, it was a great innovation to suggest that hon. members were not entitled to discuss it. They had sat through the night in great good humour on both sides, but it was unfair that they who had borne the heat and burden of the day should now be denied audience. The First Lord of the Treasury had inaugurated a procedure which if the
242
gas had not been turned off he would have called the Cecilian vespers—
*THE CHAIRMAN: I did not interrupt the hon. Gentleman because he stated that he knew of a hundred occasions on which similar debates had taken place; but it is perfectly clear that the debate must be strictly relevant to the question that I report the resolution to the House. The hon. Member cannot go back on the resolution.
MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he agreed. If he had imagined for a moment that the right of a man to speak on the motion would have been challenged he would have been prepared to quote precedents from Hansard. The impatience of the Treasury Bench was most unusual. They had got all the money they wanted, and they would have a garden party on Saturday. The steps which had been taken by the right hon. Gentleman to closure the debate—
*THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman is not entitled to go back on the closure of the debate. That was the action of the Committee. I must invite the hon. Gentleman to confine himself strictly to the question as to whether or not I report the resolution to the House.
MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he did not desire to infringe the rules of debate. He would merely state that he would oppose the motion on the ground of the

243
application of the closure to the formal stage of a Bill, which, no matter what business had been before the House, had always been treated as a free and open motion, in the discussion of which every hon. Member was entitled to participate.
MR. DILLONsaid he opposed the motion because the resolution had not been debated. He was rather astonished to hear the opinion from the Chair that because a discussion was unprecedented therefore it should not be taken; but they had been doing unprecedented things throughout the night. Why should the Question be put from the Chair at all unless it could be discussed. It was an extraordinary position to assume that members should be denied the right to discuss a motion put from the Chair; but apparently they were not to be given any opportunities for discussion, except such as fitted in with the motions of the First Lord of the Treasury.
MR. LEAMYsaid that it appeared to him if a question were put from the Chair, and if hon. members were denied the right to discuss it, that was treating the House of Commons with contempt.
*THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Gentleman is now discussing the point of order. I have given way on that, and I must invite the hon. Gentleman to confine himself strictly to the Question that I report this resolution to the House.
MR. LEAMYsaid he had no desire to intrude on the time of the Committee, but if recent procedure had not been
adopted it was quite possible that all those questions would have been settled hours ago. He would point out that the House was not in a position at that hour of the morning to discuss such a grave and serious resolution. There had been no discussion in Committee, and it was not fair to ask the House to discuss the question at six o'clock in the morning. Everything seemed to be rushed through at motor-car speed, and what was it all for? The whole object was to enable right hon. Gentlemen to get down to Blenheim on Saturday.
*THE CHAIRMAN: The hon Gentleman is not really confining himself to the motion.
MR. LEAMYsaid it was stated and not contradicted that that was the reason for the expedition of business.
*THE CHAIRMAN: That is not relevant.
MR. LEAMYsaid he accepted the ruling of the Chair. They would be able to deal with the matter again. Considering the amount of business which had been transacted during the sitting, he thought it very unfair to report the resolution without discussion.
MR. A. J. BALFOURrose in Ids place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
Question put, "That the Question be now put"
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 140; Noes, 70. (Division List No. 443.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt, Sir A. F.

Bullard, Sir Harry

Davenport, William Bromley

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Davies, Sir H. D. (Chatham)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

Dickson, Charles Scott

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

Arrol, Sir William

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Doxford, Sir W. Theodore

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r.)

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

Chapman, Edward

Fellowes, Hon. A. Edward

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Charrington, Spencer

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Balfour, Rt. Ha. G. W. (Leeds

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Finch, George H.

Balfour, K. R. (Christchurch)

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Finlay, Sir R. Bannatyne

Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow)

Fisher, William Hayes

Bignold, Arthur

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Fitzroy, Hon. E. Algernon

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Cranborne, Viscount

Flower, Ernest

Brassey, Albert

Crossley, Sir Savile

Foster, Philip, S. (Warwick. S W

Gardner, Ernest

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

Godson, Sir Augustus F.

Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. Ellison

Ridley, S. F. (Bethnal Green)

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Macdona, John Cumming

Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. T.

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Maconochie, A. W.

Robertson, Herbt. (Hackney)

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Marthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Ropner, Col. Robert

Goulding, Edward Alfred

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Groves, James Grimble

Majendie, James A. H.

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alex.

Hambro, Charles Eric

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Hamilton, Rt. Hn Lord G (Mid'x.

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Smith, A. H. (Hertford, East)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Smith, H C (N'rth'mb., Tneside

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

More, Robert J. (Shropshire)

Smith, Hon. W. E. D. (Strand)

Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.

Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow

Spear, John Ward

Heaton, John Henniker

Morrell, George Herbert

Spencer, E. (W. Bromwich)

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Morris, Hon. Martin Hy. F.

Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

Mount, William Arthur

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Hoult, Joseph

Murray, Chas. J. (Coventry)

Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Nichol, Donald Ninian

Valentia, Viscount

Johnston, William (Belfast)

O'Neill, Hon. Robert T.

Walker, Col. William Hall

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Webb, Col. William George

Keswick, William

Pierpoint, Robert

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

Lawson, John Grant

Plummer, Walter R.

Wilson, A. S. (Yorks, E. R.)

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Pretyman, Ernest George

Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh., N.

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

Purvis, Robert

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Randles, John S.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham

Rankin, Sir James

Long, Rt. Hn Walter (Bristol, S.

Reid, James (Greenock)

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Remnant, James Farquharson

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Ambrose, Robert

Healy, Timothy Michael

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Boland, John

Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

O'Dowd, John

Boyle, James

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Burns, John

Joyce, Michael

O'Kelly, James (Roscommon, N

Caldwell, James

Kennedy, Patrick James

O'Malley, William

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Leamy, Edmund

O'Mara, James

Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

Levy, Maurice

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Clancy, John Joseph

Lundon, W.

O'Shee, James John

Cogan, Denis J.

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Dermott, Patrick

Reddy, M.

Crean, Eugene

M'Fadden, Edward

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Cullinan, J.

M'Govern, T.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Daly, James

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Delany, William

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Sullivan, Donal

Dillon, John

Moss, Samuel

Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

Doogan, P. C.

Murnaghan, George

White, Luke (Yorks, E. R.)

Duffy, William J.

Murphy, John

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Flynn, James Christopher

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Gilhooly, James

Nussey, Thomas Willans

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Griffith, Ellis J.

O'Brien, Kendal (Tipp'rary Mid

Hammond, John

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Question put accordingly, "That the Chairman do report the Resolution to the House."
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 139; Noes, 70. (Division List No. 444.)

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

Bullard, Sir Harry

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Balfour, Kenneth R. (Christch.

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Arrol, Sir William

Bignold, Arthur

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Blundell, Col. Henry

Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r

Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r

Brassey, Albert

Chapman, Edward

Charrington, Spencer

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Pierpoint, Robert

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Plummer, Walter R.

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Pretyman, Ernest George

Collings, Rt. Hn. Jesse

Hoult, Joseph

Pryce Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Purvis, Robert

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Randles, John S.

Cranborne, Viscount

Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

Rankin, Sir James

Crossley, Sir Savile

Keswick, William

Reid, James (Greenock)

Davenport, William Bromley-

Lawson, John Grant

Remnant, James Farquharson

Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

Ridley, Hon-M. W (Stalybridge

Dickson, Charles Scott

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Ridley, S. Forde (Bethnal Green

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

Ritchie, Rt. Hon Chas Thomson

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Doxford, Sir Wm. Theodore

Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

Royds, Clement Molyneux

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Fielden, Edward Brocklehurst

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Finch, George H.

Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. Ellison

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Macdona, John Cumming

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Firbank, Joseph Thomas

Maconochie, A. W.

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, Hast

Fisher, William Hayes

M'Arthnr, Charles (Liverpool)

Smith, H C (North'mb Tyneside

Fitzroy, Hn. Edward Algernon

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Flower, Ernest

M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Foster, Philip S (Warwick, S. W.

Majendie, James A. H.

Spear, John Ward

Gardner, Ernest

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W. F.

Spencer, Ernest (W. Bromwich

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

Molesworth, Sir Lewis

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Gordon, J. (Londonderry, S.)

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

Goulding, Edward Alfred

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Valentia, Viscount

Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

Walker, Col, William Hall

Groves, James Grimble

Morrell, George Herbert

Webb, Colonel William Hall

Hambro, Charles Eric

Morriss, Hon. Martin Henry F.

Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

Hamilton, Rt. Hn L'rd G (Midd'x

Morrison, James Archibald

Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

Mount, William Arthur

Wilson, J. W (Worcestersh. N.)

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute

Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Heath, Arthur Howard (Hanley

Nicol, Donald Ninian

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Heath, James (Staffords., N. W.

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Heaton, John Henniker

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

O'Connor, James (Wicklow, W.

Ambrose, Robert

Healy, Timothy Michael

O'Donnell, John (Mayo, S.)

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Horniman, Frederick John

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Boland, John

Jones, William (Carnarvonshire

O'Dowd, John

Boyle, James

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Burns, John

Joyce, Michael

O'Kelly, James Roscommon, N.

Caldwell, James

Kennedy, Patrick James

O'Malley, William

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Leamy, Edmund

O'Mara, James

Carvill, Patrick G. Hamilton

Levy, Maurice

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Clancy, John Joseph

Lundon, W.

O'Shee, James John

Cogan, Denis J.

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Power, Patrick Joseph

Condon, Thomas Joseph

M'Dermott, Patrick

Reddy, M.

Crean, Eugene

M'Fadden, Edward

Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

Cullinan, J.

M'Govern, T.

Redmond, William (Clare)

Daly, James

Mansfield, Horace Rendall

Sheehan, Daniel Daniel

Delany, William

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Sullivan, Donal

Dillon, John

Moss, Samuel

Thomas, D. Alfred (Merthyr)

Doogan, P. C.

Murnaghan, George

White, Luke (York, E. R.)

Duffy, William J.

Murphy, John

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Flavin, Michael Joseph

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Flynn, James Christopher

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Gilhooly, James

Nussey, Thomas Willans

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir Thomas Esmonde and Captain Donelan.

Griffith, Ellis J.

O'Brien, Kendal (Tippera'y Mid

Hammond, John

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Hayden, John Patrick

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Resolution to be reported to-morrow.
In pursuance of the Order of the House of the 22nd day of July last,
Mr. SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put.
Adjourned at Six of the clock, a.m.

EARL OF LEITRIM.
Report made from the Lord Chancellor, that the right of Charles Earl of Leitrim to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
EARL OF LEITRIM.
  INTRODUCED.
  Evelyn Viscount Cromer, G.C.B., G.C.M.G., K.C.S.I., C.I.E., His Majesty's Agent and Consul-General in Egypt, and a Minister Plenipotentiary in the diplomatic service, having been created Viscount Errington of Hexham, in the county of Northumberland, and Earl of Cromer, in the county of Norfolk, was (in the usual manner) introduced.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  DEVONPORT CORPORATION (GAS) BILL.
  Reported with Amendments.

  DOVER CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  SMETHWICK CORPORATION BILL [H.L.].
  LOWESTOFT CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  RIPON CORPORATION BILL [H.L.].
  Commons' Amendments considered and agreed to.

  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (SPITALFIELDS MARKET) BILL.
  Order of the Day for the Third Reading to-morrow discharged. The Chairman of Committees informed the House that the promoters do not intend to proceed further with the Bill; ordered that the Bill be not further proceeded with.
  LONDON COUNTY COUNCIL (GENERAL POWERS) BILL.
  The consent of His Royal Highness the Duke of Cornwall and York, in right of his Duchy of Cornwall, signified, and Bill reported with Amendments.
  SOUTHPORT WATER (TRANSFER) BILL [H.L.]
  The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES reported that the consent of the proprietors of the Southport Waterworks Company in special general meeting assembled to the Bill as amended by the Commons had been proved; Commons' Amendments considered and agreed to.

  CROMER WATER BILL.
  MOND GAS BILL.
  Returned from the Commons with the Amendments agreed to.

  TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (No. 1) BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments; the said Amendments to be considered to-morrow.
  HARPENDEN DISTRICT GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Returned from the Commons agreed to, with Amendments; the said Amendments considered and agreed to.
  SOUTHAMPTON AND WINCHESTER GREAT WESTERN JUNCTION RAILWAY BILL.
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.

  EDINBURGH CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
  STIRLING CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
  KILMARNOCK CORPORATION ORDER CONFIRMATION BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

  PRIVATE BILLS—AMENDMENT OF STANDING ORDERS.
  THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES (The Earl of MORLEY): My Lords, I beg to move the Amendments to the Standing Orders set forth on your Lordships' Paper. I do not think there is anything in the Amendments involving any question of principle. Therefore I need not refer to them in detail; but I shall be glad to answer any questions which noble Lords may wish to put to me on the subject.
  The alterations in the Standing Orders were agreed to; Standing Orders amended accordingly, and to be printed as amended. [No. 188.]

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 2680. Germany (Frankfort-on-Main).
  No. 2681. Italy (Genoa).
  No. 2682. Japan (Hakodate).
  No. 2683. China (Pakhoi).
  No. 2684. Italy (Sardinia).
  No. 2685. Persia (Azerbaijan).
  No. 2686. Egypt (Alexandria).

  COLONIES (ANNUAL).
  No. 328. Turks and Caicos Islands. Report for 1900.
  REFORMATORY AND INDUSTRIAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND).
  Thirty-ninth Report of the Inspector, for the year 1900.
  BOILER EXPLOSIONS.
  Report to the Secretary of the Board of Trade upon the working of the Boiler Explosions Acts, 1882 and 1890, with appendices (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper [Cd. 302]).
  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1894.
  Return of all British ships ordered by the Board of Trade or its officers, during the period from 1st July, 1900, to 30th June, 1901, to be provisionally detained as unsafe by reason of the defective condition of their hulls, equipments, or machinery, or by reason of overloading or improper loading, in pursuance of the provisions of Section 459 of the Act, giving the names of the owners of those ships which have been dismantled, broken up, or converted into hulks, etc., also of all foreign ships ordered to be provisionally detained during the same period as unsafe by reason of overloading or improper loading, in pursuance of the provisions of Section 462 of the same Act; together with summaries showing respectively the total number of ships ordered to be detained as unsafe, from 1st July, 1900, to 30th June, 1901, and since the 1st October, 1876, distinguishing between those cases in which the ships were found safe or unsafe (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper [Cd. 303]).

  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Orders made by the Light Railway Commissioners and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade—

  I. Authorising the construction of a light railway—

  1. In the urban district of Barrow-ford, in the county palatine of Lancaster.

  5

  2. In the county of Lancaster, from Blackpool to Garstang.

  3. In the county of Essex, between Chipping Ongar Station on the Great Eastern Railway and Great Bardfield.

  4. In the borough of Colne and the urban district of Trawden, in the county palatine of Lancaster.

  5. In the borough of Nelson, in the county palatine of Lancaster.

  6. In the West Biding of the county of York and in the counties of Nottingham and Lincoln, from Tickhill to Haxey.

  7. In the West Riding of the county of York, between Wales and Laugton-en-le-Morthen.

  II. Amending—

  1. The Great Western Railway (Pewsey and Salisbury) Light Railway Order, 1898, and the Pewsey and Salisbury (Devizes Branch) Light Railway Order, 1898.

  2. The Lizard Light Railway Order, 1898.

  3. The Bridlington and North Frodingham Light Railway Order, 1898.

  NATIONAL GALLERY (IRELAND).
  Report of the Director to the Board of Governors and Guardians, for the year 1900.
  ARMY (SPECIAL PENSIONS).
  Return for the year ended 31st March, 1901, of pensions specially granted under Articles 730, 1170, and 1207 of the Army Pay Warrant.

  SOUTH AFRICA.
  1. Report from Brigadier-General Dixon on the operations at Vlakfontein on 29th May, 1901.
  2. Army—State of the Volunteer Service Companies raised in 1900.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD.
  1. Thirtieth Annual Report, 1900–1901.
  2. Supplement containing the report of the Medical Officer for 1900–1901.
  3. Bubonic Plague—Reports and
  6
  papers on, by Dr. R. Bruce Low; with an introduction by the Medical Officer of the Local Government Board.

  RAILWAYS.
  General Report to the Board of Trade on the capital, traffic, and expenditure of the railway companies of the United Kingdom, for the year 1900.

  STATISTICS.
  I. Statistical Abstract for the United Kingdom in each of the last fifteen years, from 1886 to 1900. Forty-eighth Number.
  II. Statistical Abstract for the Colonial and other Possessions of the United Kingdom in each of the last fifteen years, from 1886 to 1900. Thirty-eighth Number.
  Presented (by Command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  FORESHORES.
  Treasury Minute, dated 5th August, 1901, directing the application of moneys received by the Board of Trade in the year ended 31st March, 1901, in respect of the rights and interests of the Crown in the foreshores of the United Kingdom.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE ACT (IRELAND) 1877 (RULES).
  Additional rule and schedule made by the Lord Chancellor and the Land Judge.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  HOUSE OF LORDS (SALARY, PAY, PENSION, OR ALLOWANCE).
  Return respecting; laid before the House (pursuant to Order of 8th March last); and to be printed. [No. 187.]

DEATH OF HER IMPERIAL MAJESTY THE EMPRESS FREDERICK OF GERMANY.
THE PRIME MINISTER AND LORD PRIVY SEAL (The Marquess of SALISBURY): My Lords, I rise to move that an Address of sympathy be presented to His Majesty on the death of Her Imperial Majesty the Empress Frederick of Germany. The history which has given rise

7
to this motion is a pathetic one. When the then Princess Royal, afterwards German Empress, left these shores in 1857, there was no person, either of contemporary experience or in history, before whom a brighter prospect extended itself of life and of all those things that could make life desirable. She had a devoted husband, himself one of the noblest characters of his generation, who probably centred upon himself more admiration than any man in his rank or in any rank in Europe. She had every prospect of becoming the Consort of the absolute Emperor of the greatest of the Continental Powers. She had every hope that she would share fully in his illustrious position, and in no small degree in the power that he wielded. This was before her eyes for nearly thirty years, and at the time she had all the enjoyments which were derived from her own great abilities, her own splendid artistic talents, and from the power which she exercised over the artistic, aesthetic, and intellectual life of Germany. She occupied a quite unexampled position. And then suddenly came the blow, first on her husband, and then on herself, of that fell disease which probably is the most formidable of all to which flesh is heir. Her dream of happiness, and usefulness, and glory was almost suddenly cut short. The blow which struck her husband struck herself in even greater degree; and she felt—she could not fail to feel—how deeply she shared in all the disappointment, all the suffering, which attached itself then to his history. And as her life went on, after he had been Emperor only for a few days, and while she was spending her life in retirement, necessarily thinking of the past which had been taken away from her, her health too failed. As she fell under the same blow, she passed through years of suffering to which the sympathy of all who were connected with her or who knew of her was richly paid. And after these many years have passed, the end has come at last. We have every reason to sympathise deeply with His Majesty and with the German Emperor in the terrible loss which they have sustained, and for the sad and pathetic history in which they have played a part, or, at all events, in which they have been sad and powerless observers. She was deeply valued in this country by those who knew
8
her, and they were very many. Her artistic and intellectual charms were, we all know, of no common order, and she spread her influence over all who came within her reach. Her gradual disappearance from the scene was watched with the deepest sorrow and sympathy by numbers in her own country and this. There never was a case where our tender of sympathy could be made with more sincerity than in the present instance. I would that it could be of any practical, advantage. We have only to assure our Sovereign how deeply we feel for the sorrow which he has sustained, and to assure also the son of this distinguished, lady how fully we sympathise with the bereavement which he has undergone. We can only do it with the assurance of our great sincerity and of our regret that to this point this lamentable history should have come.
Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to His Majesty to express the deep concern of this House at the great loss which His Majesty has sustained by the death of His Majesty's sister, Her Majesty the Empress and Queen Frederick of Germany and Prussia, Princess Royal of Great Britain and Ireland, and to condole with His Majesty on this melancholy occasion; and to pray His Majesty that he will be graciously pleased to express to His Imperial Majesty, William, German Emperor, King of Prussia, the profound sympathy of this House with the Imperial and Royal Family; to assure His Majesty that this House will ever feel the warmest interest in whatever concerns His Majesty's domestic relations, and to declare the ardent wishes of this House for the happiness of His Majesty and His Family.—(The Lord Privy Seal, M. Salisbury.)
*EARL SPENCER: My Lords, the noble Marquess has, with the eloquence and the appropriate language which always falls from his lips, moved the Address which you have before you. I can add nothing to what the noble Marquess has said; and yet at the same time it is right that those who sit on the opposite side of the House should make expression on this solemn occasion of their views of the motion. It falls to my lot as the temporary leader of this side

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of the House to do so. I wish the task were in better hands. In moments of this sort we have first to consider those from whose family a beloved member has been removed; and next it is our duty, as far as we can, to record our own estimation of the life and work of the person who has left us. The whole nation joins with us in mourning the death of this illustrious lady, who, though adopted by marriage into a Royal family abroad, was born a Princess of this land. Her Imperial Majesty had no ordinary character. Brought up with the greatest care and solicitude by her Royal and devoted parents, she early showed and had ever since showed the highest accomplishments, not only in art, but in literature. She was herself an artist of no small merit, and her power of criticism and of influence in art was even of a higher order. But in this age which has been so remarkable for the enormous number of persons who have joined in endeavouring to alleviate the sufferings of the human race, whether in peace or war, I will venture to think that no one stands in a higher position than that occupied by the Empress Victoria of Germany. During these wars in which her illustrious husband played such a splendid part she exerted herself to do all that she could to alleviate the sufferings of the wounded; and she has ever in peace used her endeavours to pro mote the same objects among the suffering poor of her country. No one, I am sure, will be remembered in future with more affection and devotion on this account than her late Majesty. She was always sympathetic and energetic with regard to other matters. There was nothing which stirred her sympathies and energies more than the education and improvement of the sex to which she belonged. She did much in that respect in her adopted country. But we cannot consider her life without remembering the beautiful simplicity and earnestness of it. She was devoted to duty. Although she suffered intensely, as the noble Marquess has said, during her life, not only when her noble husband was afflicted with the terrible disease which cut him off, and through whose illness she showed heroic devotion, but through the sad months and even years during which her own malady afflicted her she showed a patient endurance
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which, I am sure, will always remain an example for mankind. I cannot but refer to her great charm in private as well as in public life. It so happened that very early in my life, before her Royal Highness was married, I was honoured by making her acquaintance. I need hardly say that it is only on rare occasions that I have had the privilege of continuing that acquaintance but even within the last few years I have from time to time seen Her Majesty, and I shall always recollect, as one of the most delightful memories of my life, the charm and interest of her conversation. I do not wish to say more about this illustrious lady. This is the third occasion within thirteen months on which we have had to approach His Majesty the King to condole with him on a grievous loss in his family. Brother, mother, sister, to all of whom he was devoted, have been taken from that family circle where we know all the members are devoted to each other. We cannot find often in human life such frequent sorrows in such a short time. We give our earnest and warmest sympathy to His Majesty in the sorrow which has now befallen him. The whole of the nation, I am sure, will join with us in doing so; and I am quite sure that we shall also rejoice that in this address we approach His Imperial Majesty the German Emperor, who has just lost his illustrious mother. Not only do we admire him in the great position which he holds at the head of the German nation, but we always shall remember with deep gratitude the affection and attention that he showed during those sad days which preceded the death of our Queen. We therefore join heartily in the Address which the noble Marquess has moved, and which I have the greatest pleasure in seconding.
On Question, agreed to, nemine dissentiente. Ordered that the said Address be presented to His Majesty by the Lords with the White Staves.

MILITIA AND YEOMANRY BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order); Amendments made; Bill passed, and returned to the Commons.
LOAN BILL.
Read 2a (according to Order): Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a to-morrow.

LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACT, 1881.
VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: My Lords, in rising to move for the Return standing in my name, I will not go into the questions at issue or give the reasons which have induced me to ask for the Return. In consequence of an alteration made in the form of the Return at the request of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor of Ireland, I think it better to postpone my remarks until a future occasion. I can only express the very deep regret I feel that in spite of the fact that the Fry Commission laid great stress on the question of fixing true value, the records have not been kept sufficiently well to allow of all the important questions which I placed on the Paper being replied to; and I hope the noble and learned Lord will give some assurance that in future all such matters will be recorded in the books of the Land Commission as shall give that information to those interested which they have the most elementary right to ask for.
Moved, That there be laid before the House a Return giving (as far as possible) the following particulars of each case in which the "true value" of the tenancy has been ascertained by the court under the provisions of Section 1 (3) of the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881:—(1) Names of Assistant Commissioners (or Land Commissioners) by whom each case was decided; (2) record number (if any); (3) date of order; (4) name of tenant; (5) name of landlord; (6) county; (7) townland; (8) extent of holding (statute measure); (9) rent when order was made; (10) amount of "true value" fixed.—(The Viscount Templetown.)
*THE LORD CHANCELLOR OF IRELAND (Lord ASHBOURNE): My Lords, I am glad that my noble friend modified the form of the Return for which he has moved. When I saw the motion on the Paper I had a conversation with the noble Viscount, and I explained to him that the holidays of the Land Commission, as well as of other bodies, had now commenced, and that therefore the information was very difficult to obtain. As far as I could ascertain—and I was most anxious to give the fullest possible information
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—they were not in a position to give the information, the request for which he has kindly omitted from the form of the Return. As to the recording of such information in future, I have no doubt the Land Commission will read the remarks of my noble friend, and give them fair consideration.
On Question, agreed to.

IRISH LAND COMMISSION—WALKER v. LORD GOSFORD.
VISCOUNT TEMPLETOWN: I beg to ask His Majesty's Government whether the Irish Land Commission can see their way to set down for re-hearing at their next sittings in Armagh or Dublin (whichever shall be first held) the case of John M. Walker (tenant) and the Earl of Gosford (landlord), so that there may be a decision without further delay upon the important questions of general application which were raised in that case by the judgment delivered by Mr. W. F. Bailey, Legal Assistant Commissioner, at Portadown, on 12th February, 1900, as reported in the Daily Express (Dublin) of 17th February, 1900.
*LORD ASHBOURNE: I quite recognise the significance and importance of the questions involved, for my noble friends the Duke of Abercorn, Lord Clonbrock, and others have gone fully into them in previous debates this session. This is a matter which the Land Commission must decide. I have no right to offer any opinion, but if an application were made to the Land Commission, pointing out the great importance of the case, it is possible that they would, if reasonably in their power, consent to take it out of its order.

PROTECTION OF WILD BIRDS IN IRELAND.
THE EARL OF MAYO: I beg to ask the noble and learned Lord, the Lord. Chancellor of Ireland, whether directions will be given to the Royal Irish Constabulary to enforce the existing laws relating to the protection of wild birds in Ireland.
LORD ASHBOURNE: In July, 1899, my noble friend asked the Irish Government

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for information with reference to the protection of wild birds, and he was then told that the constabulary were specially and fully instructed by general circular in May, 1899, to enforce the Wild Birds Protection Acts. I believe that has been loyally carried out. I have endeavoured, since the question was put upon the Paper, to find how the matter stands. Since the issue of the circular six prosecutions have been instituted by the police for breaches of the Acts, and convictions were obtained in all those cases. That, however, is not all that has been done, for during the same period 211 warnings have been given to first offenders throughout the country in the terms of the circular.

GUN LICENCES IN IRELAND.
THE EARL OF MAYO: I also beg to ask whether directions will be given to the Royal Irish Constabulary to enforce the existing laws as prescribed by the Gun Licence Act, 1870, which provides (Section 3), that every person who uses or carries a gun shall pay for it, for a licence, the sum of 10s. The matter is an important one in Ireland, for any officer may ask for the production of a licence. Breaches of the Act of 1870 are a daily occurrence, and take place under the eyes of the constabulary. A satisfactory answer to the question would be most important, because under a 10s. licence a great many people in Ireland imagine that they have a free right to go all over the country and shoot game.
LORD ASHBOURNE: I am not sure that my noble friend's question is addressed with precision to the point he has in view. I have tried to get all the information available, and I have been told that the constabulary are directed to co-operate with the officers of Inland Revenue in the enforcement of the Gun Licence Act of 1870. So far as I am aware there has been no failure of duty on their part in respect to the enforcement of either of the Acts.
THE EARL OF MAYOremarked that the excise officers were so occupied with the spirit duties that they had no time to enforce this Act.

AGRICULTURAL RATES ACT, 1896, ETC., CONTINUANCE BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Monday next. (The Lord Balfour.) (No. 189.)
House adjourned at Five of the clock, till to-morrow, Three of the clock.