Sitting of 25 April 1901

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  GREAT EASTERN' RAILWAY BILL [BY ORDER.]
  As amended, considered.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEmoved the rejection of Clause 27, which proposed to give the Great Eastern Railway Company power to contribute to the funds of a benefit society, ostensibly for the benefit of its workpeople. On the Second Reading of the Bill* a long discussion took place upon the clause, and he need therefore now only summarise the objections entertained to it by working men, and especially by those who were members of trade unions, who objected to being compelled to contribute to a fund over which they had practically no control. This particular fund came under that description. Great benefit societies—such as the Foresters, the Oddfellows, and the Rechabites—had been brought into being by the working men of this country to enable them to tide over times of sickness or accident. In connection with many trade unions there were similar funds, and he had therefore to submit that there was no sufficient reason why the Great Eastern, or any other railway company, should make special provision for its workpeople in that respect. There were, however, particular reasons why the House ought to reject this clause. The provident fund managed by the Great Eastern Railway Company had been in existence since 1851. In 1888 the fund was found to be insolvent. The members agreed to contribute an additional penny per week, and the company undertook to pay a subsidy of £2,500 a year towards the fund. In 1894 the insolvency had increased, and the deficit had risen to £24,000. In 1898 it had increased to £36,000, and an actuarial valuation for the present year put it as high as £50,000. The members of the society had raised their contribution, and the directors of the company had agreed to pay another
  * See Debates, Vol. xc., page 1523.
  1256
  £500 a year, but he understood that they had not paid a single penny. The directors had, in fact, made themselves responsible for a yearly contribution of £3,000, but his information was that they had not so far paid a single penny, and that if they had carried out their undertaking the society at the present moment would have been £30,000 better off. With regard to the existing society, membership was
  compulsory in certain grades of the service, and there was the further objection that if a man were dismissed, or left to improve his position, the service of the company, he lost all the money he had contributed to the society. One effect of the compulsory membership was that a man in receipt of the wage of 15s. or 16s. weekly, having to pay 11d. per week to the fund of the society, could not afford to keep up his membership of any outside organisation.
  Now he came to this particular clause. It would be observed that the Great Eastern Railway asked power to contribute to the funds of the society, composed exclusively of their workpeople. What did that mean? It meant that a man who for years had served the company well and faithfully, and who, perhaps, for ten or twenty years had contributed to the fund of the society, would, if dismissed for some trifling offence, lose the whole of his contributions, and at the same time would be too old to join any other society. That was a most dangerous position in which to place a body of working men. But there was a still more serious objection to the clause. It would be found on examination that the contribution to the funds was only to be given on the condition that the funds were not used to pay workmen who were off work in consequence of any injuries received in the course of their employment. Thus a workman injured at his work, who would under the common law be entitled to sue for and receive compensation, was made to choose between the compensation to which he was entitled under the Act and the benefit he had contributed for in the case of the society. It was only reasonable to assume that in nine cases out of ten the workman, under the circumstances, would elect to take the benefit under the fund, and so he would relieve the

  1257
  Great Eastern Railway Company of the responsibility which Parliament had put upon it to give compensation to its injured workmen. Surely it was most unjust to force them into such a position. He came next to what was, perhaps, the most serious blot upon the clause. There were certain words which provided that the company should make its contributions on such terms and conditions, and subject to such restrictions and reservations, as it might think expedient. On the face of it that appeared reasonable in an ordinary case, but what did it mean in this case? It meant that the Great Eastern Company would have the power to say before it contributed to the funds of the society that the men should be precluded from taking part in any public work. One employee of the company had been dismissed for allowing himself to be elected a member of the Poplar Borough Council, and other employees had been dismissed for signing a memorial in connection with the School Board. The employees could not afford to have a company doing things of this kind. The employees were bound down strictly enough in all conscience to the rules of the company. He held in his hand the book of rules issued by the company to their employees—a book containing 200 rules which were most strict—and he desired to know whether the promoters of the Bill, who had agreed to insert a clause in it that membership of the provident societies which had been established or authorised by the company should not be compulsory—were prepared to delete Rule 8 in the book of rules. By that rule employees of the company were required to join any society that might be established in accordance with the regulations of the company. If the promoters were not prepared to delete that rule, then there would be a conflict of authority between the Bill it was proposed to pass on the one hand, and the rules of the company on the other. He hoped, in the interests of the freedom of the employees, of thrift among work-people, and of encouraging working men to take an active interest in their own affairs and thereby becoming better citizens and better workmen, the House would reject Clause 27. He begged to move.
  MR. BELLsaid he thought he had made perfectly clear on the last occasion his position with regard to the Bill, and he now rose to second the Amendment of the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil, as he thought the proposal of the hon. Member was by far the simplest method of dealing with the Amendments contained in the Paper. The company appeared to seek power from this House to enable them to subscribe as it were to a new society yet to be formed. The objection raised by the railway men to any such proposal was that the company sought to become hon. members of such a society subject to such conditions and reservations as they deemed might be expedient. There was no objection to the Great Eastern Railway Company becoming hon. members of any society they pleased—most hon. Members of this House were hon. members of some society or other in their own constituency, but they sought no special conditions—and the opposition was only directed to preventing the company making any special conditions for themselves. He had received appeals from all parts of the Great Eastern system to use his influence to get this clause deleted. The company had in one of the clauses of the Bill which they agreed to accept before the Committee said that no scheme with regard to a benevolent fund should come into operation until it had received the sanction and come under the operation of the Friendly Societies Acts. They now proposed to vary and amend that in such a manner as to enable them to evade that obligation.
  As an experienced railway man, who had joined these societies and left money in them when he left the companies, he could speak with authority upon this matter, and he asked the House, by the urgent request of the Great Eastern Railway men, to delete Clause 27, and thus prevent the men of the company being interfered with simply because they were not members of the society. The Chairman of Committees had stated that a clause or paragraph to deal with this might be inserted before the Bill went into Committee, but it appeared that it was to be inserted in such a way as to be of no value to the men who were opposing the measure, as although it was

  1259
  not obligatory for the employees to become members of the society, it was practically compulsory for candidates for employment to join it. The experience of the employees of the Great Eastern Railway fund was such that they did not want any more societies of the kind forced upon them. In order to save the time of the House, he thought it a very reasonable request to make that until such time as the directors and employees had agreed amongst themselves as to the nature of the society, and as to a form of rule that would be suitable to both parties, this clause should be deleted. If that were done, and the company came to the House next year for powers, he would support the compromise as strongly as he had opposed this clause.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In pace 25, to leave out Clause 27."—(Mr. Keir Hardie.)
  Question proposed, "That the words of the clause to the word 'not,' in line 13, stand part of the Bill."
  MR. PENNsaid that when the Bill was before the House last month this question had been thrashed out at very considerable length. A feeling was then strongly expressed that there should be no compulsion on the servants of the company to join the fund constituted by this clause. The company agreed that the words which were in the Lancashire and Yorkshire Act of 1897 should be inserted in the Bill, in order to make the understanding perfectly clear. These words were. "It shall not be compulsory upon any servant of the company to become a member of the society." The company thought that that would amply safeguard the employees of the Great Eastern Railway, and he was perfectly convinced that it did so. He therefore could not understand how opposition could he offered to this clause after the meeting they had had, and after this agreement had been come to.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid he had not been consulted, and had been a party to no agreement; nor had he been aware that any agreement had been come to.
  MR. PENNsaid he was put in a somewhat difficult position, because he really did not know exactly how many of the employees of the Great Eastern Railway were represented by the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil, nor did he know for how many employees the hon. Member for Derby spoke.
  MR. BELL: For several thousands.
  MR. PENNsaid that there were tens of thousands in the employment of the company, a very large number of whom were perfectly satisfied with their conditions of service, and it was scarcely possible for one man to represent all the interests of
  the employees. The hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil had said that if a member of the provident fund left the employment of the company all the money which he had paid into the fund would be for ever lost to him. But Rule 35 of the Great Eastern provident fund made it absolutely clear that any member leaving the society, except for some criminal offence, should be entitled to take away with him all contributions he had made.
  MR. BELLsaid he understood the hon. Member to say on the last occasion that no rules had been drafted for the new society.
  MR. PENNsaid he was only endeavouring to put right that which had been advanced by the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil, and which, if uncontradicted, would be a great stigma and slur on the Great Eastern Railway. The men were entitled to take away their contributions if they left the service of the company.
  MR. KEIR HARDIE: Subject to what deductions?
  MR. PENNsaid there was a very small deduction for the risk incurred while the men were members of the society, and that was a perfectly fair rule. Another point the hon. Member had made was that the company had promised to make a certain payment to the society, but had not done so in fact. Well, the money was credited to the fund

  1261
  under a sealed agreement with the members of the fund, and if any occasion arose it would be a first charge on the company's resources. He should object to the omission of the clause.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTwished to ask the hon. Gentleman whether the company would withdraw Rule 8, under which a servant was required to join any society the company might establish.
  MR. PENNsaid that that rule did not affect the proposed society at all.
  MR. CORRIE GRANTpointed out that, while the regulations were handed to all the men in the employment of the company, and to the men who wanted to join the company, the Acts of Parliament which regulated the proceedings of the company were not so easy to obtain; and railway porters at 12s. or 15s. a week had no means of knowing what was in those Acts. Would the company undertake to alter Rule 8, which made it compulsory on servants to join any fund?
  SIR JOSEPH PEASEsaid he had come down to the House in order to support the Chairman of Ways and Means in the kind assistance he was pleased to give to the promoters of the Bill and those opposed to the original clause. He thought the words proposed to be introduced through the kind aid of the Chairman of Ways and Means were satisfactory. But the hon. Member for Merthyr had pointed out a very different case—the obligatory rule, No. 8, which seemed to have been long in existence, and which took him, as a railway man, a good deal by surprise. That rule said that if a benefit society was established by the company, the servants were required to join it in accordance with the regulations. Now, in his opinion, these societies must not be compulsory. If they were to work at all they must work with the full approval, and with the help of the men themselves. He used "help" advisedly, for the men and representatives of the company should work together for the benefit of both parties. They should not have a clash
  1262
  of interests. Therefore, it was not un reasonable to ask whether, if this Bill were passed, this rule would be taken out of the regulations. It seemed to him to be a very arbitrary rule, and one which the Great Eastern Company would, in these modern days, never think of acting upon. If the Bill were passed as amended, and if this rule were altered, then everything would have been gained which the men could fairly ask.
  MAJOR RASCHsaid he would take advantage, in the agricultural interest, of the opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the differential rates demanded by the Great Eastern Railway Company.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That would not be relevant.
  MR. PENNANTsaid that if the Amendment suggested by the Chairman of Ways and Means were carried, and Rule 8 were left intact, the company would have a stultifying code He wanted to know if the clause covered new as well as existing servants of the company.
  MR. BARTLEYthought they were in some confusion on this matter. The last debate on the question was whether the rule should be made compulsory or not. He was not a shareholder in the company, and had no interest in the matter except as a scheme for promoting thrift. This clause was to enable the railway
  company to contribute, which it was very willing to do, to practically a new fund, established to confer various benefits on the employees. It appeared that the old fund had some rules which seemed to have been of a somewhat drastic character, but this Act, with the clause inserted by agreement, would override the old rules. [Cries of "No."] He thought there could be no question about it. If an Act of Parliament said categorically that the railway company was not to compel its servants to join a certain society, then that abrogated the old rules.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONsaid he was in some difficulty about this matter. When the Bill was introduced and the subject

  1263
  first debated, the Great Eastern Railway Company ought to have been the first to acknowledge that this provident fund should not be compulsory on their servants. That, however, they did not do, having thoroughly misapprehended the feeling of the House; and they only consented to make the scheme non-compulsory because they realised they would lose their Bill altogether unless they did so. But he had grave suspicion in regard to what the Great Eastern Company had in their mind on this matter. Into the hands of every servant of the company was placed a copy of the rules and regulations of the company. No. 8 of these rules said that any fund of this sort either in the past or the future should necessarily be compulsory on the servants of the company. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Lewisham had been asked twice over by different hon. Members whether the company intended to adhere to the rule or not, but he had given no reply. They wanted to know, moreover, whether the clause in the present Bill would override the rule. Unless the hon. Gentleman gave a distinct assurance that the company were going to act in spirit and in letter up to the opinion and desire of the House, and to the terms of this clause, and also that Rule 8 should be withdrawn, he certainly should vote against the clause under discussion.
  MR. FIELDappealed to the hon. Member for Lewisham to promise to withdraw Rule 8, against which the men were unanimous. A good and constant railway service could never be carried on unless the men were entirely contented with the rules by which they were governed.
  COLONEL LOCKWOODsaid the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil was under a misapprehension when he said that when a man left the service of the Great Eastern Railway he forfeited the benefits of the society. Rule 35 distinctly stated that any member of the society quitting the company's service could still remain a member of the society provided he continued to pay into it. The hon. Member for Poplar was not quite fair
  1264
  in his remarks about the Great Eastern Railway Company. There was nothing to justify him in saying that the company wished to evade their responsibilities. He was light in stating that they intended fully and honourably to carry out in spirit and in letter the obligations they had undertaken to this House. He understood that the hon. Member for Lewisham had assented to that. [Cries of "No."] Then he gave that assurance now.
  MR. PENNsaid it might save the time of the House if he stated that the company were prepared to make an alteration in the particular regulation under discussion so as to remove obligation from any servant to join the society.
  CAPTAIN NORTONsaid that before going to the vote this should be made perfectly clear. It was said that this was introduced in the interest of the employees. As a matter of fact, they knew that the employees were distinctly against it. Now, the hon. Member said he would alter the new conditions under which the men joined the society, but the men objected to be bound by any conditions for joining the society. This particular clause struck at all friendly societies throughout the country. It damaged those societies in the interest of the railway companies, in order to place the men definitely in the power of their employers. This section did not apply to the new rules. The funds which were supplied by the men were invested in the company. In other words, the profits from the savings of the men, instead of going into the pockets of the men, went into the pockets of the shareholders. Then, again, it was stated that a man who cleared out of the company might continue to be a member of the society, so that he suffered no damage; but that provision did not meet the objections of the men. He hoped that all those who had the interests of the men at heart would vote for the deletion of the section.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 213; Noes, 138. (Division List No. 141.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Garfit, William

  Murray, Rt. Hn A Graham (Bute

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond

  Myers, William Henry

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Gordon, Hn. J E (Elgin, & Nairn)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'lets

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Gore, Hon. F. S. Ormsby-

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Palmer, Sir Charles M (Durham

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Grant, Corrie

  Parker, Gilbert

  Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Partington, Oswald

  Ashtin, Thomas Gair

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitzroy

  Gretton, John

  Penn, John

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Percy, Earl

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Groves, James Grimble

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Gunter, Colonel

  Purvis, Robert

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  Rankin, Sir James

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Hain, Edward

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Beach, Rt Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

  Halsey, Thomas Frederick

  Ratcliffe, R. F.

  Beach, Rt Hon W. W. B. (Hants.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

  Reid, James Greenock)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bill, Charles

  Harris, F. L. (Tynemouth)

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Blundell, Col. Henry

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Renwick, George

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Helder, Augustus

  Robertson, Herbert Hackney

  Brassey, Albert

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Brookfield, Col. Montagu

  Henderson, Alexander

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Rothschild, Hn. Lionel Walter

  Bull, William James

  Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead

  Round, James

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Campbell, Rt Hn. J. A (Glasgow

  Horner, Frederick William

  Russell, T. W.

  Carlile, William Walter

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Rutherford, John

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Cavendish, R. E. (N. Lancs.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Sharpe, Wm. Edward T.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Kimber, Henry

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Kitson, Sir James

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

  Chapman, Edward

  Knowles, Lees

  Smith, H. C. (North, Tyneside)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Lawson, John Grant

  Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Spear, John Ward

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Lee, A. H. (Hants, Fareham)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Stroyan, John

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham

  Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.)

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lowther, Rt Hn J W (Cum., Pen.

  Walrond, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm. H.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Denny, Colonel

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E.

  Welby, Lt-Col. A. C. E. (Tauntn

  Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'mlets, S Geo.

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Doughty, George

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Douglas, Rt. Hn. A. Akers-

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir Wm Hart

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Elliot, Hn. A. Ralph Douglas

  Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Middlemore, John Throgmor'n

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.

  Fellowes, Hn. Ailwyn Edward

  Mitchell, William

  Younger, William

  Fergusson, Rt Hn Sir J (Manch'r

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Finlay, Sir Robt. Bannatyne

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Fisher, William Hayes

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Mr. Boulnois and Mr. Banbury.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose-

  Mount, William Arthur

  Flower, Ernest

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  1266

  1267

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

  Harwood, George

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  O'Dowd, John

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Austin, Sir John

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  O'Malley, William

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Hayter, Rt. Hn. Sir Arthur D.

  O'Mara, James

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Bell, Richard

  Holland, William Henry

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Black, Alexander William

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Blake, Edward

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Priestley, Arthur

  Boland, John

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Brigg, John

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Reddy, M.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Burt, Thomas

  Joyce, Michael

  Reed, Sir Edw. James (Cardiff)

  Caine, William Sproston

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Caldwell, James

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Rigg, Richard

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Labouchere, Henry

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lambert, George

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Langley, Batty

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Colville, John

  Leamy, Edmund

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Crean, Eugene

  Leng, Sir John

  Sullivan, Donal

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.

  Crombie, John William

  Loyd-George, David

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merty'r

  Cullinan, J.

  Lundon, W.

  Thompson, E. C. (Monaghan, N.

  Daly, James

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Tomkinson, James

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Tully, Jasper

  Delany, William

  M'Cann, James

  Wallace, Robert

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  M'Crae, George

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Dillon, John

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Doogan, P. C.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Duffy, William J.

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dunn, Sir William

  Mooney, John J.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Edwards, Frank

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Murnaghan, George

  Whitley, J. H. Halifax)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Murphy, J.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Field, William

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Newnes, Sir George

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudder'd

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Norman, Henry

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Mr. Keir Hardie and Captain Norton.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipperary Md

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Hammond, John

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  MR. GRAYpointed out that Clause 27 gave power to the directors of the company to subsidise the men's provident fund, provided always that certain benefits were excluded. He thought it very desirable that the directors should be able to make their contribution to the fund, even though the fund had a wider basis than was at first anticipated. The promoters of the Bill had no objection to the Amendment he had placed on the Paper, and he moved accordingly.
  MR. PENNformally seconded.
  Amendment proposed.
  "In Clause 27, page 25, line 13, after 'sickness,' leave out 'not arising from injuries
  1268
  in respect of which such members are entitled to compensation from the company by statute or common law, or under the Great Eastern Railway Accident Fund Scheme.'"—(Mr. Gray.)
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. BELLsaid that as the House had decided against deleting the clause in order that the company and the workpeople might come to terms, he desired to move, for the reasons he had already explained, the omission of the words from "section," in line 24, to "to," in line 25, so that if the company, under the powers conferred by the Bill, were honest in their intention, and had no other purpose than to be honorary members of the

  1269
  society, they would be allowed to subscribe without making terms, conditions, or reservations as they thought proper, or in any way having a veto on the acts of the men in the management of the society.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Clause 27, page 25, line 24, to leave out from the word 'section' to the word 'to' in line 25."—(Mr. Bell.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  MR. PENN, in opposing the Amendment, said that, as the promoters of the Bill were asking for sanction to make a payment towards the fund to be set up under Clause 27, it was only right that the directors should have a certain voice in the management of the fund. No serious objection could possibly be taken to the words of the clause, and therefore he could not agree that they should be deleted.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 204; Noes, 179. (Division List No. 142.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Kitson, Sir James

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Denny, Colonel

  Knowles, Lees

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'mlets, S. Geo.

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Lawson, John Grant

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Doughty, George

  Leighton, Stanley

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart

  Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline Fitz Roy

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph D.

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Lowther, Rt. Hn J W (Cum., Pen

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W. (Leeds

  Fison, Frederick William

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Bartley, George C. T.

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Macartney, Rt. Hn. W. G. E.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.

  Garfit, William

  Macdona, John Gumming

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

  Gibbs, Hon. A G H (City of Lond.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. W. W. B. (Hants

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Bill, Charles

  Gore, Hon. E. S. Ormsby-

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Bond, Edward

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.)

  M'Iver, Sir Lewis (Edinburgh W

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Brassey, Albert

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Brookfield, Col. Montagu

  Groves, James Grimble

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Bull, William James

  Gunter, Colonel

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Hain, Edward

  Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A. (Gl'sg'w

  Halsey, Thomas Frederick

  Middlemore, John Throgm'rton

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

  Mitchell, William

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Hamilton, Marq. of (Lond'nd'ry

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Cavendish, R. E. (N. Lancs.)

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Helder, Augustus

  Mount, William Arthur

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

  Henderson, Alexander

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham Bute

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampst'd)

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Chapman, Edward

  Hobhouse, H. (Somerset, E.)

  Myers, William Henry

  Charrington, Spencer

  Horner, Frederick William

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Coddington, Sir William

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry Cecil

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Parker, Gilbert

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hutton, John (York, N. R.)

  Penn, John

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Percy, Earl

  Cox, Irwin Edward Bainbridge

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. Salop.

  Purvis, Robert

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Kimber, Henry

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Rankin, Sir James

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

  Wason, John C. (Orkney)

  Ratcliffe, R. F.

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C E (Taunt'n

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John Lloyd

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Smith, H C (North'um. Tynes'de

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Renwick, George

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks)

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Spear, John Ward

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Round, James

  Stroyan, John

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G (Oxf'd Univ.

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  Rutherford, John

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Younger, William

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Valentia, Viscount

  Mr. Boulnois and Mr. Banbury.

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Walrond, Rt. Hon. Sir William H

  NOES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N. E.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Moss, Samuel

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud)

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Murnaghan, George

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Murphy, J.

  Austin, Sir John

  Gladstone, Rt. Hon. H. John

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'ml'ts

  Newnes, Sir George

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Grant, Corrie

  Nolan, Col. J. P (Galway, N.)

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Gretton, John

  Norman, Henry

  Black, Alexander William

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Blake, Edward

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Boland, John

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Hammond, John

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

  Brigg, John

  Hardie, J. K. (Merthyr Tydvil

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Harwood, George

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Burt, Thomas

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  O'Dowd, John

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Caine, William Sproston

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  O'Malley, William

  Caldwell, James

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  O'Mara, James

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Carvill, Patrick Geo. Hamilton

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Palmer, Sir Chas. M. (Durham

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Holland, William Henry

  Palmer, George W. (Reading)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffi'ld, Brightside

  Partington, Oswald

  Colville, John

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Crean, Eugene

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham

  Cremer, William Randal

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Crombie, John William

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Cullinan, J.

  Joicey, Sir James

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Daly, James

  Jones, William (Carnarvons.)

  Price, Robert John

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Priestley, Arthur

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Joyce, Michael

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Delany, William

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Reddy, M.

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Dillon John

  Lambert, George

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Doogan, P. C.

  Langley, Batty

  Rigg, Richard

  Duffy, William J.

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Leamy, Edmund

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Dunn, Sir William

  Leng, Sir John

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Edwards, Frank

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Emmott, Alfred

  Lloyd-George, David

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lough, Thomas

  Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)

  Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

  Lundon, W.

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Evans, S. T. (Glamorgan)

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Strachey, Edward

  Farrell, James Patrick

  M'Crae, George

  Sullivan, Donal

  Fenwick, Charles

  M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Field, William

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Tennant, Harold John

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merth'r

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Mooney, John J.

  Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

  Flower, Ernest

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Thompson, E. C. (Monaghan, N.

  1272

  1273

  Tomkinson, James

  Weir, James Galloway

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Tully, Jasper

  Whiteley, G. (York, W. R.)

  Ure, Alexander

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Wallace, Robert

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Mr. Bell and Mr. Goddard.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk, Mid)

  Another Amendment made.
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: I rise to move an Amendment which is not on the Paper, but I need not take up more than a few moments in explaining the point. The hon. Member in charge of the Bill stated in a most fair and honourable manner that the Great Eastern Railway Company would be willing to alter their rules in this respect. No doubt it was felt that an undertaking of that kind was given in a perfectly honourable spirit, but the matter was rather vague, and it is desirable to put it on record. It seems to me that up to a certain point we might obtain a Parliamentary record by inserting on page 26, Clause 27, in Sub-section 0, the words "notwithstanding anything contained in any rule of a railway company." Although it is perfectly true that you cannot expect working men to know the contents of the complicated sections of an Act of Parliament, so far as an Act can bring it to their notice the insertion of these words would carry out that intention as far as possible. I have no hesitation in moving this Amendment, and I sincerely hope that the hon. Member opposite in charge of the Bill, who I think is very anxious to meet us in a conciliatory spirit, will agree to accept these words.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 26, Clause 27, Sub-section D, to insert the words 'notwithstanding anything contained in any rule of a railway company.'"—(Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): I think my hon. friend the Member for Lewisham might accept this Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. BELLsaid that the clause as it stood at present only applied to servants already in the employment of the company. It would be seen that, by rule 8, servants pledged themselves to become members of the society appointed by the company, and the alteration which he asked the Committee to adopt was intended to prevent the men being compelled to join the society. With the view, therefore, of protecting those who might in the future obtain employment under the company he begged to move his Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In page 26, Clause 27, line 5, to leave out Sub-section D, and insert the words, 'Membership in the society shall not be made a condition of employment by the company, nor shall any discrimination be made against employees who do not join,' instead thereof."—(Mr. Bell.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  MR. PENNsaid he did not feel justified in accepting this Amendment. The form of words in the Clause had worked smoothly and given great satisfaction since 1897 in two railway Acts now running, and he failed to see any improvement in the words suggested by the hon. Member for Derby. The second part of the Amendment provided—
  "Nor shall any discrimination be made against employees who do not join."
  He was a little at sea as to what that meant, and he was afraid it would only lead to trouble and cause confusion and litigation between employer and employed.
  MR. GRAYsaid there was one point in the Bill on which he should like to be quite clear, and that was with regard to the application of the clause as it now stood. He was disposed to think that the clause as it now stood would apply to those already in the service

  1275
  only; but it would not prevent the company saying to new applicants: Will you join the fund? taking one man who consented, and rejecting another who refused. He had no doubt that the Bill before them was intended to cover such a case as that, but it was doubtful indeed whether it was covered. It was not open for him to move an Amendment, as there was now one before the House. He recommended that the hon. Member for Derby might secure the incorporation of the first half of his Amendment without any injury. He was told that the directors had no idea whatever of applying such a test to applicants for employment, and, if that was so, why should they object to the introduction of words to make that clear to everyone who sought employment?
  THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS (Mr. J. W. LOWTHER,)said he was rather astonished at the action the hon. Member for Derby had taken. The words the hon. Member now sought to be struck out were put in after he had seen and considered them, and with his full approval. Under these circumstances it seemed somewhat peculiar that he should now seek to strike out these words.
  MR. BELLsaid he should like to put himself right on that matter. He thought he distinctly suggested to the right hon. Gentleman, to the hon. Member for Lewisham, and to the general manager of the company, two or three days after the last debate on the question, that something should be brought within the company's rides and regulations that this should not apply to new candidates for employment in the service of the company. Nothing was definitely promised, and he was not satisfied with the words after he saw them in print. He now found that the words would only apply to those already in the company's service; still, there were rules of the company which would give a preference to those who would agree to join the society on applying for occupation. It was to meet that case that he moved the Amendment.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid that, after what they had just heard from the right
  1276
  hon. Gentleman the Chairman of Committees, he was glad that his hon. friend the Member for Derby had freed himself from the imputation of bad faith. The hon. Member agreed to accept a certain compromise provided the clause was retained in the Bill. He did not see the form of words proposed to be embodied.
  MR. J. W. LOWTHER: I beg pardon. The form of words was shown to the hon. Member in print.
  MR. BELL: Subject to the alteration of the rules of the company.
  MR. J. W. LOWTHER: There was no condition attached whatever.
  MR. KEIR HARDIEsaid he wished to point out that this Amendment consisted of two parts, and the second part was an important one, namely, that no discrimination should be made against employees who did not join the society. He was exceedingly astonished to hear the Member for North-West Ham speak in opposition to this clause. As a trade unionist the hon. Member ought to be aware that one of the greatest difficulties in the way of organisation was the fear of punishment being meted out to employees who did or did not perform some act they were asked to do. It would be easy for the directors to refuse promotion to an employee who did not join the society. As was well known, most employees were entitled to an advance of wages periodically. It would be an easy matter to hold back an advance of wages to an employee who did not join the society. There would be nothing in the rules or the clause to prevent that being done unless the Amendment were accepted. He hoped that the hon. Member for Lewisham, who had gone so far, would not stop at going one step further, so as to make it clear to the employees that no compulsion or pressure, direct or indirect, would be brought to bear upon them to join the society, and that they would not be punished in any way if they refused to join.
  MR. TAYLORappealed to the hon. Member for Lewisham to allow this Amendment to pass. The company either meant to discrimi-

  1277
  nate between the men or they did not. If the latter part of the Amendment was not adopted suspicion would be created against the directorate of which he thought they were not worthy. Why not adopt the Amendment? It would
  give them credit for what they meant to do.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 225: Noes, 177. (Division List No. 143.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverp'l)

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.)

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Fison, Frederick William

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose-

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

  Garfit, William

  Malcolm, Ian

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Gibbs, Hn. A.G. H. (Cityo'Lond.

  Manners, Lord Cecil

  Bain, Col. James Robert

  Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans

  Maple, Sir John Blundell

  Baird, John George Alexander

  Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn.

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Gore, Hon. F. S. Ormsby-

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Balfour, Capt. C. B. (Hornsey

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. Gerald W (Leeds

  Grant, Corrie

  Middlemore, John T.

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Greene, W. Raymond (Cambs.)

  Milton, Viscount

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Grenfell, William Henry

  Mitchell, William

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

  Gretton, John

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Beach, Rt. Hon. W. W. B. (Hants.

  Groves, James Grimble

  Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants.

  Bill, Charles

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Blundell, Col. Henry

  Gunter, Colonel

  More, Robt. Jas. (Shropshire)

  Bond, Edward

  Hain, Edward

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Halsey, Thomas Frederick

  Mowbray, Sir Robt. Gray C.

  Brand, Hon. Arthur G.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn L'd G. (Midd'x

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Brassey, Albert

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Myers, William Henry

  Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Bull, William James

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Helder, Augustus

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Campbell, Rt. Hn. J. A (Glasgow

  Henderson, Alexander

  Parker, Gilbert

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hickman, Sir Alfred

  Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Hoare, Ed. Brodie (Hampstead)

  Penn, John

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Hobhouse, Hy. (Somerset, E.)

  Percy, Earl

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Horner, Frederick William

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Houldsworth, Sir William H.

  Pilkington, Richard

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry C.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r.)

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Purvis, Robert

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Chapman, Edward

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Rankin, Sir James

  Charrington, Spencer

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh)

  Ratcliffe, R. F.

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Kimber, Henry

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Kitson, Sir James

  Ridley, Hon M. W. (Stalybridge

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Knowles, Lees

  Ritchie, Rt Hon Chas. Thomson

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Lawson, John Grant

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Round, James

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Denny, Colonel

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Rutherford, John

  Dewar, T. R. (T'rH'ml'ts, S. Geo.

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Dimdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.)

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Doughty, George

  Lowther, Rt Hn J W (Cum. Penr

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Shaw-Stewart, M H. (Renfrew

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Lucas, Col. F (Lowestoft)

  Simeon, Sir Harrington

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir Wm. Hart

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th)

  Sinclair, Lousis (Romford)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Macartney, Rt. Hn W. G. E.

  Smith, H. C (North'mb. Tynes'e

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Valentia, Viscount

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C E H (Sheffield

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks.)

  Spear, John Ward

  Walrond Rt. Hn. Sir William H

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C E (Taunton

  Wylie, Alexander

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  Stroyan, John

  Wharton, Rt Hon. John Lloyd

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Younger, William

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J G (Ox'f'd Univ.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Tomlinson, William Edw. M.

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.

  Mr. Boulnois and Mr. Banbury.

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Guthrie, Walter Murray

  O'Dowd, John

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hammond, John

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Austin, Sir John

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydv'l

  O'Malley, William

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  O'Mara, James

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Harwood, George

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Beaumont, Wentworth, C. B.

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Palmer, Sir Charles M. (Durham

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Palmer, George Wm. (Reading)

  Black, Alexander William

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  Partington, Oswald

  Blake, Edward

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Boland, John

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Brigg, John

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. Chas. H.

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Price, Robert John

  Brunner, Sir John T.

  Hope, J. D. (Fife, West)

  Priestley, Arthur

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Burt, Thomas

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Reddy, M.

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Caine, William Sproston

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Caldwell, James

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Joyce, Michael

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Rigg, Richard

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Labouchere, Henry

  Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

  Colville, John

  Lambert, George

  Russell, T. W.

  Crean, Eugene

  Langley, Batty

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Cremer, William Randal

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Crombie, John William

  Leamy, Edmund

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Cullinan, J.

  Leng, Sir John

  Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Daly, James

  Lloyd-George, David

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Lough, Thomas

  Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R (Northants

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Lundon, W.

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Delaney, William

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Strachey, Edward

  Dewar, J. A. (Inverness-shire)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Sullivan, Donal

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  M'Crae, George

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Dillon, John

  M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

  Tennant, Harold John

  Doogan, P. C.

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

  Duffy, William J.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Thomas, F. Freeman (Hastings

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Mellor, Rt. Hon. John William

  Thompson, E. C. (Monaghan, N.

  Dunn, Sir William

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Tomkinson, James

  Edwards, Frank

  Mooney, John J.

  Treveln, Philya Charlesips

  Emmott, Alfred

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Tully, Jasper

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Ure, Alexander

  Evans, Sir Francis H. (Maidst.

  Morton, Edw. J. C (Devonport)

  Wallace, Robert

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Moss, Samuel

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Murnaghan, George

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T

  Fenwick, Charles

  Murphy, J.

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Field, William

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Newnes, Sir George

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Whiteley, George (York, W. R.

  Flower, Ernest

  Norman, Henry

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk, Mid

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herb. John

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry Mid

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Bell and Mr. John Wilson (Durham).

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Bill to be read the third time.

  PRIVATE BILLS (PETITION FOR ADDITIONAL PROVISION) (STANDING ORDERS NOT COMPLIED WITH).
  MR. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, viz.:—
  Dorking Gas Bill.
  Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

  LONG EATON GAS BILL.
  Reported with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE.
  Fourth Report brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table and to be printed.
  WELLS CORPORATION WATER BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table and to be printed.
  WELLS WATER BILL.
  Reported [Parties do not proceed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
CARDIFF CORPORATION BILL
  TENDRING HUNDRED WATER BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
THAMES DEEP WATER DOCK BILL.
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table.
GLASGOW AND RENFREW DISTRICT RAILWAY TRANSFER BILL.
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
GATESHEAD AND DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL.
Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

HENRY DIAPER AND COMPANY (DELIVERY WARRANTS) BILL [Lords].
Reported, without Amendment; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time.

DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LANDS (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL
Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Order confirmed]; Report to lie upon the Table.
Bill to be read the third time to-morrow.

PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP A).
Mr. HARGREAVES BROWN reported from the Committee on Group A of Private Bills, That the parties promoting the London County Council
(Spitalfields Market) Bill had stated that the evidence of Mr. John Collins was essential to their case; and it having been proved that his attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, he had been instructed to move that the said Mr. John Collins do attend the said Committee this day.
Ordered, That Mr. John Collins do attend the Committee on Group A of Private Bills this day.

LEATHERHEAD GAS BILL.
  PETERSFIELD AND SELSEY GAS BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed.
BARRY RAILWAY BILL
"To extend the time for the completion of certain railways of the Barry Railway Company," read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to dissolve the Omagh Gas Company; and to incorporate and confer powers on a new Company." Omagh Gas Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to alter and amend certain provisions of the Deed of Constitution of the Bristol, Clifton, and West of England Zoological Society; and for other purposes." Bristol, Clifton, and West of England Zoological Society Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to make further provisions with reference to and to confer further powers on the undertakers of the Aire and Calder Navigation; to amend the Acts relating to their undertaking; and for other purposes." Aire and Calder Navigation Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act to constitute and incorporate a joint water board for the urban districts of Aspatria and Holme Cultram, in the county of Cumberland, and to authorise such joint water board to construct works and to supply water to those and adjacent districts; and for other purposes." Aspatria, Silloth, and District Water Bill [Lords].
Also a Bill, intituled, "An Act for incorporating and conferring powers upon the Alfreton Gas Company; and for other purposes." Alfreton Gas Bill
[Lords].
And also a Bill, intituled, "An Act for incorporating and conferring powers upon the Shields Bridge Company; and for other purposes." Shields Bridge Bill [Lords].

OMAGH GAS BILL [Lords].
  BRISTOL, CLIFTON, AND WEST OF ENGLAND ZOOLOGICAL SOCIETY BILL [Lords].

    AIRE AND CALDER NAVIGATION BILL [Lords].
    ASPATRIA, SILLOTH, AND DISTRICT WATER BILL [Lords].
    ALFRETON GAS BILL [Lords.]
    SHIELDS BRIDGE BILLS [Lords].
    Read the first time, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

NEWRY PORT AND HARBOUR TRUST BILL.
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP H).
MR. Arthur Elliot reported from the Committee on Group H of Private Bills; That, to meet the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Monday next, at half-past Eleven of the clock; Report to lie upon the Table.
PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP G).
Sir James Woodhouse reported from the Committee on Croup G of Private Bills; That, for the convenience of parties, the Committee had adjourned till Tuesday next, at Eleven of the clock; Report to lie upon the Table.
NORTH BRITISH RAILWAY (SUBSTITUTED BILL).
Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
PETITIONS.
  BURIAL PLACE (EXEMPTION FROM RATES) (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Paisley in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  COAL.
  Petition from Newport (Monmouthshire), against proposed Customs Export Duty; to lie upon the Table.
  COAL MINES (EMPLOYMENT) BILL.
  Petitions in favour, from Bretton; Stanhope Silkstone; Barrow Hemœtite; Carlton Main; Darfield Main; Gorton Wood; New Oaks; and Agecroft (No. 3) Collieries: to lie upon the Table.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION (HIGHER GRADE AND EVENING CONTINUATION SCHOOLS).
  Petition from Wolverhampton, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION (NEW CODE OF REGULATIONS FOR DAY SCHOOLS).
  Petition from Leicester, for alteration of Article 101 (g); to lie upon the Table.
  GUN LICENCE DUTY.
  Petition from Birmingham, for exemption of members of Civilian Rifle Clubs; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION BILL.
  Petitions in favour, from Barking; Barry; and London (two); to lie upon the table.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SCOTLAND) ACT (1894) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petition from Paisley, against; to lie upon the Table.
  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  Petitions against; from Cirencester and Sydenham; to lie upon the Table.

  MINES (EIGHT HOURS) BILL.
  Petitions in favour, from Great Mountain; Park; Trimsaran; Pantycelyn;

  1285
  Pentremawr; Caerbryn; Pontyberem; Fence; Darfield Main; Barrow Hemœtite; Bretton; New Oaks; Gorton Wood; Stanhope Silkstone; Carlton Main; Ty Trist (No. 1); Tillery; Pochin (No. 1); Arral; Arral Greffin; White Rose; Whitworth Pit; Whitworth Drift; Agrecroft (No. 3); Rose Heyworth; Coalbrook Vale; Celyner; and Cwmtillery Collieries; to lie upon the Table.

  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL.
  Petition from Seghill, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Forres, for alteration; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN BILL.
  Petitions against, from Aberdare (three); Biggleswade; Gainsborough; Peterborough; and Bridgwater; to lie upon the Table.

  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN RILL.
  Petitions in favour, from Goole; Newton Heath; Penarth (three); Barry (four); Cadoxton; Sheffield (two); Scarborough (five); Willenhall
  (thirteen); Hanley; British Temperance League; Sandwich; Rawmarsh; Leicester; and Cupar Angus; to lie upon the Table.

  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour, from Drainie; Montrose; Golspie; and Paisley; to lie upon the Table.
  SOVEREIGN'S OATH ON ACCESSION BILL.
  Petitions against, from Bo'ness and Dysart; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  WESTERN AUSTRALIA (CONSTITUTION ACT AMENDMENT ACT, 1900, No. V.)
  Paper [presented 18th April] to be printed. [No. 135.
  QUEENSLAND (THE PARLIAMENT OF THE COMMONWEALTH ELECTIONS ACT AND THE ELECTIONS ACTS 1885–1898 AMENDMENT ACT, 1890).
  Paper [presented 18th April] to be printed. [No. 136.]
  ARMY (MEDICAL DEPARTMENT).
  Copy presented, of Report for the year 1899, Vol. XLI. [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  ARMY.
  Copy presented, of Report by Major General Sir H. E. Colvile, K.C.M.G., C.B., on the operations of the Ninth Division at Paardeberg [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  Copies presented, of Diplomatic and Consular Reports, Annual Series, Nos. 2577 and 2578 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  POOR RELIEF (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Copy ordered, "of Statement of the Amount expended by Boards of Guardians for In-maintenance and Out-door Relief in England and Wales during the half-year ended Lady Day, 1901."
  "And, similar Statement for the half-year ending Michaelmas, 1901."—(Mr. Grant Lawson.)

  ULTIMUS HÆRES (SCOTLAND) (ACCOUNT AND LIST OF ESTATES).
  Return ordered, "of Abstract Account of the Receipts and Payments of the King's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in Scotland in the year ended the 31st day of December, 1900, in the administration of Estates and Treasure Trove on behalf of the Crown."
  "And, of Alphabetical List of Estates which fell to the Crown as Ultimus Hæres in Scotland administered by the King's and Lord Treasurer's Remembrancer in the same year."—(Mr. Austen Chamberlain.)

QUESTIONS.

  SOUTH AFRICA—ADMINISTRATION OF NATIVE AFFAIRS IN ANNEXED REPUBLICS.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the

  1287
  Secretary of State for the Colonies whether any steps have yet been taken, or are immediately to be taken, in reference to native affairs at Pretoria or Johannesburg; whether he has before him any report on the native reserves and locations in the Transvaal and Orange Colonies; whether he can yet state what measures His Majesty's Government intend to take to fulfil their pledge as to the welfare of the natives; and whether Parliament will be given an opportunity of discussing the measures proposed to be taken for the welfare of the natives in the annexed territories before such measures are finally adopted.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): The only step which has been taken in this direction up to the present time is the appointment as native commissioner of Sir Godfrey Lagden, who displayed exceptional ability in the management of the natives of Basutoland before and during the war. As regards the administration of native affairs, any steps which have been taken, or may be taken in the early future, will be of a purely provisional character.

  BRITISH INDIAN SUBJECTS IN NATAL.
  MR. CAINE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that numbers of European refugees have been permitted to return from Natal to the Transvaal and open their shops there, but that no permits have been granted to refugees being Indian British subjects; and whether he will make inquiry as to the reasons for this difference in the treatment of traders, and give such instructions as may be required.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I am awaiting a reply to a telegraphic inquiry which I have addressed to Sir Alfred Milner on the subject at the request of the hon. Member for North-East Bethnal Green.

  JAMESON RAID—POSITION OF CHARTERED COMPANY.
  MR. BLACK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the debtors in debts due to the late Transvaal Government other than the Chartered Company are to be exempted
  1288
  from payment thereof; if they are not to be exempted, what is the distinction in Principle drawn between the claim against the Chartered Company and that against any other debtor; if they are to be exempted, is there any precedent known to him or to his advisers for such exemption; and, if such precedent exists, will he give it.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: There is no intention of exempting debtors from the payment of debts due to the Transvaal Government which are legally enforceable The claim of the South African Republic against the Chartered Company was not an acknowledged debt, and there is no parallel between the cases stated.
  MR. BLACK: In every case in which the debt is disputed will it be forgiven?'
  [No answer was returned.]
  MR. ALFRED DAVIES: Will the right hon. Gentleman appoint a day for me to call upon him and inspect all the Papers in connection with the Jameson Raid, in order—
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  PLAGUE AT CAPE TOWN.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that the bubonic plague now raging in Cape Town and its vicinity has assumed serious proportions; whether the statistics published of those who had taken this disease and of those to whom it has proved fatal are confined to cases in Cape Town itself; and whether he can state the numbers in Cape Colony who have been affected with and who have succumbed to this disease; and whether he will include the total number of the sufferers from this disease and the deaths caused by it in the published weekly returns.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The publication of statistics is a question within the province of the Government of the Cape Colony, but I am asking the Cape Government if they will supply in the weekly bulletin the additional information as to the total numbers of those affected by and of the deaths from the disease which the hon. Member desires.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been called to the fact that the German authorities have already taken action to prevent the infection from bubonic plague now raging in Cape Colony reaching German ports; and whether any steps have been taken to prevent infection reaching this country in ships bound to this country from South Africa; and, if not, whether any such precautionary measure is contemplated.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. WALTER LONG,): My right hon. friend has asked me to reply to this question. I am aware of the action taken by the German Government. Arrangements are made by the sanitary authorities at the ports in this country for the examination of all vessels coming from places affected with plague, and for taking such action as may be necessary for dealing with persons or things on board from which danger of infection is apprehended. Special memoranda prepared by the medical officer of the Local Government Board with respect to plague have been issued to the local authorities, and such further advice and instructions as may from time to time be found requisite will be issued to them. Where exceptional circumstances render it expedient, it is my practice to send a medical inspector to confer with the port authorities and their officers.

  BOER PRISONERS—INTERNMENT IN INDIA.
  MR. SCHWANN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has taken measures to secure that none of the charges consequent upon the detention of Boer prisoners in India, for example, the salaries of persons employed in their supervision, shall be charged on the revenues of India.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord G. HAMILTON,): The Government of India have been instructed that "all cost will be borne by Imperial Government." I have not considered it necessary to give more detailed instructions.

  BEER RATIONS FOR RETURNING SOLDIERS.
  SIR CUTHBERT QUILTER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the military authorities have arranged to supply beer rations in place of rum to soldiers en route to or from foreign stations; whether a contract has recently been completed for a quantity of ale for the troops returning from South Africa; and, if so, whether he will state to what firm or firms the supply has been entrusted; and what precautions have been adopted to ensure that the liquor be brewed from barley-malt, and hops only.
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER,): A contract has been made for beer for issue to troops returning from South Africa in lieu of a ration of rum, upon a requisition received from the War Office, for 7,000 hogsheads of bitter beer of a certain strength, without any stipulation as to the ingredients. Offers were requested from ten of the principal brewers, eight tenders being received. Of the total quantity of
  7,000 hogsheads, 6,200 were ordered from Ind, Coope and Company, Limited, of Burton, who stated, in explanation of their quotation, that they would supply best Burton brewed beers manufactured from the finest malt and hops free from all chemicals and deleterious ingredients. The remaining 800 hogsheads were ordered from Watney, Combe, Reid and Company, Limited. No stipulation was considered necessary in view of the standing of the firm. The breweries are to be visited by the Inspector of Victualling Stores, who will examine the beer.
  SIR CUTHBERT QUILTER: Is it not the case that, until quite recently, tender forms for the supply of beer for the troops stipulated that it should be brewed from barley-malt and hops only?
  MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER: I cannot answer that question without notice.

  WAR EXPENDITURE—DETAILS.
  COLONEL NOLAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for

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  War if he will now give a few heads of the £140,000,000 Bill presented by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer for the South African War; and if he will inform the House how many millions have been spent on shipping; on animals; on food; on forage; on officers' pay; on soldiers' pay; on auxiliaries' pay; on arms and ammunition; on vehicles, engines, railways, and tools; and on tentage and camp equipage respectively.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): The figures are as follows for the services named—

  Total Estimated Millions.

  Total Spent Millions.

  Shipping

  22¾

  14¼

  Animals

  11

  8

  Food

  20¼

  12¼

  Forage

  11½

  6¼

  Officers' Pay

  2

  1¼

  Soldiers' Pay

  10

  5¼

  Auxiliaries' Pay

  13¾

  8

  Arms and Ammunition

  7¼

  5¼

  Vehicles, Railways, &c.

  6

  3¼

  Tentage and Camp Equipage

  2¼

  1

  Total

  106¾

  64¾

  MR. FLAVIN: Can the right hon. Gentleman say how much of the money was spent in the United Kingdom among the people who have to find it?
  MR. BRODRICK: I am afraid I cannot.

  BOER REFUGEE CAMPS.
  MR. OSMOND-WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been called to the Report of Dr. M'Kensie (brother of the Military Governor), and of Dr. Johnston, to the treatment of the women and children at the Boer refugee camp at Johannesburg, saying that the food there was unfit for human consumption, and the death rate among these women and children unusually high; and whether he proposes taking any steps to better their condition.
  MR. BRODRICK: I am aware of the Report mentioned. As regards the food, there were complaints at first, but the food was identically the same as that supplied to our own soldiers, and at the time, owing to the state of the railway lines, some hardship was unavoidable. The food has been for some time wholesome and sufficient. As regards the death rate, it is not the fact that it was abnormally high; figures have been telegraphed for, but from the information at present at my disposal it would appear that much of the sickness among the refugees had arisen before their arrival in camp, and further, that their health was steadily improving owing to the steps taken by the authorities with a competent medical staff.

  MEMBERS OF PARLIAMENT ON ACTIVE SERVICE.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state when he will be able to grant the Return asked for as to the Members of both Houses of Parliament who volunteered for active service in South Africa.
  MR. BRODRICK: This Return involves reference to South Africa, and as no public purpose would be served by it, I am not prepared to burden overworked officers in South Africa with preparing the statistics in question.
  MR. TULLY: Would the right hon. Gentleman grant the Return if I omitted the column as to wounds and casualties?
  MR. BRODRICK: No, Sir.

  PUBLICATION OF DESPATCHES.
  MR. YOUNGER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can state when the despatches from the General Officer Commanding the 8th Division, South African Field Force, will be made public.
  MR. BRODRICK: It is not proposed to publish any further despatches for operations prior to the 29th November, 1900.

  PEACE NEGOTIATIONS WITH GENERAL BOTHA.
  MR. BLACK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will

  1293
  now lay upon the Table the written despatch from Lord Kitchener giving his account of his conversation with General Botha upon 28th February last; and whether the Government has received a copy or abstract of General Botha's despatch to his own superiors giving his account of the same interview, or of that commenting upon the subsequent written communication sent him by Lord Kitchener.
  MR. BRODRICK: We have received no copy of General Botha's despatch to his superiors, and it is not proposed to lay any further Papers on the subject.
  MR. BLACK: The right hon. Gentleman has not replied to the first part of my question.
  MR. BRODRICK: I do not think we can lay anything on the Table which has not been laid.
  MR. BLACK: Is there anything in the despatch beyond what was published in the telegraphic communication?
  MR. BRODRICK: As far as I know, the Papers which have been laid on the Table give all the information.

  TRANSVAAL WAR SUPPLIES.
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether all the documents and papers relating to the armaments of the Transvaal Republic, the guns and ammunition ordered and delivered, and the dates when purchased, were found by the British Military authorities in the Boer Government offices on the occupation of Pretoria; and whether, among such papers, there are documents relating to the purchase of automatic guns, rifles, and ammunition from firms in England; and whether he will consent to publish such documents for the information of the House and the public.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Lord STANLEY,): It is not possible to say whether all the documents and papers referred to were found, but considerable information was gained from the records in the Government
  1294
  offices. The orders for war material were to a large extent executed through agents, and therefore the records did not show from what firms the consignments had been obtained in the first instance. I do not therefore consider it would be expedient to publish information obtained from such meagre sources.
  MR. DILLON: Will the Government undertake to inquire into this matter and let the British public know whence these arms and guns came?
  LORD STANLEY: I cannot add to my answer, which I have endeavoured to make as full as possible.
  MR. DILLON: I shall put a further question.

  MILITARY COURTS OF INQUIRY.
  COLONEL WELBY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether evidence taken on oath before a court of inquiry will be valid documentary evidence that can be produced at a court-martial without the witness being present.
  MR. BRODRICK: No, Sir. The witness will have to give his evidence over again under oath, as is the practice in ordinary civil courts.
  COLONEL WELBY: But if the witnesses cannot be produced, will the documentary evidence be accepted?
  MR. BRODRICK: The procedure will be the same as in civil courts.

  COLONIAL EXPENDITURE ON THE WAR.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state what is the total amount that the colonies of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Cape Colony, and Natal have respectively expended on the contingents which have been engaged in military operations in South Africa; what is the number of men
  that have been supplied by each colony; and what is the total cost to the Imperial Treasury in connection with these contingents respectively.
  MR. BRODRICK: I have no knowledge of the amounts expended by the colonies on their contingents, and it would require much calculation to give any estimate of the amount expended by the Imperial Treasury on these services. The numbers of the contingents were presented to the House as a Parliamentary Paper on the 18th March.

  AUSTRALIAN TROOPERS—ALLEGED DISTURBANCES IN CAPE TOWN.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that on the 28th March last a number of Australian troopers, who had been recently prisoners in the hands of the Boers, and were returning to Australia, attacked the offices of the South African newspaper and several private residences in Cape Town, using sticks and revolvers; and whether it is the intention of His Majesty's Government to hold any inquiry into this matter, and to provide compensation for the aggrieved individuals.
  MR. BRODRICK: Nothing is known of this.

  CANADIAN CONTINGENT FOR SOUTH AFRICAN CONSTABULARY—RAID ON OTTAWA HOTEL.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has any information that the Canadian contingent enlisted for the South African Constabulary during their stay at Ottawa, on the eve of their departure for South Africa, made on the 26th March last a raid on the bar of the Cecil Hotel, Ottawa; whether he is aware that the proprietor of the Cecil Hotel and the members of his family were seized and thrown into the street, and the orders of Lieutenant Colonel Steele, the Commanding Officer of the South African Constabulary, wholly disregarded, and whether the men, or any of them who took part in this riot, have been
  punished.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I have seen a newspaper report from which it appears that there was some disturbance at the Hotel Cecil, Ottawa, and that the member of the South African Constabulary who created the disturbance has been dismissed from the ranks. I have no official information on the subject.

  RETURN OF TROOPS—IMPERIAL YEOMANRY.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, before Lord Roberts left Johannesburg, the hon. Member for the Macclesfield Division, of the Imperial Yeomanry, was sent to Lord Roberts on behalf of the officers and men to induce Lord Roberts to fix a date for the return of the corps, but failed to obtain an interview with the Commander-in-Chief; and that on being referred to Lord Kitchener, he asked why the Imperial Yeomanry had been detained in South Africa, while the Household Corps and the 10th Hussars were allowed to return home, and asked, further, for a definition of the legal position of the Imperial Yeomanry, and that a day for their return should be named, but was informed by Lord Kitchener that the Imperial Yeomanry should remain as long as their services were required; and whether, having regard to the discontent which is alleged to prevail among the Imperial Yeomanry, he will now define the legal position of this corps and the terms under which it consented to go on active service, and will name a definite day for their return.
  MR. BRODRICK: Nothing is known of the interviews alluded to in the first paragraph. I am well aware of the natural desire of many members of the Imperial Yeomanry to return home, but they are willing loyally to abide by their terms of enlistment. Every consideration will be given to them which is possible, but as to the date of their return I have nothing to add to my reply of the 22nd instant.†
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Will the hon. Gentleman inquire whether this interview took place as stated in the public press some weeks ago?
  MR. BRODRICK: I have said we have no official knowledge.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: No official knowledge, or no knowledge at all?
  [No answer was returned.]
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I press for an answer.
  † See page 898.
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has no right to cross-examine a Minister.

  IMPERIAL YEOMANRY—ALLEGED ILL-TREATMENT OF EX-PRIVATE LEE AT NETLEY HOSPITAL.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that on the night of the 31st March last Private Michael Lee, late of the Imperial Yeomanry, who is at present confined to bed in Netley Hospital, suffering from fits, the result of injuries received in South Africa, was beaten by the night student in charge of his ward while suffering from a fit; and that this young student had given orders not to be disturbed whether any of those in his care were ill or not, and on being called by the nurse to see Lee, who was ill, said that when he had clone with him the patient would have few fits, and thereupon proceeded to beat him in such a manner that his face was almost unrecognisable for days after; can he state whether any inquiry was held into this case; and what was the name of and the punishment awarded to this student.
  MR. BRODRICK: A court of inquiry was ordered to sit yesterday and report on the matter.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: When will its report be received?
  MR. BRODRICK: I cannot say.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I will repeat the question this day week.

  SOLDIERS' PAY—ALLOTMENTS TO WIVES.
  MR. CAINE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been called to the failure of the military authorities in South Africa to report home the allotment of pay to their wives in this country by Private W. J. Maukee, No.
  25,330, enlisted 21st December, 1900, for the M. S. Hospital. Woodstock; Private John Stapleton, No. 29,204, Salisbury G. M. Company, Johannesburg; Private Albert Ivey, No. 25,347, Cape Medical Staff Corps, Middelburg, with a number of other cases; and whether any action has been taken to remedy the matter.
  LORD STANLEY: The only case of which I am aware is that to which the hon. Member specially drew my attention. A telegram has been sent to the general officer commanding the lines of communication to expedite the remittances.
  MR. CAINE: Has no reply been received?
  LORD STANLEY: No, Sir.
  MR. CAINE: Is the noble Lord aware that he gave me an exactly similar answer three weeks ago?
  LORD STANLEY: Yes, and I am sorry to say the same state of affairs exist now as then. We have got no reply to our telegram.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Did you pay for a reply?
  [No answer was returned.]
  MR. CAINE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that Trooper J. Kerr, who enlisted in the Sharpshooters 28th January, attached to the 23rd Battalion Imperial Yeomanry, sailed for South Africa, 28th March, as Acting Provost Sergeant, leaving 14s. per week out of his pay of 5s. per diem for his wife, residing at 2, Temperley Road, Balham; that up to date Mrs. Kerr has received nothing, and is unable to obtain any reply to her repeated applications, although from the date of her husband's enlistment she has received the monthly Government allowance of 1s. 1d. per day payable monthly for herself and child; and can he say why Mrs. Kerr has not received any reply to her application for back pay, and to whom she, and others in similar position, ought to apply for redress.
  LORD STANLEY: The trooper in question, appears to have gone abroad without making a formal allotment to his wife. Evidence of his intention has now been obtained and the payments sanctioned. Any similar applications should be addressed to the Station Paymaster at Hounslow.

  DECEASED SOLDIERS' EFFECTS.
  SIR JAMES FERGUSSON: I beg to ask the Secretary

  1299
  of State for War whether he is aware that delay takes place in distributing the effects of soldiers dying in South Africa, and in the payment to their next of kin of the war grant of £5 due to their next of kin in case of death on active service, from which no deduction can be made on any account; whether the delay is due to the inexperience of the staff of clerks employed on these accounts; and whether a settlement could be accelerated by the adjustment being made by the quartermaster and colour sergeants at the regimental depots.
  LORD STANLEY: The delay in distributing the estates of soldiers dying in. South Africa arises entirely from the exigencies of active service in a country 6,000 miles away, where regimental office work is only carried on under the greatest difficulty. To transfer the work from the large War Office staff, which has now got it thoroughly up to date, to the depôt staff, which is absolutely inexperienced in the work, would have the effect of indefinitely delaying the distribution. I may add that the war gratuity is as much a portion of the estate as any other asset, and is subject to the same statutory obligations, but it has recently been decided to issue it without waiting for the report of the estate provided the legal claim of the applicant is satisfactorily proved.

  VOLUNTEER UNIFORMS.
  LIEUT.-COLONEL PRYCE-JONES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, seeing that there are several Volunteer corps which must be re-clothed before their annual camp this year, and that it is therefore imperative that orders for their clothing should be, placed in, the hands of contractors without delay, and also that a new pattern uniform is still under consideration, can these corps now order their clothing without waiting indefinitely for the sealed pattern, or are they to invest in uniforms which will be obsolete in a few months, as one of these two courses must evidently be adopted unless the new pattern is now sealed.
  MR. BRODRICK: Volunteer commanding officers wishing for authority to change the uniform of their corps or
  1300
  adopt a working dress have but to comply with the Volunteer regulations and make application for Permission to do so, forwarding at the same time the pattern of articles proposed. The sealed patterns for the Regulars do not govern the uniform of Volunteer corps.

  VOLUNTEER OFFICERS AND JURY SERVICE.
  LIEUT.-COLONEL PRYCE-JONES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can see his way to recommend that officers of Volunteers shall be exempted from service on juries.
  LORD STANLEY: This question has been thoroughly considered on several occasions, and it is not found possible to grant the exemption.

  VOLUNTEER ESTABLISHMENT STATISTICS.
  LIEUTENANT-COLONEL PRYCE-JONES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he can explain why the information given regarding the detail of the establishments of Volunteer Corps in Army Estimates for prevous years, as well as for the year ending 31st March, 1901, namely, Appendix 10 (Vote 5), pages 191 to 201, has not been given in Army Estimates for the current year, ending
  31st March, 1902; and whether it is intended to give such information, and, if so, when.
  LORD STANLEY: The time given for the preparation of the Estimates this year was so short that it was not possible to compile this Appendix. The details will be published later.

  5TH BATTALION ROYAL INNISKILLING FUSILIERS.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the
  5th Battalion Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, who have been in England for more than eleven months, and are now stationed at Dover, are anxious to be disembodied, and whether the date for the disembodiment of this Militia Regiment can now be fixed; and whether, in the interval which may elapse before its disembodiment, the regiment can be removed from. England to Ballyshannon, Enniskillen, or Londonderry.
  LORD STANLEY: No, Sir. I am not aware that this battalion wishes to be disembodied, nor can I fix at present any date for such disembodiment. It is not proposed to move the battalion from its present station.

  FORT BROCKHURST—CASE OF PRIVATE BOWLES.
  MR. HAY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware that the medical officer inspecting invalids at Fort Brockhurst recommended No. 4,740, Private C. Bowles, 7th Rifle Brigade, on 7th November, 1900, for an ordinary furlough without a medical examination, thereby causing him to be disembodied as a militia reservist under Army Order 232 (5), and preventing him from obtaining a pension for his service in South Africa, and that but for other assistance he would have been left a hopeless cripple, with an invalid wife and two children dependent upon him, with no future but the workhouse; whether he will give the report by the medical officer to the officer who granted the furlough of Private Bowles; and whether he will state what measures he has taken to prevent such procedure by medical officers inspecting invalids from South Africa.
  LORD STANLEY: The facts are not as stated in the question. This man was invalided home for rheumatism, and on arrival at Southampton was examined by a medical officer and passed fit for duty. The man himself acknowledged that he stated to this officer that he was quite well. He was accordingly allowed to go on furlough. Since that time he had a relapse, but failed to report himself, as he should have done, to the military authorities. The Secretary of Lloyd's Patriotic Fund, to whom he applied for help, reported the case to the authorities. A medical officer was at once sent to treat him; his disembodiment was cancelled, and he was considered as on sick furlough, pending the decision of the Chelsea Commissioners on his case. The only person to blame in this matter is Private Bowles. I am unaware of any cases similar to that now referred to by the hon. Member.

  CASE OF PRIVATE THOMAS RYAN.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War
  1302
  is he aware that Private Thomas Ryan, a soldier who served throughout the whole South African campaign, was for the offence of drunkenness on the 28th January last sentenced by a district court-martial to three years penal servitude; that on the night of his alleged offence Ryan was wet to the skin, and had been exposed for several days to constant and severe wettings; whether any previous conviction had been reported against him; where he is now imprisoned; and will he recommend the Commander-in-Chief to reconsider the sentence with a view to some remission.
  LORD STANLEY: Private Thomas Ryan was found, when he should have been on sentry, hopelessly, intoxicated. This offence on active service is, as the hon. Member will admit, one of extreme gravity. His offence, however, will, like those of all other soldiers committed on active service, be duly considered, and the award, if necessary, revised by the Commander-in-Chief.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: Was not this unfortunate soldier suffering from hunger and the effects of the campaign generally?
  LORD STANLEY: My information is that he was suffering from drink.

  MARK IV. BULLETS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War, in view of the fact that the 50,000,000 defective Mark IV. bullets were made to specification, will he state the contract price paid to the contractors.
  LORD STANLEY: I have nothing to add to the reply I gave to the hon. Member's question on the
  18th instant.*
  MR. WEIR: But this question has never been asked before.
  LORD STANLEY: I think the hon. Member will find it has been.
  MR. WEIR: I shall take the earliest opportunity of calling attention to the manner in which dust is being thrown into the eyes of the public.

  IMPERIAL YEOMANRY—TITLE.
  COLONEL WELBY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether
  * See page 602.

  1303
  he will insert in his resolution on Army Organisation the title "Imperial" before "Yeomanry," to afford opportunity of discussing the appropriateness of that title for a force enlisted for the local defence of the United Kingdom, and not for Imperial, purposes.
  MR. BRODRICK: The resolution is intended to provide opportunity for discussion of the numbers, cost, and organisation of the forces proposed, and I hardly think it would be desirable to divert attention from these important questions by amending the resolution so as to make occasion for a debate on the title proposed for the Yeomanry.
  COLONEL WELBY: Then are we to understand that the title of "Yeomanry" is not important?
  MR. BRODRICK: I did not say that. I only suggested that there were other matters of greater importance.

  ROYAL IRISH REGIMENT.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he is aware of the dissatisfaction existing in the Royal Irish Regiment, stationed at Aldershot, embodied since
  14th May 1900, at not being yet disbanded or allowed to return to their homos on unlimited working furlough as other Militia regiments were allowed after six months service; and whether he can say when this regiment will be disbanded or allowed unlimited working furlough.
  LORD STANLEY: I am not aware of any such dissatisfaction. No date can be given at present for the disembodiment of this regiment. The question of extended furlough rests entirely with the commanding officer, to whom general instructions have been issued, and who alone can decide, with a view to the efficiency of his regiment, how many men he can snare at a particular time.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Is the noble Lord aware that this regiment refused to volunteer for service in South Africa, because they did not desire to fight against the Boers, and the men are under the impression that they are being punished for that refusal?
  LORD STANLEY: I am not.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I am, for a large number of them are my constituents.

  IRISH GUARDS—FORAGE CAP.
  DR. THOMPSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if his attention has been directed to the unpopularity of the undress forage cap supplied to the Irish Guards, and if he will order that this regiment be supplied with a cap similar to the Cold-stream or Grenadier Guards, having round it a distinctive green band; and if it is the intention of the Government to move the Irish Guards to Dublin.
  LORD STANLEY: No complaints have been received as regards the new pattern of Guards' cap, which will not be confined to the Irish Guards, but which it is proposed to issue to the Brigade. There is no immediate intention of moving the Irish Guards to Dublin, but their connection with Ireland will naturally weigh in deciding their station.

  MILITIA EMBODIMENTS AND DISEMBODIMENTS.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if in future he can arrange to give Militia battalions more notice of embodiment or disembodiment than they have had hitherto.
  LORD STANLEY: Every consideration is already given to this matter, but I must inform the hon. Member that many commanding officers complained that too long notice was given of embodiment. As regards disembodiment, it would appear inexpedient to retain the troops in order to give a longer notice.

  MILITIA OFFICERS' GRATUITY.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if Militia officers who have served for over a year on army pay are entitled to the £100 gratuity even if their battalions are still embodied.
  LORD STANLEY: The matter is under consideration.

  ROYAL GARRISON REGIMENTS— SEPARATION ALLOWANCES.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he can state what allowances are to be given to married men in the Royal Garrison regiments for their wives and children, and how many wives and children there are to be provided for belonging to the 1st battalion of Royal Garrison Regiment formed.
  LORD STANLEY: The women will either be with their husbands, if the accommodation be sufficient, or will be granted the usual separation allowances. I do not know as yet for how many provision must be made.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNER: Can the noble Lord give a rough answer to the last part of my question?
  LORD STANLEY: I am afraid I cannot.

  OFFICIAL LANGUAGE IN THE MALTESE COURTS.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that his direction, dated 13th March, 1899, to the Governor of Malta to proclaim the substitution of the English for the Italian language in Malta in all legal proceedings, has created discontent among the population, and has been the subject of protest by the elected members of the Council of Government of Malta to the Governor against this substitution of the English for the Italian language; what reply did he give on his visit to Malta last November to the deputation of the representatives of the Maltese people who waited on him for the purpose of urging on Her late Majesty's Government the inadvisability of the enforcement of the English language on the inhabitants of Malta; and whether, having regard to the opposition offered to the intended substitution of English for Italian in Malta in the proceedings of the courts of justice, which began twenty years ago, and to the fact that the Italian language has been the educational language of the Maltese for the last nine centuries, and that the use of the language by its user in the Proclamations of the Governors and the command of William IV. when granting a
  1306
  commission for the codification of the Maltese laws that the Italian laguage should be the authorised text of the code, His Majesty's Government will refrain from the enforcement in Malta of the English in substitution for the Italian language.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member's question does not correctly state the facts, which I have already explained in my answer to previous questions on the 7th and 10th December last.† I have no reason to believe that any discontent exists among the population of Malta, and by the last return I find that the parents of the children in the elementary schools of Malta have to the extent of 98 or 99 per cent. elected for English in preference to Italian. As I have already stated, the subject to which the hon. Member refers was not mentioned at my interview with the elected members in Malta. I see no reason to modify the position which His Majesty's Government have adopted.
  MR. POWER: When will the correspondence be laid on the Table?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I hope very shortly; it is being prepared.

  MAURITIUS JUDICIAL VACANCY.
  MR. BOLAND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, in filling up the vacancy on the judicial bench of Mauritius caused by the death of Mr. Justice Smith, regard will be paid to the necessity of appointing a judge who has a competent knowledge of the French language, in view of the fact that French is the
  recognised language of that colony.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: A knowledge of French is always regarded as an important qualification for appointment to the bench of the Supreme Court of Mauritius.

  INDIA—ETAH MURDERS—COMMUTATION OF DEATH SENTENCES.
  MR. CAINE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if his attention has been called to a sentence of death
  † See Debates, Vol. lxxxviii., pages 203 and 345.

  1307
  which has recently been passed upon seventeen men by the justices of the North West Provinces for the murder of two persons living in the Etah district, against which appeal was taken to the judges of the High Court, with the result that the sentence of death has been confirmed in the case of sixteen of the convicted men, one sentence being commuted to penal servitude for life; if so, has the Viceroy revised the sentences in any way with a view to abating the number of persons to be executed.
  LORD G. HAMILTON: I learn from the Government of India that in the case referred to sixteen persons were originally condemned to death by the sessions court, and the sentence was confirmed in the case of all sixteen by the High Court of the North-West Provinces. The sentence of death has, however, been commuted by the lieutenant governor to one of transportation for life in the case of twelve out of the sixteen. No appeal has been preferred to the Viceroy in the case.

  COOPER'S HILL COLLEGE.
  MR. WALTER PALMER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he will inform the House whether the new members of the Board of Visitors of Cooper's Hill Engineering College have yet been appointed by the universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and London, and whether the committee of the Board of Visitors, including the three new visitors, will forthwith inquire into and report upon the working, discipline, and constitution of the college, and the relations of the visitors, president, and teaching staff; and whether he can assure the House that the report of their inquiry will be laid before the House, and an opportunity given for discussion during the present session.
  LORD G. HAMILTON: The universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and London have been requested to nominate representatives to the Board of Visitors of the Royal Indian Engineering College, and as soon as these nominations are made I shall ask the Board of Visitors to appoint a committee for the purpose mentioned in the question. I should
  1308
  have no objection to publishing their report, but I cannot now undertake that a day shall be set apart for its discussion.

  CHINA-RUSSIA AND MANCHURIA.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any representations have been made by His Majesty's Government to Russia in reference to the occupation of Manchuria, in view or China's refusal to sign the agreement with Russia.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Viscount CRANBORNE,): No such representations have been made.

  BRITISH OCCUPATION OF EGYPT.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if His Majesty's Government can name a date upon which evacuation of Egypt by the British Forces will be carried out.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: No, Sir.

  TREATMENT OF IMPRISONED DERVISH LEADERS.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if he can state whether the Dervish leaders Mahmoud and Osman Digna are still detained as prisoners, and, if so, where they are, and what treatment is accorded to them.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: Mahmoud and Osman Digna, together with other Dervish leaders and their families, are interned as prisoners of war at Rosetta. They do not undergo hard labour, and are considerately treated. The prisoners are visited monthly by a British officer. Good care is taken of the women and children, and educational instruction is given to the latter.
  MR. DILLON: May I ask why these men are still being detained, a year and a half after the close of the war?
  [No answer was returned.]
  MR. DILLON: Is the silence rule in operation again?

  WAIMA INCIDENT.
  MR. BILL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the present condition of the negotiations with the French Government respecting the Waima affair; and whether he can now state when the arbitration proceedings are likely to be commenced.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: The Arbitration Convention dealing with the Waima and Sergent Malamine cases has been signed, and will be submitted by the French Government for legislative sanction when the French Chambers reassemble about the middle of next month. The Convention provides that the ratifications shall be exchanged as soon as possible.

  EXPORT COAL DUTY—AMERICAN AND CANADIAN TRADE.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can state the quantity of coal exported in 1900 from the United States of America and Canada; and whether the United States Government imposes any duty on coal exported to British possessions.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): The quantity of coal exported in 1900 from the United States of America was
  5,422,493 tons. There is no export duty on United States coal exported to British possessions.

  FALLING COAL PRICKS AND FREIGHTS.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether in his inquiries into the rates of outward freights on coal, and the effect of higher freights and coal prices in stimulating trade, he noted the fall that had occurred in freights from Cardiff, and in the f.o.b. prices of coal last month as compared with similar freights and prices a year ago; if, before framing his Budget proposals, his attention had been drawn to the reduction of half a million tons in the export of coal in March as compared with the corresponding month last year, and that this reduction of 12 per cent. in volume had been accompanied by a reduction of 20 per cent. in value; and
  1310
  whether commercial experts in his Department attribute, this decrease in trade to the lower prices charged foreign buyers of coal, or attribute the lower prices to a lessened demand for coal from abroad.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,): My attention has been drawn to the fall in prices and freights in 1901 as compared with 1900. It may be presumed that the decrease in the export of coal, which I believe amounted to 9 per cent. in the first three months of the year, is attributable to a lessened demand for it. It is no matter of surprise that a period of extraordinary activity and inflated prices, like 1900, should be followed by a quiet year, and I framed my estimate of the yield of duty accordingly.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: The figures for March are correct, are they not?
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I do not say that.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: You do not say that they are incorrect.

  AMERICAN COAL EXPORTS.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can state the quantities of coal exported from the United States of America to European countries, and separately to South America, in the years 1890, 1899, and 1900 respectively, and will he give the percentages of the increases or decreases shown.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The quantities of coal (domestic produce) exported from the United States to European countries in the years named were 138,080 tons in 1890, 35,322 tons in 1899, and 635,237 tons in 1900. The corresponding quantities exported to I South America were 49,355 tons, 88,733 tons, and 214,126 tons respectively. Taking the amounts exported in 1890 to Europe as 100, the amount for 1899 was 26, and for 1900, 460. The corresponding figures for export to South America are 100, 180, and 434. The figures for 1890 refer to the year ending 30th June, those for 1899 and 1900 to the calendar years.

  INCIDENCE OF NEW COAL DUTY.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, under the operation of the new coal duty, British coal supplied to a British vessel for ship's use by a British subject in the British possession of Malta will be liable to the duty, and similar coal supplied for a similar purpose, to a foreign vessel, by a foreign subject, at Cardiff or Newport, will be free of duty.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: The answer is, Yes. We do not differentiate between British and foreign vessels, and Cardiff would gain by foreign vessels coaling there.

  COAL TRADE WITH THE WEST INDIES.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can give the quantities of coal exported last year from this country and the United States of America, respectively, to the British and Foreign West Indies.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The quantity of coal exported from the United Kingdom in 1900 to the British West Indies (including Bermuda) was 62,884 tons, and the quantity exported to the Foreign West Indies was 26,367 tons. The quantity exported from the United States to the West Indies and Bermuda was 760,879 tons. Separate figures for the United States exports to the British and Foreign West Indies are not available.

  BUNKER COAL.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he can state approximately what proportion of coal exported abroad from this country, and upon which the duty will be charged, is consumed by British vessels and British subjects; and whether it is proposed to place any limitation on the quantity of coal that may be supplied at one time to a foreign vessel for bunkers free of duty.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I cannot give any estimate such as is asked for in the first paragraph of the question. The regulations concerning the shipment of bunker coal on vessels proceeding
  1312
  abroad, whether British or foreign owned, provide that the quantity allowed be calculated on the daily consumption and length of voyage in each case.

  RETURNS OF BUNKER COAL.
  SIR JOSEPH PEASE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, in reference to Return No. 119,
  2nd April, 1901, whether in Table C, folio 21, the Return of coal shipped for ships' use on foreign voyages, during the years 1899 and 1900, amounted to 12,226,801 tons in 1899, and 11,752,316 tons in 1900, are coals in addition to the coals named in Return B, folio 20, for those years, namely. 41,180,300 tons in 1899, and 44,089,197 tons in 1900, or are coals already included in those Returns.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Coal shipped for ships' use on foreign voyages is not included in the Return of coal exported.

  SOUTH WALES PATENT FUEL AND COKE INDUSTRIES.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can state approximately how many workmen are employed at Cardiff, Newport, Swansea, and elsewhere in this country in the manufacture of coal into patent fuel and coke which is afterwards exported abroad, and upon which the new coal duty will be imposed.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: It is not possible to give the information desired.

  COAL CONSUMPTION IN PIG IRON PRODUCTION.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has formed any estimate of the quantity of coal consumed in the production of pig iron afterwards exported abroad and used as the raw material in the manufacture of articles imported into the United Kingdom and sold in competition with articles made in Sheffield and other centres of British industry; and whether he has considered the advisability of imposing a tax on coal so used and virtually exported.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: The quantity of pig iron of British make exported

  1313
  in 1900 was 1,427,525 tons. I have no knowledge as to the quantity of coal consumed in its production, or as to the proportion of such iron re-imported into this country in a manufactured form. I do not propose to impose a tax on coal so used.

  DURATION OF COAL SUPPLY
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has in his Department any information as to the duration of our supplies of coal suitable for export purposes; and if so, will he lay it upon the Table of the House.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: The duration of our supplies of coal suitable for export purposes depends on the duration of our coal supply—a matter of purely hypothetical opinion. I have no information on the subject, beyond what is open to the hon. Member.

  CLOSING OF SOUTH WALES COLLIERIES.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that a number of the smaller collieries in South Wales have been closed owing to the unprofitable nature of the coal trade at present; and if he can state the number of workmen that have been thrown out of employment in consequence, and the further number that may be thrown out when notices now pending expire.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. RITCHIE,): I am informed by the Inspector of Mines for the South Wales District that the number of collieries which have been closed or are about to be closed is nine. The total number of persons employed at the collieries last year was
  781.

  DEARNESS AND SCARCITY OF COAL.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether any Parliamentary or departmental inquiry has taken place into the coal question since the Report of the Select Committee of the House of Commons appointed in 1873 to inquire into the then dearness and scarcity of coal; and whether, before formulating his Budget
  1314
  proposals, he had read the condemnation by the Select Committee of 1873 of the idea of an export duty on coal.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: In answer to paragraph one, I have to reply no, so far as I am aware. In
  reply to paragraph two I have to say I was acquainted with the opinion expressed by the Select Committee, and noticed some of their arguments. But that opinion referred to proposals for imposing such a duty as would practically prevent the export of coal.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: But is the right hon. Gentleman aware there were special objections in the case of coal which did not apply to other articles?
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: That was the view of the Committee.

  ALLEGED DISCOVERY OF GOLD AT LEITH
  MR. JOHN WILSON: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he is aware that a discovery of gold-bearing strata has been made at Leith, and that the Crown authorities have intimated their claim to the gold; and will he send Sir David Barbour to report thereon, and delay the imposition of the coal export duty of 1s. per ton until he has found time to report thereon.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I am afraid I cannot see the connection between the discovery of gold at Leith, the coal duty, and Sir David Barbour.
  MR. JOHN WILSON: The point is in the suggestion that you need not ruin the export coal trade.

  THE NEW SUGAR DUTY
  MR. CAUSTON: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he can state what steps are being taken to secure to the exporters of confectionery the drawback on goods despatched since the passing of the Budget resolution on sugar.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: The Finance Act will include provision of a drawback of the duty paid by the exporter on the sugar used in his exports. Such, however, will not come into effect for some

  1315
  time, because the stock of duty-free sugar must be exhausted first. I expect shortly to receive a deputation of the trade on the subject.
  MR. KEARLEY: What is to happen, meanwhile, to export confectioners who have not laid in a supply of duty-free sugar?
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: There has been a very considerable amount of duty-free sugar imported in anticipation of the Budget, much more than the usual supply.

  IMPORTED HONEY AND THE SUGAR DUTY.
  MR. KEARLEY: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it is proposed to charge the sugar duty upon imported honey which consists to the extent of four-fifths of its weight of invert and cane sugar; if so, how he proposes to levy an equivalent duty upon honey produced in this country.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: No duty is charged on importations of pure honey, but if mixed with sugar it will be liable to the proportionate sugar duty.

  PRESERVED FRUITS AND THE DUTY.
  MR. KEARLEY: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is aware that the Customs are assessing and charging the full sugar duty upon the gross bulk weight of fruits preserved in syrup on the assumption that the whole weight of the article is due to nothing but sugar, whereas the percentage present rarely exceeds ten per cent.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: Directions have already been issued to confine the assessment of duty to the quantity of sugar used in manufacturing the articles. Pending analysis the importer can obtain delivery of the goods on deposit of an amount sufficient to cover the probable duty.
  MR. KEARLEY: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in assessing the duty on articles preserved with sugar, any steps are being taken by the Customs to distinguish between the added sugar and that natural
  1316
  to the article, and by what tests will such differentiation be made.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: The Customs are taking steps to distinguish between natural and added sugar, and to confine the duty-charge to the latter. The distinction is arrived at by chemical analysis.

  CONDENSED MILK AND THE DUTY.
  MR. KEARLEY: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in assessing the duty on condensed milk, any allowance is being made for the milk sugar naturally present in milk; if so, what is the amount; whether he is aware that there are brands of condensed milk imported in which there is no added sugar; and whether the policy at present in practiced by the Customs of levying the full sugar duty on the bulk weight of condensed milk irrespective of the, sugar therein contained will be applied to condensed milk of this description.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: Allowance will be made for the natural milk sugar, the amount of which in any particular case will depend on the character of the milk, If no sugar be added, the condensed milk will be free of duty.

  DRAWBACK ON BRITISH REFINED SUGAR.
  SIR JOSEPH DIMSDALE: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is prepared to make a provision for a drawback to be given upon British refined sugar exported from
  England to places abroad, in view of the fact that the export trade will be injuriously affected if such a drawback is not allowed.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: Yes, Sir.

  NEW ISSUE OF CONSOLS.
  MR. STUART SAMUEL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he will take steps to secure facilities from the Bank of England so that it may consent to advance money upon the security of the part paid scrip of the new issue of Consols.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: This is not a matter in my control, but I am informed

  1317
  by the Bank of England that they will advance money upon the security of the partly paid scrip of the new issue of consols on their usual terms.

  OXFORD CEMETERIES—MARTIN'S ACT.
  SIR WALTER FOSTER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether cemeteries, as, for example, the three new cemeteries at Oxford, which were provided under Martin's Act, and which have been used for several years without having been consecrated, in whole or part, are outside the purview of the Burial Act, 1900, with reference to consecration.
  MR. RITCHIE: The answer is in the negative.
  SIR WALTER FOSTER: Then has the right hon. Gentleman changed his opinion in the last few days, for he told me that all cases approved prior to the passing of the Act did not come under the new Act.
  MR. RITCHIE: That is a totally different question.
  SIR WALTER FOSTER: When cemeteries were approved under the old Burial Act, will they remain under that Act and not be affected by the new Act? Will cemeteries under Martin's Act come under the new Act with regard to consecration only?
  MR. RITCHIE: The question is simply whether, where they were established under Martin's Act, they are outside the purview of the Act of 1900 as regards consecration. I am advised that under the new Act it is quite sufficient that a desire from the locality should be expressed for the consecration of some part of a cemetery of this kind, and the Home Office will take steps to see whether an Order to give effect to the desire should be made.

  CHILD HAWKERS—LICENCES.
  MR. CRAWFORD SMITH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department
  1318
  whether the Government will extend to the rest of England the system of licensing children selling in our streets, provided for by the Liverpool Corporation Act, 1898, and experimentally put into force with such satisfactory results in Liverpool in 1899.
  MR. RITCHIE: The subject of street trading by children comes within the inquiry now being conducted by a Joint Committee of the Home Office, the Board of Education, and the Board of Trade. I must wait for the Report of the Committee before I can be in a a position to answer my hon. friend.

  FISHING BOATS—DAY SIGNALS.
  MR. CROMBIE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware of the fact that while a steam-line fishing boat displays certain lights at night to distinguish it from a steam trawler, during the daytime there is nothing to show this distinction, and that, in consequence, trawlers frequently fail to recognise that these boats are steam-liners till they have approached so near as to damage the lines; and whether he will make it a rule for a steam-liner during the day-time to display a black ball on the foremast, or some other distinctive sign.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Yes, Sir; I am aware that under the present regulations there is no provision for a day signal for fishing-boats, but the revised rules prepared by the Rule of the Road Committee, which are now under the consideration of foreign Governments, provide for such a signal. In the event of the adoption of this signal, it will be possible, under the rule providing for it, to meet the point to which the hon. Member refers, if the trade desire it; and the matter shall be borne in mind.

  POULTON-LE-FYLDE BOILER EXPLOSION.
  SIR WILLIAM HOULDSWORTH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can explain why no order for the payment of costs or expenses by the owner was made in the case of a boiler explosion at Poulton-le-Fylde on 27th

  1319
  September last, upon which a preliminary inquiry was held (No. 1260), and the Report of which stated that the owner appeared to have been reckless in his management of the boiler, and that, notwithstanding he had been told by two firms of boiler-makers that it was worn out and unrepairable, he continued to work it for two years and a half under conditions which the Board of Trade engineer pronounced as little short of criminal.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No order for the payment of costs or expenses was made in the case to which my hon. friend refers, because it was not thought necessary to order a formal investigation by the only court that could make such an order. The owner was no doubt reckless, but he was in a very small way of business, and only he and his son attended to the boiler. Fortunately, neither was injured, and, as there was no obscurity as to the cause of the explosion, and it would probably have been difficult to recover any considerable pecuniary penalty, the preliminary inquiry that has been held, and the publication of the facts, meet, I think, the requirements of the case.
  SIR WILLIAM HOULDSWORTH: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that costs were imposed by the preliminary inquiry?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No; I understand that costs are only imposed by a court of formal inquiry.

  METROPOLITAN POOR LAW SCHOOLS.
  MR. FLOWER: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the department has sanctioned the erection of additional buildings at the schools for poor law children at Hanwell, Ashford, Forest Gate, Brentwood, Southall, and other metropolitan poor law schools; and, if so, what sums have been expended on the five schools mentioned respectively; and what is the total sum expended on additional buildings to the existing metropolitan pauper schools (excluding Hornchurch and Banstead) since April, 1896.
  MR. WALTER LONG: Since April, 1896, the following expenditure has been sanctioned in connection with additions to the schools mentioned in the first paragraph of the question:—Brentwood, £5,417; Forest Gate, £984; Southall, £12,180; Hanwell, £5,489. No expenditure has been sanctioned in respect of additions to the Ashford schools since the date referred to. The total expenditure sanctioned since April, 1896, in respect of additions to the metropolitan poor law schools is about
  £48,000; but no expenditure has been sanctioned for the purpose of increasing the number of children to be accommodated in any of the large schools.

  PAUPER CHILDREN'S VILLAGES.
  MR. FLOWER: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has sanctioned the erection of pauper children's villages at Slifford by the Stepney Board of Guardians, at Sidcup by the Greenwich Board, at Bostal Heath by the Woolwich Board, as Shenfield by the Poplar Board, at Shirley by the St. Olave's Board, at Pornteland by the Newcastle Board, at Kenyon Junction by the Salford Board, at Shotley Bridge by the Gateshead Board, at Wavertree by the Liverpool Select Vestry; and, if so, what expenditure the Board has sanctioned on these villages respectively.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The Local Government Board have agreed to the erection of Cottage homes at the nine places mentioned in the question. The total amount of the expenditure sanctioned for this purpose is £449,391. I will furnish my hon. friend with a statement showing the sum sanctioned in respect of each case.

  POOR LAW CHILDREN IN METROPOLITAN WORKHOUSES AND INFIRMARIES.
  MR. TREVELYAN: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state how many poor law children were in the infirmaries and workhouses of the Metropolis at the date when the last Returns were made up.
  MR. WALTER LONG: According to the latest Returns the numbers are as

  1321
  follows:—infirmaries, 1,693; workhouses, 1,448. Of these, however, 532 and 508 respectively are infants under two years of age.

  TUBERCULOSIS REGULATIONS.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the
  President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the regulations as to tuberculosis issued by the Local Government Board in March, 1899; and whether he will make it obligatory that all medical officers of health, part of whose salary is paid by money furnished by Parliament, shall act in accordance with those regulations as to meat from animals which have suffered from localised tuberculosis.
  MR. WALTER LONG: As I stated in my reply to a previous question by the hon. Member, the Local Government Board have not prescribed regulations on the subject referred to. I pointed out then that the Royal Commission on Tuberculosis laid down certain principles which, in their opinion, should be observed in the inspection of tuberculous carcases of cattle, and that the Board in March, 1899, drew the attention of sanitary authorities to the matter, and stated that the authorities should direct those of their officers who were employed as meat inspectors to act in accordance with the principles laid down by the Commission. It does not appear to me that I can take further action on this point at the present time.
  MR. FIELD: Will the right hon. Gentleman take further steps so as to secure that the recommendations of the Commission are acted upon?
  MR. WALTER LONG: I cannot take any further action at present.
  MR. FIELD: Then are the recommendations to remain a dead letter?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  POOR LAW OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board
  1322
  whether he can state the total amount of the contributions paid by the officers under the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896, for the year ended Michaelmas, 1897.
  MR. WALTER LONG: The amount of the contributions paid by officers under the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation Act, 1896, during the year ended at Lady Day, 1898, was £47,465. I cannot give the particulars in respect of the year ended at Michaelmas, 1897.

  GLANDERS OUTBREAK AT GLASGOW.
  MR. WILLIAM M'KILLOP: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture whether Major Tennant, Under Secretary to the Department, who received the deputation from Glasgow recently, on the question of the methods of dealing with outbreaks of glanders, is a qualified veterinary surgeon.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. HANBURY,): The question of glanders was by no means the main subject which the deputation was intended to deal with, and that question was, in fact, only introduced incidentally, after the principal subjects had been discussed. Even then most of the points raised were not such as to require the presence of a veterinary expert. Our principal veterinary officer was, however, consulted by the deputation on any point where expert knowledge was required.

  POST OFFICE PENSION CALCULATIONS.
  MR. DALY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he will state the manner in which the total service and emoluments of a postal official seeking retirement are computed by the Treasury; is any allowance made in respect of the number of hours overtime performed and for the value of the same; and, if not, will he state the reason.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, ): The pension is calculated on all service
  [which fulfils the conditions of the Superannuation Acts, and is based on the permanent salary and emoluments of the office at the date of retirement, or, in some cases, on an average of the preceding three years. Overtime, except in very rare instances, does not fulfil these conditions, and is therefore not counted in the calculation of pension.

  HOLYHEAD AND KINGSTOWN PACKET POSTAL STAFF.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that for eleven years no sorting clerk has been promoted from the Holyhead and Kingstown packet; that some, of the senior men have, refused promotion as affecting their superannuation allowance; that the remainder of the packet staff have during that period been passed over; and that in answer to a paper submitted in 1899, the Controller wrote that the applicants' cases had been considered, and that their supervising officers, who were aware of their capabilities, could not recommend any of them; whether he is aware that in the previous year the senior supervising officer recommended some officers for promotion, notwithstanding which junior men were, promoted, one of whom some time, previously had been removed from the packet for incompetence; and whether, having regard to the stagnation of promotion from the packet service, he can say what steps he proposes to take in this matter.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: It is not the fact that for eleven years past no sorting clerk actually employed on the, Holyhead and Kingstown Packet duty has been promoted. One sorting clerk was so promoted in 1894. Certain of the senior men so employed have expressed their unwillingness to leave the packet duty, in order that their qualifications for promotion might be properly tested, not because their superannuation allowance would thereby be affected, but because their allowance for packet duty is so lucrative that promotion would not carry with it any immediate benefit. In certain promotions
  1324
  made during the past few years a number of officers employed in the packets were passed over because they were, not considered to be the, fittest persons to perform the duties of the posts to be filled. It is the case that in 1898 the senior assistant superintendent on the packet service, recommended that three of the officers working on that duty should be tested in other duties, to see whether they were fit for promotion. But of these three officers one was unwilling to undergo the test, and the qualifications of the other two were not such as to bring them into comparison with the, officers actually promoted. One of the officers promoted in 1899 had been tried on packet duty, but was found unfitted by reason of his age. He was, however, certified to be an exceptionally good officer as regards the general duties of the sorting office, and to be the best qualified for promotion. The claims of men working in the packet service are always considered with those of others, and they have the same chances of promotion.

  POST OFFICE—APPEAL REGULATIONS.
  MR. HAY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, will he explain why a supervisory official at the post office in Gracechurch Street refused to forward a properly worded appeal from a telegraphist to the Controller; and whether the Postmaster General will investigate the circumstances, with a view to granting facilities to the staff to appeal to the higher officials upon questions which may adversely affect them.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The telegraphist in question was cautioned for carelessness, and appealed against the view taken of the case. The appeal was duly put forward and considered by the Controller, who declined to vary the decision. The telegraphist then put in a further appeal, which was returned to him for further reconsideration, as it included matter which was not relevant; but he was told at the time that he might forward it direct, which, however, he did not do. The Postmaster General is satisfied that both the telegraphist in question and the rest of the staff have

  1325
  ample facilities for appealing in any case in which they consider themselves aggrieved.

  POSTAL GRIEVANCES—REFUSAL OF FRESH INQUIRY.
  MR. THOMAS BAYLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether his attention has been called to the discontent existing among postal and telegraph employees with reference to their conditions of service; whether he is aware that at conferences and public meetings resolutions have been passed asking for the appointment of a Committee of Members of Parliament to inquire into the nature of the alleged grievances; and whether the Postmaster General will consider the advisability of recommending that a Committee composed of Members of this House be appointed to investigate and report.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The answer to the first two paragraphs of the hon. Member's question is in the affirmative. It is, however, only five years since the conditions of employment of Post Office servants were exhaustively investigated by a Committee, of which Lord Tweedmouth was chairman. All the recommendations of that Committee were accepted by the Government, and have been carried out at a very heavy cost to the taxpayer, amounting in the present year to upwards of £500,000. No new circumstances have arisen which were not before that Committee; and the Postmaster General is not prepared to recommend another similar inquiry, causing as it would great disturbance of ordinary business, and keeping the staff in a state of unrest which is detrimental to efficiency.

  MALLAIG AND STORNOWAY MAIL STEAMER SERVICE.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he will state the result of the experimental mail steamer service between Mallaig and Stornoway, and will he say when tenders will be invited for the service.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The service has only been in operation since the 1st instant, and there has not been time to form an opinion on its advantages.
  MR. WEIR: How much more time does the hon. Gentleman want?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I am not prepared to fix any time.

  THE POST OFFICE LONDON TELEPHONE SYSTEM.
  MR. BARTLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he can state when the Post Office telephone system in London will be ready to arrange for the reception of subscribers.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: It is hoped that it will be possible to connect the premises of subscribers with some of the principal Exchanges in about five or six months time if no further delay occurs owing to the difficulty of carrying out
  structural alterations in buildings in which other Post Office work is being carried on.

  LAND TAX COMMISSIONERS MEETINGS
  MR. HERBERT LEWIS: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, having regard to the fact that Commissioners of Land Tax are only summoned to meetings of the commissioners by notices published in the official Gazette, and seeing that Land Tax Commissioners cannot know the time and place of meeting without putting themselves to the trouble and expense of buying and reading the official Gazette, instructions will be given to the clerks to the Commissioners of Land Tax to summon the commissioners by notice sent by post to each commissioner, in accordance with the usual practice adopted by other public bodies.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member is presumably referring to the meetings of Land Tax Commissioners convened from time to time by

  1327
  the Board of Inland Revenue, under Section 4 of the Act, 5 and 6 Vict., Cap. 35, for the purpose of appointing commissioners for the general purposes of income tax. The convenience of the commissioners is always consulted by the Board before appointing the time and place of meeting; and when the notice is published in the Gazette a notification of the fact, and a copy of the Gazette, are invariably sent to the clerk to the commissioners, with a request that he will take the necessary steps to ensure a sufficient attendance on the occasion. The Board think that the clerk may be safely left to use his own discretion as to what steps are actually necessary to this end.
  MR. HERBERT LEWIS: Is the hon. Gentleman aware that, as a matter of fact, no notice is sent to the commissioners?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The number of commissioners is very large, and if notice were sent to each one it would cause great delay. If the hon. Member has any suggestion to communicate to me I shall be happy to receive it.

  CUSTOMS ASSISTANTS' GRIEVANCES.
  MR. THOMAS DEWAR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state what steps have been taken to remedy the alleged grievances of the assistants of Customs which were inquired into by the Secretary to the Treasury last year.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I will ask the hon. Member to refer to a reply which I gave on this subject on the 15th ultimo to the hon. Member for South Londonderry.*

  SCOTTISH SHERIFFS' SALARIES.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he is now in a position to state whether a decision has been arrived at in regard to the question of increasing the salaries of sheriffs
  * See preceding volume, page 83.
  1328
  in Scotland; and, if not, can he state when a decision may be expected.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The Board of Treasury is in communication with the Secretary for Scotland on the subject, and is not yet in a position to announce a decision.

  VENTILATION OF PARLIAMENTARY DIVISION LOBBIES.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works, in, view of the satisfactory result obtained by the adoption of a fan in the division lobbies, will he consider the expediency of adopting a similar method for the better ventilation of the ladies gallery.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS,): I will gladly consider this proposition, though I must point out to the hon. Member that there are many difficulties in the way, and that the same conditions do not apply.

  SCHOOL ATTENDANCE REGULATIONS.
  MR. RUTHERFORD: I beg to ask the Vice-President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he can say what is the minimum number of attendances a child has to make before being employed full time in a factory or workshop, and whether the provisions of the Elementary Education Act, 1900, are retrospective regarding an attendance qualification for full time employment.
  THE VICE-PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF EDUCATION (Sir J. GORST,): The Board of Education are advised that, since the 8th August, 1900, no child can obtain full-time exemption from school on an attendance qualification, unless such child has obtained a certificate that it has made 350 attendances, after reaching the age of five years, in not more than two schools during each year for five years, whether consecutive or not.
  MR. RUTHERFORD: Can the right hon. Gentleman answer the second paragraph?
  SIR J. GORST: I do not know what the hon. Member means by the word "retrospective." I have given the effect of it.

  SCOTTISH CONGESTED DISTRICTS BOARD.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will grant the Return relative to the Congested Districts Board (Scotland), notice of which stands on to-day's Paper.†
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): The whole essential information regarding the schemes of migration undertaken by the Congested Districts Board is given in their third annual Report. In these circumstances the Secretary for Scotland cannot see his way to order the preparation of a detailed Return.
  MR. WEIR: In view of the fact that the information is not stated accurately in the Report, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that his reply will necessitate at least a hundred questions being put on the Paper?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  GLASGOW SMALL-POX EPIDEMIC.
  MR. THOMAS BAYLEY: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will furnish a Return showing the amount of money spent by the Corporation of Glasgow in vaccination and re-vaccination from 1st January, 1892, to the present time.
  MR. A. GRAHAM MURRAY: The Return cannot be given for the exact period mentioned, but if the hon. Member
  † The following is the Return referred to:—Congested Districts Board (Scotland),—Return showing the names of the districts and counties in which the Congested Districts Board have endeavoured to secure land for the settlement of the people; the names of the owners of such lands; the cases in which the Board have succeeded; the number of acres applied for and the number secured; the terms and conditions under which the respective lands have been acquired by the Board; the terms and conditions under which they have been apportioned to the people; the acreage and rent of each holding, with the name of the tenant.
  1330
  will move for a Return of the expenditure by the Corporation of Glasgow in connection with vaccination and re-vaccination in each year from 1st June, 1891, to 31st May, 1900, the Secretary for Scotland will grant it as an unopposed Return.

  EAST KERRY MOVING BOG.
  MR. MURPHY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the amount spent in the congested districts in East Kerry for the last three years, and the population and area of these districts; whether he is aware that the moving bog at Gneeveguilla is in the centre of a congested district, and that this bog was the source of a disaster a few years ago by breaking its banks, sweeping away a house and its inmates and a number of live stock, and causing other loss in the locality; whether he has information showing that this disaster was primarily due to the fact that the landlord of the district never made any effort to effect a proper outlet for the surplus water in the bog; and whether, seeing that no effort has been made ever since the disaster to prevent a similar recurrence, the Congested Districts Board will inquire into the matter with the view of doing what may be necessary in the direction indicated.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. WYNDHAM,): It is not possible to state with accuracy the total expenditure of the Board in a congested districts county, since actual expense under a general agricultural scheme cannot well be assessed on a local area. The expenditure on other projects in Kerry amounts to £26,476. The area of the county is 661,040 acres, and its population 86,981. I cannot give the figures for the Parliamentary divisions of the county. I have no information as to the third paragraph; I am, however, making inquiries into the matter.
  MR. FLYNN: Over what period of time has the expenditure been spread?
  MR. WYNDHAM: Since the establishment of the Board.

  BUTTER SUBSTITUTES—DUBLIN PROSECUTION.
  MR. ARCHDALE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, as President of the Department of Agriculture for Ireland, whether his attention has been called to the case, this week, where a company called the Danish and Irish Creamery Company, of Lower Cam den Street, Dublin, were convicted and fined for having sold a 56 lb. box of margarine to a country shopkeeper as butter; and whether that margarine was imported or made in Ireland.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The margarine was manufactured, I am informed, in Ireland.

  LABOURERS' COTTAGES IN ENNIS.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state what is the reason of the delay upon the part of the Local Government Board in sanctioning the scheme of the Ennis Urban Council for the erection of labourers' cottages in Ennis.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The plans and specifications submitted to the Board were so irregular and defective that it was found necessary to return them to the district council. The amended plans have not yet been furnished.

  EDUCATION OF BLIND, DEAF, AND DUMB IN IRELAND.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will introduce legislation to carry out the recommendations of the Royal Commission of 1885 regarding the blind, the deaf, and the dumb, respecting the application of the Compulsory Education Act, which has not been carried into effect in Ireland; and whether he will consider the advisability of introducing direct State aid, upon the Continental system, in preference to the voluntary system which is in force in the three kingdoms.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The Royal Commission reported in 1889. The question of providing State aid towards the
  1332
  education of these afflicted classes deserves, and will receive, consideration but I cannot undertake to introduce legislation during this session.

  AGRICULTURAL AND TECHNICAL EDUCATION IN COUNTY MONAGHAN.
  MR. DALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he is aware that the Department of Agriculture sent a representative months ago to advise with the County Committee of Monaghan how advantage might be taken of the Agricultural and Technical Acts, and that one of the points agreed upon was the appointment of a lecturer to instruct the people of that county in the treatment of experimental plots devoted to agriculture; and whether he can explain why no such lecturer has been provided for county Monaghan, although the spring is now nearly over.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Each of the rural districts in Monaghan has submitted a scheme to the county council containing proposals in regard to agricultural instruction, and as soon as the county council have had time to co-ordinate these schemes and to submit one scheme for the entire county, the department will authorise the County Committee to appoint a suitable instructor.

  ROYAL UNIVERSITY OF IRELAND EXAMINATION CERTIFICATES.
  SIR THOMAS ESMONDE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that it is a rule of the Royal University of Ireland that students who have passed examinations under the University can only receive one certificate of their having done so; and whether he will give directions that when the original certificate has been lost the secretaries shall issue a duplicate if required for any particular purpose.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I am informed that the Senate is, for obvious reasons, unwilling to issue a second certificate unless satisfied that the original has been destroyed. But, when the circumstances

  1333
  warrant it, a letter is issued embodying the substance of the certificate.

  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY—CONSTABLE BLACK'S ORPHANS.
  MR. M'GOVERN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Henry Black, who died some time ago, near Killeshandra, in the county Cavan, served for over thirty years in the Royal Irish Constabulary, and contributed to the Constabulary Force Fund for a period of over forty-six years, in order that his wife and children should be entitled to a gratuity upon his death; that Black's wife died a short time before himself; and that, at the time of Black's death, he left three children, aged nine, eleven, and thirteen years respectively, totally unprovided for; and can he state on what grounds, seeing that these children are destitute, was an application to the Constabulary authorities for a gratuity for them out of the Constabulary Force Fund refused.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The contributions of the deceased constable to the fund were made on the
  express condition (common to all such contributions) that grants would be payable to such children only as were born while he was serving in the force. This being so, the Inspector General is precluded, by the rules governing the fund, from making a grant to the throe children in question.

  CARRICK-ON-SHANNON WATERWORKS.
  MR. TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Local Government Board originally fixed as the area of charge for the Carrick-on-Shannon Waterworks, the Townparks of Carrick-on-Shannon; whether he can state for how many years this arrangement continued, and was it changed as the result of any local inquiry or any local representations; and whether, as the Carrick-on-Shannon No. 1 District Council have always protested against this change, and are still anxious that the original arrangement should stand, the Local Government Board will still oppose the unanimous wishes of the elected
  1334
  representatives of the people in making the expenses a Townpark charge under the Local Government (Ireland) Act.
  1900.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The original Order was made on 28th August, 1888. The extending Order of the
  15th May, 1899, was confirmed by the Public Works Loans Act of that year. The Board are not aware of any exceptional circumstances in the case of Carrick-on-Shannon, which would warrant a departure from the general policy which it has been found necessary to adopt in regard to the chargeability of these sanitary expenses. If, however, any very special circumstances are brought to my notice I will be prepared to consider them.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: Is not this change in chargeability causing great friction between the urban and rural district authorities? Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire into such cases—
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is now putting a general question.

  OMAGH RURAL DISTRICT RATES.
  MR. MURNAGHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that local rates in the Omagh rural district have risen from 2s. 11d. in the pound in the standard year to 4s. 3d. in the pound in the present year—an increase of 35 per cent.; and that the occupier has to pay the whole of the increase; and, in view of the fact that these rates are a burden on the farmers and small shopkeepers, who compose the ratepaying class in Tyrone, will he take care that no further burden be imposed, should the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation (Ireland) Bill be passed into law.
  I beg also to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether be will inform himself, by the aid of a competent actuary, as to the probable effects on local rates in Ireland in case the Poor Law Officers' Superannuation (Ireland) Bill were passed into law; and will he give to the House the

  1335
  information so obtained during the discussion on the Bill, and before the Vote is taken on the Second Reading.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The reasons for the increase in the rates were referred to in my answer of the
  14th March.† I submit that a Committee upstairs will be better able than I could be to examine the actuary whom I am prepared to place at its disposal, and to direct his researches in every pertinent direction. The attitude of the House towards the Bill would be guided, no doubt, by the results of that inquiry, and I may add that I should not support the Third Beading if the risk of any material increase to the rates were revealed.
  MR. TULLY: Did not a similar Act put a quarter of a million on to the English rates?
  [No answer was returned.]

  LOUGH NEAGH FLOODS.
  MR. MURNAGHAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if his attention has been called to a resolution passed by the Guardians of the Lurgan Union, requesting the Government to take steps to have the periodical flooding of lands round Lough Neagh abated; as the loss of crop in this district is great, besides the health of the inhabitants living in flooded areas is seriously endangered; and will he consider the matter with a view to the removal of this danger to the health and property of the district.
  MR. WYNDHAM: This proposal would entail legislation and a large grant of public money. It cannot, accordingly, be entertained.

  MORTALITY AMONG CALVES IN IRELAND.
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Department of Agriculture, before securing the services of a bacteriologist from France, conducted any inquiry into the question of
  † See Debates, Vol. xc., page 1593.
  1336
  the cause of the alleged increased mortality among calves; and whether farmers in the districts affected had been invited to give evidence of the subject; and, if so, whore the Reports of such inquiries can be seen.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Before securing the services of Professeur Nocard the Limerick County Council, at the request of the Department, convened a conference of farmers from Cork, Tipperary, Kerry, Clare, and Limerick, to give evidence as to the extent and cause of disease. The conference was held at Limerick on the 8th December, and an account of the proceedings was published in the local press. No official report has been published, but I have called for a newspaper report, and will send it to the hon. Member when I receive it.
  MR. DILLON: But was any evidence taken at the inquiry?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I understand that the Department felt, after the information they obtained at the conference, that the next proper step was to call in an expert.
  MR. DILLON: Then I take it no inquiry was held?
  MR. WYNDHAM: I gather that is so.

  ARMAGH MAGISTRACY.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he can state the number of Roman Catholic and of non-Catholic magistrates in the petty sessions districts of Tynan and Middletown, county Armagh; the numbers, ranks, and religious denomination of the members of the Constabulary in the above districts; and what proportion Roman Catholics bear to the rest of the population in the above districts.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The number of justices attending these two petty sessions is seven, all of whom are Protestants, There are ten policemen in the districts; one sergeant and four constables are

  1337
  Roman Catholics, and one sergeant and four constables Protestants. I have no official information on the last query.

  STEAM TRAWLING (IRELAND) BILL.
  MR. POWER: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state when he proposes to take the Second Reading of the Bill introduced by him dealing with the question of steam-trawling off the Irish coasts; and if he will put it down at a time when an adequate discussion can be taken.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I understand that the First Lord is about to make a statement in reference to future business, and I would ask the hon. Member to await that statement.

  IRISH RAILWAYS—STATE PURCHASE— GERMAN STATE RAILWAYS.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the German State railways realised a profit of £23,200,000 last year; and whether he will consider what modifications can be introduced respecting the existing railway system of Ireland, with a view to decrease taxation and increase facilities for goods and passengers.
  MR. WYNDHAM: I have no information as to the net receipts of the German State railways later than for the year ending 31st March, 1899. In that year the net receipts amounted to £36,230,000.

  OMAGH QUARTER SESSIONS—CASE OF GEORGE FEATHERS.
  MR. HEMPHILL: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney General for Ireland whether his attention has been called to the case of George Feathers, a labourer, who was tried at the last October quarter sessions at Omagh, when the jury disagreed and the accused was allowed to stand out on bail until the spring assizes of this year, when he was again placed on his trial before Lord Justice Holmes and the jury again disagreed, on which occasion his Lordship is reported to have suggested that it was not a case for
  1338
  a further trial, and he was again let out on bail; and whether, as the accused is poor and has already incurred the expense of two trials, having been defended by professional gentlemen on both occasions, he would be pleased to direct a nolle prosequi to be entered.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,): My right hon. friend is under a misconception. Lord Justice Holmes's remarks applied to a second trial at the same assizes. I cannot at this period give the undertaking asked for, but if on further examination I consider the case one in which a jury might fairly disagree the Crown will not proceed further.

  DUBLIN POST OFFICE—TELEPHONE OPERATORS' WAGE GRIEVANCES.
  MR. NANNETTI: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he is aware that the telephone operators who were transferred as switching operators from the National Telephone Company, Dublin, to the post office in May, 1897, at the wages of 12s. and 11s. per week, have received but two increments since that time—namely, 1s. per week in 1897 and 1s. per week in 1898; and that, in addition to the work of switching, they have had since their transfer to perform telegraph and other duties; and, seeing that they have been continually informed that their application for increase of wages is under consideration, whether a decision will soon be arrived at.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Yes, Sir; the circumstances are well known to the Postmaster General. The general question of the pay of telephone operators is still under consideration, but it is hoped that a decision may be arrived at shortly.
  MR. NANNETTI: Cannot this case be dealt with at once?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Individual cases will be dealt with as soon as the general scheme has been decided upon.
  MR. NANNETTI: Is it not a fact that although these young ladies, since their transfer to the post office, have had extra work put upon them, their wages have not been increased? I will put another question down about this.

  ARMAGH POSTAL OFFICIALS.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he can state the numbers, ranks, religious denominations, and salaries of the post office officials in the districts of Tynan and Middletown, county Armagh, and also the proportion which Roman Catholics bear to the remainder of the population in these districts.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: The Postmaster General will ascertain and furnish the hon. Member with the numbers, ranks, and salaries of the post office officials in question. He does not, however, know anything as to the number of Roman Catholics in the districts named, and cannot undertake to make any inquiry on the subject.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: Am I right in saying there is not a single Roman Catholic among the officials?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: Neither I nor the Postmaster General have any knowledge of the religious belief of any of the officials.
  MR. JOHN CAMPBELL: But surely it would be possible to ascertain?
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: We do not think it would be proper to do so.

  ROYAL COMMISSION ON IRISH UNIVERSITIES.
  MR. WILLIAM JOHNSTON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he has received a resolution passed by the Belfast Methodist Council, representing all the Methodist churches of Belfast, expressing the opinion of the council concerning the constitution of the proposed Royal Commission on the university question;
  1340
  whether the Government will favourably consider the suggestion that the Commission shall be composed of skilled educationalists who have not publicly taken part in supporting or opposing the establishment of a State-aided denominational university for Ireland; and whether care will be taken that no person connected with any educational institution in Ireland will be appointed on the Royal Commission.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): Yes, Sir; I have received the resolution referred to, but I cannot at the present time make any statement as to the constitution of the Committee.

  LONDON LOCAL GOVERNMENT— EQUALISATION OF RATES.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, seeing that at the time of the passage of the London Government Bill he gave a pledge that nothing would be done to alter the equalisation of rates throughout the metropolis, and seeing that within the boroughs of Woolwich, Finsbury, and Southwark the incidence of the rates is now altered, he will take such steps as will cause these boroughs to act up to the pledge given.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: A clause was inserted for the purpose of making it clear that nothing in the Act would affect the equalisation of rates. I am not quite sure what is the grievance referred to by the hon. Gentleman, but if he will communicate with the President of the Local Governemnt Board we may be able to satisfy him.

  ROAD LABOUR IN IRELAND.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will state what opportunities there are for Members of the House to discuss the Provisional Order legalising the system of direct labour on the roads in Ireland before it becomes law, if found unsatisfactory.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: A Provisional Order, before it comes into force, must

  1341
  be in the shape of a Bill which can be discussed on the Second Reading in Committee on the Report stage (if any), and on the Third Reading.

  CROFTERS' ACT (1886) AMENDMENT.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, in view of the general desire in the Highland crofting counties for the extension of the Crofters' Act, 1886, to leaseholders under £30, will he state whether the Government propose to introduce legislation on the subject this session.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, Sir, we have no such intention.
  MR. WEIR: The right hon. Gentleman gave the same answer six years ago.

  SCOTTISH COURT.
  MR. THOMAS DEWAR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can inform the House whether His Majesty the King proposes at an early date to hold a Court in the Scottish Capital.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: We have had no intimation of any such intention.

  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  LORD HUGH CECIL: I beg to ask you, Mr. Speaker, if the Instruction standing in my name on the Marriage with a Deceased Wife's Sister Bill is in order?
  MR. SPEAKER: I must respectfully decline to answer the question until the proper time arrives.

  LOCAL TAXATION COMMISSION REPORT.
  MR. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if, having regard to the fact that the Royal Commission on Local Taxation was appointed five years ago, and that the Agricultural Rates Act is to be renewed this year, he will suggest to the Commission the desirability of an early Report, so that it may be in the
  1342
  hands of Members before the debate on the renewal of the Rating Bill.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I understand that the Commission are pressing on with the work, but as they are not a subordinate branch of the Government we have no power of control over their proceedings in any way.
  SIR HENRY FOWLER: Is it not the case that the Commissioners closed the taking of evidence in November, 1899, and that this Report was promised before any proposal should be made for the renewal of the Agricultural Rating Act?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am not aware of that promise.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNER: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he will give the House some idea as to when the new Army proposals are to be discussed.
  MAJOR RASCH: May I at the same time ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he can now without inconvenience state approximately the date of the debate on the resolution of the Secretary of State for War.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am very reluctant to give what is called an approximate statement as to the business of the House, for I find that forecasts are apt to be interpreted as special pledges; and I hope that on the present occasion nothing that I say will be taken as a pledge. Our present view is this—that we should finish the proceedings on the Budget resolution and read the Budget Bill a first time. [Cries of "When?"] As soon as we can. Unfortunately it does not rest with me to settle the length of the debate. We propose that the next business should be the Civil List resolution and the reading of the Civil List Bill a first time; that we then proceed with the Army resolution, and then go to the Second Reading of the Finance Bill. I ought to add that, of course, nothing I have said, it must be understood, will preclude us from using any part of a

  1343
  broken day for other Government business.

  SUSPENSION OF THE TWELVE O'CLOCK RULE.
  MR. WINSTON CHURCHILL: Does the First Lord, in view of the motion he has on the Paper for the suspension of the Twelve o'Clock Rule, intend to have a late sitting to-night?
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: No, Sir. My object in putting the resolution down is in order to prevent the automatic action of the rule preventing the termination
  of a debate which may be nearly concluded at the hour of midnight.

SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE (EXEMPTION FROM THE STANDING ORDER).
Motion made, and Question put, "That the proceedings of the Committee of Ways and Means, if the Committee be sitting at Twelve o'clock this night, be not interrupted under the Standing Order, Sittings of the House."—(Mr. A. J. Belfour.)
The House divided:—Ayes, 245 Noes, 177. (Division List No. 144).

AYES.

Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex F.

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Helder, Augustus

Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

Henderson, Alexander

Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

Allsopp, Hon. George

Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

Hickman, Sir Alfred

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Cranborne, Viscount

Higginbottom, S. W.

Arkwright, John Stanhope

Cripps, Charles Alfred

Hoare, Edw. B. (Hampstead)

Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Hobhouse, Henry (Somerset, E.

Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

Dalkeith, Earl of

Hope, J F. (Sheffield, Brightside

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Dalrymple, Sir Charles

Horner, Frederick William

Austin, Sir John

Denny, Colonel

Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P

Howard, John (Kent, Faversh.

Bain, Colonel James Robert

Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

Howard, J. (Midd., Tottenham)

Baird, John George Alexander

Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

Hozier, Hon. James Henry C.

Baldwin, Alfred

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Hudson, George Bickersteth

Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

Douglas, lit. Hon. A. Akers-

Hutton, John (Yorks., N. R.)

Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

Doxford, Sir William T.

Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

Banbury, Frederick George

Duke, Henry Edward

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Bartley, George C. T.

Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

Dyke, lit. Hon. Sir Wm. H.

Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir. M H (Bristol)

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

Keswick, William

Bigwood, James

Faber, George Denison

Kimber, Henry

Bill, Charles

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Knowles, Lees

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc.

Law, Andrew Bonar

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Lawrence, William E.

Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

Fisher, William Hayes

Lawson, John Grant

Brassey, Albert

FitzGerald, Sir Robt. Penrose-

Lee, Arthur H (Hants, Fareham

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Flannery, Sir Fortescue

Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.

Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

Flower, Ernest

Llewellyn, Evan Henry

Brown, Alexander H. (Shropsh.

Forster, Henry William

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Brymer, William Ernest

Garfit, William

Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

Bull, William James

Gibbs, Hn A G H. (City of London

Long, Rt Hn. Walter (Bristol, S.

Bullard, Sir Harry

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

Lonsdale, John Brownlee

Butcher, John George

Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

Campbell, Rt. Hn. J A (Glasgow

Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Carlile, William Walter

Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'ml'ts

Lucas, Col. F. (Lowestoft)

Carson, lit. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

Macartney, Rt Hn W. G. Ellison

Cautley, Henry Strother

Goulding, Edward Alfred

MacIver, David (Liverpool)

Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

M'Arthur, Chas. (Liverpool)

Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'y

M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.

Cayzer, Sir Charles William

Gretton, John

M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.

Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

Greville, Hon. Ronald

M'Killop, Jas. (Stirlingshire)

Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

Groves, James Grimble

Malcolm, Ian

Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J (Birm.

Gunter, Colonel

Maple, Sir John Blundell

Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc'r

Hain, Edward

Martin, Richard Biddulph

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Hall, Edward Marshall

Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

Chapman, Edward

Hambro, Charles Erie

Melville, Beresford Valentine

Charrington, Spencer

Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Middx

Middlemore, John Throgm'rt'n

Churchill, Winston Spencer

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robt. W.

Milton, Viscount

Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

Harris, Frederick Leverton

Mitchell, William

Coddington, Sir William

Hay, Hon. Claude George

Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

Cohen, Benjamin Louis

Heaton, John Henniker

Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

Morgan, David J (Walthamst'w

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Valentia, Viscount

Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F

Ropner, Colonel Robert

Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H (Sheffi'd

Morrison, James Archibald

Round, James

Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

Royds, Clemant Molyneux

Wanklyn, James Leslie

Mount, William Arthur

Russell, T. W.

Warde, Colonel C. E.

Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

Rutherford, John

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

Welby, Lt. Col. A. C. E. (Taunt'n

Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.)

Myers, William Henry

Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

Wharton, Rt. Hn. John Lloyd

Nicholson, William Graham

Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

Whiteley, H (Asht'n-und-Lyne

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

Whitmore, Charles Algernon

Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

Sharpe, William Edward T.

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew

Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)

Peel, Hn. Wm Robert Wellesley

Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Pemberton, John S. G.

Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, E.)

Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

Penn, John

Smith, H. C. (N'rth'b., Tyneside

Wodehouse, Rt Hn. E. R. (Bath)

Percy, Earl

Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

Pierpoint, Robert

Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Pilkington, Richard

Spear, John Ward

Wrightson, Sir Thomas

Plummer, Walter R.

Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

Wylie, Alexander

Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

Wyndham, Rt. Hn. George

Purvis, Robert

Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

Stone, Sir Benjamin

Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

Rankin, Sir James

Stroyan, John

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Younger, William

Ratcliffe, R. F.

Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

Remnant, James Farquharson

Talbot, Rt Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Univ.

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

Rentoul, James Alexander

Thornton, Percy M.

Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

Renwick, George

Tomlinson, Wm. E. Murray

Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge

Tritton, Charles Ernest

NOES.

Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

Dillon, John

Joyce, Michael

Abraham, William (Rhondda)

Doogan, P. C.

Kearley, Hudson E

Allan, William (Gateshead)

Duffy, Wm. J.

Kennedy, Patrick James

Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud)

Duncan, J. Hastings

Kinloch, Sir John George Smyth

Ambrose, Robert

Dunn, Sir William

Kitson, Sir James

Ashton, Thomas Gair

Edwards, Frank

Lambert, George

Ascquith, Rt Hn. Herbert Henry

Emmott, Alfred

Langley, Batty

Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

Esmonde, Sir Thomas

Layland-Barratt, Francis

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

Leamy, Edmund

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

Long, Sir John

Bell, Richard

Farquharson, Dr. Robert

Lewis, John Herbert

Black, Alexander William

Farrell, James Patrick

Lloyd-George, David

Blake, Edward

Fenwick, Charles

Lough, Thomas

Boland, John

Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

Lundon, W.

Bolton, Thomas Dolling

Flavin, Michael Joseph

MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

Brigg, John

Flynn, James Christopher

MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

Broadhurst, Henry

Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

M'Arthur, Wm. (Cornwall)

Burke, E. Haviland-

Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

M'Crae, George

Burt, Thomas

Gilhooly, James

M'Dermott, Patrick

Buxton, Sydney Charles

Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

M'Kenna, Reginald

Caldwell, James

Goddard, Daniel Ford

M'Laren, Charles Benjamin

Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

Mansfield, Horace Kendall

Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

Haldane, Richard Burdon

Markham, Arthur Basil

Causton, Richard Knight

Hammond, John

Mather, William

Cawley, Frederick

Harmsworth, R. Leicester

Minch, Matthew

Cogan, Denis J.

Harwood, George

Mooney, John J.

Colville, John

Hayden, John Patrick

Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

Condon, Thomas Joseph

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Chas. Seale-

Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose

Craig, Robert Hunter

Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

Crean, Eugene

Helme, Norval Watson

Moss, Samuel

Cremer, William Randal

Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

Moulton, John Fletcher

Crombie, John William

Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

Murnaghan, George

Cullinan, J.

Holland, William Henry

Murphy, J.

Daly, James

Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

Nannetti, Joseph P.

Dalziel, James Henry

Horniman, Frederick John

Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

Jacoby, James Alfred

Norman, Henry

Delany, William

Joicey, Sir James

Norton, Capt. Cecil William

Dewar, John A. (Invernes-sh.)

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

Nussey, Thomas Willans

Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

Jordan, Jeremiah

O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

1346

1347

O'Brien, K. (Tipperary, Mid)

Redmond, William (Clare)

Tomkinson, James

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

Rickett, J. Compton

Tully, Jasper

O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

Rigg, Richard

Ure, Alexander

O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

Robson, William Snowdon

Wallace, Robert

O'Dowd, John

Roche, John

Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

Schwann, Charles E.

Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

O'Mara, James

Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire

Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Weir, James Galloway

Palmer, George Wm. (Reading

Soares, Ernest J.

White, George (Norfolk)

Partington, Oswald

Spencer, Rt Hn. C. R. (Northnts.

White, Patrick (Meath, North)

Pease, Sir Joseph W. (Durham)

Strachey, Edward

Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

Philipps, John Wynford

Sullivan, Donal

Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

Power, Patrick Joseph

Taylor, Theodore Cooke

Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

Price, Robert John

Tennant, Harold John

Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

Priestley, Arthur

Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

Rea, Russell

Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.

Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

Reckitt, Harold James

Thomas, Dav. Alfred (Merthyr

TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

Reddy, M.

Thomas, J. A. (Glam., Gower)

Mr. Charming and Mr. Caine.

Redmond, John E. (Waterford

Thompson, E. C (Monaghan, N.

ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.
[THIRD READING.]
Order for Third Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
MR. DILLON: I desire, if I am in order, to move the following Amendment: "That this House declines to read the Army (Annual) Bill a third time, until it has received an assurance that the practice of looting while on active service will be more strictly dealt with."
MR. SPEAKER: That will not be in order. It does not arise out of the Army (Annual) Bill, as the actual conduct of troops in war is not a matter that can be discussed on that Bill.
MR. DILLON: Of course, I bow to your ruling, Mr. Speaker, but I should like to ask, on a point of order, whether I should be out of order in debating the subject which I desire to raise on the Third Reading of this Bill. I wish to know whether I would not be in order in referring to the administration of that part of the Army (Annual) Bill which deals with this offence of looting.
MR. SPEAKER: That is obviously an Amendment with the view of discussing the conduct of troops in looting. That would be out of order. It is quite obvious that it would be out of order to introduce that subject now.
MR. DILLON: Yes, Sir, I accepted your ruling with regard to the Amendment. What I propose to ask now is whether I should not be in order in examining the Army Bill as to whether it has been effectual in dealing with the question of looting. It appears to me that inasmuch as the Army (Annual) Bill is the only machinery by which the Army is kept together, and is the Bill under which all discipline is maintained, I should be in order in discussing whether the Bill in its present shape has been successful in dealing with this most important particular.
MR. SPEAKER: That is practically the same question over again. The hon. Member may point out that the Army (Annual) Bill should be differently worded, but he cannot proceed to discuss the action of the troops or of the administration. He may point out particular clauses to which he takes objection.
MR. CALDWELLthought this was the time to bring before the Government the necessity for the consolidation of the Army Acts. In 1879 there was the Discipline Act, which was amended in the two following years, and in 1881 a Liberal Government brought in a Consolidation Act for the purpose of consolidating the Amendments. Since then there had been Amendments to the Army Act of 1881 every year, and anyone wanting to know the state of the law at the present moment with regard to the Army had not only to take up the Act of 1881, but to go through every Army (Annual) Act since then,

1349
before the law could be possibly understood. It was quite true there was power given to reprint the Act with Amendments, but the Act was not reprinted and put upon the Statute-book by Parliament. It was reprinted, he supposed, by the officials of the War Office. He was not astonished that the hon. Member for West Waterford the other evening was not able to find a particular section to which the Secretary of State for War was referring in the Army Act of 1881, although the words were to be found in the Act as reprinted. The Government of course reprinted the Act in the manual for the Army, and, so far as the Army were concerned, they had all they wanted; but there were other people in the country who were interested in the Army Act besides officers. There were the general public and Members of this House. How did the matter stand at present? The last reprint placed in the library only brought the law down to 1893, and anyone wanting to know the existing state of the law must either obtain the manual prepared by the War Office or must follow the statutes from 1893 to the present. He had brought this matter forward before, and had received admissions that the time had come for consolidation, and every year increased that necessity. Surely after an Act of Parliament had been in operation for twenty years, in every one of which it had been amended, it was time to have a Consolidation Act. What was the difficulty? The Army Act of 1881 consisted of 193 clauses and five schedules. How long did it take to pass the House of Commons in 1881? There were only two short speeches on the Second Reading, the Bill was considered in Committee and reported without amendment, and the Third Reading was passed on the same day. In the House of Lords it passed through all its stages in one day. There had been many innovations since the new procedure; there had been Workshops Acts consolidation and Public Health Acts consolidation, and wherever there was any amended Bill, as in the case of the Army Bill, the same precedent could be followed as in 1881. The Bill could be amended and produced in the House with its Amendments, and then it could be given out to a draughtsman who would carry out the effect of the law;
1350
and where there was no alteration in the law upon the Statute-book, a Bill could be passed through the House without trouble. It was a fallacy to suppose that, because there was a subsequent Act changing the words of a section, it was therefore a complete Act of Parliament. It was nothing of the kind, because everybody knew perfectly well that it was almost impossible to make any alteration in an Act of Parliament without affecting other matters more or less remote from the subject referred to. That was what was discovered in 1881, when it was found necessary, by the addition of some verbal alterations, to give effect to certain clauses which had been altered. It was not right that a matter affecting such an important subject as the Army Bill, where there were other interests besides the officers' to be considered, that the House should be dependent upon the official copy of the Act which was put into the library. If it were gone over by a draughtsman there would be found to be many slight alterations necessary, which, however, would not involve any discussion in the House. As it was, they had now on the Paper a makeshift amending Bill, which would have to be followed by a Consolidation Bill which would pass the House if brought forward without a single observation being made upon it. He was not regarding the present Bill from the point of view of amending it, but he thought the time had arrived when a Consolidation Act should be brought in, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, who had shown great courage in the matter of Army reform, would see his way to commence his reforms by a reform of the Army Act.
MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid he was sorry he could not support the hon. Member for Mid Lanark to the extent of asking for a Consolidation Act in the present year. He did not think it would be possible to obtain it before next year. He was sorry that something more had not been done in regard to holding courts-martial upon officers who had been unfortunate, and had had to surrender, or who had lost their regiments through accident, as was done in the

1351
Navy in the case of an officer who had lost his ship. It was a great pity some system was not projected for the purpose. He had risen to inquire what had been the precise result of the discussions that had taken place in reference to the courts of inquiry with regard to the alterations to be made this year and the new additions proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War. He did not understand how they would affect all courts of inquiry, or whether some of the courts of inquiry had been practically illegal, or whether they were justified in giving
"findings" as well as the mere report of evidence. He would like to hear the right hon. Gentleman upon those points.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,)said he certainly was not disposed, and could hardly be expected, to take up
time in rediscussing the subject
of courts of inquiry for the benefit of the hon. Member, who did not happen to be present in the small hours of Tuesday morning. As regards the question raised by the hon. Member for Mid Lanark, the speech of the hon. Gentleman was almost as hardy an annual as the Army Bill itself, but he did not think there was any valid grievance. At the instance of the right hon. Member for Stirling the Act was reprinted in 1893, and a copy of that reprint was in the library, but he was prepared to give a pledge that it should be reprinted again with any Amendments which had been made in the interval. Unless there were any serious changes made in the Army Act he could not pledge the Government to bring in a Consolidation Bill.
Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes, 325; Noes, 67. (Division List No. 145.)

WAYS AND MEANS.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]

WAYS AND MEANS.

  TEA.
  1. Motion made, and question proposed, "That the Customs duty now charged on tea shall continue to be charged until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and two, that is to say, Tea the pound 6d."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  SIR SEYMOUR KINGsaid he desired to say a few words with reference to the duty and its incidence. He was speaking on behalf of an industry in which thirty millions of British money wore invested, which had caused jungles to be turned into smiling tea-gardens, and which had given employment to hundreds of thousands of persons. The industry was, by the admission of the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, doing extremely badly. There were forty-five companies registered in London, with a capital of £9,000,000, or nearly one-third of the total amount invested in the tea trade. In 1897 he found that capital was worth £12,000,000, to-day it was worth less than £7,500,000. Seventy per cent. of the companies engaged in the tea industry were paying no dividend. The result was that large numbers of these concerns had to go to the wall, and that there was a great loss of employment among the coolies.
  1356
  The Committee would doubtless be told that the present state of the industry was largely due to over-production. There had undoubtedly been a too rapid development of tea-gardens, but in imposing so high a tax upon tea the Government was rather straining its prerogative, and using its giant strength recklessly like a giant. If India were a self-governing colony it would be impossible to impose such taxation, as she would very soon retaliate on cotton or steel goods. No one apparently would stand up for India. There was in the House an Indian Minister, who admirably governed that Empire, but he was perhaps too much a British Minister to stand up for purely Indian interests. That the planters had been quite ready to do their duty by the Empire would be acknowledged when the Committee remembered the brilliant services rendered in South Africa by Lumsden's Horse, a body of men raised and paid for by the planters. They did not mind bearing their share, but they did object to paying the whole of the tax, as they were practically doing. The greater proportion, if not the whole, of the twopence had fallen on the producer, as the retailer was at present selling tea at nearly the same price as before the duty was imposed. The duty was out of all proportion to the cost price of article taxed, and had been most unfairly levied on tea, as compared with similar drinks, such as cocoa and coffee. Cocoa, with a wholesale price of 6d., was taxed only 1½d., and coffee, with a wholesale price of 8d., also paid 1½d.; but tea, with an average wholesale price of 6d., was taxed at 6d., or 100 per

  1357
  cent. In 1881 the average price of tea was 1s. 5d., with a duty of 6d., or 35 per cent. of the cost price. In 1891 the average cost was
  7½d., with a duty of 4d., or 38 per cent. In 1901 the average price was 7d., and, for the last two months, 6d., with a duty of 6d., or 100 per cent. Millions of pounds of tea were sold at 3d., 3½d., and 4d. per pound, so that the duty on that was no less than 150 per cent. All Members professed great devotion to temperance, but that devotion was hardly proved by putting a tax of 100 per cent. on the chief temperance drink. While quite agreeing that the large class of the community who did not pay income tax, or consume alcohol, or smoke tobacco, should contribute towards the war expenses, he could not understand why tea alone should bear the burden. Why should coffee and cocoa, of which there was a largely increasing consumption, be exempted from the increase of taxation? In 1899 the value of the Indian tea imported was
  £4,467,000, and the duty paid £2,270,000, or, roughly, 50 per cent. In 1901, the value of the crop, although a much larger one, was only £4,025,000, or £450,000 less, and yet the duty charged was £3,450,000. Tea, which was one of the few luxuries of the labouring classes, bore as heavy a burden of taxation as 100 per cent., while wine was taxed only to the extent of 30 per cent. Heavy duties, however, defeated their own object. In America the imposition of a tea duty of 10 cents, or 5d., caused a fall in the consumption from 113,000,000 pounds to 70,000,000 pounds. But in Australia, where the duty ranged from 1d. to 3d. per pound, the consumption per head was
  7½ pounds, or 25 per cent. more than in this country. It could not be suggested that 150 per cent. was a fair duty to be put upon an article of such large and universal consumption. The only real satisfaction the tea planters had was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not be able to extract from their pockets any income tax. It was cold comfort, but, at any rate, the result of the duty had been to leave them without any profits to pay income tax upon. It was utterly unscientific finance to tax an article out of existence, but that was the fate threatening the tea industry. He, however, admitted the difficulty of making
  1358
  a reduction, at any rate, this year, and he was not going to move one; but he could not let the imposition of the tax again this year pass without protest. As President of the Indian Tea Association in London, he represented an absolutely united industry, with £30,000,000 behind it, and he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would at the earliest possible moment once more reduce the tea duty to its proper level of 40 per
  cent.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISmoved the
  omission of the words "first day of August," in order to insert "sixth day of March." The resolution passed in 1899 provided that a duty of 4d. should be charged from 1st August, 1899, until 1st August, 1900. In 1900, by the corresponding resolution, the duty was raised to 6d., and made payable from 6th March, 1900, until 1st August, 1901, the effect being that the increased duty was levied for not twelve, but seventeen months. The object of the proposed Amendment was to make the duty in its present form cease on 6th March next. He believed the House would wish to have an opportunity of considering an alteration of the tea duty at the earliest possible moment, and that was the reason for the Amendment. He agreed with much that had been said by the hon. Member for Central Hull. The tax upon tea was unfair upon both producer and consumer. The case of the producer was very serious in India and Ceylon. Several years ago, when he visited Ceylon, the coffee plantations had been practically ruined, and it was the exception to find a coffee planter who had not been or was not bankrupt. Bankruptcy was so common in the Island that it was considered to be no disgrace, and people joked and gossipped about their various positions in the bankruptcy court as though it was the most natural thing imaginable to be in that position. That was about seventeen years ago, and since then a new industry—the tea industry—had been started, and everyone with the interest of the Island at heart had observed with delight how that industry had grown and flourished. There was no portion of the Empire which gave less trouble than Ceylon; in fact, when he was there the whole

  1359
  Island was held by a brass band. He therefore ventured to put in a plea for the Island, and also on behalf of the consumer, who undoubtedly paid a very large share of the tax, whatever might be the indirect effect upon the planter. With regard to India, that was a country which had over and over again been treated very shabbily in regard to a great many matters, such for instance as the Soudan Expedition. A large number of Members on the Government side of the House considered that, with regard to the Soudan Expedition, India was treated very shabbily indeed by this country, and only their loyalty to the Government prevented their going into the Lobby against the proposal when the question was raised by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose. In the interests of the consumer at home, and also having regard to the great dependency of India and Ceylon, he hoped that, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not willing to give way this year, some alteration would be made in the tax as early as possible next year, and with that object in view he moved the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 2, to leave out the words 'first day of August, and insert the words 'sixth day of March.'"—(Mr. Herbert Lewis.)
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,)said that as an Amendment had been moved, he must confine himself to the question of date. The hon. Member began by stating that in 1899, August was named as the date of the expiring of the tax. The reason for that was obvious. It was necessary to allow sufficient time after the ordinary period of the year at which the Budget was introduced to prevent the clearing of lea in the expectation of an alteration in the duty. It was absolutely necessary, in the interests of the revenue, with regard to such articles as tea, which could be cleared in anticipation of an increased duty, or held hack in anticipation of a decreased duly, that a considerable number of months should be named beyond the date at which the duty might be altered by the Budget of the year,
  1360
  so as to avoid that sort of thing. Last year, as the hon. Member had said, March 6th was adopted, but that was because, for obvious reasons, the Budget was introduced at a very early date. It was not likely that the Budget would again be brought in so early in the year, and therefore he must adhere to the month of August.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISreadily responded to the appeal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The arguments adduced by the right hon. Gentleman in favour of adhering to the date named in the resolution were such that could hardly be controverted, and he therefore begged leave to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. BROADHURSTreminded the Committee that in the Budget debate last year he complained of the inequality and injustice of the system of levying the tax on tea, and suggested that if possible tea should be taxed on value instead of on weight. The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that there was some cause for complaint, and promised to investigate the matter between then and the next Budget night, and see if anything could be done in the matter. He now desired to ask whether the necessary inquiries had been made as to the feasibility of the suggestion. The point was very obvious. The labourer with 12s. a week paid just as much duty per pound on the commonest tea as the rich man with an income of £10,000 a year paid per pound on the best tea, and that was surely most unfair. If the right hon. Gentleman had been too busy during the past year to pay any attention to the matter, would he renew his pledge to consider it? The hon. Member also desired to join in the protest against the tax altogether. While only £1,250,000 was raised on wine, consumed by the rich, nearly £4,000,000 was raised on tea, which was an article consumed by the poor. The question should certainly be taken seriously in hand, and the skill of finance applied to relieve the burden from the poor, and to place it more on the shoulders of the rich.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND, In moving to
  reduce the tea duty from

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  6d. to 4d. per lb., said that, hard as was the case of India, that of Ireland in regard to the tea duty was harder. From time to time the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that he would never consent to make any difference in matters of taxation between Ireland and Great Britain, but, unless he was determined rigidly to adhere to that decision, there could not be a better case for making such a difference between the two countries than that to be found in the matter of the tax upon tea. An enormous amount was paid by way of this tax in Ireland, and the fact that tea was consumed there to a much greater extent than in England proved at once that the tax fell with greater severity upon the Irish than upon the English taxpayers.
  The latest figures obtainable showed that, whereas the average consumption of tea in Great Britain was 5½ lbs. per head of the population, in Ireland it was 6½ lbs. One might almost say, therefore, that tea was the national drink of Ireland. Would-be facetious Members sometimes pointed out that the Irish people drank too much alcohol, but anybody who studied the figures would find that the percentage of alcohol consumed in Ireland was much less than the percentage in England or Scotland. But if it was desirable to promote the cause of temperance the lust thing that should be done was to make tea dearer. Tea was an article of diet which was necessary for the people, and from the temperance point of view he believed that, if Parliament continued to make tea dearer, the Irish consumer, who was used to taking tea with his principal meals, would in all probability in the end be driven to take alcoholic drinks instead. Before 1817 the tax upon tea in Great Britain was four or five times as much as in Ireland, but then the tax was equalised in the two countries, and the Irish people had suffered accordingly ever since. According to the figures of the hon. Member for West Islington, the taxation of Ireland had grown from £7,500,000, in 1893, to
  £8,600,000, in 1900, a rise of £1,100,000, but in the same way that taxation had gone up regularly year by year the population had regularly gone down, so that while in 1893 the population stood at 4,600,000 it was now 4,500,000, a decrease of 100,000. The census returns
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  would doubtless prove that, as the population had enormously decreased, the taxation per head had increased. That was a most extraordinary state of affairs, and one peculiar to Ireland. Certainly, it was one which should cause the Chancellor of the Exchequer to inquire whether it was
  not possible in some way so to treat Ireland in the matter of taxation that this extraordinary state of affairs should be discontinued. Last year the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he proposed to put an extra 2d. on tea, justified it by saying that the prosperity of Ireland was largely increasing, and he referred to various matters in order to prove that statement, He mentioned savings banks deposits, railway rates, and various other things, to show that the Irish people were prosperous and well able to bear the burden of taxation. The right hon. Gentleman then pointed out in a triumphant way that emigration was on the decrease, and he stated that in 1898 the number of people who emigrated from Ireland was
  32,000, or 10,000 less than the year before. He had looked into the figures, and he found that, whereas 23,000 people emigrated in 1898, in 1899 the total was 42,000, and in 1900 no less than 48,000 people left Ireland. It would be seen, therefore, that there had been, since the year referred to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, not a decrease but an increase in the number of people who had year by year left the country. That being so, the prosperity spoken of could not be a reality, because it was impossible for this flow of emigration to gather volume and become greater every year if there existed in Ireland amongst the masses of the people the opportunity of living in comfort and prosperity at home in their own country.
  Under those circumstances he proposed that the tax should be left as it was before. In the year 1898–99 £564,000 was paid in taxation upon tea by Ireland. He found that in the year 1899–90 no less than £648,000 was paid by way of taxation in Ireland on tea. What the figures for last year were they were quite in ignorance of, and he thought it was a most inconvenient and improper thing that when they were called upon each year at this period to consider fresh taxation they had not got at their disposal the figures in

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  regard to what these taxes had realised during the past year. He was aware that there were no fresh proposals in reference to the tax on tea this year, but he refused to consent this year to renew the 50 per cent. tax which was put upon tea last year, until he knew what the tax realised last year in Ireland. Before they were asked to consent to put 6d. upon tea they ought, in common fairness and honesty, to be told by the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much this additional tax yielded in Ireland last year. He did not know when the figures in reference to the amount realised during the financial year ending March last would be given, but as far as he understood the matter those figures never were available until August, when the session was almost over, and when it was impossible to make use of them. All they were able to do at present was to make some sort of estimate. Taking the basis of last year, he arrived at the conclusion that the addition of 2d. per lb. on tea would realise at least
  £325,000, and if they added to that the sum of £648,000, which was the amount raised by the tea duty before the extra tax was imposed, they would find that Ireland last year contributed by way of taxation on tea a sum not very far short of £1,000,000 sterling.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I will try to have these figures presented earlier next year, for that would certainly be an advantage. As far as I can tell—and I would remind hon. Members that the last year's receipts have been much upset by forestalments—the total amount received last year on tea was £6,250,000, and the Irish share of that would be
  £875,000.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid he estimated that it would be over £900,000, and that sum was not far off a million pounds. The figures given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer were no doubt correct, and they showed an increase of considerably over £250,000 at the very least upon the amount paid by Ireland before the extra 2d. was put upon tea last year. In all seriousness, this was a matter upon which they really had a grievance that would be recognised by everybody who inquired into the circumstances. He found that
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  throughout the length and breadth of his own constituency, comprising between 12,000 and 13,000 electors, tea was the one article of diet above all others which was more largely and regularly used than any single thing which the people put into their mouths. They took tea with their breakfast and at their evening meal, and if they were working in the fields tea was often brought to them in cans—in fact they never took anything else as a rule to drink. Of course the people who went to fairs and markets from time to time often had a drink of whisky, and small blame to them; but tea, which was one of the principal articles of consumption by the poor people of Ireland, had been singled out by the Government for extra taxation. He was not in favour of placing an additional tax on alcoholic beverages, although he was as much in favour of temperance as any other section of hon. Members of the House. He thought alcoholic beverages had been taxed to the utmost extent in Ireland. But although he objected to additional taxation upon alcoholic beverages he thought the Government should have found some means of raising taxation without putting a fresh burden upon the necessaries of life. They knew why an additional 2d. was put upon tea. For the same reason sugar and coal had been taxed this year and the income tax had been raised. This additional burden had been placed upon the people of Ireland, because they had to contribute towards the monstrous state of affairs existing in South Africa at the present time. He did not propose to go into that question now, but he held that the Irish people ought to be exempted from the slightest taxation which had been necessitated by the war. If there was one part of the country where the war had been denounced more than any other it was in Ireland, where they considered that it had been not only most disastrous to the credit of this country, but also unprofitable in every other way. The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted the other night that the people of this country would have to pay for the war, and pay the full cost, and nothing was more striking and straightforward than his statement that it was nonsense and humbug to lead people to believe that the Transvaal

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  would be able to bear any portion worth mentioning of the cost of the war. That statement meant that the war would have to be paid for out of the hard-earned money of the taxpayer of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales. The people of England allowed this war to be brought about, and they applauded it from the commencement. They rended the air with shouts of satisfaction at every fresh expense incurred, and at every fresh detachment of troops which were marched through the streets with bands playing. He thought that if the people of England were polled now they would be sorry that they did that. They were now beginning to realise that the game was not worth the candle, and that it would have been better for the security and the prosperity of the Empire if the Boers had been left in their own country, and if the resources of this country had been devoted to the safeguarding the British Empire as it stood instead of endeavouring to increase it by conquest. The hon. Member for Oldham stated that every lump of sugar put into her tea by an old woman would be firing a shot at Kruger, but he did know whether that statement would be sufficient to arouse the enthusiasm of the women at Oldham. When the British workman was informed by his wife that she had to pay more for her sugar and he had to fork out more money, he would commence to realise that all this jingo bluster and brag could not be none for nothing, that the day of reckoning had arrived, that the spree was over, and the taxpayer was beginning to find that the wine was bad and he had got a headache. The taxpayers of Ireland ought not be called upon to bear a farthing of the cost of this war, as they had hated it from the beginning and they hated it now. He proposed this Amendment upon two grounds. In the first place he thought that any additional taxation upon Ireland on account of this war was unfair and unnecessary, and in the second place he objected to it on the ground that Ireland was already overtaxed for Imperial matters. He moved his Amendment in order to reduce the tax to what it was before last year, on the ground that in this special article of tea Ireland was particularly injured, while they objected to any taxation in any shape or form for the
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  purposes of this war. They considered that if they must be taxed it was an outrage to take the principal article of consumption in the country, and strike a blow at the cause of temperance by putting a tax upon the principal beverage of the people.
  Amendment proposed—
  "In line 4, to leave out the word 'sixpence,' and insert the word 'fourpence.'"—(Mr. William Redmond.)
  Question proposed, "That the word 'sixpence' stand part of the resolution."
  MR. LOUGHthought his hon. friend who had just sat down had put the matter before the Committee very cogently. He had proposed a clean reduction of the tax to its old figure, and if there was to be any reduction that would be the most logical way of meeting the matter. He believed that any attempt to graduate the tea tax would be a failure, and it would be unworkable and would not have the effect which some hon. Members thought it would. Supposing that facilities were given by this House for the free importation and distribution of the commonest kind of tea. You would not do the agricultural labourer any good at all. Common tea was not economical for it was the dearest that the labourer could possibly have, and if this House would take means to prevent the labourer getting common tea and ensure that he should obtain only a good quality in tea and other articles of food it would do him more good than taking means to facilitate the distribution of what was bad. If the tax on tea was graduated as was proposed to be done in regard to sugar the inevitable effect would be to put a premium on the lowest quality, which would beat down the higher qualities in order that the article might come in at the lowest rate allowed by the scale. If any reduction in the duty on tea took place it ought to be an all round reduction such as the hon. Member for East Clare had proposed. He hoped that this matter would be carefully considered by the Government. This review of the tea tax was the first opportunity the Committee had of considering the effect of the additions made to taxation last year on the various articles upon which the rates had been increased. With regard to spirits, the right hon. Gentleman said they had reached the top

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  limit; but his estimate with regard to wine had not been realised. For the first time he said his beer estimate had not been realised.
  Then the Chancellor of the Exchequer came to tea, and he admitted that although the tax had produced as much as he expected a most disastrous blow had been struck at business by the tax. This raised a question of the greatest economic magnitude which the Committee ought to consider. This was the first increase which had taken place in the tax on tea since that article had begun to be grown so largely in British Colonies. The tremendous growth of the tea industry was one of the most astonishing movements which had taken place in British colonies during the last thirty years. For the first time the House was taking a new step, and it was no light thing when they had reduced the tax to a low level
  suddenly to increase it. It was very important to look at the effect produced by this tax, for it was such that it ought to make the Government pause before they made such experiments. He would compare the article of tea with sugar. We got 84 per cent. of all the tea used in this country from the colonies, and only 16 per cent. from foreign countries. On the other hand, we got 94 per cent. of our sugar from foreign countries and only 6 per cent. from the colonies. The tea so largely consumed by our people was for the most part produced in India and Ceylon, and undoubtedly the increase in the tax which was made last year had struck a disastrous blow to the industry. The hon. Member opposite had stated that the whole of this tax would fall upon the producer, but he did not think it would. The consumption of tea had been checked, which had caused prices to fall, and thereby the produce had been hit. The consumer also had suffered; if there had been over-production, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated, the consumer would have got the benefit, but he had not got it, because he had to pay considerably more for his tea. Before the tax was raised tea had been sold at 1s. per pound, but now it was not retailed at less than 1s. 2d., and it would be of great benefit if the extra 2d. were taken off. Therefore the consumer paid the increase. The Chancellor of the Exchequer contrasted
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  the position now with what it was at the time of the war with France between 1814 and 1815. It was an extraordinary thing to say, when they remembered how the well-being of the people had increased since that period, that the finding of a great sum of money unexpectedly and for a new purpose might impose almost greater burdens on the people now than it did ninety or one hundred years ago. Although wealth had increased it was invested in great enterprises, and it was not easy suddenly to withdraw the money from those enterprises in order to apply it to any other purpose. Therefore it would be well if the expenditure of the country could be so restricted that the gradual growth of taxation would meet the requirements of the country without putting on new taxes. It would be a great benefit now if the 2d. put upon tea could be withdrawn, and if his hon. friend pressed this motion to a division he should vote with him, because it was a most important question.
  When they came to the case of Ireland, certainly his hon. friend had submitted to the House one or two important facts which ought to be carefully considered. There was no way they could hit Ireland worse than by raising the tax on tea or tobacco. Perhaps tea was the most important article of necessity for the Irish people, and nearly £900,000 had been paid by this poor small island last year on this one article. He wished to put one point to the hon. Gentleman who was representing the Chancellor of the Exchequer at that moment. If he might make a suggestion to the Irish Members, he would advise them not to allow the further stages of this Budget to be taken until the figures with regard to the taxation of Ireland for the year ending the 31st of March last were placed before the House. The Government did not intend to put them before the House at the time when they would be the most use. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had given them one figure in regard to the tea duty, and there could be no difficulty in supplying the others because the figures must be known to the Treasury. The gross amount realised by all the taxes of the United Kingdom had been quoted, and if that was known then the amount that had

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  come from Ireland was known and the Irish Members ought to wake up the Treasury upon this question.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO The TREASURY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN,): I will make inquiries as to the Return, for there is no desire whatever to keep back this information.
  MR. LOUGHsaid he was an old hand at this game, for he had tried to get the figures every year for six years. He had written to the Treasury for them but the result was that the House never got them until August. He thought he had satisfied the House that the figures wore in existence, and they could easily be laid before the House prior to proceeding with the later stages of the Budget. He thought there was much in the condition of Ireland to make this House pause before it piled upon Ireland such heavy burdens of taxation. The House took most curious action with regard to Ireland in this matter. The House got from Ireland most interesting Returns as to pauperism, emigration, and so forth, but no attention whatever was paid to them. He was told that 48,000 people emigrated from Ireland last year. An Irish Member who recently addressed the Dublin Chamber of Commerce made an interesting calculation regarding what that meant in money. The average age of these emigrants was 22 years. Assuming that each had cost £5 per annum to bring up, Ireland was a loser by
  £110 for each one of these 48,000 emigrants. They were lost to the country at the time that they had become producers, and might do something to repay to the country the expenditure that had been made upon them. Thus, he proved that Ireland had to pay the terrible price of
  £5,000,000 in one year for this stream of emigration from the country. This House was doing nothing all the time to help the country, but rather putting increased taxation on it. There was a great article of food in Ireland which was not taxed. He meant the potato. The annual Return given to the House with regard to the potato crop in Ireland showed the alarming fact that last year it decreased 33 per cent.—900,000 tons of potatoes all over the country. Taking it at £3 per ton this would mean a loss of
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  £2,750,000. This House paid no attention to these extraordinary events with which the poor people of Ireland had to deal. The hon. Member for East Clare put the cost Ireland would have to pay for the war at £2,500,000. No other British dependency paid a penny. Canada had been as much in favour of the war as England or Scotland, but would Canada contribute anything? Not a shilling. Canada sent soldiers, but the Canadians got 5s. per day, while the Irish soldiers got fifteen pence. There was an example of the inequality with which Ireland was treated as compared with other parts of the Empire. With these facts before the minds of the Irish people at all times, was it to be wondered that the representatives of Ireland pressed their claims with such vehemence? The Chancellor of the Exchequer in his Budget statement drew a comparison between what the people of England had to pay this year for this great war and what they had to pay in 1814–15. In 1815 we had the advantage of knowing what Great Britain and Ireland paid respectively. Great Britain paid that year £78,000,000 with a population of 14,000,000. The population of Great Britain had gone up to 36,000,000, so that if she paid the same amount now per head as in 1815 she should pay £195,000,000; but she was only asked to pay £140,000,000, or 25 per cent. less, notwithstanding the great increase in wealth per head of the population, than she paid in the year of Waterloo, and the year before it. What did Ireland pay? Ireland had a population of 6,250,000 then, and paid £6,500,000 altogether, and that was a terrible burden on her. If she paid this year the same proportion according to population as in 1815 she would pay only £5,000,000, but if she paid the same proportion according to population as Great Britain was paving, she would only pay £4,000,000. But she was asked to pay £10,250,000. This single illustration indicated the eighty years financial ill-treatment of Ireland. During that period the contribution of the British per head had decreased 25 per cent., but the contribution of Ireland had been more than doubled. That was the great history of injustice his hon. friends from Ireland were constantly preaching in this House. He thought

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  they ought to get a careful reply from the Government whether nothing could be done with regard to the important matter of the tea duty.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: It would be difficult to make out a stronger case than the hon. Member for East Glare has made for the reduction of the duty on tea. The extraordinary Budget introduced to the House is probably one of the most unpopular that has ever been submitted. The proposal has been made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer to add for an indefinite period at least £11,000,000 to the permanent taxation of the country. I dare say that when the time comes other demands will be made to the House to provide for the abnormal expenditure in consequence of the South African war. Above all other parts of the Empire Ireland should most certainly escape any increase of taxation in connection with the war, because on every possible occasion, both inside and outside the House, the people of Ireland, through their elected representatives, have taken every opportunity to protest against the war. Although they have dissociated themselves in every possible way from it, a tremendous increase of taxation has been brought about, and the Irish people are now compelled to pay the piper, although they did not call the tune. They have to assist in finding vast sums of money, not to speak of other sacrifices which have been made, for carrying on all this insane policy in South Africa. My hon. friend very properly laid great stress upon that injustice. I do not expect that anything I can say will change the mind of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, because, of course, one of the difficulties under which we labour is that no matter what case we make out for the redress of Irish grievances, we are told that
  practically we must abide by the results of a partnership to which our forefathers certainly were not parties, and which, if we could by any possible means, we would most certainly shake off.
  Now the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to renew the tea tax of 6d. per pound. It is perhaps remarkable that it was Mr. Gladstone in 1861 who first fixed the duty on tea at 6d. per pound. This country has progressed very much since then, but now,
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  forty years after that, we find the same proposal made with regard to this most used article of diet. That does not show to my mind that the Chancellor of the Exchequer is acting on progressive lines with regard to the article which has the greatest consumption in the country. In 1898, when the Chancellor of the Exchequer had a comparatively large surplus, the tea tax was reduced to 4d. per pound, and he also reduced the tobacco tax the same year. The right hon. Gentleman has since then changed his policy, and placed the tea tax again on the people. I agree with my hon. friend that the tax on tea presses on the poor in Ireland in a very peculiar way. Tea is universally used in Ireland, and I am sorry to say in this connection that I fear we are made to pay in another way in Ireland besides taxation. It is a lamentable fact that lunacy in Ireland is largely on the increase. I have acted magisterially in a great number of cases in my own county in which unfortunate persons have had to be committed to asylums, and over and over again medical testimony has been produced that the persons to be committed had largely used tea of an inferior quality. Now, one of the results of keeping up the high tax on tea is that you compel the poorer classes to make use of tea of an inferior quality. I
  know that some hon. Gentlemen will not agree with that portion of my argument. Some may say that the question of taxation does not enter into the intrinsic value of tea or of its quality as it might appear to do. But I find that we have thrown on to the Irish market very large quantities of inferior rubbish, gathered from London warehouses, which is sold retail at from 1s. 2d. to 1s. 6d. per pound. This tea being offered to the poor Irish people under exceptional circumstances, they buy large quantities of it and use it, not immoderately, but largely. It so happens that being so very poor they mostly live on a vegetable diet, mostly potatoes, and if on the top of that they take this trashy tea, it is easy to understand, and it is not to be wondered at, that that is the cause of the increase of lunacy in our country. The Chancellor of the Exchequer told us just now that nearly a million of money had been extracted from Ireland during the past year for this tea duty.

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  That came upon me as a great surprise. I certainly did not think that so large a sum as £875,000 could possibly be collected from our country for this simple article of tea. The right hon. Gentleman introduced his Budget in a perfectly frank—almost brutally frank—manner. While the tea duty might be a perfectly legitimate imposition as regards England, it is not so to a poor country like Ireland, which has protested against the war from the very beginning; and the Irish Members are bound to protest against this impost, and to take every opportunity the rules of the House afford them to try and induce the Government to change their mind in regard to the taxation of tea. I would have been in favour of the hon. Member for East Clare moving to exempt Ireland from this tax altogether. I think that would have been the fairest way. The right hon. Gentleman told us that in four years the tax on tea had jumped up in Ireland from £490,000 to £875,000. That is an alarming statement—an increase of almost 100 per cent.—and is a sufficient justification for any action we may take in opposing this resolution. It has been said, very properly, that the imposition of this large tax on tea in Ireland is a discouragement to temperance. I am glad to see two distinguished advocates of temperance on the other side of the House, and I am sure they will agree with me that there is nothing that contributes so much to temperance as to encourage the use of tea.
  MR. WILLIAM JOHNSTON: Will the hon. Gentleman agree to an increased tax on whisky?
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I am not interested in the whisky trade in the slightest degree.
  MR. WILLIAM JOHNSTON: I did not desire to make any personal reflection and if I have hurt the hon. Gentleman, I beg pardon.
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I am as strong a teetotaler as he is. The hon. Member for East Clare, in moving this Amendment, pointed out very truly that the poor peasantry in Ireland rarely go to the market towns—only once a week or once a fortnight. They may then take some refreshment, because they may have come long distances, and may not have had much food, and they do sometimes
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  transgress the rules of temperance; but I do not think complaint can be made against them about their conduct in their own houses or on their small farms. I have seen them in their homes and at work in their fields, and the beverage which they take is tea. The right hon. Gentleman could not confer a much greater favour upon those who wish to see the cause of temperance progress than if he could see his way to accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for East Clare, But the Amendment proceeds on the higher ground of the financial relations between the two countries. In Ireland taxation goes up and population goes down. We cannot believe that it is a good thing to see a country's population going down. For every individual who goes out of the country the country loses a wealth-producing unit, whether the circumstances of the country are good or bad. I have seen it stated that every adult who lauds in a new country means for that country an increase of national wealth of
  £200 a year. Our people are going steadily away from Ireland, and leaving those behind them to bear a heavier share of the increasing burdens, and I do not know how those who remain will be able to endure it at all, because of the fiscal relations which exist between the two countries. The right hon. Gentleman has been perfectly frank with this House as to the means by which he intends to meet his great responsibilities, but if he could see his way to differentiate between England and Ireland on this matter, it would be only a matter of
  £200,000 or less. We are entitled to it, because we have been no parties to the cause of your expenditure, and it would afford a substantial relief to the poorest class of our people I know the difficulties of the right hon. Gentleman, and that he has had to suffer in his own person, it may be said, for the sins of others, and that he has to pay the bill which others have created, I do hope that this Amendment, proposed in all seriousness and moderation, will receive consideration. If the right hon. Gentleman can meet us on this point, we are not so much interested in the coal duty, and might be able to see our way to help him in that other point. And if he does so, he would establish upon the Irish Members, and the people of Ireland generally, a claim to

  1375
  more credit than perhaps he will get from his own friends behind him.
  SIR MANCHERJEE BHIOWNAGGREEsaid he was sorry that this truly Imperial question had been reduced to the lower plane of an Irish question. Still, he believed that the remarks of hon. Gentlemen below the gangway opposite had proved two things which should make anyone rejoice who had the good of the people at heart—first, that there was a very large consumption of tea in Ireland, and, second, that whereas two years ago the hon. Member for East Mayo denounced the consumption of tea as a poisonous beverage compared with whisky—[Cries from the Irish Benches of "No, no."] He was speaking from personal recollection, and the hon. Member for East Mayo—who, he was sorry, was not present—said he was in favour of Irish whisky in preference to tea. These were two salient facts elicited in the discussion that night. Taking back the question to the common sense tone given to the discussion by the hon. Member for Hull, he wished in a few words to support the case he had made out for an abatement of the duty on a future occasion. Two years ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer could have reduced the duty, but this was not an occasion when he could be expected to do so. They might, however, advance arguments so that whenever it was possible the right hon. Gentleman might be induced to take advantage of the first opportunity to reduce the duty and give an indulgence to a commodity of vast consumption here, and thereby also encourage one of the few remaining large industries of India. His hon. friend had spoken on behalf of the planters, and shown that the tea industry was in a parlous condition. He could speak on behalf of the working class community whom he represented in the House, as well as for large classes of Indian labourers engaged in tea-growing. It was truly both an English and an Indian question, and one on which the Chancellor of the Exchequer should bestow as much attention as he could. India, as everyone knew, had suffered from famine during the last three or four years, from natural causes, beyond human control—[An HON. MEMBER on the Irish Benches: Prom British government.] He absolutely
  1376
  denied any sense in that interruption. He did believe they were natural causes, and that the British Government had done everything in its power to meet and redress the sufferings of the people. On account of causes beyond human control, India had suffered immensely, and he was sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as a member of a Government which was inspired by a high sense of Imperialism, would not have retained the present high duty on tea if he could have helped it, but would have done all in his power to encourage an industry which supported a large portion of the population of India. The hon. Member for Hull had advocated the case of the Indian tea-planters on strong grounds. He approached the question more particularly from the point of view of the Indian labourer, millions of whom were dependent on the industry. Their very bread depended upon it, and anything that could be done to promote and develop that industry should, in the interests of the Indian labourer, have the indulgence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He was exceedingly pleased to hear the right hon. Gentleman in his opening statement say that he would not think of increasing the duty on tea. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that the duty had reached a point at which it could not be further enhanced, and he gave, as was the general belief, a promise that in future years, when his financial needs were not so great as at present, he would seriously do what lay in him to reduce that duty. He trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would that night strengthen that belief by repeating his assurance. He could assure the right hon. Gentleman that he or his hon. friend the Member for Hull had no desire to go into the same lobby with the mover of the Amendment. The resolution before the Committee was one of purely Imperial wants, and should be considered and decided upon sound financial grounds. It was idle to expect that any sensible man would go into the lobby with hon. Members who wanted to reduce existing duties at the present moment when unusually large financial provision had to be made. But, at the proper time, justice should be done to a great industry of immense importance to the people of India, and which provided a necessary article of

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  food for the people of this country. He believed that this was a health and temperance, besides being an economic question, for if tea could be had at cheaper rates than now, it would help the temperance cause and the working man's household. He could say from his own experience that it was harder in this country to get a cup of good tea than a glass of beer at railway stations and elsewhere. Tea should be freely placed at the disposal of the consumers who were at present induced for want of a good cup of tea to take to alcoholic drinks. He saw the hon. Member for East Mayo now present, and he would therefore repeat what he had said at the commencement of his speech that a couple of years ago that hon. Gentleman had declared that tea was an unhealthy and poisonous drink as compared with Irish whisky.
  MR. DILLON: Yes, I recollect the occasion very well. What I said was that excessive tea-drinking was extremely unhealthy.
  SIR MANCHERJEE BHOWNAGGREE: Yes, but the hon. Gentleman did not say that excessive whisky drinking was unhealthy.
  MR. DILLON: I was speaking of tea, and not of whisky.
  SIR MANCHERJEE BHOWNAGGREE: Yes, but you brought in the whisky. I distinctly remember that you brought in the whisky. I confess I was staggered, as I gave credit to the hon. Gentleman for being a strong believer in what he asserts, and for the moment I accepted his statement, however strange it might be. But I am greatly rejoiced to-night to hear a different version from the Irish Benches and so much said in praise of tea. All things considered, let us return to plain common sense on this question. We are not going into the lobby with the Irish Members, and I shall vote for the right hon. Gentleman's resolution in the firm belief and hope that in another year he will reduce the duty on tea.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid that the hon. Member for North-East Bethnal Green would have shown both courage and consistency if, on this occasion, he had gone into the lobby to which his convictions would have carried him. Some years ago hon. Gentlemen who
  1378
  now sat on the Government side of the House, raised this question in the most extreme and effective form in which it possibly could be raised. Colonel Brookfield moved a resolution that this House was unwilling to sanction a Bill which involved the continuance for another year of the tax upon tea. The hon. Member was not only willing to move an Amendment to a resolution of this kind, but was perfectly prepared to throw out the Finance Bill altogether unless the tax upon tea were abolished altogether. And a very large number of hon. Gentleman—indeed the whole of the Conservative and Unionist party—voted, he believed, with that hon. Member. He would venture to suggest to the hon. Gentleman that this was an occasion on which he could exercise the virtue of consistency. The hon. Gentleman said that the difficulties of the Chancellor of the Exchequer were considerable this year, but that when better times came and when the Budget showed a surplus, he hoped the tea duties would be reduced. He wondered whether that time would ever come? Should they ever see it—any of them at present in the House? He would remind the House that at the time when there was a surplus he had brought forward a motion of this kind, and the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer might then have afforded to give way and made the concession. But the right hon. Gentleman had allowed that golden opportunity to pass by, and now they saw the poorer classes in this country, and the tea industry of India and Ceylon, burdened with a tax which amounted to 100 per cent. of the value of the article which the latter produced. Between 80 and 90 per cent. of the tea imports to this country came from India and Ceylon, and therefore he appealed on behalf of that great industry in India and Ceylon, as well as in behalf of the poor consumers of their tea in this country. There was a time when the poor consumer had the sympathy and attention of hon. Gentlemen opposite. He recollected the time when the hon. Member for North Islington gave the House some very interesting calculations which showed that the man who earned £1 a week paid 1s. 6d. in tea duty, the man who earned £2 a week paid

  1379
  1s. 2d., the man who earned £3 paid 1s. 2½d., the man whose income was £10,000 a year paid 10d., and the man whose income was between £10,000 and £100,000 paid between 6d. and 7d. He admitted that the proportions since then bad changed, but only to a very slight degree. There was another view that ought not to be disregarded, namely, the view of the working classes, who had been penalised in the past and were still penalised very largely in regard to taxation as compared with other classes of the community. He challenged the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who knew more about public finance than anyone in the House, to get up and say that the working men of this country in proportion to their income did not contribute a larger share to the State than any other class. If inquiry were made it would be found that they contributed a very much larger share, and hon. Gentlemen who had moved for the total abolition of the tax upon tea had done so upon that ground, he and those who thought with him were of opinion that at the present time, although the circumstances in which the light hon. Gentleman found himself were different from those of other years, they were justified in pressing for a reduction of 2d. in the pound. The right hon. Gentleman might reply that the fiscal obligations of the year were such that he could not give way upon this point, but if that reply were made, he would ask were there not certain doles and sops that had been given during the past few years to favoured classes and interests; to those whom the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for India described as the "friends" of himself and his party. If those were now taken away, and instead of them a reduction of 2d. granted on an article of large and necessary consumption by the poor, he thought that would be a graceful act on the part of the right hon. Gentleman.
  MAJOR RASCHthought the remarks as to doles and sops must have been directed to the agricultural grant, and therefore he thought it was only right that he should say a few words upon this subject. There was no doubt that tea-planters and merchants had in times gone by
  1380
  been making very considerable profits, whereas the people in the agricultural districts had to eke out a precarious existence by growing wheat at
  40s. and selling it at 30s. Yet they made no complaint to the Chancellor or anybody else. Whenever an agricultural Member ventured to talk about finance, hon. Members generally thought he was going to advocate protection. He could, however, indicate certain sources of revenue by which the right hon. Gentleman could close the mouths of hon. Gentlemen with reference to tea, and also give some help to the agricultural interest. The agricultural interest were altruistic first and agricultural afterwards. What they desired was the greatest good of the greatest number. Nothing would induce him to put his hand on the ark of the covenant, or suggest a duty on wheat, or a registration duty on corn, any more than he would talk scandal about Queen Elizabeth or talk disrespectfully about the equator. But there were, for example, £90,000,000 worth of foreign manufactured goods which came into this country every year, one of which was called flour, which would bear a 2s. duty.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is now travelling rather wide of the resolution before the Committee.
  MAJOR RASCHsaid under these circumstances he should not pursue the subject further, but would reserve his observations until a more favourable opportunity arose. He would be glad to see the duties on tea, sugar, and coal doubled, in order to get a reduction of the general taxation of the country.
  MR. FLYNNsaid although the reduction of the duty upon tea was of very little consequence to the rich man, owing to the small quantity of tea which he used, it was very material to the poor, and when the constituents of the hon. Gentleman heard that he advocated doubling the tax they would be very much dissatisfied with the action of their representative. The hon and gallant Member was like other hon. Gentlemen who sat on his side of the House; although they frequently made speeches in favour of Amendments

  1381
  moved by the other side they were very seldom found voting in the same lobby. Some extraordinary figures had been put forward with regard to this tax. It seemed that Ireland paid no less than £900,000 in respect to the tax upon tea, and he thought the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having regard to the poverty of that country, would be doing a gracious thing if he accepted the Amendment proposed and reduced the duty.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: My hon. friend the Member for Central Hull and the hon. Member for West Islington have approached this matter from the point of view of India and Ceylon, but I hope I have shown that I have not been wanting in sympathy with the tea interest there in what I have already said with reference to this subject. I am quite aware that the tea interest is a most important one, and that at present it is in anything but a satisfactory position; but I rather attribute that state of things to over-production than to increased taxation. My hon. friend compared the taxation of tea at 6d. per lb. with the taxation of cocoa and coffee, and he suggested that the tax on cocoa and coffee ought to be raised. But I would remind my hon. friend that when the taxation of tea was 6d. in the lb. the taxation of coffee and cocoa was the same as now, and that when the tax on tea was lowered, cocoa and coffee remained as they were. My hon. friend said that in his opinion the increased duty last year had been paid, not by the consumer in this country, but by the producer, and that the price of tea has not been increased on account of excessive production. I think there is a good deal of truth in those statements. I do not say that the extra duty of 2d. imposed last year has not been to some extent an increase of burden on Ireland, but my belief is that, owing to the reduced cost of the article, apart from the duty, although those who live in Ireland have had to bear a larger amount of the total sum raised from tea than before, they have had more tea for it. The increase of duty, therefore, has not been, to the full extent represented by hon. Members, a loss to Ireland. I confess that although I sympathise with the great industry of India and Ceylon, vet I think in dealing
  1382
  with this question we must first consider the interests of our own taxpayers. If I could reduce the tea duty I should be glad to do so, but to talk of a reduction this year is, to my mind, simply impossible. It has been suggested by hon. Gentlemen below the gangway that if we chose to abolish what are called doles—in other words, the grant under the Agricultural Rating Act to English tenant-farmers—we might devote the money to reduce the duty on tea. I think hon. Members opposite were a little ungrateful in this matter. That grant was made the reason, and I think a sound one, for giving them, under the Irish Local Government Act, a very large grant from the Imperial Exchequer for Ireland.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: That was for the landlords chiefly.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: No, No. Although I may not discuss the question now, I may make this one allusion to that fact, that the grant under the Agricultural Rating Act for England, was the beginning of that additional grant for Irish purposes from the Exchequer. I think hon. Members from Ireland have also rather forgotten what I am attempting to do this year. I have, been obliged to suggest to Parliament the raising of a very considerable sum by additional taxation. I do not know whether they have ever given me credit for having some regard to the views of Irish Members on this matter, for some recollection that Ireland is a poor country compared with Great Britain, and some desire to do what is possible without entirely dislocating our system of taxation to be lenient to the Irish taxpayer. What have I done? Here again I can only allude to the matter without discussing it. In the scheme of taxation I have suggested I have included a tax not one penny of which can fall on Ireland—namely, the coal duty. What was my reward? Not only has there not been the faintest allusion to the exemption, but when the resolution was proposed imposing that duty, to a man hon. Members from Ireland were against it. Why?
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Because it will raise the price of coal.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: I have heard many objections to the duty, but I have not yet heard that it will raise the price of coal. But of course I must not elaborate that argument. My only reason for alluding to it at all was that I am anxious that hon. Members from Ireland should see that in my own proposals about taxation I am endeavouring not to impose upon them more burdens than is absolutely necessary, and that I have regard to the poverty of Ireland in the proposals which I make. I do not know that there is anything else to which I ought to allude except the point raised by the hon. Member for Leicester. In the course of the debate on this question last year, the hon. Member for Leicester suggested that an ad valorem duty would be much fairer to the poorer classes. The hon. Member for West Islington has answered the hon. Member for Leicester. He knows a good deal of the trade, and he knows very well—probably much better than I do—that more than half a century ago ad valorem duties on tea existed, and they were found to be such a nuisance, owing to the constant friction and quarrels between the Crown authorities on the one side and the merchants on the other, that they were abolished by unanimous consent. The hon. Member for Leicester has always advocated advanced opinions, but in this matter he is somewhat retrograde, for whatever the House of Commons may do with respect to taxation, I do not think it will revert to an ad valorem duty on tea again.
  MR. HERBERT LEWIS: Not even on sugar either. The right hon. Gentle-man's argument is just as applicable to sugar as to tea.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: The duty on sugar is not an ad valorem duty. It is a duty of 4½ per cwt. on crystallisable sugar, whether that quantity of crystallisable sugar be contained in 1 cwt. of refined sugar, or in 2 cwts. of the lowest class of raw sugar, and that is the reason of our proposals with regard to sugar. I hope I have not by my remarks invited the Committee to discuss a matter which is beyond the scope of the resolution before it, and I trust that hon. Members, however in favour of a reduction of this
  1384
  duty they may be, will remember that the financial conditions of this year make the imposition of a sixpenny duty even more necessary than last year, and that, therefore, they will not support the Amendment moved by the hon. Member for East Clare.
  MR. DILLONsaid he wished to allude to the points as regards Irish taxation which had been raised by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He desired to say, as an Irish Nationalist Member, that the right hon. Gentleman was wrong in supposing that there was any man on those benches who had not appreciated the efforts he had made on one or two occasions to recognise the grievances of Ireland in regard to taxation. He, himself, had not forgotten the concession made in the tobacco tax, in deference to the protests made from the Irish Benches, and he recognised now in the coal duties an attempt to deal justly with Ireland, for undoubtedly the duty on exported coal was a duty calculated, so far as it went, to lighten the burden on Ireland; and if it were true that Irish Members opposed the coal duty, and would continue to oppose it, they did so, not because they regard it as unfair to Ireland, but because they had resisted, and intended to resist, all supply and taxes for carrying on a war they looked upon as iniquitous. That was the ground, and the only ground, on which he and his colleagues had opposed the coal duty. With regard to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said about the agricultural grant, he desired to point out that
  though that grant was a large sum given to Ireland it was given in a most wasteful way, and one of the reasons why he objected to the general policy of the grant was that once a grant of that character was made it could not be revoked. He admitted that under the agricultural grant Ireland did better than England, but the Government so altered the distribution of the grant as regards Ireland, that out of the £728,000 allocated to that country about £500,000 went into the pockets of the Irish landlords, and so was lost for ever to the axpayers of this country.
  He desired to refer to a most shocking attack made on him personally by the hon. Member for Bethnal Green, who

  1385
  declared that in this House he heard him (Mr. Dillon) some years ago advocating the copious use, of Irish whisky, and saying it was more wholesome than tea. It was the first time he had been accused of preferring Irish whisky to tea. What he did say was that he preferred to see the tobacco tax reduced, because, first, it would relieve the taxpayers more, and, secondly, the excessive consumption of tea by the poorer classes was, in his judgment, an evil, for he believed it was detrimental to health. During this debate he had been anxious to raise his voice in support of the good old Liberal ideal of a free breakfast table. Nothing had surprised him more, and the surprise grew as the years rolled by, than the change that had come over the spirit of this House in respect to that ideal. When he first entered this House the great ideals of the Liberal party were peace, retrenchment, and economy, and at that time when a Minister dared to propose increased taxation he was sure to meet with the strongest opposition, even from his own supporters in the House. Not only had the ideal of the free breakfast table been forgotten, but economy also had been banished to be replaced by Imperialism. We were told the other day by the Member for Oldham that the English people might console themselves for the sugar tax by remembering that every lump of sugar they put into their tea was a shot fired at old Kruger; but he thought the taxpayers of England would soon tire of that amusement. Some hon. Members on the opposite side of the House deplored the tea tax, but said they recognised that it was now impossible to remove it, though they hoped there might be a prospect of doing so in the future. He would like to know how this prospect could arise with the ever-increasing, ever-swelling expenditure. This question was important, because Ireland was bound
  to these taxes as permanent, and this permanent taxation was entirely due to the disgusting, demoralising, and ruinous policy of Imperialism. When he first protested against this policy his voice was as the voice of one crying in the wilderness, but now he found that others outside those benches shared his views, and were alarmed by the enormous growth of the expenditure. He saw them walking about the lobbies with their pockets filled
  1386
  with letters and telegrams from their constituents clamouring against the increased income tax, the new sugar tax, and the coal duty. A patriotic poet wrote a poem some time ago, the refrain of which, "Pay, pay, pay!" might well be plastered on the walls of this House. He held that as these taxes were permanent there should be some reasonable justification for them. And what was the justification put forward by the Chancellor of the Exchequer? In the speech he delivered when introducing the Budget, he said he believed that, as the working men of England were in favour of the war, they would not be unwilling to share in the burden of it. Was it true to say that the working men of England could be held to be responsible for the war? A large number of them were misled and deluded by the corrupt press of England, and we all knew how that press was influenced by the Stock Exchange and the wealthier classes. It was not true that the working classes were responsible for the war. In the Amendment he moved in the House in October, 1899, protesting against the war, he had the support of nearly the whole of the Labour Members. Since that time we had had the horrible scenes in the city arising out of the Mafeking relief and the return of the C.I.V.
  THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The hon. Gentleman is travelling rather wide of the resolution.
  MR. DILLONmaintained that those ought to pay for the war who made the war, and substantially speaking the people responsible were the payers of the income tax, and especially the larger payers. The Chancellor of the Exchequer and his supporters had always asked—"If you object to our proposals, what is your alternative?" That question left the Irish Members untouched, because they had opposed the war from the beginning, and it was a grossly unjust thing to inflict any portion of the cost of this war on the people of Ireland, seeing that five-sixths of them had opposed it. But it he were asked his alternative, it would be to put the income tax up to 1s. 6d., and let the shipowners and mineowners and others who had made millions

  1387
  out of the war pay for it. Besides, that would really be the wiser course. In connection with this, the Irish Members were entitled to quarrel with the position of the Chancellor. This tax was really a war tax—a tax necessitated by the enormous yearly growth of the expenditure of this country What was the hon. Gentleman's attitude with regard to the expenditure? For four years the House had been listening to him in emphatic tones condemning the extravagance of the Government, and we heard the same thing a few days ago. On 16th May last† he drew an appalling picture of the steady annual increase. He pointed out the increase of £4,000,000 on the previous year, and said it was a real danger, which had gone on in spite of the efforts of himself and others. Well, he was a member of the Government, and responsible for what the Government did, especially for the finances. What, then, were they to think if the right hon. Gentleman were to go down to the country and condemn the finances of the Government to which he belonged?
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: No.
  MR. DILLON: Yes. Did he not say it was a danger to the country and was increasing in spite of his efforts? Was it not the business of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see that some proper system of finance was followed? On what principle could the right hon. Gentleman remain a member of a Government which was increasing the annual expenditure to such an extent that he felt it his duty to go down to the country and say what he did say? The country was entitled to expect that in this Budget there should be some appearance of the influence of his views. It was mocking the country. If the finance of the Government was right, the right hon. Gentleman had no right to condemn it.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: The hon. Member does not know, though I think hon. Members will do me the justice to believe that what I say to this House and in the country I say to my colleagues. I have never denied, and I
  † Speech at Bristol.
  1388
  never should deny, my full responsibility or the expense incurred, but I do feel it my duty whenever I find a proper opportunity to point out to everyone—to the country at large—the danger of a great increase of expenditure.
  MR. DILLONsaid his point was that if the Chancellor of the Exchequer, having year after year pointed out to the country and the House—he was not finding fault; on the contrary, many on that side of the House admired his courage—that this great growth of the ordinary national expenditure was a great danger, and found that his opinion was not followed, he was bound to do something more than that. But a strange development was taking place under their very eyes, and he would have to ask if this question, like the Catholic University question, was to be treated as an open question. The Leader of the House declared that he was in favour of the Catholic University, but said that it must be treated as an open question—a doctrine that was perfectly novel. It appeared to him that a like attitude had been arrived at with regard to this question of the financial policy of the country; in other words, that the responsibility of Ministers no longer existed. It appeared to him a most amazing and extraordinary doctrine, and it bore directly on the present tax, because he maintained that they were now engaged in considering a permanent tax. Hon. Gentlemen opposite talked about the opportunity which would arise in future years for reconsidering taxation, but if the present principle which governed finance were adhered to they would have to look forward, not to a reduction, but to an increase of taxation. He thought they had a right to complain, and to comp ain most bitterly, of the deception which had been practised on the House from the outset of the war with regard to the financial obligations to which they were being pledged. The taxation they were now considering was part of the whole system, and could not be considered apart from it, because were it not for the burden which had sprung directly from the war they might possibly have hoped for a reduction of taxation. But the House was being led on by a system of delusion into a swamp,

  1389
  in which they would soon find themselves up to their necks, and from which they would find it impossible to extricate themselves. Some of his hon. friends and himself had raised their voices in warning against the result which would follow from the outrageous policy of the Government with regard to finance, but they were laughed at, and the House persisted in taking a roseate view of the situation. One of the points regarding which they had specially complained was the persistent statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the greater part of the cost of the war would be recovered from the Transvaal.
  THE CHAIRMAN: That subject cannot be relevant to the question of the tea tax.
  MR. DILLONsaid that it would appear to be relevant if he were heard to the end. [An. HON. MEMBER: Order, order!] Hon. Members who had just entered the House and knew nothing about the rules were always ready to call an hon. Member to order, who had at least had some experience. He was quite prepared to submit to the ruling of the Chair, but not to amateurs. To his mind, the gravity of the situation was that such was the financial condition of the country that they had no chance of reducing the tea duty unless the Committee decided to adopt the course he had suggested. It was impossible for him to argue the question of the tea duty properly without some reference to the general financial position. They were asked how they proposed to reduce the tea duty in view of the necessities of the war, and they would have to meet that by making some alternative proposal, and by generally discussing the way in which the country had been brought into its present condition. What he was about to say might perhaps be more-relevant to the loan resolution.
  THE CHAIRMAN; That was the occasion on which the matter was discussed before, and on the Report stage of that resolution or on the Bill itself would be the proper time to raise the subject.
  MR. DILLONsaid he would have an opportunity on the Report stage of the
  1390
  loan resolution to say what he had intended to say. He would only add that it was customary in dealing with Budget resolutions to discuss their general bearing. He would, however, accept the ruling of the Chair, and postpone the discussion.
  MR. JOHN WILSONsaid he rose merely for the purpose of asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer for a further explanation of one sentence he made use of when he spoke last. Before doing so he wished to identify himself with the remarks of the hon. Member for East Mayo. The Labour Members in the House of Commons,
  eight in number at least, were entirely against the war from its very inception. Their objection was strong, and was gathering strength. The Chancellor of the Exchequer prided himself on the fact that he was imposing a duty which pressed equally on all classes. He demurred entirely to that proposition. Equality was a relative term, and 2d. per pound on tea, in the case of two families, one having only an income of 10s. or 12s. a week, the other with an income of as many pounds a day as the other had shillings, would not be an equal tax, simply because a larger proportion of the burden would be borne by the poorer family. He decidedly objected to any indirect duties whatever being placed on the necessaries consumed by the working man and his family. The remark to which he specially desired to call attention was that none of the coal duty would fall on Ireland. The Chancellor of the Exchequer congratulated himself on the statement, and tried to conciliate the Irish Members by it. He did not represent any constituency in Ireland, but he was bound to say that he represented many thousands of Irishmen. He would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer a question which might be considered hypothetical, but which would be found not to be hypothetical before the discussion on the coal duty was finished. The coalfields of the North of England, and especially of Durham—
  THE CHAIRMAN: I am afraid the hon. Member is about to discuss the coal tax.
  MR. JOHN WILSON: It is with reference to the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
  THE CHAIRMAN: The Chancellor of the Exchequer said what he did in reply to an observation from the other side of the House, and I cannot allow the discussion to continue.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: If it will satisfy the hon. Member. I will be happy to withdraw what I said.
  MR. JOHN WILSON: I do not wish the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw his statement. I want merely to nail it to the counter if I can, as it will form a very important part of the objection of the working man to this coal duty.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I cannot permit a discussion on the coal tax. If the hon. Member will turn his attention to the question of tea he can discuss that.
  MR. JOHN WILSON: The Chancellor of the Exchequer was not called to order. He suggested—
  THE CHAIRMAN: I have already pointed out to the hon. Member that what the Chancellor of the Exchequer said was said in reply to an observation from the other side of the House. Obviously I could not prevent the Chancellor of the Exchequer from making that reply, but I cannot permit the discussion to continue.
  MR. JOHN WILSON: I was going to show the Chancellor of the Exchequer—
  THE CHAIRMAN: I cannot permit the discussion now. The hon. Member will have a further opportunity.
  MR. CAINEsaid he desired to make it clear, while admitting that revenue must be raised in some way or other, why he objected to the particular form of raising it which was proposed. As long as the Government persisted in their determination to renew the various doles to which objection had already been taken, he would oppose every other form of taxation until that particular form was removed. If
  1392
  the doles which were now given were brought back into the Treasury there would be an available revenue of two or three millions sterling, but as long as they remained as they were he would be bound to oppose every other form of taxation. He had some experience of the lives of the poor in London and other cities. The poor bought tea in small quantities—in one-ounce, two-ounce, or four-ounce packets, and in every instance the paper was invariably weighed with the tea, and the poor paid the same duty on the paper as they did on the tea. In a shop in South London there was being sold tea at 1d. per ounce. Tea cost about 4d. per pound; the 6d. duty was added, and it was then sold at 14d. or 15d. per lb., and a far larger profit was obtained on the duty than on the tea itself. The objectionable feature of indirect taxation on articles of daily consumption was that profit was got on the duty as well as on the article itself. There was another reason why the tea duty was objectionable. When it was put on very strong protests were made by various classes of the community, which he thought demanded more consideration than had been given to them. The persons who took capital and enterprise into India and Ceylon developed the great tea industry, and an enormous amount of money was brought into the pockets of the tea planters in those dependencies. The price of Indian tea had fallen about 1½d. per pound in consequence of the imposition of the duty, and the depression which at present prevailed in the tea districts in India and Ceylon was largely due to that fall in price. The tea industry had been the greatest possible boon to the coolies and farm labourers in the tea districts. It was of far greater advantage than any other industry employing Indian labour, and if for no other reason than because hundreds and thousands of Indian peasants were employed on tea plantations, the duty on that article should be taken off. Tea was the one great luxury of the poor. It was the luxury they valued more than anything else. People talked about the drinking habits of the working classes, but if anyone went to a group of workmen employed away from home he would find six of their dinner cans containing tea to

  1393
  one containing beer. Therefore the tax manifestly pressed very hardly on the poor, and their case ought to meet with more sympathy from the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Hon. Members had no right to object to any particular form of taxation unless they were prepared to suggest an alternative. The alternative he would suggest was that the grants that had been given to agriculture in various forms should be removed. When the Agricultural Rating Act came up for revision, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take the bull by the horns and drop the Act he would be able to reduce the tea duty by 2d. and earn the gratitude of the country.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid that when he moved his Amendment he asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he would be good enough to make arrangements that in future, when they were discussing the Budget resolutions, figures with reference to the previous year should be laid before the House, so that hon. Members might be bettor able to judge of the proposals of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman was good enough to say that he thought the request a reasonable one. It would be satisfactory if the right hon. Gentleman would go a little further, and give a promise that before the Second Reading of the Finance Bill a Return, dealing with, at least, Ireland should be placed in the hands of Members. Before the tea tax was finally passed Members should be in a position thoroughly to understand how much this additional tax realised in Ireland. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that he estimated £875,000 were raised last year in Ireland from tea. No doubt those figures were accurate.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACHpointed out that the sum he gave was not the actual, but an estimated amount, and therefore he could not guarantee its accuracy.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid that made it all the more necessary that his demand should be acceded to, as Members were entitled to have figures showing exactly how this tax had operated during the year. He therefore desired to
  1394
  press two points upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer—first, that for the future arrangements should be made by which before the Budget discussion the figures up to 31st March each year should be in the hands of Members, and secondly, and particularly, that he would, if possible, by a little extra labour on the part of the officials, enable the Irish Members before the Second Reading of the Finance Bill to know exactly how this tax had affected their constituents.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACHwas understood to say that he had already promised to do what he could to supply the figures asked for, but he reminded hon. Members that the tea and other duties would be before the House after the Second Reading of the Bill. It had also to be remembered that these Returns must give the same information from one year to another, in order to give the necessary comparisons. It was desirable that the figures given for last year should be absolutely accurate and not merely estimated, so that Members should be in possession of the actual facts.
  MR. LOUGHurged that it would be better to have a bad return than no return at all. A really practical discussion of Irish finance could not be had without these figures. The figures of a year ago could be given, but of what interest were they in regard to these taxes? The Chancellor of the Exchequer had admitted that an extra £900,000 was put on Ireland last year. That was the most serious thing in regard to taxation which had happened to Ireland since 1801; and yet, when hon. Members asked to know the facts and figures before discussing proposals to impose a further large sum, there was a difficulty about getting such a statement. If the right hon. Gentleman would supply the information before the Committee stage commenced, it would go a long way towards serving the purpose. Even though some slight estimate had to be made to get the return through, the figures would he quite near enough.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 221; Noes, 140. (Division List No. 146.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Butcher, John George

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc. Stroud

  Caldwell, James

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Carson, Rt. Hn. Sir Edw. H.

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Dorington, Sir John Edward

  Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. Herbert H.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.

  Duke, Henry Edward

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cawley, Frederick

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Austin, Sir John

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Dunn, Sir William

  Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Dyke, Rt Hon. Sir William Hart

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Baird, John George Alex.

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc.

  Emmott, Alfred

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Chapman, Edward

  Faber, George Denison

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds

  Charrington, Spencer

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Fenwick, Charles

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Finch, George H.

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Colville, John

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Bill, Charles

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Black, Alexander William

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Flower, Ernest

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Forster, Henry William

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Brassey, Albert

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Furness, Sir Christopher

  Brigg, John

  Crombie, John William

  Garfit, William

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (Cityo'Lond.

  Brookfield, Col. Montagu

  Cust, Henry John C.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hon. Herbert J.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Brymer, William Ernest

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Bull, William James

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  Billiard, Sir Harry

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'ml'ts

  Burt, Thomas

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.

  Sassoon, Sir Edward Albert

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  M'Crae, George

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, AY.

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Simeon, Sir Harrington

  Groves, James Grimble

  Malcolm, Ian

  Sinclair, Capt John (Forfarshire

  Hain, Edward

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Maple, Sir John Blundell

  Smith, H. C (N'th'mb., Tyneside

  Hamilton, Rt Hn L'd G. (Midd'x

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Smith, James P. (Lanarks.)

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'nd'derry

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Spear, John Ward

  Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

  Mellor, Rt. Hon. John Wm.

  Spencer, Rt. Hn. C. R. (North'ts

  Harmsworth, B. Leicester

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Middlemore, John. T.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Harwood, George

  Mitchell, William

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Strachey, Edward

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.)

  Stroyan, John

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Helder, Augustus

  Morley, Rt. Hon. J. (Montrose

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uni.

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Henderson, Alexander

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Tennant, Harold John

  Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptford

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, F.)

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampst'd

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Mount, William Arthur

  Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Thomas, J. A. (Gl'm'rgan, G'w'r

  Holland, William Henry

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hope, J. F. (Sheff'ld, Brightside

  Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

  Tomkinson, James

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Myers, William Henry

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Hozier, Hon. James Henry C.

  Norman, Henry

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Tufnell, Lieut.-Col. Edward

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Palmer, George Wm. (Reading)

  Ure, Alexander

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Partington, Oswald

  Vincent, Col Sir C E H (Sheffield)

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Wallace, Robert

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

  Percy, Earl

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Warde, Col. C. E.

  Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Warner, Thomas C. T.

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop

  Pilkington, Richard

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Keswick, William

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Wason, E. (Clackmannan)

  Kimber, Henry

  Price, Robert John

  Weir, James Galloway

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Priestley, Arthur

  Welby, Lt-Col A. C. E. (Taunt'

  Kinloch, Sir John George S.

  Purvis Robert

  Welby, Sir C. G. E. (Notts.)

  Knowles, Lees

  Quilter, Sir Cuthbert

  Wharton, Rt. Hon. John L.

  Lambert, George

  Rankin, Sir James

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Langley, Batty

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  White, Luke (York, E. B.)

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Ratcliffe, R. F.

  Whiteley, H (Asht'n-und-Lyne

  Lawrence, William F.

  Rea, Russell

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Lawson, John Grant

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Williams, O. (Merioneth)

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wilson, A. S. (York, E. R.)

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk, Mid)

  Leng, Sir John

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Renwick, George

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Llewellyn, Evan Henry

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Rigg, Richard

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Lonsdale, John Brownlee

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Lough, Thomas

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Wylie, Alexander

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Lowther, Rt Hn J W (Cum. Penr.

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Round, James

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Russell, T. W.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Rutherford, John

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Bell, Richard

  Abraham, William (Rhondda

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Blake, Edward

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Boland, John

  1354

  1355

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  O'Dowd, John

  Burke, E. Haviland

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Campbell, John (Armagh S.)

  Joyce, Michael

  O'Mara, James

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Leamy, Edmund

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Crean, Eugene

  Lundon, W.

  Reddy, M.

  Cremer, William Randal

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Cullinan, J.

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Daly, James

  M'Dermott, Patrick

  Roche, John

  Delany, William

  Minch, Matthew

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Dillon, John

  Mooney, John J.

  Sullivan, Donal

  Doogan, P. C.

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  Thompson E C. (Monaghan, N.

  Duffy, William J.

  Murnaghan, George

  Tully, Jasper

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Murphy, J.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  Hammond, John

  O'Brien, Kendal (Tipper'ry M'd

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Hardie, J. Keir (Merthyr Tydvil

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Sir Thomas Esmonde and Mr. Patrick O'Brien.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Bill read the third time, and passed.

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Gordon, Hn J. E. (Elgin & Nairn)

  Myers, William Henry

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Gordon, Maj Ev'ns- (T'rH'mlets

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  Norman, Henry

  Archdale Edward Mervyn

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Green, Walford D (Wednesbury

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Austin, Sir John

  Gretton, John

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Percy, Earl

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Groves, James Grimble

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manc'r

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. G. W. (Leeds)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Powell, Sir Francis Shaip

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Hain, Edward

  Purvis, Robert

  Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor)

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Randles, John S.

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G (Mid'x

  Rankin, Sir James

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'nd'nderry

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Ratcliffe, R. F.

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Heath, James (Staffords, N.W.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Bigwood, James

  Holder, Augustus

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Bill, Charles

  Hermon-Hodge, Robt. Trotter

  Renwick, George

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Hoare, Edw Brodie (Hampstead

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  Hope, J. F (Sheffield, Brightside

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Brassey, Albert

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh.

  Round, James

  Bronkfield, Colonel Montagu

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Russell, T. W.

  Butcher, John George

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col, W. (Salop

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Keswick, William

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Cecil, Evelyn, (Aston Manor)

  Knowles, Lees

  Simeon, Sir Harrington

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.)

  Lawrence, William F.

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

  Lawson, John Grant

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Charrington, Spencer

  Lee, Arthur H (Hants. Fareham

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Smith, Hon. W. E. D. (Strand)

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S

  Spear, John Ward

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Long, Col. Charles W (Evesham

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Bristol, S

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Lowe, Francis William

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merth'r'

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Lowther, C. (Cumb, Eskdale)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft)

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsmouth

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Davies, Sir Horatio D. (Chath'm

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Welby, Sir Charles G. E. (Notts.

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Doughty, George

  Malcolm, Ian

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Maxwell, Rt. Hon. Sir H E (Wigt'n

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Maxwell, W J H (Dumfriesshire

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Middlemore, John T.

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Milton, Viscount

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. E (Bath)

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Fergusson, Rt. Hon. Sir J (Manc'r

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Finch, George H.

  More, Robt Jasper (Shropshire)

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Morley, Rt. Hon. John (Montrose

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Morton, Arthur H A. (Deptford

  Younger, William

  Flower, Ernest

  Mount, William Arthur

  Forster, Henry William

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Garfit, William

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bnte

  Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  1396

  1397

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork N.E.

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Allen, Chas. P. (Glouc., Stroud

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  O'Mara, James

  Ambrose, Robert

  Hammond, John

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hardie, J. K. (Merthyr Tydvil

  Partington, Oswald

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Priestley, Arthur

  Bell, Richard

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Chas. Seale-

  Rea, Russell

  Black, Alexander William

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir A. D.

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Blake, Edward

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Reddy, M.

  Boland, John

  Hemphill, Rt Hon. Chas. H.

  Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Boyle James

  Holland, William Henry

  Reid, Sir R. T. (Dumfriessh.)

  Brigg, John

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, W.)

  Rigg, Richard

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Roche, John

  Burt, Thomas

  Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Caine William Sproston

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Caldwell, James

  Joyce, Michael

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Kinloch, Sir John George S.

  Spencer, Rt Hn C R (Northants.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lambert, George

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Langley, Batty

  Sullivan, Donal

  Colville, John

  Layland Barratt, Francis

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Leamy, Edmund

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Crean, Eugene

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

  Cremer, William Randal

  Lough, Thomas

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r

  Crombie, John William

  Lundon, W.

  Thompson, E. C. (Monaghan, N.

  Cullinan, J.

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Tomkinson, James

  Daly, James

  Macnamara, Dr. Thomas J.

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Dalziel, James Henry

  M'Cann, James

  Tully, Jasper

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  M'Crae, George

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  M'Dermott, Patrick

  Wason, Eugene (Clackmannan

  Delany, William

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Weir, James Galloway

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Dillon, John

  Mooney, John J.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Duffy, William J.

  Moss, Samuel

  Whiteley, George (York, W.R.)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Murnaghan, George

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Edwards, Frank

  Murphy, J

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Evans, Sir F. H. (Maidstone)

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Huddersf'd

  Farrell, James Patrick

  O'Brien, Kendal (T'pper'ry Mid

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Field, William

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Sir Thomas Esmonde and Mr. Patrick O'Brien.

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  O'Dowd, John

  Original Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 221; Noes, 130. (Division List No. 147.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bond, Edward

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Brassey, Albert

  Cook, Sir Frederick Lucas

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Austin, Sir John

  Butcher, John George

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Sir Edw. H.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Bain, Col. James Robert

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Cavendish, V. C. W (Derbyshire

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwichr

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Doughty, George

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

  Chamberlain, J Austen (Worc')

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Charrington, Spencer Spencer

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Churchill, Winston Leigh

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Bill, Charles

  Clare, Octavius Leigh

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Lee, A. H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Leveson-Gower, Fredk. N. S.

  Renwick, George

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Fergusson, Rt Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Ridley, Hn. M. W. (Stalybridge-

  Finch, George H.

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Bristol, S.

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lowe, Francis William

  Round, James

  FitzGerald, Sir Robert Penrose-

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Flower, Ernest

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Russell, T. W.

  Forster, Henry William

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Gibbs, Hn A. G. H (City of Lond.

  Lucas, R. J. (Portsmouth)

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Godson, Sir Augustus Frederick

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.

  Gordon, Hn. J. E. (Elgin & Nairn

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rHmlets

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Simeon, Sir Harrington

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Green, Walford D (Wednesbury

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Gretton, John

  Maxwell, Rt Hn Sir H. E (Wigt'n

  Spear, John Ward

  Groves, James Grimble

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfries.

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Middlemore, John T.

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Hain, Edward

  Milton, Viscount

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Hall, Edward Marshall

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merth'r

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  More, Robt. J. (Shropshire)

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Hamilton, Rt Hn. Ld. G (Midd'x

  Morley, Rt. Hon. J. (Montrose

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Hamilton, Marq of (L'donderry

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Valentia, Viscount

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Mount, William Arthur

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Heath, James (Staffords, N.W.)

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Helder, Augustus

  Murray, Rt. Hon. A. G. (Bute

  Webb, Colonel William George

  Henderson, Alexander

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  Hoare, Edw. B. (Hampstead)

  Norman, Henry

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffi'ld, Brightside

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

  Howard, John (Kent, Faversh.

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wilson-Todd, Wm. H. (Yorks.)

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R. (Bath

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Percy, Earl

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Kenyon, Hon. Geo. T. (Denbigh

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Keswick, William

  Purvis, Robert

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Randles, John S.

  Younger, William

  Knowles, Lees

  Rankin, Sir James

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Lawrence, William F.

  Ratcliffe, R. F.

  Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Lawson, John Grant

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  NOES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N. E.

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Allen, Charles P. (Glouc. Stroud

  Crean, Eugene

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Ambrose, Robert

  Cremer, William Randal

  Gilhooly, James

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Crombie, John William

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Cullinan, J.

  Hammond, John

  Bell, Richard

  Daly, James

  Hardie, J. K. (Merthyr Tydvil)

  Black, Alexander William

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Blake, Edward

  Davies, Alfred (Carmarthen)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Boland, John

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Delany, William

  Hemphill, Rt. Hn. Charles H.

  Boyle, James

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.)

  Brigg, John

  Dillon, John

  Holland, William Henry

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  Caine, William Sproston

  Duffy, William J.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Caldwell, James

  Edwards, Frank

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Evans, Sir Francis H (Maidstone

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)-

  Cawley, Frederick

  Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Joyce, Michael

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Field, William

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Colville, John

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Kinloch, Sir John George S.

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Lambert, George

  O'Dowd, John

  Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.

  Langley, Batty

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo, N.)

  Thomas, F. Freeman- (Hastings

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  O'Mara, James

  Thomas, J A (Glamorgan, Gow'r

  Leamy, Edmund

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Thompson, E. C. (Monaghan, N.

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Partington, Oswald

  Tomkinson, James

  Lough, Thomas

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Tully, Jasper

  Lundon, W.

  Price, Robert John

  Ure, Alexander

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Priestley, Arthur

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  M'Crae, George

  Rea, Russell

  Weir, James Galloway

  M'Dermott, Patrick

  Reckitt, Harold James

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Reddy, M.

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Markham, Arthur Basil

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Mooney, John J.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Whiteley, Geooge (York, W. R.)

  Morton, E. J. C. (Devonport)

  Reid, Sir R. Threshie (Dumfries

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Moss, Samuel

  Rigg, Richard

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Murnaghan, George

  Roche, John

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Murphy, J.

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'fi'ld

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Nolan, Col. J. P. (Galway, N.)

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  O'Brien, K. (Tipperary Mid)

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Sir Thomas Esmonde and Mr. Patrick O'Brien.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Spencer, Rt Hn C. R. (Northants

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Sullivan, Donal

  Resolved, "That the Customs duty now charged on tea shall continue to be charged until the first day of August nineteen hundred and two, that is to say, Tea, the pound sixpence."

  CONTINUANCE OF ADDITIONAL DUTIES OF CUSTOMS.
  2. Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the additional duties of customs on tobacco, beer, and spirits imposed by sections two, three, four, and five of the Finance Act, 1900 (includin gany increased duties imposed by section five of that Act), shall continue to be charged until the first day of August nineteen hundred and two."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  MR. DALYasked if he would be in order in moving a reduction of these duties.
  THE CHAIRMAN: If the hon. Gentleman will bring up the form of his Amendment I will decide upon it.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDcontended that the increase put upon tobacco last year should be removed, and that the tax should remain as it was before. He always objected to increases in the duties on these articles because they did not fall proportionately upon the different classes of the community. He thought the extra tax imposed upon imported cigars was altogether too little, and the tax upon ordinary tobacco was a great deal too much. He had not the slightest objection to putting as heavy a tax as they pleased on expensive imported cigars, but he strongly objected to an additional tax being put upon the ordinary tobacco
  1402
  so much used by the masses of the people. It appeared to him that in this matter the Government were acting in accordance with the general policy which they had laid down of making the taxation fall as heavily as possible upon the poorer members of the community and as little as possible upon the richer classes. When he stated last year that a man who could afford to pay 1s., 1s. 6d., or 2s. 6d., for a cigar, which lasted him perhaps for five or ten minutes, should be called upon to pay a much heavier tax, he was jeered at by hon. Members opposite, and be was told that it was a monstrous thing to say that gentlemen paid 1s. or 2s. for a cigar. He had taken the trouble to inquire into the matter. As a member of the Kitchen Committee he had ascertained that the most popular cigar in that House was a 1s. cigar. If they were to impose taxation in order to meet the expenses of the South African war, it should be made to fall upon the gentlemen who could afford to pay 1s., or 1s. 6d., or 2s. for a cigar, and not upon the tobacco used by the working men of the country. He proposed to add at the end of the resolution the following words: "Except that Ireland be exempted from the tax upon tobacco." He thought he was perfectly justified in doing that, because they ought to take every opportunity afforded them of protesting against any imposition of taxation to meet the expenses of the war. He protested against any taxation being put on Ireland for this war, and had he not taken the course which he had pursued upon this resolution he would not have been doing

  1403
  his duty. It appeared to him a most outrageous thing that the Irish people should have to pay more for their tobacco because the Government thought fit to go to war, and plunge the Empire into the disaster and sacrifice which it had made during the last year and a half. It would have been some consolation perhaps if, in reimposing this duty upon tobacco, the Government could say that they had brought the war to a conclusion, that they were in smooth water, and in sight of the day when the tax would be taken off. Nothing of that kind could be put forward at the present time, and they were in a great deal worse position in South Africa now than at the commencement of the war. The hon. Member for Oldham would be able to tell his constituents that every time they smoked a half-ounce of tobacco they would be firing a shot at Mr. Kruger. After reading that speech he came to the conclusion never to take a lump of sugar again, and he would have resolved as long as this additional tax was put upon tobacco to abstain from tobacco also, but he felt that he should not have been equal to it. In October, 1899, he protested against this war, and upon every occasion since he had opposed the fresh taxation which was necessary to carry on the war. Therefore, in moving the resolution to exempt Ireland from this tax, he was only following out consistently the course which he had commenced at the beginning of the war.
  Amendment proposed—
  "At the end of the Question, to add the words 'except that Ireland be exempted from the tax on tobacco.'"—(Mr. William Redmond.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
  MR. DALYthought that after the able manner in which his hon. friend had placed this question before the House the right hon. Gentleman would have no difficulty in accepting this Amendment. He thought his hon. friend had made out a very strong case for increasing the tax on cigars used by the swells. He wished to remind the Committee that the Local Government Board in Ireland were now compelling the boards of guardians to allow tobacco to the inmates, and Ireland would be affected to a considerable extent if the increase in the duty on tobacco was persisted in. He was sure there was no
  1404
  hon. Member on the Opposition side of the House who would have the slightest objection to whatever tax the right hon. Gentleman put upon fancy tobacco and cigars. He respectfully asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to accept the Amendment which had been so ably proposed by the Member for East Clare.
  MR. FIELDsaid it appeared to him that the House was entitled to more information with regard to the way the resolutions had been brought forward. They were simply put from the Chair, and Members were not afforded any opportunity of considering them beforehand, and preparing Amendments. He trusted that some arrangement would be come to by which Members would have an opportunity of considering what Amendments they wished to bring forward. As far as Ireland was concerned he wished to protest against any increase of taxation of any kind upon any pretext whatsoever. Ireland was already overtaxed, and they had already given very good reasons why tins tax should be reduced. He entirely agreed with what the hon. Member for East Clare had said. If any change should be made, he would suggest that the tax on cigars should be increased, and the tax on tobacco decreased. The system of taxation which prevailed in this country was mainly to put taxes on the articles most used by the poor, and decrease the taxes on the articles used by the rich. The Irish people did not desire to contribute anything in support of a war to which they were entirely opposed, and he believed that the burden of taxation about to be imposed by this Budget to meet the expenditure of the war was almost more than the people of the three kingdoms could bear. He thought that it would not be difficult to get a large number of people in Ireland to strike against the payment of Imperial taxation, which was about the only way in which they could bring home to this House the hardship of the grievance which they felt in Ireland.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: As far as I understand the arguments of hon. Members opposite, there are two points taken by them—first, that cigars are not sufficiently taxed; and, secondly, that raw tobacco is taxed too highly. I will remind hon. Gentlemen that two years ago I reduced the duty on raw tobacco

  1405
  by 6d., while I did not reduce the duty on cigars; and when last year the duty on tobacco was increased by 4d. I put 6d. upon the duty on cigars. Therefore pro tanto cigars are more highly taxed in comparison with tobacco than they formerly were. But the objection of hon. Gentlemen goes further. The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has stated his objection to perpetuating the existing taxation in Ireland. It is practically impossible to accede to the wishes of hon. Gentlemen in that respect. We could not have two rates of duty on tobacco in England and Ireland without having separate Customs Houses, and it would involve a total change in our fiscal system. I think that in the end that would be far worse to Ireland than an increase of taxation. I hope we shall now divide upon the motion.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDsaid that the right hon. Gentleman, when this matter was being discussed last year, was good enough to hold out to them the hope that he would take steps to remove the restrictions prohibiting the growing of tobacco in Ireland. He wished to ask whether that statement held good now, and whether the experiments in the growing of tobacco in Ireland, which were being made by the new Board of Agriculture, were likely to be successful.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: If recommendations are made to me by the Board of Agriculture in Ireland, and if it can be done without dislocating the system, I will favourably consider the matter.
  Question put.
  The Committee, divided:—Ayes. 56; Noes, 278. (Division List No. 148.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, William (Cork, N.E.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  O'Dowd, John

  Ambrose, Robert

  Hope, John Deans (Fife, West)

  O'Kelly, Conor (Mayo N.)

  Barry, E. (Cork, S.)

  Jameson, Mayor J. Eustace

  O'Mara, James

  Boland, John

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Shaughnessy, P. J.

  Boyle, James

  Joyce, Michael

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Burke, E. Haviland-

  Kennedy, Patrick James

  Reddy, M.

  Campbell, John (Armagh, S.)

  Leamy, Edmund

  Redmond, John E. (Waterford)

  Cogan, Denis J.

  Lundon, W.

  Redmond, William (Clare)

  Crean, Eugene

  MacDonnell, Dr. Mark A.

  Roche, John

  Cullinan, J.

  M'Dermott, Patrick

  Sullivan, Donal

  Daly, James

  Mooney, John J.

  Taylor, Theodore Cooke

  Delany, William

  Morton, Edw. J. C. (Devonport)

  Thompson, E C (Monaghan, N.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Murnaghan, George

  Tully, Jasper

  Duffy, William J.

  Murphy, J.

  Ure, Alexander

  Farrell, James Patrick

  Nannetti, Joseph P.

  White, Patrick (Meath, North)

  Field, William

  Nolan, Col. John P. (Galway, N.

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, East)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Nolan, Joseph (Louth, South)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  O'Brien, Kendal (T'pp'rary Mid

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary, N.)

  Sir Thomas Esmonde and Mr. Patrick O'Brien.

  Hammond, John

  O'Donnell, T. (Kerry, W.)

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F

  Bousfield, William Robert

  Corbett, T. L. (Down, North)

  Agg-Gardner, James Tynte

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn

  Craig, Robert Hunter

  Agnew, Sir Andrew Noel

  Brassey, Albert

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Allen, Charles P (Glouc., Stroud

  Brigg, John

  Cremer, William Randal

  Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Crombie, John William

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Arkwright, John Stanhope

  Brookfield, Colonel Montagu

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Bullard, Sir Harry

  Davies, Sir Horatio D (Chatham

  Asquith, Rt Hn. Herbert Henry

  Butcher, John George

  Dewar, John A. (Inverness-sh.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Caldwell, James

  Dickinson, Robert Edmond

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Cautley, Henry Strother

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Bain, Colonel James Robert

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Digby, John K. D. Wingfield-

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbys.

  Dimsdale, Sir Joseph Cockfield

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W (Leeds

  Cawley, Frederick

  Doughty, George

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Aston Manor)

  Doxford, Sir William Theodore

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

  Duncan, J. Hastings

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.

  Durning-Lawrence, Sir Edwin

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r

  Dyke, Rt. Hn. Sir William Hart

  Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Edwards, Frank

  Bell, Richard

  Charrington, Spencer

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Churchill, Winston Spencer

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J (Manc'r

  Bill, Charles

  Cohen, Benjamin Louis

  Finch, George H.

  Black, Alexander William

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Colville, John

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  Bolton, Thomas Dolling

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Bond, Edward

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Forster, Henry William

  Fuller, J. M. F.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond.

  Lucas, Col. Francis (Lowestoft

  Russell, T. W.

  Gladstone, Rt. Hn Herbert John

  Lucas, Reginald J. (Portsm'th

  Sackville, Col. S. G. Stopford-

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Sadler, Col. Samuel Alexander

  Godson, Sir Augustus Fredk.

  MacIver, David (Liverpool)

  Samuel, S. M. (Whitechapel)

  Gordon, Hn. J. E (Elgin & Nairn)

  Maconochie, A. W.

  Scott, Sir S (Marylebone, W.)

  Gordon, Maj Evans- (T'rH'ml's

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

  M'Arthur, William (Cornwall

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Goschen, Hon. George Joachim

  M'Calmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.

  Shipman, Dr. John G.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  M'Crae, George

  Simeon, Sir Harrington

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry

  M'Killop, James (Stirlingshire

  Sinclair, Capt. John (Forfarsh.

  Greene, Henry D. (Shrewsbury)

  Majendie, James A. H.

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Greene, W. Raymond- (Cambs.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Smith, Abel H. (Hertford, East)

  Gretton, John

  Mansfield, Horace Rendall

  Smith, James Parker (Lanarks.

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Makham, Arthur Basil

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

  Martin, Richard Biddulph

  Smith, Hon. W. F D. (Strand)

  Groves, James Grimble

  Maxwell, W. J. H. (Dumfriessh.

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Guest, Hon. Ivor Churchill

  Melville, Beresford Valentine

  Soares, Ernest J.

  Gurdon, Sir W. Brampton

  Middlemore, John T.

  Spear, John Ward

  Hain, Edward

  Milton, Viscount

  Spencer, Rt Hn C R. (Northants)

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Molesworth, Sir Lewis

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk

  Hambro, Charles Eric

  Montagu, G. (Huntingdon)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Hamilton, Rt Hn Lord G. (Mid'x

  Montagu, Hon. J. S. (Hants.)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

  Hamilton, Marq. of (L'donderry

  More, Robt. Jasper (Shropsh.

  Strachey, Edward

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

  Morgan, D. J. (Walthamstow)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Harmsworth, R. Leicester

  Morris, Hon. Martin Henry F.

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  Harris, Frederick Leverton

  Morrison, James Archibald

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (O'xf'd Univ

  Haslam, Sir Alfred S.

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Thomas, David Alfred (Merth'r

  Hay, Hon. Claude George

  Moss, Samuel

  Thomas, F Freeman- (Hastings

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

  Mount, William Arthur

  Thomas, J A (Glamorg'n, Gow'r

  Hayter, Rt. Hon. Sir Arthur D.

  Mowbray, Sir Robert Gray C.

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Heath, James (Staffords., N.W.

  Murray, Rt Hn A Graham (Bute

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Helder, Augustus

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Tomkinson, James

  Helme, Norval Watson

  Nicol, Bonald Ninian

  Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

  Norman, Henry

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Higginbottom, S. W.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Valentia, Vicount

  Hoare, Sir Samuel (Norwich)

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Vincent, Sir Edgar (Exeter)

  Hobhouse, C. E. H. (Bristol, E.

  Palmer, Walter (Salisbury)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Hope, J. F. (Sheffield, Brights'de

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Warde, Colonel C. E.

  Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

  Partington, Oswald

  Wason, John Cathcart (Orkney

  Howard, J. (Kent, Faversham

  Peel, Hn. Wm. Robt. Wellesley

  Webb, Colonel Willam George

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Pemberton, John S. G.

  White, George (Norfolk)

  Johnston, William (Belfast)

  Pierpoint Robert

  White, Luke (York, E. R.)

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Plummer, Walter R.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-u.-Lyne)

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Whitley, J. H. (Halifax)

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Price, Robert John

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Kenyon, Hon. G. T. (Denbigh

  Priestley, Arthur

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Kenyon-Slaney, Col. W. (Salop.

  Purvis, Robert

  Williams, Osmond (Merioneth)

  Keswick, William

  Randles, John S.

  Willox, Sir John Archibald

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Rankin, Sir James

  Wilson, A. Stanley (York, E. R.)

  Knowles, Lees

  Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Lambert, George

  Ratcliffe, R. F.

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Langley, Batty

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Wilson, John (Glasgow)

  Law, Andrew Bonar

  Reid, James (Greenock)

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R (Bath

  Lawrence, William F.

  Remnant, James Farquharson

  Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'sfi'd

  Lawson, John Grant

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

  Layland-Barratt, Francis

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Wrightson, Sir Thomas

  Lee, A H. (Hants., Fareham)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Wylie, Alexander

  Legge, Col. Hon. Heneage

  Ridley, Hon. M. W (Stalybridge

  Wyndham, Rt. Hon. George

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Rigg, Richard

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  Leveson-Gower, Frederick N. S.

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Younger, William

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

  Roe, Sir Thomas

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Bristol, S.

  Rolleston, Sir John F. L.

  Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Lowe, Francis William

  Ropner, Colonel Robert

  Lowther, C. (Cumb., Eskdale)

  Round, James

  Question put, and agreed to.

  Original Question again proposed.
  MAJOR JAMESONsaid his hon. friend had spoken of some of the taxation not being according to the spirit of the constitution. He was going to say a few words on a spirit that was ruinous to the constitution. He had on former occasions called the
  1408
  attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the huge amount of spirits that were brought into this country year by year. He had shown the right hon. Gentleman how they were manufactured; he had even shown him the patents for producing spirits which were most deleterious to the health of the

  1409
  people. They were imported year by year in increasing quantities. The figures for the last three years for which he had been able to obtain statistics were: 1898, 1,611,060 gallons; 1897, 1,679,831 gallons; and 1896, 1,609,428 gallons. As a matter of fact, he believed that of the whole
  1,679,831 gallons only 8,000 were made into methylated spirits. The remainder went into consumption as Scotch and Irish whisky. It was putting a
  premium on fraud to allow that spirit to come into this country. He had written to the right hon. Gentleman asking him to allow a different coloured permit to be given, so that the Government might be able to trace how this spirit was used; but the right hon. Gentleman did not see it in the same way. Perhaps he thought that probably it would reduce the sale of that spirit, and that the taxes would suffer. He was perfectly sure there would be an enormous reduction in the death rate if that spirit was not allowed to be sold. He hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give some indication that he would put a prohibitive tax on this spirit, a great part of which was made in Germany out of shavings and sawdust, with the help of sulphuric acid. Even for the benefit of taxation he would decline to allow the health of the country to be ruined by allowing that spirit to be put into circulation. A spirit not quite so bad as this, but still not good, was made in Scotland from molasses, which was to be charged the additional sugar duty. Therefore the foreign spirit would be more favoured than the Scotch spirit, and the right hon. Gentleman would be knocking an industry out in this country in favour of the Germans, the Danish, the Swedes, and the Russians. He asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer to put an extra tax on this foreign spirit, and the similar spirit made from molasses would not be interfered with. Look how the Germans taxed all foreign wines and spirits—four times the amount that we did. It was far better that the tax should come out of the pockets of foreigners than out of our own. He really hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would take those two points into his serious consideration.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: The hon. Member has communicated with me on this subject several times. I may mention
  1410
  that I do not think that his estimate of the amount of foreign spirit mixed with our home production in the way he describes is correct. The amount
  imported is small compared with the total amount of spirits produced in this country, and is used, not for the purposes of methylated spirit, but in various manufactures. Besides, if the mixture takes place at all, it takes place out of bond, where the Inland Revenue cannot follow it. What the hon. Member desires is that this spirit coming from abroad should be more heavily taxed. This resolution taxes it more heavily than before. The hon. Member says that the duty on molasses will interfere with the home manufacture. I think he is mistaken. The molasses will be sent in bond to the distillers, and will not pay duty, and the distillers will be no more heavily taxed than at present. I have been in communication with them, and I have no doubt we will be able to make arrangements which will be entirely satisfactory as to their position in the future.
  MAJOR JAMESONsaid that the right hon. Gentleman insisted that there was not a large quantity of the foreign spirit brought into consumption, that the Excise could not account for it, and that it was not mixed in bond. He maintained that the mixing was done in bond, and what was not used for mixing with whisky was used for fortifying wine. If the light hon. Gentleman said he was wrong, why did he not grant a different coloured permit, so that they might be able to know how that foreign spirit was used, and where it was used. He was sure the Chancellor of the Exchequer was anxious that this fraud should not be perpetrated; and if he gave a different coloured permit, the right hon. Gentleman would be able to prove that he was wrong, or to prove that more than three-fourths of that large amount of foreign spirit went into consumption. (Laughter.) It might not matter to those hon. Gentlemen who laughed, who probably drank it, but they would, before long, be paying death duties.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: If the hon. and gallant Member can prove to me that a different coloured permit will enable us to trace this deleterious spirit better than we can at present, then I quite agree that it should be given. But he has not been able to prove that yet.

  1411
  However, I shall be glad to receive any further information on the subject.
  MAJOR JAMESONthanked the right hon. Gentleman for his courtesy.
  MR. FLYNNsaid if the right hon. Gentleman made inquiry he would find that large quantities of this spirit came from Hamburg, and could be traced to Scotland and Ireland, where it was mixed with Highland malt whisky and Irish whisky, and afterwards exported as pure Highland and Irish whisky. There could be no doubt that a large amount of the deplorable intoxication which followed the use of this so-called malt whisky was owing to the large importation of this deleterious spirit. It was made from potatoes, damaged grain, rice, and other inferior products, and the result was that it was most injurious to the health of those who consumed it. He would remind the right hon. Gentleman of the fact that four or five years ago a report was issued by the whisky trade in Belfast in which it was pointed out that a sum of close upon a million sterling was paid on imported spirit. What did that mean? It meant that a vast portion of it was mixed with some kind of homo spirits in Belfast and neighbourhood. Some of it was sold in Ireland, but the rest was exported to this country, and sold by the retailers as Irish whisky, and that was a grievance to the Irish distillers. It was deadly in its effects in this country. A large amount of the intoxication and semi-lunacy in this country was owing to the free manner in which Irish whisky was mixed with this foreign, spirit. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would instruct the Customs and Excise to look into the matter, and formulate a scheme which would have the effect of modifying the deplorable results which, from every point of view, followed the consumption of these mixtures.
  Resolved, That the additional duties of Customs on tobacco, beer, and spirits imposed by sections two, three, four and five of the Finance Act, 1900 (including any increased duties imposed by Section 5 of that Act), shall continue to be charged until the first day of August, nineteen hundred and two.

  CONTINUANCE OF ADDITIONAL DUTY OF EXCISE ON BEER.
  3. Motion made, and Amendment proposed—"That the additional duties
  1412
  of Excise on beer imposed by Section 6 of the Finance Act, 1900, shall continue to be charged until the first day of August nineteen hundred and two."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  MR. JOHN REDMONDsaid there was no disposition on the Irish Benches to raise any opposition, from a purely Irish point of view, to the increased duty on beer. But there was one resolution which affected Ireland, which they desired seriously to discuss, and that was the tax on spirits. The addition to that tax last year amounted to something like a million, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that it was a temporary impost, and would, only last one year. It was now proposed to renew the whisky tax, which hon. Members from Ireland believed pressed unfairly on that country, and he would suggest that the discussion on the tax should be postponed until Monday, and that the remaining resolutions should be passed to-night.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACHsaid that that was a fair proposal on the part of the hon. Member. If the Committee would be good enough to pass the other resolutions he thought the spirit resolution might be postponed until Monday.

  GLUCOSE AND SACCHARIN (EXCISE).
  4. Resolved, "That there shall be charged on and after the first day of July, nineteen hundred and one, on glucose and saccharin (including substances of a like nature or use). Excise duties equivalent to the Customs duties charged on those articles.
  And that there shall be charged, on and after the same date, on a licence to be taken out annually by the manufacturer of glucose, invert sugar, or saccharin, an Excise duty of one pound."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

  AMENDMENT OF LAW.
  5. Resolved, "That it is expedient to prolong the term of certain annuities and to amend the law relating to the National Debt, the Customs, and the Inland Revenue."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
  Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again this day.
  Adjourned at twenty minutes before One of the clock.

LORD DUNSANY.
Petition of Edward John Moreton Drax, Baron of Dunsany, in the Peerage of Ireland, claiming a right to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland; read, and referred to the Lord Chancellor to consider and report thereupon to the House.
The Lord Poltimore took the Oath.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  SHEFFIELD CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee with Amendments.
  SUTTON-IN-ASHFIELD URBAN DISTRICT (WATER) BILL [H.L.]
  Reported with Amendments.
  BIDEFORD AND CLOVELLY RAILWAY (ABANDONMENT) BILL [H.L.]
  Read 2a.
OAKHAM WATER BILL [H.L.]
  KING'S NORTON AND NORTHFIELD URBAN DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
WATFORD AND DISTRICT TRAMWAYS BILL [H.L.]
Standing Order No. 92, considered (according to order) and dispensed with, with respect to a petition of Watford Urban District Council: Leave given to present the said petition.
BURY CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL.
  MIDLAND RAILWAY BILL.
    TAFF VALE RAILWAY BILL.
    Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.

EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (ACTON) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Board of Education under
1254
the Elementary Education Acts, 1870 to 1900, to enable the school board for Acton to put in force the Lands Clauses Act, was presented by the Lord Belper (for the Lord President [D. Devonshire]); read 1a; and to be printed. (No. 40.)

LONDON UNDERGROUND RAILWAYS.
Message from the Commons that they have appointed a Select Committee to consist of five members to join with the Select Committee appointed by this House, as mentioned in their Lordships' Message of the 26th of March last.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACT, 1887 (EVICTION NOTICES).
  Return of the number of eviction notices filed during the Quarter ended 31st March, 1901.

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  1. Code of Regulations for Continuation Classes providing further instruction for those who have left school.
  2. Memorandum on the Code of Regulations for Continuation Classes.
  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

NEW BILL.
  MARRIAGES LEGALISATION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill for legalising marriages heretofore solemnised in certain churches and places was presented by the Lord Belper; read 1a; to be printed and to be read 2a on Thursday next. (No. 39.).

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
Standing Order No. XXXIX. to be considered to-morrow, in order to its being suspended for that day's sitting.
House adjourned at twenty-five minutes before Five of the clock till to-morrow, half-past Ten of the clock.