Sitting of 14 May 1900

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS (STANDING ORDERS APPLICABLE THERETO COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, the Standing Orders which are applicable thereto have been complied with, viz.:—
  Gas Provisional Order (No. 3) Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time To-morrow.

  PRIVATE BILL PETITIONS (STANDING ORDERS NOT COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of
  20
  Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petitions for the following Bills, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, viz.:—
  Costa Rica Railway Company, Limited.
  Cumberland County Council (Bridges).
  Ordered, That the Reports be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

  BEDFORD GAS BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed.
  BRADFORD CORPORATION BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed. [New Title.]
IMSCHENETZKY'S URALITE PATENT BILL [Lords].
  KINGSTON-UPON-THAMES CORPORATION BILL [Lords],
  Read the third time, and passed, without amendment.
NEWPORT (MONMOUTHSHIRE) GAS BILL [Lords].

  VALE OF RHEIDOL LIGHT RAILWAY BILL.
  WOODBRIDGE DISTRICT WATER BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed, with Amendments.

  CITY OF LONDON (VARIOUS POWERS) BILL.
  As amended, considered; two Clauses added; Amendments made; Bill to be read the third time.
  LIVERPOOL CORPORATION BILL, WOLVERHAMPTON GAS BILL.
  As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  BLACKPOOL, ST. ANNE'S, AND LYTHAM TRAMWAYS BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed.
HEMEL HEMPSTEAD CORPORATION (WATER) BILL [Lords].
  IPSWICH CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL [Lords].
  Read a second time, and committed.
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed.

METROPOLITAN DISTRICT RAILWAY BILL.

  LONDON AND NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY BILL.
  LONDON AND NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY (WALKS) BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments. Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  MESSAGE EROM THE LORDS.
  That they have agreed to the Grantham Gas Bill, with Amendments.
  That they have passed a Bill intituled, "An Act to empower the London County Council to make a tunnel or subway under the River Thames between Rotherhithe and Ratcliff and approaches thereto; and for other purposes connected therewith." Rotherhithe and Ratcliff Tunnel Bill [Lords].
  Also a Bill intituled, "An Act to confer further powers upon the Milford Docks Company; and for other purposes." Mil-ford Docks Bill [Lords].
  Also a Bill intituled, "An Act to remove doubts as to the investment of moneys belonging to the life fund of the Commercial Union Assurance Company, Limited, in the name of the company; and for other purposes." Commercial Union Assurance Company Bill [Lords].
  And also a Bill intituled, "An Act to confer upon the Neath Harbour Commissioners further powers for the improvement of the Harbour; to reduce and regulate the indebtedness and borrowing powers of the Commissioners; and for other purposes. "Neath Harbour Bill [Lords].

ROTHERHITHE AND RATCLIFF TUNNEL BILL [Lords].

  MILFORD DOCKS BILL [Lords].
  COMMERCIAL UNION ASSURANCE COMPANY BILL [Lords].
  NEATH HARBOUR BILL [Lords].
  Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.

PETITIONS.
  LUNACY BILL.
  Petitions for alteration, from Dews-bury; Hemel Hempstead; and Isle of Thanet; to lie upon the Table.
  PETTY CUSTOMS ABOLITION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions against, from Perth; and Brechin; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL.
  Petition from Gorleston, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN (No. 2) BILL.
  Petitions in favour, from Mickleton; North Essex; Barry; York; Tiptree; Headingley; Manchester; North London; Barnard Castle; Newport; Penarth; Cardiff (two); Exeter; Stockton-on-Tees; Sheffield (four); Yeovil; Thornaby-on-Tees; Lampeter Pontstephen; and Clap-ham Road; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN (No. 2) BILL AND SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Two Petitions from Durham, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS TO CHILDREN (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour, from Gartshorne; Kinross; Dunfermline; St. Monans; Penpont; Thurso; and Innerleithen; to lie upon the Table.
  SOLDIERS AND SAILORS ON ACTIVE SERVICE.
  Petition from Hemel Hempstead, for legislation; to lie upon the Table.
  SUNDAY CLOSING (MONMOUTHSHIRE) BILL.
  Petitions in favour, from North London; Gorleston; Bristol; Exeter; Barnard Castle; and Cotham; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  INTERMEDIATE EDUCA TI ON (IRELAND).
  Copy presented, of Report of the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland

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  for the year 1899 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

  NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS' (IRELAND) PENSION FUND.
  Annual Accounts presented, of Receipts and Payments for the period to 31st December, 1899 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
  IMPERIAL DEFENCE ACT, 1888.
  Account presented, of all Moneys issued from the Consolidated Fund, of Sums borrowed, and of Transactions in relation to Sums so borrowed, up to 31st March, 1900, in pursuance of the Act [by Act]; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 174.]
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) (GENERAL REPORTS).
  Copy presented, of General Report by the Chief Inspector of the Southern Division of Scotland for the year 1899 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  COLONIES (COLONIAL ACTS, ROYAL ASSENT).
  Address for "Return of the names of Bills, since the date covered by the House of Lords Return, No. 196, of 1894, passed by both Houses of the Legislature in Colonies possessing responsible government, to which Her Majesty has not given Her Assent, and of Bills so passed with a Suspending Clause, under which the Act does not come into operation until proclaimed, in respect of which no such Proclamation has been made."—(Sir Charles Dilke.)

  RAILWAYS (ACCIDENTS TO RAILWAY SERVANTS OTHER THAN TRAIN ACCIDENTS).
  Return ordered, "showing, for each year from 1894 to 1899 inclusive, (1) the number of Railway Servants killed by accidents in which the movement of vehicles used exclusively on Railways was concerned; and (2) the number of instances in which such fatal accidents to Railway Servants have been investigated by Inspectors of the Board of Trade, in the following form:—

  1.

  2.

  Year.

  Number of Railway Servants killed.

  Number of such fatal accidents investigated by Inspectors of the Board of Trade.

  (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper
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  No. 166, of Session 1894)."—(Mr. Channing.)

QUESTIONS.

  SOUTH AFRICAN WAR—STRATEGY AND TACTICS—LESSONS OF THE WAR.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War what steps Lord Lansdowne proposes to take to ensure that the lessons of the war, as much in peace preparation as in strategy and tactics, shall not be lost at the War Office in either the administration or training of Her Majesty's Army.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. WYNDHAM,): I do not know that the war in South Africa has revealed any new principle of strategy; but it has certainly suggested many points of interest in respect of tactical movements, and the matter is not being lost sight of by the military authorities.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: Does the hon. Gentleman propose to appoint a Committee to receive evidence upon it; or in what way does he propose to deal with it?
  MR. WYNDHAM: To deal with the new and important considerations which have arisen out of the tactical movements is a matter for the Commander-in-Chief. The moment has not yet come, in the opinion of the Commander-in-Chief, for making any fundamental change in tactical instruction. I doubt whether a Committee is needed. The War Office will have reports of the war from time to time, and on those it will act.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Will the question of revising and rewriting despatches also be taken into consideration?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  ALLEGED BOER TREACHERY.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: Has any official information reached the War Office with reference to the shooting of native women and children by the Boers, or the shooting at British cavalry under cover of the white flag?
  MR. WYNDHAM: A report from Colonel Baden-Powell on the shooting of native women and children, dated 19th April, was published in the newspapers on the 4th instant. A telegram from Lord Roberts, dated yesterday, on the capture of British cavalry through the treacherous use of the white flag, is being published this afternoon.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: In view of the ignorance of the War Office, may we take it for granted that the report of the shooting of native women and children is not true?
  [No answer was returned.]

  MAFEKING—MEASURES FOR RELIEF.
  SIR J. LENG: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if, without divulging the plans of the Commander-in-Chief, he can make any statement which will mitigate the anxiety of many whose friends have been so long beleaguered and have suffered so many privations and hardships in Mafeking.
  MR. WYNDHAM: We hope, most earnestly, that Mafeking will shortly be relieved. But for the present we think it better to give no information as to Lord Roberts's plans.

  RENEWAL OF CLOTHING FOR THE TROOPS.
  SIR CHARLES CAMERON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether the troops serving in South Africa have to replace clothes worn out in campaigning at their own expense, or whether it is replaced at the expense of the Government.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Clothing worn out in campaigning is replaced at Government expense.

  POSTAGE RATES ON LETTERS FROM TROOPS AT THE FRONT.
  MR. JEFFREYS: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that letters sent by soldiers serving with the Imperial troops in the Orange Free State and stamped with 1d. for the ½ oz. have been surcharged 3d. on delivery in England, and whether he can arrange at once that all letters either forwarded to or sent by our
  26
  soldiers in the Orange Free State or the Transvaal can be forwarded for 1d. the ½ oz., in conformity with the postal regulations of our own South African Colonies.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HANBURY,): The only soldiers' letters from the Orange Free State which have been charged in the manner described reached this country in the colonial mail from Cape Town, and bore no indication whatever of their having been sent by soldiers. They were properly treated as what they appeared to be—ordinary letters from the Orange Free State; but in cases in which they were subsequently shown to be from soldiers the charges have been refunded. All letters from the troops in South Africa prepaid at the rate of 1d. per ½ oz. and received in the mails from the Army Post Office are delivered in this country without surcharge; and similarly, all letters for the troops prepaid at that rate are sent forward for delivery free of charge.
  MR. JEFFREYS: Is the converse true? Will letters sent to the Orange Free State via the Transvaal be delivered to the troops for 1d.?
  MR. HANBURY: Certainly, if they are sent prepaid.

  MILITIA—OFFICERS VOLUNTEERING BEFORE EMBODIMENT.
  SIR GEORGE FARDELL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War if officers of the Militia who volunteered for duty with the regular troops prior to the embodiment of the Militia battalions to which such officers belonged, and who continue to do duty with the Regular troops after their own Militia battalions were embodied, are to be considered as attached to and doing duty with their respective Militia battalions, and consequently as embodied.
  MR. WYNDHAM: All Militia units are now embodied; all Militia officers are therefore with their units, except those seconded for special service.

  VOLUNTEER SERGEANT-MAJORS AND INSTRUCTORS.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for

  27
  War if, having regard to the increased responsibilities of sergeant - majors of Volunteer corps, the Secretary of State will accord to them the warrant rank held by their colleagues in the Line and the Militia; and if, bearing in mind the increased strength of regiments, the Secretary of State will consider the advisability of increasing the sergeant-instructors in the proportion of at least one sergeant-instructor to every 300 men, and also of appointing a paid quartermaster in corps of 1,000 strong.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The duties performed by sergeant-majors of Volunteers are not held to justify the grant of warrant rank. The suggestions made in the second paragraph of the question will receive consideration.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I shall call attention to this question on the first opportunity.

  ROYAL MILITARY COLLEGE, SANDHURST—SIR E. MARKHAM.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether he can state if the appointment of Sir Edwin Markham as Governor of the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, who is the first artillery officer ever appointed as head of a school of cavalry and infantry, and whose tenure of office as Director General of Ordnance had not expired by eighteen months when he received his present appointment, has now been extended for a term of three years; and whether there are any regulations as to the Assistant Commandant having passed the Staff College.
  MR. WYNDHAM: Under Article 104 of the Pay Warrant, appointments of a semi-military or technical nature may be held by an officer after he is placed on the retired list for the remainder of the term of his appointment. Sir Edwin Markham will accordingly be retained as Governor until the end of 1903. In reply to the second paragraph, there are no regulations to that effect.

  THE DEFENCES OF LONDON.
  MAJOR RASCH: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War how many of the fortified positions stated by the Secretary of State for War
  28
  in 1889 to be necessary for the defence of London, and for the purpose of magazines, are fully supplied with the material of war, and what was the original number of these positions originally prepared by Mr. Stanhope.
  MR. WYNDHAM: It is not considered expedient to give the information for which the hon. and gallant Member asks.

  RIFLE RANGES IN WARWICKSHIRE.
  COLONEL MILWARD: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to the gift of the Warwickshire County Council—namely, £600—towards the improvement of the shooting range for the Militia, Yeomanry, and Volunteers in Warwick Old Park, and whether, if other county councils took a similar course, it would be possible to re-open many ranges that have been recently closed; and whether his attention has also been called to the statement of the chairman of the county council (Mr. J. Stratford Dugdale, Q.C.), in recommending this grant, that it is desirable that further statutory powers should be conferred upon county councils with reference to the equipment and maintenance of rifle ranges in counties.
  MR. WYNDHAM: The attention of the Secretary of State has been drawn to the generous offer of the Warwickshire County Council. Co-operation of a similar kind by county councils and other local bodies would be of the highest value for the acquisition and improvement of ranges. The question of conferring further statutory powers on county councils in the direction mentioned is under the consideration of the Government, and I hope soon to be able to make an announcement on the subject.

  INDIAN FAMINE—STATISTICS.
  SIR MANCHERJEE BHOWNAGGREE (Bothnal Green, N.E.): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India what is the aggregate number, according to the last official return, of men as well as of the cattle lost through the effects of the present famine in India.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord G. HAMILTON,): I have received no official return

  29
  of the number of human lives or of cattle lost through the effects of the present famine in India; nor would it be desirable, under existing circumstances, to call upon the Government of India for such statistics. When the famine is over it may probably be possible to form an estimate of the various forms of loss, but it cannot be more than an estimate.

  INDIAN FAMINE—ADVANCES TO RYOTS.
  SIR MANCHEEJEE BHOWNAGGREE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether any reply has been received to the communication addressed by him to the Government of India with the view of supplementing the amounts subscribed to the Mansion House and other voluntary famine funds by a national grant, so as to place at the disposal of that Government an adequate sum for the purpose of making advances to the ryots and for supplying them with cattle, seeds, implements, and other necessaries for carrying on agricultural operations with the next rainfall.
  LORD G. HAMILTON: The Government of India intend to provide a large sum, by way of supplement to what will be available from the various charitable funds, for supplying the ryots in the famine districts with cattle, seeds, and other necessaries for carrying on agricultural operations. The details of the scheme are not yet completely settled, but the assistance to be given to the cultivators will probably take the form of advances without interest, repayable by instalments not to begin for a year from the present time, and with power to the local Governments to make large remissions, thus converting the advances, or a portion of them, into gifts, as circumstances may require.

  TNDIAN FAMINE—PROPOSED PARLIAMENTARY GRANT.
  MR. MACLEAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he has now informed the Viceroy that Her Majesty's Government is willing to supplement the grants made for famine relief by the Government of India.
  LORD G. HAMILTON: The statement I have made to the Viceroy is the same that I have made to the House—namely, that if the Government of India found
  30
  that the financial resources at their disposal were insufficient to enable them to adequately discharge the obligations they have undertaken for the relief of distress caused by famine they could rely upon help from the Imperial Government.

  IMPORTS OF SUGAR INTO INDIA.
  MR. MACLEAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he can now give the complete Returns of the importation of sugar into India for the financial year 1899–1900 as compared with the figures for the five years immediately preceding, specifying the quantities of beet and cane sugar respectively, and the shipments from colonial and from foreign ports.
  LORD G. HAMILTON: No, Sir; the Indian Trade Returns for March, 1900, have not yet reached mo. I expect to receive them about the end of the present month.

  ASHANTI—DISTURBANCES AT COOMASSIE.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BAETLETT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give the House any information as to the arrival of British reinforcements at Coomassic, and any further intelligence regarding the rising in Ashanti.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.): I have received no further news from Coomassie of later date than that which was published last Monday (the 7th instant); but there is no reason to think that the garrison is in any danger of being overpowered, and I hope that the outbreak will be suppressed as soon as the further reinforcements now on the way arrive.

  ASHANTI-ARMS IN POSSESSION OF THE NATIVES.
  MR. HEDDEEWICK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for Colonies whether his attention has been called to the report that the natives of Ashanti who have risen against us have been found to be armed with modern weapons of precision; and whether, if this report be well founded, he will cause inquiries to be made into the sources from which these weapons have been supplied.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The Governor reported OIL the 30th of April that in the fighting near Coomassie several Ashantis had arms of precision. I have no reason to believe that any large number of Ashantis are armed with "modern weapons of precision" or even "arms of precision," which term is generally used in West Africa to include all arms except flint-lock unrifled muskets.

  TARQUAH-COOMASSIE RAILWAY.
  MR. HOLLAND: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the arrangements entered into with the Ashanti Goldfields and Ashanti Consols, in connection with the extension of the Tarquah Railway, preclude the construction of any other line from the coast to Coomassie.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No; but it is not probable that any line would be sanctioned which would compete with the traffic of the Tarquah-Coomassie Railway.
  MR. BUCHANAN: Will the agreement be laid on the Table and circulated?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no objection to that at all.
  MR. BUCHANAN: Will any public money be spent for guarantee purposes?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The hon. Member had better wait till the Papers are laid.

  SOUTH AFRICA-AUSTRALIA CABLE.
  MR. HOGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the difficulties that arose in connection with the proposal of the Eastern Extension Company to lay a cable from South Africa to Australia have now been adjusted; and whether the opposition of the Imperial and Colonial Governments concerned in the construction of the Pacific cable has been withdrawn; and, if so, what is the nature of the compromise that has been arrived at.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I have no information that any final arrangement has yet been reached.

  WEST AUSTRALIAN MINERS' GRIEVANCES.
  MR. M'GHEE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been directed to the manifesto of the mining immigrants of West Australia invoking the aid of their fellow citizens of the British Empire against the treatment to which they are subjected by the old agricultural population of the country—namely, taxation without representation, the enforcement of railway traffic by special lines at rates specially imposed, in differential tariffs to Perth and Fremantle; and what steps, if any, the Government propose to take in the matter.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: My attention has been called to the manifesto to which the hon. Member refers, and I have also received the comments on it of the Prime Minister for Western Australia. These comments will, I understand, be made public shortly, and when they are available it will be seen that almost all the statements are directly challenged. In these circumstances, and as there is now a prospect that Western Australia may decide to become a part of the Commonwealth, the time has not arrived for coming to a final decision on this matter.

  NIGERIA—RECENT FIGHTING.
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies when Papers will be circulated giving official account of the recent fighting in Nigeria; and whether such Papers will contain an estimate of the natives killed and wounded and villages burned, and a statement of the objects of the various military expeditions, and the causes to which the resistance of the natives is attributed.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I have not received the official report of the recent fighting in Northern Nigeria, but I have no doubt that it will contain information on the points referred to, and I do not anticipate that there will be any objection to giving such information to the House.

  NEW SOUTH WALES DEATH DUTIES.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: On behalf of the hon. Member for Suffolk, Lowestoft Division, I beg to ask the

  33
  Secretary of State for the Colonies whether, seeing that the Companies Death Duties Act of 1899 (New South Wales) affects the interests of British companies carrying on the business of mining, pastoral, or agricultural products or timber getting, in the colony of New South Wales, and particularly as on the death of any shareholder wherever resident or domiciled an ad valorem duty varying from 2 per cent. to 10 per cent. is leviable by the New South Wales Government, not upon the estate of the deceased shareholder but upon the property of the company, he proposes, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, to make any representations to the New South Wales Government with a view to the repeal of the Act.
  Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I am informed that representations on the subject of this legislation are being made by those interested through the Agent General for New South Wales, and I have no doubt they will be carefully considered by the Colonial Government.

  PAYMENTS TO CROWN AGENTS.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies is he aware that the reserve fund accumulated by the Crown Agents for the Colonies amounted on 31st March, 1899 to £33,307 2s. 5d.; can he state what the amount of this reserve fund was on 31st March, 1900; are payments amounting to some £3,000 a year made out of this fund in respect of life insurance policies for the advantage of the officials employed in the Crown Agents' offices; and if so, is any such payment made in respect of the Crown Agents themselves; and seeing that in 1870 Her Majesty's Government decided that the accounts of the Crown Agents should cease to be audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General excepting in the case of colonies receiving grants in aid of their local revenues, can he state whether these accounts are still excluded from audit by the Comptroller and Auditor General, and if not, what change in that respect has been made since 1870.
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The figures quoted by the hon. Member give not the amount of the reserve fund on 31st March, 1899, but the uninvested cash balance then standing to its credit. The
  34
  amount of the fund at 31st March, 1900, taking into account both the nominal value of the investment and the credit balance, was £341,527. Payments amounting to £3,179 were made out of this fund in 1899 on account of life insurance for the benefit of the officials in the Crown Agents' office—about thirty in number —including the Crown Agents. Of this amount £740 was paid by the individuals themselves. The accounts of of the Crown Agents always have been, and still are, audited by the Comptroller and Auditor General. What was discontinued in 1870 was the audit in this country of the separate accounts as between the Crown Agents and certain colonies.

  UGANDA RAILWAY EXPENDITURE ACCOUNTS.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer can he explain why the Treasury, under the exercise of its statutory powers, has required the accounts of the Uganda Railway expenditure to be rendered in a form which aggregates the expenditure in large amounts under nine general heads without details; whether the head of administration, total to 31st March, 1899, £163,448, embraces any item for commission paid to Crown Agents for the Colonies on stores ordered by them; and if so, what is the amount of that item; will he explain what is meant by the head of "Unallocated Expenditure, total to 31st March, 1899, £290,708," and in what sense is it unallocated; and can he give a general notion of how this unallocated expenditure is composed; and will he take steps to secure that in future the Treasury will require the accounts to be rendered in a form which will afford more complete information to this House.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,): I think that the form of account is in conformity with the requirements of the Act, and gives the necessary information to Parliament. It must be remembered that the Comptroller and Auditor General has before him detailed items and vouchers for every penny of expenditure under the several heads— and also that the annual account has been supplemented by further information to Parliament, notably in Sir Guilford Moles-worth's Report, and in the Paper C. 9333

  35
  of 1899. I see no reason for altering the form. I am not responsible for the figures which are given in the account; but, to save trouble, I may say, with regard to the second and third paragraphs of the hon. Member's question, that I am informed that out of the total of £163,000 under the head of "Administration," £5 7s. 4d. represents commission here, and that "Unallocated Expenditure" is practically a sub-head for stores purchased pending their being charged to the appropriate heads.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: In the last line of my question I refer to the information given in the Votes, which is restricted to nine heads.
  SIR M. HICKS BEACH: If the hon. Member will take the trouble to refer to the Report I have quoted he will, I think, obtain all the information he desires.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: But I want it in the accounts.

  POOH LAW OFFICIALS—RETURN OF SALARIES, ETC.
  MR. LAWRENCE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he has any objection to obtaining a Return from the unions in England and Wales (other than the metropolitan unions) of the amount expended by them in respect of the salaries, remunerations, and superannuation allowances of the officers of their unions (other than teachers in poor law schools) and of the district schools to which such unions contribute, and on drugs and medical appliances during the financial year ended on 25th March, 1899, and of the grant made to such unions by county councils (other than the London County Council) during the same period, in respect of such expenditure, in pursuance of Sec. 26 of the Local Government Act, 1888.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. CHAPLIN, Lincolnshire, Sleaford): Particulars as to the expenditure incurred by each board of guardians in respect of the salaries, remuneration, rations, and superannuation allowance of their officers are given in the Local Taxation Returns published annually, and a statement of the amounts certified by the Local Government Board under Section 26 of the Local Govern-
  36
  ment Act, 1888, and which are paid annually to the guardians under that section, will be found in the Appendix to the Nineteenth Annual Report of the Board. To obtain the exact information suggested in the question would involve considerable labour, and I am not aware of any sufficient reason for this labour being undertaken.

  LOCAL LOANS—SINKING FUND.
  SIR HENRY FOWLER: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board what is the rate per cent. to provide a sinking fund for the repayment of loans at the expiration of fifty, sixty, seventy, and one hundred years, taking the rate of interest at 2½ per cent.
  MR. CHAPLIN: If a loan was raised at 3 per cent. interest, repayable by means of a sinking fund accumulating at 2½ per cent., the annual charge in respect of the interest and sinking fund for each £100 of the loan would be £4 0s. 6¼d. if the loan was repayable in 50 years; £3 14s. 8½d. in 60 years; £3 10s. 9½d. in 70 years; and £3 4s. 7½d. in 100 years.

  CORONERS' INQUESTS—JURYMAN'S OATH—PONTYPRIDD COMPLAINT.
  MR. ALFRED THOMAS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been drawn to the proceedings of an inquest held at the Llanbradach Arms, Pontypridd, on the 28th March last, in which the coroner refused to allow Mr. John Jones, who was summoned on the jury and who had conscientious objections against taking the oath, to affirm as by law provided; and whether he will state on what ground Mr. Jones was refused to affirm.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir M. WHITE RIDLEY,): The refusal was due to an error on the part of the coroner, who was at the time under the impression that the Oaths Act, 1888, applied only to witnesses.

  ST. NICHOLAS INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL, MANOR PARK—FATALITY TO A. H. WATERS.
  MR. FLOWER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home

  37
  Department whether his attention has been called to the death of a boy named Alfred Henry Waters, a pupil in the St. Nicholas Industrial School, Manor Park, who died from injuries received from a fall from a window, while attempting to lower himself there from in order to escape from the school; whether he can state the number of cases of absconding and of the infliction of corporal punishment in the last twelve months in this school; and if he has held or will cause to be held an inquiry into its discipline and management.
  SIR M. WHITE RIDLEY: I have received a full report as to the circumstances of the death of the boy Waters and as to the present discipline and management of St. Nicholas Industrial School. The accident happened on the 29th of last month. The boy had been admitted only on the 14th of that month, was never punished or even reproved by the officers, seems never to have complained of anything or anybody, was a general favourite, and was regarded as a very promising lad. I am satisfied that no blame whatever can attach to the officers of the school on account of this unhappy occurrence; and I do not propose to cause any further inquiry to be made. I may say that I directed a formal inquiry to be held in May of last year into the state of the school, with the result that an entire change of management was ordered and took place in October. The school is being carefully watched, and the effect of the new superintendent's management, which my inspectors report, I am glad to say, as very satisfactory and hopeful, is to be seen even in the figures of cases of absconding and corporal punishment, which were between January and December, 1899, one hundred and six and thirty-seven respectively. Of these fifty-five and twenty-three respectively took place before the change of management, and fifty-one and fourteen in the last three months of the year when the broken discipline was being restored. In the first four months of this year there have been twenty-one punishments and three abscondings.

  COMPTON (SURREY) BURIAL BOARD.
  MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
  38
  ment whether he is aware that Compton (Surrey) Parish Council, acting as a burial board, has, in advertising for a caretaker for the cemetery and a disused church-yard, stated that the person appointed must be a member of the Church of England, and that preference will be given to a man who would be willing to undertake the duties of parish clerk; and whether a parish council, acting under the Burial Acts, has the legal right to limit such an appointment to members of the Church of England.
  SIR M. WHITE RIDLEY: The hon. Member has been good enough to send me the advertisement in question. I am not aware that the parish council, in imposing the condition which it contains, are contravening the law. Their reason, as I am informed, for contemplating that the same person should hold the posts of caretaker and parish clerk is that the salary of the former post is not sufficient to secure the services of a suitable man.

  DISPOSAL OF DISEASED CARCASES.
  MAJOR RASCH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Agriculture if he is aware that quarters of beef, sheep, etc., condemned at Deptford, are washed ashore on the Essex coast, in consequence of their being jettisoned by the contractors off Foulness instead of in Barron deeps, thereby spreading the infection of pleuro and foot-and-mouth disease; and if he will induce the contractors to do their duty by taking the carcases further out to sea, in accordance with the terms of their agreement.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. LONG,): I think the complaints upon which the question of my hon. and gallant friend is based have reference to the fact that some of the offal which was ordered to be taken out to sea, in consequence of the discovery of foot-and-mouth disease in animals brought from the Argentine, has been washed ashore. The matter is receiving the attention of the coastguard, and inasmuch as the importation of live animals from the Argentine is now prohibited, there is not likely to be any further cause of complaint. I am advised that there is no probability of the introduction of disease in the manner suggested.

  PORTLAND PLACE (LONDON, W.) POST OFFICE.
  MR. SOAMES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether complaints have been received by the Postmaster General as to the insufficiency of the post office adjoining the Langham Hotel for the requirements of the neighbourhood; whether the Post Office has been for some years looking for more spacious premises for a branch office in that district; and, if so, for how many years; and whether the Post Office has inspected or been in treaty for any premises, and whether he is aware that there is a suitable house either vacant or shortly about to become vacant in Regent Street, on the north side of Oxford Circus.
  MR. HANBURY: The accommodation afforded in the branch post office at the Langham Hotel is insufficient for the requirements, and for some time past the owners have been trying to obtain powers to enlarge the office, but they have now finally failed. Several houses in the neighbourhood have been offered from time to time, and some have been inspected, but while the enlargement of the Langham Hotel office was pending the Department has not been looking for other premises. Now, however, a house to the north of Oxford Circus is under consideration.

  NATIONAL PHYSICAL LABORATORY AT KEW.
  LORD BALCAREES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury what proportion of the sum of £7,000 to be voted for building the National Physical Laboratory is to be spent on the smaller detached building to be placed close to or within the Old Deer Park at Kew; and whether he will have a rough plan placed in the Tea Room showing the sites upon which these buildings will be placed.
  MR. HANBURY: The expenditure of the grant of £12,000, of which the £7,000 mentioned in the question forms part, is left to the Council of the National Physical Laboratory; but I understand that the amount to be assigned to the building in question is at present fixed at £5,600. The precise site and area to be adopted have not yet been determined; when they have been so, a map shall be
  40
  prepared and made available for the information of those interested.
  LORD BALCARRES: When is the site likely to be determined on?
  MR. HANBURY: I cannot say.

  GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY OF IRELAND—CLONES LEVEL CROSSING.
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether anything can be done to prevail upon the management of the Great Northern Railway of Ireland to construct a bridge over the level crossing on their system at Clones, and thereby remove the danger to life and limb which exists at that place; will he use his influence with the management to mitigate the danger which exists in the narrowness of the central platform at Clones, inasmuch as at certain points it is scarcely broad enough to allow two persons to pass each other between the trains and the waiting-room; and will he cause an inspector to visit the place and report upon these matters.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. RITCHIE,): I have been in communication on the subject of the hon. Member's question with the railway company, who do not admit that danger has arisen or is likely to arise from either of the causes mentioned. I will instruct one of the inspecting officers of railways to take an early opportunity of visiting the station named.

  RUSH HARBOUR—WRECK OF THE "DOLLY VARDEN."
  MR. CLANCY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been directed to the wreck, on the rocks at the entrance to Rush Harbour, county of Dublin, of the fishing yawl "Dolly Varden"; whether he is aware that the wreck has been attributed to the absence of a light at the entrance of the harbour; and whether the Board of Trade will take any steps to cause a light to be put up at the point mentioned.
  MR. RITCHIE: I have received the sworn depositions of the master and a member of the crew of the fishing yawl "Dolly Varden" as to the wreck of that vessel at the entrance to Rush Harbour. In their opinion the casualty was caused

  41
  by a dense fog, in which case a light at the entrance to the harbour would, I am advised, have been of no use. In any case the Board of Trade have no power to cause a light to be erected at the place in question, which is presumably within the jurisdiction of the harbour authority.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Does the right hon. Gentleman say a light would be of no use to the harbour?
  MR. RITCHIE: I was speaking of a particular light under certain circumstances. It does not alter the fact that we have no power to cause a light to be placed there.

  BELFAST AND COUNTY DOWN RAILWAY COMPANY STEAMERS.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the Belfast and County Down Railway Company hold the necessary certificate to run steamships or other vessels, either as owners or on charter, for the conveyance by sea of passengers or general cargo; and, if so, on what date was such certificate granted.
  MR. RITCHIE: The only certificates issued by the Board of Trade to the company referred to in the question at present in force are passenger certificates under the Merchant Shipping Act. They enable the company to carry passengers in the "Slieve Bearnagh," between Belfast and Bangor or Carrickfergus, and between Belfast or Bangor and Rathlin Island or Killough. These certificates are dated May 3rd.

  EMIGRATION FROM IRELAND.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that over 2,200 Irish emigrants embarked at Queenstown for America in a single week of last month; and whether it is proposed to take any steps with a view to prevent the further depopulation of Ireland.
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. G. W. BALFOUR, Leeds, Central): The largest number of Irish emigrants who left Queenstown in any one week of last month was 1,950. I may add, however, that the total number of emigrants from Ireland during the first four months of the present year is considerably
  42
  less than the average number for the corresponding period in the past ten years.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: The right hon. Gentleman has not answered the last paragraph of the question.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: I do not see what answer I can give. The Government cannot introduce legislation to stop it.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Certainly not.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: But you could find a remedy by rooting the people to the soil by a system of compulsory sale.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  IRISH NATIONAL SCHOOL FEES.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can say how the amount of result fees to be paid to National schools is calculated in the cases of schools in which the annual results period terminated on 31st March last, but which schools were not examined by the school inspector in accordance with the old rules; and when will those result fees be paid.
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: Every National school in operation during the financial year ended the 31st March, 1900, has been examined for results fees. In a small number of cases these examinations did not actually take place within the financial year owing to the necessity of postponing the visits of the inspectors through the prevalency of sickness in the locality of the schools, or from other causes; but in all these cases results fees have been paid, or will be paid with the least possible delay, for the results period terminated within the financial year.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Will they be paid in a lump sum?
  MR. G. W. BALFOUR: I must ask for notice. I have, however, no reason to suppose they will not be paid in the usual manner.

  WORKMEN'S COMPENSATION ACT— EXTENSION TO NAVAL AND MILITARY SERVANTS.
  MR. M'KENNA: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury

  43
  whether the Government propose to take any steps in the present session of Parliament to carry out the principle recommended in the resolution of the House of Tuesday, 1st May,✶ relating to compensation for injuries to soldiers and sailors.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): I am not yet in a position to say.

  THE HAGUE CONFERENCE.
  MR. MADDISON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether all the Governments that took part in the Hague Conference last year have ratified the Convention which was formulated by the Conference; and whether any of the Governments that have ratified the Convention have done so with reservations; and, if so, will he state the nature of such reservations and the names of the Governments that have made them.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The Governments that took part in the Hague Conference have not yet ratified the Convention.

  DEFAULTING BANKERS, BROKERS AND SOLICITORS — SUGGESTED LEGISLATION.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether any legislation is contemplated in order to render liable as trustees, bankers, brokers, and solicitors, in respect of moneys and securities placed in their hands by their clients.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The subject has been brought into unpleasant prominence lately, and though the Government have no proposals before them on the subject, I think it is one that ought to be taken into serious consideration.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I wish to ask the First Lord of the Treasury with regard to the item of business which appears first on this White Paper—the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Bill—in what manner it is proposed to introduce it. In the Orders issued on Saturday it appeared
✶See The Parliamentary Debates [Fourth Series]. Vol. lxxxii., p. 489.
44
that it was to be introduced under what is known as the Ten Minutes Rule, but that has been changed in to-day's Paper, and we are a little at a loss to know what are the intentions of the Government.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am surprised that there should be any doubt as to the intentions of the Government, for I stated in most specific terms on Friday that not only would this Commonwealth Bill be the first Order, but that there was a possibility that the discussion might take more than one night, although I hoped not. Therefore the intentions of the Government were never in question. How there came to be a misprint in the Blue Papers I am unable to say.
MR. JAMES LOWTHER: What is the intention of the Government with regard to the motion for the discharge of Mr. Houston from the Committee on War Office Contracts. It cannot, I take it, come on after midnight if opposed. Will the right hon. Gentleman in that case fix a definite day for it?
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The usual course will be followed. If the motion should be opposed after twelve o'clock, it will stand over for next day.
SIR CHARLES CAMERON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he can give the House any information as to the date of the commencement and probable duration of the Whitsuntide Recess.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I am afraid I cannot make any definite statement on the subject in the present state of public business.

MR. LEES KNOWLES AND MR. S. WOODS-PERSONAL EXPLANATION.
MR. LEES KNOWLES: I desire to make a personal explanation. Since coming to the House my attention has been called to a statement made by the hon. Member for Walthamstow (Mr. S. Woods) on Friday night in the House with regard to Messrs. Andrew Knowles and Sons, Limited, with which company I am associated. The hon. Member is reported in The Times to have referred to the Accident Relief Society of the company, and to have asserted that considerable influence

45
has been used to induce the workmen to accept their scheme in place of the Workmen's Compensation Act, 1897. Such a statement as that is absolutely untrue; and, further than that—
MR. SPEAKER: Older, order! I think the company that the hon. Member mentioned is a limited company, and in that case the hon. Member cannot speak of any aspersion on that firm as a personal matter, although he is connected with it.
MR. LEES KNOWLES: In connection with the company there is an Accident Society, of which I am the president, and to that extent I think the matter is a personal one, as an attack was made upon the Society.
MR. SPEAKER: There can be no personal explanation unless the hon. Member can show that he was personally attacked. The privilege of making a personal explanation must be strictly confined to a personal matter.
MR. LEES KNOWLES: The colliery manager was personally mentioned, the statement being that the colliery manager had actually gone to the pit bank and had almost forced the men to go to the office and sign the contracting-out forms.
MR. SPEAKER: Am I to understand that the hon. Member is the colliery manager? If not, it is not a personal matter.
MR. LEES KNOWLES: I want only to say that that statement is also untrue.

BRITISH MUSEUM BILL [Lords].
Read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 197.]

RAILWAYS (PREVKNTION OF ACCIDENTS) BILL.
Reported, with Amendments, from the Standing Committee on Trade, etc.
Report, to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 175.]
Minutes of the Proceedings of the Standing Committee to be printed. [No. 175.]
Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee), to be taken into consideration
46
upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 198.]

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION BILL.
[INTRODUCTION.]
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): I have no doubt there are many Members of the House who will be inclined to envy me the privilege that has fallen to my lot in introducing this Bill for the federation of some of our greatest colonies—a Bill which marks an era in the history of Australia, and is a great and important step towards the organisation of the British Empire. This Bill, which is the result of the careful and prolonged labours of the ablest states-| men in Australia, enables that great island continent to enter at once the widening circle of English-speaking nations. No longer will she be a congeries of States, each of them separate from and entirely independent of the others, a position which anyone will see might possibly in the future, through the natural consequences of competition, become a source of danger and lead, at any rate, to friction and to weakness. But, if this Bill passes, in future Australia will be, in the words of the preamble of the Bill which I am about to introduce, "an indissoluble federal Commonwealth firmly united for many of the most important functions of government." After it has been passed there will be for Australia under one Administration a uniform postal and telegraphic service, and provision is made making it possible hereafter for railway communication to be under similar control. In the meantime everything which has to do with the exterior relations of the six colonies concerned will be a matter for the Commonwealth, and not for the individual Governments; a common tariff will be established for all the colonies; there will be at the same time inter-colonial free trade, and what is perhaps more important than all, in future there will be a common form and a common control of national defences. Now, this is a consummation long expected and earnestly hoped for by the people of this country. We believe that it is in the interest of Australia, and that has always been with us the first consideration. But we recognise that it is

47
also in our interest as well; we believe the relations between ourselves and these colonies will be simplified, will be more frequent and unrestricted, and, if it be possible, though I hardly think it is, will be more cordial when we have to deal with a single central authority instead of having severally to consult six independent Governments. Whatever is good for Australia is good for the whole British Empire. Therefore, we all of us —independently altogether of party, whether at home or in any other portion of the Empire—rejoice at this proposal, welcome the new birth of which we are witnesses, and anticipate for those great free and progressive communities a future even more prosperous than their past, and an honourable and important position in the history of the Anglo-Saxon race. I hope the House will not think I am taking up its time unnecessarily if, in a few brief words, I give some account of the history of this great movement. The House is aware that the first colonisation of Australia took place in New South Wales in 1788, and that for nearly a generation after that time, as other settlements were made at vast distances along the coast, they all came in some measure under the control of what I may call the central Administration which existed at Sydney. But it will be readily seen that, as these settlements gradually became more populous and of greater importance, the difficulty of such a system of central administration became almost intolerable; and accordingly in 1825 what was then known as Van Dieman's Land became a separate colony under the name of Tasmania, and the example of Tasmania was followed in succession by Western Australia, South Australia, Victoria, and lastly by Queensland in 1859. Victoria, which was then known as the Port Philip Settlement, was separated from New South Wales by Act of Parliament in 1850, but in 1847, when giving assent to this proposal, Earl Grey, to whom we all must feel we owe most of the principles by which our colonial policy is guided, laid down the views then entertained by him and Her Majesty's Government of the time in reference to the ultimate necessity for some central authority in Australia. He said—
"It is necessary while providing for local management of local interests we should not omit to provide for the central management of all interests not local. Questions having a
48
bearing on the interests of the Empire may be left appropriately to the Imperial Parliament; but there are questions which though local to Australia collectively are not merely local in relation to one colony, though each may have part in a common interest, and in regard to which it may be essential to the welfare of all to have a single authority, and they may more appropriately and effectually be decided by a single authority in Australia than by the more remote, less accessible, and, in truth, less competent authority of Parliament."
It will be seen that Earl Grey foresaw that in the future, at any rate, this necessity would arise. He was a little before his time, for when, in 1850, he introduced proposals for constituting such central authority, his proposals met with no general support, and the Bill, when it became an Act, was confined to the establishment of the colony of Victoria, separating it from the older colony of New South Wales. But from this time, and continuously down to the present day, the subject of some closer union between the separate Australian provinces or States has attracted the attention of all far-seeing and patriotic statesmen, especially in Australia. And among those who laboured in this movement I think it would be ungrateful not to mention the name of Sir Henry Parkes. Sir Henry Parkes was certainly a most remarkable individuality; he had his peculiarities, as most of us have, but no one would deny that he was a man of great capacity, of great power of work, of great resource, and of intense local patriotism; and I think that to-day, when the consummation of the work for which he laboured so long is clearly within sight, we may well bear his memory in respectful regard. In 1867 the Dominion of Canada was established. This gave to Sir Henry Parkes an opportunity which he was not slow to seize, and, although he had raised the question before, he now again emphatically urged his fellow-Australians to follow the example of the Dominion of Canada. Still, however, no progress was made. A little later the somewhat sinister activity of certain foreign Powers in the Pacific brought the matter home in a clearer degree to the majority of the Australian people; and in 1883, accordingly, a conference was called, again at the instance of Sir Henry Parkes, of all the colonies, which resulted in certain recommendations, in the adoption of certain general principles, which led almost immediately to the establishment of what is known as the Federal Council. The

49
Federal Council, however, although very wisely designed as an experimental step at a time when there was still much to be done before the colonies themselves could see the necessity of a closer union—the Federal Council was not a very effective instrument; it had no legislative power, no executive power, it was neither more nor less than an advisory council, and under the circumstances it did not excite any warm popularity in Australia. The great colony of New South Wales refused from the first to attend its deliberations; South Australia subsequently withdrew from them; and now, having served its turn, this Federal Council will be abolished by the Bill which I am about to introduce. Then, again, after the establishment of the Federal Council, and coming down to 1890, a good deal of uneasiness, the result, I think, largely of what was known as the Russian scare, was felt in Australia as to the state of Australian defences, and accordingly another conference was then held in Melbourne. It was followed by a convention in Sydney in 1891, when the first great advance towards a federal union was at last made, because the convention of Sydney in 1891 produced a draft of a Commonwealth Bill which has been the foundation for all subsequent discussion. Those who are acquainted with this draft, which has, of course, very many points of resemblance with the present measure, will, I am sure, recognise the great constructive skill with which it was framed; and they may be interested to know that its great qualities are largely, if not chiefly, due to the labour given to it by Sir Samuel Griffith, the present Chief Justice of Queensland, and by Mr. Barton, who was then Attorney General in Sir George Gipp's Government, and who is now the distinguished representative of New South Wales among the delegates who have recently been our guests. Well, this draft was then submitted to the local Parliaments, but still, although quiet progress had been made, there was not sufficient popular force behind the movement to secure the Bill being brought into operation; and it was evident to those who were interested in the movement, and particularly I think to my hon. friend Mr. Barton, that the next step must be to educate the people of Australia themselves to the necessity and the importance of this movement. Accordingly, I believe it is to him that we owe the formation of
50
what is known as the Federal League, which went up and down the country throughout Australia informing the people of the nature of their proposal, explaining the draft, and urging the desirability of its adoption. And so successful was this educational movement that in 1895 the Premiers, meeting again, agreed to bring forward enabling Bills in their several Parliaments for providing a convention of delegates which should be instructed and empowered to frame a constitution. This constitution was then to be submitted to the separate Parliaments sitting in Grand Committee—in Committee of the whole House—and the amendments which might be made in the several Parliaments were then to be referred back to another meeting of the convention and considered by them, and a final draft after such consideration was then to be submitted to the people of the several States in the shape of a general referendum. The convention, accordingly, was held at Adelaide in March, 1897; and certainly, I think, any one who reads the history of the debates which took place then will agree with me that it would have been absolutely impossible to have collected together more capable, more able, more efficient representatives of Australian feeling than met in that convention. I say that, but I must make one exception. Owing to circumstances on which I need not dwell, the Government of Queensland refused to pass an enabling Bill, and consequently at this convention Queensland was not represented, but the other colonies were all present. The convention went to work in that businesslike spirit which we flatter ourselves distinguishes British proceedings throughout the world. In the first instance they considered and passed resolutions settling the principle upon which they would proceed; then these resolutions were divided amongst a number of committees, and considered by them, and the result was afterwards discussed and finally settled in the whole convention. The draft so prepared went to the different Parliaments, and was returned by them to the Sydney convention in 1897 with their amendments. That convention adjourned to Melbourne in 1898, and the final draft—as it was submitted to Her Majesty's Government the other day by the Parliaments of the five colonies who may be described as the federating colonies— the draft as then

51
submitted was finally passed by the convention. It had still to go through the ordeal of a, referendum. The first referendum showed 219,000 votes for and 108,000 against the Bill. Unfortunately, or as it may be considered fortunately, the New South Wales majority, although there was a majority in favour of the Bill, did not reach the amount of 80,000 votes which had been fixed as the minimum to justify the adoption of the measure. Accordingly on that occasion the Bill was not passed by that colony. New South Wales then took the opportunity of proposing further amendments. These amendments were considered in a friendly spirit by another meeting of the Premiers, and they were to some extent adopted, the proceedings being, perhaps, rather in the nature of a compromise. But still I think in substance the wishes of New South Wales were complied with, and arrangements were then made for a second referendum. On this occasion the referendum took place in the five colonies—I should have said that previous to the first referendum taking place there were only four colonies, Queensland and Western Australia being excluded—but in the second and last referendum Queensland took part for the first time, and the results were 377,600 votes for the Bill and 141,500 against. Western Australia did not join in this decision, but pressed for certain further amendments, which, however, the Premiers decided it was too late for them to consider. And so the Bill is presented to us. It comes with the authority behind it of five federating colonies, and it is this Bill, with a few alterations, but substantially this Bill, with 128 clauses, and dealing with a vast number, probably with hundreds, or even thousands, of separate propositions of the greatest importance, which I have to ask leave to introduce. I think it will be admitted that this Bill is a Bill worthy of all the care and the labour which has been bestowed upon it. I think I may describe it as, and it certainly is, a monument of legislative competency. Of course, the framers of the Bill themselves are perfectly ready to admit that it may not be perfect, that amendments may ultimately be required in it, and that experience may show that something has been omitted, or that something has been placed within its four corners which might with advantage have been left out. But
52
provision has been made for any such amendment in the Bill itself; and, considering the magnitude and the variety of the interests that we are to deal with, the intricacy and the importance of the subjects with which the Bill has to deal, I think that no praise can be too high for those whose moderation, patience, skill, mutual consideration, and patriotism have been able to produce so great a result. It would be absolutely impossible for me, within anything like a reasonable time, to refer to the multifarious details of this great measure, nor do I think it necessary to do so, because I cannot conceive that the House will be inclined to discuss these details in any critical spirit; but I might be allowed, and it would interest the House, I think, if I call attention to the general scope of the measure and to some of its most striking features. I think it is true to say that, on the whole, this new Constitution, although it is in important respects unlike every other constitution at present existing, still in the main, and more than any other, follows the Constitution of the United States of America. But it would be, perhaps, more interesting to us to contrast it with the Constitution of our own colony of Canada. The differences between the Constitution of the Dominion and the Constitution of the new Commonwealth arc, I think, to be explained in a certain fundamental diversity in the position of the two colonies, and also in the methods by which the Constitution has been brought into existence. In the case of Canada, the delegates came here and the Constitution was settled here in conference with Her Majesty's Government, and was the result, to some extent at any rate, of their advice and suggestion. In the case of Australia, the people of Australia, through their representatives, have worked alone, without either inviting or desiring any assistance from outside. In Australia, it must also be remembered, the separate States have enjoyed for a much longer period than had the provinces of Canada complete independent self-governing existence, and, accordingly, while in Canada the people had before them at the time that the Constitution was decided upon the warning, I might almost say, afforded by the civil war in America of the danger of exaggerating State rights, and while the special provinces had no | desire to put forward those rights in too i emphatic a manner, in Australia there

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was no such example to fear, and the separate colonies had enjoyed for so long such great powers that they were naturally unwilling to part with them to anything like the same extent. Accordingly, while in Canada the result of the Constitution was substantially to amalgamate the provinces into one Dominion, the Constitution of Australia creates a federation for distinctly definite and limited objects of a number of independent States, and State rights have throughout been jealously preserved. In Canada everything that was not given expressly to the provinces went to the Central Government. In Australia the Central Government has only powers over matters which are expressly stated and defined in the Constitution. In Canada the Senate was a body which represented particular provinces substantially in proportion to their population. In Australia the Senate consists of six members from all the States—that is to say, an equal number, whatever may be the size or the population; and the mode of the election of the Senate is also different from that of Canada, and, I believe, entirely novel. In Canada the Senate was nominated for life on the advice of the Ministers. In the United States, as we all know, the Senate is elected by the Legislatures of the several States. In Australia the Senate is to be elected at the same election as the Lower House, but each State is to vote, not in the separate constituencies into which it is divided for the purposes of the Lower House, but as one constituency—a scrutin de liste, in fact, as the French call it— except in the case of Queensland, where there are to be two divisions. The Upper House is to serve for six years instead of three; but those are the only differences which separate it in composition, qualification, or constitution from the composition of the Lower House. The Lower House is to be elected according to the electoral laws of the several States, but according to population, and a very ingenious device has been resorted to in order to prevent the numbers of the Lower House from ever becoming excessive. It is provided by the Constitution that the Members of the Lower House shall, as far as possible, be exactly double the numbers of the Upper House or Senate. I should add, perhaps, that the Members of both Houses will he paid, and paid the same salary.
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There is also an example which I cannot help thinking might be wisely imitated by ourselves. Ministers on taking office do not vacate their seats. Then there is a most ingenious and complicated provision to prevent a possible deadlock between the two Houses; for although they are, as I have said, elected practically by the same constituency, I think it is evident that the differences in the manner of election may sometimes result in a diversity of opinion between the two chambers. In that case—and here, also, I cannot help thinking that hon. Members who are interested in the subject may find many useful suggestions—the course of the operation is this. Measures may be twice rejected by the Senate, as I understand, in two separate sessions of Parliament. After that the Government may dissolve both Houses. Both Houses will be re-elected at the same time. If after that re-election the Senate should again—a third time—reject a measure, then there is to be a joint sitting of both Houses, and a decision is to be taken by a simple majority of both Houses. That applies to the case of ordinary measures, but, if the question between the two Houses is an amendment of the Constitution, then a somewhat different course is followed. The proposed amendment may be twice rejected by the Senate, and if after that the Houses do not come to an agreement, then the amendment will be settled by moans of a referendum, and is to be decided by the majority of votes in a majority of the States. Now, to this new Parliament so constituted thirty-nine distinct subjects have been expressly referred. Amongst them are the tariff, post office, and telegraph services, defence, currency, bankruptcy, marriage and divorce, and old-age pensions, and also the following matters—to which I call special attention because they involve interest outside Australia as well as locally—first, the fisheries in Australian waters, beyond the territorial limits of Australia; secondly, copyright: thirdly, legislation dealing with the people of any race not being natives of either of the States (I think that has in view legislation in regard to Asiatics); fourthly, "external affairs," a phrase of great breadth and vagueness, which, unless interpreted and controlled by some other provision, might easily, it will be seen, give rise to serious difficulties; and, fifthly, the relations with the islands,

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of the Pacific, which also involves, of course, many questions in which foreign nations are concerned. It will be seen that almost all the points to which I have thus called special attention are matters in which the Imperial Government may have to deal with foreign countries. It is important, therefore—I say this in passing, although I shall deal with it more at length—it is important that measures of this kind, which may involve the Imperial Government in the most serious responsibility, should be interpreted by a tribunal in which all parties have confidence. There are also in the Bill some complicated provisions for dealing with the division of the receipts from Customs among the several States, for the imposition of new duties, and the division of old ones. I have mentioned, at all events, the most important and the most interesting matters which are raised by this Bill, and I think it is evident from even this very brief and inadequate résumé that there are a great number of propositions in the Bill which, if it were a case of freely discussing a Constitution of our own, would arouse much difference of opinion. If we had been invited to frame a Constitution, or if we had been consulted after the Constitution had been framed, it is quite possible—I do not say it would have been so—it is quite possible we might have had many suggestions to make and some amendments to offer. But that is not the position. The Bill has been prepared without reference to us. It represents substantially and in most of its features the general opinion of the Australian people; and although I differ totally from those who have said that the Australian people do not desire that this great measure, the result of the labour of their representatives, should receive in the Imperial Parliament the fullest consideration and even the fullest discussion; although I deny altogether that the Australian people have ever considered, or shown that they consider, the Imperial Parliament as merely a Court for the registration of their decrees; and although I am convinced that the Australian people will be neither offended nor insulted if we alter here a word or there a word, or even a clause, in this Bill, I think, on the other hand, they do expect that we shall have a reasonable regard to the labours which they have already expended upon this measure, and to the
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general feeling of the Australian people; wherever it has been really and conclusively shown, and to those rights of self-government of which they have made so magnificent a use and which we have so freely and gladly conceded. Now, it is therefore on these main principles that the Government have proceeded in dealing with this Bill. On the one hand, we have accepted without demur, and we shall ask the House of Commons to accept, every point in this Bill, every word, every line, every clause, which deals exclusively with the interests of Australia. We may be vain enough to think that we might have made improvements for the advantage of Australia, but we recognise that they are the best judges in their own case, and we are quite content that the views of their representatives should be in those matters accepted as final; and the result of that is that the Bill which I hope to present to the House to-night is, so far as ninety - nine hundredths of it, I think I might almost say 999-thousandths of it is concerned— as regards the vast proportion of the Bill —exactly the same as that which passed the referendum of the Australian people. But the second principle which I ask the House to assent to, and to which we have given application by certain amendments we have made in the Bill, is that wherever the Bill touches the interests of the Empire as a whole, or the interests of Her Majesty's subjects, or of Her Majesty's possessions outside Australia, the Imperial Parliament occupies a position of trust which it is not the desire of the Empire, and which I do not believe for a moment it is the desire of Australia, that we should fulfil in any perfunctory or formal manner. As I say, we have applied these principles in dealing with the Bill. Two colonies — Western Australia and New Zealand— appealed to Her Majesty's Government, and were represented here by special delegates, and asked us to interfere to secure for them certain amendments in the Bill. I may say Her Majesty's Government were inclined to sympathise with the desire of both these colonies. Her Majesty's Government would have been very glad indeed could their wishes have been complied with; but, as we considered that it was an entirely Australian question, as it was a difference of opinion arising between the Australian colonies, in which neither the Empire nor

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the mother country were themselves directly concerned, we felt we were not justified in pressing these claims, or in insisting upon securing their adoption as against the majority of the colonies in Australia. Western Australia asked for the right to come in as an original State, on terms slightly different from those provided in the Constitution. The differences arose as to the question of tariffs; and undoubtedly it was admitted by the five federating colonies, that, owing to the peculiar position of Western Australia, she was entitled to some period of interval before she adopted the common tariff of the Commonwealth; and accordingly five years were allowed her for that purpose, subject to the condition that each year one-fifth of any difference that might exist between the tariff of Western Australia and the tariff of the Commonwealth should be reduced. I confess that it seemed to me that a condition of that kind imposed, and I still think it imposes, on the financial system of Western Australia a very considerable strain. I do not envy the position of the Chancellor of the Exchequer who is beforehand tied down by a statutory and Constitutional law to reduce his tariff by one-fifth in every successive year for five years to come. It is perfectly evident that that must interfere to a considerable extent with the production of his annual budget. But, as I have said, having appealed to the Premiers, and having put forward the views of Western Australia, and having received from them the statement that they did not feel justified in assenting to any amendments, we reported the result of our inquiries to Sir John Forrest, the highly-respected Premier of Western Australia; and we ventured—although it was perhaps hardly our business—in the interest, as we believed, of Australia as a whole and even of Western Australia, to press upon him that his Government should now reconsider their position, and that in spite of the arrangements of which they complained they should seek to enter the Federation as an original State. I am very happy to say—as will be seen by the Blue-book which I have laid upon the table—that Sir John Forrest and his Government have assented to our request to take this step. Their Parliament will be shortly called together; and I hope the result will be that the Constitution
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will be submitted to the people of Western Australia, and that Her Majesty's Government will be able to proclaim the whole of the six colonies of Australia as taking part in this great scheme. The colony of New Zealand made several requests to us. Two of these were, I think, of minor importance. They were that they should have access to the Supreme Court of the new Federation, and that some arrangement should be made at once for common defence. We considered that there would be no difficulty in dealing with these very important questions as between New Zealand and the Federated Commonwealth after it was formed, and that it was unnecessary to delay the Commonwealth during the discussion of matters which, no doubt, would require a considerable amount of time. The third proposal was that New Zealand should be allowed to enter as an original State at any time within the next seven years—I do not know that the period of seven years was a definite part of the proposition; but, at all events, a considerable period was to be given to them to make their choice. I confess that here also I should have been very glad if the Premiers had seen their way to accept the suggestion. The delegates, however, who were representing the five federating colonies explained, very ably, the difficulties that would arise from such a state of things. They pointed out that great inconvenience might be suffered, especially with regard to the establishment of a tariff, if the federating colonies were under a sort of compulsion to accept another partner at any time during a long period. I felt this decision the more particularly, because I do not hesitate to say that Her Majesty's Government and the people of this country are under special obligations to the Government and people of New Zealand. Of all the colonies, all the possessions of Her Majesty, including Canada and all the colonies of Australia—I am excluding the colonies in South Africa—New Zealand, in proportion to her population, supplied the largest contingent to Her Majesty's forces, and made the greatest sacrifices. I mentioned this matter in the House a few days ago; but I find I under-estimated what New Zealand has done. I am told that, according to population, the New Zealand contingent in South Africa is equivalent to an army sent from this country of 107,000 men. I do think that

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is a most extraordinary proof of what shall I say?—of affection and regard for the mother country; and if this point of difference had been between the mother country and New Zealand I feel quite certain the House would be inclined to make almost any concession that could be asked. But as it was exclusively a matter between New Zealand and the federating colonies, and as the Premiers again put in a non possumus and stated that they had no authority to consent at this period to any further amendments, we have had no course open to us but to accept, although we regret, that decision. We could not, I think, fairly press the opinion of a single colony against the unanimous opinion of five. I now come to the points upon which we think amendment to be necessary. Substantially there is only one point of importance, but in order that I may be perfectly accurate I will mention others, as to which, I think, there will probably be very little debate or opposition. In the first place, there was a blank left in the draft Constitution Bill which it was intended we should fill up as soon as it was known whether Western Australia had joined. We have applied for the figures requisite to fill up the blank, and, having received them from the Australian colonies, we shall insert them at their request. Then, there are certain drafting alterations which are desirable, if not absolutely necessary, in consequence of the probability of the admission of Western Australia as an original State. We have submitted these amendments to the delegates, and, so far as I know at present, no objection of any kind is taken to their insertion. Then, in the third place, there is a matter of more importance, though I am happy to say it is one on which there is no division of opinion. We propose to make clear in the Bill the application of the Colonial Laws Validity Act to the Commonwealth. Doubts have been expressed in the course of the discussion whether the Commonwealth is a colony within the meaning of the Act. The Act, as lawyers in the House are no doubt perfectly well aware, provides, among other things, that where a colonial Act is repugnant to an Imperial statute it shall not be wholly void, but shall only be void so far as repugnancy extends. It was intended as an enabling Act to prevent what otherwise might have occurred —the whole of the colonial statute being
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rendered void in consequence of its being repugnant on some one point to Imperial legislation. The Act is one of great importance, because it defines the extent to which the paramountcy of Imperial legislation goes. The fact that Imperial legislation is paramount has always been admitted by the colonies, although the use of the constitutional power has, of course, been extremely rare. The kind of cases in which that paramountcy becomes of importance are such cases as those of the Foreign Enlistment Act and the Merchant Shipping Act. In both of these cases I think it will be admitted to be desirable that there should be legislation for the whole Empire and not conflicting legislation in different parts of the Empire. In the memorandum presented by the delegates on 23rd March they argue that this amendment is altogether unnecessary. They say the Commonwealth appears to the delegates to be clearly a colony and the Federal Parliament to be a legislature within the meaning of the Act; and they cannot think that the larger meaning given to the word colony in Clause 6 can be held to take away the protection of the Act of 1885 for any law passed by the Federal Parliament. Now, I think that the House will feel that there is no difference of opinion as to the merits between us and the delegates. The only point is that they think the amendment is a work of supererogation, but we feel that the matter, involving as it does our foreign relations, is of such vast importance that we ought not to leave a shadow of doubt on the question. It is fair to say—and I wish to call the attention of the House to the fact—that in the last memorandum which was presented by the delegates only a day or two ago they raised for the first time a very very important question— namely, whether the Colonial Laws Validity Act as it stands is law properly applicable to a great Commonwealth like the Dominion of Canada and the new Commonwealth of Australia. Her Majesty's Government admit the importance of that question. They admit that it is a very fair point to raise. But, if there is to be any change in regard to the matter, which, as I have said, is of such infinite importance, the greatest care will have to be taken and very considerable delay must necessarily occur. We should have to consult Canada and other colonies before any Amendment of that

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Act could be adopted. I do not object on behalf of Her Majesty's Government that the matter is not worthy of consideration. All I say is we have to deal with a provisional period. We cannot delay the passing of the Federation Act in order to discuss this matter. We must have a proper understanding before any change is made; but it will be open to the Federation of Australia and the Dominion of Canada, if they see fit, to raise the matter at a subsequent period, and no doubt, in that case, any views they may express will receive the most careful consideration by Her Majesty's Government. Now I come to what I have described as the substantial point of alteration, which of course is the point affecting the question of appeal. This is the only point I think on which there can possibly be any important subject of controversy or difference of opinion between ourselves and the Australian representatives. Sir, I wish at the outset to repudiate in the strongest and clearest terms the possibility that any difference of opinion upon what is a great constitutional point, which has hitherto been discussed by the delegates with ourselves in the most friendly and cordial spirit, can, by any possibility, be a matter of serious conflict between ourselves and the colonies of Australia. I saw with regret a speech made only a few days ago by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife, at Colchester, and I must say that I think he was a little premature. He certainly prejudged this question without having heard one single word of the case which Her Majesty's Government had to put before the House; and he seemed to be speaking from a brief which was supplied, of course, by a single one of the parties.
MR. ASQUITH: No, no!
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Well, speaking from information—I do not know that the right hon. Gentleman will take exception to that word—speaking from information that came from one side only. Now that is what I complain of; and I think I ought to persuade the right hon. Gentleman to withdraw his speech on this subject. I regret his allusion in connection with this matter that the revolutionary war in America is a warning to us. Sir, what connection does
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the right hon. Gentleman suppose there can be between the two cases? Then, in another part of his speech, he referred to Canada as being exemplar and model. Well, I do not ask for anything more than Canada and South Africa have already most willingly granted.
MR. ASQUITH: As far as my memory goes—I have not got the speech with me —my reference to the revolution was in a totally different connection. It had nothing whatever to do with this question of the appeal.
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I am extremely glad to have elicited that statement from the right hon. Gentleman. The report which I saw, I confess, was a condensed report.
MR. ASQUITH: It was a condensed report.
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I understood him to refer to the revolution in connection with this difference of opinion, which as I say must under no circumstances be exaggerated. It is important, of course, but it must be discussed by all parties, and it will be discussed by Australia as well as by ourselves, in a perfectly friendly spirit. I am going very much further than I have done hitherto. We have got to a point in our relations with our self-governing colonies in which I think we recognise, once for all, that these relations depend entirely on their free will and absolute consent. The links between us and them at the present time are very slender. Almost a touch might snap them. But, slender as they are, and slight as they are, although we wish, although I hope, that they will become stronger, still if they are felt irksome by any one of our great colonies, we shall not attempt to force them to wear them. One of these ancient links is precisely this right of appeal by every subject of Her Majesty to the Queen in Council. The Bill weakens that—there is no doubt about that—and thereby there opens up, as I shall show, a prospect of causes of friction and irritation between the colonies and ourselves which, in my opinion, would be more numerous and more serious than anything that is likely to result if the right of appeal is retained. Well, how shall we deal with this question? I am sure the House will feel that there is no man in the House who is more anxious

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to maintain the good feeling between ourselves and our colonies than I am. Ever since I have been in office that has been my chief desire. Sir, in a case of this kind nothing is more easy than to concede; nothing is more difficult than to refuse. At the same time, believing firmly, as the Government do, that what is asked for in this Bill, as it originally came to us, is not only injurious to the best interests of Australia, but that it would lead to complications which might be destructive of good relations and prejudicial to the unity of the Empire, we feel that we are bound to ask the House to reconsider it. Sir, we believe further— and this is an important point—that opinion has not yet been definitely formed on the subject in Australia, and before, therefore, assenting to a change which may have such serious results, we hold it will be our duty to be quite certain that the demand is a demand that has behind it the whole force of Australian opinion. Now, the new clause, Clause 74, as submitted, would allow no appeal in any matter involving the Federal Constitution, or the constitution of a State, unless the "public interests" of some part of Her Majesty's dominions other than Australia are involved; and it further provides—a matter to which sufficient attention has not been directed—that the Federal Parliament may in the future make laws limiting further the matters on which appeal is to lie. Now, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife, unless he has been again misrepresented, said that the Bill did not take away any right already existing. He will find that that is a mistake. It does take away the right of appeal from a State where the State Constitution is in question; and that right exists at the present time. And further, as I have pointed out, by a proposal in this solemn instrument expressly to authorise the newly created Parliament to further limit the right of appeal, it almost makes it impossible for Her Majesty in future, in reference to this subject, to exercise the right of veto which, of course, is inherent in the prerogative.
MR. ASQUITH: Only as regards appeals from the new High Court. The Parliament can limit no other right of appeal.
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Pardon me. Surely an appeal from a State might very
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likely come to the High Court, and then no appeal would lie to Her Majesty in Council. I will not argue the legal point with my right hon. friend, but I think it will be found that, inasmuch as any appeal may come from the Supreme Court of a State to the High Court, there will be a very considerable limitation of the right of appeal, because there would be no appeal from the High Court to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. I go on to another point to which I wish to call attention. Although this Bill does not in direct terms limit the right of veto, which is a right, although undoubtedly reserved to the Crown, which must, nevertheless, always be exercised with the most scrupulous care and consideration—although it does not take away that right, it would make it almost a stultification on the part of Her Majesty if the Crown were advised to exercise that right in a matter which we had expressly referred and delegated to the new Parliament. Now, these are the proposals. What are the main objections to these proposals? The matter was under discussion in the convention at Adelaide. When the Australian Premiers were here in the Jubilee year in 1897, I had the honour of discussing the subject with them, to which some public reference was made in Papers presented to this House. The conversations were as a rule in the nature of private discussions, but at the request of Mr. Reid, who was, as it were, the Dean of the representatives from Australia—being the Prime Minister of New South Wales, the mother colony —I handed to him a memorandum on the part of Her Majesty's Government of the amendments on the draft proposal, which we had seen, which we thought were desirable; and I specially called his attention to the probability that the Imperial Parliament would think it its duty to interfere if there were any limitation of the right of appeal. In this memorandum I quoted a passage from a memorandum of the Privy Council, which gave in very succinct terms the main objections to any proposal of the kind. In 1871 it appears a question was raised at the instigation of some of the Australian colonies, and then the Privy Council in their memorandum said—
"The appellate jurisdiction of Her Majesty in Council exists for the benefit of the colonies, and not for that of the mother country; but

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it is impossible to overlook the fact that this jurisdiction is part of Her Majesty's prerogative, and which has been exercised for the benefit of the colonies since the date of their settlement. It is still a powerful link between the colonies and the Crown of Great Britain, and secures to every subject throughout the Empire the right to claim redress from the Throne. It provides a remedy in many cases not falling within the jurisdiction of the ordinary courts of justice. it removes causes from the influence of local prepossession; it affords the means of maintaining the uniformity of the law of England and her colonies which derive a great body of their laws from Great Britain, and enables them, if they think lit, to obtain a decision in the last resort, from the highest judicial authority, composed of men of the greatest legal capacity existing in the metropolis."
The Australian colonies in 1871 recognised the validity of these reasons, and the matter was allowed to drop. It was raised again in 1875, by the passing of the Act by which the Dominion of Canada was created; and again the Privy Council pointed out that—
"this power had been exercised for centuries over all the dependancies of the Empire by the Sovereign of the mother country sitting in Council. By this institution, common to all parts of the Empire beyond the seas, all matters whatever requiring a judical solution may be brought to the cognisance of one Court in which all have a voice. To abolish this controlling power and abandon each colony and dependency to a separate Court of Appeal of its own, would obviously destroy one of the most important ties connecting all parts of the Empire in common obedience to the courts of law, and to renounce the last and most essential mode of exercising the authority of the Crown over its possessions abroad."
There are other reasons, besides these which are stated by the Privy Council, which we have now to bear in mind. This Constitution is to be an Imperial Act, and it is, in substance, the delegation of powers to an authority which is created by the Imperial Parliament. Is it reasonable that when questions arise, as they certainly will arise, as to the interpretation of the powers of the clause by which this authority is delegated, the Imperial power which made the delegation shall not be represented upon the Court which is to give a decision? Then, Sir, there is another point. The terms of the clause are such as certainly to introduce confusion where uniformity is most desired. No appeal is to lie except where the "public interests" of a portion of Her Majesty's dominions outside Australia are concerned. The advice which I have received on the subject goes to show that there may be endless litigation as to the precise nature
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of the cases in which public interests will arise. I believe there is no, legal authoritative definition of what constitutes public interest. I believe it to be extremely difficult to say whether in the case of a number of individuals, subjects of Her Majesty but not, of course, constituting in themselves part of Her Majesty's possessions, whether in that case it would be held that the public interests of Her Majesty's possessions were involved. And if I am rightly informed, therefore, a clause of this kind, instead of lessening litigation, would increase it, and would bring up to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council for its decision case after case in which it was a question whether or not the public interests of Her Majesty's possessions were or were not involved. But there is something still more serious than that. I am not going to dwell upon it, because it is so exclusively legal that I would rather leave it to my hon. friend the Attorney General to explain later in the discussion. But I am told that under this proposal, as it stands, it is almost certain that in the confusion of appeals there might be conflict of authority between the now High Court and the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Can there be anything worse than two co-equal Courts concurrently giving diverse decisions in matters of the greatest importance that may be submitted to them affecting the British Empire? Lastly, there is also the question, to which I have already referred, that the Constitution empowers the new Parliament to deal with maritime jurisdiction, with the Pacific islands, with foreign enlistments, and with external affairs. The responsibility for the action of the Parliament of Australia and its legislation rests with us. We may be brought into a hostile position in regard to any foreign country in consequence of the action of the Colonial Court. Is it reasonable that while we still undertake to cooperate with the colonies in their defence, while the whole strength of the Empire would be brought to bear in order to protect the interests of the colonies— is it reasonable that the question whether or not their Parliament has gone beyond the powers delegated to it, in some matter in which a foreign country—not one of Her Majesty's possessions—is concerned, should be settled without an appeal to the Privy Council? For these and other reasons—-but I have stated the principal

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ones—Her Majesty's Government, as soon as they obtained the Bill from the Premiers, were desirous of making some amendments. There were several points in regard to which we desired to make changes, but this was the principal one; and we cordially invited the Governments of the federating colonies to send delegates to this country to represent them, to give the necessary explanations and to assist us with information in the course of the passage of this Bill through the House. We must joyfully acknowledge that the Australian colonies could not have paid us a greater compliment than to send us gentlemen so able and so representative as those who constitute the delegation; and I am delighted to say that, whatever differences may have arisen upon such points as this to which I have have been referring, our personal relations, ever since their arrival, have been of the most cordial and friendly description. Now, most unfortunately, as we think, when the delegates arrived in this country we found that they held themselves precluded by their mandate— by the fact that the referendum had been taken on the Bill, and that, as they contended, public opinion had been expressed —from accepting any amendments at all. They argued, and they have argued since, that the result of the referendum upon the question whether this Bill should or should not pass, whether there should be federation or should not, did in fact imply agreement with every line and every word of the Bill. Of course, holding that view, it became impossible that we should come to a full agreement. It is true that in the first instance the delegates used language which filled our minds with hope, because they said that they interpreted their mandate as one to get this Bill passed intact if they could, and, if not, with the slightest amendment possible. But unfortunately they have not been able to tell us that the slight amendments which they had in view included anything so important as the amendment which we have thought it our duty to make. In these circumstances the next stop was to ask the Governments of the federating colonies to enlarge the instructions of their delegates, and that was done in a Paper which has been presented to the House. The reply of the Premiers is also in the possession of the House. It is interpreted by the delegates as a confirmation
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and approval of the attitude which they have taken up. Of course, everyone must be allowed to offer his own opinion upon this matter. I confess that to me it does not seem to go as far as the delegates think. It is not, in effect, so irreconcilable, because while it does undoubtedly indicate the desire of the Premiers that the Bill should pass as it stands, while it does undoubtedly indicate their opinion that they have no authority to accept the amendment, it does not seem to me to imply that if Her Majesty's Government, upon its own responsibility, were to make the particular amendment suggested there would be any strong feeling in Australia, but that the people and Governments of Australia would be prepared in ail good feeling to accept the suggestion. We are called upon therefore to make our decision. It has been recognised by none more strongly or more eloquently than by the delegates themselves that the position of the Imperial Parliament is that of trustee for the Empire, and that although the policy of reconstruction may be a different matter, the right of reconstruction undoubtedly rests with us. If, therefore, it were a fact that Australia as a whole was absolutely united on this question, if the clause exactly as it stands had been taken as the irrevocable and final decision of the Governments and the people of Australia, our position would no doubt be a very delicate and very difficult one, because, as I have already pointed out, we recognise fully the unwisdom—I had almost said the impossibility—of pressing views on great self-governing communities to which they are absolutely opposed. However great we might think the mistake that they are making, and however great we might think the injury to the Empire, still we should have to set against that the danger of interfering with those rights which they regard as their undoubted palladium. I do not know to what conclusion we should have come if that had been the position. We should have had to consider not the wishes of Australia alone. We should have had to consider also that, if we accept their view as to right of appeal, our decision will react upon other colonies just as much entitled to consideration as the great colonies of Australia—on Canada, on South Africa, on New Zealand. I read the other day a statement attributed to a distinguished man—to Sir Henry de

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Villiers, Chief Justice of the Cape, and recently appointed member of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council. Sir Henry de Villiers deprecated any change in the existing right of appeal. He went on to say that if such a change were made it would be impossible, or it would be unlikely, that either South Africa or other parts of the British Empire would rest content without a similar, or some equal, change being made in reference to their position also. What would be the result? The result would be the weakening and, probably, ultimately the destruction of the Court of Appeal for the Empire, and this Court of Appeal, whatever defects it may have possessed, has, at all events, worked well in the past. It has been acknowledged to have been of importance and value to the great colonies, and it has within it the germs of a still greater, a still more important, and a still more beneficent institution. Now I come to what is perhaps the most pleasant portion of my task. Fortunately, Her Majesty's Government are not placed in this difficult position. We have not to choose between what we firmly believe to be the interests of the Empire on the one hand and the united and absolutely convinced opinion of Australia on the other. For my part, I do not understand at all that in assenting to the Bill by a referendum the majority who voted for it intended to preclude the Imperial Parliament from considering the Bill and from making amendments. On the contrary, I have information from some of the Governments that their intention was exactly the reverse, and that they always believed that this great mother of Parliaments, as a proof of its goodwill, would give its best consideration to this important matter, and, if it saw fit, would suggest amendments and changes. It is putting too great a strain on the principle of the referendum to say that a referendum on a Bill like this, which contains such an enormous number of difficult and different propositions, carries with it assent to every one of those propositions. To say anything of the sort would be directly contrary to the argument used by some of the representatives themselves by which the referendum was carried. The people of Australia were told—" It is not so much your duty at the present moment to look to the individual parts of the Bill, to this clause or to that section of a clause to which you may possibly
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take exception. You have got to consider this great work as a whole, and if as a whole you agree to it and are willing to accept it, then vote for the referendum." That is the argument, but that is an argument entirely inconsistent with the present view that the referendum carries with it absolute agreement with every line of the Bill. That that is so is proved also by the action of the great colony of Queensland. Queensland accepted the referendum. Queensland, by one of the largest majorities, accepted this Bill. And yet the delegate of Queensland, the Government of Queensland, the Ministers of Queensland, and the people of Queens land are at the present time urging, with all the strength in their power, that Her Majesty's Government shall restore the right of appeal. Queensland, one of the five original federating States; Queens land, represented by one of the Premier; who refused the other day to enlarge the power of the delegate; Queensland, who has sent to us a delegate in common with the other colonies, is entirely opposed to the view taken by four of the delegates and is strongly in favour of the line which Her Majesty's Government venture to recommend to the House. go much further. It is not merely a question of Queensland. Since this matter has been discussed here, this particular question of appeal—not the Bill as a whole—has been raised in Australia as well as in this country. It has beer raised as a point for separate discussion and decision; and, while I do not want to exaggerate my own case, I can conclusively show to the House that there it no such unanimity among the four colonies of Australia whose delegates are pressing this change as would justify us in sacrificing the interests of the Empire to the views which are formulated in the Bill. The clause was introduced after lengthened discussions in convention after convention, in the coarse of which different conclusions were arrived at at different times. The final decision was arrived at by comparatively small majorities. I think only thirty-six members were present out of a convention of nearly sixty members. I do not doubt, however, that it represented the view of the convention at that time, but I may point out that Queensland was then absent, and that if the Queensland delegates, twelve in number, had been present, the decision of the Confer-

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ence would have been reversed. Australasia has seven colonies. Six of them are federating now. One of them is contemplating the possibility of federation. Of those seven colonies the Governments of three are strongly in favour of our view. The proportion of opinion as represented by the public statements of the Governments concerned in Australasia is as three to four. But that is not all. The Premier of Queensland declares that the Government and the people of Queensland are strongly in favour of the alteration. In Western Australia the Ministers are unanimously in favour of the amendment of Clause 74. They are of opinion—
"that by the possession of one Court of Appeal for the whole British race, whose decisions are final and binding on all the Courts of the Empire, there is constituted a bond between all British people which should be maintained inviolate as the keystone of Imperial unity."
The Government of New Zealand say that—
"in the best interests of the Empire the right of appeal on constitutional grounds is one of the strongest links binding us to the mother country."
That is sufficient, I think, to show the character of the opinion in three out of the seven colonies. But what about the remainder? What about New South Wales? New South Wales is the mother colony. When the Constitution was submitted to the Legislature of New South Wales both Houses passed resolutions urging amendments to maintain the right of appeal. They were subsequently outvoted in the convention, but their opinion remains, and I think it is also the opinion of the majority of the people. Yesterday I received a telegram in which it is stated that the Prime Minister is reported by the newspapers to have made a speech in which he emphasised his loyalty to federation — at one time, I believe, he was opposed to federation—and declared that at the recent conference of Premiers at Melbourne the Premiers took a constitutional course; that they also intimated that they did not think the alteration suggested by me would jeopardise the Bill; that Her Majesty's Government would probably amend the Bill if only on account of the desirability of making the appeal uniform in all British colonies, without which uniformity the rights of
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British subjects would differ in different places; and that they hoped Her Majesty's Government would not amend the Bill in any other clause, as, if any other changes wore attempted, it would be a source of great danger to the rest. That, of course, is a condensed report, and I give it for what it is worth, but certainly the implication of that report is that if the changes were confined to the particular change I am advocating there would be no serious objection on the part of New South Wales. Then I come to a remarkable expression of opinion, that of the Chief Justices for the Colonies in Australasia. The seven Chief Justices are unanimously in favour of the maintenance of the right of appeal. In the newspapers this morning I saw a letter from my right hon. friend Mr. Kingston, the delegate from South Australia, in which there were expressions which I very much regret and which I am inclined to hope he himself will regret having rather hastily used. He suggests that the Chief Justices of Australia are moved in the opinion they have given by the hope of being appointed to the new Court of Appeal which may hereafter be created. [Laughter and cheers.] Let me remind my right hon. friend and also those Members of the House who are inclined to cheer that statement that one of the arguments most eloquently pressed on us by the delegates in their memorandum is that the Bench in Australasia is as pure, as high-minded, and has as great judicial capacity as can be found anywhere in the British dominions. We have welcomed that assertion. We agree with that assertion, but then you cannot, at the same time, apply to this self-same Bench the sordid and unworthy motive which has been suggested. I do not believe there is any motive at all, either in the opinion which has been given by the Chief Justices, or in the opinion which has been given on the other side by lawyers who possibly may profit by retaining the appeal at home. In neither case do I believe that either party has been moved in the slightest degree by any feeling other than a desire that the best interests of Australia should be considered. I say it is a most remarkable and a very strong feature in my case that the Chief Justices, who are all men of the highest capacity, who have enjoyed the greatest respect and popularity in Australia, and who are recog-

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nised here as most distinguished men, should be unanimously in favour of the alteration. I inquired about newspaper opinion. I knew no other way of getting at popular opinion; and what do I find? I find that the enormous preponderance of newspaper opinion is in favour of the repeal of this clause. Just before I entered this House I received a telegram from Victoria, the other great colony, next in population to New South Wales. This telegram, which is from the officer administering the Government, says—
" The amendment of Section 74 of the Federation Bill is vigorously supported in all the newspapers of Victoria to-day. I have ascertained the opinion of as many trustworthy persona of all classes as possible, I have not met one opposed to your amendment. If the amendment is substantially confined to Section 74 you will be enthusiastically approved throughout all Victoria."
The Chambers of Commerce of Sydney, Adelaide, and Brisbane have all communicated through the Prime Ministers of these colonies urging the maintenance of the appeal; public bodies like the Melbourne Metropolitan Board of Works, representatives of trade in public meetings, representatives of the Bar, the banks, insurance corporations, and others —representative bodies whose interests are, of course, largely concerned in this matter—all are unanimously in favour of maintaining the appeal, and, to the best of my knowledge and belief, there has not been held one single meeting throughout Australia against the proposal. I do not wish to attach too much importance to what may be one-sided opinion. I do not deny, in fact, I most readily admit, that there is a strong opinion in favour of the Bill which is not represented by any of the quotations I have read to the House, and which has not come to me in the course of these discussions except from the statements of the delegates who are in this country. I admit that there is a strong, and I have no doubt an equally patriotic, opinion; but what I say, and what I think the House will be absolutely convinced of, is that there is no such unanimity as should make us hesitate in a matter of this vast importance, at all events to take time, and for the present, at any rate, retain the right of appeal as it now exists. It is under these circumstances that I have no hesitation in recommending the amendments—very small in point of extent, involving the alteration of only a few words or a few
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lines, but no doubt substantial in importance—-which will preserve for Australia | precisely the same right of appeal as is now enjoyed by Canada, South Africa, and India. I believe that it is called for by the interests of the Empire, and I trust and believe that it will be accepted by the people of Australia as made in a spirit of co-operation and not at all of antagonism, and in full belief in our sincere interest in and approval of the great work which they have carried out.
MR. ASQUITH: Are the amendments set out in the Blue-book?
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No; but I think they are substantially the same. There is only one other point to which I wish to call the attention of the House. In the conferences which Her Majesty's Government held with the delegates from Australia allusion was made to a desire which has long been entertained by Her Majesty's Government to reconsider the constitution of the Supreme Court of the Empire. What the Lord Chancellor, as representing specially the Government in this matter, has had in view has been an amalgamation of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council with the appeal jurisdiction of the House of Lords. But the House will readily see—the legal Members perhaps more readily than others—that this would be a very great change, involving very difficult and important constitutional questions, about which it would be of the highest importance to consult Canada and the other colonies and dependencies interested. Therefore, in this matter, as in the matter I previously referred to of the interpretation of colonial laws within the Act, we have to provide for the immediate future without prejudice to what may be done hereafter. I would remind the House that the present position is not satisfactory. When we came into office, we found a Bill prepared by my predecessor by which it was proposed to call to the Privy Council one representative of Canada, South Africa, and Australia to assist in the deliberations of the Privy Council. I found that scheme in the pigeon-holes of the Colonial Office. Her Majesty's Government adopted it because, although they thought it was not satisfactory, still it was a tentative step which would give us some experience, and seemed to meet the wish, already ex-

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pressed, of the colonies. That was passed in the first session of the present Parliament. The result has been as we expected. It made no proposal for paying these gentlemen. The Australian colonies and the other colonies concerned—I am not quite certain about Canada—did not propose to pay themselves, and that confined the selection, and the gentlemen actually selected were Judges of high distinction, but who were still engaged in judicial functions in the several colonies. The result was that they could not be here permanently to deal with colonial cases in which they were interested. Another subsidiary result was that, when they were here and a colonial case came up, it might be one with which they had already dealt in their judicial capacity in the colonies. Practically, therefore, although some of these Judges—I believe all of them—have taken their seats and have assisted in the deliberations of the Judicial Committee, we have not secured, by means of that Act, such a permanent constitution of the Judicial Committee as would make it certain that on every occasion when a colonial case was involved there was a colonial Judge with full knowledge of local conditions well qualified to advise his colleagues. Therefore, what we propose, pending further consideration which must be given to any greater scheme, is to appoint for seven years a representative from each of these colonies and India, to be members of the Privy Council, who shall also act during that period as Lords of Appeal, and upon whom will be conferred life peerages, so that they may continue to sit in the House of Lords, although they will not act as Judges after the term of their service has expired. It may be that those services will be renewed, and provision may be taken to renew them if thought desirable. The Judges so appointed will be paid the same salaries as the Lords of Appeal are now paid, and payment will be made at the cost of the Imperial Parliament. Sir, that is the proposal which I hope will be submitted to the other House of Parliament in a very few days, and which I hope will be approved by Parliament as a whole. I feel I ought to apologise to the House. I have travelled over a great number of subjects in the course of this long review of an intricate subject. I have now only to ask the House to consent to the introduction of this Bill. I
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hope they will be content subsequently to pass it exactly as it has been introduced. I am quite certain that no more important measure of legislation has ever been presented to Parliament, and that nothing throughout the whole course of the Queen's reign will be a more beneficent feature in that long and glorious history.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to introduce a Bill to constitute the Commonwealth of Australia."—(Mr. Secretary Chamberlain.)
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The full explanation of the right hon. Gentleman who has just sat down has justified the alarm with which many of us on this side of the House contemplated the possibility of this Bill being introduced under the ton minutes Rule. It was most desirable that the right hon. Gentleman should have an opportunity of making a full declaration of his policy, and I am sure all who have listened will not only admire, but profit by the extremely clear and full account he has given of the past history of the question, and of the details of the present proposal. But I wish that on this occasion we could adopt the celebrated Rule in one portion, but not the other. I think it would best represent the public desire, and certainly the interests of the House, that the right hon. Gentleman should have, as he has had, an opportunity for this full explanation, but that the speeches which are to follow should be as few and as brief as possible. As far as I am concerned, I have no intention whatever of occupying time with any elaborate analysis of all the proposals which the right hon. Gentleman has made. The right hon. Gentleman said that no doubt many would envy him the opportunity he enjoyed of bringing in this Bill. We all reciprocate that. It is not difficult to interpret the feeling of our countrymen on the introduction of this measure. There has been a deep, almost an affectionate, interest in the efforts which have been made so long by the statesmen and people of Australia to give themselves the form and status of a nation, and it has boon with the utmost satisfaction that in the course of this great constitutional movement we have been able to discern a total absence of any shade, tinge, or trace of impatience or reluctance with regard to

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the relations between this country and the colonies. That, indeed, was no more than might be expected. The close, and ever closer, intercommunication, and the exchange of domicile constantly going on, the community of interest between them, the mutual pride which we have in each other, all help to strengthen year by year the original tie of blood and kinship. The wise policy which has been pursued of allowing these great, vigorous, young communities what is practically complete independence to administer their affairs has had an admirable result. The freer they have been from interference or patronage on our part, the warmer has been their sentiment towards this country, and I need hardly point out, for it has been prominently before us of late, that they have again and again offered their most precious possession—the lives of their sons—whenever they thought the mother country needed them. Therefore we need not be surprised that among men of all political opinions and parties in this country there is but one common desire—that this great constitutional scheme, designed and well calculated as it is to give strength and prosperity not only to Australia, but to the British Empire, should take effect with as little delay as possible. Up to this I have spoken of satisfaction and a common feeling of joy and common interest. But there is something more. I am afraid there will be widely felt a feeling of deep regret and disappointment that the Government have felt themselves obliged not to accept the proposition in its entirety, though it had received the stamp of the approval of the whole Australian people. If what is proposed was to be done, it surely is not now it should have been done, but two or three years ago. A prudent and careful Minister would have set himself to bring about a harmonious understanding and arrangement upon the points of difference which existed. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of conferences in the Jubilee year, and quoted from a memorandum, but that is not enough. Negotiations went on in Australia, conventions were held, and the proceedings were reported at great length, draft Bills were published, different amendments were published and the arguments by which they were supported or rejected were published, and everyone knew all about it, but the Government did nothing. They reserved action until the people of Australia had committed
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themselves by solemn plebiscite to the provisions of the Bill, and then they insist on a change, thus—in effect, though I agree not in intention—giving an open rebuff to the Australian people. ["No, no! "] In effect, not in intention, giving an open rebuff —- ["No, no!"] —and flouting the representations of the delegates of the people. ["No, no!"] Now, the right hon. Gentleman has endeavoured to make good in his speech that which he has put at considerable length into the Blue-book; he has tried to dispose of the validity, the genuineness of the authority of the opinion expressed by and on the part of the Australian people; and he has thought it right as Colonial Minister—I do not know that it has ever been done before— to go behind the appointed representatives of the people. He invites his Governors to go about picking up gossip, he extorts opinions, even in some cases from unwilling lips, he gives a number of messages from chambers of commerce, from banks, and other institutions. But what is the value of these opinions unless we know what are their opinions upon the general question, and unless we know whether those who give them are opposed to federation altogether, or are chafing under the rejection of their own views? I think many of these opinions quoted to-night are vitiated somewhat by the fact that they miss the real object at issue. We have heard of opinions in favour of retaining the appeal to the Privy Council, but the question at issue is, Are we prepared to interpret this instrument as it is interpreted by the people of Australia? Then the right hon. Gentleman quotes extracts from newspapers. Well, we know how newspaper opinion can be and has been worked, not only in this, but in other instances. We should like to know something more about these newspapers. In one colony the right hon. Gentleman is opposed by a Conservative free trade journal, but supported by the Liberal protectionist journal. The description is confusing, and we should like to be better informed as to the ground on which we stand, before we accept in bulk newspaper criticism and opinion. This gathering up of opinions behind the backs of the delegates representing the Australian people is the proceeding of some eager local political partisan, and not such as we are accustomed to see on the part of a calm British Minister dealing

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with a great constitutional development on the part of loyal and intelligent colonists. Well, this is not the stage at which such questions can be approximately discussed. We shall have a time— those of us especially who are learned in the law and competent to take part in these debates on the ground of their legal learning—we shall have a time to consider what the right hon. Gentleman has said; but simple people, and I class myself among them, not being in the least learned in the law, will ask why should it be so dangerous to leave the interpretation of the Commonwealth Act to those best acquainted with the circumstances and the state of feeling out of which it has arisen? Surely those who have framed it, who have seen the growth of the whole question, know what was intended when the Act was passed by the Australian people, and are better able to judge of the spirit and intention than persons who, though more learned, have no such acquaintance with local feeling. It is enough for me to say in the meantime that, even if all that legal ingenuity can urge in favour of the step taken by the Government were true, there still would remain the formidable objection that, even if it were a desirable thing to accomplish, and even if there were some little prospective danger to be warded off, it is not worth the consequences that may follow from the step the Government are taking for the sake of what is, after all, a small technical point. In order to overcome a difficulty that might be otherwise met we are to break in upon a solemn instrument, which represents not only the will of the Australian people, but a covenant and contract entered into by the colonies among themselves. We, are to break in upon that and throw the whole question of federation back into the field of political agitation. Will it not involve a further appeal to the Australian people? ["No."] I am disposed to form a contrary opinion. We are to deprive our action of the grace attaching to a hearty and confident reception; we sow the seeds of complaint and dissatisfaction little favourable to lasting unity. Therefore, as far as we on this side of the House are concerned, we will not be parties to taking the line the Government and the right hon. Gentleman propose. We will at the proper time support such an Amendment as may in some measure, at all events, modify the great mistake in Imperial
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policy which has been disclosed to us to-night.
MR. FABER: I must crave the indulgence of the House upon this, my first occasion of addressing it, and I must ask the pardon of the House for Venturing to speak in so important a debate, My only excuse is that the subject is not an unfamiliar one to me, inasmuch as I was the Registrar of the Privy Council for nine years, and during that time all appeals from the colonies and from India passed through my hands. As regards the question of the new Constitution for Australia, I think that all that is necessary for me to say is, that I most heartily congratulate Australia on the fact that she is about, at last, to obtain the object of her desire. But the proposed limitation of the appeal to the Privy Council falls altogether into a different category. That is a matter which concerns, not Australia alone, but Australia in relation to this country; and, more than that, concerns our whole Empire. The Privy Council appeal is the right, in the last resort, of every subject of Her Majesty's Dominions beyond the seas to petition the Sovereign for justice; it is the prerogative right of the Sovereign to hear all such matters of complaint, and to grant such redress as the Sovereign may think fit. The Sovereign delegates the hearing to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, who report their opinion to the Sovereign; the Sovereign confirms their Report by an Order in Council; until so confirmed the Report has no validity whatever. It has been found necessary, from time to time, to cut down and modify the right of appeal of the subject. Throughout our Empire abroad, speaking generally, the subject has no right of appeal, unless the value of the matter in issue is ,£500 or over. Otherwise, special leave to appeal must be obtained from the Privy Council before an appeal can be brought. In the case of the Supreme Court of Canada, the subject has no right of appeal to the Privy Council at all. Special leave to appeal must in every case be obtained, and until that is obtained, the subject is precluded from any appeal so far as the Privy Council is concerned. But this is the first occasion on which it has been sought to cut down the prerogative right of the Sovereign to admit any appeal whatever, as she may think fit, to her Privy Council. I

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think we shall be all agreed, both here and in Australia, that such a course ought not to be taken without cogent reasons being shown for it. What are these reasons? The first reason which has been adduced is that the people of Australia wish it. But are we quite justified in arriving at this conclusion? I know that a Bill of 128 Clauses was submitted to five of the colonies of Australia by a referendum, and that those colonies assented to it by large majorities, but did they do anything more than say "yea" to the great question, " Shall Australia be federated?." Are we justified in assuming from their answer that they approved of the Privy Council clause in the Bill? I venture to doubt whether most of those who answered "yea" knew that there was this Privy Council clause in the Bill at all, or if they did know, whether they were aware of the meaning of it. I do not think the Privy Council question is "popular" question at all. It is a question for the experts of Australia, and the experts are deeply divided upon it. Legal opinion in Australia, so far as we know, seems to be largely in favour of retaining the Privy Council appeal. In these circumstances, are we justified in making a radical change of this kind, on the ground that it is desired by the Australian people? I do not think that we arc. Another point that is taken is that all that Australia desires is the right to interpret her own Constitution; but the latter part of Clause 74 of the Bill goes far beyond this, for it provides that the Parliament of Australia may make laws, further limiting the Royal prerogative; and under such a power, that Parliament may at any time cut away the prerogative altogether, and certainly destroy the Privy Council appeal. It is put forward, in favour of this right to interpret her own Constitution, that the Australian Courts are the best judges in such a matter, and that Australia ought to have such a right, as a matter of self-government. But is it a matter of self-government at all? The colonies of Australia have been governing themselves, in the fullest sense of the word, for years; and yet there has been all the time an appeal to the Privy Council, which has worked perfectly smoothly, and has interfered in no way with self-government, for the reason that the two move altogether on different
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planes. Is not the Dominion of Canada self-governing? There there is the free, unrestricted prerogative of the Sovereign to admit any appeal to the Privy Council she may think fit, In 1867 the British North America Act was passed, which incorporated the various provinces of Canada into one Dominion. That Act ascribed certain topics of legislation to the Dominion legislature, and certain topics to the legislatures of the Provinces. Questions constantly arose, between the Dominion and the Provinces, as to whether a particular topic of legislation fell within the powers of the Dominion or of a Province; large questions, in which the people of Canada were deeply interested—questions of education, of liquor-licence, of boundaries, of the rights of the Indians, among many others. These questions came, in the last resort, before the Privy Council, and I think the people of Canada were glad that they did, and were well satisfied with the decisions given. I should confidently appeal to the people of Canada to-day, to say whether or no they would prefer to keep the Privy Council appeal. [feel certain that their answer would be in the affirmative. Moreover, Clause 74 of the Bill, as I understand it, will not work, and is almost sure to lead to friction between the High Court of Australia and the Privy Council. May I take, if I am not wearying the House, just two or throe cases? Suppose a case, involving the interpretation of the Constitution, is brought in the Supreme Court of the State of New South Wales, as it may be, and that the judgment of that Court satisfies neither party; suppose that each side appeals, one to the High Court of Australia, the other direct to the Privy Council, and that the two tribunals differ; both will be final in the matter, though they conflict with each other. Which is to govern? Take another similar case involving the interpretation of the Constitution, which might easily arise. An action, on a question arising on the Constitution, is brought in the Supreme Court of the State of New South Wales. An action is brought, altogether independently, in the Supreme Court of the State of Victoria, happening to involve the same point; one case is appealed to the High Court of Australia and the other to the Privy Council. The two Courts take divergent views. Again you will have judicial chaos. Take

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another case. Clause 74 provides that there is to be no appeal to the Privy Council from the High Court of Australia in matters involving the interpretation of the Constitution. But who is to decide whether it is a matter involving the Constitution or not? The High Court of Australia may think that it is and may decide the question finally; but the party aggrieved by the decision may present a petition to the Privy Council on the ground that the interpretation of the Constitution of Australia is not involved, and the Privy Council may take that view and grant leave to appeal, and hear the appeal, and the decision of the Privy Council may be different to the decision of the High Court of Australia. In such a case as that you will not only have a difference of opinion, but direct conflict between the two tribunals, the High Court of Australia considering that the Privy Council has assumed jurisdiction that does not belong to it. Exactly the same case may arise in the interpretation of "public interests" of Her Majesty's Dominions outside the Commonwealth referred to by Clause 74. The High Court of Australia may decide that public interests outside the Commonwealth are not concerned, whereas the Privy Council may hold that public interests are concerned. There again you would have a direct conflict between the two tribunals. I would much sooner see the Privy Council appeal done away with altogether, and the High Court of Australia made supreme in all matters, than I would run the risk of the jurisdiction of these two tribunals so overlapping as to be almost certain to come into collision. Then there is a different objection which has been taken to the Privy Council appeal, and I allude to it because the subject has come within my own experience. It has been said that there are long delays in the Privy Council. My memory tells me that, so far as delay is concerned, in bringing a case before the Privy' Council, that criticism is scarcely justified by the facts. I know there have been long delays in cases from Australia and elsewhere, but they have generally taken place in the colony from which the appeal has come, and before the record of the proceedings has reached the Privy Council office. It frequently takes a long.; time to prepare the record in the colony, and that is where the real delay, as a rule, occurs. But when the record
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has arrived at the Privy Council office there is no delay in bringing the matter on for hearing, unless the parties them solves delay it. If the criticism means that there is delay in delivering judgment, then I must confess that there have been delays. But I do not think that fault is confined to the Privy Council alone. I think that many of our Courts in this country, and perhaps in the colonies, are equally open to that criticism. I venture to doubt whether judges are sufficiently alive to the serious inconvenience which is caused to suitors by delaying judgment in an appeal for sometimes many months after the hearing. Another objection which has been made to the Privy Council appeal is its expense. I know that all litigation is expensive and that law is a luxury of the most expensive nature. I do not think, however, that an appeal to the Privy Council is any more expensive than an appeal to the House of Lords, and I venture to doubt whether it is any more expensive than an appeal will be to the High Court of Australia. Another objection taken—and the most serious one of all—is, that the Privy Council is not a strong enough tribunal; that, in the words of one of the Delegates, the Privy Council is not a tribunal that this country would be satisfied with. In answer to the latter part of that criticism I may say that for years past the Privy Council has been a stronger tribunal than the House of Lords, which is the final Court in this country To-day the Privy Council consists not only of all the Lords who sit judicially in House of Lords cases, but of many members besides, including three distinguished judges from Canada, Australia, and South Africa. The real trouble does not lie there, but it lies in the fact that when the Privy Council and the House of Lords sit at the same time, as they frequently do, it is very difficult to make up two strong Courts, with the result that one is apt to be sacrificed to the other. There is only one remedy for this, and that is, that there ought to be more paid judges. We have relied far too much in the past upon gratuitous assistance, which has been nobly given, and which nobody desires to criticise. But when you have paid judges you have, of course, a right to call for their services, which you have not when they are unpaid. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies, who introduced this Bill, has

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foreshadowed the change that is going to be made. I myself hope the Privy Council will not be incorporated in the House of Lords. I am sure such a scheme would not be agreeable to India. The natives of India set great store by the fact that their appeals are made to the Queen Empress. Nor do I think it would be agreeable to the colonies. There are many Parliaments in the British Empire, but there is only one Crown, and I think the colonies, if they had to choose between the two, would prefer a strong Privy Council, which is the Court of the Sovereign, to the House of Lords, which is a Court of our Parliament. In my view the time has now come for the establishment of a new Court altogether, which would be neither the Privy Council nor the House of Lords. What I should like to see established would be a Court entitled "Her Majesty's Supreme Court of the "British Empire." Such a Court would satisfy both the colonies and India. Let it consist of eleven paid judges at least:— the Lord Chancellor, six Lords of Appeal from this country, three Lords of Appeal from the colonies, and one from India. Divide the Court into two divisions, and let the two divisions sit at the same time. Let one take the English, Irish, and Scotch appeals, and let the other deal with Colonial and Indian appeals. Let the quorum in each case be five; in a Court of final resort, such as this, I think the parties are entitled to have their cases tried by five judges at least. I know this will cost money, but it is worth it, if it is worth keeping the appeal from the colonies to this country. Running the Empire on the cheap is an expensive process in the end. I say it is worth keeping the appeal to this country. The Privy Council appeal in the past has been the strongest bond of union between this country and the colonies. A Canadian barrister once remarked to me that it was the one link between Canada and this country. I know that the old idea of treating our colonies as encumbrances has passed away for over. We all look upon them now as a joy and a glory— aye, and in our hour of need a strong help also. Thanks to the Secretary of State for the Colonies, the Premier of Canada, Lord Strathcona, and eminent men in Australia and New Zealand, the fire of patriotism burns in our colonies with a pure clear flame which is the wonder of the world. In South
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Africa, men from Canada, New Zealand, and Australia are fighting side by side with men from England, Ireland, and Scotland, under one flag. With the copious outpouring of their blood they are sealing our Empire together. In the words of a great orator—
"Their blood has flowed in the same stream and drenched the same Held; when the chill morning dawned their dead lay cold and stark together; in the same deep pit their bodies were deposited; the green corn of spring breaks from their commingled dust; the dew falls from heaven upon their union in the grave."
While they in their lives and their deaths are joining our Empire together, do not let us at home be putting it asunder, as we shall be doing if we strike at the Privy Council appeal. The Privy Council, or some such Appeal Court as I have indicated, is the keystone upon which, if we work wisely, we may build up the great edifice of Imperial Federation.
SIR CHARLES DILKE: I hope the Attorney General will be able to answer a question with which I wish to begin. He probably has the amendments before him, and I wish to know whether the two main amendments placed before us by the Secretary of State for the Colonies are the only two substantial amendments. My reason for beginning with this ques-is that on page 19 of the Blue-book a third substantial amendment is foreshadowed, but has not been alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman. It concerns merchant shipping, and I wish to know whether it is to be made or not.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,): The two amendments mentioned by my right hon. friend the Colonial Secretary are the only two amendments of a substantial character.
SIR CHARLKS DILKE: And the words as to the Commonwealth Constitution being in force on merchant shipping from Commonwealth port to Commonwealth port are to remain in the Bill.
SIR ROBERT FINLAY: Yes.
SIR CHARLES DILKE: I am glad to hoar that. It is a very excellent thing that the grounds of difference should be narrowed down to two, which,

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in my opinion, are substantially one, and that this question of merchant shipping is not to be raised on this occasion. The two points which the Secretary of State for the Colonies has placed before us to-night are those which he thinks so important that, while waiving smaller matters, it is necessary that we should enter into a sort of friendly conflict concerning them with the Australian people, who have pronounced in a referendum in favour of this Bill. The first of these points refers to the application of the Colonial Laws Validity Act, and the other refers to the special leave to appeal. No one denies the applicability to all the colonies of the principle of the Colonial Laws Validity Act. The Secretary of State in his introductory speech alluded to it as being thought to be unnecessary by the Australians, and he argued that it was necessary. But how in the world is it possible to attach the importance to this matter which the Government does, to enter into a conflict regarding it, and to render a reopening of the whole constitutional question in Australia necessary, when the Secretary of State for the Colonies himself tells us that all the Colonial Laws Validity Act does is to confirm the already existing law of the Empire which is the law without it, and to preserve portions of Colonial Acts which otherwise would fall to the ground. The Colonial Secretary to-night explained the meaning of the Colonial Laws Validity Act. The effect of this Act was most ably argued by the light hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth in one of his letters, signed "Historicus," in The Times. The Colonial Secretary adopts his view, and says that the principle of the Colonial Laws Validity Act is that it is an enabling statute to preserve portions of colonial laws which otherwise would have fallen through by reason of conflict with our laws. Where is the necessity to enter into a conflict as regards the applicability of that Act to Australia? The principle exists, everyone admits it, and no colony can divest itself of it. It is accepted by every Court and by the representatives of every colony, and why, therefore, enter into a conflict regarding it? Is it worth while to run all the risks which an alteration of the Act would imply either with regard to the Colonial Laws Validity Act or to the whole question of appeal, both being in reality
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closely connected? The Colonial Secretary argued that we must rely upon statute and that we must run the risk of altering the Bill as it stands, because we cannot rely on what he calls the Veto. He implied in his speech that the Veto in the case of great dominions such as the Commonwealth cannot be applied. That is not the case. I ventured to move to day for a continuation of the Return issued in 1894 on this very question. It will be seen from that Return that a considerable number of Colonial Acts have either been reserved, which was the old practice, or contained a suspensory clause providing that they should not come into force until they have been scrutinised at home. In some cases controversy arose and the Acts were dropped. My point against these changes is that they are unnecessary. It is not necessary to introduce the Colonial Laws Validity Act, because it is admitted that its principle applies to all the Colonies, and would be enforced by every Court in the Empire, and with regard to any other dangers they are amply guarded against by the power of reservation or by a suspensory clause, or else they concern the Executive Government, and are entirely outside the question of appeal. That is my case against these changes. We should be able to judge the cases likely to arise in Australia by looking at the cases which have arisen in Canada. These have been cases concerning copyright, merchant shipping, and marriage with a deceased wife's sister. i Now, as regards copyright, there has never been any conflict between us and the Australians, and there is not likely to be any conflict. It is a question not likely to arise in Australia, although it has risen frequently in Canada. The case of merchant shipping is one which has arisen in Canada and may arise in Australia, but it is amply provided for by means of the power of reservation or by a suspensory clause, as in the case of Canada. There cannot be absolute uniformity in all our merchant shipping laws. That is gone beyond recovery. We have different codes in India and in Now Zealand. In New Zealand especially there are enormous differences, as an advanced principle with regard to merchant shipping has been adopted in her laws, with reference to the Manning Scale, and the provisions with regard to rate of wage, and these have been conceded to New Zealand without any reservation of

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the Act. Until you get uniformity of legislation in large groups of colonies, all the dangers you apprehend are amply provided against, either by reservation or a suspensory clause. Remember that under this Constitution there is power given to the Governor-General to send the Bill back to the Parliament of the Commonwealth with suggestions for amendment, and of course in such a case it is certain that such amendments would be a matter for discussion between the Home Government and the Commonwealth Government, or for greater security the Act would of course be reserved. With regard to the question of appeal, I ask why many of the arguments addressed to us to-night should have been addressed to us at all. How do they strengthen the case for the proposed amendment? On page 26 of the Blue-book the House will find two main arguments given in favour of the change. One has been mentioned to-night, namely, foreign enlistment; the other has not been mentioned, namely, the case of merchant shipping, to which I have already alluded. If, however, there is real danger in such a case as foreign enlistment, that danger and other dangers to which I have alluded will not be guarded against by a reservation of the law or by a suspensory clause. It is the danger of action by the Executive Government of the colony—that is the danger we have to deal with, and no power of appeal, nor any of the amendments proposed to this Bill, can affect that danger. We can only trust in such matters to the good sense of the people of the colonies, as we have trusted to it in the past. Two cases of such conflict have arisen. One was when two Australian colonies made a statute forbidding entrance into the colonies of time-expired or pardoned convicts. That statute was disallowed, and the Executive Government proceeded to act on the disallowed Act as if it were actually in force. That was very dangerous action on the part of the Executive Government, and one calculated to make very serious trouble. That is the real danger we have to avoid, and none of the amendments to this Bill cover such a case as that. The other case which occurred had reference to the Fenian informers who were not allowed to land, and was again the action of the Executive Government. It is argued that many of
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these dangers may be guarded against by an appeal to the Queen in Council. I confess I cannot see how they can be guarded against in such a way. With reference to danger arising out of the Foreign Enlistment Act I think it would be far better to stop at once the dangerous clauses in any such Act rather than wait until feeling was exasperated and actual danger had arisen in the colonies. These are dangers which can be guarded against at the time, but they are not dangers which when conflict has arisen and when passion is aroused can be got rid of by an appeal to the Queen in Council. The Colonial Secretary tonight told the House that when the Colonial Prime Ministers were here at the time of the Jubilee he handed them an amended Bill showing the changes which he would like to have introduced into the Constitution Bill on the question of appeal. It must be remembered that the undoubted intention of Sir James Abbott, when in March, 1898, he moved amendments which placed Clause 74 in its present form, was to carry out what the Colonial Prime Ministers believed were the Colonial Secretary's wishes as mentioned at the time of the Jubilee. These amendments were made and afterwards revised by the drafting committee with the intention of meeting the views of the Colonial Secretary; but if the amendments which were then introduced did not meet his view, why did not the Colonial Secretary again correspond with the Prime Ministers and those responsible for the drafting of this Constitution and say that the amendments were not sufficient? An immense time passed, step after step was taken in Australia, but no step was taken by the Colonial Secretary from 1897 until two or three months ago. I think we must agree with what was said by the Leader of the Opposition on that point, namely, that it would have been more courteous to the colonies and wiser in the interests of the changes which the right hon. Gentleman wished to obtain if the Colonial Secretary had made some communication between the date of the Jubilee and that of the Bill reaching this country in its present form. The right hon. Gentleman said to-night that the link of the Privy Council appeal was very precious in the interests of the Empire, and though he did not go so far as to use language as strong as that which has fallen from the hon. Member

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for York, yet he quoted from a memorandum of the Privy Council itself very strong language indeed with reference to the value of the tie. In the Blue-book the right hon. Gentleman used an argument which he has not placed before the House. On page 28 of the Blue-book he expresses the view that the Bill is a retrograde measure, on account of its provision with regard to appeal, as far as Imperial federation is concerned. I should have been glad to have heard some attempt to justify that statement. I cannot conceive it to be the case. To my mind the whole controversy in which we are now engaged has exactly the opposite effect. If there is one proposal more than another that I have advocated in this House it is that we should prepare in time of peace for what may come upon us in time of war, by cooperation between our colonies and ourselves. I believe joint action of that kind would be formed if we had been able to accept this Bill without amendment, and if there were no actual danger to the Empire in accepting this Bill it would be far better to have taken the Bill as it stands. Instead of saying that the Bill would be a retrograde step as far as Imperial Federation is concerned it would have been better if the right hon. Gentleman had pointed out some positive danger to the Empire in taking the measure as it stands. In that it seems to me the Sec-rotary of State for the Colonies has conspicuously failed to-night. The right hon. Gentleman has told us that it is for external reasons—reasons affecting other nations—that it is necessary to make this change. I confess it seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman has entirely failed to establish any necessity, on what may be called the foreign or external point of view, for making this particular change in the Bill. We have already the weapon of the reservation of the Bill and of non-assent to it, we have also the weapon of the Colonial Laws Validily Act, and I cannot conceive any case being shown where an appeal to the Privy Council would be likely to save us from a foreign danger to which otherwise we would be exposed. The Secretary of State in the latter portion of the Blue-book appeals to the opinion of the colonies, and in his speech to-night he laboured rather hard to try and convince the House that opinion in the colonies was already in a very large minority with him, and was coming round
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to his side, if it had not actually become a majority. He quotes three colonies out of seven as agreeing with his view, and he quoted to-night the opinion of Judges and newspapers against the opinion of the delegates who have the highest responsibility in this matter. Surely they represent the feelings of the people of Australia on this question more accurately than even the Australian Parliament or the Prime Ministers, and he has quoted against their opinion that of judges and i newspapers.
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Does the right hon. Baronet state that these delegates were elected?
SIR CHARLES DILKE: They were elected to the Convention to represent their colonies in this country.
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: They were not elected as delegates, but were, of course, appointed by the responsible Governments, and I am not aware that they claim to have any special mandate on this particular question.
SIR CHARLES DILKE: What I said was that these delegates represent the federal feeling of Australia. They are known as the federal leaders, and two of them led the Federal Convention, and were elected to that convention by a larger number of votes than is usually recorded in Parliamentary elections in Australia. Therefore I say they are perfectly representative of Australian feeling, not of colony by colony, but of the majority of the people of Australia. The right hon. Gentleman quotes the opinion of three colonies—Queensland, Western Australia and New Zealand. The colony of Queens-' land was late in coming into the Commonwealth, as he has shown. The four colonies which hung to the Federal movement all along were New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, and Tasmania. Queensland was not represented in the Convention when the 74th clause was arranged; and it must be remembered that several of those who have spoken in her name were opponents of the Federal Union, and were only driven into it ultimately by the feeling of the electorate of the State. As regards Western Australia, Sir John Forrest, the Premier, to the last moment stood out from the Federal movement, and he has now been

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driven into it by the electorate of his State against his own personal opinion. Then my right hon. friend recites Now Zealand as the third colony on his side. I can say that New Zealand was not a party to this Bill, and never will be a party to a close federation. Although it had been very willing to come in with Australia as a potential member of the Federal Council, New Zealand cannot, on account of the divergence of her interests and the enormous distance from Australia—it is as far from Australia to New Zealand as from this House to Africa— come into closer federation. That was the three colonies out of seven, while on the other side, in favour of keeping the Bill as it is, you have the opinion of the really Federal colonies which have been in the movement from the first—New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, and Tasmania. I am very sorry that the Secretary of State should have published in Blue-book, and should have quoted here tonight, the opinion of certain colonial judges in regard to what is the opinion of Australia as a whole. And more than that, that he should have quoted the personal opinion of colonial governors of single colonies as regards the opinion of Australia as a whole. The Blue-book is full of quotations like that, and the right hon. Gentleman quoted the Governor of Queensland.
MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, no! I certainly refrained from quoting the opinion of any English Governor.
SIR CHARLES DILKE: At all events I say that it is a great pity that the right hon. Gentleman should have printed in the Blue-book the personal opinion of Lord Lamington, because it is calculated to set up the backs of the people throughout the Australian colonies. There is nothing on which these colonies are more touchy than interference of this kind, and when Lord Lamington tells us, not what is the judgment and opinion of his constitutional advisers, but what is his personal opinion, and that of Australia generally, he is going outside his functions in a way which will be bitterly resented in Australia. We have the same thing in regard to the Governor of New Zealand, when he gives his personal opinion as the opinion of Australia, although in much less strong language
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than that of Lord Lamington. As these debates go on I think we shall find more and more that this is not a legal or a technical question. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for South Longford, who represented Canada in the celebrated negotiations as to the Privy Council in 1873, knows how the proposals on that occasion failed and utterly broke down. Lord Selbonie took one view, and Lord Cairns took another, and the whole of Lord Selborno's proposals fell to the ground. This matter will not be settled as a technical and legal question, but as a moral and political question. The hon. Member who spoke last said that a Canadian statesman had told him that the Privy Council appeal was the last link left between the Empire and the Colonies. But it seems to me that the Empire rests on stronger links than any Privy Council appeal. These links are the flag, respect for the institutions of the Empire as a whole, the provisions made in regard to defence, which rest mainly on a broader field, representations by the Governor General, and common service in arms, to which the hon. Gentleman himself alluded. These will always form much stronger links than any appeal to Imperial Courts. In 1885 when the Federal Council for Australia Bill was first brought before the House of Lords, in which it was introduced by the Government of which the right hon. the Secretary of State for the Colonies was a member, and again, afterwards, when it was introduced here by the incoming Conservative Government which had to pass it through this House, an argument was used by the late Lord Derby in the other House, and by the present Lord Derby in this House, of a most curious kind, which bears very closely on the present Bill. They said that that Federal Council Bill had come before Parliament with peculiar sanctity. To use the words of the late Lord Derby, "it came with this special recommendation that it was a scheme which the Australian community had devised for itself." As compared with the South African Bill of 1877, and the Canada Act of 1867, the Federal Council Bill was not prepared here, but by the Australian Parliaments. But the Bill before us is presented with an even higher sanction than the Federal Council Bill of 1885. It has passed, as no other Constitution in the British Empire has passed, through the ordeal of a reference to the whole

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people of the country to whom it concerns. If there is any vital necessity in the interests of the British Empire, or in the interests of the sanctity of treaties, why this Parliament should pull the Bill to pieces, then no doubt this Parliament is bound to exercise its power; but it appears to me that the Colonial Secretary has failed to show the House that there is any such overwhelming necessity for dealing in that manner with it.
MR. VICAKY GIBBS: The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition says that the question in regard to the retention of the Privy Council appeal is a small technical point; but I do not think that any one on this side of the House will hesitate for a moment to agree with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean, that it is a political issue. It has been said that the delegates represent Australian feeling in regard to Clause 74. I hold that the delegates represent a very strong and proper feeling in Australia in favour of Federation, but nothing more. Interesting as it is, and important as it is that this Bill should have been submitted by referendum to the people of Australia, the real question asked in the reference was whether the people desired to federate or not. Each individual did not vote on every detail in the Bill. The right hon. the Loader of the Opposition said that the speeches should be short and few, but he made a speech which was certainly calculated as much as anything could, to stimulate debate. I venture to say that when he spoke of the action which the Government contemplate, and which I most heartily and cordially approve of, as being an open rebuff to the people of Australia, he was saying what is actually mischievous, and which ought not to have come from a man in his position. It is a painful commentary on part' politics that such a remark should have been made by the Leader of the Opposition. I know Australia and the Australians, and I believe they are not so silly as to be influenced by such a remark. They will have regard to the tone of the Colonial Secretary's speech, and to the proposal he has made for a new Court, and they will see the generous recognition of the part which the colonies themselves ought to play in that new Appellate Court. I cannot agree alto-
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gether with all that my hon. friend the Member for York has said in disapproving of that tribunal. I cannot think the colonies will be influenced by a name. They will look at the facts, and that in that tribunal they themselves are to have a place. The Leader of the Opposition complained that the Colonial Secretary had referred to the newspapers, and said, "We all know how newspapers have been manipulated." Well, I do not know how newspapers are manipulated; but I do know the Australian papers well. I lived for two years in Melbourne, and you could no more manipulate the whole Victorian press to express a particular opinion than you could the whole London press. It would be absolutely impossible. Clever manipulator as the right hon. Gentleman may be, he could not undertake to make The Times, the Standard, and the Daily News all write in the same tone on some great public question unless he had public opinion behind him. No more could he manipulate the Age and the Argus, the two leading newspapers of Melbourne. Again I say it would be absolutely impossible. If the Australian newspapers are unanimous on the point it is a most remarkable thing, and a striking demonstration that the great weight of public opinion in Australia must be on the side of the Government. It was said by the Colonial Secretary that the banks and insurance companies were in favour of the Government proposal, but the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition said, "How do we know that the banks and insurance companies were not against federation?" We do not know whether the banks or insurance companies were in favour of or against federation, because that is a question that does not concern them; but this we do know—that they, like all the commercial opinion of Australia, are in favour of the appeal to the Privy Council, because it is in the interest of men who trade in Australia. That is not gossip, but I know it as a fact by being in constant weekly communication with Australia, and it is important for the House that they should realise that fact. I have been asked whether if the 74th Clause was amended it would involve a fresh referendum. I do not myself believe that for a moment. I can quite understand that the delegates were most anxious lest they should do anything which would commit themselves

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to a fresh referendum. They knew the anxiety and the labour they had gone through to get this length. It is important that we should leave nothing in the Bill which is liable to involve us unnecessarily in friction between us and the colonies, or friction between us and foreign Powers, and both of these risks are involved if the appeal to the Privy Council is not restored. I have had communications with men in important positions in Australia who are set on having the appeal retained. This measure has been approached in a conciliatory spirit, and every care has been taken to avoid saying anything that could be regarded as any sort of rebuff. The colonies are not so silly as to claim plenary inspiration for the Bill. They say it is a good Bill, an important measure, but they do not say it is a perfect Bill in every word. When they know that it is approached by Her Majesty's Government with absolute sincerity, and with every desire to give in to their wishes in everything that affects the colonies themselves, I say it is a monstrous thing that that should be spoken of by the Leader of the Opposition as an open rebuff, and that an attempt should be made to inflame their minds against those who desire their benefit above all things in this world. I am sure that when the right hon. Gentleman considers the matter he himself will regret to have used such words as he did.
MR. HALDANE: I do not propose to measure speculation against speculation with the hon. Member as to how the course the Government propose to take in regard to the Commonwealth Bill will be received in Australia. We shall know that in a week's time, before the Second Reading comes on for debate; and I do not think that at this period we can go into matters which, after all, we shall be much better able to discuss a few days hence. The right hon. Gentleman in the most interesting and eloquent speech in which he introduced the Bill said, and said truly, that he might be envied the position in which he found himself in bringing it in. This is the third time in which a measure of this kind has been brought before Parliament. The first was the great Bill of 1867, which Lord Carnarvon brought forward for establishing the Confederation of Canada.
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The second was the South Africa Bill of 1877, and the third is the present Bill. Now, there was this great difference between the first and the third of these Bills and the second—a great line which separated them altogether. What happened to the second Bill for the Federation of South Africa? It fell still-born, and why? Because it was the construction of Downing Street, and not, like the present measure, the expression of the fully realised wishes of the people for whoso benefit it was introduced. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the delegates from Canada coming over here in 1867 to confer with the Government. He might have added that before they came resolutions had been passed throughout the length and breadth of Canada, known as the Quebec resolutions, and that these formed the basis of the Bill which founded the Dominion. Here, again, we have a great scheme which is the scheme of Australia as a whole. It is a scheme brought forward by the delegates sent over to the Imperial Parliament, and I think that the Imperial Parliament ought constitutionally to treat it as a trustee of its own powers rather than exercise these powers freely. The right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary spoke of this Bill as resembling in its main features the Constitution of the United States rather than the Constitution of Canada. I do not think the main features of the Australian Commonwealth will differ so materially, after all, from the Canadian Constitution of 1867. It is true that, in Canada, the general powers of legislation are reserved to the Dominion Parliament, while only specified powers are given to the Provincial Parliaments. But the latter have among those specified powers the widest capacity for dealing unrestrictedly with property and civil rights. Therefore, rather technically than in substance is there a difference between the Provincial Legislatures of Canada and those of Australia. But the difference between the Constitution which this Bill proposes to sot up and the constitution of the United States is enormous and fundamental. This Bill is permeated through and through with the spirit of the greatest institution which exists in the Empire, and which pertains to every Constitution established within the Empire—I mean the institution of responsible Government, a Government under which the Executive is directly responsible to—nay,

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is almost the creature of—the Legislature. That is not so in America, but it is so with all the Constitutions we have granted to our self-governing colonies. On this occasion we establish a Constitution modelled on our own model, pregnant with the same spirit, and permeated with the principle of responsible Government. Therefore, what you have here is nothing akin to the Constitution of the United States except in its most superficial features. It is really a reproduction in Australia of the British Constitution upon a large and noble scale. Our Constitution at home is essentially unwritten. So it will be in Australia. The mere framework which the Bill proposes to set up will be filled in, as here, with traditions and doctrines which we have inherited, with tendencies which are not expressed in words, and with bonds which, though invisible to the legal eye, are yet binding and give the people security. And in that mass of unwritten tradition which will be interwoven within the framework of the Commonwealth Constitution will be found the reproduction of what we have at home. There is a body of common traditions, common doctrines, common tendencies, just as there is a body of common law which is the general heritage of our Empire. Therefore I, for one, approach this question of appeal —which is the substantial question at issue—from a somewhat different point of view than that taken by some of my hon. friends. I feel that it is almost inherent in a Constitution such as ours, shared by different parts of the Queen's dominions, preserving the common elements to which I have referred, that there should be some means of a common interpretation. I feel that there is implied in our Constitution, when it reaches a certain stage of development, that there should be a common tribunal which would be a real link, because it would be the property, not of one part of the Queen's dominions, nor of the people in them, but of the people throughout the Empire, wherever there are these traditions, and tendencies, and bodies of common law, and wherever the people require some medium for bringing to a common focus the general opinions and views of the Empire as a whole. I do not think that such a Court, as properly understood, is a Court which ought in the least to conflict with local jurisdiction. I, for one, take the line
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that the expression of which in these debates we have heard so much, the "Queen's prerogative," is a mere technical phrase, and should be put aside; and I was glad that the right hon. Gentleman the Colonial Secretary did put it aside. Our self-governing dependencies have the right to set up their own Courts of Judicature if they please, and to say that these Courts are final. I do not want to see the decisions of their local Courts interfered with. I should be glad to sec the Courts of Australia finally dispose of the great mass of ordinary litigation; but I think there should, for the special and limited class of questions to which I have adverted, be a Court of yet higher consideration. I come now, in view of that, to the specific proposition, by way of amendment, to which the right hon. Gentleman has drawn our attention, and it is with regret that I differ from the right hon. Gentleman in some material particulars. I cannot help thinking that if the right hon. Gentleman had obtained his way, if he had not been hampered by the tradition of the sacredness of the judicial position of the House of Lords, which we now know for the first time is to be made a question, it must have occurred to him two years ago that the real way of averting a situation of conflict was to have made the proposal of a great Imperial Court to take the place of the House of Lords and the Privy Council, and to be shared in by the colonists just as it would be by ourselves. I am convinced that you cannot keep the House of Lords jurisdiction as it is at present, and at the same time obtain for the Privy Council the status in the eyes of the Empire which it should be able to occupy if we were contemplating the establishment of a single tribunal. We are in this country 40,000,000 of people, and enormously rich, and the result is that we have appellate business of a very important character which goes to the House of Lords. If there are two tribunals sitting for the dispatch of the same business, the one is starved in order to keep up the other, and the judicial strength inevitably gravitates towards the House of Lords, and until you make the colonials feel that the tribunal to which they come is the same as that to which you yourselves appeal, you will never got their confidence. The constitutional lawyer and the historian have watched with interest the

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way in which first Parliament and then the House of Lords have taken away the prerogative of the Crown as the final resort of the suitor, and appropriated it to themselves; the result of that has been that, though the Privy Council is considered good enough for the colonies, it is not allowed in Great Britain and Ireland to be good enough for us. And it was curious to notice in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman that while he was ready to reform the Privy Council by the addition of four Law Lords representing the different colonies, still, he spoke of the amalgamation of the jurisdictions of the Privy Council and House of Lords as if it was a matter to be put off for some time, and he gave as the reason that the colonies were to be consulted. I can see a reason for the colonies being consulted before four Law Lords are put on the Privy Council to represent them, but I cannot see how the colonies have to be so elaborately consulted in this, which can do nothing but strengthen, and it appears to me that there is going to be considerable delay in the fusion of the two tribunals, and that this reform may not take place until perhaps the Parliament after next. I think that this is a great misfortune, and I trust that there is no settled determination in the mind of the Government on those points, because I feel sure that if you are going to get over the difficulty with Australia it would best be done by offering Australia a substitute, which would take the form not merely of a reform of the Privy Council, but of a High Court of Appeal in which they would have membership. If this offer had been made two years ago we should not have heard very much of the controversy which prevails to-day. Australia has not been treated so well as it ought to have been, and the result has been the feeling engendered against the Privy Council, due to neglect on the part of the Imperial Government. Surely the better course to follow is not to amend Clause 74, but to say that the clause will be taken and a new Court proposed. It may seem to be a matter of form, but matters of form are very important when you are dealing with a subject like this. I believe that Australia was never more in a mood to join hands with us. I believe anything of this kind properly offered would be willingly accepted. The offer should be made, but
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not pressed. The mother of Parliaments does not coerce her children.
AN IRISH MEMBER: We do not accept that statement.
MR. HALDANE: I say this with great sympathy for the right hon. Gentleman, because he has been at pains to put himself on the best terms with the colonies, and has a difficult matter to negotiate here. I appreciate the right hon. Gentleman's desire to keep the link of Empire. On the other hand, if the alternative course had been taken to the one which has been pursued, we should have been outside the present trouble. I hope it is not too late now to make propositions of this kind in such a form, without amendments to the Bill, which might turn out to be obnoxious to the people of Australia, as to get over this difficulty. We shall watch with anxiety what takes place between now and next Monday. If the people of Australia assent to the propositions of the Government as made, the course is easy; but if they do not assent, then to my mind it is of the greatest importance to make the people of Australia understand that we are not trying to press upon them what they do not desire, but to save for Imperial purposes only a limited right of appeal. There is quite enough appeal left by the clause as it stands to the Privy Council to preserve the existence of the Court, and I would father see this matter initiated in strict accordance with the wishes of the people of Australia, wishes arrived at after prolonged conferences which must be taken to be authoritative, than in a shape in which they do not desire it.
MR. STANLEY LEIGHTOINsaid the hon. Member who had just sat down appeared to be advocating the policy of waiting to see how the cat jumped. He said, "Wait until Monday and then you will see," but that was not quite the way in which to approach this question. The view of the right hon. Gentleman below the gangway who represented the Forest of Dean was also a very narrow one, consisting as it did of the argument that not a single word of the Bill ought to be altered. If

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no word of the Bill was to be altered, why waste words discussing it? It seemed to him that it would be a most uncomplimentary thing to the Australian people if the Bill was passed without discussion, and discussion meant possible amendment. From the statesmanlike speech of the Colonial Secretary, it must have been patent to the House that there was no idea of forcing anything on colonies. It was an old axiom that it was bad policy to force the best form of law on an unwilling people, and it was gratifying to know that as at present constituted the Privy Council was not to be forced down the throats of the Australian people. The principle of appeal was not objected to, but what was objected to was the appeal to this particular Court in its present form. The hon. Member for York had made some observations with regard to the judicial proceedings of the Privy Council; but, with the exception of some gentlemen of the long robe, very few people knew what the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council was, of whom it was composed, what it did, and where it held its court. He [Mr. Stanley Leighton] had determined ten years ago to make a search and make quite sure that it not only had a name but a local habitation, and he inquired of all his friends "Where is the Privy Council?" and no one knew. He asked judges and the like and was referred to "Whitaker" and a little book entitled, " Things Not Generally Known," from neither of which could he extract the desired information. He then conceived the idea of starting at the top of Parliament Street and knocking at every door and inquiring if the Privy Council was at home, and in the course of his peregrinations he came to a door at which a policeman was standing, who, in answer to his inquiries, directed him up a small back staircase, and upon entering a small room on the second floor he found himself in the presence of the august assembly. There was no accommodation for strangers. It was not surprising that in such a position of obscurity this august Council was hardly appreciated, or even known; but who was to blame? First of all, the lawyers. When they built their palace of justice, why did not they find a home for the great Court of the Empire, a Court which throws all others into insignificance, a Court with the farthest-reaching jurisdiction in the whole world, farther-reach-
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ing than that of the Roman Curia, and deciding the rights of millions of people and questions on the most varied law? Why was such a Court relegated to an upper chamber difficult of access? In the reign of William IV. an Act was passed for the reform of this Court, and it was provided that certain colonial as well as Indian judges should sit upon the Bench. But no colonial judge was appointed till five years ago. Ten years ago he himself pressed the necessity for further reform, with all the power a private Member possessed, upon the Government of Lord Salisbury, and he was told the matter should receive consideration; but that Government went out of power, and no consideration was given to the matter. Five years later he pressed the same consideration on the Government of Lord Rosebery, and no doubt, so far as the Colonial Office was concerned, would have received the same attention as before; but fortunately the matter was taken up by Lord Rosebery personally, who brought in a Bill limited in extent, but adding three judges from the colonies to the Judicial Committee. He agreed with the hon. Member for Haddington that if this matter had been dealt with five, or even two years previously, Clause 74 would not have appeared in this Bill. The people of Australia were to be congratulated upon having brought this matter to the attention of the Government. The Government would have allowed the matter to drag on till the Day of Judgment had not pressure been put upon them, but now there was some hope that a new, permanent, and effective colonial representation would be placed upon the Privy Council, and that we should really have a Court of Appeal for the whole Empire. For this we thank the Australian people.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Secretary Chamberlain, Mr. Balfour, and Mr. Attorney General.

COMMONWEALTH OF AUSTRALIA CONSTITUTION BILL.
"To constitute the Commonwealth of Australia," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 199.]

UGANDA RAILWAY BILL.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith) in the Chair.]
Clause 1:—
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I object to Clause 1, and I have to propose an Amendment. The Amendment is extremely simple, but it has a very important and novel object. I think I can show to the Members who remain in the House that it is an important and desirable Amendment to make. This Bill is practically a re-enactment of the Uganda Railway Bill of 1896, which Bill prescribed the form in which the accounts should be laid before the House of Commons, and that was the form required by the Treasury. They are laid before the House of Commons in the form required by the Treasury, and I venture to say that a more unsatisfactory form could scarcely be imagined. The whole expenditure of this Bill, amounting to £5,000,000 up to this time, is lumped together under eight heads, to which a ninth has been added. I am really sorry that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer is not in his place. I think he ought to be in his place. He knows that I am about to attack the Treasury, and him as the head of the Treasury, and I feel it difficult to carry on the discussion without his presence. I cannot carry on the discussion without someone present representing the Treasury—either the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Secretary. In their absence I would say that this Bill should be withdrawn for the present.
THE CHAIRMAN: The right hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, who is in charge of the Bill, is present.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Well, he knows nothing about the Treasury accounts. [At this point the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER entered the House.] My whole argument is to be addressed to the state of the accounts, on which I put a question to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to-day. I say that the statement
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of the accounts in the way required by the Treasury is not satisfactory to this House. My argument is that the Comptroller and Auditor-General should prescribe the form in which the accounts should be presented, and not the Treasury. Under the Uganda Bill as it at present stands the method will be continued of having the accounts rendered in the form prescribed by the Treasury. I say that is a very bad form. Three reports have been made to the Comptroller and Auditor-General in the form required by the Treasury. It is true that the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that if I referred to some other Papers, and not the accounts presented to this House, I should find satisfactory details. I have nothing to do with these Papers. My concern is with the accounts presented to this House, and with the form followed by the Comptroller and Auditor-General with respect to accounts submitted to the Public Accounts Committee. I say that the three reports presented are totally insufficient. In each case they contain mere large bald items consisting of hundreds of thousands of pounds. I am speaking of the expenditure. I have no complaint to make as to the first two items in the accounts, the first showing the amount issued from the Consolidated Fund, and the other showing the amount borrowed. It is the third item which is so entirely insufficient. You have in the first account £367,000 under eight heads, and no further details at all. The second and third accounts are exactly the same, with the exception that the account rendered this year, giving the figures up to 1889, contains the following note by the Comptroller and Auditor-General—
"Certain questions in connection with those account are it present the subject of inquiry."
Therefore, it is clear that tile account as presented, is wholly unsatisfactory. My complaint is as to the form of the account itself. It is altogether inadequate. I will give one illustration. There is the enormous sum of £290,000 under the head of unallocated expenditure, which I say is not an account but the negation of an account. Hero is another, and this is really the chief instance of the inadequacy of the account. The item for administration up to 1889 is £163,448, i which has transpired almost accidentally. It has never come before the Public

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Accounts Committee, nor is it in the accounts themselves laid before Parliament. It transpires only through the accidental generosity of the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs. In a memorandum laid by him before the House there is this large item of £163,448, in addition to which there is of course a poriton of the unallocated expenditure. This item contains an entirely unsuspected matter—the item of one per cent. to the Crown agents. I am. not going into that. It is money expended for the railway in buying stores and plant. I think it is very unsatisfactory, and it is a matter that will have to be pursued in another direction. I only instance it. There is another item of £2,000 a year for the rent of the engineer's office. He gets £500 a year for salary, and four times as much for the rent of his office.
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. BRODRICK,): It is for office clerks and the rent of office.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Well, I accept that explanation. I should not have fallen into the error if the accounts had been given in fuller detail. I do not know what other items of a questionable character there way be in the accounts. Undoubtedly the item of one per cent. is of a most questionable character. In the accounts presented to Parliament no disclosure is made of that item. I should be quite content to rest my complaint on that alone, and to say that the accounts are unsatisfactory. In many Statutes the accounts are ordained to be presented to Parliament in the way required by the Treasury. I broadly say that it is an undesirable thing. There are a great many instances which I could go into in particularity where the Treasury have required accounts to be rendered in a form calculated not to afford information, but to withhold it from this House. In no case was that so strongly illustrated as in the case of the review ground of Salisbury Plain. The form required by the Treasury was such that under the heads of ranges and manœuvring ground they included largo purchases of land at Salisbury Plain, and no particulars were given at all, and it was necessary to move for the particular accounts before we could get any sort of details of the purchases
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made under those heads. I come now to my main argument. I have given illustrations of the imperfections of the accounts. The Treasury is not the proper authority to prescribe the form of the accounts. The proper person is the Comptroller and Auditor - General. The Treasury may think it easy to put off the House with general items which give very little information, but if you put it into the hands of the Comptroller and Auditor-General, who is an officer of the House, he will require that the accounts should be rendered in such a way as to afford proper facilities to himself and the House for looking into the various items. He has to act in the interest of the House, and it is not his business to carry out preconceived ideas, or preconceived official policy. It is his business to show the whole of the accounts. I submit a new suggestion, and I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will be disposed to adopt it. I may be told that it cannot be entertained now. I should be pretty well content if I were told that consideration would be given to it. The broad question I raise is whether the Treasury or the Comptroller and Auditor-General should prescribe the form of the accounts, and it is to elicit an expression on that point that I move the Amendment which stands in my name on the Paper.
Amendment proposed —
"In page 1, line 7, at find, to add ' and as if in Section 2, Sub-section 3 there of, Comptroller and Auditor - General were substituted for Treasury."—(Mr. Gibson Bowles.)
Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,): The hon. Member is so invariably prepared to find fault that I confess I am not disposed to attach the importance to his criticism on this occasion which it might otherwise deserve. The Treasury has not the smallest interest in concealing anything from the House. In such a matter as this it would be in the direct interest of the Treasury that everything should be presented to the House of Commons in order that criticism by hon. Members, and by the hon. Member himself, might deal with anything wrong in the matter of expenditure

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by the Department. In this particular case I referred the hon. Member to another account which I hold in my hand, and in which he could, if he thought fit, find the details he asks for. It is in No. 4 schedule of the expenditure for 1899, page 7. If the hon. Gentleman will refer to that he will find the details of the expenditure on construction, which could not by any possibility be given in the other account. I could show similarly, if it was worth while, that the details in regard to other items are to be found on other pages. I do not want to quarrel with the hon. Gentleman at all. I do not at all resent his wish for further information. If the Comptroller and Auditor - General should report to the Committee of this House, or to the Committee on Public Accounts, that he has not sufficient information to enable him to conduct a proper audit of all the items, I should be most happy to give further details.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I think under the circumstances I am quite able to withdraw the Amendment I have made.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, "That Clause I stand part of the Bill."
MR. PERKS: My objection to this Bill is that it is absurd to go on spending these huge sums of money without providing for more effective control of the expenditure than is at present being provided. I wish to allude to one or two of the excuses—be-cause they can be called nothing more— that are contained in this official apology which was published a few days ago. I want again to point out how serious is the position concerning this railway, because we are not merely to construct this railway, but also other large projected public works— railways and harbours in various parts of the world. It is of the utmost importance that this large expenditure should be controlled by capable men. I do not say one word to imply any charge against the personal character of those who have been conducting this matter, but I say that they have shown an absolute want of capacity in dealing with the Uganda Railway. I would remind the Committee again that when this railway
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was originally projected, we were assured in the most positive way that it would not cost more than £3,000,000. The railway was to be a little over 600 miles in length. The whole of this £3,000,000 has gone, the railway has been diminished in length 100 miles, and we are now asked for £2,000,000 more to complete this shortened railway. Further, we are not even now told that this money will be sufficient; indeed we are distinctly warned by Sir Guilford Molesworth in his report that it is impossible, even under the latest survey, to say that the money now being asked will finish the line. You are making this railway on a gauge which neither fits the Egyptian line, the German line, nor the British railways coming from the south. When this railway was projected with a three-foot gauge we were told that the difference between a three-foot and a three-foot three-inch gauge was comparatively slight, and would make very little difference in the cost of the road. When I put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the other day as to the difference in cost between what is now being constructed and a three-foot six-inch gauge in order to make the rolling stock and the various equipments interchangeable with the Egyptian railways, I was most absurdly told—the right hon. Gentleman will excuse me saying it—that to convert this road, which has at present only 300 miles constructed, from a three-foot throe-inch to a throe foot six-inch gauge would cost £500,000. We had no details given us of that. I shall perhaps be told that this large cost is due to the conversion of locomotives and rolling stock, but any practical man must perfectly well know that the cost of changing the axles or otherwise converting 500 or 600 trucks and 90 locomotives, and to alter the gauge from three-feet three inches to three-feet six inches, upon the residue of the line, would not amount to the extraordinary sum of £500,000. We were told in one of the early rosy reports, which I think has been thrown over recently—it was a fancy picture drawn up by one of the early engineers, I forget who at the moment—that there would be a very largo quantity of land leased and sold for the purposes of settlers who were starting little plantations and farms. Even in this last report we are told that the Government is proceeding to consider the letting of lands. Now I wish to ask who is

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going to make the title? In whom is this railway invested from the coast up to Lake Nyanza? We are not told of any ordinance—certainly no ordinance passed by the local Government. Have you simply seized the land from the savages or natives through whose country you have gone, and spent £3,000,000 in the belief that the purchasers of sites would rely on your power to secure them a title in these uninhabited portions of South Africa? I think before the country is asked to spend large additional sums of money we ought to have some accurate information with reference to the conditions under which this great project is vested, and who are the responsible people controlling it. This work is one of a large number of works that are being constructed. For example, a railway is being constructed in the direction of Coomassie, another in Sierra Leone, and another in the Malay States, and under recent Acts of Parliament large sums have been voted for these purposes. I do not think it is at all satisfactory that these projects should be controlled and managed by a miscellaneous committee got together in some strange way, some paid by salary, others by commission, and others receiving nothing at all. If we are going to construct railways all over the world, and execute other important works, they should be constructed under the authority of a British railway board, on which we would have expert people who should be properly remunerated for the services they render. The gentlemen forming the Uganda Railway Committee have not been very fair to the House of Commons in the course they have taken. If they had been the directors of a limited company they would have been seriously blamed for the course they have taken in not bringing to the knowledge of their proprietors, as they ought to have done, the facts which they say they discovered at an early stage of the management. One of the excuses is in the second paragraph of the memorandum, whore it is stated that it was evident to them, at an early stage, that some of the items in the 1893 estimates were insufficient. They say that it was only in September last year that they had any reliable estimates at all. I think that having come to the conclusion that the estimates were totally insufficient, and that both the country and they had been misled, it was the duty of Her Majesty's Govern
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ment in 1896 to have fairly and frankly told the House of the discoveries which had been made by the Committee. I propose now to refer to some of the items in the account on page 3, and to the various official excuses given for this strange state of affairs. Upon bridges you are spending the enormous sum of £660,000. There is a difference of £400,000 between the expenditure now proposed and the estimate of bridges. How does that come to pass? We were told in August, 1895, that the line would be completely bridged as in the original scheme. Now that statement could not have been true. It was a statement made when the House was asked to vote the preliminary sum of £20,000 for the surveys and the starting of the works. We were told then that the sum of £3,000,000 would provide for completing the whole works, including the bridges of this railway. Now we are told that that is not so, and that there is a difference of no less than £400,000 for bridges. I may be told that this is due to the rise in the prices of iron and steel. I do not know whether I shall have that singular excuse given, so my answer to the right hon. Gentleman is that if these men had been prudent men, and had had the ordinary business knowledge of men engaged in the execution of great works abroad, they would have covered themselves for the whole of the iron and steel at the commencement of the contract. They knew how many miles of railway they had to make, how many tons of rails, and howmany tons of steel for bridges would be required. Why did they not buy the material in advance? That seems a novel idea to the hon. Gentleman opposite, but I can assure him it is the prudent course taken by men who understand this business.
MR. BRODRICK: Could that be done in regard to work not fully surveyed?
MR. PERKS: The line was surveyed. We were told the exact mileage of the railway, and the weight of the rails. If you know that you have to construct 600 miles of railway, and that the weight of a rail is 701b. or 80lb., you do not require a survey to know how many tons of rails you have to buy.
MR. BRODRICK: You were speaking of bridges.
MR. PERKS: My answer to that is that the contract provided originally for £200,000 for bridges, and if the hon. Gentleman will tell us that the difficulty was caused by the rise in prices, we shall then see what is the nature of the excuse given for the non-purchase of material. It is quite clear that business and competent men would have seen that they required so many rails, bridges, and sleepers, so much cement, so much timber, so many stores; and for all this the contractors ought to have covered themselves in the very early stages of the contract. If the gentlemen in charge of the work do not know how to do that, it is high time that we got men who did understand it. We are told here in another explanatory note that the difference in the permanent way is £500,000. How is that explained? There is no explanation given in this memorandum. On the subject of ballast we were told in 1895 that the railway was to be fully ballasted, then we were told later on that it did not require any ballast at all. We are told now that instead of £24,000 put down for ballast they require the enormous sum of £340,000. Why could they not have discovered that before? They might easily have discovered whether the sleepers would stand without ballast at an earlier stage. Why did they take three years to discover that they would require £340,000 to complete the ballast of the railway? There are many tropical railways and railways in Southern countries using precisely this sort of sleeper without ballast, and I am told by competent people that it is extremely doubtful whether this money will be required for ballast, although it is possible it may be required for other purposes connected with the railway. Wearetold there are ninety-two locomotives. What are they wanted for? It certainly cannot be for purposes of construction. You do not want ninety-two locomotives to construct 600 miles of railway. The Government defence is that they will be required for the traffic, but yet we are to have only one train per day each way. Have the Government ever calculated how many locomotives they will require to work the traffic of one train each day? Will they want anything like ninety-two locomotives? Further, how does this large number of locomotives fit in with the traffic which it is estimated will be earned by the railway? The
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figures do not fit in at all. If you have ninety-two locomotives at work you will be capable of earning a very much larger amount than anything which has been estimated, or is likely to be earned. On page 4 of the memorandum we have statements to this effect: "The expectations of the earlier estimates have not been realised;" "in the absence of regular sections the quantities could only be guessed at," and " owing to the absence of records the amount of waterway could only be surmised." I venture to say that if this Uganda Committee cannot do more than indulge in expectations and surmises and guesses, not only is it high time that we had a very much more competent Committee to deal with this subject than the one we have, but it is very doubtful indeed whether we ought to speculate with these large sums of public money until some great change has boon effected. I have not one word to say against the principle of constructing this railway. In the last Parliament I supported the Uganda Railway, and I supported the last Government in its defence of it. I believe it is a wise project, but we do expect these undertakings to be managed by business men on business lines. A great undertaking of this description should not have been plunged into a hopeless state of muddle and confusion, simply because these men do not understand their business, or else they do not give proper attention to the subject, and do not keep any proper and effective control over the different officials who have been sent out to manage this great undertaking.
MR. BRODRICKdenied that there had been nothing but muddle and confusion in connection with this matter. All the hon. Member could point to was the fact that in the preliminary survey made in 1893 there had been a considerable underestimate of cost. But that estimate by Major Macdonald was for an incomplete line, and turned out to be about one-half of the cost of a fully equipped line under wholly different circumstances. That might be a matter for criticism, but it was not the fault of the Foreign Office. He was not responsible for the original estimate—in fact, he had had a very short responsibility with regard to it—but he desired to repudiate altogether the idea that this com-

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mittee was an incompetent body. On the contrary, it contained quite as many experts as would be found in any railway board in the kingdom—persons who knew the country and had great technical knowledge of railway construction. The position in which he stood was that he. had been unlucky enough to lay before the House a very full memorandum with regard to this expenditure—a Paper which had earned for him a certain amount of gratitude from the hon. Member for King's Lynn, but which had furnished a rod to his back for every Member who desired to make the worst of the expenditure. Complaint had been made with regard to the gauge. It was perfectly true that the gauge was different from that of the Egyptian and Capo railways, but this question was fully considered when the scheme was first discussed. He did not know whether in the very remote future there might be some connection established by rail, or whether the greater bulk of traffic would be by water. If the greater bulk was by water, goods brought to or from the Uganda Railway had to cross the lake by steamer. It was a matter of perfect indifference whether the gauge was the same as on the other railways or not. Complaint was made also of the large cost involved in making the change, but it had to be remembered that the £500,000 would be subject to some deduction for the value of materials; but as it was not known when the change would be made, he did not like to make any allowance of that character. It was obvious that to make a change in the estimate before any material was purchased was probably a very small thing compared to making a change after the whole undertaking was completed. In the one case the whole of the huge stock had to be got rid of, while in the other it had not to be paid for at all; consequently the difference between the two was very great. With regard to the land, proper instruments were being prepared. A certain amount of land had been obtained from those who previously possessed it, but most of it had been obtained by Act. Upon this point, however, he would have to make a full statement. Undoubtedly considerable pecuniary advantage would be obtained from the land, and the slip of land by the side of the railway would, when sold, be put to the credit of the capital account.
MR. PERKS: Has any been sold yet?
MR. BRODRICKreplied that some applications had been made, and although the hon. Gentleman looked so incredulous, it was expected there would be a very considerable desire, especially on the part of traders, to obtain the land. The next point was in connection with the bridge work, and with regard to this the estimate had undoubtedly gone up very largely. But why had it gone up? In the first place, the preliminary estimate, which had been referred to, was quoted not as the anticipated cost of this work, but simply in order to give the House a comparison with the sketch estimate made by Major Macdonald before the railway was commenced. That was not the estimate upon which the House voted £3,000,000. The amount for bridge work was considerably larger than in the estimate of £2,500,000.
MR. PERKS: It is quite true it was not made on the original Macdonald estimate of 1892, but I would point out that in the estimate of 1895, which was laid before the House when these figures of £3,000,000 were submitted and approved, the statement there is that the line would be completely bridged as in the original scheme.
MR. BRODRICKunderstood that in the original scheme the bridge work was not in all cases of a permanent character; the smaller bridges especially had been made more substantial. That was one point. Another point was with regard to the insufficient survey of the land. He was not an expert, but he should suppose that in surveying land such as this it was certain that difficulties would arise in making an accurate estimate of every bridge which had to be made, when so many hundreds of small bridges were involved. In this ease not only was the estimate larger, but the bridges had been made more elaborate, and the cost of iron and steel had risen greatly. The hon. Member surely did not wish the Committee to think it was possible over land which had been only partially surveyed to put out contracts for bridge work four or five years before it was needed, and without knowing in many cases the exact sizes of the bridges required.
MR. PERKS: It is possible, and that is exactly what is always done.
MR. BRODRICKsaid large orders were given in the first instance, but he doubted whether any contractor would give orders under such circumstances. As was well known, in many recent railway undertakings in the United Kingdom there had been a very great disturbance of estimates on account of the large rise in prices of iron and steel. As to ballast the hon. Member answered himself; because the Committee did not arrange originally to ballast the whole of the line, and now, according to the hon. Member, competent persons were of opinion that the ballast would not be required. Therefore, what the Committee were advised originally competent persons now said would not be required. It was not an agreeable task to come before the Committee asking for an increase of nearly £2,000,000 on an original estimate of £3,000,000; but he submitted that where there was a change in the nature of the work proposed to be done the Committee were bound to expend a larger sum, and they were bound also to expect an increase or a possible disturbance of the estimate from the fact that the land had been insufficiently surveyed. He had previously endeavoured to show the Committee, and he still thought, that considering this was a great Imperial undertaking from which not merely commercial but great political results were expected, the actual expenditure which had been made and the actual sum involved was not such as should frighten the Committee from voting the money.
MR. BAYLEY: In the closing remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs the whole House will have a considerable amount of sympathy. The right hon. Gentleman has had a very difficult task, and he has performed it with that usual dexterity with which the Foreign Office performs such tasks. At the same time I wish to say that I do not think the right hon. Gentleman has replied in any satisfactory way to the criticism that railway men and men of business should have been placed in charge of this railway.
MR. BRODRICK: All the members of the Committee are either business men or railway men.
MR. BAYLEY: We want to get to know who is the person really responsible for the management and the building of this railway. This Report we have in our hands throws some daylight into this Uganda Railway construction at last. We have the fact pointed out here that the Crown Agent is the responsible person for the building of this railway. The Foreign Office have had no more to do with it than the signing of the contract. The agreement which the Foreign Office make with the Crown Agent out there is that he is to receive 1 per cent. on all stores ordered, and this payment covers the whole expense, including the keeping of the accounts. The Foreign Office tell us in their Report that £3,000,000 has been expended and that during the four and a half years which this railway has been under construction £15,801 has been paid in commission to the Crown Agent in addition to his salary. This is what has been paid, according to the Report, for transacting the financial business of the committee and for the keeping of the accounts of the railway. But the Crown Agent has not done his duty, because we have not got the accounts for this year.
MR. BRODRICK: How could you get them? With all respect to the hon. Member, this mode of argument is ridiculous. He is asking for accounts something like six weeks before they can be delivered.
MR. BAYLEY: But you have not got the accounts for last year. You put this power into the hands of a man and you pay him 1 per cent. commission for the making of all contracts and the placing of all orders for the supply of stores and material and the supervision of all contracts. What experience has the Crown Agent had in passing railway trucks and locomotives? Has he had any experience in engineering at all? What does this gentleman do who gets £12,000 in four years? He orders as much as the engineers will allow him. He orders ninety-two new locomotives for 360 miles of railway through a desert without a village and without a house near it and with scarcely any traffic. That is one locomotive for every five miles. And how many trucks does he order? Why, he orders ten trucks for every locomotive, or 942 in all. That is for a line without

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a particle of traffic on it. All that is ordered besides goods and passenger stock. I think that if the Foreign Office do not stop this kind of thing and make a bargain with somebody who understands the ordering of locomotives and railway trucks, you will probably find a locomotive for every mile of the railway and ten trucks for every locomotive, and the railway will eventually be covered with locomotives and trucks. No business firm would ever think of bringing such a Report before any body of business men in this world. Some of our large railways have not much more than one locomotive for every five miles, but here you have got this proportion without the slightest traffic at all. It has been complained that, after spending £50,000 upon the original survey of this line, you had to alter the plans, which caused an extra expenditure of £2,000. The reason for that was that you never looked at the thing, from the very commencement, from a business point of view. Let us look at the number of engineers you have got. You have two superintendents of works at £1,000 each; seven district engineers at £800 each; twenty-three assistant engineers at £420 each; one locomotive superintendent at a £1,000; and three assistant locomotive superintendents at £833. Now all these locomotives should be new and in perfect working order, and should not need to be constantly patched up. I am sure you do not want all this immense staff of engineers. At any rate, if you began with that immense staff, why did they not carry out the line in a different way, thus avoiding all this unnecessary expense. It is no use crying over spilled milk, but the House has a right to ask why the Foreign Office did not employ clear-headed business men who have had experience and knowledge of railway building. You have not got such men, as is evident by the very fact I have pointed out of having ninety-two locomotives with ten trucks to each locomotive. We want men who understand this business, and who have been brought up to it all their lives, to control this construction in a satisfactory and proper manner, and then there would be no dissatisfaction in regard to the spending of this money. I hope the Foreign Office will look into this matter, for the further they go on as at present with this want of business knowledge the worse they ill become, and I am sure there will be
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another large Vote asked for if something is not done.
MR. BRYNMOE JONES: I wish to say a few words in regard to the way in which this great undertaking has been conducted. I had an opportunity of saying something about this question in a previous debate, and the right hon. Gentleman opposite, in the courteous language which he always adopts towards us, answered some of the objections which I then urged. I will not say that he answered them entirely satisfactorily, but perhaps, in some respects, he did get rid of the points made against him. But I do not think that he really answered the comparison which I made. I said that when I noticed the great difference between the original estimate for this railway and the actual cost upon the present estimate, without in the least being a business man, I asked myself what really could be the cause of the difference. I compared it with the railway from Beira to Fort Salisbury. I am not going into the details of the points I made about that railway, but the right hon. Gentleman said my comparison was not a fair one. Again I have been in communication with an eminent firm who have made more miles of railway in South Africa than any other firm of contractors. I am informed that in the work of making the railway from Mombasa to Lake Victoria, the general conditions are practically the same as those of the railway from Beira to Umtali. That you cannot have exactly the same gradients and curves and embankments follows as a matter of course, but the general conditions are the same. You have the same conditions with respect to the country, swage life, and the difficulty of rising from the sea level to the high watershed or plateau above. Then let us look again at the difference between the cost of the two undertakings. The right hon. Gentleman has not denied the statement that the cost of the railway from Beira to Fort Salisbury was £4,800 a mile. We are now asked in this case £7,505, and I observe that the right hon. Gentleman has carefully avoided giving an undertaking that this shall be the last and final demand on behalf of the Government in connection with this undertaking. The right hon. Gentleman has not answered our point—16,000 labourers have been employed on this undertaking, and I am

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credibly informed that only 3,000 were employed on the Beira. Why this enormous difference? Why do the agents of the Government employ 16,000 labourers when contractors who have done similar work in another part of Africa have been able to do it with 3,000, with one white employee to every ten natives, and in point of time the Beira and Fort Salisbury Railway compares favourably with this. I do not want to go over all the ground which I covered on the last occasion, but I should like to correct the right hon. Gentleman with regard to one matter. According to my recollection he said, in reference to a point which was taken by some of us on this side of the House, as to whether a contractor could be found who would undertake this work on reasonable terms, it was impossible to get any contractor to undertake a work which was at once doubtful, and possibly, though improbably, unremunerative. From that, I apprehend, he meant that nobody would tender for it. Now, I respectfully say that if he looks at the documents in his office he will find an offer was made by a responsible firm to carry on the work on the report laid before Parliament. It was not accepted; and I should like to hear from the right hon. Gentleman why he gave us the impression that no one had offered to take from the shoulders of the Government the responsibility of carrying out this work. That is a question to which the Committee is entitled to have a reply. Another point upon which I am entirely dissatisfied is the gauge of the line. The present line is a 3 feet 3 inch railway, which nearly approximates to the French metre system. How does that come about? The railway from Cairo southward to Omdurman is 3 feet 6 inch, and all the railways in South Africa with one exception are 3 feet 6 inch gauge, and one part of the cost of the Beira-Salisbury railway was caused by the alteration from what was originally contemplated to bring it into line with the others. Who advised the Foreign Office to build on this gauge, and on what basis could he advise the Government to do it? He must have known that he could not have saved any material, and that the best course must have been to adopt the gauge of the country. hat was the advantage to be derived from it? We have never had an answer yet to that question. I have not the slightest desire to object to this rail-
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way. I desire it to be made, and I have never voted against the Government on any matter involving expenditure on making railways, and the right hon. Gentleman will recognise that that is the case. My point is that the work has been mismanaged. I attack no individual; I ask for no specific name. I only express the view which I believe to be true, that there has been no management from first to last. Those are the main points I wished to press on the right hon. Gentleman, and, in conclusion, I would ask him whether he is satisfied that this railway can be made for £8,505 per mile, and whether there are not responsible contractors to be found who would come forward and undertake to complete the work at a reasonable rate.
MR. JOHN BURNS: I wish to say a word with regard to this railway, but before I deal with the points of the previous speakers I want to ask the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs as to a point put in some slight respect by the hon. Member for one of the Lincoln constituencies with regard to the parallel strips of land along the railway. I believe this railway runs through territory that we have acquired almost entirely by right of conquest, and the reason I raise the point which I am now about to raise is this: Every American knows that in every case the railways received concessions from individual States and Federal States for making a railway. The American railways were built on this condition, that they should have strips of land from six to twelve miles wide besides the railway handed over to the railway company, and the effect of that has been prejudicial to every industry in America that did not participate in the advantage, and I do not want, in the case of the Uganda Railway, for the people—say 100 years hence—to suffer from the same cause. If the railway becomes a success, which I very much doubt, I do not want j the Foreign Office to lightly give away or sell strips of land close to the railway of | three, six, or twelve miles wide to concessionnaires, a proceeding which may operate prejudicially to the prosperity of the land through which the railway runs. If this is to be a State railway, I would ask them to take all the land within a reasonable distance of the railway, and not

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to sell to any one who may come along for the purpose of exploiting or developing it, because if the railway is a success, and this laud is let to concessionnaires, it will be permanently prejudicial to the State. I would ask the right hon. Gentleman to be very careful how he deals with the land parallel with the line. If this is to be a State railway we ought to see that it is to be a permanent benefit to this country and advantageous to the country through which it runs. Having said that I turn to our subject. The other night I gathered from the Under Secretary that the Crown agent was Sir Clement Hill, of the Foreign Office, and not Sir Montague Ommaney. I am now told that is not the fact, and that the Crown agent is Sir Montague Ommaney. All the remarks I applied to Sir Clement Hill on that occasion I intended to apply to the Crown agent only, and I desire now to know whether Sir Montague Ommaney is an engineer, because it appears to me that if we are to have railways conducted by the Foreign Office we ought to have them conducted in a businesslike way, and it seems to me that you ought to have dispensed with the Crown agent altogether and appointed a general manager and resident engineer in Uganda. It is impossible for a Committee which, however capable, sits in England to know the practical details, and have the control over a vast concern like the making of a railway, and unless we vest absolute and exclusive responsibility in a general manager on the spot, and have under him a responsible resident superintendent engineer, who has control of all the labour and the carrying out of all the contracts, it cannot be carried out successfully. Instead of doing that we find a committee composed, no doubt, of distinguished persons who are helping the Government, but who are not on the spot, and there has been mismanagement and extravagance in expenditure. I want to sec a general manager and superintendent engineer appointed, and let them live on the spot. Then, as to the staff. We have seventy Europeans, who receive in salary£50,000. That is simply enormous. Fancy John Aird or any of the other great contractors employing such a staff at such a salary to build 360 miles of railway! It is absolutely preposterous. The Blackwall Tunnel, costing a million of money, only had one resident engineer at £1,000. Now, I want to safeguard my-
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self against the suggestion that I am making insinuations. I find by this memorandum that the Foreign Office are employing 16,000 labourers, and I notice that the amount of men does not quite square with the amount of pay per day. I know that these men are employed as they must be out there through their chiefs, or through gangers; and where men are employed in that way there is a possibility of considerable leakage in the payment of them. Now, I do not suggest that anything is wrong, but what I think is, where men are employed in this way through gangers or middlemen, especially if they are employed by Greek gangers, there is reason to be very careful, if not suspicious. I want to know whether the men on the pay list, and are paid, work, or whether this railway suffers from what we frequently suffer in this country, what is technically called "dead 'uns,"— that is to say, the pay-sheet showing 1,000, of which only 950 work. The most careful contractor has a hard job to prevent it, and the system is, I believe, not unknown in Government Departments. But in South Africa it is extremely necessary to see that the men employed get the money, and that the gangers do not impose on the foreman. When I was working on similar work I found it very difficult to distinguish the number of men whom I have described in the technical phrase dead 'uns. I do not think I have much more to say further than this, even at the eleventh hour, that the time has arrived when this advisory committee should be put on one side in favour of a general manager and engineer resident in Uganda, and that everything should be under their control. I do not think that the Crown agent should be employed on commission; it is a very dangerous precedent to establish. Commission in any form is mischievous in principle, and I think we ought to get a good man and give him full power and authority, and not let him be dependent on commission. The discrepancies in the accounts show that the accounts are prepared in a most elementary manner, and the idea of having 92 locomotives for making 360 miles of railway was ridiculous in the extreme. I believe you have wasted money because you have had no resident manager and engineer, and I agree with my hon. friend when he says that had you taken the proper initial step of having a proper man at the right time,

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you could have got the work done on very reasonable terms. The whole thing has been mismanaged because you had this advisory committee at home giving its services gratuitously, and you never can get something for nothing, and you would have done better if you had taken the two contractors who sit on that side of the House. Five years hence this case will be quoted against you, and it will be said that no contractors could be got to make a railway in the unhealthy districts of Uganda. That is an additional reason why the Government should have shown the fullest circumspection in the judicious selection of officers who would have made a less bad job of this very bad job. I am a friend of the Foreign Office on this matter. I do not blame them altogether, for they must learn experience in the school of adversity. I ask the Under Secretary to regard me as a friend of State railways, but they must be carried on on right lines. It is because this railway has not been carried on on right lines that it is more costly than it should have been. There is a sad passage at the end of this memorandum. I find that out of 16,000 labourers employed 464 have died. That is a tremendous death-roll for a peaceful operation. But, further, there were 1,300 in hospital and 160 invalided home to India. That indicates a condition of things which we ought to minimise if possible. I would appeal to the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, now that we are expressing sympathy with native labourers in another part of Africa, to see that these men are not overworked or badly treated, and that medical stores and attendance are provided for the poor fellows. If there is one duty upon the Government, as Englishmen, when engaged in a work of this kind, it is to see that the men are well paid, well fed, well treated, and that their medical comforts are in excess of rather than under the necessary standard. Above all, they ought to see that the labourers when at work are provided with more protection from the ravages of wild beasts and disease than these men have been. As one who always received the utmost kindness from natives, I say that every kindness shown them comes back in a hundred ways. It begets cheerfulness and willingness at work.
MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I have attended all the three debates which we have had on this subject, and have not yet ventured to address the House. In a part of the reply of the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs we have had the most astonishing confession of mismanagement in regard to this matter I over heard in the House of Commons. The right hon. Gentleman said that the whole question merely resolved itself into an underestimate of the cost. The under-estimating, however, is really very great, seeing that the original estimate was £1,750,000, that it was raised to £2,250,000, that it was afterwards raised to £3,000,000, and that it now stands at £5,000,000, although the latter sum is for a lesser mileage of railway than the original estimate of £1,750,000. It has been said that we have failed to point out any specific point of mismanagement. I think anyone reading these Papers or listening to the speeches must have felt, at all events in regard to some important matters, that there was a considerable amount of muddle which has not been cleared up. We are told in the Papers that in regard to the very great increase in the cost of bridges, the original survey of the line was made in the dry season, and that the surveyors did not anticipate what bridges would be required during the wet season in Uganda, when the rivers are full of water.
MR. BRODRICK: With due respect, what I said was that in the dry season it was impossible to estimate what bridges would be required in a wet season and what they would cost.
MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I certainly should find it very difficult; but my business is not that of an engineer or surveyor. It shows, however, great incompetence on the part of someone, when there is a difference on the estimates between £200,000 and £670,000. That is on the shoulders of those who drew up the report that the survey was taken in a dry season. Then as to the ballasting of the line; surely it ought to have been decided at the original stage whether it was to be a light line or a heavy line. There is another point, which is not a question of estimates. We understand from the reports of the committee, and from what the right hon. Gentleman himself

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has said, that in consequence of subsequent discoveries there is a necessity to take up from the base a considerable amount of condensed water. That surely is a matter that ought to have been discovered at the initial stage of the line. Then there is the labour question referred to by the hon. Member for Battersea, regarding which some explanation should be forthcoming from the Government. The hon. Member for Swansea pointed out that we had experience of the same form of construction of railway in the case of the Beira line, and in that case the Indian labour amounted to 3,000 men, compared in this case with 16,000. As to the question of locomotives, that is not a matter of cost, but of common sense. It will take some years yet, or at least a great many months, before the line is completed, but apparently all the locomotives required both for passenger and goods traffic have been purchased. The consequence will be that these locomotives will rot and rust for many years, and when required will probably have disappeared in the sands of Africa. That is enough to condemn the mode in which this railway has been constructed from the beginning. Then, the railway is constructed on a gauge absolutely different from all other British railways in other parts of Africa. We have hoped to have connection between British lines of railway from the South to the North of Africa, but this line is constructed on a gauge which will prevent it being a trunk line in connection with any other British railway system. The right hon. Gentleman said— and this is the only point he can put to his credit—that whatever may be the criticism in other respects, the cost of management had been very small—he put it at 7 per cent. I am bound to say, with the hon. Member for Battersea, that if cheap it has been very nasty. It would have been much better for us to have had competent, well-paid men in Africa than honorary officers mismanaging things in England. I have the greatest lack of confidence in the management of this Foreign Office committee, not only for their conduct in the past, but because we have had no suggestion that these estimates of £5,000,000 are anything more than a round figure; and they can give us no grounds for the belief that the railway will be completed for that sum, which is nearly double the
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original estimate. While the committee have grossly under-estimated the capital expenditure on the railway, I believe they are now grossly over-estimating the amount of traffic of a remunerative character likely to come to the railway. I do not think there is any likelihood of the railway being ever in a true sense of the term a paying concern. The right hon. Gentleman expects that the traffic receipts will be £120,000, and he puts this as a considerable asset against the capital expenditure. But I find that instead of there being anything approaching that, these receipts, for the last half of 1899, including stores, were only 483,000 rupees, whereas the working expenses were 1,400,000 rupees.
MR. BRODRICK: Perhaps the hon. Gentleman will allow me to say that the working expenses included the carriage of railway stores and a great mass of material. It is impossible to compare like with unlike.
MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I admit the validity of the argument in regard to the million and a half of rupees as cost of traffic. But I understand that the traffic does not pay working expenses.
MR. BEODEICK: The working expenses, including the carriage of all stores and material, is less than a million and a half rupees. If you take the traffic other than stores at the same rate it would amount to 150,000 rupees and more.
MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: After the exhibition of incompetency of this committee to estimate the capital expenditure, I am not prepared to accept their estimate of traffic when they do not give us figures to support it. It seems to me a great mistake for a great and very competent Department, such as the Foreign Office, to undertake work for which they are obviously unfitted. This is the sort of work which should have been in the hands of contractors. I agree with Lord Rosebery when he says that of all departments of Government the one least qualified to construct a railway was the Foreign Office. I have no particular suggestion to make at the present time. We have the railway in hand: and we have got to finish it. But when you have gross ineompetency of this sort, I think some inquiry ought to be made by the

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House of Commons whether we cannot finish it at some less expense than this. It is this sort of thing which brings so much discredit on what is called Imperialism and expansion in England. As the hon. Member for the Berwick Division said the other day, if you annex a large territory like this you are bound to have a railway, but there is no reason why it should have been so mismanaged as it has been.
MR. DILLON: As far as my recollection serves me the right hon. Gentleman was wrong in one important particular in regard to this matter. He said that the land in Uganda was England's by right of conquest. Now I recollect that when the late Sir Lewis Pellet was challenged on the subject he produced an enormous number of treaties with African chiefs, not one of whose names I could pronounce. But the reason why I have risen is to make one more effort to obtain from the Under Secretary some explanation as to the labour cost. The men who made the first surveys, including Colonel Macdonald, stated in support of their estimates of the cost of the railway their expectation of obtaining large masses of native labour at the price of fourpence per day. Now this region had been traversed by travellers for many years before, and the conditions on which native labour could be obtained were perfectly well known. I want to know how it came about that the calculation that the rough work of this railway could be done by local native labour has been totally disappointed. Since the railway was commenced, all that region has been desolated by the most appalling famine, and it appears horrible when we read descriptions of the condition in which men, women, and children were found there, that we should have been obliged to go to India and import 10,000 labourers, when the opportunity was afforded of giving employment to the local famine-stricken population. No explanation has been given why the local native labourers were to be paid only fourpence per day and the imported Indian labourer at fourteen pence a day, or why it is that there has been this horrible mortality among the Indian labourers. In regard to that point I wish to know whether there was any difficulty about the wages with the local natives. Fourpence per day, even in Africa, is a very low wage, and I presume it was
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without food. In South Africa I do not suppose any natives would work for four-pence or a shilling a day. Wages are fairly high, and considering the traffic that has been going on for some considerable time on this route, and considering that the Swahilis have been in the habit of being hired as labourers, they must have been paid a higher wage than fourpence a day. I would ask whether before recourse was had on a wholesale scale to Indian coolies at four-teenpence a day, any offer was made to the native labourer's at more than four-pence a day? There is one other point which we are entitled to have explained. In the original estimate it was said that it was only intended to allow for the importation of 7,500 labourers, mostly skilled, and the price of Indian skilled labour was estimated at twelve pence a day. Now this Paper says that the actual amount paid for unskilled labour was fourteen pence a day. That is extraordinary. It seems to me that the Under Secretary of State ought to explain how that estimate was arrived at. The persons who made it must have been grossly ignorant of the cost of Indian labour. But the point I am chiefly anxious to have explained is how can it be accounted for that in a country where famine was raging and the people starving, 16,000 labourers had to be imported from India.
MR. WEIR: The right hon. Gentleman has told us that this railway is managed by a committee of experts. My opinion is that it is managed by a committee of muddlers of the first water. What have this committee been doing? They have been ordering goods from hand to mouth. It is the duty of railway contractors and all persons engaged in the construction of large works to look a long way ahead. If their specifications had been properly drawn up, the committee would have ordered their material a long way ahead, but that would not suit the gentlemen who are paid by commission, because, of course, the higher the price of the material the greater their commission. I wonder the right hon. Gentleman has not sufficient business tact to notice that. As soon as ever the right hon. Gentleman can take the work out of the hands of these muddlers the better it will be for the British taxpayer. I do not believe

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in unpaid services, and the services of this committee should be paid for. The , Crown Agent's commission amounts to £15,801, and there is also an expenditure of £12,463 for office expenses, etc., to which the right hon. Gentleman did not refer. Why should we not be supplied with details? The right hon. Gentleman also told us that he could not now arrange to alter the gauge. I do not know at what stage the committee took up the work, but I think they took it up early enough to have this question of gauge considered. What an absurdity it is to have different gauges in different parts of Africa, when your policy is to have one railway from Cape Town to Cairo. That railway is being pushed forward, I am glad to say, with a great deal of energy, but when it reaches Uganda a different gauge will be found there. I maintain that the committee ought to have attended to that matter. The right hon. Gentleman says it would be an expensive business to alter the gauge. I have no doubt it would be costly at the present time, but I maintain that a serious blunder was made at an early stage in the construction. The right hon. Gentleman was asked if any land had boon disposed of along the railway, and his answer was that no land had been disposed of, but that applications for land had been received. The right hon. Gentleman knows that there is no population along parts of the railway, and who is going to purchase land in these parts? The planters would have to adopt a system of compulsory labour, under which the natives would be compelled to work so many days each year. My feeling is that the right hon. Gentleman will have to wait a long time before he disposes of any land along that line of railway. Then he referred to the question of bridges. In the construction of bridges, would not a competent engineer have allowed for the rise of the rivers during the wet season? It was the business of the engineer to have done that. The right hon. Gentleman says that bridges have had to be made stronger, and that in itself shows what a useless set of men are looking after this business. He also tells us that iron and steel are more costly now. Why, every schoolboy knows that, but I say that this committee of muddlers ought to have arranged for their contract several years ago, before the enormous increase in the price of iron and steel occurred. We are told that only one member of the com-
132
mittee is paid. Is the committee to-day the same committee that started the work? I find that a sum of £10,229 has been paid for land and as compensation. Paid to whom? I suppose the most of it has been expended in gin, whisky and rum to make the chiefs drunk. I do not blame the right hon. Gentleman for that, because that is how business is carried on in that part of the world. I happen to know. I have not been engaged in any job myself, nor am I interested pecuniarily in any venture in that part of the world, but I make it my business to read up these matters, and I have also the benefit of acquaintance with people who have lived for many years in that part of the world. It has been asked why native labour was not obtained, and fourpence per day was said to be rather a low figure. I think it is rather a high figure under the circumstances. I say there has been the grossest mismanagement, and unless the right hon. Gentleman makes some alterations, such as were suggested by the hon. Member for Battersea, who is a practical man, and unless one or two efficient men are sent out, I prophesy that the taxpayers of this country will have to put their hands in their pockets for a great deal more money than £5,000,000 before this railway is constructed. Why is the railway being constructed? Is it for the development of Empire? We all want to have ours the most glorious Empire under the sun. We are in for it, and I suppose we will have to pay for it. But I venture to say that some common sense ought to be brought to bear on this matter. I would urge the right hon. Gentleman to take this railway out of the hands of the muddlers and put it into the hands of competent men who will carry out the work in a businesslike fashion.
MR. BRODRICK: I am placed in this extraordinary position—that every hon. Member who has criticised this railway scheme has contradicted one of the strong points made by some hon. Member who preceded him. For instance, the hon. Member for Poplar, who spoke with an amount of acrimony rare as coming from him, said that the administration was too cheap, whereas the hon. Member for Battersea complained that it was too, dear.
MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: I said it was cheap and very nasty, and that I would rather have it dearer.
MR. BRODRICK: What I stated was that the hon. Gentleman considered the administration too cheap; I left out the latter part of the phrase. On the other hand, the hon. Member for Battersea says it is too dear. Again, the hon. Member for Poplar said that there ought to be more highly paid officials conducting the work in Africa, and the hon. Member for Battersea urged that there were too many men on the spot drawing large salaries. In the same way the hon. Member for Gateshead complained very vigorously that our locomotives were too few and too cheap, whereas a tremendous attack has been made upon us because it is said our locomotives were too numerous and too costly. The hon. Gentleman for Poplar, who is never tired of addressing this House on questions of slavery, declared over and over again that no forced labour should be used in regard to this railway. I informed the House the other night that it was because we were unable to get free labour in Africa that we were forced to import Indian labour, and now the hon. Gentleman has the face to get up and ask why it is that the Government have not used African labour. He is so anxious to find any stick to beat the Government with that he is prepared even to go back on his own previous speeches and magnificent perorations. He appeals to the House not to sanction any system of forced labour, although he knows perfectly well that there are only two ways of getting labour in Africa or elsewhere—either voluntary or by force. We have also been attacked to-night with regard to the health of the Indian coolies. We were told that they were dying by thousands. The hon. Member for Batter-sea appealed to us to instruct the European managers in Africa to take more care of the health of the coolies. But what are the statistics? The death rate is about 29 per 1,000, which is below the average of a great many English towns. [An HON. MEMBER: Oh, oh!] Yes; there are many English towns with that death rate, and in India there are quite a number of places where the death rate is higher.
MR. JOHN BURNS: Not for adult labourers. It includes all ages, especially
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infants, among which mortality is excessive.
MR. BRODRICK: But the men were brought from one climate to a totally different climate, and some increase in the death rate might be expected, and I think it is very creditable to the British officials that they have managed under great difficulties to keep the death rate so low. But of all the attacks which have been made on the Government, the one which seems to me to have less weight than any of the others is the attack with regard to the question of the gauge. It is well known that the railway terminates on the Lake, and that the connection can only be resumed by rail at the other side of the lake, a distance of 250 or 300 miles. Who ever thought of complaining because English railways are not of the same gauge as the railways of Franco? Who ever thought that the people of France were extremely unwise in having different gauges from the railways in England? As there is a break of over 250 miles the question of gauge does not really make any material difference. I have been asked by almost every speaker whether I would not guarantee that the money now asked for would complete the railway. I am not going to put myself in such an absurd position as to stand bail for a thing regarding which no man can under the circumstances give an absolute guarantee. All I can do is to bring before the Committee facts and figures. We have spent 60 per cent. of the money, but we have done in every respect more than 60 per cent. of the work. The actual line open is over 60 per cent., the actual embankment constructed is over 80 per cent., and the locomotives in hand are 100 per cent. It is very easy to divide the number of miles by the number of locomotives, but obviously you require a larger number of locomotives when you are bringing up a large amount of material on a single line, and it would be very poor economy to get locomotives, costing about £2,000 each, which might not be subsequently required. With regard to the expenditure I do not apologise for it at all. It is said that the managing members of the Committee ought to be in Africa. I do not think that should be so. If we are to have a managing board in London, we must have as managing member an ex-

135
pert who is responsible for the work, and we must also have a competent man in charge in Africa. We have in Africa a competent engineer at a salary of £1,600 a year, and, so far as we know he is an excellent man for the work. The point which I should like the Committee to remember is that it is perfectly clear that the traffic is paying its own way. The railway is already earning from £60,000 to £65,000 a year. We can only estimate from that, but I think that we may estimate that when the traffic is no longer one way we shall be able to double the present traffic. We fully believe that the railway will pay its way in the future so far as the working expenses are concerned. It is of course a question as to how far the capital sum can be met by the receipts from the railway. I can only deeply regret that so many members of the Committee have taken so sinister a view on the matter of this railway. I do not think that any contractor under the circumstances of Uganda, and looking to the conditions under which the country was surveyed, and the information on which this House proceeded, would have found it wise to undertake a large and expensive contract. I can only say this—that I do not believe any body of men, paid or unpaid, could have given more earnest and complete attention to their work than this Committee has done. I believe that in dealing with a railway of this character you are certainly taking a leap in the dark when you proceed without a complete survey. This House determined not to wait, but to proceed upon a reconnaissance survey, and in the circumstances some errors were unavoidable. I can only congratulate myself that, although there has been a chorus of dissatisfaction on the other side of the House at the manner in which the Foreign Office constructed this railway, an equally unanimous chorus of satisfaction has been expressed on this side, and with that I am willing to rest content.
MR. LABOUCHERE: The right hon. Gentleman seems perfectly surprised that we have not gone into all the history of this railroad and dealt with its political and other aspects. This is not a Second Reading debate. The House has already decided that this railway is
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to be made, and we are endeavouring at the present moment to induce the Foreign Office to act as practical businesslike men. If the right hon. Gentleman wished it, and if it were in order, I should be happy to finish the evening by discussing the whole question of the Uganda Railway, but that would be out of order. My hon. friend was strongly in favour of a railway being built to Uganda, but it does not follow that he was in favour of the Foreign Office constructing the railway and fooling all over Africa until it comes to a place called Florence Bay. "We do not know anything about Florence Bay," the Government say, "but that is enough for the stupid donkeys sent to represent the people in the House of Commons." An attack has been made on the hon. Member for Poplar for referring to the work as cheap and nasty. When my hon. friend referred to the work as cheap and nasty he meant that you could not plead that you have not spent money for nothing. It may be urged that it is not so. The right hon. Gentleman seems to have his knife in my hon. friend the Member for Poplar. He said he was an advocate of forced labour. Why, it is owing to the action of my hon. friend that there is no forced labour on this line. When the reconnaissance survey was made, it was estimated that you would get 16,000 Africans. Everybody knew perfectly well that it would be absolutely impossible to get 16,000 Africans without some sort of forced labour, and it was the protests made by my hon. friend against your slaving these unfortunate people, that forced you to alter your proposal. The right hon. Gentleman need not take credit to himself and the Government. You ought to give credit to my hon. friend and to others on this side of the House. The only item I would justify in the whole thing is the wage you have to pay these coolies.
MR. BRODRICK: I am sorry to destroy the hon. Gentleman's point. My predecessor, who introduced this Bill to the House, distinctly stated that no forced labour would be employed. If you give credit, you should give it where it is due.
MR. LABOUCHERE: We were told that no "forced labour" would be employed in Rhodesia and the Transvaal. That is the general term employed. There

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would have been forced labour here if it had not been for the noble exertions of my hon. friend. The right hon. Gentleman twitted me for what I said six years i ago in a debate, when I complained of the ill-health of the Indians employed on the railroad. He pointed to them as being as healthy as any in England. Only about 1,000 had died, and it was said there was no English town where the percentage was more favourable. I take the round figures. You have 10,000 coolies employed there. In the last year 450 died and 1,500 were invalided. In this exceptionally healthy place you have one man in eight cither invalided or dead. I think the disease and mortality among these unfortunate men is rather high. The right hon. Gentleman talked about the gauge and scoffed at the valuable observations made by the hon. Gentleman behind me on that subject. He asked what this railway has to do with any railway we may make from the Cape to Cairo. I did at least suppose that it had entered the minds of the Foreign Office Committee that in making this railroad to Florence Bay, which is 100 miles south of Uganda, we might make a connection with the Cape to Cairo line. This railway is to go to Florence Bay, and there it is to stop. Does the right hon. Gentleman know anything about i Florence Bay? He has not told us about it, and I will tell you why. I don't think that more than a dozen white men have ever seen Florence Bay. The reason is that it is one of the most un-healthy parts of the Lake, and even natives cannot live there. Yet this railway is to dump down its passengers in the midst of a swamp. I ask how are they to be carried to Uganda? "Oh," said one right hon. Gentleman, "we have a steamer on the Lake." There are ninety-five locomotives to bring them up to the Lake, and one steamer is to carry them further. Then the right hon. Gentleman said he had no doubt a company would take up the matter and put steamers on the Lake. I hope for the sake of the taxpayers they will do so, but I say for myself I will not take shares in that company. The right hon. Gentleman has entirely blinked the connection which had to be made between Florence Bay and Uganda. In Florence Bay you have to make harbours and piers, and you have to put steamers on the Lake if nobody else will do it to save you. These intelligent
138
gentlemen, the Foreign Office clerks, when they found that the railway was costing so much, thought they would make a little economy themselves by reducing the length of the railway fifty miles. The statement did not appear in a single one of the Papers except in the most incidental way. I think it would have been satisfactory if the right hon. Gentleman had included in the statistics laid before the House the additional expenditure for making these piers, not only at Florence Bay but at the point of landing at Uganda, and also for the provision of steamers. The right hon. Gentleman told us to think of the great advances which had been made, and to look at the number of locomotives and carriages they had already. He in his last statement said that we are to make £100,000 per annum out of this railroad. That is to be the gross profit from one train per diem. At the commencement it was to be one train per week. How in the name of wonder can you require ninety locomotives and 202 passenger carriages for one train per diem? The fact is that these gentlemen at the Foreign Office do not know much about railroads. They said, "Here is something we don't understand, let us throw dust in the eyes of the House of Commons." The right hon. Gentleman said he would not guarantee what it would cost, but he did guarantee that the railway would pay its way. The right hon. gentleman has no right to make these assumptions to the House. He cannot, with the data now before him, know more about the matter than any Member of this House. The right hon. Gentleman talks about the present traffic, but it has been shown that there is no traffic in the territory between Uganda or Florence Bay and Mombasa. Where you get your passengers must be from the employees of the railroad. You do not get them from Uganda. Will the right hon. Gentleman get up and tell me that the savages are using the railway? I saw recently that there had been an increase of the traffic, and I knew that the right hon. Gentleman would boast about it. I made inquiries how this happened to be. I found it was due to the fact that the Foreign Office people allowed the coolies holidays to go backward and forward to Mombasa. That is the passenger traffic on which the right hon. Gentleman is asking the House to spend

139
five millions sterling, under the impression that they will get it back. We have been fooled, and there can be no question about it. The right hon. Gentleman comes down here and tells us what the construction will cost, but he will not guarantee it. He says that a little more | than 60 per cent. of the whole line has | been finished up to the present moment for 60 per cent. of the capital. Does the right, hon. Gentleman know that it is easy to make railroads in some places and not easy to make them in others? If you were making a railway from Paris to Italy you would find that the real cost would be in going through or over the Alps. If you came and said, "We have made half the railway and only spent half the capital," and if you had still to make a tunnel through the Alps, everybody would laugh at the right hon. Gentleman. I am as certain as I am of my own existence that before we finish this Uganda railway somebody representing the Foreign Office will appear in this House and say that errors have been made, and that one, two, three or four millions are required. Admitting that the railway has to be made, and made if you like to Florence Bay, we want it made on strict business and commercial principles, because in that way I think we will get a better railroad for the money and the line will cost less. After all the mistakes made by this committee of the Foreign Office we cannot induce the right hon. Gentleman to change the system. He says that this system is to go on. If that is to be done we shall have to spend twice what is necessary. As to the Crown Agents' commissions, I really cannot understand why you should employ these Crown Agents at all. You have a director of contracts at a fixed salary.
MR. BRODRICK: We have no director of contracts.
MR. LABQUCHERE: You have directors of contracts for the War Office and the Navy. If you had applied to one of these directors he would have done the work. He is a servant of the Government collectively, and you could make him do it. Why you are giving the Crown Agents £15,000 I cannot for the life of me understand. Further, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether these contracts were put out to tender?
MR. BRODRICK: Some were.
MR. LABOUCHERE: The right hon. Gentleman says some were. Why were not the others put out to tender? It seems to me that when you employ a gentleman who receives his salary through commission you ought to insist, when you have large contracts to make for rails and such like articles, that public tenders should be invited in order to get the best article in the best market. The Committee of the Foreign Office has no survey before it, and yet it makes these wild, reckless estimates. We have wasted money on this railway, and we will continue to waste money as long as the present Government are in office.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: When the first estimate of £3,000,000 was submitted we were told that it covered a fair and generous margin. You have very soon afterwards another demand for £2,000,000 more. It is absurd, and it would be unreasonable to suppose that £5,000,000 will cover the cost. You cannot expect it to cover the cost when the construction of the railway is put into the hands of gentlemen whom the hon. Member for Ross and Cromarty calls muddlers. They are not muddlers in their own profession. They are brought up to copy despatches, they can negotiate, and they can keep all the secrets they do not know; but when you call upon them to construct a railway you put an unreasonable demand upon them. If those Foreign Office gentlemen gave their time for nothing to the work of this railway, what became of their Foreign Office work? Surely either they had no work at all to do in connection with the railway, or their Foreign Office work must be disgracefully neglected.
MR. BRODRICK: Both of the gentlemen on the committee have worked a very large number of hours overtime, and had not had their vacation for a considerable period.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: My experience of one of them is that he does not get to the office before eleven or twelve o'clock.
MR. BRODRICK: He is at the office till eight o'clock at night.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Are they fully occupied with Foreign Office work or railway work? They cannot do a full day's work at both, and if you ask them to do two days work in one day's time you are destroying the lives of valuable public servants. I conceive that it is a ridiculous mistake to employ officials who have not the training necessary for constructing a railway. You might as well ask the bishops and archbishops to go out and command the army in South Africa. This would be better, because some of the bishops are naturally fighting men. Whether the cost is £5,000,000 or £7,000,000 I am afraid we have no choice in the matter. The 1 per cent. paid to the Crown Agents is perfectly outrageous. Of course I can understand the Foreign Office saying, "We are told that this is strictly according to rule. We do not know a rail from a chimney-pot, but we have to buy this. There are the Crown Agents for the Colonies. These gentlemen are accustomed to buy for the colonies, and they will buy for us on the same terms." The 1 per cent. is higher than they used to get from the colonies. It is a very high commission. I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware of this other fact. The three Crown Agents have accumulated a fund of £341,000. That is a proof that they charge more for the work than is required. I wish to know whether the right hon. Gentleman is going to pay this 1 per cent. when it is demonstrated to be more than the cost of the work. It has been shown that 1 per cent. is more than is necessary. We have not reached the end of this question by a great deal, and there is a vast amount of matter that will require to be probed to the bottom. It may, perhaps, be very desirable to know the exact circumstances under which this gentleman did retreat from his office of Crown Agent. We are paying far too much for buying the material, and the least the Government can do is to reduce the amount of the commission.
CAPTAIN SINCLAIR: I wish to add one word to the protest which has been made in regard to the management of this business by the Foreign Office. We have heard a great deal in this debate about the Foreign Office Committee, because that has been the executive committee charged by the Government with
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the carrying out of this work, but I am sure that no one wishes to say that the gentlemen forming that committee have been less capable of performing the duties entrusted to them than any other body in the service of the Crown would have been under similar circumstances. The quarrel is with the Government not only for having selected them for carrying out a duty for which, perhaps, they are not fitted, but having withdrawn them from work for which they were better qualified, and, still more, for having persisted in defending the present system which by their own admissions the Government have shown has failed so lamentably. The right hon. Gentleman has made two defences in regard to the management of this railway. The first was when the hon. Member for North Louth brought this matter forward, and the other we have listened to to-night. No one who heard the two defences could fail to be struck by the dissimilarity of attitude taken up on the two occasions. In the first case the right hon. Gentleman entirely admitted miscalculations in various important respects; he said the price of labour and of material had unexpectedly risen, and I am perfectly certain that if the right hon. Gentleman had given the Committee any indication that a different form of control or that more care would be exercised in the future, criticism on this side of the House would have been very largely disarmed. But this evening he has taken an entirely different line, and has defended all the sins of omission and commission which have been only too evident in the management of the railway up to the present, thereby making his case worse, and the more completely justifying our criticisms. We have had very little clear information as to the real position and work and emoluments of the Crown Agents, but I will not go into that now. With regard to the traffic and working-expenses and the question of the gauge, the defence of the right hon. Gentleman was exceedingly weak. As to the traffic and working expenses, surely it must be admitted not only that for the conveyance of stores which are sent up by the Government for the support of the labourers working on the railway has there been a large return, but also that there are a number of native traders who have gone up the railway, as is generally the case when large gangs of workmen are

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doing work of this kind, establishing themselves in little huts and shanties at the head of the line, and that the goods they ordered and which went up over the line have formed a very largo addition to the present traffic proceeds of the line which must cease when the railway is completed. However, both sides of the House are committed to the principle of constructing this railway, and possibly it may be too much to expect that the railway should pay even working expenses, far less any interest on the capital at present. The right hon. Gentleman referred to statistics of mortality in the working gangs on this railway, and he alluded to the statistics of mortality in some of our largo towns. It is entirely fallacious to compare for one moment the statistics of mortality among adult workmen, no matter where they may be engaged, with the statistics of mortality of a full population of men, women, and children. As to the gauge, the right hon. Gentleman ridiculed the criticism of my hon. friend when he pointed out the advisability of the gauge of one railway being the same as that of another, because, said he, there will be a lake between the two railways, and therefore you will have to break bulk. But the right hon. Gentleman surely forgot that it is only within the last few months that the alteration in the direction of the line was made which would take the line to the lake. I cannot conceive anything more likely to discourage the country from proceeding with enterprises of this kind than the conviction that such
enterprises when undertaken are not economically and efficiently managed. It is greatly to the interest not only of this side of the House, but also of the Government, that they should join in asserting the control of the House of Commons over expenditure of this kind. It may very probably be the case that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when preparing his Budget for next year, will look with regret at the additional £2,000,000 which have had to be laid out in the extension of this railway. I quite agree with the Under Secretary as to the doubt whether any contractors would ever have undertaken this work, and it is more than we can reasonably ask him, especially after the experience of the past, to fix any limit to the expenditure which may be necessary before this line is completed, thus laying himself open to attacks if his estimate is exceeded. I share his objection to anything of that kind, but I must say that the attitude he has adopted in this debate has not been an encouraging one to those of us who desire to sec economical and efficient management, while if anything is likely to shake the confidence of the country in such enterprises it is the conviction that the House of Commons no longer cares to exercise any control over these matters.
Question put.
The Committee divided:—Ayes, 147; Noes, 41. (Division List No. 123.)

AYES.

Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

Gedge, Sydney

Anson, Sir William Reynell

Charrington, Spencer

Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

Archdale, Edward Mervyn

Coghill, Douglas Harry

Godson, Sir Augustus F.

Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

Goldsworthy, Major-General

Balfour, Rt. Hn A. J. (Manch'r)

Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

Balfour, Rt. Hn Gerald W (Leeds)

Cook, Fred, Lucas (Lambeth)

Goschen, Rt. Hn G J(St George's)

Banbury, Frederick George

Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasg'w)

Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

Barry, Rt. Hn A H Smith-(Hunts)

Cox, Irwin E. Bainbridge

Goulding, Edward Alfred

Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H. (Brist'l)

Cubitt, Hon. Henry

Green, Walford D (Wednesbury)

Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

Curzon, Viscount

Grey, Sir Edward (Berwick)

Bethell, Commander

Denny, Colonel

Griffith, Ellis J.

Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord G.

Bill, Charles

Dorington, Sir John Edward

Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. Wm.

Blundell, Colonel Henry

Doughty, George

Hanson, Sir Reginald

Bond, Edward

Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

Hardy, Laurence

Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

Haslett, Sir James Horner

Brassey, Albert

Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edw.

Helder, Augustus

Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

Hornby, Sir William Henry

Butcher, John George

Finch, George H.

Houston, R. P.

Caldwell, James

Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

Howard, Joseph

Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

Fisher, William Hayes

Hutton, John (York, N.R.)

Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J.(Birm.)

Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Edw.

Chamberlain, J. Austen (W'rc'r)

Galloway, William Johnson

Johnston, William (Belfast)

Johnstone, Hey wood (Sussex)

Murray, Rt. Hn. A Graham (Bute)

Stanley, Edward, Jas. (Somerset)

Joicey, Sir James

Murray, Charles. I. (Coventry)

Stephens, Henry Charles

Kenyon, James

Nicholson, William Graham

Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'Taggart

Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

Nicol, Donald Ninian

Strachey, Edward

Keswick, William

O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

Kimber, Henry

Pease, Herbert Pike(D'rlington)

Talbot, Rt. Hon. J.G.(Ox. Unv.

Knowles, Lees

Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

Thornton, Percy M.

Lafone, Allied

Pilkington, R.(Lanes, Newton)

Tomlinson. Wm. Edw. Murray

Lawrence, Sir E During- (Com

Platt-Higgins, Frederick

Tuke, Sir John Batty

Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

Plunkett ,Rt. Hn. Horace Curzon

Warr, Augustus Frederick

Lawson, John Grant (Yorks.)

Powell, Sir Fran-is Sharp

Welby, Rt.-Col. A C E (Taunton)

Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

Pretyman, Ernest George

Welby, Sir Charles G.E.(Notts.)

Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

Purvis, Robert

Whiteley, H (Askton-under-L.)

Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverpool

Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

Rentoul, James Alexander

Willox, Sir John Archibald

Lowe, Francis William

Richards, Henry Charles

Wilson, John (Falkirk)

Lowles, John

Ritenie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R.(Bath

Loyd, Archie Kirkman

Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

Macdona, John dimming

Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

Wylie, Alexander

Marline, Sir John William

Boyds, Clement Molyneux

Wyndham, George

M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

Massey-Mainwaring, Hn. W.F.

Seely, Charles Hilton

Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)

Shaw-Stewart, M. H.(Renfrew)

Montagu, Hon.J. Scott (Hants.)

Sidebotham. J. W. (Cheshire)

TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

More, Robt. Jasper (Shropshire)

Sidebottom, William (Derbys.)

Sir William Walrond and

Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh.)

Smith, Abel H.(Christchurch)

Mr. Anstruther.

Morrell, George Herbert

Smith, Jas, Parker (Lanarks.)

Muntz, Philip A.

Smith, Hon. W. D.(Strand)

NOES.

Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

Kilbride, Denis

Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

Billson. Alfred

Labouchere, Henry

Runciman, Walter

Birrell, Augustine

Macaleese, Daniel

Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

Burns, John

M'Cartan, Michael

Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

Cawley, Frederick

M'Crae, George

Smith, Samuel (Flint)

Channing, Francis Allston

M'Ghee, Richard

Steadman, William Charles

Colville, John

Maddison, Fred.

Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

Dillon, John

Nussey, Thomas Williams

Tanner, Charles Kearns

Doogan, P. C.

O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

Trevelyan, Charles Philips

Evans, Saml. T. (Glamorgan)

Oldroyd, Mark

Wilson, Hn. J. (York, W. R.)

Field, William (Dublin)

Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

Woodhouse, Sir J.T (Hudders'd)

Goddard, Daniel Ford

Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles

Scale Perks, Robert William

TELLERS FOR THIS NOES—

Holland, William Henry

Price, Robert John

Captain Sinclair and Mr.

Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

Reekitt, Harold James

Brynmor Jones.

Bill read the third time, and passed.

Clause 2 agreed to.
Bill reported, without Amendment; to be read the third time upon Thursday.

NAVAL RESERVE (MOBILISATION) BILL.
As amended, considered.
MR. CALDWKLLsaid that power was sought under this Hill to adopt the principle which had been agreed to in the case of the Army lie-serves. It gave the Admiralty the same power of calling out only a portion of the Volunteer Reserves which the Queen in
146
Council might have called out. There was, however, a very great difference between the power in regard to the two services. In the case of the Army, if Parliament was not sitting it had to be called together to authorise the calling out of the men, but in the case of the Navy there was no such necessity. The fear was that the Admiralty might take powers to call out the whole of the Reserves, but say they were going to call out only, perhaps, 5,000, and then shortly afterwards they might go on calling them out until the whole number were up. Upon the assurance of the Admiralty, however, that that would not be done, he did not desire further to oppose the Bill.

POOH REMOVAL BILL.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
[Mr. J. W. LOWTHER, Cumberland, Penrith, in the Chair.]
MR. CALDWELLsaid that in the case of Scotland there was a dispensing power given to the Local Government Board of not insisting upon the deportation of a pauper, and the object of the clause he had put upon the Paper was to give the same power to the Local Government Board in England. His contention was that in dealing with the deportation of paupers the law should as far as possible be uniform throughout the Kingdom. He understood that the objection was that the Board had not the staff for the purpose of inquiring into these matters, but that was really no argument whatever. If the thing was right and proper in itself, the Chancellor of the Exchequer would not say one word against having a sufficient staff to carry out purposes sanctioned by Parliament.
THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. T. W. RUSSELL,)said there was no necessity for this power in the case of England. What the Bill proposed was that should an Irish person apply for relief in any union in England, and it was proved before a magistrate that the person had lived for five years in England, a status of irremovability should be conferred by that fact. As this was a very old question, which had been discussed for thirty or forty years, he hoped the Bill would be allowed to go through without opposition.
MR. CALDWELLpointed out that the same argument applied to Scotland as to England, and all he asked was that the same powers should be given in both cases. He did not wish to delay the Bill in any way. The Amendment was not put down in that spirit, but merely to show that the point was brought up
148
when the Bill was passing through Committee, and that the Government would not accept it.
MR. T. W. RUSSELLsaid the Local Government Board had carefully considered this matter, but did not think they could take upon themselves the responsibility involved.
Bill reported without Amendment; road the third time, and passed.

COUNTY SURVEYORS (IRELAND) BILL.
Considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Clause 1:—
Committee report; Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

PUBLIC HEALTH (IRELAND) BILL.
Read a second time, and committed for Thursday.
NEW BILL.
  SEPARATE ASSESSMENT OF LAND.
  Bill to provide for the Separate Assessment of Land, and to amend the Law relating to Parochial Assessments in England and Wales, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Billson, Mr. Burt, Sir Walter Foster, Mr. Lloyd-George, Mr. Fenwick, and Mr. Trevelyan.

  SEPARATE ASSESSMENT OF LAND BILL.
  "To provide for the Separate Assessment of Land, and to amend the Law relating to Parochial Assessments in England and Wales," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday, 30th May, and to be printed. [Bill 200.]
  Adjourned at a quarter after Twelve of the clock.

NEW PEER.
The Eight Honourable Sir Nathaniel Lindley, Knight, having been appointed a Lord of Appeal in Ordinary under the provisions of the Appellate Jurisdiction Act, 1876, with the dignity of a Baron for life, by the style and title of Baron Lindley, of East Carleton, in the county of Norfolk—Was (in the usual manner) introduced.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificates from the Examiners that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—
Gas Orders Confirmation (No. 1) [H. L.].
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 6) [H. L.].
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 8) [H. L.].
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 2).
Gas Order Confirmation (No. 2) [H.L.].
Education Board Provisional Order Confirmation (London) [H. L.].
And the Certificates that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have been complied with:—
Aberdeen Corporation Tramways.
Leo Conservancy.
Hamilton, Motherwell, and Wishaw Tramways.
Midland Railway.
And also the Certificates that the Standing Orders applicable to the following Bills have not been complied with:—
Crystal Palace Company [H.L.]—(Petition for additional Provision).
Costa Rica Railway Company, Limited —(Petition for Bill).
Cumberland County Council (Bridges).
The same were ordered to lie on the Table.

ROE'S PATENT.
Petition of John Pearce Roe, late of 150, Leadenhall Street, in the city of London, but now of 30, St. Mary Axe, in the said city, civil engineer, praying for leave to introduce a Bill for rendering valid certain letters patent granted to John Pearce Roe for an invention for improvements in apparatus for shipping or transferring coal and other materials; together with a copy of the proposed Bill

3
annexed thereto; read, and referred to the Examiners.

STANDING ORDERS COMMITTEE.
Report from, That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the petitions for additional provision in the following Bills:

Liverpool Overhead Railway [H. L.]

Salford Corporation [H. L.]

ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to the Committee on the Bills to insert the additional provisions.
That the Standing Orders not complied with in respect of the following Bills ought to be dispensed with, and leave given to introduce the Bills:—
Great Indian Peninsula Railway Company.
Bray Urban District Council.
Read, and agreed to.

CRYSTAL PALACE COMPANY Bills. [H.L.] (PETITION FOR ADDITIONAL PROVISION).
COSTA RICA RAILWAY COMPANY, LIMITED, BILL.(PETITION FOR BILL.).
CUMBERLAND COUNTY COUNCIL (BRIDGES) BILL.
Examiner's Certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Monday next.

NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
A witness ordered to attend the Select Committee.
SOUTH ESSEX WATER BOARD BILL [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the BH. L.; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
SOUTH ESSEX WATER BILL. [H.L.]
Report from the Select Committee, That it is not expedient to proceed further with the BH. L.; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
ASTON MANOR TRAMWAYS BILL. [H.L.]
Reported with Amendments.
SOUTH SHIELDS CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
The CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES informed the House that the opposition to the BILL. was withdrawn. The Orders made on the 26th February and on Friday last discharged, and Bill committed.
WIDNES AND RUNCORN BRIDGE BH. L..
Read 2a, and committed.
EXETER CORPORATION BILL.
Read 2a, and committed. The Committee to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

FALKIRK CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
CORK ELECTRIC TRAMWAYS BILL. [H. L.].
RHYMNEY RAILWAY BILL. [H. L.].
BREWERY AND COMMERCIAL INVESTMENT TRUST, LIMITED, BILL. [H.L,].
BRISTOL WATER BILL. [H. L.].
TAFF VALE RAILWAY BILL. [H. L.].
Read 3a, and passed, and sent to the Commons.

CENTRAL LONDON RAILWAY BH. L..
Brought from the Commons; read 1a; and referred to the Examiners.
RAILWAYS (IRELAND) AMALGAMATION BILL.S.
Message from the Commons that they have ordered that the Committee appointed by them to join with the Committee of this House to consider the Railways (Ireland) Amalgamation Bills do meet the Lords' Committee in Committee Room B on Friday next, at Two o'clock, as proposed by their Lordships.
DUBLIN CORPORATION BILL.
  CLONTARF URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL.
  Message from the Commons that they have ordered that the Committee appointed by them to join with the Committee of this House to consider the Dublin Corporation Bill. and the Clontarf Urban District Council Bill. do meet the Lords' Committee in Committee Room A on Thursday next, at two o'clock, as proposed by their Lordships.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons. Read la; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 74.)
  EDUCATION BOARD PROVISIONAL OKDERS CONFIRMATION (BRIGHTON AND PRESTON UNITED DISTRICTS, ETC.) BILL [H.L.]
  Committed to a Committee of the whole House.
  METROPOLITAN POLICE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

  NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY BILL [H.L.]
  NORTH EASTERN RAILWAY (STEAM VESSELS) BILL [H. L.].
  MANCHESTER CORPORATION TRAMWAYS BILL [H. L.].
  WITHINGTON URBAN DISTRICT COUNCIL BILL [H. L.].
  WORKINGTON RAILWAYS AND DOCKS BILL [H.L.].
  SALFORD CORPORATION BILL [H. L.].
  LIVERPOOL OVERHEAD RAILWAY BILL [H. L.].
  DUBLIN, WICKLOW, AND WEXFORD RAILWAY BILL [H. L.].
  Report from the Committee of Selection, That the Earl of Carlisle be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee on the said Bills in the place of the Lord Lawrence; road, and agreed to.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  TRADE REPORTS (ANNUAL SERIES).
  No. 2422. Argentine Republic (Rosario).
  No. 2423. United States (New York).

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  General Report by the Chief Inspector of the Southern Division of Scotland for the year 1899.
  COMMERCIAL NO. 1 (1900) (SUEZ CANAL).
  Returns of Shipping and Tonnage, 1897, 1898, 1899.

  INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION BOARD (IRELAND).
  Annual Report for the year 1899.
  Presented [by Command], and ordered to lie on the Table.

  LUNACY.
  Report to the Lord Chancellor of the number of visits made, patients seen, and miles travelled by the Visitors of Lunatics, pursuant to the Lunacy Act, 1890, between October 1st, 1899, and March 31st, 1900. Laid before the House [pursuant to Act], and ordered to lie on the Table.
PETITIONS.
  DISABLED SOLDIERS AND SAILORS.
  Petition for legislation to ensure adequate provision for, from National sources, of the Guardians of the Poor of the Union of Worksop; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Petitions for amendment of, of the Edinburgh Corporation, and the Berwickshire County Council; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
  MUNICIPAL TRADING.
  Message from the Commons that they have ordered that the Committee appointed by them to join with the Committee of this House to consider municipal trading do meet the Lords Committee in the Chairman of Committees' Committee Room on Thursday next, at Three o'clock, as proposed by their Lordships.
NEW BILL.
  SHOPS (EARLY CLOSING) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to provide for the earlier closing of shops—Was presented by the Lord Avebury; read 1a; to be printed; and to be read 2a on Tuesday, the 22nd instant. (No. 73.)

  THE CHUPRA CASE—SEPARATION OF THE JUDICIAL AND EXECUTIVE FUNCTIONS IN INDIA.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY: My Lords, I rise, in accordance with the

  7
  notice standing in my name on your Lordships' Paper, to call the attention of the House to an article in the Law Times of 13th January on the Indian Executive and the Judiciary; and to the evils of uniting judicial and executive functions, as exemplified in the Chupra case; and to the insufficient action of the Bengal Government, with respect to those that did well and those that did ill in that case; and to ask what compensation the Bengal Government has made or will be ordered to make Constable Narsingh. I will read the chief part of the article in the Law Times, which speaks for itself and leaves me but little to add. It is as follows—
  "In thus summarising the results of the scandalous incident, it is by way of securing attention to its grave bearing on magisterial administration in the Indian country districts under the present conditions of the much-mixed functions entrusted to European civilian officers. It would be impossible, in the space available, to give any complete narrative of the tangled outrages and illegalities committed. Mr. Pennell's judgment alone would occupy three of our pages; but readers may rest assured that all the essential facts are duly recorded; they having been set out in a Calcutta journal, the Amrita Bazar Patrika, without contradiction, though the demi-official journal of Allahabad has made some attempt to deprecate the severe censures passed on the actors in this cruel Dreyfus case in rural Bengal. Let us now squeeze the story into as bold and brief a form as possible. It began with Mr. J. C. Twidell, the (civilian) district magistrate, also revenue officer, giving orders to the police to induce the villagers to set about repairs of certain embankments and watercourses without pay, but by dint of ' natural persuasion. These orders were entrusted to Mr. Corbett, a very young assistant superintendent of police, who, with Mr. Simkins, the local engineer, who had charge of the tanks and waterways, went to the village of Fulmeria to ' persuade ' the ryots to do the cheap bit of public work. One of the first men they accosted for the purpose happened to be a constable, Narsingh by name, from another district, who was on sick leave. Forced labour in any shape has long been illegal in India; and though the district magistrate, Mr. Twidell, seemed to have forgotten or ignored this elementary fact, the village constable—whom they had ordered to fetch some fellows to do the work—was well aware of it. He made reply: 'Why should we help? We are free men,' also making objection for himself that as a Rajput it was against his caste to do earthwork. Thereupon the young policeman told him to go and get some low fellows to do it. Mr. Corbett, seeing that Narsingh was a constable, thought he would have authority with the villagers. On his explaining that he was not on duty, and belonged to quite another district, Mr. Corbett began to bully him fiercely, and threatened he would get him
  8
  dismissed, Mr. Simkins adding as an ultimatum, 'Will you go or not go?'
  "On this, Narsingh, the worm, turned again, and, as the two officers alleged, snapped his fingers at them, and said he did not care 'that' for their illegal orders. Then this 'boy' of a police superintendent seized Narsingh by the shoulders, kicked him behind, and told him to go. But the worm again turned, and approached, as Corbett asserted, in a menacing attitude, when Simkins hit him on the head with a rattan, and Corbett struck him three times on the face, knocking him down. Then Shaking, the engineer, who is a big man, literally sat upon the unlucky Narsingh, while both he and Corbett, with their rattan sticks, gave him a good hammering (Corbett's own confession), after which Narsingh was bundled oil to work, but after a few minutes' attempt at delving he was let off, for, as Corbett avowed in evidence, the hammered constable was looking sick! The villagers, duly impressed by this peculiar example of 'your boasted British jurisprudence' began to follow Simkins to their forced labour. It may be mentioned that though they had helplessly looked on whilst Narsingh was in chancery, a more plucky Chamar (outcast) had made at the beaters with his stave; but the engineer, equal to the occasion, seized the Chamar's stick, and with it gave him a crack on the head. Thus order, if not law, was restored to the village of Fulmeria.
  "Now it was time for legal proceedings to begin, as they did next day in a fashion worthy of Barataria. Narsingh, as we have seen, knew a little law, and it might be expected he would take out a summons for assault and battery. But before doing so, his bruises needed surgical aid, and with that object he presented himself at the Chupra Hospital with his two black eyes and other decorations. Surgeon-Captain Maddox took him in, of course, but did nothing for him other than surgically, sending word to Mr. Corbett that he had the erring constable at his disposal. Thereupon Corbett drove over to the hospital, arrested Narsingh, and took him to the house of his superior,' Mr. Bradley, the district superintendent of police. There he appears to have been bullied with threats of prosecution, which, it was suggested, he might be spared if he would resign his place as constable and go about his business. But Narsingh had still manliness left in him to refuse this tender mercy, so he was walked oft' to the Bungalow of the (Civilian) District Magistrate, Mr. Twidell, with whom the two European police officers consulted as to which sections of the Penal Code would serve for prosecution of the man whose crime—as the Sessions Judge later on remarked—seemed to have been ' the very serious one of having been assaulted by a European official.' However, the council of three found that Sections 253 and 186 I.P.C. might do to frame a charge founded on Corbett's report, and forthwith Mr. Twidell wrote out an 'order' directing prosecution before a deputy magistrate, Moulvy Zakir Hussein, one of his own subordinates. The gist of these charges (to which another was added in the course of the proceedings), as expressed by Mr. Deputy Moulvy in his finding, was ' an insult sufficiently capable of provoking (the young

  9
  officer Corbett) to commit a breach of the peace,' and, having found Narsingh ' guilty,' a sentence of ' two months rigorous imprisonment' was passed on him, thus affixing to the unhappy 'hammered' constable the stigma of a felon,
  "But before this predetermined result was reached there had been certain extra legal proceedings that must be mentioned, as illustrating how the wisest of Codes and the best rules of procedure may be rendered futile by personal neglect or daring violation thereof. On the first hearing Mr. Bradley, the District Superintendent of Police, not content with his previous bullying and private consultation with Mr. Twidell, the superior civilian magistrate, must needs plant himself on the Bench beside Deputy Moulvy, with whom 'he discussed the law and evidence' whilst the hearing was going on. After this he stepped across to Twidell's house, speedily followed by the trying magistrate with the ' record,' where they considered the course to be taken at the next hearing, the latter having previously consulted with Mr. Twidell in the train as they travelled to Chupra. Here it may be mentioned that when Mr. Deputy Moulvy, in the subsequent proceedings before Mr. ' Penuell, the Scissions Judge, was called to account for these private confabs in prevision of his finding and sentence, he naively expressed it that it was to avoid future troubles, for, as he further explained, ' sometimes when cases are disposed of, and (his superior) magistrates do not like it, they find fault, and so I settled it beforehand.' If we are to take this as an example of how in rural Bengal justice is sometimes administered, it is difficult to conceive anything more grotesque and scandalous; and as to Mr. Twidell's part in these Savoy opera proceedings in real life, he, when before the sessions judge, after much wriggling, was constrained to ' admit that it is difficult for him to say that we did not give Moulvy Zakir Hussein any hint as to how he was to decide the case.' It may be remarked here, in passing, that Mr. Twidell, the district magistrate, is a civilian of only about live years standing, while Mr. Deputy Moulvy has exercised magisterial functions for nearly thirty years; but as he is one of a class who can never rise above their subordinate position, it may he understood how that, in the language of the Sessions Judge, he is a mere servile tool in the hands of his (local) superiors,' a man without conscience, With no fear of God in his eyes.' Another instance of the shameless personal interference with the course of justice in the case may be traced to the circumstance that Mr. Twidell, when formally asked in the judge's court to proffer explanation on his part in the irregularities there disclosed, refused to give it, sheltering himself under the plea of advice from his superior, Mr. Bourdillon, Chief Commissioner of the Patna Division, who is a senior civilian officer close on the period for retirement. Yet this gentleman has so little regard for impartiality in judicial proceedings that he committed the impropriety of writing a demi-official letter to the Sessions Judge, urging that the evidence of the witnesses should be taken in camera.,
  "Two or three further circumstances must be mentioned in order to show how the case
  10
  was disposed of. It is doubtful whether these outrageous proceedings would have been formally brought to the cognisance of the Sessions Judge, had not the advocate, Mr. Jaganath Sahai. whom Narsingh had secured before the final hearing in the Deputy's Court, taken the 'unusual course'—which Mr. Pennell commended in the instance of himself swearing an affidavit ' reciting the story of these extra-judicial proceedings,' which comprised many grave irregularities besides those essential points we have selected. It was with much difficulty that Narsingh obtained bail after the first hearing; he then preferred charges against Messrs. Corbett and Sinkins of causing hurt, and of imposing unlawful compulsory labour. The same deputy magistrate heard the indictment in its usual form of a petition, but this was dismissed as 'utterly without ground … under Section 203 C.P.C.'
  "But later on the Sessions Judge, in the exercise of his 'revisional authority,' set aside Monlvy Zakir's dismissal order and directed a fresh inquiry to be made by his superior. In passing the order, Mr. Pennell directed that it should be dealt with by another district magistrate, Mr. Macpherson, seeing that Mr. Twidell himself was ' at the bottom of the dismissal by this deputy. Otherwise he should have bad to make it a direct reference to the Calcutta Higli Court.' So this is how the subsidiary case of Narsing v. Corbett and Sinkins was left when last mentioned.
  "It remains to be seen how the higher authorities will take notice or avoid taking notice of the congeries of scandals disclosed in the judgment recorded by the Sessions Judge of Chupra. The searching and comprehensive review of its flagitious magisterial muddle is worthy of the best judicial traditions of the Indian Civilian Bench, and so far affords ample vindication of the British Indian Codes, when faithfully administered. But Mr. Pennell, who had' the courage to do his obvious duty, has been dealt with penally by the executive authority of Bengal, of whom Sir John Woodburn, the present Lieutenant-Governor, is the bead. Will the Chief Justice of Calcutta, Sir Francis Maclean, sit by whilst an insidious side-blow is thus dealt at the impartial administration of justice within his province? Such evasion of duty, were it possible, would tend to weaken the fibres of the strongest cord that hinds together our Indian Empire.
  "Then there are the highest executive authorities, who are bound to see to it that such subordinate official conspiracies against the reign of law as are disclosed in the Chupra case shall not ever be possible; for we quite admit this is an exceptional instance of miscarriage in Indian judicial administration. Those executive authorities are_ the Legal Member of the Supreme Executive and the Governor-General in Council, Lord Curzon."
  This case does not require much comment, the article of the Law Times having supplied enough. From the precedents set in regard to inquiry as to military outrages, it may be expected that I shall be told, and that the House will be told, that these civilian outrages did not take

  11
  place. If so, the India Office will have to make it good by prosecuting the Law Times for libel, since its statements if not true are the most discrediting statements ever made of any administration. I regret that the editor of the Law Times, Mr. Crump, died about ten days ago. One of the chief objects in calling the attention of the House to this case is because of the light it casts upon the evils of uniting executive and judicial functions. When I brought this subject before the House in May, 1893, both the then Secretary of State for India (Lord Kimberley) and his predecessor (Viscount Cross) were fully conscious of the necessity of a reform to remedy these evils. At that time it was supposed that financial difficulties stood in the way of reform. Financial difficulties are more likely to increase than to diminish; but since then some Hindu gentlemen—in accord, I believe, with Sir Richard Garth, a former Chief Justice of Calcutta—have devised a scheme of re-distribution of officials and of official duties, which would have secured the object aimed at without any important additions to the expense of the administration. With regard to the notice as to the inadequate dealing with the case by the Bengal Government, the dismissal from the service would appear to be what would have been expected for Mr. Twidell, Mr. Bradley, Mr. Simkins, and Mr. Corbett. Mr. Bourdillon, who tried to influence the Sessions Judge, does not appear even to have been censured, but promoted to be Chief Secretary to the Bengal Government. He is near his retirement from the service, so cannot plead youthful inexperience; it would be adequate and just that the period for his retirement should be immediate. The too pliant deputy magistrate, Moulvy Zakir Hussein, should also retire upon his pension without delay. What compensation has been or will be made to the constable Narsingh for his ill-treatment, and what reward should be given him for upholding the credit of the Indian Government in respect of abolition of forced labour? How long is the Sessions Judge, Mr. Pennell, to be left in an unhealthy post, to which he was appointed shortly after pronouncing his judgment? The Law Times calls this appointment an insidious side-blow at the impartial administration of justice. The Secretary of the Bengal Government
  12
  denied that this appointment had been made on account of the judgment, but that it had been made before they had seen the judgment. A writer in India, under the signature of an "Englishman," says this is a quibble, and that they knew of the judgment though they might not have seen it. In any case, by this time everybody has seen and may have read the judgment. How is it, then, that the Sessions Judge, who has upheld the credit of the administration of British justice and law, has not been removed from Noakhaly or promoted, by the Bengal Government or by the Indian Government or by order of the Secretary of State for India? Although I have given notice to move for papers, I do not intend to do so. There ought to be two papers, one containing some explanation from the Bengal Government, and the other a despatch from the Secretary of State. M37 object in giving notice that I should move for papers was to secure the right of reply, but as the seat at the Table usually occupied by the Reading Clerk is vacant, and there is no one to supply what Lord Randolph Churchill used to call my "aural of the ears oral of the mouth deficiencies," I am perfectly at the mercy of my noble friend the Under Secretary. Whatever the noble Earl may say it will be impossible for me to reply to him to-night.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of ONSLOW): I understand that the noble Lord does not intend, to persevere in his motion for papers on this subject. Had he done so, I should have been quite prepared to lay upon the Table of the House the resolution which has been passed by the Government of India in this case, and which, I think, would more clearly set out the views of the Government of India and the local Government than I can in the few words which I shall address to your Lordships. It will be quite sufficient, perhaps, for me to say that this case is one which has attracted a great deal of attention in India, and it is one which has been brought to the notice of the Government of India, and upon which they have thought fit to animadvert in very severe terms. No doubt it is a matter for very great regret that this assault should have been committed upon Narsingh Singh, and that the punishment which was

  13
  awarded, although severe, was hardly adequate to the case. It is also unfortunate that the judge before whom the appeal was hoard should have expressed his opinion upon the case in terms not usually expected from one in a judicial position. The Lieutenant-Governor of Bengal expressed the opinion, in which the Government of India entirely concur, that serious notice of the conduct of these officers was necessary, and His Honour has issued the following orders —
  "Mr. Twidell will be barred from promotion to an officiating magistrate-collectorship for one year. Mr. Corbett, who has become entitled to confirmation as an assistant superintendent of police of the second grade on completely passing the departmental examinations, will not be confirmed for the same period. An expression of the Lieutenant-Governor's severe displeasure will be conveyed to Mr. Bradley, and Moulvy Zakir Hussein will also be admonished. The latter is an old officer who has hitherto borne a blameless reputation."
  With regard to Mr. Pennell's judgment, the High Court of Calcutta " is of opinion that certain passages in the judgment are expressed in terms which the judges cannot but regard as intemperate, and conspicuously wanting in that sense of dignity and self-restraint which ought to characterise judicial utterances," and an expression of the disapproval of the Court has been communicated to Mr. Penncll. The Governor General in Council adds that—
  "The punishment inflicted, if not adequate to the offence as it is regarded by the Governor General in Council, is at least substantial; and his Excellency in Council cannot but regard the lamentable occurrences which he has been discussing as in some degree due to the fact that there was no officer of age and experience present on the district staff whose more mature judgment might have prevented them, It is to be hoped that the public attention which has been called to the present incident, and the notice which the Government of India have been compelled to take of the matter, may prevent the recurrence of similar events in the future, and may be productive of good in vindicating that high standard to which it is essential that British administration in this country should steadily conform."
  I think from what I have said that it will be obvious to the noble Lord that the Government of India and the Secretary of State in England are both deeply sensible of the serious nature of this case, and that steps have been taken to prevent a recurrence of the incident. I may perhaps add, in reply to the question of the
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  noble Lord, whether any compensation will be made or ordered to be made to Constable Narsingh Singh, that that is scarcely in accordance with practice either in India or in this country, and that we have no information at the India Office that any such compensation is in contemplation.

  INDIAN FAMINE—ADVANCES TO HYOTS.
  LORD SANDHURST: My Lords, I beg to ask the Under Secretary for India whether it is intended that the advances to the Indian ryots suffering from famine mentioned by the Secretary of State for India in a speech reported in The Times of 10th May shall be by way of loan or gift. This question is a very direct one and admits of a very direct reply; but as I have just returned from the Bombay Presidency, where undoubtedly the famine is extremely bad, perhaps your Lordships will allow mo to give an explanation in a word or two as to the reasons which actuated me in interrogating the noble Earl. A few days ago, a number of friends of mine were so good as to give me a complimentary dinner on my return from Bombay, and in making a short speech I ventured to suggest, speaking for myself alone, that if the resources of charity were deemed insufficient possibly some grant might be made by either the Homo Government or the Government of India in aid of certain famine-stricken ryots. In the course of the evening Lord George Hamilton made a brief speech, in which he used these words—
  "There was, however, one portion of work which the charitable funds had done which he thought might be undertaken by Government if it became necessary to do so. A large portion of those funds in the past had been devoted to making advances to the ryot and the cultivator, and so had enabled him to buy seed and stock, that he might once more, when the famine was over, be set upon his legs. That was a duty which he thought the Government might legitimately undertake, and he had already been in communication with the Indian Government in order that they might, if necessary, supplement any deficiency which the contributions in this country might render necessary."
  As Lord George Hamilton expressed the idea that any funds to be granted might be granted in the same way as they were from charitable funds, I assumed that the funds so to be distributed were to be by way of gift and not by loan; but at that entertainment there were a number of

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  experienced administrators who considered that as the word "advances" was used the Secretary of State meant to imply that the assistance should be by loan and not by gift. I hope the noble Earl will be able to clear up the ambiguity on that score. If I may be allowed to say so—speaking, of course, for myself, after a most bitter experience of two famines in India—I sincerely trust that my assumption that the assistance is to be by gift may be correct. The present famine, following the famine of 1896–7, which was of considerable dimensions, found the Presidency of Bombay and certainly the Central Provinces and other parts of India in a position in which they had hardly begun to recover from the former calamity. The famine now upon India, which must continue for some time, is of unexampled severity, and embraces an area, certainly as regards the Presidency of Bombay, larger than any before so devastated. We are in this unfortunate position, that whereas in 1896–7 over £1,000,000 was subscribed to assist the Government in their beneficent work, on this occasion, as everyone knows, we have a tremendous competition for monetary aid which naturally absorbs all minds and not less naturally draws all charitable funds towards the relief of the families of those soldiers who are serving in South Africa. Therefore, although the Indian people are confronted with a calamity of an unprecedented nature, the vast wealth of charity which was poured from the Empire on previous occasions cannot, of course, now be expected; and I greatly fear, if the aid is to be by loan, and punctual repayment is looked for, that those who are most in want of the assistance will be unable to avail themselves of it, while those who are better off, but only a shade less poor, will find their existing embarrassments increase in the future. There is one particular direction in which I would venture to suggest that this assistance might be given—namely, towards the provision of cattle when the famine has ceased. As your Lordships are aware, thousands of cattle have perished, and these useful animals, as your Lordships also know, are used for the ploughing and tilling of the land, and provide the means of transport beyond the railways. It would indeed be difficult, I think, to call your Lordship's attention too urgently to
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  this cattle question. The Government of Bombay—the only one I venture to speak for—have done all they reasonably could to save cattle by establishing camps, buying and supplying them with quantities of fodder, and also by railing large numbers of approved cattle to certain places in the forest where fodder was known to exist, and where water was to be found. But even if the Government of Bombay realise their most sanguine expectations they can only hope to save a fraction of the cattle. If it is true that for the moment the limits of charity have been reached, I venture respectfully to think that I have made out a case for gift and not for loan. Further than that, I see that my opinion is endorsed in a telegram from Sir Francis Maclean, Chief Justice of Calcutta, and Chairman of the Famine Belief Committee, who, in acknowledging in last Saturday's Times a remittance from the Lord Mayor of London, calls attention to the fact that this is the moment when money is most urgently required in order to assist the peasantry with seed and cattle for ploughing in view of the coming monsoons. Before I formally put the question, may I be allowed to express my extreme consciousness of the unvarying encouragement and the consistent courtesy with which I have been treated by the noble Earl opposite and by his chief, and until lately my chief, the Secretary of State for India, under circumstances which I think most people admit to have been difficult? The Secretary of State has been uniformly kind and considerate, and it has been a great pleasure to serve under him. Taking advantage of the latitude of your Lordships' House, I venture also to express my appreciation of the services of the innumerable officers by whom the Government and the people of India are being served in this time of exceptional strain and anxiety. I find it difficult, having been mixed up with them in circumstances which fall more heavily on the district officers than they do upon anyone else, to find adequate terms in which to express my admiration of their self-denial, their devotion to duty, and the zeal and courage with which they have discharged that duty. I have seen it frequently stated that sympathy does, not exist between the district officers and those over whom it is their duty to rule; but, after a most critical observation, I

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  am able to assure your Lordships that that statement is entirely without foundation. Whilst we naturally look for patience from civilians brought up in the country and trained to deal with civil populations, young soldiers are hardly the men you expect would patiently carry out either famine or plague administration; but. I can assure your Lordships that these young soldiers, of whom I had a largo number under me, have exceeded my utmost expectations. Whether you put them down in the crowded city of Bombay, with a great variety of communities to look after, and possibly on that account one of the most difficult cities in the world, or whether you place them in the more rural districts, you find they gain the confidence of the people, and by their tactfulness and resource are able to get them to do what they want. I cannot help thinking that the way in which relief has been given will be the means of bringing Europeans and natives closer together than they have been for many a year, and I am sure your Lordships will all have observed with admiration the extreme patience—I think I may call it the heroic fortitude—of the various peoples in India in the face of calamities which I think it is not too much to say are without parallel. I beg to ask the question standing in my name.
  THE EARL OF ONSLOW: I must, in the first place, acknowledge the manner in which the noble Lord has expressed his gratitude to the Secretary of State for the sympathy he accorded to him in the very troublous times which fell upon the Presidency of Bombay during the noble Lord's administration. I think it would have been impossible for anyone occupying the position of Secretary of State in this country not to have sympathised with the noble Lord in the extremely difficult task which fell to his lot while he was Governor of Bombay, or with the noble Earl who sits beside him (the Earl of Elgin), who was Viceroy of India at the time of the approach of the famine, which the noble Lord justly said is without precedent in the history of this generation. The Government of India has undertaken the duty of giving work, and a wage, to every man who applies for it without any inquiry, provided he states that he is in a destitute condition, and
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  of giving gratuitous relief to distressed people who for any reason are unable to work. Beyond that, in the circumstances, I do not think any Government is entitled to go. But there are certain things which charitable funds may stop in and do in excess of the main duty of the Government, which is to save life from starvation. These things have been very clearly set out by Lord Elgin, and they are four in number. First of all, there are sums of money provided from charitable sources which might be applied to giving some additional comforts to weaker members of the community, such as medicines; secondly, to giving relief to those who, from reasons of caste or prejudice, might be unwilling to present themselves at the relief works; thirdly, in taking charge of orphans, who have been deprived of their parents by death from famine; and lastly, and most important of all, of setting on their legs again those who have been supported on relief works, in order that on the conclusion of the famine they might resume their normal occupations, agricultural and other. It was to that that the noble Lord more particularly directed his remarks, and he asked whether this advance was to be in the form of a loan or a gift. My answer to that is, it is both or either. That is to say the Government of India intend to provide a very large sum of money to supplement what may be available from charitable funds. The funds will be applied for supplying the necessary seeds, stock, etc., to the ryots in the famine districts for carrying on their operations. The scheme under which these advances —I think advances, after all, is the right word to use—are to be made is not yet completely settled. The Viceroy is in communication with the local Governments and will advise the Secretary of State as to the final shape which the policy should take. But this I can say— there will be no interest charged upon these advances; and, under any circumstances, they will not be repayable for at least a year, and repayment will probably be spread over a considerable time. The utmost latitude will be reserved to the Indian Government to remit, altogether or in part, repayment of the advances made to the ryots; and they will take into consideration the circumstances of each case. It is hoped that such measures will avoid, on the one

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  hand, any tendency to pauperisation by too lavish a grant of free gifts, and, on the other hand, the infliction of any hardship in reference to repayment. The Government of India trust that they will be able by these means to set on their legs again the great majority of those who are now suffering from a famine such as has never been known before in India, and who, no doubt, without such assistance would find it difficult to resume their normal occupations. It is also hoped that, within a reasonable time after the famine has come to an end, the land revenue of the Government will be restored.
  THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Viscount CROSS): I should like to be allowed to thank the noble Lord who has spoken from the other side for the testimony which he has borne to the action both of the civil and military officers under circumstances of very great trial and difficulty. I am quite sure that his testimony will give the greatest satisfaction both in this country and in India.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Five of the clock, till Tomorrow, half-past Ten of the clock.