Sitting of 21 March 1899

Preamble
Mr. SPEAKER took the Chair at Three of the clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PEIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER 63 COMPLIED WITH.
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, Standing Order No. 63 has been complied with, viz:—
  Kensington and Not ting Hill Electric Lighting Bill.
  Ordered. That the Bill be read a second time.

  PRIVATE BILLS (PETITION FOR ADDITIONAL PROVISION) (STANDING ORDERS NOT COMPLIED WITH).
  Mr. SPEAKER Mr. SPEAKER laid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the Petition for additional Provision in the following Bill, the Standing Orders have not been complied with, viz:—
  London and North Western Railway (Additional Powers) Bill.
  Ordered, That the Report be referred to the Select Committee on Standing Orders.

  CROWBOROUGH DISTRICT WATER BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed.
  FISHGUARD WATER AND GAS BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed.
  CATHCARTS' DIVORCE BILL [LORDS].
  Read a second time, and committed.
  BEXHILL AND ROTHERFIELD RAILWAY BILL (BY ORDER).
  Read a second time, and committed.

  EAST LONDON WATER BILL.
  (By Order.) Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out the word ' now,' and at the end of the Question to add the words ' upon this day six months."—(Mr. Stuart.)
  MR. STUART: I paused from rising for the moment in the hope that someone in charge of the Bill would give us the reasons for bringing it on just now, and the reasons also for the particular form of the Bill. I would point out that it affects a. million and a, half of money for impounding the waters of the Lea and supplying them to the inhabitants of London at some distant date when the construction of the reservoirs will be accomplished. It is not one of those Bills that supply the immediate and urgent necessities of London; that was dealt with by the Government, and this Bill does not touch that point. There are other Bills before us to-day that do, but this Bill does not touch what I may call the urgent question. There are some omissions in the Bill—for instance, the sinking fund is not introduced into the Bill. So far as I know, there is no Bill affecting the raising of capital for any London water company for many years that has passed this House without the introduction of a sinking fund, the object of that sinking fund being to make the public, the water consumers of London, and the ratepayers in some way sharers in the proceeds of the capital. There were two Bills of the East London Company—in 1894 and 1897 respectively—which two Bills provided reservoirs for impounding the water of

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  the Lea precisely as this has done, and in both of those, though introduced, if I remember rightly, without a sinking fund clause, the Committee of the House of Commons, and the Committees, in fact, of both Houses, introduced and maintained a sinking fund clause. The companies have sometimes found fault with the London County Council for expending money in appearing upon their Bills, but surely an omission from a Bill like this necessitates the spending of money under any circumstances in connection with this Bill. I hoped and imagined that some explanation at least would have been given from the other side as to the omission of the sinking fund clause. Then there is another clause which has been recently introduced of late in this House, and which was really introduced as arising from the suggestion of the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board in 1896. That clause is one which states that the concessions thus granted to the company shall not be taken to increase the value of that company's undertaking in case of purchase within a certain number of years. That clause is omitted from this Bill. I am told that that clause has been introduced into recent Bills which the companies have brought forward; I think it really was introduced to carry out a suggestion, not exactly in that form, but yet an imprimatur suggestion, made in 1896, by the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board. There are these two clauses omitted from the Bill, and I hoped, as I said, to have heard some explanation as to why they are omitted. Then there is another point in respect to this Bill which I wish to bring before the House. It is a Bill for the future water supply of London, and it is a Bill for gathering that supply from the river Lea, in connection with large reservoirs. Now, I venture to think that the Lea is not a satisfactory source from which to secure move water for London. It was only the other day that we had occasion to refer in this House to the constitution of the Conservancy Board of the river Lea, and largely because of the enormous draws of water from the Lea that there are at the present moment, and greater draws of water from the river Lea will have to be taken before we can serve the increasing needs of
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  East London in the manner which this Bill indicates. It has been in evidence before the Royal Commission, in evidence given by Sir Alexander Binnie, Mr. Baldwin Latham, and others, that, in order to supply water adequately all the year round, you will require no less than 6,000 million gallons of storage for the water of the river Lea, and that even that apparently would be insufficient. Now, there has been a good deal said about the deficiency of last year being, as it was, certainly an abnormal one, but it is not nearly so abnormal as at first sight you would suppose. I hold in my hand one of the most recently issued Reports of the present Royal Commission—not Reports, but Notes of Evidence, of the present Royal Commission—and I see that the flow of the river Lea has been continuously diminishing. Here I have the flow given in millions of gallons over King's Weir for 20 years—at least, for 18 years—and in whatever way you group those years (I am merely quoting from the Paper placed before the Royal Commission) you find that the total flow of the river Lea has been very greatly diminished. If you compare the last five of those years with the first five of those years you find that the decrease in the flow of the Lea has been 15 per cent. There has been during that period a certain decrease of the rainfall, but it has only been 10 per cent., and the winter rainfall has hardly decreased at all.
  MR. WHITMORE: Will the honourable Gentleman say by whom the evidence was given?
  MR. STUART: These tables were given by Mr. Baldwin Latham, who was the last witness examined. And there is another check upon that, that the springs—these natural springs from which the water is got—namely, the Chadwell Springs, have been decreasing in nearly the same ratio, so that the produce of those wells and of the river Lea is distinctly diminishing. Now, I do not know whether the honourable Gentleman who asked me the Question means to dispute the figures, but, whether or not, it is certainly undoubted that that is the main tenour of those figures, which I think he will admit to be true, and that is also clear from the

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  fact that the New River Company, before the Committee on which I sat in 1896, were obliged to admit that, while a certain amount of water could be got from their wells, that amount was deficient now by 10 million gallons.
  *SIR F. DIXON-HARTLANP: A day?
  MR. STUART: Yes, a day. In other words, the whole evidence before Lord Balfour of Burleigh's Committee requires to be reconsidered, and, indeed, has been very much under reconsideration. But I point out that to show that this is a very doubtful source of supply from which to secure the future increase of the London water supply for six, eight, or ten years hence, as this Bill intends and purposes to do. You have the Lea river, with a large population on its hands, you have the sources of supply diminishing, and you have enormous reservoirs, and the extensions of those reservoirs. Now, I will venture to tell the House my opinion on this Bill in the manner that I have indicated. It is because the County Council, whom I have the honour of speaking for, and I, believe that a far better source of supply is to be found than in the Thames and the Lea, and that a far better source is to be found in going to Wales. I will not venture to anticipate any argument that I may raise at a later period this afternoon upon the Welsh Bill; but I will only say this: that you have in this East London Bill one of the proposed means of meeting the increase of supply necessary a number of years hence. I ask the House to remember that this is not an urgent question—it is a question of increasing the future supply. You have this Bill giving one means of meeting that—a means which, as I have ventured to show, is at least somewhat doubtful. On the other hand, you have the Welsh scheme of the County Council, and that is undoubtedly a pure supply and abundant in quantity. It will be for me to point that out at a later stage to-day. but the two Bills are brought in. one by the authority for the moment supplying water, and the other by the London County Council, which, under Sir Matthew White Ridley's Report of 1891, was instructed to make full inquiries into the condition of the London water supply, and to bring forward a Measure embodying what should be done.
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  We bring forward this Measure, which we shall come to at a later stage, carrying out our duty as an authority so constituted. But what I want to point out is this, that, while I shall move that this East London Water Bill be read this day six months before I sit down, in order to obtain from the honourable Gentlemen opposite some light upon their position, and some answer to the question I am going to put, I am not appearing here as opposing this Bill on Second Reading, because I want to have a competent Committee upstairs to consider not only this, but all the opportunities of getting water for London. It may be said that the Welsh scheme is in the air, but I want to point out (and I will not allude to the Welsh Bill except in relation to this Bill that I am now really dealing with) that the two things are perfectly on the same footing. The East London Company asks to bring water here in this way, and it will have to hand over that water to the future water authority for London. On behalf of the London County Council, we take the same attitude about the Welsh Bill; and what we are anxious to secure is the opportunity of obtaining for London a better supply of water. I want to ask the honourable Gentlemen opposite, Are they going to stand in the way of this Committee considering all the means of London getting water? Are they going to prevent this Committee considering not only their own scheme, but also considering the Welsh scheme? There are two separate means of getting water for the future supply of the East End and for any part of London, and they are not compatible with one another, so that we shall prejudge the whole question if we decide on one of these means before they go to a Committee. It would be perfectly different if the two Bills were not now before the House. The two Bills are before the House, and neither of them need to wait for the Report of the Royal Commission. And the reason neither of them need wait for the Report of the Royal Commission is this: the Royal Commission has not been asked to report on this question. It is not in its reference to report on the place from which the future supply of water is to be got. It is true that it has taken incidentally, in order to see the cost, a considerable amount of evidence upon that

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  matter, and that evidence can now be placed before the Committee to which these Bills are referred. I think that Commission's evidence is complete; and I for one shall have no objection that the evidence before that Commission should go before the Committee to which both these Bills should be referred. I therefore must make an appeal to honourable Gentlemen opposite to act by me as I am endeavouring to act by them, and to say: Let us send these two Bills—without any committal of approval on either part—to a Committee, let us place them before the Committee, and let us be able to place the whole facts of the case before the Committee, which we are quite capable of doing. This has nothing to do with the question of purchase, or who should be the future water authority for London. Are they going to say that they are going to stand by only one method of solution to the future water supply when there are two before the House? With these remarks I move that the Bill be read this day six months.
  MR. LOUGH (Islington, W.): I beg to second the Amendment.
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: I have no intention of not answering the remarks as to the object of the Bill. As to the future supply of water to London from Wales, I must decline to enter into a discussion. The object of the Bill is a very simple one. It is true that it concerns a. very large sum of money: but, what is more important, I believe it will place the company of which I am chairman in a position to provide the East End of London with water even during a drought. The object of the Bill, really and shortly, is to provide the company against falling short in future if a recurrence of drought should take place. In order to provide for that object we are asking leave to acquire land upon which to construct two large reservoirs, with the incidental works. These are to complete an instalment of the water scheme of reservoirs laid before Lord Balfour's Commission, and authorised in 1894 and 1897, and, but for the exceptional drought of 1898, I am bound to believe there would not have been any urgency for these reservoirs: but, in view of
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  what we suffered last year, I maintain that this Bill is absolutely urgent and necessary, and I press for its Second Heading in order that it may go before a Committer These two reservoirs will hold 5,000 millions of gallons of water—additional storage capacity—and will cover an area of 462 and 384 acres respectively, and these reservoirs and kindred works will cost us about one million of money. The company also ask power to create debenture stock for l½ millions. Our engineer maintains that the erection of these reservoirs is absolutely necessary, and but for that we should not have wished to create that large amount of additional stock. We believe, however, that the scheme cannot be postponed; and we also say that it has been sanctioned by a Royal Commission. To wait until the water question is finally settled would be to expose the East End of London to the dangers of another drought. My opponents find fault that we have failed in the past, and yet when these Bills are introduced to provide against these failures in the future, they proceed to oppose them. The honourable Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Stuart) stated his case the other night, making several strong points against the East London Company. I was unable to answer him at the time, but the main point which I now wish to keep to is the urgency of the Bill. If the House rejects the Second Reading, it must take the responsibility, and if any future scarcity of water does arise which might have been remedied by the passing of this Bill, on the House must rest the responsibility, and not on me. With regard to the quality of the River Lea, I may assure the honourable Member that the vintage of 1898 was magnificent, and that the water of the East London Company left nothing to be desired, and it came next to the standard of the New River Company, which I confess is high. That being the case, I ask the honourable Member if he is placing the London County Council in a good position, even from his point of view? I was perfectly aware when I took over the chairmanship of this company that my position would not be a bed of roses; but I may assure the House that my one object, in conjunction with my Board and ad-

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  visers, is to prevent any recurrence of past troubles. We believe by these Measures which we now place before the House, that scarcity of water will in the future be prevented. We believe that the wells of the Lea are increasing, and did commence to increase, oddly enough, immediately after the drought. I acknowledge with gratitude the fair way in which the honourable Member placed his views before the Committee. Without doubt, should the House reject the Bill, it will mean a very serious thing indeed for the East End. It will shift the responsibility from my shoulders and place it on those who oppose the Measure.
  MR. PICKERSGILL (Bethnal Green, S.W.): The Bill has. been urged forward in consequence of last year's experience—
  COLONEL LOCKWOOD: I said it was an instalment of the system of reservoirs.
  MR. PICKERSGILL: The honourable and gallant Member said the Bill was brought forward in consequence of last year's experiences, and that it was intended to provide against similar failure in the future to that which East London suffered from last year. The single point I rise to make is this—the honourable and gallant Member says that if the company is provided with these new reservoirs they will be able to store water to meet such an emergency as arose last year. But, as a matter of fact, if the company had had not these reservoirs alone, but any amount of storage accommodation last year, they would not have met the deficiency. If they had had every particle of water that flowed over the Teddington Weir, they would still have been short of their supply by 2,000 million gallons. Under these circumstances, the very basis upon which the honourable and gallant Gentleman rested this Bill seems to fall to the ground. I quite admit that this is a proper matter for the Committee to consider. The honourable and gallant Member has even no reply to the Question of the honourable Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Stuart), and we have a right to ask that if the Second Reading of this Bill is assented to, honourable Gentlemen on the other side of the
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  House shall agree that the London County Council Bill, which also provides an alternative method of supplying water for London, shall be referred to the Committee, too.
  MR. SINCLAIR: I have heard the honourable and gallant Member's reference to the proposed increased storage, and I trust the hopes he has expressed will be realised to the utmost. I must, however, point out that the mains of the East London Water Company are scarcely fitted to carry the supply through a thickly populated district. In East Ham, at any rate, it is essential that the mains should be good. In a case where the population has increased from 5,000 to 80,000 the same mains cannot be expected to do service. There are other points in the Bill that I take exception to. It was said that, in a great measure, the famine which occurred and the depression which occurred was due to the fact that the consumers had done away with their cisterns. That is not quite the fact. The cisterns had to be done away with because the local authorities insisted on their being done away with. And although it has been urged by the Board of Trade that new cisterns could be introduced, and that they would not be detrimental to the consumers, yet I would say that the expenditure of buying these cisterns would fall in a large measure upon a class of people who could not afford to pay for them. Then, I think if these jars supplied by the East London Water Company had not been supplied it might have been better for the consumers at large. Now, there is another matter which I think the House should take cognisance of. At Leyton, I believe, the authorities there manage the whole of their sewage evaporation of every drop of water consumed, and it appears that in normal times the amount of water they evaporate is 2,800,000 gallons per day. During the drought they only evaporated about 900,000 gallons a day, which shows that about one-third of the normal amount was evaporated. Taking the amount which it is supposed the consumer requires at 24 gallons per head per day, it would show that the consumer in this instance only had eight gallons per day, and that they lived on that small total amount. If you deduct the

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  amount consumed for manufacturing purposes, you will find that the eight gallons per day was very much diminished; consequently the eight gallons cannot be held to be an adequate supply in the East London districts. Now, there is another remark I have to make —I do not want to weary the House on this matter, but what I wish to press upon the House is that the East London Water Company at the present moment have bad mains, and that they are not remedied by this Bill. Now, Sir, I wish to point out also a remark which took place at the meeting of the East London Water Company, in which it was said that a large amount of water was wasted by the consumers. The words the chairman was supposed to have used were these—
  "That there is ample proof of a great deal of the quantity supplied to the consumer during the shortened hours was wasted partly by the tenants' neglect, and partly from a desire to serve out the company."
  If the company had to resort to such an excuse, it only showed how bad their case must be. But if that is so, I see nothing in the Government Bill by which the people who waste the water in times of drought could be prosecuted. I think anybody watering their gardens, or wilfully leaving their taps on, and so forth, in times of drought, should by some means or other be punished for their careless action. In conclusion, all I have to say is that I in no way desire to see the London County Council, or any other body, take up this enterprise. I think it is absolutely obligatory on this House to say that concessions granted should be maintained to the advantage of the public. Lastly, I think it is a question of supply to the public of an adequate quantity of water first, and that the payment of dividends should be the last consideration; and that if the dividend paid by the East London Water Company had been lessened and the sum devoted to supplying these cisterns, which they think necessary, instead of to supplying jars, which were utterly useless to the conumers at large, the poorer classes would have been the better off.
  MR. BUXTON: Mr. Speaker, I want to say a few words about the position as we regard it from this side of the House. I
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  think my honourable Friend the Member for the Epping Division (Colonel Lockwood) has entirely misunderstood the view taken by my honourable Friend sitting behind me. We do not intend to divide against the Second Reading of this Bill, because I recognise that it is very likely that this expenditure by the East London Water Company may be necessary in order to prevent further water famines. The honourable Gentleman said there was no question of urgency; therefore there was no question of the Bill at the present time. I think he has forgotten the Bill introduced by the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, which was intended to provide against any likelihood of urgency during the next few years. If my honourable Friend will read the evidence before the Royal Commission, of Mr. Brian, the engineer to the East London Water Company, he will find that ho admitted that this system of connection would enable them to carry on without any fear of water famine, for, at all events, two or three years to come. Therefore, there is no immediate urgency in regard to this House. I fully recognise that it may be right and proper these proposals should be passed in order that they may be in a position to provide for their customers in future years. What we want to impress upon the House is this: as my honourable Friend behind me pointed out to the House, we have before us two alternative proposals for the supply of water—
  SEVERAL HONOURABLE MEMBERS: We have no alternative proposals.
  MR. BUXTON: There are at the present moment before the House two or three Bills dealing with the London water supply, and they are dealing with the question of the future supply. The point of view we take in regard to this matter is that we do not desire to stand in the way of any proposal made by which we may have an increased and improved supply of water. We contend that these proposals made by a responsible body like the London County Council, as well as those made by the water companies, ought to go before the same Committee, so that the question may be dealt with, not piecemeal, but as a whole. The right honourable Gentleman the President of the

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  Local Government Board has himself declined to accept proposals in regard to the water question, because he said it prejudiced action subsequently to be taken by the Government when the Royal Commission reported. The Bill involves an expenditure of 1½ millions, but the other Bills, with an expenditure of 4½ millions, did prejudice the question of the future water supply. But, while we do not desire to commit the House at this stage to any definite approval of the system of bringing an alternative supply from Wales rather than from the Lea and the Thames, we do think that if the future is to be prejudiced by this large expenditure on the part of the East London Company, the alternative scheme ought to be placed in the hands of the same Committee. What I want to ask the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board is, whether he really intends to take up this position, that, while he will do nothing himself or allow the County Council to do something, he will allow the water companies to prejudice the question of future supply. That is the position which my honourable Friend the Member for Epping (Colonel Lockwood) takes up. I do not wish to prejudice the case or to enter into any inconvenient matter by saying anything in derogation of the East London Water Company. We are quite prepared to allow the company to go to an expenditure to put their mains in a proper condition with a view-to, if possible, prevent future water famines. I think everybody admits that some increase in the supply will be necessary before long, and the only alternative is our taking the water from the Lea and the Thames, or going to Wales. It is on that point that I would appeal to the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board for justice in the consideration of these Bills.
  MR. H. S. SAMUEL: Mr. Speaker, I must confess to very much surprise at the changed attitude of honourable Members opposite on this question since the Debates in 1803 and 1894. It seems to me that the East London Members are far more concerned, if I may say so, with the immediate supply of water in the East of London rather than
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  in the future supply. I disagree in. this case, therefore, with the honourable Member for Poplar. I must confess it is a difficult matter for me to vote for this Bill, though I intend to do so, for the simple reason I think we East London Members have some grave accusations to make against the East London Mater Company. I cannot help thinking that if the company charge the consumers large sums of money for the water they do not receive I am entitled to bring that accusation against them. On the other hand, we have considered what axe the absolute needs of East London. In 1893 and 1894 honourable Members took upon themselves the responsibility of depriving us of a water inquiry. I notice they are not so ready to do so now. No East London man dare, considering the interest of his constituency, go into the Lobby against the Second Reading of this Bill. An honourable Member has told us that it is absolutely necessary for the supply of water to the East of London that the company should have power to construct these reservoirs. With all due deference to the honourable Gentleman, I think the chairman of the company has greater knowledge of the needs and the water necessities of the company than honourable Gentlemen who have addressed this House this afternoon. I prefer to get the bird in hand offered to us by the East London Water Company rather than the birds in the bush offered to us by the London County Council Hill. Therefore, in the interests of East London, I shall register my vote in favour of the Second Reading of this Bill.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. H. CHAPLIN,): I am very glad indeed to hear from honourable Members on that side of the House that they do not propose to oppose the Second Reading of this Bill. After the experiences of 189G and 1894 they would be talking a very grave responsibility upon themselves had they elected to adopt that course. I have been asked, while I am considering this Bill, not to forget the Bill for bringing water from Wales, which we are to discuss directly, and the honourable Members hold, I understand, that that Bill

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  will in no wise prejudice any of the questions affecting the future water supply of London. My position is this, that I am waiting, and I shall listen with the greatest interest to what honourable Members have to say with regard to the Welsh Bill. But, pending that, I must reserve my opinion with regard to this Bill now before the House, and which itself also may prejudice the future of these questions quite as much as the Bill for bringing water from Wales. I am asked to put before the House some information bearing directly upon the question, and which is of great interest. My honourable Friend the honourable Baronet the Member for Gloucestershire (Sir John Edward Dorington), who is also a member of the Royal Commission, sitting this afternoon, asked me to say on his behalf, as expressing the opinion of the Commission—as he was unable to say it himself—that they have considered this Bill which we are discussing at this moment, and they are of opinion that that Bill and its provisions, being indeed as a matter of security for the water supply of the inhabitants, would not in their judgment or opinion prejudice in any way questions before the Commission. I thought it only right that I should say so. I am very glad that honourable Members are not going to oppose the Second Beading.
  MR. BICKERSTETH HUDSON: I can only say that, as a matter of fact, the stream which in my boyhood was full of water dries up more and more, and we wish to try and impress upon the Committee upstairs that they should not allow further wells to be sunk; if they do, we shall be absolutely dry of water in Hertfordshire.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Bill read a second time.
  Motion made and Question proposed—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee to whom the East London Water Bill is referred, having regard to the Resolution of this House of 12th March 1896, they do insert such provisions in the Bill as will insure the acquisition by the local authority of a suitable area of open space in substitution for the common rights proposed to be extinguished under the Rill, the extent and situation of such area of open space to be determined by the Committee."—(Mr. Paulton.)
  *MR. PAULTON: In moving the Instruction which stands in my name, I think I need only say that it is identical with the Instruction which I moved, and which was accepted unanimously, in February 1897, on a similar Bill by the East London Water Company. The object is simply this, to maintain what is now, happily, the settled policy of Parliament with regard to open spaces, and provide that where a public company takes land over which common rights exist, they should give a suitable area of open space to the local authority in substitution. This, I am glad to say, is accepted by the promoters, and I desire to express my satisfaction at the fair and open way they have met my views. I therefore beg to move.
  Motion agreed to.

  EAST LONDON WATER (TEMPORARY SUPPLY) BILL (BY ORDER).
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That this Bill be read a second time."
  MR. STUART: I only wish to know what is the attitude of the Local Government Board with respect to this Bill. This Bill only covers the same ground as is covered by the Bill of the right honourable Gentleman, with one exception, as far as I can see. The right honourable Gentleman told us that this Bill gives no additional powers for taking water from the Thames, and this Bill does. It says in clause 4 that they shall have power to use; to supply a larger quantity of water than the said company are now authorised to take, and the right honourable Gentleman said that was not in his Bill, and I should like to know what attitude he takes, and whether this Bill is going to the same Committee as the other Bills which are dealt with to-day.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD: No, Sir; the Bill will not go to the same

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  Committee as the Government Bill. That is a Committee already appointed. It is practically true that much the same ground is covered by these two Bills, but in some respects the Bill which we are now discussing goes beyond the Government Bill—that is to say, taking additional supplies of water from the Thames. What I propose to do is to agree to this Bill being read a second time and going to a Committee, and I apprehend that when the Government Bill has passed it will be a matter for consideration as to what clauses are necessary.
  MR. BUXTON: Do I understand that we have two Bills dealing with the same points, and that the only difference is whether water shall be allowed to be taken from the Thames? Do I understand that the Government are allowing these two Bills dealing with the same question to go to different Committees, and that it is only after the Government Bill has been agreed to that the difference will be discussed? Shortly, it is not putting the House in a proper position that they should have two Committees sitting for the same object—one dealing with a Bill promoted by a London company, and the other with a Bill promoted by the Local Government Board. I do hope the Government will reconsider their position in regard to this Bill, and do what I cannot help thinking has invariably been done—namely, to send Bills dealing with the same subject to the same Committee, who will come to some general conclusion as to what should be done with regard to them.
  *SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: This is a question which very largely affects the Thames Conservancy. We are bound by the Act of Parliament under which we work to see that we have sufficient water to navigate the Thames, and when this Bill was produced we looked very carefully into the clause which the honourable Member for Poplar has alluded to, and we objected to it, because we thought that in times of drought we might have the river denuded of its water, and its navigation seriously affected. We had a conference with the
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  London company, and the East London Company has consented to a clause being put in by which they will not take water from the Thames when the overflow is less than 200 million gallons over Teddington Weir, which is settled to be a proper amount. Therefore this clause will be inserted, and put an end to the difficulty alluded to.
  Bill read a second time, and committed.

  METROPOLITAN WATER COMPANY'S BILL.
  Motion made and Question proposed—
  "That this Bill be read a second time."
  MR. STUART: Does the right honourable Gentleman intend also to send this Bill to a Committee?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD: Yes.
  *SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: The same clause was put into this Bill with regard to water being taken from the Thames.
  MR. BUXTON: With reference to this Bill—because the right honourable Gentleman will remember when he introduced his Bill, to which we made objection, because it was founded upon the distinct recommendation of the Royal Commission in regard to this matter—they say there has been no communication between the companies, in order to save any possibility of famine, such as that which occurred last year. But the Royal Commissioners did hedge it about, with certain conditions. They hedged it about with conditions that under temporary circumstances such as those, no further water should be taken from the Thames. They hedged it about with the condition that the capital expended on that Measure should not go to increase the value of the companies when they were purchased, and in regard to the question of the sinking fund, they also introduced that by the Bill. This Bill does not deal with any of those three points satisfactorily, but the honourable Gentleman who represents the

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  Thames Conservancy says, as I understand, that there will be a certain check upon their taking water from the Thames.
  *SIR F. DIXON - HARTLAND: A clause will be inserted the same as in the last Bill, that they are not to take water unless the overflow at Teddington Weir exceeds 200 million gallons.
  MR. BUXTON: Quite so; but still they are liable to take more water from the Thames, and that seems to me to be a matter which is going beyond what is our view of the intention and will of the Royal Commission. There is no clause in this Bill dealing with the question of the sinking fund, as to which the Royal Commission made a special Report—namely, that any capital expended on this matter should not go to increase the value of the companies when purchased. Therefore I should really like the right honourable Gentleman to explain to us what is the advantage of this Bill at all. He has the Government Bill to carry out this very object. It is surrounded with certain safeguards which will not prejudice the question of water supply, and on that ground we are willing to support the Bill. We have passed an automatic Bill to enable that very company, which is likely to have large questions of emergency arise, to deal with them, because when discussing the right honourable Gentleman's Bill the other day I ventured to ask him across the House whether he intended that Bill to be of a temporary character, and one which would not prejudice the question of communication in the future, when a fresh supply was taken either from the Thames or elsewhere. The right honourable Gentleman, replying himself across the House, practically agreed to that proposition. This Bill, as it stands, is a much more far-reaching one than that of the Government, and I hope the right honourable Gentleman will see himself that in the shape and way in which it is drawn it will very considerably prejudice, or may prejudice, the question of future supply, because it provides for a large system which may cost £300,000 or £400,000, and when the new system is taken in hand, may be unnecessary, or which may be brought about in a much better or more
  1528
  economical way. Therefore I do hope the right honourable Gentleman will take up a different attitude with regard to this Bill than in regard to the last one, and see that it is not a Bill which ought to be passed, taking into account the fact that no emergency can arise, because of the Government Bill, and that we are dealing with a company, for whom special provisions may specially be made.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD: The honourable Gentleman asked me what attitude I should take towards this Bill. The answer is that this Bill goes further and contains provisions which the Government Bill does not. Possibly some of these provisions are valuable. I am informed that arrangements have been come to between the Conservancy interests and the company, but that was impossible in the Government Bill, because it was impossible to give the notices required by statute. All the other matters which the honourable Gentleman referred to are matters that can be adjusted in Committee. As to the question he puts, why all these Bills are not to go to the same Committee, the reason is that this matter is one of urgency, works require to be done within a period when we may possibly expect them to be effective. Under these circumstances, though I admit that the matter has not been very simple, I have done the best thing I possibly could. My object has been to get the Bills through as rapidly as possible for the purpose of arranging for these works, and if all the Bills were to go to the same Committee it naturally would lead to very considerable delay.
  Bill read a second time, and committed.

  WEST MIDDLESEX WATER BILL.
  On the Motion for the Second Reading,
  MR. STUART: I understand this Bill is purely temporary in connection with what is to be permanently done. There are some things that have been omitted as in the other Bills, such as the sinking fund, and the clause with respect to purchase to

  1529
  which I must call attention; but I think perhaps the honourable Gentleman in charge of the Kill will say if my interpretation of the Hill is correct?
  MR. BOULNOIS (Marylebone, E.): The object of this Bill is to provide a main from the intake at Hampton to the reservoirs at Karnes, and to take an additional quantity of water from the Thames by arrangement with the Thames Conservancy, which we should be entitled to take under the Staines Reservoirs Act, say three years hence, when the reservoirs will be completed. It is practically a temporary Measure, and is brought forward to meet not so much an emergency as with a view to prevent anything like a deficiency of water, and especially in view of the arrangements which we have made with the other companies in the metropolis to carry out a communication for the water supply. With regard to the observation of the honourable Member for Shoreditch as to the sinking fund clause being omitted from the provisions of this Bill, I would point out to the House that if the sinking fund clause is inserted in this Bill, whatever is deducted from the company must absolutely come out of the consumers' pockets. It will not come out of the shareholders' dividends in any form or shape; and although, of course, the directors of this company look for their dividends to pay their shareholders, they are equally interested in the consumer. I hear some Gentlemen laugh, but I do assure the House, as far as I am personally concerned, I stand here as the representative of my constituents, and I claim for them that if this clause should be inserted in this Bill they will be the sufferers and not the shareholders of the company. Under these circumstances I hope the clause will not be inserted by the Committee upstairs, but I thought it right that I should supplement the honourable Gentleman's observations to that extent.
  The Bill was read a second time, without a division.

  LONDON WATER (WELSH RESERVOIRS AND WORKS) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That this Bill be now read a second time."
  MR. STUART: This Bill is for purchasing land in Wales, by agreement or otherwise, and creating reservoirs there in order to provide for the future water supply of London. It is not intended by this Bill to substitute this water for the water—the most part at any rate—that is at present used in London; but in the opinion of many who are very well acquainted expertly with the subject the demands already sanctioned on the Thames and on the Lea, and on the wells in the neighbourhood—Hertfordshire and the like, are as great as we can well and with safety allow them to be. It may be known to the House that 150 millions of gallons are at present liable to be taken from the Thames, but that by two Bills recently passed, of the Southwark and Vauxhall Company and the Staines Reservoirs, this has been raised to a total amount of 180 million gallons.
  SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: One hundred and thirty millions.
  MR. STUART: The total amount is 185 millions now.
  SIR F. DIXON HARTLAND: Yes.
  MR. STUART: That is the total figure; probably the honourable Gentleman and I quite agree on the figures—185½ million gallons is now authorised to be taken from the Thames, although not at present taken and that, with something like 120 million gallons from the Lea and the wells, make up the quantity of water which is authorised to be taken by the various companies permanently from the courses immediately available in the Thames and Lea Valley, making a total, roughly speaking, of 300 million gallons, which water is recognised by those who have given evidence on the matter to be practically sufficient for the requirements of London till the year 1911 or 1912. Therefore some steps had to be

  1531
  taken to secure additional supplies before the year 1911 or 1912, that is to say, roughly about a dozen years hence. Those, therefore, who are interested in the water supply of London have been casting about for the source from which that additional supply should be taken, and there have, roughly speaking, been two groups of ideas. One has been that a greater quantity of water may be taken from the Thames, and the other is that that safe limit has now been reached in the numbers that I have stated, and that further water ought to be taken from some other and more distant source, such as Wales. Those who propose to take water from the Thames and Lea propose to do so by a large system of impounding that water at flood, or at any rate when the river is very full, and permitting a certain residue, which has been laid down as sufficient for the river, to flow in each river over certain weirs. Now, that residue is wholly insufficient in the case of the Lea, but that is not before us for the moment. That Bill has now gone to a Committee; we have passed the Second Reading, and that question is no longer before us. But in respect of the Thames, if what is urged by those who oppose taking a larger amount than is already agreed to be taken be correct—and I ask the House always to remember that that is considerably in excess of what is at present taken—those who oppose the taking of a larger quantity of water from the Thames do so on the ground that it cannot be done without very great expense. The enormous expense of the Staines Reservoirs will have to be multiplied very much when they take the greater quantity of water than they now take, because the House will see if you are to fix a certain minimum which is to flow over a. certain weir each day, then every multiple of that which you took before and which you use by impounding!, creates the necessity of impounding only the surplus, and therefore the getting of large areas of impounding tanks. That practically is the system proposed by the water companies, roughly speaking, and it means an extremely large expenditure, however you like to look at it, upon tanks or impounding reservoirs. And the smaller the flow of the river becomes in any year the more large, far more largo in
  1532
  proportion, do these impounding reservoirs need to be, because if there was only a very few gallons over the minimum then it would require enormous reservoirs to preserve sufficient to make any adequate daily supply. I apologise to the House for having to deal with such an intricate matter, but it is necessary in order to know where the great expense comes in of these reservoirs. Then there is another matter which we feel a great deal of force in, that is that the Thames is a river which has a large population upon its banks, and if you will look at the recent report laid before the London County Council, in respect of pollution, you will see there is going on, in spite of the praiseworthy efforts of the Thames Conservancy, a large amount of pollution in respect of the river.
  SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: No.
  MR. STUART: A large amount of pollution, which must increase, and which the honourable Gentleman must admit must take place at the time of flood water; and unless these reservoirs take the water at the time of flood water they will have to reduce the quantity of water that flows over the weirs at the minimum. There conies the exact point of extreme importance in respect of the whole of this great scheme for the supply of London with water in future—that in order to avoid the taking of flood water you must be driven to reduce the minimum flow of the Thames lower than what it is just now; and whereas the minimum flow was held to be, and is well defended by the honourable Gentleman, if he will allow me to compliment him, the minimum flow of the Thames as it has been laid down, yet the evidence that has been given more recently, particularly by the water companies, shows that it is quite obvious that what these companies have in view is that a very much smaller flow over the weir of the Thames is adequate, and that they ought to be allowed to reduce that minimum flow. Now, what I want to point out is this: If you find, by taking water from the Thames only in that way, and not taking it at times of high flood, that you cannot get enough water, then it is inevitable that you will be driven to reducing the minimum flow

  1533
  of the Thames until you get it in much the same condition below the intakes as the River Lea is at present, which, as any honourable Member who chooses to go to the East End of London will see to be a very unsatisfactory condition. Those are some of the points with respect to the in advisability of taking the future increase of London water to a larger extent than has now been agreed upon from the Thames and the Lea. Now, the London County Council has had this matter under very careful consideration for a long time, and it has not been without a proper authority that we have had to consider this question. We have been instructed to do it. Sir Matthew White Ridley's Committee in 1891 reported that powers should be granted to the London County Council to expend such further sums as may be reasonably necessary in order that they may examine for themselves, as the responsible municipal authority of London, the whole position of the metropolitan water supply, and come to a conclusion as to the policy which, for financial and other reasons, it is desirable to adopt. We have done that. We have done that over a series of years, and we have had two main lines of resolution. The first is that the water companies ought to be purchased by the London County Council, under circumstances laid down in Bills to be introduced, and the second is that the future supply for London ought to be got from a certain district in Wales which is indicated in the Bill to which I am now alluding. That latter part of our programme, so to speak, has taken a longer period to mature because of the great investigations that we required on the rainfall and other matters, and the quality of the water, and so on. But the London County Council—being empowered by Parliament, as it was after this report of Sir Matthew White Ridley's Committee in the direction I have just read—has now, this Session, brought before Parliament a complete scheme—an absolutely complete scheme for the future of the London water supply. You may find fault with the scheme or not, but it is a complete scheme. It is a scheme whereby we propose, in a certain Bill before the House, to purchase the water companies under certain circumstances and under certain terms; the other part is that we should continue to take the
  1534
  water supply from the Thames and the Lea so far as it is satisfactory and authorised; and that we should go for additional water in the way described in this Bill, bringing it from Wales by an aqueduct, as provided in a subsequent Bill that will be laid before this House. That is our scheme. It is a coherent scheme. It is a scheme that does not deal with the water supply of to-morrow; it deals with the future water supply of London. I think I may point out that had our Purchase Bill been carried we should have been immediately empowered, and we should have been under the obligation to have done the very thing which the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board has endeavoured to do by no less than three Bills sent to two different Committees but, however that may be, we should, if our scheme had been carried out this year, have been able to do all that his scheme proposes. However that may be, his Bill may be regarded as meeting the immediate points, and the future of the London water supply is dealt with in the comprehensive scheme which I have just suggested to the House. The first portion of the scheme comes before the House to-day in the Bill the Second Reading of which I have just moved. That is a Bill, as I have said, for securing the land and for making the reservoirs. I have already stated in the House that the Motion which the honourable Gentleman on the other side (Mr. Whitmore) intends to make against this Bill, that it should be hung up until after the Report of the Royal Commission, is beside the mark, because the Royal Commission has no instruction whatever to report upon the question of getting water from Wales. It has no such reference. It has certainly taken a great deal of evidence about that; but it is obvious you can see why it has done so—to secure some knowledge of what should be the future sum necessary to be expended by whoever should be the water authority for London; and it has seemed that that sum will not be very different in amount one way or the other whichever of the two schemes be carried out. Having got that sum, that is what the Royal Commission needs to know. It has certainly taken evidence on the matter a considerable time ago, but that evidence is finished; and although the Commission has not

  1535
  reported, that evidence can go before the Committee on that Bill; and, therefore, all that need be done, all the effect of the Royal Commission upon the judgment of the House upon this Bill is such that it neither influences whether this Bill should be read a second time or not on this occasion. If you postpone this Bill till after the Report of the Royal Commission, you are practically preventing the Committee, which has before it one system of dealing with the future supply of London, from considering another system for dealing with the supply of London. There is no ground whatever for postponing this Bill until the Royal Commission has reported; and therefore what we do is to ask the House to read it now, inasmuch as it is a Bill seriously affecting the future method of dealing with the water supply of London. You can see that this Bill should go forward at this time, and, anxious as we are, we realise that it might be said that the passing of this Bill would prejudge the question of the future water authority of London, because it may be said that the London County Council are securing an area for the supply of water, and that in that way they are in some surreptitious manner becoming the authority for the water supply of London. All I can say is this: having investigated this matter for many years, having gone into it very fully, we are so impressed with the terrible evil of going along the Thames line only to supply London—the Thames and the Lea lines—and not adopting a Welsh system, such as this, that we feel it is necessary to proceed with it now in the face of these Bills, and we are perfectly prepared, if this Bill is granted to us, to hold the area in trust for whoever should be the future responsible water authority for London. If that is so, where is the ground for throwing out this Bill because the Royal Commission has not reported? There is no ground, and I ask the Government, who are extremely anxious, as I can imagine, that there should be a reasonable opportunity of securing a good future supply to London, are they or are they not to allow this Bill to pass now? Because they can allow it to pass if the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board will stand up and say he is prepared to do so. Are
  1536
  they or are they not going to allow this Bill to pass now? If they pass the Bill which is to secure water by enormous reservoirs from the already exhausted and unsanitary sources of the river Lea—("No!") Whatever may be your view upon that, at any rate they passed a Bill which involves the expenditure of 1½ millions of money by the other method of supplying water for London than that from Wales. That is passed by the assistance and with the approval of the Government, and, I say, are they now going to throw out this particular Bill that I bring before the House, and thereby allow the Committee only to consider the one method and not to consider the two methods? We should be committed to the one method of necessity, probably because the argument may be urged that London requires more water within five or six years. If that is so, I do not think we should be committed to this particular method of dealing with the matter, and it will be a whole year before we can bring up this Welsh scheme again, which will then be rendered practically impossible, having passed the other Bill which we have passed to-day. I do appeal to the right honourable Gentleman to be fair all round in this matter—to let these two Bills go before the Committee, and if he does not, on behalf of the Government and on behalf of himself, he takes a very serious and a very heavy responsibility.
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, ' it is inexpedient that the Bill be read a second time before the Royal Commission on London Water Supply has presented its Report,' instead thereof."—(Mr. Whit-more.)
  *MR. WHITMORE: I beg, Sir, to move the Amendment which stands in my name. The honourable Gentleman the Member for Shoreditch has made a very interesting, but not, I think, a very convincing speech. The whole burden of it is that there are two alternative methods of meeting the demand of London with regard to water. That is not so. As regards the immediate future, we must go to the Thames, and the water companies, by the Bills we have just read a second time, will give us every security that London will be safe in the

  1537
  immediate future from any danger whatever of a recurrence of a water famine. When you come to the larger future and the more distant future, I think there is much to be said for the view of the honourable Gentleman. Certainly, in moving this Amendment, I do not wish to be understood for a moment as committing myself to the proposition that some other 60urce of supply than the Thames may not at some future time be required for London. I think that is very likely the case. It may be the case that these particular sources of supply in Wales are about the best that can be obtained, and for my part I do not think that London ought to be slow to secure some such site—not perhaps immediately to construct aqueducts and connections between those new sources of supply and London. But without doubt, there will be a race between all the great populations of England to secure for themselves an ample supply in the future, and it will be well that London should not be behindhand in that competition. But what we have got to face to-day is the statement of the honourable Gentleman himself. He says that the London County Council has got a complete, a coherent scheme, which is brought before Parliament. The essential part of that scheme is its Purchase Bill—the Purchase Bill by which the County Council proposes to acquire the water companies, and to become itself the water authority for London. That is part of the coherent and complete scheme. But the honourable Gentleman himself has postponed the second reading of that Bill in the hope that the Royal Commission may report on this matter before he brings the Second Beading before the House. If this scheme is a complete and coherent scheme, surely it is necessary also to postpone this component part of the whole scheme.
  MR. STUART: It does not follow that part of a coherent scheme is itself bad.
  *MR. WHITMORE: Not bad, but what applies to one part of a coherent scheme applies to another part of it. I am not arguing that it is bad, but as part of the scheme has been, at the instigation of the honourable Gentleman himself, postponed, it would be' wise also
  1538
  to have this part postponed until the Committee has reported. I cannot conceive myself how any honourable Gentleman really thinks that a Select Committee of this House could give its sanction to the acquisition of a great tract of country and the construction of reservoirs without being certain that the body which undertakes this great task was certain to be the water authority for London. How would the Select Committee know whether that is to be the case with regard to London? It may be so, or it may not be so—we do not know. Surely it is only right, it is only reasonable, that the authority which is to be created after the Report of the Royal Commission, without doubt by the Government, or by Parliament, should have the responsibility from the very beginning for the future water supply of London. In my judgment it is just as futile to ask a Select Committee of this House at the present moment to pass an opinion as to the wisdom of the London Count}' Council in acquiring these new sources of supply, as it is, on the admission of the honourable Gentleman himself, to ask the Committee to sanction the purchase of the water supply. I don't for a moment wish to put off the question of this great water problem of London. The present uncertainty is hard upon the water companies. It is demoralising the County Council and—
  MR. STUART: The Motion to bring forward the Bill was passed unanimously.
  *MR. WHITMORE: This uncertainty is expensive to the ratepayers of London, and unfair to the consumers. But we cannot remove the uncertainty, we cannot obtain the desired settlement, until the Royal Commission has presented its Report. I beg to move the Amendment.
  MR. COHEN (Islington, E.)formally seconded the Amendment.
  MR. BUXTON: I agree to a very large extent with the views expressed by the honourable Member for Chelsea (Mr. Whitmore). The whole question of the future supply must be considered at an early date. The honourable Member also thinks it is very important that some area of a possible future supply ought to be secured at as early a date as possible. He said he did not wish to

  1539
  urge a dilatory plea, but it seemed to me that his argument tended that way. It is quite certain that whatever the Report of the Royal Commission is, Parliament will not be able to deal with the matter for some time to come. Then the authority will have to be stated, and it is quite certain that it will be at least two or three years before the question of purchase has been carried to such completion as to satisfy my honourable Friend. He also submitted that it was necessary, for fear of it getting into other hands, for London to get a good source of supply, and that he would like to see the question settled, because it gave rise to disputes. At all events, we are not sure these disputes will not continue for another three or four years. Now, what I want to ask the President of the Local Government Board is this—whether he is going to treat the question of this supply in a different way to what he has treated the question of supplies in other quarters, as discussed earlier in the afternoon? Already large sums of money have been spent in increasing the supply, and it will certainly take 10 or 11 years to bring this new supply to London. As regards the question of purchase, that does not come in one way or the other in this Bill. I hope the right honourable Gentleman will take into account the points raised, which ore of such serious moment to the metropolis at large.
  *SIR F. DIXON-HARTLAND: We do not think that if this Bill is passed it will bring up the question of the full scheme. We ought to have the Welsh supply and this all brought up together, because if the matter is prejudiced by allowing the London County Council to obtain the Welsh supply they will then have the power, if they please, to make an alternative system of water supply to that provided by the water companies, and that would interfere with the counties at present supplied by these companies, which are not at all under the control of the county councils. In Middlesex we object to the London County Council having any rights within our borders, and we should not be prepared to go for a supply in that county from the London County Council. I am told that every other county round London objects in exactly the same way. The honourable
  1540
  Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Stuart) spoke of the action of the Thames Conservancy. I can assure the House that they have taken a good deal of trouble. A report which was presented only last week shows that only 113 cases of pollution at the present moment exist, and that water has been purified to such an extent that 500,000 people who in 1884 had polluted water have now pure water. We do hope that the salmon trout which we propose to put into the river this year will have the effect of making the Thames a salmon-producing river. If that is done, it will show that the Thames water is as good a water as people can have to drink.
  *MR. A. C. HUMPHREYS-OWEN: I desire to say a few words with reference to the case of the small Welsh farmers whose lands will be submerged by the operation of this Bill. Although the valleys are sparsely populated, they still contain many inhabitants who will be compelled to seek other habitations. Now, the class of people who hold these farms are for the most part small holders, who generally work their farms with only the labour of their own families. Well, now, we know it is a certain fact that the demand for farms in Welsh speaking districts is exceedingly great. I do not suppose that in the whole of these counties there is a single farm vacant for want of tenants. What then is to become of the farmers who are in this position? It might be contended that the clause which provides for the rehousing of persons of the working classes which appears in the Bill would be sufficient to provide for them. I think, however, that looking at the definition part of the clause, it will be seen that this definition does not cover the case of the small farmers working their own land. It meets the case of the town artizan. No doubt this clause was framed with the view of meeting the case of persons of the artizan classes who are ejected in consequence of railways being made or other clearances in the suburbs of large towns. Now, Sir, I think the ideal way of dealing with this would be to alter the definition clause so as to make it clear that it should be the duty of the Council to provide other farms for those whose holdings are thus taken from them. I understand, however, that as

  1541
  this is what is known as a Model Clause there will be considerable difficulty with the authorities in the House in getting such an alteration as that. Then there is the other alternative, of course—that of compensation. Now, here is another difficulty. These tenant farmers have been on their farms from generation to generation; yet legally they only hold their tenancy from year to year. They have, therefore, if they go for compensation under the Land Clauses Acts, next to no claim. I think this raises a very strong claim upon the London County Council to take a generous view of the position of these small farmers. I believe they arc ready to do so. I am bound to say that, though I am glad there is a possibility of that being done, yet I cannot regard that as really satisfactory. I do not wish to oppose the Bill on this ground. The Kill is of far too great importance to the metropolis of London for us to obstruct it and oppose it. Indeed, we shall be, for many reasons, glad to welcome the London County Council in Wales. At the same time, I hope I may be able to receive from my honourable Friend the Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Stuart) some statement as to the intention of the Council to provide as fully as they possibly can, for the small Welsh farmers whom their operations will displace.
  MR. W. JONES (Carnarvon): Mr. Speaker, I understand that this Welsh scheme will affect two or three schools in this neighbourhood which are to come down, and I hope my honourable Friend the Member for Shoreditch (Mr. Stuart) will be able to give us an assurance that the London County Council is prepared to replace them in the interests both of scholars and teachers.
  MR. LLOYD MORGAN (Carmarthen, W.): Mr. Speaker, I won't trouble the House with more than two or three observations in support of the case put forward by my honourable Friend the honourable Member for Montgomeryshire. I quite agree with the observations he has made as to the unfortunate position in which a very considerable number of small Welsh farmers on the hills will be placed when the London County Council proceed to construct reservoirs, if this Bill becomes law. It seems to me, as far as I can gather, that
  1542
  this Bill would have been petitioned against but for the very short time given for the presentation of petitions, because it was thought that the Bill would have been thrown out owing to non-compliance with the Standing Orders. The Bill, as it stands, so far as small farms are concerned, seems to me to be unsatisfactory, because—unless we have some distinct understanding as to the manner in which they will be dealt with when the honourable Gentleman the Member for Shoreditch replies to the questions put to him by my honourable Friend—this clause deals with various classes of people, but it does not deal with the small occupying tenant farmer. The landowner will receive very substantial compensation; the leaseholder will also receive substantial, and, perhaps, very great compensation; the small shopkeeper will be looked after, but there is one class which, under this Bill, will receive no consideration at all, and that is the class entitled to the most consideration, in my opinion, and that is the small occupying farmer in the Welsh counties. Unless we have from my honourable Friend the Member for Shoreditch some satisfaction that they will receive not. only fair, but reasonable and liberal compensation, I shall have to consider the attitude which I take in reference to the Bill. But I feel sure that my honourable Friend will make a statement which will give us satisfaction, and make it impossible for us to oppose this Bill.
  MR. STUART: Mr. Speaker, with the leave of the House, I will just answer that question as to the clause with respect to the displacement of persons. The labouring clause is, of course, the ordinary model clause which would refer to all agricultural labourers, but not to the occupiers of small farms, who have no lease whatever, but which they hold entirely at the word of the landlord or landlady. Many of these small occupying tenants had not only held their farms for many years, but their ancestors for many years had held the same farms. They do not come under the labour clause. On the question of compensation, the London County Council has met some representatives of these bodies, and, having heard the circumstances from them—one member of the deputation said he

  1543
  would rather have the word of Mrs. So-and-So than the mention of his landlord and a written document from anybody else—all I have got to say is, that the London County Council has given them assurances, and I give the assurance to the House, that the fact that it is the customary condition in the country that they have no lease will not be regarded as a bar to their receiving compensation. We shall deal with each case on its merits. As to the schools, if it is quite clear that a population is moved, the schools must be created again.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD: Mr. Speaker, I hope it will be possible for me to follow the example of those who have aready spoken, and to delay the House for only a few moments. My honourable Friend opposite asked mo why a distinction should be made between the two Bills dealing with this subject. The answer, I think, is an extremely simple one. The House has already heard something which I said a few moments ago on the other Bill—that it was not calculated to prejudice in any way the number of precedents which have been submitted to the Royal Commission. The present Bill prejudices nearly all the questions which are at this moment before the consideration of the Royal Commission. The House must remember that the Bill raises a number of questions of the first importance. One is, whether the present sources of water supply to the East of London are so insufficient and so precarious as to render it absolutely necessary in the interests of London to acquire others within the shortest possible space of time. The second question is, whether that necessity has been proved, and whether the urgency is pressing. The honourable Member said—
  "Why wait for the decision of the Royal Commission on this point? They have nothing whatever in their reference entitling them to inquire into the question as to the supply from Wales."
  They have no direct reference, that is true; but unquestionably, under one aspect of the case, it must come within their consideration. The very first thing they would require to know was whether, having regard to financial considerations, the present and prospective requirements with regard to water supply could be in the interests of the
  1544
  ratepayers. Incidentally, also, the Bill refers to other questions. It raises the question who is to be the new authority, and it also raises the whole question of the policy of purchase. But, as everybody knows, these are questions which are before the Royal Commission at the present moment. I am quite aware that my honourable Friend said the County Council, if this Bill was carried, are quite prepared to hold the new property in trust. Yet I think everybody will agree with me in this, if the London County Council acquire the property they are seeking to acquire that practically settles the question of who is to be the new authority, and whether purchase is to be undertaken or not, because it is perfectly obvious that the two systems could not run in competition side by side. Well, then, the only ground that the honourable Member is pressing the Bill is the ground of extreme urgency. He says there is not a moment to lose, and this question must be dealt with during the present Session, and he entered into an elaborate argument to show that although there would be within a certain number of years a provision of 300 million gallons a day for the use of the inhalbitants of London, still he said that by the year 1912 the population of London would have assumed such enormous proportions that it was absolutely necessary to proceed without a moment's delay, because the works necessary to be carried out by the County Council to bring water from Wales would occupy practically the whole of the intervening time. The honourable Member has made a mistake in his calculations. Unless I am totally misinformed, and I am entitled to think I am correctly informed, it will not be until the year 1917 that the population will reach the extent which will require more than that amount of water for their consumption. I am very sorry indeed that it unfortunately appears always to be falling to my lot, speaking as the representative of the Local Government Board, to oppose the Bills and wishes of this great authority, but I feel that in a case of this kind I have no alternative. The Government made themselves responsible for this Commission and the questions submitted to them, and a number of those questions they have already reported upon, and I have every reason to believe that they

  1545
  are now at this moment entering upon the completion of their labours. The honourable Member has practically admitted there is great force in these contentions, and that he and his friends have adopted a very unusual and very exceptional, if not unprecedented, course in endeavouring to seek the decision of Parliament upon questions which in a very few weeks the Commission must report. It will be remembered that the honourable Member himself put down a Motion postponing the Second Reading of the Council's Purchase Bill in order that the Commission might have reported before the House assents to the Second Reading.
  MR. STUART: I did not propose to postpone the Bill in order that the Commission might report, but that it might have an opportunity of reporting.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD: I don't see the distinction. I suppose the honourable Member took that course because he thought it would be a great advantage to have the views of the Commission before us. The honourable Gentleman, therefore, does admit the force of the contention I am submitting to the House. I don't think it is necessary to say anything further upon this point. There is a very great volume of opinion in the House that the County Council is ill-advised in pressing further this Motion just at the present time, and, much as I regret being in constant opposition to that body, I have no alternative.
  Question put—
  "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 130; Noes. 206.—(Division List No. 66.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Maddison, Fred.

  Abraham, William (Rhondda)

  Fergusson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

  Mappin, Sir Frederick T.

  Allen, W.(Newc.-under-Lyme)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Fdmond

  Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

  Allison, Robert Andrew

  Flynn, Jas. Christopher

  Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)

  Ambrose, Robert

  Gladstone Rt. Hon. Herbt, J

  Morgan, J. L. (Carmarthen)

  Ashton, Thomas Gair

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Morley, Chas. (Breconshire)

  Austin, Sir J. (Yorkshire)

  Gold, Charles

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

  Gordon, Hon. J. Edw.

  Norton, Capt. Cecil Wm.

  Baker, Sir John

  Grey, Sir Edw. (Berwick)

  O'Brien, J. F. X. (Cork)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Gurdon, Sir William Brampton

  O'Connor, T. P, (Liverpool)

  Barley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Billson, Alfred

  Hayne, Rt. hon. C. Seale-

  Pearson, Sir Weetman D.

  Birrell, Augustine

  Hazell, Walter

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Blake, Edward

  Hedderwick, T. C. H.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Hoare, Samuel (Northwich)

  Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Holland, W. H.(York, W. R.)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edw.

  Buchanan, T. Ryburn

  Horriman, Frederick J.

  Reid, Sir Robert Threshie

  Burns, John

  Humphreys-Owen, A. C.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Burt, Thomas

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Roberts, J. H. (Denbighs.)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Robertson, Edmund (Dundee)

  Caldwell, James

  Jameson, Major J. Eustace

  Roche, Hon. J. (East Kerry)

  Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)

  Jones, Wm. (Carnarvonshire)

  Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

  Campbell-Bannerman, SirH.

  Kay-Shuttleworth, RtHnSirU.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Carmichad, Sir T.D. Gibson -

  Kearley, Hudson E.

  Scott, C. Prestwick (Leigh)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Kilbride, Denis

  Shaw, Chas. E. (Stafford)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Kitson, Sir James

  Shaw, Thos. (Hawick R.)

  Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh)

  Lambert, George

  Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire).

  Colville, John

  Langley, Batty

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Corbett, A. C. (Glasgow)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Crombie, John William

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Souttar, Robinson

  Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Leng, Sir John

  Spicer, Albert

  Curran, T. B. (Donegal)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Steadman, William Charles

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Strachey, Edward

  Dillon, John

  Logan, John William

  Sullivan, D. (Westmeath)

  Donelan, captain A.

  Lough, Thomas

  Tennant, Harold John

  Douglas, C. M. (Lanark)

  Lowles, John

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Trevelyan, Charles Philips

  Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

  MacDonell, D. M. A. (Queen'sC

  Ure, Alexander

  Ellis, T. W. (Merionethsh.)

  M'Laren, Chas. Benjamin

  Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  M'Leod, John

  Wallace, Robert (Perth)

  Walton, J. Lawson (Leeds,S.)

  Wilson, Fredk. W. (Norfolk)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Weaderburn, Sir William

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

  Mr. James Stuart and Mr.

  Weir, James Galloway

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Dickersgill.

  Williams, J. Carvell (Notts.)

  Woods, Samuel

  Wills, Sir William Henry

  Yoxall, James Henry

  NOES.

  Aird, John

  Fergusson, RtHnSirJ. (Manc'r

  Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. H.

  Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

  Finlay, Sir Robt. Bannatyne

  Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

  Anstruther, H. T.

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J.

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Fison, Frederick William

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Monckton, Edward Philip

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Flower, Ernest

  Monk, Charles James

  Baird, J. G. A.

  Folkestone, Viscount

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Fry, Lewis

  More, R. Jasper (Shropshire)

  Balfour Rt. Hn. A. J.(Manch'r

  Garfit, William

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Balfour, Rt, Hh. G. W.(Leeds)

  Gedge, Sydney

  Morton, Arthur H. A.(Deptf 'd)

  Banbury, Fredk. George

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H.(City Lond.)

  Mount, William George

  Barry, Sir F. T. (Windsor)

  Goldsworthy, Major-General

  Muntz, Philip A.

  Barton, Dunbar Plunket

  Gorst, Rt, hon. Sir J. Eldon

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benj.

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Myers, William Henry-

  Beach, RtHnSir M. H.(Bristol)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Begg, Ferdinand Faithful

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)

  Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

  Gretton, John

  Orr-Ewing, Chas. Lindsay

  Bethell, Commander

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Penn, John

  Biddulph, Michael

  Gunter, Colonel

  Percy, Earl

  Bigwood, James

  Halsey, Thomas Frederick

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Bill, Charles

  Hamilton, Rt, Hon. Lord G.

  Pilkington, Richard

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W.

  Platt-Higgins, Frederick

  Bond Edward

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edm.)

  Bowles, Capt. H.F.(Middlesex)

  Heath James

  Purvis, Robert

  Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Rankin, Sir James

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Helder, Augustus

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. C. Thomson

  Brown, Alexander H.

  Henderson, Alexander

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Hill, Rt. Hon. A. S. (Staffs.)

  Rothschild, Hn. Lionel W.

  Butcher, John George

  Hill, Sir Edw. Stock (Bristol)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Carson, Rt. Hon. Edw.

  Hoare, E. Brodie (Hampstead)

  Russell, Gen. F. S. (Chelt' ham)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs.)

  Holland, Hon. L. R. (Bow)

  Russell, 'J*. W. (Tyrone) Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)

  Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.

  Hornby, Sir Wm. Henry

  Cecil, E. (Hertford, E.)

  Houldsworth, Sir W. Henry

  Sassoon, Sir Ed. Albert

  Cecil, Lord H. (Greenwich)

  Howard, Joseph

  Savory Sir Joseph

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Hozier, Hon. J. Henry Cecil

  Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone,W.)

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Wore'r)

  Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

  Sharpe, William Ed. T.

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hudson, George Bickersteth

  Sidebottom, Wm. (Derbyshire)

  Charrington, Spencer

  Hughes, Colonel Edwin

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Clarke, Sir E. (Plymouth)

  Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

  Skewes-Cox, Thomas

  Clough, Walter Owen

  Jessel, Capt. Herbt, Merton

  Smith, Abel H. (Christch.)

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Kenyon, James

  Smith, Hn. W.F.D. (Strand)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Kimber, Henry

  Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

  Stanley, H. M. (Lambeth)

  Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

  Cooke, C. W. R. (Hereford)

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J.M' Taggart

  Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W.

  Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset)

  Stock, James Henry

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cruddas, Wm. Donaldson

  Long, Col. Chas. W. (Evesham)

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)

  Strutt, Hon. C. Hedley

  Curzon, Viscount

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Butler

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh

  Lowe, Francis William

  Thornton, Percy M.

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lowther, Rt, Hon. J. (Kent)

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Lloyd, Archie Kirkman

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Denny, Colonel

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Valentia, Viscount

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.

  Doughty, George

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Walrond, Rt Hn Sir Wm. H.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Maclure, Sir John William

  Wanklyn, James Leslie

  Doxford, William Theodore

  M' Iver, Sir L. (Edinburgh, W.)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Drage, Geoffrey

  Malcolm, Ian

  Webster, R.G. (St. Far-eras)

  Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir W. Hart

  Maple, Sir John Blundell

  Webster, Sir R. E. (Isle of Wight

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Maxwell, Rt, Hon. Sir H. E.

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Mellor, Col. (Lancashire)

  Wharton, Rt. Hn. J. Lloyd

  1548

  1549

  Whiteley, Goo. (Stockport)

  Wodehouse. Rt Hn E R (Bath)

  Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C.B. Stuart

  Willox, Sir J Archibald

  Wylie, Alexander

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Wyvil, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Mr. Whitmore and Mr. Cohen

  Resolution agreed to.

  Words added.
  Resolved, That it is inexpedient that the Bill be read a second time before the Royal Commission on London Water Supply has presented its Report.

PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION OF CHILDREN BILL.
  Petition from London, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES SERVANTS' SUPERANNUATION BILL.
  Petitions in favour;—From Woking;—Petersfield;—Croydon;—and Hammersmith; to lie upon the Table.
  LONDON GOVERNMENT BILL.
  Petition of the District Surveyors' Association, against; to lie upon the Table.
  PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE.
  Petitions for extension to women;—From Edinburgh;—and Saffron Walden (two); to lie upon the Table.
  POOR LAW OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petition from Edinburgh, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  PUBLIC HEALTH ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Petition from Wednesbury, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL.
  Petitions in favour;—From Rainham;—Sunderland;—Norwich (two);—Stone;—Thomas Guthrie Lodge of Good Templars;—March;—Nottingham;—Gaisgill;—Nateby;—Milburn;—Soulby;—Crosby Garrett;—Bolton;—Appleby (two);—Great Strickland;—King's Meaburn;—Kirkby Stephen (two);—Kendal;—Westmorland;—Fell End;—Beck Foot;—Preston Patric;—Mallerstang;—Hollin Crag; Sowerby;—Old Hutton;—Asby:—Burnside;—Winton;—Greenholme;—Warcop;—Kirkby Lonsdale;—Grayrigg;—Whinfell;—Crook;—Staveley;—Great Musgrave;—and Manchester; to lie upon the Table.
  VACCINATION ACT, 1898.
  Petition from Rotherham, for appeal; to lie upon the Table
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  FACTORY AND WORKSHOP (LEAD COMPOUNDS IN POTTERY).
  Copy presented,—of Report to the Secretary of State for the Home Department by Professor T. E. Thorpe, LL.D., F.R.S., Principal of the Government Laboratory, and Professor Thomas Oliver, M.D., F.R.C.P., Physician to the Royal Infirmary, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, on the employment of Compounds of Lead in the Manufacture of Pottery, their influence upon the health of the workpeople, with suggestions as to the means which might be adopted to counteract their evil effects (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  POLLING DISTRICTS (MIDDLESEX).
  Copy presented,—of Order made by the County Council of Middlesex, altering the Highgate and Muswell Hill Polling Districts in the Parliamentary Division of Hornsey (by Act); to lie upon the Table.
  UNIVERSITY OF GLASGOW.
  Copy presented,—of Abstract of Accounts of the University of Glasgow for the year ending 30th September 1893 (by Act); to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. (No. 119.)
  UNIVERSITY OF SAINT ANDREWS.
  Copy presented,—of Abstract of Accounts of the University for the year ended 30th September 1898 (by Act); to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. (No. 120.)

  BOARD OF AGRICULTURE.
  Copy presented,—of Annual Report of Proceedings under the Tithe Acts, Copyhold Act, 1894, Inclosure Acts, and other Acts for the year 1898 (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  Of Annual Reports of Proceedings under the Diseases of Animals Acts, the Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle) Acts, etc., for the year 1898 (by Command); to lie upon the Table.

  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896.
  Copy presented,—of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways between Barking Town and the Beckton Gas Works in the County of Essex (Barking and Beckton Light Railways Order, 1898) (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented,—of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway between Didcot, in the county of Berks, and Watlington, in the county of Oxford (Didcot and Watlington Light Railway Order, 1898) (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented,—of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of Lincoln from Grimsby to Saltfleetby, with
  1552
  a branch to Cleethorpes (Grimsby and Saltfleetby Light Railway Order, 1898) (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented,—of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the county of Lincoln and the West Riding of the county of York from Haxey to Crowle and Marshlands with branches (Isle of Axholme Light Railways Order, 1898) (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented,—of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways from Stourbridge to Kinver, in the counties of Worcester and Stafford (Kinver Light Railway Order, 1898) (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented,—of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the county of Stafford between Cheddleton Junction, on the North Staffordshire Railway, to Caldon Low and Hulme End (Leek, Caldon Low, and Hartington Light Railways Order, 1898) (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented,—of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the county of Lancaster from Liverpool to Prescot (Liverpool and Prescot Light Railway Order, 1898) (by Command): to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented,—of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of Light Railways in the townships of Chirton, North Shields, Tynemouth, and Cullercoats, and the urban district of Whitley and Monkseaton, in the county of Northumberland (North Shields, Tynemouth, and District Light Rail-ways Order, 1898) (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented,—of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway from Trowse, in the county of Norfolk, to Beccles, in the county of Suffolk (South Norfolk Light Railway Order, 1898) (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  Copy presented,—of Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway from the Esplanade to the Isle of Wight Railway Company's Station, Ventnor (Ventnor Inclined Light Railway Order, 1898) (by Command); to lie upon the Table.

  EGYPT (No. 1, 1899).
  Copy presented,—of Despatches from Her Majesty's Agent and Consul-General in Egypt respecting the conduct of the British and Egyptian Troops after the Battle of Omdurman (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Copy presented,—of Statement showing (1) the Expenditure from the Grant for Public Education in England and Wales in the year 1898 upon Annual Grants to Elementary Schools; (2) the number of Public Elementary Day Schools on the Annual Grant List on the 31st August 1898; (3) Detailed Statistics of Inspected Schools, 1897–8, Public Elementary Day Schools, Evening Continuation Schools, and Certified Efficient Schools, etc.; (4) Tables of Educational Statistics; and (5) Number of School Boards under various Heads of Population (by Command); to lie upon the Table.
  INEBRIATE REFORMATORIES (IRELAND) (RULES).
  Copy presented,—of Rules for the Management of State Reformatories in Ireland (by Act); to lie upon the Table.

  COAL EXPORTS, ETC.
  Return ordered,
  "giving, for the year 1898, the export of coal from each port in the United Kingdom to each country abroad, together with a summary statement showing the export of coal from the principal districts of the United Kingdom to the principal groups of foreign countries; and also showing the quantity of coal shipped at each port in the United Kingdom for ships' use on foreign voyages during the same period (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper No. 352, Session 1898)."—(Mr. D. A. Thomas.)

  NAVAL EXPENDITURE AND MERCANTILE MARINE (GREAT BRITAIN, ETC).
  Return ordered, "Showing Aggregate Naval Expenditure on Seagoing Force; Aggregate Revenue; Aggregate Tonnage of Mercantile Marine; Annual Clearances of Shipping in the Foreign Trade; Annual Clearances of Shipping in the Coasting Trade; Annual Value of Imports by Sea, including Bullion and Specie; and Annual Value of Exports by Sea, including Bullion and Specie, of various Countries, exclusive of China and South American Republics, but including British Self-governing Colonies, for the year 1898 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 362, of Session 1898)."—(Sir John Colomb.)
BILLS ADVANCED.
  BRYNMAWR AND WESTERN VALLEYS RAILWAY BILL.
  Reported, with Amendments; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  STOCKPORT CORPORATION WATER BILL.
  Reported; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  WETHERBY DISTRICT WATER BILL.
  Reported; Reports to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  STOCKPORT DISTRICT WATER BILL.
  Reported; Report to lie upon the Table.
  GLASGOW DISTRICT SUBWAY BILL [H.L.]
  Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
  RUSHDEN AND HIGHAM FERRERS DISTRICT GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Read the first time; and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills.
  CENTRAL ELECTRIC SUPPLY BILL.
  Reported; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.
  ST. JAMES'S AND PALL MALL ELECTRIC LIGHT BILL.
  Reported; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  STANDING ORDERS.
  Resolution reported from the Committee—
  "That, in the case of the Lowestoft Promenade Pier, Petition for leave to deposit a Petition for Bill, the Standing Orders ought to bo dispensed with:—That the parties be permitted to deposit their Petition for a Bill."

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS
  That they have agreed to—
  Partridge Shooting (Ireland) Bill, without amendment.
  That they have passed a Bill, intituled, "An Act to authorise the Glasgow District Subway Company to raise additional capital; and for other purposes." (Glasgow District Subway Bill [H.L.].)
  And, also, a Bill, intituled, "An Act for incorporating and conferring powers on the Rushden and Higham Ferrers District Gas Company." (Rushden and Higham Ferrers District Gas Bill [H.L.].)

  EGYPT (FINANCIAL AID)
  Address for—
  "Return showing (so far as may be possible) all expenditure charged in any one year on the public revenues of the United Kingdom in connection with military operations in the Soudan since January 1883."—(Mr. Scott.)

NEW BILLS.
  PARLIAMENTARY DEPOSITS BILL
  "To amend the Law relating to Parliamentary Deposits in certain cases," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. (Bill 136.)
  METROPOLITAN COMMON SCHEME (HARROW WEALD).
  "To confirm a scheme relating to Harrow Weald Common,, in the parish of Harrow Weald in the county of Middlesex," presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed. (Bill 135.)
QUESTIONS.

  SMALL HOLDINGS ACT, 1892.
  MR. BILLSON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he will state the number ber of small holdings acqired under the Small Holdings Act, 1892, during the year 1898, and the number and area of holdings acquired since the Act came into operation.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (Mr. W. H. LONG,): Perhaps I may be allowed to answer this question. Full information as to the operations of local authorities under the Small Holdings Act, 1892, to the 24th June 1897, will be found in the Returns No. 407 of 1895 (Session 2) and 17 of 1898. Any later details would require to be specially collected and tabulated.

  STORNAWAY MAILS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster-General, if he will state how often during the months of December, January, and February last the steamer carrying Her Majesty's mails between Stornoway and Kyle of Lochalsh was late in her arrival at Stornaway and Kyle of Lochalsh respectively, and how often the delay exceeded half an hour at each place; and will he state the maximum delay on any one occasion?
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,): The mail steamers arrived late 57 times at Stornoway and 13 times at Kyle. The delay exceeded half an hour on 19 and 12 occasions respectively. The late arrivals at Stornoway of the outward mails were due, in part, to loss of time on the railway. The maximum delay, four hours, occurred on two occasions, namely, on the voyages from Stornoway to Kyle on the nights of the 22nd December and 20th January, the cause in each being the severity of the weather.

  RAILWAY LEVEL CROSSINGS IN SCOTLAND.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will state how many railway level-crossings there are in Scotland which pass over public thoroughfares, and which, being private property, do not come under the jurisdiction of the Board of Trade or any Government Department?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. A. GRAHAM MURRAY,): I am not in possession of the information for which the honourable Member asks. Inasmuch as all such crossings are within the jurisdiction of the county councils and burgh councils, who are, as the case may be, the road authority, and as there is no reason to suppose that the road authorities fail in their duty to provide for public safety, I can see no useful purpose in obtaining the information desired, even if it were possible to do so.

  PROTECTION OF WATER SUPPLIES.
  MR. CORNWALLIS: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he will introduce a Bill dealing with the protection of water supplies before Easter; and, if not before Easter, at an early date after the holidays?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. H. CHAPLIN,): I answered a similar Question only a few days ago. I cannot undertake to introduce a Bill dealing with the protection of water supplies before Easter, but I shall be quite ready to do so afterwards as soon as I see any reasonable hope of making progress with it.

LONDON AND DUBLIN ROYAL PARKS.
MR. DONAL SULLIVAN (Westmeath, S.): On behalf of the honourable Member for North Louth I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he could state the number of miles of road per square mile in the London and Dublin Royal parks, the comparative cost of maintenance per mile, and the number of

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men employed in each case on road work?
MR. HANBURY: The number of miles of carriage road per mile in London Royal Parks (including Hyde Park, Kensington Gardens, St. James's Park, Green Park, Regent's Park, and Primrose Hill) is a little over six; in Phoenix Park, Dublin, it is a little under six. The annual cost of maintenance per mile is £697 in London and £124 in Dublin. The difference is due partly to the far heavier traffic in the London parks and partly to the greater width of the roads. The cost per square yard of road is, in Dublin 2½d. per annum; in London l0½d.—or, if Greenwich, Richmond, and Bushey Parks are included, 5½d. per annum. The number of men daily employed by the Department is 30 in London and 27 in Dublin; but in London there is also a good deal of work done by contract. The figure in the latter case includes men employed on stone-breaking.

WORKMEN'S TRAINS ON THE SOUTHERN RAILWAYS.
MR. WOODS: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if his attention has been called to the great need of an increased service of workmen's trains on the South Eastern and the London, Chatham, and Dover Railways; whether he is aware that the fares on some portions of these companies' lines are very high; also that no workmen's trains are run by these companies from a number of important places, such as Croydon, Bromley, Bickley, Beckenham, Catford, Lee, etc.; and whether he will use his influence to cause a provision to be made in the Bill for the amalgamation of these railways, to compel them to run cheap trains for workmen and women between their central stations and these suburbs up to eight o'clock in the morning?
THE PRESIDENT OF TUB BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. C. T. RITCHIE,): My attention has been called to this matter. There are, I understand, proceedings pending before the Railway Commissioners affecting most of the places referred to. I am not aware that the ordinary law is insufficient to meet
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this case, or that any special provisions are desirable. It is, however, open to the Committee on the Bill to consider that question if they are moved to do so by petition. The companies suffer a great deal from congested traffic in the early morning, but they are dealing with the workmen's trains question in a conciliatory spirit, and I shall be happy to supply the honourable Member with a copy of the correspondence the Board of Trade have had with the companies on the subject.

DOCKYARD EXPENDITURE.
MR. WOODS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty whether he could state to what class of workmen in the dockyard the amount of £199,000, the increased dost under the heading of Shipbuilding Vote, would be appropriated?
THE SECRETARY TO TUB ADMIRALTY (Mr. W. E. MACARTNEY, Antrim, S.): The increased amount taken for wages will be distributed over all classes of workmen employed in the Naval Dockyards.

LOANS UNDER THE SMALL HOLDINGS ACT.
MR. LLOYD MORGAN (Carmarthen, W.): I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state the amount of money borrowed by county councils up to the end of 1898 from the Public Works Loan Commissioners for the purpose of advancing money under the provisions of the Small Holdings Act, 1892; and whether there are any cases of county councils having borrowed money for the purpose from any source other than from the Public Works Loan Commissioners?
THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD: County councils in England and Wales have been authorised to borrow up to the end of 1898, the amount being £9,150. and I understand the whole of this has been obtained from the Public Works Loan Commissioners.

RUNAWAY SLAVES AT MOMBASA.
SIR C. DILKE: On behalf of the honourable Member for the Middleton Division of Lancashire, I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, with reference to the case to which the attention of the Foreign Office was directed on the 31st August last—namely, the surrender, on 15th June last, to their former owner, one Sale he bin Hussein, of three slaves, named respectively Kazibeni, Kombo, and Mamekombo (a father, mother, and daughter), who had been resident for the previous 10 years at Ribe, whether his attention has been called to the decision of the Court at Mombasa, presided over by Mr. Edward Loyd, the Acting District Officer, which affirmed the legality of that surrender, and declared that the slaves had no plea wherewith to claim their freedom, as Ribe is within the Sultan's dominions, and that he was of opinion that they had always been in slavery, and ordered them to return to their master; what action the Government propose to take in this case, in view of the opinion of Mr. Attorney General, that a British subject taking any part in returning a. runaway slave to his master against his will is guilty of a breach of British law; whether he is aware that the daughter, having first been detained by her former owner, the presence of her father and mother at Mombasa, where the surrender was made, was due to a summons from the court, issued by a British official, but for which their freedom would not have been endangered; whether the missionaries in the districts of the East Africa Protectorate have intimated their determination to intercept all similar summonses for the future, and to do their utmost, regardless of the consequences to themselves, to protect the runaway slaves who take refuge at their missions; and whether he can explain why no reply, beyond a statement on 10th October that instructions for inquiry had been given, has been received from the Foreign Office since 31st August last?
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. ST. JOHN BRODRICK,): The Papers with respect to this case have now reached the Foreign Office.
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They have been delayed by the fact that when the Foreign Office inquiries reached Mombasa in November last Mr. Lloyd had been appointed to a station up country. There is considerable conflict of statement as to this case. As against the suggestions in the Question, Mr. Lloyd states that famine existed at, Ribe at the time, and that the three slaves were brought before him by their master solely to get a formal declaration of his right to their services in return for the subsistence he was willing to afford them, and that, although Mr. Lloyd closely questioned them as to whether they had any cause of complaint, they made no objection to returning, and would take no legal action to secure manumission. The opinion of the Attorney General applied to the detention of a slave by force, of which no question arose in this instance. It is believed that since the conclusion of the famine at Ribe these slaves have now left their master again. It is not known what action the missionaries propose to take, but Her Majesty's Government, having laid it down that British officials shall not take part in returning escaped slaves to their masters, see no reason for taking further action in this case.
MR. T. BAYLEY: When shall we have the Papers mentioned by the right honourable Gentleman?
[No Reply.]

INDIAN SECTION OF THE IMPERIAL INSTITUTE.
SIR MANCHERJEE BHOWNAG-GREE (Bethnal Green, N.E.): I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether, in the contemplated transfer of a part of the Imperial Institute to another body, such portions thereof are included as have been heretofore devoted to the purposes for which money grants have been made by the Government of India, and also such other parts of the Institute as have been built at the expense of donations received from India; and, if so, will he state if any and what measures are being adopted to reserve the portions in question for the special

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purposes for which they were originally intended or set apart?
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): In behalf of India, whence very liberal gifts were contributed to the Imperial Institute, I have taken steps to secure the objects contemplated in the honourable Member's Question. It has been arranged that, in the event of any transfer such as is suggested in the Question, the Imperial Institute buildings now devoted to Indian purposes, and the parts of the buildings constructed from Indian contributions, shall be reserved for Indian objects. I shall be happy to give to my honourable Friend, if he wishes it, a copy of a Memorandum showing the arrangement that has been made.

POSTMASTERS AND IRISH LOCAL GOVERNMENT.
MAJOR JAMESON (Clare, W.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether postmasters and sub-postmasters are eligible for election to the new county and district councils?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY TO THE LORD LIEUTENANT OF IRELAND (Mr. GERALD W. BALFOUR,): There is nothing in the Local Government Act disqualifying the officers named from being elected county or district councillors. This disqualification will depend on the regulations of the Post Office Service. As already stated by me, in answer to a Question of my honourable and gallant Friend the Member for North Armagh, I have been informed that it would be contrary to the regulations issued by the Postmaster-General for postmasters to take any part in such elections except to record their votes.
MR. MACALEESE (Monaghan, N.): I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland, could a sub-postmaster, if elected to the position of distinct councillor, legally take his seat and share in transacting the business of the Board?
THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON, Londonderry, N.): I have nothing to add to the reply just given by my right honourable Friend to the similar Question put to him by the honourable Member for West Clare.

CITY OF CORK BY-LAWS.
MR. W. JOHNSTON (Belfast, S.): I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the Local Government Board advised the town clerk of Cork that the by-laws of the old Corporation would remain in force till rescinded, but that the Mayor of Cork subsequently declared that all the old rules and by-laws were swept away by the Local Government Act; whether the council exceeded their powers by expending certain sums of money belonging to the ratepayers; whether he is aware that the town clerk was prevented from answering certain questions put to him by Sir John Scott, ex-Mayor of Cork, concerning the correspondence with the Local Government Board: and whether the Local Government Board will take any action in consequence of the conduct of the Cork Council?
MR. CREAN: Before that Question is answered, may I say that no intimation was given to me that it was to be put, and, as a portion of it referring to me is altogether inaccurate—
*MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The honourable Member is not entitled to comment on the Question.
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am informed that the town clerk of Cork stated that the by-laws of the old Corporation would remain in force till rescinded. This is provided for by Article 44 of the Application of Enactments Order in Council, dated the 22nd December last, and the Local Government Board did not address the Corporation on the subject. The statement made by the Mayor appears to have been to the effect quoted in the first paragraph. The Local Government

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Board have no knowledge of any proceedings of the nature indicated in the second paragraph. If, however, the council have exceeded their powers, their action will be subject to review by the auditor. The questions put to the town clerk by Sir John Scott were, it appears, for the purpose of testing the validity of the Mayor's ruling, which Sir John Scott contended was not in accordance with the Standing Orders. The town clerk obeyed the order of the Mayor as chairman, and did not answer Sir John Scott's interrogatories. The only action which it is competent for the Local Government Board to take in the matter is to inform Sir John Scott of the bearing of the new Act upon the points raised by him at the meeting of the Corporation.
MR. CREAN: May I make a personal explanation, Sir? The statement I made was not as suggested in the Question, but that the new Act kills the old Corporation, and any resolution of that body could be set aside by the new body constituted by the new Act. The resolution which we complained of as set aside—
MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! This hardly comes within the rule applying to personal explanations.
MR. FLYNN (Cork, N.): Have the Local Government Board, as a matter of law, any power whatever to interfere with the Corporation of Cork?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: None.

DEATH DUTIES.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the opportunity, which he understood on 9th February would shortly arise, has yet arisen for testing by the High Court the question whether the Finance Act, 1894, charges estate duty at the death of a life tenant of
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settled property when that life tenant has surrendered his life interest in such property within twelve months of his death; and, if so, when a decision of the question may be expected?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH, Bristol, W.): A case has arisen in which this question can be tested, and the matter will be brought before the High Court of Justice as soon as possible; but when a decision may be expected must depend on the state of business in the Court.
MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has given attention to the decision of the House of Lords in "Earl Cowley v. Commissioners of Inland Revenue," whereby it was decided that when the tenant for life and the remainderman have disentailed a settled estate, have then charged the estate with a mortgage debt, and have subsequently re-settled the estate, the Finance Act, 1894, does not charge estate duty upon the total principal value of the estate as passing on the death of the life tenant, but only upon what remains of that value after the mortgage debt has been deducted therefrom; whether any estate duty not charged by the Act has actually been demanded by and paid to the Commissioners of Inland Revenue in similar cases, through the refusal of the Commissioners to allow such mortgage debts to be deducted in such cases from the total principal value of the property passing; if so, whether he can state approximately in how many instances such duty has been exacted and paid in, and since, 1894; and whether, in all such cases, the duty so paid will now be returned?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I am not prepared to accept the first paragraph of the Question as a complete statement of the Cowley case, the circumstances of which were somewhat peculiar. Nor can I

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say how many cases there have been which involve the point decided in. it. It is believed, however, that the number of such cases is very small. If it is found that in any cases similar to that of Earl Cowley the duty has been paid without allowing for the deduction of the mortgage, the duty erroneously paid will be returned; but in very few, if any, instances has duty been actually paid in such cases.

INLAND REVENUE PROCEDURE IN SCOTLAND.
MR. THORBURN: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether, in determining the amount of stamp duty payable under an agreement transferring a business to a limited company, it is the case that the Board of Inland Revenue sitting in London insist upon the revenue officials in Edinburgh acting upon the decisions of the English courts, although such decisions conflict with decisions of the Court of Session; and whether instructions will now be given that, in dealing with matters in Scotland, the Inland Revenue authorities will give a full and fair effect to the decisions of the Scotch courts?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: There is no such general practice on the part of the Board of Inland Revenue as is suggested in the Question. The honourable Member probably has in his mind a recent case in which a decision of the Court of Session was quoted as not being in harmony with decisions of English courts in similar cases. The Scotch adviser of the Board, however, did not consider that the decision of the Court of Session was applicable in the circumstances of the particular case under inquiry, and the Board acted on his advice. I may add that no case is known in which the Board of Inland Revenue have overruled the advice of their Scotch solicitor where a point of Scotch law was involved.

TRAVELLING ALLOWANCES FOR INDIAN OFFICERS.
GENERAL RUSSELL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the messing on board ship for officers proceeding out to India on duty was formerly 2s. per diem, and for officers granted an indulgence passage 6s. 6d. per diem; will he explain why these charges have been raised to a uniform rate of 10s. per diem; and into whose pocket does the large profit go which must result from such a high charge?
THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. J. POWELL WILLIAMS, Birmingham, S.): Perhaps I may be allowed to answer this Question. There has been no change in the messing charges for officers proceeding out to India on duty. The rate is 2s. a day for officers on duty, and 6s. 6d. for officers granted indulgence passages.

INLAND REVENUE INQUIRIES.
MR. JOHN WILSON: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether ho is aware of district surveyors of Inland Revenue asking for returns of anticipated profits of income; and whether, considering the trouble and annoyance in giving such information, which can only be illusionary and unsatisfactory, he will see his way to stay this procedure?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The object of these inquiries is to obtain information on which to found the estimate of the Board of Inland Revenue of the produce of the income tax for the coming year. They are made in the month of March, by which time the result of the trading of the year ended 31st December preceding is generally known. They are not pressed on any persons who have any reluctance to answer them; but, as a rule, the information is willingly given, and is of much service to the Department.

IRISH GRAND JURIES.
MR. O'KEEFFE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, inasmuch as the fiscal powers of grand jurors have now ceased under the Local Government Act, if the high sheriffs of Irish counties are bound to observe any property qualification in summoning future grand jurors to discharge the duties of considering Bills on criminal indictment at assizes in Ireland?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No change whatever has been made in the position of grand juries so far as their relation to criminal business is concerned, nor does the Local Government Act affect in any way the obligation otherwise imposed upon high sheriffs, as to the qualifications of persons summoned to serve as grand jurors.

CLARE ISLAND LOCAL GOVERNMENT ELECTIONS.
DR. R. AMBROSE (Mayo, W.): J. beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that there are 137 county council electors in Clare Island; that the island is 17 miles from the mainland; and that it would be very difficult for them to come to the mainland, especially in bad weather, to record their votes; and, under the circumstances, will he use his influence to have a polling station situated at Clare Island for the convenience of the voters?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The facts are as stated in the first paragraph, except that the number of local government electors on Clare Island is, I am informed, 120. The question of the establishment of a polling station on the island has already formed the subject of communications between the Local Government Board and the returning officer, who states he is anxious to make arrangements to facilitate all persons as far as possible, but that he is not prepared to undertake the serious liability involved in carrying out the suggestion contained in the Question. Clare Island, for the purpose of these elections, is in precisely the same position as it is for Parliamentary elections. The returning officer points out that if a poll were arranged to be taken on the island, the
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election for the entire county electoral division might be invalidated should the presiding officer be unable, owing to bad weather, to reach the island either the day before, or on the day fixed for the poll.

VACCINATION EXEMPTION CERTIFICATES.
MR. LOGAN: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board if he proposes during the present Session to so amend section 2 of the Vaccination Act, 1898, as to prevent cases of an undue refusal by the magistrates to grant the certificates which are authorised by the Act?
THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD: The Government have already stated that they do not propose to introduce any legislation on that subject during the present Session.

IRISH LICENCE DUTIES.
MAJOR JAMESON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether the amount of duties collected from licensed traders in Ireland will be handed over to the local authorities of the different districts in which such duties are collected; if so, will he state the purposes to which such moneys will be applied by the local authorities?
MR. GERALD BALFOUR: At the request of my right honourable Friend the Secretary to the Treasury I will answer this Question. The manner of the application of the proceeds of the duties collected in Ireland by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue on the Local Taxation Licences specified in the third schedule to the Local Government (Ireland) Act, 1898, will be found in section 58 of the Act. Under subsection (1) of that section the equivalent of these duties will be annually paid out of the Consolidated Fund to the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account, and under sub-section (2) will be applied to certain local services specified in that subsection. The amount of payments made to the local authorities does not depend on the amount of the duties collected in their respective districts.

FINANCIAL AID TO EGYPT.
MR. SCOTT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will agree to the Motion for a Return as to financial aid given to Egypt which stands on the Paper this day.
MR. BRODRICK: The Return will be given, but I will ask the honourable Member to substitute for his Motion a form of words which I think will carry it out more completely.

THE MAHDI'S TOMB.
MR. SCOTT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he has yet received the Report which Lord Cromer was requested to furnish as to the statement that, on the day of the battle of Omdurman, the camp followers murdered and plundered wounded dervishes; whether he has received Lord Cromer's Report on the alleged dismemberment of the Mahdi's body before it was thrown into the Nile; and whether these Reports, when received, will be printed and issued to Members?
MR. BRODRICK: I will lay upon the Table to-day Papers containing Reports from Lord Cromer and Lord Kitchener on all these subjects.

THE "BRENDA."
MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if the Secretary for Scotland, in selecting a new commander for the Fishery Board cruiser "Brenda," will consider the desirability of giving preference to officers possessing an intimate knowledge of the northern coast of Scotland?
MR. GRAHAM MURRAY: In the event of any vacancies occurring amongst the officers commanding their cruisers, the Fishery Board will no doubt carefully consider the qualifications of those selected to take their places.

LOW FLASH PETROLEUM.
COLONEL DENNY: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department if he is aware that the Fire Brigade Committee of the London County Council have presented a Report to the Council drawing attention again, as they have on previous occasions, to the dangers arising from the use of low flash oil, and expressing their conviction that no oil should be sold in London the flash point of which is less than 100 degrees Abel close test; and whether he will take any action in the matter?
THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. COLLINGS,): I have seen the Report to which the honourable and gallant Member refers. As he is aware, the Government are preparing a Bill dealing with the question of petroleum.

TREATMENT OF INEBRIATES IN SCOTLAND.
COLONEL DENNY: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether it is the intention of the Government to establish a State Inebriate Reformatory in Scotland; and if any applications have been received for the establishment of certified reformatories?
MR. GRAHAM MURRAY: Her Majesty's Government propose to defer the expenditure required for the establishment in Scotland of a State Inebriate Reformatory until experience has been had of the operation of the new legislation and the permanent demand it is likely that such an institution will have to meet. The Secretary for Scotland has not as yet received any application for the establishment of certified inebriate reformatories.

PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS.
SIR C. CAMERON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether, for the convenience of Members, he would cause to be issued along with the weekly list of Public Bills now distributed, a list of all Codes or Orders lying upon the Table of

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the House from time to time, with the dates at which they were laid, and the date at which the period expires within which, unless otherwise determined by the House, they acquire the force of law?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): I am informed that there is circulated already a Parliamentary Paper which gives the list referred to in the Question, and apparently affords all the information the honourable Member desires.
SIR. C. CAMERONwas understood to say that it did not give it in the way he wished.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: If the honourable Member wants it in a different shape, perhaps he will give me a little more information, and then I will consider the Question.

"BOUNTY-FED" BUTTER
MR. O'KELLY (Roscommon, N.): I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that butter made in the United Kingdom is handicapped in the homo markets by the importation of colonial and foreign "bounty-fed" butter; and whether he will afford this home industry the protection of a countervailing duty on the same principle that he has consented to have applied to the importation of "bounty-fed" sugar into India?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I am not aware that there is any "bounty-fed" butter, as the honourable Member suggests.

BLOCKING NOTICES.
MR. J. LOWTHER: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is prepared to support some reasonable modification of the existing practice under which Motions of Urgency under Standing Order No. 17 can be ousted by a blocking notice, a condition of things which was described by himself upon 1st March
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18D7 as leaving the House bound and helpless before the will of one single and irresponsible individual?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: There is no reasonable proposal on this or any other subject which I am not ready to consider, but before I pronounce in favour of any scheme dealing with this matter, which would require a large amount of Parliamentary time to carry it into effect, I think my right honourable Friend should put his proposal in terms on the Paper.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I venture to ask the right honourable Gentleman when he proposes to take the Scotch Private Bill Procedure Bill, and to express the hope that it will not be either immediately before or immediately after the Recess. That would be very inconvenient to Scotch Members, who have a long journey to take at this inclement season of the year.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I recently suggested, as the House will remember, that that Bill might be taken on Tuesday before we separate, but I am quite ready to meet the right honourable Gentleman so far as to put it down on Monday. I would endeavour to meet the general views of the House by putting down nothing for Tuesday, except the Motion for the Adjournment, and I shall take the Question that the Speaker do leave the Chair on the Civil Service Estimates either on the first Monday or the first Friday after we meet.

THE BUDGET.
SIR H. FOWLER (Wolverhampton, E.): Has any day been fixed for the Budget?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I hope it will be taken on the first Thursday after we return, but that must not be taken as a pledge.
SIR C. DILKE: In the event of Report of Supply being concluded, and the

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Consolidated Fund Bill introduced tonight, will it be the first Order to-morrow?
THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: Yes, Sir.

ORDERS OF THE DAT.

  LONDON GOVERNMENT BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That the Bill be now read a second time."
  Amendment proposed—
  "To leave out from the word 'That' to the end of the Question, in order to add the words ' no Bill dealing with the local government of the metropolis will be satisfactory which, while disturbing the existing system, fails to simplify and complete it, and which at the same time renders more difficult the attainment of the unity of London.'"—(Mr. H. Gladstone.)
  MR. H. GLADSTONE (Leeds, W.): I rise to move the Amendment which stands in my name. The Amendment embodies a principle which is inconsistent, in my judgment, with the Bill. That principle is the unity of London. We who oppose the Bill hold that, excepting in size, London is in no way distinct from other great cities. While it is necessary to adapt the organisation of its government to the vastness of its population, the structure of that organisation should consist of one central authority for the whole metropolis, and subordinate councils amply equipped for the management of local concerns. We stand by the principle of the unity of London, which we hold to be directly challenged by the Bill. The whole scheme and tendency of the Bill is to weaken the central authority, and to set up under the name and guise of municipal boroughs a number of parishes named in the Bill, and arbitrarily selected on no settled plan, and several others which are to be subsequently fashioned by an authority practically independent of Parliament. I am afraid I must trouble the House, although I will do so as briefly as possible, with a little of the history of this movement. The weight of authority, as shown by the history
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  of the past 60 years, is against the policy set forth in the Bill. The Commission of 1834 found that the paramount defect of the corporations of England and Wales was that corporate bodies existed independently of the communities among which they were found, and they did not except the City. Three years later, when dealing with the City itself, the Commissioners were unable to discover any circumstances justifying the distinction of the small area within the municipal boundary from the rest, except that it was and had been so distinguished. The Commission thought that the City should be transformed into a great municipality of all London. That was the opinion of Lord John Russell, but the opinion of the City was so strong that nothing was done. Then we come to the Commission of 1854. That Commission made two recommendations. In the first place they said—
  "If an attempt were made to give a municipal organisation to the entire metropolis by a wider extension of the boundaries of the City, the utility of the present corporation, as an institution suited to its limited area, would be destroyed."
  So it seemed to that Commission that the virtues of the City were such that they could not be extended beyond the limited area of its own authority. In the second place they found that it would be desirable to set up seven independent municipal authorities. Now, Sir, it is significant that these recommendations were ignored by the Government in 1855. They were made practically at the instance of the City, and were founded principally upon the evidence of the Lord Mayor himself. The Government, ignoring the Commission, passed the Metropolis Management Act of 1855, and for the first time we find the germ of the unity of London in the setting up of the Metropolitan Board of Works and the Commissioners of Sewers. In the second place, the Government, rejecting the seven independent municipalities, set up the 37 vestries and district boards which have existed down to the present time as the subordinate local authorities. Now, Sir, what has been the tendency since 1855? For 40 years the tendency has been to add powers to the central authority. The need for a strong central authority was evidently apparent to the Committee of 1861, which sat to consider metropolitan local taxation.

  1577
  They advised that members of this central body should be directly elected by the ratepayers of the whole metropolis. Then, Sir, we come to the Bill for the better government of London in 1884, and it is interesting to remember that two distinguished members of the present Cabinet were members of the Cabinet which produced that Bill, a Bill which indicates the high-water mark of unification. In 1885 we find the City approaching the present Lord Cross, who was then Home Secretary, and pressing its views upon him. Those views apparently were not accepted, because in 1888 we had the Bill of the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade. Now, Sir, I must quote his words when introducing that Bill. He said—
  "We do not put this Bill forward as a complete settlement of the great problem of London government. We have our own proposals to make. They are on the lines, not of creating separate municipalities throughout London, but of amalgamating within certain defined areas in London existing vestries and district boards, and constructing in London district councils, having, in the various areas in the county, district councils with large and improved administrative functions."
  Now, Sir, it is interesting also to notice that the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, speaking in a Debate on the Bill, said—
  "If I were able to place my own draft side by side with the present Bill, I think it would be found that in the main principles there was an entire agreement. No doubt there are notable differences on some rather important points of detail, but I am not perfectly certain that the advantage is always on the side of my draft."
  Very well, Sir, it is quite clear that right honourable and honourable Gentlemen opposite were in absolute agreement that the local government of London should be settled on the basis, first, of a strong central authority directly elected by the ratepayers, and, secondly, of district councils and municipalities. The right honourable Gentleman expressly declared then that they were not to be municipalities, but that they were to be strictly subordinate local authorities. Now, Sir, the Opposition at that time, as is admitted by the right honourable Gentleman opposite, gave a frank support on the whole to that Bill. It was not all that they wished for. The City
  1578
  was absolutely excluded. No Bill which excludes the City from it3 operations can be satisfactory to most of my honourable Friends on this side of the House; but apart from that, we recognised that the Bill of the right honourable Gentleman worked in the direction of the unity of London, and, as such, we gave it our hearty support. Now, Sir, since 1888 there has been one Inquiry, namely, the Royal Commission of 1894. That Commission issued a Report, which was brief, lucid, and incontrovertible. It represents the basis on which the ultimate settlement of London government must be made, which has been absolutely ignored by the Government in drafting this Bill. Well, Sir, that, in brief, is the history which is necessary for my purpose, but the whole of it points to the necessity of having one paramount authority over the whole of London, and of the delegation of a mass of important work—all that can properly be separated from the central government—to local authorities, with ample powers for dealing with their own affairs, subordinate to the central authority in all matters touching the higher interests of the metropolis. Now, Sir, I want to deal with this change of view on the part of right honourable and honourable Gentlemen opposite. Since 1888 efforts have been made to revert to the policy recommended by the Commission of 1854, but ignored by the Government of the day. What is the reason of this change of policy? I suspect that the reason is to be found in the City. What is known as "tenification" sprang from the City, and it became after 1888 a commonplace on the political platforms of honourable Gentlemen opposite. Well, this Bill is the outcome of it. Now, what is the explanation of the change? The right honourable Gentleman the Leader of the House did not utter a word in explanation of the change. Why has he gone back from the teaching of experience and from the Debates of 1888, and why has he wholly and entirely ignored the Report of the Commission of 1894? Has he all of a sudden so fallen in love with the municipal system that he must have 25 corporations in London instead of one, or does this change spring from antipathy to the London County Council? I ask the Government for their authority for this proposal. On what Report of Commission or Committee do they base

  1579
  it? Where is their mandate? Sir, I think, in the light of previous utterances, we are entitled to know. Now, Sir, in 1888 the Government gave us a distinct pledge that when the nest Bill dealing with London government, designed to complete the Bill of 1888, was brought in, they would consult the London County Council. For this is what happened. Mr. Firth put down a new clause giving power to the London County Council to submit a scheme to rearrange municipal government, after it-was created by the Act of 1888, and the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade, replying to Mr. Stansfeld, said—
  "He did not think that the right honourable Gentleman would wish him to go further than to say when once this body was set up it would be impossible not to give full consideration to the representations which they might make."
  Why have they not asked the County Council to make representations? If you said so in 1888, why don't you say so this year? The Government does not seem to have approached the County Council in any way to learn its views, so far as I know, and it has hurried forward the Second Reading of this Bill before it has been physically possible—[Ministerial cries of "Oh, oh!"]—I repeat, physically possible for the London County Council to follow all the ramifications of this most complicated Measure, and to report fully and clearly upon it. Now, Sir, I suppose that this change of policy, which I hope will be explained in the course of the Debate, is due to two considerations. It is due to the fact that the Government have felt that the constitution of the present central authority for London represented the principle of the unity of London government, and in the second place it is due to the fact that the City desire to run on lines against any change in the realisation of -that principle. The right honourable Gentleman the Member for Bodmin, referring to the City of London, said—
  "Some day the City of London would have to be touched, and when it was touched the Conservative Members of the future would wonder at the reasons which had led to the maintenance of this anomalous institution."
  I am glad to see that "The Times" itself seemed to approve of the right hon-
  1580
  ourable Gentleman's language, because, commenting on his speech, it said—
  "Upon the whole, Mr. Courtney, in the light of his experience on the Royal Commission, has probably summed up the matter with considerable accuracy."
  Now, Sir, for my part, I should like to know how long this stolid in difference on the part of the City is to last? How long will it be content to remain a mere speck in the administrative county of London, luxuriating in its enormous wealth, unburdened, unbalanced, uninspired by any responsible discharge of duties in the least degree adequate to its position? How long will it be content to occupy that position, which every day becomes more of a reproach and an anomaly, neglecting each successive opportunity of once more becoming the great and vitalising centre of the greatest metropolis of the world? I desire to emphasise that change of policy, although that change of policy is not so great as at one time appeared. This Bill is not "tenification," because it proposes to set up, I suppose, at least 20 boroughs instead of 10, but it does make the attainment of the unity of London more difficult. The County Council elections of 1898 imposed a somewhat awkward difficulty on Her Majesty's Government. There was a remarkable change in their attitude after those elections, which resulted in a decisive expression of opinion by London on the question of London government, and practically on no other. That led you to mask your batteries. You have abandoned warfare in the open, but I think it can be shown that your opinions are unchanged. Now, Sir, this Bill depends, to a very considerable extent, on the standpoint from which it is regarded, and, so far as I am concerned, if there were any reason to believe that we had a chance of securing necessary and adequate Amendments, I, for one, and I think I express the views of my right honourable Friends also, would not be responsible for moving an Amendment hostile to the Second Reading of the Bill. But we know that the Government are welded to several of its most objectionable provisions. We are numerically weak, we know we will be out-voted, we know we may be closured as we were on the Education Bill in

  1581
  1897, and we prefer, under those circumstances, to have no Bill at all. The Government cannot complain of that. The Bill scarcely settles anything. It leaves to other authorities in the future the carrying out of a large part of its proposals. It puts immense responsibility on the Local Government Board and the Privy Council, and the subsequent arrangements to be made by these authorities are practically removed from the authority of Parliament. There are no instructions even set out in the Bill to the Boundary Commissioners: still less do we know who they are to be. What did the House of Lords and the Conservative Party do in 1885? They hung up the Franchise Bill, and refused to allow the Government of the day to pass it. They did that because they said, without a Redistribution Bill they could not deal with the principle of the Franchise Bill, and they said we were taking a leap in the dark. On that ground they absolutely refused, through their majority in the House of Lords, to let the Franchise Bill pass. Honourable Members cannot complain if we turn this argument against them now. This Bill is a leap in the dark, and we have nothing to expect from the House of Lords. Therefore, that is a reason for moving this Amendment-There is another point to which I will refer before I deal with the Bill itself. I remember the argument honourable Members opposite used with regard to the Home Rule Bills of 1886 and 1893. They told us repeatedly they must examine into the motives of the promoters of those Bills, and by that analysis of motives they would form an idea of how the Bills would be used if passed into law. They made their analysis, and we all know how they gave effect to it. We claim that right now. We claim the right to examine into the motives of honourable Members opposite. We believe the main object of this Bill is to weaken and discredit the central authority of London. What is the evidence? I am only going to briefly refer to it. We all remember Lord Salisbury's speech at the Albert Hall, when he gave advice to the Moderates. What was that advice? He said—
  "I earnestly hope that it will be entertained by the County Council—though perhaps it may have a suicidal course to recommend it—in a wise, patriotic, and enlightened spirit, and I
  1582
  earnestly hope that our friends will do their best, even at some inconvenience, to furnish, at this or the next election, a sufficient number of candidates to enable this matter to be impartially considered."
  Lord Salisbury advised a policy of enlightened suicide to the County Council. We all know that the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Birmingham went down to Limehouse and Camberwell, and made very long and excellent speeches from the opposite point of view on the question of London government, and put forward, with all the force at his disposal, the advisability of building up independent municipalities in London. He pointed out particularly to Camberwell the advantages of these municipalities, but I think Limehouse and Camberwell rejected the right honourable Gentleman's advice, and showed how absolutely they disregarded it by returning Progressives at the head of the poll. We have it from the speeches of the Prime Minister and the right honourable Gentleman what their views are on this Bill. We have also the evidence of the attack on the London County Council in the County Council elections of March in last year. The whole official force of the Conservative Party was turned on during those elections. I believe every Cabinet Minister made speeches in various parts of London. Well, Sir, the County Council won all along the line.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): Did we make speeches against the London County Council?
  MR. H. GLADSTONE: My opinion is that you did. It is a fair construction to put on those speeches that they involved a most emphatic attack on the County Council. After the defeat, of the Moderates and the policy of setting up independent municipal boroughs in London, there was a discreet silence among honourable Gentlemen opposite for a considerable period, but that silence was broken by the Prime Minister, who reaffirmed at Westminster his Albert Hall speech, and said he had nothing to change in it, as it expressed his views very clearly, and he proposed to facilitate the granting of municipalities to communities which obviously in size and importance were

  1583
  designed for them. That is the proposal of this Bill. What is really intended with regard to the future of these bodies? Are they to be set up under the provisions of this Bill, and then left as they are, with the powers to be given to them by the Bill? Now, we have plenty of evidence to show that the design of the Government and of honourable Gentlemen opposite [is to arm these bodies with much fuller powers in future. Let me quote Lord Onslow's letter to the Westminster Vestry. He stated, and he spoke with knowledge, and he says—
  "It certainly was not that the Government intended by future legislation to transfer further powers from the London County Council to the new municipal boroughs, but that Parliament, when satisfied that they are competent, would no doubt from time to time entrust other and further powers to those municipal boroughs, and that in time the metropolitan boroughs would take rank with their great sister municipalities already existing in the provinces."
  [Ministerial cheers.] I am obliged to honourable Gentlemen for cheering that, because it is perfectly clear, if the words of Lord Onslow are true, that if these municipal bodies are to be brought up to the level of Birmingham, Leeds, and Manchester, that the London County Council will be stripped of all the powers it has got. If you do not take powers from the London County Council, where are you to get them from? You may get them from gas and water companies, but if you take them from gas and water companies, you are giving to these local bodies powers which ought certainly to belong to the central authority, and, in any case, you are defrauding the central authority of powers it ought to have. The intentions of the Government are clear. If these municipalities are to be set up and developed, as the cheer3 of honourable Gentlemen opposite show clearly is their intention, it is perfectly obvious it means the destruction of the central authority. We, therefore, suspect the drift of this Bill, and we are forced, by the evidence before us, taken in conjunction with the character and provisions of the Bill, to oppose its Second Beading. Now, I will proceed to state my main objections to the Bill, and I will summarise them under four heads—(1) The Bill sets up in an imperfect manner independent
  1584
  bodies—municipalities only in name—with a ruthless disregard to local feeling, historic boundaries, and the general well-being of the metropolis; (2) it seriously impairs the central governing authority of London, and endangers its future powers for practical good; (3) it proceeds on. the faulty and mischievous principle of throwing all responsibility for numberless difficulties on the Local Government Board and Privy Council, and leaving every kind of important question to be settled by Provisional Order, or by scheme; and (4) in defiance of the Royal Commission of 1894, and of the decisive opinion expressed by London in March 1898, the Bill reverses the policy of the Conservative Government in 1888, thus inevitably compromising the whole municipal life of the metropolis by forcing into the political arena large questions relating to the whole form and constitution of London government. I will take those points seriatim. We agree that London should be divided into local administrative areas, and that the power of the central authority should be limited to those objects common to the whole of the metropolis. We desire to effect this as recommended by the Royal Commission of 1894. It said—
  "London, we repeat, is one large town, which, for convenience of administration as well as from local diversities, comprises within itself several smaller towns, and the application of the principles, and still more of the machinery, of municipal government to these several areas must be limited by conditions arising from this fact—that is to say, the fact that London is one large town."
  We wish to see the efficiency of the present local bodies extended, and to increase as far as possible, both in form and substance, the dignity of their administration? We have no objection to that, and I speak, at any rate, for some of my honourable Friends. We support the intention of the Royal Commission, that these authorities should consist of mayors and district councillors. But this Bill sets up in the fullest panoply in a certain area a form of municipal government. It provides for a full accompaniment of aldermen. Even in the draft Westminster Bill it was not proposed to have aldermen. Aldermen certainly are not wanted on these councils, and I speak with some impartiality, because I am an alderman myself,

  1585
  though perhaps not a very useful one. While I agree that aldermen perform a very useful function on the County Council, I cannot see why London is to have 500 aldermen set up and clothed by this Bill. I suppose they will wear the usual robes, as in provincial boroughs. You cannot invest with the full authority attaching to the great provincial centres districts of London which are merely, and must in the nature of the case be, parts of the whole. They are in their composition divisions of London, and are in every way analogous to the wards of a great provincial town. You propose to set up these municipal authorities with the full dignity of municipal corporations, while they will only possess, and must only possess, the most partial powers. They will not have the police, main drains, gas, water, or tramways. An honourable Member says they will have the tramways. I was under the impression that the tramways were under the authority of the County Council, but, perhaps, the honourable Gentleman knows better. They will not have the parks, or the fire brigade, and they will be debarred from considering all the higher matters which belong to the metropolis as a whole. They will not, in fact, exercise 50 per cent. of the power and authority now exercised by the great municipalities in the provinces. The best illustration I have seen of the Bill was contained in a sentence in a speech of a gentleman who said that the Government were cutting off the legs and arms of a man in order to make a man of each part. Now, I come to the powers to be given to these councils. First of all, I wish to deal with the question of audit. Why have the Government determined to continue the system of elected auditors—a system which has been found to be full of danger and mischief. Other municipalities, I am aware, have that system, but I do not think the right honourable Gentleman will say that it is a system which has worked well in London. If the right honourable Gentleman would say that I would pay great attention to the opinion of such an authority, but he does not make that assertion. It would be far better to have a Local Government Board audit than the proposal in the Bill. The right honourable Gentleman says there is no proposal in the Bill,
  1586
  but am I not right in assuming that under the Bill the audit authority will be elective. Why is it not possible to follow the precedent of Imperial finance? The change brought about in the auditing of Imperial finance has, as every one knows, worked exceedingly well. What is it? We have an Auditor-General, who is absolutely independent of Government authority. He reports direct to Parliament, and Parliament appoints its Public Accounts Committee. That Committee considers the report of the Auditor-General, and it has the power to call before it any official in the Government whose evidence it thinks necessary to explain any doubtful transaction. That system has undoubtedly worked with most excellent results in the public departments of the Government. Why cannot it be applied to London finance? The right honourable Gentleman says that the system of elected auditors is in force in all our provincial municipalities. But what do we find in London? The County Council, the School Board, boards of guardians, and the Metropolitan Asylums Board have all a Local Government Board audit. I would sooner have that than the audit proposed by the Bill. But why is it necessary to be always throwing important matters relating to the administration of localities on to the shoulders of the Local Government Board? It is a wrong system. Why should it not be possible to set up a central audit board for London, presided over by an official appointed by the Government, who should consider the accounts of all the London authorities, and embody those accounts in a report to be presented to Parliament? I consider if that were done you would have a most perfect public audit for London, and it would give a great stimulus to local administration and would lead to greater efficiency and economy in the conduct of business on the part of the local authorities. Clause 2 of the Bill provides that overseers shall be appointed by the boroughs. That is a good provision as Tar as it goes. But why does not the Government transfer the whole of the duties of the overseers to the borough councils? The Bill, as it stands, involves a great injustice to some of the existing authorities. For example, there is Shoreditch, which has the power of managing the business

  1587
  usually transacted by overseers. But under the Bill that power will be removed, and handed over to the overseers, who will, I suppose, be a body of officials with separate establishments. I do not understand the reason for this proposal, which, it seems to me, will not simplify the present system, and will, by the duplication of offices, increase the cost of administration. Then I come to the question of assessment. The assessment committees, under clause 13, instead of being appointed by the guardians will be appointed partly by the guardians and partly by the borough councils. I believe everyone will admit that one uniform system of assessment is a great necessity in London, and there appears to be no attempt to achieve this in the Bill. There is no machinery, as a matter of fact, for ensuring uniform action in the assessment of the various burghs, although 10 per cent. of the aggregate rates of London find their way to a common account. The Bill is wholly unsatisfactory in the matter of assessment. Then, why does not the Bill deal with the Poor Law administration of London. This is a very large question, which, no doubt, will be amply enlarged upon in the course of the Debate. The Government are evidently desirous of giving large powers to these local authorities, and as they are limited in the powers they can give, why have they not turned their attention to the question of Poor Law administration, and brought in a Bill giving poor law powers to the local authorities. Then there is the question of annual elections. London is to be disturbed every year by elections to these municipal bodies. Everyone knows that it is a very difficult thing to interest any city in continual local elections, and perhaps it is more difficult to interest London than any other city in the country. Why are Londoners to be harassed by having these local elections every year? The Local Government Act gave the option to boards of guardians to choose between annual and triennial elections, and it gave power to the county councils to meet their wishes in that respect. Every board of guardians has exercised its option in favour of triennial elections. Experience is all in favour of triennial elections, and I cannot see why London is to be burdened by this annual disturb-
  1588
  ance. I have spoken about a considerable number of important details, and I will not say any more about them, because many of my honourable Friends can speak on them with infinitely more knowledge and authority than I can. But I must call attention to one more point. That is that the Government, in carrying out the policy of ignoring the Report of the Commission of 1894, have not adopted a most admirable suggestion of the Commission, namely, that the members of the central authority should be ex-officio members of the particular council which represents the constituency for which they sit. That proposal would bring the central authority and the municipal councils into touch with each other, and I fail to see any objection to it. Now, Sir, several of the points which. I have indicated can undoubtedly be remedied in Committee, but the chief defect cannot be made good. You can never invest these municipalities with the full powers and dignity of the great provincial boroughs. The deficiency in that respect comes out in sharpest relief in the case of the Greater Westminster which the Bill proposes to constitute. Because the more important your municipal body the more incongruous appears the emasculated powers which you propose to give to it. Now, Greater Westminster has a population of 200,000, with a rateable value of five millions. It is to be composed of four vestries and one district board, rolled into one. It is to have the whole pageantry of a corporation, with its officials, but with only a part of the powers usually attached to municipal boroughs. Now, what is the reason for Greater Westminster? What has it done to be thus set up as a great municipal borough? The right honourable Gentleman the Leader of the House said that Westminster has played a great part in English history. But what part of Westminster? The House of Commons or the House of Lords? I can understand their playing a great part in English history. But does my right honourable Friend mean to say that the Westminster Vestry has played a great part in English history? Now, I was interested to get a Report of the petition which shows the grounds on which the Westminster Vestry base themselves in asking Parliament to confer upon them this enormous power and prestige. What does the Vestry say?

  1589
  I will quote a paragraph from the petition—
  "Your petitioners humbly submit that such an area, comprising within its ample circuit the Royal and national sanctuary which has for centuries enshrined the various memories of your Majesty's august ancestors and the other manifold glories of Her free and famous Kingdom, the Royal Palaces, the Houses of Parliament, the offices of the several Departments of Her Majesty's Government, the (Supreme Courts of Law, the Royal Parks, the Albert Memorial, the Imperial Institute, many of the museums and other centres of science and art, and the abodes of many of the great men who have helped to make the name of England famous; an area which has enjoyed the distinction of having been represented in Parliament by some of England's greatest statesmen"
  —you observe that that is in the past, not in the present—
  "an area instinct with imperishable memories of more than eight centuries; an area the influence of which is acknowledged throughout the civilised world—is entitled to the recognition proposed by the said Bill to be accorded to it."
  I say a more grotesque claim for a charter of incorporation I never read in my life. Sir, I do not deny—I am the last man to deny—the great associations which centre in and around Westminster. But these associations are the property of the nation, and they do not constitute any valid reason for bestowing upon Lord Onslow and his vestry she dignity of a great municipal corporation. Sir, it is the pride of Liverpool, of Birmingham, of Leeds, and of Manchester that these great towns have been built up by the energy, the enterprise, and the self sacrifices of the inhabitants. Each town has its own history—a history which belongs to the inhabitants; and the inhabitants know that the greatness of this city is due to the energy of themselves and their forefathers. Each of these great provincial municipalities contains within its boundaries all classes and all sorts and conditions of men. It has the rich and the poor. It has the employed and the employer. It has its own manufacturing, its industrial, and its residential quarters. It has its own municipal buildings, which it has created. It has its own municipal institutions, of which it is proud. Everything which it has got it owes to the energy and enterprise of its own inhabitants. Each city is a
  1590
  perfect and complete structure of social life and municipal enterprise. And all these conditions, I say, are wanting in this Westminster. Why, Sir, a great city like Birmingham or Leeds keeps its workmen within its boundaries; Westminster gets rid of them. Westminster gets rid of them it is true, but the poorer districts of London have to provide for then. Sir, the chief glories of Westminster belong either to the nation or they are common to all the Empire. All the authority of the Empire centres in this proposed area. The places of amusement, recreation, and the picture galleries, and everything which people swarm to see from all parts of the world —all these must be brought, forsooth, into the area destined to the honour and glory of Lord Onslow and his Westminster Vestry. I am glad the honourable Member for Westminster laughs, and I have no doubt that he will have full opportunity of explaining the paragraph which I have had the honour to submit to this House. The right honourable Gentleman says he is going to reconstitute the City of Westminster. Reconstitute it to what? I do not know what the right honourable Gentleman had in his mind. I do not know to what he refers. The City of Westminster is merely a name. It has never had any corporate municipal existence. It has not a shred of municipal tradition. I quite agree that the Westminster Vestry is a most excellent body; I do not wish to say one word against it. I believe it has very high merit as an administrative body. But to set it up and extend it in the manner proposed by the Bill is another thing. I say that Westminster owes little or nothing of its enormous advantages to its own inhabitants. Sir, there is a great improvement going on in its area. The Government is spending millions of money in the improvement of Parliament Street and neighbourhood, and intends to adorn it with magnificent buildings. Westminster Vestry had no hand in that. Why, I had the honour of initiating that scheme, but they have not asked me to support their petition. The improvement of the thoroughfares of Westminster and its grand public buildings are due partly to the work of the central authority, and carried out by a general rate, and therefore belong to the whole of London. Take, for instance, the Embank-

  1591
  ment—a large section of which will come into the Greater Westminster area. Or the improvements which have been set up by the Government and paid for by the Government. But all these things will add to the honour and glory of Westminster Vestry. I should like to know why the Westminster Vestry should have a practical monopoly of these things. I sincerely hope that this preposterous municipality will not be set up by this Bill. I pass to the question of areas. There are fifteen areas in the Bill; the remainder are left to a somewhat dark and uncertain future. Our only guidance is in the sub-section of clause 1, which states that the qualification for a borough is a rateable value of not less than £500,000, or a population of between 100,000 and 400,000. Now, I fail to understand on what principle the Government has proceeded in this matter. It has not adopted the Report of the Royal Commission. The Royal Commission specified the number of areas which are perfectly fit at once to be created into district councils. They mentioned St. George's, Westminster, and St. Margaret's coupled together, but these are found in the Bill as a part only of the Greater Westminster. They mentioned Shoreditch and Whitechapel, but these do not appear in the Bill at all. But you do find in the Bill areas not recommended by the Royal Commission, such as Battersea, Camberwell, Lewisham, and Wandsworth. Now, why does not the Government include parishes like Greenwich, Deptford, Woolwich, Whitechapel, Newington, Shoreditch, which are here omitted and left to the tender mercies of the Boundary Committee? There is no principle in the Measure. There seems to be no principle either in regard to the areas which are put in the Bill or in regard to those that are left out. Why should you force St. George's, St. James's, St. Martin's and the Strand into a union with Westminster, which they detest?
  HONOURABLE MEMBERS: Oh, oh!
  MR. H. GLADSTONE: They seem to detest it, and they say so. I saw a communication from one of these aggrieved vestries bitterly complaining of the proposal to include them in Westminster. Why should these parishes be combined?
  1592
  There is no unity of administration between these different areas which this Bill proposes to merge in Greater Westminster. I am aware they are combined for school board purposes, but I also know that they conduct the school board elections with different bodies of electors, with different officials, and with different organisations. In these respects they are all separate one from the other. There is nothing in common between these areas which you propose to join in one. Let us come to Wandsworth. I should like to know from the Government why they set up this huge and unwieldy Wandsworth as a municipal borough. It is not in the centre of London, but in the suburbs. It includes Streatham, Clapham, Tooting, Putney, and Wimbledon, with a total area of 10,000 acres—a most unmanageable size for administrative purposes. Chelsea has only 794 acres. In fact, this proposed district of Wandsworth will be in extent 3,000 acres larger than any other area proposed in the Bill, and double the size of most of them. I really cannot see why the Government propose to set up this great Wandsworth, which is not only unmanageable for municipal purposes, but is a district which is rapidly filling up, and the population is rapidly expanding. In a very short time it will be found that the population is out of all proportion—if we except Westminster—to that of the other bodies to be set up in other parts of London. I am wrong. Westminster is to have a population of only 200,000, while that of Wandsworth is likely to exceed that number before many years are over. Why do you keep wholesome local administration alive in one place and abolish it in another? Why are the rich districts joined together in the Schedule of the Bill, and why are the poor districts almost wholly ignored? I am aware that one of the poorest districts appears in the schedule—namely, Poplar; but the great majority of the poor districts are left to shift for themselves. I do not know why it is so, and I say that the provisions of the Bill in regard to these areas are most unsatisfactory. I come now to the proposal in regard to the Boundary Commission that is to be appointed. I agree that it will be necessary to have a Boundary Commission. That is clear. But the Commission ought to be ap-

  1593
  pointed upon distinct principles and conditions. The names of the Commissioners ought to be in the Bill, and they should be instructed, in considering the question of areas, to bear in mind local traditions, local feeling, administrative efficiency, and the present boundaries of existing areas. But, above all this, provision ought to be made in the Bill that any result arrived at by the Boundary Commissioners should be submitted to Parliament before it passes into law. And now I pass to my second point, the interference by the Bill with the efficiency of this Central Authority. I say that the Central Authority ought to have power over the general finance of London, to watch it, and to keep it within bounds, in the interest of London as a whole. Under the Bill it is proposed to transfer the power for sanctioning loans required by the subordinate councils from the London County Council to the Local Government Board. What is the authority for that proposal? I cannot arrive at it myself. I have never heard that the London County Council had erred on this question of finance. They have had the most eminent men to watch over it—the honourable Member for West London, Lord Farrer, Lord Welby, Lord Lincoln—the greatest financial experts in the country. I fail to know why this attack has been made on their use of the power of sanctioning loans to the local authorities. I believe that that power has worked with great, success and advantage to the local authorities. The local authorities have been able to borrow cheaply and quickly, and I think I am right in saying that they have never asked that this power should be transferred from the London County Council to the Local Government Board. I want to know on what ground this transfer is to be made. One objection, amongst others, to the present proposal is, that it will give the local authorities power to mortgage their rates, and to impair the borrowing powers of the London County Council itself. Why should not the London County Council remain as it is, with power to appropriate and consent to these loans? I think the proposed transfer involves distinctly the impairment of the powers of the Central Authority. I come to the question of the equalisation of rates. You are setting up by this Bill a Greater
  1594
  Westminster, with its enormous rateable value of l–7th of the rateable value of the whole metropolis, and are going to give it a preponderating power. There are great inequalities at the present time in regard to the rates of different governing areas in London. For instance, in St. James's parish you have a rate of 8s. 7d. in the pound. I should like the House to remember the past, and that equalisation of rates is not a modern cry of fanatical County Councillors, but is suggested by every consideration of justice. The Committee of 1866 appointed to consider Metropolitan local government reported that so heavy had the charges for local taxation become that in the less wealthy districts of the metropolis it had become an intolerable burden, and that the direct taxation of property there had reached its utmost limits. What was the state of things at the date of the sitting of the Committee? Improvements had been carried out in the western part of the metropolis by means of general rates, at a cost of £4,371,000. And further improvements were to be at once taken in hand at a. cost of £663,000. Against that sum of five millions spent in the improvement of the Metropolitan district. on the Eastern part of London the humble sum of £329,000 was spent. That shows that there is a great inequality to be redressed. You have had the Act of 1894, and undoubtedly there will be further schemes brought forward in the municipal future. I ask the House, 1s it wise, therefore, to set up a body like the Greater Westminster, with its enormous rateable value, which is l–7th of the rateable value of the metropolis? Such a body will be tempted to throw every difficulty in the way of proposals which are intended for the just benefit of the poorer parts of London. That is one of the greatest and most imminent dangers attaching to this Greater Westminster. At any rate, this subject does involve some distinct modification of the present central authority. I come to clause 6, which proposes to give power to the Committee of the Privy Council to transfer the provisions of the Buildings Act from the London County Council to the local authorities. The local authorities have not asked for that power. The Act of 1894, with its 218 clauses, was long and carefully considered

  1595
  by a Hybrid Committee, and after the fullest consideration its powers were given to the London County Council. Why does the Government override the Committee of this House? Why does it override the action of the Government of that time? It does seem to me that what is required is uniformity in this matter, uniformity to be provided for by one central authority. There is the question of street frontages and of the height and structure of buildings in different localities. These are matters of vital importance, and you will throw them into the greatest confusion if you transfer these powers from the central authority to the subordinate authorities. A builder might come to erect a block of houses on an area controlled by two different authorities, one half of the block being in one subordinate municipality, and the other half in another; and the builder would have to evoke the sanction of both for his operations. This clause is a most mischievous clause; it takes away from the central authority power which it is absolutely necessary for it to have. Then there are the Parliamentary powers, which are to be given by clause 7 to the local authorities. I have been told that the Moderate members of the London County Council have protested against these powers being given even to the London County Council itself. Why then, does the Government propose to entrust such powers, which ought not to have been entrusted to the central authority, to no less than 20 or 25 other bodies in London? It seems to mo a thoroughly bad proposal which, if carried out, will produce chaotic confusion and heavy and unnecessary expense. At the present moment when local bodies want something they go to the London County Council, and that council includes what they want, if it be necessary, in a General Powers Bill, and the matter is put through Parliament at a minimum of expense. Under this clause of the Bill each locality will have the power of promoting a Bill on its own account, and there will be no limit to the number of separate and conflicting Bills. There again, you are seriously impairing the duties and responsibilities of the Central authority. Then there is the transfer of powers from the London County Council to the subordinate councils. There is no reason why powers should not be transferred from the County
  1596
  Council when it is deemed necessary and right; but the proper method of doing that is through Parliament. Let the London County Council bring in a Bill for the purpose, and Parliament, if it sees wise, will transfer the powers. This Bill sets up an automatic process by which once the London Comity Council part with power to one body, every borough in the metropolis can take it, whether or not the London County Council consents, subject to the consent of the Local Government Board. That will introduce confusion. What is wanted in these matters is uniformity of administration, and that is what you will not get under this Bill. There is not even the power to retransfer such powers from the boroughs to the London County Council. I maintain that if a transfer of power is necessary it ought to be done by a Private Bill in Parliament. It is the obvious intention of the Government to keep on adding to the powers of these municipal boroughs set up by the Bill, and that process must inevitably result in the further curtailment of the power and authority of the Central Authority of London. For these reasons, therefore, I strongly object to the retrograde proposals of the Bill. I pass to the third head of my objection. There is no finality in the Bill. The City is untouched; it is left in its spendid isolation, dead to the higher impulses on behalf of the metropolis as a whole. The administration of the Poor Law is not touched. The Metropolitan Asylums Board is left untouched. The Bill sets up a condition of things in these localities which cannot be permanent, if we are to judge by the language of Lord Salisbury and the Leader of the House. Then, Sir, the principles of the Bill are to be given effect to in various ways. They are to be given effect to through the Local Government Board, through the Privy Council, and partly by Provisional Orders—a most unsatisfactory method of procedure, which may or may not have the attention of the House. Even more unsatisfactory still is the clause which enables the Government to proceed by schemes under the Bill, which will practically be withdrawn from the purview of Parliament. I find that out of 28 clauses no less than 21, either in part or in whole, are to operate

  1597
  in this most unsatisfactory manner. As far as possible, Parliament is not to have have a controlling voice, and, therefore, I say the Bill proceeds on faulty and mischievous principles. I now come to my last head, and I apologise to the House for speaking at such length, and thank honourable Members for the patient hearing they have given me. I agree, to a certain extent, with the Prime Minister when he deplores the harm that follows upon deciding local questions on political principles. I think we all admit that such matters should be dealt with upon their merits apart from general political controversy. Lord Salisbury has himself attacked the London County Council and London government, and has forced my right honourable Friends on this side of the House to enter the political arena. I do not say the fault is more on one side than on the other, but I do say that this Bill is, and must be, an aggravation of the evil. It ignores the Commission of 1894; it ignores the policy to which, at any rate, honourable Members on this side of the House are attached, and for which they have worked and mean to work; it reverses their own policy of 1888, embodying as it did the principle of the unity of London—a policy which obtained from this side of the House very cordial support. Suddenly we find that the Government have gone back in the direction of the old Commission of 1854, and have produced a Bill which must be most distasteful in many of its provisions to all those on this side of the House who have taken great interest in the question of London government The whole design of it is really to save the City from attack, and to impede the realisation of the idea of the unity of London. These corporations which the Bill proposes to set up are intended to be so many bulwarks between the City and those whom the City look upon as its enemies. None the less, however shall we stand by what we believe to be best for London, and what London wants. It is the Government who will be responsible if in the future embittered controversies arise over questions concerning the government of London. They have chosen to depart from their own policy, they have chosen to go in the opposite direction to ours. The question of London government
  1598
  goes far beyond ordinary political lines, and enthusiasts in favour of London unity are to be found in the ranks of the supporters of Her Majesty's Government. The Government have no mandate for this Bill. Let them show their mandate if it exists at all. I assert that they are intending to pass this Bill in the face of opposition deliberately expressed by London last year—expressed with the clearness of a plebiscite. This Bill is to be forced, I suppose, down our throats. I am afraid it will intensify feeling, and make the attainment of the unity of London more difficult. That is your object, and you may achieve it with your big battalions here and with the assistance of your friends in the House of Lords. This Bill spells disintegration in every clause, and, above all, London requires municipal unity. It is a city so vast, so unwieldy, with so little cohesion in its huge districts, that its people have little or no sense of corporate existence, and for that reason London requires the fullest possible development of municipal life with devolution of powers to local councils stronger and more dignified than those that now exist. We consider it of vital importance to the whole that these local councils should work harmoniously together for the good, not only of themselves, but for the whole of London, and to effect this the system of government must centre in one high authority, and that authority must be representative of all London, possessed with a living sense of responsibility for the whole welfare of London, and provided with the power and the influence necessary to bring home to every man of understanding that he owes a duty not only to himself and to his locality, but to the inhabitants in general of that great metropolis of which he is a citizen. Sir, this Bill conflicts with the attainment of this great result, and for that reason I have the honour to move the Amendment which stands in my name.
  *MR. WHITMORE: Mr. Speaker, I hope the House will not think me presumptuous in rising to speak upon this Bill. I venture to do so because I happen to be a London Member, and also a member of the London County Council, who has for many years taken a great interest in this question. I should like to utter

  1599
  one word of protest against the suspicion which the right honourable Gentleman who has just sat down seems to entertain as to the object of the Government in bringing in this Bill. If I for one moment thought that the Government, by the introduction of this Bill, had in some sinister and ulterior way a design to attack the London County Council, I should not be inclined to support this Measure. The right honourable Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition smiles at that remark. I hope he is not smiling incredulously at what I am saying. The question of London government was fought at the last County Council election, but the question before the electors then was not of the unity of London as understood by the right honourable gentleman the Member for Leeds. The question, no doubt, was whether the Council should remain in its integrity with all its essential powers; but there was no question of amalgamation with the Corporation. The question was also before the electors whether there should not be set up by the side of the County Council authoritative and dignified local authorities, and no man spoke out with greater distinctness in favour of that proposition than the right honourable Gentleman the late Home Secretary. I do not know whether he wishes to be reminded of what he said in 1894, at a meeting held in the Queen's Hall, but he certainly used language which justifies the Government in introducing this Bill. He said the then Government proposed to give the local bodies the stimulus of more attractive titles and of conspicuous positions which would create a more fruitful field for the best energy and the best efforts of the best men of the localities. His phrase was rather rotund, but if it meant anything it meant that these bodies should have the dignity of possessing mayors and councillors.
  MR. ASQUITH (Fife, E.): I was speaking at the time in support of the Courtney Commission, and against a scheme for creating municipalities.
  *MR. WHITMORE: Then I am afraid the language which the right honourable Gentleman used did not convey that impression. Let me now refer to the speech of the right honourable Gentleman, the Member for Leeds. It is vain
  1600
  for honourable Members on the other side of the House to expect from this Government the amalgamation of the County Council with the City. We hold the view that it is not expedient to make one municipality in London. I think it would be unwise to make the head of the County Council the Lord Mayor of London, and to give to the County Council all the attributes and dignities of the old Corporation. In my opinion London does not want this. No doubt at one time there was a great feeling in favour of unification, because it was supposed that the City was possessed of great wealth, and that if merged into Greater London the ratepayers of London generally would be relieved in consequence. It is now known that if amalgamation took place no relief would accrue to the rates of London. After all, the County Council must always have most important, varied, and difficult duties to perform. The strain on the ordinary county councillor now is great. Why should you add to that the wholly unnecessary ceremonial attributes which attach to the City? As regards the administrative work of London in general, what real practical good would result from the amalgamation of the City with the area of the County Council? I frankly admit that if I were a citizen of London I should like to see the City Corporation reformed, but it has reformed itself in many ways since 1834, notably in the abolition of the old Commissioners of Sewers. That was a real administrative reform. But whether the Corporation requires reforming or not, there is no doubt that it governs admirably the part of London over which it has jurisdiction. So I fail to see that the unification of London in that sense is of any great practical importance to Londoners in general. As the right honourable Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury pointed out when he introduced this Bill, there have always been two sets of institutions in London for local government purposes. Unlike the great-provincial towns, we have always had some kind of institution for central purposes and some kind of institution for local purposes. That principle was acted upon by the legislation of the Metropolis Management Act; it was acted upon by the last Unionist Government in 1888, when that Government

  1601
  deliberately set up the London County Council. When the County Council was established it was the admitted intention of the Government to set up by its side administrative local bodies. I think the real problem with all reformers of London government has been, first of all, to ascertain what are the proper functions of a central authority and local authorities; then to decide what are the proper areas for the local authorities; and, thirdly, to provide and maintain a proper equipoise and relation between the central and local authorities. In London, so far as I can understand, there must always be a central authority—the County Council —exercising far and away the most important and interesting functions of all. and by its side independent and dignified local authorities. I do not see why there should be any subordination of the local authorities to the central authority or superiority of the central authority over the local authorities. In London there should be no inconsistency in theory or practice between patriotism to one's parish and to one's city at large. The necessity for dignifying the local bodies is generally agreed upon, and the method adopted in this Bill does not meet with much real or serious objection. In giving the local authorities mayors and aldermen, the Government have followed the precedent of the Municipal Corporations Act. With regard to the transfer of powers from the County Council to local authorities, the Government have been tender to the feelings of county councillors. The powers to be transferred are "agreed" powers, and no Moderate councillor wishes, or would ever wish, to transfer powers unnecessarily from the Council to local authorities. The members of any municipal body are anxious to make that body powerful, they are slow to get rid of any of their powers and to hand them over to any other body. I am perfectly certain that no Councillor would unnecessarily relieve the London County Council of duties which it is obviously right that that body should retain. With regard to the clause which proposes to give local authorities power to promote and oppose Bills, I am sure it will not be used against the County Council, or in favour of private monopolies. You have only to look at the way in which the Conservative City of London has always co-operated in
  1602
  such matters with the London County Council, to convince you that that will be so. The City has been as warm as the County Council in opposition to private monopolies, to the Water Companies and to the Telephone Company. I must say I was astonished at the way in which the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Leeds has dealt with the manner in which the Government propose to deal with the question of areas. Everybody knows that this question is the crux of any Bill re-constituting local authorities in London. There are two extreme schools of thought which have made themselves apparent on this question. On the one hand, you have those who wish arbitrarily and capriciously to carve London into something like 10 districts; and, on the other extreme, you have those who would preserve the existing areas; and the Bill which was promoted by the honourable Members for Islington and Battersea showed what I call an excessively conservative tendency in that direction. As a matter of fact, they proposed to give municipal dignity to all the existing vestries and district boards. That was the low-water mark of reform in that direction. The report of the Commission presided over by the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Bodmin took a middle course, and on the whole the Government are acting upon the lines of that report as to areas. That report, it will be remembered, selected 19 areas. I do not say that they were all wisely selected, but still the Commission did select certain districts, and declared that the rest of London must be delimited by a Boundary Commission. That is essentially what the Government have done in this Bill. They have selected 15 areas, and have left the rest to be delimited by a Boundary Commission. I cannot pass by in silence the grossly unfair and misleading statement, that in the selection of the 15 areas the Government have chosen out the rich districts as opposed to the poor. Has the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Leeds looked at Schedule A of the Bill? It is really worth examining for one moment. The accusation he has made is a grave one; if it be true he should substantiate it, and if false it should

  1603
  be withdrawn. There are 15 areas in Schedule A. I am afraid that at the present time there is not a much better test of the character of the population of any particular district than the politics of those who are returned to the London County Council. At any rate, I am afraid that that is so. I find, when I look at the way in which the County Council election went at the last contest, in 13 of these areas, which returned in all 54 members, exactly 27 were Progressive councillors, and 27 were Moderates. That is a most significant fact, and it absolutely shows that these districts are not in any way exclusively the districts of the rich. I would like to ask anybody who knows anything about London if they think that Battersea is a city of the rich?
  MR. BURNS: In some things it is. We have no monopolies.
  *MR. WHITMORE: I should also like to ask whether Camberwell, Fulham, Hammersmith, Islington, Lambeth, and St. Pancras, are cities of the rich? With regard to the delimitation of the rest of London, I cannot help hoping that the Boundary Commission will think not only of the express directions given them in the Bill, but also somewhat of the kind of districts which have been put in the first schedule. I must thank the Government for having selected Chelsea as one of the areas. I am aware that its population is somewhat smaller than that of the other areas, but no doubt it has been selected, because it has had a vigorous local life and possesses those local traditions, which go to make the success of the municipal boroughs of this country. Surely, the Boundary Commission will take note of that, and in delimiting the rest of London will not think simply of putting together great aggregations of population, but will have due regard to local circumstances, to ancient history, and to present local feeling. And I am bound to say I shall be glad, while this Bill is in Committee, to see two other areas included in the first schedule. Both Shoreditch and Bethnal Green, have all the attributes which the Boundary Commissioners would say would make then worthy of receiving a charter of incur-
  1604
  poration. Therefore, I think it would be wise if this House itself included them in the first schedule, for it would make it still more difficult for imaginative gentlemen who know nothing about London, to rake up the absurd charge that the districts are arranged in favour of the rich, at the expense of the poor. I think it is as well that the Conservatives of London should freely express their minds on some of these points. I pass from the matter of areas to what, perhaps, is, after all, in most men's minds, when they are thinking about this Bill. I have heard cynical friends say—"What, after all, will be the outcome of it? It may be a good enough Bill, but will you get a better class of men to serve on your local authorities?" I do not know. I do not wish to indulge in any prophecy but, at all events, it seems to me that by this Bill, the Government are doing what they can, by legislation, to attract the best kind of men to the service of local government. You are going to invest the local authorities with those titles and dignities which have proved attractive in other parts of the country. Most wisely, you are going to limit the number of your councillors, so that in future each individual councillor shall have a distinct sense of responsibility, and shall feel that he is able to perform some useful work for the body of which he is a member. As regards areas, I hope that on the one hand, they will not be too big, and that, on the other hand, they will be large enough to prevent any little clique or body of tradesmen from bossing their affairs. If the Government do that by this Bill, we must leave the rest to the good feeling and growing sense of responsibility of the citizens of London. It is a curious thing, but I suppose there is no city in the world where so many men and women of leisure and means are giving up their time, their thoughts, their energies, and their money to the service of their fellow-citizens in every other department of life, except that of local government, as in London. I do not suppose that in any other country you can find so glorious a record of self-sacrificing lives. That is the proud boast of London. Its disgrace has been, unfortunately, that the local bodies have not been able to attract to

  1605
  their service the same class of men as are to be found on local bodies in provincial towns. I do think, from the bottom of my heart, that if this Bill does a little something by way of legislation to encourage that which we want to see, and to get rid of that stain on the reputation of Londoners, and to make them as zealous in this branch of public service as they are showing themselves in every other department of public life, it will be a great achievement. And, if that be so, we have a right to be grateful to the Government for introducing this Measure. I believe that it proceeds on the right lines. If we can only purge these local bodies of the curse of excessive Party spirit, it will be a great means by which we can elevate the local life of London. Unlike the right honourable Gentleman who has just spoken, I can assure him that, in my judgment, and in the judgment of many others who are not extreme partisans, this Measure is a sound and sensible instalment of practical administrative reform. We thank the Government for having introduced it, and we will do our best, with, I hope the co-operation of the right honourable and honourable Gentlemen opposite, to make it a really useful Measure, which will add to the prosperity and happiness of this great town, of which we are all so proud.
  MR. STEADMAN: The honourable Member, in a very able speech, has done his best to convince the House and London that this Bill is to the interest of the people of London. He also pointed out that at the present time the London County Council is so overworked that the natural consequence is that some of its powers should be transferred to the local authorities. I do not happen to know how long the honourable Member for Chelsea has been a member of the London County Council, but I do know that I have been a member myself for seven years, not like the honourable Member, an alderman, responsible to no constituents for my work or my faults, but elected by the people of the East End of London to represent them upon the Council. I have also been for some years a member of the Mile End Vestry, and, there-
  1606
  fore, I have some practical knowledge of the matter now before the House. I am one of those who entirely object to Party politics being introduced into municipal affairs. I maintain that we on this side of the House, and the Progressive Party in the London County Council are not responsible for the elections being fought on Party political lines. As a matter of fact, the First Lord of the Treasury himself during one election came down to my constituency to speak in support of the Moderate candidates, and I am pleased to inform the House that, in spite of the right honourable Gentleman's high position and oratory, and the great influence he was able to bring to bear upon a mass meeting, the answer given him was the return of Progressive members in that and in the adjoining constituencies. On a previous occasion, the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Birmingham came down into the constituency to advocate a system of tenification. But the people of East London, having more knowledge of their local affairs than even the right honourable Gentleman, gave him his answer by saying that they wanted unification and not tenification. So far as the remarks of the honourable Member for Chelsea, with regard to the County Council being overworked are concerned, all I have to say is that if he and his friends in the Moderate Party were to do their share equally with the Progressive Party we could do more work than we are undertaking to do even at the present moment. What does this Bill propose to do? In the first place, it proposes to set up a semi-House of Lords in our local bodies by the election of aldermen. What and who is an alderman? He is a gentleman selected by the party who for the time being may be in power. It was the ease that in 1895 the Moderates and Progressives returned to the Council were equal in number, and for this fact the honourable Member for Chelsea must thank his lucky stars, because owing to it he was elected an alderman of the Council. I am a democrat myself, and I am opposed to the House of Lords interfering with the legislative machinery of this country. As such, I am opposed to the election of aldermen either on the London County

  1607
  Council, or on the local bodies. They go there not with any mandate from the constituencies, they are responsible to no one, they do absolutely as they like, and no one can call them to account for their votes. We all know that reform is very much needed in the vestries and district boards of London. Take the case of the overseers. They are elected, it is true, by the vestries; but their election has to be confirmed by a stipendiary magistrate, and when he has done that they have the power of raising the necessary money for local purposes. They also are able to spend what money they choose, they may go down to the seaside at the expense of the ratepayers, and neither the vestry nor anybody else can call them to account. They are responsible to no one for their actions. Yet this Bill will retain them in exactly the same position.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: No, no!
  MR. STEADMAN. Can the right honourable Gentleman show me anything in the Bill making the overseers responsible to any local authority for their action in the same way as committees elected by that body are? I can assure him I am prepared to support any reform in that direction. I admit that, so far as the churchwardens are concerned, the Bill abolishes their election by the municipality, and rightly so. I am a Churchman myself and have been so from my infancy, but I have seen cases where men have been elected as churchwardens who have no religious belief at all. Plenty of them go to the church on the Sabbath morning, and when they come out enter a public-house, and stick there until closing time. Such men, in my humble opinion, are not fit to be churchwardens. I have known cases in which a Nonconformist has been elected to the office. That man, too, has no right to be a churchwarden, because he shows by the very fact of his being a Nonconformist that he disbelieves in the principle of an established church. But he has accepted the office, because prior to the Bill brought forward by the Liberal Party in 1894 it carried with it the chairmanship of the vestry, and in order to secure that official po-
  1608
  sition he took that inconsistent action. Then there is the question of the transfer of powers. That is a very important matter, for I maintain that every power transferred from the London County Council to these new municipalities will weaken the influence of that council in spite of the eloquence of the honourable Member for Chelsea. What has been our past experience upon our vestries? They have had to carry out the Public Health Act, a most important duty for any administrative body. But, as a rule, our vestries to-day are manipulated by men who are property owners in the district, whose interest it is that the sanitary laws should not be carried out. However much a Sanitary Inspector may desire to carry those laws out, it is very often the case that, owing to the intimidation of Members of the vestry who own property in the district, he is unable to put them in force. Then there is the question of loans. To-day, the London County Council lends money to our local boards at 3⅛ per cent. interest. It is true that the Local Government Board will lend money at a cheaper rate, but only for short terms; for longer terms they charge a higher rate of interest. You say under this Bill that in the future the Municipalities shall apply to the Local Government Board and not to the London County Council for loans. Yet the great outcry to-day is that municipal enterprise, more especially in the East End of London, is retarded by the fact that they are not able to borrow money re-payable not in 10, 50, or 60 years, but in 100 years. Then there is the question of cow-houses and slaughter-houses. To-day, the London County Council looks after the administration of those places. You propose to transfer these powers to the local authority, and what is happening to-day on our vestries with reference to our Sanitary Laws will happen on these new authorities in regard to cow-houses and slaughter-houses, because the owners of them will aspire to become members of these bodies in order to prevent their interests being interfered with, whereas, at the present moment, the London County Council sees that the regulations on this matter are properly carried out. Next, I come to the question of the main roads. In

  1609
  this subject, I am specially interested, as the representative of the East End of London. The honourable Member for Chelsea stated that the County Council itself was in favour of the transfer, among other things, of the maintenance of our main roads to the new municipalities. There is one main road in the East End of London, the Commercial Road, which runs through four parishes, Poplar, Limehouse, Mile End Old Town, and St. George's in the East. The County Council have to pay part of the cost of maintenance of that road to-day. Now, it must be borne in mind that we have in this district the Albert Docks, the Victoria Docks, the East and West India Docks, and the Mill wall Docks, and this road is the thoroughfare along which are carted all the bonded goods conveyed from the Docks to the City and West End of London. Why should the poor people in the East End of London, who are already over-rated, be still more heavily taxed for the maintenance of this road, which is used in the interests of the City and West End merchants? In the time of Charles II. the hackney carriage licence of £5 per annum was applied towards the cost of sewering and paving our roads, yet at the end of this enlightened nineteenth century we are going back from what was done in those days. The chief item of interest to myself, however, as the representative of the East End of London is the incidence of rates. I find, after carefully going through the last returns, the following facts in regard to the rates. Those of Bow which in 1892 were 7s. 3d. in the £1 are today 8s. 1d. In Bromley they have risen from 7s. 5d. to 7s. 8d.; in Limehouse, from 6s. 2d. to 6s. 8d.; in Poplar, from 6s. 3d. to 7s. 4½d.; in Ratcliffe, from 5s. 8d. to 6s. 5d.; in St. George's in the East, from 5s. 5d. to 5s. l1d.; in Shadwell, from 6s 3d. to 6s. 9d.; in Wapping, from 5s. 7½d. to 6s. 5d.; in Whitechapel, from 6s. 1d. to 6s. 6d.: and in Mile End, from 6s. 6d. to 6s. 9d. The reason I give these figures is this: in 1894 the Equalisation of Rates Act came into operation, and, strange to say, every parish I have mentioned, although it has benefited by that Act, has since had its rates increased in spite of the sum it has received under it. Take the hamlet of Mile End Old
  1610
  Town. We receive £12,288, which is equal to a rate of 8d. in the £1. Yet in spite of that our rates have gone up year by year, and I will attempt to show the House the reason for it. The Poor Rate in Mile End, which includes the School Board, the Police, the County Council, and the Asylums Board Rate, is 4s. 4d. in the £1. In Bow it is 5s. 5d., in Bromley 4s. 10d., in Limehouse 4s. 2d., in Poplar 4s. 6d., in Ratcliff 3s. l1d., in St. George's in the East, 3s. 3d., in Shadwell, 4s. 4d., in Wapping 3s. 8½d., and in Whitechapel 3s. 9d. in the £1. Our Poor Rate in Mile End in 1894, previously to our receiving over £12,000 under the Equalisation of Rates Act, was 3s. 7d. in the £. In 1895 it was 3s. 9d., in 1896 it was 4s., and now it stands at 4s. 4d. in the £. These figures prove conclusively the poverty that exists to-day in the East End of London, and, instead of limiting the evil by means of this Bill, you are going to intensify it by shutting us off from the West End of London. The result is that the Bill will keep us poor. You cannot wonder at the fact that the East End of London, in consequence of this poverty, has always been the happy hunting-ground for philanthropists and political pensioners. Under this Bill the people of the East End are still to stew in their poverty, while the rich are to be eased from their present responsibilities of paying an equal share of the public burdens. It is not because we spend money in waste. We have not even adopted the Free Libraries Act in Mile End, or the Public Baths and Washhouses Act. Our roads to-day, too, are not in that state of repair which they should be; our streets are badly lighted; and yet our rates are 6s. 9d. in the £. The reason is, that our people are getting poorer every day; our poor rate is 4s. 4d. in the £; and in that fact you have proof of the poverty which exists. The result is that we are not able to put into force Acts which were passed for the benefit of the people; we dare not increase our rates even ½d. more in the £, because the working classes are not able to bear any additional burden. Take the parish of the honourable Member for Chelsea. He was very keen in trying to demonstrate to the House that some of the parishes which are scheduled under this Bill are as poor as some of

  1611
  those that are left out. I do not sec that, Mr. Speaker. I find that in Kensington the Poor Rate is only 3s. 5½d. in the £, while the total rate is only 5s. 8½d. In Westminster (St. James's) the rates are 5s. 1d., in St. Martin's-in-the-Fields 5s. 6d., and in Chelsea 5s. 6d. only. And what is the ease in the City? The City for years past has been driving the poorer population out of its area to swell the already over-congested districts that surround it, and the result is that the City, instead of bearing its own responsibilities in looking after the working classes that at one time used to reside there, has driven them away to places like Battersea and Mile End, to the great relief of their own rates. Their minimum rate is 2s. 11½d. in the £, and their maximum only 3s. 0½d. in the £, or more than 40 per cent. less than we in the East End of London are paying. Yet these people in the City, whom this Bill does not touch, are better able to bear their burdens and pay their way than those who live in the East End. They, however, are to be let off scot-free by this Bill, and the poor are to go on struggling in the best way they can. I myself am in favour of some reform in our vestries and district boards. Personally I should be satisfied with a simple alteration of the title from the vestry or district board to district council, and instead of the members of our vestries being called vestrymen—they are commonly known as "Bumbles"—I would give them the title of councillors. But you do not propose to do that in this Bill. It is true you do not advocate a system of tenification, but by reducing the number of areas you are going in the right direction to bring that about on some future occasion. Plus the tinsel pomp of Lord Mayors' Shows, you are going to construct certain municipalities, with mayors as chairmen, and with aldermen in their dignified robes and chains of office, which will be the means of swelling their heads to such an extent that the time will not be far distant when the London County Council will be got rid of altogether. Now, I must point out that the secret of the success and popularity of the London County Council is its simplicity. Its chairman, while he is not Lord Mayor, is the real Mayor of London. He does not repre-
  1612
  sent a city within a city, but he represents the whole of the County of London. Ho does not preside over the meetings of the Council robed in ermine and wearing a chain of office, and neither do our aldermen attend in their garb of office. On the contrary, they come in all their simplicity, the same as myself and my colleague the Member for Battersea, who are looked upon as belonging to the working classes. I repeat, it is because of that simplicity that the London County Council is so popular today with the people of London. Another cause of its popularity is that it attacks interests and privileged monopolies. It is distasteful to the present Government for the very same reasons, and, therefore, they are going to do their level best, not to put it out of existence perhaps, but to deprive it of the more important of its powers. I have called attention to several parishes which are going to be put in what I may term "the melting-pot." If the Government had been wise—or if the honourable Member for Chelsea, who I believe has had a very important finger in advising the Government as to the details of the Measure, had been wise—they would have selected for municipalities all the vestries and district boards, and then there would have been no occasion to have appointed boundary commissioners. But instead of that they have selected only a few, although in order if possible to get the united support of this House they have included even the constituency of my honourable Friend the Member for Battersea. They have included, too, one of the constituencies in the East End of London—Poplar. But Poplar does not. want the Bill; it disagrees with it; and others of the large municipalities which are to be created under it—Westminster, for instance, in connection with which several parishes are to be joined together in order to form one municipality—are dissenting from the Bill. My own constituency, which, it is true, comprises only 677 acres, has a population of 111,200 persons, and its rateable value is £401,677. Now, the new municipalities are based upon rateable value, and, as usual, we have a Conservative Government bringing in class legislation, because, while Chelsea has a population of only 97,676, which is less than Mile

  1613
  End, yet. because its rateable value is £787,430, which is more than that of Mile End, it is to be created into a municipality. I maintain that these new authorities should have been based, not upon the rateable value, but on the population of the area. Our population in Mile End is greater than that of Chelsea, but because our rateable value is less—and that is our misfortune, it is not our fault—we are not to be converted into a municipality. I have shown how poor some of these East End parishes are, and what heavy rates they are called upon to pay. Some of them, perhaps—Limehouse, St. George's, and Whitechapcl—may be amalgamated into one municipality, but the fact remains that under this Bill you are going to centralise the poor to the poor, and that is the great object of the Hill. I have heard a remark outside that Mile End is to be tacked on to Bethnal Green, but that will not place us in any better position; and in any case, whatever parish you tack us on to in the East End, you join us to poverty instead of relieving our burdens. Now, all these parishes have boards of guardians, and while the members of some of these East End boards believe in the principle of outdoor relief—and when I was a guardian I did my best to administer the law in that direction—others are opposed to the principle. Therefore, in any East End municipality which you may create under this I5ill to administer the laws relating to the lighting, maintenance of roads, and other local purposes, you may have three, four, or five boards of guardians varying in their methods of administering the Poor Law, and the result will be a confusion worse than that which prevails even at the present moment. I see no earthly reason why the Bill should not entrust to these new authorities the administration of the Poor Law. My own experience both as a guardian and as a vestryman is that a municipality could well undertake all these powers instead of having two separate boards to deal with them. Now, in the Report of Mr. Courtney's Commission in 1894 it was stated that Mile End had a larger population than Birkenhead, Derby, Halifax, Norwich, or Swansea, while it was more fully assessed than Burnley, Birkenhead, Halifax, or Plymouth, yet because we are poor, and have not got the rateable qualification,
  1614
  we are not to have the same privileges and powers as those smaller towns possess. As a matter of fact, there are only three cities in England—Liverpool, Manchester, and Birmingham—that are larger than any municipality we have in London at the present time. I commenced by saying that, personally, I deprecated politics being introduced into these discussions. At the same time, I maintain that the Party to which I belong are not responsible for Party politics having been introduced. On 16th November 1897 Lord Salisbury, at a public meeting in London, stated that as London was 10 or 12 times as great as any other municipality it ought to be regarded, not as one municipality, but as an aggregation of municipalities, and he appealed to the electors of London to return the Moderates to power. I think that the electors of London, in March 1898, gave Lord Salisbury an answer to that speech, and I would remind the House that at every election I have fought—and I have been returned at the top of the poll in each case—the principle of unification has been in the forefront of our programme, and not tenification. Decentralisation always means weakness, while centralisation always means strength. [Dissent.] Well, honourable Members may not agree with me, but they must admit that I have had some experience. I have not been engaged in the Labour movement for 25 years without realising that fact. I know that the present Bill proceeds upon the line of making impossible any further equalisation of rates, and this is being done in spite of the fact that, under the present system, the East End of London is getting every year poorer, and now you are going to make it impossible for the incidence of taxation to fall upon the shoulders of those best able to bear it; you are, in fact, placing it upon the shoulders of the people who are least able to bear it. In setting up a powerful municipality, as you are doing at Westminster, not on the basis of population, but upon that of rateable value, you are practically creating a second City of London. Not only does the Government Bill proceed upon wrong principles, but it embodies no real local reform. It purports to establish new bodies, but it retains an antiquated system: and instead of working on self-contained areas, it marks out for the

  1615
  boroughs of Westminster and Wandsworth areas that are universally acknowledged to be too large to ensure that minute personal attention which is the very essence of local administration. It erects the paraphernalia of municipalities with their mayors and aldermen, without adding the distinctive duties ordinarily attaching to municipalities, and I am afraid that instead of vivifying it will stifle local life and activity; it will undoubtedly add to the cost of administration. For these reasons I strongly support the Amendment moved by the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Leeds.
  Upon the return of Mr. SPEAKER after the usual interval—
  *MR. ALBAN GIBBS: It is not my intention to trespass for any length of time on the patience of the House, but as Member for the City of London, against which this Amendment, or at any rate the larger half of it, appears to be directed, I feel it to be my duty to say a few words, and I will ask the House to bear with me for a few moments while I do so. I have not myself the honour to be a member of the Corporation, but I think that, as representing the individuals who form the Corporation as their Member in Parliament, and many other constituents in the City who are not members in the Corporation, I may say they thoroughly approve of this Bill. The Corporation in London have long desired to see municipalities about them such as these are, and I was sorry to hear the right honourable Gentleman who moved this Amendment say that it would rob the County Council of its vitality and utility. I am sorry that the right honourable Gentleman has such a low opinion of the vitality of the County Council as to think it would be weakened by having municipalities gathered round it, even if they remove from it some of its less important work. As one who believes it is desirable that London should live an entity, but not be interfered with as honourable Members want it to be. I think I may say that my right honourable Friend the First Lord of the Treasury has made good his claim that this Bill would complete the edifice of London government in the metropolitan area. I know that honourable and right honourable Gentlemen
  1616
  opposite have made use of expressions which show that they have a very different opinion, but we all know that on the transpontine stage, when one player gets the better of another, that one always has the opportunity of taking his place upon the stage and saying, "No matter; the time will come." I do not think the time will ever come when the County Council will be able to despoil the City of its ancient privileges, and what I hope is, that when the Debate is over and the Bill is passed, the County Council will recognise that fact. I desire to speak of the County Council with the utmost respect; they have some very important duties and some very high duties to perform, and I hope they will now settle down quietly to attend to those duties. If that is the case, I think this Bill will have done a very great and good work for London. Now, the only clause of this Bill that directly affects the City is clause 12. I think—I do not speak with that authority for the Corporation that my honourable colleague would do, but I believe that the City has always been ready to make the arrangements that has been put forward in this Bill; but I think that the County Council has preferred to keep their grievance. Very little money is involved, and I really think myself, if you have a nice grievance, it is foolish to give it up for so small an amount of money. I think I may say, with due deference, that this clause is perhaps rather loosely drawn—I am sure it is not the intention of the clause; but if it by chance does permit the County Council to come into the City and interfere with the county fund and the way it is now being administered by the City, it will have my strong opposition and it will be my duty to put down Amendments and to make that matter perfectly clear. I do not wish to go through a detailed defence of the City at this time; there has not been very many detailed accusations brought against it, but if when the Bill comes to another stage Amendments are put down which challenge the administration of the City in any way I shall be quite prepared to meet them then. One thing that has been said about the City is that there are too many aldermen. I have heard it said a great many times that the number of the common councillors and aldermen was excessive, and I was very much sur-

  1617
  prised. I would like to point out that the 26 alderman discharge many great and important duties besides that of sitting in the debates of Common Council. They do all the magisterial work, and certainly they are a very hard-worked body of men. Moreover, I do not suppose that anybody making a new municipality would make it so large as this. In a municipality which has lived for more than a thousand years, and people have been trained to municipal work, there is not the slightest difficulty in finding good men to do that work, and when it is found that there are too many at one time, that the number of them has become inconvenient, the number can be lowered by the City itself. The right honourable Gentleman who moved the Amendment referred to a speech which was made by my right honourable Friend the Member for Bodmin, who I am sorry to see is not here at present. He referred to the great pleasure with which he expressed himself as favourable to the unification of the City. He certainly did say he was favourable, but I do not complain of the rest of his speech. He said the City administered its funds as if they were in trust to the whole of the metropolis, and he instanced several things which the City had done for the benefit of the metropolis, such as the building of the Tower Bridge, and he said they administered their funds and administered them well: but, Sir, to say that they administer their funds and administer them for the benefit of the whole of the metropolis is not sufficient reason for taking away the administration of those funds from them. I had hoped that the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Leeds would have been here to hear my speech, because there is one thing which he said caused me a great deal of surprise. He alluded to the Municipalities Corporation Commission of 1835, and he said it made no exception in the case of the City. I should like to read, if the House will bear with me, just a few lines of that Report, It is on page 36 of the Report, paragraph 78—
  "The Common Council of the City of London presents a striking exception to the system of self-election for life, and it affords a remarkable instance of the absence of those evils which we refer to it. The Common Councilmen of the City arc annually elected by a numerous constituency, yet changes seldom
  1618
  happen among them. The important requisites in the experience of the functionary and the power of control in the electors are there effectually united, and produce that efficiency and confidence which are wanting in most other corporate towns. The history of the Common Council of London is that of a body which has watched vigilantly over the interests of its constituents, and for a long series of years has studied to improve the corporate institutions with great earnestness, unremitting caution, and scrupulous justice."
  Well, Sir, that is as much as to say that the City is a reformed corporation; therefore I do not think any honourable Members opposite are entitled to say as they invariably say, whenever they do want to say anything at all against the City of London, that it is unreformed. As my honourable Friend the Member for Chelsea said, ever since that date the City of London has gone on reforming itself, and whenever it has had to come to Parliament for reforms, those reforms have been resisted to the best of their ability by honourable Members opposite. The right honourable Gentleman did not make any very specific charges against the City. He did not put forward anything that seems to require any particular answer. He said the City was a reproach and an anomaly. He meant, I suppose, that they were a reproach to other bodies who did not do so well as they. Then, as for their being an anomaly, I do not think that a borough situated in a county can be considered an anomaly. He said they were dead to all the higher influences, over all the City. I suppose he means by that that they did all the business that they had to do, and having administered their own business did not concern themselves officially with the business of other people. I do not suppose that the right honourable Gentleman is ignorant of the amount of charity that is done by the City or individual members of the City; I do not think that he meant to disparage that in any way, so I will leave that question alone. The honourable Member for Stepney also did not make any specific charges against the City, though I cannot say he seemed to have any friendly feelings towards it. The one thing he did say, I have heard said very often, both in the City and the more central parishes of London, and that is that we drove the poor out of the City. It is natural that the poor should go outwards from the centre where they

  1619
  can get cheaper houses and purer air, and the facilities for getting into the City have so increased of late years that it is true that the poor have gone out to places where the value of land and houses is much cheaper than in the City, or at Kensington, or places of that description. But the City poor rate is lower, because each penny in the pound produces so much more. Now, I think that is all the attack that has been brought against the City. I do not wish to follow the right honourable Gentleman through all his attacks upon the Bill, because they were so ably answered by my honourable Friend the Member for Chelsea. I merely say now that I think this Bill merits the hearty support of all people who care for the good government of London, and I do think it will have the hearty support of the Metropolitan Members on this side of the House, and I thank the Government very much for having introduced it.
  MR. HOLLAND: The one thing I think which strikes one in this Debate is the difference between the tone of the honourable Members opposite to-night and that of their speeches which they made upon the First Reading of the Bill. The Debate has been raised from a mere philanthropic opposition to the dignity of a Party attack. It is true that this Bill detracts nothing from the powers of the County Council except those powers which were agreed upon at the conference at the County Hall, and the powers with regard to the Building Act. I entirely agree that that is a matter to be discussed in Committee, and I certainly do think that that provision with regard to the Building Act and the power it is proposed to transfer to the local municipalities is unfortunate. So far as the other powers are concerned it detracts nothing from the powers of the County Council except the powers that were, as I have said before, agreed to at the conference at the County Hall. But honourable Members opposite had their prophecies to maintain. They prophesied that evil consequences would come of this Bill, and indeed after their victory at the last County Council election they actually said that no Bill
  1620
  would be introduced at all, but that if a Bill was introduced it would be a retrograde Measure and an attempt to wreck the County Council, so that they are obliged to attempt to justify their prophecy. They fixed chiefly on the provisions of this Bill in regard to Westminster, and they say that this creation of a municipality of Westminster with a rateable value larger, I believe, than any other rateable value in this kingdom, including Liverpool, is a menace to the County Council and an insidious attempt to weaken its prestige and influence, and it is a symptom of the disease of meglomania against which the Prime Minister uttered a well-considered warning in the remarks he made in his speech at the Albert Hall. I confess that I never hoped that this Bill would err from any excess of ambition, and if the present Government have any failing at all—and I am sure that they can be conscious of none—it is not a tendency to meglomania. I think it is a great satisfaction that the Government in this case have resisted any idea to make this Measure an optional Measure, but have resolved that the system established by this Measure shall run throughout London, so that the process of transition from one system to another will be as brief as possible. I say with regard to the question of Westminster that I hope the Government will not endeavour to stay the hostility of any honourable Members opposite by making any concession on any of the material points of this Bill, because that hostility is certain to be accentuated in the exact proportion in which the Bill is thought to require it. The true principle of this Bill is approved by the Party on this side of the House, and I hope that the Government will not minimise the provisions of this Bill so as to escape any local dissatisfaction which may be expressed with regard to it; for this dissatisfaction which is certain to be given expression to is merely temporary, and will all disappear when this Bill, which is a good one, has been in operation for some time. I cannot help thinking it is from some desire to escape from this dissatisfaction to a certain extent that we must attribute the basis of the areas which are scheduled in this Bill.

  1621
  But whatever criticism may be passed on this side of the House, I think we are unanimous in the view that this Measure is a great advance in the simplification and improvement of London Government, and I think it would have been more valuable if the provisions with regard to Westminster which are so objectionable to honourable Members opposite had struck the keynote of the whole matter. I take it that the restoration of the old borough of Westminster, which is homogeneous and self-contained, and an integral unit for all municipal purposes—an area large enough and important enough to give some dignity and responsibility to the members who serve on the council, to render the position of the mayor a position of some dignity, importance, and standing, and some historical association. The right honourable Gentleman the Member for Leeds suggests that these historical associations were somewhat fabulous, but after all the fables of history are not the least authoritative part of it—I say an area of this character will tend to develop and encourage a spirit of civic patriotism within the boundaries of that area, and tend also to encourage men of leisure and capacity to take part in the municipal work of the borough. I take it that one of the objects of the Bill is to improve the personnel of the local governing body. Well, that is an excellent provision in that direction. A provision which would be accepted on both sides of this House is the provision which cuts down the number of members who serve on the local boards. I hope that provision will not be altered by the Government from the minimum of 72, because of any deputation which may wait upon it and which expresses the sad dying notes of dispossessed vestrymen. For instance, the district which I represent at the present moment is governed by a district board in two schedules, by two vestries, one with 102 members and one with 80 or 82. Now, I must say that in this division the operation of this Act with regard to cutting down the number will not, in itself, be sufficient; it may be sufficient in districts which are better to do, but in the poor dis-
  1622
  tricts of London it is only by merging several into one administrative area, perhaps of the size of Westminster, that you will be able to obtain actual and real authority. There will be no difficulty, of course, in the district of Westminster, which is a wide and wealthy area, in obtaining 72 councillors of capacity and leisure to attend to the municipal business; but it is more difficult to man the local Board in districts in poor industrial neighbourhoods, and I myself hope that the Government will consider the advisability and possibility of applying the principle that Westminster has accepted, that the administrative area should be the old boundaries of the ancient borough, to the Tower Hamlets. In this case the Government propose to create 32 municipalities under the Bill. Will that very much increase the dignity of the councillors?—he is going to have 3,000 councillors for London, as many councillors as there are' bus drivers. He is going to have 30 mayors in London, and the dignity of the position must be, to an extent, determined by the duties and responsibilities which devolve upon them, and the duties which devolve on any of the municipal councils must be determined ultimately by the area of population which those councils control. The powers which are transferred, therefore, to the largest and most important municipality in London will be determined in the end by the powers they consent to transfer to the smallest and poorest municipality of London. It will, therefore, be agreed that there is a want of uniformity and similarity in the powers, whether transferred now or later to these bodies, which will be detrimental to the good government of London. I venture to suggest to the Government that some of the areas proposed by this Bill are altogether too small, and may be detrimental to the whole object of this Measure, and will mar and handicap its development, and will prevent the chance of further powers being extended to them in the future. Generally speaking, I think the proposal should be, in these cases, to select as large an area as can be conveniently governed from one centre. Of course, that does not represent the views of the honourable Members opposite: but Members on that side of the House are hostile to the whole principle

  1623
  of the Bill. It is conceded on both sides that there must be a central council, but the honourable Members opposite wish to approximate as nearly as possible to the principal of a central Government for London, and they insist upon the paramount superiority of the County Council. The view of this side is municipal diversity in London, and if that view is to prevail it is better that it should be carried out in an effective manner, and should not be handicapped by halfhearted opinion. It must also be considered that, as every council exercises similar functions and similar powers, there should be as much uniformity as possible in rateable value, population and acreage, without disturbing excessively the local feeling. But the want of uniformity in this Bill is almost astonishing. We find Hampstead with a population of 75,000, Lambeth with a population of 295,000, Islington with a population of 336,000, and then comes Chelsea, which, even with its outer district, Kensal Town, only has a population of 100,000, and without Kensal Town it only has a population of 70,000; yet it is proposed that this district of Kensal Town shall be detached from Chelsea for the purposes of municipal government, but shall be one with Chelsea for the purposes of electing representatives to the County Council. Surely this is a very undesirable arrangement; the whole spirit of municipal government, the whole chance of securing better municipal treatment is imperilled if every area selected is not an integral area for all government purposes. So far as possible, for its Parliamentary and electoral and all other purposes, it should be an integral unit. One of the great merits of this Bill is that it gets rid of the over-lapping of districts to a great extent, but its chief defect is, that it does not get rid of the overlapping altogether. We have, as I have said, the district of Chelsea, where the people of Chelsea and Kensal Town will vote for the same Parliamentary representatives, and for different municipal representatives; and if, as I suppose, part of Kensal Town is taken into Chelsea and part is absorbed by Bayswater, we shall have part of these districts voting as an integral unit for municipal purposes, while for Parliamentary and County Council purposes they will be voting as another
  1624
  borough. I think the condition should be insisted on that each area should be an integral area, not only for municipal purposes, but for County Council, poor law, and all electoral purposes as well. We have another instance in Hammersmith and Fulham; they are now one for poor-law and rating purposes, but they will be two for municipal purposes. I think the Government would have done better with this question of municipalities if they had reverted to the old Parliamentary boroughs; and what I personally desire to know is, whether it would not be expedient in may cases to follow this precedent of the Municipal Government Act. The provisions of the Municipal Government Act show that areas of the population and size of the municipal boroughs of London can be governed with efficiency and success, and it would be difficult to follow a better precedent than that. Now, in London, parishes have seen such changes that their boundaries have been altered beyond recognition, but the old Parliamentary boroughs offer the most ancient and historical areas that can be selected. Of course, it is impossible to suggest that the boundaries of those historical areas can be followed rigidly in every instance, but there are many districts which are properly so scheduled in this Bill, and which are already forward enough to have municipal councils of their own. It is a matter for consideration whether the areas of these Parliamentary boroughs cannot be followed in more than a single instance, which is the case in this Bill. The Committee of 1884, which was referred to by the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Leeds, laid stress upon the two first conditions for good municipal local government—minute local knowledge and common interest; and, so to carry out these two conditions, suggested that municipalities should be created in certain Parliamentary boroughs of London existing now. The right honourable Gentleman the Member for Leeds, in giving us a brief history of this subject, no doubt for the sake of brevity—after he had suggested that this Committee was influenced by the City, and that its recommendations were influenced by a desire to strengthen that ancient Corporation—omitted to mention the all-important fact that in 1868 one of the

  1625
  most distinguished Members whom Loudon has ever had, Mr. John Stuart Mill, himself strongly recommended the establishment of separate municipalities in the ten municipal boroughs of London. That also is the opinion of another eminent Radical, Mr. Samuel Morley; and, as a matter of fact, at that time that was universally the opinion of honourable Gentlemen opposite, and the Bill which was introduced for the establishment of these ten municipalities in the ten Parliamentary boroughs of London, by Mr. Mill and by Mr. Buxton, and other Members, received the support of the majority in this House, and it was only Lord Elcho, the present Lord Wemyss, who was the advocate of a single municipality for London. Is there any reason why the principle applied to Westminster should not also be applied to the Tower Hamlets? Surely this arrangement in reference to the Tower Hamlets is a most unfortunate one, for one part of the Tower Hamlets has been left to the tender mercies of the Commission which is going to be appointed. Then they have cut out from the Tower Hamlets, to create separate municipalities, the two poorest parts of the district in the whole of the Tower Hamlets, which have the highest rate and the smallest rateable value in proportion to the population—namely, Bromley and Poplar. Now. what chance of prosperity is there for a. municipality of this character? It is perfectly true what the honourable Member for Stepney said, that the separation of the poorer from the richer districts of London is one which may be inevitable, but at any rate it is one of the least desirable outcomes of the development of this great city. And, surely, it is the opposite of true statesmanship to do anything which is likely to increase, instead of diminish, this tendency: and it should be the object of statesmanship to try and remedy this. Bui what does this Bill do in regard to the Tower Hamlets? The average rate in London is about 5s. 9d. in the pound. Now, the average in the Tower Hamlets is 6s. 8d., and this Bill proposes to take the two poorest districts of the Tower Hamlets with a rate of 8s. in the pound, and, because of their poverty, make them into one municipality, while this district is wholly unsuitable for the purposes of a separate
  1626
  municipal area. It is a long strip of land, with houses, four miles long and only one mile in width at its broadest part, and the inhabitants of Bow and North Bromley abut on the main thoroughfare of the Tower Hamlets, and are as intimately and closely connected with Stepney and Mile End as they are with Poplar, and it takes them as much time to get to the City as to Poplar Town Hall. I do not suggest that the areas should be altered merely because they meet with disfavour in one or another district, but what I do suggest is, that to create a small municipality of this kind in one of the poorest districts of London must be detrimental to the future operation of this Bill, for it must diminish the powers, or the measure of the powers, which can be given in the future to the largest and most important municipality of London, which is the measure of the powers which you can give in this municipality of Poplar. And we must remember that to create such a limited area in a poor district such as that does not form a proper recruiting ground from which to obtain a strong and authoritative council. And, besides this, in regard to the powers, there are many powers, at any rate, which we on this side of the House believe might be very properly transferred in the future to these municipal councils. But, while it may be said that municipalities controlling a, large corporation of an important character may be safely and economically able to exercise these powers, they cannot with safety nor with economy be transferred to a small municipality in a small area any more than they can be transferred to the existing vestries or district boards, and what this Bill does in regard to Poplar is, that it takes the present district board, calls it a council, and calls its chairman a mayor. It is quite clear that one of the objects of this Bill should be to give a better chance of practising economy in London Government by creating municipalities in areas large enough to allow of economy by the combination of any powers that may be transferred to them under this Bill. Under any powers which may be transferred, they will require officers and inspectors to carry them out. Now, either a small municipality of this kind will have to be content with officers of an inferior character and too small a staff, or they will have

  1627
  to incur an expenditure for officials and inspectors altogether out of proportion to their means or to their population. The Commission which the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Bodmin presided over laid special stress upon the advisability of dissociating local influence from the officers entrusted with the enforcement of penal statutes. Now, the areas settled by this Bill should be wide enough to satisfy that requirement, and they should be wide enough and large enough to avoid any chance of undesirable local influences or jobbery, or of what has been termed "ward politics," or the accentuation of small local interests. While I believe and I hope that the District Board of Poplar is above suspicion in these matters, I think anyone who reads the local papers and the reports of the proceedings of vestries and district boards will get a very unfavourable impression on this subject, and it is clear that these local influences and this accentuation of small interests can only be avoided by forming bodies representing large areas where these local influences and in terests cannot obtain. I have no desire to detain the House further, or to enter into any points which can be properly discussed in Committee. There are such points as the burden of finance, and I think in this matter it is a fair claim that any expenditure thrown upon the local bodies in reference to the transfer of powers, that costs should be revised at fixed periods, for which there is no provision at present made in the Bill, and I agree with honourable Members opposite—and I do not know whether any honourable Member on this side has expressed the same opinion—that one of the reasons which deter people in the metropolis from taking active interest in the government of the various parts of London is the fact that they are bothered by too many elections, and instead of one-third of the Members retiring every year the whole body should retire every three years. I confess that I think it is desirable that some better method of auditing should be adopted than that which is contained in this Bill, but I do not want to enter now into any detailed criticism. Although the dominant note of my remarks may be criticism, yet I do not criticise because I am in any way hostile to the principle of the Bill, but because
  1628
  I wish to see this Measure have the fullest possible operation. I hope that the development of this Bill will provide that any municipal council created in any part of London will not have too small an area or too small a. population. Finally, I congratulate the Government upon their courage for having taken up this question, which has engaged the attention of endless Commissions and Committees, and which hitherto successive Governments have been somewhat afraid to deal with. I think, therefore, that it is a matter of general satisfaction in London that the Measure has at last been taken in hand by the First Lord of the Treasury himself.
  *MR. HALDANE: The House has listened with interest to the speech of the honourable Member who has just sat down, which was nothing if not moderate. It breathed a spirit of democratic conservatism, and its tone was similar to the sentiments which have come from this side of the House. But the speech of the honourable Member who represents the City, on the other hand, had, if he will allow me to say so, a fine old flavour of crusted Toryism which docs credit to his constituents. The honourable Member began his speech by expressing the gratitude of the electors of the City for this Bill. The City, he said, had desired these municipalities; and then he went on to say that when the Bill was passed the County Council would certainly see that they never could any more try to despoil the City of its ancient privileges. This is the inference which the honourable Member has drawn from the provisions of this Bill. To my mind the chief objection to this Bill, as regards that part of it which concerns the City, is not what it does not do—not that it leaves the City, in a sense, intact—but that it makes the work of the reformer almost an impossibility in the future. Therefore, from that point of view, Her Majesty's Ministers may be congratulated, from the point of view of the City, on the creation of these new municipalities, for they will surround the City with a sort of Praetorian guard which cannot easily be broken through by those who wish hereafter to tread the path way of reform. And when Her Majesty's Ministers next go to the Mansion House —although I am not in the confidence of the City—I think I can promise them

  1629
  a right Royal welcome from the City, not as far as the affairs of the Empire are concerned—nor as reformers of the great municipality of London—but as men who have rescued the City from all danger of attack upon its ancient privileges as an old and unreformed Corporation. The honourable Member for Bow and Bromley, however, took a different line. He represents a poor and needy part of London, and. if he will allow me to say so, I think he has done very good work in this House. But I noticed that the speech of the honourable Member was conspicuous by its silence upon those very topics which seem to trouble the honourable Member who preceded him in the Debate. There was not one word about privileges there, but, on the contrary, the whole speech of the honourable Member for Bow and Bromley was rather a criticism of the Government for leaving such small areas as the City, with its COO or 700 acres, instead of creating large areas which would do justice to what he conceived to be the democratic tendencies of this Bill. The honourable Member began his speech by saying that the Bill detracted nothing from the power of the County Council except in such matters as had been agreed upon at conferences, and he went on to say that there was one exception—a very notable exception—that of the Building Acts, of which a great deal will be heard in this Debate. I cannot think that the honourable Member has paid much attention to the deliberations of the County Council. because, as the result of the Conference of 1896, the County Council emphatically protested against the transfer, either exclusively or concurrently, of many of the powers which this Bill proposes to transfer, more particularly the power which municipal corporations now possess, the important power of making by-laws. That power will be exercised for the future concurrently by these new municipalities against the recommendation of the London County Council. Take, again, the power of enforcing the Shops Hours Act. which is an Act in which the honourable Member takes a great interest. That is transferred to these municipal bodies against the wishes of the London County Council. Then, again, there is the regulating and the keeping up to the standard of
  1630
  common lodging-houses throughout the metropolis, which has hitherto been exercised with great success by the County Council, and which power will be exercised in the different parts of the metropolis by these different boroughs. Passing from these two speeches to the general current of the Debate, the questions which were put by my right honourable Friend who moved this Amendment appeared to have been fairly and clearly answered. My right honourable Friend began by asking by what mandate has this Bill been brought in, and for what motive; and he was followed in the Debate by the honourable Member for Chelsea, who made a. speech which was marked not only by ability, but by candour. The honourable Member went on to say that it was perfectly true that at the last election for the London County Council there were issues raised which were germane to the issues raised by this Bill. He said quite truly that the question of the City was, on that occasion, not so prominent as it had been on former occasions. But he admitted that the question of the integrity of the powers of the London County Council and the question of the creation of the new municipalities were clearly before the electors. It was impossible for the honourable Member to have said otherwise in face of the memorable speech made by Lord Salisbury in the Albert Hall in November 1897, and the speech of the First Lord of the Treasury at Stepney, and the speech of the right honourable Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham at Camberwell, for all these speeches dealt with these issues. Of course, they dealt with the subject in different tones. The Prime Minister, who is nothing if not candid, told us that the County Council were affected with a megalomania which they ought to try to check: and then he went on to say that he was bound to admit that the process of checking might involve some kind of suicidal action on the part of the London County Council. The First Lord of the Treasury made a much more moderate speech, and I read that he clearly foreshadowed and gave an outline of the provisions of the Measure now brought forward. But the right honourable Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham took a different tone. He knew more about municipalities and the

  1631
  importance of their unity than did his colleagues, and he took refuge in a different sort of appeal to the electors to return the Moderate candidates at the coming election. He based his case for claiming votes for the Moderates not on the provision of the Bill which he foreshadowed, but rather on the fact that if London supported Her Majesty's Government by returning the Moderates it would be taken by the Government as a testimony of the desire of London to see that those in whose hands the integrity of the Empire was safe should be returned. Then came the elections, and instead of Moderates and Progressives being evenly balanced, there followed a large majority given to the Progressives on the County Council, and the emphatic verdict of the electors was against this system. Then the honourable Member for Chelsea went on to say that after all you make a great deal too much of the changes which this Bill makes, and he says, "Did you not propose something of the kind yourselves?" And he quoted the speech of the Member for East Fife in 1898, in which my right honourable Friend proposed the creation of local bodies in London. But we have always been in favour of creating local bodies, because we have always been in favour of carrying out the recommendations of the Courtney Commission appointed by the late Government, and which resulted in the Report which was framed by the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Bodmin. But the Report of that Commission and the speech of my right honourable Friend the Member for East Fife went upon very different lines from those adopted in this Bill. What is that unity in London which we desire to preserve, and which honourable Members on the other side desire to destroy? (Ministerial cries of "No, no!") Well, I am going to make that point good, and I am coming to close quarters in a moment. What is the difference between the proposition in this Bill and the propositions advocated in the Courtney Report and the policy put forward from this side of the House? The difference is this: That while you propose to take the administrative county of London and chop it into blocks, and make each block independent, as far as possible, of the other, and are weakening instead of strengthening the powers of the central
  1632
  control and co-ordination which exist in an imperfect form under the present system, which we propose to develop, we on the other side recognise what London is in fact, an organic whole which can be no more broken up than any other great city in the world, and which is as much deserving of being treated as one undivided area as either Paris, Vienna, or St. Petersburg. It has its distinct characteristics just as much as Liverpool, Birmingham, and Glasgow, which cannot be broken and parcelled out in the way you suggest without danger to the organic welfare of London. What will be the position of the residents in the different parts of London if this Bill is passed? Why there will be no longer the opportunity for a London resident to say, "I am a citizen of the great municipality of London." He will be a citizen of Fulham, of Hammersmith, of Battersea. or wherever else he may be, and he will be a citizen of a municipality which will have wholly different laws, different traditions, and different local customs and municipal spirit to that which prevails in other parts of the metropolis. When you work out what the propositions of this Bill really are you will see that it does nothing to enable or to encourage the different districts to act together. It proposes as its leading principle the division of the metropolis into so-called boroughs, which will diminish the central control, and that is the general proposition of the Bill. It does nothing to enable the richer parts to come to the assistance of the poorer districts, but it rather tends to separate them, and magnifying the differences and independence of the local bodies, brings in as the controlling influence a Government Department, the Local Government Board, instead of the County Council, which is the unifying influence at the present time. I ask the House not to separate London in this unjust fashion. What is the position of the tradesman in the West End? He-serves the necessities of the community by keeping a shop where he sells clothes or other goods, but where do the people who really make those clothes live? It is not only one or two people who keep that shop in the West End, but the workmen who live in the East End, and who are absolutely essential to the organic life of

  1633
  the metropolis. That tradesman who discharges these functions in the West End will probably go and live in other parts of London because it is cheaper, although he draws his sustenance from the richer parts of the metropolis which he serves by doing this work. The whole tendency of your modern legislation has been in the direction of recognising the different parts of London for many purposes as an integral whole. This Bill contains a clause which declares that the principle of the Equalisation of Rates Act will not be injured, and when you follow out the meaning of that expression "equalisation of rates," what, does it mean? It means that the richer parts of London should contribute to the necessities of the poorer parts; that is to say, that the burden should be distributed according to the necessities of the population. Now, you are introducing a new system, the whole tendency of which is not to combine, not to keep as a whole,. but to sever into parts, and to make it more difficult than ever to give to London the character of unity which will enable the poorer parts, not to feel that they have interests diverse from the richer parts, but to feel that they are bound up in one common welfare. Well, Sir, the Bill proposes to do this because of the way in which it treats the area upon which London is situated. In order to realise how' really extraordinary the character of this Bill is, one has to glance at the circumstances under which London is at present constituted. In 1835, one of the first acts of the Reformed Parliament was to pass the great Municipal Corporations Bill. From that Act the City of London was excluded; the metropolis, in fact, was not touched by it. The scheme of that Act was to deal with municipal corporations throughout the rest of the country. It took every district that was an urban district, an aggregate of houses, and it reformed the old-fashioned unreformed municipal corporations. These corporations had the most varying constitutions. Some were constituted by charter, some apparently without charter, or the charters were in many cases lost: they were subject to local laws and customs, and their franchises and arrangements were most diverse. The Act of 1835 did not touch their powers. It dealt with their constitutions and franchises, and
  1634
  extended their areas, so that they could take in houses round about where they were situated, and that Act laid the foundations of the modern municipal corporations. The provisions of that Act were altered, improved, and consolidated in the Municipal Corporations Act of 1882. The whole powers of the municipal corporations outside London were conferred by Acts like the Public Health Act, which added the powers which were so necessary for the development of the modern municipality, in the proper sense of the word. London was outside all this, and until 1855 nothing was done which in the least affected the character of London. In 1854 the Commission sat which has been alluded to in the course of these Debates—a Commission of a not very revolutionary character, which was presided over by Mr. Harry Labouchere, a distinguished Statesman, but by no means a man of such advanced principles as the honourable Member for Northampton. There were serving upon it Mr. Cornwall Lewis, afterwards Sir George Cornwall Lewis, and the third Commissioner was a distinguished judge, Mr. Justice Patterson. That Commission, though a very Conservative Commission, and though it reported in a very retrograde sense compared with the Commission which reported in 1837 specially upon London, still insisted that something extensive must be done, and what it did was to make recommendations, which did not receive effect, but which were followed next year by the Act of 1855, which embodied the policy of the Government of that day. Now, it is most instructive to read that Report, and to read the speech of Sir Benjamin Hall, who introduced the Bill of 1855. He pointed out what the government of London was. The City was unreformed and unextended in its area. Outside that, nothing existed except a series of confused local areas, created by a profusion of special Statutes, and ruled over by Commissioners. Between Charing Cross and Temple Bar, along the Strand, there were no fewer than seven bodies of Commissioners controlling the highway. Regent Street was under the control of two separate sets of Commissioners. One watered one side of the street, and the other watered the other side. Well, one did it in the morning, and the other

  1635
  in the evening, and eventually they quarrelled, and the result of the quarrel was that Regent Street was not watered properly at all. Sir Benjamin Hall recommended that a central board should be created, which should impart to London the character which he claimed for it—that of being a whole. He did not touch the reform of the City, for the sons of Zeruiah, even in those days, were too strong for him, but for the rest of London he recommended the creation of a central board, which should control and regulate the proceedings of the various district boards. That central board was not directly elected—that was its misfortune, and that, I believe, led to the ultimate failure of the Metropolitan Board of Works. I am not here to disturb what I fear must be called a dishonoured grave.
  SEVERAL HONOURABLE MEMBERS: No, no!
  *MR. HALDANE: I am here to go back upon the history of the Metropolitan Board of Works. Honourable Members opposite seem to have forgotten what it was that brought that piece of machinery for the organisation of the metropolis to an end. They have forgotten the attacks made upon it—the just attacks —by Lord Randolph Churchill in this House, which led to the appointment of the Herschell Commission, and the recommendation of the absolute necessity of the Government taking up the problem of London government as a whole. What followed? What followed was, that the Government of the day recognised that they must proceed to the solution of this problem: and they proceeded to its solution upon a basis which certainly was not satisfactory. Instead of following out what had been the recommendation of the previous Commission, and the policy of previous Governments, instead of taking the City and reforming it on the lines of the Municipal Corporations Act, and extending its areas so as to embrace the whole of London, and creating local bodies—because right through we have been in favour of the creation of these local bodies, to whom local powers should be delegated—in its area, and reforming its constitution so as to make it really representative of London, the Government of 1888 proceeded to treat London as though it was a rural, instead of being, as it certainly is, an urban, district, and did so by taking a piece of
  1636
  Surrey, a piece of Middlesex, and a piece of Kent, and so they created the modern county of London. That was a rural county. It was a rural county with peculiar features, but still it was constituted on the model of the county councils, and partook strictly of the nature of a county council. But although the Government of that day had not the time—or it may be that they thought the task too great for them—to constitute the district councils which were necessary to carry out what they intended, they announced most distinctly in the course of the Debate that such was their intention. They recognised what we say ought to be the true policy of this Bill, what we have insisted upon, and what we say was your policy until you departed from it upon this occasion—that London is a whole, and cannot be broken up into separate organisations, and the proper way is to treat it as a whole, with a central government of the same pattern and nature as the various local bodies into which you separate it for local purposes. If the Government had followed out the principle which underlay their legislation, then they would have done one of two things. They would have adhered to one notion consistently; they would have made London either what it was constituted by the Act of 1888, either a rural district with a county council—of a peculiar nature, no doubt, but still having all the powers of a county council, and with district councils —or they would have made it a great municipality with sub-municipalities, with local bodies to whom would be delegated those municipal powers which were properly exercised locally, and in that way they would have proceeded on the footing of consistency. They have done neither the one nor the other. They keep the principle of the county councils, they keep the rural principle, and at the same time they go and dot down on the administrative county so constituted a. number of municipalities of a town pattern, belonging more nearly to an urban character, which will exhaust and sub-divide its areas. They seem to desire to ride two horses, and two horses which go in different directions, and apparently they are of opinion that in the Act of 1888 they had been upon the wrong horse, upon this as upon other occasions.
  AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: A lively steed!
  *MR. HALDANE: Well, I presume that this Bill is intended to be final. We know that its motive is finality as regards the City. The City is to be delivered from the reformer, and the reformer is to have his right arm cut off so far as that is concerned. I presume, also, that finality is intended as regards these municipalities. I presume that the Government have not in view any future propositions for the further unification of London, of the creation of any other body from which they are going to carve out districts of administration. If that is so, I think their Bill has some disastrous consequences. Just let us look at it from one or two points of view; and I will try not to repeat what has been said by previous speakers in this Debate. The first point on which I am struck with the difficulties to which this Rill will give rise is on the question of finance. Now. London occupies, to my mind, not only a most remarkable but a most favourable position in respect to borrowing powers, and partly as the result of an accident. Honourable Members know that the County Council of London cannot borrow sixpence except by a Bill which comes before this House after being carefully revised and settled by the Treasury. The result has been that the Treasury has established a system of most complete and minute supervision over the finances of London, very much to the advantage of London. The County Council has as members of its body some of the most distinguished ex-representatives of the Treasury, and it has also the advantage of the control of the present officials of the Treasury. They have been able to give such good advice and to guide the County Council on such good principles that already, by common consent, the County Council is in the most favourable position as to its borrowing powers. The County Council borrows money at present at about 2 per cent. on its short loans, and on its longer loans at 2½ per cent. In other words, the finances of London are almost on as advantageous a footing as the finances of the Government itself. That is a matter which is not only one for sentimental congratulation, but is of the utmost im-
  1638
  portance to the ratepayers whom we have to consider, because, obviously, if the money which is necessary for improvements can be borrowed at 2½ per cent., and on short loans at 2 per cent., that diminishes the charge upon that already overburdened person who has to contribute to the rates of London. But what does this Bill propose? By, I think, clause 4, the power of consenting to borrowing by the new municipalities, by the vestries as it would be at present, is transferred from the London County Council to the Local Government Board. I ask, Mr. Speaker, why? So far as I know, there is no case in which the London County Council has unreasonably withheld its consent from borrowing by a vestry. There have been one or two small cases where the County Council has interfered to the great advantage of the vestries, but it has never interfered arbitrarily when they have wished to borrow money for public purposes. The result of that working together was this, that instead of the vestries raising their loans themselves, they went to the London County Council and got the advantage of that most solid credit and cheap rate of interest of which I have spoken. Now, what do the Government propose? We are going to have Fulham stock, and Hammersmith stock, and. I suppose. Poplar stock. My honourable Friend who sits below me represents a most admirable constituency, but one not famous for its wealth. I believe that its rates are higher than in any other part of the metropolis, and I should not expect that Poplar was able to borrow money at 2½ per cent. If this is really the new financial arrangement, there are sure to be most disastrous consequences. At all events, in point of finance, what advantage is it to have those matters transferred to the Local Government Board? In the case of municipalities, in the case of various other bodies where the consent of the Local Government Board is necessary to borrowing, the Local Government Board impose terms as to repayment of loans for improvements which are not permanent, which terms are of a very stringent character. Take the Electric Lighting Acts. Under these Acts local authorities have in many cases borrowed, and have borrowed largely in many parts of England, for

  1639
  the purpose of laying down electric lighting plant. Well, the Local Government Board impose as the term in which loans must be repaid either 25 years or 30 years—I forget which. But the London Count}' Council, knowing the people with whom they were dealing, and knowing the necessity for these things, and recognising their control over the finance, have extended the period of these loans to 42 years, and the result is that the municipal bodies when they come under this Bill and desire money for the purpose of developing electric light enterprise, will find that they are borrowing on much more onerous terms, by reason of the shortness of the period in which their loans must be repaid. I have spoken of finance. Now I turn to another topic, and it seems to me to be a very important thing. There is no more important code of legislation in London than the code which is known as the Consolidated Building Act. That is a Private Act of 1894. It was passed after most careful investigation by two Committees, one of this House, and the other of the House of Lords. The Committee of this House, I think, sat for many weeks before they finished their deliberations; and the result of the Act considered by these two Committees was to make a most careful distribution of powers under the Building Acts between the central and local authorities. It specified what powers the local authority should exercise, and what the County Council should keep in their own hands. Now, this Bill proposes to unrip all that was done then, and to put the distribution of powers under this Act at the mercy of the Privy Council, indicating no principle, no scheme, according to which the London County Council is to proceed, but simply leaving it to the mercy of the administrative body acting upon what principle they choose to lay down. There, again, you have a blow at what I call the real, not merely the sentimental, unity of London. Take another case. I have spoken of equalisation. There is a most glaring case of imperfect safeguard in clause 8. Clause 8 provides that powers may be transferred from the County Council to the local authorities, in the first instance by agreement between the County Council and the particular local authority, followed by a Provisional Order. After
  1640
  that is done—the Provisional Order to which I have referred is in clause 5—the Local Government Board may, if they think fit, on the application of any borough council, make an order for transfer. Clause 8 says—
  "Where any power or duty is transferred from the London County Council to a borough council by or under this Act, the borough council shall defray as part of their ordinary expenses the expenses of and incidental to the power or duty, but the County Council shall contribute to the borough council in respect of those expenses, such amount, if any (whether capital or annual) as may—
  "(a) If the transfer is made by this Act, be agreed on between the councils within six months after the transfer, or, in default of agreement, be finally determined by the Local Government Board."
  What does that mean? Does it mean that the county is to contribute in proportion to the work done? Does it mean that you are to have there the principle of equalisation, that the County Council is not to be bound to have regard to how much money is raised by the locality itself, in a case where they consider that the locality would be overburdened by having to contribute in proportion to its rateable value as distinct from the necessities of its population? Does it mean that the Local Government Board are to act on such a principle as that? If so, all would be well; but the clause steadily leaves that at large, and you may have the contribution to be made on no fixed principle at all, but upon a purely arbitrary footing, to have no regard whatever to the principle which underlies the equalisation of rates, and leaves the poorer localities at the disadvantage from which they suffer from being poorer localities, without any contribution at the expense of those which are richer. Take another objection to this clause. Look at the enormous irregularity of it. Power is transferred to one local authority for certain purposes in case they ask for it. Perhaps none of the others intervene. The result is that you will have these powers exercised in some places by the County Council, in others by the local authority, and you will have absence of uniformity everywhere. Then, again, take the question of audit. Now, this Bill does not provide for the audit of the accounts of the new borough councils by any Government auditor. In other words, it departs altogether from the principle which the Government applied when they passed the Act of 1888

  1641
  to the councils which their legislation then constituted. I ask, why? The London County Council is subject to the strictest audit. Why should not these new borough councils be subject to that audit? I think here again I can throw a little light upon that. These municipalities constitute what I have ventured to describe as a bodyguard to the City. As far as possible, they are likened to the City. If the audit were applied to them, it would be difficult not to apply it to the City. Now, the City is not audited, and would strenuously object to that; and, therefore, I presume the Government have not thought right to subject these new bodies to the audit to which they would naturally be subject but for the fact that the City would inevitably, much against its wishes, have to submit to it. These are small points taken singly, but cumulatively they amount to much. There are many things not only committed in, but omitted from, this Bill. I think that some attempt might have been made to simplify the finances of London in point of rating. True, there is a clause which talks as though there was going to be a single rate, but it only says that one paper is to be issued for sending in a number of different demands. I should have thought it possible to simplify the rating of London, which is already grotesque and complicated enough. London raises some £12,000,000 yearly for its local necessities—School Board Kate, Metropolitan Asylums Kate, and the different rates which are raised by other bodies. Of this the County Council raises about £2,000,000, of which £1,000,000 goes for borrowing purposes, and the other for the expenses of general administration. I should have thought it would have been possible to introduce something like order into that chaos. The citizen should know what he has to contribute in the way of yearly contributions to the necessities of the city in which he lives. That is not the policy of this Bill. It introduces municipalities which are not municipalities, not like anything that we are aware of in any other part of the country, not like municipalities which exist under the Municipal Corporations Act, but which are municipalities more in name than in fact. You weaken and belittle the County Council. It will not be so easy in the future as in the past, it will not be possible to get these distinguished
  1642
  men to serve upon this somewhat attenuated body in the same spirit that they have served hitherto, and destroys the sentimental unity of London as well as the practical unity. No more will a man have the sense that he is the citizen of a great city, one and undivided, with single attributes and a single spirit of government. But worst of all, to my mind, is as to the future. Somehow or another, the people of London will continue to govern themselves under this Bill. They may be hampered, but they will succeed in carrying on the administration of their affairs. But all prospects for the future are shut out. The Bill will stereotype the existing state of things. It makes reform almost impossible in the City, and extremely difficult in the case of the new corporations which the Bill seeks to set up. If you should find it necessary to attempt to strengthen the central organisation of London, you will be confronted by a new set of vested interests which have grown up. We have watched the history of the London County Council. I have never thought of it as a perfect body, but I have thought of it as a body which has effected great and remarkable changes, and, not the least, the conversion of many of the Moderates into Progressives, and some of the Progressives into Moderates. It has shown a singular capacity for continuity of policy in administration; and whatever we may say about fixity of policy in other things, in this kind of administration it is, up to a certain limit, a necessity. We have watched it; we have seen order come out of chaos, purity out of corruption, energy out of listlessness. We have seen it do its work carefully, in such a fashion that London has begun to have something like a common public spirit, and its citizens have begun to wake up to the fact that they have a common city and common interests to defend. This seems to me now to be in jeopardy. I would hope against hope that this Bill may not be pressed by the Government in its present form. I would trust that they may be willing in the course of the discussions which will ensue, not merely in this House, but outside this House—in that great municipality of London, the real municipality, although not so in law, in which we live—I would trust that the discussions which will ensue will convince the Government that in this

  1643
  Bill they have gone too far, have acted without any mandate, and on motives which do not commend themselves to the citizens among whom they live. I trust it is not too late. I trust that it will be possible by Amendment in Committee, in the course of the future progress of this Bill, at any rate, to lessen some of the mischiefs which I have endeavoured to indicate to the House, and which, I fear, will constitute a serious barrier to the future welfare of London.
  *EARL PERCY (Kensington, S.): A great deal of criticism has been levelled by honourable Members opposite against the provisions of this Bill, to which I wish to add my own quota in a perfectly friendly spirit. I listened very carefully to the very brilliant speech of the honourable and learned Gentleman who last spoke, and I confess that although in regard to many points his arguments were cogent to the details of the Bill, I do not see that there is any single one of those points upon which he laid special stress which might not perfectly well be raised in Committee, or which should in any way be permitted to endanger the principle of the Bill, which is all we are considering on Second Reading. If I may say so without impertinence, I do not think it is possible to imagine an attack upon the principle of a Measure, on the Second Reading of a Bill of this kind, based on grounds more utterly irrelevant than those put forward by the right honourable Gentleman the Member for West Leeds. To give only two instances: he began by stating at the very outset of his speech that he objected to the proposals of the Government on the ground that the transfer which was intended of powers to the local corporations would inflict a serious and almost irreparable blow upon the position of the London County Council. He went on to say that these local corporations, after these powers had been transferred, would never be in possession, in control, of any of the great powers which the great municipalities of Manchester and Liverpool enjoyed. If it be true that the London County Council is such an important body as honourable Members opposite would have us believe—and I think we are quite willing to believe—and if it be true that these powers which are to be transferred to the local corporations are, after all, so very7 re-
  1644
  stricted, then this Bill cannot reasonably be said to be a very grave attack upon the London County Council. Then he asked us why it was that the Government had not approached the London County Council; but he answered that question himself by telling us that at the last London County Council election the electorate had already decided upon the Government programme, and that the Government had no mandate for the Bill. It is quite clear, therefore, that if the electors had already decided on the Government programme, it was no good to ask the London County Council to express an opinion on the Bill. But even supposing that the majority of the London County Council is opposed to the Bill, why are we to ignore the opinion of all those who are favourable to this Measure, and who are elected on a franchise immeasurably wider than that of the London County Council? What is the Amendment that is before the House? As I understand it, it makes two charges against the proposal of the Government. It asserts, in the first place, that the Bill disturbs without simplifying the present system of London Government; and, in the second place, that it will render more difficult, if not impossible, the attainment of the idea of honourable Gentlemen opposite for the future unification of London. It is hardly necessary that we should be assured by honourable Gentlemen opposite that this Bill disturbs the present system. I cannot understand any reform being accomplished which will not disturb the existing system, and I am rather astonished to hear such a very ultra-Tory sentiment coming from honourable Gentlemen opposite. They might have quieted their fears by the recollection that of all the Bills that have been carried through this House this is the one which disturbs the existing municipal arrangements the least. The Bill of 1856 completely revolutionised the whole of London government. It transferred the whole powers of the Commissioners of Sewers to the Metropolitan Board of Works. The Bill of 1888 carried reform still further by substituting the London County Council for the Metropolitan Board of Works. Both of these Bills were deliberate attempts to smash the existing state of things. A little later in history we come to the recommenda-

  1645
  tion of the Royal Commission of 1894. If the recommendation of that Commission had been carried into effect the process of attack on the London County Council would have been carried still further, for it would have altered the franchise. What does this Bill do? It leaves the City practically untouched. It does not affect the London County Council except in so far as it proposes to relieve it of a few powers which it is not excessively anxious to retain. And in regard to the vestries, it does not really propose any change which has not been substantially advocated by all reformers. The argument that we are to reject the Bill because it disturbs the present system is ridiculous. I am inclined to wonder if it was not due to a mistake in drafting the Amendment, that the word "not" was left out before the word "disturbed." The real reason of the opposition to this Bill by honourable Gentlemen opposite is that it does not disturb the existing state of things enough. If the Bill had gone a little farther, and had included the City, and absorbed it into the London County Council, it would not only not have had their opposition, but would have secured their enthusiastic welcome. Then we come to the assertion that this Bill does not simplify the present system of London government. That is not a question of opinion, but of fact. In at least four different directions this Bill must simplify local arrangements. In the first place, whereas you now have the powers under the Adoptive Act exercised by a variety of local bodies, you will in future assign all these powers to the corporation. Instead of the present overlapping of civil and ecclesiastical affairs, you will place the control of secular matters in the hands of the councils, and the control of ecclesiastical matters in the hands of the churchwardens and parishioners. Any conflict of jurisdiction which now exists as between the London County Council and the vestries will cease as between the Council and the new corporations, and, lastly, in the place of a number of different rating authorities through which the spending authority has now to issue its precepts, you will, if the Bill passes, have only one. I admit, however, that the process of simplification is not carried far enough, and that it is a pity that it is not
  1646
  carried even further than the Bill proposes to do. I will illustrate my meaning by referring to sub-sections 3, 4, and 5 of clause 5. I understand that the Government have come to the conclusion on their own responsibility that a transfer of certain powers from the London County Council to the municipal corporations is desirable on its own merits. These powers may be roughly described under three heads. First, the powers contained in the first portion of the schedule which are to be exercised by the corporations alone; second, the powers under the second part of the schedule which are to be exercised by the municipal corporations concurrently with the London County Council; and, lastly, the powers as to the maintenance of main roads, the enforcement of by-laws, and the power to promote and oppose Bills in Parliament. All these powers will be transferred to the corporations. I believe that at the Westminster Conference a common agreement was come to between every one of the vestries, that all these powers, with the possible exception of the administration of the Act of 1890 relating to the Housing of the Working Classes, should be transferred to, and exercised in the future by the boroughs. In regard to the powers that are not mentioned in the schedule or the clauses of the Bill, the transference of these powers is left to the discretion of the Local Government Board. But that discretion is limited in a rather curious way. Not a single one of the powers can be handed over to the municipal corporations by the Local Government Hoard without the consent of the London County Council. On the other hand, the moment the London County Council hands over any power to a corporation any other corporation can apply to the Local Government Board, and also get a transfer of these powers. I can hardly conceive machinery more directly calculated to prevent the transfer of these powers. And for this reason, that not only will the vestries be confronted with the natural reluctance of the London County Council to part with a share of its power, but with all the abstract theories exhibited of late years to concentrate in its own hands the powers of the vestries. I submit to the Government that it is a great pity to give the London County Council an absolute veto-

  1647
  of that kind. It seems to me that the London County Council is disqualified from exercising that veto on two grounds. In the first instance, it is personally interested in the transfer, and is, therefore, not likely to take an independent and impartial view of the matter any more than the municipal corporations themselves; and, in the second place, the decisions of the London County Council are notoriously influenced by Party considerations. Questions of London local government ought to be kept as far as possible from Party considerations, and should be settled by the House of Commons on broad, impartial lines. I cannot see on what principle we are to say that the Local Government Board is qualified to prevent concessions of this kind, and yet not qualified to confer concessions. What you are practically proposing by the Bill to do is to make the Local Government Board a kind of guardian angel over the London County Council to prevent it from parting with any share of its patrimony in a fit of generosity, while you give the Local Government Board absolutely no power to intervene to further the legitimate aspirations of the smaller municipalities. It does seem to me that, considering one of the main objects of this Bill is to increase interest in local life as far as possible, it is a pity that we cannot call in the Local Government Board to decide on concessions of local autonomy as well as in protecting the London County Council in keeping power in its own hands. I frankly admit that, to a great extent, I share the views of honourable Gentlemen opposite as to the effects of this Bill. I think it would be absurd to represent this Bill, as some honourable Members on our side of the House are inclined to do, as merely a harmless Bill for conferring birthday honours on the general local government staff of the metropolis. On the other hand, it would be equally wrong to represent it as a great and revolutionary change in London municipal life. It will not detract seriously from the powers and authority of the London County Council; and it will not add much to the power and authority of the new corporations. It will create a system under which, in a year's time, after the election of 1900, we shall have in every area of London a body exer-
  1648
  cising complete authority on eyery matter distinctly within its own province, and enjoying a certain local dignity in proportion to the size and importance of its rateable area. That may have the effect—we all hope it will—of increasing the amount of individual interest and ambition in the administration of local affairs such as we find displayed in the provinces. Whether it will have that effect or not may depend upon the peculiar position of each part of London. This charge of apathy in local affairs, of which we complain in London, is by no means confined to London. It is shared by every centre of municipal Government on the Continent in which a similar condition of things to that which prevails in this metropolis exists. In Berlin, no doubt, the apathy is due to the concentration of the electoral power in the hands of the propertied classes. In Paris, on the other hand, the apathy is said to be largely due to the splitting up of the electoral areas into small parts, and to the practice of requiring candidates to be resident in the electoral districts for which they stand. It is also said to be largely due to the concentration of the executive powers in a small body. That seems to be the condition of things which obtains in London. I know that the noble Marquess at the head of the Government has expressed the opinion that the apathy of London was mainly due to the political atmosphere which surrounded the elections of the London County Council. That may be so, but it does not explain the fact that the same apathy exists in a more marked degree in connection with the elections of the vestries. I think it is partly due to the fact that the electoral areas are too small, and partly to the fact that the powers vested in the local bodies are not sufficient to attract men of ambition. If that be the case, it will be largely remedied by the present Bill. Apart from that, I would vote for the present Bill, if only on the ground that it removes a stigma that the unremunerated services given to the administration of local affairs in London have never been recognised at a properly high value. The Leader of the Opposition, on the First Reading of the Bill, and the honourable Member for West Leeds, both rather scoffed at what they called the empty boast of Lord Salisbury that he

  1649
  would smash the London County Council; and seemed to think that the mountain had laboured to produce on this occasion a mouse. We all know that those words used by the Prime Minister were not intended in the sense which has been attributed to them. I am inclined to think that what the Prime Minister did intend will be very effectively carried out by the Bill. The Bill will not smash the London County Council. It' I thought that it would do so, I would not vote for it, for I think that, beyond all controversy, the London County Council has conferred immense benefits on London municipal life. But the Bill will prevent any tendency on the part of the London County Council to overstep its legitimate limits, and to starve the interest in local life by concentrating public attention entirely on its own proceedings. I wish to note what, in my opinion, is a grave omission in the Bill—the only important omission, and I regret it. The Bill does not make provision for the representation of the vestries on the London County Council, and in doing so, the Government have rejected the opinion of the westminster Conference in favour of the opinion of the small Conference at Islington. If we are to be guided by the wishes of the majority of the people of London, there can be no question which of these Conferences represents the real sentiment of London. The first Conference at Westminster represented a population of 2½ millions, and a rateable value of over 20 millions. The second Conference at Islington represented a population of only l½ million, and a rateable value of scarcely 9 millions sterling. The. first Conference was attended by all the representatives from the scheduled areas mentioned in the Report of 1894. The second Conference was attended practically by representatives of the minor areas—not one of which would have had its status altered even if the recommendations of that Commission had been carried out. Therefore, there can be no doubt that the Westminster Conference represented the vast majority of the people of London. I would like to point out that while it is true that the Royal Commission of 1894 did not propose to give a representation of the vestries on the London County Council, they did propose that representatives of the London
  1650
  County Council should sit on the vestries. The important point to notice is, that every authority which has spoken, at all events lately, has been in favour of some such link between the administrative system of London as that which I now propose. The Government, however, have decided against it. The First Lord of the Treasury, in dealing with this question on the First Reading, made use of the somewhat theoretic objection that by introducing this system we should introduce the old anomaly of indirect representation. That is undoubtedly true, but whatever force the argument possesses is derived from the analogy which the First Lord attempted to draw between what he described as the failure of the Metropolitan Board of Works and the future corporations. I see no such analogy at all.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: All I said was that the fact that indirect representation had failed in the case of the Metropolitan Board of Works might create a prejudice in the minds of the ratepayers of London against re-establishing a similar system in the case of the London County Council.
  *EARL PERCY: I accept the right honourable Gentleman's correction; but I do not think it. materially alters my point. The fact that the Metropolitan Board of Works was not directly elected may or may not have been largely responsible for the failure of that Board. There might have been something in that argument if you had proposed under this Bill to adopt the recommendation of the Royal Commission of 1894, and do away with the presence of aldermen in the London County Council. But so far from proposing to carry out that suggestion, you are proposing to re-introduce the aldermanic element into the new municipal corporations—for which, I believe, none of them have asked in an even more extended form than it exists in the present London County Council. I doubt very much whether the failure of the Metropolitan Board of Works was due to the fact of indirect, election. It seems to me to have been far more largely due to the fact that they had only a very narrow area to select from, whereas the new corporations will practically have an unlimited field to select from. Well, I will also pass over the argument that if

  1651
  we gave a representation to the vestries on the London County Council it would actually diminish the influence the vestries already possessed. That does not seem to me likely, considering that although many vestries already possess indirectly a representative on the London County Council, no one proposes at the present moment to pass a law that no man must at the same time have a seat on the vestries and on the London County Council. And no one suggests that such a. law would increase the influence of the vestries. In my opinion, the usefulness of the London County Council would be increased if its duties and responsibility were shared by representatives of the municipal corporations. I pass on to the argument that by introducing this indirect element we should be involving the municipal corporations in all the worry and turmoil of political elections such as those which surround the London County Council. I admit at once that if that would really be the effect of such a provision, it would be fatal to my proposal. I am utterly unable, however, to see how that would be the effect. That local elections are likely to be more and more dominated in the future by political considerations, I do not doubt; but how that danger can be accentuated by the present Bill I cannot imagine. Let us suppose that in any particular year some 24 Members presented themselves for election to the local corporation, and that at the moment of election there is a burning question at issue between the local corporation and the London County Council, the election would be determined by political considerations, whatever system might be proposed in the Bill. But supposing there was no such burning question, does anyone believe that an election of that kind would be likely to be determined by general considerations affecting the London County Council rather than by those small matters which are perpetually cropping up, and which come directly within the purview of, and are felt by, every resident in the district? Such an idea runs counter to all experience. We know that even in Parliamentary elections there is the greatest difficulty in keeping to Imperial questions. These considerations are nearly always subordinated to that which affects the electors' own
  1652
  pockets. On every ground, therefore, I really hope that the Government may see their way to consider this question before the Bill reaches the Committee stage. That is the only question of detail which really affects the principle of the Bill. The Prime Minister a. short time ago drew a very poetical analogy between the present vestries and the London County Council. He compared the vestries to the limbs of the human body, and the London County Council to the trunk; and he said that the body was starved when all the life blood was concentrated in the stomach. That is to say, that the London County Council has completely overshadowed local life, and has become the stronger member, and has starved the life of the vestries. From that point of view I hope the Government will reconsider its policy in this matter. I do not regard it as an absolutely vital question; but it is an important one. I think the Bill is an enormously valuable one in itself, and the stimulus which it will give to local life will, as a matter of fact, render it absolutely impossible to prosecute the policy of honourable Gentlemen opposite. It certainly will not, as some of them have said, prevent them, if ever they have the misfortune to sit on the Ministerial side of the House again—as I suppose they will some day—from altering and revising the powers and the areas; and it will not prevent them from absorbing the City in the London County Council in the future. But it will absolutely prevent them proposing, as the right honourable Gentleman the Member for Monmouth did in 1884, to smash the remaining vestries, and to concentrate their powers in the hands of the London County Council. That will be impossible, not because we are now creating the vestrymen councillors, and the chairman of vestries mayors, but because the whole trend of pubic opinion is in favour of the Government policy, and antagonistic to that of honourable and right honourable Gentlemen opposite.
  MR. BUXTON: There was one part of the very interesting and admirable speech of the noble Lord with which I cordially agreed, and that was when he spoke of the unfortunate apathy which no doubt exists to a. very large extent with regard to local elections in London. If I thought this Bill, bad or good, would

  1653
  do something to diminish the local apathy of London, I certainly would give it my most hearty support. Now, Mr. Speaker, some of us have been wondering why some responsible Member of the Government has not seen lit to take part in the the bale this evening. We have now had two nights' Debate in regard to this matter—namely, on the first Reading and this evening, and only the First Lord has spoken; and if he will allow me to say so, though his speech was a very interesting one, it did not give that view of the Bill which has come home to many of us since we have had the opportunity of examining its details. I think the speech of my right honourable Friend the Member for Leeds, and the remarks he made in regard to the Bill, are entitled to some reply from some Member of the Government. We have been twitted by one or two honourable Gentlemen with having taken a different attitude than we did on the First Reading of this Bill. The reason is the very simple one, that the more we have looked into the Bill the less we like it. There were points made by my honourable Friend behind me which I do not say cannot be answered, but, until they are answered, give us the impression that the Bill is not exactly what we thought after the speech of the right honourable Gentleman when he first introduced it. Certainly the trend of the speeches this evening, and particularly the speech of the honourable Member for Chelsea, of the noble Lord, and of others, has been in the direction of minimising the importance of this Bill. They have every one of them stated that it is not directed against the London County Council. I am quite willing to admit that there are some very good points in the Bill as it stands. I think every one of us on both sides of the House desires to get rid of the opprobrious name of "vestrymen," and to confer further dignity and power on the local bodies throughout London. I think, at all events, there are two good things in this Bill. In the first place, it reduces the number of those who are managing our local affairs, because I am quite sure if the numbers are reduced we shall get better men; and, in the second place, it concentrates the power and duties which are at present spread over many bodies. My honourable Friend the Member for
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  Chelsea quoted the speech of my right honourable Friend the late Home Secretary, in which he spoke of preserving the dignity and power of these local bodies. We are all at one with regard to that matter, but the essential difference between us is this—that we desire to confer these powers in connection with a, reform which would have completed the edifice of London government. The right honourable Gentleman the First Lord, in his opening speech, said he thought this was completing the edifice, but he omitted one very important matter—namely, any provision dealing with the City. That, to my mind, makes all the difference in regard to the attitude which we take up in reference to this matter, because if the City had been included, and if there had been no question of creating this larger Westminster, it would have been possible, with one predominant body in the centre, to confer, without any danger, greater powers on local bodies than we can under present circumstances. The City is to remain in existence as an enemy to progress in London, as it always has been. (Ministerial cries of No!) Well, I can only say that it would be difficult, to show that it has not been due to the City of London that we are 50 years behind in regard to our municipal privileges and liberties. The City has always been opposed to municipal reform in London for fear the edifice of the City should be attacked. The result has been that, from year to year. London becomes more and more one large metropolis. Unfortunately, one part of London has been getting richer and another part has been getting poorer. From year to year we find a greater division between wealth and poverty, between capital and labour, between those who are employing and those who are employed, between different trades, classes, and sections, and the result is that you get less and less of real local interest in a district and greater need for a general central body. Now. I do not wish at this late hour of the evening, after what has been already said, to go into the question of whether or no it is the object and desire of the Government to attack the London County Council. My honourable Friend the Member for Chelsea repudiated, on his behalf, as a Moderate

  1655
  member of the London County Council, any such intention, and I can only say that Lord Salisbury and the Members of the Government, a couple of years ago, were very much misunderstood, and ought to be commiserated on that account; but the electors, whatever might have been the intention of right honourable Gentlemen opposite, certainly took their speeches to represent the view that they wished to disintegrate, to a large extent, the London County Council. The effect of the County Council elections was certainly intended to show that they did not desire that the power of the London County Council should be in any way interfered with. I do not wish to go into that again, but I do want to ask the right honourable Gentleman in charge of this Bill to explain one or two points which have been raised in the course of the Debate in regard to the position of the London County Council and these local bodies—a point which seems to some of us to be of great importance. He repudiates any desire to attack the London County Council, and, to my mind, therefore, this is a matter which requires some very considerable explanation before we can accept the statement that the Bill is not intended in any way to weaken the position of the central Metropolitan body. Now, in the first place, I submit that it is a curious thing that these local bodies are to be called municipalities instead of urban district councils, which the Government themselves, many years ago, intended to call them, because it seems to me that it invites them to think that they are separated and isolated bodies, and that they have their own local life and local feeling, when as a. matter of fact, they can only use it as a whole. There are three points to which attention has been already drawn. One of the most important, to my mind, is the question of transfer of power. Now, the noble Lord, in the course of his speech, seemed to me to hit upon one or two blots with regard to this Bill which certainly require explanation, and which seem to me to show that the clause is absolutely unworkable as it stands. But the line of opposition which I shall take in regard to this matter is this. The right honourable Gentleman said that we had exaggerated its importance. What we on the Opposition side of the House fear is that the
  1656
  clause may be used by those on the Council desiring to play into the hands of those who intend to weaken the Council, to transfer powers from it to the local bodies which ought not to be transferred. Everyone understands that there ought to be power given to the London County Council to transfer such powers when such a step can be taken to the general advantage. But no such transfer ought to take place without publicity. I would specially call the attention of the right honourable Gentleman the Leader of the House to this matter, because I understood him to say we had exaggerated its importance. The importance I attached to it was due to the fact that the powers can be transferred without publicity. I cannot help thinking, when the right honourable Gentleman sets up a most elaborate machinery, under which powers can be transferred and cannot be re-transferred to the County Council, it is desirable to consider whether this clause cannot be so reconstructed that there shall be adequate and proper publicity in regard to these matters. It is shown conclusively that the power of borrowing conferred by this Bill will be a great detriment to the ratepayers of the whole of London and of the locality in particular.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREA-SURY: They can borrow from the County Council.
  MR. BUXTON: Yes, but surely the object of this clause is to encourage them to borrow on their own initiative. I think it is important that there should be one central body under proper audit to control the borrowing of money throughout the metropolis. Then, with regard to the question of promoting Bills in Parliament, we have had no explanation as to what is the object of giving the new councils this power. So far as I know, there has never been a complaint on the part of the localities that any proposal they wanted introduced into a London County Council Bill had not been accepted and introduced. We want to protect the ratepayers from the cost which would be incurred by 25 or 30 municipalities promoting their own Bills in Parliament at our expense as ratepayers, and at the expense of our time as Members. When these municipalities are created, the power of pro-

  1657
  moting and opposing Bills in Parliament may be used in the interest of the great monopolies. The London County Council ought to be the supreme body, and ought not to have their hands tied or forced by the action of the local authorities. There is another matter on which I trust the right honourable Gentleman may be able to see his way to meet us to a certain extent; that is, that all the powers transferred to these bodies should be more specifically scheduled in the Bill. It is very difficult indeed to understand this Bill as it stands. The whole of the Bill is by reference, and how the unfortunate member of the new municipality, when he is elected, is to understand what his duties or his powers are, passes, I think, the wit of man. I think it is unfortunate that three Acts—the Metropolis Management Act, the Municipal Corporations Act, and the Local Government Act of 1888—should have been mixed up for the creation of these new bodies. I should have thought it would have been better to have created them under the Local Government Act of 1888 as district councils. The right honourable Gentleman said, in his speech, that the new councils would be practically identical with the municipalities throughout the country, but I think he can hardly argue that they will have anything like the powers now enjoyed by municipalities outside London. The only three points taken from the Municipal Corporations Act—the audit, the question of aldermen, and annual instead of triennial elections—are all had: and, in fact, that Act has nothing to do with these bodies. As to boundaries, I think it is to be regretted that the Government have not taken a little more trouble to specify in the Bill a larger number of municipalities which are to be created. They have actually omitted some of those which were named, and very properly named, by the Royal Commission of 1894. The objection we find to the present Bill is that too wide a discretion is left to the Commissioners, only 16 districts being specified in the schedule. We do not even know who these gentlemen will be: but we think the Government might very well have scheduled at the
  1658
  least another six or eight districts, leaving comparatively few unscheduled, and thereby making pretty clear the basis on which the Boundaries Commissioners would have to act. At present the unfortunate districts do not know on what basis they will be formed into municipalities. The directions to the Commissioners are very vague, and the Government are in this respect evading a responsibility which they ought to have taken in their own hands. The transference of power from the central to the local authorities will throw greater cost on the poorer districts, and relieve tike richer districts of part of the cost they now have to bear, and the richer districts will, in consequence, have a great temptation to go to the County Council and ask for the transfer of powers. There is one point which affects my own constituency. Under this Bill the main roads are to be transferred from the central to the local authority, and this without any pecuniary assistance on the part of the central to the local body. In Poplar there are two great main roads, covering some miles, and I believe the charge for maintaining them is something like £8.000 or £9,000 a year. I should like to know whether, as the Bill now stands, that charge will be taken away from the general fund and thrown upon the very poor district which I represent?
  THE FIRST LORD OF TUB TREASURY: The cost of maintaining the main roads will not be thrown upon the local authority, but will be borne, as at present, by the central authority.
  MR. BUXTON: Then I have no objection to the sub-section. Another serious effect of this transfer of powers will be that in many of the poorer districts the powers, though transferred, will not be carried out as efficiently as they are under the present arrangement. As regards a considerable number of these powers, I think that it is of the utmost importance that those who carry them out should be above any suspicion of local influence, that the inspectors should be absolutely free, and should be the servants not of the locality, but of the central authority. I also fear that when this Bill is passed the richer muni-

  1659
  cipalities will be opposed to any extension of the principle of the equalisation of rates. Therefore, though I admit that this Bill has some good points, I fear that one of its results will be that a greater burden will be thrown on the poorer districts, and the richer districts will be relieved. We all admit that one of the greatest social evils of the metropolis is that the rich live in one part and the poor in another, and I think we also agree that the richer districts, having, to a great extent, got rid of their poor ought to pay for their relief. I do not think the Bill is likely to effect that object. There are a good many other points we shall have to discuss in detail in Committee, but I am afraid I cannot take a very sanguine view of the position of those local bodies in regard to the London County Council. It is said that it is not intended to diminish efficiency or destroy the power of the County Council, but it is curious that any proposal of the County Council for the improvement of the condition of the people is generally opposed by honourable Members opposite. I cannot help thinking that there will be some diminution of the position of the County Council, and therefore I shall vote for the Amendment. We shall, however, endeavour to so improve this Bill in Committee as to make it, if possible, a real step forward in London government.
  SIR J. BLUNDELL MAPLE (Camber-well, Dulwich): I have paid a great deal of attention to this particular subject, and I have listened very attentively to the speeches which have been made on the other side of the House, but I have not heard a single speech against the proposal that greater local life and administrative work is required. In fact, I am sure every honourable Member in his heart welcomes some further local government for London. Honourable Members who have spoken have told us that they will accept this Bill, but that it will have to be altered in Committee. I believe a great many alterations will have to be made in the Bill in Committee. I am of the same opinion as the noble Lord below me, the Member for South Ken-
  1660
  of municipalities coming on to the County Council. As the clause dealing with this matter stands at present, this Bill seems to be rather an impossible Bill. I am one of them who believe in maintaining the strength of the London County Council as the central authority, and should consider it right and proper that that body should be the custodian of the common county fund. I think also that when any work is to be delegated from the County Council to the new municipalities the money they are to spend should be settled at the same time. It would also be an advantage if there were on the County Council a representative of these new bodies. I must say I cannot see the advantage of having aldermen on the municipalities, but it would be a great advantage if one man were chosen as a representative who should go as alderman to the County Council. In dealing with the delegation of powers, it seems to me that the Government have gone wrong in clause 5, because they do not clearly set out that when work is transferred the County Council should agree as to the amount of money that is to go from the common county fund to pay the expenses of carrying out that work. You cannot expect the new councils to execute the work unless this point is settled. If you do not give them the money the new municipalities will be out of pocket. Our friends on the other side seem to contemplate that these new municipalities are to carry out these works without getting the money to pay for them. That was never anticipated, I am certain, in the Government Bill. Under clause 5 of this Hill if the London County Council were unwilling to transfer further powers there would be no means of forcing them, and in the event of the new municipalities not carrying out the powers which had been transferred to them in a proper manner, there would be no way of getting those powers taken back again. In my Bill I proposed that these powers should be transferred for three years only, to see how they were discharged by the new councils. There are common duties which must remain centralised to a

  1661
  of sewerage, and of tramways—but the councils of the new boroughs could assist a great deal by a system of delegation, the new municipalities undertaking work which would relieve the committees of the London County Council. I am of opinion that clause 6 is not desirable. The duties of the Building Acts Committee are very difficult, and the work of the 65 district surveyors would become very complicated. One of these surveyors is at pre-sent looking after work which would be in four of these municipalities. Consequently, he would not only have to render an account of each of the four municipalities respecting the different houses in those districts, but he would also have to report to the London County Council.
  And, it being Midnight, the Debate stood adjourned.
  Debate to be resumed upon Thursday.

REPORT OF SUPPLY.
  SUPPLY [20th MARCH].
  Resolution Reported.
  SUPPLY [20th MARCH].
    CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS, 1899–1900 (VOTE ON ACCOUNT).
    "That a sum, not exceeding £14,781,000, be granted to Her Majesty, on account, for or towards defraying the charges for the Civil Services and Revenue Departments for the year ending on the 31st day of March 1900, viz.:—

    CIVIL SERVICES.
    CLASS II.

    £

    Colonial Office

    17,500

    CLASS I.

    Royal Palaces and Marlborough House

    16,400

    Royal Parks and Pleasure Gardens

    40,000

    Miscellaneous Legal Buildings
    Great Britain

    18,000

    Houses of Parliament Buildings

    12,000

    Art and Science Buildings, Great Britain

    10,000

    Diplomatic and Consular Buildings

    9,000

    £

    Revenue Buildings

    120,000

    Public Buildings, Great Britain

    100,000

    Surveys of the United Kingdom

    80,000

    Harbours under the Board of
    Trade

    2,000

    Peterhead Harbour

    6,000

    Rates on Government Property

    210,000

    Public Works and Buildings, Ireland

    70,000

    Railways, Ireland

    70,000

    CLASS II.

    United Kingdom and England—

    House of Lords, Offices

    4,000

    House of Commons, Offices

    13,000

    Treasury and Subordinate Departments

    30,000

    Home Office

    50,000

    Foreign Office

    25,000

    Privy Council Office, etc

    5,000

    Board of Trade

    60,000

    Mercantile Marine Services

    30,000

    Bankruptcy Department of the Board of Trade

    3

    Board of Agriculture

    75,000

    Charity Commission

    15,000

    Civil Service Commission

    15,000

    Exchequer and Audit Department.

    22,000

    Friendly Societies Registry

    2,200

    Local Government Board

    66,000

    Lunacy Commission

    5,000

    Mint (including Coinage)

    10

    National Debt Office

    5,000

    Public Works Loan Commission

    10

    Public Record Office

    10,000

    Registrar General's Office

    13,000

    Stationery and Printing

    250,000

    Woods, Forests, etc., Office of

    7,000

    Works and Public Buildings
    Office of

    19,000

    Secret Service

    17,000

    Scotland

    Secretary for Scotland

    4,500

    Fishery Board

    8,000

    Lunacy Commission

    2,000

    Registrar General's Office

    2,000

    Local Government Board

    4,000

    Ireland—

    Lord Lieutenant's Household

    2,000

    Chief Secretary and Subordinate Departments

    15,000

    Charitable Donations and Bequests

    Office

    750

    Local Government Board

    15,000

    Public Record Office

    2,000

    Public Works Office

    12.500

    Registrar General's Office

    6,000

    Valuation and Boundary Survey

    6,000

    CLASS III.

    United Kingdom and England—

    Law Charges

    40,000

    Miscellaneous Legal Expenses

    26,000

    Supreme Court of Judicature

    120,000

    Land Registry

    7,000

    County Courts

    10,000

    £

    Police, England and Wales

    14,000

    Prisons, England and the Colonies

    200,000

    Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain

    140,000

    Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    10,000

    Scotland—

    Law Charges and Courts of Law

    30,000

    Register House, Edinburgh

    15,000

    Crofters Commission

    2,000

    Prisons, Scotland

    25,000

    lreland—

    Law Charges and Criminal Prosecutions

    30,000

    Supreme Court of Judicature, and other Legal Departments

    38,000

    Land Commission

    50,000

    County Court Officers, etc.

    36,000

    Dublin Metropolitan Police

    35,000

    Constabulary

    600,000

    Prisons, Ireland

    45,000

    Reformatory and Industrial Schools

    55,500

    Dundrum Criminal Lunatic Asylum

    2,500

    CLASS IV.

    United Kingdom and England—

    Public Education, England and
    Wales

    3,600,000

    Science and Art Department, United Kingdom

    200,000

    British Museum

    64,000

    National Gallery

    5,000

    National Portrait Gallery

    2,500

    Wallace Gallery

    6,000

    Scientific Investigation, etc United Kingdom

    15,000

    Universities and Colleges, Great Britain, and Intermediate Education, Wales

    38,000

    London University

    5

    Scotland—

    Public Education

    600,000

    National Gallery

    1,400

    Ireland—

    Public Education

    600,000

    Endowed Schools Commissioners

    350

    National Gallery

    1,200

    Queen's Colleges

    2,500

    CLASS V.

    Diplomatic and Consular Services

    220,000

    Uganda, Central and East Africa
    Protectorates and Uganda Rail-
    way

    250,000

    Colonial Services

    180,000

    Cyprus, Grant in Aid

    12,000

    Subsidies to Telegraph Companies

    35,000

    CLASS VI.

    Superannuation and Retired Allowances

    280,000

    Merchant Seamen's Fund Pensions, etc

    3,000

    Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances

    1,000

    Hospitals and Charities. Ireland

    10,000

    CLASS VII.

    £

    Temporary Commissions

    8,000

    Miscellaneous Expenses

    6,572

    Congested Districts Board, Scotland

    —

    Total for Civil Services

    £9,271,000

    REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.

    £

    Customs

    350,000

    Inland Revenue

    650,000

    Post Office

    3,000,000

    Post Office Packet Service

    210.000

    Post Office Telegraphs

    1,300,000

    Total for Revenue Departments

    £5,510,000

    Grand Total

    14,781,000

    Resolution read a second time.
    Amendment proposed—
    "To leave out '£14,781,000,' and insert £14,780,900' instead thereof."—(Mr. Have-lock wilson.)
    *MR. HAVELOCK WILSON: Mr. Speaker, I move to reduce the Vote for the Board of Trade by £100, in order to call attention to the administration of the Merchant Shipping Act. We are desirous at times to get fresh legislation, but I am very much afraid our hopes of obtaining legislation from the right honourable Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade have little chance of being realised. We have a right, however, to ask that the President of the Board of Trade will at least administer the Merchant Shipping Act in a just and proper spirit. I have called attention repeatedly in this House to the fact that one of the sections of the Merchant Shipping Act, with reference to the accommodation provided for lascar seamen, has been continually broken by a large and important company, which is receiving a considerable subsidy from the Government. In August of last year I was told by the President of the Board of Agriculture, on behalf of his right honourable colleague, the President of the Board of Trade, that the matter was receiving the serious attention of that Board, and had been referred to the Law Officers of the Crown, and that as soon as the law had been ascertained the matter would be dealt with finally.

    1665
    That was last August, but from that mouth up till January of this year not a single thing was done by the President of the Board of Trade to inquire into the state of the law on the subject. I have put a number of Questions to the right honourable Gentleman this year, but have received evasive replies each time. We were told that the matter had been referred to the Law Officers of the Crown, and though five or six weeks have gone by we have had no further light upon the subject. I am entitled to complain of the conduct of the right honourable Gentleman in this matter. I claim to have a right, in the interests of British seamen, to expect other than evasive replies when I call attention to these matters. I would be the last Member in this House to obstruct business, but when we cannot get satisfactory answers to respectful Questions addressed to the Board of Trade there is no alternative but to have it out, and to have it out properly, on an occasion like this. I asked the right honourable Gentleman the other day as to the number of men carried on certain vessels belonging to the P. and O. Company, and the accommodation provided for them. The right honourable Gentleman replied that one of the two vessels named carried 65 men, but I found, on inquiry, that the vessel carried 87, which, of course, largely reduced the crew space. In the ease of the other ship—the "Caledonia"—the right honourable Gentleman said she was only carrying 157 men, but, according to the list supplied by the company to the Customs officers, 192 men were carried on that vessel. The figures given by the President of the Board of Trade did not correspond with the facts: indeed. I assert that the P. and O. Company have misled the right honourable Gentleman. For this reason I say we have good grounds of complaint. This has been going on for years. The right honourable Gentleman has told us repeatedly that there is some conflict between the Indian law and the Imperial law with reference to the accommodation of lascars. I have maintained all through these discussions that the Indian law only applies to ships registered in India and sailing on the Indian coast. The Imperial Act applies to all vessels registered under the Imperial Act, and belonging to the
    1666
    United Kingdom. The P. and O. Company's vessels are all registered in the United Kingdom under the Imperial Act, and the men employed on those vessels are entitled to have the 72 cubic feet of space which is provided by that Act. Again, the Board of Trade have, during the last four or five years, given instructions that wherever any company failed to give the proper amount of accommodation to the lascar crews, in accordance with the Act, there was to be a deduction from the tonnage. The Hoard of Trade have applied that law to small companies, but the Department is evidently afraid of the powerful P. and 0. Company, and have neglected to do their duty. The Royal Commission on Labour recommended that seamen should have 120 cubic feet of space. The Board of Trade recognised that by saying they believed all shipowners were giving this amount of accommodation, and they recommended generally that shipowners should be encouraged to give 120 cubic feet, but now we find one large company who are not giving the men more than 50 cubic feet. The company are, therefore, breaking the law, but the President of the Board of Trade and his advisers are evidently afraid to put the law into force. That is one indictment I make against the President of the Board of Trade, but there are others. There was a Manning Committee appointed by the late Liberal Government, which sat for over two years, and recommended that a manning scale should be passed into law, so that every vessel would be provided with a proper crew according to her tonnage and steam power. We expected that the present Government would have brought in legislation to deal with that question in a proper manner. It is true the right honourable Gentleman brought in a Bill to declare that ships undermanned were unseaworthy, but nothing was said as to the scale. The new Act left it in the hands of the Board of Trade to say what the scale should be, but only a leaflet has been issued giving some vague instructions as to the vessels of 700 tons and over, and even this does not include coasting vessels. The right honourable Gentleman proposes in such leaflet that there shall be, independent of the master and two mates, a sufficient number of deck hands available for division into two

    1667
    watches. There is nothing in the leaflet to guide the Board of Trade officer as to whether the available deck hands should be boys or men. If the President of the Board of Trade had been desirous of putting the manning scale into proper form, with the view of safeguarding the men on board our ships, if he meant that vessels of over 700 tons should carry three hands in a watch, he would have declared whether they were to be men or boys. As I have said, this scale is only to apply to vessels going on foreign voyages. If the right honourable Gentleman had consulted anybody connected with the seafaring trade, they would have told him that there was more danger in trading around our coasts than on vessels going on foreign voyages, and yet vessels trading round the coast can carry what hands they like, and the President of the Board of Trade does not interfere. I put a question to him the other day with regard to two vessels which are trading on the coast, and which have only three able seamen and a boatswain. The majority of the ships on the coast have six able seamen, and it has been the rule in all coasting steamers of 700 or 800 tons to carry six able seamen, so as to have three men in each watch. The right honourable Gentleman said the other day that the Board of Trade did not deem vessels to be undermanned when they only had three or four men. From what I know, that is not the opinion of the permanent officials of the Board of Trade. The Manning Committee included amongst its members one of the permanent secretaries of the Board of Trade, and also the nautical adviser to the Board of Trade, and both of these officers signed the Majority Report, which recommended that no vessel under 50 feet in length or 700 tons burden should be allowed to leave any port in the United Kingdom with less than six hands, so as to provide three effective hands in each watch. I can hardly conceive that they would recommend to the right honourable Gentleman that four men would be sufficient, when in their Reports they have declared vessels to be unseaworthy when they have less than six. There have been many Board of Trade inquiries. I have in my hand a list of a number of inquiries as to the cause of the loss of ships that have been held at the direction of the Board of Trade,
    1668
    and in every case, out of a total of 30, the Court have declared that where these vessels have had less than six able seamen, so as to provide three in each watch, they were unseaworthy. I want the right honourable Gentleman to tell me how he can say that the Board of Trade officials who have held inquiries into the matter have declared this class of vessel to be seaworthy with less than six hands. I think I have some right to complain in this matter. We are not asking for fresh legislation; we are simply asking the President of the Board of Trade to put into force the law, or rather the rule, that he has himself made. I attended an inquest three or four weeks ago on a man who was killed on board a ship entering Tilbury Dock. This vessel was short-handed, and in checking the vessel round the dock head by wire rope, the man's leg caught in the slack of the wire and was cut off. I was able to elicit from one of the witnesses at that inquiry that if there had been another man on the deck to take away the slack of the wire rope the accident would not have happened. Instead of endeavouring to save the lives of our seamen by enforcing the regulations which the Courts have insisted ought to be enforced, the Board of Trade, which costs the country some thousands of pounds every year, take no action in the matter. I hope the right honourable Gentleman will give some satisfactory reply to the effect that he will insist upon shipowners carrying a sufficient number of seamen to render their ships seaworthy, and to prevent accidents of this kind occurring in the future. There is another matter upon which I wish to make a complaint. We have a Department in connection with the Board of Trade which is called the Labour Department. The present Government brought in a Measure entitled the Conciliation Act, in order to prevent, if possible, labour disputes, and wherever they did occur to endeavour to have them settled without any trouble. We had a dispute in Glasgow in October of last year, and the men had very serious grievances in connection with the Shipping Federation. They complained that the officials of this organisation in Glasgow had been levying blackmail on the sailors and firemen who wanted employment, and that the Board of Trade

    1669
    had allowed the Shipping Federation to supply men in contravention of section 111 of the Merchant Shipping Act. Because these men refused to take what is known as the Federation Ticket the Shipping Federation immediately commenced to import hands from other ports, so as to compel the men to take this ticket and submit to be blackmailed by these officials. I wrote to the President of the Board of Trade with regard to this matter, and I explained in detail what the men had to complain of. We sent up to the President of the Board of Trade a number of instances where the men alleged they had been compelled to pay money in order to get employment. We have instances where men belonging to the Royal Naval Reserve, who had been engaged by officers of ships to go on a voyage, had been objected to by the Federation officials when they went to sign on, and subsequently lost their employment. We sent these charges, as I have said, to the President of the Board of Trade, and asked him, under the Conciliation Act, to send down one of the Board's officials to investigate the charges with a view to the matter being settled in a proper manner. Instead of taking these steps the Board of Trade simply sent our charges on to the Shipping Federation, and asked that body what they had to say with regard to them. I think the Shipping Federation denied every statement we made, and I would not have expected that they would have done anything else. I want to know for what reason the Board of Trade sent our charges on to the Shipping Federation. It was the duty, I contend, of the Board of Trade, seeing that it concerned their interests as well as ours, to have held a proper inquiry in regard to the matter. We were told that no inquiry could be held, and although there was a strike in Glasgow, which lasted over three months, causing great suffering to the men, the Board of Trade made no effort whatever to try and bring that dispute to a termination. In this matter we certainly have a right to complain of the conduct of the right honourable Gentleman. Are we to understand that the Conciliation Act of the Board of Trade is only intended for very large industrial disputes where there is a great dislocation of trade? Surely, if there is any body of men in this country who
    1670
    ought to have the benefit of the Conciliation Act it is the men who are compelled to go down to the sea in ships. We have appealed to the President of the Board of Trade before any strikes have taken place to put the Conciliation Act into force, but on every occasion he has refused to move. I understand the Board of Trade are afraid to take any step which is at all likely to offend the great shipping interest. In March of last year I sent the President of the Board of Trade a lengthy statement with regard to the state of affairs existing in the Consular Shipping Office at New York. In July I put a further question to the right honourable Gentleman as to whether anything had been done to put an end to that state of affairs. He stated in reply that the matter was still under the consideration of the Board of Trade and the Foreign Office. Since that time I have had many complaints from seamen who inform me that the same state of things exists in the Consular Shipping Office in New York as has existed there for years. I sent the right honourable Gentleman a letter which I had received, and which was signed by 18 men connected with a sailing ship, in which they stated that they were compelled to pay crimps £8 each as a shipping fee for getting the chance of employment on this vessel. They were told that the balance of their advance note—60 dollars—would be paid to them when they got on board the ship. No payment was made on board the ship, and they demanded to be taken to the Consul. Instead of that a crowd of crimps and loafers came up to the vessel in a tug-boat and the men were assaulted. I have had many complaints as to this kind of thing. I believe the Consul-General has denied my statement with regard to the matter, but I want to point out to the right honourable Gentleman that the Consul-General's office is not in the same place as the Consular Shipping Office. It is in a different building and a different locality, and the Consul-General himself has no opportunity of witnessing the state of affairs existing in the Shipping Office. Therefore I venture to say, with all respect, that he is not a competent person to form an opinion. The right honourable Gentleman has said that the Government are anxious to do something in the matter, but that

    1671
    there are great difficulties in the way. I should like to know what those difficulties are. I have spent three months at that office, and I know of no insuperable difficulties. The Consul-General in New York has a right to say to the crimps and loafers and the other undesirable persons that they shall not come into the Shipping Office with the sailors. I think the United States Government are prepared and willing to provide police protection in order to prevent them coming into the office. The Consular shipping masters themselves are very much to blame; I find they raise no objection at all to the presence of these persons. When I asked them why these men were there I was told that they were allowed because they represented the sailors and firemen. This, of course, is not the case. The present state of things will go on unless the President of the Board of Trade makes up his mind definitely on the matter. It is only necessary for the Government to give instructions to the Consul-General in New York to the effect that these people shall not be allowed to come into that, office, and' that instruction would be carried out at once. I desired to call attention to the advance notes that the men receive on signing articles in a ship, and I urged on the President of the Board of Trade the desirability of giving instructions that whenever a man is engaged in a Consular Office in a foreign port he shall receive from the Consul his advance note direct. I was promised that that instruction should be given long ago, but nothing has been done, and when a man signs on in the office he is told to go down to the shipmaster to get his advance note. When he goes the shipping master tells him he intends to deduct 10s. or £1 as a shipping fee. Of course, the man cannot help himself and has to pay. I believe one of the points urged by the right honourable Gentleman with regard to New York was that the United States law says it is illegal to give any advance notes to seamen on board a ship. That is true, but the United States law only says that it is illegal to give advance notes to vessels belonging to the United States. They have no control over our Consular Office. Sailors and firemen are people who have no political influence. If they had votes at their disposal there are plenty of hon-
    1672
    ourable Members in this House who would be ready and willing to run about seeing what could be done. I always find that where men have no political influence very little is done for them in the House of Commons. The right honourable Gentleman, in answer to the honourable Member for St. Pancras the other night, promised, with regard to the number of foreigners in British ships, that the Government would make some inquiry as to the engagement and position of seamen. The right honourable Gentleman was asked by the honourable Member for Southampton as to whether the Government were prepared to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the position of seamen on board ship, and he was told in reply that the Government did not intend to do anything in this direction. I am not going to ask the Government to appoint a Royal Commission, because I know it would be a very costly thing to do when a Select Committee of the House of Commons can deal with the question just as effectively and thoroughly. Seeing that the right honourable Gentleman promised that the Government were prepared to inquire into the matter, I am going to ask him whether he is willing to appoint a Select Committee to inquire into the whole of the question. One of the matters which the Committee could consider would be whether the system of continuous discharge would be best. The right honourable Gentleman appears to have made up his mind that a form of continuous discharge would be the best thing seamen could have, and that the captain should have a right to record in that continuous discharge a seaman's character for conduct and ability. I have no objection whatever to a form of continuous discharge giving a record of a man's character for conduct and ability, provided that whenever a captain gives a man a bad discharge the man should have the right to go before some competent court to have the matter tried on its merits. I do not object to a captain giving a man such a character if he has a right to appeal; but to leave it in the hands of the captain to give a bad character for conduct and ability without allowing the man an opportunity for redress would be a most

    1673
    tyrannical proceeding, and that is what we have to complain of now.
    MR. SPEAKER: The question of whether the seamen should have an appeal or not can only be decided by legislation.
    *MR. HAVELOCK WILSON: Yes, Sir, but this is a matter which is in the hands of the Board of Trade. The right honourable Gentleman has power now, if he chooses to exercise it, to issue continuous discharges, and seeing that he has such power I claim to be quite within my right in saying that it would be a most unjust thing for the President of the Board of Trade to issue such certificates without giving a seaman a right to appeal in the event of the captain giving him a bad character for conduct and ability. If such a power was given to captains it would be possible for them to give men who had served a number of years on board a ship, and had hitherto a good record, a bad character, and in such a case, what chance, I ask, would that man stand of getting employment if there were men around who had no stain what ever in their books? Once a bad character, always a bad character. Under the present system the captain has the power to give a man a bad discharge and he has no remedy whatever. This is a state of things which should not exist. The Board of Trade have a large number of outdoor officers who are supposed to watch the crimps and prevent such cases as I have alluded to, but during the months of October, November, and December of last year wholesale crimping was being carried on by agents of the Shipping Federation. I called attention to a case where the agents of the Shipping Federation went on board a Russian steamer in Hull and persuaded a young ordinary seaman to desert his ship. They conveyed him to the railway station without any sea-kit, too him to Greenock, and put him on board the "Duchess of York." This man could not speak a word of English, but he was shipped as a fireman, and sent across the Western Ocean. I want to ask the right honourable Gentleman why the Board of Trade did not undertake a prosecution against the man who persuaded this Russian to desert his ship, and who conveyed him to Greenock, and also what the officials
    1674
    at Greenock were doing to allow a man to be signed on as a fireman who had never had any experience on an English ship and who could not speak a word of the English language? Was there an interpreter there? This man was persuaded to go down to Greenock on false pretences, and was kept on the "Duchess of York" as a prisoner, and then signed on by the officials of the Board of Trade, and yet we pay over £40,000 a year in order, amongst other things, to prevent such a thing occurring. Are we to understand that the Shipping Federation have full liberty to break the law with impunity? Under another branch of the Board of Trade there are deputy-superintendents who sign on crews. They are provided at considerable cost throughout the country where seamen are engaged. I find that in many eases deputy-superintendents are employed signing on at all hours of the night crews that have been brought on board by the most notorious crimps. I have called the right honourable Gentleman's attention to the case of a railway servant who took a trip to the Isle of Man in a pleasure steamer, and was signed on as an able seaman by one of the Board of Trade officials. I now have to deal with the Surveying Department of the Board of Trade. There has been a tendency in the Board of Trade for a number of years to appoint shipwright surveyors and engineer surveyors, but at the present time there is only one nautical surveyor for the whole of Scotland; and I ask, how can the right honourable Gentleman expect that ships can be thoroughly looked after under such circumstances? Engineer surveyors are quite competent to examine engines and boilers and that kind of work. The shipwright surveyors are perfectly competent to look after the woodwork of the vessel: but the nautical surveyor is the man who is supposed to have knowledge of the loading of the ship, the stowage, the outfit, and the cargo, and yet there is only one nautical surveyor for the whole of Scotland, and his time is fully occupied in Glasgow. There is no nautical surveyor for Aberdeen, Dundee, and Leith. How can the right honourable Gentleman expect that ships can be thoroughly looked after if the Board of Trade continue to appoint engineer and shipwright sur-

    1675
    veyors. What do they know about getting boats out over the side of the ship, and the gear attached to them? It is a farce. For the north-east coast of England there is only one nautical surveyor stationed at Hull. We need not be surprised about vessels foundering or going to sea unworthy when the Board of Trade are not taking proper measures and precautions to look after vessels before leaving port. I trust, from the point of view of humanity, and in the interest of life and limb, that the right honourable Gentleman will make some promise that his Department will seriously consider the question of appointing a larger number of nautical surveyors in order to look after the ships that leave our ports. There are many other ports where there are no surveyors at all, and we have heard numerous instances of foreign ships overloading in British ports. There is no surveyor, for instance, in the port of Burntisland, Scotland, and foreign ships are allowed to leave in an overloaded state, and these vessels are competing with our British vessels. Is this state of affairs to continue? I come next to the question of provisions. An Act of Parliament was passed a short time ago giving powers to the Board of Trade to inspect all provisions to be consumed on board vessels going through the Suez Canal round the Cape of Good Hope or Cape Horn. I find the Board of Trade inspectors under this Act have in many cases gone on board ships bound on these voyages, and have condemned provisions as unfit for use, but instead of the food being destroyed it has been transferred to vessels going up the Baltic and the Black Sea. I want to ask the right honourable Gentleman if he cannot do something to prevent this, and not allow food condemned as unfit for use in one ship to be put on board another vessel which is outside the limit of the Act to which I have referred. If the right honourable Gentleman will consult his inspectors in regard to this matter, I think he will find that they will bear out my statement. There is only one other matter to which I will refer. There was a dispute in Liverpool a short while ago, and in order to defeat the men one or two of the large companies there resorted to a practice which was entirely
    1676
    illegal, and which the Board of Trade could have prevented, and ought to have prevented. We called the attention of the Board of Trade to this matter some months ago, but have had no reply yet. A number of the men, desiring to have a better wage, refused to sign on. The Cunard and another company got their men who were employed in port—old and infirm men and shore gangs—to sign on the articles of their vessels, as though they were the crew, in order to get their clearance from the Board of Trade Passenger Surveyor. When the ships got outside, the shore gangs came back and their places were filled by all kinds of incompetent men who pretended to be seamen and firemen, and who were supplied from boarding houses. That was a. distinct breach of the Merchant Shipping Act. The deputy-superintendent had no right to sign these men on when it was known that there was no intention on the part of the agents of the owners of sending them to sea. Because one old man refused to sign on, although he was told he would not be required to go to sea, he was discharged, notwithstanding the fact that he had worked for the company for nearly 40 years. The deputy-superintendent who signed these men on knew perfectly well that he was doing wrong, and that he had no right to sign them on, knowing that they were not going to form the crew of the ship. Furthermore, the Board of Trade Surveyor, or the Medical Officer of the Board of Trade, had no right to pass these men as the crew of the vessel when he knew they were not going to sea in the ship. This matter was then brought under the notice of the Board of Trade, but no answer has been given, no doubt for the reason that they do not want to do anything which would offend the shipping interest. All I ask, and all the seamen ask, is that the Board of Trade will administer the law fairly and impartially between employer and man. If we get that we cannot expect any more, but I can assure the right honourable Gentleman that the Board of Trade at the present moment are a long way short of administering the law in an impartial manner. It is administered all on one side at the present moment. The right honourable Gentleman has said that seamen

    1677
    arc better off now than they were, and that they are getting higher wages now than they have ever received. The President of the Board of Trade is entirely mistaken on that point. The men arc getting wages as low as ever they did, and in many cases they are getting 25 per cent. less than the wages which were paid 30 years ago. I cannot see how, in the face of these facts, the right honourable Gentleman can say that seamen are enjoying a prosperous time. With regard to accommodation, I have no hesitation in saying that there are a large number of cases in which the accommodation provided is contrary to the Board of Trade regulations. It is supposed that a man shall be able to read a newspaper in any part of a forecastle by the light of day, but I have been in many forecastles where I could not see my hand in front of me, and where the ventilation was very imperfect. If the Board of Trade would step out manfully in the right direction this could be remedied. Laws on the subject have been passed, and I contend that it is the duty of the Board of Trade to see that those laws are properly administered. I beg to move to reduce the Vote by £100.
    MR. J. SAMUEL: Mr. Speaker, I formally second the reduction of the Vote.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. RITCHIE,): No one can doubt that the honourable Member has taken full advantage of the opportunity afforded him by the forms of the House, but I venture to think that if honourable Members generally who had criticisms to make were to take similar advantage it would be so intolerable as to render it necessary to take some action in the matter. I make no complaint whatever about being asked questions, but I do complain of the honourable Member having, without the slightest notice, challenged the Board of Trade on the whole administration of the Merchant Shipping Act. I decline at such an hour, without the adequate material with which I should have supplied myself if I had received notice, to traverse in detail all the statements and accusations which the honourable Member has put forth: but it must not
    1678
    be assumed in consequence that I accept any of the figures or statements that have been made by him. The honourable Gentleman has raised questions with regard to the administration of the Merchant Shipping Act, the inspection of provisions, nautical surveyors, advance notes, the Conciliation Act, the manning of ships, and the accommodation of lascars. Surely, that is a Budget which might well afford ample scope for discussion at many sittings, and which cannot be debated in the course of a quarter of an hour, or even half an hour. I can only say that if the honourable Gentleman supplies me with particulars of the cases in which, in his opinion, the administration of the Merchant Shipping Act has fallen short of what he considers necessary, I will inquire into the matter. But I am bound to say, with regard to many statements which have been made by the honourable Member, that I have found in previous inquiries that the honourable Gentleman's accusations have been, if not baseless, grossly exaggerated.
    *MR. HAVELOCK WILSON: I have over and over again supplied this information to the Board of Trade, and the right honourable Gentleman has inquired into them by sending them to the very people against whom I made the charges, which were, of course, denied.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: The honourable Gentleman has made accusations against shipowners and against officials of the Board of Trade, and he seems to think it extraordinary that we should ask for an explanation from those accused. He desires to be free to make accusations, but he denies the right of those who are charged to answer those accusations. There are one or two matters to which I will refer. We have been in frequent communication with the Consul-General of New York, and only this week I authorised a letter to be sent to the Foreign Office answering in detail the statements made by the Consul-General. If the honourable Gentleman thinks that matters can be dealt with in a week or two he is greatly mistaken. I deprecate just as much as he does the action of crimps at New York, and I can assure him that everything is being done to put an end to the system of which he complains. As to the Board of Trade refusing an

    1679
    inquiry under the Conciliation Act at Glasgow, the Board of Trade have no right, and ought not, to interfere unless they believe that their interference will tend to a peaceful solution of the question in dispute, and what I have to consider is whether any interference on my part will do harm or good. I shall act on my own initiative, and must decline to act on the advice of the honourable Member unless I am satisfied that any action on my part will tend to a peaceful solution. With regard to the manning of ships, the honourable Member knows perfectly well that the only legislation which exists on this subject was passed by myself, and when he says the Manning Scale was issued without any instructions to those interested he is making a statement which is groundless.
    *MR. HAVELOCK WILSON: I did not say that. What I did say was that the Scale was not in accordance with the views of the permanent officials of the Board of Trade.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: The honourable Member said that if we had consulted anybody connected with the seafaring trade we should not have acted as we did. May I tell the honourable Gentleman that I did consult, not only those connected with the seafaring trade, but shipowners, and also the men.
    *MR. HAVELOCK WILSON: The seamen were not consulted.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: The seamen were consulted. The honourable Member professes to be the only representative of the sailors, but there are others in this House who know quite as much about them as he does, and there are those who repudiate him and his action. The only other point to which I will refer is the lascar question. Here again the House must not imagine that the honourable Gentleman appears as the representative of the lascars, because, although he no doubt conscientiously professes great interest in the welfare of lascar seamen, the latter are not only very content with their lot, but entirely repudiate the action which the honourable Member is taking on their behalf. They are quite content, and are extremely happy in their employment, and if the honourable Member is moving on their behalf he is doing so without their approval. How-
    1680
    ever, I am bound to acknowledge that, whether they are satisfied or not, the Board of Trade are bound to see that the Act of Parliament with regard to them and to other seamen is properly administered. The honourable Member says he knows the law much better than any official of the Board of Trade.
    *MR. HAVELOCK WILSON: I did not say that.
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: He said I had maintained all along that the Act does not apply. This is purely a legal question, but the honourable Member professes to know exactly what the law is with regard to it. Lascars are dealt with under the Indian Act and the English Act. The Board of Trade have always disallowed tonnage in all ships, whether belonging to the P. and O. Company or not, which have not given the requisite space for the crews. Then comes the question whether we ought to prosecute for penalties. That is another question altogether, and it is an extremely difficult and complicated one. The honourable Gentleman says that my right honourable Friend the President of the Board of Agriculture stated last year that the matter was under the consideration of the law officers of the Crown. I am sure my right honourable Friend said nothing of the kind. I have not got the volume of "Hansard" here, but if my right honourable Friend said the matter was under the consideration of the legal advisers of the Board of Trade he would have been saying what was incorrect. I have thought the matter so intricate and difficult that it ought to be considered by even higher legal authorities than the legal advisers of the Board of Trade. The matter is now under the consideration of the Attorney-General and the Solicitor-General, and we shall be guided by the opinion given to us by these Gentlemen. If it turns out that in their opinion the P. and 0. Company or any other company is liable to penalties because of their action in respect to lascars, the Board of Trade will take action. The honourable Gentleman said that the figures supplied to me do not agree with the figures which have been ascertained by him. I cannot, of course, enter into the question of

    1681
    figures across the Table of the House without notice, but I must say that the figures quoted by the right honourable Gentleman are not at all in accord with the figures which have been supplied to me.
    Question put—
    "That '£14,781,000' stand part of the said Resolution."
    The House divided:—Ayes 139; Noes 31.—(Division List No. 67.)

    AYES.

    Allhusen, Augustus H. Eden

    Fletcher, Sir Henry

    Orr-Ewing, Chas. Lindsay

    Arnold, Alfred

    Folkestone, Viscount

    Pease, H. Pike (Darlington)

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Fry, Lewis

    Penn, John

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Gedge, Sydney

    Percy, Earl

    Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy

    Goldswortby, Major-General

    Pilkington, Richard

    Baird, John G. Alexander

    Gordon, Hn. John Edward

    platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Man.)

    Gorst, Rt. Hn. Sir J. Eldon

    Pollock, Harry Frederick

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col Ed.

    Barton, Dunbar Flunket

    Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

    Purvis, Robert

    Bathurst, Hn. Allen Benj.

    Greene, H D. (Shrewsbury)

    Pym, C. Guy

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir H.M.(Bris.)

    Gretton, John

    Rankin, Sir James

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

    Bemrose, Sir Henry Howe

    Gull, Sir Cameron

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn C. Thomson

    Bigwood, James

    Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord G.

    Royds, Clement Molyneux

    Bill, Charles

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert W.

    Russell, Gen. F.S. (Chelten'm)

    Bond, Edward

    Hanson, Sir Reginald

    Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

    Brodrick, Rt. Hn St. John

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Rutherford, John

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Heath, James

    Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

    Butcher, John George

    Henderson, Alexander

    Scott, Sir S.(Marylebone, W.)

    Cavendish, V.C.W.(Derbysh.)

    Hill, Sir Ed. Stock (Bristol)

    Smith, Abel H (Christch.)

    Cecil, Lord H (Greenwich)

    Hobhouse, Henry

    Smith, Samuel (Flint)

    Chaloner, Capt. R. G. W.

    Holland, Hn. Lionel R. (Bow)

    Smith, Hn. W. F.D. (Strand)

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hn J. (Bir.)

    Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

    Stanley, Hon. A. (Ormskirk)

    Chamberlain, J. A. (Wore'r)

    Lafone, Alfred

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Chaplin, Rt. Hn. Henry

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Stewart, Sir M. J. M'Taggart

    Charrington, Spencer

    Llewellyn, E. H. (Somerset)

    Stock, James Henry

    Cochrane, Hn. T. H. A. E.

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Long, Rt. Hn W. (Liverpool)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jasse

    Lorne, Marques of

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Colomb, Sir John C. Ready

    Lowe, Francis William

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Lowles, John

    Valentia, Viscount

    Cooke, C. W. R. (Heref 'd

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Wanklyn, James Leslie

    Cornwallis, Fiennes S. W.

    Macartney, W. G. Ellison

    Warde, Lieut.-Col. C.E.(Kent)

    Cnrzon, Viscount

    Macdona, John dimming

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras)

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Maclure, Sir John Wm.

    Webster, SirR. E.(Isle of Wight)

    Denny, Colonel

    M 'Arthur, Chas (Liverpool)

    Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir J. P.

    M'Iver, Sir L. (Edinburg, W)

    Williams, Jos. Powell (Birm.)

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Massey-Main waring, Hn. W. F.

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Dorington, Sir John Edward

    Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)

    Wilson, John (Falkirk)

    Doughty, George

    Middlemore, J. Throgmorton

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcester. N.)

    Douglas, Rt. Hn. A Akers

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Wodehouse, Rt Hon. E. R.(Bath)

    Doxford, William Theodore

    Milward, Colonel Victor

    Wylie, Alexander

    Duncombe, Hn. Hubert V.

    More, Robt. J. (Shropshire)

    Egerton, Hn. V. de Tatton

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Fardell, Sir T. George

    Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Sir William Walrond and

    Fison, Frederick William

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Kilbride, Denis

    Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

    Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

    Lambert, George

    Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

    Caldwell, James

    Lawson, Sir William(Cumb'land

    Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

    Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh)

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

    Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

    Lloyd-George, David

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Ellis, Thos. Ed. (Merioneth-sh.

    Macaleese, Daniel

    Weir, James Galloway

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Wilson, Frederick W. (Norfolk)

    Gurdon, Sir William Brampton

    M'Leod, John

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale

    Morton, Edw. J.C.(Davenport)

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES-

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Roberts, J. H. (Denbighs)

    Mr. Havelock Wilson and

    Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.

    Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Mr. John Wilson Durham).

    MR. LEWIS: Mr. Speaker, my only object in intervening in the Debate is to give a practical illustration, drawn from my own constituency, of the injustice with which parents who desire to take the advantage of the Free Education Act or the conscience clause are treated. The circumstances of which I speak have occurred within the last few days. Mr. R. T. Price, a parent, residing in Flint, applied for a free place for his child in one of the National schools, there being no Board or British school in the town. On the 16th of February last he wrote to the rector of the parish, Rev. W. LI. Nicholas, one of the managers of the Flint National schools, the following letter—
    "Rev. Sir,—Having made an application to the head master of the above school for free schooling for my child, he gives me the information that your school is not a free school; therefore, it debars me from the right to free education for my children. I beg to ask you is the information received correct? If so, upon what grounds? An early reply will oblige."
    That was a perfectly civil letter, containing no imputation on anyone. The rector replied as follows—
    "Flint Rectory, February 17th, 1899.
    "Sir,—A letter just reached me. It bears no date, and no address, but is signed by 'R. T. Price.' On inquiry I am led to the conclusion that it is written by you, the agent of one of the most respected of English Insurance Companies, and it is this that increases my wonder. You inform the managers that you wrote to Mr. E. I. H. Williams, the headmaster of our school, asking for certain information, and on receipt of his letter, you at once write to the managers practically accusing Mr. Williams of giving you wrong information. Such a charge against Mr. Williams, who bears the highest character for honesty and truth, reveals a baseness of mind that, in my opinion, unfits the writer for any consideration at the hands of the managers, who respect Mr. Williams as a gentleman, whose conduct has always been marked by straight for wardness—On behalf of the managers, yours faithfully, W. LI. Nicholas. To Mr. Price, Agent for the Prudential Society."
    This is a strange letter for a clergyman to write to a parishioner who had made no reflection upon anyone. Mr. Price replied to this letter, disclaiming the least intention of reflecting upon Mr. Williams' character, and stating that he had written for an authoritative reply from the managers of the Flint National schools to his question whether
    1684
    it was a free school or not. The rector, writing him on the 20th February, informed him that three of the elementary schools in Flint are free schools, while in two others fees are charged in certain standards. Mr. Price then wrote to the rector asking him to state definitely what were the standards in which the managers could make a charge, and there, I believe, the correspondence ended. On the 25th February, Mr. Price received a letter from the Divisional Superintendent of the Prudential Assurance Company, stating that a complaint had gone up to the head office that Mr. Price had given serious offence in influential quarters by reason of his extreme conduct in political matters, and asking him to meet the superintendent at Flint on the following Monday. Mr. Price accordingly met the inspector on Monday, the 27th February. The subject of the conversation was Mr. Price's action in relation to the school, and the correspondence he had had with the rector of Flint. I do not know who it was who wrote the letter to the Prudential Insurance Company, but whoever wrote it, the House will readily understand the nature of the influences brought to bear against a parent who had dared to request that a free place should be provided for his child, and had asked to be informed of the grounds on which the managers refused a free place. I ask the Vice-President of the Council for a full inquiry into the circumstances connected with this correspondence. There is another point I wish to raise in connection with free education in the same place. Mr. Price's child did not bring the money for stationery, and was caned. I want to ask the right honourable Gentleman whether it is legal for a schoolmaster to inflict corporal punishment on a child because it did not bring twopence to pay for school stationery? Is the obligation on the parent or on the child? I now come to the case of parents who have withdrawn their children from denominational instruction. On the 1st of February last, Mr. John Williams, of Chester Street, Flint, wrote to the managers of the Flint National Schools asking that his boy and girl should be exempted from repeating or learning the Church of England Catechism, but stating that he had no objection to their receiving Scripture lessons. On the

    1685
    same day, the Rev. W. LI. Nicholas, the rector of Flint, sent him a reply to the effect that his wishes would be strictly carried out. Mr. Nicholas's letter contained the following remarkable passage—
    "This is the second letter you have sent to the Rectory, and on its receipt my mind could not help reverting to the time when you wrote your first letter, and I earnestly trust that a similar period of so much misery to your family and numerous friends may not follow the writing of this your second letter."
    Subsequently, several parents withdrew their children from denominational instruction, and on the evening of Sunday, 19th February, the names and occupations of four of the parents who had withdrawn their children from denominational instruction were published from the parish pulpit. The publication of names in such a connection from the pulpit of the parish church could only have been intended to terrorise people from claiming their legal rights. It amounted to putting the parents named on a black list, and it was calculated to expose them to annoyance and loss. As a matter of fact, it has since then exposed them to considerable annoyance. In various parts of the country many illegitimate influences have been brought to bear on parents who wish to avail themselves of the protection conferred by the conscience clause. It is perfectly monstrous that the manager of a public elementary school should use his clerical position for the purpose of treating Nonconformist parents, who have acted strictly in accordance with their legal rights, in the way I have described, and I ask the Department to make a full inquiry into the circumstances of this case. I have shown that an attempt has been made by someone to prejudice Mr. R. T. Price in the eyes of his employers. That, unfortunately, does not appear to be the only case of that kind. Mr. S. Catherall, of Gladstone Terrace, Flint, on the 27th February, signed the following statement—
    "Being a London and North Western Railway servant, and having requested the managers of the Flint National School not to teach my children any creed or catechism of the Church of England, the Rector, the Rev. W. LI. Nicholas, interviews my station-master about my doing so, and at the same time stating his intention of writing to the Railway Company's headquarters, pointing out that he has saved the Railway Company many pounds by keeping the Board School out of Flint.—S. Catherall."
    1686
    Now, that looks very like a case of interference with a working man's employment, and I wish to know whether the Education Department or any other department, or arm of Government, have the power to protect parents in cases of this kind. If not, it is a state of things that calls for immediate action on the part of the Government. It is bad enough that parents in 7,000 or 8,000 parishes should have no voice in the local management of the public elementary school to which all alike are compelled to send their children, but when it comes to this, that parents can be denounced by name, and that people can be prejudiced in their means of getting a livelihood, it is time to ask what action the Government are going to take to protect parents in the quiet and peaceable enjoyment of their rights as citizens. On behalf of the parents in Flint who wish to take advantage of the conscience clause, I ask that the Government should make a searching and impartial inquiry into all the circumstances attending the withdrawal of the children, and that they should take such action as will enable parents in the future to exercise their legal rights without being subjected to annoyance or oppression.
    SIR J. GORST: When these matters were brought before the House the other day by the Member for Flint I stated that it was the settled policy of the Education Department to keep itself out of these local quarrels, and that I hoped they would do so in Flint. I am happy to say they have done so up to now, and I do not think the honourable Member will be able to draw the Department into taking sides for one party or the other. He asks me whether I think it was right for the rector of Flint to denounce parents from the pulpit because they had withdrawn their children from denominational teaching. That is a question upon which the Committee of Council have no information whatever. If there was any ground for supposing anybody had been intimidated, that would be a different question; but, as these gentlemen who were denounced from the pulpit were themselves preachers, it is quite plain, however

    1687
    much they were irritated, they were not intimidated. It would be folly for the Education Department to assume episcopal functions, by censuring clergymen of the Church of England or any other church for their ecclesiastical conduct. The London and North Western Railway servant referred to was a man who, having two children at school, aged three and four respectively, desired that they should be withdrawn from religious instruction. I have no doubt the rector ought to have received that request with great meekness and consideration, but he appeal's to have made a confidant of the station-master, who was not the employer, and had no power to dismiss the man. The clergyman seems to have unbosomed his grief to the station-master, and to have told him how bad he thought the man to be. However, he made no representation to the railway company, the children were duly withdrawn from denominational instruction, and the father is as happy as he can be. The other case was one in which some angry letters seem to have passed. It is impossible for the Education Department to secure that all correspondence that takes place shall be conducted with perfect courtesy, and in the style of the "Perfect Letter-writer." These things do arise, and must settle themselves. It is not for a Department of State to meddle with them. The Education Department will not interfere in these ecclesiastical squabbles, but it will see that the law of the land is carried out. In the particular case referred to there had been a little temper shown on both sides, but nobody has been coerced or intimidated, and, if there had been no outside intervention, the whole squabble would, I believe, have settled itself very quickly. The case of the unfortunate child who was caned for not bringing its two pence for stationery is entirely new to me. I have never heard of it until this moment, and if the honourable Member will get the parent to make a formal complaint to the Education Department the matter will be inquired into.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon): Mr. Speaker, I must say that, in my opinion, one of the worst features in the whole matter is the speech of the right honourable Gentleman himself. Here is a legal right claimed by citizens of this country, who, unfortunately, happen to be Nonconformists. They claim to have their children exempted from denominational teaching under the conscience clause, and are intimidated by the rector and manager of the school. The right honourable Gentleman says he has nothing whatever to do with that. Surely, it is one of the prime functions of the Education Department to see that the law is carried out in the letter and in the spirit. The right honourable Gentleman says there has been no intimidation. I say that to go to a man's employer in the way in which this rector has done is clearly to intimidate, and I contend that this matter ought to be inquired into by the Education Department. The right honourable Gentleman has evidently had some communication with the rector of the parish. He says it is not the business of the Education Department to take sides but the right honourable Gentleman himself has taken a side, for he has accepted the statement made by the rector of the parish without any investigation. A working man, although he may be a Nonconformist lay preacher, has as much right to have his word taken as has the rector of the parish, until, at any rate, there is an investigation into the matter. The letters which have been referred to by my honourable Friend prove that the rector has absolutely no control over his feelings or his emotions when excited. When we raised the question of the treatment of Nonconformists in schools the question was asked, "How is it they do not avail themselves of the conscience clause?" This is our answer. Whenever there is a demand made to avail ourselves of the conscience clause there is intimidation on the part of the managers. This Debate has had one good effect. Honourable Members opposite received the support of thousands

    1689
    of Nonconformists in this country at the last election, and we shall not cease to remind Nonconformists throughout the country that when they have legitimate grievances which are not denied as far as the facts are concerned, and when those grievances are brought before the House of Commons, they are met by the laughter and the contempt of the Minister whom they helped to return and place in his present position, and also by the jeers of honourable Members opposite who have been returned to this House largely through the support accorded them by Nonconformists. We do not bring this matter forward because we expect redress, for never has the right honourable Gentleman really attempted to do justice to Nonconformists.
    MR. WEIR: I rise to draw attention to a matter of very great importance to my constituency. It is with reference to a dog licence. I have tried to get information on the subject, and have written numerous letters to the Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue, but without result. The case is as follows: A spinster who resides in Ross-shire owns a cow and two heifers. The Excise Act of 1878 definitely states that every per-
    son who owns cattle or sheep is entitled to keep a dog for the purpose of attending them without paying a licence, but this poor woman is compelled to pay. She signed a sworn information that she kept the dog for the purpose of attending to the cattle, and I have forwarded this to the Secretary of the Board of Inland Revenue. I was told there was no reason why the dog should not be taxed. The next-door neighbour to this woman has obtained exemption from taxation in respect of her dog, and I am told that her dog is not qualified to receive exemption. The question I wish to put is a very natural question—namely, What is the test as to whether a dog is qualified for exemption or not? This is a serious matter to a poor crofter. I want to know how it is the Board of Inland Revenue do not abide by the statute, which distinctly states that a person keeping cattle or sheen is entitled to keep a dog to look after them without paying a licence.
    Question put—
    "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
    The House divided:—Ayes, 134; Noes, 32—(Division List No. 68.)

    AYES.

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry E.

    Chamberlain, J. Austen(Wore'r)

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Arnold, Alfred

    Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Fardell, Sir T. George

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Charrington, Spencer

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H.A. E.

    Fison, Frederick Wiliam

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Cohen, Benjamin Lewis

    Fletcher, Sir Henry

    Baird, John George Alexander

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Folkestone, Visccount

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J.(Manch'r

    Colomb, Sir John Chas. Ready

    Gedge, Sydney

    Banbury, Fredrick George

    Compton, Lord Alwyne

    Goldsworthy, Major-General

    Barton, Dunbar Plunket

    Cooke, C. W. Ratcliffe(Heref'd)

    Gordon, Hon. John Edward

    Bathurst Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Cornwallis, Fiennes Stanley W

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H. (Bristol)

    Curzon, Viscount

    Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

    Bigwood, James

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Greene, Henry D.(Shrewsbury)

    Bond, Edward

    Denny, Colonel

    Gretton, John

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Diekenson-Poynder, Sir J.P.

    Greville, Hon. Ronald

    Burdett-Coutts, W.

    Disraeli, Coningsby Ralph

    Gull, Sir Cameron

    Butcher, John George

    Dorington, Sir John Edward

    Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord George

    Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbyshire

    Doughty, George

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Cecil, Lord Hugh (Greenwich)

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Hanson, Sir Reginald

    Chaloner, Captain R.G.W.

    Doxford, William Theodore

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Chamberlain Rt. Hon. J.(Birm.)

    Duncombe, Hon Hubert V.

    Heath, James

    Henderson, Alexander

    More, Robert J. (Shropshire)

    Stanley, Hon. Arthur (Ormskirk

    Hill, Sir Edward S. (Bristol)

    Morrell, George Herbart

    Stanley, Lord (Lanes.)

    Hobhouse, Henry

    Murray, Rt. H. A. Graham(Bute)

    Stewart, Sir Mark J. M' Taggart

    Holland, Hon. Lionel R. (Bow)

    Nicholson, William Graham

    Stock, James Henry

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Lafone, Alfred

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Lees, Sir Elliott(Birkenhead)

    Pease, Herbert Pike(Darlington)

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Llewellyn, Evan H. (Somerset)

    Penn, John

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. B.

    Percy, Earl

    Valentia, Viscount

    Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (Liverp'l)

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Wanklyn, James Leslie

    Lorne, Marquess of

    Pollock, Harry Frederick

    Warde, Lieut.-Col. C. E.(Kent)

    Lowe, Francis William

    Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

    Warr, Augustus Frederick

    Lowles, John

    Purvis, Robert

    Webster, R. G. (St. Pancras)

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Pym, C. Guy

    Webster, Sir R. E.(Isle of Wight

    Macartney, W. G. Ellison

    Rankin, Sir James

    Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Richardson, Sir Thos.(Hartle'l

    Williams, Joseph Powell-(Birm.

    Maclver, David (Liverpool)

    Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

    Willox, Sir John Archibald

    Maclure, Sir John William

    Royds, Cement Molyneux

    Wilson, John (Falkirk)

    M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

    Russell, Gen. F. S.(Cheltenham

    Wilson, J. W. (Worcestersh. N.

    M'lver, Sir Lewis(Edinburgh, W

    Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

    Wodehouse, Rt. Hon. E. R.(Bath)

    Massey-Mainwaring, H. W.F.

    Rutherford, John

    Wylie, Alexander

    Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)

    Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

    Middlemore, John Throgmorton

    Scott, Sir S. (Marylebone, W.)

    TELLERS FOR THE AYESߞ

    Mildmay, Francis Bingham

    Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)

    Sir William Waldrond and

    Milward, Colonel Victor

    Smith, Hn. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Mr. Anstruther.

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Lambert George

    Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

    Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

    Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land

    Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

    Bill, Charles

    Lloyd-George, David

    Thomas, David A. (Merthyr)

    Caldwell, James

    Macaleese, Daniel

    Trevelyan, Charles Philips

    Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh)

    M'Kenna, Reginald

    Weir, James Galloway

    Douglas, Charles M. (Lanark)

    M'Leod, John

    Wilson, Frederick W.(Norfolk

    Ellis, Thos. Edw.(Merionethsh-

    Morton, Ed. J.C.(Davenport)

    Wilson, John (Durham, Mid.)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Pilkington, Richard

    Wilson, Jos. H. (Middlesboro'

    Gurdon, Sir William Brampton

    Pirie, Duncan V.

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

    TELLERS FOR THE

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Samuel, J. (Stockton-on-Tees)

    Mr. Herbert Lewis and

    Kilbride, Denis

    Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

    Mr. William Jones.

    Resolutions agreed to.

REPORT OF WAYS AND MEANS.

  WAYS AND MEANS [20th MARCH].
  Resolutions reported—
  "That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the service of the years ending on the 31st day of March 1898 and 1899, the sum of £1,860,115 5s. 1d. be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  "That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1900, the sum of £29,596,900 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom."
  Bill ordered to be brought in upon the said Resolutions by Mr. James William Lowther, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, and Mr. Hanbury.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (NO. 1) BILE.
  "To apply certain sums out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the years ending on the thirty-first day of March one thousand eight hundred and ninety-eight, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-nine, and one thousand nine hundred." Presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon this day at Twelve of the clock.
  ARMY (ANNUAL) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till this day.
  COLONIAL LOANS FUND BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  INEBRIATES ACT (1898) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  METROPOLITAN STREETS ACT (1867) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday 10th April.
  SMALL HOUSES (ACQUISITION OF OWNERSHIP) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday 10th April.
  WILD BIRDS PROTECTION BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
  PLACES OF WORSHIP (LEASEHOLD ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
  SALE OF FOOD AND DRUGS BILL.
  Adjourned Debate on Motion for Committal to Standing Committee on Trade, etc. (9th March) further adjourned till Monday next.
  TELEGRAPHS (TELEPHONIC COMMUNI CATION, ETC.) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday 10th April.
  CHARITABLE LOANS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
  IMPROVEMENT OF LAND BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
  PALATINE COURT OF DURHAM [H.L.]
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  SOLICITORS BILL [H.L.]
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  TELEGRAPH (CHANNEL ISLANDS) BILL [H.L.]
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Adjourned Debate on Second Reading (9th March) further adjourned till Thursday.
  LICENSING EXEMPTION (HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT) BILL.
  Adjourned Debate on Second Reading (23rd February) further adjourned till Thursday.
  ELECTRIC LIGHTING (CLAUSES) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  ANCHORS AND CHAIN CABLES BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
  POOR LAW OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday 26th April.
  SUPERANNUATON (METROPOLIS) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday 25th April.
  SEATS FOR SHOP ASSISTANTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT ACT (1888) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
  WATER SUPPLY BILL,
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday 18th April.
  AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday 11th April.
  CHEAP TRAINS BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday 12th April.
  SALE OF NTOXICATING LIQUORS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday 1st May.
  COLONIAL SOLICITORS BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday 13th April.
  ADULTERATION (FOOD PRODUCTS) BILL
  Second Reading deferred till Wednesday 12th April.
  POOR LAW OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION ACT (1896) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday 13th April.
  OYSTERS BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday 10th April.
  INFECTIOUS DISEASE (NOTIFICATON) ACT (1889) EXTENSION BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Friday.
  COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEAL BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday 10th April.
  SUMMARY JURISDICTION ACT (1879) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Third Reading deferred till this day.

  PARISH COUNCILLORS (TENURE OF OFFICE) BILL.
  Committee deferred till this day.
  House adjourned at twenty-five minutes after Two of the clock.

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR took, his seat on the Woolsack at fifteen minutes after Four of the clock.
REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR IRELAND.
  EARL OF WICKLOW.
  Report made from the Lord Chancellor, that the right of Ralph Francis Earl of Wicklow to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  HERNE BAY WATER BILL [H.L.]
  Committee to meet on Thursday next.
  WALTON-ON-THAMES AND WEYBRIDGE GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Committee to meet on Thursday next.
  CAMBRIDGE UNIVERSITY AND TOWN GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Committee to meet on Friday next.
  YEADON AND GUISELEY GAS BILL [H.L.]
  Reported from the Select Committee with amendments.
  NORTHERN ASSURANCE COMPANY BILL [H.L.]
  Reported with amendments.
  OYSTERMOUTH RAILWAY OR TRAM-ROAD BILL [H.L.]
  Read third time, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  DUNDEE GAS, TRAMWAYS, AND EXTENSION BILL [H.L.]
  Standing Order No. 92 considered (according to order), and dispensed with, with respect to a petition of Captain Clayhills Henderson: Leave given to present the said petition.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  EDUCATION (ENGLAND AND WALES).
  Return showing—

  1. The expenditure from the grant for public education in England and Wales in the year 1898, upon annual grants to elementary schools;

  2. The actual number of public elementary day schools on the Annual Grant List, on the 31st August 1898; the accommodation and number of scholars in those schools;

  3. Detailed statistics of inspected schools, 1897–1998: Public elementary day schools, evening continuation schools, and certified efficient schools; the accommodation, number of scholars, teachers employed, particulars of grant earned, income, expenditure, etc.;

  4. Summary tables of educational star tistics; and

  5. Number of school boards under various heads of population.

  SOUTH AFRICA.
  Further correspondence relative to the affairs of Swaziland.

  BOARD OF AGRICULTURE.
  Annual Reports of Proceedings for the year 1898, under—

  1. The Diseases of Animals Acts, the Markets and Fairs (Weighing of Cattle) Acts, etc., etc.;

  1499

  2. The Tithe Acts, the Copyhold Act, 1894, the Inclosure Acts, the Metropolitan Commons Acts, the Drainage and Improvement of Land Acts, the Universities and College Estates Acts, the Glebe Lands Act, 1888, etc., etc.

  LIGHT RAILWAYS ACT, 1896
  Orders made by the Light Railway Commissioners and modified and confirmed by the Board of Trade authorising the construction of—

  I. A light railway in the county of Lincoln from Grimsby to Saltfleetby, with a branch to Cleethorpes;

  II. Light railways between Barking Town and the Beckton Gas Works, in the county of Essex;

  III. Light railways in the county of Lincoln and the West Riding of the county of York, from Haxey to Crowle and Marshlands, with branches;

  IV. A light railway in the county of Lancaster from Liverpool to Prescot;

  V. A light railway from the Esplanade to the Isle of Wight Railway Company's Station, Ventnor;

  VI. Light railways in the townships of Chirton, North Shields, Tynemouth, and Cullercoats, and the Urban District of Whitley and Monkseaton, in the county of Northumberland;

  VII. Light railways in the county of Stafford from Cheddleton Junction on the North Staffordshire Railway to Caldon Low and Hulme End;

  VIII. A light railway between Didcot in the county of Berks and Watlington in the county of Oxford;

  IX. A light railway from Trowse in the county of Norfolk to Beccles in the county of Suffolk;

  X. Light railways from Stourbridge to Kinver in the counties of Worcester and Stafford.

  Presented (by command), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  UNIVERSITIES (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1889.
  I Abstract of accounts of the University of St. Andrews, for the year ended 30th September 1898, being the annual report on the state of the finances of the University under the provisions of section 30 of the Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889.
  II. Abstract of accounts of the University of Glasgow, for the year ended 30th September 1898, being the annual report on the state of the finances of the University under the provisions of section 30 of the Universities (Scotland) Act, 1889.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BROUGHTY FERRY GAS AND PAVING ORDER BILL [H.L.]
  Read second time (according to order).
PUBLIC BUSINESS.
  TROUT FISHING ANNUAL CLOSE TIME (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  Second Reading (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Tuesday the 18th of April next.

PARISH CHURCHES (SCOTLAND) BILL.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR of BURLEIGH): My Lords, I move that the House do now resolve itself into Committee on this Bill.
Question put.
Motion agreed to.
Question proposed—
"That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill."
Question put.
Motion agreed to.
On Clause 2—
Amendment proposed—
"Page 1, line 10, after 'of' insert 'the heritors and Kirk Session of the parish and.'"—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: My Lords, my object in moving this Amendment is

1501
to secure that all the interests in any particular church or manse which it is proposed to deal with under this Bill should be thoroughly considered, and that all parties interested should give their consent to any proposal under the Bill. It is an important and serious thing to pull down an old church, or manse, to sell that old church or manse, and the site of it, and the churchyard that may surround it, in order to apply the money so obtained to other purposes. I admit there are cases where it is desirable to do so, but I think in every case all the interests concerned should be most carefully considered, and that their consent should be obtained. The Bill only requires the consent of the Presbytery in which the particular church is situated. The Presbytery, your Lordships well know, consists only of the ministers of the churches in that particular district. In Scotland the lay element has a very strong interest in the Established Church. The whole of the property of the church, whether it be teinds, or fabrics, or land, is vested in the heritors, and this Bill provides in no way for the consent of the heritors being obtained. The church has only a sort of Me interest in the funds, the sites, and the fabrics, whereas the reversionary interests are vested entirely with the heritors. If a church becomes vacant permanently, they can dispose of the church and its site. It seems to me that it is only fair that their consent should be required to any proposal under this Bill. The noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland appeared last Session to be of this opinion, because when this Bill was brought before your Lordships' House last year I moved an exactly similar Amendment to the effect that the consent of the heritors should be required as well as that of the Presbytery, and the noble Lord was good enough to consent to my Amendment, and the Bill passed through in that amended form. I have this year gone one step further, and I ask the House to support me in requiring the consent also of the representatives of the congregation—that is to say, the Kirk Session, consisting of the ministers and the elders of the church, the latter being on an equal footing in Scotland with the minister of the church, and being the direct representatives of the congre-
1502
gation. Last year it was rather hinted that the congregations in the churches that were likely to be affected by this Bill were not large, and that their interests were not great; but only the other day, so far as the nine city churches in Edinburgh are concerned, the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland admitted that the average number of communicants in those churches were 800. There are five churches, I believe, which would be affected by the Bill in Glasgow, and there again the number of communicants is considerable, averaging, I believe, something like 700. I do really think it will commend itself to your Lordships that the consent of the congregation should in some way be obtained before a proposal under this Bill is accented. My object, then, is not in any way to contravene the principle of the Bill. I only am anxious that all the parties interested, who have by law an interest in a particular church, shall in some way give their consent before a scheme under this Bill receives sanction. My Amendment, therefore, would run in this way—
"Where, from changes of population, it is expedient to change the site of a parish church in a city or town, and any person shall undertake to provide a new church in a suitable situation in the same city or town, any person interested, with the consent of the heritors and Kirk Session of the parish and the Presbytery of the Bounds, may apply to the Court of Teinds to sanction the change of site of such church, and the Court may dispose of the application as may seem just."
I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND: My Lords, I am sure the noble Lord will allow me to put him right upon one matter of fact in which he made an erroneous statement, I am perfectly certain, by inadvertence. He said the Presbytery in Scotland consisted only of ministers, but, as a matter of fact, there are as many elders in the Presbytery as there are ministers, because every Kirk Session has a right to send an elder. I am afraid I cannot accept this Amendment, on the ground that I think there is no real occasion for it. The proper body to represent the interests of the church is the Presbytery,

1503
and while the Presbytery should legitimately have a veto on any proposal of this kind, I do not think it would be right to give the Kirk Session an absolute veto, which would be the effect obtained by putting in the noble Lord's Amendment. I think it is quite right that both heritors and the Kirk Session should be consulted, and that they should both have an opportunity of being heard, but that will be done as a matter of course under the procedure which is adopted by the Court of Teinds. There is no doubt whatever that the Court of Teinds will take care that notice is given both to the heritors and the Kirk Session, and I think that is a sufficient safeguard of their interests. It is no doubt the case that the heritors have a large interest in the fabric of the church, but I am afraid I must say that the heritors are not in all cases members of the church, and I am also obliged to add that I am afraid if they were given in all cases a veto there would be some amongst them who would use that veto not for the purpose of protecting their interests, but for hindering the procedure under this Bill. No heritor under this Bill can be put to increased pecuniary charges, and I think the best course will be that provided in the Bill as it now stands—namely, that while the heritors and Kirk Session may be heard in their own interests they may not have an absolute veto. There-fore I am unable to accept the Amendment of the noble Lord.
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: May I ask the Secretary for Scotland why, if he takes this view now with regard to the heritors, he consented to my Amendment last year?
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND: The construction of the clause was different last year, and now the initiative is placed upon all persons interested. I accepted the Amendment last year over the Table without consultation with others. After consideration and consultation with others, I have come to the conclusion that I was too hasty in accepting the Amendment at that time, and that what I now say is the right view to take—namely, that while heritors and Kirk Sessions are entitled to appear in their own interests, it is
1504
going too far to give them absolute veto over all the changes proposed.
Question put.
Amendment negatived.
Question put—
"That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill."
Motion agreed to.
New clause proposed—
"Page 2, after line 11, insert new Clause 3 —
"3. The Court of Teinds, before making any order under this Act for the sale of any old church or site thereof, and manse, shall satisfy itself whether there are any objects of historical or architectural interest in connection with such church, site, or manse which are worthy of being preserved and maintained, and, on being satisfied that such objects exist, to direct that such church, site, or manse shall be disposed of subject to such stipulations and conditions as the Court shall consider appropriate and sufficient to secure the proper preservation and maintenance of such objects.
"The Court of Teinds, before making any order to change the site of a parish church in a city or town, shall satisfy itself that reasonable provision is made for the care and support of the poor of the district from which said church is proposed to be removed.
"Should the Court of Teinds be of opinion that any locality from which a church or manse is proposed to be removed is in need of an open space, it may, in its discretion, sanction the removal of such church or manse on condition only that the old church or manse shall be demolished, and that the site thereof shall be cleared and left as an open space in all time coming.—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I hope the noble Lord will look upon my new clause with better favour than he regarded the Amendment I moved to clause 2. The object of this clause is to give directions to the Court of Teinds with regard to the manner in which they are to make alterations under the Act. It does seem to me that very great care should be taken as to the method in which these sites of old churches are dealt with tinder this Bill. My Amendment asks, in the first place, that the Court of Teinds shall be directed to consider carefully all matters of historical or architectural interest, and that they should make provision for the safeguarding of any such objects. The second point raised by my Amendment is that reasonable provision should be made for the

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care of the poor of the parish. It has always been recognised in Scotland that the care of the poor of the parish, whether they belong to the Established Church congregation or not, is essentially a duty of the Established Church of the parish, and of the ministers and elders of that church. John Knox himself laid down that one-third of the Church revenue should go to the Church, one-third to the poor, and one-third to education. I am afraid very little now goes from the Church funds in Scotland to either the poor or to education, but that the ministers take the whole. On these grounds it is all the more necessary, I think, that real provision is made for the poor of the parish, especially in the city districts where, however much the population may have been depleted, there will be a residuum of poor, who will require to have their interests looked after. The third point which this new clause raises is the question of open spaces within the particular district in which the old church is to be abolished. I think, my Lords, and I hope your Lordships will agree with me, that when it is proposed to pull down a church or manse in a densely-populated district one of the subjects which should be carefully considered is whether the site of the church is suitable, as such sites have often been found to be in London, for an open space. I therefore propose that the Court of Teinds should specially inquire into that subject when they are dealing with applications under this Bill, and that they should, if necessary, in making the Order, lay down that the site of the church or manse or churchyard should be applied to this purpose when it is thought desirable. These are the objects of my Amendment, and they are objects which, I think, are very clear and which want very little argument to support them. I know we on this side of the House are in the hands of your Lordships on the other side, and I move this Amendment, therefore, ad miseri-cordiam. I am sure my view is the right one, whatever view may be taken by the noble Lord the Secretary for Scotland.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND: The noble Lord has a confident assurance that he is in the right as to which he will not value my opinion. I am quite willing to accept the first of the paragraphs proposed with one or two verbal alterations. I do not see how there can be any architectural interest in connection with the site or the manse. If the noble Lord would confine it to the church, and substitute for the words "to direct that such church, site, or manse shall be disposed" the words "may direct," which is necessary to make the sentence grammatical, I will accept it. So far as the second and third paragraphs are concerned I am afraid I cannot accept them. With regard to the care and support of the poor, I am not quite sure that I fairly understand the object which the noble Lord has in view. I should think he would have known, so far as the pecuniary support of the poor is concerned, that that has now very largely been transferred from the Kirk Sessions to the parish councils. To accept the Amendment in the form in which it is placed on the Paper would clearly be to presume an interference with the duty of the parish councils. The noble Lord let fall a sort of obiter dictum, if I may so call it, that very little money now went to the poor. I think he underestimates the amount that is done for the poor, but, of course, there is ambiguity in the term "poor." I admit that very little money collected at the church door goes to the poor who are paupers, but a great deal is done for the poor who are not upon the paupers' roll. Of course, I am not able to say whether the proportion so spent is a third or not, but I know from my own experience that a considerable portion is expended in that direction. I object to the Court of Teinds being brought in to look after the spiritual condition of the poor. That is entirely beyond their function, and a function which they could not possibly discharge. The proper court for taking charge of these interests is the Presbytery, and under it the Kirk Sessions. The

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Presbytery is as fully a court of Scotland us the Court of Teinds, and it is to the Presbytery that the spiritual affairs of the district under its charge are committed. The noble Lord may say he has not the same confidence in the Presbytery that I have—
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: Hear, hear.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND: But I believe no Presbytery will consent to the removing of a church if by its removal the spiritual needs and interests of the poor of the district will be prejudiced, and therefore, on that ground, I cannot accept the second paragraph of this Amendment. The third paragraph, of course, opens up a subject which appeals very much to the sympathy of your Lordships. I do not think I can accept it in the form in which it stands, because it seems to imply that if the Court of Teinds so decrees, the whole value of the site and the fabric may be devoted to making an open space for the district. I do not think that is a fair burden to lay on the fund which would be set free, and I am sure the town councils of Edinburgh and Glasgow would take that view. I admit that it is an element, however, which ought to be considered, and if it was put in a form less peremptory than it is I should be glad to consider it. I propose not to accept the second and third paragraphs, but as regards the third paragraph I will postpone the Standing Committee until after Easter to see if I can devise a paragraph which would go somewhat in the direction of meeting the views of the noble Lord.
LORD TWEEDMOUTH: I beg to thank the noble Lord for the modicum of concession he has made to me, but I think what he said as to the amount of the funds which go to the benefit of the poor has gone somewhat in the direction of proving my case. Funds are given to the poor in these parishes now. That is the very thing I want to secure that the poor shall have in the future. I hope the noble Lord may see his way in the Standing Committee to meet that
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point also. I am glad to accept for what it is worth—and I hope it may be of great worth—the Amendment as the noble Lord proposes to alter it.
Question put—
"That this clause, as amended, be here inserted."
Motion agreed to.
Question put—
"That clause 3 stand part of the Bill."
Motion agreed to.
Question put—
"That clause 4 stand part of the Bill."
Motion agreed to.
Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee; and to be printed. (No. 30.)

SUPREME COURT (APPEALS) BILL.
Motion made, and Question proposed—
"That this Bill be read a second time."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (The Earl of HALSBURY): My Lords, I beg to move the Second Reading of this Bill, which is urgently needed, and which enacts that notwithstanding anything in section 12 of the Supreme Court of Judicature Act, 1875, or in section 1 of the Supreme Court of Judicature Act, 1890, if all parties to an appeal or Motion consent to the Appeal or Motion being heard and determined before two Judges of the Court of Appeal, the Appeal or Motion may be heard and determined accordingly, subject, nevertheless, to the same right, if any, of appeal to the House of Lords as if the hearing and determination had been before three judges.
Question put.
Bill read a second time, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House.
House adjourned at Five of the clock.