Sitting of 10 March 1899

MR. SPEAKER'S INDISPOSITION.
The House being met, the Clerk at the Table informed the House of the unavoidable absence of Mr. Speaker, owing to the continuance of his indisposition:—
Whereupon MB. JAMES WILLIAM LOWTHER (Cumberland, Penrith, CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS), proceeded to the Table, and, after Prayers, took the Chair as Deputy Speaker, pursuant to the Standing Order, at Three of the clock.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.

  PRIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER 62 COMPLIED WITH).
  MR. DEPUTY SPEAKERlaid upon the Table Report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That in the case of the following Bill, referred on the First Reading thereof, Standing Order No. 62 has been complied with, viz.:—
  Walker and Wallsend Union Gas (Electric Lighting) Bill.
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.

  PRIVATE BILLS (STANDING ORDER 63 COMPLIED WITH).
  MR. DEPUTY SPEAKERlaid upon the Table report from one of the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, That, in the case of the following Bill, referred on the first reading thereof, Standing Order No. 63 has been complied with, viz.:—
  MENSTONE WATER BILL.
  Ordered that the Bill be read a second time.
  CROWBOROUGH DISTRICT GAS BILL.
  As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
  ST. DAVIDS WATER AND GAS BILL.
  As amended, considered; to be read the third time.
PETITIONS.
  EDUCATION OF CHILDREN BILL.
  Petition from Keighley, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  LOCAL AUTHORITIES SERVANTS SUPERANNUATION BILL.
  Petitions in favour;—From Dorking: and Crick: to lie upon the Table.
  PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE.
  Petition of Mona Caird and others, for extension to women; to lie upon the Table.
  PRIVATE LEGISLATION PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Petitions in favour;—From Scottish Trade Protection Society:—and, Greenock; to lie upon the Table.
  PUBLIC HEALTH ACTS AMENDMENT BILL
  Petitions in favour;—From Blackpool;—and Reading; to lie upon the Table.
  REGISTRATION OF FIRMS BILLS.
  Petition from Birmingham, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL.
  Petitions in favour;—From Ledbury;—Bradford;—Sister Hills;—Hungate;—Monmouth;—Middlesbrough;— Brandon:ߞBristol;—and, Cochester (four): to iie upon the Table.
  SCIENCE AND ART GRANTS.
  Petition from York, for alteration of Law; to lie upon the Table.
  STEAM TRAWLERS (ENCROACHMENT).
  Petitions for protection of fishermen;—From Newbiggin by the Sea (two);—Cambois:—and, Newton by the Sea; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  ASSIZE ACTS, 1876 AND 1879.
  Copies presented,—of two Orders in Council of 7th March 1899, relating to Spring Assize Counties, Nos. 2 and 3 (by Act), to lie upon the Table.
  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1894.
  Copy presented,—of Order in Council, of the 7th March 1899, respecting the Load-line of Ships registered in the Colony of Victoria (by Act), to lie upon the Table.

  PAPERS LAW ON THE TABLE BY TEE CLERK OF THE HOUSE.
  1. Charitable Endowments (London),—Further Return relative thereto [ordered 2nd August 1894; Mr. Francis Stevenson]; to be printed. (No. 101.)
  2. Inquiry into Charities (County of Lancaster),—Further Return relative thereto [ordered 8th August 1898; Mr. Grant Lawson]; to be printed. (No. 102.)

BILL REPORTED.
  CROWBOROUGH DISTRICT WATER BILL.
  Reported; Reports to lie upon the Table.
  FISHGUARD WATER AND GAS BILL.
  Reported; Reports to lie upon the Table.

  PUBLIC LIBRARIES (SCOTLAND) ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  Reported, without Amendment, from the Standing Committee on Law, etc.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. (No. 103.)
  Minutes of Proceedings to be printed. (No. 103.)
  Bill to be read the third time upon Wednesday next.

  STANDING ORDERS.
  Resolutions reported from the Committee:—

  "1. That, in the case of the Dublin Corporation (Markets) Bill, Petition of 'Messieurs Sewall, Son, and Simpson' for dispensing with Standing Order 129 in the case of their Petition against the Bill, the said Standing Order ought to be dispensed with."

  "2. That, in the case of the London Water (Welsh Reservoirs and Works) Petition, the Standing Orders ought to be dispensed with. That the parties to be permitted to proceed with their Bill."

  Resolutions agreed to.

  LONDON WATER (WELSH RESERVOIRS AND WORKS) BILL.
  Report [this day] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
  Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. James Stuart, Mr. Sydney Buxton, and Mr. Moulton.

  SHOPS BILL.
  Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [21st February] deferred from Tuesday next till Tuesday 21st March.

  MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.
  Houses of Lords and Commons Permanent Staff,—That they propose that the Joint Committee appointed to consider and report on the subject of the Houses of Lords and Commons Permanent Staff do meet in Committee Room A on Friday next, at Twelve o'clock.
  Lords Message considered.
  Ordered, That the Committee of this House do meet the Lords Committee as proposed by their Lordships.
  Message to the Lords to acquaint thorn therewith.—(Sir William Walrond.)

NEW BILLS.
  FINE OK IMPRISONMENT (SCOTLAND AND IRELAND) BILL.
  "To assimilate the Law of Scotland and of Ireland as to Imprisonment on default of payment of Fines to that of England," presented, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. (Bill 121.)
  WINE AND BEERHOUSE ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  "To amend the Law relating to the Licensing of Beerhouses and Places for the Sale of Cider and Wine by retail in England and Wales," presented, and read the first time: to be read a second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. (Bill 122.)
QUESTIONS.

  CANADIAN TARIFFS.
  COLONEL SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can inform the House what has been the result, as regards British goods, of the first six months operation of the preferential terms granted on 1st August, 1898, by the Dominion of Canada to imports from the United Kingdom, India, the West Indies, and other parts of the British Empire; and, if the Governments of Australasia and South Africa or of any Crown Colonies have already or are likely, in the near future, to adopt the same system?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOB THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): The United Kingdom Trade Returns for the six months ended the 31st January 1899, show in respect of the exports to Canada of the chief enumerated articles an increase of a little over 1 per cent. over the figures for the period ended 31st January, 1898. If, however, the
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  exports during the month of July last, the greater part of which would have arrived in Canada under the preferential tariff, are taken into account, the increase would be a little over 6 per cent. The period is. however, too short, even if complete statistics were available, to form an accurate judgment of the effect of the preferential tariff on the trade between the United Kingdomand Canada. As regards other parts of the Empire to which the preferential tariff extends, statistics are available only for India, and these show a slight decrease, but the trade between Canada and India is so small and the period is so short that it is impossible to draw any conclusion from the figures. No other Colonial Government has as yet adopted the same system. As regards the future, I have nothing to add to the answer which I gave to a similar Question by the honourable Member on the 29th July last.

  COUNCILLOR GAGEBY, OF BELFAST
  MR. MADDISON: I beg to ask Mr. Attorney-General for Ireland whether he is aware that Councillor Gageby, of Belfast, has been deprived of his seat on the Belfast Corporation by reason of his name having been omitted from the register of voters after it had appeared on the revising barrister's list; whether he will cause an inquiry to be held to ascertain how this irregularity occurred; and, whether he will take the necessary steps to restore Mr. Gageby's name to the register?
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. ATKINSON,): A similar Question was addressed on Tuesday last to my right honourable Friend the Chief Secretary by the honourable Member for South Down. To the reply given to that Question, to which I beg to refer the honourable Member, I have nothing to add.
  MR. MADDISON: If it can be proved that the name had appeared in the town clerk's list, would that fact in any way alter the answer?
  MR. ATKINSON: It is entirely a matter for the local authorities.

  LONDON AND NORTH WESTERN RAILWAY COMPANY'S SERVANTS.
  MR. MADDISON: I beg to ask the president of the Board of Trade, whether he will make a further appeal to the London and North Western Railway Company to adopt the recommendation made in the Board of Trade Circular respecting the hours of flagmen and watchmen employed in tunnels, that company being the only one which has refused to adopt the eight-hour spell of duty?
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: May I ask the right honourable Gentleman a Question, of which I have given him private notice, namely, will the, right honourable Gentleman make a further appeal to the directors of this company, through the Secretary to the Admiralty, who has become a director of the company since he became a Member of this House?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. C. T. RITCHIE,): No, Sir; any appeal I make must be through the Secretary to the Hoard and not through the Secretary to the Admiralty. I have communicated again with the London and North Western, and the general manager informs the Board of Trade that
  "This company has no objection to such a general rule so long as it is not made a hard and fast regulation."

  HYDE PARK.
  COLONEL WELBY: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether his attention has been drawn to the number of persons of evil character who haunt Hyde Park and Green Park during and after nightfall; and, whether he can see his way to a better supervision of these parks in the evening?
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. A. AKERS DOUGLAS, Kent,): Disorderly conduct in Hyde Park has of course been brought to my notice from time to time; but the matter is properly one for the action of the police authorities, and they are. I believe, fully alive to it.

  EX-LORD CHANCELLORS' PENSIONS.
  MR. COGHILL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will take advantage of there being no ex-Lord Chancellor alive to alter the amount of pension paid to ex-Lord Chancellors, and to reduce it to the same amount that is given, when claimed, to other Cabinet Ministers?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,): I do not think there is any analogy between the office of Lord Chancellor and that of any other Cabinet Minister with regard to a claim to pension. When anyone is appointed Lord Chancellor he necessarily gives up a lucrative practice at the Bar, and cannot return to his profession on resignation of office, which he may hold for a very short time. Ex-Lord Chancellors sit regularly as Judges of Appeal, so that the more proper comparison would be with the pensions of judges. Regarded from these points of view, the pension of a Lord Chancellor does not appear to me to be too high.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILL: Is the right honourable Gentleman aware that the honourable Member who asked the Question is wrong in saying there is no ex-Lord Chancellor alive? The Right Honourable Samuel Walker, ex-Lord Chancellor of Ireland, one of the best judges we ever had, is still in the land of the living.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I understood the honourable Gentleman to refer to England.

  TELEGRAM ADDRESSES.
  MR. SIDEBOTHAM: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster-General, why the Post Office is giving notice of its intention to refuse to deliver all telegrams which have for an address merely the surname of the addressee and the post town in which he lives; whether in cases in which there is only one person of the name living in the district, and that person has only one residence, and that residence is perfectly well known, the requirements of the Post Office that the address

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  should contain the necessary particulars to insure delivery without difficulty and without inquiries or references to directories are not complied with, why, in such cases, the registration of the address and the payment of it fee of one guinea should be demanded; and whether the Post Office is not bound to deliver a telegram in cases where there can be no doubt as to the person for whom it is intended?
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,): The Post Office has not recently issued any general notice on the subject to which the honourable Member refers. Probably he has in view some particular case, and if he will bring it to the Postmaster-General's notice inquiry will be made into the circumstances. The Telegraph Regulations require that the address of a telegram shall be sufficient to enable delivery to be effected without difficulty or delay, and unless the Regulations are complied with the Postmaster-General is not bound to deliver a telegram.

  INNISKEEN RAILWAY ACCIDENT.
  MR. MACALEESE (): I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, can he state the extent of the damage caused by the derailing of a cattle train some days ago at Inniskeen on the Great Northern Railway of Ireland, when, as reported in the Press, several dealers were seriously hurt, and a large number of cattle killed and many shockingly injured; were many of the cattle, in all degrees of mutilation, turned into a field and allowed to lie there in agony for many hours, as the railway management would not undertake the liability of directing their slaughter; and, if so, will a prosecution be ordered; and has the cause of the accident been ascertained; if so, will he state it to the House?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: The Board of Trade have ordered an inquiry into the causes of this accident.
  MR. MACALEESE: Can the right honourable Gentleman say when it will be held?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: No, Sir, I cannot.

  LORD PENZANCE.
  MR. COGHILL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer if he could state what was the yearly sum paid to Lord Penzance as Judge of the Court of Arches; and whether he had any duties to perform in connection with his office?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Nothing was paid to Lord Penzance as Judge of the Court of Arches out of public funds. The duties are described in the Public Worship Regulation Act, 1874.
  MR. COGHILL: Did he not receive a sum of £5,000 a year?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER:: No, Sir. He received a pension for his service as Judge, but nothing as Judge of the High Court of Arches.

  UNCLAIMED DEBTORS' ESTATES.
  MR. HAZELL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether trustees administering estates under deeds of arrangement are often left with unclaimed sums which it is not the duty of any Government Department to accept from them, as is done in similar cases where proceedings have been taken in bankruptcy; whether he has any means of knowing what amount the sums so held reach, and how long they have been in the present hands; and whether it is proposed to take any steps to relieve such trustees in the future from this difficulty?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: The answer to the first part of the Question is in the affirmative. I am not at present in a position to state the amount of unclaimed funds in the hands of trustees under deeds of arrangement, nor can I promise legislation on the subject.

  RESIDENT ENGINEER TO THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.
  MR. HAZELL: I beg to ask the secretary to the Treasury whether the Resident Engineer at the Houses of Parliament, who is also Consulting Engineer to the Trustees of the British Museum, is also the Engineer to the Royal Courts of Justice; and, if so, why that fact is not noted in the Estimates on the Votes for his salary: and whether there is any reason why his salary as Resident Engineer at the Houses of Parliament, which is stated to be £250 per annum, rising by £7 10s. per annum to £300, should be again raised to £308 in the Estimates for next year?
  MR. HANBURY: The Resident Engineer to the Houses of Parliament is not Engineer to the Royal Courts of Justice. He vacated that post on his appointment to his present position. The statement in the Estimates that his salary for 1889–1900 will be £308 is due to a clerical error. The amount should, of course, be given as £300.

  TREASURY VALUER.
  MR. HAZELL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he has observed that, according to the Estimates, Class I., it is proposed to appoint a new Treasury Valuer and Inspector of Rates at the same salary, namely, £1,000 rising by £50 annually to £1,200, as paid to the present holder of the office, in spite of the fact that the salary has been starred in the Estimates for many years, and a note appended that it would be revised on a vacancy; and whether he can say by whose authority this appointment is proposed to be made on such terms, and who is responsible for the omission of the footnote referred to from this year's Estimates?
  MR. HANBURY: Yes, Sir. The facts of the case are as follows: —A Treasury Minute, dated 28th June. 1892. fixed the salary of Mr. Griffiths, who then held the post of Treasury Valuer and Inspector of Rates, at £1,200 a year, with the proviso that this rate would not be continued to his successor. A note was in-
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  serted in the Estimates for the years 1893–4 to 1898–9 embodying this proviso, and the salary of the post has accordingly been reduced from a fixed amount of £1,200 to £1,000, rising by annual increments of £20 to £1,200. This reduction was effected in spite of the fact that in recent years circumstances have recently led to a considerable increase in the work of valuation. The omission of the footnote, for which I am responsible, was necessary and proper.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING.
  MR. BAYLEY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he can state the number of local authorities that have obtained and are holding Provisional Orders for electric lighting without doing anything to carry their powers into practical effect?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: There are 30 local authorities who have obtained Provisional Orders for electric lighting who have taken no steps to give effect to their Orders within the time prescribed for the execution of compulsory works. Besides these there are 63 local authorities who obtained Orders in 1897 and 1898 and have apparently done no work, but the time prescribed by their Orders has not yet expired. I may mention that the Board of Trade have lately been calling the attention of local authorities who are not exercising their powers to the matter, and have intimated that the Board propose to consider the question of revoking the Orders. In nearly all of these cases the local authorities have replied that they are now taking steps to carry their Orders into execution.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Can the right honourable Gentleman say how many authorities who have obtained powers are exercising them?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: I am afraid I cannot answer that Question.

  BAILIEBOROUGH UNION NURSE.
  MR. YOUNG: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a trained nurse, Miss Widdess, was appointed by the Bailieborough (county Cavan) Board of Guardians last year, and that the appointment was approved and confirmed by the Local Government Board: whether Miss Widdess has discharged her duties to the entire satisfaction of the medical officer; and why the Local Government Board seeks, after sanctioning the appointment, to surcharge the lady's salary, and thus compel the guardians to inflict great injury on the competent nurse referred to?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY TO THE LORD LIEUTENANT OF IRELAND (Mr. GERALD W. BALFOUR,): The appointment of Miss Widdess as infirmary nurse of the Bailieborough Workhouse was sanctioned by the Local Government Board two years ago. The reply to the second parapraph is in the affirmative. Under section 58, subsection 2 of the Local Government (Ireland) Act, it was obligatory on the Board to prescribe the qualifications necessary in the case of any person claiming to be a trained nurse for the purpose of obtaining recoupment under the section. Miss Widdess does not possess the necessary qualification. There is no question of surcharging the salary of this lady. The repayment of half the salary of a trained nurse will not apply until the financial year commencing the 1st April. The Board have, in cases like that of Miss Widdess, where the existing nurse is approved by the medical officer, decided to allow the guardians to give leave of absence to the nurse for such a period as will enable her to complete the training necessary to place her on the board's register of trained nurses, the only condition being that the Guardians shall appoint a qualified person to act as her locum tenens. A Circular Letter to this effect is about to be issued to boards of guardians.

  NEWFOUNDLAND AND THE REID CONTRACT.
  SIR F. EVANS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is within the
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  competence of a future Parliament in Newfoundland to disaffirm the Reid contract by statute, having regard to the circumstances under which it was obtained?
  TUB SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: It would be competent to a future Parliament to pass an Act annulling a contract ratified by an Act passed by the present Parliament, but I must not be understood to express any opinion on the circumstances attending the making of the contract referred to in the Question.

  CANADIAN FISHERIES.
  GENERAL LAURIE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies what has been the result of the negotiations with Portugal with the object of obtaining the most favoured nation clause, thus removing the disabilities under which the Newfoundland and Canadian fisheries are placed in competition with the Norwegian fisheries, which were mentioned by the Secretary of State for the Colonies to a deputation on the subject on the 29th April, 1897, and stated in a letter from the Colonial Office to the London Chamber of Commerce to be still in progress on the 31st January, 1898.
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. ST. JOHN BRODRICK,): The negotiations between Great Britain and Portugal with the object of securing a most-favoured-nation clause have not as yet led to any satisfactory result, so that I cannot make any statement on the question.

  CASE OF M. LE MESURIER.
  MR. STEVENSON: On behalf of the honourable Member for North Manchester, I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he is aware that M. C. J. R. Le Mesurier, on refusing to leave his own property in Ceylon without an order of Court, was violently assaulted by Government officials who were afterwards sentenced

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  to three months' imprisonment by the High Court, and that in this case the Government prosecuting department appeared for the accused, by special order from the Attorney-General of Ceylon, although it is this very department that has to give the instructions for the commitment of and the prosecution of the accused in the Supreme Court; whether these same officials, after serving their term of imprisonment, are now to be reinstated by the Government; and whether he has communicated by telegraph with the Governor of Ceylon, instructing him to prevent any further police raids?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: I have received memorials from M. Le Mesurier, complaining of his treatment by the Government of Ceylon, one of which contains allegations to the effect of the honourable Member's first Question. An early report has been promised by the Governor on the subject of these memorials, and pending the receipt of this report, I have not telegraphed, and do not propose to telegraph any special instructions as to the course to be adopted by the Ceylon Government in the case of M. Le Mesurier.

  INDIA AND BOUNTY-FED SUGAR.
  COLONEL SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if the Government of India has with his approval determined to levy a countervailing duly on the importation of Foreign bounty-fed sugar?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord G. HAMILTON,): A Bill, under which countervailing duties will be imposed upon all bounty-fed sugar imported into India, has, I believe, been introduced to-day, with my approval, into the Legislative Council at Calcutta.
  MR. MACLEAN: May I ask the noble Lord whether this Bill has been introduced with his assent?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA: I have already said so.
  MR. MACLEAN: Does the noble Lord intend to submit this change of policy to the House of Commons before it is carried into effect?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA: I have more than once told my honourable Friend I have no intention of interfering with the independence of the local Legislature.
  MR. MACLEAN: Does the noble Lord remember how he interfered with that independence in the case of the cotton duties?
  MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order, order!

  WATER GAS.
  MR. ASCROFT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has been called to the report of the Departmental Committee appointed to inquire into the manufacture and use of water gas and other gases containing a large proportion of carbonic oxide, and to the dangers that are likely to arise to the public safety unless restrictions are placed upon the manufacture, as recommended by such Committee; and whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill dealing with the question?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. J. COLUNGS,): The Report of the Departmental Committee was made to the Secretary of State, and it was by him that it was laid upon the Table of the House. He is now consulting his colleagues the Presidents of the Board of Trade and of the Local Government Board, who were represented on the Committee, as to the recommendations; but it has not yet been decided what action should be taken.

  IRELAND AND THE PARIS EXHIBITION.
  MR. CAREW: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether it is true that the funds set apart for the Irish Committee in connection with the Royal Commission on the Paris Exhibition have been cut

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  off; whether the Irish Committee and Sub-Committee are about to be dissolved; and whether, if this is so, any steps are to be taken to facilitate intending Irish exhibitors at the Exhibition of 1900?
  MR. HANBURY: I understand that the correspondence which has passed between the Royal Commission in London and the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland will be published in the Irish newspapers to-morrow morning, together with the report of the proceedings of the Irish Committee up to date. I should be glad, therefore, if the honourable Member would postpone his Question till Monday.

  CHINESE NORTHERN RAILWAY EXTENSION LOAN.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Russian Government, or the Russian Minister at Pekin, have withdrawn their protest against the conditions of the Chinese Northern Railway Extension Loan, and especially the protest against the appointment of an English railway engineer and of an English accountant to supervise the work of the railway?
  MR. BRODRICK: We have not heard that the Russian Minister has actually withdrawn his protest, which was made verbally. But so far as we are aware it has not been confirmed by any written communication, and we have reason to believe that it will not be renewed. The object of the protest was indicated in the answer given yesterday.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Are we to understand that the Russian Government have not supported the demand of their Minister at Pekin?
  MR. BRODRICK: I cannot add anything to what I have said.

  SALES OF CROWN ESTATES IN SCOTLAND.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he will state whether any of the £44 969 8s. 5d. received from the sales
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  of estates, as recorded in the Woods, Forests, and Land Revenue Abstract Accounts 1897–8, has been derived from estates in Scotland; and, if so, will he give the names of the estates?
  MR. HANBURY: Out of the £44,969 mentioned by the honourable Member £1 10s. 0d. was received from estates in Scotland for the sale of a piece of ground adjoining Fortrose Cathedral Churchyard.

  SALES OF OBSOLETE VESSELS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty if he will state the respective sums received from the sale during the financial year 1898–9, of torpedo boats Nos. 68, 88, and 98, also the ships "Victor Emmanuel," "Indus," "Resistance," and "Nelson"?
  THE SECRETARY TO HIE ADMIRALTY (Mr. W. E. MACARTNEY,): I have already informed the honourable Member that it is not usual to give the prices realised.

  PROVOST MUNGALL OF COWDENBEATH.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that the Provost of Cowdenbeath, Fifeshire, Provost Mungall, is also manager of the Fife Coal Company at Cowdenbeath, and that the Provost, as representing the local authority, has declined to take any steps to require the Company to provide protection for the public at their railway level crossing which passes across High Street, Cowdenbeath; and, having regard to the fact that the county council, in respect of its road administration, is not responsible to any Government Department, will he consider the expediency of introducing legislation so that a local authority which happens to be under the control of a private company may be compelled to see that suitable provision is made for the public safety?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: No, Sir: this is a matter within the discretion of the Road Authority, and I am not prepared to introduce legislation to interfere with that discretion.

  AUTOMATIC RAILWAY COUPLINGS.
  MR. GEDGE: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade on what expert evidence he relied as to accidents on railways and sidings in Great Britain and Ireland caused by coupling and uncoupling trucks, and as to the effect of the American system, when he introduced the Bill for the Regulation of Railways, and whether that evidence was based on oral or written reports, and who gave it; and whether he will lay upon the Table all such reports?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: My honourable Friend invites me to take a very inconvenient course- -namely, to make a Second Reading speech in answer to a Question. I must reserve what I have to say on the matter until the Second Reading of the Bill.
  MR. BAYLEY: Will the right honourable Gentleman place a model of the American couplings in the Tea-room?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: I do not propose to exhibit any model. The Measure I have introduced into the House does not set up any coupling, American or otherwise; and I should be very sorry to become godfather to all the various inventions which are in existence in regard to couplings.
  MR. COGHILL: Is the right honourable Gentleman aware that in the only place in which these couplings have been tried in this country they have been condemned in the most unqualified manner by the workmen?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: I am not aware of anything of the kind. I am aware that yesterday I saw an entire train at the Great Central terminus fitted with the American automatic couplings.
  MR. GEDGE: Can we see the reports?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE: If my honourable Friend will inform me what reports he requires I will consider the Question. I have already laid on the Table the report of the Assistant Secretary to the Board of Trade dealing with the information he obtained on his visit to America.

  ARMY ESTIMATES.
  SIR C. DILKE: I wish to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that notice was not given in the Blue Order Paper issued to Members this morning of the fact that the Army Estimates were to be taken to-night, and that, in consequence, some honourable Members on both sides of the House who take the greatest interest in the Army Estimates and had put Amendments down to some of the Votes, have left town? I do not know whether I should be in order in putting to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, the point of order. I prefer at present simply to raise it as a question of public convenience.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): It is perfectly true that there was a printer's error in the Blue Order Paper, but it is corrected in the White Paper. I made the statement in the House more than once that the Army Estimates would be taken to-night; and I do not think there can be any misconception in any part of the House as to the intentions of the Government.
  SIR C. DILKE: The right honourable Gentleman made such a statement some days ago, but he did not mention it yesterday, and many Members have thought there was a change in the intentions of the Government.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: As far as Government time is concerned it is a matter of indifference to us whether we take the Army Votes to-night or not, but if not to-night, it will be necessary to take them on Tuesday. I am only thinking of the convenience of private Members.
  SIR C. DILKE: On a Question of Order, may I ask you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, whether a public notice some days ago by a Minister, that he intended to take a particular Vote on a particular day without any subsequent reference to it, is sufficient as against the order mentioned in the Blue Paper? On the 8th March 1898, there was a similar case in regard to Supply, and on that occasion complaint was made that the Blue Paper, which was effective notice to Members, had been circulated without the item of effective Supply, which had, however, been put on the White Paper. The Secretary to the

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  Treasury apologised to the House, and Mr. Speaker subsequently said a mistake had evidently been made, and the notice of effective Supply was insufficient. I am aware that there is a precedent of public notice having been given definitely where it was held to overrule this decision, but I want to ask if the somewhat vague public notice of Tuesday last is sufficient under the circumstances that in the meantime there has been no further reference?
  MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: At a date subsequent to that quoted by the right honourable Baronet an almost identical thing occurred. A precisely similar point was raised on 21st June 1889. Owing to a printer's error certain Votes did not appear on the Blue Paper, but the error was corrected and the Votes did appear on the White Paper. On that occasion also public notice had been given that the Votes in question would be taken, and Mr. Speaker ruled in consequence that notwithstanding the printer's error the Votes could be taken, and they were taken. I feel bound to follow that precedent.
  MR. CALDWELL: On Tuesday the notice was that Vote I would be taken. Now there are two Army Votes down.
  MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER: I do not think the Government can take more than the one Vote.
  MR. PIRIE (): I appeal to the Government not to take the Army Votes to-night. I, for one, wish to raise an important question as to recruiting.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I will not go behind appeals of this sort, sincerely made, as I am sure they are, by honourable Members, and I will not take the Army Votes to-night. Therefore, on Monday I shall move to take Tuesday.

  COURSE OF BUSINESS.
  MR. McKENNA: What will be the business next Thursday?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I hope to be able to take the Navy Estimates.
  MR. McKENNA: And on Friday?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: That depends on the progress made on Thursday.

  TELEPHONIC COMMUNICATION BILL.
  SIR J. FERGUSSON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he will postpone the Second Reading of the Telephone Communication Bill, which is down for Thursday next, for another week, as the Bill is not yet printed, and being of great importance requires time for consideration?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: Yes, Sir; I am quite willing to enter into an engagement not to take the Bill for at least a fortnight.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.
  Considered in Committee.
  Mr. JOHN ELLIS (Nottingham, Rushcliffe) in the Chair.
  (In the Committee.)

CIVIL SERVICES AND REVENUE DEPARTMENTS (SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES), 1898–99.

  CLASS V.
  1. £256,000, Supplementary, Uganda, Central and East Africa Protectorates, and Uganda Railway.
  Debate resumed on the Question—
  "That a supplementary sum not exceeding £256,000 be granted to Her Majesty to defray the charge which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st day of March 1899 for grants-in-aid to Uganda, British Central Africa, and British East Africa."
  *SIR C. DILKE: I had rather anticipated that the Colonial Office Vote would have been taken first, but as we arc going to finish

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  the Vote on Uganda I should like to put two questions to the right honourable Gentleman the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs. Since the discussion which occurred on this Vote a few days ago we have heard from the ordinary sources of information of the return from Lake Rudolph of the expedition under Colonel Macdonald, which started in the autumn. I am sure the House will be glad to obtain any information which the right honourable Gentleman can give us in regard to that expedition, and whether it is intended to abandon the further prosecution of the expedition. The right honourable Gentleman led us to understand that the main object of Major Macdonald's expedition was to explore the neighbourhood of Lake Rudolph, and then to pass on to the sources of the Juba. The very large expense involved in sending the expedition hundreds of miles further than Lake Rudolph has evidently led to its being entirely abandoned; but, as we understand it, the expedition did leave some small stations in the neighbourhood of that lake which, however, had been previously partially surveyed by two private expeditions. Any information the right honourable Gentleman can give us will be grateful to the House. While I am on this question, I may refer to the slight indignation which the right honourable Gentleman showed at our pressing for information on the case of the Mombasa fugitive slaves. He told this House that it ought to be content with the statement that communication had been made with the Colonial authorities, but that great difficulty was experienced in reaching them. I ask the right honourable Gentleman when these communications with the Colonial authorities took place. Surely the right honourable Gentleman knows quite well that inquiries were made in regard to the matter last-Session, and if communication had been made at once to the Colonial authorities the information might have been obtained shortly after the House adjourned last Session If the right honourable Gentleman waited till this year before he called for a Report, you cannot wonder at the delay in obtaining the information. I want to ask when the communications were made with the Colonial authorities, and when he expects to receive a Report?
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. St. J. BRODRICK,): I am sorry that the right honourable Baronet is under the impression that on a previous occasion I had showed indignation in connection with this subject. If there was any, it was not against the right honourable Baronet personally, but only against an expression which was used by another honourable Member, and which seemed to me to be uncalled for. I objected to the expression that we appeared to be purposely withholding information from the public. I have looked into this matter as regards the actual date when communication was made with the Colonial authorities as to the Mombasa fugitive slaves, and I find that there was some little delay at the Foreign Office in making the inquiries. A pledge was given last Session by Mr. Curzon (now Lord Curzon) the day before he was taken ill to make inquiries; but his illness intervening the matter was not taken up again until he was able to attend to business at the end of August, and there was some delay in sending out instructions to the Protectorate authorities. Had I known that this question would be raised I would have obtained the particulars as to the date when these-inquiries were made. As yet we have no information from Mombasa, but it ought to be here in about a fortnight from this date. We are using every power we have in order to accelerate its arrival, and we shall have it before the House when we come to discuss this matter again. With regard to Colonel Macdonald's expedition, it is quite true that since we discussed the Vote last week Colonel Macdonald has actually returned to Mombasa, and is now in telegraphic touch with England. That, however, does not enable me to give the Committee any material information beyond that which I gave to the House a few nights ago. But I may say that Colonel Macdonald has returned to Mombasa from Juba, he having carried out to a considerable extent the work which it was intended he should do, and that his mission has now terminated. I understand that the Colonel, as the result of his expedition, has obtained important and valuable information, but we must now wait the arrival of the mail in order

  453
  to get the details. As I have said, we have only telegraphic information that Colonel Macdonald has actually reached the coast, and is now on his way to England. When he returns the Government will be prepared to lay on the Table of the House whatever Papers we can that show the results of his expedition. It is to be clearly understood, however, that Colonel Macdonald has carned out his original instructions, and that his expedition has now terminated. The expedition of Colonel Martyr, which is now going on up the Nile, is under separate instructions.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: The first item in the Estimates of Uganda states that the original Estimate of the grant-in-aid was £142,000, and that the additional sum required is £197,000, so that the so called Supplementary Estimate is much larger than the original. I wish to raise this point because it is a question of the manner of keeping the public accounts. Supplementary Estimates are intended for items which cannot possibly be foreseen, and they are intended to apply to absolutely nothing else; for, however small they may be, they are always a disturbing element in the public accounts. This year we have two millions of Supplementary Estimates, and these two millions will have to be provided for out of next year's receipts, although sometimes Supplementary Estimates are provided out of the previous year's receipts. I am not sure that a surplus is to be anticipated this time. My point is that a Supplementary Estimate should be capable of being explained as an expenditure that could not have been foreseen at the time the original Estimates were made up. I am, therefore, justified in asking the right honourable Gentleman to give me some answer to the question how it is that when this Estimate for Uganda of £142,000 was made up he did not foresee such a large additional expenditure as £197,000 would be required.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Will the right honourable Gentleman at the same time inform us to what point on the Nile the expedition of Colonel Martyr has reached?
  *MR. BRODRICK: I stated the other night that Colonel Martyr had reached a. point on the Nile, the exact name of which I forget. We have had no direct information from him since his expedition left Dufile. There was a rumour that he has not yet reached Lado. As to the honourable Member for King's Lynn, I always welcome him when he appears in the particular role of financial purist. When I sat on the other side of the House with him I humbly assisted him in that role as far as I could. I think his Question is a perfectly fair one, but I also think I answered it the other night. of the £197,000, which is the addition to the original Estimate of which he complains, no less a sum than £175,000 was due to the necessity of bringing to Uganda an Indian regiment, and taking it up country at an enormous cost for transport and supplies. Now, the Indian regiment was brought after the original Estimate was framed, and the difficulties of transport in the conditions of the country at the time rendered it impossible to make any estimate of what the expense would be. I may remind the Committee that the bringing of the Indian regiment was absolutely necessary at the time in order to secure the quelling of the mutiny, in which they did such excellent service. I believe I can assure the Committee that there is not a single item in that £197,000 which could have been foreseen at the time the Estimate was prepared. It was entirely due to the mutiny and the bringing of the Indian regiment to Uganda, with the exception of the sum for the new steam launch ordered for the Lake.
  *MR. McKENNA: I do not think the right honourable Gentleman is altogether right in regard to the exceptional expenditure of £197,000 if he compares last year's Estimates with those of 1899–1900. I maintain that had the proper Estimate been taken for Uganda last year we should not have been met now by this extraordinary Supplementary Estimate—so much larger than the original Estimate. Did I understand the right honourable Gentleman to say that Colonel Macdonald's instructions have been fully carried out when he stated that Colonel Macdonald's expedition was completed?
  *MR. BRODRICK: The expression I used was that Colonel Macdonald's instructions had been largely carried out. These instructions were that he was to make an exploration of the sources of the Juba, and to map out the whole country. What he attempted to carry out he has carried out—the most difficult part of his instructions. As regards the particular Estimates for Uganda, it must be remembered that they have to be given in some time in November, and that it was absolutely impossible early in November to estimate what would be required in the disturbed state of the country for the following year. Moreover, in the matter of the Uganda Estimates considerable difficulty was experienced because of the lateness with which certain of the accounts were presented or the information with regard to them was received.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: Mr. Deputy Speaker, perhaps the right honourable Gentleman will give us some information with reference to the details of this excess sum of £197,000? Surely there must have been some basis to go on for the original Estimate of £142,000! It seems to me that £197,000 is an enormous sum to take this expedition from Mombasa to Juba and back.
  MR. BUCHANAN: Speaking from my experience, and from what has come within my own knowledge as a member of the Public Accounts Committee, I can corroborate the statement of the right honourable Gentleman that the Uganda administration is very much behindhand in rendering its accounts. The Auditor-General has not yet got these accounts later than 3lst December 1896. If these accounts were rendered up to date accurately it would be possible to make the Estimates more accurate in future. And I trust that the Colonial authorities in Uganda will be stimulated to render their accounts hereafter more regularly. I should like to ask the right honourable Gentleman as to the second item in the Vote fur British Central Africa, of £5,000 for the Sikhs, whether that is in any way connected with the reorganisation of the regiment which was brought up to quell the mutiny, of with those Sikhs who were going back to India after their term of service had expired
  *SIR C. DILKE: The honourable Gentleman the Member for East Aberdeen seems to be under the impression, as a member of the Public Accounts Committee, that there is some fault on the part of the local administration of Uganda in rendering their accounts at a late date. But if he refers to Mr. Berkeley's report, he will see that the mutiny of the Soudanese was caused by the delay in the preparation of the Estimates for their payment, for the purpose of laying them before the House of Commons. We cannot fix the blame on the local authorities. The fault was with the Foreign Office.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: My complaint is that we have not got the exact dates in regard to the Mombasa slave case. The right honourable Gentleman does not tell us when he received the information on which ho decided to act. Did he learn it from the newspapers, or from reports made outside this House, or from some official source? The girl Kombo, who had been for 10 years under the protection of the missionaries at Ribe, was handed over to a former master, Salehe Bin Husein, last July, and the right honourable Gentleman must have had some information on the subject which will enable him to give us any information we require. In all these cases we are put off from time to time. When atrocities take place we are told someone must be written to; and then, long afterwards, we find that the right honourable Gentleman responsible in this House is unable to give us any information at all, and puts it off to some future occasion. In regard to Colonel Macdonald's expedition, it appears to me to be one of the most absurd and eminently silly expeditions ever dreamt of by the mind of man. Colonel Macdonald appears to have been sent on a wild goose expedition to look for the sources of the Juba, and he seems to have come to the conclusion that they did not exist, and were not to be found. The right honourable Gentleman told us, in regard to the Juba river, that the Government had entered into an agreement to make it the frontier between the Italian sphere of influence and our sphere of influence, and he pleaded, as a reason for Colonel Macdonald's expedition, that, having entered into that agreement, we ought

  457
  to know where (the river was. I believe it was known before where the river is, and that steamers have gone up it. There was, therefore, no earthly object in sending an expedition to find where the Juba was. Was Colonel Macdonald recalled, or did he himself come to the conclusion that, as he had spent a large amount of money, he ought to come back? Why, when it was quite well known that there might be trouble in Uganda, and that the people were not well affected to our rule, should you have taken a large number of the Soudanese garrison which had been raised in order to keep down the Ugandese, and have sent them off to the Juba river? I pointed out the other night that the expedition started with a large number of women and children, who were afterwards sent back. These Soudanese were angry because they understood when they were enlisted in our service that they were to be employed in the Soudan, and to live there with their women and children. When they were ordered to the Juba, they got a vague idea into their heads that you wanted to conquer some other country, to raise the British flag, and declare it part of the British Empire, or some nonsense like that. These Soudanese, who seem an exceedingly intelligent body of men, were not to be caught by such nonsense, and therefore they mutinied. Now, we are told that Colonel Martyr, for whom the main part of the Vote is put down, has gone off on another expedition. I want to understand what Colonel Martyr is really doing. Is he confining himself to the waterway with his gunboats, or is he in any sort of way taking steps to establish posts in order to administer the vast extent of country that lies between Uganda and Omdurman, or wherever the Egyptian frontier is at the present moment? Are you, at the present moment, engaged in any expedition with the view of practically bringing under the British Protectorate those large tracts of country which you say are within our sphere of influence? I have not yet understood why the right honourable Gentleman puts down this large expenditure to the necessity of moving an Indian regiment up to Uganda. He says, perfectly truly, that it is an exceedingly expensive operation, but he should have
  458
  thought of that before he entered into that expedition. I take it that that regiment of Indians consists of 1,000 men. Do I understand that the whole of that £150,000 was expended in sending these Indians up to Uganda? There is another point I should like to ask. When you send a regiment up country, you have to take porters from the coast. Is the way of getting these porters a system of slavery? Do you make an arrangement with the owners of the porters and pay them for their services; and are these porters actually and positively obliged to go, whether they like it or not? Is it not the case that they are naturally subject to the discipline of slaves; and although they receive a small amount of money themselves, does not the largest amount of the money paid for their services go to their owners? Again, does the right honourable Gentleman say that there are at present a sufficient number of troops in Uganda, or are we to anticipate further reinforcements of troops being sent there? The fact is, that this Uganda is a perfect sink for the money of England. Nobody did suppose when that country was taken over in the vague way we generally do these things, that we should go on spending money as we are spending it at the present time. The right honourable Gentleman says that he does not contemplate administering the country until the railway is built. But that will take many years. The right honourable Gentleman himself says it will take three years. Are we to go on perpetuating this enormous expenditure of money for years to come? Here you have a huge country, with a large population; you are attempting to rule it on the cheap, because you hope when you have a railway you will get more money to administer it. All this is an entire mistake. What we should have done was to have withdrawn these troops, and to have had nothing to do with Soudanese regiments or Indian regiments. A certain number of missionaries were there, and they got on very well before you went there; but ever since you have been there, there has been a long series of wars. You are never satisfied with the frontiers you have. Take the case of Unyora: it is perfectly understood that that country was not in any way connected with Uganda. We were told

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  that the King of Unyora—King Kabarega—was a very wicked man, and he was sent out of his country, and Unyora was annexed to Uganda. This is all the more preposterous because, first of all, you sent a force to attack King Kabarega, as he occupied regions which belonged to Egypt, and that you said you wanted to establish Egyptian rule there. Is the Egyptian flag flying in Unyora, or is the English flag? or, under the system of the partnership of the lion and the lamb, are the English and the Egyptian flags flying there? So far as I know, we have declared our Protectorate over Unyora, but what earthly right had we, if the country belonged to Egypt, to conquer that country and lay hold of it for ourselves?
  *MR. BRODRICK: So far as I have been able to follow the remarks of the honourable Gentleman, I think he made them, and that I answered them, on the last occasion on which this Vote was discussed. We had also a Division on it. Item C (grant-in-aid of British East Africa) was discussed separately. I wish to know, Mr. Ellis, if the honourable Gentleman is in order in discussing this question?
  THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: I think the honourable Member is in order. If he had not been, I would have called him to order at once.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Can the right honourable Gentleman the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs give us any further information as to the real character of the Soudanese troops? On the last occasion on which the honourable Member for Northampton addressed the Committee, he described these Soudanese troops as the most horrible set of brutes that had ever existed. To-night he describes them as a highly intelligent set of men.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: There is such a thing as an intelligent brute.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: One other question I should like to ask. The honourable Member for Northampton informed us that the missionaries had a very happy time of it before our arrival in Uganda, I want to know whether
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  that happy time was illustrated by the murder of Bishop Hannington?
  *MR. BRODRICK: My honourable Friend has asked me questions to which he obviously does not wish a reply. He must know by long experience, if he has watched the honourable Member for Northampton closely enough, that that honourable Member always supplies in one speech the answers to the statements he has made in another. The honourable Gentleman always finds out that what he has written has been more or less discredited by someone, and he never returns to the charge a second time. More especially is this the case with regard to Uganda. When the honourable Member for Northampton desires to treat a subject seriously he is always comic, and when he endeavours to treat a subject from a comic point of view it is really tragic. He is anxious that I should explain why it is that in six months I have not obtained information regarding the Mombasa fugitive slaves. I have already explained that there was some delay on account of Lord Curzon's illness, and I cannot go beyond that, because the details have not passed through my hands. The honourable Gentleman also made a point in regard to the expeditions of Colonel Macdonald and Colonel Martyr. Now, I stated the other night very clearly what the intentions of the Government are as to the administration of Uganda. I told the Committee that Lord Salisbury proposed to continue the administration of those districts over which we have established control, but that he did not intend, until the railway was further advanced, to extend our borders and attempt to establish administrative posts further than was necessary. The one exception was the expedition under Colonel Martyr. That expedition was meant to join hands with Lord Kitchener on the Nile. But in making that statement I could not give a pledge at the time that Colonel Martyr would do more than establish such posts as are necessary to maintain communications. At these posts such administration as is necessary will, of course, be carried out. Beyond that, it is not proposed to involve the House, in regard to the administration of Uganda, until the railway is completed and we can send up supplies. I

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  have been asked to give the items of the expenditure on Colonel Macdonald's expedition. The main items are: Rations, which are of an especial kind for Indian troops, £110,000; transport, £17,500; mules and saddles, £15,000; stores, £35,000; making altogether, £175,000. So far as I know no money was thrown away, or unnecessary expense incurred. We have done all that was asked us by the military authorities on the spot, and we have done all that was asked us by the military authorities at home. We believe that the time is coming when the Indian regiment can be dispensed with and be brought down to the coast. Lastly, in regard to the Soudanese, the honourable Gentleman has answered himself. There is no doubt that the original body of Soudanese enlisted were a good set of men; but they had been influenced brother men who came over the border, and who had already given trouble of which we were not aware. We have had the very highest accounts of the Soudanese troops and their present officers, and we shall avoid as far as possible in the future the constant changes of officers, which were formerly a source of trouble.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: What is the condition of the porters?
  *MR. BRODRICK: I do not know what their particular condition is at the present moment; but there is no difficulty in getting a supply of porters.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: In former expeditions up to Uganda porters were employed who were obtained from their owners, on the condition that the owners should receive certain sums of money for their services. I wish to know whether the porters employed on this expedition were of this class of slaves?
  *MR. BRODRICK: There have been various changes in regard to porters. Last year, with the enormous increase of the forces going up country, there was necessarily a great increase in the number of porters employed. There were considerable difficulties in connection with the demand for porters on account of the extension of the railway at the same moment. The question, however, was carefully considered on the spot; and ultimately the Protectorate authorities
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  succeeded in establishing a proper service.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I only ask a plain answer to my plain question. What was the status of these porters? Were they slaves or were they not?
  *MR. BRODRICK: I never heard any suggestion that they were slaves. I believe that some question arose in the early days as to whether some of the men who were employed as porters were supposed to have been forced. But, so far as I am aware, there was no question of slavery in regard to the Uganda porters. I believe, as a matter of fact, that a certain number of them had escaped from slavery; but they were taken on as free labourers.
  SIR R. REID: This point about slavery a very serious one. Some of us entirely objected to the propriety of our going to Uganda at all, and we pointed out that one of the methods formerly adopted there was that slaves which were publicly employed had been hired from their masters, and that masters let out slaves to different people. What we ask is whether or not the organised system of hiring slaves is going to be continued. The right honourable Gentleman does not appear to recollect that circumstance. Can he tell us now whether that is the system by which the railway is being built, and whether stores are being taken up country by the organised employment of slaves from their masters by the British Government? Can the right honourable Gentleman tell us whether that is the case or not? If he cannot tell us I think he will see that it is proper that he should obtain the information as soon as he can, so that the House may know that there is no direct encouragement or recognition of the employment by this country of slaves, us such, in the building of the railway. A second point I wish to make is this. There is a rather ominous observation made by the right honourable Gentleman in regard to the intention of the Government in extending the boundaries of British possessions in Uganda. I think that the right honourable Gentleman said twice that until the railway is completed there was no intention of extending the boundaries. Are we to under-

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  stand from that that there is any fixed intention of extending the boundaries in these territories at any time?
  *MR. BRODRICK: In regard to the last point, the question of extending the boundaries, it is not a question of extending the boundaries of the Protectorate, but of establishing posts at points where we may come into conflict with the natives. In that enormous territory you may have a few points at which our influence is not felt, and where trade would not consequently follow. But as time goes on we may make an extension of administrative posts. In regard to the first portion of the right honourable Gentleman's remarks, as far as I recollect it, from reading the Blue Book, the question which arose was that certain tribes should furnish a certain amount of labour on a general claim, for pay; which was interpreted here to mean a claim by the masters for the services so rendered by their tribesmen. That was long before my time. I cannot say from memory when that system was established, but if it ever existed it was put a stop to. I can assure the Committee that so far as I am aware the whole of the labour now employed, either on the railway or in porterage, in Uganda is free labour, for which the men themselves are paid wages at so much a head.
  *MR. MCKENNA: I wish to ask the right honourable Gentleman whether the men employed were hired from Zanzibar masters at Zanzibar; and whether Colonel Macdonald was recalled from his expedition to Juba, or whether he came back of his own motion. I rather gathered that he has been recalled, and if that be so, how much of the expenses in the Supplementary Estimates were in consequence of Colonel Macdonald's expedition.
  *MR. BRODRICK: I cannot go into details until the accounts come in. Colonel Macdonald was not recalled. He returned having carried out the trust committed to him. As to the Zanzibar masters, I gave an answer just now. There never was any case of a contract so far as I know in which the wages were paid to masters; but if there was,
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  it is not so now. The men are paid individually.
  CAPTAIN NORTON: Can the right honourable Gentleman state on whose recommendation an Indian regiment was sent to Uganda for this work? The right honourable Gentleman says that the cost of the rations was £110,000, but surely a very large proportion of that must have been for camels, and there must have been a very heavy loss of these camels. The amount of impedimenta must have been enormous. Is it not the custom to take Somali men and train them on the spot for this work, as they are far more effective than other native troops? On whose recommendation were these Indian troops sent, and what was the cost of the Indian regiment as compared with the cost of Somalis, had they been employed?
  MR. BAYLEY: I would like to ask the right honourable Gentleman whether the money we are voting to-day is for free labour or whether it is for slave labour? That is the real question, Are these men employed on the railway free men, or are they slaves? Will the right honourable Gentleman make inquiry if he does not know the facts?
  *MR. BRODRICK: I really must apologise to the Committee. It seems impossible for me to make myself understood or to convey my meaning to the honourable Member. I have answered this question twice, and I do not think I should convince the honourable Gentleman if I answered it again.
  *MR. WEIR: I do not rise to discuss this question of slavery, but only to ask what is the cost of the new steam launch provided for the lake.
  *MR. BRODRICK: I believe that the actual cost of the launch on delivery would be £10,000.
  MR. BRYN ROBERTS: I should like to know with whom the contracts of the men employed on the railway are made; whether they are made with the individual workmen, or whether they are made with some agent, who assures the Government that

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  he has some power over the workmen to make them work—in other words, whether there is a contract with each individual labourer or a general contract with an agent? In the second place, I would ask what are the terms of the contract? Is it a contract day by day, or for a fixed term; and if for a fixed term, for how long? I would ask, also, is there a payment made to anybody besides the individual workman?
  *MR. HEDDERWICK: I understand the staple article of food among Indian troops is rice. If so, are we to suppose that this Indian regiment consume £110,000 worth of rice, or does the term "rations" include other items than food?
  Original Question put and passed.

  CLASS II.
  2. £2,400, Supplementary, Colonial Office.
  Motion made and Question proposed—
  "That a supplementary sum not exceeding £2,400 be granted to Her Majesty to defray the charge which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st March 1899, for salaries and expenses of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies."
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I would like to ask whether I should be in order on this Vote, which includes £750 for salaries, wages, and allowances, in discussing the position of affairs in the Transvaal?
  THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: No, I think the honourable Member would not be in order.
  Question put and passed.

  CLASS V.
  3. Motion made, and Question pro posed—
  "That a supplementary sum not exceeding £139,425 be granted to Her Majesty to defray the charge which will come in the course of payment during the year ending 31st day of March 1899, for sundry Colonial services, including certain grants-in-aid."
  Motion made—
  "That the item B, £70,000 for the Gold Coast (grants in aid of Northern Territories) be omitted from the proposed Vote."—(Mr. Weir.)
  *MR. WEIR: The Motion I have put down is in respect of £70,000 for a grant in aid of the Northern Territories of the Gold Coast. The original estimate was £25,000, and a sudden jump up has been made to £95,000. On page 20 of the Estimates it is stated that the additional sum of £70,000 is required because the original Estimate was based on incomplete information supplied from the Colony. Now, I think we are entitled to know who is responsible for giving this inaccurate information to the Colonial Office. I also notice that in a second note under this item it is stated that so much of this expenditure as is found to be due to the cost of telegraph construction, which is believed to be from £25,000 to £30,000, is to be treated as a loan to be repaid by the Colony. I think we are entitled to know whether it is the intention to make the Colony pay interest on the balance of that amount, for in the last Report dealing with the Gold Coast Colony, dated 1896, it is stated that the Colony has no public debt. If we are to give money in this way to a Colony which has no public debt, without a return, I think it is most unfair to the taxpayers of this country. For what purpose is this money required? I find a reference in the Estimates that it is for the construction of roads. But surely that is a duty obligator} on the chiefs of the tribes. It appears to me that we are going to supply this £70,000 for the purpose of maintaining a number of idle native chiefs and their men. Why should they not do the work themselves, and why should a Colony without any public debt move the Colonial Office to ask this House to provide this sum of £70,000? I am not going to enter into the subject of the difficulty of getting money for the Highlands of Scotland, but I am satisfied that if the Secretary for Scotland had asked for £70,000 to do some good work, not for idle chiefs, but for an industrious people, he would have got very little encouragement from the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and yet the Colonial Secretary comes down here and boldly asks us for this £70,000.

  467
  I protest against this system of providing large stuns of money for a Colony which has no public debt. I beg to move the Motion which stands in my name. I hope, however, the right honourable Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies will give the Committee such information on the point as will afford me an opportunity of withdrawing my Motion.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: My honourable Friend has made some most pertinent remarks, and has asked for certain information, which is undoubtedly required before we can pass the Vote for this money. And I am surprised that the right honourable Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies does nothing but sit there on the Treasury Bench nodding his head and smiling. I would have thought that the right honourable Gentleman would have bounded up to answer the honourable Member for Ross and Cromarty. As it is, the honourable Member's statement appears to me to stand undisputed by the Colonial Secretary. Does the right honourable Gentleman imagine that he can get vast sums of money in Supplementary Estimates from the House without explanation? Perhaps the right honourable Gentleman will get up afterwards and give us a very clear and satisfactory account of this expenditure. The fact is, we are really spending far too much on these African ventures; and all this money is wasted and squandered in a desperate attempt to get a species of bastard Empire within the tropics of Africa. What I understand is, that this money is to be given to the Colony of the Gold Coast, which is actually in funds and has no public debt. If that be the case, the Colony itself ought to pay for its own public works. There is one reason why we should not give any money to the Gold Coast Colony, and that is the mode in which it gets its revenue. Last year the revenue amounted to £237,857, and of this amount it is stated that £162,847 was obtained from the duties on spirits, tobacco, and guns. We may deduct the duties on tobacco and guns, and presume that £150,000 was obtained from the duty on spirits. We are always boasting of our civilising mission in the world. The Colonial
  468
  Secretary told us lately that we have a mission from Heaven to civilise these tropical countries. And this is how we do it! In 1896 no fewer than 126,000 gallons of spirits were imported into the Cold Coast. In 1897 the amount was increased to 127,000 gallons of spirits, or an increase of 43,000 gallons. They were not even British spirits. I have no particular sympathy with the British distiller. Still, if we go into this poisonous business, we ought to give the benefit of it to the poisoners of this country instead of the poisoners of Germany. It is perfectly monstrous to levy the greatest part of the revenue of the Colony by sending vile spirits to its most unfortunate people, and to call that a mode of civilising them. We are told that we are now going to give freer access to the country, and are going to spend £70,000 in telegraphic communications. The telegraphs will be used, I suppose, to wire that the spirits have arrived, and their price. If the honourable Member for Ross and Cromarty goes to a Division, I will support him. But if the right honourable Gentleman the Colonial Secretary says that we don't want to extend our territory any further, and that we do not consider that we have a right to obtain the best part of our revenue from spirits, I shall be inclined to vote for him. But he tells us, practically, in these Estimates that we are going to increase the revenue from spirits, and therefore I think the House ought to go against the Vote as a protest against the money being spent in telegraphic communications with the Colony. There are many uses for the money in England, and it would be a boon if the poisonous spirits were excluded altogether from the Colony.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): The speech of the honourable Member for Northampton seems to me not to be relevant to the Vote, nor does it seem pertinent to the discussion of the number of the troops necessary to preserve order throughout the northern territories of the Gold Coast to raise the whole question of the consumption of spirits in West Africa. There is no intention of putting on the taxpayer of this country a single farthing of the expenditure for telegraphic communications in West Africa. It is only in con-

  469
  sequence of the forms of the Treasury that we have to put this temporary loan which we have asked for on the Estimates. Every penny of it will be repaid by the Colony. So far as the telegraphic expenditure is concerned, I am informed that it will amount to between £25,000 and £30,000, and not a penny of it will be placed as a charge either for principal or interest, on the taxpayers of this country. The honourable Member for Northampton having referred to the question of the consumption of spirits, might have, I think, recognised the fact that I have taken more trouble since I came into office than anyone else in order to deal with this matter, and to reduce, if possible, the consumption of spirits in these native States. It is always extremely difficult —I do not say it is absolutely impossible—for us to raise our duty upon spirits above the duties which foreign countries continue to levy. If we do so it is said, with some show of reason, that we should lose not only the trade in spirits, but other legitimate trade which goes with the trade in spirits. Therefore, our action in this matter has been determined really, to a large extent, by the action of other Powers. A Conference, however, has been called at Brussels to deal with the question, and the instructions to the British representative set forth that we are prepared to raise the duties to any level to which foreign countries are agreed to go, that we should prefer a high level of duty, and that there is no level of duty which is too high for us. I may say in regard to the special case of the Gold Coast that I have recently authorised an Ordinance by which the duty on spirits is to be raised 1s. per gallon. I have taken the step, unusual as I feel it to be, in spite of the fact that up to the present time the duties of the neighbouring countries have not been altered. Now, I come to the point, to the particular point raised by the honourable Member for Ross and Cromarty, who asked why it was there had been such a large increase in the Vote. I am afraid that owing to my indisposition I did not see the exact words of the Estimate which were put on the Paper. I admit the honourable Gentleman was justified in thinking that as these words stand they seem to imply some blame to the officials of the Gold Coast Territories. It is
  470
  quite true that the Estimates were incomplete, but the Colonial officials are not to blame. In the circumstances, it was perfectly impossible for them to make a better Estimate or to anticipate what has actually occurred. You must remember what the state of things was a year or two ago. It was this: Our neighbours, both French and German, were rapidly over-running our Hinterland both of the Gold Coast and Lagos. No preparation whatever had been made to meet that, and I think it is very much to be regretted, but not to be wondered at. We had no troops at our disposal, and the chance was that the whole of our territories would be rushed before we had any troops on the spot. The Government, however, did the best they could. We called for a West India regiment, and began to raise, as quickly as we could, a Native regiment. All this took time, but meanwhile the progress of the French expedition particularly was continuing. They were most active and energetic, and we soon found that more considerable operations on our part than we had originally contemplated would be necessary if we were to preserve these territories. And so we had to bring another regiment from the West Indies, and to incur great expense which was not anticipated at the time these Estimates were prepared. Let me point out why these operations are so expensive. The principal town which we occupy at the extreme end of the Yambada territory is about 500 miles from the coast. It takes 36 days to send an officer on leave down to the coast, and the cost of his journey with his necessary luggage and porters is £54. The carriage of goods the same distance costs £135 per ton. It is perfectly evident that as long as that continues the cost of a movable force in that country must be exceedingly great. That large expenditure put upon us is not due in any way to the policy of the Gold Coast Colony, but has been forced upon us for international reasons, and owing to the energetic action of our French and German neighbours. It seems to me, therefore, to be very unfair to put the whole of the cost on the Colony. The Colony undertook the payment of the whole cost of the Ashanti war, and a balance remains, it is true, but it is being rapidly paid off, and before long it will be wholly repaid. In the same way it is

  471
  my intention that the Colony shall take on its own shoulders and ultimately repay every expenditure intended for the development of these territories. The Committee may think I have been too sanguine in the past, but I am more confident than ever that these Colonies will turn out to be a most valuable possession, and I am acting in that belief. I am placing on the Colony a certain burden in the shape of debt with the fullest confidence that before very long it will be able to repay it. I base that confidence not on the consumption of spirits, but on the general increase of the general trade which is taking place, and which I anticipate will develop to an extraordinary degree as soon as we get railway communication. This railway service has already been commenced for a certain distance. I base my confidence still more upon prospects of the gold industry of the country, which I profess I do not wish to boom at this time, but which, from all the information I have obtained from many different quarters, is going to be a most solid, valuable, and profitable industry in the Gold Coast Colony. I think the House, therefore, need have no fear that this expenditure will recur for any lengthened period of years. And I am quite convinced that it will be recouped, directly or indirectly, before very long. I will just say in passing that my hopes of the trade of the Gold Coast Colony, independent of the gold industry, are greatly confirmed by the improvement which is taking place in the trade of the other West African Colonies. In Sierra Leone, for instance, and Lagos. The improvement is very remarkable in the case of Lagos, where the British imports amount to nearly a million sterling. That is a very considerable increase, and there is every probability that that increase will be continued. I hope I have now explained satisfactorily the difficulty caused by the irregularity in the Estimate, and how that irregularity occurred; and I trust that the honourable Member for Ross and Cromarty will withdraw his Amendment.
  MR. BUXTON: I viewed this enormous expenditure with some alarm. It is a very large expenditure for such a small Colony. But I am bound to say,
  472
  after having heard what the right honourable Gentleman has said in support of the proposal he has made to this Committee, that this particular Vote is. not an unreasonable one. I understand the right honourable Gentleman practically admits that the bulk of this expenditure was due to the international difficulties which, unfortunately, we had got into with the French nation as to the boundaries of the northern territories of Gold Coast Colony. If we were to maintain our position at all in connection with the Gold Coast and Lagos, if we were not to allow ourselves to be squeezed out of the Hinterland of these Colonies, it was essential that the Imperial Government and the Colonial Government should take action in the matter. No doubt, £100,000 seems to be a considerable amount, but as the right honourable Gentleman has explained, many of the troops and the officers had to be sent up country, and the cost of their transport was very heavy, and could scarcely have been conducted on a more economic basis. I understand from what the right honourable Gentleman has said that a considerable amount of the expenditure will ultimately be borne by the Colony itself. I do not think, therefore, that under these circumstances this particular Vote is an unreasonable one. I was glad to hear what the right honourable Gentleman said in regard to the future of the Gold Coast, Lagos, and of the Niger Territory. We have not had the opportunity of judging completely the possibilities as regards these three Colonies until now; but I consider that there is a considerable future before them, more esepcially the Gold Coast, when the railway shall have been completed. There is little doubt that that Colony will be able, not only to pay its way in the future as it has done in the past, but that it will form a very valuable asset of the British Empire. The right honourable Gentleman has made it clear that in regard to the Gold Coast there is no intention of developing that Colony at the expense of the British taxpayer. In regard to the question of railways, telegraphs, and other items, these will be of great advantage to the trade of the Colony and of the mother country, and the whole expense of them will be borne ultimately by the Colony itself. This particular item appears to me to

  473
  be one on a totally different basis from the other Votes we discussed this evening. It is founded on a policy which has largely actuated our relations with our Colonies, namely, that they should be as far as possible self-supporting. Under the circumstances explained by the right honourable Gentleman, I shall support this Vote. I should like to say, if the right honourable Gentleman will allow me to do so, that I cordially congratulate him upon the steps he has taken in regard to the question of the spirit duties on the West Coast of Africa. It has been recognised that the right honourable Gentleman has done a great deal by his action there, and by endeavouring to call together the Conference at Brussels, to diminish the evils of the drink traffic referred to. I shall be glad of any information as to the likelihood of the dale being fixed for the Brussels Conference. If active steps are being taken to bring about that Conference, it will give the greatest satisfaction to all of us.
  *SIR C. DILKE: So far as the charge is explained by the necessity of sending for another West Indian regiment, the right honourable Gentleman will have my support, but I wish to say a word or two on the subject of a separate Colonial army if it is relevant to the present Vote.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: I think my right honourable Friend will find it more convenient to discuss the question referred to in connection with the more important Vote which will appear on the general Estimates of the year. In answer to the honourable Gentleman opposite, I may be allowed to say that the Vote for a Native force is not entirely a new Vote, but rather takes the place of a different expenditure. Hitherto, what has happened is this. Wherever there has been a disturbance, whether it was at Sierra Leone, or the Gold Coast, or at Lagos, we have had to make a demand at once on the West India Regiment. Now the West India Regiment is an extremely admirable fighting force; at the same time, it is an extremely expensive force. Although they are men of colour, the climate does not seem to agree with them very well, and they require attendance in the
  474
  shape of porters, transport, stores, and so forth, which make them very much more expensive than the Native regiments would be which we propose to substitute for them. Of course, as soon as the Native regiments are finally established, I hope we shall never again see a West Indian regiment in a West African colony. Of course, that will probably lead to a reduction in the cost of the West India Regiment, and this saving will compensate for any increase in the Colonial Vote.
  *SIR C. DILKE: The right honourable Gentleman has alluded to the West African Regiment apart from the West African frontier force. I think it would be desirable to give the House some information in the form of a Return—I do not say to-day—as to the new departure which has been taken in this matter Everyone will agree that there must be a force of armed police under the Colonial Office; but a regimental force which goes through regimental drill ought to be under the control of the War Office, so as to ensure unity of command. It will, no doubt, be very difficult to draw an exact line between a Native military police force and the force it would be necessary to employ regimen-tally in time of war. Hitherto, there has been great clashing of the various authorities, the troops under the War Office and the troops under the Colonial Office and Foreign Office being employed together. The Under Secretary for War told us the other day that 21,000 Foreign Office and Colonial Office troops are now being employed in Africa at a cost of a million a year, and as the expenditure is becoming larger and larger, the matter is one as to which we ought to have full information. I will not press the point further, but would ask the right honourable Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies to take some steps to keep us fully informed in the matter.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: I can give the information at once. We intend to have two battalions of the West African frontier force, amounting together to 2,600 men. It is further intended to have one battalion of something under 1,000 men for the Gold Coast. Their permanent headquarters will be on the Gold Coast,

  475
  and on the Niger, respectively, but, if necessary, I hope it will be quite possible to make these forces interchangeable, so that they may be used for a common purpose.
  *SIR C. DILKE: That does not exceed what we were told last year. What we were beginning to get alarmed at was the very large sum mentioned by the Under Secretary of State for War, namely, one million a year.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOB THE COLONIES: As this Colonial force gets into working order, which it is doing very rapidly indeed, I hope the constabulary or police will become more and more a civil force. We shall then reduce its numbers, and use it simply as a police force for the preservation of order.
  MR. BUXTON: Will the right honourable Gentleman say whether the Colony will contribute something to the expense of the new force?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: I am ready to give every information. By way of illustration, I will take the case of Lagos. We have in the Hinterland there the new West African frontier force, 2,600 strong That force, we hope, will be quite sufficient for preserving order for preventing slave raiding, for stopping war between the tribes—all operations of a military character which, up to this time, have always been more or less undertaken by the constabulary. If in future those duties are undertaken by the West African force, the constabulary will not be required for the purpose, and we shall then reduce their numbers, and, as I say, make them more of a civil character. I see no reason why the same thing should not take place on the Cold Coast. For some years to come, it is clear that a considerable proportion, if not the whole, of this cost must be laid on Imperial revenue, because it is the result, I will not say of the Imperial policy, but of Imperial Government. I do not call it Imperial policy, because it was not our policy. Our policy was to allow these Hinterlands a much slower development. We have been forced into the position of taking up that policy, and having taken it up, we have.
  476
  of course, to carry it on. But if we had had our way—if our hands had not been forced by other Powers—there is no doubt it would have been a considerable time before it would have been necessary to take up the development of the Hinterland; but it is my conviction—I do not pledge myself as to the exact period—that before very long, not only the whole of the Gold Coast force, but the whole of the West African frontier force will be paid for by the West African Colony ut of local resources.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: The right honourable Gentleman has expressed the opinion that the loan is likely to be repaid. I venture to say that there is no evidence before us of any such financial probability. The right honourable Gentleman suggests that gold may be found in the country, and that this may produce a great deal of money. Well, I imagine the climate there is so extremely bad that, even if the gold were found, it would be very doubtful whether, as it could not be carried into another world, it would benefit anybody. There is no evidence of any kind, apart from the sanguine mind of the right honourable Gentleman, to warrant any confidence that this loan is likely to be repaid, or even the interest upon it met-We have already had considerable experience of the granting of loans to the West Indies. We are perpetually asked to give doles and grants and loans to the Indians, and we know perfectly well what a curse our Colonial possessions often are in this matter. The right honourable Gentleman has drawn a glowing picture of the future of these Colonies. For my part, I prefer to rely upon facts, and take existing facts as they stand. I am perfectly certain that if. the loan had to be advanced on the guarantee of the Colony alone, you would not find any business man ready to make if. Theright honourable Gentleman quoted Lagos, and said that all these gold Colonies are likely to increase in value. I hold in my hand the last Report with which we are favoured, the annual Report for 1897. And what do I find? Not only have the exports fallen off, but the imports have fallen off during the year to the amount of £131.000. Surely, in the face of these figures, it cannot be said that Lagos is thriving and extending—it has fallen back. Then the right honourable Gentleman said that he pro-

  477
  posed to deal with the liquor question by raising the duty upon imported spirits. This will not reduce the amount of liquor consumed. The natives may, perhaps, do a little more work to get their liquor, but liquor they will have so long as you are prepared to provide it. It seems to me that it would be infinitely more reasonable to propose at the Brussels Conference that no liquor should be imported into any of these African Colonies.
  THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, order! I do not think the honourable Member is justified in discussing the liquor question at this stage.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: It appears that a portion of this money is to be expended on the army which is to be raised in these Colonies. I believe it to be a doubtful policy to embody an army of negroes in order to employ them against other savages. Lord Chatham, in referring to our use of Red Indians in America, described them as "the hell hounds of savage war," and I am certainly inclined to agree with the description in this case because these black troops cannot be kept under control. In the event of any difficulties occurring, the force will have to be strengthened by the use of British troops. You cannot absolutely depend upon these men, because at any time they may turn against you. The right honourable Gentleman tells us that he hopes the
  time will come when the Colony will pay for the troops itself. It is not likely that such a time will ever come. The right honourable Gentleman proposes, in addition to the huge increase in the Army and Navy, to augment the burden on the British taxpayer by increasing the Colonial army by 2,600 men, in order to extend our territories in the interior of Africa. Now, Sir, I am opposed to the extension of territory in the interior of Africa. I think the less we have to do with the interior of Africa the better, and I should be exceedingly glad to see any other nation snap up what remains of the interior of Africa, and so fortify and defend it that we should be prevented from going further in acquiring possession in the interior of that God-forsaken country Under these circumstances, I should certainly divide the House upon the Vote.
  *MR. WEIR: I object most strongly to the granting of the proposed sum to the Colony, on the ground that the taxpayers of this country are bound to lose by it, and that we ought not to make gifts of money to people who do nothing to help themselves.
  Question put—
  "That Item B. £70,000, for the Gold Coast (Grant in Aid of Northern Territories), be omitted from the proposed Vote."—(Mr. Weir.)
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 49; Noes, 226.—(Division List No. 38.)

  AYES

  Abraham, Wm. (Cork, N.E.)

  Fenwick, Charles

  Price, Robert John

  Allen, W. (Newe.-under-Lyme)

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Randell, David

  Allison, Robert Andrew

  Kilbride, Denis

  Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

  Ambrose, Robert (Mayo, W.)

  Lambert, George

  Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

  Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

  Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumbrlnd.)

  Souttar, Robinson

  Bainbridge, Emerson

  Leng, Sir John

  Stanhope, Hon. Philip J

  Burns, John

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Caldwell, James

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Tanner, Charles Kearns

  Cameron, Sir Charles (Glasgow)

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Wedderburn, Sir William

  Cameron, Robert (Durham)

  M ' Ghee, Richard

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Channing, Francis Allston

  M'Kenna, Reginald

  Williams, John Carvell (Notts.)

  Clark, Dr. G. B. (Caithness-sh.)

  Maddison, Fred.

  Wilson, Henry J. (York, W.R.)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Mendl, Sigismund Ferdinand

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Crilly, Daniel

  Moore, Arthur (Londonderry)

  Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal)

  O'Brien, James F. X. (Cork)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—

  Dillon, John

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Mr. Weir and Mr.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  O' Kelly, James

  Labouchere.

  Duckworth, James

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Lowles, John

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

  Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

  Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Allsopp, Hon. George

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph Douglas

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Archdale, Edward Mervyn

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Ascroft, Robert

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Macdona, John Cumming

  Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J.(Man.)

  Maclure, Sir John William

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Finch, George H.

  M'Arthur, Charles (Liverpool)

  Bailey, James (Walworth)

  Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

  M'Arthur, Wiliam (Cornwall)

  Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness)

  Firbank, Joseph Thomas

  M'Calmont, H. L. B. (Cambs.)

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manc'r)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  M'Ewan, William

  Balfour, Rt Hn Gerald W.(Leeds)

  Fison, Frederick William

  M'Hugh, E. (Armagh, S.)

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  M'Killop, James

  Barry, Rt Hn A. H. Smith-(Hunts)

  Fitz Wygram, General Sir F.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Barry, Sir Francis T. (Windsor)

  Flannery, Sir Fortescue

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Flower, Ernest

  Marks, Henry Hananel

  Barton, Dunbar Plunket

  Folkestone, Viscount

  Middlemore, John Throgmorton

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

  Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

  Milner, Sir Frederick George

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H.(Bristol)

  Fry, Lewis

  Monk, Charles James

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Garfit, William

  Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

  Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

  Gibbs, Hn A. G. H.(Cty. of Lond.

  Moore, William (Antrim, N.)

  Bethell, Commander

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  More, Robt Jasper (Shropsh.)

  Bhownaggree, Sir M. M.

  Gilliat, John Saunders

  Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

  Bill, Charles

  Goldsworthy, Major-General

  Morgan, W. Pritchard (Merthyr)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldor

  Morton, Arthur H. A. (Deptf 'd)

  Bowles, T. Gibson (King's Lynn)

  Goschen, Rt Hn G.J.(St. G'rge's)

  Moulton, John Fletcher

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

  Mount, William George

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Murray, Rt Hn A. Graham (Bute)

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Murray, Col. Wyndham (Bath)

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Green, Walford D. (Wednesbury

  Myers, William Henry

  Burt, Thomas

  Greville, Hon. Ronald

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Haldane, Richard Burdon

  Northcote, Hn. Sir H. Stafford

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Hamilton, Rt. Hn. Lord Georg

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, East)

  Hanbury, Rt. Hn. Robert Wm.

  Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Hare, Thomas Leigh

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Harwood, George

  Perks, Robert William

  Chamberlain, J. Austen (Wor.)

  Hayne, Rt. Hn. Charles Seale-

  Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Heath, James

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Clough, Walter Owen

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Plunkett, Rt. Hn. Horace Curzon

  Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

  Hedderwick, Thos. Chas. H

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharpe

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Helder, Augustus

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Cohen, Benamin Louis

  Hill, Sir Edwd. Stock (Bristol)

  Purvis, Robert

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Holland, Wm. H. (York. W.R.

  Reid, Sir Robert Threshie

  Colville, John

  Howard, Joseph

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Compton, Lord Alwyne

  Howell, William Tudor

  Ritchie, Rt. Hn. Chas. Thomson

  Corbett, A. Cameron (Glasgow)

  Hozier, Hn. James Henry Cecil

  Robertson, Herbert (Hackney)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Rothschild, Hon. Lionel Walter

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Jessel, Capt. Herbert Merton

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Crombie, John William

  Johnston William (Belfast)

  Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Johnstone, Heywood (Sussex)

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Jones, David Brynmor (S'nsea)

  Ryder, John Herbert Dudley

  Cubitt, Hon. Henry

  Kemp, George

  Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

  Currie, Sir Donald

  Kenyon, James

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Curzon, Viscount

  Kimber, Henry

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Kinloch, Sir John Geo. Smyth

  Sidebottom, William (Derbysh.)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Knowles, Lees

  Simeon, Sir Barrington

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Lafone, Alfred

  Sinclair, Capt. J. (Forfarshire)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Spencer, Ernest

  Denny, Colonel

  Lawrence, Sir E. Durning-(Corn)

  Spicer, Albert

  Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

  Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Hn. Arthur (Ormskirk)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

  Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry)

  Stanley, Edward Jas.(Somerset)

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

  Stanley, Henry M. (Lambeth)

  Doughty, George

  Leighton, Stanley

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Long, Rt. Hon. Walter (L'pool)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Doxford, William Theodore

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Drucker, A.

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

  480

  481

  Talbot, Rt Hn G.J.(Oxf'd Univ.)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Wyyill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Tennant, Harold John

  Warner, Thomas Courtney T.

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  Thorburn, Walter

  Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Thornton; Percy M.

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Williams, Jos. Powell-(Birm.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—

  Valentia, Viscount

  Wodehouse, Rt. Hn. E. R, (Bath)

  Sir William Walrond and

  Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)

  Wortley, Rt. Hn. C. B. Stuart-

  Mr. Anstruther.

  Wallace, Robert (Perth)

  Wyndham, George

  Walton, John Lawson (Leeds, S.)

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  MR. BUXTON: I wish to ask the right honourable Gentleman a question respecting the Report of the Commission for Sierra Leone. I should like to know when he expects to have that Report, or whether he has already received it, and, if so, when he will have it printed and placed in our hands? I do not propose at the present moment to go into the question of the Hut Tax, or of the rising which took place in Sierra Leone, or rather the causes which created that rising, because that is a matter which has been referred to the Commissioner, and we cannot deal with it until we have his Report before us. But I want to ask the right honourable Gentleman a question as to what recently occurred. When we last discussed this question—it was in the course of the Debate my honourable Friend the Member for Mayo raised on the question of Adjournment—we understood from the right honourable Gentleman in the first place, that the operations which had taken place had been suspended, that, in the second place, a Royal Commission would be appointed to inquire into the matter, and in the third place, that with regard to the Hut Tax, he would maintain an open mind for the time. Not so very long after, we saw in the newspapers that there had been further operations in the same directions and in regard to the same matter, against the chief called Bey Burai, which seem to have been successful in his capture. What I want to ask the right honourable Gentleman is: What caused this suddenly renewed activity in military operations, when we understood that the question of further military operations was to stand over until after the Report of the Royal Commission had been received, and the right honourable Gentleman was in a position to judge whether or not he intended to retain the Hut Tax, which was the alleged cause—I do not say it was the real cause—of the troubles?
  THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, order! I do not think it would be in order to discuss those questions in connection with this Vote. All that can be discussed is the policy of the inquiry.
  MR. BUXTON: Well, Mr. Ellis, I will ask the right honourable Gentleman this question when we get to the general Colonial Vote, because as regards the Commission itself and the cost of it, I have no objection to it, because we were all very glad that the right honourable Gentleman was sending out such an admirable Commission to make inquiries into this matter.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOB THE COLONIES: I think the honourable Gentleman cannot have seen my replies to Questions on the same subject. My first reply was to the effect that I had now received the official Report. It will be printed and distributed very shortly.
  *SIR C. DILKE: I wish to ask the right honourable Gentleman a question as to the Newfoundland shore. I wish to know whether, pending the reception of the Commissioner's Report, the instructions which have been sent in previous years to Naval officers in regard to what should be done pending the settlement of this shore question have been sent as usual before the fishery, which begins in May. The right honourable Gentleman knows the extremely difficult question that has arisen. The right honourable Gentleman has admitted, year after year, that the action of the Naval officers is beyond all law in fixing the price of bait on the shore—fixing a different price for purchasers according to their nationality. I want to know whether the ordinary instructions—
  THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order! I do not think that question arises on this Vote.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I also wish to ask a question of the right honourable Gentleman with reference to the Newfoundland shore, and the Royal Commission which has been sent out. I shall not refer to the actual state of facts in Newfoundland, and the action of the Naval officers there, which the right honourable Baronet has already referred to. No doubt the Newfoundlanders are difficult to handle. What I wish to say is this: The right honourable Gentleman, of course, in negotiating with France with regard to this question is obliged to act through the Foreign Office, and, therefore, he cannot himself, no doubt, give me a direct reply as to the present state of the negotiations with France. Well, am assured that in the months of December and January last the French Government were thoroughly prepared to entertain any reasonable proposals in this matter. I hope to get from the right honourable Gentleman an assurance that that opportunity was taken advantage of by the Foreign Office, and that negotiations were then opened and are now proceeding. If that be so, I am perfectly certain that a proper settlement may be looked for. If it be not so, then I am afraid that neither this Commission nor anything else will enable us to win the ground that has been lost.
  LORD E. FITZMAURICE: I wish to ask the right honourable Gentleman if the terms of reference to this Royal Commission have already been communicated to the House—I think not—and if not, whether they will shortly be communicated, because naturally it is a matter of very great interest to the Committee and the House to know precisely what it is that this Royal Commission is inquiring into, and what it is going to report upon. I always myself regretted that certain very important documents dating from the last century, bearing upon this question, had not been put before the House: and, possibly, if this Royal Commission is inquiring into the whole matter it will be a good opportunity of so doing. It is quite true that Lord Salisbury's very full dispatch —a very important, and, if I may say so, in its way a most complete dispatch —is to be found in the Blue Book of, I think, five years ago. It summarises all
  484
  these very interesting and important documents; but as this is really a matter depending upon the interpretation of documents of the year 1783, I always thought these discussions both in Parliament and outside Parliament have been conducted at considerable disadvantage, owing to the public not being in possession of the actual facts. When I was at the Foreign Office I took a very active part in the examination of these papers, and I have always contended, both in this House and elsewhere, in answer to the point that the French raise upon this question, that the more the documents are examined the stronger will be our case. Now, if this Royal Commission is going to be the means of communicating to the House and the public at large this information, all I can say is that I think Her Majesty's Government will have earned the gratitude of this House and of the country. But at this moment we really do not know what this Royal Commission has been doing, or what it was proposed to do. I do not want to trespass upon your ruling, Sir, in any way. If the right honourable Gentleman can give us any information, or can communicate what the terms of reference to the Royal Commission are, I think the Committee will be glad to have it.
  MR. BUXTON: Do I understand, Sir, that in regard to the new item of payment of this Royal Commission which is to inquire into a specific matter, we are not entitled to discuss the policy of the appointment of that Commission? We cannot, of course, discuss that without discussing the situation which led to the appointment of that Commission. Do I understand that we are excluded from discussing anything in regard to the position of Newfoundland arising on this item?
  *SIR C. DILKE: On the same point of order, Sir, I wish to make clear the matter as to which I was asking information from the right honourable Gentleman. The Commission is to "inquire into the state of matters on the Treaty Shore." Now, Sir, a very dangerous state of things on the Treaty Shore has been caused by the action of the naval officers there, under orders communicated by the Admiralty, and of which the Colonial Office arc aware. We do not know what the Commission has been doing, but we imagine that it has been

  485
  inquiring all along the Treaty Shore into these grievances of the population in regard to the action of the Naval officers ordered from here, and I should imagine that we should be in order in asking a Question upon that.
  THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: As to the causes which may have led to the appointment of the Commission, I think it would be open to make inquiries, but as to the present state of the negotiations with France in regard to this matter, or as to the policy of this country in attempting to settle the matter, I do not think it can be raised. The policy of the appointment of the Commission, of course, is open to discussion.
  SIR C. DILKE: The questions I was desirous of putting were exactly within the limits of your ruling, Sir. The evidence that has been taken upon and along the Treaty Shore has been as to the relations between the naval officers and the population caused by the French rights. That question is one which has been pressed year after year upon the attention of the Colonial Secretary in this House. In May each year, when the fishing begins, certain regulations are made affecting the sale of bait, and a different rate of price is fixed for the French fishermen and fishermen of other nationalities, for which the Colonial Secretary has stated there is no legal authority. Sir, those regulations are probably being issued now for the present year. I want to know whether the action of the Commission, and of the Government in appointing the Commission which is to consider this matter, has led to any difference in the instructions given to the naval officers upon this point.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: In reply to the right honourable Baronet, I must say that I do not agree with his views as to the character and effect of the regulations on the French shore. I do not agree at all that they are in any way the cause of the troubles on that shore. I think it will be shown that they are perfectly satisfactory, and, on the whole, working extremely well. In answer to the question whether there is any alteration now proposed in the regulations, I have to
  486
  say that no alteration is proposed in consequence of the appointment of the Commission. We are waiting for the Report of the Commission, and when we get that Report, and are able to found our conclusions upon it, we shall consider what other regulations it may be advisable to make, and issue them in the usual way. The Commission has practically completed its work, the Report is in type, and it will be in the hands of Members very shortly. Of course, if the noble Lord opposite is unwilling to wait for that, and desires to see the terms of reference beforehand, I shall be glad to assist him, but I imagine that he will be satisfied, as the Report certainly will not be long delayed.
  DR. CLARKdrew attention to a Vote for the Dreadnought Hospital, in connection with a new school which it was proposed to found for the study of tropical diseases. He did not desire to oppose the Vote, but he thought the Committee would be glad if the right honourable Gentleman would give them some information upon it.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: I attach the very greatest importance to this Vote, and I am glad the honourable Member does not propose to oppose it. Of course, it is well known that all these Colonies, and especially the West African Colonies, are subject to peculiar diseases of a most distressing and often very dangerous character. I do not know anything which has given more pain and anxiety to me in connection with my tenure at the Colonial Office than the constant reports of deaths of very promising officers in consequence of these diseases. I have endeavoured to see what can be done to make this state of things better, I am not at all hopeless about it, because it is very interesting to observe that the same sort of thing was said of other Colonies which now are, at all events, very fairly healthy. For instance, exactly the same tiling happened at the time of our first occupation of Calcutta, and the description given of Calcutta in the early days might be almost word for word the description which I should be inclined to give now to some of the worst of our West African stations. In the same way

  487
  Hong Kong was called "The White Man's Grave," and Lord Grey, I think, expressed regret that it had ever been taken over, although he felt that under the circumstances, as we had occupied it so long, it was impossible to give it up. In fact, the view taken in these discussions about Colonies like Calcutta and Hong Kong was very much the same view that the honourable Member for Northampton now takes, from very inaccurate information, in regard to the West African Colonies. I hope, in fact, to do for our West African Colonies very much the same as has been done for Calcutta and Hong Kong. Without being able to say that we are going to make a sanitorium of places of this kind, we at least hope we may reduce the unnecessary mortality which I believe goes on in consequence of preventable causes. Now these preventable causes are numerous, and all of them have had the most careful attention. One cause is insufficient and improper nursing, and the remedy, I am happy to say, now being undertaken by a private association called the Colonial Nursing Association, which is sending out to all these Colonies trained European nurses to attend cases which require their attention. Then a second difficulty has been the difficulty of finding doctors who were acquainted beforehand with these peculiar diseases; the diseases themselves are very peculiar, and it has been almost impossible to give clinical instruction to doctors who were going out to the Coast in these particular diseases. It has been suggested to me by the very able and well-known medical gentleman who is the Colonial Office adviser in all these cases, Dr. Manson, that we should establish a graduates' class, and that just in the same way as we have a School of Musketry at Hythe, to which military men are sent for a month's or a couple of months' training before they go to these foreign stations, so we should have a school of tropical medicine somewhere established in this country, to which all the doctors who are sent out to these tropical countries could go for two months' tuition before leaving, and in which they could receive clinical and practical instruction in the cure of these particular diseases. Dr. Manson considers that the Dreadnought Hospital is the best place for dealing with these matters, because so many sailors go there who come home from the Colonies suf-
  488
  fering from these diseases, and there are more opportunities for efficient study provided there than at any other hospital. We have considered very carefully the alternative advantages of Netley and Haslar, and we think it would be very much better to take advantage of the opportunities afforded by the Dreadnought Hospital, and accordingly arrangements have been made for erecting the necessary buildings for the accommodation of the doctors who will go through this probationary course, and we hope also in a short time to give accommodation for nurses, who equally require a similar training. That will cost a considerable sum annually, and a considerable sum for the first expenditure. That sum will be provided, partly by private subscription in this country, partly by contributions from the. Colonies, and partly by this small grant—for it is really a small grant—which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been good enough to give me for the purpose. I would like to say that up to the time we made this proposal, I do not think it had been made by anybody else, but the moment it was made there was some disturbance in the minds of the medical officers connected with different institutions, who all thought that their institutions ought to have been selected, or might have been selected, instead of the one actually selected. But I believe that we have satisfied these gentlemen, so far, at all events, as we have seen their complaints, by assuring them that in such cases, for instance, as King's Hospital or the Liverpool School, or other places at which special training in tropical diseases is given, we will give a preference in the selection of officers for these Colonies; but we do not intend to give up the further security that after the gentlemen have been selected they shall undergo this probationary course of two months at Dreadnought Hospital before they leave. I hope this proposal will satisfy the House.
  MR. BUXTON: I am glad the honourable Member for Caithness does not object in any way to this Vote. I am bound to say, as far as I am concerned, I think it is the best item of the whole of the Supplementary Estimate we are dealing with this afternoon. The right honourable Gentleman based his arguments on the ground of humanity and mortality, and I think every Member of

  489
  the Committee entirely agrees with the right honourable Gentleman. But I want to place it also on the ground of efficiency and economy, because one of the greatest difficulties which exist in the way of our administration of our tropical Colonies is, that our officers, unfortunately, are compelled to spend a very large proportion of their time at home on leave, and home on leave in a very large number of cases because of some small illness they have contracted abroad, but for which they have been unable to be treated in the Colony. They have to come home, and they get out of touch with their Colony, and in a very large number of cases I believe their absence from their post might be prevented. I only hope that the right honourable Gentleman will be able to receive the assistance from voluntary sources which he has alluded to, and also the valued assistance of the different institutions of the medical profession to which he has alluded.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: The right honourable Gentleman has said something about my inaccuracy. I do not quite know how the right honourable Gentleman has managed to drag me in. I can only hope that he will not himself—
  THE SECRETARY OP STATE FOR THE COLONIES: The honourable Gentleman said that he did not believe that my views about the future prosperity of the Gold Coast were correct, because everybody who went out there died.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I only spoke in general terms. I can assure the right honourable Gentleman that a great many do die. I can only say that I hope that the right honourable Gentleman will not carry his views as to the salubrity of this charming region so far as to go there himself, because the right honourable Gentleman, if he came back, would not come back so healthy as when he went. I am going to read an extract—it is not a question of my inaccuracy or accuracy—as to the climates of these places, to show that all endeavours have already been made that are possible by doctors, and without success. This is from the Report of the Niger Coast Protectorate—
  490
  "The total number of cases treated was 1078"—
  which means that every European was treated by the doctor about six times a year.
  "The deaths amounted to 15, a death rate of 72 per 1,000 of the population. Fifty-eight Europeans were invalided, this being a percentage of 281 per 1,000. Although every effort was made throughout the Protectorate by medical authorities during the year in the direction of sanitation generally, and by using every means which experience teaches are necessary for preserving the lives of Europeans in a climate like this, the above figures are not at all encouraging. The acting principal medical officer in his report calls special attention to the unhealthiness of Suppel."
  Now, there is no Colonial station in the district better situated than is this place. It is situated on high ground, 50 miles from the river, the water being clear and fresh. The death rate for the year amounted to 226 per 1000, and the number of cases of men invalided amounted to the extraordinary proportion of 1509 to the 1000 European inhabitants. In this station, with a population of 13 white inhabitants, no fewer than 133 cases were treated, showing that each European had been in the doctor's hands 10 times a year.
  "The acting principal medical officer remarks that the unhealthiness of Suppel demonstrates the fact that the most swampy regions are not always the most fever -stricken.
  Then this acting principal medical officer goes on to suggest—
  "Whereas young men are now sent out for three years, they had better in future be only sent out for eighteen months, because no young man can possibly stand the climate without his constitution being thoroughly destroyed, if he remains there more than eighteen months."
  I hope the right honourable Gentleman will find that his views as to improving the sanitary conditions of the tropical Colonies will work out right, but I confess, looking at the facts as they are, that I very much doubt whether his hopes will be justified by the event.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: I should like to add one word of congratulation to the right honourable Gentleman upon this new departure he has made in starting a school of tropical medicine. I am not

  491
  so hopeless as is the honourable Member for Northampton about the possibility of, if not stamping out altogether, at all events diminishing, these diseases which are so little understood now by the ordinary doctor, and for the study of which so very insufficient arrangements are now made in our general hospitals. I think the arrangement with regard to the Dreadnought Hospital for study there of these tropical diseases by men who are going out to tropical countries can only lead to good results, and I congratulate the right honourable Gentleman on having had the opportunity of calling to his counsel such a very able medical man as Dr. Manson, whose connection with the study of these diseases is well known. I hope this new departure will be the means of saving life, and be the means of carrying out the views of my honourable Friend, which lead him to believe that these tropical countries may be made to be much better adapted to Europeans than they are now. The only means by which it is to be done is to instruct young medical men as to the incidence of these particular diseases, so that they may be, so to speak, immune from these tropical diseases. I am sure the right honourable Gentleman has done a good thing for medical men and has done a good thing for medicine as well. Might I ask the right honourable Gentleman if this Vote is to be an annual one?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: I forgot to say that among other things which we are doing in the same direction is inquiring into the cause and cure of malaria. I have been in communication with the Royal Society, and the Royal Society has made a grant, which the Government propose to supplement. A Commission has been appointed by the Royal Society to examine into the question of the cause and cure of malaria. That Commission will visit Egypt in order to study the experiments that are being made there, and it will then go to India. They will afterwards in all probability go to Nyassaland, where they will have a permanent station, to make examinations on that
  492
  spot, and they will finally wind up in West Africa.
  GENERAL, RUSSELL: As one of the few honourable Members who have experience of the Gold Coast, I desire to modify the statements of the honourable Gentleman the Member for Northampton. I am alive myself, and I must congratulate the right honourable Gentleman the Colonial Secretary on this new departure. After my return from East India I suffered greatly from West African fever, or malaria, and, although I found the medical officers over there were acquainted with malaria, scarcely a doctor in London knew anything about it. I had a very great deal of difficulty in finding any medical officer in this country with any knowledge of the subject. Only those military doctors who had been out in the country knew. I may say I consulted the most celebrated physicians in London, and I might also say that a fellow-officer of mine has had a similar experience. I think the step that has been taken by the right honourable Gentleman is an admirable one, and I am only surprised that it has never been adopted before this. I hope the House will join me in congratulating the right honourable Gentleman.
  DR. CLARK: I have got all the information that I was desirous of obtaining, but, before the Vote is given, I think a Paper should be circulated, giving us all the information required. You cannot get the special material you want at the Colonial Office, because all you get there are the chronic cases, the serious cases are duplicated; and in ordinary schools, under ordinary circumstances, they ought to pay attention to the special class. It is also very desirable that civil surgeons should go out and should have special facilities, as the military surgeons have. The only doubt in my mind is whether you ought not to have it altogether—whether it, would not be worth while to pay a definite sum to inquire into it? This is a very small sum, and the experiment can be tried, and then by-and-bye we can have a permanent Estimate. But before it comes before us permanently we must have all the information. This question affects the Army, Navy, and Civil

  493
  Service, and I think that we ought to have a proper method of inquiring into it. I am afraid that the money will be frittered away by there being two or three men doing the same thing. However, I congratulate the right honourable Gentleman upon this departure.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Let me suggest that some of these Gentlemen may be sent to Jamaica, which is so little visited, but which is so beautifully situated for this purpose. Jamaica is the very hotbed of yellow fever, and I think that medical science would obtain more knowledge there than elsewhere. The support that the honourable Gentleman the Member for Northampton has given to this Vote is most remarkable, and there can be no greater reason than that suggested by him for introducing such institutions as is proposed. The honourable Member for Cheltenham has also said that medical men are not well instructed in this disease. Where should they learn it if not at Jamaica? We all remember the old sailors' rhyme, "The bight of Benin, the bight of Benin, few come out, the many go in"; and I certainly do think that this extremely small sum is the only sum in the Estimates which will be well spent. I see a small sum is destined for the Royal Society, and the right honourable Gentleman is going to do for an extremely small sum of money a work which, I venture to say, will be associated with his name and office so long as hospitals and fever exist.
  *MR. LAWRENCE: I emphatically object to the statement of the honourable Gentleman who has just sat down that Jamaica is the very best place for the study of yellow fever. Three years ago I became acquainted with the House Surgeon at Kingston Hospital, who told me that for 16 years he had not seen one case of yellow fever, excepting in one instance, when four or five people were hit by it. It is a calumny upon the climate of Jamaica to have such a statement made upon the floor of this House. I have heard that in days gone by the climate of the West Indies was thought to be equally as unhealthy as that of the West Coast of Africa, and therefore I believe that what has happened there,
  494
  where there has been so much improvement, will happen here, and that the time will come when the Colonial Secretary will rind his statements correct. I would only say, before I sit down, that I regret that the city of Liverpool, which has a large interest—which is concerned with at least half of the trade of the West Coast of Africa—is not to have the benefit of such a grant as this. The trade of the West Coast is handled by Liverpool, and the city of Liverpool did hope that the Government would see its way to have a school situated in the heart of that important trade centre. I trust that the Tight honourable Gentleman will give the matter his consideration, and, even if on this occasion he does not see fit to vote a sum to Liverpool to assist in the study of these diseases, that on a future occasion, as the matter becomes more important, it may be thought proper, on the part of the Government, that if there should be two hospitals in this country for the study of this very important disease, one shall be at Liverpool. I did not rise specially to touch on this matter of hospitals for tropical diseases, but rather to allude to the other Votes, which I understand the House is now prepared to consider. I do not wish to stand in the way of those who wish to continue the discussion upon the hospitals, but I was under the impression that no other honourable Member was willing to deal with that subject. I rose really to ask the right honourable Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he can tell us what is the principle on which the Vote of the special subsidies in the matter of the hurricane is going to be expended; whether the right honourable Gentleman himself has given instructions as to how they ought to be expended in the Colonies: why it is that the island of St. Lucia does not figure in the list; and why has St. Vincent, which has been hardest hit, the lowest grant, and the island of Barbados the largest? There is one other matter which I should like to allude to. Since the matter of the West Indies was-discussed in this House last Session, one of the most terrible hurricanes of the century has passed over the islands. That hurricane has thrown a great deal of light upon the question as to how these islands should be dealt with in future, especially by the Home Govern-

  495
  ment. The Royal Commission dealt specially with this question, and strongly recommended the cultivation of sugar.
  THE DEPUTY CHAIRMAN: Order, order! The question does not arise on this Vote. The honourable Member must confine himself strictly to items arising out of this Vote.
  *MR. LAWRENCE: What I desire to point out is, that under this hurricane, which is an abstract lesson as to the way in which these West Indian questions should be treated, we have learnt, as all the reports of the island showed, that where the hurricane completely destroyed the fruit trees root and branch, when it came across the fields of sugar, they, after having been for a fortnight laid flat, rose up, and there was still a crop to be reaped. I venture to remind the House of one single consideration, that whereas the Royal Commission laid great store on fruit cultivation we have this hurricane to show that if the inhabitants had put their trust in the cultivation of fruit they would have suffered more than they did through continuing to cultivate sugar. In order to inform the House how frequent these hurricanes are, I hold in my hand a list of the hurricanes which have visited the island of Jamaica, which is not, I might state, in the direct line of hurricanes. During the last century there were no less than 11 hurricanes, and during the present century there have been 14 hurricanes, up to the present year, which have actually hit the island. There were six or eight other hurricanes which visited the neighbourhood, and although this island is not in the line of hurricanes, as I said before, it is a very risky district in which to grow fruit. It seems to me that this is a very important matter, and these hurricanes supply us with a good deal of information, because they show us how the Mother Country is to treat its West Indian Colonies. And if it does that, it will not altogether have been an unmitigated evil. We shall have learned a lesson from these hurricanes, which will thus have made for the good of the people out there; but if we do not learn that lesson we shall spend our money in vain.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: It appears to me that if the honourable Gentleman who has just spoken was going into the question of the West Indies he might go a little further than he has done, showing that in his view they ought not to build houses in the West Indies, but that they ought to put them in the grant, on the ground that not only fruit trees were destroyed but houses as well. Now, my honourable Friend the Member for Islington intended to bring in an Amendment upon the question of Barbados, but, unfortunately, he is not at present in the House. He asked me last evening if I could bring it on for him, and I consented to do so. Now, my honourable Friend collected a vast amount of information, which he was to give to me yesterday, and which I, having mastered, was to give to the House; and I am sure that the House will share my regret that my honourable Friend the Member for Islington has forgotten to provide me with that information, and he is not here to give it himself. Now, I doubt whether these grants are altogether useful. There was in 1897 a grant of £160,000 for the West Indies, and in 1898 a further large grant was made for the same purpose. I am, of course, quite aware that these amounts had been expended through the Colonial Audits. These grants, no doubt, have been added to by private subscriptions. When the last disaster occurred we had a fund started by the Mansion House. That fund produced £50,000, and there is no evidence that that was not sufficient to meet the immediate distress in those islands. Sir, it strikes me very forcibly that the damage, as is generally the case, was very greatly exaggerated in the newspapers. Whenever we hear of any disaster taking place in Barbados, we are always told that 10,000 houses are destroyed, and 100,000 people are rendered homeless, and, in point of fact, that everything is destroyed. Now, if you heard in England of 10,000 houses being destroyed by a hurricane you would stand aghast. But the honourable Gentleman who has just sat down will bear me out when I say that the houses in Barbados are simply bamboo huts.
  MR. LAWRENCE: I saw in the papers that the houses destroyed were 4,000.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I can only say that my honourable Friend the Member for Islington saw in the papers that the houses destroyed were 10,000. But perhaps my honourable Friend the Member for Islington reads newspapers of a more sensational character than the honourable Gentleman opposite. No doubt a great deal of injury has been done, but it is only of a temporary character, because these huts which have been destroyed can be built again for £1 or £2, and when we talk of people being rendered homeless I have myself been homeless in the sense of sometimes sleeping under a tree, when I slept just as well as I could have done in a house. What I should like to know from the Colonial Secretary is whether this money is to be expended solely for the necessities of the poor people. Take the Mansion House Fund of £50,000. That will provide 50,000 persons with 5 shillings a week for four weeks, by which time the immediate distress of the people would be over, because by that time they would get their bananas and other foods to grow up, and the £50,000 could hardly be exhausted during that time in buying food; but it is well observed in the newspapers that the property in the island of St. Vincent, property of the Church of England, was destroyed to the extent of something like £213,000. It is also observed that the loss to the Wesleyan community for injuries to their chapels is £6,000, while the Roman Catholic Church will not repair their churches for less than £3,000. Now, of course, the great body of the people of the islands had a very good claim for the immediate relief of their necessities, but I doubt whether the West Indies have a right to claim that we should make them a going concern in consequence of the loss which they have sustained by the hurricane. I should like to know whether any of this money is to be expended on the property of the religious communities or upon the planters' sugar houses. I saw myself in the papers that the sugar industry had been destroyed, that the industry had been so damaged that they had no means to carry on their business. Now, we have trouble enough in England. Take the case of Essex, which, as we know, has some of the best wheat-growing land in the country, but it has depreciated till
  498
  the land in Essex is now absolutely worthless; but it is never suggested that we should compensate the labourer, the tenant, or the owner of the land in Essex; and it seems to me that when any planter has a sugar house, or any religious community has a church or a chapel, that they ought to insure it. Now, the honourable Gentleman who has just sat down said that there were 13 hurricanes in Jamaica during the last few years. My honourable Friend the Member for Islington has apparantly gone very much more deeply into this subject, because he says that during the last 300 years there have been 355 hurricanes passing over the country, which is an average of one and a half hurricanes in each year. But in any case there is no doubt that hurricanes are of frequent occurrence there during August and September, and anybody who lives in the West Indies and puts up his sugar factories must accept the fact that if he does not insure them he runs a great risk of being injured by any hurricane which comes along. Might I ask the right honourable Gentleman to give a full explanation to the Committee of the mode in which the money was expended, how much has been expended, and how much remains, because I see a note that the amount shall be paid over as a whole, and no part remaining unpaid after the 31st of March shall be paid. The West Indies have got over the effect of their hurricane now. Nobody is now being starved because of the hurricane, or are without houses. £50,000 was, I think, enough to give food and necessaries of life to the people who were suffering from the climate. That does not seem to be the case here; in view of the cases that I have seen in the newspapers as to the Wesleyan, the Church of England, and the Roman Catholic communities. The view that I take of the Estimates is that all the money has not been expended, and that it is being kept for a nest egg. I will not move my Amendment now because the right honourable Gentleman proposes, I believe, to give an explanation of what has occurred. If that explanation, however, is not satisfactory I reserve to myself the right to move an Amendment.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: I do not think that the House of Commons will envy the honourable Gentleman in the task he has taken over from the honourable Member for Islington. After all it is not a very gracious matter to make bad jokes about a calamity which is the greatest national calamity that has happened in the West India Islands within our recollection. Hurricanes are, according to the honourable Gentleman, common in the West Indies, and he stated that there had been 355 hurricanes in 300 years. That may be so, but there has not been a great hurricane such as that which has recently taken place, which has caused so much calamity since 1831. On that occasion Lord Althorpe came down to the House —apparently the country was not so rich then as it is now—and proposed a grant of £100,000, in addition to a loan of one million sterling. Curiously enough I find, on looking through the Debate that took place upon that occasion, that he was warmly supported in his proposal by Mr. Labouchere. The honourable Member makes light of the sufferings of these poor people on this recent occasion. and he does so on the ground that he has seen statements in the newspapers which are greatly exaggerated. Well, that is not an uncommon thing, for statements in newspapers are often exaggerated. But we have made this proposal not upon the statements in the newspapers, but upon the Official Reports which we have received ourselves from the governors and officials on the spot. Now let me read what is said by one who was, at all events, an impartial witness, in the person of the captain of Her Majesty's ship "Intrepid." who was there at the time. This officer states that—
  "The whole islands, including St. Vincent had the appearance of having been fired through, and utter desolation prevailed everywhere. There was hardly a green spot where before all was verdant and beautiful to look upon. Towns and villages, viewed from the sea had the appearance of having, been bombarded. In St. Vincent 200 lives were lost, and out of a total population of 41,000, some 20,000 were shelterless and without the means of subsistence, and three-fourths of the population were only kept from starvation by receiving daily rations. In Barbados, 112 persons lost their lives, and the total loss to property was £283,000. The number of labourers' houses destroyed was 11,426, and the number damaged 4,984."
  500
  In addition to this damage, Government public works, and State-aided schools suffered enormously. To meet that damage we have asked—in addition to the private subscriptions, which amount to something like £15,000, raised by the Mansion House Fund—for a free grant of £40,000 for Barbados, a free grant of £2,000 for St. Vincent, and for a loan in each of these islands of £50,000. The grants from the Mansion House Fund, which were very early distributed, were given entirely in the shape of relief, and the free grants which we ask for now have been expended to cover the expenses of relief, to assist the people in re-housing themselves, and in repairs to public works, because we have to consider, in the condition in which these islands are now placed, the question of restoring these public works, some of which have been destroyed. I must confess that I think this demand is an extremely moderate one, and it has been made after the most careful consideration and conference with Governor Hay, and upon the written reports which we have received from the islands. Certainly there is no idea of making a nest-egg, and the whole of this money will be required and will be spent for the benefit of the population. I do not know why the honourable Gentleman introduced this tale about Wesleyan chapels and churches, for there is not, and never has been, the slightest intention of making grants out of the public funds for the repair of those institutions, no matter to what denomination they belong. No doubt these people have suffered seriously, but we have not made any grants towards the repair of their property, and the honourable Gentleman has no ground for suggesting that any grants will be made for this purpose. My honourable Friend asked why a grant was not made to St. Lucia. Well, in the first place, the damage there was not so great, and we had reason to believe that the grant was not so necessary in that district, although we have taken care that St. Lucia has had a liberal contribution from the Mansion House Fund. St. Lucia is not quite in the same position as the other islands, because, owing to the arrangement made by the Admiralty, it is now a naval station, and enjoys a larger measure of prosperity. With regard to what my honourable Friend said in reference to the sugar-cane industry

  501
  as contrasted with fruit, I think he is inclined to argue against the Report of the Royal Commission, hut it seems to me that there is room for both. I have no desire to see the destruction of the sugar industry, and I am perfectly convinced that any such violent change as the honourable Gentleman behind me has suggested would be disastrous to the interests of the West Indies. On the other hand, I cordially agree myself with the recommendations of the Commissioners that we should endeavour to aid other industries, so that those Islands might not be dependent upon the one industry of sugar. I hope that the House will think that I have made out a case for this moderate grant in what I have said, and I am quite sure that the benevolence which has been already anticipated by some of our Colonies, such as Canada, Natal, Lagos, Mauritius, and the Straits Settlements, will be thoroughly appreciated.
  MR. BUXTON: I only need to trouble the Committee with a very few words upon this Vote, because it is totally different, and is not affected except indirectly by what we have already voted, or what the right honourable Gentleman may offer to do in the future. This is simply a Vote to give—as we have frequently given—the Government of the day funds to meet the damage which has occurred, and which has caused such disastrous results that if relief were not given there would have been such distress that perhaps starvation would have taken place in a large number of cases, and the Government have come down and asked us to assist in relieving that distress. Therefore, this is purely a matter of relief. The right, honourable Gentleman has explained that every sixpence of this grant will go to the relief of those unfortunate people in Barbadoes and St. Vincent, and this money has not teen asked for with the motives which seem to have actuated the honourable Member for Northampton that we were going to a great expenditure to benefit the sugar industry, for the repair of religious institutions, or any other way. That is as far as I understand the right honourable Gentleman. Therefore, I shall give a cordial support to this Vote, and I trust that the right honourable Gentleman will do all that is
  502
  possible to relieve this great distress which has occurred in the West Indian Islands.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I understand from what the right honourable Gentleman the Secretary for the Colonies has stated that nothing out of this grant is to go to any of these religious sects to which I have referred. My honourable Friend who has just spoken said he understood that nothing was to go to assist the sugar industry.
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: What I meant was that in this grant we are asking for nothing in connection with the policy of assisting the sugar industries, for which we have had Votes already and for which we may have other Votes. I do not say that this grant may not indirectly benefit the sugar industry, because it will assist the natives in a large number of cases to carry on their industry.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: My honourable Friend and I agree that the right honourable Gentleman does not wish this money to be spent in assisting the owners of sugar industries, although they may have suffered loss, but he wants the money to be spent upon the direct and absolute necessities of the poor inhabitants of the country. Do I understand from the right honourable Gentleman's statement that that is so?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: All grants that are made are expected to assist the sugar industry. I do not think, however, that any part of the free grant will be given to assist directly the sugar industry, for a large portion, if not the whole, of the loans will be devoted to that express purpose. The object of this grant is to enable those estates which have been temporarily thrown out of cultivation to resume cultivation, and in that way this assistance will be of the greatest possible advantage to the population.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: What about the Loans Bill?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES: Perhaps I have given the honourable Gentleman more infor-

  503
  mation than I should have done. It is a large question, and I would rather argue it when the Estimates for the year come on. This is only a preliminary to the carrying out of that scheme.
  Vote agreed to.

  CLASS VI.
  4 £517, Supplementary, Pauper Lunatics, Ireland.
  Vote agreed to.

  CIVIL SERVICES (EXCESS), 1897–8.
  5. £1 5s. 1d., Public Record Office.
  Vote agreed to.

  NAVY (SUPPLEMENTARY), 1898–9.
  6. £350,000, Supplementary, Navy.
  *SIR U. KAY SHUTTLEWORTH: I desire to ask for an explanation as to the substitution of the Supplementary Estimate now before the Committee in place of that first issued to Members. The Supplementary Estimate introduced earlier in the Session and then withdrawn was for £450,000, but the Estimate now before the Committee has been revised, and is £100,000 less than the original Estimate asked for. Not only is this Estimate considerably different in the total amount, but the details are also different. I find some new items in the Estimate produced on the 1st of March which did not appear in the original Supplementary Estimate. I find that there is an entirely new item under Vote 9, Naval Armaments, for which £100,000 is asked. I think, for these reasons, the Committee may fairly ask for more information than that which is given in the Supplementary Estimate. I gathered from the statement of the First Lord of the Admiralty that some of this expenditure on guns was needed in connection with the Supplementary Naval Programme, and I should like to know whether that money is to be spent at Woolwich. Then, with respect to coal, an answer was given yesterday which leads me to think that £316,000, in addition to what was taken in the Estimates of last year, has been expended on coal. That
  504
  is rather a large amount. I should like some further explanation on that point, especially as it is a very large excess. The total amount which was voted in the original Estimate was £605,000, so that it looks as if more than half as much again had been spent in coal during the current year than was provided for in the original Estimate. There is one further question I would like to ask, and that is: Whether there is anything in this Estimate in relief of the Estimates of 1899–1900? We have had an Army Supplementary Estimate before the House, in which a large amount of the sum asked for was in relief of the Estimate of next year. In other words, the Estimate was framed and the money was asked for in order that the Estimates for the coming year might be reduced. I will not go into details on this question, but I should like to know if there is anything in this Estimate of that character, because if there is, some remarks should be made by way of protest against this growing practice. I hope serious notice will be taken by the authorities in this House of the growing practice of introducing Supplementary Estimates, not with the object of providing for some additional expenditure incurred within the year, but for items which really belong to the expenditure of another financial year. I do not think I need trouble the House further except to ask for these details of information, which I have no doubt the Secretary to the Admiralty will be able to furnish.
  *THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. MACARTNEY,): I can assure the right honourable Gentleman that not one penny is taken in this Supplementary Estimate in relief of the Estimates for this year. The money we are asking for entirely applies to the expenditure for the current year. The right honourable Gentleman has asked me to explain the reasons which led to the substitution of the present Supplementary Estimate for the one previously laid before the House. In the first Supplementary Estimate the amounts were prepared from the information which was then at our disposal with regard to the earnings of the contractors, but subsequent to that Supplementary Vote having been prepared, we were informed that the earnings of

  505
  the contractors during the present financial year would fall short by £100,000. Under these circumstances, I will say at once that it would have been not only inexpedient, but improper, to ask Parliament to give its sanction to a Supplementary Estimate so largely in excess of what we had reason to believe would be required. With regard to the new items, alluded to by the right honourable Gentleman, which did not appear in the original Estimate, I may say that these sums have been put down as the amount which we shall require to make up the total of £350,000, and there was no special design in the substitution of these particular items. The reason Vote 9 was taken was that I desired to make use of the Appropriation in Aid. It would not have been quite a proper course of procedure from the accountant's point of view, to utilise the Appropriation in Aid in relation to a Vote which was not in the Supplementary Estimate. For this reason I took £100,000 on Vote 9. With regard to coal, the expenditure for the current year would be, roughly, £900,000. Of that total, £140,000 represents the demand made very early in the financial year, in the month of May, at a time when we could not expect to have any savings, and this expenditure was for the North American station, the ships in Chinese waters, and the Cape station, the details of which are £97,000 for Chinese waters, £16,000 for the Cape station, £17,000 for the North American station, and £10,000 for other stations.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I am not quite sure that the honourable Gentleman has made it clear to the ordinary intelligence why this second edition of the Supplementary Estimate was required. There is such a material discrepancy between the two successive editions, that it makes one wonder upon what principle the Supplementary Estimates are framed at all, and it gives rise to all sorts of natural suspicions of somewhat careless financing. I think the right honourable Gentleman opposite will admit that we do want a little more explanation on this subject. The right honourable Gentleman said something with regard to the guns, but there was no item of guns at all in the first edition, and here there is an item of £100,000; and in
  506
  order to explain it, the honourable Gentleman says that there was a miscalculation with regard to the earnings of contractors. That only amounted to £20,000, therefore there was a discrepancy of £80,000 suddenly discovered.
  *MR. MACARTNEY: I desired to utilise the Appropriation in Aid.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: That would justify the Vote for £20,000; but there is a large margin of £80,000 for guns. I daresay this is all necessary and required, but if that was found to be the case, and found to be true when this second edition of the Supplementary Estimate was issued, why was it not known when the first edition was issued a few days before? That is the point as to which we express some surprise. We seem to be providing now in this Estimate for something which has been known for weeks and months before, and what has not been made clear to us is that there was a Supplementary Estimate issued by the Admiralty and circulated amongst Members of the House of Commons, and then a few days later a totally different Estimate with different figures and new items is circulated. It may be all right, but it looks as if there has been an amount of carelessness of a haphazard character about it which I think deserves a little more explanation than we have yet reached.
  THE FIRST LORD OP THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. GOSCHEN,: The point is this, that the first Supplementary Estimate was withdrawn and another substituted in its place because we found that the contractors could earn by £100,000 the amount which we asked for in the Supplementary Estimate.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: And that was discovered in this short interval of time?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY: That is so. I am sure that the right honourable Gentleman will see that over these vast sums we cannot know exactly what will be earned, and it does not seem desirable if we did not want £450,000, to ask the House of Commons for it. These guns were ordered and instalments paid upon them, and during the previous months we knew all about

  507
  it. But originally these guns were paid for out of the savings of the Supplementary Estimate. There has been no miscalculation except so far as this £100,000 is concerned, as to which we are dependent upon the information of the contractors.
  *SIR C. DILKE: The right honourable Gentleman has not alluded to the point of coal to which his attention was called, and as to which I do not understand the reply of the Secretary to the Admiralty. As I understood him, there has been a large additional expenditure in coal over the normal expenditure, and that has not arisen, I understand, in consequence of the mobilisation of the Reserve Squadron, but has arisen on the China, South African, and North American stations. Therefore, I cannot myself quite understand how so large an additional expenditure on coal can have arisen at stations like those I have mentioned.
  *MR. MACARTNEY: I think I explained that the sum of £140,000 only went to these stations, but that does not account for the whole of this expenditure, and as the right honourable Gentleman is aware, large sums are spent upon other important stations. We are now asking the consent of the House to the sum which was specifically allocated to the Fleet in those waters on the 24th of May.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I must congratulate the Admiralty on having done a very clever thing. They do not wish to have an item appearing in the Supplementary Estimates which will give us the opportunity of raising a discussion on the Soudan and Fashoda policy in connection with this Vote. But as a matter of fact the Admiralty are asking for a considerable amount for coals. These coals were consumed during that time, and yet we are assured that these were not the particular coals that the right honourable Gentleman is asking for, and for which an excess Vote is required. The Secretary to the Admiralty gave a list of the stations where they were consumed, and then it suddenly struck him that there was still a little more coal to be accounted for, and he simply waved his hand and said, "The Committee will understand that the balance has been expended in other
  508
  stations." I should have liked to raise the whole question, and I regret that the right honourable Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench have not given us some clear explanation in regard to these coals. At the same time, I am bound to say that I think they do not want to discuss this matter.
  Vote agreed to.

  ARMY (ORDNANCE FACTORIES) EXCESS. 1897–8.
  7. £100, Army (Ordnance Factories).
  Vote agreed to.
  Resolutions to be reported upon Monday next; Committee to sit again upon Monday next.

  MOTION FOR ADJOURNMENT.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I beg leave to move—"That the House do now adjourn." I hope no objection will be taken to this course, for as the House is aware, we have now obtained the amount of Supply we desired up to this point. An arrangement has been made that the Army Votes shall not be proceeded with now, and, by a long-standing rule, it is not usual to take Bills on Fridays when Supply is set down.
  Question put.
  Motion agreed to.

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Committee deferred till Monday next.

  ADULTERATION (FOOD PRODUCTS) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes after Seven of the clock.

Preamble
THE LORD CHANCELLOR THE LORD CHANCELLOR took his seat upon the Woolsack at Four of the clock.
PETITION—CLAIM TO VOTE.
Earl of Wicklow—Petition of Ralph Francis Earl of Wicklow claiming a right to vote at the election of Representative Peers for Ireland; read, and referred to the Lord Chancellor to consider and report thereupon to the House.

PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
THE LORD CHANCELLORacquainted the House that the Clerk of Parliaments had laid upon the Table the Certificate from the Examiners that the further Standing Orders applicable to the following Bill have been complied with:—
Surrey Commercial Docks [H.L.]
The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

ABERDEEN CORPORATION BILL [H.L.]
A Petition of John Kennedy, writer to the signet, praying for leave to present a petition of Malcolm Vivian Hay and his curators, praying to be heard by counsel against the Bill, although the time limited by Standing Order No. 92 for presenting such petition has expired; read, and ordered to lie on the Table; and Standing Order No. 92 to be considered on Monday next in order to its being dispensed with in respect of the said petition.

HULL, BARNSLEY, AND WEST RIDING JUNCTION RAILWAY AND DOCK BILL [H.L.]
Committed.
Southport Tramways Bill [H.L.]
North Eastern and Hull and Barnsley Railways (Joint Dock) Bill [ILL.]
Furness Water Bill [H.L.]
Totland Water Bill [H.L.]
Great Grimsby Street Tramways Bill [H.L.]
Committed: The Committees to be proposed by the Committee of Selection.

LANARKSHIRE (MIDDLE WARD DISTRICT) WATER BILL [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEESinformed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn; The orders made on the 27th of February and on Monday last discharged; and Bill committed for Tuesday next.

KIRKCALDY CORPORATION AND TRAMWAYS RILL [H.L.]
THE CHAIRMAN OP COMMITTEESinformed the House that the opposition to the Bill was withdrawn: The orders made on the 27th of February and on Monday last discharged; and Bill committed.
Belfast Corporation Bill
National Telephone Company (No. 1) Bill
National Telephone Company (No. 2) Bill
Mersey Docks and Harbour Board (Pilotage) Bill [H.L.] (Petition for additional Provision)
Gainsborough Urban District Council (Gas) Bill [H.L.] (Petition for adtional Provision)
Examiner's Certificates of non-compliance with the Standing Orders referred to the Standing Orders Committee on Thursday next.

RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1894.
  Order in Council of 7th March 1899, respecting the load line of ships registerd in the Colony of Victoria.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  ASSIZE ACTS, 1876 AND 1879.
  Two Orders in Council of 7th March 1899, under the Spring Assizes Act, 1879, for the Spring Assize Counties, Nos. 2 and 3.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  BANKRUPTCY COURTS (IRELAND).
  Returns of the official assignees of the Court of Bankruptcy in Ireland, and the local courts Belfast and Cork, for the year 1898.
  Laid before the House (pursuant to Act), and ordered to lie on the Table.

  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (SWANSEA) BILL [H.L.]
  To be read second time on Monday next.

  CATHCARTS DIVORCE BILL [H.L.]
  Amendment reported (according to order), and Bill to be read third time on Monday next.
  Aberdeen Corporation Bill [H.L.]
  Dumbarton Burgh Bill [H.L.]
  Greenock and Port Glasgow Tramways Bill [H.L.]
  Perth Water, Police, and Gas Bill [H.L.]
  West Highland Railway Bill [H.L.]
  Airdrie and Coatbridge Water Bill [H.L.]
  Wishaw Water Bill [H.L.]
  The meeting of the Select Committee, which stands appointed for Tuesday next at Eleven o'clock, put off to Wednesday next at Eleven o'clock.
  Cromer Protection Bill [H.L.]
  Glastonbury Water Bill [H.L.]
  Yeadon and Guiseley Gas Bill [H.L.]
  Bristol Gas Bill [H.L.]
  Lea Bridge District Gas Bill [H.L.]
  Queen's Ferry Bridge Bill [H.L.]
  Nene Valley Water Bill [H.L.]
  St. Neot's Water Bill [H.L.]
  Report from the Committee of Selection that the Lord Pirbright be proposed to the House as a member of the Select Committee in the place of the Lord Rookwood; and that the Lord Pirbright be Chairman of the said Committee; read, and agreed to.

  HOUSE OF LORDS AND COMMONS PERMANENT STAFF JOINT COMMITTEE.
  A message ordered to be sent to the House of Commons to propose that the Joint Committee do meet in Committee Room A on Friday next, at Twelve o'clock.
  House adjourned at half-past Four of the clock, to Monday next, a quarter past Four of the clock.