Sitting of 13 July 1898

Preamble
MR. SPEAKERtook the Chair at Twelve of the clock.
PRIVATE BILL BUSINESS.
  LONDON AND SOUTH WESTERN RAILWAY BILL. [H.L.]
  As amended, considered; Amendments made; Bill to be read the third time.
  MANCHESTER CARRIAGE AND TRAMWAYS COMPANY BILL. [H.L.]
  Read a second time, and committed.
  SAINT MARYLEBONE CHURCHES BILL. [H.L.]
  To be read a second time To-morrow.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
  Lords' Amendments considered, and agreed to.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 8) BILL.
  Lords' Amendments considered, and agreed to.

  HEYWOOD CORPORATION BILL. [H.L.]
  Report [12th July] from the Select Committee on Standing Orders read.
  Ordered, That the Bill be read a second time.—(Dr. Farquharson.)

PETITIONS.
  DOGS REGULATION BILL.
  Against, from Brighton (2), West Ham, Homerton, and London; to lie upon the Table.
  EAST INDIA (CONTAGIOUS DISEASES).
  Against State Regulation, from Bristol, Bathwick, Glasgow, Clifton, and Barton Hill; to lie upon the Table.
  GEOLOGICAL MUSEUM.
  From North Kent, against removal from Jermyn Street; to lie upon the Table.
  MARRIAGE WITH A DECEASED WIFE'S SISTER BILL.
  From Glasgow, against; to lie upon the Table.
  PARISH COUNCILLORS (TENURE OF OFFICE) BILL.
  From Bosden, in favour; to lie upon the Table.
  SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY BILL.
  In favour, from City Road, Aylestone, Oldham, and Liverpool; to lie upon the Table.
RETURNS, REPORTS, ETC.
  CIVIL SERVICES (ADDITIONAL ESTIMATE, 1898–9).
  Estimate presented, of the Amount required in the year ending 31st March, 1899, for certain expenditure, including sundry Grants-in-Aid, in connection with the Relief of Distress in Ireland [by Command]; Referred to the Committee of Supply, and to be printed. [No. 296.]

  FISHERIES (IRELAND).
  Copy presented of Report of Inspectors of Irish Fisheries on the Sea and Inland Fisheries of Ireland for 1897 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
  Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House—

  CHARITABLE ENDOWMENTS (WEST RIDING OF THE COUNTY OF YORK).
  Further Return relative thereto [ordered 10th August, 1894; Mr. Francis Stevenson]; to be printed. [No. 297.]

  PRIVATE BILLS (GROUP H).
  Sir AUGUSTUS GODSONreported from the Committee on Group H of Private Bills, That the parties promoting the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 12) Bill [Marylebone Order] had stated that the evidence of Silvanus Phillips Thompson, of 1, Chislett Road, West Hampstead, N.W., was essential to their case; and it having been proved that his attendance could not be procured without the intervention of the House, he had been instructed to move that the said Silvanus Phillips Thompson do attend the said Committee this day, at a Quarter after Twelve of the clock.
  Ordered, That Silvanus Phillips Thompson do attend the Committee on Group H of Private Bills this day, at a quarter after Twelve of the clock.

  VIGORS' DIVORCE BILL. [H.L.]
  Ordered, That a Message be sent to the Lords, to request that their Lordships will be pleased to communicate to this House Copies of the Minutes of Evidence and Proceedings, together with the documents deposited in the case of Vigors' Divorce Bill [H.L.]; and that the Clerk do carry the said Message.
  Ordered, That it be an Instruction to the Select Committee on Divorce Bills, that they do hear Counsel and examine Witnesses for Vigors' Divorce Bill [H.L.]; and also that they do hear Counsel and examine Witnesses against the Bill, if the parties concerned think fit to be heard by Counsel, and produce Witnesses.—(Mr. Attorney General.)

ORDER OF THE DAY.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) BILL.
  The House resumed consideration of this Bill, as amended, in Committee.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 24, line 2, at beginning, insert 'for the period of five years.'"—(Mr. Strachey.)
  MR. STRACHEY: The object of this Amendment is to place a limit upon this grant to local taxpayers in Ireland in connection with agricultural land, and to limit it for the same period of time as that of Great Britain. Up to now the Government has given us no better reason why there should be this different treatment between the British and Irish taxpayer than the reason that unless they give preferential treatment to the taxpayer in Ireland, whether they be occupiers or landlords, they could not pass this Bill. I cannot help thinking that that shows great poverty of resource. There is a better argument than that. It seems to me that that is hardly an argument to address to those representatives on either side of this House of the dominant partner. Are they to be told that there is no merit in making this grant perpetual, instead of making it for a period of five years, as was done in the case of Great Britain? There seems to me to be a strong argument against making this grant perpetual and a strong argument in favour of making it for a period of five years. One of the reasons put forward by the Government was that they were about to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the whole system of finance, and the whole incidence of local taxation of Great Britain, including Ireland. I believe the question is to be considered in Ireland at the present moment. Well, what is the use of considering the incidence of local taxation in Ireland if that matter is to be judged by making this grant in perpetuity? It is very remarkable that this was not introduced into the Bill at first, but only put in afterwards after arguments had been addressed to the question from both sides of the House, and the terms of the

  805
  agricultural grant of England and Scotland were moved by a supporter of Her Majesty's Government. There was no Party consideration at all, and therefore I appeal to the right honourable Gentleman to approach this question from a thoroughly practical point of view. Now, one advantage, as I have always pointed out, would be that we should have equal treatment, but there would be another advantage which would be obvious. If you would make this distinction, it will be a difficult matter hereafter to refuse the English grant in Ireland and put it on all fours with. England. I cannot help thinking that Members upon the opposite side of the House will, during the time of the next election, be advocating that there should be equal treatment in the case of the two kingdoms, and be forced to say that there should be a limit put upon this grant. I quite agree that it is necessary to have in Ireland some protection for the landlord and big occupier, but even if that is so, surely five years is long enough to see if the Act will work, and to see whether the injustice which the Irish landlords fear may be done to them by the rents being unduly raised is correct. If it be so, the Government can come to this House and say, we will stereotype this relief of the landlords from the taxpayers, but if it is not so, then it will be necessary to have special and definite treatment for Ireland in the matter of local taxation. For these reasons, and the fact that there is no necessity to stereotype this relief, I beg leave to move the Amendment.
  Amendment proposed.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The honourable Member who moved this Amendment appealed to the House to approach it from what he called a practical point of view. I am quite ready to do so, and that is the exact position from which I wish to approach it. I stated yesterday, and do so again to-day, that the essential financial provisions and the general scheme of local government in Ireland are intimately associated. Now, what does the honourable Member propose? He proposes that one of those essential elements shall be for five years only. The natural conse-
  806
  quences of that would be that we should carry out the other part of the scheme for five years. Is it practical to suggest that the entire scheme of local government for Ireland shall only last for a period of five years? The thing is not possible. If the House agree that our general scheme includes the national taxation of Ireland as an essential principle, it is impossible to limit that to a period of five years only.
  MR. WARNER: I cannot agree with the right honourable Gentleman the Chief Secretary. We have been given an assurance that the whole of the taxation system, including that of Ireland, is to be taken into consideration, and the term for the English and Scotch grant was fixed for five years. Why this term should be given to Ireland so that it should not get any benefit if it was found later to be in a worse condition than England I cannot understand. Last night the Chief Secretary said that a very small minority wished to argue this point. I think that is rather a mistake, because he has had to bribe both sections of his own Party to agree with his carrying this Bill, and has made a job by bribery and chicanery—it comes to that practically. It is a political dodge. He said we had declared for this clause upon the Second Reading of the Bill, but we are all in favour of local government for Ireland, and why should we vote against the Second Reading if we agree with the Bill in the main? This clause is a most mischievous clause, because a bad financial system is set up, and we object to it, especially that part which places England and Ireland in different positions. I know perfectly well that the result of this Bill will be to make Home Rule inevitable, but that is not the point at all. The point is that we are introducing by this Bill the principle of subvention, and a class of subvention which we over here very much object to. We are introducing it in Ireland under a worse system and under worse conditions than in England. The English subvention has not been exactly the success that was anticipated, and at the end of five years it will be found that the Government will be only too happy to modify it in some way or other, and make it more popular.

  807
  Why are they not ready to modify this subvention? We do not wish that one penny should be taken away from Ireland which is given to her, but we say the Government will find that their method of giving it is fatal. We object to its being made a permanent clause, if it is to ensure that the whole of the money shall go into the landlords' pockets. If there is a limit to it, it may probably go into the pockets of the tenants at first, but it will not be of any permanent benefit to the land, but if it is made permanent it will go into the landlords' pockets. We know the Government have to bribe the landlord party to acquiesce in this Bill, but that is no reason why we should not oppose it tooth and nail when the Government bring in such an objectionable clause as this. I hope my honourable Friend will go to a Division, and I hope the Irish Members will support him. The Irish Members have stated they will not have anything to do with this, but, if anything, will recast financial relations. But when this matter is discussed upon the financial relations the Irish representatives may not be the arbiters; they may not be able to say, "This sum is a permanent grant to Ireland." When a future House of Commons has to deal with this matter—I do not suppose the present will have to do so—when a future House has to take the financial relations into consideration, the representatives sent over by Irish constituencies may have to look on this matter as a readjustment of the financial relations. They object to its being taken into consideration in that way, because it is not given more to the people of Ireland than to the landlords. But it is only granted for the limited period they will be able at the end of five years to demand this grant, not for the landlords, but for the people of Ireland; and if they then find, as they probably will, that the House of Commons considers that this is a subvention to Ireland, and insists upon taking it into consideration, in reviewing the financial relations, they may, at that time, have power to say, "We will not have it in this form, but we will have it in such a form that shall give it to the poor classes of Ireland." I think the Government have not given sufficient attention
  808
  to this matter, and I think, from a practical point of view, the Government have ignored their traditions and given themselves away for Party purposes.
  MR. MCKENNA: No the Chief Secretary thoroughly understood his own argument when he told us the financial provisions were an essential part of the scheme for local government in Ireland. He is undoubtedly right in the statement, but what are the financial provisions which are essential to the scheme? He has on another occasion informed us of his essential financial provisions. Under this Bill the balance of power is transferred, so far as the control of local expenditure is concerned, from the large to the small ratepayers. Now, under the Irish system of local taxation as it now exists the large ratepayers, having the control and the voting power, are able to limit the expenditure; but it is felt that to transfer the voting power, and give equal franchise to all the ratepayers, large and small, would be to transfer to the small ratepayers the means of embarking upon an extravagant expenditure, which might work to the disadvantage of the large ratepayers. Consequently the Government alter the system of ratepaying in Ireland, and compel the occupier to pay all the rates, and take from the landlord the burden he bears of half the rates, and transfer the whole burden to the occupier. Now, that provision may be essential to the scheme of local government—that is to say, as the small ratepayers will have the control of the expenditure, it is essential that they should feel the entire responsibility of meeting it. But a payment out of the local taxation grant to the landowners of Ireland is not an essential part of the scheme at all. It is a grant in aid given to a particular class of persons. All the provisions of the Bill would proceed in the same way exactly if this grant in aid were not given, or if made to tenants only instead of landlords. It is a misuse of language to declare that financial provisions are essential. If the grant from the local taxation account were limited to five years, the other provisions of the Bill would remain intact without these financial provisions affecting the matter. But the argument which the right honourable Gentleman put forward is no

  809
  answer to us. This grant was based upon the grant of the English Act, and the English Act was introduced, partly in order to relieve what was declared to be the unfair burdens which had been placed upon English agricultural land and partly to relieve the acute distress existing in agriculture. The fact that the burden upon land was taken to be excessive was given as the reason for the grant, but it was limited to five years, because it was felt that, though the burdens upon agriculture were truly greater than they ought to be, they were no greater than the burdens pressing upon other industries in the country. The whole matter was submitted to the consideration of a Royal Commission, and the Act was expressly limited to five years in order that the Government might not be pledged by its operation to any definite scheme. At the Royal Commission evidence has been taken for Ireland, as well as for Great Britain. It was decided that, if it was found either in England or Ireland that the relief from the burdens was unfair relief, undoubtedly then we ought not to be parties to any advance before the judgment of the Royal Commission. There ought not to be handed over so large an annual grant to Irish landlords, or even to Irish tenants, unless we are assured that the principle on which that grant is made is fair and equitable. The right honourable Gentleman has not attempted either now or on the previous occasion, when the Bill was under discussion in Committee, to answer the arguments which have been pressed upon him. I appeal to the fair consideration of the House in a matter of equity and fair dealing between the constituencies and the Irish landlords, and I appeal to them, as the guardians of the public purse, that they should not hand over unrestrictedly for ever and ever this large grant without waiting for the judgment of the Royal Commission.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: My honourable Friend below me made an appeal to my honourable Friends from Ireland to support this Amendment, and they treated that appeal with a good deal of merriment. The Royal Commission now sitting has not had the
  810
  question of local taxation within the purview of its investigation. It is a question of what is the amount due to Ireland, and what is the amount due to Great Britain. It is purely a question betwen Great Britain and Ireland—a question between the towns and the country in Great Britain and the towns and the country in Ireland. A great deal has been said about that Commission, and about the evidence that was taken. I think a great deal more will have to be said, if not this Session, at any rate next Session, about that Commission, I think, for my part, that the Commission was not in order in eliciting facts and then postponing its Report on this question. They have hardly taken any evidence, and I believe they are deliberately postponing the issue of the Report. The evidence they have taken as regards Ireland is extremely interesting. The representatives from the towns and boroughs say that the grievances of their constituents are much greater than the grievances of the farmers. Their rates are higher, there is more distress, and their means are less adequate to meet the high rates than they are in the country; their rates are treble and their means are less.
  "Very well," said the President of the Local Government Board, "if there is something in that we will appoint a commission to investigate the matter. You have had the commission, and that commission has reported that there is a case in favour of grants in aid. There has been no commission as far as the towns are concerned. We cannot act except upon the report of a commission; and we will therefore appoint a commission to see whether there is any grievance on that point."
  An exceedingly interesting memorandum has been presented by the Local Government Board for Ireland to this Commission. It has not taken much evidence, but the evidence which it has taken is very relevant to the Debate on this issue, and shows that there is, after all, an opinion, not merely in Great Britain, but in Ireland, in favour of the towns as against the country. The Member for Islington last night made an astounding statement. He said the poor rate in Ireland was double that of this country. I challenge him on that, as he poses as a great authority on local administration in Ireland. To-day I have had an oppor-

  811
  tunity of looking into the memorandum prepared by the Local Government Board for this Commission, which has been appointed, as far as Great Britain and Ireland are concerned, in order that the whole matter should be re-entered into and readjusted at the end of five years. I find that the poor rate in Ireland, instead of being 4s. in the £, as stated by the honourable Member for Islington last night, is 1s. 5¼d. in the £. That is the average throughout the country, but there are cases, I have no doubt, where the poor rate runs up to 3s. or 4s. in the £. The other figure, however, is the average throughout the country. There are several cases in England where it runs up to large amounts. The question, after all, is whether we should have an opportunity in the towns at the end of five years of putting in a claim to a share of this three-quarters of a million. I find that the town taxes amount to 4s. 1¾d., and the honourable Member for Islington was really referring to the grievances of the towns, though he did not know it. My point is that you are going to pay half the poor rate in Ireland in the country, and that the grievances of the town are greater than the grievances of the country, inasmuch as in the towns you have to pay not merely the poor rate, but other rates which do not fall upon the country. We have taxes you know nothing about in the country. The honourable Member for Islington evidently last night quoted exceptional cases. He said there were cases of rates of 4s. in the £, but I find there are towns which are actually rated at 6s. 5¾d. in the £. There are many honourable Gentlemen in the House who represent towns, and I ask them whether they consider it fair to their own towns that they should be debarred from having a share in this sum of £750,000, instead of giving it in perpetuity to the landlords and other classes in Ireland.
  AN IRISH MEMBER: Let us take care of ourselves.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Is it not time that the British Members should take care of themselves? A great deal of this money is coming from Great Britain, and I think we have a right to ask what is going to be done with this money
  812
  The honourable Member for Mayo called it blackmail, and so it is. If it is going to be blackmail, we, at any rate, on this side of the House wash our hands of it. The honourable Member says: "We will take care of ourselves." I know he generally does wherever the British Exchequer is concerned. I ask the honourable Members who represent towns, if there is going to be a readjustment at the end of five years, what the towns will say. My honourable Friends from Ireland are taking care of themselves. Yes, they will take care of themselves; they won't suffer. Now is the time for the British taxpayer to take care of himself. This is given on the assumption that, after five years' silence, there is going to be a readjustment and reconsideration of the whole question; the grievances of the towns are to be reconsidered, as well as the grievances of the country; if the town is treated unfairly as compared with the country, that town grievance is to be redressed. What is going to happen in Ireland? What money that has been given to the landlord in Ireland has ever been disgorged? We have given money for drainage, for rivers, for roads, and for railways, and how much of that money has come back to the British Exchequer? We constantly called upon you to give this money. You give tens of thousands to Irish landlords who get money for their own property in the name of public improvements, and are you going to say that this money given to the Irish landlords is a permanency, and that money given to relieve agricultural distress in England is to be reconsidered at the end of five years? If this Debate proves anything, it proves that your Commission is a farce; it proves that you don't mean it, because everybody knows perfectly well that you cannot treat the British and Irish differently. If you make it a permanency in Ireland you must make it a permanency in Great Britain. It is simply in order to delude the constituencies of the country, because you know that in five years or so there will have been a General Election, and you will say, "This is not the time; no report has been issued, and we cannot deal with the matter." It was never intended to act, and therefore, I support this Amendment.
  MR. BROADHURST: I wish our friends from Ireland to note that the action we are now taking in relation to this Bill is quite consistent with the action we took on the English Bill. We object to this class of legislation on principle, and not because it applies to Ireland; we object to it as applying to any part of the United Kingdom. I know what the Government have in their minds. At the end of five years their friends the landlords will be pressing them for a renewal of the grant. The landlords of Great Britain have a weapon placed in their hands by this clause to strengthen their demand to have their relief in perpetuity. That is one of the reasons why we are opposing this clause, and why we want similar legislation for Ireland as for Great Britain. I thought it was one of the cardinal principles of the Tory Party that legislation was to be applied all round equally to all parties in all parts of the United Kingdom. Here we have special legislation for England and special legislation for Ireland. Why this system of granting Home Rule by privilege? If you are really in favour of giving Ireland the option as to what legislation it should have let the people of that country take their legislation out of their own Parliament, and not bit by bit from this House in this objectionable manner. I wish the honourable Member had been here upon whose Motion the Act of 1896 was limited to five years' application in this country. The Government then gave way because they said that there would be a great stampede of Yorkshire, Lancashire, and Cheshire Members, who would have defeated them in the Lobby had they not surrendered. I regret, therefore, that he who championed the cause of justice and of sound legislation in 1896 is not here now to assist us in making the same principle apply to Ireland. I have no doubt there are many Members on that side of the House who object to this clause. I saw several honourable Members rise some time back, in order, I hope, to protest in the name of their constituents against this legislation. I saw the honourable Member for Peterborough rise——
  MR. PURVIS: May I point out that the honourable Member
  814
  for Peterborough rose to speak against the Amendment?
  MR. BROADHURST: I should have been glad if the honourable Member for Peterborough had stated his reasons for voting against the Amendment, for I consulted his constituents at a great mass meeting a short time back, and then found a unanimous vote, representative of all classes and of all politics, against the system that we are now discussing. We are not dealing on the main question as to the morality of the grant; that we deal with at a later stage. We are now pleading with the Government that they will make legislation uniform, and have it applied to the whole kingdom as one system, instead of slicing it into quarters. I regret that the honourable Member for Peterborough has been muzzled by his leader. I saw the usual channels of communication opened from the Treasury Bench, and I noticed that the honourable Member subsided. That will be said in mitigation, perhaps, of his sins of commission when he comes before those whom he has to answer to for votes given in this House on various questions. You cannot make arguments to support you in dividing your legislation in the manner you are now doing, and I shall certainly vote, as I did in the English Act, in favour of the limitation, in order that this Conservative Government may save itself from its own follies, of tying its hands for all time, no matter how circumstances may change in the course of a few years. I submit that that is a perfectly consistent and a perfectly sound course to take. It is really true Conservatism, and my friends on this side of the House are advocating it largely on this ground. I shall support the Amendment which has been submitted to the House.
  MR. COGHILL: I rise to support the Amendment of the honourable Member for South Somerset. I cannot understand why this limitation is not accepted by the Government. It was put in the English Act, and I do not see why the same limitation should not apply to Ireland. I am not one of those who abuse the Irish landlords; on the contrary, I have great sympathy for them and think they have been exceedingly

  815
  badly treated in the past. In 1896 a most unnecessary Land Act was passed, by which the Irish landlords have been further plundered, but that is no reason, in my opinion, why the Government should make a proposal of this sort. I think it is most unfair, so far as England
  is concerned, and as the representative of an English town I take this opportunity of expressing my disapproval of the proposal.
  The House divided:—Ayes 42;. Noes 161.—(Division List No. 204.)

  AYES.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

  Richardson, J. (Durham)

  Billson, Alfred

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Brigg, John

  Jones, D. B. (Swansea)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Souttar, Robinson

  Brunner, Sir J. Tomlinson

  Lambert, George

  Ure, Alexander

  Burt, Thomas

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Caldwell, James

  Lloyd-George, David

  Williams, J. Carvell (Notts)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Logan, John William

  Wilson, J. (Durham, Mid)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  McKenna, Reginald

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Colville, John

  Maddison, Fred.

  Woodall, William

  Crombie, John William

  Maden, John Henry

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Strachey and Mr. Warner.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Price, Robert John

  Gold, Charles

  Reckitt, Harold James

  NOES.

  Aird, John

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H.

  Arnold, Alfred

  Daly, James

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

  Arrol, Sir William

  Dillon, John

  Hill, Sir Edward S. (Bristol)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Donelan, Captain

  Holland, Hon. Lionel R.

  Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Baird, John George A.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Johnstone, J. H. (Sussex)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manc'r)

  Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

  Kenyon, James

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Knowles, Lees

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A.H. Smith- (Hunts)

  Fellowes, Hon. A. Edward

  Lafone, Alfred

  Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin

  Field, William (Dublin)

  Lawson, J. Grant (Yorks)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  Bethell, Commander

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.

  Blake, Edward

  Flannery, Fortescue

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Sw'ns'a)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

  Flower, Ernest

  Loder, Gerald W. Erskine

  Brassey, Albert

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Fry, Lewis

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Carew, James Laurence

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  Lowe, Francis Willam

  Carmichael, Sir T. D. G.

  Gilhooly, James

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Godson, Sir Augustus F.

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  MacNeill, John Gordon Swift

  Cecil, E. (Hertford, E.)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E.

  McCalmont, Maj-Gn. (Ant'm N.)

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. G'rg's)

  McCalmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

  Goschen, G. J. (Sussex)

  McEwan, William

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  McKillop, James

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Malcolm, Ian

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Mandeville, J. Francis

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Milbank, Sir P. C. J.

  Colomb, Sir J. C. Ready

  Gunter, Colonel

  Milton, Viscount

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hammond, John (Carlow)

  Molloy, Bernard Charles

  Crean, Eugene

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

  Monk, Charles James

  Crilly, Daniel

  Hardy, Laurence

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Morris, Samuel

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)

  Murnaghan, George

  Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Murray, Col. W. (Bath)

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Waring, Col. Thomas

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Saunderson, Col. E. James

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S.

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Pinkerton, John

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worc'r, N.)

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C.

  Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Pollock, Harry Frederick

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Stanley, E. J. (Somerset)

  Wyndham, George

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Stock, James Henry

  Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

  Purvis, Robert

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 24, line 9, leave out 'poor rate and.'"—(Mr. Lambert.)
  MR. G. LAMBERT: The Amendment which I propose is one which strikes at the landlords' grant in this Bill, and it is that which I object to. Now, Sir, I think no one can convict the Liberal Members on this side of the House of unduly interfering with these Irish Debates. We are willing to allow the Irish Members to mould Irish legislation, and we support them in the Lobby, but when it comes to making use of British money—an illegitimate use of British money—I think it is time for us to contend for the interests of our constituencies. For my own part, I have no desire to limit a grant to Ireland, provided that it is well and properly expended, but to expend it upon landlords I have a very strong objection indeed. The Chief Secretary for Ireland, when he is discussing this clause, always is, I notice, not quite so delighted as he generally is, and I think it is because he has absolutely no reason whatever to urge for this proposal which he submits to the House. He has never given one single reason why the Irish landlords should be relieved of half their poor rate during the whole course of this Debate, and last night he begged for silence from the friends of this Bill. It is only, I think, about two months ago that the honourable and learned Member for North Louth bested that the Government should be silent and not answer the arguments used on this side of the House.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I never used the word argument because I never heard any.
  MR. LAMBERT: Well, can he trust the Government in this matter? Has he not sufficient confidence in the Chief Secretary? Well, Sir, the Chief Secretary for Ireland was good enough to say last night that this clause, this money for the Irish landlords, was accepted by the honourable Members for Ireland Well, I cannot understand how he can say this in the face of the declaration of the honourable Gentleman the Member for East Mayo, when he said last night that the Government told us this money was the price they had to pay for local government, and though they thought it a scandalous arrangement, they agreed to it rather than lose the Bill. How can the Chief Secretary, in the face of that, maintain that this is accepted by the Irish Members, when they say that it is a scandalous arrangement to pay that price in order that the Bill shall pass. He was good enough to tell us that the Liberal Front Bench will not oppose this grant to Ireland. I think the Chief Secretary again spoke without his book, because last night, on an Amendment which was considered by the Government to be one of vital importance, every Member of the Front Bench voted against it. Not only that, but the Leader of the Opposition, the Member for West Monmouthshire, said this was
  "hush money to keep the Irish landlord silent".
  in this matter, and allow the Bill to pass. Now I would ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland, does he imagine for one moment

  819
  that the Leader of the Opposition would vote for "hush" money to any section of the Irish landlords, to keep them quiet? I do think the Chief Secretary for Ireland must have been misinformed when he says that the Liberal Front Bench is in favour of the principle of this Amendment. The right honourable Gentleman tells us that this thing has been done over and over again, and that this very self-same question was brought before the House twice before—once in May, 1896, and again in May, 1897. Then the Government took absolutely diametrically opposite views to what they do to-day, and what they do now. In May, 1896, they rejected this by an enormous majority of 107, and only last year they again rejected it. Therefore, I say that the Chief Secretary cannot accuse us of bringing up matters outside the question over and over again, when the Government have proved themselves to be amenable to pressure in this respect, and they have given way to the Irish Members. I do not see why, if we continue our opposition long enough, they may not revert to their former frame of mind. I think they will, if we continue these Debates long enough, because I observe that in the last Division, we had a distinguished Unionist Member who voted with us, and I recollect that the Member for Stockport denounced this very proposal which is now submitted to the House, and he said that if he voted for it he should consider that he was "diddling" his constituents. The only Member on this side of the House who supports this proposal is the honourable Member for Islington. He said last night that he was ashamed to sit on these Liberal benches. Well, Sir, there is no compulsion for him to sit on these Liberal benches. This money will be stopped from going to the Irish landlords if this Amendment of mine is carried, and remember that if the proposal of the Government is adopted the money will come out of the pockets of the people of this country—out of the pockets of the people of Islington. By this clause, Mr. Speaker, large land-
  820
  owners not residing in Ireland, but residing in England—gentlemen like the Duke of Devonshire, Lord Londonderry, and Lord Lansdowne—will get enormous sums from this Bill. I would have asked the honourable Member for Islington a question had he been in his place, but he was wise enough to absent himself. I would have asked him how the people of Islington, who are amongst the poorest people in this country, would like to be taxed to the tune of something like £5 or £6 per head in order to increase the revenue of these noblemen who live in these splendid mansions and enjoy such princely incomes? Why, Sir, I do not doubt for one moment that if the honourable Member for Islington's constituents, or any other honourable Member's constituents on that side of the House, were asked to give an opinion on this subject, they would decide against it by a very large majority indeed. Now, Sir, the honourable Gentleman opposite has said that the clergy have a great grievance with regard to rating. I hope on this subject we shall hear the views of the honourable Member for Peterborough.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): I beg to claim that clause 42 be added to the Bill.
  MR. SPEAKER: It appears to me that an endeavour has been made to move a series of Amendments all raising practically the same points and supported by the same arguments, and under these circumstances I accept this Motion. I may say that the other Amendments in the name of the honourable Member for South Molton and in the name of the honourable Member for East Mayo are out of order.
  Question put—
  "That the Question be now put."
  The House divided:—Ayes 160; Noes 47.—(Division List No. 205.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Aird, John

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S.

  Arnold, Alfred

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Goschen, G. J. (Sussex)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

  Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Pinkerton, John

  Baird, John George A.

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Pollock, Harry Frederick

  Balfour, Rt. Hn. A. J. (Manc'r)

  Gunter, Colonel

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W. (Leeds)

  Hammond, John (Carlow)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

  Purvis, Robert

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith- (Hunts)

  Hardy, Laurence

  Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

  Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin

  Haslett, Sir J. H.

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  Bethell, Commander

  Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)

  Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

  Russell, Gen. F. S. (Chelt'm)

  Brassey, Albert

  Hill, Sir Edward S. (Bristol)

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Brodrick, Rt. Hn. St. John

  Holland, Hon. Lionel R.

  Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)

  Carew, James Laurence

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Saunderson, Col. E. James

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Johnstone, John H. (Sussex)

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Kenyon, James

  Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

  Knowles, Lees

  Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Lafone, Alfred

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Lawrence, Sir E Durning (Corn.)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  Stanley, E. J. (Somerset)

  Colomb, Sir J. C. Ready

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.

  Stock, James Henry

  Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Sw'ns'a)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Loder, Gerald W. Erskine

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath.)

  Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverp'l)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Waring, Col. Thomas

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Daly, James

  McCalmont, Maj-Gn. (Ant'm N)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)

  Denny, Colonel

  McCalmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  McIver, Sir Lewis

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Doogan, P. C.

  McKillop, James

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wilson, J. W. (Worc'r, N.)

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Milbank, Sir P. C. J.

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

  Milton, Viscount

  Wylie, Alexander

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Monk, Charles James

  Wyndham, George

  Fellowes, Hon. A. Edward

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

  Field, William (Dublin)

  Morris, Samuel

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Murnaghan, George

  FitzWygram, Gen. Sir F.

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Flannery, Fortescue

  Murray, Col. W. (Bath)

  Flower, Ernest

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Fry, Lewis

  Nicholson, William Graham

  NOES.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

  Billson, Alfred

  Colville, John

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H.

  Brigg, John

  Crombie, John William

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Jones, D. B. (Swansea)

  Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Caldwell, James

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)

  Cameron, Robert (Durham)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Gold, Charles

  Lloyd-George, David

  822

  823

  Logan, John William

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Maddison, Fred.

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Williams, J. Carvell (Notts)

  Maden, John Henry

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Souttar, Robinson

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Woodall, William

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Strachey, Edward

  Price, Robert John

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Lambert and Mr. Broadhurst.

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Ure, Alexander

  Richardson, J. (Durham)

  Warner, Thomas C. T.

  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 182; Noes 43.—(Division List No. 206.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Fellowes, Hon. A. Edward

  MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu'ns C.)

  Aird, John

  Field, William (Dublin)

  McCalmont, Mj.-Gn. (Ant'm, N)

  Arnold, Alfred

  Fisher, William Hayes

  McCalmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Arrol, Sir William

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  McIver, Sir Lewis

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  FitzWygram, General Sir F.

  McKillop, James

  Bagot, Capt. J. FitzRoy

  Flannery, Fortescue

  Malcolm, Ian

  Balcarres, Lord

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Mandeville, J. Francis

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manc'r.)

  Flower, Ernest

  Milbank, Sir P. C. J.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Milton, Viscount

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Frv. Lewis

  Molloy, Bernard Charles

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith- (Hunts)

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  Monckton, Edward Philip

  Bathurst, Hon. A. Benjamin

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  Monk, Charles James

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l)

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Bethell, Commander

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

  Morris, Samuel

  Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Brassey, Albert

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Murnaghan, George

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Carew, James Laurence

  Greville, Captain

  Murray, Col. W. (Bath)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Gunter, Colonel

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbysh.)

  Hammond, John (Carlow)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

  Northcote, Hon. Sir H. S.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Hardy, Laurence

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  O'Malley, William

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)

  Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H.

  Pinkerton, John

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C.

  Colomb, Sir J. C. Ready

  Hill, Sir Edward S. (Bristol)

  Pollock, Harry Frederick

  Colston, C. E. H. Athole

  Holland, Hon. Lionel Raleigh

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

  Johnstone, John H. (Sussex)

  Purvis, Robert

  Crean, Eugene

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

  Crilly, Daniel

  Kenyon, James

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Knowles, Lees

  Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

  Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Lafone, Alfred

  Roche, Hon. J. (E. Kerry)

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

  Lawrence Sir E Durning- (Corn.)

  Russell, Gen. F. S. (Chelt'm)

  Dalbiac, Col. Philip Hugh

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.

  Saunderson, Col. E. James

  Daly, James

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Sw'ns'a)

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Denny, Colonel

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Dillon, John

  Loder, Gerald W. Erskine

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l)

  Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Stanley, E. J. (Somerset)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Stock, James Henry

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)

  Wyndham, George

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh., N.)

  Waring, Col. Thomas

  Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Wylie, Alexander

  NOES.

  Billson, Alfred

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Brigg, John

  Jones, D. B. (Swansea)

  Souttar, Robinson

  Brunner, Sir J. Tomlinson

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Caldwell, James

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumberland)

  Strachey, Edward

  Cameron, Robert (Durham)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Logan, John William

  Ure, Alexander

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Maddison, Fred.

  Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

  Maden, John Henry

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Colville, John

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Williams, John C. (Notts)

  Crombie, John William

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Price, Robert John

  Woodall, William

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Richardson, J. (Durham)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Lambert and Mr. Broadhurst.

  Gold, Charles

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: On a point of order, I have a question of privilege to raise with regard to three Members in the last Division. The honourable Member for Hunts, I understand, is one of those who will receive a large sum of money under the clause he voted for in the last Division. The honourable Member, I understand, will receive £800 a year under the clause he has voted for, and that seems to me to be a matter for a point of order. The honourable Member for North Armagh is another Member in the same position.
  COLONEL SAUNDERSON: Hear, hear!
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I am glad the honourable and gallant Member admits it. There is nothing like pleading guilty if you want a light sentence. The honourable Member for Cambridge is also in the same position, and I submit, Mr. Speaker, that these votes ought to be disallowed on the ground of personal interest—direct personal interest of a pecuniary character. We had a discussion with regard to the votes of some railway directors some time ago, and you, Mr. Speaker, left it to the judgment of the House to say whether the votes should be disallowed—whether the interest they had in the passing of a Bill in which their company was concerned was sufficient to exclude their votes. I
  826
  submit that this case is a much stronger one. In the case where you allowed the House to adjudicate with regard to the votes there was no pecuniary direct interest. It was simply a case in which the corporation of which the Members concerned were trustees and managers seeking for enlarged powers. But, still, you then, Sir, allowed the House to discuss the question whether the interests were sufficiently direct and personal to justify the House in declining to allow the votes. I submit that this case is similar to the case of the Mombasa directors, who voted on the question whether a large sum of money should be granted to develop the resources of the district under their control. But even in that case the money did not go into their own pockets, except indirectly. But there was a personal interest, and although the question was a question of a public character the House was allowed to decide the validity of the votes.
  COLONEL SAUNDERSON: I rise to a point of order. I wish to ask whether it is in order for the honourable Member to make a speech on Mombasa on an Irish question?
  MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member is entitled to assist me by quoting precedents, but I quite well remember

  827
  the Mombasa case, and there is no need for him to give me particulars.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Then, Sir, I will not dwell upon that, but still I am simply quoting precedents. I put it to you as a point of order, and will say no more.
  MR. SPEAKER: The Rule of the House is well understood, that there must be a direct pecuniary interest of a private and particular, and not of a public and general nature; and where the question before the House is of a public and general nature and incidentally involves pecuniary interest to a class which includes Members of the House, they are not prevented by the Rule of the House from voting. If it were otherwise, it is obvious that on any proposal for altering the law of rating anyone who was either a landlord or ratepayer might be prevented from voting. It appears to me that in the present case no question of privilege arises.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I beg to move on clause 43—
  "Page 24, line 36, after 'valuation,' to insert, 'made in accordance with the prescribed rules, and on taking into account any exceptional circumstances which appear to the Board to have caused a variation for the average."
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Will the Rules be laid on the Table of the House?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: That cannot be done this Session.
  MR. LAMBERT: What are the prescribed Rules? It is an extremely bad proof of the Bill. For my own part, I think these prescribed Rules might have the effect of increasing the grant to be made by England to Ireland, and therefore I, as an English Member, am bound to protect the interests of my own constituency. I shall, unless these prescribed Rules are given to us with something more like clearness than the Chief Secretary has given us, take exception to the introduction of this clause, because it may have the effect of doing that which I most strongly object to—giving more money to the Irish landlords. Is the English precedent to be followed—which was one of the worst that could be intro-
  828
  duced—where we gave a certain amount of money, and we were forced to give it irrespective, altogether as to whether it represented the proper amount of expenditure?
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I think the case of the English Rules is the strongest possible argument against this Amendment. Under that Bill we said it would work badly, and our experience in that case proves what would ensue in this case. My honourable and learned Friend the Member for North Louth asked would the Rules be laid on the Table of the House, and the Chief Secretary could not undertake that they would.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Not this Session.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: What happened in the former case was, you had these Rules laid on the Table of the House, but they laid so late that you could not discuss them except by general consent, and they were carried through in spite of our protests. But I object to these words upon very much larger grounds. I object to this legislation by prescribed Rules. According to the machinery of this House, we have to rush a Bill through Parliament simply because there is no time for ample discussion. I object to it because every Bill introduced into this House by the present Government is practically handed over to the legislation of Government Departments, either in Dublin Castle or Whitehall. That is a form of legislation which a democratic country will not approve of You hand over to officials in Dublin Castle or Whitehall powers which ought to be left to this House. I venture to suggest that in some cases those officials practically override the decisions of the House of Commons. The Treasury undoubtedly overrules the decisions of the House of Commons. I do not know whether there is any Vote in the Estimates or not, but we only discussed it for about half an hour in Committee; but, at any rate, there is no practical control over any action of this Board of Valuation in Ireland. Here you have got in England a Local Government Board which is probably the most efficient Department we have got, and an excellent staff. But even with such a staff as that, with splendid men at the

  829
  head of it and the best possible legal advisers, there are all sorts of difficulties and defects, and, as my honourable Friend the Member for South Molton has said, things are dealt with there in a rough, ready, and ruthless way, with the result that one portion did exceedingly well, and the next did very badly. You pilfer one parish in order to endow another. You make these rules, and the Local Government Board cut their garment to the measure of their cloth. I say that these rules are intended to burke discussion, and that is the whole point of it. And why is it? Is it because the House of Commons is incompetent to deal with the question? What does it involve? These rules involve a reconstruction of the machinery of local taxation, and you have the new basis of local taxation in Ireland. You say henceforth that the land shall not be liable for half the rates. There will be all sorts of readjustments to be made, and it will upset the whole machinery of local rating in Ireland. At any rate, if this Bill in its operation produces the same results in Ireland as a similar Bill has done in England and Wales you will have complaints from every rural parish in the whole country when it is passed that it has upset the whole machinery of local rating. The machinery of local rating is not perfect as it is, and I do not know that the circumstances are better in Ireland than in this country. If it is, it is the only law which will be in that position. Therefore you propose to reconstruct your machinery, and, instead of leaving it to this House, you say that it is to be done by somebody else. The question is whether this is to be done by the Board of Valuation in Ireland.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No; by the Local Government Board.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Well, if the Local Government Board in Ireland is anything like the Local Government Board in England, it will be very well done. But that Board is probably like every other department in Ireland. I think it is a monstrous thing that we should in every Bill which is introduced, whether in a rating Bill or a Land Bill or an Education Bill or a Local Government Bill, or even a Disestablishment Bill, in every Bill which is introduced into this
  830
  House, especially by the present Government, it contains a provision of this kind which delegates matters of the gravest possible importance to Government Departments over which we have no control—that is, no real, substantial, or direct control. I protest against it, and I mean to vote against it.
  MR. BROADHURST: We are at a great disadvantage in discussing this Bill, because practically we have two Bills. We have the Bill originally introduced and the new Bill, or what amounts almost to a new Bill by the large number of new clauses and important Amendments made by the Chief Secretary for Ireland since the Committee stage. It is all very well for the Chief Secretary to put it in this way. We are practically asked to sign a blank cheque. We are asked to agree to an Amendment which provides for the issuing of rules regulating the assessment of the poor rate, and we have no conception of what the rules are to be. The rules may probably be much more important than the Bill, and if our experience in England is to be followed by the same experience of the working of this Act in Ireland, the rules are more important than the Bill itself. And yet we are asked to pass this Bill on the promise of the Chief Secretary that the rules will be laid on the Table either this Session or at some other time when it is altogether too late for the House to have any control or authority in the matter. What the Chief Secretary would do wisely would be to adjourn this clause until he has made up his mind what his rules are to be and what they are to be like. Let him get the rules drafted and printed and submitted to the House, and then we should be in a position to discuss this clause and assist him in amending it in a reasonable and just manner. Now, we in England are people who have to pay a portion of this money to honourable Gentlemen sitting on the opposite side, and although it is very nice to do this for them, it is not so very agreeable to us. If the money is to be filched from us for this purpose, then let us know what the basis of valuation is to be and what the rules are to be to regulate that basis. I do trust the Chief Secretary, who is usually very reasonable in these matters, will see how important it is in his own

  831
  interests that he should adjourn this clause to a later stage, in order that we might see the rules which are so important a factor in the working out of this 43rd clause. If he does that we shall welcome his Motion, and agree to assist him in getting through with the clause.
  MR. CALDWELL: The Amendment of the Chief Secretary seems to me to be what the Bill provides for in clause 42, that is the total poor rate in the standard year which has been levied in Ireland is to be the amount of the Imperial contribution.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The amount stated to have been raised.
  MR. CALDWELL: That is the 42nd section as it stands. To take your Bill with the Amendment it means this, that you are—
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The honourable Member must confine himself to the Amendment.
  MR. CALDWELL: The effect of the Amendment will be this. You must take the amount that has been raised in the standard year in respect of poor rates and county cess, and that is the amount.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The only effect of the Amendment will be that rules will have to be laid down as to the way in which the Local Government Board will avail themselves of it. The Amendment is not to increase the power of the Local Government Board.
  MR. CALDWELL: But the Amendment undoubtedly increases the power of the Local Government Board to grant more money, because the Amendment says—
  "Taking into account any exceptional circumstances which appear to the Board to have caused a variation from the average."
  The variation may be more or it may be less. It may be either one or the other. The effect will be this: in some cases you might get more money, and in others less.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: That power will be possessed by the Local Government Board under the clause as it stood before.
  MR. CALDWELL: I apprehend the whole scope of the Act is this: that Ireland is to take what has been bonâ fide raised in respect of poor rate and county cess. The effect will be this, that you are going to give a latitude to the Local Government Board that they may increase the amount that they actually raised by the poor rate or county cess, and thereby you are handing over to this Local Government Board by rules you are to prescribe according to the way that you may pass these rules, how they are to interpret them. I consider in the case of the English Act the practical working is simply this: they take into calculation the amount ascertained, and to ascertain that amount you must have machinery to do it. But what was certified as ascertained in the case of England and Scotland was this: it was the amount that was bonâ fide raised in England and Scotland for this purpose, and there was no latitude as you are seeking to establish here.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: It is just the same in Scotland.
  MR. WARNER: The right honourable Gentleman says that this is merely a drafting Amendment. That is what I must object to, because it means the adoption of a principle which will have to be considered by English as well as by Irish Members.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: It is a little more than a drafting Amendment.
  MR. WARNER: I think this will have a considerable effect upon the Act, and I shall certainly for one vote against this Amendment. I think it will have a very evil effect.
  MR. STRACHEY: I hope the Government will not strictly follow the precedent adopted by them when they passed the rules under the Agricultural Act for England and Scotland; at the same time I hope the Government will not adopt that precedent. As regards the English rules what the Government did was, that they simply laid them on the table for one day. The net result was that we had only one day to consider them, and I do say that if this House had had an opportunity of discussing those rules before they finally became law it would

  833
  have been the means of preventing a great many of the difficulties which have arisen, and a great deal of the trouble of the assessment committee would have been avoided. When I say this I speak about what I know of the Assessment Committee, on which I sit, for we have had a great amount of correspondence with the Local Government Board, and if the Local Government Board had had the opportunity and the advantage of having had a full discussion upon these rules in this House, it would not have given occasion for all the difficulties and all the trouble that has arisen. Therefore, in the interests of making these rules more practical, I venture to ask the Chief Secretary to add to his Amendment the following words—
  "Such rules shall not come into operation until they have been laid for ten days on the Table of both Houses of Parliament."
  MR. LAMBERT: Personally, I perfectly agree with my honourable Friend below me. We have had some experience of the working of the Rules of the English Act, and I have always voted against these powers being given to Irish boards, and I must heartily support my honourable Friend in his Amendment to bring these Rules under the purview of Parliament. If these Rules are brought before Parliament we shall know what we are doing, but if they are not they may be
  drafted in Ireland and forced upon the Irish boards and local authorities, and a most unsatisfactory state of things will be arrived at.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: So far as we are concerned, if the Government are prepared to withdraw this Amendment, we have no objection.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Perhaps it would be the best thing to do.
  MR. FLYNN: I hope the Government will not withdraw this Amendment. It will be of great use, and will neither decrease nor increase the amount of the grant.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I do not object to the clause at all; I simply oppose it being done in this way. It is a most malicious practice and a growing practice of legislating by Departmental Rules.
  Amendment proposed to the proposed Amendment—
  "That there be added at the end these words—
  "Such rules shall not come into operation until they have been laid for ten days upon the Table of both Houses of Parliament."
  The House divided:—Ayes 58; Noes 194.—(Division List No. 207.)

  AYES.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Gold, Charles

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Allison, Robert Andrew

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Souttar, Robinson

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Billson, Alfred

  Holburn, J. G.

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Brigg, John

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jones, D. B. (Swansea)

  Ure, Alexander

  Brunner, Sir J. Tomlinson

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Wallace, Robert (Edin.)

  Burt, Thomas

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Warner, Thomas C. T.

  Caldwell, James

  Lloyd-George, David

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)

  Logan, John William

  Williams, John C. (Notts)

  Cameron, Robert (Durham)

  Maddison, Fred.

  Wills, Sir William Henry

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Maden, John Henry

  Wilson, Fred. W. (Norfolk)

  Cawley, Frederick

  Norton, Capt. Cecil William

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Clough, Walter Owen

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Woodall, William

  Colville, John

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Crombie, John William

  Price, Robert John

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Reckitt, Harold James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Strachey and Mr. Lambert.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Richardson, J. (Durham)

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir Alex. F.

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  Morris, Samuel

  Aird John

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Arnold Alfred

  Gilhooly, James

  Murnaghan, George

  Arrol Sir William

  Godson, Sir Augustus F.

  Murray, Col. W. (Bath)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Bagot Capt. J. FitzRoy

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir J. E.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Baird, John George A.

  Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. G'rg's)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Balcarres, Lord

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  O'Brien, J. F. X. (Cork)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manc'r)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds)

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Greville, Captain

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A.H. Smith- (Hunts)

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

  Bathurst Hon. A. Benjamin

  Gunter, Colonel

  Pinkerton, John

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l)

  Hammond, John (Carlow)

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C.

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

  Pollock, Harry Frederick

  Bowles T. G. (King's Lynn)

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Brassey, Albert

  Hardy, Laurence

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. Edward

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Purvis, Robert

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)

  Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Cecil, E. (Hertford, E.)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H.

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Hill, Sir Edward S. (Bristol)

  Robinson, Brooke

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Holland, Hon. L. Raleigh

  Roche, Hon. J. (E. Kerry)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Houston, R. P.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Howell, William Tudor

  Russell, Gen. F. S. (Chelt'm)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Johnstone, J. H. (Sussex)

  Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)

  Colomb, Sir J. C. Ready

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Colston, C. E. H. Athole

  Kenrick, William

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Kenyon, James

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Crean, Eugene

  Knowles, Lees

  Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

  Crilly, Daniel

  Lafone, Alfred

  Smith, A. H. (Christchurch)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Lawrence, Sir E. Durning- (Corn.)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  Cross, H. Shepherd (Bolton)

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

  Stanley, E. J. (Somerset)

  Cruddas William Donaldson

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

  Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal)

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.

  Stock, James Henry

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Sw'ns'a)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Dalbiac, Colonel Philip Hugh

  Loder, Gerald W. Erskine

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Daly, James

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uny.)

  Denny, Colonel

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Waring, Col. Thomas

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Doogan, P. C.

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

  Drucker, A.

  MacDonnell, Dr. M.A. (Qn's C.)

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  MacNeill, John Gordon S.

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

  McCalmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  McCartan, Michael

  Wilson, J. W. (Worc'Sh., N.)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  McEwan, William

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks)

  Fellowes, Hon. A. Edward

  McIver, Sir Lewis

  Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  McKillop, James

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Mandeville, J. Francis

  Wylie, Alexander

  FitzWygram, Gen. Sir F.

  Milbank, Sir P. C. J.

  Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

  Flannery, Fortescue

  Milton, Viscount

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Young, Commander (Berks, E.)

  Flower, Ernest

  Molloy, Bernard Charles

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Monckton, Edward Philip

  Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

  Monk, Charles James

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  More, Robert Jasper

  Garfit, William

  Morgan, Hn. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  The original Amendment was then put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 188; Noes 50.—(Division List No. 208.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  More, Robert Jasper

  Aird, John

  Garfit, William

  Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Arnold, Alfred

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  Morris, Samuel

  Arrol, Sir William

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Gilhooly, James

  Murnaghan, George

  Bagot, Captain J. FitzRoy

  Godson, Sir Augustus F.

  Murray, Col. W. (Bath)

  Baird, John George A.

  Gordon, Hon. John E.

  Newdigate, Francis A.

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manc'r)

  Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. G'rg's)

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  O'Brien, J. F. X. (Cork)

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Graham, Henry Robert

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A.H. Smith- (Hunts)

  Gray, Ernest (W. Ham)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

  Blundell, Colonel Henry-

  Greville, Captain

  Pinkerton, John

  Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C.

  Brassey, Albert

  Gunter, Colonel

  Pollock, Harry Frederick

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hammond, John (Carlow)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Carew, James Laurence

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. E.

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Hardy, Laurence

  Purvis, Robert

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Haslett, Sir James H.

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H.

  Robinson, Brooke

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Hermon-Hodge, R. T.

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hill, Sir E. S. (Bristol)

  Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham)

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Holland, Hon. Lionel R.

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Houston, R. P.

  Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Howell, William Tudor

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Colomb, Sir John C. R.

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Colston, C. E. H. Athole

  Johnstone, J. H. (Sussex)

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

  Kenrick, William

  Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

  Crean, Eugene

  Kenyon, James

  Smith, A. H. (Christchurch)

  Crilly, Daniel

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Knowles, Lees

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Lafone, Alfred

  Stanley, E. J. (Somerset)

  Cross, H. S. (Bolton)

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

  Cruddas, William Donaldson

  Lawrence, Sir E. Durning- (Corn.)

  Stock, James Henry

  Curran, Thomas B. (Donegal)

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Dalbiac, Colonel Philip H.

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Sw'ns'a)

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uny.)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  Daly, James

  Loder, Gerald Walter E.

  Waring, Colonel Thomas

  Denny, Colonel

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Drucker, A.

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh., N.)

  Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

  MacDonnell, Dr. M.A. (Qn's C.)

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks)

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  McCalmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)

  Fellowes, Hon. Allwyn E.

  McCartan, Michael

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Field, William (Dublin)

  McEwan, William

  Wylie, Alexander

  Fisher, William Hayes

  McKillop, James

  Wyndham-Quin, Major W. H.

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Mandeville, J. Francis

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  FitzWygram, General Sir F.

  Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J.

  Young, Comm. (Berks, E.)

  Flannery, Fortescue

  Milton, Viscount

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Flower, Ernest

  Molloy, Bernard Charles

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Monckton, Edward Philip

  Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

  Monk, Charles James

  NOES.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)

  Allison, Robert Andrew

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Cameron, Robert (Durham)

  Billson, Alfred

  Burt, Thomas

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Brigg, John

  Caldwell, James

  Cawley, Frederick

  838

  839

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Clough, Walter Owen

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Colville, John

  Logan, John William

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Crombie, John William

  Maddison, Fred.

  Ure, Alexander

  Davies, M. Vaughan- (Cardigan)

  Maden, John Henry

  Warner, Thomas C. T.

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Mappin, Sir Frederick T.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Norton, Captain Cecil William

  Williams, John C. (Notts)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wills, Sir William Henry

  Gold, Charles

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

  Price, Robert John

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Holburn, J. G.

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Woodall, William

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Richardson, J. (Durham)

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Joicey, Sir James

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Strachey and Mr. Lambert.

  Jones, D. B. (Swansea)

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Souttar, Robinson

  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 25, line 22, after 'raised,' insert 'and any town which is constituted an urban sanitary district, or which, being an urban sanitary district, is added to a rural sanitary district, shall, if the order for each constitution or addition was made before the end of six months after the passing of this Act, whether made before or after that passing, and whether confirmed or taking effect before or after the end of such six months, be treated as having been so constituted or added, as the case may be, during the standard year.'"—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I submit that this Amendment is out of order, and, in fact, it will increase the amount of the grant. The effect of it would be that the urban districts converted into rural districts would receive grants which they would not have otherwise received, and it would therefore increase the amount of the grant.
  MR. SPEAKER: The effect of this clause would be to give a grant to land which would not otherwise receive it, and therefore cannot be sustained.
  MR. CLANCY: Upon a point of order, I do not think it would increase the grant at all.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I think it might have the effect of increasing the grant, and therefore I will take it in Committee.
  On the return of the SPEAKER, after the usual interval, the House resumed the consideration of the Bill, as amended, in Committee.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 24, line 41, leave out 'and off any other hereditaments.'"—(Mr. Strachey.)
  MR. STRACHEY: My object in moving the Amendment is merely to ask for an explanation as to why it was necessary that there should be a separate valuation. I cannot see the necessity, but, if a necessity exists, I should like to know why "hereditaments" are included in this clause.
  MR. ATKINSON: The reason for the separate valuation is that only the agricultural land gets the grant. In order to find out what is the standard rate, you must find out how much rates are raised out of agricultural land, and how much out of hereditaments.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I cannot help observing that the speech of the learned Attorney General is characteristic of most of the speeches we have had from the Government benches. I think a tactical blunder has been made in carrying through this Bill. All my honourable Friend wanted to know was why we should have the grant assessed upon "other hereditaments" as well as upon agricultural land. I am not aware that this is in the English Bill; I rather think it is not. In the English Bill, I believe, it was only deemed necessary that the amount should be taken as having been raised off agricultural land That is all that is required, and why it should be raised "off any other hereditaments" I cannot understand. I hope my honourable Friend will go to a Division as a matter of principle.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 207; Noes 68.—(Division List No. 209.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, W. (Cork, N. E.)

  Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

  Murray, Col. W. (Bath)

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Newdigate, Francis A.

  Aird, John

  Garfit, William

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Arnold, Alfred

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Arrol, Sir William

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  O'Brien, J. F. X. (Cork)

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Gilhooly, James

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Bagot, Captain J. FitzRoy

  Godson, Sir Augustus F.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary)

  Baird, John George A.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)

  Balcarres, Lord

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Parnell, John Howard

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hunts)

  Gray, Ernest (W. Ham)

  Pease, Arthur (Darlington)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Pender, Sir James

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l)

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Philpotts, Captain Arthur

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Gunter, Colonel

  Pinkerton, John

  Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

  Hammond, John (Carlow)

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C.

  Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

  Pollock, Harry Frederick

  Brassey, Albert

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Hardy, Laurence

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Carew, James Laurence

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Carlile, William Walter

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. E.

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)

  Purvis, Robert

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H.

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Hill, Sir E. Stock (Bristol)

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

  Houston, R. P.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Howell, William Tudor

  Roche, Hon. J. (E. Kerry)

  Chelsea, Viscount

  Hughes, Colonel Edwin

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

  Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenh'm)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Johnstone, John H. (Sussex)

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Kenrick, William

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Colomb, Sir John C. R.

  Kenyon, James

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Colston, C. E. H. Athole

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Knowles, Lees

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

  Lafone, Alfred

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Courtney, Rt. Hon. L. H.

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Smith, A. H. (Christchurch)

  Crean, Eugene

  Lawrence Sir E. Durning-(Corn.)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Crilly, Daniel

  Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

  Stanley, H. M. (Lambeth)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

  Cross, H. S. (Bolton)

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Sw'ns'a)

  Stock, James Henry

  Cruddas, William Donaldson

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Curran, T. B. (Donegal)

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l)

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Thorburn, Walter

  Dalbiac, Colonel Philip H.

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Waring, Colonel Thomas

  Daly, James

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Denny, Colonel

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)

  Dillon, John

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu's C.)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  MacNeill, John Gordon S.

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  McCalmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers

  McCartan, Michael

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Drucker, A.

  McIver, Sir Lewis

  Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh., N.)

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  McKillop, James

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks)

  Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

  Malcolm, Ian

  Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Mandeville, J. Francis

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Melville, Beresford V.

  Wylie, Alexander

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.

  Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J.

  Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

  Field, William (Dublin)

  Milton, Viscount

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Finlay, Sir Robert B.

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Young, Comm. (Berks, E.)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Molloy, Bernard Charles

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Monckton, Edward Philip

  FitzWygram, General Sir F.

  Monk, Charles James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Flannery, Fortescue

  More, Robert Jasper

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Morris, Samuel

  Flower, Ernest

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Murnaghan, George

  842

  843

  NOES.

  Allan, W. (Gateshead)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Billson, Alfred

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Brigg, John

  Johnson-Ferguson, J. E.

  Souttar, Robinson

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Joicey, Sir James

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Burt, Thomas

  Lambert, George

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Caldwell, James

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Ure, Alexander

  Cameron, Robert (Durham)

  Logan, John William

  Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)

  Cawley, Frederick

  McEwan, William

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Maddison, Fred.

  Warner, Thomas C. T.

  Clough, Walter Owen

  Maden, John Henry

  Wayman, Thomas

  Colville, John

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Crombie, John William

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Williams, John C. (Notts)

  Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

  Palmer, Sir Charles M.

  Wills, Sir William Henry

  Davitt, Michael

  Perks, Robert William

  Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk)

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Price, Robert John

  Woodall, William

  Gold, Charles

  Reckitt, Harold James

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Richardson, J. (Durham)

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

  Rickett, J. Compton

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Strachey and Mr. Lloyd-George.

  Holburn, J. G.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shaw, C. E. (Stafford)

  Amendment proposed—
  "To omit sub-section 5, viz., 'Where by virtue of any order respecting the construction of an urban district any agricultural land in a rural district becomes included within the boundaries of that urban district the sum payable out of the agricultural grant in respect of union and district charges raised over such rural district shall be reduced by a sum proportionate to the rateable value in the standard financial year of that agricultural land, and the amount of such reduction shall be accumulated in the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account, and be applied in such manner as Parliament directs; but the amount of agricultural grant payable to the council of the county in respect of county at large charges shall not be diminished.'"—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I beg to move the Amendment. This sub-section disposes of the agricultural grant in cases of the extension of an urban boundary or the constitution of a new urban district. The House has already decided on a different method of apportioning the agricultural grant in that case, and, if the sub-section is retained, the Bill will be inconsistent.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: This is a point we contested on the English Bill. I object altogether to the payment of money in respect of land in an urban district. It is practically paying for accommodation land. Accommodation land in England and Ireland is pretty much the same. I know a small town with a popula-
  844
  tion of 1,500 inhabitants, where land is let at £3 or £4 an acre, and I say it is monstrous that money which was devoted to the relief of distress should be paid straight into the pocket of the owner of land who is receiving £3 or £4 an acre in respect of it. The landowner benefits in two ways. First of all, he benefits by the fact that his land is in an urban district; and, secondly, he benefits because he can charge practically any price he likes for his land; so the capital value of his land is enormously increased. Supposing, under this particular clause, you take land in a district where the rent is, say, £5 an acre. Your poor tenement holder gets no relief at all, but the holder in the district is relieved to the extent of half his rates—he gets his proportion of the extra fivepence. [A laugh.] This may be very amusing to those who receive it, but it is not so amusing to those who pay it. Under these circumstances I oppose the Amendment.
  MR. SPEAKER: It is out of order to retain the sub-section in the Bill, because the new clause, which the right honourable Gentleman previously moved, is really in substitution of this subsection.
  Question put.
  Amendment agreed to.
  Amendment proposed—
  "To omit sub-section 8, viz.: 'Provisional certificates may, if it is thought necessary, be given for enabling the first payments under this Act to and out of the Local Taxation (Ireland) Account to be made before sufficient information has been obtained to enable final certificates to be given."—(Mr. Warner.)
  MR. WARNER: I beg to move the Amendment. I think it is an absolutely unnecessary subsection, will tend to complicate matters between local bodies, and can serve no object, because people will pay money which they will never be able to get back
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The honourable Member is wrong.
  MR. LAMBERT: I rise to support the Amendment. I objected to the principle embodied in the clause in the English Bill, and I still more strongly object to it in Ireland. Under this clause, payments may be made under the Act before sufficient information has been obtained to enable final certificates to be given. I object to payments being made out of the British Exchequer, upon insufficient information, for the purpose of paying landlord rates in Ireland. It is a very good thing that English Members have begun to take an intelligent interest in this Bill, because, if they did not, it seems to me that it would be in the power of the right honourable Gentleman to give what certificate he pleased, and to relieve the rates to any extent he thought proper. This, I suppose, may be regarded as the principle of "killing Home Rule by kindness," but it is not fair to the British Exchequer, and I object in the strongest way, as I objected in the case of the English Bill, to any payments being made upon certificates based upon insufficient information. If the information is not sufficient, payments should not be made; but if it is sufficient, payment should be made. That a body should have the power to distribute the British taxpayers' money upon insufficient information is one of the most monstrous proposals that could be inserted in an Act of Parliament. Now, Sir, my honourable Friend having moved to omit this section, I shall most certainly support him in the interests of my own constituency, and in the interests of good government, and I will not be a
  846
  party to placing under the control of this board the distribution of our money.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: There is no reason at all for this if every local official supplies every information that is necessary. I have no doubt at all that one of the first things to be done under this Bill will be to send out forms to every parish, barony, and county in Ireland, and they will be filled up by the clerks down there. Supposing some of these officials do not do their duty, through negligence, I do not see why the Exchequer should be penalised because of the carelessness of these people. The men responsible for these officials are those who have appointed them, and I do not see why they should profit by the inadequacy of their own appointments. It is perfectly true what was said by the Chief Secretary that this happened in the case of the English Bill, but it is equally true that we opposed it very strenuously. We object to these certificates being made without adequate information, and consequently they must be wrong, and involve a great charge upon the Exchequer. There is nothing here that will provide for a refunding of any money which is paid over to this Department over and above that which is prescribed for by the official certificate to be due. How can they provide for this unless they receive proper information from the district. They would have to look up the book of the honourable Member for Islington or some document of that kind. That seems to me to be the only authority which the Government have as regards finance. Let them look up the book of the honourable Member for Islington, and they will see that the parish of Ballyhooley has given no return at all, although it shows that they pay so much rates. The result will be that they will probably make the rate upon a wrong basis. I want to know what protection there is in this Bill against this sort of thing? How are you going to recover from that particular parish the deficiency, supposing that parish had paid £1,000, and the official certificate discovered that it was only £550. Next year you are to retain that sum which will be discovered officially to be due. Here you have got the principle that the Government are to proceed upon inadequate information.

  847
  That is their general policy, but I do not see why it should be embodied in an Act of Parliament. If they do it in China, I do not see why they should do it in Ireland. I object to issuing certificates involving public money upon inadequate information. Now there are only two ways in which these certificates can be issued. There will either be some defect in the information of the local officials down there, or some defect in the Local Government Board in Ireland. In England we have got a first-rate staff, but I do not know what staff we have got in Ireland, or whether it is sufficient to cope with the circumstances of the case. There will be a great deal of extra work thrown upon the officials of the Local Government Board in Ireland, and let them do what the Local Government Board in England did—increase their staff, and increase their hours of labour. There is no reason why they should not. There is another matter, Mr. Speaker, which differentiates this Bill from the English Bill, and makes it less necessary than ever that you should introduce a thing of this kind with regard to the Irish Bill. With regard to the English Bill, the term commenced on the 1st of March. The Bill was discussed only at a late hour of the Session, and did not go through until a few weeks off the end of the Session, and the rules were only passed a few days before the prorogation. The Local Government Board had to deal with licences throughout England and Wales, and they had an enormous work thrown upon them. There was some reason to say, in that case, that a Provisional Order ought to suffice, because it might be said that the returns would not have been dealt with. The Bill commences on the 1st of June next year, and it is two or three months later. Then, again, in Ireland you are dealing with a smaller country, with fewer parishes, and fewer interests, and you have your country already mapped out. The whole thing has been parcelled out beforehand, and money has been spent upon this before the House of Commons has even voted it. Here you have the whole thing practically fastened down, and if in the case of England you have exceptionally few Provisional Orders where you had more parishes to deal with, and where you had less time
  848
  to dispose of all the enormous material that had to be impartially administered and arranged, why should it not be done in the case of Ireland, a country which is very much smaller? Now, our past experience of Irish finance is that it is very dangerous to leave unlimited powers in the hands of any Government Department to deal with. I do not think that in these matters Ireland is as well organised as Great Britain is, and if you allow them to do matters in a haphazard fashion, it means a system of order by rule of thumb, of guess work, and of conjecture, because it guesses at the amount which is due, and if you are going to start that sort of thing in Ireland, it will not be £750,000, but it will probably be twice that amount which will be asked for next year.
  MR. BROADHURST: I do not know whether the Chief Secretary for Ireland heard the question raised by my honourable Friend on my left. It was this: Can he give the House any guarantee that in cases where more than the due amount is paid on account of the presentation of this Department under these "go-as-you-please" sort of orders for taxation will he give a guarantee that in cases where overpayment is made, he will endeavour to return it to the British taxpayers.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Of course, that will be done. But there is no chance of such a thing happening, for the Local Government Board will see to that.
  MR. BROADHURST: But we are not quite so sure about that. The character of the Local Government Board in Ireland stands none too high in the opinion of English Members of Parliament, and we have the gravest suspicions on this question. Now, the Chief Secretary tells us that he will endeavour to obtain back from the landlords any over-payment that has been made.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: It is bad enough, to have these matters discussed at such length, but the honourable Member really knows nothing whatever about the subject. He is absolutely ignorant of the meaning of this proposal, and no money payment whatever is made under the Bill to the landlords.
  MR. BROADHURST: I have sat in this House longer than the Chief Secretary, and this is the first time I ever heard a Minister of the Crown get up and insult a Member of this House.
  AN HONOURABLE MEMBER: It is the champagne speech over again.
  MR. BROADHURST: It is perfectly true that an honourable Gentleman the other week said that no one had rights except ex-Cabinet Ministers. Well, we think we have rights, and I do not think I am so ignorant of the Bill as the honourable Gentleman would wish the House to believe. It is because we have been discussing the Bill and examining the Bill that the right honourable Gentleman has lost his temper; he loses his temper, and brings discredit upon the Administration by his want of civility and courtesy in this matter. What we are asking, and what I am asking for, is this: Is the right honourable Gentleman in a position to give the House a guaran-
  tee that the money paid above and beyond what is due shall be returned to the British taxpayer? What ignorance is there in asking that? Will the right honourable Gentleman explain what ignorance there is in that? The right honourable Gentleman knows that once this money has left our pockets there is no return for it. Did the right honourable Gentleman ever try to get butter out of a dog's mouth? One thing would be as easy as the other. I am bound to say that I shall vote for the exclusion of this sub-section of the Bill, and I shall do so with all the more determination in consequence of the constant insults to which honourable Members of this House have been subjected at the hands of the Chief Secretary for Ireland.
  Question put—
  "That sub-section 8 stand part of the clause."
  The House divided:—Ayes 238; Noes 70.—(Division List No. 210.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, W. (Cork, N. E.)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Fitzmaurice, Lord Edmond

  Aird, John

  Colomb, Sir John C. R.

  FitzWygram, General Sir F.

  Arnold, Alfred

  Colston, C. E. H. Athole

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Arrol, Sir William

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Flower, Ernest

  Ascroft, Robert

  Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Courtney, Rt., Hon. L. H.

  Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

  Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

  Crean, Eugene

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Bagot, Captain J. FitzRoy

  Crilly, Daniel

  Garfit, William

  Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness)

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  Baird, John George A.

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Cross, H. S. (Bolton)

  Gilhooly, James

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G. W. (Leeds)

  Cruddas, William Donaldson

  Godson, Sir Augustus F.

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Curran, T. B. (Donegal)

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A.H. Smith- (Hunts)

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

  Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. G'rg's)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H. (Brist'l)

  Dalbiac, Colonel Philip H.

  Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

  Birrell, Augustine

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Blake, Edward

  Daly, James

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Gray, Ernest (W. Ham)

  Bolitho, Thomas Bedford

  Denny, Colonel

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)

  Dillon, John

  Greville, Captain

  Brassey, Albert

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Brodrick. Rt. Hon. St. John

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Gunter, Colonel

  Carew, James Laurence

  Doogan, P. C.

  Hammond, John (Carlow)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbysh.)

  Drucker, A.

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.)

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Hardy, Laurence

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Edwards, General Sir J. B.

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Elliot, Hon. A. R. Douglas

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Chelsea, Viscount

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.

  Hemphill. Rt. Hon. C. H.

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Field, William (Dublin)

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Finlay, Sir Robert B.

  Hill, Sir E. Stock (Bristol)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Hobhouse, Henry

  Houston, R. P.

  Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J.

  Rutherford, John

  Howard, Joseph

  Milner, Sir Frederick George

  Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)

  Howell, William Tudor

  Milton, Viscount

  Saunderson, Col. E. J.

  Hozier, Hon. J. H. Cecil

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Hughes, Colonel Edwin

  Molloy, Bernard Charles

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

  Monckton, Edward Philip

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Jenkins, Sir John Jones

  Monk, Charles James

  Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)

  Johnson-Ferguson, J. E.

  More, Robert Jasper

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Smith, A. H. (Christchurch)

  Kenrick, William

  Morris, Samuel

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Kenyon, James

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  Kilbride, Denis

  Murnaghan, George

  Stanley, H. M. (Lambeth)

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Murray, Colonel W. (Bath)

  Stewart, Sir Mark J. M'T.

  Knowles, Lees

  Newdigate, Francis A.

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

  Lafone, Alfred

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Stock, James Henry

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Lawrence Sir E. Durning-(Corn.)

  O'Brien, J. F. X. (Cork)

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary)

  Thorburn, Walter

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.

  O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)

  Leighton, Stanley

  Parnell, John Howard

  Ward, Hon. R. A. (Crewe)

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a)

  Pease, Arthur (Darlington)

  Waring, Colonel Thomas

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Pender, Sir James

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Loder, Gerald Walter E.

  Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

  Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Pinkerton, John

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverp'l)

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C.

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh., N.)

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. E.

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks)

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Purvis, Robert

  Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu's C.)

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Wylie, Alexander

  MacNeill, John Gordon S.

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

  McCartan, Michael

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  McEwan, William

  Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

  Young, Comm. (Berks, E.)

  McIver, Sir Lewis

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  McKillop, James

  Roche, Hon. J. (E. Kerry)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Round, James

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Mandeville, J. Francis

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Maxwell, Rt. Hon. Sir H. E.

  Russell, Gen. F.S. (Cheltenh'm)

  Melville, Beresford V.

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  NOES.

  Allan, W. (Gateshead)

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shaw, C. E. (Stafford)

  Allison, Robert Andrew

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Billson, Alfred

  Joicey, Sir James

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Brigg, John

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Souttar, Robinson

  Brunner, Sir John T.

  Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hn. Sir U.

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Burt, Thomas

  Lambert, George

  Strachey, Edward

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Caldwell, James

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Cameron, Robert (Durham)

  Logan, John William

  Ure, Alexander

  Cawley, Frederick

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Channing, Francis Allston

  McKenna, Reginald

  Wayman, Thomas

  Clough, Walter Owen

  Maddison, Fred.

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Colville, John

  Maden, John Henry

  Williams, John C. (Notts)

  Crombie, John William

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Wills, Sir William Henry

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Palmer, Sir Charles M.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Perks, Robert William

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.)

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Woodall, William

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Gold, Charles

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Price, Robert John

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Courtney Warner and Mr. Broadhurst.

  Havne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale

  Richardson, J. (Durham)

  Holburn, J. G.

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 26, line, 39, leave out 'from value' to 'shall' and insert 'and shall also apportion, in proportion to rateable value, every amount to be raised partly off any urban and partly off any rural district in the county, and any amount apportioned as aforesaid to an urban district, and also any urban charge leviable off an urban district.'"—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
  MR. BROADHURST: I wish to move to omit the whole of this clause. It is very involved in its drafting, and I admit on this occasion the ignorance which the Chief Secretary accused me of.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The honourable Member is not in order in moving that.
  MR. MCKENNA: If the right honourable Gentleman will allow me to say so, to my mind the drafting of this Amendment is not in the least necessary, and he is simply adding three lines of unnecessary verbiage to an exceedingly complicated sub-section. The sub-section proposes—
  "The county council shall apportion every amount to be raised for county at large charges, and every amount to be raised for union charges between any urban district
  situate in the county or union and the rest of the county or union in proportion to the rateable value."
  There is no necessity to repeat, as he proposes in his Amendment, a long provision providing for the special case in which a particular amount is leviable partly off the urban and partly off the rural district. The word "amount" does not show any necessary amount, and it must mean the amount partly leviable off urban and rural districts. In that case the words which the right honourable Gentleman proposes to insert are quite unnecessary.
  MR. ATKINSON: It is necessary to ascertain how much is to be borne by each portion of each urban district and also by each rural district. The reason of it is this. The urban district raises its own taxes, whilst in the rural district the taxes are raised by the county council, and therefore it is absolutely necessary that we should ascertain what particular part of the rate is borne by each urban district, and what is to be borne by each rural district.
  The House divided:—Ayes 239; Noes 69.—(Division List No. 211.)

  AYES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Daly, James

  Aird, John

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbysh.)

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Arnold, Alfred

  Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.)

  Denny, Colonel

  Arrol, Sir William

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Dillon, John

  Ascroft, Robert

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Doogan, P. C.

  Bagot, Captain J. FitzRoy

  Chelsea, Viscount

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness)

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Drucker, A.

  Baird, John George A.

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Coddington, Sir William

  Edwards, General Sir J. B.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W. (Leeds)

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph D.

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hunts)

  Colomb, Sir John C. R.

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Colston, C. E. H. Athole

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H. (Brist'l)

  Cotton-Jodrell Col. E. T. D.

  Field, William (Dublin)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Courtney, Rt. Hon. L. H.

  Finlay, Sir Robert B.

  Bethell, Commander

  Crean, Eugene

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Biddulph, Michael

  Crilly, Daniel

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  FitzWygram, General Sir F.

  Bolitho, Thomas Bedford

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Cross, H. S. (Bolton)

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)

  Cruddas, William Donaldson

  Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

  Brassey, Albert

  Curran, T. B. (Donegal)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo, S.)

  Garfit, William

  Burdett-Coutts, W.

  Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  Buxton, Sydney Charles

  Dalbiac, Colonel Philip H.

  Gilhooly, James

  Carew, James Laurence

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Godson, Sir Augustus F.

  Carlile, William Walter

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Roche, Hon. J. (E. Kerry)

  Goschen, Rt. Hn. G.J. (St. G'rg's)

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Round, James

  Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Russell, Gen. F.S. (Cheltenh'm)

  Graham, Henry Robert

  MacDonald, Dr. M. A. (Qu'ns C.)

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Gray, Ernest (W. Ham)

  MacNeill, John Gordon S.

  Rutherford, John

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  McCartan, Michael

  Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)

  Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury)

  McKillop, James

  Saunderson, Col. E. James

  Greville, Captain

  Malcolm, Ian

  Savory, Sir Joseph

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Mandeville, J. Francis

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Gunter, Colonel

  Maxwell, Rt. Hon. Sir H. E.

  Seton-Karr, Henry

  Hammond, John (Carlow)

  Melville, Beresford V.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

  Milbank, Sir Powlett, C. J.

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Milner, Sir Frederick George

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Hardy, Laurence

  Milton, Viscount

  Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Smith, A. H. (Christchurch)

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Molloy, Bernard Charles

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)

  Monk, Charles James

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  Heaton, John Henniker

  More, Robert Jasper

  Stanley, H. M. (Lambeth)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H.

  Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'T.

  Hill, Sir E. Stock (Bristol)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Stock, James Henry

  Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

  Morris, Samuel

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Hobhouse, Henry

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Houston, R. P.

  Murnaghan, George

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Howard, Joseph

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Thorburn, Walter

  Howell, William Tudor

  Murray, Colonel W. (Bath)

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  Hozier, Hon. J. H. Cecil

  Newdigate, Francis Alexander

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.

  Hughes, Colonel Edwin

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Wallace, R. (Edinburgh)

  Hutchinson, Capt. G.W. Grice-

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Ward, Hon. R. A. (Crewe)

  Jenkins, Sir John Jones

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Waring, Colonel Thomas

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary)

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Kenrick, William

  O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)

  Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)

  Kenyon, James

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Welby, Lt.-Col. A. C. E.

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Pease, A. E. (Cleveland)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under L.)

  Knowles, Lees

  Pender, Sir James

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  Lafone, Alfred

  Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Pinkerton, John

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Lawrence Sir E. Durning-(Corn.)

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh., N.)

  Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks)

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  Pretyman, Ernest George

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.

  Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. E.

  Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

  Leighton, Stanley

  Purvis, Robert

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a)

  Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

  Young, Comm. (Berks, E.)

  Lockwood, Lieut.-Col. A. R.

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Loder, Gerald Walter E.

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l)

  Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Robinson, Brooke

  NOES.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Logan, John William

  Allison, Robert Andrew

  Gold, Charles

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  McEwan, William

  Billson, Alfred

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

  Maddison, Fred.

  Brigg, John

  Holburn, J. G.

  Maden, John Henry

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)

  Brunner, Sir John T.

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Caldwell, James

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)

  Johnson-Ferguson, J. E.

  Palmer, Sir Charles M.

  Cameron, Robert (Durham)

  Joicey, Sir James

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Cawley, Frederick

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Clough, Walter Owen

  Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hn. Sir U.

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Colville, John

  Lambert, George

  Price, Robert John

  Crombie, John William

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land)

  Richardson, J. (Durham)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.)

  Lloyd-George, David

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  856

  857

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Wayman, Thomas

  Woodall, William

  Souttar, Robinson

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Strachey, Edward

  Williams, John C. (Notts)

  Tennant, Harold John

  Wills, Sir William Henry

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. McKenna and Mr. Courtenay Warner.

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Wilson, Charles H. (Hull)

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk)

  Ure, Alexander

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  MR. SPEAKERcalled upon Mr. GERALD BALFOUR to propose the next Amendment.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 26, line 26, leave out from beginning to clause 28."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
  MR. LAMBERTasked if he would be in order in moving the Amendment standing in the name of Mr. Plunkett, which stood on the Paper before that of the Chief Secretary, but which the right honourable Member for Dublin had not moved.
  MR. SPEAKER: The honourable Member would not be in order. The Chief Secretary is in possession of the House, and the honourable Member cannot interpose another Amendment unless the right honourable Gentleman gives way to him.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I beg to move the Amendment standing in my name.
  Question put—
  "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  MR. SPEAKER: The Noes have it.
  Amendment agreed to without a Division.
  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 27, line 34, leave out from beginning of line to end of line 5 in page 28, and insert—
  "Every debt, claim, or demand which is directly or indirectly payable out of the poor rate, and which becomes due after the passing of this Act, shall be paid within the half-year (whether the first or the second six months of the local financial year) in which the same was incurred or became due, or within three months after the expiration of such half-year, and not afterwards: provided that the Local Government Board may, if they think fit, extend the time within which such payment may be made to a time not exceeding twelve months from the date at which the same was incurred or became due.
  "If any person claiming any such debt, claim, or demand commences any legal proceedings within the time hereinbefore limited, or the time to which the Local Government Board may grant extension, and with due diligence prosecutes such proceedings to judgment or other final settlement of the question, such judgment shall be satisfied, notwithstanding that the judgment is recovered or the final settlement arrived at after the expiration of the said time, and all proceedings taken by mandamus or otherwise for enforcing such judgment without delay shall be deemed to be within the operation of this enactment."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I move this Amendment in lieu of those following sub-section 6 in the Bill.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 70; Noes 254.—(Division List No. 212.)

  AYES.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Gold, Charles

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Allison, Robert Andrew

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. G. Seale-

  Palmer, Sir Charles M.

  Billson, Alfred

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Brigg, John

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Brunner, Sir John T.

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Joicey, Sir James

  Price, Robert John

  Caldwell, James

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Reid, Sir Robert T.

  Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)

  Kay-Shuttleworth, Rt. Hn. Sir U.

  Richardson, J. (Durham)

  Cameron, Robert (Durham)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land)

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Cawley, Frederick

  Leese, Sir J. (Accrington)

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Clough, Walter Owen

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Colville, John

  Lloyd-George, David

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Crombie, John William

  Logan, John William

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Dunn, Sir William

  McKenna, Reginald

  Souttar, Robinson

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Maddison, Fred.

  Strachey, Edward

  Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.)

  Mappin, Sir Frederick T.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Williams, John C. (Notts)

  Woods, Samuel

  Ure, Alexander

  Wills, Sir William Henry

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)

  Wilson, Charles H. (Hull)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Broadhurst and Mr. Lambert.

  Warner, Thomas C. T.

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Wayman, T.

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

  Woodall, William

  NOES.

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

  Aird, John

  Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

  Johnson-Ferguson, J. E.

  Arnold, Alfred

  Dillon, John

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Arrol, Sir William

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. D.

  Kenrick, William

  Ascroft, Robert

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Kenyon, James

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Donkin, Richard Sim

  King, Sir Henry Seymour

  Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

  Doogan, P. C.

  Knowles, Lees

  Bagot, Captain J. FitzRoy

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Lafone, Alfred

  Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness)

  Drucker, A.

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Baird, John George A.

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Lawrence Sir E. Durning- (Corn.)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Edwards, General Sir J. B.

  Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W. (Leeds)

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph D.

  Lawson, John Grant (Yorks)

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith-(Hunts)

  Fardell, Sir T. G.

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.

  Legh, Hon. T. W. (Lancs)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.

  Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H. (Brist'l)

  Finlay, Sir Robert B.

  Leighton, Stanley

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Sw'ns'a)

  Bethell, Commander

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Biddulph, Michael

  FitzWygram, General Sir F.

  Loder, Gerald Walter E.

  Birrell, Augustine

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Blake, Edward

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Bolitho, Thomas Bedford

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Garfit, William

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Brassey, Albert

  Gilhooly, James

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Godson, Sir Augustus F.

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Carew, James Laurence

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Carlile, William Walter

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  MacDonnell, Dr. M.A. (Qu's C.)

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St.G'rg's)

  MacNeill, John Gordon S.

  Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbysh.)

  Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

  McArthur, C. (Liverpool)

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  McCalmont, Mj.-Gn. (Ant'm N)

  Cecil, Evelyn (Hertford, E.)

  Gourley, Sir E. Temperley

  McCartan, Michael

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  McEwan, William

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Gray, Ernest (W. Ham)

  McKillop James

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Maden, John Henry

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Malcolm, Ian

  Chelsea, Viscount

  Greville, Captain

  Mandeville, J. Francis

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Maxwell, Rt. Hon. Sir H. E.

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Gunter, Colonel

  Melville, Beresford V.

  Coddington, Sir William

  Hammond, John (Carlow)

  Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J.

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

  Milton, Viscount

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Colomb, Sir John C. R.

  Hardy, Laurence

  Molloy, Bernard Charles

  Colston, C. E. H. Athole

  Harwood, George

  Monk, Charles James

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Haslett, Sir James Horner

  More, Robert Jasper

  Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh)

  Courtney, Rt. Hon. L. H.

  Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Morris, Samuel

  Crean, Eugene

  Helder, Augustus

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Crilly, Daniel

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H.

  Murnaghan, George

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Hill, Sir E. Stock (Bristol)

  Murray, Colonel W. (Bath)

  Cross, H. S. (Bolton)

  Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

  Newdigate, Francis A.

  Cruddas, William Donaldson

  Hobhouse, Henry

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Curran, T. B. (Donegal)

  Holburn, J. G.

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Curran, T. (Sligo, S.)

  Houston, R. P.

  O'Brien, J. F. X. (Cork)

  Curzon, Viscount, (Bucks)

  Howard, Joseph

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Dalbiac, Colonel Philip H.

  Howell, William Tudor

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary)

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Hozier, Hon. J. H. Cecil

  O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Daly, James

  Hughes, Colonel Edwin

  Parnell, John Howard

  860

  861

  Pease, Arthur (Darlington)

  Rutherford, John

  Ward, Hon. R. A. (Crewe)

  Pender, Sir James

  Samuel, H. S. (Limehouse)

  Waring, Colonel Thomas

  Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

  Saunderson, Col. E. James

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Savory, Sir Joseph

  Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)

  Pinkerton, John

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Whiteley, George (Stockport)

  Power, Patrick Joseph

  Shaw Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)

  Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)

  Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. E.

  Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Purvis, Robert

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh., N.>

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Stanley, H. M. (Lambeth)

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks)

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'T.

  Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Stock, James Henry

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Wylie, Alexander

  Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Wyvil, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Robinson, Brooke

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'd Uny.)

  Young, Comm. (Berks, E.)

  Roche, Hon. J. (E. Kerry)

  Thorburn, Walter

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Round, James

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Russell, Gen. F.S. (Cheltenh'm)

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.

  On the question that the sub-sections moved by the Chief Secretary be added to the Bill,
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I observe that there is upon the Order Paper a Bill called the Nonconformist Marriages (Attendance of Registrars) Bill. A considerable amount of discussion will be necessary upon that Measure if it is proceeded with, and I would ask the Government to devote to the purposes of the Local Government Bill the time that a discussion of the Nonconformist Marriages Bill would occupy. If that is done there may be a possibility of having some intelligent discussion of the Measure before the House.
  MR. DILLON: I trust that no observations of the honourable and learned Member for North Louth will induce the Government to abandon the Nonconformist Marriages Bill, in which the Catholic clergy of this country take as much interest as the Nonconformists do. As this question has been raised, I desire to say, speaking as an Irish Member, that I regret deeply the course which some members of the Radical Party have thought fit to take this afternoon, but I feel that the blame for what has occurred must rest largely upon those who have denied Radical Members a fair opportunity of expressing their views.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The application of the closure is a decision of
  862
  the House which cannot be commented upon.
  MR. J. REDMOND: I do not know whether the House quite realises the full effect of what has been going on all this afternoon. I desire to point out very shortly that what has occurred has really prevented an intelligent discussion of a number of questions, in which we are interested.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The only question before the House is whether these sub-sections should be added to the Bill. Upon the Amendment before the House he cannot comment upon the nature of the proceedings this afternoon.
  MR. J. REDMOND: Would my observations be in order if I conclude by moving that the House do now adjourn?
  MR. SPEAKER: I cannot accept a Motion that the House do now adjourn.
  MR. J. REDMOND: Well, in that case I will move the adjournment of the Debate. It is perfectly obvious, judging from what has been going on all this afternoon, that the House cannot fulfil any useful purpose in continuing the Debate to-day. There has been an exhibition of petulance on the part of certain Members of the House which has led to the stoppage altogether of intelligent discussion on the provisions of the Local Government Bill. There are three or

  863
  four questions of very great importance to Ireland still remaining to be discussed, but the time that might have been devoted to them has been wasted in discussing merely technical points, and drafting Amendments, and upon taking a number of Divisions, the object of honourable Members being, apparently, to increase their score in the Division Lobbies. For my part I could never understand the value which, in this country, is set upon the number of times a man walks through the Division Lobbies. I presume that that, at any rate, is one of the objects which honourable Members have had in thus endeavouring to prevent a serious discussion of the Bill during the few hours that remain at our disposal. Sir, on behalf of those whom I represent in this House, I protest against this course, as wasting the valuable time that still remains for Irish Members to discuss questions of importance, and I sincerely hope that the Irish people will take note of the action of their friends and allies.
  MR. CHANNING: I wish to support the Motion that the House do now adjourn, for the simple reason that I have rarely seen a Government take the course which Ministers have taken to-day. The House is perfectly well aware that the representatives of English, Scotch, and Welsh constituencies are deeply interested in these clauses. We have been denied a fair hearing.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I must remind the honourable Member that he must not reflect upon the application of the closure.
  MR. CHANNING: When I made the observation I had in view the action of the Government in attempting to shorten the Debate, and not the decisions of the House with respect to the closure. The temper in which the Government have approached this question has been shown by the Divisions which have occurred. I venture to say that we are entitled to claim that the Debate should be adjourned, because the Government has shown, by its action in refusing to allow these Amendments to be discussed—Amendments involving questions of deep
  864
  interest to English, Welsh, and Scotch constituencies—a spirit which merits resentment from honourable Members on this side of the House. We are treated as if we represented nobody.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The honourable Member must confine his remarks to the question of the adjournment.
  MR. CHANNING: I think the Motion for the adjournment is sufficiently justified by the interruptions to which my speech has been subjected. On behalf of my constituents I claim the right to be heard. The attitude of the Chief Secretary this afternoon shows that the Government are not disposed to allow honourable Members to discuss fully this group of important clauses, but my honourable Friends claim the right to discuss them, in the name of their constituents.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I rise to support the Motion of the honourable Member for Waterford in favour of the adjournment of the Debate. I quite agree with him that there is nothing much to be gained by continuing the discussion of the Bill this evening. The honourable Member rather complained that we have confined our observations to technical Amendments. That is no fault of ours. But when we come to clause 45 we shall be able to discuss matters of substance. The honourable Member for North Louth has referred to the Nonconformist Marriages Bill——
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That has nothing to do with the question of adjournment.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: What I desire to point out to the House is that there is really no foundation for the complaint of the honourable Member for Water-ford. We have only been discussing the Bill for three or four hours; it is a matter of immense importance, involving an expenditure of £750,000, and surely we are entitled to discuss it, and to discuss it very fully.
  MR. J. REDMOND: You discussed these proposals at the stages of the First Reading, Second Reading, and in Committee.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I beg the honourable Member's pardon. It was discussed in a very short time. When we had a similar Bill under consideration for England the discussion occupied weeks and weeks.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I would point out to the honourable Member that on the Motion before the House he cannot discuss the general subject of the progress of the Bill.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: But a complaint has been made against us that we are discussing these clauses at undue length. That, at any rate, is the suggestion; but I respectfully submit that we have done nothing of the kind. Those questions were not thrashed out at any great length in Committee owing to circumstances connected with the death of Mr. Gladstone. The whole of the clause which we have now reached was allowed to pass in the course of a night or two, purely and simply because honourable Members did not care to engage in controversy in the circumstances to which I have referred. We postponed matters which we were very anxious to raise, and which our constituents were much interested in—matters of great interest to the country—simply and solely because we were not disposed to go into controversial matters at that moment.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,): I confess I do not see precisely on what grounds the honourable Member for Northamptonshire and the honourable Member who has just sat down have supported the Motion for the adjournment of the Debate. I understand that they wish to discuss the Bill in what they consider an intelligent fashion.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Certainly, if you will allow us.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Opinions may differ as to the manner in which the discussion on this Bill has been carried on. Everyone on this side of the House—I will not say anything about the other side—has a very strong opinion on the subject. But if honourable Members wish to discuss the Bill why should they support a
  866
  Motion for the adjournment of the Debate? Why should they not allow us to go on with the Debate, and, if they have any arguments to raise worthy of being raised in the House—about which I confess I am somewhat in doubt—let them bring forward these arguments in due course. At present there is nothing but a waste of the time of the House.
  MR. DILLON: I rise for the purpose of opposing the Motion for the adjournment of the House. I regret exceedingly that the Radical Party have felt bound to discuss these small Amendments in the manner they have adopted during the last hour. But, Sir, I hold a totally different view from that expressed by the Chief Secretary and the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the true cause of the present trouble in which we find our selves. I have no desire, Sir, to comment on, or criticise, the application of the closure on your authority—that would be out of order—but I do say that honourable Members who, differing from myself, of the Irish party, sought to place their views before the House both last night and at the beginning of the sitting to-day, met with a reception which no Member of this House ought to meet with. I listened to them at the time——
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The honourable Member is not now speaking to the Motion for the adjournment of the Debate. He is speaking about what occurred yesterday and the early part of to-day, and is saying nothing about the present condition of the House.
  MR. DILLON: I thought I was following the observations of the honourable Member for Waterford, who based his Motion for the adjournment on what had been going on in the House.
  MR. SPEAKER: I am quite aware that observations have been mode on both sides which were somewhat irrelevant. I have endeavoured to stop them, but have not been wholly successful.
  MR. DILLON: In deference to your ruling, Sir, I shall not pursue that line, or elaborate the argument I was about to make. I will come to the point of the present position of the House.

  867
  Everybody will agree that little advantage has been derived, so far as the progress of the Bill is concerned, during the last few hours. Opinion differs as to the cause of that condition of things, and I venture to say that, in my opinion, the proper way out of the present impasse—I am not at liberty to pursue further who is to blame—is not by adjourning the Debate, but by resuming the discussion in a different temper, that there should be a little give and take, and that Members who desired, rationally and fairly, to place their views before the House, even though differing strongly from us and from honourable Members opposite, should get a civil and decent hearing, and should be allowed a reasonable time tea discuss their views, even though they are a minority—a substantial minority, as the Division has just proved. If the Motion for the adjournment were withdrawn, and the discussion carried on in that spirit by the leaders of the House and by the Irish Members, I believe it would be a much more practical way of getting out of the present impasse, and resuming reasonably the discussion of the Bill, than by adjourning the Debate.
  MR. BROADHURST: I should like to point out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer has not been present during the sitting. He has only come in to this Debate, in answer to messengers, I presume, sent to seek some superior Member of the Government to come and take charge of events in the House. I have known the Chancellor of the Exchequer to have intervened many times with great success and great advantage to this House. Once or twice this Session he has done so with marked credit and great success. Now if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been present, he would have seen that it was only through the conduct of an inexperienced Member of this House being left in charge of the leading and important Measure of the Session that the difficulty arose. If the Government elect to leave the leading Bill of this Session in the hands of an honourable Member intellectually capable—he may be—but constitutionally entirely unfitted——
  MR. SPEAKER: I must call the honourable Member to order. He is not
  868
  now speaking to the Motion for the adjournment of the Debate.
  MR. BROADHURST: I was going to say that in my opinion it would be a great advantage to adjourn the Debate at this time, in order that those in charge of the Bill may receive some instruction between now and the resumption of the Report stage as to the general conduct of business in this House and as to the proper treatment of honourable Members by high Government officials. If that were done, then, I think, progress might be made with the Bill, but until it is done little progress will be made.
  MR. COURTENAY: I would appeal to the House whether we had not better drop the present dispute and resume the discussion of the Bill. We certainly will not facilitate the proceedings by discussing, or attempting to discuss, under difficult rules, the way business has been conducted up to this moment. But, if we act in the spirit suggested by the honourable Member for East Mayo, in a speech which does him great credit, and if the honourable Member for Waterford would be good enough to withdraw his Motion—if the House will allow it to be withdrawn—we might resume the discussion of the Bill, and occupy what is left of the sitting to some practical purpose. If we continue to bandy charges, and make suggestions of unparliamentary conduct on one side or the other, it will be impossible, during the rest of the sitting, to make any progress. I would appeal to the honourable Member for Waterford to withdraw his Motion.
  MR. J. REDMOND: My object in making the Motion was to put myself in order for making a protest against what was going on during the afternoon. Having done that, I will be very glad to withdraw the Motion. ["Hear, hear," and "No, no!"] Very well, then I will vote against it.
  MR. LAMBERT: I repudiate entirely the charge levelled against us—that we have discussed this Measure in a spirit of pettiness. I am very sorry to disagree with the honourable Member for East Mayo, but I shall support the Motion of

  869
  the honourable Member for Waterford, in order that the House may adjourn, and that the members of the Government conducting this Bill through the House should come to a better frame of mind, and not taunt honourable Members on this side of the House with ignorance. It is because I do not think that the Government have conducted this Bill fairly this afternoon that I support this Motion for the adjournment, in order that they may come down to-morrow in a frame of mind which will allow freer discussion in the House. I quite agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer—I only wish he were here before—that we should get into a frame of mind to dis-
  cuss this Bill with freedom, but he should, appeal to honourable Members on his own side rather than to honourable Members on this side, because it is entirely due to the Members of the Government themselves if we have taken mores than ordinary interest in this Bill, and it is because they will come down tomorrow in a better frame of mind that I shall support this Motion.
  Question put—
  "That the Debate be now adjourned."
  The House divided:—Ayes 80; Noes 275.—(Division List No, 213.)

  AYES.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Richardson, J. (Durham)

  Allison, Robert Andrew

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Billson, Alfred

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Brigg, John

  Joicey, Sir James

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Broadhurst, Henry

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Strachey, Edward

  Brunner, Sir John T.

  Kitson, Sir James

  Tennant, Harold John

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Langley, Batty

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Burt, Thomas

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land)

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Caldwell, James

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Ure, Alexander

  Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)

  Cameron, Robert (Durham)

  Logan, John William

  Wallace, Robert (Perth)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  McKenna, Reginald

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Cawley, Frederick

  McLaren, Charles Benjamin

  Warner, Thomas C. T.

  Channing, Francis Allston

  Maddison, Fred.

  Wayman, Thomas

  Clough, Walter Owen

  Maden, John Henry

  Williams, John C. (Notts)

  Colville, John

  Mappin, Sir Frederick Thorpe

  Wills, Sir William Henry

  Crombie, John William

  Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)

  Wilson, Charles H. (Hull)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk)

  Davitt, Michael

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, John (Durham, Mid)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Palmer, Sir Charles M.

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton)

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Woodall, William

  Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co)

  Perks, Robert William

  Woods, Samuel

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Pickard, Benjamin

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Mr. Lloyd-George and Mr. Lambert.

  Gold, Charles

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  Gourley, Sir E. Temperley

  Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

  NOES.

  Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manc'r)

  Blake, Edward

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W. (Leeds)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Aird, John

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Bolitho, Thomas Bedford

  Arnold, Alfred

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith- (Hunts)

  Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Brassey, Albert

  Ascroft, Robert

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brist'l)

  Carew, James Laurence

  Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Carlile, William Walter

  Bagot, Captain J. FitzRoy

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness)

  Bethell, Commander

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbysh.)

  Baird, John George A.

  Biddulph, Michael

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Balcarres, Lord

  Bigwood, James

  Cecil, E. (Hertford, E.)

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Birrell, Augustine

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Monk, Charles James

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

  Greville, Captain

  More, Robert Jasper

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Chelsea, Viscount

  Gunter, Colonel

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Hall, Sir Charles

  Morris, Samuel

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Hammond, John (Carlow)

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Coddington, Sir William

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

  Murnaghan, George

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Hardy, Laurence

  Murray, Colonel W. (Bath)

  Colomb, Sir John C. R.

  Harwood, George

  Newdigate, Francis A.

  Colston, C. E. H. Athole

  Haslett, Sir James H.

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Cook, F. L. (Lambeth)

  Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)

  O'Brien, J. F. X. (Cork)

  Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

  Heaton, John Henniker

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Courtney, Rt. Hon. L. H.

  Helder, Augustus

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary)

  Cozens-Hardy, Herbert H.

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H.

  O'Connor, A. (Donegal)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Hermon-Hodge, R. T.

  O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

  Crean, Eugene

  Hill, Sir Edward S. (Bristol)

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Crilly, Daniel

  Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

  Parnell, John Howard

  Cripps, Charles Alfred

  Hobhouse, Henry

  Pease, Arthur (Darlington)

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Holburn, J. G.

  Pender, Sir James

  Cross, H. S. (Bolton)

  Houston, R. P.

  Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

  Cruddas, William Donaldson

  Howard, Joseph

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Curran, T. B. (Donegal)

  Howell, William Tudor

  Pinkerton, John

  Curran, T. (Sligo, S.)

  Hozier, Hon. J. H. Cecil

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Curzon, Rt. Hn. G.N. (Lancs, S.W.)

  Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

  Price, Robert John

  Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

  Hughes, Colonel Edwin

  Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)

  Dalbiac, Colonel Philip H.

  Hutchinson, Capt. G.W. Grice-

  Pryce-Jones, Lt.-Col. E.

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jenkins, Sir John Jones

  Purvis, Robert

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Johnson-Ferguson, J. E.

  Redmond, J. E. (Waterford)

  Daly, James

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Kenrick, William

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Denny, Colonel

  Kenyon, James

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Dillon, John

  Kilbride, Denis

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlep'l)

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. D.

  King, Sir Henry S.

  Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Knowles, Lees

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.

  Doogan, P. C.

  Knox, Edmund Francis V.

  Robinson, Brooke

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Roche, Hon. J. (E. Kerry)

  Drucker, A.

  Lawrence Sir E Durning- (Corn.)

  Rothschild, Baron F. J. de

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Edwards, General Sir J. B.

  Lawson, John G. (Yorks)

  Russell, Gen. F.S. (Cheltenh'm)

  Elliot, Hon. A. R. D.

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.

  Rutherford, John

  Fardell, Sir T. George

  Legh, Hon. T. W. (Lancs)

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. T. Myles

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Saunderson, Col. E. James

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.

  Leighton, Stanley

  Savory, Sir Joseph

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc.)

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn- (Sw'ns'a)

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Sharpe, William Edward T.

  Field, William (Dublin)

  Loder, Gerald Walter E.

  Shaw-Stewart, M.H. (Renfrew)

  Finlay, Sir Robert B.

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Long, Rt. Hn. W. (Liverpool)

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  FitzWygram, General Sir F.

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Stanley, H. M. (Lambeth)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Stewart, Sir M. J. M'T.

  Flower, Ernest

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir J. M.

  Flynn, James Christopher

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Stock, James Henry

  Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

  Galloway, William Johnson

  MacDonnell, Dr. M. A. (Qu'n's C.)

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Garfit, William

  MacNeill, John Gordon S.

  Talbot, Rt. Hn. J.G. (Oxf'd Uny)

  Gedge, Sydney

  McArthur, C. (Liverpool)

  Thorburn, Walter

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  McCalmont, Mj.-Gn. (Ant'm N.)

  Gibbs, Hn. A.G.H. (C. of Lond.)

  McCartan, Michael

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Gilhooly, James

  McEwan, William

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  Gilliat, John Saunders

  McKillop, James

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Godson, Sir Augustus F.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Mandeville, J. Francis

  Ward, Hon. R. A. (Crewe)

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)

  Waring, Colonel Thomas

  Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. G'rg's)

  Melville, Beresford V.

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Goschen, G. J. (Sussex)

  Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J.

  Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Milner, Sir Frederick G.

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Milton, Viscount

  Whiteley, G. (Stockport)

  Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton under-L.)

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Molloy, Bernard Charles

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  872

  873

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Wylie, Alexander

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Wyndham-Quin, Maj. W. H.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh., N.)

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Wilson-Todd, W. H. (Yorks)

  Young, Comm. (Berks, E.)

  Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  MR. SPEAKER: The question is that these words be there inserted.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Mr. Speaker, on the question that those words be there inserted I fully recognise that words something to this effect must be inserted here after the elimination of the words already agreed to. I propose, rather than divide against the whole, to divide against the words "twelve months," in order to insert "two years." It is all very well for the Chief Secretary to say that he has introduced this from the English Act. I do not think the Chief Secretary is very cognisant of the way this thing is worked. I think it has worked rather badly, and if it had not been for the way the Local Government Board has taken the thing in their own hands—if this thing were very stringently carried out—it would practically have been impossible for the local authorities to carry on their business. Let the Chief Secretary imagine for a moment what this amounts to, if a debt or a bill is to be paid within six months of its being incurred. Take a solicitor's bill in an ordinary action. The action may take a year or two, and the appeal
  may take two years. Is the bill to be sent in each half-year as it proceeds? If you construe this section very technically the solicitor would be done out of his bill altogether; and there has been a difficulty, especially with regard to district boards. I think you ought to extend the powers of the Local Government Board to something beyond 12 months, and I move, therefore, Mr. Speaker, that the words "twelve months" be omitted, in order to insert "two years." Of course, I agree that these debts must not go on indefinitely, otherwise local authorities would never know what their liabilities are. I move the omission of the words "twelve months" in line 8, in order to insert "two years."
  MR. SPEAKER: The question is that "twelve months" stand part of the Amendment.
  Division claimed.
  Question put—
  "That 'twelve months' stand part of the Amendment."
  The House divided:—Ayes 271; Noes 83.—(Division List No. 214.)

  AYES.

  Abraham, W. (Cork, N.E.)

  Bathurst, Hon. Allen B.

  Cecil, E. (Hertford, E.)

  Acland-Hood, Capt. Sir A. F.

  Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M.H. (Brist'l)

  Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

  Aird, John

  Beckett, Ernest William

  Chamberlain, Rt. Hn. J. (Birm.)

  Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

  Beresford, Lord Charles

  Chamberlain, J. A. (Worc'r)

  Arrol, Sir William

  Bethell, Commander

  Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

  Ascroft, Robert

  Biddulph, Michael

  Chelsea, Viscount

  Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

  Bigwood, James

  Clancy, John Joseph

  Austin, M. (Limerick, W.)

  Blundell, Colonel Henry

  Cochrane, Hon. T. H. A. E.

  Bagot, Captain J. FitzRoy

  Bolitho, Thomas Bedford

  Coddington, Sir William

  Baillie, J. E. B. (Inverness)

  Boulnois, Edmund

  Coghill, Douglas Harry

  Baird, John George A.

  Bowles, T. G. (King's Lynn)

  Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

  Balcarres, Lord

  Brassey, Albert

  Colomb, Sir John C. R.

  Baldwin, Alfred

  Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

  Colston, C. E. H. Athole

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. A.J. (Manc'r)

  Carew, James Laurence

  Condon, Thomas Joseph

  Balfour, Rt. Hon. G.W. (Leeds)

  Carlile, William Walter

  Cook, F. L. (Lambeth)

  Banbury, Frederick George

  Carvill, Patrick G. H.

  Cotton-Jodrell, Col. E. T. D.

  Barnes, Frederic Gorell

  Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

  Courtney, Rt. Hon. L. H.

  Barry, Rt. Hn. A. H. Smith- (Hunts)

  Cavendish, V.C.W. (Derbysh.)

  Cranborne, Viscount

  Bartley, George C. T.

  Cayzer, Sir Charles William

  Crean, Eugene

  Crilly, Daniel

  Hobhouse, Henry

  Parkes, Ebenezer

  Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

  Houston, R. P.

  Pease, Arthur (Darlington)

  Cross, H. S. (Bolton)

  Howard, Joseph

  Pender, Sir James

  Cruddas, William Donaldson

  Howell, William Tudor

  Phillpotts, Captain Arthur

  Curran, Thomas (Sligo,. S.)

  Hozier, Hon. J. H. Cecil

  Pierpoint, Robert

  Curzon, Rt. Hn. G.N. (Lancs, SW)

  Hubbard, Hon. Evelyn

  Pinkerton, John

  Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

  Hughes, Colonel Edwin

  Plunkett, Rt. Hon. H. C.

  Dalbiac, Colonel Philip H.

  Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

  Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

  Dalkeith, Earl of

  Jenkins, Sir John Jones

  Priestley, Sir W. O. (Edin.)

  Dalrymple, Sir Charles

  Johnson-Ferguson, J. E.

  Pryce-Jones, Lieut.-Col. E.

  Daly, James

  Jordan, Jeremiah

  Purvis, Robert

  Davenport, W. Bromley-

  Kennaway, Rt. Hn. Sir J. H.

  Renshaw, Charles Bine

  Denny, Colonel

  Kenrick, William

  Rentoul, James Alexander

  Dillon, John

  Kenyon, James

  Richards, Henry Charles

  Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. D.

  Kilbride, Denis

  Richardson, Sir T. (Hartlepool)

  Donelan, Captain A.

  Knowles, Lees

  Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir M. W.

  Doogan, P. C.

  Knox, Edmund Francis V.

  Ritchie, Rt. Hon. C. T.

  Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

  Laurie, Lieut.-General

  Robinson, Brooke

  Drucker, A.

  Lawrence Sir E. Durning-(Corn.)

  Roche, Hon. J. (E. Kerry)

  Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

  Lawrence, W. F. (Liverpool)

  Rothschild, Baron F. J. de

  Edwards, General Sir J. B.

  Lawson, John G. (Yorks)

  Royds, Clement Molyneux

  Elliot, Hon. A. Ralph D.

  Lea, Sir T. (Londonderry)

  Russell, Gen. F.S. (Cheltenh'm)

  Esmonde, Sir Thomas

  Lecky, Rt. Hon. W. E. H.

  Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

  Fardell, Sir T. G.

  Legh, Hon. T. W. (Lancs)

  Rutherford, John

  Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn E.

  Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

  Sandys, Lt.-Col. T. Myles

  Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc'r)

  Leighton, Stanley

  Saunderson, Colonel E. J.

  Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

  Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Sw'ns'a)

  Savory, Sir Joseph

  Finlay, Sir Robert B.

  Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R.

  Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

  Fisher, William Hayes

  Loder, Gerald Walter E.

  Sharpe, William E. T.

  FitzGerald, Sir R. Penrose-

  Long, Col. C. W. (Evesham)

  Shaw-Stewart, M. H. (Renfrew)

  FitzWygram, General Sir F.

  Long, Rt. Hon. W. (Liverp'l)

  Sidebottom, T. H. (Stalybr.)

  Flannery, Fortescue

  Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

  Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

  Flavin, Michael Joseph

  Lorne, Marquess of

  Spencer, Ernest

  Flower, Ernest

  Loyd, Archie Kirkman

  Stanley, Lord (Lancs)

  Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

  Lubbock, Rt. Hon. Sir John

  Stanley, H. M. (Lambeth)

  Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir Henry

  Lucas-Shadwell, William

  Stewart, Sir M. J. McT.

  Galloway, William Johnson

  Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

  Stirling-Maxwell, Sir John M.

  Garfit, William

  Macaleese, Daniel

  Stock, James Henry

  Gedge, Sydney

  Macartney, W. G. Ellison

  Stone, Sir Benjamin

  Gibbons, J. Lloyd

  MacNeill, John Gordon S.

  Sullivan, D. (Westmeath)

  Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (C. of Lond.)

  McArthur, C. (Liverpool)

  Sullivan, T. D. (Donegal, W.)

  Giles, Charles Tyrrell

  McCalmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.)

  Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

  Gilhooly, James

  McCartan, Michael

  Talbot Rt. Hn. J. G. (Oxf'dUny.)

  Gilliat, John Saunders

  McEwan, William

  Thorburn, Walter

  Godson, Sir Augustus F.

  McKillop, James

  Tollemache, Henry James

  Gordon, Hon. John Edward

  Maden, John Henry

  Tomlinson, W. E. Murray

  Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John E.

  Malcolm, Ian

  Tritton, Charles Ernest

  Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. G'rg's)

  Mandeville, J. Francis

  Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. H.

  Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

  Mappin, Sir Frederick T.

  Wallace, Robert (Edinburgh)

  Goulding, Edward Alfred

  Mellor, Colonel (Lancashire)

  Ward, Hon. R. A. (Crewe).

  Graham, Henry Robert

  Melville, Beresford V.

  Waring, Colonel Thomas

  Gray, Ernest (W. Ham)

  Milbank, Sir Powlett C. J.

  Warr, Augustus Frederick

  Green, W. D. (Wednesbury)

  Milner, Sir Frederick G.

  Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)

  Greene, H. D. (Shrewsbury)

  Milward, Colonel Victor

  Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

  Greville, Captain

  Molloy, Bernard Charles

  Whiteley, G. (Stockport)

  Gull, Sir Cameron

  Monk, Charles James

  Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)

  Gunter, Colonel

  Montagu, Hon. J. S. (Hants)

  Whitmore, Charles Algernon

  Hall, Sir Charles

  More, Robert Jasper

  Williams, J. Powell (Birm.)

  Hammond, John (Carlow)

  Morgan, Hon. F. (Monm'thsh.)

  Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

  Hanbury, Rt. Hon. R. W.

  Morrell, George Herbert

  Wilson, John (Falkirk)

  Hanson, Sir Reginald

  Morris, Samuel

  Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh., N.)

  Hardy, Laurence

  Morton, A. H. A. (Deptford)

  Wilson-Todd. W. H. (Yorks)

  Harwood, George

  Murnaghan, George

  Wodehouse, E. R. (Bath)

  Haslett, Sir James, H.

  Murray, Rt. Hn. A. G. (Bute)

  Wolff, Gustav Wilhelm

  Murray, Colonel W. (Bath)

  Wylie, Alexander

  Hayden, John Patrick

  Newdigate, Francis A.

  Wyndham, George

  Healy, T. M. (N. Louth)

  Nicholson, William Graham

  Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

  Heaton, John Henniker

  Nicol, Donald Ninian

  Young, Comm. (Berks, E.)

  Helder, Augustus

  O'Brien, J. F. X. (Cork)'

  Young, Samuel (Cavan, E.)

  Hemphill, Rt. Hon. C. H.

  O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

  Hermon-Hodge, Robert T.

  O'Brien, P. J. (Tipperary)

  TELLERS FOR THE AYES—Sir William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

  Hill, Sir Edward S. (Bristol)

  O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)

  Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

  O'Connor, J. (Wicklow, W.)

  876

  877

  NOES.

  Allan, William (Gateshead)

  Griffith, Ellis J.

  Richardson, J. (Durham)

  Allison, Robert Andrew

  Hayne, Rt. Hon. C. Seale-

  Rickett, J. Compton

  Asquith, Rt. Hon. H. H.

  Holburn, J. G.

  Schwann, Charles E.

  Atherley-Jones, L.

  Horniman, Frederick John

  Shaw, Thomas (Hawick B.)

  Barlow, John Emmott

  Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

  Smith, Samuel (Flint)

  Billson, Alfred

  Jacoby, James Alfred

  Soames, Arthur Wellesley

  Birrell, Augustine

  Joicey, Sir James

  Stevenson, Francis S.

  Brigg, John

  Jones, W. (Carnarvonshire)

  Strachey, Edward

  Brunner, Sir John T.

  Kay-Shutleworth, Rt. Hn. Sir U.

  Tennant, Harold John

  Buchanan, Thomas Ryburn

  Kitson. Sir James

  Thomas, A. (Carmarthen, E.)

  Burt, Thomas

  Lambert, George

  Thomas, A. (Glamorgan, E.)

  Caldwell, James

  Langley, Batty

  Ure, Alexander

  Cameron, Sir C. (Glasgow)

  Lawson, Sir W. (Cumb'land)

  Wallace, Robert (Perth)

  Cameron, Robert (Durham)

  Leese, Sir J. F. (Accrington)

  Walton, Joseph (Barnsley)

  Causton, Richard Knight

  Lewis, John Herbert

  Warner, Thomas C. T.

  Cawley, Frederick

  Logan, John William

  Wayman, Thomas

  Channing, Francis Allston

  McLaren, Charles Benjamin

  Williams, John C. (Notts)

  Clough, Walter Owen

  Maddison, Fred.

  Wills, Sir William Henry

  Colville, John

  Montagu, Sir S. (Whitechapel)

  Wilson, Charles H. (Hull)

  Cozens-Hardy, Herbert H.

  Norton, Captain Cecil W.

  Wilson, F. W. (Norfolk)

  Crombie, John William

  Nussey, Thomas Willans

  Wilson, J. (Durham, Mid)

  Dalziel, James Henry

  Palmer, Sir Charles M.

  Wilson, John (Govan)

  Dunn, Sir William

  Paulton, James Mellor

  Woodall, William

  Evans, Sir F. H. (South'ton)

  Perks, Robert William

  Woods, Samuel

  Farquharson, Dr. Robert

  Philipps, John Wynford

  Yoxall, James Henry

  Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.)

  Pickard, Benjamin

  Goddard, Daniel Ford

  Pirie, Duncan V.

  TELLERS FOR THE NOES—Mr. Lloyd-George and Mr. Broadhurst.

  Gold, Charles

  Price, Robert John

  Gourley, Sir E. T.

  Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

  Amendment proposed—
  "Page 28, line 12, at end, add—
  "Provided that in a county borough the council may, if they think fit, either immediately prior to or at the beginning of each local financial year, make one poor rate for the whole financial year, and collect the same in equal moieties, one moiety for each half-year."—(Mr. Gerald Balfour.)
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I beg to move the Amendment.
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he had some hope that the Radical party would oppose this Amendment. It was an exceedingly bad Amendment.
  Debate adjourned at half-past Five o'clock.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I move that the House be adjourned, and I beg to give notice that to-morrow I will move the suspension of the Twelve o'clock rule.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Will the right honourable Gentleman tell us whether it is his intention to finish the Bill at all hazards to-morrow? I understand that the Irish Party are under an engagement to give the Government six sittings to conclude the Report stage. That period, of course, ends to-morrow. Does the Government contemplate an all-night Sitting, or continuing the Debate on Friday? Has he anything in his mind?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I hope we may be able, without putting an undue strain upon Members of the House, to carry out the arrangement entered into by general assent that the Bill should be finished to-morrow. If, unfortunately, the programme can not be carried out, I will have to consider how Friday and Saturday should be so employed as to deal with the new situation thus created.
  MR. CHANNING: I would like to point out that when this arrangement was entered into with the Irish Members I expressly pointed out that there were other Members who had a right to be considered on the question, and those Members must reserve their right to discuss the Bill.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I desire to say that I was no party to that agreement. It was made by the honourable Gentleman the Member for East Mayo.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: With reference to the dragging state of public business I would respectfully suggest to the right honourable Gentleman as to whether he will not reconsider the very extensive programme of 27 Bills to be passed in 12 days, and whether, under these circumstances, he will not reconsider the situation with a view to abandoning some of these Bills, especially the Criminal Evidence Bill.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The honourable Member has mentioned 27 Bills in 12 days. That sounds a big programme. But I would remind my honourable Friend that we have passed three Bills since half-past five this afternoon.

BILLS ADVANCED.
  COMPANIES ACT (1867) AMENDMENT (No. 2) BILL.
  Read the third time, and passed.
  RIVERS POLLUTION PREVENTION (BORDER COUNTY COUNCILS) (No. 2) BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported, without Amendment; Read the third time, and passed.

  MUSSEL FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)

  CLAUSE 1.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
  TRUSTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Read a second time, and committed for To-morrow.

  INDIA OFFICE (STORE DEPOT) BILL.
  Reported from the Select Committee, with Amendments.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 298.]
  Minutes of Proceedings to be printed. [No. 298.]
  Bill re-committed to a Committee of the Whole House for To-morrow.

BILL WITHDRAWN.
  SUPERANNUATION (METROPOLIS) BILL.
  Order for second reading read, and discharged; Bill withdrawn.
MISCELLANEOUS.
  PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE.
  Eighth Report brought up, and read; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.

  PETROLEUM.
  Report from the Select Committee with Minutes of Evidence.
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 299.]
  House adjourned at 5.40.