Sitting of 27 July 1897

SHIPPING (UNDERMANNING) BILL.
Lords Amendments considered, and agreed to.
CHAFF CUTTING MACHINERY (ACCIDENTS) BILL.
Lords Amendment considered, and agreed to.
NOTICE OF MOTION.
MR. R. G.WEBSTERgave notice that early next Session he should call attention to the system by which the North-Eastern Railway hindered the development of the most important harbours on the north-eastern coast of England and thereby decreasing the prosperity of that part of the United Kingdom, and would move a Resolution.
QUESTIONS.

  NEW ZEALAND SHIPPING AND SEAMEN ACT, 1896.
  SIR EDWARD HILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether his attention has been

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  called to Section 10 of The New Zealand Shipping and Seamen Act, 1896, which section would have the effect of setting aside contracts as to rates of wages formally entered into in the United Kingdom between shipowners and seamen, and of compelling shipowners to pay whatever might happen to be the "current wages" on the New Zealand coast whilst their vessels traded there; and, if he could see his way to make any representations to the Premiers of British Colonies suggesting that legislation upon shipping should not, except in cases of extreme necessity, extend beyond the provisions of the British Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, and any Acts which may hereafter be passed amending the same?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,: My attention has been called to the section in question and I have, after consulting the Board of Trade, suggested to the Colonial Government the expediency of amending it so as to limit its application to ships engaged in the New Zealand coasting trade. The Colonial Governments are no doubt aware that Her Majesty's Government consider uniformity of legislation upon shipping throughout the Empire to be desirable so far as local circumstances will permit.

  EAST INDIAN RAILWAY COMPANY.
  SIR CHARLES CAYZER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether he is aware that the East Indian Railway Company, whose railway was built by British capital, under Government guarantee, and of which the Government are now the owners by purchase, have recently purchased 7,708 tons of steel rails and fish plates from the Maryland Steel Company, of America, and that the same are to be shipped direct from America to Calcutta; whether he is aware that 3,000 to 4,000 tons of steel rails are now being shipped by the steam ship "City of Dundee" from Baltimore to Calcutta; whether he is aware that the tender of the Maryland Steel Company of America is nearly one pound per ton lower than any British tender; if he will state the quality and price per ton of steel rails and fish plates in each of the tenders received; and, whether some of the other Indian guaranteed railways make it a
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  condition of their tenders that the goods shall be of British manufacture; and, if so, why the East Indian Railway Company cannot also do so?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,: It has been the practice of the India Office to give the preference to British manufactures provided the difference in price and quality is not great. In this case I am informed that the tender accepted by the Board of the East India Railway Company appeared to be in all respects a satisfactory one as regards quality, and that by accepting in its place the lowest tenders of a British firm they would have incurred an additional charge of over £6,000.
  SIR C. CAYZERasked the noble Lord whether, if he could not give the House the information asked for in respect to each of the tenders received, he would give the particulars to the Commercial Intelligence Committee appointed by the President of the Board of Trade to ascertain the best means of assisting British trade in its competition with foreign trade?
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: I may say that the tender of the Maryland Steel Co. was about £36,500, delivery in Calcutta, whilst the lowest British tender was about £35,500, delivery at all English port; and I am informed that the quality of the rails was equal.
  MR. J. C. FLYNNasked whether it was customary to read to the House the figures relating to contracts entered into by public Departments?
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTasked whether the foreign tenderers undertook to conform to Trade Union regulations and to the provisions of the Factory Acts?
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order ! Notice should be given of that Question.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTONsaid that he believed that it was not customary to give the figures of the different tenders but that was not the question in this case. He was asked regarding the lowest British tender and the tender of the American firm.

  CLOGHER VALLEY RAILWAY COMPANY.
  MR. D. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the

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  Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, is he aware that the Clogher Valley Railway Company repeatedly start their trains from Tynan without waiting for the mails due on the arrival of the Great Northern trains from Belfast, thereby causing a delay of several hours in the delivery at Aughnacloy, Ballygawley, Augher, and other towns; and will steps be taken to provide a remedy?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,: It is the fact that, owing to the late arrival at Tynan of the Great Northern train from Belfast, there are occasional failures of junction with the 9.40 a.m. train on the Clogher Valley Railway, giving rise to a delay of about four hours in the delivery of the day mail letters at Aughnacloy, Ballygawley, etc. The Department is in communication with the railway companies concerned to see if anything can be clone to insure greater regularity. The Clogher Valley Company are, however, in this difficulty that the 9.40 a. m. train from Tynan is Only due at Maguiresbridge seven minutes before the train thence for Enniskillen, and that tins connection would be endangered were they to wait longer at Tynan for the Belfast train. They already allow an interval of ten minutes for any delay in the arrival of the train from Belfast, which is due at Tynan at 9.30.

  DISMISSAL OF RURAL POSTMAN (TOTNES).
  MR. C. SEALE-HAYNE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether J. C. Kinsman, who has been for six years a rural postman to the Totnes Post Office, has been dismissed at a fortnight's notice in consequence of an allegation, which he denies, that he caused an anonymous letter to be inserted in a local newspaper referring to the number of miles he had to walk daily for 14s. per week; and whether the case of this man may be reconsidered?
  MR. HANBURY: Kinsman was not dismissed for causing a letter to be sent to the newspapers, but for insubordination and delegation of his duties to unauthorised persons. The facts are that some months ago the delivery was
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  extended to 14 miles and Kinsman's wages were increased from 9s. to 14s. a week; but he was required to live at the starting point of the walk. This he did for a while, but recently he went back to Dartington to reside, and thus added quite unnecessarily six miles a day to his walk, and he also intrusted letters to unauthorised persons to deliver. For these reasons he was given a fortnight's notice that his services would no longer be required, and the Postmaster General is unable to re-employ him.

  GOLD COAST COMPULSORY LABOUR ORDINANCE.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has received any representations against the Gold Coast Compulsory Labour Ordinance of 1896; and; whether Her Majesty's Government proposes to take steps for the modification of the system of labour sanctioned by that Ordinance.
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: A representation has been received from the Aborigines Protection Society. If the right hon. Member has seen that representation he has doubtless noticed that, while stigmatizing the labour as a form of slavery, it refers to almost every section of the ordinance except the fifth, which secures to the men payment for their labour at the current rate of wages. The society admit in their letter that, as it was understood to be merely a temporary measure rendered necessary for the supply of carriers for the expedition to Kumassi, and net intended to be otherwise applied, they did not feel justified in objecting to it at the time. It has been extended to the end of the present year in order to meet a similar emergency arising out of recent events in the country north of Kumassi; and Her Majesty's Government see no reason to object to it.
  SIR C. DILKEasked whether he was to understand that the measure was regarded as a temporary one?
  MR. CHAMBERLAINsaid that it was not upon that ground only that the Government would interfere.

  KINGSWINFORD INCLOSURE ACT.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONES: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department (1) whether he is aware that the Kingswinford Inclosure Act (24 Geo. 3, c. 18) made provision that copies of the map annexed to the award of the Commissioners, showing the common lands allotted under the Act, should be deposited in the parish church of Kingswinford, in the county of Stafford, and in one of Her Majesty's Courts of Record at Westminster; (2) whether he is aware that the copy of the map deposited in the said parish church has disappeared, and that the copy of the map deposited in one of Her Majesty's Courts at Westminster, though duly transferred to the Record Office and duly indexed there, can no longer be found, and that the sole copy now remaining is in the hands of the lord of the manor of Kingswinford (Lord Dudley); (3) whether he is aware that, owing to the subsidence of the soil at Quarry Bank, in the said parish, caused by mining operations, there are disputes pending between the lord of the said manor and divers other persons which render access to the said map necessary; and (4) whether, under these circumstances, he can see his way to having a certified copy of the said map made and deposited in the Record office?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY,: The statements in the first two paragraphs of the Question are, I understand not altogether accurate; as regards the third, I have no information. The matter is not one in which I have any power to interfere, but Lord Dudley's solicitors inform me that until last week no application was made for the production of Lord Dudley's map, that they at once allowed it to be inspected and that they have also undertaken to furnish a copy of it.

  ARMY BENEVOLENT ALLOWANCE.
  MR. JAMES DALY: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office whether he is aware that Patrick Clarke, or Clerkin, at present residing in Ballybay, county Monaghan, served 18 years in foreign service in the 107th Bengal Infantry, and is now in a
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  very destitute condition; and whether he will make inquiries with the view of making some allowance to this old soldier?
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR, OFFICE (Mr. POWELL-WILLIAMS,said that the soldier referred to was discharged from the Army at his own request before completing the term of service necessary for pension, and that therefore no allowance could be made to him from Army funds.
  MR. DALYasked whether there was no fund out of which relief could be given to this poor man?
  MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSsaid that if the hon. Member would write to him, giving him all the circumstances of the case, he would see whether any allowance could be made to the individual in question from one of the benevolent funds.

  SCULCOATES GUARDIANS.
  LORD EDMUND TALBOT: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, with reference to the case of Arthur Blow and the Sculcoates Guardians, whether the attention of the Local Government Board was called to this case in January 1896, and why they did not reply till June of the same year, when they said the district auditor must first deal with the case; also why the district auditor did not deal with it till February 1891; will he also state why, although the district auditor surcharged the relief granted because the orders of the Local Government Board had not been carried out, the Local Government Board have now remitted the amount surcharged; and why, as this boy came under the Boarding-out Orders of 1889, did not the Local Government Board insist on the Guardians carrying out those orders when the case was first brought to their notice?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. T. W. RUSSELL,: When the attention of the Local Government Board was drawn by Mr. King to the case referred to, in January 1896, the Board made inquiry of the Guardians as to the facts, and several communications passed between the Board and the Guardians on the subject. After this correspondence the Board were advised that they were

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  not empowered to remove the child from the care of the person with whom he had been placed by his mother, but that the question of the legality of the payment by the Guardians for the child could be determined if the sum paid were disallowed by the district auditor. The Board accordingly informed Mr. King, in June 1896, that it was open to him to attend before the auditor and to object to any payment that might have been made by the Guardians in the case. The auditor, in February 1897, which, as I understand was the first audit at which objection was taken to the payment, disallowed the sum charged in the accounts of the relieving officer in respect of the relief. On an appeal to the Board, they held that the payment was illegal, but they considered that the circumstances were such that the relieving officer should not be held personally liable, and having regard to the fact that the officer had only recently been appointed, that he had acted under the instructions of the Guardians in the matter, and that he was not aware that the relief was illegal, the Board, in the exercise of their equitable jurisdiction, remitted the disallowance. As to the third Question, the Board, as I have stated, were advised that they were not empowered to comply with the request for the removal of the child, and that the course which should be adopted was that which was suggested to Mr. king.

  BRITISH TRADE.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies when the replies to his Dispatch of last year to Governors of Colonies respecting the development of trade with the United Kingdom will be laid upon the Table?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: I am laying the Paper upon the Table this afternoon, and it will be printed off and circulated with as little delay as possible.

  IRISH TEACHERS.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) how many teachers holding Second Division of First Class, of over seven years' standing as such, were in the service of the National
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  Board on 31st March last; (2) how many of these were promoted under the new regulations of the Board, and if any omitted; and (3) whether Inspectors will be called upon to furnish any local causes that may have interfered with the efficiency of the Schools?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. GERALD. BALFOUR,: Six hundred and eighty-seven teachers holding Second Division of First Class of over seven years' standing as such were in the service of the National Board on 31st March, 1897. Of these none have as yet been promoted. The results of the investigations which have just been completed are, however, under careful consideration, and it is hoped that the Commissioners may soon be in a position to decide as to the individuals whose "highly efficient" service warrants their promotion without examination to the First Division of the First Class. No statement can be made by the Commissioners in reference to the third paragraph of the Question until they decide as to the individuals to be promoted.

  FIRST OFFENDERS.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, if his attention has been called to the recent Return concerning the application of The Probation of First Offenders Act, 1887, in 1894, 1895, and 1896, and to the fact that while at the Worship Street and West London Police Courts, mercy was exercised under the Act 605 times in those three years with only 42 relapses into crime, it was never once employed at Bow Street or Lambeth, and while it was used at Manchester Borough Sessions 376 times, and with satisfactory results in all but 48 cases, the return from Birmingham Petty Sessions is absolutely blank; and, having regard to the importance of bringing about as much uniformity as is possible in the administration of the Criminal Law, if he will consider the advisability of issuing a circular similar to that of Mr. Secretary Matthews, dated 25th April, 1892, calling the attention again of Judges, Chairmen of Quarter Sessions, Recorders, and Petty Sessional Courts to the Act?
  SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: Yes, Sir; the return in question was issued from the Home Office. The reason why the return is blank in the case of the courts mentioned is that the magistrates at those courts prefer to act under Section 16 of the Summary Jurisdiction Act, 1879, which gives them practically the same powers as the Probation of First Offenders Act, without requiring them to proceed to a conviction or to fix a period within which the person charged must come up for judgment if called upon. In fact of the 35,000 persons discharged in 1895 as first offenders, only 4,000 were dealt with under the Probation of First Offenders Act, the remainder under Section 16 of the Summary Jurisdiction Act.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENTasked to which of the Courts the right hon. Gentleman referred?
  SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: Those mentioned by the hon. Gentleman, Bow Street, Lambeth, and Birmingham.

  IRISH MAIL SERVICE.
  MR. EDWARD M'HUGH: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if the Postmaster General is aware that for the last 10 years the sorting carriage by day mail between Portadown and Derry has been worked by two sorters from the Portadown office; will he explain on what grounds one of these officers has recently been withdrawn, and replaced by a Dublin sorter who has to perform two days' work inside the 24 hours; is he aware that this change entails an additional expenditure of at least 21s. a week, and also causes. the sorting carriage to have but one officer in it on the return journey from Derry; in the event of this officer becoming sick or meeting with an accident in working the apparatus, is he aware that the return English day mail arrangements between Perry and Portadown would be completely upset; and, will he take such steps as he considers necessary to prevent such an eventuality occurring?
  MR. HANBURY: For the last ten years the sorting carriage between Portadown and Derry has been worked by two sorters from the Portadown office. One of these officers was recently replaced
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  by a Dublin sorter because, since the acceleration of the mail service between England and Ireland, some sorting work formerly done at Dublin has had to be done in the night mail train from Omagh to Dublin, and as it is necessary to employ on this duty some one acquainted with the Dublin sorting, an officer travels down from Dublin for the purpose by the day mail train. Instead of letting this officer travel down idle, it has been thought well to utilise his services on the down journey by employing him on the work hitherto performed by the junior officer from Portadown. Two officers from Dublin arc employed on alternate days, and the attendance of each is fourteen hours in two days. This arrangement (like others necessitated by the acceleration) involves additional cost, but the exact amount proper to the Portadown and Omagh section of the duty cannot at this moment be stated. A second officer is not required for sorting purposes on the earlier part of the return journey from Derry, and it has not been thought necessary to send a second officer in the train to meet a possible case of accident or illness.

  BRITISH HONDURAS.
  MR. BRODIE HOARE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether it is in contemplation that the Government of British Honduras should make a railway from Belize to the borders of Guatemala; whether it is true that the estimated cost of the railway will be £750,000, and that the route runs wholly through sparsely populated forest; whether he is aware that the interest and sinking fund necessary for the service of the loan which would be required would absorb 60 per cent. of the gross present revenue of the Colony; and whether he will consent to receive a deputation of gentlemen interested in the Colony before giving his sanction to any such scheme?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: A survey and estimate have been framed, and the estimated cost of the whole scheme, including a pier at Belize, is much as has been stated, but very much further consideration must be given to the subject before any decision can be taken.

  DOVER LICENSED HOUSES.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that on 9th April, on the sole application of one person, the Magistrates of Dover granted an extension of hours to the whole body of licensed victuallers for the three days 15th, 17th, and 19th April; whether the usual fees were paid by each of the publicans for each of the days; whether he is also aware that on the occasion of a military display on 25th June, upon a similar application being made, the Dover Magistrates declined to grant it on account of each house requiring to have a special license for an extension, but told the applicant that they would recommend the Watch Committee not to interfere with houses keeping open on that occasion; and whether he intends to take any notice of these proceedings?
  SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: I am informed that an extension of hours to all licensed houses was applied for and granted on the 25th of June, as well as on the three days of the Easter Holidays mentioned. The application on each occasion was made by one person, and no fees were charged. I do not see any ground on which I could interfere.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSONasked whether it was the fact that the right hon. Gentleman had given instructions that an extension of hours should be granted on the application of a single person?
  SIR MATTHEW WHIT E RIDLEY: No.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSIONERS.
  MR. DALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that the tenants on the Kenny Estate, County Monaghan, agreed to purchase their holdings through the Irish Land Commissioners, one of the conditions being that the tenants clear up all rents to November 1596, which they have done; whether he is aware that the receiver over the estate in question made recent application to the Court of Judge Ross for permission to sue the tenants for the May rent of 1597, and that judge Ross on the occasion censured the Irish Land Commissioners for their dilatoriness in carry-
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  ing out their engagements with the tenants; and, whether he can state when will the sale of this estate be completed to the satisfaction of the tenants?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The Land Commissioners have no knowledge of any agreements by the tenants on the estate referred to, to purchase their holdings through the Commissioners, They have not entered into engagements of any kind with the tenants. It is not the fact that the Land Judge censured the Commissioners, though he appears to have expressed regret that the sales could not be pressed forward. I may add that a request was issued towards the end of April by the Land Judge to the Commissioners for an inspection of the holdings on this estate pursuant to Section 43 of the Land Act of last year. The inspection has been completed, but the Inspectors' reports to the Land Commission have not yet been furnished.
  MR. DALYasked whether the right hon. Gentleman could say when the report of the Inspectors would be issued?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I should think that there would not be very much delay in the issuing of the report, as the inspection has been already completed, but I am not at the present time able to give a more exact answer to the hon. Member's Question.

  CHELSEA HOSPITAL.
  LORD BALCARRES: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether from time to time projects for dealing with Chelsea Hospital have been under consideration which would lead to serious changes in the pile of buildings designed by Sir Christopher Wren, involving buildings upon the surrounding grounds, which are not only necessary to the architectural effect of the hospital, but of importance to the health of the neighbourhood; whether he is aware that two large blocks of flats and residences are now in course of erection on the hospital grounds to the great detriment of the river frontage of the hospital; and whether he can give the House an assurance that no steps shall he taken to destroy or alter the hospital buildings, or to build upon any of the hospital grounds without giving the House au opportunity of expressing its views upon the subject?
  MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: There is no intention of interfering in any way with the present buildings of Chelsea Hospital, and the only buildings erected are on ground to the west of the hospital which has been for a number of years let on lease. The Commissioners have complete control over their own grounds, but there is no reason to believe that they intend to take any steps in the direction indicated by my noble Friend.

  CREWKERNE GRAMMAR SCHOOL.
  MR. E. STRACHEY: I beg to ask the Parliamentary Charity Commissioner whether the parish Councils of Misterton and Shepton Beauchamp in the county of Somerset, have called the attention of the Charity Commission to the injury done to the inhabitants of those parishes by their orders of the 26th July 1875, and 30th November 1877, whereby they are deprived of certain educational advantages at the Crewkerne Grammar School; whether the Governors of Crewkerne Grammar School have refused to join the parish councils in making an application to the Charity Commission for such alteration of the present scheme as may seem desirable and fair; whether the Charity Commissioners have any power to take any steps in the matter of their own initiative; and, if they have not, will they undertake, if any application of the Crewkerne Grammar School to alter their present scheme is made at any time, to reconsider the orders affecting the parishes of Misterton and Shepton Beauchamp?
  MR. GRANT LAWSON: The Parish Councils of Misterton and Shepton Beauchamp have recently complained of schemes made by the Charity Commissioners in 1876 and 1877, of which public notice in accordance with the Endowed Schools Acts was given in the neighbourhood at the time and against which no complaints were then received. By those Schemes Scholarships of £5 a year, previously tenable only at the University of Oxford, were made tenable at the Grammar School of Crewkerne—the next parish to Misterton. By the original gift the founder's kin had the first preference in the selection of the scholars, and Misterton the second, and Shepton Beauchamp the third. There was no limitation to the
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  poor. If the preferences were to be revived the founder's kin would take the Scholarships. Under these circumstances the Commissioners consider that the inhabitants of Misterton have gained rather than lost educational advantages by the attachment of these Scholarships to the adjacent school of Crewkerne. The Governors of that school have, so far as the Commissioners are aware, neither refused nor agreed to join in the application of the Parish Council of Misterton. The Commissioners have no power to make any scheme for these scholarships under the Charitable Trusts Acts, without an application from the Governors, and they cannot make such a scheme as the Parish Council desire under the Endowed School Acts. if the Governors make an application the Commissioners will reconsider the whole matter, but I cannot give any undertaking as to what the result of that reconsideration would be.
  MR. STRACHEYasked whether the draft schemes were sent to the Vestries of the parishes affected before being finally approved?
  MR. GRANT LAWSON: Not to the Vestries, but two copies were sent to the overseers of each of the parishes. It was advertised in three local newspapers that the scheme was to be seen in Crewkerne Town Hall and to be bought in Crewkerne. Although the matter is 20 years old, there is still at the Chief Commissioners a longlist of bodies and individuals to whom copies of the scheme were sent. It is called the Crewkerne Grammar School Scheme, but upon that list a note appears, that with special reference to the Cawsley Scholarship, copies were sent to the overseers of Misterton, Shepton Beauchamp and Ilminster.

  LOAN FUND BOARDS (IRELAND).
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland what course the Government intend to take respecting the Report on the Irish Loan Fund Boards; is legislation intended? and do the Government mean to allow depositors to be at the loss of the investments made on the security of an institution managed by a department in Dublin Castle, and having a secretary appointed by the Lord Lieutenant.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The Committee of Inquiry, in their Report of December last, made certain recommendations for the future control and management of the loan societies working in connection with the Loan Fund Board, and new rules, substantially embodying most of the recommendations of the committee, have been issued by the board to these societies. The whole question of the management of the societies has engaged the careful attention of the Loan Fund Board, and Government are also considering the question of the necessity of further legislation in connection with them. As I have already more than once pointed out, Government accept no responsibility whatever for any losses that may be incurred by depositors in the funds of loan societies. It is true that the Lord Lieutenant is empowered to appoint the secretary to the board, but the executive exercise no control over the proceedings of the board or the individual societies, all of which are locally managed. I may add that no portion of the salaries of the officers of the board, or local societies, is paid out of moneys voted by Parliament.
  MR. T. M. HEALYasked whether the right hon. Gentleman could say whether he intended to introduce legislation on the subject this session?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Certainly not this session; and I cannot give a positive answer as to whether it will be introduced next session.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING ORDERS.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether his attention has been called to the great waste, expense, and trouble caused by the annual repetition in Provisional Orders dealing with electric lighting of common form clauses; whether he will consider the desirability of bringing in a Public Bill containing model clauses dealing with electricity, on the principle of the Gas and Lands Clauses Acts; and if his Department will endeavour to keep Irish Provisional Orders by themselves, instead of incorporating them in English and Scotch Acts?
  THE PRESIDENT OF TEE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. RITCHIE,: Yes, Sir, my attention has been called to
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  the subject referred to by the hon. and learned Member, and whenever an opportunity occurs I think it is desirable that I should introduce a Clauses Consolidation Measure of the kind mentioned. As far as possible Provisional Orders dealing with electric lighting in Ireland will be grouped in separate Bills.
  MR. T. M. HEALYasked whether there was any objection on the part of the Board of Trade to transfer their powers relating to this subject to a department in Dublin?
  MR. RITCHIE: That is a very large question. It would, of course, require legislation to authorise the transfer suggested by the hon. Gentleman. I may, however, point out to the hon. Gentleman that the Board of Trade here have great experience in matters of this hind, and that it has accumulated a stock of knowledge which it would be difficult to transfer to an Irish department. ["Hear, hear!" and laughter.]

  WATERFORD AND LISMORE RAILWAY.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury (1) has he received resolutions in favour of the sale of the -Waterford and Lismore Railway to the Rosslare Company from the Corporations of Cork and Wexford, the Town Commissioners of Fermoy and Dungarvan, the County Wexford Grand Jury, the Board of Guardians of Cork, Wexford, Fermi y, Lismore, Dungarvan and Enniscorthy, and several other public bodies; and (2) have any resolutions from local authorities come to hand in favour of the sale to the Great Western Railway Company?
  MR. HANBURY: The answer to the first paragraph is yes, except that I cannot trace any resolution from the Fermoy Town Commissioners, and that the Lismore Board of Guardians have sent two contradictory resolutions. The answer to the second paragraph is no; but I have received resolutions from the Waterford Corporation, Board of Guardians, Harbour Commissioners, and Chamber of Commerce, protesting against the sale of the Treasury's interest to the Rosslare Company. The Grand Jury of County Waterford merely asked that the plans put forward by the companies who tendered, should be published.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman when he will make a statement on this subject?
  MR. HANBURY: On Monday or Tuesday probably.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has received a resolution on the subject from the Chamber of Commerce, the Board of Guardians, and the Town Council of Youghal in favour of the proposal?
  MR. HANBURYYes; I believe that is so.

  SCHOOL BOARDS (AGRICULTURAL DISTRICTS).
  MR. STANLEY LEIGHTON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he can state the number of School Boards (excluding those for London and boroughs with a population over 30,000) receiving grants under the Agricultural Rates Act 1806; the total amount of the grant certified by the Local Government Board to be payable annually to such School Boards; the average number of children in attendance in the schools of such School Boards during the year ended 31st August 1896; and what the average sum per child would be if the grant were calculated on the average number of children in attendance at school during the year referred to; and, whether, in the cases of the School Boards for Leake, Thorpe St. Peters, Stansfield, Wookey, Great Steeping, Firsby (including Irby), In-goldmells (including Addlethorpe), the amount of grants to the School Boards would, if calculated on the number of children in average attendance during the year ended 31st August 1896, be equal to an average annual sum per child ranging from 7s. 4d. to 12s.?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. T. W. RUSSELL,: The number of School Boards referred to in the Question is 2,380. The grants certified in the case of these Boards amount to £101,055. 7s. 6d. The average number of children in attendance in the schools of those School Boards during the year mentioned was 839,720. The average sum per child, if the grant were calculated on the average number of children in attendance at school during the year,
  1236
  would be 2s. 4d. The answer to the concluding Question is yes.

  CRETE.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) in regard to the action of the Sultan in sending Djevad Pasha to Crete, whether the Admirals were consulted by the representatives of the Powers as to the propriety of allowing Djevad Pasha to land in the present critical condition of affairs upon the island; and (2) if so, will he state the views of the Admirals upon the subject; and whether the Christian leaders have given notice to the Admirals that so long as the ex-Grand Vizier and the Turkish army remain in Crete they are not prepared to entertain any proposals with regard to an autonomous constitution?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. G. CURZON,: So far as we are aware the Admirals never raised any question as to the propriety of allowing Djevad Pasha to land in Crete; nor were they consulted on the point by the representatives of the Great Powers, if in the latter phrase the hon. Member refers to the Ambassadors at Constantinople. In Crete, the Admirals are themselves the representatives of the Powers. No such notice as that mentioned in the second paragraph has been reported to us.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any and, if so, what steps are being taken by the Powers to carry into effect the identic note presented to the Porte in March last, which provided for the gradual withdrawal of the Turkish troops from Crete, and whether, in view of the entire withdrawal of Greek troops under the terms of the subsequent Note, an assurance can now be given that the demand of the above-mentioned identic Note will be carried into effect without delay?
  MR. CURZON: The hon. Member has not correctly quoted the terms of the identic Note of March 5th last, which provided expressly for the concentration of the Imperial troops in the fortified places at present occupied by European detachments, as soon as the Greek troops had left the island. This concentration

  1237
  has taken place, but for some reasons, which I explained at length in my speech last week, it has not so far been found possible to proceed further with their redaction or withdrawal.

  SPANISH ANARCHISTS.
  MR. J. A. WILLOX: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether a party of Anarchists, having been sentenced to expulsion from Spain, were prohibited from landing in France, and are now on the voyage front Barcelona to Liverpool; (2) whether Her Majesty's Government are taking any steps to prevent the alleged deportation of Spanish Anarchists to the United Kingdom; and (3) what measures the Local Authorities at Liverpool can take to prevent the landing at that port of dangerous and destitute aliens, who, as in many previous instances, may, if landed, become a charge upon the local rates?
  MR. GRZON: Her Majesty's Government have received information that 28 persons suspected of Anarchist opinions, and sentenced to expulsion from Spain, have been embarked at; their desire for Liverpool in the Spanish vessel Isla de Luzon. It is understood that the French Government have protested against the deportation of Spanish Anarchists from Spain into France. On receiving information of this shipment, Tier Majesty's Government protested against it, and the Spanish Government have expressed their regret and have promised that no more shall be sent. There are no measures which the Local Authorities at Liverpool can take in the sense of the last paragraph.

  CONTEMPT OF COVET (IRELAND.)
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieu- tenant of Ireland if he is aware that a man named John White, of Dernassel, county 'Monaghan, has been under detention in Dundalk Jail since the beginning of last October, without having been brought to trial; and, will the man be speedily brought to trial or released?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am informed that White was committed to Dundalk Prison in October last for contempt under an order of the Court of
  1238
  Chancery. The responsibility for the proceedings in such cases rests altogether with the Court, and the Executive have no power to interfere in any way. The man's discharge from prison lies practically in his own hands, and if he communicates with the Court, expressing regret for his action and undertaking not to repeat the offence for which he was committed, I have no doubt the Judge would, as in other similar cases, be inclined to favourably entertain an application for his discharge.

  IRISH NATIONAL SCHOOLS.
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland will he explain why, seeing that money may be advanced to purchase a farm or a garden in connection with a non-vested national school in Ireland, money for the same purpose may not be advanced in the case of a vested school.
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The Act which provides for loans for the acquisition of land in connection with National Schools was passed in 1884, and I cannot state with certainty the reasons which may have influenced Parliament in confining the advances of money for this purpose to the case of non-vested Schools. I may observe, however, that up to the time of the Act of 1884 no provision existed whereby loans, or other form of aid, could be advanced for the erection, enlargement, or purchase of non-vested schools, whereas grants for building purposes have always been available in the case of vested schools.

  CANADIAN MAIL SERVICE.
  MR. W. O'MALLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies if, in the contract between the Canadian Government and Messrs. Peterson and Tate for the new mail service to Canada, an Irish port of call has been agreed upon; and, if not, whether the Government will consider the advisability of recommending Galway, as the port nearest Canada, and otherwise as the one possessing greater facilities for a rapid mail service than any other in the United Kingdom?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: No Irish port of call has been agreed upon for the fast mail service to Canada. The service will not commence until May, 1899.

  VACCINATION.
  MR. STRACHEY: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether a board of guardians may instruct the public vaccinators in their union to give parents the option of having their children vaccinated with calf lymph instead of human lymph?
  MR. T. W. RUSSELL: Public vaccinators are not subject to directions of the guardians in this matter; but they are enabled under the instructions of the Local Government Board (issued in January last) to vaccinate with calf lymph instead of human lymph whenever they so desire.

  RAILWAY ACCIDENT (YEOVIL JUNCTION).
  MR. STRACHEY: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the accident at Yeovil Junction, London and South Western Railway, was caused by any defect in the engine: and whether he has any information to show whether the new kind of engine reported to have been used was suitable for working on a branch line of the nature of that between Yeovil Junction and Yeovil Town Station?
  MR. RITCHIE: An inspecting officer of railways was appointed to inquire into the causes of this accident, but I have not yet received his report.

  CATHOLIC PROCESSIONS TN THE STREETS.
  COLONEL SANDYS, who was greeted with ironical Nationalist cheers, asked the Attorney General (1) whether he was aware that on Sunday 31st May, a Roman Catholic procession walked through the streets from the Roman Catholic church to the convent in the Queen's Road, Peckham, in which several Roman Catholic priests, wearing the official vestments of their order, took part; (2) that on that occasion images and flags were carried through the streets accompanied by a crossbearer, acolytes, etc., singing a hymn to the Virgin Mary, and followed by a number
  1240
  of Roman Catholics, many of whom were specially dressed for the occasion; (3) that the procession was distasteful to many persons unavoidably present as passers by; and that this is by no means the first of these processions held recently in the suburbs of London and elsewhere; (4) whether the law of this country permits such to be held outside a Roman Catholic building; and (5) if he will state whether they are legal or illegal?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER,: I am not aware of the facts stated in the first paragraph of the Question of the hon. and gallant Member. Assuming them to be correct, the processions in question were not in accordance with law. As at present advised I do not propose to take any proceedings. [Cheers.]

  JURY SERVICE.
  MR. LEWIS FRY: beg to ask the Attorney General whether he is aware that many persons liable to serve on juries at assizes and quarter sessions receive frequent summonses to serve, while other persons equally liable to serve are seldom or never summoned; whether it is the duty of the sheriff to summon, as nearly as may be in rotation, all persons whose names appear in the jury lists who are not legally exempt by reason of previous service or otherwise; And whether any steps can be taken to secure the indifferent summoning of jurymen by rotation?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: I am not aware of the facts as stated in the first paragraph of the hon. Member's Question. It is the duty of the sheriff to summon impartially all persons whose names appear in the jury lists, assuming that they are not exempt by reason of previous service or on other grounds; but, for obvious reasons, it would be undesirable that jurors should be summoned merely by rotation.

  PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES.
  MR. H. KIMBER: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether his attention has been directed to the fact that, according to the last Return of Parliamentary constituencies, the disparities between the electorates of the kingdom have greatly increased,

  1241
  and are increasing; and, whether the Government will, before next Session, adopt some means to have the question of re-distribution impartially and fairly examined with a view to legislation while the present Parliament is still young?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,: I think that the object which my hon. Friend has in view is well worthy of attention. I cannot promise that the investigation shall take place in the autumn, though I think that some investigation should take place without undue delay.

  DEPORTATION OF PAUPERS.
  MR. DALY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, when framing the promised Local Government Bill for Ireland next Session, he will consider the desirability of settling the Irish grievance of deporting paupers from Great Britain to Ireland?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I am afraid that there will be difficulty in introducing provisions dealing with this subject in the Local Government Bill for Ireland, because among other reasons, the question affects the Scotch Office more than the Irish Office. But the Chief Secretary will consider the question when framing the Bill, and if the subject can be dealt with no doubt he will make proposals next Session.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The House may remember that when I made a statement about business I said that there were a certain number of quite uncontentious private Bills which would be cut out by the rule I proposed to the House, unless they were technically made Government Orders. I have made inquiries and consulted gentlemen on both sides of the House, and perhaps I may be permitted to enumerate the Bills which, as far as I know, are regarded generally as quite uncontentious. There is the Infant Life Protection Bill which has passed the Standing Committee; the Archdeaconry of London Bill, which is in progress in Committee; the Yorkshire Coroners Bill, also in progress; the District Councils Water Supply Bill, which is in Committee; and the Licensing (Scotland) Amendment Bill. There is
  1242
  one Bill of a purely permissive characters which has been strongly pressed upon me as important for two or three counties in England—a Bill giving facilities to the district councils to make arrangements with the county councils about making roads; and I am informed that the Local Government Board approve of it. If these Bills could be passed without opposition it would be for the general convenience.
  SIR HENRY FOWLERasked whether the Local Government Board had approved of the District Council Water Supply Bill? If it were so, he should not object to the Bill proceeding.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid that he would inquire. The Bill had reached the Committee stage, and had therefore passed second reading after midnight.
  Mr. T. M. HEALY: Is it the fact that not a single Bill affecting Ireland will pass this House in the Jubilee year?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: No, Sir. At all events I hope that the Judicature Bill will be passed. [Ironical Nationalist laughter.]
  SIR CHARLES CAMERONasked what Bills would be taken to-morrow, and in what order?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The Scotch Bills will come first. I have not netted the order.
  SIR CHARLES CAMERONsaid that the remaining clauses of the Public Health (Scotland) Bill would be got through Committee quickly and it would be a convenience if that Bill were taken first.
  Mr. J. CALDWELL: I believe it will be taken first. [Much laughter.]
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked when the report on the Foreign Office would be, taken?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I propose taking Report of Supply to-night, and if it is not concluded, again on Thursday. It is simply a question for the House to determine how much time it will devote to the Votes and how much to Report. If progress is made in Supply I shall be glad to bring on the Report of the Foreign Office Vote at a convenient hour

  WATERFORD, DUNGARVAN AND LISMORE RAILWAY.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Might I ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury whether, having postponed the matter of the sale of the Waterford, Dungarvan, and Lismore Railway, he also intends to postpone the Report of the Board of Works Vote?
  MR. HANBURY: I do not think there is any necessary connection between the two subjects. I should very much prefer to take the Vote at once, but I am constantly asked to postpone it in deference to the wishes of the localities interested and of hon. Members opposite. I should propose to take the Vote tonight unless there are objections, and then I should postpone it.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: What we want, is an opportunity to discuss this question. Is it so difficult a question as to require so long a time to settle it? Do I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say he had made up his mind in regard to the Railway?
  MR. HANBURY: I think it will be an advantage to have it discussed if there is any difference of opinion upon it amongst Irish Members. I hope to take the Vote to-night.

  ORDERS OF THE DAY.

    SUPPLY.
    [TWENTIETH ALLOTTED DAY.]
    Considered in Committee.
    [The CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS, Mr. J. W. LOWTHER, in the Chair.]

    ARMY ESTIMATES, 1897–8
    1. Motion made, and Question proposed,—
    "That a sum, not exceeding £2,069,200, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge for tie Supply and Repair of 'Warlike and other Stores, will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898."
    THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. POWELL-WILLIAMS,said that the
    1244
    Leader of the House had promised that a statement should be made on this Vote as to the minimum rates of wages paid to artisans and labourers in the Government factories. Before making that statement he wished to remind the Committee of what occurred last year. At that time he stated that, whilst in his opinion the Government ought to pay all classes of workmen whom it employed the full current rate paid in the various districts in which they worked, they should not go beyond it, because to do so would be to make a contribution to a certain class of workmen out of the general moneys of the taxpayers. The Board of Trade had made careful inquiry into the matter and had furnishe1 the War Office with valuable information, and beyond that the War Office had made its own inquiries which went to confirm the information afforded by the Board of Trade. The information placed at their disposal h the Board of Trade being of a confidential character, he must be excused from giving information in detail with regard to the figures. The inquiry extended to about 3,000 workmen employed in the Pimlico and the Woolwich districts, and, roughly speaking, it appeared that of these about one-third were receiving more than 24s. a week, about one-third were receiving 24s., and about one-third less than 24s.
    MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: What classes of workmen?
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSsaid they included what were known as engineers' labourers and warehouse porters. It must always be borne in mind that those labourers were paid not for 48 hours a week, as was the case in the Government factories, but for 53 hours. In dealing with the figures in the aggregate it appeared that the proportion of men in the Government factories who were receiving less than 24s. a week was smaller than in the establishments outside as to which they received particulars. It was said that everything did not rest upon the number of hours a man worked, but, while admitting the force of that observation, he submitted that the number of hours was, after all, an essential condition of his pay. In calculating what wages a workman in Government factories received it was necessary to take into account the advantages other than

    1245
    wages which he got. He put those advantages, after having gone carefully into the matter, as being worth at least 1s. a week. He recollected that Parliament would probably this year pass an Employers' Liability Bill, which. would give men outside the Ordnance Factory almost equal advantages to those inside, and in these circumstances there must be some modification in the calculation. How did he make those advantages up to 1s. a week? In the Ordnance Store Department and in the clothing factory at Pimlico the employment was almost continuous—that was to say, a man once in remained practically as long as he was able to do any service at all, and as the result of that he became entitled to a gratuity on leaving, which was between 20s. and 24s. for every year of his service. A simple calculation would show that, if a man, got 24s. for every year of his service, that was equivalent to a weekly payment of 5d. a. week.
    MR. HUDSON KEARLEY: How many years before he is eligible?
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: He has to serve seven years before he is eligible for the gratuity if he is retired on reduction. At the Woolwich Arsenal about 50 per cent. of the men in employment would be entitled if they left the service to a gratuity such as he spoke of.
    MR. BUXTON: What proportion do stay seven years?
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: In the Ordnance Factory at Woolwich about 50 per cent, were entitled to gratuity. A great many, however, serve on for 15 years, and become entitled to a gratuity in any case. In the Store Department the proportion was quite up to 90 per cent., if not more. Almost all were men entitled to the gratuity. In addition to that the men obtained medical attendance and sick pay and liberal privileges with regard to holidays. Taking these advantages into account the gain was equivalent to 1s. a week to all men receiving 19s. a week in the Government departments. The result of the inquiry proved two things—first of all, that there was no established rate in any of the districts near London in which the Government factories were situated of 24s. a week for a 48 hours week. The Inquiry also showed that the Government minimum rate of 19s.
    1246
    and 19s. 6d. was too low. [Cheers.] The figures which the Department of the Board of Trade had collected showed that the accepted current rate for the class of labour with which they were dealing in the various districts where factories were 'situated was about 22s. The Secretary for War had come to the conclusion, therefore, that the wages of these men ought to be raised from 19s. and 19s. 6d. to an equivalent of 22s.; and he had to state to the Committee that the Secretary for War proposed to raise the wages of all these men from their present amount to 21s. a week, which, with the advantages they received, would equal 22s. per week.
    SIR C. DILKE: That includes Enfield and Waltham Abbey?
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: I am dealing only with the wages in the districts near London where these factories are situated.
    SIR C. DILKE: "These factories" are ambiguous.
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: I am speaking all through of the Clothing Department at Pimlico, the Ordnance Factory and Store Department at Woolwich. The annual aggregate addition to the men's wages would amount to between £5,000 arid £6,000. The Secretary for War proposed to begin the higher payment on the first pay day in next month.
    SIR C. DILKEasked whether any statement was to be made with regard to any other Votes. He had asked as to Waltham Abbey and Enfield; was nothing to be Said about them?
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSthought that subject would come better on the Ordnance Factories Vote.
    SIR C. DILKEpointed out that the Chairman of Committees had expressed the opinion that the question of wages should be discussed for the sake of convenience on one Vote.
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSsaid he had no statement to make with reference to wages at Waltham Abbey and Enfield.
    SIR C. DILKEasked whether the Admiralty was going to say anything about the minimum· of 19s. at Deptford?
    MR. KEARLEYsaid that the Navy Estimates would subsequently be taken, and it would be inconvenient to go over the same ground again in debating the matter of wages on both Votes.
    THE FIRST LORD OF TIE ADMIRALTY (Mr. GOSCHEN,said that the dockyards were not on all fours with the Army Estimates.
    MR. W. WOODALLreferred to the statement of the First Lord of the Treasury in favour of a general discussion on the wages question on one Vote, and congratulated the Government on the decision at which they had arrived.
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSsaid that the First Lord of the Treasury stated that the wages of the War Department in all its branches might be discussed on this particular Vote, but nothing beyond that.
    MR. WOODALLasked whether a Report could be furnished as to the economic results of the changes made by the late Government? The Government had had four years' experience of the 48 hours week, and he should like the hon. Gentleman to tell the Committee what had been the economic outcome of that change, and how it had affected the cost of production of warlike stores and clothing. Was it true that the wages of piece-workers had been quite as large, if not larger, than in the week of longer hours? Was it true that there had been no need to employ more day-wage workers? Or, as was the case during the short time the late Government had the responsibility, had the greater punctuality, sobriety, and improved health of the workers, and the fact that they were able to begin duty after breakfast instead of before, enabled them to get through the same amount of work and to improve the quality of that work? Was it true, also, that the sick pay and medical attendance had been less under the 48 hours week? He spoke now particularly with regard to the Ordnance Factory. Further, it was anticipated, and, he believed, realised, that there would be a very important saving in fuel, wear and tear, lubricators, etc. Information on these points would greatly assist the Committee. The First Lord of the Treasury, in an important statement made the other day, suggested that a larger amount of employment should be provided for time-expired soldiers in the Ordnance Stores. There was a great deal to be said for that course, but he hoped care would be taken to guard against competition with the
    1248
    ordinary labourer in the rate of wages. At one stroke an addition of 2s. 6d. was made to the wages of the Ordnance Store labourers by the late Government. Would the hon. Gentleman tell the Committee what had been the result of that increase? Was it true that a better class of labour had been obtained at no additional outlay? His own conviction was that the service was improved, and that in Ordnance Factories and Stores the change had cost the Government nothing, while it had greatly improved the status and general well-being of the people employed. ["Hear, hear!"] The hon. Gentleman estimated that the proposed change he had now announced would cost from £5,000 to £6,000 a year. He himself was sanguine enough to hope that if wisely administered it need cost nothing at all. Some information with regard to places other than Woolwich had been asked for. It had been repeatedly urged that the cost to the labourer for his dwelling and for the necessaries of life in Woolwich were exceptionally high, and he believed the cost of living at Pimlico was something less than at Woolwich. At any rate, there must have been some consideration of that kind which induced the late Government to leave the minimum wage at Pimlico at 19s., while making it 19s. 6d. at the Ordnance Store and 20s. at the Ordnance Factory. The late Admiralty increased at one step the wages of its labourers to 20s. It was estimated at the time that the advantages enjoyed by the labourers under the Admiralty were worth 6d. a week, while the War Office advantages cost a shilling. The Admiralty fixed 20s. as their wage, and adding 6d. made 20s. 6d., which accounted for the curious minimum fixed by the War Office of 19s. 6d. He hoped that some allowance had been made for the necessity of generally raising the standard of pay to the classes who were in grades above that of the unskilled labourer; because it was obvious that where a difference of 2s., 3s., and 4s. a week had hitherto marked the status of the skilled workman as compared with the unskilled, some change would have to be made in the higher grades also. He should like to have some assurance that this was contemplated, and that the chancre was not limited to the unskilled labourers or to the engineers' helpers and warehouse porters.
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: I should not like my hon. Friend to be under any misapprehension. I am dealing solely with the minimum wage. I have not in any way dealt with men receiving for piece-work or day-work wages above the minimum shown to be earned in the districts to which I referred.
    MR. WOODALL: My hon. Friend need not be told that he cannot let the matter rest there. He will have to meet many of those whose status is a little higher than the particular class with which he is dealing at the present moment. Continuing, the hon. Member said it would be most material to the argument of his hon. Friends the Members for Newington and Devonport if the Committee had information as to the practical results of the changes made by the late Government, changes which were made, he was bound to say, in the spirit of stewards acting in the general interest of those whose funds they were employing, and experiments which it would be a great satisfaction to the country to know had been justified by results.
    COLONEL HUGHESsaid it would be ungracious on his part if he did not express his appreciation of the proposals made by the Under Secretary. Although the advance in wages was comparatively small, yet it was welcome, for it was difficult for hon. Members to conceive what a difference a small sum even of 1s. 6d. a week made to a working man with a wife and family. He was thankful indeed for the advance, and from the observations which had been made by the hon. Gentleman, it appeared to have been made on the right lines of ascertaining and being guided by the wages of the district. They could not make a rule to apply all over the country. It was quite true they had some consideration for London as a district by itself; for in London rents and rates were exceptionally high, and it was for that reason that the late War Office and other spending establishments considered London as a separate district, demanding a higher rate of pay, and that he regarded as a great improvement over the old method of mixing up the whole country altogether. There were one or two matters to which he wished to allude, though they were not of very great importance. With regard to the bonus given after 15 years' service, which the Financial
    1250
    Secretary said was payable in any case, a man was entitled to this bonus if he left the service in consequence of reduction or ill-health after 15 years, but he could not leave of his own accord and get the bonus. He thought the advantage was estimated at 1s., but, in his opinion, that was an exceptional amount. The late Government appeared to have estimated it, as he understood, at 6d. per week.
    MR. WOODALL: Oh, no! It actually cost the Government something like 1s. per man per week.
    COLONEL HUGHESsaid he thought the advantage was calculated by the local societies at about 6d. per week. Under all the circumstances, he thought it would be wise on his part to accept the offer made with gratitude, though, of course, without any pledge as to the future—they could let the future take care of itself. He would remind the hon. Gentleman that only in May last in the Labour Reports issued by the Board of Trade, it was stated that 20,000 builders' labourers in London had obtained an advance from 6½d. to 7d. an hour, or 28s. a week; but the labourers they were speaking of were to have only 21s. a week, and he hoped· that a still further advance would be made to them. What the Government had done was a movement in the right direction, but he hoped that they would go still further when opportunity offered. The cases of the men employed at Devonport, Plymouth, and other places in the country must all be judged on their merits, and he was prepared to advocate that justice should be done in every district. Each ease must be settled according to the current rate of wages paid in the district, He was glad that they had obtained that day a distinct declaration that the case of the London workmen would be treated separately. The wages in London would always be a shilling or two a week higher than in the country.
    CAPTAIN NORTONrose to move the reduction of the Vote by £100. He said that the statement of the Financial Secretary to the War Office did not disappoint him. The Government had acted as he expected they would. They had given with grudging hand a small increase of wages to Government employés. But this did not meet the demand of the employés, who

    1251
    asked for simple justice, namely, the payment of the current rate of wages in the locality in which they were employed. There was no Member of the House who could be more thoroughly convinced than he was of the value of a high state of discipline in a Government Department, whether naval, military, or civil. Therefore if he believed for a moment that these men were making use of their organisations or political power with the object of taking an unfair advantage of the Government, he would support the bitter against them. All that the Financial Secretary had said that day was said last year. In his opinion the Government for years past had lagged behind other employers of labour. In 1890 the then Leader of the House declared that the House of Commons would not desire to underpay any servants of the Crown, but notwithstanding the Government had continued for seven years to underpay these workmen. Then in 1895 the First Lord of the Treasury put in his programme at the time of the General Election, "Fair wages to Government workmen." The right hon. Gentleman had thereby put himself in this dilemma. If by the expression "fair" the right hon. Gentleman meant the Trades Union rate of wages, the rate of wages current in a locality, he had been false to his election programme. If, on the other hand, he did not mean the rate of wages current in the locality, he was guilty of tricking the working Men of the country, because he must have known that they would interpret "fair wages" to mean Trades Union wages. Fair wages were the wages paid by the best employers in a given locality. He warned the right hon. Gentleman that the day for tricking labour had gone by. The working men of this country had its political future in their hands, and labour tricked, insulted, and defied, would take note of the action of the Government. The Financial Secretary to the War Office said last year that if it could be shown that the Department was not paying the current rate of wages in the Woolwich district, the wages would be raised to that level; but the hon. Gentleman had not kept his promise. In considering this question the expense of house accommodation could not be left out of view. A man with a family could. not obtain a decent dwelling at Woolwich for less than 8s. 6d., whilst
    1252
    at Chatham he could obtain one for 4s. 6d, and at Pembroke for 3s. The Government always trotted out the argument of supply and demand, but by their action they had really abandoned that experiment. In repeating it, therefore, they were stultifying themselves. The Financial Secretary, quoting the statement of an employer at Woolwich, had told then that there was no difficulty in getting labour at the rate of 21s. for 54 hours. But if they chose would the the Government have any difficulty in men for 18s. a week? The House through such Committees as the Sweating Committee and the Current Rate of Wages Committee, had declared over and over again that it desired to have the best quality of labour and would pay the top price for it, and if they failed to do that they would be laying up a debt which they had no right to lay up for future generations to pay. Eighty years ago Sir Robert Peel stated that it was no uncommon thing for children eight years of age to work for 15 hours a day. Had the country benefited by that? Who were the descendants of those children? They were people stunted in body and mind, the victims of the vices engendered by distress and want of food, the wastrels of our community, the criminal classes. It was their duty not to intensify this sad state of things. It was admitted, he understood, this year, that the workmen employed in the Ordnance Factories were not without skill. Last year the Financial Secretary to the War Office told them that he had obtained information from several employers of labour at Woolwich, and particularly from Messrs. Johnson, who said that they paid 6½d., but that ordinary labourers would get 6d. only, and that even these must be full-grown, active men, and these men, the hon. Member said, would not compare in any degree with the lowest class of labourers employed at the Ordnance Factories. He knew that in Government Factories it was necessary to enter a number of youths. He admitted that consideration should be shown to the sons of employés in these factories, but he maintained that the moment they arrived at such an age that they could go into the open market and get the current rate of wages, it was the duty of the Government to pay them

    1253
    at that rate. It was said that the Government were trustees for the taxpayers. That might be so, but the contention was that this underpaid labour was not economical in any sense. The hon. Member said that they were
    "going to take the taxes paid, say, by a Dorsetshire labourer, in order to enhance the wages of a certain class of workmen in London."
    ["Hear, hear!"] The hon: Gentleman cheered his own ignorance. ["Order, order!"] If he did not prove that, he would withdraw it. The hon. Gentleman spoke of the Dorsetshire labourer as getting 14s. a week, while on the average they got 10s. or 11s. a week, or 12s. without a cottage.
    MR. WINGFIELD DIGBY: I beg pardon; all my labourers get 15s. a week.
    CAPTAIN NORTONsaid that did not shake his statement in the slightest degree. The Report of the Agricultural Commission returned the amount at 10s., 11s., or 12s. a week. What the hon. Member said only strengthened his argument. [Laughter.] Then the Financial Secretary went on to: say that—
    "if they were to adopt a principle of that kind they would very soon hear from the Dorsetshire labourer, who would want to know when his turn was coming."
    Did the hon. Gentleman suppose that he sympathised only with the Government employé? His object was to force the Government to adopt a high standard of wages for unskilled labour, in order that the rate of wages throughout the length and breadth of the land might be raised, and other landlords, not so generous as the hon. Gentleman who had just interrupted, might come up to his standard. He now came to the gist of the whole matter—the current rate of wages. How could it be said that 24s. was not the current rate, more especially at Woolwich? Did not the minority report of the. Labour Commission fix on 24s. as the standard rate for unskilled labour throughout London? They maintained it was impossible for a man to bring up a family on a less sum. A few years ago the Labour Department of the Board of Trade were called on to report
    1254
    upon the current rate of wages for unskilled labour at Woolwich. Could the hon. Gentleman say that they reported it at less than 6d? He dared not say so. The hon. Gentleman could not deny that they reported it at between 6d. and 6½d. He now came to the hours question. The hon. Gentleman rode off last year on this question, although it was distinctly laid down, when the 48 hours week was adopted, that the reduction in hours would in no way affect wages. The hon. Member said last year that 24s. was paid for 53 hours, and at that rate he would have to pay 21s. 9d. for 48 hours; so that the Government had been defrauding the poorest class of their employés of 2s. 3d. a week. Much had been said of the advantages of Government employment. There were certain advantages connected with it. The Government never went bankrupt, and it had a. certain prestige; but how should that prestige be used? Not in obtaining men under the rate paid by the best private employers, but in order to get the cream of the working classes in every department. Continuity of employment and the prospect of advancement were also urged as advantages; but they applied in the same way in private firms. But how about the disadvantages? Even the lowest class of labourers were bound to keep up a respectable appearance, and that was looked upon by the average workman with a large family to keep, who was getting 19s. 6d. a week, as a distinct disadvantage. Then there were the periods of slackness to contend with, and when stocktaking took place there was no making up time. Some time last year certain Members of the House saw a number of men from Government departments, and they seemed to be "very fair and very respectable representatives of unskilled labour. [" Hear, hear !"] But those Members were astonished, grieved, and shocked at, the state of things disclosed to them. These men stated that many of their mates hawked the streets at night as costermongers, that their wives were sweated in steam laundries, and that in some cases their young women were tempted to lead dissolute lives. And all that in Christian England, in a country which spent thousands and thousands yearly in missions to savages ! ["Hear, hear!"] Could

    1255
    anything be worse than that a great and powerful and wealthy country like this should refuse to those who helped to make its greatness the just reward of their labour? He made an appeal to the self-interest of the country. It was for the good of the country that these men should be fairly and justly dealt with. It was as true to-day as ever it was that the improvement of man improved all that man produced. A few weeks ago the greatness, the wealth, the extent and the magnificence of this country was brought vividly to the minds of rich and poor alike. If, after the recent enjoyments and rejoicings, there was a still small voice telling them of the thousands living in squalor, their children half starving, could they wonder? He thought that every right-minded man would say, "give us one battleship less and pay the people a better wage." He begged to move.
    MR. C. J. DARLINGsaid that if anything was less likely to conduce to the advantage of the employés than the speech of the hon. Member he should like to hear of it. He could not imagine it. It was the kind of oration addressed to the late Government, whose follower he was. At more than one election since the hon. Member had given hem his support. He wanted to know from the hon. Member opposite whether when the wages in the War Office were increased, those in the Admiralty were or were not raised accordingly?
    MR. BUXTONsaid, as to the simultaneous rise, everyone agreed that it should take place throughout all their departments. In his recollection the same rise took place in the Admiralty which took place in the War Department. It was felt that when the War Office made the advance, the Admiralty ought not to lag behind. He certainly did not desire to make any labour question of this kind a party question. The Government could not lag behind public opinion. He did not think that the hon. Member opposite was correct in stating that the position taken up at the time was that the rate of 19s. 6d. was to be the maximum. A considerable increase was already pointed out. It was quite obvious that a further rise would take place before long. He was glad to find that the hon. Member now admitted that the current rate of wages in a district ought
    1256
    to be accepted as the accurate one, and should be acted upon by the different Government Departments. They were right in taking the advice of the Labour Department. They had accepted the authority, and he did not want to dwell upon that, but he did want to ask the hon. Member on what basis he had founded this 21s. He said they must take the current rate of wages in a district. The Government employer should set a good example, and, therefore, in considering what was the rate of wages they ought not to take the lowest rate. The hon. Member ought to look at it from a generous point of view. [" Hear, hear !"] He understood that the Under Secretary cheered that statement. Then he asked him on what basis was the current rate in London fixed at 21s.? The current rate was 24s. ["No, no!"] Surely the average was 24s. He contended that whatever the number of hours the men worked they should receive on the average 24s. a week if the same work was done.
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMS: Do I understand the hon. Member to say that you are to pay men precisely the same wages whether you employ them long hours or short?
    MR. BUXTONsaid that was not the point. The eight hours a day was given to Government employés as a boon and advantage without reduction of wages. if they were now to take that into account they would he taking away in one hand what they gave with the other. On the whole, the War Office were satisfied with the eight hours a day experiment, but this eight hours a day ought not to come into the question in this matter. The Financial Secretary to the War Office had said that the Departmental privileges of the men would be equivalent to 1s. a week. Last year he argued on the basis of their being worth 6d. a week. Putting aside the question of hours, the rate for unskilled labour was substantially 24s. a week. For the last seven years 6d. an hour for unskilled labour of all classes had been the recognised rate in London. He was grateful to the War Office for the concession which had been made, but it was not a final and satisfactory solution of the question. The Government were ill-advised to take two steps where they might

    1257
    have taken one. The whole sum involved was only £5,000 or £6,000. They should have accepted the rate of 24s. a-week for unskilled labour, deducting such privileges as actuarial calculation showed t hat the men really received.
    COLONEL LOCKWOODsaid that the noire he heard of this question, the more true he felt it to be that it was quite impossible to give satisfaction to the demands made. His constituents appeared to have been pointedly left out of this rise; but he would not complain of that at the moment, because no doubt some statement would he made; and, of course, the cost of living at Enfield and Waltham was not so great as at Woolwich and Deptford. The speech of the hon. Member for Newington seemed to him to fall flat, because the hon. Member had forgotten that the Government might take the very steps which they had taken. He thought the Government had dealt generously with I he men; but he should like to know whether any increase might be expected at Enfield. He also wished to call attention to the present system at the factories, under which the man who joined on the the 3rd June 1870 was entitled to a pension, while the man who joined on the 5th. of June 1870, was not entitled to a pension. The same wages were paid to both men. his constituents complained that the Treasury had neglected to carry out the Act of 1859 in its integrity, especially Section 2 and Section 17. When men joined they were given a book of rules, but no mention was made of the fact that they must have a Civil Service certificate to Le entitled to a pension. His constituents thought that pensions should be given rather for long and efficient service than for Civil Service certificates. What was the Report of the Committee that had been inquiring into the pension system? And was there any prospect of an extension of the scheme?
    SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid that he had expected hat much more would be done after the promises made by the First Lord of the Treasury last year. Votes had been postpone I in order that statements might be made, and now the concession was found to amount to very little. The Government hail to some extent met the worst point. They raised the minimum wage
    1258
    where it was disgracefully low and where the cost of living was high, but they had not gone far enough. No doubt differences must be made between Woolwich and Enfield; but he found that the cost of living both at Waltham and Enfield was high, and a rise ought to be conceded there. He was convinced, with the hon. Member for Newington, that the people of this country desired to see fair treatment of labour in relation to Government work, and that it was a scandal that the Government should impose on their contractors terms which they were not prepared to carry out themselves in their own work. Whenever the question of Enfield and Waltham came to be discussed, there was something more than the wages of the men to be considered. There were a great number of boys and girls employed at those factories, and he was convinced that, although there, was no great scandal, although the wages were not very low indeed, and although the work was not very hard indeed, still the extent to which boy labour was resorted to and the wages which were paid to girls in connection with the cordite works were not so satisfactory as they ought to be. In the Small Arms Factory there were a great number of men who were earning just over 19s. a week, and that for work of a peculiarly wretched character. It was not very hard or laborious, but it was work where no fires could be employed in winter. Then in the powder mills and in the cordite works the wages Were also very low, and in the cordite works there was an enormous amount of boy labour employed—he thought au undue proportion of boy labour. In the Government gun-cotton works, too, the wages of he girls were not on the scale they ought to be, having regard to the wages paid outside. The work was of a very dangerous character, and he did not think the wages paid were sufficient. It was useless to go into great detail on these questions, and he only mentioned these points as instances which had come under his knowledge in the course of the inquiries he hail made, and which showed that there was ground for an inquiry wider than that which up to the present had been made by the Government. He agreed that it would have been better not to have made two bites at the cherry, but to have made a larger

    1259
    mid more complete inquiry and a fuller statement to the House that clay. It was almost impossible to consider the Woolwich increase without considering also the case of Deptford. The case which had been put by several hon. Members of the Government paying less than they forced their contractors to pay had been very powerfully brought to his knowledge by certain facts connected with the Victualling Yard at Deptford. He could prove that the contractors paid the men, probably fur a slightly longer day's work, but the amount of work turned out being the same, 26s., while the Government only paid 19s. 6d He was sure the desire of the country was that these very low rates should be raised, and that the Government should set a proper example and should, at mill events, pay quite as high a scale, if not a higher scale, than that which they forced their workmen to pay.
    SIR JOHN BAKERsaid he did not blame the Government for following in the footsteps of the previous Government, and making these advances gradually, but he urged on the Government that they could not consider this as a final settlement. It was impossible, the average rate of wages being 24s., that these men, who were certainly on an equality with every other section of the class to which they belonged, should be content with the lower wage which the Government had now given. The suggestion that they were to be estimated in their labour by the argument that 48 hours was a reduction of wages would be received with indignation. That was contrary to experience; it was contrary to the statements made by the authorities at the Admiralty, and it was contrary to all local experience all over the country, which went to prove that the 48 hours were as valuable to the employers as the 53. He was astounded when he heard the Financial Secretary, with his experience of the class with which he was dealing, name that as a circumstance to be reckoned with in the case of the wages which the Government had now given. These gradual increases gave satisfaction to the men, but he hoped that next year the right hon. Gentleman would give the wage which was expected by the labourers as a minimum—namely, 24s. He thought that was a reasonable amount if a man had to maintain his wife and family, and
    1260
    no employer ought to give his workmen less. If the hon. Gentleman knew as much as they did of the difficulties, the troubles, and the sufferings of the class they represented owing to the low rate of wages when sickness and want of employment came, he would at once see that, whilst the Government had pledged themselves to be model employers, they were simply doing a duty to the country in themselves fulfilling the promise which had over and over again been repeated from that Bench.
    SIR ARTHUR FORWOODthought it was unfortunate that this question should be brought up so frequently in the House, and that the employés of the Government should have their minds disturbed from year to year, and really encouraged to go on agitating for further additional rates of pay. They had been told that the lower class of labour in London averaged a weekly rate of 24s., but they had not been told that though it was nominally that rate, comparatively few men earned the 24s. a week. The labouring work in London, as in other large tow its, was of a more or less casual kind, while the labourers in the employ of Government obtained a regular continuity of work, and if they were paid 3s. 6d a day, they were better off than the bulk of the general labourers of London who nominally received Is. a day. Therefore, he believed that the Government in making this advance to the labourers of the lower class in their employ had held the scale fairly and had done what was reasonable and just. They were told that they must have regard to rents and to other circumstances of living. If that argument was to hold good it simply meant that the House, in every additional Vote it gave to the labourers in Government employ, was putting so much into the pockets of the landlords. That was the only logical result of the argument put before the Committee. The reduction of the hours from 53 a week to 48 was certainly a reduction in the output of work clone by the men, and, argue as they might, it must be admitted that, if they paid for 48 hours the same rate that they paid for 53, the country was paying a larger sum for the work which had to be performed. The time had arrived when those who came from the districts where the taxation was found with which to pay these

    1261
    wages should come to the front and say, "Whilst we wish to see fair and adequate wages paid, we ask the Government to hold the scale justly as between those who provide the money and those who receive it."
    MR. KEARLEYsaid that to-night the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had rather overstated his stock arguments, for he had spoken as though those who had taken part in the discussion had huge bodies of Government labourers in their constituencies, and therefore had some direct motive in bringing up this question. It so happened that almost all the Gentlemen who had spoken to-night did not represent this class of labour at all. It was perfectly well known that the right hon. Gentleman was an enemy of this class of labour, and that during his tenure of office at the Admiralty he did more to aggravate discontent by the miserable treatment of the Government employés in question than any man who had ever had:1 seat in the House of Commons. He adduced the arguments he had employed just now to justify retaining the minimum wage at 15s. a week.
    SIR A. FORWOODremarked that he was responsible for the minimum being raised from 15s. to 18s. and 19s.
    MR. KEARLEYsaid that the right hon. Gentleman made the concession very ungenerously. Would he deny that when the labourers were getting 15s. he said the Government could get plenty of men, and there was no reason why they should pay more money? That was the Gentleman who now asked the Government not to pay any regard to the importunities of those Members who represented Government labour. So evil was the right hon. Gentleman in his treatment of this labour that he lost to the Conservatives at the General Election of 1892 half the dockyard seats. For the right hon. Gentleman personally be had the highest respect, and he regretted extremely he continued in this course.
    MR. EDWARD MORTONsaid the Government had announced that they would increase by 1s. 6d. the minimum wage in the factories at Woolwich and Pimlico. There were districts in which the labourers in the employ of the War Office were receiving even a smaller minimum wage than that. from which the rise had been promised. In Woolwich
    1262
    and Pimlico the minimum wage was 19s. 6d., but in his constituency there were Government employés who were receiving 18s. 6d. The difference of 1s. was justified, it was argued, by the fact that the cost of living was greater in London than in Devonport. Rent was one of the chief items in the cost of living. He did not know whether rent of rooms at Woolwich was higher or lower than that of rooms at Devonport, but if it was higher the difference between Woolwich and Devonport was less than that between Devonport and any other place where there were Government employés. The cost of living at Devonport was enormously increased by rent. A man could not get three unfurnished rooms there for less than 6s. a week, so that a married man receiving the minimum wage of 18s. 6il. would have to pay a third of his earnings for house room alone. The result was that many married men who might reasonably have three rooms for themselves and families, lived in two rooms, and sometimes in one. He admitted it was not the Government's fault but the fault of the very worst system of landlordism that was to be found On the surface of the civilised globe. Practically there was only one landlord in Devonport, and as long as the Government were able to induce workmen to serve them in Devonport, the landlord was able to beep up the rent to almost any degree he liked. The result was that the people were worse housed than the people anywhere else. The Government employés were ground between the upper millstone of landlordism and the nether millstone of the low rate of pay. He hoped the War Office would consider the advisability of raising the minimum wage at Devonport, where the cost of living was something over the 18s. 6d. at which it stood at present; and furthermore, in fixing the scale of pay where pensioners were employed, he hoped they would recognise that pension earned in previous employment differed from that in which the workman was at present engaged, was really deferred pay, and therefore ought not to be taken into account in estimating what the wage ought to be in his present employment.
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSsaid the particular point referred to by the hon. Member had not been before him, but he would undertake to look into the case.

    1263
    But in regard to the remainder of his argument, he submitted that if the Government were to adjust wages in accordance with whether the conditions of life were expensive or otherwise, it would be impossible to reach anything like finality in the matter. The hon. Member apparently failed to see that if wages were to be increased because there were grasping landlords in a particular place, such increase would only enable the landlords to increase their grasp.
    MR. KEARLEYsaid the Government were already pledged, in places where rents were abnormal, to give some concession.
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSwas not aware of anything of the sort. He only knew that the First Lord last year undertook that the War Office should consult the Board of Trade in relation to the minimum wages paid in the district, and having regard to all the conditions of the case, that was the only safe ground. The pension system to which the hon. and gallant Member for Essex referred, was abolished as from a certain day. If a man came in before that day he would be entitled to a pension; if the day after, he would not. All these cases of abolition involved hardship in this or that case, but this it was impossible to avoid. The Report of the Departmental Committee on pensions bad, he admitted, been long delayed. It was even now only in draft, and had not been before the Secretary of State. He believed, however, the Committee would recommend that no scheme of pensions could be established unless the men were willing to make a substantial contribution towards it, and it had been ascertained that that would not meet their wishes. As to the economical results of the 48 hours system in relation to the cost of output, he could only say that it was impossible to answer the question. If the Ordnance Factory from year to year were employed in turning out the same class of article, and seldom varying the character of its output, then probably the balance-sheet would tell whether the reduction of hours had increased the cost of output, but the case was entirely different where they had to deal with an immense factory which in all its branches was seldom for a long time together employed upon one particular pattern or
    1264
    class of article. As regarded the class of operatives who now present themselves for employment in the Ordnance Stores, he did not think there had been any change whatever.
    MR. WOODALLpressed the hon. Gentleman a little further in regard to the results of the 48 hours system. Had the piece work rates to be advanced or the number of day wage workers to be increased under the 48 hours' week? Was the health and punctuality of the men improved by the change?
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSbelieved it to be a fact that the amount of sick pay had diminished, and this was an indication that the men were in better health. But the hon. Gentlemen must not claim this as a benefit applying to reduction of hours. If he did he would find himself in conflict with the extremely active local body who said that it was due to the better sanitation of the district. It had not been necessary to increase the piece work grades. Having introduced the Board of Trade into this Inquiry, the result of their figures corresponded almost exactly with the result of the figures which the Department obtained independently.
    MR. T. LOUGHsaid that though he had no Government workmen in his constituency, he had taken a great interest in the abolition of these scandals for a long time. When the late Government was in office he was at least as pertinacious in urging the consideration of the question as he was now. He hoped that the Committee, might accept the fact that this Government had given another 1s. 6d. or 2s. as a recantation of the hasty opinions uttered by the Under Secretary for War when the late Government was in power, and when they submitted a proposal to give an advance to the men at Woolwich. In a letter to The Times in December 1893, the right hon. Gentleman said of the late Government in proposing to give an advance of 2s. 6d. at Woolwich, that it was "an ill-judged concession" to increase the wages in the dockyards at Woolwich. He congratulated the right hon. Gentleman on having got rid of those opinions, and with being a Member of a Government that was giving even more than the concession which he formerly considered to be ill-judged. He did not think that

    1265
    the advance given was up to the requirements of the day. In some respects the statement of the hon. Member was the most retrograde that had been heard during the last seven years. The hon. Member said that though he had taken pains to inquire in the London district he had no evidence that the wage was 24s. for 48 hours.
    MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSsaid there was no established rate in the districts to which the inquiry related of 24s. a. week for 48 hours.
    MR. LOUGHsaid that he described this as the most retrograde step heard from any Government during the last seven years. He read a letter which appeared recently in The Times from Mr. Hills, of the Thames Iron Works, stating that the wage of the ordinary unskilled labourer in London was 24s. a week for 48 hours. All the vestries in London at present paid 6d. an hour to the unskilled labourer, and for 48 hours the wage was 24s. a week. He maintained that even the inquiries made by the hon. Gentleman proved that the employers on the average paid 24s. a. week for unskilled labour; but the Government, instead of being in the first flight of employers in respect of wages, only paid 22s. a. week. He repudiated the suggestion that human Labour should be measured and paid for like cloth, and asserted that there was no loss suffered by the introduction of 48 hours, that in fact it had been proved the better value might be got by paying the full wage for 48 hours than by working the men for a longer time. He challenged the Government to say that the country had lost through the introduction of the 48 hours at Woolwich by the late Government. He declared, on the authority of the late Government, that the country had not lost, and, if the country had not suffered by introducing the 48 hours among the highest ranks of naval workers, it would not suffer by introducing it among the lowest ranks. It had been said that the change would cost the Government £6,000 a year. For another £6,000 they would have been able to give the men 24s. a. week. He noticed that the next Vote was for £8,000,000 for the Admiralty. If they could afford £8,000,000 for ships, surely they could afford £6,000 for starving men. [Ministerial laughter.] He repeated "starving men." Let hon. Members who laughed try to live on 22s.
    1266
    a week—[laughter]—and if they could not do it themselves they should not ask others to do it. The Government had acted in the matter in the most niggardly spirit, and had set a very bad example to other employers.
    Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £2,069,150, be granted for the said Service."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 78; Noes, 165.—(Division List, No. 335.)
    Original Question put, and agreed to.
    2. £100, Ordnance Factories.

    NAVY ESTIMATES, 1897–8.
    3. Motion made, and Question proposed,—
    "That a sum, not exceeding £5,440,000 (including it supplementary sum of £230,000) be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the expenses of the Contract Work for Shipbuilding. Repairs, etc., which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898."
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY: It may be remembered that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean complained of the fact that I had not made a sufficient statement in the original discussions on the Naval Estimates as to the materiel of the Fleet. But the postponement of the discussion on this Vote has had this advantage—that I am now able to give sonic information to the Committee which it was not in my power to give then. Since the Naval Estimates were introduced we have, of course, carefully considered the types of ships which, as Shown by my statement, we proposed to build. We have gone very carefully into the designs, and perhaps it will interest the House if I give briefly some of the particulars. ["Hear, hear!"] The Committee will remember that we propose I to lay down four battleships in the course of the present financial year. Of those four battleships, one is to be built by contract and three in the dockyards. The ship to be built by contract we propose to be precisely of the Canopus class. We have five ships of that class building, and this will make sir of that class. As regards the three remaining ships, we propose that they should he very similar to the Majestic,

    1267
    but with some improvements on the Majestic. The Committee may remember that the Canopus class was designed to have somewhat lighter draught than the Majestic. It was considered that we might want some ironclads in waters which the Majestic would not be able to penetrate, and waters to reach which the ships would have to go through the Suez Canal. For these purposes we shall he building, then, six ships of the Canopus class. For the remainder of the four battleships to be laid down we think that we cannot do better than go to the Majestic—a design of ship which has fully realised all the expectations formed of it, and which has been generally considered as a model of shipbuilding—in fact, we may claim that it stands pre-eminent—["hear, hear!"]—a view which has been endorsed to a. certain extent by our rivals in other lands. There was a movement in this country for building smaller ironclads. On the contrary, on the Continent they are abandoning the smaller ironclads and are going to ships of the Majestic class; and there is, indeed, one country where there was an intention of building a ship of 8,000 tons, but that ship is now to be replaced by one of 12,000 tons. I will now submit to the Committee the dimensions of the proposed ships as distinguished from the Majestic. The three battleships to be commenced at Portsmouth, Chatham, and Devonport are to be, as I have said, of an improved Majestic class, their displacement being 14,900 tons, which is identical with the Majestic; mean draught 26¾ft., or 9in. less than the Majestic; they are to be 400ft. in length, or 10ft. more than the Majestic; their mean speed (with natural draught, on contractor's trials) is to be 18 knots, or 1½ knots more than the Majestic; and they are to have 16½ knots estimated average continuous speed in smooth water and with clean bottoms. The ships are to be fitted with water-tube boilers. Their coal supply and bunker capacity will resemble the Majestic class, where the arrangements have given entire satisfaction. Their armament. is to be identical with that of the Majestic, but new and powerful types of 12in. and 6in. guns will be provided, and improved mountings will be introduced. The hull armour or citadel will be of the same extent and thickness as
    1268
    in the Majestic, but the quality of the armour will be superior. The Committee may be interested to learn—those who pay special attention to the subject arc well aware—that there are improvements now in armour-plates by which we are enabled with the same thickness of armour to resist projectiles of much greater weight and penetrative power than the armour which was used before. [An HON. MEMBER: "Is it the same sort of armour?"] No. The material used is a nickel steel, and the quality of the armour is so superior that the protection of the buoyancy and stability of the vessel will be sensibly increased. A new feature in these ships is that before and abaft the citadel armour the sides will be protected by thin armour, as in the Canopus class. The protection of the barbettes containing the 12in. guns and the protection of the 6in. quick-firing guns will be equal to that of the Majestic class, and the arrangements for the stowage and transport of ammunition will resemble those of that class. The Committee will therefore see that in no single feature will these vessels fall short of the Majestic, while they will have a smaller draught of water and they will have more powerful guns—["hear, hear!"]—besides which, for their protection we are using new armour of a quality more efficient than that of the Majestic. ["Hear, hear!"] Then the Committee will remember that in our last programme there were some light-draught boats for rivers. More and more we feel the need of this class of boat, not only for the Nile, but also for the Chinese rivers and other rivers where our interests have to be protected; and we have got the ships building now. They consist of six vessels of 100ft. length, 2ft. draught, and a maximum speed of nine knots; two vessels of about 145ft. length, 2ft. draught, steaming 13 knots; and four twin-screw river gunboats of 180ft. lengths, 8ft. draught, and a maximum speed of 13½ knots. We consider that this will be a most useful class of vessels. ["Hear, hear!"] There was another item in our programme, which the Committee will remember was a new Royal yacht. I will now state the general dimensions of that vessel:—Length, between perpendiculars, 380ft.; breadth 50ft.; mean draught, with keel, 18ft.; displacement, about 4,600 tons.

    1269
    The hull will be of steel, with minute sub-division into numerous water-tight compartments, and a cellular double-bottom as an additional security, and for the purpose of maintaining speed at sea for considerable periods the steel hull will be sheathed with teak planking covered with copper. The vessel will be propelled by twin screws actuated by vertical triple-expansion engines, and the maximum speed on the contractors' eight hours' trial will be 20 knots. With reference to this yacht I will only further say that the speed of 20 knots will not equal the speed of one or two yachts of other Sovereigns. But the question has been raised and carefully considered. I need not say that our designers at the Admiralty are perfectly capable of building a yacht that would have a 21 or 22 knots' speed, or a 23 knots if desirable. But those who are not acquainted with these matters can scarcely appreciate the enormous difference in engine-power and boilers which is required for the extra one or two knots—I think the power varies roughly as the cube of the speed. Therefore the question arose whether in a vessel of this kind it was more desirable to have more accommodation or to have one or two knots more speed simply that it might be said that we had a Royal yacht equal in speed to that of any other Sovereign. The matter was really one more for those who will have to use the yacht than for anybody else; and it has been decided to adopt a design which gives more comfortable accommodation and in every other respect a superior yacht, rather than to give extra knot in speed, which would be seldom, used, which would involve a great space in the ship for extra boiler-power and extra, engine-room, and for extra stokers and engine-room complement. I have made these remarks because it is so easy for criticisms to be made to the effect that it is really a scandal that in this country Her Majesty's yacht should be inferior in speed to that of any other Sovereign. The matter has been carefully considered, and the wishes of those who are most concerned have been carefully consulted.
    MR. EDWARD ROBERTSONasked what the total cost would be?
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY: We cannot estimate it exactly; but I should say about £250,000. I
    1270
    cannot bind myself to that, but that is the general estimate we have made. The design is not yet complete. I may say that the decorations, the electric lighting, and matters of that kind will be carried out by the best firms that can be found for that class of work. The Committee will bear in mind that in the Budget speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer he stated that he had banded another half-million to the Admiralty for additional work. The Committee may remember the general circumstances under which that addition was proposed and accepted by the Government. In my original statement on the Estimates, I said that if foreign countries made any exceptional efforts we should naturally follow suit, although not regarding any extra effort of another country as a menace to ourselves. The Estimates have been constructed upon a knowledge of the forces that might be brought against us, and that is the proper way, I think, of constructing the Estimates. ["Hear, hear!"] When we saw a modification which would have a very considerable influence upon the situation we thought it right also to modify, I hope in a very moderate manner, our Estimates. I think it was the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Forest of Dean who said he was not aware of any action on the part of any other foreign power that would justify a modification.
    SIR C. DILKEpointed out that he had also contended that the original Estimate was too small.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY: I was going to state the right hon. Gentleman's position exactly. He said that this step of mine was rather an act of penitence on our part than that it was due to our taking note of what was going on. Surely the right hon. Gentleman must know that that is not the case. I hope the Committee will relieve me of the necessity of going into details. Of course the Committee may challenge me, and ask me to count ship by ship, and so forth; but I should not like to do that. ["Hear, hear!"] It has rarely been our custom here—certainly not in the case of those who have occupied responsible positions—to count ship by ship in regard to what we are doing. I will therefore simply say that the movement which we see in other

    1271
    countries—without specifying any particular country — is in the direction of building very swift, large cruisers, which in the case of war would threaten our communications, and in such an event these ships should certainly be met by cruisers equal in power on our side. We have the Diadem class, which is a very strong class, but we do think that a further effort should be made in the direction of very large swift cruisers. Another point is that foreign nations realise the extreme utility of our torpedo destroyers, and torpedo destroyers in much larger numbers than was anticipated are being added to foreign fleets. I will now state to the Committee how I propose to allocate the half-million which the Chancellor of the Exchequer places at my disposal. There are two ways of proceeding—by beginning the additional ships at once, or by so accelerating the ships which we have in hand as to leave us in the coming year and the year after freer for our new proposals. Both ways would have the same effect, as we still excel in rapidity of construction. What I propose to do is to lay down four armoured cruisers [cheers], in addition to those which are now in hand. These cruisers are to be very powerful. The Committee will understand that the cruisers have a double duty to perform—the duty of acting with fleets and the duty of acting on lines of communication. No fleet can act without cruisers, and last year a regular computation was made of the number of cruisers required to act with fleets. The idea of cruisers is like that of frigates originally — cruisers are to the battleships of to-day what the frigates used to be to the battleships of old. We have considered whether the new cruisers might not be so constructed that in most actions with battleships they might not be obliged to retire from the action, but might be able to take part in that action under the general conditions, while at the same time they would have a speed and other arrangements which would enable them also to act upon our line of communications and of food supplies. We also considered whether these ships might not be built so as to be more powerful as fleet cruisers than the Diadem class, so that that class might be set free. These cruisers will therefore be able to perform
    1272
    both functions of a cruiser, and they will perform the function of fighting with a fleet better than any cruiser, I believe, that has yet been devised either in this or in any other country. I will state their character. The length between the perpendiculars about 440 feet; the extreme breadth, 69½, feet; the mean draught with keel, 26 feet; and the displacement 11,850 tons. Armament—two 9·2-inch and 12 6-inch quick-firing guns, these being of a new and more powerful type; 14 12-pounders, three 3-pounders, and two submerged torpedo-tubes. The protection of the 9·2-inch and 6-inch quick-firing guns will be equal to that of the Powerful class, but the quality of the armour will be superior. Arrangements for the supply of ammunition will be similar to those in the Powerfull and Diadem classes. Protection to the buoyancy and stability will be secured by vertical armour of the same thickness and quality as in the Canopus class of battleship. The protective decks will be similar to the Canopus class. The steel hulls will be wood-sheathed and coppered so that the vessel may keep the sea for long periods without serious loss of speed. The measured mile speed, with natural draught, on an eight hours' trial, will be about twenty-one knots. Water-tube boilers will be adopted, and the continuous sea speed in smooth water and with clean bottoms will be about 19½ knots. The coal bunker capacity will be about 1,600 tons, half of this being carried at the above-stated draught and displacement. The Committee will see that we have a ship whose armament and protective power will be superior in many ways to the older ironclads, and which will be perfectly fit to take its place in line of battle against many of the ironclads of an older kind. That being the case with regard to the armoured cruisers, the Committee will see that this is a large addition to our programme. All four ships are to be built by contract. The designs have to be worked out, and the tenders have to be secured, so that this year we shall not be able to make the progress upon them which the Committee might desire, but we shall make a start, and everyone knows the great importance of making a start with ships of this kind. ["Hear, hear!"] We shall not be able to spend more than £120,000 on the hulls,

    1273
    but at the same time we must provide guns, and, therefore, we take £100,000 to make progress with the guns at the same time that we make progress with the ships. That absorbs some £220,000 out of £500,000, which is the additional Estimate. Then we propose to do something in the way of acceleration. We propose to hasten the contracts for the battleship of the Canopus class, which will he called the Vengeance, and to put that out to contract immediately- instead of later in the year. That will absorb a further £50,000. Then we propose, in connection with new construction in the dockyards, to spend £130,000 upon labour and £40,000 upon materials. The Committee will see that that proposal is all the more important in view of labour troubles. I hope most sincerely we may be able to get on as we expect with our contract ships, but I am sure that the Committee will agree with me that if we can push on further in our dockyards it will be wise to do so, having regard to our liabilities. The only item which remains is an item of £60,000 for four torpedo-destroyers. Therefore £50,000 will be spent for the purpose of hastening the Vengeance, £170,000 in advancing the work in the dockyards, £120,000 on the cruisers, and £60,000 on the torpedo destroyers. In the dockyards there has been a certain wastage in consequence of the policy adopted with regard to the workmen, and I should not wish to take more money than I have mentioned for the dockyards on account of the difficulty of the continuous employment, of the men. Notwithstanding what has been said al tout the wages paid by the Government, we find it infinitely easier to get men into our dockyards than to induce them to leave us. [A laugh.] Notwithstanding the discontent that we have heard about, we find that the workmen are extremely anxious to stay at the rate of wages assigned. There is extreme difficulty, I will not say about discharging the men, but about their leaving us, although they have engaged to come to us for a limited time only. Well, I do not think that a better method could be found of spending this £500,000 than in strengthening our naval service as we propose. ["Hear, hear!"] I must conclude with one word of caution. As we produce tins additional programme now,
    1274
    we must not be expected to have a large programme in a few months' time when we meet again. Our object is that there should be real progress. I think that immense progress has been made during the last few years, and that progress we wish to keep up by the Estimates which we present. ["Hear, hear!"]
    MR. E. ROBERTSONthought the Committee had some cause to complain that the information now communicated to the Committee had not been supplied at an earlier period. He had nothing lint satisfaction to express at the statement of the right hon. Gentleman with regard to the four battleships mentioned in the original programme for the year. He was rather surprised to see how little interest, had been taken in the item for tile Royal yacht by him. Members below the Gangway on his side of the House. Time was when such a proposal as this would have been received very differently. He would venture to repeat what he had said earlier in the Session — namely, that a yacht for the use of the Sovereign might be built which would be serviceable as part of the active fleet of the country. He believed his view was confirmed by the experience of foreign countries. He had always believed in a strong Navy as a primary necessity for the defence of the country, and he judged all the items provided for in the Navy Estimates by the amount of service that they were capable of rendering to the fighting capacity of the country. Judged by that standard, the proposal to make a pleasure yacht could not be strenuously defended. He would not pursue the subject further. He would only venture once again to call attention to the perfect reasonableness and possibility of his own proposal, and again express his regret that the Government had not seen fit to combine utility with ornament and pleasure in this new item. He wished to seriously direct the attention of the Committee to the circumstances under which the new programme was submitted. On the original Estimate the right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean and himself maintained that although it was not stated on the face of the Estimates, and was not acknowledged in the First Lord's statement, there was a diminution of £250,000 in the cash provision for new construction. This contention had not

    1275
    been answered to this day. Now it appeared that the provision for the new construction contemplated when the Estimates were framed was £500,000 less. Later on the Chancellor of the Exchequer placed £500,000 at the service of the First Lord, and now he had added £500,000 to the Estimates for the year. By itself that was a perfectly sufficient justification for the addition to the Estimates. But the First Lord unnecessarily disclosed his justification for the extra expenditure as being a sudden abnormal increase in the programme of foreign nations. That was a serious statement to make.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY: But it was the truth. He distinctly stated that if there was any abnormal addition to foreign naval shipbuilding programmes he should act. He saw there was such an addition and he acted, but not in disguised assent to the views of the hon. Member.
    MR. E. ROBERTSONsaid he did not say that the right hon. Gentleman proposed an additional expenditure of £500,000 because it was proposed from that side, but he proposed what had been suggested from that (the Opposition) side. His statement as to what he would do if there was an abnormal increase in foreign programmes was made in answer to statements on the Opposition side.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY: No; it is ridiculous.
    MR. E. ROBERTSONsaid the right hon. Gentleman had now made a certain explanation, but had given no details. He defended the extra expenditure on the ground that there had been an abnormal addition to unnamed foreign programmes which he could not now divulge. The new programme was the beginning of an important development in the Navy. Apart from mere acceleration, which covered £50,000, the most important feature was four new cruisers to be laid down this year. Obviously no large expenditure could be made on these cruisers during the present year, but he desired to ask the First Lord what, as far as he could judge, would be the estimated cost of each cruiser?
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY: £700,000.
    MR. E. ROBERTSON: That is a total of nearly £3,000,000 to be spent
    1276
    on first-class cruisers. He had no objection to it. He was prepared to accept from the Admiralty, manned as it now was, their deliberate judgment as to what was necessary for the requirements of the Service, and he did not believe this item would provoke any hostile criticism from the Opposition side of the House. ["Hear, hear!"]
    ADMIRAL FIELDsaid the views of the hon. Member regarding the Royal Yacht were absurd, and he did not believe a single naval man would be found to agree with him. We were on the eve of marvellous changes and great developments in the building of warships, owing to the recent discovery of the value of nickel in the composition of armour. Instead of blaming the Admiralty for delay in unfolding their programme as to building the new cruisers, it should be a matter for satisfaction, because we should now have the advantage of the recent wonderful discovery in the building of these armoured cruisers and of all armoured vessels in the future. He was glad to find these cruisers were to be more powerfully armed than other cruisers laid down. Instead of having 6-inch guns only they were to have 9·2-inch guns forward and aft. The Brooklyn of the United States Navy had 8-inch guns, and he thought that was what was really wanted. However, these matters would no doubt be carefully thought out. There were other points he desired to allude to, but as he understood two other Votes would come on with regard to dockyards, he would defer his remarks.
    SIR C. DILKEsaid he had nothing but congratulations to offer to the First Lord of the Admiralty in the policy he had propounded. He thought the discussion between the two front Benches had been a little sterile, because the Committee was not able fully to discuss the question, the First Lord because he was not able to say what he knew, and hon. Members because they did not know it. The facts with regard to the Russian programme were very little known to Members of the House, and, therefore, speaking as they did in ignorance of it, it was impossible for them to discuss this question on its merits. What they had to deal with was the particular manner in which the first Lord of the Admiralty proposed to spend the additional money

    1277
    he proposed to spend in the course of the year. He believed the right hon. Gentleman had met the main criticism passed on his programme in February last. At that time many hon. Members ventured to express a doubt as to the strength of the country in cruisers, and he thought the First Lord had done very wisely in putting that first in his programme. With regard to the reservation as to the manning programme, he might express the hope that next year the Treasury screw would not Ire applied in such a way as to cause any falling off in the proposals to be made. ["Hear, hear!"]
    MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERalso congratulated the right hon. Gentleman in his policy. He would, however, like to remark with regard to the armament of cruisers that he could not help thinking that there was a great consensus of opinion that their armament was not heavy enough. He had listened with great attention to what the right hon. Gentleman had said with regard to this question, and he gathered that there was not going to be any great increase beyond what they were accustomed to. He went on board the foreign ships assembled at the Naval Review, and he found that they were very powerfully armed indeed, and he certainly believed in the opinion of naval officers that in the case of ships of the Blake class and the Eclipse class the armaments were notoriously inferior to what they might and to what they ought to be. He had endeavoured to find out what was the justification for their extraordinary absence of artillery in those ships, and the explanations that were given he could not think conclusive. It was said that it was absolutely necessary to provide great coaling capacity as well as very large communication storage capacity. But the Brooklyn, the United States Cruiser, carried 50 rounds per gun, and that meant that before she came to the end of her supply she would have fired away hundreds and hundreds of rounds. Thus it was clear that there was ample ammunition storage in the Brooklyn. This country spent enormous sums of money in providing coaling stations all over the world, and therefore the question of coaling and ammunition storage was of less importance than the question of armaments. He was not altogether without hope that
    1278
    a change in this respect might be made. He thought there was some justification for raising the point, for when he raised it on a former occasion a great change was made in the armaments of some of the smaller cruisers. That was, of course, a great step in the right direction. No British captain would dare to refuse an engagement with a ship of equal power, and it would he no consolation to a captain to know that he had more coal in his hunkers than his adversary if his armament was not so powerful. He hoped the First Lord of the Admiralty might see his way to consider the question as to whether the armaments of the ships could not be increased.
    CAPTAIN BETHELL, did not think the matter of increasing the armaments was quite so clear as the hon. Member seemed to imagine. For his part he was of opinion that if there had been any fault in this matter the Admiralty had been driven into it by the House of Commons, for during the last dozen years they had over and over again insisted that the ships did not carry half coal enough and 'the increased coaling capacity could not be obtained without sacrificing something, and in pursuance of that policy demanded by the House, too much had been sacrificed in the way of gun-power, and perhaps too great a radius of action had been given the ships. No doubt the right hon. Gentleman had the matter under Ins notice, and the various opinions would receive very careful investigation and report before the armaments of the ships were finally decided upon. He agreed with the hon. Member for West Belfast that it was well worthy of consideration whether it was not possible in the case of the Powerful and the Terrible to put a larger number of guns into them. Although' he agreed that the class of battleships they were now fitting was an effective vessel, symmetrical and beautiful to look at, and that their fleets were becoming more homogeneous, that was more concentrated as to speed and the working together as the vessels were like one another—still he never did feel quite satisfied that they ought to be content with constructing these very great vessels alone. It al ways seemed to him it would be wise if they had some provision for smaller ironclads for the various circumstances of a naval war, which would

    1279
    sometimes necessitate the employment of small vessels which could go into shallow waters. Again, there were many small naval powers who contented themselves with building excellent ironclads, but which were on a small type with a little water draught. This country ought not to be provided merely with great vessels with a big draught of water, as in the event of any trouble with a small power it would be difficult for a big warship to do what was required against the smaller battleships of these nations. From that he went to another favourite doctrine of his, which elicited no sympathy from his right hon. Friend. He did not believe that they really could be sure of getting the type of vessel most suited for war if they relied only upon the limited amount of efficient opinion that they got from the Admiralty. He believed—not for the purposes of construction, but merely to sketch the nature of vessel that would be useful in war—they should have some sort of council—if they liked to call it so— or some sort of assembly of naval officers in order to try and arrive at what was the naval opinion on the subject. He should be one of the last men in the world to say that in all these naval questions naval opinion was the best, hut he thought that on a purely professional question as to what should be the nature of the ships to meet other vessels, professional opinion was of the highest value. Even if the right hon. Gentleman did not agree with him on this subject, still he thought he would be disposed to admit that something might be said against the system which had landed them in some of the expensive mistakes which had been made in the course of the past thirty years. He did think the Admiralty were most extraordinary people in the manning of ships. The Vengeance was an historic name but there were other historic names in the Navy which might be usefully used and perpetuated.
    After the usual interval the Chair was taken by Mr. GRANT LAWSON.
    SIR JOHN COLOMBsaid there was one point which the First Lord did not mention in his very satisfactory statement, though he quite recognised that it might not be desirable to mention it. The point was what was
    1280
    the estimated total cost of each of these four new armoured cruisers. He did not press for an answer, now for he fancied that the plans were not far enough advanced to enable an accurate estimate to be made. He rose more for the purpose of offering his opinion on what had fallen in the course of the Debate. His hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Holderness Division expressed some regret that they were not building a smaller class of ironclads, and more of them. To emphasise his argument, his hon. and gallant Friend alluded to the experience of the Great War, when small classes of ships were very often, necessarily, used for in-shore operations, and he seemed to think that they were departing a little too much from the policy dictated by experience. He thought his hon. and gallant Friend overlooked one new feature in naval warfare, and that was the effect produced by the torpedo and submarine mines. He thought they must recognise that the effect of the torpedo on the course of a future war would be necessarily to force ships more and more away from the shore altogether. He did not altogether agree with his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Holderness in his contention that the Admiralty would be wise to pay more attention to the provision of a large number of a smaller class of ironclads. He thought the whole tendency of modern torpedo development was to force ships to keep further and further away from the shore. That was not the case in the old days when in-shore operations were common, and a lighter draught of ship was required. He sympathised to a certain extent with what had fallen from the hon. member for West Belfast with regard to the question of coal-carrying capacity. They had, in the past 20 years, very much developed the coal-carrying capacity of their ships, but he agreed that they must be careful not to give undue weight or exaggerated importance to it. When they came to consider that question as against armament, he thought a great deal was to be said in favour of British ships sacrificing something of coal-carrying capacity if that were necessary to secure increased armament. He believed that, looking at the question broadly, it was apparent that coal-carrying capacity was a factor in the

    1281
    strategical problem, while armament was a potent factor in the tactical problem, and in vain, he thought, would they pursue a policy of getting at the perfection of the strategical qualities of a ship if they unduly sacrificed her tactical qualifications. Looking at the strategical problem of their command of the sea, they had to remember that they had an advantage over all the other nations of the world as regards coaling stations, and therefore he must say that there was a good deal of reason for the supposition that it would be better to sacrifice a little coal capacity for that increased armament which, he believed, the working officers of the Navy felt to be of considerable importance. He did not wish, however, to push that argument too far, because there were other considerations that entered into the question. He did not suppose the Admiralty, who seemed to so nicely balance the coal-carrying capacity and the armament, had overlooked the fact of what was going to be their policy as regarded the protection of their commerce. He did not agree with those who thought that one ship was an answer to another, unless, indeed, the conditions of the two Powers were precisely similar; but in their policy with regard to cruisers he thought they had to be quite clear upon this point—how were they going to apply these cruisers, in the event of war, for the protection of their enormous commerce and their long lines of communication? To his mind there were only two possible policies. The popular idea that one ship had to chase another about the world, to find and search her out, was one policy, which in his opinion, was absolutely founded on fallacy. The other policy was that of "shadowing"—of accurate information at all times as to the position of every possible enemy, of readiness, and of complete arrangements for shadowing every possible depredator of their commerce from the very moment that war was declared. That, he admitted, was an argument against sacrificing coal-carrying capacity too far, for, if they were going to pursue that policy, they must, pursue it from the beginning to the end, and, if they had not the staying power which arose from coal-carrying capacity, it would 'wove ineffective. He did not wish to delay the taking of the Vote, but he did desire upon this
    1282
    occasion to refer to the policy of subsidising merchant ships. At its initiation in 1887 by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Ormskirk Division, he strongly opposed that policy, and he heed since seen no reason to alter the views he then held. In all we had spent about £400,000 upon these ships, and he thought there was little to show for it. £22,000 of the total had even been spent upon two vessels which had been transferred to a foreign flag. What was the object of subsidising the vessels? It was that they were to be at the disposal of the Admiralty in time of war. The vessels were not built with great coal-carrying capacity, and if it be true that great coal-carrying capacity was necessary for a cruiser, and if the Admiralty really did intend to use them, the ships failed in that very principle to which the Admiralty attached so much importance. Last year he certainly understood the First Lord of the Admiralty to convey that we did not get a sufficient return for our money, but that at present the Admiralty's hands were tied in consequence if the existing· contracts. He asked the right hon. Gentleman to give the Committee to-night some indication as to what, the future policy of the Admiralty was to be with regard in the subsidising of merchant ships.
    SIR A. FORWOODsaid that before he referred to the statement of the First. Lora of the Admiralty, he wished to advert to the question raised by his hon. and gallant Friend in his concluding remarks. The hon. and gallant Gentleman had remarked that during the last ten years about £400,000 had been distributed amongst various companies owning fast vessels. A year or 18 months before the Admiralty initiated the policy of sub-sidising merchant cruisers there was what was generally called a Russian scare. The Russian Government were anxious to obtain possession of all the fast merchant steamers this country possessed, and they entered into negotiations for the acquisition of some of them. In order to prevent the ships passing to a possible enemy the Admiralty rushed in mid chartered the vessels for periods of two to ten and twelve months, and paid away during that time something like £600,000 or £800,000. One vessel was armed and made a short cruise in the Channel. Since then the Admiralty had very wisely made

    1283
    contracts with the owners of the vessels under which they could have the service of the ships when necessary. The hon. and gallant Gentleman had said the vessels were not built with great coal-carrying capacity, and therefore they could not have a large radius of action. In reality the coal-carrying capacity of the ships was extraordinarily large. The Teutonic could carry 5,000 tons of coal, and could steam from England to Bombay without coaling at a high rate of speed, and carrying 2,000 troops. It was true the bunker capacity was limited, but the cargo capacity could also be used in times of emergency for coal. For the three vessels on the Pacific waters we paid something like £7,700 a year, which did not approach the cost of repairs to a comparatively small sloop or gunboat in the Royal Navy. ["Hear, hear!"] In short, we paid for these ships less than the average annual amount paid for repairs to vessels of war, while at the same time we had in them excellent ground for our Naval Reserve. No vessels in the service were better adapted for conveying messages from ship to ship, and steaming long distances at a regular high speed, and he hoped the Admiralty would not reverse a policy which had been most acceptable in the country, and which had never been questioned except by the last speaker. As to the additional naval programme explained by the First Lord, he congratulated the Admiralty upon their action. He was glad the idea of reducing the size of the battleships had been abandoned, and that instead of building vessels of 13,000 tons displacement, they had decided to build three of 14,900 tons displacement. There could be no question as to the handiness of the latter ship, because with the extra 2,000 tons they got additional speed, additional power, more coal capacity, and better armaments. With respect of the armament of our warships as compared with that of foreign ships, he would point out that a given displacement would only provide for a given rate of speed and a given armament, and it was a question which was to give way. Our vessels always carried a large quantity of reserve ammunition—the increase of the number of quick-firing guns necessitated that—and he would prefer being on a vessel which had 200 or 30 rounds left after the
    1284
    opposing vessel with less reserve had exhausted its supply. Referring to the water tube boilers, he pointed out that there were fitting and to be fitted vessels representing half a million horse-power with these boilers. He should have no objection to the boilers if there had been any long and complete test of them, but they were committing the safety of the nation to vessels fitted with boilers which had only been tested in very short and inadequate trials. This was a serious and important question, and he would suggest to the Admiralty that as the Terrible or the Powerful was shortly to go to China she should be sent by the long sea route, via the Cape, without calling anywhere, in order that the boilers might be thoroughly tested. ["Hear, hear!"] She would not carry enough coal to be sent out to China at full speed. But to test the staying power of the boilers let her go out at 10 or 12 knots, keeping the same boilers constantly in use at never less than two-thirds of the power they were- designed to indicate. To make the Royal yacht a yacht and war-vessel combined would be to spoil her for both. But as she- was to be capable of a speed of 20 knots an hour, in an emergency she could be used as a dispatch vessel from ship to ship. The First Lord said the battleships were to be put out at contract. But it was a curious fact that battleships were much more cheaply built in dockyards than by contractors. One vessel was built in a dockyard for £846,000; a sister ship built by contract cost £902,000. A cruiser cost £543,000 by contract; another was built in a dockyard for £516,000. In another case a cruiser cost £250,000 by contract, and £275,000 in a dockyard. These facts were taken from the dockyard expenses account for the current year, and it must be gratifying to all who had taken an interest in dockyard work to find that, in spite of changes of administration and additional pay conferred by the former Board of Admiralty, everything then done had been held to, and the cost of ships' repairs compared satisfactorily with those of private yards. But there were two vessels built in 1887 at a cost each of £87,000. Since 1889, £17,000 had been spent on repairs to these vessels; yet it was proposed to spend no less than £41,000, or nearly 51 per cent. of their original cost. Whatever money

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    was spent on them in repairs these ships would never be satisfactory when the work was done. The money would be better spent in building new ships than in patching up these old ones. Take the case of the Salamander and the Sheldrake. These cost £53,000 each, and it was proposed to spend on them in contract work and repairs £31,500. Their boilers were undoubtedly unsatisfactory, and their engines were too light; but before £31,500 was spent upon them the Admiralty should pause and consider Whether the money would not be more usefully spent in building ships capable of 28 or 30 knots. There was always an inclination to patch up old vessels, but shipowners knew that money spent in trying to rejuvenate old ships was nearly always money wasted.
    SIR EDWARD GOURLEYasked the First Lord of the Admiralty whet her merchant vessels subsidised by the Admiralty were so constructed as to receive guns in the event of their services being required. If so, where were the guns?
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY: I told you last year.
    SIR E. GOURLEYcontended that when merchant ships wore subsidised they should be so equipped that in an emergency they would at once be ready for work. Then, if armed with guns, what use would the ships be unless there be at once put on board a sufficient number of gunners to work the guns? He congratulated the First Lord on his new departure in regard to armed cruisers. It was first advocated by the present Lord Brassey when a Member of the House, and he himself was glad the right hon. Gentleman opposite was the first to adopt it. He maintained that the policy of building huge ironclads was a mistake on the part of the Admiralty. It would be much wiser to build ships of a smaller size. Two small ships in the event of war would be of greater service and utility than one of those huge battleships. He went further and declared that those huge battleships were neither more nor less than death traps. He was glad to find, however, that the right hon. Gentle-man had taken a new departure with regard to armed cruisers. Our future sea battles would be fought, not. by huge ironclads, but by cruisers. As to the enormous amount of money to be ex-
    1286
    pended on a new yacht for Her Majesty, he was of opinion that if the Queen was to have a new yacht it ought to be constructed at once, and the expenditure should not be spread over so long a period as three years. [Mr. GOSCHEN: "It will be built as soon as possible."] The Royal Family had four wooden yachts in use, and their annual maintenance was £23,500. This expenditure was enormous and unreasonable, and ought to come to an end. The cost of the crews, and the victualling came to another £18,000, bringing up the annual expenditure to £41,000 a year. It was an extravagant policy to build another new yacht of 4,000 tons; and he hoped the question would be reconsidered.
    CAPTAIN PHILLPOTTSdisagreed with the hon. Member as to the Royal yachts. The Victoria and Albert was constructed in 1854, and it was now an old vessel which had done good service. He did not think, however, that a satisfactory result would be attained by combining the two essentials of a yacht and a fighting vessel. The distribution of weights on the fighting vessel was a matter of the most accurate and nicest calculation, and for that reason it was impossible to provide the necessary accommodation if a yacht was to be equipped as a fighting ship. As to the cost of the Royal yachts, he pointed out that the officers and crew were all trained men, liable to be called out in the event of war. The cost of the crew of the yacht could not therefore be credited to the benefit of the Royal Family. With regard to the question of the employment of water-tube boilers and construction, be considered that the Admiralty and their advisers were far more capable of judging those matters than Members of the House of Commons. There was a tune when the professional advisers of the Admiralty were chosen simply for their readiness to endorse the programme of the First Lord of the Admiralty. But it was different now. The improvement in the Navy was due to the selection by the Admiralty of competent advisers; and of the Admiralty acting on their advice. He regretted that the Admiralty were about to lose the services of one of the most capable officers in the Service, Sir John Fisher, as Comptroller, but they had got in his place Admiral Wilson, an officer second to none in the profession.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTYsaid he proposed to reply to a few of the questions which had been put to him, after which he hoped the Committee would come to a decision on the Vote, as there were a number of other Votes connected with the Navy, besides the Civil Service Votes, to be considered. With regard to the question of subsidising mercantile cruisers, as he had said last year, he was not satisfied with the present condition of things, and he would consider the matter when the proper time came. He was not against the general principle of utilising mercantile cruisers in time of war. Our foreign neighbours spent large sums in subsidising those vessels, and thereby had at their disposal a great reserve on occasions of emergency. The hon. Member for Sunderland was in error in supposing that no provision was made for supplying our subsidised mercantile, vessels with guns and men in the event of war. There were guns at several naval stations abroad ready to be placed on board those vessels if the necessity arose; awl the commanders. at the naval stations would, in addition to putting the guns on board, make the best arrangements possible for the manning of the vessels. He did not, however, say that he was satisfied with the existing arrangements for the subsidising of mercantile cruisers, and he was not sure that more could not be done in that direction. The chief contracts would lapse next year, and that would be the time for a full consideration of the whole subject. The next point in controversy was the utility of water-tube boilers. It had been said that instances of the test of water-tube boilers in our ships had been few; but if they had been few they were such as had led to absolutely scientific conclusions, and the Admiralty was supported generally by naval officers in the opinion that the introduction of water-tube boilers meant a great advance in the general capacities of our ships. He had himself passed through some of the heresies—from the Admiralty point of view—which had been uttered in the course of the Debate. Before he had the opportunity of consulting with the naval advisers with whom he was now brought into contact at the Admiralty, he considered that small ironclads were extremely useful. But professional opinion was now dead against the small ironclads,
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    and the Admiralty, who had considered the matter again and again, were convinced that their policy was the correct policy. The hon. Member for the Holderness Division of Yorkshire had suggested that the Admiralty should have professional opinion on that question, that there should be a sort of council of advice. He thought that in France they had such a council, but he did not think the results had been superior to those attained by our own system. ["Hear, hear !"] But, as a matter of fact, they had professional advisers; and that was what he wanted to impress in the fewest possible words on the Committee. It was not only that they had scientific constructors, but he (the First Lord) was surrounded by naval officers, before whom the plans of ships were laid, and sailors saw and examined the plans all day long. [A laugh.] They had not only the naval Board; they had a director of ordnance, and various other officers, all of whom brought their special skill and knowledge to the examining of different parts of the ship. So that there was no ground for the impression—and ire wanted to remove it—that sailors had not enough to say as to the construction of our warships. [" Hear, hear ! "] The only other question he would deal with for a moment was that of armaments. The hon. Member for Belfast had contrasted the Brooklyn with the Edgar. The official reports showed that the weight of the guns and ammunition on board the Brooklyn was much less than on board the Edgar. The difference was accounted for by the ammunition. Would the hon. Member prefer to run short of ammunition? The Brooklyn carried 50 rounds per gun. But that appeared to them an extraordinarily small supply. He frankly confessed that he should not be prepared to send any British ships over to the United States or anywhere else with so small an amount of ammunition as 50 rounds per gun. ["Hear, hear !"] Then, take the ammunition for the smaller guns. As had been stated by an hon. Member, in ten minutes' action the whole supply would be fired away; and in what position would a ship find herself then? Of course, we were handicapped to a certain extent by the fact that we should probably have to operate at a distance from our reserve stores. We had to seek the enemy elsewhere, and, therefore, there was an obligation

    1289
    to carry a liberal supply of ammunition. It was said that every officer wished for more guns. Yes, but could they get more guns without sacrificing the necessary amount of ammunition? And then, of course, there were the questions of the coal supply and the radius of action, upon which he would not enter. All he had to say was that he hall pressed his naval advisers upon the question of guns, and they had considered it over and over again; and he could not find amongst them any hesitation whatever as to the course the Admiralty should pursue. After all, the question must be settled by compromise; and he could assure the House that it was only one among the many questions that must disturb every shipbuilder who was called upon to perform the difficult task of meeting the ever-increasing demands that were made upon hint. He had now dealt with the main points raised in the course of the Debate. He appreciated the way in which the Admiralty programme had been accepted by the Committee, and he should be glad if they might now be allowed to come to a decision upon the Vote. ["Hear, hear!"]
    MR. DILLONasked what had caused the increase in the item of coal for steam vessels? Last year the Vote was £500,000: this year it was £525,000. Was any of it due to the blockade of Crete?
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY: I think not, because the blockade of Crete was foreseen. We have a larger number of ships in commission, and the experience of the former year has shewn that it is necessary to make some larger provision. Possibly the position at Crete may have increased the consumption of coal; but it must be remembered that if the ships of the Mediterranean squadron had not been at Crete, they would have been tit sea elsewhere.
    MR. HENRY LABOUCHEREhad always been surpised that so level-headed a man as the First Lord of the Admiralty, who thoroughly understood finance and was an excellent Chancellor of the Exchequer, should have allowed himself to be captured by naval cranks, and experts—[laughter]—and should be persuaded to play this ridiculous game of beggar-my-neighbour at the
    1290
    expense of the taxpayer, against the civilised world. But he had himself explained it by saying that he was "always surrounded by naval captains." Let him venture to suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, instead of being always surrounded by naval captains, he might do well to be surrounded by taxpayers. [Laughter] Then he would probably take into his consideration not only all these fads and fancies, but also- the fact that they had got to be paid for. Now, so far as he had been able to discover from the statistics given in that House, we had not advanced one inch in regard to the Navy during the last 15 years. [laugher and cheers.] Yes, he expected hon. Gentlemen would say that. [Laughter.] What was the meaning of the strength of the British Navy? It was It matter of comparison with other navies. No sooner did we build ships t ban other nations built as well, and he very much doubted whether we were, relatively to other Powers, any stronger now than we were before we commenced what he contended was a foolish game. He wanted to know how long this was to go on? The right hon. Gentleman said that if Other nations built, we must build too. ["Hear, hear!"] Well, he saw that the German Emperor had urged his Parliament to build a considerable number more ships; and if the German Emperor succeeded in obtaining the money to build five battleships, were we to build ten? ["Hear, hear!"] Hon. Gentlemen said "Yes." Well, he had seen in the newspapers that the United States contemplated the annexation of the Sandwich Islands; and if the United States did what he ventured to think a very foolish thing, they would have to build a. strong navy. It must be remembered that when the United States went into a business they did it thoroughly; and in this matter of naval power they would try to beat us if they could. If then we having built ten ships because the German Emperor had built five, the United States were to proceed to double their naval strength, were we to go on and double our naval strength too? [Laughter and cheers.] The whole thing appeared to be perfectly absurd. He yielded to no one in his desire for a strong and effective Navy, but he wanted a Navy purely for defence. He had observed that the more ships we got the

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    more we meddled with other countries. Sir Robert Peel once told that House that it was the greatest mistake to have a war expenditure in time of peace. We ought not to spend all our money in this ridiculous system of insurance. He did not believe there was any country that wished to attack us. Whilst we had engaged in many wars during the present and the past century it had never once been because we were attacked. If they were always preparing for war the result was to foster a military spirit in the country which might lead to war. He was not going to Divide the House on the whole of this Vote, although he should be delighted to do so if he could carry it. He got no assistance from the Front Opposition Bench—[laughter]— on the contrary, there seemed to be a competition between the two Front Benches to encourage this wild expenditure. What was the contribution of his hon. Friend to the Debate? He had said that he judged all salaries, from the salary of the First. Lord of the Admiralty down to that of a cabin boy, by their fighting capacity. What was the fighting capacity of the right hon. Gentleman—[laughter]—or of the Secretary for the Navy, or of the Junior Lord of the Admiralty? Why should the Junior Lord have only £1,000 a year, while the First Lord got £5,000 a year, if it was only a question of fighting capacity? That was the contribution of their Front Bench to the Debate. He believed his hon. Friend behind him was going to move a reduction.
    MR. J. G. WEIRcongratulated the First Lord of the Admiralty on his statement. He begged, however, to move the reduction of the Vote by £1,000 in respect of the expenditure on the Royal yacht. He considered that Her Majesty was entitled to the finest and best of everything that the country could produce, but a line must be drawn somewhere. The right hon. Gentleman did not even assure them that £250,000 would cover the cost of this yacht. The yacht, doubtless, should be built with all the best improvements, and in the best style, but still a quarter of a million was a very large sum. He pointed out that the sum which was to be voted for this yacht would provide
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    50 cruisers to protect the interests of the line fishermen on the coasts of England, Scotland, and Ireland against the depredations of trawlers. He protested against this enormous expenditure.
    MR. LABOUCHEREagreed with the hon. Member for Dundee that it might be possible so to build the new Royal yacht as to render it serviceable in time of war. He did not know much about yacht s himself, because the mere sight of one made him seasick—[laughter]—but he believed that a very fine yacht could be built for less than £250,000, which was a very large sum. The right hon. Gentle-n man could not even guarantee that the new yacht would not cost more than £250,000, and he should not be surprised if it cost nearly double the sum mentioned. He did riot suppose that Her Majesty used her yachts on more than five days in the year, and if the Victoria and Albert, on which very large sums had been spent, was seaworthy, she might, he thought, suffice for the requirements of the Crown. Radicals were quite prepared to say that the Queen ought to have a fine big yacht, but economy ought not to be wholly disregarded by the Admiralty in the matter.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTYsaid that he could not guarantee that the cost of the yacht would not exceed £250,000, but he did not suppose for a moment that it would cost any such sum as the hon. Member suggested, and he hoped that the expenditure would be within the sum he had named. It was almost incredible, but nevertheless true, that the Queen, of all persons, had been using a yacht 40 years old. All the four Royal yachts were old, and ho thought the majority of Her Majesty's subjects in this country would be of opinion that the time had come when the Royal Family were entitled to have a new yacht built upon the lines on which Royal yachts were now constructed. ["Hear, hear!"]
    MR. J. C. FLYNNheld that £250,000 was a most extravagant sum for the yacht. He was not a strong supporter of monarchic institutions, but he recognised that a monarchy while it existed ought to be main-tamed suitably. The demand of the First Lord of the Admiralty, however, exceeded the limits of reason. Was the Committee to understand that this extraordinary expenditure was to be

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    incurred for a yacht which was to be used for only a few days in the year? He was not one of those who believed in a cheese-paring policy on a question of this kind; if they were to build yachts for the representatives of monarchy, certainly do it in a proper and even luxurious manner, but £250,000 was out of all reason.
    MR. E. ROBERTSONcomplained of the Admiralty having, as he understood, refused a continuation of the Parliamentary Return showing the expenditure on the Royal yachts, because, if ever there was an occasion when Parliament ought to be made acquainted with this item of naval expenditure, surely this was the occasion.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTYsaid his memory was not certain on the subject, but if the Return was refused it was because it was considered that to run up all the items, necessarily numerous, for repair of old yachts was a roost misleading method of stating, statistics. It was like when a man said he ate one pound of beef a day, the calculation was made how many oxen he would have eaten in the course of his life. Subject to the reservation indicated, however, the hon. Gentleman should certainly have his Return.
    MR. E. ROBERTSONwas much obliged to the right hon. Gentleman, who had made a wise concession. As he had already suggested more than once, he thought this ship should be made, not only a Royal pleasure yacht, but at the same time a vessel capable of being made serviceable in war.
    MR. DILLONthought the present demand was a gross waste of public money. There could not be a better illustration of the reckless character of this demand than to recall the fact that Irish Members had been fighting in the House of Commons for ten years to get an unfortunate dock in the south of Ireland put into a condition suitable for naval repairs being carried out, and that the Admiralty, as an enormous boon, had consented to expend. £60,000 upon it in the next five years. That fact furnished an instructive contrast as to the intelligence and fairness with which public money was distributed.
    MR. WEIRsaid that if the right hon. Gentleman would give some assurance that the new yacht would be constructed
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    as a war vessel as well as a yacht there would be some reason for the expenditure.
    Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £5,439,000, be granted for the said Service."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 41; Noes, 143.—(Division List, No. 336.)
    Original Question put, and agreed to.
    4. Motion made, and Question proposed,—
    "That a sum, not exceeding £2,126,000 (including a supplementary sum of £130,000), be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the expense of the personnel for Shipbuilding, Repairs, Maintenance, etc., including the cost of establishments of Dockyards and Naval Yards at home and abroad, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898."
    MR. KEARLEYdesired to draw attention to the case of the employés at the Devonport dockyard, contending that the rental conditions which prevailed in that town were such as to justify the minimum wage of the Government servants being raised. The late Government had given pledges, which had been confirmed by the present Government, to the effect that where rental conditions were exceptional, the wages of their employés should be amply sufficient to compare favourably with those of other places where the rental conditions were not so onerous. In Deptford and Woolwich, where the rents were high, the Government had made some concession by giving increased wages, but the rental conditions were much more exceptional in Devonport than in either of the two places he had mentioned. In his census returns of 1891 the Registrar General showed that the overcrowding in Devonport was higher than in any other city or town in England. He pointed out that in England and Wales, taking the period of 20 years, the average population was 5 per house; but in Devonport there were 60,000 people living in 5,000 houses, or a population per house of 12 people. Again, the Registrar General showed that the percentage of people in England and Wales living in tenements of one room only was 47 per 1,000. In London, of course, the number was large, amounting to 184 per 1,000, but in Devonport the

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    number reached the total of 244 per 1,000, this being the only town with a higher ratio than London. He would like to call the attention of the First Lord of the Admiralty to the statement made by the medical officer of health. The actual population of Devonport was 60,000, but with the suburbs it amounted to 86,000, the medical officer's duties extending over the whole of this population. This gentleman stated, in his report, that out of these 86,000 people, no fewer than 51,000 lived in tenements. The hon. Member proceeded to give statistics showing the overcrowding of the population in Devonport. There was nothing like it anywhere else. He gave particulars as to the numbers of people in different tenements, and the rent paid per week. He challenged the Civil Lord of the Admiralty to justify the statements he made last year on this subject. He asked for an independent inquiry, when he could produce much stronger evidence as to the state of affairs in this unfortunate town, far worse than anything in London or any other part of the country. In Devon-port the population was very thick indeed. He invited the Civil Lord to justify the statement he made last year. Last week there was a meeting of the Devonport Borough Council to consider the question of the housing of the working classes, the medical officer made his report and an official condemnation was passed on the state of some of these habitations, and he understood a good many of them were to be pulled down. Deputations from the local branches of various trade societies gave evidence from experience in Glasgow, Bristol, Nottingham, Barrow-in-Furness, showing how unfavourably the condition of Devonport compared with other towns with four-room tenements at £24 a year, built for one family, but inhabited like rabbit warrens. The facts should be sufficient to induce the Government to give an undertaking that a local inquiry should be held. This was the extent of the moderate demand he had made in previous years and now repeated. He would not be satisfied with a pleasant and plausible reply from the Civil Lord of the Admiralty, he desired a definite answer, would the Admiralty undertake that a local Inquiry should be held into the circumstances? Evidence was available, much had been collected by the municipality,
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    and there was the evidence of the Medical Officer, and he was perfectly satisfied that if such an Inquiry were honestly carried out, in the result the Admiralty would admit that the local conditions of the town were such as to entitle the men employed in the dockyard to favourable consideration of their claim to a higher minimum rate of wages than they had hitherto received. Another question he had to mention, not by any means a new one, the classification an long the various trades. This was a novel system introduced in 1891 by the right hon. Gentleman who had had a great deal to say tonight about the importunity of Members who represented dockyard constituencies. If evidence were wanted m the undesirability of perpetuating this system, he appeal to the hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Robertson) who, upon experience obtained ill his official position at the Admiralty, had declared that the system had proved unworkable. He hail professed to have abolished it, but like many other Government assurances it resulted in a mere nibbling at the question, which still remained unsettled. What the men asked for was that there should be a uniform rate of pay for work of equal value in particular trades. They pointed out that in private shipbuilding establishments where Government contract work was carried out, there was this uniform rate of pay, and they asked that in the six trades—the right hon. Gentleman was well acquainted with the circumstances and he would not particularise there should be a uniform rate. He might anticipate the reply he would receive, a reply often made, that if there was to be a uniform rate then it would be a question of levelling down, but in this connection he commended to the attention of the Admiralty a Return which he had put before Lord Spencer, which showed that in. all the private shipbuilding yards, and taking- into consideration all the advantages of Government employment, the wages averaged 2s. or 1s. a week higher than was paid in Government establishments for similar work.
    GENERAL LAURIEsaid he also, like the hon. Member who laid just spoken, had from year to year since he hail had a seat in the House put before the First Lord of

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    the Admiralty grievances of which certain workmen in the dockyards complained. He would not go over the arguments again, it was a substantial grievance that men received different wages for doing the same work. The First Lord might consider that he had dealt with it, mind he did go a long way towards it, as did also the Board of Admiralty under the late Government, and yet to a certain extent the grievance remained. He felt it was a duty to his constituents to press that that grievance might be removed, thereby giving satisfaction to a body of workmen whit did good work. That they did good work would be realised when they contrasted the work done in their yards with that done by contract. The cruiser Andromeda was built in their yards £27,000 less than the Diadem, which was built in Glasgow: while the battleship Hannibal, built in their yards, cost £24,000 less then the Mars, built at Laird's yard at Birkenhead. It seemed to him that the men who did Work more cheaply for the nation were worth some consideration, and he did hope that that consideration might be shown. Of the proposed additional grant towards increasing the Navy, only £170,000 were to be spent in the yards themselves. That seemed to him hardly enough, when they realised that they could build more cheaply there. The argument was that this was a temporary pressure, and that by-and-bye it would be necessary to discharge men. But was it a temporary pressure? He believed the temporary pressure would go on. They would have to continue to build, and, whether it was in private or public yards, build they must, and surely it was better to build where they could do the work more cheaply, where they had the men under heir own control, and where, in case of war, they could be used immediately for repairing purposes. He hoped that the First Lord in framing his future Estimates would give more consideration to the yards, and less, comparatively, to contract.
    SIR J. BAKERtrusted that they would hear that night that the same measure of consideration would be meted out to the dockyard labourers as had been meted out to those under the War Department. Their present treatment was a species of mild sweating, which was not consistent with the promises which had
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    been made in that House in regard to their wages—namely, that they should receive the rate of pay that was received in the locality. He had to remind the First Lord that in very few, if in any, cases had the petitions which had been presented this year been replied to. That was a considerable disappointment to the employés in the dockyard. He would give one illustration. In the borough he represented there were 1,600 shipwrights employed in the dockyard. Nine months since they presented a petition of a character so moderate that it was totally different from any which they had presented before. They asked for a uniform wage of 33s. per week for established men, and 34s. for hired men. To that they got no reply whatever. The Government had professed to promise to abolish classification. The men asked, and had a right to demand, that that promise should be fulfilled, bat classification continued. They had also a complaint to make with regard in the wages paid to the established man, and to the hired man, and though the difference between what they received awl what they demanded might seem only small it was of importance to the men. If the Admiralty would only meet the moderate demands of the workmen they would find that their action would lead to contentment and satisfaction, which would be greatly to the advantage of the dockyards.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTYsaid that the Admiralty received hundreds of petitions in the course of the year. Every consideration was paid to them, and he did not think that even the workmen themselves expected immediate answers to them. Last year considerable concessions were made, and he believed they gave some satisfaction to the workmen by what they did. In reference to classification, the hon. Member and others complained that they had not had what they were promised. They had had in ample measure what they were promised. It appeared to him that there had been too many professions, too much veiled language which hon. Members could interpret according to their own desires, or the advantages of their constituents. The hon. Member for Devonport hoped there would be no professions and no niggling. He certainly would satisfy

    1299
    the hon. Gentleman. He would make no promise, he would make no profession. He intend to look at these matters as a man of business and to rectify what he thought needed rectification. The hon. Member for Devonport remarked that his constituency was much overcrowded. The proper deduction from that statement was that workmen ought not to be attracted to Devonport, but that more work should be given to Chatham and other places. Did the hon. Member think for a moment that if they were to give an extra 6d. or 1s. it would remove the terrible state of things to which he had called attention?
    MR. KEARLEYsaid that he had made no new proposition.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTYasked who did make it.
    HON. MEMBERS: "The last Government."
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTYremarked that he was not responsible for the last Government. If they had made the promise attributed to them they had landed the Admiralty in great difficulty. If rent were to be taken into consideration they would have to diminish wages in those places where there was an excess of cottage. accommodation. It was not merely a question of money; if it were, it would be easy. It would be very popular to make the money fly—possibly the Government might win back Portsmouth and Devon-port if they did. But it was necessary to have content not only in one spot but throughout the service; and the discrimination asked for would set the whole of the establishments in a ferment. Would Portsmouth and the other dockyards be content with a lower wage than Devonport? And if the increase were given to the labourer, why not to all the servants of the Government? [Mr. LOUGH: "Give it all round!"] That would result in the Government doing less building at Devonport than at other places. How would an additional 1s.a week do away with the difficulty of overcrowding? In Deptford the wages were raised, and the rents of cottages had actually been put up. Devonport ought to see how far they could build artisans' dwellings.
    MR. KEARLEY: We cannot get land at a suitable price.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTYasked how this increase in wages would remedy that state of things. Devonport must concentrate the whole of its attention on getting better housing for the working classes. That was a better solution of the difficulty than making thousands of men in other yards discontented. The conditions could not be so very hard, because even when higher wages were being paid in private yards the Admiralty were still able to get all their work done. He did not wish to disturb that content by holding out expectations which no Government could possibly fulfil.
    MR. E. ROBERTSONsaid that no one knew better than he the difficulties of the situation. But when the wages of the dockyards were inquired into and settled five years ago, the Admiralty certainly admitted the principle that in the lower ratings the wages should he determined by the circumstances of the locality, of which rental was the chief. He was bound also to say that the late Board considered at the same time the case of Devonport, but they decided against it because they did not think the same special circumstances applied. It appeared that in Deptford the advance had been swept into the pockets of the landlord. That was a possible result they foresaw and tried to deprecate, and he could only regret that such had been the result of the well-meant effort of the late Board.
    VISCOUNT CRANBORNEcalled attention to the grievances of the riggers in the Royal Dockyard at Chatham, who complained that they were not as well treated as other departments of the dockyard either as regards wages or superannuation. It might he said that the grievance was accounted for by the fact that after all the riggers were not engaged in anything like so skilled a trade as, say, the carpenters. That might have been the case in former years but as time had gone on and steel rigging had been substituted, as a matter of fact the business of rigging had become extremely skilled, and there was great responsibility attaching to it, part of their duty being to manœuvre great ships in and out of the dock.

    1301
    These men had to obtain a certain status before they became riggers; and it had been represented to him that they were not being properly treated by the Board of Admiralty as to the condition of their services.
    MR. MORTONagreed with the observations of the last speaker as to the riggers, but he desired to call attention to the case of labourers engaged in the dangerous and unhealthy work in double bottoms. These labourers were receiving an exceedingly low rate of pay. He agreed that the principal element in determining the cost of living of those men was rent. But in reply to the statement of the Financial Secretary to the Admiralty that any increase in wages would go into t he pockets of the landlords in the shape of rent, he would paint out that rents in Devonport had been increased to the furthest limit; and the only result of any attempt to raise them still higher would be to swell the number of labourers who were going outside the manor of Devonport to live. Rents in Devonport were for all practical purposes economically fixed, and any increased pay would not go into the landlord's pocket, but would go to improve the condition of the workman by enabling hint to live in noire rooms than tit present. He was sure that if he could take the right hon. Gentleman into some of the streets of Devonport and show him the scenes be had witnessed—whole families, in some cases three generations, living in a single room—it would soften even the proverbially hard hearts of the Government officials and lead them to consider this matter in a different light. He still trusted that the Admiralty would make special inquiry into the state of things at Devonport, for he was persuaded that if they did so in an unprejudiced way, the case he had put would command attention, and would he effectually dealt with.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The hon. Gentleman who has just sat down may rest assured that the Admiralty are ready, as they ever have been, to give consideration to any legitimate grievances. I will not traverse the arguments he has used. In any case, I am not sure that anything would be gained by discussing the matter at the present moment. Nor do I rise for that purpose. I rose to make an appeal to
    1302
    the Committee; but before doing so, some answer is due to my noble Friend the Member for Rochester in reference to the brief speech he made a few minutes ago. Both he and the hon. Member for Devonport who has just sat down raised the question of the riggers. While the riggers have shared in every one of those advantages recently given to workmen in the Government yards, and while their superannuation is calculated on precisely the same principle, no doubt the fact remains that their wages are less than the wages of the joiners. My noble Friend specially compared the two. But while that fact is undoubted, it must be remembered that the same fact occurs in every private yard in the kingdom, and that in none of these private yards do the riggers earn the same wages as the joiners. There would be an obvious ho-propriety, I think, in the Government adopting a different system in their yards from that which prevails in private yards; and under the circumstances I do not know, as at present advised, that the Board of Admiralty are in a position to meet the views of my noble Friend and the hon. Gentleman opposite. So much for that particular question. I rose rather on a matter which is more within my special province, and that is to make all appeal to the Committee to conclude this Vote and the other Admiralty Votes; because there is a Report of Supply which some Members are very much interested in, and there are also some Bills which must not be forgotten if the Session is to he brought to a close when we contemplate. I have always thought it advisable, and still think so, not to put too great a strain upon the House in the matter of long sittings. ["Hear, hear!"] We sat eleven hours yesterday, and we have to meet at twelve o'clock to-morrow; and under the circumstances, I hope the Committee will consent to bring this Vote to a- conclusion, and also the remaining Admiralty Vote, on which I believe no question will arise. As soon as that is done, I will move to report progress, and we can then proceed with other business.
    MR. DILLONasked if the right hon. Gentleman would give the Committee some indication of his idea of the amount of business he was going to do. He hoped the practice of not taking Bills on the days allotted to Supply, a practice

    1303
    which had been observed throughout the Session, would not be departed from.
    MR. LOUGHsaid the First Lord of the Admiralty had promised to look into the admitted overcrowding at Devonport, and if he would promise that an Inquiry would be held, it would not be necessary to divide on the Vote. The right hon. Gentleman had showed them a book of petitions, which he said was an abstract, which was surely proof that there was need of an Inquiry.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTYsaid he had not promised anything more than that he would look into the petitions, as they did every year, and beyond that he would not go. He had not promised any Inquiry into the situation at Devonport.
    MR. KEARLEY, being dissatisfied with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, moved to reduce the Vote by the sum of £100.
    Question put, "That a sum, not exceeding £2,125,900, be granted for the said Service."
    The Committee divided:—Ayes, 29; Noes, 112.—(Division List, No. 337.)
    Original Question again proposed.
    MR. DILLONproposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again, in order to elicit a statement from the First Lord of the Treasury as to the remaining business on the Paper."
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid that the rule that had always been adopted on Supply nights since the new Standing Order was passed was that Bills should not be taken. He thought himself that some relaxation of that Rule might be made with advantage after Twelve o'clock at the end of the Session, but he was quite ready to give way and meet hon. Gentlemen on that matter; but he hoped hon. Members would give the Government such Supply as they could without unduly prolonging the sitting. No Bills would therefore be taken that night, nor Report of Supply (July 23).
    MR. DILLONsaid it was quite two years since he raised the question of the supply of Catholic chaplains in the Navy. He did not wish to press that
    1304
    night for a final answer on the subject. He only wished to remind the First Lord of the Admiralty that he promised that the matter should be looked into.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTYwas understood to say that he had not forgotten the promise he had made. The matter was still under his consideration.
    Vote agreed to.
    5. £2,064,000 (including a Supplementary sum of £40,000), Shipbuilding Repairs, Maintenance, Etc.—Materiel.—Agreed to.
    6. £85,600, Educational Services.—Agreed to.
    7. £66,700, Scientific Services.—Agreed to.
    8. £100,000, Naval Armaments (Supplementary).

  CIVIL SERVICES.

    CLASS II.
    9. £25,090, to complete the sum for Charity Commission.—Agreed to.
    10. £350,830, to complete the sum for Stationery and Printing.
    DR. CLARK: I should like to ask the Secretary to the Treasury when the contract will end which we are now under with The Times for the reporting of the proceedings of the House?
    MR. HANBURY: At the end of the Session. The new contract comes into force next Session.
    DR. CLARK: Will it be on the same terms?
    MR. HANBURY: Yes, practically on the same terms.
    MR. FLYNNcalled attention to the heavy expenditure incurred in connection with printing, instancing the case of the Public Health (Scotland) Bill, in which the majority of the Members of the House took no interest, but the bulky volume of Amendments to which were printed and issued day after day. In a case like that, a saving might be effected by the Amendments only being sent to those Members who expressed a desire to receive them.
    MR. LOUGHwas not in favour of any curtailment in the documents sent to Members, saying that a case like the

    1305
    Public Health (Scotland) Bill, in which the interest was restricted to a few Members of the House, was of rare occurrence. He asked if any of the new contracts that had been entered into had been printed?
    MR. HANBURYsaid that the contracts had been laid on the Table of the House, and those for Parliamentary printing had been printed and circulated. With regard to the suggestion as to the printing of Amendments to particular Bills, that was really a matter which did not come within the province of the Treasury at all. It was a matter for the authorities of the House; it was entirely in their hands.
    MR. FLYNNcomplained as to the way in which certain country papers obtained hold of documents long before Members. He did not know how that occurred.
    DR. CLARKsaid the explanation of the reprinting of certain papers was the habit of the Government when an Order of the Day was called was to say "this day."
    Vote agreed to.
    11. £13,904, to complete the sum for Woods, Forests, and Land Revenues, &c. Office.
    Resolutions to be reported.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a sum, not exceeding £13,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for Her Majesty's Foreign and other Secret Services."
    Whereupon Motion made, and Question, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again,"—(Mr. Dillon)—put, and agreed to.
    Resolutions to be reported upon Thursday; Committee also report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

    SUPPLY [9TH JULY].
    Resolution reported.
  CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES, 1897–8.

    CLASS II.
    "That a sum, not exceeding £26,247, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1898, for the salaries and expenses of the Office of Public Works in Ireland."
    MR. P. J. POWERsaid the position as to the new route to England was in a most unsatisfactory position so far as the Fishguard and Rosslare line was concerned. He did not intend to enter into the merits of the respective tenders, but he urged that a decision should be come to at once. He thought there could be no doubt as to the great importance of this new route to England viâ Waterford. The people who had to pay this large guarantee were more interested in this matter than anyone else, and they had not had a proper opportunity of going into the pros and cons of the rival schemes. His constituents were inclined to think that considerably more liberal offers than had been made might be made, for it was notorious that if one forced a sale the seller was placed at a great disadvantage. The people, who were still liable for £252,000, had a right to demand that nothing should be done in a hurry. When the Vote was in Committee he urged that the entire sum of £93,000 should be remitted, and under all the circumstances he did not think that that was an unreasonable request. The Treasury, however, refused to accede to that proposition, and had determined to foreclose and sell at once. He had no, doubt that that was a convenient course for the Treasury, but it was a most inconvenient proceeding for those whom he had the honour to represent. He suggested that the Government should not charge the interest of the next two years in this case. In the meanwhile, County Councils would be established in Ireland, and the decision as to what should be done should be left to them. By foregoing the interest for two years, the Government would give people time to think what was the best course.
    MR. J. C. FLYNNsaid that naturally the cess-payers were anxious to relieve themselves of the crushing liability resting upon them. The public were not made aware of the offers that were made to the Treasury on behalf of the

    1307
    railway companies until Friday last. He was sure the right hon. Gentleman would recognise that where the interests were so large it would take some little time for the matter to be fairly discussed and weighed. The question concerned not alone the cess-payers who were paying so heavy a burden, but practically it involved a much larger issue, namely, whether there should be for Cork and the South of Ireland some alternative route to the Welsh and English markets as against the Great Southern and Western and London and North Western Railways, Cork at present being virtually in the hands of the Great Southern and Western with regard to its imports and exports except in so far as it was relieved by its sea borne trade. He did not dispute that the majority of the resolutions were in favour of the Fish-guard and Rosslare line; but the public opinion of the localities was still undetermined and he hoped that the Treasury would delay the matter for a reasonable time.
    MR. T. M. HEALYsaid he rose with a profound sense of responsibility engendered by the fact that anything the Irish Members said would have no effect on the Government, who had made up their minds on the question. A profound interest was taken in the Waterford, Dungarvan, and Lismore Railway, and it was said that there ought to be delay on the part of the Government in coming to a decision. If delay would assist the Government it was now seven years since the Act was passed to make this connection between Rosslare and Cork. But now a keen competition had suddenly sprung up, and a great element of the dramatic had been imported into the consideration of the question. What was the position from the point of view of the common or garden Irishman? The Great Southern and Western Railway Company of Ireland was in conjunction with the Great Western of England in opposing the giving of the line to the Rosslare Company. The Great Southern
    1308
    and Western Railway Company was held in no favour in Ireland. Every place through which it ran would be glad to be rid of it. It was true that amongst the people of Ireland there was a doubt as to what should be done in the matter; but he would point out that the public bodies of Cork, Fermoy, Lismore, and Dungarvan had passed resolutions begging the Goverment to sell the railway to the Rosslare Company. Waterford city, he granted, was in a contrary sense. But Waterford, if he recollected aright, paid only £1,400 out of the £14,000 guarantee; and Waterford city, as he recollected well—for he was a Member of the Select Committee at the time—sent its Mayor and Corporation over to support this route when the Act of 1890 was before the House. Then what was the case of Wexford? The Corporation, the Board of Guardians, and the Grand Jury of Wexford had passed unanimous resolutions in favour of the Rosslare Company; the Enniscorthy Guardians had done the same; and if it was any recommendation, which he doubted, the County of Wexford Lunatic Asylum Board—[laughter]—had passed a similar resolution. They were told that this was a case in which there was a possibility of doubt amongst the local people, as to what should be done with this line. He could see no doubt the Waterford city people were strongly in favour of the Great Western; all the rest were strongly in favour of the Rosslare Company. Let him say a word on the question of delay. If this proposal was to fructify into a going concern, they must have an Act of Parliament, which could not be got this year. As he understood the Standing Orders, they must table their plans in November, and the four months between now and November was none too long for civil engineers to map out this line and take levels and deviations, and so on, seeing that there would be forty miles of railway from Rosslare to the city of Waterford with two enormous bridges. If it

    1309
    were going to be made into a scheme at all, surely it was essential that the Government should make up their minds one way or the other to whom they were going to give it. If they were going to give it to the Great Western, give it them on the spot and put the people out of pain; if they were going to give it to the Rosslare people, give it them. Only have a mind and make it up somehow. ["Hear, hear!"] He quite agreed that the Great Western would be the better body for the city of Waterford, and if he lived in the city of Waterford as his hon. friend did, he would be a Great Western man; for the interest of Waterford was an important interest, and was not to be lightly set aside. In view of all the ease, however, he believed the city of Waterford was no more in danger of its traffic than in 1890, when its Mayor and Corporation unanimously supported the Rosslare scheme. He had read the two proposals, and that of the Great Western was worse in one respect, that was to say, it was shorter in amount. It was the better of the two in another sense, because it offered the Treasury cash. The Rosslare offered a larger sum, but a little more deferred. That was from the Treasury point of view. From the point of view of the baronies the Great Western tender was slightly better than the Rosslare. He thought the Government might make slightly better terms than those of either of the proposals. In one respect he thought the Great Western proposal was wholly impossible, because the moment they said they would only give £7.10s. for a £10 share, they debased the entire system upon which British credit rested. On the other hand, he thought, a little more !night be screwed out of the Rosslare Company. But whatever they decided upon, the Government should when they had come to their decision, bring in this Bill next year, and put their back into it, and not allow a Committee of the House of Lords to reject that scheme. He was not at, all sure, in view
    1310
    of the importance of this route to England for the whole of Munster, that this was not worthy to be made into a public Bill.
    MR. P. J. POWERwished it to be understood that he had spoken simply as a county Member.
    MR. R. W. HANBURYthought there was very little to be said in favour of the proposal for delay. An opportunity had occurred for settling this question, and if they did not take advantage of it, the opportunity might never recur. Hon. Members averred that sufficient time had not been given to the people of the locality to make up their minds, but if hon. Members were to see the number of resolutions which he had received in favour of one scheme or the other, and if they knew how many deputations had been anxious to see him on this subject on the one side and the other, they would, he thought, no longer doubt that the locality had had sufficient time to prove its opinions. He held that they onght to come definitely to terms with one or other of the competing companies. From the first there had been three interests to consider, namely the taxpayer, the ratepayer, and the locality generally. He wished to point out that he had not considered the taxpayer exclusively. In proof of that he might mention that the Treasury had received a far better offer front the Great Southern and Western Railway Company, which they had rejected, because they did not want to throw the whole of this district into the hands of one Company. if nothing were done and if the matter were to remain entirely in the hands of the present directorate and shareholders, the ratepayers and locality, he believed, would benefit much less than they would if the line were handed over to either of the Companies that were tendering, for in addition to the sums which these Companies were offering to the Treasury for the mortgage, they were making certain concessions both to the rate-

    1311
    payers and to the locality. It vas highly important in the interests of ratepayers that there should be a good railway system throughout the South of Ireland, a system that would develop traffic. The hon. Member for North Louth had rather taunted him for not having made up his mind at once, but he had been waiting simply in order that the locality might be able to express its views. He had received many resolutions from Boards of Guardians and other bodies, but he had not yet received all the deputations from the South of Ireland who were anxious to interview him. It would not be right to make up his mind until he had seen these deputations, but he hoped he should have received the last of them by the end of this week, and he should do his best to arrive at a decision by Monday or Tuesday next, so that he might announce his decision before the House rose.
    Resolution agreed to.

    SUPPLY [19th JULY].
    Report deferred till Thursday.
    SUPPLY [23rd JULY].
    Report deferred till Thursday.
    POST OFFICE (SITES) RE-COMMITTED BILL.
    Committee deferred till To-morrow.
    PUBLIC WORKS LOANS (ADVANCES AND REMISSION OF DEBT).
    Committee thereupon deferred till Tomorrow.
    NAVY AND ARMY EXPENDITURE, 1895–96
    Committee thereupon deferred till Tomorrow.
    EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
    BURIAL JOINT COMMITEES BILL
    Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
    PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.
    Committee deferred till To-morrow.
    SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (IRELAND) BILL.
    Committee deferred till To-morrow.
    METROPOLITAN POLICE. (BORROWING POWERS) BILL.
    Committee deferred till To-morrow.
    DANGEROUS PERFORMANCES BILL.
    Committee deferred till To-morrow.

    POST OFFICE (EAST INDIA, CHINA, AND AUSTRALIA MAILS, AND AUSTRALIAN MAILS.)
    Resolved—
    "That, the Contracts dated the 25th day of May 1897, entered into with the Peninsular and Oriental Steam Navigation Company and the Orient Steam Navigation Company, for (1) the Eastern and part of the Australian Mail Service and (2) the other part of the Australian Mail Service be approved."—(Mr. Hanbury.)
    Whereupon, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 15th day of this instant July, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.
    House adjourned accordingly at Twenty Minutes before Two o'clock.

PILOTAGE PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), with the amendment, and passed, and returned to the Commons.
LONDON UNIVERSITY COMMISSION BILL [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order): Then Standing Order No. 39 considered (according to Order), and dispensed with; Bill read 3a: An amendment made; Bill passed and sent to Commons.
MERCHANT SHIPPING (EXEMPTIONS FROM PILOTAGE) BILL [H.L.]
Considered in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.
POOR LAW BILL.
Considered in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.
CONSTABULARY (IRELAND) BILL [H.L.]
Considered in Committee (according to Order): kill reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.
COTTON CLOTH FACTORIES BILL.
Read 3a (according to Order), and passed.

SCHOOL BOARDS' EXPENSES BILL.
*On the Motion "That the House do resolve itself into Committee on this Bill,
*LORD NORTONmoved to leave out "now," and add at the end of the Motion "this day three months." He deprecated the proposal of the Bill, which was to allow any three members of a School Board to hold conferences, the expenses of which would be put upon the rates. Not only that, but they might make an annual institution of these meetings He believed that the secret of the success of the country lay in its distribution of self administration, but unfortunately the tendency of the different boards and councils was not to attend to their business as executive bodies but to turn immediately to talking and discussing. Every body, it seemed, must make itself a little Parliament. That this tendency was growing was shown by many instances such its the school teachers forming themselves into a guild, told even the Inspectors of the Education Department debating within the walls of their office. What was almost new in this Bill was the proposal to charge the expenses of these conferences upon the public taxation. As it was the charges made by the School Boards on the rates were increasing with rapidity every year, and now they were to have power to make a new kind of charge for discussions of the business assigned them by Parliament. It might be asked why School. Boards only should have this privilege, and not managers of Voluntary Schools also. The School Boards had got a Government Bill which had slipped through without anyone knowing anything about it, and if similar bodies could get voting power enough to get themselves attended to by the Government they would take the hint given them by the Bill. The expense to the rates was not so mischievous as the principle. They did not know the liabilities they were incurring from day to day while secret official conferences were going on. It was detrimental to the public service that these bodies

1207
should be perpetually conferring secretly, "and sharing with the Department the responsible authority of Parliament. They did not know how far these administrative bodies warped the judgment of Government, and trenched on the functions of Legislatures. It was useless to hope to extinguish this Bill this year. But he was glad of the opportunity of calling attention to the Bill, for he was perfectly certain the secret of success of the Bill in having reached the present stage was that none of their Lordships and none in the other House knew anything about it.
*THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY (Lord JAMES of HEREFORD)said his noble Friend the Lord President had asked him to express the hope that the House would allow the Bill to proceed. The Bill had passed every stage in the other House and he was not aware that Government Bills slipped through as his noble Friend suggested without being subjected to criticism. The noble Lord had drawn an exaggerated picture of extravagance. The whole of the expenses that could be incurred under the Bill was probably not more than that of three persons attending a conference once a year. Similar power had not been conferred on Voluntary Schools because they had the power already. They could pay these expenses out of voluntary funds without any statutory enactment. But in the case of rates regulated by Parliament even a small sum could not be paid out of the rates without a Bill being introduced. In the opinion of the Education Department, these conferences were of great utility, and the expense was infinitesimal.
VISCOUNT KNUTSFORDsaid he was in favour of the Bill and of the conferences too. School Boards could not send more than three representatives to a conference, but in the Bill there appeared to be no limit of the number of conferences to which they could be sent in a year. It should be provided that no School Board should make any payment under the Act for more than one conference in a year. Unless there was some such limitation a School Board could send representatives to 10 or 15 conferences in a year.
LORD JAMES OF HEREFORDsaid the point should be considered. Hitherto,
1208
he believed, there had been only one conference a year. The Education Department, however, had full control over the expenditure of School Boards.
EARL FORTESCUEhoped the House would bear in mind that this was not a desirable time to increase the burdens of the ratepayers, inasmuch as through a large part of the country the real property on which alone the rates were a burden had enormously depreciated in value. It was not undesirable that the House should interfere for the protection of the ratepayers who were also taxpayers from additional burdens—he did not say for purposes absolutely undesirable, far from it, but which did not seem so urgently required as to justify the imposition of additional burdens on the kind of property which had been particularly depreciated in value. How it should have passed the House of Representatives which was generally pretty vigilant in protecting the pockets of the people, or at least had the credit of being, he could hardly conceive. But as School Boards had now ever since 1870, somehow or other managed to get on more or less well, frugally or extravagantly as the case might be, it did not seem unreasonable that they should continue for one year longer to discharge their duties, without imposing this additional burden through a great part of the country on a deeply suffering interest. ["Hear, hear!"]
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid he felt some doubt whether the Education Department had power to limit the number of conferences for the reason that the enacting part of the Bill said "the reasonable expenses of the Members of the Board may be paid in attending any conferences." There should be power to limit the number of conferences, and so check any undue expense.
LORD NORTONsaid that as the matter was to be considered by the Report stage of the Bill he would withdraw his Motion.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Motion agreed to.
House in Committee accordingly; reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.

NAVAL WORKS BILL.
Brought from the Commons, read 1a, to be printed, and to be read 2a on Thursday next—(The Lord Churchill).—(No. 182.)

FINANCE ACT (CHILDLESS WIDOWS).
LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYrose to ask Her Majesty's Government whether they will return the duties levied on childless willows On their own moneys during 1894 and 1895, seeing that, by the Amendment in this respect enacted in 1896, the Government have admitted that the levying of these duties in 1894 and 1895 was due to an unjust misinterpretation of Sir William Harcourt's Act, and that, therefore, such return becomes obligatory on Her Majesty's Government, and would form no precedent in the case of future remission of taxation, which might be excessive without being unjust; and to move for a return of the amount paid by childless widows in 1894 and 1895, and previous to the passing of the Finance Act of 1896, which would not have been levied if the Act of 1896 had been retrospective. The noble Lord said the grievance which he wished to bring under the notice of Her Majesty's Government and of the House might be best set forth and explained stating the cases with the details of which he was acquainted, though he had no personal knowledge of either of the victims. The first of these cases was that of the widow of a village doctor married in 1887, who had money in securities, giving her £120 per annum. She had inherited this money from her father in 1882, and had then paid succession duty on it. It was settled at her marriage on her children, with life interest to her husband. Her husband died in 1894 leaving her only a bad debt, but as she was held to have benefited by her husband's death, because her money reverted to her absolute use she had to pay £72 settlement or estate duty in addition to probate and estate duty. He brought this case under the notice of the public, in a letter addressed to the Trading Journal in Feb. 1895, and at that time he exonerated Sir William Harcourt from the intentional injustice of making a widow pay duty twice upon her own money, since
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in that letter he said that the Finance Act of 1894 should have been called the Bungling Act rather than the Burgling Act, the name by which it was commonly spoken of at that time. He knew of his own knowledge that many officials at Somerset House declared their inability to give a decided opinion as to the sums that might have to he levied under that Act; so complicated it was. Until 1894 what was popularly called the Budget, used to be called the Appropriation Bill, but in 1894 it was termed a Finance Bill, either in imitation of French Parliamentary procedure, or because of its revolutionary nature and extensive innovations on the old succession duties. In France, however, where these duties were heavy, no duty would he levied upon widows in circumstances similar to those now brought before the House, as he had been informed lately by an official of the Ministère des Finances. The second case was that of a lady who became a widow in 1895. She had had to pay £1,836 estate duty, and £650 for aggregation on a sum of £30, 600, most of which was her own money in settlement and which reverted to her absolutely on her husband' s death. The greater part of this money came to her from her mother, who died in 1866, when £230 8s. 4d. was sold out to pay succession duty and costs There was a special hardship in this case, that the widow was 78 when her husband died, an age at which more rather than less comforts are required, and in the course of nature her money must soon pay duty, when it passed to her relatives, many of whom were needy, and would suffer much by this diminution of her capital by nearly £2,500. This widow's husband was 86 when he died, and his brother who succeeded him is now 86, so that at his death, which cannot be far distant, the estate also will suffer seriously. He represented this case to the Chancellor of the Exchequer rather more fully than he had done now, giving him names and particulars; and urged that as he ha d amended the Act of 1894 in 1896 with respect to this class of widows, the amending Act ought to have been retrospective, as was expected by the authorities of Somerset House—for he knew that Somerset House had suspended some claims under this head, pending the passing of the Act of 1896. In his reply the

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Chancellor of the Exchequer informed him that the question of making the Amendment retrospective was fully considered, but that he could not find any precedent, and that he could not make one for the reason that although in this particular matter the amounts paid or due might not be large, and therefore the sum to be remitted under retrospective legislation would not be great, yet in most remissions of taxation the contrary would be the case, and a single precedent would be quoted so as to hamper any Chancellor of the Exchequer in any desire to relieve the taxpayer. He submitted to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and he submitted to Her Majesty's Government, that this argument confused and confounded excessive taxation with unjust taxation; or, as he preferred to describe it, an unjust levying of a tax through misinterpretation of the Act of 1894. It was due to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that a few days ago he told him that his concession to ship-owners of a drawback on coffee taken on board for the consumption of the crew, was an instance of claims that might be made upon him if he admitted the precedent of a return of the widows' money. He submitted that this concession could not give any claim to a drawback on past shipping of coffee not intended for exportation. The cases were in no way similar. Shippers might have bought coffee in all the ports of Great Britain; the widows were few in number, and their payments easily ascertained in Somerset House; and they had a moral claim, which the shippers had not got. This concession of drawback might lead to a trade in coffee before a ship left port, entailing more trouble on the coastguard. The view that the levying of duty on widows was due to misinterpretation was borne out by the fact that Sir William Harcourt did not oppose the amending Act of his successor in 1896. If he was wrong in denying that Sir William Harcourt had foreseen and did not intend this injustice, he could be contradicted by any of the noble Lords, his former colleagues. He maintained that Sir W. Harcourt was up to the last moment unconscious of the effects of his Act, for when the Chancellor of the Exchequer moved his Amendment in regard to this matter, Sir W. Harcourt asked for an explanation of the clause; and
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Mr. Gibson Bowles replied that the object of it was the reparation of an oversight in the right hon. Gentleman's own Act. Sir W. Harcourt followed Mr. Bowles, and he did not contradict him, neither did he oppose the amending clause, but he said that Mr. Bowles could not understand the difference between Succession Duty on what a man got, and Estate Duty on what a man left. This is the Radical view of the Finance Act of 1894, of punishing a man after his death for being rich. If Sir W. Harcourt's political friends wished to exonerate him completely, they ought to support his request to Her Majesty's Government, for Sir W. Harcourt had passed away into political purgatory, and it was for them to take him out of it. It made little difference to the widows who had suffered or to the public at large whether they suffered through the injustice of the Act of 1894, or through its misinterpretation. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer stated that the action of the law in 1894 and 1893 was unjust, and he had proved this belief by his amending Act. Those Members of Her Majesty's Government who held the doctrine of continuity of government, were thereby bound to admit the solidarity of their Government with that of their predecessors, and whilst maintaining· an Act of their predecessors, were bound to repair the damages mid pay for the breakage occasioned by it; especially so when the Act was only passed two years before, CP d the amount to be remitted was admitted to be small. At any rate the Government was responsible for the acts of the permanent officials. The recent language of the Chancellor of the Exchequer at the Mansion House favoured this view. He there stated that,—
"generally speaking, our revenue was easily raised, because our system was based on sound economical principles. The credit of this, if it were due to anyone, was due to a long succession of distinguished predecessors of his, who had pursued a consistent financial policy."
This statement of his obligation to his predecessor for filling his coffers, was not quite in accordance with his statement to him that the widows of 1894 and 1895 must blame his predecessor. His predecessor could not rectify the error or the oversight in the Act of 1894, or the misinterpretation of that Act; the power to

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do so was in the hands of the present Chancellor of the Exchequer; and his praise of the consistent financial policy on sound economical principles of his predecessor should bind him to rectify a departure by his predecessor from sound economical principles which must include just ice. It was due to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to mention that he told him that when speaking at the Mansion House he was not thinking of Sir William Harcourt's Death Duties, but of the Free Trade policy of the country; hut his spoken words at the Mansion House covered both sources of revenue, and Sir William Harcourt's Act had had the greater effect in filling the coffers of the Exchequer. Whilst the Chancellor of the Exchequer was heedless of the fearful denunciations in Exodus of those who harassed and oppressed widows, he was equally indifferent to the effect which his refusal to do justice must have upon the elections. It was not his particular business to think of them, that was the gene-nil concern of Her Majesty's Government. The Chancellor of the Exchequer's words at the Mansion House showed how little he was acquainted with public feeling—for he said there that there was no grudging of sums spent on education. Since that the Budget of the London School Board had been presented, and nothing but grudging was to be found in the Press, from the leading journal to the halfpenny papers. A few weeks ago the noble Earl who moved a Resolution with respect to duties on works of Art, called the Chancellor of the Exchequer a grasping Chancellor. From this speech at the Mansion House he should call him a spendthrift Chancellor. The Latin grammar showed that the two characters might be united in the same person, and the sentence in the grammar might be translated: "Greedy of Death Duties—lavish of Education Grants." The Chancellor of the Exchequer lend given him a good reason for not, pressing for the Return mentioned in the Notice. He wrote to him that all the accounts between 1894 and 1896 would have to be examined, probably 60,000 in all. This number of total accounts would cause no difficulty if Her Majesty's Government consented to indemnify the widows, who could then put in their claims. The Chancellor went on to say, "You may safely infer that the duty in question
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would amount only to a small sum, but it is the principle and not the cost to which I object." Principle was a word which had lately been rather discredited. It could hardly apply to a refund of money levied on widows, whilst the whole. of the clause was not made retrospective, and nothing was done for widowers, whilst the Income Tax Department was continually returning taxes levied under Schedules B and D. This principle of not refunding seemed to have had its origin in the popular saying "that it was easier to get butter out a dog's mouth than money out of the Treasury "—from which Chancellors of the Exchequer had arrived at an elementary belief that their first duty was never to let go any money that had once entered their coffers. He concluded by asking Her Majesty's Government whether they were determined to retain money levied in 1894 and 1895, the levying of which they declared to be unjust in 18961 It was his private belief that Sir Michael Hicks Beach would be glad if the Government were to put pressure upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)observed that he could not give an answer beyond this—that any application of the sort would, no doubt, be generously attended to by the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the time being. In that House it would be inappropriate to say anything on the subject further than that the Treasury were always extremely generous anal considerate in every application that was made to them. ["Hear, hear!"]

BRITISH SOUTH AFRICA.
LORD LOCHasked whether Her Majesty's Government were yet in a position, upwards of 18 months having elapsed since the invasion of the Transvaal by the forces of the South African Chartered Company, to inform the House if it was the intention of the Government to introduce any alteration in the administrative system of the countries, both south and north of the Zambesi, within the area of the South Africa Company's charter; and, to enable the House to have a full knowledge of the position, whether the Government would lay on tine Table of the House any Reports that

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might have been received from Colonel Sir Richard Martin with respect to the present and past manner in which the South Africa Chartered Company had conducted the government of those countries, and also any remarks Earl Grey might have made on any such Reports. The noble Lord said he did not expect nor desire that any answer that might be given him should enter into details with regard to what the future administration should be, but what he was anxious to obtain was an assurance that it was the intention to amend the administration of these countries so that Imperial control should be able to be exercised more strictly than it had been in the past. He had no desire whatever to attack the Chartered Company. They had, he considered, done great service in the past for this country in the manner in which they had extended and added great provinces to the Empire. He thought, however, it was desirable, and it was expected both amongst the English and the Dutch in South Africa, that a greater control should in future be exercised by the Imperial power over the management and administrative authority of the company. It was neither his desire, nor was it in the public interest, that any interference should take place with regard to the commercial and other interests of the company, but they should extend those interests under proper supervision, and he trusted that in the consideration the Government might give to this question, the interests of the company might be preserved by having the power of representation upon the council or legislative body which, he presumed, would be continued in those countries. At the same time the Government should appoint an administrator entirely independent of all local influence and control, so that they might be safeguarded in future, and provided the company was given a proper and sufficiently large voice in the administration of the country through having nominees on the council, he thought such a proposal as he suggested would meet with general approval, not only throughout the South African colonies, but in Mashonaland and Matabeleland themselves. He believed there was a general desire for this representation, the Crown having power to put nominees on the council. It was understood that Mr. Rhodes would
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be deprived of all authority and power when he was removed from the directorate of the company, but it would be noticed he had recently been holding meetings with the great chiefs at Bulawayo, and discussing very important questions, as, for instance, that of forced labour. There was considerable difference of opinion as to what forced labour was. It was held by some that labour was only forced when men were compelled at the point of the bayonet to work for wages; and when an agreement was entered into with the chief to supply men and payment was made, that was not forced labour. The distinction was a very narrow one, and within his own experience of South Africa he had had to check the sysem of applying to a chief for the supply of labour, because upon the chief hesitating to do this, action was taken to compel the chief to supply the labour required. That, he considered, was as much forced labour as if men were forced at bayonet point to work. Here was an additional reason why the administrator of this great country should be entirely independent of all control that might be exercised upon him if connected with the company. He hoped Her Majesty's Government would be able to give an assurance that this question would receive their early attention, and that the administration of these vast territories would be brought under the more direct control of the Imperial power, acting, whoever might be the administrator appointed for the purpose, under the High Commissioner.
THE PRIME MINISTER (the Marquess of SALISBURY): My noble Friend who represents the Colonial Office is not in his place, and I can give to the noble Lord only a very summary answer, I am afraid, to the questions he has addressed to us. He will have observed that it was stated last night by the Colonial Secretary that there is no intention of withdrawing the charter of the South Africa Company, but that there were certain modifications it would be necessary to introduce into its substance and working. So far as that we can safely go, and that is about as much as I think it would be possible under the circumstances in either House to state. Clearly the measures to be taken cannot, I think, with any propriety or expediency be explained in either House before they are

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actually taken. Therefore I am not able to go into any of the details into which the noble Lord invites me. I am aware of the extreme difficulty of the particular question he has specially dwelt upon; it is a Question which is always the difficulty with all who have to deal with semi-civilised or uncivilised, and especially African tribes. But I cannot do more than give an undertaking, which the noble Lord invites me to give, and naturally expects me to give, that in dealing with the question we shall have the greatest possible regard to the interests of the inhabitants and the principles upon which it has been the habit of the British Government to administer territories of this kind. The question presents difficulties and diversities in every part of Africa, and any hope we have of solving it with Measures which will not produce disturbances and arrest of the progress of civilisation must depend on the care, judgment, and circumspection exercised, and I do not think their effective consummation would be assisted by discussing beforehand the details of measures that are to be adopted. There are, as we well know, very constant, though not easily intelligible channels of communication between this country and even the least cultivated of the chiefs with whom we have to deal; therefore, I am afraid we are obliged to preserve a certain amount of reticence which at another period of our history it was not thought necessary to adopt. I can only assure the noble Lord that the subject to which he has alluded engages the anxious attention of the Colonial Office, and that part of Africa in which he is interested does not yield to other parts of Africa in the enormous increase of the solicitude the difficulties of the problem have imposed on all European Governments, and especially of the Government of this country, in South Africa.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid the noble Lord had not answered the Question in reference to Papers. He believed they had been laid on the Table in the other House.
THE PRIME MINISTER: Of course, they will he laid on the Table of this House, and any Papers we can produce, but I cannot say beforehand what Papers we shall be able to present.

OUTDOOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
Read 1a; to be printed; and to be Bead 2a on Thursday next.—(The Earl of Denbigh.)—(No. 183.)
House Adjourned at Twenty-five Minutes past Five o'Clock, to Thursday next, a Quarter past Ten o'Clock.