Sitting of 22 July 1897

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY (IRELAND) BILL. [H.L.]
  Order for Consideration, as amended, read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now considered:"—
  MR. T. M. HEALYsaid that there were one or two Matters connected with this Measure to which he would like to refer. In the first place he was glad to find that the time for completing the portion of the line

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  that was to be constructed upon public roads was to be reduced from three years to two. It would have been most unfortunate if the time for constructing that part of the line had been allowed to be protracted over three years when two would suffice. This was the first occasion on which a railway company in Ireland had been allowed to run their line along a public road, and the proposed line would run through one of the most beautiful spots in the country. In order to obtain easier gradients the company proposed to deviate in some places some 80 or 90 yards from the existing public roads, and in such cases he thought that the public ought to be allowed to take advantage of the easier gradients that would be made by the railway company, at all events as far as foot passengers and cyclists were concerned. In order to give the railway company time to consider the matter he begged to move that the Debate be adjourned. ["Hear, hear!"]
  *MR. J. W. LOWTHER (CHAIRMAN of WAYS AND MEANS)thought that he ought to say that he associated himself entirely with the views that had just been expressed upon this matter by the hon. and learned Member for Louth. It was desirable in the interests of those who promoted this Measure and of those whom the hon. and learned Gentleman represented that the Debate should be adjourned. He might say that the negotiations between the parties interested were approaching a conclusion, and that in all probability they would result in a satisfactory arrangement being arrived at. He hoped that the House would in these circumstances assent to the Motion for the adjournment of the Debate.
  Motion agreed to; Debate adjourned.

QUESTIONS.

  IRISH MAIL SERVICE.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether the Waterford Limerick and Western Railway Company, under
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  statutory notice from the postal authorities, are starting the morning mails from Limerick to Ennis at 10.12, or three minutes before the 7.0 a.m. from Tralee is timed to arrive at Limerick, so that for all practical purposes there is now no through communication between the west and north of Limerick viâ Ennis; and, can he cause a notice to be served on the Waterford Limerick and Western Company to detain the Ennis mails for at least 15 minutes, so as to form a connection?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY, Preston): The Waterford Limerick and Western Railway Company, not under statutory notice from the Postmaster General, but under arrangement, are starting the day mail train from Limerick to Ennis at 10.12 a.m., which is, it appears, three minutes before the 7.0 a.m. train from Tralee is timed to arrive at Limerick. A detention of the train for 15 minutes or longer in order to afford a connection with the 7.0 a.m. train from Tralee, which is not a mail train, would be detrimental to the Post Office service, and is not an alteration which the Postmaster General would feel justified in pressing upon the company. It is understood, however, that the company are considering whether by any means they can arrange to bring the 7.0 a.m. train earlier to Limerick and thus effect the desired object.
  MR. W. O'MALLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, what steps, if any, he proposes to take to remedy the inconvenience occasioned in the late delivery of letters throughout the greater part of Connemara since the acceleration of the mails; and whether he will also take steps to have the letters delivered at the houses of the principal people in the various districts, as the present arrangement, by which persons have to send to the post offices for their letters, is most unsatisfactory?
  MR. HANBURY: The Postmaster General has made careful inquiry in this matter, and has I believe explained to the hon. Member by letter the cause of the later delivery of letters in Connemara, and the reason why it is not practicable to reduce that delay by more than a few minutes. The explanation of

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  course is that the arrival in Dublin of the day mail trains from the provinces was made 50 minutes later in order to give provincial trains the largest possible intervals for replies to English letters, and as a necessary consequence the dispatch of the night mail trains from Dublin to the provinces was made later to the same extent to maintain the connections between the inward day mails and the outward night mails. The various surveyors' proposals, for extending the delivery of letters throughout the United Kingdom, in accordance with the promise of the Budget speech, are being received; and the proposals, after examination, will be carried into effect without any unnecessary delay. The work of extending the deliveries in all parts of the country must necessarily occupy a considerable time.

  WAR OFFICE STORES (RAILWAY CHARGES).
  MR. W. E. M. TOMLINSON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War whether his attention has been directed to the result of the proceedings under Section 31 of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act 1888, on the complaint of the War Office against the South Eastern Railway Company (reported at page 43 of the 5th Report of the Board of Trade of proceedings under that Section presented to Parliament during the present month): whether the War Office complained of excessive charges on stores conveyed to Woolwich Arsenal and Dockyard; whether the proceedings have terminated by the meeting at the Board of Trade between the parties referred to in the Report as being one at which an amicable settlement could not be arrived at; whether an amicable settlement has subsequently been arrived at; and whether, in default of an amicable settlement, the War Office intend to carry their case before the Railway Commissioners?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK, Surrey, Guildford): The War Office did complain of certain charges made by the South Eastern Railway. Correspondence on the subject is still taking place with the Railway Company, and while nego-
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  tiations are pending, it appears undesirable to commit the War Office to any course.

  QUEEN'S COLLEGES' PROFESSORS.
  MR. LEES KNOWLES: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, inasmuch as the Treasury Commission of 1876 reported that the claims of the professional professors of the Queen's Colleges to retiring allowances should be admitted, as in the case of the Scotch Universities; that the public would be at a disadvantage if the activity of the professional professors were limited to their college life; and that professional practice is essential to sound and efficient teaching, and that the Commission recommended that the rule which renders engagements in the professional practice incompatible with a claim to retiring allowance should be re-considered in the case of the Queen's Colleges' professional professors in Ireland, whether he will, in accordance with that Report, re-consider the case?
  MR. HANBURY: The Report of the 1876 Commission was carefully considered by the Government of the day, who decided that the retention of private practice was inconsistent with the grounds on which public pensions are granted. Their view was that, if the private practice was not considerable it would be of little use in promoting a professor's efficiency, and if it was considerable it would enable him to make provision for himself to the same extent as other practioners. This decision has been maintained by all subsequent Governments. It can hardly be argued that a professor who has the advantages of a private practice should also have the pension rights which are intended to compensate the whole-time professors for the loss of those advantages. I have already explained, in answer to a previous question, that the case of the Scotch professors is not analogous, as they were not pensioned under the General Superannuation Acts but under a special statute, the Scotch Universities Act of 1858, which gave the Treasury no power to require whole time.
  MR. KNOWLESasked how the Department knew that these gentlemen did not give their whole time to the public service?
  MR. HANBURYsaid that if the' Treasury knew that a Professor had undertaken private practice they knew that he could not have given his whole time to the public service.
  MR. J. C. FLYNNasked whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware that some of the professors at the Queen's College, Cork, were medical men who carried on their private practice?
  MR. HANBURYsaid that he was aware of that fact.

  BIRR AND PORTUMNA RAILWAY (IRELAND).
  MR. BERNARD MOLLOY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if his attention has been drawn to the present position of the derelict railway from Birr to Portumna, and the position of the Public Works Loan Commissioners in relation thereto, and the impossibility of recovering any portion of the advance; and whether the Treasury will now consider the advisability of taking some steps to enable the property to be utilised?
  MR. HANBURY: I am aware of the present position of the railway mentioned. The only step which the Public Works Loan Commissioners could take is to put it up for sale, and I am not sure that anything would be gained by so doing, but if the hon. Member has any definite suggestion to make, it will nodoubt be carefully considered. The question of reconstructing the line is one for the Irish Government, not for the Commissioners, and I understand that my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary explained the views of his Department on that point on the 29th March last.

  TOKAT MASSACRE.
  MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in respect to the result of the Tokat Commission, (1) whether any of the 15 prisoners found guilty of participation in the massacre of the unoffending Armenians at Tokat, and sentenced to death (and whose sentences have been confirmed by the Council of Ministers at Constantinople) have yet suffered the penalty of the law; (2) if so, how many; and (3) if not, what is the cause of the delay of the issue of the Sultan's Iradé?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS(MR. G. N. CURZON, Lancashire, Southport): None of the prisoners sentenced to death has, so far, been executed. The last question is one which I am not in a position to answer.

  SALE OF STAMPS AND POSTCARDS.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON (Canterbury): I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that it is not possible to purchase a stamp, a postcard, or a stamped envelope at the great railway stations at Paddington, Euston, Victoria, Waterloo, Liverpool Street, New Street (Birmingham), Templemead (Bristol), etc., although letters can be posted at most of these places; and whether he will make arrangements forthwith to supply this want?
  MR. HANBURY: The Postmaster General is aware that no official arrangements exist for the sale of stamps and postcards within the railway stations named, though post offices are maintained in their immediate vicinity. At Euston there is a post office at the entrance to the station. Hitherto it has not been found practicable to get these facilities provided; but the Postmaster General would be very glad if arrangements could be made for providing them.
  MR. HENNIKER. HEATONasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would not in connection with this matter open negotiations with Messrs. W. H. Smith and Company?
  MR. HANBURY: That has been done some time ago.

  TELEPHONE AND TELEGRAPH SERVICES.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, under what Act of Parliament and by what authority the Postmaster General, on entering into a contract with a rural district to supply a telegraph office in return for a money payment from the locality is entitled to alter the contract to his own advantage by substituting a telephone for the telegraph?
  MR. HANBURY: In contracts of the kind referred to by the hon. Member there is no provision as to the particular form of instrument to he used. The guarantee for a telegraph extension is based on the most suitable method of serving the office, and if a telephone is used it is because it offers advantages over other forms of telegraph apparatus, such for instance as the lower cost of apparatus and the greater facility with which it can be worked by any sub-postmaster. The working expenses being reduced the cost to the guarantors is also reduced. The hon. Member is no doubt aware that it has been judicially decided that a telephone is a telegraph.

  SIERRA LEONE (BRITISH OFFICIALS).
  MR. ERNEST FLOWER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether in view of the recent mortality amongst British officials in Sierra Leone, he will endeavour to allow the same rules as to leave in that Colony which are in force in the Gold Coast Colony; and what extra cost to the Colony this change would involve?
  THE SECRETARY of STATE FOR THE COLONIES ( Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN, Birmingham, W.): Nothing has occurred to lead me to modify an opinion expressed in the answer which I gave the hon. Member for East Norfolk on March 12. With regard to the cost, additional officers would have to be appointed to supply the places of those absent, and additional expenses would have to be incurred for passages, to say nothing of the indirect loss to the public service through more frequent changes; but the exact amount cannot be stated without reference to the Colony.

  LABOURERS ACTS (IRELAND).
  DR. TANNER: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether his attention has been directed to several resolutions forwarded to him by Boards of Guardians, the latest from the Thurles Union, asking for an amendment under the Labourers Acts so far as to equalise all schemes of cottages under the Act, giving acre plots to all; further, that the expense be borne by the Exchequer, as some restitution for over-taxation; (2)
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  and whether any steps in furtherance or favour of these resolutions is in contemplation?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR, Leeds, Central): I have seen the resolution passed by the Thurles Guardians on this subject. The reply to the second paragraph is in the negative.

  VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS ASSOCIATIONS.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether the Government can grant the Return relating to Associations of Voluntary Schools, which stands on the Paper for this day?
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir JOHN GORST, Cambridge University): No, Sir; the Committee of Council do not expect to be in possession of the necessary information for several months.

  CANADIAN MAIL SERVICE.
  MR. O'MALLEY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if he will state what is the present position of the proposed mail service to Canada: what is the limit of time allowed the contractors to complete the proposed arrangements; and, whether they have deposited the amount (£20,000) necessary as a guarantee of good faith for the carrying out of the contract?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: The contract has been approved by Her Majesty's Government and the Dominion Government, and ratified by the Dominion Parliament. Two steamers are to be ready to commence the service before May 31, 1899, and the remaining two not later than May 1, 1900. The contractors have agreed to deposit with the Minister of Finance, Canada, within 60 days of the notification of the approval of Her Majesty's Government, the sum of £10,000 sterling and a guarantee to the satisfaction of the Minister for a further sum of £10,000 as security for the performance of the contract. The period of 60 days has not yet fully elapsed, and Her Majesty's Government have not yet been informed that the deposit has been made.

  POST OFFICE, DUBLIN.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMONDI beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether the Postmaster General is aware that, in connection with the vacancies on the classes of assistant superintendents, clerks, and sorting clerks whilom first class, General Post Office, Dublin, aspirants for these positions are energetically exercising extraneous influence with the authorities to secure the same; and if he will state upon what claims he will base the promotions when they are made, and when they will be announced; also, considering the dissatisfaction that was created in April 1896, by promoting a number of officers over the heads of large numbers of senior and better qualified officials, he will examine into the recommendations of the officers in this case; and, further in the event of any officer being passed over, will he supply such officers with the reasons for their supersession?
  MR. HANBURY: The Postmaster General is not aware that aspirants to promotion in the Dublin sorting office are energetically exercising extraneous influence to secure promotion. If this is the case and the facts are brought to his notice they will seriously affect the claims of those officers to promotion as they will be guilty of a distinct breach of the rules of the service. I do not understand the reference to sorting clerks whilom first class, as the sorting clerks are now all one class. The basis on which the promotions will be made will be the selection of those considered to be the best qualified for the duties to be performed. The Postmaster General makes a point of examining the recommendations which he receives of officers for promotion and he will follow the same practice in the present case; but he cannot undertake to supply any officer who may be passed over with the reasons for his supersession.

  MARYBOROUGII LUNATIC ASYLUM.
  MR. J. L. CAREW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) if his attention has been called to the memorial of the Queen's County Grand Jury, dated the 30th of last month, praying the Lord Lieutenant to confer
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  on the Governors of the Maryborough Lunatic Asylum some power of checking the expenditure of the Board of Control; (2) is he aware that one of the halls in the asylum which was used as a refectory had to be closed in consequence of the inferior wood used in the flooring, also that the Governors have no voice in controlling the expenditure of the money which they are bound to provide; and (3) whether, seeing that the Governors have more local knowledge than the Board can have of the requirements of the institution, the Government will grant the prayer of the memorial?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I have received a resolution passed on the 30th ultimo by the Queen's County Grand Jury on the subject referred to in the first paragraph. It is true that one of the halls of the asylum was closed for some time, though this was not in consequence of the inferior wood alleged to have been used in the flooring, but, according to the information supplied to me, because of the ill-usage to which the flooring had been subjected. No work, with one important exception, has been undertaken by the Board of Control in connection with this asylum without the approval of the Governors as a body, who had before them plans and estimates of the cost. The exception referred to was the case of the hurried provision of sanitary accommodation on the outbreak of an epidemic in 1891. It has been the practice of the Board of Control, in all cases, to confer with the Governors before undertaking works at the asylum, and this practice will be continued.

  RICHMOND LUNATIC ASYLUM.
  MR. CAREW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether any and what steps are being taken to check the spread of beri-beri in the Richmond Lunatic Asylum? Is he aware that the disease originates in long overcrowding, and that, though the Inspectors of Lunatics as far back as 1891 made a special report to the Governors, complaining that the Board of Control had taken no action to meet in any way the urgent requirements of the institution, with its vast population, for increased accommodation, nothing has been done to meet the requirements beyond the erection of a

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  few wooden sheds at the Richmond Asylum and a few temporary structures at Portrane, both condemned as insanitary and insufficient by Dr. Manson and Sir Thornley Stoker; and whether the first section of the permanent structure which the Board of Control is erecting at Portrane will not be available till March 1899; and, if so, what steps will be taken in the meantime to relieve the congestion?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The outbreak of beri-beri in the Richmond Asylum has been fostered by overcrowding, consequent on the rapid increase in the number of patients. Steps have been taken to meet this overcrowding by erecting temporary accommodation at the asylum, and also at Portrane, county Dublin. The patients attacked have, as far as possible, been isolated, and the buildings occupied by them bave been disinfected. The present outbreak is, so far, of a very mild type. There has been only one death attributed to it, and the general death-rate of the institution was never lower. The disease, though fostered by over-crowding, does not, it is believed, originate de novo from that cause, at least in this climate. The inspectors of lunatics did not make any complaint in 1891 that the Board of Control had taken no action to meet the urgent requirements of the institution for increased accommodation; but in their first memorandum of inspection they called the special attention of the Board of Governors to the overcrowding, and discussed the question of how increased accommodation could best be provided. Consequent on the reports of the inspectors numerous conferences were held between the Board of Control and the Board of Governors, and it was ultimately decided to build a new and fully-equipped asylum to accommodate 1,200 patients at Portrane. This asylum is now in course of erection, and it is anticipated that the first portion of it will be ready for the reception of patients in about 12 months. In addition, temporary accommodation has been provided at the Richmond Asylum for 298 patients, and at Portrane for 224, and further buildings are now being erected, which, it is anticipated, will make the total accommodation sufficient for the numbers at present in the asylum. The inspectors state that they are of
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  opinion that these temporary buildings have been erected with the greatest care, and with every precaution that sanitation requires, and that they are similar to those erected recently at the London County Asylums to provide temporary accommodation.
  MR. T. M. MEALYasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would consider the desirability of getting a specialist to examine into and report upon this strange disease or whether the right hon. Gentleman had already obtained the opinion of a specialist with regard to it?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am under the impression that a specialist did visit the asylum, and did report upon the disease, but the actual cause and origin of the outbreak still remains obscure.
  MR. T. M. HEALYasked whether that document was public property?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am not quite certain on the point, but I will make inquiries with regard to it.
  MR. EDWARD CARSONasked whether it was not the fact that there were in the asylum several hundred more lunatics than the building could conveniently hold?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No doubt there is over-crowding in the asylum, and all possible means are being taken to reduce that over-crowding.

  IRISH NATIONAL SCHOOLS.
  MR. PATRICK M'HUGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) how many applications for re-examination for results fees in the Irish National Schools in district 12 (Sligo) have been made since the present inspector took charge of it in May 1896; (2) how many of these have been refused, and on what grounds; (3) is there any other district in Ireland in which so large a number of similar applications have been made and refused within the same period; and (4) what is the total number of schools and of pupils examined for results fees, and the amount of results fees awarded in district 12 (Sligo) for each of the years ending 30th April, 1891, 1892, 1893, 1894, 1895, 1896, and 1897?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Three applications were made of the nature indicated in the first paragraph, of which

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  one was withdrawn and the remaining two were refused, as the Commissioners saw no sufficient reason for ordering a re-examination. A similar number of applications were rejected in the cases of several other districts. I have forwarded to the hon. Member the statistics asked for in the fourth paragraph, as it would not be convenient to give the information in the form of an answer to a question.

  CROOKHAVEN FISHERY PIER.
  MR. JAMES GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether his attention has been directed to the condition of the Crookhaven fishery pier; (2) is he aware that Mr. M'Carthy, a local boat-owner, has expended a sum of money on it in order to prevent it from tumbling down; and (3) whether, in view of the fact that Crook haven is an important fishing station, he will recommend that the pier be put into an efficient state of repair, and also that Mr. M'Carthy be recouped the amount of his outlay on it?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am informed that the pier at Crook haven is private property. The Board of Works have no power to take any steps with reference to the repair of the pier, inasmuch as it is not one of those vested in the Grand Jury under the 16 and 17 Vict. cap. 136. The hon. Member has supplied me with information to the effect stated in the second paragraph, but the Board of Works have no power to recommend that Mr. M'Carthy be recouped any expenditure he may have incurred. Some years ago the Grand Jury presented the sum of £120 for the repair of the pier, and it was subsequently proposed to supplement this amount by a local subscription of £150, and then to apply for a further presentment for £300—making £570 in all, for the improvement of the pier. Whether effect was given to these proposals I am not aware, though I am making inquiry.

  ILLEGAL TRAWLING (DUNDALK BAY).
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether trawling is legal in Dundalk Bay; whether several trawlers nightly fish the bay, destroying the nets
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  and lines of legitimate fishermen; whether the coastguards at Dunsany Point are frequent witnesses of the proceedings of the trawlers, but being only three in number arc unable to interfere; and if the Government will take any steps to prevent a recurrence of such proceedings?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The use of the trawl nets is illegal in Dundalk Bay. It is true that trawlers have occasionally been observed by the coastguard at work in the bay; but I am not aware that any complaints have been made this year by fishermen of the destruction of their nets or lines. The question of the protection of the fisheries in this and other waters against the encroachment of trawlers is receiving the consideration of the Government.

  POST OFFICE ESTABLISHMENTS.
  MR. THOMAS HEDDERWICk: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether the Government mean to give effect to the recommendation of the Tweedmouth Committee that the salaries of head postmasters should be increased; and if so when the Government proposes to inaugurate the change?
  MR. HANBURY: The hon. Member is inaccurate in supposing that there is any general recommendation of the Tweedmouth Committee that head postmasters' salaries should be increased. The Committee recommended that, in cases where the work of a postmaster was stationary, and he has derived consequently no advantage from the improvement of salary normally accorded for increase of business, some consideration should be shown for length of service, and that for each ten years of completed service a postmaster in receipt of less than £500 a year should receive a 10 per cent. increase of salary. Effect is being given to this recommendation.
  *MR. T. R. LEUTY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether, in view of the fact that Arthur Whitaker was in 1894 irregularly informed by an officer then in the service that he would probably receive an appointment as postman, and was by that promise induced to give up an

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  engagement, the Department can extend to him some consideration for the financial loss he has sustained since 1894 by giving him an appointment on the staff at an early date?
  MR. HANBURY: An endeavour will be made to find an established place for Arthur Whitaker, but in view of the claims of other men, the Postmaster General is unable to make a definite promise on the subject. I explained on the 15th inst. that A. Whitaker, after employment on Sundays for about a year, became an auxiliary postman at Leeds in 1894, and that he appears to have been irregularly informed by an officer, no longer in the service, without the knowledge or sanction of the Postmaster of Leeds, that he would probably receive an appointment as postman; but no actual promise was made to him.
  *MR. LEUTYasked whether he correctly understood that the Department would endeavour, if no harm would otherwise result, to carry out that promise?
  MR. HANBURY: Oh, yes; certainly.
  MR. MAURICE HEALY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, on what date the petition of the sorting staff of the Cork Post Office with regard to their hours of duty was received by the District Surveyor, and when it was forwarded by the Surveyor to headquarters, what the cause of the delay in so forwarding it was, and whether it is usual for surveyors to delay forwarding petitions of this kind; in what portion of the building the particular room in the Cork Post Office alleged to be available to the sorting staff as a retiring room during the interval from 11 p.m. to 2 a.m. is situate, and whether the room is used for any other purpose; and whether he can state in detail the nature of the experimental re-arrangement of duties said to have been recently adopted with a view to bridging over the midnight interval, when it came into force, and how many sorting clerks it has, so far, relieved from the interval in question?
  MR. HANBURY: The petition referred to was addressed to the Postmaster of Cork, and not to the Postmaster General. It reached the District Surveyor on the 5th March, and has been held over by him until the effect of
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  the recent change in the hours of duty arising out of the acceleration of the mails can be seen. A memorial of this character, only addressed to the local postmaster, is not necessarily addressed to headquarters. But the present memorial will be so forwarded when the Surveyor is in a position to report on the change mentioned. The delay is believed to have created no inconvenience, and the staff were aware of the cause. The retiring room mentioned is on the second floor of the office and is used by the telegraph staff. The Postmaster General cannot state in detail the nature of the experimental re-arrangement of the duties of the sorting staff—i.e., the combining of the duties of sorting clerks and telegraphists. It has been begun, and, so far, two officers have been afforded relief from tire midnight interval.

  RAILWAY RATES.
  MR. TOMLINSON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade why the Report of the Board of Trade as to complaint of increased rates (which is embodied in the Board's recent Report of their Proceedings under the Conciliation Clause issued this month) contains no information as to the terms of the settlements which have been arrived at between the traders and the railway companies; and whether, having regard to the fact that Reports of the Board of Trade respecting the Conciliation Clause have always explained the terms of the settlements, and also to the impossibility of ascertaining the effect of the important Act of 1894 and the present position of the increased rates question in the absence of such information, he will see his way to rectify the omission by the issue of a Supplemental Report at an early date?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. C. T. RITCHIE, Croydon): My hon. Friend is not quite accurate in stating that the Conciliation Reports "have always explained the terms of settlement." In the case of specific complaints under Section 31, as to one or two rates, it was sometimes possible to do so, but it is not possible to attempt anything of the kind with reference to the complaints filed under the

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  Act of 1894. The Board of Trade received over 1,800 complaints of increased rates, couched in very general terms, not affecting a few specified rates, but in many cases the rates from the place where the complainant carried on business to the station of every town where he had a trade. To have endeavoured to give the terms of settlement of such cases would have involved a disquisition on many thousands of rates. The Board of Trade, after bringing the parties together, had very often to leave them to work out the details of settlement, and the Report states, as a rule, the ultimate action on the complaint in the terms communicated to the Department by the complainant himself.

  HONG-KONG NAVAL ESTABLISHMENT.
  MR. J. F. HOGAN: I beg to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether a considerable extension of the Naval Establishment at Hong-Kong is contemplated; and whether he is aware that a large quantity of valuable machinery, liable to much risk of damage from climatic causes, has been landed in an unprotected condition before the erection of the proposed new engine-shops has been commenced?
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN, Worcestershire, E.): The answer to the first Question is yes, and to the second that consignments of machinery have been landed at Hong-Kong for use in case of emergency. The machinery can be erected in the open, but, if necessary, it will be protected by cheap temporary coverings until the new buildings are ready, as is usual in many private establishments in this country, so that no damage will result from climatic causes.

  COLONIAL PREMIERS IN CONFERENCE.
  MR. HOGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether the Papers embodying all that it has been thought desirable to publish in connection with the recent conferences with the Colonial Premiers will be issued before the close of the Session?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I hope so, but cannot say for a few days yet.

  WESTERN AUSTRALIA.
  MR. HOGAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the long standing difficulty with the Government of Western Australia in reference to the control and management of the aborigines of that colony has been satisfactorily adjusted; and, if so, whether there is any objection to stating the terms of the settlement?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: The difficulty has been adjusted satisfactorily. The Colonial Government and Parliament have agreed to create a special Government department to look after the interests of the natives and to superintend the distribution of the funds provided for their relief.

  LEEDS GRAMMAR SCHOOL CHARITY.
  *MR. LEUTY: I beg to ask the hon. Member for the Thirsk and Malton Division, as representing the Charity Commissioners, whether a scheme has been fully prepared for some time for the reorganisation of the Leeds Grammar School Charity, and if so, what is the nature of the opposition that has hitherto prevented the scheme being put in operation; whether he is aware that a similar scheme has been working very successfully for some time in connection with the Bradford Grammar School; and if anything can be done to extend to Leeds the benefit of such a reform?
  THE PARLIAMENTARY CHARITY COMMISSIONER (Mr. GRANT LAWSON, York, Thirsk and Malton): The Charity Commissioners some time ago submitted a scheme for the Leeds Grammar School to the Education Department, and it is to that Department that inquiry should be addressed as to the opposition to the scheme and the further steps necessary to its progress. I am aware that the Bradford Grammar School is now working with conspicuous success under a scheme framed like that for the Leeds Grammar School under the provisions of the Endowed Schools Acts.

  JUDGES OF ASSIZE (IRELAND).
  MR. D. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland whether it is the practice in Ireland for County Court Judges and

  721
  Recorders of cities to supply the Judges of Assize, before the hearing of appeals, with extra judicial information in regard to cases heard and determined by said Judges and Recorders?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. J. ATKINSON, LONDONDERRY, N.): No such practice as is mentioned in the Question, as far as I know, prevails, nor until I read the Question of the hon. Member was I aware that it had ever been suggested that it did prevail. And I may say that I do not believe that the Judges of either the Superior or County Courts are capable of resorting to it.

  TITHE MAPS.
  MR.HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether he is aware that a charge of 2s. 6d. is made by rectors to parishioners for the inspection of tithe maps kept in their custody; and whether the tithe map being one of the public books, papers, and writings of the parish, any such charge can be made for its inspection under Clause 17, Sub-section 8 of the Local Government Act 1894?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. T. W. RUSSELL, Tyrone, S.): The Tithe Act 1836 provides, by Section 64, that persons interested shall have access to the award—which includes the map—"on reasonable notice to the person having custody of the same, and on payment of 2s. 6d. for each inspection." The Local Government Board have no jurisdiction to determine questions of this character; but they arc advised that if the award and map are in the custody of the rector of the parish, he is entitled to charge this fee for each inspection.

  LISSAVAIRD SUB-POST OFFICE.
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he can now state what decision has been arrived at with regard to the establishment of a sub-post office at Lissavaird, county Cork?
  MR. HANBURY: There has been no time, since the hon. Member's Question on
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  the 16th instant, to deal with the applications for the establishment of a sub-post office at Lissavaird. It is necessary in each case to obtain accounts of letters and other information and a personal visit of a surveying officer is not un-frequently required, all of which involves time and opportunity. No needless delay will occur in dealing with the matter.

  POSTAL FACILITIES (CASTLETOWN, BEREHAVEN).
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether better postal arrangements will be made at Castletown, Berehaven, with a view to facilitate replies to letters on the day of their receipt?
  MR.HANBURY: Inquiry is being made, as promised on the 13th instant, in order to ascertain whether any alteration can be made in the arrangement of the post to Castletown, Berehaven, with a view of enlarging the interval for replying to letters on the day of receipt, and as soon as a report is received and a decision upon it arrived at the hon. Member shall be informed of the result.

  HAULBOWLINE DOCKYARD.
  CAPTAIN DONELAN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether, in view of the fact that the Black Prince has been placed at her moorings in Cork Harbour, it is intended to dock her at Haulbowline previous to sending boys on board?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. W. E. MACARTNEY, Antrim, S.): It is not intended to dock the Black Prince previous to sending boys on board.

  TEACHING STAFFS.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIR: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate if he will be good enough to state the comparative frequency of changes in the teaching staff in the school board schools and the non-public State-aided schools in Scotland respectively, as shown by the annual returns in Form IX. for the last five years?
  *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire): I am afraid I cannot answer the Hon. Member's Question. To endeavour to obtain the information desired would entail enormous labour, the examination of from 16,000 to 17,000 documents; nor could it be obtained in such a form as to make an accurate comparison possible.

  TURKEY AND GREECE.
  SIR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Ambassadors at Constantinople have suspended negotiations with the Porte regarding the new frontier; and, whether the Porte has offered to accept a line within that of the Peneuis?
  MR. CURZON: Negotiations have not been suspended; a reply to the proposals of the Ambassadors having been received from the Porte last night.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTsaid that the right hon. Gentleman had not answered the second part of his Question, and he should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman could say whether the reply was a favourable one or not.
  MR. CURZONThe reply having been received by the Admirals only last night I have not seen it, and therefore I cannot answer the right hon. Gentleman's Question to-day.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTsaid that the right hon. Gentleman might at all events answer the second part of his Question.
  MR. CURZON: The latter part of the hon. Gentleman's Question is as to the contents of the reply, which, as I have already informed him, I have not seen.

  PEACE NEGOTIATIONS.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether protocols arc drawn up of the sittings of the Conference of Ambassadors now being held at Constantinople with reference to the conditions of peace between Greece and Turkey; and if not, whether any other means are being taken, and if so, what means, to secure a record of the proceedings of the Conference?
  MR. CURZON: No actual procèsverbaux have been made of the conferences between the Ambassadors and the Turkish Foreign Minister, the Porte having originally been unwilling to acquiesce in such a proceeding. It has, however, subsequently been agreed that memoranda of the points discussed should be drawn up by one of the Ambassadors at the termination of the meetings for communication to the Turkish Foreign Minister, and the decisions arrived at are communicated to us by Her Majesty's Ambassador.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Which of the Admirals draws up this procès-verbal or minute?
  MR. CURZON: I do not think any particular Admiral does it. The duty is undertaken by different Admirals at different meetings.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: But the right hon. Gentleman said that the documents were drawn up at the end of the meeting.
  MR. CURZON: I said at the end of the meetings.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Oh, yes; certainly.

  SALT DUTY (INDIA.)
  MR. A. F. WARR: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether in the Presidencies of Madras and Bombay salt used for curing purposes is supplied from the Government salt works at cost price and free of duty, whereas in the Presidency of Bengal the full duty of two rupees eight annas per maund (equivalent to nearly £5 per ton) is imposed; and if so, whether he wilt undertake to consider the removal of this inequality between the Presidencies, with a view to the encouragement of fish-curing in the Presidency of Bengal and consequent increase of food supplied?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON, Middlesex, Ealing): Salt is supplied to persons working at fish-curing yards in Bombay and Madras at a price of 8 to 10 annas per maund duty free. Similar fish-curing yards have not been opened on the Bengal coast; but, if there were likely to be a demand for such facilities, the Government would gladly encourage a fish-curing industry by granting the

  725
  same privileges as in Madras and Bombay. The salt preventive staff is now being strengthened on the Bengal coast, and the management of fish-curing yards there will become easier.

  EDUCATION SCHEMES.
  MR. HUMPHREYS-OWEN: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education (1) whether he can state the number of schemes which, since the passing of the Endowed Schools Act, 1869, have been approved by the Education Department and by Her Majesty in Council: and, (2) how many of such schemes have given an undenominational character to endowments which the Court of Chancery had treated as denominational?
  SIR J. GORST: One thousand one hundred and fifty-five schemes have been approved by the Education Department since 1869 and 1127 have been approved by Her Majesty in Council. The Charity Commissioners inform me that it would involve many months of labour to obtain even approximately the return asked for in the second paragraph; and that, owing to the uncertainty attaching to the words "denominational" and "undenominational" the return could not be of a satisfactory character.

  IRISH LAND ACTS (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  MR. JAMES DALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a meeting, composed almost exclusively of Unionists, was held on Friday last in the Central Hall, Belfast, and that resolutions were passed censuring the Government for appointing a Royal Commission to inquire into the working of the Irish Land Acts; whether he is aware that the appointment of Dr. Trail to serve on the intended Royal Commission was strongly condemned, as well as the fact that Mr. Morrough O'Brien is not allowed to try Ulster land cases; and whether he can state what course he intends to take to give effect to the desires of this Unionist meeting?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I have received copies of resolutions passed at the meeting in question. It is not the intention of the Government to take any steps such as suggested.

  BELMULLET BOARD OF GUARDIANS.
  MR. D. CRILLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether he is aware that the chairman and three other members of the Belmullet Board of Guardians have already resigned, and that a special meeting of the Board has been called to accept the resignation of the remaining members; and (2) whether the Local Government Board of Ireland are taking any steps to discharge the duties of the Belmullet Board of Guardians?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am aware of the facts stated in the first paragraph. A sealed order was issued by the Local Government Board yesterday dissolving the Behmullet Board of Guardians, and the management of the Union will at once be placed in the hands of paid Vice Guardians.

  CRETE.
  MR. R. WALLACE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if, under the scheme of autonomy for Crete, resolved on by the Concert of Europe, the European Governor will be elected by the Cretan people or their representatives, or appointed exclusively by the Concert?
  MR. CURZON: No final decision has been arrived at on this point.
  MR. R. WALLACE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it accords with his information that, on a recent date at Canea, under orders of the Admirals now protecting Crete, by leave of the Sultan, 20 Mahomedans were embarked in chains on board European ships; whether those persons have been tried and sentenced for any and for what offence; and what further steps the Admirals are about to take with reference to these prisoners?
  MR. J. DILLON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, on the 19th July, 20 Mahomedans, who had been implicated in the destruction of property in Canea, were embarked in chains on board the European ships?
  MR. CURZON: A telegram just received from Admiral Harris reports that at the request of the Italian Captain, Commandant General at Canea, the

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  Admirals had decided to embark on the ships of the International Squadrons a certain number of Turkish prisoners, as their supervision by the Turkish authorities was inadequate. They were to be conveyed to Benghazi by first opportunity on board a foreign man-of-war. The Admiral states that this measure has produced a good effect. The above is all the information we have received on the subject.
  MR. R. WALLACE: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether they have been merely arrested, or whether they have been tried?
  MR. CURZON: I have given to the House the words of the telegram—all the information I have received; but I draw from the use of the words "prisoners" the inference that they have been imprisoned, and from that we may assume that they have been tried and sentenced. [Laughter.]
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Mahomedans of Retimo made a raid on the night of the 16th July on a Christian village at two hours' distance from Retimo, killing eight and wounding two, and carrying off 300 head of cattle; and whether any attempt has been made, or will be made, to bring to justice the organisers of the raid?
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Before that question is answered may I ask whether the Representatives of the Powers in Crete have been enabled as yet to take any effectual steps to restore to the beleaguered Mahomedans the land and cattle of which they have been robbed by the Christians?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! I must call attention to the growing practice, when a Question is asked with regard to the conduct of the Mahomedans in Crete at one particular place, to meet it by asking a counter-question with regard to the conduct of the Christians in another place. The one does not arise out of the other. [Cheers.]
  SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I am referring specifically to the Cretan Mussulmans who are beleaguered at Retimo, and generally, of course, to the others.
  MR. CURZON: I do not think I have anything to say in reply to the Question of the hon. Gentleman. [Laughter.] In regard to the Question on the Paper, the
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  British Vice Consul at Retimo has reported that Christians had been raided by Mussulmans on the 16th at Onithe, with the result that eight Christians were killed and two Mussulmans wounded, 300 head of cattle carried off, and two Mussulmans wounded. We have not heard that complaints have been made with regard to the conduct of the Turkish Governor. The Russian Commandant commands the European troops at Retimo, and on receiving news of the outbreak the Russian Admiral proceeded there with the Vali. We do not know what further steps have been taken.

  JUDICATURE RULES.
  MR. WARR: I beg to ask the Attorney General whether new Judicature Rules will come into operation in October next; and, if so, whether they can be issued before the vacation, so that practitioners may become acquainted with them before the Michaelmas Sittings?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER, Isle of Wight): I am informed that any new rules which are intended to come into operation next October will be issued before the Long Vacation. The rules as to the summons for directions (Order XXX.) and delivery of pleadings in the Long Vacation (Order LXIV.) have already been made public by The Gazette.

  ROMAN CATHOLIC PROCESSION.
  COLONEL T. M. SANDYS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether he is aware that recently, on a Sunday afternoon, a Roman Catholic procession walked through the streets from the Roman Catholic church to the convent in Queen's Road at Peckham; that images with flags were carried through the streets followed by a cross-bearer, acolytes, etc., singing a hymn to the Virgin Mary, and followed by a number of Roman Catholics, many of whom were dressed specially for the occasion; and that this is by no means the first of these processions which have taken place in the outskirts of London; whether the law permits a Roman Catholic religious procession to walk outside the walls of any Roman Catholic building in this country; and, whether,

  729
  if it is against the law, any proceedings will be taken?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.): The Question of my hon. Friend relates to a matter of law of which I am really not competent to give information — [laughter]—but if he will be good enough to put it down on some subsequent day my learned Friend the Attorney General will give him an answer. [Laughter.]

  WRECK (INDIAN TROOPSHIP) "WARREN HASTINGS."
  MR. J. L. WANKLYNasked the Under Secretary of State for War a Question of which he had given private notice—whether, in view of the facts which had recently come to light as to the losses sustained by the officers and men in the wreck of the Warren Hastings, the right hon. Gentleman was in a position now to give further compensation to the officers and men.
  *MR. BRODRICK: The Secretary of State has now received fuller reports as to the losses on the Warren Hastings, and, in view of the fact that nearly all the officers have had to completely re-equip themselves and that the men are alleged to have been put to some expense before their losses could be made good, it has been decided to issue to every officer the full amount laid down by the regulations for compensation (on the assumption that he will have to replace the whole of his equipment) as well as £30 in respect of clothing for which no allowance is made by regulations. The men have already received new clothing and a new kit, and 10s. in money, which, in view of the circumstances named above, will be increased by £1 for each non-commissioned officer and private soldier. The exact extent of the losses by the band, mess, and institute require further investigation, and Lord Lansdowne will consider whether any further grant is necessary in these cases. I may mention that the compensation already authorised amounts in all, including the cost of re-clothing the men, to £12,134, and the additional amount which will now become payable amounts to £2,348.

  ENGINEERING STRIKE.
  CAPTAIN NORTON, who had given private notice of the Question, asked the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it had been brought to his notice that the firms of Messrs. Thornycroft, Penns, and Earles had approached the Government with reference to the finding of artificers or engineers for trial trips at Chatham and Devonport; and whether he would consider the advisability of declining to meet their wishes, on the ground that the Government would not be justified in practically ranging themselves on the side of the employers—[cries of "Order"]—at a time when a conflict of the first importance was taking place between employers and employed in the engineering trade. [Cries of "Order."]
  *MR. SPEAKER: That is a Question of which Notice ought to be given.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury in what order Army and Navy Votes will be taken To-morrow?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: On Friday the first Vote will be the War Office Vote, and the remaining Army Votes will be taken in regular order, beginning with Vote 8, on which the Financial Secretary to the War Office will make his statement in regard to wages.
  MR. E. ROBERTSONasked when the Navy Votes would be taken?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The Shipbuilding Vote and the remainder of the Navy Votes will probably be taken on Tuesday next.
  MR. G. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he can state when the Supplementary Education Estimate will be taken?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I propose next week to take both Tuesday and Friday for Supply, but I cannot state for certain whether the Supplementary Education Vote will be taken on Tuesday or Friday. I think it will be more convenient to take it to-morrow week.
  SIR E. ASHMEAD - BARTLETTasked when the Colonial Vote would be taken?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I cannot say for certain. There will be three more days after to-morrow for Supply; and on Tuesday, August 2nd, the Report of Supply will be taken. I will endeavour to allocate the days I have at my disposal in the most convenient manner, but I cannot say whether there will be a day for the Colonial Vote.
  MR. T M. HEALYasked whether one of the three additional days for Supply would be given to Irish Supply?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: No additional day can be given to Ireland. I would remind hon. Gentlemen from Ireland that there have been four days devoted exclusively for Irish Supply.
  MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, in view of the latest news from Constantinople and Crete, he will take the Report of the Foreign Office Vote at a reasonable hour to-night?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: So far as we know there is nothing in the latest news from Constantinople or Crete which would supply fresh material for Debate; but I hope if we make good progress with the Public Health (Scotland) Bill, we will be able to bring on the Report stage of the Vote at an hour at which hon. Members can give expression to their views.

  SUPPLY.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYmoved "That three additional days be allotted to the business of Supply."
  Motion agreed to.

  MOTIONS.

    MILITARY MANŒVURES BILL.
    MR. SWIFT MACNEILLsaid he desired to draw Mr. Speaker's attention to what he thought was an omission from the record of the proceedings in the House yesterday which was sent to Members to-day. It would be in the recollection of the House that after
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    the Second Reading of the Military Manœuvres Bill, the Bill was referred to the Grand Committee on Law. The Committee of Selection were enabled to add, if they so chose, some 15 Members to the ordinary Grand Committee on Law, and the Select Committee met yesterday and did add certain Members. He had always understood that it was in accordance with the Rules of the House that the names of the Members so added should appear on the records of the House, but in the present instance that had not been done.
    *MR. SPEAKER: I understand that there was no time for the names to have appeared on the Votes and Proceedings to-day, but they will appear to-morrow.

    SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (IRELAND) BILL.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR, in asking leave to introduce a Bill
    "to amend the Judicature (Ireland) Acts, 1877 to 1888, and to provide for the union and consolidation of the Court of Bankruptcy in Ireland with the Supreme Court, and for other purposes connected therewith,"
    said: There are now four divisions of the Supreme Court in Ireland—the Chancery, Queen's Bench, Exchequer and Probate, and Matrimonial Divisions. Besides these there is the Court of Bankruptcy, which is out of touch with all these Courts. The Bill proposes the immediate fusion of the Court of Exchequer with the Queen's Bench Division, the Chief Baron having given his assent to that change taking place at once. The Bill further provides that the Court of Bankruptcy shall be united with the Queen's Bench Division. Also, on the death or resignation of the present Judge of the Probate Court, it is proposed to merge that Court in the Queen's Bench Division. When these changes are accomplished there will be only two Divisions—the Queen's Bench and the Chancery Courts. There are at present 20 Irish Judges. In future there will be 17. The Judgeships abolished are that of the Probate Court and the two of the Bankruptcy Court; the changes in the Bankruptcy Court will take place at once, and the other reductions will take place when a vacancy is caused by death or resignation in the Probate Court. Pending that event, the

    733
    vacancy caused by the death of Mr. Justice Harrison will not be filled up, so that the practical effect will be that the salaries of three Judges will be immediately saved. There is nothing new in any of these proposals. The vacancy caused by the death of Mr. Justice Harrison has continued unfilled for 18 mouths, and it has been the express intention of more than one Government not to appoint a successor to Mr. Justice Warren; and, further, when the opportunity offered, to amalgamate the Court of Bankruptcy with the Court of Queen's Bench. That opportunity has now occurred. The recent death of Mr. Justice Miller and the appointment of Mr. Justice Holmes as a Lord Justice of Appeal has made it possible to appoint the remaining Judge in Bankruptcy to the place of Mr. Justice Holmes. As to the disposal of the money which will be saved by the abolition of these Judgeships, it amounts to £7,500, and we propose by the Bill to carry the sum to a separate credit, to be applied for Irish purposes, as Parliament may from time to time determine. But if there is anything like a unanimous wish amongst the Irish Members that the money should be immediately applied to some specific purpose, I shall be prepared to consider such an expression of opinion.
    MR. JOHN MORLEYsaid that he could not understand how the right hon. Gentleman's statements agreed. There were to be only three Judgeships abolished, but the right hon. Gentleman had spoken of four vacancies—two in the Bankruptcy Court, one in the Probate Court, and one in the Common Law Division.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No Common Law Judgeship is to be abolished. But the vacancy is not to be filled up until the death or resignation of the present Judge in Probate.
    MR. JOHN DILLONsaid at that stage it would not be convenient to discuss the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman, but he thought it would he admitted in all parts of the House that no fault could be found with the Bill from the point of view of not being sufficiently moderate. He had always been led to believe, and he thought it was a universally accepted position in Ireland, that the greatest abuse in connection with the Judicial Bench of that country was
    734
    the excessive salaries of the Judges, and the first thing that struck him in the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman was that, while he proposed to abolish three Judges, they were all Judges at a lower rate of salary than the ordinary puisne Judges.
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Two of them.
    MR. DILLONsaid it was proposed to abolish two Judges at a lower rate of salary, but there was no indication of any policy on the part of the Government having for its object any reduction of the bloated and enormous salaries of the Irish Judicial Bench. [Nationalist cheers.] Not only was that the case, but he gathered from the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that it was part of the proposals of the Government to raise Mr. Justice Boyd to a position in which he would enjoy something like £1,500 a year in his salary. If that were the proposal of the Government it would be received with the very greatest possible condemnation in Ireland, as Mr. Justice Boyd was certainly a Judge who had given anything but satisfaction, and his promotion would be looked upon as a reward for the part he took during the recent trouble 1 times as an emergency Judge. [Nationalist cheers.] He did not intend discussing the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman then, but in his judgment they would be received with disappointment in Ireland, and the feeling would be pretty general that the Bill bore on it the mark of those consultations which they were told went on with the Bar of Ireland. [Nationalist cheers.]
    Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Gerald Balfour, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the Attorney General for Ireland; presented accordingly, and read the First time; to be read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed.—[Bill 326.]

    POST OFFICE TELEGRAPHS (FACILITIES AND PENSIONS).
    Bill to make provision with respect to the delivery of telegrams, guarantees by Parish Councils in Scotland, and the pensions of certain persons employed in the Telegraph Service, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Hanbury and Mr. Fishier; presented, and Read the First time; to be Read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed.—[Bill 325.]
    PUBLIC WORKS LOANS.
    Bill to grant moneys for the purpose of certain Local Loans, and to amend the law respecting the Local Loans Fund and Loans made thereout; and for other purposes relating to Local Loans, ordered to be brought in by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. Hanbury; presented, and Read the First time; to be Read a Second time upon Monday next, and to be printed.—[Bill 327.]
  ORDERS OF THE DAY.

    CONGESTED DISTRICTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    As amended, considered.
    Clause 1,—

    APPOINTMENT OF CONGESTED DISTRICTS (SCOTLAND) COMMISSIONERS.
    For the purpose of administering the sums available for the improvement of congested districts in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland, the following persons shall be Commissioners (called the Congested Districts (Scotland) Commissioners), that is to say:—The Secretary for Scotland, the Under Secretary for Scotland, the Chairman of the Local Government Board for Scotland, the Chairman of the Fishery Board for Scotland, the Chairman of the Crofters' Commission, and such other persons, not exceeding three, as the Secretary for Scotland may from time to time nominate. The Secretary for Scotland may from time to time make, alter, and vary such rules as he shall deem necessary for regulating the proceedings of the Commissioners, and the times and places of their meetings.
    MR. J. CALDWELLmoved to add at the end of the Clause:—
    "Three Members of the Commissioners shall form a quorum, and any act of the Commissioners may be signified under the hands of any three of their number."
    He said that there was no provision in the Bill for a quorum of the Board of Commissioners.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire)said that the Amendment was not necessary. The Secretary for Scotland had power to make rules for regulating the proceedings of the Commissioners.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Clause 2,—
    SECRETARY AND OFFICERS TO BE APPOINTED FROM EXISTING OFFICERS OF GOVERNMENT DEPARTMENTS.

    (1.) The Secretary for Scotland may appoint as Secretary to the Commissioners one of the senior officers in the Department of the Secretary for Scotland, or in any Government Department in Scotland, and with the consent of the Treasury, may assign to him an additional salary. The Secretary for Scotland may also, with the consent of the Treasury, direct any of the officers in any Government Department in Scotland to discharge in relation to the Commissioners such duties, not inconsistent with those of their permanent offices, as he may think proper.

    (2.) The salaries or remuneration of the officers (if any) employed by the Commissioners, and the administrative expenses of the Commissioners, shall be fixed by the Treasury and paid out of the sums by this Act to be annually voted by Parliament.

    MR. CALDWELLmoved, in Sub-section (1), to leave out the words "as" ["Secretary for Scotland may appoint as"] and to insert "a." As the Bill stood the Secretary for Scotland might appoint as secretary to the Commission one of the senior officers in any of the Government Departments in Scotland. Apart from the general objection to, creating plural offices, he thought the Secretary to this Commission ought to be a gentleman who should give his entire time to the work. Supposing the Amendment were accepted, the Secretary for Scotland could still appoint any one he pleased as secretary to the Commission, but it was objectionable, and never occurred before, that in statutes power was conferred on a Minister to constitute one of the officers in his Department secretary to any Commission.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid there was some discussion about this in Committee, and he promised to consider it, and the conclusion the Government had come to was that the phraseology in the Bill was best. In an experimental Act of this sort he honestly thought it would be the greatest protection to the Secretary for Scotland to be obliged to take an officer of one of the Government Departments. Otherwise, if he appointed an outsider the cry would be raised that the secretaryship had been given to "a landlord's man," or "a crofter's man," as the case might be. Apart from that, he doubted whether the appointment was one which would fully occupy the time

    737
    and attention of one man, unless he were made to do a great deal of clerical work; and, further, the Treasury might be trusted not to give the gentleman who might be nominated too much salary, and make a pluralist of him.
    DR. CLARKdid not see the necessity for tying the Secretary for Scotland's hands by a clause in the Bill.
    MR. HEDDERWICKsaid it seemed an extraordinary thing, if they could not trust their own Secretary for Scotland to nominate a secretary to this Commission, while at the same time they were giving him otherwise very wide powers under the Bill.
    Amendment negatived.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved to leave out the word "senior," in order to give the Secretary for Scotland a wider choice.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause 3,—
    CONSTITUTION OF CONGESTED DISTRICTS (SCOTLAND) FUND; SUMS TO BE CARRIED THERETO.
    For the purposes of this Act a fund (to be called the Congested Districts (Scotland) Fund) shall be constituted, to which shall, front time to time, be carried—

    (1) the sum of fifteen thousand pounds annually, available for the improvement of congested districts in the Highlands and islands of Scotland under and during the continuance of the Agricultural Rates, Congested Districts, and Burgh Land Tax Relief (Scotland) Act 1896; and

    (2) any sums not exceeding twenty thousand pounds annually voted by Parliament for the said purpose and during the said continuance; and

    (3) any moneys received for payment of interest or repayment of principal of any loan made by the Commissioners under the provisions of this Act; and

    (4) any other sums applicable to the purposes of this Act.

    MR. CALDWELLmoved in Sub-section (2) to leave out the words "and during the said continuance." The effect of the words in question was to limit the payment of the £20,000 into the fund to the five years during which the Agricultural
    738
    Rates Congested Districts Bill would be in operation. When the £20,000 was allocated to the congested districts of Scotland, he understood and the House understood that the £20,000 was a perpetual sum in the usual way that all grants were understood to be perpetual. Then, when the Resolution was passed, it contained no limit of time, and he did not think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained that the £20,000 was to be only for live years, and he only wanted to bring the Bill into harmony with the understanding and the terms of the Resolution. The grant was now limited to five years. He did not think that the Chancellor of the Exchequer meant this, but rather that it was to be a perpetual sum in the ordinary way. The object of his Amendment was to make the Bill agree with the Resolution.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS BEACH, Bristol, W.)thought that the hon. Member was guilty of what was considered not to be a wise process—namely, of looking a gift horse in the mouth. The Government never understood that the grant should be made for more than five years, because the original grant of £15,000 a year, on which the Bill was based, was made for five years by the Act of last Session. It did not at all follow that this £20,000 would not be continued at the end of five years; it might be increased or diminished; much would depend on the circumstances of the time. But he did not think it would be reasonable, having regard to the temporary nature of the original grant, that this should be made permanent. It would be far better that the whole matter should be reconsidered by Parliament at that time, especially as the result of this exceptional expenditure might so improve the condition of the people as to put them on the same footing as the rest of the people elsewhere, thereby rendering a grant unnecessary.
    DR. CLARKthought that the experiment of five years would give a far chance of seeing whether it was successful. At the end of that time Parliament would be able to reconsider the subject.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Clause 4,—

    APPLICATION OF MONEYS AT THE DISPOSAL OF THE COMMISSIONERS.
    (1.) In applying the Congested Districts (Scotland) Fund the Commissioners may take such steps as they think proper for—

    (a) aiding and developing agriculture, dairy farming, and the breeding of live stock and poultry in congested districts; and

    (b) providing suitable seed potatoes and seed potatoes and implements and dairy utensils and machinery or appliances for the making of butter or cheese for crofters and cottars in congested districts; and

    (c) providing, subject to the provisions hereinafter contained, land for sub-division among or for enlargement of the holdings of crofters and cottars in congested districts for the purposes of cultivation or grazing, in such manner and upon such conditions and after such adaptations as shall be determined by the Commissioners; and

    (d) aiding migration of crofters and cottars from congested districts to other districts in Scotland, and settling any migrants under favourable circumstances in the places to which they first migrate; and

    (e) aiding and developing fishing (including industries connected with and subservient to fishing) and the erection and formation of fishermen's dwellings and holdings in congested districts; and

    (f) aiding the providing or improving of piers or boat-slips, public roads and bridges and footpaths and foot-bridges in congested districts; and

    (g) aiding and developing spinning, weaving, and other home industries in congested districts; and

    (h) subject to the consent of the Treasury. aiding the providing or improving of harbours.

    (2.) The Commissioners may give their assistance either by way of gift or loan, or by way of sale at cost price, and subject to such conditions as they think fit, which conditions and the provisions for their enforcement or for the case of their violation shall be as effectual as if they were contained in this Act, and the consent of the Secretary for Scotland shall be necessary before any grant of money is given by way of gift under the provisions of this Act.

    (3.) Any person nominated by the Commissioners may, at all reasonable times, and after due notice to the occupier, enter any land occupied by an occupier to whom seed or implements, utensils, machinery, or appliance have been sold or gifted, in order to ascertain whether such seed has been properly sown, m that a proper use is being made of such implements, utensils, machinery, or appliances.

    SIR CHARLES CAMERONmoved in Sub-section (l), paragraph (c), after "grazing," to insert
    740
    "or for sites for court houses, or residences for Sheriff's substitutes or Procurators Fiscal." He made this proposal chiefly on the ground of the public scandal which had surrounded this subject in the Highlands for many years. There were certain landlords in the Highlands who held very strong views of the rights of property, and in order to bring those views into consonance with more tolerant and enlightened views elsewhere prevailing, the. Crofters' Act had been passed, in order to remedy what was felt to be a scandal. In one district of the Highlands there was a landlord who, by his high-handed ideas of the rights of property, had endeavoured to interfere with the execution of justice. The result of his action had been to compel the Sheriff, unable to get a residence in the locality, to go into inferior lodgings where the water supply was found to be bad. Indeed, some weeks ago he left the island declaring that he would not stay in the locality to be poisoned. The honorary Deputy Sheriff was also away from his post, and the result was that no Sheriff Court was being held in the island, the proceedings to compel an amelioration of the water supply by the landlord being consequently stayed. The powers asked for in his Amendment had been asked for by all the public bodies in the district.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEhoped that the hon. Member would not think he failed to sympathise with the undesirableness of public officers being obliged to live away from their districts through the difficulty of obtaining residences. The House would see, however, that the provision of residences was scarcely one of the purposes connected with congested districts. He believed that so far as the Sheriff-substitute was concerned, the matter had been got over, and that a house had been built for him. He hoped that it would be soon ready for his occupation. They could not, however, go so far out of their way as to change the character of the Bill by adopting the Amendment.
    DR. CLARKcould not agree that Lochmaddy was a congested district, there being scarcely more than 20 houses in the place. This scandal in connection with residences had been going on for several years, and attention had been

    741
    drawn to it in Committee of Supply. The Sheriff and Procurator Fiscal, who were by Statute compelled to live in their jurisdiction, had been turned out of their houses by the landlord, and had been compelled to live in inferior houses and under bad sanitary conditions. He hoped the Scotch Office would prevent the scandal of which he had spoken: and see that these public officers, who were compelled to live in the district, should when turned out have some place where they could keep the law in decent condition.
    *MR. HEDDERWICKhoped the hon. Baronet would not persist with his Amendment. This was not a fund for the relief of embarrassed sheriffs, but for the relict of congested crofters. He was not personally aware that there was in this part of Scotland and rabid desire for Sheriffs or Sheriff-substitutes, though there was a. demand for land. He had no doubt the observations of the hon. Baronet might be of value as a protest against the manner in which a particular sheriff had been treated, and would form good ground for an attack on the Government on another occasion; but he thought the Amendment might very well be withdrawn.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved, in Sub-section (1), paragraph (b), after "of," to insert "lighthouses."
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR WEIRmoved, in the same paragraph, after "footbridges," to insert "meal mills."
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. WEIRmoved, at the end of the same paragraph, to insert—
    "providing guarantees for telegraph extensions or such other postal facilities (including money order and savings bank business) as may be within the power of the Postmaster General to grant under guarantee; and."
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE: I accept that Amendment.
    DR. CLARKthought they ought to be able to get money for such a purpose outside this fund. He was rather opposed
    742
    to its being applied to any other object. His hon. Friend represented in this case the fishermen, who were perhaps suffering from congestion more than anybody else; and what he proposed might, no doubt, be useful in a far-away district, hut the money ought to come from some other fund, not from this particular fund. However, as the Government were willing that it should be left to the discretion of the Commissioners, he hoped the Commissioners would not spend much money in this direction.
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSONagreed that there was often a want of these telegraphic and postal facilities in the Highlands, but he very much doubted whether provision ought to be made for supplying the want in the way now proposed. The burden ought to rest upon the Post Office, at any rate the cost ought not to come out of this specific fund. He might remind his hon. Friend that provision had been made in other ways; for instance, under the recommendations of the Lighthouse Commission, of which he had been a member for some years, there had been a considerable extension of the telegraphic system, especially in the Highlands of Scotland, around the coast. In his opinion they ought not to use this limited fund for doing work that ought to be done by the Post Office, and work in which the Post Office of this country was singularly behind-hand compared with other countries. He was, therefore, entirely in favour of putting pressure upon the Post Office, but he was not in favour of this proposal.
    MR. HEDDERWICKsaid he did not know whether the hon. Member for Ross was in the House at the time, but he thought the Government had that day introduced a Bill for giving telegraphic facilities in the north of Scotland. If that was so then this Amendment might well lie withdrawn until they had ascertained what these facilities were.
    MR. CALDWELLsaid he was quite of the same opinion. It was very unfortunate, he thought, that this Congested Districts Bill should have introduced into it a provision enabling the Commissioners to give guarantees to the Post Office. The result would be that when complaint was made to the Post. Office that telegraphic facilities were wanted, they would say, "We can do. nothing for you; go to the Congested Districts Board." Then the

    743
    Congested Districts Board would say, "Oh, it's a matter for the Post Office; go to the Post Office." Instead of facilitating matters, if two parties were authorised to do a thing the result generally was that neither would do it. If the Congested Districts Board was to guarantee the Post Office they would simply have one set of Imperial funds guaranteeing another. He thought that as this was an experiment, and it was only to last five years, the First Lord would probably see that it was not desirable to introduce such a matter into the Bill. There was no such power in the Irish Act, and he thought it would do harm rather than good. He hoped the Government would not accept the Amendment.
    *MR. WEIRappealed to his hon. Friends not to oppose this provision.
    *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member has already spoken. Does he withdraw?
    *MR. WEIR: Oh, no.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid that as the hon. Gentleman had expressed his intention not to withdraw the Amendment in response to hon. Gentlemen sitting above the Gangway on that side of the House, the Government must, of course, adhere to the pledge given by his right hon. Friend that he would accept the Amendment. ["Hear, hear!"] Of course that was obvious. But he might say that they certainly did not intend that these funds should be used to illegitimately relieve the Post Office of any charge that ought to fall upon it—["hear, hear!"]—and they should, of course, keep that policy strictly in view.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause 5, —

    ACQUISITION, ADAPTATION, AND DISPOSAL OF LAND.
    (1.) For the purpose of the purchase of land by the Commissioners (who are hereby authorised to purchase and hold land and dispose thereof as in this Act provided) the Lands Clauses Acts shall be incorporated with this Act, except the provisions of those Acts with respect to the purchase and taking of land otherwise than by agreement; and the provisions of Sub-section four of Section three of the Allotments (Scotland) Act 1892, with respect to the settlement of disputed compensation for land, shall apply, with the necessary modifications, as if the Commissioners were therein referred to.

    744

    (2.) Any limited owner may sell land to the Commissioners for the purposes of this Act at such a price, or for such consideration as, having regard to those purposes and to all the circumstances of the case, is deemed reasonable.

    (3.) The Commissioners may, if they think fit, before disposing of land for the purposes of this Act, adapt the same by dividing and fencing it, making occupation roads, and executing any other works, such as works for the provision of drainage or water supply, which can, in the opinion of the Commissioners, be more economically and efficiently executed for the land as a whole.

    (4.) The Commissioners may also, if they think fit, adapt the land for the purposes of this Act by erecting thereon such buildings, or making such adaptations of existing buildings as, in their opinion, are required for the due occupation of the land, and cannot be made by the crofters or cottars or fishermen.

    (5.) Where any right of grazing or other similar right is attached to land acquired by the Commissioners for the purposes of this Act, the Commissioners may attach any share of the right to any holding in such manner and subject to such regulations as they think proper.

    (6.) The Commissioners may accept any gifts of property, heritable or moveable, for any or all of the purposes for which money is provided by this Act, and apply them according to the directions of the donor, if consistent in their opinion with the purposes on which they apply the said money, and, subject to any such directions, may apply them in like manner as that money.

    *MR. WEIRmoved to leave out Subsection (1), and to insert;—
    "(1.) For the purposes of the acquisition of land by the Commissioners (in the event of their being unable to obtain it by agreement on reasonable terms) they are hereby authorised to cause public inquiry to be made in the congested district, and direct notices to be given to the owners, occupiers, or lessees of the land proposed to be taken, and all persons interested shall be at liberty to attend the inquiry, and to support or oppose the taking of such land, and, if after the inquiry the evidence is such as to show no reasonable cause against the acquisition of the land by the Commissioners, then they shall take the necessary steps for acquiring the land on such terms and conditions as they may determine."
    He said he moved the Amendment for the purpose of giving the Board greater facilities to acquire land. The Bill provided that should any difficulty arise in obtaining land, the Commissioners might adopt the Lands Clauses Act, and the Allotments (Scotland) Act, 1892, but these were cumbrous and costly processes. He challenged the Lord Advocate to find land for the purposes of the Bill by these processes in the most congested part of the Highlands—the island of Lewis. The

    745
    island was in the possession of one individual, who would not part with an inch. If the Commissioners did get land under these Acts, they would be driven to give the landlord his own price. In Ireland the Congested Districts Board reported in the Fourth Annual Report, page 10, that
    "they are of opinion it will be impossible for them to give due effect to this important department of their work "—
    that was, migration and enlargement of holdings—unless compulsory powers be given them to acquire such lands at fair value. That was after the experience of four years; and he thought it justified hint in asking the Government to accept his proposal. It was not the policy of the landlords in the Highlands to provide sites for the people. Their policy had been for a good many years to clear out the population in order to make deer forests. That was the policy of the Highland landlord, and that had been for a considerable time past. There was plenty of land to be had if compulsory powers were given; but he wanted the Commissioners to get it at a fair and reasonable price, and not at the landlord's fancy price, and if they were tied down by a costly legal process there would be no chance of making the Bill a success.
    MR. CALDWELL, who said that he had himself put an Amendment down practically raising the same question, maintained that unless compulsory powers were given to the Congested Districts Commissioners, they would be hampered in their operations by the refusal of landowners to sell land at a reasonable price. Available land might not always be suitable for migrating crofters. Unless compulsory powers were granted one man might obstruct a scheme of which all the other landlords in a district approved. If a landlord refused to provide land which was required in connection with the construction of a harbour, the Commissioners would be compelled to come to Parliament for a public or private Bill. The case necessarily in fact would be at the mercy of any landlord whose property was affected in any way by an improvement scheme. The precedent of the Parish Councils Act, which contained a provision for the compulsory acquisition of land without reference to Parliament, ought to be followed
    746
    in this case. The Light Railways Act supplied another precedent of the same kind. The Congested District Board was to consist of the Secretary for Scotland, the Under Secretary, the Chairman of the Fishery Board, the Chairman of the Crofter Commission, the Chairman of the Local Government Board, and the other persons nominated by the Secretary for Scotland. It would be practically a Government Department, which would not be likely to act unjustly or arbitrarily. Under the Amendments which he had put upon the Paper, there would be an appeal to the authorities of the Local Government Board, who might order an inquiry which should be final.
    *MR. SPEAKER: Do I understand that the hon. Member will stand or fall by this Amendment?
    MR. CALDWELLreplied that he would. Under his Amendment there would be ample protection against any possible abuse on the part of the Congested Districts Commissioners. They would be supervised by a Government Department which was responsible to Parliament. The clause as it stood was reactionary, because it gave no special facilities for acquiring land for the benefit of the community, and this was contrary to the policy of modern Acts of Parliament. Without compulsory powers they could not hope to do anything. An heir of entail—to give one example out of many—a limited owner would be unable to provide land for the purposes of this Bill, being himself unable to enter into the necessary contract.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEreminded the Mover of the Amendment that this question had been fully discussed in Committee, and that he then said that he could not accept the proposal. He could not go back upon that declaration. The Bill, as he had pointed out, was an experimental one, and the question was whether it would be right to go the great length of granting compulsory powers before it had been shown that the Bill could not be worked satisfactorily without them. In connection with the construction of railways, drains, and waterworks it was necessary that there should be compulsory powers, because the opposition of one person, if there were no such powers, might defeat an elaborate and highly desirable improvement scheme. There was not the same reason, however,

    747
    for giving compulsory powers in connection with the very wide operations undertaken under this Bill. It never, for example, could be of the essence of proceedings under the Measure that a crofter should be migrated to a particular farm. There was a great deal of land available in the market. The analogy which the hon. Member had tried to establish between this Bill and the Parish Councils Act and the Light Railways Act was not well founded. The only purpose for which land could be compulsorily acquired under the Parish Councils Act was to obtain a site for the erection of parish buildings, and light railways stood, of course, in the same position as other railways, inasmuch as there was often only one route which they could take, so that if one person stood out against the construction of a line, he would be able to defeat a whole scheme but for the power of compulsory purchase. The hon. Member had said that under the Bill as it stood even the limited owner could not give his land; but the clauses of the Lands Clauses Act relating to the land were incorporated in the Bill, and therefore the limited owner could give his land for the purposes of the Bill. The Government could not go back on the decision they came to in Committee.
    SIR HENRY CAMPBELL-BANNERMANgreatly regretted that the Lord Advocate on second thoughts had not seen his way to depart a little from the rigid view he took of this matter, because as far as a very large part of the Bill was concerned, this was the one provision to give it reality. ["Hear, hear!"] Two or three years ago it was his fortune to serve on a Committee on the question of the colonisation of his countrymen from the northwest of Scotland. The one thing borne in upon his mind by the deliberations of that Committee was, that anything that could be done in the way of relieving congested districts by the process of removal, must be done by migration, and not by emigration. ["hear, hear!"] Of course the difficulty was the expense. The Lord Advocate said that for such a process as that there was plenty of land available. He quite agreed, but could it be got at a reasonable price? ["Hear, hear!"] Surely the one thing that was wanted to give some backbone and stiffness and energy to this movement was
    748
    compulsory powers of taking land. That came before everything else. The Lord Advocate had said very truly that this was an experiment, and that an experiment should not be pushed too far; but compulsory powers of taking land had been approved by both Houses of Parliament of late years for a great many purposes, and there was no doubt that provisions such as were included in the Scotch Local Government Act a year or two ago, if applied to this purpose, would be perfectly efficient. ["Hear, hear!"] As he had said, he believed that so far as the most essential part of the Bill was concerned, this was the provision most required. ["Hear, hear!"]
    DR. FARQUHARSONcontended that although an experiment was being tried, such provisions ought to be introduced as would probably make the experiment a success, and Scotch. Members felt very strongly that without some sort of compulsory powers there was very little chance of the Bill being a success. It was true that this proposal had been debated before, but it was their duty to keep pegging away, and he was very glad to think that his two hon. Friends had brought the proposal up again, and he hoped they would give their supporters an opportunity of recording their views in the Division Lobby. If it was true that plenty of land could be got on easy terms, the compulsory powers would not be brought into play at all. It was admitted that the crofters were in an exceptional position, and this clause, or something like it, was absolutely necessary for the proper carrying out of the practical operation of the Bill. He thought they might trust the Commissioners to carry out a provision of this kind with justice to both sides. [Hear, hear!"]
    DR. CLARKsaid he wished to appeal to the First Lord of the Treasury in this matter, because he knew more about it than the Lord Advocate. The right hon. Gentleman had practically been the author of legislation of this kind, both in Ireland and in Scotland. This same experiment had been tried in Ireland, and the Irish Commissioners in their Fourth Annual Report, declared that it was impossible for them to carry out what they considered the most important part of their work unless they had compulsory

    749
    powers. So this was not a new experiment. It had been tried under exactly similar conditions in Ireland, and had been shown to be a failure. 95 per cent. of the Highland landlords would probably assist the Government to carry out their experiment, but the other 5 per cent. would not. ["Hear, hear!"] Sir John Ord would not, and why should the Commissioners not have the power to compel Sir John Ord, who did not act according to his interest, but according to his passion. Lord Napier, too, was a man who refused to listen to argument, and these were some of the men who had control of the land that was required. If this were the end of a Parliament, there might be some ground for refusing these powers; but it was very unlikely that there would be a change of Government for several years, and he prayed the First Lord of the Treasury to consider this question.
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid that the regret he felt at the refusal of the Government to agree to compulsory powers had been increased by the few words that had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who led them to understand that they were not to regard this Bill as of a permanent nature. If it was to he limited to a certain number of years, that was all the more reason why compulsory powers should be given. The most elaborate provisions were being made, covering the widest field of usefulness, but the one essential for carrying them out was being left out of the Bill. To a body of the kind proposed to be set up, there could not be the slightest danger in giving them compulsory powers. Repeated allusion had been made to one landlord in the highlands, but there was more than one case where land was located, and where it was absolutely certain it could not be obtained except by compulsion.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I was appealed to by the hon. Member for Caithness to state to the House what light the lessons from the Irish experience in this class of legislation—which I had some share in initiating—throws upon the problems we are now discussing. There are no powers of compulsion in the Irish Act, but the hon. Member for Caithness has quoted quite accurately a sentence from the last
    750
    Report of the Irish Congested Districts Board, in which that Board state in their judgment they cannot carry out any huge scheme of migration unless compulsory powers are given to them. I do not argue whether that view of the Irish Congested Districts Board is accurate or not. I believe that, so far as the landowners are concerned, there has been no difficulty in finding estates to purchase, and I am informed that at all events it is doubtful whether the prices asked for those estates are in excess of their proper value. Upon that point, however, I have no adequate information at my disposal, and I should not like the house to think that anything I have said is the expression of my settled judgment after full investigation. But even granting to the full the contention of the Irish Congested Districts Board, there is a broad distinction between the case of Ireland and the case of Scotland in this matter. I remember when I was directly responsible for the administration of the Irish Congested Districts Act the difficulty was to find an area suitable for migration. There was no difficulty in finding landlords to sell. The difficulty was, when you had got the land, to get rid of the rights of the tenant—all those small rights and casements which exist in almost every part of Ireland, but which do not exist in those parts a the Highlands of Scotland which may with advantage be used for the purposes of promoting emigration. I, therefore, think that even if compulsory powers were granted to the Irish Board that would not carry with it necessarily that they should be granted to the Scotch Board. But at all events let us begin by giving them, to the Irish Board, which has existed for some years, before we give them to Scotland, where the whole matter is in the experimental stage. I was responsible for the Irish Bill, which included migration; and I am responsible not less directly for the Scotch Bill, which in that respect copies the Irish Bill; but let it be remembered that migration, however desirable, is very difficult to carry out successfully. ["Hear, hear!"] I am quite sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite, like everybody who has gone into the matter from a business point of view, to see how it would work out financially and socially, must come to the conclusion—as I have

    751
    come—that the experiment, though worth trying, is one to which we would be foolish to pin too much hope as regards the congested portions of the Highlands. ["Hear, hear!"] Quite apart from the question of the price of the land, there are great financial difficulties in the way, and the whole matter is so confronted with problems hard, indeed, of solution, that bold would the prophet be who would say with confidence that the migration clauses of this Bill are going necessarily and certainly to open a new order of things in regard to the congested portions of the Highland district. ["Hear, hear!"] I think the experiment should be tried, but it should be tried with the good will of every one concerned. ["Hear, hear!"] After all, if you are going to give, without safeguards, powers to this Commission—however selected it may be—to take any man's land for good on their own valuation you will excite alarm, which may be exaggerated, but which will be real, which will surround the working of this Bill with difficulties, and set against it those whose co-operation is most desirable. ["Hear, hear!"] I, therefore, hope the House will endorse the position which the Government have arrived at after full consideration, which is that it would be overloading the Bill in its present stage, which is wholly experimental, if it were to introduce into it powers which were not given in the case of Ireland; and which, if they are not required in the case of Ireland, are far less required in the case of Scotland, where the land tenure is such that the purchase of large tracts of land is unhampered except by the rights of the landlords. No such condition of things exists in Ireland; and while, therefore, there may be a necessity for compulsion in that country no such necessity exists in the case of Scotland. ["Hear, hear!"]
    MR. ROBERT WALLACEsaid he had listened with great attention and respect to the Lord Advocate's repetition of his argument, but it had failed to convince him. In fact, it had left him less convinced than he was on the first occasion the Lord Advocate spoke on this subject. The Lord Advocate relied very much upon the fact that this was an experiment for a short period of time; and the right hon. Gentleman's argument was that if this experiment,
    752
    without the condition of compulsory powers, failed at the end of five years, they could then see what could be done. But truly some experiments were so obviously fore-doomed to failure without certain conditions, that it was foolish to deprive the experiments of the presence of such conditions. He was perfectly certain that this experiment was in the most important instance fore-doomed to failure. There were landlords in districts of the Highlands front whom they would not get on any terms, during the five years, a single square foot of land by consent. It was, therefore, clear that in those districts, at all events, there would be certain failure. These districts were not trifling in extent; they were districts of a very large area; and they were also peculiarly congested districts in which, if the experiment was of any use at all, it ought to be tried with the most signal success. Besides, the whole tendency of legislation was to endow the administrators of enactments with compulsory powers. The Legislature seemed to think that even if an absolute case had not been made out for compulsory powers, it was better to err—if it was an error—on the safe side, and to give the administrators of enactments compulsory powers. If the compulsory powers were not needed they would not, of course, be exercised; but if it should turn out that circumstances made the exercise of compulsory powers necessary, they were there ready for application. He contended that the Lord Advocate had the presumption against him arising from the very nature of the case and from the very character of the present proposed legislation. This legislation was to relieve congested districts by migration, but unless those who managed the matter had a free hand, they could not administer the Act successfully. The administrators of the Act could not have a free hand if the possessor of a certain tract of country, or of a certain portion of a tract of country, had it in his power to say "You sha'n't come near me unless you pay me so much," and the charge he would make would no doubt be exorbitant in the opinion of the outside public and of competent judges. Holding these views he must vote for the Amendment.
    MR. JOHN DILLONsaid he was most unwilling to occupy

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    any of the time set apart for Scotch business, but this was a matter in which his Scotch friends might be helped by Irish experience. ["Hear, hear!"] The First Lord of the Treasury had alluded to the establishment of the Irish Congested Districts Board, which was the only monument of the right hon. Gentleman's administration in Ireland which had been the cause of any popularity at all, and the experience of the Board was most valuable and interesting. The First Lord of the Treasury threw some doubt on the proposition that it was established by the Congested Districts Board as the deliberate result of their experience that compulsory powers were necessary for the due trying of this experiment. He could not imagine for a moment that that opinion could he accepted by any one who had followed the experience of the Congested Districts Board in Ireland. That Board had attempted to carry out this great problem of migration, and after an experience extending over two or three years they had unanimously come to the conclusion which they had solemnly embodied in a report, that it was impossible to give the experiment fair play unless they were provided with compulsory powers. The Irish Congested Districts Board was a Government nominated Board of which the Chief Secretary was chairman, and in the face of a statement of that character it was hardly possible for the First Lord of the Treasury to maintain his position—viz., that the question still remained in doubt whether compulsory powers were required for the due carrying out of the experiment. In Ireland, time after time, they had been refused these compulsory powers, hut that was no reason why justice in this matter should be denied to Scotland.
    MR. T. SHAWsaid they could not successfully encourage the migration of crofters to land without two conditions—in the first place, that they put themselves in the way of acquiring land for themselves, and in the second place that they put them in the way of acquiring that land upon reasonable business terms. Now he ventured to say that the migration of the crofters under this Bill would prove a most futile experiment unless the principle of this Amendment was
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    adopted. He should like to know the views of the Scotch. Unionist Members with regard to this matter. What they wanted was to see the crofters become their own landlords. Unless they got compulsory powers it was absolutely impossible for the Highland problem to be solved.
    MR. J. H. DALZIELsaid no one could have listened to the Debate without a feeling that the Government had had the worst of it. As regarded Ireland, the case stated by the Member for Mayo was invincible. Here there was a Board which declared that it was impossible to carry out the powers given to it. He feared that the Government did not seriously mean to make this Bill a useful Bill. What was the use of this Bill without compulsory powers? It might as well not be passed. Take the case of the Island of Lewis. What was the use of the Bill in that case without compulsory powers? They had the people huddled together like rabbits in warren, and a short way off there were acres of land. There was plenty of room to live, hut the land was refused to them by the landlords. The people, however, were compelled to remain in this state of congestion. It was absurd to talk of disturbing tenants. There were no tenants to disturb. The only people who would be disturbed would be the gamekeepers. He called attention to the fact that although this was a question affecting the crofters, not a single Unionist, Member was there to a single word in favour of them.
    MR. HEDDERWICKregarded the Bill as practically hopeless. If they were not engaged in a solemn farce they must accept something like this Amendment. The one substantial benefit which the proposed to confer was the procuring of land for the people, and by refusing to accept this Amendment the Government were depriving the Bill of its best chance of success.
    *SIR W. WEDDERBURNsaid that the Debate would not be complete unless the House had the advantage of the opinions of the hon. Members opposite representing such important portions of the Highlands and Islands as Inverness-shire and Argyllshire. The hon. Members were gentlemen of great local experience and influence, and he thought the House was entitled to know

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    how they proposed to make the experiment a success, especially when the Opposition speakers had shown, good grounds for believing that under the Government, conditions success was impossible. As to the advantage of securing the goodwill of all concerned, it was the opinion of the Crofters' Commission that compulsory power was one of the most important conditions for an amicable settlement.
    Question put, "That the words of the sub-section to the word 'and,' in line 27, stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: —Ayes, 175; Noes, 107.—(Division List, No. 323.)
    DR. CLARKmoved in Sub-section (1) to leave out "Sub-section 4 of Section 3 of The Allotments (Scotland) Act, 1892," and to insert "Sub-section 10 of Section 25 of The Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1894." The object of the Amendment was to apply the same method and scale of compensation as the Government laid down in the Military Manœuvres Bill, and so to make the legislation of the two Bills exactly on the same lines.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that although he was not responsible for the drafting of the Military Manœuvres Bill, still at the same time he thought the compensation therein proposed might be appropriate in that case, inasmuch as it contemplated compulsory powers. He preferred the enactment in the Bill because it was taken from an Act in which there was no scheme of compulsory powers, and therefore more appropriate to the case.
    MR. CALDWELLsaw no reason why they should pay more for the land that in the ease of the Military Manœuvres Bill.
    Amendment negatived.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved at the end of Sub-section (2) to insert:—
    "a limited owner may, with the sanction of the Local Government Board, given under this Section, convey the land for that purpose either without payment of any purchase money or compensation, or at a price less than the real value, and may so convey it free of all incum-brances. Provided that the Local Government Board shall not give their sanction under this
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    section unless they are satisfied that the purpose for which the land is conveyed is such as is calculated to benefit the remaining land held by the same title or other land of the same landowner, and provided also that, if the land proposed to be conveyed is subject to incumbrances, the Local Government Board before giving their sanction under this section shall cause notice to be given to the incumbrancers, and shall consider the objections, if any, raised by them."
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, after the words last added, to insert:—
    "Any crofter in possession of a holding under the Crofters' Holdings (Scotland) Act 1886, and Acts extending or amending the same, may sell or transfer his right and interest in and to the same to the Commissioners for such consideration as may be mutually agreed upon, and the Commissioners may sell or transfer such right and interest to an occupier of a neighbouring holding held of the same landlord, or may sell or transfer said right and interest to any other person to be occupied as a separate holding, the purchaser or transferee from the Commissioners coming in place of the original crofter, and being subject in all cases to the terms and conditions upon which the land was held at the date of the original sale or transfer, and to such further terms and conditions as the Commissioners may determine. Provided that no existing holding shall be increased by any sale or transfer under this section so that in the opinion of the Commissioners the rateable value will exceed twenty pounds."
    He thought it was obvious it would not be possible to relieve congestion unless there were a power of this kind in the Bill.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEresisted the Amendment because it allowed to the crofter a power to sell his holding without the agreement of the landlord for the purpose of giving it over to the Commissioners, who in turn might sell it to an occupier of a neighbouring holding held of the same landlord, or to any other person, to be occupied as a separate holding. Whatever might be the case in Ireland, the Government thought it would be a great mistake to give the power of sale in Scotland. He could not accept an amendment which for the first time recognised the right of sale in the crofter—a right which would certainly be used as a precedent for trying to extend to him something which it was not advisable he should have.
    DR. CLARKcontended that it was very important to give the Commissioners power to remove crofters in certain cases. Crofters were sometimes, like landlords, selfish and stupid, and they did not want selfish and stupid crofters to prevent the success of a great experiment. In Ireland they had realised the necessity of this. There they found landlords willing to sell and a number of tenants likewise, but because a few avaricious, stupid, selfish creatures refused, or asked preposterous terms, nothing could be done, and so the Congested Districts Board in Ireland had asked for similar compulsory powers. The people who were most affected were not the crofters, but the cottars. The crofters comparatively were well off, because they had land, but the cottars had no land. He thought there were only two ways of dealing with the matter, either to re-enact the first clause of the Crofters' Act, permitting them to assign their tenancy with the assent of the Crofter's Commission, or else to give the Crofter's Commission power to turn them out. He had hoped the Lord Advocate would have brought forward some plan to meet the case.
    MR. WEIRsupported the Amendment. He thought the Commissioners should have the power to give these people compensation, and to get their croft added to another croft, or to give it to another crofter or cottar. He failed to see how the Bill would work satisfactorily unless some arrangement of the kind was adopted.
    DR. CLARKmoved an Amendment providing that the Commissioners might adapt the land by erecting "or assist in erecting" buildings for the crofters, cottars, or fishermen.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause 9,—

    REPORT TO PARLIMENT.
    The Commissioners shall once in every year make a report to the Local Government Board for Scotland on their proceedings under this Act, and every such report shall be forthwith presented to Parliament.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved to leave out the words "Local Government Board," and to insert the word "Secretary."
    Amendment agreed to.
    Bill to be Head the Third time Tomorrow.

    PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    As amended (by the Standing Committee), considered.
    Clause 43,—
    POWER TO INSPECT PREMISES WHERE INFECTIOUS DISEASE SUPPOSED TO EXIST.
    The medical officer may, at reasonable times, enter and inspect any house or premises in the district in which he has reason to believe that any infectious disease exists, and the medical officer may examine any person found on such premises with a view to ascertaining whether such person is suffering from any infectious disease, and in the event of admission being refused, the sheriff, or magistrate, or justice may, on reasonable cause shown, grant warrant authorising such entry, inspection, and examination, and on such warrant being obtained and exhibited. any person refusing to admit the medical officer to such house or premises, or obstructing him in making the inspection or examination aforesaid, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding forty shillings for every such offence.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved to leave out the clause, and to insert the following clause: —

    INSPECTION AND DESTRUCTION OF UNSOUND MEAT, ETC.
    (1.) And medical officer or sanitary inspector or any veterinary surgeon approved for the purposes of this section by the local authority, may, at all reasonable times, enter any premises within the district of the local authority or search any cart or vehicle in order to inspect and examine, and may inspect and examine—

    (a) any animal, alive or dead, intended for the food of man, which is exposed for sale or deposited in any place, or is in course of transmission for the purpose of sale or of preparation for sale: and

    (b) any article, whether solid or liquid, intended for the food of man, and sold or exposed for sale or deposited in any place, or in course of transmission for the purpose of sale or of preparation for sale

    the proof that the same was not exposed or deposited or in course of transmission for any inch purpose, or was not intended for the

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    food of man, resting with the person charged, and if any such animal Or article appears to such medical officer or sanitary inspector or veterinary surgeon to be diseased or unsound or unfit for the food of man, he may seize and carry away the same himself, or by an assistant, in order to have the same dealt with summarily by a sheriff, magistrate, or justice.
    Provided that in the case of any proceeding under this section with regard to a living animal the medical officer or sanitary inspector, unless he is himself a qualified veterinary surgeon, shall be accompanied by a veterinary surgeon approved as aforesaid.
    The police force of each police area shall have power to search carts or vehicles and to assist generally in executing and enforcing this section.
    (2.) If it appears to a sheriff, magistrate, or justice that any animal or article which has been seized, or is liable to be seized, under this section is diseased, or unsound or unfit for the food of man, he shall condemn the same and order it to be destroyed or so disposed of as to prevent it from being exposed for sale or used for the food of man; and the person to whom the Same belongs or did belong at the time of sale or exposure for sale, or deposit or transmission for the purpose of sale, or of preparation for sale, or in whose possession or on whose premises the same was found, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds for every animal or article, or if the article consists of food, vegetables, corn, bread, or flour, for every parcel thereof so condemned, unless he proves that he and the person. acting on his behalf (if any) did not know and could not with reasonable care have known that it was such a condition, or where the proceedings are before a sheriff, at the discretion of the court, if it finds that he has knowingly and wilfully committed the offence he shall be liable, without the infliction of a penalty, to imprisonment for a term of not more than three months with or without hard labour, and also to pay all expenses caused by the seizure, detention, or disposal thereof.
    Provided that if such person proves that the animal or part thereof condemned as aforesaid was, within a reasonable time prior to the seizure thereof, examined upon the premise where the animal was slaughtered and passed by a veterinary surgeon approved as aforesaid, called in for the purpose, and who shall have granted a certificate of passing as nearly as may be as in the next sub-section provided, or by a veterinary surgeon in terms of that sub-section, he shall be exempt from penalty or imprisonment under this section for such offence.
    (3.) Each local authority may, if they think fit, appoint a place or places within its district, and fix a time or times at which a veterinary surgeon approved as aforesaid, shall attend for the purpose of examining any animal alive or dead which may these be submitted to him, and passing or condemning the same, and such veterinary surgeon shall, on receipt of a fee to be fixed by the local authority and paid by the owner, examine and pass or condemn in whole or in part any animal or carcass so submitted to him; and if he shall pass the
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    same he shall grant a certificate of passing which shall set forth the name of the owner, the date and hour of examination, and such particulars regarding the animal or carcass as the local authority may prescribe for the purpose of aiding in the subsequent identification of the same; and if he shall condemn the animal or carcass, or part thereof, the animal or carcass or part so condemned shall be retained and be forthwith destroyed by the local authority or so disposed of as to prevent it from being exposed for sale or used for the food of man, and the owner shall be entitled to the net price realised from the residual product of the carcass or part so condemned, if any, after deducting the expenses of condemnation and destruction. Provided that no carcass shall be submitted 60 examination, either under this or the immediately preceding sub-section, unless as a whole carcass, including the thoracic and abdominal viscera, in such manner that the examiner shall be readily able to satisfy himself that the organs are those of the carcass under inspection.
    (4.) Where it is shown that any animal or article liable to be seized under this sction and found in the possession of any person was purchasd by him or consigned to him from another person for the food of man, and when so purchased or consigned was in such a condition as to be liable to be seized and condemned under this section, the person who so sold or consigned the same shall be liable to be brought to trial in the. district in which such animal or article was seized, and on conviction shall be liable to the penalty and imprisonment above mentioned unless he prove that at the time sold or consigned the said animal or article he and the person acting on his behalf, if any, did nit know and could not with reasonable care have known that it was in such a condition.
    (5.) A copy of any certificate granted by a veterinary surgeon, under Sub-sections two or three of this section, shall forthwith be sent by him to the chief constable of the jurisdiction in which the examination of the animal or carcass took place, and the certificate itself shall be sent by the person selling the animal or carcass forthwith after the sale and not more than seven days from the date of the certificate, to the chief constable of the jurisdiction in which the sale of the animal or carcass took place, and if any veterinary surgeon or person shall contravene this enactment he shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds.
    (6.) Where a person convicted of an offence under this section has been within twelve months previously convicted of an offence order this section, the sheriff, magistrate or justice, may, if he think fit and find that the offender knowingly and wilfully committed both such offences, order that a notice of the facts be affixed, in such form and manner and for such period not exceeding twenty-one days. as the sheriff, magistrate, or justice may order, to any premises occupied by that person, and that the person do pay the cost of such affixing, and if any person obstructs the affixing of such notice or removes, defaces, or conceals the notice while affixed during the said

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    period, he shall for each offence be liable to a penalty not exceeding five pounds.
    (7.) If the occupier of a licensed slaughter house is convicted of an offence under this section, the sheriff, magistrate, or justice convicting him may cancel the licence for such slaughter house.
    (8.) If any person obstructs a medical officer, sanitary inspector, or veterinary surgeon as aforesaid in the performance of his duty under this section, he shall, where the proceedings are before a sheriff, be liable to imprisonment for any term not exceeding one month in lien of any penalty authorised by this Act for such obstruction.
    (9.) A. sheriff, magistrate, or justice may act in adjudicating on an offender under this section whether he has or has not acted in ordering the animal or article to be destroyed or disposed of.
    He said that, in the discussions in Committee, hon. Members would remember that an Amendment was accepted which had been proposed by the hon. Member for Midlothian. Afterwards it was found that there were several objections to the precise form of the Amendment. Various interests were affected; local authorities were anxious that the provisons of the Bill should not be cluded in any way, and the butchers were anxious that trade should not be unduly hampered, while fanners were anxious that they should have, where they acted honestly, some way of protecting themselves against the possible injustice that the fault in sending diseased meat was not theirs. The various parties representing these bodies met, and they gave him an opportunity of considering their views by two Amendments standing in the name of the hon. Member for West Edinburgh and Midlothian. He had a conference with them and came to the conclusion that all parties might be satisfied if those two Amendments were practically put together. As that would, however, give a great deal of trouble, it was thought better to insert a new clause, which, while representing the greater part of Clause 43, embodied this arrangement. He had been given to understand that the clause as now framed was satisfactory to his hon. Friends.
    Clause read the First time.
    MR. JAMES BRYCEcalled attention to the use of the word "food," and asked whether it was construed so as to exclude "condiments" that would be consumed. He pointed
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    out also that it was not always easy to get a veterinary surgeon, and that it might be well to insert "or other competent person" after "sanitary inspector."
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEdid not think that there could be any doubt as to the use of the word "food." The second point raised had been discussed in Committee, and they came to a reasonable agreement as to the veterinary surgeon examining animals.
    DR. FARQUHARSONsaid that this clause was a reasonable concession to agricultural opinion. The farmers were of opinion that the clause as originally drafted was too drastic. Occasionally there might be some delay in widespread districts and glens in Scotland in getting the services of a properly qualified veterinary surgeon.
    MR. CALDWELLthought that the proposed examination was of a novel character, and he rather objected to it.
    SIR C. CAMERONsaid that the Corporation of Glasgow had been opposed to a certain provison in the Bill, but he was informed that they now saw their way to accept the clause as it stood.
    Clause rend a Second time.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved an Amendment empowering the medical officer or inspector to search any cart or vehicle "or any barrow, basket, sack, bag, or parcel."
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved the omission from Sub-section (1) of the words: —
    "Provided that in the case of any proceeding under this section with regard to a living animal, the medical officer or sanitary inspector, unless he is himself a qualified veterinary surgeon, shall be accompanied by a veterinary surgeon approved as aforesaid."
    He said that in the preliminary stage of this business they were dealing with the arrest of a diseased animal. At this point they should not require the attendance of a veterinary surgeon, because in mutiny parts of the Highlands they could not procure the services or such a man, and the animal might be slaughtered before the veterinary surgeon arrived.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that the matter was fully discussed in the Committee, and the veterinary surgeons objected, as the Bill originally stood, that their duties were being given over to sanitary inspectors. This proviso was accepted as a compromise, and he hoped that the decision of the Committee would be upheld.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved an Amendment empowering the police to search carts or vehicles, "or barrows, baskets, sacks, bags, or parcels."
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved an Amendment limiting the penalty under the Bill to £20 instead of "£50."
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEthought that it would be better to maintain the penalty inserted in the Bill.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendments made:—
    In Sub-section (3), after "authority," insert "or two or more local authorities in combination"; after "district" insert "or their districts" after "the local authority" insert "or authorities "; after "the local authority" insert "or authorities"; after "the local authority" insert "or authorities."—(Sir T. Gibson-Carmichael.)
    In Sub-section (6), after "sheriff," insert,—
    "and where the sheriff is satisfied that the obstruction was with intent to prevent the discovery of an offence under this section, or has within twelve months previously been convicted of such obstruction."
    In Sub-section (9), after "animal," insert "or carcass."—(Mr. Caldwell.)
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE, after Clause 187, moved to insert the following Clause,—

    REFERENCE TO PUBLIC HEALTH ACTS.
    188. "Where, in any public, general, or local Act the Public Health Acts or any sections thereof are referred to, such reference shall be deemed to mean and include a reference to this Act, or the corresponding sections of this Act
    764
    and any Amendments thereof; and the expression 'public health rate' in any such Act shall mean the public health general assessment under this Act."
    Clause read First and Second time, and added.
    MR. PARKER SMITHhad given notice of a new clause dealing with sewers in burghs.
    *MR. SPEAKERsaid the clause proposed to alter the incidence of taxation. It was therefore out of order on the present stage of the Bill.
    MR. PARKER SMITH, on the point of order, urged that the object of the clause was simply to define how the whole matter stood. It left things exactly as they were, and was intended simply to make it clear whether the existing Bill would apply to certain cases where it was doubtful.
    *MR. SPEAKERsaid that as it appeared to him that under the clause taxes were to be raised by different bodies than those by which they were raised before, and taxation would be raised over a different area.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he anticipated that Mr. Speaker would rule the clause out of order on the grounds he had indicated.
    MR. PARKER SMITHasked if he could move the first paragraph of the clause? It raised sufficiently the point he desired.
    *MR. SPEAKERsaid it spoke of the cost of maintenance, which seemed to be a charge of a different nature from that previously existing, and falling on different people. The clause was out of order; so also was the clause relating to waterworks in burghs.
    SIR LEWIS McIVERhad the following Notice on the Paper: After Clause 186 to insert the following Clause,—
    "Nothing contained in this Act shall prejudice or affect the provisions of any Act under which any authority is constituted and authorised to supply water within any district or limits created by such Act."
    The hon. Member said he did not propose to move the Clause, as the Lord Advocate had undertaken to insert words in the Bill which would satisfy its object.

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    Several clauses stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. CALDWELL, dealing with the constitution of port local authorities; the jurisdiction of port local authority: the delegation of powers by port local authority; the expenses of port local authority; proceedings for raising a sum for payment of debt within district of a defaulting authority; notification infectious disease; power of local authority to add to number of infectious diseases of which notification is required; and non-disqualification of medical officer by receipt of fees.
    *MR. SPEAKERruled the clauses out of order, on the ground that they altered he incidence of taxation.
    MR. CALDWELL, on the point of order, denied that they would have that effect. He only desired that the Local Government Board should be enabled to compel local authorities to do as a whole what they were authorised to do as individuals.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he would endeavour to have the object of the clauses provided for in another place.
    Clause3,—

    DEFINTIONS.
    In this Act the following words and expressions have the meanings hereinafter assigned to them, unless such meaning is inconsistent with the context:
    The word "Board" means the Local Government Board for Scotland;
    The word "secretary" includes assistant secretary;
    The expression "medical officer" means a duly qualified medical practitioner appointed by the local authority under the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889 or under the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act 1892, or under the Acts repealed by this Act or under this Act;
    The expression "sanitary inspector" means a sanitary inspector appointed by the local authority under the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889, or under the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act 1892, or under the Acts repealed by this Act or under this Act;
    The word "parish" means a parish quoad civilia exclusive of any burgh situated or partly situated therein;
    The word "burgh" includes not only royal burgh, parliamentary burgh, burgh incorporated by Act of Parliament, but also any police burgh within the meaning of the Burgh Police (Scotland)Act 1892;
    The word "county" means a county exclusive of any burgh, and does not include a county of a city;
    766
    The word "district" means the district of any local authority under this Act;
    The expression "district committee" means a district committee under the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889, and subject to the provisions of Section seventy-eight, Sub-section three, of that Act., as amended by Section nineteen, Sub-section seven of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1894, in the case of a county not divided into districts includes a county council;
    The word "magistrate" means a magistrate or judge having police jurisdiction under the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act 1892, or under any general or local Police Act;
    The word "decree" or "decern" includes any warrant, sentence, judgment, order, or interlocutor;
    The word "premises" includes lands, buildings, tents, vans, structures of any kind, streams, lakes, seashore, drains, ditches, or places open, covered, or inclosed, whether built on or not, and whether public or private, and whether maintained or not under statutory authority, and any ship, lying in any sea, river, harbour, or other water, or ex adverso of any place within the limits of the local authority;
    The word "ship" includes any sailing or steam ship, vessel, or boat;
    The word "street" includes any highway and any public bridge, and any road, lane, footway, square, court, or passage, whether a thoroughfare or not, and whether or not there are houses in such street;
    The word "house" means a dwelling-house, and includes schools, also factories and other buildings in which persons are employed;
    The word "owner" means the person for the time entitled to receive, or who would, if the same were let, be entitled to receive, the rents of the premises, and includes a trustee, factor, tutor, or curator, and in case of public or municipal property applies to the persons to whom the management thereof is entrusted;
    The word "occupier" means, in the case of a building or part, of a building, the person in occupation or having the charge, management, or control thereof, either on his own account or as the agent of another person, and in the case of a ship means the master or other person in charge thereof;
    The word "company" includes commissioners;
    The expression "author of a nuisance" means the person through whose act or default the nuisance is caused, exists, or is continued, whether he be the owner or occupier or both;
    The expression "common lodging-house" means a, house or part, thereof where lodgers are housed at an amount not exceeding fourpence per night, or such other sum as shall be fixed under the provisions of this Act, for each person

    767
    whether the same be payable nightly or weekly, or for any period not longer than a fortnight;
    The expression "keeper of a common lodging-house" includes any person having or acting in the care and management of a common lodging-house;
    The word "cattle" means bulls, cows, oxen, heifers, and calves, and includes sheep, goats, and swine;
    The word "dairy" includes any farm, farmhouse, cowshed, milk store, milk shop, or other place from which milk is supplied, or in which milk is kept for purposes of sale;
    The word "dairyman" includes any cow-keeper, purveyor of milk, or soupier of a dairy.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved to leave out the words,—
    "the expression 'medical officer' means a duly qualified practitioner appointed by the local authority under,"
    and to insert,—
    "expressions 'medical officer of health' and 'medical officer' mean a legally qualified medical practitioner appointed by the local authority."
    SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid he thought it made the Bill somewhat obscure to have the two terms "medical officer" and "medical officer of health" running throughout the Statute. A Measure like this, which promised to be a great consolidating Measure and of great use to the health of the country, should be as perfect as possible. If the term "medical officer of health" were used throughout, they would have a title indicating the functions of the person holding the office. An ordinary person taking up an Act of Parliament, and finding in one place an officer described as the "medical officer," and in another place an officer described as the "medical officer of health," would be confronted by a condition of things not at all perfect. He wished, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman would adopt the term "medical. officer of health'' throughout. Another objection he had to take was this. It was not in any way indicated that these officers to be appointed under the Bill, especially the sanitary officers, were to have sanitary qualifications. He knew it was not, required in all cases; but until it was insisted upon, the public health of this country would never be placed on a proper basis. The House having placed
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    upon the Statute-book other Acts which require sanitary qualifications in the men who filled appointments of this kind, he was sorry that in this Bill they had not attempted to bring it up to the standard to which he had referred. He hoped they would hear from the right hon. Gentleman that he was not wedded to this particular Amendment; but that he was willing to adopt the title "medical officer of health" throughout the Bill as the proper description of an officer whose functions were to look after the health of the community. It would get rid of ambiguity and prevent confusion in the public mind, and would make the Bill more easily understood.
    DR. FARQUHARSONsaid he was sure the general public, who were not possessed of the legal subtlety of the Lord Advocate, would think there was some essential difference or distinction between two classes of officers. In fact, before he heard the explanation of the Lord Advocate, he was under the impression that there was some subtle distinction of that kind; and although he was now told that no such distinction was implied, he was afraid it would lead to confusion. It would be much better to make the matter perfectly clear by sticking to the old title "medical officer of health." Then, with regard to the next Amendment, of which the Lord Advocate had given notice, would it not be better to use the term "registered" instead of "legally qualified" medical practitioner?
    SIR ROBERT REIDpointed out that if "legally qualified" were left out and "registered" inserted, it might have the effect that no person who was medically qualified could he a medical officer under the Bill unless he happened to be registered. Now that was not the sense of the Committee, for they passed Clause 15 enabling a person in certain cases to be a medical officer, although he did not possess certain definite qualifications. Under that clause a registered medical practitioner might be considered to be qualified as a medical officer of health, whereas the two things required a different certificate or diploma. What he wanted to ask the Lord Advocate was this—would the words "legally qualified medical practitioner," as used in the Amendment, interfere with the operation of Clause 15

    769
    from line 28 to line 34? He did not want to press the right hon. Gentleman just now. It was a matter requiring to be looked into; and if he would promise to do so, with a view to modifying the Amendment at a later stage if necessary, he should be content, as he understood the right hon. Gentleman did not wish to interfere with Clause 15.
    CAPTAIN SINCLAIRsaid the real point, as the House would recognise, was a double one. In the first place, there was the question of the name or title of the medical officer of health. That had been dealt with already, and in the remarks made by hon. Members he entirely agreed. In all English legislation of this kind the medical officer was called the medical officer of health, and it would be a blot upon this Bill if they were to have a loose definition, which said that medical officer of health and medical officer meant the same thing, viz. a legally qualified medical practitioner. But there was another point. Practically they were taking a backward step in not requiring that in all instances the medical officer should hold a diploma of public health, which as the years went on every local authority would regard as an essential qualification. ["Hear, hear!"]
    SIR WILLIAM PRIESTLEYthought there might be some misapprehension, inasmuch as the words "registered medical practitioner" simply meant one duly qualified for medical practice, and on the medical register. No man who was qualified by passing medical examinations could sign a certificate nor give evidence in a court of law until he became registered. Therefore it did not in the least affect the question raised.
    DR. CLARKsaid he took it that the words "legally qualified" meant in accordance with the Local Government Act and the Burgh Police Act. That was to say, no one could be legally appointed unless he held a diploma in Public Health, or was appointed before the Act of 1878-9. He thought that he made this point in Committee, and the Lord Advocate had put these Amendments on the Paper to meet him. As the Amendments stood, they first defined a medical officer of health by using the term "legally qualified" instead of "duly
    770
    qualified;" and he took it the "legal" qualification meant that if a man was appointed since the passing of the Local Government Act, he must have the qualification required by that Act, and only those who were appointed before the passing of the Local Government Act and the Burgh Police Act could hold office without that qualification. The provision that "legally qualified medical practitioner" should mean a "registered medical practitioner qualified as the case may be," meant that he should be not merely qualified in medicine, surgery, and midwifery, but that he should be qualified in public health.
    *MR. SPEAKER: That is another Amendment.
    DR. CLARKsubmitted that the two Amendments of the Lord Advocate were practically the same—one was contingent upon tae other. Originally they had the words "duly qualified." That was considered too loose, and now they had "legally qualified medical practitioner." Now he took it that, inasmuch as the two Acts to which he had referred required a diploma of public health as a necessary condition of appointment, unless the appointment was made before the passing of the Act of 1878–9, these words "legally qualified medical practitioner" meant a man holding the diploma of public health. If that was meant, and if the Lord Advocate would say that was what was meant, then he was satisfied. But if they were in the position they were in before the Act of 1878–9 was passed, when any medical man might be appointed, if he was "duly qualified" in medicine, surgery, and midwifery, knowing nothing about public health, then the qualification was not satisfactory. What they wanted to get at was this, a man should not be held qualified for the post of medical officer of health unless he held the diploma which proved him to have had special training in the subject of public health. The ordinary medical man, unless he had received this special training, was no better than anybody else. They wanted a specially qualified class of men, and the only way to get there was to insist on their having passed the examinations which entitled them to the proper diploma. He wanted the Lord Advocate to tell them whether the phraseology he

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    had adopted would limit these appointments to men who were so qualified?
    SIR C. CAMERONsaid the hon. and learned Member for Dumfries Burghs had expressed a fear that under this Amendment the appointment of men who did not hold a diploma of public health', under Clause 15, would be interfered with. It would not be interfered with because every man must be on the medical register in respect of other qualifications, and he would not be entitled to appear there in respect of holding a diploma of public health. His hon. Friend the Member for Caithness would see that it did not make the provision he would like to see. But that matter did not arise now. It would arise on Clause 15, upon which he himself had an Amendment on the Paper. But he would ask the right lion. Gentleman what was the necessity for making such a great alteration in this clause? If he were simply to say that the expression "medical officer of health" or "medical officer" meant a duly qualified medical practitioner appointed by the local authority under whatever Acts he might choose to enumerate, would not that meet the necessities of the case? The ambiguity was still further increased by the Lord Advocate's Amendment of Clause 15 as drafted. It appeared to him that this Amendment of Clause 3 was rather clumsy. To say that a medical officer of health should be a legally qualified medical practitioner, and then that a legally qualified medical practitioner should be a registered medical practitioner, was rather a roundabout way of doing it.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEobserved that surely it was simpler to say what they had done in Committee, as they did by the form in which the Bill now stood. There was no distinction between the two classes of medical officers.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Amendments made: At the end of the same paragraph insert—
    "Wherever in this Act the expression 'legally qualified medical practitioner' is used, it shall mean a registered medical practitioner qualified as the case may be."
    In the next paragraph leave out "under the Local Government (Scotland) Act, 1889, or."—(Lord Advocate.)
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved, at the end of the same paragraph to insert—
    "The expressions 'veterinary surgeon,' and 'qualified veterinary surgeon,' mean a member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons."
    DR. CLARKwas not sure that this Amendment would exactly meet the case. In addition to "members" there were "fellows." A fellow had a higher diploma and qualification than a member and yet not be included under this expression. Would it not be better to apply the same rule to veterinary as to ordinary surgeons?
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEwould inquire if there was any necessity for doing so.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause 6,—

    POWERS OF THE BOARD TO INQUIRE INTO SANITARY CONDITIONS OF ANY DISTRICT.
    It shall be lawful for the Board, upon written application by a parish council or ten or more persons interested, or upon the report of any of the inspecting officers of the Board, to inquire into the sanitary condition of any district or part of a district, and for this purpose the Board are hereby empowered to make inquiries, and require answers or returns to be made to the Board upon any question or matter connected with or relating to the purposes of this Act, and also by a summons, signed by one of their number or by the Secretary, to require the attendance of all such persons as they may think fit to call before them upon any such question or matter, and to administer oaths to and examine upon oath all such persons, and to require and enforce the production upon oath of all books, contracts, agreements, accounts, and writings, or copies thereof respectively, in anywise relating to any such question or matter.
    DR. CLARKmoved to leave out the word "ten" and to insert the word "five." He observed that, while for the purpose of this inquiry it might be easy to get ten ratepayers in populous districts, there would be a difficulty in doing so in sparsely populated districts, and he would, therefore, suggest that five should be the number.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEobserved that in the Committee there was a great deal of discussion on this part of the Bill, and eventually on taking a Division they settled that ten ratepayers should be the requisite number. He was quite sure

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    the House would do the right thing in keeping to the number so fixed upon.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Clause 10—

    PENALTIES ON PERSONS GIVING FALSE EVIDENCE OR REFUSING TO OBEY SUMMONS OF' THE BOARD.
    If any person, upon any examination on oath under the authority of this Act, shall wilfully give false evidence, he shall be deemed guilty of perjury, and shall be liable to the pains and penalties thereof; and in case any person shall wilfully refuse to attend in obedience to any summons of the Board, or member or commissioner authorised or appointed by the Board as aforesaid, or to give evidence, or shall wilfully refuse to produce any books, contracts, agreements, accounts, and writings, or copies of the same, which may be required to be produced before the Board, or member thereof, or commissioner or commissioners, or shall wilfully neglect or disobey any of the orders of the Board, or member or commissioner, or be guilty of any contempt of the Board, or member or commissioner, such person being thereof lawfully convicted, shall forfeit and pay for the first offence any sum not exceeding five pounds, for the second and every subsequent offence any sum not exceeding twenty pounds nor less than five pounds.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, after the word "pounds" to insert the Word "and."
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause 12,—

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES TO EXECUTE ACT.
    The following shall respectively be the local authority to execute this Act within the districts hereunder stated:

    (1.) In burghs subject to the provisions of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act 1892, the town council or burgh commissioners:

    (2.) In other burghs, the town council or board of police, as the case may be:

    (3.) In districts where the county is divided into districts under the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889, and, subject to the provisions of Section seventeen of that Act, as amended by this Act, the district committee:

    (4.) In counties where the county is not so divided, the County Council, subject to the provisions of Section seventy-eight, Sub-section three, of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889, as amended by Section nineteen, Subsection seven, of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1894.

    Provided always that wherever, except in regard to a burgh, the expression "local authority" is in this Act used with reference to rating, borrowing, or acquiring or holding land, it shall mean the County Council.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved at the end of the Clause to insert—
    "but this proviso shall not be construed to extend or diminish the exemption from stamp duties contained in Section one hundred and sixty-eight of this Act."
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause 15,—

    LOCAL AUTHORITY TO APPOINT MEDICAL AND OTHER OFFICERS.
    The local authority shall appoint a medical officer or medical officers, and a sanitary inspector or inspectors, the latter of whom shall be also inspector or inspectors of common lodging-houses, and the local authority shall, subject to the approval of the Board, regulate the duties of such medical officers and sanitary inspectors and their relations to each other, whether appointed before or subsequent to the commencement of this Act; and the local authority may, and if required by the Board shall, appoint convenient places for their offices, and shall allow to every such medical officer and sanitary inspector and every other officer or clerk appointed by them on account of his employment a proper salary or remuneration; and the names and addresses and salaries of the said medical officers and sanitary inspectors shall be reported by the local authority to the Board immediately on such persons being appointed such salaries fixed; and the said medical officers and sanitary inspectors, and the local authority and their clerk, and the registrars of births, deaths, and marriages shall be bound to make such returns and special reports to the Board in such form and at such times as the Board shall require. The medical officer may, when required by the local authority, exercise any of the powers with which the sanitary inspector is invested by this Act.
    No person shall, except with the express consent of the Board, be appointed as a medical officer of a burgh unless he possesses the qualifications set forth in Section seventy-seven of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act 1892. No person shall be appointed as the medical officer in any district, other than a burgh, unless he possesses the qualifications set forth in Section fifty-four of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1889.
    No medical officer or sanitary inspector appointed by the local authority under this or any of the repealed Acts shall be removable from office, except by or with the sanction of the Board.
    The registrar of births, deaths, and marriages in each registration district shall furnish to the local authority such periodical returns of births and deaths as may be required of him and approved by the Board, and for each death included in such return and for each return of births he shall be paid by the local authority the sum of twopence, and the local authority shall provide the forms on which such returns are to be made, and shall pay for their transmission by letter post.

    775
    The medical officer and sanitary inspector shall, if required by the local authority, respectively name a duly qualified substitute for whom they shall be responsible, and if the authority shall approve of the nomination, such substitute shall have the same powers and duties as the medical officer or sanitary inspector, as the case may be, during the temporary illness or authorised absence of either of them, and the local authority may from time to time with consent of the Board withdraw their approval of such substitute, and may require the medical officer or sanitary inspector, as the case may be, to name for their approval sonic other duly qualified substitute.
    Nothing contained in this Act shall prejudice or affect the existing officers and servants of the local authorities under any Act in force at the passing of this Act, and such officers and servants shall without any further appointment be the officers and servants of the local authorities under this Act, with the same tenure (if any), powers, duties, and emoluments as heretofore.
    SIR LEONARD LYELLmoved, after the Words "The local authority shall" to insert the words "if required by the Board." He submitted that in the less populous districts in the north of Scotland, if there was to be a compulsory appointment of these officials, who were dismissible only by the Local Government Board, there would be great hardship inflicted, and he urged that there should be the dispensing power retained by the Board which he now asked for by his Amendment, and which was given in another part of the clause.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEcould not accept the Amendment. He did not think that the Local Government Board ought to be subjected to the pressure which might occasionally be put upon them to induce them to dispense with the appointment of these officials.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment made: After "medical officers" insert "who shall be called medical officers or medical officers of health."—(Lord Advocate.)
    CAPTAIN SINCLAIRmoved, after the words last added, to insert the words, "whose duty it shall be to superintend and enforce the sanitary provisions of this Act." He explained that the object of the Amendment was to provide for a distinct definition of the position of the medical officer as the head of the sanitary department of the local authority. His
    776
    first reason for suggesting this Amendment was that in respect of this matter the Bill differed from the Bill of last year as it left the Committee of the House of Lords, and from the Bill as sent to the Standing Committee by the Government this year. Under the first part of this clause the local authority was given power to regulate the relations of the medical officer to the sanitary inspector, but in the last paragraph of the clause that power was encroached upon, and still further encroachments were made upon it in subsequent clauses. These clauses increased the statutory powers which the sanitary inspector already possessed, and to that extent limited the discretion of the local authority in this regard. In England, public health legislation had gone generally upon the lines of placing responsibility on the local authorities. It was true that the Local Government Board prescribed regulations under which the local authorities acted, but the idea was that local authorities should have liberty to regulate and co-ordinate the functions of their officers. But in Scotland the case had been different. Under the Public Health Acts powers were conferred upon the local authorities to make bye-laws to regulate the relations of medical officers and inspectors, but, on the other hand, special statutory powers were conferred upon sanitary officers, and the power of the local authority was thereby limited. The Board of Supervision and its successor, the Local Government Board, had lent their influence against enlarging the authority and discretion of local bodies. They had repeatedly pleaded that the statutory powers given to the sanitary inspectors rendered it undesirable that wider authority should be given to local bodies to regulate and co-ordinate the work and powers of the inspectors. Apparently by the beginning of the clause before the House, full power was now given to the local authority to regulate the relations of these officers, but when he looked at the end of the clause he found that that power was whittled and, as he had explained, it was encroached upon still further in other clauses. What lay behind this action On the part of the supporters of the Bill? Part II. of the Bill dealt with sanitary provisions, and Part III. with the mitigation and general prevention of diseases,

    777
    the usual discrimination being thereby set up between the work of the sanitary inspector and the work of the medical officer. The duty of attending to such matters as nuisances, offensive trades, slaughter houses, seavengering, unsound meat, foul ditches, sewers, etc., was to be regarded as the duty of the sanitary inspector, and when the disease had been engendered and developed, the medical officer was to step in and deal with it. Surely it was not right that about five-sixths of the causes of disease should be dealt with by the sanitary inspector. He knew of a case in a large town in Scotland where the sanitary inspector issued a notice requiring a certain owner to repair a block of houses, and sanitary conveniences had to be supplied throughout the block. Two years and a-half afterwards this block of buildings cone under the notice of the medical officer, who was obliged to bring the subject of their condition before the local authority, showing that these dwellings were unfit for habitation, and a closing order was issued, shutting them up. The circumstances were very hard upon the owner, and if there had been co-ordination between the sanitary and the medical authorities his interests would not have been sacrificed in the same way. He would give another instance of the evil results of the present system. In one county in Scotland the sanitary inspector refused for 12 months to lay before the medical officer information in his possession upon which alone the medical officer could take steps to prevent the spread of a disease. It was surely fair to say that sanitary inspectors in putting forward that argument, did so upon exceptional cases, and not on the general rule. The only other argument was that which would naturally come from any class of men who believed that their vested statutory rights were in peril. He did not himself doubt that the position of sanitary inspectors would be better in the future than it was at present, and that they would be better qualified to take their share in public health administration. He entirely disclaimed the idea of speaking against a deserving class of officers. For a few moments he turned to one or two points urged in Committee against his proposal. He was not present when the clause itself was under discussion, but in the
    778
    discussion on a later clause, he protested as he was protesting now against the relations with these officers, though he did not take a Division. In the first place, it was said that medical officers would want increased salaries, but there was no evidence of that, and no expectation, so far as he had ascertained, that the passing of this Amendment would lead to increased salaries for medical officers. Looking at the salaries of Scottish medical officers of health, they would be found in no way exceptional. The Lord Advocate the other day pointed out that his salary was subject to the inferiority of Scottish salaries as compared with those in England. Medical officers' salaries in Scotland were on a slightly lower scale than the English, but not so as to attract any particular attention, and there was every reason to believe that they were satisfied as much as any class of men were satisfied with their present salaries. Then there was the question of private practice, and it was put forward that we should rather lean on sanitary inspectors than on medical officers, because the latter often had private practice. That was perfectly true in the smaller burghs, but it was not true of the counties or the more important cities and towns that medical officers frequently engaged in private practice, but the tendency of public health administration in Scotland was to employ county medical officers in the small burghs. By a clause in the Bill, the main obstacle to the employment of county medical officers in burghs would be removed. There had been jealousy in burghs that they should be obliged to contribute to the salaries of county medical officers while paying their own, but the obligation would be removed, and he was certain that the extension of the authority of the county medical officers would be approved over the country generally, in order to render sanitary responsibility and administration more complete in the county. Looking at the question of private practice, and the position of sanitary inspectors, the latter were often occupied in duties no more akin to their duties than was the private practice of medical officers. Medical officers were qualified practitioners, and sanitary inspectors had not the required qualifications. Then there was the question of

    779
    the Highland counties, and it was said that it would sacrifice public health administration to put the whole of the sanitary responsibility on the medical officer as head of the department. What was the fact in the Highland counties? The Highland counties recognised the difficulty imposed by distance, and they had obtained the services of parish medical officers. In Argyllshire 27 medical officers were employed; in Aberdeenshire 41, in Inverness-shire 23, and Ross and Cromarty 16. And for what purpose? To advise the local sanitary inspectors as to carrying out the work that fell to them; so as hon. Members would see the medical officer of the department so to speak infusing into the work his knowledge, and dealing with any sanitary difficulty that arose. It was said that medical officers were frequently "faddists" and that they would be likely to involve local authorities in dangerous proceedings and owners in great expense, but he had shown by an instance which could he multiplied, that it was the action of sanitary inspectors and not of medical officers that involved householders in great expense. That was what might be expected. How could an unskilled man be expected to be conversant with the latest discoveries and to be guided by the spirit of public health administration rather than by adherence to some particular detail. A sanitary inspector would pin his faith to some particular kind of trap or sewers or drain which might have been superseded by later discoveries. It was not the case that acceptance of the proposal would involve the local authority in any greater responsibility than it had at present. With the clause amended as he suggested the local authority would always have the power to act independently of the medical officer; he would be the servant of the sanitary authority, bringing to that service the results of the latest discoveries, and the benefits of modern research, There was overwhelming evidence in favour of the course he suggested, from the experience of administration in England and Scotland. There was one exception to the public opinion to which he would allude. The full effect of the change made in Standing Committee was not appreciated until the later clauses were reached, and the
    780
    change was made under somewhat peculiar conditions, which would be familiar to the hon. Member for East Renfrew, and in opposition to the view of the County Councils Association. The Association were inclined to take the view he was expressing, but the hon. Member for East Renfrew, with that great authority which rightly attached to him, strongly represented that the Committee had made this change, and they should fall into line with the opinion of Scottish Members; but it would be found, on reference to the proceedings of the Association, that, though they deferred to the authority of the hon. Member, there were many protests against the change, and there were high authorities against it. The Scottish Chamber of Agriculture had unanimously passed a resolution disapproving of the proposal in the Bill the Glasgow Landlords Association had condemned it, so had the University Court of Glasgow and the General Medical Association. If any body of men had experience in this matter it was the Society of Medical Officers of Health. He asked hon. Gentlemen to consider what they were doing at the present time. If evidence were to count for anything, there was a very serious weight of evidence against the proposal of the Government. In England, both in urban sanitary authorities and rural sanitary authorities, the medical officer of health was at the head of the department.
    On the return of Mr. SPEAKER, after the usual interval,
    CAPTAIN SINCLAIRexpressed his regret that he had been compelled to detain the House so long, but the question was a very important one.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEwished to remind the hon. Member that the duty of a Member of Parliament sometimes was to resist pressure put upon him to put everything before the House. On this occasion he did not know how many Members had not been pressed again and again to bring up subjects on report, and to his knowledge they had done their best to minimise matters so as to bring the discussion within a certain compass. ["Hear, hear!"] It was nothing short of a Parliamentary outrage to have spoken on the Report stage over an hour upon a

    781
    subject which was never raised in Committee at all. How were they, consistently with Parliamentary form, to carry through a Bill of 191 clauses if everybody who had anything to say should speak an hour at least? [Cheers.] That was the reason. of course, that a Bill of this sort was sent to the Grand Committee, where the fullest and freest discussion was permitted. Yet upon that Grand Committee this Amendment was never moved—
    CAPTAIN SINCLAIR: I was not there.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE: The hon. and gallant Member said he was not there. Why not? Because he was packing his trunk in Canada. But if he was not present could nobody voice his views for him? This was no new point. There was, of course, always a contention between medical officers and sanitary inspectors in this matter, and that contention was fought out very keenly in the Select Committee of the House of Lords last year. After that discussion the words now in the Bill were arrived at. Therefore his hon. and gallant Friend's clients had plenty of time to think about them; and when they came to the Grand Committee this Session they had to represent them the hon. Member for the Universities (Sir W. Priestley) and the hon. Member for Bridgeton (Sir Charles Cameron), who were surely enough to represent that current of opinion. [''Hear hear!"] The first thing the Amendment would do would be to put the medical officer not above the sanitary inspector, but above the Local Authority.[Cheers.] He was not at all insensible to the claims of the great profession in whose interest the hon. and gallant Member had spoken. He did not wish for an instant to minimise the good the medical profession could do, or the debt we owed to them in the matter of public health. But he did not think the medical profession would do any good by doing what he was sure most of them did not do, but what some of them had done, apparently, by the quotations the hon. Member had read—by simply telling various stories about the sanitary inspector. It did not make a medical man white by calling a sanitary inspector black, but the point of the Amendment was, where they to have the
    782
    medical officer put as the statutory head of this department or were they to subordinate him to the Local Authority? He had no hesitation in saying that the view of the Committee upstairs was that the persons who were to be really responsible were to be the Local Authority, and that the medical officer was to be their servant and not their head. [Cheers.] The hon. and gallant Member ought to have known that the Lord Advocate was in communication with the heads of the medical profession, and though he could not do everything they wanted, he did put down certain clauses in the hope that they would minimise the grievance of the medical officers. He was sure the Amendment was against the sense of the Committee upstairs, and if they were to discuss the Bill in this way, they might as well drop it at once. [Cheers.]
    DR. CLARKsaid he was not on the Committee when the decision was come to, but if he had been present he would have voted against the provision now in the Bill. Although he was a medical man himself, he believed that a trade union of medical men was generally just as selfish as the ordinary industrial trade union looking after its own interest; but in this matter he was rather in favour of the view that the medical profession had taken. He had himself been a medical officer of health, and from his professional experience he thought the course suggested in the Amendment was better than the Bill, or even than the compromise in the Government Amendment, which would make it optional for the local authority to determine the position and duties of the sanitary inspector and the medical officer. The mistake the Government had made was that they had not adopted the provisions of the English Act in regard to the medical officer.
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid that the Lord Advocate had assumed that the manner in which this Bill was discussed by the Standing Committee was entirely satisfactory to the Scotch Members. The reference to the Standing Committee was strongly objected to because so many of the Scotch Members were unable to serve. As to the Lord Advocate's extremely offensive remark about the hon. Member for Forfarshire "packing his traps in

    783
    Canada," the hon. Member was not appointed on the Committee because there was not room enough for him.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that he saw from a newspaper report of the proceedings in the Committee that the hon. Member for Forfarshire joined in the discussion.
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSONsaid that having had to do with the naming of the Committee, he could only say that his hon. Friend was not put on the Committee because there was not room for him.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE: He was on.
    MR. MUNRO FERGUSON: Only for a short time. He was not on the Committee originally.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid the whole point was whether the hon. Member was on the Committee on that particular day. He saw from a Report of the Proceedings in the Committee on the 8th May that the hon. Member took part in the discussion of Clause 15.
    CAPTAIN SINCLAIRsaid that he was not on the Committee originally, but exchanged subsequently with another hon. Member.
    MR. C. B. RENSHAWdid not agree that the authorities in Scotland looked with dislike on the proposals of the Bill. Recognising the difficulties, they had worked out an efficient system of public health. As to his relations with the County Councils Associations, the hon. Member for Forfarshire was quite inaccurate. He was not present on the day in question until the whole of the proceedings had terminated. He was glad that this Amendment was to be resisted by the Government.
    MR. BRYCEsaid that it was not the intention of his hon. Friend's Amendment to put the medical officer in a position of statutory superiority to the local authority itself. All that was desired was unity of administration, and that the medical officer should be at the head of administration under the local authority. But if the Lord Advocate would not accept this Amendment, perhaps he would not have the same objection to one standing in his name later in the Paper. This was not a question of quarrel between medical officers and the sanitary inspectors. Their relations were usually
    784
    harmonious. But the administration of the Act would be greatly simplified by one person being put at the head.
    DR. FARQUHARSONsaid that he entirely dissented from the Lord Advocate's opinion that it was waste of time to discuss this question. It was a question which had roused more feeling in the medical profession than any other. There was no want of appreciation for the work of the sanitary inspectors, but it was asked that the old conditions of things should continue, and the medical officers should be put at the head of the sanitary inspectors. In his opinion there was ample justification for bringing this matter before the House, and he was sorry that the Lord Advocate, in a moment of aberration, should have characterised his hon. Friend's proceedings in such harsh terms.
    SIR W. PRIESTLEYthought it would be best to leave the clause as it was, and leave the medical officer of health to take that position which his superior education and higher qualifications necessarily entitled him to.
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The House divided:—Ayes, 69; Noes, 127.—(Division List, No. 325.)
    SIR. W. PRIESTLEYmoved, after "Local Government (Scotland) Act. 1889," to insert
    "and this, notwithstanding anything contained in sections seventy-five, seventy-six, and seventy-seven of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act 1892."
    He said the intention of the clause was to leave the regulation of the duties of the sanitary inspector to the local authority, but this would be interfered with if the sections named were not mentioned, because they governed the situation. He begged to move the Amendment.
    CAPTAIN SINCLAIRsaid the earlier part of the clause gave power to the local authorities to regulate the relationships of these officers, and the Amendment was necessary if it was to be done.
    Amendment agreed to.
    DR. CLARKmoved, in the same paragraph to leave out the words "when required by the local authority."
    Amendment agreed to.
    SIR C. CAMERONmoved to omit following words:—
    "No person shall be appointed as a medical officer of a burgh unless he possesses the qualifications set forth in section 77 of the Burgh Police (Scotland) Act, 1892."
    The step which it was proposed to take to lower the medical qualifications of the medical officers was a retrograde step. The reason which had been alleged for the words, was that in certain small towns there might not be a medical man possessing the medical qualification. But, would point out, what was wanted was not merely some sort of medical officer, but one who had made a special study of the subject. The matter had been decided there before three or four times, and he protested against this change being made,—not at the instance of the Committee as a whole, but by a very narrow majority of the Committee upstairs—in such a reactionary manner. He was perfectly certain the Local Government Board would never give permission to deviate from the common law of the country except on reasons shown.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he would leave the matter to the decision of the House. As a matter of fact, he had himself voted for the present Amendment in Committee. Of course, he always felt bound so far as he could to support the Committee. But what had happened was this—the hon. Member for Dumfries Burghs moved to omit the qualification altogether; the hon. Member for Dumfriesshire then moved an Amendment which now stood in the Bill, that Amend-having been carried by a majority of 15 to 13. He had personally voted against it, but he was quite willing that there should he an open vote upon the matter.
    DR. FARQUHARSONhoped that the Lord Advocate would support them in the Division Lobby. This was one of the most retrograde and mischievous proposals ever made in connexion with public health.
    MR. ROBINSON SOUTTAR, believed that the clause was
    786
    inserted in order to meet certain cases of hardship of which the Mover of it was personally aware.
    DR. CLARKsaid that it was only new appointments that were to be provided for.
    Amendment agreed to.
    DR. CAMERONmoved, in the second paragraph, as a consequential Amendment, to leave out the word "in" ["in any district"] and to insert the words "of any burgh, or of."
    Amendment agreed to.
    DR. CLARKmoved the following proviso which stood on the paper in the name of Mr. Rentoul:
    "No person shall, except with the express consent of the Board, for reasons brought to their notice, be appointed a sanitary inspector after the first day of January One thousand nine hundred who does not hold a certificate of such body, as the Local Government Board may from time to time approve, that he has by examination shown himself competent for such office, or shall have been, during three consecutive years preceding the year One thousand nine hundred, a sanitary inspector or inspector of nuisances of an urban sanitary district containing, according to the last-published census, a population of not less than twenty thousand inhabitants."
    He urged that it was desirable these persons should have some qualifications, and it was incumbent on the Government to do something.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEcommented on the unfortunate circumstance that an hon. Member moved an Amendment standing in the name of another hon. Member, and on his not being familiar with the reasons which prompted the Amendment being put down. He was quite willing to consult as to the point sought to be remedied, but he could not accept the Amendment. An "urban sanitary district," for example, did not exist in Scotland.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. BRYCE, in the first paragraph, moved to leave out the words "duly qualified," and to insert the word "competent." He remarked that if duly qualified meant that a man should be competent he would be satisfied. But if the words meant that he should be a

    787
    diplomate of public health it might, in remote districts in Scotland, in the temporary absence of a medical officer, be difficult to find a substitute possessing that qualification.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that a competent man was all that was expected.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment made: In last paragraph, after "shall," insert "save in so far as expressly otherwise provided"; after "with," insert "save as aforesaid"; after "tenure," insert "of office."—(Lord Advocate.)
    SIR W. PRIESTLEYmoved to leave out "powers, duties."
    Amendment negatived.
    Clause 16,—

    GENERAL NUISANCES
    For the purposes of this Act,—

    (1.) Any premises or part thereof in such a state as to be a nuisance or injurious or dangerous to health:

    (2.) Any street, pool, ditch, gutter, watercourse, sink, cistern, watercloset, earth-closet, privy, urinal, cesspool, drain, dung-pit, or ash-pit so foul or in such a state or so situated as to be a nuisance or injurious or dangerous to health:

    (3.) Any well or water supply injurious or dangerous to health:

    (4.) Any stable, byre, or other building in which any animal or animals are kept in such a manner or in such numbers as to be a nuisance or injurious or dangerous to health:

    (5.) Any accumulation or deposit, including any deposit of mineral refuse, which is a nuisance or injurious or dangerous to health, or any deposit of offensive matter, refuse, or offal, or manure (other than farmyard manure or manure from byres or stables), within fifty yards of any public road wherever situated, or any offensive matter, refuse, or offal, or manure contained in uncovered trucks or waggons standing or being at any station or siding or elsewhere on a railway so as to be a nuisance or injurious or dangerous to health:

    (6.) Any work, manufactory, trade, or business, so conducted as to be injurious or dangerous to health, or any collection of rags or bones injurious or dangerous to health:

    (7.) Any house or part of a house so overcrowded as to be injurious or dangerous to the health of the inmates:

    (8.) Any schoolhouse, or any factory which is not a factory subject to the provisions of the Factory and Workshop Acts 1878 to 1895, or any Act amending the same, with respect to cleanliness, ventilation, or overcrowding, and

    (i) is not kept in a cleanly state and free from effluvia arising from any drain,
    788
    privy, watercloset, earth-closet, urinal, or other nuisance, or

    (ii) is not ventilated in such a manner as to render harmless so far as practicable any gases, vapours, dust, or other impurities generated in the course of the work carried on therein that are a nuisance or injurious or dangerous to health, or

    (iii) is so overcrowded while work is carried on as to be injurious or dangerous to the health of those therein employed:

    (9.) Any fireplace or furnace, which does not so far as practicable consume the smoke arising from the combustible used therein, for working engines by steam, or in any mill, factory, dye-house, brewery, bakehouse, or gaswork, or in any manufacturing or trade process whatsoever:

    (10.) Any chimney (not being the chimney of a private dwelling-house) sending forth smoke in such quantity as to be a nuisance or injurious or dangerous to health; and

    (11.) Any churchyard, cemetery, or place of sepulture so situated or so crowded or otherwise so conducted as to be offensive or injurious or dangerous to health, shall be deemed to be nuisances liable to be dealt with summarily in manner provided by this Act: Provided that—

    (a) a penalty shall not be imposed as hereinafter provided on any person in respect of any accumulation or deposit necessary for the effectual carrying on of any business, trade, or manufacture if it be proved to the satisfaction of the court that the accumulation or deposit has not been kept longer than is necessary for the purposes of the business, trade, or manufacture, and that the best available means have been taken for preventing injury or danger thereby to the public health; and

    (b) in considering whether any dwelling-house or part thereof which is also used as a factory, or whether any factory, used also as a dwelling-house, is a nuisance by reason of overcrowding, the court shall have regard to the circumstances of such other use.

    Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), after "thereof," insert "of such a construction or."—[Lord Advocate.)
    SIR T. GIBSON-CARMICHAELmoved in Sub-section (5), after "refuse," to insert "other than spent hops from breweries." The hon. Member said there was a unanimous feeling in Scotland in favour of the Amendment.
    SIR LEWIS E. McIVERsaid that in Committee the Amendment was more than approved of on both sides of the House.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he would accept the Amendment, as he had received many representations that spent

    789
    hops should be placed in the same category as farm-yard manure.
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (5), after "manure," to insert the words "or spent hop manure"; after the words last added to insert "other than aforesaid."—(Mr. Caldwell.)
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, in Sub-section (5), to leave out "uncovered." He could not see the force of exempting from prosecution anything that was a nuisance injurious to health merely because it was in a covered truck. A nuisance was a nuisance whether in a covered truck or an uncovered.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid the hon. Member took a rather different view from himself of the phraseology of the clause—
    "manure contained in uncovered trucks or waggons standing or being at a station or siding or elsewhere so as to be a nuisance dangerous to health."
    It was obvious that offensive material contained in uncovered trucks was much more likely to be injurious to health than if contained in covered trucks. He should be happy, however, to consider the point with the hon. Member if he did not press the Amendment now.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE, who had given notice of the following Amendment:— In Sub-section (5), after "railway "insert "or in any uncovered vessel on a canal," said he would withdraw it in favour of one by the hon. Member for Midlothian.
    Amendment made: In Sub-section (5), after "railway," insert "or in canal boats."—(Sir T. D. Gibson-Carmichael.)
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, in Sub-section (6), to leave out from the beginning to the words "any collection." On reference to Clause (36), it would be found that they had taken out of the Public Health (London) Bill a clause which dealt exactly with the same thing. He moved in order to avoid duplication.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he hoped the hon. Member would not press the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, after "business," to insert, "injurious to the health of the neighbourhood or."
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE: I accept that.
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, in Sub-section (9), after "furnace," to insert "situated within the limits of any burgh or special scavenging district." The clause related to the enforcement of the use of the most modern means of consuming smoke. The object of his Amendment was to prevent this provision being worked so as to be oppressive in its operation as it would be if applied to country districts. It was an entirely new thing to extend this power beyond the burghs, and he thought they ought not to apply it to purely country districts.["Hear, hear!"]
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE: said he was bound to support the Committee, but ho would rather the House decided whether the provision should be limited to the burgh districts or applied to country districts as well.
    THE EARL or DALKEITHhoped the House would give favourable consideration to the proposal. If these powers were applied to country districts they might be very much abused. He believed he was right he was saying that one or two hon. Members who had voted against the proposal in Committee had since changed their minds. ["Hear, hear!"]
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, in Sub-section (9), after "combustible," to insert "matter."
    Clause 18,—

    POWER OF ENTRY TO LOCAL AUTHORITY OR THEIR OFFICERS.
    If the local authority, or medical officer, or sanitary inspector have reasonable grounds for believing that a nuisance exists in any premises, such local authority, or medical officer, or sanitary inspector may demand admission for themselves, the chief constitute or superintendent of police, or any other person or persons whom the local authority may desire to enter and inspect such premises, and, if necessary, to open up the ground of such premises, or for any or all of them, to inspect the same at any

    791
    hour between nine in the morning and six in the evening, or at any hour when the operations suspected to cause the nuisance are believed to be in progress or are usually carried on; and may cause the ground or surface to be opened, and the drains to be tested, or such other work to be done as may be necessary for an effectual examination of the said premises: provided always that if no nuisance be found to exist, the local authority shall adequately restore the premises at their own expense, and if admission be refused, the local authority, or medical officer, or sanitary inspector may apply to the sheriff, or to any magistrate or justice of the peace having jurisdiction in the place, stating on oath such belief; and such sheriff, magistrate, or justice may, with or without intimation to the owner, occupier, or person in charge of the premises, by order in writing, require the occupier or person having the custody of such premises to admit the local authority and others aforesaid; and if such occupier or person refuse or fail to obey such order he shall, on conviction of such offence, be liable to a penalty not exceeding five pounds; and on being satisfied of such failure or refusal, the sheriff, magistrate or or justice may grant warrant to such Person or persons for immediate forcible entry into the premises; and if no such occupier or person can be discovered, or if no person is found on the premises to give or refuse admission, the local authority or their officers may enter the premises without any order or warrant, and forcibly, if need be.
    Provided that if no nuisance be found to exist, the local authority shall adequately restore the premises at their own expense.
    Any order made by a sheriff, magistrate, or justice for the admission of the local authority or their officers or other persons under this section shall continue in force until the nuisance has been removed, or the work for which the entry was necessary has been done.
    SIR LEONARD LYELLmoved, before the words, "may demand admission," to insert "with the sanction of the local authority."
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEhoped the House would not consider this would be an improvement. It might prevent the sanitary inspector acting promptly in remote districts.
    SIR WALTER FOSTERasked the Lord Advocate where these remote districts were in which the sanitary inspectors would be hampered? There were a large number of medical officers of health scattered throughout these districts, and he did not see that any great difficulty would arise in the matter to which he referred.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid the hon. Baronet failed to see the real meaning of the Amendment. It had nothing to do with getting the authority of the medical officers.
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    Amendments made: Leave out "adequately" ["adequately restore "]; leave out "with or without," and insert "after," after "warrant to such," insert "local authority, officers, or." In next paragraph, leave out "adequately."—(Lord Advocate.)
    Clause 22,—
    PROCEEDINGS BY LOCAL AUTHORITY WHEN NUISANCES ARE ASCERTAINED TO EXIST.
    In any case where the existence of a nuisance is ascertained to their satisfaction by the local authority, or is certified to them in writing, signed by the medical officer or by the sanitary inspector, or where the nuisance in the opinion of the local authority did exist at the time when demand of admission was made or the certificate was given, and, although the same may have been since removed or discontinued, is in their opinion likely to recur or to be repeated, they may apply to the sheriff or to any magistrate or justice, by summary petition in manner hereinafter directed, and if it appear to his satisfaction that the nuisance exists, or, if removed or discontinued since the demand of admission was made or the certificate was given, that it is likely to recur or to be repeated, he shall decern for the removal or remedy or discontinuance or interdict of the nuisance as hereinafter mentioned; provided that if it appear to the sheriff or magistrate or justice that the nuisance arose from the wilful fault or culpable negligence either of the owner or occupier of the premises, and that a notice in respect thereof lied previously been served on such author, the sheriff or magistrate or justice may, in addition to making a decree as aforesaid, impose a fine not exceeding dye pounds on such owner or occupier; provided that in the cases sunder Sub-sections (6) and (8) in Section sixteen of this Act such application shall be made only on medical certificate as aforesaid, or on a representation by a parish council, or on a requisition in writing under the hands of any ten ratepayers of the district of the local authority, and that in these cases and the cases under Sub-sections (9) and (10) in said section, it shall be made, only to the sheriff; and farther. that in the cases under Sub-section (11) in Section sixteen it shall not be necessary to cite any person as the author of the nuisance, but such application shall be proceeded with by the sheriff (to whom alone it shall be made) after such intimation to the collector of the churchyard or other dues, or to such other person or persons as to the sheriff shall seem meet; and such person or persons as shall appear after such intimation shall, if the sheriff think proper, be allowed to be heard and to object to such application in the same manner as if he or they were the author of the alleged nuisance within the meaning of this Act.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved, after the words "existence of a nuisance is," to insert "upon a certificate by the medical officer or after a report by the sanitary

    793
    inspector or otherwise." This, he said, was the clause which first, he thought, specifically raised the question of what should be done by the sanitary and what by the medical officer. No doubt this matter had excited a good deal of interest. He should like to say at once that the Government had had no wish to in any way minimise or detract from the position of the medical officer. They entirely recognised the services which he rendered, and the fact that without him they could not satisfactorily carry out the system appertaining to the protection of the public health. But they wanted to make it clear that the medical officer should be the servant and not the master of the local authorities, and accordingly hon. Members would find in each case the person who was to take proceedings in respect of the nuisance, was not any officer, but the local authority. When the Bill was originally introduced, there was only put in this clause the medical officer and not the sanitary inspector. An Amendment was proposed by the hon. Member for Lanark to insert "the sanitary inspector." The view which he took as representing the Government was such as led hint to accept that Amendment. Without in any way wishing to raise the sanitary inspector out of that position which was more appropriate to him, or to make him a qualified person, one did feel that on the question of the existence of a nuisance it would be rather ridiculous if the sanitary inspector saw a nuisance at a point from which the medical officer was miles distant, or a nuisance not requiring technical skill to discover, that they could not have action taken upon it without first of all the sanitary inspector going to find the medical officer, bring him back to the spot, and then the two proceeding to the local authority. That was the view one took in accepting the Amendment. However, upon the discussion that ensued, it appeared that many medical officers thought front the way in which the clause was expressed that upon the question of public health, especially having to do with nuisances and infectious diseases, there was an intention to put the sanitary inspector on exactly the same platform as the medical officer. That was not so, and, accordingly, while he could not go the whole length which had been proposed by some hon. Members, and put the
    794
    medical officer at the head of everything, and while he thought it would be a mistake from the common sense point of view to take the action of the sanitary inspector out of the section altogether, he proposed by this Amendment a middle course. If the Amendment was accepted the clause would read thus, "In any case where the existence of a nuisance is upon a certificate by the medical officer, or after a report of the sanitary inspector, or otherwise ascertained to the satisfaction of the local authorities," and so on. That lest it for certain that the only person who was entitled to certify, with the additional results that might flow from the form of certification, was the medical officer. Still, at the same time, the sanitary inspector might report to his own local authority, and the local authority should be the persons to take action. He had some hopes that, perhaps, this Amendment might reconcile the views of the medical gentlemen, and at the Same time not make them do without what would very often be the practical service of the sanitary inspector when the medical officer was not near to deal with the nuisance. He begged to move the Amendment.
    SIR C. CAMERONsaid that he much preferred die Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Edinburgh and St. Andrew's University. That Amendment proposed to cut out the words referring to the medical officer and the sanitary inspector. It would then be competent for a local authority, in a case where they ascertained the existence of a nuisance, to go directly before the sheriff to prove the circumstances. They ought to follow the English precedent, which gave the local authority a free hand. The Lord Advocate's Amendment left matters precisely where they stood. Whether a sanitary inspector was said to "certify," or to "report," surely did not much matter. The thing done was much the same, and this was a distinction like that between tweedledum and tweedledee. If the Lord Advocate's intention was to conciliate his attempt came too late. Let the right hon. Gentleman act in the spirit of "a plague on both your houses," and let him strike out of the clause all allusion to medical officers and to sanitary inspectors. The local authority ought to be allowed to choose its own means of proving a nuisance before the sheriff.
    SIR W. PRIESTLEYsaid that he should like to cut out of the clause the reference to the medical officer and the sanitary inspector. The practice would then be assimilated to the practice in England, which worked exceedingly well. A medical certificate on the subject of a nuisance was an important matter, and if the sanitary inspector were allowed to certify in exactly the same way as a medical officer it would be derogatory to the medical profession and often troublesome to the public. It was sometimes supposed that a mere sense of smell qualified a person to discover a nuisance, but that, of course was an error. A bad smell was not necessarily injurious to health. A smell was only indicative of some decomposition which might or might not be harmful
    SIR WALTER FOSTERwas glad the hon. Member opposite intended to stick to his Amendment, which was better than the Lord Advocate's. He hoped that some day sanitary inspectors might become qualified to discover the chemical constituents of smelts, but at present they were not so qualified. Persons who had no scientific knowledge at all were often appointed inspectors. Sometimes they were ex-policemen, and sometimes even blacksmiths who had failed in business. [A laugh.] To put such men in the position of certifying as to nuisances dangerous or injurious to health would be to place them in a position for which they were not qualified. Local authorities would often be involved in difficulties if they had to act on the reports of inspectors having no medical or scientific training in respect of sanitary matters. In many instances local authorities had been misled into trouble and even to the detriment of the public health. The Public Health service of this country had been built up with infinite care and difficulty, and he should be sorry if by legislation any check were given to the advance. He spoke as a medical man, and he spoke unselfishly, for the most unselfish work of the profession was stamping out the diseases by the treatment of which they lived. Medical men were anxious to go on in that course for the benefit of the public. To introduce into administration an Amendment such as that of the Lord Advocate, allowing sanitary inspectors to certify to a nuisance as dangerous or injurious to health, a
    796
    very difficult and delicate subject to deal with, would be to place sanitary inspectors in a position for which they were not competent, and lead to no end of difficulty in the administration of the health service of the country. On the ground of protecting administration, and to keep local authorities out of the difficulties and trouble arising out of action on reports issued upon inadequate knowledge, he believed the best thing to do would be to cut out the reference to sanitary inspectors for this duty for which they had not been trained and which in the present state of the law they were not qualified to perform.
    *MR. HEDDERWICKsaid the unanimity of medical authorities on this point gave rise to suspicion in his mind, and he felt strongly that the Lord Advocate would do well to adhere to his own Amendment. This Bill was intended to improve the sanitary condition and the health of Scotland, and not for the settlement of differences between medical gentleman and sanitary inspectors, and he had not the least doubt that if the Amendment had originally appeared in the Bill, none of this internecine warfare, which he understood from the hon. Baronet was now raging would have arisen. If these words were struck out as was proposed by the hon. Member for Edinburgh University, it would then be in the power of any local authority to proceed by way of action in the Sheriffs' Court, upon some utterly unsatisfactory report of somebody whom nobody knew, but with the Amendment of the Lord Advocate accepted, no proceedings could be taken until the local authority was satisfied upon competent judgment of medical officer or sanitary inspector that there were sufficient grounds to take action.
    DR. CLARKreminded the hon. Member of the words "or otherwise."
    *MR. HEDDERWICKsaid it was not to be supposed that proceedings would be taken except on the certificate of a medical officer or sanitary inspector, the words "or otherwise" being to cover some possible exceptional circumstances. He hoped the Lord Advocate would adhere to his Amendment, and he believed that the irritation excited between medical men and sanitary inspectors would soon abate.
    MR. CALDWELLthought the discussion had reached a point when it was evident that a satisfactory arrangement would be arrived at by the adoption of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Edinburgh University, which had been supported from both sides of the House. The Lord Advocate would not think his dignity infringed upon if he withdrew his Amendment and allowed that of the hon. Member to be moved, upon which there was general agreement.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid all he wanted to do was to please the parties concerned, he had no particular anxiety for his own Amendment. As the other proposal appeared to satisfy the medical profession and the hon. Member for Lanark he was quite willing to accept it. Of course it would be understood that a local authority would satisfy itself by the certificate or by any other way.
    CAPTAIN SINCLAIRdesired a word of congratulation to the Lord Advocate and the House upon the acceptance of a proposal which he urged more than two hours ago.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendments made: Leave out the words "or is certified to them in writing signed by the medical officer or by the sanitary inspector." Leave out the words "since the demand of admission was made or the certificate was given."—(The Lord Advocate.)
    Clause 23,—

    FORM OF INTERLOCUTOR.
    It shall not be necessary to restrict such decree to any special remedy prayed for in the petition, but, as the case shall require, the author of the nuisance or owner or occupier of the premises may be ordained to execute such works or to do or to abstain or cease from doing such acts or things as are necessary to remove the nuisance complained of, in such manner and within such time as in the interlocutor shall be specified; and if the sheriff, magistrate, or justice is of opinion that such or the like nuisance is likely to recur, he may further grant interdict against the recurrence of it, or do otherwise, as the case may in his judgment require; and if the nuisance proved to exist be such as to render a house or building unfit for human habitation or use, he may prohibit such
    798
    habitation or use until in his judgment it is rendered fit there for, and on the sheriff, magistrate, or justice being satisfied that it has been rendered fit for that purpose he may declare the house or building habitable, and from the date thereof such house or building may be let or occupied, or the sheriff, magistrate, or justice may do otherwise as the case may in his judgment require. Provided that where the use of any house or building is so prohibited, the local authority may make to every tenant occupying the same, not being the author of the nuisance, such reasonable allowance on account of his expenses in removing as may have been authorised by the sheriff, magistrate, or justice. which he is hereby empowered to award, and the amount of the said allowance shall be a debt due from the owner of the dwelling horse to the local authority, and shall be recoverable in a summary manner.
    Amendment made: Leave out "in the interlocutor." (Mr. Caldwell.)
    Leave out from the words "judgment require" to the end of the clause.—(The Lord Advocate.)
    Clause 24,—

    PENALTY FOR CONTRAVENTION OF DECREE AND OF INTERDICT.
    If the said decree he not complied with in good and sufficient manner, and within the time appointed, the author of the nuisance, or the owner or occupier, as the case may be, shall be liable, in the case of nuisances under Subsections (1), (2), (3), (4), (5), (7), (10), and (11) in Section sixteen of this Act, to a penalty of not more than ten shillings per day during his failure so to comply; and if the said interdict be knowingly infringed by the act or authority of the owner or occupier, such owner or occupier shall be liable for every such offence to a penalty not exceeding twenty shillings per day during such infringement; and in the case of nuisances under Sub-section (6), (8), and (9) in the said section, the party not complying with or infringing such decree shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding five pounds for the first offence, and not exceeding ten pounds for the second, and for each subsequent conviction a sum double the amount of the penalty in the last preceding conviction, but no penalty shall exceed two hundred pounds: Provided always, in the case of a nuisance under the said Sub-section (9), that if it appears to the sheriff that the best means then known to be available for mitigating the nuisance, or the injurious effects thereof, have not been adopted, he may suspend his final determination upon condition that the author of the nuisance shall undertake to adopt within a definite time such means as be shall judge to be practicable, and order to be carried into effect, for mitigating or preventing such injurious effects.
    Amendment made: After the words "conviction a sum," insert the words "not exceeding."—(Mr. Caldwell.)
    Clause 27,—

    ARTICLES REMOVED TO BE SOLD.
    Any matter or thing removed by the local authority in pursuance of this Act may be sold by public roup, after not less than five days notice by printed handbills posted in the locality, except in cases where delay would be prejudical to health, or in which the matter or thing is not of the value of two pounds or upwards, in which case the sheriff, magistrate, or justice may, by writing under his hand, order the immediate removal, sale, or destruction of the thing, and the proceeds of the sale shall be retained by the local authority, and applied pro tanto in payment of all expenses incurred under this Act with reference to such nuisance; and the surplus, if any, shall be paid, on demand, by the local authority, to the owner of such matter or thing; and the balance of such expenses shall be defrayed, if such proceeds are insufficient for that purpose, by the author of the nuisance or the owner of the premises.
    Amendments made: Leave out "case" and insert "cases."—(Lord Advocate.)
    After "destruction of the" insert "matter or."—(Mr. Caldwell.)
    Clause 28,—

    FOUL DITCHES, ETC. MAY BE REPLACED BY SEWERS.
    Whenever any watercourse, ditch, gutter, or drain along the side of any street, or between or parallel to rows of dwelling houses, shall be used or partly used for the conveyance of any water, sewage, or other liquid or matter from any premises, and cannot in the opinion of the local authority be rendered free from foulness or offensive smell without the laying down of a sewer or of some other structure, such local authority shall and they are hereby required to lay down such sewer or other structure within the limits of their district, or, where necessary for the purpose of outfall or distribution of sewage, without their district, and to keep the same in good and serviceable repair; and they may enter any premises for such purposes, and use such part thereof as shall be necessary, and for such use shall pay such damages as may be assessed by the sheriff on a summary application, and to such party as the sheriff may direct: Provided always, that no damage stall be payable to any person who has caused or contributed to cause such watercourse, ditch, gutter, or drain to become foul or offensive, unless such person shall satisfy the sheriff that he had justifiable excuse for so doing, and such local authority are hereby authorised and empowered to assess the owners of all the premises (according to the yearly value thereof) from which then or at any time thereafter any material other than pure water flows, falls, or is carried into the said sewer or other structure, for payment of all expenses incurred in making and maintaining the same, and that either in one sum or in instalments, as they shall think
    800
    just and reasonable, and after fourteen days' notice at the least left with the said owners, if resident within the district, and if not so resident with the occupiers of the said premises, to levy and collect the sums so assessed, with the same remedies in case of default in payment thereof as are herein-after provided with reference to the public health general assessment leviable under this Act.
    Amendment made: After the words "limits of their district, or "insert "subject to the approval of the Board." (Lord Advocate.)
    Clause 32,—
    OFFENSIVE TRADES — PROHIBITION OR REGULATION OF CERTAIN OFFENSIVE BUSINESSES, AND BYELAWS AS TO OFFENSIVE BUSINESSES.

    (1.) If any person after the commencement of this Act establishes, without the sanction of the local authority, the following businesses, or any of them; that is to say, the business of blood boiler, bone boiler, manure manufacturer, soap boiler, tallow melter, knacker, tanner, tripe boiler, gut or tripe cleaner, skinner or hide factor, slaughterer of cattle or horses, or any other business which the local authority may declare by order confirmed by the Board and published in the Edinburgh Gazette to be an offensive business, he shall be liable to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds in respect of the establishment thereof, and any person carrying on the same after a conviction for the establishment thereof shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding twenty-five pounds for every day during which he so carries on the same:

    (2.) The local authority shall give their sanction by order; but, at least fourteen days before making any such order, shall make public the application for it, by advertising in one or more local newspapers, or by the posting of handbills in the locality, setting forth the time and place at which they will be willing to hear all persons objecting to the order, and they shall consider any objections made at that time and place, and shall grant or withhold their sanction as they think expedient, and where the local authority grants or withholds such sanction, any person aggrieved may appeal to the Board, whose decision shall be final, but, in the case of a district other than a burgh, the appeal to the Board shall only arise after the county council has given its determination on the matter, and a local authority may appeal to the Board against the determination of the county council.

    (3.) The local authority may make byelaws for regulating the conduct of any businesses within the meaning of this section, and of Section thirty-seven of this Act, winch are for the time being lawfully carried on in their district, and the structure of the premises in which any such business is being carried on, in order to prevent or diminish the noxious or injurious effect thereof, and the mode in which time said application is to be made.

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    (4.) Any such byelaw may, in addition to any pecuniary penalty imposed by such byelaw, empower a sheriff by summary order to deprive any person, either temporarily or permanently, of the right of carrying on any business to which such byelaw relates, as a punishment for breaking the same, and any person disobeying such order shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding twenty-five pounds for every day during which such disobedience continues; and the decision of the sheriff under this subsection shall be appealable to the Lord Ordinary on the in manner provided by Section one hundred and fifty-five of this Art.

    (5.) There shall be charged for an order of the local authority under this section, such fee not exceeding forty shillings, as the local authority may fix.

    (6.) For the purposes of this section a business shall be deemed to be established after the commencement of this Act not only if it is established newly, but also if it is removed from any one set of premises to any other premises, or if it is renewed on the same set of premises after having been discontinued for a period of twelve months or upwards, or if any premises on which it is for the time being carried on are enlarged without the sanction of the local authority; but a business shall not be deemed to be established anew on any premises by reason only that the ownership or occupancy of such premises is wholly or partially changed, or that the building in which it is established having been wholly or partially pulled down or burnt down has been reconstructed without any extension of its area.

    Amendment made: In Sub-section (4) leave out "fifty-five" and insert "fifty-six."—(Lord Advocate.)
    MR. BRYCEmoved in Sub-section (6) to leave out "without the sanction of the local authority." He said that these words, if retained, would have the effect of preventing the local authority from having any power of dealing with an offensive trade where carried on in premises which had been enlarged. It might be said that if the premises were enlarged for that purpose, that was equvalent to the sanction of the local authority having been obtained. But the premises might be enlarged without the attention of the local authority being directed to the fact and yet with the intention of carrying on the trade on so large a scale as to amount to a nuisance. He thought it would be better to require that a person who was going to enlarge the premises for that purpose should obtain the sanction of the local authority. If he simply obtained sanction to enlarge, and did not bring to the attention of the local authority the fact that he intended to enlarge his trade, the local authority might be prevented from acting at all.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that if he could be quite certain that all judges would take the same view as his right hon. Friend he would have no objection to the Amendment, but he could not be certain. Therefore he thought that the omission of the words would place the manufacturer in a perilous position. If the premises were enlarged without the sanction of the local authority, it would be a new business, but if they were enlarged with the sanction of the local authority, it would not a new business. It might happen that after giving a sanction to enlarge, the local authority would not sanction the trade. Therefore he thought the Bill was safer as it stood.
    MR. BRYCEsaid his proposition was that a provisional application to enlarge would not be merely au application to enlarge premises, but an application to enlarge for the purpose of carrying on the business; in which case the argument of the Lord Advocate would not apply. However, he would not put the House to the trouble of a Division.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Clause 34,—

    LOCAL AUTHORITIES MAY PROVIDE SLAUGHTER HOUSE.
    The local authority may provide, establish, improve or extend within or without their district, and two or more local authorities may combine to so provide, establish, improve, or extend fit shambles or slaughter houses for the purpose, of slaughtering cattle, and for that purpose may borrow such sums of money as they shall find necessary on the security of the public health general assessment, and of the rates to be taken and levied for the use of such shambles or slaughter houses and ground on Which the same are erected, or on any one or more thereof.
    Amendments made: —After "authority," insert "of any district other than a burgh;" after "extend" insert "and maintain; after "more," insert "such;" after "extend," insert "and maintain;" at end, add "and the provisions of Section 141 of this Act shall, with the necessary modifications, app1y to such borrowing."—(Lord Advocate.)
    Clause 35,—

    POWER FOR LOCAL AUTHORITY TO MAKE BYELAWS AS TO PIGSTYES.
    The local authority may make bye-laws regulating the construction of pigstyes, the

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    places in which they may be erected, and the mode of cleansing them at proper intervals so as to prevent them from becoming a nuisance or dangerous to public health.
    SIR L. LYELLmoved to leave out the Clause. He said this clause was not in the Bill when it first appeared, and he was quite at a loss to understand what motive the Lord Advocate had in inserting it. To his mind it was not a Clause dealing with the public health of human beings. It was a Clause that regulated the public health of pigs. If they were a nuisance they could be summarily dealt with by Clause 16 of the Bill. The best thing that could happen if this Clause were retained, would be that local authorities should disregard it and pass no bye-laws. He thought the Clause entirely unnecessary in the interests of public health.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid this Clause was put in on the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberdeen, and he should leave him to defend his own pigs. He, of course, stuck to the decision of the Committee.
    MR. BRYCEsaid he moved this Clause because he was instructed, by those who had a greater knowledge of sanitary affairs than he could pretend to, and in point of fact pig-styes were a very great nuisance, because they were badly constructed. If they were better constructed it would be possible to prevent them becoming a. nuisance. The Clause was accepted unanimously by the Committee.
    DR. CLARKsaid it was absolutely necessary, under certain conditions, to give local authorities power to prevent pigs becoming a nuisance.
    Amendment negatived.
    Clause 36,—
    DUTY OF LOCAL AUTHORITY TO COMPLAIN TO SHERIFF, ETC., OF NUISANCE ARISING FROM OFFENSIVE TRADE.

    (1.) Where it appears to the local authority upon a certificate by their medical officer m sanitary inspector, or from a representation by a parish council, or on a requisition in writing under the hands of any ten ratepayers within the district that any trade, business, process, or manufacture carried on in any manufactory, building, or premises, and causing effluvia is a nuisance or injurious or dangerous to the health of any of the inhabitants of the district,
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    such authority may, if they think proper, and, if required by the Board shall, apply to the sheriff by summary petition, and if it appears to such sheriff that any trade, business, process, or manufacture carried on in such manufactory, building, or premises is causing a nuisance, or any effluvia which is a nuisance or injurious or dangerous to the health of any of the inhabitants within the district, then, unless it is shown that the best practicable means have been used for removing the nuisance, or preventing or counteracting the effluvia, the author of the nuisance, and failing him the occupier and failing him the owner of the premises, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds.

    (2.) Provided that the court may suspend its final determination on condition that the person so offending undertakes to adopt, within a reasonable time, such means as the court may deem practicable, and may order to be carried into effect, for removing the nuisance, or mitigating or preventing the injurious or dangerous effects of the effluvia.

    (3.) The local authority may, if they think fit, on such certificate as is in this section mentioned, cause to be taken any proceedings in the Court of Session against any person in respect of the matters alleged in such certificate.

    (4.) The local authority may take proceedings under this section in respect of a manufactory, building, or premises situate without their district, so, however, that the summary proceedings shall be had before a sheriff having jurisdiction in the district where the manufactory, building, or premises are situate.

    MR. CALDWELLmoved, in Sub-section (1), to leave out "upon a certificate," and to insert "or it is certified to them in writing." The whole scope of the Bill was that the local authority was to have fall responsibility to institute proceedings, and if it did not institute proceedings it would be called to account by the Local Government Board. This Amendment was simply carrying out what they had done throughout the Bill, which was to place the responsibility of taking proceedings upon the local authority, which could fortify itself either by a certificate of the medical officer or by a representation of the Parish Council, or a requisition by other people.
    MR. RENSHAWsupported the Amendment. It seemed to him a matter of very great importance that the local authority should have full power to act in respect of these matters, and should have the power of taking the initiative in a case of this kind. He considered this matter of the greatest importance to the local authorities.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE, while obliged to his hon. Friend, felt compelled to oppose the Amendment.
    SIR C. CAMERONhoped his hon. Friend would stand by his Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Clause 39,—

    SCAVENGING OF HIGHWAYS, ETC., WITHIN SPECIAL DISTRICTS.
    Where a special scavenging district has been or may hereafter be formed under the provisions of the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1894, the district committee of the district or the county council where the county is not divided into districts, in which such special scavenging district is or may he situated shall, in their discretion, have power to cleanse and scavenge the highways and the footpaths under their management and control within such special scavenging district, or to pay or contribute out of the assessments raised under the Roads and Bridges (Scotland) Act 1878, for a proportion of the cost of cleansing and scavenging such highways and footpaths.
    Where within such special district any private street or footway, or part thereof, is not levelled, macadamised, paved, channelled, and made good to the satisfaction of the district committee (or, where the county is not divided into districts, the county council), such authority may, by notice addressed to the respective owners of the premises fronting, adjoining. or abutting on such street or footway, or parts thereof, as may require to be levelled, macadamised, paved, channelled, and made good, order them to do all such works or any of them, and that within a time to be specified in such notice.
    If such order is not complied with, the said authority may, if they think fit, execute the works mentioned therein, and may recover in a summary manner the expenses incurred by them in so doing from the owners in default according and in proportion to the frontage and valuation of their respective premises or, in the case of dispute, in such proportion as may be settled by the sheriff.
    Provided that it shall be competent to appeal to the sheriff against any such order, and all the provisions of Sub-section one of section one hundred and twenty-one of this Act in regard to an appeal to the sheriff against a resolution of a local authority shall, with the necessary modifications, apply to an appeal against such order.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, in the third paragraph, to leave out the words "and valuation." Nothing could be more absurd than the proposal of the Bill in this particular. In a Public Health Bill they ought not to alter the existing law, which was that a man should pay for such improvements according to frontage and not according to valuation.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid they must take valuation to get at a man's real interest in the street to be improved.
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    A man with a property of little value, but with a large frontage, would otherwise have to pay a large amount; while a man with a valuable property, whose interest in the street, was correspondingly greater, would get off with a small sum.
    Amendment negatived.
    Amendment made: In the last paragraph leave out "twenty-one," and insert "twenty-two."—(The Lord Advocate.)
    Clause 40,—

    HOUSES IN FILTHY STATE TO BE PURIFIED.
    Where it appears to any local authority that any house or part thereof, or any article of bedding or clothing therein, is in such a filthy or unwholesome condition that the health of any person is affected or endangered thereby, or that the whitewashing, cleansing, or purifying of any house or part thereof, or any article of bedding or clothing therein, would tend to prevent or check infectious diseases, the local authority shall give notice in writing to the owner or occupier of such house or part thereof to whitewash, cleanse, or purify the same, or any such article, as the case may require.
    If the person to whom notice is so given fails to comply therewith within the time therein specified, he shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding ten shillings for every day during which he continues to make default; and the local authority may, if they think fit, cause such house or part thereof to be whitewashed, cleansed, or purified, and may recover in a summary manner the expenses incurred by them in so doing from the person in default.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, after the words "Where it appears to any local authority," to insert "on the certificate of the medical officer of health or of any two medical practitioners." Those words were taken from the London Act. Before a sanitary inspector could enter a house in London he must have the certificate of the medical officer of health or of two medical practitioners, that his inspection was necessary in the interest of public health. He thought the same protection against vexatious and unnecessary visits of the sanitary inspector should be given to the people in Scotland.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEthought that sanitary inspector ought to be able to get filthy clothing, cleansed without alt order from a medical officer of health.
    SIR WALTER FOSTER, said he had known small traders to be ruined by the

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    visits of sanitary inspectors in uniform to their houses, and if there was a nuisance they ought to be able to protect themselves by calling in medical evidence, without any public exposure of their condition. Therefore, in the interest of public health, the Amendment—which followed the law as it existed in England —would be an improvement.
    DR. CLARKasked how the local authority would get the information unless it were certified by some one?
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that the information might come through an application or report. Inspectors did not wear uniforms in Scotland.
    Amendment negatived.
    Clause 43,—

    UNSOUND FOOD.—INSPECTION AND DESTRUCTION OF UNSOUND MEAT, ETC.
    (1.) Any medical officer or sanitary inspector or any veterinary surgeon appointed in that behalf by the local authority may at all reasonable times enter any premises within the district of the local authority, or search any cart or vehicle in order to inspect and examine and may inspect and examine

    (a) any animal, alive or dead, intended for the food of man which is exposed for sale, or deposited in any place or is in course of transmission for the purpose of sale, or of preparation for sale; and

    (b) any article, whether solid or liquid, intended for the food of man, and sold or exposed for sale, or deposited in any place or in course or transmission for the purpose of sale or of preparation for sale,

    the proof that the same was not exposed or deposited or in course of transmission for any such purpose, or was not intended for the food of man, resting with the person charged; and if any such animal or article appears to such medical officer or sanitary inspector or veterinary surgeon to be diseased, or unsound, or unfit for the food of man, he may seize and carry away the same himself or by an assistant, in order to have the same dealt with summarily by a sheriff, magistrate, or justice.
    Provided that in the case of any proceeding under this section with regard to a living animal the medical officer or sanitary inspector, sinless he is himself a qualified veterinary surgeon, shall be accompanied by a veterinary inspector or other qualified veterinary surgeon.
    The police force of each area shall have power to search carts or vehicles, and to assist generally in executing and enforcing this section.
    (2.) If it appears to a sheriff, magistrate, or justice, that any animal or article which has been seized or is liable to be seized under this section is diseased, or unsound, or unfit for the food of man, he shall condemn the same, and order it to be destroyed or so disposed of as to prevent it from being exposed for sale or used
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    for the food of man; and the person to whom the same belongs or did belong at the time of sale or exposure for sale, or deposit, or transmission for the purpose of sale, or of preparation for sale, or in whose possession or on whose premises the same was found, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding fifty pounds for every animal or article, or if the article consists of food, vegetables, corn, bread, or flour, for every parcel there if so condemned; or where the proceedings are before a sheriff, at the discretion of the court, if it finds that he has knowingly and wilfully committed the offence, without the infliction of a penalty, to imprisonment for a term of not more than three months with or without hard labour, and also to pay all expenses caused by the seizure, detention, or disposal thereof:
    Provided that the veterinary inspectors appointed by local authorities under the Contagions Diseases (Animals) Act 1878 to 1886, or the veterinary surgeons appointed by local authorities under the first subsection of this section of this Act, shall be bound, when called upon, on receipt of a fee to be fixed by the local authority, to examine and pass or condemn, in whole or in part, animals alive or dead which are sent to any licensed slaughterhouse in the district of such local authority, provided that no animal shall be sent dead for such examination unless it be sent as a whole carcass with lungs, heart, and the lining membranes of the chest and body cavities attached and the other organs all complete, and so disposed that the inspector may be able to satisfy himself that they are the organs of the animal so sent; and the certificate of such inspector passing such animal or portion of an animal shall exempt the owner thereof from the penalties of fine and imprisonment in respect of any complaint regarding the condition of such an animal or portion of an animal at and for a reasonable time after the granting of such certificate.
    (3.) Where it is shown that any animal or article liable to be seized under this section and found in the possession of any person was purchased by him or consigned to him from another person for the food of man, and when so purchased or consigned was in such a condition as to be liable to be seized and condemned under this section, the person who so sold or consigned the same shall be liable to be brought to trial in the district in which such animal or article was seized, and on conviction to the penalty and imprisonment above mentioned, sinless he proves that at the time he sold or consigned the said animal or article he and the person acting on his behalf, if any, did not know and had no reason to believe that it was in such a condition.
    (4.) Where a person convicted of an offence under this section has been within twelve months previously convicted of an offence under this section, the sheriff, magistrate, or justice may, it he thinks fit, and finds that the offender knowingly and wilfully committed both such offences, order that a notice of the facts be affixed, in such form and manner and for such period not exceeding twenty-one days as the sheriff, magistrate, or justice may order to any premises occupied by that person, and that the person do pay the costs of such affixing, and if

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    any person obstructs the affixing of such notice, or removes, defaces, or conceals the notice while affixed during the said period, be shall for each offence be liable to a penalty not exceeding five pounds.
    (5.) If the occupier of a licensed slaughterhouse is convicted of an offence under this section the sheriff, magistrate, or justice convicting him may cancel the licence for such slaughter-house.
    (6.) If any person obstructs an officer in the performance of his duty under any warrant for entry into any premises granted by a sheriff, magistrate, or justice in pursuance of this. Act for the purposes of this section, 1te shall, where the proceedings are before a sheriff, be liable to imprisonment for any term not exceeding one month in lieu of any penalty authorised by this Act for such obstruction.
    (7.) A sheriff, magistrate, or justice, may act in adjudicating, on an offender under this section whether he has or has not acted in ordering the animal or article to be destroyed or disposed of.
    LORD ADVOCATEmoved to leave out the Clause.
    Motion agreed to; Clause struck out.
    Clause 45,—

    INFECTIOUS DISEASES.—POWER TO INSPECT PREMISES WHERE INFECTIOUS DISEASE SUPPOSED To EXIST.
    The medical officer or sanitary inspector, as the case may be, may at reasonable times. in the day time, enter and inspect any house or premises in the district in which he has reason to believe that any infectious disease exists, or has recently existed, and the medical officer may examine any person found on such premises with a view to ascertaining whether such person is suffering, or has recently suffered, from any infectious disease, and in the event of admission, inspection, or examination being refused, the sheriff, or magistrate, or justice may, on reasonable cause shown, grant warrant authorising such entry, inspection, and examination, and on such warrant being obtained and exhibited, any person refusing to admit the medical officer or sanitary inspector, as the case may be. to such house or premises, or obstructing him in making the inspection or examination aforesaid, shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding forty shillings for every such offence.
    CAPTAIN SINCLAIRmoved, to leave out the words "or sanitary inspector as the case may be." He sail that this clause gave power to the medical officer or sanitary inspector to enter a house in which infectious disease was thought to exist. The right of entry ought to he given to the medical officer only.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEresisted the Amendment.
    DR. CLARKsaid that the sanitary inspector could not possibly detect infectious disease. Diagnosis was difficult, even for a medical man.
    SIR WALTER FOSTERthought the Government might add the words "under the direction of the medical officer" after the words "sanitary inspector." The inspector ought to have authority from some person capable of detecting disease before entering private houses. This power ought to be used under judicious rules and regulations, but this clause as It stood was so awkward in its wording that it would lead to difficulties in the administration of the public health.
    MR. CALDWELLsaid the whole purpose of the provision was to ascertain whether disease existed, and the only man competent to form an opinion at all on that question was the medical officer. It would be extremely unfortunate if a sanitary inspector had power by Statute to enter the bed-chamber of a person ill, in order to ascertain whether he was suffering from infectious disease.
    SIR W. PRIESTLEYthought it was rather a strong measure that a sanitary inspector with no medical knowledge should have such power. It would be a violation of the feelings of a great many people to have a sanitary inspector, who might be a plumber or a stonemason, invade their residence to see whether there was a sick person in the house. [Opposition cheers.] He had received a great ninny communications from laymen in Glasgow and elsewhere, who said they would resent at once a sanitary inspector going in, while they would welcome at any time a medical man. ["Hear!"]
    SIR C. CAMERONsuggested that the sanitary inspector should be cut out of the clause or his powers safeguarded by a subsequent Amendment.
    MR. PARKER SMITHremarked that the jealousy which appeared to exist betwen the sanitary inspectors and medical officers would effectually succeed in killing the Bill, and suggested that the House should proceed to more important questions.
    MR. BRYCEprotested against this being considered to be only a question between the medical officer and the sanitary inspector; the question was whether they were to refuse to authorise the sanitary inspector, who had no scientific

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    knowledge, to enter any dwelling except under the order of the medical officer. This was a matter which excited strong public feeling.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he was quite aware that the question had excited great attention. He could only say that he had done his best in the matter, and that he was perfectly willing to leave it an open question for the House to decide upon.
    Question put, "That the word or' stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided:—Ayes, 82; Noes, 110.—(Division List, No. 326.)
    Clause 46,—

    Provision OF MEANS FOR DISINFECTING BEDDING, ETC.
    (1.) Every local authority may, and when required by the Board shall, provide, either within or without their district, proper premises with all necessary apparatus, and attendance for the destruction and for the disinfection, and carriages or vessels for the removal, of articles (whether bedding, clothing, or other) which have become infected by any infectious disease and may provide the same for the destruction, disinfection, and removal of such articles when infected by any other disease; and shall cause any such articles brought for destruction or disinfection, whether alleged to be infected by any infectious disease or by any other disease, to be destroyed or to be disinfected and returned, and may remove, and may destroy, or disinfect and return, such articles free of charge.

    (2.) Any local authorities may execute their duty under this section by combining for the purposes thereof, or by contracting for the use by one of the contracting authorities of any premises, or of any apparatus or appliances provided for the purpose of this section by another of such contracting authorities, and may so combine or contract upon such terms as may be agreed upon.

    Amendment made: In Sub-section (1) leave out the words "and may provide the same for destruction, disinfection, and removal of such articles when infected by any other disease.—(Lord Advocate.)
    Clause 47,—

    CLEANSING AND DISINFECTING OF PREMISES, ETC.
    (1.) Where it appears to the local authority upon the certificate of the medical officer or any other legally qualified medical practitioner, that the cleansing and disinfecting of any house, or part thereof, and of any articles
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    therein likely to retain infection, or the destruction of such articles, would tend to prevent or check any infectious disease, the local authority may serve notice on the occupier, or where the house or part thereof is unoccupied on the owner, of such house or part thereof that the same and any such articles therein will be cleansed and disinfected or (as regards the articles) destroyed, by the local authority, unless the person so notified informs the local authority within a time to be specified in the notice from the receipt of the said notice that he will cleanse and disinfect the house or part thereof, and any such articles, or destroy such articles, to the satisfaction of the medical officer, or of any other legally qualified medical practitioner, as testified by certificate by him, within a time fixed in the notice.

    (2.) If either—

    (a) within the time specified as aforesaid from the receipt of the notice, the person on whom the notice is served does not inform the local authority as aforesaid; or

    (b) having so informed the local authority, he fails to have the house or past thereof and any such articles disinfected or such articles destroyed as aforesaid within the time fixed in the notice; or

    (c) the occupier or owner, as the case may be, without such notice gives his consent; the house, or part thereof, and articles, shall be cleansed and disinfected, or such articles destroyed by the officers of, and at the cost of, the local authority.

    (3.) For the purpose of carrying into effect this section the local authority may enter by day on any premises.

    (4.) If the local authority deem it necessary to remove from any house or part thereof, or from any tenement of houses, all or any of the residents not being themselves sick, on account of the existence or recent existence therein of infectious disease, or for the purpose of disinfecting such house or part thereof, or such tenement or part thereof, they may make application to a sheriff, magistrate, or justice, and the sheriff, magistrate, or justice, if satisfied of the necessity of such removal, may grant a warrant authorising the local authority to remove such residents, and imposing such conditions as to time and otherwise as to him may seem fit. Provided always that no such warrant shall be necessary when the removal is carried out with the consent of any such resident or his parent or guardian. The local authority shall, and they are hereby empowered, to provide temporary shelter or house accommodation, and, if necessary, maintenance with any necessary attendants, free of charge, for such persons while prevented from returning to such house or part thereof or such tenement or part thereof.

    (5.) When the local authority have disinfected any house, part of a house, or any article, under the provisions of this section, they shall compensate the occupier or owner of such house, or part of a house, or the owner of such article, for any unnecessary damage thereby caused to such house, part of a house, or article; and when the authority destroy any article under this section they shall compensate the owner thereof; and the

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    amount of any such compensation shall be recoverable in a summary manner.

    For the purpose of this section the word "house" includes any ship lying in any sea, river, harbour, or other water or ex adverso of any place within the limits of the local authority.
    MR. BRYCEmoved in Sub-section (1) to leave out, "or of any other legally qualified medical practitioner." The cleansing of houses should be carried out subject to the satisfaction of the medical officer of health. The method of disinfection had been greatly improved, and disinfection in its various branches was outside the knowledge of the ordinary medical practitioner.
    MR. CALDWELLsaid it was to the interest of the patient's family that disease should not be spread, and disinfection might safely be left to the doctor in attendance. Private persons had a great objection to medical officers entering their houses unnecessarily.
    Amendment agreed to.
    SIR T. D. GIBSON CARMICHAELmoved, in Sub-section (2), paragraph (c), to leave out "and at the cost of." The words he proposed to omit were unnecessary. If people could perfectly well afford to pay for having their goods disinfected, they should do so.
    MR. CALDWELLsaid here again the words were taken from the Public Health (London) Act. The point was carefully considered by the Standing Committee. It was felt better to make a uniform rule that these things were to be (lone at the public expense, because it was in the public interest as well as in the interest of the private individual to prevent the spread of disease.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Amendment made: In Sub-section (5), before "compensate," insert "reasonably."—(Lord Advocate.)
    MR. BRYCEmoved, after the words "includes any," to insert "tent or van, or any."
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEaccepted the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause 48,—

    DISINFECTION OF BEDDING, ETC.
    (1.) Any local authority may serve a notice on the owner of any bedding, clothing, or other articles which have been exposed to the infection of any infectious disease, respiring the delivery thereof to an officer of the local authority for removal for the purpose of destruction or disinfection; and if any person fails to comply with such notice he shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding ten pounds.

    (2.) The bedding, clothing, and articles if so disinfected by the local authority, shall be brought bark and delivered to the Owner free of charge, and if any of them suffer any unnecessary damage, the authority shall compensate the owner for the same, and the authority 3 ball also compensate the owner for any articles destroyed; and the amount of compensation shall be recoverable in a summary manner.

    Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), before "compensate," insert "reasonably."—(Lord Advocate.)
    Clause 53,—
    PENALTY ON CEASING TO OCCUPY HOUSE WITHOUT DISINFECTION OR NOTICE TO OWNER, OR MAKING FALSE ANSWER.
    (1.) Where a person ceases to occupy any house, or part of a house, in which any person has within six weeks previously been suffering from any infectious disease, and either—

    (a) fails to have such house, or part of a house, and all articles therein liable to retain infection, disinfected to the satisfaction of a medical officer, as testified by a certificate signed by him, or such articles destroyed; or

    (b) fails to give to the owner or occupier f such house, or part of a house, notice of the previous existence of such disease; or

    (c) on being questioned by the owner or occupier of, or by any person negotiating for the hire of, such house or part of a house, as to the fact of there having within six weeks previously been therein any person suffering from any infectious disease, knowingly snakes a false answer to such question,

    he shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding twenty pounds.
    (2.) The local authority shall cause their officers to serve notice of the provisions of this section on the occupier of any house or part of a house in which they are aware that there is a person suffering from an infectious disease.
    Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (a), leave out "a" ["a medical officer"], and insert "the."—(Lord Advocate.)
    Clause 58,—

    PROHIBITIONS ON INFECTED PERSON CARRYING ON BUSINESS.
    No person suffering from an infectious disease, or who is livng in an infected house, shall milk any animal or pick fruit, or shall engage in any occupation connected with food, or carry on any trade or business in such a manner as to be likely to spread such disease, and any person who contravenes this section shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding ten pounds.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, after "who," to insert "knowing himself to be suffering from any infectious disease." He observed that the London Act provided that the penalty should only be enacted where a man knew himself to be suffering from the disease, and then did the acts set forth in the clause.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEintimated that he would accept the Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Clause 60,—

    INSPECTION OF DAIRIES AND POWER TO PROHIBIT SUPPLY OF MILK.
    (1.) If the medical officer of any district has evidence that any person in the district is suffering from an infectious disease attributable to milk supplied within the district from any dairy situate within the district, or that the milk from any such dairy is likely to cause any such disease to any person residing in the district, such medical officer shall visit such dairy, and the medical officer shall examine the dairy and every person engaged in the service thereof or resident upon the premises, or who may be resident in any premises where any person employed in such dairy may reside, and if accompanied by a veterinary inspector or some other properly qualified veterinary surgeon, shall examine the animals therein, and the medical officer forthwith report the results of his examination, accompanied by the report of the veterinary inspector or surgeon, if any, to the local authority or any committee of the local authority appointed under section fourteen to deal with such matters.
    (2.) If the medical officer of any district has evidence that any person in the district is suffering from any infectious disease attributable to milk from any dairy without the district, or that the milk from any such dairy is likely to cause any such disease to any person residing in the district, such medical officer shall forthwith intimate the same to the local authority of the district in which such dairy is situate, and such other local authority shall be bound, forthwith, by its medical officer, to examine the dairy and the persons aforesaid, and by a vetereinary inspector or other properly qualified veterinary surgeon to examine
    816
    the animals therein, previous notice of the time of such examination having been given to the local authority of the first-mentioned district, in order that the medical officer or any veterinary inspector or surgeon appointed by such authority may, if they so desire, be present at the examinations referred to, and the medical officer of the second-mentioned local authority shall forthwith report the results of his examination, accompanied by the report of the veterinary inspector or surgeon, if any, to that local authority or any committee of that local authority appointed under Section fourteen of this Act to deal with such matters.
    (3.) The local authority of the district in which the dairy is situated, or any committee appointed for the purpose, shall meet as soon as practicable and consider the reports together with any other evidence that may be submitted by parties concerned, and shall either make an order requiring the dairyman not to supply any milk from the dairy until the order has been withdrawn by the local authority, or resolve that no such order is necessary.
    (4.) Where proceedings are taken or any ender is made under this section by the local authority of a district other than a burgh, it shall not be competent to appeal against the said proceedings or against the said order to the county council.
    (5.) The local authority may, if the dairy is within the district, require the dairyman not to supply milk either within or without the district, and shall give notice of the fact to the local authority of any district within which they believe milk to be supplied from such dairy.
    (6.) Any such order shall be forthwith, withdrawn on the local authority, or their medical officer on their behalf, being satisfied that the consumption of milk from the dairy is no longer likely to cause infectious disease.
    (7.) It shall be open to any local authority or dairyman aggrieved by any such resolution or order, or withdrawal of order, to appeal in a summary manner to a sheriff having jurisdiction in the district in which the dairy is situated, and the sheriff may either make an order requiring the dairyman to cease from supplying milk, or may vary or rescind any order which has been made by the local authority, and he may at any time withdraw any order made under this section. Pending the disposal of any such appeal the order shall remain in force.
    (8.) If any person refuse to permit the medical officer or veterinary inspector of the local authority of the district, or of another district concerned, accompanying such medical officer or veterinary inspector, duly authorised by a warrant from a sheriff, magistrate, or justice of the peace having jurisdiction in the district in which the dairy is situate, to make examination as above provided, or, after any order has been made under this section, supplies milk in contravention of the order, he shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding ten pounds, and, if the offence continues, to a further penalty not exceeding five pounds for every day during which the offence continues.
    (9.) Provided that—

    (a) proceedings in respect of the offence shall be taken before a sheriff having

    817
    jurisdiction in the place where the dairy is situate; and

    (b) a dairyman shall not be liable to an action for breach of contract if the breach be due to an order under this section.

    10. Nothing in or done under this section shall interfere with the operation or effect of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Acts 1878 to 1886, or of any order, licence, or act of the Privy Council or the Board thereunder, or of any regulation, licence, or act of a local authority made; granted, or done under any such order of the Privy Council or the Board, or exempt any dairy, building, or thing, or any person from the provisions of any general Act relating to dairies, milk, or animals.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, in Sub-section (1) after "within," to insert "or without." He observed that the acceptance of this and the subsequent Amendment would put the Bill back into the position in which it was introduced by the Government, and' supported by the Lord Advocate and Solicitor General for Ireland in the-Standing Committee. The Bill as it now stood embodied the decision arrived at by the Standing Committee, and he had no doubt the Lord Advocate would tell them that he had been endeavouring to give effect to the decisions of the Standing Committee. But he had not done so, for he had already taken out of the Bill a clause which was agreed to by such Committee. Therefore, they were in the position that this question was as open for reconsideration as were other questions where he had reversed the decision of the Committee. By the clause as originally introduced the law of Scotland in regard to an infected milk supply was placed on the same footing as the English law. It was provided that, when it was ascertained that an infectious disease existed in a burgh and that the disease originated in a milk supply coming from the outside, the local authority could issue an order to prevent the milk from coming into the burgh. This was a most necessary power, and no one could maintain that a town ought not to be able to protect itself in this way. The provision was supported both by the Lord Advocate and the Solicitor General. He moved the first of the Amendments of which he had given notice, the others being consequential.
    MR. CALDWELLproposed, in Sub-section (1), after "within," to insert the words "or without."
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid this was the clause which, certainly as much as any other, excited the general attention of the Committee. The hon. Member was perfectly right in saying that the clause was not in the Bill originally, but on the other hand, it was made clear that the Government desired the Committee to take its own view, and would be satisfied with the decision. The whole question was what should be done when a burgh was suffering from the existence of an infectious disease arising from, the causes outside its own territory. The whole point of the discussion raised was whether the burgh's authority should go into the outside territory and by their own officer make inspection of suspected premises. For the county authority, it was urged that this would be an interference with their jurisdiction, and that it would be better to make representation, and that the executive action should be through the local authority. The matter was fully discussed in Committee, and the clause was carried by 19 votes to 11. He felt himself bound to uphold the decision of the Committee, and he should therefore vote against the Amendment, though it was perfectly true that in Committee he voted in favour of the Bill as it originally stood. But hon. Members would bear him out when he said that to-night he had not endeavoured to reverse the decisions of the Committee, only in cases where there were narrow divisions in Committee, he had allowed the House to settle the question untrammelled. In this instance there was a considerable majority, and he thought, as a matter of good faith, he ought to uphold the decision of the Committee.
    MR. DALZIELwas exceedingly sorry to find the Lord Advocate taking this line, because this was a question that had excited a very great deal of public interest throughout Scotland. There had been cases of deaths from the consumption of infected milk in Dumfriesshire, half-a-dozen people having died through the sale of milk from an infected dairy; and again, in his own constituency, 12 persons had died from a similar cause. The Lord Advocate was taking a very great responsibility in refusing to give additional powers for dealing with matters of this kind, when he knew how

    819
    strong was the demand that local authorities should have such powers. In a circular just issued Mr. Littlejohn, of Edinburgh, dealt with cases such as he had referred to. He was a high authority, and his experience amounted to this, that the law was insufficient to deal with such questions, and he gave approval of an Amendment on the lines of that proposed by his hon. Friend. Something ought to be done, he did not care whether by this Amendment or that of the hon. Member for West Edinburgh. Probably the latter would better meet the case. What was desired was that the local authorities should not be powerless where they knew that milk was being supplied which was spreading infectious disease. Surely this was a power which ought to be given to the local authorities under a Public' Health Bill, and he thought the Bill would fall short of what was hoped from it if it did not confer that power. He was sorry the Lord Advocate should be content to leave the law as it was.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATE: The clause goes beyond the present law.
    MR. DALZIELsaid that the milk came into the burgh from the county, and if the burgh authority had no power to move in the county, there was no protection against this spread of disease. He was exceedingly sorry the Lord Advocate did not see his way to compromise in the matter and meet the demand that existed.
    MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid there were on both sides of the House not a few Gentlemen who desired some reform in this matter on the lines suggested in the Amendment of the hon. Member for West Edinburgh. He hoped the Vote on the Amendment now before the House would not preclude a discussion on that of the hon. Member for West Edinburgh.
    SIR, L. McIVERsaid the objection to this Amendment was rather based on the conflicting of local authorities. It was felt, and no doubt with reason, that the overlapping of authorities led to friction; but what was far more important was that it led to delay. What was required was that there should be in reserve a power of immediate and summary action, and that was not likely to be obtained when there was friction between the local authorities. He hoped he would be able to convince the Lord
    820
    advocate that the Amendment he was about to move would meet the question better than that of the hon. Member for Mid Lanark.
    MR. BRYCEsaid that this was one of the most important questions in connection with the Bill. It was perfectly true, as the Lord Advocate had said, that he was adhering to the decision of the Committee; but the majority on the point was not large. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would leave the matter to the House, and not make it a Government matter. He hoped that if the Lord Advocate could not accept this Amendment he would accept that of the hon. Member for West Edinburgh.
    MR. RENSHAWwas glad to hear the Lord Advocate express his intention of adhering to the clause in the Bill. It seemed to be much more workable than the one which was in the Bill originally. Whereas under the Bill as originally introduced they would have a cumbrous procedure, by which the local authority in a burgh would have had to go to the sheriff to get authority to go into a dairy and then take proceedings, the local authority of a particular area could proceed upon information that reached them, and could act properly and sufficiently. He thought the clause as it stood in the Biil was eminently workable, and it was one which the rural authorities were willing to work under. He was perfectly certain that the right way to secure the best interests of county districts and burghs alike, and of the population of burghs especially, was that they should put the responsibility upon the local authority within whose area the dairy was situated.
    DR. CLARKsaid what they wanted was power to stop the danger, and he trusted that the Lord Advocate would not permit any obstacle to be raised so as to interfere with what was for the public safety.
    SIR J. FERGUSSONdoubted whether it was true, as had been alleged, that a large quantity of milk supplied to London came from Scotland.
    Question put, "That the words `or without' be there inserted."
    The House divided: —Ayes, 31; Noes, 127.—(Division List, No. 327.)

    821
    Amendments made: In Sub-section (3) leave out "as soon as practicable," and insert "forthwith." In Sub-section (6) leave out "consumption of."—(Lord Advocate.)
    In Sub-section (8) leave out "refuse," and insert "refuses." In Sub-section (8) leave out the words "duly authorised by a warrant from a sheriff, magistrate, or justice of the peace having jurisdiction in the district in which the dairy is situate."—(Mr. Caldwell.)
    SIR LEWIS McIVERmoved at end of Sub-section (9) to insert—
    (c) The medical officer of any district, or the local authority, may in any case in which such medical officer considers it necessary or expedient for preventing the spread of infectious disease, apply summarily to the sheriff, or to a magistrate, or justice of the peace, for a summary warrant or order to stop the sale of any milk which such medical officer may deem it necessary or expedient to stop to prevent the spread of infectious disease, and the sheriff, or magistrate, or justice of the peace, as the case may be, may without previous intimation grant a warrant or order accordingly, and the local authority shall pay the value of the milk so stopped if it should be afterwards found that the same was free from infection."
    He claimed that this did not alter the clause as it stood, but was supplementary to it, and that it afforded in addition a prompt and summary proceeding in cases of dire necessity. The point of the Amendment was that it went for the milk itself rather than for the inspection of premises and animals. In case of violent outbreak of disease, such as scarlet fever, there should be a power to promptly interfere with the sale of milk from the dairy to which that disease had been traced. There had been in his own constituency a case of fifteen deaths traced to two deliveries of milk from one dairy. According to the clause as drafted, it would take from four to seven days to get the procedure to work. What they wanted was a procedure that would deal with the outbreak in so many hours. ["Hear, hear!"] This Amendment did not involve any conflict or friction between the different local authorities. He suggested a permissory authority given for purposes of extreme emergency, which a trained' medical officer of health could alone judge of, and the reponsibility would rest with his local authority. There was no mandatory direction proposed, and the Amendment did not run counter to any of the propositions in the clause.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEwas sorry that his hon. Friend did not introduce this Amendment in the Committee, so that it might have been discussed there. But he could not accept it as it stood. It did not say what sheriff they should apply to, and it left the position doubtful as to the local authority. Besides, it allowed the medical officer and the local authority to interfere with the proceedings in the district of another locality; in fact they could go to the sheriff and make an ex parte application. This was rather a strong measure. They should bear in mind the effect it would have in inflicting a greater injury than a loss in the sale of milk, because the knowledge that disease existed, if spread about, might lead to the ruin of a man's business. He invited his hon. Friend to reconsider the matter, and draw up an Amendment setting this matter right. It could be moved for him in another place where the whole question would be considered, and where they were not, as he was, trammelled to support the decision of the Committee.
    DR. CAMERONasked whether there was no hardship imposed in having this power of self-protection taken from Scottish towns? It was very doubtful whether the special powers of the Glasgow Police Act would not be overridden by this Act outside the boundary of Glasgow. If they could be assured that there was no doubt that their powers of self-protection remained undiminished, that, of course would take away what seemed to be the danger of the clause, as it now stood, without some such Amendment as that proposed. But in any case, apart from the case of the big towns that were protected by their own Police Acts, it appeared to him that there was a necessity for some more speedy machinery than that contained in the clause; and that would be provided, if not in the most perfect form, by the proposal of the hon. Baronet opposite, at any rate in a form which might be made perfect. If the Lord Advocate approved of the principle of granting more perfect protection, his course would be to accept the Amendment and incorporate it in the Bill, and in another place he could secure the necessary modification to put it in a state in which it would be perfect and consistent with other sections.
    SIR T. D. GIBSON-CARMICHAELsupported the Amendment. It might not be perfectly drafted, but he quite believed that the Lord Advocate could make it much better if he tried. Though he represented a county constituency and had no interest in any borough, thought it a most important question for he knew from experience of places where milk was supplied to boroughs, that there was a great difficulty in stopping the importation of suspected milk into a place in which infectious disease had broken out. They could not act too promptly in such cases, and he felt that something in this line was certainly necessary, and he appealed to the Lord Advocate to accept the Amendment, and undertake to put it in workable form.
    MR. DALZIELhoped the hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment and put it in order in the House of Lords. At the same time the House must recognise that the right hon. Gentleman had shown a disposition to meet the views some of them held in favour of amendment; and he should prefer not to have a decision by the House which would close the matter altogether, but would rather trust themselves in the hands of the Lord Advocate and see if such an Amendment as the right hon. Gentleman had suggested could not be moved in another place.
    DR. FARQUHARSONsaid he had great sympathy with the Amendment of the hon. Baronet. The machinery in the Bill for meeting emergencies which frequently occurred in connection with epidemic disease caused by milk was slow, tedious and cumbrous; and the hon. Baronet had argued very forcibly indeed in favour of some more rapid action to check epidemic disease. But he was bound to say that the Lord Advocate had hit on a blot in the Amendment, and it had also occurred to himself. No doubt the money compensation proposed would hardly meet the loss of prestige, that a farmer or dairyman must suffer from having his business stopped summarily. That was a drawback; but perhaps some wider scheme might be eventually proposed to meet this difficulty. At all events, the national advantage might be sufficiently great to counterbalance any drawback or difficulty of that kind, and if a division were taken he
    824
    should certainly support his hon. Friend in the Lobby.
    SIR WALTER FOSTERhoped the Lord Advocate would find some way to accept the principle of the Amendment. ["Hear, hear!"] It commended itself to him in this—that it struck directly at the offending article and prevented its sale not only in the locality in which the disease had appeared but in any other locality. For instance, they might have disease spread from the suburb of a town to the neighbouring county. Under this clause, as the hon. Baronet proposed to amend it, they would be able to go to the dairy and stop the sale altogether. Under present circumstances if they stopped the sale only in a town where the disease was found to have broken out, the farmer might send his milk to another town and spread the disease there. They had, therefore, the evil absolutely unchecked, and extended to many places rather than confined to one. One of the ways of checking the spread of diseases among young people was to go to the sources of the milk supply. This Amendment gave a summary and rapid method of doing that. It might be the means of saving the lives of scores of families, and they ought not to regard the losses of an individual as a barrier to doing a beneficent piece of legislation. He hoped the Lord Advocate would show a willingness to accept the principle of the Amendment, and promise to draft some Amendment in another place which would carry out that principle.
    MR. RENSHAWpointed out that in the clause they had passed they had practically given a very strong power indeed to the local authority in which the dairy was situated. The words of the third and fifth sub-sections really covered everything that was required, and to introduce this Amendment would only confuse the issue, and make it more difficult to the local authority to administer the law.
    DR. CLARKobserved that some of the five towns that were outside the Burgh Police Act had got this power already. Glasgow and Edinburgh had it as well as London, and the chief towns of England. He understood the hon. Baronet wished to limit this to the district and not go outside. For instance, he merely desired to go to the sheriff of the town—and not to the county

    825
    where the milk had come from—and prevent the sale in the burgh. He thought that the best course to take would be to adjourn now, so that the Lord Advocate and the hon. Baronet the Member for West Edinburgh might have an opportunity, before the Bill was proceeded with further, of coming to an agreement as to the form which the Amendment should take. He begged to moved the Adjournment of the Debate.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that after this question had been disposed of, the Amendments on the clauses up to Clause 145 need not occupy considerable time. When they had got that far he would consent to the adjournment of the Debate. He hoped the hon. Member would withdraw his Motion. If the hon. Member for West Edinburgh would recast his clause in the light of the criticisms which had been passed upon it, he would undertake that it would receive consideration entirely upon its merits in the House of Lords.
    Motion for adjournment, by leave, withdrawn.
    SIR L. McIVERsaid he was quite ready to recognise the general sense of the House, and would be content if the principle of the Amendment were accepted in some form. He pointed out that his proposal was distinct from the other, it would grant a power to be held in reserve.
    MR. CALDWELLdesired to remove any misconception. He desired simply that burghs should have the power to protect themselves from infection from outside, as from infection being spread inside. There was no desire to interfere with authority outside the burgh boundary. Surely he desired that the burgh authority should have power to prevent the supply of infected milk without going through the circumlocutory process of going to another authority what might or might, not take action. In that view, he hoped the Lord Advocate would consider the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved to omit the end of the clause. The local sanitary authority was different from the tramway authority, and he thought the matter of overcrowding in public conveyances was outside the scope of the work of
    826
    local authorities in matters of sanitation; it should be dealt with in another way.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid this clause was inserted by the Committee, and he thought he ought to adhere to it.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Clause 65,—

    BYE-LAWS AS TO PUBLIC CONVEYANCES.
    The local authority may make bye-laws for securing the cleanliness and sanitary condition of public conveyances plying within its district, and for preventing overcrowding in such conveyances.
    Amendment made: Leave out the words "and for preventing overcrowding in such conveyances."
    Clause 66,—

    POWER OF LOCAL AUTHORITY TO PROVIDE HOSPITALS.
    (1.) Any local authority may, and if required by the Board shall, provide, furnish, and maintain for the use of inhabitants of their district suffering from infections disease, hospitals, temporary or permanent, and houses of reception for convalescents from infections diseases, or for persons who have been exposed to infection, and for that purpose may—

    (a) themselves build such hospitals or houses; or

    (b) contract for the use of any such hospital or house or part thereof; or

    (c) enter into any agreement with any person having the management of any such hospital or house or part thereof on payment of such annual or other stun as may be agreed on;

    (d) any local authority, with the consent of the Board, may also, or in place of providing such hospitals or houses as aforesaid, employ trained nurses to attend the sick in their own houses, and also supply medicines and medical attendance for such sick.

    (2.) Two or more local authorities may, and if required by the Board shall, combine in providing and maintaining a common hospital or house of reception, or in employing trained nurses on terms to be agreed on, and failing agreement to be fixed by the Board, whose determination shall be final and binding.

    (3.) No contract for the use of any such hospital or house or part thereof shall be entered into without the consent of the Board, and no such hospital or house of reception be provided unless and until the, site and plans for the construction thereof have been approved of by the Board. Provided always that such site shall he in or within a convenient distance of the district of the local authority, or, in the case of a combination in terms of this section, in or within a convenient distance of the combined district.

    827

    (4.) A local authority may, with the sanction and subject to regulations made by the Board, provide and maintain one or more portable hospitals for the use of their district.

    Amendments made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (d), leave out "sick," and insert "persons suffering from infectious disease"; leave out "trained," after "providing," and insert "furnishing."
    MR. CALDWELLmoved, in Sub-section (2) to leave out "trained."
    DR. TANNERasked why the word should be left out?
    *MR. SPEAKER: Perhaps the hon. Member is not aware that this is a consequential Amendment, the word having been left out in the earlier part of the clause.
    Amendment agreed to.
    Amendment made: In Sub-section (2), leave out "final and."
    Clause 67,—

    PROVISION OF CONVEYANCE FOR INFECTED PERSONS.
    A local authority may provide and maintain carriages suitable for the conveyance of persons suffering from any infections disease, and pay-the expense of conveying therein any person so suffering to a hospital or other place of destination.
    Amendment made: After "maintain," insert "or may combine with one or more local authorities in providing and maintaining."
    Clause 69,—

    POWER OF SHERIFF IN CERTAIN CASES TO ORDER REMOVAL OF DEAD BODY TO MORTUARY.
    (1.) Where either—

    (a) the body of a person who has died of any infectious disease is retained in a room in which persons live or sleep; or

    (b) the body of a person who has died of any infectious disease is retained without the sanction in writing of the medical officer or any legally qualified medical practitioner for more than forty-eight hours, elsewhere than in a room not used at the time as a dwelling-place, sleeping-place, or workroom; or

    (c) any dead body is retained in any house or room or ship under circumstances which, if continued, may endanger the health of the inmates thereof, or of any adjoining or neghbouring house or building or

    (d) any dead body found within the district is unclaimed or no sufficient person undertakes to bury it,

    a sheriff, magistrate, or justice may on a certificate signal by a medical officer or other
    828
    legally qualified medical practitioner, direct that the body be removed, at the cost of the local authority, to any available mortuary, and be buried within the time limited by the sheriff, magistrate, or justice; and may, if it is the body of a person who has died of an infectious disease, or if he considers immediate burial necessary, direct that the body be buried immediately, without removal to the mortuary.
    (2·) Unless the friends or relations of the deceased undertake to bury and do bury the body within the time so limited, it shall be the duty of the local authority to bury such body, and any expense so incurred may be recovered by them in a summary manner from any person legally liable to pay the expenses of such burial.
    (3.) It shall not be lawful to transport the body of any person who has died of any infectious disease by railway or other public conveyance not being a conveyance reserved for such purpose, unless and until the medical officer has certified that every precaution necessary for the public saifety has been adopted to his satisfaction, and any undertaker or other person who shall without such certificate knowingly remove or assist in - removing, and any person who shall procure or endeavour to procure the removal of, such dead body without having obtained such certificate shall be liable to the penalty hereinafter mentioned in this section.
    (4.) If any person obstructs the execution of any direction given by a sheriff, magistrate, or justice under this section, he shall be liable to a penalty not exceeding five pounds.
    MR. CALDWELLmoved to leave out paragraph (d) in Sub-section (1). He said the object was to avoid the necessity of getting a Sheriff's Order for the burial of a dead body. A body might be washed ashore, and in such a case it would be very inconvenient to have to get the warrant of the Sheriff to bury it.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEdid not think it would be wise to accept this Amendment. He did not think it must be assumed that unclaimed dead bodies should be just put under ground without any authority from some judicial person. There might be cases where foul play had happened, and if there was not to be a warrant, a body might be buried and got out of the way before anything was known about it. He thought the wise course in these cases was, to insist on the warrant of a, magistrate or sheriff.
    DR. CLARKthought the Amendment was intended to cover cases which often happened in the Highlands and islands. Dead bodies were often thrown up on the west and north coasts, and, it might be, in places where they were very far from

    829
    any magistrate, or sheriff, or justice. In those cases it would be very difficult to carry out any of these forms.
    MR. CALDWELL MR. CALDWELL asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment made: After "officer," insert "or other legally qualified medical practitioner."
    Clause 72,—
    BYE-LAWS AS TO HOUSES LET IN LODGINGS. POWER OF LOCAL AUTHORITIES TO MAKE BYE-LAWS AS TO LODGING HOUSES.
    (1.) Every local authority may, and if required by the Board shall, make and enforce for the whole or any part of their district such bye-laws as are requisite for the following matters; (that is to say),

    (a) for fixing the number of persons who may occupy a house or part of a house which is let in lodgings or occupied by members of more than one fancily;

    (b) for the registration of houses so let or occupied:

    (c) for the inspection of such houses:

    (d) for enforcing sufficient privy or water-closet accommodation and other appliances and means of cleanliness in proportion to the number of lodgers or occupiers, drainage for such houses and for promoting cleanliness, light, and ventilation in such houses, and for the cleansing and ventilation of the common passages and staircases:

    (e) for the cleansing and limewashing at stated times of the premises:

    (f) for the giving of notices and the taking of precautions in case of any infectious disease.

    (2.) This section shall not apply to common lodging-houses within the provisions of this Act relating to common lodging-houses, but shall apply to farmed-out houses, that is to say, to houses of one or two apartments taken on lease by any person, and let or rented to several occupiers for limited periods as furnished apartments, as also to all boarding-houses for seamen and emigrants, irrespective of the charge made for the board and lodging therein.
    Amendment made: In Sub-section (1), paragraph (d), leave out "light."
    Clause 74,—

    RULES AS TO UNDERGROUND DWELLINGS.
    It shall not be lawful to let separately, except as a warehouse or storehouse, or to suffer to be occupied as a dwelling place, any cellar whatsoever or any vault or underground room, whether conjoined or not with another apartment not having one of its external sides entirely above the level of the street or ground adjoining the same, and not having a window or other opening in such side, which cellar, vault, or room in every part shall lie less in height from the floor to the ceiling, than eight
    830
    feet in the case of houses built prior to the commencement of this Act, or less in height than nine feet in the case of houses built subsequently to the commencement of this Act, or which shall be less than one-third of its height above the level of the street or ground adjoining the same, or otherwise shall not have three feet at least of its height from the floor to the ceiling above the said level, with an open area of two feet six inches wide from the level of the floor of such cellar, vault, or room up to the level of the said street or ground, or winch shall not have appurtenant thereto the use of a water-closet or earth-closet or privy and ashpit, or which shall not also have a glazed window made to open to the full extent of the half thereof, the area of which is not less than nine superficial feet clear of the frame, and a fireplace with a chimney or flue, or which cellar, vault, or underground room, being an inner or back vault or cellar let or occupied along with a front vault or room as part of the same letting or occupation, has not a ventilating flue (unless such inner or back vault or room shall be part of a house built before the commencement of this Act) or which shall not be well and effectually drained by means of a drain, constructed of a gas-tight pipe or otherwise effectually sealed, the uppermost part of which is one foot at least below the level of the floor of such vault, cellar, or room, after the local authority have given notice to the owners thereof that the letting or occupation of such cellars, vaults, or underground rooms as dwelling places is prohibited from that time forth, and it shall be the duty of the local authority to issue such notices from time to time, as soon as is convenient, until such notice has been given with respect to every cellar, vault, or underground room occupied as a dwelling-house within the district; and it shall not be lawful, after such notice, to let or continue to let, or to occupy or suffer to be occupied separately as a dwelling-house any such vault, cellar, or underground room.
    Amendment made: Leave out "whatsoever": leave out "room" ["back vault or room"], and insert "cellar."
    Clause 81,—

    LOCAL AUTHORITY TO SEE TO THE EXE CUTION OF REGULATIONS.
    The local authority of any district within which or part of which regulations so issued by the Board are declared to be in force, shall superintend and see to the execution thereof, and shall appoint and pay such medical or other officers or persons, and do and provide all such acts, matters, and things as may be necessary for mitigating any such disease, or for superintending or aiding in the execution of such regulations, or fur executing the same, as the case may require. Moreover, the local authority may from time to time direct any prosecution or legal proceedings for or in respect of the wilful violation or neglect of any such regulations.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved to leave out from "require" to the end of the clause.
    MR. CALDWELLcontended that the present law was that the licence of a common lodging-house keeper was not to be withdrawn unless there was evidence that he had infringed any of the regulations in regard to common lodging-houses; and it was most unfair that a man, after he had spent a large amount of money in fitting up a lodging-house, should be compelled to go every year before the sanitary authority for the renewal of his license.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid the Committee was unanimous in favour of the proposal in the Bill, and as he should not like to go back on the decision of the Committee he could not accept the Amendment.
    DR. CLARKsaid this clause was not a Public Health Clause at all; it should be in a Police Act. If a man or a Corporation put their money into common lodging-houses in large towns, they should be protected from the arbitrary withdrawal of their licences.
    MR. SOUTTARsaid that he did not know why his hon. Friends should object to this provision. Very often a lodging house became disreputable, and it was felt in Committee that it would be desirable for the lodging house keeper to have to renew his licence from year to year.
    SIR C. CAMERONsaid that in Committee the Lord Advocate found that the clause needed to be redrafted, and the right hon. Gentleman promised to prepare a new clause before Report. That had not been done. The clause would be unworkable because there was no provision for the transfer of the licence.
    Amendment negatived; clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
    Clause 101,—

    SEWERS TO BE VESTED IN LOCAL AUTHORITY, ETC.
    All sewers existing within a district and not being private property, or not being and continuing under the management of persons appointed by the Crown, or by or in pursuance of any Act of Parliament or Provisional Order, together with all manways, lampholes, ventilating shafts, cesspools, surface gratings and their connections, sluices, and all appliances pertaining thereto, whether the same be the property of the local authority or of any person, shall be vested in the local authority: Provided always, that nothing in this Act contained shall affect the rights of any person or persons to the property or management of any sewers in virtue of any existing local or general police statute.
    MR. PARKER SMITH, after "district," moved to insert "not being a burgh," and to limit the clause accordingly. This clause, he said, was not quite consistent with the clause that does the same thing in the Burgh Police Act 1882, and this clause and other clauses which applied to burghs. The burghs had found very real inconvenience owing to the overlapping of the codes and rules in the different Public Health Acts and Burgh Police Acts. They were seriously apprehensive that fresh difficulties would arise in the management, both of their sewers and water, owing to this fresh Act coming in without any clear definition of how far it was to apply to burghs and how far it was not. He had endeavoured through the association of burgh officials to put down new clauses to deal with the point as far as possible, but it was too elaborate a matter for a private Member to deal with. The subject had so many ramifications that it could only be dealt with adequately by responsible officials of the Government.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid there was no use for the words proposed at this point. The Burgh Police Act, Section (215), vested the sewers in the Commissioners. He was quite aware that the hon. Member was raising the larger question, and he recognised that there was a serious question as to whether proceedings were to be under the Public Health Acts or the Burgh Police Act of 1892, in so far as the provisions of those two Acts related to sewers, drains, and water supply. He did not find it possible to deal with the matter in this Act, because, in the first place, it was impossible to do so until they had finally settled the incidence of assessment. But when this was done it was still true that the question required separate treatment, as it was a question of very considerable complication. The matter, however, would be looked into with the view of introducing a short Bill on the subject. He thought it would be better to deal with it in that way, and they could then elicit the opinion of the burghs in Scotland and settle the matter in accordance with public opinion.
    MR. BUCHANANsaid they welcomed the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, although they were sorry it had been made at such a late hour.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

    833
    Amendment made: Leave out "whether the same be the property of the local authority or of any person."
    Clause 102,—

    POWER, TO PURCHASE SEWERS.
    The local authority may, in terms of the Sections one hundred and forty-three and one hundred and forty-four of this Act, acquire the rights and powers vested in any person to make sewers or to use any sewer, with or without the buildings and other things thereto pertaining. Provided that they shall make compensation for the rights so acquired, and shall also make compensation to the proprietors and occupiers of any lands and heritages which may he damaged by reason of the exercise of the powers hereby conferred, in terms of this Act.
    Amendment made: Words "hundred and forty-three and one hundred and forty-four" struck out; words "hundred and forty-four and one hundred and forty-five" inserted.
    Clause 107,—

    PROTECTION FOR RAILWAYS, CANALS, ETC.
    Where any such sewer shall pass under or across, or in any way affect any railway or canal, or any bridge, tunnel, or other work in connection therewith, the following provisions for the protection of such railway or canal, or bridge, tunnel, or other work, shall apply and have effect:—

    (1.) The whole works connected with such sewer, so far as affecting any railway or canal, or bridge, tunnel, or other work, shall be executed and thereafter maintained under the superintendence and to the reasonable satisfaction of the engineer of the railway or canal company, and according to plans and specifications to be previously submitted to such engineer and approved by him in writing. Provided that if such engineer shall not have expressed his approval or disapproval of such plans and specifications within fourteen days after the same shall have been submitted to Lim, he shall be deemed to have approved thereof;

    (2.) Such works, and any alteration which it may at any time be necessary to make in such works, may be executed either by the local authority or by the railway or canal company at the option of the engineer of the railway or canal company;

    (3.) In the event of the local authority and the engineer of time railway or canal company differing in opinion in regard to any works affecting the railway, or canal, or bridge, tunnel, or other work, or as to the mode of carrying out such works, or otherwise in relation thereto, such difference shall, on the application of the local authority, or of the railway or canal company, be referred to an engineer to be appointed by the sheriff, and shall be decided by the sheriff upon the report of such engineer, and such decision shall be final.

    DR. CLARKmoved to leave out the clause. He said that this clause embodied a very novel principle which had not been seen in any Public Health Act before. Other kinds of property required as much protection as railways, and there was no reason why it should be confined exclusively to railway property.
    *THE LORD ADVOCATEsubmitted that it was only just that the railway company should have the supervision of the work that the safety of the public might be safeguarded.
    MR. WEIRcontended that the local authority should he the master of the situation and should not have to obtain the approval of the railway company. The companies had already far too much power.
    MR. CALDWELLargued that the existing law was sufficient to protect not only railway companies, but those whose interests were of greater importance. The clause was totally unnecessary. There was no such law in England; there had never hitherto been such a law in Scotland, and he did not see why it should be introduced now.
    MR. T. SHAWdesired to say a word. It was admitted that this principle was entirely novel both in Scotch and in English legislation. They might have the local authority and all concerned agreeing as to the expediency of a system of drainage which included the construction of a sewer under a railway; yet the whole scheme might be paralysed by a decision of the sheriff, whose decision might block the drainage of an entire district. That was a serious matter, and he should like to know what was the reason for the introduction of this novel scheme.
    MR. PARKER SMITHdid not think the difficulty suggested by the hon. Member who bad just spoken would arise, because the whole question that would come before the sheriff would be as to the exact engineering method that was to be adopted. He did not intend to rise, as it seemed to him that the Lord Advocate had fully stated the case; but in view of what had been said, he might state briefly the history of the clause. The clause really arose out of a case in which the authorities of Glasgow and Partick, acting together, wanted to go under the North British Railway; and the case went before Sheriff Perry, who

    835
    gave judgment just on the general lines of this clause, and then, the point being in the minds of both the burgh authorities and the railway people, they were anxious to get some line laid down; this clause had been before both the railway officials and the association of burgh officials. The latter fully accepted the scheme, and said they would a great deal rather the railway company did the work than that they themselves had the responsibility.
    MR. CALDWELL: Who is to pay for it?
    DR. CLARK: Not the railway directors.
    MR. PARKER SMITH: I have their criticisms of the sub-section, and the only criticism the burgh officials make is that there is no obligation on the local authority to pay when the railway chooses the option of making the drain.
    MR. SOUTTARsaid he thought the clause a reasonable one, and la: spoke from some experience of engineering. He could not see how they could do otherwise than put such a clause in the Bill. The engineers employed by local authorities were not the most capable, from want of experience, of carrying sewers under railways and canals. The railway engineer was by far the more suitable man for designing these works; at any rate, for seeing that they were properly designed. There might be extreme danger—hon. Member; had minimised the danger; a danger not so much to the railway companies as to the general public—in carrying a sewer under a railway or canal, and such a clause was in his opinion, absolutely necessary. An hon. Member had said that the sheriff would decide the case. But he would draw his attention to the fact that the sheriff only decided the case after an engineer had been appointed, an independent engineer who gave an independent report. He did not think, therefore, that there would be any difficulty or any harm done in connection with that matter, or in connection with the working of the whole clause as it stood.
    DR. TANNERconsidered that there was too great an option given in this matter. He thought that instead of going through the business in a semi-satisfactory way they should take time by the forelock, and put off further discussion on this important point, especially seeing that they had reached the hour of half-past Two o'clock.
    836
    Question put, "That Clause 107 stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided:—Ayes, 95; Noes 22.—(Division List, No. 328.)
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYmoved the adjournment of the Debate, hoping that hon. Gentlemen would do their best to expedite progress when the Bill came on again.
    Further proceeding on consideration, as amended, adjourned. Bill to be further considered upon Monday next.

    SUPPLY [19TH JULY].
    Report deferred till to-morrow.

    OUTDOOR RELIEF (IRELAND) BILL.
    Order for Second reading read.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR, Leeds, Central)moved: "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
    MR. D. CRILLYtrusted that some explanation of this Bill would be forthcoming. So far as he understood the proposals, it was matter of extreme regret, in view of the condition of many Poor Law districts in Ireland, that the right hon. Gentleman had not put his hand to a bolder Measure more worthy of the occasion. It was a small and pettifogging way of dealing with a serious evil, which the very introduction of the Bill proved to exist. Clearly it was recognised by the Government that outdoor relief in some parts of Ireland had become such a necessity that exceptional measures were required to deal with the reduction. For months it had been notorious that exceptional distress existed in Ireland. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman what earthly good could this small Measure do in his constituency, for instance. The barony of Ennis, in the Belmullet Union, was the poorest district scheduled under the Congested Districts Act. The valuation was only £14 10s. and the rates had been over 10s. in the £1, and, according to the calculation of the guardians at the end of the financial year the rate would be 12s. 8d. in the £. This Bill did not bring any relief to the people themselves. It simply gave the Irish Local Government Board power to raise money

    837
    on the security of rates. It, only proposed that at any time before the 1st of December 1897, the Local Government Board might by order under their seal, authorise boards of guardians of poor law unions to administer relief for any period not exceeding two months. In Belmullet Union that simply meant that this order might be issued before the first day of September and would operate for two months. It meant that relief might be given during September and October, hut that in November, December and January, the bitterest and worst months of the year, they would not get relief. The right hon. Gentleman might say that at the end of the two months the harvest might be coming in, and the people would have some security against distress, and starvation, and fever. But in his constituency it was a notorious fact that the potato crop had failed entirely, and that the other crops were, comparatively, in the same way. The people of Belmullet therefore would have nothing at the end of two months in time way of harvest to fall back upon. The fact of this exceptional distress had been brought to the notice of the Government ever since the beginning of January, but they had gone on doing nothing, and now, at the very end of the Session, the Chief Secretary asked them to pass this innocuous, harmless, worthless, and useless Measure. For himself he could not realise how one case of distress would be helped by the passage of this Bill, which was not worth the paper it was written on.
    MR. GERALD BALFOURsaid the hon. Member complained that although distress had existed for a considerable period the Government had done nothing hitherto, and that now at the fag end of the Session they proposed what he called an innocuous Measure. He would remind the hon. Member, however, that by an administrative act he had permitted the guardians of the congested unions to take advantage of the provisions of the Bill. In doing that he had only followed the precedent which had been set several times during the last fifteen or sixteen years. The hon. Member had described this as a useless Bill. He would point out that unless it were allowed to pass, the effect would be that the guardians who, for the last four months or se had been administering out-door relief under its provisions, would be liable
    838
    to be surcharged with the expenditure they had so made. The hon. Member had also said that it could only have effect for two months from the 1st September. He must remind him that he had taken the Bill, with the exception of one clause, from the Bill which was passed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose in 1895, which was a year of severer and more widespread distress than had been experienced during the present year. If it was found necessary, later on in the year—in November December—to extend the relaxations of the conditions under which outdoor relief was given in Ireland, that could again be done by an administrative Act of the Local Government Board, and no doubt would be done. When the end of the financial year Came, if the condition of the Belmullet Union was such as to render necessary further measures, the Government would be prepared to consider the situation and, if necessary, to give such assistance as might be deemed requisite under the circumstances.
    MR. DALYsaid he considered it an insult to any board of guardians in Ireland that they should only he allowed to give relief for two months. It was an insult to infer that they were going to squander money that they had a share in contributing. He would recommend the right hon. Gentleman to keep his Bill, for he believed it would be very little use to the poor of Ireland. He noticed that one of the clauses allowed the Guardians to mortgage their own rates. It reminded him of the old saying about feeding a dog with a bit of its tail. The best course for the Irish Members was to scout the Bill out of the House.
    DR. TANNERsaid that the Government who were going to do so much good for Ireland when they entered on their tenure of office, were now trying to hide their disgrace in their administration of the affairs of Ireland by bringing in at Three o'clock in the morning an Outdoor Relief Bill.
    MR. DENIS KILBRIDEappealed to his hon. Friend, in view of the pledge of the Government, to allow the Second Reading of the Bill to be taken.
    MR.PATRICK M'HUGHsaid he did not intend to object to the Government getting the Second Reading,

    839
    although he had previously intended to do so, because he considered the Bill was absolutely worthless. It amounted to this, that the Chief Secretary asked the House to give himself, as the President of the Local Government Board of Ireland, power to tax an already overtaxed community, power to tax paupers for the purpose of relieving paupers. These people who were to be taxed were already taxed almost at the rateable valuation. He noticed the Solicitor General for Ireland had his name on the back of the Bill, and he should like to know why he did not say anything on the subject. The hon. Member quoted at some length from the sections of the Bill, and commented upon them. He said there was no Poor Law Union referred to in the Bill. They did not want this Bill in his own constituency.
    MR. GERALD BALFOURsaid there were five unions to which these powers had already been extended.
    MR. PATRICK M'HUGHasked what the right hon. Gentleman meant by the expression "class of persons." Why did not the Solicitor General for Ireland tell them what was meant by that phrase? Speaking for his constituents he objected to extend the powers already possessed by the Local Government Board. As to the power to borrow money on the security of the rates, he said that this was an attempt to perpetuate the system of gombeenism, of which the right hon. Gentleman was the representative in the House. He was the gombeen man that represented the Treasury. [Laughter.] If the right hon. Gentleman was going to raise money on the security of the rates of the union, and to treat the ratepayers in the way that he had treated the people of Sligo, he said that the right hon. Gentleman was nothing but a gombeen man.
    *MR. SPEAKERasked the hon. Member to address himself to the subject of the Bill, and not to make these irrelevant observations.
    MR. PATRICK M'HUGH, after reading the third clause, said that the hon. Member for Mayo had told the House that the rates were 10s. 6d. in the pound and that at the end of the year experts calculated that they would be 12s. 8d.
    *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is now repeating for the third or fourth time the observations
    840
    made by himself and other Members. I must ask him to resume his seat.
    Question put and agreed to; Bill read a Second time, and committed for Monday next.

    BURIAL GROUNDS LOANS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [11th May] further adjourned till Monday next.
    STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES' JURISDICTION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
    WICKLOW HARBOUR (ADVANCES) BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
    METROPOLITAN POLICE (BORROWING POWERS) BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
    LAND TRANSFER RE-COMMITTED) BILL [H.L.]
    Committee deferred till Monday next.
    SUPPLY [9TH JULY.]
    Report deferred till Monday next.
    METROPOLITAN WATER COMPANIES BILL.
    Consideration, as amended, deferred till Monday next.
    NAVAL WORKS BILL.
    Third Reading deferred till Monday next.
    DANGEROUS PERFORMANCES BILL.
    Committee deferred till Monday next.

    ISLE OF MAN (CHURCH BUILDING ACTS BILL).
    Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [5th July] further adjourned till Monday next.
    Whereupon, in pursuance of an Order of the House of the 15th day of this instant July, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.
    House Adjourned accordingly at Twenty Minutes after Three o'Clock a.m.

VISCOUNT DILLON.— LORD KENSINGTON.
Reports made from the Lord Chancellor, that the right of Harold Arthur, Viscount Dillon, and William, Baron Kensington, to vote at the elections of Representative Peers for Ireland has been established to the satisfaction of the Lord Chancellor; read, and ordered to lie on the Table.

PROVISIONAL ORDER (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
On the Order to go into Committee on this Bill,
*THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Lord BALFOUR)said he understood it was necessary that the Committee stage of the Bill should be taken so that Amendments agreed to by the Select Committee to whom the Bill was referred might be inserted in their proper places. But he thought it right to say that he did not intend to ask the House to proceed further with the Bill this Session. It was no doubt introduced late in the Session, but when it was referred to the Select Committee he hoped the Bill would be placed on the Statute Book this year. But the proceedings in the Select Committee occupied longer than he anticipated, and after one of the Amendments made in the Select Committee, he felt it would be hopeless for him to ask Parliament to proceed further with the Bill this Session. The majority of the Amendments made by the Committee dealt with points on which he was willing to accept the decision arrived and the structure and framework of the Bill had not been greatly interfered with by the Amendments, which, on the whole, were in the direction of preserving more strict control over legislative proposals, which would come before Parliament by Provisional Order, than was at first proposed. The
686
threatened attack on the position of the Secretary for Scotland in the Bill was not carried to extremities, and, indeed, in one rather important particular. An important function was laid on the Secretary for Scotland, which he himself would not have asked Parliament to intrust to any executive officer—power in connection with the Chairmen of Committees to prevent opponents front being heard before Parliament unless they could show good cause. One Amendment made by the Select Committee he regarded as of great importance. It related to the method of forming the tribunal to sit in judgment on proposals placed in the hands of the Secretary for Scotland. As introduced, the Bill proposed that there should be a tribunal of three persons —one of whom was a Judge of the Court of Session or a Sheriff, aril to be Chairman; and the other two gentlemen chosen for their fitness and skill in affairs of this kind. In this way a panel was to be formed from whom Commissions were to be chosen for each inquiry. The selecting body was to consist of two persons selected by the conveners of counties in Scotland, and two persons selected by the convention of Royal Burghs, and they were to sit with the Secretary for Scotland and consider the claims and qualifications of possible Commissioners to be placed on the panel, front whom the Commission for each inquiry would be selected by the Secretary for Scotland. That proposition did not meet with general acceptance. A legal chairman was objected to in many quarters, and the proposal that the select body should be appointed by the convention of Royal Burghs was also a good deal criticised. After considerable discussion another clause was proposed by him, which would have had the effect, while still maintaining the selecting body on the lines originally suggested; it would have had it composed as before of two members elected by the conveners of counties in Scotland, and two sent in by town councils of cities and burghs above 15,000 in population at the last Census. As the proposal for a legal chairman was to be abandoned, he suggested that the selecting body should have the duty laid upon it of providing not only for the panel of ordinary Commissioners, but the panel from whom the

687
chairman should be chosen. He attached great importance to the selection of both these panels by a small and quasi-judicial body, which would feel the responsibility of acting judicially. It was also proposed that the selection of the panel should be made in this way—that all the counties and burghs in Scotland with a population above 15,000 should each nominate one. There were thirty counties having separate county councils, and 27 or 28 burghs, which would have been qualified under that provision. That would have resulted in a panel of 60 persons being selected. But the method proposed was not so satisfactory as the one he suggested, because there would have been no possibility of conference between the respective selecting authorities. They would each probably have selected a respectable gentleman known to themselves, who might or might not have special qualifications. They would feel no special responsibility in selecting a fit person, and he did not think a tribunal selected from a body so chosen would have commanded general confidence. However, that proposal was carried against his by five to four. He could not make himself responsible for it, and he was, therefore, obliged to face these two alternatives—either to abandon the Bill or ask the House to reverse the decision of the Select Committee. Earlier in the Session he should have had no hesitation in selecting the latter of these two alternatives. But if he did that now, and the Bill had to pass through the other House, it could hardly be expected to become law this Session. So he had decided to ask the House not to proceed further with the Bill. On one other point an Amendment was made and was carried against him. Probably it was only a fair corollary of the decision to which he had referred, that the persons composing the tribunal for each inquiry should not be remunerated for their services beyond payment of out-of-pocket expenses. If it was difficult in Parliament to obtain Members of that House and the House of Commons to serve on Committees when resident in London, it would be found doubly difficult to induce gentlemen qualified for the work to go to parts of Scotland in which they were strangers, and away from home, at a time when it might be inconvenient, and do irksome work
688
and drudgery without receiving remuneration. He did not regret the introduction of the Bill in its original form. He believed it had been recognised by most of those interested in solving the question in Scotland as an honest attempt to deal with a somewhat difficult and intricate subject, the difficulty and intricacy of which, he thought, was not always fully recognised by all those who set themselves up as authorities in regard to it. In regard to the future, he thought this question could not be allowed to rest where it was. He believed the demand for a certain amount of devolution of private Bill legislation to tribunals sitting locally would increase rather than diminish, and that Parliament would have to deal with it. He hoped and believed the introduction of this Bill would lead to a discussion of the whole question in Scotland during the autumn, the result of which would be to ripen opinion on the subject and place the Government in a more favourable position for dealing with it on a future occasion. He might, perhaps, be allowed to express his own personal hope that it would be found possible to re-introduce a Bill on the subject at an earlier period next Session, and, in the light of the experience they had gained, that they might be able to carry it to a successful conclusion. ["Hear, hear!"] He begged to move in the meantime that the House resolve itself into Committee.
LORD TWEEDMOUTHthought that, as the Secretary for Scotland had announced the withdrawal of the Bill, it would be mere beating of the air if he were to attempt to debate the subjects he had raised. He would only say he thought what had been desired had been gained—namely, that a definite proposal should be placed upon the Paper, should have been before their Lordships' House, and should go before the people of Scotland interested in the matter, in the Recess, so that they might form their opinion upon it, and aid the Secretary for Scotland in producing another Measure in a subsequent Session of Parliament. He was sure the noble Lord would find there was a general desire on the part of Scotsmen of all parties to further a satisfactory change in this important question, and that they would welcome his efforts in this direction. As to the noble Lord's remarks on the question of the panel, he would remind him

689
that this had been the crux of the difficulty in all proposals to change the present system of dealing with private Bills. He thought the fault of his noble Friend's proposal was that be designed a much too elaborate system of indirect election. A system of as simple a. direct election as could he arrived at, which would give a sufficiently large body of sufficiently practical persons to form a panel from which individual commissioners should he chosen, was what they should aim at. He did not think his noble Friend's proposal with regard to the panel was one which commanded the assent of Scotsmen, and he did not think it was one which would have produced satisfactory results in the future. He believed the proposal in the Bill as it stood was after all the better proposal. It. was not novel, for it had been proposed before, that these subjects should be dealt with by men chosen by the Town and County Councils, and he trusted that in another Session of Parliament they would be able to deal with it in a satisfactory manner.
THE EARL OF MORLEY (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)thought the Secretary for Scotland had obtained the object in view in introducing this Measure. He agreed with the noble Lord who had just spoken that it was extremely desirable a definite project should be brought. before those interested in Scotland, and the matter thoroughly discussed during the autumn. He thought the noble Lord might be congratulated on having attained that object. Of course it. was impossible to carry such a Measure this Session. He hoped when the Bill was introduced again the provisions would be a little fuller than they were. It seemed to him there were several omissions in the Bill that would require a. fuller statement in any new project that was, brought before Parliament. He could but say he should only be too happy to give any assistance in his power, and he should like also to say he must not be. understood to be bound absolutely by the decision which the Committee had arrived at, or to the exact forms of the Bill, anxious as he was to simplify and render cheaper the process
690
by which private Bill legislation could be accomplished.
Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly. Amendments proposed by the Select Committee made; Standing Committee negatived.

PARISH COUNCILS (SCOTLAND) (CASUAL VACANCIES) BILL.
Considered in Committee.
[The CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES, the Earl of MORLEY, in the Chair.]
Clause 1,—

SHORT TITLE AND CONSTRUCTION OF ACT.
This Act may be cited as the Parish Councils Casual Vacancies (Scotland) Act 1897, and shall be construed as one with the Local Government (Scotland) Act 1894.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2,—
PROVISIONS FOR FILLING UP CASUAL VACANCIES IN PARISH COUNCILS IN PARISHES PARTLY LANDWARD AND PARTLY BURGH-AL, ETC.
"In the event of a casual vacancy in the parish council of a parish which is partly landward and partly burghal, or comprises a police burgh or part of a police burgh, the following provisions shall have effect with respect to she filling up of such vacancy (that is to say):—

(1) The parish councillors, who are members of the Landward Committee of such parish council, shall not be entitled to vote in filling up any casual vacancy therein, except a vacancy caused by the death, resignation, or disqualification of a parish councillor who was a member of such Landward Committee.

(2.) The parish councillors who are not members of such Landward Committee shall not be entitled to vote in filling up any casual vacancy in such parish council, except a vacancy caused by the death, resignation, or disqualification of a parish councillor who was not a member of such Landward Committee."

*LORD BALFOURmoved as an Amendment to leave out Sub-section (1), upon the ground that. it really was not required. There was no grievance and no difficulty to be remedied by means of it. Not only was that the case, but if it was

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passed as it stood it would lead to many difficulties and complications which did not now exist. The reason for allowing the landward members of the Council to elect to casual vacancies in the Landward Committee was that the Landward Committee had distinct and separate functions from the Parish Council as a whole. The burgh members had no functions apart from their membership of the Parish Council, because all the functions which were discharged by the Landward Committee for the landward part of the parish were discharged for the burgh through the proper burgh authority. There had been a few difficulties in cases where burgh members had insisted on putting men with burgh interests into the Landward Committee. In the other case there had been no difficulty at all, and, as he had said, serious complications would be caused if this sub-section was allowed to stand part of the Bill. He would give one instance which he thought would convince the Committee that the proposal was not a wise one—namely, the case of the Parish Council in which Dundee and Broughty Ferry were situated. There were there two burghs, one of which had only one representative upon the Parish Council, and if the Bill were to pass with this sub-section in it the result would be, in the event of a vacancy occurring in the representation of Broughty Ferry, while the landward representatives of the Council would be prevented from voting, the vacancy would be filled up by the representatives of Dundee, because there were no others to do it. That would be an anomalous and absurd result, and he hoped their Lordships would not allow this sub-section to stand part of the Bill.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEexplained that the object of the promoters of the Bill was to protect the interests of the landward members. The Secretary for Scotland had stated that those interests would be duly preserved by leaving out the sub-section, and therefore he had no objection to its omission.
LORD TWEEDMOUTHobjected to the Amendment. He should like to explain to English Lords what the proposal of the Bill was and what the effect of the Amendment would be. In Scotland, parishes which were subject to Parish Councils were divided into three categories—namely, landward, which were
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entirely parishes that were outside the limits of a burgh; burghal parishes, which were parishes within the limits of a burgh; and mixed parishes, consisting of landward and burghal parishes. In the Local Government Act for Scotland great care was taken to save the interests of the landward and burghal portions of such a parish. Great care was taken to insure, according to the interests of the two portions of the parish, an exact proportion in the numbers of the members of a County Council. In only one respect was not provision made, and that was in the case of a casual vacancy. When a. vacancy occurred from the death of one of the Councillors, then the landward representatives and the burghal representatives alike met and chose another Member in the place of the deceased. At times the interest of the landward and burghal parts of the parish were very different, and friction arose, and there had been difficulties, which, however, had been assuaged by the intervention of the Local Government Board for Scotland, who had induced the representatives of both portions of the parish to join in selecting the proper man to represent the particular interest which was represented by the deceased person. So that really this Bill was introduced to meet one particular case which had arisen, although other means had been found of meeting such cases. But if they were going to allow the landward representatives of a parish to select their own man by themselves, aside from the burghal representatives, to a vacancy that occurred amongst them, surely they ought not then to allow the landward men to have anything to say in the choice of a representative to a vacancy that occurred among the burghal representatives. Not only did they save the landward people from any violation of their interests by allowing them to elect a man to fill a vacancy that occurred among their own number, but if they adopted Lord Balfour's Amendment, they would allow the same landward men to have a large voice in filling the vacancy caused by a death amongst the burghal representatives also. Surely that would be giving an altogether unfair predominance to the landward members of mixed parishes. He would ask their Lordships either to leave matters as they were by not passing this Bill at all—which would not give rise to

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any great grievance—or, if they did, while it was perfectly fair to give to the landward representatives of the Parish Council the right to elect their own representative, then he should say they ought also to allow the burghal portion of the parish to elect their own representative from among their own number. It seemed to him that to take that course would be absolutely inconsistent with the provisions of the Act of 1894. The step proposed by the noble Lord would be a departure from the intention of the Act, which evidently was to preserve the rights and interests of the burghal representatives and landward representatives in their separate capacities. He should certainly oppose the Amendment.
*LORD BALFOURsaid there was One point omitted by the noble Lord—that there could really be no question of Lurgh representatives being properly appointed, for where there was a mixed parish the population of the burgh would always be in the majority, they would get in their man if they were unanimous, and would always have their own way in regard to filling up vacancies on the landward committee. It was impossible in the event of a question arising as to the burgh representation, and opinion being divided, the landward party by siding with one of the parties might determine the question as between the burgh representatives; but even in that case the man elected would be a representative of the burgh, not of the landward interest, whereas in the case for the Bill if the burgh representatives chose they could by united action put a man into the landward committee in their own interest, and hostile to the general body of ratepayers.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, after the appeal of his noble Friend to English Lords, ventured to express his opinion on this Scotch subject, though he did so with great diffidence. He really could not understand the argument of Lord Balfour. He could quite understand. that it might be the case, as the noble Lord said, that there being such a large number people in the town portion of the parish, as compared with what in England would be called the rural portion of the parish, the land portion would always have a majority. But that was not exactly the point. As he understood,
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all voted together; but surely, if it was desirable to make admission and to let the landward portion of the district vote for vacancies in their own body, it seemed to follow almost as a matter of course that you should do the same with the other portion.
*LORD BALFOURsaid the noble Earl had missed the point; the landward committee sat apart from the burgh portion as to certain duties, as to the discharge of which the burgh representatives had no interest whatever.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid he had no doubt he had missed a point, but he could not see the evil result that would follow from placing them both on a footing of equality as regards casual vacancies. It seemed to him an equitable arrangement, and he did not see why all invidious privilege should be accorded to landward members and not given to town members. He could not see what possible injury would be done to anybody by making the matter equal to both sides. That was the view he took, but he repeated he had a feeling of diffidence in intervening at all.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEsaid there was a distinct difference of position, the landward members acted separately, but the burgh members conjointly with the landward members, so that the same question did not arise with burgh vacancies.
LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid this was no reason for not meting out equal justice in respect to electing their own representatives.
THE EARL OF LAUDERDALEsaid there was no case in regard to the burgh portion, because there it was election to the whole council.
Question put: "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
The Committee divided.

CONTENTS

10

NOT-CONTENTS

29

Bill reported as amended, and re-committed to the Standing Committee; to be printed as amended.—(No. 175.)

STATUTE LAW REVISION BILL [H.L.]
Read 2a (according to Order), and referred to the Joint Committee on Statute Law Revision and Consolidation Bills; and a message ordered to be sent to the Commons to acquaint them therewith.

WEIGHTS AND MEASURES (METRIC SYSTEM) BILL.
Considered in Committee.
Clause 1,—

USE OF METRIC WEIGHTS AND MEASURES IN TRADE.
Notwithstanding anything in the Weights and Measures Act 1878, the use of a weight or measure of the metric system in trade shall be lawful, and nothing in Section nineteen of that Act shall make void any contract, bargain, sale, or dealing by reason only of its being made or had according to weights or measures of the metric system, and a person using or having in his possession a weight or measure of the metric system shall not by reason thereof be liable to any fine.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 2,—
METRIC STANDARDS AND EQUIVALENTS.

(1.) The Board of Trade standards which may be made under Section eight of the Weights and Measures Act 1878, shall include metric standards derived from the standard metre and standard kilogram deposited with the Board of Trade.

(2.) It shall be lawful for the Queen by Order in Council to make a table of metric equivalents in substitution for the table in Part I. of the Third Schedule to the Weights and Measures Act 1878, and as from the date at which the Order in Council comes into operation, Part I of the said schedule and Sections eighteen and thirty-eight of the said Act shall be repealed.

*LORD BALFOURsaid the object of the Amendments he had to move was to put beyond all doubt the identification of the special standards referred to, and made no change in the substance of the Bill.
Amendments made: —In Sub-section (1) before the words "standard metre," insert the words "iridio-platinum linear." Before the words "standard kilogram," insert "iridio-platinum," and
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after "Trade" insert "and numbered 16 and 18 respectively."
Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 3,—

SHORT TITLE.
This Act may be cited as the Weights and Measures (Metric System) Act 1897, and may be cited with the Weights and Measures Acts 1878 to 1893.
Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee; and to be printed as amended.—(No. 176.)

LUNACY BILL [H.L.]
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bills to be Read 3a Tomorrow.
CHAFF-CUTTING MACHINES (ACCIDENTS) BILL.
Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bills to be Read 3a To-morrow.

VERMINOUS PERSONS BILL (NOW CLEANSING OF PERSONS BILL).
Amendments reported (according to Order).
Clause 1,—
POWER TO LOCAL AUTHORITIES TO PROVIDE CLEANSING, ETC. FOR PERSONS INFESTED WITH VERMIN.
On and after the passing of this Act any local authority shall have the power, when and in their discretion they shall see fit, to permit any person who shall apply to the said authority, on the ground that he is infested with vermin, to have the use, free of charge, of the apparatus (if any) which the authority possess for cleansing the person and his clothing from vermin. The use of such apparatus shall not be considered to be parochial relief or charitable allowance to the person using the same, or to the parent of such person, and no such person or parent shall by reason thereof be deprived of any right or privilege or be subject to any disqualification or disability.
Local authorities may expend any reasonable sum on buildings, appliances, and attendants that may be required for the carrying out of this Act.
THE EARL OF STAMFORDsaid he had spared no pains to meet the point taken by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack and by Lord Kimberley, and to identify the fund out of which the expenses of this Bill should be met. He proposed with this object to insert the following words in Clause 1,—
"And the objects of this Act may be met out of any rate or fund applicable by the authority for general sanitary purposes or for the relief of the poor."
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said he was not prepared to say that the noble Lord would succeed in the ingenious device he had adopted, but a difficulty arose in a way the noble Lord did not seem to contemplate. A rate was only imposed by statute for some specific purpose. If there was any general rate by which such purposes as these could be satisfied it could be charged on it. Otherwise, if they made a rate for a purpose not authorised by statute the rate was simply bad. The result would be that if there was no rate to meet the duties placed on local bodies by this Act, there would be no machinery to put the Act into force unless some one was to pay the expenses out of his own pocket. If there was a rate already chargeable for these purposes, the Amendment was not necessary. If there was not, then he ventured to suggest that they were creating a new rate and placing a new charge on the community which exposed them to another objection. On the other hand, he could not help feeling that if no Amendment was put in the other House they would have no opportunity of dealing with the Bill at all. It would be taken as it was, and in that condition of difficulty the noble· Lord had apparently adopted the only possible device.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid he could not help feeling that there was a good deal of difficulty in the matter, and he should like to know what was the view of the Local Government Board on the subject. The Amendment said that the expenses might be met out of any fund for general sanitary purposes, but he knew that in regard to some sanitary measures, certainly, there was a different proportion to be paid by house property
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and by lands. Of course, it would not be right that there should be cleansing of verminous persons from a rate which was proportioned, for very different reasons, indeed, in a peculiar manner. On the other hand, it was rather anomalous to enact that it should be from any fund which was raised for poor relief, because it was especially stated in the Bill that it was not to make a man a pauper in any way.
THE PRIME MINISTER (The Marquess of SALISBURY)said the noble Earl opposite seemed to feel that there was a difficulty, where the rate was paid in the proportions of one by the country and three by the town, in applying such a rate as that to the discharge of the purposes of this Bill. But people who lived in houses had much more interest in getting rid of vermin than the person who merely walked in the fields—[laughter]—and therefore it was quite proper that the houses should be specially charged in order to get rid of this nuisance. [Laughter.]
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: I must be allowed to say that that is a most ingenious argument, and I am quite prepared to accept it. [Laughter.]
LORD HARRISsaid it seemed somewhat audacious on his part to advance an opinion in opposition to the Lord Chancellor, but it was the Local Government Board's opinion, and not his personal opinion. Their opinion was that the Bill as originally drafted was sufficient, and that it would have been legal to supply those appliances out of the rates. But to meet the noble mid learned Lord's suggestion that it would be necessary to specify the rate, these words had been inserted.
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: Then the Local Government Board do not object to the words moved?
LORD HARRIS: No; they have suggested them themselves. [Laughter.]
Clause 2,—

DEFINITION.
In this Act "local authority" means the council of any county borough, the district council of any district, any board of guardians, and in the county of London any sanitary authority as defined in the Public Health (London) Act 1891.
THE EARL OF STAMFORDmoved to leave out the word "means," and to insert the words, "shall mean in England."
Amendments agreed to; and Bill to be Read 3a To-morrow.

COPYRIGHT (AMENDMENT) BILL [H.L.]
On the Order for the Third Reading of this Bill,
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid he ought to call the attention of Lord Monkswell to the fact that he was told that if the last clause of the Bill was retained, it would cause considerable difficulty with regard to negotiations that had been pending for some time. He would suggest that he should therefore omit that clause, but, as he did not think it would be quite regular to do it at this moment, the better course would be for him to move the adjournment of the Debate until to-morrow. In the meantime, he could give notice of his intention to omit the clause.
LORD MONKSWELLsaid he had already been made acquainted by the Colonial Office with the difficulty in regard to that clause, which he proposed to leave out. If the noble and learned Lord thought it had better be done to-morrow, he would take that course. He would, however, move the other Amendments of which he had given notice. They did not deal with the substance of the Measure at all.
Amendments made:—
Clause 1,—

TRANSLATIONS AND INFRINGEMENT OF COPYRIGHT.
(1.) In the case of a book, it shall be an infringement of the copyright therein if any person shall, without the consent of the owner of the copyright, translate the book.

COPYRIGHT IN TRANSLATIONS.
(2.) The author of an authorised translation of a book shall be entitled to copyright therein in the same manner as if it was an original work.
Leave out "an authorised," and insert "a lawfully made."
After "copyright made therein," insert, "in the particular translation so made."
Clause 7,—

ABRIDGMENTS WITHOUT CONSENT PROHIBITED.
(i.) It shall be an infringement of the copyright in a book if any person shall, without the consent of the owner of the copyright, print or otherwise multiply, or cause to be printed or otherwise multiplied, any abridgment of such book, or shall export or import any abridgment so unlawfully produced, or shall sell, publish, or expose for sale or hire, or cause to be sold, published, or exposed for sale or hire, any abridgment, knowing or having reasonable grounds to suspect that the same has been so unlawfully produced or imported.
COPYRIGHT OWNER NOT TO ABRIDGE WITHOUT AUTHOR'S CONSENT IN CERTAIN CASES.
(ii.) Where the author of a book has sold the copyright thereof in consideration (whether wholly or in part) of a royalty or a share of the profits to be derived from the publication thereof, or is otherwise notwithstandig such sale possessed of a pecuniary interest therein, such book shall not, during the continuance of the copyright therein, and so long as the author shall be entitled to such royalty, share of profits, or shall be so interested as aforesaid, be abridged by the purchaser of such copyright without the consent in writing of the author or his assigns.
(iii.) Where the author has sold the exclusive right of publication of a book, without assigning the copyright, he shall not be at liberty to publish an abridgment of the work without the consent of the owner of the exclusive right of publication.

NOTICE ON TITLE PAGE THAT ABRIDGMENT IS NOT BY AUTHOR.
(iv.) If the owner of the copyright in a book to the abridgment whereof the author's consent is not required under the preceding proviso intends to publish an abridgment thereof made by some person other than the author of the original book, he shall give notice of such intention to the author, if living, by registered letter, directed to his last known address, and shall, if so required by such author, either state or cause to be stated on the title page of each part or volume of the abridgment that the abridgment is not by the author of the original book, or shall in like manner state or cause to be stated the mine of the maker of the abridgment.
(v.) The author of a book shall be entitled to restrain and obtain damages for any abridgment published in contravention of the above provisions of the section.
In Sub-section (iv.), leave out from "copyright" to "preceding proviso," both inclusive, and insert "exclusive right of publication of a book."
Clause 8,—
DRAMATISATION OF NOVELS PROHIBITED.
In the case of a hook which is a work of fiction in prose or in verse, it shall he an infringement of the copyright therein if any person shall, without the consent of the owner of the copyright, take or colourably imitate the title of such book, or take from such book any material or substantial part thereof and use or convert it into or adapt it for a dramatic work, or knowing or having reasonable grounds to suspect such dramatic work to have been so made shall perform or permit or cause the same to be performed.
In both places where "book" occurs, leave out "book," and insert "work."
LORD MONKSWELLmoved "That the Debate be adjourned until To-morrow."
Motion agreed to.

FINANCIAL RELATIONS COMMISSION (GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND).
THE EARL OF MAYOasked Her Majesty's Government when the proposed new Commission on the Financial Relations between Great Britain and Ireland was to be appointed?
THE PRIME MINISTER: My Lords, it will be appointed as soon as we have a sufficient number of persons to constitute a Commission, but there is not that passionate desire to take part in the deliberations of the Commission that we could wish. And, as I have already had the pleasure of pointing out to my noble Friend, I think, on another occasion, there is always the difficulty, when you are dealing with Irish subjects, that impartiality is a rarer and more precious gift than it is when you are dealing with English subjects. Selection, therefore, is a matter of considerable difficulty, and, as often happens in these cases, the people who could serve the best are the least willing, and the people who are the most trilling are the least able to render adequate assistance. Under this difficulty we are doing our best, and I have no doubt we shall in a very short time have an adequate Commission to produce. I am merely representing to my
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noble Friend that it is no laches or fault on the part of the Government, but merely the inherent difficulties of the question, that have caused the matter to be delayed for so long.

COTTON CLOTH FACTORIES BILL.
Brought from the Commons; Read 1a; to be printed; and to be Read 2a To-morrow—(Lord Belper.) [No. 177.]
POOR LAW BILL.
Brought from the Commons; Read 1a; to be printed; and to be Read 2a on Monday next—(Lord Harris).—[No. 178.]

SCHOOL BOARDS EXPENSES BILL.
Brought from the Commons; Read 1a; to be printed; and to be Read 2a To-morrow—(The Lord President of the Council).—[No. 179.]
House Adjourned at half-past Five o'Clock, till To-morrow, a Quarter past Ten o'Clock.