Sitting of 21 July 1897

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Order for Committee read.
  The following notices stood upon the Paper relating to the Order for Committee on this Bill:—
  MR. BUCHANAN: To move,—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to repeal part of Section nineteen of the Elementary Education Act 1876."
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: To move,—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make provision for the exemption of Voluntary Schools front local rates."
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIR: To move,—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert clauses in the Bill with a view to making provision for insurine adequate representation of local authorities or parents on the management of Voluntary Schools in receipt of the aid grant."
  MR. SPEAKER: There are three Instructions on the Paper relating to this Bill. The first, which stands in the name of the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire (Mr. Buchanan) is out of order, in the first place, on the ground that it proposes to instruct the Committee to repeal part of Section 19 of the Elementary Education Act 1876." To be in order it should be clear and specific, and should indicate expressly-to the Committee what part of the section it is proposed that it should deal with. But I understand from the hon. Member that his object in placing this Instruction upon the Paper was to remove the 17s. 6d. limit. That would be
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  in itself out of order. The next two Instructions, which stand in the names of the hon. Member for East Donegal (Mr. Arthur O'Connor) and of the hon. and gallant Member for Forfar, are in order.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORmoved—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make provision for the exemption of Vo!untary Schools from local rates."
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire)said that the lion. Gentleman made an appeal to him upon this point on the Second Reading of the Bill, and he had then indicated to the hon. Gentleman that if he found that it was the general desire of the House that what he desired should he carried into effect, he would take his proposal into favourable consideration. The position in Scotland in relation to this subject was not exactly the same as it was in England, but there were many precedents for making these exemptions in cases of chapels and places of that sort. Although there were differences between the two countries with regard to this particular point, still the analogy of the English Act was so strong that he was prepared to accept the Instruction with the view of accepting at the proper time an Amendment- which would carry its object into effect. [" Hear, hear!"]
  MR. T. R. BUCHANANhad no desire to put any obstacle in the way of the object of the hon. Member for East Donegal being carried out. He wished, however, to. say that no information had reached him that would lead him to suppose that there was any general desire in Scotland that this relief should be given to the Voluntary Schools. If, however, that relief were to be accorded to them it should be extended to Board Schools also. He wished to know whether he should be in order in moving to amend the Instruction by striking out the word '' voluntary."
  MR. SPEAKERsaid that such an Amendment would be out of order, because it would have the effect of extending the Instruction to Board Schools, and notice is necessary of any extension of an Instruction.
  MR. J. CALDWELLsaid that, although he had no objection to the object of the Instruction, he was opposed

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  to the subject of relief to schools being dealt with in a fragmentary manner by limiting the relief to the Voluntary Schools instead of extending it to all school buildings that were used solely for the purposes of education. If the Instruction before the House could not be amended in the manner suggested by the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire there were other ways of overcoming the difficulty. ["Hear, hear!"] If the Instruction were withdrawn, the Lord Advocate might bring in a short Bill to extend the relief to all Scotch schools.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRdenied that there was any demand in Scotland for the relief of Voluntary Schools from the rates. ["Hear, hear!"]
  CAPTAIN PIRIEhoped that the Lord Advocate would, on behalf of the Government, give the House a definite promise to include Board Schools within the scope of the exemption. ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. THOMAS SHAWsaid that he should oppose the Instruction on the ground that it would have the effect of increasing the preferential treatment of the Voluntary Schools in Scotland. In the course of the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill the Scotch Members showed that they were opposed to such preferential treatment of Voluntary Schools. As a question of principle it was most objectionable. ["Hear, hear!"]
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNEhad heard with great satisfaction the statement of the Lord Advocate that he intended to accept the Instruction. He had never assented to the doctrine of equivalent grants as between various parts of the United Kingdom; and as Parliament had in its wisdom thought it right to relieve English Voluntary Schools from the burden of rates, the same Measure ought to be extended to the Voluntary Schools in Scotland. ["Hear, hear!"]
  SIR HENRY CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid that he entirely concurred in the statement that no claim for this particular form of relief had been put forward on behalf of the Scotch Voluntary Schools. Still, he would make no objection to the Instruction if it were extended to the Board Schools—[" hear, hear!"]; but he objected to further differences being created
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  between the two classes of schools in a country where it had not been alleged there were the grievances of Voluntary Schools which had been alleged in the case of England, and where the Voluntary Schools occupied a totally different position than in England. [" Hear, hear !"] in England the Voluntary Schools played a great part in the education of the country, while the Scotch Voluntary Schools had played a very small part in the education of Scotland. Nevertheless, they were willing to do every justice to the Voluntary Schools of Scotland; but they were bound to resist this relief being limited to them when the Board Schools were in every sense entitled to it.
  COLONEL DENNYsaid that in the town in which he lived the Voluntary School was the largest school, and the children attending it were the poorest in the town. The people who sent their children to that school made greater pecuniary sacrifice than the people who sent their children to the Board Schools, because they had not only to pay for the fabric of their own school, but they had to contribute their share of the rates which went to maintain the Board Schools; and if, as hon. Gentlemen opposite desired, the Board Schools were exempted from rates, an additional burden would, of course, be placed on those people. The Voluntary Schools were largely supported by the Roman Catholics, and the House was bound to recognise that among them there existed a very strong objection, on religious ground, to sending their children to Board Schools. He would never agree to the Voluntary Schools having a share of the rates unless it were accompanied with popular control; but, with the example of England before them, it would be hard on those schools if, because they were in Scotland, they should be deprived of this small concession of exemption from rates.
  Motion made, and Question put,—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make provision for the exemption of Voluntary Schools from local rates."
  The House divided: —Ayes, 100; Noes, 37.—(Division List, No. 317.)

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  Ordered, That it be au Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make provision for the exemption of Voluntary Schools from local rates.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRmoved—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert clauses in the Bill with a view to making provision for insuring adequate representation of local authorities or parents on the management of Voluntary Schools in receipt of the aid grant."
  This Bill was experimental, but, it was experimental in the direction of reaction rather than in the direction of progress. ["Hear, hear!"] The educational system of Scotland was on totally different lines from the educational system of England. It was not open to the charge that the Voluntary Schools had been badly treated. Their progress during the last 25 years, the enthusiasm for education on the part of Scotchmen, entirely disposed of any such statement. Before the Act of 1872, which introduced the present system, Roman Catholics freely attended the parish schools. At that time there were more Roman Catholics attending the parish schools than the Roman Catholic schools. Those who represented Voluntary Schools in Scotland had always declared that they had no objection to a certain amount of popular control. At present, Voluntary Schools were entirely under the control of the non-representative managers, who were largely clerical, and it was to add a lay element that he had moved the Instruction. In order that education might be carried on in accordance with the feelings of the parents as well as of the managers, he proposed that the local authorities should be represented on the Boards of Management. There was one great argument in favour of the Instruction. In speaking on the Second Reading of the Bill, the Lord Advocate made some alarming statements about Scottish education. He seemed to intimate that it was only to proceed pari passu with English education. The Lord Advocate would find that some of his remarks had very much cooled the ardour of educationalists in Scotland. The mainstay of education in Scotland was the interest and sympathy shown for it by the people at large; and there was no surer way of maintaining that sympathy and interest
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  than by associating the people with the management of the schools, and making them feel that the efficiency of the schools largely depended on them. He commended the Instruction to the Government on the ground that this Measure was a novel departure in Scotch education, and that, therefore, the present time was opportune for considering the question of popular representation. The noble Lord the Member for Rochester had said that it would be unjust that the Voluntary Schools in Scotland should not receive the same assistance as those in England. The noble Lord forgot that while public opinion in England preponderated in favour of the Voluntary School system, it was just the other way in Scotland. In Scotland they desired a wide tolerance for every one, and the recognition of the principle that the success of education depended very much on widening the channels of public interest.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. GRAHAM MURRAY, Buteshire)said that he must contradict the unintentional misrepresentation of what he had said on the Second Reading of the Bill. He had never said that the policy of the future was for Scotland to get no educational advantage unless it had already been secured for England. What he had said was that education was a national interest, in which both countries were entitled to be consulted; and that advantages in connection with secondary education would not be given to Scotland or England without raising a just demand for the same advantages in the other country. But that had very little to do with the question raised by the Instruction, the effect of which was that the managers of Voluntary Schools should no longer be what they were, but should be representative of the local authorities and the parents. The hon. Member was perfectly well aware that in the Roman Catholic schools they would certainly not like such a provision.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIR: There is no evidence of that.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that he did not know what the hon. Member meant by evidence; but he did not think that the hon. Member would venture to contradict the assertion. The hon. Member wished to disturb a system which had worked perfectly well; and in respect of this additional grant of 3s. it would be

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  foolish to do such a thing. The hon. Member spoke of the increase in the Voluntary Schools since 1872. In one sense there had been an increase, and in another, there was not.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRsaid it was the fact that in those bodies which had chosen to maintain the system of Voluntary Schools there had been a marked increase in the number of schools since 1872.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that he was aware of that. But if the schools had increased in number, it was a testimony to the good work which they were doing. What were the conditions under which alone the Voluntary Schools could obtain aid? The school must be one which, in the opinion of the Department, was efficiently contributory to the education of the parish or borough in which it was situate. Then no grant was to be made in respect of any school established after 1872, unless the Department was, after due inquiry, satisfied that no sufficient provision existed for the children for whom the school was intended, regard being had to the rehgious beliefs of the parents. Therefore, there would be nothing but a feeling of satisfaction that the Voluntary Schools had done so well. The House having decided on the Second Reading of this Bill that a further contribution should be granted to these schools, was it worth while to raise the troublesome and thorny question of the management of the schools, when there was no complaint? The general question of popular representation in the sense of being always a necessary concomitant to State aid, was a very large question; and all he would say was that the present time was not opportune for raising the question, especially on a matter of no very great dimensions.
  MR. JAMES BRYCEsaid there was no evidence that the proposal now made would receive any opposition from the Roman Catholic schools, which, of course, were the schools mainly affected; on the contrary, there was every reason to believe that the Roman Catholic schools and their managers entertained no objections to it. Some of the most powerful and influential spokesmen of the Roman Catholic Church in England had spoken in that sense in regard to the English Bill, and he believed
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  similar statements had been made in Scotland by influential authorities there, and, as they knew, the policy of the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church was one over the whole island. And in answer to the argument of the right hon. Gentleman that the moment was inopportune, he could not conceive a more suitable moment for carrying out a suggestion which was on the lines of the whole educational policy of Scotland. The right hon. Gentleman dwelt in the strongest terms on the way in which they were thriving; he did not say a word about the intolerable strain to which they were exposed. That was the foundation of the whole case; but in Scotland the case wisely rested on identity of treatment with England. The right hon. Gentleman did not deny that there was a case for public control; he merely pleaded that the proposal was inopportune. But what better movement could be imagined. This was a moment when without any demand on the part of these schools Parliament was going to give them an additional grant, which was to come out of the pockets of the taxpayers. As the Scottish taxpayers were going to get much less than their share of the money being spent upon education this year, they had all the more reason to desire that their claims in regard to its application should receive fair recognition. It could not be suggested that the demand for sonic measure of local control would operate to the prejudice of those schools. Local control was objected to in England because it was said that an element of religious controversy would be introduced by it in country parishes. That could not happen in the case of Scotland, because the Roman Catholic schools admittedly existed for the sake of Roman Catholic teaching, and any one who went as a member of the local managing body would do so accepting the principle that it was a Roman Catholic school, and not to raise any difficulties about Roman Catholic teaching. He would only go to look after the general education of the school, and to bring the school into relation with the local authority and the local feeling. It was clear that in other respects the school would be benefited, and the town would be benefited by having the Voluntary School, through the representative of the School Board, brought into organic rela-

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  tionship with the School Board and the general educational system of the town. He thought this was as good a time as they could possibly choose, and he hoped they would bring the support of a large body of opinion in the House, as he was sure they should in Scotland.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid the right hon. Gentleman appeared to consider that he was in a position to speak authoritatively for a section of the community of which he was not a Member.
  MR. BRYCE: I merely referred to declarations made by Roman Catholic authorities.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid declarations made on certain occasions were now quoted as if they were applicable to a totally different situation. When tie Roman Catholic authorities proclaimed themselves ready to submit to inspection, audit, and examination by local authorities, they did it on the distinct understanding that they should be admitted to a share of the rates which local authorities dispensed. Give the Roman Catholics a share of the rates and they would submit to any reasonable inspection they liked.
  MR. CALDWELLpointed out that the Roman Catholics had, equally with the Protestants, a voice in the management of School Boards. Thanks to the Cumulative vote, they had a representation which was denied to minorities in other spheres. He admitted that the Roman Catholics were entitled to have Roman Catholic instruction in their schools, but while admitting that principle in its entirety, they had also to take this into consideration, that in Scotland they had wade provision for the religious instruction being taken at a different time from the ordinary secular instruction of the school. Any parent might withdraw his child from the religious instruction, and no child was to suffer on account of not attending religious instruction, and this applied to Protestant and Roman Catholic schools. In Scotland, therefore, they brought the element of controversy within a very small compass indeed, but the case was different. in England. With regard to the rest of the Instruction, the hours set apart for religious instruction were public property. There was nothing unfair, if Roman Catholics were allowed representation on Board Schools in Scotland, in giving a certain
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  amount of popular representation on the Roman Catholic schools, not to interfere with religious instruction, but with the view of having some little representation as to the teaching beyond the religious instruction. That was all they asked. Representation of the public would give this advantage—that they could see, apart from the man being a Roman Catholic, whether he was a proper teacher and whether he was teaching in such a way that even a Protestant child could go to the school if necessary. It would also secure that the teacher should be paid for his services in the school, and that his services were not applied to sonic other purposes connected with the denomination. He frankly admitted that in the case of Voluntary Schools, especially in the case of Roman Catholics, that there was a great advantage in Scotland, because it was found that if the interest was kept up in the attendance in these schools the grant was materially helped. He referred particularly to the case of Glasgow, where the average attendance of Protestant children was 86 per cent., and the Roman Catholics 85 per cent. This was largely due to the fact that the managers of the last named schools voluntarily took an interest in them which no public body would take in developing, them. He was in favour of these schools remaining, with the popular element in them, but this was not inconsistent with a certain amount of popular control which would not interfere with the religious teaching. As Voluntary Schools in Scotland were increasing year by year, it could not be said that they were badly treated. He admitted that the Voluntary Schools in England were decreasing year by year, notwithstanding the increase of population, and to meet that decrease it had been found necessary to prop them up a little more.
  MR. J. A. CAMPBELLagreed with many of the remarks of the last speaker as to the satisfactory work accomplished by the Board School system in Scotland, but he wished now to return to the question more immediately before the House. The right hon. Member for South Aberdeen referred to expressions which had been made by governors of Voluntary Schools to the effect that they would welcome some measure of local assistance in the management of their schools. He

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  thought that the argument which the right hon. Gentleman drew had been shattered by the remarks of the hon. Member for East Donegal. When it was said that some local assistance of the kind would not be objected to, he believed that such a statement was only made when there was a question of claiming a share of the school rate. Managers of Voluntary Schools in Scotland had abstained from claiming a share of the school rate, and as a counterpoise they had claimed to be continued undisturbed in the management of their schools. The denominational management of the Voluntary Schools was the price that was paid for giving them no share of the school rate. Let the Voluntary Schools ask for a share of the school rate, and then they might with justice be required to admit an adequate representation of local authorities on the management. But the two things must stand apart; and this Instruction would deprive Voluntary Schools of their distinctive character.
  MR. ALEXANDER CROMBIEreminded the House of the extreme liberalism of the Scottish educational system. The Roman Catholics not only had the compensating advantage of being represented on the School Board, but if they possessed a majority they could actually force Roman Catholic teaching on the School Board. This fact was a complete answer to any case of hardship. The second argument against the Instruction was that so long as the Voluntary Schools did not participate in the rates they bought the privilege of being relieved from any outside control. That was a somewhat feasible argument, but the moment they accepted this grant they had practically participated, because the grant would materially help them with their subscriptions. The Lord Advocate thought that it would be unfair that outside religions should be introduced on the management of Roman Catholic schools, but his own theory was that this Amendment was not designed to allow the outside public any management on the Board, but to give some representation of the parents in the school.
  MR. PARKER SMITHwould like to see public control given on these schools, Roman Catholic as well as Episcopalian; indeed, he would like to see the Voluntary Schools
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  cease altogether, all parties being content to accept their excellent Scottish system. The whole question was on an absolutely different footing in Scotland; the Roman Catholic schools were under the management of their own body, and they were increasing in number. But they did not claim or receive any part of the support from the rates. As long as they did not, he did not see how the House could sanction the claim that the local authorities ought to have any share in the control. He hoped that the Department, in giving this extra three shillings, would insist on greater efficiency, but he failed to follow the argument that on the strength of an additional Treasury grant an additional representation should be put into the hands of the local authorities.
  Question put,—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert clauses in the Bill with a view to making provisions for insuring adequate representations of local authorities or parents on the management of voluntary schools in receipt of the aid giant."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 48; Noes, 131.—(Division List, No. 318.)
  Bill considered in Committee.
  [The CHAIRMAN Of WAYS and MEANS, Mr. J. W. LOWTHER, in the Chair.]
  Clause 1,—

  ALTERATION OF LIMIT OF 7S. 6D. IN REGARD TO ADDITIONAL GRANT TO SCHOOL BOARDS UNDER S. 67 OF EDUCATION (SCOTLAND) ACT, 1872.
  Section sixty-seven of the Education (Scotland) Act 1872 shall have effect as if the sum of seven shillings and sixpence therein mentioned were increased by the sum of fourpence for every complete penny by which the school rate therein mentioned exceeded threepence, but not beyond a maximum of sixteen shillings and sixpence. Provided always that during the year ending the fifteenth day of May, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-eight, the increased additional grant payable to any school board under this section shall suffer abatement to the extent of one third in respect of the period between the fifteenth day of May, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-seven, and the twenty-ninth day of September, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-eight.
  On the return of the CHAIRMAN of WAYS and MEANS, after the usual interval,
  THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved to leave out the words "therein mentioned." This was, he said, merely a drafting Amendment. There was a mention of the year in the English Bill and the rate during the year "herein mentioned." There was no mention of t he year in the Scotch Bill, and, therefore, it was not necessary to retain these words.
  MR. CALDWELLsaw no reason why the words should be taken out. There was a description of the rate in the clause, and he could not make out why the words "therein mentioned" would not be inserted in the Bill.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he might explain further if the hon. Gentleman thought it necessary. The whole produce of a rate of not less than 3d. had always been interpreted as being the produce of a 3d. rate. To leave out the words "therein mentioned" would leave no margin for discussion.
  Amendment agreed to.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved to leave out "ninety-eight" and to insert "ninety-seven."
  Amendment agreed to.
  On the question "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill,"
  MR. T. SHAWcomplained that the Bill made no distinction between the Highland and Lowland areas, although there was a great distinction in the administrative treatment of the two parts of the country. It would be deplorable if the grants were to be given under a cast-iron system which had been imported from England. It would be deeply regretted if there should be any withdrawal. Irma the Highland schools of the money already devoted to higher education. He did not propose to move the rejection of the clause, but it was manifest that this clause was not made in the Scotch Office, and that it was brought in not with the purpose of attending to the specific needs of education as a whole in Scotland, but to introduce a symmetry which was not only reactionary but
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  absurd. A serious danger would be encountered unless the undertaking given by the right hon. Gentleman on the Second Reading, that the grants made under this clause, were not to be used for the purpose of minimising grants already, existing ill the Highland area, were not carried out in the fullest sense. He referred to the Report of the Committee of Council on the condition of Education in the Highlands. The grants for the Highland districts amounted to £13,331, and one of the main objects of the grants was that there should be preserved for these localities some amount of higher education. He hoped his right hon. Friend would assure the Committee that there would be no withdrawal of any part of these funds.
  MR. R. B. HALDANEsaid he felt it impossible, to move the rejection of this clause, but at the same time he would respectfully complain of this mode of tariff. It was not a plan which would have been adopted naturally in the Scotch Office. It was a plan which worked out in the most arbitrary fashion. Not only in the case of the Highlands was there a marked discrepancy between the results, but even in regard to the parishes in the Lowland constituencies they were face to face with great difficulties. It was to be expected that Haddingtonshire would come off badly, because the representative of that constituency gave so little trouble to the Government. He cited the case of the parish in that county which was famous as the birthplace of John Knox. It was a necessitous parish, and yet they could not get any assistance, because it was a small parish with very few scholars. This Bill was not drawn so as to meet the necessities of the Scottish parishes, but was taken from a model, and they were suffering from the dogma of uniformity which had been introduced into Scottish education as an illustration of the policy of the Government south of the Tweed.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid the two speeches to which they had listened showed a. singular misconception of what this clause was. This was not a question between the well-fed Lowlands and the hungry Highlands. The Bill gave some relief where the ratepayer was undoubtedly poorest, and the rate produced an abnormally small sunk. The idea of assistance from

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  Imperial money where the produce of a local rate was abnormally small, was as much as a Scotch as an English idea. All the Bill did was to come to the assistance of the distressed ratepayer in a neighbourhood where the rate did not bring in a normal amount. The aid grant was given not only on account of the poverty of certain Highland parishes, but of the exceptional disadvantages those parishes were under. Owing to the sparseness of population and the great distance which divided one parish from another, it cost more to provide good education within a distance available to children. The parish alluded to by the hon. Member for Haddingtonshire, although the birthplace of John Knox, did not produce an abnormally small rate, so it could not be helped, as it did not come within the mischief the clause sought to remedy.
  MR. BUCHANANcomplained of the way in which the Bill differentiated between School Board and Voluntary School education in Scotland. Clause I would aid poor parishes and necessitous Board Schools; but he understood that Clause 2 was not limited to necessitous Voluntary Schools. The Government were only aiding necessitous Board Schools, but giving the aid grant generally to Voluntary Schools. The aid grant under Clause 2 was fixed at 3s. per head; the aid grant given to necessitous Board Schools under Clause 1 was a variable grant. The latter had proved to be a decreasing grant, and if the prosperity of the country decreased the grant must necessarily decrease. The Bill differentiated unfairly against the National system of education in Scotland. Attention had been called to the anomalies that would exist in the treatment of some parts of Scotland and others. In the town of Frazerburgh there were 900 children attending the Board Schools and 700 attending the Voluntary Schools. The subscribers to the Voluntary Schools were of the same class as the ratepayers of the town. The latter under Clause 1 of this Bill would get nothing, but those who supplied part of the rate aid to the Voluntary Schools would get 3s. per head. How did the matter stand on its financial side? Under Clause 2 £12,000 would be given to Voluntary Schools, and £41,000 would be given to Board Schools under Clause I. But eight times as many children were educated in Board
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  Schools as in Voluntary Schools. So the proposals of the Bill were grossly unfair to the popular system of education in Scotland. He contended that it would have been simple and more equitable if they had taken the 3s. grant and given it all round. This would have obviated the anomalies and disparities he had called attention to. For the first time the Government were introducing a spirit of jealousy and hostility on the part of Voluntary Schools a ml their managers.
  MR. PARKER SMITHsaid the hon. and learned Member who had spoken seemed to think that equality was equity. He himself contended that the Government were acting in an equitable spirit, and were going to give money to parishes where it was most wanted.
  MR. CALDWELLremarked that the Bill did not deal with the matter from an educational point of view. If the money had been given at the rate of 3s. per head all round it might have been given in such a way that the different schools would have spent the money in promoting higher education, which would have assisted educational progress all over the country. But where did the money go to? The hon. Member for Partick said it went where it was wanted. The whole of the money went to the relief of the ratepayers, and education in these districts would not be one copper advantaged so far as this expenditure was concerned. Whom would the money benefit? It would benefit the ratepayers. Of the £41,000, one half went direct into the pockets of the landlord; and the other half went to the deer forest tenants and big farmers, the amount that would fall to the share of the poor crofters being infinitesimal. It was, therefore, a ratepayers' question; it was the question of a subsidy of about £40,000, one half of which went to the landlords in certain parishes and the greater portion of the other half to the deer forest tenants and other large ratepayers. He objected to money going in that particular way, when it might be much better spent in the promotion of secondary education. The hon. and learned Member for Haddington struck a clear note when he said this money gave no relief where relief was most needed, namely, in the smaller parishes. Much might be done by the use of some of this

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  money in obtaining educational efficiency in the smaller parishes, but as it was, the money would go to the relief of the ratepayers, and would not advance education one iota.
  COLONEL DENNYdid not say he did not agree with the majority of the Scotch Members in thinking the money might have been better spent, or at any rate, better allocated, but it was no use in making Second Reading speeches now that the principle had been passed. The contention of the hon. Member for Mid Lanark was, that this money was going to be entirely wasted—one half to be given to the landlords and the other half scrambled for by the deer forest tenants and the crofters. He thought they had a higher character in Scotland than that. He did not think I here was a single board in Scotland which would use this money for the purpose of recouping the landlords, the deer forest tenants, or the crofters. He had considerable knowledge of the way in which educational bodies conducted their business, and he entirely denied that there was the least danger of the money to be handed over to Scotland being used for the. purpose of relieving the rates instead of in the promotion of education.
  DR. CLARKremarked that during the period he had had a seat in that House this would be the third grant that had been voted for Scotland, and in every instance such grant had been used for the purpose of reducing the School Board rate. He was afraid that this money would go in the same direction, namely, in the relief of the rates, instead of in furthering the efficiency of education. No settlement of this question could be final which did not proceed upon Scotch instead of upon English lines, and which (lid not add to the efficiency of education rather than the reduction of the rates.
  Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Clause 2,—

  AID GRANT OF 3s. PER CHILD TO VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS.
  For aiding Voluntary Schools there shall be annually paid out of money provided by Parliament an aid grant equal to three shillings per child for the whole number of children
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  in average attendance in those schools, and that grant shall be distributed in such manner and in accordance with such conditions as may be set forth in the Scotch Education Code annually submitted to Parliament.
  For the purposes of Section nineteen of the Elementary Education Act 1876, in so far as it relates to Scotland, the aid grant paid or payable to a Voluntary School shall be deemed to be income derived from a source other than the Parliamentary grant.
  The expression "Voluntary School" means a State-aided school not provided by a school heard.
  MR. BUCHANANno to leave out the words "For aiding," and to insert the words "To each." He desired to know whether the intention of the clause was to pay a grant of 3s. per head to each Voluntary School in Scotland for the number of children in average attendance in such school, or to make a general aid grant to Voluntary Schools, of which the total amount should he assessed on the number of scholars in the schools multiplied by 3s. The Amendment would make it perfectly clear that the intention of the clause was that each Voluntary School should only be paid an aid grant of 3s. per head on the whole number in average attendance. That was the object he had in view in this Amendment, and it was important that the Lord Advocate should make clear what the intention of the clause was, because there had arisen in the minds of many of them, certain doubts on the subject. He begged to move the Amendment. He desired, so far us he could, fully to understand the operation of the clause, and so far as it could be done, to eliminate from the clause those prejudicial elements its which were contained in the English Act.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he thought he could quiet the suspicions of the hon. Member as to the intentions of the Department, and show there was no necessity to accept the Amendment. There were no associations at present in Scotland, and certainly there was no intention in the Department to do any-thing but that of which the hon. Gentleman had expressed approval, to pay the grant calculated on the number of children in attendance to each school. Of course there was a certain amount of elasticity in the Code, as there always had been, but the elasticity was under the check and control of Parliament. The grants were to be expended in such

  659
  manner as was set forth in the Code, and assuming there were any conditions imposed to which objection was felt, the hon. Member or any of his friends would have the ordinary way of challenging the policy of the Education Department, and the House could control the action of the Department. Frankly and unhesitatingly he declared the clause was not intended to mask any contemplated change or to take other than the course which appeared to commend itself to he hon. Member. It must be admitted that it would not be desirable to stereotype the conditions, absolutely making them invariable and outside the power of Parliament to vary according to circumstances by means short of actual legislation. The hon. Gentleman could scarcely expect him to say that while the Government felt that in the English Act association would be a good thing, they held that in Scotland it would be such, a bad thing that under no circumstances should such a system be created. He knew of no movement in favour of association in Scotland, and it was quite certain that the Bill did not do as the English Act did, encourage the formation of associations; but at the same time he did not think it would be at all an advantage to have this matter stereotyped for all time. There was nothing so radically bad in the idea of association that it was an evil to be avoided, and he hoped the hon. Member would be content with the frank declaration that there was no intention of paying the money in other than the ordinary way. The hon. Member took a strong view of the evils of the system of association, and in the clause as it stood there was the check that Parliamentary control gave.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSONasked the Lord Advocate to make a little more plain what he meant by control of the Department which he said the House possessed. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of the usual means of control over the conditions devised by the Education Department; but he did not explain how that control was to be exercised.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he meant the means surely familiar to the hon. Gentleman. The Code had to be laid on the Table, and it was always in the power of any Member to move an Address
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  praying Her Majesty to withhold assent to those portions of the Code to which objection was taken.
  MR. BUCHANANdesired to say that so far as the Lord Advocate was concerned he entirely accepted the assurance given; he might say the promise given, that no such proposal as he had referred to would be made, but as regarded the Department he could not say that the assurance satisfied him, or allayed his fear that such, a change might be introduced. Do what they would they could not disabuse their minds of the fact that there was the precedent of the English Act, and over and over again they had been told that this Scottish Act followed the English model. If the right hon. Gentleman would not accept these words, would he accept others of a. limiting character? He had pointed out that the provision in the clause was subject to the reservation of Parliamentary control, because the conditions would have to be inserted in the Code, and the Code had to be laid before Parliament; but the Lord Advocate knew as well as any one how far there was substantial Parliamentary control over the details of the Education Code. It was well known how exceedingly difficult it was to get any modification made by the action of the House in the Code or in any of the Minutes of the Education Department. At the present time a considerable majority of the Members from Scotland were on the Opposition side of the House, and supposing a proposal introduced into the Code by a Government having only as many Scotch votes as now, or even less, as had been the case in the past, the Government might and would carry the obnoxious provision in the Code, notwithstanding an overwhelming protest from Scotch Members. Parliamentary control was practically nugatory. The Code had to be laid before Parliament, not merely before the House of Commons, but also before the House of Lords; but what chance had the political opinions predominant in Scotland in the House of Lords? ["Hear, hear!"] What had been recent experience in a matter of this kind? You might have an Ordinance laid before Parliament and supported by a responsible Minister of the Crown on behalf of his Department, and then the Prime Minister might get up and upset the proposal and defeat his own col-

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  league. ["Hear, hear!"] The control offered by laying the Code before Parliament was absolutely nugatory. Under the Statute as it at present existed—the right hon. Gentleman would correct him if wrong—all grants paid from the Exchequer to Voluntary Schools had to be paid over to the managers of each school, and that Section 67 of the Act of 1872, unless any alteration were made by the present Bill, would still apply. Could not the Lord Advocate, if he would not accept these words, take one of the suggestions in subsequent Amendments that payment should be made directly to each Voluntary School in proportion to the number of scholars in average attendance in such school? He was perfectly certain that the expectation at the present moment, the fixed expectation of managers of Voluntary Schools in Scotland was in this direction, and if they found that owing to the vague words of the clause it would be possible for this or a future Government so to alter the distribution of the money under a clause of the Code that it might be banded over to an association or group of schools, there would be grievous disappointment and a sense of being grossly deceived.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRthought this was a most extraordinary proposal for Scottish legislation. The words of the clause were practically taken from the English Act dealing with Voluntary Schools, though, as the Lord Advocate very truly said, there were no Voluntary School associations in Scotland. No; nor before the passing of the Act were there any such associations in England. He sincerely hoped they were not to look forward in Scotland to being involved in a struggle between diocesan and county authorities, such as was now going on in England. ["Hear, hear!"] Clearly, by the clause, the door was left open for the payment of the grant in lump sums to representative bodies. It was deliberately left open to the Department to adopt this method of payment, and everyone would see that it would be the simplest and easiest method for the Department. There was no question of necessitous schools. He would like to see the word "necessitous" put in. No obligation was imposed on the Department, and it stood to reason that the simplest method for the Department to adopt would be to
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  hand over lump sums to be distributed by each ecclesiastical body. The present fee grant was paid to the managers of each Voluntary School, and if such was the intention of the Government in reference to this grant, why not enact in the Bill that the grant should be distributed in that way? He hoped the point would not be left open, incurring the risk of sacrifice of educational efficiency by involving the country in disputes of this kind.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANagreed with his hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen that if the Lord Advocate, with the views he had expressed a few minutes ago, were to be permanently an influential element in the management of the matter, then it might be left where he had left it. He confessed there was some strength in the argument his right hon. Friend used in favour of a little elasticity as between school and school—a certain amount of elasticity, a very moderate amount of elasticity appealed to one's sense of fitness. But, on the other hand, was there not something practically ridiculous in having a provision imported into the Bill from the English Act which contemplated another state of things altogether? As had been said, there were no associations in Scotland, and there was no provision in the Bill for setting up associations. They were not wanted in Scotland because Voluntary Schools were scattered and few in number, while in England they were all over the country. If associations were set up in Scotland the position would come to be that pointed out by his hon. Friend—that the money would be handed over straight to the governing bodies of separate religious communions, and they might treat it as an asset of the communion to be dealt with for educational purposes. The Lord Advocate endeavoured to console Scotch Members by pointing out that there would still be some Parliamentary control over the particular provisions of the Code by which this distribution would be made, but that was in no case a satisfactory arrangement. They all knew what an illusion such a control as that was. To begin with, any question of that sort came on in the small hours of the morning. There was noting more repulsive to a Member of Parliament than to have to sit up and take part in such discussions. But, after

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  all, the control that would be exercised in this manner would be exercised by English Members, and not by the Scotch Members alone. For all these reasons he thought his hon. Friend was quite justified in the apprehensions they entertained. He would urge most earnestly on the right hon. Gentleman that, with his great ingenuity, he might introduce some words which would prevent the state of things his hon. Friends wished to guard against, while maintaining that small guarantee of elasticity to which the right hon. Gentleman attached importance.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he had no cause to complain of the way in which hon. Gentlemen had received his declaration. He would remind the Committee that there was no such thing as an association in Scotland, and there was no desire expressed in favour of them; yet he was asked to say that if there ever was such a thing, it would be a bad body to pay this money to. He preferred to wait until there was any necessity to say that. Although his right hon. Friend opposite had pictured in harrowing terms the hardship of hon. Members in being kept out of their beds, and although it was true that when small matters of detail were being argued the House did not readily listen at Two o'clock in the, morning, still, if this great thing was going to be done, if this tremendous change in educational policy was to be made, then there would be a question of such magnitude before the House that he was quite sure that hon. Members would be in a position to ask the Leader of the House to give them a more favourable opportunity for discussing it. As regarded the little interlude in the House of Lords, he could not see that that had anything to do with the matter, because, after all, the House of Lords had not the power of forcing the Code down the throats of hon. Members. The House of Commons was not parting with all control. Hon. Members would be able to raise the question if the necessity arose, and accordingly he could not help thinking they would be perfectly safe in leaving the Bill as it stood.
  DR. CLARKcontended that the Gov-eminent ought to make up their minds whether this money was to go to special schools or to associations. At present the Bill was so drawn that they had
  664
  neither one thing nor the other. They should have exact phraseology in an Act of Parliament. Why should the Government leave the matter open? If any of these little questions did come up on education, how did Scotch Members stand? They were opposed by the Episcopalians, and in all educational matters the Irish Roman Catholics would go hand in hand with the Episcopalians. ["Hear, hear!"] He did not see why the Scotch should be placed at the mercy of the Irish Roman Catholics and the English Episcopalians. He thought the matter ought to be determined here. ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. CALDWELLsaid that this Amendment was in the interests of the Voluntary Schools of Scotland, and the Government had adopted the language of the English Bill. In the case of Scotland it was notorious that the method of distribution at present was to each school. There was no provision in the Code for giving money to a certain class of schools. What they wanted to make sure of was this—that the Scotch system was to be continued—namely, that each Voluntary School should have an absolute right to this 3s., and that it should not be possible for any Government to so regulate the money as to give more to one school and less to another. It was obvious that a clause which was intended to work in England in a collective way was not suitable to the Scotch system. Each Voluntary School ought to have an indefeasible right to the 3s.
  Question put, "That the words 'For aiding' stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided: —Ayes, 155; Noes, 76.—(Division List, No. 319.)
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRmoved, after the word "aiding," to insert the word "necessitous." He moved the Amendment in the hope that they would be able to elicit what the policy of the Government was going to be as to the application of this money. As the Bill stood the money might be handed over to all schools. He thought it should be laid down that only schools necessitous from an educational point of view should be benefited.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid it would be quite improper to pay the grant to a school which was not rendering efficient service. Undoubtedly it was intended

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  that the grant should be paid to the whole of the Voluntary Schools, Voluntary Schools being defined as a State-aided school.
  DR. CLARKhoped his hon. Friend would not press the Amendment, because its adoption would result in money being taken from Scotland. Scotch Members ought to profit by the example set by the Irish Members, and try to get as much money as they could for their own country.
  MR. J. H. DALZIELsaid he had a very vivid recollection of the hon. Member for Caithness strenuously opposing and throwing out a grant of public money in aid of his own constituency. [A laugh.] While they were anxious to get as much money as they could for Scotland, they were anxious that the money should be properly expended. The case for the Bill was that there was an urgent demand for increased support of Voluntary Schools. It seemed to him that the money granted ought to be distributed amongst the schools which really deserved it, but without this Amendment it might be given to flourishing and poor schools alike.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRexplained that under his Amendment Scotland would not get less money, but the money would be given to the schools which needed it.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. THOMAS SHAWmoved, after the word "paid," to insert the words "to the managers or governing, bodies thereof." He hoped that those recipients were not to be associations, because associations would undoubtedly be of a clerical and denominational character. It might be quite proper to have denominational associations working together for the common interests of the denominations, but to enable them to have a grip over the funds would be indefensible on financial grounds.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEopposed the Amendment, remarking that it was quite uncalled for, the principle having been decided by the last Amendment.
  MR. BUCHANANhoped the Motion would be put from the Chair.
  MR. CALDWELLsupported the Amendment, pointing out that. the 17s. 6d. limit did not exist in Scotland.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 75; Noes, 160. (Division List, No. 329.)
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRmoved, after the word "Parliament," to insert the words,—
  "in such manner and amounts as the Scottish Education Department may think best for the purpose of increasing the efficiency of these schools, due regard being had to the maintenance of voluntary subscriptions."
  He wanted to have some distinct indication in the Bill of the purpose to which this grant to the Voluntary Schools was to be applied. It was within the knowledge of the Committee that four-fifths of the cost of maintenance of these Voluntary Schools was borne by Parliamentary money and only one-fifth was left to be borne by the Voluntary Schools themselves. Surely it was not too much to ask, that in anything that might be done for the Voluntary Schools, there should be nothing, to weaken the local interest in the schools, as evidenced by the local subscriptions. Again, there should be in the Bill some indication that the money should he applied solely for increasing the efficiency of the schools. Anything that was done towards securing that the money would be spent in the interest of education in the Voluntary Schools would be an advantage to the country at large.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEdid not think the Amendment was at all necessary. The Education Department might be trusted to see that the money was only used for increasing the efficiency of the schools. The words of the Amendment wire necessary in the case of the English Bill, because the position of the Voluntary Schools in England was different from the position occupied by the Voluntary Schools in Scotland.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid they hail been discussing this Bill with the English Act over them. They hail been told, "You cannot do this" or "You cannot do that, because we must follow the lines of the English Bill."

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  That was the answer they got to everything they proposed; and now, when his hon. Friend proposed words which were actually taken textually from the English Bill, and were every bit as applicable in Scotland as in England, the Lord Advocate said they were not at all necessary, and that there was sufficient control by the Department without them. If that were so, why were they put into the English Bill? There was a long discussion on the point, in the case of the English Bill, and it was agreed by those who had any real knowledge of the subject, that it was absolutely necessary to secure that the money given to the schools should go, not to the relief of subscription, but to increasing the efficiency of the schools; and that argument applied with equal force to Scotland.
  MR. PARKER SMITHhoped that the Amendment, would be accepted. Parliament should give an indication to the Department that it expected to get something, for its money.
  SIR CHARLES CAMERONsupported the appeal. The Lord Advocate was asking that a blank cheque should be given to his Department; and that was not given to the English Department.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid that the circumstances of the Voluntary Schools in England mid Scotland were quite different. In England the Voluntary Schools were the majority, and were mostly in the rural districts. In Scotland the Voluntary Schools were mostly attended by the children of the poor labouring class, in the congested districts. If the words referring to the maintenance of voluntary subscriptions were accepted, it would mean that from time to time, when trade was bad, the supporters of these schools would be fined for their very poverty. The words would operate very prejudicially and unfairly on those who had made heroic efforts to maintain their schools.
  MR. CALDWELLhoped that the Amendment would be accepted. The Roman Catholic schools were very well managed, but the Episcopalian schools had the lowest cost of maintenance of any. Without this Amendment the grant would simply go in aid of subscriptions, instead of bringing the Episcopalian schools to a. higher state of efficiency. The Amendment was exactly in the
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  words of the English Act, which the Government had hitherto insisted on following. Let the Government give Scotland an English Bill or a Scotch Bill, but not a mixture of the two.
  SIR JAMES FERGUSSONsaid that the argument of the hon. Member amounted to this—that the Roman Catholics were to be penalised to place an additional burden on the Episcopalians, who seemed an offence to the hon. Member's nostrils. [Mr. CALDWELL "Hear, hear!" and laughter.] The Amendment would not be applicable to Scotland.
  MR. E. ROBERTSONsaid that there ought to be no difference in the treatment of one set of voluntarists and another. These words, which were taken direct from the English Act, did not impose any special burden. They simply required that the grant should be devoted to increasing the efficiency of the schools, and that the voluntary character of the school should be maintained.
  *MR. ROBINSON SOUTTARpointed out to the Lord Advocate that the words were not obligatory; they only gave the Deparment a cerain lead. Personally he was very glad that the Roman Catholics were to get a little money, but he believed the managers of those Voluntary Schools and the teachers in them would be exceedingly thankful if the right hon. Gentleman would accept the Amendment, for there was a certain dread that without it the money would just be wasted.
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY, Inverness Burghs)could not help thinking that it would be better the words should not be inserted. The hon. Member had not had sufficient regard to the fact that the English Bill was not identical with the Scotch. The English Bill was founded on the principle of discrimination for the purpose of helping necessitous schools; but the words now proposed did not include the words which were in the English Act—that the distribution was to be for the purpose of helping necessitous schools. Of course, the Department would have regard to "the efficiency of these schools," and, as far as they could have regard to it, no doubt they would also look to "the maintenance of voluntary subscriptions." He could not think that in the Scotch Bill the words were necessary.
  MR. LEONARD COURTNEYsuggested that the Government should endeavour to bring forward some more substantial objection than the objection that the Amendment was not necessary. It was not a good fashion of conducting a Bill through the House to object to a proposal on no better ground than that. There was no enforced obligation in this provision to keep up the subscriptions to any fixed standard or even to maintain them as they were. All that was intended was, he admitted, the introduction merely of a moral maxim that due regard should be had to the maintenance of subscriptions. The moderating effect of the word "due" seemed to have been overlooked. The hon. Member for Donegal was unduly severe on the hon. Member for Partick, who avowed a desire to see ultimately only Board School teaching in Scotland. He shared the desire of his hon. Friend in regard to England, but that had never blinded him to the duty of doing full justice to Voluntary Schools in England. [Opposition cheers.] Until he could convert the sentiments of his fellow-men in England he must and would give to the Voluntary Schools all the rights to which they were entitled. The Roman Catholic Schools in Scotland, which formed by far the most important portion of the Voluntary Schools in that country, deserved the utmost consideration but it was desirable in Scotland, as in England, that they should have some maxim of this kind put in, if only to strengthen the Department in dealing with the schools, and also the teachers in seeing that they got from those persons who professed to be devoted—as they were most loyally devoted—to Voluntary Schools, that support which lay in the punctual payment of subscriptions for their maintenance. He hoped the Lord Advocate would yield to the invincible arguments arising, not only from the nature of the case, but from the precedent of the English Act.
  VISCOUNT CRANBOENEdid not quite take the view of his right hon. Friend. He did not approve of all the details of the English Act, and in particular he objected to the extreme vagueness of the term "due regard." Of course, he admitted that certain regard ought to be had to voluntary subscriptions, but what the precise legal effect of "due regard"
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  was be never could make out; and he did not understand it now. By the Amendment everything would be left to the pure discretion of the Education Department, without any necessity whatever of its being subject to any code or regulation to be laid before this House. ["No!"] As he did not approve of the words in the English Act, so he objected to them in the Scotch Act.
  MR. THOMAS SHAWthought the noble Lord had misapprehended the purpose of the Amendment. What the Committee was considering was whether there should be something superadded to the vague and unsatisfactory control which Parliament would have over this matter as the Bill stood. Why should Parliament not be consistent? He hoped that the Government would yield to the widespread desire on the subject that Scotland should not be deprived of those advantages which had been conferred upon England by the English Act. It would seem, however, that the Government, instead of attempting to satisfy a universal demand in Scotland, had abandoned the principle of making the Scottish Act symmetrical with that of England, a policy for which no defence had been offered. The Scottish Members were therefore bound to protest against this departure.
  MR J. A. CAMPBELLbelieved that the Amendment would be welcome to the managers and teachers of Voluntary Schools. if the Lord Advocate had no stronger objection to offer to the Amendment than that the words were unnecessary, he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would yield to the expression of opinion in the House and accept the Amendment.
  MR. BUCHANANtrusted that the Government would pay some heed to the practically unanimous expression of Scottish opinion on this point. This was an Amendment designed to make the Bill effective educationally. As the Bill now stood it would confer no benefit on education in Scotland whatever. There could be no doubt as to the purpose of the Amendment namely, that the money given to Voluntary Schools should be given for an increase of their efficiency.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he was anxious not to take too stiff an attitude on this matter, but there were real difficulties in accepting the Amendment as

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  it stood. It came in at an inconvenient place—["no, no!"]—and seemed to suggest methods of discrimination which were foreign to the real purposes of the Bill. If the hon. Member would agree not to press the Amendment he would consider the matter with. the Education authorities, and allow the subject to be raised again on Report, in order to see whether he could meet the views which had been expressed.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANasked whether the right hon. Gentleman contemplated putting in some, words on Report?
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid that he could not give an absolute pledge that he would put words in on Report; but he would consider whether he could not devise words which would satisfy the views of hon. Members.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid that the Scottish Members felt very strongly on this subject, and a Division had the good effect of driving the nail home, while marking the strong feeling entertained. If the House Divided he hoped that the Lord Advocate would still keep open that disposition and elastic frame of mind which he had indicated. [Laughter.]
  MR. PARKER SMITHurged that a Division should not be taken in view of what the Lord Advocate had promised.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 93; Noes, 163. (Division List, No. 321.)
  DR. CLARKsaid there was one other particular in which this Bill differed from the English Bill. The latter gave 5s. for each scholar in a Voluntary School; this Bill gave only 3s. He had been trying to understand, on information obtained from the Government on previous stages of the Bill, the reason why only 3s. was granted; but he had failed, and he should now move to leave out the word "three," in the hope that the Lord Advocate would move to insert "five" instead, or give some decent and satisfactory reason why the 3s. should remain. Scotch educational finance was complicated, and he would try to make it clear to the Committee. He had watched it carefully from the beginning, and now this change was
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  being made he wanted to understand it to the end. When the Local Government Bill was passed, and they (the Scotch) got their probate and licence duties, they used the whole of the money for education. But in 1892 a change was made; when the English education grant was raised Scotland got an equivalent grant, and the Act was modified. Instead of using the whole of the probate duty for educational purposes, by that Act they took away £265,000 for higher education and local rates; but they got £265,000 that year—so they lost nothing by the Act of 1892—they gave away £265,000 for higher education, for the universities, and for local purposes, and they gained £265,000. Since they they had never had less than £265,000; they had always had more, and this year they were getting £310,000, so that they were practically £40,000 better off. Up till now they had been able to pay 12s. both to Board Schools and to Voluntary Schools. They had been able to pay it from their Probate Duty and from their equivalent grant, because the £265,000 they gave away was only a portion the residue remained; so that as far as that was concerned he hoped the Committee would see that the question of the 1265,000 did not affect them at all, because they had got from the first day till now much more. From 1889 till now they had been able to pay the 12s. But they were told that they would not be able to pay it in the future, and he wanted to know the reason why they would not be able to pay it in the future. The only other change that had been made was the change made last year, when, instead of getting eleven-eightieths of the English grant they got 10s. per head. Now, was this loss which would prevent them in the future paying 12s. per head both to Board Schools and to Voluntary Schools; was it due to the fact that they had changed from the eleven-eightieths to the 10s.? Because their position was exactly as it was in the beginning. They had got the Probate Duty, and they had got the equivalent grant. He took it that the growth of wealth in Scotland and in England and the produce of the Probate Duty was a constantly increasing factor; and he could not understand why, after having for a number of years been paying this 12s., they suddenly discovered that for

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  some reason or other they would be unable to pay it. He believed that the Scotch Office, or the Education Department, had made a deal with the Treasury. It. was possible—and when the reasons were given they would be able to see to what extent this bargain was favourable to them or against them—it was quite possible that it might be a. good thing for Scotland. If it was, he should be entirely in favour of it; but at the present time, knowing the acts of the Treasury in the past, he did not think the Treasury would consent to any good thing for Scotland, and he was, therefore, rather suspicious about it, and thought it was rather a good thing for the Treasury than a good thing for Scotland. Well, then, they had been able to pay the 12s. till now; and it was quite possible when they heard the facts of the ease, that they would be unable to pay in future, and then the Treasury would come and make it up. He wanted some promise irons the Department. Because all the factors, all the sources of income, were the same—they were not diminishing, but increasing sources; and he should be very glad to hear now sonic satisfactory reason why the Department, from their residue of the Probate Duty, and from their equivalent grant, would not be able to pay this 12s. in future. Then he would be able to understand the character of the bargain, if it had been made, between the Scotch Office or the Scotch Education Department and the Treasury. He begged to move to leave out the word "three" and substitute "two," in order to elicit some explanation.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he had explained this so often that he was afraid he should be wearying the House by going over it. again. He had heard the hon. Member's speech not once or twice, but several times. The hon. Member must really know how the facts stood. The Act of 1892, which gave the fee grants to Scotland, said that after 1892 there should be paid out of the moneys provided by Parliament an annual grant towards the relief of the payment of school fees in the State-aided schools of Scotland a sum of £265,000, or such other amount as Parliament might determine, having regard to the amount of the fee grant under the Elementary Education Act 1891—that was to say, the
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  English Act. Now, the hon. Member knew perfectly well—it had been explained again and again the view of the Treasury upon that for the future, that the same capitation grant should be paid to Scotland as to England, that was to say, a grant of 10s. per head. As a matter of fact, up to this time, 12s. per head had been available, because the original provision for free education, in Scotland was not made out of the fee grant, but out of the equivalent grant that Scotland got at the same time that England got her local taxation subvention. Calculations were made as to how far the money would go, and as a result the education authorities came to the conclusion that they would be able to pay the 12s. up to 1892, and they could, as a matter of fact, have paid more than that sum. Since that year—and the number of children had largely increased in the interval—they had been enabled to make up the 12s. out of their accumulated savings. But these savings had disappeared, and recognising that fact the education authorities had approached the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who promised that, as they had been conducting their system in Scotland on the scale of 12s., he would provide 2s. out of the Imperial Treasury, which, added to the direct Parliamentary grant of 10s., would make up the 12s. It seemed, therefore, only just that when they were relieving the Voluntary Schools, they should take, this contribution from the Exchequer of 2s. into account and make the grant 3s. instead of 5s.
  DR. CLARKwas not satisfied with the explanation of the right hon. Member, but said that he did not propose to press his Amendment to a Division. It was not competent for him to move to increase the sum, and of course he did not want to reduce it.
  MR. CALDWELLsuggested that before the Report stage a statement of accounts should be prepared, so that the whole transaction might be clearly understood.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRproposed, after the word "Parliament," to insert:—
  "Provided always that, as a condition of a school's receiving a share of the aid grant, the accounts of the receipts and expenditure of

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  the school shall be annually audited in accordance with the regulations of the Scottish Education Department as now applied under statute to School Board schools."
  He said that a School Board in Scotland was bound to appoint two of its members to be visitors of the schools which it managed. These visitors could enter the schools at any time and call for the registers, so that they might compare them with the actual number of pupils present. The obvious purpose of this was to check the registers upon which was calculated the average attendance which regulated the amount of the grant. The system of auditing was very minute and rigid, and the public purse was protected as it ought to be. In the case of State-aided Voluntary Schools there was an examination of vouchers and receipts. As a matter of fact the managers certified results. There was an inspection of accounts by the educational inspectors, but they were appointed for educational purposes, and not for their competency to examine accounts, and they had frequently reported that their duties lay with the education of the children and the efficiency of education, rather than the inspection of accounts. ["Hear, hear!"] Surely it went without saying that as the protection he asked for was given in the case of Board Schools, it was necessary that it should be given in the case of Voluntary Schools also, and it was with that object that he moved the Amendment. It was really in the interest of those schools that the Amendment should be carried. It did not propose to put them under any more stringent regulations than those under which the School Board system was carried on. It had been shown in these Debates that the treatment of Voluntary Schools in Scotland had been most generous, and they had thriven to a remarkable degree. He would therefore urge those who sympathised with them to help him to bring pressure to bear on the Government to accept this reasonable Amendment.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he was sorry that his hon. and gallant Friend should seek to press this Amendment, because the Government could not agree to it. A great deal of what the hon. and gallant Gentleman had said had been dealt with already in these Debates. If the hon. and gallant Gentleman thought
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  that the inspection of the accounts of Voluntary Schools was not sufficiently rigid, he was sure that the Department would listen to any recommendation that might be made to them, and if they refused to entertain them, there would be various ways left in which to bring Parliamentary pressure to bear upon them. But this Amendment proposed to subject Voluntary Schools to the regulation statutory audit. ["Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members might say "Hear, hear," but at the same time they would observe that that was a very different thing from merely saying that what was done at present. was not sufficient. He could not agree to an Amendment which so altered the relations which at present existed between the managers of Voluntary Schools and the Department.
  MR. A. D. PROVANDwas surprised that the Lord Advocate should refuse to assent to so reasonable an Amendment. They were now giving more money to Voluntary Schools because they did not get any aid from the rates, and it was now simply asked that as they were to get this additional public money, they should submit their accounts to a proper inspection, and that they should furnish an account of what they did with their money, in the sonic way as the School Boards did. Therefore he hoped that if the right hon. Gentleman would not admit the Amendment, his hon. and gallant Friend would go to a Division. ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. H. ASQUITHcould not help feeling very great regret that the Government should make no concession whatever on this point. The English Bill had made provision for this very case. In one of the sub-sections of the first clause it was provided, that the Education Department might require the accounts of Voluntary Schools to be annually audited in accordance with the regulations of the Department, and the Vice President of the Council, he thought on the floor of the House, said that so long as he had the administration of the English Act in his hands he would insist on the Department exercising their power in all cases. If it was to be the ease in England, why not in Scotland? ["Hear, hear!"] There were schools receiving four-fifths of their annual resources from public funds, and it was perfectly plain that if Parliament and the country were

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  to make it absolutely certain that the money was expended for the purpose for which it was intended, some inspection by the proper authority was necessary.
  THE LORD ADVOCATErepeated that the Amendment would render a statutory audit necessary. It seemed to him that the power to which the right hon. Gentleman opposite referred was already in the Bill. The English Bill provided, as the right hon. Gentleman had said, that the Education Department might require the accounts and receipts should be annually audited in accordance with the regulations of the Department, but that was not a statutory audit. What he was resisting in the Amendment was the necessity for making the audit a statutory audit.
  MR. ASQUITHasked whether the right hon. Gentleman, like the Vice President in the case of the English Act, would give the Committee an assurance that he would insist on an audit?
  MR. J. H. YOXALLasked whether the right hon. Gentleman would make the same provision in regard to the audit as was made in the English Act?
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid, as only one member of the Council of Education, he could not give an absolute promise, but he was quite certain that the Scotch Education Department would make such regulation as in their view would assure a proper control and that the money was properly spent.
  MR. HEDDERWICKthought the Lord Advocate was maintaining an unnecessary position, because Clause 2 provided that the money that was to be given to these Voluntary Schools should be distributed in such manner and according to such conditions as might be set forth. But there was absolutely nothing in the Bill as to the auditing of accounts, and he hoped the Lord Advocate would reconsider the question.
  MR. PROVANDsaid the right hon. Gentleman had admitted that he could not enforce the regulations made by the Education Department, but they had not asked him to do so. What they asked was that the Bill should require an annual audit.
  MR. LLOYD - GEORGEsaid there was absolutely no provision in the Bill with regard
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  to an audit. The question was whether the House was to legislate on the question of an audit or depute it to a body whom the Government were not prepared themselves to be responsible for. He would like to know why there should be any distinction between a School Board and a Voluntary School in this matter, unless it was that they trusted the managers of Voluntary Schools and would not trust the representatives elected by the people on the School Boards. He thought there was just as much reason for an audit in the case of Voluntary managers as in the case of the representatives of the people on a School Board. If there was any falsification or mal-administration it would be discovered by means of an annual audit. It was true that an inspector came down to a Voluntary School, but he did riot enter into these accounts, he seldom or never looked at the vouchers or accounts, and he was not a true accountant. There was no reason why the words which were required should not be inserted.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he thought there was a good deal of misunderstanding about the matter. He had said that there certainly would be an audit, but that he could not bind himself to there being exactly the same regulation as was provided in the English Act. He thought that under the Bill as it stood they had exactly as much power, but he was perfectly willing to insert the words of the English Act. ["Hear, hear!"]
  SIR H. CAMPBELL - BANNERMANappealed to his hon. Friend to withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEmoved to insert at the end of the first paragraph of the Clause:—
  "The Code may require as a condition of a school receiving a share of the aid grant that the accounts and receipts of the expenditure of the school may be annually audited in accordance with I Le regulations of the Department."
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. BUCHANANmoved after the word "Parliament," to insert:—
  "provided always that every grant payable under this section shall he paid direct to the managers of the school entitled to the same."

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  It was the unanimous desire of the Scotch Members that the 3s. grant should not go to diminish voluntary subscriptions, but to improve educational efficiency.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE, in declining to accept the Amendment, said he failed to understand on what grounds he could be expected to accept it.
  MR. J. W. CROMBIEsaid they had agreed before that this Parliamentary grant was really going in lieu of rates to all intents and purposes. But they were now told by the Lord Advocate that that was not so. Now, however, the Lord Advocate said that it was to all intents and purposes to go in lieu of rates. If they were going to give this grant to Voluntary Schools they ought to see that the money went to increase the efficiency of the schools. As long as this Clause remained, the 3s. would simply go to relieve subscriptions.
  Amendment negatived.
  On the Question "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill,"
  MR. BUCHANANsaid this Clause, giving aid to Voluntary Schools, was a decidedly retrograde step in the educational legislation of Scotland. They had hitherto always maintained that their educational system was a national system suitable to the wants of Scotland and generally satisfactory to the people. It rested on a. national basis. In Scotland they had School Boards in every parish, and where religious communities desired to have special schools of their own in which their children might receive special religious instruction, they had full facilities to establish those schools and share on absolutely equal terms in all the Parliamentary grants that came from the Exchequer. The Act of 1872 established absolute statutory equality between Board and Voluntary Schools in sharing in the Parliamentary grant. That statutory equality had been hitherto observed in all the Parliamentary grants that had been given for public education in Scotland, and this was the first occasion on which a Parliamentary grant had been given in which that statutory equality was not observed. The only reason that had been given for this departure was that certain educational proposals had
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  been made for England, and that similar proposals ought to be made for Scotland. This was treating Scotland as the knuckle end of England with a vengeance. They had often not got the legislation they wanted, but they had not suffered in the past as they were apparently to suffer now, in getting education imposed upon them which they did not want and were strongly opposed to. He must enter his earnest protest against the proposal contained in the clause by which a sum of public money was given to denominational bodies, wholly irresponsible, under no conditions or restrictions whatever, and with no provision, direct or indirect, that in any degree whatsoever it should improve the education of the country. It would neither improve education, increase the number of children to be educated, nor improve the status of a single teacher. It was a step backward in their legislation, and a Measure which he was perfectly certain the vast majority of Scottish opinion was strongly opposed to.
  Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  Clause 3,—

  EXTENT AND SHORT TITLE.
  This Act shall extend to Scotland only, and may be cited as the Education (Scotland) Act 1897.
  Clause ordered to stand part of the Bill.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORmoved the following new clause,—

  EXEMPTION FROM RATES OF VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS.
  No person shall be assessed or rated to or for any local rate in respect of any land or buildings, used exclusively or mainly for the purposes of the schoolrooms, offices, or playground of a Voluntary School except· to the extent of any profit derived by the managers of the school from the letting thereof.
  He observed that the principle of the clause had been accepted in the Division which was taken a few hours ago. The language of the clause had been adopted textually from the English Bill. It was asked why should Voluntary Schools be exempted from rating when Board Schools were not? The reason was clear.

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  It mattered nothing to the Board Schools whether they paid rates or not, or what amount the rates might be. If they were 20s. in the pound the School Board authorities paid the 20s. from the money of the rates with the one hand, while they took the amount from the rates with the other. Voluntary Schools were not in the same position. They received nothing from the rates, and yet they were expected to contribute to them. He begged to move the Amendment.
  Clause read the First time.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEaccepted the Amendment. It had, he said, been rashly assumed by hon. Members Opposite that there was no demand for this exemption. On the contrary there had been a demand for it. As to what had been said about. Board Schools being exempted from rates, he would point out that it would be a mere paying from one pocket into another. If Board Schools were exempted from rates, they would get no benefit from it as a help to the 17s. 6d. limit, because at the present moment the sum which a Board School paid on the rating of the school was calculated as a portion of the local expenses which went to swell the local expenditure upon the operation of the 17s. 6d. limit.
  MR. CALDWELLpointed out that the language of the clause had been taken from the English Bill, and he desired to ask whether it should not be in Scotch phraseology, so as to make it properly applicable to Scotland?
  THE LORD ADVOCATEwould consider the point between this and the Report stage.
  MR. PROVANDopposed the clause, remarking that it was unfair and inequitable to give an exemption to Voluntary Schools which was not given to Board schools, although the latter were as much entitled to it as the former. As to the argument that Board Schools received public money, he would point out that four-fifths of the money which Voluntary Schools now got was public money; therefore they had no ground for preferential treatment in this regard.
  MR. CARVELL WILLIAMSobserved that it was quite a mistaken view to suppose it was immaterial whether a Board School paid rates or not. It was said that it was
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  simply payment out of one pocket into another. The objection, however, was that if Board Schools had to pay rates, that swelled the amount of their expenditure, and made them seem to be more costly than the Voluntary Schools, and that was a fact which the opponents of the Board Schools took care to make use of.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the clause be read a Second time."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 121; Noes, 41.—(Division List, No. 322.)
  Question proposed, "That the Clause be added to the Bill."
  CAPTAIN SINCLAIRproposed to amend the clause by leaving out the words, "or mainly." The exemption was to apply to land or buildings exclusively or mainly used for school purposes, but it would be within the knowledge of Scottish Members that schools in Scotland were very frequently parts of other buildings, the school-room forming part of a block of buildings, other parts of the block being used as a church, meetinghouse, or dwelling, the whole block being included in one assessment for local rating purposes. From an educational point of view it was thought desirable to exempt the school from rating, but the exemption should be only applied to the rooms used for school purposes.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid the clause followed the English Act, and the point was thoroughly discussed when the latter was before the House.
  MR. BUCHANANthought the Amendment was worthy of some answer. It was a substantial Amendment, and not to be dealt with by a mere reference to the English Act. Buildings would be exempted under the clause that were not used for schools, and this was not the intention of the Committee in relieving Voluntary Schools from rating.
  THE LORD ADVOCATEsaid he thought the hon. Member had listened to the arguments on the point, in the discussion of the English Bill. The effect of adopting the Amendment would be that the word "exclusively" remaining, the casual use of a school-room for other than school purposes would be held to exclude

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  the school from the benefit of the exemption.
  Amendment negatived; clause added; preamble agreed to.
  Title amended by adding the words, "and for exemption from rates of these schools."—(Lord Advocate.)
  Bill reported; as amended, to be considered. upon Monday next, and to be printed.—[Bill 324.]

  CONGESTED DISTRICTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Consideration, as amended, deferred till To-morrow.
  PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Consideration, as amended (by the Standing Committee), deferred till Tomorrow.
  DURIAL GROUNDS LOANS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [11th May] further adjourned till Tomorrow.
  STIPENDIARY MAGISTRATES' JURISDICTION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  SUPPLY.
  Committee deferred till Friday.
  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Committee deferred till Friday.
  FOREIGN PRISON-MADE GOODS BILL.
  Third Reading deferred till Monday next.
  COTTON CLOTH FACTORIES BILL.
  As amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed.

  SCHOOL BOARDS' EXPENSES BILL.
  Considered in Committee.
  Clause 1,—.

  PAYMENT OF SCHOOL BOARD CONFERENCE EXPENSES.
  (1.) The school board of any district may, subject to regulations made by the Education Department under this Act, pay out of the school fund—

  (a) the reasonable expenses of any members of the board, or of the clerk to the board, in attending any conference of school boards held for the purpose of discussing any matter connected with the duties devolving upon them;

  (b) any reasonable annual or othr subscription towards the expenses of the conference.

  (2.) A school board shall not pay under this Act the expenses of more than three persons attending a school board conference.

  (3.) The Education Department may make such regulations as they think fit for regulating payments by school boards under this Act.

  (4.) Expressions used in this Act have the same respective meanings as they have in the Elementary, Education Acts 1870 to 1893.

  DR. TANNERsaid he understood that the Government were quite satisfied not to take any other business if they got the Scotch Education Bill.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.)said that by an arrangement which he thought was satisfactory to the House it was agreed to take these two Bills and these two alone after the Scotch Education Bill.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; read the Third time, and passed.

  ISLE OF MAN (CHURCH BUILDING ACTS) BILL [H.L.]
  Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [5th July] further adjourned till Tomorrow.
  Whereupon, in pursuance of the Order of the House of the 15th day of this instant July, Mr. Speaker adjourned the House without Question put.
  House Adjourned at a Quarter before Seven o Clock.