Sitting of 25 February 1897

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAY BILL.
  On the Motion that this Bill be read a Second time,
  *SIR CHARLES DILKEsaid he did not propose to divide the House upon the Motion, but to state briefly the reasons why the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants opposed the Bill, with a view to going to a Division if necessary on Tuesday next, when it had been arranged that an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill should be moved. The clauses of the Bill to which the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants objected were 37 and 38, Clause 37 being the Savings Bank clause and Clause 38 being similar to a clause inserted in the North British Railway Bill, the Second Reading of which the House had already passed. With regard to the latter clause, he understood that the Great Northern Railway Company were willing to insert into their clause a somewhat similar amendment to that which the North British Company consented to insert into their clause. As to the Savings Bank clause, the House had already allowed some other railway companies to establish savings banks of this kind, but there were many persons
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  who entertained strong objections to the course which the House had taken, perhaps without sufficient consideration. In the Tyne Act of 1890 the then Chairman of Committees introduced very carefully-guarded clauses with regard to the accounts of those societies and their management. Those clauses had since been introduced into an Act promoted by the London County Council, and if it were deemed necessary to guard the rights of the men in the case of public bodies like the Tyne Commissioners and the London County Council, surely it was even more necessary to do so in the case of private companies. He was of opinion that the carefully guarded clauses introduced by the right hon. Gentleman should become for the future statutory clauses to be introduced in all measures of this kind. The general objection of the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants to the Savings Bank clause was one which was worthy of brief consideration by the House. The men stated that they had no desire to invest their savings with the company, because they objected to their employers being in a position to obtain knowledge of what they deemed to be their own private business. The men also pointed out the bearing which that knowledge might have upon the rate of wages and upon strikes in certain circumstances. Personally he did not like those savings banks clauses in railway Bills. They were not the object or purpose of a railway Bill. ["Hear, hear!"] Railway companies came to Parliament for statutory powers to take land, and not to be made provident societies or savings banks in relation to the people in their employ. He should not divide the House against the Second Reading of the Bill, because he admitted that the principle, having been sanctioned in previous Acts of Parliament, it might not be quite fair to a particular company to divide against a general Bill of theirs upon grounds which applied only to clauses. He did not at all pledge himself not to divide the House on the Instruction, but it seemed to him that the Second Reading was the proper occasion to state briefly the objections he had taken to the extension of this principle, and, at all events, to put the matter in the possession of the House.
  MR. JOHN ELLISsaid he did not rise to oppose the

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  Second Reading of the Bill, but to make one or two observations from a somewhat different standpoint from that of the right hon. Baronet. Those who had followed the history of legislation with regard to railways would know that it had been of a very gradual but surely widening character; and whereas the object of these commercial companies in coming to Parliament in the first instance was a very simple one—that of obtaining powers to take land and charge tolls, for the transit of goods and passengers—now it had widened out into all sorts of different matters. He confessed he watched with considerable jealousy this widening of the area of legislation with regard to matters which he believed had better be left to be settled between the parties themselves. It seemed to him extremely doubtful how far the House was wise, in a particular Bill of this kind, in allowing these powers, which were not directly related to the particular object of the existence of the railway. As to the Instruction on the Paper he thought the railway companies would be wise in allowing all parties who might be legitimately affected by the Bill before the House to have a full opportunity of going before the Committee and stating their case.
  *MR. F. W. FISONthought that on this occasion the right hon. Baronet had got a rather poor ease against this railway company. Two clauses only in this Bill, which was a long one of some 74 clauses, were objected to. The first of those two clauses, 37, gave the Great Northern Railway Company power to establish a savings bank. He would point out to the House that this was a purely voluntary savings bank. No single person in the employ of the Great Northern Railway Company was compelled to contribute to the bank; no condition of employment was laid down with any servant of the company that he should belong to the savings bank; no fines could be deducted from any money any servant might have in the bank, and, in fact, no deduction whatever could be made from any depositor's account in the bank. The depositors' accounts, he might mention to hon. Members, became a first charge on the undertaking after the mortgage and other debts and interest on debenture stock, and he ventured to say that,
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  in the present condition of things and for some years to come, that was about as safe an investment as anyone could wish to have. But there was no novelty about this proposal of the company. Already some 14 railway companies possessed similar savings banks, and he rather regarded it as a reflection on the Great Northern Company that they had not sooner brought this proposal forward. From the Official Report of Friendly Societies for 1895 he found that in these 14 railway companies' banks there were, roughly speaking, 30,000 depositors, £2,200,000 deposited, and the average deposit per depositor was £75. The Registrar of Friendly Societies reported
  "that those banks show an increase in the amount due to depositors, in the number of depositors, and in the average of each deposit account."
  The right hon. Baronet said that many of the railway men objected to put their money into these banks. Well, they had a curious way of objecting, because he found that in 1895 there was an increase of over 25,000 in the number of depositors—["hear, hear!"]—and they put in an amount of £171,000, and the increased interest they got on the deposits was nearly £9,000. ["Hear, hear!"] He would further remind the House that the Registrar of Friendly Societies had to give an opinion upon the sub-clauses of this section, and he had it on that official's authority that the only amendments he required were unimportant verbal ones which could be inserted in Committee in the usual course, He thought the persons who might object to these savings banks were the shareholders, because the shareholders undoubtedly had an increased charge put upon them by the increased rate of interest paid to the depositors; but this Bill had been submitted to their shareholders, and had been most favourably received. He thought he knew a little more than the right hon. Baronet of what the Great Northern men thought about this matter. At King's Cross, no single objection, not a single complaint, had been received from the men in the service as to the establishment of this bank, and when last December he publicly stated at Doncaster, where there were several thousands of railway men, a large portion of whom were in the employ of the Great Northern Company, that it was contemplated by the directors to found

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  this bank, the way the statement was received showed how thoroughly the men appreciated the action of the Board. He now turned to the Superannuation Clause, 38. The right hon. Baronet had pointed out that he would not object to this clause, because the Great Northern Railway Company were prepared to make arrangements which would not be compulsory on the men. The Great Northern Railway never intended that it should be compulsory, and he thought a moment's reflection would show that it could not be compulsory. The clause was to enable the railway servants serving under a Joint Committee of two railway companies to obtain, if they wished, the benefits of the Superannuation Fund. It was perfectly obvious that it would be impossible for one of these companies to force all the joint servants into its own Superannuation Fund. This fund was divided into two portions. There was the portion consisting of salaried officers, who were in receipt of £80 and upwards a year. In those cases the fund was compulsory. They contributed 2½ per cent. of their salaries, and the company added 2½ per cent., and they got the advantage of the 5 per cent. at accumulated compound interest. The second portion which might be said to consist of the workmen of the company, was not compulsory. No workman who received less than £80 a year was compelled to belong to the Superannuation Fund. It was purely a matter of option. They contributed one per cent. and the company added one per cent. In 1893 there were in this second class 2,627 workmen; in 1894 the number rose to 2,885; and in 1895 to 3,556, or an increase in the optional class of 35 per cent. in two years. It was perfectly true that there was a sentimental side to this Bill. It was perfectly true that they hoped, by the establishment of this bank, to bind still closer those friendly relations of their men to themselves, which had always been so prominent in this company. He was proud to say so, because he thought anything that that House could do to bring together employer and employed would best tend to the future glory of their great commercial reputation and enterprise.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORthought this Bill was an exemplification of a very great and a growing abuse of statutory powers. A large Corporation
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  such as the Great Northern Railway Company obtained exceptional privileges and advantages for the purchase of land and for a monopoly of the carrying trade upon certain conditions, and these conditions this railway company, like many other railway companies, had systematically and lightly disregarded. Among these conditions one of the most important was that, having obtained certain powers to carry out works, they should complete those works within a limited period; that having obtained rights over certain property they should exercise those rights and satisfy the owners of the property. By the non-fulfilment of these conditions the service of the public was neglected, and the interests of owners and occupiers seriously injured. This he had described as a gross and growing abuse of powers granted by Parliament, and he took the opportunity offered to point out to the House the injustice such Bills as this often inflicted. As far back as 1892, in a Committee upstairs, Sir H. Oakley, the general manager of this company, informed the Members that the suburban traffic to the City had been the trouble of their lives, and that they had been in the throes of suggestion for the last year or more. He said the company were carrying the public very badly indeed, that the trains were overcrowded every night and morning, and they could not help it; the difficulty of dealing with this suburban traffic was a burden on the minds of the managers. This was perfectly true in 1892, and it was a great deal more true now, and anybody who travelled on the line by the morning and evening trains could testify that the condition of things was perfectly disgraceful. In compartments constructed to carry ten persons there were to be found from 12 to 20 persons crowded together, and this, not only in the third, but in the first class carriages. It was not a question of getting a seat on this part of the Great Northern line, but every morning and evening it was simply a struggle for standing room in any form and in any place. In the year 1883, the suburban traffic on the line was reported to be 14 millions of passengers annually. In 1886 the total had gone up to 17 millions, and in 1891 it was 22½ millions, and it had been increasing ever since. Lord Colville, who was Chairman of the company

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  in 1894, said that further provision would have to be made for the conveyance of the enormous suburban traffic, increasing at the rate of a million passengers a year. On these representations the Great Northern Company in 1894 obtained from Parliament very considerable powers to purchase land and to raise new capital for the construction of new lines, especially in the neighbourhood just north of London, in the district called Finsbury Park. They had widened the line in part, but still the traffic had to pass through, as it were, the neck of the bottle, and each year passed without further work being estimated for. They had given notice to occupiers that they were liable to be bought up at any moment, and yet, through 1894, 1895, and 1896 this company had done nothing. The present Chairman of the company, at a meeting held in the present year, stated that the suburban traffic was increasing at the rate of 1½ million passengers a year; and from month to month the difficulty of dealing with this traffic increased. And yet this company, having raised the capital it had power to raise, and having the money in hand for two years, had not moved a single stone to carry out the work it stipulated to complete in three years. The company had not done its duty to the public and not even to its own shareholders; it had inflicted grievous injury on owners and occupiers of property, who had all this time a sort of sword of Damocles suspended over them in the shape of a Schedule, and could not deal with their property, for, of course, no one would deal with it when there was the possibility of the company stepping in and taking possession. The shareholders, too, had good reason to complain, but with these he was not now concerned, his complaint was, that companies having obtained exceptional powers neglected to carry out their work within the stipulated time, and at the end of the time came to Parliament again, as the Great Northern Company did now, for an extension of time for work which they had had ample time for completing, but with which they had made no advance since 1894. It was no use attempting to divide the House on this matter, and he did not propose to do so, but he seized the opportunity to point out the grievous injustice many of these Bills covered, often not properly
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  brought to light in Committee rooms upstairs.
  MR. CHARLES MURDOCHsaid he did not think the objection could be fairly urged against this Bill that it was a widening of the scope of Railway Bills, and certainly the Savings Bank Clause was not new. Such banks had been established by other companies, and clauses to this effect inserted in Bills. The reason for the clause was that the directors wished the security of those investing should be as good as could be, and it was necessary, therefore, to place before preference and ordinary stock interest, payment of the money deposited in the savings bank. Why the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants should raise objection he could not understand. His hon. Friend (Mr. Fison), had very clearly put before the House the advantages that would accrue to railway servants. As to the objection raised by the last speaker that year after year railway companies came to Parliament for powers to acquire land and did not complete work, it must be borne in mind that these great works were extremely difficult to carry out. Some of the work had been done between King's Cross and Finsbury Park, and anyone who travelled over that part of the line would recognise how heavy and costly the work was. He could not admit the logic of the hon. Member who, admitting the necessity for the work, yet objected to the Bill for the purpose of carrying out the work.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid he had pointed out that the company had had the money for years, but allowed the time to lapse without attempting to complete the work.
  MR. MURDOCHsaid the hon. Member had mentioned the date 1894, and it could not be expected that works of this extensive nature could be executed in the short space of 2½ years.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORremarked they were not begun.
  MR. MURDOCHsaid a beginning had been made, but the work had to be divided into sections, and the section to which the hon. Member's remarks referred would be the next work to be undertaken.
  MR. G. C. T. BARTLEYsaid the section of the line to which reference had been made was within his

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  constituency. He urged the company to proceed with their work with all possible dispatch. Two and a-half years might not be a long period in the history of a railway company, but it was a fairly long period for ordinary mortals to suffer from the extreme inconvenience to which passengers were subjected by the overcrowding on the line and at the stations near Finsbury Park. He was a little surprised to hear the remark from the other side that it was not the business or object of a railway company to look after its servants and see that they had facilities for thrift and other means of improving their position. It seemed to him in these days that the putting in of a clause of this kind for the promotion of thrift and better habits on the part of the working classes ought to be one of the highest aims of great employers of labour. Railway companies had enormous advantages given them, as they had such large staffs of workmen; and surely the House ought to encourage them in every possible way to provide for the sickness and old age of the workmen in their employment.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEasked whether, in the event of a workman being dismissed for his connection with a strike, he would receive any benefit from the savings bank?
  *MR. FISON: Yes, certainly.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEinquired if there was any statutory obligation to that effect. A second question was, Would a man who was dismissed for his association with a strike receive any benefit at all from the provident society connected with the Great Northern Railway, to which he might have contributed liberally for years?
  *MR. FISON: Does the hon. Member mean the Superannuation Fund?
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: Yes.
  *MR. FISONsaid there was a rule in connection with the Superannuation Fund by which a member practically got back his money. As to whether there was a statutory obligation he was afraid he could not answer.
  Bill read a Second time, and committed.

  MIDLAND AND GREAT NORTHERN RAILWAYS JOINT COMMITTEE BILL.
  MR. HARRY FOSTERmoved—
  "That the Report of the Examiners, that the Standing Orders in relation to the said Bill had been complied with, be referred back to the Examiners, with instructions to report whether Standing Orders 4, 30, and 33 have been complied with so far as the common lands known as Gunton Denes and Lowestoft Denes are affected by the Bill."
  The hon. Member said the Motion was somewhat unusual, but not absolutely without precedent, and if it lacked precedent it would be because the action which had led to the necessity for the Motion was without precedent also. That House, very properly, was exceedingly jealous of any interference with open spaces or common rights, and in the Standing Orders had laid down express injunctions as to the course to be followed by the promoters of a Bill when they proposed to interfere with common rights. Standing Order No. 4 required that where, by any Bill, it was proposed to take any right to any common or commonable land, an advertisement should appear in The London Gazette stating the fact that it was proposed to interfere with those rights of the public, and also the estimated quantity of such land proposed to be so taken. That requirement was obviously for the purpose of putting people on inquiry, and giving notice to the public that rights were to be affected. Standing Order No. 30 also required that there should be deposited, in any case where commonable land or common lands were to be taken, plans and sections, and a book of reference in the Private Bill Office, showing exactly what land was to be taken. By Standing Order 33 it was required that, where such land was taken, notice should be given to the Home Office and a copy of the Bill deposited there, in order that the Home Office might call the attention of the Board of Agriculture to the matter, who were required to report to the House with regard to common rights, and might give notice generally to others interested in the preservation of common rights. The Bill in question was for the construction of a line of railway from Yarmouth to Lowestoft, and the plans deposited disclosed,

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  for the first time, the fact that the proposed line was to come across what were known as the Gunton Denes and the Lowestoft Denes, both of which places were public recreation grounds, which, from time immemorial, had been common land and commonable land, on which there had been a right to pasture cattle exercised for centuries, and which was exercised at the present day. Part of these lauds were acquire I by the Corporation of Lowestoft in 1890, and in 1891 they were expressly acquired for the purpose of being used by and dedicated to the public for ever, the Corporation being trustees of the public. None of the Standing Orders he had indicated had been complied with. The Bill did not contain one single word, from the first clause to the last, disclosing the fact that common land or commonable land was to be interfered with. No plans had been deposited with the Private Bill Office disclosing that fact, and no notice had been given to the Home Office or the Board of Agriculture. He was told that the promoters of the Bill contended that the lands were not common lands, and that was their reason for not having complied with the Standing Orders. In reply to that contention he would say that, in 1890, the Corporation of Lowestoft applied to the Local Government Board for permission to acquire these lands, and also for enlarging the Borough of Lowestoft, in order to take them in. In their application to the Local Government Board the Corporation stated that one of the most attractive features to Lowestoft had been the proximity to Gunton Cliffs and Gunton Denes, which had been always unenclosed and open to the public, and over which both the inhabitants of and visitors to Lowestoft had, from time immemorial, availed themselves of the privilege of recreation; and it was of the utmost importance that at least the Denes should be perpetually preserved as an open space for the benefit of the public;. Upon that express statement the Local Government Board held an inquiry, when evidence was given to show there was a right of pasturage, together with other common rights. The necessary sanction was therefore given for the purchase by the Corporation of that part of Gunton Denes for the use of the public. The solicitor to the Commons Preservation Society assured him
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  that the terms of the conveyance conveying the land to the Corporation established the fact that this was common or commonable land within the meaning of the Standing Order. In the year 1891 the Corporation of Lowestoft desired to acquire Lowestoft Denes, and in connection with that Mr. J. J. Colman, formerly a Member of that House, agreed to give £750 towards the purchase, provided the lands were dedicated to the use of the public for ever. The deed conveying the lands expressly set forth that they were to he for ever kept and used as a public recreation or pleasure ground. He had a communication, dated no later than the previous day, from the Clerk to the Borough and County Justices, a gentleman who was a solicitor, in which he said that Lowestoft and Gunton Denes had been places open and free to the public from time immemorial; and he enclosed a document which, in a very few hours, left for that purpose, had been signed by 14 or 15 persons, who had exercised the rights of free pasturage on these lands for many years. He had in his hand a statement, furnished by the Commons Preservation Society, which showed that, so long ago as the time of Queen Elizabeth, there existed a record to the effect that these were commons or pasture; lands. If that were so, and if the Bill did not comply with the Standing-Orders, he asked the House to send this reference down to the Examiners—who were in no way to blame—so that they could report upon the matter. He submitted that the Examiners should have an opportunity of deciding whether these were common lands or not, and that those who represented the popular rights should be able to appear before them. He was asked in somewhat official quarters why he was not satisfied to let this Bill be read a Second time, and then the objectors could have a locus standi before the Committee. His constituents were deeply interested in this matter, and it would be a gross injustice to put them to the expense of summoning witnesses and instructing counsel, when after all it might be found that the Standing Orders had not been complied with. He believed he had shown that the Bill did not comply with three Standing Orders to which the House attached the greatest importance. He was told

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  that the House might be asked to suspend the Standing Orders in this case. He should like to have the verdict of the House challenged. The House had shown an increasing desire to help local bodies to preserve open spaces for the public, and he should be surprised if, in a case like this, it stultified itself by suspending the Standing Orders.
  SIR BENJAMIN STONE(seconded) the Motion.
  SIR FREDERICK MAPPINin opposing the Motion, said the House would be adopting an unusual course in referring the Bill back to the Examiners. The hon. Member who moved the Motion had made a number of statements which it was impossible for the House to consider. The House would have confidence in the Select Committee to which the Bill would be referred. That Committee would consider all those matters which the time of the House ought not to be occupied with, and he hoped the House would reject the Motion. ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. T. LOUGHsaid railway companies cut lines across commons whenever they could. If the hon. Member for Lowestoft pressed his Motion to a Division he should certainly support him.
  *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS (Mr. J. W. LOWTHER,)said the matter was not quite so simple as the hon. Member for Lowestoft put it before the House. It was really a difficult matter. He seemed to assume that there was not the least doubt that the places he had mentioned were commons. He had sought such information as he could obtain on the point, and the information given to him by the promoters was that they were not commons. The Corporation of Lowestoft, who would have a large interest in the matter, denied in toto that there were any commonable rights over these places. The Board of Agriculture had made a Report on the Bill. They referred to other commons mentioned, but no mention of these places was made. Not satisfied with this, he communicated further with the Board of Agriculture, and had received from them a letter stating that they had no evidence whatever to show that either of these places were commons, or that commonable rights existed over them. He did
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  not say whether such rights existed or not. That was surely a question of law which neither he nor the hon. Member could decide, and he was perfectly certain the Examiners would not be able to decide it, because they could not do so. He was satisfied that the promoters of the Bill acted in good faith. They had satisfied him that they took steps to ascertain whether the places referred to were commons. At Lowestoft they were informed by those in authority that they were spaces open to the public but belonging to the Corporation, and were public property in that sense, but there were no commonable rights over them. The hon. Member for Lowestoft had asked the House to do what had never been done before, viz., to refer the matter back to the Examiners. The Examiners were not proper persons to decide a delicate and difficult point of law such as would be involved. Supposing the Examiners decided that these lands were commons, and then reported to the House that the Standing Orders had not been complied with? The matter would have to go before the Standing Orders Committee, who would have to consider whether in this case the Standing Orders might or might not properly be dispensed with. That would be a rather roundabout way of arriving at the decision the hon. Member wished the House to arrive at. On the other hand, he ran the risk of the Examiners deciding that the lands were not a common, and that there was, therefore, no obligation on the promoters of the Bill to comply with the Standing Orders. He himself hoped that in these circumstances the House would not take the unusual step of sending the Bill back to the Examiners. The clients of the hon. Member had presented a Petition against this Bill, in which they raised this very point. That Petition would be heard before the Committee if the Bill should go before it, and he had the authority of the promoters to say that if the Commons Preservation Society would present a Petition the promoters would not object to their locus standi. and they would doubtless argue the point out whether these lands were commons or not. The Bill was an omnibus Bill. It did not deal with this subject only, but with the construction of a railway at King's Lynn, the creating of a dock at Yarmouth, and of other works, and if the Examiners

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  found that the Standing Order had not been complied with, the whole Bill would be killed—which would be hard on the promoters—just because of a mistake, into which they might easily hare fallen, and because they had not complied with the Standing Orders in respect of two small pieces of land.
  MR. J. W. MELLORsaid he hoped the House would take the advice just given by the Chairman of Ways and Means. It was advice that any Chairman of Ways and Means would give—that this Bill should go to a Select Committee in the ordinary way. The contention of the hon. Member for Lowestoft involved a delicate and difficult question of law—if there was anything in it at all. How could the House or the Examiners of Private Bills decide such a question? The Examiners had not to decide questions of law. All they had to do was to see whether the Standing Orders had been complied with on the information before them. The natural and only tribunal to try the question involved in this Motion was the ordinary Select Committee, to whom all such Bills as this were referred. He could see no reason why this Motion should be carried.
  MR. HARRY FOSTERsaid he would read to the right hon. Gentleman Standing Order 141. [The hon. Member then read the Order.]
  MR. MELLORthought the hon. Gentleman did not quite understand the meaning of the Standing Order. The Committee would not inquire as to whether the Standing Order had been complied with, but into the question of law as to whether these were common lands or not. He would point out also that the hon. Gentleman would gain nothing even if he carried this Motion; as, if the Bill were sent back to the Examiners, and they reported that there had been non-compliance with the Standing Orders, the promoters of the Bill would go before the Committee on Standing Orders, and, in the case of such an important Bill as this, the Standing Orders Committee would probably suspend the Standing Orders as to which non-compliance was reported. He believed his right hon. Friend was perfectly right in saying that this was the first time that a Motion such as this had been put before the House.
  MR. HARRY FOSTERsaid that, after the statement which had been made and the advice tendered to him, he would ask the leave of the House to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

QUESTIONS.

  RICHMOND PARK.
  MR. E. BOULNOIS: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works whether he is aware that a very numerously and influentially signed Petition has been presented to the London County Council for the opening of the Clarence Lanes as an additional carriage way entrance to Richmond Park, and whether he will again urge upon the London County Council and the Wandsworth Board of Works the necessity for opening these additional approaches to Richmond Park so much needed by the inhabitants of London; and whether he will render the assistance promised in the Correspondence ordered by the House to be printed 31st August 1895?
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. AKERS-DOUGLAS,): I was not aware of the presentation of a Petition to the London County Council on this subject. Though I am most anxious to see this roadway made, and am quite ready to give the assistance promised in 1895, I cannot undertake, having regard to the result of previous communications, to press the matter again on the County Council and the Wandsworth Board of Works.

  TRUSTEES SAVINGS BANKS (SCOTLAND).
  SIR JOHN LENG: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he is cognisant of the practice of the principal Trustees Savings Banks in Scotland in publishing lists of persons having dormant accounts and long unclaimed balances, and of the large measure of success attending such publication in securing the payment of such balances to the rightful claimants; and whether he will call for a Report on the

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  methods adopted by the Scottish Savings Banks in this connection with a view to its being brought under the consideration of Parliament?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS BEACH,): I understand that the Trustees of the Edinburgh Savings Bank exhibit in their bank offices a list of the names of persons whose accounts have not been dealt with for ten years or more; and that the Trustees of the Dundee Savings Bank—of which the hon. Member is a manager—prepared a similar list in 1895, which has since been advertised in The People's Journal. There may be one or two other instances, but, so far as I am aware, very few Trustees Savings Banks have done so. Trustees of savings banks continue liable for money deposited with them without limit of time, and I am not satisfied that it would be desirable to impose on the trustees the duty of preparing and publishing such lists, which could only be done at considerable trouble and expense.

  TELEGRAPH FACILLTIES (DRINAGH, CO. CORK).
  MR. JAMES GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether his attention has been directed to the great want of a telegraph station at Drinagh, county Cork; and whether he proposes to supply it?
  *THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. HANBURY,): The Postmaster General has not received any application for the establishment of a telegraph office at Drinagh. He will, however, be happy to make inquiry on the subject, and will communicate with the hon. Member.

  PRISON VISITING COMMITTEES.
  MR. E. H. PICKERSGILL: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Prison Commissioners for Scotland will give in their annual reports in future a return of the visits paid to each prison by the Visiting Committee, in a form similar to that which has for many years been given as regards Irish prisons, and which the Home Secretary has recently promised to give in future as regards English prisons?
  *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. GEAHAM MURRAY,): The Prison Commissioners will be glad to furnish in their future annual reports the information desired by the hon. Member.

  NEUTRALS IN TIME OF WAR.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what steps Her Majesty's Government have taken in fulfilment of their obligation under the Treaty of Washington of May 1871, relative to the Alabama claims, to bring to the knowledge of other Maritime Powers, and to invite those Powers to accede to, the three Rules of the Treaty which provide that a neutral Government is bound to use due diligence to prevent the fitting out within its jurisdiction of any vessel which it has reasonable ground to believe is intended to cruise against a Power with which it is at peace, and also to prevent the departure from its jurisdiction of any vessel intended to cruise, such vessel having been specially adapted in whole or in part within such jurisdiction to warlike use; secondly, not to permit or suffer either belligerent to make use of its ports or waters as the base of naval operations against the other, or for the purpose of the renewal or augmentation of military supplies or men; and, thirdly, to exercise due diligence in its own ports and waters to prevent any violation of the foregoing obligations and duties; whether, during the 25 years that have elapsed since the signature of the Treaty, any Maritime Power has acceded to these Rules; whether they are now binding on any countries except Great Britain and the United States, and as between those two countries only; and whether he will lay upon the Table any correspondence that may have passed between Her Majesty's Government and the Governments of the other Maritime Powers with reference to this matter?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. G. CURZON,): In June 1871, Her Majesty's Government submitted to the Government of the United States a draft Note in which it was proposed to invite the Maritime Powers to accede to these rules.

  1125
  correspondence took place which was laid before Parliament in 1874, showing the divergence between the views entertained by the two Governments as to the terms of reference to the two Powers and as to the precise meaning of the rules. The correspondence was renewed in 1876, but led to no result, and no invitation has therefore been issued to the Maritime Powers to accede to the rules in question. The 1876 correspondence was published in the United States, and I can show the bon. Member a copy if he desires to see it.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Does the 1876 correspondence embrace any with any other Maritime Power besides the United States?
  MR. CURZON: NO, Sir, this correspondence was between ourselves and the United States Government.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Is it the fact that these rules are not binding on any other country except Great Britain and the United States, and as between those two countries only?
  MR. CURZON: Yes, Sir, that is so.

  STATUTES (QUEEN'S PRINTERS).
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE,: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if he is aware that the Queen's Printers are unable to supply printed copies of certain Acts of Parliament of last century's date; and that, consequently, persons requiring copies of such Acts are compelled either to procure manuscript copies, or to purchase them from a firm of law booksellers, in either case at considerable expense; and whether the Queen's Printers are required by any contract to supply, on demand copies of all Acts of Parliament; and, ii not, if he will consider the propriety of securing, by a clause in any future contract, that copies of all Statutes shall be obtainable at a fixed and reasonable price.
  *MR. HANBURY: Since 1887 the Controller of the Stationery Office hat been the Queen's Printer for Acts of Parliament. Messrs. Eyre and Spottiswoode, who were the printers up to 1887, retained the entire stock of old Acts and are bound by contract to supply them on the old terms until that stock if exhausted. If any Public and General Act more than ten years old has beer sold out, the Controller of the Stationery
  1126
  Office reprints it as soon as a demand for it is received, and sells at the cheap rate at which other Acts printed by the Government are now sold.

  TRUNK TELEPHONE LINE.
  MR. J. W. CROMBIE: On behalf of the hon. Member for East Aberdeen (Mr. T. R. BUCHANAN), I beg to ask the rsght hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General whether it is the intention of the Post Office that, although the trunk telephone line from Aberdeen to Elgin is to be laid through the coast towns on the Aberdeenshire and Banffshire coasts, there shall be no facilities for telephone communication between these towns?
  *MR. HANBURY: That is not the intention. The proposed line will afford trunk telephone facilities at Peterhead, Banff, Elgin, and Inverness. Fraserburgh being in the Peterhead area, it will rest with the National Telephone Company to connect that town with the trunk centre at Peterhead. Similarly it will rest with the Company to connect the Macduff and Lossiemouth Telephone Exchanges with the Banff and Elgin trunk centres respectively. The Postmaster General is informed that it is the intention of the Company to make these connections.

  BANKRUPTCY COURT (IRELAND).
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN,: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Judges of the Court of Bankruptcy in Ireland in 1896 submitted to the Lord Chancellor for his approval an Order enabling the official assignees of the Court of Bankruptcy to be appointed as official assignees and receivers and to other appointments; and, if so, what are these other appointments. Has any correspondence passed between the official assignees of the Court of Bankruptcy and the Judges of that Court, and between them and the Lord Chancellor, and between the Lord Chancellor and the Judges of the Court of Bankruptcy, or any other and what other Judges, or between the officials of the Court of Bankruptcy upon the subject; have any communications passed between the Lord Chancellor and the

  1127
  Chambers of Commerce; and, if so, what was the nature of such communications; and what were the words of the proposed Order as first submitted by the Judges of the Court of Bankruptcy to the Lord Chancellor?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): The Judges of the Court of Bankruptcy were some time ago in communication with the Lord Chancellor on the subject of the proposed Order, but it would not be in accordance with practice to publish such communications. Communications on the subject of the proposed Order have also been addressed to the Lord Chancellor by Chambers of Commerce and other public bodies, but nothing further has been done by the Lord Chancellor and the Judges in respect of the making of the Order. The proposed Order, and the public correspondence in reference to it, have all been published in the Press, and are known to every one who is interested in the matter.

  INDUSTRIAL SCHOOL CONTRACTS (IRELAND).
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether governors (other than religious orders) of industrial schools in Ireland are required by law to advertise for tenders before entering into contracts for the supply of all goods required for those institutions; how many industrial schools are under lay managers in Ireland; where are they situate; and do the managers of those schools advertise for tenders; and is the Press allowed to be present when the contracts are under discussion; if not, will he see that in the interest of the ratepayers all contracts are advertised, and that the Press shall be free to report the proceedings of all meetings, and especially when contracts are under discussion?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No distinction is drawn in the general regulations relating to industrial schools in Ireland between schools under lay and clerical management, respectively. There are nine Protestant and two Roman Catholic schools under lay management, and the remaining sixty schools are, I believe, under the management of Roman Catholic religious orders. The hon.
  1128
  Member will find further particulars as to the location of these schools in the annual report of the Inspector presented to Parliament. It has not been the practice, so far as I am aware, to admit the Press to be present at the proceedings of the managers of such schools, and I am not aware of any legal provision requiring either that the deliberations of the managers should be open to the Press, or that tenders for supplies shall be invited by public advertisement.

  HORSE-BREEDING (IRELAND).
  COLONEL McCALMONT: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Congested Districts Board have recently acquired a number of thoroughbred and hackney mares, which are located at the Chantilly Stud Farm, near Dublin; with what object are they there; and, what benefit do the inhabitants of the congested districts derive from them?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The Congested Districts Board have not recently acquired any hackney mares, but they have purchased two thoroughbred mares, which are placed at the Chantilly Stud Farm for breeding purposes. The intention is to use their offspring in order to improve the breed of horses in congested districts.

  LIBERIA (BRITISH TRADE).
  SIR GEORGE BADEN-POWELL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether any definite agreement has been come to with the Government of the Republic of Liberia as to any increase in the number of ports of entry and in facilities for British trade; and what arrangement has been come to in regard to the recent cases of firing on British vessels by the Liberian gunboat?
  MR. CURZON: The Governor of Sierra Leone, who is also Her Majesty's Consul for Liberia, visited Monrovia recently, and discussed the question of increased trading facilities with the Republic. Steps have since been taken with regard to the issue of licences to trade with ports of non-entry. He also received assurances that British vessels should not be fired upon, and orders have been issued by the Liberian Government to that effect.

  SOLENT (ARTILLERY FIRING).
  SIR GEORGE BADEN-POWELL: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether the Report of the Inquiry respecting the proposed Artillery by-laws for Spithead and the Solent has yet been sent in and considered; and, whether a copy thereof can be laid upon the Table before any further decision is arrived at by the Government?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. RITCHIE,): Yes, Sir, the report of the Inquiry held by Sir George Nares as regards the proposed Artillery by-laws for Spithead and the Solent has been received. A copy of it was sent to the War Office for their consideration, and the Board of Trade have not at present approved of the bylaws. The Report is of a confidential nature, and, as at present advised, I do not think that a copy can be properly laid on the Table.

  PETTY SESSIONS COURTS (IRELAND).
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will introduce a Bill during the present Session of Parliament to prevent Grand Juries in Ireland from allowing Petty Sessions Courts to be used as Orange Lodges?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No, Sir, it will be time enough to think of such a Measure when any reason for it has been shown.

  JURYMEN'S EXPENSES (IRELAND).
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland if he could undertake to bring about such a change in the law as would provide that the hotel expenses and cost of travelling of common jurors, in attendance at Assizes and Quarter Sessions Courts in Ireland, should be borne by the Imperial Exchequer?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. J. ATKINSON,): The question of the payment of Jurors is one which must, I think, be dealt with in a general Measure applicable to the three Kingdoms, if dealt with at all. I cannot, therefore, give the undertaking asked for by the hon. Member.

  MAGISTRATES (IRELAND).
  MR. MACALEESE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) has any magistrate, or have any magistrates, been relieved of the Commission of the Peace within recent years in Ireland for adjudicating outside certain prescribed areas in the counties for which they held their appointment; (2) what were the names of such magistrates and for what counties did they hold their Commissions; and (3) will he have the regulation rescinded which prevents certain magistrates from exercising jurisdiction except in prescribed areas of the counties for which they hold their Commissions?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No public advantage would be gained by giving the information indicated in the first two paragraphs of this Question, and as to the third paragraph, the reply is in the negative.

  EDUCATIONAL ENDOWMENTS (IRELAND).
  COLONEL SAUNDERSON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the great dissatisfaction existing amongst the Protestant population in Ireland in consequence of the acceptance by the Government of the Bill of the hon. Member for Louth, affecting existing Educational Endowments; and, what course the Government propose to take regarding the Bill?
  MR. E. CARSON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether his attention has been called to the Resolution passed by the Archbishops and Bishops of the Church of Ireland, deprecating the changes proposed in the law regulating the Educational Endowment Commission; and, what steps the Government propose to take in relation to such proposed changes?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am aware that much dissatisfaction has been excited among Protestants in Ireland in connection with the Bill of the hon. Member for North Louth—a feeling which I cannot help thinking is, for the most part, due to a misconception of the views of the Government upon the subject. While not opposing the Second

  1131
  Reading of the Bill, I indicated that it could not be allowed to pass without extensive alterations. The question whether it is possible to effect the changes which we consider necessary by means of Amendments to the Bill appears doubtful, and is now under consideration. Under these circumstances, perhaps, my hon. and gallant Friend will postpone the last part of his question, relating to the course the Government propose to take, for a few days.

  EVICTED FARM (WESTPORT).
  COLONEL SAUNDERSON: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that a man, named Scanlon, was fired at twice at Westport on the 21st inst., for taking an evicted farm; and that a meeting was held recently in the neighbourhood, at which Mr. W. O'Brien held up land grabbers to public odium; and what steps the Government are taking to prevent such teaching bearing further fruit?
  MR. MICHAEL DAVITT: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman before he answers that Question whether it is the fact that the village where the firing is alleged to have taken place is 40 miles distant from the place Mr. William O'Brien made his speech at?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I do not think this Question refers to that village at all. Two shots were fired at a distance of about 80 yards from the house of Peter Scahill, to whom this Question presumably refers, on the night of the 14th inst. There is no evidence, however, to show that they were fired at Scahill. Scahill is in occupation of an evicted farm in the district of Westport and county of Mayo. A meeting was held at Cahir, 40 miles away, in the same county, some days previously, at which Mr. O Brien used language of the nature indicated. The police have taken, and will continue to take, whatever steps seem necessary to protect Scahill and other persons who, in the exercise of their legal rights, take and occupy farms from which the former tenants have been evicted.

  SLAVERY IN ZANZIBAR.
  MR. THOMAS BAYLEY: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign
  1132
  Affairs when he will lay upon the Table the correspondence giving Mr. Hardinge the instructions of the Government in fulfilment of their undertaking to abolish the legal status of slavery in the island of Zanzibar?
  MR. CURZON: The instructions will be laid in due course, but I cannot at the present moment name a date.

  OYSTER CULTURE.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, owing to the publication by the Local Government Board of a Report on Cholera, and of another Report on Oyster Culture in Relation to Disease, public confidence in the wholesomeness of oysters has been so much impaired that the annual consumption of oysters has fallen off to the extent of three-fourths, and a large number of the fishing poulalation have been reduced to distress; whether he has observed that the reports alluded to condemn only a few small oyster layings round the coasts of England, while many of the chief layings, including the whole of those on the coast of Kent, were declared free from contamination; whether he is aware that the Kentish layings thus pronounced free from disease are more extensive than all those in the rest of the Kingdom put together; and whether he is aware that they have suffered from the lack of demand equally with the polluted layings; whether, with a view to restore public confidence in a valuable article of diet and assist the fishing population, he will recommend the appointment of inspectors of layings, and also of all shops and stalls for the sale of oysters, authorised to enforce such conditions of sanitation as may effectually safeguard the public against disease; whether he is aware that foreign oysters are frequently introduced into this country from polluted layings, and that the only instance of enteric fever in an epidemic form arising in England from oysters was traced to the eating of Dutch oysters; and whether he will therefore recommend that it shall be made a penal offence to sell oysters brought from foreign layings without declaring their origin at the time of sale and without plainly marking such origin?
  MR. RITCHIE: I have little doubt that the reports referred to have, to some extent, impaired the confidence of the public in the wholesomeness of oysters, but I venture to think that my hon. Friend overestimates the decrease in their consumption. I am aware that, whilst only a certain number of beds are condemned, others have suffered from the reduction in demand. The trade has brought the matter to the notice of my right hon. colleague the President of the Local Government Board, whose province it is to deal with questions affecting the public health; but if it should be found that the Board of Trade can take any useful action in the matter, I shall be ready to give careful consideration to any proposals which may be laid before me. As at present advised I do not think that the marking of foreign oysters—[laughter]—would be either feasible or an efficient remedy.

  AGRICULTURAL IMPROVEMENTS (IRELAND).
  MR. GILHOOLY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether any alteration has taken place since the passing of the Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881, with regard to advances for works of agricultural improvement, pursuant to section 31; whether a tenant farmer, whose poor law valuation is £7, can. now obtain a loan; whether every tenant farmer, whose poor law valuation is £7 and upwards, having sufficient security to offer, can obtain an advance by way of loan to the amount of five times his poor law valuation, and if there has been a new departure, what reason can he assign for it?
  *MR. HANBURY: Originally the minimum loan was £100 (reduced to £50 in 1883), and the maximum equal to five times the poor law valuation. Since 1892 the minimum has been reduced to £35, and the maximum fixed at three times the poor law valuation or judicial rent, if no collateral security is given, or five times if collateral security is forthcoming. The alteration was shown, by the experience of the first decade during which the Act was in operation, to be necessary in order to avoid undue risk to the Exchequer. It follows that a tenant whose valuation is £7 only cannot obtain a loan on any
  1134
  terms for less than £35. If he can give collateral security he may obtain a loan for £35, which is five times his valuation or judicial rent. The hon. Member will find information on the point on pages 16 and 17 of the Board of Works report for the year 1894–95.
  MR. GILHOOLYsaid he would call attention to the subject on the Estimates.

  METROPOLITAN POLICE CLOTHING.
  SIR LEWIS McIVER: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, with reference to favourable replies given by him to similar questions last Session, whether he has been able to make arrangements for an issue of light clothing to the Metropolitan Police for use in the summer months?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY,): Yes, Sir, such arrangements have been made.

  LICENSING SESSIONS (BALLYBOT).
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that County Court Judge Kisby threatened to report Mr. William Adams, J.P., to the Lord Chancellor for voting at the Licensing Sessions at Ballybot in October last; whether Mr. Adams was within his right in voting at those Sessions; and whether Judge Kisby was justified in publicly reprimanding him?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Mr. Adams is a Justice of the Peace residing at Portadown, and, so far as Judge Kisby was aware, had not been in the habit of attending Ballybot Sessions. He appeared, however, at these Sessions on the 6th October last, and Judge Kisby animadverted on the growing habit of Justices going to Licensing Sessions outside the division in which their Petty Sessions districts are situated, for the purpose of voting in licensing case?. The learned Judge was clearly within his rights in commenting upon a practice which is evidently undesirable, and the matter is now under the consideration of the Lord Chancellor.

  LICENSING SESSIONS (BALLYBOT).

    ORDNANCE STORE DEPARTMENT.
    *SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Financial Secretary to the War Office what number of men are employed in the Ordnance Store Department who receive less than 20s. a week; and, how many men there are in the Ordnance Factories who receive less than 24s. a week?
    *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): The number of men at present employed in the Army Ordnance Department who receive less than 20s. a week is 1,291. In the Ordnance factories those who receive less than 24s. a week number 1,393. Of these 229 have also pensions; and a large number are young men or men of short service in the factories.

    MARINE INSURANCE POLICIES (STAMP DUTY.)
    SIR GEORGE BADEN-POWELL: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer (1) whether he has received several memorials from commercial and underwriting associations, pointing out the burdensome character of the existing rate of stamp duties on marine insurance policies; (2) whether the present minimum rate of duty on a marine policy is 3d. per cent. while the duty on any other form of policies on property is 1d. per policy, irrespective of the amount insured; and (3) whether action can be taken towards assimilating the duty on marine policies to that of fire policies to the great relief of the British commercial community?
    *THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The answer to the first question is, Yes. The present minimum rate of duty on a marine policy is one penny on all policies where the premium amounts to 2s. 6d. or less per cent. of the sum insured. The question of reducing the duty above this point is under my consideration, but the suggestion of the hon. Member would involve a considerable sacrifice of revenue, and I can make no promise with regard to it.

    LEE-METFORD RIFLE (MANCHESTER VOLUNTEERS).
    SIR WILLIAM HOULDSWORTH: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War when the Lee-Metford rifle will be received by the Manchester Volunteers?
    *MR. BRODRICK: The Manchester Volunteers will be supplied with the Lee-Metford rifle during the next financial year, and as soon as possible after the 1st November next.

    VACCINATION ACT (IRELAND).
    MR. J. C. FLYNN: On behalf of the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. J. PINKERTON), I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if the Local Government Board (Ireland) can compel Poor Law Guardians to put into practice the compulsory clause of the Vaccination Act?
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The Local Government Board have power to pass any regulations they think fit to prevent the spread of dangerous infectious diseases, such as small-pox, and thus to compel compliance with the Vaccination laws. No Boards of Guardians in Ireland have, I may add, refused to do their duty in this respect.

    IRISH MAILS.
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether there is a Treasury Minute, bearing the date 19th October 1855, referring to the conveyance of passengers by Irish mail trains between London and Holyhead; and whether he has any objection to give the terms of the Minute or lay it upon the Table of the House?
    *MR. HANBURY: Yes, Sir, there is such a Treasury Minute. It deals with a Private Act of 1855 which was passed for the express purpose of improving the passenger as well as the postal communication between England and Ireland, and it therefore stands on a different footing from an ordinary Treasury Minute dealing with postal communications only. It has already been laid before Parliament and was printed as House of Commons Paper No. 27 of the year 1856.

    VOLUNTARY SCHOOL BILLS.
    MR. J. BRIGG: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, if, in the definitions of the Voluntary School, the expression "Voluntary School" may be taken to include the evening classes as well as the day

    1137
    classes which exist in public elementary day schools?
    THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir JOHN GORST,): A Voluntary School is defined to be a day school. A day school would not mean an evening class. [Laughter.]

    LETTERS FOR SIBERIA.
    MR. J. COLVILLE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that many letters and papers dispatched from this country to Siberia never reach their destination; and if so, whether he can give any explanation regarding this, or hold out any prospect of improvement in this direction for the future?
    MR. HANBURY: The Postmaster General is not aware of the fact alleged in the Question, but, if the hon. Member will send to the Post Office particulars of any cases which may have occurred, a communication on the subject will be addressed to the Russian Post Office.

    HIGH SHERIFF (CARRICKFERGUS).
    MR. D. KILBRIDE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he is aware that Captain Higginson, who was appointed for 1897 high sheriff for the county of the town of Carrickfergus, refuses to act; whether any, and if so, what proceedings have been instituted by the Attorney General in the matter; under what authority can a citizen in Ireland be compelled to accept an office which frequently involves considerable loss of time and money; and if he will give the name and address of the person now discharging the duties belonging to the office of high sheriff in Carrickfergus?
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Captain Higginson has refused to serve. Proceedings by criminal information have been instituted against him at the suit of the Attorney General. It has long been established that any person who, having been appointed Sheriff, refuses to serve, is guilty of a misdemeanour. A gentleman named Hutchinson was proceeded against similarly for a like refusal in the year 1893 by the late Government. The Sheriff of last year, Mr. Wilson, is bound to discharge the duties of the office till his successor has entered upon his duties.

    LAND COMMISSION (IRELAND).
    MR. KILBRIDE: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the Return granted to the hon. Member for South Down in connection with the Land Commissioners has been prepared, and whether he can say when it will be circulated?
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Every effort is being made to complete the preparation of the Return referred to without unnecessary delay, and it will be laid on the Table as soon as I receive it.

    TREASON FELONY PRISONERS.
    MR. M. DAVITT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has received a petition signed by 9,00ft citizens of Johannesburg, asking for the release of the few remaining Irish political prisoners; and if, in obedience to the appeal made by so large a number in that city, he can see his way to recommend the liberation of these men during this jubilee year of Her Majesty's reign?
    SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: I have received a petition to the effect mentioned, signed by a large number of residents in Johannesburg and the South African Republic generally, but I am afraid my answer must be that I have nothing to add to my recent statements in the House on this subject.

    INDIAN MINTS.
    SIR HENRY MEYSEY-THOMPSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India whether any coins have been struck at the Indian Mints either for the Government or anyone else since the date when the privilege of getting rupees coined was withdrawn from the public?
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): The only coins which have been struck at the Indian Mints since June 1893 (with the exception of the coinage of silver in transit at that time) are (1) silver coins representing fractions of the rupee, to the value of Rx.504,624; (2) copper coins for the Indian Government, for native States, for the British East Africa Company, and for the Straits and Ceylon Governments; and (3) British dollars, for Eastern trade, at the request of the Colonial Office.

    BRISLEY (NORFOLK) PARISH COUNCIL.
    MR. FREDERICK WILSON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether it is proposed to hold an official inquiry in respect to the application of the Brisley (Norfolk) Parish Council for a loan of £50 for a new burial ground, notwithstanding that the Norfolk County Council has already held an inquiry in the village and consented to the loan, while the parish meeting has unanimously approved the scheme, and the owners and occupiers within 100 yards of the proposed site have given their written consents; whether the cost of a further inquiry will absorb a large proportion of the £50 to be borrowed; and, whether, under these circumstances, the cost of further investigation will be borne by the parish?
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. HENRY CHAPLIN,): It is the practice of the Local Government Board in, the case of applications for sanction to loans for new burial grounds to direct an inquiry by one of their inspectors, as it is necessary that the proposal should be considered from a sanitary point of view, and especially with reference to the possible effect as regards adjacent sources of water supply of the use of the site for burial purposes. On the latter ground there appears to be exceptional reasons for holding the inquiry, although the amount proposed to be borrowed is but small. The Board in such cases arrange that the inquiry shall be held when an inspector can conveniently visit the place in connection with the holding of other inquiries, so that the expense of a separate journey from London may be avoided.

    LOAN FUND SOCIETIES (IRELAND).
    MR. JOHN DILLON: On behalf of the hon. Member for South Donegal (MR. J. SWIFT MACNEILL), I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will make further inquiries into the system of converting renewals into new loans which prevails in the Ballyshannon (County Donegal) Loan Fund Society's office; whether, notwithstanding the information supplied by the clerk at Ballyshannon to the Loan Fund Board, it is the custom for a police pensioner,
    1140
    who is or was a committee man or trustee of the said society, to attend and lend the money to the borrower as he enters the office, and take it from him as he emerges therefrom; whether, in view of the illegalities practised by such societies, such a state of affairs will be allowed to continue; and, whether he will order a further inquiry on oath into the working of the Ballyshannon Loan Fund Society?
    MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I have twice endeavoured to obtain from the clerk of the Ballyshannon Loan Fund Society a satisfactory explanation of the alleged practices complained of in this Question, but without success. The only positive statement I can gather from his reports is that no loans have been renewed by the society since the 25th July last. The whole matter is now, however, receiving the consideration of the Loan Fund Board, who propose to direct their inspector to proceed forthwith to Ballyshannon and inquire into the irregularities referred to.

    TRUCK ACT (FINES).
    MR. S. WOODS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that prior to the passing of the Truck Act last year, a workman could recover from an employer fines deducted from wages, and whether the recovery of fines of a similar character under the Act of 1896, after such fines have been posted up, is impossible; whether he is aware that while the Act of 1896 provides for the punishment of employers who make illegal fines, and also compels the production of copies of contracts in respect to fines in Clause 6 of the Act, there is no provision for jurisdiction on railways by inspectors, the power being given only to inspectors of factories and mines: and, whether, under these circumstances, he will make adequate provision for the proper protection of railway employees?
    SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: The state of the law prior to the passing of the Truck Act was, so far as I was able to ascertain, the exact contrary of that suggested in the Question. On coming to the Homo Office I consulted the highest legal authorities on the point, and was advised by them that a deduction from wages in respect of fines was not only, as had been decided by a series of

    1141
    cases in the Courts ranging over 30 years, not an offence against the Track Acts, but was not even recoverable by the workman in the civil Courts. The law was fully explained in the memorandum on the subject which I laid upon the Table of the House last year, and to which I would refer the hon. Member. The statements in that memorandum were not controverted while the present Act was under discussion, or, as far as I am aware, since. Under the present Act it is now possible within six months to recover by civil proceedings so much of any fine as the Court may hold to be unreasonable. I am quite aware that the jurisdiction of the inspectors of factories and mines docs not extend to railways or to many other employments. I have now under my consideration the lists of fines proposed by the companies.

    BRITISH TROOPS IN INDIA (HEALTH).
    MR. ROBERT CAMERON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India if he will state what are the terms of the reference to the Departmental Committee now sitting on the subject of venereal disease among British troops in India,; whether the evidence taken by the Committee will be circulated as soon as complete: and, whether the House will be afforded an opportunity of discussing the question before any action is taken by the Imperial or the Indian Governments?
    LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: The terms of reference were as follows:—
    "To examine the official returns of venereal disease among British troops stationed in India, and to report what changes, if any, have taken place during recent years in the prevalence of such disease and in its character and intensity; also, to obtain and report any information which may be available with regard to the presence of venereal disease and its character and intensity among foreign armies."
    The report is now under my consideration, and will be published. The evidence on which it is founded being almost entirely documentary, has not been separately recorded, but is embodied or referred to in the Report. I am at present unable to say what course may be taken by Her Majesty's Government; but, undoubtedly, the House will have an opportunity of discussing any decision we may arrive at.

    BRITISH UITLANDER POPULATION, TRANSVAAL.
    SIR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether the Transvaal Volksraad have passed a Law making the High Court of the Transvaal subject to resolutions of the Volksraad, and placing the Judges under the Boer Executive; and, if so, what steps Her Majesty's Government propose to take to secure impartial justice and the protection of Law for the British Uitlander population?
    THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): I understand that such a Law as the hon. Member describes has been introduced into the Volksraad, but I have no information that it has been passed. In any event, the protection of British subjects in the South African Republic is secured by the Convention, which Her Majesty's Government have declared their intention to maintain in its integrity.

    ARMENIA.
    MR. JAMES BRYCE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the attention of Her Majesty's Government has been called to a statement reported to have been made by the French Minister for Foreign Affairs in the French Chamber on 22nd February, that in November 1895 when the Powers were deliberating on the course to be pursued towards the Sultan with reference to the massacres in Armenia, England pronounced for pacific means; whether Her Majesty's Government accept that statement as correct; and whether if it is correct, he will inform the House in what Dispatch laid before Parliament such a decision of Her Majesty's Government is stated or referred to?
    *MR. CURZON: M. Hanotaux's actual words were that "England did not think fit to have recourse to other than pacific measures." This statement, which appears to be a general version on the part of the French Minister for Foreign Affairs of the attitude of Her Majesty's Government in the autumn of 1895, is not contained in any Dispatch.

    HOLLOWAY PRISON (SELINA, LADY SCOTT).
    MR. PICKERSGILL: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he has given permission to Dr. Bond, in conjunction with the medical officer of Holloway Prison, to examine a prisoner named Selina, Lady Scott, with a view to reporting to him upon the state of Lady Scott's health; and, if. so, upon what grounds has this permission been given?
    SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY: It is the case that Lady Scott has been seen by Dr. Bond. As I have stated in the House on several occasions, the visiting committee have very large powers of granting visits in the case of first-class misdemeanants; and when the application that Dr. Bond might visit Lady Scott was received by the Prison Commissioners, it was referred by them to the committee, who allowed the visit. I am of opinion, however, that professional visits of this nature do not come within the rules, and I have given directions that all such applications in future shall be referred to me for my decision.

    MISSION TO KING MENELIK.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government have decided to send a Special Mission to King Menelik; and, if so, what are the objects of this mission?
    *MR. CURZON: The mission is sent to assure King Menelik of our friendly intentions, to endeavour to promote amicable political and commercial relations, and to settle certain questions which have arisen between the British authorities in the Somali Coast Protectorate and the Abyssinian Governor of Harrar.
    MR. J. M. MACLEAN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs if Her Majesty's Government will attach a representative of British commercial interests to the political and military mission they are sending to the court of King Menelik?
    *MR. CURZON: It will not be possible on this occasion to send any special representative of British commercial interests with the mission. But Mr. Rodd will receive instructions to pay particular attention to those interests in his communications with the Abyssinian Court.

    SALISBURY PLAIN.
    MR. CHAS. COLSTON: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury what steps the Government propose to take in connection with the purchase of land on Salisbury Plain for Military purposes, for the protection of ancient monuments?
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): If there are monuments of interest on the land proposed to be bought they will be carefully preserved by the Government.

    AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS.
    MR. G. LAMBERT: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury if he can say when a Bill will be introduced by the Government to amend the Law relating to agricultural holdings?
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I am afraid that in the present condition of public business I could give no answer to the hon. Gentleman on the point.

    CRETE.
    MR. F. A. CHANNING: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether it is true, as stated in the Dispatch of Colonel Vassos, that Turkish troops sallied from Canea to attack the advanced positions of the insurgents or to defend positions held by Turks; and, whether this was done by the orders or with the approval of the representatives of the Powers at Canea?
    MR. F. S. STEVENSONalso asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, in view of the fact that the Powers made arrangements to prevent an attack upon Canea, what steps they took to prevent a sally of the Turkish troops from that town for the purpose of attacking the Cretan position?
    *MR. CURZON: According to our information, no sally from the town took place.
    MR. STEVENSONasked the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs who gave the signal for the bombardment of the Cretan position by the combined fleet of the Powers.
    *MR. CURZON: I answered this Question on Tuesday.
    MR. STEVENSON: The right hon. Gentleman was then unable to state who gave the signal. He said he had no information.
    *MR. CURZON: I beg pardon. I said I believed the signal was always given by the senior Naval officer, who in this case was the Italian Admiral.
    GENERAL SIR HENRY HAVELOCKALLAN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government, with a view to the earlier cessation of hostilities in Crete, will give orders to the British Fleet pending reply from the Five Powers to the Circular Note addressed to them by Lord Salisbury, to prevent the landing in Crete of provisions for the Greek forces and the Cretan insurgents, which provisions, equally with munitions of war, cannot fail to prolong the duration of the struggle?
    *MR. CURZON: The British Admiral having instructions to act in concert with the other Naval commanders, no separate orders can be sent to him to act in independence of his colleagues.
    MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Government have received any confirmation of the telegram that owing to the encouraging effect of the bombardment of the Cretan position by the allied squadron on Sunday last, the Turkish cannon were firing upon the Christians both on the Suda and on the Galata side of Akrotiri; whether it is a fact thas the outposts of the Greek army in camp at Platania were also fired upon repeatedly by the Turks, and that they (the Greeks) did not return the fire; and whether he will state whether the instructions issued to the British Admiral in command orders the prevention by bombardment of the advance of Cretan Christians, but allow the Turkish troops and Mohammedan irregulars to continue without interference warlike operations against the Cretan insurgents and the Greek army.
    MR. H. J. WILSON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the attention of Her Majesty's Government has been called to the statements to the effect that the encouraging effect of Sunday's event upon the Turks
    1146
    is already visible, and that both on the Suda Bay side and on the Galata side of Akrotiri the Turkish cannon have been busily firing upon the Christians, who had not replied, fearing lest they should be shelled by the foreign warships; and whether Her Majesty's Government will forthwith send orders to the Consul General and the Naval officers that the Turkish officers must be warned to desist from these operations, and that the English fleet will take steps to prevent by force any further attack by Turks upon Christian positions?
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the Turkish cannon, both on the Suda and Galata side of Akrotiri, have been busily firing on the Christians since Sunday, the Christians not replying fearing lest they should be shelled by the Foreign war ships?
    *MR. CURZON: The only information that we possess with reference to the points raised in these three Questions is to the effect that throughout Monday desultory firing continued to the south of the town, and that yesterday fighting was going on on both sides of Suda Bay. It is clear that this information applies to both combatants.
    MR. H. J. WILSON: The right hon. Gentleman has not replied to the latter part of my Question.
    *MR. CURZON: Well, Sir, I have already replied to it in answer to another Question. So far as we know, these operations have not taken place.
    MR. CHANNING: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether representations have been made by the Greek Minister in this country protesting against the action of the fleet in shelling the Cretan positions, and conveying the substance of the resolution adopted by the Greek Chamber to the effect that a protest be sent to the Powers concerned against the bombarding of Christians as an act unparalleled in the history of the world; and what reply has been given to the Greek Minister?
    *MR. CURZON: No such communication has been received.
    MR. D. F. GODDARD: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been called to the statement that the Turks opened a brisk fire on the Cretans

    1147
    while they were picking up their dead and wounded; and what steps have been taken to prevent a recurrence of such a practice?
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the statement is true that, immediately after the British ships had ceased firing on the Cretans, and as the Cretans were picking up their dead and wounded, the Turks at the nearest outposts opened a brisk fire, to which the Cretans, disheartened by the fire of the warships, did not reply?
    *MR. CURZON: So far as our information goes the statement is incorrect. No wounded were seen.
    MR. DILLON: The question is whether, after the British ships ceased firing, the Turkish troops opened fire on the Greeks while they were carrying away their wounded?
    *MR. CURZON: As I have already said, we have received no information that there were any wounded. ["Hear, hear," and laughter.]
    MR. DILLON: Is it not a fact that the admirals offered to send on shore medical officers to attend the wounded? [Cheers.]
    *MR. CURZON: It is perfectly true, but the Greek commander would not let them go. [Cheers.]
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: Because there were no wounded.
    SIR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Her Majesty's Government and the Governments of the other Great Bowers have decided to send the armed European force of 300 men necessary, in the opinion of the Consuls of Italy, Russia, and England, to save from massacre 3,000 Mussulmans now beleaguered at Kaudamos and Selinos?
    *MR. CURZON: No reply has yet been received to a telegram of inquiry which was addressed to the British admiral on the subject, but we know that on the 23rd the admirals were concerting measures for the relief of the beleaguered districts.
    MR. H. LABOUCHERE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (1) whether he can inform the House what is the distance between Canea and the
    1148
    Cretan village bombarded by the fleets of the Great Powers; (2) whether any Turkish vessel joined in that bombardment; (3) whether any Turkish vessel fired on the insurgents before or after that bombardment; and (4) whether any Turkish forces have moved from the towns occupied by the Great Powers in Crete since that occupation, and have attacked outside these towns the Cretan forces?
    *MR. CURZON: So far as we can gather, the position taken up by the insurgents on the heights commanding the town must have been between one and two miles from the walls of the latter. We have no reason to believe that the statements in paragraphs 2 and 3 are correct. In answer to paragraph 4, no troops, as I have previously said, advanced from the town, nor have the Turks advanced beyond their former outposts.
    MR. CHANNING: Is the right hon. Gentleman in a position to state whether the insurgents have artillery which can command the town?
    *MR. CURZON: I think so. It was from the fear that they were going to plant that artillery in a position to command the town that the action of the fleets took place. [Cheers.]
    MR. BRYCE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether Turkish transports, carrying Turkish troops from one part of the coast of Crete to another, have been escorted by British ships of war?
    *MR. CURZON: We have no information to that effect.
    MR. BRYCE: As I put this Question down last Tuesday—[cheers]—and as we have still received no information, I give notice that I shall repeat the Question. [Cheers.]
    MR. FLYNN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, on Monday and Tuesday last, the Turkish cannon on the Suda and Galata side of Akrotiri fired upon the Christian troops, who did not reply for fear of being shelled by the warships of the Powers; and whether a protest has been sent by the Cretan Christian troops to the Foreign admirals complaining of such action?
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether a formal protest has been received by the Foreign admirals from the

    1149
    insurgents; and whether, in that protest, the insurgents state that they are afraid to reply to the Turkish fire for fear of being annihilated by the Christian guns, and that on Sunday the Turks were aggressors in firing.
    *MR. CURZON: We have not yet received a reply to inquiries that have been made on the first point. The second question is identical with No. 55 standing in the name of the hon. Member for East Mayo. We know nothing of any such protest.
    MR. FLYNN: I shall put the Question again To-morrow.
    MR. DILLON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether on Sunday several shells were thrown into the gardens of the Convent of the Prophet Elias, and three women, of whom one was a nun, were wounded; and whether the Government can yet state how many were killed and wounded by the fire of the ships?
    *MR. CURZON: The only information we have on the first point is that the insurgents had taken up a position at Prophet Elias, and that the fire of the squadron obliged them to haul down their flag. We do not know how many were killed or wounded, the Greek Commodore having declined to allow medical officers from the fleet to make inquiry on the spot. No wounded, however, were seen.
    MR. DILLON: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the admirals took any steps to inform themselves as to whether there were women in the convent before they opened fire, and what period of notice they gave before the guns opened fire? [Cheers.]
    *MR. CURZON: I do not think it is at all certain that the convent was fired on at all—[cheers]—and if I may judge of the accuracy of this statement by that of many others proceeding from the newspapers which I am called upon to comment on, I should say that it was, on the whole, probably inaccurate.
    MR. DILLON: I respectfully ask the right hon. Gentleman to make inquiries, as the statement is taken from the Correspondent of The Times at Canea. [Cheers.]
    DR. TANNER: May I ask whether it is not the fact that even if the medical officers were not absolutely consulted—
    *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order. If the hon. Member continues to interrupt the business of the House I shall be compelled to request him to leave the House for the remainder of the sitting. [Cheers.]
    DR. TANNER: Quite right. Certainly. I would sooner leave it than be in it.
    MR. CHANNING: What steps have the Government taken to ascertain the accuracy of a statement made by The Times Correspondent and other persons?
    *MR. CURZON: It is quite impossible for Her Majesty's Government to be telegraphing out every five minutes of the day to test the accuracy or the inaccuracy of the various statements emanating from foreign correspondents that appear in the newspapers of the United Kingdom. [Cheers.]
    MR. THOMAS BAYLEY: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Government have had any official Report from the British Admiral in Cretan waters of what took place on Sunday last?
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: All the information at the disposal of the Government from the Admiral has already been given to the House in answer to questions addressed to my right hon. Friend the Under Secretary. I have nothing to add.

    MINISTERIAL STATEMENT.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The Prime Minister, in another place, in answer to a Question, has made a statement on behalf of the Government in regard to the policy in Crete, and, although no Question has been addressed to me, I propose to make an identical statement to this House if they will permit me. We have recommended to our allies that the following policy should be adopted:—
    "(1) That the establishment of administrative autonomy in Crete is, in our judgment, a necessary condition to the termination of the international occupation; (2) that, subject to the above provision, Crete ought, in our judgment, to remain a portion of the Turkish Empire; (3) that Turkey and Greece ought to be informed by the Powers of the above resolution; and (4) that if either Turkey or Greece persistently refuse, when required, to withdraw their naval and military forces from the island, the Powers should impose their decision by force upon the State so refusing."
    We have received no official information that these views are shared by all our

    1151
    allies; but we have every reason to believe that they are. [Cheers.]
    *SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I am sure that the House will feel the extreme gravity of the announcement made by the right hon. Gentleman, affecting, as it does, the relations of this country, not only at present, but in future, with all the Powers of Europe, with the Government of Turkey, and with the Government of Greece, especially in the last paragraph relating to the employment of force. The House ought to address itself to this question with due deliberation, and we ought to have time to consider the bearing of the statement made by Her Majesty's Government, and not enter upon it without consideration. At the same time I am sure that the Government will feel, and the House will feel, that we ought to have an opportunity of properly asking for further explanations with reference to the policy of Her Majesty's Government. [Cheers.] I am quite sure that that is a view in which Her Majesty's Government will concur, and therefore I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will intimate his willingness to enter into arrangements, which may be made according to the convenience of the House, for an early discussion of this matter, with a view to further explanations on behalf of Her Majesty's Government. I would venture to suggest that To-morrow may be a convenient day. [An HON. MEMBER: "That is Friday."]
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The appeal which has been made by the right hon. Gentleman must, of course, be considered favourably by Her Majesty's Government, having regard to the quarter from which the appeal comes. But I would remind the right hon. Gentleman that we have already had two adjournments on the subject of Crete; and that if this appeal is merely for the purpose of eliciting information and having a desultory discussion, strict limits of time ought to be placed on any Debate which may be raised. ["Hear, hear!"] Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman desires to move a Vote of Censure upon the Government, that is an entirely different matter, and I should not desire to burke any suggestion that might be necessary under such circumstances. I should be glad to consider with the right hon.
    1152
    Gentleman what course ought to be pursued, but I say at once that I do not think that To-morrow would be a convenient day for it, as it would interfere with the Friday Rule, and in addition to that I think that it would be specially inconvenient at present that the time for discussing the Supplementary Estimates, which are very pressing, should be unduly cut short. [Cheers.]
    *SIR W. HARCOURT: Certainly it would not be consistent with the views I have presented that we should desire at present and be prepared to move a Vote of Censure upon Her Majesty's Government. What we are asking for is an explanation to the House and the country of the policy which the Government are pursuing, and which, I understand, the other Powers of Europe are pursuing. It is quite obvious that the discussion and explanation should take place at the earliest possible moment, and we do not require at this time anything beyond explanations from Her Majesty's Government. But I would still suggest to the right hon. Gentleman that, if there are to be these explanations on the part of the Government, it would be inconvenient to postpone them for several days—inconvenient to the Government, inconvenient to the country, and inconvenient with reference to the negotiations that are going on. After all, the Supplementary Estimates might be taken upon another day. The sooner this question is taken out of public rumour by authoritative statements on the part of the Government of a much fuller description than that we have to-night, the better it will be for all parties concerned. ["Hear, hear!"]
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I may say, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman, that I think we have done our best by so far departing from ordinary diplomatic traditions as to make this statement of our views before receiving full and formal assent of those views from our colleagues. I think that it would be a pity if the discussion should take place as early as to-morrow, before that assent has been received. We shall be in a far better position to discuss the matter at a later date. I, therefore, still adhere to the view that a later date would be better.
    *SIR W. HARCOURT: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will say Monday? [Cries of "No."]
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: That must, of course, depend upon the state of the negotiations, but I shall be glad to communicate with the right hon. Gentleman on the subject.
    MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman what is meant by the expression "administrative autonomy"? Does he mean that the people of Crete are to have the power to make their laws, or are they to be subject to the control of the Turkish Government?
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: Well, Sir, there are plenty of instances of autonomy in the Turkish Empire already. ["Hear, hear!" and laughter.]

  ORDERS OF THE DAY.

    VOLUNTARY SCHOOLS BILL.
    Order for Committee read.
    The following Notices of Motion stood upon the Paper:—
    MR. LAMBERT: To move—
    "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert Clauses in the Bill to provide that the schoolrooms in schools that receive an aid grant, on such occasions as do not interfere with the educational purposes of the schools, and under the condition of payment of all reasonable expenses by the conveners of the meeting should be at the disposal of the inhabitants of the district in which such school is situated for the purpose of holding public meetings."
    MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH: To move—
    "That it he an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert Clauses in the Bill to provide that in schools receiving aid grant no teacher shall be required to perform any extraneous duty, that is to say, any duty other than those of teaching in the school and instructing the pupil teachers therein."
    MR. ELLIS GRIFFITH: To move—
    "That it he an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert Clauses in the Bill to provide that in school districts where there is no Board School it shall not he required as a condition of any pupil teacher being appointed in a public elementary school in such districts that such pupil teacher shall he or not be a member of any particular religious denomination, or shall attend or abstain from attending any particular place of religious worship."
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: To move—
    "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert Clauses in the Bill with a view to making provision for insuring adequate representation of local authorities or parents on the management of the schools in receipt of the aid grant."
    MR. SYDNEY GEDGE: To move—
    "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to enable the managers of Voluntary Schools to contract with School Boards for the supply of the education required by the Education Code to such children and on such terms as to payment, inspection, representation or otherwise as may be agreed between them."
    MR. CHANNING: To move—
    "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert Clauses in the Bill to create elective authorities in districts where there is no School Board, to prepare schemes from time to time for the apportionment of the aid grant, and to give power to School Boards to prepare such schemes for their districts."
    *MR. SPEAKER: There are several Instructions to the Committee on this Bill on the Order Paper. The first is in the name of the hon. Member for South Molton (Mr. Lambert). It introduces a subject that appears to me to be foreign to the subjects dealt with in the Bill, and on that ground it is out of order. The next Instruction stands in the name of the hon. Member for Anglesey (Mr. Ellis Griffith). That proposes to provide that as a condition for receiving the grant no teacher in a Voluntary School shall be required to perform any extraneous—i.e,. non-educational—duty. Such a proposal would be in order as an Amendment to the Bill, and therefore it is out of order as an Instruction. The next Instruction which stands upon the Paper is also in the name of the hon. Member for Anglesey, and proposes to make provision for the absence of religious tests for pupil teachers in Voluntary Schools. That appears to me to enter upon matter which is foreign to the whole scope of the Bill. ["Hear, hear!"] The Bill is one for affording relief to Voluntary Schools. The term "Voluntary Schools" is substantially convertible with the term "denominational schools," and to give an Instruction to a Committee on a Bill for the relief of Voluntary Schools to undenominationalise them would be not only foreign to, but contrary to, the whole scope of the Bill. ["Hear, hear!"] The

    1155
    next Instruction stands in the name of the hon. Member for Carnarvon (Mr. Lloyd-George). He proposes that the Committee should have power to insert clauses in the Bill for making provision for insuring adequate representation of local authorities or parents on the management of schools in receipt of the aid grant. That appears to me to be in order as an Instruction. The Bill proposes that certain associations representative of the managers of the schools associated together should be the machinery for distributing the grant in aid, and the Instruction proposes to alter and amend the constitution of these managing bodies. As this is a very large proposal, which only bears indirectly on one of the subjects of the Bill, and as it raises a new principle not hitherto brought under the consideration of the House, it cannot be entertained without an Instruction. The next Instruction stands in the name of the hon. Member for Walsall (Mr. Gedge). It proposes to enable the managers of Voluntary Schools to contract with School Boards for the supply of the education required by the Education Code to such children and on such terms as to payment, inspection, representation or otherwise, as many be agreed between them. That does not relate, it appears to me, either to the relief of Voluntary Schools or to the distribution of the grant in aid. Whether it is a matter that requires legislation or not I do not know, but if it does require legislation it will have to be done by a separate Bill. The next Instruction stands in the name of the hon. Member for Northamptonshire (Mr. Channing). That Instruction in effect proposes to destroy altogether the existing form of management of Voluntary Schools, and to set up in its place elected authorities in districts where there is no School Board. It also proposes to give powers to the School Boards, with which this Bill is not concerned, to prepare schemes for their districts. Both branches appear to me to be outside of the scope of the Bill and out of order. Therefore the only Instraction which is in order is that of the hon. Member for Carnarvon.
    MR. LEONARD COURTNEYasked as a point of order whether it would be competent without an Instruction to move an Amendment in Committee proposing to add some
    1156
    representative element to the existing managing body of a Voluntary School in order to make that school eligible to receive the grant.
    *MR. SPEAKER: Such an Amendment would require an Instruction, and the Instruction standing in the name of the hon. Member for Carnarvon covers the case.
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGEmoved:—
    "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert Clauses in the Bill with a view to making provision for insuring adequate representation of local authorities or parents on the management of the schools in receipt of the aid grant."
    He said his object in moving the Instruction was to enable the Committee to provide for some form of popular representation on the management of schools which received a grant in aid. The figures before the House showed that a large percentage of the income of Voluntary Schools was derived from public funds. He contended that upon the broad principle that representation should follow taxation, which was ingrained to such an extent in the British nation, a certain amount of public control in the management of these schools should be given. In the year 1870 the bulk of the financial support of these schools was derived from local sources, and under the Act of 1870 the principle was recognised that Voluntary Schools should find, at any rate, one half of their incomes locally. That was changed in 1876, when the 17s. 6d. limit was fixed. In 1891 there was a further change made by the addition of the 10s. grant, and now it was proposed to abolish the 17s. 6d. limit altogether, and to give an additional grant of 5s. from the Exchequer. So that, practically, it would be possible in future for a school to derive the whole of its income from public sources, without any provision whatever from public control. ["Hear, hear!"] How that worked in certain cases was best shown by illustrations. In the parish of Llandwrog in Carnarvonshire there were nothing but Voluntary Schools, The grants to the schools in that parish amounted in the aggregate to £264, and the subscriptions and endowments to £21; that was the amount of voluntary support was something like l–14th of the total income of the schools. Four-fifths of the children who attended

    1157
    the schools were children of Nonconformist parents, and the schools being Church schools, their parents had no voice in their management, and no Nonconformist child had a chance of being promoted to the position of a pupil teacher. These children were compelled to attend the schools, and if the Nonconformist parents attempted to set up another school or to get a School Board, under which their children would get equal treatment, it would be open to the Education Department to say that the ground was already covered. He submitted that that state of things was exceedingly unfair. ["Hear, hear!"] He would go to another parish in the same county—Criccieth. There there was a School Board, and probably four-fifths of the population were Nonconformists. There was a Churchman on the Board, the headmaster was a Churchman, and one or two of the teachers were Churchmen also. Here was a case in which a School Board treated Churchmen in exactly the same way as it treated Nonconformists, and yet that parish was not to receive a penny of relief, though it would have to contribute to perpetuate the unfairness which it declined to imitate. ["Hear, hear!"] He would take another School Board district with Voluntary Schools side by side with the Board Schools. In Liverpool, two-thirds of the children attended Voluntary Schools and about one-third attended Board Schools. The grants to the Voluntary Schools amounted to £70,000, the fees to £11,000, and the subscriptions and endowments to £10,600. Thus the subscriptions amounted to something like one-ninth of the total income. ["Hear, hear!"] The parents contributed more than the subscribers, and yet they had no voice in the management of the schools. The subscribers who only contributed one-ninth of the income got the whole of the control, while the taxpayers and parents, who contributed eight-ninths got no voice in the control. ["Hear, hear!"] It might be said that one-third and two-thirds fairly represented the division of opinion in Liverpool, and that the Nonconformists had put their schools under the control of the School Board; but that was not so, for he believed that three-fourths of the members of the Liverpool School Board were denominationalists, so that the result was that all the schools in
    1158
    Liverpool were controlled by the denominationalists. He maintained that that was absolutely unfair. But he commended this Instruction to the House, on the ground of efficiency also. He contended that it would conduce to the increase of efficiency. There were Board Schools with popular control, and Voluntary Schools with no management at all, except that of the clergyman. ["No, no!"] He knew subscribers had nominally a voice in the management, but practically it was left entirely in the hands of the clergyman. ["Hear, hear!"] He would compare the work of the two systems. The grants earned by Board Schools were considerably larger, and that would be seen if the House would deduct from the average grant the amount which did not depend at all on merit. He found that the Board Schools earned 6s. 11½d. per head, and the Voluntary Schools 5s. 5¾d.; so that the Board Schools, who were subject to popular control were superior, so far as the grant earned was concerned. But he maintained that their education was more efficient. The managers of Board Schools were selected on the ground of some peculiar qualification, and if at the end of three years it was shown that they were not capable or competent the ratepayers of the district could dismiss them. That was not so in the case of the managers of Voluntary Schools. They were not selected on the ground of efficiency. They might be efficient or they might not. The fact that a man was a clergyman was not necessarily a qualification for managing a school. Clergymen were not, as a rule, very capable administrators; they were not men of the world, not men of affairs. Therefore, he thought that, as school managers, their ranks ought to be supplemented by men who were men of the world, who knew something about business, and who had an insight into human nature. If six or seven men were elected by the ratepayers on account of their peculiar qualifications for the position, they would collectively make good one another's deficiencies. As long as they continued to make the clergy practically the sole managers of the Voluntary Schools they would find that teachers were selected for other reasons than that of educational fitness. At present a teacher who was a good organist, or was likely to make a good

    1159
    lay preacher, stood a far better chance of appointment than one who was a much more capable educationist but who had not those other extraneous qualifications. It was natural that, when a clergyman had to select between two such men, he should choose the man who would serve the interests of the church best. The present system tempted him to do it, and it ought to be changed, for the most important element in the success of a school was the appointment of a good teacher. If a body of lay managers were appointed, even if they were Churchmen, they would, he believed, control the action of the clergy in respect of these appointments; and so teachers would be chosen for their educational competency, and not for other reasons. By increasing the circle of control they would also widen the circle of school subscribers. The greater the control given to the general public the greater would be the number of the subscribers, and the result of that would be greater educational efficiency. When it was argued that Board Schools were better schools than Voluntary Schools, hon. Members opposite always replied that more money was spent upon the former. That was true; and he maintained that any system which would bring in more money in subscriptions for Voluntary Schools must result in greater educational efficiency, and therefore was desirable from the point of view of the supporters of denominational schools themselves. One way, then, to achieve that result was by enabling local authorities to appoint representatives upon the managing bodies, for that would increase the general interest taken in the schools. But as a rule, the clergy tried to keep the whole management in their own hands. [Ministerial cries of "No!" and "Hear, hear!"] Then, why did they object to parental control? Either they objected to control from the outside or they did not; but if they did not, why should hon. Members opposite oppose this Instruction? What he and his Friends said was, that as long as the taxpayers of the country contributed five-sixths of the income of the Voluntary Schools they were certainly entitled to some share in the management of those schools. On these grounds he begged to move the Instruction standing in his name. ["Hear, hear!"]
    MR. COURTENAY WARNERseconded the Motion. He did not agree that complete control over Voluntary Schools ought to be given to an elected body, but he did hold that the people who paid for these schools ought to have some share in the management of them. There was no doubt that enormous advantages would accrue to these schools if there were one or two elected managers on their boards of management. The educational efficiency of the schools would be greater, and the subscriptions would probably increase, because there would be an extension of the interest taken in these institutions. He had taken considerable pains to ascertain the views of different denominations in his constituency on this subject, and he found that, although the Roman Catholics objected strongly, and naturally, to the exercise of complete control over their schools by elected bodies, objection was very seldom expressed by them to the presence of one elected member on a board. He should not himself object if the power of election were restricted to the parents of the children attending a school. He believed that the presence of even one elected manager would inspire confidence, and render a school ten times more popular than it was before. They often found distrust among the people of any institution over which there was no popular control. At present the accounts of most of the Voluntary Schools were not submitted to the people of the district, so as to enable them to make their voice heard respecting them. If the people were represented by even one elected manager it would give them confidence and a feeling of security that the money subscribed for a school was being properly spent. The school would become much more popular, and parents would be more inclined to send their children to it. By making this slight concession hon. Members opposite would not only reduce the opposition to this Bill, but would strengthen the position of the Church of England by increasing the popularity of Voluntary Schools. If the people gained greater confidence in these schools more Dissenters' children might be expected to go to them than went to them now.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): The hon. Member who moved this

    1161
    Instruction based his Motion upon two grounds—first, on the abstract right to have representation wherever there was taxation, and, secondly, on the ground of expediency—at the same time endeavouring to show that the alteration of the kind he proposes would add to the efficiency of the Voluntary Schools. In so far as the hon. Member's first argument is concerned, I think he must himself feel that this much quoted maxim has very little application to the particular case to which he ventured to apply it, [Cheers.] Because the public Exchequer contributes money to the Voluntary Schools, what right do those who live in the same parish gain to obtain representation on the board of the Voluntary Schools? The two propositions have no congruity; they have no relevancy one to the other; and by no logical process can they be deduced one from the other. Parents in most cases contribute nothing to the Voluntary Schools. There are a certain number of cases in the north where fees are still paid voluntarily for the most part by the parents, but over the larger part of the country, as a matter of fact, education is free, and parents no more than the rest of the ratepayers of the district are called upon to contribute one farthing to the maintenance of the schools. My hon. Friend the Member for the Cambridge University, who spoke on the first night of the introduction of the Bill, put the whole argument in a nutshell when he reminded the House that the contribution from the rates was a good reason for giving ratepayers control, and that contribution from taxes was a good reason for giving the representatives of the taxpayers control, but that contribution from taxes gave no right to the ratepayers and contributions from the rates gave no right to the general taxpayers. That is the whole philosophy so far as the first branch of the hon. Member's argument is concerned. The hon. Member left in absolute vagueness the particular form of control which, if this Instruction were passed, he would desire to see. He expressed at intervals a personal preference towards ratepayers' control, but he interspersed with those expressions of personal predilection the statement that he and ms Friends would be content with parental control. I do not think it would be possible to argue those two kinds of control on their merits
    1162
    and detail until we know which of the two kinds the hon. Member desires to see introduced. I shall not go into any general discussion on the question, but I may say that I am informed by those more intimately cognisant with the Education Acts than I can pretend to be, that while they never discourage parental control, their observation to its effects does not lead them to believe that any results of great magnitude to the benefit of the schools have accrued in any special cases where that system has been tried. I deal next with the second branch of the hon. Member's argument—that of efficiency. The hon. Member appeared to be of opinion that one immediate result of giving local control over the Voluntary Schools would be that voluntary subscriptions would largely increase. [Opposition cheers.] A more amazing conclusion from such premises surely was never advanced in the House of Commons. [Cheers.] Persons have been found to contribute the necessary funds for building a school and the funds for aiding in support of the school solely on the ground that the school belonged to the denomination of which they were members, and is it to be supposed that their liberality would be stimulated by handing the school over by hypothesis to certain Members of the Opposite Party? The hon. Member moves from one control to another as it suits the particular argument with which he deals; but let us take parental control. He gave us the instance of a parish within his personal knowledge, and said, "What a monstrous thing that the parents have no control over the schools." The hon. Member went on to explain that four-fifths of the parents were Nonconformists, and his desire is to hand over the control of the school to the management of parents, four-fifths of whom do not belong to the denomination which has built the school or to the denomination which supports it,
    MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I expressly disclaimed that, I said that parents ought to have a voice in the management but could not claim the complete control.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I do not understand the hon. Member's view. He wants to establish such a constitution of the school, situated as the school described, that the parents shall always take one side, but always be outvoted. ["No, no!"] Are they to

    1163
    have control or not? [Cheers.] If they are not to have control, they are a kind of official Opposition who are never allowed to become a Government. [Laughter.] If, on the other hand, they belong to a minority which may become a majority, what amount of denominational control of the school are they to have? There is no answer to the dilemma in which the hon. Member is placed. If the hon. Member carried out his own principles to their logical conclusions and gave to the parents or the ratepayers complete control over the schools—" No, no!"]—the dominating control—" No!"]—then you do want them to be in a permanent minority? [Laughter.] I cannot conceive machinery less calculated either to promote the efficiency or increase the amount of subscriptions, or bring that harmony into parochial life which the hon. Member would desire to promote. The hon. Member contrasted the efficiency of the two systems, and, by a method of calculation which he did not fully explain, he made out that the Board Schools in the country earned what he called a merit grant—a phrase not known to the Education Code—of a substantial amount per head over the merit grant earned by Voluntary Schools. I do not know what is meant by "merit grant." The phrase was in the Code at one time, but it has disappeared. I am perfectly ready to admit that if you take the Board Schools all over the country and the Voluntary Schools all over the country you will probably find in the Board Schools a higher amount of grant earned than in the Voluntary Schools. It follows probably from two reasons. In the first place, in the country districts the Voluntary School system predominates, and in the towns as well as in the country the Board Schools have behind them the resources of the rates, and the Voluntary Schools have behind them no such resources. Is it not absurd to say that the comparative inefficiency of the Voluntary Schools is due to their management when its real cause stands in such plain characters that anyone can read it? [Cheers.] I do not know that it is necessary to discuss at any greater length the particular merits or demerits of the vague proposal before us. There is in truth an initial objection to the acceptance of this Instruction, the force of which the House will see. We have
    1164
    not brought forward this Bill, and have not pretended to do so, as one dealing with all the difficulties of our present educational system in England. We have not included all the subjects we think ought to be dealt with. We have deliberately, and from the beginning, said that this is not a complete but an incomplete instalment. [Cheers.] We have learned from experience, and in bringing forward this Bill we avowed it to be limited in scope and, because limited, therefore imperfect. Our limitation has been largely dwelt upon in the earlier stages of our Debates—namely, that it excludes poor Board Schools. That cannot be referred to now at any length; and I plainly say that if we are to assent to the scope of this Bill being widened I should prefer to enlarge it in order to include poor School Board districts rather than give "ample room and verge enough" to discuss any possible or probable schemes in the management of Voluntary Schools. I do not believe that the House could touch with advantage the management of Voluntary Schools without there being the very greatest danger of destroying their voluntary character altogether. [Cheers.] I observe that those who are most anxious to deal with the constitution of the Voluntary Schools are those who make no secret whatever of approximating the constitution as far as they can to Board Schools, squeezing them out of existence altogether. The avowed policy of hon. Members is not one which is pretended to benefit the Voluntary Schools. I beg the House not to assent to this Instruction, because I am convinced that the only path of safety which lies before us is to rigidly limit this Bill to the single subject with which it purports to deal. [Cheers.] For these reasons I hope the House will, without any undue delay, refuse to admit the proposed Instruction.
    MR. A. H. DYKE ACLANDcould not help expressing great regret that the right hon. Gentleman should not have seen his way to accept this Instruction. The right hon. Gentleman complained that the proposal was vague, but it was not the business of the Opposition at that moment to produce minute schemes in detail. Their business was to convince the House of Commons that this subject, being one of deep interest to the great mass of country parishes

    1165
    and many populous districts, ought not to be shut out from being debated. Considering that they were going to discuss a Bill which grants £620,000 to the Voluntary Schools, he thought the Leader of the House might be generous enough to allow the matter to be discussed. The hon. Gentleman, speaking of the speech of the hon. Member for Carnarvon Boroughs, said that it was, from the local government point of view, an almost ridiculous proposal, but the right hon. Gentleman himself spoke as if he had a very imperfect knowledge of our country parishes, and the situation he predicted might almost be described as grotesque. Was it not known that even if a single person joined a body like the managers of Church schools he might be of great service, not only to the parents, not only to the inhabitants of the parish themselves, but to the clerical managers of the schools? ["Hear, hear!"] If the right hon. Gentleman would not take it from him, he might take it from letters of clergymen which appeared in The Times last year. In one of these letters a well-known clergyman suggested that
    "Parish Council meetings should have power under the new Bill to appoint a representative on the committee of managers of every elementary school in their respective parishes,"
    and said that this
    "would afford a real security against abuse and unfairness which, to say the least, are always possible, as things now are, in the relations of manager and teacher, teacher and parent, Churchman and Dissenter."
    The other clergyman, speaking of Nonconformists, said,
    "Put one of those suspicious persons on the management and he will be able to tell his friends that his suspicions are all a myth,"
    and he ended his letter by saying, "Churchmen are strong enough to be generous." ["Hear, hear!"] What said Lord Northbrook on this question? He was chairman of his County Council, he knew local life well, and surely what he said deserved attention. The noble Lord said that if additional State aid was given to Voluntary Schools,
    "it will be right that some representative element should be introduced into their committees of management. In country parishes the Parish Council or parish meeting might nominate, or the parents of the children might elect, a proportion of the committee."
    1166
    Those were the very words of the Instruction. [Cheers.] Lord Cross's Commission—which included a principal member of the present Government, Cardinal Manning, the Duke of Norfolk, Lord Harrowby, Canon Gregory, and the junior Member for Oxford University—dealt with this question. First of all they spoke about the managers, and they observed—
    "There are a large number of schools in which the management practically falls into the hands of a single manager—most frequently the clergyman of the parish."
    And again—
    "We would insist, however, upon the importance of Voluntary Schools being placed under a board of management."
    [Cheers.] Would the right hon. Gentleman admit that into the Bill? Would he give them the opportunity of having a Board? And then what did Lord Cross's Commission say?—
    "So long as the parents are not a preponderating element, we should be glad to see them represented on the committee of management."
    [Cheers.] That was what they asked for. Apparently the Government were not going to concede even the opportunity of discussing that now. ["Hear, hear!"] It was all very well to say "Hear, hear," but in many agricultural districts, as Conservative Members opposite knew, this was not a popular thing to do. [Cheers.] As to the distinction the First Lord of the Treasury made about rates and taxes, although the right hon. Gentleman might put the whole philosophy of the question in a sentence, he was not sure, after all, that was the main point at issue. But even if it were, what would the right hon. Gentleman say about the grants in aid of County Councils? Would those grants in aid from the taxes have been made—indeed, were many of them made—until they had set up representative bodies to whom they could in trust money? The House had already recognised the principle, and they were only asking the House to take one very humble step, which would injure nobody, in the same direction. He appealed to Scottish Members, who were so proud of their system, to take one single step with them in the direction of the Scottish system. The Government would boast, no doubt, later on of what they had

    1167
    done for the Wesleyan and British Voluntary Schools, but let them not suppose that the managers of those schools were with the Government in the action they proposed to take that night. They were all of them in favour of some genuine concession towards real representation upon the Voluntary Schools.
    MR. VICARY GIBBSasked on what grounds the right hon. Gentleman made his last statement?
    MR. ACLANDreplied that he would read an extract from a memorial by Lord Salisbury on the subject. Lord Salisbury said:—
    "There should be no increased grant of public funds, either from the local rates or from the Imperial taxes, to denominational schools unless that increased grant is accompanied by adequate and representative public management."
    ["Hear, hear!"] There was a large body of opinion in favour of the principle for which he was contending, including the Royal Commission appointed by the Conservative Government in 1885. He appealed to hon. Gentlemen on the other side, including the First Lord of the Treasury, who believed in the value of the Scottish system—in which the principle in question largely prevailed—to take one step forward with the view of developing a similar system in England. ["Hear, hear!"] They had already gone some way in this direction in connection with our local charities. On the management of many of those charities in rural districts the people were represented, and he ventured to say the effect of adopting the principle had been to the advantage of the charities and their administration, for public confidence in the management had been thereby secured. ["Hear, hear!"] Moreover, there was the case of the endowed schools. Forty years ago numbers of them were managed in the closest possible manner, by clerical managers, or purely self-nominated bodies. The Charity Commissioners, however, who could not be charged with being a Radical body, had decided, with regard to the great mass of endowed schools in town and country, to place representatives of the local authorities on the Boards of Management. ["Hear, hear!"] Yet, for some extraordinary reason, they were told by hon. Gentlemen opposite that they were to adopt a totally different principle when the education of the poor
    1168
    was concerned. ["Hear, hear!"] He hoped the majority of the House would not adopt the narrow view of the matter which had been taken by the First Lord of the Treasury; he hoped so in the interests of education, in the interest of a more peaceful and reasonable management of the Voluntary Schools, and in the interest of arriving at a settlement of this important question, which would not injure but strengthen the Church Schools. ["Hear, hear!"] The present Archbishop of Canterbury, who was a member, and perhaps the most prominent member of the Schools Inquiry Commission, in 1868 said—and he quoted the words because they lay at the very root of the matter—
    "The real force of the endowed schools must come from the people. Every arrangement which fostered the interest of the people in the schools, which taught the people to look to the schools as their own, and which encouraged them to take a share in the management, would do at least as much service as the wisest advice and the most skilful administration."
    ["Hear, hear!"] Those words were as applicable now to the Voluntary Schools as they were to the middle-class schools when spoken, and he contended that they would never succeed in making the Voluntary Schools in the country districts popular until local representatives of the people were admitted to the Boards of Management. ["Hear, hear!"] By adopting this course, and admitting the parents to a share of responsibility in the well-being of the schools, he repeated that the interests of education and the schools alike would be served and strengthened—["hear, hear"]—and from this point of view he still hoped that the House would assent to the Instruction which had been moved. ["Hear, hear!"]
    MR. CHARLES SEELYopposed the Instruction on the ground that, as the ratepayers contributed no portion of the money that maintained the Voluntary Schools, they had no right to participate in their management. Then it was urged that the people of a locality were entitled to representation on the schools as taxpayers. Now, hon. Members who had any knowledge of the practical working of those schools would probably agree with him in thinking that in many cases the public control already possessed by the Education Department over the schools was greater than it

    1169
    should be in proportion to the amount of money the Department provided for the maintenance of the schools; and for his own part he thought it would be to the advantage of education if, in some respects, the control of the Department was diminished rather than increased. ["Hear, hear!"] Consequently there was public control from the point of view of the general taxpayer. ["Hear, hear!"] Then there was the contention for parental control. He objected here to the use of the word "control," and to the idea, which underlaid it. The right hon. Gentleman who had spoken used the word "representation," for he saw the point of the objection to the word control. Well, if hon. Gentlemen opposite did not want control in this connection why did they put it in the Instruction?
    [Several HON. MEMBERS: The word is not in the Instruction. ["Hear, hear!" and laughter.]
    MR. SEELYlooked at the Instruction, and said he begged hon. Members' pardon. The word, as had been stated, was not in the Instruction. He had been misled by the tone of the speech of the hon. Member who moved it. [Laughter. But though he objected to the idea of control, he should be glad if some means could he devised by which parents in villages and rural districts where there were only Voluntary Schools could more easily obtain access to the managers of the schools—for instance, by which they could go before the managing committee and state any grievance they entertained. ["Hoar, hear!"] After all, the means of simplifying the removal of grievances was not an unimportant consideration. ["Hear, hear!"] One of the greatest grievances in connection with this matter was the position of the Voluntary Schools and of the subscribers to them. There were Voluntary Schools in School Board districts, and there were Voluntary Schools in districts where there were no Board Schools. That in the School Board districts the subscribers to the Voluntary Schools had also to pay fully the School Board rates was a grave injustice. ["Hear, hear!"] Last year the Government, by means of the Agricultural Bating Bill, gave hack to the ratepayers in agricultural districts where there were Board Schools half the school rates, and he thought it would be only fair that an
    1170
    equivalent giant should be made to the Voluntary Schools in districts where there were no Board Schools. ["Hear, hear!"] For those reasons he held that it was the duty of the Government to do what it could to remove the serious grievances under which the subscribers to Voluntary Schools laboured, especially as no one could have watched the Debates on the Bills both of last year and this year without perceiving a desire on the part of hon. Members opposite to hinder the passing of any Measure which might benefit the Voluntary Schools, much as he should like to see some attempt made to give the parents of the children a voice in the management of the school, but realising the great practical difficulty there was in carrying it out by a legal enactment, though it would be easy enough to carry it out voluntarily, he should vote against the Instruction. There was the added reason that hon. Gentlemen opposite would, if the proposal were adopted, use it as a means of accomplishing their avowed object, which was to assimilate the Voluntary system with the School Board system. He should be very glad if any simple way could be devised of carrying out some of the objects sought to be secured by the Instruction, but he thought the questions of immediately assisting the Voluntary Schools and of taking away the grievances under which they and their subscribers suffered were of greater and more pressing importance than the proposal now before the House. He hoped the mothers of England, who were the persons who felt the pinch most, would realise that the reason they had not got put into the Bill a provision giving them the right to put their grievances before the management, was the factious opposition of hon. Gentlemen opposite.
    *MR. ALBERT SPICERsaid they must all sympathise with the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. His heart seemed to be with them, but for Party reasons he did not feel able to vote with them. The First Lord of the Treasury seemed to think that he had disposed of the abstract justice of their contention by the assertion that national funds should be subject to national control, and that local funds should be subject to local control. But it seemed to him there was one great difference in the present Measure. If the

    1171
    First Lord of the Treasury had brought in a Bill which provided that this extra grant to the Voluntary Schools should be at the disposal of the Education Department, which was subject to the control of Parliament, he would have been inclined to agree with the right hon. Gentleman, but he had not done that.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The hon. Gentleman is quite mistaken. The control rests with the Education Department.
    *MR. SPICERsaid that if these associations, on the importance of which the right hon. Gentleman laid so much stress, were likely to promote the efficiency of the schools, they had a very close connection with control, and if the ultimate settlement with regard to the terms of the associations was to be with the Education Department he maintained that the right hon. Gentleman had not been consistent with the principle he had supported. The right hon. Gentleman also said that it would not be likely to promote the efficiency of a school if a minority of Nonconformists were part of the managing body. He would remind the right hon. Gentleman that after all a minority might do a great deal to prevent injustice, in forming public opinion, and the opinion of their colleagues, and in bringing them to see that suggestions made by the minority, which were fair, might reasonably be accepted. As a Nonconformist he should be perfectly satisfied with many of the Voluntary Schools if only there was a minority; if, at any rate, the parents of the children attending them were allowed to elect a certain proportion of the Managing Committee, and if they could once get away from what none of them on either side of the House liked in the present system—the one-man management. He also put in a claim for the justice of this Instruction. There was one sentence in the Schools Inquiry Committee of 1868 to which he should like to refer. They remarked that they hoped for a good deal
    "from an intelligent interest of the people in the cause of education; there might be many failures and mistakes, but the end would be corrections and improvements."
    The experience of the last 25 years in the cause of education had shown how much was done by popular control. A large number of new men and women had been
    1172
    brought into the public service, and the work they had done in the cause of education had been of enormous advantage to the country as a whole. A system that had bad that effect justified in saying that, in the interests of the Voluntary Schools and in the interests of education itself, they could not do a better thing than, in connection with this Bill, to give some measure of representative and popular control to those schools. He did not think they could do a better thing for the nation than to see that the elementary education of the country was the very best they could give. Artificial systems might be all very well, but they did not get over the difficulty. If the future generation were sent into the world with a sound elementary education he ventured to think that England would be able to hold its own in competition with the nations of the world much better than by any artificial system they might be able to devise. They knew what other nations were doing in the matter. He was reading only the other day an observation by a leading Swiss manufacturer, who said,
    "We know in this feeble country nearly the whole of the people will start life burdened with poverty but we are determined that they shall not start life burdened with ignorance also."
    Whether they looked at the matter in the interests of the Voluntary Schools themselves, or from the standpoint of education, he did not believe they could do a greater service than to give to the schools some measure of control. He hoped the day was not far distant when the Scotch system, which acknowledged denominational teaching, but gave popular control, would be the system in this country. [Cheers.] The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, in his closing speech on the Second Reading, referred to that subject, and all he would say as a Free Churchman was that he would heartily welcome that system. After all, Churchmen and Nonconformists had got to live together and to work together; they did not always want to be clawing at each other, and surely if they devoted themselves to the matter in a right spirit it ought not to be incapable of solution that they should find a system, which should be really helpful to the education of the country and the interests of the nation.
    *MR. ALFRED HOPKINSONsaid the Instruction was open to two very serious objections, and apparently to two only. In the first place, it might open the door to a large number of amendments, and possibly might imperil the passage of—not this Bill, for that was absolutely impossible—but the passage of another Rill which had been promised, and in which he, with many of his hon. Friends, took great interest—the Rill in regard to necessitous Board Schools. ["Hear, hear!"] That was an objection of procedure mainly, and it could, of course, be met. If this Bill, which the Government had undertaken to pass in pursuance of election pledges, was obstructed, recourse could be had to the Closure to carry it through its several stages. But another objection arose on the use in the Instruction of the word "adequate." If that word was to have any meaning at all, if might mean that the management of Voluntary Schools was to be handed over to a majority of representatives of parents or local authorities, which, of course, would be unjust. This objection might he met by the omission of the word "adequate," and he suggested to the Government that with this objectionable word removed they might accept the Instruction. ["Hear, hear!"] There was a strong feeling in the country that there ought to be associated with large grants of public money some element of popular representation in the administration. He was anxious that these schools should work well and successfully, with as little friction as possible, and an element of this kind on the management would, he believed, greatly assist that result. He knew a case—it was in what might be called an "obscure village," but it was a typical case. It was a Church School in a village where the majority of the people were Nonconformists. The school was admirably managed without any difficulty, and this was in a great measure due to the fact that the board of management associated with themselves voluntarily a certain number of Nonconformists. ["Hear, hear!"] He knew another case where the Voluntary Schools worked admirably and there was no desire for a School Board because the clergyman associated with himself people
    1174
    fairly representative of other views than his own, and the management was harmoniously conducted. He objected altogether to the idea that a body of Nonconformists would necessarily be a permanent opposition, or that as a matter of practice on all questions the Churchmen would he found on one side and the Nonconformists on the other. It would he far more likely that, supposing there to be such a case as was said to have arisen at Willesden, where the managers dismissed a master because he did not go to a particular church, there a representative element would probably have been successful in enforcing a more reasonable view. He entirely objected to making this representative element the majority on the governing body; that would not he fair, and, whatever system he might prefer, certainly he should insist on Voluntary Schools having fair treatment. Though supporting the Bill, as he did, he was in favour of the main principle of the Instruction, and wished very much, sharing the opinion that prevailed among large masses of people in the country, that the Bill recognised that principle. He could not, however, support the Motion while the word "adequate" remained in it, as it might mean to give absolute control to the representative element. Take that word out, and the principle of the Instruction might be the means of great practical benefit in the effective management of Voluntary Schools, and he should be disposed to vote for the Motion. He would be glad to see the Government treat this matter as one open for Parliamentary discussion and decision. Frequently Members found themselves in the position that where they were strongly in favour of a proposition, their action would be open to misconstruction if they voted against the Government. With perfect agreement with the Government in their general policy, he did on this subsidiary point wish very much that it were left open, or, better still, that the Government would accept the principle of the Instruction. ["Hear, hear!"]
    MR. GEORGE LAMBERTsaid two speeches in favour of the present proposal had been made from the other side of the House by supporters of Voluntary Schools, and, while

    1175
    in one case the hon. Member was prepared to vote in acordance with his opinion, in the other he was not. The hon. Gentleman who said he was misled by the terms of the Instruction must have really been misled by the speech of his own Leader, for the First Lord of the Treasury had read into the proposal the word "control," which really formed no part of it. The Education Department, he said, had control over Voluntary Schools, but in discussion of the Bill of last year the Vice President of the Council said the overburdened Department could not exercise proper control over all the details of management. What right, said the Leader of the House, had the ratepayers to be represented on the management of a Voluntary School because the taxpayer contributed to the maintenance? but what right, he would ask, had the clergyman of a parish to exercise, as in many instances he did, sole and absolute control over the money supplied by the taxpayers. In what country in the world could it be shown that the clergy were the best educationalists? It was admitted that the clergy were not good men of business: would it not, then, be of the greatest advantage to a clergyman to have the assistance of a few business men in his parish? He represented a constituency in which were a very large number of Nonconformists, and they had no representation on the management of schools their taxes did so much to maintain in their midst. The Leader of the House seemed to think that if four-fifths of the population of a parish were Nonconformists, yet there was no grievance.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid he distinctly stated this was one of the inequalities of the existing system.
    MR. LAMBERTsaid then why not bring in a Bill to remove the inequality. ["Hear, hear!"] He did not know how to take that cheer from the right hon. Gentleman. Let him follow the advice of his own supporters. In the constituency of South Molton Nonconformists were compelled to send their children to schools on the management of which they had not the least influence. It would increase the efficiency of Voluntary Schools to have this outside element introduced, he was certain it would in no way injure these schools, and as an educationalist
    1176
    he had no desire whatever to injure the schools. He supported the Instruction in the full belief that to adopt it would increase the efficiency of the schools and would remove that inequality which was admitted to exist. It would be for the benefit of Voluntary Schools that the principle of the Instruction should be embodied in the Bill. Nonconformists had a very great grievance in regard to the appointment of teachers. Over the doors of the Voluntary Schools of the country might be written the words, "No Nonconformist need apply here for the position of teacher." He claimed for Nonconformists the right to participate in the teaching work, and a share in the amount the State granted for teaching purposes. He could not but think that the Bill had less the interests of education in view than the interests of a proselytising church. If not this, why not accept the principle of proper representation on the management?
    VISCOUNT CRANBORNEobserved that, while he had a good deal of sympathy with what had been said as to the rights of parents, he should vote most heartily against this Instruction. He would submit to the House that a great deal of the discussion was beside the point. This was not a Bill for regulating the management of Voluntary Schools, but it was a Bill of a much, smaller kind. The right hon. Member for Rotherham spoke of it as a great settlement. It was not a settlement at all, as everybody must know. It was a matter very much smaller than that, having nothing whatever to do with the management of the school, the whole object being to pay certain sums of money—[Opposition cheers]—which were to be administered under certain conditions which the representatives of the taxpayer, through the Education Minister, were to lay down, and that money was to be paid to the Voluntary Schools in order that the people of this country who believed in Voluntary Schools should not suffer for that belief. ["Hear, hear!"] It was clear that the local body, who under the control of the Education Department, would have most to say to the distribution of the money would be the associations, and if that was the case surely any representation there should be should be on the boards of association, who would have the management of the money, and

    1177
    not on the management of the schools. Was it seriously proposed that parents should be represented on the boards of associations. It would be perfectly impossible to arrange clauses by which parents themselves should be represented on the associations. He next came to the ratepayer, and he must say that of all the absurd proposals, the one that they should have a representation of the ratepayers without a contribution from them was the most absurd. ["Hear, hear!"] His hon. Friend who had recently spoken from that side of the House had said the Bill was quite certain to pass, but he ventured to say if a proposal was made that there should be direct control by the ratepayer without contribution from the ratepayer the Measure would not pass. ["Hear, hear!"] Under certain conditions he would accept the ratepayers' representation on these associations. Give the Voluntary Schools the share of the rates they were entitled to in all justice and they would willingly accept representation on the boards of the associations. ["Hear!"] But this was only an interim Bill; and dealing with an interim Bill, and waiting for the ultimate settlement which they knew must come. they should resist with all their power the idea, of representation of ratepayers upon the associations when there was no contributions from the ratepayers. ["Hear, hear!"] Let them have representation with taxation but not representation without taxation. If the House once passed this Instruction, a tremendous field for controversy would be opened up. He hoped for that reason, because of the enormous complications which it would involve in the conduct of the Bill, and because it was a Bill, not for the management of schools, but for the distribution of money in the case of Voluntary Schools which required it, that the House would, by a large majority, refuse to accept the Instruction. ["Hear, hear!"]
    MR. LAWSON WALTONobserved that the noble Lord had given three reasons for voting against these Instructions. Those three reasons struck any friend of the public voice in the control of the public education of the country as somewhat strange, both in principle and in the mode in which the noble Lord had conveyed them to the House. His first remark was, that the
    1178
    Bill provided for an increased grant towards the popular education of the country, which was conducted through the machinery of the Voluntary Schools. It was not a Bill, said the noble Lord, for effecting further and better arrangements for the management of these schools. The ground of the objection of the Opposition to the Bill in its present form was, that it was a provision for increasing financial support without provision for further more effective popular representation. The argument which would induce the noble Lord to vote against the Instruction was an argument which would induce Members on the Opposition side to most strongly support it. The second reason the noble Lord had given was, that the money was not to be paid to the schools. It was to find its way to these associations, but the beneficiaries were to receive this money in such driblets as the voluntary associations might choose to dispense funds which passed through their ham's. Surely if the money was to be applied to the schools the necessities of the school were to be considered in the application of the funds. The noble Lord's third argument was, that he wished to retain the right of concession of popular control as the terms of a bargain which he offered. He acknowledged the justice of the concession; he acknowledged that some measure of controlling the government of a school established for popular interests and maintained by popular funds ought to be made.
    VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: No: I said nothing of the kind.
    MR. WALTON: He said, "We will concede that when you give us direct access to the rates, and do not leave us to Imperial grants for educational purposes." There were two arguments in favour of this proposal which had not yet been met". How did this proposal stand as regarded principle? Could there the, on any ground of principle, an objection to the principle that, in the case of a school—although voluntary in its origin and in its feature of primary control—which was popular in its character and operation, which was the only school in the district, and maintained largely by public funds, they should ensure for public opinion some representation in the control of that institution? The answer given them was, that the

    1179
    institution had connected itself with the Church of England as a denominational body. But the noble Lord would be the first to insist that the Church of England, though denominational in its character, was a national institution; that its members were members of that institution because they were citizens of this country, and that every inhabitant of these villages, by the theory of the law and constitution, was a member of the church which had established that school for the purpose of popular education, and had, by virtue of that constructive membership, in relation to his citizenship some title to a voice in the management of that institution. Therefore, on principle, he asked the House to say there was every reason why an institution, national in its character and popular in its operations, should have some provision for popular representation in regard to its control. On the ground of expediency, what answer was there to the argument used by his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dorset? In the interest of expediency, surely the friends of Voluntary Schools should consult public opinion in regard to their management. He knew of no mode by which the suspicion of clerical influence could be more effectively disarmed, or the beneficial influence of the schools could be better secured, that by insuring some measure of popular representation in their management, which would enlist the enthusiasm of the people in whose districts they existed and excite their interest and render the operations of the schools in the future more beneficent in the interests of education and to the advantage of the districts in which they were established. Until they heard some objection to the Instruction on the ground of principle or expediency, they on that side of the House would feel that they were right—notwithstanding the danger to which it was said the passing of the Measure, about which they were not enthusiastic, might be exposed—in supporting the Instruction and asking the House to accept it. ["Hear, hear!"]
    *SIR ALBERT ROLLITsaid, as a strong supporter of the Bill on grounds both of private faith and educational economy, he desired to say a few words, not controversially, and least of all of theological controversy, but from the standpoint of education and in
    1180
    the real interests of the Voluntary Schools. The principle of the Instruction seemed to commend itself to almost all parts of the House, and the objections raised related chiefly to questions of procedure and to verbal modifications. In supporting the Instruction he gave utterance to what he believed to be the feeling of the majority of his constituents—lay and clerical. He felt it. his duty to support the principle of the Instruction last Session, and on the previous stage of the Bill, and he could not help reminding hon. Friends who objected to the Instruction that the underlying principles of the Bill of last Session, whatever else might be said of it, were of a distinctly representative character. The local authorities were made educational authorities, and, though there was to be the supervision of a central authority, the Bill was of a distinctly local representative character. The corollary of increased grants was security for good and efficient management, and this would be secured by some representation of the parents. The guidance of experience justified the adoption of the Instruction. There were many schools already in which there was representation of parents. There were many Churchmen, including dignitaries of the Church, who strongly advocated the cause of representation, and he believed that, among the most efficient schools were those in which the representative principle was brought to bear in keeping them in line with the general course of education, and modifying and keeping in check extremes which might injure denominational education. He believed that the proposal contained in the Instruction would be in the interests of education and Voluntary Schools. One great difficulty in elementary education at the present time was the want of interest of parents in the teaching and instruction of their children. He believed, judging from opportunities of observation he had had at prize-givings and the like, that the more parents were brought into direct touch with the education of the children the more would the efficiency of that education be increased, and the educational progress of the school would be greater if it were aided by sympathy in the home. He believed that the proposal contained in the Instruction would even

    1181
    be an advantage to each denomination. One of the desires of many denominations was to attach new members to themselves; and interest in the schools of the denomination, by attracting parents, would attach them in many eases to the denominations themselves. So, from a religious aspect, he thought the proposal would prove beneficial. What was the chief objection urged by his hon. Friend the Member for Rochester and others to the practical representation of parents? It was that this was a grant in aid from a central authority, and that the assistance was not to come from the rates. But the Bill proposed to exempt Voluntary Schools from rates. This deficiency in the rates would have to he made up by the ratepayers, who therefore would have some claim to representation. Although the amount of the deficiency in the rates might be comparatively small, it was not correct therefore to say there would be no contribution whatever from the ratepayers. Though made in the form he had indicated, the contribution carried with it some claim for representation, and as the local authority would lose by the exemption, that body had also some similar claim, and grants in aid to local authorities, though made by the State, had to be administered by the representatives of the ratepayers. He had risen to express what he believed were the views of his constituency, and certainly of the great majority of laymen there. The clergy of the Rural Deanery of Islington, at a meeting at which the subject was discussed, had also, he was informed, by a majority passed a resolution that sonic representation of parents was desirable in the interests of education and the Voluntary Schools. He advocated what he believed to be right in principle. Re-presentation of parents and parishioners would keep the schools in line with the growth of education and public opinion, and enable them to carry on their work in stimulating competition with the Board Schools. He believed in the maintenance of both Board and Voluntary Schools, the maintenance of the latter of which would prevent a possible reaction against all education owing to its great cost, in which respect the Bill would help Loudon much less than Lancashire, which he regarded as most unjust; and because
    1182
    he did not think the instruction aimed adversely at Voluntary Schools, but would carry out a right principle with advantage to those schools, he should give it his hearty support.
    *MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS (Notts,)said that the Member who had just spoken had displayed the liberality and independence which usually characterised his speeches, but he had made one slight mistake. He had said that there seemed to be general acquiescence in the principle involved in the Instruction, but there had been a signal exception in the speech of the Leader of the House, who had distinctly denied the right asserted by the Instruction. There had been a great contrast between the speeches of the hon. Members for Crick-lade and Lincoln. Both expressed sympathy with the object of the Instruction, but the latter had a greater desire to befriend the subscribers, who could take care of themselves, than the parents, who were poor and feeble. The Leader of the House had given them, what he called, the. whole philosophy of the matter, but, if so, it was but a narrow and superficial philosophy. The Instruction was based on the broad principle of expediency. This was not, as had been stated, a mere question of £ s. d., for it was one of those cases in which it could not be said that "money answereth all things." Something more was wanted to insure efficient popular education—viz., popular interest. They needed the assistance of parents, who did not at present realise their responsibility in regard to the education of their children. It had been contended that the control of the Education Department was sufficient, but the Department was too far off; it had too little local knowledge and had no popular sympathy. They heard last Session much of the rights of parents in regard to religious teaching; but the champions of those rights were now silent. If they had local representation less would be heard of the pranks of clerics in Voluntary Schools—men like the Vicar of Willesden, for instance. At present, when such clergymen were complained of in that House, they were told that the Department had no authority, and minded its own business; but, with a local representative body, there would be some one whose business it was to prevent such improprieties. If the schools were really

    1183
    the schools of the people, they could correct whatever might be amiss in them: while, if the schools prospered, they would have a legitimate pride in their success. He was sorry that a large number of the parents of children in elementary schools were lacking in a sense of responsibility, and he held that the parents of the children could do far more than they had yet done to assist the school managers and the School Boards to give efficient education. If the people of a locality could be made to feel that the schools were not the parson's schools but their schools, then, when anything went amiss, they would feel themselves responsible and seek to apply the remedy, while if the schools were efficient and prosperous they would feel that they had a share in the credit.
    MR. D. F. GODDARDsaid the question was not so much to whom was this money to be paid, but whose money was it that was going to be paid. As the money would come from the taxes of the people, the people had a right to some representation on these schools. The principle of representative management was, in a sense, in the Bill, but it was there in its most objectionable form. These associations of schools were to be the means of distributing the money, and would have some kind of control over its distribution, but they could not in any sense, constitutionally or popularly, be called representative associations. The Bill set up an authority as representative which was only a sectarian authority, and they strongly objected to that as a retrograde step. The Act of 1870 recognised elementary schools of all sorts, but this Bill recognised denominational bodies as representative, and committed large sums of money to them. These bodies would become, in a sense, competitive with the elected School Boards, and so would put the School Boards to a disadvantage. So far as they could gather, the only kind of representation in the Bill was that these schools were to be subject to the approval or disapproval of the Department; but the Board Schools had to satisfy the public as well. The Bill was an anti-School Board Bill, it would injure the School Board system, and displayed an anti-local control spirit. The Estimates which came to hand that morning proposed to increase the 163 schools which received a special grant under the Act of 1870 to 400, and
    1184
    the grant was to be raised from £26,400 to £41,600. Was this the relief which was to balance the £620,000? [Cries of 'Order!"]
    *MR. SPEAKERsaid the question before the House was whether adequate representation should be given, and these figures did not refer to that question.
    MR. GODDARDasked why they should not make a just and fair attempt to consult the wishes of all the parents. That could only be done by electing representatives of the parents. These schools were supported and kept in existence by public assistance. They recognised the principle of representation in endowed schools, although in that case there was not nearly so much justification for it as in the case of the elementary schools. The people were taxed for these purposes, and where there was taxation there should be representation. He would like to make one quotation from a speech of Dr. Temple's on the Report of the Royal Commission of 1888. He said:—
    "There is no security for efficiency without interested local supervision—['hear, hear']—there is no security for economy without the vigilance of those who hear the substantial burden of the cost."
    That was all that they asked for.
    *MR. ERNEST GRAYsaid he had very much sympathy with the Instruction before the House, and could not bring himself, knowing what he did of the Voluntary Schools of the country, to vote against it. Without any doubt many of our Voluntary Schools were as ably managed as the very best Board Schools in the country, and those were the schools where the management was of a wide and democratic character. [Opposition cheers.] Whether under trust deeds or in violation of them the managers had associated with themselves representatives of all classes of the community. Those were the schools which were upholding the credit of the Voluntary system. There were others, unhappily, where the management was very restricted in character, and others where the management was not. only restricted but bad. No true friend of the Voluntary system would deny the existence of these blots on the system, or evade the opportunity of improving the bad schools. He looked upon this proposal as something more than a mere

    1185
    grant of money to the schools, and the setting up of a machinery to distribute that grant; he regarded it as an attempt to secure the efficiency of the Voluntary Schools—["hoar, hear!"]—and he was convinced that nothing would more quickly secure the efficiency of the schools than their adequate management. No reference had been made to the fact that in many districts the single manager of the Voluntary School would gladly associate with himself others in the district. It must not be imagined that the restricted management was due to the action of the vicar or the local rector: it was in many cases in spite of the efforts made by the vicar. The fact was that those in the district, who knew that the burden of debt hung around the Voluntary School, would not associate themselves with the work of the school lest a part of the liability for the debt should rest upon them. This Bill would do something to remove that difficulty, and make it possible in such districts for persons to associate themselves with the managers as provided by the trust deeds. But there were schools in other districts—and he regretted to have to say it—of which the manager under the trust deed was but one person. There were cases in which the trust deed distinctly laid down that the local vicar was the sole manager of the school, and in which the vicar would not take any step to associate others with himself in the management of the school. [Opposition cheers.] What was happening in many parts of the country? What had happened recently? A liberal-minded vicar, a man desirous of doing the best for his school and for the children under his care, in spite of the trust deed, associated with himself many of the parents and other ratepayers in the district in the conduct of the school; but a new man had come into the district, he had sheltered himself behind the trust deed, turned his co-managers adrift, and insisted upon managing the school according to his own sweet will. [Opposition cheers.] He regretted that, while the Government were making efforts in this Bill to secure the efficiency of the Voluntary Schools, they would not take one of the very first steps essential to that efficiency—[Opposition cheers]—and make some provision for bringing up the bad Voluntary Schools to the level of the best Voluntary School.
    1186
    He admitted the difficulty in the way of incorporating clauses in the Bill by which this could be carried out. He was not sure that the terms of the Instruction were as satisfactory as personally he would wish. The object of the Instruction might be a good one, but there was more than a suspicion that the Instruction amounted to an attempt to establish a system of control over the Voluntary Schools that he, for one, was nor desirous of bringing about. [Ministerial cheers.] He would not support any Amendment which would destroy the denominational character of the Voluntary Schools. ["Hear, hear!"] He was intensely desirous, in the best interests of the Voluntary Schools themselves, that the management should be as wide as possible; yet he held that the final control should rest in accord with the terms of the founder of the institution. The Instruction might be innocent enough if that was the object it sought to carry out, and the avoidance of such a word as "adequate" would have removed misconception. Unfortunately, it was not now possible to amend the Instruction, but he would suggest a method by which it seemed to him they might escape from the difficulties presented by the Instruction, and also give effect to what he believed to be the view of hon. Members on both sides of the House—namely, that the management of these schools should be made such that it would withstand all public criticism. ["Hear, hear!"] There was an Amendment on the Paper in the name of the hon. Member for the Barnstaple Division (Sir Cameron Gull), by which it was suggested that the Education Department should have, amongst other things set forth in the Bill, the power of insisting on the management being in accord with the requirements of the Education Department. It would not be possible to proceed hurriedly with Departmental schemes for bringing the management into line, but it would be possible to give the Education Department power to withhold these new grants in all cases where the management was unsatisfactory. That would in itself tempt the managers of the schools whose trust deeds provided for the management by one man, to bring up their trust deeds to the Charity Commissioners and obtain a provision for management by half-a-dozen or more persons—to popularise the

    1187
    management of the schools, and thus give effect to the wishes of all sections of the community, Nonconformists and Churchmen alike. That could he accomplished by amendments in Committee, and he should say that, if a representative of the Government could give them an assurance that in Committee some effort of that sort would be made, it would be an advantage rather than a disadvantage to withdraw the Instruction. To go on with the Instruction would have this result—many men, desirous of avoiding any suspicion of opposing the Bill, would vote against the Instruction. He would not risk that course, because he believed that the Instruction could be defended, if not in actual phraseology, certainly in the object it sought to achieve, [Opposition cheers.] He could not bring himself to vote against it, but he believed many would, and the result would be a decision recorded by this House against the principle embodied in this Instruction, and to have such a decision recorded would be fatal to the future efforts in this direction. [Cheers.] That was his opinion. It was not a question of what could be accomplished or what could not be accomplished under the Bill. He was not contending that the scope of the Bill should be widened indefinitely, but he asserted that the question of management was part and parcel of the Bill as it stood. ["Hear, hear!"] The Bill was to make for the efficiency of the schools, and without some reform in the management of the worst of the Voluntary Schools that efficiency could not be secured, no matter what they did either by increased grant or increased powers of the Education Department. He felt very strongly indeed that the position of the Voluntary Schools was not such as was frequently represented by those who sympathised with the Board system alone, and who detested the Voluntary system; it was not as bad as they would make it out. But it was not as good as many on the Government side of the House would have them to believe, largely because they had a strong dislike for the Board School system. There were good Voluntary Schools and bad Voluntary Schools, and he stood there as one who was intensely desirous of maintaining the Voluntary Schools as an integral part of the national system of education in this country. He felt, however, that that
    1188
    could not be brought about unless the bad schools were brought up to the level of the very best. Improvement in the management would accomplish that, and he therefore hoped the principle, if not the phraseology, of the Instruction would be accepted by the House. [Cheers.]
    *MR. J. W. LOGANsupported most heartily the Instruction before the House, and did so because, although he was quite prepared to grant, under proper conditions, as much money for the purpose of education as any Government would propose to grant, he was strongly opposed to the granting of a single penny unless the local authorities or the parents had some voice in the control of the expenditure of the money. The noble Lord the Member for Rochester was under the impression that the adoption of the Instruction would delay the passing of the Bill. Personally he thought that the acceptance of the Instruction, even in a modified form, would do more to facilitate the passing of the Bill than anything else the Government could do. It was little less than monstrous that the taxpayers of the country, who found five-sixths of the money for the so-called Voluntary Schools, should not have any voice in the management of those schools, while those who found the one-fifth of the money should have the entire management and control of the schools. But he, as the representative of a large number of working men, did not look upon this question merely from the pounds, shillings and pence point of view. If by the operation of this Bill the Government deprived the working classes of the opportunity of securing the very best education for their children, they did the children a grievous harm and did an irreparable injury to the entire community. He claimed, not only in the interests of the parents and children, but of the nation, the undoubted right of every parent to have a voice in the selection of the education which was to be imparted to his children. The question of parental control was peculiarly a poor man's question, because the well-to-do people could send their children to what school they chose. It was a disgrace to us as a nation that there were to-day 8,000 villages in England in which there was only one school, and that a school dominated, in most cases, by one

    1189
    man, the Church parson, and that to that school the Nonconformist parent was compelled to send his child whether he liked it or not. Working men were beginning to realise what education meant. They were beginning to realise that without education their children must grow up hewers of wood and drawers of water, and, recognising the hard struggle they themselves had had, they were anxious to better the lot of their children if they could. During the last 20 years he had had a splendid object-lesson as to the absolute necessity of some control over the Voluntary Schools. In the little village in which he lived there was a Voluntary School, a school which was endowed by some pious man in the past. The endowment, he doubtless thought, would be of benefit to the community, but. instead of that, what had been the result? He knew of more than one boy who to-day was at the tail of the plough earning a miserable pittance, simply and solely because the school at which he was educated was dominated, and managed and controlled by a self-elected body. Whereas had that school been in years gone by what it was now—owing to a change made during the lifetime of the late Liberal Government—those boys would have been able, thanks to a better education, to earn a decent living. He appealed for popular control over those schools because he knew there was a strong feeling amongst the clerical managers that any kind of education would do for the poor man's child. He would quote the Colonial Secretary in support of that view. He quoted the right hon. Gentleman, not for any Party purpose, but because he expressed that view much better than it could be done by 999 out of every 1,000. The right hon. Gentleman said:—
    "The idea gains currency that a cheap education is good enough for the poor man's child, and that anything better must be reserved for his superiors. To such a cruel and insolent doctrine I object. I do not admit that education ought to be watered down and reduced and limited to the level of the poor, It is, believe me, the interest of the nation, as well as the interest of the parents and of the children, that each child, according to its natural gifts and aptitudes, should have the opportunities of the best cultivation, and that all should he stimulated and encouraged to develop the faculties with which God has gifted them, to their highest extent."
    1190
    It was because he wished to see developed the natural gifts and aptitudes with which God had gifted so many of our children that be desired to see the parents of the children having some control over the schools. He could call the Vice President of the Council as a witness that that control was necessary. The right hon. Gentleman said:—
    "The labourer's children are turned out of school to scare crows at 11 years old, and often by the connivance of the School Attendance Committee officers, who are under the thumb of the farmers, at a much earlier age."
    It was because he knew that the parents did not wish to have their children turned out to scare crows at 11 years of age that he wished to give the parents this control over the schools. And who refused the parents this control? It was the Church of England, which claimed to be the Church of the people, and which declared that love for it was deep-rooted in the hearts of the English people. Then, if the Church believed that love for it was deep-rooted in the hearts of the people, why did it refuse to the people this voice in the control of education? For his view, that those who found the money should have some control over the expenditure, he had the Colonial Secretary on his side, for the right hon. Gentleman said, a few years ago:—
    "The existence of sectarian schools supported by State grants, is no doubt a very serious question in itself, and one which some day or other ought to receive consideration. Whenever the time comes for its discussion I for one shall not hesitate to express my opinion that contributions of Government money, whether great or small, ought in all cases to be accompanied by some form of representative control. To my mind the spectacle of a so-called National School turned into a private preserve by clerical managers and used for exclusive purposes of politics or religion, is one which the law ought not to tolerate."
    He supported the Resolution, not in the interest of any Party or in the interest of any sect, but for the sake of the children and even for the sake of the English nation as a whole, for he believed that, unless the people were provided with a thorough and practical system of primary education, many hon. Members of the House would live to see the commercial supremacy of England shaken.
    On the return of Mr. SPEAKER, after the usual interval,
    COLONEL MILWARDsaid that he did not like to give a silent vote on this Instruction, because, on the Second Heading of the Bill, he spoke very strongly in favour of a Measure of representative management. But he could not resist the arguments of the First Lord in opposition to this Instruction. The right hon. Gentleman pointed out that the present Bill was not a final Measure; and it was evident that the Bill dealt with but a few of the educational questions which required attention. He hoped that the question of representative management would soon be brought up, but if it were introduced into the present Bill it would occupy the attention of the House for a least a week. [Opposition cries of "No!"] At present there were 40 pages of Amendments to a Bill which of itself only occupied two pages. [Cheers.] He remembered that last year, when a similar Bill was before that House, an Amendment that had been brought forward was strongly resisted by the Government on the ground that if they were to accept it they would be compelled to accept an enormous number of consequential amendments. The same objection applied to this Instruction. Therefore, although he approved of the principle of the Instruction, he intended to loyally follow his leaders. They had a long series of discussions before them, which would probably take some weeks to get through, and which would no doubt try their patience and even their tempers, and unless they loyally supported the Government it was impossible to say when they would reach the end of their labours. For his own part, he believed that the question of the representative management of these schools was ripe for decision, and in a vast number of the schools representative management had been carried out with great success. The trustee managers of the schools thought too lightly of their office, and generally looked to the clergyman of the parish for guidance. He thought that hon. Members opposite attached too much importance to parental management. He attached importance to the representative management of persons who were not necessarily connected with the Church.
    1192
    He believed that this question of representative management would come to the front before very long. The question before them, however, was what would happen to this Bill if this Instruction were carried? Why, it would wreck it beyond all doubt. ["Hear, hear!"] and ironical cheers and laughter.,] He was aware that there were many hon. Gentlemen opposite who wished well to the Voluntary Schools, but there were others who, on the contrary, were bitterly opposed to its principle, and who supported this particular Instruction with the object of defeating the Measure. What would the Government do if this Instruction were carried? Why, they would either withdraw the Bill or they would resign. ["Hear, hear!" and Opposition cries of "Oh!" and laughter.] That was the natural inference from what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury. For his own part he might say that he intended to vote against the Instruction, because he was not willing to risk the loss of the Bill. ["Hear, hear!"]
    MR. J. M. PAULTONsaid that the remarks of the hon. and gallant Gentleman who had just sat down would tend to show that hon. Members on the Government side of the House were not in the least afraid of popular representation in the management of these schools.
    COLONEL MIL WARD: We are not.
    MR. PAULTONsaid that the mode in which the hon. and gallant Gentleman intended to show' his approval of popular representation was by voting against this Instruction. The noble Lord opposite had said, "Do not let us have representation without taxation," but that was the standpoint of the Liberal Party also. They were to have taxation under this Bill, but they were not to have representation on the management of the schools. Hon. Members opposite alleged as their reason for voting against this Instruction, that, were they to accept it they would open the door for so much discussion that it would be impossible to pass the Bill through the House within the limits of an ordinary Session. What a confession of weakness on the part of the Government supporters that was. It was not from the Opposition side of the House that this issue had been raised. The Members of the Opposition were willing to leave things as they were or

    1193
    to accept equal treatment for the Board Schools. Although they had always contended that some form of popular representation on the management of the Voluntary Schools would largely add to their efficiency, and to conciliatory action which they desired to see adopted, especially in rural districts, they would not have raised the point had matters been allowed to remain as they were. The Government, however, had chosen to set up one class of schools against the other. The First Lord of the Treasury and the noble Lord had contended that, inasmuch as under the present system of free education the parents contributed nothing' to the grant in aid, they had no right to representation on the management of these schools. But how about the case of schools in which fees were paid by the parents? Could it be said that in such a case the parents were not interested in the management of the schools? In his own constituency, as against 720 children attending free schools. 1,231 attended schools in which fees were paid. Surely, in that case, it could not be said that the parents did not contribute to the cost of education. He contended that under the provisions of this Bill parents would contribute to this grant as taxpayers. When the noble Lord said that ratepayers would not contribute to this grant he forgot that ratepayers were also taxpayers, and that, therefore, they ought to have a voice in the management of the schools. Whether it were the local authority or the parents who received a measure of control in this matter, he cared very little, though he would prefer that it should be the local authority, because, as had been pointed out by his hon. Friend, the Member for Rotherham, parental representation would probably involve an additional election. In an Amendment which he had put down on the Paper, and which he would not have the opportunity of moving if this Instruction was defeated, he proposed that two representatives should be appointed by the Parish Council to represent the popular element upon the management of Voluntary Schools. There was no desire in this Instruction or in any Amendment that might be put down in consequence of it. to kill the principle of denominationalism. ["Hear, hear!"] His reason for advocating such a plan as this was that, as a rule, in most districts, there was a fanatical
    1194
    clergyman who was determined to carry through his will in opposition to the opinions of his other parishioners; and the smallest measure of the popular element that was introduced would do a great deal to remove friction of that sort. ["Hear, hear!"] Beyond that, however, there was the broad principle for which they contended, and they held that it was a confession of weakness on the part of the Government that they would not admit that this was a subject they could afford to discuss in this Bill. ["Hear, hear!"] Whatever was the result on this instruction, the discussion would do an enormous amount of good, for it would show the country that the Government was not willing to subject their proposals to the light of discussion in the House. ["Hear, hear!"] That remark was cheered Prom the other side of the House. It was a proof of what he said, for hon. Gentlemen opposite knew that discussion killed the Bill of last year. ["Hear, hear."] For the reasons he had stated he should support the Instruction.
    MR. G. C. T. BALTLEYthought that nobody would accuse him of not being heartily in sympathy with denominational schools, as he preferred to call them. He should strongly oppose anything that would tend to the control of these schools by any representative body, for he felt that if they were subjected to the control, of an elective body, the object of their existence might be rendered impossible by the introduction into the management of a majority not in sympathy with it. He for one was in no way afraid of some sort of representation in the management of those schools. ["Hear, hear!"] There was no doubt that the management of any body by one despot was a source of danger to the institution he managed. [Opposition cheers.] If the clergyman of a district was a good all-round man, whatever representation in reason was put in the management of the schools, he would still practically rule. If, on the other hand, he was not a wise man, many of his mistakes would be avoided. ["' Hear, hear!"] He believed, therefore, that it would really be for the benefit of denominational schools if a limited representation were put on the management. ["Hear, hear!"] He could not see any danger in it. To his mind, the larger the interest taken in the schools in any district the more likely

    1195
    those schools were to be well managed, and for the Church of England to say it was afraid of having representative managers seemed to him a confession of weakness. [Opposition cheers.] The greatest benefit sometimes accrued to an institution by introducing an opponent into its management. They had only to look to Scotland to find this. There, there was a very strong religious feeling, and people were, perhaps, somewhat bigoted; still, one denomination worked harmoniously with another, and although the Roman Catholic schools were not numerous many of them were worked under a general board, and no difficulties had arisen. ["Hear, hear!"] It must, however, be clearly indicated that there must not be such a representation as would swamp the denominational element. That would be most unfair, and he was sure it would be possible to frame a scheme by which that would be prevented. They were not now discussing the details of a plan—[Opposition cheers]—they were simply considering whether they should or should not in Committee try to frame a scheme by which a limited representation could be established. The Government had a very large majority, and they could stop any sort of representation which would injure the characteristics of a school, and he, for one, should certainly vote against anything that would tend to that, because in his view denominational teaching was the backbone of education. The Instruction seemed to him to be in no sense opposed to the spirit of denominational education. On the contrary, in his judgment, it would tend very largely to do away with some of those causes of complaint and matters of irritation which arose sometimes. ["Hear, hear!"] On his side of the House, with the exception of one or two Members, notably, the noble Lord the Member for Rochester, nearly every Member had said he was strongly in favour of some sort of representation, but gave other reasons for voting against the Instruction. It was argued that this Instruction would open the door to a certain number of Amendments, and having been a Member of the House for a number of years, he knew that that was a practical objection; but when they came to consider the great scheme of renewing the power of Voluntary Schools and giving them large financial assistance he did not think it was at all desirable
    1196
    that a Government, with so large a majority, should hesitate to do what was right simply because of that difficulty. ["Hear, hear!"] Some hon. Members had expressed the fear that the adoption of the Instruction would lead to the loss of the Bill. That was out of the question. In fact, he believed that the Bill would pass all the more easily if, by granting this principle of representation, they removed a grievance that rankled in the bosoms of many persons. He should himself prefer to delete the word "adequate" from the Instruction, but it was not a point of very great importance, and Members on his side of the House could take the word as meaning adequate in their sense. He thought that one representative member out of four or five members of the Board would fully meet the necessities of the case. The change would be extremely popular, and would be likely to strengthen the Church of England. He regretted, therefore, that the Government would not consent to this Instruction, for which be should himself certainty vote. [Opposition cheers.]
    MR. CHARLES MORLEY (Brecknock)said that public management ought always to accompany the expenditure of public money. The Instruction suggested two alternative courses—the representation of local authorities or the representation of the parents. He much preferred the former, because he could not subscribe to the claims that had been put forward on behalf of the parents. If the parents in some cases paid fees they need not do so. The payment was optional, and therefore did not constitute a claim to representation. If education had been made compulsory solely in the interests of the children, it would not be unreasonable to give the parents control under that education; but they knew that when the Liberal Party advocated Free Education they did so mainly on the ground that education had been made compulsory, not only in the interests of the children, but also very largely for the benefit of the State, and the argument was that it was not unreasonable to ask the State to pay that which was for its own benefit. The First Lord of the Treasury had said that the Voluntary School buildings had been paid for by the generous contributions of Churchmen in the past, whose object it was to maintain the distinctive

    1197
    teaching of their Church. That he thought was open to qualification. It was quite possible to believe that these generous Churchmen were animated, not only by a desire to promote the teaching of their Church, but also by a desire to promote the efficiency of our national system of education. Then, when the first Government grant of £20,000 was made to the British and Foreign School Society and the National School Society it was distinctly stated that the money was not to be spent on the education of the children, but in school buildings. Therefore, these building's had not been erected exclusively by generous Churchmen. A net inconsiderable portion of them had been erected at the cost of the nation. It was strange that the members of the richest Church in the world were unable or unwilling to support their own schools. There had been in the past, and there were no doubt now, very generous supporters of Church Schools, but the position in which these schools found themselves to-day was largely due to the fact that the generosity and liberality of the few could not compensate for the indifference and apathy of the many. Three-fourths or four-fifths of the cost of the maintenance of these schools the public contributed, and yet the public had no control over them. That was not a just arrangement, and he should therefore vote for an Instruction which sought to place these public elementary schools, which were so largely supported out of public money, under some local control.
    COLONEL SANDYSthought that the Instruction was one deserving support, and he regretted That the Government would not embody its principle in the Bill. [Opposition cheers.] The Government were asking them to vote the taxes of the people for the education of the rising generation and at the same time refused to grant to the taxpayers the right of representation in consideration of the money so voted. In the circumstances he must go into the Lobby with the Mover of the Instruction. [Opposition cheers.] He regretted greatly having to do so, but it was with him a question of supporting a principle. It was one of the constitutional maxims of this country that representation and taxation should go together; we had decided
    1198
    that our institutions should be representative, and he did not see why that principle should not be applied to the education of the country. It was his fixed impression that a clerical despot was the least suitable of men to exercise absolute control over a school or other institution. [Opposition cheers.] He was very glad that the word "adequate" had been allowed to remain in the Instruction, because if there was to be representation it ought to be sufficient and not illusory. There were about 22,000 clergy of the Church of England, and of these between 6,000 and 7,000 were known to be members of clerical secret societies. [Cries of "No!" and Opposition cheers.] He could give the names if necessary, and in the circumstances he certainly held public control to be necessary.
    MR. T. P. WHITTAKERcongratulated the two last speakers upon the Ministerial side of the House upon the fact that they were going to Vote in favour of the Instruction of which they approved. Other Gentlemen opposite had admitted that some form of popular representation would be just and reasonable, and even necessary; and had these proceeded to hunt about for excuses for not voting for this proposal? They had defended the principle, and then condemned the method of carrying it out. It was the old Tory cry of "not thus and not now." Why did not hon. Gentlemen who agreed with this principle, but disagreed with the method, draft an Instruction themselves? A good deal had been said about the word "adequate," and there had been an attempt to read into the word a meaning that it. did not bear. 'Adequate" did not necessarily mean a majority. It was for the House to decide what amount of representation would be adequate, and as hon. Members opposite were in a large majority they could determine themselves what would be a due representation. All that the supporters of the Instruction urged was, that the representation should be adequate to insure religious liberty and an efficient system of education in the Voluntary Schools; and he thought that a reasonable minority of representation would be sufficient to secure that. They would make a great mistake if they applied the phrase, "taxation and

    1199
    representation." too literally and individually, because they did not act upon the principle in this country. The elections of Members of Parliament, for example, were by persons who were never tested as to whether they paid taxation or not. These electors voted because they were ratepayers, and therefore it was clear that they did not recognise, in this case, the principle of representation and taxation with the strictness which hon. Members suggested should be applied. The reason for desiring local representation was, that the parents were compelled to send their children to those denominational schools. In his own constituency Nonconformist children who were demanding free education were being forced into Roman Catholic schools; and this was a serious grievance. He therefore thought that this was an additional reason for asking that the parents and the ratepayers should have some voice in the management of those schools. The question of local control was a village and small town question. Where there were School Boards the parents had a choice for their children; but where there were no Board Schools ought the parents to be compelled to accept the minimum of education that would satisfy the Department? He thought not. The parents and the inhabitants were entitled to claim that there should be a thoroughly efficient system of education, and the only way was to give the people in the locality a voice in the control of the schools. In thousands of parishes there were only the denominational schools at which the children could attend, but if local representation on the management were allowed this would modify the intolerance which existed with regard to those schools. He did not suggest that there should be a controlling voice in the election of the teacher, but a small minority of representation would have an influential voice in it. Their aim would be to prevent inequality and injustice and proselytising, and to secure comfort in the schools for the children of Dissenting parents, as well as to secure a chance for Dissenting pupil teachers in those schools. It was said that the people desired denominational education. If that was the case, then why did the Government fear to give the people a voice in the management of the schools? Representation on
    1200
    these schools would undoubtedly secure efficiency, because the local representatives would vote against teachers having imposed upon them the outside duties of playing organs in the churches; this would mean, therefore, more efficient teachers in those schools. Denominationalists claimed the sole local management because they provided the local funds, and they refused the ratepayers and parents a representation because they did not directly find any funds. But many places to-day found very little money. Some large towns only found 2s., 2s. 3d., and 2s. 6d. per head of the children, and the money so provided was not more than enough to pay the cost and maintenance of the buildings, as they were used for denominational purposes outside the purposes of education. The buildings were used for Sunday schools and for meetings in connection with the church. The Instruction would thus remove one great objection to the denominational system, while it would help the Voluntary Schools to get subscriptions.
    MAJOR RASCHthought that there was a great deal in the views urged by the hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs. ["Hear, hear!"] In the populous districts of Tilbury and the valley of the Thames, which he represented, those views were certainly supported. [Opposition cheers.] He would not attempt to criticise the proposals of the Government; he was not an expert in. these matters, and he was not a fanatical enthusiast on the subject of education. [Laughter.] It had been said that Members on the Ministerial Benches were casting about how to vote with the Government. That was not a difficulty which appalled him at all. He should not follow the hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs, because one must draw the line somewhere. [Loud laughter.] But, on the other hand, he had not the slightest intention of voting against him—[Opposition cheers]—because to do so would be in opposition to the convictions of the men he represented and the opinions which he held himself.
    *MR. J. H. YOXALLregretted that the Leader of the House did not make his statement at the end of the Debate instead of at the beginning, because, having regard to the sympathy which had been expressed on his own side in favour of the Amendment,

    1201
    the decision of the Government might have been different. [Ironical cheer by the FIRST LORD of the TREASURY.] He hoped that even now it was not too late for the right hon. Gentleman to change his mind. ["Hear, hear!"] The desire on both sides of the House to have efficient management given to the Voluntary "Schools obtained very widely outside the House as well. For the last four or five years in parish after parish, month after month, there had been held meetings of protest and indignation against what had been called the "unbeneficent despotism of the vicar in charge of the parish schools." The time would come when more than what was asked for now would be required. The wise course would be, instead of thus foolishly bolstering up the Voluntary system in an undemocratic way, to accept the olive branch which was held out to-night. Experience had shown what good representative management had done for the Voluntary Schools, and as to the argument that to admit the Instruction would be to open the door to innumerable Amendments, he submitted that precisely the opposite effect would be produced. The right hon. Gentleman said rate-aid postulates ratepayers' control, and State-aid State control. That was logical and cogent in the domain of argument, but what about the domain of fact? If it was urged that State-aid postulates State control, then they must go on to say that the State control must be as efficient as the ratepayers' control. That was notoriously not the case. The control of the ratepayers extended to the buildings, to the appointment of teachers, to the dismissal of teachers, to the use and finance of the school—it covered the whole ground, and included many things of which the Education Department took, and could take, no cognisance whatever, unless it put one of its agents on the committee of every school in the country. What was asked for could be done without damaging in the least the denominational character of Voluntary Schools.
    MR. BRYNMOR JONESsupported the Instruction, in the first place because in his view the representation of local authorities upon the governing bodies of schools was proved by the experience of all those who had been concerned either in secondary or primary education, to have a highly
    1202
    beneficial effect. He spoke with knowledge and experience, derived not from English counties, but from his acquaintance with education in Wales and Monmouthshire. In the University of Wales, the three colleges, the intermediate schools, and the central board for intermediate education, local authorities had proper and adequate representation, and he did not believe there was a single gentleman in the House who would not say that the whole working of the Welsh system had been greatly assisted by the representation of public authorities on the governing bodies. He could not see why, in regard to Voluntary Schools, the Leader of the House should refuse some representation to the local authorities or the general community on the associations proposed to be created under this Bill.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I did not refuse, but I did refuse to consider it in this Bill.
    MR. BRYNMOR JONESinferred from that interruption that the right hon. Gentleman now, having heard all the speeches, accepted the principle of the Instruction.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: That is exactly what I said six hours ago.
    MR. BRYNMOR JONESasked why, if so, there should be any difficulty in carrying out the principles in the passage of this Bill through the House. He found that by Clause 3 associations of schools were to be constituted in such manner, and in such areas, and with such governing bodies representative of the managers, as were approved by the Education Department. Why could not the right hon. Gentleman, after what he had said, assent to the Instruction moved, and then try to devise some scheme of management by which its terms might be carried out? ["Hear, hear!"] He supported the Instruction because also the Voluntary Schools were, in his judgment, public institutions supported mainly out of the public funds. ["Hear, hear!"] He assented to the proposition that originally the schools were started in the interests of one denomination, and for the sake of argument he would not say that that fact should be ignored, but he still maintained that substantially the Voluntary Schools were public institutions, supported chiefly by public money.

    1203
    ["Hear, hear!"] The subscriptions to the Voluntary Schools were a very small amount compared with the sum received from the Imperial Exchequer. During the last few years the Voluntary Schools in Cardiff had been receiving about £6,550 annually, and if the present Bill were carried they would receive £1,030 a year more from the State; while, on the other hand, the Voluntary subscriptions given by Church people to the schools amounted to about £700 only. ["Hear, hear!"] This had been going on for many years, and he contended that the time had now come, especially when so large an additional grant was to be made, when the schools should be managed, not in the interests of a particular denomination, but in the interests of the community at large. ["Hear, hear!"] The other day he was reading a lecture by a man whose name he was sure the Leader of the House would respect—Professor T. H. Green, of Oxford—and, speaking in a lecture as far back as 1878, he said, referring to this question, that it must never be forgotten that if the grant were to come to the Voluntary Schools from year to year, there must come a time when the interests of the community in the schools would become so great, and the claims of the State on the schools so great, that all private interests would disappear, and when the State might justly and rightly come forward and declare that the schools must henceforth be managed in the interests of the community generally. ["Hear, hear!"] Moreover, even in the interests of the classes directly concerned in the. Voluntary system, it was expedient that some change should be made from the present system of clerical management. Those classes were three in number—the members of the Church, the parents, and the teachers. It was the general opinion that the schools, especially in the rural districts, were too much under clerical control, and Churchmen themselves admitted that it would be to the advantage of the schools and of education if the laity were now admitted to a larger share in the management of the schools. ["Hear, hear!"] As to the case of the parents, his observations on this point would refer more particularly to Wales, on the people of which the existing system bore very unjustly. ["Hear, hear!"] It was well known that Nonconformists largely outnumbered Churchmen
    1204
    in Wales, and that, notwithstanding, there were many places in which the only school was a Voluntary or Church School, managed almost wholly by the local clergyman. Surely hon. Members opposite, who assumed to be so anxious about the consciences of the parents, must perceive how hard in many cases this state of things must bear on the Welsh Nonconformist; and he was confident that if in such cases one or two Nonconformists were permitted to take part in the management of the school it would tend not only to the harmony of the parish but to the efficiency of the school. ["Hear, hear!"] The case of the teachers under the present system was perhaps the hardest of all. They were practically civil servants, and were paid out of the public funds, and yet they were placed entirely at the mercy of those of a particular denomination to whom the school belonged. This was neither fair nor expedient, and ought to be prevented. Hon. Members opposite had practically admitted that, in the interests of education, a case had been made out for some alteration in the management of the Voluntary Schools if this further grant was to be made. The Bill, through the provision relating to the association of schools, gave the Government an easy opportunity of introducing such changes in the management of the schools as the Instruction proposed, and he thought they would act most unwisely in the interests of the schools themselves if they rejected it. He was curious to learn, after the articles he had read, what the Vice President of the Council had to say in this matter. Personally he should be utterly astonished if that right hon. Gentleman did not see his way to follow the hon. Member for Islington in his firm and consistent demand for some representation of the community upon these Voluntary bodies.
    SIR EDWARD CLARKEwho was received with loud cheers, said that, as one supporting this Bill with all his heart and desiring to see it carried, and as one who felt that the Government had done the right thing in the decision they had come to, and that they would have imperilled the Bill by throwing open the discussion to those questions which were raised by the Instruction, he thought

    1205
    it was time to say a few words. [Opposition cheers.] He understood the meaning of those cheers, and would refer to them in a moment. He would say that if the Government had taken a different course, and by accepting this Instruction had enlarged the area of the Bill, had practically added to it a supplementary Bill, or added the opportunities, at all events, for discussing a supplementary Bill—["hear, hear!"]—they would not only have suffered in the time that would have been expended in the discussion of those matters, but would have met with a resolute resistance from a great many of their own supporters. [Cheers and counter cheers.] He understood the meaning of that cheer. It was a repetition, in another form, of the observation made in both of the speeches from the other side they had just listened to with regard to the number of Members on the Ministerial side of the House who had spoken in sympathy with the Instruction, and who had expressed their intention of either voting for it or of not voting at all. The number of those speeches was deceiving hon. Gentlemen opposite, and would produce an absolutely false impression outside unless that impression were corrected. [Cheers and counter cheers.] When a Bill like this, to which a very large majority of the House had pledged itself—the most popular Bill, so far as Members on that side of the House were concerned, that they could be called upon to support in the House—was under discussion, and when certain Members on that side of the House, for different reasons, felt bound to separate themselves from the Government and to refuse to listen to the exhortation and the appeal made by the First Lord of the Treasury, it was necessary for them, for their own position with their constituents, to give some explanation of the vote they were going to give. Hon. Members opposite had had the gratification of listening to a series of speeches that evening from hon. Members on that side of the House when they might have had three or four times as many—[cheers]—from men who felt quite as strongly upon this question, and who thought, as he did, that the Government had taken the right course. [Cheers.] With regard to this Instruction, it was not a matter which he thought needed discussion in detail, because the objection of the Government to it was not founded
    1206
    upon the consideration of the results of any possible legislation that might follow if it were adopted, but was founded upon the necessity of going straight through with this Bill as it was—[loud cheers]—in order to carry out the great object to which they were pledged, and which the whole of their supporters desired them to accomplish. There were two classes of representation suggested by the Instruction. With regard to the representation of the ratepayers on the managing bodies of Voluntary Schools, he saw no excuse for the proposal whatever. ["Hear, hear!"] If a Voluntary School, conducted by those who belonged to the creed in connection with which it was founded, was doing efficient work, was giving good education as tested by the inspectors of the Education Department, it was entitled to be paid a share of this grant, and there was no excuse for desiring to thrust the ratepayers' representatives upon its managing body. ["Hear, hear!"] With regard to the representation of the parents, they heard read out, by one of the hon. Members for Islington, a Resolution which was arrived at by the clergy in the rural deanery of Islington declaring that it was desirable to have a representation of the parents upon the managing bodies. Perhaps in their case it was, and if that were so, let them have it. ["Hear, hear!"] They could have it to-morrow without any interference from the House—[cheers]—and in very many eases throughout the country, especially in the rural districts, the clergyman did associate with himself, to the great advantage of the school—[Opposition cheers]—and to the great relief of his own anxiety and work, managers who assisted him in the conduct of that school, and, in some cases, represented the parents. But that system, good as it had proved in many cases, was not applicable in all. ["Hear, hear!"] Schools in town and country differed very largely in their circumstances, and he was thinking now of great schools in London. There was a school in a parish in which he was greatly interested with some 600 or 800 children. To frame a legislative proposal for enabling the parents of the children to elect representatives on the managing body of that school, for defining what parents should be allowed to vote, what notice of meeting there should be in order that, they should be called together, and

    1207
    whether any decision was to be made as to the length of time a child had been at school in order to enable a parent to vote, and so on—all these matters would be extremely complex as subjects of legislation—["hear, hear!"]—and he was quite satisfied, with regard to the school he was now thinking of, that, after their most elaborate legislation had provided for them a means of selecting the managers for that school, it would be found practically waste paper, considering the sort of locality in which the school was situated and the class of persons from whom these children came. ["Hear, hear!"] If this Instruction had been carried he should have resisted, as far as he possibly could, any insistence upon the ratepayers' representation upon the managing committees of Voluntary Schools, and he was sure that when the House came to frame legislation for enabling parents to elect persons on those committees they would have found it far more complex and far more full of difficulties than had been thought by his hon. Friends who had been talking so lightly of the acceptance of this principle. [Cheers.] But really the point was this. The Instruction endeavoured to fix upon the Government the duty of dealing with a separate portion of the Bill. If the Instruction were adopted he did not know if the Government would consider it their duty to propose provisions on this matter, but somebody would have to propose a series of clauses constituting quite a second part of the Bill, and his hon. Friends who had been so lightly lending themselves to this ingenious attempt to defeat the Bill altogether—["No, no !" and cheers]—would find that they had deprived the Government of a very large portion of Parliamentary time which it was proposed to devote to other very useful purposes after this Bill was disposed of. ["Hear, hear!"] Several Members had talked of the different aspects in which this question might be viewed, and several Members had said, and he assumed it was the popular attitude to take, that they looked at it from an educational point of view. That was, of course, the right way to look at it; that was the way he looked at it. He was convinced that the best service they could do to the cause of education in the country was to pass the Bill as it stood—[cheers]—and so to give to Voluntary
    1208
    Schools that relief which they had long needed and which had been promised by the Unionist Party. [Cheers.] Much had been said about the necessity of making schools efficient, and, of course, everyone desired to make schools efficient; but the repeated demands of the Education Department had been raised to such an extent, and the burden on Voluntary Schools was so great, that they were struggling for existence in many parts of the country. ["Hear, hear!"] What better service could they render to education than to give these schools the help they needed to save them from extinction? That was the service the Government intended. They had introduced a simple Bill, and he was glad they had expressed a resolute determination to stand by that Bill. [Cheers.] He hoped it would be seen to-morrow that his hon. Friends who had spoken in favour of the Instruction had been vindicating themselves before their own constituents—[Opposition cheers]—vindicating themselves before their constituents for a vote which they would not give if they thought it would be effective. [Ministerial cheers.] They expressed the confidence they felt, and he hoped they rightly felt that they would be beaten—[laughter]—by a substantial majority of the House; but he was quite sure there was not one of them who, if he thought his vote would have the effect of determining the Division against the Government, would not rather say he would stand by the Government and save the Bill for the advantage of Voluntary Schools than indulge in the attempt to tack on to the Bill something which would embarrass the Government and might also destroy the Bill itself. [Cheers.]
    MR. LEONARD COURTNEY: My hon. and learned Friend no doubt was quite right in calling attention to the undue proportion that appeared on this side of the House of Members who are ready to support the Instruction, and the Government may be congratulated on finding an able supporter for the line of action upon which they have resolved, although my hon. and learned Friend left me at the end of his speech in doubt as to whether he opposed the Resolution on the ground of inexpediency or on the ground of principle. ["Hear, hear!"] He seemed to

    1209
    dwell most strongly on the inexpediency of adopting the Resolution, but now and again he repeated expressions which seemed to indicate that he opposed it root and branch, and I find that other hon. Members here have formed the same conclusion. Now, my hon. and learned Friend ended his speech with a declaration that he thought many hon. Members were going to support this Instruction who would not do so if they believed it was going to meet with success. ["Hear, hear!"] Now, I am going to support this Resolution—[Opposition cheers]—and I should do so if I thought it would succeed. ["Hear, hear!"] I should do so for this reason—that, in my opinion, it would make the prospects of the Bill as part of the educational organisation of the country better in the future. ["Hear, hear!"] It would relieve it from that partiality which does not at this moment imperil its fortunes, but which will be remembered against it, and which may perhaps lead to its being reconsidered, and perhaps repudiated, by a later Parliament. ["Hear, hear!"] I do not approach this question as an enemy of Voluntary Schools, or, to speak more correctly, of denominational schools; on the contrary, I have been impressed more and more during these discussions of the justice and necessity of affording substantial aid to Voluntary Schools. Facts have been made public during these Debates that have borne this conclusion more strongly into my mind than when the Debate began. If I may explain my own position in respect to this Instruction, I may be pardoned if in order to do so I call attention to two or three facts which were mentioned at another time, and which appear to me to lead to a certain conclusion as to the policy which should be adopted by Parliament with respect to popular education in the country. We heard of a city in the north where there are 12,000 children in Voluntary Schools and 12,000 children in Board Schools, and it was said that the grant of 5s. a head in respect to the children in the Voluntary Schools of that town would be the cause of considerable resentment in the town on the ground of its injustice. ["Hear, hear!"] It came out also that the amount of £30,000 a year was raised in that city in rates for the support of Board Schools. Now half the children go to Voluntary Schools and half the
    1210
    ratepayers—probably in respect to payment and rateability more than half—are in favour of the Voluntary system: yet the conclusion from the facts is this—that for years past £15,000 a year have been drawn from ratepayers who repudiate Board Schools in order to support those schools. Now is that a conclusion which can be maintained in the future? ["Hear, hear!"] Can it be said for a moment that a system under which half the population is taxed to maintain a system of education they repudiate is one that can endure? Is it to be supposed that this will be consonant to feelings of justice, and that it will continue to be tolerated? ["Hear, hear!"] I am certain it will not be, and the answer in the present Bill, as I conceive it, is that this payment of £3,000 a year to Voluntary Schools is but a sort of hush money to cover up injustice suffered by the friends of Voluntary Schools in the past. I, therefore, approach this Bill, and especially this Resolution, with the view that you must do something to correct the injustice which prevails, that something must come in the way of substantial allowance to Voluntary Schools in the future. I believe that the noble Lord the Member for Rochester, who on this one point is in agreement with me, agrees that funds must come from the same source in support of both classes, and justice will be recognised in carrying out this policy. Now, what is the deduction from this illustration? It appears to me that it illustrates the conelusions—first, that support given to Voluntary Schools in the future rests on the fact that the parents of half the children, or of those who are found in these schools, desire the maintenance of these schools. The second deduction is that the community at large cannot exercise that control over these schools which would destroy their essential character without interfering with the justice which requires the allowance to be made to the schools. The control has to satisfy two conditions—first, that it shall not prejudice the essential character of the schools; and, next, that it shall secure the desires and wishes of the parents who send their children to these schools. Let me observe that this apology for our defence of the Bill does not at all apply to those parishes, which abound in the country, where there is a Voluntary School and nothing else. Nobody in a parish of

    1211
    that kind can complain that a ratepayer as a ratepayer is supporting a school of which he does not approve. There is no rate levied in opposition to his wishes, but inasmuch as in the course of circumstances we know that in these country parishes there are found many schools which exist because they do exist, we are justified in respect of these schools in asking for some control, some representation in their management which shall satisfy the local demand, as well as that other representation which is due to the parents from the strength of whose preference alone these schools in other places exist. [Opposition cheers.] Therefore I am entirely in favour of the Instruction, which carries out and which rests upon the very principle of our action, because it justifies it, if it justifies it: at all, on the ground that parents desire the school; and yet the Government shrink from the suggestion that parents should have a voice in the management of the schools. [Cheers.] What are the reasons against the introduction of this kind of element in the management? My right hon. Friend at the head of the Government, who, I understood by an interjection of his a little while ago, was not opposed in principle to the present Instruction—[Opposition cheers]—
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: If my right hon. Friend misrepresents me, I must interrupt him. I distinctly stated in the speech I made six hours ago the main objection the Government had to this Instruction, and it is an insuperable objection, in face of which we shall certainly drop the Rill if the Amendment be carried. [Cheers and counter cheers.] That objection is that the Rill is restricted in its scope, and it would not be legitimate to add a new Rill to it by the Instruction which it is proposed we should carry. [Ministerial cheers.]
    *MR. COURTNEY: I will deal with that main and insuperable objection presently. Rut, meanwhile, is or is not the right hon. Gentleman in favour of the principle of the Instruction? [Opposition cheers.]
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: When the Instruction is embodied in a Bill, and brought before the House for discussion, I will give an opinion upon it. [Ironical Opposition cheers.] Rut, so long as we do not know
    1212
    in which at least of 20 different forms the Instruction is to be embodied, I surely may be absolved from giving an opinion upon any one of them. [Ministerial cheers.]
    *MR. COURTNEY: Then my right hon. Friend will not give us an opinion. [Cheers.] I do not complain of that, but I thought that he did, with some warmth, make an observation just now, when the hon. Member for Swansea was speaking, to the effect that six hours ago he had expressed his concurrence in that principle. [Opposition cheers.]
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: My right hon. Friend cannot have caught what I said.
    *MR. COURTNEY: I understood the right hon. Gentleman to oppose the Instruction, grounding his opposition upon the principle which he borrowed from the phrase of the hon. Member for Cambridge University, that local support requires local control, and Imperial support requires Imperial control. [Cheers.] That appears to have captured a great many minds, but it is one of those catch phrases which turn upon a play of words, and if you examine them narrowly there is little or nothing in them. [Cheers.] Surely the principle and nature of the control or management which we are going to introduce into the system of schools, whether maintained out of local or Imperial taxation, must depend upon an examination of the expediency or inexpediency in itself of the control which we are going to introduce. You cannot manage elementary schools all over the country from Whitehall, even if you desire it. That was admitted last year, and it remains true now. ["' Hear, hear!"] You must, if you want efficient control, get the assistance of local control as well as central. ["Hear, hear!"] It is said there are other difficulties. There is the difficulty that the Instruction goes too far. There has been talk of "adequate" re-presentation, and although it is suggested that "adequate" might be dropped, you, Sir, observed that that cannot be done because that is an alteration of the Instruction without notice. Of course, that is a perfectly true principle. An Instruction cannot be moved without notice, and an alteration which added to its force could not be moved. Rut an alteration which diminished its force,

    1213
    narrowed its scope, restricted its application, can, I believe, be moved at any time. [Cheers.] The omission of the word "adequate," I believe, might be held to enlarge the scope, and would clearly leave it in an indefinite shape. We might have a more than adequate representation. But I do not think anyone would suggest the ludicrous Amendment that we should put in "a less than adequate representation," and the ingenuity of man is not beyond framing some kind of Amendment which might bring this Instruction within the range approved by some of my hon. Friends, and which yet should not be open to the censure that it was a breach of order. Possibly we might amend the Instruction by speaking of minority representation, which would satisfy the demand made on the other side, and, at the same time, secure the preponderance of the present management which is desired. ["Hear, hear!"] After all, in assenting to this Instruction you assent to nothing. It is not a legislative enactment, and you are only going so far as to enable the Committee to consider the matter of putting parents upon the school committee at all. Then comes this insuperable objection upon which my right hon. Friend relies, and which my hon. and learned Friend here magnified in his very ingenious speech, That insuperable objection is, that if you really did adopt this Instruction you would open a floodgate of Amendments which would sweep away the whole Bill. That is the objection upon which reliance has been placed. How far is that insuperable objection sound? My hon. and learned Friend pictured to himself a Committee of the House devising a scheme of representation of parents and of ratepayers, and he asks, Should the parent who has got children in the school at a particular date be of the electors, or should they be parents who had children there a certain time, and how, he inquired, should they vote and when? Hon. Gentlemen must know well enough that this House would never go into all the details of the machinery involved by this Instruction. That machinery would be framed by the Education Department. ["Hear, hear!"] It would be that Department, and not this House, who would determine how the parents and the ratepayers should be
    1214
    represented on the management of the schools. To suppose that this House would deal with all these details is a mere figment of the imagination. ["Hear, hear!"] I cannot understand how any different view of the matter can be taken by anyone who is conversant with the history of our educational legislation. ["Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members sitting on this side of the House have declared that they are in favour of the principle of this Instruction, and that they only oppose the Instruction because of the amount of discussion it would leave open in Committee, and because, in their opinion, the Bill would perish under the weight of the new matter which would be imported into that discussion. But let me ask—Would it have been impossible to have entered into some Parliamentary understanding in reference to this subject? [Opposition cheers and Ministerial ironical cheers and laughter.] Some hon. Members laugh at that suggestion—why, Parliamentary understandings form part of the ordinary machinery for facilitating the business of this House. I think that a Parliamentary understanding might have easily been arrived at earlier in the evening, or, indeed, before the Debate commenced, whereby this discussion might have been kept within very narrow limits. [Opposition cheers.] In my opinion such a Parliamentary understanding would have saved the time of the House instead of wasting it. ["Hear, hear!"] I will end as I began. I shall support the Instruction, because I believe that by adopting it we should improve the Bill and should have afforded the Committee an opportunity of improving the educational organisation of the country. [Opposition cheers.] We may have—and I hope we shall have—a supplementary Bill; but even such a Measure, unless it includes the principle of this Instruction, will not be satisfactory. In conclusion, I may say that I believe that we should have saved time instead of losing it, if the right hon. Gentleman had had the courage to have accepted this Instruction, which I believe would operate in the interests of the education of the country, and in those of the Voluntary Schools. [Opposition cheers.]
    *SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid that he was certainly surprised that no occupant of the

    1215
    Treasury Bench should have thought it necessary to rise and answer the powerful speech of the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. ["Hear, hear!"] He did not really know whether the new mode of conducting Debates in that House was that the Government Front Bench was to preserve silence in all cases after the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury had spoken, in order to prevent criticism and to prevent the opinions expressed by their supporters from being carried into effect in the Division Lobby. The speeches which had been delivered from the other side of the House, with perhaps one or two exceptions, were practically in support of the principle of the Instruction, and he must again express his surprise that no notice whatever should have been taken by the Government of those speeches. He was sorry that so much stress should have been laid upon the length of this Debate, which, no doubt, was considerable. [Ironical cheers from the Government Benches.] He quite understood the meaning of that cheer and the misconstruction of his words. ["Hear, hear!"] He thought, however, that a question of this magnitude deserved a reasonable amount of consideration. He denied the right of the strongest Government to say that that House must register their decrees, and that that House must do as they told them. ["Hear, hear!"] They would see by-and-by whether that was a successful mode of conducting the business of that House. [Cheers.] No doubt the Government were influenced in the line they were taking in this matter from what had fallen from certain of their supporters. One hon. and gallant Member opposite had spoken strongly in favour of the principle of this Instruction, but had said that, notwithstanding that fact, he felt it to be his duty to support the Government and to vote against the Instruction. The Government, however, had unfortunately, as he thought, announced that they regarded this question as a vital one, and the independent Conservative Party had determined to fight it upon strict Party lines, instead of looking at it from the point of view as to what would be the best for the educational interests of the country. ["Hear, hear!"] Upon what were they going to divide that night—or, at all events, at the conclusion
    1216
    of this Debate? They were not going to divide upon any question of machinery, not upon any question involving the right of parents or of ratepayers to take a part in the management of these schools, but whether the Committee was to have an opportunity of considering whether the scheme embodied in this Instruction was or was not a feasible one. ["Hear, hear!"] The only opposition to that proposition which could be justified, was the opposition of hon. Members who took the view of the hon. and learned Member for Plymouth—namely, the opposition to the principle. He was in a state of perfect confusion as to what was the meaning and attitude of the First Lord of the Treasury. [Laughter.] He told them just now that what he said then was what he said six hours ago. What did the right hon. Gentleman say six hours ago? He then opposed, upon principle, upon the merits, parental control and ratepaying control. ["Hear, hear!"] What did he say about parental control? He ridiculed the thing as impossible, and asked the question, "Why should parents have control? He said they contributed nothing, he said they got their education absolutely free, and he asked what right they had to interfere in the management of the schools.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: Hear, hear. [Opposition laughter.] I do not know whether the right hon. Gentleman listened to my speech—
    *SIR H. FOWLER: Oh, every syllable of it. [Laughter.]
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I never called parental control the worst thing; what I said was that it had been tried, and that, in the opinion of the Department, in the places where it had been tried the success had not been very marked.
    *SIR H. FOWLERsaid the right hon. Gentleman would not question his accuracy in saying that he asked this question, Why should parents—
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: "What right?"
    *SIR H. FOWLERsaid the right hon. Gentleman asked the question, "What right had parents to have control?" He would tell him what right they had. They had the right given them by the fact that in 8,000 parishes of this country they had no choice as to the school; they must either send their children to the school

    1217
    appointed, or be sent themselves to prison—[cheers]—and of every 1s. that was spent in that school 9d. came out of the public funds, to which those parents contributed in the shape of taxes. He contended that that constituted a moral right that they should have some voice in the management of the schools, and some means of seeing that those securities which the Legislature had provided for the protection of their children's rights should be fully and adequately carried out. ["Hear, hear!"] The right hon. Gentleman then asked what right had the ratepayers, and told them that the whole philosophy of the case was contained in one syllogism, which was practically this—every expenditure of public money from the rates was controlled by the ratepayers, every expenditure of public money from the taxes was controlled by the House of Commons; this was an expenditure from the taxes, therefore the control of the House of Commons was sufficient. He denied the major premiss of that syllogism, and he thought his light hon. Friend who had just sat down had disposed of it, in theory, completely. But he Would venture to remind the House that it was already disposed of in practice. It was perfectly true that in largo branches of public expenditure, such as the Army or Navy, the control of the expenditure was in the hands of the Minister who was responsible to the House, and the House exercised a direct control in that matter; but there was a large class of expenditure which the House delegated to local authorities because it was of a local character. He would give the familiar illustration of the police. He would be a very bold man who should propose that the police of this country should be controlled in that House through the means of the Home Secretary, and the local authorities deprived of all power, because one half of the cost of the police was voted by the House. ["Hear, hear!"] The House adopted the same principle with reference to technical education, and, in the case of the whole system of grants in aid of local taxation out of the general taxation of the country, the House of Commons voted large sums for local purposes, the administration of which was left in the hands of the local authorities. The right hon. Gentleman might say that that was the philosophy of the transaction, but he
    1218
    himself did not think that it represented the true relations between that House and public expenditure. If they were to put the entire control of a denominational school into the hands of the representative body they would make it a Board School—they would destroy its denominational character, and he would say candidly that that would be unjust and unfair. ["Hear, hear!"] But what they asked for was a representation upon that body. The right hon. Gentleman had said:—
    "You admit you are a minority, as a minority you would always be outvoted; what, then, is the good of being upon that body? "
    That not only struck at the root of the representation of minorities, but it struck at the very principle of free constitutional Government. The House of Commons did not exist simply to carry out the views of majorities, although of course in the end the majority triumphed. The right hon. Gentleman had not been a Member of that House for 20 years, and sat on both sides of the House, above the Gangway and below the Gangway, without knowing the enormous influence which even weak and despised minorities could exercise. [Cheers.] He could remember the right hon. Gentleman with a very small number of comrades—[laughter]—one of whom was the representative of the Committee of Council in that House—[cheers]—he could remember that gallant body facing with undaunted courage a majority as large as that of the present Government, and far more united. [Loud Opposition cheers.] That minority was not powerless. Its opponents were beaten, though, if the right hon. Gentleman would pardon him for saying so, he took five years to beat them. [The FIRST LORD of the TREASURY: "No, no!"] He did not wish to minimise the power of a minority—[laughter]—he was arguing rather against the proposition that a minority was a superfluity. Now, when his hon. Friend the Member for Carnarvon stated that a great many schools were in the hands of the clergyman, and the clergyman alone, there were some very indignant sounds of dissent, but the Report of the Conservative majority of the Royal Commission showed that one of the grievances of the Voluntary Schools was that in a large number of cases there was but one

    1219
    practical manager, and that manager was the clergyman. ["Hear, hear!"] He did not intend to say anything disrespectful of the clergyman quâ clergyman, but he asserted that, even if there were no representation of the ratepayers and parents to be considered, it was not in the public interest that one man should have the control of the education of a parish and have the control of a large sum of public money. [Cheers.] In the interest of education it was right that the House of Commons should insist that there should be a certain number of managers, and that those managers should be jointly responsible. Let them suppose that even if there was only one man representing the ratepayers or the parents—what did that man do? He threw the light of public opinion—["hear, hear!"]—upon the working of the institution. [Cheers.] Things were said and done now which would not be said and done if that light were thrown upon the proceedings of the board of management. It might be asked, "What do you want; do you want to interfere with the denominational character of the schools? "No, they did not. The law would not allow them to do so. A denominational school must be carried on according to the trust on which it was founded. They wanted to secure what the Education Department, in consequence of the overpowering multiplicity of details, could not secure—they wanted to secure that not only this 5s. additional grant, but all grants spent in a school, should be fairly and honourably and honestly spent in the promotion of education—[cheers]—that there should not be extravagance, that there should not be parsimony, that there should not be injustice. Was that not a matter worthy of public discussion? There was no question of the local agitator as the noble Lord the Member for Rochester seemed to imagine there was. The local agitator was an individual of whom they heard a great deal when the Parish Council Bill was passing through the House, but they had never heard of him since. They had seen in the Parish
    1220
    Councils a union of all classes to promote the working of the Act, and if a representative of the ratepayers or parents were appointed in this case he would be found working with the other members of the Board of Management to do the best for the school. He came back to the question of the 8,000 parishes. He believed hon. Gentlemen opposite recognised fairly the fact that in those 8,000 parishes there was no choice of schools. He knew it to be true that Nonconformist children were forced by law into Roman Catholic schools. He did not think the noble Lord the Member for Rochester would like the law to force Anglican children into Nonconformist Schools. ["Hear, hear!"] He did not at the present moment complain, of that state of things, but he maintained that they were entitled to exceptional and special consideration in consequence of that state of things. What did they ask? They asked that the conscience clause should be fairly and fully fulfilled in all its bearings, [VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: "It is;" and hon. MEMBERS: "No, it is not!"] The noble Lord said with truth, yesterday, that there was a small number of clergymen who were guilty of outrageous conduct in reference to the burial of the dead. Men who would be guilty of outrageous and intolerable bigotry with reference to the burial of the dead would not shrink from being guilty of the same thing with respect to the education of children. [Cheers.] He did not say that there was a general evasion of the Conscience Clause, But there were reported to the heads of the various bodies of Nonconformists a sufficient number of cases of evasion, and that made a grievance which ought to be removed. [Cheers.] There was such a thing as breaking the conscience clause in the spirit as well as in the letter. [Cheers.] It was against that they wished to protect the children. [Cheers.] It might be said that nothing was done in those schools which the law prohibited; that children were taught nothing to which their parents objected; but there were various little details of the management

    1221
    of a school which might be made, on the one hand, an honourable fulfilment, or, on the other hand, a dis-honourable fulfilment of the conditions of the law. [Cheers.] Hon. Members who were acquainted with the great Secondary Schools of the country knew that boys attending them were not put to any disadvantage on account of the religious opinions of their parents; that there was no head master who could not carry out fully and completely the religious instruction he had to give without treating any boy unjustly. But that state of things did not prevail in the Voluntary Schools—[cheers]—and if they had on the management of those schools representatives of the parents or of the public to see that the Conscience Clause was fairly worked, it would remove a great deal of friction that at present impaired the results of our primary system of education. It was said that the Voluntary Schools were popular schools, that parents desired them and would have them. Surely they would be made more popular still if the parents had representation on their management? Surely, if they were linked with popular representation they would obtain an element of strength they did not now possess. [Cheers.] The hon. Member for the Warwick Division made a powerful speech in favour of the very thing against which he proposed to vote. The hon. Member declared that the doctrine of popular representation was always well received at diocesan meetings, and that the friends of the Voluntary Schools were not frightened by it. But the hon. Member had been put under pressure. [Cheers and laughter.]
    COLONEL MILWARD: I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon, I am not put under pressure of any kind whatever. [Laughter and cheers.] I acknowledge the value, the extraordinary value, of the schools having popular representation, but I say the time is not yet come to apply it to the Voluntary Schools.
    *SIR HENRY FOWLERsaid the hon. Gentleman had said in the course of his speech that, if this
    1222
    Instruction were carried, the Government would drop the Bill or resign—[cheers]—and that he therefore would not be a party to turning out the Government. [Ministerial cheers.] He did not quarrel with the hon. Gentleman's party loyalty. But had it come to this—that this great Government, with its unprecedented majority and with those European difficulties which they said, and rightly said, were of such supreme importance at the present moment, were prepared—unless their followers were ready to help them in preventing a discussion of the principle of representation—to throw up their offices and say, "We resign the Government of the country"? [Cheers.] The leaders of the great Tory party had at all events the courage of their convictions. They objected to popular representation. But their supporters could not go to the country and say they were in favour of popular representation. [Cheers.] Many hon. Members opposite had said they would vote against the Instruction because they were afraid the Government would resign. If Liberals had said such things what scornful denunciation would have been heaped upon them by the First Lord of the Treasury. [Cheers.] The right hon. Gentleman talked about time being wanted. This was only the 25th of February; the Session had hardly commenced. Was the Government reduced to such a state of Parliamentary impotency that with a majority of 150 behind them they could not carry a five-clause Bill if there were added to it one of the two more provisions that were likely to lead to some controversy? [Cheers.] But then, how many more Bills were they going to have? There was the Bill for the Board Schools, the Bill for Secondary Education; there was to be a Scotch Bill, and there was to be an Irish Bill. They should bring in a strong Bill and carry it. [An HON. MEMBSER: "A long Bill?"] He sat there for 30 nights with a small majority behind him, and they carried their Bill. ["Hear, hear!"] When they were half through with their Bill they were told to cut it in

    1223
    half and they would carry it. They refused to drop a line of it, and they carried it with their poor majority of 30 or 40. [Cheers.] Let the Government tell the country the real reason—namely, that they disliked this popular representation, and that they believed it would be injurious to Denominational Schools. [Cheers.]
    THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,),who rose amid cries of "Gorst," said that the Government had brought in this Bill, and they meant to carry it. The right hon. Gentleman evinced a great disposition to take the management of the Bill out of the hands of the Government, but the Government preferred to retain the management of their own Measure. The right hon. Gentleman said they were at the beginning of a long Debate, and the experience of that evening had enabled them to judge that that was the case. As to the references to the speeches on that side of the House, there were many Gentlemen who would have expressed themselves strongly against this Instruction, but they had abstained from doing that—[cheers and counter cheers]—because by speaking they would be playing into the hands of the Opposition. ["Hear, hear!"] How long the Debate would be if the Instruction were carried he shrank from calculating. There was one touch of humour in the speech of the Member for Nottingham when he spoke of this Instruction as "the olive branch." An olive branch! It was an Instruction which would destroy the Bill. [VOICES: "Why?"] The Opposition were under no illusions with regard to that, and he could wish that some of his hon. Friends were as clear-sighted as the hon. Gentlemen opposite. He was afraid that one or two of his hon. Friends had been under an illusion, and that in airing their views they had been unconsciously playing into the hands of those who wished to destroy the Bill. The terms of the Instruction which he read showed what their object was. The Instruction referred to representation of parents. He would
    1224
    admit that, by voluntary arrangement, in many cases it might be very desirable to have associated with the clergyman and the other managers those who had the confidence of the parents. But would anyone who considered the question seriously say that it was possible to put into the form of an Act of Parliament a provision that such a fluctuating body as the parents of the children should, by election, be represented on the Board of Management?
    MR. HERBERT LEWIS: It is done already in Wales.
    The SOLICITOR GENERAL: Yes, by arrangement.
    MR. HERBERT LEWIS: No, by scheme.
    THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid that it was not done with reference to elementary schools. When the right hon. Member for Bodmin said that it was a figment of the imagination to suppose there was any difficulty in providing for this representation, he was allowing his own imagination to run away with him. [Cheers.] What would be the crop of Amendments which would spring up if such an attempt were made in the Bill? ["Hear, hear!"] The Instruction proceeded to say that there should be representation of local authorities. In many cases this worked admirably, no doubt. That independent gentlemen, resident in the locality, should voluntarily associate themselves with the management of the schools was one thing; but it was quite another thing to say that under the compulsion of the Education Department, acting under Parliamentary instructions, the local authorities were to put representatives on the Boards of Management. Voluntary association often worked admirably; but he was quite convinced that compulsory power given to the local authorities would have an effect the very opposite to that desired by all friends of Voluntary Schools. [Cheers.] It would produce intolerable friction. [Cheers.] The subscriptions to the schools came from the subscribers; the local authorities contributed nothing, and on what principle

    1225
    were they to have the right to representation? He believed that support from the rates would draw after it local control; and he was quite certain that, with any sense of justice, representation of local authorities must draw after it support from the rates. To give representation without support from the rates was a proposition totally inadmissible. [Cheers.] Reference had been made to the vagueness of the Instruction, and he would call attention to its insidious character. There was to be adequate representation of local authorities. What was to be regarded as "adequate representation" I The House was now told that it was representation which would always leave the local authority in the minority. But how long would that last? [Cheers.] Once the principle of compulsory representation admitted, how long would it be before there was a demand that the local authority should have the controlling voice? It was said that there was now abuse of the Conscience Clause. How could that be remedied unless the local authority had the controlling voice as to the appointment and dismissal of teachers? [Cries of "Public opinion."] Public opinion at present controlled these schools. [Cheers and loud cries of "No."] They were carried on under local scrutiny and under the pressure of local public opinion. [Cries of "No" and ironical laughter.] It was very easy to parade in the House a few very exceptional cases of things done which all regretted; but on the whole the management of the Voluntary Schools was carried on in the light of day and in a manner approved of by the public opinion of the House of Commons. [Cheers and cries of "No."]
    MR. A. J. MUNDELLA: What is the case in Scotland? [Cheers.]
    THE SOLICITOR GENERALsaid that surely the right hon. Gentleman knew that the School Boards in Scotland had the control of the schools, and contributed out of the rates for their support. If the right hon. Gentleman wished to apply the lessons he had learnt north of the
    1226
    Tweed let him apply them in their entirety. [Cheers.] Now, he would not add to the length of the Debate by elaborating arguments which might be adduced. He had endeavoured to deal with the salient points put forward and emphasised by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton. He would only, in conclusion, call the attention of the House to the fact that this Instruction was one which, if adopted, would have the effect of wrecking the Bill. But of its being adopted there was not the slightest chance. [Cheers.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite might say that the Instruction was to be thrown out by votes. But he believed that if time permitted of every one of his hon. Friends speaking in the Debate, they would find it would be thrown out, not merely by votes, but by the vastly preponderating opinion of the whole House. [Cheers.]
    MR. JOHN BRIGGsaid they had listened to no speech in the Debate with more respect than that of the hon. Member for North Islington, in which he urged the House to adopt the principle of the Instruction, leaving to be decided later how it could best be carried out. The difficulties which had been raised as to carrying out the Instruction had been fully met by Members on both sides of the House. There should be popular control of the Voluntary Schools, the management of which was often now anything but what it should be. Better managers were needed. It had been shown conclusively that Board Schools were always willing and able to earn 1s. per head more than Voluntary Schools. Although money was useful in the management of the schools, it was, after all, a question of school management, and for this better provision should be made.
    MR. H. J. WILSONremarked that stress had been laid on the fact that in 8,000 parishes in this country there was absolutely no choice for parents in the matter of schools. That was a very moderate statement of the case. Where was there adequate choice? Let them have plenty of room in the Board Schools, and let

    1227
    them see, then, how they would be filled up. In many cases there was no choice whatever. He had been for many years a Member of the School Board for Sheffield, and he had had to sit on the Appeal Committee, before which the question had been raised again and again, Where were the parents to send their children? and he had been obliged to tell parents that they must send them to Roman Catholic schools, because there was nowhere else to send them. Here was an opportunity of ascertaining whether denominational schools were really as popular with the people as hon. Gentlemen opposite averred. But this very moderate proposal that there should be a minority representation of the ratepayers or parents, or of both, was scorned and rejected by the Party opposite. The right hon. Member for Bodmin had tried to extract from the First Lord of the Treasury what was his true position in relation to this matter; but he had failed, in spite of his ingenuity. From the Solicitor General's speech, however, there could be no doubt that the occupants of the Ministerial Bench had a rooted objection to the representation of the parents. The hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to think that parents who were compelled to send their children to Voluntary Schools were persons of no importance.
    THE SOLICITOR GENERAL: No; I said that the representation of parents was an admirable thing, and could be effected by arrangement, but that to pass a law making it compulsory was impracticable, and would result in mischief. ["Hear, hear!"]
    MR. H. J. WILSONthought that when the hon. and learned Gentleman said that he must have been laughing in his sleeve. Reasonable clerical managers might very possibly welcome the assistance of parents; but how about the cases where they were not reasonable—cases where the parents desired representation and the clergy would not let them have it? They all knew of glaring cases of mismanagement and tyranny and violation of the Conscience Clause. If they referred to such cases in that House, they were at once called upon by hon. Members opposite to give names; but those hon. Members knew quite well that if the
    1228
    names were given, the unhappy victims of clerical tyranny would be made to suffer still more in the future than in the past. Hon. Members of that House had a free choice in regard to their children's schools, but poor people, not only in the 8,000 villages which had been mentioned but in many large towns as well, had no choice at all; and when it was proposed to give them a little representation the Government declared that the idea could not be entertained for a single moment. Right hon. Gentlemen opposite would find that they would be asked in the country how it was that at elections they expressed so much confidence in the people, but when in power refused to grant them any modicum of representation. [Cries of "Oh!" and "Hear, hear!"] The very moderate proposal of the Opposition was scorned and rejected by the Government—[cries of "Divide!" and "Order!"]—who seemed to think that the parents of the children were of no importance.
    The FIRST LORD of the TREASURY and
    Mr. J. MORLEYrose simultaneously. The former having given way,
    MR. J. MORLEYsaid: I beg to move that this Debate be now adjourned. [Loud Ministerial cries of "Oh!" and cheers.]
    *MR. SPEAKER: Does any Gentleman second the Motion?
    SIR W. HARCOURT: Yes, Sir, I rise to second it. [Renewed interruption and cheers.]
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I hope the two right hon. Gentlemen who have associated themselves in so unusual a manner with this Motion—[cheers]—will not think of pressing it upon the House. We have now been discussing this Instruction for a whole night. Two right hon. Gentlemen have spoken from the Front Bench opposite, and two Gentlemen have also spoken from this Front Bench, and, according to the ordinary procedure of the House, had a third Gentleman desired to address us from the Front Opposition Bench he would have risen after my hon. and learned Friend the Solicitor General had spoken, and would have replied to his speech. I never in my whole Parliamentary experience—[cheers]—recollect a course being taken

    1229
    like that which the right hon. Gentlemen opposite have thought fit to take to-night. It is not in accordance with our ordinary practice. I do not like even to suggest that it was done in order unduly to prolong Debate—[cheers]—but, had that been the object which right hon. Gentlemen had in view, I do not know that there was any other course which they could have pursued. A similar Instruction to the one we are now discussing was moved on a somewhat similar ocasion, when my right hon. Friend the Member for the Dartford Division brought in his Hill for free education. It was then said that a grant of 10s. per child—not 5s.—supplied a proper occasion for dealing with the question of popular control. That was an occasion absolutely parallel to the present, and one night was thought sufficient by universal consent for dealing with the Amendment; and I confess I could not be a party to an attempt to prolong the present discussion. [Loud cheers.]
    *MR. JOHN ELLISwho spoke amid Ministerial cries of "Divide," said he could give the right hon. Gentleman a good reason why the Debate should be adjourned—on the ground of ordinary Parliamentary procedure, to quote the expression just made use of by the Leader of the House. The House had not heard a word from the Vice President of the Council—["Oh, oh!" and cheers]—and he said they might search "Hansard" through in
    vain when a great Education Bill had been before the House to find that the Vice President of the Council, who was the Minister responsible to the House—[cheers]—had never been allowed to open his mouth. [Cheers.]
    MR. C. P. SCOTTwho also spoke amid loud cries of "Divide" and interruption, said the more this question was discussed the more the country would be roused to a sense of its importance. [Cheers.] Why had the House been threatened on this occasion with the resignation of the Government? [Ironical laughter.] Was it not because the First Lord of the Treasury knew that he could not trust his supporters? [Cheers and laughter.] They had seen no more remarkable demonstration than that which took place that evening on the other side of the House. It had even taken the Opposition by surprise.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYrose just before midnight and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put." [Ministerial cheers.]
    Question put, "That the Question be now put."
    The House divided:—Ayes, 284; Noes, 133.
    The announcement of the figures was received with Ministerial cheers.
    Division List—No. 48—appended.

    AYES.

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

    Bethell, Captain

    Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Allsopp, Hon. George

    Biddulph, Michael

    Charrington, Spencer

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Bigham, John Charles

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

    Bigwood, James

    Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth)

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Bond, Edward

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Baden-Powell, Sir Geo. Smyth

    Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness)

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Balcarres, Lord

    Brassey, Albert

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Baldwin, Alfred

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Compton, Lord Alwyne (Beds.)

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

    Brown, Alexander H.

    Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

    Balfour, Gerald William (Leeds)

    Bucknill, Thomas Townsend

    Cooke, C. W. Radclift'e (Heref'd)

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Courtney, Rt. Hon. Leonard H.

    Barry, A. H. Smith-(Hunts.)

    Butcher, John George

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Barry, Francis Tress (Windsor)

    Campbell, James A.

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Bartley, George, C. T.

    Carew, James Laurence

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    Bass, Hamar

    Carlile, William Walter

    Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Carson, Edward

    Curzon, Rt. Hn. G. N. (Lanc. S. W.)

    Beach, Rt. Hon. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lanes.)

    Curzon, Viscount (Bueks.)

    Beach, W. W. Brainstem (Hants)

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Cecil, Lord Hugh

    Darling, Charles John

    Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

    Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Bemrose, Henry Howe

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.)

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r)

    Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. Dixon

    Donkin, Richard Sim

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Plunkett, Hon. Horace Curzon

    Dorington, Sir John Edward

    Jenkins, Sir John Jones

    Pollock, Harry Frederick

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Doxford, William Theodore

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    Purvis, Robert

    Drucker, A.

    Johnstone, John H. (Sussex)

    Rankin, James

    Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

    Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Kemp, George

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

    Richards, Henry Charles

    Fardell, Thomas George

    Kenrick, William

    Richardson, Thomas

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

    Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir Matthew W.

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir. T. (Mancr.)

    Kimber, Henry

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Rollit, Sir Albert Kaye

    Fielden, Thomas

    Knowles, Lees

    Round, James

    Finch, George H.

    Knox, Edmund Francis Vesey

    Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Lafone, Alfred

    Russell, Sir George (Berksh.)

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Laurie, Lieut.-General

    Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

    Fison, Frederick William

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Rutherford, John

    FitzGerald, Sir R. U. Penrose

    Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry)

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Flannery, Fortescue

    Lecky, William Edward H.

    Saunderson, Col. Edw. James

    Fletcher, Sir Henry

    Leos, Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Savory, Sir Joseph

    Flower, Ernest

    Legh, Hon. Thomas W. (Lanc.)

    Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

    Folkestone, Viscount

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Seely, Charles Hilton

    Forster, Henry William

    Leighton, Stanley

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

    Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans'a)

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. E. (Essex)

    Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

    Fry, Lewis

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Simeon, Sir Harrington

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Garfit, William

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool)

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Gedge, Sydney

    Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

    Smith, Abel (Herts)

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.)

    Lorne, Marquess of

    Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Gilliat, John Saunders

    Lucas-Shadwell, William

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Godson, Augustus Frederick

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

    Goldsworthy, Major-General

    Macaleese, Daniel

    Stock, James Henry

    Gordon, John Edward

    Macdona, John Gumming

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Maclean, James Mackenzie

    Strauss, Arthur

    Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. G'rg's)

    Maclvre, John William

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

    McCalmont, Col. J. (Antrim E.)

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    M'Hugh, E. (Armagh, S.)

    Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Molver, Sir Lewis

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

    McKillop, James

    Talbot, John G. (Oxford Univ.)

    Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry)

    Malcolm, Ian

    Taylor, Francis

    Gretton, John

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Greville, Captain

    Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Gull, Sir Cameron

    Milbank, Powlett Charles John

    Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

    Halsey, Thomas Frederick

    Milton, Viscount

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.

    Milward, Colonel Victor

    Valentia, Viscount

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Monckton, Edward Philip

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

    Hardy, Laurence

    Monk, Charles James

    Warde, Lt.-Col. G. E. (Kent)

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants)

    Warkworth, Lord

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Webster, Sir R. E. (Isle of Wight)

    Havelock-Allan, General Sir H.

    More, Robert Jasper

    Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

    Heath, James

    Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Monm'thsh.)

    Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon-

    Heaton, John Henniker

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Whiteley, George (Stockport)

    Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

    Morrison, Walter

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)

    Hickman, Sir Alfred

    Mount, William George

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord Arthur (Down)

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Williams, Col. R. (Dorset)

    Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampstead)

    Murdoch, Charles Townshend

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

    Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Grah'm (Bute)

    Willox, John Archibald

    Hobhouse, Henry

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Wilson, John (Falkirk)

    Holland, Hon. Lionel Raleigh

    Myers, William Henry

    Wilson, J. W. (Worc'shire, N.)

    Hopkinson, Alfred

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Wodehouse, Edmond R. (Bath)

    Hornby, William Henry

    Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Wyndham, George

    Houston, R. P.

    O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)

    Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

    Howard, Joseph

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

    Howell, William Tudor

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Younger, William

    Hosier, James Henry Cecil

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Parnell, John Howard

    Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

    Pease, Arthur (Darlington)

    TELLERS TOR. THE AYES, Sir

    Hutton, John (Yorks. N. B.)

    Penn, John

    William Walrond and Mr. Anstruther.

    Isaacson, Frederick Wootton

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    1232

    1233

    NOES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Gilhooly, James

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Acland, Rt. Hon. A. H. Dyke

    Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

    Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

    Allan, William (Gateshead)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Perks, Robert William

    Allen, Wm. (Newc. under Lyme)

    Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Allison, Robert Andrew

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Pirie, Captain Duncan Vernon

    Arch, Joseph

    Haldane, Richard Burdon

    Price, Robert John

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

    Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Harrison, Charles

    Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

    Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

    Garwood George

    Randell, David

    Baker, Sir John

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Reckitt, Harold James

    Barlow, John Emmott

    Hazell, Walter

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Hogan, James Francis

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

    Holburn, J. G.

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Birrell, Augustine

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Roche, Hon. James (East Kerry)

    Brigg, John

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Scott, Charles Prestwich

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Edw.

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Burns, John

    Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea)

    Smith, Samuel (Flint)

    Burt, Thomas

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

    Souttar, Robinson

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Kilbride, Denis

    Spicer, Albert

    Caldwell, James

    Kitson, Sir James

    Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

    Cameron, Robert

    Labouchere, Henry

    Stevenson, Francis S.

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Lambert, George

    Strachey, Edward

    Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-

    Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land)

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Leng, Sir John

    Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

    Cawley, Frederick

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Wallace, Robert (Perth)

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Lloyd-George, David

    Walton, John Lawson

    Clough, Walter Owen

    Lockwood, Sir Frank (York)

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Colville, John

    Logan, John William

    Wayman, Thomas

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

    Wedderburn, Sir William

    Cozens-Hardy, Herbert Hardy

    M'Hugh, Patrick A. (Leitrim)

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Dalziel, James Henry

    McKenna, Reginald

    Williams, John Carvell (Notts.)

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

    McLaren, Charles Benjamin

    Wills, Sir William Henry

    Davies, W. Rees-(Pembrokesh.)

    McLeod, John

    Wilson, Frederick W. (Norfolk)

    Davitt, Michael

    Maden, John Henry

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Dixon, George

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Wilson, John (Govan)

    Doughty, George

    Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

    Woodall, William

    Dunn, Sir William

    Morley, Rt. Hn. John (Montrose)

    Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hud'rsf'ld)

    Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

    Mundella, Rt. Hn. Anthony John

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Norton, Captain Cecil William

    Ferguson, R. C. Munro (Leith)

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    TELLERS FOR TUE NOES, Mr.

    Foster, Sir Walter. (Derby Co.)

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Thomas Ellis and Mr. McArthur

    Fowler, Rt. Hn. Sir H (Wol'tn)

    Oldroyd, Mark

    Fowler, Matthew (Durham)

    Owen, Thomas

    Question put accordingly, "That the Debate be now adjourned."
    The House divided:—Ayes, 133; Noes, 283.—(Division List—No. 49—appended).

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Caldwell, James

    Acland, Rt. Hon. A. H. Dyke

    Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

    Cameron, Robert (Durham)

    Allan, William (Gateshead)

    Birrell, Augustine

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Allen, Wm. (Newe. under Lyme)

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-

    Allison, Robert Andrew

    Brigg, John

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Arch, Joseph

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Cawley, Frederick

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Brunner, Sir John Tomlinson

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Clough, Walter Owen

    Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

    Burns, John

    Colville, John

    Baker, Sir John

    Burt, Thomas

    Condon, Thomas Joseph

    Barlow, John Emmott

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Cozens-Hardy, Herbert Hardy

    Dalziel, James Henry

    Kitson, Sir James

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

    Labouchere, Henry

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs.)

    Davies, W. Rees-(Pembrokesh.)

    Lambert, George

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Davitt, Michael

    Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb'land)

    Roche, Hon. James (East Kerry)

    Dixon, George

    Leng, Sir John

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Doughty, George

    Lloyd-George, David

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Dunn, Sir William

    Lockwood, Sir Frank (York)

    Scott, Charles Prestwich

    Ellis, John Edward (Notts)

    Logan, John William

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

    Smith, Samuel (Flint)

    Ferguson, B. C. Munro (Leith)

    McKenna, Reginald

    Souttar, Robinson

    Foster, Sir Walter (Derby Co.)

    McLaren, Charles Benjamin

    Spicer, Albert

    Fowler, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (Wol'tn)

    McLeod, John

    Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

    Fowler, Matthew (Durham)

    Maden, John Henry

    Stevenson, Francis S.

    Gilhooly, James

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Strachey, Edward

    Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

    Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Morley, Rt. Hon. John (Montrose)

    Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E)

    Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley

    Mundella, Rt. Hn. Anthony John

    Wallace, Robert (Perth)

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Walton, John Lawson

    Haldane, Richard Burdon

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

    O'Connor, T. P. (Liverpool)

    Wayman, Thomas

    Harrison, Charles

    Oldroyd, Mark

    Wedderburn, Sir William

    Harwood, George

    Owen, Thomas

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Parnell, John Howard

    Williams, John Carvell (Notts)

    Hazell, Walter

    Paulton, James Mellor

    Wills, Sir William Henry

    Holburn, J. G.

    Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

    Wilson, Frederick W. (Norfolk)

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Perks, Robert William

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Wilson, John (Govan)

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Pirie, Captain Duncan Vernon

    Woodall, William

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Price, Robert John

    Woodhouse, Sir J. T (Hudd'rsf'ld)

    Jameson, Major J. Eustace

    Priestley, Briggs (Yorks.)

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Edw.

    Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

    Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea)

    Randell, David

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES, Mr.

    Jones, William (Carnarvonsh.)

    Reckitt, Harold James

    Thomas Ellis and Mr. McArthur

    Kilbride, Denis

    Rickett, J. Compton

    NOES.

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

    Brown, Alexander H.

    Darling, Charles John

    Allsopp, Hon. George

    Bucknill, Thomas Townsend

    Davenport, W. Bromley

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

    Butcher, John George

    Dixon-Hartland, Sir Fred. Dixon

    Atkinson, Rt. Hon. John

    Campbell, James A.

    Dorington, Sir John Edward

    Baden-Powell, Sir Geo. Smyth

    Carew, James Laurence

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Carlile, William Walter

    Doxford, William Theodore

    Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness)

    Carson, Edward

    Drucker, A.

    Balcarres, Lord

    Cavendish, R. E. (N. Lanes.)

    Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

    Baldwin, Alfred

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

    Cecil, Lord Hugh

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    Balfour, Gerald William (Leeds)

    Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

    Eardell, Thomas George

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.)

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Barry, A. H. Smith-(Hunts.)

    Chamberlain, J. Austen,(Worc'r)

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manch.)

    Barry, Francis Tress (Windsor)

    Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Field, Admiral (Eastbourne)

    Bartley, George C. T.

    Charrington, Spencer

    Fielden, Thomas

    Bass, Hamar

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Finch, George H.

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth)

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Bristol)

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants.)

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Fison, Frederick William

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    FitzGerald, Sir E. U. Penrose

    Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Flannery, Fortescue

    Bemrose, Henry Howe

    Colston, Chas. Edw, H. Athole

    Fletcher, Sir Henry

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Compton, Lord Alwyne (Beds.)

    Flower, Ernest

    Bethell, Commander

    Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

    Folkestone, Viscount

    Biddulph, Michael

    Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Horef'd)

    Forster, Henry William

    Bigham, John Charles

    Courtney, Rt. Hon. Leonard H.

    Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

    Bigwood, James

    Cranbourne, Viscount

    Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

    Bond, Edward

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Fry, Lewis

    Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

    Garfit, William

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Curzon, Rt. Hn. G. N. (Lanc. S. W.)

    Gedge, Sydney

    Brassey, Albert

    Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H. (City of Lond.

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

    1236

    1237

    Gilliat, John Saunders

    Legh, Hon. Thomas W. (Lanc.)

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Godson, Augustus Frederick

    Leigh-Bennett. Henry Carrie

    Rollit, Sir Albert Kayo

    Goldsworthy, Major-General

    Leighton, Stanley

    Round, James

    Gordon, John Edward

    Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swans'a)

    Russell, Gen. F. S. (Cheltenham)

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    Lockwood, Lt.-Col. A. R. (Essex)

    Russell, Sir George (Berksh.)

    Goschen, Rt. Hon. G. J. (St. G'rg's)

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

    Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

    Rutherford, John

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Long, Rt. Hn. Walter (Liverpool)

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

    Saunderson, Col. Edw. James

    Gray, Ernest (West Ham)

    Lorne, Marquess of

    Savory, Sir Joseph

    Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry)

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

    Gretton, John

    Lucas-Shadwell, William

    Seely, Charles Hilton

    Greville, Captain

    Lyttelton, Hon. Alfred

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Gull, Sir Cameron

    Macaleese, Daniel

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Halsey, Thomas Frederick

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

    Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.

    Maclean, James Mackenzie

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    Maclure, John William

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Hardy, Laurence

    McCalmont, Co). J. (Antrim, E.)

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    M'Hugh, E. (Armagh, S.)

    Smith, Abel (Herts.)

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    McIver, Sir Lewis

    Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)

    Havelock-Allan, General Sir H.

    McKillop, James

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Heath, James

    Malcolm, Ian

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Heaton, John Henniker

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Stanley, Edw. Jas. (Somerset)

    Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

    Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

    Stock, James Henry

    Hickman, Sir Alfred

    Milbank, Powlett Charles John

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Hill, Rt. Hon. Ld. Arthur (Down)

    Milton, Viscount

    Strauss, Arthur

    Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampstead)

    Milward, Colonel Victor

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

    Monckton, Edward Philip

    Sturt, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Hobhouse, Henry

    Monk, Charles James

    Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

    Holland, Hon. Lionel Raleigh

    Montagu, I Ion. J. Scott (Hants.)

    Talbot, Lord E. (Chichester)

    Hopkinson, Alfred

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Talbot, John G. (Oxford Univ.)

    Hornby, William Henry

    More, Robert Jasper

    Taylor, Francis

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Moirm'thsh.)

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Houston, R. P.

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Howard, Joseph

    Morrison, Waller

    Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

    Howell, William Tudor

    Mount, William George

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Hozier, James Henry Cecil

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Valentia, Viscount

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Murdoch, Charles Townshend

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

    Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

    Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute)

    Warde, Lt.-Col. C. E. (Kent)

    Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Warkworth, Lord

    Isaacson, Frederick Wootton

    Myers, William Henry

    Webster, Sir R. E. (I. of W.)

    Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. C. E.

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

    Wentworth, Bruce O. Vernon-

    Jenkins, Sir John Jones

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    Whiteley, George (Stockport)

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Johnstone, John H. (Sussex)

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Kemp, George

    Pease, Arthur (Darlington)

    Willox, John Archibald

    Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

    Penn, John

    Wilson, John (Falkirk)

    Kenrick, William

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Wilson, J. W. (Worc'sh. N.)

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Wodehouse, Edmond R, (Hath)

    Kimber, Henry

    Plunkett, Hon. Horace Curzon

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Pollock, Harry Frederick

    Wyndham, George

    Knowles, Lees

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

    Knox, Edmund Francis Vesey

    Purvis, Robert

    Yerburgh, Robert Armstrong

    Lafone, Alfred

    Rankin, James

    Younger, William

    Laurie, Lieut.-General

    Rasch, Major Frederic Carne

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    TEILERS FOU THE NOES, Sir

    Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry)

    Richards, Henry Charles

    William Walrond and Mr.

    Lecky, William Edward H.

    Richardson, Thomas

    Anstruther.

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Ridley Rt. Hon. Sir Matthew W.

    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYclaimed, "That the Original Question be now put."
    Original Question put accordingly,
    "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert Clause-, in the
    1238
    Bill with a view to making provision for insuring adequate representation of local authorities or parents on the management of the schools in receipt of the aid grant."—(Mr. Lloyd-George.)
    The House divided:—Ayes, 134; Noes, 270.—(Division List—No. 50—appended.)

    AYES.

    Abraham, William (Rhondda)

    Foster, Sir W. (Derby Co.)

    Pease, Joseph A. (Northumb.)

    Acland, Rt. Hon. A. H. Dyke

    Fowler, Rt. In. Sir H. (Wol'h'tn)

    Perks, Robert William

    Allan, William (Gateshead)

    Fowler, Matthew (Durham)

    Pickersgill, Edward Hare

    Allen, W. (Newc.-under-Lyme.)

    Gladstone, Rt. Hn. Herbert John

    Pirie, Captain Duncan Vernon

    Allison, Robert Andrew

    Goddard, Daniel Ford

    Price, Robert John

    Arch, Joseph

    Gourley, Sir Edward Temperley

    Priestley, Briggs (Yorks)

    Ashton, Thomas Gair

    Griffith, Ellis J.

    Provand, Andrew Dryburgh

    Atherley-Jones, L.

    Haldane, Richard Burdon

    Randell, David

    Austin, Sir John (Yorkshire)

    Harcourt, Rt. Hon. Sir William

    Reckitt, Harold James

    Baker, Sir John

    Harrison, Charles

    Rickett, J. Compton

    Barlow, John Emmott

    Harwood, George

    Roberts, John Bryn (Eifion)

    Bartley, George C. T.

    Hayne, Rt. Hon. Charles Seale-

    Roberts, John H. (Denbighs)

    Bayley, Thomas (Derbyshire)

    Hazell, Walter

    Robson, William Snowdon

    Beaumont, Wentworth C. B.

    Holburn, J. G.

    Roche, Hon. James (East Kerry)

    Birrell, Augustine

    Horniman, Frederick John

    Rollit, Sir Albert K.

    Bolton, Thomas Dolling

    Humphreys-Owen, Arthur C.

    Sandys, Lieut.-Col. Thos. Myles

    Brigg, John

    Hutton, Alfred E. (Morley)

    Schwann, Charles E.

    Broadhurst, Henry

    Jacoby, James Alfred

    Scott, Charles (Prestwich)

    Brunner, Sir John Thomas

    Johnson-Ferguson, Jabez Edw.

    Shaw, Charles Edw. (Stafford)

    Bryce, Rt. Hon. James

    Jones, David Brynmor (Swansea)

    Smith, Samuel (Flint)

    Burns, John

    Jones, William (Carnarvonshire)

    Souttar, Robinson

    Burt, Thomas

    Kilbride, Denis

    Spicer, Albert

    Buxton, Sydney Charles

    Kitson, Sir James

    Stanhope, Hon. Philip J.

    Caldwell, James

    Labouchere, Henry

    Stevenson, Francis S.

    Cameron, Robert (Durham)

    Lambert, George

    Strachey, Edward

    Campbell-Bannerman, Sir H.

    Lawson, Sir Wilfrid (Cumb.)

    Thomas, Abel (Carmarthen, E.)

    Carmichael, Sir T. D. Gibson-

    Lea, Sir Thomas (Londonderry)

    Thomas, Alfred (Glamorgan, E.)

    Causton, Richard Knight

    Long, Sir John

    Wallace, Robert (Perth)

    Cawley, Frederick

    Lewis, John Herbert

    Walton, John Lawson

    Channing, Francis Allston

    Lloyd-George, David

    Warner, Thomas Courtenay T.

    Clough, Walter Owen

    Lookwood, Sir Frank (York)

    Wayman, Thomas

    Colville, John

    Logan, John William

    Wedderburn, Sir William

    Courtney, Rt. Hon. Leonard H.

    Luttrell, Hugh Fownes

    Whittaker, Thomas Palmer

    Cozens-Hardy, Herbert Hardy

    McKenna, Reginald

    Williams, John Carvell (Notts.)

    Cross, Alexander (Glasgow)

    Me Laren, Charles Benjamin

    Wills, Sir William Henry

    Dalziel, James Henry

    McLeod, John

    Wilson, Frederick W. (Norfolk)

    Davies, M. Vaughan-(Cardigan)

    Maden, John Henry

    Wilson, Henry J. (York, W. R.)

    Davies, W. Rees-(Pembrokesh.)

    Morgan, J. Lloyd (Carmarthen)

    Wilson, John (Falkirk)

    Davitt, Michael

    Morley, Charles (Breconshire)

    Wilson, John (Govan)

    Dilke, Rt. Hon. Sir Charles

    Morley, Rt. Hon. John (Montrose

    Woodall, William

    Dixon, George

    Mundella, Rt. Hon Anthony John

    Woodhouse, Sir J. T. (Hudd'rsf Id.

    Doughty, George

    Norton, Capt. Cecil William

    Yoxall, James Henry

    Dunn, Sir William

    Nussey, Thomas Willans

    TELLERS FOR THE AYES, Mr.

    Ellis, John Edward (Notts.)

    Oldroyd, Mark

    Thomas Ellis and Mr. McArthur.

    Evans, Samuel T. (Glamorgan)

    Owen, Thomas

    Ferguson, E. C. Munro (Leith)

    Paulton, James Mellor

    NOES.

    Allhusen, Augustus Henry Eden

    Beckett, Ernest William

    Carew, James Laurence

    Allsopp, Hon. George

    Begg, Ferdinand Faithfull

    Carlile, William Walter

    Arnold-Forster, Hugh O.

    Bemrose, Henry Howe

    Carson, Edward

    Ashmead-Bartlett, Sir Ellis

    Bentinck, Lord Henry C.

    Cavendish, R. F. (N. Lancs)

    Atkinson, Right Hon. John

    Bethell, Commander

    Cavendish, V. C. W. (Derbyshire)

    Baden-Powell, Sir Geo. Smyth

    Biddulph, Michael

    Cecil, Lord Hugh

    Bagot, Capt. Josceline FitzRoy

    Bigham, John Charles

    Chaloner, Captain R. G. W.

    Baillie, James E. B. (Inverness)

    Bigwood, James

    Chamberlain, Rt. Hon. J. (Birm.)

    Balcarres, Lord

    Bond, Edward

    Chamberlain, J. Austen (Worc'r)

    Baldwin, Alfred

    Bonsor, Henry Cosmo Orme

    Chaplin, Rt. Hon. Henry

    Balfour, Rt. Hon. A. J. (Manch'r)

    Boscawen, Arthur Griffith-

    Charrington, Spencer

    Balfour, Gerald William (Leeds)

    Bousfield, William Robert

    Clare, Octavius Leigh

    Banbury, Frederick George

    Brassey, Albert

    Clarke, Sir Edward (Plymouth)

    Barry, A. H. Smith-(Hunts.)

    Brodrick, Rt. Hon. St. John

    Cochrane, Hon. Thos. H. A. E.

    Barry, Francis Tress (Windsor)

    Brown, Alexander H.

    Cohen, Benjamin Louis

    Bass, Hamar

    Bucknill, Thomas Townsend

    Collings, Rt. Hon. Jesse

    Bathurst, Hon. Allen Benjamin

    Bullard, Sir Harry

    Colomb, Sir John Charles Ready

    Beach, Rt. Hn. Sir M. H. (Brstl)

    Butcher, John George

    Colston, Chas. Edw. H. Athole

    Beach, W. W. Bramston (Hants)

    Campbell, James A.

    Compton, Lord Alwyne (Beds)

    1240

    1241

    Cook, Fred. Lucas (Lambeth)

    Howell, William Tudor

    Parnell, John Howard

    Cooke, C. W. Radcliffe (Heraf'd)

    Hozier, James Henry Cecil

    Pease, Arthur (Darlington)

    Cranborne, Viscount

    Hudson, George Bickersteth

    Penn, John

    Cripps, Charles Alfred

    Hutchinson, Capt. G. W. Grice-

    Pierpoint, Robert

    Cross, Herb. Shepherd (Bolton)

    Hutton, John (Yorks, N. R.)

    Platt-Higgins, Frederick

    Curzon, Rt. Hn. G. N. (Lanc. S. W.)

    Isaacson, Frederick Wootton

    Plunkett, Hon. Horace Curzon

    Curzon, Viscount (Bucks)

    Jebb, Richard Claverhouse

    Pollock, Harry Frederick

    Dalrymple, Sir Charles

    Jeffreys, Arthur Frederick

    Powell, Sir Francis Sharp

    Darling, Charles John

    Jenkins, Sir John Jones

    Purvis, Robert

    Davenport, W. Bromley-

    Jessel, Captain Herbert Merton

    Rankin, James

    Dickson-Poynder, Sir John P.

    Johnston, William (Belfast)

    Rentoul, James Alexander

    Dixon-Hartland, Sir F. Dixon

    Johnstone, John H. (Sussex)

    Richards, Henry Charles

    Dorington, Sir John Edward

    Jolliffe, Hon. H. George

    Richardson, Thomas

    Douglas, Rt. Hon. A. Akers-

    Kemp, George

    Ridley, Rt. Hon. Sir Matthew W.

    Doxford, William Theodore

    Kennaway, Rt. Hon. Sir John H.

    Ritchie, Rt. Hon. Chas. Thomson

    Drucker, A.

    Kenrick, William

    Round, James

    Duncombe, Hon. Hubert V.

    Kenyon-Slaney, Col. William

    Russell, (Jen. F. S. (Cheltenham)

    Dyke, Rt. Hon. Sir William Hart

    Kimber, Henry

    Russell, Sir George (Berkshire)

    Egerton, Hon. A. de Tatton

    King, Sir Henry Seymour

    Russell, T. W. (Tyrone)

    Fardell, Thomas George

    Knowles, Lees

    Rutherford, John

    Fellowes, Hon. Ailwyn Edward

    Knox, Edmund Francis Vesey

    Samuel, Harry S. (Limehouse)

    Fergusson, Rt. Hn. Sir J. (Manc)

    Lafone, Alfred

    Saunderson, Col. Ewd. James

    Field, Admiral (Eastbourne

    Laurie, Lieut.-General

    Savory, Sir Joseph

    Fielden, Thomas

    Lawrence, Wm. F. (Liverpool)

    Scoble, Sir Andrew Richard

    Finch, George H.

    Lecky, William Edward H.

    Seely, Charles Hilton

    Finlay, Sir Robert Bannatyne

    Lees, Sir Elliott (Birkenhead)

    Seton-Karr, Henry

    Fisher, William Hayes

    Legh, Hon. Thomas W. (Lanc.)

    Sharpe, William Edward T.

    Fison, Frederick William

    Leigh-Bennett, Henry Currie

    Sidebotham, J. W. (Cheshire)

    FitzGerald, Sir R. U. Penrose

    Heighten, Stanley

    Simeon, Sir Barrington

    Flannery, Fortescue

    Llewelyn, Sir Dillwyn-(Swns'a)

    Sinclair, Louis (Romford)

    Fletcher, Sir Henry

    Lock-wood, H.-Col. A. R. (Essex)

    Skewes-Cox, Thomas

    Flower, Ernest

    Loder, Gerald Walter Erskine

    Smith, Abel (Herts.)

    Folkestone, Viscount

    Long, Col. Charles W. (Evesham)

    Smith, Abel H. (Christchurch)

    Forster, Henry William

    Long, Rt. Hn. Waller (Liverpool)

    Smith, Hon. W. F. D. (Strand)

    Foster, Colonel (Lancaster)

    Lopes, Henry Yarde Buller

    Stanley, Lord (Lancs.)

    Foster, Harry S. (Suffolk)

    Lorne, Marquess of

    Stanley, Edwd. Jas. (Somerset)

    Galloway, William Johnson

    Loyd, Archie Kirkman

    Stock, James Henry

    Garfit, William

    Lucas-Shadwell, William

    Stone, Sir Benjamin

    Gedge, Sydney

    Macaleese, Daniel

    Strauss, Arthur

    Gibbs, Hn. A. G. H (City of Lond.

    Macdona, John Cumming

    Strutt, Hon. Charles Hedley

    Gibbs, Hon. Vicary (St. Albans)

    Maclean, James Mackenzie

    Start, Hon. Humphry Napier

    Gilliat, John Saunders

    Maclure, John William

    Sullivan, Donal (Westmeath)

    Godson, Augustus Frederick

    McCalmont, Col. J. (Antrim, E.

    Talbot Lord E. (Chichester)

    Goldsworthy, Major-General

    M'Hugh, E. (Armagh, S.)

    Talbot, John G. (Oxford Univ.)

    Gordon, John Edward

    Mclver, Sir Lewis

    Taylor, Francis

    Gorst, Rt. Hon. Sir John Eldon

    McKillop, James

    Thornton, Percy M.

    Goschen, Rt. Hn. G. J. (St. G'rg's)

    Malcolm, Ian

    Tollemache, Henry James

    Goschen, George J. (Sussex)

    Maple, Sir John Blundell

    Tomlinson, Wm. Edw. Murray

    Goulding, Edward Alfred

    Meysey-Thompson, Sir H. M.

    Tritton, Charles Ernest

    Graham, Henry Robert

    Milbank, Powlett Charles John

    Valentia, Viscount

    Green, Walford D. (Wednesb'ry)

    Milton, Viscount

    Vincent, Col. Sir C. E. Howard

    Gretton, John

    Milward, Colonel Victor

    Ward, Lt.-Col. G E. (Kent)

    Greville, Captain

    Monckton, Edward Philip

    Warkworth, Lord

    Gull, Sir Cameron

    Monk, Charles James

    Webster, Sir R. E. (Isle of Wight)

    Halsey, Thomas Frederick

    Montagu, Hon. J. Scott (Hants)

    Welby, Lieut.-Col. A. G E.

    Hamilton, Rt. Hon. Lord Geo.

    Moon, Edward Robert Pacy

    Wentworth, Bruce C. Vernon -

    Hanbury, Rt. Hon. Robert Wm.

    More, Robert Jasper

    Whiteley, George (Stockport)

    Hardy, Laurence

    Morgan, Hn. Fred. (Momn'thsh.)

    Whiteley, H. (Ashton-under-L.)

    Hare, Thomas Leigh

    Morrell, George Herbert

    Whitmore, Charles Algernon

    Haslett, Sir James Horner

    Morrison, Walter

    Williams, Colonel R. (Dorset)

    Havelock-Allan, General Sir H.

    Mount, William George

    Willoughby de Eresby, Lord

    Heath, James

    Muntz, Philip A.

    Willox, John Archibald

    Heaton, John Henniker

    Murdoch, Charles Townshend

    Wodehouse, Edmond R. (Bath)

    Hermon-Hodge, Robert Trotter

    Murray, Rt. Hn. A. Graham (Bute

    Wortley, Rt. Hon. C. B. Stuart-

    Hickman, Sir Alfred

    Murray, Charles J. (Coventry)

    Wyndham, George

    Hill, Rt. Hn. Lord Arthur (Down)

    Myers, William Henry

    Wyvill, Marmaduke D'Arcy

    Hoare, Edw. Brodie (Hampstead)

    Nicol, Donald Ninian

    Yerburgh, Thomas Armstrong

    Hoare, Samuel (Norwich)

    Northcote, Hon. Sir H. Stafford

    Holland, Hon. Lionel Raleigh

    O'Brien, Patrick (Kilkenny)

    TELLERS FOR THE NOES Sir

    Hornby, William Henry

    O'Connor, Arthur (Donegal)

    William Walrond and Mr.

    Houldsworth, Sir Wm. Henry

    O'Neill, Hon. Robert Torrens

    Anstruther.

    Houston, R. P.

    Orr-Ewing, Charles Lindsay

    Howard, Joseph

    Parkes, Ebenezer

    Bill considered in Committee.
    Clause 1,—
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

    MILITARY WORKS (MONEY) BILL.
    Committee deferred till Monday next.
    PUBLIC HEALTH (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [5th February] further adjourned till Thursday next.
    LAW OF EVIDENCE (CRIMINAL CASES) BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ALDERSHOT AND FARNBOROUGH) BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
    BERRIEW SCHOOL BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
    MILITARY LANDS ACT (1892) AMENDMENT BILL.
    Committee deferred till Monday next.
    TRUSTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    Committee deferred till Tuesday next.
    OLD AGE PROVIDENT PENSIONS BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 17th June.
    OUTDOOR PROVIDENT RELIEF BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Thursday, 17th June.
    TRUCK ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Friday, 12th March.
    STEAM ENGINES AND BOILERS (PERSONS IN CHARGE) BILL.
    Adjourned Debate on Motion for Committal to Standing Committee on Trade, etc. [17th February] further adjourned till Monday next.
    ARCHDEACONRY OF LONDON (ADDITIONAL ENDOWMENTS) BILL.
    Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [24th February] further adjourned till Wednesday next.
    LABOURERS COTTAGES (IRELAND) BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Wednesday next.
    ESTATES TAIL BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Monday next.
    LICENSING EXEMPTION (HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT) BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.

    GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS (FAIR WAGES RESOLUTION).
    Select Committee appointed to consider the working of the Fair Wages Resolution of February 1891, and its administration by the various Government Departments.
    The Committee was accordingly nominated of—Mr. Allison, Mr. Austin, Mr. Banbury, Mr. Broadhurst, Mr. Buchanan, Mr. Sydney Buxton, Sir Charles Dilke, Sir Arthur Forwood, Mr. Jackson, Mr. Maclean, Mr. Morrison, Sir Matthew White Ridley, Sir Albert Rollit, Mr. Parker Smith, and Mr. Powell-Williams.
    Ordered, That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records.
    Ordered, That Five be the quorum.—(Sir William Walrond.)
    House adjourned at a Quarter before One o'clock

STATUTE LAW REVISION BILLS AND CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
Message from the Commons to acquaint this House that they have appointed a Select Committee of seven Members to join with the Select Committee appointed by this House, as mentioned in their Lordships' Message on the 2nd instant, to consider all Statute Law Revision Bills and Consolidation Bills of the present Session.

CRETE (MINISTERIAL STATEMENT).
THE EARL OF DUNRAVEN: I desire to ask a question of the noble Marquess at the head of Her Majesty's Government—of which I have given private notice—namely, whether he is in a position to give this House any information as to the situation of affairs in Crete, and as to the progress of negotiations between the Powers with a view to the adoption of Measures for the pacification of Crete and for the reorganisation of the administration of that island?
*THE PRIME MINISTER (The MARQUESS of SALISBURY),who was received with cheers, said: I do not know that we have got quite so far as my noble Friend seems to anticipate, but we feel that it is not convenient or desirable that we should abstain from informing the House, so far as we can do so, of the policy which we are anxious to press, and which we think our allies agree with us in pursuing. I will read to the House, as the best form of placing them in possession of the actual facts of the moment, a telegram that was sent late last night to the five Powers:—
"Inform Government to which you are accredited that Her Majesty's Government propose to make the following public declaration of the policy which they are prepared to pursue and which they believe to be in accordance with the views of their allies:—1. That the establishment of administrative autonomy in Crete is in their judgment a necessary
1106
condition to the termination of the international occupation. 2. That, subject to the above provision, Crete ought in their judgment to remain a portion of the Turkish Empire. 3. That Turkey and Greece ought to be informed by the Powers of this resolution. 4. That if either Turkey or Greece persistently refuse, when required, to withdraw their naval and military forces from the island, the Powers should impose their decision by force upon the State so refusing."
I wish to draw attention to the words "when required." It docs not follow that, certainly in the case of Turkey, all the troops can be withdrawn immediately. Mere questions of police would prevent such a result as that. On the other hand, it is evident that eventually, at all events, the withdrawal of the Turkish troops is a necessary condition of administrative autonomy, and, therefore, the Turkish troops will ultimately have to be withdrawn, except so far as they may be kept—I am not anticipating the judgment of the Powers—except so far as they may be kept, as in the case of Samos, and, for many years, in the case of Servia, simply as an indication of sovereignty. On that I do not wish at all to anticipate the judgment of the Powers, but for all its effective purposes and for all influence upon the Government or the daily life of the inhabitants the Turkish troops ultimately will evidently have to be withdrawn when automony is established. The Greek troops, I imagine, will be required by the Powers to withdraw at an earlier date. I have nothing further to state, because, though I believe, after much intercommunication, that this is the course which the Powers all desire to take, I cannot go further until I know upon each point of detail what their decision is; that is one of the necessary consequences of acting in concert. But, of course, if these principles which we have ventured to lay down are recognised by them, as I believe they will be, as those which animate their policy, it is not possible that the present state of things in Crete can indefinitely continue. [Cheers.] There is no other matter which I have to state. I am sorry that I cannot carry my information as far as the question of my noble Friend, but it is evident that we must advance by steps, and the steps are necessarily measured by the assent which will follow from the consultation of the Powers. ["Hear!"]
THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: The statement of the noble Marquess is one naturally of great gravity to the situation of affairs in Crete and all the conditions which surround the question; and the noble Marquess, therefore, will not be greatly surprised if I wish to reserve any observations which I may wish to make until I have had time to consider the matter. ["Hear, hear!"]
House adjourned at Half-past Four o'clock, till To-morrow, a Quarter-past Ten o'clock.