Sitting of 21 April 1896

Preamble
The House met at Two of the clock.

STANDING COMMITTEE ON LAW.
MR. A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN MR. A. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN (Kent, Tonbridge) moved that the Grand Committee on Law have leave to sit this afternoon, notwithstanding the sittings of the House.
MR. H. S. FOSTERopposed the Motion on behalf of himself and other members of the Committee, who had, he said, intimated to him that it would be inconvenient to sit again without notice. The Committee, which had just adjourned for lunch, were not consulted about the present Motion.
*MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member will understand that I only put such a Motion when made either by the Chairman of the Committee in person or by someone who makes the Motion at the request of the Chairman, as was, I understood, done in this case.
MR. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWENsaid, he made the Motion at the request of the Chairman.
MR. H. S. FOSTERsaid, that did not remove his objection.
MR. CARVELL WILLIAMSsupported the objection of the hon. Member.
The House divided:—Ayes, 94; Noes, 75.—(Division List, No. 104.
Leave was accordingly granted.

PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION (EXPENSES).
Return [presented 20th April] to be printed.—[No. 145.]
FOREIGN GOODS (PREVENTION OF FRAUD) BILL.
Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [25th March] further adjourned from To-morrow till Wednesday, 29th April.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: To call attention to the question of Railway Rates; and to move a Resolution. [Tuesday 19th May.]
  IRELAND (DEPOPULATION).
  Mr. T. LOUGH: That the continued depopulation of Ireland points to the existence of economic causes capable of removal by improved financial arrangements, and, in the opinion of this House, calls for immediate consideration at the hands of the Legislature. [Tuesday 19th May.]
QUESTIONS.

  UFFINGTON STATION (GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY).
  MR. A. K. LOYD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade what steps, if any, have been taken to remedy the danger to the public reported by Major Yorke, R.E., to exist at Uffington Station on the Great "Western Railway, in his report to the Board of Trade, dated 11th August, 1894; whether he will state by whose authority the two sidings, required by Captain Rich to be removed from across the high road at that station as a condition of obtaining the sanction of the Board of Trade to the opening of the Faringdon Branch, have been since replaced across the highway, and another siding added to them; and the high road at this crossing rendered not only dangerous but impassable for long intervals by shunting operations upon such sidings; and whether it has been brought to the knowledge of the Department that
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  persons are daily compelled to make a detour of about two miles to avoid the danger and delays of the crossing at Uffington Station?
  *THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD or TRADE (Mr. C. T. RITCHIE,): The Board of Trade are informed that a footbridge has been erected at the station, and fencing put up between the space occupied by milk carts and the main line, so as to give protection when the carts are being unloaded. With regard to the two sidings referred to, the company state that at the time the Faringdon Railway was inspected it was the property of an independent company, and the line did not come into their possession until July, 1886. The sidings were put in again at some date or other without notice of the previous objection. The Company have fully considered the question of the construction of a bridge, but find that it is estimated to cost £10,000. They are unwilling to incur this large expense at a station where the total number of persons booking only average 25 per day, and are urging the Board of Trade to endeavour to make an arrangement by which a portion of the cost shall be borne by the local authorities. The Department have no knowledge of the number of persons making the détour in order to avoid the crossing. The district is said to be somewhat sparsely populated, and, as I have said, the bookings only average 25 a day.

  MILITARY TEMPORARY RANK (INDIA).
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, why a step of temporary rank has not been given to Majors and Captains holding the appointments of Commandant and second in command of regiments under the Government of India, the same as was given in the London Gazette of the 5th November 1895 to officers holding similar appointments in regiments under the Commander-in-Chief in India; and, what orders have been issued in India on the subject?
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): A few applications have recently been received for the grant of

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  temporary rank to officers of the Hyderabad contingent, but for no others. I will communicate with the Government of India on the subject.

  CARLOW GRAND JURY.
  MR. C. J. ENGLEDOW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether he is aware that the High Sheriff for the county of Carlow called Lieut.-Col. John James Hardy Eustace, J.P., to serve on the Grand Jury of the county of Carlow at the last Assizes, and he was sworn in to act as such, when he had a claim for compensation for malicious injury coming on for the decision of the jury, of which he himself was sworn in a member; if he will take steps in the future to guard against the repetition of such an irregularity; and, whether he will see that in the future, if such irregularities should again occur, some official of the Government will bring it to the notice of the Judge of Assize, and not place such a responsibility on the shoulders of a private individual?
  MR. ENGLEDOWfurther asked the Chief Secretary (1) whether he is aware that Lieutenant - Colonel John James Hardy Eustace, J.P., of Castlemore, county Carlow, was sworn in a member of the Grand Jury for that county at the last Assizes; that he acted on the jury when a claim of his for compensation for malicious injury was being considered, and that he only left the table at which the Grand Jury were deliberating when he was told that exception was going to be taken to his action; that, nothwith standing the fact that the foreman gave an undertaking that Lieutenant-Colonel John James Hardy Eustace, J.P., would not participate in the consideration of his own claim for compensation, that gentleman did not withdraw from the Grand Jury room, but only retired to a seat about one yard behind that he had just left, and still continued to converse with members of the Grand Jury; and that when the amount of compensation claimed by Lieutenant-Colonel John James Hardy Eustace, J.P., had been granted, that gentleman went to the map hanging in the Grand Jury room with other members of the Grand Jury, when the area over which the compensation was to be levied was being fixed;
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  and, (2) whether His Excellency the Lord Lieutenant has yet come to a conclusion whether the time has yet arrived when it would be necessary, just, and right to amend the Grand Jury Laws of Ireland?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): It was open to the hon. Member, who, I believe, was also a member of the same Grand Jury, and present at the hearing of the case, if he thought he had any cause of complaint, to have brought the matter under the notice of the Judge of Assize, but the Crown exercise no control or jurisdiction over the appointment and proceedings of Grand Juries, and have no means of taking any action as suggested. As to the second paragraph of the second Question, I must repeat what I have already stated, that is not the intention of the Government during the present Session to amend the Grand Jury Laws in Ireland.
  MR. ENGLEDOW: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1) whether his attention has been drawn to the statement in the Local Government Board Auditor's Report on the accounts of the Carlow Grand Jury, with reference to the accounts of the collector for the barony of Forth, that I have now directed him to lodge forthwith the sum of £40 10s. 11d., which he took credit for erroneously, and the further sum of.£61 7s. 7d., which he sets down in his statement of account as discrepancy; (2) whether there was any Resolution passed on this subject by the Grand Jury at the late assizes; and, if so, will he read it to the House; and whether any Resolution was adopted by the Grand Jury directing their solicitor to take the necessary steps to collect the sum of £51 17s. 7d., due by a former collector: and, if so, will he read a copy of it; (3) will he explain who was to blame for the non-fulfilment of the order (as set out in the Auditor's Report) that a claim should be made on the sureties of the late collector for £51 17s. 7d.; and (4) if he will ascertain from the Auditor the date when this deficiency took place, how it arose, and what action has since been taken by the Grand Jury, as shown by the records in that Office?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I have seen the Report of the Auditor to which

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  reference is made. The Grand Jury-propose to carry out his suggestions respecting the arrears of county cess outstanding, and have passed Resolutions relative to the matters mentioned in the second paragraph. Copies of these Resolutions will be forwarded to the hon. Member if he desires to have them. I have no information to enable me to reply to the third paragraph. The Auditor states it would not be possible to ascertain the date of the deficiency (which was not detected for some time after the appointment of the present collector), because of the great difficulty of collecting the county cess, owing to the opposition to payment of the railway guarantee for the Tullow extension line. The Grand Jury passed a Resolution directing their Solicitor to take the necessary steps for the recovery of the sum mentioned in the third paragraph.

  CONGESTED DISTRICTS BOARD (IRELAND).
  Mr. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he has received a copy of Resolutions, adopted at a meeting of the Oldcastle Board of Guardians on 6th April, unanimously calling for such an extension of the powers and functions of the Congested Districts Board as will permit that Board to purchase estates, consisting of large grass farms which could be easily subdivided into small holdings and on which tenants, whose sons and daughters are now compelled to emigrate to America, could be planted, and so relieve the poverty-stricken congested areas as well as the small towns of Ireland; and whether such powers and functions can be conferred without any further legislation; and, if so, will he inquire of the Congested Districts Board whether such a scheme could be advantageously undertaken?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I have received a copy of the Resolution referred to. The Congested Districts Board possess power to buy land and settle thereon persons resident in congested districts, but the Board have no power to improve the condition of the population outside a congested district, and no part of the Oldcastle Union is in the neighbourhood of such a district.
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  The Land Bill contains a provision for increasing the means at the disposal of the Congested Districts Board for the purchase of lands and their resale to tenants, and for purposes of migration.

  LONGFORD UNION (IRELAND).
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, if he is aware that William M'Donnell, a labourer living in the electoral division of Caldra, in the Union of Longford, put seven representations under the Labourers' Act before the Longford Board of Guardians, the last being signed by 12 labourers and lodged in December 1893, but that no cottage has since been erected for this man, who has a large family, and is compelled to live in a most insanitary house, and that, in consequence of a change of ownership, his house and that of some other labourers on the Douglas estate is about being pulled down; and, under such circumstances, will he direct the Local Government Board to order their Inspector to consider this man's representation?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The Local Government Board have been informed by the Clerk of the Longford Union that there is no truth in the statement that M'Donnell's house is to be pulled down, and the Guardians are of the opinion that the house now inhabited by him is a substantial house, in good repair, and that, therefore, another house could not be built for him.

  TUBERCULOSIS (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  MR. F. CAWLEY: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, whether, in view of the fact brought to light by the Royal Commission on Tuberculosis that so many cows suffering from tuberculosis are giving milk which is supplied to consumers, and that the milk from these cows is dangerous to the health of human beings, he is prepared to institute some system by which all cows whose milk is sold for public consumption shall be placed under compulsory inspection?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. HENRY CHAPLIN,): While the Report of the Commission of 1895, has dealt fully with the scientific aspects of the matter referred to in the Question, no Report has been made upon the administrative procedures necessary to give effect to the conclusions of the Commission. The Government have assented to the proposal that a Royal Commission should, therefore, be appointed to consider and further report upon these matters. Legislation would be necessary to enable me to order the compulsory inspection of all cows whose milk is sold for public consumption, and I think it should be postponed pending the Inquiry which has been determined on. In the meantime, I may remind the, right boa. Member that it is to be gathered from the Report that by a simple process namely, by boiling the milk—immunity can be insured to the consumer.
  DR. FARQUHARSONasked whether it was not the fact that tuberculosis could not be spread from milk unless there was some disease of the udder of the cow; whether inspection could not be made both easy and effective; and whether during the time the new Commission was reporting many lives might not be lost?
  *MR. SPEAKER: I think the hon. Member should give notice of that Question.
  MR. CHAPLINsaid he had stated that legislation would be necessary to give him the power of compulsory inspection. He had no doubt that there was a great deal in what the hon. Member said, but he could not take action without legislation; and in view of the business before the House it would be impossible this Session.

  KAFIKISTAN.
  *SIR CHARLES DILKE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, whether he will at once lay before Parliament the revised Agreement with the Ameer of Afghanistan by which the Bashgal Valley was given to the Ameer?
  SIR WILLIAM WEDDERBURN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, (1) whether he will
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  place in the Library a facsimile of the map referred to in Clause 1 of the Durand Agreement as being attached to that Agreement, and also a facsimile of the detailed map referred to in Clause 3; (2) whether he will lay upon the Table a copy of any document which sets aside the provisions of Clause 3, and transfers the Arnawai or Bashgal Valley from the British to the Ameer's sphere of influence; (3) whether he will state approximately the length and breadth of the Arnawai or Bashgal Valley; and in what other respects, if any, the Durand Agreement has been modified; and, (4) whether he will recommend the Government of India to depute Colonel Holdich, the Boundary Commissioner, or other suitable officer, to superintend the removal of those Kafirs who are being expatriated, and secure for them humane treatment?
  *LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: The maps referred to in the first Question of the hon. Baronet the Member for Banffshire are inconvenient in size, and I have no spare copies; but I will have the line traced upon another map and place it in the Library. I have here a copy of the Agreement, dated April 9th, 1895, as signed by the Commissioners and subsequently ratified by the Ameer, which I will lay upon the Table. I cannot give the information asked for in the third Question at the present stage of negotiations. In answer to the fourth Question, I can only refer the hon. Baronet to the reply given by me on the 23rd March last to the hon. Member for Darlington.
  SIR W. WEDDERBURN: IS not the valley a large one, and estimated to contain a population of about 49,000 inhabitants?
  *LORD G. HAMILTON: I do not know the dimensions of the valley, but the total population of Kafiristan at the extreme estimate is 90,000, and the Bash-gal Valley occupies quite a small portion of the country.

  VACCINATION (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  MR. J. COMPTON RICKETT: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, whether he can state when the Royal Commission on Vaccination will report; and, in the event of further delay, if he can give any advice to Boards of Guardians who are

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  not enforcing the Act pending the Report of the Royal Commission?
  MR. CHAPLIN: As to the Report of the Royal Commission on Vaccination, I can only remind the hon. Member of the replies which I have given to similar questions previously. I have availed myself, and shall continue to do so, of every opportunity presenting itself to inform Boards of Guardians that they have no legal right whatever to suspend action for the enforcement of the law as to vaccination, pending the issue of the Report of the Royal Commission.

  FISHERIES REGULATION ACT, 1888.
  MR. W. LUCAS-SHADWELL: I beg to ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether the Government will consider the desirability of amending the Fisheries Regulation Act, 1888, with the object of defraying the expenses incurred by the Committees appointed under that Act out of Imperial funds, instead of, as is now the case, out of the funds of the boroughs and counties on the sea coast?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS BEACH,): These expenses were imposed by the Act upon the local authorities without any objection at the time, and I see no reason for altering the law.

  ELECTRICAL STANDARDS.
  COLONEL MELLOR: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether the Board could offer the same facilities for testing and checking electrical standards as is given by the German Government with so much advantage to the German manufacturers of electrical apparatus?
  MR. RITCHIE: The Board of Trade have caused new denominations of standards for the measurement of electricity to be made and verified, and they now have under consideration the best method of affording facilities to manufacturers and others for comparing their instruments with these standards.

  MILITARY PAUPERS.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, whether the Return
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  which he proposes to lay upon the Table of the House of soldiers at present chargeable on the Poor Rates of unions of Great Britain and Ireland will include those in receipt of outdoor relief?
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): The Return, which is in course of preparation, was intended to comprise only soldiers who are actually inmates of workhouses; but I will endeavour to arrange that the numbers in receipt of outdoor relief shall also be given.

  RAILWAY TARIFFS (IRELAND).
  MR. W. FIELD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, (1) whether he is aware of the fact that the average railway tariffs for goods and passengers in Ireland are almost the highest in existence, and cause great dissatisfaction to the Irish commercial, agricultural, and travelling public; and, (2) whether the Government will appoint a Select Committee to examine into and report upon the feasibility and necessity of the State acquiring the Irish railways?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am not aware that the average railway tariffs in Ireland are the highest in existence, but I am well aware that in Ireland, as in England, frequent complaints are heard in the matter from the commercial, agricultural, and travelling public. The second paragraph of the Question opens up a very large question, which, I believe, has been inquired into by more than one Royal Commission. I am not prepared at present to recommend the appointment of a Select Committee to examine into and report upon the feasibility and necessity of the acquisition of Irish railways by the State.

  BOARD OF AGRICULTURE (IRELAND).
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, whether the Government intend this Session to take the necessary steps for the establishment of a Board of Agriculture in Ireland?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I replied to a precisely similar inquiry to this subject on Friday last.

  PUBLIC VACCINATORS.
  MR. THOMAS BAYLEY: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, what is the actual amount of the bonuses paid to public vaccinators on inspection of their work during the year 1894, the amount in question being stated on page 154 of the last Report of the Board as £14,286 8s., and on page 448 as £12,171 9s.?
  MR. CHAPLIN: The sum paid to public vaccinators in the year 1894 was £12,171, as stated in the table giving detailed particulars of the payments. I regret that there was an inaccuracy in the total of that table as given on page 154 of the Report.

  LABOURERS' COTTAGES (COUNTY DONEGAL).
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, if he can state what progress has been made in each of the electoral divisions of the Stranorlar and Strabane Unions, within the county of Donegal, in the erection of the labourers' cottages already sanctioned; and, what is the cause of the delay which has taken place?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: A Provisional Order of the Local Government Board, authorising the erection of three cottages in the Convoy electoral division of the Stranorlar Union, was confirmed by the Privy Council in January last. Arbitration proceedings are now pending, and until the arbitrator makes his award possession of the lands cannot be taken. In the Strabane Union the erection of 20 cottages has been authorised by two Provisional Orders in the electoral divisions of Urney East, Urney West, Feddyglass, and Cloghard. One of these Orders is not yet absolute, so that no steps can at present be taken to build the cottages authorised by it, and as regards the other Order, it appears that the title of the persons interested in the lands is now being investigated with a view to the payment of compensation and the acceptance of tenders for the erection of the cottages.
  MR. ARTHUR O'CONNOR: What period has elapsed since the confirmation of the Order to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I am not able to inform the hon. Member as to the period that has elapsed. I shall be obliged to make further inquiry to satisfy him on that point.

  MILITARY REINFORCEMENTS FOR THE CAPE.
  MAJOR JAMESON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies—(1) whether he requested the High Commissioner at the Cape of Good Hope to inform the President of the Transvaal that the Imperial Government had decided to send out reinforcements to the Cape; and (2), if such is the case, will he state what precedent there is for the Imperial Government informing a Foreign Power of their intentions?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOB THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): The answer to the first Question is in the affirmative. I believe there are precedents, but I have not had time to verify them. There have been of late so many instances in which even official statements have been magnified or distorted in South Africa, that Her Majesty's Government thought it expedient, in order to present misapprehension, to publish at Cape Town the exact nature of the movement which they had decided to carry out, and at the same time to inform the President of the South African Republic of their intentions. ["Hear, hear!"]
  *SIR ELLIS ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: Have the Boer Government informed Her Majesty's Government of the massing of a considerable Boer force near Mafeking; and, if so, have they given any explanation with regard to it?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That does not arise out of this Question.
  *SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I understood the hon. Member to ask whether Her Majesty's Government——["Order, order!"]
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member for Clare asked the Question on the Paper. The Question of the hon. Member does not arise nut of the Question on the Paper.
  *SIR K. ASHMEAD - BARTLETT: Very well, Sir, I will give notice for to- morrow.

  MATABELELAND.
  MAJOR JAMESON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, if he is able to inform the House who supplied the Matabele with ammunition and rifles?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I have to refer the hon. and gallant Member to the answer which I gave to a similar Question asked by the senior Member for Northampton on the 17th instant.

  SOUTH AFRICAN REPUBLIC (IMPOR- TATION OF ARMS).
  *SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether his attention has been called to the reports that a large quantity of cannon, Maxims, and ammunition are being imported into the Transvaal, and that many foreign mercenaries also are being imported; and, if so, whether Her Majesty's Government have asked for an explanation from the Boer Government of these warlike preparations?
  Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN: My attention has been called to the importation of munitions of war into the South African Republic; but I should not be justified in interfering unless I had evidence to show that these preparations were intended for other than defensive purposes. The Consul-General of the South African Republic has assured me most positively that his Government is not introducing foreign mercenaries; but many of the emigrants to the Transvaal from foreign countries are no doubt persons who, under a conscription, have had a military training.
  *SIR E. ASHMEAD - BARTLETTasked whether the right hon. Gentleman had received any report from Her Majesty's Agent in Pretoria upon the importation of arms and munitions of war by the Boer Government, and whether he would inquire of Her Majesty's Agent in Pretoria as to the number of foreign immigrants having a military training who had entered the Transvaal in the last three months?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: We have made all possible inquiries into both these matters, and I believe we possess all the information that is to be obtained with respect to them.
  MR. W. ALLENasked whether the right hon. Gentleman had received any fresh information from President Kruger with respect to the invitation which had been sent to him?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: No, Sir.

  LICENSING LAWS (ROYAL COMMISSION).
  MR. J. L. CAREW: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether, having regard to the dissatisfaction which exists as to the Irish representation on the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the state of the Licensing Laws in Great Britain and Ireland, and to the fact that no demand for such Inquiry has been made by any Irish body, licensed or temperance, he will, before giving the terms of the reference, dismiss from the scope of the Inquiry the Irish Licensed Trade?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,): The names were announced in the House on Tuesday, March 31, and have been approved by Her Majesty. I am sure that the hon. Member does not wish me to repeat them?
  MR. M. MCCARTAN: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider the desirableness of having on the Royal Commission some gentlemen from Ireland who are familiar with the work of the retail trade?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The hon. Member is aware that the Commission consists only of 24 persons. I know that there has been a certain desire that more representation of Ireland should be on it. Almost every other interest desires to have representation, and if all the wishes were fulfilled evidently the Commission would reach a size which would make it perfectly unworkable. I am afraid it would not be possible to make any alteration now.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Could not the right hon. Gentleman make an addition when the Commission deals with the Irish part of the Question, so that the trade might have a representation?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: It is not for me to say how the Commission will conduct their business, but I imagine they will take evidence,

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  and in respect of the Irish branch of the Question I cannot doubt that they will endeavour to obtain the fullest information.
  In answer to MR. MCCARTAN,
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid: It would not be in our power to give directions to the Commission; but, of course, it is open to any hon. Gentleman to make private representations to the Commission, and if those representations are reasonable they will receive consideration, I have no doubt.

  AGRICULTURAL LAND RATING BILL.
  MR. T. R. BUCHANAN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury, whether, before he takes the Second Reading of the Agricultural Land Rating Bill, the Government will introduce and circulate the corresponding Measures for Scotland and Ireland, in order that the House may be made acquainted with the entire proposals of the Government on the subject.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The Government, of course, are anxious to forward as soon as they can the Measures for Scotland and Ireland, corresponding to the Agricultural Land Rating Bill, but the hon. Member is well aware that there are other large and important Government Measures under consideration, and in those circumstances I cannot name a day for the introduction of the Bills referred to by the hon. Member.

  CHRIST CHURCH SCHOOLS (BELFAST.)
  MR. CAREW: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury (1) whether his attention has been called to an appeal circulated by the Rev. Dr. Kane in connection with the opening of the, Christ Church Schools, Belfast, in which he calls for support in commemoration of the struggle for the Constitution by the men of the eighties against the forces of sedition and anarchy; and, (2) whether the school in question receives any support from public money?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: My attention has been called to the appeal referred to in the first paragraph, and I understand that the schools in question
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  are National Schools. The matter, I believe, is now under the consideration of the Commissioners of National Education.
  MR. W. JOHNSTONasked whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware that Her Majesty the Queen had given her consent to the proposal that the building should be called the Queen Victoria Schools and Lecture Hall?
  *MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Dr. Kane made use of Her Majesty's name in. a very inflammatory advertisement, and whether it was with Her Majesty's knowledge and consent her name was so used to stir up angry feelings amongst Her Majesty's Irish subjects?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I believe it is a fact that these schools have been called after Her Majesty.

  BUDGET RESOLUTION'S.
  MR. T. LOUGHasked whether the discussion on the Budget Resolutions on Thursday would be of a general character?
  THE FTRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The Budget Resolutions are to be the first Order on Thursday, and on the third Resolution it will be possible to raise, a general discussion.
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTONasked whether it would not be more convenient to have a discussion on the Second Reading of the Budget Bill than on the Resolutions.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: It would, no doubt, be more convenient to do that, but it is competent to hon. Members to raise the discussion on the third Resolution.
  MR. LOUGHobserved that there was an understanding that there should be a general discussion on Thursday.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I have been in communication with the Leader of the Opposition upon this subject, and what my right hon. Friend has said meets with his approval. The first Resolution is a small one relating to stamps, and the second relates to the Income Tax. The third Resolution is of a general character relating to possible amendments of the Customs and Inland Revenue law, and on that there can be a general discussion.

  CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES (SCOTLAND).
  MR. J. H. DALZIELasked whether the Vote for the salary of the Secretary for Scotland would be brought on first on Friday.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: We shall begin with Class 2, taking the Votes in their order.

  RELEASE OF CONVICT JAMES MOREY.
  MR. W. REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether the convict James Morey has been released on account of ill health?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: Yes, Sir, the order has been signed for the release of the convict James Morey, and I expect that in all probability it has been acted on.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  MILITARY MANŒUVRES BILL.
  Considered in Committee—
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER in the Chair.]
  Progress, Clause 1 (14th April),—

  APPLICATION OF ACT BY ORDER IN COUNCIL.
  (1) This Act shall, so far as relates to the passing over and occupation of land, be in force within such limits, and during such period, as Her Majesty in Council may by Order prescribe, and the limits and period so prescribed are in this Act referred to as the prescribed limits and the prescribed period.
  (2) Not less than three months before the commencement of the period proposed to be prescribed, a draft of the proposed Order shall be sent to the County Council of every administrative county wholly or partly within the limits proposed to be prescribed, and public notice of the proposal to make the Order shall be given in such manner as Her Majesty in Council may direct."
  (3.) If within thirty days after the publication of the notice aforesaid any petition is presented to the County Council of any of the counties affected by the proposed Order against the proposal to make the Order, the draft Order shall be laid before each House of Parliament for not less than thirty days on which that House is sitting, and if either House, before the expiration of thirty days during which the draft
  1380
  has been laid before it, presents an Address to Her Majesty against the draft, no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, but without prejudice to the making of any new draft Order.
  (4.) If no such petition is presented, or having been presented is withdrawn, before the expiration of the thirty days first aforesaid, or if on the draft of the Order being laid before Parliament no Address adverse thereto is presented, Her Majesty in Council may make the Order.
  Amendment proposed, to leave out the words from the word "and" in subsection (3) to the end of the sub-section, and to insert, instead thereof, the words—
  " No such order shall be made until a Resolution of each House of Parliament has been passed approving of the draft Order:"—(Mr. Luttrell:)—
  Question proposed,
  " That the words from the word 'and' to the end of Sub-section (3) stand part of the Clause."
  Debate resumed.
  MR. H. C. F. LUTTRELLargued that if an Amendment of this kind were not agreed to it would be next to impossible for Members of Parliament to express adequately the opinions of their constituencies upon draft Orders that might be laid upon the Table of the House. The only remedy they would have would be to move an Address to Her Majesty against a draft Order and such Motions could not be made until after midnight. That placed hon. Members in a great difficulty. Eight or ten years ago there was a Manœuvres Bill under which the military authorities were anxious to have manœuvres at Dartmoor. It was found possible to introduce a clause in that Bill, preserving the water rights of Plymouth and Devonport. Without opportunities for adequate discussion it would not be possible for hon. Members to safeguard in the future the interests of their constituencies in the same way.
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,)said, that the view of the Government was that this Amendment was unnecessary, because there would be ample opportunities of challenging a draft Order. Objection could be taken under the Bill in the 30 days

  1381
  during which the draft Order would lie on the Table of the House, and there would be other opportunities before manœuvres could possibly take place of challenging the policy of the Government with regard to them. Such opportunities would arise in the Estimates and Parliament would have no difficulty in retaining its control over the proposals of the authorities. The experience of the authorities was not favourable to Dartmoor as the scene of manœuvres, and there was no suggestion that there would be any manœuvres there in the future. The question raised by the hon. Member had already been decided on the Second Reading and he trusted that the Amendment would not be pressed.
  MR. LUTTRELLcould not admit that there had been a Division on this Question at the stage of Second Reading. There was a difference between passing a Provisional Order and passing a Resolution. He was told in the Second Reading that procedure by Provisional Order would involve a Bill. What he proposed now was procedure by Resolution, which presented no difficulty. There was a precedent for such a Resolution. There was a close analogy in the treatment of Post Office contracts under Standing Orders 63, 64, and 65. Standing Order 63 provided that in all contracts extending over a period of years, making a public charge actual or prospective for the conveyance of mails by sea, there should be inserted a condition that the contract should not be binding until it was approved by a Resolution of the House. He now asked that an Order under this Bill should not be passed until it had been approved by a Resolution of the House. He did not believe that any Government would make attempts which would be inconsistent with public rights, but he did ask that if there were any special interests to be considered, those interests might be provided for under the Order by which the land was taken.
  SIR HENRY CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid that he had expressed his sympathy with the object of his hon. Friend on the Second Reading of the Bill. The provision made in the Bill to secure opportunities of being heard to those interested in the localities affected was illusory. The
  1382
  Order was to lie on the Table for a certain time subject to the possibility of an Address being moved. If an Address was moved, the House was asked to discuss it after 12 o'clock at night. In the case of a question of some educational charity in which the Government had no strong interest, there was, at all events, a probability that both sides of the House would have full justice done to them; but when it was a question of a proposal of the Government to apply arbitrary powers to a particular locality, the opponents of it would have to face the whole power of the Government, and, at that time of night a Government could do what they liked. He wished some way could be found of giving a better opportunity of being heard to that locality. The hon. Gentleman opposite said there were many opportunities for discussing and criticising the policy of the Government, in fact that there had already been five opportunities this Session. But who at this moment knew where the manœuvres were to be held this year. Without saying that his hon. Friend had invented a perfect way, it appeared to him that a Resolution, if there was any precedent for it—and his hon. Friend seemed to have found one—was a simple and at the same time a definite means of enabling the locality to be heard. That was what was wanted, and he thought it was reasonable, seeing that the House was now laying down a general code, which might be regarded in some respects as oppressive. His belief was that in the vast majority of cases people would only be too glad to have the manœuvres in their neighbour hood, but there might be circumstances affecting the locality which rendered it undesirable that manœuvres should be held in it, and he thought it was only right that while passing this general code, the House should give the localities better opportunities than the Bill afforded them, of having their case heard.
  MR. EDWARD MORTONdid not think the Government were treating the Opposition quite rightly over this Bill. The Bill was one of great importance, giving large powers to future Governments, and certain safeguards against abuse of those powers were asked for. Very strong reasons

  1383
  had been given why the proposal of his hon. Friend should be adopted, but the Government had not given a single reason to the contrary.
  MR. T. LOUGHthought that no case had been made out for resisting the reasonable proposal of his hon. Friend. The Bill was very much confused by the Amendments of which the right hon. Gentleman had himself given notice, and it was really very hard to understand it. His hon. Friend had clearly explained that there could be no difficulty in getting a Resolution through. He thought the protection in the Bill was really very illusory, and it seemed to him that very simple words were suggested to take its place. He did not imagine that a Resolution of the kind would be discussed at any length.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid, he should be most anxious to adopt any recommendations coming from the right hon. Gentleman opposite. The Government were anxious, if possible to give Parliament every proper control over their proposals. They were appointing a local Consultative Commission, and they also proposed to accept the Amendment which stood in the name of the hon. Member for Tavistock in Clause 5, page 3, line 18, which, beyond the procedure in the Bill, would give to every locality an opportunity of appealing against the decision of the local Consultative Commission.
  SIR J. T. BRUNNERasked whether the Consultative Commission would meet on the spot, and would avoid putting the commoners and other inhabitants to expense in putting their objections before them.
  *MR. BRODRICK: Certainly, they will meet on the spot.
  MR. LUTTRELLsaid he was very glad to hear that the Government were going to accept his Amendment to Clause 5. That would secure that public opinion should be adequately represented on the spot, and he had put down the Amendment as to the Resolution in order that local opinion might be adequately expressed in the House of Commons.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 16; Noes, 84.—(Division List, No. 105.)
  Other verbal Amendments having been agreed to,
  Clause 1, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 2,—

  REGULATIONS AS TO THE FORCES.— POWER OF FORCES TO PASS OVER AND OCCUPY LAND.
  Within the prescribed limits and during the prescribed period, the forces as defined by this Act may—

  (a) with their arms, munitions of war, and stores, pass over, and execute military manœuvres on, any unenclosed and any authorised enclosed land, whether public or private; and

  (b) encamp on any unenclosed land or authorised enclosed land; and

  (e) dig trenches and throw up temporary field works on any unenclosed land or authorised enclosed land for the purpose of any encampment and for military exercises; and

  (d) supply themselves with water from any authorised sources of water, and, for the purpose of obtaining such supply, dam up any running water; and

  (e) use any private or occupation roads; and

  (f) do all such other acts and things as may be required.

  MR. LUTTRELL MR. LUTTRELL moved several verbal Amendments, which were agreed to.
  *MR. BRODRICK*MR. BRODRICK moved to insert at the end of the sub-section the following provision:—
  "Provided that the officer in command of the forces shall cause all lands used under this section to be restored as soon as and as far as practicable to their previous condition, and shall take care that there is no interference with earthworks, ruins, or other remains of antiquarian or historic interest."
  MR. LUTTRELLthought that the words of the hon. Gentleman did not cover the whole object he had in view, because it did not include valuable and ornamental timber. Under this proviso protection was not given to trees, unless old trees were considered to be objects of antiquarian interest. He therefore would propose, after the word "with" in the Amendment, to insert "valuable or ornamental timber," etc.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid that this would be to imply that ordinary timber could be interfered with and cut down

  1385
  Neither valuable nor ordinary timber would be interfered with.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLESpointed out that the forces were authorised not merely to deal with land, but to dam streams.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid, land included land covered by water.
  MR. LUTTRELLsaid, he was willing to withdraw his Amendment after the assurance of his hon. Friend.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Clause 2, as amended agreed to.
  Clause 3,—

  LANDS CLOSED AGAINST PASSAGE OF FORCES.
  "Nothing in this Act shall empower the forces to enter upon or interfere with (except for the purpose of using authorised roads) any dwelling-house, farmyard, garden, orchard, pleasure ground, nursery ground, or park, or any premises enclosed within the curtilage of or attached to any dwelling-house, or any enclosed wood or plantation, or any other enclosed land, except such other enclosed lands as may he declared to be lands on which the forces arcs authorised to enter, in this Act referred to as authorised enclosed lands."
  MR. LUTTRELL MR. LUTTRELL moved to insert after "roads" the words, "any common land which is the subject of any Act of Parliament, Scheme, or Provisional Order, having for its object the preservation and protection of such common land or." These commons were generally adjoining large towns, and, therefore, he proposed that they should safeguard the interests of the citizens of these towns.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid, they had put into the Bill every kind of provision they could to protect commoners and owners, but this Amendment which have the effect of keeping large tracts of country entirely outside the possible operation of the Bill, and it would be impossible for the local Committee to go over it.
  MR. LUTTRELLsaid, he was quite willing to withdraw the Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. LUTTRELL MR. LUTTRELL moved to omit the words "or park."
  *MR. BRODRICKaccepted the Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. LUTTRELL MR. LUTTRELL moved to insert after "dwelling house," "or any lands bearing roots or standing crops." In one, and he thought in all of the Bills for these manœuvres, there was this safeguard that the interests of agriculture, might not be interfered with. They heard a good deal about the depressed state of agriculture, which they understood the Government were anxious to relieve.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid, he could not accept the Amendment. There might be a tongue of land of this description running out into the middle of the field of operations, and if this were tabooed it would utterly spoil the manœuvres. There was not the slightest difficulty in assessing damages to crops, and compensation would be paid. In some cases where the crops were damaged, the farmers having received compensation earnestly wished that the forces should come a second time. The commanding officers of the forces had the strongest reasons for not damaging the crops.
  MR. J. W. LOGAN, thought it was a new way of relieving agriculture to allow armed forces to march over standing crops.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid, the manœuvres would be held too late in the year to pass over standing crops.
  MR. LOGANsaid, that was an excellent reason for accepting the Amendment, and he should support his hon. Friend.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid, the Government would have to pay for the damage, and they were thus making a permanent Bill for the taxpayer to pay.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid", this was a matter of experience. As a matter of fact, last year certain owners and occupiers had consented to allow troops to go over their land.
  MR. LUTTRELLsuggested that the Government should accept "standing crops" without the land "bearing roots." He owned that there was not the same amount of damage done in both cases.
  Amendment negatived.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 4,—

  COMPENSATION FOR DAMAGE DONE BY FORCES.
  Full compensation shall be made, out of money to be provided by Parliament, for any damage that may be caused to any lands within the prescribed limits by or in consequence of the forces, or strangers accompanying the forces, passing over or occupying the lands, and the amount of compensation payable to any person entitled to compensation shall, if disputed, in each case of damage be determined as in this Act mentioned; but no person belonging to the forces shall be liable to any action, indictment, or other legal proceeding in respect of any trespass committed by him upon, or damage done to, land within the prescribed limits.
  MR. E. H. HULSEproposed to add after "any lands" the words,—
  " And for any disturbance of any rights of common, of pasturage, pannage, or turbary, or other rights of common, and for the payment or loss incurred by the owners or licensees on account of the removal or disturbance of their commonable animals during the prescribed period."
  *MR. BRODRICKexplained that this and other Amendments were covered by Amendments which it was intended that he should move.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. D. LLOYD-GEORGEproposed an Amendment to protect water supplied by any water company, and to provide compensation where necessary.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid this was dealt with in the Interpretation Clause.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: It is not a question of damming up streams.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsupported the Amendment.
  *THE CHAIRMANruled that the Amendment had better be dealt with in the Definition Clause.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *MR. BRODRICK*MR. BRODRICK moved to insert at the end of the clause:—
  "The compensation may include such compensation, if any, as the compensation officer or Court of Arbitration, as the case may be, shall award to any County Council, District Council, or other road authority for damage by reason of excessive weight or extraordinary traffic caused
  1388
  by the passage of the forces or munitions of war to any highway for the repair of which that authority is responsible."
  Amendment agreed to.
  Clause 5,—

  APPOINTMENT AND HOURS OF CONSULTA- TIVE COMMISSION.
  (1.) Whenever an Order in Council is made under this Act, a consultative Commission shall be formed consisting of the Lords Lieutenants of the counties wholly or partly within the prescribed limits, of two persons appointed by each such Lord Lieutenant, and of two persons appointed by the County Councils of each of those counties, and of such other persons, if any, as may be appointed by the Secretary of State. If any such Lord Lieutenant is unable or unwilling to act, the Secretary of State may appoint a person to act in his place, and if any person appointed by the County Council dies, resigns, or is unable or unwilling to act, the County Council may appoint a person to act in his place.
  (2.) The Commission may make such rules as they think fit with respect to the places and times of meeting, the quorum at meetings, and their mode of procedure.
  (3.) Every question shall be decided by a majority of the votes of the members of the Commission voting on that question.
  (4.) The officer in command of the forces, and the consultative Commission, may by order authorise anything by this Act directed or permitted to be authorised, and in particular declare what enclosed lands, roads, or sources of water are to be deemed to be authorised enclosed lands, authorised roads, or authorised sources of water for all or any of the purposes of this Act.
  (5.) The said officer and Commission may also by order make regulations with respect to the protection of cattle and sheep by securing them in folds or farmyards, and with respect to any other matter which they may deem essential for the purpose of preventing damage to property and for more efficiently carrying into effect the purposes of this Act.
  (6.) Public notice shall be given in such manner as may be directed by the consultative Commission, of any regulation made in pursuance of this Act for the protection of any cattle, sheep, or other property, and any person who neglects to comply with any regulations so made in relation to his property shall not be entitled to claim compensation in respect of any damage caused to the property in consequence of his having been guilty of the neglect.
  (7.) The consultative Commission may delegate any of the powers given to them by this Act to any committee or committees consisting of two or more of their number, and any such committee or committees shall during the prescribed period attend upon and he in communication with the officer commanding the forces or any officer deputed by him.
  (8.) Any powers by this Act given to the consultative Commission and the officer in command of the forces of making any Order, or doing any other thing may be exercised on behalf of the Commission, by any member of the Commission to whom those powers may be delegated by the Commission, and on behalf of the officer in command of the forces by any officer deputed by him for the purpose; and for the purpose of facilitating the exercise of the powers conferred by this Act on the Commission and officer in command, the Commission and officer shall make arrangements for securing the attendance of a sufficient number of members of the Commission at such places and with such bodies of troops as may be agreed upon, with the view of the members so in attendance acting for the purposes of this section in conjunction with the officer in command of the forces or any officers deputed by him.
  (9.) Any Order made in pursuance of this section in relation to lands or any local matter may describe the lands or matter by reference to a map, or in any other convenient manner.
  (10.) Any Order declaring what enclosed lands, roads, or sources of water are to be deemed authorised enclosed lands, roads, or sources, may either describe the lands, roads, or sources so authorised, or may declare all the enclosed lands, roads, or sources within the prescribed limits, or within any particular area with the specified exceptions, to be authorised enclosed lands, roads, or sources, and the purposes for which they are so authorised.
  (11.) Any Order made in pursuance of this section may be rescinded or altered.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid there was a series of amendments which had been placed on the Paper, all of which would be met by amendments he intended to propose. The desire of the Government was to have a Commission representing all those interested in land. There was no desire to have a Commission on which there should be a majority of any particular class. As the Clause stood, the Lord Lieutenant of the county would be a member and would nominate two other members. They had taken the Lord Lieutenant, as he was almost always a large landowner, and generally a large farmer, who held an undoubted position in the county, which enabled him to use his influence for the protection of the various local interests. The elective element consisted of two county councillors, and the Secretary of State had power to add others to represent these interests. What was now proposed, in lieu of this, was that, in addition to the Lord Lieutenant, there would be two elected members of the County Council beside the Chairman of the
  1390
  Council; and instead of the Secretary of State having unlimited power of appointment, he proposed to accept an amendment of the hon. Member for Somerset, which would provide that the power of appointment should not be more than one-half of the whole consultative Commission.
  MR. LUTTRELLthought it would have been better if these alterations had been in print; but so far as he understood them, he had no objection at all. He should like to point out that the Lord Lieutenant was not one who could speak the opinions of a locality. ["Oh!"] He might be able to speak them wrongly. He begged to move, after "consisting" in sub-section (1), to leave out, "of the Lords Lieutenant of the counties wholly or partly within the prescribed limits, of two persons appointed by each such Lord Lieutenant." The Lord Lieutenant would not be able so well to express the opinion of the locality as the Councillors, who were the representatives of the people. They must not lose sight of the fact that, the Lord Lieutenant was not a representative. He could do just what he pleased. He was far removed from local opinion, and there was no one to call him to book. The Lord Lieutenant was a semi-military appointment, he believed. Surely there was enough of the military element to be nominated by the Secretary of State for War, and besides that they were to have a half military man in the Lord Lieutenant. He attached much greater importance to the opinions of the County Councillors than he did to the opinions of the Lord Lieutenant, for they would, he believed, be able to more adequately express the views of the locality.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid, that he had another Amendment to introduce in consequence of the statement he had made, beginning at the word "of" in line 40, and he would submit that the question should be put to leave out all the words from "consisting," in line 38, to the word "limits" in line 40.
  *THE CHAIRMANput the question in the form suggested by Mr. Brodrick.
  MR. E. STRACHEYsaid, he hoped his hon. Friend would not press his objection, because he thought the Under Secretary had given them a good deal. He had struck out the two

  1391
  members of the Commission to be nominated by the Lord Lieutenant, and, though he was strongly against the Lord Lieutenant having such a power of nomination, he was inclined to think there was no very great objection to include the Lord Lieutenant, considering that the Under Secretary had fairly met them by putting on the Chairman of the County Council as a make-weight to the Lord Lieutenant, if they cared to look at it from that point of view. He thought the Committee ought to look at this matter dispassionately, and see that every interest was represented. Undoubtedly the Lord Lieutenant would represent an interest which the Chairman of the County Council would not represent. He thought the Under Secretary had also made them a large and important concession when he expressed his willingness to accept, practically, his Amendment. They had got all they had asked for with the exception of the exclusion of the Lord Lieutenant, and that being so, they could really allow the Lord Lieutenant to remain as a member of the Commission to represent a distinct interest.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYsaid, the hon. Member for Devonshire was labouring under what he might call an absolutely erroneous impression. He seemed to think that the influence and weight of the Lord Lieutenant would be thrown in the scale in favour of the military view, as against the rural or district needs of the county concerned. He ventured to think that exactly the contrary would be the case, and that, so far as the predisposition of the Lord Lieutenant might be supposed to exist, it would be absolutely in favour of the locality for which he was Lord Lieutenant. He was perfectly certain that, taking the rural districts all through, they would be delighted to see the Lord Lieutenant a member of the Commission, because they would know that rural affairs were quite safe in his hands.
  MR. J. H. DALZIELsaid, he presumed that the Lord Lieutenant was put on the Commission to represent the landed interest in any particular locality. If there was a case for the Lord Lieutenant to be put on the Commission, surely the case was far
  1392
  stronger with regard to the tenant-farmers. It was not the landed proprietor who was going to suffer for any damage by these manœuvres, and he thought the Under Secretary ought to go a little further and put a representative of the tenant-farmers of the neigh-bourhood on the Commission. He thought the hon. Gentleman had gone some distance in the direction asked by some of his hon. Friends, but he rose principally to ask him with regard to the position where a town was concerned. Take his own district in Scotland. The military operations would be carried on in close proximity to a particular town, where there was probably better land than there would be some distance away. Would the hon. Gentleman consider, before the Report stage, whether or not it would be advisable to have the local authority represented on this Commission, because it seemed to him that in some cases, the local Town Council would be equally as much concerned in protecting the rights of the inhabitants as any County Council. He would also ask him whether he had taken into account the possibility of the Lord Lieutenant not being in the country at the time these operations were carried on? Some difficulty might arise, in such a case, if the hon. Gentleman did not introduce some provision for the Deputy Lieutenant having the power of the Lord Lieutenant.
  MR. HENRY LABOUCHEREsaid, the only person who could be deemed to be a representative was one who was elected to represent a certain interest. Who did the Lord Lieutenant represent? The Lord Lieutenant was a great nobleman, who was selected because he was a great nobleman and a great proprietor. In a non-elected sense, he might be supposed to represent the large proprietors, but the large proprietors were not affected or touched by this Bill, and surely it was more reasonable to put on a Committee of this sort the Chairman of a County Council, and the County Councillors rather than the Lord Lieutenant, who was appointed very often through Court influence, for Party reasons, or for other such cause, and who very often did not reside frequently in the county

  1393
  of which he was supposed to be Lord Lieutenant. They knew the County Councillors would be there, and as they were the choice of the inhabitants, the tenant-farmers and others of the county, it was better to depend upon them rather than to add to the Committee the Lord Lieutenant.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid, his hon. Friends were anxious that the representative element should be in a majority on this Commission. If the hon. Gentleman opposite could see his way to define and limit the number to be nominated by the Secretary of State, so as to give the majority to the members of the representative bodies in the locality, they might get over the difficulty.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid, he proposed to amend the Amendment of the hon. Member for South Somerset, so as to give the Secretary of State a distinctly less number than half the Commission.
  MR. EDWARD MORTONsaid, as he understood the matter there would be four unelectcd members and three elected members on the Commission.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid, that if the Committee limited them too much they would be obliged to leave out some of the bodies and interests who had already communicated with them, and asked them to see that they were represented specially.
  SIR H. CAMPBELL - BANNER-MANsaid, a good deal depended upon whom the persons were who would be nominated by the Secretary of State. There was great jealousy on the part of some of his hon. Friends of military interference. Some hon. Members who had seen a Lord Lieutenant in full panoply conceived him to be a great military authority. [Laughter.] He was not surprised at that, because he always regarded with considerable awe the appearance even of a Deputy Lieutenant. [Laughter.] Practically the Lord Lieutenant would represent the landowning class and the local interests generally of the county, but he would have with him the Chairman and two members of the County Council, as now proposed by the Under Secretary, so that the local members of the Commission would be a majority of the representative character desired by his hon.
  1394
  Friends. The concession made by the Under Secretary was a very great one, and he thought it ought to satisfy his hon. Friends. But then they were face to face with the mysterious personages who might be put on by the Secretary of State, and who, for some malign purpose of his own, might put on nothing short of Major-Generals or formidable people of that kind. He understood that that was not the intention, but that it was the intention to get the Secretary of State, in the interests of the public and not of the Army, to put on representatives of outside or peculiar interests in the district who might otherwise suffer by not being represented. If this could be represented in any way, in order that they might have a little more definite characterisation of the members whom the Secretary of State would put on, that might completely remove the objections of his hon. Friends. He thought it was desirable the Secretary of State should have the power of putting on representatives of the commoners or classes of that sort. They must remember that the Secretary of State was not only a person at the head of Army Administration, but he was also a Minister sitting in that House, and he could have awkward questions put to him if he put on the Commission undesirable members who were imported for the real purpose of taking the military view of the questions submitted to him.
  MR. WARNERsaid, what was wanted was to have the tenant-farmers represented in some way.
  *MR. BRODRICKsubmitted that the best way of meeting the point would be to add the following words after "Secretary of State" in line 3, page 3, "as being necessary in his opinion to represent the local interests affected."
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn; words inserted after "Secretary of State "—" as being necessary in his opinion to represent the local interests affected."
  Several consequential Amendments having been agreed to.
  MR. HULSE MR. HULSE moved after "County Councils of each of those counties," to insert, "and in the case of the New

  1395
  Forest the official Verderer and two persons appointed by the Court of Verderers."
  *MR. BRODRICKagreed to the principle of special representation in the case of the New Forest, but thought the representation asked for was too large.
  MR. WARNERthought the New Forest was a most proper place for military manœuvres, but that was no reason why they should have extra protection besides that which they would get from the Secretary of State.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid, the New Forest stood in very special conditions, and it had a special Act of Parliament for its protection. The House of Commons would do well to follow the usual practice by giving it protection in this Bill also. He would accept the words "two persons appointed by the Court of Verderers," leaving out the official Verderer.
  Amendment, as thus amended, agreed to.
  MR. STRACHEY MR. STRACHEY moved, in the same sub-section, to leave out "Secretary of State" and to insert "County Council." He objected to the Secretary of State being allowed to appoint someone in place of the Lord Lieutenant if he was unable or unwilling to act. The Lord Lieutenant represented, in a way, the interests of the county, and if he was unable or unwilling to act it should be, not the representative of central Government, but the County Council which should take his place.
  MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSsaid, there were counties which might be affected where the County Council was entirely urban, and any nomination they might make might not be likely to give satisfaction to the rural districts. For that reason the words in the Bill should be maintained.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid, that seemed to be taking it out of the hands of the local authority.
  *MR. BRODRIOKassured the Committte that this case had been most carefully considered. There were counties which it would be invidious to name, and which would be scheduled under this Bill, where all the officers and everybody who took a prominent part in
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  the County Council was an urban person, and their nomination would not command the confidence of the farmers.
  MR. LUTTRELLsuggested that there might be a provision that if there were an urban County Council, there the Secretary of State might have power, but that generally speaking the County Councils would be the body to make the appointment in the circumstances contemplated by the clause.
  MR. LOGANsuggested that if it was thought the County Council did not represent the rural interest, words should be accepted providing that the Secretary of State might appoint a person "being a tenant-farmer."
  SIR H. CAMPBELL-BANNER-MANsaid, that the point was a small one. He did not see the necessity of the sentence at all as given in the clause. Why should the Committee contemplate the Lord Lieutenant being unwilling to undertake this duty? If he was unable, then the Secretary of State should appoint someone from among outside members who would represent local interests.
  Question put:—
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 212; Noes, 121.—(Division List, No. 106.)
  MR. STRACHEY MR. STRACHEY moved to leave out "Chairman of County Council" and to insert "Lord Lieutenant" as the head of the Consultative Commission referred to in the clause.
  MR. LOGANsaid the Government professed to be anxious to safeguard the interests of the tenant farmers, and, as they would chiefly be concerned, he suggested that a tenant farmer should be appointed.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid the reason the Lord Lieutenant was suggested was that it was thought he would best represent the general interests of the county. A tenant farmer might in some cases be appointed, but not as a general rule.
  MR. WARNERurged that this was a matter in which the Government might meet his hon. Friend.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid he would insert words providing that the head of the Commission should be a resident owner or occupier of land in the county.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. LUTTRELL MR. LUTTRELL moved to insert at the end of the clause:—
  "The draft of every Order declaring what i lands, roads, or sources of water are to he i deemed authorised lands, roads, or sources shall he deposited for public inspection during at least two weeks at the office of every district council within the prescribed limits, and notice of such deposit shall he advertised for two successive weeks in at least two newspapers circulating in each county, wholly or partly within the prescribed limits, and such notice shall state in what manner objections to the said draft Order may he made. The said officer and Commission shall hold at least one public meeting to hear all objections which may be made to the draft Order, and shall give due consideration to all objections so made, and revise and settle the draft Order with due regard thereto."
  *MR. BRODRICKaccepted the Amendment subject to verbal alteration.
  Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
  Other consequential Amendments agreed to.
  On the question that Clause 5 as amended, stand part of the Bill,
  MR. HERBERT LEWISdesired to have some information as to Sub-section 11, which provided that "any Order made in pursuance of this section may be rescinded or altered." He should like to know to what extent that provision was likely to be made use of, and whether the interests of the localities were safeguarded?
  *MR. BRODRICKexplained that it was quite possible an Order might be made which would not be required to be voted upon, and this provision would enable it at once to be rescinded.
  MR. LEWISquite agreed so far as the rescission was concerned, but his point was rather as to the operation of the provision. It seemed to give extensive powers so as to admit of the alteration of the clause to any extent.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER,)explained that this was a very common sub-section to insert, and would not interfere with the rights of any persons to compensation.
  MR. LEWISsuggested that words should be inserted providing that "any alteration made in pursuance of this sub-section shall be subject to the conditions upon which the original Order was framed."
  THE ATTORNEY - GENERALdid not think the words suggested necessary, but if the hon. Gentleman thought they were and would put them on the Paper, they should be considered between this and the Report stage.
  MR. LLOYD - GEORGEthought that some such words as his hon. Friend had indicated were necessary in the protection of any interest that might be affected by orders of this character
  Clause 6,—

  MODE OF DETERMINING THE COMPENSA- TION PAYABLE IN RESPECT OF DAMAGE BY PASSAGE OF FORCES.
  (1.) The Board of Agriculture shall, with the concurrence of the Treasury, appoint a fit person, in this Act called the compensation officer, whose duty it shall be, immediately the forces have ceased to occupy or pass over any part of the land within the prescribed limits, to ascertain the damage done, and. as far as practicable, to settle summarily by agreement the amount of compensation; in which case the compensation officer shall either cause the compensation to be paid at once, or shall give a notice in writing to the person entitled, stating the amount to be paid, and the place and date (not being later than thirty days from the date of the notice) at which that amount will be paid.
  (2.) The mode in which claims of compensation are to be sent to the compensation officer shall be notified within the prescribed limits in manner directed by the consultative commission. Every claim for compensation shall be sent to the compensation officer immediately after the forces have ceased to occupy or pass over the land in respect of which compensation is claimed, and at the latest within one week after the damage is done.
  (3.) Compensation may be paid to the person in actual occupation of the laud in respect of which it is claimed, or, in case of his absence or inability, to his wife or some member of his family, or to his steward or other person acting for him in the cultivation and management of the land, whose receipt shall he a complete discharge for the damage in respect of which the compensation is paid.
  (4.) The Board of Agriculture may, if they think fit, with the concurrence of the Treasury, appoint two or more persons to be compensation officers, and each of the persons so appointed shall perform the duties and have the powers by this Act conferred on the compensation officer.
  (5.) If the compensation officer tails to settle any claim for compensation, or is unable to decide the person to whom compensation is payable, the case shall be referred by him to the court of arbitration established under this Act, with a statement by the compensation officer of what he considers a fair compensation for the damage done.
  (6.) A court of arbitration shall, if required, be formed, consisting of three persons, one of whom shall be named by the consultative Commission in writing under the hands of any two or more of the members of that Commission, one by the Board of Agriculture, and the third by the two persons already named in writing under their hands, or, in case of their failure to agree as to such appointment within six days, by the Lord Chancellor.
  (7.) Any vacancy in the office of any member of the Court of Arbitration occasioned by death, resignation, unwillingness to act, or otherwise, shall be filled by the authority which appointed the vacating member, in the same manner in which the vacating member was appointed.
  (8.) There shall be paid to the compensation officers and to the members of the Court of Arbitration such remuneration as the Secretary of State may, with the approval of the Treasury, determine.
  (9.) The Court of Arbitration shall have full power to decide all questions whatsoever, whether of law or fact, which it may be necessary to decide for the purpose of awarding compensation under this Act, and in particular to decide in any case of alleged damage to lands, whether the damage was or was not caused by or in consequence of the forces, or the strangers accompanying the forces, passing over or occupying such lands, and also (if the damage was so caused) to determine the person entitled to receive compensation for the damage; and the Court of Arbitration shall not be liable to be restrained in the due execution of its powers by the order of any Court, nor shall any proceedings before it be removed by certiorari into any Court, nor shall any award by it be set aside.
  (10.) The court of arbitration may examine witnesses on oath, and shall for that purpose have power to administer an oath, and with respect to the enforcement of the attendance of witnesses, after a tender of their expenses, the examination of witnesses, and the production of books, papers, and documents, shall have all such powers, rights, and privileges as are vested in the High Court for those or the like purposes.
  (11.) The Court of Arbitration may hold its sittings at such times and places as it thinks expedient, and may act by any two of its members.
  (12.) The Court of Arbitration may appoint a valuer, and may delegate to that valuer such powers of assessing compensation under this Act as it may think fit; but an appeal may be had from his decision to the Court of Arbitration.
  (13.) The Court of Arbitration may examine the valuer as to the amount of compensation which in "is opinion ought to be paid in any case of damage brought before it, and may adopt or reject his opinion as it thinks just.
  (14.) The Court of Arbitration may review and rescind or vary any order or decision previously made by it; but, save as aforesaid, every order or decision of the Court shall be final.
  (15.) The Court of Arbitration shall publish in such manner as it thinks fit directions as to the mode in which applications are to be made to it under this Act.
  (16.) The Court of Arbitration shall not be bound to hear any counsel or solicitor, but any person claiming compensation may appear in person or by some agent authorised by him in writing, and the Court of Arbitration may, in addition to compensation for damage, grant further compensation for costs reasonably incurred in substantiating a claim, or may refuse such costs wholly or partially, or reduce the amount of compensation if the person claiming refused a fair offer from the compensation officer.
  (17.) Any person fraudulently claiming and receiving compensation to which he is not entitled shall be guilty of fraud, and be liable to be dealt with as if he had fraudulently received money under false pretences, and shall in addition be liable to pay the money received to the persons entitled thereto.
  MR. STRACHEY MR. STRACHEY moved after "Board of agriculture" in the first line of the clause, to insert "on the nomination of the County Councils wholly or partly within the prescribed limit." The object of the Amendment, he explained, was to give the County Council the power and the right to nominate the person who should be appointed as compensation officer. It was necessary, in order to guard the interests of the localities in this matter, that a fit and proper person should be appointed, and one who had some local knowledge. This could be best secured by allowing the County Council to have the power of nomination, the right of final appointment resting with the Board of Agriculture and the Treasury who, if they did not approve of the nomination, would get the County Council to submit other names. He recognised that the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill had made some concessions, and he asked turn to make this further small one of giving the County Council the power of initiation and suggestion.
  THE FINANCIAL SECRETARY TO THE WAR OFFICE (Mr. J. POWELL-WILLIAMS,)thought the hon. Member for Somerset had a little forgotten the duties this officer would have to perform. He would have to dispense public money, not derived from the rates, but voted by that House, and under such circumstances he must, of course, be an officer nominated by a Government Department. For his part, in a matter of this kind, he stood upon

  1401
  the words used by the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton the previous night, who claimed on behalf of this House that whenever there was an expenditure of public money there should be public control. That was exactly the case here. A reasonable concession had already been made in this clause. In all former cases of this kind it was usual to insert the Treasury as the authority to appoint the officer, but in this case the Board of Agriculture had been substituted for the Treasury. That was a considerable step in the direction the hon. Member wished to go, and he sincerely trusted, under the circumstances, that the Amendment would not be pressed.
  MR. STRACHEYpointed out that what he desired to secure was not the power of control, but simply that of nomination. The question of the compensation to be assessed was of great importance to the farmers, and their interests should be safeguarded in the way he had suggested.
  MR. POWELL-WILLIAMSsaid the matter was one which concerned the administration of public funds, and it was necessary the officer appointed for this purpose should be nominated by a Government Department.
  MR. DALZIELadmitted that there was something in what the hon. Gentleman had said as to public funds being administered by a public officer, but he would point out that the Government had themselves set a precedent for this Amendment, for in the Education Bill local committees were to be appointed to spend public moneys. His hon. Friend contended that it ought to be within the power of the County Councils to make representations to the Treasury. He would suggest as a compromise that the Under Secretary should consent that due regard should be paid to any representations that might be made by the County Councils. He thought that would leave it optional to the County Council, and it need not be taken advantage of unless when there was a great deal of local dissatisfaction, because, undoubtedly, as the right hon. Gentleman knew, it affected the local people. They complained if they did not get sufficient compensation, so that it was a local rather than an Imperial difficulty.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid that the nominations of the County Council
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  would probably be valuable and due regard would be paid to them. He would accept the following words:—
  "Having- regard to any representations made by the County Councils wholly or partially within the prescribed limits."
  Mr. STRACHEYasked whether the Government would accept the words, "With the concurrence of the County Council?"
  *MR. BRODRICK: No, Sir; that would be impossible.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid that local knowledge was absolutely essential in a case of this kind, and no one would know the requirements of the district better than the County Councils concerned.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that this was not a question of administration at all. The functions of the compensation officer would be purely judicial. He was to assess the damage done by the troops, and the Government, which was one of the parties to the dispute, was actually to appoint the assessor. The County Council could have no concern but the public interest.
  *MR. ALFRED HOPKINSONsaid that in the interests of the farmers it was better for the clause to stand as it was. The best way to make a satisfactory bargain was to deal with an agent of the Government which had to make the payments, and not resort to judicial proceedings. In nine cases out of 10 an agent would settle the claims more generously.
  MR. H. E. KEARLEYsaid that if the County Council had a voice in the nomination of the assessor, the farmers would be more likely to regard the settlement as equitable. What would be the Government's objection to the Amendment?
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid the Government had already promised that due regard should be paid to the nomination of the County Councils. If the nomination were absolutely given to the County Councils, then the Board of Agriculture could not nominate anyone without the approval of the County Councils. That was an unreasonable demand, seeing that the County Councils would be in a majority on the Commission, and would settle where the troops were to go. Failing agreement as to the amount of

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  the compensation, there was an arbitration court provided, on which the County Council would appoint one member, the Board of Agriculture a second, and the two would co-appoint a third.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISurged the acceptance of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Somerset. All that was asked was that there should be concurrence between the County Council and the Board of Agriculture as to the nomination.
  MR. DALZIELhoped that the words which the Government had promised to accept would satisfy his hon. Friends. If the concurrence of the County Council were necessary, there would be Debates on the qualifications of the person suggested by the Board of Agriculture. Undoubtedly the practice would be to accept the nomination of the County Council.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that if the hon. Member had been a lawyer he would have known that the words he suggested were utterly futile and ineffective. The successful working of the Act would depend far more upon the manner in which the assessment of damage was made than on any other condition. The person appointed to make the assessment would be practically in the position of a Court of first instance, and the arbitrators would occupy the position simply of the Court of Appeal. There were certain districts—sheep-farming districts—in Wales and elsewhere, which no man could deal with under this Bill, who had not full local knowledge. ["Hear, hear!"] But wherever, or whatever, the district, it was desirable that a man should be appointed who had local knowledge of it, and could speak authoritatively with regard to it. ["Hear, hear!"] He could not understand why the Government did not accept this Amendment, for he believed it would facilitate the working of the Bill. ["Hear, hear!"]
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir ROBERT FINLAY,)said, be thought there was some misapprehension on the point under Debate. The officer referred to would not be an assessor, or valuer, or a judical officer, to determine finally; he would be appointed merely as an agent to settle by agreement with the farmer, the extent of damage done. If an agreement could
  1404
  not be arrived at, the case would go to the Court of Arbitration, which was an altogether different authority, and would be appointed in such a way as to secure independence. In these circumstances he thought the Amendment was unreasonable.
  MR. LOGANagreed that a man, whose duty it would be to go over the land and ascertain the damage done, should have intimate knowledge of the locality. Moreover, having the power, as far as possible, to settle the amount of damage, surely he would be the valuer of that damage?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL: By agreement.
  MR. LOGANsaid, that, nevertheless, the official would be a valuer, and it was desirable that he should be a man in whom, not only the farmers, but the general community, also, had confidence. For it was not sufficient to tell him that the farmer would be compensated. Who was to pay the compensation? Why, the general community would have to pay it, and, therefore, he thought the person selected for the duty should be appointed by the County Council rather than by a Government Department.
  *MR. BRODRICKwould remind the Committee of the position in which Parliament stood with regard to the Bill. If the Measure was not passed into law by the 10th of May, it would be almost impossible to hold the manœuvres this year. There was not a Member of the House who did not desire the Bill to become law with proper restrictions. ["Hear, hear!"] Well, a large number of restrictions had been introduced in deference to the wishes of hon. Members, and the Government had accepted every Amendment to which they could possibly accede, and they had made every possible concession. ["Hear, hear!"] But on principle they could not accept the present Amendment, and he would remind hon. Members that even in this case the conditions were in favour of the tenant farmer, for while the agreement could not be enforced against the farmer, it would be binding against the Government. The passing of the Bill was regarded as a matter of great importance by the military authorities, and after the explanations already given he appealed to the Committee to dispose of this Amendment in

  1405
  order that further progress might be made with the Bill.
  MR. KEARLEYsaid the point at issue was whether or not the official referred to was to be a man who would command the confidence of the farmers and the community. He maintained that it was essential to the working of the Measure that the appointment should be controlled by the local authorities.
  MR. STRACHEYsaid the remarks of the Under Secretary had not met the point he had raised, and, therefore, he could not withdraw his Amendment. He was strongly impressed with the necessity that the farmers should be fully and fairly protected.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsaid that on the grounds of economy, it was advisable that some person thoroughly acquainted with the locality should be appointed for the duty in question. It was scarcely reasonable to think that any stranger sent down to a neighbourhood by the Central Department would be so well able to understand or appreciate the damage done by the manœuvres as a man thoroughly acquainted with the locality, and he urged, therefore, that it would be in the interests of the Exchequer itself that such a man should be appointed. ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. LOGAN,MR. LOGAN, who was received with cries of "Divide!" said hon. Gentlemen seemed to be anxious to divide, but he protested against the necessity of this Bill being rushed through the House.
  *THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Member was not in order in making such observations.
  MR. LOGANsaid all he wished to say was, that feeling that the Bill would very materially affect the interests of the tenant farmers, he protested as emphatically as he could against any attempt on the part of hon. Members to rush it through the House.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: Any such discussion is quite out of order.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted:"—
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 127; Noes, 245.—(Division List, No. 107.)
  MR. COURTENAY WARNER MR. COURTENAY WARNER moved an Amendment, providing that
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  concurrence of the Treasury in the appointment of the compensation officer should not be necessary. He contended that if the concurrence of the Treasury were made a condition of the appointment, farmers would not place the same confidence in the compensation officer as they would if he were appointed by the Board of Agriculture independently.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid that if this officer were an arbitrator the Amendment would deserve consideration. But as the case stood it would be unprecedented to give the right of disposing of public money to an official in whose appointment the Treasury had not concurred. The consent of the Treasury to the appointment would, he believed, be mainly a formal matter.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERsaid that it should be remembered that this was to be permanent legislation. The compensation officer would practically be an arbitrator. He would have to assess damages, to represent the case for the Government, and to pay Government money. He would decide between the Treasury and the farmer, and there was to be an appeal against his decisions to a court of arbitration.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEthought that the rejection by the Government of the last Amendment rendered the present Amendment very necessary. They ought not to act in consultation with the Treasury in respect to the appointment of the compensation officer, for the object of the Treasury would be- to out down claims as much as possible. Surely the Board of Agriculture could appoint a fit and proper officer without the concurrence of the Treasury.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid that no expenditure of public money was ever made by any Department without the consent of the Treasury. The Secretary of State for War, for example, could not pay out 5s. without such consent. The Amendment of the hon. Member would introduce a complete change in the practice that now prevailed, and it was impossible to accept it.
  SIR WALTER FOSTERsupported the view of the Under Secretary for War. The Board of Agriculture had no money to apply to the purposes contemplated in the Bill. When the officer was appointed to disburse large sums of

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  money it was only right that the Treasury that had to find the money should be given a nominal power of concurring in the appointment. The provision practically gave the Treasury very little real authority; but it connected the Department with the process of making good the damage done, and he thought that that connection should not be broken.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYappealed to the hon. Member to withdraw his Amendment. He understood that there was no opposition to this Bill, and that it was generally agreed that it was desirable to give the military authorities power to hold manœuvres this year. The Bill had been put down on the Paper day after day, but very little progress had been made with it. If there was any further delay it would be useless to pass the Measure, for no good would result from it. The object in view was one of great public importance. In the circumstances, he trusted that the remaining stages of the Bill would not be impeded.
  MR. LITTTRELLsaid that there was, no doubt, a general desire that the Bill should pass; but there was also a desire that it should pass in the best possible form. He hoped, however, that the speeches delivered by hon. Members would be short, so that the Bill might be got through.
  MR. COURTENAY WARNERasked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISsaid that the Leader of the House had referred to the special circumstances of one year in support of an appeal to pass a Bill which would be permanent. The reason why the progress of this Bill should be watched very carefully was because it was an innovation constitutionally. Bills relating to the Army had hitherto been annual Bills. There was no desire to delay the Measure unduly; but, as it would apply for all time, they could not consent to take into consideration the circumstances of one particular year.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  *MR. BRODRICK*MR. BRODRICK moved an Amendment providing that, in the appointment of the compensation officer, regard should be had to any representations of the
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  County Councils wholly or partially situated within the prescribed district.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE MR. LLOYD-GEORGE moved to insert after the word "person," in line 23, the words, "who shall be a resident within the prescribed limits."
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE MR. LLOYD-GEORGE moved, after the words, "within the prescribed limits," sub-section (1), to insert the words, "after notice given to the owner or occupier of the affected land." He thought the owner or occupier ought to have some notice when the person appointed by the Board of Agriculture was coming down to assess the damage. Otherwise, he did not see how they were likely to come to terms at all.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSsaid it was provided in the clause that, when the assessment of the compensation had been agreed upon, the money was not be paid in the ordinary way, but the person injured was to go to certain places to get his money. Most of the tenant farmers in his district were very poor, and a railway journey of 20 or 30 miles would be a very serious thing for them. He therefore proposed to leave out the words, "and place and date," in line 31.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: It is very inconvenient not to have the Amendments on the Paper. ["Hear, hear!"]
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERALsaid the Amendment would make the clause quite incomprehensible. The clause as it stood was really in favour of the tenant. Nobody could suggest that a public department would wish to compel a poor man to make a journey in order to receive his money. It was obviously meant that arrangements would be made for the payment of the money at local post offices and such places.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: I do not think the Amendment is in order. It would make nonsense of the clause. [Laughter.]
  MR. STRACHEYpointed out that, as the Bill stood, it was required that notice of the damage should be given within one week after the troops had

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  passed over the land. It was quite ridiculous to expect a farmer to make out his claim within one week. He thought he would be very moderate in asking for three weeks. However, he would content himself by moving the substitution of three weeks for one week.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid he was willing to make it a fortnight, though he believed that would be against the locality and the tenant farmer.
  MR. STRACHEYsaid the clause provided that every claim should be sent to the compensation officer immediately after the force had ceased to pass over the land, and within one week after the damage had been done. He referred more especially to the difficulty of ascertaining the damage to cattle within a week. However he did not want to go at length into the matter now, as he felt the force of the appeal of the Leader of the House, and recognised the necessity of getting the Bill through I as quickly as possible.
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL: Take 14 days. [Laughter.]
  SEVERAL HON. MEMBERS: No, three weeks.
  MR. LUTTRELLsaid he thought a fortnight might be sufficient, but he did not see why the Government should insist on it.
  DR. TANNERsaid the Government had chucked in one week; why could they not grant the other? If damage was done on these lands, it could not possibly be found out by what particular corps or party such damage was done.
  MR. W. ALLENhoped the Government would meet his hon. Friend in this matter. He did not think he was asking for at all too much time. Of course, in the case of crops, it would be perfectly easy to discover the damage at once: but in the case of cattle he did not think it would be so easy.
  Amendment agreed to.
  *MR. BRODRICK*MR. BRODRICK moved, at the end of Sub-section (2), after "done" to insert
  "or the occupation has ceased, whichever is later, or within such further time as may be prescribed in special oases by the consultative commission."
  Amendment agreed to.
  *MR. BRODRICK*MR. BRODRICK moved to insert at the end of Sub-section (3), after "paid," the following:—
  "(4) In the case of compensation payable in respect of rights of common the compensation may be paid to the County Council for the county in which the common is situate, or in the case of the New Forest to the Court of Verderers, to be paid or applied by them to or for the benefit of the persons whose rights of common are affected, in such manner as they think just."
  MR. LUTTRELL MR. LUTTRELL moved to amend the proposed Amendment by substituting the words "District Council" for the "County Council." It would be better, he contended, that the District Council should be charged with the payment of the money, inasmuch as that body would know more about the claimant and the general circumstances of the case.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid he could not accept the Amendment. He thought that the District Councils did not cover large enough areas. The land affected might be within the jurisdiction of more than one District Council.
  MR. LUTTRELLsaid that the same argument would apply to the County Council, as the manœuvres might be extended over several counties. He must press upon the Government the necessity for substituting for the County Council the District Council. His reason for taking that course was that the District Council represented the district affected by the provisions of the Bill better than the County Council did.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid he was willing to amend his Amendment by inserting after the word "situate" the words "or if the common is wholly situated in one district, in such case to the District Council." Beyond that he could not go.
  MR. LUTTRELLsaid that he supposed that he must be content to accept the Amendment which the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War proposed in lieu of his own, and, therefore, he asked leave to withdraw his Amendment.
  Proposed Amendment to the Amendment, by leave, withdrawn; Amendment of Mr. Brodrick agreed to.
  *MR. BRODRICK*MR. BRODRICK moved to amend Sub-section (5), by inserting after the

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  word "settle" the words "by agreement."
  Amendment agreed to.
  *MR. BRODRICK*MR. BRODRICK moved to amend Sub-section (8), by inserting after the word "Treasury" the words "having regard to any representations made by the County Council."
  Amendment agreed to.
  *MR. BRODRICK*MR. BRODRICK moved to amend Sub-section (9), by inserting after the words "determine the person" the words "resident within the prescribed limits."
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEasked whether it was intended that the arbitrator appointed by the occupier should be remunerated by the Government? He begged to move the insertion of the following words: "Charged upon the War Office Vote with the assent of the Treasury."
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid that he could not accept the Amendment.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. STRACHEY MR. STRACHEY moved, in subsection (16) to leave out the word "may" after "and the Court of Arbitration," in order to insert the word "shall." He objected to the payment of costs "reasonably incurred" in the arbitration being left to the discretion of the Court of Arbitration.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid that he was willing to accept the words "shall, if they think fit."
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that the words suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War would still leave the question of the payment of costs reasonably incurred in the arbitration to the discretion of the Court of Arbitration.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid that he could not go further than he had done. A man who had had an offer of £100 compensation might refuse unreasonably to accept it, and it would not be right that in such a case he should have the costs of the appeal.
  Question, "That the word 'may' stand part of the Clause," put, and negatived.
  Question put, "That the words 'shall if it think fit' be there inserted:"—
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 246; Noes, 114.—(Division List, No. 108.)
  And, it being after ten minutes to Seven of the clock, the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday.

BERRIEW SCHOOL BILL.
Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
MILITARY LANDS ACT (1892) AMENDMENT BILL.
Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.

CONCILIATION (TRADE DISPUTES) BILL.
Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
And, it being Seven of the clock, Mr. Speaker suspended the Sitting until Nine of the Clock.

EVENING SITTING.

  SOLDIERS AND SAILORS (CIVIL DEPARTMENTS).
  *MR. H. O. ARNOLD - FORSTERrose to move the following Resolution:—
  "That the failure of successive administrations to give employment in civil departments to reserve or time-expired soldiers and sailors of good character is contrary to public policy and detrimental to the interests of the service, and that this House calls upon Her Majesty's Government to make larger provision for the employment of such persons by allotting to them preferentially such posts in the public service as they are competent to fill."
  (At this point an unsuccessful attempt was made to count out the House.) The

  1413
  hon. Member, proceeding, said what he wanted to show was that, first, there was a neglect of a public duty in regard to the treatment of discharged soldiers and sailors; secondly, that there was a grievance unremedied; and, thirdly, that there was a possible method of fulfilling the duty and getting rid of the grievance. This was no new matter. There had been Commissions which had reported from 1876 to 1895, and very little had been done. They owed a duty to the soldier and the sailor, and they never owed it more clearly than at the present time. They made and they marred the soldier's career. Formerly they had 21 years' service followed by a pension; but they had substituted a term of seven years' service—a term which might suit the interest of the Army, but which was disastrous as regarded the man. They took him at 18, kept him up to 25, and taught him absolutely nothing but the military duties he had to perform and a little elementary education. Germany, France, and Italy had to induce their men to re-engage, and they recognised that a man after he left the service should not be left to toss about on the waves of society. He did not accuse the War Department with being lax, or even careless in the matter, but the good will, which he had found abundantly, had not done what was wanted. The number of men discharged into the Reserves varied every year from 15,000 to 17,000. How many of the total discharged were without employment they could not say, but they could get at the number employed., The Discharged Soldiers' Aid Society did much. ["Hear, hear!"] During last year over 4,000 had been placed out of 17,000 discharged. Then there were the regimental associations, and they had also done a great deal. There had also been a good deal done by some of the Government offices; but, after all, much remained to be done. Many of the men employed were insufficiently paid, and two-thirds of the candidates sent up by the Soldiers Aid Society to the authorities of the Metropolitan Police had been rejected. That statement seemed incredible, but it was absolutely true. The moral of it was we were not getting the proper material for our Army, nor would we get it until we were able to offer the inducement that our soldiers
  1414
  would obtain employment after they left the service. The eulogies which were frequently indulged in by Inspecting Officers and, in after-dinner speeches and in newspaper articles of the physique of the recruits who were now entering the service must be largely discounted. The average manhood of the country was not fairly represented in the Army. The proof of that contention was found in the fact that, when a battalion had to be made up for foreign service, the melancholy process of selection had to be resorted to, for many of the men in the service were unfit to undertake the arduous duties of a campaign. To remedy that sad state of things, one thing was absolutely necessary. There must be some certainty of employment for soldiers on their discharge. A man would very much prefer to invest his money at 2½ per cent. in Consols than in 10 per cent. Turkish Bonds, for he knew the former was a certainty, and though the work that was done by the Discharged Soldiers' Aid Societies and such voluntary associations was excellent so far as it went, it was nothing like enough, and a soldier, on enlisting, had no assurance whatever that his career, after he had passed in course of time into the Reserve, might not be rendered unhappy by the misfortune of want of employment. What was good for the service was good for the country. He had heard that in one regimental district, which had a distinguished regiment attached it it, the mere fact that an effort was made to secure employment for the men on their discharge had greatly increased the quality of the recruiting throughout the district. In France, in order to get over the difficulty experienced in getting men to re-engage, the military authorities had enlarged their powers for giving employment to discharged soldiers. The result was that the enlistments rose from 19,000 to 20,000, the maximum number required for the whole service of the French Army. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for North - East Manchester made, when Postmaster General, a suggestion in regard to the employment of discharged soldiers in the Post Office, which, unhappily, had not been acted upon. That suggestion was, that when boys had passed the initial stage of telegraph messengers, they should then go

  1415
  into the Army, and after having served in the Army should be restored to the Post Office as messengers.
  SIR JAMES FERGUSSONsaid, that suggestion was made before his time, and he had thought it would be unjust to require the boys to enter the Army. What he had suggested was that boys, who, after six years in the telegraph service enlisted in the Army, should have a preferential right to re-engagement in the Post Office after they had left the Army.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERsaid he understood the arrangement, and he regretted that even that plan had never been carried out, and that no other plan had been substituted for it. In fact, the area of employment of discharged soldiers in the Post Office had been curtailed instead of being extended. A very valuable Return had recently been furnished as a result of inquiries into the mode in which this important question was settled in continental armies. In Austria-Hungary £2,300,000 was available for payments to discharged soldiers in respect to offices to which they had a preferential right. In France, as he had already said, 24,000 men were induced to re-engage by the prospect of employment when they had completed their service. The right of a soldier to employment in France was so strong that, if he could not obtain a place, owing to the exigencies of the public service at the time when his discharge was due, he was allowed to remain on in the service until the office to which he was entitled by law became vacant. In Germany 92,000 places in State Departments were reserved for old soldiers. In Italy, which was a poor country, and therefore could not proceed on the same lavish scale as France and Germany, 8,000 places were reserved for old soldiers of good character and conduct. He did not say that we should emulate the action of the great Continental military monarchies, but he did say that we, no less than they, had a duty to perform in the matter, and that that duty was not performed. It was a humiliating confession to have to make that, though the House of Commons had again and again passed Resolutions in favour of the employment of discharged soldiers by the State, and that though Committees appointed to
  1416
  inquire into the matter had unanimously made similar recommendations, practically nothing had been done by any of the Departments, save the Military and Naval, to give effect to the wishes of the House. The proper course for the House to adopt was to pass a Mandatory Instruction to the Departments to select a proportion of their offices which should, under the authority of Parliament, be given to discharged soldiers who were competent to fill them, and that an official should be appointed charged with the special duty of seeing that that instruction was carried into effect. It was said by those who professed to represent the views of the working classes that those classes would object to any extension of the employment of soldiers or sailors as a matter of right. Even if the working classes took up such an attitude, it should not be allowed to interfere with the performance of a plain public duty; but he was convinced from experience that no section of Englishmen had so little regard for the welfare of the Empire as to put themselves in opposition to a reform of this kind if they found it was a necessary patriotic duty. Over and over again he had addressed large bodies of working men on Army questions, and he had never heard the slightest objection raised to the contention that our soldiers ought, as a matter of right, to have the prospect of employment after they left the service. If there were any working men who took the opposite view, he would point out to them that they really ought to bless the service which withdrew 20,000 or 30,000 men every year from the competition of the labour market, and thus increased their own chances of obtaining employment. After all, the men who came back were but as a mere drop in the ocean of the labour market, and surely we had not arrived at such point in our social economy that the 2,000, or 3,000 men at the outside, who might enter annually the London labour market for instance, could so upset the calculations of the great Trade Unions or of those interested in the bestowal of labour on their clients that they could not afford to leave them out of account. It was, he was persuaded, to the interest of all that the present cruel system should not be allowed to continue. ["Hear, hear!"]

  1417
  In the first place, they must perform the duty to the soldier in the interest of the soldier, of the Army, and of the country; and, in the second place, they ought to show that they would not tolerate the persistent and eternal neglect of the clearly expressed wishes of the country. ["Hear, hear!"] He moved the Motion which stood in his name.
  *CAPTAIN NORTONseconded the Motion. He said that, though many years had elapsed since he was connected with one of the branches of the regular Army, he still took in the service a very deep interest. He, in common with his soldier colleagues, felt that past Governments had failed in their duty and in their responsibility to the soldiers and sailors. He maintained that those who had served their country had a special claim on the community, for they relieved others of a responsibility, every able-bodied man in the country being liable to serve in the Militia. It might he said there was no great, hardship and inconvenience to the man who joined the service, because usually he was a man who liked a life of change and adventure. But that the bulk of mankind did feel it an inconvenience was incontestably proved by what took place on the Continent—men mutilated and maimed themselves in order to escape service. His hon. Friend had referred to the effect on the labour market of the carrying out of this Resolution. He could corroborate the hon. Gentleman's statement that the bulk of the working population of the country were by no means averse to the ex soldier and sailor obtaining employment. They were averse, however, to a certain class of employers taking advantage of the ex-soldier and sailor to break down the labour market generally. There were some employers who said to the old soldier: "You have a pension of some 7s. a week, a living wage is taken to be 24s., therefore, if you are willing to accept this employment, I will pay you 17s. a week." That was the only point of view from which the labour party and the labour leaders were averse to the competition of the ex-soldier and sailor in the labour market. As to better treatment of soldiers, he held that, if the Government were to treat the men better they would obtain better
  1418
  material. It was clearly shown before the Committee to whose proceedings the hon. Gentleman had referred, that the tendency of the better treatment of the soldier during recent years had been to attract a higher type of men to the service. The service had become more popular. Formerly, the man who went for a soldier was looked upon almost as a disgrace to his family, but now they found respectable families proud to acknowledge that a son of theirs was serving in such a regiment. It had been said Government should be a model employer of labour. The result of the recent Inquiry went to show that naval men, owing to the fact that they were men of ready resource and of good physique, found very little difficulty in obtaining employment when they left the service. That was also the case with men of the artillery and cavalry. It was to the men of the infantry that the Government owed the greatest moral obligation, but the Government had really shunted their responsibility upon the public and upon general employers. The great railway companies had patriotically shown themselves willing to take Reserve men, and they would, indeed, be prepared to fill about one - eighth of their posts with such men if the men were fitted for the work. There was abundant evidence that old soldiers made good caretakers, watchmen, and storekeepers. What was to prevent the Government leaving such posts open exclusively to the ex-soldier? It had been conclusively proved, also, that a good soldier made a good policeman, and that one-eighth of the entire police force of the country could be supplied from the ranks of the ex-soldiers and sailors without any inconvenience to the force. These men, too, would make good prison warders, and there were some posts under Government, such as junior clerkships, and posts in the second division of clerks, for which they were well suited. There could be no reason why a certain proportion of these posts should not be filled by men who had left the service. During the last 20 years the number of men in the service who had obtained first-class certificates had trebled. Amongst those men there must be many who had still higher qualifications, and who were able, while serving, to improve themselves educationally. He suggested that a special

  1419
  examination should be instituted of a class similar to that passed by the second division clerks, and that there should be added to it voluntary subjects, such as book-keeping, shorthand writing, typewriting, and so forth. The men who passed in these subjects would thereby the better fit themselves for future employment. As to the question of character, it was pointed out before the Committee, that if the character on the discharge sheet were fuller, and special emphasis were laid on the fact whether the man was a sober man or not, a great many more employers would be prepared to take soldiers on all hands. It was acknowledged that occasional drinking outbursts were the great drawback of the ex-soldiers. In his opinion deferred pay should be absolutely done away with, for he was disposed to think it did not bring one extra man into the service, but often meant the downfall of a man. He suggested that pensions, instead of being paid qarterly to men not accustomed to handling much money, should be paid weekly through the postal authorities. Then, a good soldier not infrequently left the service under the impression that he would readily obtain employment in civil life; but, when he came to try, he met with bitter disappointment. A man was put into a trench alongside navvies, and his hands went to pieces to start with. As to building work, he could not climb ladders. There was a consensus of opinion on the part of employers of labour that the soldier was to a great extent disqualified in this way. The man who entered the Reserve should have the option within six months, with the approval of his commanding officer, of returning to his own corps, the commanding officer having the power, in the event of a man deteriorating, of rejecting him. He would further suggest that all regiments should have the power enjoyed by the Household troops of rejecting a man altogether from the service whose character was such as to be detrimental to the service at large. His last point was that the Government should begin at home, and do as the Mover of the Motion had suggested. Side by side with every recruiting poster in the country should be placed a statement riving the number of posts under
  1420
  Government, in each department, for which soldiers were specially eligible, and the qualifications required. This would act as an incentive to the best men in the country to join the service. This question should be regarded from a higher point of view than the sordid, economic one of supply and demand. We might spend millions on floating fortresses, and thousands on machine guns; but, after all man was the machine of machines, and all our resources would be wasted if confided to the care of men inferior in physique, intelligence, or morale. We ought to have as our national defenders men vigorous in all the pre-eminent characteristics of our race. What was it that made this country the finest in the world? Not its equable climate and its exuberant soil, its mineral wealth and its redundant rivers, but the fact that it was inhabited by a people, strong in physical and moral force, whose spirit was as high to-day as when our gallant seamen swept from the ocean the allied fleets of France and Spain—a people who had never seen a foreign flag except as a trophy, whose sons were building great cities and establishing gigantic industries in Australasian and South African deserts; and if we were to hold our worldwide Empire, with its ever-increasing responsibilities, it was the duty of our Government, as custodians of that Empire, to endeavour to attract to the service for its defence men fitted to uphold the national honour and protect the national interests. ["Hear, hear!"]
  *SIR JAMES FERGUSSONsaid he should have preferred to have waited until a Member of the Government had dealt with the complaint made and offered an explanation of the failure of successive Governments to give effect to the recommendations of Select Committees and do justice to the rank and file of the Army. He did not wish to speak of himself, but, having been a soldier in his youth, and taken an interest in the Army all his life, he had always had an earnest desire to do anything in his power to raise the character and standard of the men in the Army. He had long been convinced that, if proper inducements were held out to the respectable youth of this country to make the Army their profession for their early manhood, not only would

  1421
  the character of the Army be immensely raised, but the Army would be rendered much more valuable and reliable to the country, and a great benefit would be done to the civil population which the education of service in the Army would give to a large proportion of its youth. How was this to be done? By teaching the Army that it was held in honour, by teaching people that it was no disgrace for a young man to enter the Army, that he would not only get benefit while there, but when he left would be raised in the social scale. The time was, when a lad left home and entered the Army it was thought next door to his going to the devil. No doubt, formerly, the Army did largely consist of the refuse of the country. They made good food for powder. They had discipline, but not the kindness education and refinement which was the result of military service nowadays. Everyone knew how zealous our officers were to treat their men with consideration and induce them to behave well. Those efforts had been attended with good results. The Report of the Director General on recruiting showed that the Army was improving year by year, that an increased proportion of men of a respectable class were entering the service. That was to a large extent due to the wide diffusion of education, the great increase of population, and the overcrowding of many of the professions. This fact ought to argue in favour of giving an opportunity to those who after their service passed into civil life to obtain good employment in the service of the State. All were convinced on that point, and Members of consecutive Governments had held out many promises that greater things should be done to provide employment for soldiers. In these days, when men entered the Army at 17 or 18, 19 or 20, and at 25 or 26 passed into the Reserve, they were exactly of the age when they might fill excellently many posts in the Civil Service. Probably no one was better suited for employment in situations, where punctuality, obedience and regularity were required, than those who had been subjected to the strict discipline of the Army. Reference had been made to what the Post Office had done for soldiers. His predecessor
  1422
  as Postmaster General being anxious to improve the Post Office and assist in the employment of soldiers, made a regulation that telegraph messsengers should be engaged on condition of serving in the Army after completing their service as telegraph messengers. In that way not only would the Army have been supplied with boys who had already been well trained, but they would have been able to have given employment to a large number of Army reserve men. He calculated that at least 2,000 places a year would be given to reserve soldiers. He regretted to say, however, that immediately after he left the Post Office the scheme for giving employment to reserve soldiers was not carried out as one would have expected it would have been, and the numbers of such deserving men taken into the service decreased instead of increased. Instead of the 2,000 places which it was hoped would be offered to reserve soldiers, he found the number given in 1892 was 1,230; in 1893, 979; in 1894, 715; and in 1895, 589. As the Telegraph service increased, the number of messengers were greater, so that fewer places could be given to soldiers, and he spoke with authority when he said the Post Office could hardly be relied upon for soldiers at all. Thus the expectations which had been held out were disappointed. Looking to their civil departments, he declared that employment in well-paid offices had too long been regarded as a kind of outdoor relief for domestic servants. It was absolutely wrong that domestic servants should get jobbed into this sort of public employment, whilst those who had served Her Majesty in the Army and Navy in every clime and amid every danger should be left to walk the streets unemployed. It might be said that only a small number could be employed in that way, but he was quite sure that in that House and in public offices of every kind an immense number of non-commissioned officers could be employed to the benefit of the Army and the public service at large. This Session he had put his finger on a grievance affecting the Army which, he thought, was a real one. He had asked several questions upon the subject, but so far he had been met in what he could not but describe as an unworthy way. By the Police Act of

  1423
  1890 it was provided that every man who had been employed in any pensionable department who entered the police force, whether paid by that House or by the Police Fund, should be entitled to count his previous civil service towards his pension, but soldiers and sailors were not accorded the same privilege. Such a grievance, he should have thought, only required to be mentioned to be instantly remedied, but, so far, no move had been made in the direction of putting soldiers and sailors in the same position as their confreres. He asked the Home Secretary about the matter, and he at once admitted the hardship of the case, but said the Treasury had a great objection to pensioning men partly by the War Department and partly by the Civil Department. He then went to the Secretary to the Treasury from whom he received a sympathetic response, and a promise to look into the question. After waiting for some months without hearing anything he put a question to the right hon. Gentleman the previous night, but the answer did not appear in the public journals. He supposed it was not sent to the newspapers as Ministers' answers, as a rule, were, and he would not quote it at length as he might not be able to do so accurately. It was sufficient to say that one of the main reasons for not applying the remedy asked for was to the following effect: That if soldiers entering the police were allowed to count their time in the Army for pensions, then pensioners from the Army who were now allowed to draw their pensions in addition to their civil pay, could not be any longer allowed to do so. That was a Departmental answer of the kind of which it used to be said, "Oh! it is good enough for the House of Commons." There were police officers in that House who had served 20 years in the Army, who would have to serve seven years more than their confreres, and all over the country there were policemen who had been in the Army serving side by side with men who had been in the Post Office, the Customs Department, and so forth, and while the latter could count their former service for a pension the ex-soldier could not. That was a manifest injustice, and a direct discouragement to the best class
  1424
  of recruits for the police. When the Secretary to the Treasury objected to this mixing up of the pensions of different Departments, he would refer to the evidence given before the Committee on the Employment of Soldiers, in which it was stated that when the late Mr. Raikes formed the scheme for passing the telegraph messengers into the Army before they received permanent employment in the police, the Treasury consented to their Army time counting for pension in their Post Office service. He, therefore, said that the answers given for putting off this remedy were most flimsy and devoid of any substance or justification at all. When those who earnestly desired to benefit the service and to support the Government were met in this way by a non possumus, it was not surprising they were compelled to vote for a Resolution to which the Government might possibly object, but which he and others who shared his views felt it their bounden duty to support.
  *MR. A. M. BROOKFIELDwould like to say a few words on this question, as he had the honour of drafting the Report of the Committee which recently sat on this subject. He believed that neither the mover, the seconder, nor the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken had at all exaggerated the seriousness of this problem. He should say they had rather understated than overstated it. He believed the whole difficulty could be illustrated at the present moment by a glance at the Treasury Bench when this question, which was one of national importance, was left to the tender mercies of an Under Secretary, whose sympathies were known beforehand to be on the side of anything that could be done in his own department, whilst the Treasury and the Home Office were practically unrepresented, and the Front Opposition Bench deserted. Now the real crux of this difficulty was what to do with the 15,000, or 16,000, or 17,000 men who were annually passed into the reserve. Hitherto the only earnest attempts to deal with that question had been made by the National Association, which had done excellent work; by private individuals to some extent; by some of the great railway companies; and, to some small

  1425
  extent, by the War Office and the Admiralty; but never by Her Majesty's Government as representing the State. Their object that evening should be to put it before the Government and the country that this was a matter which concerned the State, and which should have State assistance. The attitude of the State had hitherto been one of masterly incompetence. They had always taken up the non possumus attitude of "We cannot do it; we only wish we could." What was the mysterious power behind the State that prevented their doing anything they pleased? He believed it was the permanent civilian officials, who, throughout all the controversy on this subject, had shown the most consistent hostility to the welfare of the soldier and sailor. There was no more lamentable instance of the sinister influence of the permanent official mind, than in the action taken with regard to the Post Office Enlistment scheme, as it was called. He did not believe the House or the country ever thoroughly understood what was done in regard to that matter. In 1891 the then Postmaster General, the late Mr. Cecil Raikes, with the full approval of the Treasury, decided that in future, when telegraph messengers reached the age of 18, they should be encouraged to enlist—in other words, their promotion should cease in the Post Office, but that if they chose to go into the Army and serve with the colours for five years they would find places kept for them on their return. The difficulty of concurrent service in the two Departments was got over in that case, for their service with the colours was to count as half-time service in the Post Office. He thought the country ought to understand the circumstances under which this excellent scheme was abandoned and reversed. When the right hon. Baronet the Member for North-East Manchester succeeded the late Mr. Raikes he took up this system with enthusiasm, but on a change of Government it was completely reversed on the ground that it had not succeeded. He believed it required the mind of a permanent official to prove that a thing had been unsuccessful when it had never been tried at all. Mr. Joyce, of the Post Office, who had distinguished himself by his consistent opposition to any plans for the
  1426
  employment of soldiers, gave evidence on this point before the Select Committee, and stated that not only was the scheme found to have a bad effect—that it had failed, in fact—but that it had never come into practical operation! This inconsistency, Mr. Joyce coolly explained, was more apparent than real, as it had been found that the dread of their sons having possibly to serve with the colours had begun to have a deterrent effect on what he considered the more respectable class of parents in letting their sons enter the telegraph service. Was it not conceivable that they might make the Army a more respectable calling if they provided for the future of those who went into the Army? This scheme by which large numbers of men of the Army reserve would have been provided for, had never been allowed a fair trial or a chance of being tried. He believed the hostility of the permanent officials and of a small number of Members opposite to the employment of old soldiers proceeded from the confusion they made between the soldier of the present day and the soldier of the past. He was not going to deny that the long service soldier of a quarter of a century ago was unfitted in many respects for certain forms of civil employment. But since that time not only had short service been introduced, but the social status of the soldier, and his educational and moral calibre had very greatly improved also. He thought, therefore, that hon. Members and officials who believed it their duty to oppose giving soldiers a chance of employment in civil life, ought more candidly to examine what he was likely to prove himself when he had a fair chance, instead of allowing their minds to dwell upon stories of the drunkenness and depravity of the old fighting animal of a bygone age. The present-day experience of the soldier's worth was entirely in favour of giving him a better chance. The practice in foreign countries was very different from that followed in England, and their experience of the employment of the soldier in civil life was strongly in favour of it. A short time since the Iron and Steel Trade Association sent an important delegation to Germany and Belgium to inquire into the reasons why those countries were able to compete so

  1427
  successfully with England in that industry, and in the Report they issued—a document which was not intended in the remotest degree to have any bearing on this question—it was stated that one of the explanations of that success was the superiority of the German over the English workman in his implicit discipline, and his clock-work obedience to the word of command in the workshop. That surely was an argument in favour of employing men who had done military service—who had been for years subjected to discipline. ["Hear, hear!"] He might quote, also, in support of the Resolution, from reports furnished by the Military Attaches at our Embassies abroad as to the employment of soldiers by Government Departments. He referred to the Paper marked "Commercial, No 5,1893." In a letter enclosing a Report to the Earl of Rosebery, Sir A. Paget, writing from Vienna, February 1, 1893, said:—
  "This system which, according to Colonel Dawson's Report, is largely practised in this Empire, would appear to be attended with the best results, and, if I may he permitted to offer an opinion, would be peculiarly beneficial in countries where the conscription does not exist, as offering an additional inducement to good men to enter the ranks of the Army."
  Lord Dufferin, writing to the Earl of Rosebery from Paris in January 1893, enclosing a Dispatch from Colonel Talbot, said:—
  "Owing to the necessity of having well-qualified non-commissioned officers, soldiers who have already attained this grade are tempted to re-engage after the compulsory period of three years, by the special inducement, among others, of about 500 different descriptions of appointments being reserved for retired non-commissioned officers."
  Sir Edward Malet, in a Dispatch from Berlin in the same month, said that:—
  "If State employment in the United Kingdom were assured to soldiers of good conduct after the completion of a certain number of years of service, the general public would gain largely through the increased efficiency of the service in those departments to which such soldiers were admitted."
  And lastly Lord Vivian, in a Dispatch from Rome on February 2, 1893, said:—
  "The effect of this system is to popularise service in the Army and Navy, … and at the same time to provide a body of deserving men, trained to habits of order, sobriety, and
  1428
  discipline, for service in the public offices, without throwing any increased burden on the State. I cannot but think that, in view of the increasing difficulty of manning our Volunteer Army and Navy, the possibility of applying such a system in the United Kingdom is worthy of serious study."
  ["Hear, hear!"] He had already admitted that the action of the War Office in this matter had been of a benevolent character, but the War Office and other Departments were powerless without assistance from the Treasury. Now, there were two points he would suggest for the consideration of the Government. One was that the Secretary of State for War should consider the feasibility of reserving the posts of officers' servants to men of the Army Reserve—["hear, hear!"]—and the other point was that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should consider whether it would not be possible to remit altogether the tax on male servants in cases where the men employed belonged to the reserve, or were pensioners from the Army or Navy. If the Government persevered in its present attitude, the result would be not only considerable inefficiency in the services, but a feeling of exasperation which would find expression in the House as well as out of it. But he trusted Ministers would be induced to see the necessity of a new policy, thus removing what was really a disgrace to the country and a standing reproach to the Government of the day.
  MR. H. E. KEARLEYsaid, he wished to dissociate the Opposition side of the House from the prejudice that everything connected with soldiers was disreputable. He had the greatest possible sympathy with the Motion, and in support of it he desired to say a few words on behalf of sailors. Having served the country for 20 years, they found themselves, at the early age of 38, unable to obtain any but the most casual employment at inadequate remuneration —employers taking advantage of the fact that they had a small pension. This was a most unfortunate result, considering their generally good characters, robust health, and willingness to work. Some expression of sympathy with them by an official representative of the Admiralty would be much appreciated. For himself he could not impress too strongly upon employers what a

  1429
  splendid body of men they were. In a business with which he was connected, employment had been given preferentially to sailors for a number of years, not only as doorkeepers but in other capacities, and some of the men had been found to possess such admirable qualifications that they had been risen to higher positions, and even to the control of departments; and the firm considered that they had been exceptionally fortunate in obtaining the services, at the early age of 30, of a number of men who had received a valuable training at the expense; of the country. If the Admiralty were to take some steps to make known to employers that such men were available they might find better employment for many of them. This would be beneficial not only to the men but also to the State itself. It must be detrimental to the services that there should be in the country a number of unemployed men who had served the State in the Army and Navy; and therefore both the State and the men would benefit by opening up better prospects on their discharge.
  SIR H. HAVELOCK-ALLANwished to reciprocate from the Ministerial side of the House what had been said as to the claims of the sailors. In no way were the Army and Navy more closely connected than the mutual desire that the services should be equally recognised and that the country should make provision for those who had honourably served it by land and sea. In this matter he was himself somewhat of a painful survival, because he brought the subject before the House on the 1st of May, 1876, by moving a Resolution on behalf of soldiers, sailors, and marines. The result was the appointment of a Select Committee, the results of whose inquiries anticipated what had been said to-night in support of this Motion. It was a reproach to successive Governments that in the meantime practically nothing had been done. The Committee of 1876 consisted of 23 selected Members of the House of Commons and was presided ever by Mr. Childers. It sat through the Session of 1876, and part of the Session of 1877, reporting in the July of that year. The Report stated:—
  " There is reason to believe that if it were understood that a considerable portion of civil

  1430
  employment were to be given to soldiers and sailors when their service had expired the effect on recruiting would be good, and some men of better stamp might be induced to enter the Army."
  Further, the Committee expressed
  "The earnest hope that their recommendations would be taken into consideration by the Departments concerned with as little delay as possible."
  That little delay had occupied the modest period of 20 years. ["Hear, hear!"] With the honourable exception of what had been done by the hon. Member for North-East Manchester, succeeding Governments had practically ignored that Report. ["No," from Mr. WOOD-ALL.] This question was entirely divested from all Party feeling. [Cheers.] It represented interests common, not only to every constituency, but to every class. The later Committee which reported in 1895, pointed out that since the Report of the Committee of 1876, the short service system had greatly developed, and the question had become more difficult; and that in view of the demand for higher wages, the carrying out of the recommendations of the Committee would not only increase the efficiency of the soldiers, but also be of great advantage to the State. He did not wish to impute any want of sympathy on this question to the present Government. Lord Lansdowne had shown an earnest desire to carry out the. recommendations of the Committees, and the Under Secretary for War was deeply impressed with the importance of this as a national question. But the cardinal point was that pointed out by the Committee—that since the introduction of the short service system, and 16,000 men were every year passing into the Reserve, the difficulty of the question had become greater. The employment of soldiers and sailors who had served 21 years had received some recognition. All that could be done was done; and at the War Office and Admiralty all the patronage was given to old soldiers and sailors. It was not of those Departments that complaint was made, but of the vis inertia of the other Departments. The crux of the question now was the employment of the Reserve soldier; and the greatest obstacle to the enlistment of a physically better class of men was this dire uncertainty as to

  1431
  civil employment at the expiration of the time with the colours. No complaint whatever was made of the moral calibre of the men in the Army at present. They were not at all deficient either in character or in zeal, but they were lamentably deficient in physique. There were some things which it was still in the power of the War Office to do, and in which they would have the support of the services of every right-thinking man in the country. By giving employment to reservists an end might be put to that evil so greatly deprecated, of battalions attenuated by men taken out of the active ranks for service. Then, in a Department with which the War Office had a great deal to do, there were many vacancies which ought to be exclusively given to Reserve soldiers— he referred to Woolwich Arsenal. There, some 12,000 men were employed, and though he did not say that old soldiers were capable of filling the places of skilled artisans, there were, undoubtedly, 4,000 or 6,000 places which might with great advantage be so filled. A still greater field of labour was the great railways, and in this connection he thought it would be worth while to have in the War Office an officer whose sole duty it should be to place himself in communication with the great railway companies for the purpose of finding places for large numbers of Reserve soldiers.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYremarked that the friends of this cause would be in a far better position if successive Governments, even if they had not the power absolutely to give them the help they demanded, had, at all events given them the information they asked for. If they had a Return, showing exactly the amount of employment that had been given, the offices that were contributing to the employment of old soldiers and sailors, the replies given by the large industrial employers of labour to requests for employment, and, above all, gibbetting in public those firms which had declined to employ old soldiers and sailors, the position would be more satisfactory. It was a pity that information of that sort had not been eagerly given instead of being extorted from the reluctance of successive Governments. With reference to the trade education given to soldiers
  1432
  while in barracks, he reminded the House that we drew three parts of our recruits from the agricultural labouring population, and if it was remembered that it was essential, under present conditions, that these men should go back to agricultural labour, how absurd it was to think that in five or seven years, they could teach these men a trade which would stand between them and the necessity of reverting to agricultural labour. It was true that they were disqualified from taking front rank as agricultural labourers after they were discharged. We could not plough up the barrack yards, and we could not turn the Army horses into plough horses, so as to teach the soldiers to earn good agricultural wages after their time was over. It was not creditable to this country or to successive Governments that voluntary associations had to take the leading work in this matter. Reference had been made to regimental associations. They gave their regimental officers poor pay enough for the work they had to do, and yet they expected them to take the additional burden of contributing to find employment for the old soldiers who passed out of the ranks. Two-thirds of the old soldiers who applied for service in the police were rejected as unfit. That meant either that the treatment of the soldiers while in the ranks made them physically unfit, or that the standard of fitness in the Army was so poor that the soldier was physically unfit when he came in. On one or other horn of the dilemma they were impaled. He did not think the House realised fully the unfairness of the system as it now stood, as between the soldier and civil life. He would take two men, A and C. "A" was a young man of 18 years who joined the Army and served six years. At 24 he applied to go into the police force, and, being accepted, had to complete 26 years before he could get a pension. He would then be 50 years old, and would have served 32 years. His comrade of the same age, instead of serving in the Army, served six years in the Post Office. He was able to retire after 29 years and 9 months' service on a full pension. Take the case of a man who had served 12 years in the army, as compared with the man who had served the same number of years in the Post Office. As the

  1433
  service was now conducted, they placed a severe penalty on the soldier and sailor merely because they had served Her Majesty. There ought to be no hesitation in remedying this state of things by an official of a sufficiently high position, because it was grossly unfair and manifestly wrong. He hoped it was not likely that those who professed a willingness to do something for the soldiers and sailors would allow that state of things to continue. They had been asked for suggestions as to how the unfortunate officials were to render help in this matter. There were certain suggestions which might be offered. The limit of age in most Civil Service appointments was about 20. Would it not be possible to throw those appointments open to soldiers up to the age of 30? Again, candidates for certain divisions of the Civil Service should produce, along with their certificates of birth and good character, a certificate showing that they had served a sufficient amount of time in one of the services. Let the House consider the enormous benefit which would be done to our territorial regimental system if such an Amendment as this was introduced in our military and naval regulations. Supposing it were possible by a better-managed system to provide for employing in the same districts and the same territorial centres, soldiers discharged from the territorial regiments in the railway stations or the large factories in the local districts. The men would be largely supplied from the ranks of those who had passed through the territorial forces, and nothing would do so much to double or even treble our recruiting chances as such a system. The jealous, narrow-minded objections on the part of representatives of other sections of the labouring population had been demonstrated to be idle and foolish. The labouring population recognised that they themselves supplied a great quantity of these men, and they would not be slow to recognise that what would benefit this class of soldier, would benefit their own class both directly and indirectly. The outcome of their discussion must be an absolutely general acknowledgment that it was of paramount importance to this country to have a thoroughly effective Army. They wanted it to be effective not only by its
  1434
  physical capabilities, but by its intelligence, its power of adaptation in any circumstances in which our wars had to be waged. The Army was asking for increased intelligence and better education from the men who entered its ranks; but the authorities could not help acknowledging that in proportion as they got that increased intelligence and better education, they would find the men turning over the question in their minds, and asking, "what is to become of me after I have given the best years of my life to the State?" If it was found that the only answer they could give to the question was "I have to take my chance of occasional employment here and there," the soldiers would naturally say, "I will acquire this intelligence and better education, but I will use it where I can do so to better account." He hoped the House would not be put off with the dull, tiresome reiterations that something would be done at some time, but that it would hear some statement pointing to an immediate, definite, and decided advance on the lines they had invited the House to take in this Resolution.
  *MR. W. WOODALLwished to utter a respectful protest against the assumption, for which he thought rather ungenerous expression had been given, that there was any difference of opinion between the Parties in that House, as to the importance of this question, or as to the continuity of its treatment by successive Governments. It would be an ideal state of things if, when inviting young men to enlist, they could give any kind of assurance that the soldier, after completing his term of service with the colours, would obtain suitable civil employment. No one who had any knowledge of this question in its practical aspects could suppose that that ideal could be realised in a free country like this. They were told that the young conscript on the Continent, after serving his term of compulsory service, went back to his employment, and that the discipline and order to which he had been subjected under military command rendered him more serviceable than ever. But it should be remembered that in Germany, France, and other countries the conscripts were drawn from all ranks of the people, whereas here our

  1435
  soldiers were drawn in the main from the ranks of unskilled workers, and during their term of service they were apt to forget even such skill as they might have acquired in some industrial employment or other before enlistment. They left the Army by no means so well qualified for civil employment as those who desired to serve them would wish. It was due to the late Mr. Stanhope to recognise in a very special manner the efforts which he made to benefit the discharged soldier. ["Hear, hear!"] There was a memorable meeting at the War Office at which he secured the presence and assistance of Sir Henry Oakley, and the representatives of the great railway companies. There could be no doubt that these gentlemen had behaved most patriotically, and taken infinite pains to find employment for old soldiers. Their experience was particularly valuable. It had established the fact that in certain departments of railway service the soldier was eminently useful, and that in others it was idle to attempt to put him in competition with the ordinary labourer. The soldier was a very good man in connection with the passenger service and as a porter, but according to Sir Henry Oakley he was not a satisfactory worker when set to the laborious tasks which were ordinarily performed by ruder men. With regard to what had been done by the Post Office, it was only just to Mr. Arnold Morley to say that he carried on the system initiated by Mr. Raikes, and continued by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, with a most earnest and sedulous desire to fulfil the wishes of that House. It was true that Mr. Arnold Morley had to abandon the idea of military service for telegraph messengers, but why? Because he found that the objection of parents to the condition that these youths should go into the Army was very strong, and that the supply of young men whose services he desired to secure fell off considerably. In every other respect the Post Office in recent years had done its very best. [Sir JAMES FERGUSSON: "The number of posts came down to 400 last year."] There could be no doubt that the Post Office had had to contend against the difficulties incidental to the soldiers' habits. It was vain to pursue ideals in the face of the substantial evidence which
  1436
  went to show that the practice regulating the payment of pensions did undoubtedly interfere most inconveniently with the men's discharge of their duties. The spirit of camaraderie which led a man who met an old companion-in-arms to drink with him incapacitated that man for the discharge of duties, which required regularity, trustworthiness, and punctuality. As messengers in public offices, as watchmen, care-takers and police, as well as porters at passenger stations, old soldiers were very desirable men, but when all the vacancies in those positions were filled there was still a large number of men for whom employment had to be found. It was suggested that contractors under Government should be appealed to to employ old soldiers; but here they were confronted with a difficulty. A Resolution of the House required a contractor for Government work to pay the current rate of wages, and in answer to such an appeal he would say:—"You require me to pay the current rate of wages. These men are good in their way, but they are not as competent as the labourers I desire to employ, and I am willing to pay them what they are worth." That was a very serious difficulty in proceeding in that direction. Then there was the question of the employment of these men in Government factories. The late Government had wisely thought right to give an increase of half-a-crown a week in the minimum wages in the factories at Woolwich and elsewhere in order to enable those who had to select men for employment to make a choice from the best. That had the desired effect, though it placed a difficulty in the way of the employment of old soldiers; but he thought it would be possible, in such a Department as the Ordnance Stores, as distinguished from the Ordnance Factories, to reserve a very large proportion of the places for men who had served in the ranks. He wished to dismiss from the mind of his hon. Friend the Member for Devonport, who took so much interest in the welfare of the sailor, any kind of feeling that the seaman formed any part of the difficulty which occupied their minds that night. The evidence before the Committee on that point was conclusive. While a multitude of Reservists and pensioners

  1437
  and old soldiers came under the notice of Boards of Guardians throughout the country, it was the rarest thing in the world to find an old sailor among the applicants for charity. The old sailor was so handy a man that he was much sought after. He wished some method could be devised by which some industrial training could be introduced into the ordinary life of the soldier, which would better fit him for his subsequent civil life. He joined in everything that had been said as to the improved character of the troops. The zealous and constant attention paid by the officers to their physical and moral life, their recreation, education, and general elevation, turned the men out, when they had completed their service, infinitely better than could have been dreamed of 20 or 30 years ago. But, on the other hand, they had lived under a system of discipline, which when they came to face the ordinary struggle for a livelihood found them very helpless indeed. All who were interested in the welfare of old soldiers must offer their grateful acknowledgments to the Society for the Employment of Old Soldiers for their exertions in their favour, and he hoped that they might long continue to render their valuable services in that direction. While conscious of the difficulties that lay in the way of his doing so, he hoped that the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War would do what he could to promote the interests of the soldiers who had left the colours. He thought it would be possible to reserve a large proportion of Government employment for men who had served in the ranks, if they would accept a rate of wages adequate to the services they were able to render, and which would not bring them into contact with the wages in the ordinary labour market, or into conflict with the principles of Trade Unions. He wished that some method could be devised by which the soldier could be trained so as to fit him to take an honourable and independent position in the civil life to which he returned after leaving the colours.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid, that the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down had made a speech which appeared to be in favour of the Motion, but he could have wished that the hon. Gentleman had been a little more direct in the advice he
  1438
  had given, because although undoubtedly the hon. Gentleman had made a good many suggestions in the course of his address, he had hardly told the House how far he was disposed to approve of the terms of the Motion under discussion. He hoped that it did not need the assurance of his right hon. Friend the Member for East Manchester (Mr. Balfour) that those who were connected with the War Office needed no conversion in this matter. It was the feeling of the War Office that their first public duty was to see that these old soldiers should have the means given them of earning their living when they obtained their discharge from the Army. When they came to discuss this subject, however, he felt bound to point out to the House that the terms of the Motion merely touched the fringe of the question. When hon. Members talked of the obligation upon the Government to provide employment for discharged soldiers, he must remind them that there were 15,000 or 16,000 soldiers discharged, every year, and, therefore, that even if the Government were to give every appointment for which such men could be considered eligible, to discharged soldiers, they would probably be unable to find employment for more than one-tenth of the number. All that the Government-could hope to do in the circumstances was to set an example of employing such men, in order to get the idea taken up by private firms. The Government had been asked to give something more than a mere explanation of the circumstances surrounding the question, and to show their sympathy with these men, by giving some tangible, definite proof of their willingness to forward this very important work. There had already been two Parliamentary Committees appointed to consider this subject, that of 1876 and that of 1894. With regard to the latter Committee, he could only say that if it had had to deal with Military Questions alone, it would not have been possible to select a better Committee; but, unfortunately, that Committee was not sufficiently representative, and it contained hardly any men having Departmental experience. The Committee had another misfortune in the frequent change of its Chairman, and when the untimely accident of last June occurred it was suddenly brought

  1439
  to a close and had to wind up its evidence. The result was that there were some points which might have been more fully considered, and it would be impossible for the Government to accept offhand the recommendations made by that Committee. They had, however, considered the whole subject to see how they could endeavour to make some general provision which would be likely to have the effect in various parts of the country of providing for these men. They recognised that the authorities of the Army at the War Office were responsible for focussing the public interest which was felt in this matter, but it was not possible for the Government to undertake to find employment for every man who joined the Army. They could not undertake to open a sort of registry office to which every man might come and insist upon being found work. But they were prepared to do what they could. The Secretary of State had laid down that there should be established at the War Office, under the Inspector General of Recruiting, Sir Francis Grenfell, what he might call a bureau, and this officer would be charged with the duties connected with the employment of discharged soldiers. ["Hear, hear!"] The first duty of that officer and those who assisted him would be to turn his attention to the characters which were given to soldiers when they left the service. However useful were these characters for military purposes, they did not convey to a private employer all that he had a right to know in. regard to those whom he took into his service. There must be, therefore, some discretion allowed to the Commanding Officer, or some other officer, to supplement the information given on the discharge, and they believed that this information would be effective, and that the officer would be able to see that the man who claimed the character had not bought or exchanged it. The military authorities were also carefully considering whether non-commissioned officers or deserving men might be put in a separate class, so as to secure for them the reservation of certain appointments, with private employers or in the public service, to positions of trust. The next duty of this officer would be to assist the National Society in providing accommodation for branches, and he would
  1440
  have the important function of carrying on the correspondence with the large companies and private employers as to places which were desired for re tired soldiers. They would like to see the officer in charge of a large district in touch with the railway companies in the neighbourhood, and he might say how warmly the Government recognised the patriotic spirit shown by the great railway companies in regard to this matter since 1892. Then the same officer would have the function of putting in a claim for any fresh Government appointment from time to time. He would keep watch, and he would see that it waxed of filled up without putting forward a Candidate where he had the chance; or, in the case of an increase of the staff, it would be his duty to look after that. He would also draw out a form recommended by the Committee last year to be given to the soldier showing the employment open to him and the ordinary number of vacancies that he might expect to find. He believed that that was a system which would cause a great development in the work of the National Association, the sum apportioned to which they proposed to increase by £250 to be expended on branches in localities where adequate subscriptions were raised to meet the contribution by the Government. Something had been said with regard to technical instruction in the Army. The sailor was handy, and never had difficulty in finding employment; on the other hand, the ordinary soldier found great difficulty in competing with those who had learned trades in civil life. He hoped that the outcome of that Debate would have this effect—that they should have support in raising their voices, as they had done, against the assumption that they had no right, inside the barracks, to teach soldiers to do anything for themselves which would prevent someone else outside earning something. [Cheers.] This mischievous idea, which had been set on foot to some extent by the trade unions, was carried to a ridiculous extent. Under a resolution which had been sent to him from a part of the country which was always pressing for an increased number of soldiers, it would be wrong that the soldier should black

  1441
  his own boots, or even shave himself. [A laugh.] It was obvious that the commanding officer must not be too closely hampered by the opinions of the trade unions, and if he could give on any barrack services instruction to soldiers which would help them in carpentering or any such trade he ought not to be interfered with. On the other hand, he took notice of what had fallen from the hon. Gentleman opposite. There were places which soldiers could fill, and yet not be able to earn "fair wages" as compared with others, and he hoped that point would be borne in mind if any Committee were appointed to consider the subject of fair wages. When he came the terms of the Motion itself he found it difficult to accept the portion relating to the failure of successive Governments to find employment for these men. His right hon. Friend the Member for North-east Manchester had shown that there had not been such complete failure to provide civil employment for time-expired soldiers as the Motion before the House declared. Efforts had been made by the, Post Office, but subsequent events showed it was impossible to extend them. The limit of permanent employment at the Post Office to telegraph messengers entering the Army had made room for the employment of 1,000 Army Reserve men as postmen in one year. But complaints were received from postmasters, not only in London, but from all parts of the country, that telegraphic messengers as a class were deteriorating in consequence, and the better class of lads would not accept employment under the new conditions, and among those who did there was a feeling that they had not the certainty they had before of employment in the Post Office for the rest of their lives. He regretted that the Post Office discontinued the arrangement; but, if the telegraph messengers deteriorated, obviously the Post Office service suffered. There was an undoubted reduction in the number of time-expired soldiers employed in consequence. The War Office had no right or power to force on the Post Office a system which resulted in an inferior class of men for the largest class they employed. With regard to service counting for pension, negotiations were going on, and, so far as the War Office was able, it would secure equal treatment for
  1442
  soldiers with other servants of the Crown. The returns with regard to the employment of old soldiers and sailors as messengers to Government offices had improved, and more than half of the messengers were men who had been in the Army or Navy. Twelve out of 16 messengers appointed at the National Portrait Gallery were of that class. It was not practicable to say that in every Department of the public service every appointment should be given to time-expired soldiers or sailors. All he could say was that there was no Department on which the War Office would not bring, by means of the new organisation they were establishing, the strongest pressure they could to bear to secure every appointment that fell vacant for old soldiers and sailors. Already in the public service they had one-half, and they hoped there would be more. He hoped his hon. Friend would think it sufficient if the House resolved:—
  "That this House calls on Her Majesty's Government to make all possible provision for the employment of Reserve or time-expired soldiers and sailors of good character by allotting to them preferentially such posts in the public services as they were competent to fill."
  He believed that expression of opinion would be unanimous on the part of the House. If the hon. Member would be content with the words now suggested, he would take a longer step than had been taken since this subject was first mooted 20 years ago. The Government desired in every way to support the object aimed at and they hoped they had taken steps which would secure the subject being dealt with seriously. They believed that the acceptance and adoption of this Resolution would show the high importance attached to the subject by the Government.
  MR. C. FENWICKsaid he had a great regard for soldiers and sailors, and an equal regard for civilians, and he could not allow the Debate to conclude without putting in a word for civilian workmen. Something had been said about "the ignoble and unpatriotic protests of ordinary workmen." Was it really supposed that men entered the service from patriotic motives alone? Were they not tempted by inducements not offered in industrial pursuits? If so, why should there be created for them preferential advantages when they returned to civil

  1443
  life? ["Hear, hear!"] He wished the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Hanbury) had been in his place, because last year he criticised very severely the idea of creating preferential advantages for soldiers or sailors whose pensions enabled them to compete unfairly with civilian workmen.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir M. HICKS BEACH,)said that his right hon. Friend was unavoidably prevented from being present.
  MR. FENWICKaccepted that statement, and said he regretted the absence of the right hon. Gentleman, because it would have been interesting to hear his opinions in reference to this Motion.
  *MR. ARNOLD-FORSTERrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put;" but Mr. SPEAKER withheld his assent, because he thought the House was prepared to come to a decision without that Motion.
  By leave of the House, Mr. ARNOLD-FORSTER withdrew the Motion and moved in its stead the Resolution suggested by Mr. Brodrick:—
  "That this House calls upon Her Majesty's Government to make all possible provision for the employment of reserve or time-expired soldiers and sailors of good characters, by allotting to them preferentially such posts in the public service as they are competent to fill."
  Resolved, That this House calls upon Her Majesty's Government to make all possible provision for the employment of reserve or time-expired soldiers and sailors of good character by allotting to them preferentially such posts in the public service as they are competent to fill.

  CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
  LETTING OF SPORTING BIGHTS BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
  ABATTOIRS BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
  SPURIOUS SPORTS BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
  RIGHTS OF WAY PROCEDURE (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Monday 4th May.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (QUALIFICATION OF VOTERS) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday next.
  WEST HIGHLAND RAILWAY [GUARANTEE].
  Committee thereupon deferred till Friday.
  PUBLIC OFFICES (SITE) [EXPENSES].
  Committee thereupon deferred till Thursday.
  AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE (MARKS) BILL.
  Adjourned Debate on Motion for Committal to Select Committee [18th March] further adjourned till Monday next.
  FISHERIES ACTS (NORFOLK AND SUFFOLK) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  BOARDS OF GUARDIANS AND LABOURERS (IRELAND) BILL.
  Committee deferred till To-morrow.
  LAW AGENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  MILITARY LANDS ACT (1892) AMEND- MENT BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  CONSOLIDATED FUND (No. 9) BILL.
  Read the Third time and passed.
  DISEASES OF ANIMALS BILL.
  Committee deferred till Thursday.

  COURT OF CRIMINAL APPEAL BILL
  Second Reading deferred from Tomorrow till Wednesday 29th April.
  House adjourned at a quarter after Twelve o'clock.

Preamble
The House re-assembled after the Easter Holidays.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (DETERMINA- TION OF DIFFERENCES) BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.—[No. 54.]
PUBLIC HEALTH BILL.
Brought from the Commons; read 1a, and to be printed.—[No. 55.]
STATUTE LAW REVISION BILLS AND CONSOLIDATION BILLS.
A Message ordered to be sent to the House of Commons to propose that a Joint Committee do meet in Committee Room A on Wednesday the 29th instant, at Twelve o'clock.
ADMINISTRATION OF ESTATES (CONSOLIDATION) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to consolidate enactments relating to the administration of the estates of deceased persons—Was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read 1a, and to be printed.—[No. 53.]

DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LANDS (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without Amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a on Thursday next.
House adjourned at Twenty-five minutes before Five o'clock, to Thursday next, a Quarter past Four o'clock.