Sitting of 14 April 1896

Preamble
The House met at Two of the clock.
AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE (IRELAND).
Return [presented 9th April] to be printed.—(No. 136.]
ALIEN IMMIGRANTS.
Return [presented 13th April] to be printed. —[No. 137.]

ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS.
Copy ordered,—
"Of Memorandum stating the nature of the proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 1) Bill."— (Mr. Ritchie.)
Copy presented accordingly; to He upon the Table, and to be printed.— [No. 138.]
Copy ordered,—
"Of Memorandum stating the nature of the proposals contained in the Provisional Orders included in the Electric, Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 2) Bill." — (Mr. Ritchie.)
Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.— [No. 139.]

PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  EAST LONDON WATER (HEIGHT OF SUPPLY) BILL (BY ORDER).
  Order for Second Reading read.
  MR. E. H. PICKERSGILLsaid, the sanitary officers of East London bore testimony to the mischief against which the Bill was directed. One officer stated that owing to the insufficiency of the pressure the tenants on the upper floors of
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  buildings had to borrow water from those on the lower floors, and another stated that for the same reason an offensive and dangerous nuisance was caused by the unflushed condition of the water-closets. The widespread interest which was taken in the question was shown by the fact that almost every local authority in the East of London had urged the London County Council to remedy the existing evil. The reason why the East London Water Company was singled out was because they had a lower statutory obligation imposed upon them in regard to the pressure of their supply than any other metropolitan water company. The general law was that every water company should be required to provide such pressure as would supply water to the top floors of the highest building in the district, but by the private Act of the East London Water Company, which was as old as 1853, it was prescribed that the statutory height of the pressure should be only 40 ft. above the pavement. The New River Water Company, which practically supplied the same district as the East London Water Company, had a statutory obligation to provide a pres- sure of 70 ft. The secretary of the Peabody Trust, which erected a number of blocks of buildings in Glasshouse Street, stated that at first the East London Company agreed that the New River Company should supply the buildings, and while the supply came from the New River Company there were no complaints. But after a while the East London Company withdrew their consent and supplied the buildings themselves. "Then," said the secretary, '' my troubles began.'' His name appeared first on the back of the Bill. The Vestry of Bethnal Green asked him whether he would be willing to back a Bill about to be introduced by the London County Councill dealing with the height of supply of the East London Water Company. Knowing the vital interests of his constituents in the matter, he gave his consent. He received no communication from the London County Council, and he was not consulted in drawing up the Bill. But even if the form of the Bill were better, even if it were less controversial, he could not ask the House to read it a Second time in face of the extraordinary

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  fact that, although the Bill was promoted by the London County Council, and although the Parliamentary Committee of the Council had approved it and instructed the agent to introduce it, yet not a single member of the County Council who was also a Member of Parliament, was willing to back the Bill. He did not think that the House and those Members whose names were on the back of the Bill had been treated with proper respect. In these circumstances it was inevitable that the Bill should be withdrawn. A good cause would be prejudiced by going to a Division, for he believed that there was urgent need for a regulating Bill in this matter. The House, by its recent action, had indefinitely postponed the purchase policy; and there was a fair and open field for that policy of regulation to which a large section of the London County, Council were willing to agree. If the Second Reading had not been formally moved, he should have wished to have moved for the discharge of the Order and the withdrawal of the Bill.
  COLONEL A. LOCKWOODprotested against the manner in which the hon. Member for Bethnal Green had made a violent ex-parte statement against the East London Water Company at the same time that he withdrew the Bill on which it was founded. He protested, too, against the East London Water Company being branded as unwilling to supply the wants of the poor people in the East end of London. The height of the pavement in the metropolitan area varied enormously—from 10 to 110 feet above Trinity House high water mark; and the 40 feet above the pavement, which was the height to which the East London Company had to supply water, was equivalent to a height of 150 feet above high-water mark. He held a letter from the valuer of the London County Council thanking the Company for what they had done to supply the Capel Street Dwellings. The recent Inquiry by the Local Government Board had shown that the charges previously brought against the company were unfounded; they had done their best to give a continuous supply to dwellers in the East end, and the hon. Member for Bethnal Green was exceeding his rights when, in withdrawing the Bill, he attacked the company as he had done.
  852
  He was bound to admit that he had a small interest in the company, but that was no reason why he should not defend them when he believed that they were right. Every dweller in the East end, even at the height mentioned in the Bill, was well supplied with water. The County Council had attempted to repeal a public and private Act without making any expert examination of the facts, and in doing so they had not raised themselves in the estimation of those who would like to support them when they were serving the public.
  MR. H. S. SAMUEL, said, that he had been asked by the sanitary authority of his district to support this Bill, and he consented because he believed that the public welfare demanded a water supply to the greatest height which buildings were allowed to attain. But he recognised that Her Majesty's Government had introduced a Bill creating a water trust whose first care would be to look after matters of this kind; and as there was not a single member of the County Council whose name was on the (back of the Bill, he must join with the hon. Member for Bethnal Green in his protest against the treatment which the backers of the Bill had received at the hands of the Council.
  Motion made, and Question, '' That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and negatived.
  Bill withdrawn.

  LONDON AND NORTH-WESTERN RAILWAY BILL (BY ORDER).
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  MR. D. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid, he found that the Bill proposed that further facilities should be given to the London and North Western Railway with regard to the Chester and Holyhead Railway, and that in respect of a proposed extension of that section, the same rates and charges should be allowed as the company had power to charge at present under the Act of 1891. Now, by the Act of 1891

  853

  exceptional rates and charges were sanctioned in respect of that line of 2d. per ton per mile, the usual rate being 1¼d. He objected very strongly to the exceptional charges in respect of that particular branch of the line. He did not believe any case had been shown for it. He knew that the contention of the company was that this line cost a good deal more than any other line in respect of which the charge of l¼d. was made. He believed it was a very expensive line, but the London and North-Western purchased it very cheaply indeed from the original promoters, so that whatever case the original Chester and Holyhead Railway Company might have made in this House for an exceptional charge in respect of the conveyance of passengers and goods, that argument had no weight so far as the London and North-Western were concerned. Unfortunately, too, that company were using the powers already given them in order to oust out the sea trade in particular ports. There was a branch of the Chester and Holyhead Railway which ran down to Carnarvon. There they were entitled to charge 2d. per ton per mile, and they used their maximum powers to the fullest extent for the purpose of preventing the conveyance of slates from Carnarvon harbour, and compelling the owners of the slate quarries to send them along the whole length of the line to any particular part of Great Britain. He should not divide against the Second Reading, but, if necessary, when the Bill came back from Committee he should move Amendments for the reduction of the rates and charges complained of.
  MR. HERBERT LEWISasked the hon. Baronet opposite, who was a director of the London and North-Western, to give some explanation as to the reason why differentia] rates between the Chester and Holyhead section and the rest of the system of the company were still maintained. A few years ago the company voluntarily agreed to equalise the rates on the Chester and Holyhead system with the other portions of the London and North-Western system, but they excepted coal and minerals from the arrangement, and he wished to know the reasons for this. The company
  854
  alleged that it cost a good deal to maintain the existing line along the North Wales seaboard. However that might he, this line provided their main artery between England and Ireland, and by means of the Chester and Holyhead line they secured the great Irish trade, and, moreover, their position near the coast line practically excluded every other company from that coast line. The London and North-Western had, indeed, a valuable monopoly along that coast. They also urged that with the sea on one side they did not derive so much traffic as if the line ran through the interior part of the country. But the sea had been the means of bringing a large number of works to the North Wales coast owing to the cheapness of water transit, and in consequence the London and North-Western Railway received a large amount of traffic which otherwise they would not secure. Having regard to all the circumstances, including the interests of the trade and agriculture of the district, he submitted the company ought not to charge a higher rate for the conveyance of trucks of coal and minerals than on other portions of the system. The present disparity of rates ought not to be allowed any longer.
  MR. W. FIELDcomplained of the policy of the London and North-Western Railway in refusing to put on third-class carriages in connection with the mail trains. This company received an enormous subsidy for carrying the mails from Euston to Holyhead, and, instead of giving Irish Members and the Irish people generally any advantage from that enormous subsidy, they absolutely charged a higher passenger rate from Dublin to Euston than would be allowed in any other country in the world. He appealed to hon. Members who had Imperialistic sympathies, and who said that the Irish Members ought to be in touch with the Imperial Parliament, to regard this question from a broader point of view. The Irish Members wanted facilities to come to Westminster. [Laughter.] They did not wish to stay there, but so long as the House obliged Irish representatives to attend, he said it was unfair that Parliament should allow a private company of monopolists to exact taxation from the Irish Members while coming to discharge their legislative duties. It was really absurd that

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  while the railways were the property of the State elsewhere, the Members of the Legislatures having the privilege to travel free, here obstacles were put in the way of Members travelling by the Company's lines. The question was not to be viewed lightly, for so serious was it in his judgment, that he advised his colleagues from Ireland not only to press the matter to a Division, but to resist this unjust taxation and to oppose every Railway Bill that came before the House, until justice to the Irish Members was obtained. He asked for an assurance on the part of those who represented the London and North-Western Railway that something would be done to facilitate the attendance of Irish Members in the discharge of their legislative duties.
  *MR. J. JORDANalso protested against the action of the London and North-Western Railway Company in refusing to put third-class carriages on trains to and from Holy-head. It was most unjust and unfair that anyone coming from Ireland with a third-class ticket should not be able to travel on the mail trains from Holyhead, and it was also only fair that third-class passengers should have permission to travel back by any train. He would join in blocking Railway Bills until the companies gave travellers all the facilities possible. No company ought to get a Bill passed through the House unless a provision was inserted allowing Members of Parliament to be carried even free when employed in their public Parliamentary duties.
  *SIR WILLIAM HOULDSWORTHdid not say that the questions which had been raised were not questions which might fairly be addressed to the House; but he could not see the logical connection between those questions and the opposition to this Bill. The Bill was intended simply to widen a section of the railway between Chester and Holyhead, and to facilitate the traffic coming from Ireland to England, and to render it more safe and certain. As to passenger rates, it was the interest of a railway company to give the greatest facilities for traffic, and to do all they could to encourage and to foster traffic from whatever direction it might arise. He assured hon. Members that the question of passenger rates had been carefully
  856
  considered. Every effort was made to charge rates which would serve the interests of the company. Those interests were best served not by high, exorbitant, and excessive rates, but by rates which would create the greatest amount of traffic possible. As to mineral rates, he thought hon. Members had forgotten that the question of rates on merchandise of all kinds had been carefully considered by the Board of Trade and by a joint Committee of the Houses of Parliament. Tribunals and machinery had been set up in order that any grievance on the part of the traders in any part of the country might be heard; and therefore the House of Commons did not appear to him to be a suitable place to raise such questions. The Board of Trade gave an increased rate on the minerals in question in consideration of circumstances that were brought before the Department, and which were considered sufficient to entitle the company to charge them. That opinion might be good or it might be bad, but at any rate it was the answer which he had to give to the hon. Member. With regard to third-class carriages on mail trains, the answer was a simple one. No doubt the company would be glad to increase their traffic on the mail trains; but they had to consider carefully the contracts they had entered into with the Postmaster General to deliver the mails expeditiously and punctually. It was manifest that if they added third-class carriages on the mail trains, with a larger number of passengers, the burden of the trains would be greatly increased, possibly resulting in pressure of traffic and unpunctuality. There were only two ways of meeting the difficulty. Either there must be a heavily-burdened train which was apt to be late, or they must divide the train into two portions. If the train was divided into two portions, there was great danger that the third-class passengers who went by the second train might not arrive in London at all, because the steamship company was under a separate contract as soon as it received the mails on board to go off and not wait for passengers.
  MR. W. FIELDsaid, that last Sunday the company carried a theatrical company of third-class passengers to Holyhead. If this was done for a

  857
  theatrical company why should it not be done for Members of Parliament? [Laughter.]
  *SIR W. HOULDSWORTHsaid, that the safe and punctual transmission of traffic on the railway would be seriously imperilled if the trains were overburdened. There were already two express trains passing from England to Ireland every day and vice versa—four trains in all; and on those trains third-class passengers were conveyed. The facilities, therefore, were very considerable. There was every disposition on the part of the London and North Western Railway Company to increase its passenger traffic, but it was of the greatest importance to this country and to Ireland that letters should be conveyed day by day as expeditiously as possible. He was afraid that it would be impossible to provide the facilities which the hon. Member desired for passengers, and at the same time to insure the observance of the conditions under which the mails were carried. There was nothing exceptional in the conduct of the company in connection with this matter.
  MR. T. LOUGHdid not think that the observations of the hon. Baronet had done much in the direction of furthering the cause which he had at heart. The hon. Baronet's statements as to the traffic charges were not satisfactory.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! This cannot become a general discussion on the passenger traffic and charges on the whole line. The objection must be confined to the fact that certain trains passing over this portion of the line will not carry third class passengers. There cannot be a general discussion.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE: I understand, Sir, that the discussion may extend also to the question of the charging of excessive rates for the carriage of minerals and merchandise over this portion of the railway line.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Upon that point it is only open to hon. Members to argue; that there is no reason why an exceptional rate should be charged upon this particular portion of the line. The general charges of the London and
  858
  North Western Railway Company cannot be discussed.
  MR. LOUGHsaid that the hon. Baronet opposite had declared that there was no logical connection between the objections that had been raised and the Bill before the House. There was a connection and it was this. Under this Bill the London and North Western Railway asked for further facilities, and in return the company were asked to provide further facilities for passengers. Hon. Members on his side of the House would not consent to give the facilities that the company asked for unless the company on their side agreed to grant the facilities for which the passengers asked. The hon. Member opposite said that because the Board of Trade allowed the company to charge an extreme rate the company were entitled to charge that rate. To that he could not assent. To say that the company would charge a maximum rate because the Board of Trade permitted it, was not the way to commend this Bill to the favourable consideration of the House. He had himself some experience of the charges of this company. A basket of agricultural produce was sent to him from Ireland every week. The railway charge in Ireland for carrying the basket from the country to Dublin was 4d., and if it were conveyed to London at the same rate he would get it for another shilling, But the London and North Western Railway Company had no bowels of compassion, and made him pay 4s. 2d. The company, he held, ought to follow the good example set by the companies in Ireland in connection with the carriage of agricultural produce. The facilities for third class passenger traffic provided by the company were inadequate, and the reason was that there was no competition. In fact, the passenger accommodation provided on the line between London and Holyhead was worse than that provided on any other line. Travellers to Scotland could go in a corridor train and obtain a splendid dinner for 2s. 6d. Why was there not a corridor train to Holyhead? As he had said, the reason of the inadequate service was that the company enjoyed a monopoly, and Irish and Welsh Members had submitted to the existing state

  859
  of things too long. He proposed to move—
  "That until the London and North Western Company is prepared to give further facilities for goods and passenger traffic with reduced rates, this House is not prepared to extend its powers."
  *MR. SPEAKER: That Amendment would not be in order, because it is a general proposition, and is not confined to the question actually before the House. It raises the general question of the conduct of the London and North Western Railway Company. If the hon. Member likes to move as an Amendment that the Bill be not read a second time until this day six months it is competent for him to do so.
  MR. LOUGHproposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."
  MR. T. M. HEALYcould not agree with his hon. Friend in what he had said in respect to the passenger accommodation provided by the London and North Western Company. He thought that the accommodation for first and second class passengers was excellent. The demands of third class passengers might, he suggested, be met by the abolition of second class accommodation and the substitution of third class carriages. The same facilities for travel as were given to passengers to Scotland ought to be given to passengers to Ireland. As a result of competition some of the third class passenger trains to Scotland actually went faster than the trains that carried the mails. Between London and Holyhead the trains were slower and the fares dearer than they were on the same length of line between London and Edinburgh or Glasgow. He supposed that an Irish Member paid toll to the London and North Western. Railway Company to the amount of £100 every year. This, therefore, was an important subject to them. Then the question of rates was very important to Ireland, for the railway rates were strangling the industries of the country. The London and North Western Company should give Irishmen the same facilities as they gave to Scotch passengers who were not disturbed by a sea passage. He could assure the House that the sea passage
  860
  made Irishmen sick of the Act of Union every time they had to take it.
  MR. C.T. MURDOCHsaid, that this was a general Bill of the London and North-Western Railway, and was of considerable importance to the working of the line; but the only proposal to which objection could be taken was the widening of the line between Chester and Holyhead. The two things of which complaint was made were, first, that there was no third class on the Irish mail; and second, that the rates for minerals and goods were too high. It was not the general custom to place third class carriages on trains devoted especially to carrying the mails, because the heavier the train the greater the danger of unpunctuality. It was suggested that third-class carriages should be put on in place of the second class. But the North-Western Company had arrangements with many other lines, and it would be extremely difficult to abolish the second class unless the change was general throughout the country. The opinion of the most skilled railway managers was that the general feeling of the public was in favour of maintaining the three classes. But it was quite possible that it would be a wise policy on the part of the railway companies to reduce the first and second-class fares. As to the rates for minerals and goods, there were no new powers sought for in the Bill. It was very rare indeed for the companies to charge the maximum rates. He knew from personal experience in countless instances that the greatest satisfaction was derived from conferences between the traders and the goods managers; and that was a much surer way of getting satisfactory rates than anything that could be done in the House or by the Board of Trade. [Mr. LOUGH: ''What about agricultural produce?"] The hon. Member must be aware that all the railway companies, and particularly the Great Western, were doing all they could to meet the difficulty. Objections to the Bill in detail could be discussed in Committee, and no reason had been shown for refusing the Second Reading.
  MR. JOHN BURNSsaid, that he complained of two points in the Bill. The first was Subsection 12 of Clause 31. In every Railway Bill there was a standard clause relating to the

  861
  displacement of workmen under the Artisans' Dwellings Acts. Parliamentary lawyers had generally accepted this clause without hesitation, and had even asked for its extension, rather than its diminution. But this Subsection 12 narrowed down the standard clause by providing that 30s. should be the maximum wage of displaced men for whom the company was bound to find accommodation. In many towns the 30s. standard would not cover the case of many gangers and foremen, and great injustice would be done. The second point was even more objectionable. It was the attempt on the part of the Railway Company to impose the Savings Bank Act of 1858 on the men employed on the new extension and tributary lines. Many of these men had for years subscribed to various friendly societies for sick and unemployed benefit, and for old age superannuation. Now, irrespective of their wishes, they would be compelled to come under the system which the company already had power to apply to their own main line. If their wages were not sufficient to enable them to pay the compulsory contributions under this Savings Bank Act, as well as the voluntary subscriptions which they had long paid, they would have to give up the latter or leave the employment of the company. It was time that this tyranny on the part of the company, in breaking up workmen's voluntary agreements, was put an end to. It should be left to the option of the men whether they would come within the provisions of the Company's Savings Bank Act. He hoped that the hon. Baronet in charge of the Bill (Sir W. Houldsworth) who was always an active sympathiser with working men, would consent to withdraw the two objectionable provisions to which he had referred, or else he should be obliged to divide against the Bill. He felt bound to enter his protest against this action on the part, of a great corporation, who had some 70,000 men in their employ.
  MR. W. ALLANsaid that to say that by putting a third class carriage upon the mail train would delay the mails was an absurdity.
  MR. W. ABRAHAMsaid that the rates charged by the London and North Western Railway Company over a portion of their
  862
  line in North Wales impeded trade if they did not altogether prohibit it. This Debate had come on very opportunely, and he appealed to the Government to assist the House in the matter.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Gentleman cannot enter into a general discussion upon railways.
  MR. W. ABRAHAMsaid that of course he should at once bow to the authority of the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair, but he thought that he should be in order in pointing out that that House had a right to prevent large monopolies like railway companies from imposing unjust rates upon the traffic on certain portions of their lines.
  *MR. J. W. LOWTHERsaid that there was one point to which in justice to the London and North Western Railway he desired to call attention. The hon. Gentleman opposite had called attention to the wording of the section which related to the weekly wage of the workman who would be affected by the clause relating to the dispossession of the labouring classes, and had complained that the average of that weekly wage should be fixed at 30s. What he desired to say was that the company in fixing that sum had followed verbatim et literatim, the words of the Standing Order of the House.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that he rose for the purpose of supporting the Amendment, which had been moved by the hon. Member. No reply had been given by the hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to the points that had been raised in the course of the Debate. One of those points was that higher rates were charged upon this portion of the line than were charged upon the rest of the line. Could not the hon. Gentleman who was in charge of the Bill give the House some explanation why this exceptional charge should be made upon this particular portion of the company's line. The fact was that the company had obtained this portion of their line more cheaply than they had constructed the rest of it. He did not mean to say that it had not originally cost more, but the company had purchased it at a very cheap rate from the original company, who. had been at the expense of constructing it. Notwithstanding the fact that the company received a subsidy

  863
  from the Government of £150,000 for conveying the mails, they charged four times as much in respect of the traffic over this portion of the line than they did with regard to traffic over the rest of their line. The hon. Member for Reading had said that this was a matter of detail that could easily be settled before a Parliamentary Committee. The hon. Member must, however, know how difficult it would be for a few weak slate quarry companies to fight a wealthy railway company like the London and North Western before a Parliamentary Committee. Even if those slate quarry companies could be got to combine, which was a most difficult matter to do, the companies between them would be unable to get together the £20,000 that would be necessary to enable them to enter upon such a contest upon anything like equal terms. They knew what had happened in 1891, when the Board of Trade ought to have offered them assistance. The fact was that in 1891 the Board of Trade was completely captured by the London and North Western Railway Company, and the latter company employed the first Parliamentary Counsel to fight their case. In such circumstances, what could a few weak traders effect against this great company. It was simply idle therefore to say that all these matters could easily be settled before a Parliamentary Committee.
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. C. T. RITCHIE,)said, that he thought that this subject was absolutely exhausted. As far as the Board of Trade were concerned, they saw no reason whatever why this Bill should not be read a second time. The Bill was a Measure which was brought in for the purpose of enabling the London and North Western Railway Company to widen particular sections of their line, and it was as important to the public as it was to the railway company that that should be done. It was objected against the Bill that the rates on some parts of the company's line were not as favourable to traders as they were on other parts of the line, but that was no reason why facilities for traffic on particular sections of the line should not be given, seeing that they would conduce to the public convenience. No doubt higher rates were charged upon the particular portion of the line which
  864
  had been indicated than were charged upon the rest of the line, but those rates had been already sanctioned by Parliament, and it was not proposed to increase them, but merely to continue them. The hon. Gentleman opposite had said that it was impossible for traders to appear upon equal terms with a railway company before a Parliamentary Committee, but as far as the Board of Trade and he himself were concerned, they had shown their view with regard to the question of rates by the representations they had made to the different railway companies, which representations, he was glad to say, had not been without effect. Without expressing any opinion as to whether these particular rates were or were not fair, he could only say that if hon. Members who were interested in the subject would lay their views with regard to it before the Board of Trade, that Department would consider those views, and if they thought it right to do so, would make representations to the London and North Western Railway Company, who would, no doubt, receive those representations in the same spirit in which, he was glad to say, all railway companies received them.
  MR. FIELDpointed out that the hon. Baronet had not met in the smallest way his statement with respect to the rates and charges for passengers. He challenged contradiction of his statement that the passenger rate from Dublin to London was the dearest in the world. Unless he could give some explanation regarding their grievances he should press the matter to a Division.
  MR. SWIFT MACNEILLdeclared that the policy of exclusion of third class passengers on the part of the line between Chester and Holyhead was devised in order to compel persons who, by reason of straitened means or otherwise, wished to travel third, to travel second class, and that that policy of exclusion was possible only because the London and North Western Company had no other company in competition with them. This company exercised their rights in a cowardly manner; in a cowardly manner they trampled on the interests of the poor, because they ran third class carriages where they had competition. The company must be taught that monopolists had their duties as well as their rights. [Cheers.] He

  865
  would venture to tell the House his own experience. In the discharge of his Parliamentary duties he travelled between his home in Ireland and London on the average 16 times a year. When he commenced he travelled first class: now he conscientiously travelled third whenever he could. [Laughter.] He induced all his friends around to travel third, and he did so partly in the interests of economy, but also to deal a slight blow at a monopolist company. [Laughter.] If he saved a couple of pounds on a journey he felt a happier man for the rest of the week. [Laughter.] In 1893—for reasons which he need not go into—for six weeks he left this House on Friday evenings, travelled to Dublin and was back in his place on Monday. If he had wished to travel third under these circumstances he could not. Why Because he had to leave Dublin on the Sunday evening, and because there were no third class carriages attached to the mail on Sunday evening. How satisfactory this was to the Directors! They kept the Sabbath and raised the dividend. [Laughter.] He hoped he had raised the tone of this Debate. [Laughter.]
  *SIR W. HOULDSWORTHrose in his place, and claimed to move, "That the Question be now put."
  Question put, "That the Question be now put"
  The House divided:—Ayes, 221: Noes, 107.—(Division List, No. 96.)
  Question put accordingly, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 207: Noes, 130.—(Division List, No. 97.)
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTSrising to address the House,
  *SIR W. HOULDSWORTHclaimed, "That the Main Question be now put,"
  Main Question put accordingly.
  The House divided:—Ayes, 203; Noes, 124.—(Division List, No. 98.)
  Bill read 2°, and committed.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE, rising to a point of order, intimated that' he intended to move that the vote of the hon. Member for North-West Manchester should be disallowed on the ground that the hon. Baronet had a direct personal and pecuniary interest in the Bill. [Cheers.] He desired to know whether he should make the Motion now or tomorrow, when the hon. Baronet's name would appear in the printed Votes.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is entitled to move it now. [Cheers.]
  MR. LEES KNOWLES: On the point of order, Sir, I should like to ask what that pecuniary interest was, and whether—[Opposition cries of "Order!"]
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman is entitled to raise a point of order. [Cheers.]
  MR. KNOWLES: And whether any Member who has a pecuniary interest as a shareholder in this particular railway company is in the same position as the hon. Member for Manchester.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The question is always one for the House to decide whether an hon. Member has such a direct personal pecuniary interest as to disentitle him to vote.
  MR. LLOYD - GEORGE MR. LLOYD - GEORGE moved, ''That the vote of Sir William Houldsworth be disallowed." By the Standing Orders of the House it was explicitly laid down that no Member was entitled to record his vote upon any question in which he was financially interested. That was a matter of very considerable importance for the purity of their action in the House. If any Member of the legal profession were briefed to state any case in the House and then voted upon it, he had not the slightest doubt hon. Members on the other side would very soon be prepared to raise a question of privilege in connection with such a vote, and one rule should not be applicable to members of the legal profession and another to railway directors. [Cheers.] The hon. Baronet was a member of this company; he came down and asked for a monopoly from the House of Commons which would undoubtedly enhance the value of the property in which he was pecuniarily interested, and, not satisfied with voting in support of a Bill which financially benefited himself, he went to the extent of twice moving the Closure,

  867
  the Speaker declining to accept it on the first occasion. ["Hear, hear!"] He was not criticising either the action of the hon. Baronet himself, who was not merely anxious to vote down Members on the other side of the House who wanted to get equal advantages from these great monopolies, but actually went the length of trying to prevent hon. Members raising their voices against irregularities resulting from these monopolies.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not entitled to refer to the Closure in that way after it has been applied by the vote of the House. It would be impossible to carry out the Standing Order if, immediately after the decision of the House had been taken, reflections were to be made either upon the Member proposing the Closure, or the Chair in assenting to it. The two are so allied together that it is impossible to separate them. [Cheers.]
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEdisclaimed the slightest intention of reflecting upon the action of the Chair. He proceeded to point out that the House had always been scrupulously careful of its honour in cases of this kind. In the matter of the Uganda Railway it was laid down that three hon. Members, who were not directors of the railway at all, but who were interested in the country that was going to be surveyed, ought not to vote on the question. Here the interest of the hon. Baronet was much more direct, he being both a large shareholder and a director of the company concerned. He made no imputation of corrupt motive against the hon. Baronet, but a general principle having been laid down that Members ought not to vote on questions in which they were pecuniarily interested the House ought to adhere to it, whether the subject on which the vote was given referred to Central Africa, Wales, or Ireland. [Cheers. ]
  MR. T. M. HEALYseconded the Motion, contending that this was a matter on which they were entitled to guidance from the Government. It ought not to be made a Party question, for it affected the honour and purity of the House as a whole. In the case of Judge Ross the late Speaker (Mr. Peel) took this remarkable action. Mr. Ross, who was then a Member of the House, proposed to call attention
  868
  to the release by the late Government of prisoners connected with the alleged murder of District-Inspector Martin in Donegal. He called Mr. Speaker Peel's attention to the fact that Mr. Ross had himself been the prosecuting counsel in the case, and, therefore had had at one time an interest in the case. Mr. Speaker Peel instantly declared that that being the state of the facts the hon. Member for Derry had no business to move such a Motion. [''Hear, hear!"] But here the case was much stronger. The hon. Baronet was not only a director of the company, but was largely interested in the question. Over and over again complaint, was made that men got into the House as capitalists, and when they joined to the power that large capital had in that House the right of directorships, and voted on questions such as these, then he said they had reached a stage when the House ought to put down its foot.["Hear, hear!"] The hon. Member for Salford had raised a point as to a shareholder not being disabled from voting. There was a great distinction between the two, for whereas a shareholder merely got his dividends, a director got his fees. It was not only in railway matters that these points arose, but they also came up in water companies. Enormous questions, he understood, would arise soon affecting London water, when they would be soused with a brigade of London water directors. [Laughter.] It was desirable that the Government, when they went into the Lobby with their majority, should be able to have the consciousness that they were not rubbing shoulders with interested persons whose votes must inevitably be open to the suspicion of being influenced by the positions they held. ["Hear, hear!"]
  *SIR W. HOULDS WORTHunderstood that when a question of this sort was raised with regard to the vote of any hon. Member it was usual for such hon. Member to withdraw, and if that was the case he was prepared to follow that course. [''Hear, hear!"]
  *MR. SPEAKER: The course taken by Mr. Speaker Peel on a somewhat similar occasion was to call upon the hon. Member whose vote was in question—as I have now called upon the hon. Baronet —and, after he had made a statement to

  869
  the House which he desired, he was requested to withdraw.
  *SIR W. HOULDSWORTHsaid, he only desired to say that he left this matter entirely in the hands of the House. Undoubtedly the fact was that he was a director of the London and North - Western Railway Company, though not for a very long time, and as a director in charge of the Bill which had been before the House he was bound to do his duty in endeavouring to get it passed. His pecuniary interest in the company was not a very large one, and it dated back to a time long before he became a director. With reference to the remark of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Carnarvon as to his moving the Closure, he wished to assure the House that he did not take that step with any desire to shut out any complaints which might be made, but because he thought the question had been thoroughly exhausted, and in the interests of the business of the House. [Cheers and counter cheers.] If by his action he had interfered with the right of any hon. Gentleman to bring any question in connection with this Bill before the House, he could only express his regret. He would, however, venture to say that he did not think a discussion on the Second Reading of a Bill of this sort was at all a convenient time for bringing forward questions of detail [''Oh!"]—which he would be very glad to consider in an impartial and even conciliatory spirit if the opportunity arose, either at the board of the London and North-Western Company or elsewhere. He now placed himself entirety in the hands of the House.
  The hon. Baronet then withdrew.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALPOUR,)rising immediately afterwards, said, the question which the hon. Member for Carnarvon had started in connection with the vote given by his hon. Friend was not new to the House. From time to time it occurred to hon. Gentlemen to raise the question of whether a director of a company should or should not be allowed to record his vote in connection with a private Bill in which his company was interested, and the House had decided almost uniformly
  870
  that such vote should not be disallowed. He thought the action of the House in that respect had been wise. What the House had got to guard against was corruption. ["Hear, hear!" and "Oh!"] If there was anything more than corruption he did not know what it was—corruption or the suspicion of corruption. ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Personal interest.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid, that personal interest, if it influenced an hon. Member's vote in a public matter, was corruption, and he knew of nothing more clearly corrupt than that a man who was sent to the House to do public duties should allow his vote to be influenced by those private interests. [Cheers.] It was not relevant whether an hon. Member was or was not a director of a company. [Cries of "Oh!"] How could it be relevant? An hon. Member who was a director of a company got fees as a director, and his fees were not increased in prosperous times, nor were they diminished if the company was not prosperous. [Cries of ''Oh!'' and laughter.] Hon. Gentlemen opposite had a larger acquaintance —['' Hear, hear!'' and laughter]—with questions connected with directorships than he had, for he had never had the advantage to serve upon a board— [cheers']—and he might, therefore, have readily fallen into some error as to the method in which directors' fees were arranged. But surely he was not wrong in saying that the emoluments of a director of the London and North-Western Railway Company would not be increased if this Bill passed, and would not be diminished if the Bill were thrown out. [''Hear, hear!"] Under these circumstances it was perfectly clear that if the vote of his hon. Friend were attacked, it ought not to be attacked because he was a director of the company, but because he was a shareholder. ["Hear, hear!"] If that was admitted, were they going to cross-examine all the gentlemen who took part in the late Division as to whether or not they had got shares in the company? Evidently, the House of Commons would be taking upon itself a task which it was incapable of performing if it drove the doctrine of private interest in industrial concerns to the extent of saying that no

  871
  man, however little interested in any industrial concern, was to give any vote in this House by which the fortunes of that concern might be influenced. Was a Member for a Lancashire town, who happened to be a cotton spinner, to give no vote on the question of the Indian import duties? ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. LOUGH: It would be better if he did not.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYasked, was a Member who was either a mortgagee or an owner of land never to give a vote on anything touching land? Was a solicitor never to give a vote on any subject by which the interests of the great body of solicitors might be affected directly or indirectly? Was no lawyer ever to give a vote upon any Bill which, if it passed, might increase litigation—[laughter]—or which might be so modified, as, perhaps, under some circumstances, to diminish the emoluments which might be legitimately expected by that honourable profession by their appearance in Court? They could not drive this doctrine of personal interest to the extent which the hon. Member who moved the Motion, or the hon. and learned Gentleman who seconded it, attempted to do. Let the House remember that this had nothing to do with directorships. It had simply to do with the holding of shares, and, unless the House was prepared to lay down the doctrine that the holding of shares was to preclude any Gentleman from voting on a Bill which directly or indirectly might affect the business in which he had shares, then he thought the vote of his hon. Friend ought to be allowed. It was not necessary for him to weary the House by dealing with precedents, but it did so happen that there was almost an exactly similar question raised with regard to another director of the same company Mr. David Plunket, as he then was, under almost exactly similar circumstances. His vote was challenged as his hon. Friend's vote had been, and the House, having listened to the arguments on both sides, decided by a large majority that Mr. David Plunket's vote should be allowed. Under these circumstances it appeared to him they had both reason and precedent on their side, and he hoped the House would not consent to disallow the vote, and would not, therefore, agree to
  872
  the Motion which had been made from the opposite side of the House. [Cheers. ]
  *MR. R. B. HALDANEsaid, he could not help thinking that the question which came before the House, not for the first time, was one of a larger general interest than that which was involved in the mere question of whether the hon. Baronet ought to have voted. Of the hon. Baronet, he must say at once that, knowing him as he did, and having a high respect for his personal character, he did not for a moment believe that he would have voted if he had in the least conceived that it was wrong to do so. But the question which the House had to decide was the question which was raised upon this action, and he did think it would be well if they could come to some distinct understanding as to what their course was to be upon future occasions. As he understood the rule, it was simply this, that no Member was to vote on any matter in which he bad a direct personal pecuniary interest, and what that meant, and whether in a particular case he had such an interest, was a question which was left to be decided by the House. Obviously, in that state of things, the House had to consider each case, and the House had to determine whether the case was one in which it was desirable that hon. Members should give their vote. This question had come before them more than once, and it had always been left to the House to determine whether, having regard to the circum stances of the case, it was one within the rule. In the present instance they had the bare proposition put before the House by the First Lord of the Treasury that the mere fact of being a director, and that having an admitted interest as a shareholder besides, was not a sufficient reason for disqualification. He wanted to know whether the right hon. Gentleman put that as an abstract proposition. Take the case of a company in which a director, who was a Member of this House, had got a very large pecuniary interest—a very large number of the shares, it might be almost the whole of the shares. Would he, in that case, coming here as a director, be a person whom the House would say had no pecuniary interest in the matter? It was obvious that in all cases it was one of degree, and, if one of degree, it surely

  873
  was not expedient that the rule should be left in a state of ambiguity. It was surely far better that they should lay down some principle, and it seemed to him especially desirable that they should do so, having regard to the feelings that had arisen not only inside but outside the House on the question of the votes of the directors of the water companies upon the recent Bills. It seemed to him it would be convenient that the House should make a precedent upon this occasion, and that the precedent should be to the effect, though it was probable there would be exceptions, that no person who was a director or shareholder might give a vote in a case in which a Bill which he was promoting was before the House. The hon. Baronet had told them—and this seemed to him to make it essential that some rule of the kind should be instituted—that he rose in his place to promote this Bill because it was his duty, not as a Member of the House, but as a director of the London and North-Western Railway Company. The position of a Member of that House was a sacred one. It was a position of trust, and he was not sent there by his constituents to promote Bills for companies or corporations. As there was absolutely no rule to govern these cases, and as the House had treated it essentially as a matter to be determined on the circumstances of each case, he did think that they would be acting wisely, without imputing anything to the hon. Baronet, if they took advantage of that occasion to make a precedent. A rule ought to be laid down that no Member who was a director or shareholder in a company should vote upon a question relating to a Bill which he came into the House for the purpose of promoting, and a precedent to that effect might certainly be established on the present occasion, especially as the House was badly off for guidance in such cases. A vote given under the circumstances of the present case ought not to be recognised, and the House could lay down a precedent without making any reflection on the right hon. Baronet.
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: On a point of order, Mr. Speaker, is it in the power of the House by any vote given on this Motion to lay down any principle with regard to our future guidance; in other words, would
  874
  not any vote we give be strictly confined to the merits of the case before us? Could it possibly have the effect suggested by the hon. and learned Gentleman?
  *MR. HALDANE: On the point of order, Sir, is it not open to us, as a result of the general Debate, to lay down a precedent which will be of value in clearly determining future cases?
  *MR. SPEAKER: That is the more correct definition. It is a precedent that may be laid down, but whether that precedent is converted into a principle must depend on the House.
  MR. LOUGHsaid, that probably every Member of the House would be glad that the right hon. Gentleman had not made a good defence against the Motion. [Cries of "Oh!"] The right hon. Gentleman had said that he was inexperienced in those matters, and not a few Members felt glad, with himself, that the House of Commons should be led by one who had had no such experience. ["Hear, hear!"] The right hon. Gentleman could have made no remark which more displayed that want of experience than when he said that, in this case at least, the hon. Baronet had no direct interest in voting, because the fees of a director of the London and North-Western Company would not be affected by the Bill. It was well known that directors in connection with some of the great railway companies received fees amounting to upwards of £5,000 a year. ["Oh, oh!" and cheers.]
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREA-SURY: The hon. Member has mistaken what I said. I believe that I at first laid down too wide a proposition relating to directors generally, but I restricted that afterwards by saying that the directors of the London and North-Western Company certainly did not have their emoluments increased by any increase in the dividends or decreased by any diminution of the dividends. [Cheers and cries of "Oh!"]
  MR. LOUGHsaid, that if the right hon. Gentleman had had more experience he would have known that the very first thing that suffered—in an honest company, at least—was the directors' fees. If the earnings of the company went down the fees decreased, if the earnings increased the fees went up. He desired to associate himself entirely with the remark of a previous speaker, that he had

  875
  no idea in taking part in this discussion of making any charge against the hon. Baronet the Member for North-West Manchester. He had often felt very keenly on this matter since he had been a Member of the House, and he could not refrain from supporting the Motion. There was, he thought, a loose feeling in the House with regard to limited companies. It seemed to be thought that if one could get behind the shelter of a limited company he was not so directly interested pecuniarily as if the undertaking was a private or personal one. But this was an error. There was a growing feeling that they had too much of this director business in the House of Commons, and the flagrant case of the London water companies, through which millions had been added to the property of those having seats in the House by the decisions of the House, ought to be fresh in the minds of hon. Members on the present occasion. ["Hear, hear!"] There was no need for the adoption of any drastic course, but the House might at least express the opinion that it would be better if directors did not vote on Bills affecting their companies. ["Hear, hear!"] So far as he was concerned he would go a step farther, and apply the same rule to shareholders. There were many admirable instances of Members of that House refraining from voting on questions in which they were pecuniarily interested, and there was one case in which an eminent lawyer had sacrificed £10,000 a year in order to keep his hands clean in that respect. This was not a Party question, and he trusted it would not be made so. He perfectly remembered the precedent which had been referred to by the First Lord of the Treasury, and he thought at the time, and still thought, it would have been better if that vote had been disallowed. The present case was similar in most respects, and he urged that it was an excellent opportunity to lay down a precedent for action in future cases of the kind.
  SIR EDWARD CLARKEsaid, he entirely agreed with the hon. and learned Member for Haddington that some rule should be established on the matter with which they were now dealing. But he ventured to think that such a rule was laid down in the case of Mr. David
  876
  Plunket, to which the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House had already referred. On that occasion Mr. Plunket took part in a Debate and voted in the Division on a London and North Western Railway Bill. The question was raised as to whether his Vote ought not to be disallowed, and the House decided by 254 to 36 against disallowing it. So far, therefore, as any precedent, or rule, could be established by decision of the House, a decision was then given in the most emphatic terms, upon which decision the hon. Member for Manchester had acted, and it was now proposed, practically and publicly, to censure him for doing that which he had done in accordance with a recent and strong decision of the House.
  *MR. HALDANE: I remember that case perfectly well, but in the present case—and this was the distinction I made—the hon. Baronet stated that he had come here to take charge of the Bill, and he specifically said that he did so in order to do his duty as a director of the North Western Company.
  SIR E. CLARKEsaid that that established no distinction. The question was one of interest. His hon. and learned Friend said that the hon. Baronet's vote was given, not as a Member of the House but as a director of the company. But it was impossible to divide in that way the motives that actuated a Member. If the hon. Baronet had not been a director he would probably have given the same vote on public grounds. It was, therefore, impossible to say that he had voted as a director only and not in the public interest as a Member. In a similar way it was impossible to draw a distinction between a shareholder and a director, and yet the interest of a director in an undertaking might be much smaller than that of a shareholder. It was possible, therefore, that there might be Members of the House who had a larger interest in the North Western Company as shareholders than the hon. Baronet had as a director. He submitted that in the case of Mr. Plunket the House had already laid down a rule of action in such cases, that that rule should be followed on the present occasion, and that the Motion should be rejected. ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. JOHN BURNSsaid, he trusted the House would rise above the political

  877
  prejudice that had been imported into the Debate, and any commercial interests that might operate with Gentlemen on either side. The feeling of the people outside towards the House of Commons was considerably diminishing, and it was because a suspicion had grown up that it had in recent years become too frequently the rendezvous of guinea pigs, and of railway, and gas, and water company directors. [Cheers and laughter.] He ventured to say that that was the opinion of the man in the street, and he thought the fact made the passing of such a Motion as that now proposed absolutely necessary. He also thought the Government ought to give some promise that the whole question relating to hon. Members voting on matters in which they had a pecuniary interest should be reconsidered, with the view to laying down some definite rule in the matter for the future guidance of the House. There was not a single vestry, parish, town or county council, or one of the 40,000 local governing institutions in the country which did not consider it a municipally disqualifying act for a man to speak, and above all to vote, in favour of any scheme in which he had a direct personal interest. And before a Member of the House could sit upon a railway, gas, tramway, or water Bill upstairs, he had practically to declare that in the subject-matter that would come before him he had no private interest whatever. He saw no reason why the House should not more religiously apply such a principle, so far as its Parliamentary proceedings were concerned. There were better instances. No magistrate could vote in respect of a licence for a public house in which he was pecuniarily interested, and to the eternal credit of our judiciary no Judge would think of giving a decision in any case in which he had even indirectly a pecuniary or any other interest. The legal encyclopædia (Mr. T. M. Healy) who sat on his right informed him there were many cases in which Judges had been under the common law disabled to give decisions on ordinary rating and assessment appeals, and that frequently it had been the practice of municipal corporations in Ireland and elsewhere to remove that disablement, so that the Judges should have the opportunity of exercising their judicial duties without fear or suspicion.
  878
  He was surprised the hon. and learned Member for Plymouth should put a matter like this on the ground of votes. It was a question whether the director of a railway company should choose between the private interests of the monopoly he served by moving or supporting a Bill, or the duty imposed upon him as the representative of the constituency which sent him to the House by their votes. When the President of the Local Government Board introduced the Bill which practically deprived London of water from Wales for 50 years, who were the Members who sat behind him? They sat as the song says, "Nineteen jolly boys all in a row."
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman must not go into a detailed history of a previous case.
  MR. BURNSsaid, he had said sufficient on that point and would turn to the remarks of the Leader of the House, whom they all honoured, because, in such matters as this, he was above suspicion. He desired, however, in good temper and with great respect, to traverse the distinction the right hon. Gentleman attempted to make. It was frivolous of the First Lord of the Treasury to put the case of a man with a cotton mill discussing in the House such things as import duties. They would not be inclined to press a disqualification upon a joint-owner of a cotton-mill who had a perfect right to discuss abstract fiscal, legislative or economic restrictions upon the development of the trade in which he was interested through his mill; but, if a cotton-mill proprietor in India came here and wanted to palm off on the House of Commons an antiquated cotton mill to the detriment of the Indian ryots, they would be able to bring some pressure upon him. It was frivolous, too, to suggest that a mortgagee in land would have no right to vote on land questions, and that a lawyer would not be able to bring in a Bill, the result of which would be to increase his fees. The scandal of the present state of things was very great. The Liberal Unionists in the House had an average of 4 ¼ companies per man, the Tories an average of 2 ¼ companies per man, the Liberals an average of 1¾ per man, and the 86 Irishmen had to their eternal honour only 4 companies amongst them. There

  879
  was one Labour Member who had a joint interest in a Friendly Society that could not be called a company at all. It was said that he was disqualified from sitting on the Committee to consider the printing contracts because, before he became a Member of the House, some printers somewhere sent him £10 towards his election expenses. He had resigned his seat on the Committee before that allegation was made, but the hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Austin) resigned in consequence of it.
  *MR. SPEAKERsaid the hon. Member was really travelling very far from the vote of the hon. Member for Manchester.
  MR. BURNSsaid he merely wished to add that had he not already resigned, he would have done so rather than any suspicion should rest upon him. The British House of Commons had saved itself from the breath of suspicion and corruption that had brought down many legislative assemblies and ruined many political and Parliamentary institutions, and put in their place autocracies and dictatorships. Because he believed there were too many directors of companies in that House he would support the Resolution. It was bad enough that Empires should be swept on one side through being governed by the lost tribes of Israel, but good-bye might be said to the future of a House when it was governed by the forty thieves. [A laugh.]
  MR. LEONARD COURTNEYsaid the question whether Members who were shareholders in or directors of a limited company should vote was a very important one, but in connection with it there was a still more important question which was well worthy of being raised, and that was whether a person who was a shareholder in or a director of a limited company was capable of sitting in the House if the limited company had a contract with the Government. The London and North Western Company had a contract for carrying mails with the Government. Would the proceedings this afternoon and the conclusion they would arrive at in any way help to settle that question? [Mr. W. FIELD: "Certainly."] The hon. Member imagined they were going to disallow the vote which the hon. Baronet the Member for Manchester had given in accordance with numerous or
  880
  innumerable precedents. [Mr. FIELD: "We must make a beginning some time."] They could not settle the principle by a chance vote. The hon. Member who first called attention to this case relied on a precedent which he thought was on all fours. He recalled to their recollection the case of the Mombasa Railway, in which certain votes were disallowed. There was a great difference between the two cases. In the Mombasa case the Vote of the House was a Vote of public money to be given to the company. This was not at all a case of the same character. Whenever a case like the present had been raised the House had decided, whether rightly or wrongly, not to disturb the vote of the person who was a shareholder or director; conscious of the extreme difficulty of drawing a line, they had left it to the Members concerned to determine whether or not the votes should be given. Practically, the House had refused to interfere in the matter. He thought it unworthy of the hon. and learned Member for Haddingtonshire to pick up the words of the hon. Member for Manchester and twist them into a meaning they did not bear. He regretted that his hon. Friend allowed himself to stoop to the argument he used.
  MR. HALDANEsaid his right hon. Friend misapprehended him. He quoted the expressions because they represented what was the case. The hon. Member for Manchester was in charge of the Bill, and his name was on the back of it. He did not make any imputation on the hon. Baronet; in fact, he expressly said he had the highest regard for his character. ["Hear, hear!"]
  MR. COURTNEYsaid he could understand that, but still his hon. Friend did use the language. Now, with respect to the question raised, one result of the discussion would be to deepen the suspicion that many Members must have that it was desirable to remove this kind of work from the House altogether. [Cheers.] He wanted to point out for the immediate consideration of the House that that particular Debate, if pushed to a conclusion, would certainly end in the confirmation of the right of the hon. Member to give his vote. But at the same time it did open this alarming prospect before them—that every time a railway Bill appeared and a vote was

  881
  taken upon it somebody might get up and move to disallow the vote. [Opposition cheers, and A VOICE—"So much the better!"] He thought it desirable to prevent such an occupation of the time of the House. ["Hear, hear!"] Therefore, he would suggest that the Leader of the House might consent to the appointment of a Committee to consider this matter, so that a principle might be established to guide them. He thought the present Motion might be withdrawn on the understanding that his right hon. Friend the Leader of the House consented to the appointment of a Committee to consider this very important, delicate, and almost momentous question affecting the characters of Members of the House and the conduct of its business. ["Hear, hear!"]
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURYsaid he should be very glad to appoint a Committee on the general question. [Cheers.] Whether that committee or any committee could find a solution he did not pretend to forecast, but it would be well to have a matter which had more than once exercised the feelings of the House thoroughly threshed out. On the part of the Government, therefore, he was prepared to assent to the appointment of a Committee. [Cheers.]
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid under these circumstances he should withdraw his Motion.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 1) BILL.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed—
  "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
  MR. T. M. HEALY MR. T. M. HEALY rose to speak, when,
  THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. T. W. RUSSELL,)obtained leave to withdraw the Motion.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 2) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
NOTICES OF MOTION.
  OFFICERS OF THE GENERAL LIST.
  Captain HERBERT JESSEL, To call attention to the case of the Officers of the General List: and to move a Resolution.—Tuesday, 12th May.]
  EDUCATION FEE GRANT.
  Mr. CALDWELL, To call attention to the allocation of the Education Fee Grant; and to move a Resolution.—[Tuesday, 12th May.]
  COURTS OF SUMMARY JURISDICTION.
  Mr. HENRY J. WILSON, To call attention to the procedure in Courts of Summary Jurisdiction; and to move a Resolution.— [Tuesday, 12th May.]
  EDUCATION FEE GRANT.
  Mr. J. P. FARRELL, To call attention to the School Fee Grant difference between England, Scotland, and Ireland; and to move a Resolution. [Tuesday, 12th May.]
  Major RASCH, This day four weeks to call attention to the duration of speeches in this House.[Laughter.]
  FOREIGN GOODS (PREVENTION OF FRAUD) BILL.
  Adjourned Debate on Second Reading [25th March] deferred till To-morrow.

  RULE OF THE ROAD AT SEA.
  Report from the Select Committee brought up, and read; Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.—[No. 140.]
  Minutes of Proceedings to be printed. [No. 140.]

  NEW WRIT.
  For the County of Kerry (North Kerry Division), v. Thomas Sexton, esquire (Chiltern Hundreds).—(Captain Donelan.)
QUESTIONS.

  SOUTH KENSINGTON MUSEUM (MUSICAL INSTRUMENT COLLECTION).
  MR. J. W. SIDEBOTHAM: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education, whether his attention has been called to the fact that a most interesting collection of old and curious musical instruments is offered for sale at Ghent; and, whether, seeing that the present collection at South Kensington is very incomplete, he will consider the advisability of utilising a portion of the amount provided in the Estimates for the purchase of works of art in securing a portion of the Ghent collection?
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Sir JOHN GORST,): The Committee of Council have already received information as to this sale; but they do not consider it advisable to make purchases there, in view of the already crowded state of the Museum and the wants of other branches.

  POSTE RESTANTE.
  MR. H. H. BEMROSE: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if his attention has been called to the fact that betting agents are in the habit of advertising in the newspapers for clients to address their letters, remittances and telegrams to them at the post offices of various towns during the week of their race meetings; and, whether the Postmaster General will consider if steps can be taken to prevent a continuance of it?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. R. W. HANBURY,): Letters addressed "Poste Restante" to initials or to names obviously fictitious are at once sent to the Returned Letter Office. But letters duly addressed are delivered to the owners on application, and the Department could not distinguish between betting agents and other persons who may temporarily visit a town and require the accommodation of the Poste Restante. Nor could its officers be left with the discretion of distinguishing between betting and other telegrams.

  LIGHT RAILWAYS (EGYPT).
  MR. T. LOUGH: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether the Government have approved certain plans for the construction of Light Railways in Egypt, the principle on which these railways are to be constructed being that the Egyptian Government guarantee a certain interest on the capital, which will not have to be paid as the lines may become remunerative; and, if so, whether it will be possible for the Standing Committee on Trade, to which the English Light Railways Bill has been referred, to make such alterations in the financial proposals of that Bill as would bring it into conformity with the Egyptian plan?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (MR. C. T. RITCHIE,): The hon. Member probably refers, in the first portion of his Question, to the Light Railway mentioned in Lord Cromer's last Report (see Egypt No. 1, 1896, p. 12). The matter is one which concerns the Egyptian Government alone, and Her Majesty's Government were not consulted as to the plans for the railway or the terms of the concession. I anticipate that the Light Railways Bill will be in Committee the day after to-morrow, and the Government will then be prepared to give their views on the question of guarantee.

  GREENWICH PARK (DEER-KEEPER).
  *LORD HUGH CECIL: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, whether his attention has been called to the case of Mr. J. Jordan, lately deer-keeper in Greenwich Park; and, whether the Treasury are prepared to concede Mr. Jordan abolition terms on his retirement?
  MR. HANBURY: Power to grant abolition terms is strictly limited by the Superannuation Act to cases in which retirement results in both efficiency and economy. The Treasury will grant to Mr. Jordan the full abolition addition (if any) consistent with the above statutory limitation. I am not, however, satisfied that any saving is shown by the reorganisation, though, no doubt, there will be greater efficiency.

  EGYPTIAN EXPEDITION
  MR. T. R. BUCHANAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, whether the Government intend to bring troops from India to Suakim or elsewhere to join in the Egyptian Expedition; and, whether he will secure that no part of the expenses is laid upon the Indian Exchequer?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,): I have no reason to believe that the Egyptian army will prove inadequate to the task it has in hand; and, until such assistance as is suggested in the question is required, it is obviously premature to discuss the incidence of its cost.

  SECONDARY EDUCATION (SCOTLAND).
  MR. J. W. CROMBIE: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether the Government intend to introduce a Bill dealing with secondary education in Scotland at an early date; and, if not, whether they will appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the subject, as was done in the case of England?
  *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Sir CHARLES PEARSON,): The Government do not intend at present to introduce a Bill dealing with secondary education in Scotland, nor do they think that any good purpose would be served by the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the subject.

  CHURCH CATECHISM IN BOARD SCHOOLS.
  *MR. J. CARVELL WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he is aware that in September and November 1888 the Education Department compelled a number of school boards in whose schools the doctrinal portions of the Church Catechism were taught to abandon the practice; and whether, although the Department last year adopted the same course in regard to certain schools named in Appendix III. to the Return of 1895, and in doing so stated that the question was, not whether
  886
  instruction in the Catechism was complained of or not, but whether the requirements of the Cowper-Temple Clause had been complied with, it is now to be understood that the Department will not take similar action in regard to other school boards using the Catechism unless complaint be made by some aggrieved person?
  SIR JOHN GORST: In 1888, letters were written to school boards which taught the Church Catechism advising them which parts were not distinctive of a religious denomination. In 1895, a correspondence took place with certain school boards teaching the Church Catechism which is to be found in the Return to which the Question refers. The Committee of Council do not consider that it is necessary to take any further action at present, but they would he state to express their intentions in the formulary suggested to them by the Question.
  *MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS: I do not understand the right hon. Gentleman to deny that the Committee of Council have taken action in these cases?
  SIR J. GORST: Oh, yes, they have taken proper action, but the hon. Gentleman asks whether they have compelled a number of school boards to abandon the practice. No, Sir, they did not compel the school boards to abandon the practice, but they told them what the law- was and the school boards observed it.
  *MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS: May I ask whether a different course is to be pursued in the future?
  SIR J. GORST: I cannot answer hypothetical questions. If it is necessary to correspond with school boards, of course they will be corresponded with, but I cannot undertake to say what will be done in any individual case. The incident is now closed and the school boards have been corresponded with and their attention has been called to the law.
  *MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS: Has the right hon. Gentleman corresponded with all the school boards mentioned in the Return?
  SIR JOHN GORST: The difference between the hon. Member and myself is this. He assumes that the law has been broken. I assume that the law has been observed, and I will not accuse

  887
  the managers of schools of breaking the law unless there is some primâ facie evidence to show that they have broken it.
  *MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS: Does not the Return itself show that the school boards have violated the law?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That will appear from the Return. Notice should be given of any further Questions.
  MR. F. A. CHANNING: May I ask whether, in this correspondence any intimation was given to the school boards that the grants might be withdrawn, in the case of the practice not being abandoned?
  SIR J. GORST: I cannot speak without the correspondence.

  CHANNEL MAIL SERVICE.
  SIR HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury if it is a fact that the Day Mail Service between Dover and Calais, which flies the French flag and is manned by French seamen, is entirely paid for by France; while the Night Mail Service, which flies the Union Jack, is paid for by Her Majesty's Government; and, if British sailors are mainly employed on the latter.
  MR. HANBURY: It is a fact that the Day Mail Service between Dover and Calais is entirely paid for by France, and is performed by vessels flying the French flag and manned by French crews, and that the Night Mail Service is paid for by Her Majesty's Government, and is performed by vessels flying the British flag and manned by British crews.

  CORONERS' INQUESTS (ATTENDANCE OF ACCUSED PERSONS.)
  MR. EDWARD M'HUGH: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland—(1) if he is aware that Mr. E. S. Finnigan, Coronor for Belfast, recently complained about the practice in Ireland under which prisoners charged with offences connected with the deaths of persons upon whom inquests were to be held are not allowed to be present at such inquests, except by the issue of writ of
  888
  Habeas Corpus; and (2) whether, seeing that it is a rule of the Home Office that prisoners in England, detained in similar circumstances, must receive notification of the dates of the holding of inquests by which their liberties are affected, and may attend thereat and give evidence should they desire to do so, he will state whether there is any reason why the law in both countries should not be alike; and, if not, will he endeavour to have extended to Ireland the practice in these cases which is followed in England?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. GERALD BALFOUR,): I am aware of the fact referred to in the first paragraph. A prisoner cannot be produced in Ireland at a Coroner's inquisition without a writ of Habeas Corpus, obtained by him or by the Crown. In England the law is different, as, under the 16 Vic, Cap. 30, sec. 9, which does not extend to Ireland, a prisoner may be brought up on the Warrant of the Secretary of State. I have never heard of a complaint being made by, or on behalf of, a prisoner, that an opportunity was not afforded to him of giving evidence at a Coroner's inquest in Ireland as to an offence for which he was in custody, and in the absence of evidence that the existing practice is detrimental to the interests of prisoners, I see no reason for an alteration of the law as suggested.

  PARISH CHARITY DOLE.
  SIR CAMERON GULL: I beg to ask the hon. Member for Thirsk, as representing the Charity Commission, whether the trustees of a parish charity, who are appointed by the council of the parish, can grant a dole there from to one of the parish councillors?
  MR. J. GRANT LAWSON: The trustees can grant such a dole if the parish councillor to whom it is granted is not himself a trustee of the charity.

  BOARDS OF GUARDIANS (CO-OPTED MEMBERS).
  CAPTAIN BETHELL: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, when

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  those boards of guardians of which one-third of the members retire annually, should next elect their co-opted members?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. HENRY CHAPLIN,): The Question is not one which the Local Government Board are empowered to decide; but they have stated that, in their opinion, the term of office of an additional guardian, elected under Subsection 7 of Section 20 of the Local Government Act, 1894, is three years.

  MILITARY PAUPERS.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, whether he has any objection to give a Return of the number of soldiers who served in the British Army, and who are now in the workhouses of Great Britain and Ireland, or in receipt of outdoor relief from the rates?
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,): The information necessary for such a Return is at present in course of collection from the several Poor Law Authorities; when completed, there will be no objection to its presentation to Parliament.

  ARMY PENSIONS.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, (1) whether he will lay upon the Table a copy of Her Most Gracious Majesty's Warrant, issued in 1868, commanding that a number of old soldiers, 400 in number, who had served in the Peninsula and Waterloo, and who were then (1868) paupers, should get pensions of 1s. 6d. per day; and, (2) whether the Government will direct Her Majesty's attention to the fact that there are a large number of soldiers who gave Her Majesty faithful service now in the workhouses of Great Britain and Ireland, with the view of commending them to Her Majesty's consideration?
  *MR. BRODRICK: The warrant referred to, of which I lay a copy on the Table, was issued in 1874, 59 years
  890
  after the last campaign included in its action. As I stated yesterday, the number of men engaged in campaigns before 1860 now alive is very large and vastly in excess of the Peninsula veterans included in the warrant of 1874, and to renew it would involve enormous expenditure.
  *CAPTAIN DONELAN: I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether the. spectacle of old Irish soldiers ending their days in the Irish workhouses is not likely to have a deterrent effect on recruiting in Ireland?
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! That is a matter of opinion.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: The hon. Gentleman has not answered the last paragraph of the Question.
  *MR. BRODRICK: The reply to that paragraph is involved in the statement that the number is too large to undertake the course suggested.
  MR. PATRICK O'BRIEN: Is not that a question for Her Majesty herself? I have no doubt that Her Majesty in her generosity would accede to it.
  *MR. BRODRICK: In these matters Her Majesty acts on the opinion of her confidential advisers.

  CROWN LANDS (COLONIES).
  MR. HERBERT ROBERTS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, if he has received a memorial from certain Indians resident in Durban and Zululand, to the effect that regulations have been made in selling Crown lands in the townships of Kondweni and Eshowe, in Zululand, to the effect that only persons of European birth and descent shall be allowed to purchase them, and that a condition of purchase shall be that they shall never be transferred to any other persons but such Europeans on pain of forfeiture to the Crown; and, if so, will he at once order such alteration and amendment in these regulations as shall enable lands in a Crown Colony to be purchased by any of Her Majesty's subjects, regardless of race or colour distinctions?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,): I would ask the hon. Member to refer to the answer which I gave in this House as recently as the

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  10th instant to a Question substantially similar to his which was asked by the hon. Member for Bethnal Green. To that answer I have at present nothing to add.

  LAND LAW (IRELAND) BILL
  MR. J. P. FARRELL: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he has received a copy of a resolution adopted at a largely attended meeting in Clones on 24th January 1895, at which a resolution was passed approving of the views expressed by the hon. Member for South Tyrone before the Morley Committee on the propriety and justice of admitting mill owners who have farms attached to their mills to the position of agricultural tenants; and, will the Government give effect to this in the passing of the Irish Land Bill?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The resolution referred to does not appear to have been brought under my notice. The Land Bill will be in the hands of the hon. Member in a day or two.

  MATABELELAND.
  MR. HENRY LABOUCHERE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Colonies, (1) whether any steps have been taken to ascertain if the uprising, of the Natives in Matabeleland has been due to anything in the relations that have been established between them and the Chartered Company of South Africa that may have acted injuriously to the Natives, or may be deemed by them to have so acted, with a view to put an end to the present unfortunate state of things in that country, by the offer of the removal of all legitimate grievances; and, (2) whether the 200 Soudanese that are stated to have arrived in Matabeleland were brought there by the Chartered Company; and, if so, with what object?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: Up to the present time I have no reason to believe that the rising in Matabeleland is due to any mismanagement by the Chartered Company. Of course, our present object and desire is to put down the rising as quickly as possible. ["Hear, hear!"] As soon as that is done I shall instruct Sir Richard Martin to make a
  892
  full Report on the causes of the rising. I have at present no information in regard to the second part of the Question; but I have directed an inquiry to be made by the High Commissioner on the subject. In the meantime I would say that the British Vice-Consul at Beira, of whom we have made inquiries, stated that Mr. Rhodes was only accompanied by his secretary and his servant.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: Does the right hon. Gentleman know whether these are Dervishes? [Laughter.]
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: I do not know whether they exist at all.
  *SIR C. DILKE: Is it not probable that these 200 black Soudanese said to have landed at Beira for the South Africa Company, are the 200 black Soudanese who landed at Mombasa about whom questions have been previously asked in the last few weeks?
  MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN: It is perfectly impossible for me to say who they are. I see in the newspapers that Mr. Rhodes is accompanied by 200 Soudanese. I inquire of the British Vice-Consul at Beira, and he has no information of them.

  MILITARY OPERATIONS IN THE SOUDAN.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs—(1) whether any Indian troops of Her Majesty are under orders to go the Soudan; and (2) whether, if troops of Her Majesty are employed either to defend that portion of the Soudan now occupied by Egyptian troops, or to replace any other portion of it now governed by the Kailifa under the rule of Egypt, the cost will be defrayed by Egypt or by this country?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Mr. GEORGE CURZON,): The first part of the Question has already been answered in the negative by the Secretary of State for India. In reply to the second, should it be found necessary to employ British troops beyond Wady Haifa, the cost of such operations will be a matter for consideration and discussion between the British and Indian Governments.
  MR. LABOUCHERE: DO I understand that no action will be taken until the House has an. opportunity of pronouncing on the matter?
  MR. CURZON: NO such inference can be drawn from the reply in the form in which I have given it. [Laughter.]
  MR. J. H. DALZIEL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs—(1), whether the 9th Lancers are under orders to proceed to the Soudan; and (2) whether the Government adhere to the declaration that no British troops will be employed in the expedition to Dongola?
  MR. CURZON: There is no foundation for the report that the 9th Lancers are, under orders to proceed to the Soudan. In reply to the second part of the Question, I have nothing to add to or to subtract from the reply which I gave to the hon. Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme on the 27th of March.

  SMALL-POX EPIDEMIC (GLOUCESTER).
  MR. R. ASCROFT: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, if any means are being taken by the Postal authorities at Gloucester to disinfect the letters and papers deposited in the pillar-boxes which are situated in the infected areas; and whether he will cause inquiries to be made as to the same, and give such instructions as he may be advised are necessary to prevent the spreading of the small-pox epidemic to other parts of the Kingdom?
  MR. HANBURY: Instructions have been given for the use of disinfectants at the Gloucester Post Office, with the view of reducing, as far as practicable, the risks of infection during the prevailing epidemic.

  BLUE-BOOKS.
  MR. W. J. GALLOWAY: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether he has made inquiries with regard to the delivery of Blue-books to the Provincial Press; and, if so, whether he is in a position to state what arrangements are to be made in order that Blue-books may be delivered to the Provincial Press at the same time as to the London Press?
  *MR.HANBURY: I have made full inquiry into this Question, and I find that Messrs. Eyre and Spottiswoode, who are the Government salesmen, supply Blue-books on subscription to nearly all the principal newspapers published both in London and the Provinces. I shall be glad to show my hon. Friend a list of them. In distributing the Blue-books no preference whatever is shown to London papers. The relative distance from the one distributing centre of course causes the delivery at some offices to be slightly later than at others—but this tells decidedly in favour of the Provincial Press whose offices are mostly in Fleet Street. The last call of one of the distributors, for instance, is at The Morning Post and of another at The Times. To secure early delivery to The Manchester Guardian, whose office is far away, it is made the first call of a messenger who serves the Clubs. Messrs. Eyre and Spottiswoode state that the complaint probably arises from the action of some Government Departments which distribute copies of Blue-books to a certain section of the Press before stock has been sent to them as publishers for distribution or sale.

  CONVICTION FOR BIGAMY.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland—(1) whether Sergeant Dunton, of the Army Service Corps, convicted at the recent Cork Assizes of bigamy and sentenced to three years' penal servitude by Mr. Justice O'Brien, was released from prison before the Assizes were concluded and sent back to join his corps; (2) whether, seeing that Mr. Justice O'Brien in sentencing him said that he could not give him a less sentence than three years, having regard to the gravity of his offence, will he explain why Dunton has been released and on whose recommendation, and whether Mr. Justice O'Brien has been consulted in the matter; (3) is he aware that the young girl whom the convict deceived into going through a marriage ceremony is now in peculiarly distressing circumstances; and (4) were any conditions imposed compelling the released convict to contribute to her support?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The facts appear to be as stated in the first paragraph, and I understand that Mr. Justice O'Brien was consulted in the matter prior to the discharge of the prisoner. Further inquiries, however, are necessary to enable me to reply to the other points raised in the question, and I would ask the hon. and learned Gentleman to repeat it on Thursday next.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Has this worthy not gone back to join the Army?
  [No reply was given.]
  MR. T. M. HEALY: I beg to give notice that on the Estimates I will call attention to this extraordinary case.

  MINES AND MINERALS (STATISTICS).
  MR. WILLIAM ABRAHAM: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, when the Summaries of Statistics of Mines and Minerals for the year 1895 will be issued; and, whether besides issuing the Inspectors' Reports separately for each district, he will cause the whole of the Reports to be issued under one cover, as was the practice formerly?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY,): I am unable to say at present when the Summaries for 1895 will be issued. This is the first year in which Returns from Quarries under the Quarries' Act, 1894, have been included, and as there are more than 10,000 quarries that come within the provisions of the Act, the work of preparation has been exceedingly heavy. I do not propose to issue the Inspectors' Reports under one cover; the present practice was decided upon several years ago as being more convenient, economical, and in accordance with the practice of other Departments, and there is no difficulty, if any one wishes it, in obtaining all the separate Reports. I may also call the hon. Member's attention to the "Annual General Report of the Mining Industry" in one volume, which appeared a few months back, for the first time and which is based on the several Reports of the Inspectors and the mineral statistics.

  VETERINARY COLLEGE (DUBLIN).
  MR. W. FIELD: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland —(1) whether he will introduce this Session the Bill to grant at least £15,000 to found the Veterinary College in Dublin for Ireland; and (2) whether any annual endowment will be provided?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: I hope to be able to deal with the matter referred to in the first part of this Question in the course of the present Session. The suggestion in the second paragraph stands on a different footing, and I can give no undertaking in regard to it.
  *MR. W. JOHNSTON: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can give us the assurance that this £15,000 will not be taken from intermediate education in Ireland?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: No, Sir, I cannot give that assurance.

  ACCIDENTS TO RAILWAY SERVANTS.
  MR. CHANNING: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether the Board of Trade sent down any representative of the Board, without application from the coroners, to any of the 276 inquests held on railway servants in 1895; and, if so, to how many of such inquests?
  MR. RITCHIE: The reply to the hon. Member is in the negative.

  SIR REDVERS BULLER.
  MR. J. H. DALZIEL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for War, whether his attention has been called to a political speech of Sir Redvers Buller, Adjutant-General of Her Majesty's Forces, at the Crediton Constitutional Club, and reported in The Times of 13th April; whether it is usual for Officers of the Army to criticise the action of the Government; whether paragraphs 8 and 11 of Section VI. of the Queen's Regulations apply to the Adjutant-General; and, whether the Secretary of State has taken, or will take, official notice of the matter?
  *MR. BRODRICK: The paragraphs referred to would, no doubt, apply to the Adjutant-General in common with all other officers of the Army; but the

  897
  speech delivered by Sir Redvers Buller as reported in The Times of April 13, does not contravene either of these paragraphs; it was not delivered at a discussion among military men, nor was the Adjutant-General taking part in a political or party demonstration in the neighbourhood of a camp or barracks. The Secretary of State holds that officers on the Headquarters Staff should be specially careful not to become involved in political questions, and will take care that the customary limits are strictly observed by all concerned.
  MR. DALZIEL: I wish to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he disputes the fact that this speech was of a strictly party character?
  *MR. BRODRICK: I have only read the report of the speech that appeared in The Times, and it seems to me to be rather of a military than of a party character, and does not contravene the paragraphs of the regulations.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Will the hon. Gentleman inform Sir Redvers Buller that at the time the Transvaal was given up Mr. Chamberlain and Lord Hartington were in Her Majesty's Government? [Cries of "Order!"]
  MR. DALZIEL: I will call attention to this matter on the Estimates.

  AGRICULTURAL PRODUCE (IRELAND).
  MR. M. MCCARTAN: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland if he will state when the Report of the Prices on Agricultural Produce in Ireland will be printed and circulated?
  MR. GERALD BALFOUR: The Return referred to was laid on the Table of the House last Thursday. It rests with the hon. Gentleman to move that it be printed, and when this has been done, I shall do what I can to expedite its circulation.

  TELEPHONE TRUNK LINES.
  MR. CHARLES SHAW: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, as representing the Postmaster General, whether he is aware that the Post Office, having taken over the telephone trunk lines, have deprived Members of the House of the privileges hitherto granted them in connection
  898
  therewith; and, whether he will undertake that such privileges shall be restored?
  MR. HANBURY: No, Sir, it is not in the power of the Post Office to allow Members of this House to use the telephone trunk wires free of charge, and if it were, I see no reason why Members should have the privilege of using the telephone free of charge any more than they use, free of charge, the Post Office or the telegraph service.

  TRAINING SHIP (BELFAST LOUGH).
  MR. McCARTAN: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, considering the large number of sailors who come from the coasts of counties of Antrim and Down, he will consider the desirability of placing a training ship in Belfast Lough; and whether it is intended to remove the Grampian, which has been used as an industrial: school ship there?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY(Mr. G.J. GOSCHEN.,)(who replied to the (Question) said: In the first place, there is no intention, as I have once or twice informed the House, to multiply the number of training ships in any quarter. As to the question of the removal of the Grampian, that is a matter for the Irish local authorities, and upon it I am not informed.

  KING'S COLLEGE.
  MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS: I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether the Parliamentary Grant to King's College will not only be restored, but considerably increased; and, if so, whether provision is made for such increase in the present Estimates, or will it be otherwise provided?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: No increase is proposed this Session in regard to King's College. My right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer authorises me to say that, in accordance with an undertaking given by him to a deputation which waited upon him, he has appointed three gentlemen—Mr. T. H. Warren, President of Magdalen College, Oxford, Mr. D. G. Liveing, Fellow of St. John's College, Cambridge, and Mr. Chalmers, of

  899
  the Treasury—to visit the colleges sharing in the grant made to universities and colleges in Great Britain, and to investigate the character and quality of university work done, and to inquire generally into the position which each college occupies, both financially and in other respects. When their Report is received, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer expects will be some time in the autumn, he will be in a position to judge whether a case has been made out for recommending Parliament to increase the sum to each of the colleges sharing in the grant.

  NAVAL ESTIMATES.
  MR. WILLAM ALLAN. I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury whether, for the convenience of Members interested in Naval matters, he will undertake to give a reasonable notice before the Naval Estimates art; further considered?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. G. J. GOSCHEN,): I can assure the hon. Gentleman that fair notice will be given when the Navy Estimates will be taken. They will certainly not be taken before Friday week.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  MR. H. J. WILSON: Can the right hon. Gentleman, the Leader of the House, say when it is intended to proceed with the Second Reading of the Education Bill?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: No, Sir; at all events, it cannot be taken before Thursday week. If the hon. Gentleman will put down a Question for Thursday next, I will try to give him a more definite answer.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: IS the right hon. Gentleman able to say what Bills he has in his mind to proceed with before he takes the Second Reading of the Irish Land Bill? Will he take the Evidence in Criminal Cases Bill and that class of Bill?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: No, Sir.
  MR. T. M. HEALY: Will the right hon. Gentleman tell us whether he has any Bilk in his mind which will take precedence of the Land Bill?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: I do not think this is a very convenient time to make a general statement on the subject of the business, but, as the House knows, there are some Bills before the Land Bill which certainly ought to be and must be taken before it.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: It would be a convenience to Members interested in the Army Estimates if the right hon. Gentleman would say when they are likely to come on, and whether they will be taken in their proper order?
  THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: The Army Estimates will certainly not be taken next Friday. I will inform the House when they will be proceeded with.

  PERSONAL PROPERTY (EXEMPTION).
  Bill to exempt Personal Property (to a limited value) from seizure and sale under legal process, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Edmund Robertson, Mr. Causton, Sir Walter Foster, and Sir Henry Howorth; presented accordingly, and read 1°; to be read 2° upon Wednesday 29th April, and to be printed.— [Bill 178.]
ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  MILITARY MANŒUVRES BILL.
  Considered in Committee:—
  (In the Committee.)
  [Mr. J. W. LOWTHER in the Chair.]
  Clause 1:—

  APPLICATION OF ACT BY ORDER IN COUNCIL.
  "1.—(1.) This Act shall, so far as relates to the passing over and occupation of land, be in force within such limits, and during such period, as Her Majesty in Council may by Order prescribe, and the limits and period so prescribed are in this Act referred to as the prescribed limits and the prescribed period.
  (2.) Not less than three months before the commencement of the period proposed to be prescribed, a draft of the proposed Order shall

  901
  be sent to the county council of every administrative county wholly or partly within the limits proposed to be prescribed, and public notice of the proposal to make the Order shall be given in such manner as Her Majesty in Council may direct."
  (3.) If within thirty days after the publication of the notice aforesaid any petition is presented to the county council of any of the counties affected by the proposed Order against the proposal to make the Order, the draft Order shall be laid before each House of Parliament for not less than thirty days on which that House is sitting, and if either House, before the expiration of thirty days during which the draft has been laid before it, presents an address to Her Majesty against the draft, no further proceedings shall be taken thereon, but without prejudice to the making of any new draft Order.
  (4) If no such petition is presented, or having been presented is withdrawn, before the expiration of the thirty days first aforesaid, or if on the draft of the Order being laid before Parliament no address adverse thereto is presented, Her Majesty in Council may make the Order."
  MR. A. C. HUMPHREYS-OWEN MR. A. C. HUMPHREYS-OWEN (Montgomery) moved an Amendment providing that a draft of a proposed Order in Council should be sent to the County Councils affected six months before the commencement of the period proposed to be prescribed by the Order, instead of three months before as proposed by the clause. He thought that longer notice was desirable.
  *MR. BRODRICKhoped the hon. Member would not press the Amendment. The time given would be very considerable. If the change proposed were made, it would be impossible for manœuvres to be held at all this year, and a considerable part of the money for that purpose had already been voted. He had gone into the question with many local authorities, and they were all perfectly satisfied with the arrangement.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. H. C. F. LUTTRELL MR. H. C. F. LUTTRELL (Devon, Tavistock) moved an Amendment, providing that the draft Order should be sent to district and parish councils as well as county councils.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid he was quite ready to accept that Amendment.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGE MR. LLOYD-GEORGE moved an Amendment providing that the draft should be sent also to the corporations and every municipal borough affected.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid he had no objection to that if the hon. Gentleman thought it was necessary.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. LUTTRELL MR. LUTTRELL moved an Amendment, providing that the proposal to make an Order under the Bill "shall be advertised for three consecutive weeks in at least two newspapers circulating in each county wholly or partly within the prescribed limits." He said his object was that full publicity should be given to the Order, and he thought it was a reasonable request to make that the papers circulating in the district should have an opportunity of making the Order known to the people in the county.
  *MR. BRODRICK: I have no "objection to that.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. LUTTRELL MR. LUTTRELL moved to leave out the following words, at the beginning of sub-Section 3:—
  "If within thirty days after the publication of the notice aforesaid any petition is presented to the County Council of any of the counties affected by the proposed Order against the proposal to make the Order."
  He said, he had put the Amendment down because he could not see that any object was gained by laying the Order before the County Council before it was laid on the Table of the House. He thought it would be far better that objections to the Order should be made in the House, and he did not see why objections should only be allowed to be made if an appeal was made by way of petition to the County Council. There should be full opportunity given to the representatives of the people in the House of Commons to make their views known.
  *MR. BRODRICKpointed out that any objection presented to the County Council must come before the Houses of Commons and Lords, and must be on the Table of both Houses for 30 days. There would be full opportunity given to Members of either House

  903
  to move the rescission of the Order. The proposal that petitions should be presented to the County Council was intended to act as a safeguard to the locality.
  MR. EDMUND ROBERTSON: I gather that provision is made for the automatic transfer of an objection laid before the County Council, from the Council to Parliament.
  *MR. BRODRICK: There is an Amendment on the Paper to that effect.
  MR. LUTTRELLsaid, that under the Bill it was only possible to have a draft Order laid upon the Table of the House if there was an appeal through the County Council. He desired that the Order should be laid whether there was an appeal from the locality or not.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid, the object was that any petition made by anybody should be presented to the House through the County Council, who were the best authority for giving the House information as to local opinion.
  MR. LUTTRELLthought the hon. Gentleman did not understand his point. The Bill provided that the draft Order should only come to the House through a County Council. He contended that it ought to come before the House independently of any Council so that the representatives of the people might be able to speak for their districts.
  MR. E. ROBERTSONdid not think that the Amendment to which the hon. Gentleman had called his attention quite met his point.
  *MR. BRODRICKpointed out that the clause provided that if within 30 days after the publication of the notice any petition is presented to the Council against the proposal to make the Order, the draft Order should be laid before each House of Parliament. In the Amendment to which he had referred the hon. Gentleman he proposed merely to modify that by providing that the petition should not have been withdrawn before the expiration of the 30 days. If the petition was not withdrawn the County Council would be bound to lay it before Parliament with any observations they might have to make upon it.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid, he did not see why an exception should be made in this case. The rule was that
  904
  any provisional Order should be open to challenge by any Member of the House, and he thought that rule ought to be followed in this case.
  MR. EDWARD MORTONasked who was to present the petition.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid that, supposing there was a petition presented on general grounds against the Order, would it be competent for any hon. Member to raise a Debate?
  MR. J. SAMUELasked with reference to the procedure in the case of non-county boards.
  DR. TANNERasked whether it would be permissible for an hon. Member to call attention to the Order?
  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER,)said that ample public notice had been provided in every case. The question was, "Ought there to be an obligation to lay every Order on the Table, or only when a petition was presented to the County Council?" He submitted that it was far more reasonable that the Order should only be laid on the Table when the local authorities had their attention called by a petition as to the Order. It must then come forward with the petition, showing what was the objection to it, and any remarks of the County Council or any other authority chose to make upon it. It was very much better that there should be public notice, in order that the people should take the initial step by ventilating the matter locally.
  MR. LUTTRELLthought it would be far better to have the draft Order laid on the Table of the House, be there petitions or not against it from the locality.
  MR. J. W. LOGANasked why the Government objected to lay the Order on the Table of the House.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid the object was to obtain the ventilating of the question locally by the proper authorities.
  MR. GEORGE LAMBERTpointed out that some County Councils only met four times a year, and there would be some practical inconvenience in the suggestion of the Government.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid he had no abjection to take out the words referred to.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. LUTTRELL MR. LUTTRELL moved an Amendment for the purpose of providing that no Order under Clause1 should be made until a Resolution of each House of Parliament had been passed approving of the draft Order. He argued that if land was to be prescribed, that ought only to he done by Parliamentary Resolution, and that there would be no difficulty in getting such a Resolution passed when the demand made was a reasonable one.
  *MR. BRODRICKsaid that he could not accept the Amendment, and that the rules of the House provided no machinery for effecting the object which the hon. Member desired.
  MR. LUTTRELLcontended that the Standing Orders relating to resolutions to confirm contracts, supplied a precedent for the method of procedure which he desired to have adopted.
  COLONEL. BLUNDELLrose to continue the discussion, but it being ten minutes before Seven of the clock,
  The Chairman left the Chair to make his report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday.

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Considered in Committee:—
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1897, the sum of £27,442,207 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.—(Mr. Hanbury.)
  Resolution to be reported upon Thursday; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

  TELEGRAPHS (ADVANCES)
  Considered in Committee:—
  (In the Committee).
  MR. J. W. LOWTHEE in the Chair.]
  Motion made, and Question again proposed,
  "That it is expedient to authorise the issue, out of the Consolidated Fund, of a sum not exceeding £300,000, for the purposes of the Telegraph Acts, and to authorise the Treasury to borrow such sum by means of terminable annuities, payable out of moneys to be provided by Parliament for the service of the Post Office, and, if those moneys are insufficient, out of the Consolidated Fund.—(Mr. Hanbury.)
  DR. TANNERasked for some explanation of the Resolution?
  MR. HANBURYsaid that the hon. Member would recollect that there was a loan some time ago of about a million for the purchase of trunk telephones, nearly the whole of that money had now been expended in purchasing the wires, and the rest of it in buying new wires. It was now thought desirable to extend the trunk system still further, and the money he was asking for was for the purpose of extending the telephone system and purchasing new wires, etc.
  DR. TANNERthought that a fuller opportunity of considering the matter ought to be afforded to hon. Members.
  *THE CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. Member take exception to this? If so, it is opposed business.
  MR. HANBURYsaid that there would be other opportunities of discussing the matter.
  DR. TANNERobjected to further proceeding, and the Chairman left the Chair to make his Report to the House.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Thursday.

  PUBLIC OFFICES (SITE) BILL.
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS,),THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. AKERS DOUGLAS, Kent, St. Augustine's), moved the Second Reading of this Bill.
  MR. LLOYD-GEORGEobjected.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.

  NAVAL RESERVE BILL.
  Committee deferred till Thursday.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (ALDERSHOT AND FARNBOROUGH) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tuesday 28th April.
  BERRIEW SCHOOL BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  MILITARY LANDS ACT (1892) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Thursday.
  ESTATES TAIL ABOLITION BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  LAW AGENTS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Second Reading deferred till Tomorrow.
  EVENING SITTING.
    ORDERS OF THE DAY.

      PIERS AND HARBOURS (WALES).
      MR. HERBERT LEWISrose to move:—
      "That in the opinion of this House, in the interests of trade and communication by sea between places on the coast of Wales, and with a view to the protection and development of sea fisheries and the safety of the persons engaged in them, it is desirable that a Departmental Committee be appointed to inquire in what way and to what extent the existing provision of piers and harbours on the coast of Wales should be improved."
      He said he was glad that the Minister who represented the Government on that occasion was the President of the Board of Trade, because it was under his auspices that the House of Commons had given its sanction to the policy of the Light Railway Bill. The arguments by
      908
      which the introduction of that Bill was supported ran largely on the same lines as the arguments by which he would try to justify this Motion to the House. In introducing the Light Railway Bill, the President of the Board of Trade said:—
      "If they could do anything to bring the producer and consumer more closely together— if they could make more easy the distribution of produce—they would have done much to help both the producer and the consumer."
      Then referring to the complaints of high charges on the part of railway companies, he said:—
      "He was not prepared to deny that there was some ground for those complaints, but assuming that agriculturists who now possess railway facilities might fairly complain of railway charges, what of those producers who had no railway communication whatever to avail themselves of? If the position of the one class was bad, the House would admit that the position of agriculturists who had no means of railway communication was infinitely worse."
      That, unfortunately, was the position of a large part of the agricultural population who live on the coast of Wales. Evidence had been given before the Welsh Land Commission by the ex-chairman of the Cardiganshire County Council and others to the effect that in Wales, owing to the want of facilities, the sea had been very little utilised for the carriage of agricultural products. In some parts of the country—the peninsula of Lleyn for example—he was assured that facilities of water carriage were far more important to the agricultural classes than light railways, much as they were needed in that part of the country. He therefore hoped he would carry with him the President of the Board of Trade and the House, in the assertion of the principle which underlay his Motion. But the Light Railway Bill not only referred to agriculture—it proposed to develop the fishing interest as well, and here again the principle of his Motion was in complete accordance with the policy of that Measure. Taking a rough survey of the coast of Wales, and indicating a few out of the many important questions into which an Inquiry by a Departmental Committee would be of value, he would begin with the estuary of the Dee—the part of the Welsh coast with which he was most familiar. The River Dee, and all the ports along the estuary had

      909
      suffered severely owing to the abstraction of a large body of water for canal purposes at Ellesmere. Instead of being returned to the Dee it was diverted to another watershed, and from the time when this abstraction commenced this diversion had been probably the greatest contributory cause to the silting up of the Dee. The River Dee Commissioners, who were empowered during the last century to make works for the improvement of the navigation of the Dee and the reclamation of land, chiefly confined themselves to reclaiming land, and under their regime the navigation of the Dee became worse and worse. Within the last few years they had got rid of their obligations, so far as navigation was concerned, and had transferred them to the River Dee Conservancy Board. That body was doing its best, with the extremely limited means at its disposal, but those means were entirely inadequate. The channel had become tortuous, and the accumulation of sand-banks at one point of its course was so serious as to threaten at times the closure of the greater part of the Dee to navigation. The change which had taken place might be judged from the fact that Parkgate was in former times the port for Ireland, and that men-of-war used to lie at anchor under Flint Castle afloat even when the tide was out. It was only by private effort and at great expense, that the owners of the wharves along the Dee at Flint, Bagillt, Greenfield, Mostyn and the Point of Air could keep the gutters deep enough to enable vessels to approach. The possibility of restoring to the Dee the scouring power of which it had been wrongfully deprived had often been discussed, and it was a question which demanded and deserved full inquiry. If the navigation could only be relied upon, the works which now line the banks of the Dee Estuary would be largely increased. Facilities of railway communication and water carriage would do more to improve the estuary than any other agency could effect. Coming to the open sea, the need of a harbour of refuge somewhere between Holyhead and the Wild Roads had been felt for many years, and the existing harbour at Voryd near Rhyl possessed many natural advantages for the formation of a harbour of refuge. For
      910
      about half a mile in a seaward direction from the harbour into which the river Clwyd ran, the channel had been dredged to a depth of nine feet at low water mark. This dredging had been done by way of private enterprise for the sake of raising gravel for making concrete, and a considerable part of the work of making it a harbour of refuge had therefore actually been accomplished. For the last two or three years some dredging had been done in a seaward direction, and for that privilege the Board of Trade received £50 a year, but apparently they had not spent a penny of that money upon the improvement of the navigation between the channel of the Dee and the Voryd Harbour. What was urgently required was the continuation of the dredging to the sea by cutting through the bar of the estuary which was dry at low water on ordinary tides, thus enabling vessels of 10 to 15 feet draught of water to get in at the earliest stage of the tides, and steamers of light draught of water to get in and out at all times. It was most important that something should be done, and done quickly for the development of the natural advantages of this harbour. From 150 to 200 trading vessels, varying from 100 to 1,000 tons burden, visited the harbour annually, and were often exposed to much danger, and occasionally sustained serious damage. A large number of vessels loaded limestone at the unprotected Llandulas stages, and when a storm suddenly came on with the wind blowing from the north or north-west, as they had no harbour of refuge nearer than Wild Roads, vessels were lost every year because they were unable to run into Voryd Harbour. The local fishermen at Voryd had made several attempts to carry on their occupation outside the bar but they had found it too dangerous, as there was not enough water on the bar to enable them to run into harbour when they were caught in rough weather outside. Many a shipwreck had been caused on the Rhyl banks through the inability of these and other vessels under stress of weather to reach Wild Roads, or to cross the bar of the Clwyd into the harbour at Voryd. The expense of making Rhyl into a useful harbour of refuge for! vessels drawing up to 15 feet of water

      911
      and for small steamers, fishing boats and yachts, would be comparatively small and part of the work would be actually remunerative in itself. Those who now carried on dredging work paid the owner of the soil £100 a year, and the Board of Trade £50 a year, for the privilege of dredging for gravel. But the provision of a harbour of refuge at Rhyl was something more than a local question, and the town could not be expected to bear an expense which would be for the benefit of the coast between Holy-head and the Mersey. In any event there was a case for full inquiry on the part of the Board of Trade, in the interests of the safety of life and shipping property on the coast of North Wales. Such a harbour as the one he had indicated would prevent the loss of vessels every year; it would develop the fishing industry, it would cheapen the transit of goods from Liverpool to Rhyl and to the places of which Rhyl formed the centre, and incidentally it would give a great impetus to the tourist traffic between Lancashire and places on the coast of North Wales. That coast was one of great natural beauty; and it would be easily accessible from the crowded and populous centres of Lancashire and the Midlands if they only had such facilities for landing passengers as would encourage shipping companies to run lines of steamers along the coast. He could speak from personal experience of the enormous advantage which a landing place with a daily service of steamers conferred, not merely upon the immediate vicinity of the landing place, but also upon the whole of the surrounding country for many miles. A steamer seemed to bring life into the dullest place. The case of Holyhead Harbour and the great improvement which might be effected there by the removal of the Platter Rocks was not one which could properly be dealt with under this Motion. The discussion upon that subject would come more properly under the Board of Trade Vote. But with regard to Holyhead, he might remark, in passing, that notwithstanding the large sums spent upon the harbour, the place had hardly any local shipping trade of its own. There was no place where a tourist steamer could land passengers. The coast of Anglesey teemed
      912
      with fish, and yet the Anglesey people, largely owing to lack of proper facilities, were unable to participate in the fishing industry. He feared that excessive railway rates largely contributed to that condition of things. Given reasonable rates, and with a little encouragement, a profitable fishing industry could be established in Anglesey. There were also a number of places on the western coast of Wales where, at comparatively small expense, the fishing industry could be developed and the carriage of goods greatly cheapened— such places, for example, as Abersoch, Trevor, Porthysgadan and Porthgolmon on the Lleyn Peninsula, where nature had already done the greater part of the work. Such an industry would vivify the whole district, and would make the light railway which they were thinking of making a profitable undertaking. Pwllheli had a natural harbour, which might also be greatly improved. A breakwater at Borth, near Portmadoc, within the harbour, with gas buoys and leading lights during the season, would be a great stimulus to the fishing industry. Aberdovey was one of the best natural harbours on the coast. It could, and did, accommodate vessels carrying nearly 2,000 tons always afloat. A few years ago there was a line of steamers running between Aberdovey and Water-ford, but it was discontinued, largely because they could not get in and out at low water. The inner harbour offered capital facilities and accommodation, and if the bar was only dredged, the harbour would be one of the finest on the coast. There, with a little money judiciously spent, a breakwater might be constructed inside the harbour for the protection of fishing boats. The estuary was two miles broad at high water, and ran inland for several miles, consequently it was too rough in stormy weather, and the fishing boats adapted for the place, from 5 to 15 tons burthen, were frequently destroyed. If a breakwater were erected the fishing industry could be considerably developed. The importance of the harbour was shown by the fact that the Cambrian Railway Company had spent £10,000 upon it, but of course they could not be expected to undertake the development of the fishing industry. The facilities for the fishing industry on the coast of Cardiganshire

      913
      were extremely few, and a Departmental Committee would do very useful work by inquiring at what places and in what way the accommodation at places like Borth, Aberystwyth, Aberayron, New-quay, Cardigan, and Fish guard could be improved, giving protection to fishing boats and enabling steamers to call. He would leave others better acquainted than he was with that coast and that of South Wales, to speak on the subject, but the remarks he had made will] reference to the North Wales coast; applied with equal force; to that of South Wales. In connection with the fishing industry, facilities of communication were of the greatest importance. The Light Railway Bill would in a few cases help fishing districts to send their produce to market quickly, but regular communication by coasting steamers would do much more, and if Government aid were available for the creation of new harbours and landing places, an inducement would be given to steamboat companies conducting the traffic to increase the number of their ports of call. The existence of the present state of things in too many cases left the fishermen half idle and the artisans of the towns imperfectly and irregularly supplied with fish. The Crofters Commission acting upon this view gave expression to the opinion—
      "That the Government acting on the one hand on behalf of a people crippled in their powers by the stubborn features of nature, and, on the other hand, in the inrerests of an industry of national importance as a source of food supply to the whole community, might step in and grant financial assistance. The possible loss to the public exchequer would be small: the link between the toiler of the sea and the toiler of the town would be profitable to both."
      And they declined to discuss in principle, as it was unnecessary for him to discuss, the question of Government aid to useful enterprise prompted by motives of general concern. Some years ago the country was deeply stirred on the fisheries question. It was not so easy now to obtain its ear on that question, but its importance in relation to our national food supply still remained undiminished. While the subject matter of his Motion did not, refer to the vast trading interests of the industrial districts of South Wales, it was closely connected with them, at least in one
      914
      respect. The coal and iron trades of South Wales could take good care of themselves in regard to the proper provision of piers and harbours. Magnificent docks had been constructed at Cardiff, Barry, and elsewhere. The improved provision of which his Resolution spoke did not in any way refer to them, because a great trade could always create its own facilities for transport. At the same time, now that trade was not so flourishing as it once was, and the margin of profit had become considerably smaller, it was a matter of the utmost importance to those great industrial districts that any extension of dock, pier or harbour accommodation which they might require should not be unduly weighted by the heavy cost—in large part the quite; unnecessary cost—of obtaining the necessary Parliamentary powers. Take the case of the construction of the Barry Dock. The expenditure required to put the Barry Dock Bill through Parliament was enormous. He believed he was correct in saying that taking both sides into account, it ran into hundreds of thousands of pounds. Speaking with a due sense of the fitness of the words one ought to use, and with a due sense of proportion, he could not help stigmatising that expenditure as monstrous. It was unnecessary, unproductive, and largely gone to swell the already bloated incomes of Parliamentary agents and counsel. The President of the Board of Trade, when at the Local Government Board, was the author of a policy of decentralisation which he very wisely inaugurated some years ago, and which he would doubtless have carried out successfully, had he been allowed by a certain set of authorities to do so. If he had had his way, it would have been possible to construct piers and harbours at very much smaller expense than is now necessary. It was to be hoped his successor would press forward that policy to a successful conclusion, and if he were to appoint a Departmental Committee their Report would certainly strengthen his hands in that direction. He had been asked why he desired this Motion to apply to the coast of Wales alone, to which he. replied that he was best acquainted with the Welsh coast line, and that Wales was a maritime country, 10 out of her 13 counties being

      915
      maritime counties. The conformation of the coast, broken up as it was into creeks and bays, lent itself easily to the development of intercommunication by steamer, and rendered the construction of harbours easier. It did not present a blank front of chalk cliffs or a flat expanse with a shallow approach. It was not a wild, rock-bound, inaccessible coast, and with the exception of a part of the coast on the Bristol Channel it had not those great trades and industries which made the expense of improving communication a comparatively small matter in richer portions of the country. It was impossible for private enterprise, however widely extended it may be, to consider a scheme of this kind as a whole. The Welsh County Councils might have considered the question, but, so far, they had no power to meet to confer on a question of this kind. It was only a Government Department like the Board of Trade, acting through a Departmental Committee, whose inquiries would be supplemented by all the accumulative knowledge and experience of the able officials of that Department, which could adequately estimate the capabilities of the coast, and suggest a plan by which its resources might be developed. The inquiry would serve the useful purpose of ascertaining to what extent and in what way the food supply of the Welsh coast could be developed. The sea along the coast of Wales teemed with fish, and the fisheries were capable of vast extension. The Fishery Boards which had been established along the coast were doing their best for the protection of the fisheries, and they bore the entire cost of the work, although the question was one in which inland counties were just as much interested. But these Boards had no power to make those substantial improvements without which the fishing industry could not be properly developed. The next Motion on the Paper in which a number of Members took great interest dealt with the national food supply of
      916
      this country, especially in time of war. If facilities for landing fish and sending them to market were increased, the food supply of the country was thereby augmented. If better accommodation for fishermen were provided, an industry would be developed which would make the most of that inexhaustible harvest of the sea which constituted one of the most important portions of our national food supply. It was quite possible that in time of war some fisheries might have to be abandoned, the fishermen not caring to risk capture by the enemy's cruisers, but in a comparatively protected region like that of the Welsh coast, it would be possible for them to go on with their work unimpeded. If there was any real danger that in time of war our food supply might fall short, then the desirability of developing sea fisheries was of as great importance to large towns like Birmingham, as to places on the sea coast. He was not asking the Government to do anything rash—anything for which they had not already a precedent, by way of inquiry, grant, and legislation. The Highlands and Islands Act of 1891 had authorised the Treasury to make grants towards the construction of piers, harbours, and boatslips in the Highlands. But even if there had been no precedent, he thought he had made out a primâ facie case for inquiry, independent of precedent. This Government had come into power upon a Programme of social legislation. They were to have ''better trade." Well, this was a "better trade'' Resolution. Could they find a more natural or legitimate means of promoting the well-being of maritime countries, and of indirectly imparting no small benefit to inland counties, than the development of coast communication. Was there one more greatly needed? Its benefit to the farmer, the trader, and those who were in various ways dependent upon both, would be very considerable. It might be the means of starting new and important industries, to whose

      917
      commencement and profitable working cheapness of transit was essential. The system was already in existence in part; the harbours were there, most of the work had been done by Nature. What they wanted to know was, providing what exists now was supplemented, if the missing links were supplied, would the accruing benefit be sufficient to justify the Government in taking further action, or in empowering localities or the County Councils to take action, either singly or jointly? They only asked for Inquiry. Let that Inquiry be of as practical and searching a character as possible, and he felt confident chat good would result. They denied Wales the great objects on which the hearts of the great majority of her people were set. Although she had recorded immense majorities time after time, for certain great Measures, the voice of the majority of her people was overborne by an English majority. She had asked for great reforms, and although there existed at the present time among Welsh Members, a majority more preponderant in proportion than the one which now keeps the Government in power, the desires of the people whom that majority represents will have no chance of being carried into effect for a lung time to come. The same was the cast; with Ireland, but they had affirmed their intention, in the case of Ireland, of pursuing a generous policy towards that country. They asked that the same should be done in the case of Wales. There were two great questions upon which the Unionist Party won the last General Election—one was their opposition to interference with vested interests, the other was their avowed desire to promote trade. Now, if the object he had in view was carried out, it would interfere; with no vested interest in any shape or form, but if the Inquiry for which he asked resulted in any improvement of the piers and harbours on the coast of Wales, it would promote and develop trade on the coast—the kind of
      918
      object which the present Government considered that it existed to promote. They did not ask for a grant, or for legislation, although they had precedents for both; they only asked for an Inquiry. If they were to ask for a grant, they would be perfectly justified on the ground that both as regards the Crown property, and grants in aid of local authorities, Wales had suffered severely. Crown property in Wales had been sold to the value of £110,000, the money had been taken out of Wales and had been invested very largely in London ground rents. It would be far more fitting that it should be invested in some enterprise that would be of permanent benefit to Wales. With regard to the grants in aid, it had been shown in the House the other day that Wales received loss than her share by £60,000 per annum, in proportion to population, Since the year 1888, she had lost nearly half-a-million sterling on that account. He, therefore, hoped that the President of the Board of Trade would carry to its logical issue the policy he had adopted this Session, with a view to the development of inland communication, and that he would agree to the holding of an Inquiry as to the extent to which a similar policy might be carried out on the neglected coast of Wales. For the sake of the fisherman, the agriculturist, and the trader, to safeguard life and property on the Welsh coast, and to develop new and profitable industries, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would assent to the Motion. He begged to move the Resolution.
      MR. LLOYD-GEORGEseconded the Resolution. On the Estimates last year he had put the case of one particular port in South Carnarvonshire to the right hon. Gentleman, who had promised that if an application, were made by some responsible authority for that port he would make an Inquiry. All that his hon. Friend asked was that the right hon. Gentleman should extend that Inquiry so far as the Welsh coast was concerned. In Cardigan Bay

      919
      there had been formerly a very important fishing industry which had now decayed, and with the exception of one or two small ports the industry had almost completely disappeared, because there was no single harbour of refuge in that part of Wales at all.
      ADMIRAL FIELDwas understood to say that there was no harbour of refuge on the West coast at all.
      MR. LLOYD-GEORGEsaid, there was no harbour of refuge to which a ship could run in a storm on the whole of the west coast of Wales. The researches of the Scottish Fishery Board had proved that the fish, decade after decade, sheered further out to sea. The consequence was that the fishing industry required craft of a very much larger size than in vogue 50 years ago, and harbours were needed into which boats of 40 or 50 tons might put in any weather. The rateable value of the small towns was very small, and it was not to be expected that they could burden themselves with an expenditure of £30,000 or £40,000 — an expenditure, moreover, which would be for the benefit of the whole of the western coast of Wales. Pwllheli had only 2,000 or 3,000 inhabitants, and Aberdovey had only about 2,000. They could only come to the Imperial Parliament for these harbours, and the process was an extremely expensive one. His hon. Friend had referred to the extreme case of the Barry Docks, but there were many cases in which the hardship was felt. This had been shown recently in the case of Bangor, which required to make not a harbour, but a pier, and had to spend £3,000 or £4,000 in order first to get an Act of Parliament. The pier was for the benefit of the whole surrounding country, but the ratepayers of Bangor had to bear the burden of erecting it. The Government ought either to make the harbours they needed for them, or give a central authority in Wales the power of making them. He trusted that the President of the
      920
      Board of Trade would at any rate accede to the modest request for a Committee to inquire. It was a matter of general interest and not merely a question for the west coast of Wales. The decay of the fishing industry was a serious matter from the point of view of naval defence. We complained of the decay of our mercantile marine and of the employment of Lascars, and foreign seamen, and that furnished a reason for reviving a decayed industry in a locality which at one time was one of the best recruiting grounds for our Navy.
      *GENERAL LAURIEsaid, he strongly supported the Motion, and he would mention in support of it a serious and a growing evil which called for inquiry whether something could not be done to remedy it. The population of the county of Pembrokeshire was rapidly diminishing. In 1881, it was 91,000; and in 1891 only 82,000, and while the population was diminishing the poor rate was increasing, although not to the same extent. It was therefore reasonable to ask the Board of Trade to ascertain whether anything could be done to restore the former prosperity of the county. There were two ways in which it could be done. One was by further developing the industry of the population itself, and the other was by the creation of a through trade. In the early days of the Great Western Railway, Mr. Brunel selected Fishguard as a suitable point where a harbour might be constructed for the mail route to Ireland; there was a bay which with a moderate outlay might be made a practicable harbour on the route of a transit trade with Wexford, while trade would not be taken away from any other port. A steamer might very well run daily between Wexford and Fishguard, and would obtain full cargo. Arrangements were being made for the construction of a wet dock at Porth Grain, and a steamship line was proposed whence agri-

      921
      cultural produce could be shipped to Manchester through the Ship Canal. If the people of the rural districts could only obtain such a market for their produce, that would stop the diminution of the population. It was not unreasonable to ask for inquiry whether something could not be done to restore prosperity or increase it along the coast of Wales; but he should have been glad if the Motion had dealt with harbours all round the coasts of the United Kingdom.
      *SIR CAMERON GULLrose to move the first of two Amendments, which were in each ease to insert "England and" before "Wales." He said he did so in no sense in hostility to the Motion. He entirely recognised, as indeed any Member must, the urgent need of further harbour accommodation in Wales; but he believed the House would also recognise that there was further need of harbour accommodation in other parts of the United Kingdom. This was no new question; it had been agitated from 1836 to the present time. As long ago as 1860 a Motion was carried, although opposed by the Government of the day, recognising the principle of grants of public money towards the construction of harbours. In 1861, by the Harbours and Passing Tolls Act, there was laid down the general principle under which Governments have acted down to the present time. It was that, as a rule, harbours should not be built at the public expense, but that loans should be granted for the purpose of building them at low rates of interest to localities that could offer securities for the loans. He did not ask the Board of Trade to give up the principle of building harbours through loans; but In; did ask attention to the exceptions that had been recognised. They were, first, national harbours of refuge, such as Dover, Holyhead, and Peterhead; these, important as they were, were foreign to the Resolution of to-night, because their construction was de-
      922
      termined by considerations of national defence and the protection of our naval and mercantile marines. The second exception was that of small and poor districts which required harbours. To Ireland a grant was made in 1883 of £250,000 for harbours; and there is an annual harbour grant of £3,000 to Scotland. He did not complain of these grants, indeed he was glad they had been made; but he wished to urge that there were places on the coasts of England which had the same claims as places in Scotland and Ireland. The making of exceptions to the general rule was recognised by the Select Committee of 1884, who, in their Report, said:—
      "Your Committee believe that grants of public money may, to a limited extent, be Marie in aid of works which provide purely refuges chiefly for fishermen at certain portions of our coast to which a large number of boats belong" and off which great fisheries are prosecuted, while the existing harbours are only accessible to the boats at a. limited portion of each. tide. Your Committee believe that it falls entirely within the province of Government to provide the much needed refuge in these districts, it being absolutely impossible that the fishermen themselves can raise sufficient funds for such works, or find security upon which to borrow money to carry them out.
      It was not a very large matter, six or eight works costing from £80,000 to £100,000 each would meet all the demands that were made. The Committee proceeded to point out generally the districts where they were needed, and the Committee earnestly recommended the appointment of a small Commission, embracing in its number two engineers and a nautical man of great experience to inquire carefully and thoroughly into this subject, and more especially into the requirements of localities indicated with the view of determining the exact sites at which refuge works could best be carried out. Lest the objection should be made that this was only the suggestion of a roving inquiry, the Committee pointed to an example of admirable work performed with regard to the Norwegian coasts by a Royal Commission appointed by the Norwegian Government to report

      923
      on. the necessities of their coasts. The principles laid down were that refuge and shelter were more important than trade, and that fishery harbours for poor fishermen should be very favourably considered. Setting aside the question of national harbours of refuge, what he wished to urge was that there were on the English coasts small places with coasting trade and fishing trade capable of expansion that were almost entirely neglected, and that the maritime counties of England equally with those of Wales stood in need of any assistance which the House could give. Other maritime counties were as well adapted for further accommodation as Wales, as for instance Devon and Cornwall, where harbours were needed to prevent the loss of life which now went on.
      *MR. LEWISsaid there was a financial difficulty.
      *SIR C. GULLagreed. But the question of finance did not affect Wales only. The difficulty was felt equally in England.
      MR. LEWISsaid, Wales received £60,000 a year too, and a little by way of grants in aid.
      *SIR C. GULLsaid, even if the hon. Member's Motion were accepted, and the Government handed over £60,000, it did not follow that it would be applied for the purpose of harbours. It would be dealt with by the county councils, which had not the power to deal properly with the question of harbours. The hon. Member's argument that this matter should be dealt with, not piecemeal, but as a whole, supported his own contention, that it not only affected Wales, but the United Kingdom, and he hoped the Inquiry asked for would not be confined to Wales. He need not occupy the time of the House to show the need for further harbours of refuge. During the years from 1877–78 to 1882–84, there were 3,694 lives lost and 16,000 casualties, excluding collisions. The last Report told the same sad tale. He would not
      924
      quote the example of foreign Governments. France, on harbours of refuge, had spent £11,000,000; Germany, £1,000,000; Belgium, £2,500,000. But our own Government had admitted that it was their duty in exceptional cases to provide harbours. The Resolution of the House of 1860, the Act of 1861, and the Select Committee of 1884, had recognised this. The treatment of Ireland and Scotland in later years in questions of harbours had strengthened the hands of those who asked for the same treatment for England and Wales. Were not our coasts as dangerous and the traffic and fishing industry as large? Had we not as poor struggling districts as Ireland and Scotland? On the coasts of Devon, from Land's End to Bristol, there were no harbours of refuge. In the storm of last October there were 12 vessels in danger and four wrecks within sight of his own windows. Two of these wrecks involved the loss of every man on board. The harbours existing were only available at high water. At low water they were dry, and he hoped the Board of Trade would inquire whether one or more harbours could not be made available at other states of tide. At Clovelly, there was considerable traffic. It was the only place the Bideford boats could run to, because they were forbidden to go near Bideford bar at low water. He believed that by an addition, at small expense, to the existing breakwater, sufficient water could be enclosed to enable fishing vessels, and coasters to take refuge in storms. But though they could show ground for exceptional treatment, sailors and fishermen had a right to ask help as a matter of justice. Sailors and fishermen, were taxed and rated for roads rarely used by them. The roads were the means of communication between producer and consumer. Harbours were the means of communication between the sea producer and the consumer, and were as necessary for sailors and fishermen as the roads for those inland. Why should not those inland

      925
      be rated and taxed for harbours as the seafarers were for the roads. The demand was a small one. The appointment of a small Committee was recommended by the Committee of 1884. He was willing that the Inquiry should begin on the coasts of Wales, but whatever was done for 'Wales ought to be done for England as well. He trusted that in justice to the villages around our coast, to whom we looked for men for the best recruiting material for our Navy, our first line of defence, a favourable and sympathetic answer would be given by the Board of Trade, and that the present Government would take practical steps to carry out recommendations which had been too long allowed to sleep. The hon. Baronet concluded! by moving his Amendment.
      *CAPTAIN PHILLPOTTSseconded the Amendment, observing that the arguments which had been used in favour of Wales would apply with equal force to the case of England. In the county of Devon the question of the provision of harbours of refuge and of accommodation for the fishing fleets had for many years excited a great deal of interest. He remembered an influential meeting, composed of representatives from all parts of the county, being held at Exeter, eleven years ago, at which a resolution was unanimously adopted on this subject, but they had advanced no further since that date. There was no doubt that in England, and especially on the coast of Devon, the fishing communities had largely borrowed money, and done all within their power to help themselves; and, because they had done so, he contended, that was no reason why the Government should not come forward and help them. It was, in fact, a generally accepted maxim that those who helped themselves should be helped by the powers having control over them. At the present time a Bill was in preparation for the extension of the fishing harbour of Brixham, but if this Resolu-
      926
      tion were accepted by the President of the Hoard of Trade, and a Committee appointed to consider the question, it would be found that, for the expenditure of a very small sum of money, a harbour might be erected on the south coast of Devon that would, to a large extent, relieve the fishing community of Brixham from the necessity of enlarging their harbour as they proposed to do. He referred to the urgent necessity for creating a harbour of refuge in Torbay where, in certain states of the wind, ships were compelled to seek shelter, although when the wind blew from the east it did not afford a safe anchorage. Some years ago a number of ships anchored in Torbay to obtain shelter from a westerly gale, when suddenly the wind shifted eastwards, and something like 70 or 80 ships and hundreds of lives were lost. If there had been a breakwater in the bay these valuable lives and property might have been saved, and this was a necessary work which ought at once to be undertaken. There was at the present time no harbour of refuge from Plymouth up to Portland, and Portland in itself was not a good harbour. He had only mentioned Torbay as one place, but he supported the Amendment because he regarded this as a national and not a local question which ought to be dealt with in a broad and comprehensive spirit, and he earnestly hoped the President of the Board of Trade would see fit to grant the Inquiry that was asked for.
      *SIR G. OSBORNE MORGANobserved that, while no fine would complain of the Mover and Seconder of the Amendment endeavouring to extend the scope of the Motion, everybody who knew Wales must admit that there was a great difference between the case of England and Wales, which came much nearer to those of the Western Highlands or the West Coast of Ireland. In the Principality the people were much poorer, and therefore much more in

      927
      need of public assistance, whilst they had not had their due proportion of State aid. They had no large wealthy towns in Wales—if they excepted Glamorganshire—such as there were on the west coast of England, and it was absurd to talk about small Welsh villages raising sufficient money out of their own rates to provide for piers and harbours. No part of the country stood more in need of piers and harbours than Wales, and, at the same time, there was none more adapted by nature for the formation of such necessary works. He had lived a great portion of his life on an inhospitable part of the coast between Bangor and Rhyl, and no person unacquainted with the district could have the slightest idea of the frightful loss of life and property caused by shipwrecks, especially among the fishing fleets, which might have been avoided if a comparatively small amount had been expended in providing the protection for them which had been sketched out by the Mover of the Resolution. The provision of these harbours too was of more importance to Wales for the carriage of agricultural produce than light railways. Sea-carriage must be cheaper than land-carriage, and he defied the President of the Board of Trade, however economical he was, to construct a light railway which would carry their produce as cheaply as coasting vessels. The whole conditions of the fishing industry had changed. In former times fishing was done in small boats, but now it was carried on in boats of such tonnage that they could not go into these small harbours. The fishing industry was greatly crippled for want of piers and harbours which had been alluded to in the course of the Debate. The part of the country which they represented was an essentially poor one, and under these circumstances they were obliged to sue informa pauperis. They had not the means for doing these things themselves, and they honestly believed that, if the right hon.
      928
      Gentleman would grant the facilities and the protection which the Motion asked for, they would prove in the end to be remunerative. But they did not ask the right hon. Gentleman to go so far as that. They merely asked for an Inquiry which had for its scope the coast of Wales, and he trusted that the Resolution would receive the favourable attention of the President of the Board of Trade.
      MR. LAMBERTpleaded for the construction of harbours of refuge on the coast of North Devon, where the loss of life when gales swept across the Atlantic, was enormous. It would be an act of humanity to erect these harbours into which ships could run when they were overtaken by these gales. They had done their utmost to provide this protection out of their own resources, but they were only a small and struggling community, and could not afford the large expenditure which was essential for the building of such harbours. They appealed, therefore, to the Government for an extension of that aid which they had so generously given them in the matter of light railways, to the erection of harbours of refuge, not only on the coast of Wales, but also on the coast of Devonshire and other parts of England.
      ADMIRAL FIELDexpressed his general sympathy with the object the hon. Member opposite had in view, but said he desired to go into the merits of the question and to look minutely into the words of the Resolution. He was surprised that the right hon. Baronet the Leader of the Welsh Party should have spoken from such a limited point of view, and have confined this question —if there was any bottom in it at all— simply to a corner of a small country like Wales.
      *SIR G. OSBORNEMORGAN: I did not desire to confine it to Wales, but I urged that the case of Wales was an exceptional one.
      ADMIRAL FIELDsaid, that in view of the admirable and reasonable Amend-

      929
      ment of the hon. Baronet behind him (Sir W. Cameron Gull), how could the right hon. Baronet opposite not be willing to support it and make the question applicable to the whole country. The right hon. Gentleman did not take the broad view of the question that they might have expected from a Statesman of his experience. The hon. Member for the Torquay Division also took a somewhat limited view of the matter. He talked about there being no harbour between Torquay and Portland on the south coast of England. Why, those places were only 60 miles apart. As to the Motion itself, the speeches of the Mover and Seconder did not agree with its terms; for while they spoke of harbours of refuge, the Motion really referred to fishing harbours only. But there was a great difference between harbours of refuge and fishing harbours, and nature was altogether against the proposal to construct harbours of refuge on the west coast of Wales, for that coast did not present any places really adapted to them. Nor did he think they were altogether necessary there. Sailors in a gale would rather try to keep as far away as possible from the coast of Wales, and keep good sea room. [Laughter.] Moreover, to call on the Government to construct harbours of refuge, not only on the coast of Wales, but on the coasts of England also, was an unreasonable demand, and he could not support so wild a proposal. It was one which, in regard to considerations of expenditure alone, the Government could not be expected to concede. The hon. and gallant Member for Pembroke had spoken of that port in connection with the subject, but the ease of Pembroke was different. That was a naval port of much importance, and it was the absolute duty of the Government to see that it was put and kept in an efficient condition. ["Hear, hear!"] The construction of harbours of refuge, however, was a very large and important matter, and was not to be undertaken on any part of our coasts without serious consideration, for unless they were fortified they would become objects of attack to an enemy in time of war and thus possibly points of danger to the country. A harbour of refuge had been advocated at Dover, and simply because that place would be
      930
      powerfully fortified. Therefore, the work of constructing a harbour of refuge involved much more than the construction of a harbour of shelter for fishing boats. ["Hear, hear!"] If the supporters of the Motion had confined their appeal to the provision of fishing harbours many hon. Members might have regarded the subject from a different point of view, and have voted in favour of it. He submitted to the House that neither the Motion nor the Amendment was worthy of serious argument, they were impracticable. Sailors, as a rule, were not very fond of harbours of refuge; they desired rather to guard against the under manning and overloading of vessels and sending un-seaworthy ships to sea. ["Hear, hear!"] Legislation should be such as to take care that our ships should be well manned, well built, and not overloaded. If there was such legislation there would not be the present demand for the Lifeboat Institution and other benevolent institutions of that kind, and for harbours of refuge all round the coast of Wales. If the Resolution were to be made a sensible one the Amendment of the hon. Baronet muse be accepted; certainly the word "fishing" must be inserted before "harbours" otherwise he for one could not support it.
      SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid the greater part of the speech of the hon. and gallant Member was occupied in denouncing the demand for harbours of refuge. It might console the hon. and gallant Gentleman to know that the words "harbours of refuge" did not occur in the Resolution at all. What was asked for was the construction of piers and harbours. The gallant Admiral said if these piers and harbours were intended for development of the fishing industry there might be something in the Resolution, and if there was the word "fishing" in the Resolution he would have been disposed to support it. He hoped that at this the eleventh hour the hon. and gallant Gentleman would read the Resolution, for he would find that it stated that these piers and harbours were desired "with a view to the protection and development of sea fisheries and the safety of the persons engaged in them."[Laughter.] If this were a Resolution demanding great breakwaters in Torbay or in places of that character he

      931
      would not care about giving it any support. Expenditure upon things of that kind was not to be lightly undertaken. But he looked upon this Resolution in a totally different light. It was a moderate and reasonable proposal mainly in favour of the fishing industry on the Welsh coast. The hon. and gallant Member had frequently deplored the want of fishermen for the Reserve of the Navy and the employment of foreign sailors. Under those circumstances he should have thought any proposal which would develop the fishing industry on the coast of Wales or anywhere else would have secured the gallant Admiral's support. What was asked for in this case had been given in many parts of the "United Kingdom, and therefore he hoped the President of the Board of Trade would be able and disposed to give a favourable consideration to the Resolution.
      THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. C. T. RITCHIE,)could not help sympathising with the right hon. Gentleman in the position in which he found himself. The right hon. Gentleman supported the Resolution, but hinted that if the word "England" were added to it the expenditure would be enormous and he could not approve of it. He undertook to say if the right hon. Gentleman were Member for Derby and sitting on the Treasury Bench, he would have regarded the Resolution from a totally different point of view. What did the Resolution mean? The right hon. Gentleman asked the gallant Admiral to read the Resolution. Well, the Resolution must be read, of course, with the light of the speeches which had been made in support of it. It meant this or it meant nothing—that the policy which had been pursued by all Governments, including that of which the right hon. Gentleman had been a Member, a policy of refusing to give grants of public money for the purpose of these piers and harbours, should be departed from. Then it was proposed to appoint a Departmental Committee. What did a Departmental Committee propose to do? Certainly it was not a properly constituted tribunal to decide whether a harbour should be erected in a particular part of the coast. Surely this was a matter which was much more familiar to
      932
      the local authorities than to a Departmental Committee of the Board of Trade. Having regard to the speeches by which this Motion had been supported, and looking to the fact that all the speakers had pointed out the inability of the localities to supply harbours themselves, and consequently asked the Government to apply public funds in the erection of those harbours, he would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether a Departmental Committee could decide on such an important matter as that? There had been many Committees and many investigations as to the amount of money which would be involved if this policy were adopted.
      SIR W. HARCOURT: What policy?
      MR. RITCHIE: The policy of Government grants for the erection of these harbours. The amount stated as probably necessary for the purpose was from eight to ten millions sterling. ["Oh!"] He was speaking, not of great Government harbours, but of harbours of refuge, fishing and mercantile harbours. Everyone recognised that for the great harbours for military and naval purposes the Government ought properly to be called upon to provide the funds. These were not in question at all now. [''Hear, hear!"] It was the smaller harbours. The right hon. Gentleman might pooh-pooh it, but it was impossible to contemplate for a moment that a matter of this importance should be referred to a Departmental Committee. It was a matter with which the House ought to deal, with which the Government ought to deal without the assistance of a Departmental Committee. The subject was one which had been investigated over and over again. In earlier time the investigations did lean towards the grant from the Government for the purpose of these harbours, but the consideration given to the matter of late years had resulted in one conclusion —namely, that it was not in the interests of the country that the Government should take out of the hands of private enterprise the erection of these harbours. The Government was, in fact, debarred from the application of public money by a Treasury Minute, which laid it down that money should only be granted for the purpose of these harbours by way of loans. He was not in a position to argue the question with regard to the

      933
      various points along the coast which had been mentioned, but why did not the local authorities in those places come before the Government with some matured scheme for a harbour? If any localities desired to borrow money, let them put their case in a concrete form and it should have the fullest consideration by the Government. There was no necessity to appoint a Departmental Committee to consider an application; it was the duty of the Board of Trade to consider all these proposals; if they were submitted they would receive the most sympathetic consideration. If, on the 'other hand, it was desired generally to obtain grants of public money, he had to say that the making of grants was contrary to the policy that had been adopted by successive Governments for a number of years past, and affirmed by the House of Commons six or seven times in recent years. That policy was that Parliament would not give grants of public money for these purposes, but that any assistance given by the Government must be by way of loan. That was the policy of the present Government. It was the same policy as that which had been pursued by the Leader of the Opposition; and, if he adhered to it now, where was the necessity for a Committee? What were they going to inquire into? They could not go roving, all trying to find out where harbours were to be erected; they must wait until local authorities or persons interested put before them concrete proposals. If they were debarred from giving grants of public money no investigation could alter that condition of things. It was true grants had been made under exceptional circumstances in Ireland and Scotland; but in Scotland they were given on the recommendation of a Royal Commission —[ironical cheers]—who pointed out that there were certain parts of the country in so impoverished a condition as to be totally unable to help themselves. [Ironical cheers.] Very well, if hon. Gentlemen had corresponding districts in their minds—[''hear, hear!'']—with regard to which they desired to make representations to the Government, those representations, when made, would be considered by the Government. But that was a different thing from saying generally that there were certain districts which might be developed if they had
      934
      harbours. In the Resolution there was nothing that pointed to exceptional poverty and disability; and the adoption of it would seem to imply a change of general policy to the suggestion of which the Government was bound to give a distinct negative. Something had been said about the expense to be incurred in the taking of certain steps to form harbour authorities. Any practical difficulty of that kind he should be glad to consider with a view to its removal; but in offering an interview he could not leave it to be supposed that the general position he had taken up would be shaken. He had no option in the matter. Having regard to the Minute of 1887, he was bound to consider all demands as being applications made under that Minute. He sympathised with those who desired to increase the prosperity of the coasts of England and Wales, but his sympathy could not go to the length they wished. When hon. Members realised what was involved in the Resolution they would no depart from a policy to which the House had assented over and over again; an the Government could not assent to a principle which would involve the expenditure of millions of public money to do what they believed would be better done, and ought to be, done by the localities themselves.
      MR. ABEL THOMASsaid, the coast of Wales stood in an entirely different position to the coast of England, except in regard to the north coast of Devonshire, where, he admitted, similar conditions were present. They could show that it was absolutely impossible for the people in the district extending from Milford Haven round to Holyhead—the whole western coast, to make a port adequate for fishing boats without a very large expenditure of money. To say that little places like Fishguard or Forth, should come to the President of the Local Government Board and ask for a loan of even only £10,000 would be ridiculous. They would certainly want more than that sum, not less, he should think than £50,000. There was absolutely no hope of their getting any kind of harbour for the protection of fishing vessels from Milford Haven round to Holyhead, which was the whole of the west coast of Wales, unless a grant was given by the

      935
      Government in aid of some port or other. When the wind was blowing in to the coast there was no more dangerous coast in Great Britain to be found than that from Milford Haven up to Holyhead. If a small fishing vessel, or even a large vessel or steamer was within the range of that coast when a strong west wind was blowing, it was utterly impossible for them to run across to the eastern coast of Ireland. The fact was, there was no great manufacturing town or district on the west coast of Wales; it was entirely agricultural. In the past a very large fishing trade had been conducted there, and when all the fishing boats were small boats, they ran into the little harbours at high water between the tides. But the fishing industry had now entirely altered, and ships and steamers went out to sea for many days at a time. They suggested to the Government, therefore, in order to meet the changed conditions, that they should make this Inquiry. They did not ask for harbours for men-of-war or great ships, but harbours that might be used by the fishing craft of the present day. There was no part of Great Britain where better sailors were turned out than on the western coast of Wales. If the Government did make this Inquiry, he thought they would come to the conclusion that grants in aid would be advisable, as had been given in the case of the western coast of Ireland, and some parts of the coast of Scotland. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would reconsider his decision and grant the Inquiry asked for in the Motion.
      MR. T. R. BUCHANANthought the fishing community not merely in Wales, but in other parts of the country, would regret the statement of the President of the Board of Trade. The policy which the right hon. Gentleman had referred to under the Treasury Minute had absolutely broken down as regarded the supply of fishing harbours for the fishing community. There were several instances where the fishermen had subscribed a considerable sum of money for the construction of a harbour, and afterwards found that they were utterly unable to satisfy the conditions of the Board of Trade or the Public Works Loan Commissioners. The Committee of 1884, upon harbour accommodation, made a most complete and
      936
      valuable Report, but neither the last two Governments, nor, apparently, the present Government, seemed disposed to take any steps to carry out any of the recommendations of that Committee, either in regard to the larger or the smaller fishing harbours. When the case of Wales was presented, or that of different parts of the coasts of England or Scotland, they were not asking for doles of public money. The Government should be able, in this time of prosperity to hold out some hope that they would be able to modify the policy of the past so as to meet the real necessities of the case. He hoped, also that the Government would look carefully into the expenses which were inherent in the system of obtaining Provisional Orders, and that an attempt would be made to simplify and cheapen it. On behalf of the fishing industry there was an urgent necessity all round our coasts calling for something to be done, and the Government ought to consider whether they could not adapt their policy so as to meet the needs of the case, and to carry out some of the recommendations of the numerous Committees that had sat on the subject.
      MR. HERBERT ROBERTScould not agree with the President of the Board of Trade in what he said with reference to the attitude of the Leader of the Opposition at this time with reference to Welsh demands. It was said that if the right hon. Gentleman had been on the Treasury Bench he would not have shown so much sympathy with the Resolution. In his opinion, however, the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman towards Welsh demands, and the way in which he had met them in the past, led him to think that this would not have been the case. He did not think that the President of the Board of Trade quite clearly understood the meaning of the Resolution. The right hon. Gentleman said that there were no precedents for the policy advocated in the Resolution. There were precedents for what the Welsh Members were asking. In the first place there was the case of the Highlands of Scotland, where public money had been given for the purposes asked. Secondly, there was Ireland, which had received £250,000 from the Irish Church Fund to devote to the development of Irish

      937
      fisheries. What had been done in Scotland and Ireland, therefore, should, under similar principles, be done in Wales also. The right hon. Gentleman said that the money should only be given by way of a loan. This had not been the policy in the past. From 1828 to 1882, 28 harbours had been erected in connection with the Scottish fisheries. An expenditure of over £243,000 had been incurred, and out of that sum expended on Scottish fisheries, £150,000 had been provided by Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman said that it would be very much better that the local authorities of the various localities on the coast of Wales should come to London to state their case. His reply to that was that they wanted the subject to be put before the House and the country in some general form. They did not want to know merely what one small district required, but what the whole of Wales required in this respect. The right hon. Gentleman could not have realised that Wales did not receive her fair share of the Treasury grant in proportion to her population. Wales ought to have £12,500 a year. They based their case upon the exceptional circumstances of Wales. He had no objective principle to the Amendment moved by the hon. Baronet opposite, and the Resolution was not proposed in any sense of hostility to England. What they said was that the case of Wales was exceptional, and because it was exceptional they asked that a Committee should be appointed in order to make inquiries. Wales, especially North Wales, was poorer than any other part of the country. The Income Tax returns showed that North Wales was much poorer than England. He hoped that the right hon. Gentleman opposite, remembering the peculiarly depressed condition of Welsh agriculture and Welsh industries, would consent to reconsider to some extent the reply which he had made that night.
      CAPTAIN BETHELLobserved that questions of
      938
      this kind were certainly assuming greater importance than they assumed a few years ago. He agreed with his right hon. Friend that, however important these questions might be, the House stood upon firm ground when they declined to pay out public money for the assistance of any locality, unless that locality could give some reasonable security for the advance made. If the policy of promoting these small harbours of refuge—as to the great usefulness of which there was room for doubt—were to be adopted in the future, he trusted that it would be laid down as a condition that the County Council or Fishery Board of a district making application for the construction of a harbour must associate itself in the locality with the demand. What was the use of establishing these large and important local bodies if, whenever a question of some importance, involving the expenditure of public money, came on for consideration, they were to be excluded from the matter? Let them rely in connection with questions of this kind upon the action taken by the County Councils. He could easily understand that some scheme might be arranged under which County Councils could be assisted pecuniarily to promote the fishing industry. In recent years various industries had accepted and received assistance from the Government. That had been the case in Ireland especially. He quite agreed, however, with his right hon. Friend in the position which he had taken up. He repeated that the County Council or the Fishery Board of a district ought to be associated with any proposal that came before the Board of Trade for consideration.
      MR. J. W. LOGANsaid, that some of his hon. Friends were opposed — rightly he thought—to these grants in aid. But he could understand that the Welsh Members and people expected a certain amount of sympathy from the present Government, for the Government had

      939
      pledged themselves to assist and develop trade. The Government were pledged to promote the agricultural industry, and they had foreshadowed the mode in which they intended to do that—namely, by relieving agricultural property of the rates now borne by it, at the expense of the general ratepayer of the country; and when it was considered that the expenditure of large sums of money had been sanctioned by the House within the last year for the purpose of making railways in Central Africa, he did not wonder that the people of this country should feel that instead of spending money in Central Africa for the purpose of developing a problematical trade there, it would be infinitely better to develop the industries round our own coasts. Though he was opposed in principle to these grants in aid, yet, because since he had been in the House he had seen millions of money voted for railways in Africa and other such projects instead of to the development of trade in this country, he should support his hon. Friend if he went to a Division.
      MR. W. ALLANthought that the wording of the Motion was rather misleading from one point of view, and no doubt tended to impress the right hon. Gentleman opposite to the great amount of expense which was involved in it. If the Motion had asked the right hon. Gentleman to give a small Departmental Committee to inquire in what way and to what extent the existing provision of piers could be improved, it would be a reasonable request. He thought that if the word "harbours" were deleted, there would be very good ground for asking the right hon. Gentleman for such a Committee.
      Amendment agreed to.
      Question further amended by inserting, after the second words "coast of," the words "England and."
      Main Question, as amended, put.
      The House divided:—Ayes, 64; Noes, 117.—(Division List, No. 99).

    SALMON FISHERIES (IRELAND) BILL.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Mr. W. E. M. TOMLINSON Mr. W. E. M. TOMLINSON (Preston) moved: "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
    MR. VESEY KNOXobjected to the Bill, on the ground that fishing rights in Ireland were often allowed to interfere with mills.
    And, it being Midnight, the Debate stood adjourned.
    Debate be be resumed on Friday.

    CORONERS (IRELAND) BILL.
    Committee deferred till Thursday.
    MINING EASEMENTS BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Thursday 23rd April.
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT (QUALIFICATION OF VOTERS) BILL.
    Second Reading deferred till Thursday.

    EDINBURGH GENERAL REGISTER HOUSE (EXPENSES).
    Considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    Resolved: That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of any Expenses incurred by the Commissioners of Works under the provision of any Act of the present Session for the Acquisition of Property for the Extension of the General Register House at Edinburgh.—(Mr. Hanbury).
    Resolution to be reported Tomorrow.
    Adjourned at Two minutes after Twelve-o'clock.