Sitting of 6 May 1895

Preamble
The House met at five minutes after three o'clock.
PRIVATE BUSINESS.

  THE LONDON WATER BILLS.
  On the Motion by Dr. FARQUHARSON for the postponement till June 13 of the Chelsea Water (Transfer) Bill, which, with five other Bills promoted by the London County Council for the purchase of the London Water Companies, was down for Second Reading.
  *MR. E. BOULFOISsaid, the repeated adjournments of these Bills by the London County Council were extremely inconvenient, and displayed an amount of uncertainty on the part of the County Council in regard to the great question of the London water supply. It was becoming clearer and clearer every day that it was not the intention of the County Council to proceed with these six Bills during the present Session. He was not revealing any secrets when he said that they had been told on the Parliamentary Committee of the London County Council, by the agent who had been entrusted with the carrying of these Bills, that it was extremely doubtful whether it would be possible to deal with them this Session. It would seem, indeed, as if it were the distinct purpose of the County Council to tinker with the great water question of London. He hardly believed the House of Commons would consent to that course. It would be detrimental not only to the interests of the consumers but to the interests of the ratepayers. Very large sums of money must also be wasted by those adjournments. The longer the Motion was delayed the less probability was there of its being brought to an issue, because, as the House was aware, no private Bill could go to the House of
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  Lords after a certain date, and the repeated adjournments were driving them perilously near to that date. This mode of harassing not only the Water Companies and the consumers, but also the Local Authorities and corporations interested in the question, was unworthy of the London County Council, and he therefore trusted the House would hear some specific declaration of policy on the part of the County Council in regard to the Bills before they consented to the long adjournment which had been suggested.
  MR. JAMES STUARTsaid, the Bills had been adjourned once by a Vote of the House, and another adjournment took place until last Friday. On last Friday he regretted that personal circumstances—which he communicated to the hon. Member for Marylebone—prevented his being in attendance at the House; and the hon. Member and his Friends, who were opposed to the policy he advocated, was kind enough to undertake to let the House know that any delay which took place from Friday until to-day was due to those personal circumstances alone, and not to any action on the part of the London County Council. With regard to the adjournment he now sought to support, he would mention that, when these Water Bills were adjourned for the first time, he then moved that their Second Reading should be postponed until May 3rd, and that they should then be further adjourned if the two similar Water Bills now referred to a Select Committee were still under consideration. It was in fulfilment of that undertaking, given by him in the ease of the Lambeth and the Southwark and Vauxhall Water Bills, that this Motion for a further postponement was now made, those two Bills not having yet passed through Committee. There was no change of policy and no wavering or uncertainty in the action taken in the matter. Before the Second Reading of the Lambeth Bill he distinctly stated that it was not the intention of the London County Council, nor indeed was it possible, to take the whole of these Bills together through a Committee of this House.
  *MR. F. G. BANBURY,: I cannot find it in The Parliamentary Debates.
  MR. STUARTsaid it was in the earlier volume to that which the hon. Member had before him. It was in the number for the 22nd February, 1895. In the discussion on the Second Reading of the Lambeth Water Hill, he said (page 1377):—
  "If this Bill passed its Second Reading they should go on with the Southwark and Vanxhall Water Bill, because these two Bills stood in very much the same category."
  He then proceeded to give reasons why these two Companies should lie taken together, and then he said:—
  "If the House granted leave to the County Council to purchase these Companies, they would be workable and would not bring them into competition with any other Companies. These were some of the reasons why these two Companies should form a separate group. The different Water Companies differed in regard to their powers, charges, and supply, in relation to the counties in which they were situated, and to the County of London, and in regard to the water consumer. There was no common body called the Water Companies of London; they were separate and competing bodies, and 1liey bad always been regarded as such. It was essential therefore, that they should proceed with the consideration of the different Bills in detachments. They had introduced the whole of the eight Bills because they wished to solve the whole Water Question, and they hoped to be able to proceed with them at a later period of the Session. They hoped also that in some cases they might come to an agreement, and they were not prepared to carry all these Bills before the Committee for consideration at once."
  That was the statement he made on the Second Reading of the other Bill. In the course of the Debate before the Second Reading was granted, there was a question raised, as to whether they were prepared to strike out an Arbitration Clause, giving certain directions to the Arbitrator; and he then stated that he could not withdraw the clause, but was perfectly prepared to give locus standi to all the Companies in the first Bill, on the understanding that the Second Reading of the other Bills should be deferred. Then there was a certain Instruction brought forward in the House on the same day, with a view of instructing the Committee not to proceed with the two other Bills which had passed the Second Reading, until the others were before it. That Instruction was negatived by the House on his Motion, and because of the grounds he then gave. At a later stage he moved
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  that the Bills should be deferred until the 3rd May. The reason he gave was the same as he had given before, namely, that they were not prepared to bring the whole matter as one question before the Committee, inasmuch as the circumstances of the different Water Companies differed so very considerably. But he also stated at that time that if the parties concerned were prepared to accept the Bills which the County Council had brought in, then the County Council were prepared to proceed with all possible speed to make the whole of these eight Bills law. The question was then put to him whether the Council were to use these Bills as a means of competing against the other companies; and he showed not only was that not their intention, but that it was not in their power, inasmuch as the Parliamentary area of the two Bills now before the Committee did not encroach—except in the case of an inconsiderable portion of the Kent Company's supply—on the area served by any other Company. The statement having been, made that it was not the intention of the London County Council to proceed with the other Bills, he stated in reply that it was the intention and the desire of the Council to proceed with the others; that they should proceed with them this Session, if possible, and, if not, then in another Session; and that it was for the purpose of convenience in the matter that the Council had taken the steps they had. He further pointed out that he himself had moved a Resolution to confer a locus standi upon all Water Companies, County Councils, and other local bodies, so that they might appear upon the Lambeth Bill, even if they were not in any sense interested in that particular Bill; so that if anything were raised on it involving a general principle, applicable to other Bills, they might be able to defend their interests. He conceived that course of proceeding commended itself to the House, and in consequence the Second Heading was passed under the circumstances he had indicated; the Instructions were negatived, the locus standi Resolutions were passed, and the other six Bills now before the House were deferred until the 3rd May—the distinct statement being made I on his part that, when the 3rd May came if the other two Bills were not through

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  Committee, he would then move that the six Bills be again deferred until a later period. That was the exact position of the case, and in what he had said he had endeavoured to make clear what was the position taken up in the matter on behalf of the London County Council. It was in these circumstances that it was desired to defer the consideration of the other six Water Bills until the Select Committee had had a reasonable opportunity of discussing and agreeing as to what its settlement was to be in the case of the two Bills now before it. It had been hoped that it would have been possible for the Bills to have been set down for the 3rd May, but a great many Members desired that the new County Council should pronounce an opinion before the two Bills went before the Committee. He assured the House at the time on the Second Beading that it was unnecessary to wait for any opinion of the new County Council after the strong opinion given by the old, and he was glad to see that j when this question was brought before the present County Council they, by a majority of more than two to one, voted in favour of the policy he was now asking the House to adopt.
  *MR. F. G. BANBURYobserved, that the hon. Gentleman had told them what took place on the Lambeth Bill on the 22nd February, but he, had not told them what took place on the 28th February, when the Bill now under discussion, the Chelsea Water Bill, was brought on for Second Beading. The hon. Gentleman on the 28th February told them—
  "he would not press the understanding if hon. Gentlemen felt it did not exist, lint the 3rd of May was the earliest possible date upon which the Second Reading of these Bills could be taken."
  There was nothing further.
  MR. STUART: If the hon. Gentleman will look at page 1447 of The Parliamentary debates, he will see that when I first moved the Adjournment of the Bills, I said what I have indicated.
  *MR. BANBURY: That was on the 22nd February, but on the 28th, when the Chelsea Water Bill came up nothing further was then said.
  MR. STUARTsaid, the hon. Gentleman had not followed what occurred. There was a Second Reading Debate on
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  the 22nd February, and then on the 25th, a subsequent date, what he did was merely to carry out the undertaking he had given to the House, which he accordingly did by moving that the Second Reading of the Chelsea Water Bill be postponed until May 3, then to be further adjourned if the two similar Bills now before a Select Committee were still under consideration.
  *MR. BANBURYsaid, what he was referring to, took place on the 28th February, in the Debate on that day, he himself said he understood it was the distinct intention of the London County Council to proceed with the remaining six Bills, and also that he understood the Motion of the hon. Member for Shoreditch had practically told the House that they would not use the two Bills that had already gone to the Committee in order to exercise any pressure on the remaining six Companies. On that occasion he said he was satisfied, and there was no vote taken because he understood the hon. Member for Shore-ditch had come under a pledge to the House which he would be bound to fulfil. It seemed to him that these Bills ought to be referred to one Committee. As a London Member he had no objection to the County Council buying the Water Companies, but if these Water Companies were to be bought let them be bought, and do not let the question be postponed till nobody knew whether they were to be bought or not. The interests of the shareholders and of Londoners were suffering from the extraordinary method of procedure adopted, and lie hoped that either the eight Bills would be taken before the Committee, or that the whole thing would be dropped.
  Order postponed till June 13th.

  THE BOARD OF TRADE AND PRIVATE BILLS.
  MR. CYRIL DODD MR. CYRIL DODD (Essex, Maldon) moved an Amendment to Standing Order 157 relating to railway and other private Bills. The Amendment was to insert words in the Standing Order the effect of which would be to instruct a, Committee, in reporting on a railway or other private Bill, to state "whether any communication had been received from the Board of Trade in regard to the

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  Bill or the objects thereof, of which, in the opinion of the Committee, it is desirable that the House should be informed." According to the existing practice, when the Board of Trade made any suggestion to a Committee with regard to a private Bill, the Committee was not at liberty to let the House know afterwards what the suggestion was, or what, if any, action was taken upon it; and the Amendment was to enable the Committee to do so. The Amendment was important, because there had grown up a practice of continually debating in this House, particularly on railway Bills, matters in regard to those Bills. The practice had grown, and whilst it was most important that the House should never part with its power of discussing openly these railway Bills either on second or third reading, yet he thought that was a power which might be over-used, and he was inclined to think the power had been somewhat over-used in recent times. The Amendment was designed to meet the difficulty, under existing practice, of debating the matter with full knowledge of the facts. It was not a revolutionary Amendment, but a small improvement in regard to Committee business. It should be left to the Committee to inform the House, if they thought fit—first, whether any communication was made by the Board of Trade in regard to a private Bill; and secondly, what was done with it, and in this way the House should be able to deal with a private Bill with full knowledge of the facts.
  MR. J. H. DALZIELseconded the Amendment.
  SIR RICHARD WEBSTERsaid, that if the Government were not going to support the Amendment he hoped the House would reject it, because it was an invitation to the Board of Trade to make some casual suggestion to the Committee, and it might very much embarrass the Committee.
  MR. J. CALDWELLon a point of order, said that if the Order was to be opposed, lie apprehended there could be no discussion to-day, and the matter must, under the Standing Orders, stand over.
  Debate adjourned.

  CENTRAL IRELAND RAILWAY BILL.
  DR. FARQUHARSON DR. FARQUHARSON (Aberdeenshire, W.) moved:—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Central Ireland Railway Bill that they may provide, if they think fit, notwithstanding Standing Order 163 of this House, that the undertaking of the Kilkenny Junction Railway Company may lie vested in the Waterford and Central Ireland Railway Company."
  Motion agreed to.

  NEW WRIT.
  For the Borough of Newington (Walworth Division) v. Mr. William Saunders, deceased.—(Mr. Thomas Ellis.)
  PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
  The following Bills were presented and read 1°.
  PIER AND HARBOUR PROVISIONAL ORDERS (NO. 2).
  Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade, under the General Pier and Harbour Act, 1861, relating to Banff, Bognor, Dunoon, Swanage, and Whitehills.— [Bill 226.]
  INCLOSURE (CASTOR AND AILSWORTH) PROVISIONAL ORDER.
  Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Board of Agriculture relating to the inclosure of certain lands in the parishes of Castor and Ailsworth, in the County of Northampton.— [Bill 227.]
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (NO. 4).
  Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board relating to Cardiff, Clitheroe, Luton, and Portsmouth.— [Bill 228.]
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (HOUSING OF WORKING CLASSES).
  Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders of the Local Government Board, under the Housing of the Working Classes Act, 1890, relating to Birmingham, Limehouse District (London), and Southampton.—[Bill 229.]
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (GAS).
  Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Local Government Hoard, under the Gas and Waterworks Facilities Act, 1870, and the Public Health Act, 1875, relating to St. Ives, Cornwall.—[Bill 230.]

  CHARITABLE ENDOWMENTS.
  Paper laid upon the Table by the Clerk of the House:—
  Charitable Endowments (West Riding of the County of York),—Return relative thereto [ordered 10th August, 1894; Mr. Francis Stevenson"].

  TRUSTS ADMINISTRATION.
  Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and Appendix, brought up, and read;
  Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.—[No. 248.]

QUESTIONS.

  PARISH COUNCILS AND ALLOTMENTS.
  MR. CYRIL DODD: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, whether parish councils can hire land compulsorily for allotments, under the Local Government Act, 1894, for the use of I he village baker, postmaster, carrier, or oilier tradesmen, or whether that power can only be used for the benefit of labourers or persons employed in manual labour in subordinate positions; and, whether the question has had the consideration of the Law Officers of the Crown; and, if so, what has been their opinion?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE,): I have thought it desirable to take the opinion of the Law Officers on this question, and a case is now being prepared for submission to them.

  REPAIR OF HIGHWAYS.
  MR. HEY WOOD JOHNSTONE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, if at the date of the transfer to a district council of the powers, duties, and liabilities of a highway authority, particular highways, or parts of highways, within the area of the highway authority are out of repair, and the district council determine that the highways, within that
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  area shall be placed in proper repair before the expenses of repairing the same become a charge upon the district, and accordingly proceed under Section 82 of The Local Government Act, 1894, to put them in repair, who is responsible for maintaining and keeping in repair other highways within the area which are in proper repair at the date of the transfer, between such date and the date when under such resolution of the district council the highway expenses of the area become a charge upon the district?
  MR. SHAW LEFEVRE: I have no authority to decide questions of this kind, but I apprehend that under the circumstances stated in the question it would devolve on the Rural District Council to maintain and repair the highways referred to.

  DISCHARGE OF FEVER PATIENTS.
  MR. G. C. T. BARTLEY: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board, whether his attention has been drawn to a Report, dated 8th April last, from the Medical Officer of Health for Islington concerning the premature discharge of fever patients from the Metropolitan Asylums Board's hospitals, especially in the cases of residents of 32, Essex Road, and 2l, Cromwell Road; and, whether he will allay public anxiety on the subject by appointing a Committee to inquire into the question.
  MR. SHAW LEFEVRK: I have communicated with the Metropolitan Asylums Manager with respect to the Report mentioned in the question, and I am informed that they have referred to their General Purposes Committee, for consideration and report, not only this particular Report, but also the whole question raised in the Annual Report for 1894 of the Medical Superintendent of the North Eastern Hospital as to the outbreak of illness in households after the return from hospital of recovered patients. Allegations have been made as to similar outbreaks where patients have been discharged from the hospitals of other bodies, and the subject has recently received the attention of the Medical Department of the Local Government Hoard, who hope shortly to issue a Report with respect to it.

  RETIRED POLICE OFFICERS AND COUNTY COUNCILS.
  MR. BRYNMOR JONES: On behalf of the hon. Member for the Eifion Division of Carnarvonshire (Mr. BKYN ROBERTS), I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether a retired officer of the police force drawing a pension is eligible as member of a county council?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. H. H. ASQUITH,): The answer is in the affirmative.

  ACCIDENTS IN COAL MINES.
  SIR JAMES FERGUSSON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, whether he can state the total number of persons injured in accidents in coal mines in the year 1894, which are reported to the Home Office under the 30th Section of the Mines Regulation Act, the statistics furnished to Parliament only giving the number of deaths caused thereby?
  MR. ASQUITH: The total number of persons injured by accidents in coal mines during the year 1894, as reported under Section 35 of the Coal Mines Regulation Act, 1887, was 4,061. In future this information will be published in the summary of statistics of mines and minerals.

  QUARATINE IN SOUTH AMERICA.
  SIR JAMES FERGUSSON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, whether Her Majesty's Government has approached the South American Governments with a view to their modifying their quarantine regulations, in accordance with the Resolutions of the Dresden Sanitary Conference; whether any of those Governments are disposed to do so; and, whether the Brazilian Government have taken steps to provide additional quarantine stations, so as to obviate the necessity of ships being sent many hundred miles from their port of destination in order to perform quarantine?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir EDWARD GREY,): The South American Republics have been approached in the sense indicated; but none of them have
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  as yet expressed themselves willing to adopt the principles of the Dresden Sanitary Convention. Mr. Phipps, Her Majesty's Minister at Rio de Janeiro, was specially instructed, on proceeding to his post, to make earnest efforts for improvement in the quarantine arrangements in Brazil, and a Conference is now sitting at Rio to consider the question. It is understood that the Brazilian Government have promised to provide three fresh quarantine stations, besides some other reforms in their Regulations.

  PAY OF ROYAL PARK KEEPERS.
  MR. E. BOULNOIS: I beg to ask the First Commissioner of Works, whether he will consider the advisability of placing the keepers of the Regent's Park on an equality with the keepers of the other Royal Parks in the Metropolis as far as regards pay?
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER OF WORKS (Mr. HERBERT GLADSTONE,): This question has been only recently under my consideration, and I was unable to see my way to disturbing the arrangement, which was made so lately as 1888, and under which an extra 2s. a week was granted to park keepers in the central parks, on account of the higher price they had to pay for house rent. There is, I think, no doubt that the park keepers in Regent's Park can lodge themselves more cheaply than men employed in St. James's Park or Kensington Gardens.

  TELEGRAPHIC COMMUN1CATION.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether his Department has refused the request of the people of the Channel Islands for a cable connecting Sark with Guernsey, some seven miles distant, unless they pay for it themselves; whether he is aware that six Sark fishermen were on the 25th of March last wrecked on a rock near Herm, their wives and friends believing them to have been drowned, and being unable, for want of electrical communication with Guernsey, to telegraph for a steamer to be sent in search of them; and that the men were kept for two days and nights on the rock, until a steamer happened to touch at Sark, when they were at once

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  found and rescued: and, whether he will link Sark by cable with the other Channel Islands, and so with the rest of the United Kingdom?
  THE POSTMASTER GENERAL (Mr. ARNOLD MORLEY,): About four years ago a request was made that a telegraph cable should be laid to the Island of Sark; but as the estimate of revenue fell far short of the estimate of expenditure, the Treasury did not see their way to sanction the extension.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: What would be the cost of the cable?
  MR. ARNOLD MORLKY: I cannot say, as I have, not the figure relating to the matter with me.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Postmaster General whether the inhabitants of Gurnard, a populous village two miles west of Cowes, have expressed a desire for telegraphic or at least telephonic communication with the latter place, which request the Postal authorities will only grant on condition of those concerned giving a guarantee of £27 a year against loss; whether he is aware that Gurnard is full of visitors in summer, who have to forward their telegrams to Cowes; whether I he cost of maintaining a telephone between the two places would be much less than that of maintaining a telegraph with a transmitting staff; and whether he will accordingly direct that tin1 guarantee required for a telephonic service shall be correspondingly reduced, and that a telephone shall be forthwith provided?
  MR. ARNOLD MORLEY: The hon. Member is mistaken in supposing that the cost of a telephone between Gurnard and Cowes would be less than that of a telegraph. On the contrary, as a double wire would be required, the cost of construction would be greater, while the cost of office working would remain the same. It is not in my power to afford the service without a guarantee.

  BRITISH INDIA.
  SIR WILLIAM WEDDERBURN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India what is the established strength of the British Army in India; by what statute or ordinance is it regulated; why was there excess over
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  established strength of the British Army in India in the financial year 1891–5; and, whether such excess is legal?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. HENKY FOWLER,): The established strength of the British Army in India is 73,168 officers and men. It is not regulated by any statute or ordinance. There was a slight excess during part of the year l894–5 owing to the drafts sent out to meet the loss by death, invaliding and other causes, between the end of one trooping season and the beginning of the next. The excess is legal.
  SIR WILLIAM WEDDERBURN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India, under what statute is the application of the revenues of India to the maintenance of a British Army in India provided for; whether there is any pro-vision for spending the revenues of India upon any excess over the established strength of the British Army; and whether the application of Rx. 35,000 to meet, this excess, as shown in paragraph 27 of the Financial Statement of the Government of India for 1895–6, is legal?
  MR. HENRY FOWLER: The application of the revenues of India to the maintenance of a British Army in India is not governed by statute other than the general statutory provision which places the expenditure of Indian revenues for Indian purposes under the control of the Secretary of State for India in Council. The payment of the charge for the slight excess over the established strength of the Army during a part of 1894–5 was quite legal.
  SIR WILLIAM WEDDERBURN: I beg to ask the Secretary of Stale for India whether the red line shown on the sketch map of the north-west frontier of the Punjab, at page 91of Part IV. of the Statement of the Progress and Condition of India for the year 1859–60, represents the north-west frontier of British India from the Lehree Boundary Pillar on the south to Hazara and the Koonhar River on the north in 1860?
  MR. HENRY FOWLER: I have on doubt that the sketch map of 1860 to which the hon. Member refers was drawn with due care at that date, and upon the information then available; but I am not in a position to answer for its correctness.

  THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA.
  SIR WILLIAM WEDDERBURN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for India—(1) how much has been spent up to the present time on Government buildings and offices at Simla; (2) how much additional expense is thrown upon the revenues of India by the annual removal of the seat of Government from Calcutta to Simla, and by the cost of communications and the transport of supplies to arid from Simla, a distance of nearly 1,200 miles; and (3) under what heads is the cost of this removal of the seat of Government, direct and indirect, shown in the accounts of the Government of India?
  MR. HENRY FOWLER: (1)The expenditure on the Government buildings and offices at Simla has been about Rx. 790,000. (2) The extra annual cost incurred by the transfer of the Government to Simla and back was shown as Rx. 72,415 in 1883–4, in Parliamentary Paper 17 (Sess. 2) of 1886. But in 1889 fresh rules were made, by which the allowances were reduced by Rx. 12,600; so that the gross cost is now about Rx. 60,000. But, as explained in that Paper, there are receipts to the extent of about Rx. 20,000, which may be set against this. No "supplies" are transported at the public expense, in consequence of the move to Simla during the summer. (3) The allowances given to the several Departments on account of the move are, in the accounts, included in the pay, &c., of those Departments, and are not shown separately. They were given in the foregoing Return, fur five years under each Department.
  *MR. C. W. CAYZER,asked whether it was not necessary, on grounds of health, for European officials to move to Simla in the hot season?
  MR. HENRY FOWLERsaid that that had been the opinion of successive Viceroys.

  BELGIAN CUSTOMS DUTIES.
  COLONEL HOWARD VINCENT: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he has received any communication from the Foreign Office as to the contemplated increase of some of the duties levied by Belgium on sundry articles of British
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  manufacture; and, what action is being taken in the matter?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. J. BRYCE,): A memorandum furnished by Her Majesty's Minister at Brussels respecting the proposed changes in Customs and other duties in Belgium has been received by the Board of Trade, and will be found on page 428 of the April number of the Board of Trade Journal. A comparative statement of the proposed changes, which is to be published in the following number of the Journal, will show that there are many reductions, as well as increases, in the Duties, as well as an abolition of the light dues. No action is being taken in the matter.
  COLONEL HOWARD VINCENT: Will the right hon. Member take action in those cases in which there is an increase; of British manufactures?
  MR. BRYCE: It is not for the Board of Trade to take action in such matters, but for the Foreign Office.
  COLONEL HOWARD VINCENT: Will the President of the Board of Trade undertake to induce the Foreign Office to move in the matter?
  MR. BRYCE: I could not undertake to do that without ascertaining first whether there would be any likelihood of such action being attended with success.

  RAILWAYS IN TROPICAL AFRICA.
  SIR GEORGE BADEN-POWELL: I beg to ask the Lender Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the urgency of the problem of opening up British areas in tropical Africa to administration and commerce, the Government will cause to be prepared and presented to this House a comparative statement giving the financial arrangements, the projected total mileage, the progress in construction, and other leading facts in the making and working of the several railways in tropical Africa which have been commenced under the Governments of France, Germany, Portugal, and the Congo Free State?
  SIR E. GREY: We have not sufficient information to prepare such a return; it would take some time to obtain it, and even then it is doubtful whether the return could be made complete.

  PROPOSED CABLE BETWEEN CANADA AND AUSTRALASIA.
  SIR GEORGE BADEN-POWELL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, whether Her Majesty's Government have received any request from or through the Government of Canada to call a conference of the Colonies interested, with a view to arranging the details of the laying and maintaining a cable, across the Pacific Ocean between Canada and Australasia; and whether the Government have come to any decision in the matter?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON,): Her Majesty's Government have received no such request.

  LOCH LONG.
  MR. C. W. CAYZER: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade if he is aware that the Greenock Harbour Trustees are now depositing in Loch Long the dredgings of their harbour; and whether he will take the necessary steps to protect the public by stopping these deposits, as has already been done in the case of similar deposits by the Clyde Trustees?
  MR. BRYCE: I have not received, within the last two years, any complaint with respect to the deposit by the Greenock Harbour Trustees of dredgings in. Loch Long. It is possible that the hon. Member may refer to the deposit by the Clyde Lighthouse Trustees in Loch Long or other contiguous Lochs of materials dredged from the Clyde opposite Port Glasgow and Greenock; if no, I will refer to the reply I gave to my hon. Friend, the Member for Dunbartonshire, on the 9th August last, when I pointed out that there is at present a statutory authority enabling the Lighthouse Trustees to make this deposit. I am, of course, unable to interfere with this; but the statutory authority will expire on the 6th of August next.

  ABERGAVENNY JOINT LUNATIC ASYLUM.
  MR. FRANK EDWARDS: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department—(1) whether under the award made on the proposal of the County of Monmouth to
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  terminate the existing agreement between the Counties of Monmouth, Radnor, and Brecon as to the Abergavenny Joint Lunatic Asylum, the County of Radnor has been allotted by way of compensation £250 less than the amount actually contributed by it to the cost of the asylum; (2) whether he is aware that the value of the property has increased very considerably since the date of the agreement; and (3) whether, in view of his letter of the 7th of May, 1894, on the subject, he will withhold his consent to the proposed dissolution of the agreement, having regard to the dissatisfaction with the terms of the award felt in the County of Radnor?
  MR. C. M. WARMTNGTONasked, whether the award mentioned was not made after the arbitrator had heard evidence, adduced on behalf of the counties concerned, and after legal argument by learned counsel in favour of the County of Radnor and the other two counties interested, and whether the assent of the Home Secretary was not given on the 10th of April, and whether the award is not now final.
  MR. ASQUITH: The answer to the supplementary question is in the affirmative. In my letter of 7th May, 1894, I undertook to postpone giving my consent to the dissolution of the union of the Counties of Monmouth, Brecon, and Radnor, until the questions at issue between the, three counties had been settled by arbitration. An arbitrator was appointed by the Local Government Board, and an arbitration has taken place. The points referred to in the first and second paragraphs of the question were matters for the consideration of the arbitrator. I understand that the County of Radnor is disappointed with the result, but I have no power to review the arbitrator's award. I have already—nearly a month ago—given my consent to the dissolution, of the union of the three counties.

  BILLETING YEOMANRY.
  MR. T. W. LEGH: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether the provisions of the Army Discipline and Regulations Act, 1879, relating to the billeting of men and horses of the Regular Cavalry upon innkeepers, &c., are also applicable

  527
  in the case of the Yeomanry; and whether similar penalties are incurred by innkeepers in the event of non-compliance with the Act?
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN,): The Act referred to in the question is obsolete; but the provisions of the Army Act for the billeting of the men and horses of the Regular Cavalry apply equally to the Yeomanry, and the penalties are the same.

  BUEBONIC PLAGUE.
  MR. HENNIKER HEATON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, if he has received any telegrams from the Governor of Hong Kong regarding a fresh outbreak of the Buebonic Plague, which caused such disastrous results there last year; and are the telegrams of a reassuring character?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The telegrams as they are received have been and are communicated to the newspapers. A telegram of the 29th ultimo stated that three sporadic cases of the plague had occurred within the Colony. A telegram of the 4th instant stated that there were no more cases.

  SANITARY ARRANGEMENTS AT ALDERSHOT.
  MR. R. W. HANBURY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, under War Office Instructions, the Professor of Military Hygiene at Netley (Brigade Surgeon Notter) made a sanitary inspection of the water supply and other matters at Aldershot in March last; and, whether this Officer's report thereon has been received and will be published?
  *MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The water supply to the new barracks at Aldershot has been recently investigated and the water has been analysed by the Professor of Military Hygiene at Netley. The steps to be taken on that report are now under consideration. It is not usual to publish such a report.
  MR. HANBURY: Will the report deal with other matters besides the water supply?
  *MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I cannot say at present.

  NAVAL COAL CONTRACTS.
  MR. J. HAVELOCK WILSON: I beg to ask the Civil Lord of the Admiralty whether he can state the names of the shipowners who have contracts to carry coal for Her Majesty's Navy; and whether any steps have been taken to enforce the Fair Contract Resolution of 13th February 1891, upon all shipowners contracting to carry coals for the Admiralty?
  The HON. MEMBER further asked whether the Civil Lord was aware that the shipping companies engaged in carrying troops are evading the Fair Contract Resolution of 13th February 1891, and are paying the sailors and firemen 10s. per month below the recognised rate of wages for seamen; whether he is aware that the steamship Jumna is about to engage a crew for another voyage; and whether it is his intention to insist that the crew shall be paid the recognised trade union rate of wages?
  THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Sir U. KAY-SHUTTLEWORTH,): No contract is made with shipowners to carry coal for the Navy, but the Admiralty agents at Cardiff take up a ship when required. The Jumna, hired transport, which has been engaged in the conveyance of troops since October last, is about to make a voyage to the Cape and back on Army service. The rate of wages which will be paid to the crew are not known. The Merchant Shipping Acts provide for official supervision of the agreement made by the master of every vessel with each man whom he engages for a voyage. Under these Acts special protection is thus given to the interests of the seamen and firemen of the Mercantile Marine; and it is the statutory duty of the Board of Trade to take care that the conditions of their employment are explained to the men. It has not been considered that the Resolution of the House (as to the payment of the current rate of wages) has called for any action in the case of chartering ships.
  MR. J. HAVELOCK WILSON: Arising out of that question, I beg to ask the hon. Gentleman whether the Admiralty intend to insist on the payment of the trade union rate of wages on board colliers employed to carry coal; and also whether the Contract Resolution was not intended to apply to ships as

  529
  well as to workshops, and, if so, whether it is the intention of the Admiralty to enforce it?
  SIR U. KAY-SHUTTLEWORTH: I have, answered the supplementary question in the answer I have already given. I think, if the hon. Gentleman will read the answer as it appears in the papers, he will find all the information he wants.

  CHITRAL.
  MR. MACGREGORhad the following question on the paper:—
  "To ask the Secretary of Stale fur India if he will consider the propriety of recognising the heroic conduct of Dr. Robertson in defending Chitral, and also of Dr. Whitechurch who, while carrying a wounded officer off the field, had to fight his way back to the fort at the point of the bayonet."
  He said; In consequence of representations which had been made to me, and which I respect, I beg to withdraw this question, but at the same time I should like, with the permission of the House, to explain that while—[Cries of "Order.'']
  The hon. Member then resumed his seat.

  RELIEF WORKS IN IRELAND.
  MR. JASPER TULLY: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he can state in how many distressed districts in the counties of Leitrim, Roscommon, and Sligo, it has been decided to start relief works; and whether, as the temporary inspectors appointed by the Local Government Board have generally sent in reports adverse to the starting of relief works in these counties, he can state for what period the services of these gentlemen will be retained?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. JOHN MORLEY,): It is not proposed at present to open relief works in the counties of Leitrim, Roscommon, and Sligo. Works have been opened in the portion of Bawnboy Union bordering on county Leitrim, and some persons from that county have been recommended for employment. The services of the temporary inspectors now employed will probably be required until the month of July. In addition to the Reports of the temporary inspectors on the districts in question, I
  530
  have been furnished with Reports from a permanent inspector, who has had a long acquaintance with this part of Ireland, and the result of his investigations shows that no abnormal distress exists there at present.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLasked, when it was proposed to take the Relief of Distress Bill, and when the House would have information as to the spending of the money?
  MR. J. MORLEYsaid, that £35,000 had already been voted by the House for the relief of distress, and he gave the Committee on that occasion information as to the purposes to which that money would be applied. No doubt, when the Vote came on again, a further indication would be given of the way in which the money would be spent.

  PARISH COUNCILS ACCOUNTS.
  MR. W. F. LAWRENCE: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether the forms of accounts to be kept by Parish Councils, referred to as being in course of preparation by the Circular of the Board of 12th December, are now ready, and when they will be issued; and whether he is aware of the inconvenience caused throughout the country by the delay in sending them out?
  MR. SHAW LEFEVRE: Questions of difficulty have arisen in the preparation of these forms; but I hope that an Order on the subject will be issued at a very early date.

  COUNTY COUNCILS AND TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION.
  MR. HERBERT LEON: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether, in the event of any County Councils ceasing to make use of their powers under the Local Taxation (Customs and Excise) Act of 1890, for the furtherance of technical instruction, the Government will consider the advisability of amending the Law with regard to the distribution of the funds dealt with by that Act?
  MR. SHAW LEFEVRE: No legal obligation has been imposed on County Councils to apply the grants referred to in the question to technical education, though I cannot but think it was the intention of Parliament that they should do so, where practicable. I am glad to

  531
  say that, according to the latest Parliamentary Return on the subject, 54 out of the 62 County Councils were in 1893–4 applying the whole of these sums for purposes of technical and intermediate instruction, whilst the remainder of them were applying part of the amount to these purposes. Moreover, the Town Councils of 56 out of the 64 county boroughs were thus applying the whole of the amount, and seven a part of it. Under these circumstances, I may hope that legislation will not be needed to secure the application of these grants to the purposes of technical instruction.

  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE IN IRELAND.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: I beg to ask the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland whether he will agree to the Return relating to Justices of the Peace in Ireland, which stands on the Paper this day?
  MR. JOHN MORLEY:lf the hon. Gentleman will be good enough to place on the Paper a fresh Notice in the same form and in continuation of the Return relating to this subject, No. 463 of the Session of 1893, no objection will be offered to the preparation of such a Return. I have handed to the hon. Member a draft of the form in which the Notice should be moved.

  HIGHLAND CROFTERS.
  DR. DONALD MACGREGOR: I beg to ask the, Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the £150,000, voted some years ago by Parliament for emigrating Highland Crofters to British Columbia, is now available to assist in migrating them from the congested districts to the land which a Royal Commission has recently scheduled as suitable for this purpose?
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Sir GEORGE TREVELYAN,): I explained to the hon. Member on Thursday last that the £150,000, which the Act of 1892 enabled Parliament to lend to British Columbia, is not available for any other purpose. It is impossible to apply money allotted by Statute to any purpose except that to which the Statute applies it.
  DR. MACGREGOR: Will the right hon. Gentleman consider whether it may
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  not be possible hereafter to devote the money to migration rather than to emigration?
  SIR GEORGE TREVELYAN: The money is entirely dependent on that Act of Parliament, and as that Act has not been put in force, the money must be said to be not available.
  DR. MACGREGOR: Well, some other money equal in amount?

  THE FINANCE ACT, 1894.
  The following question stood on the Paper in the name of Mr. T. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis):—
  "To ask Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will state the revenue obtained during each quarter of the financial year 1894–5 from the following duties respectively, viz.:—Probate and Account Duty; Estate Duty, as existing before the Finance Act, 1894; Legacy Duty; Succession Duty; Estate Duties under the Finance Act, 1894; and also the total value of property returned for and charged with each duty in each of the quarters respectively."
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERnot being in his place,
  MR. GIBSON BOWLESasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether he could answer it. The question had already been twice on the Paper.
  MR. J. MORLEY: I am afraid I cannot answer the question.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: Then I will put it down for to-morrow.

  MEDICAL OFFICER OF AYR PRISON.
  MR. WILLIAM WHITELAW: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether he is aware that the Medical Officer of Ayr Prison was appointed to that post at a salary of £80 in 1892, but on drawing his pay found that it had been reduced, and that, on the representation of the Visiting Committee, the Secretary for Scotland ordered the full salary of £80 to be paid according to the original terms; and can he state what salary the medical officer now enjoys?
  SIR GEORGE TREVELYAN: The Medical Officer of Ayr Prison was appointed to that post on the 15th March 1892, at a salary of £70 per annum, the sum fixed by the Lords Commissioners of the Treasury for the office, and on the 17th March he accepted the appointment "at the reduced salary of £70 per annum." He now receives this sum.

  THE PRISONS COMMITTEE.
  MR. WILLIAM WHITELAW: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether his attention has been called to paragraph 116, page 41 of the Report of the Departmental Committee on Prisons; and if it is his intention to carry out The Prisons (Scotland) Act, 1877, by directing prison inspectors to report direct to the Scotch Office?
  SIR GEORGE TREVELYAN: The inspectors appointed under the Prisons (Scotland) Act, 1877, are, under Section 8 of the Act, like the other officers and servants, the assistants of the Commissioners in the performance of their duties. By Section 54 of that Act the duties of the inspectors appointed under Section 10 of 5 and 6 Will., c. 38, were transferred to the Commissioners or inspectors appointed, subject to any directions to be given by the Secretary for Scotland. I cannot say more at present, until the recommendations of the Report referred to have been considered by the Home Secretary, with whose Department I am in communication.

  BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  MR. R. W. HANBURY: I should like to ask whether the Government intend to take the Naval Works Bill tonight? I believe it can be taken after 12 o'clock.
  MR. J. MORLEY: No, Sir, it will not be taken to-night.
  MR. T. GIBSON BOWLES: Can the right hon. Gentleman say when it will be taken?
  [No answer was given.]
  MR. C. J. DARLING: May I ask the Home Secretary whether he proposes to take the Supreme Court (Officers) Bill after 12 o'clock? It is a Bill that will be seriously opposed.
  MR. ASQUITH: I have said more than once that I will not take tins Bill until it assumes the character of a non-contentious measure.
  *SIR M. HICKS-BEACH: I should like to ask what will be the business taken to-morrow. Whether we are to understand that the Established Church (Wales) Bill will be taken to-morrow arid Thursday also?
  MR. J. MORLEY: We propose to take the Established Church (Wales) Bill to-morrow, but on Thursday the
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  Resolution setting up the Scotch Grand Committee will be the first business. If, as we confidently expect, that is disposed of in time enough, we shall then proceed with the Second Reading of the Crofters Act Amendment Bill and the Scottish Local Government Bill. On Friday, as I think my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House stated, we propose to take the Resolution on the Beer Duties. Of course, we shall resume the Established Church (Wales) Bill next week.
  MR. T. GIBSON BOWLES: I should like to ask whether the discussion on Friday next will be a general discussion or will be confined to the Beer Duties?
  MR. J. MORLEY: I think it is the intention of my right hon. Friend to confine the discussion to the Beer Duties alone.
  SIR F. S. POWELLasked whether he was in order in calling attention to the fact that the return had not been ordered in the terms of the notice upon the paper. The Motion had been made more comprehensive than the notice. Was it in order for an hon. Member to move for a return in terms not identical with those on the Notice Paper?
  *MR. SPEAKER: I understand that there was a small alteration made with the consent of the Minister concerned. I believe it is not unusual for that course to be taken with the consent of the Minister.
  SIR F. S. POWELL: But that alteration was not in the possession of the House.
  MR. WILLIAM REDMOND: Let me explain. My Motion was made in the form suggested by the Chief Secretary; they do not at all extend the Motion. It is really the continuation of a return already granted without opposition.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The course followed is a usual one where there has been consultation with the Minister.

  THE SCOTTISH GRAND COMMITTEE.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I should like to ask the Chief Secretary or the Secretary for Scotland whether the Scotch Committee which is to be set up on Thursday is identical in

  535
  structure and constitution with the Grand Committee which was set up last year?
  SIR GEORGE TREVELYAN: It is exactly identical in construction and constitution with the Committee finally appointed by this House on the 27th of April last year.

  EAST INDIA (CANTONMENT ACTS).
  Address for Copies or Extracts from recent Correspondence between the India Office and the Government of India on the subject of the Cantonment Acts and Regulations.—(Mr. Stansfeld.)
  NEW MEMBER SWORN.
  Edward Peter O'Kelly, esquire, for the County of Wicklow (East Wicklow Division).

  JUSTICES OF THE PEACE (IRELAND).
  Returns ordered—
  "For each county, city, and Borough in Ireland, of the names of the persons holding the Commission of the Peace, and giving the date of appointment of each such Justice, and, so far as can be ascertained, the designation, profession, or occupation of each such person at the time of his appointment to the Commission of the Peace, stating at the foot of the Return for each county, city, and borough, so far as can be ascertained, and with such accuracy as is possible, in the absence of any official record, the aggregate number of such persons that are Protestants, specifying their denominations, the number that are Roman Catholics, and the number that are members of any other religious denomination, and the number of such persons that are of each such designation, profession, or occupation, so far as the same can be ascertained. For the whole of Ireland, of the number of such persons of each religious denomination that are of each such designation, profession, or occupation, so far as the same can be ascertained; and of the number of such persons usually resident in such county, city, or borough (in comtinuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 463, of Session 1893."—(Mr. William Redmond.)

  METROPOLITAN POLICE COURTS.
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GEORGE RUSSELL,)moved for leave to introduce a Bill for transferring the expenses of the Metropolitan Police Courts to the Metropolitan Police Fund, and for making provision with respect to the Courts of the stipendiary magistrate of Chatham and Sheerness. He said the Bill was intended to redress a grievance that had often been complained of. It was not proposed by the Bill to deal with the
  536
  payment of magistrates, which would still be made out of the Consolidated Fund. The maintenance of the courts, the pay of the minor officials, incidental expenses, and all pensions would be borne by the Metropolitan Police Fund, and would involve a charge of £27,000 a year. Against that was to be set the fees and fines paid to the fund, which amounted to £26,000 a year. That was, so far, a bad bargain for the Metropolitan Police Fund. In order to redress this balance, the Treasury undertook to pay all the police attached to the Houses of Parliament, which involved a charge of £7,000 a year. This would make a receipt of £33,000, as against outgoings of £27,600. The Treasury would also write off a sum of £10,000, the debt remaining on account of alterations at Bow Street Police Station. The difference between the receipts and payments was to be used in three ways. It was proposed under the Bill to take power to increase the payment of clerks. It was also proposed to take power to acquire the freehold of leasehold properties as far as practicable. It was further proposed to carry out structural and sanitary improvements where they were needed. The expense of the police at the Chatham and Sheerness Dockyards was now borne lay the Metropolitan Police Fund and recouped by the Admiralty; and the Kent County Council kept up the court, while the Treasury paid the magistrate and the clerk. The Bill provided that the clerk was to be paid out of the Metropolitan Police Fund, and that the net cost on the Police Fund was to be recouped by the Admiralty.
  MR. J. CALDWELLsaid, that what had been complained of from year to year was that in the provincial cities the expenses of the police courts were borne by the local rates, and that notwithstanding that the appointment of the stipendiary magistrates was vested in the Crown. London was treated exceptionally because it received about £40,000 a year out of the Consolidated Fund for its stipendiary magistrates. Again, the cost of the buildings in London was borne by Imperial funds. Notwithstanding these facts complaint had recently been made in the House that the contributions of the Government to local rates in London were inadequate.
  *MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! The hon. Member is only entitled, under the Standing Order, to make a short statement.
  MR. CALDWELLcontinued that this Bill would do away with the exceptional position of London, but it proposed to perpetuate the charge made for London on the Consolidated Fund, and therefore he reserved to himself full liberty to discuss the matter in detail on the Second Reading.
  MR. G. C. T. BARTLEYasked whether the Standing Order did not allow a speech to be made on each side? So far, two speeches had been made on one side. This was a matter which affected the Metropolis, and only a Scotch Member had been allowed to say a word.
  *MR. SPEAKER: The word side does not occur in the Standing Order, and if used could only refer to the sides of the question, and not to the sides of the House.
  MR. T. GIBSON BOWLESwished to raise a point of order. He understood from the statement of the hon. Gentleman who had introduced the Bill that it proposed to remit a sum due to the Treasury on account of the police courts. That would be a sum due to the Crown; and if he rightly understood the rule of the House, it was that any Bill which proposed to tax a subject or to remit anything due to the Crown must originate in Committee of Ways and Means. If that were so, ought not this Bill to be introduced in Committee?
  *MR. SPEAKER: There is nothing out of order.
  Bill presented accordingly, and read the first time; to be read a second time upon Thursday, and to be printed. [Bill 231].

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  ESTABLISHED CHURCH (WALES) BILL.
  On the Order to go into Committee on this Bill,
  THE HOME SECRETARY (Mr. H. H. ASQUITH,): I have it in command from the Queen to signify to
  538
  the House that Her Majesty has been pleased to place at the disposal of Parliament for the Established Church (Wales) Bill Her Majesty's interest in the bishoprics and other ecclesiastical dignities and benefices in Wales and Monmouthshire.
  The following instructions stood on the Notice Paper:—

  1. MR. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWKN.—On Order for Committee on Established Church (Wales) Bill being read, to move, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to divide the Bill into two Bills, the one dealing with the termination of the Establishment of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire, and the other with the provisions in respect of the temporalities thereof, and that the first Bill be reported to the House before the other is proceeded with.

  2. MR. DAVID THOMAS.—As an Amendment to Mr. Griffith-Boscawen's Instruction on Order for Committee on Established Church (Wales) Bill, leave out from "and," in line 5, to "and," in line 6, and insert "with the transfer of the temporalities thereof to Commissioners or other public body, and the other with the allocation and disposition of such property."

  3. VISCOUNT WOLMER.—On Order for Committee on Established Church (Wales) Bill being read, to move, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make such provision in the Bill as may enable the holder of an ecclesiastical office entitled to an existing interest to be transferred to another office in the Church in Wales without forfeiting such existing interest.

  4. MR. VICARY GIBBS.—On Order for Committee on Established Church (Wales) Bill being read, to move, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make provision in the Bill for the application of the property hitherto enjoyed by the Church in Wales and Monmouthshire to purposes directly connected with the religious welfare of the people of Wales and Monmouthshire.

  5. MR. R. G. WEBSTER.—On Order for Committee on Established Church (Wales) Bill being read, to move, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert a Clause to provide for the taking of a quinquennial religious Census in Wales.

  6. MR. JEFFREYS.—On Order for Committee on Established Church (Wales) Bill being read, to move, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make provision for facilitating the redemption on an equitable basis of the tithe rent-charge in Wales and Monmouthshire dealt with by the Bill.

  7. MR. DAVID THOMAS.—On Order for Committee on Established Church (Wales) Bill being read, to move, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make provision for the establishment of a general Committee, chosen by the respective County Councils

  539
  of Wales and Monmouthshire, to which shall be transferred the property of the Church attached to parochial benefices, and for the appropriation by such Committee, after making due compensation for existing-life interests, of the income arising from such property to purposes of general advantage to the people of Wales and Monmouthshire.

  8. MR. STANLEY LEIGHTON.—On Order for Committee on Established Church (Wales) Bill being read, to move, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert provisions with respect to the application of the endowments of all chapels in Wales and Monmouthshire which are exempted from rates as places of public religious worship and are registered according to Act of Parliament.

  9. MR. TOMLINSON.—On Order for Committee on Established Church (Wales) Bill being read, to move, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make, provision in the Bill for the constitution of parish rolls of the persons who after disestablishment elect to be members of the Church in Wales and Monmouthshire.

  10. SIR RICHARD WEBSTER.—On Order for Committee on Established Church (Wales) Bill being read, to move, That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to make provision in the Bill that, in the event of its being shown that the moneys expended by the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty for the purposes of the Church in Wales since the year 1703 are in excess of the moneys received by them from Welsh ecclesiastical property during that period, no property shall be transferred by the Governors of Queen Anne's Bounty to the Welsh Commissioners.

  11. SIR FREDERICK MILNER.—On Order for Committee on Established Church (Wales) Bill being read, to move, That it be an Instruction to the Committee to ascertain, either by a religious census or otherwise, the relative proportions of the adherents of the Church and of the Nonconforming bodies, specifying the numbers adhering to each sect.

  *MR. SPEAKER: The first Instruction and the Amendment thereto are in order, but, before I call upon the hon. Member for the Tunbridge Division to move his Instruction, it will be convenient to the House that I should deal with the others which stand upon the paper. The Instruction which stands in the name of the noble Lord the Member for West Edinburgh is not in order, because it is unnecessary to deal by Instruction with a question which may be made the subject matter of an Amendment in Committee. The same ruling applies to the Instruction standing in the name of the hon. Member for St. Albans, which proposes to make provision for the application of
  540
  the property of the Church to purposes directly connected with the religious welfare of the people of Wales and Monmouthshire. That is an alteration of the destination to which the proceeds should be devoted, which may be proposed as an Amendment to the Bill. Then the Instruction of the hon. Member for East St. Pancras, to provide for the taking of a quinquennial religious census in Wales, is out of order as altogether outside the subject-matter of the Bill. The Instruction in the name of the hon. Member for Basingstoke, that there should be power to make provision for facilitating the redemption on an equitable basis of tithe rent-charge, is in order, as, though the question of tithes is touched on in the Bill, there is some doubt whether the redemption of tithe can be dealt with by Amendment. So I think the Instruction is in order. As regards the Instruction in the name of the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydfil, that is not in order. It proposes that the property of the Church should be transferred to different bodies and diverted to purposes different from those proposed by the Bill, and that can be dealt with by Amendment. The Instruction standing in the name of the hon. Member for Shropshire is out of order, as dealing with a matter which is altogether outside the scope of the Bill. The Bill deals with a perfectly definite and well-defined matter—the Established Church in Wales and Monmouthshire—and it would not merely be extending the object of the Bill, but travelling into another field altogether if an Instruction were allowed authorizing the Committee to deal with places of religious worship which do not belong to the Established Church. The Instruction in the name of the hon. Member for Preston is out of order. It really proposes another form of religious census. The Instruction in the name of the hon. and learned Member for the Isle of Wight is unnecessary; the object it has in view may be secured by an Amendment. The Instruction in the name of the hon. Baronet the Member for Basset-law is out of order, upon the same grounds on which the Instructions of the hon. Members for St. Pancras and Preston are out of order.
  MR. W. E. M. TOMLINSON: Would it be possible for me to

  541
  say a word with reference to——[Ministerial cries of "Order !" and "Chair !"]
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. and learned Member must not argue upon my ruling. I call upon Mr. Griffith-Boscawen.
  *MR. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWENthen moved—
  "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to divide the Bill into two Bills, the one dealing with the termination of the Establishment of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire, and the other with the provisions in respect of the temporalities thereof; and that the first Bill he reported to the House before the other is proceeded with."
  The hon. Member said the object of the Instruction could be very briefly stated. On the question of Disestablishment there was a very clear and simple point between the two sides of the House. Hon. Gentlemen opposite thought Established Churches were wrong, and that the connection of the State with religion was unscriptural and a sin. On the Conservative side of the House they did not take that view. Hon. Members opposite thought next that the existence of an Established Church was contrary to what they were pleased to term "religious equality." For his own part he did not understand the phrase. Even if they gained some theoretical equality by Disestablishing the Church, he submitted that the nation would lose more in practice than the Church would gain in theory. Then, thirdly, hon. Members opposite held that the question of Disestablishment must be pressed forward, because they said the large majority of the Welsh people were in favour of it. On the Conservative side of the House they questioned that. The question had never been put by itself clearly to the Welsh people. But even if it had he utterly denied the right of any section of the House to make a local question of what was really the concern of the whole nation. There being a clear and simple issue between the opposite sides of the House, why did the Government wish to encumber it by introducing the question of Disendowrnent along with that of Disestablishment? As religious men on both sides of the House they could discuss Disestablishment perfectly calmly and clearly, but the Government were introducing a vast amount of heated controversy and most unnecessary
  542
  matter in asking the House not merely to Disestablish but Disendow the Church. For the calm discussion of the question it would be infinitely better to keep out of consideration such vulgar controversial matters as pounds, shillings, and pence. Instead of discussing the matter calmly, what would be the state of affairs? Hon. Members opposite charged the supporters of the Establishment with being merely concerned to defend the loaves and fishes. The defenders of the Church were equally ready to charge hon. Members opposite with robbery and sacrilege, and all sorts of other things. Look at the result in the Welsh National Party. They might be unanimous about Disestablishment, but were they about Disendowment? They had neither yet, but they were already at sixes and sevens as to the share North and South Wales were respectively to receive. He was told that some of the Welsh Members were barely on speaking terms. In the interests of the quietude of the House, and the progress of business it would be better if the questions of Disestablishment and Disendowment were separated, and the House decided on the higher grounds whether there should be Disestablishment or not. It seemed to be an axiom with many Members that Disestablishment and Disendowment must go together, that the two terms were convertible, and that they could not have one without the other. Were the arguments in favour of Disestablishment also arguments for Disendowment? If hon. embers thought Established Churches unseriptural, did they contend that Endowments were unscriptural Why, at the present moment the Nonconformists—and it was a great credit to them—were trying to build up endowments for themselves. Mr. Nye's recent book proved the existence of hundreds of Nonconformist endowments. The Independents of Caerphilly, in South Wales, had an endowment of £16 4s. a year derived from a fully-licensed public house. If Nonconformists built up endowments of that sort, why should not the Church have endowments. If they thought endowments were wrong, all they would have to do when the Local Veto Bill passed was to get a two-thirds majority, and they could secure Prohibition and Disendowment by the same vote. A short time ago he

  543
  asked the Home Secretary for a return of Dissenting endowments in Wales and Monmouthshire. What did the Home Secretary say?
  *MR. SPEAKERsaid the hon. Member was not entitled to discuss the propriety of endowments either of the Church or other denominations. The question before the House was the separation of the Bill into two parts.
  *MR. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWENsaid, he would bow to that ruling. He merely wished to show that the argument on the other side of the House that Disestablishment was a sin did not apply in the case of endowments. Hon. Members opposite said that by Disestablishment they would create religious equality. He admitted that a certain kind of religious equality would be created by Disestablishment. But would it be so by Disendowment? It was proposed to take away from the Church every penny she possessed, but not a single penny from the Nonconformist bodies. This, instead of creating religious equality, would create a new religious inequality of a monstrous kind. It was said that the vast majority of the Welsh people demanded the Disestablishment of the Church. But he doubted whether they demanded the secularisation of the funds of the Church proposed in the Bill. He could have well understood a contention being put forward on behalf of the Welsh Nonconformists that funds which were given to the Welsh Church when it was the only religious body in the country ought to be divided among all the religious denominations that now existed in that part of the United Kingdom, but he could not understand how the supporters of Disendowment could propose that funds that were admittedly given for religious objects should be taken from the Church in order that they might be appropriated to secular purposes. None of the great arguments that applied to Disestablishment applied to Disendowment. He did not believe that those Welshmen who had voted for Disestablishment had any intention of voting at the same time for Disendowment. The precedent of the Disendowment of the Irish Church had been frequently referred to, but the fact was that the Irish Church was one of those lucky bodies which had always had more money than it required. Parliament
  544
  had dealt with the Irish Church surplus on several occasions, and notably in the case of the Maynooth Grant. There was a great distinction between the cases of the Irish Church and the Welsh Church in the amount of their Endowments. When the Irish Church was Disestablished and Disendowed the capitalised value of her revenue was £16,000,000, and the capitalsum left her to begin again on amounted to £8,000,000. The total capitalised value of the Welsh Endowments, however, only amounted to £3,600,000.
  MR. D. A. THOMAS MR. D. A. THOMAS rose to a point of order. Was the hon. Member in order in going into the general question of Disendowment?
  *MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman must confine himself to the merits of the method of procedure proposed by his instruction.
  *MR. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWENsaid that he merely desired to point out that there was a great difference between the cases of the Irish and the Welsh Churches in connection with their Disendowment. After it was Disendowed, the Irish Church started with £4,000,000 more than the Welsh Church now possessed in the way of Endowment. In these circumstances, therefore, it was absurd to contend that because in the case of the Irish Church Disestablishment was coupled with Disendowment that that should be done in the case of the Welsh Church. What had happened in the case of Canada? When the Canadian Church was Disestablished there was a certain amount of Disendowment, but only in the case of certain funds which had always been regarded as the property of the various Protestant sects of that country, while all funds appropriated to particular rectories were left to the Church. In the case of the United States there had been no Disestablishment, because no Established Church had existed in that country; but after the Revolution the Episcopal Church of New York was permitted to retain Endowments which amounted to £400,000 a year. Lord Selborne, a great lawyer, and a greater Churchman, who had just passed away, and whose death at the present, moment was an irreparable loss to the Church, declared in the debate on the second reading of the Irish Church Bill that—

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  ''The questions of Disestablishment and Disendowment are not inseparable, and ought not to be so treated. Whatever other reason can be given for so treating them, it is not a case of necessity."
  He ventured to say, therefore, that there was no necessity for so treating them now, and it was in the belief that it would be convenient to the House that the two things should be kept separate that he begged to move the Instruction that stood upon the paper in his name.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNEin seconding the Motion, said that he did not know whether the Government were prepared to accept the Motion or not. During the period that the present Government had been in office they had hurled a number of vast Bills at the House of Commons, and had then alleged that the Measures were so great that there was no time to consider and discuss them in detail. Hon. Members opposite appeared to think that because Bills dealt with interests of enormous magnitude they should be discussed in much less detail than if they were Measures involving questions of mere parochial importance. This Bill was intended to affect the Established Church as a whole, and therefore it ought to be discussed in the fullest detail. The Measure proposed to effect a complete transfer of an enormous mass of property, it involved a total reconstruction of one of the most ancient institutions of the country, and it dealt with vested interests upon a vast scale. Moreover, it constituted an attack upon the religious convictions of the great mass of our fellow-countrymen, and therefore that House was bound to consider its details with the utmost care. He had heard already a rumour that the Government did not intend that the Measure should be fully discussed, and that what was known as "the gag" was to be applied, subject, of course, to the discretion of the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair. [Cries of "Order."]
  MR. J. CALDWELL MR. J. CALDWELL rose to a point of order. He wished to ask Mr. Speaker whether the noble Lord was in order in referring to rumours that were afloat outside of that House with regard to the business of the House, and to the application of the Closure, and to the way in which the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair might exercise his discretion.
  *MR. SPEAKER: I do not think that the noble Lord has made any reflection upon the Chair. He has merely referred to the great magnitude of the task before the House and suggested the desirability of its being divided into two parts.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNEsaid, that nothing had been further from his thoughts than to make any improper reflection on Mr. Speaker. The hon. Gentleman who interrupted did not seem to be acquainted with contemporary history, or he would have known that on that very day a question was on the Paper asking that the gag should be applied. If the hon. Member who put that question was able to persuade the Government to accede to his request, the Committee would be asked to vote away the Endowments, of which the Church of England in Wales had been in possession for so many years, under the influence of the gag. That, he thought, was an appalling prospect for the House, for every time this particular method of procedure was adopted, the House sank lower down in popular opinion than it was before. The proper course to adopt was to cut the Bill in two, and allow the Committee to discuss Disestablishment and Disendowment separately, without the fear of the gag before their eyes. Another reason for taking that course was the remarkable ignorance which prevailed amongst hon. Members opposite as to what Disestablishment was and what Disendowment was. It was commonly said that private patronage belonged to Establishment. So far from that being the case, the representatives of the Irish Church Government took steps, immediately after the Disestablishment and Disendowment of that Church, to re-establish private patronage under the Voluntary system which followed on the Act of 1869. All Disestablishment did was to take away the so-called privileges of the Church, which, apart from the possession of property, were of the very smallest character. He only knew of two definite privileges which the Church, as distinct from other denominations, possessed. Those were, the existence of the Bishops in the House of Lords, and the right of the clergymen to celebrate marriage without the presence of a Registrar. Disendowment, therefore, differed entirely from Disestablishment. He denied the possession

  547
  of property was the special privilege of the Church. The possession of Church property by the Church was a similar thing to the possession of Nonconformist property by Nonconformist denominations; and by striking at this possession the Disendowment proposals of the Bill struck at the rights of property, to which the Church was as much entitled as any of Her Majesty's subjects. The difference between the two subjects was very wide indeed, and from the point of view of the interests of the House, as well as from the point of view of the interests of the Church and of the country, they ought to be separated. There were a large number of gentlemen who, though very strongly in favour of abolishing what they called the privileges of the Church, were not in favour of taking away her property; and it was passible that other gentlemen might take a precisely converse view. Therefore, it was clear that it would be most unfair to submit the double issue to the House. By cutting the Bill into two they would be able to obtain, on the Third Reading of the Bills, distinct and definite expressions of opinion from the House on the separate subjects of Disestablishment and Disendowment. Whatever way it was looked at, he thought nothing could be clearer than that the two subjects should be considered separately. It was obvious, from the point of view of Parliamentary procedure, that the course suggested in the Motion was the proper course; and if the Government refused to adopt it, it could only mean that they had no expectation of passing the Bill into law, and that one of their principal objects was to curry favour with a particular class of their supporters below the Gangway, who hated the Church to such an extent that there was no limit to the attacks they were prepared to make upon it.
  MR. ASQUITH: I rise at once to remove from the mind of the noble Lord the doubt which he says he entertains as to the attitude of the Government in regard to this Instruction. We cannot assent to this Instruction under any circumstances or under any conditions. I listened with attention and respect to both the speeches of the hon. Members opposite. With respect to most of the speech of the hon. Member who moved this Instruction, it seemed to
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  me that it might have been very properly made on the Second Reading; and as to the speech of the noble Lord who seconded the Instruction, he will, I hope, forgive me for saying that it might have been properly deferred until that Motion—which he is sanguine enough to anticipate, and which, he supposes, will bring to a prompt conclusion the consideration of this Bill—comes actually before the House. But both speeches ignored the fact that the House, by a very decided majority on the Second Heading of the Bill, has affirmed its assent, as well to the Disendowment as to the Disestablishment of the Church in Wales. If the object of this Motion were simply to promote the convenience of discussion, and were not, as I venture to think it is, to secure, if possible, that the House shall pass a Disestablishment Bill without Disendowment, it would have been quite competent for the hon. Member to move an Amendment to the Second Reading in the nature of this Instruction, and to have the whole question threshed out. Now, what are the arguments as to convenience? I am not going to deal with the arguments as to principle, as I consider them to be outside the scope of this discussion. The hon. Member who moved the Instruction tells us that we can discuss the question of Disestablishment calmly and dispassionately; but when we come to the subject of Disendowment, he appears to think that all our baser passions will assert themselves, and he has warned us that he, for his part, will be prepared to accuse us of sacrilege and plunder, and, as he went on to comprehensively say, "various other things." I think the hon. Gentleman does injustice to his own powers of self-restraint. I believe that when we come to discuss the Disendowment Clauses we will be able to do so with the judicious and dispassionate temper that characterises all our proceedings. The only other argument is, that there are persons in favour of Disestablishment who may not be in favour of Disendowment, or, to put it in another way, that arguments which may persuade to Disestablishment are totally distinct from, and have no dependence upon, arguments in favour of Disendowment. I do not take that view. I regard the Establishment of the Church as consistent not only with the possession of special privileges, and

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  disabilities; but also with the title by which she enjoys and uses property which, in my judgment, and in the judgment of the House pronounced upon the Second Reading, is to be regarded as national property. You cannot, in my view, satisfactorily dispose of the question of Disestablishment justly, or discuss it adequately, without taking into view at the same time the fact of the possession by the Church of that property and the alternative proposals for its disposal for other objects. The hon. Gentleman quoted the authority of a great man, whose loss I am certain we, on this side of the Hsuse, deplore as sincerely as hon. Gentlemen opposite, and lament at this particular moment—I mean Lord Selborne, who, at the time of the Irish Church Bill, appears to have expressed the opinion that Disestablishment could be effected without Disendowment. That may be so or not, hut if it be so, then Lord Selborne must have subsequently changed his views. In a pamphlet written by him on the defence of the Church of England, published in 1886, I find
  a passage which I will ven-to read to the House, as it seems to me most pertinent to the subject now under discussion:—
  "Disestablishment without Disendowment," said Lord Selborne, "a renunciation by the State of such powers of control as are involved in Establishment, without total or large secularisation of the Endowments of the Church, is a measure which nobody now proposes, and which, therefore, I need not now consider."
  That is a sufficient answer to the argument of the hon. Member.
  *SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: In ordinary circumstances there might be some reason for the slighting tone towards this proposal, which I think I detected in the speech of the right hon. Gentleman. [Mr. ASQUITH: "No, no."] At any rate, the right hon. Gentleman treated the proposal which is now before the House as if it had no grounds whatever in reason and justice, and was merely a proposal made to stand in the way of the progress of the Bill. But we are not in ordinary circumstances, and I think the Government should have been absolutely grateful to my hon. Friend for the suggestion he has thrown out in the Instruction now before the House. What is the position? We have before us the leading Bill of the Government of the
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  present Session, and we are asked to-day to commence the work of Committee on that Bill. Let any hon. Member look at the aspect of the House. Is it not perfectly clear there never was a greater game of make-believe than that in which we are engaged at the present moment? I think the right hon. Gentleman should have been grateful for a proposal which would have shortened the duration of that game. Every Government that has ever attempted to transact business in the House has always discovered that the only way to make real progress with measures of importance in Committee is to conduct them de die in diem. We are asked to go into Committee on this Bill to-day and to-morrow, hut on Thursday and Friday other business is to be transacted. Does that look like a real desire to carry legislation on this subject? The Programme of the Government, forced upon them by their supporters, is of such a length that it is absolutely impossible for them to carry it altogether into effect, and they are putting forward one Bill at one moment and another at another in the hope that for the time they may pacify the advocates of all these separate measures, and that is the sole object with which we are engaged at the present time. My hon. Friend attempts to facilitate that unpleasant task by suggesting that the two objects of Disestablishment and Disendowment, which are combined in the Bill, should be separated. By adopting this suggestion, the Government would be able to pacify their own supporters and fulfil, perhaps, their own sense; of justice by proceeding with Disestablishment in the first place, and relegating Disendowment to some future occasion. What is the argument of the right hon. Gentleman? He says that the House has accepted, on the Second Reading of this Bill, the principle of both Disestablishment and Disendowment. I admit it, but that is on reason why we should attempt to proceed with both of them at the same time. I entirely demur to the contention of the right hon. Gentleman that these two subjects are necessarily connected in any legislation of this kind. When Disestablishment was passed in Canada, the Church was left in possession of her Endowments and holds them now. In the same way, when the Church was Disestablished in Australia

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  she was left in possession of her Endowments and holds them now. As a matter of fact, in these cases Disestablishment and disendowment have not gone together, and why should they? A few years ago, I will venture to say, there were many Members of the Liberal Party in "Wales, like the late Lord Swansea, then Sir Hussey Vivian, who were distinctly in favour of Disestablishment without Diseudowment. The hon. Member for the Neath Division of Glamorganshire stated in the Debate on the Second Reading of this Bill that certain candidates of the Unionist Party were supporters of the policy of Disestablishment in Wales It is the fact that such of those gentlemen as were sudporters of the policy of Disestablishment declined to be supporters also of Disendowment, and there are individuals in Wales, and I suspect a good many persons in the United Kingdom, who, although in favour of the policy of Disestablishment, yet do shrink from the policy of Disendowment and the injustice and wrong it would cause. I think I detected in the able speech of the Under Secretary for the Home Department on the Second Heading of this Bill some feeling of this sort. He expressed a very strong opinion in favour of the policy of Disestablishment on the grounds of his desire to free the Church from what the Home Secretary called the chains and fetters of Establishment, but he passed very lightly over the question of Disendowment, and expressed his belief that the Church ought to be allowed to retain possession of all the Endowments which had been given to her since she had been theologically and spiritually what she is at the present moment, whilst the hon. Member for Fife took very much the same line. Therefore, Sir, I contend that neither in the past history of this matter in other countries, nor in the wishes, at any rate, of some of those who have supported or are supporting the policy of Disestablishment in Wales has Disendowment been inseparably connected with it. Even from the point of view of policy, it might be argued that it would be well if the Government paused before they insisted upon coupling these two matters in the Bill. Their desire—and I have no doubt it is a sincere desire—is to promote unity
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  and concord in Wales among persons belonging to different religious communities. By their policy of Disestablishment, they think they will remove what is considered to be a badge of social inferiority by the members of the Nonconformist sects in Wales. I will venture to say that whatever objection may be urged by Churchmen in Wales and in England to the policy of Disestablishment, yet that policy is not viewed with the same sense of injustice and personal wrong as the policy of Disendowment. I am strongly opposed to both, and I should not become a supporter of this Bill, or anything else than a persistent opponent of it, even if the right hon. Gentleman accepted the advice I give him; but you have to consider what will be the feeling of the people in Wales after this Bill has become law. You have to think, surely, what will be the feelings of Churchmen as well as Nonconformists. Would it not be well if you can, to try your Disestablishment without Disendowment, and so avoid that rankling sense of injustice and wrong which you will certainly cause in the minds of Churchmen if you Disendow the Church. What are these Endowments which the right hon. Gentleman considers it of such vital importance to take away? Their total net annual value in all the twelve counties of Wales will not be above £150,000 a year. I could understand the views of those who would decline to allow a Disestablished Church to retain possession of a very large property such as she possessed in the Middle Ages, when monasteries and other institutions of the kind held large tracts of land, so that, at one time, under the Tudors, a great part of England appeared to be passing under the dominion of the Church. I could understand the objections of those who might hold that a very wealthy Church of that kind in a State ought to be to some extent under the control of that State as an Established Church. That is the view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who would have made an admirable First Minister of King Henry VIII. That I rather take to be the view of the right hon. Gentleman himself. But can you say that a Church which possesses a net income of £157,000 a year is in a position of that kind? It is the merest

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  pittance with which, if not largely supplemented by voluntary offerings of members, it would be impossible for the Church to do half the work she does. I would venture to contend that neither is it a necessary part of your policy to combine these two separate matters in the Bill, nor is it for the real promotion" of the object with which you have introduced this Measure. I hope that even now the Government may consider this matter in rather a more serious frame of mind than that in which the proposal seems to have been dealt with by the right hon. Gentleman, and that they may give a more favourable reception to the proposal of my hon. Friend.
  MR. STANLEY LEIGHTONhoped this Instruction would receive some support from the other side of the House. He based this expectation of support upon the fact that one of the hon. Members opposite, the hon. Member for Essex, had suggested that, with a view to their proper and adequate discussion, the subjects dealt with by the Bill should be taken and dealt with separately. That was all that was asked by this Amendment. It was exactly for that reason, and for the sake of expediting business, that he appealed to hon. Members opposite to join in the demand that the Bill should be divided. The Bill, as it stood, was, to a certain extent, divided, there being certain compartments which dealt with Establishment and others which dealt with Endowments. That being so, surely it was for the convenience of the House to divide the Bill altogether. The Home Secretary founded his objection to the proposal of his hon. Friend on the old argument of national property; but the whole question was raised of whether the property of the Church was national property or not. The right hon. Gentleman produced a volume and read a considerable extract from it. In answer, he would ask him to refer to Seldon on Tithe, to Professor Freeman on National Property, to the Bishop of Oxford on National Property, and to all the Lord Chancellors, except perhaps the Lord Chancellor who at present filled the Woolsack, who had not, he thought, delivered himself of anything on the subject. He apologised to the noble and learned Lord for saying he "filled"
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  the Woolsack, he meant sat on it. The reason which made him feel most strongly that the Bill ought to be divided was this—that no one had ever been able to tell him what he meant by Establishment. All knew what Endowment was, but no one, not even the Home Secretary, had ever given a definition of what he meant by Establishment. That was the whole point of the discussion. Surely it was for the benefit of discussion, and the advantage of the House, that two such totally different questions should be dealt with separately. One thing at a time. Let them endeavour to get through the Bill as well and fast and efficiently as they could, and in order that they might do that he was perfectly satisfied they ought to carry out the Instruction his hon. Friend had proposed.
  MR. G. C. T. BARTLEYcontended that the two main portions of the Bill ought to be divided if the discussion was to proceed on a broad and proper basis. The Disestablishment of the Church was something within the right and power of Parliament, and they could discuss that as a question by itself, and on its merits, and without the complications which the Home Secretary had introduced, and which might lead to a good deal of heat—namely, Disendowment. Although he did not consider Disendowment so serious for the welfare of the country, still it was a question which might be raised, not on the religious basis but on the moral basis, of whether this Parliament had the right, although it had the power, to disendow—which meant taking from one person and giving to another. The right hon. Gentleman quoted the late Lord Selborne, whose death they all deeply regretted, to show that in his later days he referred to the impossibility of separating Disestablishment from Disendowment. If, however, the whole context were taken a different conclusion would be drawn. At any rate he doubted whether the taking of one sentence from the work in question justified the Home Secretary in so representing Lord Selborne's views. For the purposes of his argument there was a stronger authority in favour of the line proposed in the Instruction, and that was the Liberation Society, which, in their pamphlet on "The Case for Disestablishment,"

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  distinctly laid it down that the two questions of Disestablishment and Disendowment should be altogether separately treated. This Bill really raised the whole question of the Disestablishment of the Church of England; and surely they ought, first of all, to; settle whether they should disestablish or not before they considered the financial question, which was a secondary affair altogether. This was really the beginning of the great question of Disestablishment and Disendowment of the Church of England, and he believed the more this was threshed out, the less likely they should be to adopt it. But that strengthened the argument for not confusing the issues. When they came to consider the financial matters of the Bill, they lost sight of the far more important question, the moral and spiritual aspect of the Disestablishment. He went so far as to doubt whether Parliament had the moral right to take away the Endowments which had belonged to the Church for the last 1200 or 1300 years; but apart from that, he thought in the interests of all concerned it would be far better that the Government gave way and allowed the Bill to be divided into two. He fully agreed that it was probable the Opposition would oppose the Bill whatever happened, but they should be able to put the issue before the country clearly. He believed there were many persons absolutely opposed to Disendowment, which he considered robbery, although they might be in favour of the Disestablishment of the Church. The Government would be well advised to consent to the division of the Bill. The first week in May was nearly over, and they had not yet got into Committee. Yet the Government were apparently still determined to complicate the question of Disestablishment with the question of Disendowment. If the Bill were not divided it would be impossible to get it through Committee in the remaining portion of the Session. By giving way the Government would be serving their own interests.
  COLONEL KENYON-SLANEYregretted the premature refusal of the Home Secretary to consider this instruction favourably. It was a bad arrangement that a Minister in charge of a Bill should make his reply
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  before hearing the arguments on the other side, be they good or be they bad. It was an ill-arrangement that they should be met with a stereotyped and premature refusal. Did the right hon. Gentleman consider that the business arrangements of that House ought to be made solely in the interests of Party? Did he think that those who were opposed to him, but who represented vast masses of the people of this country, had no right to consideration? He asserted that a majority of the people of the kingdom, amounting almost to millions, desired that the question of Disestablishment and Disendowment should be separated, and not merged. There were thousands of people who did not take the same view on each of these two issues, and therefore they ought to be separated. If the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues should persist in refusing to accept this Instruction they would show themselves in this as in all other matters to be out of touch with the feelings of the majority of the people of this country.
  *MR. HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid, that he was not often in favour of dividing Bills, but he thought that those who had brought forward this Motion had a very strong case. Within the four corners of this Bill they were asked to deal with two different questions standing in totally different categories, and commanding very different degrees of support. Among his own acquaintances there were not a few Churchmen and Nonconformists who believed in the desirability of freeing the Church from State control, not in the interests of the State or of other denominations, but in the interest of the Church herself. But while holding that opinion they had a deep-rooted objection to the proposal for Disendowment, regarding it as an invasion of the rights of property. In short there were great numbers of people who, on this Church question, were in favour of freedom, but not of plunder. Considering that this Bill dealt with a limited portion of a single Church, and that the poorest portion, a vast number of people would hesitate a very long time before they consented to strip it of its very slender means. Moreover, if the Bill were divided, one of its parts would not obtain the support of a majority even in that House. The House would undoubtedly

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  pass the Disestablishment Bill, but would act very differently when it came to face the question of Disendowment in its bare, naked form. There was division on the subject of Disendowment even in the ranks of the Welsh Members. The arguments that could be adduced for Disestablishment could not be adduced for Disendowment, and therefore he should vote for the Instruction.
  MR. STUART-WORTLEYsaid, that the supporters of the Home Secretary appeared to find much satisfaction in his argument that an opportunity might have been taken to raise this question by an Amendment on the Second Reading, and that the arguments adduced in support of this Instruction would have been more appropriate at the previous stage of their proceedings on the measure. But the contention that this was a question which could have been disposed of on the Second Reading was contrary to the most elementary Parliamentary experience. To say that when a Bill proposed two distinct objects it was possible to separate them on the Second Reading, and to have an effective decision of the House upon the question of the separation was to run counter to all their experience. On the Motion for Second Reading it was only possible to dispose of one Amendment, and the selection of what Amendment should be proposed was in many cases decided by the accident of priority. But if an argumentative Amendment had been proposed in this case those who might have voted in favour of division would certainly have been told afterwards that by their support of the Amendment they had accorded an expression of opinion in favour of the Bill. He held, therefore, that it was not practicable to raise the question of the division of the Bill upon the Second Reading, and that this was the first opportunity which the House had had for the discussion of the question.
  SIR RICHARD WEBSTERentered an emphatic protest against the way in which the Government had treated the arguments of the Opposition. It was obvious that orders had gone out that no speeches were to be made on the Ministerial side of the House. There could be no fair discussion of any matter under such conditions.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid, that he must correct the hon. and learned Member at once. No such order as he supposed had gone forth.
  SIR RICHARD WEBSTERsaid, that of course if the right hon. Gentleman stated that the silence of hon. Members below the Gangway opposite was not in consequence of an order he accepted that statement at once. The Home Secretary, when making his rather perfunctory speech, appeared to think that he might dismiss this proposal by saying that the subject had not been submitted for consideration on the Second Reading. The right hon. Gentleman was not treating the Opposition with justice. He understood now from the right hon. Gentleman that it was not his suggestion that silence should be maintained below the Gangway. In those circumstances he wanted to know how it was that no Welsh Member had ventured to speak. There was, his hon. Friends had pointed out, a large and growing body of opinion in Wales opposed to Disendowment, and the reason why the Welsh Members desired that these two questions should be kept together was that by that means they hoped to get the support of Members who desired Disestablishment, but who would not vote for Disendowment if it were put before them as a separate issue. If the Welsh Members below the Gangway were in a position to declare that there was a unanimous feeling in Wales in favour of keeping the two questions together let them say so. But they could not do so, because they knew that there was a large section of the Nonconformist body in Wales that did not approve of the proposal for Disendowment. But might he point out how extremely important it was that this Instruction should be adopted? Hon. Members opposite seemed to think that a simple clause, which said that the Church in Wales should be disestablished, would be a complete Bill, and that nothing more would be necessary. He did not hesitate to say that the clauses which were concerned with Disestablishment, and Disestablishment only, with their consequential Amendments must occupy many days to debate, and therefore it was idle to deny that in mixing up the two subjects the difficulties of Debate and of preparing Amendments would be

  559
  enormously increased. The position of the Bishops and Clergy of the Disestablished Church with regard to Convocation had not yet been referred to. The fact that they were no longer to be called to Convocation forced upon the House the necessity of making some other provision. What was that provision? That the Disestablished Church should have power to establish for itself a constitution, to make synods, and to re-establish its organisation. Did hon. Members think that was not a matter which must be made the subject of Amendment? Then, again, what was to be the position of the Clergy with regard to the ecclesiastical law? Then there was another important question, which had occupied the attention of the Welsh and English Members in years gone by, and that was the marriage law. This Bill proposed that there should be a complete cutting adrift of the Disestablished Church from all ecclesiastical law; but, as hon. Members on the other side probably knew, there was an exception in the Bill for the Disestablishment of the Irish Church with respect to the marriage law. The consequence was, that in the folk-wing Session a Bill had to be brought in, in order to regulate the marriage law for the Disestablished Church in Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman had endeavoured to make the House believe that all these were questions which could be solved and dealt with in a Bill which in one sentence said that the Church should be disestablished and that ecclesiastical law should no longer have any bearing on the Church; but all the questions he had mentioned would have to be dealt with when Disestablishment took place. He submitted, with great deference, that it was not just or right to deal with an Instruction of this character without some answer being given upon these important questions. He could of course carry this much further by calling attention to the position of the Clergy of the Church and many other matters; but, forsooth, they were told by the Home Secretary that all these questions were to be dealt with in. one Bill! He submitted that it was by Instruction, and Instruction alone, that these questions could be properly raised under the Standing Order of the House. The reason why Disendowment and Disestablishment were not to be treated in
  560
  the logical and proper way was, that from beginning to end there had been no Welsh case made out. Without almost a single exception, when the Second Reading of the Bill was under discussion, the case made was not a case with regard to the Disestablishment of the Church in Wales, but in regard to Disestablishment as a principle. The consequence was, that the Government dared not fight the case on the lines which were really applicable to the Welsh Church; because they knew that, though they might possibly secure a small majority, due to the Welsh Members, in obedience to the pledge given that the Government should have their support so long as this Bill was carried forward, if they were to adopt the reasonable and proper course, the internal discords and dissensions which the House had heard of would immediately break out into open warfare. Those who had listened to this Debate and those who would read it would come to the conclusion that every argument urged that night was in favour of the Instruction; but, whether independent persons came to the conclusion that the arguments were well founded or not, at least they would say that they were entitled to some answer. Whether the Opposition were right or wrong, whether they were voted clown or not, the reasons and arguments used in support of this Instruction would go to the country absolutely unanswered.
  SIR F. S. POWELLsaid, he was greatly impressed by the answer given to him, some nights ago, by the Home Secretary, with regard to the law concerning marriage under this Bill. He confessed that he was somewhat surprised to find the right hon. Gentleman quite unprepared with a policy on the subject. He thought that clearly proved that Disestablishment in itself was so large a question that it was worthy of, and ought to have, a separate Bill. He ventured to say that the Government, as regarded the Welsh Church, had confused the issue. The question of Disestablishment was quite distinct from that of Disendowment, and when he looked into history, he found they had been dealt with in many countries as wholly separate and distinct. In Canada, what were the facts of the case when the war ceased? The Endowments

  561
  of the Roman Catholic Church were not destroyed, but were confirmed by treaty. They were dealt with wholly separately from Disestablishment. And when he came to the history of this country, he found the same separation between Disestablishment and Disendowment. Long before the Reformation was thought of alien monasteries were secularised, and when he came to a later period, to the time of Henry VIII., he believed that the great change carried out by that king was carried out when he was still a devoted son of the Church. He must make allusion to the great difference of opinion in the minds of many people on the subject of Disendowment. He had asked questions of acquaintances of his, not Members of the Church of England, and he found that many of them were in favour of Disestablishment, while they believed Disendowment to be, if not confiscation and robbery, at any rate; unfair and unjust. They thought that it was not justice, or equity, or even Christianity, that they should be allowed to retain their endowments when members of the Church in Wales were deprived of theirs. The action of Parliament had hitherto been to strengthen the position of Nonconformist endowments, and he did not see how the House could with equal justice weaken or confiscate the endowments of the Church. There were certain questions of discipline which had not yet been discussed. He did not know what the effect of the Bill would be on the Clergy with regard to pluralities and other matters. He was quite sure the action of the Government would prevent their discussion.
  *MR. J. G. TALBOTsaid that, from the attitude of the supporters of the Government, it might be supposed they were approaching the end of a long deliberation instead of this being the first occasion on which, after the lapse of several weeks since the Second Reading, they resumed the further consideration of the Bill. An Instruction, of fundamental importance, had been moved; it could not be called in any sense a dilatory motion, and yet it was met by a policy of silence. The distinction between Disestablishment and Disendowment was natural and was commended by common-sense and justice; and it was also supported by the high authority of the late Lord Selborne,
  562
  whose removal from them they all deplored. The Opposition were being treated with a great lack of courtesy. He asked the Home Secretary whether, in his heart, he believed Disestablishment would have been seriously proposed if it had not been linked with the alluring bait of Disendowment. Again, would bare Disendowment have been tolerated, if it had not been gilded over, as it were, by the specious pretence of Disestablishment? There might be many who would assent to Disestablishment if it were separated from Disendowment. The two things were quite distinct, and the measure which combined them ought to receive fundamental criticism. At any rate they were entitled to know what were the views of the Ministers, and of the promoters of the Bill; for it was not promoted so much by the Government as by Members from Wales, who apparently had nothing to say. He had heard more than one rumour that many of the Welsh people were in favour of Disestablishment who were not in favour of Disendowment; and not a single voice had been raised to say whether it was so or not. [Cries of "No, no ! "] Would hon. Members rise and tell them? If they would not it was a monstrous departure from the practice of the House.
  *SIR G. OSBORNE MORGANsaid, the only effect of passing the Instruction would be to give the Opposition two Bills to obstruct instead of one. In reply to a challenge which had been given, he would say he did not know of a single Nonconformist in Wales who was in favour of Disestablishment without Disendowment; he did not believe there were a dozen Nonconformists who favoured that view, or a hundred persons in all Wales who held it. Disendowment was the complement of Disestablishment; Disestablishment involved Disendowmeut. It was said by Edmund Burke 120 years ago:—
  "The Establishment is a tax laid by the same sovereign authority (i.e. the State) for the payment of those who teach and practise a certain system of religious doctrines and practices fixed and ascertained by law. For no Legislature was ever so absurd as to tax its people to support men for teaching and practising what they pleased, but according to some prescribed rule."
  That sentence contained the key to the whole question. Obedience to the law of

  563
  the State was the price which the Clergy pay for the endowments they receive. There was one thing in the speech of the hon. Member for Tunbridge Wells with which he cordially agreed, and that was in the tribute he paid to the late Lord Selborne. Having enjoyed his Lordship's friendship at the Bar and in the House, he could say that no man ever more thoroughly deserved the universal tribute of respect and admiration which his death had called forth; there never was a man who set before himself a higher standard of public conduct and who more conscientiously tried to attain to it.
  MR. J. ADDISONsaid, if there were any difficulty about the Amendment it had been removed by the speech of the right hon. Baronet, who assumed that there were no Churches in possession of endowments except Churches which were State Churches. Why there was hardly a country in Europe in which there were not Churches richly endowed, and yet to some extent were independent of the State. In this country the Nonconformists had large endowments. Would the right hon. Member propose to take away the endowments because the Churches were not connected with the State? The Roman Catholics had large endowments; would he take them away? The Disestablished Church of Ireland now had large endowments. Were they to be told that because Churches had large endowments they ought to be State churches or they were State Churches? The truth was, as had been pointed out, the two questions were quite distinct; and if they were to be properly discussed they would have to be raised by separate Bills. It was said two Bills would take more time than one—well, why not? If the subjects were distinct they ought to be able to discuss them separately. A certain number of Members might be in favour of Disestablishment and yet against Disendowment. What was meant by Establishment? It did not mean what it did in the days of the Tudors or in Russia today. For the last hundred years we had been carrying out Disestablishment in this country by repealing such Acts as the Test and Corporation Acts and by removing disabilities with regard to universities and cemeteries;
  564
  and there was nothing left which made any difference between Nonconformists and Churchmen except in matters connected with theinternal constitution of the Church and the supremacy of the Crown. In every country in Europe Churches were endowed. In France there were four Churches endowed by the State, and yet none was a State Church. So one saw from this fact that Disestablishment was so distinct from Disendowment that they ought to be separately considered.
  [Mr. TOMLINSON rose to speak, but there were loud Ministerial cries of "Thomas !" and MR. SPEAKER called upon—]
  MR. D. A. THOMASwho moved, as an Amendment to Mr. Griffith-Boscawen's Instruction, to leave out from "and" in line 5, to "and" in line 6, and insert, "with the transfer of the temporalities thereof to commissioners or other public body, and the other with the allocation and disposition of such property." The hon. Member said, he should be brief in moving his Amendment, as he did not wish to assist the obvious tactics of hon. Members opposite. He had no sympathy whatever with the Instruction as it appeared on the Paper. As the right hon. Member for East Denbigh had already said, no Welsh Member would entertain for a moment the idea of getting Disestablishment without Disendowment. If his Amendment were accepted, Disestablishment and Disendowment would form one Bill, and the application and disposition of the funds of the Church would be dealt with in a second Bill. The hon. and learned Member for the Isle of Wight asked if they had read the Irish Church Act. He had done so, and while he found that in that Act Disestablishment and Disendowment were dealt with together, the disposal of the temporalities of the Irish Church were left to a subsequent Parliament. The 68th Clause provided:—
  "With regard to the surplus funds they shall be applied accordingly in the manner Parliament shall hereinafter direct."
  The Home Secretary had appealed to the Irish Church Act as a precedent and as one of the greatest works of the right hon. Member for Midlothian, and he therefore asked the Home Secretary to regard

  565
  the precedent set by the 68th Clause of that Act. That clause was one reason why he desired this Bill to be dealt with in the way indicated by his Amendment. Another reason was, that the country had never had an opportunity of expressing an opinion on the mode of allocation proposed by the Bill. There had been a distinct change of policy on the part of the Liberal Party—as far as it was represented by the Home Secretary and his colleagues on the Treasury Bench—on this particular matter. The opponents of the Established Church in Wales had always fought this question on the ground that tithes and ancient endowments were national property and should be devoted to national purposes. Who could say the funds would be devoted to those purposes? Some parishes would get more than they needed; others would get practically nothing at all. The country had never yet had an opportunity of expressing an opinion on this particular part of the Bill, and this was a sufficient reason why it should be dealt with separately. His third reason was one of expediency for the Government. They all knew—if he might use a mixed metaphor—that they were "ploughing the sands" in order to "fill up the cup." If the Government would only narrow the field for obstruction —[Opposistion cries "Oh ! "]—on the other side of the House, they would very much lighten their labours in the direction of "ploughing" and much more easily "fill up the cup," which was the main object of their policy at the present time. These were three reasons for asking the House to adopt his Amendment. He was aware that it would be useless for him to go to a Division if the Government objected to it. In Committee he would move Amendments to alter the provisions of the Bill, and then he would be prepared for a trial of strength if necessary. He hoped the Home Secretary would give some kind of answer to what he had said. Being on the Home Secretary's own side of the house, he was entitled to one. Ho begged to move his Amendment.
  *MR. SPEAKER (after a pause): Does any hon. Member second the Amendment?
  MR. D. A. THOMAS: Is it necessary there should be a seconder?
  *MR. SPEAKERsignified assent.
  No one else rising,
  SIR RICHARD TEMPLEsaid: I will second it, Sir. [Laughter and Cheers.]
  *MR. SPEAKERhaving put the Amendment,
  MR. ASQUITHsaid: Mr. Speaker, I readily respond to the appeal of my hon. Friend the Member for Merthyr, and, in doing so, perhaps I may enter a good-tempered protest against some of the language which has been used in the course of the discussion, implying that I and the supporters of the Government have treated with scant courtesy the instruction of the hon. Member for Tunbridge. In strict accordance with Parliamentary usage I rose at once as soon as the instruction had been moved and seconded. If I had not done so I should have incurred a much more severe and merited censure from critics of the Opposition. With regard to the arguments as far as they were relevant—in favour of the instruction, I have listened to the whole debate, and, without disparaging the speeches of hon. Members opposite, I must say I have heard nothing from any subsequent speaker which was not a repetition of what was said by the mover, and I protest, at the commencement of these discussions, against the notion that it is the duty of the Government and their supporters to assist in this waste of the time of the House. Now I come to the Amendment of my hon. Friend, which I observe he has not found a seconder for among the representatives of Wales. But for the kindly interposition of the hon. Baronet the Member for Kingston, I should not now be in a position to attempt an answer. I need hardly say it is singular that my hon. Friend—representing, as he does, that there is a widespread division of opinion in Wales as to the manner in which the Bill should be dealt with—has been unable to find a seconder on his own side of the House. Surely, if what he represents is the case, amongst the 34 Members from Wales there would have been one who would have seconded his Amendment and associated himself with my hon. Friend's views.
  MR. THOMASmade a remark which did not reach the gallery.
  MR. ASQUITH: If the people of Wales are dissatisfied they are less shrewd than I give them credit for, if, being aggrieved as to the allocation of the funds of the Church, they wish to risk this Bill or throw it over and hazard the chance of its being dealt with another Session or by another Parliament. My hon. Friend has referred to the precedent of the Irish Church Act. It is quite true, that while, in the 68th section of that Act, Parliament laid down general directions that the proceeds of the property of the Church should be appropriated mainly to meet inevitable calamity and suffering, it left the precise application of the property to the judgment of a future Parliament. I ventured to say, when speaking on the subject last year, that I did not think the experience of what happened in relation to that Act encouraged us to follow that Act as a precedent. What happened? The very large surplus of the Irish Church Fund has been, I will not say dissipated—because the hon. Baronet objected to that word—or exhausted, but, at any rate, has been appropriated from time to time in a series of disconnected attempts to deal with temporary emergencies; and I do not think, in view of that experience—without pronouncing any criticism on the particular occasions or purposes on or to which the surplus has been appropriated—that Parliament should come to another conclusion than that it is better to lay down once and for all, in plain, unmistakable terms, what our purposes are intended to be. That is the plan the Government adopt in this Bill, and on reflection I think my hon. Friend will see—inasmuch as it is open to him in Committee to move any Amendments he pleases as to the machinery by which funds are to be distributed, and the particular purposes to which they are to be applied—that he will be consulting his desire, which I know to be genuine, for the progress of this Bill by withdrawing his Amendment to this Instruction.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: I will only remark on the Home Secretary's answer to the hon. Member for Merthyr that he has imperfectly acquainted himself with the facts as to the use put by Parliament of the moneys belonging to the Irish Church. He described them collectively as funds used to meet occasional and
  568
  temporary objects. Among those "occasional and temporary objects" I find £1,000,000 for the Royal University, £1,000,000 for intermediate education, £1,000,000 for the Congested Districts Board, and a very large sum—the exact amount of which I do not know— for teachers' pensions. There are four great national objects permanently associated with the welfare of Ireland—objects, I venture to say, far more worthy, to which to apply national funds, if these are national funds, than baths and washhouses. That is a question which I have no doubt will be fully debated when we get into Committee upon the Bill, and therefore I shall not trouble the House with any further observations with reference to it at the present moment. The hon. Member for Merthyr, who has so quickly run away from the position which he took up, appears to have forgotten that it is one of the fundamental principles of our proceedings that nothing that is in order in an instruction can possibly be in order in an amendment moved in Committee, and that, therefore, he will be unable to move the amendment he suggested when the Bill gets into Committee. For my own part, I shall certainly do my best when the time comes to prevent the funds of the Welsh Church from being used as a bribe to small communities, and not for the general convenience of the country. With regard to the main instruction before the House I have but little to say. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary has been assailed in rather severe language by hon. and right hon. Friends of mine for not saying more in defence of the course which the Government have taken in this matter. I, however, put a more charitable construction upon the conduct of the Government than my hon. and right hon. Friends have done, who, perhaps in a moment of pique, appear to think that Government intended to burke a discussion which they found inconvenient. I, on the other hand, am convinced that if the Government have said nothing it is because they have nothing to say. I think that if a right hon. Gentleman so fertile in the arts of controversy as the Home Secretary could do nothing better in defence of the course which the Government have taken than to quote an irrelevant sentence or two from one of

  569
  Lord Selborne's writings, there is not much to be said in favour of that course. One illusion appears to possess the right hon. Gentleman's mind. He seems to think that he has replied to every argument which has been advanced and has answered every question which has been put from this side of the House in favour of the instruction. Has he said one single word with regard to the economy of time, or rather as to the possibility of passing one Bill if that Bill was confined within moderate dimensions, as compared with the impossibility of passing a most drastic measure, a double Bill of the enormous magnitude of the Disestablishment and Disendowment Bill which we are asked to discuss? The right Hon. Gentleman has passed that argument by without, as far as I heard, uttering one single word in reference to it. The right hon. Gentleman has also passed by another argument of even more importance—I mean that which relates to the questions of disestablishment and disendowment being not only in theory, but also in practice, divided, and that it is possible, and actually happens, that men may take very strong views upon one of these questions and yet hold directly different views upon the other. My right hon. Friend the member for Bristol is right in saying that I should oppose disestablishment as much as I should oppose disendowment, for I look with favour upon neither of these proposals. There is a growing feeling in all parts of the country against disendowment [Cries of "No "], and, in spite of the disfavour with which hon. Members below the gangway may receive my statement, I can say that I have the best reasons for knowing the fact. There are men who believe in the necessity for religious organisation, and who would be of opinion that to set to work deliberately to rob that religious organisation is not a desirable employment in which to engage. I desire to use no hard language with regard to those, who hold the opposite view, but all I can say is that I believe the opinion I have given expression to to be a growing one, and that there is a large body of men who, while they are in favour of disestablishment look with increasing aversion upon disendowment. The Government have adhered to their original plan, although they have given no reason for doing so. What are their
  570
  motives as well as their reasons? The sentence quoted by the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary from Lord Selborne was to the effect that there was no large party that was in favour of disestablishment that was not also in favour of disendowment. I have no doubt that it is perfectly true that there are those who believe—I think wrongly—that the relations which exist between the Church and State are detrimental to the Church, and who believe sincerely that disestablishment would give freedom to a body which is at present hampered and trammelled by legal restrictions. No one has given greater and more admirable and more eloquent expression to that view than the right hon. Gentleman himself, in his speech on the second reading of this Bill. That opinion may be and is conscientiously held, but surely it is not fair to deprive those who conscientiously hold that opinion of all hope of ever seeing their view carried into effect unless they are also prepared to do that which I am sure many of them would do with reluctance—namely, deprive the Church of those material instruments by which her useful work is,so largely carried on. The Government are, no doubt, wisely advised, from a political point of view, in maintaining silence, but I hope that the country will understand both the causes of their policy and the motives for their silence.
  The House divided:— Ayes, 198; Noes, 231.—(Division List No. 54.)
  The House then went into Committee on the Bill,
  Mr. MELLOR in the Chair.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 1.
  *MR. GRIFTITH-BOSCAWEN (on behalf of Colonel LOCKWOOD)moved In page 1, line 7, to leave out "Ninety-seven" and insert "Ninety- eight." The object of the Amendment was to allow more time than was proposed in the clause after the passing of the Bill and before it came into operation, for the general reconstitution of the Church which should follow Disestablishment

  571
  and Disendowment. There were many complicated questions to be settled—such as the winding-up of the funds of the Church, the election of a representative body, the discipline of the Clergy—before the Church could start afresh on its own basis, and it would be utterly impossible to do all these things in the time allowed by the clause as it stood. He, therefore, hoped the Home Secretary would accept the Amendment.
  COLONEL LOCK WOOD, having apologised for not being in his place when his Amendment was called, said that, considering the gravity of the proposals of the Bill the time asked for in the Amendment to enable the Church to adapt itself to its new status was extremely short, and he felt sure the Home Secretary would grant it. The most sanguine of the Members of the Government could hardly hope that the Royal Assent would be given to the Bill before the end of August, and under the circumstances, it was no extravagant demand to ask a year's grace for the Church. In the Local Veto Bill three years' grace was allowed to the liquor trade, and surely the Church of England might ask for a year in which to make the various arrangements that would be necessary after her Disestablishment and Disendowment in Wales. The object of the maintenance of the Church undivided in England and in Wales was to secure identity of discipline, of worship, and of doctrine. The Government were now about to dissever the Church in Wales entirely from the body of which, up till now, it had always formed a part, from whom it had received assistance, and to whom it had always looked for advice and guidance. Surely the Church ought in justice to get time to make arrangements to meet that great and momentous change in her constitution? Funds would have to be raised to start her afresh on her career. He presumed that a large amount of those funds would naturally come from the landlords, who were most of them the strongest supporters of the Church in Wales. As the House was aware, the landlords at the present time were labouring under great disadvantages. One of the latest Acts of the Government was to diminish their income, and now there would be a further charge
  572
  placed upon them. The landlords would not shrink from that charge. They were willing to make the greatest possible sacrifices in order to maintain the Church in that dignified position which they thought she ought to occupy, but adequate time should be allowed to raise the necessary funds, as well as to institute general and parochial organisation for the management of the affairs of the Church. Every time they took up the Bill and examined it, the difficulties in it seemed to increase; and he contended that it was only just that the Church should be allowed sufficient time to settle her plan of organisation in order that she might not be made to suffer more than was necessary by Disestablishment and Disendowment.
  *MR. W. E. M. TOMLINSONsaid, he strongly supported the Amendment, because it was absolutely necessary that the Welsh Church should be able to constitute a representative body of both Clergy and Laity before she could receive over any money or property belonging to her. If there was to be such a body it was necessary to state by whom it was to be composed, but the Bill was silent on that point. Yet it would be a work of some time to form such a body, and which would satisfy the requirements of the law before receiving any of this Church property. The work of organising the Church and of settling matters in relation to the property that belonged to her would not be accomplished without difficulty, and unless ample time was given for the purpose very grave injustice would be done. The Welsh Church was already being treated with sufficient harshness and cruelty without doing the further injustice of refusing to give her time to constitute the bodies necessary for organ isation under the new conditions. For this attack on that Church could not be made on the ground that she failed in her work. For a long time past she had been doing work which was indispensable for the moral and spiritual welfare of the people of Wales; and this fact would make it all the more cruel and unjust if her opponents refused to give her sufficient time to properly organise before the date of Disestablishment.
  MR. BRYCEsaid, the proposal in the Bill as to time was the same as that adopted in the Irish Church Act,

  573
  and the Government thought they ought to proceed on the same lines as was followed in that case. Of course there were many questions which would occupy much attention, and would have to be settled on the part of the Welsh Church in consequence of its Disestablishment and Disendowment; but all those questions were equally incidental to the Disestablishment of the Irish Church. In fact the problems and difficulties to be dealt with were greater and larger in the case of the Irish than they could be in that of the Welsh Church. The area was larger, the funds were greater, and the scheme more complicated. Questions of commutation had to be dealt with to a far greater extent than would arise in this instance, and yet the time given in the case of the Irish Church was found to be sufficient. The Government, therefore, did not see any reason for granting longer time in the case of the Welsh Church than was given in that of the Irish Church.
  *SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, it would hardly be denied that the circumstances of the two cases were very different. The Irish Church was ecclesiastically an absolutely separate body, and there was no difficulty in disentangling her from ecclesiastical connection with any other Church. She framed her own organisation with comparative ease. But the Welsh Church consisted of four dioceses of the English Church, and had no separate organisation. Surely in these circumstances the Government did not desire that those four dioceses should not have sufficient time to be able to organise themselves for Church purposes before the date of Disestablishment arrived, and it would be far more difficult, and require more careful deliberation, for this to be done in the case of the Welsh Church than in that of the Irish. The right hon. Gentleman had stated that there were no proposals for commutation in this Bill, and that therefore less time would be required for organisation. But the opponents of the Bill hoped that before it left Committee some such proposals would be inserted. This was not a matter of principle, for the Bill would not be more acceptable to him, or to those who thought with him, even if; the date were prolonged to any extent. But he contended that the Members of
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  the Church in Wales were entitled to a liberal allowance of time in order to make the necessary arrangements. The demand of his hon. Friend, therefore, was a very reasonable one, and he sincerely hoped the Government would yet be able to see their way to meet it.
  MR. R. G. WEBSTERsaid, the case of the Irish Church was totally different to that of the Welsh Church. That had been practically admitted by the right hon. Member for Midlothian, and he would quote a few words from that right hon. Gentleman to show that he considered the disentangling of the Irish Church to be a very difficult one. The right hon. Gentleman said:—
  "The operation of disestablishing the Church of Ireland will not be an easy one. It will be found that it is tied and netted and tangled in such a mass of legal bonds and meshes with the general body of the Church that it will lie a very formidable matter to accomplish the untying process."
  The disconnection of the Welsh with the English Church would be found an equally formidable matter. The request for further time ought therefore in common justice to be granted.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNEsaid, it I was only fair that the Welsh Church should be given full time to make arrangements with regard to the property and endowments that justly belonged to her. The President of the Board of Trade seemed to think that the English Churchmen would come forward with large subscriptions to help the Welsh Church. That might be the case or not; at any rate it could not be relied on, and one of the difficulties that might arise, might be that money would have to be withdrawn from the works of education in Wales. There were two other points of difficulty, there was the extraordinary position of the Archbishop, who, after the passing of this Bill, would be in some sense the Supreme Court of Appeal, though nobody could understand how that was to be dovetailed into the new arrangement by which the discipline of the Church would be administered by the temporary Court. There was also the great difficulty of the allotment of the various parishes which were partly in Wales and partly in England. But the construction of the new constitution of the Welsh Church would

  575
  form a body of work which would require more than 12 months for its execution. There was the constitution of the dioceses, the parochial organisations, the method in which the register should be drawn, and the new Ecclesiastical Courts which would have to be made. In addition to this there was the administration of patronage; how the Bishops were to be appointed, and how the authorities who appointed the Bishops were to be constituted; how the Clergy were to be nominated, and how the authorities who nominated them were to be constituted. All these enormus questions had to be decided. It was not as if a vested interest would creep up between the passing of this Act and a postponed date of Disestablishment, because the vested interests ceased the day the Act received the Royal Assent. In the case of the Irish Church there was no difference of opinion between them and the Government of the day as to the particular constitution which a Disestablished and Disendowed Church should have, the two Parties managed to come to an agreement at once; but the Irish Church took special care to reserve their assent to the Charter until the matter was settled. The present Government were far more hostile to the Church and Church interests than were the Government over which the right hon. Member for Midlothian presided. There was now no such ardent Churchman in the ranks of the Government as the right hon. Member for Midlothian, and they had no reason to be certain that the proposed constitution of the representative body, and the various synods subject to that body, would be agreeable to Her Majesty's Government. That was an additional reason for the extension of the time.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid, the right hon. Baronet opposite had said very truly that this was not a question of principle but of detail, and he had listened with great attention to the observations of the noble Lord, in which, he supposed, he had stated all that could be stated in favour of a further postponement of date. In fixing the 1st January, 1897, they strictly followed the precedent adopted in the case of the Irish Church. In the case of the Irish Church when, in another place, attempts were made to obtain still more liberal and sympathetic terms
  576
  to the Church, the utmost extension given was from the 1st January to the 1st May in the same year, and he believed that Amendment was not insisted upon. Hon. Gentlemen now were asking for a great deal more in the case of the Welsh Church than was asked for, even in another place, in the case of the Irish Church. He ventured to think the present was a very much clearer case. It had already been stated that there were a smaller number of churches and persons whose interests were affected, and in point of money this was a very much less valuable and complicated property. He must point out, further, that they had now to discuss this question on the assumption of the Bill as it stood, and not of the Bill with an Amendment for commutation introduced into it. The plan which they proposed was one which would impose on the Church during the period of transition less arduous duties than were imposed on the Disestablished Church in Ireland. Every clergyman would remain in exactly the same position as he was in at the time the Act passed as long as he continued in his duties. He thought, therefore, the noble Lord had made a new emergency, which was entirely out of the question. He was not afraid of saying that any provision of this Bill was intended for the use or convenience of the Church, although he observed that statements of that kind were not treated as if they were made in sincerity. It was his deliberate conviction that the period of transition of the Church in its new status should not be unduly prolonged. The noble Lord himself had pointed out that no vested interest could be created, but on the other hand until the date of Disestablishment no newly vested body could be constituted, and it was most desirable that the Church as soon as possible should be able to come to arrangements for her future constitution. They must keep the date now in the Bill, following the precedent of the Irish Act, and they had not been able to discover any case of hardship which did not exist more strongly in the case of the Irish Church.
  MR. G. C. T. BARTLEYsaid, there were about 1,000 Vicars, and in the ordinary course there would be in the first year something like 75 livings dropped. It would mean that the

  577
  Church would have to provide the sum of £11,000 a year to make up the deficiencies which the dropping of these livings would cause, which would be a serious burden. Under these circumstances it would be reasonable for the Government to give a larger amount of time. He had no doubt that efforts would be made to raise the sum, but if the Government only wished for the principle of Disestablishment, and wished to do what they could to facilitate this great change, surely it would not be unreasonable to extend the time. Unless this concession were made it would look as if the whole of the Government procedure was to be on the lines of imposing the greatest hardship that could be imposed upon the Church.
  *SIR G. OSBORNE MORGANobserved that it was now stated that the period of 18 months given by the Bill was not sufficient to enable the Church to make satisfactory financial arrangements. He would point out that the Church Defence party found a period of seven or eight months sufficiently long to enable them to collect money to pay the election expenses of all candidates who would oppose Disestablishment. If they collected a fund for that purpose in eight months, surely in 18 months they would be able to find enough money for the purposes indicated in the Bill?
  SIR F. S. POWELL,as Treasurer of the Church Defence Fund, was glad to have the opportunity of stating in the most public manner, that not one farthing of their money had been devoted to any election purpose whatever.
  *SIR G. OSBORNE MORGAN: I was not speaking of the Fund of which the hon. Baronet is Treasurer, but of what is known in Wales as the Grosvenor House Fund, and which was collected under the auspices of the Duke of Devonshire.
  SIR F. S. POWELLreplied, that the right hon. Baronet knew much more about Grosvenor House than it was his privilege to know. He was not aware that the Duke of Devonshire had any authority in Grosvenor House.
  *SIR G. OSBORNE MORGAN: The Duke of Westminster, I should have said.
  SIR F. S. POWELL,dealing with the Amendment, contended that the Church
  578
  in Wales was entitled to a longer time than was given in the case of the Irish Church, because its treatment was much more severe, and the arrangements made by the Bill were far more complex, than they were in the Irish case. Again, before those arrangements could be completed a vast amount of work had to be performed by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. He was quite sure that the time asked for by the Amendment was greatly required, and the refusal of their very moderate request was another illustration of the harshness of the step which was being taken by the Government.
  *MR. J. G. TALBOTobserved, that he ventured to think the right hon. Gentleman, with all his varied experience, was not well versed in the constitution of Church assemblies, and there was, therefore, one point which, with all his good intentions, he had hardly appreciated. Anybody who knew the constitution of Church synods and assemblies, must know that they were not bodies which were easily formed. The Church synod, or body, which was to be formed under this Bill, was of a very peculiar character, because it was formed of elements which were entirely obscure. For instance, they did not know who were to compose the laity of the Church in Wales. He was quite sure that many of the supporters of the Government, if they liked to insist upon it, could be the laity in Wales; because the theory was, that the Church of England was open to every baptized parishioner. The constituent parts of this new body were an entirely indeterminate matter. It would, he contended, require a long time to arrange how they were to determine who had a right to vote and sit as laymen in this new Church body. Two years was not at all too much to give for such a purpose as this. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that what he was doing was in the interests of the Church. They did not deny the good intentions of the right hon. Gentleman, but surely he must give them the credit of knowing a little more what the Church-people in Wales desired than he did. These proposals had been forced upon the Church in Wales, and had not been matured with any consultation with the Church authorities, who had pronounced vehemently against any

  579
  proposition of this kind. While he gave the right hon. Gentleman credit for the best intentions, he could not help saying that if he wished to make this Bill easy of operation, he would do more wisely if he accepted the suggestion of those who knew what were the desires of the Church-people instead of taking the line he had in this matter. This was one of the first, as it was one of the most reasonable, Amendments that had been suggested, and he hoped it would be accepted.
  MR. THOMAS BUCKNILLpointed out that Sub-section 2 of Clause 4 provided that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners should, before the day in question—that was, before the 1st of January 1897—perform all the matters referred to in the Sub-section which were a gigantic work in themselves. If they had not time to do that work, and did not, therefore, perform it, what was to be the consequence? He ventured to think that was a riddle, which was not altogether easy of solution, and, if the extension were made which was now asked for, it would at any rate give the Commissioners more time for the performance of their duties. Again, by Clause 21 of the Bill, the Commissioners had very important duties to discharge in connection with the property there specified. He should like to know—and he did not think it was an unimportant question—what was to be the legal effect of these things not being done by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, who were told, not that they should do what was required of them within such time, or as soon after as they could, but that they should and must do it by the day in question—namely, the 1st of January 1897? Why should they not, as the Amendment asked, have another twelve months in which to do that work? The Irish precedent did not apply here, and they asked, therefore, that as the Commissioners had more work to do than had to be done under the Irish Act, that there should be further time in which to do it. He foresaw that a great deal of difficulty would arise hereafter if, in point of fact, the work required of the Commissioners was not performed in the time specified in the Bill as it stood. There was no penalty to be imposed upon them for not discharging those duties; they were under no legal obligation of
  580
  any description; and if the Commissioners said they had not done what was required of them and had not been able to do it, what consequences were to follow?
  *MR, HENRY HOBHOUSEsaid that, personally, he should not be disposd to object to the date named in the Bill if he got a definite assurance from the Government on a particular point—namely, that before the 1st of January 1897, they would consult the opinion of the country at a General Election. It was one of the absurdities of the present position that, though this House might be in favour of the Bill, a great many of them were certain that the country was not; and they knew that if a General Election took place between the present date and the date of the coming into operation of the Bill, the Bill would never come into operation at all. But, unfortunately, they were left in great uncertainty as to the moment at which the Government might think it right to consult the country on this and other questions; and, that being so, the opponents of the Bill were bound to insist on a proper date being inserted in the Bill which would give ample time for all the necessary arrangements to be made.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 100; Noes, 148.—(Division List No. 55.)
  MR. STANLEY LEIGHTON MR. STANLEY LEIGHTON moved to leave out the explanatory words in the 1st Clause: "In this Act referred to as the date of Disestablishment." He said that when reference was made to any date or fact, the simplest way was to give the date or the fact, and not to introduce a synonym, and especially one which was not intelligible. The expression "the date of Disestablishment" conveyed to his mind no meaning at all, because Disestablishment was a vague term, which he did not understand and which no one present could define. He had never met any authority, either legal or ecclesiastical, who could explain what was meant by this vague word. The words which he desired to substitute were at all events plain English. There might be a precedent for the expression in the Bill in the Irish Church Act, but there was no reason that he knew why a bad precedent should be followed. The expression in the Bill would be likely to

  581
  confuse people. He begged to move his Amendment.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid, that it was from no morbid attachment to the word "Disestablishment" that it had been inserted so often. This was merely a question of draughtsmanship. It would be manifestly inconvenient to be constantly repeating the words "the 1st day of January 1897." The words in the Bill occupied less space—[Mr. LEIGHTON: "No! no!"]—and the phrase was neater and better adapted to the purposes of reference.
  MR. STANLEY LEIGHTONwas not at all satisfied with the right hon. Gentleman's explanation. The words which he desired to leave out and those which he desired to insert occupied about the same space.
  SIR RICHARD TEMPLEsaid, that just before the dinner hour he rose to ask the Home Secretary what he meant by "Disestablishment." His hon. Friend the Member for Shropshire proposed to leave out the words: "In this Act referred to as the date of Disestablishment." The hon. Gentleman mentioned several inconveniences in this use of language. For instance, whenever the words were used in the many sections of the Bill or Act, if it ever became an Act, the lay reader would have to look back to see what was the date of Disestablishment. He understood it was meant to be the 1st of January 1897. That being so, why should it not be specified in the different sections? As a matter of facility for those who would hereafter have to deal with the Bill, who would have to administer it and to obey it, it was far better at once to specify the date. But that was perfectly a comparatively small point. He wanted to go further, and ask Her Majesty's Government where they got the word "Disestablishment" from and what it meant? Was it a scientific term, was it a legal term? There were great legal luminaries in the House. Would they inform him whether
  "Disestablishment" was a legal or scientific term? If he were to ask the Attorney General what the meaning of the word was he supposed the hon. and learned Gentleman would require three or four minutes in which to reply. Strange to say, the word "Disestablishment" did not occur in the Irish Act,
  582
  which began by saying it was expedient that the union created by Act of Parliament between the two Churches should be dissolved. The words here used were nothing more than a general and literary phrase, and he doubted whether they constituted a proper phrase to put in an Act of Parliament. He doubted whether the legal luminaries on either Front Bench could cite a precedent for the way in which the word "Disestablishment" was used. He had a general and indefinite idea of what was meant, but only in the sense of omne ignotum pro magnified. It was a word of the gravest and most portentous import, and ought not to be used in this light and airy manner at the beginning of this Bill. If this phrase were omitted, then the simple date could be used throughout the Bill.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes, 80; Noes, 144.—(Division List, No. 56.)
  An Amendment on the Paper in the name of Viscount WOLMER proposed to omit the words "So far as it is by law established."
  MR. LAURENCE HARDYwished to move this Amendment on behalf of the noble Lord, whose absence they all deplored, because he had been a force in their Debates, and he had been identified with the discussion of this particular Bill. It seemed to him that these words were a matter of surplusage, and were hardly necessary in the Bill. He would not press that point, but he would rather raise the question what was the meaning of the phrase, in order that they might have it clearly defined by the Government before they went any further. When they got a definition it would make their Debates easier, and bring their discussion of some matters more to the front than they would otherwise be. In the case of the Disestablishment of the Irish Church there were two united but distinct Churches—the English Church and the Irish Church. But even in that case, when the Bill was in Committee, the Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Disraeli) raised a point as to whether it was not very undesirable to separate the two Churches of Ireland and England as far as they were established by law, because the great

  583
  object was to maintain identity of doctrine, worship, and discipline in them. So far from this having been achieved, the last few days had shown the main body of Church opinion in Ireland almost determined that the leading Churchmen of England should not be invited to take part in Diocesan Conferences in Ireland. Disestablishment, therefore, had taken the two Churches very far apart, and, practically, had created a new sect. The aim in religious matters to-day was for reunion, whether in drawing closer to the Roman Catholics, as had been suggested by Rome, or by adopting some basis of agreement with the Nonconformists, as was suggested last year at Grindelwald. The whole tendency was to union and not to severance; and, therefore, he wished it to be enacted that the Welsh Church, even after the passing of this Bill, should be identical with the English Church in doctrine, discipline, and Government. If the Government accepted the Amendment, they would meet the objections of many loyal Churchmen. He did not think that Welsh Churchmen at present desired to leave the English Church, but it was feared that in time they might become severed from it entirely in doctrine and discipline. That was the main object of the Amendment. If the words were omitted from the Bill, the other results aimed at would not be affected. Disendowment and the right of the Bishops to sit in the House of Lords would be left to be decided by the subsequent clauses.
  MR. BRYCEsaid, that he fully joined with the hon. Member in deploring the absence of the noble Lord in whose name the Amendment stood, and he joined with what had been said earlier in the evening as to the regret which must be felt at the death of the very distinguished father of the noble Lord—the Earl of Selborne. In the absence of the noble Lord it was not easy to see what interpretation should be placed on the Amendment. He did not think that, if it were accepted, it would have the effect desired by the hon. Member of preventing the severance of the two Churches. The Welsh Church would be able to maintain its connection with the English Church if it preferred to do so apart from the retention or omission of the words proposed to be
  584
  left out. Those words were in substance the words of the Irish Church Act. The phrase "by law" referred to all statutes and common law dealing with the Established Church and putting on another footing from other religious bodies. It did not refer to anyone particular statute.
  SIR RICHARD WEBSTERsaid that he should have been more satisfied with the right hon. Gentleman's answer if he had explained the object of retaining the words objected to. The Bill enacted certain specific changes in the law, as, for instance, the abolition of the Bishops sitting in the House of Lords, and the right of members of the Church to attend Convocation. The meaning of the Amendment was, that the words proposed to be left out were not necessary for the general purpose of the Bill. This enactment "by law" had no meaning beyond that which would be attributed to it by the subsequent clauses of the Bill; and if the words were left in without any absolute enacting force, it would give ground for the contention that the new Disestablished Church was to be autonomous, would alter its doctrine as it pleased, and was to have a freer hand than it would have if these words were not in the Bill. Of course, if the right hon. Gentleman could show any legal consequence, which it was necessary to bring about by the inclusion of these words, the case would be different. There should be in this Act an analogous provision to that in the Irish Church Act. No one desired to deprive Church-people in Wales of the privilege of being married according to the rites of the Church. The words, "shall cease to be established," might convey the idea that, by the express decision of Parliament, such a connection as the connection of the Church with the ecclesiastical marriage law—partly statute, partly canon law—would cease any longer to continue. Neither the Home Secretary nor any hon. Member opposite thought this point was raised in any spirit of obstruction. The words referred to would be construed by Liberationists as being the pronounced opinion of Parliament, and it might be almost argued that it would be illegal for the Disestablished Church to endeavour to put itself under the disciplinary jurisdiction of the Archbishop of Canterbury, or other

  585
  inferences might be drawn from the words which would be detrimental to the interests of the Church. He would be glad to know whether there was any special reason apart from the Irish Church Act for adopting this particular form of words. There was a distinct reason for adopting the form of words used in the case of the Irish Church, which did not apply here. The Irish Church was a Statutory Church, and when the Act of Union was repealed, there was less need for using the words. It was not denied that the Church in Wales was an integral part of the Church of England, and that the four Welsh dioceses were part of the Province of Canterbury. Unless there was a specific object for retaining the words in the clause they should not be retained, because it would give rise to misapprehensions and embarrassments as to what the position of the Established Church was to be.
  *MR. ASQUITHsaid he was anxious there should be no controversy on non-essential points, therefore he would endeavour to explain why, as he understood the phraseology of the clause had been framed as it was. The Government might have followed the language of the Irish Act. Had they done so his hon. and learned Friend's objection would not have applied.
  SIR RICHARD WEBSTERsaid, the substance would have applied.
  *MR. ASQUITHsaid, the reason why they adopted the phraseology of the clause was simple—because they were dealing here, not with the Church as a whole, but the Church in a particular local area. Therefore, dealing with "Church of England," they limited the area affected as—
  "The Church of England, as far as it is established by law in Wales and Monmouthshire, should cease to be established,"
  in order to clearly show they were only dealing with the part of the Established Church in Wales. He thought the words used were preferable to any other form of expression.
  MR. J. GRANT LAWSONobserved that, when the Bill to disestablish the Irish Church was brought in, the Acts dealing with the Church in Ireland were read at the Table. No such course had been pursued with reference to this Bill. The House was placed in possession of measures
  586
  which established the Irish Church, but was not aware what the measures were which established the Church in Wales. This made a considerable difference. He contended that the same course should be pursued with regard to this Bill that was followed in reference to the Irish Act.
  MR. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWENasserted that the Irish Church was distinctly established by Act of Parliament and was a State Church. No doubt the Irish Church was established by the Act of Union. Nothing of the kind had happened here. He denied absolutely that any Act could be pointed to that had established the Church in England or Wales. He hoped the Home Secretary would not follow the Irish precedent when the cases were dissimilar.
  MR. W. AMBROSEsaid, he entirely sympathised with the arguments of the hon. Member for Tunbridge. The language of the clause was altogether vague, and the Committee should know what it had to deal with. The Irish Church was established by the Act of Union. The English Church was not established by any single Act, but by a series of Acts which tended to establish the supremacy of the State over the Church, and over the ministers of religion. There had always been a tendency on the part of those who had exercised control over the consciences of men in the character of spiritual advisers to bring that control to bear in relation to temporal matters. One of the first laws to be abolished by this clause would be the Constitutions of Clarendon. They were passed at a time when the Princes of Wales were struggling against the Archbishop of Canterbury, who claimed supremacy of the Church over the State. They were appealing from the Archbishop to the Pope, and Henry II. caused the Constitutions of Clarendon to be passed. They were to secure appeals in spiritual matters from the Archdeacon to the Archbishop, and from the Archbishop to the Pope. But it was provided that appeals should be from the Archbishop to the King, and not from the King to anyone else. The exemption of clerics from some of the civil laws was provided for; in fact, the connection of Church and State began with

  587
  the Constitutions of Clarendon, and continued by other Acts of Parliament too numerous to mention. There was not a single Act establishing the Church in England or Wales. It was done by a series of Acts. Where would the Nonconformists of the present day have been but for the protection of the State? Ever since the Constitutions of Clarendon a struggle had been going on between the Church on the one hand and the State on the other. There was no religious community entirely free from State control; and no community that was established by law; he did not care what community they referred to. Take the Wesleyans, they were established by law. With regard to Wesleyans, if a minister preached doctrines contrary to that Church he could be dealt with. He would be liable to an injunction, and prevented preaching in the chapel. The law protected the congregation, and it was exactly what the law did with regard to the Church of England. He was not dealing with tithes or anything of that kind. If they passed this clause they would abolish that entirely. He was not sure that some form of Disestablishment might not be practicable. Complaint was made that the Church was limited in its scope, but they had the same control exercised as to doctrine among the Wesleyans and other denominations. They might alter their doctrine, and he thought they did so, by their Conference and Church Courts. Why not have that so far as the Church of England was concerned? It was not what the clause provided; it was what it abolished entirely. He doubted very much whether, when they passed that clause, they would not put the Church outside the law, and where the Trades Unions were before the recent Act legalising them was passed. It was true that there was no Church in the present day which occupied the position which was occupied by the Church of Home in the early days of their English history, in the time of Henry II., and so
  588
  on. He meant to say that it was one of the greatest points in favour of the Church of England that the law kept the clergyman in his proper place, and prevented him from tyrannising over his congregation or those subject to his administration. Do not let them imagine that there was nothing like tyranny outside the Church of England. Might he mention one single instance? He was soliciting a vote. Another gentleman stood by, and he said—
  "I am his minister. Will you have the goodness to address your remarks to me? I will answer them."
  He said, "Are you a minister?" and he mentioned some denomination. He said, "Do you claim to be the keeper of his conscience?" and the answer was—
  "Understand that any observations you may wish to make to So-and-so you must make them to me, and I will give you you're answer.''
  He declined under these circumstances to make any observations at all to the minister. He made this statement to the Committee on his personal honour. Did they need to go farther than the case of Ireland to show the necessity of maintaining control of the connection of the Church with the State? He said that was necessary to maintain civil and religious liberty in its fullest sense. Where would that be but for the subordination of the Church to the State? Do not destroy the loyalty of the Church as a body; do not abolish the whole thing en bloc. He asked hon. Members whether they were aware that this clause would abolish the foundations of the Church? Well, he told them that was a fact, and he hoped the Committee would consider well before it passed this clause, and he should vote against it.
  *MR. W. E. M. TOMLINSONsaid, if there were any statutes by which the Church of England was established in Wales and Monmouthshire, they applied to England as well. The clause described a thing which did not exist. It referred to a Church "as established by law in Wales and Monmouthshire."

  589
  This raised the historic question, and he could not help thinking that the Amendment of the noble Lord (Viscount Wolmer) did raise a very serious question as to the idea of the status of the Church in the minds of the framers of the Bill, and how they intended to affect it by this clause. When they first found the Church in existence it was not a Church established by law. The union of the Welsh Dioceses with the Province of Canterbury took place before Parliamentary authority extended over Wales. What did the Government mean by these words? Let them put their meaning in more definite terms. The right hon. Gentleman talked about leaving the Church free, but the Bill did not leave the Church free at all. Under the provisions of this Bill the Bishops and clergy would in future be prohibited from continuing to be represented in Convocation, as they had been for more than 1,000 years. This was really an attempt to start a new organisation not a free organisation. They were to be almost compelled to establish a separate corporate existence. Until they had a fuller explanation of these words he should feel bound to resist them.
  MR. R. G. WEBSTERsaid, the words appeared to him to be too vague. If they passed that clause they would not alter the social status of the clergyman. He wished to point out that the clergy of the Church of England, being under an Act of Parliament, were bound by the law more strictly than Nonconformist ministers were.
  MR. DAVID THOMASwished to know whether the hon. Member opposite was entitled to go into matters of this kind, which had nothing to do with the Amendment before the Committee.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I cannot say that the hon. Member is out of Order, but at the same time I think that his observations are rather irrelevant to the question before the Committee.
  MR. R. G. WEBSTERsaid that, in his opinion, words ought to be substituted
  590
  for those in the clause which would give it a more definite meaning.
  *MR. STANLEY LEIGHTONsaid, that instead of these words having been inserted in the enacting part of the Bill, they might have been better put in the Preamble. The words "so far as established by law" were mere surplusage. They repealed no existing law, they effected no change in the law, they enacted no new law, so they ought to be struck out of the clause.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, that he understood that the hon. Gentleman had moved the omission of the words merely with the object of eliciting from the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary what meaning the Government attached to them. In reply, the right hon. Gentleman had made some reference to the Irish Act, and had said that, so far as he could see, it did not matter whether the words "so far as established by law" were in the Bill or not. The words in the Bill were—"The Church of England, so far as it is established by law, shall cease to be established.''
  MR. ASQUITH: "In Wales or Monmouthshire." Those are important words, as defining the area within which the Bill is to operate.
  *SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, that he certainly understood that the right hon. Gentleman had said that it would have precisely the same effect if they enacted that "the Church in Wales and Monmouthshire shall cease to be established.'' In that case, what was the right hon. Gentleman fighting about?
  MR. ASQUITH: I will tell you. I am not fighting at all as a matter of fact. The language of the Bill is quite clear, and defines the area in which Disestablishment is to take place.
  *SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, that that was exactly what the words objected to did not do. The words which defined the area were the words "in Wales or Monmouthshire." and

  591
  these were not now objected to. The words "as established by law" had no reference to the limitation of the area within which the Bill was to operate. The matter might be dealt with by a slight alteration in the language of the clause. Did the right hon. Gentleman object to the words "the Church of England in Wales or Monmouthshire shall cease to be established by law?"
  MR. ASQUITH: I do not object to those words, only they are very much worse language than that which appears in the Bill.
  *SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, that he had made the suggestion because he hoped to make peace He defied the Government, however, to name the Statutes which established the Church in Wales. Let the Government copy the words of the Irish Act exactly, and say that the Church of England in Wales and Monmouth shall cease to be established by law. He did not care which course was adopted. The Government were the authors of the Bill, and the responsibility of its interpretation rested with them. But if they insisted on the present words, he did not think it was worth while to go to the trouble of dividing.
  MR. AMBROSEasked that a schedule of the statutes should be furnished which bound the Church of England, and which the Government now proposed to repeal.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."
  The House divided:—Ayes, 188; Noes, 147.—(Division List, No. 57.)
  *MR. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN*MR. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWEN rose to move in Clause 1, page 1, line 8, after "law," to insert—
  "In any respects in which other religious bodies are not so established."
  He said that the Government seemed to have forgotten that the Nonconformists
  592
  were also established, though not in the same sense as the Church. They must bring the Church down to the same point of establishment as the Nonconformists at the present moment. He could prove in a great many ways that the Nonconformists were established by law. Speaker On slow had so stated. Ministrations in chapels were protected from disturbance. Chapels were protected from payment of rates, and this of itself almost amounted to endowment. The doors of chapels were kept open, so that all might have access to them; and they were registered and certified by Act of Parliament. It was, therefore, clear that chapels were established in precisely the same way, though not, perhaps, to exactly the same extent as the Church. It was objected that one of the objects of establishment and of regulation by the State, or subjection to the State, was the fact that the Church courts were, to a certain extent, State courts, and they were so to this extent, that all coercive authority was derived from the Crown. But if Dissenters had a dispute, if they thought that there had been any abuse of the way in which the services of the Church were conducted, they had to go to the State Court—to the ordinary Court of Law—and were subject to coercive authority which belonged to every Court of Law. They were, therefore, established in a very real sense. If the Government were going to disestablish the Church, and if they wished to place her on a footing of absolute equality with Dissenters, they ought to disestablish her only in the sense in which she was different Prom Dissenters. If this Amendment were not carried, were Churches to be rated? were they not to be protected from disturbance? were they not to be bound to keep their doors open to all comers? If not, it would be very unfair. He felt sure the Government could not lave taken fully into consideration the case of the Nonconformists when they inserted the clause in question in it

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  present form, and it would greatly facilitate the passing of the Bill if the Amendment lie moved was now accepted
  *MR. STANLEY LEIGHTONsaid, that with a view to prove that Dissent was as much established as churchmanship and to elaborate the point laid down by his lion. Friend lie would call the attention of the Committee to a quotation, from a well-known book showing how Nonconformity was regarded in the time of William and Mary. In "Calamy's Life and Times," edited by J. T. Rutt, was to be found the following statement—
  "This gentleman (Sir Humphrey Edwin, Lord Mayor) not only worshipped God publicly with the Dissenters, according to his usual custom, hut carried the regalia with him to the meeting-house, which very much disgusted many of the Church of England. … a practice defended by one of his party by this argument—that by the Act of Parliament, by which the Dissenters had their liberty, their religion was as much established as that of the Church."
  The allowance of the law, it was contended, was a sufficient establishment. Now on this point of law he presumed no legal Gentleman opposite would dispute the legal ruling of Lord Mansfield. In 1767 that learned Judge, in the cause between the city of London and the Dissenters on the nomination of Sheriffs, laid down the law thus—
  "The Toleration Act renders that which was illegal before now legal. The Dissenters' way of worship is permitted and allowed by this Act. It is not only exempted from punishment, but rendered innocent and lawful. It is established."
  Dr. Furneaux, in his letter to Blackstone, argued the point with great erudition, and put the point this way—
  "Can," he said, "a religious society be considered not established which can go to the highest court of law and insist upon a mandamus for a licence to hold their worship?"
  If a religious society was recognised and privileged by the State it was established by the law, that is, "legilus stabilita.'' The Establishment of Dissent was not of modern date. Philip Henry wrote in his diary on the 7th of April, 1672, "This day I received my licence unsought
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  and unexpected." Who was the licence signed by? By Secretary Arlington, and it was in those words—
  "We hereby allow of a room or rooms in the house of Philip Henry, in Malpas parish, Flintshire, to be a place for the use of such as do not conform to the Church of England."
  How could such societies be called merely private organisations? They were controlled, privileged and licensed by the State, and this had been going on for a great length of time. Dissenting ministers sometimes imagined in. their ignorance that they were not in any way under the control, and never had been under the control, of the State. They were greatly mistaken. The State licensed them and looked after their doctrine. The hon. Member then read the form of licence granted to Richard Griffiths, Calvinist Dissenting Minister, Montgomeryshire, in 1809, as follows:—
  "I, Charles Jones, Clerk of the Peace of the County of Montgomery, do hereby certify that Robert Griffiths, of Llanwyddan, in the County aforesaid, Dissenting Preacher or Teacher, did at a general quarter sessions of the peace holden and kept in the Guildhall at Montgomery in and for the said County, in the week after the translation of St. Thomas the Martyr, to wit, on Thursday the 13th day of July, in the year of our Lord 1809, in open Court take the oaths of allegiance and supremacy and make and subscribe the declaration against Popery, and also the declaration that he is a Christian and a Protestant, and as such that he believed the scriptures of the Old and New Testament, and received the same as the rule of his doctrine and practice."
  This was the form of licence which was in force up to very late days. He had asked again and again in vain, and he still asked, for a definition of the words established by law." He now asked the Home Secretary to differentiate in principle between the position of Nonconformity and that of the Church as regarded its public recognition. He should be glad to get any one of authority to give such a definition. The best definition he had seen was to be found in "The Case for Disestablishment," a book which was published by the Liberation Society. It is this:—
  ''The condition of a religious society, which has favours or privileges conferred upon it by

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  the authority of Parliament, that is by public law, which if it were not a religious society it could not have enjoyed; its organisation recognised, its procedure regulated, by the State."
  Every one of those characteristics of Establishment belonged to Nonconformists. He would venture to describe to the Home Secretary how a Nonconformist minister was privileged and established:—
  "When a minister (who has been educated at Homerton under a scheme established by the Charitable Trusts Act, 1853 and 1891) goes into his chapel (which has been acquired under the 32 and 33 Vict., and which is exempted from rates by the 3 and 4 Will. IV. c. 30), his ministrations are protected from disturbance (by the 52 Geo. III.). The doors are kept open during the performance of public worship, in order that all who desire may have access to the services (under 52 Geo. III. c. 155). If he happens to preach a doctrine inconsistent with the trust-deed (which the State has enrolled in Chancery) the State removes him. The chapel itself is registered and certified for religious worship by Act of Parliament (18 and 19 Vict, c. 36). The minister himself is a privileged person by reason of his office, and is exempted from serving civil offices by statute (52 Geo. III. c. 153) as long as he serves the chapel. When he celebrates the marriage of any of his congregation he acts under the provisions of the 18 and 19 Vict. c. 81. When he is called upon to bury one of his congregation in a churchyard he acts under the provisions of the 43 and 44 Vict. c. 41. The registers of his chapel are kept under the State guardianship in the Non-parochial Register Office in Somerset House, according to the provisions of the 6 and 7 Will. IV. and the 3 and 4 Vict. c. 92. For the purpose of cheaply transferring from one set of trustees to another the chapel endowments, the services of the Charity Commissioners, &c., are at his disposal under the 13 and 14 Vict, c. 23."
  Let us go a step farther:—
  "Perhaps he has been preaching doctrines other than those which were held by the founders of the chapel. If he or his predecessors have done so for 25 years, the State steps in and establishes those doctrines as correct, by the 7 and 8 Vict. c. 45. The reason for this exceptional legislation arose from the Court of Chancery having decided that it was illegal to preach Unitarian doctrine in Presbyterian chapels. It turned out, however, that in a great number of Presbyterian chapels this practice prevailed. Parliament was therefore appealed to, and gave a Parliamentary title to the possession of the religious Endowments of a chapel to any denomination which could prove that for 25 years it had been in possession; notwithstanding that the doctrines which it taught were wholly inconsistent with the doctrines held by its original founders."
  He hoped he had proved the Establishment of Nonconformists by Acts of
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  Parliament. But there was another indirect form of Establishment. From the year 1723 to 1850 an annual grant in the Appropriation Acts was made to the Dissenting community out of the public revenue, he would quote one example—similar words were to be found in each Appropriation Act—in 1805, in the Act 45 George III., c. 129, s. 17, they found:—
  "For Protestant Dissenting ministers in England and Ireland and French refugees the sum of £10,471 1s.," and "for the Presbyterian ministers of the Synods of Ulster and Minister the sum of £8,73l 18s."
  This went on till 1850. At the present time Nonconformists received public assistance out of the public rates and taxes to the extent of something like £30,000 or £40,000 a year in exemption from rates as "places of public religious worship registered and certified as such." They obtained this pecuniary privilege by the 3 and 4 Will. IV. Thus it was shown that Nonconformist chapels and ministers were not only established but endowed by law, their constitutions were legalised, the observance of their deeds was enforced by law, and their chapels exempted from taxation. He would therefore ask the right lion. Gentleman to show whether there was any difference in principle between the Establishment by law which had been asserted by Lord Mansfield to exist in the case of Nonconformists and the Establishment by law of the Church. He contended that the principle was similar.
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. GEORGE RUSSELL,)said, the hon. Member had made a speech of much erudition. His speech came to this, that the Dissenting communities enjoyed a certain amount of privilege, protection, and, in some sense of the word, Endowment, under the law; that he was not prepared to dispute, but it did not amount to what was commonly understood by Establishment. What the question came to was, what was the weight to be attached to the

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  word "Established"? What was the sense in which the word was generally applied? The word "Establishment" primarily conveyed three points the first was the maintenance of the Bishops in the House of Lords as the representatives of the interests of the Church in the Legislature; the second, the coercive jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts; and the third, the subjection of the Church in ecclesiastical matters to a secular body like Parliament. There was a fourth leading point, which was controversial and disputable. The noble Lord the Member for Rochester speaking earlier in the evening said that confusion existed in the minds of hon. Members who supported the Bill as to the right of private patronage. The noble Lord said it was quoted as an instance of Establishment when it should really be quoted as an instance of Endowment. But the right of private patronage really appertained as much to Establishment as to Endowment. It was difficult to conceive of a purely voluntary religious society, in which a private individual—a private and secular Member of the body—had the right to appoint a pastor to a parish.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: It is done under Disestablishment in Ireland.
  *MR. GEORGE RUSSELLsaid, if that were so, which he very much doubted, he would fall back upon his three points—the existence of the Bishops in the House of Lords, the coercive jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts, and the subjection of the Church to Parliament. In those respects the word "Establishment" was, in their opinion, commonly understood; and, holding that view, they thought it would convey a false sense and meaning to say that the Church should remain established so far as the Nonconformist bodies were established, when those bodies were not, in regard to the points he had enumerated, established at all. The Government also held that, when persons voluntarily entered into the membership of a non-Established Church, they became bound
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  by contract to observe the laws and regulations of the Church, which could be enforced by reference to a secular legal tribunal. The privilege of the exemption of the Churches from rating was secured by the Act of William IV., which applied to all places set apart for the exclusive use of Divine worship. For those reasons the Government should decline to accept the Amendment.
  *SIR RICHARD WEBSTERthanked the Under Secretary for the Home Department for his speech which he was sorry had not been delivered earlier in the evening, for it brought out more clearly the justness of their complaint as to the vagueness of the words "Establishment" and "Disestablishment." The hon. Gentleman laid down four conditions which prevented him from accepting an Amendment which would extend to the Church of England in Wales some of the privileges enjoyed by Nonconformist bodies. Those were—that "Establishment" covered the existence of the Bishops in the House of Lords, the coercive jurisdiction of the ecclesiastical courts, the subjection of the Church to Parliament; and the hon. Gentleman also thought the word involved the question of patronage. But it was an extraordinary comment on the speech of the hon. Member that the Bill, so far from relying on the word "Establishment," had special provisions dealing with those four points. The Bishops were dealt with by Clause 2, the coercive jurisdiction by Clause 4, the subjection of the Church by the same Clause, and patronage by Clause 1. Therefore the argument that some vagueness would be attached to the use of the word "Establishment," as proposed by the Amendment, fell to the ground. But he did not want to argue the question on that ground. He thought they were entitled to ask whether the Government intended that the same privileges should be given to the Church disestablished as were now given to Nonconformist bodies? Were they to distinctly understand that

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  churches were to be exempted from rating?
  MR. ASQUITH: That is already provided for.
  *SIR RICHARD WEBSTERsaid the matter should be made clear. But there were other matters, such as keeping open doors and protection from disturbance, which would have to be dealt with by legislation; and he thought it would be found absolutely necessary to restore to the Disestablished Church in Wales the marriage law in some shape or other. They had always protested against the suggestion that Establishment by law was a term that could only be applied to the Church of England. There were instances in which the status and position of Nonconformist chapels and churches and the privileges given to them by law were so akin to what were included in the words Establishment and Endowment that they might be properly treated as Establishment and Endowment. They thought that an Amendment of this kind was necessary to make it clear that to the Established Church and to the Disestablished Church the Government were going to extend the same privileges in rating and other matters as were extended to other denominations. What they desired was, that the Church should not be put in a worse condition either from the point of view of the protection of their endowments or the protection of their privileges than were the Churches of the Nonconformist bodies.
  MR. ASQUITHremarked, that after the speech of the hon. and learned Member he began to doubt whether there was, such a thing as an Established Church at all. One thing that was clear was that one Party was in favour of a Disestablished Church and the other Party in favour of maintaining something they called Establishment; but if, as might be supposed from the hon. and learned Gentleman's speech, there were only these fine and almost imperceptible gradations between one religious sect and another, why had so much passion and
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  controversial energy been imported into the discussion? He entirely associated himself with everything that had been said by the Under Secretary. They considered the Establishment of the Church of England, so far as it was dealt with by this Bill, to be that series or collection of incidents, some of privileges, some of disabilities, conferred and enforced by law which it possessed alone, and which was not common to any other religious sect, and the object of the Bill was to take away from the Church of England, so far as it was established in Wales and Monmouthshire, those incidents, one and all, but in all other respects to leave it on precisely the same footing, both as regarded privileges, and, if there were such cases, disabilities, as any other religious denomination. [Sir RICHARD WEBSTER:
  "Why not accept the Amendment?"] They could not accept the Amendment because it used wholly inappropriate language to describe the other religious denominations. That which distinguished the Church from other religious denominations was what they understood by the word Establishment, and to say that the Church was only to be Disestablished to the extent to which other denominations were Disestablished was to use words in a totally different sense to what was their real meaning. He was of opinion that the Bill as drawn would have the effect of leaving the Disestablished Church in Wales in possession of all the privileges and exemptions of any other religious community, and, if in the course of discussion it could be pointed out that privileges were possessed by other denominations which would not be effectively conferred on the Disestablished Church by this Bill, on the part of the Government he would undertake to see that provision was made for such cases, and that exact equality was established between the Disestablished Church and other religious bodies.
  VISCOUNT CRANBORNEobserved that the right hon. Gentleman had stated that what was meant by Establishment

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  was the possession of privileges which the Church of England enjoyed alone. The question was, What was its legal interpretation? He had been accustomed to find what were the definitions of the various terms used in Acts of Parliament, either universally agreed upon or defined in the Acts themselves, but in the interpretation clause of this Bill, he saw no definition of what was meant by Establishment. The right hon. Gentleman had refused again and again to say what lie meant by Establishment. This was a matter of legal interpretation, and he submitted that it was absurd to expect the House of Commons to be satisfied with the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman. The Acts of Parliament cited by his hon. Friend supported the contention. One of the most important was that which exempted chapels from rates. The Under Secretary said that the same Act of Parliament which exempted chapels from rates exempted churches. That was no doubt so according to the existing law; but when they declared that Establishment was to come to an end under the Act which the Committee were now engaged in passing—if it was not too extravagant a phrase—that would supersede the old Act of Parliament and would repeal it so far as the Church of England was concerned. What made it additionally necessary that they should have some clear idea of the meaning of their terms was that it appeared from the Debate there was a great difference of opinion on the part, of the Government as to what the Establishment consisted of. The Under Secretary, from his statement about private patronage, evidently did not know what Establishment meant. It was preposterous that when they were asking that the Church of England should be placed in no worse position than Nonconformist bodies, the Government should resist what was obviously just and fair. The Home Secretary said that if it appeared in the course of the discussion that the Church of England
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  would be worse off than the Nonconformist bodies, he would consider the point. But that had been pointed out in arguments which were left absolutely untouched; and, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman was called upon at once to fulfil that which he had declared his intention to be.
  MR. W. AMBROSE,repeating the substance of the statement of the Secretary of State for the Home Department, that the object of the Bill was to place the disestablished Church in the same position in regard to temporalities as other religious bodies, said it constituted the strongest argument in favour of the Amendment, because it was merely carrying out the declaration of the right hon. Gentleman. If the object of the right hon. Gentleman was to equalise the position of the Churches, why not at once accept the Amendment instead of indulging in the vaguest possible language. The right hon. Gentleman threw on the Committee the responsibility of saying what were the Acts for regulating the Church, and he left altogether untouched the point at issue. The Home Secretary said, that he was not aware that, if the Bill passed as it stood, there would be any difference between the position of the Church and the position of any Dissenting community. But in this very clause it was provided that, after the passing of the Act, no person should be appointed by Her Majesty, or any person, by virtue of any existing right of patronage, to any ecclesiastical office in, or connected with, the Church in Wales. Would that, or a similar provision, apply to Dissenting bodies? Was it intended that after the massing of the Act the trustees of a Nonconformist Chapel, with whom the nomination of ministers rested, should cease to have the right to appoint ministers? If there was no such intention, there certainly would be a difference between, the treatment of the Church and the treatment of Nonconformist bodies. The effect of the measure would not be

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  equality, but inequality, as between the Church and other religious denominations. Let the Home Secretary put into the Schedule of the Bill the Acts of Parliament which he mentioned in the Second Reading. Then the judges would have something to guide them when interpreting the Act. But if the right hon. Gentleman would not consent to do that, an Amendment like that now under consideration was absolutely necessary to safeguard the rights of the Church.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, that he did not rise to add any controversial matter to the interesting Debate which they had just heard, but rather to ask the Government to put a conclusion to it by agreeing to some words which would meet what they, together with the Opposition, thought to be the necessities of the case. The Home Secretary's objection to the Amendment was, that if they introduced the words proposed by his hon. Friend, the technical term "Establishment," would be used in two different meanings in the same place, and that this would lead to difficulties in the interpretation of the measure. But the right hon. Gentleman agreed absolutely with the substance of his hon. Friend's contention, and the contention of his noble Friend and others. The right hon. Gentleman said that he did not desire to put the Disestablished Church in Wales, if it should be disestablished, in any worse position than that of any Nonconformist body at present existing, and that if any case should be pointed out in which the phraseology of the measure would produce any evil of that kind, he would be prepared to rectify it. He accepted that declaration from the right hon. Gentleman in the spirit in which he was sure it was offered; but there was this difficulty connected with it—that it threw upon the Opposition the burden of pointing out, seriatim and in detail, the points in respect of which the Church might suffer under this Bill as compared with Nonconformist bodies. What they desired was, that some general words
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  should be introduced, either in this or some subsequent clause, which would make it perfectly certain that the intention of the Government, which they had expressed that night, and for which he thanked them, would be fully carried out. It was hardly right to require of the Opposition that they should enumerate the particular Statutes of the last 150 years which they thought ought to apply to the Disestablished Church. What was wanted was, some general expression by which all danger of injustice would be absolutely precluded. If the right hon. Gentleman could give them a pledge that, with the help of the Government draughtsman, he would introduce words which would insure that the Disestablished Church in Wales would be in no worse position than other religious bodies in that part of the kingdom, the main object of his hon. Friends who supported this Amendment would be attained. If the Government, on the other hand, sought to throw on the Opposition the onus of finding out every loophole which might be left in the drafting of the Bill, and of remedying every casual injustice that accident might have produced, that was a position in which he thought they ought not to be placed. He hoped, however, the Government would give the assurance asked for, which would not in the least take them beyond anything they had avowed in the House.
  MR. ASQUITHsaid, he had no hesitation in responding to the right hon. Gentleman's appeal, and in repeating what he had said before, namely, that it was the intention of the Government that the Disestablished Church should be in precisely as good a position in all respects as regarded legal privilege or exception as every other religious community in the country. The right hon. Gentleman had quite correctly apprehended that he objected to the form of words suggested, and he might add that, if words were introduced for the purpose, they would come more appropriately at a later stage of the Bill, when some general

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  words providing that in all respects as regarded legal privilege and exception the Established Church should stand in the same position as all other religious communities. He hoped they would be able to agree to some general words sufficiently wide in their scope to meet the purpose which both the right hon. Gentleman and others had in view.
  *MR. W. E. M. TOMLlNSONsaid, it was a very valuable declaration on the part of the right hon. Gentleman that he did not intend the Church to be in an unfair position as compared with other religious bodies. The fact, however, would be brought before him that, in one important respect, the Bill did put the Church in an unfair position, because the Bishops and Clergy were expressly prohibited by the Bill from maintaining their ancient association with the province of Canterbury.
  *MR. GRIFFITH-BOSCAWENsaid, that after the declaration of the right hon. Gentleman he would ask leave to withdraw the Amendment. He hoped, however, that the right hon. Gentleman intended to include the privilege granted to Dissenters by the Dissenting Chapels Act of 1844.
  Amendment by leave withdrawn.
  MR. PERCY THORNTONmoved to insert after "Wales'' the words—
  "Except that part of Pembrokeshire south of and including Haverford west."
  He said he wished to point out the fact that the Home Secretary had made his Bill depend chiefly upon the principle of nationality; and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would allow him to bring to his attention some words he used during the Debate on the Second Reading of the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman said—
  "The home of a people is not a mere geographical question. I know this is called Separatism. It is separatism to recognise that there are such things as separate nationalities the combination of which goes to form the United Kingdom, of which we all are a part.
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  We take a different view. We believe that the best way of recognising and consolidating the true union of the kingdom as a whole is to recognise, and within limits of imperial unity to defer to those separate national sentiments which have their root in the history of the past, and which form the salt of the life of our local communities. In that sense I assert that the Welsh people are a nation."
  Now he would undertake before he sat down to prove—firstly, that the portion of Wales he desired to eliminate from the scope of this Bill, was a different nationality from the other portions of the Principality. He was quite sure, judging from that eloquent speech the right hon. Gentleman delivered on the Second Reading of the Bill, the Home Secretary was very well informed as regarded South Pembrokeshire. The right hon. Gentleman knew well that when Henry I. found the efforts of his predecessors to conquer Wales had not been successful, he was led to plant a colony of the Flemish in Wales. But he did not desire to go further into the historical part of the subject, especially as there were so many in the House who were perfectly familiar with the details of the matter. He saw the hon. Member for Pembrokeshire in his place, and that hon. Gentleman would no doubt enlighten them on the point. He was prepared to admit he would not be justified in moving this Amendment if it was merely an historical legend or fact he had to recall, and if he were not able to prove by communication with the people who lived in the district at this moment that the inhabitants were averse to the measure of Her Majesty's Government. He had for years been familiar with that part of Pembrokeshire which stretched from Ten by to Milford Haven, some 19 miles, and he might add that the peninsula, which was marked in the Atlantic by St. David's Head, was a portion of Pembrokeshire to which no railway went, but which, nevertheless, was a very interesting district. [Cries of "Agreed."] He was not a person to undertake to perform a task and not bring it to a conclusion, whatever interruption he might

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  be subjected to. He had been in communication with various clergymen who inhabited this peninsula, and they had desired him to say, in answer to remarks made by the hon. Member for Pembrokeshire on the Second Reading of the Bill, that the signatures to the Petitions, which were sent to the hon. Gentleman and other hon. Members, were gained by coercion and other unjust means. There was a Church Committee in every parish, and the result of that Committee's exertions was, that about one-half of the adult residents signed a Petition in favour of the Bill. He could speak with personal knowledge of one particular parish. There about 86 men signed out of a total of 168; but the general opinion in the parish was that, if the true view of the people could be ascertained, it would be found that the feeling in favour of keeping the Church established would be represented by the proportion of ten to one. He desired to draw attention to a most remarkable return of the burials in the churchyards in the Deanery of Castle Martin, which, roughly speaking, covered the very ground of which he was speaking. The result of the statistics was thus summed up:—
  "From the foregoing figures it would appear that in seventeen districts which are purely rural the total number of burials taken by the clergy were 1,096 as against nine only taken by Nonconformist ministers. In many instances, however, there is evidence to prove that the burials, although taken by the clergy, were those of Nonconformists, the explanation being that, notwithstanding their dissent from the doctrines of the Established Church, they nevertheless prefer that they themselves and their friends should, when they depart this life, be laid to rest according to the rites of that Church. In Monkton, which adjoins and is indeed a suburb of Pembroke, the burials taken by Nonconformist ministers for the period above mentioned (1880 to 1894) numbered only 276 as against 19 taken by the Clergy, and it is safe to assume that some of these latter were also Nonconformists. In Pembroke proper the proportion is naturally somewhat larger."
  That was a most remarkable document. He was perfectly aware the right hon. Baronet the Member for Denbighshire (Sir G. O. Morgan) had said they must not expect to see any great result in
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  Wales from the Act; but he doubted whether the right hon. Gentleman had any idea that in any part of the Principality it was possible that the people themselves desired to be buried in the ancient graveyards of the Church. He knew, too, he should be met with the objection that Pembrokeshire returned a Liberal (Mr. Rees Davies). On that point he had only to say that though the hon. Member might have got valid and useful support from that part of Pembrokeshire he wished to see eliminated from the Bill, the hon. Member did not get his majority from it; he got his majority from Fish guard and other northern portions of the constituency. He was persuaded that the people in Pembrokeshire, south of and including Haverford west, were faithful to the ancient Church; and he imagined that the Home Secretary would find some difficulty in giving a reason why, if he allowed what he believed to be ecclesiastical betterment to the Celtic population in Wales, he should refuse worsement in the case of the Flemish portion of the community.
  Amendment proposed in page 1, line 8, after the word "Wales" to insert the words:—
  "Except that part of Pembrokeshire south of and including Haverford west."—(Mr. Thornton.)
  *MR. C. F. EGERTON ALLENsaid, he was sorry to stand between the Committee and his hon. Friend the Member for Pembrokeshire, but he knew the Castlemartin district of Pembrokeshire very well. He was brought up in the district, and knew almost every field in it. It was, therefore, within his knowledge that, if in the rural parishes there Nonconformity was not as strong as it was in other parts of Pembrokeshire, it was because those parishes were in the hands of very large landowners. ["Oh, oh."] Yes, he formerly lived on the estate of the largest landowner. That gentleman owned six parishes in the Castlemartin rural

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  deanery, and he did not allow Nonconformist places of worship to be built on his estate; and that was how it came about that there were so many more burials in that part of Pembrokeshire in the grounds of the Church than in the lands adjoining Nonconformist places of worship. Wherever Nonconformity had a fair chance of establishing itself, it was as strong in Pembrokeshire as in any other part of Wales. It was true that in South Pembroke the people did not speak Welsh, and were not of Welsh descent, but their Nonconformity was just as strong. In some of the towns, such as Pembroke and Pembroke Dock, the Nonconformist chapels greatly outnumbered the churches. In the advertisements of a local paper at Pembroke Dock, he counted advertisements of 11 chapels against those of three churches, and of those three one was the Dockyard Church. He knew that Nonconformist preachers had endeavoured to institute services in farmhouses in the rural districts, but they had been discouraged by the squires to whom the established clergy complained. Where leases were extremely uncommon, the people had to pay attention to the agents' demands, and the squires did not care about Nonconformist services being held on their estates. In the Urban district of Ten by there were four large Nonconformist chapels on one hand, and on the other, the parish church and a room where services were held. The hon. Member said that the Castlemartin district was a solitary district. It was not more solitary than any other agricultural district; and there was a railway from Ten by to Pembroke. In Pembroke and Pembroke Dock the enthusiasm for Disestablishment was equal to that in Fish guard, Narberth and Haverford West, and the boroughs in the northern part of the county. He had no hesitation in telling the House, from a knowledge as long as his life, that although in the rural parts of the Castlemartin Hundred, where large landowners had their estates, there were few Nonconformist chapels, yet in the Urban part there were as many Nonconformists as in the northern part of the constituency.
  *MR. REES DAVIESsaid, that the House would prefer to accept the testimony of his hon. Friend and himself, who had lived
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  in Pembrokeshire all their lives, than that of the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Thornton). He could support the statement made by his hon. Friend that the whole county of Pembroke was strongly in favour of this Bill. The Northern part of the county was indeed Welsh speaking, while the Southern was English-speaking; yet the whole county had returned him by a substantial majority, and the question of all others before the electors was Disestablishment. He was prepared to substantiate what he had said as to the way in which signatures to Petitions had been obtained. The county of Pembroke as a whole contained an overwhelming majority of Nonconformists, and he should be wanting in his duty to them if he did not protest against the highly ridiculous suggestions of the hon. Member—which savoured of separatism—to dissociate one portion of the county from the benefits of the Bill.
  MR. THORNTONsaid, no answer had been received from the Government, and he pressed for one.
  MR. ASQUITH: I will not enter into the question as to the exact state of opinion in the part of the county referred to. As far as the Government are concerned, we cannot in any case accept so erroneous a principle as that a small local majority—even if there be one—is an argument for excluding the district which that majority represents from the operations of the Bill. [Opposition cries of "Oh!"]
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR: The right hon. Gentleman seems quite incapable of dealing with the apportionment of public opinion on the question to which allusion has been made. But I thought the whole principle of the Government turned on local feeling. I thought it was to that that they pinned their colours, and that if there were a principle in the Bill, that was it. But the Home Secretary comes down, and, with an air of virtue, says the one thing that the Government cannot be expected to attach any weight to is the fact that there should be a local majority against the provisions of their Bill. If this Government is not a Government dependent on local majorities, what is it? A more cruel, cold-blooded cut from a parricidal hand than the speech of the Home Secretary has just made I never knew.

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  After that declaration I hope my hon. Friend will persist in his Amendment.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 161; Noes 193.—(Division List No. 58.)
  Progress reported.

  THE CRUELTY TO ANIMALS (SCOTLAND) ACT (1850) AMENDMENT BILL.
  Read 2°.

  LAND TRANSFER BILL (LORDS.).
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT REID,)THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir ROBERT REID, Dumfries) moved the Second Reading of this Bill, stating that it was the intention of the Government to send it before a Select Committee.
  Bill read 2°, and referred to Select Committee.

  INTOXICATING LIQUOR TRAFFIC (LOCAL CONTROL) BILL.
  On the Order for Second Reading of this Bill,
  MR. G. C. T. BARTLEYasked when the Government intended to take this Bill?
  THE PATRONAGE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. THOMAS ELLIS,)said, the Bill had been put down a fortnight ahead and the Chancellor of the Exchequer would give full notice.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, he would ask on Thursday as to the date.

  BURGH LAND TAX (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  Considered in Committee, and reported without Amendment.
  MR. J. H. DALZIELasked, in view of the progress just made, that the further stage of the Bill be deferred for a short time.
  SIR JOHN HIBBERTassented.

  WEST HIGHLAND RAILWAY (GUARANTEE).
  Resolution considered.
  (In the Committee.)
  MR. TOMLINSONasked what the resolution was about.
  SIR JOHN HIBBERTexplained that it was to carry out a promise made by the late Government.
  MR. CONYBEAREdesired to know under what circumstances the late Government guaranteed the money of the State for the purpose of this railway.
  MR. DALZIELthought that for Scotch Bills of an important character, the Government should find time in the ordinary way, and should not bring them on after Twelve o'clock at night.
  SIR JOHN HIBBERTexplained that this was not a Bill, but a Resolution upon which to base a Bill.
  MR. BARTLEYasked whether they might take it that time would be given for discussion and explanation after the Bill had been brought in?
  SIR JOHN HIBBERT: Certainly. Resolved,—That it is expedient to authorise the Treasury to guarantee the interest, at the rate of three per cent., on £260,000 of the capital of the West Highland Railway Company, and to pay a sum of money, not exceeding £30,000, to that company; and to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, and if those moneys are insufficient, out of the Consolidated Fund, of such sums as may be necessary for those purposes.—(Sir John Hibbert.)
  Resolution to be reported this day.

  MARKET GARDENERS' COMPENSATION BILL.
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed, on consideration, as amended [29th April]:
  And which Amendment was, in page 1, line 12, to leave out the words "it is agreed in writing that,"—(Mr. Lambert.)
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  An Amendment made.
  Bill read 3° and passed.
  House adjourned at Half-past Twelve o' clock

Preamble
Lord HOPETOUN took the oath and subscribed the roll of Parliament.
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.
The following Bills were presented by LORD PLAYFAIR, and read 1a:—
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (NO. 4) BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to a portion of the parish of Kensington St. Mary Abbotts, and to the St. Olave and Strand Districts, in the County of London. [No. 94.]
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (NO. 5) BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Hoard of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to Bootle, New Windsor and Eton, Prescot, Salisbury, Southampton, and Windermere and District. [No. 95.]
ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDER (NO. 6) BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Board of Trade under the Electric Lighting Acts, 1882 and 1888, relating to Liverpool. [No. 96.]
TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (NO. 1) BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Tramways Act, 1870, relating to City of Gloucester Tramways, London United Tramways, and Somerton, Keinton Mandeville, and Castle Cary Tramways. [No. 97.]
TRAMWAYS ORDERS CONFIRMATION (NO. 2) BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under the Tramways Act, 1870, relating to Hartlepool Tramways, Hartlepool Electric Tramways, Newcastle-upon-Tyne Corporation Tramways, and Wigan and District Tramways. [No. 98.]
MUSEUMS AND GYMNASIUMS AMENDMENT BILL. [H.L.]
A Bill to amend the Museums and Gymnasiums Act, 1891, and for other purposes—was presented by the Lord Chaworth (E. Meath); read 1a and to be printed. [No. 99.]

SOUTH AFRICAN AFFAIRS.
*LORD KNUTSFORDbegged to ask the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for the Colonies a question, of which he had given private notice. It was with reference to the action recently taken by the Government in annexing the territories of the chiefs Sambaan, Umbegesa and Mdhlaleni. He need hardly say he did not intend to argue the question now, but he thought it fair to say that, after reading the statement of the Under Secretary for the Colonies last week in the other House, and assuming the statement to be correct, that there were serious troubles and difficulties arising in those territories; and having also carefully re-read the Papers that had already been presented to Parliament, referring to the territories of those chiefs—he thought that the Government could hardly have acted otherwise than they had done in annexing those territories. But, as the matter had created not only considerable interest here, but very considerable interest in South Africa, as was naturally to be expected; and as the President of the South African Republic had entered a strong protest, if the newspapers were to be believed, against the action of Her Majesty's Government—he thought it would be very desirable, in the interest of all parties, that Papers upon the question should be presented to Parliament as soon as convenient. He did not observe that the Under Secretary of State promised that Papers would be presented, and for that reason he desired to ask the question of the noble Marquess. In making the request for Papers, he suggested that the noble Marquess should begin the new Papers by reprinting the despatch of Sir Charles Mitchell, of September 1889, which covered a very able and exhaustive report by a Mr. Saunders upon these very territories, and the desires of the chiefs, and also upon their relations with Tongaland, the Transvaal, and Zululand. It was desirable it should be

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at once seen that before Mr. Saunders, who thoroughly understood the case, saw both Umbegesa and Sambaan, they had, under the influence of a very notorious person—a Mr. Ferreira—signed a paper saying they desired to come under the South African Republic; but when Mr. Saunders examined them they said they had signed the paper under the influence of Mr. Ferreira, not knowing the full intention of the paper, and that they desired to come under Her Majesty. Both the despatch and the report had, it was true, been printed in the Paper presented on the affairs of Swaziland and Tongaland in 1890; but he thought it would be useful to reprint them. He had also to ask the noble Marquess, if he could conveniently state now, whether the annexation of the two territories was in full accordance with the views of Sir Henry Loch, and also whether they were to be included in Zululand or dealt with separately.
*THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (the Marquess of RIPON): I am very glad my noble friend's question affords me an opportunity of making a short statement in reference to the matter to which the noble Lord has referred. In the first place, I may say the Government will be very happy to lay Papers on the Table at as early a period as possible, and I hope that may not be long delayed; and I will carefully consider the suggestion of my noble Friend that Sir Charles Mitchell's despatch and Mr. Saunders' report should be laid on the Table. I need not say with how much satisfaction I have learned that, so far as my noble Friend has been able to form a judgment at present, he thinks the step taken by Her Majesty's Government is one which they were obliged under the circumstances to take, and I have also great satisfaction in saying that throughout the steps which we have adopted we have had the full agreement of Sir Henry Loch. As I have mentioned Sir Henry Loch's name, perhaps you will allow me to express here in public the deep sense the Government feel of the great services which, during a long public life, Sir Henry Loch has rendered. These services have been of the very highest value, and I can truly say that nobody can recognise them more
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entirely and fully than I do on my own behalf and on behalf of my colleagues. My noble Friend knows very well the exact position of these little territories lying to the east of Swaziland to which his question relates. The territories of Umbegesa and Zambaan, and of a widow chief whose name I will not attempt to pronounce, have always been held to be within what is now called the sphere of influence of Her Majesty's Government. Successive Governments have repeatedly said that that was the case. The last occasion on which a public announcement was made was in the House of Commons, in the month of February, by my hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies. Under the second article of the Convention of London, 1884, the South African Republic bound themselves to do their utmost to prevent encroachments by their citizens upon the native States to the east and west of their territory; and they are also bound, under the fourth article of the Convention of London, not to make any treaties with native States as well as with other States without laying them before Her Majesty's Government for their approval. But in spite of these obligations there has been for a considerable number of years a state of things upon that frontier which is highly undesirable. We are all aware that from time to time in Africa, and not in Africa alone, attempts are made to raid thinly populated and little civilised States by States of greater power and civilisation. That process is called in colonial slang "jumping" these States. It has been the practice in South Africa. It was tried in Bechuanaland and it was checked. It was tried in what is called the little Republic, the small slice taken out of Swaziland at that time, and it was there successful. Attempts have been made now for a considerable time to carry on the same process with respect to the territory of Zambaan and the other territories of which I have been speaking; and now a Mr. Van Oordt, who is, I believe, in some degree the representative of Mr. Ferrara, has even attempted to claim jurisdiction within these States, and I think to levy taxes. Her Majesty's Government, successive Governments, have made strong remonstrances upon this subject to the South African Republic. They were made in

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the time of our predecessors and they have been made by us. The latest of these remonstrances were made last year by General Cameron, who was administering the Cape Government in August 1894, and by Sir Henry Loch, under the direction of Her Majesty's Government in December 1894. When your Lordships see Sir Henry Loch's letter of December 17 last, you will see that he spoke on that occasion of these attempts in the plainest possible terms, urging the obligations of the South African Republic, and the necessity for putting an end to these illegitimate proceedings. In spite of these remonstrances, however, this state of things still continued, and having made our last remonstrance in December 1894, we learnt in March of the present year that Mr. Van Oordt's attempts to exercise jurisdiction were being continued and that the state of things was in no way improved, but in some respects aggravated. It therefore became our duty to consider what we should do in these circumstances. If a check had been put on the proceedings of Mr. Van Oordt by the Transvaal Government, if they had been able to do so, we might have been contented to leave the status quo alone, at all events for a time. But as the South African Government were not able to control Mr. Van Oordt, we had to consider what was right for us to do; because, whatever may be the right method of dealing with these little States, the method of raiding or "jumping," so as to oust the British Government from their rights in regard to the States, is not a method which any British Government can tolerate. I do not doubt that the Transvaal Government attempted to fulfil their obligations, but they were unable to do so; and then the only course open to us was to establish within these small States a system of firm and efficient administration, sufficient to put a stop to these illegitimate proceedings. That is precisely the step which we have taken. So far from thinking that we have acted too soon, I can quite understand some persons saying that the present and preceding Governments have been too patient. I do not think so. I think that the British Government has been quite right to exercise great patience in regard to this matter. But after all
482
that has passed—the numerous remonstrances that have been made, and the inability of the South African Republic to control these lawless persons—I think the time has come, if the British sphere of influence is not to be rendered altogether nugatory, when we are bound to enforce our rights. That is the whole case. I see it stated in some quarters in South Africa that we have acted in an unfriendly manner to the South African Republic. I do not take that view at all. One of the main objects of the steps Which we have taken is to put an end to a state of things which must very soon have engendered the greatest difficulty and troubles with the South African Republic. Part of this system of raiding, or "jumping," is to obtain administrative concessions. These concessions are obtained by irresponsible persons like Mr. Ferreira and Mr. Van Oordt, and are often passed on to the South African or some other Government, who then claim rights under them. Therefore, if this state of things were to continue, it would be inevitable, particularly in the present state of affairs in South Africa, that before long we should be landed in a still more complicated position, which might have seriously affected our relations with the South African Republic. The desire of Her Majesty's Government is to maintain the most friendly relations with the Government of the South African Republic, and it is greatly to the interest of both countries that those friendly relations should be maintained. There are some, perhaps, who do not take that view, but I am not one of them; and I most earnestly desire the maintenance of those relations. Further, I would point out that the step which we have taken cannot, and, of course, does not affect any existing conventions between us and the South African Republic. They remain just as they were, and are totally independent of any action such as has been adopted by us on the present occasion. Our object has been to secure the rights of the British Government against the unlawful acts of irresponsible persons, and to put an end to a system the continued existence of which would have been seriously detrimental to the cordial relations of the British and South African Governments.

LONDON UNIVERSITY.
LORD PLAYFAIRgave notice that on Thursday next he should, on behalf of the Government, introduce a Bill for reconstituting the University of London.
MARINE INSURANCE BILL [H.L.]
A Bill for codifying the Law relating to Marine Insurance—was presented by the Lord Chancellor; read la; and to be printed.—[No. 100.]
TRAMWAYS (IBELAND) (NO. 2) BILL.
Read la; and to be printed.—[No. 101.]

SEA FISHERIES REGULATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.
* On Motion of LORD TWEEDMOUTH to go into Committee on this Bill,
*THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that he had such large and extensive objections to this Bill that he quite despaired of any Amendment being carried in Committee of the whole House which would reconcile him to its provisions. He was therefore under the necessity of stating his objections at this stage. Although by name this was a Scotch Bill, he hoped it would not be supposed that it affected Scotland only, and that it involved no important principles. To a large extent the Bill immediately affected the interests of English fishermen, and besides that, it involved principles which, if established in Scotland, would be extended to England. What was the history of this Bill? Last year a Scotch Fishery Bill was introduced by the Government in the House of Commons, and carried through that House in a manner which was certainly unusual. He was not using too harsh an expression when he said that the Bill was smuggled through at 1 o'clock in the morning, with very little notice to the interests concerned. The principle of that Bill was that local bodies interested in one particular industry were to be empowered to tax all their neighbours for the benefit of that industry, without the consent of the representative bodies. That proposal was so monstrous that it really seemed incredible, and directly the Bill came to the House of Lords representations against the Bill were sent to several Scotch Peers from some of the most Radical constituencies in Scotland. The City of Aberdeen took arms against the Bill, and all the towns when they
484
came to understand the measure declared it to be impossible, and that local bodies, composed largely of fishermen, could not be allowed to impose a rate up to 3d. in the pound on every human being in Scotland simply at their own will and pleasure, except, perhaps, for the consent of the Secretary for Scotland. He came up to town specially to oppose the Bill, which was so knocked about in the House of Lords that the Government did not proceed with it. The House of Lords had last session performed no service which was more appreciated in Scotland than the defeat of this Bill, which excited great discontent. Then the Government now came forward with another Bill introduced in the House of Lords. That Bill was tainted with the same vicious spirit, and Lord Camperdown brought in a rival Bill. On the understanding of both Parties, these Bills were referred to a Select Committee. This method of procedure placed independent Members of the House, and the House as a whole, at a great disadvantage. When it was understood that Bills of this kind were to be referred to a Select Committee, the Debate on the Second Reading was always scamped. Noble Lords, not conversant with the subject, trusted to its being thrashed out in Committee, and the principles involved were not adequately debated. Then, in the Select Committee, the Members were hampered by feeling that the principle of the Bill had been consented to by the House. In those circumstances the probability was that the Bill came out of the Committee as a hash approved of by no Party. This was what had happened in the present case. The Bill was bad in the beginning; but the Committee did as much as they could to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. He maintained that this was not a satisfactory mode of legislating, and that the passing of this Bill would not be creditable to their Lordships' legislative capacity. He had heard that the Bill had the bottom knocked out of it, and that its teeth were drawn, which he believed was the case; but still there was a great deal left that was exceedingly objectionable. He did not himself understand

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why the noble Lord went on with the Bill, for, as he understood, there was very little chance of passing it through the other House of Parliament. He wished, however, to expose the vicious principle of the Bill. It dealt mainly with three subjects—the Constitution of I the Central Fishery Board; the setting up, for the first time, of local fishery districts; and, third, the power to be given to these district boards. He did not know why the Government had come to the conclusion that the Central Fishery Board in Edinburgh was a badly constituted body and required a complete change, or, as it was called, a reform. Soon after the union of the Parliaments various boards were started—Scotland being in a very poor economic condition—in order to establish new industries in Scotland. There was one called the Board of Manufacturers. He had the honour, like many other Scotch peers, to belong to it, but the members generally never met by any chance. The Board, however, still went on.
*THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, he was a Member of the Board, and went there constantly.
*THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, his noble Friend happened to live near Edinburgh. The Fishery Board was a department of the larger Board. It had been long presided over by an uncle of the Prime Minister, and under him no complaint of inefficiency had ever been heard. Some 12 years ago the Government of the day thought it well to put an end to the old Board and start a new one, and this was constituted in this way:—There was a chairman and three sheriffs of Scotch counties, who were supposed to represent the fish-eating public as distinct from the fish-catching public. Then there was a gentleman from Peterhead, a fish-curer on a large scale, and there were two gentlemen about whom no one could discover anything, and then there was a scientific professor for instituting experiments. That was the Board which the noble Lord opposite thought ought to be knocked on the head. He did not know what the accusation was against the Board. He had never heard any very grave complaints, but if there were any complaints it was entirely the fault of the Government, in making the chairmanship a political job. It was well
486
known that the late chairman, Mr. Esslemont, was appointed so that he might get £800 a year as a faithful servant of his Party. He was not a man who had any authority with regard to fishery matters. The three sheriffs, he was told, never attended, so that the fish-eating public were not represented at all. Then there were two other gentlemen, and he believed they were appointed on political grounds. When Mr. Esslemont died, he understood a vigorous effort was made to secure an eminent man apart from politics, and one was recommended. The Government would not have it, and they again appointed a man who was purely a political partisan. As a result of this political jobbery they had the present Board, which, it was said, was impotent. Now, how were the Government going to reconstitute the Board? They proposed to reduce the number from nine to seven, and they provided that the Scotch Secretary should have the power to appoint four fishermen out of the seven. The noble Duke then proceeded to condemn the classification in the Bill as absolutely useless for the purpose. There would be no check whatever on the Secretary for Scotland if he were inclined for a job. The omissions in the Bill were so grave in this respect that he could not undertake to deal with them in Committee; the whole reconstruction of the Bill would be required. If there was to be any reform or change, in his opinion it should not lie in the direction of a reconstituted board. They ought to have a strong department responsible for the conduct of Scotch fisheries, which would consider the interests of the fish-eating as well as the fish-catching public. What was meant by a fishery district—a certain area of the coast on which it was convenient to them to fish for bait Not a bit of it. A district under this Bill meant an area, not of land, but of any part adjoining the ocean; so that a small burgh might apply to the Secretary for Scotland to create a "district," and this district might include any part of the sea adjoining the coast of Scotland. There was no limit at all.
TIHE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: As far as Norway?
*THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: Oh yes! as far as America.
THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (LORD TWEEDMOUTH): The powers of the district committees are confined strictly to the territorial waters.
*THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: I do not see that in the Bill. Clause 5 provides that on the application of a county council or town council the Secretary for Scotland might from time to time create a sea-fishery district, including "any part of the sea adjoining Scotland."
*LORD TWEEDMOUTH: That is, within the territorial waters.
*THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that the Bill did not say so, and he doubted whether it was a legal definition. There was a small police burgh on his property on the Firth of Clyde, consisting chiefly of villas for seaside bathers. That police burgh would have the power to apply to the Secretary for Scotland to be created, with the adjoining sea, a district, though there were towns like Greenock, Glasgow, and other places whose interests would be overridden. He had received a representation from the people of Dundee complaining that, as they read the Hill, some of the small villages near Aberdeen would have the power to override the city of Aberdeen. The fact was, that this Bill was mere detritus—reliquiœ diluvianœ—belonging to another Bill which had passed through Committee; and he thought that the Measure would need a great deal of amendment in Committee. The constitution of the district committees was really incredible. Half the district committee was to be composed of persons who were personally interested in the conduct of the various fishings. He should like to know on what evidence the Government thought it was a wise thing to give such large powers to persons engaged in a particular industry. In the Report of the Fishery Hoard of two years ago the qualifications of the fishermen to legislate for their brethren were described. It stated that fishermen as a rule seemed to have made up their minds that certain modes of fishing were injurious, and though the opinions of one centre were in flat contradiction to the opinions of another centre, they were always adhered to. This agreed with his own observation of fishermen. They were a very intelligent, and very brave set of men, with whom it was impossible not to sympathise, but the nature of the
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subject was so obscure that, except in the most superficial phenomena connected with their calling, they entertained the wildest theories about spawning and the breaking-up of shoals, and other subjects. It was a vicious principle to adopt. If they gave to local councils the power to appoint fishery boards, with adequate powers, they ought to be left with a free hand; let them choose the men whom they thought would contribute best to local legislation. He objected altogether to the whole principle on which these local authorities were to be constituted. Clause 10 of the Bill proposed to prohibit beam trawling within 18 miles of the coast. Three miles was the limit of the territorial waters; and, while our own fishermen were to be prohibited from using this efficient means of capture, the foreigner was to enjoy the privilege. He objected to this prohibition of trawling, because it was against the scientific and economic evidence in their possession. At one time he was a strong opponent of trawlers, mainly on the ground that beam trawling destroyed the spawn of the fish deposited at the bottom of the sea. But that objection had been got rid of by the curious scientific discovery made recently that the spawn of almost all our food fish, with the exception of the herring, were shed in the open waters of the sea. The Government, therefore, had no right to suppress one of our most important industries on fanciful notions of injury which had been disproved by scientific investigation. The beam trawl caught the most important of our food fish—turbot, plaice, and soles; and though it was true that a large number of immature fish were caught in the trawl, the same objection could be urged against the line fishermen. Why was this Bill brought in? In the exclusive interest of the line fishermen, and to the detriment of another kind of fishing on which immense sums of money had been expended. Here again it was politics, nothing but politics. The coast of Scotland was everywhere dotted with a large number of fishing villages. The population were all line fishermen, and they were also county voters. That was why their interests were being protected, and both parties in the State were plotting to get these votes, and they were willing to sacrifice the interests of

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the public in order to secure them. He was in favour of prohibition of beam trawling within the territorial limits, and he thought it was a reasonable thing that there should be a ring of protective water for the small line fishing. But to extend the prohibition of trawling to 18 miles beyond the coast seemed to him to be a monstrous invasion of the liberty of the subject; it was an invasion contrary to public policy, to scientific evidence, and to the interests of the public. These being the main provisions of the Bill, he submitted that it was not a Bill which their Lordships ought to proceed with. There was no hope of so altering and amending it in Committee of the Whole House as to make it a creditable piece of work. Although he did not intend to divide against going into Committee, as he wished to see what Amendments the noble Lord opposite would produce, he desired to give notice that he would move the rejection of the Bill on the Third Reading if no sufficient and satisfactory alterations were made in Committee. But even if he should fail then, he trusted that the observations he had made would do something effectual to damage the Bill in another place.
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, he was sure that their Lordships were all glad to welcome back the noble Duke after his recent indisposition. He appreciated the force and vigour of the noble Duke's speech, though it was somewhat difficult to follow it, as he principally presented the back of his head to the Treasury Bench the whole time he was speaking. The noble Duke began by taking great exception to the Bill presented in their Lordships' House last year, and especially because it had been hurried through the other House in a manner which caused great detriment to the interests of the parties concerned, who, he said had no notice. That assertion could not be supported by any evidence. On the contrary, Fishery Bills on the lines of that of last year had been before the House of Commons year after year, introduced by Governments of both Parties and by private Members, and the whole subject was well before the fishing interests and every Member who represented them. The noble Duke, instead of following the course of legislation, must have been buried all that time in one of his western
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islands, if he did not know that such was the case. The main provisions of this very Bill were taken from a measure passed for England under the conduct of the Party opposite, and from an Act which was passed for Scotland in 1889, also when the Party opposite were in Office. In those two measures the noble Duke would find, almost word for word, the very clauses and provisions which were to be found in the present Bill. The noble Duke took great exception to the power of rating given to the district committees last year; but at this very moment we had all round the coast of England district committees with powers of rating. He believed that there were as many as 17 of these committees in England, partly consisting of members of the fishing interest chosen by the Board of Trade, and partly consisting of members from the various Town and County Councils. Those committees had been very successful. They had worked admirably and produced the best results. So late as 1893 a Committee sat in the House of Commons to consider this and cognate questions, and he would quote from the Report of that Committee:—
"Your Committee would recall the fact that the Trawling Commission, in their Report in 1885, recommended the establishment of a central authority to supervise and control the fisheries of Great Britain, if not of the United Kingdom; or that, in the meantime, extended powers should he given to the Scotch Fishery Board, and that a similar Board with similar powers should be created for England. They further recommended that to these bodies there should be granted the necessary sums of money for the purpose of conducting scientific experiments and for collecting fishery statistics, and that adequate arrangements should be made for the establishment and maintenance of an efficient sea police under the control of the fishery authorities so constituted. Since the date of this Report extended powers have been granted to the Scotch Fishery Board, and district sea fishery committees have been established in England. At the present moment, therefore, while in England there are district sea fishery committee's, there is no Fishery Board; in Scotland there is a Fishery Board and there are no district sea fishery committees. Furthermore, the district fishery committees in England and the Fishery Board in Scotland both labour under one and the same disadvantage—that of being without any directly elected representative element. Your Committee would strongly urge that measures should be at once taken to introduce such a direct representative element into the English district sea fishery committees, and that an English Sea Fishery Board should be established in its turn, largely representative

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of the district sea fishery committees. Similarly, in Scotland, that directly representative district sea fishery committees should he instituted, and that the Scotch Fishery Board should he largely representative of the Scottish sea fishery committees."
That was the Report of only two years ago, and it was upon that Report that many of the provisions of this Bill were framed. The noble Duke began his criticism by taking objection to the proposed constitution of the Fishery Board, and treated the House to an interesting historical review of the Board in the past and to personal criticism of individual members of the Board; and he told the House that the three sheriffs represented the fish-eating public in Scotland. In what way?
*THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: Because they all eat very good dinners.
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, that might be so, but he would remind the noble Duke that a good many poor people made their dinners off fish alone, and were well able to judge of the fish they ate; and was it not a strong order that, out of a Board of nine members, three should be chosen simply because they were lawyers? The only real change now made was in knocking off two sheriffs, and the Board was left much the same as at present, except that there was a direction that four members should be representative of the various fishing interests of Scotland. He thought it best that these four men should be representative of the various fishing interests of Scotland; but he thought that, under the wide definition of the Bill as quoted by the noble Duke, any man holding a single share in a trawling company might be included in the "fishing interest." The noble Duke objected that district committees were improper bodies to deal with local fishery matters, but they mainly followed the lines of the bodies which, in Scotland, did a great part of the work of the counties—he referred to the Scotch district committees, which consisted half of members of the County Council and half of members appointed by the Parochial Boards now the Parish Councils. Those committees really did the whole work of the County Councils in Scotland, the latter being little more than the registering authority of those district committees. He thought that
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the powers of the committees as proposed by this Bill were exceedingly limited. In the first place, it was clear that they would be simply committees of the County and Town Councils, and would have to report to those Councils, which would refuse supplies to them if they did not approve of what was done by the committees. In regard to the trawling clause (10) the noble Duke set up arguments which he (Lord Tweedmouth) had never used. The argument which he had used was that it was quite possible for great beam trawlers to over-fish portions of the sea, and temporarily to destroy the fishing-ground of a small community, the inhabitants of which might thus be altogether deprived for three or four months of their means of subsistence. The noble Duke had attempted to draw a distinction between the herring and the white-fish fishermen, but there was no such distinction to be drawn. The men who caught the herring also caught the white-fish with the line. During the summer months the men fished for the herring, and during the winter months they were line fishermen; and if the men were deprived of the winter fishing they would cause considerable injury to the fishing industry in Scotland. He found from the last report of the Fishery Board that, for the year 1893, of the whole fish caught in Scotland 72 per cent, were caught by net (71 per cent. being herring), 21 per cent, by line, and 7 per cent. only by trawlers.
*THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he thought there was some mistake about the figures given, because he found in the report of the Trawling Commission the quantity of fish caught by trawlers was 180,000 cwt., and that the fish caught by trawlers in England was of the value of several millions.
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, he was not referring to England. The English trawlers did not trawl in waters near the coast. The North Sea was one great trawling-ground, and they could trawl all over the North Sea, and those Scottish trawlers caught the greater number of their fish more than 25 miles from the coast. They caught some of their best fish, in fact, off the coast of Iceland. The most valuable of the flat fish—the black sole—was not caught in Scottish waters at all. There were altogether over 45,000 men and boys engaged

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in fishing in Scotland, and of this number only 800 were employed on board trawlers. There were also over 1,200 fish-curers, employing 30,000 or 40,000 people, and, taking the coopers, boat-builders, and others connected with the trade, he believed that in Scotland there were at least 500,000 persons—men, women, and children—directly interested in, and getting a livelihood from, that industry. Of those a very small number were identified with trawling, whereas all round the coast little fishing colonies were established. Were they prepared to allow the present state of things to go on unchecked? At this moment something like a civil war was going on between the trawlers and the line and net fishermen. It was almost impossible to describe the state of feeling that existed, and the only proposal in the Bill with regard to the prohibition of trawling was that the Fishery Board should be given power to assign certain grounds for one kind of fishing and certain grounds for the other, so as to keep them apart. In the Act of 1889 the Scottish Fishery Board hail the power to prohibit trawling all over the Moray Firth, and exactly the same power was in force in the Firth of Clyde. The principle which was introduced in the trawling clauses in this Bill with regard to the power to prohibit trawling within the limit of 18 miles from the coast was the law in Scotland at present, and that law was made by the late Government.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Where?
*LORD TWEEDMOUTH: In two places. From Duncansbay Head to Rattray Head, which was the extreme point in Aberdeenshire, trawling was now absolutely prohibited. The same thing held good in the south-west of Scotland from the Mull of Kintyre, in Argyleshire, to Carsewell Head in Wigtownshire. All the Bill proposed was to give the Fishery Board power to prohibit trawling in any area within the 18-mile limit, but before such prohibition could take effect the bye-law must receive, the assent of the Secretary for Scotland, and that assent could only be given sifter a local inquiry at which all parties interested could be heard. That was hedging the power with very considerable safeguards. He did not regard
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this Bill as in any sense a Party measure, nor was it brought forward as such, or with the view of catching votes. He really believed that it was the minimum that could be given to the fishermen of Scotland with any prospect of doing them justice.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am not so rash as to venture into a Scottish Debate, but an observation made by the noble Lord rather induces me to call the attention of the Government to a point which appears to me to have been overlooked. I gathered from the noble Lord that it is all one matter whether you forbid trawling within 18 miles between the Mull of Kintyre and Carsewell Head, or whether it is done on the east coast of Scotland. I do not profess to lay down the international law on the matter—it is exceedingly obscure—but I rather doubt the wisdom of the Government in raising, by this Bill, a question which may give them some trouble. As long as the coast is open there is no doubt that three miles is the limit of territorial waters; but when the coast is folded and doubled, as it is in that part of Scotland with which the noble Duke (the Duke of Argyll) is most familiar, there come in a different set of traditions which belong to diplomatic law, and I may say that it is an unsettled question in international law how far the territorial waters extend. The discussions we have had in regard to Newfoundland, the Behring Sea, and to other parts of the, world, show that where the coast is not straight, but makes an angle, there the limit of the territorial waters is not so fixed. If the noble Lord attempted to assert jurisdiction over the waters for 18 miles over the east coast of Scotland, I am afraid he would find that what the noble Duke prophesied would happen—that foreign vessels would trawl at their ease while native vessels would be prevented from doing so. That is not the case where the coast is folded; there we can maintain our own. I do not know what the diplomatic notion upon the matter might be, but a strong ground would be afforded for argument. For this reason I call attention to the point, lest some difficulty might arise from the Government having raised the matter, I think unwisely. I only venture to deal with it as a Foreign Office question.
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, the prohibition could not be enforced against any foreign vessels. That was the case at present on a third of the east coast of Scotland, because the prohibition existed between Rattray Point and Duncansbay Head, which represented a third of the east coast. As far as he had been able to gather, there was no evidence that trawlers had trawled in the Moray Firth, and he did not think any difficulty was likely to arise.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he hoped the Government would not give their case away by making any pledge with regard to the limit.
LORD KELVINsaid, that care would have to be taken in the Bill that the fishing rights of the North of Ireland should not be interfered with. It would not be right to introduce such a clause as Clause 10 unless it was carried out with special judgment, and unless restrictions were introduced into the Bill to prevent such a grievous injustice as the exclusion of Irish fishermen from fishing over such a large portion of the sea, as might be the case under Clause 10.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNexpressed his gratification that the noble Duke did not propose to divide against the further progress of the Bill, and he could not agree that a Bill on the subject was not required. The procedure of the House was rather an awkward one when two Bills were referred to a Select Committee, and more especially when evidence was not taken, and Counsel were not heard—as the only information the House received was the official Report of the formal motions which were made in the course of the Committee. The first thing the Committee did was to raise the question of the desirability of District Committees, and as the great majority of the Committee was in favour of having them, he had not persevered in his opposition. The Marquess of Lothian moved that all Scotland be divided into District Committees; Lord Tweedmouth took objection to that proposal, but said he was prepared to make those District Committees entirely optional.
The House then went into Committee on the Bill.
Clauses 1, 2, and 3 were agreed to.
Clause 4,
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHproposed after "Act," page 1, line 19, to insert "1892."
Amendment agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 5,
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHproposed, page 2, lines 30 and 32, to leave out "town" and insert "burgh," and in line 37 after "or" to insert "to."
Amendments agreed to.
*THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, that as Cause 5, dealing with the establishment of sea fisheries districts, then stood, the Bill would be practically unworkable. His proposal in Committee was that the Bill should be compulsory all over Scotland, and that the Secretary for Scotland should have power to enforce the formation of fishery districts. As the Bill stood, fishery districts would be dotted about all over Scotland, which would make the formation of fishery districts very difficult, and as there would probably be disagreement as to the rating, no rating would be possible.
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHreplied that the best answer to the argument of the noble Marquess was, that there were District Committees under these very conditions all over England at the present moment, the only difference being that in. England they had a certain power of compulsion, which was struck out of this Bill. The reason was, that he had given way in order to get as much as he could. If the plan of compulsorily dividing Scotland into a certain number of districts were adopted, they would compel these localities to rate themselves, to which the noble Duke took the greatest objection in the Bill of last year. The system proposed was working perfectly in England.
*THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIAN: With the addition of the compulsory powers, which make it effectual.
*THE DUKE OF ARGYLLasked, what was the meaning of the words contained in lines 29 to 33?
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, that in the words "or police commissioners of such county town or police burgh," the word "county" was not an adjective qualifying "town," but a substantive.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 6,
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHproposed, on page 3, line 25, to leave out "burgh commission" and insert "commissioners of a police burgh," and leave out "councils'' and insert "of such bodies;" on line 26, to leave out "councils" and insert "bodies;" on page 4, line 39, after "burghs" to insert "not divided; into wards;'' and on page 5, line 7, after "thereof," to add—
"And in burghs and police burghs, divided into wards, the elections shall take place at such time and in such place within the burgh as the town council or the police commissioners respectively may determine, and as nearly as may lie in the same manner as the election of town councillors or police commissioners for a ward of such burgh."
They thought there might be difficulties in conducting an election of fishery members where the number of members to be elected was not the same as the number of wards, and it was in order to get over that difficulty that they proposed the last two Amendments.
Amendments agreed to.
Clause, as amended, agreed to.
Clauses 7 and 8 agreed to.
On Clause 9 (power to prohibit Seine trawling in certain localities).
*LORD TWEEDMOUTH*LORD TWEEDMOUTH moved to add at end of clause—
"Provided always that if no conviction shall follow, and net so seized shall lie forthwith returned, and due compensation shall he made for any loss or damage occasioned thereto by such seizure."
It was pointed out in the Select Committee that hardship would arise, if, when nets were seized, they were put away wet and, perhaps, got rotten. To meet such a case he proposed this Amendment.
Amendment put and agreed to.
Motion made and Question proposed "That the Clause as Amended stand part of the Bill."
*THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that the vast catches of fish in Loch Fyne and many miles around, were made by Seine trawlers. There had been a longstanding dispute between drift-net fishermen and Seine-net fishermen, and he had heard of serious collisions between the men. That was all over now, and the men, more or less, fish alongside each other. But there was still great jealousy, and he was sure any attempt to suppress Seine-net fishing would not be submitted to. The Seine-net fishermen caught enormous quantities of fresh fish which they sent every morning to Glasgow, and he confessed what was proposed was rather too strong a power to put into the hands of the Fishery Board.
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHquite agreed that any attempt to prohibit, generally, Seine trawling on the west coast would be wrong, but he thought there was, on the west coast, a consensus of opinion that it would be desirable to prohibit it for certain weeks at the beginning of the season, when damage was done, and also in shallow waters. There had been some ground of complaint. For instance, the Select Committee in their Report said:—
"Serious complaint was brought before your Committee of the damage which has, since 1878, been caused by the use of Seine nets for catching herrings on the Ballantrae banks, off the coast of Ayrshire. It is asserted that this practice both serves to disperse the shoals of herring which frequent those banks in the summer, and also greatly damages the trammel nets used by the local fishermen. The question is one in regard to which it is difficult for your Committee, on the evidence laid before them, to come to any definite conclusion. But it would appear to your Committee that this is a subject which should fall within the province of a local district sea-fishery Committee, and that the making of regulations to deal with such matters, as they arise from time to time, will naturally be entrusted to district sea-fishery Committees when constituted."
He thought the noble Duke would not like that power given to district sea-fishery Committees, but prefer it vested in the Scotch Fishery Board. He was sure they might trust the Board to exercise the power with discretion. They had not shown themselves unfair with regard to other trawling. In 1885 power was given to prohibit trawling within the three-mile limit, and yet the Board had only exercised the power for

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scientific purposes. The noble Duke would be safe in entrusting power to the Fishery Board as proposed in the Bill.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 10 (Restriction as to beam trawling and other trawling).
Amendments made:—
Page 7, line 29, leave out "such bye-law or bye-laws shall not," and insert "no bye-laws under this Section shall."—(Lord Tweed-mouth.)
Line 39, leave out "providing" and insert "poinding."—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
Line 4, after "Acts," insert
"provided always that if no conviction shall follow, any net so seized shall be forthwith returned, and due compensation made for any loss or damage occasioned thereto by such seizure."
*LORD TWEEDMOUTH*LORD TWEEDMOUTH moved the new Sub-Section which stood in his name. It was shown in the Select Committee that very often the whole brunt of an offence would fall on the captain of the trawler; that the captain of the trawler would not pay the fine and would be put into prison; he would remain in prison, the trawler would go to sea with another captain, and the owner of the offending trawler would escape altogether. It was, therefore, intended to provide that if the captain did not pay, the owner could be attached and the penalty could be exacted from the owner.
Amendment, after line 4, insert new sub-section—
"Failing payment by a certain date named in the conviction of the fine imposed upon the person or persons convicted, decree therefor may be pronounced against the owner or owners of the offending vessel or boat, and upon such decree being pronounced the person or persons convicted shall be relieved there from and from all penalties attaching that."—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
Put, and agreed to.
Amendment, line 7, after "Act," insert "1889."—(Lord Tweedmouth.)
Put, and agreed to.
Motion made, and Question proposed: "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."
*THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he objected altogether to this extravagant extension of protection against beam trawling—18 miles was a preposterous distance. He thought the protection ought to be confined to the territorial waters. The Northern and Eastern seas were comparatively shallow. Indeed one might go out 18 miles without getting into deep water. Owing to the existence of rocks there was a very little area that was trawlable at all, and what area there was was well within 18 miles. The adoption of this clause would simply prevent a large quantity of fish being caught, arid that would be a very injurious thing in the public interest. He entirely agreed with the arguments circulated by persons connected with the city of Aberdeen, which was the headquarters of the beam trawling, protesting against the clause and insisting very strongly that other evidence should be taken in regard to the operation of beam trawling. The matter was not at all fully understood at present, and other scientific investigation ought to be undertaken before there was any further legislation in the direction of restriction.
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLYthanked the Lord Privy Seal for the Amendments he had already made in the clause, but representing as he had been asked to do the very largest interest in the north-east of Scotland connected with the trade of trawling, he had given Notice of an Amendment to omit the clause. The proceedings of the Select Committee on which he served had been paraded by some] of the representatives I of the north-east constituencies in Scotland in a very laughable light. It was said that when a Division was taken on this clause he was in a minority of one to nine. By that vote of one to nine the opinion was expressed that further powers be given to the Fishery Board as regarded the prohibition of trawling. When they came to consider the clause, as amended, there was a very important proviso added, and it was that before any by-law was passed, before it was confirmed by the Secretary for Scotland, there should be a local inquiry held in the district adjoining the part of the sea to be included in the by-law. He believed the Bill was necessary; but he did not think that, if they met two people

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connected with the fishing industry, they would find they held the same view as to trawling. The one would say trawling did no harm, and the other would say it would he the absolute ruin of the line industry. He assured the Lord Privy Seal that the statistics he had so often quoted as to the numbers employed in the industry were contradicted in the newspapers over and over again. He would illustrate his argument by a very curious circumstance. During the Recess they had the honour of a visit to Aberdeen by the Lord Privy Seal, and on that occasion his Lordship was good enough to see a deputation from the fish-curers of Aberdeen. The spokesman of the deputation pointed out that flat-fish were caught to a great extent by trawlers. Lord Tweedmouth interposed the remark: "But flat-fish are almost entirely plaice." "There arc lemon soles as well as plaice," was the reply. Lord Tweedmouth remarked: "But lemon soles are not a marketable article." "Oh yes!" said members of the deputation; "last year the value of lemon soles was found to be equivalent to £30,000." The day following that on which the deputation waited upon the noble Lord, a gentleman, after reading the papers, sent Lord Tweedmouth copies of the orders he had received for lemon soles. Those orders, which were for several stones in each case, came from Bristol, Nottingham, Hull, Grimsby, and other places. He only mentioned this as one of many instances occurring every day that this great question was really not understood, and not thoroughly appreciated by those who were so strongly advocating the suppression of the trawling industry. During the recess a Fisheries' Conference was held, which was attended by 60 delegates from all parts of the United Kingdom. They had experience of the working of the English Fisheries Act, and could thoroughly understand the question at issue. A Resolution was moved by Mr. Maconochie stating—
"That inasmuch as the British Legislature has no power to prevent foreign trawlers from trawling outside the limits of the territorial waters, it would be unjust to prevent British trawlers, and that opposition should he offered to Section 10 of the Scotch Fisheries Bill."
On a division that Motion was carried by 37 votes to 4. It was impossible to
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refuse to recognise such an important expression of opinion by a body which was entirely non-political; and this opinion was shared by many experts, who feared that the clause would give a great blow to a flourishing industry, On the Second Reading he had called attention to this point,—that there might be vessels carrying a foreign flag and fishing in the waters closed to British fishermen; and that the latter might register themselves under a foreign flag. He suggested that the clause might pass with this proviso—
"Provided always that such bye-laws shall I not come into force until the Convention or arrangement with regard to Sea Fisheries which was concluded in 1882 between Her Majesty's Government and the Governments of certain foreign States, and which has since come into force in the Sea Fisheries Act of 1882, shall be so extended as to prevent the fishermen of foreign States from trawling in the waters which by such bye-laws shall be closed to British subjects."
This proviso represented the very strong and almost unanimous opinion of scientific experts on fishing, and he should certainly divide against the clause unless the proviso were added to it.
*LORD BALFOURhoped that the clause would not be struck out. The proviso of the noble Marquess would seem to go far to satisfy those for whom he spoke, and the obvious course for the noble Marquess would be to put his proviso on the Paper. He did not pin himself to the precise distance of 18 miles; it was an arbitrary distance, and he should be willing to change it if a reason could be shown. But that some distance beyond the territorial waters should be fixed was a matter of vital importance to many of the communities engaged in fishing. The noble Duke seemed to condemn any interference with trawling at all.
*THE DUKE OF ARGYLL: Not within territorial waters.
*LORD BALFOURsaid the noble Duke described interference beyond the territorial waters as "a monstrous invasion of private rights." How was it that that which was not a monstrous invasion of private rights within three miles of the coast, became so at a distance of 18 miles? Something had been said about "vote catching." He, had never had the privilege of sitting in the House of Commons, and he had no personal

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interest whatever in line-fishing. No line-fishermen lived in his neighbourhood in Scotland. But he was certain, from the evidence acquired by ordinary observation that there was a strong feeling in Scotland that some extension of the present limit was absolutely necessary in some districts of the coast. The proposal was not that there should be no trawling within 18 miles of; the coast, but that power should be given to the Secretary for Scotland to prohibit trawling at some points oil the coast, after full consideration of all the various interests concerned. He had confidence that those who might hold the post of Secretary for Scotland would approach the question in a judicial spirit and would deal with it fairly. The only way in which the conflicting interests could be reconciled was by having local inquiries in regard to particular and distinct propositions. He could not think that, this power given to the Secretary for Scotland would be the great hardship which those engaged in the trawling industry represented it to be. The trawlers had a large area in the North Sea for their operations. Of course the proposal in the first Bill was excessive. At one point, it would have given power to prohibit trawling at a distance of 75 or 80 miles from the coast. That would have been an unfair infringement of existing interests, because some of the important trawling stations were fixed just at that part of the coast. But to prohibit trawling within a moderate number of miles beyond the territorial limit was no hardship, for a trawler could sail at from 9 to 12 miles an hour.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid that he would explain the logical puzzle which the noble Lord had propounded. The noble 3 Lord asked why, when it was not monstrous to interfere within the 3 mile limit, it became monstrous to interfere within a limit of 18 miles. The noble Lord answered the question himself, for he admitted that it was wrong to interfere at a distance of 70 miles; and if at 70, why not at 18? But when they went beyond territorial waters, they would be prohibiting their own people from catching fish, which, he thought, would be very unjust and injurious.
*THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANgave notice that, on Report, he should move
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that the restricted area should not exceed 13 miles—that was, 10 miles beyond the territorial limit. One of the great difficulties likely to arise would be the great quantity of foreign trawlers fishing in water restricted against their own men. If this change were made, there would be less temptation for foreign trawlers to come into the restricted area.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, his noble Friend had used two different phrases; first, he would limit it to territorial waters and 10 miles beyond.
*THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, he had referred to the three miles and 10 beyond the territorial limit.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, great care had been taken not to name three miles as the territorial limit. The limit depended on the distance to which a cannon-shot could go. A cannon was fired on Jubilee Day, which carried 12 miles.
THE LORD CHANCELLORwas far from saying that three miles was to be the limit of territorial waters for all time. Originally, the distance was, as the noble Marquess said, fixed by gunshot, and it was always said that the distance a gun could fire to was three miles. How far this principle was to be extended, or whether it was to be extended indefinitely, was a question for consideration, and it was a question which would not be without its difficulty. The distance mentioned by the noble Marquess had already been exceeded by a mile, a gun at Shoeburyness having reached a distance of 13 miles. This might not be the limit. If a gun reached 13 miles it might reach over 20, and then there might be considerable difficulty with a country whose coast was not distant.
LORD HALSBURYwould like to mention that the question was treated of in an Act which he had the honour to pass through the House of Commons in 1878. The difficulty was overcome in that Act, which was the 41 & 42 Vict., cap. 73. In that Act they took care to specially avoid any measurements. The distance was left at such limit as was necessary for the defence of the Realm. Then the exact limit was given for the particular purpose in view.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNagreed that the limit should be extended

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beyond the three miles, but the clause as it stood was open to very serious objection. One objection was, that while they prohibited British trawlers from fishing in certain waters they could not extend that to foreign fishermen outside territorial waters. He should like to hear the answer which was made to the proposal of Lord Huntly, who suggested that there should be a proviso to the effect that such a by-law should riot come into force until a similar arrangement was made with foreign countries, by which they would not be placed in a better position than British fishermen.
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHcould not assent to that, for it would amount to postponing the matter altogether. It seemed to be thought that they were going to prohibit trawling within 18 miles of the Scotch coast. There was no such idea. There was perfect power to withdraw these by-laws if it were found to be necessary.
LORD KELVINthought that those parts of the coast of Scotland which came near to the mouth of the Belfast Lough and County Down should be excluded from the operation of the Bill.
THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIREsaid, he knew the rashness of interfering in a Scotch Debate, but English interests were involved as well as Scotch interests. He had not heard a word from the Lord Privy Seal that he was aware of the fact. One important Resolution, passed at a meeting of the fishing interest of the United Kingdom, read by his noble Friend behind him, protested against the injustice of prohibiting English trawlers from fishing in extra-territorial waters, when no such restriction would be placed on foreign fishermen. If he had not an assurance from the Board of Trade that this would be seen to, he should vote for the omission of the clause.
The Committee divided:—Contents, 32; Not Contents, 5.
The clause, together with clauses up to 19 inclusive, was agreed to and added to the Bill.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN moved, after Clause 19, to insert the following clause:—
"The efficient watching of such parts of the sea and sea- coast as are, or shall be, within the
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scope of this Act, shall be entrusted to the Fishery Board, who shall have power to provide for the due observance of the by-laws in force from time to time by the employment of officers, vessels, and otherwise, as shall be approved by the Secretary for Scotland. Provided that nothing in this section shall exempt the Coastguard and Admiralty Officers from their statutory duty in enforcing the law and regulations affecting vessels engaged in sea-fishing"
He pointed out that hitherto the responsibility for this duty had been divided between the Admiralty and the Fishery Board. This duty of watching the sea fisheries was not appropriate to the duties of naval officers, and it must, besides, be distasteful to them. Up to the present time the duty had been discharged by the Jackal, which was slower in speed than any of the trawlers. Just as in the preceding clause they had enabled the District Committees to employ officers for certain purposes, so the Government ought, by accepting this clause, to make it clear that the responsibility for the sea police was placed solely in the hands of the Fishery Board.
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid, he could not accept the new clause. In the first place, he did not think it was necessary, because the police duty already devolved on the Scotch Fishery Board, and it needed no declaratory clause of this kind to emphasise the fact. If this clause were to have any force at all, it would make the Fishery Board free from any control of the Treasury with regard to the police arrangements. [" No, no!"] If the clause were to be accepted in any form it could only be accepted with the proviso reserving control over expenditure by the Treasury. He pointed out also that only last year a sum of £5,000 was given by the Treasury to the Fishery Board to purchase a new cruiser in place of the old Vigilant. The Fishery Board needed to have greater facilities for policeing the sea.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, that the purchase of a new vessel did not mean an enforcement of the law; and how the Fishery Board was to efficiently police the sea without any means, without officers and vessels—except a small yacht and another small vessel—he could not see. How did the Government propose to provide for the policeing of the extended area of sea? It was urged that there would be no security against

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charges being incurred, and which would not be approved by the Treasury. He thought, however, that the Secretary for Scotland would not act without consulting and obtaining the consent of the Treasury. He was quite willing to add any words the noble Lord chose to suggest so as to ensure the consent of the Treasury being obtained. He had two objects in view—first, that the Fishery Board should alone be charged with the duty of policeing the sea, and that it should be discharged in an efficient manner. If the words of the clause were not appropriate, he was ready to accept any other form to carry out those two objects.
*THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANrecognised the difficulty of his noble Friend in accepting the clause. It would not have the effect the noble Lord desired to attain. It was absolutely useless, however, to pass a law and not to provide for it being carried into effect. Nothing could be more disastrous from the point of view of public policy than that Parliament should pass a law and not grant the means to carry it into effect. When he was at the Scotch Office there were no means available to see the law carried into effect. The Admiralty declined to do what was necessary in order to see that the law was not infringed; and he had to make representations to the Treasury for funds with that object. He did not obtain the money, and the consequence was that the law was constantly broken. The Government ought to do something to see that the law was properly observed. It was the duty of the Fishery Board, and it did not come within the province of the Admiralty.
LORD THRINGsaid, it was a principle of legislation never to say that the Government were to carry out a measure of this kind by any particular means. It was the duty of a Government, whenever a law was passed, to carry it into effect. For instance, there were many duties put upon the Secretaries of State, but it was never said that it was the duty of either of them to carry them into effect. He hoped, therefore, that their Lordships would not now introduce an innovation on the general precedent by inserting a clause which was useless.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANregretted that the noble Lord had not been
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at the Scotch Office during his period of service there. No means were provided by which he could see that the law was carried into effect.
Amendment negatived.
Remaining Clauses and the Title agreed to, and
Bill, with Amendments, reported.
*LORD BALFOURasked when the Report would be taken.
*LORD TWEEDMOUTHsaid that the Report would be put down for that day week. He now moved that the Standing Committee be negatived.
Motion agreed to.

UNOPPOSED RETURN.
LORD MORRIS LORD MORRIS moved for a Return of the dates at which Lords Justices for Ireland were sworn as such, and of the dates at which they ceased to act, during the respective years commencing the 1st of January 1865 and terminating the 31st December 1894.
Motion agreed to.

MR. SPEAKER'S RETIREMENT BILL.
On Motion of THE LORD PRESIDENT (The Earl of ROSEBERY), Bill read 3a.

EVIDENCE IN CRIMINAL CASES BILL.
On Motion of LORD HALSBURY, the Report of an Amendment made by the Standing Committee was brought up and agreed to.
House adjourned at Seven of the Clock.