Sitting of 27 June 1895

Preamble
The House met at Three of the Clock.

COMMISSION.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners;—
The House went;—and, being returned;—
Mr. SPEAKERreported the Royal Assent to Bills which had passed both Houses. (For list, see proceedings of House of Lords under this date.)

EDUCATION (SCIENCE AND ART DEPARTMENT) (DRAWING IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS.)
Copy presented,—of Illustrated Syllabus of the course of Instruction in Drawing under the Department, together with an alternative Syllabus and a Scheme of Instruction in Drawing for small schools [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

TECHNICAL INSTRUCTION ACT, 1889.
Copies presented,—of Minutes santioning the subjects to be taught under Clause 8 of the Act for the following counties, cities, &c.;—
County of Warwick (Fifth Minute), dated 22nd May 1895;
City of Limerick, dated 28th May 1895;
County of Buckingham (Fifth Minute), dated 31st May 1895;
County of East Suffolk, dated 31st May 1895;
County of Southampton (Sixth Minute), dated 14th June 1895;
County Borough of Portsmouth, dated 14th June, 1895;
[by Act]; to lie upon the Table.

COMPANIES ACTS 1862–90.
Copy presented of Report of the Department Committee appointed by the President of the Board of Trade to inquire what Amendments are necessary in the Acts relating to Joint Stock Companies incorporated with Limited Liability, together with the Appendix thereto [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
SOUTH AFRICA.
Copy presented,—of Correspondence relating to certain Native Territories situated to the North-East of Zululand [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
CANADIAN COPYRIGHT.
Copy presented,—of Return of Amounts received from Canada since 1877 as Duties collected on Foreign Reprints of British Copyright Works [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
SOUTH AFRICA.
Copy presented,—of Correspondence relating to the Rescission of the Customs Duties Clause (No. 50) in the Agreement between the Government of British Bechuanaland, the British South Africa Company, and the Bechuanaland Railway Company, Limited (in continuation of [C. 7154], &c) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
Copy presented,—of Correspondence on the subject of the Law of Copyright in Canada [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
STRAITS SETTLEMENTS.
Copy presented,—of further Correspondence relative to the Military Contribution (in continuation of [C. 6290], March 1891) [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
EAST INDIA (LOANS RAISED IN (INDIA.
Copy presented of Return of all Loans raised in India chargeable on the Revenues of India outstanding at the commencement of the half-year ended on the 31st March 1895, &c. (by Act); to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.— [No. 336.]
QUEEN'S COLLEGE (GALWAY).
Copy presented of Annual Report of the President for 1894–5 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND).
Copy presented of Rule made by the Intermediate Education Board for Ireland, dated 24th May 1895 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (SCOTLAND).
Copy presented of First Annual Report of the Local Government Board for Scotland, 1894–5 [by Command]; to lie upon, the Table.
WOODS, FORESTS, AND LAND REVENUES.
Copy presented of Seventy-third Report of the Commissioners, dated 26th June 1895 [by Act]; to lie upon the the Table, and to be printed.—[No. 337.]
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
Third Report from Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence and an Appendix, brought up and read. Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.—[No. 339.]
PUBLIC ACCOUNTS.
Fourth Report from Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, brought up and read. Report to lie upon the Table and to be printed.—[No. 340.]

EARL OF SELBORNE.
Message from the Lords—
That they request that this House will be pleased to communicate to their Lordships a Copy of the Report, &c., of the Select Committee appointed by this House in the present Session of Parliament on the Earldom of Selborne.
Printed copy to be communicated.

MERCHANDISE MARKS (FILES) BILL.
Special Report from the Select Committee brought up and read.
Bill reported without Amendment.
Special Report and Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.— [No. 335.]
Minutes of Evidence to be printed.—[No. 335.]

RETIRED SOLDIERS' AND SAILORS' EMPLOYMENT.
Report from the Select Committee, with Minutes of Evidence, brought up and read,
Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.—[No. 338.]

GAS ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 1°, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed.—[Bill 327.]
GAS AND WATER ORDERS CONFIRMATION BILL [H.L.]
Read 1°, and referred to the Examiners of Petitions for Private Bills, and to be printed.—[Bill 328.]

THE ROYAL PATRIOTIC FUND.
On Motion rescinding the Order of the House of March 29th directing that five should be a quorum of the Committee for considering the Royal Patriotic Fund, and that the quorum should be reduced to three,
DR. CLARKinquired whether this was not a Committee which proposed to make a change in the constitution of the Fund. In such a case he objected to such a change being made by only three Members of the Committee.
MR. W. WOODALLsaid, that it was impossible to complete the Inquiry this Session, but that it was desirable to bring the proceedings of the Committee up to a particular stage To-morrow in order that they might make a Report to the House. It was doubtful whether five Members could attend To-morrow, and it was for that reason that the Motion was submitted to the House.
Motion agreed to.

MORTGAGEES' COSTS BILL.
Lords' Amendments to be considered forthwith; considered, and agreed to.

THE LAW OF DISTRESS AMENDMENT ACT BILL.
On Motion that the Lords' Amendments to this Bill be considered,
DR. CLARKinquired whether this was a private measure, or whether
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the House was now engaged in public business.
MR. R. B. HALDANE, who spoke from the Treasury Bench, said, that the Bill was introduced by the Lord Chancellor and had passed both Houses of Parliament, and had the approval of the highest judicial authorities, and the Amendments made in it by the Lords were purely of a drafting character.
DR. CLARKsaid, that he supposed the hon. and learned Gentleman spoke on behalf of the Government.
MR. JAMES LOWTHERsaid, that it was a great inconvenience that the Lords' Amendments to this Bill should be taken without notice. He should not, under the circumstances, object to the Lords'3 Amendments to5 this Bill being considered, but he should on the earliest opportunity call the attention of the House to the matter, as he thought that a most undesirable practice had been followed, and he should move that Amendments by the Lords should be printed before they were considered by the House.
SIR WILFRID LAWSONasked whether he was to understand that the right hon. Gentleman was speaking on behalf of the Government? [Laughter.]
Resolved, That the Commons do not insist on their Amendment to which the Lords have disagreed, and agree to the Amendment made by the Lords in lieu thereof.—(Mr.Haldane.)

ADJOURNMENT.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn,"—(Sir William Walrond), put, and agreed to.
House adjourned accordingly at Hall after Three o'clock till Monday next.

COMMISSION.
The following Bills received the Royal Assent:—
Carrickfergus Town Commissioners.
Court of Session Consignations (Scotland).
Downing College.
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 1.)
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 2.)
Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3.)
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Acton).
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Bristol).
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Croydon).
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Hornsey).
Elementary Education Provisional Orders Confirmation (Leeds).
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Liverpool).
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Llangollen)
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Longbenton).
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Lowestoft).
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Manchester).
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Pwllheli).
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Weston-super-Mare).
Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Wilmington).
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (No. 3.)
Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 4.)
Lynton and Barnstaple Railway.
Metropolitan Police Provisional Order.
Phœnix Assurance Company.
Pier and Harbour Provisional Orders (No. 1.)
Poole Harbour.
Post Office Act, (1891) Amendment.
Seal Fisheries (North Pacific).
Tramways (Ireland) (No. 2.)
The Commissioners were Lord Herschell, the Marquess of Breadalbane, and Lord Kensington.

SCIENCE AND ART DEPARTMENT.
Minutes of Committee of Council on Education sanctioning the subjects to be taught under Clause 8 of the Technical Instruction Act, 1889, for—County of Southampton (sixth minute); County Borough of Portsmouth; County of Warwick (fifth minute); City of Limerick; County of Buckingham (fifth minute); County of East Suffolk:

WOODS, FORESTS, AND LAND REVENUES.
Seventy-third Report of the Commissioners:
Laid before the House (pursuant to Act) and ordered to lie upon the Table.

LORD'S DAY ACT.
Report from the Select Committee (with the Proceedings of the Committee), made, and to be printed; Minutes of Evidence, together with an Appendix, laid upon the Table, and to be delivered out. (No. 178.)
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILLS.

  ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL [H.L.]
  EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (LONDON) BILL [H.L.]
  House in Committee (according to Order); Amendments proposed by the Select Committee made: Standing Committee negatived: The Report of Amendments to be received To-morrow.

  INCLOSURE (UPTON ST. LEONARDS) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment: Standing Committee, negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (GAS) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment: Standing Committee negatived; Amendments made; and Bill to be read 3a on Monday next.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 4) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without amendment: Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 6) BILL.
  Committee of the Whole House, (which stands appointed for this day) put off to Monday next.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (HOUSING OF WORKING CLASSES) BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order); Bill reported without amendment; Standing Committee negatived; and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION (TOTTENHAM) BILL [H.L.]
  Read 3a (according to Order), and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  The following Bills were read 3a (according to Order), and passed:—

  COMMONS REGULATION ( BEXHILL) PRO VISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  COMMONS REGULATION (HALIFAX) PROVISIONAL ORDER, BILL.
  INCLOSURE (CASTOR AND AILSWORTH) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVI- SIONAL ORDER (No. 5) BILL.
  PIER AND HARHOUR PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 3) BILL.

  WITHDRAWAL OF NOTICES.
  THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, that before the political crisis he put on the Paper notices upon two subjects—one upon the question of the difficulties connected with money lending and usury in this country, and the other connected with the Highlands. He felt that, although one of those subjects was entirely non-contentious, it was impossible now to get public attention directed to them. He begged, therefore, to intimate that he withdrew those notices, and he should bring the subjects forward, health and life permitting, when Parliament reassembled for business.
  THE COMMITTEE ON LORD'S DAY OBSERVANCE.
  VISCOUNT CROSS, on behalf of the Committee on Lord's Day Observance, said the Committee had sat and had taken a great deal of evidence. On their behalf he presented that evidence to the House, in order that it might be printed and circulated. No decision had been come to.

  THE NEW MINISTRY.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY, who was received with cheers, said: I have to apologise for having been absent on Monday and Tuesday, but it was unavoidable. I do not wish to make anything in the nature of a statement of a contentious character to-night, or any explanation of policy—the moment for that has Hardly arrived. We have but one policy, and that is Dissolution. [Cheers.] We wish to dissolve as early as we can, and we shall take every means in our power to bring about, as speedily as possible, that decision of the people in their constituencies, which can alone trace out a line for the future policy of the Government of this country. I merely have to say that we hope that

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  Dissolution will take place; on Monday or Tuesday week. I may be sanguine, but. I hope that will be the case; and our view is to subordinate to that great object every other consideration; that is to say, that if there are measures which, without retarding the Dissolution, can attain to their full perfection, of course we have nothing to object to then, if they are otherwise unobjectionable. But we should demur to, and as far as we are able to, resist, any proposal to postpone the Dissolution for the sake of passing any measure whatever, except, of course, those necessary money measures which are required to enable the public service to go on while the General Election is being carried out. ["Hear, hear!"] I have no other observation to make at the present stage, and unless the noble Earl opposite desires to make any statement on which it may be my duty to comment I will abstain from trespassing further upon the House.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY, who was received with cheers, said, I am sure we have heard with the greatest interest the statement of the noble Marquess, in which he appears to me to have reduced to a minimum what we might have expected from him. [Laughter.] Unpractised as I am in the dialectics of the English language as sometimes practised, I was unable to follow as closely as I could have wished the way in which the policy of the new Government was to be evolved out of the Dissolution. Are we to have no proclamation, of policy before Dissolution? [Cheers.] It is rather an important matter. I do not wish to press the noble Marquess, or disturb in any way the harmony of the evening; for, as far as we are concerned, we are quite as ready to challenge the judgment of the country as the noble Marquess. But if on one side you are to have a declaration of policy which belongs to these benches, and which, if anything, errs somewhat in the extent and greatness of its scope, and on the other side a mere blank sheet on which something is to be written
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  after the constituencies have given their decision, we shall have arrived at a crisis of a momentous character and of an unparalleled nature. ["Hear, hear!"] I, therefore, hope that in due time, after whatever counsel the noble Marquess may see fit to take, he will give us some sort of statement of policy, and that he will not treat this House, of which he is the avowed champion, in a way more disrespectful than this House has ever been treated before. ["Hear, hear!"] I will ask one single question. I know very little, as I am not in the confidence of the new Government, of its proceedings but there is one proceeding of which I cannot help being cognisant, because it a fleets a Member of the old Government. On Friday night a Vote of Censure was passed in the House of Commons on the Secretary of State for War. That is a question I do not propose to go into at this moment. We shall have an ample opportunity of discussing it later; but on Tuesday morning the Secretary of State for War was proceeding from a Committee in the House of Commons and he was stopped by the Secretary to the noble Marquess, who demanded from him the seals of office.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: No, no.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My statement comes from the Secretary of State for War himself, and I am disposed to place the most implicit reliance upon it. Of course my right hon. Friend said he was unable to deliver up the seal of office to any one except the Sovereign from whom he received it. That transaction is in itself so mysterious that I venture to ask for some explanation. In former times Sovereigns of an arbitrary character have sent for the seals of their Ministers without receiving them themselves, but that a new Minister, who had not been in office 12 hours should send his Private Secretary to a Secretary of State for his seals, without my written authority, is, to my mind, a

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  proceeding so unparalleled as coming from the head of the Constitutional Party that I think it is in the interest of constitutional history and constitutional tradition, as well as of the relations we are accustomed to cultivate between political parties themselves, although antagonistic, that a full and clear explanation of the nature and motive of this proceeding would be exceptionally welcome. ["Hear, hear!"]
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: With respect to the demand of the noble Earl for a programme of policy, I would only observe that probably before the new Government pronounces a programme of policy, it might be expedient that the new Government should come into existence. With respect to the other matter—which I must designate by the, perhaps too familiar term, a mare's nest—the demand of the seals from the Secretary of State for War, I will tell the noble Earl, as far as I know, exactly what took place. In view of the nature of the Vote and of the possible requirements of the War Office, I thought that it might be desirable that there should not be an interregnum, but that the vacancy at the War Office should be filled up at once. I never thought of pursuing that plan except in the way of a friendly communication with the present occupant of the Office. I only sent to ask him whether it would be convenient to place in Her Majesty's hands the seals he holds at an earlier period than would be the case with the mass of the Government. I did not wish to put upon him the necessity of travelling down to Windsor. It has been in my experience a common thing to hand over the seals to other persons, and if he had been willing to do so it would have been convenient that he should have done so. It was merely a courteous request, for the purpose of facilitating the conduct of public business, which I do not think ought to alarm, the constitutional scruples of the noble Earl. The Secretary of State for
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  War refused, and there was an end of the matter. It might have been more convenient or it might not. I think it would. It was a perfectly natural and a perfectly harmless request to make and I never intended it to adopt the formal, official character which the noble Earl supposes attaches to it. ["Hear, hear!"]
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: The noble Marquess has referred to precedents. I should be quite satisfied with a precedent of Victoria. [Laughter.] If the noble Marquess will kindly state on what occasion seals have been transferred in the streets to private secretaries I shall be glad. ["Hear, hear!"] I really think the matter requires more elucidation. The noble Marquess practically avows the whole statement, and only says that it would be a matter of convenience that there should not be a vacuum at the War Office.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I said interregnum.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: Well, interregnum, but I thought vacuum was a more correct expression. What he means by that I do not know. The noble Marquess sends his Private Secretary to try and extract the seals from the right hon. Gentleman, who now holds them, and I am bound to say that in every respect he has corroborated my statements, but has failed to give precedents for this extraordinary proceeding. ["Hear, hear!"]
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: It is within my knowledge that it has often been the case that a Minister has handed over to some other person the seals to be carried to Her Majesty. I think that was done in the case of Lord Randolph Churchill when he resigned Office, and in many other instances. It is a very common way when a Minister finds it inconvenient to go down to Windsor; and that my Private Secretary demanded the seals from the Secretary of State can only be supported by an entire misunderstanding. What he wished

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  to ask the Secretary of State was that if he did not wish to go down to Windsor himself, he should confide the seals to some messenger of his own. It was merely a question for the convenience of the right hon. Gentleman, and I think it might have met with a more courteous reception.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY: Talk of courteous receptions! [Cheers.] Has it not occurred to the noble Marquess that there might also have been a more courteous message? [Cheers.] Can any one conceive a more extraordinary proceeding than that after a Vote of Censure had been passed on a Minister of the Crown, he should be asked to hand over the seals of office in a manner neither courteous to himself nor in accordance with practice? It is extraordinary that the Secretary of State should be asked by the head of a Party in the State to give up the seals, and that he should have conceived that he was on such easy terms with a gentleman in the position of the Secretary of State that he could send his Secretary, very much in the same way as he would send his footman, to ask the right hon. Gentleman to hand over the seals. If the noble Marquess thought that the change of Government would be facilitated by some proceeding of that kind, and if I had been in the position of the Secretary of State—and my relations with the noble Marquess have never been otherwise than of an agreeable character—I certainly should have been extremely hurt if he had sent me such a message. I should have expected him to write me a letter and explain the reason why it was desirable that I should hand over the seals; and I should have thought, after the receipt of the letter, that, if it was possible to facilitate in any way the transfer of Government, then it was a matter which deserved consideration. I must say, I think this proceeding was one not in accordance with the habitual courtesy which prevails among us, and one which,
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  I think, the noble Marquess, if he reflects upon it, must think had better not have been done. It may have been done without thought, for I cannot believe that the noble Marquess could have deliberately intended to do what every one must feel was a very offensive thing to my right hon. Friend.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Are we not rather descending to small matters? ["No, no!"] After the statement of the noble Earl I have but one course. If I am informed that Mr. Secretary Bannerman thought that I was discourteous in the manner in which I treated him, I have only to express my extreme regret. ["Hear, hear!"] There was nothing further from my intention. Whether you ought to send a verbal message by a private Secretary or communicate by letter in these cases is one of those border questions of social etiquette in which men may make mistakes. If Mr. Campbell-Bannerman thinks I did not treat him with sufficient respect, I have only to express my regret. ["Hear, hear!"]
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: The message, whatever its kind or whatever may have been its means of transmission, ought not to have come from the noble Marquess at all, but from the Sovereign. It is not so small a matter as the noble Marquess thinks. However, we are perfectly content to accept the apology of the noble Marquess, but it is not a good augury for the new Government that they should have to begin with an apology.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I demur to the Constitutional doctrine of the noble Earl. What I wished to know was whether Mr. Campbell-Bannerman was willing to receive a message from the Sovereign to hand over the Seals.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: But that was not the way it was put.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I could not go to the Sovereign and ask her to send a summons to him without

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  knowing whether he was willing to give them up at once. It was simply my desire to consult his convenience that I took this step which appears to have excited a very disproportionate amount of interest.

  FRIENDLY SOCIETIES BILL.
  LORD PLAYFAIR, in moving the Second Reading of this Bill, explained that it had come up from the other House, where it had been unopposed. It was a Bill to amend the Friendly Societies Act, and had been prepared by the Friendly Societies in conjunction with the Treasury. It incorporated two or three of the recommendations made in the Report of the Aged Poor Commission.
  THE EARL OF LIMERICKasked whether the Bill had been printed and circulated.
  LORD PLAYFAIRsaid, that it had been printed, but by some accident not circulated. Copies would now be delivered without delay.
  Bill read 2a.
  House adjourned at Ten minutes before Five until To-morrow.