Sitting of 5 February 1895

Preamble
The House met at a quarter before Two of the clock.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners:—
The House went:—and being returned:—

NEW WRITS DURING THE RECESS.
MR. SPEAKERintimated that, in accordance with the Acts of Parliament regulating the issue of Writs during the Recess, the following Writs had been issued during the past Recess:—
For the Borough of Birkenhead, v. Viscount Bury, called to the House of Peers as Earl of Albemarle; for the County of Sutherland, v. Mr. Angus Sutherland, appointed Chairman of the Fishery Board for Scotland; for the County of Forfar, v. Sir John Rigby, appointed a Lord Justice of Appeal; for the City of York, v. Mr. Frank Lockwood, appointed Solicitor-General; for the County of Lincoln (North Lindsey or Brigg Division), v. Mr. S. D. Waddy, appointed Recorder of Sheffield; for the County of Worcester (Evesham Division), v. Sir E. Lechmere, deceased.

ELECTIONS.
Ordered, That all Members who are returned for two or more places in any part of the United Kingdom do make their election for which of the places they will serve, within one week after it shall appear that there is no question upon the Return for that place; and if any thing shall come in question touching the Return or Election of any Member, he is to withdraw during the time the matter is in debate; and that all Members returned upon double Returns do withdraw till their Returns are determined.
Resolved, That no Peer of the Realm, except such Peers of Ireland as shall for the time being be actually elected, and shall not have declined
52
to serve, for any county, city, or borough of Great Britain, hath any right to give his vote in the Election of any Member to serve in Parliament.
Resolved, That it is a high infringement of the liberties and privileges of the Commons of the United Kingdom for any Lord of Parliament, or other Peer or Prelate, not being a Peer of Ireland at the time elected, and not having declined to serve for any county, city, or borough of Great Britain, to concern himself in the Election of Members to serve for the Commons in Parliament, except only a Peer of Ireland, at such Elections in Great Britain respectively where such Peer shall appear as a Candidate, or by himself, or any others, be proposed to be elected; or for any Lord Lieutenant or Governor of any county to avail himself of any authority derived from his Commission, to influence the Election of any Member to serve for the Commons in Parliament.
Resolved, That if it shall appear that any person hath been elected or returned a Member of this House, or endeavoured so to be, by Bribery, or any other Corrupt Practices, this House will proceed with the utmost severity against all such persons as shall have been wilfully concerned in such Bribery or other Corrupt Practices.

WITNESSES.
Resolved, That if it shall appear that any person hath been tampering with any Witness, in respect of his evidence to be given to this House, or any Committee thereof, or directly or indirectly hath endeavoured to deter or hinder any person from appearing or giving evidence, the same is declared to be a high crime and misdemeanor; and this House will proceed with the utmost severity against such offender.
Resolved, That if it shall appear that any person hath given false evidence in any case before this House, or any Committee thereof, this House will proceed with the utmost severity against such offender.

METROPOLITAN POLICE.
Ordered, That the Commissioners of the Police of the Metropolis do take care that, during the Session of Parliament, the passages through the street leading to this House be kept free and open, and that no obstruction be permitted to hinder the passage of Members to and from this House, and that no disorder be allowed in Westminster Hall, or in the passages leading to this House, during the Sitting of Parliament, and that there be no annoyance therein or thereabouts: And that the Sergeant-at-Arms attending this House do communicate this Order to the Commissioners aforesaid.
VOTES AND PROCEEDINGS.
Ordered, That the Votes and Proceedings of this House be printed, being first perused by Mr. Speaker; and that he do appoint the printing thereof; and that no person but such as he shall appoint do presume to print the same.
Ordered, That a Committee of Privileges be appointed.
OUTLAWRIES BILL.
"Bill for the more effectual preventing Clandestine Outlawries," read the first time; to be read a second time.

JOURNAL.
Ordered, That the Journal of the House, from the end of last Session to the end of the present Session, with an Index thereto, be printed.
Ordered, That 750 Copies of the said Journal and Index be printed by the appointment and under the direction of Sir Reginald Francis Douce Palgrave, K.C.B., the Clerk of this House.
Ordered, That the said Journal and Index be printed by such person as shall be licensed by Mr. Speaker, and that no other person do presume to print the same.

HOUSE OF COMMONS ACCOMMODATION, 1894.
Copy ordered,
Of Statement of the Alterations which have been carried out in accordance with the recommendations of a Select Committee of this House.—(Mr. H. Glad-stone.)
Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 1.]

ALIEN IMMIGRATION.
Copy ordered,
Of Return of the number of Aliens that arrived from the Continent at Ports in the United Kingdom in each month of the year 1895.—(Mr. Burt.)
Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table; and to be printed. [No. 2.]

TRADE AND NAVIGATION.
Copy ordered,
Of Accounts relating to Trade and Navigation of the United Kingdom for each month during the year 1895.—(Mr. Burt.)
Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table; and to be printed. [No. 3.]

CIVIL CONTINGENCIES FUND, 1893–4
Copy ordered,
Of Accounts showing (1) The Receipts and Payments in connection with the Fund in the year ended the 3lst day of March, 1894;
(2) The distribution of the Capital of the Fund at the commencement and close of the year;
together with the Correspondence with
54
the Comptroller and Auditor General thereon.—(Sir J. Hibbert.)
Copy presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed.[No. 4.]

NEW MEMBERS SWORN.
Henry Broadhurst, esquire, for Borough of Leicester.
Walter Hazell, esquire, for Borough of Leicester.
Sir F. Lockwood Q.C., for City of York.
Elliott Lees, esquire, for Borough of Birkenhead.
Samuel Morris, esquire, for County Kilkenny (South Division).
John McLeod, esquire, for Sutherland County.
Hon. Charles Maule Ramsay for Forfar County.
John Maunsell Richardson, esquire, for Lincoln County (North Lindsey, or Brigg Division).
Colonel Long for Worcestershire (Evesham Division).

NEW WRIT.
For the Southern Division of the Borough of Paddington, v. Lord Randolph Churchill, deceased.— (Mr. Akers Douglas.)

THE LEICESTER ELECTION.
SIR HENRY JAMESsaid he wished to occupy the attention of the House for a short time on a matter of procedure which seemed to him to raise a question of Privilege. It related to what he believed was an irregularity in the return of the two hon. Gentlemen who had just taken their seats as Representatives of the Borough of Leicester, an irregularity which caused the return not to be complete or valid. It would be in the recollection of the House that the Secretary to the Treasury made two distinct motions in August last. He first moved for a Writ for the return of a Member in the place of Sir James Whitehead. Then came a second motion for a second election to take place. One election had only taken place, and therefore there ought to have been only one return made, but two returns had been made. They must deal with this subject from two points of view—the one as it affected the constituency, and the other as it affected the House. It was important that the House should see that

55
its Orders were obeyed and its Precepts observed. On the first question he had nothing to say, because no elector had petitioned the House. In the second place, when the irregularity was pointed out, those most interested in the election met and agreed that, whatever should be the result of the election, it should be binding upon all candidates and their supporters, and that no objection should be made to it. He saw no objection to such a course being taken; and he was sure that all would agree that after that agreement had been made it ought to be loyally carried out. In these circumstances he did not think they were bound to consider the interests of the constituency; but the question still remained whether, if it were the case that no election had been validly held, and if these two gentlemen who had now taken their seats had not been elected, and were consequently Strangers in the House, they should be allowed to sit there. If there were a way out of the difficulty he should be glad if these gentlemen could retain their seats; but if there was no valid return they were not entitled to sit. It was impossible the House could let that subject pass without taking notice of it. It was entirely a question for the House to determine, and he would therefore take this early opportunity of asking the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he saw any objection to this matter being referred to, and considered by, a Committee such as that which sat last Session to determine the position of the Eldest Sons of Peers sitting in this House. Such a Committee would inquire into the question whether that election had been properly held or not.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EX-CHEQUER (Sir W. HARCOURT): My right hon. and learned Friend has stated the case with great candour. He has not entered into any elaborate arguments on the subject, and he has therefore precluded me from doing so. Although I do not share his views I should be prepared to give reasons why I think that the course he has suggested would not be an inconvenient, but a possible, one under the circumstances. I will only give one illustration: Suppose there had been two elections on the same day and there were two candidates, and suppose a third candidate stood, as he might
56
have done if there were separate elections, against both, and had been returned against both, then he would hold both seats for Leicester. My right hon. Friend has fairly avoided putting reasons before the House, but he has asked that the matter shall be examined into by a Committee. It would not be incumbent on the part of the Government to oppose such an inquiry; and I shall be happy to confer with my right hon. Friend as to the terms of the Resolution.
SIR H. JAMESthen gave notice that on Thursday or Friday he would move that the matter be referred to a Committee in the terms of a motion to be agreed upon with the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

THE BALLOT FOR BILLS AND MOTIONS.
SIR W. HARCOURTsaid it was found convenient last Session that motions should not be taken by Ballot in the House, but that they should be taken in a Committee Room. The original arrangement was not found exactly to suit the convenience of all Members, and afterwards it was subjected to a modification which he believed was found to have given general satisfaction. He therefore now gave notice that on Wednesday, at the commencement of Business, he would move:—
"That all Members who desire to ballot, whether for Bills or motions, for the first four Tuesdays of the Session do hand in their names at the Table during the Sittings on Tuesday and Wednesday, and that a copy of such notices be handed in at the latest during the Sitting of the House on Thursday, and that no Bills other than Government Bills be introduced in anticipation of the Ballot; and that the Ballot for Bills and motions be taken on Thursday at noon in Grand Committee Rooms Numbers 10 and 11."

MINISTERIAL NOTICES OF MOTION.
THE HOME SECRETARY (Mr. ASQUITH, Fife, E.): I beg to give notice that on Thursday I shall ask leave to bring in a Bill to terminate the Establishment of the Church of England in Wales and Monmouthshire, and to make Provision in respect to the Temporalities thereof.
THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Mr. J. MORLEY, New-castle-on-Tyne): I beg to give notice that on Thursday I shall ask leave to

57
bring in a Bill to further amend the Law relating to the Occupation and Ownership of Land in Ireland, and for other purposes relating thereto. I also give notice that on Thursday I shall ask leave to bring in a Bill to provide for the Supply of Seed Potatoes for Occupiers and Cultivators of Land in Ireland.
Sir W. HARCOURT: I beg to give notice that on Thursday I shall ask leave to bring in a Bill to establish Local Control over the Traffic in Intoxicating Liquors.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. BRYCE, Aberdeen, S.): I beg to give notice that on Thursday I shall ask leave to bring in a Bill to facilitate the Construction of Light Railways in Great Britain.
THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Sir GEO. O. TREVELYAN, Glasgow, Bridgeton.): I beg to give notice that on Thursday I shall ask leave to introduce a Bill to make further Provision for County Government in Scotland and other purposes.
THE SECRETARY TO THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Sir W. FOSTER, Derby, Ilkeston): On behalf of the President of the Local Government Board, I have to give notice that on Thursday he will ask leave to bring in a Bill to prohibit Plural Voting at Parliamentary Elections, and to provide for taking the Polls at Parliamentary Elections on One Day.

THE QUEENS SPEECH.
MR. SPEAKERreported Her Majestys Speech, made that day, by Her Chancellor, and read it to the House.

ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO HER MAJESTYS MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
MR. C. E. H. HOBHOUSEmoved the Address in reply to the Queens Speech. He said: Mr. Speaker,—The fact that the Speech to which I rise to move an Address contains no lengthened reference to foreign affairs, is a matter of congratulation to the House. The vast-ness of our Empire renders it almost necessary, from time to time, that we should come in contact, in some part of the world or another with a number of foreign countries. We have lately been in contact with the French nation in West Africa, and the delimitation of our territory there has been satisfactorily settled by an agreement recently made
58
between the two Powers, which must be gratifying, both to ourselves and the French nation, for whom we entertain friendly feelings. Sir, in Europe at the present moment everything appears to make for peace, despite the fact that, since this House last met, the greatest guarantee for peace that this generation has seen—I mean the late Czar of Russia—has passed away; and while in him all lovers of peace have lost a great security for the continuance of European peace, and we lament his death and feel for the nation which has suffered so severe a loss, it must be welcome to us that his successor should, at the commencement of his reign, have evinced so friendly a feeling towards Great Britain. While the prospects of peace in Europe are bright, it is unfortunate that there should be in the East war going on between China and Japan—a war that must be fraught not merely with distress to them, but danger to our own commerce in those parts; and it is desirable, both in the interests of China and Japan and ourselves, that by either the mutual good sense of the two nations concerned, or the friendly intervention of some neutral Power, or the forbearance of the victorious nation, an end should be put to strife which, if it continue for a lengthened period, may lead to complications and difficulties, the end of which is not easily foreseen. Passing from this brief glance at foreign affairs to say something about domestic legislation, the first point that strikes one in reading the Queens Speech is a matter of congratulation, not merely to the Ministry, but to all parties in this House—that the policy of conciliation and clemency so successfully pursued during the past three years should have brought about a state of affairs so satisfactory that crime in Ireland has diminished to an extent hitherto unknown in the annals of the country. It must be, I think, satisfactory that, while Ireland was so agitated and disturbed some few years ago, it should, when the rule of restraint which formerly prevailed has been relaxed, have become so tranquil. In developing that policy of conciliation, some measure dealing with the Land Question is essentially necessary. If I may say so, the peculiarity which will mark the Bill shortly to be introduced will be that, while other Land Bills relating to Ireland

59
have been the result, if not perhaps the cause, of great divergence of opinion, the present Bill will be recommended to this House, not merely by one section of the Irish Party, but by the almost unanimous opinion and consent of the Irish representatives. It will receive not merely the cordial goodwill and cooperation of the Southern and Western parts of Ireland, but the assent of the Northern province of Ulster as well. To continue and complete our recent policy towards Ireland, I say there is no responsible man, in this House or out of it, who does not feel that some measure of relief must be given to the Evicted Tenants. The Bill which came before the House last Session, was condemned on one side of the House as extravagant, and on the other as inadequate. But whatever may be the character of the present Bill, legislation for the Evicted Tenants is urgently, I might almost say-desperately, needed. Passing from the consideration of Irish affairs, we come to the question of the Church Establishment in Wales. The revision of the connection between Church and State in Wales is imperative. In this House there are fifteen-sixteenths of the Welsh representatives bound by every pledge of honour to press for it. Two out of every three of the Welsh electors have voted in the hope that this question may be favourably considered from their point of view. And it is necessary and right that the Government should enter on the question not with the idea of maintaining any particular religious institution, and certainly not in the hope of diffusing any particular religious feeling, but rather that they should deal with it in the hope of allaying discontent, and satisfying what I think may be considered the lawful wishes and aspirations of the Welsh people. I would go even further and say, that when this question is settled in the direction indicated by the Bill, of which notice has recently been given, the Church in Wales—with which I am quite in sympathy as far as its religious needs are concerned—will not be weakened but strengthened. To continue the consideration of the legislative program me for England, I wish to refer to the question of the abolition of plural voting. I have never been able to understand on what principle the system of plural voting is
60
maintained. It cannot be on the consideration of wealth. It is well known that a man might own considerable properties in houses, land, or industrial undertakings, which could be concentrated in one constituency. The owner, too, of a small property, or perhaps only the nominal owner, might find an arbitrary line divides this small property into two, and places one in one electoral area and another in another. The richer man, who is supposed to have "a stake in the country," as it is called, finds himself reduced to one vote at a Parliamentary election, but the less wealthy obtains two or three because of the arbitrary division of his property. It seems to me that is not logical. Then it is not direct or indirect taxation which entitles a man to a Parliamentary vote. It is well known that a considerable class of the population, who pay no taxes directly or indirectly, have obtained votes. It seems to me that the reason why a vote should be given to a man is, that he may take some share in the consideration and creation of the laws under which he must exist. If that be so it stands to reason that a rich man ought not to have a greater voting power than a poor one has. The one ground upon which a citizen should be entitled to exercise the franchise is that he has given proof of his citizenship by having resided for a certain term in a particular town or in a particular county, and in that case he ought to have a vote for the particular locality in which he resides and for no other. I am glad to see the reference that is made in the most gracious Speech from the Throne, and the proposal that is put forward for the relief of that important industry by facilitating the construction of Light Railways. We know that it is impossible to aid Agriculture in a more important way than by bringing the producer and the consumer into more close communication and by enabling the produce to be brought to market in the most expeditious and cheapest manner. By the Local Government Act of last year provision was made for the creation of small holdings, and I trust that by the formations of these light railways we shall secure the profitable working of those holdings by enabling their produce to be brought to market at cheap rates. We are not yet aware, of the precise

61
method by which Her Majestys Government proposal is to be carried into effect, but at any rate the construction of these light railways will provide work for the large amount of labour that is at present unfortunately unemployed. In concluding my remarks, in the course of making which I trust that I have not unduly occupied the time of the House, I should wish to refer to the two measures relating to Scotland which are indicated from the Speech from the Throne. The one is the measure for the completion of the system of Local Government in Scotland, and the other is to bring about further legislation in respect of the Crofter population of that country. Both those measures I trust will prove of material benefit to the community living in the northern part of this Island. I beg to move the Address in answer to the most gracious Speech from the Throne.
*MR. W. H. HOLLANDsaid, I rise to second the Address which my hon. Friend has just moved with so much ability, and in doing so I feel that I can rely upon the kindly forbearance and consideration of this House which is usually extended to those who occupy my position. We may congratulate ourselves that the Treasury Bench is so well filled and that its occupants have come here in such good spirits to discharge their arduous task. It is somewhat of a surprise that this should be the case in view of the alarming bulletins which we have seen in the newspapers of late concerning the misfortunes which have overtaken them. On one day they were said to be in a state of rapid decline; on the next they had so far recovered their strength and vigour that they were fighting amongst themselves like cats and dogs. Their physical condition was grave, but their mental ailments were graver still; so that the surprise to-day is all the more agreeable to find them looking so well equipped for the work which lies before them. Turning from the Treasury Bench to the Front Opposition Bench, we see a great gap there. By the death of Lord Randolph Churchill there has been extinguished a bright constellation from the firmament of this House. I had not myself the advantage of being a Member during the too short period of his Leadership, but I hoar on all hands that
62
the impression he then produced was altogether favourable, and that he won golden opinions by his courtesy and tact. With all our differences, Mr. Speaker, important as they are in substance, and ardent as they are in form, we are not blind to the good qualities of our opponents. Lord Randolph Churchill had many. A dashing Leader; brilliant in debate; of fearless courage, resolute will, ready wit—these were great as well as good qualities. And when great qualities are consecrated to the service of the State, their loss becomes a Nations loss, even in this case an Empires loss. And this Parliament as representing that Empire is poorer to-day in consequence. Her Majestys Government have referred to the friendly relations that exist between this country and foreign nations. Happily we are accustomed to such announcements, but the peace which we are now enjoying is largely due to the greatability with, which our foreign affairs are managed by the Foreign Office, and to the way Ambassadors and representatives at foreign Courts conduct their delicate and difficult tasks. I am sure that in all quarters of this House the hope is entertained that this happy condition of things may long continue. I think that it is one of the finest features of our political life that, although we may be divided by very sharp lines with regard to our internal affairs, yet when we approach the consideration of our foreign affairs we remember not whether we are Liberal or Tory, but that we are citizens of a mighty Empire, whose glory we are resolved, by Gods help, shall not be dimmed. I entirely concur with the observations which have fallen from my hon. Friend with reference to the death of the late Czar of Russia. In him the world has lost a great ruler, whose life afforded us one of the greatest securities for peace. Moreover, he was closely connected with our own Royal Family, upon whom no sorrow can fall without their receiving the sympathy of all loyal subjects. Great hopes are entertained in regard to his successor, with whom the most cordial relations have been established. It is happily not the case that increased cordiality with one Power involves diminished cordiality with some other Power. Cordiality is not a commodity of fixed and limited amount. Otherwise

63
it would be true that the more you gave to one, the less there would he left for another. But in point of fact I believe, Mr. Speaker, that a wise and considerate diplomacy can increase the cordiality of our relations all round. I am sorry to be obliged to refer to the lamentable war that at the present time is devastating China, and on grounds both of humanity—in which all Nations have perhaps an equal share; and of commerce—in which no Nation has a share for a moment comparable to our own—we can only hope that it will be brought to a speedy close. Her Majestys Government are to be commended for having promoted a concert with other Powers and for the vigilance they are continually exercising in this important matter. Public opinion has been deeply stirred by the occurrences which have lately taken place in Armenia, and it is satisfactory to know that the Government are fully alive to the responsibilities which have been thrown upon them by the Treaty of Berlin and other Treaties. We have a right to expect that the presence of delegates from Great Britain, France, and Russia will ensure that the excesses shall be thoroughly investigated, that the offenders shall be adequately punished, and that the witnesses shall be fully and effectively protected. Reference is made in the Speech to the Estimates of the coming year. Those Estimates will be of peculiar interest in view of the great fiscal changes which were made in the course of last Session. Then comes the "Bill of Fare" for the Session. I am sure the House will agree that it is by no means a scanty one. It contains many familiar dishes. Some of them indeed have proved to be a kind of pièce de résistance in previous Sessions. I will not ask why it shall be necessary to introduce and reintroduce some measures Session after Session in this way, because the reply would be of too controversial a character for the present occasion. First, there comes the case of Ireland. I appeal to the Leader of the Opposition, that surely it cannot, under any circumstances, be accounted discreditable to the present Chief Secretary, that crime in Ireland has fallen to the lowest ebb ever placed upon record. I think I might appeal to the House, which contains on both sides many capable statesmen,
64
whether it is not wise to use the present time of quiet, in order to settle, in a calm and just spirit, the thorny and passion-provoking question of Irish land. Next, there is a course provided for dealing with the Church Establishment in Wales, and I think that the least controversial remark that I can make on that topic is to ask whether, when a Welsh measure is demanded persistently and consistently throughout along series of years, it is not in the interests of representative Government, when it is demanded by almost the unanimous voice of the Welsh Representatives, that this measure should be met with consideration and attention at the hands of the House. The next course provided is one for which many are hungering—or, perhaps more correctly, thirsting—namely, a new Liquor Bill. This Houses previous Liquor Bills have, for some reason or other, not been paid. Whether they have been too long or too heavy I need not say. In regard to the new Liquor Bill we understand, from the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer the other day at Derby, that some alteration is to be made in the Bill, and that there is to be provided a sort of half-way house, not for purposes of refreshment, but for the votes of the people; and under this new measure it seems likely that a total abstainer may vote for prohibition; if he so choose, and a moderate man may vote for a reduction in the number of licences, if he prefer this course. I think that this additional option will mean a great improvement in the measure, and will be likely to enlarge the utility of the Bill, and ought to secure, in my opinion, the support of all sorts of Temperance reformers, of whom I understand even the Trade contains many. Another dish to be served up is Returning Officers Expenses. Increased Labour Representation in this House is generally desired; but these charges constitute an initial and often an insuperable barrier to its accomplishment, and I think that the introduction of this Bill is but the natural sequence of the Resolution passed by the House, on May 25 last. These measures constitute a somewhat large Bill of Fare, and if any course is not very well cooked, and done to a turn, we may be sure that hon. Gentlemen opposite, with their critical and fastidious palates,

65
will turn up their noses at it. I do not believe, however, they will have reason to complain, as the courses will be prepared by a first-class chef. The keynote of Her Majestys Most Gracious Speech from the Throne is, concerted action abroad—in China and in Armenia; and conciliation at home—in Ireland and in Labour Disputes. And in my humble judgment these are the best signs of good statesmanship; and I do not think that the Admiralty and the War Office with all their resources contain in their armoury such strong weapons as concerted action in regard to Foreign Affairs and conciliation in Home Affairs. This Assembly is now in a calm and peaceable frame of mind, but none can say how long this will last: it is always possible for a Session to come in like a lamb, but to go out like a lion. But whether there be calm or storm before us, hon. Gentlemen opposite wont think any the worse of us when I say that, so long as the Government continue to show unflinching determination, unfailing courage, and unwavering purpose in giving effect to the mandate of the electors—[Opposition Laughter, cries of "Oh!" and Ministerial Cheers]—and we understand it, because the mandate was ours and not the property of hon. Gentlemen on the other side—so long may they rely on the loyal and hearty support of hon. Members on this side of the House.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: Mr. Speaker,—The Mover and Seconder of the Address have performed, with tact and ability, a task which I always think one of the most delicate and difficult which can be thrown on the shoulders of Members of this House. I was especially grateful for some words which fell from the hon. Member who seconded the Address, in regard to the great loss which the public and this House have recently sustained by the death of Lord Randolph Churchill. Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member spoke, as it was right and proper that he should, only as a public representative of the people, not connected with Lord Randolph Churchill; with no ties of friendship, but merely giving his judgment upon that brilliant and too short career which has now unhappily been brought to a close. I thank him for the words which he let fall on this subject, and I am sure that they met an echo in the heart of every
66
man in this House. For myself I cannot regard this merely as a loss to the House and to the country, for I was connected by ties of intimate friendship with Lord Randolph Churchill through the whole period of his active public life, and to me, therefore, his death means not merely the loss of an eminent and most distinguished Member of this House, but of a friend with whom almost all the events of my public life are intimately bound up. I entirely agree with what fell from the hon. Gentleman when he said that the genius and ability of Members of this House are not the property of one Party alone. The dignity and honour of the House, its credit and authority with the country, largely depend upon the fact that we have succeeded in producing arid in educating a continuous succession of able public men, to whom can safely be intrusted the affairs of Parliament and of the country. The loss we have sustained, from this point of view, is great indeed, and I cannot hope that it will be easily supplied. I pass from this question to subjects more intimately connected with the Speech from the Throne; and, as following, in the usual way, that order which those responsible for that Speech have observed, I will say a word, in the first place, upon the subject of Foreign Affairs. Sir, it will be in the recollection of all Members in this House that, during the two and a half years that have elapsed since the present Government came into Office, we have never thought it consistent with our duty to the country to endeavour to turn any incidents that have arisen in that period in connection with the Foreign Policy of the Government to any Party account. I do not say that as desiring to claim any special credit or any special patriotism for the present Opposition. But I do lay it down as a general principle, which, in my judgment, all Oppositions ought to pursue, that, when the Government of the day is, so far as can be judged, endeavouring to the best of its ability to carry out objects which are held by both Parties to be objects of importance to the country, no good is done by discussing all the particular modes by which those ends are, to be, attained. In saying this, it must not be taken, of course, that we have admired every Diplomatic step which Her Majestys

67
Government have pursued during the past two years. If it had been necessary or desirable I might have pointed to certain transactions in regard to Siam, and their policy with respect to certain treaties in Africa; but I do not think that the Government is more likely to steer a judicious course if the Opposition were always to be putting their hand on the tiller. So long, therefore, as the objects of the Government are objects with which we agree, and believe to be sound in the interests of the country, the Government would, in my opinion, not do better but worse were we to adopt a course of criticism which might lead to misunderstanding abroad—a course which must embarrass a Foreign Minister, and which would not be likely to guide him; and we shall, therefore, abstain in the future from doing anything which, in our judgment, will in any way interfere with the conduct of the details of the Foreign Policy which the Government have rightly pursued. I make this statement of the general principles on which we act, because I do not mean to say one single word upon the first four paragraphs of the Speech; and I wish it to be distinctly understood, by all who hear me, that it is not because we do not think that they are matters of great public interest and importance, on which we may have our opinions, were it desirable to express them, but because I am convinced that harm and not good would be done by any public utterances which might very easily cause misunderstanding abroad, and cannot easily do much good at home. I, therefore, Sir, leave the first part of the Speech without uttering a single word of comment, advice, or warning with regard to any of the important matters with which it deals, and will proceed to ask a question with regard to the sentence which deals with the Estimates for the year. I do not know whether it was an intentional omission, or a regard for what I have no doubt has been our practice so far, but I noticed that there is no mention of the Navy, or of the expenditure on the Navy. The question of Naval Policy, if my memory does not fail me, stands at the present moment thus: Last year the Government announced a large, I do not say too large, far from it, but a large measure of Naval construction,
68
together with a considerable amount of expenditure on dockyards. The amount that was actually quoted, or put on the Estimates for last year, was adequate for the objects stated; but everybody acquainted with these matters is aware that the full pressure of the expenditure upon ships does not come in the year in which those ships are laid down, but in the succeeding years, whilst the ships are in course of construction. Under the system pursued by the late Government, there could be no question but that when the policy of Naval construction was begun it would be pressed on with the utmost possible speed until it was completed. I do not mean to argue whether our system or the Governments is the best, but it will be admitted by the Government themselves that theirs, at all events, does not carry with it that absolute necessity. It is in the power of the Treasury, or of the Government for the time being, if it happens to suit their financial policy, to slacken off the work which has been begun and not to press forward the building programme. I should like to have an assurance from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the fact that the Government is not bound by statute, as it were, to press on the work of Naval construction with the utmost rapidity is not going to be used by them as an ex-use for slackening off the work, and if we may expect that the full amount of money required this year for pressing on the Naval programme will be proposed by the Government, and ultimately, no doubt, voted by Parliament. I have no reason to doubt that the Government mean to carry out that policy, but I think, in view of the silence of the Queens Speech on the subject, it would be desirable that the House should be left in no doubt on the point, as it is of incomparably more importance to the Empire and the country than any other single question touched upon in the Queens Speech. Before coming to the programme of Domestic legislation I notice that there is a paragraph, which was very properly referred to by both Mover and Seconder of the Address, dealing with the diminution of agrarian offences in Ireland.
MR. J. MORLEY: Of all offences.
MR. A. J. BALFOUR: How far this improved condition of things is due to

69
the action of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland I do not venture to pronounce, but that he is to be congratulated, and the whole House is to be congratulated, upon the happy state of things announced will, I think, be admitted as cordially on this as upon the other side of the Table. I noticed that the Mover of the Address, in a speech which was certainly not marked by any controversial bitterness, suggested that the improvement in Ireland was due to the policy of clemency—so he described it—which has been pursued by the present Chief Secretary. There was, perhaps, just a slight touch of controversial imputation in that observation, but I do not mean to take up seriously the challenge thus thrown down. I will only point out that as the diminution of crime appears, by the Chief Secretarys interruption, to refer to every species of crime and not merely to agrarian crime—although, I do not imagine that that policy of clemency has anything to do with pickpockets—there are other causes at work than those to which he has referred. The fact is that the improved condition in Ireland has not been going on merely for the last three years, but is the culmination of a continuous process dating back now for eight or ten years. Now, Sir, I come to domestic legislation. I do not mean to deal with these Bills in detail; some of them are very old friends. Only two of them, I think, are entirely new, one relating to a very old subject, the relations between Landlord and Tenant in Ireland, the other to the government of the Metropolis. With regard to the first of these measures, I notice that the paragraph dealing with the subject is ambiguous in its terms, and nothing fell from either Mover or Seconder to clear up the doubt which the language of the Speech from the Throne had suggested. The paragraph may be read as meaning that in this Bill are to be introduced clauses dealing with the evicted tenants. I should like very much to know from the Chancellor of the Exchequer or the Chief Secretary whether that paragraph refers to two Bills or one Bill; whether, in other words, there is to be one Bill dealing with the ordinary relations between Landlord and Tenant in Ireland and with the evicted tenants, or whether
70
these two subjects are to be embodied in two separate measures. If they are to be dealt with in one measure, all I can say is, if the history of the past is to afford any guide for the future, that as there are no measures ever brought before this House which more naturally and more necessarily beget difficulty and prolonged discussion than Bills dealing with Irish land, if you are going to include in a measure of that kind a set of controversial clauses dealing with evicted tenants, which last year formed the subject of a separate measure, it appears to me you are unduly weighing any proposals you may lay before us, and that those who wish to see the Irish! land question dealt with in a spirit of practical legislation will have good reason to complain of your proceeding. The Irish Land Question has been in process of being finally settled, not only during the whole course of my Parliamentary career, but long before that course began, and sometimes the fact that Ireland is quiet, and more often the fact that Ireland is not quiet, has been given as the reason why at last this difficult and complicated problem should receive its quietus. If the measure is really settlement for all time of the Irish Land Question, it will be the greatest legislative feat ever performed in this House. I do not ask any questions about such familiar subjects as Welsh Disestablishment or Liquor Traffic, but I should like to ask one question with regard to the paragraph dealing with light railways and the agricultural depression. I think the Government have done well to mention this subject in the Queens Speech, as that depression is now reaching the rank of a great national tragedy, and I do not believe there is any man who knows anything about the state of our agriculture who does not contemplate its future prospects with something approaching absolute dismay. But I confess I should like to know a little more about this plan of light railways Are the Government still of opinion that these railways should be constructed at the expense of the rates? It has been my fortune to have had more to do with light railways in Ireland than any other man in this House, and if those railways have been a success it is because the Government of the day kept inflexibly in view two fundamental principles.

71
One was that the chance of a light railway paying its expenses—or being, on the other hand, a burden to those who had to do with it—was enormously diminished if that light railway was placed under separate local management and not under the general supervision and management of some great line of railway. You double the staff; you double the expense; you promote jealousy and friction in every direction; and, as it were, from every pore you waste money, of which there is very little to waste, believe me, out of the profits of the railway you construct. That is the first principle. Our second and even more fundamental principle was this, that no local cost should be involved in the construction of the railway; that is to say, that no burden, permanent or otherwise, should be thrown upon the rates of the locality through which the railway passes. I am as desirous as any man in this House to see those parts of the country which are not at present served by railways supplied with the necessary transport accommodation. I agree with the Seconder of the Address when he said that agriculture never was carried on under more hopeless circumstances than in those parts of the country where the producer could not carry his goods to the market. But if this is going to be an excuse for throwing a new burden on the ratepayers of districts already staggering under the load of local taxation, scarcely able at present prices to make agriculture a paying concern at all—if they are, in addition, to be burdened with rates for railways to serve districts that are going out or that have gone out of cultivation, then, I say, that any pretended boon like that suggested in this paragraph will weigh down an already sinking industry and will be a burden and not an assistance to those it is intended to help. I am sure that on that the Government can, without going into the details of their measure, reassure us, and we shall hail with satisfaction any words that fall from them which will convince us that the gift which they propose to give to the farmers and labourers of this country is not a pure and absolute delusion. I do not think it worth while asking any more questions about the details of your legislation, but I cannot sit down without saying something about your legislation as
72
a whole. I wonder at the gravity with which the Mover and Seconder of the Address went patiently through this long list of measures, not one of which, on the authority of its own friends, has the slightest chance of becoming law. These paragraphs in the Queens Speech dealing with your legislative programme are a farce, and they are known to be a farce by those who propose them. I will not say that this programme is a mere music-hall advertisement, for it is not nearly so amusing; I will not say that it is the announcement of an academic course of discussions, for it is not nearly so instructive. But although it is not like either of these things I will tell the House what it is not like also. It is not like the Agenda Paper of a business assembly. I believe it is the custom—at all events it was when I had a practical connection with these matters—for the gentlemen who have got to move and second the Address to take counsel with the heads of the Government—the Prime Minister in the House of Lords and the Leader of the House in the Commons—as to the line they should take on the various measures announced in the Queens Speech. What kind of a conversation I should like to know was that which took place on this occasion between the Mover and the Seconder and the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House? We have been vouchsafed by those important gentlemen with a great many announcements during the recess as to what they thought of this very legislation and its prospects of passing. One of the Bills most highly praised by the Seconder of the Address was that which promises to deal with the Liquor Traffic. Upon that subject we have had two pronouncements from the Prime Minister—I mean two statements have been made by him. One is that he does not think so much will come of it if it were to pass as its supporters—meaning, I suppose, the Chancellor of the Exchequer—suppose. The other proposition was that it had not the slightest chance of becoming law, not so much because of the wicked House of Lords or because of an obstructive Opposition, but because of the

73
inherent difficulties of the case. This is what he says:—
"I do not build such high hopes upon this Bill as some of its supporters. You will never deal with this question in a piecemeal fashion."
I do not quote the whole passage, but by piecemeal fashion he means by this Bill, as is quite evident from the context. He goes on—
"If you want to grapple with this enormous question, all the force of a threat Parliamentary majority, all the time a full Parliamentary Session can give you, will be required."
Have you got the full time of a Parliamentary Session to begin with? This precious measure, this instalment, comes at the end of a list which includes an Irish Land Act, a Disestablishment Bill, and an Evicted Tenants Bill. However rapid may be our decisions on these important questions, they will not leave a full Session to discuss the Local Veto Bill, and I assume, therefore, that one of the conditions mentioned by the Prime Minister for the success of this measure is absent. What is the other condition he mentioned? A great Parliamentary majority. Have you got a great Parliamentary majority? Are you in the way of getting a great Parliamentary majority? And if you have neither got nor expect to get it, then I want to know why we are asked to go through what the Prime Minister himself declares to be nothing more than a legislative farce? So much for the Local Veto Bill. Are you better off with the Welsh Church Bill? The Gentleman chiefly concerned in the Welsh Church Bill is the Home Secretary. I am not sure that I have the quotation, nor do I think perhaps that it is worth while bothering the House with it. But I recollect the substance of it well enough. He gave a perfectly candid statement to his constituents with regard to the length of time which, without obstruction, a Bill like the Welsh Church Bill must necessarily take in going through the House. Then, when he had finished that, he burst out into an eloquent lamentation over the fact that when all this Parliamentary time had been expended upon that measure, you would have done no more than you would do by attempting to raise a crop from the seashore. You would be ploughing the sand of the seashore. Are we called hero to plough the sand of the seashore? Is it a worthy
74
policy for the Government to pursue to advise Her Majesty to call Parliament together and to go through all the ancient ceremonial connected with the assembly of the representatives of the people for no other purpose than to do that which they themselves confess can end in nothing but vanity—in the words of the Prime Minister, to waste the time of the House in an absolutely "bootless and fruitless process"? I respected the Mover and Seconder of the Address, and lamented the false position in which they found themselves. They are asked to recommend us to begin this bootless and fruitless process, arid it certainly seems to me that a greater step towards the degradation of Parliament never has been taken than that which the Government now take. They call us here not to pass laws, but to further some obscure Party strategical purpose. That is not the use to which, in my judgment, this Imperial Assembly should be placed. You have announced your impotence, your legislative impotence, on every platform in the country. You have shown your sores to lamenting audiences of your followers in Scotland, in England, and in Wales. What is the source of this weakness? You say it is the House of Lords. [Ministerial Cheers and Laughter.] Let me tell the hon. Gentleman who assents to that statement that the House of Lords could not, if it would, resist the will of the people of this country. And if the House of Lords shall succeed in resisting your will, it is because you do not represent the will of the people. I remember, unless my memory altogether deceives me, that triennial Parliaments were part of the Newcastle Programme. I could imagine the Government saying that a Triennial Bill is not yet passed, and that, if a Government had reason to believe that it has the people of the country behind it, there is no reason why it should give up the reins of Office until this Triennial legislation should actually be passed into law. I assume, therefore, that the Government, in giving themselves a lease of life longer than they think appropriate for any other Government, have some ground for supposing that they, above other Governments, are blessed with the rising force of popular passion behind them. They may have some knowledge not vouchsafed

75
to humbler mortals with regard to the feelings of the country. I never myself venture to prophesy on these questions, for I frankly admit that the signs of popular favour and disfavour are not always easy to read, and may sometimes be mistaken. But I do not think a man could get up on either side of the House and say, that if it be the proper Constitution of this country that any Government not sure, after three years of Office, that it has the people of the country behind it, ought to dissolve, that duty is laid upon this Government above every other Government of which we know in recent times. Never has a Government attempted to pass such revolutionary measures upon so small a capital. They will never be able, even if they last the whole term of their possible career, to pass measures such as they now propose, to this House, with no more majority than the small majority they have at present, and the secret of that impotence, which they are the first and loudest to proclaim, is not that there is a House of Lords in political disagreement with them, but that they have not in the House of Commons at the present time that power behind them which is required if measures of this kind are to have the smallest chance of passing. From this House there is but one appeal, to the source of all political strength in this country, and that appeal they are unwilling or afraid to make. In my opinion, the new departure which the Government have chosen to make with regard to legislation, this deliberately announced intention to bring forward measures which they know cannot pass—to be brought forward, I suppose, for some purpose of self-advertisement—this departure, I say, is so grave an attack upon the functions of this House that before this Debate comes to a conclusion I trust some Member of authority will move an Amendment which will give us an opportunity of recording our judgment upon the subject.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (SIR W. HARCOURT, Derby): My first task, which is a most agreeable one, is to thank my hon. Friends the Mover and Seconder of the Address for the able manner in which they have discharged their duties. Their speeches were characterised by great clearness and, on the whole, great moderation.
76
Then, through the greater part of the observations of the right hon. Gentleman, I was going myself to pay him the compliment of saying that his speech was most moderate; but, like the Irishman of whom one has heard, he thought it necessary to keep a gallop for the end against his adversary, and that part of his speech was indeed of a much more lively character. I am glad that the Seconder of the Address referred to the loss this House has sustained in the death of Lord R. Churchill. Those are sentiments with which we on these Benches desire to associate ourselves. We, feel that in the loss of Lord R. Churchill this House misses one of its principal ornaments. There was something original in his character; there was an independence in his ideas; there was a brightness and a force in his language which attracted to him those by whom he was most strongly opposed. Like the right hon. Member, I speak of him as a personal friend of many years standing, as well as a political adversary, and I feel sure that I interpret aright the sentiments of gentlemen on this side of the House when I say that we are saddened by the thought that we shall see him amongst us no more. There is another topic of a melancholy character which was referred to with great justice and wisdom by my two hon. Friends, and that is the death of the late Emperor of Russia, which I regard as a great calamity to the world. I am glad they referred to it, because I am quite sure that the expression by the House of Commons of its sympathy in these events greatly contributes to the friendship and peace of nations. The late Tsar rendered inestimable, service to the great cause of peace throughout the world. There have been times, no doubt, when it was thought that Russia was a disturbing element in Europe. That certainly was not the case during the reign of the late Emperor. His lofty character, his determined will, and his enlightened love of peace were among the chief guarantees for that gretest of all blessings to mankind, and it is in that capacity that I think that we are specially called upon to do honour to his memory. Happily, this great quality which he possessed, this virtue which was so conspicuous in his reign, has been inherited by and has descended to his

77
successor, and we sincerely trust that the happy dawn of an auspicious reign will continue the blessings of peace to mankind. To me it is a melancholy reflection that while we confidently believe, and I think I may say I know, that every Ruler in Europe and every Government in Europe ardently and earnestly desire peace, we should be called upon to be armed to the teeth as if we were in the presence of instant and universal war. That is not the doing of the Rulers of Nations; it is not the doing of Governments. I was much struck by a declaration made in the autumn of last year by Count Kalnoky, the able Minister of Austria, who said—
"It is not to us that you should come if you want disarmament, but you should go to those mischievous and irresponsible persons who take upon themselves day after day and month after month to sow dissension and jealously, and to preach hatred amongst the nations of the world."
It is from this that arises that spirit of alarm which makes it necessary, as I say, that we should assume the attitude that all the nations have been apparently compelled to take up. I think these are matters upon which it is well that we should reflect. It is utterly untrue, I believe, that there is at this moment a single Government in Europe that is contemplating or desiring war. That is a great blessing; and when a great monarch like the late Emperor of Russia puts himself forward as one of the greatest advocates of peace, it is but right that we, who all profess to be friends of peace, should render a tribute to his memory. With reference to foreign policy, I need say no more. I thought, however, the observations made by the right hon. Gentleman opposite were very weighty and just, and I pay the same tribute to the present Opposition that he has rendered to the late Opposition—namely, that we never sought in foreign affairs the means for fractious attacks upon the Administration. It is that spirit which is a great guarantee of peace, because a Government may be driven by fractious operations of that kind into a position in which the peace of the world is endangered. The right hon. Gentleman has challenged me on the subject of the Navy, and asks why it was not mentioned in the Speech. It was mentioned last year because the Government
78
were about to make large and new proposals; but in the present year they are carrying out those proposals loyally and fully, and we therefore thought it unnecessary to make any further statement on the subject. Then the right hon. Gentleman touched, with caution and discretion, I thought, on the question of the condition of Ireland. He said that the, fact that Ireland exhibited a lower rate of crime than had ever been recorded before was only the natural consequence of the policy which he represents. [MR. BALFOUR made a gesture of dissent.] I am not going to enter into any dispute at the present time—I daresay we shall hear a good deal about this subject before we have done—but we on this side of the House hold different views as to the government of Ireland from those of the right hon. Gentleman. We believe that the policy which we have declared, and to which we adhere, is the real cause of the tranquility of Ireland, and that the people of that country now entertain hope, and that they place confidence in the pledges of the Liberal Party. We maintain the establishment of Home Rule as a primary policy. Did you suppose we were going to recede from it? Have we ever shown any signs of receding? We believe that a wise system of self-government is the only permanent basis upon which a reconciliation of the ancient feuds between England and Ireland can be in the end effected. That is our belief; that is the ground of our policy, and we have pursued and shall continue to pursue that great aim. We shall persist in it. Whilst maintaining the necessary safeguards for the unity of the Empire, we shall labour to carry into effect a plan which shall be satisfactory to the Irish people and the Irish Representatives. [Opposition laughter.] Gentlemen opposite cheer ironically. Well, I have been asked to speak plainly, and I hope I have done so. With reference to Irish land legislation, the right hon. Gentleman asks whether there is to be one Bill or two Bills. All I can say at present is that we reserve our discretion in the matter. Then the right hon. Gentleman next referred, in language I do not think too strong, to the deplorable condition of the agricultural interest; but, Sir, I think that every man will feel that it was impossible

79
that we should come forward with a series of remedies for that agricultural depression, when there is sitting a most able and competent Commission. [Opposition cries of "Oh!"] Do you say it is not competent? I do not see the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Sleaford here. I do not know why you should say that Commission is not competent. It has upon it a number of gentlemen as distinguished and as capable of forming an opinion upon that subject as any in the country. We have received no recommendations from them as yet. I observed that the Duke of Devonshire the other day referred to the Commission, but did not give any idea which he himself entertained of what was to be done in the matter. He pointed out, I thought, with that great common-sense which always distinguishes that Statesman, that it was absolutely necessary that we should await the recommendations of that Commission. Then the right hon. Gentleman asks me some questions about light railways. There again I cannot go into financial reasons without anticipating what has before long to be stated by my right hon. Friend near me, and I should be embarrassing this debate by a side issue which I think is not desirable. The right hon. Gentleman then proceeded to refer to some of the main Bills in the Queens Speech, and he said: "You I know there is not the smallest chance of any of them passing into law." That is his position.
MR. BALFOUR: No. Your position.
SIR W. HARCOURT: Yes, that may be, but why do we think, and why does the right hon. Gentleman think, that none of these measures will pass into law? There is a Bill in which I have more confidence than he has, the Local Veto Bill, because when it comes to the issue I venture to say that the right hon. Gentleman will find that friends of that Bill sit, not only on this side of the House, but on that side. Therefore the words of the right hon. Gentleman upon that subject do not alarm me. But when he was dealing with that Bill he said— "Oh, it is coining after a lot of other Bills, and therefore there is no chance for it." That is taking credit to himself for those arts of procrastination in which the right hon. Gentleman and his friends are unquestionably past-masters. But
80
he came to another Bill, which he assumed was going to be the first Bill. Does he think, does he mean to say that that Bill will not pass the House of Commons? "No," he said, "not at all." That was not the view he took. He referred to a conversation he had with the Mover and Seconder of the Bill. I have not the same authority the right hon. Gentleman has, and which he exercises so freely, of knowing beforehand all the Bills the House of Lords is going to throw out.
MR. BALFOUR: Will the right hon. Gentleman allow me to interrupt him? I did not make one single prophecy of my own in the whole course of my speech. I relied entirely upon statements by Members of the Government, and principally the Prime Minister.
SIR W. HARCOURT: If the right hon. Gentleman referred to my statements, I have never said that none of these Bills will pass. He has asked my opinion, and my opinion is that most of these Bills will pass. He knows best whether he has ascertained and has authority for stating that if the Local Veto Bill passes the House of Commons, the House of Lords will throw it out. If that is so, he knows more about it than I do. But if the House of Lords does take that course, the view of the country will be taken upon it. Now, Sir, the right hon. Gentleman, as I have said, is in this position with regard to the House of Lords—that he can always fulfil his own prophecy, which is a very strong position for a prophet to occupy. He says, on the Welsh Bill, that we are ploughing the sand. [Opposition cries of "Asquith?"] Yes, I know; but why are we ploughing the sand? On this measure and on others, what is the real position the right hon. Gentleman takes his stand upon? It is this—that no Government ought to produce any measure which it does not know beforehand will be passed by the House of Lords. He says—and let the House mark this—
"If you introduce a Bill which you know beforehand never can be passed into law, then you are ploughing the sand, and you are degrading the House of Commons by introducing Bills which the House of Lords will not condescend to pass."
I wonder what would be the degradation

81
of the House of Commons, what would be the humiliation of this place if we accepted the principle of the right hon. Gentleman that before we lay a Bill—a Bill which we conceive to be just in itself, which we consider would be of advantage to the people of the country—we should say, "Will the House of Lords pass it?" That is the ploughing the sand with which the right hon. Gentleman taunts us. I was glad, at all events, to find that the right hon. Gentleman is a convert to triennial Parliaments. He says that Parliament ought to be dissolved at once; but I would submit to his consideration that a triennial Parliament rather assumes three Sessions, and this is the third Session of this Parliament. What he is in favour of apparently is biennial Parliaments. Why, on the principle of triennial Parliaments, he should attack us for endeavouring to carry out the legislation we think of advantage to the country in the third Session of the present Parliament I am utterly at a loss to understand. We know very well that to-night we are only on the preliminaries. The right hon. Gentleman is going to have an Amendment. He is quite right to have an Amendment. I was much afraid, in listening to his speech, that it was a gun which was filled up to the muzzle with powder, but in which there was no shot. At least, he has informed the House that he is going to have an Amendment, and we await, with as much curiosity as he awaits our revelations, his revelations upon that Amendment. I do not know that I ought to detain the House any longer. With most of these measures the House is familiar enough. They have been before the House and the country often, and will be before the House and the country until they are passed into law at the instance of the Liberal Party. Why are we to be reproached because these measures have been before the House and the country so long? If you are strong enough in the House of Commons to get rid of us, you will not get rid of these measures hereafter; and if you intend, with your permanent majority in the House of Lords, to resist the passing of measures of this character, if you say "You lay before, the country a miscellaneous programme," I would point, out that the country has pronounced in favour of
82
that programme. These are the measures which at the last election enabled us to turn your majority of 100 into a minority of 40. That was a pretty significant indication of the opinion of the country. As long as this Government, having been placed in power by a majority in the country even larger than in the House of Commons, remains in power, it is bound to pursue the measures to which it has pledged itself before the country, and we intend to do so until the House of Commons shall have pronounced condemnation upon us.
*MR. J. McCARTHY: Before dealing with the questions which are of so much interest to my friends and myself, I should like to join in the sympathy expressed by every one who has spoken of the death of Lord Randolph Churchill. I have had many opportunities of knowing Lord Randolph Churchill in this House, and I have had many chances of forming a knowledge of him outside the House. My friends and I can remember many sharp engagements in which we fought side by side with Lord Randolph Churchill, and we always found him a gallant knight. We knew, too, that he had much sympathy with our country, and we all feel that in him the country has lost a friend. Now, Sir, I wish to say a few words in reference to the question which naturally interests us most, I mean the question of Ireland, and the references to Ireland in the gracious Speech from the Throne. My friends and I are much gratified by the information given to the House in that Speech as to the diminution of crime, not only agricultural crime, but crime of all kinds, in Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman the Loader of the Opposition seemed in some way to wish to insinuate that it was his own particular policy which had caused this diminution of crime. I do not think history will exactly bear that out. I think the Chancellor of the Exchequer explained very fairly and very justly that it is to the fact that Ireland feels that, she has such strong friends in this country, and that she has hope in the English democracy, that the quietude and patience of the people of Ireland is to be attributed. We might have expected we should be told that, on some occasion at the earliest possible moment, a Bill would

83
be introduced to repeal the Coercion Act. That, I believe, would be a measure which would not absorb much time of the House; and it would even find some, sympathy, I venture to say, among the members on those (the Opposition) benches. I hope it is not too late now for the Government to turn their attention to that measure, whereby they would give another guarantee to Ireland that the reign of coercion and terror is over. I will go further and ask the Government whether the time has not come for a complete amnesty. I think that every possible reason would support the wisdom of the course I suggest. It would be taken in Ireland, and all over the world where there are Irishmen, as another proof of the generous purposes of the Government—of their desire to efface the memory of past struggles, and to allow Ireland to enter upon a new era, unembittered by recollections of political conflict. I will not go into arguments which have been adduced many times before, and may have to be adduced again; but I say there are many reasons for believing that the men now in prison were unfairly convicted. I would strongly appeal to the Government to make their policy still more welcome by adopting the suggestion I would make. The Government have told us we are going to have a Tenants Bill; but I think also that something ought to be done at once for the labourers of Ireland. Their case has been brought before the House over and over again, and yet nothing has been done for them. We look to the Government in hope and confidence to make a strenuous effort to improve the condition of these men. The Leader of the Opposition referred to the fact that Irish land legislation was going on long before the opening of his own career. I can remember Irish land measures in this House as far back as the days of Mr. Sharman Crawford. Why has it been so? Simply and solely because the landlord party in this House and the landlord party in the other House voted against every measure brought in for the relief of Irish Tenants, resisted all such proposals step by step, fought over them as long as they could, and thus this question has come down from generation to generation, and is not yet closed. I sincerely hope that before long the question will have, passed out
84
of the region of legislation into that of history. I would remind the Government that famine is creeping over many parts of Ireland. We hear of agricultural depression here in this country, but let me remind the Government and the House that what is called depression in England means starvation in Ireland. There are numbers of reasons to account for it. There are the poverty of our country and the fact that its resources are undeveloped. It may also be said that in Ireland there is not that generous spirit displayed by landlords towards tenants that we find in England. All these are considerations of the most pressing urgency. Famine is creeping over the land, and there are many ways in which the Government may act promptly and generously to avert the evils which threaten the country. As regards land and other legislation, they have the confidence of the Irish people; and that gives a new chance to the Government. Ireland is absolutely at peace; it is full of faith in what can be done by this Government. I believe that no administration in this country ever had so great a chance of carrying measures to promote peace and contentment in Ireland.
MR. G. C. T. BARTLEYsaid it was remarkable, considering the the strong language that had been used about the House of Lords by the Prime Minister and others, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not told them what was to be done with reference to that House; but the omission only showed that the main object of the Session was to be to maintain the majority of the Government and to keep them in office. In his speech at Cardiff the Prime Minister mentioned three or four measures; but it was remarkable that he forgot all about the Irish Land Bill, which now took the first place in the Queens Speech. It could only be inferred that after the speech at Cardiff, further pressure was put upon him by his Irish allies and supporters. It was, further, curious to observe the arrangement adopted that evening, from which it-appeared that the first measure to be brought in would be the Welsh Church Bill. It was quite clear that there was a good deal of friction between the Welsh Party and the Irish Party. The Government had to drive the two horses abreast and they had great difficulty in doing

85
so because of the rivalry between them; and it was about as much as the Government could manage to keep these two sections of their followers quiescent and to secure their support from day to day. It would be seen whether the Irish Party would be satisfied with this arrangement and whether the farce of last Session would be continued this with the result of the Government managing by the skin of its teeth to keep its majority and its place on the Treasury Bench. With regard to the Local Veto he had to put several questions last Session, and he always got the same answer; and no doubt it would be the same this Session. The late Prime Minister had said that a Local Veto Bill was little less than an imposture, and the Government were driven to bringing it forward simply to keep their followers together. As the Seconder of the Address said, it was a half-way house for securing the votes of the people; it was brought in with no other purpose than to keep faith with a certain section of the followers of the Government. This was an absolute farce, and the Temperance Party must feel that they were being made tools of by the Government. As a Londoner he must protest very much against the action of the Home Secretary in one matter connected with the Government of London, namely, the management of the business connected with the payment of the Judge of the County of London Sessions. It seemed to him to be a most unworthy position the Home Secretary had taken up. Although during the last three years he had refused his assent to the salary of the Judge, he had now agreed, at the dictation of the County Council, to recommend a certain salary, acknowledging that the salary had not been satisfactory. The proper and equitable management, of the Judicial Bench in London was of the highest importance; and for a Judge to be placed under the London County Council, and to be tabooed by the Council because he had not always acted as they wished, was a scandal to the name of justice, and ought to be put an end to without further delay. On the Conservative side they must protest against the farce of "One Man One Vote." It was proposed by a Government which knew perfectly well that it was only kept in Office by the unfair distribution
86
of political power throughout the United Kingdom. Last year some of the measures of the Government had to be got through by a majority of 10, yet, as a fact, England, "the predominant partner," was under-represented by no less than 20 votes, and if we had anything like a fair distribution of political power throughout the kingdom the present Government could not exist. They must protest, against any alteration in the system of voting until the anomaly he had referred to was done away with, and each person in the United Kingdom represented, as far as possible, the same political power. As to the Payment of Members, he hoped it would be resisted to the utmost. To throw the cost on the rates would be the most unpopular thing the Government could propose. Referring to the large number of measures which he said were "crammed" into the Queens Speech, the hon. Member remarked that Lord Rosebery had said in one of his recent speeches that they were put there as 'marks of sincerity and pledges of honesty." He was convinced of this—that they were inserted in the Queens Speech not with any idea of passing them, but solely that the Government might keep the various sections of their followers together. With regard to the agitation, against the House of Lords, Lord Rosebery was unable to arouse any enthusiasm on the subject, and every by-election showed that the country was more keen to return Conservatives than those who would abolish the House of Lords. Lord Rosebery possessed many advantages by being a Member of the House of Lords; in fact, he was the spoiled child of that House, yet he wish to abolish it. If he had not been a Peer he would never have been Prime Minister. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might have rocked him in his cradle before he thought of politics. Lord Rosebery would not have won the Derby, or been the millionaire he was, or Chairman of the London County Council, if he had not been a Peer. Yet he wished to do away with the House of Lords. The whole thing was a farce and a sham. Lord Rosebery was picked out for the very position he held because he was a Peer; he was assisted by the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere), who ran Truth on the scandal

87
of the aristocracy, but for whose existence the paper could not go on. Yet these were the men who wanted to do away with the House of Lords. The fact was, the present Government were in extreme difficulties. They knew that half-a-dozen votes would throw them out. They were anxious to find something the House of Lords would throw out, and in which they thought the country would resent their doing so. When the Home Rule Bill was thrown out by an enormous majority the country did not resent it; in fact, was relieved by its being thrown out. One of the prominent supporters of the Government (Mr. McEwan) had recently admitted that the proposal of Home Rule was a failure and a delusion. They knew the Government did not intend to introduce it again, and their supporters would unite in anything to prevent their doing so. The Government Finance Measure of last Session was a most complicated one, and it occupied a considerable time in discussion, although the supporters of Her Majestys Government, whether Irish, or Teetotallers, or Disestablishes, took no part in that discussion. The Government, not satisfied with having wasted so much valuable time, had made an attack upon the House of Lords. They found, however, that the attack would not answer, because the country wished to have a House of Lords; and because some of their supporters wished to become Lords themselves. The Government, in these circumstances, had thought it better not to mention the House of Lords in the Speech, and they had been compelled to content themselves by putting into it a few stale, humdrum measures, which they had no real hope of passing into law. The longer the present Government remained in Office the larger would be the majority against them at the next General Election, and therefore, in one view of the case, he should be sorry to see an immediate Dissolution. On the other hand, however, he objected to government by shams, and therefore he should rejoice to see the present Ministry turned out of Office. There were many pressing social matters which the Government ought to have given more prominence to in the Speech—such, for instance, as the condition of Agriculture and of Labour. Unless we could maintain the trade and commerce of the
88
country, nothing that Parliament could do would preserve our population from poverty and misery. Instead of bringing in a number of sham measures, the Government ought to have dealt with those great subjects, and have done their best to extend our manufactures and our output, and to widen the fields for English enterprise. The Government had run away from their pledges to bring in a measure of Home Rule, and the result would be that they would be brought face to face with their Irish supporters, and they would go out of Office with the general feeling that the Ministry had existed not for the good of the country, but of themselves alone.
*SIR A. K. ROLLITrose to say a few words on the important subject of conciliation in trade disputes, which had been only faintly referred to in the Queens Speech, and which could not be neglected without the most disastrous results to our manufactures and to the general community. It was our strikes and lock-outs which had been a principal cause of the alleged depression in trade, and which had added to the already heavy disadvantages under which we suffered in our competition with foreign countries. The strikes in the coal trade and in the docks at Hull had been the cause of suffering, and even of death, to large numbers of the population of that town, and they might have easily been prevented by some Board of Conciliation. The trade disputes in the winter of last year had far outnumbered those which had occurred in the previous year. Doubtless the Government had done something in a spasmodic way to put an end to those disputes, but more general action was necessary. A well-drawn measure dealing with the subject would receive the almost universal assent of the Members of both Houses of Parliament, who entertained no great divergence of opinion as to the general principles upon which such a measure should be based. Such a Bill should be voluntary in its character; should provide for an equal representation on the Board of the employers and employed; and should involve meditation rather than Arbitration; while it should not presume to fix the rate of wages in the future. A Bill of that kind, which had been prepared by the London Chamber of Commerce, had actually passed the other House of Parliament

89
with the support of the present Ministry. The experience furnished by foreign nations—for instance, that of the Conseils des prudhommes in France, which had settled 60,000 labour disputes last year—was entirely favourable to his proposal. He could assure the Government that the country felt most deeply on this question, and that the Trade Unions heartily supported the proposal. If the Government took up this subject they would effect a great social reform, and they might rely upon the entire support of the Opposition in the matter. He was glad that the Government had called a conference to discuss the subject of Light Railways, which would have the effect of bringing the producer and the consumer of agricultural produce into immediate contact, The localities would doubtless take a great interest in these light railways, and would recognize in them an assistance to agriculture. It was, however, only by a fuller introduction of the collective system and newer methods of culture that a remedy for agricultural depression was to be found. The light railways, if properly carried out, might be the means of doing much for the development of the country, and he wished to express his obligation to the President of the Board of Trade for this new departure. He hoped that they might look for a promise of an early measure on the subject of Deep Sea Fisheries, a question which touched the food and diet of the people, which, probably, had an ultimate bearing on the manning of our Navy, and for which Foreign Nations had legislated with advantage to themselves. He hoped that the work of the Sea Fisheries Committee of which he was a member would not be lost, but would he embodied in legislation, which would prove useful. He regretted the absence from the Queens Speech of any Registration Bill. This was a subject which could not too often be repeated until it passed, and the present state of our Electoral Laws was disfranchising instead of enfranchising. The insertion of a Registration Bill, Session after Session, was, therefore, a matter of great urgency. There need be no loss of legislative labours if the House only attended to its own procedure and did not trouble itself so much about the other
90
House, which, at any rate, did its business in an excellent manner. The procedure of the House of Commons should be simplified and rendered more in accordance with modern thought and practice, e.g., provision should be made for carrying measures over from Session to Session so as to avoid the scandal of throwing away the work of a whole Session. He hoped they would have the advantage of the presence of the Leader of the House on the next occasion when this matter was brought forward. If the two Front Benches meant business—and he sometimes doubted whether they did—there need no longer be the present records of wasted work.
MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSENsaid, that he rose to express his profound surprise at the way in which the agricultural interest had been treated in the Queens Speech. In the paragraph referring to this subject he could find no trace of any real intention to bring forward any measure of relief in mitigation of the distress now prevailing in the agricultural community, and, so far as he was able to judge the whole course of action of the Radical Party was adverse, inimical, and antagonistic to the agricultural interests. Yet whenever, as members or candidates, Radicals went before the agricultural constituencies they then discovered that it was the most important of our industries, and then it was that they promised the poor deluded voters all kinds of things. When they were elected there was not, however, one fad to which they would not postpone this greatest of all interests. The result of the Parish Councils Act had been, as he had predicted, to create ill-blood and dissension where none had previously existed; it had done no good to the labourers, who, moreover, did not want it; but it had had the effect of increasing the rates. Both parties were doubtless responsible for this. But there was another measure far worse for the agricultural interests than the Local Government Act or the Parish Councils Act, and that was the most cruel and unjust Budget of last year. it was a bad day for the agricultural labourer when that Act became law. All the smaller fads and schemes put forward scarcely touched the fringe of agricultural

91
depression; and until and unless a Statesman should arise from either Party who would make a thorough alteration in our out-of-date fiscal system, and would make this his chief aim and object, there would be no real relief from the depression and ruin which now rested on our commerce and our agriculture.
*SIR J. LUBBOCKremarked that the country had been looking forward with great interest to the Queens Speech. There was much in it which was remarkable, but the omissions were even more remarkable than the substance. There was nothing about Home Rule for Ireland; and although the Government had been denouncing the other House on platforms all over the country, there was nothing about the House of Lords. The Chancellor of the Exchequer expressed much confidence that the measures mentioned in the Speech would pass the House of Commons, and said that if they were lost it would be in the House of Lords. But the Prime Minister gave a very different reason why they should fail when he said that the Government was like
"A great piece of ordnance muzzled with balls, heavy and destructive in their character, but with a perfectly insufficient charge behind them to launch at the enemy."
That seemed a very good description of some of the proposals of the Government. They were cumbrous. If they were successfully got off they would be very destructive to the country; but, fortunately, there was not sufficient powder behind them. He regretted that subjects calculated to relieve the present depression received so little consideration from Government. For instance, the depression in trade was greatly due to the disputes between Capital and Labour, most of which were perfectly unnecessary, as they arose from misunderstandings, which, if properly dealt with, could be prevented. The Government had a Bill on the subject, but he could not help thinking it rather ominous that this Bill was not going to be introduced on Thursday. Last year he had the honour of introducing a Bill dealing with the same subject on behalf of the Chambers of Commerce and the great London Trades Unions? Her Majestys Government said that they did not object to the Bill, but whenever it was brought on
92
they blocked it. The Chambers of Commerce then introduced it into the other House, and it was passed there with general consent. If there were some cases in which good Bills passed that House, and were lost elsewhere, on the other hand there were cases, and this was one, where useful measures passed in the other House had been lost in the House of Commons. He urged the Government to attempt to press the matter on, and to bring it on at a time when it would be properly discussed in that House. He very greatly regretted that no mention was made by the Government of any measure dealing with the excessively long hours of labour in shops. There was no class of the community who worked so long as small shopkeepers and their assistants, and that House had already unanimously passed a stronglyworded Resolution on that subject in March 1893. Her Majestys Government apparently were not going to do anything to give effect to that Resolution. He had always understood that when a Resolution of this character was passed the Government were bound to give effect to it; and he deeply regretted that the Government should entirely ignore this great and grievous evil.
*SIR F. S. POWELLsaid he represented a district which, perhaps more than any other, suffered during the great dispute in the coal trade in 1892, and the sorrows arising from that unhappy condition of affairs were not yet abated. There was no doubt the depression and grief in that district would continue for a considerable period, and he felt that the Government were taking a heavy responsibility if they did not in the course of this Session take some effectual steps to promote a solution of these industrial difficulties. Both employers and employed suffered from these troubles, and it was to the interests of all that these disputes should cease. There was one omission from the Queens Speech to which he would refer, and that was in regard to the pollution of rivers. They had passed an Act two or three years ago dealing with the Mersey and Irwell, and the difficulties arising in Lancashire and part of Cheshire which, at that time, were of a gigantic character. The effect of that legislation had been that in many parts of Lancashire

93
the evils were greatly diminished, and he hoped that in the course of a very few years all those difficulties would have disappeared. The same observation applied to the West Riding of Yorkshire, and so recently as last Session a private Act was passed dealing with that large industrial district, the Mersey and Irwell Act being adopted with some modifications. In that case there had been activity of public opinion in favour of the new law. He felt thoroughly convinced that it was the duty of Parliament to take advantage of the great success of this experiment, and by general legislation to give to the whole of the country the advantages which local legislation had conferred on Lancashire and Yorkshire. If the Government did not themselves initiate legislation, he hoped they would support the initiation of private Members. He should have the honour in a few hours to ask the House, for the third time, to permit him to introduce a Bill for the prevention of the pollution of rivers throughout the country; and he hoped that, even if it was not thought right that this Bill should become law in the course of the present Session, the question might at least be thoroughly investigated by means of a Committee, and that it might afterwards be dealt with in a widely-reaching statute. He desired to acknowledge the action of the Local Government Board in regard to the Circular which they had recently sent to the Boards of Guardians throughout the country; but while adequate relief was given to real poverty, he hoped that sturdy vagrants would not be collected together into one centre by a too liberal administration of the law.
*MR. R. G. WEBSTERexpressed his satisfaction at the statement in the Address relating to foreign affairs, and also at the announcement that in Ireland, whatever be the reason, offences of all kinds had reached a low level. They were told that this was Her Majestys Gracious Speech from the Throne; but they all knew that the Speech was in reality prepared or advised by the Government. He had never before seen a Speech which proposed so many Constitutional changes as this one. He would not go through all the proposals in the Speech. He should confine himself to one it was a very important matter, and he thought it ought to have
94
a whole Session devoted to itself; he referred to the paragraph which dealt with the Church in Wales. They had before them last Session a Bill which dealt with this question, and they had a right to ask—Why should this question be brought on again in this particular Session? Why should the subject be pressed upon the country at the present time? It seemed to him that the reason was this: the supporters of the Bill saw that unless this question were solved very quickly it would never be solved at all according to their views. The Bill was urged forward on the ground of what was called religious liberty." He could not agree with that, for, so far as he was able to understand, they had absolute religious liberty already. The proposal of the Government went a step farther: it went as far as spoliation of the Church in Wales. He did not see how the Bill could be defended on the principle of religious liberty. He had no idea of religious liberty unconnected with honesty and justice. He asked—Why was this attack on the Church to be made at the present time? The opponents of the Church knew that it was increasing in strength, and that unless this attack were made now there would be no chance of success. What said the late Prime Minister of this part of the Church as late as 1891?
"The Established Church in Wales is an advancing Church, a living Church, and I hope very distinctly a living Church rising from elevation to elevation."
Contrast these words with the vitriolic bitterness with which the hon. Member for the Carnarvon district and his friends refer to the Church in Wales, either in this House or in the country, when he or they call it an Alien Church, and its bishops and other ministers of its religion, aliens and spies. Notwithstanding these angry chidings, its foundations remain unshaken. Its clergy continue doing their useful work, teaching the doctrines of brotherly love, and he would venture to say if Churchmen do their duty they had power to prevent the success of this movement; and he sincerely hoped that their defence of the Church will be conducted in a manner more worthy of the Christian name than the attacks. They should be told by the Government and their friends that there is some resemblance in the

95
case of the Church in Wales and the Irish Church. It is at best but a very slight one. In the case of the Irish Church, the statistics of an undoubted character proved that its followers were only one-tenth of the population. who can give accurate figures respecting the proportion of Churchmen and Nonconformists in Wales, and whose fault is it that they are unattainable? Not Churchmen and their friends in this House assuredly. When the Census of 1890–1 was to be taken we asked for a religious Census in England and Wales, as there was one in Ireland. This was stoutly opposed by the Liberationists in this House and outside, and they succeeded in preventing that Census being taken. They might well ask themselves why. If their case had been a strong one, if the Census had been likely to prove in their favour; if, in fact, they had not known that it would prove the Church in Wales to be a much stronger and more numerous body than they had given out, they would have had it fast enough. They prefer sham enumerations, bogus returns, with notices sent out to the Nonconformist congregations and a whip sent out to them to muster in strength, and the Churchmen taken in the usual numbers, with enumerators duly appointed by the leading members of Political Dissenting organizations; these valuable returns being forsooth collected by, in some instances, children of the age of 9 or 10 years. And it is on such returns, and on such absolutely unreliable ex parte statistics, this House is to be asked to legislate. What said the Member for Midlothian, on this subject?—
"We are encountered at the threshold of the question by the old statistical controversy, with regard to which we seem to have been thus far rather too much in the condition of men who are determined to keep themselves in the dark."
And yet after this speech his supporters in this House decline to allow the clear light of day to burn on this important point in the controversy, and why, may we ask? We may almost affirm they hesitate to let the truth be known; and now I would like to furnish the House with a few reliable statistics. The number of Sunday school scholars in the diocese of St. Davids has advanced from 28,763 in 1880 to 32,923 in 1889. The number confirmed for the triennial
96
period ending December 1st, 1876, numbered 4,352, and for the period ending 1888, 8,545; that is to say, doubled. The number of communicants has risen from 26,589 to 39,401 in the same period, an increase of 50 per cent. Now, for a moment, let him refer to Burial statistics. When the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for East Denbighshire, brought in his measure, he said it would affect and remove a great grievance from 600,000 of the population of Wales. Now, if only half of what he said were true about his Burials Act the Nonconformists would have eagerly seized the relief given by its provisions. Well, what are the facts since the passing of that Act? In 266 parishes in North Wales, 1,440 funerals have been celebrated under the provisions of that Act by the Nonconformist ministers, while 20,298 have been celebrated according to the rites of the Established Church; and it is said that there have been numerous cases in which excessive pressure has been put on Nonconformists to adopt the provisions of this Act in the burial of their dead, and such pressure has been stubbornly resisted. Hon. Members opposite would try to set up the doctrine of a separate Church for England and Wales. That argument is a fallacious one, and they might as well attempt to set up the doctrine that the Church of the. Northern Province of York was dissimilar from that of Canterbury. On that do we want further evidence, than that from the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Midlothian himself, who said—
"There is a complete ecclesiastical, constitutional, legal, and, I may add for every practical purpose, historical identity between the Church in Wales and the rest of the Church."
So, when we find that in the Queens Speech there is a clause to bring in a measure to disestablish the Church in Wales, we must be aware it really means merely the stepping stone to an attack on the Church in England.
"The operation of disestablishing the Church of Wales from the Church of England will not be an easy one. He suspected that it will be found that it is tied and knotted, and tangled. I might also say, in such a mass of legal bonds and meshes with the general body of the Church, that it would be a very formidable matter indeed to accomplish this untying process."
These are, the words of the right hon. Member for Midlothian, not his. They

97
may have been said a few years ago, but time does not render the task more easy, rather more difficult, and this "formidable" measure, this complicated "untying process" is only one of very numerous measures the Government propose with a light heart to carry through this House this Session.—No. This question, if it was ever seriously attempted, would occupy the time of a whole Session to itself, and it is only trifling with the patience of this House. To quote again the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Midlothians words respecting the Disestablishment of the Church in Wales—
Only go up to the Walls and gate, and look at the way the stone is built upon stone, on the way in which the foundations have been dug, and the way they go down into the earth, and consider by what tools, what artillery, you can bring the fabric to the ground."
We know the way they will try, not by the gallant rush of a storming party to the breach, but by the underground work of the sapper—the false statistics, and the tongue of slander against the Ministers of Religion, and turning every Nonconformist chapel in the Principality into a sort of Radical Candidates Committee Room. When one reads this paragraph in the Address from the Throne, relative to the Disestablishment of the Church in Wales, we should, ere we accept it, even as a mere formality, recollect what it means. We are asked to disestablish a part of the Church of England. A Church established in this country to give religious instruction to all, rich and poor alike, not only in large centres, but in the smallest hamlet. It is, he maintained, at once the oldest and the purest form of State Socialism. The poor mans church we are asked to commence to attempt to destroy. This House, with all its power, even if it became as they wished, the omnipotent and sole Estate of the Realm, could never destroy it. But why in this age of Socialism in all forms in your Free Education Acts, in your Poor Laws, your Free Libraries, your roads and bridges free from toll or impost to the traveller or the wayfarer—why should you wish to put back the hands of the clock regarding religion, and make that alone on the voluntary system, which means religion will alone be within the reach of the well-to-do. It is not the time on the Address to
98
refer to the causes of Nonconformity in Wales by non-resident English Bishops and clergy having been appointed during the early Hanoverian reigns: suffice to say that is not the case now. The Church in Wales, equally with the Church in England, has aroused from her partial lethargy of the last century, and is a living force for active good in the country. The Bill of last Session was not only to disestablish the Church, but to despoil it, and he would warn Nonconformists in this House and in the country, that when spoliation once commenced it would not end with the funds of the Church, whether held by tithes or otherwise. Gifts and grants given by Nonconformists in the past, and now held by the various Nonconformists by trust deeds authorised by Act of Parliament, might be liable to be inquired into and diverted to secular purposes. But knowing, as he did, the condition of the agricultural interest of the country at present, he said that if they leave the Church pennyless, and it had to be supported by the voluntary efforts of the congregations, if they diverted the use of the Tithes from religious purposes, they should not fritter it away on secular purposes, technical institutes, and the like, but restore it to the land by abolishing the Tithe charge. But in reality the payments to a religious body spread throughout the land, whose duty it was to inculcate religion and morality amongst the people, was, to put it on no higher ground, a better insurance fund than teaching people to make new designs on silks and satins, or giving them the privilege of reading translations at free libraries of French plays and novels. Had the state of Ireland been so law-abiding and contented since they had despoiled the Church there, and frittered away the plunder so obtained? No; they opened the flood gates of spoliation on the sister Isle, and it had not stopped at the Church. Were they again to have presented to the House a measure so utterly repugnant to the feelings and sentiments of Churchmen as that which was presented last Session? That measure was grossly and deliberately annoying and insulting regarding the mode Cathedrals were to be dealt with. This objectionable provision was to be thrust down the throats of Churchmen by the descendants of the Whigs, who at one time were thought to be

99
staunch defenders of the Protestant religion in this country, by the aid of their Roman Catholic allies from Ireland, who, having in some way or other twenty more seats in the House than they were entitled to according to any just representative system, would vote the minority down, by about that number. He was opposed to this paragraph in the gracious Speech from the Throne, because there was the best reason for believing that, while the Nonconformity now so prevalent in Wales was of comparatively recent origin, the life, energy and spirituality which the Church was exhibiting would draw back "to the old hive" the children of those who had been conscientiously withdrawn from her fold, and also because it may be the duty of England, it may be her proud destiny, to guard civilization against the withering blast of infidelity and atheism on the one hand, or of priestly oppression on the other, and he asked can she fulfil those tasks if called on to do so without the bulwarks of her National Church?
SIR R. TEMPLEdrew attention to the paragraph in the Queens Speech referring to our relations with other countries. The statement relating to the settlement of the French frontier in the neighbourhood of our territory in Sierra Leone was satisfactory as far as it went, because for a long time there had been grave anxiety regarding what might be called the Hinterland of our West African possessions. The paragraph stating that the relations of the country with foreign Powers remained on a friendly and satisfactory footing, he earnestly hoped represented the real state of affairs. He did not doubt the sincerity of the Governments belief in the truth of the statement, but, as British Legislators, Members of that House were bound to consider for themselves whether that belief was wellfounded. No doubt our relations with the United States, after the settlement of the Behring Sea Seal Fishery question, were satisfactory. We could also believe that our relations with Germany were good, especially since we had yielded to her on the question of the telegraphic communication and the belt or zone of territory in Eastern Africa. Were our relations really friendly and satisfactory with Russia and with
100
France? Now, as regards Russia, there was every reason to think that the Tsar entertained the most friendly feelings towards this country, but was there "no public opinion in Russia to which he must defer? Was there no strong party in Russia which would mould his will and even guide His Majestys intentions? Certainly there was, and that public opinion and that party was distinctly aggressive in an Imperial and territorial sense. So long as that was the case and that party had a dominant voice in Russian councils, so long there would be danger for England. He strongly impressed upon the Secretary of State for India—and he was glad that the office was filled by a Statesman so capable, so patriotic, and so able—that the question of the Pamirs most intimately affected the Eastern Empire of England. Until it was settled, with a proper regard for British Interests, it could not, he submitted, be affirmed that our relations with Russia were friendly and satisfactory. It was the well-founded belief of those who understood India that in all these territorial arrangements Russia got the best of it and England was worsted. In all the arrangements of partition between Afghanistan and the Turcoman territory after the capture of Merv we were thoroughly worsted. [Mr. H. H. FOWLER indicated dissent.] The right hon. Gentleman might not believe that, but all men who knew something of the country were firm in their belief to that effect; and they believed, moreover, that something of the same kind would happen in the Pamirs. It was well, therefore, that the right hon. Gentleman should be warned of the danger which was impending over us in that direction. The reference in the Queens Speech to the war between China and Japan was mild and general in its language, but the future terms and conditions of peace between the belligerents excited anxiety in the mind of every patriotic Englishman, and why? Because one knew there was Russia looming like a black cloud in the background. He questioned whether the ordinary Englishman realised the enormous advantages gained by Japan. She had taken the Portsmouth of China and the Woolwich as well, and there was nothing except the ice and snow to prevent her marching and dictating terms

101
of peace in Pekin. If a question of cession of territory arose the Russian difficulty at once stepped in. Was Korea to be independent? Would Russia permit it? If not, then everybody would be drawn into the vortex. Or supposing Japan marched to Pekin, what was to become of the Chinese Empire? If China broke up, then there would be a scramble for the spoils of that Empire, While these tremendous eventualities were impending, and while they had the knowledge forced upon them by the sad experience of the last 30 years of Russian ambition, it was not possible to affirm that our relations with Russia were satisfactory. With regard to France, could anyone who read extracts from the Parisian Press believe that the French Parliament—he might say also the French Foreign Office—really entertained friendly feelings for us at the present time? Would to God it were the case. Look at the incessant jealousy of France about Egypt. Naturally enough, he admitted; but still we had our duty to do. We were to remain in Egypt until she was fit to govern herself, and, so far as he could see, that might be for ever. Then there was the case of Siam, as to which he pressed the Government for information, and to insist, that there should be some guarantee in the future for the independence of that country. These matters related to India in a serious and essential degree. If they were not satisfactorily arranged, India would not be safe. She would be between two fires, and, sooner or later, trouble must ensue. As to our relations with France, the last speeches made in Committee of Supply, in the Session of 1894, related to the territorial delimitation between the territory under French and British influence, from the sources of the Nile to our newly acquired territory in Uganda. It appeared to be astounding indiscretion on the part of the Government to have entered into an agreement with the Congo State without coming into a previous arrangement with France. It was humiliating to this country that France should say publicly that she, would not submit to such an agreement, and that England must withdraw from it. It was true we did not withdraw, but we entered into further negotiations with France; and what had been the result? UP to the end of last Session it was
102
eminently unsatisfactory to England. Had the position of affairs now improved? They did not know: but before the Session was much older they would have to insist upon knowing. These matters were really of the most supreme importance to England. It was said now that if such and such a measure were passed the country would be immeasurably richer. That seemed to be an important factor in Parliamentary matters. If that principle were applied to Foreign Affairs, he contended that England would be immeasurably richer if these, matters to which he referred were properly settled, and immeasurably poorer if they were not. Another paragraph of the greatest, and he might say melancholy, interest, was that which related to Armenia. There again Russia came in, but in this case she seemed to have behaved with a degree of forbearance for which he would hardly have given her credit. She might, have taken advantage of these troubles in Armenia to strengthen her position in Asia Minor, but, so far, she had resisted the temptation. If, however, Russia should be introduced into the heart of Asia Minor, what would be the position of England? England had given Turkey a guarantee, that she should be protected against Russian aggression, so far as her Asiatic dominions were concerned, and in order to fulfil that obligation she occupied Cyprus. Was England going to continue her occupation of Cyprus, and not protect Turkey against Russian aggression? He hoped that the reports received from Armenia might be exaggerated. Inquiry would show that, and he thought it would be a great pity to discuss the matter while the inquiry was pending; but he thought it right, to remind the House of the obligations under which this country lay, and of the great embarrassment she would be in in fulfilling those obligations if any misgovernment in Asia Minor should be proved. He was much obliged to the House for attending to his observations, but it was impossible to adduce more important matters for the consideration of the House. What he had said was only part of a preliminary skirmish. Other Members, better informed than he was, felt the same patriotic zeal in these matters, and were determined to press them to a legitimate conclusion. These

103
matters, he assured the Government, would not be allowed to drop, and whatever opportunity might be allowed by the forms and regulations of the House would be utilized for the sake of the best interests of England.
MR. J. G. LAWSONdesired to treat the Queens Speech as if it contained a bona fide programme which it was seriously intended should be carried out, although he could prove, by the showing of the Government themselves, that it did not contain any programme which could be so carried out, and what they should be engaged with this Session were not the matters contained in the Queens Speech, but another very different matter indeed. But, speaking on the supposition that this was to be a bona fide working programme of what was set before them this Session, he desired to offer one or two remarks upon the proposals with regard to light railways. Having heard this subject discussed amongst the farmers Clubs and Associations, and that morning at the Central Chamber of Agriculture, he felt it only right to call the attention of the Government to the fact that unless the agriculturists, in the matter of light railways, received some bona fide assistance, and were not made to provide that assistance themselves by being rated for the purpose of forming light railways, it would be but a poor crumb of comfort to offer to the agricultural interests. As the Bills of the Government were not definitely settled at this moment it was only right they should take every opportunity that presented itself of impressing upon the Government what were the conditions under which it was alone possible for the agriculturists to receive assistance from this proposal. If the scheme was to put upon the rates the expense of making the light railways, it would simply be taking money out of one pocket of the farmer and, perhaps, again putting it back into the pocket of the same or some other farmer. He hoped the proposal of the Government would be brought forward at a time when it could be adequately discussed with the view to the adoption of any practical suggestions which would result to the advantage of those whom it was desired to benefit. But he could hardly bring himself to believe that these proposals in the Queens
104
Speech were meant seriously to be the programme of the Session. It was a programme which was again crowded with a vast number of proposals, each one treading upon the others heels, and preventing progress being made with any of them. There were ten, if not twelve measures mentioned—all of importance. The Prime Minister, speaking at Cardiff, said the Government were anxious that their programme should be a distinctly business programme, containing only those measures which they saw a reasonable prospect of passing. If they did this, said the noble Lord, they simply confused the public issues, and the mind of the public at large. But here were ten or twelve measures of importance in the Queens Speech. Speaking on a previous occasion at Glasgow, the Prime Minister said they could only hope to carry one, or, at most, two measures of the first importance through Parliament in a single year. Did anybody deny that there were in this programme at least three measures of the first importance? There was the proposal for Wales to give to those who did not go to church the power to dispose of church funds. There was the measure for Parliament to give to the Irish tenants another slice of the landlords property. Then there was for England the proposal to give to those who did not use public-houses the power of shutting up and closing the trade of the publicans, and interfering with their business. Surely those were three measures of the first importance, and yet it was declared by the Prime Minister to be impossible to take more than one, or, at the outside, two of these measures with any hope, of being passed in one Session. The programme of the Government could not, therefore, be described as a business programme. Lord Rosebery, speaking at Cardiff, said that the campaign against the House of Lords was sufficient to tax the utmost strength of the Liberal Party at its very best. If that were so, in face of such a campaign, it was ridiculous to seriously put forward this list of measures. The House of Lords had been described by Liberal Statesmen as an impassable barrier, and the Chief Secretary for Ireland had said it was a huge dead weight of prejudice and passion. Surely, if that statement were true, the first object of those who believed it should be to call the other

105
House to account. Again, the late Prime Minister, speaking in the House of Commons in March, 1894, said the differences between the House of Lords and the House of Commons had reached such a development as to create a state of things which could not continue. But where was the effort to remedy that state of things, and to re-adjust those relations? The Chancellor of the Exchequer, too, had said that, when the House of Commons had put forward measures which they believed to be for the advantage of the country, they had been encountered by opposition in another place which destroyed the work of the representatives of the people. Why was this House to be asked to do all the work sketched in the Queens Speech, if the Government believed that the other House was waiting to destroy the work of this House? The right hon. Gentleman said this was a great subject, and he compared Parliament with a watch of which the mainspring was prevented from acting. When the mainspring of a watch was broken it must be renewed, and, until it was renewed, it was useless to wind it up in the hope of making it go. Yet the House of Commons was there to wind up a watch the mainspring of which was said to be broken. At Edinburgh and Birmingham the present Prime Minister cried aloud for guidance, impulse, and inspiration; and the inspiration came from the Leeds Conference, which passed a resolution calling upon the Government to abolish the veto of the House of Lords, "as soon as practicable during the present Parliament." The present Parliament was again assembled, and the head of the Government had spoken, but he had not said anything about carrying out the resolution of his supporters. The Chief Secretary for Ireland declared the Leeds resolution a valuable and important one, said that it was the expression of a reasoned opinion from a representative body, and assumed that it would receive "that attention from the Cabinet which the gravity of the situation required." Still, the Government went, on as if that resolution had never been passed. If the, Leeds Conference were not sufficient, there was a Resolution passed by the National Liberal Federation at Newcastle. The framers rejoiced at the commanding
106
position in which the Leeds Conference had placed the subject, and desired that the campaign should be vigorously pursued. It did not look as if that were to be in view of the legislation suggested by the Queens Speech. They were there to wind up a watch, the mainspring of which had been broken: "to shave with a blunt, razor," to adopt an expression of the right hon. Member for Midlothian; or, to adapt other phrases that had been used, ploughing the sands of the sea-shore, or attempting to fire cannon so constructed that it could not be discharged. The Prime Minister, during the recess, had excused himself from stating what he was going to do about the House of Lords, because the matter was such a high constitutional one that it could not be laid before any tribunal inferior to the High Court of Parliament. Now Parliament was assembled, and there was no suggestion that this high constitutional amendment was to be laid before it. Was it hoped that the divergence between the two Houses would grow less and that the question would settle itself? On the contrary, the Chief Secretary had said it was highly probable the divergencies would grow wider than they are at present. The President of the Local Government Board, speaking at Reading, candidly admitted that the question was one of great difficulty, because there were differences of opinion in the Liberal Party as to whether there should be one Chamber or two. Was it possible that it was in consequence of these differences that the Resolution was being kept back? At Cardiff the Prime Minister said that if the Government did not consult the susceptibilities of the House of Lords there would be a chance of a barren Session. Did they intend by the proposed measures to consult the susceptibilities of the House of Lords? If they had any feeling about the House of Lords would it not rather be in favour of wounding their susceptibilities and adopting the policy of trailing the coat? The real reason why the Resolution about the House of Lords was not brought forward was that if it was proposed a Dissolution would be imminent, and the Government were not anxious for a Dissolution. But there was every reason why a Dissolution should be faced by them. The right hon. Member

107
for Midlothian, in 1874, said that if a majority returned at a General Election had sunk to such proportions that it could no longer carry on the business of the country with advantage, there was no resource but to appeal to the people, and yet the right hon. Gentleman at that time had a majority of 60 or 70, but the present majority was perhaps nearer six or seven. It was ridiculous to bring them there to discuss a programme when what the Government had at heart was, not the programme, but something far different, which ought to engage their attention at once, and which, when it was entered upon, would require all the energy they could give to it.
COLONEL C. E. HOWARD VINCENT COLONEL C. E. HOWARD VINCENT (Sheffield, Central) rose and, after intimating that he desired to move an Amendment if the general Debate on the Address were over, ultimately gave way to
MR. W. AMBROSEwho said he congratulated the Government on their action with regard to Armenia. But he remembered that, when the atrocities occurred in Bulgaria, although the Government of the day pursued a similar course, they received different treatment from the Opposition, who got up an agitation which influenced the following Election. It was said that in Ireland offences of all kinds had sunk to the lowest level, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer boldly attributed the decline to the prospect of Home Rule. Whatever effect that prospect might have, on agrarian crime, which was included in the returns, it could not be supposed to have influenced the burglar and the ordinary assassin and thief; and he challenged the Government to show that Home Rule had anything to do with the diminution of ordinary crime. The raising of the question recalled the period of the Kilmainham Treaty, when Members of the House of Commons who had been deemed dangerous by the Prime Minister of the day were set at liberty on the understanding that they would use their influence to repress crime, and outrage. He observed that in the Speech from the Throne it was said,—
"Proposals will be submitted to you for remedying defects which experience has brought to light in the working of the Law, of Landlord and Tenant in Ireland."
There was hardly such a thing as the, Law of Landlord and Tenant in Ireland.
108
There was such a thing before the Act of 1881, but what was established by that Act was a system of dual ownership. Everyone knew that the legislation of 1881 had resulted in serious difficulties between landlord and tenant, and in his opinion further legislation would only tend to aggravate the evils which were a necessary and proper result of the Act of 1881. It was said:
"A Bill will be presented to you dealing with the Church Establishment in Wales."
It was not from the words of the Speech, but only from the speeches of Ministers at public meetings, that hon. Members could understand what was meant. What the Government really meant was the disestablishment and the robbery of the Church. They meant sacrilege: they meant to steal the lands and buildings of the Church and appropriate to secular purposes. A more heinous offence by a nation could hardly be contemplated. They were to have, in addition, a Bill for the popular control of the Liquor Traffic. He would like to see the Liquor Traffic properly controlled; but he was not sure they would secure a proper control by putting it in the hands of such a body as was suggested, because popular bodies were apt to be carried away by passion and impulse. He was afraid it was intended to interfere with vested interests, and especially with the freedom of the people, to do what they liked in regard to their own refreshment and conduct. If there was one thing he should set himself against it was interference with a mans personal liberty. He noticed, too, that they were to have a Bill for the abolition of plural voting. He was sorry Lo see this further attempt to interfere, with the old principle of the constitution that taxation and representation should go together. Informer days the Liberal Party hold the view that those who had to find the money should have the control of it, but now it was argued that one set of people should find the money and another set of people should control and spend it. He saw no objection to a Bill for the payment of the charges of the Returning Officers at elections, but he feared that such a measure was simply held out as a bait to secure votes for the Bill for the payment of Members, and that when the, latter Bill was passed hon. Members would have to

109
whistle for the Returning Officers Charges Bill. Her Most Gracious Majesty was made to say:
"I regret that Agriculture continues in a seriously depressed condition."
Why, Agriculture was almost destroyed in this country. Sir James Caird told the Agricultural Commission that at least 30 per cent. of the profits of the landowners was gone; that 60 per cent. of the profits of the farmers was gone, and that 10 per cent. of the profits of the labourers was gone. What, was the result? That it was impossible sometimes to grow corn in England at a profit. The same high authority told them that wheat must sell at 36s. per quarter if the English grower was to be paid. Land was going out of cultivation, and, as a consequence, our towns were full of labourers for whom there was no employment. Was there any remedy whatever? There was none promised by Her Majestys Government. They said:
"This subject is still under the consideration of the Commission which I appointed in the Autumn of l893. In the meantime, a proposal will be submitted to you for facilitating the construction of Light Railways."
They began the Commission in 1893. They did nothing in 1893 and 1894. Here they were in 1895, and for this calamity which had overtaken the country they proposed the construction of light railways. It was utterly ridiculous. If instead of endeavouring to pull down the Constitution, and to pass all the various measures they enumerated, the Government would give their attention to the necessities of the trading, manufacturing and agricultural interests they might do some real good. The Speech was the more, remarkable for what it did not contain than for what it did contain. At one, time it was said that Ireland blocked the way. "Home, Rule holds the field" was the language of the late Prime Minister; and it was intimated that no English legislation could proceed until that question was settled. The Home Rule Bill was thrown out by the House of Lords. What was the course for the Government to pursue if they really felt that, they had a mandate to carry that measure? It was to have gone to the country at once, but that they dared not do. The object of the Government had been to complicate the issues before the
110
country, and mix Home Rule up with other questions—the Welsh Church, Irish Land, and the Local Veto Bill—so that at the General Election they might succeed on any point they could, and then come back and say they had a mandate to carry Home Rule and pass their Resolution with regard to the House of Lords. Lord Rosebery, in his speeches at Leeds and Bradford, had spoken of this Resolution, yet there was not a word about it in the Queens Speech. The House had a right to know what the Government intended to do, both as regarded the House of Lords and Home Rule. Was the matter to be held over them in terrorem for they knew not how long? If there was to be a Resolution with regard to the House of Lords, let the Government produce it at once, and not keep on passing Bills which they knew perfectly well the House of Lords would reject.

IMPERIAL CUSTOMS UNION.
COLONEL C. E. HOWARD VINCENTsaid everyone must be astonished that the Queens Speech contained no reference to the Colonies, and more especially to the Convention at Ottawa in July last of all the self-governing Colonies. The only reference to the Colonies concerned the small Colony of Sierra Leone. It was his duty to call attention to this serious omission, and move an Amendment to the Address on the subject. He must also refer to the omission of reference to the depression of trade, which affected all the large towns in this country and threw a large number of persons out of employment. It was impossible that the Government could be unaware of the condition of things; if so, how was it that they did not call attention to a matter which was of the, most vital importance, to the great working classes of this country? But he was anxious not to raise any controversial matter in the Amendment he was desirous of submitting, which was—
"And this House humbly desires to represent to Your Majesty that steps should be taken to remove any Statutory or Treaty obstacle standing; in the way of any arrangement which may be desired in the direction of a Customs Union between the different parts of the British
Empire."
He hoped the Government might see their way to accept the Amendment, or give such an assurance with reference to the subject of it, as might give satisfaction

111
to the great Colonies of Canada, Australasia, and South Africa, taking part in the Ottawa Convention. He need hardly remind the House that the moving spirit of the Convention was Sir John Thompson, whose tragic death, almost in the presence of his Sovereign, was mourned by every subject of the Queen. The President was the Hon. Sir Mackenzie Bowell, the present Premier of Canada. The Governments of Australasia and South Africa were represented by their most able statesmen. The Imperial Government was represented by a Special Commissioner, the Earl of Jersey, who was selected because of his special fitness and Colonial experience. His Report was presented to the Government many months ago, and had since been laid on the Table of the House. There had been ample time for the Government to come to some decision on the moderate recommendations contained in Lord Jerseys Report, which was agreed to by the Colonial Conference at Ottawa. Two Resolutions were carried absolutely unanimously by the delegates of the Colonies represented, and he might say the Colonies selected their most eminent statesmen to represent them. He should like to read the two Resolutions agreed to, and which he had abstracted from Lord Jerseys Report. The first Resolution was—
"That provision should be made by Imperial legislation enabling the Dependencies of the Empire to enter into agreements of commercial reciprocity, including the power of making differential tariffs with Great Britain or with one another."
The second was as follows:
"That this Conference is of opinion that any provisions in existing Treaties between Great Britain and any Foreign Power which prevent the self-governing Dependencies of the Empire from entering into agreements of commercial reciprocity with each other, or with great Britain, should be removed."
A third resolution expressed the opinion of the Conference in favour of preferential arrangements (1) between Great Britain and her Colonies; and (2), pending such an event, between the Colonies inter se. This was also passed by a majority of the Colonies, but not quite unanimously, as some thought the wording a little faulty, and that this Clause—
"That until the Mother Country can see her way to enter into Customs arrangements with
112
her Colonies, it is desirable that, when empowered so to do, the Colonies of Great Britain, or such of them as may be disposed to accede to this view, take steps to place each others products in whole or in part on a more-favoured Customs basis than is accorded to the like products of foreign countries."
—was somewhat in the nature of a threat to the Mother Country. This, he had good reason to know, was far from the intention of the mover, the able Finance Minister of Canada. As to the first Resolution enabling the dependencies of the Empire to enter into agreements of commercial reciprocity with Great Britain or with one another, Lord Jersey had written:
"It was clearly the opinion of all the Colonial delegates that it is desirable that the Colonies represented should make arrangements with one another, and, if possible, with Great Britain, which would give British an advantage over foreign products, and that for this purpose any statutory or treaty provisions which stand in the way should he removed. It was felt by the delegates that. so far as might be possible. British subjects should take what they have to import from their own kindred rather than from foreign States."
This view, if not adopted by Her Majestys Ministers, was largely shared by the people of this country and by the Colonies, and involved no question of Protection, but simply carried out the original object in the acquisition of the Empire, namely, the development of trade. All that was needed was a short Act of half-a-dozen words repealing the section in the Constitution Acts of the Australian Colonies prohibiting them from making differential commercial conventions with other over-sea Colonies. This power had been granted to them as regarded Colonies on the Australian Continent by the Imperial Act of 1873, 36Vict. ch. 22. It was a power already possessed by Canada, South Africa, and the Crown Colonies. There was consequently no ground whatever for withholding it from Australia, and especially as it would probably lead at once to a great development of trade with Canada. He might remind Her Majestys Government that last year the Colony of Victoria had sent home a Special Commissioner, the Hon. Robert Reid, to urge this concession. Lord Jersey had reported that
"This statutory prohibition appears to be of a very exceptional, if not of unique, character,"
and
"the repeal of the provisions in question is

113
free from any serious objection, either on constitutional or on commercial grounds. I consider, therefore, that it will be a consistent and successful policy to recognise the reasonable nature of the request that the self-governing Colonies should have the power, subject to the veto of the Crown, to make such fiscal arrangements with each other as may seem to them most conducive to their commercial prosperity."
The second resolution dealt with the removal of any treaty obstacles which might exist to the fullest possible extension of British trade. It might be asked, was it possible that any such treaties had ever been concluded by a British Government with a foreign power? Unfortunately it was so. On July 23rd, 1862, a treaty was entered into with Belgium, and on May 30th, 1865, with the German Zollverein, each containing, without consultation with the Colonies, a clause reported to Parliament in 1888 by the Foreign Office
"as precluding the preferential fiscal treatment of British goods in the Colonies and dependencies of the British Crown, and while these two treaties remained in force these express stipulations extend to all countries whose commercial treaties with great Britain contain a most favoured nation clause, and apply to British colonies."
Lord Salisbury, addressing the United Empire Trade League in 1891, said—
"With regard to those two unlucky treaties that were made by Lord Pahnerstons Government some thirty years ago. I am sure the matter of the relation of our colonies could not have been fully considered. We have tried to find out from official records what species of reasoning it was that induced the Statesmen of that day to sign such very unfortunate pledges; but I do not think they had any notion that they were signing any pledges at all. I have not been able to discover that they at all realised the importance of the engagements upon which they were entering. We shall be glad indeed to take every opportunity that arisen for delivering ourselves from those unfortunate engagements."
After consultation with the Law Officers of the Crown and other authorities, the present Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs stated in the House of Commons, on July 30th 1894, the general effect of the stipulations of the treaties to be: (1) that they do not prevent differential treatment by the United Kingdom in favour of British Colonies; (2) they do prevent differential treatment by British Colonies in favour of the United Kingdom: (3) they do not prevent differential treatment by British Colonies in favour of each other. We
114
were consequently face to face with this extraordinary position, that while the Colonies and the Dependencies founded by Great Britain could make any commercial arrangements they pleased between themselves, except as before mentioned, as to Australia, the Mother Country which had established them for purposes of trade, had by treaty with foreign nations prevented these Colonies and Dependencies giving her goods any freer market than they gave to the goods of foreign rivals who had not lost a life or had expended a shilling in acquiring them. Lord Jersey had reported, and let the House remember he was a well-known free trader—
"Now if the advantages of Colonial preferential arrangements are not wanted by Great Britain, that is, if she is willing to allow differential conventions between her Colonies without demanding for herself the benefit of the minimum tariff, it does not seem necessary to take any action with regard to these treaties. But if these advantages are desired, it would be necessary to consider whether effect could be given to the second Resolution. The Resolution was obviously prompted by consideration for the interests of the Mother Country."
Lord Jersey added—
"Her Majestys Government will perhaps consider whether it would be possible, without denouncing the treaties, to induce the Belgian and German Governments to consent to the abrogation of the particular clauses specially referring to the British colonies. It is hardly necessary to observe that these clauses arc of a very unusual character: and with regard to the question of the consideration given for them, I may quote the words of the President (the Hon. Sir Mackenzie Bowell, the present Premier of Canada): There is nothing in either the German or Belgian treaties that gives any advantage to great Britain or Canada over other countries.…We receive no advantages from the treaties which exist at present over any other nation in the way of tariff in either of these countries."
He would not deny that these two treaties might contain other provisions advantageous to British trade. But it seemed absurd to suppose that two nations so closely allied to us as Belgium and Germany, both in dynasty and commerce, whose best customers we were, of whose goods we had bought in 1893 and again last year upwards of £45,000,000 worth, of which not less than £25,000,000 represented wages to competing labour, and had given all, or nearly all, of them an absolutely free market, in spite of heavy duties imposed by each of them against British goods,

115
would be so unreasonable as to oppose the natural desire of the British people not to have the hands of commerce made freer within their own Empire. In practical illustration of the evil effect upon our trade of these two treaties, or rather these two clauses of half-a-dozen lines, he might remind the House of the offer recently made by the right hon. Cecil Rhodes, to whom all would wish a prosperous voyage to the scene of his invaluable Imperial labours, an offer still open, that the duties upon British goods entering that great white country of the future—Matabeleland and Mashonaland—eight times the size of the United Kingdom, should never be charged a higher duty than at present. This magnificent offer had been refused by the Secretary of State for the Colonies in his tender solicitude, not for British interests, but for those of foreigners who want to reap where we have sown. He need hardly point out that the termination of these restrictive clauses by the years notice required, would not of necessity make any difference in the Customs arrangements between the United Kingdom and the other portions of the Empire. All that it would do would be to remove the obstacles which now blocked the way to freer trade with our own kith and kin. There was every reason to believe that several of the Colonies would be quite ready to give us an advantage of 5 or 10 per cent, over the foreigner, even without any reciprocal advantage here. Indeed, Canada and South Africa had already offered this. Surely Free Traders would not block the way to freer trade within the Empire? That there was a strong popular movement in the direction of his motion was not to be denied. He had addressed large meetings on the subject in every part of Great Britain, and also in Canada and the West Indies. No dissentient voice had ever been raised, and the most enthusiastic advocates were to be found among the working men whose, kindred had peopled the Colonies. The Conference recently held at Newcastle of the National Union of Conservative Associations, to the chairmanship of which he had recently had the honour of being elected, had endorsed unanimously the Ottawa Resolutions. The prize of 1,000 guineas offered by the proprietors of The Statist newspaper for
116
the best scheme of a Customs Union, and the nomination of such distinguished judges as Lord Lorne and Lord Playfair by Lord Salisbury and the Prime Minister, had shown clearly the direction of the public feeling on the question and its non-party character. His right hon. Friend the Member for St. Georges, Hanover Square, whose opinion on this subject would be respected upon both sides of the House, said, upon February 17th, 1891—
"I must enter my protest against an extreme application of the view that under no circumstances could no make fiscal arrangements with the Colonies without injuring other portions of our trade. If we find we could make the whole Empire one as regards Customs, surely we have the same right of Zollverein Union with our Colonies as Germany has with Bavaria, or the United States among themselves. I claim for ourselves the same right. But how near are we to any such consummation? What chance or hope have the Colonies held out to us that they are prepared to move in this direction?"
The whole of the self-governing Colonies had now with one voice held out not only the hope to us that they were prepared to move in this direction, but had actually made a distinct and formal offer. The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition, and if he mistook not, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, had directly or indirectly intimated that an expression of Colonial feeling, such as had been delivered, could not be ignored. When the House of Commons of Canada resolved on April 5th, 1892—on the Motion of Mr. Alexander McNeill, seconded by Mr. Desjardins, a leading representative of French Canadians—that in certain, conditions it would be prepared to make a substantial reduction in the duties imposed upon British manufactured goods, the Time had observed—
"We are bound to take note of the fact that the Parliament of the Canadian Dominion has made an offer, which, if backed by the other leading Colonies in Australia and South Africa, would be deserving of careful consideration."
The offer had now been backed by all the leading Colonies, and would be supported by India if the Secretary for India were willing. It would prevent that difficulty with which Lancashire was now face to face—the necessity in India of putting a duty on the imports

117
of this country, notwithstanding the enormous sacrifices of blood and treasure which this country has made for India. In the interest of his constituents, who wore grievously afflicted at the present time by the depression of trade and industry, he must earnestly appeal to the Government to assent to this motion. On behalf of the whole industrial community he claimed that something should be done by any Government of any Party to redeem the present state of British industry. In view of the, unanimous resolutions passed by the self-governing Colonies in conference, it was not becoming on the part of Her Majestys Government to do anything less than their utmost to meet the Colonies views and wishes. Those resolutions were, moreover, passed as much in the interest of British as of Colonial trade, as was proved by the Report of the Governments own Commissioner. He hoped the House would have an emphatic assurance that the Government would deal with this matter without delay, and be begged to move, as a friendly addition to the Address—
"And this House desires humbly to represent to Your Majesty that steps should be taken to remove any Statutory or Treaty obstacles standing in the way of any arrangement which may be desired in the direction of a Customs Union between the different parts of the British Empire."
MR. A. F. GODSONin seconding the Resolution, said, that all parties alike had the same opinion that every obstacle to freer communication between England and the Colonies should be removed. The two Treaties with Belgium and Germany most materially affected the trade of the district which ho represented. He hoped the Government would give a definite and satisfactory assurance that night.
THE UNDKR SECRETARY FOR THE COLONIES(Mr. SYDNEY BUXTON, Tower Hamlets, Poplar)said that he had not much complaint to make of the tone of his hon. Friends speech. He was glad to think that on this occasion, as in respect of many of the hon. Members speeches, it was not necessary to discuss the question of Free Trade. The hon. Member care fully avoided dealing with that matter, and he was wise. Certainly there had been no intention of throwing any slight on the Colonies by not mentioning in the
118
Queens Speech the Ottawa Conference. But perhaps the hon. Member forgot that in the Queens Speech at the close of last Session a distinct, and satisfactory reference to that Conference was made, and, therefore, it was perhaps unnecessary to refer to it again. All those who were interested in the closer relations between the Mother Country and the Colonies, would desire to express the satisfaction with which they had learnt of the way in which the proceedings at the Ottawa Conference were carried on, of the unanimity which prevailed, and of the strong expressions of loyalty to the Mother Country and of a desire to foster intercolonial and British relations. This was the first opportunity which he had had of saying anything in regard to this matter, and, on behalf of the Colonial Office, he should like to acknowledge their indebtedness to Lord Jersey, not only for the great tact which he showed at the Ottawa Conference, but also for the very valuable and lucid Report which had been circulated, and was now in the hands of Members. The hon. Member rather assumed that the Government had neglected to consider this matter and to deal with it. He could assure the hon. Member that the Government had given it the greatest possible attention, and he would be satisfied to learn that it was proposed in the present Session to take action in regard to one matter, and that another matter raised at the Conference was under consideration, and it was hoped a solution would be found. The hon. Member had referred to three resolutions moved at the Conference. One of them he wisely put aside—that relating to a Customs Union between the different parts of the Empire and Great Britain. He put it aside because it raised the whole question of our fiscal system, and was only carried by a majority of five to three at the Conference. It was, therefore, on a different footing from the others. The second resolution proposed and accepted at the Conference referred to the question whether the Australian Colonies should be allowed to enter into fiscal arrangements with the other self-governing Colonies. Under their original constitution the Australian Colonies were prohibited altogether from entering into fiscal arrangements with one another or with other Colonies. On its merits it

119
was quite right that the Australian Colonies, like the other self-governing Colonies, should be freely allowed to enter into fiscal arrangements with each other, as Canada could do with the Cape. He thought that his hon. Friend would be satisfied with the statement that the Government would introduce a Bill during the present Session. As regarded the third point raised that was a more intricate matter—as to whether any obligation in our present Treaties prevented us from allowing our Colonies to make intercolonial fiscal arrangements with one another, and whether England was prevented from entering into those arrangements. Any proposal between one Colony and another on these matters must be one of the reserved Bills to be sent home and subject to veto if necessary. The position was this—that by two of his hon. Friends unfortunate Treaties, made years ago before these questions were considered, their hands were, it might be, thought, in some way bound. For years past there had always been in every Commercial Treaty a clause excluding any Colony which did not wish to enter into the fiscal conditions under which the trade of this country had been carried on. He could assure his hon. Friend that, as far as their information went, the Government believed that those two Treaties did not prevent any intercolonial arrangement, and did not prevent England from giving preferential treatment to her Colonies as against foreign nations; but, at the present moment, those two Treaties did prevent the Colonies getting preferential treatment in regard to English goods. He would ask his hon. Friend to be satisfied with the assurance which he had given. The Government, he could assure him, were actively employed in looking into the matter, and were in hopes that some satisfactory arrangement would be brought about. In conclusion, he could only say that the matters which had been referred to, and which were raised in Lord Jerseys Report, were discussed much more from an intercolonial point of view than from the point of view of the fiscal arrangements of the Empire at large. It was a much larger question whether England was at liberty to depart from her established fiscal policy. The Government certainly desired to meet the Colonies with all the favour they
120
could, and he trusted that the Bill which they might introduce and the Administrative Acts following thereupon would enlarge intercolonial trade throughout the country.
COLONEL HOWARD VINCENTthought it hardly necessary, after the assurance just given on the part of the Government, to put the House to the trouble of dividing.
The Amendment was then by leave withdrawn.
Mr. V. GIBBSsaid that the condition of Agriculture at the present time had been by no means exaggerated. Desirable as Light Railways were, they could not possibly affect all the evils from which Agriculture was now suffering. One of those evils was the low and continually falling price of produce, and he could not see that any measure which would bring more produce into the towns could possibly benefit the outlying districts. The fall in prices must arise from over-production and the depreciation in the currency, and he was certain that, sooner or later, some Government must deal in a drastic measure with the currency question. The condition of a country where the currency steadily appreciated and the prices of produce steadily depreciated was most serious and important, and he could not conceive any subject which could better arouse the attention of the Government. He had no doubt that the cause of misfortunes from which all commerce was now suffering was the condition of the currency. In regard to the reference, in the earlier portion of the Queens Speech, as to the unfortunate war between China and Japan, he hoped the House and the country might rely on the Government to secure at the end of that war the free opening of the Chinese markets to English commerce. The, condition of trade in our towns at this moment was very distressing, and he hoped that the Government would not lose sight of this opportunity to effect some improvement in it.
MR. H. SETON-KARRcalled attention to the paragraph in the Speech from the Throne dealing with agricultural depression, and asked the Government how it was that they had failed to take any notice of the, great industrial depression which was now

121
prevailing in the country. He desired to move an Amendment on a broader basis than that which had been proposed by the hon. Member for Sheffield, namely,—
"That this House humbly expresses its regret, in view of the great industrial as well as agricultural depression now prevailing in this country, that no adequate portion of the time of Parliament is proposed to be given to the amelioration or relief of any such depression."
That Amendment depended upon three propositions: (1), the great agricultural and industrial depression prevailing and the large numbers of men desirous to obtain work and unable to obtain It; (2), the number of legislative proposals which demanded the consideration of the House; and (3), that the Government, who were absolute masters of the time of the House, were not giving any adequate proportion of its time to legislative proposals. On the first point the Government had admitted in the Speech that there was great agricultural depression, and he was surprised that they had made no reference to the industrial depression, It was admitted that the exports of domestic produce were a sure test of the industrial prosperity or the reverse of any country. It was a remarkable fact, moreover, that directly they had a Radical Administration in power the figures showed that trade depression at once prevailed. Take, as an example, the price of wheat. When the late Unionist Administration was in power wheat was 35s. a quarter; the price had risen under the late Administration. But during the last three years, under the rule of the present Government, the price of wheat had steadily fallen until it was now only 20s. a quarter. The figures in connection with the exports of domestic produce showed exactly the same phenomenon when a Radical Government was in power. In 1892 the exports of domestic produce were £227,000,000 in value; in 1893 they were £218,500,000, and last year they had fallen to £216,000,000. Manufacturers of all kinds also were transferring their capital to other countries, and the trade was leaving our shores. Yet the Government refused to take note of the industrial depression. He cited his own constituency of St. Helens as an illustration, and showed that great depression existed there at this moment. St.
122
Helens, at one time, supplied a fourth of the goods tonnage of the London and North-Western Railroad; but the wants of the men in that district had not received any consideration on the part of the Government. Though the Government were responsible for the time of the House they had given no indication that they were going to propose any measures to alleviate the distress. There used to be a time when private Members had the opportunity of bringing in Bills dealing with questions affecting their own constituencies, but they had been, denied that right by the Government. The Government had deliberately refused to give an opportunity for the consideration of these important social questions. He was interested in a Bill for the amendment of the Merchandise Marks Act, and he would point out that in the glass bottle trade, in which hundreds, if not thousands, of men were employed, large quantities of glass bottles were at present imported into this country and sold as of English make, with the result that the trade suffered most severely. They had never, however, been able to get the subject considered since the present Government came into power, and they wished to know why Bills were not allowed to be brought in to benefit the masses of the country. In the Session of 1894 the hon. Member for Sheffield moved an Amendment to the Address stating that the great depression in this country called for the immediate attention of Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman, the then President of the Board of Trade, got up, and amongst other excuses for not dealing with the question, said that the, Labour Commission at that time had not reported. That excuse could not be made now. The Commission had reported several months ago, and had made something like fourteen specific recommendations dealing with arbitration and conciliation in labour disputes. He admitted that there, was a Bill put forward upon that subject, but he, wished to know why the recommendations as to the organisation and development of labour, the wages and hours of labour, non-unionist labour, and the sanitary condition of workmens dwellings, had not received a more prominent place in the Queens Speech. He quoted other instances in which the

123
Government had had an opportunity given them of bringing in legislation on such matters, and had not taken advantage of it. On December 12th, 1893, a motion was moved by the hon. Member for West Ham, pointing out the number of deaths in London from starvation, and asking the Government to inquire into the causes. The right hon. Gentleman, the leader of the Opposition, made a most interesting speech on that occasion; he reminded the House that fourteen different remedies were mentioned in that particular debate. In fact, numberless proposals had been put forward, and the Government had absolutely ignored them all. The obvious moral to be drawn from the Report of the Labour Commission was that the Government should now give the House time for the consideration of these matters. Not only had they declined to give any time themselves, but their practice during the last three years had been also to misappropriate the time of private Members. They all admitted that there was great industrial depression in the country. Numberless proposals had been brought forward in that House to alleviate or remedy this state of things. The Government had not, he urged, devoted adequate time to these matters in the past, and what prospect was there of any time whatever being given up to their consideration this Session? They were warned that the Church was to be disestablished in Wales, that there were to be two Irish Land Bills, and that one of the most thorny questions which could be imagined, the subject of Temperance, was to be dealt with. Then they were to have a Resolution which would embody the principle of the abolition of the House of Lords. What chance would private Members have of getting any share of the time of the House? He thought it was time that they should enter a protest against the further misuse of the time of the House.
COLONEL W. KENYON-SLANEYsaid, he wished to refer to one or two points in the Royal Speech. He agreed with the declaration which had been made that it was intended to deal with Imperial matters in an Imperial spirit, and he hoped those words would find an echo in the legislation which the Government might propose. As to the question of naval expenditure, they did not get that assurance from the Chancellor of the Exchequer which they expected to have. He hoped they would be assured that there would be no want of honesty and completeness in the way in which the naval expenditure would be dealt with by the Government. It was generally recognised throughout the country that the naval expenditure should be no matter of Party voting, and that it should be large and sufficient. He hoped for an assurance from the Government that there would be no attempt to catch votes in connection with this matter, and that the expenditure would be based on a scheme for carrying out a programme to place the country in the position in which it ought to be with regard to the naval establishments. With regard to China and Japan and the state of Armenia, he had little to say. He came to the question of Ireland, and they were asked did they endorse the satisfaction felt as to the decrease of criminal offences? They did endorse it heartily. If there were a competition between that side of the House and the other on this question, it was an honourable one as to which system was the best. Both Governments had probably taken the right measures to meet the necessities of the time and both were to be congratulated on their success. He invited those who asked them to look at this question in a calm and just spirit to remember that their opponents view deserved consideration even though it might conflict with some of their prejudices. An hon. Member opposite had spoken in positive

125
terms of the absolute necessity of dealing with the question of the evicted tenants. They on that side of the House did not agree with the terms "must" and "shall in a case of that sort. They recollected the circumstances connected with the evictions, and although they had every sympathy with the victims of a ridiculous agitation, they had not much sympathy with those who came and said that legislation must be passed. It would be wiser for these people to base their claims on the ground that they had been misled. The question of the Welsh Church was a thorny subject. He presumed he was correct in thinking that the necessity for the Bill rested entirely upon the increasing opinion of the Nonconformists of Wales in favour of such a measure. He pointed to the fact that the defeated candidate at Evesham had alleged as one of the primary reasons of his defeat that dissent generally was waning in that constituency. If that was the case in Worcestershire, might it not possibly be that over the border in Wales there did not exist that strong desire for separation which the Government thought justified them in their action. Of course, they on that side regarded the measure as fraught with immense mischief, and they would probably oppose it to a certain extent—to an extent that would prevent it passing. Living on the borders of Wales, and having a large interest there, he had not been able to ascertain that the feeling was so genuine, so widespread, or so keen as appeared on the surface. However, he was quite willing to allow that there were two sides to the question. In regard to the Local Veto Bill, the Seconder of the Address made a curious admission. He said he was glad the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been willing to obtain certain modifications of the former Bill, because it would create a half-way house for the votes of the people. He did not think that admission would be satisfactory to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It was a curious fact that they had it on the uncontradicted assertion of the Seconder of the Address that the Liquor Bill was to be altered in order that a half-way house might be created to catch the votes of the population. Another curious statement had been made in reference to plural voting, and it was to the effect
126
that there were classes now who had the vote, that paid no taxes, either directly or indirectly. It was only last Session that there was a great conflict of opinion on the point as to whether taxes were paid directly or indirectly by certain classes of the population, and he thought the statement referred to was curiously in conflict with the various assertions which had been previously made on the matter. It was a curious state of things that they could find no harmony of argument or assertion between the supporters of the Government and Ministers themselves on these important questions. With regard to the question of Agricultural Depression, it was impossible for anyone who had any knowledge of the rural districts to speak of the matter in other than the most serious terms. Hon. Members who were deeply interested in the subject did their best to raise the matter last Session, and to point out the terrible condition of Agriculture. They pleaded for ameliorative Measures, but they were met on the part of the Government, either by neglect, or coldness, or the stereotyped reply that there was no time to deal with the matter. Notwithstanding that Agriculture was bleeding from every vein, and was rapidly dying out as one of the industries of the country, the greatest blow which has ever been inflicted upon it was the Budget of last year. The evil effects of that blow were being realised more and more every day. As time went on, more and more estates would be subjected to that iniquitous Budget, and more and more would the agricultural classes experience the ruinous effects of it. He urged that great anxiety ought to be shown on the part of the Advisers of Her Majesty to deal with this question in a way which would tend to palliate former mistakes, and to avert what might otherwise become a great National disaster. They looked with keen anxiety that something genuine, earnest, and real might now be done in the matter, but he regretted to say, that they were met. with the assertion that it was really unfair, at present, to ask the Government to suggest any remedy, that a Royal Commission was sitting at that moment, and that, therefore, it would be premature and unwise to take out of the lips of that Royal Commission any pronouncements on the question that it might make sooner or later.

127
The Government, however, did not say that absolutely nothing was to be done before the Report of the Commission was issued, and they had thought right to propose an immediate Measure for the benefit of the agricultural interest. That immediate Measure was to be the construction of light railways. The Mover of the Address had spoken of the boon which such railways would be when they brought producer and consumer into closer connection. They might be a boon in that way, no doubt, but it should be borne in mind that no great advantage would be gained by the producer unless the consumer was prepared to give him a price for his produce which would make his efforts remunerative. Many hon. Members fail to recognise that that which might produce great good in some districts, might do very little good in others. There were, no doubt, districts at present not well served by railways, in which the introduction of light railways would be beneficial; but the benefit would depend upon this, whether the introduction of light railways into those; districts was to be in the shape of a boon or a burden. By throwing the expense of the change upon the localities the State would probably augment the disadvantages under which they laboured at present. Unless no fresh burden was to be imposed upon localities under the scheme of the Government, it was not worth talking about or bringing forward. Upon this point they had heard nothing as yet from any responsible Member of the Government. If the Government were not prepared to establish their scheme out of Imperial resources; if they intended that any fresh burden should be imposed upon localities, then their proffered boon to the agricultural interest was a mere farce and humbug.
MAJOR RASCHwished to know who was going to pay for these light railways. Unless the Agriculturists of his part of the county got those railways very soon, all he could say was there would be nothing for them to carry. He ridiculed the idea propounded last Session by the right hon. Gentleman, now Secretary of State of India, that the burden of local taxation now was infinitely lighter on rural districts than on urban districts. What were the facts? A man farming, say 1,000
128
acres of land paid something like £400 a year in tithe, rates and taxes, or about 8s. or 8s. 6d. an acre. A man living in town was rated on his house alone, and on a house rented at, say £100 he paid £30 a year in taxes. The statement of the right hon. Gentleman was therefore ridiculous. Now light railways were very expensive, costing from £4,000 to £5,000 a year, and in addition the promoters had to go to Parliament for the requisite powers. The expense of that, as was well known, was enormous; while the requirements of the Board of Trade were such as to make light railways by no means inexpensive to work. But there was a way out of the difficulty. Let the President of the Board of Trade dismiss the idea of starting light railways and substitute instead the system of Steam Tramways, which had been tried with great success in France and Belgium. In constructing Steam Tramways, the promoters had not to incur expense in a Committee Room upstairs. Steam Tramways could be laid by the side of the ordinary high road, and there would be no difficulty about getting land. If land was required, why should not the County Council have the power to arrange the transaction, subject to the advice and sanction of the Board of Trade, with some other Government department. Then, in the case of Steam Tramways, trolly roads could be constructed to farms, and there was no conceivable reason why the great expense which would be incurred by laying down light railways should not be got over by the construction of Steam Tramways. But that did not do away with the main question, and that was, if these light railways were going to be constructed, who was going to pay for them. If the Government were going to give them, and require them to be paid for out of the rates, then he would rather not have them at all.
SIR E. ASHMEAD—BARTLETTmoved, the adjournment of the Debate.
MR. J. MORLEYsaid, the Government would make no objection to the Motion.
Motion agreed to.
House adjourned at ten minutes to Twelve oclock till To-morrow Twelve oclock.

Preamble
THE PARLIAMENT, which had been prorogued from Saturday, the 25th day of August 1894, met this day for the despatch of business.
The Session was opened by Commission.
The HOUSE of PEERS being met,
The LORD CHANCELLOR acquainted the House,
"That Her Majesty not thinking it fit to be present here this day, has been pleased to cause a Commission to be issued under the Great Seal in order to the opening and holding of this Parliament."
Then Five LORDS COMMISSIONERS—namely, The Lord Chancellor (Lord Herschell), Earl Spencer, Lord Tweedmouth, The Marquess of Breadalbane, and Lord Carrington (being in their Robes, and seated on a bench placed between the Throne and the Woolsack) commanded the Yeoman
2
Usher of the Black Rod to let the Commons know that—
"The Lords Commissioners desire their immediate attendance in this House to hear the Commission read."
Who being at the Bar, with their Speaker:—
The Commission was read by the Clerk:—Then—

THE QUEENS SPEECH.
THE LORD CHANCELLORdelivered HER MAJESTYS MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH to both Houses of Parliament as follows:—
My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"My relations with foreign Powers remain on a friendly and satisfactory footing.
An Agreement has been concluded, after protracted negotiations, between my Government and that of the French Republic for the settlement of the frontier between my Colony of Sierra Leone and the neighbouring French possessions.
I regret to say that the war between China and Japan still continues. I have

3
maintained a close and cordial understanding with the Powers interested in those regions, and shall lose no favourable opportunity of promoting a peaceful termination of the contest.
In consequence of reports which reached my Government of excesses committed by Turkish troops, regular or irregular, on Armenians in a district of Asia Minor, I thought it right, in conjunction with other Powers, to make representations to the Porte. The Sultan has declared his intention of severely punishing any of his officers or soldiers who have been guilty of such acts, and has sent a Commission to conduct an investigation on the spot. Delegates from the Powers which have Consuls at Erzeroum will accompany this Commission.
Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
The Estimates for the year will be laid before you without delay.
My Lords, and Gentlemen,
I am happy to observe the striking fact that in Ireland offences of all kinds against the law have sunk during the past year to the lowest level hitherto marked in official records.
Proposals will be submitted to you for remedying defects which experience has brought to light in the working of the Law of Landlord and Tenant in Ireland; and for dealing with certain evicted tenants, whose situation still constitutes a peril to social order.
A Bill will be presented to you dealing with the Church Establishment in Wales.
Bills will also be laid before you having for their object the popular control of the Liquor Traffic; the abolition of plural voting; and provision for the payment of the charges of the Returning Officers at elections.
The Commission which I issued in 1893 to report on the best means of unifying the Government of the Metropolis has presented its Report, and a
4
Bill will be laid before you founded on its recommendations.
I regret that Agriculture continues in a seriously depressed condition. This subject is still under the consideration of the Commission which I appointed in the Autumn of 1893. In the meantime, a proposal will be submitted to you for facilitating the construction of Light Railways, a measure which will, I trust, be found beneficial to the rural districts.
Bills will also be presented for the promotion of conciliation in trade disputes, and for the amendment of the Factory Acts.
You will be asked to consider measures for the completion of the system of County Government in Scotland, and for further legislation in respect of the Crofter population in that country.
I pray that the blessing of Almighty God may rest upon your arduous and responsible labours."
Then the Commons withdrew.
House adjourned during pleasure.

ROLL OF THE LORDS.
Garter King of Arms attending, delivered at the Table (in the usual manner) a List of the Lords Temporal in the Fourth Session of the Twenty-fifth Parliament of the United Kingdom: The same was ordered to lie on the Table.
The House resumed at 20 minutes past 4 oclock.

SAT FIRST.
The Earl of Derby—after the death of his brother.
The Earl Grey—after the death of his uncle.
The Duke of Somerset—after the death of his father.
The Marquess of Ailesbury—after the death of his nephew.
The Earl of Albemarle—after the death of his father.
The Viscount Hardinge—after the death of his father.
Randall Thomas, Lord Bishop of Rochester—was (in the usual manner) introduced.

DISMISSAL OF IRISH OFFTCIALS.
LORD ASHBOURNE: I beg to give notice that on Monday next I will call attention to the dismissal of the President of Queens College, Galway, and of the President and Chairman of the Irish Prisons Board, and move for the production of papers.
WINDING-UP CASES.

  PERSONAL EXPLANATIOX BY THE LORD CHANCELLOR.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I deeply regret to have to interpose before this House proceeds to the ordinary course of business to-day, but I am quite sure that your Lordships will grant me indulgence while I make a personal statement. During the last two weeks grave imputations of misconduct have been made against me. If they had touched me alone I should not have troubled your Lordships at the present time, but they relate to my discharge of the duties of the high office which I hold. If they were true I should be unworthy to remain Speaker of this House. I am told that they are unchallenged and un-contradicted. It seemed to me that the proper place in which to challenge and contradict them was in this House, over whose deliberations I have the honour to preside, and I seize the earliest opportunity of doing so. My Lords, the charges relate, to my action in relation to the proceedings in winding-up Companies which are in liquidation. All that I have done can be briefly told. In the year 1892 the hearing of these causes was assigned to Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams by my noble and learned Friend who preceded me. In the summer of that year difficulties arose owing to the learned Judges absence on circuit, and an arrangement was made by which he was replaced during his absence by Mr. Justice A. L. Smith. In the following year, 1893, similar difficulties arose, and strong representations were made to me on the subject. I received communications from the Incorporated Law Society and from the Bar Committee, and it occurred to me that the difficulty might be met by an arrangement under which another Judge should be named who, in the absence of Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams, might take the, winding-up cases. That arrangement was made with the full concurrence of both of the
  6
  Judges concerned, Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams and Mr. Justice Wright. In the summer of last year, when the circuit arrangements had been made, I found that both those learned Judges were going circuit, and a new arrangement became absolutely necessary. Mr. Justice Romer, during that circuit, undertook to hear these cases. The suggestion that he should do so came from Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams himself. When on the present occasion Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams was again to be absent from London on circuit duties, I asked Mr. Justice Romer, and he assented, to take the cases now which he had taken before. My Lords, that is all I have done, and it is now practically admitted that as regards anything I have done no complaint can be made. But it is said "the complaint is not of what you have done, but that you contemplated a more permanent transfer of these causes, and that you contemplated it, not on grounds of public policy, but from corrupt and discreditable motives." My Lords, it is, I think, somewhat unusual for a public man to be called on to explain, not anything he has done, not anything he has announced his intention of doing, but something which it is said he contemplated doing. But as in nothing I have done, so in nothing I have contemplated doing is there any occasion for me to fear the light. There is just this grain of truth, and this alone, in all the statements that, have been made, that the expediency of a more permanent transfer of winding-up cases has been under consideration. Of course such a change contemplated on public grounds alone would involve no discredit to anyone, even if opinions might differ as to its expediency. But as it has been stated that corrupt motives, and not regard for the public interest, dictated its consideration, it is necessary, in order to meet these base charges, that I should state the facts which forced mo to consider the expediency of the change. My Lords, when the Winding-up Act was passed these cases were heard by the several Judges of the Chancery Division. In the year 1892 my noble and learned Friend who preceded me in this office assigned the hearing of these cases, under the powers conferred on him by the Act, to Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams. At that time, as my noble

  7
  and learned Friend will no doubt remember, apprehensions were expressed by some that this change might give rise to difficulty when the Judge was on circuit; and, in addition to this, some thought it might interfere with the due progress of the business in the Queens Bench Division. But there were public grounds which seemed to my noble and learned Friend at that time—and I do not for a moment suggest he was wrong—to render it expedient that the cases should be assigned in the manner in which he assigned them. But the circuit difficulty soon presented itself, and, as I have already told your Lordships, on the first occasion on which there was a circuit after this assignment of causes, another Judge—Mr. Justice A. L. Smith—took the place of Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams. In the Spring of the following year the same difficulties were experienced, and considerable complaints were made to me that winding-up cases were not heard with the speed and continuousness that was desirable. My Lords, the learned Judge to whom the work had been assigned made the most strenuous efforts to avoid, as far as possible, any inconvenience arising from his absence on circuit. He came up frequently from great distances on spare days to discharge the duties assigned to him; and I desire to pay my fullest tribute to the energy and zeal he displayed to render the inconvenience to the public as small as possible. Nevertheless that inconvenience was felt, and the strongest representations were made to me of the necessity of a change, by the Bar Committee and by the Incorporated Law Society. It was impossible in the face of these representations not to recognise that an evil existed for which a remedy was to be found. As I have said, I asked another Judge—Mr. Justice Wright—to assist, so that when Mr. Justice Vaughan. Williams was on circuit Mr. Justice Wright might hear these cases. At the same time I expressed a hope that it might be possible to arrange so that both those Judges should never be absent on circuit at the same time, and the learned Judges told me they thought it would be possible to secure such an arrangement—in which case, of course, all that was desired would have been accomplished, and matters would have gone quite smoothly.
  8
  It is right I should state here, in consequence of some observations that have been made, that it does not rest with me what Judges shall go circuit or what circuits they shall go. The practice from time immemorial has been for the Judges in rotation, to select their own circuit. It is a matter of arrangement between them. If a Judge whose turn has arisen to go circuit remains in London, another takes his place. With that I could not interfere. All I could do, of course, was to make any suggestions that occurred to me from time to time. Well, my Lords, in the summer of last year I saw from the Assize List that both Judges were to leave town, I think on the same day, or almost on the same day, and that they would be absent for several weeks. Upon that I inquired whether an arrangement could not be made by which one of them should remain in town. I found that was not possible, apparently, and consequently, as something had to be done, this business was undertaken during the summer of last year by Mr. Justice Romer. When I communicated to the Bar Committee the arrangement made, Sir Henry James, writing on their behalf, used this language:—
  "The Bar Committee desire to express some doubt whether the stop mentioned in your letter which the Lord Chancellor suggests may be taken to remedy the existing evil will adequately do so."
  On behalf of the Committee he called my attention to the joint report of February, 1892, as pointing out the measures which the joint committee thought were desirable to meet the now admitted evil. The Bar Committee, therefore, at that time, notwithstanding the arrangement I had made, reiterated that view. But, of course, if the difficulty had not arisen from both Judges being absent on circuit, I should have remained perfectly content with the arrangement that had been made. The cases were heard by Mr. Justice Romer, and it was found that he could discharge the duties which that work involved without interfering with the other duties which he had to discharge as a Judge of the Chancery Division. At that time another difficulty confronted me. Mr. Justice Barnes, one of the Judges of the Probate Division, was ill and absent, and I found that that illness was likely to last a considerable

  9
  time. It has lasted down to the present time. I rejoice to think that the learned Judge is recovering, and that we may hope to see him again discharging his duties. The consequence was, that the President of the Probate Division made the most pressing suggestions to me that I should endeavour to arrange for his assistance by one of the Judges of the Queens Bench Division. I communicated with the Lord Chief Justice on the subject, and one of the Judges of the Queens Bench Division took his place. This, of course, interfered with the arrangements of the Queens Bench Division, and it certainly then did occur to me whether there might not be relief to that Division by assigning the work which was then being done by a Judge of the Queens Bench Division to a Judge of the Chancery Division, there being two additional reasons for supporting such a change; the one was, that the absence of the Judge from the Queens Bench Division seriously interfered with new arrangements, made in the public interest, to secure the continuous presence at particular seasons of a certain number of Judges, and the other being that the work of the Chancery Division by that time was in a state so satisfactory that I thought that the time, which would be occupied by allotting this company work to a Judge of the Chancery Division, might well be spared from the time which was required for the ordinary duties of that Division. Upon this I had confidential communication with Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams and Mr. Justice Romer, but beyond this nothing was done. The change was not definitely determined, but whilst the reasons in its favour seemed to me, and still seem to me, to be weighty, I was not unconscious that there were grave arguments on the other side; and before the present controversy arose, before these articles were written, before these attacks were made, I had determined—and I had communicated that determination to my secretary, whose duty it would have been to draw up the Order if I had come to the conclusion that I should make one—to leave matters as they were at present. My Lords, I have now stated the facts. What are the charges? It is said that there was friction between the Lord Chancellor and Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams in regard to the action of the
  10
  latter in the New Zealand Loan case; that the sacrifice of Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams was definitely intended to be carried into effect; and that the contemplated removal of this strong and able Judge, from a position which he was filling to the entire satisfaction of the mercantile community and the legal profession, was resolved upon—partly in consequence of his conduct in the matter I have mentioned, and partly owing to the apprehension that he would act in the same way in other matters which are now pending in his Court. Now this involves two charges. The first is, that I acted from resentment of what the learned Judge had done; and the second, that I desired to screen some one. Both of these charges are absolutely and utterly untrue. I will deal with them separately. I have told your Lordships what led me to consider the question whether it would be well to make a change. Is there any one that cannot see that there may be motives—perfectly creditable motives and inspired by a desire for the public interest—sufficient to induce me to consider such a matter? I certainly had no such motive as resentment on account of what the learned Judge had done. No such mean or ridiculous thought ever crossed my mind for a moment. There was no friction between me and the learned Judge in regard to the New Zealand case. The only communications I have ever had with the learned Judge in respect to the winding up of companies have been on points of general application. I believe in most of the cases it was on the learned Judges request that I sought a conference with him. The conferences we had on those points were throughout of a friendly character, and I believe, that our views on the points which we discussed did not substantially differ. My Lords, the opinion which was delivered by Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams on the New Zealand case was delivered on May 8. It was some time after that that I asked him if he could not arrange to get some one to go circuit for him in order that he might remain in town and continue his duties in regard to the winding up of Companies. That was after the time it is said that this resentment was in my mind because of the action of Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams in certain cases. I never

  11
  entertained the question until it was brought to my notice, under the circumstances I have stated, on August 25, on which day I consulted with the learned Judge on the subject. It was never in my mind to remove these cases from the learned Judge or to transfer them to any one else against his will. If I had the power to do it—a question I will not now enter into—nothing would have been further from my thoughts than that if the learned Judge, after due consideration, differed from me, and if he did not see as I saw that it was for the public good—even if I had the power to do it, I would hesitate long indeed as to disputing his desires and wishes and removing the business from him. But no such contingency ever arose. So much for the first point. The next is that it was partly owing to the apprehension that the learned Judge would act in the same way in other matters now pending in the Court. My Lords, I knew nothing; I know nothing of other matters pending in the Court. I have not the slightest idea what matters are pending there at this day. I had no idea either when the change was spoken about. All I can say is that the suggestion that that was one of my motives in considering this matter is absolutely and utterly without foundation. What more can I say on such a point? But this I can say further. If the change had been made it would certainly have been made so as to leave any pending matters the Judge thought desirable to deal with himself in his own hands. I would not dream of making the change in any other fashion, and I am quite sure the learned Judge would have desired that it should be so made. So much for those matters that I was supposed to desire to transfer from one Judge to another. But, my Lords, what is involved in this statement? As grave an imputation, I venture to say, upon the Judges as it is upon myself. I could only desire to transfer cases from one Judge to another as suggested in order to screen somebody, because I thought the Judge to whom I was transferring them would not act in the same capacity and with the same impartiality in bringing wrongdoers to justice as the Judge from whom the cases were transferred. I venture to say that the independence and fearlessness of the Judges is no
  12
  novelty. It is not a monopoly of this Judge or that Judge. I do not detract, and I am sure the learned Judge to whom I am going to refer—Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams—would not deem that I detract from his high qualities as a Judge when I say that there are other Judges upon the Bench who are as fearless, and as determined to do their duty, and as little influenced by considerations personal, as that learned Judge himself. But, my Lords, if I had sought for a Judge pliant to my will, and willing to screen persons, I should search for him in vain. Then as to the learned Judge to whom reference has been made, there is no one that knows him who does not know that he would be as incapable of doing anything but meting out the most rigorous justice to wrongdoers as any Judge that ever sat on the Bench. My Lords, I say that the article which contains that charge carries its own refutation. It says that it does not attack the competence and integrity of Mr. Justice Romer, as he is admitted to be a Judge of great ability, and of unquestioned impartiality. Then does anybody think that, if I wished to screen any person, I should transfer the business to a Judge of the highest ability, the highest character, and the most unquestionable impartiality? That I should be so foolish and so ignorant of facts that everybody knew with regard to the qualities of this Judge as to transfer cases to him in order to screen some unknown persons, of whom I have no conception, when such persons could not possibly benefit from the change? My Lords, against what I have put before you there is nothing but the assertion of an anonymous writer as to what my motives were. It was felt, I suppose, that further evidence was needed, and in a campaign of scandal there are many ready to forge weapons, and join in the fray. Accordingly, a paragraph taken from the South Wales Daily Post went the round of the papers. It is in these terms—
  "The Press Association states that the South Wales Daily Post last night states—'Important information has reached us from a perfectly reliable quarter bearing on the question whether the proposed replacing of Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams by Mr. Justice Romer in the Chancery Division of the High Court was connected with the recent action of the former Judge in the mutter of the New Zealand Company, of which Mr. Mundella was a director. It is to the effect

  13
  that the Lord Chancellor wrote to Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams asking if he would not withdraw some of the observations made by him in the course of the winding-up action; that Mr. Justice Williams replied that he could not with-draw the observations; and that, upon the request being repeated, the Judge intimated to Lord Herschell that if the matter were pressed further, he would consider it his duty to publish the correspondence."
  Now, my Lords, all that is absolutely and utterly untrue. I never wrote to Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams asking him to withdraw some observations he had made in the New Zealand Company case. I neither wrote nor spoke, directly or indirectly, to Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams asking him to withdraw some of the observations he had made in the New Zealand Company case. It follows, of course, that the learned Judge did not reply; that I did not repeat the request; and that the Judge never intimated to me that, if the matter were pressed, he would consider it his duty to publish correspondence which never existed. But, my Lords, that weapon was cleverly forged. The South, Wales Post does not have its observations generally accorded such wide circulation as they have had on this occasion. Mr. Justice Vaughan Williams happened to be on the South Wales Circuit, and the fact of a paragraph of this kind appearing in a South Wales Newspaper led many people to jump to the conclusion that there must be some thing in it, that the newspaper must have got the information from the learned Judge, especially when it said that it had got the information from a perfectly reliable quarter. I do not know what is the reliable quarter; but I know it is a quarter in which lies are forged and that this is one of them. I venture, my Lords, to say that it is intolerable that those who have to discharge public duties should be subjected to such attacks as these. And more than that, that they should be told that unless they rush into print and write to the newspapers and challenge and contradict these attacks that everybody is to believe them and write articles on the assumption that they are founded on fact. We sometimes see attacks upon the foreign Press for their campaigns of scandal. May it not be well to look once in a while at home, and to see whether if there be a mote in their eye there may not be a beam in our own. I have given my word on this matter; I have given cogent evidence in
  14
  support of my word; but there is something more I am inclined to appeal to. I have now spent 20 years in Parliamentary life—eight of those in office—in that fierce light which is thrown on the action of every man who takes part in Parliamentary life. I ask those who have accused me and those who have been ready to believe the accusation, to what act of mine can they point, or to what word I have uttered that would indicate that I am capable of this contemptible conduct with which I have been charged? My lords, I believe no one could be more alive than I am to the importance of the Judges being independent and being no respecters of persons, for I have myself taken, part in the administration of justice. But there is another danger equally to be guarded against, and it is lest one should trim his sails to catch the passing gust of passion or allow ones judgment to be overborne by popular clamour. My Lords, I do not resent criticism. I welcome it. I hope I never shall be proud enough, or obstinate enough, or stupid enough to fail to profit by it. But the imputation of baseless motives and foul motives is not criticism; it is slander. I have spoken warmly. I hope your Lordships will pardon me, for I have felt deeply. From the first moment that I became Lord Chancellor it has been my dearest ambition that no act of mine should lead to the office being held in less esteem, or should diminish its dignity. For that I care more than for life itself. If I cannot be trusted to discharge the duties which the law has cast upon me, even with common honesty, I ought not to hold the Great Seal for another moment. I am conscious no one more so—that it may, that it will, pass into abler hands than mine. I hope it will not be thought unbecoming of me if I add that it will never be held by any one who will discharge the duties attached to it with a more sincere regard for its great responsibilities.

THE QUEENS SPEECH.

  ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO HER MAJESTYS MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORdelivered the Report of HER MAJESTYS GRACIOUS SPEECH from the Throne.
  *LORD WELBY*LORD WELBY rose to move:—"That an humble Address be presented

  15
  to Her Majesty in reply to the Speech from the Throne." He said that he knew he might rely oil the Houses friendly forbearance when he pleaded that his life had been spent in the public service, and in that branch of the public service of which it was the watchword that its members, serving both parties in the State, should hold their tongues. Since Parliament rose a great power for peace had passed away; but the influence of the late Tsar still survived. The empires of Russia and Great Britain were on most friendly terms. The prospects of peace throughout the world among the great Powers were good; and Her Majesty was able to assure Parliament that her relations with all foreign Powers were friendly. He believed that it was the policy of the noble Marquessopposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) to anticipate in friendly negotiations points in relation to Africa which might arise between England. France, and other Powers, and so to obviate difficulties which in times of excitement might lead to great anxiety. It must, therefore, be a subject of congratulation, not only to Her Majestys Government, but to the noble Marquess also, that Her Majestys Government had been able to conclude an agreement for marking out the boundaries of Sierra Leone and the adjacent territories of France. Might not this be taken as a sample of that happy continuity of foreign policy winch had marked the administrations of the noble Marquess, the present Prime Minister, and Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs? He believed that when the papers were laid before their Lordships they would find that security had been taken for the maintenance of a reasonable tariff between the possessions of Her Majestys Government and France, and also that security had been taken for free intercourse between the subjects of all Powers. From one quarter there came "steaming up a lamentation and an ancient tale of wrong," coupled with stories of events which had deeply moved the public mind. But those stories were at present unconfirmed, and he thought it would be agreed that in equity we must wait to hear more about them. At all events, the Porte had promised and instituted an inquiry, and Her Majestys Government, under
  16
  the powers conferred upon them by the Treaty of Berlin, in concert with other Powers, had appointed delegates to watch the progress of the inquiry. By that means he thought the country might rest assured that due precautions had been taken for eliciting the truth, and that when the truth had been elicited justice would be done. It must be gratifying to all that Her Majesty was able to announce a decrease of crime in Ireland. It was a striking fact that the outrages reported in 1894 were fewer than in any year since Her Majesty ascended the Throne; and that with respect to agrarian outrages alone, they were lower than in any year for the last 18 years. Might he not express the hope that this was in some degree owing to the legislation of past years in which both Parties in the State had shared; and, speaking from the Government side of the House, might he not also attribute it in some degree to the fact that a large section of Great Britain desired legislation in accordance with Irish ideas? Their Lordships were aware that in 1896 15 years would have elapsed since the passing of the Act of 1881; and it would be necessary to make provision for the proceedings after the expiry of that statutory period in cases as they arose. Her Majestys Government would ask Parliament at the same time to remedy certain defects which were deemed to have occurred in the working of the Land Act. It had been found that there was a certain want of uniformity in the decision of the Courts. Also, that there was a question whether the tenants always got full allowance for the improvements which they had created. There was further question whether, under Town Parks, land really used for agricultural purposes was not included; and there was a defect in the definitions of the Act of 1881 which, at all events, ought to be remedied. He was aware that there was a considerable difference of opinion upon this subject; and that a large body of opinion in Ireland was opposed to the proposed legislation. At the same time, there were, among the high authorities in Ireland, men quite as opposed to the general policy of the present Government as any noble Lord opposite, who thought that these questions ought to be settled, and that it was desirable to settle them without

  17
  delay. Might it not be possible, if that were the case, that some arrangement should be found by which a measure should be passed into law settling these questions, and not leaving them to clog for an indefinite time the legislation of future Sessions? It was proposed, also, to reintroduce a Bill which did not pass into law the last Session—a Bill for the reinstating of the evicted tenants. He thought that on this point there was not a real difference of principle between the two sides of the House; because, if he remembered aright, the principle enunciated in the Evicted Tenants Bill was also enunciated in Mr. Balfours Act of 1891. At all events, last year, the attitude of the two Parties made many people think that an agreement between them was not impossible. Might it not be hoped that a happier issue would attend the bringing in of the Bill this year than it was possible to achieve last year? Her Majesty further recommended a measure for the amalgamation of the City and County of London on the basis of the Report of the Royal Commission, presided over by Mr. Courtney. The Act of 1888 in reality conferred a new charter, though, perhaps, an imperfect one, on London; and there was no greater proof of the value of that charter than the amount of Municipal feeling which it had elicited. If he were asked to adduce a further proof of that feeling, he should only refer to the lists published day by day, of the candidates for the coming County Council election. But the Act of 1888 was, to a certain exent, imperfect. It created a central body outside the City, but it did not create local bodies. The consequence was that, without any fault of the London County Council, the weight of all the details of administration devolved on the Council; and, moreover, in consequence of the absence of those local bodies, Parliament had been obliged in the interval to impose still further duties upon the Council. All parties were agreed that these district bodies should be created, and that the work of development should begin; but he was afraid that here the agreement ceased. The scheme of the Royal Commission on the basis of which Her Majesty s Government proposed to act, contemplated a full development of the principle of Local Government. It proposed
  18
  to create district bodies directly elected, to transfer to and to invest in them all powers not necessarily reserved to the Central Authority. The Central Authority would inherit the privileges and the associations of the City, but would enjoy a greater authority, inasmuch as it would represent London in its entirety. On the other side, an alternative scheme and been sketched out by an authority well entitled to speak on London government. Under that scheme the City of London would be unreformed. It would continue, though only a fragment of London, to represent London as a whole; but the real London would have no part in the body which so represented it. The City would be surrounded by a number of small municipalities independent of each other, with no inducement to common action and no controlling power able to enforce common action; for the scheme of the noble Lord spoke of the central body as the servant of the municipalities, and it was difficult to see how the servant could possess a controlling power. Had not this scheme, however, somewhat of a punitive appearance? It was an old custom in the case of objectionable persons to hang, draw, and quarter them as a warning to other objectionable persons. Was the Capital of the Empire to be quartered and its sections put up in districts of the Metropolis not as a type but as a warning to other municipalities? He was afraid that this belittling of London was due to a distrust of the County Council not altogether justified. During the short time he had been connected with the County Council he had been struck by the amount and goodness of the work undertaken as well as by the excellent manner in which it had been done. It was said that the County Council under the impulse of extreme men entered upon rash and dangerous experiments and wasted the ratepayers money. Take the wages question as an example. As far as he could see the County Council did not differ in principle from Parliament itself. He had looked at the programmes of the Progressive and Moderate Parties, and he scarcely saw any difference between them. Undoubtedly the County Council had undertaken and executed a number of works as an experiment; and this was represented as

  19
  a very dangerous experiment. But in this policy was the County Council doing more than following the example of many bodies throughout the country, including that, very revolutionary body the London and North-Western. Railway Company? He admitted that it was an experiment, but it was an experiment conducted under such keen criticism and watched by such experts that its weak points would be found out and would be duly reported to the country. The increase in the rate was admitted, but he asked whether it was more, at all events on one point, than the natural consequences of the extended demands of the public necessitated? If their Lordships were to judge by the rate alone, what would be the verdict passed on the Imperial Parliament judged by the increase in the national rate in the last few years? It might, again, be urged that in carrying out this experimental policy the County Council entertained schemes emanating from the Labour Party. Did it stand alone in this? Had Parliament never made a leap in the dark? Were there no projects of experimental finance afloat and spoken of as not unacceptable to high authority; and were there not signs that retreat to Toynbee Hall was becoming an exercise of religion in Conservative politics? With reference to the passage of Her Majestys speech referring to the depression in the agricultural interest, their Lordships were aware that a Royal Commission was now sitting to examine the question; but the example of other similar inquiries which marked their history like milestones since the Peace did not give lively promise of any immediate or heroic remedy. He passed by empirical measures intended to raise prices as not coming within the domain of practical politics. The complaint was that the value of agricultural produce was so low that it did not pay the producers. Produce is so abundant in our ports that supply well-nigh outstrips demand. He said that an eminent American economist not long ago observed that the American farmer sold his wheat in the early seventies in Europe at 54s. a quarter; in 1890 the price was 32s. a quarter, but he still sold at a profit, thanks to labour-saving appliances and to the reduction in the
  20
  rate of transport. But the downward stream did not stop there, and the American farmer complained as loudly as the English farmer that when wheat was 20s. or less per quarter he could not grow his wheat at a profit. The reason for those low prices was due to new railroads being constructed every year and to new fields of supply being opened up, as well as to swifter ships and keener competition, and the shipowner complained as loudly as the farmer that he could not get a profit. Wheat was now carried from New York to Liverpool for 5s. a ton, and wheat, which in 1873 was carried from California to Europe for 70s. to 75s. a ton, was carried in December last at 28s. 6d. a ton. But it was not private competition alone that was at work. Governments throughout the world co-operated with the farmer in reducing cost of transport, and in making the world into one big market, and they must not be surprised at the natural consequence—low prices. Any idea, therefore, of a speedy or perhaps eventual rise in prices must be rejected by those suffering from agricultural depression. Government is powerless to raise prices, even if it wished to do so. But ought they to wish for a rise in prices? Surely the object of Government was the greatest good of the greatest number, and was there a greater good for the mass of the people than cheap food. Would any one dare to assert the converse and say that cheap food was an evil. But were their Lordships satisfied that our farmers made full use of their markets? He spoke with diffidence, but might perhaps offer an illustration of his meaning. In 1861 Denmark sent butter to this country worth £105,000; in 1894 it sent butter worth £5,850,000. He understood that in this interval the Danish farmers had taken largely to co-operative farming, and that their butter practically commanded the market as compared with our own. Was it not possible for something to be done to regain that butter trade for English farmers? The past year had been a bad one owing to slack trade and agricultural depression, but he thought they might say that the mass of the working population had done fairly well. Pauperism had not increased. As far as he could learn, the numbers of the unemployed had not grown, and wages

  21
  had been very fairly maintained. In certain fluctuating trades they had no doubt gone down, but the Customs and Inland Revenue returns showed that the working classes had been able to avail themselves of the cheap prices of articles of consumption. The Revenue was keeping fairly well up; the Customs Revenue was good; and the item of stamps, which marked commercial transactions, was also doing well. As far as he could learn, the Beer Duty was increasing, though, on the other hand, the Spirit Duties were not quite so good. He did not know the reason for the falling oil. Perhaps it was due in part to the uncertainty as to spirit legislation in the future. The Income Tax had been of late more or less stationary. Had noble Lords thought of the ever-progressing expenditure on armaments and the sources out, of which that expenditure would he met? Parliament would not give any Chancellor of the Exchequer the confidence which George I. placed in his Chancellor, when he said that Walpole could turn stones into gold. Perhaps when Statesmen were embarassed in devising new taxes, recourse would be had to an old implement of finance which Parliament had relegated to the museum of Treasury antiquities—he meant economy. He begged to move—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, as followeth:—
  Most Gracious Sovereign,
  We, Your Majestys most dutiful and loyal subjects the Commons of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, in parliament assembled, beg leave to thank Your Majesty for the, Most Gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament."
  *LORD BATTERSEA,in seconding the address, said, that he was sure that whatever opinion they might have of the merits or demerits of the Bills shadowed out in the Gracious Speech from the Throne, they would agree that the Government deserved to be congratulated on seizing the first opportunity of placing measures of great importance before Parliament measures to which they had pledged themselves at and before the last General Election—measures which, if they came into law, would do much to improve the, social, political, and religious condition of all classes in the country.
  22
  At the commencement of his political career he sat for a Welsh constituency, and he seized that opportunity to thank the Government, in the name, of his old constituents, and in the name of the bulk of the Welsh people, for the promise of a Bill dealing with the Establishment of the English Church in Wales. He was aware that the question bristled with difficulties, that it, would be hotly contested on both sides, that it was one which deserved their most serious consideration, and it ought to be justly dealt with. He gave full credit to those who differed from him for the noblest motives and the highest resolves, but he claimed for himself and those who agreed with him the same tolerance and the same mutual spirit of fairplay. It had been admitted by the noble Marquess and by the noble Duke over and over again that under our Representative system if on any given question the opinion of the people was clearly defined and made out, that opinion should prevail. There could be no shadow of doubt as to the opinion of the Welsh people on this subject. It was clearly defined and made out. In 1880, after the last Reform Bill, there were four Members returned for Wales who have opposed this Bill. It was a test measure then as it was now. That minority had been raised as high as five, but at the present moment it was only three. Of these three two were returned by majorities under 100, and it was only in the other instance that the majority was considerable. On the other hand, those who had been returned to support this Bill were returned in every case by a majority of over 2,000. He claimed for the, Welsh people that they were not surpassed by any other as courageous, loyal, a law-abiding and Bible-loving community. The fact was, whether they liked it or not, the Welsh people were a people of the Nonconformist faith, and this was with them the outward and visible, sign of an inward and a spiritual conviction. There was not the slightest intention on the part of the Government or of the Welsh people, or of those who supported the Bill, to in any way injure or "desecrate" the fabric of the Church. They did not want to belittle Its Ministers, or those who, like

  23
  themselves, worshipped within the walls of the Church, still less to diminish its spiritual authority. They wished to remove certain evils which hampered its progress, and at the same time to remove a national grievance, and so open up new paths for religious advance. It was in that spirit that the Bill was proposed by the Government, with the desire to set up and strengthen in the Principality a united religion worthy of the peoples love and respect, which would not require the support of a privileged minority against the wills and inclinations of a vastly preponderating majority of the people. He passed to another subject. They were constantly being twitted with proposing great constitutional changes to the neglect of social reforms. When he read in the Gracious Speech from the Throne the reference to the great question of the liquor traffic, he thought the argument could no longer be fairly used. If there was one subject which was more than another a social question it was the liquor traffic, which lay at the root of all their social grievances and problems. He trusted when that Bill came before them it would not be treated from a Party, but from a national, point of view. He knew something of the Prime Minister, and a good deal of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and they were not, in his opinion, fanatics, idealists, or "dreamers of dreams." Certainly he (the noble Lord) was not one of their "young men who saw visions," nor did he believe that any legislation would, with one sweep, do away with vice, misery, poverty, hunger, dirt, or crime; but legislation should do something, and he believed the Government would make a great attempt to master the difficulties of this question. He thought the change in the Bill of last year giving the power to localities to diminish the number of public-house licences was a distinct improvement. They were proposing to give to localities the same right which every one of their Lordships exercised on their estates—the right to say how many public-houses they should have in the district in which the people lived. He did not know what the opinions of the House might be, but he was certain that out of doors there was a very strong feeling that some drastic method should be adopted in dealing with the drink
  24
  traffic, which was allowed on all sides to be a national danger and a national disgrace. He was aware that the vested interests they would have to consider in this case were of great importance, but, after all, it was not the vested interests of a particular class they had to consider, but the interests of the people at large. When they were told by the Judges and Magistrates of the country, by the police authorities, by those who watched over the lunatic asylums, the gaols, and the workhouses, that drink was the cause of a large proportion of the crime in the country, he thought it became the duty of Her Majestys Government to see whether something could not be done to remove the temptations, at all events to some extent, which led to those evils. He supported this measure because he believed it would be a just measure, he believed it was brought forward in a good cause, and for a noble end. With respect to the other questions mentioned in the Speech, he would refer only to the Bills relating to the question of One man One Vote and to that of Registration. These subjects, however, had been so much discussed inside and outside Parliament that it was unnecessary to say much about them, but it was essential, in his opinion, to satisfy the more democratic age in which they now lived, that plural voting should be abolished, and that, as to Registration, the burden which was now borne by individuals ought to be borne by the rates. With those few observations he begged to second the Address.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, it is a time-honoured custom in this House that we should compliment the Mover and Seconder of the Address on the speeches they have made, and that custom would seem to argue an assumption, on the part of the speaker who utters the praise, that it was founded on the idea that, generally speaking, the Mover and Seconder of the Address are young and bashful members of the House. I do not know whether that is absolutely the case in the present instance. But the noble Lord who has just sat down relieves me of any difficulty on that point, for he has assured us that he is not one of the Prime Ministers young men. I am glad to hear it, but notwithstanding that it may seem some

  25
  what of an assumption in me to compliment a noble Lord, whose words I have listened to with deep submission when we both occupied seats together in the Treasury, still, I can say, with the most perfect confidence, that I have seldom heard a more energetic and vigorous defence of the special subjects of the Gracious Speech which were to the taste of each noble Lord, or speeches so vigorous, so exhaustive, that I should think they would spare, them the necessity of making second speeches when the particular measures are brought before the House. My Lords, the Speech itself, to which I think comparatively little attention was paid by the Mover and Seconder, deals with many interesting subjects, but it cannot be said to be extravagantly lengthy. I can only express my satisfaction that the lengthy and troublesome negotiations with respect to Sierra Leone have been brought to a conclusion. Whether it be a satisfactory conclusion it is impossible for me to judge until we have seen the Treaty, but I think there can be very little doubt that Her Majestys Government have exercised a wise discretion in doing their utmost to come to an arrangement; because, as long as an arrangement was not in existence, it was almost impossible to prevent the collisions which we have so much lamented in these parts. With respect to the atrocities that have been committed in Armenia, I should be sorry to make any definite assertion now, and for this simple reason—that the paragraph in the Speech informs us that the subject-matter to which it alludes is sub judice at the present moment, and it would be clearly improper—nay, almost indecent—to express any opinion on the matters on which the Commissioner is to examine and report. I am a little puzzled, however, at the language of the paragraph. Why the inhabitants of Armenia are called "Armenians in a district of Asia Minor" I am unable to imagine. My impression is, that they are not in Asia Minor at all, according to any definition that existed of Asia Minor in former times; and certainly I should have thought it would have been simpler to call these people inhabitants of Armenia. I should also observe, that I doubt very much whether the inquiry will be sufficiently exhaustive if it only deals with the supposed offences of the
  26
  officers and soldiers of the Sultan. If statements which we have seen are correct, there have been outrages committed by many persons who are not officers or soldiers of the Sultan, and it is, at all events, asserted—I do not for a moment say it is true—that these outrages are not confined to one or the other of the two religious communities among whom they have, happened. Whether that is true or not I do not know. I have nothing to say in challenge of the action which Her Majestys Government have taken, but with respect to the future I will, in as cautious words as I can use, venture humbly to submit one recommendation to them. It is to remember that they are dealing with the most thorny of all problems, with the most irritable of all subjects—a community divided to its base by difference of race and of religion; and if they give to either side of that community an impression that their particular claims are to receive support from outside, they must remember that they will incur an immense responsibility if they hold out any hopes which they have not made up their minds to fulfil. There are many policies which may be pursued in respect to these unhappy cases, but the worst policy of all is to give any section of those Eastern populations the impression that a great support is to be given to their particular prejudices and aspirations and then to leave, them when the crisis comes with a few consolatory phrases to meet as best they can the excited irritation of their opponents. My Lords, I have necessarily used very vague language, because I am impressed in all these matters with the considerable danger that may arise, when we are dealing with the principal Powers of the world, from language that is used either in this or the other House of Parliament. The electric telegraphs and the railways have largely diminished our freedom of debate. Our grandfathers were able to discuss with absolute freedom and unfettered language the action of their Governments and the action of Foreign Powers, and they had little, cause to fear that any language they might use, however much it might be misunderstood, would injure the public interest or produce results that might be deplored, because then many days, or even weeks,

  27
  must have elapsed before the report of it could reach those whom it might have been supposed to interest. If we have abstained, as I think we have carefully abstained, from commenting on matters connected with the Foreign Office in which we may take a deep interest—I do not mean commenting in an adverse sense, but merely commenting—I claim that we are justified in doing so by the peculiar position in which we stand, and by the danger which such discussions might carry with them. At the same time, I beg to disavow any supposition that therefore we necessarily assent—the supposition has been made before and it may be made again—to the matters which we have abstained from criticising. We might criticise them if we had a committee on foreign relations as they have in the United States—we might have criticised them if we lived in another age when communication was less rapid, but unless there is an imperious demand of public policy we hold that in dealing with the Great Powers of the world it is a better policy to abstain from that criticism, even when we do not entirely agree, believing, as we do, that Her Majestys Government have, as much as we ourselves have, an earnest desire to advance the power and the interests of this country. I do not think it is an expedient thing; though we might have been encouraged to it by a recent example, that Members even of the Opposition should use language in a deliberative assembly expressing jealousy and hatred of the subjects of an allied Power. Let others do these things if they will; we will not follow such an example. The Speech goes on to observe that all offences against; the law in Ireland have sunk to the lowest level upon record, and this is intimated as due to the administration of Mr. Morley. I could understand this if it had been agricultural offences, though I should then have differed from the inference; but that all offences of all kinds should yield under the sunshine of his presence seems to me to be claiming more for his proximity than any reasonable probability justifies. I would only say that such a contention is capable of two interpretations. I saw recently that a distinguished Irish leader in addressing the Ulster farmers warned them that they, the people in the south of Ireland, unless
  28
  they were ousted from the north of Ireland, did not intend to go on committing outrages for the purpose of lowering their rents. No doubt that gentleman spoke with a full acquaintance with the machinery that had been at work during the last 15 years. If that machinery is quiescent now, and if no offences are thrust on the attention of the Irish Secretary, it is just possible that it is because those who direct such operations are his well-wishers, and have a notion that as long as he retains office they have a chance of getting as much as they can desire without the use of the dangerous methods which they resort to under other Governments. It is part of that general appeal for the help of the criminal classes in Ireland which has been made more than once by this Government during our experience of it. With regard to other matters in the Speech, I will not go into them in any detail. I have seen them before, and, if I live, I shall probably see them again. I would only regret the peculiar view of Her Majestys Government in relation to the relief of Agriculture. There is one thing that might be done to some extent for Agriculture, and that is, to relieve the burden of the rates, which presses so heavily upon it. So Her Majestys Government, being confronted with a state of Agriculture more appalling than we have ever seen before, propose to place upon it a new burden in order to pay the expenses of Members of Parliament, and also to place upon, it the burden of certain Light Railways, which are supposed to be a panacea for all its ills. Now, agriculturists cannot find money for the most necessary operations of Agriculture. They cannot find money to clean the land or to manure the land; and to tell them that if they are in distress their way is to levy a rate to make a Light Railway, seems to me nothing better than illusory. It reminds me almost of the princess who, when she heard the people wanted bread, wondered why they did not eat buns. This is a very interesting Speech, but it is more interesting by what it omits than by what it inserts. I am very much struck by the conciseness of the appeal to the House of Commons—
  "Gentlemen of the House of Commons,—The

  29
  Estimates for the year will be laid before you without delay."
  Almost every Speech I can remember promised the House of Commons that both efficiency and economy—as to which the noble Lord opposite addressed a timely appeal—should be observed in the Estimates that were forthcoming. But there is not a word of that in this Speech. I can only construe that curious omission by supposing that the party for economy and the party for efficiency were equally balanced in the Cabinet; and that, after lengthened conflict, they determined to say nothing about it. Of course, if there is to be anything done for the Navy, if there is to be a large loan raised, it is a very odd thing that no hint of the necessity of such a strengthening of the Navy was laid before the House of Commons in this Speech. In fact, I regard that blank as an eloquent proof of the vigour and the success of the noble Lord whom I am glad to see opposite, the First Lord of the Admiralty. There is a very much more, remarkable omission in the Speech. We have led an agitated autumn. We have heard that a revolution of the most portentous kind was intended. It was not from our side that such a description of the revolution intended came. Ministers generally represent the measures which they are bringing in, especially if they are of a destructive kind, as something much milder than the Opposition suppose; but the noble Lord the Prime Minister took great pains that we should not underrate the magnitude of the revolution he was introducing. He told us it was the supreme question of the time. He told us it was "terrible," and that if he could imagine any greater word than "terrible" he would use it in respect of that issue. He told us that nothing greater had been before the country since they had rebelled against Charles I. and James II. Where is it? I understand from rumours that go about that it is a kind of birch-rod which the noble Earl hangs against the wall, and which he will take down when he sees a favourable opportunity of employing it. But surely that is a novel, and not a very admirable, way of dealing with revolutions in this country. I think if you have got a revolution on your programme it ought to come first
  30
  in the list. People have initiated wars who have said they did it with a light heart, but I never knew a person initiate a revolution who thought so little of it that he did not think it worth while to mention it to Parliament. Well, the strange lightness of estimate which this mode of proceeding betrays extends through the general policy observed by the Government in this juncture. I will use the Saxon rather than the Latin word—there is a doubleness in all they do which implies either that there are two Leaders or that the single Leader, if there is one, is a man of singularly changeable mind. We have all of us studied the accounts which in successive speeches the noble Lord has given us of his Resolution, and nobody has been able to make out the precise nature of the action which he contemplated. At first he denounced in very vigorous terms the composition of this House, and dwelt with piteous lamentations on the fact that he had only 30 peers—or 29 I believe it is now—behind him. Of course, after that observation I suppose he thought it inconsistent with his principles to add any more to the Liberal Peers of the House, and that we have seen the last of that interesting creation. The noble Lord who spoke first to-night has many claims upon our respect and admiration, but he has a special claim upon our interest, that he is like the dodo—the last of the creation to which he belongs, and the political geologist of the future will reconstruct his remains with infinite interest. But the Prime Minister began with lamenting the possession of only 30 Peers, and made all kinds of references to the noble Lords on this side which I characterised at the time and which I will not repeat. But we concluded, of course, that he meant to reform the House. Oh no! that was the, last, of his intentions. When he was a private Member he made some propositions for the reform of the House; and, as they were not received with enthusiasm, he held that any proposition to reform the House on the part of the Government was a matter from which he was entirely precluded. I will observe that when it is said, as I see it is sometimes, that the House of Lords dislikes, like a certain Scriptural character, to be reformed, the House of Lords is very hardly treated by that

  31
  observation. A reform of the House of Lords has never once been proposed in a Bill by a Liberal Government. It was once proposed by a Conservative Government, and whether the proposal was good or bad, the House of Lords accepted it. During the last 50 years Liberal Governments have been in power for 33 years, and they have never once proposed a reform of the House of Lords; so I hardly think it lies in their mouths to reproach the House of Lords because no reform has been adopted. But the remarkable feature of all this campaign has been the doubleness of the advocacy that has been employed. All the argument has turned upon the composition of the House. All the intentions of the Government, so far as we can divine them, imply that the Government wish, if they have the power, to diminish the authority of this House in respect to the House of Commons. Now these two propositions stand upon a very different footing. As I have said, reforms have always been very freely discussed in this House, and I do not think the divisions of opinion upon them have borne a party character. There are a great many gentlemen on this side who have views of one sort or another upon the subject; but, of course, this is a matter that can only be accepted from the Government of the day. But, though I may keep an open mind, as I have in the past, on the subject of modifying the constitution of this House, when we go to the question of limiting its powers my impression is, that a very different state of feeling will be found to exist in the House. I have met many Peers who were in favour of modifying the constitution of this House; I have never met one—I mean, of course, on the Conservative side—[a Ministerial laugh] who would support the limitation of its powers in respect to the House of Commons. Yes, the noble Lord laughs at that, but he tells us he will not reform the House of Lords; he will not destroy the Veto of the House of Lords because he cannot overbear the Conservative majority. Well, I tell him that the alternative to which it appears he intends to have resort—that of diminishing the powers of the House of Lords in respect to the House of Commons—will meet with a far more determined resistance from that which he well knows is a majority in the House; and that it is,
  32
  from the point of view of practicability, a far more hopeless scheme than any other that has been mentioned. I can understand the people who wish to reform the House—I can understand—though I am very, very deeply against them—the people who wish to sweep away the House; but the proposal to keep the House as a sham and to destroy it as a reality, to erect a protection which is no protection, but will mislead and destroy all who trust to it—that is a proposal which would at once be ridiculous and contemptible for your Lordships to accept, and would be the most pernicious course which it was possible for any Government to pursue. But, my Lords, that is not the only strange inconsistency and uncertainty and, if I may say so, the levity of the mode in which the Government have treated the present crisis of affairs. They say they cannot get the measures they desire passed. Well, they know perfectly well why that is. They know the House of Lords represents an overwhelming majority of England in its objections to these measures, and it is only by a very scanty majority, swept us from various other places—especially from the south and west of Ireland—that the noble Lord is able to carry his measures through the House of Commons. I do not think that a greater amount of agreement between the two Houses is probable so long as that state of things exists. The noble Lord admits that we must appeal to the people; yet, instead of appealing to the people on a clear issue, distinctly drawn, instead of appealing when the Home Rule Bill was thrown out, when the nature of the appeal would have been unmistakable and clear, he is now merely engaged in multiplying the matters which will be brought before the people for their consent, and so confusing the decision which will be given. How can a man give you a clear answer if he has only one answer to give and you ask him ten questions at the same moment? Yet, that is the problem which, by the course they are now pursuing, the Government propose to submit to the constituencies of this country. My Lords, the truth is, that the Government have ceased to look upon legislative measures as things intended to modify the existing legal state of things in this country. They are not

  33
  intended to pass. They are intended merely as missiles to be directed against the House of Lords; and the result of such a policy must be to injure the chance of their being properly considered in the other House or in this. In the other House everything will be dealt with, with the knowledge that it is not likely to be passed into law. In this House, naturally, the fact that the measures are directed against this House, and are not merely confined to the matters with which they affect to deal, will injure the measures in the consideration of your Lordships. A snowball is a very beautiful thing if you examine it merely with reference to its constitution; but if it is directed against you by an unduly aggressive companion you forget the character of its constitution and you think only of it as a missile. I am afraid that this succession of snowballs, which Her Majestys Government are directing against the House of Lords, will injure the true and just consideration of the measures which they intend to submit to us. My Lords, I regret deeply, in the public interest, that Her Majestys Government have not thought fit to follow the precedent of Lord Palmerston. He, like they, had a very decided state of opinion to deal with and a very small majority in the House of Commons. But he did not take the opportunity of introducing a crowd of revolutionary measures. He devoted himself rather to that class of measures which did not appeal to the antagonism of class or creed, and was, therefore, able to fulfil, with credit and with great utility to his country, the term of the Office that he held. Her Majestys Government have taken exactly the opposite course, and because their majority is trivial, because it is uncertain, because it appears to be going away every day, therefore they have addressed themselves to all the questions that divide our community the most and that can excite the greatest antipathy between classes. I regret that in the interest of the public welfare: I do not regret it as a Party man. I can remember that Lord Melbourne clung to Office with a trivial majority, and declined to appeal to the people when an appeal to the people had obviously become necessary, and the result was that Sir Robert Peel came back
  34
  with a majority of 90. I can remember Mr. Gladstone unwisely refusing to dissolve immediately after the loss of the University Bill. He clung on for a year; the people became more and more against him, and Mr. Disraeli came in with a considerable majority. And if I could wish for any object-lesson to the people of the danger that a system of Single Chambers would bring upon them, I could wish for nothing better than that course which the noble Lord is trying to prescribe to the House of Commons. A House of Commons divided into sections, maintaining a majority by mere log-rolling, in which a variety of interests has perpetually to be consulted in order to maintain the scanty preponderance—a House of Commons which, while it professes to appeal to the people, in reality defies the people and insists upon continuing its course, though the moment has come when the decision of the people upon the controversies that exist ought obviously to be taken, though the relations of the two Houses in consequence of the state of things has reached a condition which is unfavourable to sound legislation, the spectacle of such a use of his majority as the noble Lord is making is the best warning of any that I could desire of the dangers that would happen to public liberties and the public safety if, in name or in effect, a single Chamber had uncontrolled power in this country. My Lords, I regret for other reasons that the time of Parliament is spent on these matters. I regret that these violently antagonistic Measures which can come to nothing should be all that the energy of Parliament can do. It seems as though we thought there were no dangers and troubles outside that required our attention, as though we were blind and deaf to the misery through which large portions of our countrymen are passing. What is the cause of this great depression? We cannot tell. Is it the difficulties of the currency? Is it the difficulties of fiscal legislation? Does it come from want of confidence? Has the peculiar legislation which is being perpetually threatened by the supporters of the Government anything to do with the unwillingness of capital to venture forth and risk itself? All these are doubtful and difficult questions; they require our deepest attention; all the intellect and wisdom Parliament could give

  35
  ought to be directed to attempting to mitigate the sufferings under which our fellow-countrymen are labouring, and I cannot believe you will increase their love for Parliamentary Institutions if they see that now, as for so many years in the past, you are simply engaged in the sterile contest between class and class and creed and creed and one House against the other, and you are forgetting those vital interests of the poorest and the most undefended, which it is your first and noblest office in this building to fulfil.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: My Lords, I am sure that with the general tone of the noble Marquesss remarks, when we make deductions for that agreeable flow of irony and sarcasm to which we are accustomed, we have, on the whole, no particular reason to complain. Not even the somewhat sub-acid compliments that he addressed to my noble Friend the Mover and my noble Friend the Seconder were entirely free from that taint. He compared my noble Friend to the dodo, and expressed the hope that at no remote period he might have the opportunity of examining his remains. I am not so sanguine. I listened with delight to his speech, and I am glad to find that, though in the Civil Service he says his tongue was tied, we may hope that he will find ample and fruitful use for it in the Debates of this House. And as for my noble Friend the Seconder, who has had what is called a much larger sphere of usefulness for his eloquence, I am quite sure that we see in him one who on one or two of the great questions mentioned in the Queens Speech will be prepared to take an eloquent and an efficient part. My Lords, I cannot help remembering that the Seconder of the Queens Speech last year, Lord Swansea, was looking forward with an almost enthusiastical keenness to the opportunity of discussing the disestablishment of the Welsh Church in this House. I deeply deplore his loss, but I feel that in Lord Battersea we have one who will approach that subject with almost equal knowledge and with equal zeal whenever that Bill shall come before your Lordships. My Lords, with the tenour of the noble Marquesss remarks about foreign politics, I need not say that I am in cordial accord. I think he will do me the justice to say that when I was in
  36
  Opposition I practised a not less reticence and caution than himself, and if he feels caution and reticence in dealing with the question of Armenia, how much more must that responsibility lay on me who speak in the name of the Government of this country? What I will say is this—that we have been able to act in this matter with the cordial acquiescence of the Great Powers most immediately interested; that Russia, France, and Italy—those powers, as they may be described, most interested in this question—have acted, in my opinion, with a single-minded anxiety that the full force of European public opinion should be brought to bear to elicit the truth of these melancholy rumours; and though the Porte has declined the concurrence of Italy as not possessing a Consul at Erzeroum, I am of opinion that the three Powers which are so represented will be able to watch the Commission of Inquiry with such vigilance and such power, that that Commission must, in effect, ascertain the truth. What we have all felt in hearing of these rumours is this—that if they are true our warmest sympathy must go out to our fellow Christians in Asia Minor under the unspeakable sufferings to which they are alleged to have been exposed. In the second place, if those rumours were true—and I wish I could say any official information at my disposal enabled me to give them an authoritative contradiction—it is not possible that the condition of those Christians shall remain in its present state, for otherwise they would be subject to reprisals which would make their last state worse than their first. My Lords, when I pass from foreign politics I find myself in less harmony with the noble Marquess. He was good enough to touch on Ireland—what, in a subsequent part of his speech, he called one of the various other places who contributed to the formation of the majority of Her Majestys Government. Whether that is Unionist language in speaking of the United Kingdom I do not know. Whether it is to be the message of peace that the noble Marquess is prepared to bring to Scotland, Wales, and Ireland if he should again be entrusted with power I do not know; but, at any rate, it struck me as hardly a happy term to use. But what was still more extraordinary was this, that in specifying

  37
  what he described as the too meagre language of the Queens Speech he was pleased to import into the Speech language which did not exist there, and on which he founded an edifying homily. He says that Her Majesty is made to declare in the gracious Speech that the reduction of crime in Ireland is due to the benevolent administration and proximity of Mr. Morley. He must either have invented those words or have been supplied with a garbled copy of the Speech, for I can find none of them in the authorised edition. The noble Marquess was good enough to say that he did not believe it was due to the administration of Mr. Morley, but rather to the sympathy of those criminal classes to which Her Majestys Government had so often appealed for support. He did not instance the occasions on which we had so appealed for support. It would, I confess, have been more satisfactory to us; but, if he likes, I will give him the reasons which do make me think that cause and effect are to some extent to be found in the reduction of all crime in Ireland and the existence of Her Majestys present Administration. In the first place, by the admission even of our political foes, the administration of Mr. John Morley has been wise and kindly and firm, and if we had thought it meet, as the noble Marquess seems to have thought it meet, to introduce in the Speech a statement to that effect, we should not have hesitated, so far as the interests of accuracy are concerned, to do so. In the next place, I believe that the reduction of crime is due to another cause, which is the knowledge that the policy of an Irish Legislature for distinctively Irish concerns, satisfying the just aspirations of the Irish people and consistent with Imperial unity, remains in the forefront of the Liberal programme; and I do believe that what elements of disturbance there may be in Ireland are not encouraged to rise against a Government which holds out, when the time should be propitious, so great a promise to that people. The noble Marquess then turned to the subject of Agriculture, and he was extremely facetious on that subject. I regret I cannot altogether imitate his playful wit on a subject which is so distressing, because I honestly consider that there is scarcely a subject before your Lordships, or before
  38
  the country at this moment, so imminent, so pressing, and so grave, as the state of Agriculture in this country. If I thought that it depended on certain easily removable causes, or certain promptly removable causes; if I thought it represented a state of things singular and unique confined to this island alone; I should be inclined to agree with the noble Marquess, and put it in the very forefront of the subjects with which legislation should deal. But it is not confined to this island. It is so little confined to this island that it is universal, and in place of asking noble Lords opposite to state a country where Agriculture is better than it is in Great Britain, I would rather ask them to state a single spot in the whole civilized world where Agriculture is in a flourishing state at this moment. I would go even further and ask them to name a country where, melancholy as the depression in Agriculture is in this country, Agriculture flourishes more than it does here. But when you have stated the evil you have not necessarily found a remedy. My noble Friend who moved the Address pointed out that artificial means for raising the price of agricultural commodities was out of the question. The noble Marquess, indeed, urged that there should be further subvention towards the local rates. Well, it is true that in some cases subventions towards the local rates have tended to lower the rates, but in most cases I believe they have not had that effect; they have tended to larger local expenditure—in many cases where those subventions have been given the last state of the locality has been worse than the first. The noble Marquess makes light of Light Railways. Well, I do not say Light Railways are an unfailing specific, but I will say this that, after a very careful conference which was held under the auspices of my right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade, it was felt that Light Railways did offer a prospect of relief for Agriculture, not, merely in England, but in Scotland, and that on that ground alone we might make an immediate step in that direction, which, even if it were not largely operative, could not fail, to some extent, to be beneficial. But I must go a little further than that. We appointed a Royal Commission the year

  39
  before last to inquire into the state of Agriculture. It was not appointed before it was time, but I may mention it was appointed in our first year of existence, and I do not think that in the six years in which the noble Marquess presided over the councils of the country any such measure was deemed to be necessary. Was Agriculture so flourishing then? [The MARQUESS of SALISBURY: Better.] Better; I do not deny it was better, but I think the noble Marquess will hardly say it was nourishing. But that is beside the point. The Commission is sitting, and it is extremely difficult while it is sitting, when we had some hopes of a prompt Report from that Commission, to come down before the Report and override it and present our own remedies to Parliament. I say we had hopes of a prompt Report. Those hopes have been overclouded through the action of one of the noble Marquesss late colleagues. The Report which was about to be presented has been considerably postponed. I do not know his motives, I am sure they were high-minded; but as the motives of Party politicians on both sides of the House are always open to question and to suspicion. I could wish that in the exercise of his high discretion he had thought it well to hasten and not to retard the Report of that Commission. I will say this further, that when that Report is presented, neither I nor the Government will restrict ourselves to the Light Railways that are mentioned in the Queens Speech for the relief of Agriculture. We will not be fettered by the measure so announced, but reserve full freedom of action to adopt and to recommend to Parliament any such recommendations of that Report as we shall deem to be expedient. I now come to the last topic which was dealt with by the noble Marquess, and it was by far the most interesting. The noble Marquess rated us severely for the omission of one prominent topic from the Queens Speech; I mean that which might have laid down the policy of Her Majestys Government with regard to your Lordships House. My Lords, I am, I confess, at a loss to know on what precedent the noble Marquess based himself in anticipating a paragraph in the Queens Speech would announce a resolution at some time or another to be
  40
  introduced into the House of Commons with reference to the relations of that House to this. Therefore, I am unable to argue the point; but I am inclined to think that, heavily as he laid the scourge on my shoulders this evening, it would have been nothing to the severity with which he would have dealt with me if I had recommended the Queen to take so unusual and unprecedented a step as to mention in the gracious Speech from the Throne a resolution relating to the relative position between estates of the Realm to be introduced in the House of Commons. The noble Marquis has said that in the speeches which I have been compelled to deliver in the country—I frankly confess that the delivery of speeches either here or in the country is never an act of spontaneous willingness on my part—that in the speeches I have been compelled to deliver in the country there has been constant variety and vacillation. I should have been grateful if he had given me some instances of that variety and vacillation, because I should have been able in that case to deal with them. What I have said from the first speech I have delivered on this question to the last is this, that the relation of this House to the other House, and the position of this House as regards one of the great parties of the State, constitutes a grave danger to the future of this country. I have further said this, that, in our opinion, the constitutional method of dealing with that situation is by a resolution in the House of Commons, and I also said this, that, in my opinion, it was not necessary or even expedient that that resolution should be introduced at once, for the obvious reason, amongst others, that a resolution must almost necessarily be followed by a dissolution, and that we saw no necessity for an immediate dissolution of Parliament. I then fail to see what the inconsistency is. I am quite aware that many minute political examiners—and I think the noble Duke below the gangway is the best of them—have thought it their duty to scan and scrutinize these speeches, not for the purpose of finding out what was in them, but what was not in them—that is the text and substance of the Resolution which Her Majestys Government will propose to submit to the House of Commons. You may scan and

  41
  scrutinise one more speech, that is the speech which I am delivering now, without, I hope, obtaining any clue to that Resolution; because it would be, in my opinion, an act of disrespect in the first and highest degree to the House in which it is to be introduced—and I hope that even the noble Marquess will admit that the House of Commons is entitled to some contemptuous consideration—it would be an act of disrespect to that House if we were to forestall the introduction of the Resolution in that House by previously describing it in this. The noble Marquess has described my attitude in this House as one of disappointment because, first, the number of my followers in this House is so small, and because consequently my attempts at reforming this House were not received with enthusiasm. I will deal with each separately. As regards my disappointment that the number of my followers is not greater, it is genuine and it is deep-seated. I admit that with regard to the House of Commons as much as with regard to the House of Lords. But what cannot be said in regard to the House of Commons can be said in regard to the House of Lords—that that minority is permanent and stereotyped in the House of Lords, while in the House of Commons it is subject to modification. As to my attempts to reform this House, they were of a modest and unambitious character. They were not, I admit, received with enthusiasm; but, I hope your Lordships will pardon me when I say that I have never known of any proposition that was received in this House with enthusiasm. The noble Marquess says that I ought not to be daunted in those endeavours, but as head of the Government now it is my duty to persevere with them. My Lords, I really cannot detain the House by pointing out why, with nine-and-twenty followers, I could not induce the House to accept these drastic proposals of reform—and I confess they will be drastic—which only I could induce the Government to recommend. But there have been other attempts by other persons in a position to make such attempts to reform the House of Lords. I remember that in the Debate on the Home Rule Bill here I said, and I said it from the bottom of my heart, and shall reiterate it to the
  42
  end of my life, that there was no greater reproach on the acknowledged statesmanship of the noble Marquess than his failure to deal with the question of the reform of the House, as he might have done with ease and impunity, in the six years between the passing of the Reform Bill of 1884 to the advent of the Liberals to power in 1892. But on one occasion, as he has boasted this evening, he did make the attempt. I observed that he passed very lightly over it. He said it was accepted by this House; but that is not my recollection.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: The Second Reading was passed.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I do not think the Second Reading was passed. But let me narrate the circumstances of the deathbed of that measure. The noble Marquess taunted us genially about the duality of our leaders. There is a leader, he said, in the House of Commons—a very powerful man; there is a leader in the House of Lords, whom the noble Marquess hinted was a very impotent or a very irresolute man; that he had to give way to his taskmasters elsewhere, and hence his melancholy vacillations at which the noble Marquess hinted, but which he did not support by quotation. But I remember another duality of leaders on this very question of reforming the House of Lords. We had an animated and discursive debate on the proposals of the noble Marquess, which, if I remember aright, consisted of the introduction of six military and six naval veterans as life Peers—the salt and leaven which lend savour and consistency to this House, and would have done away, I have no doubt, with all the objections that have been urged against its constitution. The noble Marquess was rising to reply to the animadversions made in a feeble spirit from the Opposition Benches, when at that moment a paper was placed in his hands, which he hurriedly read out, announcing that his brother leader in the House of Commons had withdrawn the Bill in that House, and that, therefore, it was unnecessary to trouble their Lordships with any further observations.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: No, no.
  THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: Oh yes. If you refer to "The Parliamentary Debates" you will find that I am correct.

  43
  That was the beginning and end of the last effort of the noble Marquess to attempt a great constitutional reform of the House of Lords. I think it throws some light on the question of duality of leadership. Now, my Lords, the noble Marquess ended with an impassioned appeal to this House. He said, in language which I think ought to have some justification before being used, that we were not introducing an honest Bill into this House, but merely flying kites—or snowballs I think he called them—with which we pelted the House of Lords without the slightest idea or a hope that we could pass the Bills. What are the Bills to which the noble Marquess alluded? The only Bill he dealt with was the Bill about Light Railways. He has not dealt with the substantial measures indicated in the Queens Speech. He is not prepared to consider the Bill for the disestablishment of the Church in Wales, because he says it is not seriously intended. It is simply a missile sent by the House of Commons to harass the repose of the House of Lords. He is not prepared to consider the Measure for Amending the Irish Land Act of 1882. That, I suppose, is not a serious Measure either. It does not respond in any degree to the desires of the agricultural population of Ireland, not merely in the three provinces from which he says our supporters are mainly drawn, but also in the province of Ulster, to which he looks for Irish light and guidance. Is the Bill dealing with the liquor traffic a Bill the noble Marquess is not prepared to consider on its merits, because it is simply a missile intended to annoy this House? Is the Bill for the abolition of plural voting, which would take away from some constituencies 3,000, and from one at least 4,000 outside voters, a mere playful act of burlesque on the part of the Government, and not seriously meant? Is the provision for the payment of the expenses of returning officers at elections—the removal of one of the great bars to that democratic representation of the working classes which, I believe, the noble Marquess claims to desire as much as I do—is that Bill a playful effort of fancy on the part of the Government? We know what the noble Marquess thinks of the Bill for the unification of London, because he told us about the Report of the Commission, when he gave some thickness
  44
  and consistency to that "thin partition" which was demolished a week ago by some Members of the Party below the Gangway, and which since has been so laboriously resuscitated by the noble Duke. The noble Marquess addressed words of reprobation to the Chairman of the Commission; and he treated the whole of the Report as a practical joke; but it is a practical joke to which the Government are prepared to give effect. I will not refer further to the measures in the Queens Speech, but I ask the House—divesting our minds of Party feelings, which, after all, are not unnatural, and which I do not deprecate—whether the noble Marquess is justified in treating these Bills as mere acts of a drama, not meant for serious consideration, but merely introduced for debate in the House of Commons to be flung back by your Lordships in the month of August. I can only say that that is not our idea in presenting them. Our idea is to give an honest and honourable fulfilment to the pledges which we gave in Opposition. I quite acknowledge that the programme that was drawn up by us in Opposition was by no means a brief one. It was adopted at a Congress at which I had not the honour to be present, because I was not then taking part in public life. But it was adopted with the assent of the Liberal Party then in Opposition, and I cannot think it is a discredit to that Party that when it returns to power it should endeavour to fulfil those pledges. I am quite conscious that our majority in the House of Commons is small. I am quite conscious that it is made up of various sections, whose interests the noble Marquess thinks it is extraordinary that we should deem it necessary to consult. But as long as that majority exists it is a majority. It is something to which the noble Marquess, with all his power in this House, can lay no claim, and so long as we possess that majority we intend to use it for the redemption of the pledges which we gave in Opposition.
  THE DUKE OF DEVONSHIRE: My Lords, in the few observations with with I shall venture to trouble your Lordships it will not, fortunately, be necessary for me, because of my position in the House, to follow the course necessarily taken by the previous speakers, in

  45
  dealing at some length with the whole or portions of the subjects referred to in the Queens Speech. I propose to refer briefly to one matter only. My noble Friend who has just sat down has protested with some warmth that the proposals enumerated in the Queens Speech have been brought forward in a serious spirit. Well, some of the declarations which my noble Friend has been compelled to make in the country has left the views of the Government as to the probable work of the Session in a position of considerable obscurity, which, I venture to say, his present observations have not altogether dispelled. We have heard from my noble Friend that on one occasion he felt he was trifling with his hearers in speaking to them about measures which he knew, and they knew could by no possibility pass into law in the face of the obstacle presented to them by this House. The Home Secretary also has been speaking about ploughing the sands of the seashore, and I do not think it would be difficult to find abundant references of a similar character in speeches by other Ministers. On the other hand, we have been told that this Session is to be a business Session, and that the measures contained in the Queens Speech are strictly limited to those which, in the opinion of the Government, can be and ought to be passed into law within a single Session. Well, I admit that I find a very considerable difficulty in reconciling these declarations, and in ascertaining, from the distinctions which have been made by my noble Friend, with what views the great proportion of those measures have been introduced into the Speech. I quite admit that there are some of them which the Government are fully entitled to consider necessary and practical subjects of legislation. There is the measure, to which calm and temperate reference was made by the noble Lord, dealing with the subject of Irish land. That is a subject upon which it is quite possible that Parliament may be called upon to legislate successfully. It is admitted by all, I believe, that as the time approaches for the expiration of the first period for which judicial rents have been fixed, some revision of the existing law will be found necessary; and I have not the smallest doubt that in this House, as well as in the House of Commons, every disposition will be felt to approach the
  46
  consideration of this question, and of any new principle which it may be found necessary to adopt for the settlement of the relations between the landlord and tenant. I am sure that any proposals of Her Majestys Government on that subject will be met in a perfectly fair and temperate spirit. But when we come to such other measures, as that for the Disestablishment of the Church in Wales, the Local Veto Bill, the establishment of the principle of "One Man One Vote," I inquire whether these Bills are introduced with any intention or object of being passed into law. The position of matters has altered very considerably since the Session of 1893; and with it has altered the light in which we are entitled to regard any Ministerial declarations such as are contained in the Queens Speech. The noble Lord has told us that the legislative programme entrusted to the present Government by the election of 1892 was the largest that has ever been entrusted to any Government; and that under any circumstances it would have occupied many Sessions, and probably more than one Parliament; but that, if it had been possible for Her Majestys Ministers to pass these measures in the order in which they were submitted to Parliament, there was no reason in the nature of things why they should not, if not in one Parliament, still in a succession of Parliaments, complete that programme. But the Government have discovered that the very first measure—the measure upon which they appealed in the first instance to the country—they are unable to pass. They have not been able to pass the Home Rule Bill. Well, my Lords, if the House of Lords, holding the opinion which he did, that the Government had received no such mandate from the country as would justify them in accepting that Bill, passed by a very small majority through the House of Commons—if the House of Lords thought that they were justified in rejecting that Bill, and if the Government afterwards calmly acquiesced in that rejection, what reason can they have for supposing that the House of Lords is likely to take a different view of the large number of equally controversial matters, of which the Government themselves protest that they have even a less mandate and less popular opinion behind them? I think we are justified

  47
  in saying that these Bills are not introduced for the purpose of being passed. They are introduced because, for some reason or other, good or bad, it is thought desirable that they should be brought into the House of Commons, discussed in the House of Commons, and perhaps forced through the House of Commons, and brought up to this House. But that they are intended to pass into law is a contention which is not seriously made even by Her Majestys Government themselves. I do not deny that there may be advantages in obtaining a full Parliamentary discussion of measures which there is no probability of passing in the same Session. Arguments may be met, difficulties may be smoothed away, objections may be removed. That is a process which has been over and over again resorted to; and by full discussion it has come about that measures, which, at their introduction, have been violently opposed, have ultimately received the Assent of Parliament. But has the experience of the Government with reference to the measures introduced during the present Parliament been of that description? Is it possible to contend that any argument, which was conclusive in the minds of those opposed to Home Rule, has been met in the course of the Debates on the Home Rule measure? Is it the fact that a single difficulty or obstacle in the way of Home Rule has been smoothed away or removed? I think the most conclusive proof that that is not the opinion of the Government themselves or of their supporters is given by the action of the Irish Members. I will do the Irish Nationalist Members the justice to believe that they desire ardently to see the establishment of a Legislature in Dublin some day. I believe they consider that to be the main object of their political existence. Well, if they thought that the Debates of the Home Rule Bill in this country and in these Houses had been such as to exercise any favourable effect upon the mind of the people of England, and to induce them to give a verdict in favour of Home Rule, should they hereafter be separately consulted on that subject, is it conceivable for one moment that these Irish Members, by whose support the present Government exists, would acquiesce in the shelving of Home Rule by that Government,
  48
  not only for a single Session, but as we see now, for a second Session, and perhaps even for a second Parliament? It seems to me evident that, in the opinion of the Government, and in the opinion of their supporters, the Irish members, no such useful purpose has been served by the discussions in Parliament of this measure as in the slightest degree to advance its position as a Parliamentary question. Then, I ask whether the Government are going to introduce these equally contentious and unimportant matters with any hope that they will lead to any other result? No, my Lords. The object with which these measures are introduced is, that they may be of certain benefit to the Government. The majority which they know they cannot obtain in favour of any one of them they hope they may be able to obtain by combinations and management. If the Irish Members, if those who are in favour of Welsh Disestablishment, if those who are in favour of the Local Veto Bill, can each be induced to believe that their own measures—those in which they take an interest themselves—can only obtain a majority in support of them by the assistance of all those interested in the others, then that Parliamentary majority in the House of Commons may be obtained which they know cannot be obtained in support of any of those measures individually and separately presented. This policy has already been tried, and tried with a partial success. It is true that Her Majestys Government have not been able to pass any of their measures or to redeem any of their pledges. There is not a single one of those measures which were referred to by my noble Friend, as having been agreed to at the Newcastle Conference, which has been passed into law. But the policy which has been pursued of forcing those measures through the House of Commons has had the effect of securing and retaining for the Government the small, but at the same time adequate, majority which secures to the country the inestimable advantage of their administrative services. So long as Her Majestys advisers are content with this humble, if not brilliant, measure of success, I do not know that the Unionist Party have any great cause to complain. I think, however, that it is probably not a Parliamentary position which can be indefinitely

  49
  continued with any advantage to the country; and I think it probable that the country will, before very long, become tired of an Administration which, apparently, does not possess the courage or conviction which is required to stake its existence upon any of the legislative proposals, by the support and advocacy of which it came into power. But, my Lords, as has been stated by the noble Marquess opposite, I think that it is rather with something which is not contained in the Speech, than with anything which is contained in the Speech, that the mind of the country is at present chiefly occupied. The declarations which have been made in the speech of my noble Friend, the Prime Minister, will chiefly be examined and scrutinised in the country with a view to obtaining some light as to the time and manner in which their policy as regards the relations of the two Houses is to be disclosed. My noble Friend has told us that he has no intention of divulging before the time the Resolution which is to be the first act of this revolution; but his reticence extends even beyond an unwillingness to give us the terms of the Resolution, for we have not heard from him an intimation as to the period of the Session in which this momentous Resolution is to be moved. We know from the public declarations of my noble Friend that, in his opinion, the time has come, or nearly come, for a free popular reference to the people which shall settle the Constitution once for all. We know that, in his opinion, the issue which is thus raised is a tremendous one; we know that it is to be accomplished by a Resolution submitted to the House of Commons. I submit to your Lordships, and to the Government, that scarcely too much time, notice, or information can be given to the country which is to be called upon to decide upon an issue so presented and so described. It is scarcely conceivable that it is the intention of the Government to raise an issue of this description by a Resolution brought forward at the fag-end of a Session in a House of Commons exhausted by a discussion of multifarious and important questions which are to be submitted to its consideration. It is scarcely conceivable that these proposals are going to be submitted to Parliament at a time when your Lordships House is occupied in the
  50
  consideration of some other measures which are to be sent up from the other House, and when it will be impossible for it to be heard in its own defence. It is impossible to conceive that the country is going to be asked to decide upon this tremendous issue with no information before it except such as it is able to obtain from a hurried Debate in a dying Parliament. It is almost impossible to conceive that such a course of procedure should enter into the minds of responsible statesmen; but I think it is less conceivable that such a course of procedure will recommend itself to the sense of justice and of fairplay of the nation. It is not in our power to force the hands of the Government or compel them to make any disclosure of their policy which they may consider premature. It is a curious commentary on the imaginary claim which this House is supposed to make on behalf of its statutory or equal authority with that of the House of Commons, when it is not even in the power of this House to extract from Her Majestys Ministers a declaration of the time or the terms in which the question, so vital to themselves, is to be brought forward. I think we may rest assured that, whenever and however, this measure is brought forward and submitted to the House of Commons or to the country, no apprehension or misgiving need be felt by this House as to an attack which is being conducted apparently with so much hesitation, so much doubt, so much vacillation, as that which is at present threatened on the privileges of this House.
  Address agreed to, nemine dissentiente, and ordered to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

  CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
  The EARL OF MORLEYappointed, nemine dissentiente, to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for this Session.
APPEAL COMMITTEE—Appointed.

  NEW BILL.
  The ARCHBISHOP of CANTERBURYpresented a Bill to amend the law relating

  51
  to the transfer and exercise of Church Patronage.
  Bill, pro forma, read la.
  House adjourned at twenty minutes past Seven o'clock, till Thursday, a quarter past Four oclock.