Sitting of 27 April 1893

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  LONDON IMPROVEMENTS BILL(by order.)

    SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Bill be now read a second time," put, and agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That the Bill be committed to a Select Committee of Nine Members, Five to be nominated by the House, and Four by the Committee of Selection:
    "That all Petitions against the Bill presented not later than six clear days before the meeting of the Committee be referred to the Committee, that such Petitioners as would otherwise have a locus standi, praying to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, or Agents, be heard against the Bill:
    "That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records:
    "That Five be the quorum." —(Sir John Lubbock.)
    MR. KIMBERwished to know if the Instruction he had upon the Paper was in Order, as, if so, he should debate the matter on the Instruction. He did not wish to do so on the Second Reading.
    *MR. SPEAKERpointed out that the Committee to which the right hon.
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    Baronet referred had been at work, had made a final Report, and had been discharged. It was no longer in existence. To what Committee did the right hon. Baronet desire the Bill to be referred?
    *SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: To a Select Committee.
    MR. KIMBERasked to what Select Committee did the right hon. Baronet intend the Bill should go? He (Mr. Kimber) had the following Instruction on the Paper:—
    "That it be an Instruction to the Committee on the Bill to omit Clause 45, and any other clauses creating new charges or rates upon houses, shops, or other property already rated, or otherwise giving powers to raise money thereon."
    It was obvious the result of that Motion would depend upon whether they could say "Aye" or "No" to the Motion about the Select Committee.
    MR. SPEAKER: What kind of a Committee does the right hon. Baronet propose? Is it an ordinary Committee or a Hybrid Committee?
    *SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: I propose it in the terms standing on the Paper, with the exception that, instead of being referred to the Committee on the London County Council (General Powers) Bill, it be a Select Committee.
    MR. SPEAKER: The question is as to the Committee to which it should be referred. I suppose the right hon. Baronet means a Hybrid Committee? If he wishes to defer it until Monday, it will now stand committed to a Committee, and he can, in the meantime, decide as to the Committee.
    *SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: I shall ask leave to refer it to a Hybrid Committee.
    MR. SEXTON: Is it not necessary that Notice should be on the Paper for the appointment of a Hybrid Committee?
    MR. SPEAKERsaid, that depended on the circumstances.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be referred to a Hybrid Committee."—[Sir John Lubbock.)
    MR. SEXTON: On that Question I have to ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether, in accordance with the Orders of the House, the Motion on the Paper being a different Motion to the one now submitted—namely, to refer it to an extinct

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    Committee, you can now nominate a Hybrid Committee without Notice?
    MR. SPEAKER: It was a mistake in the first instance on the part of whoever put it on the Paper. The original proposition was to refer it to the Committee on the London County Council's General Powers Bill; but that Committee having been discharged, and being no longer in existence, the right hon. Baronet now proposes to refer it to a Hybrid Committee.
    *MR. JAMES STUARTsaid, he would explain how the difficulty bad arisen. The Motion was put on the Paper while the Committee to which it was proposed to refer the Bill was still in existence. But in deference to the wishes of hon. Gentlemen opposite, who wished to postpone the Second Reading of the Bill until to-day, the promoters of the Bill deferred taking the Bill until to-day, which had brought about the difficulty.
    MR. KIMBERwould appeal to the right hon. Baronet to let the matter stand over for a day or two, at all events, or certainly until his (Mr. Kimber's) Motion for an Instruction be discussed. ["No, no!"]
    MR. SPEAKER: Of course, if the hon. Gentleman objects, the Bill will stand over till to-morrow.
    MR. KIMBER: I do object.
    *MR. JAMES STUARTappealed to the hon. Gentleman to withdraw his objection. The promoters of this Bill were putting down this Notice to refer the Bill to a Hybrid Committee really to accommodate the wishes of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The promoters had no desire that it should be referred to such a Committee, but they were anxious to meet hon. Gentlemen opposite. Having done that and having brought their friends down in order to deal with this Motion after postponing the Bill for the convenience of hon. Members opposite, it was hardly fair to ask them to again postpone the matter. He hoped, therefore, the hon. Gentleman would withdraw his opposition, and let the Bill be dealt with in the ordinary way.
    MR. KIMBERsaid, the Bill was postponed distinctly for the discussion of the question of betterment. It was pointed out by the Speaker that he (Mr. Kimber) had the right of moving this Instruction
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    raising the question of betterment, and they were there for that purpose. If the Motion to refer the Bill to a particular Committee were postponed, there was nothing to prevent him moving his Instruction which stood on the Paper.
    SIR JOHN LUBBOCKsaid, he himself suggested last week that that day would be most convenient for taking the Bill; but the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken and a right hon. Gentleman on the Front Opposition Bench pointed out that the Bill raised large questions, and that it should, therefore, be taken at as early a period of the Session as possible, so as to give time to the Committee to fully consider the question involved. They, therefore, suggested that the Debate should be taken on Monday. Afterwards they said that Monday had been found to be an inconvenient day for them, and they asked to have the consideration of the measure postponed from Monday to Thursday. To meet the convenience of these hon. Gentlemen the Bill was accordingly deferred until to-day; and now, when they were all there and without any previous intimation, they wished to have it postponed again. These same Gentlemen having told them that they were already quite late enough in the Session with a Bill of this character and that the Committee would hardly have time to consider the questions involved, could scarcely, with consistency, ask for a further postponement.
    *MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. Gentleman objects the Bill will stand over.
    MR. KIMBERintimated that he objected.
    MR. J. LOWTHERdesired to say a word or two, as he had been referred to by the right hon. Baronet. The suggestion he made was with the view to some definite day being fixed for the discussion of the principle of betterment. If they could discuss the question of betterment they had better go on with it. He understood his hon. Friend was quite prepared to discuss the question of betterment that day.
    MR. WHITMOREappealed to his hon. Friend (Mr. Kimber) to withdraw his objection. He thought the clause of the right hon. Baronet was perfectly reasonable. It was their common desire that the Bill should be referred to a Hybrid Committee. The

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    Committee to which it was originally intended to send the Bill had ceased to exist, and now it was proposed the Bill should be referred to a similar Committee, and he could not see what object was served by not taking that course now. On both sides they had agreed to fix the date of the Second Reading for to-day, and with great earnestness he appealed to his hon. Friend not to persist in his opposition to the Motion.
    SIR ALGERNON BORTHWICKwould also add his voice to that of other hon. Gentlemen, and ask his hon. Friend not to persist in this objection. They had all come to a fair agreement that this question should be debated that day, and he hoped, therefore, the objection would be withdrawn.
    *MR. SPEAKER: If the objection is still maintained it must go over.
    MR. KIMBER: I am sorry to be persistent, but there are reasons against it.
    *SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: In these circumstances, I must withdraw my Motion.
    *MR. SPEAKER: The whole question must stand over until the next occasion when the Bill comes on, when the right hon. Baronet can move his Motion.
    MR. KIMBER: As I understand the matter of Order, I can move my Instruction?
    *MR. SPEAKER: There is no Committee before the House. The right hon. Baronet has intimated his intention to withdraw his Motion for the appointment of a Hybrid Committee. We do not now know what Committee the Bill is to be referred to, and the Instruction to the Committee cannot be moved until we know what it is.
    MR. KIMBER: I really did not understand that. I did not intend to postpone my own Instruction.
    Objection being taken, the Debate stood adjourned until To-morrow.

QUESTIONS.

  THE LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL OF JAMAICA.
  MR. DIXON: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies if it has been
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  brought to his notice that considerable friction at present exists between the Governor of Jamaica and certain high officials of that Colony; whether successful appeals from the decision of the Governor have lately been made to the Secretary of State by some of these aggrieved officers; and if the Secretary is aware that on the 28th of February, 1893, the elected members of the Legislative Council passed a unanimous Vote of Censure on the Governor; and, if so, what steps the Colonial Office intend to take to give effect to such a serious expression of the opinion of the Legislature?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. S. BUXTON,): The Governor of Jamaica recently found it his duty to appoint a Commission to inquire into certain matters affecting the conduct of the head of a department of the Colonial Government; but, with that exception, the Secretary of State is not aware that any friction exists between the Governor and any high official of the Colony. The officer whose conduct has been impugned has appealed to the Secretary of State; but no action will be taken on his appeal pending a further inquiry by an export whom the Secretary of State is sending out from England. The elected members of the Legislative Council on February 28th last passed a Resolution expressing regret that the Governor did not submit to Her Majesty's Government that a change recently made in the Constitution of the Council ought not to have been recommended to Her Majesty without first obtaining an expression of opinion from the Council. Two out of the eight elected members who voted for the Motion stated that they did not regard the Resolution as a censure upon the Governor. It is not intended to take any steps in consequence of the Resolution. Papers on the subject have been laid on the Table, and will, I hope, shortly be circulated.

  BILLS OF EXCHANGE STAMPS.
  MR. BARROW: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether his attention has been called to the convenience that would be afforded to the commercial community of this country by the optional use of adhesive stamps on bills of ex-

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  change in lieu of embossed stumped forms, which are not always readily procurable, and if he will take early steps to give effect to this request?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir W. HARCOURT,): The subject has been under consideration on more than one occasion. It has been thought necessary, in the interests of the Revenue, to withstand the optional use of adhesive stamps to denote the duty on bills of exchange drawn in this country. I must, however, remind the hon. Member that forms of bills, or plain paper bearing impressed bills of exchange stamps, are kept for sale at every stamp office, or post office, at which fiscal stamps of any kind are kept. The Board of Inland Revenue are also prepared to fully consider any proposal for the increase of the present facilities, where any necessity for such increase can be shown.

  INDIAN FINANCE.
  MR. NAOROJI: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India whether he is aware of an important statement made in 1882 by Major Baring (now Lord Cromer) as Finance Minister of India, in his finance speech, that it has been calculated that the average income per head of population in India is not more than 27 rupees a year, and though not prepared to pledge himself to the absolute accuracy of a calculation of this sort, he stated that it is sufficiently accurate to justify the conclusion that the taxpaying community is exceedingly poor; and whether tins statement was based upon a Note prepared by the present Finance Minister, Sir David Barbour, entitled "An Inquiry into the Incidence of Taxation in British India;" and, if so, whether, in view of the importance and necessity of placing such information before this House, the Secretary of State for India will inform the House what the objection is to make a Return of the above-mentioned Note?
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Mr. GEORGE RUSSELL,): To the first part of my hon. Friend's question my answer is in the affirmative. There is reason to think that Major Baring's statement had reference to the confidential Note described by my hon.
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  Friend. The information on which that estimate was based is from 13 to 23 years old; and the Secretary of State thinks it inexpedient to present to Parliament a statement which is now so much out of date. The Secretary of State has consulted the Government of India, who concur with him.

  HAULBOWLINE DOCKYARD.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary to the Admiralty whether the Haulbowline Dockyard is receiving the money grant as promised to Ireland; and, if so, when will the 86 men recently disemployed from the extensions department be reengaged; whether it is intended that H.M.S. Triumph shall be repaired at Cork; and, if so, how soon, as the employment is much needed there; and whether the idle steam launches are now utilised to convey the men to and from work?
  THE CIVIL LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. E. ROBERTSON,): The work for which provision has been made at Haulbowline is being proceeded with, and such men as are needed will be engaged from time to time. As much of the repairs to the Triumph as can be carried out at Haulbowline will be done there. Inquiries are being made as regards the employment of the steam launches.

  THE PURCHASE OF MILITARY STORES FOR SPIKE ISLAND.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War if he is aware that the stores supplied to the military at Spike Island are imported from a London co-operative concern, to the detriment of local taxpayers in business; and whether he can take any steps to secure that military stores shall be purchased in the locality where the troops are stationed?
  *THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. CAMPBELL - BANNERMAN,&c.): I presume the question refers to canteen supplies. The canteen in each regiment is managed entirely by a committee which has complete control of the business. The War Office cannot interfere with its proceedings in the matter of the purchase of supplies.

  THE DOWAGER DUCHESS OF SUTHERLAND.
  MR. WARMINGTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he can inform the House whether the apartment in Holloway Prison now occupied by the Dowager Duchess of Sutherland is one usually occupied by persons imprisoned for contempt of Court; whether the fitting up of the said apartment, the permission to provide for her own entertainment and to receive visits from her friends, and other privileges enjoyed by Her Grace, are due to any relaxation of the rules of the prison applicable to ordinary cases of imprisonment for contempt of Court; and whether he can state by whose authority such relaxation, if any, was ordered, and on what grounds?
  MR. A. C. MORTON: I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can say on what grounds special indulgences have been granted to the Dowager Duchess of Sutherland in Holloway Gaol, especially the relaxation of the prison regulations by the visiting justices; and whether those indulgences will in future be allowed to all prisoners committed as first-class misdemeanants?
  MR. LOUGH: I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman also if he will explain by whose authority a prisoner recently sentenced to six weeks' imprisonment in Holloway Gaol has had a special apartment in the prison luxuriously fitted up in plush, with carpets, curtains, cushions, mirrors, and flowers, is permitted to be attended by her own maids and medical attendants, to receive the visits of her friends at all hours, to take exercise apart from the other prisoners, and to have her meals sumptuously provided; whether he is aware that she brought eight boxes of personal luggage with her to gaol; and whether any first-class misdemeanant is accorded these privileges; and, if not, why were they granted in this case?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. ASQUITH,): By Section 41 of the Prisons Act, 1877, persons imprisoned for contempt of Court are to be treated, not as criminal prisoners, but as misdemeanants of the first division. Rules were made in February, 1878, by the
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  Secretary of State, under the authority of the Prisons Act, 1865 and 1877, to regulate the treatment of misdemeanants of the first division. By those Rules, which have never been altered and are always observed in such cases, prisoners of this class are to be confined in a cell or room specially appropriated to them, and are not to be placed in association or at exercise with criminal prisoners. The Visiting Committee are empowered to permit such prisoners to have at their own cost the use of private furniture and utensils suitable to their ordinary habits, and to have for certain purposes the assistance of a servant appointed by the Governor. They may further supply their own food, subject to such restrictions as may be necessary to prevent luxury or waste, and wear their own clothing. The Visiting Committee may also accord them the privilege of receiving visitors to a reasonable extent. In the present case the ordinary Rules have been followed. The prisoner has been permitted by the Visiting Committee to provide her own furniture, and has been placed in the only room which is used where a similar permission has been ranted. I am told that the furniture is not excessive or unduly luxurious. Her meals are supplied at her own cost, and are reported not to be sumptuous or extravagant. She takes exercise as the Rules require apart from the criminal prisoners. She is not attended by her own maids and medical attendants. She brought with her, not eight boxes, but three, which contained, amongst other things, her bedding. The only visits which she has been allowed have been two, her visitors being her mother and two brothers and a private secretary, and she has received them in a suitable room and in the sight and hearing of a prison officer. An application by her for permission to see further visitors will be considered by the Visiting Committee at their next meeting. I see no reason to believe that the Rules have been violated, or that the Visiting Committee have accorded larger privileges than are usual in such cases.

  REPEATED PROSECUTIONS UNDER THE VACCINATION LAWS.
  MR. PICTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether his attention has

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  been called to the case of William Chittenden, of South Ashford, Kent, who has been summoned 18 times under the Vaccination Acts, and mulcted in fines and costs of about £15 for two children, and has recently been fined 5s. each child, with 18s. 4d. costs; whether, as such repeated prosecutions have been discouraged by the Local Government Board and condemned as at least inexpedient by a unanimous Report of the Royal Commission on Vaccination, he will advise the remission of the penalty in this and similar cases; and whether he will at once introduce the Bill of which he has given notice to amend the law?
  MR. ASQUITH: Between 1886 and the present date Chittenden has been fined 11 times for his refusal to have his two children vaccinated, and the total amount of the fines and costs for which he has so become liable has been nearly £15. I regret these repeated prosecutions for the same offence, but I should be repealing the law if I were to remit the penalty. I shall introduce the Bill of which I have given notice as soon as I am able.

  SCOTCH MEDICAL OFFICERS' SALARIES.
  DR. FARQUHARSON: I beg to ask the Lord Advocate whether it is in accordance with the law that County Councils should assess police burghs for salaries and other expenses of their Medical Officer and Sanitary Inspector?
  *THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALPOUR,&c.): I agree with the answer given by my Predecessor to a similar question on 4th May, 1891. These salaries and expenses are paid out of the general purposes rate to which police burghs contribute their share. The burghs are, in my view, entitled to the supervisory services of the county officers equally with the rural districts.

  THE NEW BATTLE COLLTERY ACCIDENT.
  MR. A. C. MORTON: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department whether he is aware that another accident has occurred at the New Battle Collieries, Midlothian, resulting in
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  the death of James Lynch, who was boiled or steamed to death while cleaning out a boiler, there being no person in charge of the boiler at the time he was doing this dangerous work; whether Her Majesty's Inspector of Mines has reported on this accident; and whether it is proposed to take any steps to prevent such accidents in the future?
  MR. ASQUITH: I have made inquiry, and find from the Report of Her Majesty's Inspector of Mines that the accident was due to the deceased omitting to take the ordinary precaution of warning the men in charge of the boilers that he was going to enter them. There was no question as to there being a defect of any kind either in the boilers or their fittings. I do not see any reason for directing a special inquiry into the case.

  THE RULE OF THE ROAD AT SEA.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he can explain the present position of the proposed new rule of the road at sea, and the purpose for which the Papers relating to that subject have been by command laid upon the Table of the House; if the rules were presented to Parliament with a view to their discussion before their final adoption; whether they are subject to the disapproval of the House, as is the case with Papers laid upon the Table for a fixed number of days under Statute; and whether Her Majesty's Government will afford any facilities for the discussion of the rules before their adoption?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. MUNDELLA,): The Papers referred to were laid upon the Table of the House of Commons to show the present position of the proposed amendments to the rule of the road at sea. The answer to the last three paragraphs is in the negative.

  REGISTRATION OF ELECTORS AMENDMENT BILL.
  MR. GIBSON BOWLES: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government Board whether his attention has been drawn to the great difficulty of duly appreciating the effect of the Registration of Electors Amendment Bill upon the 20 Acts of Parliament partially or wholly repealed by the Bill, owing to

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  the difficulty in referring to and collecting those Acts with the changes therein specified in the 2nd Schedule to the Bill; and whether he has any objection to laying upon the Table of the House a statement containing the 20 Acts of Parliament specified in the 2nd Schedule to the Bill, so printed as to display the exact alterations proposed by the Bill to be made in those Acts, and to show the whole effect of the Bill as regards the changes it would make in existing Statutes?
  *THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. II. H. FOWLER,): I am in communication with the Parliamentary Draftsman on the subject of the suggestion of the hon. Member. It will be my desire to arrange for the adoption of some course which will be in accordance with the wishes of the hon. Member in this matter.
  MR. HOWELL: Will the right hon. Gentleman consent to present the Acts referred to in the form of a Consolidation Bill?
  MR. H. H. FOWLER: I do not think that would be very easy. I can hold out no hope of that.
  MR. BARTLEY: May I point out that if the various Acts now in force could be codified in some handy form it would much facilitate the discussion of the Bill.

  WARRANT OFFICER INSTRUCTORS.
  MAJOR DARWIN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether he will take into consideration the advisability of the warrant officer instructors of the instructional branches of the Army being allowed to serve till 55 years of age, thus placing them on an equality in this respect with the Army schoolmasters?
  *MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The warrant officer instructors are already allowed to serve five years longer than those employed in the more active duties of a regiment, and in any very special case power is taken in the Royal Warrant to continue a warrant officer for five years more. My military advisers do not consider that it would be for the good of the Service to go beyond these limits.

  HOURS OF LABOUR IN SHOPS.
  SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps he proposes to take to carry out the unanimous Resolution of the House in favour of shortening the hours of labour in shops?
  MR. ASQUITH: I was careful in supporting the Motion of my right hon. Friend to intimate that I was not in a position to pledge the Government to take action in the matter. I feel certain that my Colleagues will attach great and due weight to the unanimous Resolution of this House; but in the present Session, at any rate, we cannot add to the engagements which we have already undertaken.

  REPORTED DISTURBANCES AT NASSAU.
  MR. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he can give the House any information as to the reported disturbances at Nassau, Bahamas?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: The following telegram was received from the Governor of the Bahamas on the 19th April:—
  "Disturbance began in coloured quarter on night of 15th, when a prisoner was rescued and a murderous assault made on police, whose station was wrecked, and the Inspector who was sent for was seriously injured. Mob in quarter in question truculent, and an attempt to arrest ringleaders would hazard lives, and might fail, leaving community at mercy of coloured infuriated mob. On the 17th one of the Constabulary in open day and in town was felled to the ground and seriously injured. This unprovoked act led his comrades to break out of barracks without authority, and they rushed into the streets fully armed, having got ammunition by stealth. They refused to obey the orders of Commandant, and I was obliged to interfere personally to compel their return to barracks. Matters are now in abeyance, but on arrival of gunboat on 22nd we shall proceed to arrest ringleaders, and hope to accomplish objects without serious difficulty."
  We have to-day received this further telegram—
  "Partridge arrived 24th April. No further disturbances. Proceeding with execution of law, and hope its temperate assertion will soon result in restoration of normal conditions."

  THE LIQUOR TRAFFIC BILL.
  SIR REGINALD HANSON: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the

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  Exchequer whether all off-licences, including those known as grocers' licences, are intended to be comprised in the Liquor Traffic (Local Control) Bill?
  SIR W. HARCOURT: Yes, Sir.

  EXCISE COLLECTIONS IN IRELAND.
  MR. BRODRICK: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer, with reference to the fact that the Estimate of the Irish Excise presented to Parliament in connection with the Irish Government Bill was based on the estimated receipts of the year 1892–3, that the total Excise collected in 1892–3 was less than the Estimate by £200,000, the total Estimate for 1893–4 is less than the total Estimate for 1892–3 by nearly £550,000, and that a corresponding fall must have taken place in the Excise collected in aid of Local Taxation, will he explain what corresponding deduction must be made in the funds available for the service of the Irish Government under the Irish Government Bill?
  SIR W. HARCOURT: The hon. Member is in error in supposing that the total Excise collested in 1892–3 was less than the Estimate by £300,000. It did, in fact, fall short of the Estimate by about £90,000, as shown by the printed paper delivered with the Budget. When he speaks of the total Estimate for 1893–4 falling short of that for 1892–3 by £600,000, he is presumably referring not to Excise, but to the total of tax and non-tax Revenue, which is a different thing altogether. It is impossible to draw an Irish balance sheet for 1893–4 until the movement of duty-paid articles between England and Ireland in 1892–3 is tabulated. This work is in hand.
  MR. BRODRICK: Perhaps I may be allowed to explain that the right hon. Gentleman has not answered the question on the Paper. May I ask whether, having regard to the great fall in the Excise since he presented this statement, he will present a revised Estimate of the Irish receipts upon the proposed Irish Government?
  SIR W. HARCOURT: I think it should be possible to make an approximate Estimate for 1893–4. It shall be completed as soon as possible.
  MR. SEXTON: How soon shall we have the actual figures of Irish Receipts and Expenditure?
  SIR W. HARCOURT: I am afraid I cannot exactly say just now.

  COLONIAL PARLIAMENTARY EXPENDITURE.
  MR. BRODRICK: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he will consent to a Return showing the amounts expended by the Colonies of Victoria and New South Wales, respectively, on the erection and maintenance of Houses of Parliament, on Parliamentary staff, and other Parliamentary expenditure other than the payment of Members?
  MR. SYDNEY BUXTON: Yes, Sir; the Return will be granted.

  IMPRISONMENT FOR ESTREATED BAIL.
  MR. CAINE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department if his attention has been called to a case which was heard by Mr. Justice Mathew in Chambers on the 21st instant, and reported in The Daily Chronicle last Saturday, when a man was discharged from Holloway Prison on a writ of habeas corpus, after a detention of more than a month as a Crown debtor; is he aware that he was originally arrested under a writ of attachment for an estreated bail, given by another person unknown who personated him; that at the time he protested against his arrest, and declared that he had never gone bail for anybody; that no opportunity was given to him of appearing before any Court to prove the truth of his story; and whether he will take steps by legislation or otherwise to secure that bail shall not be accepted without inquiry into its bona fides?
  MR. ASQUITH: The answer to the first paragraph is in the affirmative. The man referred to was originally arrested under a writ of attachment for an estreated bail, and he at the time protested against his arrest, and declared that he had never gone bail for anyone. He then sent a Petition to the Home Office; inquiries were made by the police, and also by a solicitor on his behalf, and ultimately he was brought by habeas corpus before Mr. Justice Mathew, who decided not that he was not the person who had given bail, but that there was too much doubt on the point for him to be detained in prison. It appears that the person, whoever he

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  was, who offered himself for bail professed to be Richard Hall, brother of George Hall, for whom bail was to be given; that he gave Richard Hall's correct address and produced Richard Hall's rent-book, and the Magistrate was satisfied at the time that he was Richard Hall. The Judge suggested that in future the person offering himself for bail should be required, as an additional security, to sign his name, and this matter is at present under consideration.
  MR. CAINE: Will any compensation be paid?
  MR. ASQUITH: I do not think there is any ground for entertaining the question of compensation.

  INDIAN RETURN.
  MR. NAOROJI: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for India whether the Secretary of State for India will make a Return of a Note by Lord Lytton as Viceroy, referred to in paragraph 14 of the Letter dated 2nd May, 1878, of the Government of India to the Secretary of State for India?
  MR. G. RUSSELL: The Note referred to was not sent with the Despatch in which it was mentioned; it has never reached the India Office, and cannot be given. It was, doubtless, a confidential Paper written by the Viceroy for the benefit of the Members of his Council.

  RAILWAY RATES FOR LIVE STOCK.
  MR. FIELD: I beg to ask the President of the Board of Trade whether he is aware that, up to the present date, the Great Eastern, London and Brighton, and London and South Western Railway Companies are still charging the increased rate, amounting to about 52 per cent. on live stock carriage; and whether he will ask the aforesaid companies, and all other Railway Companies, to revert to the old rates, and also to reimburse the extra charges which have been levied since 1st January?
  MR. MUNDELLA: I have communicated with the three Railway Companies mentioned, and they all deny any such increases as are specified. I shall be very happy to show the answers of the companies to the hon. Member.

  FREE EDUCATION.
  SIR RICHARD TEMPLE: I beg to ask the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education whether he has recently received a certain number of applications Prom persons desiring free education for their children; and, if so, how many; whether the signatures are verified as being bonâ fide those of parents of children attending elementary schools; and whether he will inquire into the circumstances under which these signatures are obtained?
  THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL (Mr. ACLAND,): I receive applications from persons desiring free education for their children in greater or less numbers nearly every day. Such applications have been received from considerably over 100 school districts, and on behalf of about 35,000 children. The signatures to these applications are verified by reference to the Local Authority. As I have already stated in the House, it is no part of the duty of the Department under the Act to inquire into the circumstances under which these signatures are obtained.

  PORTNESS HARBOUR WORKS.
  MR. WEIR: I beg to ask the Secretary for Scotland whether advantage is being taken of the fine weather to push forward the harbour works at Portness, Island of Lewis; if not, will steps be taken to carry out this work without further delay; and whether he is aware that, in consequence of the dangerous state of the entrance to this harbour, there are more widows and orphans in this district than in any other part of the United Kingdom?
  *SIR G. TREVELYAN: The Harbour Trustees have hitherto been disappointed from various causes in finding a contractor to undertake the construction of the proposed breakwater at Portness; but I am at present in communication with the Harbour Trustees in reference to another contractor who has tendered, and it is hoped that arrangements will now soon be settled. I regret to say that there have been from time to time many boats lost, and it is the dangerous and exposed character of the coast that makes it so difficult to find a contractor.

  THE VICTORIAN ORDER FOR MAGAZINE RIFLES.
  MR. HANBURY: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War when the second order for magazine rifles was given by the Government of Victoria; whether this second order was, like the first, countermanded; and on what grounds was it withdrawn?
  *MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: The Government of Victoria gave their second order for magazine rifles on the 23rd February, 1892, and it was countermanded on the 6th April following. No reasons were given for the withdrawal of the order.

  ARMENIAN ARRESTS.
  SIR RICHARD TEMPLE: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether his attention has been drawn to the arrest and imprisonment, by the Turkish Authorities at Marsovan, Armenia, of Pastor Thoumaïan and Mr. Kujadjian, the one a professor and the other a teacher in the American Missionary College at Marsovan, on a charge of being associated with a revolutionary movement; whether he is aware that these gentlemen were in no way connected with any revolutionary movement, but confined their attention exclusively to the work of the Christian Mission at Marsovan, and that the arrest of Pastor Thoumaïan was owing to the fact that a man bearing a similar name, and who is known to be an advocate of revolutionary and socialistic ideas, is now fugitive from the authorities; whether the funds collected by Madame Thoumaïan were solely on behalf of a hospital, to be used both for Turks and Christians, and are held by the Trustees of the Mildmay Conference Hall, Mildmay Park, London; whether their arrest last 28th January, and imprisonment since, is in contravention of the Treaty of Berlin; and whether Her Majesty's Government will take steps to inquire into the matter with a view to the liberation of these missionaries?
  *THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (Sir E. GREY,): My attention has been drawn to all the statements made in the questions; but Her Majesty's Government have not at present sufficient
  1306
  information to enable them to express an opinion upon them. The Vice Consul at Angora is instructed to report on the trial of these Armenian prisoners, and we cannot at present assert that there has been a contravention of the Treaty of Berlin.
  *MR. WEIR: Will a Representative of Her Majesty's Government be present at the trial?
  *SIR E. GREY: I have already stated that the Vice Consul at Angora has been instructed to report, and he must watch and attend the trial.

  MR. J. SPENCER BALFOUR.
  MR. HOWELL: I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he can state to the House what steps are being taken to expedite the return to this country of Jabez Spencer Balfour, for whose arrest a warrant has been issued; whether he can state if the warrant has been served upon the said Jabez Spencer Balfour; whether negotiations are going on between Her Majesty's Government and any foreign country for the extradition of the said Jabez Spencer Balfour; and whether he can state to the House if any, and if so what, difficulties exist in the way of such extradition?
  SIR E. GREY: No further information has been received since the last question was asked, and it would not assist the interests of justice to make any detailed statement at the present time.

  THE STATE OF BELFAST.
  MR. JOHNSTON: I wish to ask the Home Secretary whether he can give the House any information as to the present state of affairs in Belfast?
  MR. ASQUITH: I must ask the hon. Member to postpone this question until to-morrow, when my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary will be in his place.

  DISCHARGING A REVOLVER ON THE HORSE GUARDS' PARADE.
  MR. SEXTON: I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary whether it is true, as reported, that a man, who was observed to be going up the steps to Downing Street at 12 o'clock last night, showing that the prisoner had

  1307
  followed, turned round when challenged by a policeman and discharged a revolver; and that, when taken to the station, there was found on the man a record of the Prime Minister's recent movements and an entry stating as follows:—
  "The Second Reading of the Irish Home Rule Bill passed by Gladstone's Government by their full majority, 43—including that cur Saunders. All this talking appears not to have made a single convert. However, it is now time for action. What was the use of the Ulstermen howling and calling him a traitor? That won't upset the Bill. There is such a thing as wilful murder, and yet it might be simply and purely justifiable homicide. Now prove it. What said Sir Henry James, one of the greatest lawyers in the land, and yet one of the kindest; of men? See Gladstone's speech last night"?
  MR. ASQUITH: This is a serious matter, and it is now the subject of police inquiry and judicial investigation. I must, therefore, ask my hon. Friend to excuse my postponing answering the question or entering into the circumstances of this matter to-day.

  THE OUTRAGE IN A BANK.
  SIR J. PEASE: I beg to ask the Home Secretary, with regard to the recent outrage in a bank at Durham, where a clerk was wounded by a revolver, whether it is intended to take any steps for registering the sale of revolvers?
  MR. ASQUITH: This is a subject which has engaged my careful consideration, and with the aid of the Under Secretary I have drawn up at least the heads of a measure which I hope will satisfactorily deal with the matter. I do not know when I shall be able to introduce it.

  EQUALISATION OF METROPOLITAN RATING.
  MR. BARROW: May I ask whether the statement in The Daily News is true that the Government have drafted a Bill for the equalisation of rating in London, and that it is intended to introduce it as soon as possible?
  *MR. H. H. FOWLER: I have seen the paragraph, and my answer is this: that the House has unanimously passed a Resolution, and I have given a pledge on behalf of the Government that they will endeavour to see whether a measure
  1308
  can be introduced carrying out the spirit of the Resolution. That question has been occupying my attention ever since, and I am happy to say that I now see my way to asking leave in a few days to introduce a Bill which will, to some extent, meet the proposal.
  MR. STUART: I beg to ask whether, considering the great importance of this measure to London, the right hon. Gentleman is in a position to say that the Government will be able to take steps to insure that the House will have the opportunity of deciding on the successive stages of this measure during the present Session?
  *MR. H. H. FOWLER: If the Government bring in a Bill it will be with the intention of asking the House to pass it. If the prospect had been hopeless, I should not have contemplated the bringing in of the Bill. I think, however, that the measure will receive fair consideration, and that there is every prospect of its being passed into law.

  LANCASHIRE MAGISTRATES.
  SIR F. MILNER: I beg to ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster whether, in view of the grave charge he made in his speech on Tuesday against certain Justices of the Peace that they had refused to take declarations from members of the Gladstonian Party, he will give the names of the Justices and state the occasions on which the refusals took place?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE DUCHY OF LANCASTER (Mr. BRYCE,): The hon. Member is not entitled to put any such question, and I decline to answer him. Had I brought any charge, grave or otherwise, against any individual, I should feel myself bound to give particulars; but as it appears from the hon. Member's question I did nothing of the sort, I should depart from well-established usage were I to give an answer to the question he has just put.
  SIR F. MILNER: I referred to the speech which the right hon. Gentleman made on Tuesday, in which he distinctly said that certain Justices of the Peace had refused to take declarations from members of the Gladstonian Party.
  MR. TOMLINSON: May I ask upon what grounds the right hon. Gentleman claims "well-established

  1309
  usage" in order to make a wholesale charge without any justification, or to decline to make an answer?
  MR. BRYCE: I made no wholesale charge whatever. I said that I had heard of instances in which Magistrates had refused to take declarations tendered by members of the opposite Party, and I added that I did not bring this as a charge against one political Party, because, as far as I knew, it might be common to both.
  SIR F. MILNER: May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether I should be in Order in putting the Question down on the Paper for to-morrow, and in quoting the words of the right hon. Gentleman as reported in The Times?
  *MR. SPEAKER: If the hon. Gentleman puts the question on the Paper, and it contains anything irregular, the question will be revised.

MOTION.
  PRISON (OFFICERS' SUPERANNUATION) BILL.

    LEAVE. FIRST READING
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to explain and amend certain provisions of 'The Prison Act, 1877,' with respect to the Superannuation of Officers."—(Mr. Asquith.)
    VISCOUNT CRANBORNE: Ought we not to have some explanation of the scope and object of this Bill?
    MR. ASQUITH: I do not see why the Government should not have the same latitude in these matters as private Members. The object of the Bill is to amend certain technical defects in the wording of the Act of 1877, which have excluded from compensation officers who are undoubtedly entitled.
    Motion agreed to.
    Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. Secretary Asquith and Mr. Herbert Gladstone.
    Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 325.]

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  WAYS AND MEANS.—COMMITTEE.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)

  WAYS AND MEANS.—COMMITTEE.

    INCOME TAX.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be charged, collected, and paid for the year which commenced on the sixth day of April, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-three, in respect of all Property, Profits, and Gains mentioned or described as chargeable in 'The Income Tax, 1853,' the following Duties of Income Tax (that is to say):—
    For every Twenty Shillings of the annual value or amount of Property, Profits, and Gains chargeable under Schedules (A), (C), (D), or (E) of the said Act, the Duty of Seven Pence;
    And for every Twenty Shillings of the annual value of the occupation of Lands, Tenements, Hereditaments, and Heritages chargeable under Schedule (B) of the said Act—

    In England, the Duty of Three Pence Halfpenny;

    In Scotland and Ireland respectively, the Duty of Two Pence Halfpenny;

    Subject to the provisions contained in section one hundred and sixty-three of 'The Income Tax Act, 1842,' for the exemption of persons whose income is less than One Hundred and Fifty Pounds, and in section eight of 'The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1876,' for the relief of persons whose income is less than Four Hundred Pounds."—(The Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
    *MR. GOSCHEN: Before my right hon. Friend the Member for the University of London moves the Amendment which stands in his name, I will ask permission to offer to the House some general observations on the financial scheme of the Government. One feeling of intense satisfaction must, I think, have animated the minds of hon. Members opposite while the Chancellor of the Exchequer was explaining his Budget scheme and the proposed increase of the Income Tax, and that is that the Home Rule Bill had not yet passed. It is obvious that if we were discussing this measure in what Lord Salisbury called the smaller House of Commons, unadorned by the presence of hon. Gentlemen from Ireland, unassisted by their counsels, and uncontrolled by their votes, the doom of the Government might be scaled to-night. [Laughter and cheers.] At all events,

    1311
    they would be at the mercy of the British majority in the House of Commons; and I would ask hon. Members from Ireland to consider during the progress of this discussion when they would be able to take part in the proceedings and when they would be compelled to absent themselves. We have passed the Resolution relating to Tea. On that subject we should have invited their co-operation. We are now asked to pass a Resolution relating to the Income Tax. On that question they would have no votes. We should then discuss some measures relating to Stamps, and the Irish Members would still have no votes; but if we discussed the proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer with reference to the Treasury Chest, the Irish Members would again be summoned to this House. On previous occasions, when it was my duty to submit the financial proposals of the late Government, after the customary exchange of compliments and courtesies on the first night of the discussion, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer used to rise with some wrath and indignation and denounce me to the House of Commons, airing the austere sanctity of his own financial orthodoxy. I will not follow the right hon. Gentleman in a similar manner. On the contrary, I am bound to say that I feel for him much friendly pity in his great misfortune. There must be a great disappointment in store not only for the right hon. Gentleman himself, but for hon. Gentlemen who sit behind him. We know the expectations during the Election. There was to be much financial reform in every direction, reduced Military and Naval Expenditure: democratic finance was to be tackled, and a new era was to set in. And now what a bathos! This expected Budget ends in a proposal of an additional 1d. on the Income Tax and in a Licence Duty on dealers in foreign game. I condole, in all sincerity, with my successor on his baffled ambition and on his blighted financial hopes. I am only glad that, at all events, the arrangements made with regard to the Estimates for Expenditure and the Revenue of last year have not contributed, in any way, to the somewhat difficult and painful task of the right hon. Gentleman. He was good enough to express himself in kindly terms with regard to the exactitude of
    1312
    the Estimates both as regards Expenditure and Income. As regards the Estimates of Revenue he gave some interesting statistics, and showed how extraordinarily the averages had come out. I might add this further remark as to how the averages came out. Not only were these averages correctly calculated, but in those items where it is possible to make a forecast, the forecast, even in detail, was extremely correct. The main divergence from the Estimates in detail was on the Death Duties, in which case it was more than usually difficult to make any estimate, not only as regards the number of persons who may die within the year, but also as to the manner in which they may dispose of their property, so as to make it liable to varying rates of duty from 1 to 10 per cent. With regard to the great articles of consumption, I gather that the proved experience of the past has again been corroborated—namely, that when a depression of trade sets in the first falling-off is in spirits; the next, at a long interval, is on tea, while tobacco is seldom touched at all. It seems that tobacco, which is the luxury of the working man in his time of prosperity, becomes his comfort in time of depression, and in that item we may be glad to see, even in bad times, there is no falling-off. I do not think there is any other item on the Revenue side which I need discuss just now, and I come to the observations of the right hon. Gentleman on the Expenditure of last year. The right hon. Gentleman showed that the result of the whole year was that there was a small surplus of £20,000, which he was good enough to say would have been larger but for the unexpected Supplemental Estimate at the very last moment—I think in the month of February or March. But the right hon. Gentleman, through his past utterances, was compelled to shy, if I may use the expression, at the word "surplus." I do not wish to revive this controversy beyond the point to which it has been forced upon me by the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman. He was compelled by his past to say he did not regard this as a surplus, because he said we had borrowed during the year. But the right hon. Gentleman is going to borrow during the coming year, and accordingly, if we are to adopt his own

    1313
    phraseology, he is working up to a deficit in this coming year. He accepts that view. A more extraordinary doctrine to hold— that it is legitimate to work up to a deficiency in the financial year—was never placed before a Committee of the House of Commons. We deny entirely that borrowing for Capital Expenditure docs involve the question of a surplus or no surplus. In past borrowings for Capital Expenditure, for the Military Forces Localization Bill, for the purchase of the telegraphs, and similar purposes, we have over and over again treated them as Capital Expenditure; and it does not, as I have said, affect the question of surplus or no surplus. If we had held the doctrine of the right hon. Gentleman, we should have been wrong not to have made other provision for such outlay. The right hon. Gentleman says these are remanets, and that he is going to borrow for purposes which have been previously undertaken, and for which money had been borrowed. But if he considers it wrong to borrow, it is perfectly open to him, under the very Acts to which he has made allusion, to pay the amounts out of Revenue if he considers it to be false and unsound finance to meet them out of capital. The right hon. Gentleman spoke of a balance of a certain amount which was borrowed for telephones. Well, but surely telephones stand upon the same footing as the purchase of telegraphs, and this balance on the same footing as would any balance in respect of the Military Localization Acts? If he does not hold that view, but stands by the view he preached in Opposition, that it was wrong and misleading to provide for extraordinary efforts and for this Capital Expenditure in the manner of his Predecessors, it was open to him to take some other course and, difficult as the situation was, to face it. The right hon. Gentleman said when he came to meet the deficit—"We do not intend to meet it by continuing to borrow." The words "continuing to borrow" must have given the Committee the idea that if he had borrowed he would have continued the system which we had inaugurated. How can he borrow for such normal and regular expenditure as education or the Post Office salaries, or the various items which constitute the excess of this year? He is perfectly right not to borrow, and no
    1314
    Government would dream of borrowing under the circumstances. I do not think it was quite fair of the right hon. Gentleman in his speech, which was otherwise very candid on his part, to say—"We do not intend to continue to borrow." I pass from the consideration of the Expenditure and the Revenue of last year to what the Committee always think a far more interesting portion of the Budget Statement— namely, the Expenditure and the Revenue for the coming year. As regards the Revenue of the coming year, it seems to me that it is based on sound principles, and I sincerely hope that the Estimate will be realised. There are some questions of detail which I should like to ask with regard to the Revenue; but I would prefer, on the present occasion, to treat the matter more broadly and not go into detail. I come to the Expenditure of the present year. The Committee will remember that the deficit which the right hon. Gentleman is unfortunately called upon to meet is due to the increase in the Expenditure of about £1,100,000 and a falling-off in Revenue of about £500,000. The right hon. Gentleman dwelt at some length and with considerable eloquence on the increased Expenditure. He pointed out that it is due in the main to an increase in the Post Office of upwards of £600,000 and an increase in the Education Vote of £300,000. I have seen it stated that the right hon. Gentleman had got a deficit because he had got to pay some debt which I had incurred. The right hon. Gentleman himself knows that this is absolutely incorrect, and he stated with accuracy the main reason of the deficit which he has incurred. But he omitted one item of increase, and a very interesting item it was—an item of £ 170,000 increase in the Military Expenditure. I am sure hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House will have seen with great satisfaction that so soon as right hon. Gentlemen opposite came into a responsible position, all the vague talk about our bloated Expenditure and all the electioneering advantage which was gained by saying we were spending millions too much on the Army —that all that talk was absolutely baseless and fictitious, so far as responsible Ministers are concerned. I wish particularly to call the attention of hon. Members opposite to this point, because

    1315
    it is really one which concerns very vitally the interests of the State. The Ministers opposite have had the opportunity of examining carefully the Estimates. They have been for eight months in Office, and as regards the Navy they have loyally carried out the programme of their Predecessors, and they have done more. They have put before the Committee a programme of additional ships, though they have not yet been good enough to state the details on which they base the vast expenditure which they intend to incur upon it. But I wish to call the attention of hon. Members opposite to the mistakes into which they have been led at the last Election through the unfounded belief that we were establishing the Army and Navy on a scale which was unnecessary. They have, I think, reason to complain that their responsible Leaders did not earlier warn them of the difficulties into which they would get and how certain it was they would be beguiled and deluded in their expectation of being able to see millions cut off the Military Expenditure so soon as their friends came into Office. Be that as it may, we have to face the fact that in the financial arrangements for the present year there is an expenditure for the Army and Navy upon the same scale—or rather upon a slightly increased scale—as that of the late Government. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer is probably not specially responsible for the maintenance of these large Estimates at their present point; and it emphasises the necessity for the Expenditure that he, with all his influence in the Cabinet, and with a falling Revenue, was, nevertheless, compelled to consent to these Estimates. A clearer or stronger proof could not be afforded of the fact that we have endeavoured so to administer the armed Services as neither to incur waste nor encourage expenditure beyond what was the necessary point. Had it not been so, and if half a million could have been saved, would not the right hon. Gentleman have succeeded in persuading his colleagues to enable him thus to meet his deficit? I pass to the Civil Expenditure, where the right hon. Gentleman held language with part of which I cordially concur. He said both Parties were responsible for the increase in the Civil Service Expenditure, and that if
    1316
    the House of Commons and the country demanded extravagant expenditure in many respects in the Civil Service, then those who called the tune must pay the piper. But those who call the tune are not precisely the persons who are called upon to pay the piper. When I come to discuss the particular plans of the right hon. Gentleman I shall show there is a class very hard hit indeed—the lower and poorer middle class, who suffer deeply from the imposition of 1d. in the Income Tax, and who cannot be held responsible for any of those movements which have resulted in such a vast expenditure. I agree with the Chancellor of the Exchequer as to the House of Commons being responsible for a great deal of the increased Expenditure. The Committee know that when free education was proposed the House of Commons were not satisfied with the plans put before them, and they adopted plans which led to an increased Expenditure. Of course, as the right hon. Gentleman pointed out, the House of Commons and the country must not be surprised with having increased Estimates if such movements continue. Then let me take the question of the Post Office, where the right hon. Gentleman put down his foot very strongly. But I wish, as late Chancellor of the Exchequer, he had put some restraint upon his Colleague, the present Chief Commissioner of Works. While the only economists, the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Prime Minister, were frequently not in the House on such occasions, the present Chief Commissioner of Works (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) came down to the House and insisted on continual improvements in the Post Office, which have brought the right hon. Gentleman into the position in which he now finds himself. In reference to the expenditure on telegrams, of which the right hon. Gentleman spoke, it was his own Colleague who reduced the rate from 1s. to 6d., to the great advantage of trade, but with an increased loss to the Exchequer. Without desiring to treat the matter in any controversial spirit, I do not think the late Government received much support from right hon. Gentlemen opposite in resisting such expenditure even when they themselves desired to resist these Motions in the House of Commons. Unless Members of the Opposition assist

    1317
    it is impossible to resist these Motions. May I touch on another point—an unpopular point—I mean that relating to the Civil Service? Organisations—I might almost say Trades Unions—have been formed in nearly every department of the Civil Service, to the loss of discipline and the encouragement of extravagance. The consequence is seen in a vast increase of wages, and those wages the country has to pay. If the House of Commons is generous in the treatment of its servants—and it ought to be generous without being extravagant—it ought carefully to see that its generosity does not penalise any class which is already suffering acutely from its particular share of taxation. Then the House of Commons wishes now to buy in the dearest market and to pay the highest possible wages; and all this must be written in the Estimates of this and other years. I hope the Chancellor of the Exchequer will admit that, as far as this point is concerned, I am meeting frankly the challenge which he threw down. I do not wish to escape any share of responsibility in endeavouring to show that the Estimates should not be unduly augmented where it is not required by justice. Here I might ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether he has taken into account in his Estimates the increase there may be in the Naval Dockyards through the new classification which I understand has been passed by the Admiralty; and whether further account has been taken of the increase in wages generally which may follow upon the adoption of the Resolution passed not many weeks ago, and which was one of the first symptoms of the probable action of this Parliament with regard to the economy which the right hon. Gentleman desires? The result of the Estimates to which I have alluded is that there is a deficit in the coming year of £1,500,000 or £1,600,000, and the right hon. Gentleman asked—How am I to meet it? In the first place, he said that it would not be met by borrowing. Of course not. On that we are all agreed. Then he said it would not be met by a suspension of the Sinking Fund. I entirely agree with him. It was the right hon. Gentleman's sad lot, in a former Budget which also fell at an unfortunate time for the right hon. Gentleman, to find no other means of meeting a deficit than by suspending
    1318
    two or three small Sinking Funds for the year 1885.
    SIR W. HARCOURT: For one year.
    *MR. GOSCHEX: Yes, only for one year. That is to say, they were to be revived by his successor, after the right hon. Gentleman had had the advantage of their suspension. I happened to be that successor. If the right hon. Gentleman thinks the Sinking Funds are not sufficient, the time will come when it will be thought right to readjust the matter; but it does not lie in the mouth of the right hon. Gentleman, though it does in the mouths of other gentlemen, to tax me with having suspended the Sinking Fund. Then the right hon. Gentleman went on to say that practically the only way of meeting the deficiency was by putting an additional 1d. on the Income Tax. He felt that other reforms were looked for from him, and he mentioned the Death Duties. He gave two reasons for not dealing with the Death Duties. One was the question of time, and the other was that this reform would not give him enough to meet the deficit. The right hon. Gentleman said that the second was the more important reason. I cannot see that, because if he had dealt with the Death Duties, which was expected of him quite apart from the question of the deficit, he would, nevertheless, have had a considerable contribution towards the deficit. The right hon. Gentleman was also expected by his followers to deal with a great many other questions. Take the question of the contribution to rates. The right hon. Gentleman does not like the amount of £7,000,000 to go to rates, nor does he like the system under which it is given. He and the Prime Minister attacked me because they said I had established a duplicate system of finance; and the Prime Minister quoted this system as a precedent for his Customs arrangement with regard to the Home Rule Bill. That Bill fixes the Customs Duties for 15 years. The arrangement which I made can be changed to-day if the right hon. Gentleman chooses to do it. That shows that there is no analogy whatever between the two cases. Parliament is left absolutely free in the matter, and if the right hon. Gentleman has a plan by which the local finance can be better

    1319
    met, it is merely a question of time. Lot him produce it, and put local taxation on a better footing. I frankly say I am not so enamoured of the appropriation of the particular taxes which now went to the Local Authorities, as to be unwilling to consider any counter proposals which may come from the right hon. Gentleman. Other proposals have been made. Sir Thomas Farrer, the great financial guide of right hon. Gentlemen opposite, whose book supplied them with the main arguments against my finance, has got a plan, and a very bad plan indeed it is, in my judgment. But the right hon. Gentleman did not dream of touching it, and I think I know why. Other I questions have been urged upon him—I do not know whether since he has been in Office, but they were in the air during the last Election. I should be much obliged if the right hon. Gentleman would give us his view as to the possibility of some financial reforms that were urged upon the electors during that Election. The right hon. Gentleman, no doubt, knows of the famous electioneering card. The Star said, with regard to it—"This is the little bombshell which has exploded in the Tory camp." I want to know why this "little bombshell" should not now explode among Ministers themselves, if they leave untouched the state of things which was described in the card as being disgraceful to the Tory Party? This was the statement on the card—
    "The poor man's tea pays 3d. in the shilling to taxation; the rich man's tea pays 1d. in the shilling to taxation."
    What is the opinion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this statement? What is the opinion of the Prime Minister, who is a great financial authority?
    "The poor man's tobacco pays 10½d. in the shilling to taxation; the rich man's cigar pays ½d. in the shilling to taxation."
    Yet all this is to be left as it is. These thoughts have not troubled the right hon. Gentleman after the seats were won. I shall be much surprised if he rises in his place now and says he agrees with the statement I have quoted. But if he does he will be corrected by the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Mundella), who is so impregnated with hostility to anything like an ad valorem duty that he attacked the very small
    1320
    tendency to an ad valorem duty that I introduced into the Wine Duties. I do not think there is anyone on the opposite Bench who will rise and say anything except that, whether this is just or unjust, they would only deal with the matter by the total remission of any of these taxes, and that they will not introduce an ad valorem system either with regard to tea or tobacco. The Prime Minister, if he had seen his way to what may be called a more equitable distribution in this respect informer times, would, of course, have carried it out. It is only by remission that you can deal with this question at all. Hon. Members below the Gangway, in that future democratic finance for which time may, perhaps, be found when they have ceased to take the Constitution to pieces, may be able to do what has baffled the ablest men in the Customs and Inland Revenue, and baffled the right hon. Gentleman and all other financiers who have dealt with these questions.
    *MR. LOGAN: Might I be allowed to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he disputes the truth of those assertions?
    MR. GOSCHEN: I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman for his interruption. The sting of this is not in the truth of the statement. For what says The Star newspaper? I must explain this to the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister. Elections were won by this card. We always call it the card-trick, and a very successful card-trick it was. It was defended in local newspapers. I attempted to answer the statement, but the only answer that could be made was the difficulty of remedying the grievance.
    SIR W. HARCOURT: What is the card?
    MR. GOSCHEN: The Star is, I believe, friendly to the present Government, and its existence should not be inquired about by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    SIR W. HARCOURT: I asked about the card.
    MR. GOSCHEN: The card was put in The Star. Of course, the right hon. Gentleman may think that this card may not have had much effect.
    SIR W. HARCOURT: I never heard of it.
    *MR. GOSCHEN: The right hon. Gentleman has done me the honour of reading my speeches sometimes when he wanted to refute me, and I have alluded to the card once or twice, if not three times. We had better have this matter out because as we lost some seats by it at the last Election we had better not, at all events, lose them in the next. What says the influential organ?—
    "The Tories hare been hard hit by a little card issued during the Harborough Election. Mr. Goschen has attacked the card, and Mr. Balfour dealt with it last night as a sample of 'Liberal invention.' The reason why the card has thus received the attention of the two Leaders of the Tory Party is that it condensed the truth about unequal taxation in a pithy and telling way which is not without effect among working men.… Every statement here is absolutely correct. Mr. Charles Coppack, Mr. Logan's agent, and the author of the card, defended it point by point, and from indisputable statistics, in his answer to Mr. Goschen, which we published the other day. The sting of the card is in its tail, which asks the pertinent question—'Does any working man suppose he will help to right these wrongs by voting Tory?"
    [Ministerial cheers.] Gentlemen opposite cheer; but I want to ask them do they think the working man has gained anything in this respect by voting for the Government? Now see how straightforward and generous I am. I am giving the right hon. Gentleman an opportunity of answering this question. If I had not touched upon this, it might have been thought that the right hon. Gentleman had passed it over. Now it will be seen how it will be treated by the Government. My point is that something more is expected from a Chancellor of the Exchequer than simply to meet a deficit. He is expected to redress the inequalities of taxation, and he is expected to redeem pledges. The right hon. Gentleman was pledged to deal with the Death Duties. Why has he not done so? The right hon. Gentleman says because he has not had time. But I will suggest another reason. I am very doubtful whether the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister has any sympathy with these new developments of democratic finance. I have never heard him approve any such hopes in the past as have been hold out; and, as regards finance, I do not think any great revolution has taken place in the opinions of the right hon. Gentleman. As regards other matters, we know that the right
    1322
    hon. Gentleman stands in no terror of his past speeches. They are impalpable; they are spectres which do not affright him because we cannot lay hold of them, and, what is more, they cannot lay hold of him. But, as regards finance, I believe the right hon. Gentleman still holds fast to those principles which have given him so glorious a name in the financial annals of his country. Hon. Gentlemen opposite may say that they will redeem the pledges they gave for the seats they won by the card-trick; but that while it is extremely difficult to adopt ad valorem duties, they will get the Government to diminish the present inequalities. Too late! Ministers have tied their hands, because under the Home Rule Bill these duties are pledged to hon. Members below the Gangway. The one task was too difficult to perform, and the other cannot well be discharged without diminishing the contribution which Ireland ought to pay to the Imperial Exchequer. I commend the consideration of the present state of things not only to hon. Members below the Gangway, but to The Financial Reform Almanack, which expected so much but obtains nothing but this miserable Budget. The right hon. Gentleman says, "I have no time"——
    MR. MAC NEILL: Your friends!
    An hon. MEMBER: Obstruction.
    *MR. GOSCHEN: I will tell hon. Members why the Chancellor of the Exchequer has no time. The Government have no time, because they prefer the destruction of the Constitution to financial reform. Perhaps some little hope may be held out with regard to the great question of ad valorem duties, but let working men understand that a reform of finance is being postponed to Home Rule. That is perfectly clear. The right hon. Gentleman says he has no time, and I acquit him entirely of blame. I know from my own experience that Chancellors of the Exchequer are deeply disappointed if scope is not allowed them by their Colleagues, and the right hon. Gentleman has my profound sympathy. But, apart from the Home Rule Question, the Government have preferred to bring in a number of Bills which it is doubtful if they ever intend to pass. Financial reform is part of the Newcastle Pro gramme. Registration, the Local Veto, and other Bills are put before it—not

    1323
    only is it put in the last place, but it is relegated altogether to another year. Bills can be dropped at any time, but Budgets are extremely difficult to drop; therefore the Government prefer great exhibition Bills to practical attempts at financial reform. How does the right hon. Gentleman meet his deficit of £1,500,000? He borrows the latest modern automatic invention: he puts a penny in the slot, and the thing is done. It is so very simple, but possibly it is also unjust. The right hon. Gentleman says he has no other alternative, and he quotes the precedents of past Budgets, including those of Mr. Childers, in which the Income Tax was raised alone. But he stopped short at 1885. I ventured to interpose, and said that I had never raised the Income Tax alone or at all during my term of Office. I acknowledge this with the greatest frankness—that it is extremely difficult to find new taxes. My finance has been called "flabby and shabby" by the right hon. Gentleman and his friends; but, at all events, I have not shrunk from the most unpopular and most difficult task of endeavouring to broaden our financial system by the introduction of certain new taxes. I proposed the Estate Duty, and was nearly devoured by the elder sons in this House. I increased the Succession Duty. I put an additional tax on beer and spirits, and was almost devoured by the brewers and the publicans. But, at all events, I did what I believed to be my duty, because I thought the principle ought to be established that the Chancellor of the Exchequer should not rush at the first moment to the Income Tax, regardless of anything else. The right hon. Gentleman simply gets his millions by this proposal. I look on the Income Tax from two points of view. I look on it as a great reserve, and I look upon it as a tax to which recourse must only be had in any great or sudden emergency. I am unwilling to have recourse to it at other times. I know that it is simple, as the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, and I agree with him when he said it is better to get the money in this simple way than to adopt new expedients. I agree with him, so far, that it is easier for himself and the House of Commons, to impose this tax. It is less likely that there will be an agitation out-of-
    1324
    doors than it would be if a fresh tax were adopted. Income Tax payers are not organised as the brewers and other interests are; they have not the same direct means of bringing pressure to bear upon the House; and, therefore, it behaves the House to become specially the guardians of the Income Tax payers, and to see that recourse is not had to them on every small occasion—to meet an ordinary deficit, and not on an emergency. The right hon. Gentleman put before us a very interesting argument as to the increase of the wealth of the country. Having made wealth, as it were, the substratum of his argument for the purpose of obtaining this 1d. on the Income Tax, he imposes a tax which falls with peculiar hardship upon people with incomes of about £400 a year— the struggling class of bank clerks, small tradesmen, and embarrassed farmers. This appeal to the increase of general wealth will bring small comfort to this class when the Income Tax collector calls on them for an extra penny next Christmas. Do not let the Committee run away with the idea that a few pounds, or a few shillings even, are not of importance to these men. This is a class which deserves special consideration, and it is to this class that I extended special consideration when I dealt with the House Duty. They would have felt the benefit of that reduction but for the extravagant ambition of the County Council, which presses most on the poorest class of ratepayers. Is it fair to rush to the Income Tax at once, and leave out of sight who are the men who have to pay? Their means are often so adjusted to their expenditure that a few pounds make a difference of some little pleasures or some little luxuries which brighten their very dreary lives. They are men and women who particularly deserve our consideration, and I protest against the idea that either from want of time or from want of financial resource you should, as I think, commit the error of seizing on a great engine of national reserve, and at the same time of taxing a class of the community already as heavily taxed, perhaps more heavily taxed, than any other class. But what does the right hon. Gentleman say? It is only, he hopes, for a year. I truly hope that it may be so. Next year, as I understand, the right hon. Gentleman proposes to deal with the

    1325
    Death Duties, and to find other financial resources. But where will the right hon. Gentleman be this time next year? This is the year when he has had the chance. Next year he may be addressing his constituents. [Cries of "Oh!"] Yes; I think it is highly probable we may be engaged this time next year upon a third edition of the Home Rule Bill. There may have been a Dissolution, and the right hon. Gentleman may, as I say, at this time next year be engaged in thinking, not how to meet the ad valorem views of the labouring classes, or of adjusting the difficulties of the Death Duties, but he may be engaged in the difficult task of endeavouring to persuade the electors with regard to the third Home Rule Bill. Sir, the case is clear. Financial reform is to be sacrificed to tinkering with the Constitution as regards registration, and as regards Home Rule and other matters. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer has been sacrificed to the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and the British Income Tax payers have been sacrificed to the Nationalist Irishmen. I can only say, in conclusion, as I said at the beginning, that under the circumstances I offer to my successor my most profound expression of commiseration.
    *SIR J. LUBBOCKsaid, he concurred in congratulating the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the fact that he had not proposed to cover the deficit by borrowing or suspending the Sinking Fund, but he regretted that the right hon. Gentleman had not dealt with the situation in a different manner. The right hon. Gentleman had told them that there were only two economists left in the House—the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister and himself; and he had stated that he was doing his utmost in the House to resist all attempts to increase Expenditure. He hoped the right ton. Gentleman would not confine his efforts to this House, but would also do what he could in Downing Street, for it was sometimes more difficult for a Chancellor of the Exchequer to resist the claims of his own Colleagues than to resist proposals in the House. The Prime Minister in 1884 told them that he could—
    "Never belong to a Government which did not on every occasion seek to enlarge its resources by wise economy."
    1326
    He very much wished the right hon. Gentleman had carried out that admirable sentiment on this occasion; but instead of doing so, in his first year of Office he proposed a large addition to the Expenditure of the country. He admitted that the main items of increase were unavoidable in themselves, but at the same time he wished they had been met by economies in other directions. They found themselves at the present moment in an abnormal position, for some of the taxes were being collected without Parliamentary sanction. He made no complaint, because he knew that it was impossible to do without a certain interregnum, but he trusted that the Government would endeavour to make that interval as short as possible. While approving of the course the Government had taken in proposing additional taxation, he could not agree in the method they had proposed. No doubt, as the late Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, there were strong arguments in favour of the Government making additions to the Income Tax. It was an easy and a simple matter, and saved trouble both to the Government and the House, but they would all agree that to increase the Income Tax in time of peace was a very serious matter. He represented a constituency which was pressed almost more than any other by an increase in the Income Tax. The Income Tax was really to a great extent a tax upon brains, and fell upon the medical profession, schoolmasters, lawyers, &c., more heavily than on those whose income was derived from Consols or other investments. He admitted that the arguments against any change in the assessment of the tax were so strong as to be almost insuperable, but that fact was a grave reason against any increase of the tax except in a case of real necessity. The Prime Minister in 1874 appealed to the country to enable him to abolish the tax. He said—
    "According to the older financial tradition the Income Tax was a war tax. For such a purpose it is invaluable. Men are willing to sacrifice much, not only of their means, but of their privacy, time, and comfort at the call of patriotism."
    But the right hon. Gentleman pointed out that these circumstances did not then exist, nor do they now. He stated that he contemplated the total repeal of the tax, and he added—

    1327
    "I do not hesitate to affirm that an effort should now be made to attain this advantage."
    Why did the right hon. Gentleman advocate the total abolition of the tax at that time? The right hon. Gentleman thought at that time that the tax was one of the very worst, and yet he now, for a comparatively small sum, was taking steps to increase it. He (Sir John Lubbock) would not enlarge on that argument, for it had already been so ably and so clearly stated by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. But he wished to press on the Committee an argument of a somewhat different character, which made it inadvisable that they should meet the increased Expenditure by an increase of the Income Tax. He was not one of those who thought the Home Rule Bill would become law, but hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway were of a different opinion. They thought that the Bill would be carried to a successful termination, and, therefore, he submitted they were bound to act upon the hypothesis that it would be passed. They found themselves face to face with an increased Expenditure of something over £1,000,000 a year; and they could not flatter themselves with the slightest hope that that increase was likely to be only temporary. In fact, nobody could have listened to the interesting speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer without feeling that, so far from there being a diminution next year, they were only too likely to find themselves face to face with a still further increase. In these circumstances, he proposed to move as an Amendment to the proposal before the Committee—
    "That, having regard to the provision of the Government of Ireland Bill, under which the produce of the Income Tax collected in Ireland is devoted to Irish local purposes, it is inexpedient to provide for increased Imperial charges by taxation to which, if the Government of Ireland Bill should become law, Ireland will contribute no part, and the whole burden of which would fall on England and Scotland."
    *THE CHAIRMAN: I must call the right hon. Baronet's attention to the fact that he is proposing to move an Abstract Resolution, which would be out of Order in Committee of Ways and Means; but, as has already been explained to him, it is competent to him to move to reduce the sum in the Income Tax Resolution.
    SIR J. LUBBOCKsaid, he would amend his proposal to meet the view expressed by the Chairman, and would
    1328
    move to omit the 7d. for the Income Tax and substitute 6d., which would really come to the same thing as the Motion he had put on the Paper. The Committee would remember that the Income Tax was one of the items allocated under the Government of Ireland Bill to Irish local expenditure. It followed, therefore, that if that Bill became law Ireland's share of the tax would be no longer available for Imperial Expenditure, and it would be necessary to impose further taxation in order to make up the amount. The Chancellor of the Exchequer might ask, if objection was taken to the proposal he had put before the Committee, what alternative was suggested. But if he did he would not probably expect an answer, for it was not for a private Member to suggest an alternative in a ease of that kind; but he would say, in the first place, that out of an Expenditure of over £90,000,000 in a time of profound peace probably some economies might be effected which would render it unnecessary to have recourse to the Income Tax. But if he admitted that there were difficulties in the way he could not but ask himself whose fault was it? The Government had created the difficulty for themselves. What are the principal sources of revenue? They were Customs, Excise, Stamps, Laud Tax, House Duty, Income Tax, Post Office and Telegraph Service, Crown Lauds, and Miscellaneous Receipts. The Miscellaneous Receipts, Crown Lands, Post Office and Telegraph Services were more or less automatic, and any increase by alteration of rates or charges was out of the question. In the present depressed state of agriculture no one would suggest any addition to the Land Tax. Then he came to the Death Duties. An alteration in the Death Duties had been promised over and over again to the House, but a re-arrangement of those duties had been postponed year after year. The subject was surrounded by peculiar and exceptional circumstances; but if his right hon. Friend next year did really re-arrange with the Death Duties, the additional taxation would be open to the same objection, because the Death Duties would go to the Irish Local Exchequer. Of course, the same objection applied also to the large revenue derived from Stamps. Then he came to

    1329
    the question of Excise. The Prime Minister had said that if we required any great sum for any national emergency, such as a sum of £20,000,000, it could be obtained by an addition of 2s. 6d. per gallon to the Spirit Duty. He did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman adhered to that statement; but an addition of 10s. per gallon to the duty did not produce more than,£20,000,000, and, therefore, an addition of 2s. 6d. would not produce more than a fourth of the amount stated by the right hon. Gentleman. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not agree with the Prime Minister in that respect. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said that the Spirit Revenue was a falling revenue, and, so far from being able to raise £20,000,000 upon spirits, they could not even raise the £1,500,000 which was required. At the close of his speech the right hon. Gentleman went on to say that the knell of indirect taxation had been rung, and that, therefore, it could not be increased. Now, he would like to ask who was it who had rendered any increase of indirect taxation impossible? However it might have come about, it was rather remarkable that they should in this country be asked to rely for their contribution from Ireland entirely on the source of revenue—Customs—which the Chancellor of the Exchequer said was practically dead. The position in which they found themselves was a very difficult one, but whose fault was it? He maintained, and he asked the Committee to say, that they were bound to meet Imperial Expenditure by taxation which would fall fairly upon the Three Kingdoms. He had seen it stated that there was no necessity or justification for his Amendment, because they were dealing only with the question of a year, but the Expenditure they were considering was not a temporary Expenditure, not an Expenditure which would cease with the year; on the contrary, it was an Expenditure which was growing, and, so far from being less, it would probably be larger when they came to another year. If, then, the Expenditure was to be permanent, it ought to be provided for in a permanent manner. The Chancellor of the Exchequer would not, he felt sure, say that he intended to provide for that Expenditure next year by an increase in
    1330
    the Customs Duties, and there was no reason for supposing that the reasons he had given against taking such a course now would be any less cogent then. He therefore submitted to the Committee that if they agreed to this taxation now they imposed permanently the whole burden of the increased Expenditure on the people of Great Britain. The fact was, that the Home Rule Bill, which insidiously professed to be only a Bill for the better government of Ireland, as they saw at the present moment by the present Budget, really did fundamentally affect the finances of the year and deprived the House of freedom in dealing with its own finances. At any rate, the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman was most | unjust to the people of England and Scotland. If the House adopted it Ireland would, under the Home Rule Bill, contribute absolutely nothing to this increased Expenditure. It was no question of 1–15th or 1–17th or l–25th. If they passed the Resolution as it stood, then the increased taxation of the year with which they found themselves face to face would fall entirely upon England, and Ireland would contribute absolutely nothing at all. This was obviously most unjust and most improvident to the people of this country, and he therefore recorded his solemn protest against it. As the Chairman had held that he could not move the Amendment in the exact form in which he had placed it on the Paper, he would move—for the reason that this increase of taxation after next year would fall entirely on the people of England and Scotland, and that there was no reason to believe that it would be otherwise than permanent— to substitute 6d. for 7d. in the Budget Resolution.
    Amendment proposed, in line 10, to leave out the word "seven," in order to insert the word "six."—[Sir John Lubbock.)
    Question proposed, "That the word 'seven' stand part of the Question."
    SIR W. HARCOURT: I desire to interpose here to reply to my right hon. Friend who has raised a special point as to Ireland, and, if possible, to dispose of that point apart from the general discussion of the question. I understand that my right hon. Friend desires to introduce Home Rule finance into the Budget of

    1331
    the year. I suppose we shall have Home Rule introduced into everything. I do not complain of that; but I wish to show that upon this occasion there is no foundation for the introduction of the Home Rule Bill. I will not take the point, which in itself is conclusive, that nothing which can take place under the Home Rule Bill can possibly affect the financial arrangements of this year. That is a pretty obvious and conclusive point, but I will meet my right hon. Friend on the substance of his allegation. He says, "You have an additional expenditure of £1,100,000, and you are raising a tax to which Ireland will contribute nothing." If he will only address his attention to the facts of the case, he will find that there is no foundation for his statement at all. Let me see what the additional expenditure consists of—Education, about £350,000; Postal Charges, £450,000; Inland Revenue Charges, £70,000; leaving for Imperial Charges, apart from those which are local charges, a sum which appears to be £230,000, but which would probably be £157,000, but that is not material to my argument. So that out of that sum of £1,100,000 nearly £900,000 are local and not Imperial Charges. What would happen in that case? So far as those local charges belong to Ireland, Ireland would be the creditor; so far as there is additional charge for education in Ireland, Ireland will defray it, and nothing will fall upon England; Be far as postal charges are increased, Ireland will defray them, and nothing will fall upon England; and so far as the Inland Revenue Charges are concerned, the same conditions arise. What you have really got to deal with is £150,000, Ireland's share in that matter. Ireland's share of that at 4 per cent. would be £5,000, and that is the whole question on which my right hot). Friend is proposing to attack the provisions of the Budget. That is the utmost, out of this £1,100,000, to which, under any circumstances, the contribution of Ireland to the Imperial Exchequer is involved. There is an old maxim, "De minimis non curat lex." No one who has observed the course which has been taken in regard to Ireland will think that the loss of £6,000 upon that account, as compared with the increased Expenditure, from year to year, is any great matter. That is the whole of the argument of my
    1332
    right hon. Friend. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said, "The Home Rule Bill will so tie you up that you could not possibly reduce the Customs Duty." "Why not?" he said; "because it would diminish the contribution of Ireland to the Imperial Exchequer." So it would now if you reduce the Customs. If you reduced the Tea Duty 1d., of course England would contribute less to the Exchequer from the Tea Duty than Ireland. That fallacy which has been doing duty all over the country as to our being tied up by the Home Rule Bill is really the shallowest fallacy I have heard. What is the contribution of Ireland to England now? It is the difference between what you receive from Ireland and what you spend upon Ireland. Supposing you reduce the Customs Duties, the contribution from Ireland is less. It does not make the smallest difference, if you reduce the Customs Duties as regards the Irish contribution, from what would happen if you reduced them under present circumstances, and that is the extent of the grievance the right hon. Gentleman has raised upon this question of the £1,100,000. My right hon. Friend said I might ask him if he did not increase the Income Tax, what tax he would propose, and he very discreetly declined to answer that question. I observed also that the right hon. Gentleman opposite carefully abstained from any suggestion of the kind. He made a very eloquent denunciation of the Income Tax. Well, Sir, it is very easy to make an eloquent denunciation of any tax. The right hon. Gentleman opposite took great credit for his courage in the proposal of various taxes. Some of those proposals were not fortunate, and some did not succeed. Our ancestors, with much smaller resources and smaller population, devoted £28,000,000 to the reduction of the Debt, while we, with our increased resources and population, devote only £25,000,000 to that purpose. I do not, however, want to go back on that controversy. The right hon. Gentleman made a very ingenious and able Party attack on the Budget. I do not complain of that at all. It is his business to do so. It was the part he had to play, and he played it very well. He had a certain card up his sleeve, which I heard of for the first time. ["Oh!"] That may astonish hon. Gentlemen, but

    1333
    they seem to be better acquainted with that card than I am. The right hon. Gentleman said very properly that I was a student of his speeches, but unfortunately those portions of his speeches which dealt with the card have passed from my memory. Well, I will try to speak by the card, though I can only imperfectly gather what this portentous card said. It appears from the representation of the right hon. Gentleman to have demanded the redress of certain inequalities in taxation, and I understand that the right hon. Gentleman admits that those inequalities exist. If so, it proves to have been a true card—I might say a correct card—and, it seems to me, a card which reads a very important lesson and deserves attention, in order that those inequalities may be examined and redressed in future. After the attention which the right hon. Gentleman has bestowed on the card, I will also study it carefully and do what I can to give redress to the inequalities which it sets forth.
    MR. GOSCHEN: The right hon. Gentleman does not suggest that I said that there were inequalities? The card itself suggested an injustice.
    SIR W. HARCOURT: I hope the right hon. Gentleman will let me have a copy of the card, and I will form my own opinion on it. I certainly gathered from him that he did not dispute the accuracy of the card, and, therefore, if the card is a true card, we ought to correct the evils it sets forth. The right hon. Gentleman also said, with reference to the Income Tax, what was perfectly true—namely, that it falls with considerable weight upon persons to whom it is a serious burden. But, unfortunately, that is true of all taxes. In the controversies which have taken place between the right hon. Gentleman and myself, I have made the statement, which I believe to be absolutely correct, that the tendency of the right hon. Gentleman's finance was to relieve direct taxation at the expense of indirect taxation. I have had the figures worked out as regards the proportion of direct to indirect taxes in various years. In 1886–7, before the right hon. Gentleman's advent to the Treasury, the proportion of indirect taxes was 54·4 per cent., against 45·5 per cent. of direct taxes. But in 1890–1 the figures were:— Indirect taxes, 55·9 per cent., against
    1334
    44 per cent. of direct taxes. The House will, therefore, see that, in a sensible degree, the right hon. Gentleman had reduced direct taxation in almost exactly the same proportion as he had increased the amount of indirect taxation; and if the proposals which the Government now make with reference to the Income Tax are approved, it is remarkable that we shall have exactly returned to the proportions between direct and indirect taxation which existed before the right hon. Gentleman started, because the figures will be 54·7 per cent. of indirect taxes, against 45·2 per cent. of direct taxes. I referred in my Budget speech on Monday to the fact that the knell of indirect taxation was rung in 1885 by the proposal which the right hon. Member for Bristol (Sir M. Hicks-Beach) then carried for increasing the Income Tax to 8d. The reason then stated—for that change was that the weight of direct taxation was out of all proportion when compared with the great weight of indirect taxation, and if that were true at that time it is still more true in the present position of taxation. That is the reason—the important reason—which has led us to make no proposal for increasing the indirect taxation of the country. We believe that the proportion of indirect taxation to direct taxation is greater when it ought to be loss, and that is a very important consideration in dealing with the relative taxation as it falls on different classes of the community. I do not exactly understand what the right hon. Gentleman meant when he said that the sting of the card was in its tail. Did he mean that he, as well as the right hon. Member for the London University (Sir John Lubbock), would refuse to make provision for the Debt, and is he prepared to take the responsibility for such a refusal? I should imagine that the right hon. Member for the London University is not a man to leave the Debt uncovered, and I should like to know what his ideas on the subject really are. Do those two right hon. Gentlemen refuse to put 1d. of this charge on direct taxation, and, having increased the proportion of indirect taxation compared with direct taxation during the last Parliament, do they desire to continue the same practice and to place the additional burden of the additional expenditure,

    1335
    in the present case, not on direct, but on indirect taxation? That is a question which we are entitled to ask; and if we are to have a Division on the subject, we desire to know whether the increased Expenditure which has led to the deficit is, or is not, to be met by increasing the Income Tax? If it is not, the only conclusion we can come to is that they are prepared to throw the whole weight of this burden on indirect taxation. I think we are entitled to some statement upon this point, and we shall then know where we are and how to proceed.
    SIR J. GORST: The Chancellor of the Exchequer is a perfect master of financial assertion, but I confess I was rather astonished to hear even him state that my right hon. Friend the late Chancellor of the Exchequer disturbed the proportion of indirect and direct taxation in favour of direct taxation by increasing the amount of indirect taxes and decreasing the amount of direct taxes. So far as my right hon. Friend disturbed the proportion of those two taxes, the effect was exactly the opposite. He imposed Estate Duties, and increased the Succession Duties, which tended to, and had the effect of, increasing direct taxation, and he took 2d. off the Tea Duty, which tended to and had the effect of decreasing indirect taxation. Therefore, as far as the action of my right hon. Friend went, it tended in a directly opposite direction to that which the Chancellor of the Exchequer has just asserted. What did, in fact, take place during the late Parliament was that the produce of indirect taxation grew, while that from direct taxation declined; and to the increase in the one, notwithstanding the reduction in the Tea Duty, and the decrease in the other, notwithstanding the increase in the Succession Duties, is attributable the alteration in the proportions between the two taxes. I am also very surprised at so extremely acute a debater as the Chancellor of the Exchequer misunderstanding the point about the card. Successive Liberal Administrations, as well as successive Conservative Administrations, have continued to levy a uniform tax upon tea and tobacco, which has had the effect of making the poor man pay more than the rich man for tea and tobacco; but these Administrations imposed that uni-
    1336
    form tax on tea and tobacco because it passes the wit of the financial advisers of the Government and of the Inland Revenue Authorities to devise any workable scheme by which an ad valorem duty could with advantage to the State be imposed.
    MR. W. E. GLADSTONE: It was tried in vain.
    SIR JOHN GORST: As the right hon. Gentleman says, it was tried and tried in vain. It cannot be done. But what happened at the last Election? Certain financial authorities who followed the right hon. Gentleman took upon themselves to tell the electors that the placing of a higher duty on the poor man's tea and tobacco than on the rich man's tea and tobacco was one of the monstrous iniquities of the late Government, and that if they would only displace the late Government and put the right hon. Gentleman opposite and his friends in Office this monstrous iniquity would be forthwith redressed. The point of the case, therefore, is that having displaced the late Government, and having put the present Government in Office, this monstrous injustice, on which hon. Gentlemen opposite enlarged so eloquently to the electorate during the General Election, remains unredressed, and the Prime Minister, the greatest financial authority in the country, tells us its redress has been vainly tried and cannot be carried out. I hope the Committee and people out-of-doors will note the moral of the present discussion, and, next time an attempt is made to impose upon people by these monstrous and unfounded assertions, will remember that the promises and assurances made to them at the last General Election cannot be carried out, and, consequently, will resolve not to be so easily led away the next time such promises are made to them.
    *MR. COURTNEYsaid, that his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer complained that the subject of Home Rule had been imported into the Debate. He was afraid that spectre would turn up very often. It was impossible for any person, as it had been impossible for the Chancellor of the Exchequer himself, to keep out of his mind, in the consideration of the present Budget, the proposed financial arrangements for Ireland which were contemplated to come into force

    1337
    next year under Home Rule, and which would dislocate altogether our present financial system. He did not propose to continue the discussion on the card trick. How much use had been made of it at the General Election he did not know. Some hon. Members on the Ministerial side, in whoso favour it was used, seemed disposed now to disavow the card trick. But, however that might be, The Star newspaper, which had a keen eye for electioneering action and facts, said this particular card had done a great deal for the Party now in power. The point on which he wished to insist was that it was a vulgar appeal to the mind of vulgar and ignorant people to take the incidence of one tax by itself and say whether that was or was not unjust. It was perfectly true that the poor man's tea and tobacco were taxed to a greater degree than the rich man's tea and tobacco; but to say, therefore, that the poor man was more heavily taxed than the rich man, passing over a hundred considerations that ought to be taken into account, was simply an appeal to ignorance, and was a most corrupt and improper method of seeking the suffrages of the electors. The man who made the appeal must be equally ignorant himself, or something worse. He rose, however, for the purpose of offering some sympathetic criticism to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who found himself in a position of considerable difficulty. He rejoiced that his right hon. Friend was able to claim that he was one of the economists. He could remember a time when the economic ardour of his right hon. Friend was not so manifest. He remembered a time when the Treasury was the object of his right hon. Friend's special abhorrence, and when he viewed the economic action of that Department as the fatal machinery which brought to confusion every Government. He had remembrance of a time when his right hon. Friend was scarcely on speaking terms with the representatives of the Treasury, when he was for judicious expenditure and not for judicious retrenchment. It did not happen in his own time. He was not recalling an old personal sorrow. A little experience of the Treasury had had a curious effect upon the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and also upon the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington. Those
    1338
    distinguished Members of the House, each in his turn, were in favour of a generous system of finance. Each seemed to be of opinion that not petty economy, but generous expenditure, would gain the support of the people. Each of them went to the Treasury. The noble Lord sacrificed his Office and almost his career in the strenuous resistance to increased expenditure, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer was another example of conversion brought about by that powerful Office. The irony of the situation was indeed complete. His right hon. Friend now found himself not only a disciple of economy, but also found him proposing an additional 1d. on Income Tax. He remembered his right hon. Friend taking the chair at a public meeting for the abolition of the Income Tax. It happened a good many years ago, he admitted; but he still remembered the strong language in which his right hon. Friend denounced the iniquity of that impost, its interference with trade, its injustice, and many other accusations. All this, he ventured to submit, suggested one lesson in the way of good economy for his right hon. Friend at the head of the Government. It was said that they ought to put into the Exchequer a man of an economical turn of mind. The lesson the experiences of his right hon. Friend taught was that they must do nothing of the kind. On the contrary, if they found a Member of the Government inclined to favour generous expenditure let them put him in the Exchequer and he would soon grow out of that opinion, and would exercise a strong influence over his Colleagues. That was the true way to secure economy and efficiency in the Administration. There was another lesson which might be derived from the Budget speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If they wanted to be really economical and to pervade with a spirit of economy the whole Administration of the country, they had better not indulge in too optimistic a view of the financial condition of the country. There was, he thought, in the speech of his right hon. Friend too optimistic a view of the actual situation. They were face to face with a declining Revenue. They were on the downward grade. Now, a country could go on in prosperity long after the springs of prosperity had themselves become weakened, because it had had in

    1339
    former years a large surplus of savings over expenditure, and the surplus might remain though the prosperity itself was declining. The surplus of income would not go all at once, and it was a delusion to appeal to the circumstance that we were still saving something as a proof of prosperity. The facts to which his right hon. Friend referred as showing that they were still in a good situation were quite consistent with a real apprehension that they were not in a good financial condition. His right hon. Friend at the head of the Government would remember perfectly well how he took occasion in making a Financial Statement, now some 25 years ago, to draw attention to the analysis of our commercial and industrial position as dependent upon the relative ease of working of the coalfields of this country, made about that time by Professor Jevons. There were those who thought that the forecast of Professor Jevons had been discredited by experience [Sir W. HARCOURT: Hear, hear!] His right hon. Friend seemed to be of that opinion, but he had, perhaps, better consult his chief; for he believed the Prime Minister did not share the view that the anticipations of Professor Jevons could be discredited. So far from having been discredited, Professor Jevons' anticipations had been entirely fulfilled. The competition we were meeting with from the rest of the world had had the effect of bringing about the arrest of prosperity which Professor Jevons had predicted, and a falling-off in the increase of our activity in almost mathematical correspondence with his prophecy. That was the situation now. If they looked at the Returns of the Income Tax Assessments, to which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had paid the greatest attention, it would be seen that they did not exhibit a growth in industrial, prosperity, but rather a decline. That was admitted so far as Schedule A was concerned. It was admitted to be still more manifest with respect to the assessments under Schedule B. "But," said the Chancellor of the Exchequer, "Schedule D shows an increase"; but over one-half of its assessment dealt with incomes from property rather than from incomes resulting from industry and from professional employment. It included receipts from mines, canals, railways, and Colonial investments, and other sources which, in fact, arose from accumulated
    1340
    savings. If they looked to the portion of Schedule D which was strictly confined to the assessment of trading and professional incomes, they would not find an increase there, or, if they found any increase at all, it would be an extremely small one, oven where it was found it was a declining increase. The situation was a serious one, inasmuch as they were face to face with increasing expenditure, with the springs of industry, which, if they were not so far weakened as to deprive the country of surpluses, were so far weakened as to give declining surpluses. Therefore, it had become necessary that the strictest attention should be paid to economy in Expenditure. The apparent increase in our Expenditure which had been going on in recent years did not represent the actual increase. Whatever they might find to be the cause of the phenomenon—and as to that a great deal could be said on both sides—everyone admitted that during the last 20 years prices had fallen from 20 to 30 per cent., so that, so far as the expenditure of the country upon raw material and purchase of stores for the different Services was concerned, it implied a larger expenditure. His right hon. Friend had been casting about to meet a still greater deficiency next year, and he intimated that if it had not been for considerations of time he would have preferred an augmentation of the Death Duties to an augmentation of the Income Tax. He could not altogether agree with that proposition, and would put in a little demurrer or caveat to the assumption that that augmentation was to be preferred. Some financiers had said that the great charm of indirect taxation was that it was imposed without being recognised—that a good deal of money could be obtained without the taxpayer knowing that he was paying. But he did not suppose anyone on the Front Ministerial Bench agreed with that cynical maxim. They would consider it a drawback in the case of indirect taxation if the taxpayer did not appreciate the fact that he was making a contribution towards the Expenditure of the country. The same argument applied—and applied with greater force—in the case of the Death Duty. Who did pay the Death Duty? Some people said the man who was dead. If that were so, he, at least, did not appreciate the fact that it was being paid. A man could have no motive for

    1341
    economy in knowing that at his death such and such a sum would be taken from his estate. Nor did those who received money subject to the Succession Duties appreciate the fact that they were suffering or being mulcted or contributing to the Expenditure of the country. The tax was not viewed with that acute personal apprehension with which other forms of direct taxation were regarded. It was, in fact, an abstraction from the capital of the country, and the survivor did not feel under any obligation to make it up out of his income by diminishing his expenditure. On the ground that the Death Duties were taken out of the capital of the country for current Expenditure, there was much to be said against a. great enlargement of the Revenue from those duties as compared with the Income Tax. If the appreciation of what he was called upon to pay led the taxpayer to exercise an influence over the Expenditure of the country, then let that expenditure be brought home to him as directly as possible. If they wished to evade the knowledge and the consequent influence of the taxpayer, then they might resort to indirect taxation. They received a not altogether ridiculous sum at present from the Death Duties. They levied from them £8,000,000, a fair proportion of the Revenue of the country. He had risen for the purpose of pointing out that the present situation was one which required very grave and serious attention, and that they ought not to indulge in any optimistic expectations. It was pleasant for hon. Members of the House who did not wish to see a heavy increase of taxation to hear the optimistic views of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and he (Mr. Courtney) made these observations by way of demurrer against the view that the policy of increasing the Death Duties was one which should receive unreserved approval. He would add one word in favour of keeping up a due proportion of indirect taxation. He could not accept the policy of a free breakfast table, unless they had some system of direct taxation, which would be brought home to the less wealthy taxpayers. The Prime Minister had on one occasion spoken of his polygamous attachment to the two handmaids — direct and indirect taxation.
    MR. W. E. GLADSTONE: Bigamous union.
    MR. COURTNEYsaid, however immoral might be the suggestion involved in this description, he was glad to know that the right hon. Gentleman had an abiding respect for these two handmaids.
    MR. W. E. GLADSTONE: Hear, hear!
    *MR. COURTNEYsaid, that indirect taxation must not be neglected, though direct taxation might probably be, to a large extent, our mainstay in the future. He protested against the deduction drawn from the action of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Bristol (Sir M. Hicks-Beach), that any chance of modifying our system of indirect taxation in the future was altogether lost. The scheme of the Budget of 1885 was a fair and honest attempt to secure a due contribution to the Expenditure of the country from both streams of taxation, and it was defeated by a combination which could not be looked back upon with pleasure, and the remembrance of which was, perhaps, not agreeable to either Party. But he demurred to the view of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the dictum laid down by his predecessor was something that should guide his conduct in the future. It was one of the greatest tasks which a Chancellor of the Exchequer could undertake that he should be able to devise some automatic method of levying direct and indirect taxation together, so that there should be the least disturbance of trade.
    SIR W. HARCOURTsaid, he had not expressed any opinion against indirect taxation; but he had quoted the right hon. Gentleman to show that it did not lie in the mouth of the Party opposite to complain of direct taxation.
    MR. COURTNEYwas glad to have elicited that explanation, and to learn that the right hon. Gentleman considered he had both streams of taxation in reserve.
    SIR W. HARCOURT: Especially with regard to liquor.
    *MR. COURTNEYsaid, he did not overlook the liquor revenue, but the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that was declining. The economic future of this country was a matter of the gravest character, especially as with a declining trade and Revenue they had to meet increased Expenditure. English literature had recently been enriched by a volume, the offering of an intellect nurtured at Oxford, but ripened amid

    1343
    Southern Seas. It depicted the superior races confined in the future to the Temperate Zones if the Mongolians did not oust them from possession; with growing hindrances to the international migration of labour; with an ever enlarging State organisation of industry. Poetic inspiration, personal ambition, individual distinction would dwindle and disappear. The picture was not exhilarating, but it was qualified by the promise of material comfort and material prosperity. But that qualification might be offered at the Antipodes with their large reserves of unoccupied and undeveloped resources. What was the prospect here, with a teeming population ever pressing on the margin of existence? The difficulties of the future at home were such that our present experiences must seem trivial. It was looking forward to the future, and seeing how the prophecies to which he referred at the commencement of his observations had practically been reaching their fulfilment, and seeing also how, with our crowded population, we should have tremendous problems to grapple with hereafter, that he strenuously urged on all those who had anything to do with the finances of the country the necessity of economy, and of bringing home to every taxpayer the effects of that Expenditure by making the organisation in respect to taxation such as to check further drains on our resources, which at present were threatened with very serious and growing demands.
    MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSENsaid, that, as he represented a constituency in the main agricultural, he should like to be allowed to say a few words on this financial question. They would be few words, because he felt he should not be justified in taking up the time of the House with the expression of views which, though he believed they were entertained more widely than was generally supposed, did not very often find open expression. However that might be, he conceived it to be the duty of every agricultural Member sitting on the Opposition side of the House to take this opportunity—and, indeed, every opportunity that might offer itself—of bringing before the notice of the agriculturists of the country, and more especially of the agricultural labourers, the way in which for the second time they had been outwitted, juggled, and deceived by the promises of the
    1344
    Party opposite. He could not help a feeling something akin to pity for hon. Members opposite when he saw the humiliation they were exposed to day by day. He would commend to them the study of their own extra-Parliamentary speeches and election addresses—he meant, of course, those of them who had addressed almost exclusively agricultural constituencies. He had no hesitation in saying that at the last General Election dozens of seats were won by Gladstonian Liberals because they were able to make the labourers believe in numberless unscrupulous misrepresentations directed against the Conservative Party, and in abundant promises as to what the Gladstonian Liberals would do if only they were returned to power. Of these misrepresentations, although he suffered through them as much—perhaps more— than any other hon. Member of the House, he wished to say nothing now. He preferred to let bygones be bygones. But as to the promises made, how had they been redeemed? How had the Government dealt with the interests of agriculture? Let the Budget answer that question. They had, in time of peace, imposed a tax, or increased a tax, which they knew would prove a special hardship on the agricultural class, which, unless the Government's own utterances were dishonest, they professed to believe more deserving of relief than any other. It was said that there was to be an inquiry—an inquiry into what? Into something which was thoroughly well known. Surely the Government did not think that this device would succeed—and that they would he able to cajole the constituencies a second time. He should be out of Order in saying more on this matter than that he could not think that the inquiry was seriously intended. Had they no means of meeting this deficit of £1,500,000 than by the imposition of 1d. on the Income Tax? Yes; they had a remedy at their hand. They had a remedy at their doors which would not only meet the deficit, but provide them with a surplus, and not only revive trade and agriculture, but provide employment for thousands of working men. He believed that a complete revision of our fiscal system in the direction of imposing duties upon foreign imports was the only way in which our trade and agriculture could be rescued from the ruin that was impending. The opinions

    1345
    of the civilised world, as evidenced by their action, were, with the exception of England, on the side of those who believed that the protection of their own industries and their own labour was the first duty of those who loved their country. Protection would come in this country, and he believed that the statesman who took up the question would find an amount of support and sympathy from the country which would astonish both sides of the House. As one of the last of the old Tories, he had made his protest against our fiscal system, and pointed out a remedy to meet the deficit which would be in every way efficacious, and the most effectual that could be devised. He should like to give the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer an opportunity of making a "petty economy" which he might do by making the Income Tax year run from May 6th to May 6th, instead of from April 6th to April 6th. It was clear that the month now current—that was from 6th April last—the collection of the extra 1d. would yield nearly £200,000. The normal monthly value of the 1d. was £150,000, and, May 1st being a specially heavy pay day, the amount would be very little short of that amount. All the payments for dividends, &c. falling due the 1st May wore already made out, and ready to be posted on Saturday, and it would be physically impossible to alter the amount. As an instance, he might say that the Bank of England had about 31,000 distinct warrants ready for issue, and that was only one instance out of many. All that could be done by the issuing houses or those persons charged with the collection of the tax was to refer the Government to the parties owning the dividends, and it would be the duty of the Government to apply to each of these persons, in many cases for a few pence only. There could be no doubt but that the amount thus collected would be very short of that collected through the ordinary channels; and, by making the alteration of date he proposed, a saving probably of £20,000 or £30,000 to the Revenue would be effected. He recommended this to the consideration of the right hon. Gentleman as a "petty economy "worthy of his consideration.
    *MR. BARTLEYdid not wish to revive any point raised about the elections, although he himself was a
    1346
    strong sufferer in some of the cards that were issued. He thought the discussion had been useful as showing that really greater care ought to be taken in the use of language, so as to guard against reckless statements, possibly on both sides. With regard to what the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said respecting the revision of direct and indirect taxation, he would ask the right hon. Gentleman if he would be willing to lay on the Table of the House the document he had read from? He agreed there should be a decided tendency to increase direct rather than indirect taxation, and, at the same time, to keep those two substantial forms of income. What he desired to say a word or two about was the Income Tax. The Budget was the old story, directly a Liberal Government got into power, of increasing the Income Tax. He had on six or seven occasions, in different Sessions, directed attention to the system of taxation by the Income Tax, and the effect it had upon the smaller payers. He ventured to think that if Radical Members realised that the great bulk of the payers of the Income Tax were small people, they would be really more concerned about them than they were at present. He believed the time would come when the case of the small payers of the Income Tax would be regarded with the greatest solicitation by the Radical Party, because they were rapidly becoming one of the largest elements of the Constitution. In Schedule D, which embraced all the industries of this country except agriculture, and a, great proportion of the real workers of this country, he found that of those who paid Income Tax exactly half, or 225,000 persons, paid on incomes of under £200 a year. In addition to that, l–4th more, or 106,000 persons, paid Income Tax upon incomes of from £200 to £300 a year. Therefore, in Schedule D they got the startling fact that half the payers of Income Tax paid upon less than £200, and a quarter of the whole paid upon sums of from £200 to £300 a year. Under the present system a great many even of the working classes wore forced to pay Income Tax, and be had received many letters from members of the working classes on this point. The lower stratum of the Income Tax payers had increased of late years to an enormous extent. The Chancellor of the Exche-

    1347
    quer would doubtless say this was an indication of the growing prosperity of the country. No doubt this increase was an indication of the growing prosperity of the country; but it was important, at the same time, to see not only how this class was growing, but how the Income Tax affected them. In 1874 there were 39,000 persons paying Income Tax under Schedule D on incomes from £200 to £300 a year. In 1889 the number had risen to 106,000. That showed the enormous increase in the number of the small persons who were now brought within the meshes of the Income Tax, and who were going to be specially taxed by this Budget. This Budget affected persons who were not the drones of society, but those who were promoting the industry and the wealth of the country. The number of persons earning from £500 to £1,000 a year was almost stationary; and the number of persons who paid Income Tax on £1,000 and upwards had absolutely decreased during the last few years. This was a healthy symptom in every respect, because the fact showed that the distribution of profits had widely extended. But an enormous portion of the Budget deficiency was now being placed on the shoulders of the struggling classes, many of whom were the best citizens of the State, deriving nothing from the increased expenditure. A difference should be made in the tax as it affected those who were earning their livelihood and those who derived their incomes from spontaneous sources or from capital. In increasing the tax, therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to have taken advantage of the opportunity to make some difference between the taxation of those who had to work for their living, especially in the lower grades, and those who had not. A persons who possessed £200 a year in Consols paid the same amount of Income Tax as the man who had to earn that amount of money by the sweat of his brow. The amount of the rebate was the same, but the two individuals were in a totally different position. The man with his income in Consols could, if he wished, spend every 1d. of it on reasonable expenditure; but the man who had to labour for the same amount must devote a considerable portion of his income to life insurance, allowance for sickness, for being accidentally thrown out
    1348
    of work, and for other contingencies. These things imposed an absolute tax of at least 3s. in the £1, which the prudent man was bound to provide for, but which the man who had an income spontaneously from sources of capital need not do. It seemed to him that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in increasing the amount of the Income Tax, was inflicting a great hardship upon this large class of the community; and he (Mr. Bartley) entered his protest against the action of the right hon. Gentleman in not taking into consideration the effect on the industrial incomes by this increase. Instead of this class of people receiving consideration in a period when they needed it, an additional hardship had been put upon them. He thought they ought to do away with the anomaly arising from two classes of income; and those persons who enjoyed a spontaneous income from capital should not be allowed to pay exactly the same amount as those whose incomes were dependent on their labours, and which in most cases ceased on their death.
    *MR. GOSCHEN: The Chancellor of the Exchequer has appealed to us to say whether we should vote against the Resolution. I know that it is rarely that an Opposition takes the responsibility of framing a counter Budget. That is a demand sometimes put to an Opposition, but which, I think, is never complied with, and I do not propose that we should comply with it on the present occasion. Clearly we could not vote for a deficit, and, therefore, I should recommend my right hon. Friend the Member for the London University not to press his Motion to a Division. Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will allow me to mention a point with regard to direct and indirect taxation. The right hon. Gentleman includes in his figures relating to direct taxation the 2d. which was put on specially for war purposes in the year 1885. I looked upon that 2d. as an item which ought certainly to be taken off, and it was taken off at the earliest opportunity. Otherwise my movement was in the direction of reducing indirect taxation and increasing direct taxation. I reduced the Tea Duties, portion of the Tobacco Duty, and at the same time I put on the Estate Duty and increased the Succession Duty. Therefore, so far as my personal

    1349
    action is concerned, I certainly did nothing to relieve direct taxation. All my movements were the other way. The country, if I may use the phrase, drank so merrily during one or two of these years that, notwithstanding my reductions, they forced an increased receipt from indirect taxation upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I cannot be held responsible for that increase in the proportion of the indirect taxation which came from such a source. I think it also to be borne in mind, though the right hon. Gentleman cannot technically be bound to do so, that the large sum paid towards free education went exactly to the same class as are most benefited by the reduction of indirect taxation. The working classes gained more through free education than they would have gained if the money had been spent on the abolition of the Tea Duties. The right hon. Gentleman said that we had used the argument that the Government would be hampered as regards the Customs Duties by the Irish proposals, and he said that he thought they would not be hampered any more than they are now. I can put two cases which would show you where you would be hampered. Suppose we were to propose to abolish the whole of the Tea Duties. That would be a loss of £3,000,000; and the Irish share would be £353,000. But now we could recoup ourselves for a great portion of that loss, and probably it would be necessary to do so by a reorganisation of taxation in different directions. Supposing, for the sake of argument, that the whole of this amount was put on various forms of stamp transactions and Death Duties, the proportion of Ireland to that would be l–18th. We could recoup by that £166,000, and our loss then would be £187,000, whereas now we should have to bear the whole loss of £353,000. In round figures there would be a loss of £200,000 out of the small contribution which Ireland would pay. Again, suppose you wore to propose to abolish the Tea Duty and recoup yourselves by an increase in the Excise, theoretically you could get back a portion of that from Ireland as Ireland's share; but you would be taxing a particular commodity to which the Irish would be most specially opposed. You would have to get your extra money
    1350
    through the goodwill of the Irish Executive, and I think you would find that such an operation, though comparatively easy now, would, when the relations of the two countries as regards taxation are entirely different, become a more difficult operation.
    *SIR JOHN LUBBOCKsaid, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his reply, did not meet the substance of his argument, but picked out certain items, which he said were particularly British; but they must consider, not particular sums, but the Expenditure as a whole. The right hon. Gentleman wont on to argue that if they reduced the Customs they should relieve Great Britain and Ireland in proportion even under the Homo Rule Bill. But under that Bill, if the Customs were abolished, Great Britain would still contribute many millions to, in fact, the whole of the Imperial Expenditure, while Ireland would then contribute nothing. However, he was obliged to the Committee for allowing him to bring the matter before them. In response to the appeal of the right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer he would withdraw his Amendment, and not put the Committee to the trouble of a Division.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    *SIR J. DORINGTONmoved the following Amendment, to be added at the end of the Chancellor of the Exchequer's Resolution:—
    "Provided that in the case of Lands, Tenements, and Hereditaments chargeable with Income Tax under Schedules A and B of the said Act. the annual value on which such Income Tax is assessed shall be the net and not the gross value thereof."
    He said, in connection with the proposed increase of 1d. to the Income Tax, he wished to call special attention to the grievances under which the agricultural interest laboured at the present time. The great depression in agriculture was shown by the fact that 1,165,000 acres had passed out of cultivation since the year 1882. They had also the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that the yield of 1d. in the Income Tax under Schedule A had fallen from £217,000 down to £191,000. These two facts alone showed the extent of the agricultural suffering, and yet this was the occasion taken to impose an extra 1d. In-

    1351
    come Tax upon that interest. He should like the Chancellor of the Exchequer to follow a precedent he created on Monday night, when he proposed to remit a single tax upon certain stamps on the ground that it was a falling and unproductive tax. The agricultural industry was a falling industry, and he should, therefore, ask the right hon. Gentleman to apply the same argument to that interest. He pointed out that the Income Tax under Schedules A and 15 was levied upon the gross value of the incomes; but in the ease of the agriculturists they never received that figure from the land. In one of his remarkable speeches as far back as 1853 the present Prime Minister argued this question very thoroughly and made great admissions. The right hon. Gentleman, who at that time was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, said in the first place that—
    "Land pays not on an income assessed by the possessors, but by a standard independent of them, without the smallest deduction in respect of the difference between gross and net income."
    The right hon. Gentleman in that speech went on to say—
    "It is obvious that in order to estimate how much land and houses really pay we must deduct the whole difference between gross and net income. What are the deductions which ought to be allowed for this difference? If we had to construct a new scheme, what should we be called on, and I must say what should we in justice be compelled, to allow on this score?',
    Then the right hon. Gentleman proceeded to lay down the deductions which ought to be allowed for, such as repairs, insurance, law charges, agency, and management, estimating that 16 per cent. should be allowed in respect of these matters. At the present period the agriculturists of this country were labouring under great difficulties. At the period to which he referred, the right hon. Gentleman the present Premier apparently satisfied his own mind that the claim of the agricultural interest was just equitable; but he refused redress on the ground that incomes derived from land were stable, while other incomes were precarious. At the present time could anyone pretend that incomes derived from land were other than precarious? The agricultural interest could certainly say that it was by no means lightly taxed in other respects, and that the burdens on land were exces-
    1352
    sive. It was a national question, for the nation itself had a vast interest in making this great industry prosperous, and seeing that it was not. unduly oppressed by taxation. The subventions in aid of local rates seemed to be thought specially favourable to land; but from the Return which had been presented to that House by the President of the Local Government Board (Mr. H. H. Fowler) it would be seen that no special advantage was given to country districts. In order to find what the real charge was the rateable value per head must be taken, and the amount paid in rates on that basis must be calculated; and while in country districts this was 14s. 7d., in urban districts it was 15s. 8d., in boroughs 18s., and in London 37s. 6d. He gave up the case with regard to London; but why should rural districts be charged 14s. 7d. as compared with 15s. 8d. for urban districts? When they considered for what purposes rates were required they would see that the people in rural districts paid very much in excess of what they required, and that the rates were really taxes upon production, and not for services received. He thought, therefore, that the rural districts were entitled to some remission, and that the Income Tax should be charged on the rateable value instead of on the gross. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer would allow the tax to be levied in that way he would confer a great boon upon the agricultural interest. He begged to move the Amendment which stood in his name.
    Amendment proposed,
    At the end of the Question, to add the words "Provided that in the case of Lands, Tenements, and Hereditaments chargeable with Income Tax under Schedules A and B of the said Act, the annual value on which such Income Tax is assessed shall be the net and not. the gross value thereof."—(Sir John Dorington.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there added."
    SIR W. HARCOURT: I can assure the hon. Baronet that it is not from any want of sympathy with the agricultural interest that I am obliged to say that I am not able to assent to the Amendment. There can be no doubt that there is a great distinction as to the principle on which the tax is levied under Schedule A and the other Schedules of the Bill,

    1353
    But there is an equal anomaly on the other side with regard to the Death Duties. I am against the anomaly in both cases, and should like to see it in both cases redressed. It is impossible, however, to leave the anomaly with regard to the Death Duties remaining, and to get rid of that which relates to the Income Tax. The hon. Baronet refers to the Debates in 1853 and to the great speech of my right hon. Friend (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) with respect to differential rates according to the character of the income. The answer to the hon. Baronet is that all these questions were raised in 1852, when Mr. Disraeli proposed to establish differential rates between landed income and industrial income. These proposals were answered by the speech of the present Prime Minister; and the remarkable circumstance is that, since then, no responsible Government and no responsible Opposition has endeavoured to establish that distinction, so completely was the matter settled by the speech of my right hon. Friend in 1853 and by the Committee which sat in 1852. What I would point out to the hon. Baronet is that his claim arises from the distress of the agricultural interest; but, if his Amendment were carried, it would apply to the whole of Schedule A, part of which relates to house property. The proposal of the hon. Baronet is, therefore, not a reasonable one. The hon. Baronet also proposes to include Schedule B. But no tenant farmer under Schedule need pay at all upon the system of levying the tax of which the hon. Baronet complains—he need not pay except upon the actual profits he has made. The hon. Baronet's Amendment is erroneous in two respects. Schedule A covers much more than his argument applies to, and under Schedule B it has no application at all. The Department of Agriculture has issued to the farmers a Circular instructing them as to their position under Schedule B, and how to relieve themselves from oppressive treatment by transferring themselves to Schedule D. If they do that, and if their profits have really dwindled to the vanishing point, they will pay nothing at all in Income Tax. I am very anxious, I can assure the hon. Baronet, to deal with the anomalies existing now in favour of real property under the Death Duties; but that cannot be treated separately from
    1354
    the anomaly under Schedule A of the Income Tax. If this Motion were carried the proposals to cover the deficit would be practically non-effective. I perfectly admit all the arguments in regard to the anomalies; but I hope the hon. Baronet will consider the impossibility of dealing with them now and in the manner he would be disposed to suggest.
    *COLONEL E. HUGHESsaid, he only rose to express a hope that the present or some other Government would remedy the anomaly by which one kind of income paid 9d. in the £1 and another kind of income only 7d., for 7d. on £20 gross rating of a house was equal to 9d. on £15 the net rating, which latter was the real income. Many Prime Ministers had promised redress, but nothing had been done. He had expected redress in this matter from the late Government, but it did not come; and he felt that any Government, even a Radical one, would confer a boon by applying a remedy for the anomaly alluded to.
    MR. H. R. FARQUHARSONsaid, he was astonished at the coolness with which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had made his statement opposing the suggestion contained in the Amendment. The right hon. Gentleman knew how severely agriculture was suffering, and yet, as an answer to a suggestion for practical relief, he referred hon. Members to the Death Duties. Agriculturists wanted immediate relief. There were mistakes in the wording of the Amendment, but they could easily be remedied. Under the Income Tax Act it was laid down that in Schedule A taxes should be levied on the annual value, and that in Schedule D taxes should be levied on actual profits. If the Act were amended so as to substitute "profits" for "value" under Schedule A the remedy which was desired would be given. It might also be necessary to alter the Exemption Clauses to make sure that payment was made only on net gains. If under Schedule D it was permissible to deduct the cost of carrying on business, why was it not so under Schedule A also? The expenses of managing any estate were very great, and they were increasing rather than diminishing. Landowners had to spend large sums in repairs and improvements, and it was a great hard-

    1355
    ship that they had to pay Income Tax on all this expenditure. It was not to he expected that in these circumstances they would he disposed to lay out more money on their estates than could possibly be helped; and it should be considered that for heavy taxation and pinching the expenditure bad dwelling-houses for the labourers would result, and that would be another cause of the labourers flocking to the towns. Should the Chancellor of the Exchequer still hold Office next year, he hoped he would make up his mind do something for the agricultural interest, if nothing could be done at once. He had endeavoured to point out to him the necessities of the situation, and to show him that great injustice was being done, and he looked to him to bear the agricultural interest in mind when he next had to deal with financial proposals.
    MR. JEFFREYS (Hants, Basingstoke)said, it was most unfair that landowners should have to pay Income Tax on the gross amount of the rental, when they ought to pay, as other commercial people did, on the net amount. It was particularly hard on the landowners, because the charges which they had to pay before any of the rental went into their own pockets were not taken into account. If those were properly considered they would work out at something like 25 or 30 per cent. off the gross, because it must be remembered there was the collection of the rent, and repairs which were necessary. If these remissions from the gross amount were allowed, it would be to the great benefit of the collection of the taxes throughout the country, because there was no doubt that in the country they considered the Income Tax was collected in a very arbitrary way. It was not taken upon the profits at all. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had reminded the Committee that farmers, if they chose, might be assesed under Schedule D. That was technically true, but practically very very few farmers could take advantage of the right, as the large majority of them did not keep accounts and had no books to produce, and, in order to be assessed under Schedule D, they must be prepared with documentary evidence of that kind. A statement had been issued to show that the rates had fallen very considerably in the country
    1356
    in recent times. The fall, as everybody knew, was due to the better administration of the Poor Law. But the ratepayers in the country were hardly treated as compared with the ratepayers in the towns. In a town, a shopkeeper paid rates in respect of the house, perhaps a small one, in which he conducted his business; a jeweller, for example, with a capital of £10,000 or £20,000, paid in that way. The cultivator of land in the country, on the other hand, was assessed in respect of all the acres under his control, so that he, who possessed probably a very much smaller capital than the jeweller, had to pay rates in respect of a very much larger area. The rates paid by the small farmers were, in fact, a great deal higher than the rates paid by the shopkeepers in towns. Another matter affecting landowners was the amount which they had now to pay for stamps on leases. When a farm lease was made, the rent, of course, was mentioned in it; but the rent now included the tithe as well as the amount to be given for the farm itself, and the unfortunate landlord had to pay Stamp Duty on the whole amount; in other words, he paid Stamp Duty in respect of the tithe in addition to Stamp Duty in respect of the rent. The land was undoubtedly unfairly taxed. In former days the land could bear the taxation levied upon it; but it could not do so now, as was proved by the fact that in many counties the land was rapidly going out of cultivation, and even the small remissions they now asked for would be a great relief to agriculturists.
    MR. MUNTZsaid, he agreed with the remarks which had been made with regard to the hardship of landlords being called upon to pay Income Tax on gross rental. He had been convinced in his own mind for some years—and he had stated it in public—that the Exchequer received many hundreds of thousands per annum which they might fairly say they were not entitled to. Under the present system farmers and landlords felt it to he a gross injustice; but the class which felt the injustice the most was that of the yeoman farmer, who farmed his own land and paid upon a presumed rental and upon a presumed income. That man had, perhaps, for many years earned no income what-

    1357
    ever; yet his income was taxed as though he was earning the same income as he was 15 or 20 years ago. They naturally all looked upon this as a great hardship. No class in the country would appreciate the importance of altering the system of collecting the income from land more than the owners and occupiers and cultivators of their own land. He accordingly appealed earnestly to the Chancellor of the Exchequer to do what he could 1o relieve the land, which, at the present moment, was suffering under the greatest difficulties. The agricultural interest was undoubtedly in a state of complete ruin. If something were done by the Government to relieve that interest they would be conferring a benefit upon the country generally.
    *MR. FREEMAN-MITFORDsaid, the Income Tax was, perhaps, the fairest tax that could possibly be raised by way of increasing the Revenue of the country; but if they were to have an Income Tax, let it be raised upon what was really income. An agricultural income might be defined as something which did not come in. On the other hand, the outgoings were like the poor—they were always with them. He ventured to think that at the present moment landowners were doing everything in their power to relieve the distress which prevailed amongst farmers. Some consideration, therefore, should be shown to them. It appeared to him that the present system was a monstrous injustice. They had a right to appeal to the Government to do something for them. The present condition of farmers was such that they could not afford to pay Income Tax. In fact, they were not making an income. On the contrary, many of them were actually working their farms at a loss. To call upon these men to pay Income Tax at the present moment was asking them to do that which they positively could not do. If they attempted to claim exemption from the Income Tax by appealing to be put on Schedule D, it was really trying to do that which was impossible, because, although a man might be an excellent farmer, he was not for that reason an accountant. As a matter of fact, farmers did not keep accounts. He personally had a very large experience of the agricultural industry in his own part of the
    1358
    country, and he could safely say it would be altogether an exceptional thing to find the farmer keep such accounts as would satisfy the Income Tax Commissioners, when appealed to, to relieve a farmer from Schedule B and put him on Schedule D. It was impossible for the farmer to keep such accounts. His trade was not like the ordinary trade of the country. It was altogether peculiar. He ventured to think it would be a very difficult matter indeed for the farmer to keep such books as wore kept by ordinary tradesmen in the country. It was on that account that he hoped the Government would, in their mercy, think a little of the agricultural interest. They never stood more in need of consideration than at the present moment, and the Government might rely upon it that they would earn the gratitude of all classes interested in agriculture if they would give the matter their serious consideration. From no class would they earn greater gratitude than from the agricultural labourers, whose well-being was dependent upon the well-being not only of farmers, but also of the landlords, who did their best to find labour for them when labour was scarce in the winter time and when they were sorely in need of work. Alas, however, now the efforts of the landlords were paralysed and the efforts of the farmers were paralysed, and the agricultural labourer was driven into the towns to swell the distress which already prevailed there.
    *MR. J. G. LAWSONsaid, he desired to say a few words in corroboration of what the hon. Member for Warwickshire had said. He had watched this question for some years, and he thought he could show that although the sum received under Schedule 15 was a small sum and a decreasing sum, yet it was a sum which included a large amount, which ought never to find its way into the Exchequer at all. The total sum collected under Schedule B in the year 1891–2 was only £230,000; but he doubted if the Government would be able to collect so much under that Schedule during the present year. Under the Act of 1887 farmers had the option of being assessed under Schedule D as traders. In the year 1887 160 farmers availed themselves of the option, and, instead of paying on £22,000, they

    1359
    paid on only £2,500; and in a more recent case, last year, 116 farmers were assessed as traders, and paid on £6,826 instead of on £55,900 These were picked men among the farming class who had books to show, and that showed that they were only realising one-eighth of the assessed profit of the land they cultivated. Therefore, the receipts under Schedule B should not he £230,000, but £30,000. The first moral of this was that the farmers of the land were overtaxed, and it was the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer to relieve them. But he knew that landowners were treated with indifference by the Government. They were an oppressed and a proscribed race. They belonged to the educated class, and consequently they could expect little sympathy at the hands of hon. Members on the Ministerial side. They had to pay a larger share of Income Tax—a War Tax—than was just, and at a time, too, when we were not at war with any Power, nor likely to be. The increased Expenditure, they were told, was in respect of Education and further expenditure upon the Postal Service. The farmers appreciated the advantages of education, but they certainly did not call for it, because it deprived them of cheap labour. As to increased expenditure on the Post Office the farmers did not ask for that, because postal facilities in the way of the Parcel Post enabled fresh supplies to be brought into a rising market, and they had to pay for advantages to other classes of the community. The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that Schedule B had decreased in value from £48,000 to £36,000 per penny, and it was also the fact that in Schedule A (which included houses and lands) the agricultural land had fallen from £217,000 to £191,000 to each penny of the tax. It was no satisfaction to the farmers to find that they were becoming poorer while the other classes wore growing richer every year. He admitted that the man who farmed his own laud had an advantage; he could claim an abatement if he could show a loss on rent and on profits. The farmer could also get an abatement, but not so the landlord, whose rent, through abatement to the tenants, rent charges, and repairs, was considerably reduced from its assessed value. Those were matters which the Chancellor of the
    1360
    Exchequer should take into his consideration with a view to finding a remedy.
    MR. CHAPLIN: I am very glad that my hon. Friend has raised this question, and I am delighted also to find that the landed interest has so admirable a champion as my hon. Friend who has just sat down has proved himself to be. I am afraid this is likely to be one of the very few opportunities, if not the only one, we shall have during the present Session of discussing the agricultural situation. That situation, which certainly was bad enough at the commencement of the Session, has undoubtedly not in any way improved since. The Chancellor of the Exchequer assumed—and I think rightly—that this question was raised on the ground of agricultural depression. I am informed that there is a very general and widespread feeling on the part of the agricultural community of something like bitter resentment at the way in with they consider their interests have been neglected. No class of people in the country know as well as they do how urgent is the ease, which is not allowed to receive any portion, or which is allowed to receive hardly any portion, of the time at the disposal of the Government. It is no answer to the speech of my hon. Friend (Sir J. Dorington) to point to anomalies of the Death Duties, and to the anomalies of assessing the Income Tax on the gross instead of upon the net, and to say that these anomalies would be dealt with when there is time. The Government do not, I think, adequately realise that what we really want is something in the nature, if possible, of some relief. Nor is it sufficient for the Chancellor of the Exchequer to point to the fact that in Schedule A are included houses as well as land. The right hon. Gentleman acknowledged that it was perfectly true, as was pointed out in 1853, that there was a serious inequality between the cases of land and trade. I think it has been pointed out that the inequality amounts to as much as this— that a 7d. Income Tax is really equal to a 9d. Income Tax as far as laud is concerned. If that was the case in 1853, the burden is infinitely heavier now. My hon. Friend the Member for Tewkesbury (Sir J. Dorington) pointed out that on examining the deductions it was found necessary to make in order to arrive at

    1361
    the difference between the gross and the not, the first item taken into consideration was the necessary outgoings, such as those for repairs. In 1853 16 per cent. was allowed for these outgoings, and I am confident that a much larger sum ought to be made to-day; for, while it is undoubtedly the case that rentals throughout England in almost all cases have diminished, the outgoings remain the same, and in a great number of cases they have been considerably increased. That being so, it was that the real burden of the Income Tax on land at the present is greatly heavier than the estimate made by the right hon. Gentleman many years ago. The Chancellor of the Exchequer laid it down in his speech only the other night that it was financially unsound to raise the rate of duties on articles the revenue of which has notoriously increased.
    SIR W. HARCOURT: That was a question.
    MR. CHAPLIN: Well, it was a question which I understood the right hon. Gentleman to adopt; but, whether he adopted it or not, I do not think he could dispute the proposition. In the same speech he said that the tax under Schedule A on agricultural land has fallen from £217,000 per annum to £190,000, although it has risen on houses, whilst Schedule B has also fallen heavily—namely, from £48,000 per annum to £36,000. In spite of these facts we are now subject to an increase of duty, and an increase which will fall upon those who pay under these Schedules with great hardship. On his own showing, the right hon. Gentleman, had it been possible for him to do so, might have considered that in these cases he might have remitted the duty altogether. In any event, I think we are fully entitled to ask him to take the earliest opportunity of mitigating the hardship and injustice of the present state of things by taking care that in future the Income Tax on land shall be assessed on the net instead of the gross. I am afraid that the most bitter disappointment will be experienced by farmers and others who are interested in laud throughout the country at the Financial Statement of the right hon. Gentleman. They have been looking forward, I believe, to the Budget, and hoping against hope that possibly something might be done for them.
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    There is, as I have said, a bitter feeling of resentment against the Government because of the way in which, during practically the whole of this Session, their interests have been ignored. A Motion was placed on the Paper by the Government for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the causes of the agricultural depression and into the remedies that might be adopted. If the appointment of that Committee was really regarded by the Government as a very serious and important matter, why is it that they have never gone on with it? I know the right hon. Gentleman made a speech somewhere in the country in which he referred to well-known proceedings in the House of Commons which had prevented the appointment of the Committee. I assume that he was referring to the effect that I had felt it my duty—and that other Members, including one gentleman on the other side of the House—had felt it their duty, to give Notice of Amendments to the Motion. Seeing that the Government have the whole time of the House of Commons at their disposal, surely, if they thought the matter a serious and important one, they might have devoted some few hours to its discussion. I admit that, as far as I am individually concerned, I do not altogether share the views of the Government as to the great importance of appointing that Committee, at all events, with the proposed Reference. It appears to me, I own, that the terms of the Reference are more calculated to lead to considerable waste of time and to produce a long inquiry into matters which are perfectly well known already than to secure any practical measure of relief within any reasonable period of time. Under these circumstances, I felt it my duty to indicate by an Amendment the direction which I thought the inquiry ought to take. My misgivings as to the advantages to be derived from the proposed inquiry were confirmed by the speech which the right hon. Gentleman made on this question very early in the Session. I do not wish to impute to the right hon. Gentleman that be is wanting in sympathy with the agricultural interest, because I do not believe he is; but, at the same time, I cannot help telling him that I regarded the speech he made in that Session as a positively heartbreaking speech to every member of the

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    agricultural community. The right hon. Gentleman practically acknowledged that the agricultural depression was owing to the great fall in the price of agricultural produce, and that if that fall continued the depression must become worse. At the same time he rejected every proposal for a remedy. Protection was, in his view, an intolerable heresy. He could not do anything for the reform of the currency, and he said that if we wanted any relief we must point out, in the first place, how the deficit was to be made good. That is a new doctrine to me. I always thought it was the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and not of the Opposition, to propose new methods of taxation. However, I do not wish to detain the Committee at any unnecessary length. I have stated as moderately as I can what I believe to be the genuine feeling of the agricultural community at the present time. I still believe that some Members of the Government do not altogether realise how very serious the position is, or understand that it is becoming worse from day to day. On the top of all the calamities we have suffered, an unusual drought is now doing great injury in many districts. Taking all the circumstances into consideration, I do hope the Government will bear in mind the gravity of the position, and that if it be not possible to accept this Amendment they will make up their minds to apply some practical remedy at the earliest possible date to the present state of things.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. W. E. GLADSTONE,): If the last sentence used by the right hon. Gentleman had represented the spirit and effect of his whole speech, I should have had very little to complain of, because the recognition that has been given by my right hon. Friend of the state of the law and likewise of the general claims of the agricultural body would have left no very great difference between the right hon. Gentleman and us as to the duty of the Government to find the earliest opportunity in their power of doing what they could for its relief were it open to relief. But when I go back to other points of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman, I must express my deep regret at the course taken by him; and if it has been taken by
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    others my regret extends to them also with regard to the Committee which the Government, following the example of other Governments friendly to agriculture, proposed to take. The right hon. Gentleman says he could not agree to a Committee appointed under the terms upon which we proposed to make the appointment. But if the objection of the right hon. Gentleman was simply to those, terms, I am very sorry he did not enter into communication with us upon them, because my belief is that we could not have failed to arrive at some rational agreement with regard to the terms of the inquiry if it were admitted on all sides that an inquiry was not an unreasonable measure in itself. But the Amendment of which the right hon. Gentleman gave Notice did not point to an alteration of the terms, but it pointed to an objection to the nomination of a Committee, and to the supposed obligation of the Government to propose immediate measures of relief instead. I must say that I regret very much that an inquiry has been stopped, with regard to which it is fair, I think, to say that, although it might not have realised all that sanguine persons might have expected from it, it is highly probable that if the appointment had been made by general consent at the commencement of the Session, some particular measures of justice or of relief— perhaps not of very great extent, but still valuable as far as they went— might have proceeded from the inquiry The right hon. Gentleman says if we thought the matter of serious importance, we ought to have found an hour or two or a few hours for discussing it. But who can guarantee to us the number of hours? My opinion is if we had entered into that question we should not have got through it in a single night; and when the right hon. Gentleman takes our not having proceeded to the consideration of that Motion as a sign that we did not consider the matter serious, we are continually, not from day to day perhaps, but from week to week, compelled in regard to other great subjects to allege, sometimes in answer to hon. Gentlemen opposite, sometimes to hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House, that we admit the gravity and urgency of the question they wish to put forward, but that it is impossible, from the still

    1365
    greater pressure of other matters, to give them as early a place in the discussions of the House as we should desire. Certainly the suggestions of the right hon. Gentleman did not greatly tend to facilitate the course of those who desire to administer relief to the agricultural interest. What does he point at? He points at the restoration of Protection, with evident yearning and longing for the attainment of that happy state of things. Does he think that if he were to make a proposal for the restoration of Protection, whatever effect his eloquence might produce on the House, it would be a matter of a few hours?
    MR. CHAPLIN: The right hon. Gentleman is probably not aware that I very publicly and openly stated my opinion with regard to Protection in the winter, when I said it was not within the bounds of practical politics.
    MR. W. E. GLADSTONE: Then why does the right hon. Gentleman introduce it in his speech now as that which we should take into consideration in reference to the great need of immediate agricultural relief? Then he passes from Protection to bimetallism.
    MR. CHAPLIN: I did not mention bimetallism.
    MR. W. E. GLADSTONE: But what is the case with respect to bimetallism? When the subject of bimetallism was introduced to the House, the proposer of the Motion felt his difficulty so acutely that he was obliged to disclaim having bimetallism in view; and while we were contented with the very moderate course of simply declining the Motion of that hon. Gentleman, an hon. Member on the opposite side of the House, sitting behind the right hon. Gentleman, felt his objections to be so strong that he was not satisfied without producing a virtual condemnation of bimetallism and getting us to adopt a Motion which forbade us, so far as the House was concerned, giving any further encouragement or taking any positive measures of prolonging the discussion of the question of bimetallism.
    MR. CHAPLIN: I did not say bimetallism. I spoke of a reform of the currency.
    MR. W. E. GLADSTONE: I thought I heard the word, but I am glad to find that the right hon. Gentleman shares the modesty and the delicacy of sentiment of
    1366
    the Mover of the Motion on this side of the House, and that he is not prepared to recommend the adoption of bimetallism. Therefore, that remedy disappears. Then, said the right hon. Gentleman, there was the question of the Relief of Local Rates. That means the relief of the distressed agricultural interests at the expense of the general public by direct taxation just after the enormous Grant in Aid of Local Taxation that has lately been made. And yet the right hon. Gentleman thinks that is a measure —I do not enter upon the merits of it at this moment—to which all parties should at once submit. On the contrary, I do not think there could be the smallest doubt that it would be simply entering on a new and very difficult subject of contest and controversy. The right hon. Gentleman has also, I think, weakened his own ground very much by a remarkable statement in his speech, because he said—"You may point to difficulties in dealing with the case of house property under Schedule A. We do not ask you to do anything about house property; we only ask you to relieve land." Yes; but what will the owners of house property say to that? He, in a multitude of cases, has grievances quite as great as those of the land. The late Lord Addington, who was an excellent man, was very strongly impressed with the nature of the difficulties and inequalities under Schedule A; but, if I recollect rightly, Lord Addington considered the case of houses as the greatest grievance. He thought that relief ought to be afforded in both cases, but that the case of houses was the most prominent and most glaring portion of the case. And I must frankly tell the right hon. Gentleman, if he asks us to exclude houses from the relief he proposes to give to land, he cuts from under his feet the only ground upon which it is possible for my right hon. Friend to approach the question at all—namely, the ground of the great inequalities that are affecting the owners of laud now in common with owners of houses in this respect, that they are taxed upon rents that they do not receive. Well, Sir, that is a real grievance; that is a very serious grievance. It is a grievance which has been adopted by the Legislature, and is involved in a form of law accepted in a manner by the agricul-

    1367
    tural interest in consideration of other exemptions they were supposed to enjoy and other forms of relief that they were entitled to claim. Do not let the right hon. Gentleman suppose for a moment that I am not sensible of the reality and breadth of that grievance. It is bad in many ways. It is bad because it introduces inequality between the man who pays Income Tax upon land and the man who pays Income Tax under Schedule D or Schedule E. It is bad because it introduces very great inequalities as between different portions of the country, as between different classes of estates. Take, for instance, one class of estates in this country whore the holdings are small, where there are a large number of extremely small farms or cottage properties. Upon these estates generally the expense of repairs is enormous. A large staff of workmen is kept for the purpose of conducting them. Take another class of estates, where there are only large farms, or take the counties of Scotland, where leases used to prevail, and where the landlord had nothing whatever to do with repairs as a general rule, unless it might happen that he had to do with them upon the expiration of the lease, but where, as an annual charge, nothing in many cases was known of them at all. But in the case of Ireland these deductions hardly exist. I am not speaking of special cases. Therefore, my right hon. Friend has no motive and no disposition to accentuate these inequalities. I assure the right hon. Gentleman that in suggesting that my right hon. Friend should extend relief to land and deny it to house property——
    MR. CHAPLIN: I did not make the suggestion. I was replying to the right hon. Gentleman.
    MR. W. E. GLADSTONE: The right hon. Gentleman, I understood, suggested, or intended to say so, that house property should not be relieved. He did notice house property, and said—"We are quite satisfied, if you relieve us respecting land, to let house property shift for itself." But that is just what house property would not care to do. Lot us look at the relative magnitude of the two subjects; £190,000 per penny indicates the magnitude of the subject involved in the grievances of land;,£450,000 indicates the grievance which affects houses, which is quite as real and genuine and true—
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    both of these being real and genuine. The right hon. Gentleman is a little in error in referring to a calculation of mine made in 1853, but which he has quoted correctly. It could not be said to be authoritative, but it was the best computation I was able to make. Unhappily, the landed property is often greatly handicapped. Unhappily the land of this country is in many respects heavily handicapped, and where estates are heavily handicapped the whole of this inequality between the landlords' nominal rental and what he actually receives falls not upon the free portion of his estate, but upon so much of his estate as is encumbered; and the inequality which he has to bear applies, therefore, to that portion of his estate the revenue of which is expended in paying interest upon his mortgage. It is quite obvious that this matter cannot be dealt with, as the right hon. Gentleman was disposed very fairly to admit, in a petty and partial manner by means of pure exemptions. These would be so anomalous that it would be impossible to pass them without giving general offence, and leading us into a discussion far wider and far more complex in the future. We are most anxious that the best and simplest means should be devised of enabling the tenant farmer to pay nothing except on the profit he actually makes; but to introduce exemptions in the Income Tax which are intended to say, as between two citizens of the country, that one shall not pay the tax which another shall pay, is striking at the absolute root and foundation of the tax, which loses all its warrant and justification when it ceases to be aim at substantial equality between all the payers. In view of the complex nature of the tax, and of the interests involved in the taxation of this country, we believe that it is not possible to deal with a case of this kind, where the considerations of justice involved, I admit, are strong; but where, when we come to discuss details, it is not possible to look, at any rate, without much consideration, upon such a counter anomaly as that which prevails, and has prevailed, under the Death Duties. On the nature of that inequality it is not necessary to enter: but when the proposal is to disturb the long-established foundation of the Income Tax, based upon the equal taxation of the Schedules, we cannot

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    proceed to execute such a task as that without considering the general position of the agricultural interest in regard to equality of treatment in taxation. The question of the Death Unties then comes immediately into view, and, we submit to the House, quite irrespective of convenience or inconvenience, or to going forward with this, that, or the other measure in the present Session, that those inequalities must be considered comprehensively; and, if justice is to be done, as it is most desirable it should be done, to the owners of laud and houses under Schedule A, the House ought to take a comprehensive view of the whole matter, and endeavour to establish substantial justice between those interested in agriculture and those interested in all other kinds of property by removing the serious anomaly which now prevails both in the one class of duties and in the other. In the circumstances, I do not think that is an unreasonable position to assume. But the right hon. Gentleman and all those interested in agriculture may be quite certain that no one is more anxious than my right hon. Friend to have an opportunity of submitting to Parliament at the earliest practicable period legislative proposals which will have the effect of doing substantial justice to adjust the balance between these different classes.
    *MR. W. H. LONG: I do not want to detain the House, but I should like to make clear the position which the Opposition occupy with reference to the Committee of Inquiry, and I should also like to refer to the position of the Government on the subject of agriculture. The Prime Minister has stated as the reason why the Government do not proceed with the Motion for the Committee of which the Government gave notice earlier in the Session that the Government did not receive assurances from the Opposition that the Debate on the Motion would last only one day. I want to call the attention of the Committee, and of agriculturists generally, to the fact that the position of the Government with reference to the rest of their business is so peculiar that they cannot spare one day, still less two days, for the discussion of the interest which has always been regarded as the backbone of, and as the most important interest in, this country.
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    The right hon. Gentleman has said that the only remedy we could propose was to relieve the taxation which fell upon land at the expense of other classes of property in the country. The President of the Local Government Board (Mr. H. H. Fowler), in his speech yesterday on the Registration Bill, referred to the position of the rural ratepayer in terms of slight exaggeration. Relying upon the figures contained in the able and interesting Return which he has produced in reference to the history of local taxation, he told the House that the rural rates amounted to only 3s. 7d. in the £1. But it is not a question of what the rural rates are compared with the urban rates; it is the ability of the person to pay the rate levied; and what agriculturists have always submitted is, that since the present basis of taxation was initiated the whole situation has undergone a complete change —that, whereas land was then, no doubt, the only ostensible property, and, therefore, able to bear its burdens, that position has been entirely changed. The Prime Minister tells us the Opposition did not make proposals. Proposals have been made, but when we listened to the speech of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we realised that it was impossible that help could be given to the agricultural interest. We have felt, and do feel, that the present position of the agricultural interest is so serious as to demand more than a mere passing reference or a few words of sympathy, however real that sympathy may be. We are constantly told that the agricultural interest must stand or fall as best it could, and that it must accept the situation. I hope and believe, however, that it is at last appreciated on both sides of the House that the landlords of this country, at all events, have not been to blame, but that they have done their best, and are entitled to be considered just as much as any other class of the community. The Opposition have put down Amendments to the Motion for the appointment of the Committee because they consider that inquiry is not wanted into the causes or the extent of agricultural depression. The condition of agriculture speaks for itself, and such an inquiry can only unduly postpone the measures which we ask the Government to take and for which or anything

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    approaching them they tell us they cannot even spare a day.
    SIR J. DORINGTONsaid, he would ask leave to withdraw his Amendment, as he was satisfied, in taking note of the statement of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that, when the Death Duties were considered, the anomaly and injustice of the present incidence of the Income Tax should also be dealt with.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Original Question put, and agreed to.

    INCOME TAX.
    1. Resolved, That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be charged, collected, and paid for the year which commenced on the sixth day of April, one thousand eight hundred and ninety-three, in respect of all Property, Profits, and Gains mentioned or described as chargeable in "The Income Tax Act, 1853," the following Duties of Income Tax (that is to say)—

    For every Twenty Shillings of the annual value or amount of Property, Profits, and Gains chargeable under Schedules (A), (C), (D), or (E) of the said Act, the Duty of Seven Pence;

    And for every Twenty Shillings of the annual value of the occupation of Lands, Tenements, Hereditaments, and Heritages chargeable under Schedule (B) of the said Act,—

    In England, the Duty of Three Pence Halfpenny;

    In Scotland and Ireland respectively, the Duty of Two Pence Halfpenny;

    Subject to the provisions contained in section one hundred and sixty-three of "The Income Tax Act, 1842," for the exemption, of persons whose income is less than One Hundred and Fifty Pounds, and in section eight of "The Customs and Inland Revenue Act, 1876," for the relief of persons whose income is less than Four Hundred Pounds.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

    RECEIPT.
    2. Resolved, That the exemption from Stamp Duty in favour of the Receipts described in exemptions numbered eight and eleven, under the head "Receipt," in the First Schedule to "The Stamp Act, 1891," shall cease to be allowed, and there shall be charged for the use of Her Majesty upon every such Receipt the Stamp Duty of One Penny.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
    FOREIGN GAME.
    3. Resolved. That the provisions of "The Game Licences Act. 1860," as amended by "The Revenue (No. 2) Act, 1861," relating to excise licences to deal in Game, and the dealing in and selling of Game without an excise licence shall extend and apply to the dealing in and selling of hares, pheasants, partridges, grouse, heath or moor game, black game, and bustards imported from Foreign Parts into Great Britain or Ireland.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

    FOR AMENDMENT OF LAW.
    4. Resolved, That it is expedient to amend he Law relating to the Customs and Inland Revenue—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
    Resolutions to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock.
    Committee to sit again To-morrow.

  RAILWAY SERVANTS (HOURS OF LABOUR) BILL.—(No. 265.)

    CONSIDERATION.
    Bill, as amended, further considered.
    SIR ARTHUR D. HAYTERmoved, as an Amendment, in page 1, line 8, after the word "particular," to insert the word "servant or." He said the object of the Amendment was, as the House would see, to include within the scope of the Bill all railway employés, such as station masters, men employed in carriage works, booking clerks, and others. He was anxious the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade should say whether it would be necessary for those making complaints to be personally represented.
    Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 8, after the word "particular," to insert the words "servant or."—(Sir Arthur D. Hayter.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOARD OF TRADE (Mr. MUNDELLA,): I do not think, Sir, that the Amendment is necessary, as it will be open to any railway servant to lodge a complaint. Moreover, it will not be necessary for him to be personally represented. Anyone may represent him, or he can make the complaint by letter to the Board of Trade. If the Board of Trade receive an anonymous letter from a factory servant it would be the duty of the Board to inquire into the matter referred to in the letter.
    SIR A. D. HAYTERasked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    *SIR ALBERT ROLLIT*SIR ALBERT ROLLIT (Islington, S.), in moving the Amendment which stood in his name, said, it was in no sense hostile to the principle of the Bill, and he should not press it if it in any

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    way imperilled the measure. He heartily approved of the general principle involved, and he looked with even favour upon the measure as a whole. He was on the Committee that dealt with the question, and he could say that the hours wore very excessive—18 and 19 hours per day in some cases. As a result of the appointment of the Committee, a great improvement had taken place; but it was necessary that the most adequate security for the future should be taken, especially as to signalmen. He thought the Hill was worthy of support, for it met many of the evils complained of in the railway service; and instead of being the sham which one hon. Member had described it, it was really a most important Bill, and he had great confidence that the Board of Trade would administer it properly. It could not be urged against his Amendment that it proposed to place a statutory limit on the number of hours during which railway servants were to be employed. If he were now arguing that question he would be prepared to maintain that as the employment of railway servants was of an exceptional character, that as railways were monopolies, and that as both the safety of the railway servants and the safety of the travelling public wore involved, these were reasons for the imposition of certain statutory limits on the hours of labour. But, as he had said, his Amendment did not raise that question. The Amendment accepted the principle of the supervision and direction of the Board of Trade over the hours of railway servants; but it aimed at securing that the Board of Trade should have the fullest information for its guidance; that such information should be classified; and it indicated the general limits which would be placed— not by Statute but by the Board of Trade —on certain kinds of employment of railway servants. The Amendment did not deal at all with the running staff. He had heard many objections to limiting the hours of drivers and guards, who had to take a train to a certain point, take it back, and then go home. He admitted that any arbitrary rules for the regulation of the hours of labour of these servants would cause some, though not insuperable, inconvenience. But the Amendment did not affect that branch of the service; it dealt with, perhaps, the most important branch—so far as the
    1374
    safety of the public was concerned— the stationary staff. It sought especially to regulate the duties of signalmen, who had the most important and responsible duties to perform. The signalmen were under a mental strain of no ordinary kind, and the slightest lapse from duty on their part might result in a great disaster. Accidents arising from the carelessness of signalmen, were, he was glad to say, comparatively rare; but when they did occur they were far more destructive than any other species of railway accident. On those grounds he claimed special regulations with regard to signalmen. The Amendment also dealt with a very important matter—namely, the arrangements for the relief of signalmen. The terrible accident at Thirsk was an instance of the calamitous results which followed on the absence of a proper and adequate system of reliefs. The Report of the Committee which sat to consider this question justified his demand for the exceptional treatment of signalmen. The Committee were of opinion, and reported, that the hours of signalmen should not exceed eight, and that 10 hours were sufficient for other railway servants, and that opinion was supported by Major Marindin, the Government Inspector, who inquired into the Thirsk disaster, and who stated that eight hours' work for signalmen was the most that should be allowed on the main lines. He had heard a great deal in the course of the Debate about the feeling of railway servants in this matter. Mr. Harford, who was a constituent of his, had been frequently quoted; but whatever might be Mr. Harford's opinions—and they were entitled to every respect—his Association of Railway Servants had distinctly committed itself to the principle of some limitation of hours; and Mr. Tait, the representative of the railway servants of Scotland, in his evidence before the Committee, had proposed a legal 10 hours day. It was said that the fixing of maximum hours would have the effect of levelling the hours up to that maximum; but the general feeling was against such a proposition, and he believed the result would be the prevention of excessive hours. The object he had in view in moving the Amendment was to secure for the Board of Trade the most specific, accurate, and periodic information as to this particular branch of the railway service; and hav-

    1375
    ing regard to public opinion, he did not ask for a statutory regulation of the hours of labour, but he thought that Parliament might, and ought upon its own responsibility, to indicate to the Board of Trade that in the interest of the safety of the travelling public there should be a limit to the hours of signalmen, and an adequate number of reliefs.
    Amendment proposed,
    In Page 1, line 22, after sub-section (2) of Clause 1, to insert as a new sub-section, the words: "In the case of signalmen, the Board of Trade, within one month after the passing of this Act, shall, by order, require every railway company in the United Kingdom to submit to the Board, within a period specified in the order, a classified schedule of all signal-boxes on the system of such company, dividing such signal-boxes into boxes in which the hours of duty of the signalmen employed therein do not exceed ten hours, eight hours, and six hours respectively, and stating such further particulars as the Board may in such order require to be furnished, and especially the number of relief signalmen in the employment of the company, and the proportion of such relief signalmen to the number of signalmen regularly on duty on each section of the company's lines. The Board may from time to time by order require any company to submit to them a revised schedule of signal-boxes, and if any schedule so submitted is in their opinion unsatisfactory, the Board may repeat the order from time to time till a satisfactory classification of such signal-boxes shall have been submitted by the company and approved by the Board of Trade. Where, in the opinion of the Board of Trade, the number of relief signalmen in the employment of any company on any section of such company's lines is insufficient, having regard to the number of signalmen regularly on duty on such section of the company's lines, and to the circumstances of the traffic and the nature of the work, the Board may order such company to make, within a period specified in the order, such reasonable increase in the number of relief signalmen as may appear to them to be necessary."—(Sir Albert Rollit.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    *MR. MATHERhoped the Amendment would not be pressed. He was present at a consultation between a deputation of railway servants of the President of the Board of Trade, which was attended by Mr. Tait, and this very question having been discussed, it was decided that the Bill as drawn was stronger for the protection of railway servants than it would be if the hours of labour were specifically fixed.
    MR. WOODSsaid, that whatever might be the opinions of the leaders of the railway servants on this subject—and they were, he thought, a little complicated—be knew that there was a particularly strong feeling amongst railway servants themselves that there should be some limitation, or some power given to the Board of Trade to enforce a limitation, of the hours of labour in certain branches of the railway service. There were a considerable number of railway servants in his constituency, and knowing their views he entirely agreed with the Amendment. It was not proposed to enforce the different limits of hours mentioned in the Amendment. All that was asked was that the Board of Trade should get the power to enforce compliance with the wishes of the different sections. It was not necessary for him to dwell upon the excessive hours of railway servants, because that had been more than abundantly proved by the voluminous evidence given before the Labour Commission; but he wanted to make the Bill a living reality, to fashion it so that there would be some power vested in the Board of Trade to enforce the wishes of the House in the event of the Railway Directors trying to evade those wishes. The Amendment asked that the Directors of railways should furnish certain definite information to the Board of Trade in order that the Board might keep the hours of railway servants within a reasonable limit. He knew it was difficult to specify the hours of labour which should apply to the different branches of the railway servants; he knew that there was a strong opinion in the running department, amongst engine-drivers and guards, against their hours being fixed by Act of Parliament, but he knew that the servants employed in stationary positions were of opinion that limits to their hours of employment should be laid down. The suggestion in the Amendment as to relief signalmen was most important. Signalmen held most important positions; on them depended hundreds and thousands of lives, and it was most essential for the safety of the public that there should be more than one signalman in every box of importance. He therefore hoped the President of the Board of Trade would accept the Amendment.
    MR. MUNDELLA: It would be better that I should state at once my position in reference to this Amendment. When I first saw the Amendement on the Paper some two mouths ago, it seemed to me so fair and moderate—simply to enable the Board of Trade to get additional information—that I thought I might well accept it. But the more I inquired into it the more dangerous I found it to be, and the more I became convinced that it ought not to be introduced into the Bill. I must, acknowledge the very fair and moderate speech of the hon. Member for Islington (Sir A. Rollit) in moving the Amendment, but I must say that he was entirely wrong when he said he was supported by the Committee which considered this question. I find that both the Majority and Minority Reports of that Committee were against anything of this kind. Nothing could be stronger than both the Reports against the danger of relieving the Railway Companies of every responsibility. I implore the House not to take from the shoulders of the Railway Companies all the responsibilities they ought to bear, and place these responsibilities upon the shoulders of the Board of Trade. That is the real danger. We will have great power under this Bill, but we do not desire to take the entire responsibility of administering the railways ourselves, and the Amendment goes in that direction. This matter was fully discussed by the Grand Committee on Trade, and was rejected by 31 to 5, and no one was more opposed to it than the Chairman of the Committee, my predecessor in the Board of Trade. This Amendment does not fix the hours at all. It does not give us the power to fix the hours. It simply gives us the power to call for Returns—but we have that power already; we can ask for Returns, and when we get the Returns we can take our own action. If the Amendment stopped there it would not be bad. But it goes beyond that, for it proposes to put on the Board of Trade the responsibility of the signal departments of all the railways of the country. There are 400 railways and 50,000 signal-boxes; and as there is no possible classification, every signal-box must be considered on its own merits. But, what is more, a signal-box that may fairly be to-day
    1378
    a ten-hours signal-box, may to-morrow, by some change in the surrounding circumstances, become an eight-hours box, and is it possible for the Board of Trade, even with an army of Inspectors, to say when this change in a signal-box shall take place? That responsibility must rest upon the Railway Companies. If the matter were placed in the hands of the Board of Trade, and a case of an accident arose, the Railway Companies would say, "We were asked for no additional relief. We obeyed the classification of the Board of Trade. They made no new demands upon us." The Amendment also puts on the Board of Trade the duty of regulating the number of the signalmen who are to be employed. Here is what it says—
    "(3) In the case of signalmen, the Board of Trade, within one month after the passing of this Act, shall, by order, require every railway company in the United Kingdom to submit to the Board, within a period specified in the order, a classified schedule of all signal-boxes on the system of such company, dividing such signal-boxes into boxes in which the hours of duty of the signalmen employed therein do not exceed 10 hours, eight hours, and six hours respectively, and stating such further particulars as the Board may in such order require to be furnished, and especially the number of relief signalmen in the employment of the company, and the proportion of such relief signalmen to the number of signalmen regularly on duty on each section of the company's lines. The Board may from time to time by order require any company to submit to them a revised schedule of signal-boxes, and if any schedule so submitted is in their opinion unsatisfactory, the Board may repeat the order from time to time till a satisfactory classification of such signal-boxes shall have been submitted by the company and approved by the Board of Trade."
    But the Amendment goes further—
    "Where, in the opinion of the Board of Trade, the number of relief signalmen in the employment of any company on any section of any company's lines is insufficient,"
    so that the duties of the Board of Trade would be enormously increased. How is the Board of Trade to say that the number of relief men are insufficient? That would be taking the management of the Railway Companies into the hands of the Board of Trade. I assure the House that I have tried to see whether I could accept any or all parts of this Amendment. I summoned the Inspectors to meet me only yesterday to see whether it was possible to accept this. Major Marindin was with me, and he is the man of all others who has been the ad-

    1379
    vocate of short hours for railway servants. If this Amendment were accepted the responsibility would be removed from the shoulders of the Railway Company and put upon those of the Board of Trade. Now, if there was one thing on which the Committee—upon which my hon. Friend opposite sat—insisted more than another, it was that nothing should be done to remove that responsibility. In the Report of the Committee it is stated—
    "In the opinion of your Committee the object to be arrived at is to compel any Railway Company overworking its servants to desist from doing so, while leaving the company the full responsibility for the management of its line and the maintenance of discipline. They could not do anything which would relieve the companies from that responsibility by apportioning to the Board of Trade the duty of making regulations for the working of the traffic by the officers and servants of the company."
    That is placing them in a right position. I appealed to Major Marindin as to whether he could see his way to agree to the Amendment, and he replied that it was an impossibility. There are 12 hours boxes, the duty in which is the lightest work on the railway. I have had a letter from a signalman, in which he says—
    "I worked a 12 hours box, four trains passing each way each day. I am now working a busier box, but with shorter hours. I wish I could be restored to my old box, which was the lightest and easiest task I ever had."
    In the boxes where the hours are longer the duties are light, but it requires a very active man to stand his eight hours in a busy signal-box, and work the side lines, &c. I wish it were possible to place before the House one-tenth part of the evidence on this question. It would be a most dangerous thing to accept this Amendment. I asked my Inspectors as to how they would judge as to the number of relief signalmen required, and they said that it was an impossibility, and that nobody but, those who managed the line could tell how many relief signalmen should be on each section. That could only be estimated according to the increase or decrease of traffic. To put that duty on the Board of Trade would be placing us in a position altogether too onerous and too responsible. Major Marindin said to me—"If you go as far
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    as this clause, it will be nothing short of taking the management of the Railway Companies into your own hands." If you do that you must have a proper staff. You cannot, with a great Public Department and the present staff, manage the railways. Major Marindin said—
    "This Bill is so strong; so much good has resulted merely from being able to obtain returns of overtime that I am quite satisfied it will kill overwork."
    I believe it will kill overwork, and we intend that it shall kill overwork. When this Bill becomes an Act, it will prove a most valuable Act for railway servants and for the travelling public. I am bound to say that on certain lines there is a great deal of overwork and a great deal of excessive strain on the men. We shall have power under this Bill of calling for any Returns on receiving any representations made to us by any persons on behalf of railway servants, and we shall feel it our duty to follow up such representations and to take care that such overwork shall be stopped. Having regard to the fact that every person to whom I have appealed for information, every Railway Inspector in the employment of the Department, and every person who has experience of railways, has pressed upon me the tremendous responsibility which we shall place on the Board of Trade if we accept the Amendment, I do appeal to my hon. Friend not to press it, not only in the interests of the travelling public and in the interests of safety, but in the interests of the men themselves, because it will fetter our action.
    *SIR M. HICKS-BEACH: I will not detain the House long from coming to a conclusion, but I cannot refrain from saying a few words in support of the view the President of the Board of Trade has taken on this subject. I suppose there is no Member of the House who has devoted so much careful attention to this matter as I have. I was Chairman of the Committee which inquired into it for two years, and I can only say I gave a perfectly impartial opinion on the matter. I do not think, in the interests of anyone, it would be well to encumber

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    the Bill with the minute details which are proposed in the Amendment of my hon. Friend. I am convinced that it would be better, in the interests of the railway men, that the powers conferred on the Board of Trade should be wide powers, leaving the detailed arrangements to be worked out by the Railway Companies themselves, authorising the Board of Trade to interfere by inspection, by report, and by orders to be enforced—as the Bill proposes— through the Railway Commission if the Railway Companies do not do their duty to the public and the railway servants in this matter. Any other system would impose duties on the Board of Trade which no Public Department could discharge. I believe if we attempted it Parliament would be brought to this dilemma—either it would have to go further and take the railways into its own hands to be worked by the Government, or have to go back to the present system of non-interference. I do not think it would be quite convenient to discuss now the question whether it would be well that the railways should be worked by the Government. I remember a Debate on this subject in the last Parliament, when I ventured to oppose the proposal on the grounds that no Government could work the railways as well as the best companies worked them, and that the management of the railways by the Government would open up enormous opportunities for political corruption. In this view I was cordially supported by the present Prime Minister. This Bill, I am bound to say, is based on my own Report, drawn up by me, and adopted unanimously by the Select Committee, and, to the best of my recollection, there was no Amendment moved to the Report in the nature of the Amendment now proposed, although I think my hon. Friend was himself a Member of that Committee. An Amendment to this effect was unquestionably moved in the Grand Committee during the progress of the Bill through that Committee the other day, and was negatived by a very large majority indeed. I hope the House will adhere to the view taken by the Select Committee and by the Grand Committee, and will not impose upon the Board of
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    Trade the duties which are proposed by this Amendment.
    MR. JOHN BURNSsaid, that anyone listening to the last speaker might have thought that they were listening to a Debate to nationalise the railways of Great Britain. He gathered that the principle underlying the Bill was to give the Board of Trade power to reduce the excessive number of working hours, upon that number being proved to the Board of Trade to be excessive, through the conditions embodied in the hon. Baronet's Amendment. He could not see why the Amendment should not be adopted, as it was practically a supplementary regulation of the Bill, which did not involve any complicated conditions such as had been suggested by the President of the Board of Trade; and it was because the Amendment particularised that which the Bill was but vaguely general upon, that he trusted even at that late stage the Board of Trade would see its way to adopt it. It was said that if the Amendment were adopted it would lead to the responsibility of the Railway Companies being taken over by the Board of Trade. It was the opinion of a great many people that the sooner some of the responsibility was taken from the Railway Companies the better it would be for the railway servants and the travelling public. Did the President of the Board of Trade seriously think that this House would take over the responsibility of the management of the railways of the country? The Railway Directors would see to that, and when the House interfered with the responsibility of administering the railways, the Railway Directors would come to that House and they would have plenty of friends to advocate their view. The President of the Board of Trade said that, as there were quite 50,000 signal-boxes, it would be difficult for the Amendment to be enforced. Under the Bill it would be equally difficult for the main principles to be enforced. The right hon. Gentleman also said he could assume a case where there was a junction where a man lately worked 10 hours, but that

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    owing to the opening up of a siding or a new colliery the man would have to be put on eight hours if the conditions of the Bill were to be complied with; but under the hon. Baronet's Amendment he suggested it would mean that a particular case would have to be brought, first, under the notice of the Inspector, through him to the Board of Trade, and then back to the Railway Company, suggesting they should alter the conditions under which the man was working at a box relatively easy, but which, through the opening of a colliery, made the work more difficult. But he would point out that under the Bill of the President of the Board of Trade the same conditions would prevail even to a greater extent than under the Amendment of the hon. Baronet.
    MR. MUNDELLAsaid, the hon. Member was mistaken. Under the Amendment, so long as no complaint reached the Board or Trade, a Railway Company would be entitled to go on working a signal-box; but if the responsibility rested with a Railway Company, it would be at their risk if they continued to do it.
    MR. JOHN BURNScould not accept the explanation of the President of the Board of Trade; but if he thought that the Amendment would bring about the state of affairs which the right hon. Gentleman had referred to, he would not support it, Under Clauses 1 and 2 it was competent for any person whose bona fides were admitted to complain of long and excessive hours. Take the case of a 10 hours signal-box. Assuming that the conditions of labour had altered, and the 10 hours signal-box had become an eight hours signal-box, upon the representations of a Trades Union or the man who was overworked on the eight hours as compared with the work he did in the 10 hours, the Board of Trade would compel the Railway Company to reduce what had become excessive hours, and the Amendment, then, was to make operative and automatic the complaint against the Railway Company, and to see that the conditions prescribed were carried into effect, He was afraid that
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    in this matter the President of the Board of Trade was rather bound by his well-known principle of laissez-faire in declining to accept the Amendment, The Amendment would throw on the Railway Companies the onus of proof in the matter of the hours of their signalmen being either long or short, and he hoped that every hon. Member who was in favour of shorter hours for signalmen and other railway workers would vote for it.
    Question put, and negatived.
    *MR. DODDproposed as an Amendment, in page 2, line 6, to leave out Sub-section 4 of Clause 1. He said his Amendment did not touch in any respect the vital or main principle of the Bill, but related only to procedure. The effect of it was that it took away from the Railway Commissioners the jurisdiction which was imposed upon them by this Bill. By the Bill the Board of Trade were entitled to call upon the railways to submit to them a schedule of the time of duty of any class of their servants. If there was any failure to supply this schedule, the matter was to come before the Railway Commissioners, who had to deal with it; and then, supposing a schedule was agreed to, and the Railway Companies failed to comply with the schedule, the matter was to go before the Railway Commissioners. By his Amendment he proposed that the matter, instead of being dealt with by the Railway Commissioners, should be dealt with by commercial arbitration by the Board of Trade, who would be able to make inquiries and would then be able to make an award or order which could be enforced under the Arbitration Act of 1889. The Railway Commissioners in the past had been found to be a very expensive tribunal, and not in all respects a very satisfactory one; and if railway servants had to defend their own case before the Railway Commissioners, a burden would be put upon them which, he thought, they would be scarcely able to bear. Again, the Railway Commissioners, being a legal tribunal, were not able to hold any informal inquiry into the facts, but must

    1385
    have everything proved in a strictly legal manner. A Report recently issued by the Railway Commissioners showed the amount of confidence the public had had in that Body. In the course of a year they had only decided the small number of 12 cases. The difficulty of the Amendment he did not shrink from facing. Many hon. Members would say they were not fortunate in giving the Board of Trade the whole matter absolutely under their own control, but there was another difficulty, and that was this; He was told by a gentleman connected with the Board of Trade that they had not at present any staff that could be utilised to hold the various inquiries that had to be held if the Amendment he suggested were carried. At the same time, notwithstanding those difficulties, it seemed to him the Bill ought not to go through without some kind of protest against this additional work being thrown on the Railway Commission which, he ventured to submit, had not been very satisfactory, either to the public or the railway interest. With regard to the railway servants, it appeared to him they could not afford the time or expense of appearing before this tribunal, and, therefore, he had ventured to submit to the right hon. Gentleman a suggestion, but he did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman was able to accept it. He would ask him to accept this, if he was not able to accept the whole Amendment. But he would ask, in the first place, whether he was able to dispense with the Railway Commissioners and accept on behalf of the Board of Trade the responsibility of making an award that should be final. There was a simple mode of dealing with an order or award under the Arbitration Act. That Act allowed an award to be enforced in the same way as the judgment of the Royal Courts of Law. But supposing, which he hoped might not be the case, the right hon. Gentleman was not able to accept the responsibility of dealing thus fully with the matter, he would suggest that the objection he was making might be met to some extent by an Amendment that would enable the Board of Trade to defend these cases on behalf of the men before the Railway Commissioners. The way in which he would suggest
    1386
    it might be done would be this: In Clause 1, page 2, line 1, to omit the words—"and may," and insert these words, "and the Board may appear in support of the reference and the Commissioners may." That would make it quite plain that the Board would take up the matter of these References; and instead of the railway servants having to tight, it would be fought on their behalf by the Board of Trade. He therefore ventured to move his Amendment as it stood, hoping that the right hon. Gentleman might be able to accept it, or, if not able to do that, to accept the suggestion he had made, so as to make it perfectly plain that he did not intend to leave the railway servants in the difficulty of having to appear before this tribunal at their own expense.
    Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 6, to leave out Sub-section 4 of Clause 1.— (Mr. Dodd.)
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    MR. MUNDELLA: I cannot accept the large Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend (Mr. Dodd), because it would make the Board of Trade not only the framers of the scheme, but it would compel them to decide upon the merits of the scheme, be prosecutors under the scheme, and enforce compliance with the scheme. That would rather be going beyond the right of justice; but what I | can do is this: I am quite willing to accept the hon. Member's Amendment, which will relieve the railway servants or any person of taking the matter before the Railway Commission, as it was never intended that that expense and trouble should be thrown on the parties making the claim. It is intended, when the Board of Trade has decided that a schedule is not acceptable, or that they could not allow it, that the Board of Trade should themselves take the case before the Railway Commission provided the Railway Companies should object to accept the Schedule of the Board of Trade. I am quite willing, if my hon. Friend will withdraw his Amendment

    1387
    and accept these words, to leave out the words in Clause 1, page 2, line 1, "and may," and to insert" and the Board may appear in support of the reference and the Commissioners may." That would make it perfectly clear that the Hoard would undertake the matter.
    *MR. DODD, under these circumstances, asked leave to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Amendment proposed, in Clause 1, Subsection 3, line 1, leave out "and may," and insert "and the Board may appear in support of the reference and the Commissioners may."—(Mr. Dodd.)
    Amendment, as amended, agreed to.
    MR. MUNDELLA: I would appeal to the House now to allow us to take the Third Reading.
    THE MARQUESS OF CARMARTHENsaid, that before the Third Reading was taken he should like to say a word. The right hon. Gentleman, as he would probably remember, made an appeal to him, some weeks ago now, to let this Bill go through without any amendment whatever, as having come down from a Select Committee, and that was supported by the right hon. Gentleman sitting below him (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach).
    MR. MUNDELLA: The Bill as to which I specially appealed to the noble Marquess again and again was the North Sea Fisheries Bill, and not this Bill.
    THE MARQUESS OF CARMARTHENbegged the right hon. Gentleman's pardon, but that was not the ease. He was quite as attentive to what went on in the House after 12 at night as the right hon. Gentleman, and he asserted that the appeal was made to him in reference to this Bill. He merely rose on the Thin" Reading of this Bill to point out that since he had been in the House four speeches had been delivered, every one in favour of the Bill, by supporters of the right hon. Gentleman.
    MR.MUNDELLA: No, no.
    THE MARQUESS OF CARMARTHENsaid, that even the right hon. Gentleman himself had moved an Amendment. When the right hon. Gentleman appealed to him, he said there were no Amendments down to the Bill, and he appealed because the Bill had come down amended by the Select Committee to which it had been referred. He thought the value of the objection he took to proceeding with the Bill after 12 o'clock at night had been amply justified by the discussion that had taken place.
    Bill read the third time, and passed.

  SEA FISHERIES REGULATION (SCOTLAND) BILL.—(No. 244.)

    SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    *THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Sir G. TREVELYAN,): I rise to move the Second Reading of a Bill which is not a Party measure, and which I hope the House will not treat in a Party fashion, and which I certainly shall not introduce in a Party speech. It is very fortunate for a Member in this House when he gets his speech ready-made for him, and such a speech exists in my case in the shape of a Resolution which was passed unanimously by this House on the 8th March, 1892, and I venture to read that Resolution to the House—
    "Resolved, That a large representative element should be introduced into the Scottish Fishery Board; that a sufficient number of district fishery committees should be instituted to take charge of local fishery interests on the coasts of Scotland; that powers should be granted by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests to such district fishery committees to issue licences to fishermen to fish for salmon on suitable parts of the coasts of Scotland; that proof should be required of the titles under which Scottish mussel scalps are claimed and held; that power should be given to district fishery committees in Scotland to regulate, acquire, and work mussel scalps within their several districts."
    Now, Sir, that Resolution which I have read to the House, and which was passed unanimously by the House, is practically the Bill which I am now going to recommend to the attention of the House. Now, Sir, first as to the administrative

    1389
    system which the Bill proposes. In this country, and especially in Scotland, there are all sorts of administrative Boards which are charged with administrative affairs, but there are only two sorts of administrative Bodies which can administer effectively. Either you must have a representative Body of convenient size and properly elected, which will represent the various interests, or else you must have a purely administrative Body which is responsible to the Minister, who is himself responsible to the House of Commons. Now, Bodies of both sorts exist in Scotland; but if you are to have a representative Body, it must be really representative; that is to say, the Members of it must be returned by a free and equal suffrage on the part of those people who are interested in the subjects with which the Body has to deal. Now, Sir, with regard to the Scotch Fishery Board, at present it cannot be said to be representative at all. It. consists of nine Government nominees who have ail done their duty well, as Scotchmen always do, but who are no more a representative Body than is the Board of Trade. Now, the Scotch Fishery Board ought to be representative, and Parliament was quite right in passing that Resolution that it should be so, because the Scotch fisheries are undertakings which are very extensive in their nature, that differ the one from the other according to their locality, which are not understood at all at a distance from the locality where they exist, which are very far indeed from Whitehall, and which cannot possibly be well controlled except by a representative Body existing on the spot. But, besides being representative, it is necessary that the Fishery Board of Scotland should contain an administrative element, because the Fishery Board has to deal with public money voted by Parliament; and, in addition to that, questions are very often asked about the Scotch fisheries in Parliament, and it is necessary that these questions should be answered by a Minister who has under his control, and responsible to him, certain administrative officers. Now, we propose a Fishery Board in this Bill which shall contain both these elements. In the first place, of the present administrative element the Chairman and Secretary are both appointed by the Crown. There is
    1390
    likewise a scientific officer who is appointed by the Crown. Then we require a legal adviser, and a legal adviser in Scotland may well belong to the order of Sheriffs. But you may have too much of a good thing, and on the present Board there are three Sheriffs. We propose to have only one; and having that number of appointed members, we then have the representative element, which consists of eight, members who are elected by each of the four fishery districts in Scotland, and who will bring to bear on the Board the local feeling of those districts. So much for the Central Fishery Board, but under this Fishery Board we propose to have local committees. We shall have eight such committees, consisting of inhabitants of the district from which the committees are elected, elected freely by the fishing population of the district, which fishing population will be distinguished and segregated from the rest of the population by the assessor, who will draw up the roll of voters and mark those connected with fishing, so as to enable them to vote. So much for the Bodies which are to carry on the fishing administration of Scotland. And now then for their duties. They will perform all the duties which at present are performed by the Fishery Board of Scotland, but we propose to entrust to them an extremely important function which at present is non-existent; we propose to give them the care of the mussel-beds of the country. Now, everyone who knows the Scotch fisheries —and I am speaking, I see, to an increasing number of Scotch Members, and I am glad to think that every Scotch Member, with scarcely an exception, represents a seaside constituency, because the Scotch counties are so distributed that hardly one is a Bohemia, entirely separated from the sea—need not be told of what immense importance the question of bait is. In the question of the fisheries, in the hard battle which the Scotch fishermen have to fight against all the disadvantages that surround them, the greatest difficulty of all is that of obtaining bait. A Commission sat on this question, which was presided over by the very able and genial gentleman who at present performs the functions of Whip of our Party (Mr. Marjoribanks); a gentleman whose ser-

    1391
    vices to the question of Scotch fishery is recognised by both sides of the House, and by none more than the unworthy person who at present has charge of this Bill; and that Commission reported upon the increasing difficulty which the Scotch fishermen find in obtaining bait. Since then a great deal of additional information has been obtained by the Committee which, at my instance, the Fishery Board appointed lately. They have found that the price of mussels varies from 15s. a ton up to 40s. or 50s. a ton, and that, unfortunately, those mussels are most expensive in the case of some of the poorest fishing communities, such as those of Stornoway and Wick. There is no doubt that the difference in the price of mussels depends on the judgment and skill with which the mussel-beds are cared for and managed. At Montrose and St. Andrews, where the beds are well-managed, mussels can be procured at half the price where the beds are badly-managed and exhausted. The Committee state there were two causes for the exhaustion of these beds. The first of these is the question of ownership, and the next financial considerations, the extreme difficulty of buying the beds. Now, as to ownership, there is no doubt we must deal trenchantly with the matter, and this Bill does deal trenchantly. Under Clause 10 it is enacted that all people who claim to have a right in mussel-beds must make good that right; they must establish that right to the satisfaction of the Crown Office, and when the title is ascertained by Clause 11, the Fishery Board, on the requisition of the Fishery Committee, may acquire the beds, and when these mussel beds have been acquired by the public authority, they may lease them to those people who may be able to manage them in the interests of the general community, either to individuals or to corporations. In some cases these mussel beds are best managed by individuals as at Montrose, and at St. Andrews by corporations, and the Bill proposed to give very trenchant powers in order to enable bye-laws to be passed for the purpose of guarding these beds from intrusion and spoliation, and pains and penalties may be imposed. The second difficulty is one of money, and that we propose to meet by allowing a rate up to
    1392
    3d. in the £1 to be levied on the districts affected. The example of England comes in here. In England there is an extremely prosperous Fishery Board in Lancashire, which rates that great county, and from that rate they have not only been able to provide proper machinery, but have secured a steam launch which protects the fishery from interference. Besides, if we allow rates to be levied to enable agricultural tenants to obtain allotments, I think the fishing population should have some advantage out of the rates likewise. There are in the Bill certain clauses which relate to the finances of the Board. The hon. Member for Aberdeenshire has rather a strong opinion upon this matter; but before hon. Members condemn these clauses I should be glad if they would consider them from the point of view of the probable advantage to the Fishery Board. The proposal of the Bill is to give £20,000 a year from the Treasury and the brand fees. That, taking one year with another, will come to £26,000 a year. The average expenditure of the Fishery Board is £23,000 a year, and consequently this will be a gain of £3,000 a year to the Fishery Board. But that is not all, because, at the present time, when the money has not been expended in one year the balance is returned to the Treasury; but under the system embodied in the Bill any saving will go to the benefit of the Fishery Board.
    *MR. ANSTRUTHERasked if the average expenditure included the grant for piers and harbours?
    *SIR G. TREVELYAN: I will give the full figures. The average expenditure for the 12 years during which the Fishery Board has been running is £23,000 a year, including everything, harbours and superannuation allowances. The arrangement in the Bill will give £26,000, and during the last six years the average has been exactly the same. In order to enable the Fishery Board to start at once the Bill gives an extra £3,000 at the beginning of next year, so as to make up for the disadvantage they would other-

    1393
    wise have in waiting for the brand fees which are paid in September. That is the proposal made in the Bill. It is not the essential part of the Bill; but I must say I strongly recommend hon. Members to think twice and thrice before they reject it.
    MR. BUCHANANasked the right hon. Gentleman to explain how he arrived at the average?—he meant the average of what was paid under the brand fees.
    SIR G. TREVELYAN: The total expenditure, including the expenditure upon the brand fees, will be, roughly speaking, £23,000; the total receipts, £26,000 a year; therefore you will have £3,000 a year, on an average, more than is expended. Now that is the Bill, and I hope it will be acceptable to the House. The hon. Member for St. Andrews (Mr. Anstruther) proposes to traverse the Bill with an Amendment, which I think likely he will not press to a Division. But it is an Amendment which I read with great interest. In it the hon. Gentleman says—
    "That no Bill will be satisfactory to the fishermen on the coasts of Scotland which does not give effect to the recommendation of the Report of the Departmental Committee presented to Parliament in 1890, and to the Resolution of this House of 8th March, 1892, in relation to the granting of licences to fish for salmon in the unchartered territorial waters around the coasts of Scotland."
    Now, if hon. Members below the Gangway, who do not agree with us in general politics, and hon. Members opposite, will join in putting a stop to the antiquated and indefensible network of penalties and privileges which have gathered themselves round the question of Scotch salmon fishing in Scotch waters, all I can say is that they will not find us backward. These privileges are worthy rather of the Middle Ages than the 19th century, and in saying that I really think I libel the Middle Ages, because I am quite satisfied that in the Middle Ages the idea of giving the Crown the salmon was that it considered the Crown the Representative of the public, and the salmon were then given over to the Crown in order
    1394
    to preserve for the public at large a most valuable commodity of food; but the effect of the Crown rights at this moment is too often to play into the hands of individuals, and to support the very doubtful rights, in many cases, of individuals against what is the undoubted interest of the public at large. Now, for 25 years as a private member, I have been contending against this system; and at last, in this Parliament, we have got not only the public opinion of Scotland, but the public opinion of Parliament with us. If the hon. Member for St. Andrews (Mr. Anstruther) will embody in a clause in this Bill the recommendations of the Committee, I, for one, shall be very much pleased. What are the recommendations of the Committee? They are essentially two. They suggest that no further sales or long leases of Crown fishings, either in the sea or in the inland waters, should be made by the Commissioners, except under the special sanction of the Secretary for Scotland; and, secondly, that licences should be introduced by the Fishery Board or the District Fishery Board, by whom payment should be collected and the funds administered. Since I have been Secretary for Scotland I have thought it my duty to act in obedience to the recommendations of that Committee. I have got the sanction of the Treasury ever since last November that no more salmon fishing licences should be granted to individuals unless under the sanction of the Secretary for Scotland; and I have got the Treasury to issue orders to the Office of Woods and Forests to draw up a scheme for licences by which the general body of the fishermen and of the public may be enabled to fish for salmon. I must own that the wheels of the Woods and Forests move very slowly; and, though it is as long ago as November, I have never seen this scheme of licence. But one thing I can assure the House of, and that is that until I see that scheme, no sanction shall be given by the Secretary for Scotland to any lease of any salmon fishery to individuals. If any means can be found by which Scotsmen can obtain a privilege which Englishmen and, I believe, Irishmen have—that is, of catching salmon in the open sea round the coasts of Scotland without being bullied and worried, and

    1395
    very often deprived of the very salmon which they catch outside the territorial waters—I will give every assistance in my power to it. I have no fear whatever of a system of licences which would be managed under the auspices of these Fishery Committees. The great object for which I ask for the Bill a Second Reading is that we are constituting a powerful representative authority — popular in its sympathies, local in its knowledge, which will swiftly gather into its hands everything that pertains to that great industry which is so important for Scotland, and which has bred on her shores so courageous and hardy a population. That population will now have a powerful organisation, by which it can make its wants and grievances known, and can do its own business itself; and I have no fear whatever that the power which this Bill will place in the hands of the Scottish fishermen will ever be used for the injury of any individual, or for anything but the benefit of that great and honourable craft by which the Scottish fishermen themselves gain their livelihood.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Sir George Trevelyan.)
    *MR. BUCHANANsaid that, for his part, representing one of the largest and most important fishing constituencies in Scotland or in this country, he should like to say this much on the general character of the Bill—that he was sure that his constituency, as well as the other fishing constituencies of Scotland, would welcome the promptitude with which the right hon. Gentleman, and the Government of which he was a Member, brought in and pressed forward this important Bill. The Bill did what had long been desired by the fishing industry of Scotland. It placed the Fishery Board of Scotland on a popular basis, and gave proper public control over the bait beds of the country, and made other regulations for the better development of the fishing industry in Scotland. There were a great many points in the Bill to which he should have liked to refer; but they were more applicable to the discus-
    1396
    sion of the Bill in Committee. He would, therefore, deal only with one or two of the more important aspects of the Bill. The control of the mussel and bait beds was important, because it had been a great grievance to the fishing population round the coast that they had had no means of protecting these beds, and had had to get large supplies of foreign bait, for which they had to pay a high price. Therefore, they would welcome the proposal to bring under popular local control those bait beds. But what he particularly wished to direct attention to was the financial clause, and he wished to ask this question —was the future state of the finances of the Fishery Board, after the first financial year in which there were to be special arrangements, to be this: that the Board would receive £20,000 per annum, and the rest of its net revenue would be the surplus of the herring brand fees?
    *SIR G. TREVELYAN: Its revenue will be the same in the future as it would have been in the past if this Bill had been in operation. It will receive £20,000 a year and the gross brand fees. That is about £26,000 a year. Its expenditure will be £23,000 a year, which will include all the expenditure on the brand fees, so that there will be a surplus of £3,000 a year.
    MR. BUCHANANsaid, that he was accurate, then, in his estimate. He would point out what the condition of the brand fees had been during recent years, and what the expense of collecting them was. The surplus in the Estimates for the present year was £1,126; in 1892–3 there was no surplus; in 1891–2 the surplus was £1,686; in 1889–90 there was no surplus; in 1888–9 the surplus was £1,620; in 1887–8 it was £2,100—so that for these six years the total amount which the Fishery Board derived in surplus from the brand fees was only £6,500, or an average of £1,093 a year.
    *SIR G. TREVELYAN: My hon. Friend counts the expenditure twice over. The expenditure appears in the Estimates of the Fishery Board.
    *MR. BUCHANANsaid, he had shown that, in so far as its income depended on receipts from the brand fees, it was not a very substantial support to its revenue. He would like to say a word upon the policy of limiting the sums paid from the Imperial Treasury to the Scottish Fishery Board to a fixed sum. Every year there was a Vote to the Fishery Board, which varied according to the exigencies and necessities of the Board. He believed it was essential to the working and due development of a Board like this that it should be, like other administrative bodies in Great Britain, put upon this foundation; that when it had new urgent necessities it could come to the Treasury and get from Parliament a Vote of the sum of money it required. He considered that if they were going to have a system of Home Rule in Scotland, it would be all very well to have a fixed sum; but if there was no such scheme in contemplation, the Administrative Boards in Scotland had just as much right as the Administrative Boards elsewhere to come upon the Imperial Treasury for an adequate sum of money to satisfy their wants. The Fishery Board in Scotland had developed greatly its duties in the past, and was developing its duties now, and they looked forward to new duties being imposed upon it which would necessitate further expenditure. There had been a great development of the scientific side of the Fishery Board, and it was principally through the energy of Sir Lyon Playfair and others in that House that an addition was made to the sums granted to the Board for scientific purposes. Would anyone say they had reached the limit of the useful way in which they might expend money for scientific investigation in connection with fisheries? The progress recently had been very great, and the progress in the immediate future was likely to be greater still. The Fishery Board should not be tied down for all eternity to a fixed sum, so that it might not be able to look forward in the future to get more money from the Imperial Exchequer for the development of the fisheries. There had been constant complaint that the Board had never been able adequately to discharge its
    1398
    administrative and executive functions; and how was it likely to be able to discharge these functions better in the future if it was to be limited to a fixed sum of money? He maintained that the Board would have no margin, within the strict limitation laid down in the Bill, adequately to discharge all the cutter and boat services which were already in their hands. The small vessel which the Board now had for scientific purposes, and which had done admirable work, was, owing to the restricted funds at their disposal, too small for the discharge of the work they had to do, and the vessel was in such a state of unseaworthiness that it dared not proceed far out to sea. The Admiralty were naturally very unwilling to give them funds for the Police Service, which was not a very popular Service among the officers of Her Majesty's Navy. Therefore, what they got were not the most seaworthy ships in the Navy, but old vessels that were not of very much use. He was perfectly certain of this—that if they were to have the functions of the Board of Trade properly discharged they ought to give that Board a cutter service of their own. Steam trawling was forbidden in the territorial waters of Scotland; and how was that duty to be adequately carried out unless the Board was provided with a better service of ships? He would earnestly urge on his right hon. Friend that when the Government were imposing larger duties upon the Fishery Board, they should, at the same time, provide adequate means for carrying out the executive and administrative duties with which the Board were entrusted. This was essential if this new constitution of the Board was to lead to executive action, and if it was to such action it should have a due and fair trial.
    *MR. ANSTRUTHERsaid, the Secretary for Scotland could hardly suggest that the Amendment which he had put on the Paper was intended to delay the progress of this measure. On the contrary, his right hon. Friend must admit that he was justified in bringing this subject before the House by the fact that in his speech the right hon. Gentleman went so far as to say that he would accept the principle of that Amendment.

    1399
    But he thought he had, nevertheless, been rather hardly treated by the right hon. Gentleman; because, although he said the Bill was founded on the Resolution of the 8th of March of last year, it was founded only on the original Motion of the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Marjoribanks), and the right hon. Gentleman had not adopted for the purposes of this Bill the words which, at his (Mr. Anstruther's) instance, were added by the House to the Resolution. He, however, hoped to have the assistance of the right hon. Gentleman and the right hon. Member for Berwickshire and the Department between this and the Committee stage in preparing the clauses necessary to give effect to the Amendment of which he had given Notice.
    SIR G. TREVELYAN: Hear, hear!
    MR. ANSTRUTHERsaid, that, that being so, it would be needless to say that he would not now move the Amendment by which he had intended to ask the House to declare—
    "That no Bill dealing with the regulation of the sea fisheries of Scotland will be satisfactory to the fishermen on the coasts of Scotland which does not give effect to the recommendation of the Report of the Departmental Committee presented to Parliament in 1890, and to the Resolution of this House of 8th March, 1892, in relation to the granting of licences to fish for salmon in the unchartered territorial waters around the coasts of Scotland."
    Certainly, for that part of the coast which he represented, no Bill would be wholly satisfactory which did not include such provisions. As to the Bill itself, the financial provision appeared to him to be far from adequate to the requirements of the case. The Fishery Board in their last Report dealt with the matter of harbours on the coast of Scotland; and, so far as he could gather from the measure, only £3,000, or at the most, £6,000, would be at the disposal of the Board for the purposes of harbour extension and repair. He wished emphatically to draw attention to the clause in the Report in which it was said, speaking of the amount available for harbours—
    "We again take leave to say that the only proper way of dealing with this subject is to abandon the present hand-to-mouth system, and fix definitely a harbour extension all along the coast, to be carried on systematically for a series of years."
    1400
    In these circumstances he would welcome the assistance of the hon. Member for East Aberdeenshire when, in Committee, he came to deal in greater detail with the finance of this measure. As to Clause 7, he saw it was proposed that every Fishery District Committee should have charge and supervision of the sea fishing interests and requirements of the district; and he would like to know whether that was held to include the subject of Marine Police, because if the District Committees were to take over from the Central Board the duty of making bye-laws and regulations for the fishing along the coasts, their office would be a thankless one indeed if they had no executive power by which to carry out their decrees. The last Report of the Board was of such importance that he would trouble the House with one more extract. In the last Report that Board had used these words—
    "We continue to receive frequent complaints of the inefficiency of the service in preventing trawling within the prohibited waters, which, however, is due to no want of zeal on the part of the officers and men, but to the system under which it is conducted, the character of the vessels employed, and the small ness of their number."
    Again—
    "We respectfully represent that at the present day the Vigilant, which is an old sailing vessel, is not worth the money which she costs to keep up, and she should be superseded."
    He hoped that on that occasion the subject would not be brought to the notice of the Government in vain. He had not a word to say against the carrying into effect of the principle of the Bill. But he did not believe there would be any very large change in the body which administered Scottish affairs. At any rate, as far as the county with which he was connected was concerned, he believed that the gentleman who was recently appointed as a member of that Board was eminently fitted to represent the interests of the fishermen of that coast; and, probably, if he were to place himself in nomination, he would be elected as a member of the Scottish Fishery Board. On the other hand, if the fishing population believed that their interests would be better safeguarded by the introduction of the representative principle into the appointment of the Board, he would not

    1401
    for a moment stand in its way. He would like to add that this principle could only be carried properly into effect if the Secretary for Scotland would consent, during the progress of the Bill through Committee, to a provision being made for the payment of the expenses of these representative members in attending the meetings of the Board, which must be held in Edinburgh. On the question of salmon fishing in the territorial waters, the right hon. Gentleman had forestalled him in his suggestions; but he wished to point out that such a change in the policy of the Commissioners of Woods and Forests would not, he believed, be detrimental to the revenue which they derived from the salmon fishing. Even if it should be detrimental, they would have the satisfaction of knowing that, even if they were losing a certain percentage of their annual revenue, they were, or would be from henceforth, administering the Crown's salmon fishing not in the interests of particular lessees, but in the interest of the whole population on the coast. He did not doubt that the statement of the Secretary for Scotland would be welcomed in Scotland.
    MR. GRAHAM MURRAYsaid, there was every reason why they on his side should welcome the Bill, because it was very much on the lines of the measure introduced by the late Government last Session—a measure for the failure of which the hon. Member for Caithness (Dr. Clark) was responsible. So far as his (Mr. Graham Murray's) own opinion was concerned, he rather preferred, in one particular, the arrangement of this Bill—namely, that as to the number of the districts into which Scotland was divided for the purpose of having a representative element on the Board. But he did not think that the right hon. Gentleman had attempted to deal with this difficulty—that although for local initiation it was a good thing to have a considerable number of districts, at the same time, when they came to the composition of the Fishery Board itself, they had the danger that they would have the permanent element entirely at the mercy of the representative element from the various districts. He would
    1402
    like to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he could, at least, consider this difficulty? Some information was also wanted as to the way in which the District Committees would work. A question had recently been agitating and interesting the fishermen connected with the constituency he had the honour to represent and the constituency of the hon. Member for North Ayrshire. As the law at present stood, although trawling was prohibited as a rule in the three-mile limit, there was a power in the Fishery Board to pass a bye-law by which they might open a district. A bye-law was passed by the Fishery Board by which a very small and limited district of the waters of the Clyde was opened. That district had given the greatest dissatisfaction. What he wanted to know was, whether under the Bill a district Fishery Committee could or could not deal with the question of local bye-law? The Bill did not give much assistance upon the point. As to the question of finance, he entirely agreed with the remarks of the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire. He also asked the right hon. Gentleman to consider the point raised by his hon. Friend as to the provision for sea police, without which the provisions in regard to trawling were a dead letter. At present there was a peculiar state of relations between the Fishery Board and the Admiralty; but it was quite certain, if the Fishery Board was cut adrift from a great Government Department, that the chance of getting efficient cruisers for sea police purposes was very small in the future. He would like to say a word upon the Amendment of his hon. Friend who had just sat down, and save the Secretary for Scotland from the indiscretion of his own language. The right hon. Gentleman said he considered the question of the pains and penalties of the Salmon Law Statutes a disgrace to the 19th century. To what did that language apply? There was no difference in the pains and penalties for taking salmon in the sea or in fresh water; but there was a very great difference between the question of property in salmon in rivers and in the sea. There was no use blinding one's eyes to the fact that of late years there had arisen in some quarters a demand for free fishing. ["Hear, hear!"] Some hon. Gen-

    1403
    tlemen cheered that sentiment. Did the denunciation of the right hon. Gentle-man apply to the law in salmon rivers as well as in the sea? Salmon fishing had always been regarded as private property in private waters, and was not differentiated in practice or principle from any other private property. But in the case of the sea the matter was in a totally different condition. It was in 1857 or 1858 when it was decided, what was before but a pious opinion, that salmon fishing on the coast round the United Kingdom belonged to the Crown. He had always thought it would be right for the Crown to give those rights of fishing in the sea to the public, and not to let them out at all. But here, again, some remarks of the right hon. Gentleman might be misinterpreted. He seemed to think it would be only fair to give that right to the public unrestrictedly. Immediately after the decision of the Commissioners in 1857 or 1858, there was initiated a policy by the Woods and Forests Department of giving out as many leases as they could. If, therefore, they were going to give the rights in regard to salmon in the sea, which he would be glad to see given, it would only be fair to give back the money which had been exacted from proprietors for a right which it was now desired to take away from them. Seeing the disposition and attitude of the right hon. Gentleman, it was his business to draft an Amendment to the Bill rather than to put it on the shoulders of his hon. Friend. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman would follow the promptings of the hon. Member for Aberdeenshire, and be liberal in the matter of finance in favour of a class whom they all wished to see supported, and that he would, at the same time, take means to put on a proper footing this question of the sea police, as the ordinary protection of the law was inadequate, and that means would be taken to make the Bill a useful measure.
    *SIR W. WEDDERBURNsaid, he wished to say a few words on this question as representing a large fishing constituency. He had been recently among them, and the fishing population had expressed themselves very favourably with regard to the general
    1404
    objects of the Bill, and especially as regards the representative character which had been introduced into the District Fishery Committees and the Fishery Board. There were certain points they wished brought to the notice of the House, and of those several had already been dealt with by hon. Members who had preceded him. He must state his concurrence in the views which had thus been expressed. There was one point which was to the fishermen a matter of life and death, and that was the improvement of the harbours on that exposed coast. The boats now used were a good deal larger than those formerly employed, and, consequently, harbour accommodation was altogether insufficient. The money ought not to be spent casually from year to year, but some good scheme should be adopted for the whole of the Moray Firth, to be pursued systematically from year to year. The feeling was very strong that the sum of £3,000 provided for harbours was altogether insufficient, and he earnestly trusted that the Secretary for Scotland would do his utmost to grant a really adequate sum for that purpose. The important question of the use pf the foreshore, had not been included in the Bill. He thought that District Committees ought to be empowered to call for the titles of those proprietors who claimed the exclusive use of the foreshore. Under an old Statute the fishermen had a right to the use of the foreshore including 100 yards of waste above highwater mark, for drying their nets and other purposes; and the Fishery District Committees should have power, as in the case of musselbanks, to acquire and manage the foreshore for the benefit of the fishing industry. A minor point had been brought to his notice with regard to the collection of the Fishery Rate. The Bill provided that the District Committees should collect it; but it was thought that that would cause unnecessary expense. It might be collected through the machinery of the County Council. He trusted that the Secretary for Scotland would undertake to prepare clauses dealing with the question of the taking of salmon in territorial waters, as had been suggested

    1405
    by the hon. Member for St. Andrews (Mr. Anstruther).
    MR. HUNTERsaid, the hon. and learned Member for Buteshire (Mr. Graham Murray) had stated that there was no material difference between the present Bill and the measure introduced by the late Government. There was, however, all the difference that there was between black and white. Last year's Bill specially subordinated the representative to the nominated element, whilst this was a measure which subordinated the nominated to the representative element. The way in which woods and forests had been dealt with in Scotland was most scandalous. They had been controlled by Englishmen, who had sold them, generally to Scotchmen, for a most inadequate consideration, and put the proceeds into the Imperial Exchequer. A very important question with regard to nuance was raised by the Bill, and he would humbly represent to the Scottish Secretary (Sir G. Trevelyan) that he should drop the rating provisions contained in Sub-section 3 of Clause 6; otherwise districts would be included for rating purposes which had no visible or apparent connection with the fishermen, and naturally the inhabitants would object to be rated for a particular object which did not benefit them. He thought that the expense should come out of the Imperial Grant. In Committee he intended to move an Amendment to Clause 20, providing that Scotland should have "not less than" £20,000. The sum was too small in itself, and it was ridiculously small in view of the general treatment of Scotland by the Imperial Exchequer. Scotland paid £ 1,500,000 a year more than her proper share to the Imperial Exchequer, and he regretted very much that the Prime Minister had not re-appointed the Financial Committee, so that the House might have had a definite statement from it on the subject. If Scotland were to get, not £20,000, but £200,000 or £1,000,000, she would still not be receiving her fair share; and, while Scotchmen did not desire liberality or generosity, they certainly asked for justice.
    *SIR J. FERGUSSONsaid, he was very much interested in the fishermen in the Firth of Clyde. In years past he was concerned in procuring the passing of the Act of 1889 for the restriction of trawl fishing in that and other enclosed waters of Scotland, whereby the herring fishery was being destroyed. That Act was of enormous importance to the class of fishermen to whom he referred; but there had been invented a new kind of seine trawl fishing which had been attended with evils not much smaller than those which had been caused by beam and otter trawling, and great complaints had been made in consequence of a considerable destruction of the spawning beds in the Firth of Clyde. It was perfectly well known that miniature herrings were being destroyed to a tremendous extent and used for manure, while the shoals which resorted to certain banks for spawning were being driven into deep water, the result being great loss to the local fishermen. Of late years the catch had fallen off to nearly half its former amount. He would, in Committee, move the insertion of a clause dealing with the subject.
    MR. WASONsaid, there was great complaint in reference to the matter to which the right hon. Gentleman had just referred, and if the right hon. Gentleman had not given Notice of an Amendment he (Mr. Wason) would have done so himself. There was another matter of almost equal importance, and that was to see that, the orders and bye-laws of the Fishery Board were properly carried out. Within the last few days he had received a telegram, informing him that great damage had been done by steam-trawlers fishing in forbidden waters of the Clyde. He hoped the Admiralty would station a proper vessel somewhere in the Firth to see that proper effect was given to the bye-laws. In reference to bait fishing, it was not generally known that it took a ton of bait to catch a ton of fish, and the fishermen were being driven further afield every day to got their bait. As

    1407
    to the proposed grant of £3,000 towards harbours, he had in his hand a letter requesting him to ask the Scotch Secretary for a grant of £2,000 for providing a proper harbour for one place alone. Under these circumstances, he hoped that more generous terms would be given on this point.
    MR. CRAWFORDsaid, that, as he was one of the two surviving Members of the Departmental Committee that reported on the question of salmon fishing at sea, he thought he might be permitted to take part in the discussion. It was hardly just to the Secretary for Scotland to complain that, although a Resolution of the House had been passed in favour of giving licences for salmon fishing at sea, those clauses had not been incorporated in the Bill. There had been a series of legislative enactments about sea fisheries in Scotland. Hitherto salmon had been excluded from them, and he thought it would have been a mistake if the Government in the original draft of the Bill had incorporated salmon, which had never been incorporated before, and which might become a contentious subject. He was glad to gather that there was a general feeling in the House in favour of greater liberty being given for salmon fishing at sea. He was sure that the House, as a whole, must regard it as a very strange anomaly that, whereas in England the right to catch salmon at sea under proper restrictions, which were prompted by the desire to preserve the fish, was a public right, in Scotland it was regarded as a private right, and was made a matter of bargain and sale on the part of the Crown. He did not think the late Solicitor General (Mr. Graham Murray) did perfect justice to the views of the Government when he suggested that it was contemplated that the rights of existing trustees should be confiscated. He thought this was a matter of the greatest importance. This legislation was not more than a generation old. They had examined a number of witnesses, who had said that when they were young they used to catch salmon
    1408
    without let or hindrance, and that this legislation suddenly burst upon them. The fishermen felt—and the feeling would increase—that they had every right to go into the open sea and catch salmon. As to the subject of sea police, like many other Members from Scotland, from time to time he had had occasion to take considerable interest in the business of the Fishery Board; and he did represent to the House—and on this point he fully agreed with the hon. Member below him—that it was an idle thing to lay a duty on the Board in the matter of police for the preservation of fish without providing them with funds for the purpose. It was not right that the Scotch Office and the Fishery Board should have to go cap in hand to the Treasury and ask for a few pounds to perform a statutory duty that was laid on them by the Legislature. He hoped that the law would be amended so as to give adequate means to the Fishery Board for performing this duty.
    SIR H. MAXWELLsaid, he had not been privileged to hear the speech of the Secretary for Scotland; but he understood that effect was to be given to the substance of the Amendment of his hon. Friend (Mr. Anstruther). He would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether that was a wise course to take, because they must remember that it was not only through that House that the Bill had to pass, and that directly they proposed salmon legislation they would raise a mass of opposition and criticism in Scotland which the Bill in its present form was not likely to evoke. There was another point in connection with this matter. He was anxious that the House should not misunderstand the Report of the Committee over which he had presided. That Report did not refer to the salmon fisheries generally in territorial waters round the coast of Scotland. It only referred to the portion of them which were still Crown property. In that portion of the waters the Committee did recommend that popular privileges, and what had almost amounted to ancient rights, should be restored, and that rather than the Crown should take the last

    1409
    bawbee, as they said in Scotland, in the shape of rent, the men should be considered. If the right hon. Gentleman was wise in extending the scope of the Bill so as to include the administration of the salmon fisheries, he trusted that that suggestion of his Committee would be kept clearly in view.
    *SIR G. TREVELYAN: I hope that, the general sense of the House having now been made clear, we may be allowed to take the Second Reading.
    VISCOUNT WOLMERsaid, he would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider very carefully before the Committee stage that part of the Bill which affected the Civil servants of the Crown now under the Treasury doing the work of the Fishery Board. The men, clerks of all grades and officers of all ranks, were part of the permanent Civil Service of the Crown, and subject to the control of the Treasury, enjoying all the rights, privileges, and prospects of such servants. But this Bill took them from the control of the Treasury and put them under the Fishery Board, and they considered that this was a distinct breach of the contract which was made with them when they entered the service of the Government. All he now asked was that their case should be carefully considered.
    *MR. WEIRsaid, he hoped to see the Bill considerably amended in Committee. It was said by a right hon. Gentleman on the other side of the House that if the salmon rights were to be taken from the landlords they should be recouped. He (Mr. Weir) thought they had been amply repaid already. Take, for instance, the case of the Matheson's in the Island of Lewis. For every £100 they expended in obtaining the exclusive right to salmon, not only in the Lochs, but for miles out into the Atlantic Ocean, they received thousands of pounds in return; re-letting the salmon fishings, which ought never to have been jobbed away by the Crown. He protested against the niggardly spirit
    1410
    displayed by the Treasury in the matter of harbour accommodation in Scotland.
    Motion agreed to.
    Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday next.

  DUCHY OF CORNWALL BILL.—(No. 312.)

    SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    It being Midnight, the Debate stood adjourned.
    Debate to be resumed To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

  WILD BIRDS PROTECTION BILL. (No. 298.)

    COMMITTEE.
    Bill considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    MR. CONYBEAREasked whether the Bill would prevent the shooting of rare specimens of wild birds as well as the destruction of their eggs?
    SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, he sympathised with the observations of the hon. Member; but the Bill was framed only for the purpose of preventing the destruction of eggs, and he could not advise the Committee to go into the larger question, whether the destruction of wild birds by shooting or otherwise should be prohibited.
    MR. CONYBEAREsaid, the object he had in view was to protect larks. He thought a provision ought to be inserted in the Bill to prohibit the slaughter of larks for eating purposes, for he believed some people looked upon the birds as a luxury.
    SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, it was not admissible to kill larks in Great Britain under the Wild Birds Preservation Act of 1880.
    *MR. SIDEBOTHAMsaid, that under the Wild Birds Protection Act of 1880 certain wild birds were protected from the 1st March to the 1st August in each year. Power was

    1411
    also given to the Magistrates—a power which now vested in the County Councils —to apply to the Home Secretary to extend the time in favour of any bird. He proposed a new clause to the Bill, to leave out the limit of time in the Act of 1880, in order that the Home Secretary might have power to preserve wild birds during any month of the year. His object was to preserve the lark, one of the most harmless and the most charming of birds. If the destruction of the bird were continued on the present enormous scale the bird would soon be extinct.
    New Clause proposed,
    "The words 'during the breeding season' in line 2 of the Preamble of 'The Wild Birds Protection Act, 1880,' are hereby repealed."— (Mr. Sidebotham.)
    SIR HERBERT MAXWELLhoped his hon. Friend would not persevere in moving his new clause. He sympathised with the object of the clause, but it would enlarge the scope of the Bill beyond the original intention, which was that it-should be an Egg Bill pure and simple.
    MR. CONYBEAREsaid, that as the promoters of the Bill had no objection to the clause on its merits, he hoped the hon. Gentleman who moved it would persevere with it.
    SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, he would remind the Committee of the circumstances under which the Bill originated. About two years ago the Oological Society of Birmingham got up an expedition to visit the Hebrides for the purpose of making a collection of the eggs of rare birds. It was generally felt that the time had come to prevent such practices, and it was solely with that object the Bill had been framed.
    DR. TANNERasked whether the Bill applied to plovers' eggs?
    SIR HERBERT MAXWELLsaid, it would be within the power of County Councils to prohibit the taking of plovers' eggs.
    Amendment negatived.
    Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

    MILITARY LANDS (PROVISIONAL ORDERS) BILL.—(No. 262.)
    Read the third time, and passed.
    PILOTAGE PROVISIONAL ORDERS BILL. (No. 286.)
    Read the third time, and passed.

    COMMONS REGULATION PROVISIONAL ORDER (WEST TILBURY) BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Herbert Gardner, Bill to confirm a Provisional Order of the Board of Agriculture relating to the Regulation of the Commons in the parish of West Tilbury, in the county of Essex, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Herbert Gardner and Sir John Hibbert.
    Bill presented, and read first time. [Bill 323.]

    LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 5) BILL.—(No. 289.)
    Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; to be read the third time To-morrow.
    ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.—(No. 285.)
    Reported, without Amendment [Provisional Orders confirmed]; to be read the third time To-morrow.

    PLACES OF WORSHIP SITES BILL.
    Reported from the Standing Committee on Law, &c.
    Report to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 192.]
    Minutes of Proceedings of the Committee to be printed. [No. 192.]
    Bill, as amended in the Standing Committee, to be taken into consideration upon Tuesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 324.]

    RAILWAY AND CANAL TRAFFIC ACTS, 1873 AND 1888.
    Copy presented,—of Fourth Annual Report of the Railway and Canal Commission, with Appendix [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.
    EVICTIONS (IRELAND).
    Copy presented,—of Return of the number of Evictions during the quarter ended 31st March, 1893 [by Command]; to lie upon the Table.

    BANKRUPTCY COURTS (IRELAND).
    Copy presented,—of Annual Returns of the Court of Bankruptcy in Ireland, and the Local Bankruptcy Courts of Belfast and Cork, for the year 1892 [by Act]; to lie upon the Table.
    House adjourned at twenty-five minutes after Twelve o'clock.

LAW OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) BILL.—(No. 42.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  *LORD MONKS WELL*LORD MONKS WELL, in moving the Second Reading of the Bill, said it applied only to the Municipality of Dublin, and it proposed to ex tend the protection now afforded to debtors owing £10 and less to debtors owing £20 and less. The principal Act of 1888 referred to in the Bill placed certain restrictions on the levying of distress and execution, intended to prevent fraud or hardship. Clauses 3 and 4 of this Act extended those restrictions to debtors owing up to £20. Clause 5 merely doubled the maximum payment to be made to bailiffs. He might mention that, like the Act of 1888, this Bill was introduced at the urgent request of the Recorder of Dublin, and it had been agreed to by members of every political denomination.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Lord Monkswell.)
  *LORD ASHBOURNE: My Lords, I believe the noble Lord who is in charge of this Bill has stated with accuracy its provisions; and I know from a communication I have received from the Recorder of Dublin—one of the most respected of the Judges in Ireland— that the Bill has practically emanated from his own suggestions. I believe it is calculated to materially ameliorate hardships which are now found to exist. Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

LOCAL AUTHORITIES LOANS (SCOTLAND) ACT (1891) AMENDMENT BILL. (No. 57.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  *LORD PLAYFAIR*LORD PLAYFAIR, in moving the Second Reading of the Bill, said he was afraid it would be difficult to make it intelligible to their Lordships, but he would try his best in a few words to do so. The Scotch Act of 1891 was passed for the same purpose as the well-known English Act, by which Local Authorities were permitted to issue Stock for carrying out public improvements and for public purposes. When the Local Authorities Loans Act was passed for Scotland in 1891, it was found to be very useful, and a number of burghs immediately proposed to issue Stock; but when they tried to do so, they experienced great difficulties. The Scotch Act differed from the English Act chiefly in one respect: that while the latter allowed all the regulations for borrowing money to be made by the Local Government Board subject to the approval of the Privy Council, and to be laid on the Table in both Houses of Parliament for 30 days, the Scotch Act tried to put all those regulations in one Operative Clause, the 5th, of the Act. That 5th clause, which was the Operative Clause of the Act, was found to be perfectly unintelligible. In the opinion of a distinguished Law Officer, its provisions were contradictory and subversive of one another; and, in fact, nobody could understand it. The Scotch Law Officers of the late Government did their best to explain it, but found they could not. They called in legal experts, but they were unable to interpret its meaning; and the present Law Officers for Scotland were equally unable to explain the meaning of the 1st sub-section of the Operative Clause of the Act. The object of this Bill was to amend that clause by repealing the 1st sub-section, and giving to it an intelligible explanation; and then it assimilated the Act to the English Act, which would allow the Secretary of State for Scotland to issue regulations, as was done by the President of the Local Government Board, in order to prevent all the details being put into the Act. The Bill had passed in the House of Commons without opposition, and he hoped their Lordships would give it a Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Lord Playfair.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

POST OFFICE (ACQUISITION OF SITES) BILL.—(No. 36.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  LORD PLAYFAIRmoved that the Amendments of the Chairman of Committees be accepted.
  Amendments agreed to.
  Standing Committee negatived; the Report of Amendments to he received on Monday next.

RIVERS POLLUTION PREVENTION BILL.—(No. 64.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  *LORD MONKSWELL*LORD MONKSWELL, in moving the Second Reading of the Bill, said: The Bill had been introduced by the President of the Local Government Board to remedy a practical defect in the Rivers Pollution Prevention Act of 1876 owing to the decision of an eminent lawyer, which seemed to show that the Act required amendment. Section 3 made it an offence to cause to fall or flow, or to knowingly permit to fall or flow, into any stream any solid or liquid matter. The section further provided for the case of sewage passing along a channel constructed, or in course of construction, unless the Court were satisfied that the best practical and available means to render such sewage harmless had been used. It was obviously intended that the Act should apply also to sewers which were unconstructed at the date of the passing of the Act. A case occurred under Section 17 of the Public Health Act, which was very much to the same effect as that section, on which it was decided that a Local Authority by merely permitting sewage so to fall or flow did not commit any offence if the Local Authority had done nothing actively to turn sewage into a stream. That decision was remitted to the Law Officers of the Crown, who advised the Local Government Board that it applied to the provisions of
  1284
  the Rivers Pollution Prevention Act so that a Sanitary Authority would not be committing an offence against the Act by merely permitting the discharge of sewage into a stream through a sewer (constructed prior to the passing of the Public Health Act of 1875), in which case it had to be shown in addition, in order to constitute an offence, that the Sanitary Authority had done something actively to turn sewage into the stream. This Bill was intended to meet that difficulty. It provided that—
  "Where any sewage matter falls or flows, or is carried into any stream after passing through or along a channel which is vested in a sanitary authority, the sanitary authority shall, for the purposes of section three of the Rivers Pollution Prevention Act, 1876, be deemed to knowingly permit the sewage matter so to fall, flow, or be carried."
  The effect of it would be that, whore sewage was passed into a stream through any sewer vested in a Sanitary Authority, it would be an offence in that Authority to allow the sewage to continue to be passed into the stream unless the best practical available methods were used to render it harmless. He begged to move that the Bill be read a second time.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Lord Monkswell.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

COPYHOLD (CONSOLIDATION) BILL. (No. 34.)

  SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HERSCHELL): My Lords, the Bill which I have to ask your Lordships to read a second time makes no alteration in the law, but consolidates the provisions to be found in various Acts in reference to the law of enfranchisement of copyholds in land. I think it will be found very convenient to codify those enactments. The measure has been introduced at the instance of the Board of Agriculture, and I trust your Lordships will consent to the Second Reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a" —(The Lord Herschell.)
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I quite concur in the noble and

  1285
  learned Lord's opinion as to the advantage of a Consolidation Bill, and, of course, as a Consolidation Bill I should not think there can be any opposition to it; but I am doubtful whether the noble and learned Lord is quite accurate in saying that it makes no alteration in the law. There are points which may seem small to persons who are not acquainted with copyhold operations; but whether small or not, I do not think it is desirable that a Copyhold Consolidation Bill should contain them, because their insertion diminishes the confidence with which the House passes Bills of that kind. My belief is, that if this Bill passes, escheats are no longer to count in enfranchisement. I do not press it; but it is an alteration which may be of importance, and I think it is desirable that alterations of the law should not take place in Consolidation Bills without notice.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: Would the noble Marquess point out where that occurs?
  THE MARQUESS OP SALISBURY: It is the proviso in Clause 6. I would also call attention now to Clause 8. There a tenant is given the power of requiring that his compensation shall be in the form of a rent-charge, and not in the form of a capital sum, where the enfranchisement is at the instance of the lord. That I believe to be in the interest of the lord; but I venture to commend those two points to the consideration of the noble and learned Lord before we go to the next stage, in order that we may have the advantage of his opinion upon it.
  THE LORD PRESIDENT OF THE COUNCIL AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (The Earl of KIMBERLEY): My Lords, may I venture to say a few words upon this Bill, as I happened to be upon the Committee which considered it? My strong opinion is that it was after the Committee had considered the subject that the law was made as this clause is framed. It was recommended strongly by Lord Selborne, and he was the person who suggested it. I have not had time to consider the matter in connection with the Acts, but I think it will be found that that alteration was then made in the law. I am not going to trouble the House with arguments upon it now, but
  1286
  I will say that I do not think any alteration of the law that could be made was ever more desirable than that.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

CHURCH PATRONAGE BILL—(No. 24.)

  REPORT OF AMENDMENTS.
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  *LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYsaid, he would like to ask a question with regard to the payment of fees. A number of charges were specified, particularly with regard to the transmission of the right of patronage. He would not object to them if they were for the benefit of the Church, but they would only benefit those legal gentlemen who sometimes charged more than was charged by the solicitors of laymen, and perhaps the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack would give some information as to those fees.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, I find it impossible to state off-hand what are the right fees to be paid, but I 1hink I may assure the noble Lord they are not likely to be excessive. In fact, the charges which wore made under the Church Discipline Act were found to err rather on the side of too limited charges. It was, in fact, found that they had been so framed with a view to strict economy that they were too economical to work. If these charges have been made in the same spirit I am quite sure the same difficulty will arise.
  Report of Amendments agreed to.
  Bill to be read 3a on Tuesday next.

  VOLUNTARY CONVEYANCES BILL [H.L.]—(No. 20.)
  House in Committee (according to Order): An Amendment made; and Bill re-committed to the Standing Committee.
  POLICE ACTS AMENDMENT BILL. (No. 27.)
  Amendments reported (according to Order), and Bill to be read 3a To-morrow.

  POLICE DISABILITIES REMOVAL BILL.
  House in Committee (according to Order): Bill reported without Amend-

  1287
  ment, and re-committed to the Standing Committee.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 2) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read la; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 71.)

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT PROVISIONAL ORDER (No. 3) BILL.
  Brought from the Commons; Read la; to be printed; and referred to the Examiners. (No. 72.)
  House adjourned at ten minutes before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.