Sitting of 16 August 1890

Preamble
The House met at Twelve of the clock.
QUESTIONS.

  VACCINATION.
  DR. TANNER: I beg to ask the President of the Local Government' Board whether parents who present their children to public vaccinators for vaccination with calf lymph will be open to prosecution under the Compulsory Vaccination Act if they withhold their children from vaccination with human lymph; whether the Board recognises the vaccinator's responsibility for the lymph he uses, as that responsibility has been declared by the Board's Medical Officer, and will supply to public vaccinators at least, from the institution authorised by Parliament for the production of calf lymph, so much of that lymph as they may require for the due discharge of their official duties; and whether, in view of the fact that in Belgium and other countries calf lymph in dispensed by their Governments to the almost complete exclusion of human lymph, and that the Board's Medical Officer has in a recent Report spoken favourably of the increasing preference shown in this country for calf lymph, he can inform the House on what grounds that preference and the Medical Officer's favourable mention of it are founded?
  THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. RITCHIE,: The Vaccination Act, 1867, under which vaccination is made compulsory, contains no exemption by which parents are relieved of the statutory obligation in this respect because of their preference for one class of lymph rather than another. But every parent is free to arrange with a private medical practitioner for the vaccination of a child with calf lymph. The Local Government Board have always regarded it as a matter of importance that the responsibility for the lymph used in vaccination should lie with the public vaccinator, and they concur in the view expressed by their medical
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  officer as to this. The Board will continue, as heretofore, to forward to any public vaccinator who may desire it a supply of calf lymph, such as will enable him to establish a series of vaccinations, but, as I stated yesterday in my reply to-another question, I am not prepared to make any change in the administration of the Vaccination Acts pending the sitting of the Royal Commission on Vaccination. I am not aware that the Medical Officer of the Board has in any recent Report spoken favourably of the increasing preference shown in this country for calf lymph.

  SIR G. CAMPBELL AND THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.
  SIR G. CAMPBELL: Perhaps the House will allow me to make a personal explanation. When I complained the other day that the Public Prosecutor did not investigate the case of bogus companies, the Attorney General mentioned the instance of a particular company with which I have been connected, and he suggested that I was endeavouring to enforce civil rights by the means of the Criminal Law.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir R. WEBSTER,: I beg the hon. Gentleman's pardon. The hon. Gentleman is quite mistaken. I said, as a general proposition, that these prosecutions would be used for the purpose of enforcing rights. I made no allusion whatever to the misfortune of the hon. Member.
  SIR G. CAMPBELL: I am quite aware the Attorney General exempted me from his category of fools.
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! After that explanation I do not see that a personal imputation has been made.
  SIR G. CAMPBELL: But, Sir, there is another point. I have often attacked bogus companies, and so have my hon. Friends. [Cries of "Order!"]
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order! There is no personal question concerned.
  SIR G. CAMPBELL: Might I, Sir—[Loud cries of "Order!"]
  MR. SPEAKER: Order, order!

  IRELAND—CASE OF MR. R. P. GILL.
  MR. J. O'CONNOR: I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland whether he has made inquiry into the case of Mr. R. P. Gill, M.I.C.E.,

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  I., a professional gentleman of high standing, employed as architect of the buildings of New Tipperary, who was sentenced at Tipperary Petty Sessions, on Thursday, to a fortnight's imprisonment with hard labour, and ordered to give bail to be of good behaviour for 12 months, for the alleged offence of brushing with his shoulder against a policeman while walking through the street; whether it is true that, although Mr. Grill stated the brushing to have been accidental, and although the only evidence to the contrary was that of the policeman in question, yet the Magistrates refused to increase their sentence so as to admit of an appeal; and whether, if this be the case, the Executive intend to carry out the full measure of the sentence?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. MADDEN,: I am informed that the defendant went out of his direct course and wilfully assaulted a constable by throwing him off the pathway. The Court refused to state a case or to increase the sentence so as to justify an appeal, and the Lord Lieutenant sees no ground to interfere with the action of the Magistrates.
  MR. SEXTON: May I ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman if it is not the fact that two constables were standing upon the public crossing of the street when this gentleman desired to walk along it? The constables refused to make way, and Mr. Gill in passing pushed against the shoulder of one of the constables. The defendant is a respectable person and brother of the hon. Member for Louth. Having regard to the fact that a legal question was raised as to whether there had been an assault at all, and that the Magistrates refused to allow an appeal by declining to state a case or to increase the sentence, I would ask the right hon. and learned Gentleman whether the Government will not direct the release of this gentleman?
  MR. MADDEN: The facts before me do not correspond with those mentioned by the hon. Gentleman. The hon. Member says that there was a legal Question involved in the case. If so, the defendant would have his remedy by going before another tribunal, and it would be wrong for me to express any opinion upon the matter. If wrong has been done to Mr. Gill by the refusal to
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  state a case on a legal question, he will be able to obtain redress.
  MR. SEXTON: I sincerely hope that at this stage of the Session the Government will not think it worth while to insist on this sentence being carried out. It is quite clear from the declaration of the Magistrates themselves that the utmost that occurred was an error of judgment on the part of this gentleman in thinking that he had a right to push past the constable upon a public crossing. Mr. Gill was of opinion that the constables had no right to block up the crossing; but as an appeal to a Superior Court, even upon a legal question, cannot be heard until after the 14 days' imprisonment have expired, I would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether, for the sake of producing harmony in this House, he will not order the release of Mr. Gill?
  MR. MADDEN: I have no right to give any undertaking on the part of the Lord Lieutenant, with whom the decision in the matter rests; but I will submit the statement which has been made by the hon. Gentleman to the proper quarter.
  MR. J. O'CONNOR: The right hon. and learned Gentleman assumes that the Magistrates had no difficulty in arriving at a decision upon the matter. Is it not the fact that during the investigation Mr. Gill asked for a postponement of the sentence until he had an opportunity of bringing up evidence to show what really had occurred, and that the Magistrates refused to accede to his request? Does it not appear to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that this refusal introduced an element of difficulty into the case?
  MR. MADDEN: No, Sir. The information laid before me does not show that any such request was made during the investigation.
  MR. J. O'CONNOR: I have here a verbatim report of what occurred.
  MR. MADDEN: The information supplied to me states that no evidence was called for the defence, but that the defendant addressed the Court, and intimated that he was prepared to repeat his course of action.
  MR. SEXTON: Is it not clear to the right hon. and learned Gentleman that the declaration of the defendant that he would repeat the offence showed that he thought he had a legal right to do so? If there is a

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  question of legal right at issue it is evident that it cannot be settled until the 14 days' imprisonment with hard labour have expired.
  MR. MADDEN: I assume that the Magistrates were of opinion that there was no question of law. The Magistrates may have wrongly decided that no legal question arose, and in that case an application could be made to the Superior Courts. If there is a legal point at issue the Magistrates may be compelled to state a case.
  MR. SEXTON: In which case the sentence will have been served before a decision can be given?
  MR. MADDEN: No, Sir; the defendant being in custody, a judge would sit instantly to hear the application.

  MAIL SERVICE IN THE NORTH OF IRELAND.
  MR. SEXTON: I beg to ask the Postmaster General, with regard to the undertaking given to the Ulster deputation last June, what steps, if any, the Department will take to secure the acceleration of the mail service by the Larne and Stranraer route, which is urgently required by the commercial and general interests in the North of Ireland?
  A LORD OF THE TREASURY (Sir H. MAXWELL,: If the hon. Gentleman will repeat the question on Monday, I will endeavour to obtain the information.
  MR. SEXTON: I must remind the hon. Gentleman that it is a question which concerns most important interests in the North of Ireland, and one which ought not to be treated by the Department with contempt. Unless effective action is taken during the Recess, I shall at the opening of the Session call attention to the promise made by the Postmaster General in June and his failure to fulfil it.

  EX-LIEUTENANT COLONEL BROWNING.
  MR. CONYBEARE: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for War whether, with reference to the fact that Mrs. Browning, the wife of ex-Lieutenant Colonel Browning, has been refused a grant of compassionate allowance by the War Office, notwithstanding the precedent raised in the case of Mrs. Woods, who has received such a
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  grant, and the fact that ex-Lieutenant Colonel Browning, who is now in the 59th year of his age, and unable to-obtain any appointment, has served Her Majesty and the country for 30 years and five months at home and abroad, and his retired pay has been stopped by the War Office; and why (as the cases of these two ladies, both being in distressed circumstances, are precisely similar) has one lady received such a grant and the other lady been refused it?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. E. STANHOPE,: I have not received sufficient notice of this question to enable me to answer it to-day.

  THE OLPHERT ESTATE.
  MR. DALTON: I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland whether he is aware that a licence for a pound at Ballyconnell on the Olphert Estate has recently been granted in a place which has none of the qualifications necessary for a pound, and is actually part of a farmyard at Ballyconnell House, to which there is no access except through Mr. Olphert's private grounds; what necessity there is for a pound in this place; and whether the licence will be withdrawn if it should be found on inquiry that no necessity exists for this pound?
  MR. MADDEN: I am informed that a licence was granted some years ago for the pound in question, and I believe that there is free access to it.
  MR. DALTON: I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland whether his attention has been called to a Circular addressed to the Magistrates of the County of Donegal giving notice that a special Sessions of the Justices of the Peace of the said county, to be held at Lifford on the 11th August instant, for the purpose of considering the necessity of applying to the Lord Lieutenant for an extra force of constabulary, to replace the same number of men of the reserve force at the Royal Constabulary Depêt, which for some time past has been serving in this county; can he state what is the necessity for taxing this district with extra police; and if he can state how many police stations are now on the Olphert Estate, how many policemen are stationed there, how are they paid, and what does Mr. Olphert receive for

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  barracks and stations? I also wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman if he can state how many licensed pounds are now on the Olphert Estate, who granted the licences, who are the pound keepers, and have they entered into recognisances; and, if so, who are the sureties; whether these places have any of the qualifications necessary for a pound; whether he can state the charges made by the bailiffs for sheep that are on their way to the pound or in the pound; how much money has been collected off the district for trespass within the past six months, and to whom does this money go; whether the police are authorised in assisting to drive cattle and sheep to these pounds; and whether he is aware that on the 11th August six bailiffs and three policemen made a raid on the waste lands of Glashercoo and took away 47 sheep from a vacant house in which they were penned, and which were not grazing on the land or doing any damage whatever, and on their way to the pound also took along some sheep grazing by the roadside?
  MR. MADDEN: I have not yet received Reports upon these questions.

  EVICTIONS IN CASTLEISLAND.
  DR. TANNER: I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland whether it is true that, on Thursday 14th instant, Mr. Marmion evicted a number of tenants from their dwellings at Castle-island, near Schull, County Cork, and subsequently levelled the houses; and whether it is a fact that these houses were built by the tenants out of money advanced by the Board of Works?
  MR. MADDEN: I must also ask the hon. Gentleman to defer this question on the ground of insufficient notice.
  MR. DALTON: Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman be able to answer them on Monday?
  MR. MADDEN: I am unable to say.
  MR. DALTON: At any rate, I will put them down for Monday.

  FAILURE OF THE POTATO CROP IN WEST CORK.
  MR. DONAL SULLIVAN: I beg to ask the Attorney General for Ireland whether he has received Reports of a failure of the potato crop in the neighbourhood of Bantry in West Cork, and of impending distress in the
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  district; and whether, with reference to the railway extension at Bantry, involving an expenditure of £30,000, promoted under the Light Railways Act by the Cork and Bandon Railway Company, who not only offer to work the line, but to contribute one-fourth of the cost, inasmuch as this railway has passed the Grand Jury, the works could be set going long before any operations can be commenced under the Railways (Ireland) Bill of this Session if the Treasury will sanction the advance of money recommended by the Board of Works, and whether he will urge on the Treasury the desirability of taking immediate action in the winter?
  MR. MADDEN: I have not yet received the information that will enable me to answer the question.

  OUTRAGES IN THE NORTH OF IRELAND.
  MR. SEXTON: I have no wish to trouble the House on Monday with the case to which I have already drawn attention of the brutal outrages upon Catholics in Belfast, but I beg to give notice, that unless the Government will promise to carry out the recommendations of the Royal Commission of 1886, it will be my duty at the earliest possible moment next Session to endeavour to fix the responsibility for these outrages.

  ARRESTS FOR DRUNKENNESS ON SUNDAY (SCOTLAND).
  Return ordered—
  "Of all Convictions since the 29th day of September, 1887, of all Persons arrested for Drunkenness on Sunday in Scotland, giving the number in each particular County or Burgh, with the population of each such County or Burgh (in continuation of Parliamentary Papers, No. 14 of Session 1885, and Nos. 57 and 315 of Session 1887."—(Mr. Kimber.)

  POOR RATE (METROPOLIS) BILL. (No. 135.)
  Order for Second Reading read, and discharged.
  Bill withdrawn.

  SITTINGS OF THE HOUSE.
  Resolved, That this House do meet upon Monday next, at 11 o'clock. —(Mr. Jackson.)
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  CONSOLIDATED FUND (APPROPRIA TION) BILL.

    COMMITTEE.
    Bill considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    Clause 1.
    MR. J. O'CONNOR: I am very reluctant to trouble the Committee with any remarks at this late period of the Session; but disinclined as I am to encroach upon the time of the Committee, I am obliged to forego my original intention by what has transpired lately and the incidents which have taken place recently at the New Tipperary. On this occasion I propose to draw attention to what I conceive to have been an outrage committed upon a most respectable man.
    THE CHAIRMAN: Order, order! I fail to see how the hon. Member can raise a question of this kind upon the clause now before the Committee.
    Question, "That Clause 1 stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    Clause 2.
    MR. SEXTON: Upon the question of order, you have ruled, Mr. Courtney, that any discussion at this stage of the Bill must be relevant to the clauses. Will it be in order to raise a general discussion upon the Third Reading?
    THE CHAIRMAN: That will be a question for the Speaker.
    Question, "That Clause 2 stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.
    Remaining Clauses agreed to.
    Bill reported without Amendment; to be read the third time on Monday next.

    RAILWAYS, &c., RETURN TICKETS BILL.—(No. 217.)
    MR. MORTON: I beg to move the discharge of the Order for the Second Reading of this Bill. It is no use at this period of the Session to attempt to proceed further with it, but the proposal has received so much support that I wish to say I shall take
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    the earliest opportunity next Session of bringing the measure forward again.
    Order for Second Reading read, and discharged.
    Bill withdrawn.

    ADJOURNMENT.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Jackson.)
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

    FINANCIAL RELATIONS (ENGLAND, SCOTLAND, AND IRELAND).
    Ordered, That the Select Committee on Financial Relations (England, Scotland, and Ireland), have leave to sit this day, notwithstanding the adjournment of the House.—(Mr. Sexton.)

    ADJOURNMENT.
    Motion made, and Question, "That this House do now adjourn,"—(Mr. Jackson,)—put, and agreed to.
    House adjourned at half after Twelve o'clock till Monday next.