Sitting of 31 January 1887

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEES—Public Petitions, appointed and nominated; Printing, appointed and nominated; Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms (House of Commons), appointed and nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS—Resolution in Committee—Ordered—First Reading—Merchandise Marks Act (1862) Amendment* [142].
Ordered—First Reading—Parliamentary Franchise (Extension to Women)* [128]; Borough Funds* [129]: Coal Mines, &c. Regulation* [130]; Criminal Law (Scotland) Procedure* [131]; First Offenders* [132]; Agricultural Tenants Relief* [133]; Deacons (Church of England)* [134]: Hyde Park Corner (New Streets)* [135]: Public Parks and Works (Metropolis)* [136]; Lodgers' Goods Protection Act (1871) Amendment* [137]; Ballot Act (1872) Amendment* [138]; Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sunday (Cornwall)* [139]; Miners' Wages Payment* [140]; Water Companies (Regulation of Powers)* [141]; Rod Fishing (Scotland)* [143]; Sites for Churches, &c. Ireland* [144]; Sanitation of Houses (Metropolis)* [145].
Second Reading—Supreme Court of Judicature (Ireland)* [1].
PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL—Ordered—First Reading —Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland)* [127].

MOTION.

  NEW WRIT FOR THE BOROUGH OF ST. GEORGE'S, HANOVER SQUARE.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a New Writ for the electing of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Saint George's, Hanover Square, in the room of Algernon Malcolm Arthur Percy, esquire, commonly called Lord Algernon Malcolm Arthur Percy, who since his Election for the said Borough hath accepted the Office of Steward or Bailiff of Her Majesty's Manor of North-stead, in the County of York."—(Mr. Akers-Douglas.)
  SIR WILFRID LAWSON: I rise, Sir, as an elector for the Division of St. George's, Hanover Square. It appears to me that this is a very hasty proceeding. The constituency has had no information until this morning that there was likely to be a vacancy. Do you not think, Sir, that it would be more seemly to delay the issue of this Writ, at any rate until to-morrow? I think Notice ought to have been given formally before the Writ was moved; and if the Motion is pressed I shall take the liberty of moving that the debate be adjourned.
  After a pause—
  SIR WILFRID LAWSON: I move that the debate be now adjourned.
  MR. SPEAKER: Does any hon. Member second that Motion?
  MR. CONYBEARE: I beg to second the Motion, Sir.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned." —(Sir Wilfrid Lauson.)
  The House divided:—Ayes 93; Noes 173: Majority 80.—(Div. List, No 1.)
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  Ordered, That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a New Writ for the electing of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the Borough of Saint George's, Hanover Square, in the room of Algernon Malcolm Arthur Percy, esquire, commonly called Lord Algernon Malcolm Arthur Percy, who since his Election for the said Borough hath accepted the Office of Steward or Bailiff of Her Majesty's Manor of Northstead, in the County of York.

QUESTIONS.

  SCOTLAND—THE TRUCK ACTS—MINES AND WORKS IN SCOTLAND.
  MR. BRADLAUGHasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he can now give the House any information as to the inquiries promised last Session into the alleged prevalence of Truck in Scotland; whether any breaches of the Truck Acts have been discovered, and to what extent; whether any and what steps have in any case been taken to enforce the law; and. if no prosecutions have taken place, whether he will state the reasons for not prosecuting; and, whether he is prepared to lay upon the Table of the House the various statements made to him alleging breaches of the Truck Acts in Scotland, and the correspondence thereon with the Inspectors of Mines, Inspectors of Factories, and other officials?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. MATTHEWS), in reply, said, the Report of the Chief Inspector of Factories in Scotland was now in the hands of the printer, and as soon as it was ready he would be happy to show it to the hon. Member. He believed it would contain answers to several of the hon. Member's Questions; but he could not anticipate the Report. He must decline to lay on the Table any documents which were of a confidential character, or that related to matters that might lead to a prosecution.

  BURMAH—MILITARY EXPEDITION TO THE RUBY MINES—MESSRS. STREETER.
  MR. BRADLAUGHasked the Under Secretary of State for

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  India, Whether any gentlemen connected with Messrs. Streeter, jewellers, London, were present with the military expedition to the Ruby Mines in Burmah; and, if yes, in what capacity they were present, and by whose permission or authority; and, whether any agreement has been made between the Government and any person relative to the working of such mines?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Sir JOHN GORST): Mr. Streeter, junior, accompanied the expedition to the Ruby Mines in Burmah, in his private capacity, with the permission of the British authorities. No agreement has been made between the Government and any person relative to working the mines.

  LAW AND JUSTICE—CASE OF THOMAS THOMPSON, CONVICTED OF MURDER.
  MR. W. H. JAMESasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he has directed, or proposes to direct, an inquiry to take place into the mental condition of Thomas Thompson, now lying under sentence of death in Durham Gaol, for the murder of his child at Gateshead on the 16th instant?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. MATTHEWS), in reply, said, he had directed all such inquiries to be made as were necessary and proper to enable him to advise Her Majesty as to the exercise of her prerogative of mercy; but he could not enter into any detailed statement as to a criminal case still under consideration.

  HAMPTON COURT PALACE—SAFETY OF THE ART TREASURES, &c.
  MR. DIXON-HARTLANDasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether, in view of two fires having taken place at Hampton Court Palace during the last four years, he is prepared to take any, and, if so, what, steps for the preservation of the Art Treasures in that Palace from further risk of destruction?
  THE FIRST COMMISSIONER (Mr. PLUNKET): The question of the safety of the works of art at Hampton Court was carefully considered by a Departmental Committee after the fire which occurred in the Palace in 1882, and on the recommendations of that Committee measures
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  were taken for affording them protection; for instance, structural alterations were made in the galleries, by which they were subdivided into compartments, separated by fireproof partitions; and elaborate arrangements were devised for facilitating the removal of the pictures and tapestries in case of fire. Since the fire of last November the subject has again been very fully gone into by the Departmental Committee; and they have come to the conclusion that the precautions taken after the fire in 1882, with some modifications of detail, are sufficient for the safety of these works of art.
  MR. DIXON-HARTLANDasked if the First Commissioner was satisfied that there was no risk to the pictures in the event of another fire breaking out? There had been two fires in four years.
  MR. PLUNKETsaid, he was satisfied that the pictures were as safe in Hampton Court as they could be in almost any building they could be removed to; and certainly the country air, he was assured on the best authority, agreed with them better than London air would do.

  LAW AND JUSTICE—THE REVISED STATUTES—ISSUE OF A NEW AND CHEAP EDITION.
  MR. HOWELLasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the Government has, during the Recess, considered the question addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer last Session, as to the advisability of issuing in a cheaper form a new and revised edition of the Statutes, with Index and Tables up to date; and, whether Her Majesty's Government will undertake that such new edition shall be issued with the view of bringing the Statute Law of England within the means and reach of a larger class of readers?
  THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. H. SMITH): I am informed that the question of a new and revised edition of the Statutes is under the consideration of the Statute Law Committee, and with it the question of a cheaper form of edition. The Committee have not, as yet, made their formal recommendation, as there are many details connected with a new edition which require settlement; but I may be allowed to state that I sympathize with the object which the hon. Member has in view, and I hope it may be attained.

  LAW AND JUSTICE—CODIFICATION OF THE CRIMINAL LAW.
  MR. HOWELLasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the Government has considered the question addressed to the Chancellor of the Exchequer last Session, as to the advisability of introducing a Bill during the present Session to Consolidate and Codify the Criminal Law; and, whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce a Bill with that object this Session?
  THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. H. SMITH): It is not the intention of the Government to introduce a Bill during this Session to consolidate and codify the Criminal Law; but certain proposals with regard to the amendment of the Criminal Law will be brought before Parliament.

  COMMISSIONERS OF EDUCATION (IRELAND)—SCHOOL LANDS AT CAVAN.
  MR. BIGGARasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. Whether the Commissioners of Education, of which body the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Lord Chancellor, and Senior Member of Dublin University, are ex-officio members, were applied to early in November, and again in December, 1886, by the tenants on the school lands adjoining Cavan, for an abatement in the year's rent; whether they were guided by the advice of their land agent, J. J. Benison, Ballyconnell, in offering on 10 per cent; whether the same land, agent last year, when agricultural produce brought much higher prices, advised a reduction of 15 per cent; whether, whilst negotiations were proceeding between the tenants and Commissioners, within the knowledge of Mr. Benison, he issued civil bills and ejectments against a number of the tenants; whether, notwithstanding the production in Court of Letters from seven of the Commissioners denying all knowledge of the matter, he pressed for and obtained decrees; whether a number of the tenantry have lodged with the secretary declarations of their inability to pay; and, whether, under these conditions, he, acting as one of the Board, will permit the enforcement of these decrees?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH):
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  I find from a Report, made by the Secretary to the Commissioners of Education, that the Board was applied to in November and December last by the Cavan tenants for an abatement in the year's rent. The matter received the most careful consideration of the Commissioners, and they resolved to grant an abatement of 10 per cent. The Board declined to disclose the confidential communications made between themselves and their agent. No negotiations were proceeding between the tenants and the Commissioners at the time that the civil bills for rent and one ejectment process were issued by the agent, Mr. Benison. The resolution of the Board to grant 10 per cent abatement had been arrived at in November, and confirmed in December, and this offer of 10 per cent had been made by Mr. Benison to the tenants. The tenants had been informed by the Secretary that all communications with the Board should be made through Mr. Benison, and in reply their representative stated that he was of opinion they would not do so. Mr. Benison appointed the 9th of December for payment of rent, when the tenants refused to meet him. He again appointed the 22nd of December, when but one tenant paid. It was thereupon that the agent issued civil bills for rent and one ejectment process. Upon the 22nd of December the tenants wrote to the Board, and a few days later to various members of the Board individually, to the effect that they did not consider the 10 per cent abatement sufficient, and requesting that the matter should be again considered. At the next meeting (January 13) the Commissioners decided not to alter their previous decisions. The Board have no information as to any letters from individual members produced in Court. Ten of the tenants have within the past week forwarded through the post to the Secretary declarations of their inability to pay their rents. The constitution of the Board being well known, it can hardly be necessary that I should trouble the House by repeating the names of the Commissioners. The quorum is fixed by the Statute at three, and the average attendance was, I am informed, rather above that number in the period mentioned. The Commissioners do not feel called upon to publish the names of the members of their body present at any particular meeting. It is

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  a fact that the Chief Secretary for Ireland was made an ex-officio member of this Board by a Statute parsed in 1813. But as no Chief Secretary has attended the meetings for many years, and I am quite unable to do so, I can take no responsibility for the acts of the Board.

  LAND LAW (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—SUB- COMMISSIONERS—SITTINGS AT KILKENNY.
  MR. CHANCEasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the sitting of the Sub-Commissioners under "The Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881," at Kilkenny has been postponed from a date before to a date after the 25th March next; whether, in consequence of such postponement, tenants who have applied to have fair rents fixed will become liable to the payment of a half-year's rent, from the 25th March next, at a rate which the said Sub-Commissioners' decisions may show to be unjust and excessive; and, whether steps will be taken to have the sittings of the Sub-Commissioners held before the above date?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): The Land Commissioners inform me that the sitting of the Sub-Commission at Kilkenny is fixed for a date prior to the 25th of March—namely, the 15th of March—and that there is no intention of postponing it.

  METROPOLIS—RENEWAL OF THE COAL AND WINE DUES.
  MR. BUXTONasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the Government adhere to the decision of the noble Lord the Member for Paddington in regard to the renewal of the Coal and Wine Dues; or, whether they intend to support the renewal of these dues; if so, whether they will strictly limit the period of renewal, and will secure that the proceeds of the dues shall be applied to the erection of free communications across the Thames east of Tower Bridge, and of open spaces in London generally?
  THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. H. SMITH): In answer to the hon. Member, it is the intention of the Government to adhere to the declarations of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Lord Randolph
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  Churchill) on the subject of the Coal and Wine Dues; but I must remind the hon. Gentleman that my noble Friend expressly invited the inhabitants of the districts affected by the proposals in question to make their wishes known to Parliament through their Representative Bodies and their Members in this House; and he assured them that due consideration would be given by Her Majesty's Government to those opinions when they were expressed.

  LIGHTHOUSE ILLUMINANTS—EXPERIMENTS AT THE SOUTH FORELAND.
  MR. T. W. RUSSELLasked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Trade, When the Correspondence between the Trinity House, the Board of Trade, Mr. J. R. Wigham, Mr. Howard Grubb, F.R.S., Professor Barrett, and shipowners of various ports, on the subject of the Report of the Trinity House on the experiments made by that Corporation with lighthouse illuminants at South Foreland, which at the close of last Session the right hon. Gentleman promised should be laid on the Table as soon as practicable, will be ready for presentation to Parliament?
  THE SECRETARY (Baron HENRY DE WORMS): The Correspondence referred to by the hon. Member was laid by me on the Table of the House and ordered to be printed on Thursday last.

  ORANGE SOCIETIES—OFFICERS OF THE ARMY AND MILITIA.
  MR. P. O'BRIENasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he is aware that officers of the Army and Militia in the North of Ireland are members of Orange Lodges in the districts where they are stationed; whether an Address was carried in this House in 1836, praying His Majesty to take such measures as should be effectual for the suppression of Orange Societies; whether, in consequence of this Resolution of the House of Commons, orders were issued from the War Office prohibiting all persons in the Naval or Military Service from having any connection with Orangeism; whether Queen's Regulations were also issued by Her Majesty to the same effect; and, whether such Regulations are still in force;

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  and, if not, whether, in view of recent events in the North of Ireland, and particularly of the fact that it has been necessary to rely largely on the Military for the suppression of riots, in which Orangemen take a large part, it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to re-issue or enforce these Regulations?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. E. STANHOPE)(who replied) said: In answer to the first Question, I would say that I have no knowledge of the political views of officers in the Army in their private capacities, and therefore I have no means of knowing whether they belong to Orange Lodges or not. As to the second and third Questions, such an Address was carried in Parliament on the 11th of August, 1835, and an Order was issued by the Adjutant General on the 31st of August, 1835, peremptorily forbidding the attendance of either officer or soldier at Orange Lodges, by whomsoever or wheresoever held. Fourthly, the King's Regulations of June 1, 1837, embodied the Order of 1835, and it was included in any edition of the Queen's Regulations up to the year 1868. Since then it has not been considered necessary to refer specifically in the Queen's Regulations to Orange Lodges; but the end is held to be sufficiently met by the Regulation still in force, which prohibits officers and soldiers from instituting or taking any part in any meeting, demonstration, or procession for party or political purposes, in barracks, quarters, or camp, or in their vicinity and anywhere, if in uniform. I would, at the same time, refer to the answer made by the noble Marquess the Member for Rossendale (the Marquess of Hartington) on February 21, 1884, in which he refused to regard a military man as being deprived of his civil rights, which he would be, if debarred entirely from attending political meetings. With that opinion I agree.

  EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY ACTS—LEGISLATION.
  MR. BROADHURSTasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether it is the intention of the Government to propose legislation this Session on the question of employers' liability for injuries to their workpeople?
  THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W.H. SMITH): Yes; it is the intention of the Government to propose legislation this Session dealing with the question of employers' liability for injuries to their workpeople.

  ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY—THE LABOURERS (IRELAND) ACTS.
  MR. O'HEAasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If, having regard to the importance of the work in connection with the Labourers' Ireland Acts, and the desirability of having services of the various forms under those Acts properly effected, he will give a direction to the Inspector General of the Royal Irish Constabulary to have those services effected by the members of the police force, in the same way as voting papers in connection with the election of Poor Law Guardians are served by them upon the persons entitled to vote at those elections?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): The Government are not aware of any reason why the Sanitary Authority should not continue to perform this duty, and they are not prepared at present to throw it on the Constabulary.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSIONERS—SALE OF LAND, CO. DONEGAL.
  MR. BIGGARasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether it is true, as reported, that the Irish Land Commissioners have sanctioned the sale by Messrs. Musgrave, of Belfast, of the lands of Fannett, county Donegal, to the tenants at 20 years' purchase; whether it is a fact that the lands are of very inferior quality; whether many of the tenants are on the verge of pauperism; and, whether the Government are going to continue to lend the money of the British taxpayer on such security?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): The Land Commissioners inform me that they have not even provisionally sanctioned any such sales as are here mentioned. Eight applications have been received from tenants of the Messrs. Musgrave; but they have not yet been considered. No doubt the Commissioners will satisfy themselves as to the

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  security before they arrive at any decision.

  ARMY—QUARTERMASTERS AND RIDING MASTERS.
  COLONEL DUNCANasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether, under the Royal Warrant which was to take effect from 1st October 1886, any Quartermasters or Ridingmasters have received the local rank of Major as being in performance of special duties?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. E. STANHOPE): The honorary rank of Major has not yet been conferred on Quartermasters or Ridingmasters under the Royal Warrant of November 3, 1886. The selection of officers for this advancement is still under consideration.

  INLAND REVENUE—THE CARRIAGE TAX AND GUN TAX.
  MR. ANDERSONasked the First Lord of the Treasury, If he has considered a recent communication addressed to him on the subject of the repeal of the Carriage Tax and the Gun Tax; and, whether any decision thereon has been arrived at by Her Majesty's Government?
  THE FIRST LORD (Mr. W. H. SMITH): I am sure the hon. Member will see that it is impossible for the Government to give any information as to the provisions of the Budget before it is stated to the House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

  SCOTLAND—THE WESTERN ISLANDS— PROCURATORS FISCAL.
  MR. BARCLAYasked the Lord Advocate, Whether he has succeeded in the negotiations entered into by his Predecessor in Office with certain Procurators Fiscal in the Western Islands of Scotland, with the object of preventing them from engaging in private business while they act at the same time as public prosecutors; and, if not, whether he intends to take any steps to carry out such a reform?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. H. A. MACDONALD): I am not aware of more than two cases where negotiations have been entered into with Procurators Fiscal for the object mentioned by the
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  hon. Member. The first is the case of the Procurator Fiscal of Inverness-shire at Portree, in which the arrangement is complete, I believe, although, in consequence of not having received an answer to my telegram, I cannot say definitely. The other case is that of the Procurator Fiscal of Stornoway, where there has been a change recently; but that case is now under the consideration of the Treasury. I am making inquiries to ascertain if any negotiations have been entered into with other Fiscals. I have given consideration to the question, and I am now in communication with the Treasury in regard to it, but am not able, at present, to answer any general Question.

  POST OFFICE—CONVEYANCE OF MAILS TO THE GAMBIA.
  MR. M'ARTHURasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether the subsidy for the conveyance of Mails to the British Settlements on the Gambia has been withdrawn from the British and African Steam Navigation Company; whether an arrangement for the transference of the Mails has been made with a French Company viâ Bordeaux and Dakan; and, if so, whether Her Majesty's Government will consider the expediency of re-establishing direct Mail communication between this Country and the Gambia?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Sir HENRY HOLLAND): The subsidy of £1,200 a-year has been withdrawn. It was paid by Gambia, in addition to the sea postage of 4d. per letter, and a remission of port dues. No other West African Government pays a subsidy; and, owing to the financial condition of the Colony, my right hon. Predecessor (Mr. E. Stanhope) found it necessary, among other economies, to place the Gambia Mail arrangements on the same footing as those of the other West African Colonies. No contract has been made with a French or any other Company. I may add that I have received an offer from the British and African Steam Navigation Company to carry the mails temporarily at a reduced subsidy, which will receive my careful consideration; but, as at present advised, I doubt whether the Colony can afford to pay any subsidy. Papers will be presented on the subject.
  LORD CLAUD HAMILTON: I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman, Whether he will give an undertaking that no final settlement of this matter will be arrived at until the House has had an opportunity of considering it?
  SIR HENRY HOLLAND: No, Sir; I do not think that I can give that undertaking.

  SCOTLAND—THE SKYE CROFTERS— SHERIFF IVORY.
  DR. CLARKasked the Secretary for Scotland, If it is true, as stated by The Scottish Highlander, that Sheriff Ivory had been reprimanded for the action he took in regard to the control of the police during the late expedition to Skye; and, if he will lay a Copy of the official Correspondence on this matter upon the Table of the House?
  THE SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR): It is not usual, and would not be to the advantage of the Public Service, to lay the Correspondence referred to on the Table of the House. It is not accurate to say that Sheriff Ivory has been reprimanded.

  AFFAIRS OF SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE —AUSTRIA AND RUSSIA.
  MR. LABOUCHEREasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether his attention has been called to an article in The Fortnightly Review, in which it is stated that a Despatch was sent to Vienna by Her Majesty's Government, offering the support of England to Austria, in the event of a war between that Power and Russia; and to a statement in The Pall Mall Gazette that such Despatch was sent to Vienna, but its presentation stopped by telegraph; and, whether either of these statements is correct; and, if so, whether the Despatch in question will be laid before Parliament?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Sir JAMES FERGUSSON): There is no truth in the statement that such a Despatch was sent; and it necessarily follows that there is no truth in the statement that its presentation was stopped by telegraph. I may add that I have read the article in The Fortnightly Review for January, to which the hon. Member refers; but I do not find the statement
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  professed to be quoted from it by The Pall Mall Gazette.

  RAILWAYS—RETURN OF RATES FOR CARRIAGE OF ENGLISH AND FOREIGN PRODUCE.
  MR. DIXON-HARTLANDasked the Secretary to the Board of Trade, The cause why the Railway Companies have not yet handed in the Returns of the Rates for the Carriage of English and Foreign Produce, ordered by the House as long ago as the 9th April last?
  THE SECRETARY (Baron HENRY DE WORMS): The Return in question is in the hands of the printers, and will be circulated immediately.

  THE ECCLESIASTICAL COMMISSIONERS —RETURN OF DUES, &c.
  MR. CONYBEAREasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he will cause to be prepared a Return similar to that recently granted, on the Motion of the hon. Member for the Chester-le-Street Division of Durham (Mr. Joicey), showing in respect of each of the remaining counties in England and Wales, the amount of all dues, royalties, rents, wayleaves, and water or other charges paid and payable to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners in each of the years 1881–86 by all mines, collieries, quarries, claysetts, and other mineral or metalliferous workings?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. STUART-WORTLEY)(who replied) said: The hon. Member can have a Return in the same form as that granted last year with regard to the county of Durham.

  ARMY—THE ROYAL HORSE ARTILLERY.
  COLONEL HAMILTONasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether the pay of the non-commissioned officers and men of the batteries of Royal Horse Artillery, ordered to be converted into batteries of Field Artillery, is to be reduced from the date of conversion; and, if so, whether any compensation will be given to them?
  THE SECRETARY OF STATE (Mr. E. STANHOPE): The pay of the non-commis-

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  sioned officers and men referred to will be reduced to that of the Field Artillery from the 1st of April. Compensation will not be given to them; but as opportunities offer those who may be recommended for it will be re-posted to the Horse Artillery. I may add that men for the Royal Artillery are enlisted for the corps generally, and not for service in any particular branch of it.

  AGRARIAN OUTRAGES (IRELAND)— THE RETURNS.
  MR. J. E. ELLISasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, When the Return of Agrarian Outrages (Ireland), for the quarter ended 31st December, 1886, will be in the hands of Members?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): The Return has already been sent on from the Irish Office for presentation, and no doubt it will be forthwith laid on the Table.

  BELFAST RIOTS—THE REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION.
  MR. SEXTONasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether, considering that the Belfast riots inquiry closed more than three months ago, the Government had yet received from the dissenting Commissioner, Mr. M'Hardy, his Report; and, what steps the Government intended to take to press forward arrangements for the preservation of the peace in Belfast, in view of the recurrence of serious disturbances within the last few days?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH), in reply, said, he would remind the hon. Member for West Belfast that the other four Commissioners only presented their Report a week ago. He did not doubt that Mr. M'Hardy would present his Report very shortly. It was obviously desirable that the matter should be considered at once; but he did not think it would be wise to attempt hurried legislation on account of the unfortunate outbreak of Saturday.

  EGYPT—THE SOUDAN—RELIEF OF EMIN BEY.
  MR. JUSTIN HUNTLY M'CARTHYasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he was in a
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  position to give the House any information with regard to the reported escape of Emin Bey?
  THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE (Sir JAMES FERGUSSON): No, Sir; no intelligence of that kind had been received up to the time I left the Foreign Office.

  EVICTIONS (IRELAND)—THE GLEN- BEIGH EVICTIONS.
  MR. O'HEAasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether it was the intention of the Crown to persevere with the prosecution of the tenants evicted from their homes; and, if so, why the trials were not gone on with?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH), in reply, said, he had not received. Notice of the Question; and, so far as he could gather, it should be addressed to the Attorney General for Ireland.
  MR. O'HEAsaid, he would repeat the Question. ["Order!"] He called at the Irish Office the other day—["Order!"] Well, he would repeat the Question the next day.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.

    ADJOURNED DEBATE. [THIRD NIGHT.]
    Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [27th January.]— "That, &c." [See page 84.]
    Question again proposed.
    Debate resumed.
    MR. BRADLAUGHsaid, he was desirous of calling the attention of the House to the systematic breaches of the Truck Act alleged to have taken place in Scotland. He had brought the matter on previous occasions under the consideration of the Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Henry Matthews), and he knew that the right hon. Gentleman had made inquiries, and he (Mr. Bradlaugh) had had confidential communications from him on the subject; but he desired to know why, in many of the cases, a prosecution had not taken place? He had no doubt that the reason was that, in the opinion of the Home Office, these matters.

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    were too small to be worth, a prosecution; but he submitted that such considerations ought not to weigh at all. When the Government had prosecuted poor crofters for breaches of the law, they ought not to spare the rich manufacturers. In Ayrshire and Lanarkshire breaches of the Truck Act extensively prevailed, and he had brought to the notice of the Home Secretary two cases, in which it was utterly impossible, if proper inquiries were made, to fail in bringing home the guilt to the person in each instance. He admitted that the owners were very rich men; that they were men of influence, men of great respectability; but, having agreed with the desire of the Government to have the law enforced elsewhere, he suggested that it would be as well to enforce it fairly. Unless the law was enforced fairly and impartially as well against men of influence, respectability, and riches as against the poor, it might lead to misapprehension as to the manner in which justice was administered, and the gravest results might follow. Coming to the Address which the House was asked to vote, he remarked that there was in the very first paragraph a statement that there was no apprehension that any disturbance to the European peace would result from the unadjusted disputes which had arisen in South-Eastern Europe; but not quite 20 minutes before that Speech was communicated to the House they had heard read by the noble Lord opposite (Lord Randolph Churchill) a letter from the Prime Minister, in which he stated that the outlook on the Continent was very black, and that it was not too much to say that the chances were in favour of war at an early date. Now, he should feel a difficulty in voting for an Address until he knew what the meaning of that language was. If it meant that there was no danger of war except in relation to Bulgaria, then he thought it would have been franker for the Government to have let that be really stated. If it did not mean that—if the larger phrase included the lesser, then he wanted to know whether any other favourable incident than that of the resignation of the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington had happened since the letter of the 22nd December was written, to lead to hopes of peace? Before voting the Address, he thought the
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    House was entitled to some very clear and distinct information on this point, especially as they had been told by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer that he found objection to the foreign policy of the Cabinet—that he regarded it as unwise, and as likely to bring us into difficulties with Austria, Russia, Germany, and France.
    LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: Read my words.
    MR. BRADLAUGHsaid, he would do so. If he had not correctly translated the words of the noble Lord it was his obtuseness. The noble Lord's words were: —
    "A wise foreign policy will extricate England from Continental struggles, and keep her outside German, Russian, French, or Austrian disputes. I have for some time observed a tendency in the Government attitude to pursue a different line of action, which I have not been able to modify or check."
    He apologized to the noble Lord if he had not correctly translated his words, and he quite agreed with him that the policy of the Government had been an unwise and irritating policy, and a policy likely to lead to war and a considerably increased military expenditure. He hoped the noble Lord would tell the House what were the particular points in which he thought his Colleagues not wise in reference to Russia and France, and on which he tried to check them and failed, and the manner in which he tried to check them. Supposing they did not understand the explanations of the noble Lord or of the Government, he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House (Mr. W. H. Smith) when they would have Papers relating to these subjects in their hands? It was quite impossible to vote the Address without knowing whether the Government meant peace or war. The country was against war; it was against that pretence of assertion in the interference with affairs with which they had no concern which had increased our Expenditure year by year. Turning to the second paragraph of the Royal Speech, referring to the affairs of Egypt, he wished to ask Her Majesty's Government whether it was true that the English Government had agreed that the cost of the Egyptian garrison in Suakin was to be paid by the English taxpayer? If yes, why? Whether that cost amounted now to

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    £73,080 a-year, or what other sum? If yes, how long the people of this country were to contribute £73,000 to the Egyptian Government for the government of a town in which they had no interest whatever? He further asked whether it was true that the English Government handed over to the Egyptian Government at Suakin stores which cost this country £15,404, without getting a solitary farthing for them? If yes, why? Whether the Egyptian Government had applied to Her Majesty's Government for stores for Suakin amounting to £14,660, and how much Her Majesty's Government had supplied? Whether there were other stores, valued at a considerable sum, which had also been handed over, and whether these concessions were not some of the fortunate results of Sir H. Drummond Wolff's Special Mission in Egypt? Trifling matters of that kind, he knew, did not weigh very much with the Government, but they did with people outside, who saw their tax bill swelling, and who wanted to know why it should be swollen in relation to Egypt—why, when their wages were being reduced, when they were compelled to work short time, they should be asked to contribute to the conduct of military affairs, not only by the English Government, but the Egyptian Government, over which they had no control? With reference to Burmah, they were informed by the Royal Speech that the district of Upper Burmah had been occupied without opposition by Her Majesty's Forces. He was at a loss to understand how it could be said that the country was occupied without opposition, if the accounts which had appeared from time to time in The Times were correct as to attacks on armed stockades, and fights with Natives, and other military operations. He asked whether the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for India (Sir John Gorst) considered an attack upon an armed village in the light of a fight; whether he considered an armed stockade assaulted by our men with great gallantry in the light of something which had the nature of a military operation, or whether the whole of the telegrams which had appeared in the newspapers, stating that the expedition to the Ruby Mines had been conducted with great military skill, with much slaughter of the dacoits who opposed us
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    in several places, and with little loss on our side, were untrue; and whether "without opposition" meant without opposition, or simply without opposition of which the hon. Gentleman (Sir John Gorst) had official knowledge at the time? It had been stated that a representative of the firm of Messrs. Streeter had accompanied the expedition to the Ruby Mines. This was most unfortunate. Why, in a matter of stealing the jewellery of other people, should the Government give preference to one firm over another? Many people would fail to understand why British soldiers—who had died by dozens on the road to these Mines—should die by disease for this object. In November the noble Lord the Member for Paddington refused to listen to pacific proposals made by Burmese Ambassadors to our Ambassador in Paris. These proposals could not be made to our Indian Government, as that Government had again and again refused to receive the Ambassadors. The noble Lord gave as his reason for not listening to these proposals that it was not possible to interfere with the Government of India. How came it, then, that within 48 hours the noble Lord telegraphed to the Viceroy of India instructing General Prendergast to advance at once? In the face of all these experiences, he thought it was not asking too much, before the House voted the Address, that hon. Members should have in their hands Papers which would enable them to form an opinion on the subject for themselves. Turning to Ireland, and particularly to the evictions at Glenbeigh, he understood the Chief Secretary to have suggested that these evictions were really the result of the action of the Land League, whose Plan of Campaign was an attempt to drive tenants into such a position of existence that evictions must necessarily follow. The condition of the people of Glenbeigh did not need any great incitement from the Land League, for General Redvers Buller himself had declared that, in his opinion, a great number of the tenants were nearer famine than the payment of rent. That was the declaration of the Representative of the Government—a declaration frankly accepted by the Chief Secretary. Was it not rather true that the Land League was the outgrowth of the persistent

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    practice of evictions for many generations? He would be the last to deny the exceeding gravity of the question. It was one on which all should unite in trying to get some cure for a disease which everyone admitted, not as the result of Land League violence to day, but which had existed for a century and a-half, and was the offspring of artificial laws made by the English few against the mass of a population who were prevented from earning their livelihood except on the land, and who could only obtain the land under conditions which often rendered earning a livelihood practically impossible for them. This was fruit which grew on a tree whose roots went back a century and a-half, and which should be dealt with without the party strife and bitterness which got imported into a question of this kind. Sometimes Irish representatives used language which he thought wicked, and which hon. Members opposite recalled and denounced. But this did little good. It was hard to refrain from speaking rashly when one's friends were hungry; but, instead of speeches filled with personal attack, it would be better if Parties could unite to find some cure for a disease which everyone admitted to have existed for 150 years, and to have had its origin in social laws made in the interest of the few against the many. The man who had built the wretched hovel, in which hon. Gentlemen opposite would not kennel their dogs—the man who gave the only productive value to the land—might well think that when he was starving he would not be met with the maxim—"From him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath." As an illustration of the effect of evictions, he (Mr. Bradlaugh) would relate a personal anecdote of the year 1851, when he, as a private soldier, formed one of a squadron of dragoons, and assisted in protecting an evicting party, not far from Ballincollig. It was on a bitter winter day; several evictions took place; and on that occasion they levelled the houses—they did not burn them. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary called them houses, but hon. Members opposite would not kennel their dogs in such places. Still they were homes. One of the women, whose goods were turned into the road, threw herself on the snow at the feet of the
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    captain, praying him to allow her tick husband to die under cover of the wretched shelter. The captain had no power to interfere. The man was turned out, and died shortly afterwards. Two nights later he (Mr. Bradlaugh) was sentry at Ballincollig barracks from I till 3 o'clock in the morning, at the front gate of the barracks, and, hearing a moaning, turned out the guard, who discovered the woman, with a dead child in her arms, and the other dying on her breast. The Land League was not dreamt of then. What wonder that these men hated us! The misery in Ireland was the echo of our crimes and of our misconduct. Considering, in conclusion, the declaration of the Government that—
    "Bills for the improvement of Local Government in England and Scotland will be laid before you; and, should circumstances render it possible, they will be followed by a measure dealing with the same subject in Ireland,"
    he would give two pieces of evidence in support of his belief that, with respect to the extension of a measure of local self-government to Ireland, the Government did not intend to make possible the introduction of such a measure. These evidences were the declaration of the Marquess of Salisbury that after 20 years of consistent and resolute government Ireland would be fit to accept any gifts, in the way of local government, which we might think fit to offer, and the further assertion of the Prime Minister that he did not exclude legislation for Ireland, but would recommend as little of it as possible, and that it should be undertaken with as little haste and with as much prudence and caution as they could command. This certainly did not look like rendering it possible for legislation on Irish local government during the present Session.
    LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member who has just sat down always interests the House, and always compresses his remarks with an amount of conciseness and condensation which it would be well if all of us could imitate; but perhaps he will not think me wanting in respect to him if I suggest, as a criticism, that he has hardly been so forcible or felicitous in his contribution to the present debate as he usually is. The hon. Member alluded rather in an interrogatory fashion to the

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    foreign policy of this country, and asked a great many questions of the Government, and he also asked one or two questions of me. He appears to think that it would be proper for me to enter at length into the foreign policy which may have been adopted by the present Government, forgetting that such a course would be most unusual and most improper on my part; for it has been my advantage to possess until a very resent date official information, whereas the House is absolutely destitute of official information on foreign policy. [Ironical cheers from the Opposition.] I do not quite understand that rather precipitate ironical cheering, for I should like to know how a Government can place Parliament in possession of official information on foreign policy until Parliament meets? I understand that the Government are, as rapidly as possible, collecting Papers on the subject, with the view of informing Parliament; but it is obvious that any reference by me to foreign policy before those Papers are presented would be, in the highest degree, unusual and indecorous. But, as the hon. Gentleman has challenged me, I will venture to say this much, which I should have said in any circumstances. I read with the utmost satisfaction, and with entire approval, the Instructions to Sir William White which were communicated to the House by my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. H. Smith). Those Instructions appear to me to have been framed with prudence, caution, and wisdom; and if the spirit of those instructions animate our conduct in the East of Europe, I doubt not at all that Her Majesty's Government will be able materially to assist towards the settlement of the Balkan difficulty. Then the hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton took a most unusual and, I think, a rather unfair course. Suddenly, without the smallest notice, he pounced down upon me with regard to the operations which took place in Burmah more than a year ago, and he seemed to think that I ought to be prepared to answer a question founded on two extracts out of a most voluminous Blue Book on matters with which I was connected some considerable time ago, but which it would be extremely difficult for me to be absolutely accurate about now, considering that since that time
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    many other matters have come before me. The hon. Member asked me why I neglected, as Secretary of State for India, to negotiate with the Burmese Embassy in Paris, and why I replied to them that I could not interfere with the Government of India? I explain to the hon. Gentleman that the Burmese Embassy went to Paris with the object of negotiating with the Government of France for a French protectorate or a French alliance in Burmah, ostensibly against their British neighbours. Consequently, it was obviously impossible for me to enter into official relations with an Embassy which was not in any way recognized by the British Government, when the whole conduct of the Burmese negotiations, which were at that time most critical, were in the hands of the Government of India. I should like to know what the hon. Member and what the House would have thought if, while Lord Dufferin was carrying on a most difficult business in regard to the negotiations before the outbreak of war, I had been carrying on negotiations on my own account with a hostile Embassy in Paris? Then the hon. Member said—"If you could not interfere with the Government of India about the negotiations, how could you send instructions to General Prendergast to advance at once?" My impression is that Lord Dufferin telegraphed to the effect that all his propositions had been peremptorily rejected by King Theebaw, and wished to know whether the Generals should advance; then, having been consulted, the Government sent the Instructions to which the hon. Member referred. I will not be absolutely positive about these matters, because they occurred some time ago, and are extremely complicated. Then the hon. Gentleman passed to the subject of Ireland, and made some remarks about the occurrences at Glenbeigh. He narrated a very interesting anecdote of circumstances of which he was personally a witness, some years ago, in connection with Irish evictions. But how very extraordinary that the hon. Gentleman should endeavour to influence the House and the country and harrow their feelings with Irish miseries and with an anecdote of what took place in 1851. I appeal to the hon. Gentleman—"What has Parliament done for the Irish tenants since 1851?" Par-

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    liament has surrounded the Irish tenants with a triple wall of protection, against nearly all that landlord oppression which undoubtedly used at that time to be exercised by landlords in certain parts of Ireland. How can the hon. Gentleman endeavour to induce the House to suppose that there is the smallest analogy between what takes place now in regard to the eviction of tenants and what took place in 1851? The hon. Gentleman is very much moved by the occurrences at Glenbeigh, and he appears to be disposed to take a favourable view of the action of the National League in regard to these occurrences. I observe that this last winter the hon. Member has been extremely active in dealing with London Socialism. The hon. Member has applied to Mr. Hyndman and Mr. Champion and his follow-Socialists, who were also very anxious to remedy the misery of London, the most rigid and strict principles of the most robust political economy. I do not wish to complain of the hon. Member having done so. In fact, I listened with some admiration to his speech. But I wish he had pointed out to the House why he considers it necessary to apply to the misery of this great Metropolis—which far exceeds, I expect, in extent anything which you can find in Ireland—the strictest and hardest principles of political economy, and why, when he deals with Glenbeigh, he follows the illustrious example of the right hon. Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) in banishing political economy in the case of Ireland to the planets? It would have been extremely interesting had he explained the exact difference which prevents political economy operating in Ireland and enforces it in the Metropolis. The hon. Gentleman did not seem to me to have much fault to find with the government or condition of Ireland, except as regards these evictions at Glenbeigh. On that point my own opinion is that if the landlords of Ireland, who are so cruelly abused, and who, by some persons, are held up as the most execrable of mankind, had desired to have a case put before Parliament, in which their attitude and their treatment of their tenants should have stood a closer and more microscopic examination, and out of which they could have come more favourably to themselves, I do not think they
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    could have found a case more suited to their purpose than the case of Glenbeigh. That is my distinct opinion, after having heard all that has been said in the House, and having read all that has been written in the newspapers on the subject. This must be said for the landlords of Ireland—that during this last winter, as a body, and really, as far as I know, without much exception, they have done their duty; they have put themselves behind the Government; they have supported, as far as they could, the maintenance of law and order; and, in spite of all the injury that Parliament has done them by recent legislation—in spite of the sharp chasm which Parliament has dug between them and their tenants —the great majority of them have united with their tenants, have come and met their tenants, have eased the position of their tenants, and have endeavoured, with their tenants, to carry each other through a time of great difficulty and trial. I was always certain that the landlords of Ireland would adopt that position, and I purposely refrained when I was on that Bench, on every occasion, in spite of the remarks of Gentlemen opposite, from making the smallest appeal to the landlords of Ireland, because I was confident that this course would be adopted. With very few exceptions, indeed, I venture to say the landlords of Ireland have acted a generous, a humane, and a patriotic part. If I were to criticize the Queen's Speech at all in the passage relating to Ireland—it might be hypercritical, perhaps—but I should say the paragraph has been drawn with rather too heavy and dark a brush. You must judge of Ireland at the present moment, comparatively, by remembering carefully all she has gone through during recent years. Ireland, it appears to me, to use the language of metaphor, resembles what is often seen after an immense conflagration, when great quantities of property have been destroyed. Although the conflagration has been put out, there remains a great amount of heat among the ruins, so that it is impossible for days that either the firemen or the Salvage Corps can go to work, and for some time after such a conflagration the flames will break out afresh here and there. But the conflagration has been put out, and in the course of time from these ruins and from these ashes a more solid and.

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    stately structure will arise. That represents the state of Ireland pretty clearly at the present moment. I see nothing unsatisfactory—always speaking comparatively —nothing specially alarming, in the case of Ireland at present. There is, no doubt, a great amount of popular excitement, and a good deal of disorder, and a good deal of violent speaking. There is, in parts, resistance to legal process. But the great feature, and the hopeful feature, is that, in spite of all the prophecies we have heard from hon. Gentlemen opposite that there was going to be such a desperate outbreak this year of what is euphemistically called "the wild justice of revenge," Ireland is practically free from crime at this present moment. That it is so I cannot attribute to the credit of hon. Gentlemen opposite. I cannot think the attitude they have adopted was calculated to repress or diminish crime in Ireland. But the great and main fact, and one which the House may well take notice of and found hope upon, is that crime in Ireland has been reduced to its normal level, and even below its normal level. My right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland has been criticized severely in various quarters, and in quarters where he might have looked for the most cordial consideration and support. I think myself my right hon. Friend is being rewarded for the great sacrifice—one of the greatest sacrifices ever made by any public man—when he accepted the post of Irish Secretary. [Ironical cheers from Home Rulers.] In spite of the ridicule with which hon. Gentlemen opposite seem inclined to meet these remarks, I firmly believe that my right hon. Friend's second administration of Ireland will, if by good fortune it is continued for some time longer, turn out to be more successful and more creditable even than was his first administration. If I might once again employ the language of metaphor in order to deal with all the criticisms poured upon the government of my right hon. Friend—criticisms from those opposite because he has acted in such a way, criticisms from certain people in certain quarters because he has not acted in such a way—I should say this much, that Ireland appears to me at the present moment to be something like a high-spirited and mettlesome horse which has been extremely
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    badly ridden for some time. There is a certain school of professors of political equitation, principally represented by The Times newspaper, who seem to think that the best way to ride a horse of that kind is to be continually jobbing him in the mouth, continually hitting him on the head with the whip, and continually digging him in the side with the spurs. This school of professors persist passionately in the advocacy of these measures, although they see rider after rider laid on his back in the ditch. My right hon. Friend appears to have adopted a better and more scientific method—what I should like to call the firm seat and the light hand, with an occasional gentle pressure with the knees in order to remind your friend that, although you admire his high qualities, and desire to be on the best terms with him, you are perfectly able to guide and control him. This is my right hon. Friend's method, and I hope he will not be taunted out of it by any remarks made from any quarter, whether nominally friendly or openly hostile. Perhaps I may be allowed to make a remark about the Plan of Campaign. I frankly admit—and I hope I shall not shock the House—that I was never much alarmed by this great Plan of Campaign. I always thought it was a singular and strange proceeding; that it attracted a great deal more attention than it ought to have done on account of its singularity and its strangeness; that it has prevailed on a comparatively small scale in Ireland; and that the instances where it has been taken up have been made the most of in the Press. But over by far the greater part of Ireland rents have been fairly paid and legal obligations have been fairly acknowledged. That was my opinion of the Plan of Campaign; and I never was much frightened of the effects which the Plan of Campaign would have on the general government of Ireland. Of course, no man who combines the possession of common sense with the habit of speaking the truth can have the smallest doubt, or difficulty, or hesitation in declaring that the Plan of Campaign is hopelessly immoral and hopelessly illegal; and this much is absolutely certain—that if the Plan of Campaign was not hopelessly immoral from a political point of view, and not hopelessly illegal, it would not have had

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    the smallest merit in the eyes of hon. Gentlemen opposite. Of course, if Irish juries are in so curious a frame of mind at the present moment as to decline to give effect to the judgment of the Law Courts with respect to the Plan of Campaign, the Government will at once ask Parliament for such measures as may be necessary for strengthening and expediting criminal procedure in that country. Parliament will immediately grant them such powers, and in that action Parliament will be supported by the country. Immediately after that action the Plan of Campaign and the Campaigners will disappear either into voluntary or compulsory retirement. Therefore, hon. Gentlemen opposite will not, I hope, take it ill of me if I do not attach much importance to the Plan of Campaign. With regard to the great question of the Union, it is not alluded to in the Queen's Speech. I am glad of it for many reasons. Sir, the great struggle for the maintenance or repeal of the Union, as far as Ireland is concerned, is absolutely over. No doubt it has left behind it in Ireland certain difficulties. It has left behind it the difficulty of great popular excitement, and I agree entirely with my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for North Armagh (Colonel Saunderson) in his most able and brilliant speech on Friday night, when he implored hon. Gentlemen opposite to place more confidence in their own agrarian remedies which they applied when they were in power. I entirely believe that if the Land Act of 1881 and the Land Act of 1885 are allowed time to work they will prove to be a most powerful narcotic for popular excitement in Ireland. But, Sir, the struggle over the Union has also left a great Parliamentary difficulty behind. I have, however, the utmost confidence that the strength, that the resolution and the ingenuity of the House of Commons will be competent to deal with it. But, as far as Ireland is concerned, I look upon the battle of the Union as over. I suspect that if I could take hon. Gentlemen opposite to a quiet room, where no one could over repeat what passed between us, I feel perfectly certain that they would confide the fact that they entirely agreed with me in that view. Now, Sir, I pass to another aspect of the Union, on which the House will, perhaps, allow me to
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    make a remark or two. The battle of the Union may be over in Ireland, but it is not over in England. The battle of the Union has still to be fought out in England. There are various ways of maintaining the Union. I mean from my point of view, and not from that of hon. Gentlemen opposite. There is a certain school of Unionists who, I think, are at the present moment imitating the conduct of the old Ephesians, who thought they could resist and check the progress of the new religion and new social system by perambulating the streets for hours, crying out, "Great is Diana of the Ephesians." And there are some persons at the present time who, by constantly clamouring and talking of the Union, and denouncing anyone whom they think at the moment is endangering the Union, think that they can maintain the Union for all time. That would not be the method that I would recommend to hon. Members on this side of the House. Hon. Members on this side of the House profess to be anxious to maintain the Legislative Union between England and Ireland. Opposite to them sits the Party of Repeal. They are your opponents now; but if you fail to retain your hold on the English people they and their policy of repeal will be your successors. I believe that the right way to maintain the Union is to identify the Government of the Union—the Party of the Union—in the minds of the English people with good government, with efficient administration, and with wise and progressive legislation; but if, unfortunately, it should happen that the Government and Party of the Union should become identified in the minds of the English people with the reverse of those throe factors, or should fall short of the standard to which the English people in these respects are looking, then I greatly fear that before long—possibly sooner than some may expect—down will go your Government, down will go your Party, and, with them, down will go that Union to which you profess to be so devoted. I notice a little tendency—and I am anxious to say this while there is time—I notice a little tendency in the Party of the Union to attach too much importance to precarious Parliamentary alliances, which are as transient and uncertain as the shifting wind, and perhaps to leave out of sight, and not attach enough

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    importance to the vital question of all, that it is only by the excellence and merit of your policy that you can keep the English people at the back of the Party of the Union. I frankly confess that when I was in the Government I made it my constant thought and desire to make things as easy as possible for the Liberal Unionists; to induce the Government to produce such measures as they might conscientiously support; to pursue a policy which would be in accordance with their general principles; and to make such electoral arrangements as might enable them to preserve their seats; but I frankly admit that I regarded the Liberal Unionists as a useful kind of crutch; and I looked forward to the time, and no distant time, when the Tory Party might walk alone, strong in its own strength, and conscious of its own merits; and it was always to the Tory Party, and solely to the Tory Party, that I looked for the maintenance of the Union. If the Tory Party want to know the danger of their position outside their own ranks, they have only to watch carefully the negotiations which the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir William Harcourt) is conducting at the Round Table with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain), who is acting, as far as I am aware, with the knowledge, and not without the consent, of the noble Lord opposite (the Marquess of Harrington). So greatly is the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham enamoured of the progress of the negotiations, with such hope and confidence does he regard them, that he is not satisfied with the Round Table; he proposes that it should be a rounder and a larger table, at which Lord Salisbury is to meet the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone), and the noble Marquess opposite is to meet the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell), and there, after sweet converse, devise a scheme for the future government of Ireland. I do not know what are the feelings of hon. Members on this side of the House; but I know that my own feeling with regard to these proceedings of the right hon. Member for West Birmingham is that he is pursuing an erroneous and mistaken course. Hon. Members on this tide of the House will, I think, never follow a line of policy which, by any
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    reasonable construction, can create in Dublin anything in the nature of an Irish Parliament. That is the clear and broad position of the Tory Party. That is the position from which under no pretence of the extension of local self-government shall we depart; and it would be well for the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, who is now indulging in such extraordinary gyrations, to lay to heart and keep well in mind that whatever schemes of Home Rule for Ireland may commend themselves to him, they are not, under any circumstances, likely to commend themselves to Members on this side of the House. I hope the House will pardon me for having made those remarks in regard to Ireland. I now desire to glance at another subject. I noticed, with great satisfaction, that it is the intention of the Government to press forward the proposals for reform in the Procedure of the House of Commons. I make no remark on the proposals now, further than this—that I notice, with equal satisfaction, that they are precisely in the same form as when I left the Cabinet. I see below me, in the corner, a right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chaplin) who has spent much time during the autumn in perambulating the country, and alarming the country with the most fearful assertions and insinuations as to the awfully drastic form of restrictions on debate which I was pressing the Government to bring forward. I hope he will now admit that his alarm is entirely unfounded; that his assertions were perfectly baseless; and that the proposals for restricting debate are not one whit stronger, or more dangerous to Parliamentary freedom, than what he himself is perfectly prepared to agree to. I do not think, however, there would be much use in making that acknowledgment, for I imagine that certain persons on this side of the House would still assert that, of all dangerous Radicals who ever existed on the face of the earth, the Member for Paddington is the most dangerous. I pass on to glance for a moment at the programme of legislation contained in the Gracious Speech; and on that I will only say that I have observed, and possibly others have observed, a striking similarity—a strong family resemblance—between the programme in Her Majesty's Gracious Speech and the programme which ap-

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    peared in a certain speech made in Kent not long ago, and which speech at the time it was made was declared by the Government organs in the Press to have no Ministerial authority of any sort or kind. All I can say is that the programme in the Queen's Speech appears to me to be an ample and abundant programme. Of course, it is impossible to judge of the merits of that programme merely by the titles of the Bills; but I have every hope myself that those Bills when produced will be found to contain much that is good, and much that is wise; and I am sure that if there should be portions of those measures which fall short of what the country requires, the Government will be only too anxious to defer to, and to be guided by, the wisdom of Parliament. I pass now to another part of the Queen's Speech which more closely concerns me—the paragraph which states that the Estimates will be laid before the House, and that they have been framed with due regard to economy and efficiency. It is a curious thing that this last statement, with regard to the Estimates being framed with due regard to economy and efficiency, had almost fallen into disuse and desuetude. It is very rarely used nowadays. I suppose it is the strong Conservative proclivities of the present Government that had rescued it almost from oblivion. But I own I cannot help regarding it, as far as I am concerned, as something very like the manœuvre of waving a red flag in the face of a bull, for if the Estimates are really framed with due regard to economy and efficiency they must have been greatly altered since I left the Cabinet. It is quite possible that there may have been some alteration, because I observe that Lord Salisbury, speaking in "another place," was good enough to say that I, in common with all other public men—and, of course, he included himself in the number, as being one of the most public men in the country—was deeply impressed with what he called the "rapid and most injurious increase of Public Expenditure." Well, Sir, really I believe I may confess to the House that this is the first indication I have ever received from Lord Salisbury that he was of that opinion. I look upon it as a distinct advance; and I am not at all disinclined to take the credit of his conversion to myself. At any rate, I take these words
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    "most injurious," and I commend them to the attention of the House of Commons. When the Head of the Government admits in his place in Parliament that the rise in Expenditure has been "most injurious," it is certain that he is prepared to co-operate with Parliament in the effort to reduce Public Expenditure. The hon. Member for North Islington (Mr. Bartley) made a speech on the subject of economy on Friday night to which I listened with much attention. I pass over the amiable and generous suggestion he threw out that in the action I had taken I had been mainly guided by personal motives, and I turn to the more practical, useful, and material portions of his speech. The hon. Member seemed to think that Parliament can do a great deal in this matter of economy, and he appealed to Parliament to do this, that, and the other. The hon. Gentleman has certainly the advantage of me in years of natural life; but I think I have the advantage of him in years of Parliamentary life. And I can assure him that Parliament is impotent—absolutely impotent to promote economy unless the Government lead the way. I ask my hon. Friend and those who think with him to consider this. We may be of opinion that the Expenditure of this country is abnormal and excessive; but how are we to give effect to that opinion? Are we to move an Amendment to the Address? Are we to move a Resolution in the House to that effect? Why, that would be a Resolution or an Amendment hostile to the Government, which the Government would be bound to treat as a hostile Motion, and which, if carried, would terminate the existence of the Government. And, Sir, neither the hon. Member nor I would be prepared to initiate or to take part in any proceedings of this character. Therefore, as far as regards getting Parliament to pronounce an opinion on the Expenditure of the country, that mode of action is out of our power. Well, we are thrown back upon the ordinary proceeding in Committee of Supply. What takes place? A Minister comes comes down with the Army or Navy Estimates. He makes a long statement, probably of an optimistic character, which, as a rule, is listened to by a thin House; and the Members who do listen are so exhausted

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    at the end of the statement that they are quite incapable of discussing the contents of that statement. Then, suppose that either the hon. Member for Islington or I adduce a number of facts tending to show great extravagance on the part of the Department, what takes place? In those statements of ours there would probably be something that was inaccurate, as well as things that were accurate. The Minister gets up; he fastens upon their inaccuracies; he proves them to be such with every appearance of virtuous indignation, and he sits down amid a burst of Ministerial cheers, uniformly overlooking all that was accurate or valuable in the facts submitted to him. The nest morning the papers would have something to this effect:—The First Lord of the Admiralty, or the Secretary of State for War, as the case might be, satisfactorily and finally disposed of the frivolous and absurd charges brought before the Committee by the right hon. Member for Paddington. That would be the result of our efforts to promote economy. So the Expenditure goes gaily on. I want to show that I am right in saying that unless the Government leads the way Parliament is absolutely impotent. I have a suggestion to make to my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury, which he may be able to consider. It is that the discussion of the Army and the Navy Estimates—and, indeed, the discussion of Ministerial Statements connected with the Estimates generally—would be immensely improved, and the House would be enormously assisted, if the Minister in charge of Estimates, instead of making a long speech, which is only the reading of a written document prepared by the Department, were to circulate with the Estimates, or some days before the discussion of them, the written statement which he would otherwise read in the House. Then, Sir, Members would come down to the discussion of the Estimates, having had ample time and opportunity to get up the facts, and fully prepared to initiate and sustain a useful discussion of great public questions. I commend this suggestion to the consideration of my right hon. Friend. It is a course which I have for some time wished to see adopted, and I really think it would be an enormous convenience and saving of time. My right hon.
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    Friend was good enough the other day to say in answer to me—and to say it in a speech of generosity and kindness, for which I desire to thank him—that he would welcome any assistance from me in the direction of economy, and would place all information at my disposal or that of the House, and would give the House every facility, either by way of special discussion or Committee or Commission, for arriving at the true reason of this great increase of Expenditure. Encouraged by that invitation of my right hon. Friend, I make another suggestion, which, if it please, and is agreeable to the House, he and the Government may consider. The fact of the increase of £6,000,000 in the Army and Navy Estimates, as compared with three years ago, is not disputed; and I would suggest that, in order to meet the apprehensions of the House and of the public, my right hon. Friend should be content to produce the Estimates, should take the first Votes in each, and should then allow them to go to a Committee of the House of Commons, to be thoroughly gone through by a powerful and properly constituted body, who would have the power to send for persons and records, to take evidence, and to get all necessary information. I believe that that is a course which the House would be inclined to support, which the public would approve, and which would have the enormous advantage that it would relieve the Government from the responsibility for the increase, which responsibility they ought not to bear, because it is an increase which they inherit, and it is not an increase for which they are personally responsible. If my right hon. Friend would refer the Army and the Navy Estimates to a Committee of this kind, if the idea should find favour with the House, I have no doubt the House would from time to time grant the Government such Votes on Account as might be necessary for carrying on the business of the country, and possibly the Government would be willing not to make progress with the Estimates until the Committee had examined them and reported upon them. Of course, it would be quite impossible for the Government to undertake to abide by all the recommendations of the Committee this year, because an enormous amount of expenditure has been already ordered and incurred; orders have been given for

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    stores and materials, and they cannot be altered now. But the Government might enter into a general engagement to be guided in framing the Estimates for next year by the general recommendations of the Committee. I cannot help hoping that my right hon. Friend and his Colleagues will consider that suggestion. If that course should be adopted it would relieve my mind of an immense difficulty, and would save me the trouble and the disagreeable duty of worrying and attacking the Government upon minor points. I should be prepared to lay all my case before such a Committee as a Parliamentary arbitrator, and to abide by the decisions to which Parliament might come. Well, Sir, I only desire, as a matter of personal explanation, to allude for a moment to the question of the coaling stations, and because I was unable to do it the other night. There seems to be a great deal of misapprehension about this question of the coaling stations. I never resigned upon the question of the coaling stations—never. In conversation with my right hon. Friend—and long conversations we had—we went through the Army Estimates item by item, and my right hon. Friend was of opinion that not one of those items could be reduced. At the end of a conversation, when I asked him whether it was quite impossible to make the smallest reduction in the Army Estimates, he said there was only one item, of £400,000, on which a reduction could be made, and its reduction he would never consent to, as it was the Vote for fortifying the coaling stations. In the correspondence with Lord Salisbury I mentioned—although I saw no prospect of its being agreed to—that this was an item in which a reduction might be possible if the policy of the Government could be reconciled with the reduction; and on that intimation Lord Salisbury, who is a master of the art of tactics—I do not in the least complain, but he at once, by the cleverness of his reply, identified my resignation with the question of the coaling stations. Really, I never resigned upon the coaling stations. I resigned upon retrenchment—whether there was to be retrenchment or there was not to be. I considered that I was absolutely pledged to retrenchment, and that unless the Government went in for it it was impossible for me to be Chancellor
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    of the Exchequer. I do not wish to say much about the coaling stations; but I may take the opportunity of saying that if we are to adopt a policy of expenditure upon the fortification of coaling stations, we shall be showing conclusively the utter baselessness of the well-known proverb that "a burnt child dreads the fire." The House may not be aware that this year we come to the practical termination of the enormous Terminable Annuities —no less than £5,000,000 a-year—which were used by Lord Palmerston to raise loans for the fortification of coaling stations.
    MR. CHILDERS: Not so large an annuity, but one to produce a certain number of millions.
    LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: There were other loans included; but the main portion of the annuities which practically come to an end this year were for the loans for fortifications; and it is not too much to say that of that money which was expended upon fortifications years and years ago, and which you have just paid off, two-thirds or three-fourths of it was absolutely thrown into the gutter and wasted. I think it is quite probable that if the right hon. Member for Mid Lothian, when he was Chancellor of the Exchequer, and when he had that great dispute with Lord Palmerston in which Lord Palmerston said he would sooner lose Mr. Gladstone than lose Portsmouth Harbour—if he had stuck to his guns, and had stood out against Lord Palmerston, the country might have been saved the outlay of many millions. As to the coaling stations, all I have to say is that, if you can show me that the moneys will not be wasted, that the engineers know how to construct scientific fortifications, and that you will arm them when they are constructed and maintain them in an efficient state, I shall have nothing to say against the policy; but I approach the question with the utmost apprehension and scepticism, because of the previous experience of this country on the question, which certainly hon. Gentlemen ought not to exclude from their consideration. It is a great question, well worthy of the consideration of the House, whether the policy of the defence of the British Empire may not follow upon the lines of foreign policy which we adopt towards other nations—not by any means a policy of cowardice, but a

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    policy of the careful and prudent avoidance of all unnecessary entanglements and all unnecessary quarrels. Again, I would venture to repose the policy of the defence of the Empire, if it is to be followed up with courage and resolution, on the patriotism and loyalty of a free and contented people, animated not so much by the strength of their fortifications as by their undying historic memories. And, in the third place, I would prefer to repose the defence of the British Empire upon a careful, thrifty, and frugal husbanding in time of peace of those national resources, in order that in time of war they may be exuberantly displayed in all their irresistible might. I am not at all clear that these general remarks do not indicate a safer and more economical policy for the defence of the Empire than that of throwing ourselves hysterically into the embrace of engineers, or of lying down pusillanimously in a cemetery of earthworks. All I venture to deprecate is legislating or spending money in a hurry, and under the influence of panic or clamour. It is supposed that the working classes take no interest in this question—that any line against National Expenditure is not popular, because the working people do not pay taxes. A lot of people come to me and say—"Oh, you have taken a most unpopular line; the working classes do not care; they pay no taxes." It seems necessary to point out, what has been pointed out before, that this question of Expenditure concerns not only what the right hon. Gentleman opposite erroneously calls the classes, but also deeply concerns the masses, because the right hon. Gentleman must bear this in mind—that out of every shilling's worth of tea which the workman purchases he pays 6d. to the Chancellor of the Exchequer; that out of every shilling's worth of tobacco he pays 10 d., and out of every shilling's worth of beer he pays 2d. Now, I would ask my right hon. Friends on this side of the House who are prepared to defend a policy of the larger Expenditure—Are you going to put this question of the fortification of the coaling stations or the increase of the Army and Navy—are you going to test its popularity by the imposition of new taxes? Will you propose to meet this £6,000,000 by a re-imposition of the Sugar Duties? That would be a very practical way of
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    testing it. Will you raise the Tea Duties, or, by what probably ought to be done, will you propose to test the fidelity of your friends, the licensed victuallers, and ask them to contribute to these fortifications of the Empire by an increase, and a very proper increase, of the Beer Duty? These are practical questions which I invite my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury to answer. It is no use turning round on me and saying—"The whole country desires this expenditure, and you are wrong," or that economy is old-fashioned, and out of date, unless the Chancellor of the Exchequer is prepared to get up in his place at the Table and put such expenditure on the taxpayers of the country. My right hon. Friend and his Colleagues would be the last persons to propose for one moment that this expenditure should be placed on the Income Tax, and I am sure they would not contemplate for one moment a permanent maintenance of the Income Tax at 8d. in the pound in time of peace. These are questions which I respectfully submit to the attention of the Government and Parliament. These great questions of public economy are not to be disposed of by mere ad captandum statements, or by general denunciation of all persons who wish to bring the Expenditure of the country within normal limits. This is a matter which the Government must seriously consider. I feel perfectly certain that the attention of the people is being concentrated on this great question of Expenditure; it is interesting the people; and I rejoice greatly that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian refused, and very properly refused, the other night to identify himself with it, for fear of making it a Party question. He appealed to those on this side of the House, and I hope he did not appeal in vain—he appealed to the Conservative Party, whose best traditions are connected with public economy—to take up this question and support the Government, so that the Government, with the support of both sides of the House, may lead the way to a more reasonable expenditure of public money, and a revision of taxation. I may be allowed to make one final remark which is personal to myself. I know there are many hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House, whose opinion and whose esteem I greatly value, who are greatly incensed

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    against me for having taken the course I have done—for having resigned my place in the Government. They are severe in their criticism, sharp in their censure, and righteous in their wrath, when they consider my action. I can only say that I confidently believe that the progress of events will probably modify that judgment. It is not the first time that it has been my evil fortune to wrestle with the Tory Party. I remember only about four years ago that so greatly did I displease the Tory Party that there was hardly one Conservative Member who would give me at that time so much as a nod of recognition. Why was that? I had proclaimed—I admit with much frankness—that I thought the Tory Party was going wrong on a great principle. I have once more proclaimed—this time by action—my opinion that the Tory Party is going wrong on the great question of Expenditure, and again there appear all the charges of disloyalty, treachery, and such like, to which I am accustomed, and to which I do not listen. I appeal on that subject to the tribunal of time. Any little political influence which I may possess—any little political strength which may have been given to me—has not hitherto been drawn, for any practical or permanent purpose, from within the walls of this House, or from within that circle whose centre is the Treasury Bench. No, Sir; it has come from outside, and I appeal on this question to Cæsar—to the just and generous judgment of the people. I know that I have sought for nothing—absolutely nothing—except to protect and promote their most material interests, and on this great question of economy and retrenchment I patiently wait for the judgment of the people.
    SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAsaid, he wanted to say a few words about the Plan of Campaign, and to explain how it operated with regard to his estate. He hoped the hon. Member for South-East Cork (Mr. Lane) was in the House, as he should not like to say anything derogatory or otherwise about him behind his back, although that hon. Gentleman had not scrupled to attack him when, being 500 miles away, he was not in a position to reply to the reckless slanders of which the hon. Member was the mouthpiece, until those slanders had done their work, and had spread amongst his
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    neighbours, whose good-will he valued. This was a very serious affair for him; but he would not ask the House to take anything upon his own ex-parts statement. He would refer to the words of the hon. Member for South-East Cork, as reported in The Cork Herald, and it would then be for the House and the country to judge whether the language used against him was justified or not. On the 7th of November last a public meeting was called at Youghal, which was addressed by the hon. Gentleman, and a report of which appeared in the Cork papers of the following day. He (Sir Joseph M'Kenna) had no derogatory or censorious remark to make about that meeting, or its professed object. The chair was occupied by the respected parish priest, and a Government reporter occupied a seat on the platform. It must have been a treat to the latter to hear two Home Rule Members—for there were two—attacking another behind his back, carefully avoiding to give the latter an opportunity of reply. He understood that a great number of the people of the town and neighbourhood knew what was to take place at the meeting; and as the man to be attacked could not reply the attack was expected to be the more spirited, and the attendance was consequently greater on that account. The borough of Youghal had recently been disfranchised, which borough had been represented in Parliament for a number of years by himself (Sir Joseph M'Kenna).
    MR. SPEAKERsaid, he was very sorry to interfere; but they were now discussing the Address to the Throne, whilst the hon. Gentleman appeared to be entering into a personal explanation of some altercation he, unfortunately, had with some other Member of the House. He could not allow that to be in Order.
    SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAsaid, he would not pursue that line of observation, but would proceed to explain what had been done with respect to the Plan of Campaign, as far as he was himself concerned. The hon. Member for South-East Cork, at the meeting to which he had alluded, stated that every tenant, with one or two exceptions, on the M'Kenna estate had within the past week been served with writs of ejectment. That statement was not correct. With one or two exceptions, writs had

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    not been served at all. The hon. Member then told the people that he had been investigating the affairs of the M'Kenna estate; and he advised the tenants to show a bold and firm front against the treatment which they were receiving from a person whom he did not hesitate to call their heartless and inhumane landlord; he told them to discuss among themselves what was a fair and reasonable reduction; when they had decided upon that, to pledge themselves to stand by one another in insisting upon it as a general reduction; and then to go to the landlord or his agent and tell him that they would not pay until they were allowed 30, 40, or 50 per cent reduction, or whatever was agreed to. There was no foundation whatever for the statement which the hon. Member made about his treatment of his tenants. He (Sir Joseph M'Kenna) purchased the Cork estate 20 years ago, with the several tenants on it, who were on it now, and on the rents as fixed between his predecessors and the tenants. He had paid 20 years', and 22 years'in some cases, purchase for the holdings, so that there was no land-jobbing or speculation in the matter. He had devoted the savings of many years of hard work to purchase the estate; and at the time he made the purchase, the tenants, one and all, expressed themselves satisfied that the rents they had undertaken to pay were moderate. He had discharged his duties to them ever since in a considerate and generous spirit, never having raised the rent on any one of them. The total acreage was 1,400 acres. The total rental receivable was £595 1s. 10 d., out of which was a tithe-rent charge payable by him of £80, and a quit rent of £10. The Ordnance valuation was £533 14 s. when he bought it; but some slight reductions had since been made, a few tenants having permitted dilapidations. The total amount receivable by him—if everyone paid his rent, which no one could expect in all circumstances—would give him about 4½ per cent on his money, and would be less than Griffith's valuation. The statements which the hon. Member for South-East Cork made with respect to him were in every material circumstance unfounded, and he challenged the hon. Member to prove them before a Committee of that House. He did not deny that in other places hardships had to be
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    undergone by both tenants and landlords; but the application on his estate of the Plan of Campaign was without a single instance of cruelty or inhumanity on his part to justify it, and it was an outrage not merely upon a Member of the House, but a Member of the Party to which those Gentlemen professed to belong; the Plan of Campaign had not been adopted by the Members of the Irish Party as a body. A half-dozen Gentlemen, to whom he imputed no unpatriotic, unjust, or dishonourable motive, had come to the conclusion that in certain cases a strong course should be adopted. But nothing alleged to have been done in Ireland approached the degree of baseness with which the Plan of Campaign had been applied in his case. He hoped some day the hon. Members to whom he alluded would express their regret for having attacked a landlord who for 10 years had never issued a writ of ejectment. The only case in which during 20 years such a writ had been issued on the estate was in the case of a tenant who owed four years and said he would not pay one year.
    MR. LANE: Perhaps the House will allow me to say that the tenants of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down did not adopt the Plan of Campaign at my instigation, but upon their own account, and under the presidency of their own parish priest, without the slightest compulsion on the part of anyone else. I am perfectly guiltless of any complicity with the tenants of the hon. Member in inducing them to adopt the Plan of Campaign against him. I understood, however, that they did so on his refusal to grant them a small reduction of 20 per cent upon their half-year's rent.
    MR. J. F. X. O'BRIEN: I think the pantomime to which the hon. and gallant Member for North Armagh (Colonel Saunderson) treated the House on Friday night was entertaining; but, if we subtract from it the slanders upon the Irish Nationalist Members, I really do not think it added much to the information of the House. Hon. Members have from time to time dilated on the resistance of the Irish people to the law, and it is very sad to think of the long struggle that has taken place in Ireland, in resistance to the law. Three hundred years ago the poet Spenser, although a sharer in the plunder of Ire-

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    land, was so horrified at the atrocities he witnessed around him that he expressed himself to this effect—he feared much that Providence was preserving the Irish nation to be a punishment to England for the crimes and cruelties she had perpetrated in Ireland. Later on, Sir John Davies, the Attorney General of James I., complained bitterly that English law was withheld from the Irish people; and he added that the object appeared to be the extermination of the natives by the settlers, without affording them the protection of the law. This principle of extermination has continued generation after generation in Ireland, and it prevails to this day. About 50 years ago, when the state of things which existed in Ireland was very similar to that which is prevailing there now, an upright, fair-minded, and honourable English gentleman—Mr. Poulett Scrope—was travelling in Ireland. He was, I believe, a Member of this House at the time, and he wrote a letter describing what he had seen to the Prime Minister of that day—Lord Melbourne. His words are so applicable to what is happening now that I think I may, with advantage, quote an extract from that letter. Mr. Poulett Scrope wrote—
    "Is there no point of oppression at which resistance to the law becomes a duty? We have the recent authority of the head of the law for the principle—a principle as old as it is true—that allegiance is only due where protection is afforded. Does the law protect the Irish peasant? Not from starvation. It does not protect him from being thrust out of his home and little holding into absolute destitution to perish on the highway. It does not preserve him from this fate at command of an absentee landlord. The law affords the Irish peasant no protection from a fate so horrible. Hundreds are at present exposed to it; millions know they are liable to it. Can the law justly require their allegiance? No. The peasantry of Ireland feel that the law places their lives at the mercy of the few whom it invests with sovereign power over the land of their native country; with power to sweep them all, at will, off its surface."
    Such was the state of Ireland, as observed by this Gentleman, in 1834. Ten years afterwards, without altering a syllable of this letter, he addressed a copy of it to another Prime Minister—Sir Robert Peel—matters being still unchanged. When I read further, the House will be astonished to find how much things to-day resemble those of 53 and 43 years ago. At the time Mr. Poulett Scrope
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    wrote to Lord Melbourne, the Irish tenants had banded themselves together, and resistance to the law was carried on by an Association known as the Whiteboy Association. The Whiteboys did not stick at trifles. They soon came to think as little of the lives of their oppressors as their oppressors thought of theirs, and small blame to them, many would say. Hear what Mr. Poulett Scrope wrote of the Whiteboys—
    "They feel that the system of clearing estates, which has been so many years in progress, is a question of life and death to them. Therefore, they combine against it. Therefore, however little minds may wonder at the past, they show no more repugnance to the shedding of blood in open day, in the presence of assenting thousands in execution of sentences of self-organized tribunals, looked upon by them as the sole safeguard of their lives, than does a soldier hired to fight for his country's safety on the field of battle. It is to their own Whiteboy law they consider their allegiance due. Let those who know Ireland deny the fact if they can. The peasantry of Ireland do more or less obtain from the Whiteboy Association that essential protection to their existence which the established law of the country refuses to afford. The Whiteboy system is the practical and efficient check upon the ejectment system. It cannot be denied that, but for the salutary terror inspired by the Whiteboys, the clearance of estates would proceed with a rapidity, and to an extent, that must occasion the most horrible sufferings to hundreds of thousands of the ejected tenantry. It is easy to satisfy the mind of an interested person that what the law allows cannot be wrong. Yes, But for the salutary fear of the Whiteboy system, ejectments would desolate Ireland."
    Is it not wonderful how exactly these words describe what is to-day passing before our eyes? So little has the government of Ireland altered that, with only the substitution for the death penalties of the Whiteboy system of the bloodless resistance of the National League and the Plan of Campaign, every word fits exactly. I was a little amused—I do not know whether other hon. Members, too, were also amused—at the tender professions of love for Ireland by the First Lord of the Treasury (Mr. W. H. Smith) on Thursday evening. Professions of love for Ireland from a Tory statesman are certainly a heavy draft upon the credulity of the Irish people. One would not imagine from the personal appearance of the right hon. Gentleman that he was inclined to romance. His principal characteristic is that of a practical business man; but he does romance with regard to Ireland, and I think it would be much more becoming

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    on the part of the right hon. Gentleman, if he would approach the question in something like a business style. His latest connection with Irish politics—his 24 hours' visit to Ireland—would not, perhaps, lead us to expect a businesslike policy from the right hon. Gentleman now in regard to the Irish Question. I feel bound to take strong exception to one remark which fell from the right hon. Gentleman. He denies to the Irish Members the right of interfering in the Irish Land Question. To say that we, who, above all men, ought to be most interested in the affairs of our country—we for whom I may say every inch of the soil of Ireland is made sacred—mingled as it is with the dust of countless generations of our ancestors—to say that we have no right to interfere in the affairs of Ireland is, to say the least of it, a most audacious assertion. The Plan of Campaign has been attacked in unmeasured language in this House; but I have not heard any hon. Member urge a single substantial argument against it. We are told that the Plan of Campaign is immoral and dishonest; but no hon. Member gives a single reason for his assertion. I venture to say, without fear of contradiction, that the Irish people, in point of morality, are inferior to no nation in the world; and any political question they take up will, from a moral point of view, bear investigation as closely as that of any other people upon the face of the earth. All the immorality imputed to the Irish people is based on their resistance to law and contract. Then, Sir, let us try to understand in what way this test of law and contract is applied to the morality of the Irish people; and let us see how the Plan of Campaign is concerned in the Irish Land Question. The root of the Land Question in Ireland turns on the hostile legislation of the English Government, which has destroyed the manufactures of Ireland and her trade, and every other means by which the people could live. The hostile legislation of the English Government towards Ireland has been the foundation of the land troubles in Ireland. The people are left nothing to fall back upon, and have but one means of subsistence—namely, the land. Having reduced the people to this one means of subsistence, the land itself was handed over to a tribe of land thieves from
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    England and Scotland. In giving these men possession of the land of Ireland, the Government also gave them the power of conferring upon themselves every possible advantage, and of surrounding the possession of land by the natives with every possible disadvantage. They became the makers of the laws; and the result of their legislation on the Land Question was to give themselves immediate possession of every improvement made by the tenantry upon the land. They were enabled to confiscate every improvement of the tenant, and to raise the rent at will, so that, in a brief period, the rents in Ireland have been absolutely quintupled. The position of the Irish tenantry has been this—that no matter what the industry of the tenant farmers of Ireland may have been, the landlords were always raising the rents, until they became beyond the power of the tenants to pay. The Irish landlords being in that position, and being able to raise the rents beyond the capacity of the tenants to pay them, were able to keep the tenants with a load of arrears upon them. This system has continued in Ireland down to the present day. In fact, the Glenbeigh of to-day is a mere illustration of this system of rent-raising and of arrears hanging over the people for ever. The rents on the unfortunate tenants in Glenbeigh have been raised by 70 to 100 per cent above the Poor Law valuation. They have been paying it as long as they could scrape the money together by any possibility, in order to keep the roofs over their heads. They have for generations paid these enormous rents; but, in spite of all, the arrears have swelled, and have been hanging over their heads like the sword of Damocles. The landlords have in this way established for themselves a cheap system for the practice of generosity by consenting to accept a year's rent, or half-a-year's rent, out of arrears piled up in this manner.
    Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,
    MR. J. P. X. O'BRIENresumed: I warn the House that it is impossible to legislate for Ireland with any prospect of success until you first cease from judging the Irish people by the law and contract test of morality. The test

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    they have been accustomed to look up to is the Divine Law of the Ten Commandments. English laws forbade to the Irish people the practice of their religion; forbade them education; placed a price of £5 on the head of the priest and of the school teacher. I should like to know what connection there is between such laws and the Divine Law? How can the Irish peasant be expected to have respect for laws of this kind? The class of people for whom the Land Laws have been made by the English Government have constantly confiscated to themselves every improvement these unfortunate people have made on the land. The law is made for the people; it is not the people who are made for the law. Although we have never ceased to have Judges in Ireland, such as Baron Palles, at Sligo, and Justice Johnson, in Dublin, who have denounced the people in unmeasured terms for their disobedience to the law, it must not be forgotten that the law itself had been framed in a spirit contrary to morality and the Divine Law. The policy which has been developed in Kerry by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary was an unexpected commentary upon the policy enunciated by the Prime Minister of 20 years of resolute government in Ireland. The Chief Secretary for Ireland went over last September leaving us all under the impression that he was instantly to carry out that Cromwellian policy. But he had hardly landed in Ireland when we found him playing the part of fairy godmother in Kerry. We do not object to what the right hon. Gentleman did in Kerry; but, on the contrary, we wished to see the good work extended to all Ireland. Hence the inauguration of the Plan of Campaign; and if it had not been resorted to, I believe that evictions, such as those which have taken place at Glenbeigh, would have occurred in every corner of Ireland. No English landlord can pretend to ignore the consequences of the terrible depression in the prices of agricultural produce, and every English landlord must have felt the consequences of it. I believe that, to-day, land is even of less value in England than in Ireland. If we want to form any opinion on that subject, we have only to refer to the evidence given before the Commission on the Depression of Trade, and the causes of that depression. The evidence of well-known gen-
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    tlemen, before that Commission, shows that the tenants have been paying the rent out of capital for some years past, and not out of what the land produced; and if no protection is provided for English agriculturists, before many years have elapsed the farmers will be completely bankrupt, and their capital expended. To us Irish Representatives, who are bound to sympathize with our own people, the Bill introduced into this House last Session by the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) showed the wonderful foresight of my hon. Friend; and, had that Bill not been rejected by the House, it would have relieved Ireland from much disturbance, and have made the Plan of Campaign unnecessary. Every hon. Member present in the House last Session knows that the object of that Bill was to submit the question in regard to what relief ought to be justly provided for the tenants to the Land Courts of Ireland, and requiring the tenants to pay 50 per cent of their rent in order to enable them to enter the Court. Yet the right hon. Gentleman who now occupies the position of Chancellor of the Exchequer stated at Liverpool, the other day, that the object of that Bill was to reduce rents by 60 per cent. For a right hon. Gentleman occupying so prominent a position in the Government to make such an unfounded statement as that is an attempt to hoodwink the English public which I will not stoop to characterize. Some hon. Gentlemen, in attacking the Plan of Campaign, have asked why the Irish tenants should assume to themselves the right of saying what rent they should pay? But the Irish landlords have assumed to themselves for many generations the right of saying what rent the tenants should pay, and I think that one party to the bargain has just as much right to have a word in the bargain as the other. But the tenants have not assumed to themselves the right to say what they should pay, nor was that done in the Bill of the hon. Member for the City of Cork. No one can accuse the tenants of unfairness in attempting to settle the rent for themselves, when the landlords and their friends in this House rejected the proposal to submit the question to a disinterested tribunal—namely, the Land Court. Let us test the system carried

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    out under the Plan of Campaign by the action of the Land Courts. Now, I do not suppose that the average demand made by the tenants under the Plan of Campaign would exceed 25 per cent all round—certainly 80 per cent at the most. But during the month of December the Judges of the Land Commission in Ireland decided several cases in which application had been made for the fixing of judicial rents. Upon the estate of the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester (Colonel Tottenham)—a gentleman who has been posing for a considerable time before English audiences as a victim of the National League—the Land Court has reduced the rents by 49 to 65 per cent. The reductions made by the Land Court on this estate show that the rents exacted were 136 per cent above fair rents. Yet, if it had been suggested by those who are connected with the Plan of Campaign that a reduction should be made by 25 or 30 per cent, the hon. and gallant Member would have complained loudly; and yet the rents upon this estate have been reduced by 49 and 65 per cent. At Sligo, on the 21st of December, the Land Commissioners were engaged in hearing 48 applications by the tenants on 12 different estates, and they made reductions averaging 40 per cent. At Longford, on the 22nd of December, the Land Commissioners dealt with applications from 45 tenants on 11 different estates, and made reductions averaging 41 per cent. These facts, I contend, show that the reductions demanded by the Plan of Campaign have been exceedingly fair and moderate. I think there are evident signs that the people of this country are at last beginning to interest themselves somewhat more than was formerly the case in the Irish Question. Under the new Franchise Bill the democracy of England have obtained power, and with power they must also accept responsibility. Nowadays no Government can exist in this country against the will of the democracy. The democracy is responsible for every Government that exists. They may be excused for having placed a Tory Government in power at the last Election; probably it was because they had come into their new inheritance so very recently, and they had not had time to familiarize themselves with their duties and their responsibilities. Now that they
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    are becoming better acquainted with those duties and responsibilities, I think they will henceforward take a more active and conscientious interest in the government of the country. I believe that the people of this country are being rapidly educated and the public conscience is being stirred up by the state of things in Ireland; and when another Election comes I am convinced that the democracy of Great Britain will give a very different answer to that which was extracted from them last year, notwithstanding the fact that we were told it was to be a final mandate. The next mandate from the English democracy, which is not likely to be long delayed, will, I think, show a very different result.
    MR. ABRAHAM: I have obtruded myself upon the debate for the purpose of giving the House my own personal testimony as to the working of the Plan of Campaign. I think it is desirable that the English Members, and the English people generally, should be made acquainted with the way in which this Plan of Campaign has been working. On one estate in the county of Limerick some of the tenants approached their landlord, and asked for a reduction of rent to the extent of 25 per cent. The landlord made an offer of a reduction of 20 per cent, and the tenants met together to consider whether that offer ought to be accepted by them. They naturally sought for counsel and advice from the Members who represented them in this House; and, accordingly, I and my Colleague in the representation of the county (Mr. Finucane) waited upon the tenants, and discussed the question as to whether the reduction offered would meet the difficulties of the present time. On meeting together, the tenants chose as their chairman the parish priest of the locality; and it was agreed that the minority should be bound by the majority. Nine only were in favour of persisting in the demand for a reduction of 25 per cent; but the vast majority, numbering some 75, decided to accept the offer of 20 per cent. Upon that decision being arrived at, the rent was paid; and not only so, but it produced another salutary effect. Some trouble had originated in the locality previous to the attempted settlement; and, owing to the intimidation and threatening language resorted to, a num-

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    ber of arrests had been made. But so great was the impression produced by the adoption of the Plan of Campaign that at the next meeting of the Petty Sessions the magistrates were able to dismiss all the prisoners, because peace and harmony had been restored in the district. It has been stated here tonight that the condition of Ireland is satisfactory. We are told, in the Queen's Speech, that crime is found in its normal condition; and I assert that the reason why crime is at so low an ebb is that the people of Ireland have ceased to have recourse to the wild justice of revenge. They have found a better way of making their grievances known—namely, by Constitutional action, by meeting together and relying on united action and the justice of their cause. They also are aware that the feeling of this great country is with them in their sufferings and trials. Last Session a short Bill was introduced into this House by the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) to enable the Irish tenants to tide over their present difficulties. That Bill was laughed to scorn. We were told that there was an abundant harvest, and that the Irish people were able to pay their rents. The Bill of the hon. Member was rejected; but the Chief Secretary for Ireland has told us that when he came face to face with the circumstances of Ireland, he found it absolutely necessary to bring pressure to bear on the landlords in order to induce them to treat their tenants fairly. Wherever they have done so, peace and harmony have prevailed. Why, Sir, the testimony with regard to the depreciation of the value of agricultural produce does not come alone from the Irish Representatives. I hold in my hand the opinion of a gentleman which I am sure will not be disregarded by this House, and will certainly not be undervalued. I refer to Mr. Horton, the late Valuer of the Land Court, who says he is able to state without fear of contradiction that when the judicial rents were fixed on the then existing value, no one anticipated the great fall of prices which has since taken place, and that it will be found that wheat, grain, butter, and various other articles of produce have fallen 50 per cent. Any impartial observer, he says, must come to the conclusion that judicial rents fixed under such circumstances cannot
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    continue to be paid, and leave the farmers enough to live upon. "The farmers," adds this gentleman, "are so impoverished that they cannot pay their rents." This is the testimony of one who cannot be said to sympathize with any desire to withhold the payment of rent. If this gentleman sees that large reductions must be made in the tenants' rents, why is it that we, who have simply endeavoured to induce the landlords to be wise, are taunted with inaugurating an immoral policy? Allow me to state that, as a Protestant, I am in favour of the Plan of Campaign, and that the course we are pursuing has the sanction of the Archbishops of Dublin and Cashel. We feel that we are adopting a course which is justified both in the sight of man, and also in the sight of a higher tribunal to which we must all give an account. It is a matter of wonder how hon. Members who sit on these Benches can have the patience to listen to some of the remarks which have been made with regard to them. It is because our case is just; because we have confidence in the justice of the English people; because the present Government is a Government acting solely in support of the Irish landlords as far as Irish administration is concerned; it is because we feel that this Government cannot long stand in face of the feeling which has been evoked in the country, and because we believe that the democracy will be generous enough to give to a poor population of 5,000,000 that justice which 30,000,000 can give to themselves—that we can afford to pass by with silence and contempt the language which has been used towards us. We are face to face with an important crisis in Ireland. We know that our people are looking to our action here with the utmost confidence; they are determined that no crime shall stain the soil of Ireland, but that, by Constitutional methods, they will win what they demand. We have always desired that our cause shall not be stained by a single crime or outrage, and we feel confident that acting in that spirit we shall continue to advance, relying on the justice of our cause and the generosity and kindness of the great English nation.
    MR. J. E. ELLIS: Other hon. Members besides myself have listened with pleasure to

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    the remarks of the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill), with regard to economy; but, if I mistake not, the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell), as long ago as 1878, in the Committee on Public Business, made certain suggestions which were practically the same as those of the noble Lord. A Resolution to a similar effect was brought forward in the House last year by an hon. Member, who then represented one of the divisions of Edinburgh. We must all rejoice that the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington has joined our ranks; and, for my own part, I would appeal to other Members on the opposite Benches likewise to join us in what is really not a Party matter. Many of us have heard with satisfaction the remarks which fell from the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) with respect to what is going on in Burmah. It was my lot to be a faithful follower of the right hon. Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) when he was Prime Minister, and I listened attentively to the remarks which fell from him when he was in Office in the month of February last year in reference to the expenses of the Burmese Expedition; but on that occasion I felt myself compelled to go into the Lobby against the right hon. Gentleman on the question of the Burmese policy of the Government, and I am satisfied that when the Liberal Party returns to power any Liberal Government that represents fully and freely the opinion of the whole Party will find that such expeditions as that to Burmah are not supported by the country, and the expense connected with them ought not to be sanctioned. But our minds are now full of another subject. We are all of us thinking of Ireland. I venture to say that on that subject the measure proposed by the right hon. Member for Mid Lothian still holds the field against the various suggestions that have been made from different quarters, both in this House and in the country. I think we have some reason to be surprised and disappointed that in what the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down described, and most truly, as a grave crisis in the history of the country, Her Majesty's Government should come to us with an Address in which the only reference to Ireland is confined to a single sentence recommending reform of criminal procedure. Her Majesty's Govern-
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    ment, however, do not seem to have made up their own minds even upon that matter, because the expression put in the mouth of Her Majesty is this—
    "The condition of Ireland still requires your anxious attention. Grave crimes have happily been rarer during the last few months than during a similar period in the preceding year. But the relations between the owners and occupiers of land, which in the early part of the autumn exhibited signs of improvement, have since been seriously disturbed in some districts by organized attempts to incite the latter class to combine against the fulfilment of their legal obligations. The efforts of my Government to cope with this evil have been seriously impeded by difficulties incident to the method at present prescribed by Statute for dealing with such offences. Your early attention will be called to proposals for reforms in legal procedure which seem necessary to secure the prompt and efficient administration of the criminal law."
    Surely, if their minds were made up on the subject, they might have used a stronger and more decisive expression than "seem necessary" before inviting the House of Commons to proceed to make an alteration of the Criminal Law. I should have thought that they should have stated, precisely and definitely, that the proposed reform was actually necessary in order to secure the better administration of the law. One may translate that sentence which has been put into the mouth of Her Majesty pretty much in this way—that Her Majesty's Government come before the House of Commons and the people of this country with no other remedy at present for the Irish difficulty than a better way of helping the Irish landlords to collect their rents. I think it is desirable that we should analyze a little more this expression "legal obligations," which is used in Her Majesty's Speech. There have been many discussions in and out of Parliament upon Ireland during the last 50 years; but in all of them the great point which the speakers have tried to enforce was the vital and fundamental difference between the agrarian question in Ireland and in this country. On the 9th of June, 1845, the late Lord Derby, who had then been called to the Upper House by the title of Lord Stanley (as his son has been recently), spoke on this matter at great length. He was for many years the Leader of the Tory Party; and his utterances, therefore, will surely carry the greatest weight with hon. Members on the other side

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    of the House. Lord Stanley pointed out that there were many distinctions between agrarian matters in this country and in Ireland. He showed how, in England, there were many freeholds, whereas in Ireland there were very few. He pointed out how, in England, the landlords mostly resided on their estates and took an interest in them, while in Ireland the landlords were generally absentees; he pointed out that in England the relations between landlord and tenant were direct, but that Ireland was cursed with a system of middlemen; that, on this side of the Channel, there has been a long hereditary connection between the owners of land and the soil itself, whereas in Ireland the tenants or their families have been in possession of the land long before many of those to whom they pay their rent become connected with it; that England is a country of large farms, whereas Ireland is a country of small holdings. Those differences exist at the present moment, just as they did in 1845, when Lord Stanley called attention to them, and they lie at the root of the Irish Land Question. There was one matter referred to in the speech of the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) upon which I desire to say a word. The hon. Member described to the House a scene, of which he was a witness, when he occupied the position of a private soldier. Some hon. Members may say this occurred a good many years ago; but similar scenes are occurring in Ireland at the present day. The hon. Member pointed out that the cabin from which a man was evicted had been built by the tenant, and that he had been born in the place. This reveals the fatal and fundamental distinction to which the Devon, the Richmond, and the Bessborough Commissioners called attention in their Reports—namely, that the creation of all the buildings and improvements in the land of Ireland, which are valuable, is due to the industry of the tenants. That is proved by the operation of the Land Act of 1881. The right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Heneage) suggested, when the Land Bill was under consideration, that English-managed estates should be exempted from the operation of the Act. That proposition was resisted by the right hon. Member for Mid Lothian
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    (Mr. Gladstone) and the Cabinet, and rejected; but in "another place" a somewhat similar proposition was made, and a clause was introduced into the Land Act, the effect of which was to provide that any owner who could prove that the improvements upon a particular holding had been made by himself and by means of his capital should be excluded, to a certain extent, from the operation of the Act. I am informed that the applications under that clause of the Land. Act have been practically nil; and, therefore, it may be assumed that almost everywhere in Ireland the rental value of the holdings has been created by the toil of the tenants. It seems to me the significance of this matter is hardly appreciated in this country. We think of the Irish holdings as small, and the houses as mere mud cabins. But that is a very inadequate view of the matter. In September last I was speaking to a man who, two years ago, was evicted from his holding; and upon that holding of 50 acres the house in which he lived, the buildings attached to it, the roads, gates, fences, drainage, even the planting of the trees, and everything of that kind, had been done by himself or his father within the last40 years; and I venture to say that in this country a similar dwelling-house and out-buildings, and other improvements, would cost at least £700 or £800. Such a thing could not happen in England. But this is not an isolated case, and I cannot too strongly emphasize the immense influence of circumstances such as I have mentioned in destroying any analogy which has been attempted to be drawn between England and Ireland in the matter of the just payment of rent. It entirely destroys the argument of the hon. and gallant Member for North Armagh (Colonel Saunderson), the other night, when he asked whether a landlord in England could be found who was generous enough to forego two-thirds of the rent? My answer is, that there is not a landlord in England who owes the property for which he claims rent to the toil of his tenants, and not the outlay of his capital. In England these improvements are due entirely to the outlay of capital on the part of the owner. The Chief Secretary argued that it was legal to burn down the roofs and to destroy the houses of the poor people in Glenbeigh, and he

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    said that if the landlord had simply evicted them, they would have gone back again. Some hon. Member made the remark—"Quite right too." Then the right hon. Gentleman continued—
    "An hon. Member says, 'Quite right too.' In his opinion, then, poverty is to give a right to a person to live in a house that does not belong to him; but are you to apply that maxim not only to the West of Ireland, but to other parts of Ireland, and to England and Scotland as well?"
    Now, I venture to say that that is a most unfair illustration and a most unsound argument. No doubt, it is very difficult for the right hon. Gentleman, who, I believe, is a most kind-hearted landlord in Gloucestershire and Wiltshire, to understand the position of these poor people. No doubt, the whole of his out-buildings and farmsteads are kept in most excellent order, entirely at his own expense; all his gates are kept hanging on their hinges; all his fences are well maintained, and he and his predecessors have made a vast outlay of capital upon the estates during the last 30 or 40 years. The right hon. Gentleman is in a very different position from most English landlords if that is not the case. But nothing of the kind occurs in Ireland. The rent in Ireland, I venture to say, arises from the outlay of capital on the part of the tenant from the sweat of his brow and the result of his toil; and the word "rent," therefore, does not mean the same thing in the two countries. I come now to another point. There are two classes of tenancies in Ireland. From the most recent Report of the Land Commission, I see that there are 170,000 tenants who have had the advantage of having their rents fixed by the Land Court, or by agreement; but there are between 450,000 and 500,000 tenants who have not had the advantage of any decision of the Land Court with respect to their rents. In these cases the rents have not been fixed in any way by the operations of the Land Act of 1881, and I think it is desirable that we should know how these rents, in the case of the larger number of tenancies, have been fixed. We have seen that the value of the holdings has arisen from the toil of the tenant; let us look, then, for a moment at the manner in which the rents have been fixed. I take the Report of the Bess-borough Commission as an authority
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    which will not be disputed. In that Report the Commissioners described the condition of a tenant—
    "Not to come to terms with his landlord means for him to leave his home, to leave his employment, to forfeit the inheritance of his fathers, and to some extent the investment of his toil, and to sink at once to a lower plane of physical comfort and social rank. It is no matter to him of the chaffer of the market, but almost of life and death. The farmer bargains with his landlord under sentence of losing his living if the bargain goes off.
    'You take my life when you do take the means By which I live.'
    We grant that it would be inexpedient to interfere with freedom of contract between landlord and tenant if freedom of contract really existed; but freedom of contract in the case of the majority of tenants, large and small, does not exist."
    That is the language of three Irish landlords and an Irish Judge, and the words entirely cut away any moral sanction from the phrase "legal obligations" used in Her Majesty's Speech. Where there is no freedom of contract, there cannot be said to be any moral obligation on the part of those who have been coerced. The figure of the rent has, in fact, been fixed on the one hand by the rapacity—in some cases by the need, I admit, of the Irish landlord, because, in many instances, he is sunk in the morass of embarrassment—it is fixed on the one hand by the rapacity and need of the landlords, and on the other by the actual hunger—almost to starvation point—of the tenant. It may be asked, why do not the 450,000 tenants outside the Land Court enter it and bring themselves under the operation of the Land Act? And, on this point, Englishmen have need to become acquainted with the facts before coming to a hasty conclusion. We know, in the first place, that leaseholders are excluded by the terms of the Land Act itself, and their case is a cruel one. "Leases," say the Bessborough Commission—
    "have been imposed on tenants against their will, and when, from their legally helpless condition, they could not refuse."
    That is a strong statement for a Royal Commission to make upon such a matter. It would appear that there are more than 100,000 tenants, out of the number of tenants who are outside the Land Act, who are in that position of hardship. But the fact that there are still so many tenants who have not the advantage of

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    judicial rents is not only due to this law. There is abundant and overwhelming proof that the utmost hostility is entertained by the landlords against the tenants who desire to enter the Land Court. In October last I became acquainted with the circumstances of a property between Tralee and Listowel. There was one holding, in the middle of many others, the tenant of which obtained a judicial rent. He happened to be in the possession of money, and, therefore, was independent and cared nothing for his landlord. The result of his appeal to the Land Court was that the rent was reduced from £30 to £12, while all the tenants around him still remained rack-rented. Only last week, in Enniskillen, the agent of Lord Massey received a large number of notices from tenants anxious to have judicial rents fixed by the Land Court; and he retaliated at once by serving something like 100 notices of ejectment on the unfortunate tenants. I now come to the 170,000 tenants who, up to August last, had their rents fixed in one way or another. What is their position? During the first years of the existence of the Land Court, the reduction of rent was so insignificant that to perpetuate such reduced rents for 15 years was a grievance of which there was much bitter complaint, even among the 170,000 tenants whose judicial rents had been fixed. The hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon), in a forcible speech which he made last year on the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell), gave the House some striking instances of rack-renting. I cannot mention the name of the hon. Member for Mayo without paying him a tribute in this House for the courage and ability with which he has enunciated his views. I think that a somewhat unfair and unworthy sneer fell from the hon. and gallant Member for North Armagh (Colonel Saunderson), the other night, with respect to the hon. Member for Mayo. The hon. Member for Mayo always has the courage of his convictions; and, as far as I have come across him, his honour, truthfulness, and everything which proceeds from him, make him a man whose qualities may justly arouse our sincere admiration. Since August other reductions have been made. The other day the Land Commissioners went through a list of cases
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    at Manorhamilton, in Leitrim County. The name of the landlord in every instance was that of Colonel Loftus Tottenham. In five instances the rents were reduced from £89 to £37. In other years Colonel Tottenham had been annually charging the five tenants to whom this reduction applies 178 per cent too much, if the reduced rent is a fair rent. There are some other cases reported from Ireland in reference to the estates of Colonel King-Harman. In that case, the rents upon four holdings were reduced from £42 to £19. I am told that these are the names which are borne by the hon. and gallant Member for Winchester and the hon. and gallant Member who sits for the Thanet Division of Kent. If that be so, I think it concerns them and some other hon. Members of this House who are in a similar position to give some explanation. I have here also some figures in regard to the County of Longford. Upon one estate the facts appear to be very remarkable indeed, for I find that upon 25 holdings the total rent was reduced from £232 to £73; and that in one instance it was reduced from £6 10 s. to £1 12 s. I quite agree with Lord Salisbury that there has been "organized embezzlement" in Ireland; but it has not been on the part of the tenants. Nor is the organized embezzlement on the part of the Land League; but on the part of the landlords, who have behaved in this manner towards their tenants. No doubt I may be told that the rent of the 170,000 tenants which has been fixed by the Land Court ought to be held sacred, as their case is different from those of the tenants who have not gone into Court. The sacred character of these rents was held up to us from the Treasury Bench last August, and I remember the Prime Minister saying that if any mistake was made by the Sub-Commissioners the English taxpayer would have to bear the loss and not the Irish landlord. The hon. Member for Cork proved to demonstration that in regard to many of the tenants who had gone into Court, their case was much worse than if they had remained outside. In the case of those who went into the Land Court in 1882, 1883, and 1884, the reduction was of such an infinitesimal character that the fixing of it for 15 years was a greater wrong than the relief the tenants were afforded. I do not, how-

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    ever, rely on anything stated by the hon. Member for Cork in this matter, or on anything that was stated by anyone on this side of the House. I prefer to fall back upon the words of a great Irish landlord who holds a high position in the service of Her Majesty, and who wrote a letter on the 31st of October last which contains this sentence—
    "Her Majesty's Government have, by their action in appointing a Royal Commission, to some extent re-opened the question of rent."
    He backed up his opinion by making a reduction of 4s. in the pound upon the rents on his own estates in the County of Kerry. There is, as will be seen, a qualification in that letter. I believe it is one of the customs of this House that when a Messenger from the House of Lords approaches the door, the Door-keeper is required to close the entrance to this chamber. Now, I venture to say that this, which is an assertion of the Privileges of this House, would be inoperative if the door were left open for only three inches, and the Door-keeper received no orders from the Sergeant-at-Arms to close it effectively. I look upon the words of the letter to which I have referred, "to some extent," in the same light. "The Government, by appointing a Royal Commission, entirely abandoned the sacredness of judicial rents. These words were written by Lord Lansdowne, a nobleman whom Lord Salisbury, in his dire extremity, towards the beginning of January, telegraphed 3,000 miles away to come and help him. In giving an abatement of the judicial rents, Lord Lansdowne was only doing what has been going on all over Ireland. Judicial rents, fixed under the Land Act, in this time of pressure have become unfair. Sir, I have endeavoured to show to the House that the property of which we have heard so much has been created by the tenants; that the rent has been fixed by one side only; that a large portion of those outside the Land Court are precluded by law from entering it; that obstacles are placed in the way of the tenants which prevent them from obtaining relief. Wherever rents have been adjudicated upon, rack-renting in Ireland has been proved up to the hilt. Under these circumstances, I maintain that the legal obligations we are asked to enforce by the Criminal Law are obligations to
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    which the moral law gives no sanction. I am quite willing to agree to the appeal of the Chief Secretary the other night—that we should discuss the law as we find it. But what I contend is, that the law, as it now stands, is unjust. The rights of property, reasonably understood, form a great security for the rights of the people; and if you do anything to sap the rights of property you will strike a great blow against the security of the rights of the people. All we want is that property should be understood in its right sense; and I think that property in this case rather lies with the tenant than with the landlord. It would be very much better if we heard a little more of the rights of humanity. We hear a great deal about the maintenance of the Union; and I am sure all of us on this side of the House will respond to all that has been said to-night by the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill) upon the subject. There has been a great deal of going up and down shouting about the maintenance of the Union; but the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) towards the conclusion of his speech on Friday last were somewhat significant. The right hon. Gentleman admitted that it was no use to maintain the Union unless you maintain the law. We say the law must be made just before you maintain it. The noble Lord the Member for Rossendale (the Marquess of Hartington), who has been treated a little disrespectfully this evening—for he has been called a crutch, to be thrown aside whenever no longer needed—the noble Lord the Member for Rossendale, who, I believe, in the opinion of himself and his supporters, holds the fate of the Government in his hands, recommends all who are interested in this Irish Question to read Mr. Dicey's book. I hare read that book with very great interest, and I think that one of the books which will contribute most to the solution of the Irish problem will be that book, because it contains all that can be said on the side of those who are posing as Unionists, and that is very little indeed. I should like to ask whether Her Majesty's Government and the noble Lord (the Marquess of Hartington) stand by these words of Mr. Dicey?—

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    "If the Union is to be maintained with advantage to any part of the United Kingdom, the people of the United Kingdom must make the most strenuous, firm, and continuous effort—lasting, it may well be, for 20 years or more—to enforce, throughout every portion of the United Kingdom, obedience to the law of the land. This effort"—
    and I particularly call the attention of hon. Members to this passage—
    "This effort can only be justified by the equally strenuous determination (which must involve an infinity of trouble) to give ear to every Irish complaint, and to see that the laws which the Irish people obey are laws of justice, and, what is much the same thing, laws which, in the long run, the people of Ireland will feel to be just."
    If the Government and the noble Lord (the Marquess of Hartington) apply themselves to carry out the proposition which Mr. Dicey there tries to enforce, they will have to move in a very different direction to that they have indicated in the Queen's Speech. Now, Sir, the agrarian question is only part of this Irish problem, as anyone who has only looked even at its fringe will readily admit. I suppose there will be another opportunity within the next few weeks—namely, when Her Majesty's Government lay their proposals for the reform of the Criminal Law before the House—to discuss the administration of Criminal Law in Ireland; and, therefore, I do not propose to dwell upon that subject. I, however, pledge myself to make good, if I then have the chance, my words that the state of things which has lately existed in Ireland would not be tolerated for a single week in England. A very astounding remark fell from the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) during his speech on Friday last. The right hon. Gentleman appears to have been somewhat nettled by the very remarkable speech which was delivered at the Connaught Winter Assizes by Chief Baron Palles. The Chief Secretary for Ireland remarked that the Chief Baron appeared to have fallen into a mistake on that occasion. Well, now, Sir, I am not sure it conduces to the administration or enforcement of law and order in Ireland that the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland should be found to say in his place in the House of Commons that a great Irish Judge has fallen into a mistake. I would like to point out that, if the Chief Baron fell into a
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    mistake at Sligo with regard to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Bristol, is it not possible that another Irish Judge sitting in Dublin has fallen into a mistake with regard to the hon. Member for East Mayo (Mr. Dillon)? Is it calculated to teach the Irish people to respect what Judges say—that the Member of the Cabinet responsible for Irish government should tell us in the House of Commons that an Irish Judge has been making mistakes? Sir, if the law with regard to the agrarian question were put upon a proper basis, we should only have begun with the Irish problem. The demand for self-government in Ireland is much more ancient than the agrarian difficulty, and it is much more deeply rooted than any question about rent. It rests upon the most indestructible feeling that animates any of us—the love of liberty. We all know that the agrarian question, so far as evictions and small holdings are concerned, is mainly the creation of this century. It is largely due, as Mr. O'Connell showed in this House in 1846, to Acts of Parliament passed between 1815 and 1830, and to the political circumstances which favoured the creation of small holdings. The demand for self-government rests upon another basis. I entirely agree with the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) as to the tone and temper in which we should discuss this matter. I do not think that clever speeches from criminal lawyers on the other side, made up very largely of cuttings from the speeches of Irish Members below the Gangway in very different times to these, add much to the prospect of a solution of the Irish problem. The attitude of the Liberal Party in this matter is perfectly clear and unhesitating. The noble Lord the Member for South Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill) alluded very significantly, and with great force, to the great volume of public opinion of which sometimes we hear the faint echo in this House, but which does not penetrate into those palatial chambers in Pall Mall. We had a representative conference of the Liberal Party at Leeds in November last. Men were gathered from all parts of the country, and it was my honour to move a resolution, which I venture to quote in this House, That resolution was—

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    "That the best interests, both of Great Britain and Ireland, imperatively require that the great effort to give a better Government to Ireland which was begun by Mr. Gladstone should be firmly persevered in until a desirable settlement is arrived at; that such settlement must meet the wishes of the Irish electors, as expressed by their Constitutional Representatives in Parliament; and that the only plan which will satisfy either the justice or the policy of the case is that of an Irish Legislative Body for the management of what Parliament should decide to be distinctively Irish affairs."
    That resolution was drawn with great care, and I think that within it are to be found the elements of a desirable settlement of the Irish Question, and that without the lines of that resolution no permanent settlement can be arrived at. I think that, by adopting measures in harmony with that declaration, and by that course only, shall we be doing what lies in our power to bring about the realization of that prayer with which we begin our proceedings every day—namely, that the result of our deliberations may lead to the uniting and knitting together of the hearts and estates of all within this Realm.
    MR. LYELLsaid, he was anxious to say a few words on this debate, being a Scottish landlord, who, within the last few weeks, had taken the trouble to go over to Ireland to try and judge for himself of the position of the Irish small tenantry; and, as far as in him lay, to understand the apparently irreconcilable differences which pervaded the discussion of the Irish Question in Parliament and throughout this country. For this purpose he visited the West and South of Ireland, and not only found much to interest him, but much to instruct him. Coming, as he did, from a district where he was pretty well acquainted with the ordinary system of land tenure and cultivation, to a land where all the arrangements were entirely different, the first thing that mainly impressed him was the absolute difference between the notions of the natural sequence of law and order which prevailed in Ireland and in this country. The Chief Secretary on Friday expressed very well the feeling of this side of the Channel, when he declared that law was for the protection of the many against the few. But the first notion that impressed itself upon him (Mr. Lyell) in Kerry and the West of Ireland was, that the law was regarded by the great bulk of the people for the
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    protection of the few as against the many. The law of the land there was not followed by order, but by disorder, and any addition to the law with the view of promoting order would rather tend in the opposite direction. In fact, the state of feeling among the Irish people had given rise to the common notion that anyone who broke the law was doing a useful and patriotic deed; and if he should be so fortunate as to get into gaol on account of his law-breaking, he became a hero in the eyes of the Irish people, whether he had done rightly or wrongly. And this was more particularly the case if the law-breaking had reference to a question of land tenure or the payment of rent. The law was regarded as an engine for upholding a system of police rule centring in Dublin, of which the chief function in the country districts was to bring home to the minds of the small tenants the rights of the landlord as denned by law, but which did not bring home to the landowning classes the duties they owed to the tenantry. He had twice visited Glenbeigh during the course of the evictions; and, regarding the character of the land and the extraordinary rents charged for it, he would say that if any Scottish farmers were to be asked to pay anything like these rents they would scorn the idea. It was notorious that the money paid as rent was derived from the wages of labour in other districts of the country, and in the harvest fields of England and Scotland. With the increase of machinery in agricultural operations, however, and still more from the general depression in agriculture, those sources of additional income were cut away from them, and now they had only their own holdings to depend upon. It was only natural, therefore, that the rental which they had unguardedly agreed to pay should be in arrear, as it was perfectly impossible to extract it from the land. Glenbeigh was an instance of inconsiderateness on the part of the landowner in allowing a population far in excess of the capabilities of the land to obtain a footing on it; and of the utmost carelessness and cupidity on the part of the mortgagee, who had advanced a large sum of money to the owners on what was absolutely insufficient security, and the tenantry were now paying the penalty. He must say

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    his sympathies, when he saw them, were entirely with the people. In reading over the reports of the denunciations that were levelled against the mortgagee and the owner, he could not think that the terms used were too harsh in condemning a system which led to the wanton and brutal outrage of evicting a number of those wretched peasants in the winter season, and leaving them on the roadside. It was utterly impossible to earn rent there; and the whole system cried out to this country against the use of the forces of the Crown and the law to support what was quite contrary to the most elementary principles of ordinary justice and humanity. If a farmer in Scotland or England gave up his holding at the end of his lease, he was entitled to get from the incoming tenant, or the owner, the value of such improvements as he had made, and such conditions were supposed, in a broad way, to be included in the Land Act of 1881; but the tenant in Ireland could only obtain value for the improvements he had made by public auction from the incoming tenant. Under these circumstances, the tenant found that he could obtain no money equivalent to the improvements he had made. A man who took a holding from which a tenant had been evicted, and on which the tenant's improvements had been confiscated, was called a "land grabber," and was ostracized by all his neighbours. These evictions were not only contrary to our ideas of right and humanity, but were also discrediting the law. How could they wonder that the law was discredited, and that disorder followed its enforcement? For his own part, he believed that the law and the agents of the law, in the shape of a large military police force, were kept up in the interests of the landlord class, with the result that the people were becoming thoroughly demoralized. The other organization for the promotion of order—the National League—was doing a useful work for maintaining peace in the country, and it was in the places where it was least in operation that they found those Moonlight outrages committed which were universally deplored. He thoroughly endorsed the opinion expressed by the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) in one of the debates of last Session, when he said that if the ad-
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    ministration of order were left in the hands of an Irish Executive they would be able to deal effectively with any outrages that occurred. With regard to the question of over-congestion of the people on the land, he had seen that this was the case in the West of Ireland; and he thoroughly endorsed the opinion of the Chief Secretary that this question was one of the most urgent and one of the most difficult that the Administration could undertake; but, for his own part, he did not believe that any Administration framed as the present one was could solve it. There was no doubt that the population there was far in excess of what it ought to be; that was admitted on all hands. The removal of a portion of the people was absolutely necessary; but it was a question which could only be effectively dealt with by a Body which was in sympathy and in harmony with the feelings of the people, and which thoroughly understood the conditions of the case. He felt sure that if more hon. Members would follow his example and go once to Ireland with the desire of impartially examining into the whole question, it would not be difficult to arrive at a settlement which would be final, which would reasonably satisfy the Irish people, which would be honourable to this country, and which would secure the union of the two countries in a bond of peace, amity, and increased prosperity.
    LORD ERNEST HAMILTONsaid, that they had heard in the course of that debate several expressions of indignation at the action of the landlords in Ireland in evicting their tenants. He did not dispute the existence of the evictions, but he denied that they were attributable to tyranny or cruelty on the part of the landlords as had been alleged. The landlords in Ireland had, on the contrary, been doing their utmost to avoid the necessity of evictions, and it was hon. Members opposite who had done everything in their power to encourage evictions. They would all remember that during the debate last autumn on the Tenant Relief Bill they had heard most gloomy forebodings from the hon. Member for Cork. What had turned out to be the case? Instead of the wholesale evictions which had been prophesied, they found the landlords giving great reductions. Although several Irish Members had spoken, in

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    that debate, there had been very little said about the Glenbeigh evictions; in fact, most of the hon. Members opposite had avoided the topic. What was the reason for this? Hon. Members opposite had told their constituents in Ireland that these evictions were the deathblow of Irish landlordism, and that they would proclaim to the English people the tyranny of the Irish landlords. The reason of their reticence now was that full publicity had been given to the facts of these evictions, and that it was seen that, so far from landlords and their agents being rack-renters, they had acted with a forbearance almost unprecedented; and that these evictions had been caused, not by the landlords, but by the operations of hon. Members on the opposite Bench. In reading the accounts of these cases in the papers, it was impossible not to feel pity and commiseration for the unfortunate people; but, at the same time, it was impossible to avoid some feeling of contempt for people who were such absolute slaves as to allow themselves to be duped in order to please a party of unscrupulous agitators. It had been abundantly made manifest that the agent on this estate had shown indulgence to the verge of abandoning the property. Certainly, the landlord and agent on this estate contrasted very favourably with certain Irish Members opposite, who were landlords, and almost all of whom exacted the uttermost farthing from their tenantry. The hon. Member for Cornwall (Mr. Conybeare) had taken an active part in the proceedings at Glenbeigh. It might be well if the hon. Member purchased the estate, which he could obtain very cheaply, and set an example of what a modern landlord should be. Some of the advice he had given to the tenants was remarkable. He had suggested that bailiffs should be brained, and that jurors should commit perjury.
    MR. M. J. KENNY, rising to a point of Order, asked whether the noble Lord was in Order in charging an hon. Member with inciting the Irish people to commit perjury?
    MR. SPEAKERsaid, he understood that the noble Lord was arguing that on the interpretation of a series of speeches they amounted to a recommendation to that course.
    LORD ERNEST HAMILTONsaid, the hon. Member for Cornwall (Mr. Cony-
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    beare) had stated that in the past juries had violated their oaths rather than convict under certain laws that they considered unjust, and he said that was a precedent they should remember. Not a single hon. Member had suggested what he would have done if he had been the landlord of the Glenbeigh estate. Some people seemed to think that Irish landlords took a cruel and vindictive delight in evicting their tenants. But the Irish landlord had everything to lose and nothing to gain by eviction. He lost the goodwill of his tenant and the rent of his farm, for no one would take it when vacant. No landlord, therefore, would think of resorting to eviction unless driven to it. He had listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Darlington (Mr. T. Fry), and had been impressed with its evident sincerity; but that hon. Member declared that he had no sympathy with any tenant who could pay and combined not to do so. He said that from his visit to Glenbeigh he felt convinced that the tenants could not pay. But that there were combinations on certain estates where the tenants could pay was admitted by the speeches of the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon); and if there were such cases, how were the landlords to tell whether it was inability or combination that led to the refusal to pay rent? Speeches delivered in various parts of Ireland by the leaders of the Plan of Campaign showed that those leaders were desirous of pushing on evictions, which served them in various ways. Evictions stirred up ill-feeling against the landlords, afforded fuel for agitation, filled their ranks with reckless men, and secured money from America—money which was not always devoted to the purposes for which it was contributed. What had taken place on the Clanricarde property was very characteristic. The tenants demanded a reduction of 25 per cent, and the landlord subsequently wrote offering 20 per cent. A settlement was about to be arrived at when the hon. Member for Mayo came down from Dublin, and though he had not been there for five years, and could not, therefore, know anything of his own knowledge of the circumstances of the estate, he advised that 40 per cent should be demanded. There was no pretence that in this case the tenants could not pay. The estate had been

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    selected because of the known stubbornness of the Clanricarde tenantry. The hon. Member for Mayo had recently challenged the administrators of the law in Ireland to produce one case in which he had advised tenants to refuse to accept a reasonable reduction. The Woodford case, he held, might be cited conclusively in answer to the hon. Member's challenge. If, at a future time, there should be scenes at Woodford like those which had been witnessed at Glenbeigh, who, he asked, would be to blame—the landlord, or the hon. Member for Mayo? The Nationalist Members were of opinion that landlordism was the great obstacle in the way of separation; and they had, therefore, determined to cut off the supplies of the landlords in order, if possible, to exterminate them. The destruction was sought to be accomplished by a No Rent Manifesto, or by inducing the tenants to ask for impossible reductions of rent. Was it not apparent to everybody that in a case like that of Glenbeigh, where the tenants had not paid rent for five and nine years, something more than a reduction of rent was necessary? The landowning class was credited by hon. Members opposite with the wish to rob and crush the tenants. He could assure the Members to whom he was referring that many of those sitting on his own side of the House would, gladly join with them in any rational movement for the improvement of the tenants' condition if there were the slightest indications that their desire to benefit the tenants was sincere. It was, however, impossible to find any such indications; instead of benefiting the tenants they wished to lower them in order to injure the landlords. Hon. Members opposite never tried to improve the conditions of farming, or to teach the tenants how to make the most of their wretched holdings. Even an insolvent tenant was seldom allowed to sell his interest in his farm; he was compelled to wait in order that he might resist eviction. The boast of the hon. Member for Mayo that at this moment 400 farms in Kerry were derelict, no tenant daring to set his foot upon them, showed to what a state the interference of hon. Members opposite had reduced the country. He thought that if all the parties concerned were to co-operate, much might be done to raise the tenants
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    —even those at Glenbeigh—to positions of comparative affluence. At present, the different parties were directing their energies to one another's injury, and the landlord was unwilling to improve his property, because experience taught him that if he were to spend every farthing of his income upon it he would still be held up to odium as a rack-renter, and his tenants would still be induced to withhold their rents. If the landlords, the parish priests, and the Nationalists combined to effect it, the condition of the tenants might be improved; but as long as this war between the landlords and the Nationalists continued their condition might get worse and worse. The National League might succeed in ruining some hundreds of landlords; but they would ruin hundreds of thousands of tenants. He would remind the Government that there were other measures besides coercive and repressive measures by which the National League could be met and defeated. There was the compulsory measure of which hon. Members opposite were in great terror, which would cause every tenant to become an owner. This was the vulnerable point in the armour of the Nationalists. When every tenant should have become the owner of his holding—from that moment the National League would die a natural death. The patriotism of Irishmen was ruled by worldly considerations, and as soon as tenants should find that no gain could result from agitation they would cease to pour their contributions into the pockets of hon. Members opposite.
    MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, in rising to take part in this somewhat discursive debate, he desired to refer to the very able speech of the noble Lord the Member for Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill) on the subject of economy, and in doing so he would endeavour to observe the wise spirit of conciliation and absence of Party recrimination that characterized the remarks of the right hon. Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone). He fully admitted, for his part, that the present rate of Expenditure was due to the concurrent action of both sides of the House; and that it could only be alleviated and reversed by a concurrent movement on both sides of the House in an opposite direction. Looking at the changes of Government that had

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    taken place in the last two or three years, and that might take place in the next two years, nothing, in his opinion, could be more detrimental to the interests of the public, and of the Services, than that there should be Party division on the subject, and that there should be violent fluctuations in economy and expenditure. The Liberal record during the last three or four years had not been so satisfactory that they could afford to throw stones at the present Government; and he must admit that any immediate considerable reduction beyond the very modest sum to which the noble Lord was prepared to limit his demands was rendered impossible by the obligations contracted by the late Government either in the autumn of 1885 or in the middle of last year. Any movement in the direction of economy must be slow, but he hoped it would be permanent. He hoped, also, that both sides of the House would concur in making the effort. The noble Lord had done an immense service to the country, and to his own Party, by sacrificing himself on the altar of economy in the Military Departments. He thought also that the noble Lord was fully justified in dealing with the Estimates in gross—in calling the attention of the two great spending Departments to the fact that their Estimates, compared with three or four years ago, had greatly increased; and in demanding from them a return to more moderate expenditure without specifying any particular items. The right hon. Member for Westminster (Mr. W. H. Smith) had challenged the noble Lord to meet the Government on the details, and had promised to justify each one of them. He knew from experience extending over 20 years that such a course must be delusive. Very plausible arguments could always be adduced to support every item in the Estimates taken separately; and yet in the aggregate it might not be wise, or right, or justifiable that all the items should be taken together and at one time. The Expenditure during the last three years had increased by upwards of £6,000,000. That was due to a variety of demands from the two great spending Departments—the demand foriron-clads, armed cruisers, torpedo-boats, protection to coaling stations, protection of mercantile and military harbours, and provision of arma-
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    ments. For all those, as he had said, plausible and excellent arguments could be found. The question, however, was not whether these things were necessary or desirable, but whether the expenditure on all of them should be undertaken at the same time. It seemed to him that that was a point that could not be well discussed on the Army and Navy Estimates. It could only be discussed in principle, and at the instance of the Government itself. And, therefore, in his opinion, the noble Lord was quite right in calling upon the Departments to marshal their demands in their proper order. It was only the Departments that could form an opinion as to which of the various items were the most important. An illustration of the difficulty of dealing with large items of Naval Expenditure was furnished by the unsuccessful efforts he made last year to reduce the outlay by the cost of two large iron-clads, which were estimated at nearly £1,000,000 each, entailing a charge on the next four years of about £500,000 each year. Never, he thought, was a stronger case made out. It was shown that the French Government had laid down two vessels of the same kind, and that they then abandoned their intention of building them, and, indeed, of building any more iron-clads. It was also shown that the present and the late Chief Constructors were opposed to the designs of these vessels; and yet, although he did not ask for the absolute rejection of the Vote, but only for the postponement of the expenditure until the matter had received further consideration, he failed entirely, and he was out-voted on a Division by a rush of Members who had not heard the debate. He had never known any good to result from a general discussion of the items of the Army or the Navy Estimates, and any attempt to effect economy in this way was absolutely hopeless. It could be effected only through the action of the Treasury upon the great spending Departments. As to the course suggested by the noble Lord of remitting the Estimates to a Committee, if it were to be adopted every year it would lead to an increase of expenditure rather than the reverse, because it would relieve the heads of Departments from responsibility by devolving it upon the Committee, upon whom the pressure of the spending interests would be stronger

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    than they could resist. At the same time, it was worthy of consideration whether once in a way, and especially at a time when the House was in a mood for economy, the suggested course might not be adopted with advantage; but it should be regarded as an exceptional course, to be resorted to only once in 10 or 15 years. After all, Naval and Military Expenditure must be determined by foreign policy. With what the noble Lord said on that head he cordially concurred. If we were really to pursue a spirited foreign policy in the East, and to be ready to go into conflict with the great Military Powers of Europe, then our Military Expenditure was not only not excessive, but it was not enough. But he believed that the country would adapt the expression of Prince Bismarck to our case, and would say that in such a policy as that we ought not to risk the life of a single Englishman or the loss of a single Sovereign. As to Egypt, there were few who did not at this time deplore that we ever entered upon an Egyptian campaign, and who did not regret that we found ourselves in the occupation of Egypt. Few would now say that we had derived any real advantage from that occupation. He even doubted whether the right hon. Member for Mid Lothian was right in saying that the Egyptians had benefited by it. In his belief, the only parties who had gained were the bondholders, and they were not entitled to sympathy. The occupation of Egypt was the main cause of the large increase of Military Expenditure the last few years, for, as the result of our occupation, there was the greatest ill-feeling in France towards this country. The French did not believe that we were sincere in our announced intention to withdraw. If we could make France and the other Great Powers of Europe understand that we intended to leave at no distant day, and if we could invite their co-operation so as to make it more easy for us to leave, we might get rid of the hostile feeling there was against us, and the main cause for this large expenditure would be disposed of. Referring to Ireland, if he rightly understood the speech of the Chief Secretary, the Government in no case had refused to give the aid of the police or the military to any process of eviction when they had been finally called upon to do so; but,
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    when asked to lend these forces, they had brought moral pressure to bear upon landlords with the view of effecting arrangements between them and their tenants. The Chief Secretary said that suggestions were made to creditors to induce them to be merciful to their debtors. That was a roundabout way of saying that pressure was put upon landlords to induce them to abate their rents. For his part, he had no fault to find with the Chief Secretary in this respect. In the circumstances in which he found himself he was thoroughly justified in adopting the course he did adopt. He had done only what any humane statesman would have done in his position, and little or no hostile criticism would be directed against him from the Opposition side of the House on that account. But it would be interesting to hear from the right hon. Gentleman a little further explanation of the exact nature of the pressure he brought to bear on the landlords. He believed he was right in assuming that one of the landlords dealt with in that way was Lord Clanricarde, who, up to a late date, had declined to make any abatement in his rents. It was said that the agent of the estate—Mr. Joyce—in his evidence before Lord Cowper's Land Commission, had stated that he had advised Lord Clanricarde that the rents ought to be abated, and that if they were abated that part of the country would be quiet; but Lord Clanricarde still declined to offer any abatement. Later in the autumn pressure was brought to bear upon him by the Chief Secretary, and then, tardily, he made some reductions. It would be interesting to know the nature of the correspondence which passed between the Chief Secretary and Lord Clanricarde. It might throw a good deal of light on the whole situation, and show what was the argument which induced Lord Clanricarde to make that tardy abatement. It might show whether it was made on account of the great depression and fall in prices, or on account of the condition of Ireland. He (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) believed it was on the ground of the great fall of prices; and this was important as regarded both the past and the future. In July last the Government denied that there was any emergency; they denied that there had been any such fall in prices as would justify

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    the passing of any temporary measure; and, therefore, asked the House to reject the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell). The Chief Secretary, at the same time, admitted that if there were a considerable number of tenants who could not pay their judicial rents, Parliament ought at once to relieve them from the possibility of eviction until their case could be further considered. As, however, he did not at that time believe that prices had fallen beyond the expectation of the Land Commissioners, he invited Parliament to reject the Bill; but, after a too short holiday, he went to Ireland, and found the circumstances of the case and the depression in agriculture such as necessitated and compelled a course of action quite different from that which he had contemplated. Thereupon he began to put that pressure upon landlords of which the Opposition certainly did not disapprove. Personally, he voted for the temporary Bill with great hesitation, feeling that it was a serious matter to interfere with the operation of the Land Act of 1881, and that nothing but a strong case could justify their doing so. He still believed that it was a great and important measure; but, after listening last Session to the case of the hon. Member for Cork, he was bound to admit that the fail in prices had been so great as to justify the temporary measure then proposed. He certainly thought it would be very unjust that the whole of the loss due to the fall of prices after the rents were judicially fixed should fall on the tenants alone. It was on that account that he felt it right to vote for the Bill which was brought in by the hon. Member for Cork, and he thought some measure in that direction was still necessary to the peace of Ireland. The action of the Government and of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, in rejecting the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork in July last, had practically thrown upon them the responsibility of the trouble that had arisen in Ireland during the past few months; indeed, it appeared to be admitted now by the Chief Secretary from the action he had taken in Ireland, and the pressure he had brought to bear upon the landlords, that a mistake was made in July last in throwing out that Bill. The position of things at that time was very similar to
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    what it was in 1880, when the House of Lords rejected the Compensation for Disturbance Bill, and when in the winter that followed there were evictions on the one hand, and crime and outrages on the other. In the present case, the pressure by the Government on the landlords and the Plan of Campaign were the consequence of the rejection of the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork. As to the Plan of Campaign, if the Chief Secretary's description of it was right—namely, that it was intended to give to the tenants of Ireland the possession of their tenancies without paying rent—he should heartily condemn it. No one condemned more strongly than he did the issue of the "No Rent" Manifesto in 1881; and he should take the same course with regard to the Plan of Campaign if such were its object. But it must not be supposed that on that account he condemned absolutely all combinations of tenants under all circumstances in Ireland. He would take a case in illustration. On Lord Dillon's property in Ireland there were several thousands of small tenants occupying from one to 10 acres each; and those tenants suffered greatly, not merely from agricultural depression, but also from the difficulty of obtaining employment away from their holdings. He believed he was right in saying that up to a very late period Lord Dillon had declined to make any abatement in the rent. What were the tenants to do in such circumstances? Singly they were helpless against the landlord, living in England, and managing his property through an agent. Was it strange, then, that they should be advised that by union and combination they might become strong? Was it surprising that these poor tenants should take this advice and combine for their mutual interests? They did combine, and they made an offer to the landlord by which they resolved to stand or fall together. The result was that Lord Dillon came to terms with the tenants; an abatement of 20 per cent was made over the whole estate; the decrees that had been issued against about 70 of the tenants were withdrawn; and peace, instead of disorder, now reigned on the property. He doubted whether any hon. Member of that House would condemn combination under such conditions as those to which he had just referred. Looking at the question from a purely legal point of

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    view, however, he was obliged to admit that those poor men were all engaged—according to the law of the country—in a criminal conspiracy for which they might have been indicted; and those who advised them were parties to the conspiracy. He knew something about the law of conspiracy, because, some years ago, he had to consider it carefully with reference to trade unions, whose combinations were then illegal, although so far as those organizations were concerned the law had since been altered. He did not hesitate to say that the Law of Conspiracy was the most dangerous, difficult, and elastic part of our law, and could be twisted by a Judge so as to include almost any act. He recollected one case in which it was held that, although it was perfectly legal for one man to refuse to pay Church rates, and to put the clergyman to legal remedies of distress, yet that a combination of two or more persons to do the same thing was an illegal conspiracy. He had no doubt that the Welsh farmers who, by joint action, were now trying to get a reduction of the tithe, were guilty of conspiracy, and might be indicted. The Law of Conspiracy was wholly Judge-made law. He believed there was no similar law in any other country in Europe. It might be that in some cases it was desirable that this law should be maintained; but it was not a law which, on the whole, commended itself to the public feeling of this country. The application of this law was, however, controlled by the healthy action of juries, which very often refused to convict. If the Welsh farmers, or the tenants of Lord Dillon, were put upon their trial, few men in this country would find them guilty of conspiracy. In ordinary times he should condemn morally combinations to reduce judicial rents; but under the circumstances of the moment, looking to the admitted necessity for the reduction of rents, he was forced to the conclusion that combination such as he had described, when carried out with moderation, was not unjustifiable, even if it infringed the Law of Conspiracy. The question, then, before the House was, what ought to be done with the present state of things in Ireland? He feared from the speech of the Chief Secretary that the Government had resolved to adopt the old plan of measures of coercion on the one hand,
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    and of concession on the other. It was known that Lord Cowper's Commission had already come to the conclusion that judicial rents could not be sustained; and he was certain that when the evidence of that Commission was in the hands of the Government, they would see the absolute necessity of making some changes in the Land Act of 1881. What had occurred, and was occurring, in Ireland, was the direct result of the neglect of Parliament, and of the Government, to apply a remedy at the time it was required. Matters would only be made worse by pursuing further a course of criminal proceedings, and by endeavouring to bolster them up by changes of law and coercive measures. If there was any lesson that had been more clearly taught than another by the past 86 years in Ireland, it was the failure of the mixed policy of coercion and concession. Coercive measures had invariably blighted the remedies and frustrated the desires and intentions of Parliament. The Chief Secretary had stated that the Union could not be preserved unless law was maintained. He himself believed that the Union could not be preserved in its present position, even if the law was maintained. But there was an earlier condition—a condition precedent even to the maintenance of the law—and that was that the law itself should be just, and that remedies for admitted evils should be applied without delay, and in answer to the demands of the Irish people—demands constitutionally expressed by their 86 Members.
    MR. CURZONsaid, he was desirous of expressing his confidence in the Government; and if that expression of feeling came from one who had not before spoken in the House, yet he hoped the House would extend to him that patience it had always shown on similar occasions. The right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down seemed to be in the position of one who was anxious to make out something against Her Majesty's Government, or, at all events, something in favour of their opponents; but he laboured under the initial difficulty of lacking materials—he was trying to make bricks without straw. At the end of the right hon. Gentleman's speech, he (Mr. Curzon) was left in total doubt whether the right hon. Gentleman was more in agreement, or disagreement, with

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    Her Majesty's Government. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Government contemplated measures of coercion. Now, coercion they knew was a nickname adopted by hon. Members on the other side of the House for any measure for the suppression of crime. But, understanding by coercion attempts made by the Legislature to detect and punish crime, the very essence of which was that they were exceptional and temporary, he believed he was right in saying that the Government had no intention of introducing coercion. The measures to be introduced by the Government—as he gathered from the Queen's Speech—were measures for the amendment of the Criminal Law, and they would be neither exceptional nor temporary, but permanent and possibly universal. Therefore, the argument as to coercion fell to the ground. With the leave of the House he would allude to observations which had fallen from some hon. Members that night. The hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh), who opened the discussion that evening, in the analytical examination to which he subjected Her Majesty's Speech, made some remarks on foreign policy, and pointed out an apparent discrepancy between the terms of that Speech and a passage in a letter from Lord Salisbury, which was read the other night by the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill), and he asked how they were to be reconciled. The Queen's Speech said that the Government did not apprehend any disturbance of European peace; but Lord Salisbury's letter had said that the chances were in favour of war. Now, a sufficient explanation of that discrepancy, if indeed it existed, might be found in the difference of dates. The letter was written on December 22, and the Speech was delivered on January 27, and they all knew that the face and form of European politics changed with Protean swiftness. But, as a matter of fact, no such discrepancy existed at all. It was evident that the hon. Member had not read that portion of the Speech which he affected to quote. Lord Salisbury said—
    "The outlook on the Continent was very black, and it was not too much to say that the chances were in favour of war at an early date."
    That, presumably, referred to the chances of war between France and
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    Germany. But in the Queen's Speech they read—
    "The affairs of South-Eastern Europe are still in an unsettled condition; but I do not apprehend that any disturbance of European peace will result from the unadjusted controversies which have arisen in that region."
    That was clearly limited to the Balkan Peninsula, and therefore it was perfectly obvious that there was no such discrepancy as the hon. Member for Northampton supposed, and in bringing the matter before the House he had acted both with precipitancy and ignorance. He would like, however, to have suggested to the hon. Member, if he had been now present, that there was another authority possessed of superior information to the Government—information enjoyed by no other Government in Europe—upon the chances of war in Europe; an authority with which, no doubt, the hon. Member was acquainted—namely, the editor of The Daily News; and, if rumour was right, behind the editor of The Daily News loomed the commanding and inscrutable personality of the senior Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere). Therefore he ventured to say the hon. Member for Northampton might have derived the information hedesired from the domestic circle of which he formed one of the most important Members. The hon. Member for Northampton blamed the unwise and irritating policy of the Government, and said that, in his opinion, it was likely to lead to war; yet not a single fact was advanced or reason stated for that opinion. The hon. Member wished to know whether the Government desired peace or war? He must have a very poor opinion of Governments in general if he thought any Government desired war. Turning to other speeches, the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington had said that he had spent a good deal of time in wrestling with the Conservative Party. He (Mr. Curzon) had no desire to wrestle with the noble Lord, because he knew perfectly well that the result would be the fate which befell Jacob in his historic contest with the Angel. But, much as he admired and entirely as he agreed with a great part of the speech of the noble Lord, he must say there was one expression in it which gave pain to both sides of the House. It was when he described Gentlemen sitting on the opposite side, who were known as

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    Liberal Unionists, by the somewhat undesirable metaphor of "a political crutch" on which the Tory Party was obliged to lean in order to support its tottering steps. Then the noble Lord said he looked forward to the time when the Tory Party would cast off this fortuitous aid and walk alone. The term "crutch" was not one which was complimentary to the Gentlemen referred to, nor did it truly represent either their relations to the Conservative Party or their position in the State. What he thought was more serious was that it was not complimentary to the Conservative Party, because it implied that they were in the condition of the halt and maimed, and could not walk alone. But he did not think there was any harm in confessing that the Liberal Unionists were to them as a staff. Then, so far from looking forward to the time when the Conservative Party should be anxious to walk alone, he hoped that many of the hon. Gentlemen opposite would walk, not temporarily, but permanently with them. He was quite certain they did not suffer by contact with the Conservatives, and he did not think the Conservatives had suffered by contact with them. Already there had been evident certain improvements in the political demeanour of that Party, which he thought he might attribute to Conservative influences; and he thought that they might be capable of still further amelioration. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone), in his speech the other night, re-awakened those old principles of economy which used to be the cherished watchwords of his Party, but which had recently fallen into such sad disrepute. As the right hon. Gentleman was uttering these remarks, the House must have regretted very much that the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Peter Rylands) was not in his place to witness the triumph of his lifetime. The right hon. Gentleman passed on to criticize the structure of the Government. He severely blamed the structure of the present Government, and spoke in terms of condemnation of the divorce between the functions of the First Lord of the Treasury and Prime Minister, and of the concentration of the Offices of Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister in a single man. He said there had been no instance of the former for a period of 170 years; and
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    that to the latter there were formidable objections, to which he knew of no compensating advantages. But the question was not one of abstract right or Constitutional precedent, but of simple expediency. The right hon. Gentleman had spoken of the "wanton rupture of an old-established and invariable practice." Had the other side of the House never perpetrated such a wanton rupture? Had not its occupants committed a more wanton rupture of a practice, if not as old established, at any rate more invariable—a practice, moreover, which had been the fixed tradition of this country, the fixed principle of the opposite Party, and the fixed policy of the right hon. Gentleman. The charge of the transgression of Constitutional principles hardly came well from a quarter which had been guilty of greater violations. [An hon. MEMBER: What violation?] Why, Home Rule. He did not think the argument about the concentration of Offices came with an altogether good grace from the Leader of the Opposition. It was not long ago since he filled the two Offices of Chancellor of the Exchequer and First Lord of the Treasury, and was Prime Minister as well—Lord Salisbury was two in one, but the right hon. Gentleman was three in one. Then the right hon. Gentleman said there was no compensating advantage in the present combination of the Offices of Foreign Secretary and Prime Minister. But the advantage was that at a time of European crisis and danger the Seals of the Foreign Office were in the hands of Lord Salisbury. He would next turn to a subject of more pressing interest—namely, Ireland. They had been told that the Plan of Campaign had been blessed by an Archbishop. It had also been praised by the hon. Member for Northampton. It was probably the first time in his life that the hon. Member had found himself in the same boat with an Archbishop. Hon. Members opposite boasted that it was they who had organized the Plan of Campaign. He must confess that he did not think that the patronage of Irish Members lent a movement any especial sanctity. The Plan of Campaign had also had the honour of the advocacy of an English Member. It had received the Constitutional and moderate support of the hon. Member for the Camborne Division of Cornwall

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    (Mr. Conybeare). The hon. Member might, perhaps, give them a speech similar to the one he recently delivered in Ireland. [Mr. CONYBEARE: Hear, hear!] The hon. Member cheered; and, therefore, he (Mr. Curzon) would tell the House his humble impression of that speech. As he read it he could not help thinking that he must have been in church—a somewhat extraordinary connection, he admitted—but in church on the first day of Lent, when the Commination Service was read from the desk. For, if hon. Members compared the Service and the speech, they would find an almost precisely similar volume of imprecation in each. He hoped, also, that the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell) would give expression to his opinion on this subject. From a cause which they all deplored, the hon. Member had not, as yet, pronounced upon the question. But the hon. Member for East Mayo, in addressing an audience at Enniscorthy, had said that the Leader of the Home Rule Party in that House had abstained from expressing his views from motives of public policy; and that never since he took his stand on an Irish platform for Irish nationality had he served the Irish people more effectually, with greater spirit, or with more self-denial, than he was then doing. Those words were rather singular, for the inference naturally suggested by them, and by what they had since heard, was that Mr. Parnell was prostrated on a bed of sickness from motives of public policy, and that he served his Party most effectually when he was absent from the scene of action. That was, he thought, a legitimate conclusion to draw. The other night the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition had delivered some remarks about the Plan of Campaign. Hitherto the right hon. Gentleman had observed a curious silence on the subject, and, though appealed to on the point, gave no reply. There were a good many hon. Members who hoped that when the right hon. Gentleman rose to speak the other night he would utter something definite upon this point; and yet his language appeared to be either an exculpation of the Plan of Campaign, or to approximate to an exculpation so closely that there was not more than the difference between tweedledum and tweedledee. But at the very time
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    the right hon. Gentleman was speaking two of his former Colleagues were also speaking on the same subject. One of them furiously denounced the Plan of Campaign, and the other said that he abominated every form of illegality. Yet, at the same time, the right hon. Gentleman opposite was trying to throw the rags of respectability round the naked form of the scheme which the best of his old Colleagues denounced. If the right hon. Gentleman were in the House, he (Mr. Curzon) would take the liberty of repeating the question put to him the other day, as to whether he did or did not approve of the Plan of Campaign? He was aware that there were some hon. Members on the opposite Benches who had said they were not called upon to pronounce an opinion upon the Plan of Campaign until the Law Courts had given their verdict. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) had just given that excuse, and it had also been given by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stirling (Mr. Campbell-Banuerman), although, when they remembered the latter announced to the country that he had "found salvation," they might have expected him to give a better leading to the public conscience. In answer to this argument, he would say that it was very much the same as if a man were to claim to be excused from giving his opinion about the legality or illegality of theft until a particular jury of his countrymen had pronounced a verdict upon a particular thief. In justification of the Plan of Campaign, they had been told that it was a consequence of the rejection by the House of the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork. No doubt it was a practical consequence, and it had been consequent in point of time. The Plan of Campaign was the second move in a well-thought-out and well-organized game of hon. Members opposite, in which the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork was the first move. It was within the knowledge of almost all hon. Members that the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork was introduced in order that it might be thrown out. [Cheers, and cries of "No!"] That Bill was introduced in order that it might be thrown out, and the Plan of Campaign had been set up in order that it might be put down. He would admit that the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork was

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    nominally introduced for the benefit of the tenants, and he would not deny the sincerity with which hon. Members opposite advocated it. But the Plan of Campaign had not even been nominally introduced with that object. The Plan of Campaign had been introduced simply as an attack upon landlordism, and as a challenge to the Government of this country. That the Plan of Campaign was the logical or the inevitable consequence of the rejection of the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork he entirely denied. Could anyone say that if the Bill had not been rejected they would never have heard of the Plan of Campaign? It was perfectly notorious that the majority of cases in which the Plan of Campaign had been applied, or attempted to be applied, were cases which would not have been touched by the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork had it been passed. The two chief provisions of the hon. Member's Bill were—first, a limitation of the application of the Bill to tenants under the Irish Land Act of 1881; and, secondly, a limitation of the relief of abatement of rent to those who had paid half of their year's rent for 1886 and half the antecedent arrears. It was within the knowledge of the House that, in the majority of the cases where the Plan of Campaign had been applied, very few of the cases came within the first limitation, and hardly any under the second. In the Glenbeigh case the tenants were not legal tenants at all, but squatters who had retaken forcible possession of their holdings; they would not come under the first limitation, and there was not a single tenant who would have come under the second by paying half his rent for 1886 and half the arrears. He thought he had clearly established that there was no connection whatever between the rejection of the Bill of the hon. Member for Cork and the Plan of Campaign. While they had heard in that House from some hon. Members on the other side faint disapproval of the Plan of Campaign, and from others, including the Leader of the Opposition, what sounded like faint praise of it, he believed there was but one opinion of it throughout the country, and that was an absolute chorus and tempest of indignant condemnation. If the Plan of Campaign were a challenge to the Government, he hoped they would take it up, not in the interest of
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    the landlords—though some pity might be felt even for them—but in the superior interests of the principles of property, order, and law. In this matter, he believed, public opinion was decidedly ahead of Parliamentary opinion. In that House opinion was largely formed by nice calculations of votes and the prospects of the Lobbies; but public opinion was uninfluenced by anything of that kind. It looked at things from a broader standpoint and with much clearer vision, and had pronounced in an unmistakable voice that the conspiracy should be stamped out. Hon. Members opposite had spoken in feeling terms of the miseries which Irish tenants suffered, and of the cruelties to which they were subjected; but he was tempted to ask why these hon. Members were silent during the domination of the right hon. Member for Mid Lothian, when scenes of infinitely greater and more horrible cruelty were being perpetrated day and night in all parts of Ireland. They had heard about the barbarities of the crowbar, and the smoking thatch; but, in his opinion, there were worse barbarities still—namely, those of the loaded gun, the mutilated animals, and the murdered women and men. Irish Members raised a great clamour about the former; but through the latter they sat as silent as stones. Nothing showed more clearly the hollowness of this agitation than the conduct of hon. Members now and their former attitude. In face of this Plan of Campaign, which had been so cleverly organized, was it not permissible that Conservative Members should have their Plan of Campaign also? In that House, and on every platform in the country, they would have their Plan of Campaign to meet that of hon. Members opposite; but it would be a Plan of Campaign without any suspicion of violence, or illegality, or intrigue. On that side of the House they would lose no opportunity of meeting their opponents in discussion, and of endeavouring to substitute sense for sentimentalism—of meeting their arguments by arguments, and of confronting their statements with facts. That, he believed, was the Plan of Campaign which ought to be, and would be, adopted by Conservative Members of Parliament, and it was one the success of which with the public opinion of the country could not for a moment be doubted.
    MR. LABOUCHERE: I beg to congratulate the hon. Member who has just sat down on the speech to which the House has been listening. We have seldom heard a more clever and, certainly, seldom a more lively, maiden speech. He has spoken more in dispraise than in praise, and has made a series of attacks on hon. Members on this side of the House. He commenced by attacking my hon. Colleague (Mr. Bradlaugh). He said my hon. Friend showed his ignorance by insisting that there was some difference in the tone of the letter with regard to foreign politics that the noble Lord read at Paddington and the tone of the Address. This, he said, was a mistake, because in the letter Lord Salisbury had merely said the outlook was black, whilst in the Speech he said there was not likely to be a disturbance in the South-East of Europe. We can well understand that Lord Salisbury thinks, rightly or wrongly, that there will soon be a great conflagration in Europe, but thinks it will not break out in the South-East of Europe, but on the Rhine. We are confirmed in that, not merely by the statement of the noble Lord the Member for Paddington, but by his remarks as to his own impression of what took place in the Cabinet. He thinks that these large armaments Lord Salisbury is asking of us are mainly due to a belief that before long there will be a great war, and to the fact that Lord Salisbury wishes to play a great part in it. That Lord Salisbury does want to play a great part there is no doubt. ["No, no!"] No? Then does he want to play a little part in it? I regard Lord Salisbury as the great perturbator of the peace of Europe. When Prince Bismarck and everyone was trying to calm down the Balkan Provinces and prevent Austria and Russia going to war, what did Lord Salisbury do? Why, he made a Jingo speech at the Guildhall, in which he said that if Austria went to war she would not go alone. We know from the past career of Lord Salisbury that his opinion is that we ought invariably to meddle in European disputes. We know from the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington, his own Colleague, that at present he believes that a European war will break out, and that, therefore, we may legitimately suppose that he is most anxious
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    and desirous of meddling in that war. Having thus attacked my hon. Colleague the junior Member for Northampton, the hon. Gentleman proceeded to attack the senior Member—myself. I will not waste the time of the House by replying to attacks on so humble an individual. Having done that, the hon. Gentleman flew at higher game, and attacked the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington. He was indignant with the noble Lord for saying that the Liberal Unionists were a "crutch." He considered that an offensive epithet, and declared that the Liberal Unionists were not a "crutch," but a staff to right hon. Gentlemen in Office. I confess I cannot see much difference between a "crutch" and a "staff." The hon. Member then attacked the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone). He was indignant at the right hon. Gentleman's complaining of Lord Salisbury holding the two Offices of Prime Minister and Secretary for Foreign Affairs. He said it was monstrous that the right hon. Gentleman should protest against this, even though it were a fresh precedent, seeing that he (Mr. W. E. Gladstone) had himself established a fresh precedent in bringing in a Home Rule Bill. I confess I could not follow the argument of the hon. Member there precisely. It seems to me, as a matter of fact, most undesirable that Lord Salisbury should hold these two Offices. When Lord Salisbury replied to the charge of departing from Constitutional precedent in holding the Offices of Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary at the same time, he said he was under the control of the Cabinet. Under the control of the Cabinet! Then the hon. Member attacked the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Camborne Division of Cornwall (Mr. Conybeare), and said his speech would remind every man in the House of the Commination Service on the first day of Lent. Well, it did not remind me, for the simple reason that I never happen to be in church on the first day of Lent. Having attacked these Gentlemen, and having attacked the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Parnell)for shamming an illness in order to avoid condemning the Plan of Campaign—
    MR. CURZON: I must correct that; it is not a fair statement of what I said. What I

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    did say was, that I sympathized with, the causes which had prevented the hon. Member for Cork from expressing his opinion, but that a new light seemed to be thrown on those causes by certain passages which I quoted from a speech delivered by the hon. Gentleman.
    MR.LABOUCHERE: The hon. Member implied that it was a political illness; but I will not dwell on the point further. The hon. Gentleman then passed to what we usually do pass on to in these debates—namely, to the question of Ireland. The hon. Member, as is usual on that side of the House, denounced the Plan of Campaign. In one thing I can agree with him. I think the Speech from the Throne does in no measured words denounce the Plan of Campaign, and proposes that the Plan should be met by changes in the Criminal Law—that is to say, in other words, by coercion. It seems to me, from observations I have heard from hon. Members on both sides of the House, that hon. Gentlemen are under a misconception as to what is the meaning of individual ownership in land. No individual, Sir, has any ownership in land. What an individual has is the right to use the land, and he only has that right on condition that he makes a proper use of it—that is to say, renders it productive for the common good. In England you generally have landlords who have built houses on agricultural land and have made improvements, and I can understand their having some sort of special property in that which has resulted from their expenditure. But you do not find that condition of things prevailing in Ireland. There the houses and improvements on the land are made by the tenants, and they belong entirely to the tenants; and all the right, therefore, that the landlords should have, should be to receive a ground rent for the use of the land. Well, what is this land for which these landlords have the right to receive rent? It is laid down in the Land Act of 1881. The first charge upon the land is a sufficiency to enable the tenant to live and thrive; the second charge is the rent—that is to say, any margin that remains after the tenant has lived and thrived. The tenant has a preferred charge upon the land, and the second, or deferred, charge is the rent to the landlord if any margin remains. I say the sooner that hon. Gentlemen
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    who are landlords understand that, the better it will be for the country, and the better it will eventually be for themselves. The Land Courts were established to fix judicial rents; these judicial rents were estimated according to the margin after the tenant had lived and thrived, and they were based on the existing prices, but prices have fallen since then; the margin that existed in the judicial rent which was to go to the landlord does not exist at the present moment. Therefore, it does seem to me that as the landlord and tenant are but partners in a joint property, it is monstrous that the landlord should take advantage of there being no margin this year, and of the tenant being unable to pay his ground rent, and not only seize the land, but also the improvements effected by the tenant, and the very house he occupies. Some landlords in Ireland recognize this; but in every class there is a residuum—there is a residuum of bad landlords in Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) admitted that a considerable number of landlords ought not to exact the rent which they are exacting; and the right hon. Gentleman certainly used pressure upon those landlords to prevent them getting such rents from their tenants. I am not in the least complaining of the right hon. Gentleman for having done so. He said that Members on this side of the House had complained. They do not complain of that; but they complain of this—that the right hon. Gentleman himself had, according to his own view, violated the conspiracy law by confederating with the police and the magistrates to use pressure; and that, when he had failed, he then turned round on the Irish Members—who were more clever than himself in exercising pressure on the landlords—and wanted to prosecute them for doing precisely what he had himself attempted to do. It is asserted that some tenants can pay, and I will make that concession; but there are others who cannot pay their full rent, and even those who can pay their full rent are unable to do it from the produce of the land this year. They have to take it from the little store saved through their economy, or receive it from a daughter or other relative who has gone over to America and is in receipt of good

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    wages, or they have to procure it by depriving themselves of a piece of furniture, or something of that kind. What would have happened if the Plan of Campaign had not been undertaken? Why, no doubt there would have been a considerable number of evictions; in all human probability evictions would have led to outrages. If you had turned men out of their houses in considerable numbers—and there are a great many who would have been treated in that way if it had not been for the pressure which has been put upon the landlords—you would have inspired in many breasts a feeling which would have found vent in lawlessness and outrage. Under the circumstances, I consider that the representatives of the Irish people were perfectly right in stepping in. How did they step in? They proposed that all the tenants should subscribe to a common fund; that the subscription should be the amount of what these Representatives thought was the fair and proper rent they should pay; this rent was to be offered to the landlord; if the landlord did not accept it, it was to be kept in hand—not thrown away, but kept in hand, to be used, not to support these tenants, but really to support those evicted by the landlord. The Chief Secretary (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) asserts that there was intimidation; but the right hon. Gentleman has not cited one case, and he cannot cite a single case in which there were speeches of intimidation. The tenants were perfectly ready to come into the Plan of Campaign. They did so voluntarily when the advantages of the Plan of Campaign had been pointed out to them; and if the right hon. Gentleman can cite one case of intimidation, I shall be glad to hear of it. The fact, is that this Plan of Campaign is simply the application of trades-unionism to agriculture. The principle of trades-unionism is that men, working-men, labourers, have a right to combine to make a decent wage to themselves, the first charge upon the property that is brought into existence by their labour and by the money of the capitalist. Well, how did the Government meet this? Why, by attempting to arrest hon. Gentlemen who are concerned in this Plan of Campaign on that old, miserable, and weak law of conspiracy. The law says that one man may do a thing, but that two men in
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    combination may not do it; that one man may do a thing, but that another may not advise him to do it. It will be remembered that this law of conspiracy was brought into operation when first trades-unionism commenced. It was attempted to crush out trades-unionism by means of it; but the artizans of England were strong enough to be able to resist it, and the result was that trades-unions were especially exempted from the law of conspiracy. The landlords of Ireland ought to be thankful for this Plan of Campaign. Take, for instance, the case of Lord Dillon. He has got 75 per cent, of his rent. [An hon. MEMBER: No, 80.] He has got 80 per cent of his rent from a large number of holdings of five and six pounds. Do hon. Gentlemen opposite mean to say that they would not be very thankful to the Members representing their districts, if they would take the trouble to collect 80 per cent of their rents and hand it over to them? Well, now, how do the Government propose to meet the state of things which is existing in Ireland at the present moment? The noble Lord the Member for Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill) tells us that he would do nothing. He is perfectly satisfied with the present state of Ireland. The Chief Secretary (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) would meet the whole question by migration. [An hon. MEMBER: Or emigration.] Migration or emigration, I am not sure which. He said that would meet the case of Glenbeigh, and I think Mr. Goschen, the latest convert to Conservatism, says the same thing. We are told we must have sense and not sentimentality in this matter. Then the noble Lord the Member for Paddington tells us to take what occurred in Glenbeigh as the finest example of the generous magnanimity of Irish landlords. Do you mean to tell me that when these tenants, according to Sir Redvers Buller himself, could not pay one gale and costs, there is anything magnanimous in burning their houses over their heads. We are told by the noble Lord the Member for Paddington that in London persons are turned out of their houses, but supposing that in any part of London a number of these people had built their own houses and made roads, and that there was some ground landlord who had a small ground charge upon the land; and supposing

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    that these men, owing to circumstances over which they had no control, could not pay their rent, what would the inhabitants of the Metropolis say if they saw proceeding through their streets a body of policemen, marching along followed by a number of bailiffs carrying crowbars and petroleum to level the houses of those tenants and burn them to the ground? Should we not regard it as monstrous? I tell you that the opinion of Europe is, that a more monstrous and iniquitous crime has seldom been committed by any country than the crime of Glenbeigh. The Chief Secretary says he does not justify it, but surely it would have been better if he had tempered law with humanity. I do not believe that my right hon. and gallant Friend near me, if he had been Chief Secretary for Ireland, would have consented to send an armed force with an expedition such as was despatched to Glenbeigh to stand by while the bailiffs destroyed the property of those unfortunate people. Lord Salisbury, as the head of the Government, has laid down what his view is of what is to take place in Ireland. And what is his view?
    "It is idle," he said, "to talk of leaving the Irish people to govern themselves. You know very well that they will not govern themselves, but that the majority will govern the minority in a way utterly inconsistent with its rights, and in a manner utterly fatal to all its industrial and commercial hopes."
    That is the real Tory way of looking at the matter, for the Tories will never believe that people can govern themselves—they always think that it is necessary for some superior class to step in and govern them. The result of this is that we are to have one more of those detestable Coercion Bills thrust down the throat of the House of Commons. Surely England ought to have realized by this time that there are only two ways of dealing with Ireland. That is to say by either treating it as a Crown Colony—turning the Irish Members out of the House of Commons, and ruling the country by the sword,—or by some species of Home Rule on the lines proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. Gladstone). Sir, the noble Lord the Member for Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill) alluded to the Liberal Unionists. I do not think that they will very cordially thank him for the view which
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    he expressed in regard to them. It seems they are to trust each other—we have heard a great deal about mutual confidence. None of the Liberal Unionists were returned by Liberal votes at the last Election, and they seem to hope in this House that, if they are faithful to their friends opposite, at the next Election they will again be returned by Conservative votes. The noble Lord has cleared away that delusion from the minds of the Liberal Unionists. They are a "crutch,"—they are to be thrown aside, and the Conservative Party is to run without them in the future. I hope the noble Lord the Member for Rossendale (Marquess of Hartington) will take that declaration to heart. I do not believe what the noble Lord the Member for Paddington said—namely, that the noble Lord, on the other side of the House (Marquess of Hartington) is the crutch of the Conservative Party. I believe he is the bit in the teeth of Gentlemen opposite. I say this, I consider it most improper that the noble Marquess should take his seat on this side of the House; his proper place is on the Benches opposite; and I am surprised that the noble Lord does not see the absolute bad taste of his sitting among the Liberals. When hon. Gentlemen opposite were casting about to find a leader, what did they do? Why, they telegraphed here, there, and everywhere to the noble Marquess, begging him to come back and help them. The noble Marquess declined to join them himself, but he lent them a Gentleman in whom he had confidence to sit on their side of the House. And what has been the result of this action on the part of the noble Marquess? We hear of all sorts of appeals being made, of conferences being held between the noble Marquess and Members of the Government. In fact, the Government do not dare to attempt a policy without coming humbly to the noble Marquess to see first if he agrees with it. The noble Marquess is the master of the position at the present moment; the noble Lord is the master of those who sit on the Treasury Bench, and it does seem to me that he would have pursued—I will not say an honest, because I believe him to be a most honest and honourable man—but I think he would have pursued a far better course if, having this power, he had accepted the

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    responsibilities of it instead of superciliously handing them over to Mr. Goschen, and had taken the lead himself. Then, we had the leader of the other wing of the Liberal Unionists, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain). It seems to me that that right hon. Gentleman hesitated, and doubted as to what he should do. At the General Election, he told everybody that the Union was so paramount a matter that he should support the Conservative Government against any Liberal Government, until the Liberals, by seeing the Conservatives in, were coerced into giving up the policy of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian as to Home Rule. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Chamberlain) has very considerably changed his attitude since the Election. He now informs his friends, the Conservatives, that he will desert them, as he previously deserted his own Party, if their policy is reactionary or inadequate. That is to say, unless the policy of the Government meets with his approval, he will simply vote against them and leave them to take care of themselves. The right hon. Gentleman admits he is in a difficulty—he does not like to vote for the Liberals because they are Home Rulers, and he does not like to vote for the Conservatives because they are Tories. It seems, in fact, that he is only inclined to vote for himself. He appears to be under the impression that he has elaborated, in his own mind, so wonderful a scheme for the settlement of the Irish Question, that Tories and Whigs, Liberals and Radicals, all ought to unite to say, "This is a prophet come down from Heaven. Let us accept him and vote for his proposal." His proposal is somewhat vague. He tells us he wishes to place the question of land before that of Home Rule. We do not; we are pledged to a Home Rule policy. But even on the question of land, so far as I can make out from his speech, he says he intends us to buy all the land that is absolutely worth nothing in Ireland; how it will be paid for, he says, is a secret. The "secret," however, appeared to me to be pretty well divulged, because I find that he says of his plan that it would impose no excessive burden or risk on the taxpayer of the United Kingdom. We do not want it
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    to impose any burden on the taxpayer of the United Kingdom. We think that if there is one thing we ought to resist more than another, it is the idea that English taxpayers should bear any burden or risk in order to buy out Irish landlords. We wish to say to Ireland, "Go, govern yourselves; arrange matters with the landlords just as you like; you must settle these matters yourselves, but when we say govern yourselves we do not intend to put our hands in our pockets for the benefit of landlords, of whom we have the worst and lowest possible opinion." When the Land Question is settled on this most extraordinary plan of the right hon. Gentleman, he is prepared to look into the question of local self-government in Ireland—he would, give Ireland a subordinate local authority, founded, apparently, on the model of that at Birmingham. He looks upon that model, no doubt, as one of the most perfect schemes of self-government that ever existed. The Town Council of Birmingham, however, has the charge of its police, and, as a matter of detail, the Irish Local Authority was not to have charge of the police. When this Body the right hon. Gentleman describes was established, Ireland was to receive an Executive. The right hon. Gentleman protested against refusing to give it an Executive. "We have a Mayor in Birmingham," he said; "why should they not have a Mayor in Ireland? We have a surveyor in Birmingham; why should they not have a surveyor in Ireland? We have a treasurer and other officials in Birmingham; and why should not similar appointments be made in Ireland?" He said that as the Irish people were somewhat silly and easily caught with words, and desired to have high-sounding names for their officials—"I see no reason why you should not call your Mayor a Prime Minister, and your Surveyor a Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, or what you like." This is what the right hon. Gentleman calls a national settlement. I call it a Birmingham settlement. It is a Birmingham settlement that, in my mind, will meet with the approbation of exceedingly few Members of this House. I cannot understand that it will meet with the approbation of the Gentlemen sitting round the Round Table, of whom I see one close by me at this moment. I

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    should like to know about that Conference. I myself was sorry that it was ever held, as it seemed to me to place the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) on an equality with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. Gladstone). For my own part, I do not know why we should not receive the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham. In speaking in the country I have always expressed myself anxious to receive him with open arms, provided that he would repent. I thought, however, that as the preliminary to his being received with open arms by the Liberal Party, he should be prepared to say that our Leader is his Leader, and that our Irish policy is his Irish policy. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to think that, perhaps, the scheme he proposes will not be accepted at once, but that, after a little time, when he has had an opportunity of talking my right hon. Friend the Member for Mid Lothian over, the country will accept this sham and bogus and bastard Parliament that he suggests. I do not think that my right hon. Friend will accept it, and I am certain that hon. Gentlemen from Ireland will not; and I remember this, that at the Leeds Conference, which was attended by my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt), it was laid down that no system of Home Rule would be acceptable to the English Liberal Party that was not acceptable to the Irish Party. I deny that the scheme of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham would be acceptable to the Irish Party; and I, therefore, deny that it would be acceptable to the mass of the Liberal Party all over the country. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham tells us that the Unionists are increasing. Where does he discover that? Did he discover it at Liverpool?—are Gentlemen opposite satisfied with the Liverpool election? I received a letter from a friend to-day giving me an account of a Liberal Unionist meeting which took place in his part of the country. It was termed a "mass meeting" in the newspapers. It was most orderly, and the proceedings were marked with great unanimity; but there was one thing very peculiar about this mass meeting, that it consisted of exactly six men. I venture to say that if the right
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    hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham, or the noble Marquess the Member for Rossendale, were to go into any district—I do not care which—and attempt to pass any resolution opposed to Home Rule, unless the meeting was composed of Tories, they would not be able to do it, if, indeed, they succeeded in securing a hearing. Our army is perfectly sound; there are, no doubt, a certain number of superior Gentlemen in it, and these superior Gentlemen, who have no followers, wish to impose their will upon us, but I tell them that they will not be able to do so. The noble Lord the Member for Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill) told us that the battle had been won. Why, Sir, the battle has not begun yet. We mean to fight on—to fight again and again, until the Home Rule cause prevails. We have nailed our colours to the mast. We are not bound to every detail in the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian. But we recognize Home Rule as stated broadly in that Bill. We want a real, genuine, domestic Legislature for Ireland, with Acts becoming law when they have passed that Legislature, and when they have received the sanction of the Crown; and we want a real, genuine Executive, proceeding from, and dependent upon, that local Legislature. We believe that by sticking to this we shall, in the end, convince the country that we are in the right. We very nearly won at the last Election—we were within 70,000 votes of winning. Hon. Gentlemen opposite cannot believe how bad our organization was; and it must be remembered that we had Gentlemen who are now sitting on this side of the House firing into us during the whole engagement. Do not think that we are going to give up because we have been defeated once. Do hon. Gentlemen think that any of the great reforms we have secured in modern times would have been obtained, if the Party of progress had yielded the cause after one defeat? We mean to go on, because we believe that that is the sole way of promoting peace, affection, and goodwill between this country and Ireland.
    VISCOUNT WOLMER: The House has had the advantage to-night of listening to more than one very brilliant speech, and I venture to say that that which has just fallen

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    from the hon. Member for Northampton is not the least brilliant. I am sorry to have to disturb one of his most cherished delusions; but he has gone up and down the country saying that no Liberal Unionist was returned to Parliament by Liberal votes. I am very sorry to disturb the illusion, but I would point out to him that I am a living example to the contrary. At my election I was opposed by a Tory, and I have beaten a Tory.
    MR. LABOUCHERE: Then you are the only one.
    VISCOUNT WOLMER: I beg to congratulate the hon. Member on his courage, because he has been almost the only Home Rule Liberal who has had the courage to get up and back up through thick and thin the Plan of Campaign. We have waited for a declaration of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. W. E. Gladstone); we hope to hear what Lord Spencer and Lord Granville will have to say in "another place"; and what did they say? Why, that they could pronounce no opinion while judicial proceedings were in progress. As if the matter had not been decided already. The Judges have pronounced the Plan of Campaign in Ireland to be illegal. ["No, no!"] Hon. Members from Ireland contradict me; but I ask them what was the ground upon which the hon. Member for Mayo (Mr. Dillon) was bound over to keep the peace? Those hon. Members toss their heads. The Judges of Ireland—the law of Ireland—already count for nothing with the Nationalist Members. A deliberately pronounced legal opinion is to be met with a toss of the head. I am afraid the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt) has left the House; but if he were here I should like to ask him what is his opinion about the Commandment, "Thou shalt not steal." If asked to pronounce an opinion upon that, would he say—"Oh, let us wait until a burglar I know of is tried at the Old Bailey. Then I will give you my view of that Commandment." The hon. Member for Northampton was much more courageous than that, for he backed up the Plan of Campaign through thick and thin; he has nailed his colours to the mast; and even though the policy should be abandoned by some of his friends, he, like a political Casabianca, will remain to be blown up with the
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    burning deck. For the hon. Member to try to induce us to believe in the legality of the Plan of Campaign, and say it is nothing but trades-unionism, is to play with the intelligence of the House. It is obvious that Irish tenants, like English workmen with their employers are at liberty to combine to make what terms they like before entering into a contract with the landlords; but when once a contract is entered into they must be compelled to abide by it. Then there is another speech, that of the noble Lord the Member for Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill), upon which I would make a few other observations—and I am sorry not to see the noble Lord in his place. The speech I refer to was one in which he sparred all round, and in which he had the goodness to direct many of his remarks to the Liberal Unionists. He spoke of us as a "crutch." He said he would be glad of the opportunity of throwing that "crutch" away—and he wished to see the Conservative Party stand alone, and have nothing to do with the Liberal Unionists. When he said this, I could not help carrying my memory back to the speech he delivered at Dart-ford. I found a copy of that speech in the Library, and with the permission of the House I will read a short extract from it. It was delivered on the 4th of October last. The noble Lord alluded to the Liberal Unionists when speaking of the great sacrifices that the Tory Members had made during the last Session. He said of their success—
    "It has also been due to the loyal, the thoroughly loyal, support which we have received from Lord Hartington, Mr. Chamberlain, and the whole Party of Liberal Unionists."
    But he did not stop there, and this is the passage to which I should like to direct the attention of the House; and I hope the noble Lord the Member for Paddington will reflect upon it if he happens to glance his eye over my speech—
    "The main principle and guiding motive of our policy—and I pray you to bear this in mind—will be to maintain intact and unimpaired the union of the Unionist Party. We know how much—how almost entirely—the future of England depends on the union of the Unionist Party—how every institution which we value, all the liberties which we prize, are, for the time, bound up in the union of that Party. Everything that we do, either in domestic or in foreign affairs, will be subordinate to that cardinal principle, the union of the Unionist Party. I am

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    not ashamed to state, before this great meeting, that we, the present Government, owe much of our existence, and much of our efficiency, to the Unionist Liberals."
    I should like to ask the House which is Philip sober and which is Philip drunk? Was it Philip sober during the delivery of that speech at Dartford, or is it Philip sober to-night? If it was Philip sober at Dartford, what have we heard to-night but a wanton insult to the Liberal Unionists? Sir, it is a great deal more than a wanton insult. From the point of view of the noble Lord himself, it is treason, it is a betrayal of the best interests of England, which, he said, were bound up with the union of the Unionist Party. I take it that it is to-night that the noble Lord has spoken his real mind, for he is now free and unfettered, no longer connected with the Ministry. At Dartford he was a Minister, and he had to speak in a manner of which he knew his Colleagues would approve. If, then, it is to-night that he is speaking his mind, I venture to say that his speech at Dartford, if it was not a burlesque, was an organized hypocrisy. The House knows that, according to our opinion—we may be right or we may be wrong—there is no sacrifice we Liberal Unionists are not prepared to make in order to maintain the Union. But has the House considered what value the noble Lord puts on the Union? It seems to me he cannot value it above £500,000, because he says that if the Government had been willing to allow an economy of £500,000 he would not have left it. Therefore, it being a cardinal principle of the Government to maintain the Union and the union of the Unionist Party, the value he puts upon it is only £500,000. Well, Sir, I do not think that that is the way in which an English statesman should reply to the sacrifices made by men like the noble Marquess the Member for Rossendale (the Marquess of Hartington) and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham. When we Unionists speak of the Union and our intention to sacrifice all to maintain that Union, we mean what we say; and it seems to me, as a Member of the Unionist Party, now that we know the extent of the sacrifice which the noble Lord is willing to make to maintain the solidarity of that Party, that we are well rid of the noble Lord as a
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    Member of the Government. We do not want within the Unionist Party any man who puts the price of the Union at £500,000, and will say one thing in October which he will flatly contradict on the following January. Our course, Sir, is extremely clear. So long as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. Gladstone) makes it a cardinal part of his Irish policy to establish a Legislative Body in Dublin with a complete executive proceeding from it, Liberal Unionists will have nothing to say to him. Beyond that, we are determined to support the present Government in maintaining law and order in Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) spoke the minds of Liberal Unionists when he said that our idea of the maintenance of the law meant a permanent alteration of the law of England and Ireland, and not a temporary addition to it or temporary alteration of it. Our position, I am perfectly aware, is a difficult one. It is not altogether a pleasant one. There are many of our Friends on this side of the House with whom we agree on all other political matters except this question of Irish policy, and with whom it is a great pain to us to differ; but we place, according to our own ideas, this question of the Union before every other question of current politics. It will rest with the Government whether we shall continue to support them. We cannot abandon entirely our Liberal principles, and support them in reactionary legislation. They will not, I hope, go in for reactionary legislation, Sir; but if they do, speaking for myself, I—and I know many others will do the same—shall not be able to give a vote to turn them out. [Laughter.] No; we wish to be perfectly plain with you. There is a third course. If they make us choose between abandoning our seats or our principles, we will abandon our seats. That, Sir, is the position of the Liberal Unionists, and I do not think that the House will consider that the position of the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington is consistent with the position and the ideas of the Party to which I belong. I do not wish to follow the noble Lord through all the length of his speech. I have detained the House too long already; but I wished, on behalf of the Liberal

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    Unionists, to take up the challenge that the noble Lord has thrown down, and to tell him that we are the true Unionists, and not he. I wish to tell him that he is playing to the gallery—that he is not thinking of what is right or wrong, but of what may win an election at some future time. We, for our part, do not follow that course. We believe the Union is the right thing, and we are prepared to sacrifice everything—even our seats—to maintain it.
    THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON): I beg to move the adjournment of the debate.
    Motion made, and Question, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"—(Lord George Hamilton,)—put, and agreed to.
    Debate further adjourned till To-morrow.

    SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE (IRELAND) BILL.— [BILL 1.]
    (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, Mr. Jackson.)

    SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach.)
    MR. HENRY H. FOWLER: I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman opposite whether he regards this as the commencement of a series of reforms in regard to the legal administration of Ireland? There is no matter of more importance as affecting that country than reform of its judicial procedure and its extremely costly judicial administration. The extravagance of the Irish judiciary and the legal branches of its administration is in excess not only of anything in England or Scotland, but I think it would be difficult for the right hon. Gentleman to find a parallel for it in any part of the world. I should like to hear from him something as to the views of the present Government on the matter. The views of the late Government and of Sir George Trevelyan, are thoroughly well known to the House. I should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland would let us know something of his own views to-night. I would call his attention to one particular branch of Irish expenditure in connection with the administration of law. The late Government attempted to deal with it;
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    it is with reference to the amounts paid to the Law Officers of the Crown for their services in their legal capacities. I refer particularly to the salary of the Attorney General for Ireland, which was fixed by the late Administration at £4,000 a-year. The matter formed the subject of a long discussion between the late Irish Administration and the Treasury; and the decision of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer was that while the then Attorney General for Ireland could not be displaced, and was allowed to retain the salary of £5,000 a-year, in future appointments it should be understood that the salaries should be reduced from £5,000 to £4,000, in addition to fees. [Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH dissented.] The right hon. Gentleman opposite shakes his head; but if my memory serves me right, the decision of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer was that, in future, the salary of the Attorney General for Ireland should be £4,000 a-year and fees. I have reason to remember this, because the then Lord Lieutenant (Lord Aberdeen) objected to it, and it was reconsidered; and then the Government deliberately, and, as they thought, finally, settled the question, deciding that £4,000 a-year, in addition to fees, was handsome remuneration for an Irish Attorney General. I should like to ask whether the Attorney General for Ireland is receiving at present £4,000 or £5,000 a-year? I throw out this point as a small part of an enormous saving which might be effected in the cost of Irish legal administration, and which could be effected if expenditure on these matters in Ireland were put in the same position as in this country. By this Bill we are wiping out one Judge in Ireland; but I think we could go further than that in the direction of retrenchment without injury to Irish legal administration. I cordially support the second reading of the Bill.
    THE CHIEF SECRETARY FOR IRELAND (Sir MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH): There is much in what the right hon. Member has said with which I am disposed to sympathize; but I think he has taken too much a Treasury view of the matter. I entirely agree in considering that this Bill is only a step—and a small step—in the work of Irish legal reform, I think there is a great deal required to be done, both in the way of economy and efficiency, in this.

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    field; and certainly I shall do my best, if it be my lot to remain long enough in Office, to attain these ends. But I will remind the right hon. Gentleman that the right hon. Gentleman who sits near him (Mr. Childers) introduced a measure in 1885 for the general reform of the Irish judiciary; but the measure did not get a very favourable reception from the House—in fact, so unfavourable was the reception that it did not succeed in passing a second reading. That is the main reason why, in bringing forward the present Bill, I have attempted to take but a small step first. Though a step, it will be generally, if not almost universally, admitted that the Bill is a good and necessary step as far as it goes, and I will endeavour to proceed with the matter in the future as soon as a reasonable opportunity offers. With regard to the second point made by the right hon. Gentleman. I would say that my own recollection of the position in which the subject was left by the last Government does not at all tally with his. The right hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that the Treasury desired to reduce the salary of the Irish Attorney General to £4,000 a-year; but the Irish Government never consented to that reduction, and when the present Government came into Office they found that the Irish Government had not only strongly protested against the change, but had simply declined to agree to it. I thought there was great force in the contention of the Irish Government; therefore we left the matter in abeyance. The present Attorney General for Ireland receives precisely the same salary as his Predecessor; and though I am far from saying that the question as between the Treasury and the Irish Government ought not to be further considered, still the course to be taken is by no means so clear as the right hon. Gentleman supposes. I am not prepared to say that, in all cases, the Attorney General for Ireland would be adequately paid at £4,000 a-year.
    MR. CHILDERS: The right hon. Gentleman opposite the Chief Secretary for Ireland has referred to a Bill, introduced in 1885, dealing very largely with the arrangements and salaries of Judges and officials in the Irish Courts of Justice. That Bill was brought in by the then Liberal Government after conference with the Irish
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    Executive, and had their entire approval. Some opposition, no doubt, was shown to the measure when it came into this House; but the reason why it did not go to a second reading was that the Government had been defeated on another question, and had resigned. It was one of the Bills on the Paper for discussion, and one which, had we succeeded in our Budget, would, together with other legislative proposals, have been pushed forward. The right hon. Gentleman has stated very excellent reasons why a large measure for amending the arrangements of the Irish Courts of Justice should be carried through Parliament. In supporting, therefore, his view that the present Bill ought to be passed at once, I do so on the distinct understanding that the acceptance of a small part of the measure of 1885 leaves the rest of the question entirely open, and that we expect to have, I do not say the identical Bill of 1885, but, a large and complete reform of the Irish Courts of Justice. With regard to the salary of the Attorney General for Ireland; having listened to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman on the subject, I would remind him that when the salary of a public officer is paid out of a Vote of this House it is settled by the Treasury and no Act of Parliament is necessary; and where the Treasury has passed a Minute to that effect with the consent of the Prime Minister or the Chancellor of the Exchequer, their decision is final. I understand the right hon. Gentleman to say not that the decision in this case should be reversed, but that the decision is not complete; but I would point out that if the circumstances have been accurately described on both sides to-night the decision is complete. Of course it can be reversed by a fresh Minute giving reasons, but this is liable to be moved for in Parliament. Probably, however, the right hon. Gentleman was not prepared for the question being raised to-night; and he will, perhaps, look into it, at the same time pardoning me for stating, with some amount of Treasury experience, what is the rule in these cases.
    MR. CHANCE: I am bound to say that I do not look upon this Bill as one of very great importance. It may, perhaps, be held to be an indication of that policy of economy which, if it had been adopted before by Her

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    Majesty's Government, might have saved them the loss of a Colleague; but, in other respects, it is distinctly objectionable. It begins by saying that certain things shall be done which may have the effect of saving about £1,500 a-year, and it leaves altogether untouched the enormous waste of public money which takes place, owing to the present remuneration of the Attorney General and Solicitor General for Ireland. In the good old times of the Crimes Act, and even while the present Crimes Act is in existence, I believe the position of the Attorney General for Ireland to have been and to be, with the single exception of that of the Lord Chancellor of England, the most lucrative position in the Government; and I am sure that if any real economy were intended by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, he would have put into the Bill a clause for reducing the salary of the Attorney General for Ireland, and abolishing the system of payment by results. I do not wish to weary the House with any discussion of the general question; but it is worthy of note that in the month of November last year the Attorney General for Ireland gave an opinion that, in certain cases intimately connected with the Plan of Campaign, it would be impossible for the Government to interfere, for the landlords were well advised that the Executive would do nothing. I trust I am not at all exceeding the limits of relevancy, although I understand that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland is a little anxious on the subject. This opinion, which cost a large sum of money, was finally repudiated; and with regard to this subject I may say that the proceedings ultimately taken in reference to the Plan of Campaign do not seem to have been relevant to the Plan of Campaign itself. I will come now to the consideration of this question of the Supreme Court of Judicature, which Court, I trust, will be very shortly reformed. Clause 2 of the Bill deals with the consolidation of certain Common Law Divisions; and, instead of boldly and openly directing an immediate consolidation of those Divisions, the clause proposes to give power to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, at any time after the passing of this Act, by Order in Council, to direct the fusion
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    and amalgamation of the Common Pleas Division with the Queen's Bench Division of the High Court; and the same with regard to the Exchequer Division after there shall occur a vacancy in the office of Chief Baron of the Exchequer. I presume I shall be in Order in referring briefly to the constitution of the Court of Queen's Bench. It is most unfortunate that three Judges of that Court are men who have been promoted from the other Divisions. I understood the theory of the law to be that when once a person became Judge he was to be above all favour; that he was to accept nothing from either Party; and that everything should be done by him impartially as between the Crown and the people. In this Division—exclusively the Criminal Division—three of the Judges have been promoted, and they have been the three who have made themselves most objectionable, not alone to the people of Ireland, but also, I must say, to professional men in Ireland. I can imagine the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland would have no burning desire now to give the Chief Baron of the Exchequer a criminal jurisdiction. The right hon. Gentleman has had a clear intimation of the manner in which that Judge would exercise his jurisdiction in certain matters which have already come before him; and, therefore, I understand perfectly that it is absurd to expect that any Member of the present Government intimately connected with the late proceedings in Ireland would not object to giving the Exchequer Division criminal jurisdiction. I do not think that any of the three Judges of the Common Pleas Division can in any way be termed a strong friend of the people, and I shall certainly move in Committee an alteration directing the immediate amalgamation of those two Common Law Divisions. I also ask the right hon. Baronet now whether he has any intention of introducing a clause which will limit the emoluments of the Attorney General and Solicitor General for Ireland to a sum more commensurate with their services? Subject to these qualifications, I do not see any reason to object to the second reading of the Bill; but, on the other hand, there is no necessity for rushing the Bill through the House. I am sure that the Consolidation Clause will not be availed of by the right hon. Gentleman in the present state of affairs;

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    and, therefore, I think it right to ask that sufficient time shall be allowed, before the Bill is taken in Committee, to enable us to consider it with a view to its amendment.
    MR. MAURICE HEALY: The Motion for the second reading of this Bill has afforded Irish Members an opportunity of offering their sincere condolence with the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland for the somewhat hard measure he has received. There has been a vacancy in the office ever since the present Government came into power, now nearly 12 months ago, and the Queen's Bench Division in Ireland has been regarded as the almost certain reward of the principal Law Officers of the Government in power. I am aware that the present Government have good reason for their action, for the Attorney General for Ireland, in the past few months, has considerably helped to increase their embarrassments. My hon. Friend the Member for South Kilkenny (Mr. Chance) has referred to the celebrated opinions obtained by the right hon. Baronet from the Attorney General for Ireland, and we well remember the feeling in Ireland when it was known that the Plan of Campaign had received the legal endorsement of that right hon. and learned Gentleman. We say now that his opinion has considerably added to the difficulties of the Government in Ireland, and no doubt, also, to the embarrassment of the situation there; but sitting on these Benches, and having the circumstances of the case before us, I think it is only proper for us to say that we think it a somewhat severe mode of censure for the Government to adopt the course of depriving the right hon. and learned Gentleman of an important and distinguished office, which I think the whole of his Colleagues and the Irish Bar generally believed was almost certain to fall upon him. With regard to the principle of the Bill I have no complaint to make; but I say that the Bill itself does not go far enough. The proposal, so far as it goes, is one which I think will be received with approval by everyone in Ireland. Everyone who is conversant with the Irish judicial system knows that, in the first place, the work of a Judge in Ireland is not sufficient to keep him engaged during a fourth part of the year; and. in the next place, although the Irish Judges
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    have probably less to do than any other officials in this country or in Ireland, the work they do get through is, perhaps, worse done than that under any political system in Europe. It is well known that although the Common Law Divisions of the High Court of Justice, during many months of the year, rise after a few hours' work, cases of importance are postponed from month to month, and I may say from year to year, in consequence of the judicial system, which does not permit the Common Law Courts to be fully constituted for more than a few weeks during each sitting. I approve the provisions of this Bill, therefore, so far as it tends to consolidate the Common Law Divisions; but I say that when these Divisions have been consolidated in the manner proposed, the amount of work which the Judges have to do will place three-fourths of them in the possession of sinecures—that is to say, they will be practically idle. Under the present system they enjoy offices of emolument and dignity; they are highly paid for the discharge of their offices; and they are left, to all intents and purposes, with nothing to do. Under the new system the work will be divided, and they will have still less to do; and, therefore, I say that the proper complement of this Bill would be to cut down the Judicial Bench in Ireland to one-half of its present strength, and it would then be quite strong enough to get through all its work. Unless this is done, we think the measure of the Government will be inadequate; whereas, if they make proper proposals in the direction indicated, they will be received with favour by the Irish people. There is one other subject to which I desire to refer before closing my remarks, and I now refer to the effect of making the Irish Judges Privy Councillors. We are aware that, under the present arrangement, they are both Privy Councillors and Judges; the effect of which is that on one day in the Privy Council they may direct the initiation of a prosecution, and on the next sit in Court to try the individual directed to be prosecuted. I have only referred to this subject for the purpose of asking the Government whether they will use the opportunity which this Bill gives them for remedying this evil state of affairs by providing that the Irish Privy Coun-

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    cillors shall be Privy Councillors, and the Irish Judges, Judges only?
    SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Sir, I am very glad there is to be a commencement made in the direction of economy in the Irish judiciary. On this side of the House we shall give it every support. I only hope this is a small beginning of reform which is extremely wanted. It is perfectly true, as stated by the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down (Mr. Maurice Healy), that the staff of the Irish judicial establishment is enormously beyond the work it has to do; and I believe that the salaries of the Irish Judges are enormously high, considering the relations they bear to the incomes of the Bar. We have had very useful lessons on economy read to us from those Benches, and I hope they will be applied, and that without distinction of Party, to this question of the Irish judicial establishment. I know—and I venture to say the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks - Beach) knows very well—the strength of the legal trades-union in Dublin. It is one under which successive Irish Governments have suffered. Its members are the masters of the Castle, and until that is thoroughly understood we shall get no sound and good reform, either in the judiciary or in some other matters. If anybody will only take the trouble of summing up the amount which is spent upon the limited numbers of those who constitute the Irish Bar, he would find that the emoluments in which they must necessarily share would make the mouth of the Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Henry Matthews) water, either in his present or in his former profession. Now, a Committee was appointed by the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington (Lord Randolph Churchill), when he was an economical Member of the present Administration, to look into the abuses in, and the unnecessary waste upon, the Public Service; and I venture to say that the richest of all the fields which will be found in the form of abuses will be found in the Irish legal establishment. Assuring the Government of every possible support in the commencement of a reform of this character, I would like to ask the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson), with reference to
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    what has passed between my right hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton (Mr. Henry Fowler) and the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, whether he will lay upon the Table of the House the Minute of the Treasury on the subject of the salary of the Irish Attorney General? I was not in the House when the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) spoke; but I understand he advanced the rather singular argument that the Irish Government had not accepted the decision of the Treasury. [Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: The late Irish Government.] Now, if every Department was at liberty to say it did not accept the decision of the Treasury, you would have uncommonly little control over the Expenditure of the country. I am sure I should have been very glad, when I was at the Home Office, if I could have refused to accept the decision of the Treasury with regard to the salaries of that Department. To say that the Irish Government never accepted the decision of the Treasury, is opening up a vista of unlimited extravagance such as I never heard of. I do not wonder at the resignation of the noble Lord the Member for South Paddington, if this doctrine is to be laid down by a Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant who was once Chancellor of the Exchequer.
    SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: What I meant to convey was this—that the question was not settled. According to the best of my recollection, the Question was the subject of correspondence between the two Departments: the Treasury took one view, and the Irish Government another. When we came into Office, we found the Attorney General vacating Office receiving the salary which the Irish Government thought he ought to receive.
    SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: My memory is quite clear on the subject. The right hon. Gentleman says that the final Minute of the Treasury has not been made on the subject. No doubt, if the final decision of the Treasury has not been given, the position of the right hon. Gentleman is quite correct; but if there was a final Minute of the Treasury on the subject, it was, of course, decisive. All I wish to ask the Secretary to the Treasury is, as I said before, whether he will lay upon the Table of

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    the House the Minute of the Treasury? There could not be a Minute of the Treasury until the correspondence was finished. If my right hon. Friend the Member for East Wolverhampton is correct, there was a Minute of the Treasury on the subject; and I wish to know whether the hon. Gentleman will lay that Minute on the Table?
    THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASURY (Mr. JACKSON): If I can ascertain clearly what it is the right hon. Gentleman (Sir William Harcourt) wants, I shall be very glad to comply with his request. My own recollection of the circumstances rather leads me to the conclusion that to say there was a Minute passed, would not convey a correct description to the House. I think my right hon. Friend (Mr. Henry H. Fowler) will remember that the Question was the subject of correspondence between the Treasury and the Irish Government; and I believe my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) was quite right in saying that, in the end, the salary was maintained at the same rate; the Irish Government, I will not say declining, but being unable to accept the view of the Treasury. I believe there is also a letter from the Treasury, in which they express the opinion that the view of the Treasury must be taken to be final; but I will look into the matter, and I shall be very happy to do what I can to meet the wishes of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir William Harcourt.)
    MR. ILLINGWORTH: I would really recommend the Government to enter as soon as possible upon economical courses, for we all know that the longer Governments remain in Office the more extravagant their expenditure becomes. While the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Jackson) is in this communicative mood, I would suggest that a Return be given to the House of the fees which have been paid to the Irish Attorney General. In almost every other public Department there is a possibility of knowing what the charges are; but in regard to the Legal Offices of the Crown there is always a great deal of mystification. In past times no one has known what Bench officials have got; but at last we have
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    reached the richest preserves of extravagance, and I sincerely hope that before this Bill passes through Committee we shall be informed what the salaries and emoluments of the Offices of the Irish Attorney General and the Irish Solicitor General are really worth. It is not alone the money question I look at; but my impression is that the high emoluments given to the Irish officials have been intended as bribes.
    MR. SPEAKER: I must call the attention of the House to the fact that there is no mention in the Bill of the Office of the Attorney General for Ireland. Therefore, it is not permissible to continue a discussion which is not relevant to the principle of the Bill.
    MR. M. J. KENNY: Mr. Speaker, I think that this Bill, as far as it goes, will commend itself to every Member of the House, with the exception of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the junior Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Holmes). This Bill cannot be altogether satisfactory to him, and, at the same time, we have a right to maintain that it is hardly satisfactory to our Party, because it does not go far enough. It will effect a saving of £800 a-year in the Irish Estimates; but, as a matter of fact, when there is an amendment of the Judicature Act, we have a right to expect that the reform should be of a thorough character, especially as the present Government came into Office with the profession of economy on their lips, which, somehow or other, they do not seem anxious to fulfil. There are many Judges in Ireland who practically have no functions to discharge, while they receive large salaries—as large salaries as those paid to Judges in England. The Lord Chancellor of Ireland receives £8,000 a-year for doing very little; one Judge receives £5,000 a-year, and the lowest salary paid—that to the Puisne Judges—is £3,800 a-year. Everybody knows that these sums represent in Ireland twice as much as they do in England; and every person knows, also, that English barristers accepting seats on the Bench do so at a pecuniary sacrifice. When barristers in England are promoted to the Bench, it almost invariably happens that they have been making by private practice considerably greater annual incomes than they will receive as Puisne Judges. As Judges

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    they receive £5,000 a-year, or considerably less than they have made, as a rule, in following their profession at the Bar. In Ireland, however, the case is exactly the reverse. I venture to say there is not a single barrister in Ireland who is, at the present time, making £3,000 a-year; while in England there are men at the Bar making £15,000 a-year—£3,000 a-year would be an enormous salary in Ireland. I believe £1,500 a-year is regarded in the Four Courts as quite a princely salary; and the result is that the high salaries paid to Judges are nothing more than bribes to Members of the Bar for their political services; such has always been regarded as the case in Ireland. That the Lord Chancellor should get £8,000 a-year is a relic of the corruption of the Union. It is one of the many legal abuses which exist at the present time, and is a matter of disgrace and discredit to the Irish Executive. The Supreme Court of Ireland could be cut down to less than half its present numbers, and, at the same time, the legal work of Ireland could be satisfactorily performed. I was recently speaking to an Australian lawyer, and he told me the Judges in Australia have worked as long as 12 and 14 hours a-day. That, of course, is excessive; but there are Judges in Ireland who will not work two hours a-day, and yet for such services they receive from £3,800 to £5,000 a-year. I maintain that that is a scandal; and I say that if the Government wish to set an example of economy, there is no more suitable field to start upon than that of the judiciary in Ireland. I should be in favour of the Government appointing no other Judges in Ireland until the present number has been reduced to one-half what it is, and then I should be in favour of cutting the salaries of the Judges down to about one-half. There is not a Judge in Ireland who is worth more than £2,000 a-year. Considering the condition of Ireland and the class of lawyers in the country, £2,000 a-year would be equal to the deserts of any of the Irish lawyers. If the Government intend to adopt a policy of retrenchment in this particular direction, I think I may safely assure them of every support from the quarter of the House in which I sit.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Motion made and Question proposed, "That the Bill be committed for Tomorrow."—(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach.)
    MR. CHANCE: As an Amendment, I move that the Bill be committed for this day fortnight. The Bill will have to be considerably altered. Its title is a wide one, and a great many subjects would be relevant to it. I appeal to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary to give me at least a fortnight to consider the Bill. There is no urgent necessity to press it on. The Queen's Bench Division will now, of course, have a great deal of work to do in reference to the criminal prosecutions pending; and as to the civil work of the country, I assure the right hon. Gentleman there is no pressure. There may be a few cases to be tried by jury, but they can be taken before one Judge. There is no urgent necessity for the sitting of Judges as a Divisional Court.
    Amendment proposed, to leave out "To-morrow," and insert "this day fortnight."—(Mr. Chance.)
    SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: That is the most extraordinary statement I ever heard in this House. [Mr. CHANCE: It is nevertheless true.] I said, in introducing this Bill, that if it was delayed either on the ground of objection or in regard to its scope—if there was any attempt to tack to it other reforms—it would be impossible for the Government to proceed with it, and that we should be compelled, much against our will, to fill up the vacant office. We ask the House to take this little step in judicial reform; but if hon. Members treat the Bill in the manner which the hon. Member (Mr. Chance) has just suggested, our object of economy will be defeated, and they will have defeated it. I am quite willing to postpone the Committee stage until Thursday; but I decline to postpone it longer. This is a small measure. As I said last week, it is a measure which, as far as it goes, everyone agrees with. It is a measure which, if it is to be passed at all, it is essential should be passed at once.
    MR. CHANCE: With the permission of the House I will withdraw my Amendment.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Original Motion withdrawn.
    Bill committed for Thursday,

MOTIONS
  BALLOT ACT (1872) AMENDMENT BILL.

    MOTION FOR LEAVE. FIRST READING.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend 'The Ballot Act, 1872.'"—(Colonel Saunderson.)
    MR. SEXTON: What is the object of the Bill? [A pause.] Unless the hon. and gallant Gentleman has the courtesy to explain the object of the measure, I shall be obliged to move the adjournment of the debate.
    COLONEL SAUNDERSON: I have no objection to state the principle of the Bill. The Bill is intended to alter the Ballot Act, so as to prevent what sometimes now occurs at Elections—that is, voters being brought up to the poll and declared to be illiterate, although they are perfectly capable of reading the names of the candidates on the ballot paper; in order that pressure may be brought to bear upon them by those who know them and are in a position to influence them in the votes they give. I had intended that the Bill should apply to Ireland only; but I believe it may, with advantage, apply to the United Kingdom at large. I cannot speak from personal knowledge as to England and Scotland, but I can speak with such knowledge of Ireland. Being aware, as I am, that in Ireland voters are brought up to the poll who are perfectly competent to decide as to the vote they give, and yet are caused to declare themselves illiterate, so that others may discover how they vote, I have felt it necessary, in order to carry out the purpose of the Ballot Act, which is to enable a voter to record his vote without fear of any undue influence, to bring in this Bill. Unless some Bill of this kind is brought in and carried, elections, in Ireland certainly, will never be conducted in accordance with the principle which I believe this House wishes to enforce, and that is that a man shall give his vote free from any outside influence and control.
    MR. CONYBEARE: I should imagine it would be perfectly competent to put down the practices which the hon. and gallant Gentleman opposite has described by means of the Corrupt Practices Act.
    MR. SEXTON: I shall not oppose the introduction of the Bill; but I shall be bound to do so on the second reading.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Bill ordered to be brought in by Colonel Saunderson, Colonel Waring, and Mr. Macartney.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 138.]

  DRAINAGE AND IMPROVEMENT OF LANDS

    (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDER BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Jackson, Bill to confirm a Provisional Order, under "The Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Act, 1863," and the Acts amending the same, relating to the Follistown Drainage District in the County of Meath, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Jackson and Sir Michael Hicks-Beach.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 127.]

    PARLIAMENTARY FRANCHISE (EXTENSION TO WOMEN) BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Woodall, Bill to extend the Parliamentary Franchise to duly qualified Women, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Woodall, Mr. Houldsworth, Mr. Illingworth, Mr. M'Laren, Sir Robert Fowler, Mr. Howorth, Mr. Maclure, and Mr. Stansfeld.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 128.]

    BOROUGH FUNDS BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Woodall, Bill to amend an Act of the 35th and 36th years of Her Majesty's reign, chapter ninety-one, intituled "An Act to authorise the application of Funds of Municipal Corporations and other governing bodies in certain cases," ordered to be brought in by Mr. Woodall, Mr. Kenrick, Mr. Picton, Mr. Howard Vincent, and Mr. Woodhead.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 129.]

    COAL MINES, &C., REGULATION BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Secretary Matthews, Bill to consolidate, with amendments, the Coal Mines Acts, 1872 and 1886, and "The Stratified Ironstone Mines (Gunpowder) Act, 1881," ordered to be brought in by Mr. Secretary Matthews and Mr. Stuart-Wortley.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 130.]

    CRIMINAL LAW (SCOTLAND) PROCEDURE BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Secretary Matthews, Bill to simplify and amend Procedure in the Superior Criminal Law Courts of Scotland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Secretary Matthews, Mr. Secretary Balfour, The Lord Advocate, and the Solicitor General for Scotland.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 131.]

    FIRST OFFENDERS BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Howard Vincent, Bill to permit the conditional release of First Offenders in certain cases, ordered to be brought in by

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    Mr. Howard Vincent, Lord Randolph Spencer Churchill, Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson, Mr. Hoare, Mr. Addison, Mr. Hastings, Mr. Law-son, and Mr. Molloy.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 132.]

    AGRICULTURAL TENANTS RELIEF BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Seale-Hayne, Bill for the relief of Agricultural Tenants, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Seale-Hayne and Sir Bernhard Samuelson.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 133.]

    DEACONS (CHURCH OF ENGLAND) BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Gedge, Bill to amend the Acts 41 Geo. 3. c. 63, and 1 and 2 Vic. c. 106, so far as they relate to Deacons of the Church of England, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Gedge, Viscount Folkestone, Mr. Hoare, and Mr. MacInnes.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 134.]

    HYDE PARK CORNER (NEW STREETS) BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. David Plunket, Bill to provide for the maintenance of the New Streets at Hyde Park Corner, ordered to be brought in by Mr. David Plunket and Mr. Jackson.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 135.]

    PUBLIC PARKS AND WORKS (METROPOLIS) BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. David Plunket, Bill for the transfer to the Metropolitan Board of Works and the maintenance of certain Public Parks and Works in the Metropolis, ordered to be brought in by Mr. David Plunket and Mr. Jackson.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 136.]

    LODGERS' GOODS PROTECTION ACT (1871) AMENDMENT BILL.
    On Motion of Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson, Bill to amend "The Lodgers' Goods Protection Act, 1871," ordered to be brought in by Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson, Mr. Howard Vincent, and Mr. Gent-Davis.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 137.]

    PUBLIC PETITIONS.
    Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed, to whom shall be referred all Petitions presented to the House, with the exception of such as relate to Private Bills; and that such Committee do classify and prepare abstracts of the same, in such form and manner as shall appear to them best suited to convey to the House all requisite information respecting their contents, and do report the same from time to time to the House; and that the reports of the Committee do set forth the number of signatures to each Petition only in respect to those signatures to which addresses are affixed:—And that such Committee have power to direct the printing in ex extenso of such Petitions, or of such parts of Petitions, as shall appear to require it:—And that such Committee have power to report their opinion and observations thereupon to the House.
    The Committee was accordingly nominated of,—Sir CHARLES FORSTER, Mr. WILLIAM LOWTHER, Mr. CAVENDISH BENTINCK, Mr. HUGH ELLIOT, Colonel BRIDGEMAN, Mr. DONALD CRAWFORD, Mr. MULHOLLAND, Viscount LYMINGTON, Mr. WIGGIN, Mr. M'LAGAN, Mr. MORGAN HOWARD, Mr. HENRY TOLLUMACHE, Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR, and Mr. JAMES A. CAMPBELL.
    Ordered, That Three be the quorum.—(Sir Charles Forster.)

    PRINTING.
    Ordered, That a Select Committee be appointed to assist Mr. Speaker in all matters which relate to the Printing executed by Order of this House, and for the purpose of selecting and arranging for Printing, Returns and Papers presented in pursuance of Motions made by Members of this House:—The Committee was accordingly nominated of,—Sir JOSEPH PHASE, Mr. STANSFELD, Mr. RAIKES, Mr. WHITBREAD, Sir GEORGE RUSSELL, Mr. PARNELL, Colonel TOTTENHAM, Mr. SEXTON, Mr. HENRY H. FOWLER, and Mr. JACKSON.
    Ordered, That three be the quorum.—(Mr. Akers-Douglas.)

    KITCHEN AND REFRESHMENT ROOMS (HOUSE OF COMMONS).
    Ordered, That a Committee be appointed to control the arrangements of the Kitchen and Refreshment Rooms in the department of the Serjeant at Arms attending this House:—The Committee was accordingly nominated of,—Mr. A. H. ACLAND, Mr. AGG - GARDNER, Mr. BIGGAR, Mr. WILLIAM CORBET, Baron DIMSDALE, Mr. FENWICK, Mr. FLOWER, General GOLDSWORTHY, Colonel HAMBRO, Mr. HERBERT, Viscount LEWISHAM, Mr. MARJORIBANKS, Baron DE ROTHSCHILD, Mr. SHEIL, and Mr. YERBURGH.
    Ordered, That Five be the quorum.—(Mr. Akers-Douglas.)

    SALE OF INTOXICATING LIQUORS ON SUNDAY (CORNWALL) BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Conybeare, Bill to prohibit the Sale of Intoxicating Liquors on Sundays in the county of Cornwall, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Conybeare, Mr. Borlase, Sir John St. Aubyn, Mr. C. T. Dyke Acland, Mr. Bickford-Smith, and Mr. Courtney.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 139.]

    MINERS' WAGES PAYMENT BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Conybeare, Bill to amend the Law relating to the payment of Wages of Miners, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Conybeare, Mr. Mason, Mr. Borlase, and Mr. Clancy.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 140.]

    WATER COMPANIES (REGULATION OF POWERS) BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Fulton, Bill to limit the powers of the Water Companies to cut off the tenants' water supply where the rate is paid by the landlord, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Fulton, Captain Colomb, and Mr. C. R. Spencer.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 141.]

    MERCHANDISE MARKS ACT (1862) AMENDMENT BILL.
    Considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    Resolved, That the Chairman be directed to move the House, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend "The Merchandise Marks Act, 1862."
    Resolution reported:—Bill ordered to be brought in by Baron Henry De Worms and Mr. Attorney General.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 142.]

    ROD FISHING (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Laing Brown, Bill to amend the Law relating to Rod Fishing in Scotland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Laing Brown, Mr. Hunter, Mr. Wallace, Mr. Donald Crawford, and Mr. Angus Sutherland.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 143.]

    SITES FOR CHURCHES, &C. (IRELAND) BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Byrne, Bill to facilitate the acquiring of Sites for Churches and Schools, and for Residences for Clergymen and School Teachers in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Byrne, Mr. Macdonald, Mr. Sheehy, Mr. Jordan, and Colonel Nolan.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 144.]

    SANITATION OF HOUSES (METROPOLIS) BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. Dixon-Hartland, Bill for better Sanitation of Houses in the Metropolis, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Dixon-Hartland and Mr. Tomlinson.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 145.]
    House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Lunacy Acts Amendment* (7); Lunacy* (8); Cathedral Churches* (9); Electric Lighting Act (1882) Amendment* (10).
Second Reading—Christchurch (Southampton) Charter (Correction of Error)* (4); Women's Suffrage* (5), negatived.

PRIVILEGE—"THE QUEEN v. LORD GRAVES."

  OBSERVATIONS. QUESTION.
  LORD RIBBLESDALErose to call attention to the case of "The Queen v. Lord Graves," a trial recently held in the Court of Queen's Bench before the Lord Chief Justice. Lord Graves was put upon his trial, on the 19th of January, with another person, upon two indictments for felony, and one for misdemeanour against the defendant Lord Graves himself. As their Lordships were aware, a Peer charged with felony must be tried by his Peers. The misdemeanour in this case ended in an acquittal, and the learned counsel representing Lord Graves objected to his being tried for felony except by his Peers, and left the Court; but, in his absence, there being a desire
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  that the felony indictments should be taken, a conversation arose as to the jurisdiction of the Court over him in the remaining cases, and something was said about a Peer being tried by his Peers, in the course of which the Lord Chief Justice stated in effect that there was no doubt in his mind that, provided Lord Graves was willing to waive his Privilege as a Peer, he could be tried by a common or special jury, and he cited the case of Lord Ferrers in support of his view, and as an illustration of the difficulty in the matter. As to the illustration of the difficulty in the case, so far from Lord Ferrers being tried by a common jury, he (Lord Ribblesdale) believed that a Commoner was raised to the Peerage to preside at the trial of Lord Ferrers by his Peers. That, of course, therefore, was a slip of memory on the part of the Lord Chief Justice. On hearing that, Lord Graves at once said he was prepared to waive his Privilege as a Peer, and he accordingly did so, and a verdict of "not guilty" was taken. He (Lord Ribblesdale) brought the question forward as a question of Privilege, because the matter placed their Lordships in this dilemma—that if a Peer could not waive his Privilege, then the action of the Queen against Lord Graves was from beginning to end a solemn informality. If he could waive his Privilege, it was certainly only since that trial; it never had been so ruled before the Lord Chief Justice's dictum. He would leave it to their Lordships to consider whether a precedent, evidently based on an error of memory, was a desirable precedent, or one of an authoritative kind. He wanted to know whether a Peer could waive that Privilege? It was not a personal Privilege, but it was a Privilege that belonged to the ancient constitution of the House of Lords; and his contention was that it was not in the power of a Peer to waive it, in the same way as he might do in the matter of precedence, say, in going down to dinner, or similar matters of that kind. All authority was against the Lord Chief Justice's view of the case. Before the trial of Lord Dacre he believed the 14 Puisne Judges of England met in solemn conclave, so as to be able to put on record their unanimous decision whether a Peer could waive his Privilege, and their opinion was that a Peer indicted for felony must be tried by a jury of his

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  Peers, and by no other jury. He did not care about the Privilege as an individual Member of their Lordships' House. It was, no doubt, a melancholy Privilege at best; but it was a matter of some importance affecting their Lordships' House as a constituted body. He believed, speaking of course under correction, that Lord Graves's waiver of Privilege was informal and impossible under the appointed constitution of the House of Lords; and under the circumstances, and with a view of getting the matter set at rest and that informality placed on record, he now asked the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, Whether a Peer indicted for felony is competent to waive the Privilege of being tried by his Peers? It did not belong to an individual simply as such, and he thought the subject should be set at rest by the highest authority.
  LORD COLERIDGE (LORD CHIEF JUSTICE of ENGLAND),in reply, said, that, by the courtesy of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack (Lord Halsbury), he was allowed to say a few words to their Lordships before his noble and learned Friend answered the Question. It was right that their Lordships should know exactly how the facts stood; and how it was that the opinion, from which he certainly did not shrink, came to be given by him. Lord Graves and a gentleman named Keymer were indicted at the Central Criminal Court, and true bills were found against them in three cases; in one case for conspiring together in order to obtain money by false representations, and in two other cases for the forgery, in fact, of a large number of shares in the company called Lewthwaite and Co. Those indictments, having been duly found at the Old Bailey, were moved by certiorari into the Court of Queen's Bench, to be tried there by a jury, because it was supposed that questions of law might arise. The indictments came on before him without any notice, and without his having any idea that any question, either Constitutional or otherwise, could be raised on the trial of them. Before the indictments came on, the learned counsel who represented the prosecution, as well as those who represented the defendants, informed him that, if he saw no objection, it was desired that the prosecution should come to an end for want of evidence; and the prosecuting counsel, a very eminent and honourable man, in-
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  structed by a solicitor of the highest possible character, was satisfied by the evidence shown him in the briefs of Sir Henry James and his learned friend that it was useless to continue the prosecution, and that it would be a mere waste of time to go on with the trial, which could have only one result, and that a result favourable to the defendants. The matter was fully discussed before him, and it was necessary that his sanction should be given to the withdrawal of the prosecution; because the one case being misdemeanour and the two others being felonies, anything like withdrawal from a prosecution of that sort, especially in the case of a man of high social rank, if it were not sanctioned by the Judge, after inquiry by him, would be open to just and grave censure. It might be said that a very different measure of justice was meted out to defendants, according to whether or not they were of high rank in society. He, therefore, satisfied himself that he was fully entitled to trust the statements made by the learned counsel on both sides, and he gave his entire sanction to the withdrawal of the prosecution. He was not, at the time, aware of the form of the indictments, but only of the substance of the charges. The charge of misdemeanour was brought on, and resulted in the counsel stating in public what they had stated to him in private, and a verdict of acquittal being taken. Then arose the question of the two felonies, and Mr. Keymer, who was indicted jointly with Lord Graves, was anxious to get rid of the whole matter. Something was said about the difficulty connected with Lord Graves's Privilege as a Peer; and he (Lord Coleridge) said he saw no objection, if Lord Graves waived his Privilege, to the case being tried by a special jury. Lord Graves was present in person, and, addressing him (Lord Coleridge), stated that he desired to waive any Privilege he might possess, and that the trial might proceed. It was therefore agreed that the jury should be sworn, and they pronounced a verdict of "not guilty." He was also informed that it was immaterial whether Lord Graves really could or could not waive his Privilege; because, a communication of all the circumstances having been made to the Attorney General, the Attorney General undertook to do what he had a perfect right to do—namely, enter a nolle prose-

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  qui, and put an end to all questions in the matter. His (Lord Coleridge's) ruling, therefore, was, in fact, immaterial. He did not shrink from any censure, if it was due; but his ruling was absolutely immaterial, because the action of the Attorney General put an end to the case, whether he liked it or not, and whether the defendants liked it or not. Under these circumstances, he had said he was of opinion that the Privilege of Peerage might be waived by the person possessing it; that if he chose to throw himself on the country, and to be tried by the ordinary tribunal, he could do so; that it was a Privilege which belonged to Lord Graves, who could waive it if he liked, and if he desired the trial to proceed. It was proper to mention that the Peerage of Lord Graves was not stated in the indictment, for he was indicted as "commonly called Lord Graves," and had pleaded to an indictment so describing him; and he (Lord Coleridge) did not well see, as Lord Graves's Peerage was not stated as a fact, and as Lord Graves had pleaded to an indictment so describing him, how he (Lord Coleridge) could possibly avoid trying him. Those were the facts, and, under those circumstances, he had given the opinion which the noble Lord (Lord Ribblesdale) now challenged. He had justified it by a case as to which he admitted at once that he had made a mistake—the case of Lord Ferrers. As to Lord Ferrers he had been in error. Foster's Crown Law and the histories of the time ought to have been remembered by him. He frankly admitted that the case which occurred to him at the time, and on which he rested for justifying him in what he was doing, did not justify him at all. He had made a mistake, and there was an end of it so far as he was concerned. The question now arose, seeing that the case of Lord Ferrers did not support it, whether the opinion he gave on that occasion was, or was not, right in itself? Upon that point the statement of authorities was very curious. He did not say that the matter was clear; but he did say that there was a great deal more in favour of his view than he had certainly been aware of. He thought their Lordships would admit that there was a good deal to be said for the position that a Peer, when he liked, might waive his Privilege. Now, the matter
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  stood in this way. In the first place, this was a Privilege which most undoubtedly did not exist, except in cases of treason or felony, and in cases of misprision of either. Not only was that laid down in books of authority, but a very moderate acquaintance with celebrated cases in modern times would show that the thing had been done; and Peers had been repeatedly tried by juries in cases which were not treason or felony, nor misprision of either. He might mention a good many cases; but he would content himself by citing the case of Lord Thanet, a very famous case tried before Lord Kenyon in 1798, in which Lord Thanet was defended by Lord Erskine. In more recent times there was the case of Lord Dunboyne, who was tried before Lord Campbell for misdemeanour in 1850. There were other cases, showing that there was no question that the Privilege—if it be a Privilege—applied to cases only of felony or treason, or misprision of either. It was so laid down in the books of authority; in any other class of offence a Peer must be tried by the jury, in the Court in which the indictment was found. So said Blackstone, Lord Coke, and others. In Hawkins's Pleas of the Crown, a book of great authority, it was said—
  "I take it to be agreed that he has a right to be tried by his Peers upon an indictment of treason or felony, whether made such by the common law or by statute, and also upon an indictment for misprision of treason or felony; but it seems that regularly he is to be tried by the country for all other crimes out of Parliament."
  The question is also stated in this way further on in the same book—
  "It hath been adjudged that if a Peer, on an arraignment before the Lords, refuse to put himself upon his Peers, he shall be dealt with as one who stands mute; for it is as much the law of the land that a Peer be tried by his Peers as a Commoner by Commoners. Yet there is said to be a record in 4 Edward III. that Lord Berkeley put himself on his country, and was tried by a jury. Yet if one who has a title to Peerage be indicted or arraigned as a Commoner and plead not guilty, and put himself upon his country, it hath been adjudged that he cannot afterwards suggest that he is a Peer and pray a trial by his Peers."
  It seemed to him to be clear, therefore, that it was only in the cases he had referred to that the argument applied; and it seemed to be allowed that if a Peer was indicted and put himself on

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  the country, and afterwards claimed to be tried as a Peer, that then the case would be disallowed and it would be tried by the country. It was also curious to see on what ground the Privilege of Peerage and the impossibility of waiving it stood. As far as dicta were concerned, it stood, no doubt, on the highest authority. It would be found laid down by Lord Coke, and in a case reported by Lord Chief Justice Keeling. It was also curious to observe on what Lord Coke founded his dictum. He placed it on the words of Magna Charta, that no freeman should be imprisoned, and then went on—
  "This is to be understood of the King's sute, for the words be nec super eum ibimus. nec super eum mittemus nisi per legale judicium parium suorum vel per legem terra."
  Lord Coke, therefore, put it on the venerable Magna Charta, and on the ground that the King having undertaken not to prosecute, not to issue process, except per legale judicium parium suorum, it was a Privilege inherent in a Peer and could not be waived. But, speaking with the greatest deference of Lord Coke's authority, he (Lord Coleridge) did not say that he was wrong; but he did not explain how it was that the doctrine had no application to misdemeanour. The King was just as much a necessary party to a suit of misdemeanour as he was to a suit for treason or felony; and if it be true that the words of Magna Charta were the reason why a Peer must be tried by the Peers, because it was at the suit of the King, he asked how it was to be accounted for that during the earliest times, so far as he knew, the trials of Peers for misdemeanour had always been by the ordinary tribunals of the country, and not by the House of Lords? There was also the case of Lord Dacre, which was referred to by the noble Lord, and which was to be found in the reports of Lord Chief Justice Keeling. But it was a curious thing to see how that matter really stood. It was not a report of Lord Chief Justice Keeling's at all, who was Chief Justice in the time of Charles II. It was the report of a Judge, no doubt an excellent man, in the time of Henry VIII., and one of the Judges who sat on the trial of Sir Thomas More and Cardinal Fisher. Lord Dacre was tried, apparently in the time of Henry VIII., for being too friendly with the Scotch, who were at
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  that time the King's enemies. It was true that the Judges were summoned for the trial of Lord Dacre; and, among other things, the Judges appear to have said that a Peer could not waive his Privilege. That was also true; but when they came to look at the authority which was cited, it was found that there was no judicial determination, and the decision had not the authority of Lord Chief Justice Keeling. The case of Lord Dorset, on the other hand, was the authority of a decided case, because, in that case, Lord Dorset had been indicted as a Commoner. He claimed that he was a Peer; but it was determined that, having once been indicted as a Commoner, he could not urge his Privilege as a Peer and must be tried by the country. There was also an interesting circumstance in this case. Lord Graves was not a Member of their Lordships' House. He was a Peer of Ireland; and, undoubtedly, upon unquestioned authority, if the case had happened before the Union, Lord Graves, for any offence committed in England, must have been tried by the country. The rule was the same as to Scottish Peers before the Union with Scotland, at the time of Queen Anne. A Peer of Scotland, if accused of any offence in this country, could not claim the Privilege of a Peer, but would have to be tried by the country, as was distinctly held in Lord Sanquhar's, a case reported by Lord Coke. By the last paragraph of the 4th Article of the Act of Union with Ireland there were expressions which seemed to say that all Privileges of trial of Peers of Ireland would henceforth be the same as in the case of Peers of the United Kingdom; but it appeared to be a curious thing to hold that, whereas, before 1800, if a Peer of Ireland had been guilty of offence in this country, he certainly would be tried by a jury, yet that since the Union such a person, although not a Member of the House of Lords, and having a right to sit in Parliament only under certain circumstances or by representation, should have a right to be tried by their Lordships' House. These were the authorities—and he had taken some trouble about the matter—which he had thought it right to bring before their Lordships. It struck him that there was much to be said for the view that this Privilege of the Peerage was

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  a Privilege which a noble Lord might waive if he thought fit. So far as his present opinion went, he should think a Peer might do so; for the reasons given for the view that a Peer could not appeared to him as, if sound, it would carry the case of misdemeanours, to which, nevertheless, the Privilege in question had never, from the earliest times of our history, ever been applied. Whether the Privilege was one which, in the present day, it was advisable to maintain was a question on which he did not presume to offer an opinion to their Lordships. It was enough for him to say that he was by no means satisfied that he was wrong in the opinion which he gave, although he admitted that there were strong dicta against it, and that it was given without very much consideration, because of the reason which he had assigned to their Lordships—namely, that it was wholly immaterial in the particular case before him; and having said this much, and having thanked their Lordships for the attention which they had given to him, he now left the matter in their Lordships' hands.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said, that, owing to the accident of the position which he had the honour to hold, he was called upon to pronounce what came to be a dogmatic opinion, which he regretted was not in harmony with what his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice had just laid down. He thought it could hardly be doubted that, in every text-book, it was accepted as a fact that a Peer must be tried by his Peers for a felony, and by no one else. That had been the current of authorities broadly stated. He was aware of the phrase used in the new text-book of authority which his noble and learned Friend had referred to; but his noble and learned Friend's memory was playing him false in regard to the quotation in question from Hawkins. The language there was guarded; it did not say "a person who is a Peer," but "a person who has a title to the Peerage;" and it might well be thought that the learned writer had very accurately in his view the case referred to in the margin. Such was the point in the case quoted as the Marquess of Dorset's case. So far as one could judge from the report of that
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  case, what happened was that, after the trial, the accused claimed, not that he was a Peer and had established his right to a Peerage, but that he was the person in whom the title to the Peerage was, and that, therefore, he was entitled to be tried by his Peers. So much for the authority of that case. He could not in any way concur with his noble and learned Friend as to the authority of Lord Dacre's case. He was indicted on a charge of high treason; the question was raised whether a Peer could waive his Privilege, and the Judges solemnly decided that he could not. The noble and learned Lord had argued that this rule never applied to misdemeanours; but he had not, he (Lord Halsbury) submitted, given sufficient value to the arguments of the learned Judges with reference to the chapter from Magna Charta which he had construed. It was quite true that the Privilege was applicable only to treason and to treason-felony; and, under the circumstances, it appeared to him that the learned Judges had placed on that chapter a just and proper construction. Speaking always with the deference due to the knowledge and experience of his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice of England, he was compelled, in answer to him, to say that, according to the best judgment he had been able to form, a Peer was not competent to waive his right to be tried by his Peers, because it was not in the proper sense a Privilege at all, and the difficulty had arisen from the misuse of the word. It was called a Privilege, but that was a misnomer. If the reasoning of the Judges was right, the ground on which it rested was that the Statute—and that was what the Judges said in Lord Dacre's case—prohibited the Crown from proceeding against the Peer except by judgment of his Peers; and if it was a statutable prohibition, he need not tell their Lordships that that was a matter which they could not waive, because it was simply a question of law.
  LORD FITZGERALDsaid, he should hesitate very much before he adopted the view of the case that had been put forward by the noble and learned Lord the Chief Justice. For himself, he thought that this question of trial by Peers was not one of Privilege, but rather of jurisdiction. Magna Charta,

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  was a declaration of the previous law of England, and it contained negative words to the effect that a Peer was only to be tried by his Peers—namely—
  "Nullus liber homo capiatur, &c.†nisi per legale judicium parium suorum vel per legem terræ."
  It was also laid down that—
  "An Earl or Baron shall not be amerced but by their Peers and according to the manner of their offence."
  In 1322 Thomas of Lancaster was executed after the Battle of Pomfret; but the judgment of forfeiture was reversed in 1327 on a Writ of Error, the principal ground being that the said Thomas was a Peer and Magnate, and had been adjudged to death otherwise than by the legal judgment of his Peers, the passage from Magna Charta being recited. The case of Lord Dacre was also a strong argument in favour of the view that the right of a Peer to be tried by his Peers was one which could not be waived. Looking, then, at the authorities on the subject, and at Constitutional history, he thought that it was shown to be not a Privilege of the individual, but a right of the House of Peers, which could never be taken from it except by Act of Parliament.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, that the noble and learned Lord opposite (Lord Coleridge) appeared to be under the impression that the right of a Peer to be tried by his Peers arose from his being a Lord of Parliament. In this instance he (the Earl of Milltown) ventured to think the noble and learned Lord was mistaken; it was a privilege of the Peerage, and had nothing to do with legislative rights. Bishops, though Lords of Parliament, were not triable of nobility, because they were not Peers. The Peers of Ireland and Scotland—whether in Parliament or not—had the right, because they were. Before the Union the Peers of Ireland—which was then a distinct Kingdom—were triable before their own House of Lords; and all their rights and privileges as Peers, except that of personally sitting in Parliament, were expressly reserved to them by Statute. The Act of Union made the two countries one Kingdom with one House of Lords.
  LORD HERSCHELLsaid, he wished to point out that the question was one of some difficulty, and that a learned Judge
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  was placed at some disadvantage in being called upon to decide a matter of this kind off-hand, without the opportunity of searching for precedents, and thus verifying his impressions. While there undoubtedly was some authority in favour of the decision arrived at in the matter by his noble and learned Friend the Lord Chief Justice of England, he (Lord Herschell) was of opinion that that authority was far outweighed by the authorities to the contrary. The case of the Marquess of Dorset was itself open to considerable criticism. He thought that his noble and learned Friend had shown that, on the occasion in question, he took the course which Judges frequently and necessarily took—of deciding according to the impression on his mind at the moment. He concurred with the view that had been expressed by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. For his own part, as far as he was able to judge, the better view seemed to be that a Peer could not waive his Privilege of trial by his Peers.

WOMEN'S SUFFRAGE BILL.—(No. 5.)
(The Lord Denman.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
LORD DENMAN,in moving the second reading of the Bill, said: My Lords, if my wife were to become a widow it would be very unfair if she, as a ratepayer, were unable to choose her Representative. On September 2 I moved the second reading of this Bill, in case the Houses of Parliament should have been adjourned instead of prorogued, in which case it might have been in a more forward state at this time. I hoped that only the report given by The Morning Post and the answer of the Lord Chancellor would have appeared in Hansard's Parliamentary Debates; but, to my surprise, I found an almost verbatim report of my speech. I venture to refer your Lordships to it. The excellent Rulers in the East and in the West to whom I alluded were a Princess of the Holkar Family, named in Sir J. Malcolm's India, and in the review of that work in The Edinburgh Review. Her only daughter was burnt at the funeral of her husband. The Potentate in the West was the Empress - Queen Maria Theresa, of

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whom the Hungarians exclaimed," Mo-riamur pro Maria Theresa Rege Nostra." Her Majesty's beloved daughter—Marie Antoinette—was beheaded in France. For ladies of courage, I named (in the presence of one, now of two, of her descendants) the Countess of Derby, who defended Lathom House. Her lord was beheaded. On the occasion of ladies being admitted to this House, the Leader of the Opposition, in answer to Lord Redesdale, said it reminded him of a gentleman who said the sight of ladies at a dinner table took away his appetite. The Earl of Redesdale, in 1869, said, on the Municipal Corporation Amendment Bill, that women were not capable of the higher duties which some wished to trust them with; but I will lay upon the Table of your Lordships' House a preface by a lady to her translation (dated 1848) of a speech by M. Begnon, in the Chamber of Deputies, in Paris, in 1821, on the Persecution and Proscription of the Jews—it proves the capacity of at least one woman. With regard to the choice of Members of Parliament, I will only say that if Mr. Bradlaugh were a candidate for Exeter in opposition to her son, I should consider it extremely unjust if the honoured Countess of Iddesleigh were (if a householder) prevented from voting.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Denman.)
THE PRIME MINISTER AND SECRETARY OF STATE FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS (The Marquess of SALISBURY): I do not desire to express any opinion upon the subject which the noble Lord has brought forward, not for the first time. It is, I admit, a subject of very great interest, and one on which I should think there is very considerable feeling among great numbers of the public out-of-doors; but the point to which I wish to draw his attention is that, as far as I know, it is not usual for either House of Parliament to undertake legislation for the purpose of altering the constitution of the other House. To initiate such legislation, though not beyond our powers, would be, to a certain extent, a breach of Parliamentary etiquette. The Government, therefore, propose to reserve their opinion upon the subject-matter of the Bill, until the question shall have been dealt with in the other House. On that ground alone,
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and without entering into the general question, I move, as an Amendment, that the Bill be read a second time this day six months.
Amendment moved, to leave out ("now") and add at the end of the Motion ("this day six months.")—(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
On Question, That ("now") stand part of the Motion?
Resolved in the negative.
Bill to be read 2athis day six months.

ROLL OF THE LORDS.
THE LORD CHANCELLORacquainted the House that the Clerk of the Parliaments had prepared and laid it on the Table: The same was ordered to be printed. (No. 6.)
LUNACY' ACTS AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.] (NO. 7)
A Bill to amend the Acts relating to lunatics; And

LUNACY BILL [H.L.] (NO. 8)
A Bill to consolidate the enactments respecting lunatics:
Were presented by The LORD CHANCELLOR; read 1a

CATHEDRAL CHURCHES BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to provide for making Statutes respecting deans and chapters and cathedral churches in England; and for other purposes relating thereto—Was presented by The Lord Bishop of CARLISLE; road 1a. (No. 9.)

ELECTRIC LIGHTING ACT (1882) AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to amend the Electric Lighting Act, 1882—Was presented by The Lord THURLOW; read 1a. (No. 10.)
House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.