Sitting of 12 June 1885

MINUTES.
-PUBLIC BILLS —First Reading— Metropolis (Tabard Street, Newington) Provisional Order Confirmation* [204]; Metropolis (Hughes Fields, Deptford) Provisional Order Confirmation* [205].
Report of Select Committee—River Thames (No. 2)* [No. 218].
Report—Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 1)* [143]; Water Provisional Orders* [142]; Gas and Water Provisional Orders (No. 2)* [149],

PARLIAMENT—ADJOURNMENT—RESIGNATION OF MINISTERS—STATEMENT OF MR. GLADSTONE—ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS.
MR. GLADSTONE: I rise, Sir—as the House, I think, will anticipate—for the purpose, in the first instance, of communicating what has taken place since I apprised the House on Tuesday last that the Cabinet had submitted a humble communication to Her Majesty. The nature of that communication, although it could not be expressly stated, was perfectly understood to be the resignation of the Offices which we held by the favour of the Crown. That communication was made on the 9th, and reached Balmoral in the regular course on the afternoon of the 10th. Her Majesty acknowledged it by telegram upon the 10th, and Her Majesty's reply—Her gracious reply—was made on the 11th, accepting the resignation of the Government, and announcing, at the same time to me, that she had summoned Lord Salisbury to Bal moral. In that communication to Her Majesty of the 9th of June, I stated, on the part of the Cabinet, that their resignation grew out of the vote which had been given by the House of Commons on Monday night, and that it sprang from that source, and was founded upon that reason alone. Sir, of Lord Salisbury's movements I have no direct information; but I believe I am correct in saying that he left London last night for the purpose of obeying the commands of Her Majesty; and, if so, in the regular course, at the moment I am speaking, Lord Salisbury ought to be at Bal moral and in communication with Her Majesty. Sir, under those circumstances, and in his absence—it being impossible to have

1529
bad any communication from him—the House will feel that the general arguments which induced the House on Tuesday to refrain from entering on Public Business are still in full force. If that view is taken it will not, in fact, be necessary for me to make a Motion on the subject; because the Motion that I should make, if any such step were necessary, would be that the House should, at its rising, adjourn till Monday; and that is what I believe will take place in the regular course without any Motion on the subject at all. That being so, Sir, I have still to make a deviation in a particular case from the general rule to which I have just referred, and to submit to the House some considerations relating to a particular subject which was named on Tuesday last. A question has not unnaturally arisen, considering the very peculiar circumstances of the case, whether it might be expedient for the public interest and convenience that the House, even in the present state of things, without having, in the full sense of the term, what may be called a responsible Government, should proceed to deal with any Amendments that the Lords may have made in the Bill for the Redistribution of Seats—presuming that those Amendments may now be, as I believe is probable, on the point of being settled in the House of Lords, and may be likely to reach this House before possibly even so short a time as half-an-hour may have elapsed. Now, Sir, upon this subject I venture to make a recommendation, with very great deference to the House, conditional upon several circumstances, and grounded upon reasons which may be stated in the shortest way. I make it conditionally on the full and unqualified assent—I may almost say the desire—of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen who sit opposite, and who are responsible for the conduct of the affairs of what I may call the principal Opposition in this House. I will venture to assume, on the part of another important, although not numerically so strong, portion of the Opposition, that there is probably a desire in that portion of the House likewise that the subject of the redistribution of seats should be settled. I assume that such is the case. Unless such be the ease, I should not persevere in the suggestion which I make. But, Sir, it is founded
1530
on considerations of importance. In the first place, I believe I am correct in saying that there are no differences of principle touching the substance of the Bill. I am happy to think that, not only are none likely to arise, but that none can possibly arise in relation to this great subject. The goodly ship, whose voyage we have watched with the greatest anxiety, is virtually in port. That consideration of the absence of differences is one of vital importance, and lies at the root of the recommendation which I now make. But further, Sir, it is well known to the House that there was, on the part of the existing Government, something in the nature of a compact with those who constitute the Opposition in this House having relation to the nature of that Bill, having relation to their anxiety to have the entire question settled at once and placed beyond the reach of any adverse contingency, having relation to their very great desire—a desire in which up to a certain point we concur—that the new franchise should come into operation in connection with the redistribution of seats and the new constituencies. That compact, on our part, as well as on the part of hon. Gentlemen opposite—they have the chief interest in it—is all but fulfilled. I feel that it will have been fulfilled when the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill has passed both Houses of Parliament; and I confess it is a gratification to me, and I believe to my Colleagues, in quitting Office, if we can look upon that transaction as a transaction signed, sealed, and delivered, with nothing remaining for the future. The most important consideration, however, of all is that which I have not yet mentioned, but which is very familiar to the minds of all who hear me. It is that already, owing to the necessity of the case, the time has run so short that it will impose considerable difficulties upon the local officers throughout the country charged with the important business of registration to dispose of that duty in a satisfactory manner; and I do not exaggerate when I say that, as far as I understand the case, every day is of great importance, and that every day lost is a serious public inconvenience and evil. Now, Sir, in putting these circumstances together, if I find that I am right in my impression that there is a general de-

1531
sire, and particularly a desire on the part of those with whom we formerly communicated on the subject of the Redistribution of Seats Bill, that this Bill should be dealt with at once, not with standing the pendency of a regular Government, I should certainly advise that that course should be taken, and that this House, if so disposed, shall wait until the Lords' Amendments have been communicated, and shall then at once proceed to consider them. There is nothing unusual in that course. In regard to the general Business, it is more customary that we should have Notice; but if Notice were interposed, we should have to wait until Monday for the purpose of dealing with this subject; but if we determined that, upon the whole, we ought to set aside the main difficulty which arises from the position of the Government, it is quite obvious that we ought to take the full advantage which we are to gain, the prospect of which has led us to set aside that objection, and ought at once to proceed to dispose of these Amendments. That is all that it is necessary for me to say; and I have no Motion to make, having submitted this statement by indulgence, which indulgence, I have no doubt, will be extended in like manner to those who may have to inform the House whether my suppositions and assumptions as to the general feeling on this subject are correct. If that be so, I trust the justification will be ample for me in submitting the communication which I have ventured to make—that, by following a mode not very unusual, we should await the time when the Lords' Amendments may, in the regular course, reach us, and should then proceed to deal with them.
SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: Sir, I am desirous that the Bill to which the right hon. Gentleman refers should proceed as rapidly as possible, and, as far as I am aware, there is no reason why the Amendments made in the House of Lords should not receive the assent of this House; but we are in a peculiar position through not having the Amendments printed and put before us, and though my own feeling was originally that it would be desirable to proceed with them at once, yet communications have reached me from different parts of the House, from which I understand that there is some doubt in the matter.
1532
It is not a case in which we ought to proceed if there is any doubt, and I think we had better not proceed until the Amendments are printed.
MR. GLADSTONE: I am certainly bound, and I am not indisposed, to accede to the wish which has been stated by the right hon. Gentleman. I am sorry that we should lose the time until Monday; but still we should gain the most part of what it is desired to gain, and therefore I withdraw any suggestion as to proceeding to-day; but I would still suggest that the sitting of the House should not be brought to a close, but that the Amendments should be brought down to this House and laid upon the Table, after which they could be printed and taken into consideration on Monday next.
House suspended its Sitting at a quarter to Five of the Clock.
House resumed its Sitting at a quarter past Five of the Clock.

PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (REDISTRIBUTION) BILL.

  CONSIDERATION OF LORDS' AMENDMENTS.
  On the Motion of Sir CHARLES W. DILKE, Lords' Amendments to be considered upon Monday next, and to be printed. [Bill 202.]
  House adjourned at a quarter after Five o'clock till Monday next.

MINUTES.
Representative Feer for Scotland—The Earl of Lindsay, v. The Earl of Selkirk, deceased.
Took the Oath—The Earl of Lindsay.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Real Property Registration * (132).
Committee—Gas Provisional Orders (No. 1)* (108).
Committee—Report—Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 4)* (123).
Select Committee—Report—Poor Law Guardians (Ireland) [No. 130].
Report—Poor Law Guardians (Ireland)* (3–31).
Report—Third Reading—Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) (129), and passed.

PARLIAMENT—ADJOURNMENT—RESIGNATION OF MINISTERS—STATEMENT OF EARL GRANVILLE—ARRANGEMENT OF PUBLIC BUSINESS.
EARL GEANVILLE: My Lords, in regard to what I had the honour to state at the last Sitting of the House—Tuesday, the 9th—to your Lordships, I have now to inform the House that Mr. Gladstone has tendered his resignation and that of his Colleagues to Her Majesty, and that Her Majesty has been graciously pleased to accept that resignation, and has summoned the noble Mar-
1522
quess (the Marquess of Salisbury), who I believe, is at this moment at Balmoral. Under these circumstances, your Lordships, I am sure, will feel that it would not be right to proceed with any ordinary Business; but there is one exception, and that is in regard to the Parliamentary Elections (Redistribution) Bill; and my noble Friend the Secretary of State for India (the Earl of Kimberley), who has charge of that Bill, will explain the arrangement which has been entered into between himself and the noble Marquess, and in that course I understand that the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Cranbrook) will propose that the House do concur.

PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (REDISTRIBUTION) BILL.—(No. 129.)
(The Earl of Kimberley.)
PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (REDISTRIBUTION) BILL.—(No. 129.)

  REPORT.
  Report of Amendments considered (according to order).
  THE EARL OF KIMBEELEY,in moving that the Report of Amendments be received and agreed to, said, that although the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) was not present, he (the Earl of Kimberley) believed he was anxious that the consideration of the present stage should be taken at once, for the arrangement which had been come to would be one for the public convenience in regard to the Bill coining into operation, and it would have the effect of preventing some delay to its progress, and the consequent amount of inconvenience, which would be very considerable, arising from it. He therefore hoped the Motion would meet with the concurrence of the House. The circumstances of the case were such that he ventured to hope that all minor matters in regard to the names of divisions would not be pressed by his noble Friends, as they were not of vital importance. Of the Amendments he had to propose, the most important was one to enable a Dissolution of Parliament to take place after the 7th of November next. That was intended to have been dealt with by a separate Bill, which had been prepared by the Government; but it had been suggested to him (Lord Salisbury) that it would be a great convenience to insert the necessary provisions in the present Bill There were

  1523
  also other provisions intended to meet the case of some boroughs which had been disfranchised, and which were situate in two counties. There was a precedent in the proceedings of 1868 for what he now proposed to do. The clauses were to meet technical difficulties, and some of the Amendments which he would propose would be verbal only, and such as he had no doubt their Lordships would find no difficulty in agreeing to.
  Moved, "That the Report of Amendments be received and agreed to."—(The Earl of Kimberley.)
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, that in the absence of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Salisbury) he had been requested by his noble Friend to state that he entirely agreed with the course proposed to be taken by the noble Earl; while as to Amendments of a minor character, he (Viscount Cranbrook) hoped that their Lordships would act on the proposition of the noble Earl (the Earl of Kimberley), and agree to the Report being received, in order to carry the Bill to a successful issue.
  Motion agreed to.
  On the Motion of The Earl of KIMBERLEY, the following Amendments made:—Title, page 1, leave out ("relative thereto"); Clause 17, page 8, line 1, after ("arising out of") insert ("successive occupation or"); line 12, insert at end of clause—
  ("and where the area of the constituency of which such place before such change formed part becomes, after such change, part of two or more constituencies, each of such two or more constituencies shall, for the purposes of this section, be deemed to have included the whole of the said area")
  Clause 19, page 9, line 21, leave out ("of counties"); lines 22 and 23, leave out—
  ("make such order as may be necessary") and insert ("by order alter or vary such polling districts and the polling places for such districts in such manner as appears to him necessary or desirable");
  Clause 23, page 11, line 18, leave out from ("districts") to ("and") in line 19; and in page 12, line 44, after ("county") insert ("at large").
  Page 14, after Clause 28, insert the following clauses:—

PART IV.

  ACCELERATION OF REGISTRATION IN 1885.
  (Power to appoint additional barristers.)
  "If in the present year it is made to appear to any judge of the High Court of Justice, sitting in chambers at any time after the fifth day of September, that the lists of voters for any Parliamentary county or borough in England cannot by reason of the insufficient number of barristers be revised within the period fixed by this Act, such judge shall appoint one or more duly qualified barristers to act in addition to the barristers originally appointed for such county or borough, and a barrister so appointed shall have the same duties, powers, and authority an if he had been originally appointed.
  "Where the Lord Chief Justice or judge appoints in the present year barristers for counties and boroughs on any circuit, he shall appoint them to act for all the counties and boroughs for which he has power to appoint revising barristers; and each barrister, when acting in or for any county or borough, shall have the same duties, powers, and authority as if he had been appointed sole revising barrister for such county or borough.
  "The duties of barristers so appointed shall be distributed among them as the Lord Chief Justice or judge who appoints them, or, after the fifth day of September, any judge of the High Court of Justice sitting in Chambers may direct.
  (Dates for registration in the year 18S5 in England.)
  "With respect to the registration of voters in Parliamentary counties and boroughs in England in the present year, the following provisions shall have effect:—

  "(a.)The lists of Parliamentary voters, and the lists of burgesses which are revised together with the lists of Parliamentary voters, shall be revised between the eighth day of September and the eighth day of October both inclusive, and shall be revised as soon as possible after the seventh day of September, and the eighth day of September shall be substituted in the Acts relating to the registration of Parliamentary voters fur the 15th day of September; and the declarations under section ten at the County Voters Registration Act, 1803, and section twenty-lour of the Parliamentary and Municipal Registration Act, 1878, shall be sent to the Clerk of the Peace or town clerk on or before the fifth day of September.

  "(b.)The printed book or register containing the lists of voters, when revised, shall be delivered to the returning officer for the Parliamentary county or borough to which such book or register relates on or before the seventh day of November, and shall be the register of persons entitled to vote for the county or borough at any election of a member to serve in Parliament which takes place after that day, or if this present Parliament is not then dissolved, then after the date of such dissolution, and before the first day of January one thousand eight hundred and eighty-seven.

  "(c.)In sections sixty-two and sixty-three of the Act of the session of the sixth and seventh years of the reign of Her present Majesty, chapter

  1525
  eighteen, relating to appeals from revising barristers in England, 'the Michaelmas sittings of the High Court of Justice' shall be substituted for ' the Michaelmas term,' and forthwith after the fourth day of the Michaelmas sittings a court or courts shall sit for the purpose of hearing such appeals, and those appeals shall be heard and determined continuously and without delay, and any statement by the barrister for the purpose of any such appeal made in pursuance of section forty-two of the said Act may be made at any time within ten days after the conclusion of the revision, so that it be made not less than four days before the first day of the said Michaelmas sittings, and the statement need not be read in open court, but shall be submitted to the appellant, who shall sign the same as directed by the said section, and return the same to the barrister.

  (35 & 36 Viet. c. 33.)
  "(d.) In section five of the Ballot Act, 1872. relating to polling districts, the first day of October shall be substituted for the first day of November, as respects the date at which orders relating to polling districts apply to registers of voters.
  (Date for registration for 1885 in Scotland.)
  "In Scotland, notwithstanding anything contained in section thirteen of the Representation of the people Act, 1884, the register of voters made in the present year shall come into force on the first day of November one thousand eight hundred and eighty-five."
  (Dates for revision in Ireland in 1885. 13 & 11 Viet. c. 69. ss. 46, 47, 64, 76.)
  "In Ireland, in the present year

  "(a.)The lists of voters shall be revised between the fourth day of September and the eighth day of October, both inclusive, and shall be revised as soon as possible after the fourth day of September, and that day shall be substituted in the Parliamentary Registration (Ireland) Act for the eighth day of September.

  "(b.)Notice of the holding of a revision court may be given by the chairman or revising barrister to the clerk of the peace at any time not less than five days before the holding of the court, and shall be published and posted by the clerk of the peace forthwith.

  "(c.) The book or books constituting the register of voters for every county and borough shall be signed and delivered to the sheriff or returning officer not later than the seventh day of November.

  "Such register shall commence and come into force on the seventh day of November, or if this present Parliament is not then dissolved, then on the day of such dissolution, and shall be the register of voters in force between the day on which it commences and the first day of January one thousand eight hundred and eighty-seven."

  "(d.)In sections seventy-five and seventy-six of the Act of the session of the thirteenth and fourteenth years of the reign of Her present Majesty, chapter sixty-nine, relating to appeals from chairmen or revising barristers, ' the Michaelmas sitting,? of the High Court of Justice in Ireland' shall be substituted for ' the Michaelmas term,' and forthwith after the fourth day of the Michaelmas sittings, a court or courts shall sit for the purpose of hearing such appeals, and those appeals
  1526
  shall be heard and determined continuously and without delay, and any statement by the chairman or revising barrister for the purpose of any such appeal made in pursuance of section fifty-eight of the said Act may be made at any time within ten days after the conclusion of the revision, so that it be made not less than four days before the first day of the said Michaelmas sittings, and the statement need not be read in open court, but shall be submitted to the appellant, who shall sign the same as directed by the said section, and return the same to the chairman or revising barrister.

  (Definitions.)
  "For the purposes of this part of this Act—
  "The expression 'present year' means the year one thousand eight hundred and eighty-five.
  "The expression 'parliamentary county ' means a county returning a member or members to serve in Parliament, and where a county is divided for the purpose of such return means a division of such county.
  (41 & 42 Viet. c. 26.)
  "Other expressions in this part of this Act have, unless the context otherwise requires, the same meaning as in the Acts relating to the registration of parliamentary voters.
  (Temporary repeal of inconsistent provisions.)
  "All provisions of any Act of Parliament inconsistent with the provisions of this part of this Act shall not apply to the lists or register of voters to be made in the present year; but, save as aforesaid, all the provisions of the Acts relating to the registration of parliamentary voters shall remain in full force."
  Schedule (6, page 37, column 2, line 24, leave out ("detached"); line 25, after ("entirely")insert("or, nearly.")
  Seventh Schedule.
  VISCOUNT BURYproposed an Amendment, which in effect was that a division of Hampshire should be called "The Lymington" instead of "The New Forest" Division.
  Amendment moved, in page 59, line 35, before ("New Forest") insert ("Lymington and.")—(The Viscount Bury.)
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he objected to the Amendment, as the matter had been discussed and disposed of by the House of Commons.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOKsaid, he hoped that his noble Friend (Viscount Bury) would not press his Amendment.
  On Question? Resolved in the negative.
  On the Motion of The Earl of KIMBERLEY, the following Amendments made:—In page 77, line 17, 2nd column, after ("Stafford") insert ("including the whole of the parish of Gnosall"); lines 18 and 19, leave out ("including the whole of the parish of Gnosall");

  1527
  page 90, line 28, after ("Kilbride") insert ("and so much of the parish of Kirkpatrick juxta as may be in the county of Lanark"); line 36, leave out ("so much") and insert the ("detached portion"); page 91, line 1, leave out ("as") and insert ("which"); page 103, lines 11 and 12, leave out ("North Liberties"); page 110, line 3, leave out ("Kilculliheen"); and line 28, after ("Dysart") insert ("except the town-lands of Ballyote, Slanebeg, and Slane-more").
  Standing Order No. XXXV. considered (according to Order), and dispensed with; Bill read 3a with the Amendments, and passed, and sent to the Commons.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYproposed that their Lordships should adjourn during pleasure, in order that they might receive the Bill on its return from the Commons after the Amendments had been considered.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, that he should propose that their Lordships should meet at the usual hour on Monday; but it would be necessary for the House to meet to-morrow as a Committee for Privileges, and therefore the Adjournment would be formally until to-morrow.
  House adjourned during pleasure.
  House resumed.
  On the Motion of Earl GRANVILLE, House adjourned till To-morrow.

  ACCELERATION OF REGISTRATION IN 1885.
    THE EARL OF LINDSAY.
    The Clerk of the Crown in Chancery delivered his certificate that the Earl of Lindsay had been elected a Representative Peer for Scotland in the room of the Earl of Selkirk deceased.
    REAL PROPERTY REGISTRATION BILL. [H.L.]
    A Bill to facilitate the transfer of real property" in England by establishing a general system of registration of title—Was presented by The Duke of MAKLBOROUGII; read 1a. (No. 132.)

    PRIVATE AND PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION BILLS.
    Ordered that Standing Orders Nos. 72 and 82 be suspended for the remainder of the Session.
    House adjourned at Five o'clock, till To-morrow, Eleven o'clock.