Sitting of 9 July 1885

MINUTES.
NEW WRIT ISSUED—For Horsham, v. Sir Henry Fletcher, baronet, Groom in Waiting.
SELECT COMMITTEE — School Board Elections (Voting), Mr. Arthur Balfour and Viscount Folkestone added; Kitchen and Refresh-ment Booms, Mr. Sidney Herbert added.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee — Resolutions [July 8] reported.
WAYS AND MEANS—considered in Committee- — Four Million Pounds, Exchequer Bills or Treasury Bills.
PUBLIC BILLS — Resolution in Committee — Ordered —First Reading —Licensing Laws Amendment * [226].
Ordered —First Reading —Customs and Inland Revenue (No. 2)* [223]; Deeds of Arrangement Registration * [225]; Metropolitan Board of Works (Money) * [224].
First Reading —Ecclesiastical Commissioners * [227].
Second Reading — Criminal Law Amendment * [159]; Federal Council of Australasia [165]; Turnpike Acts Continuance* [218]; Yorkshire Registries * [211]; Factory Acts (Extension to Shops) [23].
Select Committee —Pluralities [22], nominated.
Committee — Public Health (Members and Officers)[114]—R.P.; Parliamentary Elections (Corrupt Practices) [148]—R.P.
Committee — Report — Copyhold Enfranchisement [26].
Considered as amended —Third Reading— Shannon Navigation* [171]; River Thames (No. 2) [90], and passed.
Third Reading —Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (Labourers Act) (No. 5)* [186], and passed.
Withdrawn —Marriages Validity* [103]; Police [113]; Intermediate Education, Wales [195].

QUESTIONS.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSION—FAIR RENTS.
  MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, What number of applications to fix fair rents is now undisposed of by the Land Commission; what is the average number per month of originating notices issued for the past twelve months; and, whether such provision will be made for the hearing of applications by tenants as will ensure a speedy adjudication?
  THE CHIEF SECRETARY: The number of applications to have fair rents fixed which were undisposed of on the 30th ultimo was 3,434. In the 12 months to that date originating notices came in at the average rate of 593 per month, and cases were heard at the average rate of 943 per month. There is, therefore, a reasonable prospect of the arrears being soon wiped out.

SUEZ CANAL—THE CONFERENCE.
MR. CHARLES PALMERasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, When the Papers respecting the Conference held in Paris on the neutrality of the Suez Canal will be issued; and, whether ho is prepared to give the same pledge to the House as was given by the late Government, that no Convention shall be confirmed until the House has pronounced an opinion on it?
THE UNDER SECRETARY: The Papers are in course of preparation for Parliament; but they are voluminous, and it is not expected that they can be laid on the Table for a fortnight. The House will have an opportunity of passing a judgment on the proposed Convention before any further step is taken. No agreement has yet been arrived at as to its terms.

PUBLIC HEALTH — INTERNATIONAL SANITARY CONFERENCE AT ROME.
MR. SUTHERLANDasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to lay upon the Table of the House Papers relating to the proceedings of the International Sanitary Conference at Rome, including Reports by the British Representatives?
THE UNDER SECRETARY: Papers on the subject are in preparation, and will be laid before Parliament as soon as possible. We have not yet received all the Protocols of the Conference. The translations have not been commenced, and I do not see much hope of their being ready before the Recess.

EGYPT—THE INTERNATIONAL SANITARY COUNCIL—QUARANTINE.
MR. SUTHERLANDasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Her Majesty's Government are aware that the International Sanitary Council of Egypt has, within the last few days, published an edict to the effect that all vessels bound through the Suez Canal from India (or from other so called "infected" countries) are to be required, before being allowed to enter the Canal, even though they may have no intention of communicating with Egypt, to undergo an elaborate process of disinfection by pumping sulphate of iron, or other acid, through the bilges of the ship, a process which would, in every case, lead to most serious delay, and also be highly detrimental to the structures of iron vessels and to cargoes, especially those of a valuable character, such, for example, as tea; if so, whether Her Majesty's Government will take the necessary steps to prevent the Government of Egypt interfering with the passage of British ships through the Suez Canal?
THE UNDER SECRETARY: I am obliged to the hon. Member for giving some days' Notice of this Question, which has enabled us to telegraph to Egypt on the subject; and it appears that a regulation of the tenour mentioned has been recently issued by the Egyptian Quarantine Board. But it does not appear certain, from the information in the possession of Her Majesty's Government, that vessels having no intention
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of communicating with Egypt fall under the new Order, though it does, apparently, include all vessels coming to Egypt from infected ports. Under these circumstances, a full Report has been called for as to the regulation in question. I may mention that the same regulation has for some time been in force for vessels having had cases of cholera (or suspected cases) on board during the voyage. I can assure the hon. Member that this country has never admitted that such restrictions on passage through the Canal of British vessels bound to British ports are legitimate; and if the hon. Member will be kind enough to put a further Question on a future day, I hope I shall be able to report a less unsatisfactory state of things.

TRADE AND COMMERCE — THE DEPRESSION OF TRADE-AROYAL COMMISSION.
MR. ARTHUR ARNOLDasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether it is intended to advise Her Majesty to issue a Royal Commission to make inquiry with regard to depression of trade; and, if so, whether a Supplementary Estimate will be presented for the expenses of that Commission during the current year?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: An inquiry into the depression of trade has been resolved upon by the Government. I hope to be in a position to make a further statement upon the subject in a few days.
MR. ARTHUR ARNOLDgave Notice that on Monday he would ask whether the right hon. Baronet would lay on the Table of the House the text of the Royal Commission, including the names of those composing it?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I beg to say it will be quite impossible for me to answer the Question on Monday.
MR. ARTHUR ARNOLD: Well, on an early day.

SALE OF FOOD AND DRUGS ACT-OLEOMARGARINE.
MR. DUCKHAMasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether he is aware that the refuse fat of animals formerly sent to the tallow chandler is now used in the manufacture of oleomargarine; that much of the fat

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so used is often in a very putrid state; that chemicals of a very deleterious nature are used to deodorise it; and, whether he will cause such a supervision of the manufactories in the United Kingdom as shall guard against so revolting a practice?
THE PRESIDENT: The Board have no information as to any such manufacture as that described in England. But if the hon. Gentleman can inform me where any such manufacture is carried on in England withputrid materials and chemicals of a deleterious nature, we shall be prepared to bring the matter under the attention of the Local Authority. Of course, if butterine is sold as butter, it is an offence under the Sale of Food and Drugs Act, and in many instances convictions have been obtained in respect of that offence.

CENTRAL ASIA—THE AFGHAN BOUNDARY COMMISSION—DESPATCHES OF SIR PETER LUMSDEN.
MR. ONSLOWasked the Secretary of State for India, Whether there would be any objection to lay upon the Table of the House all the Despatches and Telegrams in full sent by Sir P. Lums-den to the late Government?
MR. BOURKE (for Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL): In reply to the hon. Member's Question, I have to state that in the opinion of Her Majesty's Government it would not be in the interest of the Public Service to lay Sir Peter Lumsden's Correspondence on the Table in the present stage of the negotiations with Russia.

EGYPTIAN GENERAL ASSEMBLY—THE EGYPTIAN LOAN.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the Egyptian General Assembly has been convened, as required by the Egyptian Constitution, to consider the proposed loan of nine millions which has already been submitted to the British and French Legislatures; and, whether the present Government will promise, as the late Government promised, that the Egyptian Law will be observed in this matter, and that the loan will not be illegally raised without due sanction of the Egyptian Assembly?
THE UNDER SECRETARY: The Egyptian General Assembly has not been
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convened; but Her Majesty's Government have no reason to believe that it is intended to omit any formality which may be necessary to insure the legality of the loan. They are not aware of any promise having been given by the late Government, such as is mentioned by the hon. Member. I suppose the hon. Member alludes to the statement made by the late Prime Minister on the 24th of March, in answer to a Question from himself, namely—
"The business of the Khedive no doubt, if ho thinks proper, is to take all the steps required by the law in force in Egypt to fulfil in a regular manner his part of the duties connected with this Convention. Application has been made to the Khedive upon the subject, and he has engaged to take all those steps. Therefore my hon. Friend need not feel any alarm as to what has been done so far as Egypt is concerned."—(3 Hansard, [296] 388.)
The question, therefore, stands now as it was left by the late Government.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, what he wished to know was whether any steps had been taken by the Khedive since the late Prime Minister made the statement referred to?
THE UNDER SECRETARYsaid, he had no addition to make to the statement of the late Prime Minister. The matter was in exactly the same position now as when that statement was made.

IRELAND—SPEECH OF LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL.
MR. M'COANasked the Secretary of State for India, Whether the following extract from a Report in The Times, of 21st December, 1883, of a speech delivered by him at Edinburgh on the previous day, is substantially accurate:—
"I believe that the Tory Party is not prepared to give way an inch to the Irish Party in this matter [of further concessions]; it is resolved to stand firm; and I tell you truly and sincerely that on this question the Tory Party is entitled to your support. It is time, and high time, to pull up. Concede nothing-more to Mr. Parnell, either on the land, or on the franchise, or on local self-government. We have gone in three short years too far, and we have gone too fast; the hill is very steep, the drag has not been sufficiently weighted, and, unless we take a long pull and a strong pull, the horses will get away from us, and there will be a terrible smash. Develop, if you like, in any way you may, the material resources of Ireland. Advance public money on the easiest terms for railways, tramways, canals, roads, labourers' dwellings, fisheries, and objects of that kind. We owe the Irish a great deal for

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our bad government of them in the past, and, if we are not stingy, there are few injuries, however deep, which money will not cure. But do not, as you value your life as an empire, swallow one morsel more of heroic legislation; and, by giving a continuous support to the Tory Party, let the Irish know that, although they cry day and night, though they vex you with much wickedness, and harass you with much disorder, though they incessantly divert your attention from your own affairs, though they cause you all manner of trial and trouble, that there is one thing you will detect at once, in whatever form or guise it may be presented to you, there is one thing you will never listen to, there is one thing you will never yield to, and that is, their demand for an Irish Parliament; and that, to their yells for the repeal of the Union, you answer an unchanging, an unchangeable, and a unanimous 'No;'"
and, if so, whether he still adheres to these views of Irish policy, and, as a Minister of the Crown, will continue to give them his support?
THE SECRETARY: The speech to which the hon. Member alludes was made nearly two years ago. Of course, the hon. Member will understand that I cannot be perfectly certain as to the absolute accuracy of the report of a speech made nearly two years ago; but I have every reason to believe that it is accurate. I hope the hon. Member will not think me wanting in courtesy towards him if I express the opinion that I should be altogether misusing the time of the House which is allotted to the asking of Questions, and abusing the privilege and the latitude which is given to Ministers by the House in answering Questions, if I were to enter into any controversy with him as to any speeches which I may have made some time ago. But if the hon. Member thinks, in the exercise of his discretion, that it would be either to the public advantage or to his own personal satisfaction or relief to pursue any controversy further about speeches which I have made, then I would invite him to take advantage of the numerous opportunities which the proceedings of this House must undoubtedly afford him to raise the matter in debate, and I can assure him that I will meet him with the utmost frankness and candour. I neither withdraw nor apologize for anything that I have said at any time, believing, as I do, that anything which I may have said at any time was perfectly justified by the special circumstances of that time, and by the amount of information which I may have had in my possession.

LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND)— MISS KIERAN", TENANT OF THE EARL OF HOWTH.
MR. SHEILasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he is aware that Miss Kieran, of Leggah, county Meath, a tenant of Lord Howth, has been served with a writ for £560, being the amount of a year's rent, although only one half-year's rent was due on May the 1st, exclusive of the hanging gale; that the half-year's rent was tendered to Lord Howth's solicitor before the end of May; that he refused to take it, and went on with the writ for the full year's rent, although the second half is not collected in the ordinary course until November next; whether he is aware that, on the 25th of this month, a man named Mathews, who acts as bailiff to the sub-sheriff, seized Miss Kieran's effects, and, when half drunk, forced his way into that lady's room, grossly insulted her, and refused to leave; and, whether, in these circumstances of exceptional severity, he will endeavour to afford Miss Kieran redress, and protection against improper conduct of the sheriff's officer?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY: I have no information as to the matters between Lord Howth and his late tenant which are referred to in this Question. I am informed that the conduct of the bailiff was very bad; but I am advised that the proper means of redress open to Miss Kieran is to bring a charge in the usual way before a magistrate, or by civil action. The police will afford Miss Kieran protection against any violence on the part of the sheriff's officer.

SOUTH AFRICA-BECHUANALAND.
MR. R. N. FOWLER (LORD MAYOR)asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether he has received from Sir Charles Warren, Her Majesty's Special Commissioner in Bechuanaland, any detailed information concerning the cession of land which the great Chief Khame has made to His Excellency in Northern Bechuanaland, for purposes of English settlement; and, if so, will he inform the House of the nature and extent of the territory thus ceded?
THE SECRETARY: Yes; information has been received by telegram from

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Sir Charles Warren, and forwarded by Sir Hercules Robinson on May 27, to the effect that an offer of territory has been made by the Chief Khame. This Chief states that his territory is bounded on the north by the River Zambesi; east by Gwaikei, Mahobi, and Tolwey (? Talo) River, which runs into the Limpopo, 29deg. 40min. E.; west, by Mobabi, Tamalulsea River, and Nalcheri, a district comprising over 100,000 square miles. He proposes to retain for tribal use territory round Shoshong comprising about 2,000 square miles, and offers the rest to England for English settlers, who are, with his own people, to defend the country from filibusters. He objects to his territory being cut in two by latitude 22deg., which is the Northern boundary of the Protectorate, and wishes it taken right up to the Zambesi (say, latitude 18deg.) I am forced to say that these boundaries are not undisputed. They would, in my opinion, require very careful examination before they could be accepted as a basis for any negotiation, should such take place; and as a matter of caution I must not admit, as implied in my right hon. Friend's Question, that the territory above referred to has been actually "ceded," though the offer has thus been intimated. Sir Charles Warren describes the country as "magnificent for cattle farming and agriculture." It is about 600 to 800 miles from Kimberley, the nearest market at present. This information comes by telegram, and I await further details.

NATIONAL EDUCATION (IRELAND)— SALARIES OF NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS.
MR. JUSTIN HUNTLYM'CARTHYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the Government will grant a Supplementary Estimate, in addition to the class salaries of the Irish National School Teachers, pending legislation?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY: This is a very serious Question, and requires careful consideration. I am not in a position to give any undertaking in respect to it. I should, perhaps, observe that the Roman Catholic Bishops in their letter, which is now before the House, point to increased payment in the shape of results fees as the proper method of augmenting the teachers' salaries.

PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (IRELAND)—ASSISTANT REVISING BARRISTERS.
MR. HEALYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Can ho state how many assistant revising barristers are to be appointed this year in Ireland; at what rate they will be paid; who they are; who will decide the county or province they will act in; and, will any opportunity be given of discussing the political complexion of the appointments, on a Supplementary Estimate this Session, or other wise?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY: The question of appointing Assistant Revising Barristers is at present engaging the attention of the Government, and inquiries have been set on foot with the view of ascertaining what number will be required. It is expected that this information will be to hand in about a week. The Treasury have fixed the remuneration at five guineas a-day, with actual travelling expenses and the usual subsistence allowance for each night's absence from home; but I believe they propose to limit the number of days for which the Assistant Barristers shall be employed.
MR. HEALYasked whether there would be a Supplementary Estimate, and an opportunity for discussing the matter?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY: Yes.

EGYPT—M. OLIVIER PAIN.
MR. O'KELLYasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether it is true that Captain G. F. Wilson, R.E., offered a reward of fifty pounds to whoever would capture M. Olivier Pain "dead or alive, or would present his papers;" and, if so, what was the date of this proclamation; whether the proclamation was withdrawn, and what was the date of the withdrawal; whether Her Majesty's Government have taken any steps with regard to Captain Wilson's con-duct; and, if not, whether it is intended to take any action against that officer; and, whether it is true that General Wolseley has announced the death of M. Olivier Pain?
THE SECRETARY: In consequence of the Question of the hon. Member for Athlone (Mr. Justin Huntly M'Carthy) on the subject, inquiries were

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made by Sir Evelyn Baring as to the authenticity of the alleged Proclamation. Sir Redvers Buller, who was at the time in command on the Nile, was unable to trace that any such Proclamation had been issued; and I may add that there never was a Commandant at Sarras, where it is alleged the Proclamation was issued, who had any power or authority to issue such a Proclamation. With reference to the announcement of the death of Olivier Pain, Lord Wolse-ley telegraphed, on the 27th of June, that Luigi Bonomi, a priest who escaped from Kordofan, received in November last from Lupton Bey a letter stating that Pain was dead. On the other hand, one Ghalli, a merchant from Khartoum, alleged that when he recently left the town Pain was there.

CYPRUS—REPORT OF THE HIGH COMMISSIONER.
CAPTAIN AYLMERasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, "When the Report of the High Commissioner of Cyprus, in continuation of C. 4188, which was up to March 1884, will be presented to Parliament?
THE SECRETARY, in reply, said, that the Paper referred to had not arrived; but he hoped it would be shortly before him.

EGYPT—SLAVERY.
MR. M'COANasked the Undersecretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether his attention has been drawn to a pamphlet entitled "Scandals in Cairo in connection with Slavery," recently published under the auspices of the British and Foreign Slavery Society, to whom the documents, in proof of the statements made, have been submitted, which affirms the present complicity of the Khedive and several high Egyptian officials in the maintenance of the slave trade; and, whether the Foreign Office will direct an investigation into the grave charges so made against the officials concerned?
THE UNDER SECRETARY, in reply, said, that no such pamphlet as that referred to by the hon. Member had reached the Foreign Office.
MR. M'COANsaid, he would be happy to send the right hon. Gentleman a copy of it, and perhaps he would answer the
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Question on Monday. [Cries of "Order!"]

POST OFEICE—NORTH AMERICAN POSTAL SERVICE.
MR. GILESasked the Postmaster General, When the Select Committee on the Great Britain and North American Postal Service will commence its sittings?
THE POSTMASTER, in reply, said, he was not able at present to give any information on the subject.
MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, that this Committee was moved for by his right hon. Friend the Member for Montrose, who was appointed Chairman. His right hon. Friend had informed him that he would not be able to act as Chairman. Looking to the period of the year, he thought it would be better to postpone the Committee to another Session.

IRELAND—LOANS TO LANDLORDS (RAYMUNTERDONEY, CO. DONEGAL).
MR. O'BRIENasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, What is the cause of the delay in furnishing the Return ordered by the House three months ago of loans to landholders in the parish of Raymunter-doney, county Donegal?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY: This is a Treasury matter; but the records of the House show that this Return was duly presented on the 9th of last month.

PAUPER LUNATICS-TRANSFERENCE FROM ASYLUMS TO WORKHOUSES.
MR. BRNTONasked the President of the Local Government Board the following questions with reference to the circular of January 22nd last, addressed by that Board to Boards of Guardians, proposing they should undertake to receive a certain class of pauper lunatics from asylums into workhouses on suitable conditions; as to the number of replies of a favourable character received from Boards of Guardians on this subject; and, how many Boards of Guardians have stated that they consider it absolutely undesirable to have such cases transferred to workhouses?
THE PRESIDENT: Sir, we have communicated with the Guardians of several

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Unions respecting cases of pauper lunatics in county lunatic asylums, who, as we were informed by the Commissioners in Lunacy, might, in the opinion of the medical superintendent of the asylum, be adequately and more economically provided for in the workhouse. The result of these communications is that, as regards 84 Unions, the answers have been that the Guardians were willing to receive the patients if they were returned to the workhouse. Prom 258 Unions we have received replies to the effect that the Guardians for various reasons were not prepared to receive the patients. In some cases the reason assigned was that the patients had been returned as dangerous since the report was made by the medical superintendent; in others, that the workhouse accommodation would not admit of their reception without much inconvenience; and in others, that if the patients were returned the Guardians would have to incur the expense of an additional officer. There were also 37 Unions in which the Guardians were favourable to receiving some of the numbers, but not others.

POOR LAW (IRELAND)—PHILIP DOYLE, POOR RATE COLLECTOR, TINAHELY PETTY SESSIONS.
MR. W. J. CORBETasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he will inquire into the case of poor rate collector Philip Doyle, against Richard Fenton, receiver under the Court of Chancery over the estate of Mrs. Courtney, heard at Tinahely Petty Sessions on the 1st instant; whether it is true that the presiding magistrate was induced by Dr. Toomey, the solicitor acting for Mrs. Courtney, to dismiss the case, on the grounds that the agent, Mr. Fenton, was not liable, and could not be sued for rates; whether Dr. Toomey, who acted for Mrs. Courtney, also acts as solicitor to the Board of Guardians; whether the Board were specially represented by a solicitor on that occasion; and, if not, why; and, whether the magistrate was justified in the action he took under the circumstances?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY: This and the two following Questions refer to alleged matters of fact, some of which appear to be beyond the province of the Government; but as to others, I shall probably be able to afford the hon. Mem-
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ber the information he desires if he will be good enough to allow me opportunity of making inquiry. As the Questions are on the Paper without Notice, I have not as yet been able to obtain information.
MR. W. J. CORBETgave Notice that he would ask the Questions on Monday.

NAVY—THE EVOLUTIONARY SQUADRON.
MR. A. F. EGERTONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, If he intends to lay upon the Table any Reports relative to the operations in Bantry Bay, carried on by the experimental squadron?
THE FIRST LORD: The Reports will not be for some time yet in our hands. I cannot give a promise as to any Papers I have not seen; but the purpose of the Admiralty is to give such Reports as may be interesting to the House, and not injurious to the Public Service.

EGYPT—THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK'S REPORTS.
MR. R. N. FOWLER (LORD MAYOR) (for Mr. ONSLOW)asked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If there is a Copy of the original Report of Lord Northbrook on Egyptian affairs at present in the Foreign Office; and, if so, whether Her Majesty's Government would consent to lay this upon the Table of the House in extenso?
THE UNDER SECRETARY: Lord Northbrook's administrative and financial Reports were confidential documents prepared for the use of the late Government, who presented to Parliament such portions of them as they considered desirable. These portions are given in "Egypt No. 4" and in "Egypt No. 15" of this year. A copy of these Reports in extenso exists in the Foreign Office; but Her Majesty's Government have no intention of laying them on the Table. Her Majesty's present Government have no knowledge whether any political Report was made by Lord Northbrook to the late Government.

PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (RETURNING OFFICERS) BILL.
MR. SYDNEY BUXTONasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether the Government would be prepared to accept Amendments on the Parliamentary Elections (Returning Officers) Bill,

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with, a view of placing the expenses of Returning Officers on the Consolidated Fund or on the Rates; and, whether, if he be unable to accept such Amendments, he will allow them to be discussed by the House and decided on their merits, or whether, in the event of the House accepting such Amendments, he will withdraw the Bill?
THE CHANCELLOR or THE EXCHEQUER: We neither could accept such Amendments as are suggested in the Question, nor proceed with the Bill if they were adopted by the House. The Bill deals with a very small matter, and I think the hon. Member and others might be disposed to waive the question in order to allow the Bill to become law this Session.

LAW AND JUSTICE—MRS. JEFFRIES'S CASE.
MR. W. FOWLERasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to the statements which have appeared in the public press, and particularly in The Sentinel for June 1885, with reference to the recent trial of Mrs. Jeffries at the Middlesex Sessions; whether it is true, as stated in that newspaper, that the judge, together with the counsel for the prosecution and defence, had a private interview before the prisoner was called upon to plead; whether, at the conclusion of that interview, the prisoner, by the direction of her counsel, pleaded guilty, and thereupon was sentenced to a nominal punishment of a fine of £200; and, whether the prisoner's counsel was informed at this private interview that, in the event of his client pleading guilty, the sentence would be one of a fine and not of imprisonment?
THE SECRETARY: I can only state that the facts as given in paragraphs 1 and 2 of the Question are correct; but the Judge who tried the case is at the present moment abroad on a holiday. I cannot, therefore, give any information having regard to paragraph No. 3.

SUPPLY—NAVY ESTIMATES.
In reply to Lord HENRY LENNOX,
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that he understood there was only one more Vote, and the Report would not be taken after half-past 12.

STREET TRAFFIC (METROPOLIS)—THE"PALL MALL GAZETTE"—OBJECTIONABLE ARTICLES — REVELATIONS OF GROSS IMMORALITIES.
MR. ALBERT GREY: I wish to ask the Home Secretary, Whether he has been informed that the street and footpaths leading to the offices of The Pall Mall Gazette are blocked in such a way as to prevent free and safe access to those offices; and, whether he will make arrangements to secure the dispersion of the crowd, so that safe and adequate access thereto may be obtained?
THE SECRETARY: I have had no information until I came to the House a few minutes ago that any such thing has taken place. The police, however, have the ordinary instructions to keep the streets clear, and they are bound to protect life and property and secure order and a free passage through the streets in this as in every other case.
MR. ALBERT GREY: Will the right hon. Gentleman order a sufficient number of police to go to Northumberland Street to insure that there should be a free passage, and to prevent any danger to life and property?
[No reply.]

NAVY—THE PAY OF HOBART PASHA.
In reply to Sir GEORGE CAMPBELL,
THE FIRST LORD OP THE ADMI RALTY (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON)said, that there was no probability of the introduction of a Supplementary Estimate to provide for the pay of Admiral Hobart-Hampden. He thought that such a small sum could be obtained out of the Supplies already granted.

RAILWAYS (ENGLAND AND WALES) —THE ACCIDENT ON THE FURNESS RAILWAY.
MR. T. C. THOMPSONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been called to an accident last Saturday on the Furness Railway, near Dalton, by which three boys were killed; and, whether proper protection is provided there to guard against danger?
THE SECRETARY: The Railway Company have reported the accident in question, and the Board of Trade have appointed one of the inspecting officers

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to hold an inquiry into the circumstances of the case. A copy of his Report can be presented if the hon. Member will be good enough to move for it.

THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)— RESIDENT MAGISTRATES.
MR. KENNYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If any rule or order at present exists against a resident magistrate holding in Ireland the position of land agent; and, if not, whether the Irish Government will consider the advisability of issuing such an order for the future guidance of persons acting as stipendiary magistrates?
THE CHIEF SECRETARY: There is no rule on this subject. I am not aware that any Resident Magistrate acts as a land agent; and I apprehend that it is very generally understood that no such arrangement would be permitted by the Government.

WAYS AND MEANS.—COMMITTEE.
WAYS AND MEANS — considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
THE CHANCELLOR or THE EXCHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH), in rising for the purpose of making a Financial Statement, and of moving a Resolution for raising a sum of money by an issue of Exchequer Bills or Treasury Bills, said: Sir Arthur Otway, it is not my intention to weary the Committee on this occasion with anything approaching to an exhaustive Financial Statement. That duty has been already performed by the right hon. Gentleman opposite the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Chil-ders); and anything I could say would merely be a repetition of the facts and figures which he very lucidly and fully placed before the Committee on the 30th of April last. Nor, Sir, have I the least intention of making to the Committee any proposals of a novel or startling character, although I am afraid that by not doing so I shall fail to meet some very sanguine expectations that appear to be entertained by many of my correspondents in the country. But I take it that, under the most favourable circumstances, it would be a very diffi-
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cult, if not an impossible, thing for a Chancellor of the Exchequer, in a few days, to frame a novel Budget in the first week of July; and that difficulty certainly is not lessened by the fact that I and my Colleagues, although we are called upon to provide for a very high expenditure, and an exceptional deficit, are ourselves in no way responsible either for that expenditure or that deficit. Sir, my duty to-day is a very humble one. It is merely to do the best I can to meet, during the present year, the legacy that has been bequeathed to us by our Predecessors. I hope I may, to some extent at any rate, receive the assent of the Committee to this proposition—that neither the time which it has been possible for me to devote to the consideration of this important subject, nor the circumstances in which we are now placed, would justify me in asking the Committee to accept any ambitious financial measure. It is not necessary for me to recall to the Committee the main features of the original Budget of the present year. But I may venture to remind them that on April 30 the late Chancellor of the Exchequer announced a deficit of about £2,800,000, including about £200,000 for Supplementary Estimates. That was after providing about £7,500,000 in increased taxation, and £4,670,000 by appropriating the Sinking Fund of such Terminable Annuities as were capable of being so dealt with; and he proposed that this, together with the deficit of £1,050,000 from the previous year, should be made good to such extent as might be necessary out of the Sinking Fund of the Terminable Annuities of 1886–7. Since that time the House has practically rejected, as the Committee are aware, the proposed increase of the Beer and Spirit Duties, the first Estimate of which amounted to £1,650,000, and the increased Succession Duty, estimated for the year at £200,000. The Revenue, therefore, as originally estimated by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, is decreased by £1,850,000; while, on the other hand, the right hon. Gentleman, on the 5th of June, gave to the House a calculation that £2,000,000 of the Vote of Credit of £11,000,000 would not be required, thus leaving a deficit of £2,650,000, instead of the deficit of £2,800,000 estimated by the right hon, Gentleman on April 30. On

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succeeding to Office, my first care was to make inquiry both, as to the prospects of the Revenue and of the Expenditure, especially and primarily, I may say, of the Vote of Credit. I will refer to that matter hereafter. As to the prospects of the Revenue, I think they are very much what was stated by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer to the Committee on the 30th of April last. Of course, I am not speaking of increased taxation. I do not think there is reason to expect any material variation in the receipts from Customs and Excise, taken together, from the Estimates which were stated by the right hon. Gentleman in April last. On the one hand, the Inland Revenue authorities state to me that they anticipate a diminution in the receipts from British spirits of about £150,000, owing to the disturbance in the trade, and also a small decrease of, I think, £40,000 on Railway Duty, owing to concessions made by the Board of Trade respecting urban traffic since their Estimate was framed. On the other hand, the Customs Estimate appears to me to have been very cautiously made; and, looking to the present favourable prospects of a good harvest, I think there is every reasonable ground for the anticipation that some increase here may be likely to make up for any loss on Excise. I therefore think we may fairly put one against the other. The Estimates of the other items of Revenue do not call for any special remark; and, of course, our first duty with regard to them has been to consider whether, in the circumstances I have stated, we should proceed with those proposals of the right hon. Gentleman, which still remained unaffected by the Vote of the House of Commons on the 8th of June. I may say, at once, that we have decided to proceed with those proposals; and if the Committee should accept the Resolution it will be my duty to propose as to Exchequer Bills or Treasury Bills, I intend afterwards to ask that such Resolutions as have already been adopted by the House should be read by the Clerk at the Table in order that I may found on them a Motion for leave to bring in a Bill embodying them. The Committee will see that, as the result of this, there would be levied, if Parliament sanctions this proposal, during the year, the following additional taxation
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proposed by the right hon. Gentleman:—2d. additional on the Income Tax, making 8d. in all; the Duty on corporate property; and the Stamp Duty on bonds and foreign securities payable to bearer. The right hon. Gentleman estimated to receive from all these sources £3,600,000. The proposed increase in the Succession Duty, which the right hon. Gentleman estimated at £200,000, and the increase of the Duty on spirits and beer, which, according to the last Estimate of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, would have produced £1,350,000, the Committee will remember have been practically rejected by the House of Commons. Now, Sir, I have considered very carefully whether it would be possible for me to propose any additional indirect taxation in the place of the £1,350,000 which has been lost to the Revenue by the rejection of these proposals. Such a proposition would, no doubt, be in complete accordance with the principle laid down by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers), when he said that the whole of the additional taxation which we have to raise on occasions when war, or active preparationsfor war, on a large scale come upon us, ought not to fall upon property; a declaration in which, as the Committee may possibly remember, I expressed at the time my entire concurrence. But, Sir, I hope the Committee may do me the honour also to remember that at the sametimo I expressed my very strongest sense of the extreme difficulty which the right hon. Gentleman, or any Chancellor of the Exchequer, must necessarily experience in times like the present in giving effect to this principle, owing to the very small number of articles still remaining on the list of our Customs Tariff. When times were more prosperous, of course the mere elasticity and ordinary growth of our receipts from Customs and Excise, in spite of the removal, one after another, of articles from the list, and the diminution in the amount of taxation levied on each, so kept up the Revenue that such a comparatively trifling addition to indirect taxation as £1,350,000 would have easily, so to speak. been provided to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of the day without any special increase of particular taxes. But the Committee are aware that the times in which we live are, unfortunately, very

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different. In such times as these it is, I fear, too true that, for the purposes of Revenue, we have arrived at the limits of increased taxation on the most important taxed articles of consumption, except, perhaps, one article only— namely, tea. If hon. Members opposite ask me whether I am going to propose an increased duty on tea, I have not the slightest difficulty in referring them to my speech on that subject in the debate upon the Budget. They will there find, if they will do me the honour to refer to it, that, after presenting fully to the House, to the best of my ability, what seemed to me to be the financial and economical reasons in favour of an increase of duty on tea, I intentionally and, as I think, completely demolished my own argument by a practical conclusion conveyed in a single sentence— namely, by stating my belief that such an additional duty would be so unpopular that Her Majesty 'slate Government could not propose it. Well, Sir, I can hardly see how the Committee can expect me to attempt what I admitted that a Minister so powerful and so popular as the right hon. Gentleman opposite, with all his power and support in the country, could not successfully carry through the House of Commons. Sir, I should like to ask the Committee how it was that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers), when searching for the means of obtaining some increased yield from indirect taxation, adopted a proposal so financially unsound as his scheme to increase the duties on beer and spirits? How was it that, with all his financial ability and experience, he tried to raise the rate of duty on articles the revenue from which is notoriously decreasing, for the sake of obtaining for the Exchequer an increased yield so small as to be utterly out of proportion to the percentage by which the tax was increased —and, more than that, I may say a yield which the Inland Revenue authorities now assure me would probably not have approached even the low estimate he had formed of it? Why, it was because even he, with all the time he had to consider this question, could find no other means of obtaining even the small amount he required. I am forced to believe that he would not have made such a proposal as to increase the duties on beer and spirits, if he had
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not been practically driven to it as the sole way of obtaining an increase from articles already subject to indirect taxation. I think I might plead this fact alone as sufficient proof of the extreme difficulty of carrying into effect the very proper and wholesome principles as to the relation between direct and indirect taxation which were propounded by the right hon. Gentleman in introducing his Budget. I confess, Sir, I do not myself believe that that principle can in times like these be carried into effect without the addition of some one or more articles to our Customs Tariff. Well, Sir, of course I have not omitted to examine very carefully more than one proposal for this purpose; and like other Chancellors of the Exchequer, I presume, I have been flooded with all sorts of proposals from all parts of the country, and nothing, I may say, can exceed the hostility of my correspondents to bicycles and tricycles. Such a problem is no easy matter to solve. It is not to be settled offhand, though there are many amateur financiers in the country who seem to think there is nothing simpler than to propose new subjects for indirect taxation. But I do not think the Committee of this House will be of that opinion; at any rate, I hope they will admit that I am not unreasonable in saying that I have not been able, in the short time that I have had at my command, even to satisfy myself as to the advisability of proposing taxes on any fresh article of consumption, and very much less have I been able to satisfy myself that I could make any such proposal with a reasonable expectation of securing for it the consent of the House of Commons. This I will venture to say—that I am very strongly of opinion that unless I entertained such a reasonable hope, it would be almost criminal on my part, or on the part of any Chancellor of the Exchequer, to make such a proposal at all. I am sure the trade and manufactures of this country have difficulties enough of their own to struggle with at the present time. We have no right to add to these difficulties by any further prolongation of the uncertainty, already unduly prolonged, as to the incidence of taxation for the current year. Even looking at it from a Revenue point of view, I may say that any disturbance of the general business of the country which would be

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caused by the prolongation of that uncertainty would be So injurious as to far more than counterbalance anything we should be likely to gain from an increase in indirect taxation, even if such a proposal were adopted—certainly for the nine months which are all that now remain of the present financial year. Therefore, Sir, I have not thought it consistent with my duty to make any proposal to the Committee for an increase in indirect taxation; and I hope that under the circumstances in which we are placed, although I am quite aware of the criticisms I am likely to receive, such a position may not be without some chance of securing the sympathy and support of a Committee of this House. Sir, I will frankly own to the Committee that in these circumstances, not being able, as I have stated, to propose any increase in indirect taxation, and finding myself, according to the latest Estimates of Expenditure stated by my Predecessor, with practically no greater deficit, in spite of the rejection of the increased taxation on beer and spirits proposed by him, than he had estimated for in his original Budget, I was strongly tempted to propose to the Committee such a reduction in the burdens of the payers of direct taxation as might in some measure correspond to the amount of relief given to the payers of indirect taxation by the vote of the House. But, Sir, there are two circumstances on this point which have weighed with me, and which I will state to the Committee. In the first place, though it is, no doubt, the fact that in the Budget, as it now stands, after the rejection of the proposed increase on spirits and beer, the Income Tax payer bears nearly the whole increased taxation, yet this does not entirely represent his position. I do not think his total burden this year — supposing the Income Tax to be placed at 8d. —relatively to the total amounts received by the Revenue from Customs and Excise, is greater than it certainly has been in some previous years. The Income Tax stands this year at 8d.; the Revenue from Customs is estimated at £20,000,000, and from Excise—excluding stamps, railway duty, and licences, which can hardly be called indirect taxation—the Revenue is estimated to amount to £22,400,000, making £42,400,000 in all. Therefore,
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we have an 8d. Income Tax on the one side, and £42,400,000 from Customs and Excise on the other. No doubt, if we only look to recent years, during which we have become accustomed to a low Income Tax, the rate this year may seem disproportionately high; but, if we look further back, the case bears a different aspect. Thus, in 1859–60, when the Income Tax was at 9d., the payments into the Exchequer from Customs and Excise, calculated on the same basis as I have taken for the current year, were only £42,765,000. In 1860–1, with a l0d. Income Tax, they were £42,529,000; and in 1861–2 they were £39,766,000, with a 9d. Income Tax. I am not arguing that the Income Tax payers in those years may not have had cause for complaint; much less do I express to the Committee an opinion that an attempt should not be made, at the earliest possible opportunity, to reduce the 8d. Income Tax to what may be called a more normal limit; but I merely quote these figures to show that the present state of things is not entirely without precedent. It was, I dare say, to a great extent justified in the years to which I have alluded, as I am afraid I must justify it now, by the simple but very cogent argument that we cannot do without the money. I have now, Sir, to state to the Committee a fact which I am sure the Committee will hear with considerable regret—nainely, that the expenditure in respect of the Vote of Credit of £11,000,000 can no longer be limited within the £9,000,000 stated on the 5th of June by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. The right hon. Gentleman, as the Committee will recollect, made on the 5th of June the following statement on this subject. He said:—
"I am able to say this—that if the state of affairs which lead Her Majesty's Government to ask for the Vote of Credit should present an aspect which would justify a cessation of further preparations, we anticipate that about £9,000,000 out of the total Vote of Credit of £11,000,000 will have been spent or incurred."—(3 Hansard, [298] 1337.)
Now, the very first day after I had the honour of entering upon Office, I made it my duty to inquire into this matter. I found that the opinion of the right hon. Gentleman had been based, of course, as it must have been based, on Estimates of money spent and liabilities actually incurred furnished to the late

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Government by the two spending De-partments—the War Office and Admiralty. On assuming Office, I lost not a day in inquiring into this matter. I was told at first that there was no reason to anticipate an excess over the £9,000,000; but when I prosecuted my inquiry further, I am sorry to say that I came to a very different conclusion. I wish to state the matter with extreme frankness to the Committee, because I think it is only right that I should do so. In the Estimates furnished to the late Government of £9,000,000, a sum of £6,200,000 was given by the War Office, and one of £2,800,000 by the Admiralty. Of the sum estimated by the War Office, a certain portion was due to the provision which had been authorized for the defence of our principal coaling stations and commercial harbours, an item for which, in spite of its great importance, and in spite of the pledges given by Parliament last December by the First Lord (the Earl of Northbrook) and the Secretary to the Admiralty (Sir Thomas Brassey), no provision had been made in the Army Estimates. Well, Sir, so far as I am able to learn, the War Office Estimate of £6,200,000, even after making an allowance for the prolongation of the state of uncertainty, and the additional expenditure that has resulted from it, is not likely to be materially exceeded. Of course, there may be an excess in some. matters; but there will probably be a saving in others, unless the present condition of emergency should be very considerably prolonged. I do not, therefore, estimate for any additional expenditure in that quarter. But I am sorry to say that the case is very different with regard to the Admiralty. The Committee will remember that I have stated £2,800,000 was estimated by the Admiralty on the 5th of June as covering their probable expenditure and liabilities up to that time. I fear this will be exceeded by no less than £850,000, including liabilities to the extent of £500,000, which, as far as my inquiries enable me to ascertain, were absolutely incurred at that date. I feel it my duty to place before the Committee the reasons for this, so far as I have been able to ascertain them. Out of the Estimate of £2,800,000, £1,000,000 was allowed for transports, besides a further sum for vessels taken up for ocean cruisers. Subsequently about £80,000
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was added to this before the defeat of the late Government, owing, no doubt, to the continuation of the unsettled state of foreign affairs. Since then, of course, further expenses have been incurred, due to the same cause; and for this no one can be blamed. But the grave fact which I have to bring before the Committee is that we have now discovered that the Estimate of £2,800,000 presented to the late Government at the time I have stated by the Admiralty, did not include all the liabilities that had been then incurred. So far as I have yet ascertained, the error was no less than £500,000. Now, Sir, I hope it will not be supposed that I blame the late Government collectively for this. One right hon. Gentleman, in particular, did his best to prevont it. In spite of the many and urgent affairs that must have distracted his attention at that moment, the late Prime Minister found time to put his finger on this very blot, and to represent to the Admiralty the urgent necessity for checking an expenditure which I must say, so far as I have yet been able to investigate the circumstances, appears to me to have been incurred with an absence of method and supervision, to say the least, which is far from creditable to such a Department as the Admiralty. I cannot at present say who is to blame; but Her Majesty's Government will devote their most earnest and careful attention to the matter. The result of our investigation so far is this —that although the Admiralty gave the late Government an Estimate of £2,800,000 at a certain date, yet they had, at that time, actually exceeded that Estimate by £500,000. I am sorry to say that this is not all. There is another very important matter. I said the Admiralty had exceeded their Estimate of £2,800,000 by no less than £850,000. That is not all due to the increased cost of transport. It is also due to the fact that—although, I think, quite rightly— provision was made in this £2,800,000 for building or purchasing 40 torpedo boats, the Admiralty actually omitted from that Estimate any provision whatever for furnishing those boats with torpedo gear, without which they would be absolutely useless. And now we are called upon to include in the Estimate of further expenditure to the extent of £850,000, a sum of £127,000 which it is abso-

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lutely necessary to add for torpedo gear. I do not mean to say that for all the increased expenditure of £850,000 the Admiralty can be blamed. That, of course, is not so; because the Committee will be aware that, owing to the prolongation of the uncertain state of foreign affairs, a necessarily increased cost has been incurred in keeping up transports, and for that the Department, of course, is not to be blamed. But taking the whole matter into view the result is that, owing partly to the continued uncertainty in foreign affairs, but mainly to the facts I have stated, I cannot, I am afraid, estimate that less than £850,000 will have to be added to the £9,000,000 stated by my Predecessor the right hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers), on June 5th, as the probable expenditure out of the Vote of Credit. I am afraid, Sir, that, under these circumstances, the Income Tax payer must bear as easily as he can the 8d. Income Tax originally proposed by the late Government; and the only question that remains is how the deficit is to be provided for. Now, the right hon. Gentleman opposite proposed to make it good to such extent as might be necessary out of the Sinking Fund of 1880–7, and took powers in the National Debt Bill for that purpose. Sir, I am not disposed to ask Parliament to adopt that course. I do not know that anyone has objected to the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman to suspend the Sinking Fund of these Terminable Annuities for the current year. That seems to me perfectly justifiable. I do not consider our Sinking Fund too large in times of prosperity and peace. I think it is quite right and proper that then we should do what we can to pay off in this way our National Debt. But when, in times like these, you have to make war, or make active preparations for war, on a considerable scale, to quote the words of the right hon. Gentleman, I think the Committee will be of opinion that it is not only justifiable, but right, to pause in that repayment of Debt. I propose to carry this principle in the current year rather further than my Predecessor had intended. He proposed to apply to the service of the year that part of certain Terminable Annuities which represents the principal to be repaid. That amounts, as the Committee will remember, to the sum of £4,672,000 during the current
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year, We propose to carry that principle a little further, and to apply it also to the New Sinking Fund. The right hon. Gentleman left intact the New Sinking Fund, which consists of the difference between the actual charge of the Debt and the fixed sum of somewhat more than £28,000,000 attributable to the service of the Debt. The Now Sinking Fund for the present year was estimated at £622,000; but I have to anticipate a charge for interest on the Exchequer or Treasury Bills, which I ask to-night the assent of the Committee to raise, and which, perhaps, may diminish it by some £36,000. I propose in the National Debt Bill to take power to appropriate the New Sinking Fund also to the service of the year. The deficit will then amount to £2,827,000, to which must be added the deficit of last year of £1,050,000, leaving an accumulated deficit in prospect of £3,877,000, supposing the expenditure on the Vote of Credit to be taken at £9,850,000, and supposing also that Parliament agrees to suspend the New Sinking Fund for the current year, as I have suggested. I have said that I do not propose to proceed with that part of the National Debt Bill which empowers the Chancellor of the Exchequer to appropriate the Sinking Fund of the year 1886–7. I confess that I do not think that we should now legislate for the Sinking Fund of next year. I think this is a matter which may properly be left to the new Parliament to deal with. I propose to ask the Committee to enable me to meet the deficit temporarily, as I have stated, by empowering me to issue Exchequer or Treasury Bills to the amount of not more than £4,000,000. I have placed in your hands, Sir Arthur Otway, a Resolution to that effect, and, of course, it will be necessary to make it the subject of a separate Bill. I should like, Sir, to add another statement on this matter. It is this. I ascertained that, owing to the fact that the repayments of loans to the Exchequer are, at the moment, in excess of the issues for loans from the Exchequer, the Exchequer balances on the 31st of March next are likely to be in a favourable position, and, of course, that has an important bearing on the proposals for the issue of Exchequer Bills. I do not think there is anything further with which I should occupy the attention of the Committee.

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There is nothing, as the Committee will have seen, of originality or novelty in the proposals I have made. I make them, not by any means as entirely satisfactory in themselves, not as proposals of the kind which I should hope, if I have the honour next year to occupy my present Office, to lay before the Committee, but as the best, as far as I can see, that can be made for dealing with the circumstances that are at present before us. They appear to me to meet the exigencies of our present situation with the least possible disturbance to the trade of the country and with due regard to the liberties of the future House of Commons.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, the Commissioners of Her Majesty's Treasury he authorised to raise any Sum not exceeding Four Million Pounds by an issue of Exchequer Bills or Treasury Bills."—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
MR. CHILDERS: I think it is a good rule, which has always been observed on occasions like the present, that we should not, at this moment, enter upon any controversial criticism of the financial proposals which have been developed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but that we should reserve our criticism until those proposals are embodied in a Bill which is brought to a second reading. I, therefore, will only make two remarks now on the statement of the Chancallor of the Exchequer, and I shall then proceed to ask him a few questions, reserving for another opportunity, when I shall have had time to consider his proposals, any further observations which it may be necessary to make upon them. The two remarks which I wish to make in reference to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman are these. In the first place, the Chancellor of the Exchequer said that he was not responsible for the deficit with which he had to deal. He is not responsible for the whole of it, but he is responsible for greatly increasing our deficit by moving a Resolution and adopting a policy which deprives him of a large amount of Ways and Means; so that his responsibility, if it is not complete for the whole deficit, clearly extends to a large amount of it. The other statement of the right hon. Gentleman to which I wish to address a word is this. He said that we had reached the limits
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of taxation on all taxed articles of consumption.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: On all important articles of consumption.
MR. CHILDERS: All important articles, except tea. That is a proposition on which, on a future occasion, I should like to address some remarks; but the right hon. Gentleman went on to justify that statement as to tea. He repeated his former argument that an increased duty on tea would be so unpopular that we did not dare to bring it forward, because we were so dependent on Radical teetotallers. Yes, Sir; but he did not say that that consideration influenced him, I think I am bound to say that I by no means admit the general proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that there were no articles of consumption upon which the duty might be increased. That is not my opinion, and it is not the opinion on which we framed the Budget. I am quite prepared, at the proper time, to discuss this question with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. So much for the two statements of the right hon. Gentleman on which I feel it my duty to offer passing remarks. And now, Sir, as to the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman, and the grounds on which he has based them, I wish to ask him for some information in order to make the matter clear. He estimates Customs and Excise together pretty nearly as I estimated them two months ago. As far as we can judge, from information which is in the possession of everybody, those Estimates are probably correct. But he says that since my statement, on the 5th of June, that out of the Vote of Credit of £11,000,000 probably only £9,000,000 would be required, he has ascertained that £9,000,000 will not be sufficient, because, although the Army Department accurately estimated what they had spent or incurred—namely, £6,200,000—the Admiralty was wrong in its Estimate of £2,800,000, and that to that amount a further sum of £850,000 will have to be added. That, of course, is a statement which has come upon me with great surprise, because, as he was good enough to admit, we had taken great care to verify the Estimates of the reduced expenditure. I spent some time going into the Estimates with my two Colleagues at the head of the Army and Navy

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Departments, and with Sir Reginald Welby, who was assisted by the two Accountants General, and we arrived, at the time, at the conclusion that £9,000,000 was the full Estimate of the expenditure. I hope that before the Committee concludes that we were in any way guilty of want of care in the discharge of this important duty, detailed information upon this matter will be given to the House. I should now like to ask the right hon. Gentleman a question or two, in reference to the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill, upon matters which are not of so much importance as that to which I have just referred. In the first place, the right hon. Gentleman said that while he is prepared to go on with the proposals in the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill in reference to the tax to be paid by Corporations and the tax on bonds payable to bearer, the two together producing, I think, £250,000, he does not propose to take up any of the clauses dealing with taxes on articles of consumption. But there is one of these clauses to which I should like to refer. We did not propose to alter the Wine Duties, but to take power to the Government to make a certain change in the superior limit of the lower rate of duty—that is to say, to raise that superior limit from 26 to 30 degrees alcoholic strength. I explained the object of that change in my Financial Statement. It was to enable us to complete the Treaty with Spain, which would be much to the advantage of the trade of this country. I should like to know if the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposes to give up that power? [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: Yes.] The right hon. Gentleman says "Yes," and that is an answer to my question; but, considering the large manufacturing interests concerned, and the Memorials from our Colonies in favour of the charge, it is a subject on which I shall have to make some remarks at a future stage. There is another matter about which I wish to ask a question. Does the Chancellor of the Exchequer propose to do what was hinted at by the noble Lord the Postmaster General (Lord John Manners) a day or two ago—namely, to abandon the proposals for cheap telegrams? If he does, I gather from the statement of the noble Lord that this would make some appreciable effect
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upon the Budget. In naming the amount of the deficit, has he made any allowance for that change? The Budget was framed on the minimum price of telegrams being reduced to 6d. on the 1st of August. If the telegrams are not reduced to 6d. on the 1st of August, there will be an increase in the Revenue, and, I hope, some diminished expenditure in favour of the Exchequer. If I am not mistaken, the two together would be favourable to the Buget of the year to the extent of something like £100,000. I think that, later, on we ought to have some explanation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this point. These are the only points of detail in reference to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's statement which occur to mo. I should be glad to know when the right hon. Gentleman proposes to take the second reading of the Bill? The whole matter is now well before the House and the country, so that no long time for consideration will be necessary. I will reserve till then such remarks as I may deem to be necessary upon the general financial proposals of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; but I repeat that, with the exception of the two or three questions I have asked, the Committee may now be satisfied with the clear statement which the right hon. Gentleman has made.
MR. W. FOWLERwished to ask for an explanation from the Chancellor of the Exchequer in regard to the exemption of corporate property from taxation. If he understood rightly, corporate property, as a whole, was now exempt in England. He had always failed to understand why it was exempt in England; and, although he had asked questions on the subject, he had not received any information upon it. The subject of exemptions was one that required careful consideration, as it was a large and difficult question, and he recommended it to the careful attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. If he were right, he thought the Ecclesiastical Commission would ray no duty under the Bill? ["No!"] Well, he was distinctly at variance with hon. Members on that point.
MR. H. H. FOWLERsaid, there was one part of the statement made by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he, for one, could not pass by. The right hon. Gentleman

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had laid down a certain principle and had introduced it into his Budget, which, he (Mr. Fowler) admitted, was perfectly consistent with the Resolution submitted to the House three weeks ago, but a principle to which he could not assent. It was one upon which he thought the judgment of the House ought to be taken, and he was quite sure that the judgment of the constituencies would be taken upon it, and that the judgment of the new Parliament would be clearly expressed. That principle was the practical exemption of real property from its fair share of Imperial taxation. He was quite aware that in the Eesolution moved by the right hon. Gentleman, three weeks ago, some stress was laid upon this point; but the strain of the debate went upon the imposition of direct taxation upon beer and spirits, and very little was said in reference to the taxation proposed to be levied upon real property. The history of this question was some what in teresting. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer was the first Gentleman occupying that position who, for something like 30 years, had proposed to deal with this exemption of real property from its fair share of the payment of duty on devolution by death. It was interesting to know that Mr. Pitt, when ho first introduced the Legacy Duty in this country, proposed that it should apply equally to real property and to personal property. In the speech which Mr. Pitt made on that occasion—and this was more than 100 years ago—he used these memorable words. He said "that if we were to protect property it was just and equitable that property should bear the burden." He asked hon. Gentlemen opposite to remember those words. It was not a Radical sentiment, not a sentiment put forward by the right hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain), but a sentiment uttered by Mr. Pitt—
"If we were to protect property it was just and equitable that property should bear the burden, and as it was in the nature of things that landed property was the most permanent it was just and fitting that it should contribute accordingly."
Mr. Pitt's Bill for the imposition of the Legacy Duty, therefore, applied equally to landed and personal property. But such was the powers of the landed interest, that Mr. Pitt was compelled to divide his proposal into two parts, one
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imposing a Legacy Duty upon personalty, and the other imposing a Legacy Duty upon realty. He carried the duty on personal property with great ease; but when he came to propose a duty upon real property, he only carried his Bill through Committee after repeated divisions and obstruction; and when he came to the third reading it was proposed to leave out the word "Now," and 48 voted for, and 46 against. As no words were proposed to be added at the end of the Question, Mr. Pitt proposed to add, "That it be read a third time tomorrow morning." The House divided again, when the numbers were 54 to 53; and Mr. Pitt then moved the Main Question, "That the Bill be read a third time to-morrow morning," when the votes were equal. Under those circumstances, he was compelled to abandon the measure; and from that time to this real property had not paid its fair share of the taxation of the country. There were three modes in which property was taxed in England. It was taxed upon its enjoyment, upon its transfer, and upon its devolution by death. Real and personal property stood on precisely the same footing in regard to taxation upon enjoyment. They paid the same amount of Income Tax and Property Tax. [An hon. MEMBER: "What about rates?] He would come to that question before he sat down; but as to the actual income derived from personal and real property, they paid the same amount of taxation upon enjoyment. With respect to transfer, the same duty of 10s. per cent was paid by each description of property. He would now ask the attention of the Committee to the present position of the law in reference to the duty payable on devolution by death, and he would ask the Committee to take an illustration which would show the practical working as well as the practical injustice of the present system. He would take the case of a father holding £50,000 in Consols, and having landed property also worth £50,000. The one produced an income of £1,500 a-year, and the other an income of the same amount. [A langh.] The hon. Member who laughed would have an opportunity of replying to him later on. He would repeat the statement. He maintained that £50,000 invested in Consols produced £1,500 a-year, and that landed property worth £50,000 also produced £1,500 a-year

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upon an ordinary rental of 3 per cent. [Interruption.] He was taking the rental at the worth of the property. It would only make it worse for the argument of hon. Members opposite if it was worth more. [An hon. MEMBER: It is worth less.] People did not buy real property now-a-days to pay less than 3 per cent. ["Oh!"] All he would say was that he read the details of the sales of real estates upon a very different principle. He would, however, put his illustration in another way—two properties each producing an income of £1,500 per annum; the personal property invested in Consols, and the real property in land. Well, if the father died and left the two properties to two sons—say, at the age of 45 or 46—the Chancellor of the Exchequer came down at once upon the man who succeeded to the Consols, and he had to pay £1,500 in the shape of duty. "What did the other son have to pay? He paid only on the capitalized value of an annuity of £1,500, which, taking his age at 45, was worth £20,600, and upon that £20, 600 he paid £206. And that payment was paid over four years. He was dealing with the matter as an abstract question of political economy, and he wanted to have an intelligent answer to the question, why the one class of property should be taxed at one rate, and the other at a totally different rate? He knew he should be told directly by several hon. Members that the answer to that question was that landed property, in addition to the ordinary claims upon it, paid an unfair share of local taxation, and that the smallness of the amount paid by real property to the Imperial Exchequer was owing to the excessive amount which it contributed towards local rates. He was not going to defend the present system of local taxation. He thought it was as bad as it possibly could be; but he believed that the heaviest and greatest injustice fell upon the large towns and the trading classes. But in reference to this question of land, what were the burdens upon land for the purpose of local rates? They were threefold—the poor rate, the burden of the highways, and the burden of what they might call social legislation laid on all descriptions of rateable property, such as school boards and the charges for sanitary purposes. The poor rate was a burden
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which every acre of land in this country had been subject to for the last 300 years. Landed property had been liable to poor rate ssince the Reign of Elizabeth. It had been sold subject to the payment of that burden, and there was the further fact, that the poor rate was not increasing but decreasing. It was a great deal less now than it was a few years ago, and it was gradually decreasing. He would give the Committee one or two figures, for it was impossible to argue a question of this sort without looking at the figures. The poor rate in 1856—the average poor rate on the real estate of this country— was 2s. 3d. in the pound, of which 1s. 8d. was applied purely to the relief of the poor. That was what he called a burden upon the land, against which the land had no right to complain, seeing that it had been bought subject to that burden. In 1856 the portion of the rate applied to the relief of the poor was, as he said, 1s. 8d. in the pound. Last year the entire poor rate, which included all sanitary purposes—school boards and various other burdens put upon the land, except the highways—was only 2s. in the pound, and only 1s. 2d. of that sum was levied with respect to the poor, so that the actual burden which land was legally subject to had, during the last 30 years, decreased something like 25 per cent. In 1871 the poor rate was 1s. 5½d., and it had been gradually going down every year since 1871, until, in 1883, the poor rate got to 1s. 2d. The following figures would show the steady decrease during recent years:—In 1871 the poor rate proper—he meant the rate devoted exclusively to the relief of the poor—was 1s. 5·6d., in 1872 1s. 5·6d., in 1873 1s. 4.9,d>., in 1874 1s. 4.4d., in 1875 1s. 3·5d., in 1876 1s. 2·8d., in 1877 1s. 2·3d., in 1878 1s. 2·4d., in 1879 1s. 2·3d., in 1880 1s. 2·4d., in 1881 1s. 2·3d., in 1882 1s. 2·1d., and in 1883 1s. 2·2d. Therefore, the figures he had given did not show an exceptional contrast, but the normal state of affairs, and they showed that the burden on real estate, with respect to the relief of the poor, was steadily decreasing. In reference to the highways, that was also a natural burden upon land; the land had always been called upon to repair the roads of the country. [An hon. MEMBER: NO!] An hon. Gentleman said "No!" He would like the hon. Gentleman to get

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up and try to convince the Committee that for centuries in this country the duty of keeping the highways in repair had not been a burden upon the land. [An hon. MEMBEE: No; Turnpikes!] The hon. Gentleman said "Turnpikes!" A turnpike was nothing more nor less than a highway, constructed for the convenience of the parishes through which it ran; and, because there was no fund out of which it could be constructed, the money was borrowed and tolls were levied to keep the roads in repair and to pay off the debts incurred in making them. What was the entire highway burden that fell upon the rural districts of England last year? Considerably under £2,000,000 was spent upon all the highways of the country, and out of that sum a solid contribution was made from the Consolidated Fund, so that all of the burden did not fall upon the land. He did not deny that there was an annual burden upon landed property, in reference to the third head; but it was a burden which was borne by every kind of property. He quite agreed that there had been a considerable increase in taxation for social improvements; but that increase was thrown upon the shops, the manufacturers, and therail-ways of the country, as well as upon property. The local rates paid by the landed gentry were not a different class of rates from those which were paid by other classes of the community. He would challenge anybody to dispute the statement that he had made—that the average local rates of this country amounted to a fraction over 3s. 3d in the pound. They were considerably under that amount in the rural districts; but in all the large towns they were considerably over that amount. As far as that point was concerned, he did not propose to trouble the Committee further, because he thought there was a still more important question behind all this, to which he wished to draw the attention of the Committee for a moment or two longer, and that was the disproportion which he humbly conceived to exist between real and personal property in contributing their fair share to the actual burdens of the country. On that question he joined issue with the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He maintained that industry in this country was over-taxed, and that property was under-taxed; that an unfair amount
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of taxation was levied on industry, and not an adequate amount on property. The figures which the right hon. Gentleman gave were clear enough in reference to the purpose for which he gave them; but he (Mr. Fowler) would like the Committee to understand the full strength of the position, and it was, therefore, necessary to take a few years beyond those which the right hon. Gentleman had alluded to. All the sensational talk which they had heard about £90,000,000 and £100,000,000 Budgets, and so on, partook a great deal of the nature of clap-trap. This country carried on two very large businesses in regard to the Post Office and Telegraphs, and the larger the expenditure the larger would be the income and profit. It also carried on a large banking business in reference to loans, for public works and other purposes, and the larger the amount obtained so much the better for the country, as the profit and income were larger in proportion. He was not going to underrate the burdens actually borne; but in raising taxation they had to deal with the burdens of the people. What was the amount of taxation raised? He did not wish to make his remarks of a Party character, and he would go no further back than the taxation imposed by the late Government in the year 1880. The income raised by taxation in that year was nearly £67,000,000, of which amount the sum of £44,500,000 was raised by OustomsandExcise,andonly£22,500,000 by Property, Income Tax, Stamps, and Death Duties. In 1881 the amount of taxation raised was £68,824,000, and the proportions were £44,484,000 and £24,340,000. In 1882 £46,527,000 were were raised by Customs and Excise, and under £24,000,000 by Property. In 1883 £46,500,000 were derived from articles of consumption, and £26,500,000 from property, and in the year just closed £46,653,000 were raised from Customs and Excise, and £25,000,000 only from Property and Income Tax. It was a very difficult question to say what proportion of taxes on articles of consumption was paid, he would not say by the working classes, but by the industrial classes. The use of the words "working classes" was a mistake, because, although the burden of taxation was oppressive on those who got their living by weekly wages, yet if there

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was a class upon which taxation fell more heavily than any other it was the lower sections of the middle-class people, who had no property—men who obtained their living by their brains and industry —the curate, the Nonconformist minister, the poor professional man, the doctor, the clerk, whose incomes ran from £200 up to £500, and in whose case the expenditure of each 1s. had to be watched. In the case of the lower middle-class, an increase of taxation meant a positive deprivation of some family comfort or enjoyment or other. In fact, that class felt the burden of taxation more than any class of the community. Therefore, in adjusting taxation accurately, the contribution of the industrial classes should be taken into account. Some years ago, Professor Leone Levi, after the Census of 1861, was of opinion that two-thirds of the population of the country belonged to the working classes —the working classes in that case meaning the working classes pure and simple —and one-third to the class above them. Those figures had been materially altered during the last quarter of a century. There had been an enormous increase in the consumption of taxable articles, the bulk of which had no doubt been consumed by the industrial classes. He thought that the amount of rent paid was a reliable indication of the proportion of classes. In England alone they had something like6,000,000 dwelling-houses; 3,000,000 of those dwelling-houses were under £10 a-year rent; 750,000 were between £10 and £15 a year; and 500,000 between £15 and £20 a-year. Therefore, out of the entire number of 6,000,000 houses, 4,250,000 were inhabited by people who could not afford to pay £20 a-year rent. That, he thought, was an indication of the number and extent of the industrial classes. If they extended the figures to Ireland and Scotland, the proportions were still greater. Therefore, what he ventured to submit to the Committee was this—that at least five-sixths of the people of this country belonged to the class to whom he was alluding, and it was admitted by statisticians that the average consumption per head was the same in regard to all the principal taxed articles. The argument which he adduced, then, was that five-sixths of the taxation on articles of consumption was paid by the
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industrial classes, and one-sixth only by the well-to-do and propertied classes. If that were so, out of £46,000,000 raised by Customs and Excise, more than £38,000,000 were contributed by the industrial classes, and scarcely £8,000,000 by the propertied classes. In adjusting taxation, they should consider not only the amount put upon each man's back, but the strength of the man's back to bear it, because by one class the burden must be felt far more heavily than by another. Without going into the question of a graduated Income Tax, he submitted that in adjusting the due ratio of taxation between direct and indirect taxation—between property and industry—they were bound to give the advantage to industry, because it did not possess that reserve fund to fall back upon which the propertied classes possessed. By those who lived by industry every tax upon that industry was most acutely felt, while in the case of the propertied classes it could only affect their luxuries, and it rarely affected even them. The conclusion he drew was this—while he did not challenge the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, as there was probably no other course open to the right hon. Gentleman in the circumstances in which he was placed, and without impugning the principles of finance which had guided him, he wanted to reserve the principle that, as between real and personal property, real property did not pay its fair share of Imperial taxation, and that, as between property and industry, the industry of this country paid an unfair share. He exceedingly rejoiced that the articles on which direct taxation was placed had been so reduced that no Chancellor of the Exchequer would hardly venture again to propose an increase. He believed that, in their future fiscal system, the industry of the country would have to be relieved to a greater extent than it had hitherto been, and property would, as Mr. Pitt said, have to bear a larger burden for the discharge of duties which properly belonged to it.
SIR BALDWYN LEIGHTONsaid, he was not going to follow the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) through all his facts and figures. He would only say, with all deference to the hon. Gentleman, that he had never heard in so short a speech

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such a tissue of fallacies as that to which the Committee had just listened. The facts were all wrong, and the conclusions drawn from them altogether erroneous. Of course, the hon. Gentleman had come down to the Committee thoroughly prepared to make this speech. Unfortunately he (Sir Baldwyn Leighton) did not happen to be prepared, for he had come down not intending to speak at all. At the same time, he was quite prepared to pit his memory against the figures which the hon. Member had laid before the Committee. What was it that the hon. Member said about the rates? He believed he was able to quote the figures of the hon. Member correctly. He had told the Committee that, in 185G, the rates amounted to 2*. 2d. in the pound, of which 1s. 8d. was for poor rate, and that in 1871 they had been reduced to 2s., of which 1s. 2d. was for poor rate. Now, they had the book of the right hon. Member for Ripon (Mr. Goschen) upon this subject, which might be regarded, so to speak, as a text book; and it would be found that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) had commenced with a false principle, by mixing up the counties and the boroughs. The right hon. Member for Ripon showed that the poor rate in the rural parishes was 2s. 5d., and since that date they had had the cost of maintaining the turnpikes and the sanitary rates thrown upon them. Those two charges amounted to not less than 6d. in the pound, bringing up the total burden to 2s. 11d.; and in addition they were maintaining schools without levying a rate, which, if they were maintained by rate, would amount probably to 1d. more, making the total amount 3s. in the pound.
MR. H. H. FOWLERwished to explain that he had drawn a distinction between the poor rate and the other local burdens. He had said that the poor rate was 2s. in the pound; but, with other rates in addition, the total might be raised to 3s. or 3s. 3d.
SIR BALDWYN LEIGHTONbegged the hon. Gentleman's pardon. He had understood him to allude only to the poor rate. The hon. Gentleman now admitted that the rates amounted to 3s. in the pound in the rural parishes; but although the hon. Member said that the average rate all over England was 3s. in the boroughs, it was from 4s. 6d. to 5s., and sometimes as high as 6s. Some
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of the burdens borne by the land had been altogether ignored by the hon. Gentleman; and he (Sir Baldwyn Leigh-ton) would endeavour to point out what they were. First of all, the hon. Member had fallen into the mistake of saying that this was a tax upon property. His (Sir Baldwyn Leighton's) contention was that local rates were a tax upon labour. The same fallacy had been put forward by the right hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. John Bright) and by the right hon. Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. Gladstone); but the contention on that side of the House was that those rates which fell upon the small farmer in the rural parishes, and upon the unskilled labourer in the towns, was a tax upon labour. That was their position, and from that position they were not disposed to give way. It was the whole difference between them. He maintained that it was not a tax upon property, but a tax upon labour; whereas the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) contended that it was imposed as a tax upon property. He asked the Committee to bear with him while he endeavoured to point out what the burdens were which really did fall upon property, and especially landed property. And here ho would say that he and his Friends wore quite ready for re-adjustment, and that, in fact, they asked for it. It was because they wanted re-adjustment that they had called attention to those things over and over again. First of all, he would take the Land Tax. It was supposed to be a tax upon land; but it was nothing of the kind. Originally, it was an Income Tax put on in the time of William and Mary in 1693; and if hon. Members would refer to the Act which imposed it, they would find that it was levied on all incomes. Land only slipped in, and the principle of the tax was that it should be a tax on incomes. Those £2,000,000 a-year, originally levied on all kinds of property, were now only levied upon land. [An hon. MEMBER: It is only £1,000,000.] He was aware that it appeared to be only £1,000,000; but really it was £2,000,000, because there was £1,000,000 which had been redeemed, and which must be reckoned. Then there was the House Tax, which, he believed, was about £1,800,000 or £2,000,000 more. There was also the rates, which were allowed by the hon.

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Gentleman to be 3s. in the pound. The hon. Member said that they had been imposed on the land since the time of Elizabeth; but, in point of fact, it was only in 1836 that those rates were imposed on the land and made perpetual. The poor rate was levied on all property in the time of Elizabeth. The hon. Member talked about the great reduction of rates which had taken place since the time of Mr. Pitt. In the time of Mr. Pitt, rates were only ponce in the pound; they were now shillings. They had doubled and trebled since the time of Mr. Pitt, 100 years ago. The hon. Member would appear not to have read history, or, if he had, not to understand it. Then they had the tithes also. The hon. Member was, perhaps, not aware that the tithes were put on by Henry IV.; that they were originally for the support of the poor, and a tax upon income, but were now a charge upon land. Then, again, there was the cost of prosecutions, and Schedule A and Schedule D of the Income Tax were raised on the land. If they went into those matters at all, they must go into the whole of them, and that was why those who were interested in the land asked for a re-adjustment of the whole matter. It was, unfortunately, the habit of those who were constantly bringing those questions forward to forget, or to pass over, all the other incidence of taxation and the injustice which property complained of. For instance, in the illustration which the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) gave of the two sons—one inheriting £1,500 a-year from Consols, and the other £1,500 a-year in land—he omitted to take into consideration the fact that the Land Tax had to be deducted from the latter, and that it was not paid by personal property at all. That was an important element to be considered. In the time of Elizabeth, William and Mary, and still later, land represented the principal property of the country. The population was at that time from 5,000,000 to 10,000,000. The value of land had increased comparatively very little. About £150,000,000 represented the assessment value of land, whereas £1,200,000,000 represented the assessment value of personal property, which did not exist in the time of Elizabeth, or William and Mary, and hardly existed at the commencement of the present
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century. Those were only a few of the facts of the case. He would not take up the time of the Committee by going into the matter further; and ho had only ventured to offer those observations, in order to show the utter fallacy of the arguments which had been put forward by the hon. Gentleman.
MR. CAINEsaid he was sorry he was not in the House when the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke of that portion of the Vote of Credit which appertained to the Navy. If ho rightly understood the right hon. Gentleman, he had stated that the Estimate of money expended, or liabilities incurred, which were given to the Treasury by the late Board of Admiralty amounted to £2,800,000; but he now found that the Estimate showed an excess of £850,000.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I said that, as far as I could understand in the short time I had been in Office, liabilities to the extent of £500,000 had been incurred before that Estimate was furnished by the Admiralty, which were not included in it. I endeavoured to communicate with the late Secretary to the Admiralty (Sir Thomas Brassey) on the subject, in order that ho might be here; but I found that I was too late, and that he is out of town.
MR. CAINEsaid he was sorry that the late Secretary to the Admiralty was not in his place; but in reply to the right hon. Gentleman, although he had not been aware that it was intended to make the statement, ho would say that their information was carefully collected by the late Admiralty from all the Departments; that the Estimates were carefully prepared, and that they were believed at the time to be fair and proper Estimates. He was not greatly surprised, himself, at the assertion of the right hon. Gentleman that there was an excess on the Estimates. It should be remembered, as the Committee knew very well, that it was the Executive which regulated this matter, and that they had not relaxed their preparations for war during the time the late Government held Office; that the mercantile cruisers they had to purchase were in distant parts of the world; and, under such circumstances, it was not easy to estimate what they would cost. The right hon. Gentleman had also referred to the fact that, although the late

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Government had ordered a considerable number of torpedo boats, they had ordered no torpedo gear, and, therefore, it was assumed that the boats were use? less. He might inform the right hon. Gentleman that this torpedo gear was deliberately omitted. The immediate object for which those boats were ordered was not the firing of torpedoes, but to be fitted up with quick firing guns. It was not considered necessary, therefore, to provide the boats with torpedoes at that time. If the right hon. Gentleman knew what a torpedo boat was, he would know that it was impossible to hit them with torpedoes. It was intended, no doubt, that torpedo fittings should ultimately be put in, and that they should be eventually fitted for torpedo service; but the immediate object the Board of Admiralty had in view was that they should act as torpedo catchers in defence of their Fleet, and not for the purpose of firing torpedoes at the enemy. The real question, however, was this—Did the right hon. Gentleman think that the late Board of Admiralty had spent money unwisely and unprofitably? Because, unless that charge were made out, it was not a serious matter to make an error in so difficult a subject as the calculations of the cost of securing transports, and the fitting out of merchant cruisers, which latter was entirely a new experience to the Admiralty officials.
MR. GRANTHAMsaid, he did not know what view the country would take of the statement which had just been made by the hon. Member for Scarborough (Mr. Caine), who appeared to consider an error of £500,000 to be of no importance at all. He thought the statement of the hon. Gentleman showed that no very great care could have been exercised on the part of those who had presented the Estimates to the House. It was a remarkable fact that the Estimates framed by the other side were invariably exceeded, and that it became necessary to present Extraordinary Estimates for additional money which it was subsequently found necessary to spend. He had not risen, however, for the purpose of commenting upon the points at issue between the hon. Member for Scarborough (Mr. Caine), the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and the late Secretary to the Admiralty (Sir Thomas Brassey). He had not been in the
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House during the early part of the discussion, and had not, therefore, heard the remarks which gave rise to it. His object in rising was to continue, if he might be allowed to do so, the discussion which had been raised upon the question of local taxation. They were indebted very much to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) for the figures he had given them, and the speech he had made, because there could be no doubt that it was a very important question; and if there was any foundation for the assertion as to the partial exemption of land from the charges imposed on personal property, he could quite understand the feeling of dissatisfaction that one class in the country should be treated more favourably than another in reference to taxation. He could not go so far as the hon. Baronet the Member for South Shropshire (Sir Baldwyn Leighton) in saying that the facts which had been stated were altogether fallacious; but he would congratulate the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler), if he had been a purchaser of land, that he was able to obtain it at prices at which people in the South of England certainly were unable to purchase. He himself had been guilty of the extravagance of occasionally buying land; but he had never yet been able to purchase land at a price to pay 3 per cent. He accepted the figures of the hon. Member with the greatest pleasure, because he believed he should be able to show from the illustration which the hon. Member had given that the owners of real property were treated with injustice. Now, taking the case of two persons inheriting, the one £50,000 in land, the other £50,000 in Consols; from the income in land the one would not get more than £1,000 a-year, but from Consols the other would get £1,500. It was impossible to take the income derived from £50,000 invested in land at anything like £1,500 a-year. H would illustrate that, with the permission of the Committee, by pursuing the case put by the hon. Gentleman opposite, and he would take 30 years as the period during which two persons— sons—would enjoy the respective properties. At the end of 30 years there would be a great difference between the value received from the properties which would have to bear their share of the Death Duties. The son inheriting the

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land would have lost £500 for 30 years, or £15,000 would have been taken from the sum he would otherwise have received. The son who inherited Consols would only have to pay 1 per cent Legacy Duty on the amount, whereas the son of the person who had real property would have been mulcted of £15,000; in other words, in the case of two sons inheriting estates apparently of similar value, one of them would, at the end of 30 years, have paid 10 times as much as the other. Ho thought that would show the fallacy, he would not say which his hon. Friend alone had put forward, but the fallacy of those hon. Gentlemen who said that those who were the owners of landed estates were taxed at a much less rate than those who owned personal property. His hon. Friend had also stated that land had, since the days of Elizabeth, been always bought and sold subject to the poor rate. But the Committee would be aware that the rental of land was very different now from what it was in those days. [Opposition cheers] He thought he should catch hon. Q-entlemon opposite with that statement. But what was the increased rental derived from? It was not the result of allowing the land to remain idle—the unearned increment as it was called by some; but it arose from the money actually spent upon the estate. [A laugh.] The late Vice President of the Council of Education (Mr. Mundella) laughed at that; but he was not surprised that the right hon Gentleman was so ready to show his ignorance of the matter. Speaking from experience, he knew that if those who had land wanted to get any return at all from it, they would be obliged constantly to spend money on their estate. He knew of a farm which did not return him the money he had laid out upon it. The Committee would perhaps excuse him for alluding to a personal matter, by saying that he could give chapter and verse to show that there were farms from which the owners were not receiving a farthing profit. He was not a large landowner, hut he had a farm on which ho was not receiving a farthing of rent or anything for the money he had expended upon it; and so it was throughout the length and breadth of the land. Take the case of the estates of a noble Lord in Norfolk and Suffolk, the rental of which had
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been largely increased by expending money on them; and therefore it would be seen that the poor rate, inherited from the days of Queen Elizabeth, as his hon. Friend said, was charged not upon the unearned increment, but upon the money actually laid out upon farms—which he wished to point out to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton was practically the same thing for this argument as if the property had been sold and changed hands. He hoped he had made it somewhat clearer to hon. Gentlemen opposite, that there was some reason for the difference always made between real and personal property in the incidence of taxation. At the time referred to by the hon. Member for "Wolverhampton, personal property in this country was a mere bagatelle; but it had enormously increased; whereas real property had increased nothing like so much in value, and its increase had been, as he had shown, derived from the money spent upon it, and not from the causes imagined by hon. Gentlemen opposite. Again, he said it was a fallacy to say that the income from the tolls was always devoted to paying off debt; the income of the roads from the old turnpikes was for maintaining the roads, and it was the surplus only that went to the payment of debt. The highways, a portion of the cost of which had always been borne by the land, were now called the main roads of the country, and were for the benefit generally of landowners, farmers, and others living in the localities, whose locomotion was not required to be so rapid as that of the class he represented. It was when the railways had been made that the tolls ceased. [Mr. H. H. FOWLER: When the railways paid.] He was speaking of the turnpikes. One would suppose from what had been said that the money that used to be paid for their carriages went simply to pay off debt; but he had shown that was not so—it went partly to maintain the roads; but after that, there was not sufficient to pay off debt. Having been obliged to differ in toto with a great deal which the hon. Member for Wolverhampton had stated, he would say that there was one part of his speech in which he entirely concurred with him, and that was where he said that that portion of the community whom he described as the industrial

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middle class paid a greater amount of taxation than the owners of property. That was perfectly true; hut the hon. Member for Wolverhampton appeared to have forgotten that the class he referred to were much more numerous than the class who owned property. The amount which the former paid, although greater in the aggregate, was spread over a larger area, and was nothing like so large relatively as that paid by the latter. He was glad that the hon. Member for Wolverhampton had referred to that particular class as suffering more than any other from direct taxation—that was to say, the class composed of professional men, clerks and curates, because it was a great pleasure to remind the country that it was owing to the Chancellor of the Exchequer of a Conservative Government that a considerable concession had been made in favour of that very class, either by taking off the Income Tax altogether, or by reducing it considerably on incomes under £400 a-year. They had to thank the Conservatives for that; and if it had not been for them the class in question would have been punished as their friends had tried to punish them. Then there was another point to which he would refer. He had seen many statements to the effect that a great deal of the land of the country paid no Land Tax; but he pointed out that nearly £1,000,000 had been redeemed. As far as the land was concerned, no doubt there was only about one-half of it under the Land Tax for the reason stated; but, notwithstanding that, there were many who cried out—"Here is a large portion of the land paying no taxation at all," and they called on Members of Parliament to endeavour to get that land taxed. All he could say was that he paid 4s. an acre for land taxation; and the hard part of it was that when land was bought, they could not treat the Land Tax as they could treat the poor rate and tithe—they had to buy the estate nominally free from Land Tax, the auctioneer not being bound to say whether there was any Land Tax or not. The result was that, as in his own case, land was bought at a price as if it were free from Land Tax, whereas it was paid as a direct tax by the person who purchased the estate. Another consideration, which was apt to
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be forgotten when people were dealing with the question of taxation of land as compared with the taxation of personal property, was this—if a person had £50,000 left to him, he was taxed to the extent of £500 or £1,000, which amount he could obtain at once by simply selling Stock without prejudicing the whole amount. But with regard to real property the case was entirely different; to raise the tax upon real property by selling a portion of it was like chipping off a portion of a piece of valuable china — the whole suffered by it. The person who had to pay Succession Duty on land, and who had nothing but land, would have to sell or mortgage a portion of his land to raise the money, and in that way persons who owned land were punished. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton had said that there were 4,500,000 houses of a rental of £20 and under— that there were 500,000 of a rental of between £15 and £20. But he (Mr. Grantham) pointed out that those were the houses of the class who were punished most. Those people bought their houses, which, at 20 years' purchase, would be worth £400. But how could they pay Succession Duty? Were they to sell their houses? Perhaps houses in the district were a drug in the market, and they could not sell them. The result would be that a man in that position would have to mortgage his property to raise the duty. But if that was the case with small householders, it was, if possible, still worse with the small landowners, whom the right hon. Gentleman opposite and his supporters were so anxious to see increase in this country. Take the case of a man who was left 20 acoss of land; how was he to raise the money for the duty, seeing that he wanted every farthing he could get for cultivating the farm? He believed that all who went into this question honestly would see that there was a good foundation for the difference in the incidence of taxation, especially as between those who inherited a small amount of Consols, as he preferred to call it, on the one hand, and those who inherited small estates in land. If the views of hon. Gentlemen opposite were carried out, the owners of real property, in the shape of houses of £20 a-year, would suffer in the way he had described; and they would, moreover, affect the small landowners, whose number they desired to see in-

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crease. For his own part, he would like to see the number of small landowners doubled, because he believed it would be for the good of the country; but he did not think it would be for their own advantage if they were to be taxed in the way hon. Gentlemen opposite proposed. In conclusion, he thanked the Committee for the attention with which they had listened to his remarks, which were quite unprepared, and arose solely on the speech of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton; and he trusted that before the next Election took place hon. Members would have taken more trouble to find out what were the real merits of the case.
MR. ALDERMAN W. LAWBENCEsaid, he thought the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Grantham) had proved most satisfactorily to himself—he did not know whether he had to the Committee— that if a man had a large property in land it would be difficult for him to find the money to pay the tax on the estate, because he wanted the whole of his money and income to keep up the land. The argument of the hon. and learned Gentleman applied in the same way to small properties in land. It seemed to him (Mr. Alderman Lawrence) that the Budget of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was just the Budget that might have been expected he would introduce to the Committee, and he thought it might be looked upon as a provisional Budget of a provisional Chancellor of the Exchequer of a provisional Government; and looking at it in that light they would receive it without objection, and he believed it would be so regarded by the country. Hon. Gentlemen opposite made an excuse by saying that the local taxation of the country had been improperly levied, and that, therefore, they ought at all times to have an improper Budget to make up the amount of Imperial taxation. For his own part, he thought that when a blot was pointed out with reference to Imperial taxation, that blot ought to be removed, and that local taxation should be relieved when there was an opportunity of doing so; but he contended that when they were trying to remedy any injustice it was no answer to say—"Oh, we cannot remedy this injustice until something else is done with respect to local taxation." He thought that for a number of years, in
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every Parliament, that principle had been carried too far. They were always saying—"Before we can remedy that evil we must alter local taxation, and before we can do that we must remedy something else," and so they went round the circle. He thought that no case had been made out for allowing real property, any more than leasehold property, to escape its just share of taxation; and he could give an instance of injustice in the case of the large estates in this Metropolis. There were large estates, those belonging to aristocratic owners and to Companies, and to individuals, let on long building leases, on which buildings had been erected and great interest created in connection with them; and yet, although largo portions of the original leases had expired, the value of the leases was as great as before. When the owner of a leasehold house died, the property passed by will or devolution, and the successor would have to pay both Probate and Succession Duty. But at the end of, say, 40 years, the leases would fall in, and the owner of the freehold would let the houses for terms of 21 years, at rack rentals, and the Government of the day would thenceforward receive nothing more from the devolution of the leases. He asked the Committee whether it was fair that when this leasehold property devolved on the ground landlord the Imperial Exchequer should receive no further tax from it? The difference between the amount paid by the leaseholders during their terms and that which the ground landlord would have afterwards to pay in respect of the property would be enormous. Supposing that a leasehold house and a freehold house adjoining each other were left severally to two sons; the son who received the leasehold property would have to pay Probate Duty on the full value of the house, and also Succession Duty according to the value of his life; but the son who had the freehold house would simply have to pay Succession Duty. That was an arrangement that was neither fair nor equitable, and there was nothing whatever to justify it. That question had been debated year after year; and although there was no answer to the argument ho had put forward, every Chancellor of the Exchequer had shrunk from proposing a remedy for the removal of that injustice. He admitted

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that the incidence of local taxation required re-adjustment. The owners in the Metropolis who had let their property on lease had done so on condition that the tenant paid all the taxes. Since the leases were granted taxation had risen to a large amount; but the owners of the property did not contribute one farthing towards it—the occupiers had to pay the whole. He maintained that that was strictly unfair, because very often the occupiers had to pay taxation for the improvements of the neighbourhood, owing to which improvements they would, at the termination of their leases, be required to pay additional rent for renewals. He was rather surprised, although he did not regret, that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, although he had struck out the payment to the full amount of Probate Duty on freehold property in the manner suggested by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, had adopted that part of his Predecessor's Budget which had reference to the taxing of corporate property. When the proposal was made by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer he (Mr. Alderman Lawrence), as the Representative of many who had to do with corporate property—Livery Companies and others—said that corporate bodies never objected to have their property taxed in lieu of Succession Duties. While adopting that part of the Budget introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers), the Chancellor of the Exchequer had let slip the question of the devolution of freehold property both in houses and land. He (Mr. Alderman Lawrence) thought that the very levying of a tax upon corporate property would be a lever to be used for bringing freehold property to pay its fair share of taxation when it devolved by death. It was very ingenious of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for East Surrey (Mr. Grantham) to argue that there was a large number of houses in the country so small that it was impossible for anyone succeeding to them to pay anything in the way of Devolution Duty. But those houses, or the great majority of them, were leasehold, and were owned by the large landed proprietors. Whoever succeeded, the houses had to pay Probate Duty upon the full value, whatever it might
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be. It was not his wish to detain the Committee longer on this question. It was a large question, and one which was much better understood in the country than it was formerly. He was convinced the people would soon be found asking why freehold house property and freehold land property should escape the taxation when they devolved by death any more than leasehold property. The only reason why it had escaped taxation so long was that those who were chiefly interested in that description of property had great power and influence in both Houses of Parliament. He did not anticipate that the Budget of the Chancellor of the Exchequer would meet with any opposition. He had considered it his duty to make those remarks, holding, as he did, the opinion that great injustice was done by the manner in which leasehold property was treated in comparison with freehold property.
MR. R. H. PAGETsaid, the Committee were indebted to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) for firing off his torpedo, which, although entirely unexpected, had been very successful. The hon. Gentleman was essentially fair; he would not put before the Committee any figures or statements which he did not feel he was thoroughly justified in putting forward; and if anyone was in a position to show him that he had made statements which were not to be supported, he would withdraw from the position he had taken up. Now, he wished to point out to the hon. Gentleman that he had entirely omitted to take notice of that which exhibited a large amount of taxation on real property as compared with personalty. The first thing the hon. Gentleman omitted to notice was that the Income Tax was levied on the gross rental in all cases of real property, that gross rental by no means representing the net rental, but being a sum largely in excess of it. To entirely omit such a fact as that could not be considered a fair proceeding, unless, as he had no doubt, it was in this case an accidental omission. The hon. Member would see that in estimating the difference of the burdens which fell on real property as compared with. personal property he would arrive at an entirely fallacious conclusion, unless he noticed the injury which was done

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directly to real property by the levying of the Income Tax on the gross value. Again-, it was constantly said that houses must be provided for the labouring classes. He would like to ask the hon. Gentleman if he had taken the slightest trouble to ascertain what was the amount spent by landlords in erecting labourers' cottages? How many thousands and tens and hundreds of thousands of pounds were spent in that way, and with what result? Landlords took money from the funds, or from various investments in stocks or shares, where it was liable to no rating, to employ it in the fulfilment of what they were told was one of their highest duties, and then it became liable to rating. Was it fair to omit such a fact when a comparison was being made between the taxation on real and personal property? Then they were told that it was well that the number of independent owners of land should be increased; that they should resuscitate that great and independent race which he regretted had so much disappeared —the yeoman farmers. But how was the yeoman farmer to continue to exist, even if they were to bring him into possession by unnatural and artificial means, in the face of a severe, an unfair, and a crushing burden of taxation? There was another argument of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton which ought to be met, and it was that the burden of the poor rate was imposed on land so long ago that it was now no burden at all. What did that argument lead to? The burden of the highway rate had been imposed for a certain number of years. If the owners of the land could manage to pay their proportion of the rate for a century, was it to be said that the rate was no longer a burden on the land? The education rate was recently imposed. If it remained as a burden on the land for 50 or 100 years, and land was bought and sold subject to it, was it to be said it was no burden at all? There had been a charge for police on the land for a generation, and land had been bought and sold subject to it. Was it to be contended for a moment that because land had changed hands within the last 20 years, subject to the burden of providing a large portion of the expenses of the police, the police rate was no burden on the land '? The argument of the
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hon. Gentleman was completely valueless. The fact that they had a right to look at was whether property, be it real, be it persona], be it industrial, be it what it might, paid its full and fair share of taxation? What he claimed for real property was that it should be treated on an equality with income derived from personalty. Ho and all those who had been associated together on the local taxation question for many years past demanded this, and nothing more than this—that the burden of taxation, be it on real property—houses or land—or on personalty, be it for local purposes or for Imperial purposes, should be levied with absolute fairness and absolute equality; then, and then only, they would have no cause of complaint. The hon. Member who last addressed the Committee (Mr. Alderman Lawrence) said that, in regard to the grievances to which he alluded, ho was always put off by being told—"Oh, we cannot remedy this until something else is done." That was the very answer which was always given to him (Mr. Paget) and his Friends. The House had again and again recognized by vote that the bur-don of local taxation was such as to demand immediate attention. How was it that it had never come to pass that effect was given to the Resolution of the House? It was because they had always been put off by the cry—"Wait for your county government; wait for your local reforms; wait till these things take place, and then a financial remedy will be afforded you." But they had waited in vain too long. It would not do to let it go forth that there was anything approaching a shadow of truth in the statement that land escaped its fair burdens. It might be that land escaped certain Imperial burdens; but then it was doubly taxed locally. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Wolverhampton said that the larger the amount raised by local loans the better. Those words of the hon. Gentleman astonished him, because he knew the extent to which local loans had increased. When he remembered that vast sums of debt were being incurred by Local Authorities, it was too much to hear from the hon. Member that the larger the amount raised in that way the bettor. He was afraid the hon. Gentleman had in his mind the borough of Wolverhampton. He (Mr. Paget) recollected hearing in that House the

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right hon. Gentleman the late President of the Local Government Board (Sir Charles W. Dilke) speak in terms of approbation of a loan of £600,000 which had been signed that day with the borough of Wolverhampton. What had been the result? They had made Wolverhampton a desert. [Mr. H.H. FOWLER: No !] The hon. Member might say no; but he (Mr. Paget) had a personal acquaintance with Wolverhampton. He went there a short time ago to find acres of land lying deserted by the magnificent scheme to which the loan of £600,000 had been applied. The rates of Wolverhampton had been raised to such a pitch that the place had been ruined. [Mr. H. H. FOWLER: No!] It was his (Mr. Paget's) misfortune to have an intimate acquaintance with the town; it was his misfortune to be the possessor of a few acres of land in the neighbourhood; it was his misfortune to know that the rates had been raised to such an extent that they formed such a burden that many places in the vicinity were increasing in population with a rapidity for which Wolverhampton would look in vain. He admitted that there was much to be done in the way of local reforms, and in many of them he heartily concurred; but when it was said that the larger the amount of local loans raised the better, he—
MR. H. H. FOWLERsaid, the hon. Gentleman had completely misunderstood him. What he had said was that the more loans were granted the greater was the corresponding profit to the Exchequer.
MR. R. H. PAGETsaid, ho was sorry if he had misunderstood the hon. Gentleman. He took down the hon. Gentleman's words, and thought he was placing a fair interpretation upon them. They had, however, to thank the hon. Member for bringing the question before the Committee. They wanted daylight to be thrown upon it. They wanted the whole truth in that matter to be told. If it could be justly proved that there was any class of property which did not bear its fair share of the burdens of the country, he did not care what happened as long as the injustice was removed. If the result of the investigation was to put more taxation on land, good and well; but let the investigation be complete. Do not let them have recriminations—"You are not taxed, and you are
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not taxed." The owners of land had nothing to lose by a thorough inquiry and by a plain statement of the facts. He wished that the whole truth should be put clearly before the nation at large, so that every man might know how the matter stood. He asked for nothing, demanded nothing, but absolute justice, absolute fairness, absolute equality of taxation for all classes of property in respect of Imperial and local matters.
MR. ARTHUR ARNOLDsaid, he wished to detain the Committee by making a few remarks which meant practically a Notice of opposition to one part of the right hon. Gentleman's Budget— an opposition which he was sufficiently impartial to give Notice of when the right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Childers) introduced his scheme. His confidence in the personal sense of justice of the Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) was severely shaken by the right hon. Gentleman's adoption of the proposal of his Predecessor with reference to corporate land. He doubted if the right hon. Gentleman was aware of the gross scandal he had sanctioned by his adoption of that proposal. Take, for example, one case of the injustice which would be permitted. There were some 500,000 acres of the very best land in the country belonging to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and to the Colleges of Oxford and Cambridge. Under the Income Tax Acts those lands were exempted from Income Tax; and the right hon. Gentleman, himself a landowner, and surrounded by landowners paying Income and Succession Duty, now proposed to the House of Commons to confirm, not the exemption that existed, but to confer a statutory exemption upon those and other corporate lands. He (Mr. Arnold) did not hesitate to say that that was a scandalous proposal. What did it amount to? The late Prime Minister had described the exemption as a grant. The right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to take out of every poor man's pocket a certain sum of money in order that he might make a grant to the richest Church Corporation and the richest Universities in the whole world. He ventured to make that observation because he heard his right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) ask the Chancellor of the Exche-

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quer when he proposed to take the second reading of the Budget Bill. He presumed the right hon. Gentleman would introduce a new measure, and allow the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract to drop. On the second reading of the Bill he should condemn the exemption which the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to the House, unless, indeed, the right hon. Gentleman, on reflection, himself suggested the repeal of the scandalous exemption which it was now proposed to give to corporate and other lands.
MR. GREGORYsaid, he would not refer to the burdens on real property, which had been ably stated by hon. Gentlemen who had preceded him; but he would point out that there was a very large class of personal property in the country which passed from hand to hand, and which entirely escaped duty. There was an immense number of houses in the country all well furnished. The furniture was property, yet it paid no duty on transfer. On pictures no duty was paid. There was a large amount of property in plate, jewels, and other similar articles, and yet no duty was paid on its transfer. There were other classes of property, too, of a commercial character, which did not pay any duty. Take the goodwill of a business, which on transfer produced a large sum of money. That was property of a valuable character; but he was not aware it paid any duty. Stock-in-trade too was property, but it was not subjected to duty. The number of financial transactions which wont on from day to day in the City of London which escaped taxation was almost incredible. He did not think, therefore, that in dealing with the two classes of property these considerations ought to be lost sight of. The question of the Succession Duty on land was a very technical one. It was a fact that there was a considerable hardship in respect of the Succession Duty in consequence of the terms used in the Act. Cases were constantly occurring in which property was liable to the 10 per cent duty on account of the use of the words "predecessor in title," whereas it would only be liable to the 1 per cent duty if other words wore employed. With respect to the assessment of the Succession Duty on the life interest, it should be
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observed that it was levied upon property which was permanent in its nature, and which was, as it were, always under the hand of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; whereas personalty on which dues had once been paid might be carried out of the country, or otherwise disposed of in such a manner as never again to become liable to duty here.
MR. FRANCIS BUXTONsaid, he had to apologize for troubling the Committee; but he wished to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the clear statement he had made under somewhat difficult and painful conditions. The proposals themselves were at least simple, and, he thought, on some points, deserved the congratulations of hon. Members on that (the Opposition) side of the House. In the first place, he would venture to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on his proposal to make an alteration in the Budget proposals as brought in a couple of months ago in that he was not going to anticipate the Sinking Fund of next year. He could not help thinking that the principle of anticipating the Sinking Fund and the paying off of a part of the National Debt was a somewhat dangerous one; and ho was well satisfied that the right hon. Gentleman had thought right to make an alteration in that respect. In other respects he saw that "coming events cast their shadows before." There was in the Budget proposals of the right hon. Gentleman a very dark shadow in many respects. He could not help thinking that, whilst hon. Members on the other side of the House had described the late Budget as a £100,000,000 one, they should describe the present proposals as a 100,000,000 Vote Budget. He could not help thinking that it was, to some extent, a popularity Budget. The effect of the proposals before the Committee was that the Treasury should have power to issue £4,000,000 of Treasury Bills to meet the requirements of the moment. The late Government had given them good hopes that £2,000,000 of the £11,000,000 would not really be required; but now the right hon. Gentleman (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) came down and asked them to pass a Budget with a deficit of £4,000,000; and, so far as he (Mr. Buxton) could understand it, he did not hold out any hope

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that any part of that £4,000,000 would not be spent. It was to be regretted that the Committee should be called on to pass such a Budget as this, and he would venture to offer his humble protest against such a system of finance. The right hon. Gentleman had said that he had done his best to carry out a principle which he admitted was a sound one—namely, that on this occasion, when there was a special requirement for the financial demands of the country, some indirect taxation should have been put on as well as direct taxation. The right hon. Gentleman had found, however, after very careful search, that there was no article on which he could put indirect taxation except tea if he gave up beer and spirits. That conclusion showed, to a certain extent, the wisdom of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer in having ventured, just before the General Election, to propose indirect taxation on beer and spirits. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer, as the right hon. Gentleman would, no doubt, admit, had spoken somewhat in favour of a duty on tea; but he had said that such a tax would be too unpopular for even the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lothian (Mr. Gladstone) to propose on such an occasion as this—just on the eve of a General Election. It was to be regretted that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had endeavoured to make this a popularity Budget to such an extent as not to raise any money by indirect taxation, whilst there was such a large increase in direct taxation. The right hon. Gentleman was going to put 1½d. on the Income Tax, and was about to do that without any indirect taxation; and would there not be some justification required for an 8d. Income Tax if, at the end of the year, they found there was to be a "great change in the financial arrangements of the country?" An inquiry was to be held into the causes of the depression in trade, and in regard to the measures to be adopted to put an end to that depression; and with the hon. Gentleman the present Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Chaplin) sitting on the Front Ministerial Bench he could easily imagine that that inquiry was only to have one result, and that they would see a bold return to putting protective duties on foreign imported articles. Why, if that were really to come
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to pass—if they were really to see this great change in the fiscal arrangements of the country, surely the Income Tax payors could reasonably complain that the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had just come into power at a little more than a week's notice, had, by his Budget arrangement, ventured to maintain the Income Tax at the abnormally high figure of 8d. They would surely complain that he ought to have waited a little longer, until the result of the inquiry had become known. They would surely say that he need not have levied that large amount upon them at that time. He (Mr. Buxton) must ask pardon of the Committee for having detained it on that occasion; but he felt that with the large deficit they were asked to carry on for the next two years—a principle which he hoped every hon. Member, at least on that (the Opposition) side of the House, would most heartily condemn — some protest was necessary from him. He thanked the Committee for having listened to him.
MR. ECROYDsaid, he thought that the hon. Gentleman the Member for Andover (Mr. Francis Buxton) had entirely left out of view, in the remarks he had just addressed to the Committee, the fact that the arrangements proposed by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer were simply those which remained of the recent proposals of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Childers), and which had not been condemned by a vote of the House. He, for one, could not admit that that condemnation had proceeded only from the action of Gentlemen who now sat on the Ministerial side. The cause of the failure of the Budget of the late Government was the deliberate refusal of the ordinary majority of the House of Commons to support it. The condemnation which had been passed on it had been the condemnation of a large body of the Liberal Party, who must, accordingly, be held responsible for the disappearance from the Budget of those particular proposals which were condemned by that vote. For his own part, he heartily rejoiced that in a state of affairs almost unparalleled—quite unparalleled in the present generation-—in which an enormous and sudden increase of expenditure for great national purposes had been called for at a moment when trade, agriculture, and industry

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were all profoundly depressed—the country should be spared an oppressive increase of taxation. The means by which the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to provide for this immense and sudden deficiency were means peculiarly appropriate in the present condition of things. The right hon. Gentleman proposed to borrow by Exchequer Bills. Well, it unfortunately happened that the trade of the country was in so stagnant and miserable a condition that the money which ought to be employed in it was lying, to a large extent, idle and unoccupied; and thus the very circumstances that rendered the country unusually unable to bear an addition to the ordinary burden of taxation enabled the Chancellor of the Exchequer to borrow money at an extraordinarily low rate of interest. He thought no more complete justification of such arrangements as those now proposed could be conceived. He would not attempt to enter into the question introduced in the speech of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler), which seemed altogether foreign to the subject in hand. This was not the proper occasion for a discussion of the great question of local taxation. That speech was, he conceived, directed not to the Business of the House, but rather to the purposes of the coming General Election. But the charge of acting with a view to the coming General Election could hardly be laid at the door of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in connection with the proposals he had submitted. They were arrangements of an entirely provisional character, and they wore merely made from the pressing circumstances of the year. It was clear it would have been utterly impossible to pass a Budget of complete, new, and necessarily complicated arrangements in the month of July. But the hon. Gentleman the Member for Andover had spoken of the proposed inquiry into the existing depression of trade and industry. The hon. Member assumed that that inquiry was likely to lead to a complete alteration in the system of taxation in this country. If it did so, it could only be in consequence of the facts brought out by the inquiry being of such a character as to lead the great majority of the country to desire a change in the fiscal system, and to consider such a change just and ne-
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cessary under the circumstances. He (Mr. Ecroyd) should not attempt to prejudge that question. That might be the result of the inquiry, or it might not; but, at least, the investigation would bring to light a great deal that was now hidden from them, and would enable the public to form a much sounder judgment upon those questions in the future than they had been able to form in the past. He was firmly convinced that that inquiry, if fearlessly and honestly conducted, would bring to light a great deal of information not only in regard to fiscal questions, but in regard to other matters connected with commercial and industrial affairs that awaited settlement; and he rejoiced that Her Majesty's Government had had the wisdom and the courage to institute that inquiry at the present time. He believed it would meet with the general approval of the people of this country; but, at all events, he knew it would cause a feeling of the deepest joy and satisfaction in the hearts of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of the labouring classes. The objections which could be taken to such an inquiry were apparently set forth in an Amendment which the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cambridge (Mr. W. Fowler) had placed on the Notice Paper of the House. It seemed to him (Mr. Ecroyd) that the objection grounded on the possibility of raising expectations which could not be fulfilled was one of the most empty that could be imagined. It was as if, in the case of serious disease having attacked some member of a family, and a proposal having been made to call in physicians, in order to ascertain the nature of the disease, some friend of the family should say—"Do not inquire closely into the nature of this disease or its symptoms, lest you should raise expectations of a cure that will probably be disappointed." That was not sound advice, and he did not think it would meet with the approval of the great mass of the people of this country. He was sorry to detain the Committee at so much length; but there was one other question he should like to make a remark upon. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton had spoken of the fact that the industries of this country were overtaxed. He (Mr. Ecroyd) admitted it to the fullest extent. He believed the industries of this country were over-

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taxed and overburdened in the strenuous struggle they had to maintain with foreign countries under most unjust and unequal conditions; and there was no burden more grievous than the special taxation levied for local purposes on land and buildings, which were the great bases of all their industries. That heavy and increasing taxation of land and build-ings and the dwellings of the workers was a matter that would certainly have to be inquired into with a view of relieving their industries. In agreeing, therefore, with the statement of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton that the industries of the country were overtaxed, he dissented from the view that they should be relieved by increasing the burdens on land and buildings. He would rather say that the cure was to be found in bringing under the scope of taxation the enormous amount of capital held in this country invested in foreign land and buildings, and foreign manufactories and works, the products of which were brought here, duty free, to compete with our own industries. He believed that in this would be found the chief remedy for the over-taxation of their industries. Relief would be secured in a two-fold sense. They would relieve their own industries from an unjust burden, and, to a certain extent, impose it on the shoulders of those who in all fairness ought to bear a share of it. That would be an inevitable element in the future re-arrangement of fiscal matters in this country. But, as the hon. Member for Wolverhampton had said, all those matters were to be remitted to the verdict of the constituencies. To that verdict he (Mr. Ecroyd) was sure the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer might appeal with great confidence, for he had shown a sympathy and consideration for the suffering industries of the nation which had been rare of late years, and which would be highly appreciated by the people.
MR. M'LARENsaid, there was one object which the Committee had to provide for, and that had been frequently alluded to—namely, the subventions to local taxation. That was not the opportunity to discuss that question; but they must take it as a fact, in their general financial discussion, that that item was a growing one in the annual Estimates. They were adding, from
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time to time, on the Motion of one Party or the other, to that large and important item in aid of the local rates. Whether or not it was a right thing to be done, it was certain it was the duty of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for the time to provide, in some equitable way, for the payment of those subventions. Though they had been increasing year by year, the taxpayer looked into the burdens, and never found that there was any attempt made to adjust the burdens put on the land for Imperial purposes, and bring them into harmony with the burdens put upon personal property. Year after year the assimilation of Succession Duties and Legacy Duties had been spoken of. The subject had been brought forward by the present Leader of the Opposition (Mr. Gladstone), who had admitted that it was a most important question; and yet, on the eve of a General Election, both Parties were compelled to say—" We have come forward every year to reduce the burdens on land, and yet we have never had the courage to make the land pay the same taxes as personal property." There was, as he himself could testify, a strong feeling in the country against the injustice of that state of things. Ordinary occupiers had to pay heavy rates, and they found that although Parliament came forward, year after year, with payments in aid of rates, they never had to pay any less. For instance, the lessees of the land held by the Ecclesiastical Commissioners knew that when they died their successors would have to pay sums varying in amount; but, whatever the amount might be, it was unjustly in excess of what was paid by the owners of the ground rents. A great deal had been done to attempt to show that that was not a real injustice; and the hon. and learned Member for East Surrey (Mr. Grantham) had especially distinguished himself by drawing what he (Mr. M'Laren) considered most fallacious conclusions from facts admitted. The average amount of money paid in Succession Duty was If per cent, whereas on personal property they never got below 3 per cent, and they often went up to 9, 10, and 12 per cent. They on the Liberal side of the House were frequently twitted with not being alive to the claims of the local taxpayer. He would suggest that if the parties who held that opinion

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would come forward with some bold proposal for equalizing, as far as they could, the national tribute which land and personalty had to pay, they would come with a much better grace and receive a larger share of support on this subject in the House. There was a question of principle behind it; but still they could, some of them, go before their constituents and say that an attempt was being made by some Party in the State to remedy the grievance. He was sorry that this Budget would have to go to the country practically without discussion on its merits; but he thought that before the Tax Bill went through its several stages it would be the duty of the right hon. Gentleman below him (Mr. Childers) to show the fallaciousness and weakness upon which it was based. It was not a right thing that they, on the eve of the Dissolution, should silently allow a Budget to pass which was one of the most improvident and spendthrift which had ever been brought before the House of Commons. There had been one point in recent arguments of the Chancellor of the Exchequer which the right hon. Gentleman himself now said he was unable to substantiate. That close, careful examination he lately gave to the proposals of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) went for nothing. The late Government had been turned out on certain statements and financial criticisms; and yet, when they came to ask the right hon. Gentleman's Successor whether he had adopted the very conclusions on which he threw out the late Administration, ho said he was unable to do so. A great deal of interest had been taken in the country a month ago in the statement of the right hon. Gentleman that the duty on tea should be raised as well as on spirits and beer. The Secretary of State for India (Lord Ran-dolph Churchill) had made himself conspicuous in that House and elsewhere in demanding an increased duty on sugar. The country believed that something of that kind would be introduced into the Budget; and yet the House of Commons was now told that no statesman, either Liberal or Conservative, would have the courage to do that. There could be no greater or more crushing condemnation of the manner in which the Government had come into Office than the speech of the right hon. Gentleman that night.
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He (Mr. M'Laren) hoped the country would take notice of this—that the Government had come into Office on pretences and arguments that they were not able to substantiate. He hoped that in the course of the Autumn they would have on the part of the Leaders of the Liberal Party a pledge that they would undertake the thorough-going reform of what were called the Death Duties, and a proper adjustment of taxation between real and personal property.
MR. HARRISsaid, the hon. and learned Member (Mr. M'Laren) who had just sat down had complained that real property was lightly taxed, whilst unjustly heavy burdens were imposed upon personal property. Well, he (Mr. Harris) happened to be an owner of both kinds of property, and he found that the burdens on his real property were very real indeed—in fact, ho paid at least 10 times as much in the form of various burdens on his land for national purposes as he paid on his personal property. Moreover, worse than that, when applied to land used for productive purposes, it all came out of industrial pursuits, because, as an agriculturist, he was competing on most unequal terms with agriculturists abroad, who had immense advantages over him. He was competing with the owners of virgin soil, and men who took advantage of all the native resources of the soil, on the principle of exhaustion; whilst it was a source of considerable expenditure to him to renew artificially the recuperative energies of the land. Moreover, as a large employer of agricultural labour, he ought to be relieved, in some degree, from contributing to the maintenance of the poor. The real burdens of taxation of all kinds imposed on agricultural land must fall on the industry of farming in this country. The burdens on agriculture, he could assure the hon. and learned Gentleman, were, therefore, very real indeed, and stood very much in the way of the prosperity of this most useful industry. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler), he understood, had in his speech admitted that the taxes fell very heavily on the industries of the country. He (Mr. Harris) could hear out the hon. Member so far as farming was concerned. He thought the agriculturist ought to stand in a very different position to any other producer, seeing the immense national import-

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ance of our home supply of food. The hon. Gentleman seemed to think that the landowners had bought their lands with all the burdens on them; but that was not the case. When most of them bought their land it stood in a very different position to that it occupied today. Its produce was protected; consequently the owners and occupiers received most of those charges again in the price they obtained for the produce. Before the English yeoman farmer could take anything for himself, he had to maintain the Church of England and the poor of the country to a very large extent. He was a large employer of labour, and he (Mr. Hams') maintained that if anyone ought to be to a large extent freed from the poor rate it was the farmers. Instead of that, the rate was levied upon the assessed value, which was often more than the net rental; and he had to pay, perhaps, 10 times as much as the nearest tradesman, who was very likely doing a more profitable business, and who occupied a house and small buildings. The tradesman would be assessed for his house and small buildings at one-tenth the amount the farming class had to pay on their business premises. Why was he, a farmer, to pay police rates in excess of others who had movable property which could far more easily be stolen? Police rates ought to be raised from people who owned diamonds and valuable things which were portable, and the agricultural land ought to be relieved to a corresponding extent. Suppose that the distress in the country became much greater than at present. Suppose that the labouring classes became so poor that they rose against the property of the country, what description of property would they take first? Would it be personal property or land? Of course, they would first seize personal property; and so far as personal property was concerned it was impossible, at present, to say that it bore any burdens at all. They could not say whether the Income Tax even was paid on the actual income or not; whereas upon land it was a simple process to levy it upon the gross rental, without any reference to the annual outlaynecessary, and which ought to be first deducted there from. There was no doubt that land at present was not producing anything like the sums which appeared in the Board of
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Trade Returns. He did not think that the actual amount of rental in England and Wales exceeded £30,000,000, although the Board of Trade Returns fixed it as high as £48,000,000. There was a vast amount of land which was worth nothing at all, and would not pay for expending money upon it in improvements. As a matter of fact, the improvements often cost a lot more than the land was worth; and, therefore, in putting taxes upon the land, they were really placing them upon the improvements. He considered it most unfair to tax the agricultural land, and by that means prevent the farmers and owners of land in this country from competing with the farmers and owners of land abroad. The farmer ought to be taxed on nothing beyond the value of his house, and then he would pay quite as much as other people. Hon. Members opposite imagined it to be a fine thing to have all this food coming into the country from abroad, and, no doubt, it was a good thing for the poor to have cheap food; but it would be far more satisfactory still if the English farmer had the opportunity of producing it. The more taxes they placed upon an industry like farming, the less able the farmers were to compete with foreigners. He thought that real property, such as agricultural land, ought to be treated as industrial property. If the burdens on the land fell upon the landlord, ho was unable to do what he ought to do for the tenant, and if they fell on the tenant he could not compete with the foreigner; whereas if they fell on the man who farmed his own land, how could he possibly compete with the virgin soils of foreign countries? There never was a time in the history of England when agricultural land required more doing to it in the shape of improvements, all over the country, than now. But they found hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite going all over the country and making speeches about the extra burdens which ought to be put upon it, and the ransom due from it. How, under such circumstances, could they expect the landlords to do anything for their tenants, notwithstanding the fact that there never was a time when the tenant farmers wanted more doing for them? The landlords desired to lay out money in improvements; but they were afraid to do so.

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He (Mr. Harris) during the last 15 years had laid out more money in agricultural improvements than his estate was originally worth; but for every extra £100 he laid out, he had a fear as to what the result would be. He knew very well that it was not a question of taking £ 100 out of Consols, and losing the 3 per cent interest which he would otherwise got upon it; but it was a question of the rates that would be placed upon the land afterwards. It, therefore, became simply a question of a reduction of capital, and how could improvements in farming be expected if they were continually putting heavier burdens on the soil, which was the raw material which the farmer used, just as much as cotton was the raw material which the manufacturer used? He was willing to admit that there ought to be one rule in regard to the succession of property; but they must oppose anything extra in the shape of a btrrden being put upon the land, whether a Death Duty or anything else, until the grievances of which the agricultural interest complained had been removed. All the burdens which now lay on land had been put upon it under totally different principles from those which now existed; and when the repeal of the Corn Laws took place those burdens ought to have been removed at the same time. When farms were put up in the market, they found no bidder for them. There were at that moment farms in Essex, Suffolk, and Norfolk, which were let simply upon the terms that the tenant should pay the ordinary outgoings, but that he should actually pay no rent at all. He saw no probability of grain or wheat going up in price. He was afraid it was much more likely to go down; and yet, under such circumstances and at such a time, it was proposed to increase the burdens. It seemed to him utterly absurd and ridiculous to propose such a thing, and he was glad that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had put his foot down in the interests of that which would be found to be the staple interest of the country, when all other industrial interests were gone.
GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALEOURwas understood to say that as the right hon. Baronet (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) had indicated that it was highly probable the present Government would be in Office when the next Budget was brought
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before the House, he would express a hope that the right hon. Gentleman would turn his attention to the heavy duties now levied on gold and silver plate, and to the interference with free trade by hall marking, and would see his way to abolishing those duties. There could be no doubt that these interferences impeded trade, and thereby diminished the demand for skilled workmen. It would be found that two or three days' employment in the week were very general. The result was that the fine hand work of gold and silver manufacturers was less advanced than it would be if the artizan directed all his time to the art. The tax yielded but little to the Treasury, though the rate of taxation was heavy, being at least 30 per cent on the value of the metals used. A Select Committee had already reported in favour of the abolition of duties, and during the last four years the Chancellor of the Exchequer had been in favour of abolition. The prevailing cause had been the fear of a heavy drawback being demanded by the holders of stocks. That fear ought not to prevent abolition, seeing that one year's income, say £70,000, would suffice to repay the duties levied for one year's stock.
SIR GEORGECAMPBELLremarked, that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that he had the task of providing a sum of money equivalent to that which would have been produced if the proposal of the late Government for imposing increased duties upon spirits and beer had been adopted. The right hon. Gentleman had done it by the simple process of not finding the money at all, but borrowing. Although he (Sir George Campbell) thought it was bad finance not to provide for the expenditure of the year, he was afraid that the course which had been taken could not be avoided in the present instance; and, therefore, he would say no more upon the subject. But they had now reached the enormous expenditure of £100,000,000, and had got to find £9,850,000 upon a Vote of Credit; and he wanted to know what the Government were spending their money upon? In regard both to the Army and Navy expenditure, he wished to know how the money was going? In particular he desired to know what the Soudan War, which was estimated to the 31st of March last to cost £1,600,000, had really cost,

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because they had already been told that the Estimate would have to be extended to £4,500,000; although, at a subsequent period, they were informed by the late Secretary of State for War (the Marquess of Hartington) that as the war in the Soudan had been abandoned that expenditure would be very materially diminished. It did seem somewhat extraordinary that during the whole of last year the war expenditure should have been £1,600,000, and for this year should have been increased to £4,500,000, when the Force was returning from Khartoum. Was it proposed that they were now to expend that large amount of money after the decision which had been come to for the withdrawal of the troops? He wanted to make the matter perfectly clear to the country what the real expenditure of the Soudan War was, and he wished to distinguish between the Soudan War proper, and the expenditure now going on for the maintenance of something like 20,000 troops in Lower Egypt. He did not know whether he made himself perfectly clear; but what he wished to have was the total cost of the war expenditure in the Soudan proper until the withdrawal of the troops, and what the expenditure was which was being incurred in maintaining their troops in Lower Egypt. He desired to learn what the military expenditure was which was included in this large sum of money, and what other kind of expenditure was also incurred under the head of military expenditure. There were one or two other points upon which he would like to say a word before he sat down. He had understood the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that he did not propose to prosecute the proposals of the late Government in regard to the Wine Duties. Was that so or not? [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: Yes.] Then he would express his great pleasure that the Government had arrived at that decision. He thought it was monstrous that while whisky was paying 10s. a gallon, port and sherry should only pay 1s. a gallon. He did not propose to enter into a discussion of the taxation upon property, which had occupied the greater part of the evening. Ho thought the Committee were greatly indebted to the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. H. Fowler) for bringing the subject
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forward. He did not intend to discuss the question of taxation as affecting real and personal property, because all must admit that that was a very difficult question indeed. But he entirely concurred with the hon. Member that property in general was not sufficiently taxed, and that there was good ground for imposing further taxation upon it, and remitting a portion of that which fell upon industry, except where it was imposed upon articles of an injurious nature. He hoped that, whatever the ultimate measures taken might be, this would be borne in mind. For his own part, it did seem to him that property was very insufficiently taxed, and that the labour and industry of the people were very much overtaxed. He thought it was quite right to abandon any attempt to increase indirect taxation. The incidence should be adjusted; but, that done, he thought the country ought thoroughly to understand that if they wont to war the people must pay for it. What he should like to see was more activity on the part of the Government in preventing war; and they would be materially aided in effecting that object if the people were made to feel the pinch of war.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I only rise to make a single remark on two very striking subjects to which we have listened to night. We have heard the voice of Protection very plainly enunciated by the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd) and the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Harris). The hon. Member for Preston has given us a very instructive commentary on the real object of the Commission of Inquiry that has been suggested. We have been told that there is no doubt what its end will be, and its object would appear to be to establish a proper basis for the restoration of the protective system. I gathered that distinctly from the speech of the hon. Member for Preston. But the hon. Member for Poole has also made a very able speech, from his point of view, with reference to the agricultural interest, and has spoken of the distress of that interest. Now, the existence of that distress I do not for a moment deny, and I regret it as much as the hon. Member does; but the hon. Member is, happily, a comparatively young man, and he looks on agricultural distress as a new thing in the

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trade of this country. For myself, I have not a personal recollection of the state of things which existed in this country 50 years ago, when Protection was in full force; but I know that at that time the depression of the agricultural interest was as great—nay, greater—than it is now. ["No!"] Yes; I have read the Reports of Commissions. You talk of Commissions now to inquire into the distress of the agricultural interest; but go back and read the Reports of Commissions on the condition of the agricultural interest between the years 1832 and 1837. This House was then perpetually appointing Committees, and Commissions of Inquiry were frequently issued to inquire into the state of the agricultural interest; and if hon. Members will read the Reports and statements of these Committees and Commissions as to the condition of agriculture when Protection was in full force, they will find that the condition of that interest, under the full force of protective duties, was far worse than anything that exists at present. You talk of the price of wheat. As to the price of wheat, I venture to say if you will go back to the time of which I speak you will find that about the year 1835, and a year or two before or after that period, the price of wheat was about the same as it is now. ["No!"] Yes; it was about 33s. or 34s. a-quarter; and that was in the palmy days of Protection. That is not all, because the price of meat then was not half of what it is now. Therefore, I say that if you take the question of prices, or the result of those prices, you will find that there was, at that time, a condition of things at least as bad, I venture to say, as anything we have now. I remember that when these same questions were raised some eight or ten years ago, when I represented Oxford, I found occasion to allude to them; and I recollect that Mr. Henley, a great authority on those subjects in this House, said—"You are perfectly right; we now know nothing at all compatible with the condition of things in 1835." Mr. Henley added—"I recollect the time when in Oxfordshire"—Oxfordshire is now, I am sorry to say, one of the most distressed counties in England —"all round me there was farm after farm out of cultivation, because they could not afford to pay rates." Now, I am not using the language of contro-
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versy, but am rather referring to these things as matters which may afford some consolation to the agricultural interest, because, if we can look back to periods when the disease has been quite as serious as it is now, and was followed by recovery, why may we not expect to realize the same experience again? I see that an hon. Gentleman opposite shakes his head and is determined to despair; but I would recommend the hon. Gentleman not to think that Free Trade is always to cause low prices for agricultural produce; and not to think that Protection can always be the remedy for them; for there is no doubt whatever that throughout the world—although it is a difficult thing to explain, and I know of no economist who can pretend to explain it—there has been a universal wave of depression. But does it exist in England alone? Let us go to America, about the most Protectionist country in the world, and we shall find trade more depressed than it is here. Look at the iron trade of America, the corn trade, and all the industries that are protected to the highest possible degree in America, and where do we hear such loud complaints of de-pression? It is a remarkable circumstance, and I do not pretend to give any explanation of it; but it is an entire mistake to suppose that the depression of trade which exists, whether in our textile industries, our iron trade, our corn trade, or our agricultural interest generally, is a thing peculiar to this country. We know perfectly well that it prevails universally in every country in the world. I only venture to make these remarks after the Protectionist speeches we have heard from the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Ecroyd) and the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Harris).
MR. ECROYDdenied having said a single word that could be construed into advocating Protection. He was absolutely opposed to it.
SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Then my oars must have deceived me, and I am glad to hear the denial, for I was afraid that his abilities had been enlisted in that cause. I understood him to say that he denied that those taxes should be raised from the foreigner; but if I am mistaken I am glad to be corrected. But I do not think that I placed a wrong interpretation upon the remarks of the

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hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Harris), or that I misrepresent the views of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Chaplin), when I say that he sometimes advocates a 5s. duty on com. It is thought that a 1s. duty on corn here or there under the influence of Protection will repair the agricultural distress which now exists. I can only hope that the agricultural interest, which recovered from the very serious depression of 50 years ago, will recover again without having recourse to quack remedies, which people are very apt to administer to themselves when suffering.
MR. STORERremarked that they were forestalling, in a discussion upon the Budget, a question which would probably come on for discussion later in the Session, when the whole subject would have to be considered. There was certainly no time for entering into it fully on the present occasion. At the same time, he entirely refused the sympathy and comfort which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt) offered to them, and which he seemed to think the agricultural interest was so much in need of. The right hon. Gentleman said he knew that agricultural distress was existing at the present moment, and he deplored it as much as anyone; but, at the same time, he said that things had been as bad before as they were now; and, therefore, they were likely to recover again as they had done in times past. He (Mr. Storer) would remind the right hon. Gentleman of this fact—that things might have been bad in the past so far as the agricultural interest was concerned; but it was doubtful whether the price of corn had ever been so low as it was now for 100 years past. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider the subject a little more carefully, and to go into it a little more deeply; and he would find that when prices were low formerly it was due to a succession of good seasons when there had been good harvests. Having farmed for 50 years himself, he knew that to be a fact. It was quite true that when there had been a famine in the country corn had been at a very high price; but the right hon. Gentleman did not take those facts into consideration. Hon. Gentlemen opposite set up theories without taking into consideration the fallacies they
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preached, or what the condition of affairs formerly was. In olden times they were not subjected to the competition of the whole world; but they occupied a very different position now. Ho ventured to say that if Sir Robert Peel and Mr. Cobden were living now they would be Protectionists. He had in his possession some of the prize essays issued by the Anti-Corn Law League in favour of Free Trade in 1846. He had read them very carefully, and in every one of them the main point was that if they led the way in the adoption of Free Trade every country in the world would follow their example; and yet, after 40 years of that experiment, where were they? Not only every farmer, but every man connected with trade and business in the United Kingdom, and particularly with the corn trade, knew perfectly well what was the cause of the low price of corn in the country. They were told by a great authority they did not often see in the House now—the right hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. John Bright)— that all they wanted was a good season, that they had had a succession of bad seasons; but the moment the sun began to shine, and they had a good season, everything would come right again, and they would have fair prices. But what occurred last year, when they had the finest season they had had for years? Why, as a matter of fact, it was one of the worst for the farmers. In regard to the immediate subject before the Committee he desired to say a word upon it. Hon. Gentlemen opposite appeared to be the advocates of labour; but they forgot that in placing taxation upon land they were putting it upon the raw material—land was the raw material of agriculture, just as cotton was the raw material of calico, and iron the raw material of machinery. If they were to tax the land further, as the hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Harris) had ably pointed out, they would render the farmers still more unable than they would otherwise be to compete with the farmers abroad. All that showed the fallacy of the arguments of hon. Members opposite; but hon. Members, no doubt, insisted upon them with a view of influencing the next General Election. The agricultural labourers, however, fully understood those things. They knew the fallacy of the Free Trade views which had produced so serious a

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fall in their wages, and they knew that agriculture was year by year departing from the country—-that year by year more land was taken away from the plough and laid down in grass. Therefore, the depression was brought to bear not only on the farmer and occupier, but on the labourers themselves. The result was that meetings were being held to consider the necessity of the State-aided emigration of those who ought to be employed on the land; and some hon. Gentlemen proposed to divide the land into small holdings and establish peasant proprietorship, which would make them merely a great nation of paupers, who would be obliged, in the long run, to protect themselves against competition from America and other countries. The first cry they would have from the labourer would be that which had proceeded from France— namely, that they should protect themselves from the labourers of other countries. All those were matters which ought to be taken into consideration, and ought to influence the public at the next General Election. He trusted that they would receive careful attention, and that the people would not be led away by delusive statements such as those they had heard that night.
MR. ILLINGWORTHsaid, he recognized the fact that this was only a makeshift Budget, and he thought the circumstances of the case entitled the Chancellor of the Exchequer to leave the preparation of a new Budget until next year. Still, the Conservative Party had before them a magnificent entertainment, in which they were called upon to swallow every profession, every pledge, every principle, and every protest in which they had been indulging for the last five or six years. In regard to the Budget of the right hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers), it was objected that so much of the burden of the increased taxation was to fall upon real property. But what had the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) done? He had maintained the objectionable provisions of the Budget of his right hon. Friend, and had not had the courage to put upon labour and the industrial classes of the country that share of the increased burden which was more than ever necessary if the working classes were to have a monopoly of political power in the future. He
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could only say, in regard to the enormous sum they were called upon to meet, that ho thought it would have been, in the long run, more honest and more courageous to have found the means this year of meeting this extraordinary expenditure. Hon. Gentlemen opposite had no right to say that their present obligations were incurred by the late Government, because the fact was that in the most criminal part of the expenditure of the late Government hon. and right hon. Gentlemen on the opposite side of the House had participated. They had fully shared in the extravagance which had been displayed in connection with Egypt, South Africa, and Afghanistan. As a matter of fact, what right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite had maintained, and it was the only matter upon which they raised an objection, was that the Government had not made sufficient provision, that the Army and Navy were too small, and that more money ought to be squandered upon them. It was, therefore, impossible for them to appear at the next General Election and say that the responsibility rested with the Liberal and not with the Conservative Party. He was free to confess that the right hon. Gentleman had failed in courage in submitting a Budget in which both ends could be made to meet. It was a remarkable thing that the present House of Commons would at one moment indulge in enterprize which involved such an enormous and extravagant outlay of money, and yet were constantly, at intervals, treating the country to jeremiads about the depression of agriculture, asserting that the landlords were ruined, that all the industry of the country was in a miserable condition, when, forsooth, the recollection of this state of things did not damp the ardour of their enthusiasm whenever the question was the squandering of the public money. The question as to whether they might not resort to Protection had been again raised that night; and it had been suggested that, perhaps next year, when they knew something more of the fiscal condition of the country, it might be possible to place additional burdens upon some articles of import, so that the taxation might fall on the right shoulders. But he ventured to think that the next Parliament would look at the matter from a very

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different standpoint. The fact was that, although the suffering was universal, the outcry came from a small class, and that, too, the wealthiest and most influential class in the country. Commerce was equally depressed with agriculture. Those who had property locked up in their industries knew that the depression had been quite equal to that which had fallen upon land. He wanted to know, then, why the cry should only come from one quarter? As a matter of fact, it came from the idle class alone —from that class which, in the past, had enjoyed a monopoly of political power in both Houses, and a position such as no other class in the world had ever occupied. The result had been that they had been pampered, privileged, and extravagant; and. now, when they were returning to a more natural condition of things, they began to make the House and the country ring with their complaints of the suffering which had fallen upon them. He could feel for any depression, loss, and suffering which came upon any class; but he ventured to tell the landlord class of this country that land would not go out of cultivation so long as rent accrued to landlords, and rents must be foregone if they could not be borne, if the farmer was to live on the results of his industry. The hon. Member for Poole (Mr. Harris) had put his own case, but it was an exceptional one. The hon. Member appeared in the double character of landlord and farmer, and he had mixed up the two. He had put the case in such a way as to give the Committee to understand that the farmer would have to bear the burden of these increased rates; but he (Mr. Illingworth) contended that whatever burdens fell upon the farmer must go towards the reduction of the rent which the landlord received, just as the landlords of the country had to bear the burden of an Established Church. Burdens must diminish rent, both ecclesiastical and lay. The tithe was a permanent charge, and all the farmers must know that the rent of the lay landlord must shrink more and more before any relief would come to them in an abatement of the amount of tithe. He hoped the country would take to heart the lessons of the last few years. He confessed that he was amazed at the cowardice which had been manifested by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and by
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the House. The country had been involved in millions of expenditure for such fanciful objects as the possession of the territory of the Ameer of Afghanistan. Surely if they were to take up this Imperial position—if they were bent upon setting everything right in every part of the world, they should show that they had the courage to meet the expense of it. They ought not to begin in a cowardly spirit by piling up debits and setting aside Sinking Funds. He did not regret the latter step. Ho believed it to be appropriate enough that the National Debt should be reduced whenever there was a surplus from the increased taxation levied on the people of the country. But it was monstrous to pretend to reduce the National Debt, and then add to the taxation of the country year by year at a period of universal suffering and depression. The lesson to be learned from what was now taking place was that they should mind their own affairs more completely. He believed that the country would impress upon those who would be elected in the next Parliament the absolute necessity of acting in a very different spirit in regard to these foreign enterprizes. He believed that there was a wide-spread feeling among all the industrial classes of the country that they had no necessity to seek for more territory, or to enter into undertakings that were likely to involve loss of life and treasure to this country. He rejoiced that this dilemma had arisen, and that this check had been given to both Governments. He did not hesitate to say that he was reconciled to the loss of power by the late Government, when he recollected the supreme folly of which they had been guilty when indulging in the enterprizes to which he had referred. He ventured to warn the present Government that if anything happened to them in consequence of the foreign policy of the late Government, it would be due to the brave words they had used when sitting on that side of the House, and when they did not feel the responsibility of Office. Now that they were in power they felt no more desire to be brave than their Predecessors had been. He would only tell them that unless they wished to find themselves annihilated as a political Party they must lay it to heart that the working classes of the country would not tolerate that the

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supreme interests of the people should be trifled with in the future as they had been for so many years in the past.
MR. BIDDELLsaid, the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken said that this matter had nothing to do with land going out of cultivation; but nothing that the House could do would prevent the owners of land ceasing to cultivate arable land or turning it to that which was the most profitable use. What was the experience the farmer was now gaining? It was that he could not cultivate the land without incurring great loss. Whenland wasturned into pasture, about £1 per acre for labour would be saved; the result being that the surplus agricultural labour flooded the towns. What was now going on he believed would go on to a much greater extent in the future, and the result would inevitably be a large diminution in the agricultural population of the rural districts. He had heard the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Jesse Collings) say that the large towns were being crowded by the influx of rural labour. If so, it was this fact that had caused it. He altogether disagreed with the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt) as to prices. There was evidently something wrong in the conclusions which the right hon. Gentleman had formed. If his (Mr. Biddell's) memory was right, the price of wheat had not been so low for 100 years as it was now. Wheat-growing did not pay, therefore one-fourth of the arable land was no longer of that crop as formerly, but was allowed to remain in artificial grass. The low price of corn produced by an abundant home harvest, was a very different thing from a low price of corn produced by importation from abroad. It was the importation from other countries which ran down prices. It was most delusive for hon. Gentlemen opposite to contend that the low price of corn was indicative of prosperity and gain to the country. Had they ever had such universal depression in the whole country as they had now? They seemed to forget that a great part of the population were producers; they forgot their interests as producers, and they were in the habit of looking at them only as consumers. He advised the Committee to bear in mind the maxim, he thought, of Adam Smith—
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"Take care of the producer, and the consumer will take care of himself."
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH): I hope that, at any rate, I may draw this favourable conclusion from the discussion which has taken place—that hon. Members have not found very much to object to in the proposals which I have laid before the Committee. The debate has certainly been one of the most discursive that I have ever heard in this House. It has ranged over questions of Protection and Free Trade, the respective burdens of real and personal property, the Succession Duties, and even, I think, the hon. Member for Bradford (Mr. Illingworth) could not keep away from his old friend the Established Church. I hope the Committee will excuse me if I decline to go into all these topics. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Derby (Sir William Harcourt) was good enough to allude to the intention of Her Majesty's Government to institute an inquiry into the depressed condition of trade and industry. He stated that our intention, in proposing that inquiry, was to establish a proper basis for a return to the Protective system. I can only say that I entirely repudiate any such interpretation of our proposal. I was glad to notice, however, in the latter Part of the right hon. Gentleman's remarks, that he practically enrolled himself among the supporters of such an inquiry; because, although he gave such a description of it as I have quoted, and informed the Committee that there had been in times past, as we all know, great depression in trade and agriculture in this country, yet he admitted very frankly that there was at this time a universal wave of depression which no economist could explain. Surely, that being so, I may fairly count on his support to our proposal to institute an inquiry into the causes of that depression which no economist can explain. The hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. H. II. Fowler) was the first to deviate, if I may so call it, from the subject which I brought under the notice of the Committee. He delivered a speech, with all the ability which we know he possesses, on the question of the Succession Duties and the relative burdens on real and personal property. Now, it occurs to mo that if—as we some-

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times hear—it was for the interest of the late Government to have prolonged the debate upon the Amendment which I ventured to move upon the Budget of their Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was a pity that the speech of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton was not delivered upon that occasion. I do not intend to enter into all these topics, and only desire to answer some of the questions which have been asked me with reference to the proposal which I have made this evening. The hon. Member for Kincardineshire (Sir George Balfour) has asked me whether I would undertake to consider the question of abolishing the duty on gold and silver plate? I should be glad to consider the question of abolishing any duties at all; but I must say that I have never felt any great sympathy with those who wish to do away with the particular duty mentioned by the hon. Member, because it certainly appears to me to be a duty upon a very great luxury, whatever effect it may have upon the particular trade engaged in the production of gold and silver plate. The right hon. Gentleman the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Childers) asked me whether it was my intention to abandon the proposal which was contained in his Customs and Inland Revenue Bill for enabling the Treasury to raise the limit of the first-class wines to 30 degress? I may say that it is not my intention to proceed with that proposal, which, I may add, was made at the time when the late Government had every cause to anticipate that they would obtain certain commercial advantages from Spain. That proposal may or may not have been warranted on various grounds; but I do not think, under present circumstances, that it would be a very wise one to adopt. I am as anxious as the right hon. Gentleman can be to establish better commercial relations with Spain, and the best efforts of the Government will be devoted to that end; but I do not think that that end would be furthered if now I were to take power to do that which the right right hon. Gentleman proposed to take power to do in the earlier part of the Session. The right hon. Gentleman also asks me whether I have made any allowance, in calculating the deficit, for the abandonment of the 6d. telegram system? I did not make any allowance for that
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at all, and for this reason—that the Bill is still before the House; and from what passed the other night the House is aware that the question, whether it can or cannot be proceeded with, is still under the consideration of the Government. I may venture to say, on the part of the Treasury, that I cannot agree to any proposals which may involve a larger charge than the Bill proposes. The hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Arnold) and the hon. Member for the town of Cambridge (Mr. W. Fowler) made some observations upon the exemption of Corporations from Income Tax. The hon. Member for Cambridge, I think, alluded to the exemption of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners. That is a matter which I do not think I can enter into now; but this observation occurs to me in regard to it —that the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and Bodies of that kind are practically Trustees of property, the receipts from which they hand over to certain persons in return for duties performed, those persons paying Income Tax upon the revenues they thus obtain. That, therefore, would be a reason for the existence for what at first sight might appear to be an anomaly. I do not quite understand the argument of the hon. Member for Salford (Mr. Arnold) on the question of the exemption from taxation of Corporate property; but I will postpone any remarks that I may have to make upon that subject until a later stage of the Bill. I do not think that any exemption is conferred on Corporate property beyond what it now enjoys. The only other point I will now notice is that mentioned by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Childers) as to what day I propose for taking the second reading of the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill. If the Committee will consent— and I believe it will be quite in Order for the Clerk at the Table to read the necessary Resolutions after this Resolution has been voted—I might then obtain leave to introduce the Bill. In that case, I should propose to take the second reading on Thursday next, which would afford time for the consideration it requires. I have only now to thank the Committee for their kindness to me this evening.
Resolution agreed to; to be reported To-morrow,
Committee to sit again To-morrow.
1st, 5th, 6th, 12th, and 14th Resolutions [1st May] read.
Bill ordered, to be brought in thereupon by Sir ARTHUR OTWAY, Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, and Sir HENRY HOLLAND.
Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 22.3.]

CRIMINAL LAW AMENDMENT BILL. [BILL 159.]
(Mr. H. H. Fowler.)

SECOND READING. [ADJOURNED DEBATE.]
Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [22nd May],"That the Bill be now read a second time."
Question again proposed.
Debate resumed.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir B. ASSHETON CROSS): I wish, at the outset, to state the attitude of Her Majesty's present Government, with regard to this measure, in order that there may be no mistake on the subject. The subject-matter of the Bill has been before the country for some time. In 1881 and in 1882 the House of Lords had a Committee, which investigated the matter at very considerable length and made a most valuable Report, which every Member of the House has had an opportunity of seeing, and to which I need not, therefore, refer at any length. It will be sufficient to say that no one who has read the Report and the evidence can have any doubt that a Bill of this kind is absolutely necessary. If there is anybody in the House, and I think there can scarcely be anyone, who has not read that Report and evidence, then his opinion on the matter can be of little worth. Beyond that Report there is evidence certainly in my possession, and no doubt in the possession of many others, in relation to questions which have, from time to time, come forward, equally showing the necessity for a Bill of this character. The Bill before the House establishes no new principle, but merely extends the existing law. I believe that no question is really raised so far as the principle of the Bill is concerned, and the only question is as to the extent to which the provisions shall be carried out in detail. All the main questions
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are questions for Committee, and not for lengthened debate on the second reading. A Bill on the subject was brought into the House of Lords in 1883, and again in 1884, and the late Government introduced and passed this Bill in the House of Lords in 1885. No one can say that the question has been approached in a hurried manner. The country has had ample opportunity, not only of gaining necessary information, but of forming its opinion upon it. I hope the House will agree that the information is sufficient to warrant us in reading this Bill a second time even if there were to be no discussion on the second reading. The whole subject is thoroughly ripe for legislation, and, therefore, I, as Secretary of State, will offer the greatest facilities in my power for proceeding with the Bill. We have not only put the Government star upon it, but, as hon. and right hon. Gentlemen will see, we have taken the earliest opportunity of bringing the question before the House. And we hope to give it such. precedence as may assure its passing. In Committee it is probable that some alterations may be made; but I will not go into detail on that subject. I will only ask the hon. and learned Member for Stockport (Mr. Hopwood) whether, at this period of the Session, it is wise or necessary to move the Amendment he has put on the Paper. When I first read the Amendment I was somewhat puzzled to see what was its connection with the present question. The Amendment relates, no doubt, to certain Acts, which, though not repealed, are for all practical purposes in abeyance, and a pledge has been given by the Government that this state of things will not be disturbed until the House has an opportunity of again considering the subject; therefore I fail to see what the House or the country can gain from a discussion of those Acts of Parliament at present. As I am anxious that the Bill should pass, I will say no more, and I hope that the House will give it a second reading without a great deal of discussion. When we come to details, hon. Members will be able to express their opinions. There is a great amount of public opinion in its support. From what I found at the Home Office, I do not believe that public opinion would be satisfied unless the Bill is not only read a second time, but even passed, it

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might be with some alterations, but at all events passed into law.
MR. HOPWOOD, in rising to move as an Amendment—
"That, in the opinion of this House, repressive legislation of the kind is not calculated to effect the purpose of improving public morals, and, if passed into Law while the Contagious Diseases Acts 1866–1869 remain on the statute book, notwithstanding the Government was pledged to their repeal, would subject the Legislature to well-deserved imputation of insincerity and inconsistency,"
said, he held that repressive legislation in these matters was useless, or, at all events, likely to produce much more mischief than the benevolence of those who advocated such legislation led them to suppose. The right hon. Gentleman had spoken of the Bill with an innocence which might be assumed or which might be real; but if he looked deeper he would see that this was a most objectionable Bill in almost every one of its features. What did the good people who asked for such measures know about the law? They heard that females could part with their honour at a certain age, and thereupon they became wild, forgetful that there were such things as trumped-up stories and extortion. It had on a previous occasion been attempted to raise the age of consent to 14; but the late Mr. Russell Gurney, a Judge of enormous experience and of the calmest judicial temperament, opposed the step, and 13 was fixed as the age. Who supported him on that occasion? The right hon. Gentleman then and now Secretary of State for the Home Department. He (Mr. Hopwood) appealed to him to confirm him. What had happened since to make the House change the view which it then took? In the Report of the House of Lords there was nothing with which those who had to do with the administration of the Criminal Law were not already well acquainted. The real means of insuring the improvement in morals which they all desired to see was by the elevation of the population, and by providing them with constant employment. Legislation such as this would be no more successful than legislation aiming at the suppression of any other vice—for instance, that of drinking. One effect of the Bill would be to encourage the corruption of the police. Another would be to re-introduce the practice of the compulsory examination of women, who would be sent to gaol for accosting in the streets, and
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who would there be under the control of the Governor and surgeon. This Bill was in these respects a substitute for the Contagious Diseases Acts, which had been condemned by the House. The ex-Home Secretary (Sir William Harcourt), he ventured to say, supported the clauses as to solicitation with that view. Was this legislation in other respects necessary? Why, according to the present law—24 & 25 Vict. c. 100, s. 49—the offence of procuring a girl under the age of 21 by false pretences was punishable by imprisonment for two years. But bad any success attended this provision of the law? Had there been a single prosecution under it? It was ineffective and useless, and the contemplated legislation would not be more successful. He had seen it stated that a child under 14 could be lured from her home by fraudulent pretences, and detained against the wish of her parents, and that the police were powerless to interfere. This was an error, as under 24 & 25 Vict. c. 100, s. 56, which made the enticement, &c., of a child under 14 a felony, a magistrate could undoubtedly under the existing law issue a search-warrant, and, armed with it, the police, if need be, could break into the house where the child was detained. He was convinced that this legislation was not the means by which this evil of juvenile prostitution was to be put down. He thought that no addition should be made to the Criminal Law unless it could be conclusively shown that it was necessary and likely to effect its object. The provisions of this Bill were rather calculated to increase the evil than diminish it, for it would place young men and boys in the power of designing girls, and would be a most powerful weapon for extortion. They did not know the business they were attempting to legislate upon. Then, he contended, that if they were going to protect young persons by legislation, they should extend that protection to boys as well as to girls. But the moment they set up a State protection of virtue they would do a great deal towards diminishing the care which the possessors of it were bound themselves to exert. Another most unwise and cruel clause was that which made it an offence punishable with two years' imprisonment to harbour girls under 15 years of age for immoral purposes. The consequence

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would be that these poor girls would be hunted and chased about by the police, and would with difficulty find where to lay their heads. They would be at the mercy of their landlords and landladies, who would naturally charge increased rents, to reimburse themselves for the risks run, and at the mercy of the police, whose good will would often have to be bought to avert arrest or expulsion. The police would have the opportunity of levying blackmail from these poor creatures. Then, as to solicitation, the Metropolitan police magistrates had made it an invariable rule to require someone to complain of being solicited; but this was to be altered and the prosecution was to be left entirely to policemen, though it was true that more than one was necessary. A magistrate in Liverpool took on himself, sometime ago, to disregard the wholesome practice of the London magistrates, and to punish women for solicitation on the mere statement of a policeman, and he sent numbers of poor women to gaol for the offence. When he found this ineffectual he lengthened the terms of imprisonment, so that they might have their hair cut off. Such cruelty and hardship always attended legislation of the kind. He would only add that the clumsiness and absurdity of the Bill were only equalled by the folly of the views of those who were responsible for its inception. Some of the provisions embodied in it were rendered simply childish by the absurd regulations which the clauses contained. Some merely enacted what was already law. The Home Secretary had appealed to them; but he could not expect that the House would forego lengthened discussion on so important a matter. The way to remedy the evil was to adopt means for obviating prostitution. The present Bill would simply fall heavily upon a poor prostitute. They were going to raise every man's hand against her; and to that, as he had shown, would be added the power of the policeman, who would have every temptation to do so, to levy black mail in any quantity upon those unfortunate creatures. Many attempts in past times had failed, whose object, like this, was to repress immorality. There was the old Puritan law against incontinence, for which death was the penalty for the second offence. That law was not carried out; but the spirit of repression provoked the period
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of dissoluteness which marked the Restoration. In Berlin, a few years since, the authorities tried by police laws to abolish prostitution. Worse evils followed; so prostitution was allowed, though relegated to one quarter of the city. Was Berlin more virtuous than London? The Middlesex magistrates, some years ago, closed the Argyll Rooms, and what was the result? Disorderly scenes increased in the streets, which had hitherto been quiet. He, therefore, earnestly hoped that hon. Members would not allow themselves to be made parties to legislation of this kind, which might be productive of great cruelty, and which could do no good whatever. He begged to move his Amendment.
MR. SPEAKER: Will any hon. Member second the Amendment? [Cries of "No, no!"]
[The Amendment, not being seconded, was not put.]
MR. A.R. D. ELLIOTsaid, he thought the House would give the hon. and learned Member for Stockport (Mr. Hopwood) full credit for earnestness and sincerity, though they were not prepared to support his Amendment. The light hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department had put the question before them that evening in a most perfunctory manner. It would have been more satisfactory if the right hon. Gentleman had explained in what points the present law was found wanting. Every disorderly house was by the existing law illegal, and the proprietor of it was liable to prosecution. Was that law in force now? If so, why was it not enforced? Or had the police power to choose whom they should prosecute and whom they should overlook? If the existing law meant anything at all why was it not enforced; for if it were not enforced, the passing of another law would only prove a multiplication of paper laws. He thought that the House was much indebted to the hon. and learned Member for Stockport for the courageous way in which he had addressed himself to this question. It was of great importance that a measure of this kind should not be hurried through, because they were dealing with the liberty of the subject. He maintained that it was not enough to multiply what he termed Statute Book crimes; they must provide for the just

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enforcement of the law which they were called upon to sanction.
MR. BROADHURSTsaid, that the outspoken statement of the hon. and learned Member for Stockport deserved the earnest consideration of the House. He (Mr. Broadhurst) was not prepared to say but what a great part of the Bill might be useful and might do a great deal of good, and might in some cases accomplish its object; but even in that respect there was room for considerable and honest doubt. However, in agreeing to the second reading of this Bill, he thought it would be the duty of hon. Members to discuss the subject at somewhat greater length than appeared to be the original intention. With regard to the clauses of the Bill, he singled out Clause 9 as one to which he could not agree in any circumstances whatever. He felt that if that clause was to be enacted dangers might possibly arise out of it which would make life in large cities really intolerable, if not dangerous, to persons whose duties kept them out late at night. He even doubted, under such legislation as this, whether it would be safe for hon. Members to walk to their homes at night. He had frequent occasion himself to walk home from the House after midnight, and his journey thence did not pass through what was usually termed a fashionable neighbourhood. In the course of his walks he met many persons of the lower orders, and with all honesty and sincerity ho believed that if this clause were enacted, it would make it absolutely dangerous for him to walk home at I or 2 in the morning. However efficient and impartial the police, as a rule, might be in the discharge of their ordinary duties, they were not exactly the body to be intrusted with such extraordinary powers as were given them in this Bill. They were, in fact, placing in the hands of the ordinary policeman the future character, prosperity, and even happiness of any man whom he might think it proper to arrest. He maintained that, no matter what might be the strength of opinion in favour of legislation of this kind, the House of Commons, as the guardian of the liberties of the people, should not pass a measure of this character without the gravest consideration. As to the object aimed at by the Bill, he was second to no man in
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his desire to see crime of whatever character adequately punished, and the innocence of childhood carefully and rigidly protected. In doing so, however, they must be careful that more harm than good was not done by such legislation. He had sat for the past two years with the present Home Secretary on a Commission to investigate the condition of the poor in the Metropolis and other large towns of the United Kingdom. He appealed to the right hon. Gentleman to say, after the experience he had gained on that Body, whether, in his opinion, the greater part of this social evil which they all deplored—that part which made innocent childhood a marketable commodity —whether it was possible to stop this state of things so long as we herded together whole families in a manner worse than the beasts of the field? It was known that in London and other large cities one and even two families frequently occupied one room, in addition to lodgers; and this being so, how was it possible for them to cultivate that innocence in childhood of tender years which existed in children brought up under healthier and purer conditions of life? This legislation was to a great extent a mere mockery, if not a snare, so long as they refrained from going to the root of the evil. They must provide dwellings fit for human beings to live in, with a chance of growing up pure and moral. The poverty and wretched surroundings of the people in our large towns was the great cause of immorality. There were few women who chose an immoral life from mere choice. They were diven to it by force of circumstances; many of the poor wretches who tramped our streets at night were driven to such a life by the hard treatment they had received at the hands of a merciless world. Let anyone stand on Westminster, Waterloo, Blackfriars, or London Bridges any morning and watch the continuous stream of girls crossing from the Southern side of the river to the City and the West End to labour to their utmost capacity for a mere pittance insufficient to maintain them in the decencies of life. Very many of them were poorly clad and hungry, and he asked if was within human nature to expect that those poor wretches should withstand the temptations which wealth offered to them on their return journey

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in the evening? If they fell, as undoubtedly they did in such circumstances, he appealed to the House to say whether they were not rather subjects for pity than for condemnation. He contended that they were subjects for pity, and they should endeavour by all the means in their power, by legislation, if it could effect the object, and by individual work and exertion, to bring about a better social and material condition among the poor labouring people of this country. This was the true course which they ought to pursue in order to avert the evil which they were endeavouring by such legislation as this to eradicate. A public journal had just been investigating the extent to which the crimes prevailed which the Bill was intended to prevent. He would hesitate to condemn the course pursued by that newspaper. A man who cleaned out a cesspool must expect to be contaminated and avoided by those who would otherwise be glad to associate with him; and the man who held up to public scorn the existing hideous state of things deserved well of the nation. It was better to trace the evil to its source than to attempt to deal with its results. But he much feared that the Bill, though framed with the best intentions and from the purest motives, would miss its mark and fail of effecting the good which they all desired it to bring about.
MR. WARTONsaid, he regretted that the eccentric Amendment of the hon. and learned Member for Stockport (Mr. Hopwood) was discussed before the real scope of the Bill had been dealt with. He was thoroughly opposed to the Bill, root and branch, and regretted that the Leader of the House had been induced to allow it to proceed as a non-contentious matter. Even the late Home Secretary had admitted that he did not approve all the provisions of the Bill. The Times, on the 8th of August, 1883, speaking of the Bill of that year, which was very similar to the present, said that it was not of a character to inspire confidence in the legislative capacity of the House of Lords, and furnished an example of warning rather than a subject for imitation. In fact, it was such a Bill as might be expected to meet the approval of a Church Congress. That was the opinion of The Timet. Then the late Homo Secretary had said that he regretted the omission of the clauses
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which dealt with brothels and the frequenting of the streets for immoral purposes. He was then justified in saying that the right hon. Gentleman did not wholly approve the Bill. As the present Home Secretary had on a former occasion, when he was Mr. Assheton Cross, supported an Amendment to lower the age of consent from 14 to 13, it was inconsistent in the right hon. Gentleman to support this Bill which raised it to 1.3. It was almost impossible for a man against whom a charge was made of the character contemplated by the clauses of this Bill to obtain justice from a jury or even from a Judge. Prosecutions were got up by Societies pretending to be formed for the protection of young girls, which boasted that they never failed to obtain a conviction. No man, however innocent and respectable, was safe from such organizations. In conclusion, he would ask who was the wretched draughtsman who put this tissue of nonsense together? It was a measure that would open the door to unlimited extortion, and. which took the false step of confusing the distinction between vice and crime. Experience showed that we must tolerate vice until it became crime. When a house became a nuisance, let the neighbours take proceedings; but let there be no interference until there was a breach of public order or a crime was committed.
MR. SAMUEL MORLEYsaid, that the thanks of that House and of the country were due to the Government for having announced their intention to carry this Bill this Session. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary evidently felt deeply every word which he had used with regard to this measure. He was no advocate for an undue interference with the liberty of the subject; but we were surrounded by scenes, both in London and in our large towns, which were a disgrace to a Christian country, and which we were bound, if possible, to put an end to. He could not avoid, on this occasion, referring to certain statements which had appeared in a London newspaper, and which were unjustifiable on any other assumption than that they were true. In his opinion, not an hour should be lost in investigating the truth or the falsehood of those statements, which would be read through -out England, whatever might be done to

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prevent their circulation. He thought that those statements, if true, would strengthen the hands of the right hon. Gentleman in carrying this Bill; but, at the same time, it was to be feared that the measure would to a certain extent be ineffective to deal with the tremendous state of affairs set forth in those statements. The writer of the articles in question was unknown to him; but he knew enough of the editor of that paper to be satisfied that he was utterly incapable of publishing the statements in question for any other than a pure motive, and he attached immense value to the probable effect of those statements upon the public of England in dealing with a state of things which was unbearable. His name had been mentioned in one of the articles, and he desired to state that he would willingly undertake, with any two of the other gentlemen whose names were also given, to make an investigation of some of the statements; and if they proved true, he should be glad to put his name to the Report, so as to stimulate public opinion. He had spoken these few words with a desire to strengthen the hands of his right hon. Friend, if he would allow him to call him so, in dealing with one of the greatest evils of the time. He was glad of this opportunity to express his personal thanks to the right hon. Gentleman for having declared his determination to pass this measure into law during the present Session.
MR. W. E. FORSTERconfessed that he entirely agreed with those who believed that Parliament would fail in attempting to put down this vice by passing harsh and cruel laws with regard to the poor women who were the subjects of this Bill. He was very glad that the Government intended to proceed with this Bill, and he was in favour of the second reading of the measure. The hon. and learned Member for Bridport (Mr. Warton) had said that they ought to keep up the distinction between vice and crime; but, in his (Mr. W. E. Forster's) view, they ought to make that criminal in future which was not now criminal under the existing law. In the first place, they ought to make it a criminal offence to trade in and export girls and young women abroad for immoral purposes. He understood that there was no law that could prevent that trade
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being carried on at the present moment, and in that case he was of opinion that the law ought to be amended. Another reason that he had for supporting this measure was that it would afford protection to children. He was aware that many of these poor children were in such a state of misery that it would be difficult to restrain them from becoming victims of vice, and that it would be scarcely possible to protect them efficiently. But there were others who were not in that state, yet who were in danger of being made the victims of vice, and were incapable of protecting themselves; and these girls, at all events, ought to be protected by law. The law ought to step in in such cases and make it dangerous for anybody to take advantage of their youth and inexperience for wicked purposes, and so to condemn them to a life of absolute misery. This Bill would do something to protect these girls, because men would be very careful when they found that they were in danger of the law. The only objection that had been raised to the measure was that men might be induced to yield to the temptations of these poor children, who might use the powers of this Bill for the purpose of obtaining money. Well, let men take that risk. If that House by passing that measure could give protection to these unfortunate girls and women, he did not think that hon. Members ought to grudge the time necessary for passing this Bill even at this late period of the Session.
SIR BALDWYN LEIGHTONrose to address the House, when
MR. CAVENDISH BENTINCKrose to Order, on the ground that the hon. Baronet had already addressed the House on the question.
MR. SPEAKERruled that the hon. Baronet was not entitled to address the House, as he had already spoken on the question.
MR. SAMUEL SMITHsaid, he wished that it should be clearly understood that this was not a Bill for penal legislation directed against the poor helpless girls in question, but for their protection. He thought, indeed, that the House was called upon to take even stronger measures, and would be justified in appointing a Judicial Commission to search this matter to the bottom. In his opinion, it was absolutely necessary that the age within which absolute

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protection was extended to young girls should be raised from 12 to 16.
MR. ACKERSobserved, that he had not read the newspaper which had been referred to, as he understood that it was objected to as not a proper paper to be read. Had he known that it would form the subject of debate in that House, he should have deemed it his duty, however disagreeable, to read every word the paper contained, in order to see what reason hon. Members had for saying that mere statements in a newspaper were facts, and established the existence of crime. He had, however, read what was given in evidence before the House of Lords' Committee, and the Report of that Committee, he ventured to say, did not bear out a single argument that had been used in favour of the Bill before the House. He would suggest that the House should pass the second reading of the Bill without further discussion, for if they did not it might be thought that the House of Commons was less desirous than the House of Lords and the country that a stop should be put to these nefarious practices. There was, however, so much in the Bill of a contentious character, and so much that would, in his opinion, make bad worse, that in giving his support to the second reading of the Bill, he must expressly reserve to himself the liberty to oppose some of the clauses. He hoped that the Bill would not be burked in discussion, as it was before. He ventured to think that this was a subject which appealed to all classes, which was ripe for discussion, and which would be more and more impressed upon the attention of the country. They ought not, then, to shrink to do what should be done by the Legislature to remove the evil which undoubtedly existed, while at the same time avoiding hurried legislation, which they would afterwards bo sorry for.
MR. PICTONremarked that, until the hon. Member who had just spoken rose, there had been almost complete unanimity as to the existence of the evils which this Bill was designed to prevent, and for which, us the law stood, there was absolutely no remedy.
MR. ACKERSwished to correct the impression which the hon. Member seemed to entertain, that he had denied that there were evils to be remedied.
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On the contrary, he had expressly admitted that legislation was required, while guarding himself from giving his support to the Bill in its entirety.
MR. PICTONsaid, ho was exceedingly glad that he had mistaken the hon. Member, for now he could say that not a single hon. Member had denied that a wrong existed for which a remedy was required. The newspaper, the condemnation of which had been somewhat exaggerated, showed conclusively that there were wrongs for which no adequate remedy was provided, and that something was required to draw the attention of magistrates and Judges to the seriousness of these offences. As the law stood at the present time, wicked women who induced young children to leave their homes could not be punished. If a parent discovered that his child had been trapped to a certain house in a certain street, he had no power to recover instant possession of the child, but was obliged to sue out his writ of habeas corpus at an expense which was ruinous to him, and before the writ could be executed all the mischief was done. That was the position of poor men at the present time, and it was a wrong for which a remedy was urgently required. Although he thought that legislation was necessary in the face of the great crying evil, he did not see that all the provisions in the present Bill were necessary. In fact, after the first eight clauses, he did not see that there was any value in it.
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir RICHARD WEBSTER)said, that notwithstanding the criticisms on the Bill, it appeared to be conceded that there was a very substantial evil to be dealt with, and one with which every man who had the cause of humanity and morality at heart ought to do his best to grapple as effectually as possible. He thought there were certainly two or three important points in the Bill which were worthy of further discussion, and he, therefore, trusted it would be read a second time. The hon. and learned Member for Stockport (Mr. Hopwood) and the hon. Member for Roxburgh (Mr. A. R. I). Elliot) appeared to think that the Bill would not do very much good, and the former thought that the evil should be left to be met by better education and other means; but it seemed to him that one or two of the matters dealt with in the

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principal provisions of the Bill were not such as would be dealt with by education. If one thing bad been established, it was that there had been going on for some time, and to a large extent, a disgusting trade in young girls, not only in England, but also for the purpose of sending them abroad; and that alone was sufficient ground for legislation. He was in no way responsible for the drafting of the Bill, and, no doubt, there were clauses in it which required careful consideration; but he would respectfully submit that they ought rather to be discussed in Committee. It had been said that the Bill would do no good; at any rate it would do no harm, and he believed there were amply sufficient grounds to justify Her Majesty's Government in proceeding with the Bill.
MR. SALTsaid, ho did not intend to make any remarks on the second reading, as he should, of course, support it. Both the Home Secretary and the Attorney General had said the Bill would have to be carefully considered in Committee, and he would, therefore, ask whether either of them would give some indication as to the direction in which it would be altered? The Home Secretary might possibly be able to remove the objections entertained by some hon. Members to the Bill.
THE SECRETARYsaid, that there were some parts of the Bill which were complicated and some as to which he had doubts; and in his opinion it was very likely that it would not be possible to pass the whole of the measure this Session. After the second reading he proposed to put the Bill down for the Committee stage on Tuesday, hoping by that time to be able to state to the House what were the amendments which the Government thought ought to be made in its provisions.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed for Tuesday next.

SUPPLY—REPORT.
Resolutions [8th July] reported.
Resolutions 1 to 8 agreed to.
(4.)"That a sum, not exceeding £1,639,800, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expenses of the Dockyards and Naval Yards at Home and Abroad, which will come in course
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of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1886."
LORD HENRY LENNOXsaid, that, having been unfortunately absent from the House yesterday, he desired now to make a few observations in connection with those Estimates. The First Lord of the Admiralty had been asked to lay on the Table of the House the Reports of the captains as to the behaviour of their ships; but he trusted that the noble Lord would be very guarded and cautious in reference to what he published as to that subject. When the right hon. Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers) was First Lord of the Admiralty great pressure was put upon him to lay on the Table of the House the Reports of the captains of the various ships which had been out. No procedure could, he thought, be more fatal to the best interests of the Service than that, because they would have the captains writing their Reports, not for the Admiralty itself, but virtually for the House of Commons, and there would then be some temptation to officers to colour their Reports so as to meet the popular eye. Turning to another question that had been raised, he thought that whatever arguments there might be in favour of a change in the Board of Admiralty on the accession to Office of a new Government, those arguments did not hold good in regard to the Controller of the Navy, Admiral Brandreth. Again, he should like to ask the First Lord of the Admiralty for some information as to the position of Mr. Rendel, who was put into the Board about two years ago with a tremendous flourish of trumpets. At that time it was held out as a matter for national congratulation that they had at last on the Board, in the person of Mr. Rendel, a man of practical and professional experience, and they were led to expect that a new era was about to open in consequence. But they were told now that Mr. Rendel was leaving the Board. In 1868 Hobart Pasha was engaged in the Turkish Service without the slighest remuneration, and was there upon removed from the Admiralty. In 1874, when the late Mr. Ward Hunt was First Lord of the Admiralty, Hobart Pasha was reinstated in the English Navy at the express desire of the present Lord Derby, who was then Foreign Secretary—
MR. SPEAKERinterposed, and said, the noble Lord was not in Order in raising that question on the Vote now under discussion.
THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON), with reference to the Report which the noble Lord had alluded to, said, it was necessary to exercise great care and discrimination as to the documents laid before the House. Although the noble Lord's questions respecting the constitution of the Board of Admiralty were not quite germane to this Vote, ho thought it right to reply to them. The Controller was placed on the Board some time ago, and his appointment, which was to last for five years, was supposed to be independent of other changes in the constitution of the Board. He must adhere to that rule, and consequently Admiral Brandreth would continue at the Board. Mr. Rendel was placed on the Board by his Predecessor. In his capacity as a civil member of the Board he did great service; but it was necessary for him to be absent from England during a considerable portion of the year, and he therefore felt it his duty to resign the position which he recently held. But, in a friendly communication addressed to himself, Mr. Rendel said he should always be glad to place his services at the disposal of the Admiralty in regard to any questions on which they might think fit to consult him. His noble Friend must not assume that Party politics had anything to do with the constitution of the present Board. In point of fact, he was not acquainted with the political opinions of any of their professional advisers, and he had been fortunate enough to secure the services of Admiral Hood, Admiral Hoskins, and Captain Codrington, who could speak with as much experience as any three men in Her Majesty's Naval Service.
Resolution agreed to.
Resolutions 5 to 13, inclusive, agreed to.
(14.)"That a sum, not exceeding £830,400, he granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of Half-Pay, Reserved, and Retired Pay to Officers of the Navy and Marines, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 188b'."
Resolution read a second time.
LORD HENRY LENNOXsaid, he wished to refer to the reinstatement of Hobart Pasha on the Retired List. Hobart Pasha had rendered eminent services to this country. In 1868, when a captain, he entered the Service of the Porte, whereupon he had to resign his position in the English Fleet. In 1874 he was reinstated at the request of the Earl of Derby, on account of his distinguished services to his country; but in 1877, he having again joined the Turkish Fleet, he was once more struck off the English Navy List, on account of the breaking out of the Russo-Turkish War, because England could not retain the services of an officer who was serving with a country at war with one of her Allies. He had, however, recently left the Turkish Service, and, on the recommendation of Earl Granville and Lord Northbrook, he had been reinstated; and the practice of reinstating men in his position at the request of the Foreign Office was by no means new, unusual, or unprecedented. There were precedents for this course in the case of Sir Charles Napier and Admiral Sartorius. From his knowledge of Hobart Pasha's career, he could say that, no matter what uniform the Admiral wore, he was always most anxious to do everything he could to promote the interests of England, and to serve her in every way. Having been the first instrument to remove him from the Navy, and having watched his career, he desired to say that he thought Admiral Hobart deserved well of his country, and was worthy of the retired allowance which he had obtained by reinstatement.
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, he was surprised that they had been told nothing with regard to the reinstatement of Hobart Pasha; no reason whatever had been given for it. The more he looked at this case the less he liked it. He expressed an earnest hope that before the Vote was passed some explanation should be forthcoming from either of the Front Benches; and with the object of obtaining that explanation he begged to move that the Vote be reduced by £280, being the amount of the pay that would be received by Admiral Hobart Pasha for 280 days.
Amendment proposed, to leave out"£830,100," in order to insert

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"£880,120,"—(Sir George Campbell,)— instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That'£830,400' stand part of the said Resolution."
THE FIRST LORDsaid, that the understanding yesterday was that the Vote should be brought on for discussion; but he had nothing more to say than he said yesterday. Hobart Pasha was reinstated by an Order in Council before the present Government came into Office; and that was done after consideration by two leading Members of the late Government, Lord Granville and Lord Northbrook. If the hon. Member moved for the production of the Papers that had passed on the subject between the Admiralty and the Foreign Office he should have no objection; but they did not state much more than that application had been made. The fact was that Hobart Pasha was in the receipt of £1 a-day in 1877. But, in consequence of the war between Russia and Turkey, he, being in the employment of Turkey, was struck off the Navy List. There was no question that if Turkey had been at the time our Ally in war Hobart Pasha would have retained his rank as Admiral in our Navy. He had recently left the Turkish Service; and therefore the First Lord of the Admiralty, after consultation with the Foreign Secretary, thought there was no reason why he should not be restored to the position he held in 1877, and he would draw no more pay than he did in 1877. When two statesmen of great experience, after fully considering the circumstances of the case, had arrived at the conclusion that Hobart Pasha ought to be reinstated, if the House were to override that decision it would be a great slur on the gallant officer; and therefore he hoped that the House would support Her Majesty's Government in asking them not to overthrow the conclusion at which Lord Granville and Lord Northbrook had arrived.
MR. CAUSTONsaid, that after the observations of the noble Lord (Lord George Hamilton) he really thought the House would be glad to be placed in possession of further information on the subject. As he understood the noble Lord, it appeared that the gallant Admiral, when we were likely to go to war with Turkey, preferred to give up his
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commission in the British Navy. [Cries of "No, no !""] That was what he understood the noble Lord to say.
THE FIRST LORDsaid, he was afraid the hon. Member's history was a little at fault. What he said was, that it was in 1877 that Hobart Pasha's name was removed from the Navy List. We were not at all likely to go to war with Turkey at that time.
MR. CAUSTONsaid, he begged to apologize if he were a little wrong; but without reference to the date he understood the noble Lord to say that we were near a war with Turkey. [Cries of "No, no !"] Then he had misunderstood the noble Lord.
SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he would speak with every respect of Hobart Pasha and the services he had rendered; but in his opinion there was a good deal in what had been said by the hon. Baronet (Sir George Campbell). There was a great deal of ambiguity in the matter; but the responsibility rested altogether with the late Government. Last night he had challenged the hon. Member for Scarborough (Mr. Caine) sitting on the Bench opposite, and ho told them that he knew nothing about the matter. The noble Lord now told them that Hobart Pasha had left the Turkish Service. Hobart Pasha, however, with whom he was intimately acquainted, had gave him to understand, only a fortnight ago, that he was still in the Turkish Service, if he (Sir Robert Peel) was not much mistaken. The noble Lord to-night said that the services of Hobart Pasha had been very distinguished to this country. What were his services to this country. As a matter of fact, ho had never been a Vice Admiral, he had never been even a captain in the Service of the Queen. The last command he held in this Service was as Commander of the Foxhoundm the years 1861 to 1863, and what the late Government had determined to do therefore, and what the present Government were going to sanction, was to make Commander Hobart Pasha a Vice Admiral per saltum and give him the position and pay of a retired Vice Admiral.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. W. H. SMITH)asked if he might interrupt the right hon. Gentleman for one moment? The matter had nothing to do with the present Government. The reinstatement was done by an Order in

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Council under the late Government, and the present Government had no power in the matter whatever.
SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he quite understood that, and he had said over and over again that the held the late Government responsible, and he wished to enter his earnest protest against the step they had taken. He thought, and he maintained, that the hon. Gentleman opposite ought certainly to give them some explanation on the matter, because there was no doubt whatever that some correspondence had taken place on the subject. He did not think that any Foreign Secretary should deal with such matters as this, which solely affected the Admiralty.
MR. CAINEsaid, he could do nothing further than repeat what he had said yesterday, and which was very little. If he were still at the Admiralty, or had access to the Admiralty Papers, he would be able to discover what had taken place between Lord North brook and Lord Granville, who, he believed, were jointly responsible for this grant. These matters did not come before the Civil Lord of the Admiralty, however, and he had not seen the Papers on the subject. He had not had time to consult Lord Granville or Lord Northbrook, and, consequently, he did not know the motives which had induced them to recommend that a pension should be granted to Hobart Pasha. If hon. Members wished any further information, they had better have a Question put to the late Foreign Secretary in the other House, who, no doubt, would be able to say what reason the Foreign Office had for pressing the claim. He was sorry he could give no further information.
MR. RAMSAYsaid, he would not venture to state that the reasons were not quite sufficent to warrant such a pension being given to Hobart Pasha. His services as Commander might have warranted such a thing; but he thought they ought to have some evidence that it was so. It ought to be clearly proved, moreover, that he was no longer in the Service of the Turkish Government. If the hon. Member carried his point to a division, he (Mr. Ramsay) would vote against the pension.
MR. TOMLINSONsaid, he wanted to know how this pension came into the
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present Estimates at all? He understood it was only granted on the 24th of June, and he should therefore like to know how it came into these Estimates? It might come into a Supplementary Estimate this year, or the ordinary Estimates next year; but he could not see how the pension could be affected by the reduction of this Vote.
THE SECRETARY TO THE ADMIRALTY (Mr. RITCHIE)said, it was explained yesterday that it was clear that no provision was made in the present Estimates for any pension to Hobart Pasha. The Estimates had been prepared a long time before the decision to reinstate Hobart Pasha was arrived at. There had been some attempt made to saddle the present Government with part of the responsibility of this Vote. [Cries of "No, no!"] Well, the last speaker had held them responsible for endeavouring to press on the Committee the Vote for Hobart Pasha's pension.
MR. RAMSAYpointed out that what he did say was that the present Government were responsible for pressing on in Committee the Vote which contained the pension. What he contended was, not that they were responsible for the granting of the pension or the pension itself, but that they were responsible for pressing the House now to pass the Vote.
THE SECRETARYsaid, what the hon. Member had said was that the Government were responsible for pressing this reinstatement on the House. Now, what was the proposal before the House? It was that they should reduce this Vote by the amount of Hobart Pasha's pension. There might be a surplus on this Vote which would be sufficient for the whole or partial payment of the pension; but the Government did not know that this would be so. Therefore, it would be impossible to stop the pension out of that Vote. The sole purpose of the Admiralty had been to allow the discussion on this Vote. The real facts of the case were these. Admiral Hobart Pasha, having been reinstated by the late Government, would the present Government be justified in inflicting such an indignity upon that gallant officer as to again remove his name? While the Government had taken no

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part in the original reinstatement of Hobart Paslia, they were not prepared to take upon themselves the responsibility of advising Her Majesty to once more remove his name.
MR. COURTNEYsaid, he could not assent to the financial view of the question which had just been presented to the House by the Secretary to the Admiralty (Mr. Ritchie). It was, of course, true that the pension was not included in this Vote when the Estimate was settled; but it was chargeable upon it, and a surplus might be available for it. Even if there was not sufficient surplus from this Vote, they would be able to make use of a surplus in any other of the Army Votes to make up the pension, so that the question of paying the pension could be legitimately raised on this Vote. It had been said, however, quite truly, that the present Government had not reinstated Hobart Pasha; and, therefore, he thought it was hard to ask the House either to ratify the Vote or refuse it. The hon. Member said that they could not ask him to undo what had been done. That was true; but the fact was that they did not know anything about the matter. The proper course, in his opinion, would be to adjourn the discussion until they could get some information on the subject from some Member of the Foreign Office or of the late Government. He, therefore, begged to move the adjournment of the debate in order to give time for some Member connected with the Foreign Office under the late Government to be present to give some explanation.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—{Mr. Courtney.)
THE FIRST LORDsaid, he would not object to the proposition of the hon. Member for Liskeard (Mr. Courtney). He had stated to the House all that he knew upon the subject; but he was bound to say that he did not know that his information was very accurate. It was possibly the right course to pursue to reduce a Vote because they believed somebody had been unreasonably granted a pension by an Order in Council. Therefore, it might be as well to adjourn the debate.
MR. BUCHANANasked if the noble Lord would produce the Correspondence?
THE FIRST LORDsaid, there was no Correspondence that he knew of. He had no information with regard to it.
LORD HENRY LENNOXwanted to know for what purpose they were going to postpone the matter, after the First Lord of the Admiralty (Lord George Hamilton) had stated he had no further information to give? What day did they intend to postpone it to?
MR. ILLINGWORTHsaid, he considered that there was a very important principle involved. They did not know what the pension was for, nor whether the man was entitled to it, except that he had occupied an inferior position in the English Service. It would be a grave scandal if, when the country was already burdened with a large number of pensioners, they should vote him a pension as a Vice Admiral in our Service.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHE-QHER (Sir MICHAEL HICKS - BEACH)said, their object in agreeing to postpone the Vote was to enable some Member of the late Government to be present to explain the circumstances under which the reinstatement of Admiral Hobart was made. The question had been raised not on account of anything that the present Government had done, or for which they were responsible. All they had to do was to take up the Vote and pass it. What they felt was, that when this Vote came on again, that some Member of the late Government, who was cognizant of the circumstances, should come forward and explain matters. If no further explanation was forthcoming, however, then they trusted that the House would not further postpone the question.
Question put, and agreed to.
Debate adjourned till Monday next.
Subsequent Resolutions agreed to.

FEDERAL COUNCIL OF AUSTRALASIA [Lords] BILL.— [BILL 165.]
(Colonel Stanley.)

SECOND READING.
Order for Second Reading read.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Colonel STANLEY): Sir, the Bill I have the honour to ask the House to read a second time is one

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which, as the House is probably aware, was introduced in "another place" by my noble Relative and Predecessor in Office. I do not propose to enter into any discussion of controversial matter; for having in view the time of year in which we approach the subject, the House will, perhaps, allow me to suggest that if the second reading is taken tonight, we should take the Committee stage of the Bill at such a time as will give a fair opportunity for discussion. I think that course would be rather for the convenience of the House. Hon. Members will see that this is merely an enabling Bill based upon certain Resolutions adopted by the Colonies after considerable discussion, and after the subject had been thoroughly threshed out. It was in pursuance of the Resolution of 1883 that my noble Relative introduced this Bill, which gives power to the Colonies to form a Federal Council for certain purposes, which purposes, without the sanction of the Imperial Legislature, would be ultra vires. I think there is practically no difference of opinion on the principle of the Bill; and although I must admit that considerable discussion may hereafter arise as to one clause, I would ask the House to postpone that discussion until the Committee stage, one of the reasons for that course being that certain Papers are not yet in the hands of hon. Members. I may mention that one document which reached me to-day on coming down to the House contains information which, I think, the House should bo possessed of before going into this question. Without further remarks, therefore, I make this appeal on the understanding that a fair opportunity will be given for discussion on the Bill on going into Committee. In these circumstances, I propose to name this day week for the Motion for going into Committee, by which time I will do my best to have the Papers printed and in the hands of hon. Members.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—{Colonel Stanley.)
SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, that, under the circumstances, he should not object to the course proposed by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, although he had a Notice on the Paper
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with respect to the Bill. He doubted, however, that it could be said that this Bill was wanted, or was approved by some of the Colonies. There was one clause in the Bill of which he certainly very much disapproved; but he understood from the statement of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman that the House would be free to discuss the clauses, and accept or reject them as they thought fit.
MR. HEALYsaid, it appeared to him that a Bill of this kind was not likely to improve the state of things in the Colonies, where questions sometimes arose even graver than those, he would not say between England and Scotland, but between England and Ireland. The Bill might be an admirable measure as far as it went, but he believed it was brought in without any distinct desire on the part of some of the Colonies. It was all very well to have a Federation of the Colonies; but it was when any of the States desired to leave the Federation that the crux would come. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman said that this was merely an enabling Bill; but if the time should come when some of the States wanted to secede there would then, perhaps, arise a state of civil war, and that he regarded as the worst thing in connection with a Bill of this character. Of course, ho did not say that the Bill would lead to that; but having regard to the state of affairs in the Colonies, the immense distances between them, uncovered by railways as in the United States, he scarcely believed that a Bill of this kind could be a success. He thought Her Majesty's Government should take a high standpoint in the matter. For his own part, he had no objection to the Motion of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman, and ho sincerely hoped that the measure would be successful.
MR. BIGGARsaid, his objection to. the Bill was that it was permissive only, and he regarded the time spent upon it as time wasted. Unless the Government were prepared with some well-considered plan, he thought it would be very much better that they should not enter into legislation of this sort.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday next.

LABOURERS (IRELAND) (No. 2) BILL.
(Mr. Campbell-Bannerman, Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland.)

[BILL 68.] SECOND READING.
Order for Second Reading read.
MR. HEALYsaid, that opposite to the title of this Bill he found a block by their distinguished Friend the hon. and learned Member for Bridport (Mr. Warton). The Government having made great progress to-night, he thought the time had arrived when some pressure should be brought to bear on the hon. and learned Member for Bridport and the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Tomlin-son) to induce them not to block Bills on the Order Book.
MR. WARTONsaid, as the Government had adopted the Bill, he should withdraw his opposition.
Second Reading deferred till To-morrow.

POLICE BILL.— [BILL 113.]
(Mr. Henry H. Fowler, Secretary Sir William Harcourt, The Lord Advocate, Mr. Hibbert.)

SECOND READING. BILL WITHDRAWN.
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Order for the Second Reading be discharged."
MR. H. H. FOWLERsaid, that before the Order was discharged he would like, as he had the honour of introducing the Bill to the House, to express his regret that the Government had not seen their way to include it in the non-contentious list of measures. The Bill had received the approval of both Parties in the House, and the only possible contentious clause was that relating to Government contribution, and that could only come into operation when the county and borough funds became absolutely insolvent.
Question put, and agreed to.
Order discharged; Bill withdrawn.

INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (WALES) BILL.— [BILL 195.]
(Mr. Mundella, Mr. Osborne Morgan, Lord Richard Grosvenor.)

SECOND READING. BILL WITHDRAWN.
Order for Second Reading read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Order for the Second Reading be discharged."
SIR CHARLES W.DILKEsaid, that he and his hon. Friends would offer no opposition to the discharge of this Order, although they must express their extreme regret that the Government could not proceed with the measure.
Question put, and agreed to.
Order discharged; Bill withdrawn.

COPYHOLD ENFRANCHISEMENT BILL.
(Mr. Waugh, Mr. George Howard, Mr. Stafford Howard, Mr. Ainsworth, Mr. Ferguson.)

[BILL 26.] COMMITTEE.
Bill considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Clause 1 (Lord, admitting or enrolling a tenant after 31st December, 1885, to give notice of enfranchisement, and in default land not to be subject to fines, &c).
MR. J. W. LOWTHERbegged to move that the Chairman report Progress, and ask leave to sit again; and he wished to avail himself of the opportunity to appeal to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Waugh) not to proceed further with the Bill. It seemed to him that the Bill would make a complete revolution in the land system so far as copyholds were concerned; in the course of a few years it would entirely destroy the copyhold system throughout the country. Under such circumstances, it would be the height of folly to attempt to carry the Bill this Session. Contentious matter was involved in almost every clause; and, besides, if the great questions referring to minerals were to be decided in the light of Amendments which had been placed on the Paper by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cricklade (Mr. Story-Maskelyne), the possession] of mineral property would be transferred from one class of the community to another. He, therefore, trusted that the House would consider this as one of those measures which might very well be left over for the consideration of the new Parliament.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. J. W. Lowther.)
MR. WAUGHsaid, he was sorry he could not accede to the proposition of the hon. Member. The Bill did not introduce any new matter at all, but

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simply carried out the recommendations of the Select Committee, and it did so in the most gentle manner possible. The Bill had been read a second time several times this Parliament, and it had been before a Select Committee of which the hon. Member for Rutland (Mr. J. W. Lowther) was a Member. It was carefully considered by the Committee, and had now reached the Committee stage in the House. He hoped the Committee would consent to proceed with the Bill.
MR. HALSEYsaid, he would join in the appeal of his hon. Friend (Mr. J. W. Lowther) to the hon. Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Waugh) not to proceed further with the Bill. It was perfectly true, as the hon. Gentleman said, that the Bill had passed its second reading, and had now got into Committee; but it passed the second reading on the night Parliament re-assembled after the Christmas Recess. No one anticipated it would come on; indeed, the hon. Member (Mr. Waugh) was engaged elsewhere, and someone else had to move the second reading. The same thing took place with regard to getting the Speaker out of the Chair a few days ago. The Bill came on during the Ministerial crisis, a time when, as a rule, Business was not taken. The Bill would make important changes. He supposed he must not go into the merits of the measure on the Motion to report Progress; and therefore he would content himself by saying that as they had seen several important Bills withdrawn, and as it was understood that the Session was to be wound up as quickly as possible, it seemed monstrous that a Bill like this, involving the whole principle of copyhold property, should be proceeded with. He, therefore, trusted the Committee would consent to report Progress.
MR. STORY-MASKELYNEsaid, he had put down several important Amendments to the Bill; but he did not think they ought to be discussed in the absence of the hon. Gentleman who had given so much attention to the subject, the hon. Member for West Somerset (Mr. Elton). He (Mr. Story-Maske-lyne), therefore, begged to support the proposal that the debate be adjourned.
MR. ARTHUR ARNOLDsaid, ho hoped the hon. Member for Rutland (Mr. J. W. Lowther) would go to a division, because it would then be seen that nearly every Member who objected to
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the Bill had spoken in the present debate.
MR. TOMLINSONsaid, that if they were to have a division on the question of reporting Progress, they ought to know exactly in what position the supporters of the Bill placed themselves. The hon. Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Waugh) had said that this Bill was referred to a Select Committee, and that that Committee considered its provisions very carefully. He (Mr. Tomlinson) believed that the Bill which was read a second time was the Bill which came from the Select Committee; but that, if the Amendments which had been suggested were introduced, its character would be considerably changed. He would like to know whether the Committee was intended to sit on the Bill as a Court of Appeal from the Select Committee to which the measure was referred? If they wore to sit in such a character, he did not think they ought to continue the discussion in the absence of the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Somerset (Mr. Elton). He understood that the opinion of his hon. Friend was that the Bill which passed the Select Committee would prove a satisfactory measure; but that, if the Amendments on the Paper were adopted, provisions would be introduced which were inconsistent with his view, and inconsistent, he (Mr. Tomlinson) thought, with the view of the majority of the Select Committee. If the hon. Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Waugh) was ready to treat the Bill on the lines on which the Select Committee treated it, objection need not be raised to proceeding now with the discussion.
MR. H. H. FOWLERsaid, ho agreed that it would be extremely unwise for this Committee to reconstruct the Bill after it had passed a Select Committee. He supported the Bill on the assumption that the recommendations of the Committee were strictly carried out, and that the House were to accept the Bill as it was passed by the Select Committee. But that was a different question to that raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Rutland (Mr. J. W. Lowther), because ho had endeavoured to get rid of the Bill altogether. He commended to hon. Gentlemen opposite the consideration that this was a great reform in the real property law of the country, a reform which had been advocated on every platform throughout the

227
length and breadth of the land, a reform which was advocated by men totally irrespective of politics. The Motion that the Speaker leave the Chair was made by one of the staunchest supporters of the Government, the hon. Member for South Leicestershire (Mr. Pell), who, in making the proposition, said the Bill would effect a most desirable and salutary reform. To get rid of the Bill altogether after it had passed the ordeal of a Select Committee, and composed of some of the best real property lawyers in the House, would be most unfair. If the Bill was wrong, and ought to be thrown out, let it be thrown out fairly, and not by a Bide wind. If it was true that the hon. Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Waugh) wished to materially alter the Bill, he (Mr. H. H. Fowler) would certainly support the hon. Member for Preston (Mr. Tomlinson) in resisting the Amendments.
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-SUEY (Sir HENRY HOLLAND)said, the Government did not oppose the Bill as it was passed by the Select Committee; but the difficulty they felt to-night was that the Amendments of the hon. Member for Cockermouth were many in number, and required very careful consideration. It was doubtful whether that consideration could be given at this time, and without that consideration they could not feel sure that the Bill would not be substantially altered by the Amendments. He wished it to be distinctly understood that the Government did not oppose the Bill as it emerged from the Select Committee; on the contrary, they were prepared to support the principle of facilitating the enfranchisement of copyholds. He should vote against the Motion to report Progress.
Question put.
The Committee divided; —Ayes 27; Noes 86: Majority 59.—(Div. List, No. 215.)
MR. ONSLOWsaid, he begged to move that the Chairman do now leave the Chair. He might say, in regard to the Bill, that he had not gone very carefully into it; but what he deprecated was the line of action Her Majesty's Government had taken to-night. In the first place, they had deserted their Friends, who had taken a deep interest in the measure. ["No, no!"] Eight hon.
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Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench said "No;" but he said most distinctly to the Homo Secretary that the Government had deserted their Friends, who took a great interest in this Bill. What did they see? Why, this curious thing. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Cockermouth had certain Amendments in the Bill. The Government did not know much about the matter, and the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary bad gone over to the other side of the House to consult the hon. Member for Cockermouth and other Gentlemen interested in the Bill, and was told that certain Amendments were to be dropped. That was the way the measure was to be passed by this Government, who said that they would not undertake any Bills of a contentious character. The Bill was decidedly of a contentious character; and he was surprised that Her Majesty's Government, after the promise they had given, had deserted their Friends. He did not like a Bill of this importance to pass by Amendments and letters and communications being bandied about between the Front Opposition Bench and the Members of Her Majesty's Government. Surely it would not prejudice any of the interests concerned if the Bill were to be postponed for a few days. On a question of principle he moved that the Chairman do now leave the Chair.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Onslow.)
MR. SALT: Has the hon. Member for Cockermouth dropped his Amendments'? —because I, with a great many other Members of the House, am not aware of the fact.
MR. WAUGH: Yes. I may say that four of these Amendments are Amendments made at the request of Members sitting on the opposite side of the House. Two are Government Amendments with regard to Treasury matters, suggested by the Land Commission. They are not my Amendments at all. I am satisfied with the Bill as it stands.
MR. J. W. LOWTHERsaid that, before the hon. Gentleman (Sir Henry Holland) rose, he should like to ask the hon. Gentleman the Member for Crick-lade (Mr. Story-Maskelyne) what course he proposed to take with regard to his Amendments? It was not the Amend-

229
ments of the hon. Member for Cocker-mouth (Mr. Waugh.) that he (Mr. Lowther) objected to so much as those of the hon. Member for Cricklade, which would offect an enormous transfer of property from one class of the community to another. In the absence of both the Law Officers of the Crown and the two late Law Officers, and of the hon. Member for West Somerset (Mr. Elton), he thought they would find themselves landed in great difficulty if they were to attempt to go into these intricate questions affecting real property law.
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREASUBYsaid, ho wished to observe that, so far as regarded the discussion of the Amendments, the hon. Member for West Somerset (Mr. Elton), who probably knew more about the law affecting real property than anyone else in the House, had entirely agreed to the Bill as it came from the Select Committee. Those who were prepared to support the Bill as it came from the Select Committee were not prepared to support these Amendments. The Amendments objected to having been publicly withdrawn, and the Amendments of the Government proposed by the Land Commission having been accepted by the hon. Member for Cockermouth, he really thought the Committee should go on with the Bill.
MR. STORY-MASKELYNEsaid, the best answer he could give to the hon. Member for Rutlandshire (Mr. J. W. Lowther) was that, whilst the hon. Member said his (Mr. Story Maske-lyne's) Amendments proposed a great transfer of property from one class of the community to another, the view taken of those Amendments by his hon. Friend on his right (Mr. Waugh), who brought the Bill forward, was that they would effect no such transfer at all. The law at present was clear as to the questions that he brought forward, and all he asked was that Parliament should recognize the law as it at present stood. There were, no doubt, questions that might be disputed as to the nature of the proprietorship by lords and possession by tenants in some parts of the country, for the reason that as yet no legal decisions had been given in regard to the kind of tenures he alluded to. Where there had been actions at law, they had not been brought to a conclusion. No one knew what would be the
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decision of the Courts of Law on certain points—particularly in regard to mineral rights.
MR. TOMLINSONwished to know whether the discussion could be allowed to digress into a debate as to the law on the question?
THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member for Cricklade (Mr. Story-Maskelyne) is entitled to answer a question; but, of course, he cannot describe the law on the subject on the Motion that the Chairman do now leave the Chair.
MR. ARTHUR ARNOLDsaid, he would suggest to the hon. Member for Cricklade that he should withdraw his Amendments for the present, and bring them up again on Report.
MR. STORY-MASKELYNEsaid, he did not see what object would be gained by following that course. If the question was to be decided at all it would have to be discussed—it would have to be debated in Committee or on Report. It could be just as well discussed now as on the next stage; but, of course, if it were more convenient to hon. Members to take the discussion on Report he would be willing to acquiesce. If the House did not want the Amendments at all it would be as well to take the discussion on them now.
THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPABTMENT (Sir E. ASSHETON CROSS): When we come to those Amendments on which there is a difference of opinion they should be put off to Report. I understood from the hon. Member for Cockormouth (Mr. Waugh) that he was not going to press the Amendments. I asked him openly, and he said he was not.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: I would appeal to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cricklade not to press his Amendments to-night, and to allow the Bill to pass through Committee. No doubt, on Report, ho will be able to come to some arrangement with the hon. Member for West Somerset with regard to the Amendments.
MR. J. W. LOWTHERsaid, he did not consider the arrangement proposed by the right hon. Baronet at all satisfactory. From the few remarks the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cricklade had addressed to them his Amendments appeared to be and were of a very important character. The hon. Member said they would not alter the law as it at present stood; but one of the Amend-

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ments, as it appeared on the Paper, would repeal the 48th. section of the Land Act, and thereby make a great change in the law. He would really appeal to the hon. Gentleman the Member for Cricklade, and ask him whether he thought they could proceed with a Bill of this kind this Session? The short discussion they had already had showed that it was of a highly contentious character. Several of the clauses would be fought at considerable length; and he would appeal to the hon. Member whether he really thought they would be able to pass the measure into law in the present Session? If the hon. Gentleman went to a division on the Motion that the Chairman do leave the Chair he (Mr. J. W. Lowther) should certainly support him.
Question put.
The Committee divided: — Ayes 16; Noes 86: Majority 70. —(Div. List, No. 216.)
MR. STORY-MASKELYNE: I beg to withdraw the Amendments I have put on the Paper for Committee. I hope to have an opportunity of bringing them forward on Report.
MR. TOMLINSONsaid, he must complain of the course taken by the hon. Member. It amounted almost to a breach of agreement. He understood they had voted against reporting Progress on the understanding that the hon. Member might have waived his right of moving the Amendments he had on the Paper. Now, the hon. Gentleman wished merely to postpone the Amendments with the view of bringing them up again on the Report.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, it was impossible to take away the liberty of a Member to move an Amendment or postpone it as he thought fit; and whatever arrangement might be made with a Member another Member might not be a party to it. A great many Members were anxious that the Bill should pass; and it was, therefore, obvious that to attain the desired end they should not go against the wish of a large section of the Committee.
THE CHAIRMAN: Does the hon. Member for Cockermouth (Mr. Waugh) move any of his Amendments?
MR. WAUGH: NO, Sir; none of them.
Clause agreed to.
Clauses 2 to 49, inclusive, agreed to, with Amendments.
Clause 50 (For accelerating enfranchisement by manors).
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."
MR. HALSEYsaid, he would appeal to the hon. Member in charge of the Bill to report Progress. It was monstrous, after what they had already agreed to, to ask them to proceed further that night. It amounted to this—that five tenants at will, whose united quit rents might be under 6d. a-year, would be able to combine under this Bill, and have an inquiry held, which the lord of the manor would have to pay for, because he did not see that there was any other arrangement provided for in the Bill. These five men could then proceed to upset the whole of a manor extending, perhaps, over ten miles. The tenants on such a manor as that which he had in his mind might extend over a vast tract of country, and the great majority of them would not hear of this inquiry, and would not come up to vote, unless the lord of the manor went to the expense of bringing them up. The whole manor might thus be upset by five men who had no stake or interest in the matter. He would ask the Government to strike this clause out altogether, or to report Progress, and take time to consider it. He could not believe that a Government of honour, bearing such a high reputation as the present Government did, would consent to pass such a clause as this.
MR. WAUGHsaid, this clause in Committee had been drawn almost entirely by the hon. Member for West Somerset (Mr. Elton), and he believed that hon. Gentleman still adhered to it.
Question put.
The Committee divided: —Ayes 91; Noes 7: Majority 84. — (Div. List, No. 217.)
Remaining Clauses, with Schedule and Preamble, agreed to.
Bill, as amended, to be considered upon Tuesday next.

PUBLIC HEALTH (MEMBERS AND OFFICERS) BILL.— [BILL 114.]
(Sir John Kennaway, Mr. Long, Mr. Cowen.)

COMMITTEE.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Sir John Kennaway.)
MR. BIGGARsaid, that there had been no discussion on this Bill; and the hon. Baronet notwithstanding rose at that hour of the morning, without giving the slightest explanation of its merits or provisions, to move that the Speaker leave the Chair. He was surprised that the Government should support the Bill, because its object was to cnable members of Public Health Boards to perpetrate jobs amongst themselves. Under the circumstances, he felt it his duty to move the adjournment of the debate.
MR. HEALYsaid, he thought the House was greatly indebted to the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) for making this Motion, entirely in the interests of the British taxpayer, seeing that the Bill did not apply to Ireland. His hon. Friend had always been a consistent supporter of economical principles, and the course he had just taken showed that he was absolutely disinterested in this matter. He begged to second the Motion of his hon. Friend.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Big gar.')
SIR JOHN KENNAWAYsaid, in his opinion the Bill had been sufficiently discussed last Wednesday. It was a Bill to remove a great hardship upon a deserving body of men—clerks and officers of Local Boards—who were at present subject to penalties on the information of informers, which penalties could be recovered in two places. The Bill had received the assent of both Front Benches; it was a most important measure, and it would be a great loss if it were not passed into law during the present Session.
THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR)said, as the hon. Member for Cavan had made a Motion which precluded any Member from speaking on the Bill, ho hoped that he would, at all events, withdraw it, and hear what his hon. Friend had to say on the subject, and then, if he thought it necessary, he could renew his Motion.
Question put.
The House divided: —Ayes 12; Noes 80: Majority 68.—(Div. List, No. 217.)
Original Question again proposed.
SIR JOHN KENNAWAYsaid, if his Motion for the Speaker leaving the Chair were agreed to, he did not propose to take the clauses to-night; they could stand over for future discussion. He pointed out that members and officers of Public Boards sometimes contracted with their Boards for the sale of land, and under the Municipal Corporations Act they were under no disability in that respect. He contended, therefore, that the same facility ought to be given in this case. The Bill proposed to relieve members of Public Health Boards from the disabilities under which they suffered in case any contract was made by the Boards of which they were members with any public Company. The officers in question were, for instance, now subject to great inconvenience if they were members of a Gas Company in the district.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Sir John Kennaway.)
MR. COURTNEYsaid, he had been waiting in the House for two hours solely on account of this Bill, in the hope that with certain modifications it might get through Committee. The course proposed appeared to him rather inconvenient.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he must take upon himself the blame for what the hon. Member for Liskeard complained of. He had suggested to the hon. Baronet that he might take this course.
MR. HEALYthought it would be a great mistake if Progress was not reported. The Bill was introduced for the purpose of allowing members of Boards to sell their property to one another; and for that reason, if for no other, he contended that they should report Progress.
SIR CHARLES W.DILKEsaid, he had suggested to the hon. Baronet that he should put down the Bill for Monday.
Question put, and agreed to.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

FACTORY ACTS (EXTENSION TO SHOPS) BILL.— [BILL 23.]
(Sir John Luhbock, Mr. Hurt, Lord Randolph Churchill, Mr. Pell.)

SECOND BEADING.
Order for Second Beading read.
SIR JOHN LUBBOCK, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the object of this Bill was to extend to shops that provision of the Factory Acts which provided that no young person under 18 years of age should be made to work more than 12 hours a-day. He hoped the House would consent to the passing of this Bill, which he was sure would prolong the lives of many thousands of persons.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—{Sir John Lulbock.)
THE UNDER SECRETARY or STATE FOR THE HOME DEPAET-MENT (Mr. STUART-WORTLEY)said, the Government were willing to assent to the Bill being read a second time on the understanding that it be referred to a Select Committee. The Government were not to be understood to pledge themselves to the principle of the Bill.
SIR ROBERT PEELsaid, he thought there was some misunderstanding. He had a conference just now with the Home Secretary (Sir E. Assheton Cross) and his hon. Friend the Member for the University of London (Sir John Lubbock); and it was agreed that if the House would consent to the second reading of the Bill now, and the Committee stage was put down for Tuesday, the Government would offer no opposition. At this late hour (2 o'clock) he would not detain the House; but he endorsed what had been said by his hon. Friend (Sir John Lubbock). He had waited five hours to support the hon. Baronet, simply because he was convinced the Bill was of national importance. It affected nearly 500,000 young persons in the country who worked 13 or 15 hours a-day, and who were often kept in very unwholesome and insalubrious localities for that work. The Bill would really do charitable and good work for young persons who were not able to defend their own interests. All that was asked was that Parliament should extend the Factory Acts—the great Act of 1847, which applied solely
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to factories, and the Act of the right hon. Gentleman the present Home Secretary, which was passed in 1878—and by that means relieve a large number of young persons from the burdens under which they now laboured. He hoped the House would allow the Bill to be read a second time. He was convinced, on the assurance of the Home Secretary, that the Government would not offer any opposition if the Committee was fixed for Tuesday.
THE SECRETARY TO THE TREA-SUEY (Sir HENRY HOLLAND)said, that if the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of London would fix the Committee for Tuesday the Government would offer no opposition to the second reading. The Government must, however, reserve their opinion on the subject.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill read a second time, and committed for Tuesday next.

PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (CORRUPT PRACTICES) BILL.— [BILL 148.]
(Mr. Richard Paget, Sir Joseph Pease, Mr. Bulwer.)

COMMITTEE.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. R. R. Paget.)
MR. HEALYsaid, the Bill was read a second time without a single word of explanation. He had not had time to read the Bill, and therefore he asked the hon. Gentleman (Mr. E. H. Paget) to state what the Bill proposed.
MR. R. H. PAGETsaid, this was a Bill of one clause to remove the ambiguity which existed in the law as it at present stood. It provided that a person might absent himself from his employment on the day of poll to record his vote without any deduction being made from his salary or wages. It was an unopposed Bill; it was brought before the Attorney General (Sir Henry James) of the late Government, and it had the approval of the present Attorney General (Sir Richard Webster). On the back of it was the name of the hon. Baronet the Member for South Durham (Sir Joseph Pease), and he (Mr. E. H. Paget) had not heard a single word of opposition raised to its principle. It

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contained provisions to prevent any possible misuse of the permission to be given by an employer to his servant to attend at the polling booth to give his vote. The permission must be granted to everyone in a man's employ; indeed, the measure, as it stood, was entirely free from any Party politics. It had been virtually assented to by the late Attorney General, and he (Mr. B. H. Paget) hoped that, under the circumstances, the House would permit the Speaker to leave the Chair.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, the hon. Member had stated that the Bill was assented to by the late Attorney General. He did not know whether the hon. Gentleman had seen the right hon. and learned Gentleman within the last day or two; but his (Sir Charles W. Dilke's) impression was that his right hon. and learned Friend had some doubt about the Bill. He (Sir Charles W. Dilke) was favourable to the Bill, and he should offer no opposition to it to-night; but he would like to ask, on behalf of his right hon. and learned Friend the late Attorney General, that the clauses should not be considered in Committee until Monday, in order to give the late Attorney General time to put down what Amendments he might think necessary.
MR. LYULPH STANLEYsaid, he thought the Bill would need careful consideration, in order that care was had that all servants should be treated equally. There was just the danger of a person giving leave to a servant to claim his wages in a way that the servant might not be able to take advantage of it. Unless they were careful, the leave might take the form of a bribe.
Question put, and agreed to.
Bill considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)
Clause 1 (Elector to attend poll without deduction of wages).
MR. HEALYsaid, it had hitherto been the custom to make Corrupt Practices Acts annual Acts, and to put them in the Continuance Bill. He would ask the Members of the Government to consider what was the good of putting Bills in the Expiring Laws Continuance Bill when, in point of fact, they could not be amended Would it not be well to codify the law relating to corrupt practices, and to make the Acts permanent?
MR. R. H. PAGETsaid, there was, perhaps, something in the point raised by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Oldham (Mr. Lyulph Stanley). He did not wish to dispute that the Bill might be improved; indeed, if the Bill could be improved in a way to prevent the possibility of the danger which the hon. Gentleman contemplated, he (Mr. E. H. Paget) would be only too happy to propose the necessary Amendments. As he was unable to answer the right hon. Baronet (Sir Charles W. Dilke) before this, he must inform him that he had not had any communication with the late Attorney General within the last few days; and, therefore, if the right hon. and learned Gentleman had altered his opinion respecting the Bill, he (Mr. E. H. Paget) was not aware of it. He did not wish to occupy the time of the Committee further, and therefore would agree to the suggestion to report Progress.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsuggested to the hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for Monaghan (Mr. Healy) that he should put down a Motion to carry out the view he had expressed.
Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Monday next.

RIVER THAMES (No. 2) BILL.— [BILL 90.]
(Mr. Story-Maskelyne, Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, Mr. Elton, Mr. Walter James, Mr. Sellar, Colonel Makins, Mr. Molloy.)

CONSIDERATION.
Order for Consideration, as amended, read.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, that those who were present yesterday would remember that objection was taken by the hon. Baronet the Member for West Essex (Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson) to proceeding with the Bill. He had seen the hon. Baronet since, and he had waived his objection. Ho supposed, therefore, there would be no objection to the Bill proceeding.
Bill, as amended, considered; read the third time, and. passed.

MOTIONS.
  PLURALITIES BILL.

    NOMINATION OF SELECT COMMITTEE.
    Lord EDWARD CAVENDISH and Mr. CROPPER nominated other Members of

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    the Select Committee on Pluralities Bill.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Sir RICHARD CROSS be one other Member of the said Committee."—{Mr. Acland.)
    MR. ILLINGWORTHsaid, he must make an appeal to his hon. Friend (Mr. Acland) to content himself with the efforts he had made to legislate on this subject this Session. Many other Bills had been dropped, and it would be no greater hardship to the hon. Gentleman than it had been to others to forego his measure for a time. It was impossible that the Committee could hold a proper inquiry and present a Report this Session. His hon. Friend might have an idea that this was a small thing to undertake; but, as a matter of fact, it was a question of the first importance, affecting the whole of the clergy of the country. The title of the Bill was the Pluralities Bill, but that by no means covered the ground; a much better title would be the Clergy Disability Bill. The whole of the clergy in the country were deeply interested in an effective Bill. The Bill, as drawn, was the most inefficient thing that could have been proposed. Further than that, his hon. Friend had not given due consideration to the composition of the Committee. While the hon. Gentleman might now be willing to admit a slight modification, the modification would not really meet the necessities of the case. He did not hesitate to say that his hon. Friend had been going on the lines of proscription towards certain Members of the House.
    MR. R. H. PAGETrose to Order. He wished to know whether it was open to the hon. Member (Mr. Illingworth) on the Question put by the Chair-— namely, that certain Members of the House be Members of the Committee, to enter upon a discussion of the principle of the Bill?
    MR. SPEAKER: The House is now engaged in nominating the Members of the Committee. It is not, therefore, competent for the hon. Member to reopen the whole subject.
    MR. ILLINGWORTHsaid, that upon the question of names put by the Chair he ventured to ask whether the House had security that the Gentleman (Sir R. Assheton Cross) nominated, and
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    others who had been associated with him in the list of the Committee, would do what was fair and reasonable to all classes of the people? There had been a manifest intention shown, in the nomination of the Committee, to proscribe a large class of Members of the House. That belief was confirmed. [Cries of "Order!"] He was dealing with the Question. The Gentleman whose name had now been given from the Chair, and those with whom he was associated, belonged exclusively to one religious denomination; and, therefore, he thought the nomination of the Committee should be deferred to some occasion when it could be debated in a reasonable way. What he did object to, and what other hon. Members objected to, and what a great number of people worthy of their consideration in the country objected to, was that such a line should be taken by a Liberal Member. Moreover, there was no opportunity for anything which could be said at this period of the morning (2.20 a.m.) appearing in print, or of canvassing hon. Members to ascertain who would be willing to serve on the Committee in order to make it an efficient and representative one. The next name which would be given to them would be that of a Member of the Government (Sir R. Assheton Cross), and he did not know whether that right hon. Gentleman would be able to serve. He ventured to hope-—with great respect and great firmness he ventured to hope —that the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Acland) would not proceed further, because if he did it would be their duty to oppose further progress. He begged to move the adjournment of the debate.
    Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."——(Mr. Illingworth.)
    The House divided: —Ayes 9; Noes 45: Majority 36.—(Div. List, No. 219.)
    Original Question put, and agreed to.
    MR. ILLINGWORTH: Before the name of Sir Richard Cross is put I should like to ask—
    MR. SPEAKER: That name is passed. The next name is that of Mr. Beresford Hope.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. BERESFORD HOPE be one other Member of the said Committee."
    MR. ILLINGWORTHsaid, he could only appeal again to his hon. Friend, and express a hope that he would not consider that he (Mr. Illingworth) wished to pay him any disrespect. But the hon. Member was only in the same position as other hon. Gentlemen who were in charge of measures relating to questions which were very much "vexed questions," and who, therefore, had to wait for suitable opportunities to pass their Bills. The right hon. Gentleman whose name was before them (Mr. Beresford Hope) was a Gentleman of pronounced views, and ho had been notorious throughout his career in the House for the opposition he had offered to everything which had savoured of an extension of the religious liberty and civil rights of certain classes of Her Majesty's subjects; and he (Mr. Illingworth) could not but think that his hon. Friend would, in the end, succeed far better by abandoning any present intention of going forward with the Bill, or of asking hon. Gentlemen to join him in Committee upstairs. With the names which had been passed, and the one now before them, they would find it very inconvenient to go into the questions which would be brought before the Committee. He, therefore, begged to move that the debate be now adjourned.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Illingworth.)
    MR. ACLANDsaid, he appreciated the hon. Gentleman's desire, and he would, therefore, move the addition—
    MR. SPEAKER: It is not competent for the hon. Gentleman to make a Motion.
    MR. J. G. TALBOTsaid, he wished to make a suggestion in the interests of peace. The hon. Member for Bradford was anxious to have Nonconformists represented on the Committee, so he (Mr. J. G. Talbot) understood. He had understood the hon. Member for Cornwall (Mr. Acland) to say the other night that he had asked one or two Nonconformists to be on the Committee, but that they had declined. He would suggest to his hon. Friend that he should now add the names of one or two Nonconformists at the end of the list.
    MR. ACLANDsaid, he had been on the point of saying that he should be
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    only too glad to accept on the Committee hon. Members of different views. He should be glad to add or substitute names which the hon. Gentleman might think more appropriate.
    MR. WARTONsaid, the hon. Member for Bradford had had ample opportunity of giving Notice of names, but had not availed himself of it.
    MR. HEALYsaid, he trusted that this wrangle would be a lesson to Members of the Radical Party. Here they found the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford objecting to a series of names one after the other, when, if the old Rules had remained unaltered, he could have prevented the whole of the names from coming on by blocking the Motion. The hon. Member had supported the alteration of the old Rules, and he must now stew in his own juice.
    MR. CROPPERsaid, he thought it would be desirable to add more hon. Members to the Committee, so that every section of opinion might be represented.
    Question put, and negatived.
    Original Question put, and agreed to.
    Motion made, and Question, "That Viscount EMLYN be one other Member of the said Committee," put, and agreed to.
    MR. LYULPH STANLEYsaid, that on this name he wished to say a word or two.
    Several hon. MEMBERS: It is passed.
    MR. LYULPH STANLEY: I rose when Lord Emlyn's name was mentioned.
    MR. SPEAKER: I passed the name of Viscount Emlyn, and was proceeding to put the name of Mr. Stafford Howard.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. STAFFORD HOWARD be one other Member of the said Committee."
    MR. ILLINGWORTHsaid, an appeal had been made to him by his hon. Friend who was in charge of the subject—an appeal which was very reasonable. But at that period of the Session they should not ask hon. Members to hurry through an inquiry of this kind. He was satisfied that justice would not be

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    done to it. Many clergymen had written to him begging that he would do everything in his power to prevent the inquiry being hurried through. As matters now stood., he would have every justification for refusing to comply with the appeal which had been made, considering how persistently his hon. Friend (Mr. Acland) had refused to listen to what he thought a most reasonable wish.
    MR. ALBERT GREYsaid, that to carry out the wishes of the clergymen and others the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Illingworth) had referred to it would be well for him to see that some Nonconformists were appointed on the Committee. The hon. Member for Leeds, whom he (Mr. Albert Grey) had spoken to on the subject, had almost expressed a wish that he should serve. He had said he felt sure that the hon. Member for Southampton—who was away in bed—would, if appointed, be very glad to serve. It was almost a policy of obstruction, and dangerous for that reason, to proceed as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford had done. If that hon. Member would look at his Notice Paper he would see that a quorum of the Committee was to consist of five Members. There were already six or seven Members appointed, and there were nine or ten to come. If it was to be a good Committee, in order to prevent its having that vicious Church of England character which the hon. Member so condemned, he should see that some of his Friends were put on. He (Mr. A. Grey) hoped the hon. Member would not oppose the appointment of the Committee any further.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Mr. J. G. HUBBARD, Mr. INDERWICK, Sir JOHN KENNAWAY, Sir JOHN MOWBRAY, Mr. RICHARD PAGET, Mr. RAIKES, Mr. RYLANDS, and Mr. WODEHOUSE, nominated other Members of the said Committee; Five to be the quorum.

    DEEDS OF ARRANGEMENT REGISTRATION BILL.
    On Motion of Sir JOSEPH M'KENNA, Bill to provide for the Registration, as in cases of Bills of Sale, of all Deeds of Arrangement with Debtors who compound and settle for their debts without process in Bankruptcy, ordered to be brought in by Sir JOSEPH M'KENNA and Mr. W. NEWZAM NICHOLSON.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 225.]

    METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS (MONEY) BILL.
    On Motion of Sir HENRY HOLLAND, Bill to further amend the Acts relating to the raising of Money by the Metropolitan Board of Works; and for other purposes, ordered to be brought in by Sir HENRY HOLLAND and Colonel WAL-ROND. Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 224.]

    LICENSING LAWS AMENDMENT BILL.
    Considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    Resolved, That the Chairman be directed to move the House, That leave be given to bring in a Bill to amend the Licensing Laws.
    Resolution reported: — Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. STAFFORD HOWARD and Mr. HOULDSWORTH.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 226.]
    House adjourned at a quarter before Three o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BIlls—Firtt Heading— East India Loan (£10,000,000)* (164); Tithe Rent Charge Redemption* (105); Local Government Provisional Order (Municipal Corporations)* (1C6); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 3)* (167); Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 7)* (168); Local Government Provisional Orders (Poor Law) (No. 9)* (169): Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders* (170).
Second Reading —Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 2)* (155); Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 2)* (156); Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 3)* (157); Secretary for Scotland (117).
Committee —Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London) * (79).
Third Reading— Gas and Water Provisional Orders (No. 2)* (136); Water Provisional Orders* (137); Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 1)* (149); Elementary Education Provisional Orders Confirmation (Birmingham, &c.)* (80); Friendly Societies Act (1875) Amendment* (128), and passed.
Withdrawn — Real Property Registration (132).

NEW PEER.
Sir Nathaniel flayer Rothschild, Baronet, having been created Baron Rothschild of Tring in the county of Hertford—Was in the usual manner) introduced.

SECRETARY FOR SCOTLAND BILL.
(The Earl of Rosebcry.)
(NO. 117.) SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Heading read.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY, in rising to move that the Bill be now read a second time, said: My Lords, it has been so frequently the fate of your Lordships to discuss this measure in one form or another that it 'will not be necessary for me to trouble you with any detailed observations in asking you to give it a second reading. But I should be wanting in duty, I think, if I failed to render my acknowledgments, and not merely my acknowledgments, but the acknowledgments, I believe, of the vast majority of the people of Scotland, to Her Majesty's present Advisers for consenting to leave in their programme this single item, when they were obliged to omit so much. I am quite sure that they will find the good results of having done so, and will know by experience that, in doing so, they have only consulted the wishes of that country. My Lords, as regards this measure, there are only three changes from the time last year at which it was dropped by Her Majesty's late Government, and this leads me to remark on the extraordinarily sinister influence which this measure appears to have exercised on the deliberations of this House. On the first occasion on which it was brought forward, it was brought forward in a very much smaller shape than it is now, and it then arrived too late to be discussed by the majority of this House. On the second occasion it passed through Committee, and was down for third reading on the very day on which Her Majesty's late Government had to announce that they could proceed with no further measures; and this year it came on for second reading on the very day, I think, on which it was the duty of Her Majesty's late Government to announce, in the language which is suitable to the occasion, that they had sent a dutiful communication to Her Majesty. My Lords, a Bill which has survived such difficulties is destined to float, and I do not think that anything can now wreck it. But, in the course of its various vicissitudes, it has undergone certain particular and definite changes.

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Since the Bill left your Lordships last year one important provision, which was put in at my instigation in Committee of this House, has been left out of it— I mean the addition of the control of matters relating to law and justice, which your Lordships consented to put in charge of the new Secretary. Well, after getting that Amendment carried, it became my fate to be consulted, as one of Her Majesty's Ministers, on the form which the Bill was to assume this year; and, although it would be vain for me to try to pretend that I had in any respect altered my conviction in regard to that important branch of the subject, I cannot altogether disguise that it was not in consonance with the views of many of my Colleagues that the provision should exist, and I thought it wise, under the circumstances, to let it be expunged, rather than run the risk of losing the Bill on account of one particular provision. Then, my Lords, there is another provision which was not in the Bill of last year—I mean that providing that the Keeperehip of the Great Seal should attach to the Secretary for Scotland. Last year that Office was not vacant. It has since become vacant by the lamented death of Lord Selkirk; and it was felt to be only in unison with the opinions expressed both inside the House and out of it, by persons well qualified to judge, that we should add as much as possible to the dignity of the new Office by attaching this post to it. And, my Lords, the third difference between the Bill of last year and the present one is by far the most important—I mean the provision for putting primary education under the control of the new Minister. As regards that provision, I am very unwilling to say very much at this time; because a noble Lord has given Notice that he means to raise the question in Committee, and I think, therefore, that that will be a more fitting opportunity for discussing it. But, in the first place, I do not doubt that the feeling of this House is very strongly in favour of such a provision. I am quite aware that the division of last year does not carry out that contention, for the numbers who voted in that division were exceedingly small, and the minority was strengthened by a single vote; but that vote, I think, was equal to almost all the votes of those in the majority—I mean the vote of the
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noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury)—and if the noble Marquess felt that, in the exercise of his discretion as Leader of the Conservative Party, he could so far meet the very prevalent and almost unanimous feeling on this side of the House, we have some claim to consider that this House was largely in favour of that provision. But, my Lords, besides the feeling in this House, we were also aware that the feeling in the House of Commons, though it could not be described by any means as unanimously in favour of this provision, was largely in favour of it. I will take a very curious test in regard to the feeling that exists both inside and outside the House of Commons on this question. I suppose that there is no name which is more honoured in the cause of education than that of Sir Lyon Playfair, the Member for Edinburgh and St. Andrew's Universities. Sir Lyon Playfair declared himself as being opposed to the insertion of any provision of this kind in the Bill; and almost immediately afterwards he had to write to his constituents and inform them that, in consequence of the feeling that had been evoked by his declaration on this subject and in this sense, it would be perfectly useless for him to seek their suffrages on any future occasion. As regards the feeling in Scotland, I think the evidence is perfectly overwhelming. Her Majesty's late Government waited to introduce this Bill until the elections to the school boards had been over. The elections to the school boards took place some time in the months of March and April; and from them, without agitation, without anxiety, without seeking, 40 Petitions— at least 10—have come up demanding this provision. There are also, from municipal or other Local Authorities, 47 Petitions in favour of this provision for putting education under the Scottish Secretary. There is a Petition which I presented to-day from the Town Council of Edinburgh; another which I have presented to-day from the Town Council of Paisley; and your Lordships will remember that the late Lord Beaconsfield advised his Party to keep their eye on Paisley. Besides these, there have been a considerable number of ecclesiastical Petitions—Petitions from other public Bodies—from the Convention of Royal Burghs, and from political associations

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which are by no means all Liberal. Well, my Lords, I think that, in these circumstances, Her Majesty's late Government had no choice but to present the Bill with this provision in it; and with regard to it, they were also aware that considerable misapprehension existed which would be removed whenever there was any explanation made in this House. Now, my Lords, the Body—the one public Body—in Scotland which has opposed this provision, but by no means unanimously, for four Petitions from different branches of it have been presented in favour of the Bill—the Body that has opposed this measure in Scotland has been the Educational Institute. I had an interview with some of the gentlemen of the Educational Institute, and I found that they were acting under an entire misapprehension of the nature of the arrangements which would have been proposed by Her Majesty's late Government. I cannot, of course, say what Her Majesty's present Advisers will do as regards the organization of the new Office when it is made. That is a very important point, and one which cannot well lie within the four corners of this Bill. But it was the intention of the late Government to propose that the Educational Office for Scotland should be in London. There was no idea of moving it to Edinburgh; and yet, so far as I could ascertain from the deputations of the Educational Institute, their main objection to the Bill was that it would have a branch Office in Edinburgh. Well, my Lords, we have another point to consider in connection with the supervision of education. We have to consider that the Committee which met under the late Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Childers) recommended that there should not be this provision in a Minister for Scotland Bill, but that the arrangement should be made that there should be a Minister of Education for England and Scotland, under whom Scottish primary education should be placed. They also recommended that there should be two Departments of Education, each headed by a Permanent Secretary, one for England and one for Scotland, who should be made responsible to the Minister for Education. Her Majesty's late Advisers were prepared to carry out this recom-inendation with one difference, which
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was, however, an essential difference— namely, that the Educational Department of Scotland should be responsible to the Minister for Scotland. Without bringing forward at this stage the arguments which may be more properly stated in Committee, I think your Lordships will feel that the advantages of placing all the three branches of education in one hand are so great as to balance all other considerations. The dealing with the Universities and the dealing with the schools under Scottish endowments was always given to the Minister for Scotland in the three Bills which have been presented to this House. Surely, therefore, it would be a great advantage that we should add to these two branches that of primary education, and put all the strings of the system of education in Scotland into one hand. I do not at this moment venture into details on this particular branch of the subject; but I did not think it respectful to your Lordships to introduce it with less detail than I have done, and I earnestly recommend your Lordships to give it a second reading.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—{The Earl of Roselery.)
LORD BALFOURsaid, that he was entirely in favour of the second reading of the Bill, and saw it, to a very great extent, with the same eyes as the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Rosebery). The only point in which he differed from the noble Earl, so far as he knew at present, was as to the advisability of transferring education from the Privy Council, or the Minister of Education, to the charge of the Secretary for Scotland. No more than the noble Earl opposite should he (Lord Balfour) go into detail at the present time, because the Committee stage of the Bill would be the right time to raise a discussion upon it. But he would like to indicate generally what he thought would be the disadvantages of the proposed transference. It would make the interchange of teachers between England and Scotland more difficult, and there would be a liability in the future of contention arising as to the education grants. Scotland at present earned a higher sum per head than England, and that, he thought, would be submitted to so long as the two systems of

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education were under one control. But if once the idea gained ground in England that the Secretary for Scotland was relaxing the conditions under which the grant was earned in Scotland unfairly as compared with England, there would be great difficulty in getting sufficient grants from the Treasury to meet the demands of Scotland. But a more important difficulty would be the position of Scotland as regards the Science and Art Department of South Kensington. That Department must remain under the Privy Council; and he was most apprehensive that the interests of Scotland would materially suffer if there were not the same facility of communication between those who had charge of the education of the two countries. He was strengthened in that belief, because the weak part at present in Scottish education in the larger towns was their want of attention to technical branches of education. Such towns as Manchester, Sheffield, and Leeds in England were far in advance of Glasgow and Edinburgh as concerned that Department already; and the latter would be placed in a still worse position in the future if this transference were to take place. There was much that each country could learn from the other, and it could easily be shown that there was much that each country had learned from the other in the past. If that statement were challenged, he should endeavour to make it good on a future occasion. He therefore thought that in this respect, at all events, there would be some advantage to the two countries if the control of their education were to be combined under one Minister. It would, moreover, be of great advantage to education that the Minister should be always in the Cabinet; and if the proposal to have a Minister of Education for England and Scotland were carried, the Minister must necessarily be in the Cabinet. Although he hoped that this Secretary who was to be appointed for Scotland would, at least, sometimes be a man of such eminence as to be in the Cabinet, he did not think they could be at all sure that he would be, under all circumstances, a Member of the Cabinet. The noble Earl had made a great deal of the Petitions which the school boards had presented in favour of this transference, and he had said that 40 Petitions had been sent up
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by school boards. But the noble Earl had omitted to tell their Lordships how many school boards there were in Scotland. There were 972 school boards in Scotland, and he did not think anybody could say that if only 40 of these had taken the trouble to petition in favour of the proposal, there was any great enthusiasm on the subject. The noble Earl had made mention of some important towns which had petitioned in favour of the transference; but he had omitted to tell their Lordships of places like Glasgow, Govan, and Dundee, which had petitioned against it. His (Lord Balfour's) belief was that there was no question at present agitating in Scotland about which there was so much difference of opinion as about the question whether or not it would be advisable to place education under the charge of the Secretary for Scotland. He wished to throw out a suggestion to their Lordships. Those who continued to press for the transference of education were not the real friends of the passing of this measure. They had heard rumours, and he thought it had been announced from the Front Bench here, that no measure about which there was much difference of opinion would have a chance of passing this Session. Now, nobody could deny, whatever their view of the matter might be about this question, that there was a very great deal of difference of opinion in Scotland; and he ventured to say that nothing would be so likely to prevent the passage of the Bill through the other House as sending it down with the charge of education given to the Secretary for Scotland. The suggestion he wished to make was this—whether it would not be desirable to pass the Bill in the present Session without this transference, and to make a suggestion to the Government, to strengthen the Scottish Committee of the Privy Council; to make it, if necessary, more separate than it is from the Department, while still nominally under the control of the same head; that the Committee should be summoned oftener than it had been, and should bemademore a reality than it was at the present time. He ventured to think that would satisfy the legitimate claim at the present time for the separate management of Scottish education. And then, if that arrangement was found not to work, it would be perfectly easy at any future time

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to transfer the whole of education to the Secretary for Scotland. On the other hand, if they attempted to make the transference at present, they might probably endanger the passage of the Bill, and make it impossible that there should be a Ministry of Education for the two countries. Whether it was desirable that such a Ministry should be formed he would not then say; but he asked that the consideration of the question should not be prejudiced by the transference of Scottish education at the present time. Another advantage of the course he suggested was, that it would be a difficult task to organize a new Scottish Department at the commencement; and if it were over weighted with such an important matter as education there would be very great difficulty in getting it under way at its first start, while it would be comparatively easy to make the change afterwards. There was only one other matter, and it was one to which he asked the very earnest consideration of the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Rosebery). He did not know what would be the staff in the new Office, or what place education was to hold in that Office. The 2nd clause of the Bill, providing for the staff, was in exactly the same words as when the Bill was first introduced two or three years ago without the proposal to transfer education. Their Lordships all knew there was no matter which was of so highly technical a character as education. It required a trained man to pay proper attention to it—to exercise the proper control over it. Now, there were a great many matters transferred to the management of the Secretary for Scotland, and he was only to have one Permanent Secretary. What he wanted to know was, would that Permanent Secretary be a man of technical knowledge of what was necessary for education, or would he only have a technical knowledge for things mentioned in the Schedule? For example, would his chief care be to take charge of sewage, and cattle diseases, and such things as these, or would he be able to take an intelligent charge of matters relating to education? He thought that, on the whole, it would be very much better not to press for the transference of education at the present time. He confessed that his own opinion always had been, and still was, that the transference would be
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a mistake; but he thought the suggestion he had made was the only one which would not prejudice opinions on either side, and by it the question would be dealt with in a satisfactory manner.
THE EARL OF ABERDEENsaid, he would advise their Lordships to give a generous assent to the wishes of the people of Scotland by passing the Bill as it stood. Ho did not see that there was much force in the objections of the noble Lord who had just sat down (Lord Balfour). That noble Lord had spoken of the disadvantages and hindrances to education which would result if this change were effected; but he (the Earl of Aberdeen) confessed he could not see how the fact of the Scottish Minister having charge of the education of the country would interfere with it, as the object of placing it in his care was to promote its interests. In his opinion, the Scottish Minister would be in such a position with reference to access to the Treasury officials that he would be enabled to advance the interests of Scottish education in that way. The noble Lord also spoke about the comparatively small number of school boards petitioning in favour of this provision, having regard to the total number of boards in Scotland; but, certainly, whatever might be said in that respect, there were not many who had petitioned against it. After what his noble Friend (the Earl of Rosebery) had said, however, as to the misapprehension on the part of the Educational Institute, probably it was not too much to say that a similar apprehension prevailed with regard to some Petitions which were sent in some time ago against this proposal. He hoped the noble Earl who had charge of the Bill would not agree to the suggestion of the noble Lord (Lord Balfour) that an intermediate course should be taken to strengthen the Scottish Department of the Committee of Council on Education. He (the Earl of Aberdeen) would rather have the question of education left as it was; because then it would have to be dealt with at some future time, and he had no doubt it would then be included in the functions of the new Minister for Scotland.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, he wished to express his gratitude to his noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Rosebery) for having consented to continue the charge of this Bill under the altered

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circumstances that had taken place. The fact that he had done so showed that, in his opinion, as well as in the opinion of noble Lords on both sides of the House, there was no question of Party at all involved in the measure. That had been the case in Scotland from the very commencement of the movement, and that was proved by the fact that the promoters of the Bill asked him (the Marquess of Lothian), a Conservative, to preside at what he considered the largest meeting in Scotland, which was held in Edinburgh, in favour of placing Scottish affairs in charge of a Minister for Scotland. He need say very little about what he himself thought —namely, that it was necessary that their Lordships should pass the Bill this Session. The fact not only of his having presided at that meeting, but also of having subsequently had the honour to introduce a representative deputation to the then Prime Minister, requesting him that a Bill to this effect should be passed, gave him, he thought, some title to speak as to what the feelings of the people of Scotland were on this subject. He knew there were some people who said that this movement in favour of a separate administration for Scotland had had no real or solid basis to start with; that it was practically a sham, and that a sham deserved no consideration. He was not concerned with the beginning or the origin of the movement. These things began in a whisper; but the whisper grew into a loud voice, which, he thought, those who were wise would stop to listen to before it developed into a sullen roar. He was perfectly certain that this Bill, having been before their Lordships' House now for three Sessions, the people of Scotland had made up their minds more and more to have a measure of this description; and it would not be right, on the part of Parliament, to refuse to give that which was asked for with ever-increasing strength. On the details of the measure he was not prepared to speak, and he did not wish to detain their Lordships. But he should like to say, with reference to the question of education, that he trusted their Lordships did not agree to cut it out from the control of the proposed Secretary for Scotland. As to the exact details in which education might be placed under the control of that Minister, he did not think this was the time
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to make any suggestion. In fact, he did not quite understand what the noble Earl who moved the second reading or the late Government proposed. The noble Earl said he thought that they never had in contemplation that there should be a Board of Education sitting in Edinburgh, and in that he (the Marquess of Lothian) heartily concurred. But he did not know how far the late Government intended that the control of Scottish education in London should be placed entirely under the separate management of the proposed Secretary for Scotland—whether it should be an entirely separate control, or, simply, a separate Department of the Board of Education in London. Whatever might be the case, he was very glad to think it was not proposed that the Board of Education should have its seat in Edinburgh, and that the Secretary for Scotland was to have control over it. With reference to the suggestion of the noble Lord (Lord Balfour), he must also confess that he did not quite understand that either. What he gathered generally was, that the noble Lord proposed, as far as possible, that the question of education should be left out of the Bill of this year, with the view of introducing it on some future occasion into the Department of the Minister for Scotland. He did not think that would satisfy the people of Scotland at all. He, for one, was exceedingly anxious that the Bill should pass this Session, and pass as a whole. Let them give to the people of Scotland what they asked. Let them give it generously, and in a manner which would satisfy them; so that they might not be threatened with an agitation which was sure to occur with increasing strength.
LORD BALFOUR, in explanation, said, that what he intended to say was, that there should be a preparatory explanation between the two Departments rather more than there was at the present time; and hereafter, if that arrangement was found not to be possible, the Scottish Department should be transferred to the charge of the Secretary for Scotland.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, he was glad to hear the explanation; but what he should like to see was, as far as possible, a complete separation at once. With regard to the Petitions, those to which the noble Lord alluded were

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chiefly from the Educational Bodies of Scotland. He did not wish to undervalue them; but of this he was perfectly certain—that apart from those immediately engaged in education, and those influenced by the Educational Institute, the people of Scotland generally were entirely in favour of the proposal of the noble Earl. He was convinced that was the case, and he hoped their Lordships would bear that in mind in Committee. He had only one thing more to do, and that was to ask their Lordships to pass the second reading of the Bill unanimously, and to deprecate, as far as possible, any interference with the measure in Committee. He thought it would have a very bad effect if the Bill were so altered in Committee as to take away this provision from the proposed Secretary for Scotland. Perhaps ho might be allowed to say that if it had not been for other considerations which would probably make it impossible, he should have been very glad to have seen the noble Earl who had charge of the Bill take the new Office. He hoped the Bill would pass into law this Session. It was not a Party question; but, at the same time, he could not, as a Conservative, but feel glad that after so long a delay this measure, which had been so long asked for by the people of Scotland, should pass under the auspices of a Conservative Administration.
THE EARL OF FIFEsaid, he had great pleasure in congratulating his noble Friend (the Earl of Rosebery) that the Bill had now such good prospects of reaching its destination. He did not think it necessary on this occasion to enter into the well-worn arguments in favour of the general principle of the measure. In fact, the only question which seemed to call for any debate was the inclusion of education amongst the functions of the new Secretary for Scotland. With all due deference to the noble Lord who spoke second (Lord Balfour), he might, perhaps, be allowed to say that he had always traced the opposition to that provision to those Bodies who were officially, or semi-officially, connected with the supervision of education, either in London or in Scotland. And if they would only go beyond those special Educational Bodies, either at London or in Edinburgh, and ask the opinion of
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the general public in Scotland, they would find that there was almost practical unanimity in favour of including education amongst the functions of the new Secretary. If they asked the ordinary average Scotsman what was his opinion on this point, he would answer, as he was afraid his countrymen very often did, by a question—"What on earth is the use of a Minister for Scotland, what is he to do, if he has not included among his functions the most important of Scottish questions?" If any further proof were needed, he (the Earl of Fife) might, perhaps, be allowed to say that he had presented to their Lordships nearly 60 Petitions in favour of placing education under the control of the now Minister, and over 40 of them came from school boards in Scotland. As to the contention that it was desirable that the whole education of the country should be in the hands of one Minister, he inclined to think it would be quite time to deal with that subject when they had the slightest chance of including Irish education under that one head. At present, that contingency seemed very remote; and he was very much inclined to doubt whether it was desirable to mix up in one Administration the educational affairs of the three countries; because, if they added those of a small country to those of a large country, naturally the policy of the large country would prevail; and if, as in Scotland, the smaller country was more advanced than the larger one, the natural tendency would be not to urge on further improvement, but rather to allow matters to stagnate until the larger country had come up to the smaller one. That was what Scotland objected to. He had no desire unduly to laud his countrymen; but ho thought it would be generally allowed that their old Scottish system of education was very superior indeed, and that superiority would be amongst their most cherished of national traditions, and that superiority Scotsmen were anxious not merely to maintain, but to increase. But that result would not be accomplished if they did not include the management of education amongst the functions of the now Minister, and without it he would likely be a more ornamental than useful personage.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNsaid, the only regret he had in connection

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with this measure was that it had not been seen fit to make the salary attached to the new Office rather larger than it was. He believed, himself, the importance of an office to be gauged far more by the salary attached to it than by the heterogeneous character of the duties to be performed; and for that reason he wished the salary had been £4,000 a-year rather than £2,000. He had only one word to say with regard to the subject of education. The great objection he took to this transfer of education from the Privy Council to the proposed new Secretary for Scotland was that it by no means followed that this Secretary would be a person who would know anything about education, and the result would be that he would have to refer to the permanent officials of the Department. If that were so, this permanent official, who would have to look after sewage and the many other matters transferred to the new Secretary, would eventually become the Education Minister for Scotland. There was a stronger reason than the one he had given, and it was this—What was the need of it? Did anyone allege that the subject of education had not been ably and satisfactorily dealt with by the Department already administering it?
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: Yes.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: The noble Earl said yes; but the noble Earl himself had told them that he proposed to keep the Department in London, and that the only change, it might be presumed, which it intended to make was this—that besides a big Education Department there would be a little Education Department alongside of it—one representing education in England, and the other representing education in Scotland; and he did not see that any advantage was to be gained by that. With all respect for his countrymen, and the national superiority to which the noble Earl (the Earl of Fife) had referred, he thought that it was to be borne in mind that education was a thing which, if it differed at all, differed not in kind, but in degree. It was very true that in this matter of education they believed that they had progressed further in Scotland than they had in England or Ireland; but, at the same time, the education itself was of the same sort, and it was simply a question of how
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far it was to go, and how it was to be superintended. He must say for himself that he looked upon a Minister of Education for the whole country as much more likely to exercise an intelligent and beneficial supervision over the subject in the Kingdom generally than if a single portion of the Kingdom were set apart and placed under the charge of a permanent official like this proposed Secretary for Scotland, who would have a variety of duties to attend to, and who need not necessarily know very much on the subject of education. On a former occasion, their Lordships had refused to make this change by a large majority, although the noble Marquess opposite (the Marquess of Salisbury) had voted in favour of it. He (the Earl of Cam-perdown) had a great deal of respect for the noble Marquess opposite, and ho had a great respect for his vote; but, at the same time, he could not go quite so far as his noble Friend (the Earl of Rosebery) on that point. His noble Friend had said that the vote of the noble Marquess was equal to the vote of 20 or 30 others; but he (the Earl of Camperdown) was quite certain that the noble Earl, on other occasions, would not be inclined to attach to the noble Marquess's vote so much importance.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, it would be presumptuous in me, after so many great Scottish authorities have spoken, if I wore to venture to deal at any great length with a matter which concerns Scotland alone; but I do not like to allow the Bill to pass the second reading without saying a word as to the course which the Government have taken with respect to it. Properly, this should be a Government measure; and in the other House, if it passes your Lordships, it will be a Government measure; but we think that, considering the conspicuous and assiduous manner in which the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Rosebery) has been conducting this movement, it would be ungracious on our part if we proposed to take it out of his hands, and I am sure it could not be in better hands. I do not say this out of gratitude for the remarkable compliment which the noble Earl paid me with respect to my vote, which, I rather agree with the last speaker (the Earl of Camperdown), was a compliment

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of occasion, and would not be repeated under other circumstances. But, my Lords, I think that the arguments with respect to the educational part of the measure, though they are within the scope of our ordinary practice and Rules, are perhaps rather premature, and that the subject must be examined more carefully when it comes before us in the regular way in Committee. As far as my information enables me to go, I believe that those who have represented the general feeling of Scotland as in favour of the larger, rather than the smaller, interpretation of the duties of the new Minister, accurately represent the state of the case and there is a good deal to be said for the consideration advanced by the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Fife) that the Scottish people are, chronologically, considerably ahead of the English people in the matter of education, and that there must be something galling in the consideration that, in dealing with educational matters, all questions are decided rather on English than on Scottish principles. I have also heard it said—I do not know whether it is true—that the application of the same rule to the uniformity of education to the whole country has had the effect of imposing on the poorer districts of Scotland a very large expenditure, which those who are best entitled to judge think has been somewhat unfair. But, however that matter may be, we shall be prepared, when the time comes, to enter on the question whether the Education Department should or should not be entirely assigned to this particular officer. I have never concealed my own opinion on the subject, that, on the whole— though I admit that a great deal may be said on the other side—that, on the whole, it is better to localize as far as possible, rather than centralize, a business of this kind; and that those vast administrative mechanisms which we are building up are not without their inconvenience, and even not without their danger; and I should be, therefore, prepared to see them divided into smaller Departments. I have no other remark to make, except to say that our object on this question is not to depart from our view that it should be made as little contentious as possible, and that in giving our general assent on the whole to the inclusion of education we must not be considered as looking upon
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it as a vital question. I believe it is of great importance that this Bill should pass. I am not sorry at the delay that has taken place; on the contrary, it has, I believe, justified the action of your Lordships; for it has drawn out in a more distinct and unequivocal manner what are the real feelings of the people of Scotland on this question. But I think it would be much to be regretted if differences of opinion as to the inclusion of education should cause the Bill to be put off to another Session. I, therefore, do not conceal from your Lordships that I do not propose to say that the question of education is so vital to it that we should lose the Bill, if it were rejected. Notwithstanding, therefore, the many ominous prophecyings I have heard, that the House of Commons will take a different view from that of your Lordships, I hope the question of education will not be regarded as being so vital as to involve the loss of the measure; but I earnestly trust that the efforts of the noble Earl opposite may be successful.
THE EARL OF WEMYSSsaid, he had been anxious to take this opportunity of expressing his views; but after what had fallen from the noble Marquess he would reserve his remarks for the present, until he could express them in Committee.
Motion agreed to; Bill road 2a accordingly.
THE EARL OF ROSEBERY: I propose, if agreeable to your Lordships, to take this day week for Committee on the Bill. Of course, the Session cannot now be a long one, and I therefore hope that this day week will not be too soon, considering how short a time the Session is expected to last.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, it might be taken on Tuesday.
THE EARL OF BOSEBERYsaid, he was quite agreeable.
Bill committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.

REAL PROPERTY REGISTRATION BILL.—(No. 132.)
(The Duke of Marlborough.)

SECOND HEADING.
Order of the Day for the Second Beading, read.
THE DUKE OF MARLBOROUGH, in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that the important subject dealt with by that Bill could not fail to be of great interest to their Lordships. Indeed, it was impossible to find a body of men in this country who were so largely or so universally interested in that subject. That question had been treated at different times by very eminent Members of that House, among others by Lord Campbell, Lord Brougham, Lord Selborne, and Lord Cairns; and it might be thought from his non-acquaintance with the technicalities of the subject that it was somewhat bold in him to attempt to bring it under the attention of their Lordships. Bills had been passed and inquiries instituted in reference to it, and yet the matter was still involved in very great difficulty and complexity. The present was, he considered, a favourable time for introducing this subject. The measure which he had the honour to bring forward was merely a corollary of Lord Cairns's Act, so much so, indeed, that without the passing of this measure the whole intention of that Act would be defeated. At present there was a deadlock in land, and owing to the steady and persistent fall in prices there was every prospect of these bad times continuing. Taking these matters into consideration, and also the large charges which were laid upon the land in rates and tithes, he could not help thinking that the land was practically verging upon bankruptcy. The measure of 1882 had been the crowning act of Earl Cairns's labours in the direction of freeing the land from the burdens under which it lay, and by it the whole tenure of the land had been altered. Lord Cairns had given to the tenants for life of settled estates power to sell every portion of them except the mansion house, thus defeating the purpose of the entail, which had been to keep the land in one family as long as possibly could be done. He believed that this Act, in conjunction with a further measure upon the subject, might be one of the greatest mainstays of the value of property. At pre-sent the expenses of the transfer of land were enormous, amounting between vendors' and purchasers' expenses to 12 or 15 per cent, besides the great delay which at present took place in the transaction. In 1854 a Royal Commission
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had inquired into the question of the transfer of land, and also that of the examination of titles; in fact, there had been two Royal Commissions and one Committee who had considered the question. In Lord Westbury's Act of 1862 it had been attempted to make a register of titles, in which the register should be the mirror of the title; but solicitors had been unwilling to advise their clients to lend money upon mortgages of estates thus registered. Lord Westbury's and Lord Cairns's Acts had failed in the object for which they were passed— namely, to encourage owners to register the title of their lands. No title deed was practically indefeasible and absolute, and it was by excluding all other rights that a person proved his own. The only way they could get out of that was by advertising the title. He proposed to give every person the right to enter his land on the register, and to make an affidavit indicating all the charges on the land; accompanying that affidavit would be another from two rate-payers of the county living in the neighbourhood in which the land was situated. At the end of two years' primary registration the title would become absolute, and would exclude all other persons. By these means, he contended, there would be offered inducements to bring land upon the register such as were not given by the Act of 1875. He did not suppose that at that period of the Session such a measure as this could become law. He had introduced this subject only because he believed it to be one of great importance on which legislation was absolutely necessary. Should their Lordships be willing to grant a second reading to the Bill, he would have no objection to its being referred to a Select Committee, which could investigate the whole subject, and a Bill be brought in the next year. This Bill was really an amendment of Lord Cairns's Land Act and a practical attempt to endeavour to meet the difficulties which that Act did not meet—namely, the difficulties put in the way of registration by the Legal Profession. He moved the second reading of the Bill.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—[The Duke of Marlborough.)
THE LORD CHANCELLOR (Lord HALSBURY)said, he was, unfortunately, not able to advise their Lordships to,

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yield to the suggestion of the noble Duke (the Duke of Marlborough), and allow this Bill to be read a second time with a view to the subject being investigated. He was not at all insensible to the importance of the question; indeed, it was one which had exercised the minds of the Legal Profession, besides many other persons, for a considerable time. But the only effect now of passing this Bill —one of 117 sections—would be that the House would commit itself without debate to the principle of the measure, upon which undoubtedly neither the Legal Profession nor those who took an interest in the Land Question were agreed. There were two principles upon which registration could take place—one was the registration of title, and the other was the registration of deeds. The noble Duke asked the House to commit itself to one of those principles. For his own part, he wished to be able to consider a question of this sort in its entirety, and, if legislation should be desirable, to be able to form a judgment on the subject without being committed to any particular principle in dealing with it. He could not, therefore, advise their Lordships to pass the second reading of a Bill which affirmed one principle and contradicted another, and thus preclude themselves from considering and coming to a judgment on the whole question. Nor was ho able to concur in the noble Duke's observations that this Bill either followed the lines or was any essential part of the system of Lord Cairns's Act. The noble Duke had done an injustice to his own diligence in striving to minimize the changes which this Bill sought to introduce. Among other things, the Bill provided that Land Commissioners should divide the whole of England into districts, and that titles to land should be registered on the application of the owners. Speaking roughly, the Bill would have the effect of reducing the Statutes of Limitation with respect to the recovery of land to two years. That was a most serious change, and one which the noble Duke proposed, apparently not only without consultation with the real property lawyers, but somewhat in defiance of the principles on which lawyers had been accustomed to act. He did not wish to be understood as being antagonistic to the principle which the noble Duke advanced; but he maintained that
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at that period of the Session, and under the circumstances, it was in the highest degree undesirable to pledge the House to a Bill the principles of which he had just glanced at without full consideration. The practical ground on which he opposed the Bill was that it was in truth only pledging the House to a kind of abstract principle without sufficient examination into either principles or details.
LORD CASTLETOWNsaid, that the noble Duke had made no reference in his speech to Ireland and Scotland. In Ireland there was an Act in force almost identical with the noble Duke's Bill; but it had unfortunately proved almost nugatory in consequence of the difficulties interposed by the Legal Profession. The Record of Title Act, as it was termed, was passed in 1865; but the fees which had been fixed by the Judges of the Landed Estates Court were much too high. The main question involved was that of compulsion, without which the trammels of the Legal Profession would never be got rid of. Nor would the question bo satisfactorily disposed of until similar laws were made for the Three Kingdoms He hoped their Lordships would read the Bill a second time, and then refer it to a Select Committee.
LORD ELLENBOROUGHsaid, he thought that a Bill of that kind ought only to be introduced on the responsibility of the Government of the day.
THE EARL OF SELBORNEsaid, that he had introduced a Bill in 1873 much on the same lines as the noble Duke's, so far as related to the principle of compulsion. But he quite agreed with his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack that it was impossible for the House to deal with the question at that period of the Session, and that it was undesirable that the House should give a vote which might affect the majority of their Lordships, by committing them to the affirmation of any principle without having had ample time for its consideration. He looked upon the subject as being one of great importance, but encumbered with serious difficulties; but for which the late Government would not have allowed five years to elapse without dealing with it. The difficulties did not all rest with the Legal Profession. In his judgment, to make a successful measure, three, certainly two,

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things would be necessary. First, the system of registration should be general and compulsory; secondly, the Government must go to the expense of establishing, in as many centres as the convenience of the country might require, the necessary machinery for carrying out the system under the control of competent persons. As such a system could not at first be self-supporting, though in the end it might prove so, the Treasury would have to be consulted, and difficulties might arise in that quarter. Thirdly, he was very much inclined to agree with the noble Duke that it would be necessary in any great reform to clear possessory titles after a comparatively short time, and to bar all contrary claims. That, however, would involve the exclusion of dormant and outstanding claims, in a much more summary way than under the present law; and this some persons would not like, because there might be some questions under settlements arising. All the difficulties which he had mentioned might be overcome; but there were other and great difficulties behind, which certainly did not rest with the Legal Profession. A great deal was heard of the Land Question. What did that mean? He was not sure that all those who most frequently used the phrase would agree as to the answer, or as to what should be done respecting it. Some would propose one thing, and some another. There was a large body of persons, whose opinions were not unlikely in the future to prevail, who objected to the substance of our Law of Real Property, and would object to modifications of the law, which were only in the direction of facilitating transfer, and which did not deal with entails and settlements, either by total abolition, or, at least, by bringing thorn within narrower limits. He regretted this state of things, not because he was opposed to all important changes in the substance of the law, but because he always thought it wise, in dealing with large and complicated questions, to treat the different branches of them separately. Nothing could be done in the matter without the general support, either of lawyers, or of the country at large, and it was for that reason that he had supported the recent measures of his late lamented Friend Earl Cairns; which were most useful, but which,
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without that general support which they received from the Members of the Legal Profession who had seats in the House of Commons, would never have become law.
THE EARL OF LONGFORDurged that as there were both purchasers for small parcels of land, and proprietors willing to sell, who were now kept apart by the legal delays and expenses, arrangements were required to facilitate the transfer of small holdings.
THE DUKE of MARLBOROUGHsaid, the extension of the principle of registration of title was so large under the provisions of this Bill, that he should hardly be warranted in asking their Lordships to assent to the second reading at so late a period of the Session. He would therefore, with the permission of their Lordships, withdraw the Bill. He would, however, bring it forward in another Session unless the Government would themselves deal with the subject.
THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: Before the discussion closes I wish to make merely one remark. It appears that the noble and learned Earl opposite (the Earl of Selborne), and all who have taken part in this discussion, go upon the theory, which is very common in this country, that there is something in the law in this country, as it is practised, which makes it specially difficult and expensive to transfer small properties from one person to another; and there is a belief that by something we can do in this building we may alter the state of things altogether. Now, I wish to say—and each man must contribute his own experience—that I have very great scepticism on that subject, and I found my scepticism on the fact that I have myself dealt in a small way with small properties in England and in France. In France the almost fixed charge for conveying land is 12 per cent on the purchase money. In this country the charge varies enormously; but, according to my experience, it does not exceed, as a rule, 4 or 5 per cent. In France the shackles supposed to be connected with the feudal system have been long ago got rid of, and yet the cost remains as high as I have stated. No doubt I shall be told—-and I think it right to mention this, because it is an important point— that a very considerable taxation exists in France, as it exists to some extent in this country, and that the 12 per cent

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includes a sum for that purpose. That taxation represents, in a great degree, the performance of the very services for which a Bill of this kind provides— namely, the cost of registration and so forth, which are no doubt essential to a transfer of small properties, but which, like all services, must be paid for, and which tend to raise the price in the manner I have indicated. Do not let us be misled by the experience of the Colonies. They have no difficulty in providing a cheap mode of land transfer because their land has no legal history. What causes the expense here is the fact that land has gone through a great number of previous transactions, which have to be traced, identified, and dealt with, and any difficulty arising out of them removed. When you deal with land which is in a state of nature, or which has not been many years in the hands of individuals, of course that complicated history does not exist, and the cost arising out of it has not to be paid. It would, therefore, be taking a very optimist view of the subject to think that anything we can do in this House will make the transfer of land as cheap in an old country as it is in a new one. Though I am far from saying that improvements cannot be made, or wishing to throw any discouragement on efforts such as that of the noble Duke, which show great industry and considerable knowledge of the subject, yet I do not think that such an extensive cheapening as generally believed to be possible will arise from any legislation we may adopt.
Motion and Bill (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

PALACE OF"WESTMINSTER—THE COMMITTEE ROOMS — VENTILATION OF THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, he wished to call attention to the ventilation of the Committee Booms of the House. When the east wind blew the Committee Booms of the House became the very temples of the winds, to the great discomfort of the Members of the Committee and to the members of the Bar and others who had to attend in them. He had been informed that the windows might be made air-tight at a very small expense; and considering that the House
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  of Lords only cost the country the sum of about £3,000 or £4,000 a-year, after deducting the amount which it paid into the Treasury, to keep up, he thought the cost of excluding the cold air from the Committee Booms would not be grudged.
  THE EARL OF LONGFORDalso suggested that improvements should be made. At present, when the windows were opened, there was an intolerable draught, and, when closed, a foul atmosphere.
  LORD HENNIKERsaid, he would not follow his noble Friend (the Earl of Belmore) through all the points he had raised in his speech; but he must say, as one who had satin Committee Booms for many hours, that he fully sympathized with his noble Friend, and the noble Earl who had last spoken (the Earl of Longford), in their desire not to be obliged to sit in over-heated rooms when Business of great importance was before them. It might, perhaps, interest their Lordships to know what was the present system of ventilation in the Committee Booms, as he had taken the trouble that day to go into the matter. Under each Committee Boom there was a large arched chamber; through this chamber air was admitted from outside into the room by means of gratings all round the room, at the bottom of the high dado, and by means of gratings under the windows; and at the top of the dado, all round the room, there was an open space to allow the foul air to escape; there were perforated panels in the ceiling, and the cornice all round the room was perforated for the same purpose. When the foul air was carried up above the ceiling, it was carried away by a down shaft, the foul air being brought from both ends of the corridor, which communicated with the Victoria Tower. A fire was always kept alight there, and this and the draught drew away the foul air through the Victoria Tower. This system appeared to be perfect; but, from experience, ho would say it could not be said to be so. No doubt, noble Lords were often to blame themselves, as they were apt to open the windows—a noble Lord was very hot, and asked for the window to be opened, and so on. This disturbed the system of ventilation, and it might be that the opening of the window made the room more hot than

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  it otherwise would be. It was quite true, as Ms noble Friend had said, that one room in the House of Commons— he thought Room No. 13—had been altered in a satisfactory manner — so as to allow the windows to be opened, and to greatly improve the ventilation. However, his right hon. Friend the Chief Commissioner of Works (Mr. Plunket) would give his most earnest attention to the matter; and he would, in consultation with Dr. Percy—who looked after such matters in the Houses of Parliament, and than whom no one in England was a better authority on the subject of ventilation—do all he could to remedy the inconvenience complained of.
  THE EARL OF MILLTOWNsaid, that however perfect the present system of ventilation of the Committee Rooms might be in theory, the result was discreditable.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.