Sitting of 5 February 1884

Preamble
The House met at half after One of the clock.
Message to attend the Lords Commissioners;—
The House went;—and having returned;—

NEW WRITS DURING-THE RECESS.
MR. SPEAKERacquainted the House,—that he had issued Warrants for New Writs, for Manchester City, v. Hugh Birley, esquire, deceased: for York City, v. Joseph Johnson Leeman, esquire, deceased; for Ipswich Borough, v. Thomas Clement Cobbold, esquire, deceased; fur Wigan Borough, v. Thomas Knowles, esquire, deceased; for Limerick City, v. Richard O'shaughnessy, esquire, Registrar of Petty Sessions Clerks in Ireland; for Londonderry County, v. Eight honble. Andrew Marshall Porter, Master of the Polls in Ireland.
NEW WRITS ISSUED.
For Paisley, v. William Holms, esquire, Chiltern Hundreds; for Somerset County (Western Division), v. Mordaunt Fen wick Bisset, esquire, Manorof North-stead.
NEW WRITS ISSUED.
  NEW MEMBERS SWORN.
  Samuel Walker, esquire, for Londonderry County; William Henry Houlds-worth, esquire, for Manchester; Honble. Charles Hedley Strutt, for Essex (Eastern Division); Nathaniel Eckersley, esquire, for Wigan; Edward M'Mahon. esquire, for Limerick City; Sir Frederick George Milner, baronet, for York City; Henry Wyndham West, esquire, for Ipswich; James William Lowther, esquire, for Rutland.
  Ordered, That a Committee of Privileges be appointed.
  OUTLAWRIES BILL.
  Bill "for the more effectual preventing Clandestine Outlawries," read the first time; to be read a second time.
NOTICES OF MOTIONS, &c.
  REPRESENTATION OF THE PEOPLE BILL.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I beg to give Notice of my intention to ask for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Law-relating to the Representation of the People of the United Kingdom. I wish to bring that Bill in on the first day at the disposal of the Government—on Friday, if the state of Business will permit; and if not, on the first day thereafter that shall be at our command.
  STANDING COMMITTEES—REVIVAL OF RESOLUTIONS OF 1ST DECEMBER, 1882.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I also wish to give Notice—joining it to the Notice I have just given—of my intention to move that the Resolutions of the House of the 1st of December, 1882, relating to the constitution and proceedings of Standing Committees, be revived.

  PARLIAMENT—BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.
  MR. ANDERSONasked whether the Prime Minister would offer any facilities to private Members for bringing in Bills to-morrow of which Notice for to-morrow had been given to-day, and their precedence just been fixed by ballot?
  MR. STEVENSONsaid, he would also appeal to the Prime Minister to make arrangements for suspending the debate on the Address at an early hour on Wednesday afternoon, so as to enable hon. Members who had given Notice of Bills for that day to introduce them. If they were not enabled to do so, they would lose the precedence the ballot had given them, and hon. Members who had put their Notices down for Thursday would displace them.
  MR. ALDERMAN W. LAWRENCE (for Sir JAMES CLARKE LAWRENCE): To call attention to the subject of the Common Lodging House Acts, and of houses occupied by several families of the working classes.
  MR. ANDERSONsaid, that having received no answer, he desired to repeat his Question with regard to the priority of hon. Members who had given Notice of the introduction of Bills to-morrow, in the event of no opportunity occurring for their so doing.
  MR. GLADSTONE, in reply, said, he was not sure whether it would be in his power to alter the arrangements which had been made for to-morrow. The natural course for hon. Members to adopt under the circumstances was to introduce their Bills on Thursday instead of tomorrow.
  MR. ANDERSONasked Mr. Speaker, whether it was not a fact that the order of precedence given by the ballot to-day would be altogether upset if hon. Members were unable to introduce to-morrow the Bills of which they had given Notice?
  MR. SPEAKER: I apprehend, in that case, those Members whose Notices of Motion could not come on would have to renew the Notices of Motion.
  MR. ANDERSONasked if that did not mean that precedence just secured by the ballot would be lost?
  MR. SPEAKER: Yes.
  MR. ANDERSONsaid, that after receiving this answer, he must again ask the Prime Minister whether he would not in this matter consider the rights of private Members?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I see no necessity for any arrangement of the kind suggested. It appears to me that Gentlemen who gave Notice of the introduction of their Bills on Wednesday gave that Notice with a perfect knowledge of the Rules of the House, and that those hon. Gentlemen who gave Notice of their Bills for Thursday may, perhaps, have exercised a wise discretion.

  THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.
  MR. SPEAKER reported Her Majesty's Speech, made by Her Chancellor, and read it to the House.

  ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
  [FIRST NIGHT.]
  MR. A. R. D. ELLIOT: Sir, I rise to move that a humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, thanking Her Majesty for Her Most Gracious Speech; and in so doing, and in making the few

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  remarks I intend to offer on some of the salient paragraphs of that Speech, I shall have to ask the House for its indulgence and kind consideration. Anyone who heard Her Majesty's Speech read to the House—indeed, anyone who ever read a Queen's Speech—must be struck, in the first place, with the immense range and variety of topics with which it deals. It cannot but be that Her Majesty, reigning not only over 35,000,000 of inhabitants in these Islands, but ruling, also, over large districts in three Continents, and being, moreover, the Sovereign of a country which stands first in point of trade and as a seafaring nation—it cannot but be that in every region of the world Her Majesty's interests and the interests of this country may be touched by others.
  Sir, it is satisfactory to find that, notwithstanding the wide character of the interests of this country, notwithstanding how widely spread are those interests throughout the world, Her Majesty is able to assure us that her relations with Foreign Powers remain in a satisfactory condition. We may assume without rashness, with reference to those great Powers which are not named in Her Majesty's Speech, that the relations existing between this country and those Powers are, at all events, satisfactory; and I find that the only great European Power specially mentioned is that of our nearest neighbour—France. In connection with the paragraph in Her Majesty's Speech relating to France, I would refer to the Speech from the Throne on the Prorogation of Parliament in August last. In that Speech we were told that the
  "Occurrences arising out of the French operations in Madagascar form the subject of communications with the Government of France, which, conducted in the spirit of friendship, will, I doubt not, lead to satisfactory results."
  It must be gratifying to all Parties, and to hon. Members in every part of the House, to know that those anticipations have been fulfilled—that those communications were carried out in the spirit indicated, and that they have led to a satisfactory termination. This, no doubt, has been brought about by the two great Powers treating each other in a proper and self-respecting spirit—that is to say, by approaching the question as private friends between whom offence has arisen—the one not putting forward a
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  claim for damages in a huckstering spirit, or pressing for any humiliating apology; the other not refusing to admit that offence has been given, nor refusing also to give to Mr. Shaw, who had been injured, substantial compensation. Those who have referred to the precedent of 1844—I mean the Pritchard case—will see a great likeness between what then took place and what has recently occurred, and that the result now achieved is as satisfactory and very similar to the termination which was in the former case put to the difficulty between this country and France. We must, therefore, all hope and feel that the soreness, which naturally arose between the two countries, has been satisfactorily put an end to; that the dignity of each has been preserved; and that we may now look forward to uninterrupted cordial relations between ourselves and France.
  The paragraph of Her Majesty's Speech which deals with the different Provinces of South Africa is also of a re-assuring character. We find that Her Majesty has directed communications to be held with the Representatives of the Government of the Transvaal, and that it is to be expected that solutions will be arrived at of the difficult questions as to the maintenance of order and the suppression of misconduct on the frontiers of that country.
  But, Sir, although it is gratifying to know that these communications are likely to proceed satisfactorily, it cannot be supposed that it is to that portion of the Continent of Africa our thoughts are, at the present time, chiefly turned. There is no doubt that the greater number of the subjects of the Queen are regarding, at the present moment, with anxious interest the proceedings in the North-Eastern part of that Continent. They are following the Mission of the very gallant British officer who has been despatched to the Valley of the Nile; they are following, with hope and some anxiety, his long journey up that river; and one cannot but feel that a new personal interest has attached, and now attaches, to what is taking place in the upper regions of the Nile. That personal interest has created a far greater amount of feeling as to what has occurred, or is likely to occur, in the Soudan, than would have attached to the question whether or not Egyptian authority was to be preserved in that

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  Province, or as to the success or failure of the operations of the False Prophet. The interest is naturally extremely great in the movements of General Gordon. I should like to point out, in connection with this subject, the position in which Her Majesty tells us the Egyptian occupation stands; and in order to show what have been the objects always openly avowed by Her Majesty's Government, both as to the sending out and as to the maintenance of British troops in Egypt, I shall again refer to the Speech from the Throne in August last. In that Speech we were informed that—
  "The work of administrative re-organization has steadily advanced; "
  and that—
  "The constant direction of My efforts to the maintenance of established rights, to the tranquillity of the East, and to the welfare of the Egyptian people remain unchanged."
  Sir, that policy, as might have been supposed, was duly acted upon. That policy, announced in August last, was, up to November, successfully carried out under the able management of Englishmen, servants of the Crown, in Egypt. A great deal was done to carry out the intentions of Her Majesty's Government. A military force was organized, with a view to maintaining order in the country; provision was made for taxing Europeans in respect of some imposts which, until then, they had almost entirely escaped; it was further provided that the number of European officials, much too large for the necessities of the country, should be reduced, and steps were also taken to improve the administration of justice. All this, as I have said, went on successfully, and without interruption, down to November last. Then, Sir, as the House will remember, came the calamitous event of the ruin of General Hicks and his Army. That event came, when, consequent upon the great progress that had been made in carrying out the intentions of Her Majesty's Government, the Queen, as we have been informed by Her Majesty's Gracious Message, had ordered the evacuation of Cairo by the British troops and their concentration at Alexandria. It cannot be contended for a moment with any justice or truth that in the policy sketched out by Her Majesty's Government hitherto, or, indeed, in the circumstances of the case,
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  this country had come under any sort of responsibility to maintain Egyptian authority over the Province of the Soudan. But, Sir, as I have said, upon the happening of the terrible disaster to the Army of General Hicks, this state of things arose. There was panic spread throughout Egypt, although the place where the disaster bad taken place was at an immense distance from that part of the country occupied by our troops; and Her Majesty's Government thought it right to countermand the order which had been given for the evacuation of Cairo, and that countermand was given for precisely the same reason that British troops had been sent to Egypt—namely, that the internal tranquillity of Egypt was to be maintained—that the guarantee of peace and order in the country should not be weakened, and thus endanger the good work which, as I have shown, proceeded uninterruptedly until November last. But let us consider, for a moment, what was the position of the British troops in occupation. There was a force at Cairo and a force at Alexandria; the British troops were resting upon, or were within easy reach of, the Mediterranean. The defeat of General Hicks by the False Prophet had taken place far beyond the Nubian deserts, at a place in almost the same latitude as Madras; and it cannot be supposed that Her Majesty's Government were in a position, even if they wished to do so, to exercise direct authority over the Soudan. There being no obligation of duty, and no obligation in the way of interest, to any direct interference on the part of Her Majesty's Government with the affairs of that Province, it became necessary to consider what advice should be given to the Khedive. That advice, which, as we are informed by Her Majesty's Gracious Speech, was given to the Khedive, was probably contemporaneous with, or was given immediately after, the orders of Her Majesty countermanding the withdrawal of the British troops from Cairo. That advice was that the Egyptian authority, which had been already shown to be too weak to be maintained over the Soudan, should be withdrawn from the interior of the Provinces. No suggestion was made to the Khedive that he should withdraw from anything more than the interior of that country, because it was thought desirable, and

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  the House no doubt will feel it to be desirable that the ports on the Red Sea should be kept out of the hands of those who might possibly make use of them to facilitate the Slave Trade. Sir, the permission given by Her Majesty to General Gordon to assist the Khedive was given distinctly in order to carry out the constant policy of Her Majesty's Government, and in order to enable the Khedive to carry out that evacuation of the interior of the Soudan, which Her Majesty's Government have thought desirable. Whether or not any such policy can be advocated as that of direct interference by the British authority, or even by British arms, in the interior of Africa, at that enormous distance from Cairo—if any such policy can be suggested—it cannot, at all events, be for a moment contended that it would be other than a new policy. Her Majesty's Government hitherto have been content, in their temporary occupation of Egypt, to ensure tranquillity and order, and to give assistance to the Egyptian people by a better administration of their affairs, and by the better organization of their forces, to enable them in time to stand by themselves.
  I pass now to matters nearer home, and I am sure that there can be no possible difference amongst us as to the paragraph of Her Majesty's Speech which relates to the state of Ireland being of a most satisfactory and re-assuring character. It is a matter, perhaps, hardly of surprise, but it is a matter of regret, that in the very arduous duties which have had to be performed by Lord Spencer and by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland they have been subject to attack on both sides—I think I am not saying too much by very unbridled tongues. But, Sir, the Lord Lieutenant and my right hon. Friend have not swerved in any degree from the path of duty. They went to Ireland in order to maintain the law there; to maintain the law without fear and without favour; and it is lamentable that in so doing they should have been exposed to the censure they have incurred. But all in this House—at least most of us, and most of us throughout the country—feel that the attacks which have been made upon the Lord Lieutenant and my right hon. Friend will only have the effect of increasing
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  the amount of gratitude due to them; and we can all join in congratulating them, as representing the Executive in Ireland, upon the success which Her Majesty's Gracious Speech tells us has been achieved.
  Now, Sir, to look in the direction in which Liberals generally like to look—that is to say, to look forward—Her Majesty's Speech is of an exceptionally important character; and as a Scotchman I may be allowed, first of all, to notice the paragraph at the end relating to Scotch Business. It will be satisfactory to Scotch Members and to the Scotch people to learn that their loudly-expressed wishes in this House for the better administration of Scotch affairs have already received the attention of Her Majesty's Government. It can, I hope, be hardly necessary to explain to English and Irish Members what this movement is which has been so strongly marked in Scotland. I have seen it somewhat infelicitously described as the Scotch Home Rule movement; but there is no wish, either on the part of the Scotch Members or the Scotch people, for any weakening of the authority of the Parliament of the United Kingdom. What we wish, on the contrary, is that Parliament should be better able to do its work than it has hitherto been, and that it should be able to give more rather than less of its attention to matters specially interesting to us. Our hope is that in any arrangement that may be made no injury will be done to the Parliament of the United Kingdom, but that it will become more closely attentive to Scotch affairs. We are well aware also of the advantages that accrue to us from taking a share in the responsibility of the government of a great Empire, and Scotland would be the last place in which any desire would be felt either to escape from the control or to shrink from the responsibilities which attach to it as an important and powerful part of the United Kingdom.
  Sir, there is a Bill of great importance referred to in Her Majesty's Speech—a Bill to provide Municipal Government for the population of this enormous Metropolis. That is a matter of very great importance. It seems a strange thing that for so long the affairs of such a huge Metropolis as this have been conducted in the "happy-go-lucky" way which has been the case hitherto;

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  and it is satisfactory to learn that some sort of arrangement, probably not precisely similar, but somewhat analogous to, those which have been found convenient and useful in the large towns of the country, will be established for London and the Metropolitan districts. It cannot, of course, be forgotten that London is not only the richest, and the greatest, and the most populous of the towns of the world—that it is not only the most important of the towns of Great Britain, but that it is the centre of a great Empire; and it may therefore appear that some matters, which in Provincial towns are properly considered to be the exclusive business of the citizens, are, when we are dealing with the affairs of a great centre like London, naturally considered of exceptional interest, and almost of Imperial importance. These considerations will make the measure one of the most important character.
  I come now to the announcement on the subject of Reform, and I must here be allowed to say that although I should have felt proud on any occasion to move the Address in reply to the Speech from the Throne, it is with extreme satisfaction that I ant able to do so on the present occasion, when the great measure of the Session beginning to-day will be a measure dealing with the representation of the people. Our Constitution, which we all admire, and which we are thoroughly accustomed to, has no greater merit than that of elasticity. No stereotyped, no hard-and-fast Constitution could ever have suited a nation like this. It could not possibly have suited the growing wants of a growing people. From time to time it has been found possible to re-arrange our Constitutional provisions, whilst always preserving the same great elements, so as to give fresh strength and vigour to the Constitution itself. We all know how the great Revolution which was ended in 1088, and which entirely overthrew the old Stuart theory of Monarchy, instead of proving disastrous to the Monarchy itself, established it upon a rational and wider basis, and gave something until then unknown in British history—security for the reigning House, which I need hardly say has not been seriously interrupted in the course of two centuries. In 1832, again, a fresh change, and a very great change indeed, was
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  made in the Constitution. There was then established, or rather re-established, a general and universal system of popular election, and it was found that the increased numbers who were introduced to take art in the government of the country strengthened Parliament for the discharge of its legislative functions, and also did much to give greater strength and stability to the Institutions of the country. It was chiefly due to the great reforms and changes then brought about that half a generation after the passing of the Reform Act, when Governments on the Continent of Europe were tottering either to their foundations or to their fall, in this country our Institutions remained almost without a shock. This was due to the wide basis on which those Institutions had been placed; and if there is any lesson to be learned from previous steps in the direction of Reform, it is that the well-tried Institutions of the country will stand all the firmer by being given a wider basis. Not so long ago, in 1866–7, the subject of Reform was again discussed in this country; and the Reform Act of 1887 has also proved that increased power and energy to legislate in the direction of benefiting the whole people were acquired by Parliament, and again it was found that no Institutions of the country suffered any danger whatever. But as the Constitution and the nation did not begin to grow at the year 1688, so the Constitution and the nation did not cease to grow in 1867; and the Liberal Government of to-day is doing what Liberal Governments have done in like circumstances in the past—they are introducing a measure to bring additional classes within what has been called "the pale of the franchise." It is not likely, I need hardly say, that, considering who are the right hon. Gentlemen who form the Government, they should approach such a question as this in any other light than as true friends of the Constitution—it is not likely that they will attack the Constitution; and I believe that Liberals of all sections will be united in hoping that they will strengthen it by a very considerable measure of enfranchisement. In the paragraph of Her Majesty's Speech upon this subject it is contemplated to extend the franchise with which we are already acquainted, beyond certain local limits, rather than

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  to invent a new one; and, therefore, if for no other reason, I should hope there is no cause to anticipate a repetition of the foolish fears of 1866. I have noticed in this House a method of debate which I myself think unsatisfactory—the habit of hon. Members opposite of claiming the unexpressed and unavowed sympathies of a certain portion of the Liberal Party. By a process to which thought-reading is a joke, they claim to know what are the real wishes of a certain section of the Liberal Party. I do not profess to speak with much experience of this House; but after the four years during which I have sat here, I can only say that those taunts have been used on occasions when, for my part, I could not find out that they were warranted by facts; and I believe that, on this occasion, it will be found that the Liberal Party throughout all its sections is united in the cause of Reform, Without being a prophet, I can anticipate that the Whig Leaders of the past will be held up for our example. We shall be told that the reforms sketched out would have done something more than startle such a sound Whig as Lord Melbourne, or that they are enough almost to make Lord Palmerston turn in his grave. I should like to point out that the names of Melbourne and Palmerston are not the only names cherished by the Whig Party. There are the no less Whig and much more inspiriting names of Lord Grey and Lord John Russell, Leaders who were in the very van of Reform; and at a time, moreover, when Reform, from the magnitude of the changes contemplated, really seemed, in the estimation of many persons, to deserve the much more terrible name of Revolution. It would not become me, and I have no information on which I could do so, to anticipate at all precisely the nature of the proposals which will be submitted for our consideration; but from the constitution of Her Majesty's Government we have a right to expect that the measure will be thorough-going—that it will be a complete and straightforward measure. The time that has elapsed since the question of the county franchise was first mooted has been sufficient, at all events, to ensure that the subject has been thoroughly considered. It is now 12 years since it was brought before the House of Commons by my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Lord
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  Lieutenant of Ireland; it it is seven years since those proposals received the assent of the noble Marquess the Secretary of State for War (the Marquess of Hartington); and it is four years since a General Election expressed an emphatic approval of the principle which they embodied. Moreover, during the last four years, and especially during the last few months, meetings have taken place throughout the country—perfectly orderly, perfectly well-behaved, and perfectly law-abiding. But these meetings were not only orderly and well-behaved, they were also, I am happy to say, perfectly determined; and it is impossible now to doubt what are the wishes with regard to this subject of the great majority of the electors throughout the country. Of course, the clauses which will be of chief interest to us in the measure which will be laid before us are those that deal with enfranchisement and the extension of electoral qualifications; but it is not too much to express a hope, which I do express, feeling with confidence that my anticipations in that respect will not be disappointed, that Her Majesty's Government will also consider, in the measure which they are about to bring forward, the absolute necessity of destroying what I may call the manufacture of fictitious electoral votes. This subject it may be difficult to deal with; but it is to be hoped that Her Majesty's Government will take the matter seriously in hand, and that an end will be put to the monstrous abuse of swamping the political opinions of the various local and rural districts by the introduction of the votes of persons who have no connection, except an artificial one, with those districts where they exercise the franchise. Sir, I would ask even those Members who may not expect as much as I do from such a measure as this to consider not only whether it will be beneficial, but whether it has not now become absolutely necessary. It is the fact that this measure is announced in the Speech from the Throne which gives such exceptional importance to the present Session of Parliament. It does not require to be a prophet to foresee that the fifth Session of the tenth Parliament of the Queen cannot pass away without leaving behind it very serious consequences. What those consequences will be depends,

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  of course, upon Parliament itself, and chiefly, I may say, upon that portion of Parliament congregated within the walls of this House. We have to consider whether those consequences shall produce benefit or mischief to the State. The responsibility weighing upon Her Majesty's Government is immense; but, Sir, responsibility does not fall entirely, and will certainly not rest solely, upon them. After all, a great responsibility rests upon the Leaders of the Opposition. The right hon. Gentleman who leads the Opposition is, no doubt, Leader of a minority; but he is, nevertheless, Leader of a powerful Party both in this House and in the country; and although he is not, in the limited sense in which we use the words here, a Member of the Government, he is yet one of those who do very essentially take part in the actual governing of the country. It often happens that the Leader of the Opposition may be almost the second man in the State; and, with the power which he can bring to bear on debates in this House and on discussion in the country, his influence is rather out of proportion to the somewhat modest position which to some persons he might appear to fill. Still, it remains true that he is one of those to whom the guidance of the country is in some degree committed. We may hope that the country will not be disappointed in looking forward, not only to the Leaders on this side of the House, but also to the Leaders on the other side, for the exercise of wisdom, of patriotism, and prudence in their action, and in trusting that they will reject, with the contempt it deserves, the advice of such counsellors, if any such there are, who would seem only to care for the winning of some mere Party gain, at the sacrifice of the credit of Parliament and the best interests of the country. After all, Sir, though from time to time it may be the case that in every Party there are some irresponsible persons who speak in unmeasured terms and use language violent but not weighty, we must remember that the bulk of each great Party is of different mettle, and that, however wide may seem the gulf created between us here by Party differences and Party prejudices, the great end of our labours remains the same. Each great Party, I hope, looks forward to serving the best interests of the State; of each great
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  Party it is the chief end to promote the welfare and the good government of the people, and to ensure that so long, at all events, as we have anything to do with it, the strength of the nation shall remain undiminished, and that there shall be no tarnish on the brightness of its name. Sir, I beg to move—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, to convey the thanks of this House for the Most Gracious Speech delivered by Her Command to both Houses of Parliament:
  "Humbly to thank Her Majesty for informing us that Her Majesty continues to hold friendly and harmonious relations with all Foreign Powers:
  "To thank Her Majesty for informing us that Her Majesty's communications with the President of the Trench Republic, arising out of special incidents in Madagascar, have closed in a manner such as tends to confirm the cordial understanding between the two Countries; and that Her Majesty has likewise, in conjunction with the President, appointed a Commission to discuss a basis of arrangement for the future regulation of the Newfoundland Fisheries and the avoidance of disputes:
  "Humbly to thank Her Majesty for informing us that an Agreement has been arrived at with Portugal respecting the River Congo and the adjacent territories; and that arrangements are in progress for the resumption of diplomatic relations with Mexico:
  "To thank Her Majesty for informing us that Negotiations for a Treaty of Commerce with Turkey have commenced; that an Agreement on commercial relations with Spain has been signed, which awaits the sanction of the Cortes; that a revision of the Commercial Treaty with Japan, on a basis generally agreed to by the Treaty Powers, is nearly completed; and that a Treaty of Commerce and Friendship has likewise been signed with Corea:
  "Humbly to thank Her Majesty for informing us that, having had every reason to be satisfied with the tranquillity of Egypt, and with the progress made in the establishment of orderly institutions, Her Majesty gave, during the autumn, instructions for the evacuation of Cairo, for the further reduction of Her Majesty's Military Forces, and for their concentration mainly in Alexandria:
  "Humbly to assure Her Majesty that we learn with regret that in the month of November the Egyptian Army appointed to maintain the rule of the Khedive in the Soudan was defeated and broken up with heavy loss:

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  "To thank Her Majesty for informing us that, upon the occurrence of this defeat, Her Majesty deemed it wise to recall the order Her Majesty had given, as a precaution against the possible effects of the Military reverse in Egypt itself, and to preclude all doubt as to the certain maintenance of its tranquillity, but that while an unforeseen and calamitous necessity has thus required Her Majesty to suspend the measure Her Majesty had adopted, the aim of the Occupation, which has been explained to us at former times, continues without change:
  "Humbly to thank Her Majesty for informing us that Her Majesty has offered to the Egyptian Government such counsels as appeared to be required by a prudent regard to the amount of its resources, and to the social condition of the Country; and that Her Majesty has also despatched Major General Gordon to report on the best means of giving effect to the resolution of the Khedive to withdraw from the interior of the Soudan, and has permitted him to act in the execution of the measure:
  "To thank Her Majesty for informing us that Her Majesty has directed communications to be held with the Delegates, whom the Government of the Transvaal has sent to this Country, for the purpose of urging a reconsideration of the Convention of Pretoria; and that nothing has occurred to discourage the expectation that these communications may be brought to a favourable issue:
  "Humbly to thank Her Majesty for informing us that the Estimates of Charge for the Public Services during the year 1884–5 have been prepared, and will speedily be laid before us:
  "Humbly to assure Her Majesty that we rejoice to learn that Her Majesty anticipates that the Revenue of the current year will not fall short of the expectations upon which we founded our financial arrangements:
  "Humbly to assure Her Majesty that we learn with satisfaction that the condition of Ireland continues to exhibit those features of substantial improvement which Her Majesty described on the two occasions when Her Majesty last addressed us:
  "Humbly to thank Her Majesty for informing us that a measure will at once be presented to us, which will have for its principal object the enlargement of the Occupation Franchise in Parliamentary Elections throughout the United Kingdom:
  "To thank Her Majesty for informing us that a plan will be laid before us for the extension of Municipal Government to the whole
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  Metropolis; and that the preparation under this head, which has been made by Her Majesty's directions, has not been limited to London; but that the actual presentation of further Pills of the same class must depend upon the progress we may be enabled to make with the weighty business which has been already set forth:
  "Humbly to assure Her Majesty that our careful consideration shall be given to the measures which may be submitted to us; and that we earnestly trust that the blessing of Almighty God may attend our labours."
  MR. SAMUEL SMITH: In rising to second the Address, I desire to express my deep sense of the honour done to the great constituency which I am privileged to represent, in being asked to perform this duty. I congratulate the House upon the general tranquillity which prevails throughout the world, and the excellent relations which this country continues to maintain with all the great Powers of Europe. This freedom from foreign complications offers a golden opportunity for much-needed domestic legislation, and I trust that Parliament will take full advantage of it, and support Her Majesty's Government in the valuable reforms of which Notice has been given to-day.
  The House will be glad to learn that the Revenue is likely to fulfil the expectations of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and that, too, notwithstanding that trade continues dull and profits small in all the great industries of the nation. Unfortunately, the elasticity of British trade has suffered considerable abatement for several years past; but it is satisfactory to think that the mass of the labouring population is pretty well employed and fairly well off, owing to the cheapness and abundance of food. I have to thank the Government, on behalf of the commercial classes, for their vigilant attention to the interests of trade—they are negotiating Treaties with Spain, Turkey, Japan, and the Corea. Of these Treaties, some are in a more advanced stage than others, and I would especially commend their action with respect to Spain, for we have suffered for a long time from the almost prohibitory tariff of that country, and I trust that success will crown their efforts.
  With regard to Ireland, I rejoice that there has been a marked diminution of

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  crime and increased prosperity over a considerable portion of that country. It is, however, deeply to be regretted that in the Province of Ulster there has been a revival of old and half-forgotten feuds; but it is to be hoped that the Government will firmly use the powers entrusted to them, in order to prevent further collisions and effusion of blood in that Province, as well as in other parts of the Sister Island. Nevertheless, one cannot help feeling that, after all, something more is wanted than mere physical force to keep the peace in Ireland. There needs to be diffused a far deeper sense of the evil wrought by bitter words, and of the moral responsibility which rests upon all those who are in a position to guide public opinion to see that their language tends to promote peace on earth and good will amongst men. I feel sure that no deeper desire animates our great Leader than to wipe out, as far as may be, the sad memories of a melancholy past, and I am sure that I interpret the feelings of the House when I say that we wish to be spared the painful necessity of having exceptional legislation in one of the three Kingdoms. I appeal, therefore, to those who influence the opinion and feelings of the Irish people, to make it easy to return to Constitutional government, and to meet us half way in the attempt to do equal justice to every section of the inhabitants of the British Isles.
  A population almost as large as that of Ireland is looking forward with eager interest to the promised London Reform Bill. It has often been felt to be an anomaly that the Metropolis alone of all the cities and towns in the country should be deprived of local self-government. It has suffered intensely from conflicting jurisdictions and feeble administration, and the time has fully come when an end must be put to the state of chaos which now prevails. Next to the Franchise Bill, which my hon. Friend the Member for Roxburghshire (Mr. A. Elliot) so ably dealt with, and which, therefore, calls for no comment from me, no measure excites more public interest; and that interest has been greatly deepened since the bitter cry of "Outcast London" has sounded in our ears. The nation has at last awakened to the fact that a hideous mass of human misery lies at the base of our social fabric. The wealthiest capital in the
  56
  world has also the deepest abyss of squalid poverty. We intend that these evils shall be dealt with, as far as may be, by right legislation; but it is rather the duty of local, than Imperial, bodies to grapple with such questions as the housing of the poor, the enforcement of moral and sanitary regulations, and the provision of open spaces, public baths, and facilities for healthy recreation. We look, therefore, with hope to the creation of a great municipal body in London, which will distinguish itself by attacking social abuses of every kind, and make this City one that the poor as well as the rich may be proud to live in.
  I rejoice that the great cause of temperance has received the attention of Her Majesty's Government, and that they intend to deal with it on the principle of giving control over the liquor trade to the ratepayers. I trust that the provisions of the various Bills relating to local government will contain such powers as will satisfy the great army of temperance reformers. I do not speak of extremists, but of those who mourn over the excessive intemperance of the masses of our fellow-countrymen, for they know only too well that our squalid poverty is mainly the result of this national vice. I venture to go a stop further, and say that nothing will satisfy the deep feeling of the nation except such measures as will largely diminish the temptations to drunkenness, and such as will, in some measure, protect those poor besotted victims who cannot protect themselves. We have given far too great facilities to this dangerous trade in the past, and we are reaping the harvest in an hereditary pauper class which poisons our national life and remains untouched by all the amenities of civilization. The time has come to grapple with this plague; the conscience of the nation is alive to the sin and the danger of spending nearly £130,000,000 annually upon strong drink, and the Government will receive the support of ail right-thinking men in devising machinery that will cope in some adequate degree with this terrible evil.
  I pass now to a measure that excites great interest amongst the large tea-faring and shipowning classes of the country. The lamentable loss of life at sea is a painful drawback to that great trade which gives us our maritime supremacy among the nations of the world.

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  Many honest attempts have been made of late years to reduce these casualties. The name of Mr. Plimsoll will always be held in honour as the champion of the British sailor. Partly as the result of his agitation, the Board of Trade has assumed very extensive functions of control and surveillance of late years. Yet it must be admitted that the results have belied the expectations formed. The frightful tale of human misery goes on almost unchecked, and the conviction has been formed that we must act on different lines. My right hon. Friend the indefatigable President of the Board of Trade is prepared to show a more excellent way. He will lay before the House a Bill, the object of which is to increase the sense of responsibility on the part of shipowners; to make it the interest of all, as it is already their duty, to keep their ships in a seaworthy state, and to disconnect the hope of profit from the loss of a ship. It is, I feel sure, in no spirit of unfairness to an honourable calling that the Bill is introduced. It is cheerfully conceded that the great body of British shipowners are an honour to their country; but it cannot be concealed that there are some exceptions to the rule, and the law will be altered so as to be a check on evildoers, while not interfering with those who do well. No doubt, this difficult question will be dealt with as successfully in a Grand Committee as the Bankruptcy Bill was last Session.
  That most useful body, the Railway Commission, will have its powers extended, and the control which the State most wisely maintains over our great railway system will be strengthened. Few subjects interest our commercial classes more than just and uniform rates of carriage; and these can only be assured by a powerful central jurisdiction.
  The country will also be glad to learn that the repression of corrupt practices at elections is not to be confined to national politics, but is to be extended to municipal elections as well; and we must hope that the effect will be to purify that important fountain of our nation's well-being.
  I rejoice that the Government intend to meet the strong temperance sentiment of Ireland, by introducing a Bill to complete the system of Sunday closing of public-houses. We shall then have
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  three out of four portions of the United Kingdom privileged to have one day in the week free from those temptations to intemperance. Is it too much to express the hope that the remaining portion will demand its inclusion within the scope of this beneficent law, and strengthen the hands of the Government to complete the sacred chain that guards the Day of Rest.
  As representing a large body of Welsh constituents, I am glad that the claims of the Principality to higher education continue to engage the attention of the Government. Nothing is more creditable to Wales than its eager desire to perfect its educational system. The efforts of the poorer people are beyond all praise; and any aid the National Exchequer can give will be well spent among that peaceful, industrious, and religious people.
  I may add, in conclusion, that the country expects much from the devolution of Parliamentary work on the Grand Committees, and hopes for a term of beneficent legislation unhindered by obstruction or vexatious Party strife. This Parliament has large arrears of Business to overtake; a full tale of work has been set before it to-day; therefore let us hope that this work will be done so as to deserve the gratitude of the nation we represent and the Empire we govern.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That, &c."—[See page 52.]
  MR. BOURKEsaid, in rising to propose an Amendment to the Address in reply to the Speech from the Throne, he desired to make an apology, or rather an explanation, to both sides of the House for intervening so soon in the course of the debate, as he was quite sure the House generally looked forward to and would have been glad to hear the speech of his right hon. Friend the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote), according to the usual precedent. His explanation, however, was a very simple one, and he hoped it would be accepted by the House. He was there that evening in obedience to a wish of his right hon. Friend. He must beg to be allowed to congratulate both the hon. Gentlemen the Mover and the Seconder of the Address upon the very great ability of the speeches they had delivered in performing that task, and having done that,

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  he would move the following Amendment:—
  "We humbly direct Her Majesty's attention to the want of success which has so far attended the attempts of Her Majesty's Ministers to place the affairs of Egypt on a sound footing, either as regards the reconstruction of its Government, the re-organisation of justice, the satisfactory adjustment of its finances, or the tranquillity and security of its frontier provinces; and we humbly submit to Her Majesty, that the course which Her Majesty's Ministers have pursued has tended to weaken the authority of the Native Government, without providing any adequate substitute, and that such a course is fraught with danger to Egypt, and tends indefinitely to postpone the establishment of a state of things in which the withdrawal of Her Majesty's Forces will be possible; while it dangerously increases the responsibilities and liabilities of this Country both towards Egypt itself and the Powers of Europe; and, further, we humbly express our opinion that no measures will he effective for attaining the objects of Her Majesty's Policy in Egypt, and providing for the improvement and security of that Country, unless they are founded on a distinct recognition by Her Majesty's Ministers of the obligations which they have incurred by their intervention in the administration of Egyptian affairs."
  He thought the House would not expect him to refer to those subjects mentioned in Her Majesty's Gracious Speech which did not relate to his Amendment. He presumed that if any doubts whatever had existed in the minds of hon. Members as to the prudence of moving such an Amendment, or as to the duty of the Opposition on this occasion, a perusal of the Speech from the Throne must have dispelled any doubts that had been entertained. He observed, in reading the paragraphs relating to Egypt, that the same uncertainty, the same obscurity, the same vacillation characterized those paragraphs which characterized from the first the policy of Her Majesty's Government. More than that, he thought that those paragraphs contained statements that were very difficult to reconcile with the facts which the Government had already authoritatively laid before the House, and the events which had occurred before the whole world. He would not dwell upon the policy which led to the war; he would not dwell upon the negotiations with France, which he and many of his hon. Friends thought stirred up Mussulman fanaticism all over the world, making Arabi Pasha into a hero, and causing a rebellion to be turned into a great national movement; nor would he dwell upon
  60
  the unnecessary slights which he thought this country had given to the Sultan of Turkey, nor upon the events of the war which led to the burning of Alexandria, to the trials of Arabi Pasha and the others, nor to the exiles who were now in Ceylon. These subjects, no doubt, were interesting if one desired to form an opinion as to whether the late war was or was not necessary; but he wished on this occasion to draw attention to the events which had taken place since the war broke out in Egypt, and the position in which the country now was, and that which they now occupied in it. Having conquered the country, having destroyed the Army, and taken possession of the capital, there was no limit to the grand words and fine language which Her Majesty's Government used with respect to the duties which lay before them. The Government of Egypt was to be reconstituted, the whole Administration was to be re-organized, the people were to be rescued from anarchy, and a beneficent Government was to govern the people, and to bring them justice, liberty, and happiness, based upon a sure foundation. That was the programme held out to the House of Commons and to the world, and that was the prospect they had hoped and were told they would see realized. Anyone who thought over these subjects could not help admitting that the Government undertook a most gigantic task. But they approached that task with a light heart, and apparently without thoroughly seeing the enormous difficulties before them. They chose for their first instrument and first officer for carrying out this great policy one of the most distinguished and able men, he believed, in Her Majesty's Service, whether civil or military. Lord Dufferin was ordered from Constantinople to Cairo, in order to sketch, according to the instructions of the Government, a plan for a new Constitution. No one could read that famous despatch, and the many other despatches which Lord Uniform wrote at that time, without confessing—gladly confessing—that the noble Lord performed his duty with all that ability and knowledge of foreign countries and of Colonial countries which had always distinguished him. After that despatch came home it was immediately adopted by the Government and made the foundation of the whole of the new Constitution

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  for Egypt. That was done without the slightest hesitation; and he believed various Khedivial decrees had already been passed giving effect to some of the provisions of that Constitution. The country had not boon vouchsafed that information by Her Majesty's Government which would enable him to state with any degree of certainty how far these Khedivial decrees had been issued; and, therefore, if he was obliged to have recourse to the usual channels of information, and not to authoritative documents, it was not his fault, but the fault of the Government. There was one important fact connected with the despatch of Lord Dufferin, and to his mind it had always appeared the most important one, because it showed from the first, he thought, that although Lord Dufferin had instructions to frame this Constitution upon what they might call Parliamentary lines, and although he executed his task with all that literary skill which he was known to possess, there ran through a portion of that despatch a lurking impression upon the mind of Lord Dufferin that this Constitution was particularly ill-suited to Egypt. There was a warning contained in that despatch that after all it was a paper Constitution; and that paper Constitutions were comparatively easily made, and were proverbially insecure and utterly unsuited to Oriental countries. Having given this Constitution, however, or proposed to give it, to Egypt, Lord Dufferin said—and said with a warning voice which he (Mr. Bourke) was quite certain his Lordship meant to be in earnest—that it was necessary to prevent the fabric we had reared from tumbling to pieces, and unless we were prepared to shield and protect the system that we were about to introduce and adopt, it was vain to expect a success, or that Eastern politicians would identify themselves with its existence, and that no subversive influence must be allowed to intervene between England and the Egypt she had re-created. Thereupon the Army, under a new English General of great distinction, was re-created; and it was thought necessary by the Government that this Army should have all the characteristics of our own Military Force. They had, moreover, refused to allow Baker Pasha, who had already done so much in that direction, to re-organize that Army, and
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  to take command of it, because he was not on full pay in Her Majesty's Service. They, therefore, took the command out of the hands of Baker Pasha, and gave it to that distinguished officer, Sir Evelyn Wood. The next step they took was to re-organize the Police; and that step was also a very significant one, having regard to future events. In the beginning the command of the Police was given to Baker Pasha. They said now, however, that he had gone wrong, and that everything that had been done must be undone. They told him that he must send away all the Albanians he already had, for they would never do for this new police, which was to be a civil force, that everything that made it in any way like a military body must be done away with. A distinguished financier was transferred from India to Egypt, and another able financier was brought from Constantinople to advise the Khedive and his Government on all financial matters. Englishmen were placed in every Department of the State, and foreigners were dismissed or pensioned. Her Majesty's Government, in fact, endeavoured to make themselves absolute masters of Egypt; the Egyptian Ministers were relegated to obscurity, were deprived of every scrap of power they had, and seemed only to be retained in Office, apparently, for the purpose of drawing their salaries and bearing the blame of a new system that was imposed on them, which they could not understand. Now, the question arose—What progress had been made in realizing the prospects held out to the people of Egypt from the first? The hon. Gentleman the Mover of the Address had made some observations with regard to the good work that was going on in Egypt. The hon. Gentleman, however, must have seen that country only through the roseate hues of the Queen's Speech, without making any inquiry whatever on his own account on that subject. For himself, he (Mr. Bourke) could not speak from official documents, because he had not got them; but all he could say was that every visitor who had passed the last few months in Egypt, and whom he had had the honour of meeting—every correspondent who wrote to the newspapers, every author of a book on the subject bore the same testimony—namely, that everything in the various

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  Departments of the Government of Egypt was in a state of deadlock; that the people were suffering from exactly the same causes as had been described hundreds of times; that justice was delayed; and that the indebtedness of the fellaheen remained precisely what it was before, with the prospect of becoming much worse. Nothing had been done in the way shadowed out by Lord Dufferin to relieve the fellaheen from the crying evils to which they were exposed, or from that system of usury which everyone acquainted with Egypt knew to be so frightful. The cadastral system of survey begun by the late Government, which must be the foundation of any just and rational system of taxation, land reform, and finance, had been starved from the want of funds, while the cruel evils of conscription and of a most oppressive system of usury, crushing all life and hope out of the unfortunate Natives, remained. Mr. Gibson was sent by the late Government, who advised the Khedive to take measures for carrying out a thorough cadastral survey. The indemnity claims also were unpaid, and we had a considerable responsibility connected with those claims; for, no matter what had been the immediate cause of the burning of Alexandria, there could not be any denial of the fact that had it not been for our presence in Alexandria that conflagration would never have taken place. Then, again, there was the important subject of the Capitulations, as to which it was impossible for the country to be well governed so long as they existed. He did not for a moment say that, under certain circumstances in the East, the Capitulations were not necessary; but if all those great reforms were to be introduced quickly into Egypt, there could be no excuse for maintaining those Capitulations, which were the greatest source of heartburning and the greatest impediment to financial reforms; and every enlightened Egyptian Minister disliked the very name of them. Meantime the finances of the country were in a most deplorable condition; and he believed that, irrespective of all the claims arising out of the burning of Alexandria, £2,000,000 or £3,000,000 had been added to the permanent Debt of that country. At the same time, there was this further ominous fact, that 16 months of the policy pursued by Her Majesty's Government had already exhausted the
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  borrowing powers of that country, and there was, he maintained, throughout the country a general decline of credit and confidence. These remarks he desired to apply only to Egypt Proper, and not to the Soudan, although the distinction between the two portions of the country was somewhat of modern and European invention. [Laughter.] The Prime Minister, he was afraid, did not agree; but some of Her Majesty's Ministers had described the Soudan as a recent acquisition—a description which was misleading, for the Soudan was conquered by Mehemet Ali more than 50 years ago. The Opposition were told that they ought not to complain of the existing state of things, because Her Majesty's Government had given a grand Constitution to Egypt, with a Legislative Council and an elective Assembly. He said boldly, however, that no one who had had any experience in Egypt had the slightest faith in the Constitution which was being imposed on that country. The patient was, in fact, dying while the doctors were experimenting on his miserable frame. The Government had given Egypt a grand Constitution founded on the Anglo-Saxon model, but did anyone who knew that country have the slightest faith in the efficacy of a system founded upon such a basis? The hon. Member for Waterford (Mr. Villiers Stuart), a Friend and quasi-official of Her Majesty's Government, who had been ordered to report on the condition of Egypt, stated that he went to that country prejudiced in favour of a Legislative Council, Parliamentary institutions, and all the rest of it, but that after examining hundreds of witnesses and travelling over every Province of Egypt, he was perfectly convinced that such institutions were utterly unsuited to the country. They were not the kind of institutions the fellaheen wanted. What the fellaheen wanted was to have the load of debt removed from their shoulders, taxation to be placed on a fair basis, the land to be irrigated, justice to be simply and fairly administered, the cruelty of conscription to be done away with, and security to be afforded for life and property. That was what the fellaheen wanted, and it was our duty to have tried to give it to them. The system which had been set up by Her Majesty's Government could not be worked without an innumerable host of highly-paid

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  English functionaries. The system might be suitable to an Anglo-Saxon community; but be would ask the bon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell), or anyone who bad administered a Native State, was that the kind of Constitution they had set up in India, for instance? At any rate, Sir Lepel Griffin, who spoke with great authority on this subject, bad said that above all things it was most important that we should utilize Native officials as much as possible; that we should retain as much as possible local institutions, and avoid as much as possible bringing in unsympathetic European officials to administer justice they did not understand. In Egypt, however, they bad placed the Khedive, his Ministers, and the European officials in an embarrassing and unfortunate position. They had forced that Constitution upon them, deprived them of all power and authority, and they said to the European officials—"This is the system you are bound to administer; and although you are ignorant of the language and even of the customs of the people, you must, somehow or other, persuade the Ministers that this is a system which is good for the country, although they themselves have no confidence in it." He would gladly read to the House an extract of a letter from an eminent authority on Egyptian affairs; he was not at liberty to mention his name; but he was sure his opinion was one which the House would value. He declared that the English bad destroyed all semblance of the original Egyptian system of government—an imperfect system it was true—but still a system, and they had put in its place something which would never survive the departure of British troops from Egypt. For his own part, be declined to share in that work at all; he declined to be made a figure-head for carrying out reforms which he believed to be worthless. The English Government were not only unpopular, they were making themselves ridiculous in the eyes of Europe; and if they wished to have Egypt governed after their own fashion they must be responsible. That was the opinion of a gentleman whose judgment he believed would be accepted with confidence. Her Majesty's Government, unmindful of the warnings which were given to them as to supporting a system which they had
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  given up, but more intent upon preserving peace below the Gangway than on preserving peace in Egypt, had, at the instance of hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House, kept on saying that they were about to withdraw our troops from that country, and so remove the only sign intelligible to an Egyptian that we meant to maintain order, for such a declaration was interpreted by the Egyptians to mean that England no longer wished to concern herself with their country. Any declaration made respecting the goodwill of the Government for Egypt they regarded as mere nonsense, because it was very well known that as soon as the English vacated Egypt every vestige of their system would at once be swept away. They must remember the effect of a declaration that they proposed at no distant date to evacuate the country. No one would serve under a Government that proclaimed its own speedy dissolution, and no surprise ought to be felt that their English officials felt a difficulty in finding Egyptian officials to work with them, and discovered that it was impossible to overcome the passive inertia which prevailed in every Department of the State. While sympathizing with all his heart in the desire to withdraw from Egypt, he could not forget that this question of annexation was carefully considered by Her Majesty's late Government, and that, although from some quarters of Europe it met with great encouragement, this policy was rejected advisedly by Lord Beacons-field. The policy and system of Her Majesty's Government could not be worked without English support. He did not believe that anybody could think for a moment that it would for six months survive our departure from the country. Yet Her Majesty's Government had wilfully shut their eyes to the necessity for occupying Egypt, and doing that which their own acts had rendered absolutely necessary. The way in which the question of the Suez Canal was treated last Session had also made the whole subject of the withdrawal of our troops from Egypt still more difficult, because so long as England occupied Egypt the Suez Canal was safe; but if they withdrew, after having given over the monopoly of the canalization of the Isthmus of Suez to the French Company, what guarantee

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  had they of the safety of the road to India? The Government still wilfully shut their eyes to the consequences of their own acts, which had brought a crushing blow on Egypt, sent thousands of Egyptian troops to their doom, incurred the loss of many English lives, and deprived Egypt of many Provinces, giving an enormous impulse to the Slave Trade, destroying all the efforts of our great civilizers and travellers, such as Livingstone, Burton, Speke, and Baker, increasing Mahomedan fanaticism all over the world, and enormously increasing and multiplying our responsibilities. Before Lord Dufferin went to Egypt the question of the Soudan was brought forward in that House. It was well known by Her Majesty's Government to be in the greatest state of disorder, but they had declined to interfere there. They had known for a long time of the wretched system of conscription which prevailed for the Soudan, under which old men were dragged away in chains to render unwilling service to their tyrannical oppressors. They had directed Lord Dufferin to report on the condition of Egypt Proper; but all this time the Government were perfectly aware that there was one man, and one man alone, who was thoroughly acquainted with the whole question, but General Gordon was never asked a single question on the subject, and they allowed months and months to pass without taking his advice with respect to a matter on which he was competent to speak with the utmost weight of authority. On the contrary, General Stewart, a most gallant officer, was sent out to report, and a most interesting Report he prepared on the Soudan. But what did he say? He said that among the causes of the revolt were the suppression of the Slave Trade and military weakness. Over-taxation was, in his judgment, another of the causes. But he added that, in many cases, the Natives were compelled to provide for their taxes by engaging in the Slave Trade. Her Majesty's Government knew all these things, and yet they kept on declaring their own irresponsibility. It might be urged that Egypt and the Soudan were separate countries, but that was not so; the Soudan was ruled from Cairo, and so long as we held Cairo we were responsible for the Soudan. In fact, the attitude of Her Majesty's Government with regard to the Soudan
  68
  was altogether inconsistent with their position in respect to Egypt Proper, and they had no excuse for not recognizing the condition of affairs which had been brought about in the Soudan by their own bad management. the right hon. Gentleman the Member for North Devon, last year, stated that there seemed to be something like a rebellion in Egypt, and that it might easily assume proportions which might shake the Governing Body of the country as it had not been shaken before. Her Majesty's Government seemed to think at the time that a period might arrive when we should be obliged to interfere in Egypt; but no measures were taken to assume the responsibility which properly belonged to them in the matter. Lord Dufferin, in his Report, treated the question of the Soudan at great length, and Lord Dufferin never for a moment seemed to contemplate the abandonment of the Soudan; indeed, he pointed out that Egypt could not be expected to acquiesce in any such proposal. He therefore advocated the development of the Provinces, and even went so far as to propose the making of a railway from Suakim to Berber, which would be used by pilgrims, and which would open up the whole of that vast country and cause an expansion of commerce with its civilizing effects. Lord Dufferin also dealt with the great question of the Slave Trade; he made certain recommendations which were not adopted. Things went from bad to worse. The Mahdi obtained an accession of strength every day, which was not to be wondered at, as he knew that the English Government had publicly declined to interfere. Lord Dufferin showed that the condition of the Soudan had always been a matter of prime importance with statesmen who were connected with Egypt, yet the Government had determined to do nothing, and that determination had been the main cause of the frightful disaster that had ensued to General Hicks's Army. When it was too late, and many English officers had been killed, the Government undertook that responsibility which they ought to have undertaken long before. Then came the murder of Consul Moncrieff. For his part, he was certain of this—that Consul Moncrieff died in the belief that he was discharging his duty, and that it was in that belief that he took that fatal journey, and not from a

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  mere love of adventure. By his murder the Service had lost a most meritorious and gallant officer, and it would be well if the Government would state whether they gave him orders to undertake the expedition which terminated in his death. He would ask, also, whether it was true that Sir Evelyn Baring was present at the Council of Egyptian Ministers when it was decided to send Baker Pasha to Suakim? In carrying out his task he had to take not a military but a civil force with him; while the two Armies in Egypt, under the control of Her Majesty's Government, but paid by Egypt, were relegated to the duties which a civil force ought to undertake. Baker Pasha seemed to have no faith in the expedition on which he was sent, knowing what he did of the Egyptian authorities, for he was perfectly certain that, controlled as they were by the Egyptian Government, they would supply him with worthless material. Material which might have been of great use was to be found in the troops of Zoebehr Pasha, of whom he (Mr. Bourke) had heard the following report. When Zoebehr Pasha volunteered to go to the Soudan, hundreds of these Black men said to him that, though they did not wish to go, they would only go where he took them. For some reason or other these Black troops were sent to Berber and Suakim; but Zoebehr, their Leader, who they thought was going to accompany them, was prevented from going, and was left behind, and they were consequently allowed to labour under a conviction that a gross breach of faith had been committed against them. The result was, that when on their way to Suez as many as 200 out of 1,200 preferred to take a flying leap out of the train rather than proceed to the Soudan. After the disaster of Hicks Pasha Cabinet Councils took place; reasons were given at that time by the Egyptian Government against abandoning the Soudan; but, notwithstanding that, Her Majesty's Government absolutely forced upon Egypt the abandonment of the Soudan from Wadi Haifa to the Equator, giving up beleaguered garrisons, and giving up both the European and the Native civil population in them. But what of the European Governments whose subjects had been abandoned in the Soudan? Had the Government any information with respect
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  to their opinions? In taking this course the Government had incurred a stupendous responsibility, and he knew of no right which Her Majesty's Government had either to counsel or order the abandonment, or to take any part with Egyptian officials in abandoning territory which belonged to the Sultan of Turkey. At first, the result of the announcement of the evacuation of the Soudan had been most injurious and disastrous to Baker Pasha. He had been ignorant of what was going on, and was negotiating with the tribes for the purpose of opening a passage between Suakim and Berber; but the moment the announcement of the intentions of Her Majesty's Government was made, all those negotiations fell to the ground, because the tribes felt that the best thing they could do was to make peace with the Mahdi. This seemed to have paralyzed Baker Pasha's transactions, although nobody who knew him could help feeling that no man in this world was better fitted to lead a forlorn hope than he. But he had to fight with such bad material that he (Mr. Bourke) greatly feared there was truth in the rumour which had arrived that evening that his troops had been cut up, although he hoped and believed the General's own life had been spared. Now, with regard to General Gordon's appointment, respecting which it was hardly worth while to allude to the ludicrous incidents attached to it, although he could not mention his name without expressing what was the wish of everybody—that his efforts would be attended by success. He was one of the most remarkable men in the world, and those who knew him felt that he was one of the few and of the best types that ever lived of the single-minded hero. General Gordon might have been consulted all this time by the Government; but he was allowed to resign his commission and go to the Continent before he was recalled to go to the Soudan. There was a paragraph in the Speech which he felt difficult to reconcile with the facts. In it they were told—
  "I have offered to the Egyptian Government such counsels, as appeared to be required by a prudent regard to the amount of its resources, and to the social condition of the country. I have also dispatched Major-General Gordon to report on the best means of giving effect to the resolution of the Khedive to withdraw from the Interior of the Soudan, and have permitted him to act in the execution of the measure."

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  Have permitted him to withdraw! Anyone would suppose from that that the Khedive was very anxious to get the Soudan off his hands, and to have General Gordon's assistance, whereas the reverse was the case. The Khedive was most anxious not to withdraw from the whole of the Soudan.
  MR. GLADSTONE: It is not said in the Speech that he is.
  MR. BOURKE: The Khedive has never expressed any wish whatever to abandon any part of the Soudan.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Hear, hear!
  MR. BOURKEsaid, it was not his fault if that was not the case. He had his information from the public journals.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Hear, hear!
  MR. BOURKE: If the right hon. Gentleman taunted them now with not knowing the whole facts of the case, why did he not present the Papers? The Khedive, being pressed by Her Majesty's Government with regard to the abandonment of the Soudan, said he was willing, but not anxious, to accept the facts as they were with regard to Darfour and Kordofan. But there were many other Provinces which the Khedive never intended to abandon. The right hon. Baronet the President of the Local Government Board (Sir Charles W. Dilke) recently denied that the idea of sending out General Gordon to the Soudan was arrived at suddenly a few days ago, and said that they had considered the question many months ago. He (Mr. Bourke) hoped the Government would clear up this point, because it had been expressly stated in a letter in The Times shortly afterwards that this was not the case. In fact, a direct denial was given to the statement. The right hon. Baronet, of course, made that statement in good faith; but it was of great importance to those who wished to know the state of affairs in reference to the Soudan to arrive at the truth on that point. If it was right to send General Gordon now on a forlorn hope, it must have been more right to send him to Egypt many months ago, when he would not have had such enormous difficulties to encounter. Then arose the question of what the position of General Gordon really was. Had he gone to represent Her Majesty's Government and to open negotiations with the tribes for the abandonment of the Soudan; and, if so, who was in future to take the Government
  72
  of the Soudan under their control? Who was to superintend the suppression of the Slave Trade? General Gordon had been told to tell the tribes that slavery must cease. If the Government thought the public would accept this, they must suppose them to be very simple. He sincerely hoped success would attend General Gordon; but he could not share the enormous responsibility in sending this gallant gentleman, under these circumstances, without any protection. Then there was the change in the General's route. the reason given was that it was thought to be a masterly stroke of policy that the Sultan of Dalfour should be restored to his Kingdom; but, as it turned out, the gentleman they had sent out in the suite of General Gordon as the Sultan, in addition to many other disqualifications, happened to be the wrong man. [Laughter.] Of course, he was open to correction from the right hon. Gentleman; he only spoke from what appeared in the newspapers. He should like to know what was to become of the Natives in all parts of the Soudan? The Government were assuming new responsibilities in the Red Sea. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board had said that the status quo would be maintained on the littoral of the Red Sea. He supposed, therefore, Her Majesty's Government were to be responsible for what went on upon the Egyptian soil; but he should like to know exactly how that was, because they were told that in sending out General Gordon the Government insisted upon the Khedive giving up the Soudan, which came to this—that the whole of the Soudan might be in rebellion with impunity; but England was, at the same time, bound to protect the littoral of the Red Sea, and in that case their policy in the Soudan would become more indefensible than ever. Irrespective of that, according to all great authorities, the fact of giving up the Soudan would involve enormous additional expense upon Egypt. He thought he had shown to the House that the policy of Her Majesty's Government had been unsuccessful; by that policy the authority of the Egyptian Government had been weakened; that the withdrawal of Her Majesty's Forces had been indefinitely postponed; and that the responsibilities of Her Majesty's

  73
  Government had been dangerously increased—a result due to the want of a manly and straightforward recognition of the position which the country had assumed in Egypt; that policy had led the country into a false and anomalous position. The Government was hampered by their own imprudent declaration from the first, and there was only one thing now which they could do to escape from the difficulty into which they had brought themselves—confide to other hands the duty of effecting the settlement of Egypt and maintaining the honour of England, for they had gravely compromised her interests in that country. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his Amendment.
  MR. SPEAKERthen read the Amendment to the House; but no Member immediately rose.
  After a pause,
  BARON HENRY DE WORMSsaid, that if any condemnation were wanted of the policy of Her Majesty's Government, the evidence of their conscious guilt was to be found in their silence. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board had sat taking copious notes during the exhaustive speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Bourke), and the House expected from him some line of argument which should possibly defend the vacillating policy of Her Majesty's Government; but in this they were disappointed, and scathing criticisms remained unanswered. It appeared to him that the Government were awaiting the arguments of the Opposition, as they had none of their own, and he felt convinced that the outside world would not misunderstand that silence, but construe it in its true and proper light. He did not propose to go into all the historical matters connected with the long blundering failure of Her Majesty's Government's policy in Egypt, but there was one matter which he ventured to call the initial blunder. He referred to the remarkable document called the Joint Note, which should be more justly called the "bogus ultimatum," and which was issued by Her Majesty's Government, in conjunction with France, with the occult purpose of never being acted upon. To that note were traceable
  74
  many of the disasters marking the policy of Her Majesty's Government. The fact that it was not intended to be acted upon was kept carefully out of the Blue Books, but it leaked out in the French Yellow Book. The difficulty the Government had to consider was how far they could accommodate the views of the Radical tail with the ideas of the Radical head, because these two portions of the Party were constantly coming into conflict. It was known that the Radical section would not tolerate a policy of action, but would be perfectly satisfied with a policy of threats. In order to conciliate the Radical faction and France with a view to obtaining a Treaty of Commerce, Her Majesty's Government were consenting parties to the issue of the "bogus ultimatum." If that Note had been really acted upon, there was little doubt that Arabi's rising could never have attained the proportions which it did attain. He would have been sent out of the country, instead of being allowed to blossom from a rebel colonel into a Pasha. No sooner had the rebellion been quelled than the Radical section of the Liberal Party wished to know how soon we were to withdraw. He should like to ask Her Majesty's Government what was the purpose of the expedition? If its purpose was simply to quell rebellion, then no sooner was Arabi put down than the Mahdi arose. Surely the purpose of the Government was not to go to Egypt to subdue sporadic rebellion? The policy of the Government was to place Egypt on a proper footing; but were the interests of that country reviving? Were there not in Upper Egypt exactly the same abuses now, and perhaps more, than existed before the expedition was sent? Were not the fellaheen just as much oppressed as they were then? If the interest of Egypt was not the object of the Government, he should like to know what was; but they were silent on that point, as they were upon every other. What did they give to Egypt? Why, they gave advice. When the Prime Minister, merely repeating what the then Leader of the House (the Marquess of Hartington) had stated, that the English troops would be withdrawn in six months—[Mr. GLADSTONE: Never.] Well, within a few months. ["No!"] The Leader of the House made a statement at the

  75
  beginning of last Session to the effect that the English troops would be withdrawn within six months, and he thought the Prime Minister made a similar statement at the Mansion House.
  MR. GLADSTONE: I never said anything on the point of time. I think the hon. Member may have been misled by this—I may have referred to the question of time in regard to the contraction of the force.
  BARON HENRY DE WORMSsaid, the outside public understood there could be no question that Her Majesty's Government did intend to withdraw the troops, and he was confirmed in that opinion by the statement in the Speech from the Throne. Soon after the statement was made by the Prime Minister, the Mahdi, inspired with additional confidence, massacred the brave Army under Hicks Pasha. The Government had successively adopted five different policies for getting out of the difficulty. The first was to repudiate all responsibility for Hicks Pasha's expedition. The second was to suggest the despatch of Baker Pasha and his gendarmerie on a forlorn hope to relieve the Egyptian garrisons—an expedition which had just ended in disaster. The third was to invite Turkey to send a force against the Mahdi, which was scarcely consistent, seeing that the Prime Minister had prevented Turkey from joining in the expedition against Arabi. The fourth was that the frontier of Egypt should be placed at Wady Haifa. For his own part, he could not imagine a more monstrous, or a more foolish proposal, than this of bringing to the doors of Lower Egypt the hordes of barbarians who had devastated Upper Egypt. And the last proposal was that General Gordon should go to Khartoum, and by means of the golden key and his own personal reputation should persuade the tribes to remain within the frontier which did not belong to them. That was the suggestion of a civilized Government as the panacea for the evils of Egypt. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board said the Government had been in communication with General Gordon, who was some months ago willing to undertake the Mission to the Soudan. If so, it certainly took the Government long enough to decide upon sending him. They allowed him to enter the Service of the
  76
  King of the Belgians, and after he had made all his arrangements for that purpose, and left England to proceed to the Congo, called upon him to give up his service and go to the Soudan. Her Majesty's Government were, in fact, a Government of expediency—a Government of accidents and chances—a Cabinet of political Micawbers, always waiting for something to turn up. But what turned up was not always advantageous. The news received that evening was of a disheartening character, and it closely concerned brave General Gordon, who had gone out upon a forlorn hope. This Government of accidents hoped that the rebellion might be stopped, but if the Soudan were to be given over to the rule of the Mahdi he would rule there supreme; and he wished to ask if Her Majesty's Government had considered the effect of that? By the exertions of such men as Gordon, Baker, and others, the abominable Slave Trade had been put down in the Soudan; but now the friends of the slave-holding Boers were adopting a policy which would lead to the renewal of that worst of human crimes, which would again desolate and disgrace the whole of the Soudan territory. The policy of the Government had throughout been shilly-shallying and cowardly, and if they chose to impose upon the country a cowardly policy, in order to support the pieces of a tottering Cabinet, that was no reason why the Opposition should remain silent. With regard to the abandonment of the Soudan, had Her Majesty's Government considered the fact that there were about 280,000 Christians and 60,000 Jews in Egypt, and that of these there would be many settlers in the Soudan? They appeared, however, not to have had sufficient experience of what fanaticism would do in the matter of the massacres of Alexandria, when they waited until those massacres were over before they intervened, for they were adopting a similar course now. One more success of the Mahdi might imperil the lives of every one of the Christians now settled in Egypt, and what then would the civilized world say to England if, by the action of the Government—a Liberal Government—these men, women, and children were massacred? Would it be sufficient to say that the Birmingham Caucus was against intervention, or that the right hon. Gentleman the Member

  77
  for Birmingham thought it unadvisable to annex Egypt? That was really and truly the position of affairs in Egypt at the present moment. There was a weak and vacillating policy put forward by a Government composed of heterogeneous elements, a Government without cohesion, through the impossibility of uniting its Members in concerted action—a policy which had led to the disasters in Egypt as to disasters elsewhere. The defeat at Majuba Hill resulted in the Boer Convention; at Alexandria no action was taken until after the perpetration of the massacres; and in Ireland they did not understand the position of affairs until the murders at Phoenix Park called attention to them. And now they wanted to find a cheap and easy road out of a great difficulty, which it was impossible to do. The time was not far distant when the country, sick of a policy of vacillation and cowardice, would call them to account for their conduct, and they would then no longer retain the confidence of the electors.
  Amendment proposed,
  At the end of the twelfth paragraph, to insert the words but we humbly direct Her Majesty's attention to the want of success which has so far attended the attempts of Her Majesty's Ministers to place the affairs of Egypt on a sound footing, either as regards the reconstruction of its Government, the re-organisation of justice, the satisfactory adjustment of its finances, or the tranquillity and security of its frontier provinces; and we humbly submit to Her Majesty, that the course which Her Majesty's Ministers have pursued has tended to weaken the authority of the Native Government, without providing any adequate substitute, and that such a course is fraught with danger to Egypt, and tends indefinitely to postpone the establishment of a state of things in which the withdrawal of Her Majesty's Forces will be possible; while it dangerously increases the responsibilities and liabilities of this Country both towards Egypt itself and towards the Powers of Europe; and, further, we humbly express our opinion that no measures will be effective for attaining the objects of Her Majesty's Policy in Egypt, and providing for the improvement and security of that Country, unless they are founded on a distinct recognition by Her Majesty's Ministers of the obligations which they have incurred by their intervention in the administration of Egyptian affairs."—(Mr. Bourke.)
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The House divided:—Ayes 20; Noes 77: Majority 57.—(Div. List, No. 1.)
  Main Question again proposed.
  MR. MAC IVER, in rising to move as an Amendment—
  "That this House, while appreciating the importance of the questions which are presented for consideration in Her Majesty's Gracious Speech, is of opinion that the depressed condition of Commerce and Agriculture demands prior attention,"
  said, that when he gave Notice of his intention to move this Amendment it was not anticipated that the question which the House had just decided would be so speedily disposed of. He therefore found himself called upon to address the House rather unexpectedly. That, however, would not deter him from striking a chord which he believed would find an echo from one end of the country to the other. He apologized for the construction of the Amendment, which, on reconsideration, he found did not express his meaning with that courtesy and grace of language which was appropriate to such occasions as this. The Amendment put very bluntly a statement which was an attack upon Her Majesty's Advisers because of their neglect of commercial questions generally. He referred not only to our trading relations with foreign countries, but especially to our relations with our Colonial Dependencies. The words which they had put into the Speech of Her Majesty showed but little attention to those great questions which, beyond all others, affected the well-being of the people, not of this land only, but throughout this great Empire, on which the sun never set. What did the Speech show Her Majesty's Government thought of our commercial relations with foreign countries, or with our great Dependencies? What did they think of the prosperity of our trade with those Colonies which were loyal to us while we were not loyal to them? What did the present Government, if they could be called a Government, think of Canada, Australia, of the Cape, of India? In what way did they think of these places? Only with regard to petty squabbles and matters which, as compared with the condition of commerce and agriculture, were of no importance whatever with regard to the well-being of our country at home or abroad. But he would take some of the paragraphs in the Speech, and criticize them in detail. He would like to know whether Her Majesty was at this moment Suzerain of the Transvaal?

  79
  Was it not of immensely more importance to our fellow-subjects in lands beyond the seas to have considered by the House matters of trade and commerce? He would not say that the Government cared nothing about Madagascar, for the function of the Government was not needlessly to interfere there. They knew that the French Government, wishing to remain on good terms with Her Majesty's Government, were willing to pay a sum of money for what they did in Madagascar. Next to that came the announcement that a Commission was sitting in Paris on the question of the fisheries in Newfoundland. That was not a great question. Then there was the resumption of diplomatic relations with Mexico; and then the negotiations for a Treaty of Commerce with Turkey. Then Spain was mentioned; and upon this question of our commercial relations with Spain they came upon a matter of great importance to the people of this country. He gave Notice that afternoon that he would ask a Question on Monday of the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs—whether in the Agreement which was spoken of as having been signed Her Majesty's Government had taken steps to ensure that the Convention contained a stipulation that British and Spanish vessels should be allowed to trade in Spanish ports on equal terms?—and if that Question could be answered satisfactorily, it would immensely surprise him, and he would be the first to acknowledge the services Her Majesty's Government had rendered to the trade. When he pressed this Question home he believed it would be found that they had entirely neglected the interests of our shipping in the trade with Spain. If they had not, he would congratulate them on the boldness with which they had changed front with respect to their fiscal policy. He had unlimited confidence in the blundering capabilities of Her Majesty's Government; and he should be immensely surprised if the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs got up and said that the Government had done their best to induce Spain to place British ships on a par with Spanish ships. At the present moment it was practically impossible for ships under the British Flag to trade outwards to Spanish ports; and he wanted to know what the Government had done
  80
  to remedy this great injustice. There were no words too strong to use on this matter, for unless the Government had done this, they had neglected the consideration of one of the great interests of the Empire. In such matters the Government ought to pursue a course similar to that which would be pursued by any private man of business. They should bargain for something in return, and not give Spain what she wanted in regard to Wine Duties without obtaining what Great Britain wanted in exchange. He next came to the question of Egypt mentioned in the Speech. It was said there was tranquillity in that country. He happened to have travelled home from the Mediterranean in company with some gentlemen from Egypt—gentlemen who had had every opportunity of knowing practically what the condition of affairs was in Egypt; and he ventured to think that if those gentlemen had seats in that House they would not be found to be supporters of Her Majesty's Government. They told him that Egypt was worse under the British occupation than it was before, and that English people in Egypt had but one hope for the future, and. that was a change of Government at home. The charge he brought against Her Majesty's Government was that they had no policy with regard to Egypt, but a hand-to-mouth policy—a policy varying with the circumstances from day to day; in fact, a policy in harmony with their policy upon every question—the policy of retaining themselves on the Treasury Bench, of securing the emoluments to themselves and their friends. He believed that those who at the present time ruled the destinies of the country obtained their power by means which were no credit to themselves. Their speeches were not speeches of candour—they were not speeches of truth. [Cries of "Order!"] It seemed to him that those speeches had put the Government in great difficulty on almost every question with which they had had to deal. Whether it was on Egypt, or South Africa, or Ireland, the Government was confronted with the speeches made by its Members in the endeavour to obtain Office. He, for one, however, would forgive the Government much if, being in Office, they would return to those honourable traditions of the Liberal Party which

  81
  prevailed in old days like those of Lord Palmerston, who really wished for that which was best for the good of the country. But what kind of people were they who were at present in power; and what did their scheme of Reform mean? It meant that they might so manipulate the constituencies as to maintain themselves the longer in power. He believed no such manipulation could be successful. Conservatives had no reason to fear the extension of the franchise; they could trust to the common sense of the people of the country. That which most concerned the people of this country were not such matters as those referred to in the Speech from the Throne. For one person in the country interested in the matters referred to in the Speech there were nine persons who were more interested in questions affecting trade and commerce; and they did not find that the Government had devoted any real attention whatever to these questions. France was not mentioned in the Queen's Speech; and he wanted to know why the Government did not devote some attention to our commercial relations with France? "Why did they not take some steps in regard not only to France, but other countries, to procure open markets for the products of this country, as this country gave some open markets for the products of other lands? The reason was that the Members of the present Government pinned their reputation to a theory which had seen its day and had passed away. They talked about the marvellous increase of commerce in this country. They forgot the marvellous increase in other lands, and they forgot what coal and steam and electricity had done for us. They would not, however, be allowed much longer to forget their duty. The day was not distant when there would be a loud call from one end of the land to the other, from Liberals as well as Conservatives; and that cry would assert that the depressed condition of commerce and agriculture demanded the first attention of Her Majesty's Government. The hon. Member concluded by moving his Amendment.
  MR. WARTONsaid, that he was delighted to have an opportunity of seconding an Amendment of such great importance. [Laughter.] He could quite understand that laugh from hon. Gentlemen opposite, since it showed that,
  82
  like the Government themselves, they could not appreciate the relative importance of things. The Government had introduced a number of trivial subjects into the Speech from the Throne, but not a single word was to be found about the condition of trade and agriculture. There was not a single industry in the country which was not languishing. All classes were discontented with their policy. They came into power with lavish promises of bringing about a general state of prosperity. The Home Secretary, in particular, was profuse in his assurances that the advent to power of the Liberal Party would bring good times to the country. But now they cared not for these things. What attention did the Gallios of the Treasury Bench pay to the Commission of Agriculture? They tried to divert the attention of the people by the promise of Reform. They offered the franchise to men who wanted bread. In these circumstances he was glad to see an Amendment of this kind moved, especially after the sharp practice of which the Government had been guilty. They had seen that evening the late Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs (Sir Charles W. Dilke) committing himself to a trick worthy of an attorney of the shadier sort. During the delivery of the speech—the masterly and unanswerable speech—of the right hon. Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Bourke) the President of the Local Government Board made a great show of taking elaborate notes, thereby leading the House to believe he was going to answer the speech; but the Division had been taken, and the Minister in question had not uttered a word. He was surprised that the Government were not ashamed to snatch a Division on a debate on their policy in Egypt at a time when it might be that Baker Pasha's Army had been destroyed. That Division would not redound to the credit of the Government, and some even of their own supporters would be ashamed of what the Government had done. The general impression would be that his right hon. Friend's speech had not been answered because it was unanswerable. It was of the utmost importance that the subject mentioned in his hon. Friend's (Mr. Mac Iver's) Amendment should be fully considered, and he hoped that someone, perhaps his hon. Friend the Member for Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin), would

  83
  deal with the question. Such a proceeding as had taken place would certainly not tend to promote the good feeling which ought to subsist between the two sides of the House.
  MR. SPEAKERasked where the hon. Member for Birkenhead proposed to put his Amendment in the Address?
  MR. MAC IVER: After paragraph 13.
  Amendment proposed,
  At the end of the thirteenth paragraph, to insert the words, "That this House, while appreciating the importance of the subjects to which attention is invited in Her Majesty's Gracious Speech from the Throne, is of opinion that the depressed condition of Commerce and Agriculture demands 'prior attention."—(Mr. Mac Iver.)
  Question, "That those words be there inserted," put, and negatived.
  Main Question again proposed.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, the House had been placed in a very awkward position. An Amendment had been brought forward by a responsible Member of the Opposition, the late Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs, with all the pomp and ceremony of a Party Amendment; and it was commended to the House by a powerful speech. They had all seen the Government take note of that speech, as they could not avoid doing. The President of the Local Government Board and the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs took elaborate notes; and it was perfectly clear, according to all the precedents of the House, that they were initiating a great debate on the Egyptian policy of the Government. Through an accident, which he need not explain to the House, that debate had fallen through. He thought it quite impossible that they could go on with the debate on the Address generally after what had taken place. Every Member of the House believed that there was to be a great debate and a great Party Division on the policy of the Government, and that that Division would not take place sooner than Thursday. Under these circumstances, considering that all their arrangements had been displaced—he did not mean the arrangements of the Conservative Party merely—for he would remind hon. Gentlemen that the people who chiefly suffered from the collapse of the debate were not the Conservative Party, but the Government,
  84
  who had left two admirable speeches absolutely without a word of reply. It was impossible to allow the debate to continue. He therefore begged to move that the debate be adjourned.
  MR. E. STANHOPEsaid, he rose to second the Motion. He was one of those who, unfortunately, was not present when the debate collapsed in a manner which he ventured to characterize as an absolutely unparalleled attempt to evade Parliamentary criticism. [Cries of "No!"] An hon. Member said "No!" He was quite right. It was paralleled in the history of the present Administration. They had always evaded their challenges. When they endeavoured to give them a challenge—when they proposed in the most formal manner to challenge them, they attempted to snatch a Division at a time when no one was present. [Cries of "No, no!"] What was the state of things that night? Two speakers had risen, one of them his right hon. Friend (Mr. Bourke), who spoke with peculiar authority on the question under discussion, and who made a speech which, whatever might be the opinion of Members, was certainly, for its grasp of the question, to be admired by everyone in the House. When he sat down they were led to believe the President of the Local Government Board (Sir Charles W. Dilke), who was sitting opposite, was going to reply. They had communications through the ordinary channels of this House, and they were led to believe that that would be the course of the debate; and everybody on this side thought, when his right hon. Friend sat down, that the right hon. Baronet would rise and offer some remarks on the part of the Government. He did not rise, and the hon. Member for Greenwich (Baron H. De Worms) was put up, and made a speech worthy of his high reputation in that House, and again the Government thought fit to sit still, and in the face of the country to make no answer to the charges brought against them. He thought the country would judge of that policy. They would know perfectly well that what the Government desired was this—they wanted to evade a direct challenge. ["Order!"]
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member, in making these observations, is going beyond his right in seconding a Motion for the Adjournment. The hon. Member

  85
  is aware that he must confine himself to that Motion.
  MR. E. STANHOPEsaid, he bowed entirely to the Speaker's ruling. He would only say further that the conduct of the Government in this matter called for the gravest consideration on the part of the Opposition and on the part of the country, and he did trust and believe that an opportunity would be taken before long to force the Government to accept the challenge which they had thrown down in vain to-day.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. A. J. Balfour.)
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, the hon. Member for Mid Lincoln (Mr. E. Stanhope) had an excellent example set him, I must say, by the speech of my hon. Friend who moved this Motion, and who moved it in a manner perfectly clear and intelligible, and entirely free from any irritating matter. The hon. Gentleman contrived to import that matter into the debate, which happily led to his being called to Order by you, and it is on account of his being called to Order by you that I entirely refrain from noticing the unjust and injurious statements which he had contrived to lay before the House before your intervention descended upon him. But, Sir, with regard to my hon. Friend, while I agree very much with the spirit of his Motion, I cannot agree with the Motion itself; and I almost think he will be inclined to agree with me, for reasons which I shall give. It is that by acceding to the Motion we should sacrifice some amount of time and the possibility of discussing some of the subjects that are still open, while at the same time we should gain nothing, because whatever disabilities we he under now through the Forms of the House and the incident that has taken place, we should be exactly in the same position and under the same disabilities when the House met again. That, I think, if I understand the matter rightly, is a conclusive reason against the adjournment of the debate, and the course I should recommend would be that so far as any other subjects which any hon. Gentleman wishes to discuss he should avail himself of his right to introduce those subjects, and that we should thus make use of our time. With respect to the other matter of his
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  arguments, I may, perhaps, be allowed by the House to offer a suggestion. It will not, I think, be right for me to discuss the causes of the catastrophe which unhappily arose with regard to the debate upon Egypt. What I would wish to do is, and I shall make it the object of anything I say as nearly as I can, as we cannot recall that particular vote, we should endeavour to get the House back into the position in which it stood before that Division took place. I should suggest, and I think I should be correct in saying that upon the Report of the Address—[Cries of"Oh, oh!"] I hope the hon. Gentleman who sneers at me will be so kind as to point out some better mode of procedure. He may adjourn the debate to-day, he may adjourn the debate to-morrow or half a dozen times, but he will remain under exactly the same disability. I do not wish to exempt the rest of the debate on the Address from being discussed. I recommend that we should go on with the discussion, and that all Gentlemen who have points to raise should raise them. With regard to this particular question, which can no longer be raised upon the Address—if I am wrong upon that, Sir, I think you will correct me—as we cannot any longer debate it upon the Address, then it is best we should debate it upon the Report, when it can be debated with precisely the same freedom, and every Motion can be made that any hon. Gentleman thinks it desirable to make now. That, Sir, is the best suggestion, it appears to me, that the state of the case admits. I purposely avoid all retrospect and justification. The time for that may come, but the present time would not be suitable or regular for such a purpose.
  MR. A. J. BALFOUR, on a point of Order, asked the Speaker whether it would be in Order, on the Report of the Address, to re-introduce an Amendment similar in substance to that which had been introduced to the Address itself and negatived?
  MR. SPEAKER: On the Report it would be open to move an Amendment; but I am not prepared to say that the precise terms moved and negatived on this occasion can be brought forward on the Report. The whole question of the policy of the Government may be debated to any length the House should think proper.
  MR. A. J. BALFOURasked whether the Speaker would consent to put from the Chair a Motion censuring the Government in substance for not fulfilling the obligations they had entered into with regard to Egypt?
  MR. SPEAKER: Most certainly.
  MR. JOSEPH COWENsaid, the Prime Minister's suggestion to continue the discussion would have been well enough if the Members who had given Notice of Amendments to the Address had been present in their places to go forward with the discussion. But they were not present, and to force on the debate in their absence would be to do them a very great injustice. It was a loss to waste the evening; but it was a loss that the House was not responsible for, and which private Members ought not to suffer from. He thought some explanation should be given by the Government how the collapse that they had all witnessed had come about. He was quite willing to believe that it was accidental; but it was one of those accidents that were extremely inconvenient, and the seldomer they occurred the better. The Prime Minister had given no explanation, and he thought his right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board should state how it happened that he did not reply to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bourke). It was in accordance with the courtesy and custom of Parliament that a Minister in charge of the Office that the right hon. Member for King's Lynn formerly held should reply to him, and it was a mark of disrespect to him that his speech should have gone, not only unanswered, but unnoticed. Of course, the Opposition knew their own business best, and he had neither the right nor the wish to suggest any course they might choose to pursue. But it struck him that if the general Egyptian policy of the Government was to be discussed fully and fairly, it ought to be done on a distinct Vote of Censure, and not upon the Report of the Address. If it was taken then, it would be after long debates on other subjects, and at a very inconvenient time.
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: If I may be allowed to trespass on the patience of the House, I would say that, so far as I am concerned, I was quite willing to have spoken, and, indeed, was anxious to speak. When the right hon. Gentleman the Member for King's Lynn
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  (Mr. Bourke) sat down at 8 o'clock, we had reason to suppose that an indefinite number of Members on both sides of the House were about to take part in the debate. I was not present in the House when the debate actually collapsed. My noble Friend the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice) was in his place; but he had been directed not to take part in the debate to-night. He had been distinctly told that the debate was to last three nights, and he very naturally had been told to wait before replying, because there was every reason to suppose that in the course of a three nights' debate statements would be made which would require the knowledge of someone connected with the Foreign Department to answer in detail. It would have been most improper to have put up the Representative of the Foreign Department in this House at the beginning of a three nights' debate. If I myself had been present, I certainly would have risen to prevent what occurred this evening; but I had reason to believe that the debate would be continued by independent Members.
  LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, the President of the Local Government Board had devoted his remarks to a defence of the conduct of the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, as to which nobody had said a word; but he had given no valid explanation of how it was that the debate was allowed to collapse. The right hon. Gentleman told them that he was burning with anxiety to speak, and that as it was suggested to him that independent Members on both sides were anxious to continue the debate, therefore he maintained silence. He (Lord John Manners) should like to know what authority the right hon. Gentleman had to say that independent Members, as he called them, on the Opposition side of the House were anxious to speak before him? As to the independent Members on the other side, if the right hon. Gentleman had been informed of the names of those who desired to speak, it was unintelligible that he should not have succeeded in inducing one of them to rise and continue the debate. There was one thing to him still more unintelligible—namely, that when the right hon. Gentleman saw and heard that not one of those

  89
  independent supporters of Her Majesty's Government was prepared so to continue the debate, he did not rise, when the Speaker was putting the Question, to continue it himself. Having listened to the explanation of the right hon. Gentleman, he confessed that during the many years he had sat in the House he had never listened to so lame and impotent an explanation—an explanation which explained nothing that required explanation, and which threw an unnecessary ægis over the not prostrate form of the noble Lord the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs. A debate on the Report was not a satisfactory mode of discussing a great question of Imperial policy; and he did not think that the all-important question of the present condition of Egypt could be properly dealt with in that way. The Opposition were entirely irresponsible for the unexpected collapse of the debate; it rested exclusively upon the shoulders of Her Majesty's Government; and, as they had brought the House into that disagreeable fix, they should find some more dignified and more convenient method of treating so grave a matter than that of taking it on the Report.
  MR. ONSLOWsaid, that as he had the misfortune to fall under the censure of the Prime Minister, who never liked anyone to smile when he was addressing the House, he thought he had a right to say that he considered the House was entitled to some more satisfactory explanation than had been offered; that notwithstanding the elaborate notes made by the President of the Local Government Board, and the promptings of the Prime Minister, the right hon. Gentleman should have preferred that the interests of Egypt should suffer rather than that his dinner should suffer. It might be days or a week before they arrived at any knowledge of what the policy of the Government was with regard to Egypt; and therefore it was that he smiled when he heard the Prime Minister suggest that they should relegate the debate to the Report. The course pursued that evening was totally unparalleled during the 11 years he had had the honour of a seat in that House. There were several Members on the Opposition side of the House who were anxious to speak, and the Government
  90
  ought to afford them a proper opportunity.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: Unquestionably the House is placed in a position of embarrassment. I do not wish to raise any angry discussion; but I am bound to say that, as my noble Friend the Member for North Leicestershire (Lord John Manners) has just said, the conduct pursued by the Government does appear to be most extraordinary and such as we had no right to reckon upon. My right hon. Friend the Member for King's Lynn (Mr. Bourke), after the most solemn challenge that could be given, and after an Amendment of which Notice was made public some little time before the House met, brought forward in a speech of considerable length, but with no waste of words, an elaborate indictment against the policy of Her Majesty's Government in Egypt. We were distinctly informed by the usual methods, and our observation confirmed us in the belief, that the President of the Local Government Board (Sir Charles W. Dilke) intended to answer that speech. It would have been impossible for him to have answered it without speaking at considerable length, because of the extent of the subject; and, therefore, everybody had a right to expect that some time would be spent in the discussion that would naturally have been raised. When my right hon. Friend sat down the right hon. Gentleman opposite did not rise, as everybody supposed he would do. What happened? My hon. Friend the Member for Greenwich (Baron de Worms), who, I believe, had contemplated answering the right hon. Gentleman in any observations that he might have made, then rose, after the Speaker put the Question, in order to prevent the collapse of the debate, and made a speech. Again the same thing happened, and no Member of the Government and no supporter of the Government took up the challenge. Under these circumstances, it was inevitable that there should be a collapse of the debate. Now, we are asked what is the course which we are to pursue. My hon. Friend the Member for Hertford (Mr. A. J. Balfour), in the most natural manner in the world, proposes that the debate should be adjourned; and I think the House will see that, unless we take that course, very great injustice will be done to other Members of the House who have publicly

  91
  given Notice of Amendments on the Address, which they are not here now to move, but which they have every right to be able to move. For instance, there is my hon. Friend the Member for Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin), who has given Notice of an Amendment of great importance. Supposing that we do not adjourn, and that we resume the discussion of the Address, what will be his position? There may be various questions raised, there may be all sorts of discussions, and, therefore, it does not follow that we may be allowed to proceed with the Report of the Address tomorrow. It seems to me that the course proposed by my hon. Friend the Member for Hertford is the natural and legitimate course, and the one fairest to those absent on the collapse of the debate. They had reason to suppose that they would have an opportunity of bringing forward their Amendments, and I would strongly recommend the House to adjourn the debate. We feel that in some way or other it will be necessary that we should insist on obtaining the real verdict of the House on the question that was raised earlier in the evening. Of course, there may be various ways of raising that issue; but I cannot believe that the Government will evade it when fairly challenged. We have already had a very extraordinary scene, and one which, I think, will be the cause of some perplexity to people out-of-doors. But do not let us make matters worse by huddling up discussions of importance, such as that to which I have alluded, and others also, and by preventing Members having what they had every right to expect—namely, a fair opportunity of bringing forward their Motions.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid, that the right hon. Gentleman had spoken on that subject, as he always did, with great moderation. Nobody, with one exception, supposed that it was an intentional or deliberate plan on the part of the Government. No one had been more taken by surprise than he himself had been when he heard the bell ring and a Division called. He was not in the House itself, but in the precincts at the time. It had been perfectly understood on both sides that the President of the Local Government Board would reply to the speech of the right hon. Member for King's Lynn;
  92
  but when a reply was made to a speech, it was not always made immediately on the conclusion of that speech, but usually in the course of the evening. ["Oh, oh!"] That was in the mind of his right hon. Friend and of the Treasury Bench generally. Everybody knew that incidents to which the frailty of human nature was subject made some hours more convenient for Members to be present than other hours; and as that was a very important subject, it was thought better that his right hon. Friend should speak to a full House. It was no secret that it had been intimated to both sides of the House that he intended to speak towards half-past 9; that was a very usual arrangement. By accident the debate collapsed between 8 and half-past 9, and it was to be regretted. But now, what was the situation of the House with reference to the Address? It appeared, as he was informed, that as the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for King's. Lynn was specifically introduced after the 12th paragraph of the Queen's Speech, dealing with Egypt, the question of Egypt could not, as a matter of form, be renewed in this debate. He understood from the authorities that that was technically the rule in such a case. Nobody on that (the Liberal) side desired that the House should be in any way deprived or defrauded of the opportunity of challenging the Egyptian policy of the Government. The Government desired that there should be that opportunity as much as the Opposition, and the only question was the best way in which to give the Opposition the opportunity of doing that which they desired. His right hon. Friend at the head of the Government had suggested it should be done on the Report of the Address, and that was received with some tokens of dissatisfaction on the other side. [Opposition cries of "Hear, hear!"] Yes; but that was by Gentlemen not very well conversant with Parliamentary proceedings. ["Order!"] That was an observation he was going to justify. The same thing happened in a matter which they regarded as of equal importance when they themselves (the Government) were in Opposition in 1878; and hon. Gentlemen opposite would remember that a Motion of great importance, in a debate of several days, was moved upon the Report of the Address by his hon.

  93
  Friend the Member for Bedford. He found in Hansard, on the 9th of December, 1878, "Address Reported. Amendment (Mr. Whitbread)." That, he thought, was a precedent which showed that his right hon. Friend was not making a futile proposition when he said, now that an accident had deprived the House of the opportunity, let them do the best they could and take the Egyptian debate upon the Report. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said—"What are we to do with the debate upon the Address itself?" There were other topics besides the Egyptian topic which hon. Gentlemen desired to raise, and the Government were quite prepared to deal with them, reserving for the Report stage the question of Egypt. This would afford every reasonable opportunity for discussion. The Government regretted what had occurred, because they were willing to do all they could to give the fairest opportunity to everybody in the House to bring forward any questions in which they were peculiarly interested. He need hardly remind the House that what the Government had to do was to regulate matters as well as they could, and give the fairest opportunity without unnecessary waste of time for the despatch of Business. If hon. Gentlemen opposite said they were taken by surprise, and, as the right hon. Gentleman opposite had said, do not let these questions be muddied in a hurry, then, of course, if that was the view which the Opposition took, the Government were not opposed to the adjournment then.
  SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSsaid, the two questions before the House seemed to be how to remedy the unfortunate state of affairs brought about by the collapse of the debate on Egypt, and how to take care that hon. Gentlemen who did not expect their Motions to come before the House so early should not be shuffled out of the position they held. He understood the Prime Minister to state that he was quite willing that they (the Opposition) should bring-forward an Amendment directly challenging the policy of Her Majesty's Government on the question of Egypt when the Report stage was reached. That was no concession on the part of the Government, because it was an absolute matter of right for the Opposition to raise that question on the Report in
  94
  somewhat the same form as they had done in the Amendment. With regard to hon. Members who had other Motions to propose, he understood that if it was objected that the debate could not proceed by reason of their absence the adjournment would be agreed to. He thought that the best solution of the question, and he hoped that such a thing as had just happened would never occur again.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Debate adjourned till To-morrow.
  House adjourned at half after Ten o'clock.

Preamble
MINUTES.]—PUBLIC BILL—First Reading—Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act, 1878, Amendment ٭ (5).
THE PARLIAMENT, which had been Prorogued successively from the 25th August, 1883, to the 12th November; thence to the 19th December; thence to the 5th February, 1884, met this day for the despatch of Business, according to Proclamation, as follows:—

BY THE QUEEN—A PROCLAMATION.
"Victoria R.
"Whereas Our Parliament stands prorogued to Wednesday the Nineteenth Day of December, One thousand eight hundred and eighty-three: We, by and with the advice of Our Privy Council, hereby issue Our Royal Proclamation, and publish and declare that the said Parliament be further prorogued to Tuesday the Fifth Day
2
of February, One thousand eight hundred and eighty-four. And We do hereby further, with the advice aforesaid, declare Our Royal Will and Pleasure that the said Parliament shall, on the said Tuesday the Fifth Day of February, One thousand eight hundred and eighty four, assemble and be holden for the Despatch of divers urgent and important Affairs. And the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, and the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses, and the Commissioners for Shires and Burghs, of the House of Commons, are hereby required and commanded to give their Attendance accordingly, at Westminster, on the said Tuesday the Fifth Day of February, One thousand eight hundred and eighty-four.
"Given at Our Court at Windsor, this Twelfth Day of December, in the Year of our Lord One thousand eight hundred and eighty-three, and in the Forty-seventh Year of Our Reign.
"God save the Queen."
The Session was opened by Commission.
THE HOUSE being met;
THE LORD CHANCELLORacquainted the House,
"That it not being convenient for Her Majesty to be personally here present this clay, She has been pleased to cause a Commission under the Great Seal to be prepared, in order to the holding of this Parliament."
Then Five of the LORDS COMMISSIONERS—namely, The LORD HIGH CHANCELLOR; The LORD STEWARD OF THE HOUSEHOLD (The Earl Sydney); The LORD CHAMBERLAIN (The Earl of Kenmare); The LORD MONSON (Captain of the Yeomen of the Guard); and The LORD CAREINGTON—being in their Robes, and seated on a Form placed between the Throne and the Woolsack, commanded the Gentleman Usher of the Black Rod to let the COMMONS know "The Lords Commissioners desire their immediate Attendance in this House, to hear the Commission read."
Who being at the Bar, with their Speaker:—The Commission was read by the Clerk:—Then

THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR delivered HER MAJESTY'S SPEECH to both Houses of Parliament, as follows:—
"My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"I HAVE called you together for the Fifth Session of this Parliament, that you may again address yourselves to the discharge of your arduous and ever-growing duties.
"I continue to hold friendly and harmonious relations with all foreign Powers.
"My communications with the President of the French Republic, arising out of special incidents in Madagascar, have closed, as I had anticipated, in a manner such as tends to confirm the cordial understanding between the two countries.
"I have likewise, in conjunction with the President, appointed a Commission, which is now sitting in Paris, to discuss a basis of arrangement, which I had proposed, for the future
4
regulation of the Newfoundland fisheries and the avoidance of disputes.
"An Agreement has been arrived at with Portugal respecting the River Congo and the adjacent territories. This Agreement will be presented to you forthwith.
"Arrangements are in progress for the resumption of diplomatic relations with Mexico, and Special Envoys have been dispatched by each Government to promote that end.
"Negotiations for a Treaty of Commerce with Turkey have commenced; an Agreement on commercial arrangements with Spain has been signed, which awaits the sanction of the Cortes; a revision of the Commercial Treaty with Japan, on a basis generally agreed to by the Treaty Powers, is nearly completed; and a Treaty of Commerce and Friendship has likewise been signed with Corea.
"Having had every reason to be satisfied with the tranquillity of Egypt, and with the progress made in the establishment of orderly institutions, I gave, during the autumn, instructions for the evacuation of Cairo, for the further reduction of my military forces, and for their concentration mainly in Alexandria.
"But in the month of November the Egyptian Army, appointed to maintain the rule of the Khedive in the Soudan, was defeated and broken up with heavy loss.
"Upon the occurrence of this defeat, I deemed it wise to recall the order I had given, as a precaution against the possible effects of the military reverse in Egypt itself, and to preclude all doubt as to the certain maintenance of its tranquillity.
"While an unforeseen and calamitous necessity has thus required me to suspend the measure I had adopted, the aim of my occupation, which has been explained to you at former times, continues without change.
"I have offered to the Egyptian Government such counsels, as appeared to he required by a prudent regard to the amount of its resources, and to the social condition of the country. I have also dispatched Major-General Gordon to report on the best means of giving effect to the resolution of the Khedive to withdraw from the Interior of the Soudan, and have permitted him to act in the execution of the measure.
"Papers relating to this and to several of the foregoing subjects will be presented to you.
"I have directed communications to be held with the Delegates, whom the Government of the Transvaal has sent to this country for the purpose of urging a reconsideration of the Convention of Pretoria.
"In this interchange of views, attention has been principally turned to the question, always one of difficulty in South Africa, how best to make provision for the maintenance of order, and the prevention of oppression, on the frontier.
"Nothing has occurred to discourage the expectation that those communications may be brought to a favourable issue.
"Papers will be presented to you On the subject in due course; and likewise with respect to the condition of Zululand, which continues to be unsettled; as well as to the resumption of direct Imperial authority in Basutoland, which is in immediate contemplation.
"Gentlemen of the House of Commons,
"The Estimates of charge for the public services during the year 1884–85 have been prepared, and will speedily be laid before you.
"I anticipate that the Revenue of the current year will not fall short of the expectations upon which you founded your financial arrangements.
"My Lords, and Gentlemen,
"The condition of Ireland continues to exhibit those features of substantial improvement, which I described on the two occasions when I last addressed you.
"A measure will at once be presented to you which will have for its principal object the enlargement of the Occupation Franchise in Parliamentary Elections throughout the United Kingdom. The experience, gained during half-a-century by the progressive admission of augmented numbers to a share in our representative system, happily warrants the belief that again, as heretofore, the result of a judicious extension of the franchise will be a still closer attachment of the nation to the Throne, the law, and the institutions of the country.
"I anticipate a like effect from the extension and the reform of Local Government.
"This comprehensive subject embraces all that relates locally to the greater efficiency of administration, to the alleviation of burdens by improved arrangements, and to the enlargement of the powers of ratepayers through the representative system, including among them the regulation of the traffic in intoxicating liquors.
"A plan will be laid before you for the extension of Municipal Government to the whole Metropolis.
"The preparation under this head, however, which has been made by my directions, has not been limited to London; but the actual presentation of further Bills of the same class must depend upon the progress you may be enabled to make with the weighty business which has been already set forth.
"Other public wants have not been neglected; and you will be invited to consider Bills relating to the Security of Life and Property at Sea, to the Railway Commission and its powers, and to the repression of Corrupt Practices at Municipal Elections.
"Measures will likewise be laid before you for the better administration of Scottish business; for the promotion of Education, and for the closing of Public Houses on Sunday, in Ireland; and also for the improvement of Intermediate Education in Wales.
"I humbly commend your efforts in the matters I have named to you, and in all other particulars, to the blessing of Almighty God."
Then the Commons withdrew.
House adjourned during pleasure.
House resumed.
PRAYERS.
ROLL OF THE LORDS—Garter King of Arms attending, delivered at the Table (in the usual manner) a List of the Lords Temporal in the Fifth Session of the Twenty-second Parliament of the United Kingdom: The same was ordered to lie on the Table.

REPRESENTATIVE PEER FOR IRELAND.
Writ and Returns electing the Lord Headley a Representative Peer for Ireland
8
in the room of the late Earl of Mount Cashell, deceased, with the Certificate of the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland annexed thereto: Delivered (on oath), and Certificate read.

SAT FIRST.
The Lord Vernon, after the death of his father.
SELECT VESTRIES.
Bill, pro formâ, read a.
THE QUEEN'S SPEECH.

  ADDRESS IN ANSWER TO HER MAJESTY'S MOST GRACIOUS SPEECH.
  The QUEEN'S SPEECH reported by The LORD CHANCELLOR.
  THE MARQUESS OF TWEEDDALE: My Lords, I rise to move a humble Address to Her Majesty in answer to Her Majesty's Gracious Speech, which we have this day listened to from the Throne, and in doing so I would claim a large share of that indulgence which your Lordships never fail to extend to those who undertake the arduous duty I am about to discharge.
  My Lords, Her Majesty's Gracious Speech commences with the ever-welcome announcement that Her relations with Foreign Powers are on a footing of cordiality' and friendship, and it supplies several instances to show that these words are not mere formal expressions. In the first place, Her Majesty is able to announce that the difficulties which arose out of occurrences in Madagascar, referred to in Her Majesty's Speech at the close of last Session, have been satisfactorily adjusted, and further evidence of the sincerity of the Government of France to maintain cordial relations with this country may be cited from the appointment of a Convention, sitting at this moment at Paris, for the purpose of considering and disposing of a subject which has been the source of considerable irritation between the two countries for many years past. I refer to the fisheries dispute on the banks of Newfoundland.
  My Lords, Her Majesty's Speech further informs us that an agreement has been entered into with Portugal to remove another source of difficulty and trouble in respect to the relative rights possessed by Portugal and ourselves on

  9
  the West Coast of Africa, in the neighbourhood of the Congo River. My Lords, a Treaty embodying the provisions which have been agreed to will, as I understand, be laid on the Table of the House; and if, as I believe, it contains provisions limiting the territories of Portugal towards the interior, provides for the protection of missionary settlements of the Native tribes, for the freedom of commerce towards the interior of Africa, and, moreover, affords precautions with a view to keeping in check the Slave Trade which prevails in that part of Africa, I think it is a Treaty which will receive your Lordships' unanimous approval.
  My Lords, Her Majesty's Speech furnishes ample evidence that Her Majesty's Government have not lost sight of the interests of commerce. No less than four Treaties of Commerce are referred to which have been concluded, or are in course of arrangement. The whole of these will undoubtedly lead to a great development of the commerce of this country; while one Treaty, that dealing with Corea, will open up an entirely new field of mercantile enterprize. In the same direction, Her Majesty's Government is enabled to announce that there is a reasonable probability that, at an early period, diplomatic relations with Mexico will be resumed. My Lords, Mexico is, as you are aware, a country of immense natural resources; and we may expect, from a renewal of diplomatic relations, that a considerable impetus will be given to the trade which already exists with that country.
  My Lords, the position of affairs in Egypt is one which naturally occupies a very large space in Her Majesty's Speech; and I think that your Lordships will be glad to observe that Her Majesty's Government are able to announce a very marked improvement in the administration of affairs in that country. Indeed, so much impressed were Her Majesty's Government with the improved state of things, that towards the end of autumn of last year orders were given for the withdrawal to Alexandria of the troops which had been stationed at Cairo. My Lords, this very desirable movement was suspended, as your Lordships well know, in consequence of the disaster which befel the Army of Hicks Pasha sent to the Soudan, contrary to the advice of Her Majesty's
  10
  Government. Now, my Lords, this event is acknowledged to be a very deplorable one, in respect to the loss of life which resulted from it; but, from another point of view, may prove in the long run of great benefit to Egypt Proper. The Provinces of the Soudan have always been a source of great embarrassment and of immense cost to Egypt. Nor was there observable any compensatory advantage to the country itself in the administration which was provided for it by Egypt. On the contrary, the Government in the administration of the Soudan was probably as bad as any Government known in the world. In these circumstances, my Lords, the question as to the future relations which should exist between Egypt and the revolted Provinces of the Soudan was forced for decision upon the Khedive and his Government. And, my Lords, I think everyone in this House will agree that the course adopted by the Khedive, in accordance with the advice tendered by Her Majesty's Government, was the most proper one in all the circumstances of the case. It must be obvious to your Lordships that it would have been impossible, in view of the weakness of the financial and military condition of Egypt, for Egypt to undertake the reconquest of those Provinces. My Lords, having come to the decision to withdraw their troops from the Soudan, the Khedive, in concert with Her Majesty's Government, made the very best selection in their power of an Agent to carry out their views. General Gordon is, as is well known, a man of extraordinary ability and energy, of great honesty of purpose and probity of character—is well known personally, and his good qualities as much appreciated by the people of the Soudan as by ourselves. We may hope, therefore, when the nature of his Mission is understood—namely, that he comes practically to effect the withdrawal of the troops from the Soudan, and to inform the Natives that they will be no longer under the domination of the Government which they hate—I hope that when he delivers the message to the people of the Provinces of the Soudan—I think, my Lords, that his Mission cannot fail to be attended with success. I do not mean to suggest for a moment that it will not be attended with personal peril and risk. But, my Lords, General Gordon is not a

  11
  man to draw back from danger, especially when he hopes to attain a great good by encountering that danger. My Lords, there is one criticism to which this policy might be open—namely, that the abandonment of the Soudan might lead to a revival of the Slave Trade. But, my Lords, inasmuch as the ports of the Red Sea will continue in possession of the Khedive, at least as vigilant a watch will be kept upon the export trade—if I may use the expression—as has been kept at any previous time. My Lords, Egypt freed from the encumbrance of her Provinces in the Soudan—Provinces which are undoubtedly a serious cost to the country—and with its Executive strengthened and invigorated by the appointment of European officers of the highest standing and ability, will, in my humble judgment, make still further progress in the direction of good government, and thus realize the main object of Her Majesty's Government in interfering in the country.
  My Lords, passing from foreign affairs to Colonial matters, it will be a source of great satisfaction to your Lordships to know that peace and contentment prevail throughout the Colonial Empire, with the single exception of one or two places in South Africa. My Lords, in Canada we know that the Government is busy in carrying out a gigantic scheme of railway communication, which will connect the Atlantic with the Pacific Ocean, and undoubtedly lead to a development of the resources of that country. In Australia our fellow-subjects are occupied with the important object of bringing about a confederation of their different Governments. My Lords, this movement will, I am sure, receive your Lordships' hearty support, tending, as it will, to strengthen Australia, and enable it to carry out those measures of self-defence which are essential to its future security and prosperity. My Lords, it is in South Africa alone that any troubles are to be found amongst Her Majesty's Colonies. Happily there the difficulties which have occupied the attention of the Colonial Office for so long a time past are about to be removed—at any rate, as far as Basutoland and the Transvaal are concerned. Basutoland is now in a contented condition in consequence of the immediate transfer which is to take place of the control from the Cape to the Imperial Government. With regard
  12
  to the Transvaal, the negotiations now pending, and which are on the point of being brought to a conclusion, it is hoped will result in an arrangement entirely satisfactory to that country as well as to ourselves. Ample care will, no doubt, be taken that the tribes bordering on the Transvaal shall be completely protected, and the trade route from the Cape to Central Africa rendered entirely secure. Zululand remains, no doubt, in a state of great uncertainty. It is difficult to see in what respect Her Majesty's Government can help matters in that distracted country. One thing, however, I trust, will be the case—namely, that Her Majesty's Government will persistently abstain from extending any protectorate to that country, or interfering in any way with the internal concerns of the different Provinces beyond our frontiers, except for the purpose of guarding those frontiers and protecting the lives and property of our subjects.
  Passing from Colonial to Home affairs, your Lordships will be glad to note that the fruit of the remedial legislation of the last few years is beginning to make itself manifest in the improved condition of Ireland. Rents are being paid with comparative regularity, outrages are, undoubtedly, considerably diminished, and although political passions still run high, and there is much yet to be desired in respect to the feeling of the people of Ireland towards this country, yet there is sufficient of improvement to encourage Her Majesty's Government in adhering to the policy which has been pursued—a policy of remedying grievances where grievances are clearly shown to exist, and of maintaining law and order without respect of Parties, or creeds, or persons.
  Your Lordships will learn with satisfaction that Her Majesty's Government have determined to introduce a Bill to extend the franchise to the inhabitants of the rural districts of the United Kingdom, so as to place them on a similar footing with the inhabitants of boroughs. Her Majesty's Government has no doubt been actuated by a feeling—which, I am sure, is generally shared—that it is no longer desirable, or even, indeed, possible, to deny to one portion of Her Majesty's subjects the right enjoyed by another portion separated only by the barriers of a purely arbitrary

  13
  character, involving no new principle or Constitutional change. It may be predicted that this measure will meet with no serious opposition, and that the close of the Session will witness an addition to the Statute Book settling the question of the electoral suffrage.
  My Lords, a measure only second in importance to the one to which I have just referred is that which proposes to deal with the Municipal Government of London. Every day furnishes fresh proof of the necessity and expediency of such a measure. Indeed, that necessity has already been recognized in two successive Speeches from the Throne. Of the details of the measure by which it is proposed to achieve so desirable an object, I am necessarily ignorant; but I trust it may take the shape of an extension of the present municipality to the whole of modern London. In this manner the continuity of the present system will be maintained, and a strong, well-organized Government established, worthy of the extent, vast wealth, and ancient traditions of the Metropolis of this country.
  My Lords, as a Scotchman, I cannot but rejoice that Her Majesty's Government contemplate a measure which, it is hoped, may meet the wishes of Scotland, and provide a mode by which its legislative and administrative wants may be attended to in a manner more effectual than is at present the case. Any doubt which may have existed in the minds of your Lordships as to the genuineness of Scottish opinion on this subject must have been removed by the meeting held in Edinburgh a few weeks ago, which was unexampled in its representative character, and in the enthusiasm which was there exemplified.
  My Lords, I do not propose to refer to any other of the numerous topics which are contained in Her Majesty's Speech. I have trespassed long enough on your Lordships' time. I have touched very inadequately on some of the more important subjects, and I have only, therefore, to thank you for the patient hearing that you have been good enough to give me, and to move that a humble Address be presented to Her Majesty.
  MOST GRACIOUS SOVEREIGN,
  "We, Your Majesty's most dutiful and loyal subjects, the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our
  14
  humble thanks to Tour Majesty for the gracious Speech which Your Majesty has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
  "We humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that Your Majesty continues to hold friendly and harmonious relations with all foreign Powers.
  "We thank Your Majesty for informing us that Your Majesty's communications with the President of the French Republic, arising out of special incidents in Madagascar, have closed in a manner such as tends to confirm the cordial understanding between the two countries; and that Your Majesty has likewise, in conjunction with the President, appointed a Commission to discuss a basis of arrangement for the future regulation of the Newfoundland fisheries and the avoidance of disputes.
  "We humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that an agreement has been arrived at with Portugal respecting the River Congo and the adjacent territories; and that arrangements are in progress for the resumption of diplomatic relations with Mexico.
  "We thank Your Majesty for informing us that negotiations for a Treaty of Commerce with Turkey have commenced; that an Agreement on commercial relations with Spain has been signed, which awaits the sanction of the Cortes; that a revision of the Commercial Treaty with Japan, on a basis generally agreed to by the Treaty Powers, is nearly completed; and that a Treaty of Commerce and Friendship has likewise been signed with Corea.
  "We humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that, having had every reason to be satisfied with the tranquillity of Egypt, and with the progress made in the establishment of orderly institutions, Your Majesty gave, during the autumn, instructions for the evacuation of Cairo, for the further reduction of Your Majesty's military forces, and for their concentration mainly in Alexandria.
  "We learn with regret that in the month of November the Egyptian army, appointed to maintain the rule of the Khedive in the Soudan, was defeated and broken up with heavy loss.
  "We thank Your Majesty for informing us that upon the occurrence of this defeat, Your Majesty deemed it wise to recall the order Your Majesty had given, as a precaution against the possible effects of the military reverse in Egypt itself, and to preclude all doubt as to the certain maintenance of tranquillity; but that, while an unforeseen and calamitous necessity has thus required Your Majesty to suspend the measure Your Majesty had adopted, the aim of

  15
  the occupation, which has been explained to us at former times, continues without change.
  "We humbly thank Your Majesty for informing us that Your Majesty has offered to the Egyptian Government such counsels as appeared to be required by a prudent regard to the amount of its resources and to the social condition of the country; and that Your Majesty has also despatched Major-General Gordon to report on the best means of giving effect to the resolution of the Khedive to withdraw from the Interior of the Soudan, and has permitted him to act in the execution of the measure.
  "We thank your Majesty for informing us that Your Majesty has directed communications to be held with the Delegates whom the Government of the Transvaal has sent to this country for the purpose of urging a reconsideration of the Convention of Pretoria; and that nothing has occurred to discourage the expectation that these communications may be brought to a favourable issue.
  "We learn with satisfaction that the condition of Ireland continues to exhibit those features of substantial improvement which Your Majesty described on the two occasions when Your Majesty last addressed us.
  "We humbly thank Your Majesty for in. forming us that a measure will at once be presented to us which will have for its principal object the enlargement of the Occupation Franchise in Parliamentary Elections throughout the United Kingdom.
  "We thank Your Majesty for informing us that a plan will be laid before us for the extension of Municipal Government to the whole Metropolis; that the preparation under this head, which has been made by Your Majesty's directions, has not been limited to London; but that the actual presentation of further Bills of the same class must depend upon the progress we may be enabled to make with the weighty business which has been already set forth.
  "We humbly assure Your Majesty that our careful consideration shall be given to the measures which may be submitted to us, and we earnestly trust that the blessing of Almighty God may attend our labours."
  LORD VERNONsaid, he should not have presumed to undertake the task of seconding the Address to Her Most Gracious Majesty had it not been for his desire to give his humble support to those who had piloted the State during the last four years through the shoals and quicksands of political affairs, and for the assurance that any
  16
  attempt, however unsuccessful, to do one's duty would be received by their Lordships with forbearance and leniency. That Her Majesty's relations with Foreign Powers were amicable was a matter of congratulation to all; and the hopes expressed by his noble Friend as to the speedy solution of the difficulties in Egypt without further armed interference on their part would meet with cordial approval from all those in favour of peace and economy—the watchwords of the Liberal Party. At least, they would be unanimous in their belief that in despatching General Gordon on the important Mission with which he had been entrusted, the Government was consulting the truest interests both of that country and also those of the civilized world. Whatever might be their Lordships' opinion as to the wisdom of the advice tendered by Her Majesty's Government to the Khedive, he deserved our most sincere sympathy in the great and unexpected difficulties which he had been called upon to combat. The amity and good feeling which characterized their negotiations with the French nation, with reference to the imprisonment of a British subject at Madagascar, formed a striking contrast to former difficulties in cases of the same description; while attaching due importance to the suave and irresistible influence of their noble Leader in that House, might they not also attribute a great part of the change to the improved commercial relations of the two countries? Treaties of Commerce were surer bonds of union between nations than diplomatic triumphs; and he was sanguine that as year by year they extended their Commercial Treaties with Foreign Powers, they would not only add directly to the wealth of this country, but also do their utmost to obviate any chance of those misunderstandings which had so often involved them in long and sanguinary wars. In connection with the subject of free inter-communication and its effects upon the welfare and happiness of mankind, it was the desire of the Government to remove all impediments to the ready circulation of goods at home, by assigning additional powers to the Railway Commissioners, enabling them to deal judicially with the grievances, real or alleged, of the mercantile and agricultural community. They had hopes also of being able to call attention

  17
  to a still higher question—"the preservation of life at sea." As a body, shipowners deserved the greatest praise for the solicitude they evinced in attending to the welfare of those in their employ, but there were notorious exceptions to that high character; and legislation was needed to meet the designs of the few who preferred to sacrifice human life to their own pecuniary advantage. When considering affairs near home they must all rejoice over the visible improvement in the condition of Ireland, owing to the just and firm government of the present Viceroy, rendered possible by the remedial measures which had passed their Lordships' House, the tension under which she had been labouring was already somewhat relaxed, the moral tone of society was decidedly improved, the obstructions and interruptions of trade had disappeared, and there was a more general appreciation of the efforts that had been made for the removal of just grievances and for the amelioration of her affairs. Among the proposals for the coming Session was the introduction of a Bill for the assimilation of the county and borough franchise, which would remove the anomalies in the present elective powers of the constituencies. The enlightened masses, accustomed to liberty, freedom of action, and an interest in public affairs, claimed a right to assist in carrying out those measures which they considered advantageous to the common good—they did not wish to pull any other class down, but to raise themselves up to the position they felt qualified to fill. He trusted they would endeavour to make the basis of representation as wide as their Lordships might deem consistent with the welfare of the State, and directly enlist as large a portion as possible of the intelligence, virtue, and property of the nation in the maintenance of its institutions. With regard to the reform of the Corporation of London, no intelligent citizen would wish to uproot suddenly the administrations which had so long and so honourably controlled the interests of municipal affairs; but they were originally designed for the government of a comparatively small City, and were quite inadequate to the wants of the present vast population. Having no desire on his first appearance in that House to trespass on valuable time, and be classed
  18
  as a recruit in the ranks of Obstruction, he would make way for abler and more experienced speakers, and, by having briefly seconded the Motion of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Tweeddale), would hope to gain their Lordships' approval.—[See page 13.]
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, in addressing myself to the consideration of the Address which has been laid before your Lordships, the wish of every Peer will be, if he possibly can do so consistently with the convictions he holds, to concur in approaching the Throne with a unanimous voice, and it is easier for us to do so in this House, both because the traditions of our House are adverse to Amendments on the Address—I do not think one has been moved by the Opposition since the fall of the Government of Lord Melbourne—and, also, because we are not, as in some other places they may be, under stress with respect to the employment of our time, but are able to challenge in any manner in which we may think necessary the conduct of the Government without having to ask, with little hope of obtaining, the leisure and the space requisite for such a purpose. I do not, therefore, propose, and I have not heard that anyone else does, to move an Amendment on the present Address; but, in making that statement, I cannot subscribe to the optimist views of public affairs which ran through both the able speeches to which we have listened. This is a longer Speech from the Throne than we have customarily received. I will not say it is a clearer Speech, but certainly it is marked by this peculiarity—that as public affairs become darker and more difficult, its tone becomes more optimist and more complacent. Much of its complacency would at any other moment be absurd, and might be passed by with a laugh; but in the face of the sinister news which within the last hour or two has reached this Metropolis, it is hardly in such a spirit that we can approach the consideration of the difficult questions which are before us. My Lords, the Speech appears to have been composed with a kind of forecast of the arduous character of the cause which its author had to maintain. It approaches the great burning question of the day with timid and hesitating steps. It is composed much in the manner in which a certain class of letters are composed,

  19
  reserving for a late period in the composition the cause for which the composition has been made. Foreign affairs, of course, are introduced first, but it is not the most important part of foreign affairs which comes first. The Speech goes round and round about them, dealing with this matter and with that matter like a man who has a disagreeable message to communicate, and who wishes to lengthen out the time as much as he can before he comes to the crisis of it. First, we have Madagascar, in respect to which I observe that the congratulations of the Government are entirely confined to their dealings with regard to Mr. Shaw. We have no allusion to the great wrong and suffering which many other British subjects in Madagascar suffered, and for which, so far as I know, no compensation has been suggested. Then we have the Newfoundland Fisheries; then we have the Congo; then we have Mexico; then we have the Commercial Treaty with Spain, of which we know the prospects are so brilliant; rising to a climax we reach the Treaty of Commerce with Japan; and, finally, we come to the pinnacle of all, the Treaty of Commerce and Friendship with the Corea. This curious list sufficiently shows the uneasiness with which the author of the Speech approached the principal theme of his composition, and I am not surprised at it. It must have cost the Cabinet many arduous days to compose sentences so unintelligible as those which relate to Egypt. But the general burden of their language is plain enough. It is to say that somebody else and not the British Government is to blame for the disasters which have occurred and the terrible confusion of which we are the witnesses. The Government has been unfortunate with respect to Egypt. Matters have always gone wrong, and it has always been the fault of somebody else. France at first was the guilty partner. At first the discontent and then the mutiny of the Army were suffered to rise to such a point that the remedy for the evil could not be obtained without the desolation which was wrought in Alexandria and the utter destruction of the Khedive's Army and the fatal weakening of his authority in Egypt. For that delay, whenever we challenged the conduct of the Government, we were always told in no disguised terms that
  20
  their necessary partnership with France was to blame. Whatever truth or validity there may have been in that excuse, it is strange that we meet with an excuse of an exactly similar kind at a later period of this disastrous history. We have again the same phenomena, and again a danger neglected at first, and allowed to go on from week to week and from month to month. We have had again vacillation and delay in the application of the necessary remedies; and now, when the matter seems to be approaching almost to a point of desperation, we are told it is not the English Government, but the Egyptian Government, which is to blame. It is the Egyptian Government which has led and forced this poor, meek, submissive, English Government to suffer all these things which have taken place. My Lords, I cannot help thinking that the picture of the relations between the English Government and the Egyptian Government will not be accepted in the world generally as an accurate representation of our position towards each other. As the Speech stands, England appears simply in the position of a counsellor, a mere spectator standing aside and giving disinterested advice. The Speech says—
  "I have offered to the Egyptian Government such counsels, as appeared to be required by a prudent regard to the amount of its resources, and to the social condition of the country."
  The advice appears to have been that the Khedive should consent to the dismemberment and cutting off of, I believe, the largest part of the country over which he rules; and the English Government, standing by in the character of an adviser in this matter, has condescended to go a little further than tendering advice. It will give the Egyptians a little assistance. It is a matter of "scuttling out," and the English Government, under present auspices, may be said to be an expert in scuttling out. Therefore they have magnanimously and generously come forward to help the Government of the Khedive to scuttle out of the Soudan. For that purpose they have selected, with a strange disregard of the fitness of things, the most gallant soldier they can find. They appear to know no other way of retreating from the Soudan than by sending a man whoso life has not been spent in retreating, but in advancing and in striking

  21
  hard blows against the enemy. The Speech says—
  "I have also dispatched Major-General Gordon to report on the best means of giving effect to the resolution of the Khedive to withdraw from the Interior of the Soudan, and have permitted him to act in the execution of the measure."
  It really did not require that we should have sent General Gordon to the Soudan in order that we might withdraw from it; that could have been done by a far meaner hand, or, if I may use the phrase, by a far meaner pair of legs. I venture to say that it was not for the purpose of running away that General Gordon accepted the Mission he has undertaken, and that Her Majesty's Government have "permitted him to act in the execution of the measure;" as though it was the one thing he had desired, and that it was his suggestion and wish that we should give up the Soudan, and that he had been employed by the Khedive's Government independently for that purpose.
  EARL GRANVILLE: I cannot hear the noble Marquess distinctly.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: I am sorry to say that it is very difficult to make anybody hear in this House. The observations which I was making were with reference to the selection of General Gordon for the purpose of scuttling out of the Soudan. My impression is—and I speak with great submission to the knowledge of the noble Earl—that if for such a purpose the employment of an Englishman was necessary at all, there are many other Englishmen who might have been found who would have been just as good for that purpose as General Gordon, and that it was not necessary in order to effect that object to endanger a most valuable life, and to a certain extent to endanger a most untarnished reputation in performing an act which will certainly reflect no credit upon the Government by which it is undertaken. But the truth is, that everybody who reads that paragraph will recognize that it is no accurate representation either of the position of England to Egypt or the purposes for which General Gordon has been sent to the Soudan. England will not be permitted, in the opinion of the world, thus lightly to shift off on others the responsibility for the policy which she has permitted and encouraged Egypt
  22
  to adopt. It is useless for her to say that Egypt has done it. Egypt is in the hollow of her hand. England is all-powerful there. At her bidding armies are sent or armies are withdrawn; at her bidding Ministers are dismissed and now Ministers are appointed; at her bidding great territories are retained or resigned; at her bidding the English Army occupies the capital of Egypt and forces the revenues of Egypt to pay for its cost, and that Army is sent not to defend Egypt, but to force the Viceroy to dismember his territories. It is idle, with such facts before us, to treat the matter as though the responsibility lay upon Egypt; as though the puppet is to be blamed for the actions which were directed by a guiding hand. England has full power in Egypt, and to full, absolute, and complete power there must always attach full, absolute, and complete responsibility. And for all that has happened—for the disasters that, under the auspices of Her Majesty's Government, have visited Egypt, they may depend upon it that the opinion of the world and of the English people will hold Her Majesty's Government responsible. My Lords, there is a statement here which, I confess, seems to me so strange that I must solicit some explanation of it from the noble Earl. If it means anything, it means that Her Majesty's Government has recommended the Egyptian Government to give up the territories of the Soudan; and that, I understand, was the belief of the noble Lord who moved the Address. But the Government of Egypt has not the power to give up territories. The Khedive, at any rate, is not an independent Sovereign—he is a Prince under a Suzerain. He holds his position by virtue of a Firman issued by his Suzerain only five years ago, and it contains language in the most distinct manner forbidding the very act which Her Majesty's Government has advised the Khedive to carry out. It says—
  "The Khedive shall not, under any pretext or motive, abandon to others, in whole or in part, the privileges given to Egypt and now confided to him, and which are an emanation of the Prerogatives which are inherent to the Sovereign Power, nor any part of the territory."
  Now, I can suppose, for the sake of argument, that Her Majesty's Government might feel it to be a wise policy to

  23
  separate the Soudan from Egypt; but, undoubtedly, it cannot be done by the simple advice of Her Majesty's Government or by the resolution of the Khedive; it can only be done by leave of the Sultan, to whom the Soudan, like the rest of Egypt, is subject, and by the consent of the Powers who have guaranteed the whole of the territory belonging to the Ottoman Empire. In the same way—I do not see it here, but it has been stated in the public papers—something else has occurred which seems to indicate complete forgetfulness on the part of Her Majesty's Government of the conditions under which the Khedive holds his power. I see that a loan of £1,000,000 has been advanced by the house of Rothschild to the Khedive. Now, in this same instrument—this Firman—which placed the Khedive upon the Throne, there is this provision—
  "The Khedive shall have the complete and entire disposition of the financial affairs of the country; but he shall not have the right of contracting loans, except for the purpose exclusively of settling the present financial situation, and in entire agreement with his present creditors or their representatives."
  If it be true that the Khedive has borrowed this sum of money from the house of Rothschild, and having done so, as undoubtedly he must have done, under the advice of Her Majesty's Government, he has borrowed it without being able to give the slightest security fin-its repayment, and the loan is, legally speaking, invalid. But, knowing what we do of the financial ability of the house which has advanced the money, I do not myself believe that they have advanced it on insufficient security; and I am, therefore, driven to the conclusion that the security for the loan has come from somewhere else—that is to say, that Her Majesty's Government has, I will not say by direct guarantee, but by the indirect guarantee which the announcement of a policy can give, practically secured Messrs. Rothschild the repayment of the loan. If that is the case, no time whatever should be lost in apprizing Parliament of au act which is undoubtedly exceptional, if not illegal, in its character. I hope, therefore, I shall hear from the noble Earl some explanation to indicate exactly how far the British Government is mixed up in this curious transaction of the loan. I do not think that our
  24
  international difficulties end here. Remember that other countries besides ourselves have an interest in the Soudan. They have stood by and have seen us act as we please in Egypt without interfering with us, because they have had the conviction that our action was the host for the interests in which all nations are concerned—the interests of civilization and humanity, and the encouragement of industry and commerce. But if the result is to be nothing but the desolation of ports and the abandonment of vast territories to the barbarism and cruelties from which they have been with so much difficulty rescued—if that is the main result of the stewardship of Her Majesty's Government, I am afraid that other nations may say that it did not require a State so powerful as England to do these things. Any State, however modest the resources of which it could dispose, might have done as well as this. Why, Greece, or even Monaco, could have made as good a job as we have done of the matter. I think the noble Earl has already heard, through the expressions of opinion which have appeared in semi official organs abroad, something of the dissatisfaction which this momentous resolution on the part of Her Majesty's Government is likely to inspire in the minds of other Powers. This Speech would give me, oven in the present state of affairs, more consolation if it gave me any ground for believing that the era of ambiguities and vacillations and divided counsels was approaching its close; but, on the contrary, the Speech is instinct with the spirit which has brought upon us all our recent difficulties and dangers. Throughout it there is no outspoken statement of the policy that we are to pursue; no definition of the position in which we stand towards Egypt. There is the same attempt to veil, in language that may be pleasing to the Radical constituencies, the entirely changed state of affairs, and the vast responsibilities which Her Majesty's Government have undertaken. Even here the order for our troops to remain in Cairo and not to continue the evacuation is not stated as an expression of general policy; it is stated simply as a precaution, resulting upon the defeat of Hicks Pasha, against the possible effects of the military reverse in Egypt itself, so that when the possible effects of the defeat of Hicks Pasha have

  25
  passed away, I presume, from the language used, the process of evacuation, now suspended, is to be resumed, unless, indeed, the melancholy news that we have heard this evening shall have the effect of renewing the term of the suspension of the evacuation. It is impossible that any policy can be constructed between England and Europe if the relations between England and Egypt are allowed to remain in their present equivocal position. It is impossible for the Government to claim to satisfy their previous pledges and the prejudices of their supporters by a speedy evacuation, and to inspire the confidence which is necessary not only to maintain the military integrity of the country, but to the revival of the industry and commerce which have been so grievously injured. As long as the present ambiguity and doubtfulness of language is maintained that confidence cannot revive, and by continuing their present undecided attitude, their present language with two meanings, their present attitude with two faces, they are not deluding the Powers of Europe into the belief that England is likely soon to let loose her grasp on Egypt; but they are preventing the Egyptian people from believing in the security of our tenure in that country, and from believing that we are capable of protecting those who turn to us, and from tendering to us that allegiance which if they confided in our intentions would readily be ours. I hope the defects of the Speech will be made good in the reply of the noble Earl, and that he will tell us plainly and clearly what the policy of the Government in Egypt is to be. With respect to other parts of the Speech, they were not much dwelt upon in the language of the noble Lord who moved the Address, and I do not think it will be necessary for me to enter upon them at any length. We are told that the condition of Ireland continues to exhibit those features of substantial improvement which were described on two previous occasions, and I suppose the improvement is as great as it was on those two occasions. We are very familiar with assurances of that kind, and we feel confidence that in proportion as the organization for separating England and Ireland acquires force, in proportion as the antagonism between classes and sections and nationalities in Ireland appears to become more malignant, in that
  26
  proportion will be the energy of Her Majesty's Government in assuring us that all is well, and that the remedial measures are beginning to do their work. I suppose it was for the purpose of emphasizing the rosy colour of their dreams that they have added a paragraph with respect to the enlargement of the occupation franchise throughout the United Kingdom. Is it conceivable that any men intending to apply this measure to Ireland, knowing what the history of Ireland during the past half-century has been, should have told us that—
  "The progressive admission of augmented numbers to a share in our representative system, happily warrants the belief that again, as heretofore, the result of a judicious extension of the franchise will be a still closer attachment of the nation to the Throne, the law, and the institutions of the country."
  My Lords, that sentence gives a key to the whole Speech. We are moving in fairyland. There is no connection between the actual facts of the case and the brilliant visions which the intoxication of complacency has produced in the brains of Her Majesty's Government. I observe that the occupation franchise is to be enlarged without any reference to the question of redistribution. I heard the question once argued in a conclusive way by the noble Earl (the Earl of Derby) who is the latest recruit to the ranks of Her Majesty's Government; and I must conclude from the phrase of the Speech which I have quoted that that conviction has gone the way of many others, and that like another long catalogue of convictions it was swept and sponged out in one moment by Lord Beaconsfield's decision to call out the Reserves. No doubt the noble Earl will expose to us the workings of his mind and the way in which he has attained to the position of being able to assent to the present policy of the Government. With respect to the other matters referred to in the Speech I need not say much. The announcements are rather ambiguous—the language is very curious. There appears to be a certain gradation in the names given to the proposals of Her Majesty's Government. The Franchise Bill is to be a "measure;" the Metropolis Bill is only a "plan;" but the County Government Bill does not even advance to the dignity of being a "plan "—it is only a

  27
  "preparation." I do not know what precise difference in the intensity of their belief that the measures, or any of them, will pass is expressed in that curious gradation of language. Perhaps we shall know what it means when we have the measure, the plan, and the preparation before us; but there is one statement in the Speech to which I must give a most earnest negative—it is that other public wants have not been neglected. My Lords, one of the most pressing domestic wants has been entirely neglected by Her Majesty's Government. There is no subject upon which all the agricultural classes of this country, without distinction of rank or of Party, have pressed forward with more unanimity and earnestness than the exclusion from this country of the disease which ravages their flocks; which makes all their industry useless and all their investments unprofitable. They have urged this with a clearness of argument and a steadiness of purpose which it was impossible to mistake, and they have been supported in this by the formally-pronounced opinion of the House of Commons; and yet Her Majesty's Government cannot now give, in a Speech which deals with intermediate education in Wales and the closing of public-houses on Sundays in Ireland, the slightest comfort to what I will say is the greatest interest in the country under the cruel wrong from which it is suffering. In these circumstances my noble Friend (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon), who is so high an authority on agricultural matters, will this evening present a Bill to your Lordships to do that which the Government has neglected to do, and I earnestly hope that when the Government see it they will be content to accept from us, if their other political engagements will not allow them to originate it themselves, this measure which is absolutely necessary to enable the agricultural industry to arise from the depression into which it has been cast, and to justify the farmers in believing that the Government will watch over their interests in the future. My Lords, I will only conclude by saying that as measures of importance are indicated in the Speech I hope the Government will show their earnestness in proposing legislation by making some effort to bring these measures to the House of Lords in decent time. I hope they will
  28
  take to heart the failure which some of their proposals underwent last year in consequence of their neglecting the precautions necessary for this purpose. Still more do I hope that they will not repeat those curious arrangements by which the most important measures of last year were not only allowed, but it was distinctly arranged that they should not reach the House of Lords until long past the period when legislation usually progresses in this House. My Lords, the best hope I can give for the success of this Session for legislative purposes—a Session which undoubtedly, in many respects, promises to be one of anxious controversy, of difficult discussion—will he in the submission to this House at a time that can justify and insure a full consideration of all measures to which the Government desire that the assent of Parliament should be given.
  EARL GRANVILLE: My Lords, I am quite sure that your Lordships will accept the apologies of the noble Marquess for not moving an Amendment to the Address on this occasion. Not only we, but both sides of the House, entirely share the feeling he has mentioned—namely, that when there is no positive necessity for it, it is a more graceful act that we should unanimously address the Crown at the beginning of the Session. But I think it must also strike some of your Lordships that there is an advantage in not moving that Amendment on a subject on which the country at this moment, and certainly, from what the noble Marquess has said, on which your Lordships are very imperfectly informed. It occurs to me that with the object of having an unanimous Address we could not have had two speeches more befitting the occasion than those of the noble Marquess and the noble Lord behind me, who moved and seconded the Address. Nothing could have been better than the language and the tone of their speeches with regard to the subject I have just made allusion to. Having paid a compliment to this side of the House, I should be sorry not to pay a compliment to the noble Marquess opposite, with regard to the speech which he has so exclusively addressed to his own supporters on the other side of the House. My Lords, we all know that practice makes perfect, and the noble Marquess has in the last few months had a great deal of practice in

  29
  attacking Her Majesty's Government. I, for one, quite admit the ability, vigour, eloquence, and power of sarcasm with which he has addressed himself to the subject. If I were able to hint a slight defect in the artistic character of his work, I think it would be that it displays some slight ignorance of the laws of chiaroscuro—a slight want of light. The whole thing is too dark and too black. I think it must be plain to the commonest understanding that, in accordance with the mere doctrine of chances, it is really impossible that 14 men named by the Sovereign to be Her Ministers, and supported for four Sessions by Parliament, should in variably and on every subject connected with home, foreign, Indian, and Colonial policy be always in the wrong, and should never deviate into sense. An hon. and learned Friend of mine the other day amused himself, and amused his audience very much, by repeating 15 of the strongest epithets in the English language, which had been lately used by the noble Marquess and his political friends against the Government of this country. But the list was not perfect. It omitted the statement that Mr. Gladstone is an arch traitor, and it omitted also a very curious medical view of the question involved in the very grave accusation against one of the healthiest Colleagues I ever had of being dyspeptic. We are now accused of being intoxicated——
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: When I spoke of intoxication I referred to the intoxication of complacency, and not to physical intoxication.
  EARL GRANVILLE: Well, then, on another occasion, the noble Marquess made a delicate allusion to what he assumed to be the fact that the Members of Her Majesty's Government are all of them sophists, quacks, and makers of clap-trap. This, I may say, was, in my view of it, a little overdone; and I thank the noble Marquess for having to-day, as a compliment to the good taste of this House, compared to that of provincial assemblies, confined himself to only a few of the more mild epithets which he has of late applied to Her Majesty's Government. The noble Marquess talked about this being the longest Queen's Speech he could remember; but, at the same time, he expressed his regret that the subject of the foot-and-mouth disease had not
  30
  been mentioned in it. I am extremely glad to hear that the noble Duke (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon), who is so well acquainted with the subject, is going to introduce a Bill; and one thing, I think, I can promise, and that is, that when the Bill comes before your Lordships' House it will receive the fullest consideration on the part of Her Majesty's Government.
  My Lords, the noble Marquess, before he sees the Papers, talks about the unsatisfactory arrangements which we have made with regard to certain special incidents connected with Madagascar, and he says that we have failed in obtaining reparation for other damages done. I think before this accusation is made it would be as well for the noble Marquess to ascertain whether the particular damages of which he complains, are such as, by the rights of International Law, we have a right to demand satisfaction for. We have had several complaints of this sort, but we do not know the facts as yet. When the facts come before us we shall most carefully consider them; and I am perfectly certain if there is cause for asking reparation we shall be met by the French Government in the same manner as they met us in the unfortunate incident under Admiral Pierre, though the gallant Admiral was, at the time, suffering from a disease which soon proved to be fatal the noble Marquess has concentrated all the powers of his mind in attacking the Government about Egypt. The noble Marquess has in almost every speech of his in the country made this the standing offence against the Government. The noble Marquess is cunning at fence. Those who have had the honour of crossing swords with him know it well; but I cannot help thinking that he belongs to that class of swordsmen who are somewhat neglectful of self-defence, and who do not mind how any particular thrust has been met and parried very often, but, trusting to strength and wind, will go on lunging at their adversary as before. The noble Marquess has repeated the arguments he used against us two years' ago—arguments which we have constantly met, and which always appear inconsistent with themselves. He has certainly used some arguments which are inconsistent with those which the noble Marquess addressed to us two years ago. But one thing he has not

  31
  done—he has not defended himself from certain charges which have been made against him. There is a speech which has been made some little time ago by a Member of Parliament—not a Member of Her Majesty's Government—a man whom nobody accuses of being strongly influenced by Party spirit—a man who, almost bettor than anyone in this country, knows the facts with regard to the Egyptian side of the Eastern Question—I mean Mr. Goschen. Mr. Goschen closely argued, and logically proved—examining one diplomatic step after another taken by the noble Marquess till he arrived at the conclusion—that the noble Marquess, of all persons in this Kingdom, was most responsible for the difficulties which occurred in Egypt. The noble Marquess has not thought necessary for his own character to give the slightest answer to a speech which certainly has some weight with those who think on the subject. My Lords, the noble Marquess has spoken of our conduct in Egypt as being weak and vacillating. I do not understand how our conduct can be said to be vacillating. It is just as vacillating as that of a man who, carrying an umbrella, opens it when it rains, folds it up when it ceases to rain, and puts it over his head again when the drops fall anew. The noble Marquess speaks of the inconsistency of our policy. Let us see how that is. I will go back before the end of last year, and I will take the instructions sent to Lord Dufferin, dated November 3, 1882. In those instructions we say—
  "Her Majesty's Government, while desirous that the British occupation should last for as short a time as possible, feel bound not to withdraw from the task thus imposed on them until the administration of affairs has been re-constructed on a basis which will afford satisfactory guarantees for the maintenance of peace, order, and prosperity in Egypt, for the stability of the Khedive's authority, for the judicious development of self-government, and for the fulfilment of obligations towards Foreign Powers. These objects are in the real interest of Egypt, of this country, and of Europe."
  Again, here is an extract from a most important document, a Circular addressed to the Powers, on January 3, 1883, and explaining to Europe the policy of Her Majesty's Government—
  "The course of events has thrown upon Her Majesty's Government the task, which they
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  would willingly have shared with other Powers, of suppressing the military rebellion in Egypt, and restoring peace and order in that country. The object has been happily accomplished; and although for the present a British force remains in Egypt for the preservation of public tranquillity, Her Majesty's Government are desirous of withdrawing as soon as the state of the country and the organization of proper means for the maintenance of the Khedive's authority will admit of it. In the meanwhile the position in which Her Majesty's Government are placed towards His Highness imposes upon them the duty of giving advice with the object of securing that the order of things to be established shall be of a satisfactory character and possess the elements of stability and progress."
  My Lords, the Queen's Speech in 1883 in somewhat different words, but in words exactly to the same effect, announces the same policy to this country and the world. Here is an extract—
  "The aim of the temporary occupation of the country by my military forces, the considerations which must supply the measure of its duration, and the constant direction of my efforts to the maintenance of established rights, to the tranquillity of the East, and to the welfare of the Egyptian people, have been more than once explained to you, and they remain unchanged."
  In the debate on the Address upon that Speech from the Throne, the noble Marquess asked me in a very pointed manner to specify the date of the withdrawal of our troops, the object of a Question which I never could explain to myself. I answered—
  "We shall not keep our troops there any longer than is necessary; but it would be an act of treachery to ourselves, to Egypt, and to Europe, if we withdrew them without having a certainty, or, if not a certainty—because we cannot have certainty in the affairs of this life—until there is a reasonable expectation of a stable, a permanent, and a beneficent Government being established in Egypt."—(3 Hansard, [276] 41.)
  My Lords, these things show what our policy was. We do not wish permanently to occupy Egypt with an armed force; but while that armed force is there we think it our duty to Europe, to ourselves, and to Egypt, to see that our advice should be followed in all important matters connected with Egypt Proper, and to that we have adhered to the present moment. At different times, under Sir Edward Malet, under Lord Dufferin, and under Sir Evelyn Baring, there have been faults of omission and commission of which we thought we

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  had a right to complain. Down to just before the resignation of Cherif Pasha the excuses sent to us were entirely of the same character, always admitting that during our temporary occupation of Egypt the Egyptian Government were bound to follow our advice. My Lords, I have had occasion to assure the Egyptian Government quite recently of our determination to support it in its efforts to secure stability in that country. We feel bound to defend Egypt Proper, and to assist in defending Egypt Proper on the Red Sea, and in obtaining security and tranquillity in Egypt. My Lords, we have given promises of support to the Khedive, and I am bound to admit that I know nothing more creditable to the noble Marquess than that, both in Parliament and out of Parliament, he has always, in the strongest terms, stated that it was our positive duty in honour to support the present Khedive. Well, my Lords, having, though somewhat reluctantly, mentioned the Khedive, I wish to mention to your Lordships some grave accusations which were made against Tewfik Pasha—accusations of the most damaging character—that he, of all men in the world, had been guilty of inciting to massacres at Alexandria. Memoranda were presented to Lord Randolph Churchill, and sent by him to the Prime Minister and to a morning paper, containing so-called proofs. Well, I speak now before all the Law Lords in this House; I know at least one who has waded through those documents; and I say, without the slightest hesitation, that there is not the slightest vestige of evidence either of a moral or a legal character against the Khedive. There are surmises, there are hearsay remarks made sometimes by un-named persons, at other times by those whose natural enmity to the Khedive has been increased by the punishment which they were undergoing in consequence of their connection with rebellion, but unsupported by anything whatever like proof. They were supported by certain extracts from Blue Books; but I regret that when these extracts were given to Lord Randolph Churchill he did not collate them with the Blue Books themselves. They are nearly all wrong. I could give several, but I will only trouble your Lordships with one. Mr. Hewart is quoted as saying—
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  "From information gathered from many sources, I am fully of opinion that the riot of the 11th was a preconcerted plan,"
  the inference being that Mr. Hewart was convinced that the riots were preconcerted by the Khedive; but if the whole sentence out of the Blue Book had been quoted, it would have run thus—
  "The riot was a preconcerted plan by His Excellency Arabi Pasha and his partizans."
  My Lords, since the time when the first part was omitted of the quotation—"The fool hath said in his heart 'There is no God,'" I do not think there has ever been a bolder dealing with a text than this. With regard to our policy. We are told that our policy has led to utter confusion and anarchy in Egypt. The noble Marquess jumbles up Egypt Proper and the Soudan in a very clever way, which was easily disposed of by the noble Marquess behind me. I can only say this—that Sir Evelyn Baring, after he arrived at Cairo, told me that to his very great surprise he found that everything connected with the action of the Government was in a better position than when he left the country at the expiration of his control. A Colleague of mine, the Under Secretary of State for India, in addressing his constituents the other day, told them what I believe to be perfectly true. He had recently passed two months in Egypt, and he stated that it was safer to walk through any part of Egypt Proper at this moment by day or by night than it is to walk from Euston Square to Waterloo Station in this great and civilized Metropolis. Instead of there being anarchy and confusion, there is perfect security for life and property in Egypt at this very moment, even although they have been disturbed by the great disasters arid massacres in the Soudan. My Lords, there is one point on which I quite admit there is a serious consideration that may be urged, and it is with reference to finance. Putting entirely aside the normal condition of Egyptian finance, is it possible that Egyptian finance should not be very heavily disturbed by the fact that, after a successful military rebellion, the country has suffered from pestilence in the I shape of cholera during two months, directly and indirectly interfering with the revenue, and has to pay an enormous indemnity created by the events

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  at Alexandria, and by the expenses of our troops at Cairo, and the further expense of withdrawing the garrisons from the Soudan? All this, however, was done at less expense than would be involved in the insane attempt which I understand the noble Marquess recommends at this moment—that we should try and reconquer the Soudan. The noble Marquess really talks of the Soudan as if it were not under an entirely separate administration from Egypt Proper. By the Law of Liquidation we can treat it in a separate manner. The Soudanese and the Egyptians are of an entirely different character. The prayer of the Egyptian peasant is—"Give me plenty of water, but save me from the Soudan." General Gordon says that—
  "It would he an iniquity to reconquer these people, and then hand them hack to their old oppressors—the Egyptians—without guarantees of future good government. It is evident that this we cannot secure them without an inordinate expenditure of men and money. The Soudan is a useless possession, ever was so, and ever will he so. Larger than Germany, France, and Spain together, and mostly barren, it cannot he governed except by a Dictator, who may he good or had. If had, he will cause constant revolts. No one who has ever lived in the Soudan can escape the reflection—' What a useless possession is this land.' Few men also can stand its fearful monotony and deadly climate."
  It has been a loss to Egypt ever since 60 years ago, when Mehemet Ali took possession of it. It has been a perpetual drain of money from Egypt, and the calculation is that Egypt has lost more than 100,000 soldiers who have been sent there. The noble Marquess proposes to the House, not to "scuttle out" of the Soudan, but Bays that we advised the Khedive, and advised him in the most pressing manner—not to use the word "abandon," because it is not necessary—but to withdraw the troops, who could not possibly reconquer the country. I quite admit that the Khedive owns the Soudan under the authority of the Sultan; but the Sultan has no troops to send to reconquer the Soudan. I have no reason to suppose that he wishes to reconquer the Soudan. And to propose that impossible task for the purpose of making jokes about "scuttling out" appears to me to be going beyond the limits of fair argument. The noble Marquess is dreadfully alarmed about
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  the Rothschilds. I agree with him that that is one of the most sagacious and honourable houses in Europe, and I really think we may leave the house of Rothschild to act for themselves in the way of finance. The noble Marquess says the Egyptian Government is prohibited by Firman from contracting such loans; but I may say that by the Law of Liquidation it is provided that they may raise £2,000,000. I do not wish to argue the question. I think that Baron Rothschild would be perfectly capable of judging for himself. The noble Marquess is perfectly convinced that a secret and confidential declaration has been made to the Rothschilds, and that it announces to him a policy which we have kept quite secret from the rest of the world. My Lords, Baron Rothschild knows no more whatever than any one of your Lordships or the public know of our declarations of policy, which I have repeated to-night. I really think the noble Marquess might have shown something of the tone which Lord Carnarvon took when the other day he heard that General Gordon had been despatched to the Soudan. He talks of our tarnishing the honour of a great and brave officer by sending him out—perfectly sanguine and full of hope, though at great danger and full of peril—to perform an act of humanity of the very highest character. I do not think that if you gave General Gordon an Army of 100,000 men to direct against any part of an enemy's country, you could more honour him than you do by confiding such a work to his hands. The Egyptians are not able to hold or reconquer the Soudan, and you send a man who has confidence—which, I trust, under God, will be fulfilled—that he will be able to assist some of the garrisons in making a retreat from that country. But what I do protest against, in the strongest manner, is the notion that English soldiers, or Indian soldiers, or the produce of English taxation should be applied to reconquering, or re-establishing Egyptian rule, through some false notion of honour, in this barren desert in the centre of Africa, without any sort of advantage to Egypt, or the slightest bearing on our interests in India. The noble Marquess indicated that we should immediately send an Army into the Soudan; but, except that intimation, he has not told us in the

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  least what we are to do. A Colleague of his the other day was more kind. I think, if the noble Marquess really believes that this country is disgracing itself, and that Egypt is perfectly ruined, he can hardly avail himself of the worn-out quotation of Sir Robert Peel, "that you must not prescribe till you are called in." "Would any respectable physician, seeing a man dying in the streets, withhold his advice until he had received his fee? I think the noble Marquess should give us some more practical suggestion than this favourite one of his—that we should reconquer the Soudan. Sir Richard Cross told Her Majesty's Government—No; he said the miserable Government—that they should say—" We do not want to annex Egypt, but will not leave it until the Khedive is in the position we promised to place him—in such a position that he can honourably maintain himself, and the fellaheen have all the security to which they are entitled." This is a much less precise and a much less comprehensive assertion than the formula I have quoted. I maintain, and perfectly consistently, that by these documents which I have quoted we do feel bound to maintain the security and tranquillity of Egypt until the purpose for which our Army was sent to Egypt has been accomplished.
  Address agreed to, nemine dissentiente, and ordered to be presented to Her Majesty by the Lords with White Staves.

  CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES.
  The Earl of REDESDALE appointed, nemine disuentiente, to take the Chair in all Committees of this House for this Session.
  COMMITTEE FOR PRIVILEGES—Appointed.
  SUB-COMMITTEE FOR THE JOURNALS—Appointed.
  APPEAL COMMITTEE—Appointed.

  CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACT, 1878, AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Act, 1878, with respect to the importation of foreign cattle—Was presented by The Duke of RICHMOND and GORDON: read 1a. (No. 5.)
  House adjourned at half past Six o'clock, to Thursday next, a quarter past Four o'clock.