Sitting of 7 June 1883

MINUTES.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—Postponed Resolution [May 31] considered.
PRIVATE BILL (by Order)—Considered as amended —Oxford, Aylesbury, and Metropolitan Junction Railway *.
Withdrawn—Totnes, Paignton, and Torquay Direct Railway *.
PUBLIC BILLS—Resolution in Committee—Parliamentary Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Practices) [Payment of Costs and Expenses] *.
Ordered—First Reading—Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (Cambridge, &c.) *[216]; Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 2) (Aston, &c.) *[217]; Electric Lighting Provisional Orders (No. 3) (Halsall Heath, &c.) *[218]; Railway Passenger Duty, &c. * [219].
Second Reading—Consolidated Fund (No. 3) *. Committee—Parliamentary Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Practices) [7] [First Night]— R. P.
Considered as amended—Local Government Provisional Orders (No. 2)* [143].
Third Reading—Pier and Harbour Provisional Order (No. 2) *[158]; Tramways (Ireland) Provisional Order (Extension of Time)* [181], and passed.

QUESTIONS.

  INDIA—LAW AND JUSTICE—ALLEGED SEVERITY OF SENTENCE.
  MR. P. A. TAYLORasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether it is true, as reported in the "Times of India" of May 11th, that Mr. Justice Kernan, of the Madras High Court, lately sentenced two men to penal servitude for life, the one for stealing "a quantity of brinjals and two bundles of plantains valued, at two rupees," the other for stealing a cloth valued at sixteen rupees. (It is stated that on the following morning the Judge "commuted the sentence on the first prisoner to six years' rigorous imprisonment in consideration of his advanced age);" and, if he will inquire whether the Madras Government has given its sanction to these sentences?
  MR. J. K. CROSS: Sir, I have seen the report in The Times of India referred to. It relates to two separate cases, the details of which appeared in other Indian papers, and are as follows:—The old man, whose sentence was reduced to six years, had been convicted four times previously. The Judge thought the case one for transportation—not for imprisonment; and, not having power to pass sentence of transportation for anything less than life, he sentenced him for life, saying, at the same time, that he would recommend Government to reduce the period.

  1901
  The other prisoner, who was convicted, not of stealing a gold laced cloth, but of receiving it knowing it to have been stolen, had also previously been convicted four times. On the last occasion, in 1878, the Judge, in passing sentence of five years' imprisonment, which only expired last February, warned him that if again convicted he would be transported for life. There is no reason why special inquiry should be made into these cases.

  EGYPT (MILITARY EXPEDITION)— SUPPLY OF FLOUR FOR THE TROOPS.
  DR. CAMERONasked the Secretary of State for War, with reference to the unsound flour received in Egypt for the use of our troops, and the statement respecting it submitted to Lord Morley's Commission by the Assistant Director of Supplies and Transport, Whether the samples were prior to its purchase submitted to and approved by the Director of Supplies and Transport, and the Commissary General at head quarters, or any official trained as a commissariat officer; and, if so, whom; who is responsible for mode of shipment, which is alleged to have contributed to its unsoundness; and, who on behalf of the Government examined the flour in detail before shipment, and took the usual steps to see that sample and bulk supplies agreed?
  MR. BRAND: Sir, it being necessary to send flour from this country to meet the requirements of the troops on first landing in Egypt, and until local supplies suited to the climate could be obtained, the class of flour to be sent was determined on the advice of Messrs. Bovill and Co., the War Office brokers. They considered that of the stocks then available in London for immediate shipment, American, which had been successfully used in Natal and in the West Indies, was best calculated to meet climate and service requirements with a minimum of risk. The opinion of these gentlemen, who are specialists of the highest standing, was considered conclusive, and their selection was approved by the Director of Supplies on the samples they submitted to him. Commissary General Morris, who had been appointed senior Commissariat officer of the Expeditionary Force, and who had been brought to the War Office from Ireland to advise generally on supply questions
  1902
  connected with the force, was temporarily absent from London when the flour was selected. The Director of Supplies is responsible for sending stores alongside the ship. The stowage on board is done under the professional supervision of the Admiralty. In reply to the hon. Member's concluding inquiry, I have to say that the Government brokers thoroughly tested the bulk supplies, and furnished certificates from the Dock Company, as to the condition in which the bags were shipped. This is the custom of the London trade. It affords sufficient protection for the vast transactions of the mercantile public; and it would have been very unwise for the War Department to set up temporarily a different system for its comparatively restricted transactions.
  DR. CAMERON: Was the Director of Supplies consulted before the American flour was decided upon?
  MR. BRAND: I have said that he is responsible. He was unwell at the time the arrangement was made; but his duties were most efficiently carried out by the Assistant Director of Supplies.
  SIR HENRY TYLER: I should like to know if any steps have been taken to recover compensation for the bad quality of the flour?
  MR. BRAND: No further steps have been taken. As I stated in reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, the War Office brokers—specialists of the highest standing—were consulted and their advice acted upon.
  SIR HENRY TYLER: Have no steps been taken with a view to punishment?

  DISPENSARY HOUSES (IRELAND) ACT, 1879—SEC. 8—PALLASKENRY DISPENSARY.
  MR. SYNANasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether, against the frequent protests of the Board of Guardians of the Rathkeale Union, the Board of Public Works (Ireland) effected an insurance on the Pallaskenry dispensary buildings, in said union, at double the rate usual in said union, and put the guardians to great delay and inconvenience in reducing said rate to the usual rate; whether the said Board of Works carried out the negotiation for said insurance so loosely that the entire amount of the insurance is placed on the most insignificant part of the buildings, and whether they will take steps to remedy

  1903
  that defect; whether the loan by the Board of Works is secured by a mortgage on the rates of the union, and not on said buildings; and, whether they wore justified in interfering with the right and discretion of the Board of Guardians to effect the insurance in the manner they considered most economical and best for the union?
  MR. COURTNEY: Sir, the facts, as furnished to me, differ materially from those given in the Question. The insurance in this case was effected by the Board of Works under the 8th section of the Dispensary Houses Act of 1879. The insuring Company tried to get a double rate; but the Board stopped this as soon as they were able. The policy covers all the buildings erected under the loan. The loan is primarily charged upon the buildings.
  MR. SYNANasked whether a separate value was put on these buildings for the purposes of the insurance?
  MR. COURTNEY: Unquestionably not. The whole building was insured together.

  AFRICA (WEST COAST)—AFFAIRS OF ASHANTEE.
  SIR HENRY HOLLANDasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether the further Report promised by Sir Samuel Rowe upon the state of affairs in Ashantee has been received; and, whether Papers upon this subject will soon be presented to the House?
  MR. EVELYN ASHLEY: Sir, the further despatch from Sir Samuel Rowe, to which I referred in my Answer the other day, has arrived; but it does not contain so full a report as was expected, because Sir Samuel Rowe, as he informs us, has sent Captain Barrow and Inspector Kirby to Coomassie to inquire on the spot into the state of things. However, Papers up to the latest date connected with this question will be at once laid on the Table.

  SOUTH AFRICA (THE TRANSVAAL)—THE LOAN.
  MR. GORSTasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether any part of the amount (£100,000) which the Transvaal Government engaged to pay to Her Majesty's Government within the financial year 1882-3, and which was reduced by consent to £50,000, has yet been paid?
  MR. EVELYN ASHLEY: The answer to this Question, Sir, would be, No; but I may add that, as it would be convenient that the House should be accurately informed of what has passed and happened in connection with this Transvaal Debt, all the recent Correspondence relating to it shall now be laid on the Table as a separate Paper.
  MR. GORST: Will the hon. Member say whether Her Majesty's Government have any expectation that this sum will be shortly or ever paid?
  MR. EVELYN ASHLEY: According to the information received by the Government, there is at present no money with which to defray the liability.

  MAINTENANCE OF MAIN ROADS (SOUTH WALES).
  MR. H. ALLENasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether the Grant in Aid of Main Roads in South Wales this year will be on the same basis as last year, viz. to the extent of half the average expense, since 1870, in excess of income derived from tolls?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Yes, Sir.

  THE CASTLE, DUBLIN—ST. PATRICK'S HALL.
  LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the Board of Works in Ireland have drawn the attention of the Treasury to the very dilapidated condition of St. Patrick's Hall, Dublin Castle, and have sent in an estimate for the general repairs; if so, why that estimate has not been submitted to the House of Commons; if he is aware that, on account of the dilapidated and ruinous condition of the walls of St. Patrick's Hall, the Knights of St. Patrick created since 1868 have been prevented from having their banners and shields hung up according to ancient custom, although they have been charged and have paid very heavy fees for that purpose; and, if he will submit an estimate for the necessary repairs during the course of the Session?
  MR. COURTNEY: I understand, Sir, that St. Patrick's Hall is much in want of painting and gilding; but it is not dilapidated, still less ruinous. The

  1905
  Board of Works reported in the autumn that it could be painted and gilded at a cost of £400; but, looking to the heavy charges on the Vote for Irish public buildings this year, the Treasury decided to postpone this work until more urgent claims have been met. Provision was made for repairing the walls so as to allow of the insignia of Knights being hung; but, in order not to disturb the walls twice, they will not be hung up until the other work is taken in hand.

  COMMISSIONERS OF WOODS AND FORESTS—THE NEW FOREST.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked the Right honourable Member for North Hants, as official Verderer, Whether it is the case that a serious encroachment is being made by the Commissioners of Woods and Forests on the rights of the Commoners of the New Forest in respect of the pasturage; and, whether he can state the nature of the encroachment, and what steps the Court of Verderers have taken to guard the interests of the Commoners?
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTH: Sir, a Memorial has been addressed to the Verderers of the New Forest by certain Commoners, complaining of damage which is being caused to the pasture by the operations of a person who has been licensed by the Commissioners of Woods to dig for and carry away loam. A summons has been issued against the licencee; and the questions involved, which are undoubtedly of importance, have been the subject of correspondence between the Commissioners and the Verderers, so that my hon. Friend may feel assured that they are receiving careful attention.

  POOR LAW (IRELAND)—ELECTION OF GUARDIANS, CLIFDEN UNION.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If his attention has been called to the circumstances of the election of Poor Law Guardian for the electoral district of Bunawen, in the Clifden Union, in which the candidates were Joseph M'Culla and Valentine Kelly; if he is aware that Joseph M'Culla claims to have a majority of votes; and, in spite of his demand for a
  1906
  scrutiny, Mr. Blake, his opponent, was allowed to take his seat without any such scrutiny taking place; and, if, under the circumstances, the Local Government Board will direct the scrutiny asked for to take place?
  MR. TREVELYAN: Sir, Mr. Kelly, not Mr. Blake, was returned as elected by a majority of one vote, and was entitled to take his seat as a Guardian. Mr. M'Culla, the defeated candidate, asked for a scrutiny of the votes; but his demand was based merely upon a general statement of his belief that he ought to have had a majority of votes. The Local Government Board could not take any action on a vague statement of this kind, but informed Mr. M'Culla that if he would furnish them with a list of any votes which he thought were improperly recorded, and the grounds of his opinion, they would cause inquiries to be made. I see no reason to interfere with this decision.

  NAVAL DISCIPLINE ACTS AMENDMENT BILL.
  MR. W. H. SMITHasked the Secretary to the Admiralty, If he will lay upon the Table a list of the Prisons within the limits of the Mediterranean, North American, Pacific, China, East Indian, Australian, and Cape and West Coast of Africa Stations, in which it is proposed to carry out sentences of imprisonment which may be inflicted by court martial, under the provisions of the Naval Discipline Bill, before that Bill is read a second time?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: Sir, I do not think there will be any objection to giving a return of the Consular Prisons within the limits of the several Naval Stations, and I will communicate with the Foreign Office on the subject. I would, however, point out to the right hon. Gentleman that it is only intended, under the Naval Discipline Acts Amendment Bill, to take power to confine Naval prisoners in such gaols, and that that power will only be used in the case of gaols reported to be fit for the purpose.
  CAPTAIN PRICEasked the hon. Gentleman to lay upon the Table a Return showing the number of cases of corporal punishment since 1870, the number of cases of punishment for striking superior officers, and the number of cases of theft?
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMAN: I should be glad if the hon. and gallant Gentleman would supply me with particulars of what he wishes.

  ARMY—TROOPS IN INDIA (NUMBERS).
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTONasked the Under Secretary of State for India, If he can inform the House how many thousand men the European Army in India is below its fixed establishment?
  MR. J. K. CROSS: Sir, this information was given by Lord Morley on Monday last in the House of Lords. The deficiency in Cavalry and Infantry is 4,971. There is an excess of 34 in Artillery.

  ARMY—PARADING OF ROMAN CATHOLIC SOLDIERS FOR DIVINE SERVICE ON HOLY DAYS.
  COLONEL COLTHURSTasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether there would be any objection to parading Roman Catholic soldiers for service on holy days in the same way that they are paraded on Sundays: provided always, that arrangements can be made upon such days for not interfering with the ordinary routine of the service?
  MR. MACARTNEYasked whether there would be any objection to parading Irish Protestant soldiers on July 12, August 12, November 5, and December 18?
  SIR ARTHUR HAYTER: Sir, I think that my reply to the hon. and gallant Member for Cork County will satisfactorily answer the Question of the hon. Gentleman opposite. It is the custom of the Service to give Roman Catholic soldiers every facility for attending Divine Service on holy days, when military duty is not interfered with thereby. Instructions were sent to all General Officers in April, 1881, to this effect. No further orders on the subject are considered necessary.

  PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—EXTRA POLICE AT KILMALLOCK.
  MR. O'SULLIVANasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Why it is that extra Police are still retained in Kilmallock district at the expense of the ratepayers, notwithstanding the fact that no serious crime
  1908
  or outrage has been committed in that district for the past two years?
  MR. TREVELYAN: Sir, I have already, in reply to former Questions, explained the circumstances under which these extra police are required at Kilmallock; and I regret to say that they do not appear to have undergone in the interval any change which would justify the withdrawal of the police. A respectable man living three miles from Kilmallock is kept in constant danger of his life. He is mercilessly "Boycotted" for claiming the protection of the Government from illegal orders passed against him by the Kilmallock Land League. The "Boycotting" was instituted, and is in great part kept up, by people of Kilmallock. This persecution and personal danger continue to this day; and so long as this is the case the police cannot be removed.
  MR. O'SULLIVAN: Is not this case in a different barony altogether? It is not in the Kilmallock Barony.
  MR. TREVELYAN: The proceedings, which took the form of a mock judicial proceeding, were proceedings taken by the Kilmallock Land League itself.
  MR. O'SULLIVAN: Is not that two years since? Has any action of the kind taken place during the last six months?
  MR. TREVELYAN: The "Boycotting" is still kept up, I am sorry to say.

  SPAIN—EXPULSION OF CERTAIN CUBAN REFUGEES FROM GIBRALTAR —COLONEL MACEO.
  MR. O'KELLYasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Colonel Maceo is now treated with the consideration due to his rank, or whether it is true that he is kept under lock and key during the twenty-four hours of the day; and, whether Her Majesty's Government intend to make any further representations to the Spanish Government with a view to securing the absolute liberation of Colonel Maceo?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: Sir, Her Majesty's Government hare quite recently received renewed assurances, in reply to inquiries on their part, that Colonel Maceo is treated as a prisoner of war of superior military rank. Papers will be laid on the Table.

  EGYPT (RE-ORGANIZATION)—IRRIGATION WORKS.
  MR. CARBUTTasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, What steps, if any, have been taken to re-organize the engineer service of the irrigation works in Egypt, and if in any appointments that may be made, the claims of civil engineers will be duly considered?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: Colonel C. Scott-Moncrieff has been appointed Inspector General of Irrigation, and the applications for appointments under that officer have, when received by the Secretary of State, been forwarded to the Egyptian Government; but that Government does not appear to contemplate making any further appointments at present. The most competent persons, whether military or civil, will be appointed. There is no reason to believe that there is any intention of not duly considering the claims of civil engineers.

  EXPLOSIVE SUBSTANCES ACT, 1883—THE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.
  MR. JOSEPH COWENasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, in reference to the Orders in Council of 20th April, Whether Chief Constables are bound to recognize certificates granted in one district for keeping explosives for private use, when the holders of the certificates may use the explosives in districts different from those in which they obtained the certificates of fitness to keep explosives?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Yes, Sir; I understand that these certificates will be personal to the holders of them, and will be available in different districts.

  PUBLIC WORKS LOANS—LEGISLATION.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether it is the intention of the Government to introduce a Public Works Loan Bill this year, and when he expects to do so; and, whether he will inform the House; either by means of a Return or otherwise, what has been the course of the advances and repayments to the Public Works Loan Fund in the last financial year; and how far it is pro-
  1910
  bable that the excess of repayments over advances, to which he referred in his Budget speech, will go?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. CHILDERS): Sir, in reply to my right hon. Friend, I have to say it is my intention to introduce shortly a Public Works Loan Bill. I cannot name the day for its introduction at this moment. In reply to the second Question, I have to say that the advances out of the Exchequer for Public Works during the last financial year amounted to £630,567, and the repayments were £1,291,186. I presume that the passage in my Financial Statement to which my right hon. Friend refers is that in which I said that the balances being £1,000,000 more than at the same time in the previous year, I proposed to pay off £1,000,000 of the Indian Loan of £2,000,000. The Exchequer balance on the 31st of March, 1882, was £5,977,000, and on the 31st of March, 1883, £6,973,000, showing an increase as near as possible of £1,000,000. I propose to devote this £1,000,000, which had already accrued on the 31st of March, to paying off half the debt due on the Indian Loan; and I ask for the necessary powers in the National Debt Bill now before the House. I cannot at this moment form an approximate estimate of the excess of repayments over advances during the present financial year.

  LITERATURE, SCIENCE, AND ART—SOUTH KENSINGTON MUSEUM— THE ART GALLERY.
  MR. DILLWYNasked the Vice President of the Committee of Council for Education, Whether purchases of pictures for the South Kensington Museum have been recently made; and, if so, whether it is intended to establish at that institution a second national collection of pictures, in addition to that of the National Gallery; and, if such be the case, by whose recommendation, and on whose judgment, the purchases of pictures for South Kensington have been made?
  MR. MUNDELLA: Sir, purchases of water-colour drawings and pictures are made for South Kensington, in accordance with a practice of many years' standing. It originated in 1857, when, by a Minute of the Board of Trade, ap-

  1911
  proved by the Treasury, the Sheepshanks collection was accepted, "in order to found a Gallery of British Art in connection with the Schools of Art under this Board." The subject is fully treated in the Report of the Committee of the House of Commons on the South Kensington Museum in 1860. If my hon. Friend will refer to the Civil Service Estimates, he will find a sum has appeared in the Votes for this purpose under a separate heading for many years past. The drawings and pictures are selected with special reference to the completion of the historical collection of British water-colour artists, and for use as examples for students in the Art Training Schools, and for circulation among the Schools of Art in the country. The purchases have been made on the recommendation of the Director for Art—at one time Mr. Redgrave—then Mr. Poynter—now Mr. Armstrong. The collection of British water-colour drawings at South Kensington is the most complete and interesting historical collection in existence. The National Gallery does not purchase water-colour drawings; and my hon. Friend will see that there can be no rivalry between the National Gallery and South Kensington, when I say that the whole of the purchases last year did not exceed £400.

  FRANCE AND CHINA—RUMOUR OF IMPENDING HOSTILITIES.
  MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Her Majesty's Government have any information confirming the telegrams in Tuesday's "Standard," which state that a war between France and China is imminent? The hon. Member wished to ask in addition a Question of which he had not given Notice, Whether the Under Secretary could inform the House what Power was referred to by the French Foreign Secretary in the late debate in the French Assembly, when he stated that a Great Power was now egging on China to resist the demands of France?
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICE: I prefer, Sir, to confine my Answer to the Question on the Paper. Her Majesty's Government have received no information confirmatory of the telegraphic announcements referred to in the hon. Member's Question.

  CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACTS—DETACHED DISTRICTS.
  MR. HASTINGSasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Whether his attention has been called to the inconvenience and difficulty frequently experienced in the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Acts by the existence of detached and semi-detached parts of counties; and, whether he will introduce a Bill to give to Quarter Sessions the same power of transferring to neighbouring local authorities their jurisdiction under the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Acts, as they now possess of transferring the Police administration under the Police Acts?
  MR. DODSON, in reply, said, that he was aware of the inconveniences arising in the administration of the Contagious Diseases (Animals) Acts. The difficulty referred to in the Question could be met, to a great extent, by arrangements between the local authorities. That being so, the evil appeared hardly sufficiently pressing to necessitate the introduction of a Bill for the particular purpose stated, especially as it would involve questions of rating which would give rise to difficulty. The matter, however, would receive attention.

  PARLIAMENT—THE HOUSE OF COMMONS—VENTILATION OF THE COMMITTEE ROOMS.
  MR. VIVIANasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether he will cause an investigation to be made into the ventilation of the Committee Rooms, with the object of securing a proper supply of fresh air without the draughts which are now necessitated by the opening of the windows? The hon. Member stated that since giving Notice of his Question he had found that the inconvenience was of a far graver character than he thought. A witness who recently gave evidence before a Committee was taken ill in the Committee Room, and expired shortly afterwards.
  MR. SHAW LEFEVRE, in reply, said, that he believed the Question referred to the ordinary, not the Grand Committee Rooms. It did occasionally happen, when there was great public interest in any inquiry, that the Committee Room was inconveniently crowded, and complaints were made as to the ventilation. It was only in these exceptional cases

  1913
  that he had heard complaints. The whole subject of the ventilation of Committee Rooms was considered by a Committee some two or three years ago, and every improvement which could be suggested was effected. He was not aware that anything further could be done now.
  MR. J. R. YORKEthought the right hon. Gentleman did not realize the gravity of the matter. He wished the right hon. Gentleman would favour with his presence some morning the Room in which the Committee on the Manchester Ship Canal Bill were sitting. That Committee had been at work de die in diem since May, and was likely to sit into July. It was very crowded, and if the Chief Commissioner would attend there for a short time some morning he would have some faint idea of the sufferings of those who were forced to attend, day after day, under the influence of the genial climate with which they were favoured in this part of the country.
  MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, that he was informed that the Room in question had been inconveniently crowded, and he was also informed that no remedy was possible when that was the case.

  POST OFFICE (CONTRACTS)—THE IRISH MAIL SERVICE.
  MR. GRAYasked the Postmaster General, Whether he is aware that the litigation between the city of Dublin and the London and North Western Railway Company, by which the latter were prohibited from charging excessive rates for passengers by the mail route, was based on the existing contract, which expires on the 1st of October next; whether he is aware that the maximum rates the Railway Company is authorised to charge by Act of Parliament are practically prohibitive, and are largely in excess of those actually charged, and therefore that this general provision gives no protection to the public; whether he is aware that the passenger rates charged by the London and North Western Railway Company on their Irish Mail Service are in excess of those charged by the Scotch Limited Mail of the same Company, and the rates charged by other Companies for even faster services; whether, under these circumstances, the Government will in the hew contract provide for reasonable Railway passenger fares by the Irish Mail Service, not exceeding the mileage rate by the
  1914
  Scotch Limited Mail; and, in the event of the contract for the sea service being obtained by the City of Dublin Company, that they will provide that the fares between Holyhead and Dublin by the mail service shall not exceed the rates charged by the North Western Company's boats in the rival service viâ Northwall; also, whether the terms of the tender for the conveyance of the mails between Holyhead and Kingstown empowers the Government to give the contract for the conveyance of the mails temporarily to the City of Dublin Steam Packet Company, and the permanent contract to the London and North Western Railway Company, whose contract would commence at the termination of the temporary contract one or two years hence; and, if so, whether he will kindly quote that portion of the tender which provides for two contracts for the sea service with two different contractors?
  MR. FAWCETT: Sir, in reply to the hon. Member, I may state that the litigation between the Dublin Steam Packet Company and the London and North-Western Railway Company was based on the existing contract. The maximum rates which the Railway Company is authorized to charge are, no doubt, considerably in excess of those actually charged. I have ascertained that the fares charged to first and second class passengers by the mail train to Holyhead exceed by about one farthing a mile those charged by the London and Northwestern Railway by the mail trains to Edinburgh and Glasgow; but the fares charged to Holyhead are less per mile than those charged by the London and South-Western Railway Company and the Great Western Company for somewhat faster trains to Exeter. I stated on Tuesday last that care would be taken, as far as possible, to secure the interests of passengers under the new contract; and a letter has accordingly been written to the London and North-Western Railway Company stating that, to whomever the sea service may be given, it would be a condition of any new contract with the Railway Company that passengers should be carried by the mail trains, that through booking arrangements should be made, and that some security should be given that the public would not be prevented from availing themselves of the mail trains in consequence of unduly

  1915
  high fares. The terms of the tenders which have been advertised for the conveyance of the mails between Holyhead and Kingstown provide only for a permanent service by one contractor. But as the possibility is contemplated that the City of Dublin Company, and others tendering for the service, may be able at the end of one or two years to provide better boats than those now in use, it has been deemed advisable to make arrangements, as far as possible, to provide for the service until the improved boats can be ready.
  MR. GRAY: I apologize for having to ask another Question of the right hon. Gentleman. Could he kindly state in what portion of the tender it is set forth that it is in the contemplation of the Department to enter into two separate contracts with two separate parties? There is, undoubtedly, a provision that a temporary service of an inferior kind, or not of the superior character contemplated, might be permitted for a certain period; but that the parties who were to obtain the permanent contract——
  MR. FAWCETT, interposing, said: I think the hon. Member, on looking at the advertisement, will see that the case is very clearly stated. The case that was anticipated was this—Suppose the Dublin Company said—" At the end of two years we shall be in a position to supply more commodious and faster boats than we now have; but, of course, that will take time." The hon. Member will see that the tenders are so framed as to give the Department an opportunity of entering into a temporary arrangement with the Dublin Company or any other Company, not for an inferior service, but for a temporary service, until the new boats, by whomsoever they are supplied, should be ready.
  MR. GRAY: Do I understand, from the right hon. Gentleman's Answer, that the temporary service is not to be inferior to the present service?
  MR. FAWCETT: I should not like to give any pledge upon that point. That is a question which will have to be carefully considered. If, for instance, we could secure permanently a very much better service by having a somewhat inferior service for a very short period, it might be a question whether that should not be put up with; but I think it would be better not to say any more on that point.
  MR. GIBSON: The point on which there is a great fear in Ireland, and which has been put by the hon. Member for Carlo w (Mr. Gray), is this—Is it contemplated that the short temporary contract for one or two years will enable the Post Office authorities to accept the use of the present boats of the London and North-Western Company?
  MR. FAWCETT: I do not think it is at all likely.
  MR. GIBSON: But is it possible?
  MR. FAWCETT: Well, it would be possible; but I do not think it would be at all likely. I have been anxious, as far as possible, that this question should be considered in wide aspects; and our only object is to secure the best passenger service for the public, and the best mail service for the Post Office. It was desirable to contemplate the possibility that there would be other competition besides that of the North-Western and the Dublin Companies. Of course, I am not in a position to state what other parties will tender; but before the advertisement appeared I received a letter from a very leading shipowner in Liverpool, asking me to give time, so that some other persons besides the Dublin and the London and North-Western Companies should have an opportunity of tendering, and that was one reason why the last day for receiving tenders had been postponed.
  MR. MACARTNEY: May I ask, if the London and North-Western Company sent in a tender offering to supply superior boats two years hence, would the Government accept for the intervening period the boats they now run to the North Wall?
  MR. FAWCETT: I think, as this as been publicly advertised and tenders have been invited, not simply from the Dublin Company and the London and North-Western Company, but from the public generally, it would be very unfair to the parties who wish to tender for me, as it were, to prejudge the case. I think some might be considered to have been taken at a disadvantage.
  MR. GRAY: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman—["Oh!"]—this is a matter of very great interest to Ireland —may I ask if the right hon. Gentleman is aware that since the 1st of June last the North-Western Company has adopted practically the system of racing their boats against the present mail boats, and

  1917
  that the Directors of the Steam Packet Company have given orders that their boats should not be so raced? It would be satisfactory if the right hon. Gentleman would give an answer that the time of this racing competition shall not be taken by him into consideration in dealing with the relative merits of the two sets of boats, especially as racing in fine weather is no criterion of what the racing would be in winter weather.
  MR. FAWCETT: I do not think I can enter into that. The only power Parliament has entrusted to me is that, under the existing contract, I should see that the mails by land and sea were carried within the prescribed time, and that is all I have got to do with it.
  MR. MITCHELL HENRY: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to remember that the deputation which waited on the Prime Minister, at which he (Mr. Faw-cett) was present, distinctly stated that they had no desire to favour one Company more than another, and said they did not want to have an Irish Company favoured simply because it was an Irish Company?
  MR. FAWCETT: What I understand my hon. Friend to say is that the deputation which waited upon the Prime Minister did not wish that an Irish Company should be favoured if the result of that would be to give an inferior service, which I think was an extremely sensible observation.
  MR. HEALY: I beg, Sir, to ask the President of the Board of Trade, whether any steps will be taken to protect the lives of passengers from boiler explosions occurring through these races? I have known the funnels of the steamers sometimes to be very nearly red-hot.

  AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS (ENGLAND) BILL-INCORPORATION OF CLAUSES OF THE ACT OF 1875.
  MR. NEWZAM NICHOLSONasked the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, If he will consider the desirability of incorporating those Clauses of "The Agricultural Holdings Act, 1875," which it is proposed to retain in the present Agricultural Holdings Bill, with the new Bill, and of reporting the Bill as early as possible with such Clauses incorporated therein?
  MR. DODSON: It has; apparently, escaped the observation of the hon.
  1918
  Member that I answered two similar Questions to this on Thursday last. In my reply to the right hon. Baronet the Member for East Gloucestershire (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach), I fully explained the position of the Government.

  VACCINATION—SYPHILITIC INFECTION.
  SIR LYON PLAYFAIRasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether one of the Board's officers, in the course of an investigation into the conditions under which syphilis can be transmitted in the act of vaccination, has infected himself with syphilis, and has seriously injured his health; and, whether, if that be true, the conditions under which he succeeded in infecting himself were such as might occur during legitimate operations of vaccination?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Yes, Sir; the facts are substantially as stated in the first part of this Question. The officer to whom my right hon. Friend refers, believing that syphilis, although it had very rarely indeed been communicated in any of the operations of vaccination, nevertheless could, under some circumstances, be so communicated, was desirous of learning the conditions under which such a transmission was possible. His object was to obtain better information than any of the rare and accidental cases hitherto reported could afford respecting the precautions proper to be taken for avoiding even risk of such an occurrence during the practice of vaccination. The investigation required experiments to be made on the human body; and these, though, of course, not acting as an officer of the Board, he proceeded to make on his own person, and at the end of his experiment he did infect himself with syphilis. The case is at present the subject of skilled inquiry, and a complete reply to the second part of the Question cannot be given until it has been reported on. I may say, however, that I believe that the result of transmitting the infection of syphilis was not attained without departure in essential respects from the Board's instructions to public vaccinators, and from the recognized practice of all vaccinators. I cannot conclude without expressing my esteem for this official's self-devotion, and my regret for the personal suffering which he has endured through his

  1919
  honourable sacrifice of himself in the interests of science and humanity.
  MR. HOPWOODasked whether it had not been long known and admitted by the Medical Profession that syphilis might be communicated by vaccination?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: I said that in rare and accidental circumstances, and under special circumstances, it might.
  MR. P. A. TAYLORasked whether the right hon. Gentleman was aware of the fact, decided by the highest medical authorities, that it was quite impossible, under all circumstances, to detect the syphilitic taint which might exist in a child from whom the vaccination lymph might have been taken?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: The scientific Report which was being prepared on the present case shows that the circumstances are such as must be brought to the notice of medical practitioners.

  PARLIAMENT—MINISTERIAL ARRANGEMENTS—SCOTCH BUSINESS—THE EARL OF ROSEBERY.
  MR. A. ELLIOTasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, having regard to his statement in the House of Commons of 24th August 1881, and to the recent resignation of Lord Rosebery, he can now state to the House the nature of the re-arrangements contemplated in the administration of Scotch Business, and when they are likely to be given effect to?
  MR. DALRYMPLEasked, with reference to Lord Rosebery's connection with the management of Scotch affairs, If the arrangement was described at the time as giving additional assistance at the Home Office; and whether the right hon. and learned Gentleman was correctly reported to have stated that the arrangement never was intended to be permanent, and was only intended to propitiate Scotch Members; and whether that statement had anything to do with Lord Rosebery's resignation'?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Sir, I am very glad indeed to answer the latter Question before that of the hon. Member for Roxburghshire. I intended to ask the House to be allowed to make a personal statement on the subject. Statements have been made and apparently received with credence by the hon.
  1920
  Member opposite (Mr. Dalrymple) that something I had said or done had been taken amiss by Lord Rosebery, and had conduced, in some manner, to his resignation. All I have to say on my part— and I am desired to say it also on behalf of Lord Rosebery—is that there is not a word of foundation for it. It is an entirely untrue statement, which has not a colour of foundation of any kind or sort. As to the relations between Lord Rosebery and myself, they have been for many years, and, I am happy to say, are still, those of the closest political friendship and personal affection, which has never been disturbed for a single moment. I do not know for what purpose statements of this character are made. I suppose they are intended to give pain. If so, they have succeeded in their object; but I am happy to have the opportunity of saying that they are entirely without foundation. Lord Rosebery wrote to me this morning—
  "I know what you must be feeling under so undeserved an innuendo; but I am quite as indignant as you are."
  I do not think I need say anything more on the personal part of the question. As regards the other matter about which my hon. Friend (Mr. A. Elliot) asks, and to which the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Dalrymple) alludes, what I said the other night I said in, perhaps, too light a manner; but I had hoped that the language I had used would have been understood in the sense in which it was employed. It is perfectly accurate. When Lord Rosebery was good enough to consent to take the Office of Under Secretary of State to the Home Department he took it as a temporary arrangement, and it was so understood by the Government, and so understood by Lord Rosebery and myself, for the purpose of facilitating the conduct of Scotch Business, and it was understood that it was at the desire of a large number of Scotch Members. That arrangement was made in order to meet these views. I explained in the Answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Roxburghshire, to which lie refers in this Question, exactly what had passed, and stated that it was in order to give greater assistance in what I may call the lay as distinguished from the professional Business of Scotland. It was never intended that the arrangement, which had. obvious inconveniences, should be permanently established, nor

  1921
  was it the desire or the view of Lord Rosebery that it should be so. On the contrary, he always desired that there should be a different and more permanent arrangement with reference to Scotch Business. It was prolonged beyond our expectations, though not beyond my wishes, because I think it was my personal urgency to Lord Rosebery which induced him to continue to perform those functions, which he did with so much ability and advantage to Scotland, longer than was originally intended. Lord Rosebery has always had very much at heart some permanent and regular arrangement with reference to Scotch Business. In that the Government have concurred, and they have already announced that a plan of that kind will be introduced. My hon. Friend has asked me to state the details of that arrangement. Being necessarily considerable, they are being worked out, with the assistance of the Lord Advocate, Lord Rosebery, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and I hope we shall have an early opportunity of presenting it to the House. I do not think it would be of any advantage to anticipate the presentation of that scheme as a whole by making any more detailed statement in the meantime.
  MR. A. ELLIOT: I beg to ask to whom the Scottish Members are to look in the meantime, with respect to the conduct of Business described as of a lay character in Scotland?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I am afraid they will have to look to the Secretary of State, until we have another and better arrangement.
  Afterwards,
  MR. JAMES STEWARTasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether the statement which appears in the public journals that Lord Rosebery has resigned his appointment at the Home Office is correct; and, whether he will undertake that the Bill which the Government promised to introduce relating to the conduct of Scottish business will be brought in without further delay?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Certainly, Sir; it is part of the engagement into which we have entered, that that Bill should be introduced and placed in the hands of Members at an early period, so that the Members who represent Scotland
  1922
  should have a full opportunity of considering it.

  SOUTH AFRICA—PROVISION FOR THE DISPLACED CHIEFS—VOTE IN SUPPLY.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHasked the First Lord of the Treasury, If he is now able to state whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to propose a Vote in Supply for the purpose described in his Notice of Motion, of "making adequate provision for the interests of" any South African Chief "who may have just claims on them?"
  MR. GLADSTONE: In the course of next week I hope to give a reply to this Question, which will likewise embrace the subject of the Transvaal Convention.

  PARLIAMENT — BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—THE MEDICAL ACT AMENDMENT BILL.
  LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he can state the intention of the Government, with regard to the Medical Act Amendment Bill, on what day the Government propose to take the Second Reading of that measure, or if he can name any day on which he will be able to state positively when the Second Reading will be taken?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, I will not say anything with regard to this Bill which would lead to the supposition that it would interfere with the progress of the Corrupt Practices Bill or the Tenants' Compensation Bill. But it is a Bill which has been the production of very great labour, and which, I believe, has the very general, and indeed almost universal, assent of the Medical Profession, and which is admitted to embrace provisions of very great importance. Under these circumstances we believe that such a Bill will have a favourable reception from the House. We contemplate passing it this Session, and I shall study to find a means, without disturbing present arrangements, for making progress with the remaining stages of the Bill.
  LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILLasked the right hon. Gentleman if he could state positively when the Bill would be taken, and if ample Notice of it would be given?
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, that the best way would be for the representatives of

  1923
  the Medical Council to put themselves into communication with his right hon. Friend the Vice President. They would then endeavour to arrange when the Bill should be taken.

  PARLIAMENT—BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—POLICE SUPERANNUATION BILL.
  MR. A. PEELasked the First Lord of the Treasury, When he proposes to take the Second Reading of the Police Superannuation Bill; and, whether he could arrange to place it as the First Order at a Morning Sitting?
  SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONasked the right hon. Gentleman, before he answered the Question, to bear in mind that the Bill affected a large body of public servants throughout the country; that it was opposed in that House; and whether, under the circumstances, the Bill should not be brought on when it could receive full discussion?
  Mr. GLADSTONEsaid, he entirely agreed with what had been stated by the hon. Baronet and suggested by his hon. Friend. He could not name a day for taking the second reading of the Bill at the present moment, but he would endeavour to place it as the first Order at a Morning Sitting.

  AGRICULTURAL HOLDINGS (ENGLAND) BILL—LEASEHOLDERS IN URBAN DISTRICTS.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether Her Majesty's Government will be prepared in Committee to introduce into the Agricultural Holdings Bill provisions to secure to the leaseholders of houses in urban districts the right, at the expiration of their leases, to claim from the ground landlord compensation for improvements effected in their tenements at their own expense?
  MR. BROADHURSTasked the right hon. Gentleman whether, in the event of his not being able to give a favourable reply to the Question of the hon. Gentleman, the Government would endeavour to give him an opportunity for proceeding with his (Mr. Broadhurst's) Bill dealing with these leases, the second reading of which had been put down for Monday next? He believed that his Bill
  1924
  dealt with the subject in a thoroughly effective manner.
  MR. GLADSTONE: My hon. Friend has panegyrized his own Bill, and characterized it as thoroughly effective, and so far as I can understand, although I have not examined it minutely, I believe it fully deserves the description given. I am afraid I cannot make any pledge to sacrifice the time of the Government by considering the Bill at this period of the year. With regard to the Question put by the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drummond Wolff), in general I should answer a Question of this kind in regard to a pending Bill by saying it would be better to wait till we get into Committee on the Bill; but I do not think this will apply to the present Question, because the proposal of the hon. Member is really a proposal not to make amendment in the Bill, but to make a large extension of the scope of the Bill, so as to include another subject altogether. Without disparaging the importance of the subject raised by the Question, and without prejudging its merits, I must say I do not think, under any circumstances, it could be dealt with in a satisfactory manner in conjunction with the Agricultural Holdings Bill. The two subjects turn upon different considerations, if not upon different principles; and I do not think the question of the interest of leaseholders of houses in towns has ever been investigated, and brought into light and matured, in the same manner as the question of agricultural leases.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked if the right hon. Gentleman would have any objection to an inquiry, either by a Committee of the House or by Royal Commission, into the present system of ground leases in towns?
  MR. GLADSTONE: I would ask the hon. Member for Portsmouth to be kind enough to put that Question on the Notice Paper.

  THE CHANNEL ISLANDS FISHERIES.
  SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSasked the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Home Secretary, Whether he could give the House any further information as to the deputation which waited on him from the Channel Islands with regard to the small islands between Jersey and France, and whether the Government had come to any decision in the matter?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid, it was usual in matters where the Privy Council had to give an opinion that the question should be submitted to the Law Officers of the Crown. That course had been adopted in the present case, and he hoped it would be dealt with in a day or two.

PARLIAMENT—PUBLIC BUSINESS

  MINISTERIAL STATEMENT.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEasked the Prime Minister the course of Business for to-morrow and next week?
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, that tomorrow at 2 o'clock they proposed to proceed with Lords Alcester and Wolseley Annuities Bills. As he did not anticipate a wide debate on the subject, he hoped they would be able to proceed with the Committee on the Corrupt Practioes Bill afterwards. On Monday the Committee on the Corrupt Practices Bill would be continued.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEasked the President of the Local Government Board whether he could state the day and hour on which the further proceedings on the Ballot Act Continuance Bill would be taken? He was obliged to frame his Question in these terms, as he could not reconcile what took place in the last quarter of an hour on Tuesday's Morning Sitting with the repeated assurances that had been given by the right hon. Gentleman that he would only take the debate at an hour when there could be a substantial debate.
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, that when the House gave a Morning Sitting to the Government it was in order that it might proceed with Government measures. He did not know whether the right hon. Gentleman desired to make his speech on the subject a second time. They were anxious to proceed with the measure; but he could not gratify the curiosity of the right hon. Gentleman by stating the exact time when it would come on.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHasked whether the Committee on the Agricultural Holdings Bill was not to be taken until after the Corrupt Practices Bill?
  MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he should better be able to answer the Question when he had had a little experience of the Corrupt Practices Bill Committee.
  1926
  They desired to take that course which would soonest close the debates on both Bills.
  SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsubsequently inquired whether the Prime Minister would not consent to proceed with the Committee stage of the Agricultural Holdings Bill until it was completed, before taking the Committee stage of the Corrupt Practices Bill? It was highly inconvenient to have the Committees of two Bills proceeding at the same time.
  [No answer was given to this Question.]

  LAW AND POLICE—"INFERNAL MACHINES."
  MR. MACARTNEYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention had been directed to an article contained in the "Times" of yesterday and headed "Infernal Machines," extracted from an American newspaper called the "New York World," which gave a long and detailed description of a number of new and highly-destructive infernal machines stated to have been recently turned out in large quantities by a man name Holgate, in Philadelphia, and to have been exported for use in foreign countries; also to a statement made in the "Globe" of yesterday evening to the effect that the American Labour Reform League was about to commence operation immediately, its programme being as follows:—(1), That all accumulators of wealth shall be treated as robbers; (2), to pay no rent is the banner of duty all over the world; (3), all Czars, Queens, Presidents, landlords, railway directors, and bank monopolists are to be taken off by dynamite, dagger, or other means; and, whether Her Majesty's Government would take steps to ascertain through the British Minister at Washington the truth or falsehood of those very serious and threatening announcements?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Sir, I do not think I could, with any advantage, enter into the details of the matter to which the hon. Member has referred. All I can say with reference to menaces of this description is, that Her Majesty's Government are perfectly alive to the necessity of watching and paying attention to such matters.

  THE CENSUS RETURNS, 1881—THE CANAL POPULATION.
  MR. SALTasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether, from the Census Returns of 1881, or from any other source, he can state the number of men, women, and children living upon canal boats in the United Kingdom?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: A summary table at page 19 of the Census Report, vol. 2, shows that 8,978 persons —6,225 males and 2,753 females—were enumerated in barges, boats, &c, in harbours, rivers, creeks, and canals in England and Wales at the time of the Census in 1881. That is the only information we have on the subject at present. I fear there exists no machinery by which a Return could be obtained of the number of persons actually living on barges in canals.

  PUBLIC HEALTH-NAZARETH HOUSE, HAMMERSMITH—REPORT OF MR. SPEARS.
  MR. O'CONNOR POWERasked the President of the Local Government Board, When Mr. Spears's Report upon an inquiry, concerning Nazareth House, Hammersmith, would be printed; and whether Mr. Spears did not declare in the concluding portion of that Report that the sanitary condition and the management, so far as sanitary affairs were concerned, of the institution were excellent, and that the care habitually bestowed on the children was worthy of special consideration?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Yes, Sir. I believe those are the concluding words of the Report, which was ordered to be printed some time ago, and I wonder it is not already laid upon the Table of the House. I have no doubt that it will be in a day or two.

  EGYPT (MILITARY EXPEDITION)—MILITARY HOSPITALS IN CYPRUS.
  DR. CAMERONasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether it is true that in the original medical arrangements for the Egyptian campaign the establishment of a base hospital at Cyprus was proposed by the heads of the Army Medical Department, and agreed to by the military authorities; whether the military authorities afterwards decided that Cyprus should
  1928
  not be used for hospital purposes till the month of October; whose duty it was to inform the Director General of the Army Medical Department or principal medical officer in Egypt of this change in the medical arrangements; if he could state the date at which the alteration was decided on; and, the date at which the heads of the Army Medical Department, at home or in Egypt, were informed of it and instructed to make other arrangements for their base hospital?
  SIR ARTHUR HAYTER: Sir, the reply to my hon. Friend's first Question is—Yes. In the original arrangements for the campaign it was contemplated to establish a base hospital at Cyprus. In reply to the remaining four of my hon. Friend's Questions, I think I cannot do better than quote the words of the Report of the Committee of Inquiry, which gives the history of the arrangement made at Cyprus, in the shortest compass, and in official form, being already laid upon the Table of the House—
  "At first it was proposed to place this hospital at Troodos on Mount Olympus; but owing to the near approach of the cool season (when the troops would have to come down to the plains), and to the distance by road to Troodos, it was decided not to establish a hospital at that place for the few remaining weeks of the hot season, and a site in the neighbourhood of the camp at Polymedia was chosen instead, which it was intended to make use of at the beginning of October."
  The change—namely, from Troodos to Polymedia—was appoved on the 4th of August on the advice of the Chief of the Staff of the Egyptian Expedition, Sir John Adye, with the concurrence of the Director General of the Army Medical Department, Dr. Crawford, and the principal medical officer going out with the Force, Dr. Hanbury, who was in this country at the time. As these officers were parties to the decision taken on the 4th of August, it was not necessary to communicate it formally to them. That is the answer to Questions two, three, and four. With regard to the fifth Question, I have already given the date—namely, August 4, when the head of the Army Medical Department at home, Dr. Crawford, and Dr. Hanbury, the principal medical officer going out with the Expedition, were informed of the change, and when once the Expedition had started, it was for the Com-

  1929
  mander of the Expedition, in consultation with his Chief of the Staff and principal medical officer, to make any change in the hospital or any other arrangements which had originally been made, if the varying circumstances of the campaign rendered it desirable.
  DR. CAMRBONsaid, he did not think his hon. Friend had quite under stood the purport of the Question. In the Report of the Inquiry referred to Mr. Lawson asked the principal medical officer of the Army in Egypt whether he was aware that on the 4th August Cyprus had been abandoned as a base hospital, and Dr. Hanbury replied that, on the contrary, he was under the impression when he left London that Cyprus was to be his base. In the next Question he was asked if he had not orders that Cyprus was not to be used or relied on by him until the autumn, and Dr. Hanbury replied that that was the first time he ever heard of it; and further, on the 9th September——
  MR. SPEAKER: I must remind the hon. Member that he is not entitled to debate the matter, although he may put a Question arising out of the answer which he has received.
  LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: Will the hon. Baronet state to the House, as a positive fact, that Dr. Hanbury had the slightest idea before August 27 that Cyprus would not be used as a base hospital?
  SIR ARTHUR HAYTER: I think I have already stated that the two medical officers were present on the 4th of August, and were informed of the change which was necessitated by the variation of circumstances. The change was made by the General Commanding-in-Chief in consultation with the two medical officers.
  LORD RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: What was the date of that change?
  SIR ARTHUR HAYTERsaid, he must protest against being required to answer questions of detail which would properly be raised when the Vote was taken, and in the course of a full discussion. The whole story was contained in the Report laid upon the Table.
  MR. GORSTinquired whether a full discussion was necessary before a date could be given?
  SIR H.DRUMMOND WOLFFwished to know whether the change was made
  1930
  in consequence of instructions from the Secretary of State or the Commander of the Expedition?
  SIR ARTHUR HAYTERsaid, he thought that was a Question respecting an official matter which should not be answered in the House; but, at all events, he required Notice of the Question.

  PASSENGER AND EMIGRANT SHIPS—ALLEGED STARVATION OF EMIGRANTS.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORwished to ask the Chief Secretary for Ireland the Question which he promised to inquire into the other day—namely, Whether there was any truth in the statement that a number of Irish emigrants at North Adam, in Mass, were in a state of destitution?
  MR. TREVELYAN: I am glad, Sir, to be able to give the hon. Member the information he requires. I have here a telegram, dated June 6, 1883, from Consul Henderson, Boston, to Earl Granville, in these terms:—"Overseers of poor North Adams reply no truth in report in Standard."

  PARLIAMENT — THE HALF-PAST TWELVE O'CLOCK RULE (DROPPED ORDERS).
  MR. SPEAKER: With reference to the general desire expressed by the House on Tuesday last in relation to dropped Orders, I have to say that effect may properly be given to that desire by my directing, as a matter of procedure, that a dropped Order, when revived, will be subject to such Amendments as attached to it when dropped; and my direction will be given accordingly, unless it be the wish of the House to give other directions.
ORDERS OF THE DAY.
  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (CORRUPT AND ILLEGAL PRACTICES) BILL.— [BILL 7.]
  (Mr. Attorney General, Sir William Harcourt, Mr. Chamberlain, Sir Charles Dilke, Mr. Solicitor General.)
  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS (CORRUPT AND ILLEGAL PRACTICES) BILL.— [BILL 7.]

    COMMITTEE. [FIRST NIGHT.]
    Order for Committee read.
    MR. BROADHURST, in rising to move—

    1931
    "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert a new Clause in the Bill charging the returning officer's expenses at Parliamentary Elections upon the rates in boroughs and counties,"
    said, that that very proposal was before the House in the early period of last Session, on the Motion of the late lamented Member for Newcastle (Mr. Ashton Dilke) and, on a division, the Motion was carried by a majority of 2. He had no doubt that but for certain extraneous matter in Mr. Dilke's Resolution it would have been carried by a majority of 20 or 30. It was said that the proposal would be unpopular with the ratepayers. That might be true to some extent; but there were other considerations to be borne in mind than that of popularity. It was the duty of Parliament to do that which was right for the best interests of the nation as a whole. Now, was his proposal just and reasonable? If so, it ought to be adopted. There was no occasion for the ratepayers to be alarmed, as the charge would not exceed, for the year in which the election took place, one farthing, or probably not half a farthing in the pound. That charge, too, would only be incurred every few years, on the recurrence of an Election. It was a common complaint that many men who would make excellent Members of Parliament—he did not refer to working men exclusively or chiefly, but to others of only moderate fortune— could not contest a constituency on account of the expense. His proposal would enable such men to sit in the House. But it was not for that reason alone, or chiefly, that he made his proposal. It would never be possible to strike at the real root of electoral corruption and bribery until they had impressed upon the electors that men seeking their suffrages desired to discharge high and important duties to the country, and not self-advancement or the promotion of their personal interests. In almost every civilized country—in Austria-Hungary, France, Italy, Germany, and Denmark—the expenses of elections were cast either upon the constituency or national funds. He had been assured on good authority, that the effect of his proposal would reduce largely—probably by one-half—the Returning Officers' charges now defrayed by the candidate. Some hon. Members,
    1932
    he understood, were afraid that this proposal, if adopted, would open the door to an influx of candidates to every constituency. But the clause which he would propose would provide that every person becoming a candidate should doposit£100, and should he not poll one-sixth of the number of votes given to the successful candidate, he should forfeit the deposit-money; but that if he should obtain that proportion, the money would be returned to him. This, he thought, would be quite sufficient to prevent mere speculative people—what might be called "carpet-bag" politicians—from invading the various constituencies for the sake of publicity. Moreover, he believed that if these costs were placed upon the ratepayers they would themselves take good care not to have a lot of bogus candidates to unnecessarily increase the charge upon the rates. He was persuaded that by adopting his proposal more would be done to strike at our system of terrible extravagance in election expenses than by any process of penalties and punishments for people who were caught in the commission of illegal practices. He asked the House to agree to this Instruction with the more confidence, because, on former occasions, this proposal had been supported by several Members of Her Majesty's Government. In conclusion, he begged to move the Amendment of which he had given Notice.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That it be an Instruction to the Committee that they have power to insert a new Clause in the Bill charging the returning officer's expenses at Parliamentary Elections upon the rates in boroughs and counties."—(Mr. Broadhurst.)
    MR. GLADSTONE: I am friendly, Sir, and certainly most of the Members of the Government are friendly, to the principle contained in this Instruction; but I am bound to say that for reasons which I think my lion. Friend will himself appreciate, even if he cannot adopt them, I am unable to support the introduction of such a clause as he proposes in the present Bill. I agree with my hon. Friend in nearly all his arguments, and I make that admission freely, though it may seem to compromise the ground on which I stand in declining to vote for his Motion. I agree with him as to the

    1933
    bearing of this proposal on the admission of men who are not rich into the House, and on the higher ground of principle on which he bases his argument — namely, that to pay the expenses of the Returning Officer is in principle the affair of the local community and not of the individual. With these admissions my hon. Friend will naturally say to me—"Why do you object to introduce the proposal into the present Bill?" We cannot say that it is wholly alien to the purpose of the Corrupt Practices Bill; indeed, it appears to me to be well within the scope of the Bill. True, it is a large extension of the scope of the Bill, and that is shown by the fact that my hon. Friend does not move it as a clause in Committee, but has moved it as an Instruction to the Committee, and I presume he might have moved as an Instruction any proposition of which he was in favour, whether it related to corrupt practices as understood by the Bill or not. As, however, I admit that it is not so far from the purpose of the Bill as to make it appear per se improper, and as in truth I have myself on former occasions, when similar Bills were before the House, both spoken and voted in favour of the introduction of a similar proposal, I proceed to explain to my hon. Friend the reasons which lead me on this occasion to take a different course. My first argument against the expediency of agreeing to the hon. Member's proposal is one that certainly is not conclusive against it, although it somewhat detracts from the force of those considerations which the hon. Member has urged in its favour. It is true that by this measure it is intended to lighten to a considerable extent the load which has hitherto been improperly placed upon the shoulders of candidates. The main objection, however, that I have to accepting the hon. Member's proposal at the present time is that, from its nature and history, it is a polemical and controversial one, and that the Government feel that if they had intended to assent to the introduction of this clause into the Bill, they ought to have introduced it into the measure in the first instance. Her Majesty's Government have submitted the Bill to the House as being one not polemical and not controversial, and I rejoice to say that it has been accepted by the other side of the House in a corresponding spirit.
    1934
    The right hon. Gentleman the Member for South-West Lancashire (Sir R. Assheton Cross), acting I may say on behalf of the great bulk of his Party, has given a friendly reception to this Bill, and it has made a progress at this moment which it certainly would not have made had it contained this proposal. Had it contained this proposal the Bill would have been a matter of dispute, of contest, at every point in going through the House. My hon. Friend is perfectly in his right in endeavouring to bring the proposal into the Bill; but the Government would not be in their right if they introduced a Bill of this character as one apart from Party contest and the polemics of this House, and subsequently, on the Motion of a private Member, consented to what was not only an alteration of the Bill, but an alteration of a vital character. I think such a course would hardly be consistent with a strict and liberal understanding by the Government of its engagement to the House at large—because the engagement which we contract towards our own Party when we introduce a Bill, which is a matter of contest between Parties, we must recognize as binding on us with regard to the whole House—and especially when, in consequence of that engagement, we have been so fortunate as to be able to make good progress with a measure which in itself as it stands we believe will be a most valuable one, and one which promises to be of great benefit to the community at large, and which is so far divested of Party considerations as to receive the calm and judicial support of all sides. If my hon. Friend had raised this question in a separate Bill, I should have voted with him, as I have voted for the same proposal before; but, although I do not blame him for the proposal he has made, I feel that blame would attach to myself, as a friend of the proposition on its merits, were I to take advantage of the position which we have obtained for the Bill in the House, upon a different supposition, and upon a promise of a different measure, in order to introduce into it a proposal which distinctly alters its character. That I feel is in some degree a matter of faith with, the House, and when I look upon it as a matter of policy, I come to the same conclusion. Were we to be parties to the introduction of this proposal, in the

    1935
    first place, we should be liable to some sharp and not unjust reproaches from Gentlemen opposite; but, in the second place, I suspect that we should find that a change of course on our part was not at all favourable to the future progress of the Bill and to its passing through the different stages. We have before us a Bill of great value to the country, and that is admitted on both sides of the House. I believe Gentlemen opposite believe it is of special value to their own Friends. I am weak enough to believe it is of special value to our own Friends. But I do not wish to raise any question of this kind. We nearly all agree that the Bill in its main aim and purport is a valuable measure. Is it not wise, on the whole, to be content with that, and to avail ourselves of the opportunity of getting it through Committee as a measure which is to be argued judicially, and not in a polemical spirit? Is it not well to take that advantage, and rather to trust to other and separate and more legitimate opportunities of proposing the measure contemplated by this Instruction? I do not disparage the arguments of my hon. Friend, and I have no charge to make against him; but, under the circumstances, I must undoubtedly say, on the part of the Government, that we are not able to accede to the passing of this Instruction to the Committee.
    SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, that after the line which had been taken in reference to this subject by the right hon. Gentleman opposite, it would be out of place for him to attempt to enter into the merits of this Instruction. The points which were put by the Prime Minister seemed to be unanswerable It would have been regarded as something of the nature of a breach of faith if, after the Bill had been read a second time without this proposal, the Instruction had been accepted by the Government and allowed to be introduced into the Bill. He accepted the speech of the right hon. Gentleman as the conclusion of the Government against the acceptance of the Instruction. On the present occasion the House had nothing to do with any proposal for the introduction of a separate Bill. If such a measure were to be introduced, it would have to stand upon its own merits, and hon. Members would be free to express their opinions upon it, both by speech and
    1936
    vote, as they had done on former occasions.
    MR. T. P. O'CONNORsaid, that whenever a proposal like this had been brought before the House it had been regarded as a political one, and discussed with great interest. In a Parliament in which the present Prime Minister occupied the same position as he did now, a proposal similar to this would have been carried by the House, and would have formed a part of the law of the land, had it not been for the opposition given to it by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Home Secretary and the Attorney General. If this proposal was not the law of the land at present, the fault was due to the Leaders of the Liberal Party. The language of the Prime Minister to which they had just listened amounted to this—that he was afraid to face the House of Commons with this proposal, although personally in favour of it, because the effect of accepting it would be to delay the Bill for a certain length of time. That was the attitude taken up by the Prime Minister in spite of the incitements of the creatures of the Caucus to heroic resolves and courageous action in the House. It was to be suspected the Prime Minister was a good deal hampered by some of his enthusiastic admirers, who preached at him in this style with a virgin innocence characteristic of Provincial politicians. For himself, he believed the Bill as it stood would be inoperative so far as regarded changing the character of the Representatives of the House in the direction advocated by the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Broad-hurst). Just as in the case of the Legal Profession, an entrance fee of £100 was quite as insuperable an obstacle to many young men as a fee of £1,000 would be, so the Schedule of fees laid down in the Bill would be as effective an obstacle to the entrance of large numbers of men into political life as if the maximum were not £350, but £3,500. So far as that went, therefore, the Bill was a fraud and a pretence. With regard to the example of other countries, he might mention that when Prince Bismarck in fighting the Liberal Party in Prussia over the question of German military re-organization resorted to the expedient of constantly dissolving Parliament in the hope of exhausting the pecuniary resources of his opponents, an hon. Friend

    1937
    told him on the authority of a Prussian Liberal that Prince Bismarck to attain his object need only have dissolved once or twice if election expenses had been on the same vast scale as in England. After one or two elections the constituencies would have fallen into the hands of Conservative Members of larger means as well as more pliant wills. Now, did they not know that with certain exceptions in the case of Ireland the House of Commons was composed almost as much as ever of rich men? [Cries of "No, no!"] If the matter were gone into he believed he could show that since the reduction of the franchise fewer poor men had entered the House of Commons than before. The very largeness of the constituencies increased the expenses of the contest, and, therefore, made more narrow the portals of Parliament to men of small means. Some years ago, for example, there was a large number of Liberals in Lambeth who were bitterly dissatisfied with the representation of the borough as it then was; but the effective answer to these discontented ones, was that every vote in Lambeth cost £1. The existing Representatives were the only men who could afford to pay that price for the seats, and so the Liberal Party had to swallow them, whether they liked them or not. If the Government could not carry the Bill with this proposal it would be better to drop it, rather than carry through Parliament an ineffective measure. He therefore begged to say that if the hon. Member for Stoke's adhesion to the Government would not prevent him from going to a division, he (Mr. T. P. O'Connor) would be very glad to vote for the Motion.
    MR. BIGGARsaid, he was very much amused with the speech of the Prime Minister. The right hon. Gentleman said he was very desirous for a substantial reform; but he could not allow improvements to be made in the Bill, because they might not be acceptable to the Tory Party. Now, he never heard of a better course than the one suggested by the right hon. Gentleman for wasting the time of the House. The Prime Minister also said that this Motion should be introduced in the form of a second Bill, so that the Prime Minister's scheme for saving the time of the House would be to introduce two Bills, have fresh divisions on each, send them into Committee at
    1938
    different times, and then he supposed, when they were passed, have a third Bill to consolidate the two. In Ireland they had the experience of two systems. In Parliamentary elections the candidate had to pay the entire expenses of the relieving officer—[Laughter]—the Returning Officer—and in Municipal elections the expenses were borne by the ratepayers. In Parliamentary elections, also, the Sub-Sheriff always insisted on getting new ballot-boxes at every election, and the highest prices were charged for rooms, so that the candidate was obliged to pay several times more for these things than the real value supplied. The result was that such elections were a source of considerable emolument to the Sub-Sheriffs, and a means by which men seeking to represent constituences were fleeced in the most unfair manner. Now, he for one had more regard for the quality of legislation than the quantity of it, and he did not see what good there was in returning a Radical Party to power if they were only able to pass such measures as were acceptable to the Tory Party. For himself, he was very much in favour of the proposal of the hon. Member for Stoke. The Bill, if adopted in its present form, would by no means be a perfect one; and he, therefore, appealed to the Government to make it one of real reform by adopting the Motion of the hon. Member for Stoke. With this view he should himself support the Motion.
    MR. JESSE COLLINGSsaid, if the Bill was simply a Corrupt Practices Bill—a Bill directed against corrupt expenditure only—the argument of the Prime Minister against adopting the Motion of the hon. Member for Stoke would have been unanswerable. The Bill, however, was intended not only to do away with corrupt expenditure, but to lessen the general expenses connected with elections. That being so, it seemed a most reasonable thing, and quite pertinent to the Bill, to begin with an expense which met the candidate at the very threshold of his candidature. He hoped, therefore, that the hon. Member for Stoke would not withdraw his Motion, which he should support with pleasure.
    MR. T. D. SULLIVANsaid, that one of the objections of the Prime Minister to the Motion was that it would introduce Party considerations into the matter, and lead to Party contests. The

    1939
    right ton. Gentleman should have shown them how or whore the Motion would do this, for it appeared to him that the proposal had nothing whatever of a Party character in it, and that it would apply alike to all Parties. The objection that the Motion would lead to prolonged discussion on the whole matter in that House was a very poor one, for it should not be forgotten, that many of the best measures that had ever passed the House of Commons had been the subjects of prolonged and even excited discussion. Scarcely any measure of real reform had been granted without a great deal of discussion; and he took the fact that this proposal might lead to debate as a strong proof that there was merit in it. It had been said that Members on both sides of the House were agreed upon this Bill, and that it was very undesirable to interfere with the union that existed. But this union was one of rich men against poor men—a union of rich men to keep out of the House as long as they could other men who were less rich than themselves. He was strongly in favour of the Motion, which he hoped would be adopted.
    MR. LEWISsaid, he should have no hesitation in supporting the Motion, as he had done on previous occasions, believing the principle of it to be right and just. In his opinion, there was great analogy between the case of the election of Members of Parliament, and elections under the Municipal Corporations Act. The Mayor of a borough was obliged to find the conveniences and necessities for an election under that Act, because the duty was regarded as a public one, and he had never been able to understand what difference existed in the two cases. The question was not at all one as between rich men and poor men; the essential argument was this—that the officer whose duties were called in question was not an agent of, or employed by, the Parliamentary candidate, but a public officer of the constituency, performing a public duty, the cost of which ought, therefore, to be paid by the public. On that principle, and that principle only, he put the matter, and entirely disregarded any consideration whether the proposal would affect this or that Party. It would be quite another thing if it was proposed to pay anything outside the Returning Officer's expenses; but this was simply
    1940
    an elementary question whether a public officer performing a public duty should be paid by the public for doing it.
    MR. O'BRIENsaid, he thought the last speech ought to prove to the Prime Minister that there was no danger of this question being regarded as one of Party. It was the only proposal in connection with the matter that could meet with any acceptance in Ireland, because they were against the application of any part of the Bill, as it stood, to Ireland. The days when a constituency could be bought in Ireland one day to be sold out of it the next were gone, or nearly gone. As far as the people of Ireland were concerned, they had proved their willingness to pay not only the official, but the unofficial expenses of their Representatives, whom they regarded as their servants doing their business.
    MR. HEALYsaid, it was an extremely interesting spectacle for intelligent people to witness the House of Commons refusing to entertain the proposal of the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Broadhurst). The Bill before the House was intended to put down bribery. But he would ask, what were the reasons for the growth of bribery? Were they not these? That it had been hitherto a profitable thing to get into Parliament, a profitable thing to invest £2,000 or £3,000 in effecting that object. Why, any person examining that House would find it studded with legislative dummies, whose only title to be there, so far as he could make out, was that they were their fathers' sons, or had a balance at their bankers. They had representatives of the great reigning families in the House, because the great reigning families knew that if the men of the people got in there they would make the laws in a different way, and in a way which the great reigning families would not desire. He regarded the masses of the people of England as simply befooled by the pretence of liberty given of entrance to the House of Commons. Moreover, if the working men of England imagined that they were getting from that House the benefits of the Constitution, they were greatly mistaken. They were bound by invisible bonds, which prevented them from making those changes in the law which they wished to see carried out. The chief reason why the laws were not reformed speedier and better than at present was because the great bulk of the people of

    1941
    England were shut out from having any voice in the matter. Such a state of affairs could only be removed by a proposal such as that of the hon. Member for Stoke. Of course, the great reigning families and the great banking families desired to continue the present state of things. He had expected that the great Radical Party would be almost irruptive on this question; but what was his astonishment to find the cold chain of silence thrown over them all by the speech of the Prime Minister. It would seem to be that the Prime Minister, intoxicated with the great success with which he had carried the second reading of the Agricultural Holdings Bill—brought in because it was acceptable to the Tory Party—enamoured with that splendid success, could not think of accepting the proposal of the hon. Member for Stoke, because this Bill also was acceptable to the Tory Party. What had become of the combative disposition of the Prime Minister? Had that been the manner of his legislation hitherto, that his proposals were so diluted and watered down in spirit that the test to be applied to them was whether they were acceptable to the Tory Party? He congratulated the Tory Party upon being able to apply this standard to the future intentions of the Prime Minister; and when, in future, the Prime Minister wished to carry all the measures mentioned in the Queen's Speech, he had only to apply to the Leader of the Opposition, and ascertain whether he had any objection to his proposals. So far as Ireland was concerned, this Bill did not ameliorate the position of any candidate. There was no bribery or corruption in Ireland, practically speaking. ["Oh, oh!"] He would prove that, for in the course of the last nine years there were only four Election Petitions in Ireland, and in only one—an Ulster constituency—Dungannon—was it successful; and it was not bribery there, he believed, but they bottled up a candidate—[Laughter]—he meant the voters. That being so, why should Irish Members and Irish constituencies be placed under the extraordinary restrictions proposed by the Bill? The Irish people sent their Representatives to that House because they wanted to get changes made in the law, and they sent their Members there as their servants. The Irish Members did not come there to amuse themselves; they did not come there to assist at pub-
    1942
    lic dinners, or to attend the Queen's levees and her balls. But they came there to "slog" in the public interests. They came there to work on behalf of the people who sent them; and as for considering whether their proposals and speeches were agreeable to the Prime Minister or his Government, they did not care a single rush, and they believed that it was only by returning a certain class of men who would bring steady pressure to bear on the Government that the English working men would get the reforms they desired, and begin to see the whole character and office of the House. They knew very well that legislation was affected by the character of the House. They might reduce the question to a mathematical calculation, and say that the chances of a certain Bill in a certain direction with a House of Commons of which each Member on an average possessed £1,000 passing would be as 10, while the chance of a similar Bill with a House of Commons possessing each on an average £100 would be as 100. Take, for instance, the Employers' Liability Bill. The employers were in the House, the workmen were outside; and he should like to know how many Representatives the workmen had in the House when that Bill came before the House? It was not to be contended that if they reduced the expenditure they would not bring about a better class of Representatives on the whole. Why had hon. Gentlemen above the Gangway on his side of the House declined to accept a Resolution of that character? Simply because they wished to have their monied influence felt. He was convinced that they would never have thorough-going legislation until the constituencies were bound to pay the expenses of the candidates. The theory to which he had already adverted was that the House of Commons was open to every man. Yes, that was nominally the case, but in reality they found that it was only a certain class of men who were able to get into it. The story was told of a person saying the law was open to everybody. "Yes," said the person addressed, "and so is the London Tavern"—a swell restaurant in its day— meaning "if you are able to pay." In the same way the House of Commons was open to everybody if he was able to pay for it, and the same state of things would continue to exist until the constituents were obliged to pay the expenses of the

    1943
    elections. The idea that Members came there to work in the public interest was an exploded fallacy. There never was a greater mistake. The great majority came there to advance their own personal conveniences and concerns; and hence upon that account, until legislation was carried which would enable the humblest working man to put up against "my Lord Tom Noddy," and fight him upon even terms, the working men and the masses of the people of England would find that Membership of that House was a thing confined to a limited section, and that its legislation would be swayed and conducted by the interests of that limited section, and not by the interests of the people at large.
    MR. ILLINGWORTHsaid, he hoped the Amendment would be pressed to a division, because some Members in the House desired to appear before their constituents in a proper light. He wanted to know whether the great Conservative Party were prepared to stand before the constituencies as being in favour of extravagance, limiting the number of candidates available for seats, and anxious to maintain a barrier against the mass of people being represented by those in whom they had the greatest interest, and with whom they had the closest affinity? This was an opportunity for them to declare themselves upon the matter, because they had no special reasons such as that which seemed to affect the Government so much, for voting against their convictions in order to keep an undertaking with the other side of the House. He hoped there would be found Members on both sides who would not turn back against the opinions which they had expressed, over and over again, in favour of throwing on the constituencies the obligation to provide machinery under which candidates might freely present themselves for seats in Parliament. For his own part, he should have much pleasure in supporting the Motion.
    MR. MAYNEsaid, that if the Prime Minister had waited until he had seen that almost every Member who had addressed the House spoke in favour of the proposal, it might have affected the right hon. Gentleman's decision. One of the objects of the Bill of the Government was to lessen the expense of elections, and the proposal of the hon. Member for Stoke (Mr. Broadhurst)
    1944
    went in the same direction. He had had much to do with Municipal and Parliamentary elections in Ireland, and, limited as the Irish Municipal franchise was, he new wards in Dublin in which the constituents were twice as numerous as the constituents in some Irish boroughs; while the expense of the election in the wards did not amount to £ 1 in every £10 of the expense of Parliamentary elections in the boroughs. The Bill also imposed penalties of a very stringent character upon persons indulging in dishonourable practices at Parliamentary elections. He had been concerned in Parliamentary elections in Ireland where he might almost say he felt disgust at the imposition practised upon candidates by gentlemen in the respectable position of Returning Officers; and if this Bill should become operative, as he hoped it would, probably the only gentleman remaining to be dealt with in the constituency by penal clauses would be those who occupied that responsible position. The proposal of the hon. Gentleman dealt with that person now, and he would cordially support it.
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes 80; Noes 247: Majority 167.—(Div. List, No. 118.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
    MR. LEWIS, in whose name the following Notice appeared upon the Paper, to move:—
    "That this House is of opinion that the course proposed, of limiting the amount of lawful expenditure by candidates for seats in this House, and then restricting, by odious and heavy penalties, the mode of such expenditure in matters not essentially improper, is inexpedient and unjust,"
    said, that he did not know that he should have troubled the House with any remarks if it had not been for the observations of the Attorney General on the debate on Monday night, and the imperfect view he had presented to the House of the speech he (Mr. Lewis) had made with respect to the Corrupt Practices Bill. The hon. and learned Gentleman had placed him before the public as the representative of electioneering agents, and had distinctly

    1945
    stated that he advocated the cause of bribery. That was certainly very unfair and unjust of the Attorney General, who was as sharp-witted as any Member of the House in apprehending the purport of an opponent's speech. The whole object of his (Mr. Lewis's) speech, on the occasion to which he referred, was to show that the Bill would press hardly upon candidates, and he had not referred to its effect upon electioneering agents. But, because incidentally he stated that if the Bill were to pass into law, candidates would find it necessary to employ more professional assistance than they did at present, the Attorney General thought fit to say he was taking a professional view of the question. In fact, instead of wishing to encourage the practice of resorting to professional assistance, he desired to lessen the number of pitfalls to which a candidate would be exposed by this Bill, and thus to diminish the demand for professional intervention. He appealed to the House as to whether the Attorney General ever attempted in the least to answer the objections he had ventured to urge against his Bill? He contented himself rather with dealing with arguments against the Bill as a whole; but all he condescended to say with reference to the ridiculous anomalies and results following the operation of this Bill was that he would not follow him (Mr. Lewis) through all the details of his speech. The Attorney General had made much of the cheapness of the election proceedings in Hackney; but he would remind the hon. and learned Member that only 64 per cent of that constituency were polled at the election to which he had drawn attention. His (Mr. Lewis's) object on the present occasion was to draw the attention of the House and the country to the specific proposition which he had put upon the Paper, though he did not purpose to ask the House to divide upon it. It affirmed that, inasmuch as the Bill limited the expenses of elections to a very narrow amount, it was most unfair and improper to accompany that provision with others which made particular expenditure penal where no impropriety was actually committed. If a candidate were told that he must not spend more than £350, what was the use of telling him that he must not spend so much in the hiring of messengers and clerks, and in the purchase of ribbon?
    1946
    The very limiting of the amount was sufficient, and it was quite unnecessary to inform him that he must not spend money on one thing or another. The pitfalls in the Bill were of a most serious character; and, as far as the Attorney General was concerned, he did not propose to remove them in any sense of the word, but in a most irregular manner complained that he (Mr. Lewis) had given no definition of the Law of Agency. But whose duty was it to define the law if not that of the Attorney General himself? That law was, however, very strongly bound up in the Motion he had before the House at the present time. The Prime Minister seemed to have derived, from perusing the debate on the second reading of the Bill, the impression that there was no vital difference between the two Front Benches with regard to it. There were vital differences on many questions, such as those raised by the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton) and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. E. Stanhope). Nearly every Member of the House had experience of the manner in which his seat was endangered by the foolish conduct of those whom he had begged not to do certain things. Was there any remedy in the Bill for the Member whose conduct might have been prudent and lawful, but who was unseated for some petty act of folly on the part of his agent? From the commencement to the end there was no reasonable, moderate, or considerate provision to that effect. On the contrary, the supposed offences of a candidate were pursued with unrelenting severity; in fact, the Bill was drawn upon the severest possible lines. His object in making these observations was to draw attention to the extraordinary way in which a supposed offence on the part of a candidate was dealt with. In a borough limited by this Bill to the expense of £400, what could it matter, if the candidate kept his expenses to that amount, whether he had 30 clerks instead of 20, or 20 committee rooms instead of 19, or as many messengers as he could afford; but, according to the Bill, these trifling differences would upset the election. If a candidate was allowed to spend £400, and did not exceed that sum, yet if he had 30 clerks instead of 25, or 20 instead of 19 committee-rooms, his election was upset.
    MR. SPEAKERsaid, the hon. Member appeared to be going through the Bill clause by clause. That he was not entitled to do, for that was the function of the Committee.
    MR. LEWISsaid, he would submit to the judgment of the Chair, and eon-tent himself with the illustrations he had given. He wished, however, to draw attention to this result of the Bill, Even if the very limited expenditure allowed was adhered to in the letter as well as in the spirit, yet should the candidate spend it in a different manner to that provided by the Bill, it involved the loss of his seat. He (Mr. Lewis) was, however, glad to see that already there were many Amendments on the Paper on the first 12 clauses of the Bill, and he believed they would have a lively time of it in Committee. The Attorney General, instead of answering the criticisms on the Bill, had contented himself with eloquent vapouring with respect to purity of election. When the Attorney General described his speech against the second reading as being in favour of bribery, he took a liberty for which there was no justification. He did not think that the hon. and learned Gentleman believed it when he alleged that he was taking the part of a class outside the House on this question. The Attorney General knew that to all these matters he had given close and accurate attention, and he thought, therefore, that it was a subject in which he was entitled to speak without having it thrown in his face that he was the representative of any class or interest. Many observations which had been made were entitled to the most careful consideration; but, instead of answering them, the Attorney General had chosen to cast the slur upon him that he was supporting bribery. That was a great liberty for the Attorney General to take, and the statement was altogether unfounded. As the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) desired an opportunity to bring forward his Motion, he would not detain the House further; but he felt bound to make these few remarks as a protest against the speech of the Attorney General.
    MR. PARNELLsaid, he was much obliged to the hon. Member for Londonderry for the opportunity he had afforded him of bringing forward the Amendment which stood in his name, the
    1948
    adoption of which by the House would enable Irish Members to withdraw from the discussion of the Bill. The Bill had been introduced for the purpose of meeting a state of affairs existing in some of the constituencies of England which had not existed in Ireland since the passing of the Ballot Act. Before the passing of that Act probably some Irish constituencies were as corrupt as any in this country. But that Act, insuring as it did the secrecy of voting, had protected the voter from intimidation, whether at the hands of his landlord or the clergy. Notwithstanding this, the Irish constituencies were now to be put under this most stringent Act, beset as it was with dangers to candidates, because many English constituencies had proved themselves to be corrupt. There was no more reason to include Ireland in this exceptionally severe Bill, directed against a special evil in England, than there was to place England under the provisions of the Crimes Act of last year, which was alleged to have been passed by Parliament to meet an exceptional state of affairs in Ireland. Since the Ballot Act they had had only four Election Petitions in Ireland, and only in the case of the present hon. Member for Tyrone, who was unseated for Dun-gar van, was any of them successful. That was primâ facie a very fair claim why the request they made—that the provisions of the Bill should not extend to Ireland—should be granted; and he should be only too glad if the result of the consideration of his Amendment by the House should be that the Irish Members would find themselves in a position to leave English Members to discuss by themselves the provisions of this very complicated Bill. If, however, this Bill was to apply to Ireland, it was absolutely necessary that some safeguards should be inserted in Committee. For his own part, he did not desire to undertake the difficult duty of wading through the Bill in Committee, and of endeavouring to hedge it round with safeguards. The measure had been brought in to meet two evils—first, the increase in corrupt practices on the part of the constituencies and some of their candidates; and, secondly, the alarming and very great height to which election expenses had risen in election contests throughout England. Neither of those two circumstances applied to Ireland.

    1949
    Corrupt practices did not exist in Irish constituencies. Practically speaking, in any contest for a popular constituency in Ireland the popular candidate could obtain his return for an expenditure very little exceeding, if at all exceeding, the sum charged by the Returning Officer and the hotel expenses of the candidate. He himself was returned for three large constituencies at the last General Election, without any expense whatever except the Sheriff's costs. They had established that principle now throughout Ireland; and everywhere the electors and people were beginning to recognize thoroughly that it was to their interest to prevent the imposition of the excessive charges upon candidates which were so usual in past times, when elections were managed by local magnates and wire-pullers, and that if they expected good service from their Member they must see that he was not unfairly mulcted. These were the lessons that they had endeavoured to inculcate upon the Irish constituencies, and he was glad to say that without any Act of Parliament or repressive legislation they had succeeded so far. It was, then, in the face of the absolute purity of election that prevailed in Ireland that the Government came with this formidable Bill, bristling with spikes and pitfalls of all kinds, against dishonest candidates. The objections of the Irish Members were few but important. In the first place, they said that the Common Law construction of corruption and undue influence was liable to be abused by Irish Judges, and, in the event of such abuse, high penalties would be inflicted without mercy on Irish candidates. He need only refer as instances to the notorious judgments of Justices Keogh and Lawson on the Galway Petition; and it was the fact that Irish Judges in time past had brought to the discharge of their duties in trying Election Petitions a political partizanship which did not appertain to the Judicial character. Candidates should not be submitted to the very great risks which this Bill would undoubtedly entail upon them of being driven from the constituencies which they had been in the habit of representing. Again, this Bill, so far from diminishing election expenses in Ireland, would increase them, for it would be impossible to conduct elections without election agents. In Ireland, they
    1950
    had hitherto dispensed with election agents; but this Bill directed that each candidate should have an election agent. There, at the start, was an expense of £100 upon candidates who from their position were not able to bear any expense which could be avoided. Moreover, there would follow the necessity of employing trained agents in the polling districts, who might be solicitors or other lawyers, to insure that the provisions of the Act were not broken or transgressed. Trying the question by the unanimous wishes of the Irish Members on both sides of the House, and by the almost unanimous expressions of opinion against the Bill, he ventured to assert that there was no occasion for including Ireland in its provisions. It was a measure to meet certain evils that were peculiar to English constituencies alone. Parliament had, therefore, no right to enforce it upon the Irish constituencies, and thus to increase the difficulties of sustaining a popular representation. He begged to move the Amendment which stood in his name.
    Amendment proposed,
    To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the opinion of this House, the question of Corrupt and Illegal Practices at Parliamentary Elections in Ireland should be reserved for separate consideration,"—(Mr. Parnell,)
    —instead thereof.
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.
    MR. GIBSONsaid, that the speech of the hon. Member for the City of Cork, and the Amendment which he moved, were alike remarkable. They had always hitherto had in substance the same electoral arrangements existing in the two countries, the same legal definitions of what were corrupt and illegal practices, and the same results of an infringement of an election law; but now it was proposed to leave Ireland under the old system, and to hand over the debased country of England to a harder and more severe system, to fresh definitions of illegal practices, and to different modes of payment of election expenses. It would, in his opinion, be to the last degree inconvenient and undesirable to have an absolutely different electoral law applicable to England and to Ireland. He failed to see one single argu-

    1951
    ment which could cause the Amendment of the hon. Member to commend itself to his judgment. It might be that in Ireland during recent years there had not been much occasion for resort to electoral law; it might be that there had not been much of corrupt and illegal practices; but that might also be the case in many parts of England, Wales, and Scotland. These practices only existed in a very few boroughs and counties, for the majority of the counties in England, Wales, and Scotland were not corrupt; yet it was deemed desirable, in the interests of the electoral laws generally, by those who proposed this Bill, to make new arrangements, not only with regard to portions of the country which had been open to suspicion, but also with regard to those which had been pure. The case of the hon. Member for the City of Cork was that Ireland need not be included, because in those counties where the hon. Gentleman and his Friends were elected there was no necessity for the Bill. If that was so, how could it work any injustice to the hon. Member or his Friends that such a reasonable reform should be instituted in other counties and districts which were not amenable to these beneficent influences? The only two other principal points to which the speech of the hon. Member was directed were those of undue influence and election agents. With regard to the first, he could not call to mind that there was anything whatever in the Bill that would interfere with the old law as to undue influence; and, therefore, the first of those argumenss was outside the question. As to the other point, as he read the Bill, it seemed that every candidate must have an election agent. He thought the hon. Member's objection to that well worthy of consideration. An election agent need not in all cases be necessary, and, that being so, if an Amendment were moved in Committee on that point, he should be disposed to support it. He regretted that the hon. Member for the City of Cork should have seen fit to go back and repeat the old attacks upon the Irish Judges. One of the Judges to whom he had referred was dead, and the other still living. He had the honour to know all the Judges, and he believed them to be able, upright, and impartial, and that they were thought to be so by those whose confidence and respect they
    1952
    sought to obtain. He could not hear the remarks of the hon. Member without standing up in defence of those gentlemen whom he had had for some time the honour of knowing. If the Bill was good for England, it was good for Ireland, and, therefore, he hoped the Amendment would not be accepted by the House.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I will endeavour, Sir, to follow the example of the hon. Member for the City of Cork, and the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, in being brief on this occasion, as the question is a very narrow one, and it is very easy indeed to advert to the points which have been raised. Now, Sir, it is almost impossible for the hon. Member for the City of Cork, and must be quite impossible for the House, to accede to the proposition that Ireland should be exempted from a Bill not denied to be salutary in England on the ground that the Irish Judges cannot be trusted with its administration. If the Government from time to time appoint to the Bench in Ireland gentlemen whose integrity and judicial impartiality cannot be trusted, that is a subject which manifestly applies to every law which they are called upon to administer, and not to matters relating to elections only. I, of course, do not accept the statements of the hon. Member; but from his own point of view I think he must see it is impossible to consider that as a reason why we should not have the Law of Elections in Ireland as regards corrupt practices in the best possible condition. Now, Sir, the hon. Gentleman will, I think, see that the exclusion of Ireland from this Bill makes it a stigma upon England and Scotland. It is not to be expected of this House of Commons, which mainly represents England and Scotland, and having the preponderance of opinion, that we should be prepared to accept a proposition founded upon principles involving that result. But, Sir, there is one statement of the hon. Member for the City of Cork to which I think I may confidently appeal as invalidating entirely the ground upon which he has made this Motion, even if considered from his own point of view in every other respect. The right hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Gibson) had already adverted to and made use of his argument, that he and his Friends will suffer no injury from this Bill. Let

    1953
    me look at the matter from another point of view. The hon. Member for the City of Cork said—"I object to your Bill; I object to the inclusion of Ireland in your Bill." And why? Because all elections in Ireland are pure? Because all election practices in Ireland are pure? Because the burden of enormous expenses does not attach to Irish elections? Is that his ground? No, Sir; that is not his ground. His ground is that to one portion of the candidates in Ireland this flattering description applies. Well, Sir, I must say it is highly honourable to the hon. Gentleman, and highly honourable to his Friends, if they can manage their elections on these principles. I am bound to say, in candour and in honesty, that although, to some extent, there appear to be a considerable number of instances in which these Gentlemen do not comply with the law by making Returns of their expenses, yet, looking at the Returns which have been made, they do, to a considerable extent, bear out the statement of the hon. Member. But surely he cannot possibly say, taking it upon his own showing, that because for one portion of the candidates in Ireland elections are cheap, and in the sense of which we are now speaking are pure, that therefore Ireland is to be altogether excluded from this Bill. The logical bearing of his argument is this—that he and all his Friends ought to be excluded from the operation of the Bill; but that all the other candidates in Ireland not connected with him or his Party ought to be brought within its operation. I have had recently brought to my notice the case of two counties in Ireland, one of which spent £4,000, and another has already paid £6,000, but has not yet settled its account. Another county, which is not a large county—with about 5,000 electors—spent £10,000 for a single candidate. Surely, that is a case which calls for the application of this Bill. How can the hon. Gentleman, rising in his place, or any Friend of his—if I grant the whole of his statements in the whole breadth of their application to himself and to the different candidates who are in the sacred band which he leads—deny to these other Gentlemen who have to pay £4,000, £6,000, and £10,000 for a seat the application of a Bill which he admits to be beneficial in England and Scotland? If the hon. Gentleman has made
    1954
    this Motion for the purpose of paying a tribute—which he is entitled, perhaps, to claim—to himself and those with whom he is associated, yet there is no reason why he should either inflict a stigma upon England and Scotland, or inflict a hardship upon candidates not associated with himself in Ireland by dooming them to pay these heavy, and, in many cases, these intolerable and scandalous expenses, which are now the great disgrace of many English constituencies.
    MR. SEXTONsaid, the Prime Minister had spoken with more than his usual frankness; but he (Mr. Sexton) considered that it was rather hard upon the people of Ireland that because the conduct of constituencies in England and Scotland at elections was bad they should be harassed and annoyed by a Bill of this description. The sole reason for this Bill was the conduct of English and Scotch candidates and constituencies. They knew, from repeated Commissions of Inquiry and the contents of Blue Books, that there were large constituencies where the average voter was willing to sell his vote for a shilling or a pot of beer; and they had to complain bitterly, on the part of the people of Ireland, that a country which had retained purity of election should be exposed to a Bill of this kind, which would impose expense upon popular candidates because of the conduct of the people of England and Scotland. The Prime Minister had referred to one county, which he had not named, in which the expense of the candidate was £10,000. He was at a loss to know what county that could be. It was suggested to him that the expense was incurred in the county of Londonderry. They, however, knew that the right hon. and learned Gentleman who represented that county came from the North, and with that prudence which was characteristic of the North he was careful of the expenditure, while he was lavish with political promises. It was very hard upon Members of the Irish Party who had done faithful service to the people, and had not sought for themselves any political or financial advantages, that they should be subjected to a Bill which would impose upon them at election time officials whom they never employed before. The hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) had informed them that he was returned for three different contested constituencies

    1955
    at the last election without any material expense. In his own small experience something of the same kind occurred; indeed, it was impossible for him to incur any legal expenses in his election, for the two other candidates had bought up every attorney and attorney's clerk in the place. He then dispensed with an election agent; but he supposed, if the present Bill passed, he would be compelled to employ one. [Mr. GLADSTONE: No!] The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson) had spoken highly of the Irish Judges. They knew that lawyers were neither the most chivalrous nor Quixotic in the world; but he confessed that he realized the sophistication of life when he heard a learned Gentleman who had been an Attorney-General, and would be a Judge, get up and vouch, in pathetic tones, for the purity of the Irish Judges, saying that he knew them, and they were his friends. They knew them too. It was true they had not the same acquaintance with them as the right hon. and learned Gentleman, and if they had they would not be proud of it. One of the first acts of the late Attorney General for Ireland was to make his election agent at Mallow Registrar of his Court; and that was the sort of political purity which prevailed, and had prevailed for a long time past, in that borough. Mallow, for scores of years, had been the political hotbed in which claimants to the Judicial Bench were reared. Upon its roll of voters there were not more than 250 names, and for the last 15 or 20 years it had been regularly debauched by future Irish Judges. He could name 20 or 30 persons from the borough who had received public offices. [Sir. GLADSTONE: Hear, hear!] The Prime Minister seemed to think that an argument in favour of this Bill; but they had disposed of his Solicitor General, and had taught the whole hungry tribe of Irish lawyers it was no use to come there any more, and they had elected his hon. Friend (Mr. O'Brien) and purified the borough of Mallow without the aid of this Bill. They had taught the smaller electors, who depended upon the Party favours of the lawyers, that their interests depended upon purity of election. He objected extremely to the Bill because it subjected to the same punishment criminal acts and acts of a very different
    1956
    class; and he must own with shame, though the shame was not his but theirs, that he would not object to it so strongly if its administration were to be intrusted to English instead of Irish Judges. Everyone understood what was meant by bribery, or personation, or treating; but why was undue influence placed in the same category? He was very much afraid that when the offence of undue influence came to be tried by Irish Judges they would not forget that they were promoted politicians; they would bow to the Whig or Tory interest, according to the side they had taken, or, at any rate, would be adverse to the popular candidate. But what would amount to undue influence? An exhortation to "vote for Porter and fair rents?" It was not sufficient to say that it must be an offence recognized by the law of Parliament—that was, Statute Law or the Common Law—for whenever they had pressed the Attorney General on any legal point for which he was unable to find the authority of a Statute he always took refuge in the Common Law, and in that midnight darkness it was impossible to follow him. It would be difficult indeed for an Irish candidate to assure himself from fine and disability if such an undefined offence as undue influence were left to the interpretation of the Judges. For these reasons the case of Ireland should be reserved for separate consideration. He agreed with the second reading of the Bill, and was quite as anxious as anyone to limit and abolish everything that interfered with freedom and purity of election; but he objected to having disabilities placed upon their country on account of the political sins of others.
    MR. HEALYsaid, when this Bill was debated last year they had a distinct promise that the objection of the Irish Members would be modified by having two Judges instead of one. Was that promise to be fulfilled?
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: I have no right to speak for the Attorney General; but that is my view of the matter.
    MR. HEALY: Were they to understand that they were to have two Judges? ["Yes!"] He was very glad to hear that. He did not object to the Bill as a whole; but he objected to various provisions which it contained. The Irish Members demanded legislation, and they were refused it. They did not demand

    1957
    this legislation, and therefore it was thrust upon them. That seemed to be the usual attitude of the British Legislature. Why should they not be consulted on this matter? The Prime Minister told them that this was not a Party question; but if they consulted the Front Bench opposite, why did they not also consult the Irish Members and meet their objections? The Prime Minister thought he made a tremendous point when he said that even if the Parnellites had not much expense, that was no reason why other candidates should have to pay large amounts. The right hon. Gentleman was needlessly solicitous, because in a very short time the great bulk of the Irish Representatives would be returned under the flag of his hon. Friend. What was the attitude of the Irish people towards the House? They regarded the House as a legislative smithy, where certain work was to be done, and they sent certain people to do it. What was the position of England? It was a country where men sold their votes for a pint of beer. The Irish people did not do that; but because the English were sinful the Irish were to have no more cakes and ale. Irish candidates would have to study the Schedule and every detail of this Bill with microscopic care. At present he could go down to a constituency and get a gentleman to nominate him, hand in his paper, and, presto! the thing was done. Under the Bill he would require to have an agent and sub-agents, make contracts through them, and so on through the miserable litany of the Bill. This was intolerable. If he failed in any one particular, some Mr. Justice Porter would come down upon him and inflict these penalties of fine and disqualification. What could be a more shameful thing than to sell a vote? The man who would it he would have scourged. But they put him upon the same footing as the man who made a speech that a Judge might consider intimidation. Undue influence would be what intimidation was to the Resident Magistrates under the Grimes Act; and intimidation was to the Resident Magistrates whatever the Government disliked. He objected to the public conscience of Ireland being regulated by the British barometer. He did not care a pin whether he was in the House or not; but if the constituents desired Members of a certain type they should not be de-
    1958
    barred from sending them. Then the Irish Judges were wholly unfit to try political offences — though he did not deny that there were some of them who would endeavour to act impartially; but there were others he would not trust on any conceivable subject in which politics or passion could enter. They asked that the offences should be defined; and the difficulty as to undue influence might be met by its being defined as threats; but no candidate should be responsible for any threats uttered by anyone who was not a paid agent. He would not object to having political offences tried by English Judges, who would be welcomed in Ireland, and would not require police protection; and the Irish Judges, who were over-paid and underworked, might be sent over hero. They certainly could not be trusted to decide on questions of undue influence. When his hon. Friend (Mr. O'Brien) was victorious over Mr. Naish, the Solicitor General for Ireland, it was suggested that one of the speeches in favour of his hon. Friend was a case of undue influence, and that a Petition might be presented against his return. But Mr. Naish answered—"If you put him out, they would immediately elect another ruffian just as bad." He appreciated the philosophy of Mr. Naish; but it should not depend upon the prejudice of any single Judge whether or not the penalties of such a Bill should be enforced. If the Bill were to be applied to Ireland, a very different scale would have to be applied to Irish voters than was contained in the Bill; and he would, therefore, support his hon. Friend the Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell).
    MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYsaid, he thought the arguments used and the speeches made by hon. Members who sat near him deserved some reply from the Government, although he was quite sure that no effective answer could be given to any of them. He did not disapprove of the Bill as applied to England; and he was in favour of the most stringent action being taken against corruption, treating, and intimidation. The question of undue influence was, however, not defined, and until it was defined the door was left open for very unjust charges and sentences. As an instance of this, he might mention that in the celebrated Irish case of the Petition from the County of Galway undue in-

    1959
    fluence was interpreted by the Judge to include the use of any arguments employed by the Catholic clergy to the effect that a man might, by voting against his conscience, imperil his salvation. That was held to be intimidation in a spiritual sense. It would, in his opinion, be unjust to extend all the provisions of the present Bill to Ireland, where the Judges were, in many instances, political partizans. It was by a strange perversity that the Prime Minister and the right lion, and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson) had used almost the same arguments about the necessity of making the law the same in England and Ireland, when Irish Members had been told over and again, when pleading for an assimilation of the law in Ireland to that of England, that the condition of the two countries was entirely different, and that they must be content under the law as it existed. The Prime Minister had seemed to think that the great objection of the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) to the Bill was that some of the Irish Judges were thought to be unfair. His hon. Friend had, however, contended that the Bill was one which, in any case, Ireland did not want, because it was framed to deal with a state of things which in that country did not exist. Practically speaking, there was no bribery and no corruption in Ireland. He was aware, indeed, that there were certain small boroughs where bribery and corruption in various forms still existed; but he contended that every successive election had been purging even those small boroughs of bribery and corruption. If time and education were allowed to do their work, there would soon be no trace of bribery and corruption in any of the small Irish boroughs. In the last 12 months they had cleared out one of them, and never again would the borough of Mallow be given over to corruption. In the county constituencies in Ireland there was no thought or idea now of bribery or corruption at all. A candidate might be elected at a very small expense, even for a large county and after a sharp contest. Under such conditions, what want was there of a measure so stringent as that now under discussion? With regard to the Irish Judges, he did not believe that, as a rule, they were not upright men. He
    1960
    believed the great majority of them were upright men; but it was well known that Irish Judges were very often, if not always, chosen as political partizans, and that they retained on the Bench of Justice the feelings and the sentiments which had raised them to it. The late Judge Keogh was a remarkable example of this, and his judgment in the case of the famous Galway Petition had not yet been forgotten. He did not like to say anything about a man who was dead; but there were many men in the House who knew what were the charges against the political and judicial career of that Judge, whose appointment had been a scandal, and seemed like a gross practical joke at the expense of the whole judicial system. Even supposing that the imputations made against some of the Judges were wholly unfounded, it was not an advantageous thing to have Election Petitions tried by men in whose impartiality no one in the country believed. He did not assume that the popular feeling against the Judges as a body was justified by facts; but it existed, and had to be taken into account. As regarded intimidation, that offence had almost altogether ceased to exist in Ireland. There had, no doubt, once been intimidation—intimidation exercised by the landlord over the tenant—and to cope with that had sprung up the intimidation of the populace. The ballot had done a good deal to prevent intimidation, and, together with the Land Law Act of the present Government, had done much to relieve the tenant from any fear of oppression on the part of his landlord. Intimidation, as an offence, had therefore almost entirely ceased in Ireland, and he believed that the condition of things would go on improving from year to year. The Bill, however useful for England it might be, was entirely unnecessary for Ireland, and would only tend to intensify the feeling against the Judicial Bench in Ireland. Lastly, though this was by no means an argument on which he wished to lean too heavily, the Government might recollect that the acceptance of the Amendment of the hon. Member for the City of Cork would greatly facilitate the passing of their measure. He would, therefore, strongly urge the Government, for their own sake, to agree to the Amendment, and to detach Ireland altogether from the scope of the Bill.
    THE ATTOKNEY-GENEBAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PORIER)said, that the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) rested his Motion on the ground that election offences, such as bribery and undue influence, were practically unknown in Ireland, and that the electoral purity of the country was such that the Bill would be all but inoperative. If that were so, there could be no conceivable objection to the Bill, which, whatever its faults might be, could not by any possibility do any harm. Many forms of crime—wife-beating, for example—were extremely rare in Ireland; but that was no reason why the law should not forbid them. The hon. Member for the City of Cork must have regarded with mingled surprise and apprehension the line of argument of one of his Colleagues, who had stated that the borough of Mallow had been for a series of years thoroughly and utterly debauched. Probably that was not literally true of the borough; but small boroughs, whether; in Ireland or in England, were very much, alike, and there was no obvious reason why they should not be all treated in the same manner. The hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy) had argued not against an extension of the English law, but against the application to Ireland of certain provisions of the Bill, and had dwelt very sensibly on the difficulty of defining the offence of undue influence. The difficulty was, no doubt, considerable; but it was not novel, and the present Bill could not in any substantial degree alter the existing definition. It was important to bear in mind, as an argument for assimilating the law of England and Ireland, that if the two countries had different laws on this important point, the Irish Judges would not be able to avail themselves of the definitions laid down by their English brethren. Reference had been made, he was sorry to say, to the conduct of some of the Irish Judges; and he almost despaired of ever inducing hon. Members opposite to desist from that course. He felt that the Judges needed no defence; but he was bound to ask hon. Members opposite to consider whether this practice should not be discontinued except in case of necessity. Neither the hon. Member for Longford nor the hon. Member for Wexford had included all the Judges in their denunciations; but the belief in the unfairness of the
    1962
    whole Bench was kept alive by the frequency of the allusions made to it in the House. The Judges, as public servants, were, no doubt, responsible for their conduct to Parliament; but no light charge ought to be made against them in Parliament for the reason that there was a proper and legitimate mode of testing the conduct of a Judge, and it was only proper that he should have an opportunity of defending himself. If it could be shown that any one among the Irish Judges was open to the observations that had been made in general terms, then he said that Judge was not fit to be upon the Bench, and the proper course would be to bring to the proof the allegations here made. It was impossible to grapple with mere generalities and statements, regarding which no facts were given. He did not ask the House to believe he was unprejudiced in the matter; but he did ask those who were influenced by expressions of opinion in that House to believe that they were not supported by any body of men outside the House who had any competent means of forming an opinion; and, notwithstanding all that was done to weaken their influence, the Judges occupied their right position in the public mind. As regarded political matters, he did not think that that objection could be seriously urged. The Irish Judges, like other Judges, were taken from different sections of the community, and some were hasty and some were not, and these differences must be looked for so long as men were men; but so far from their appointments being political, three Judges out of the last four never had seats in that House at all, and the fourth, the hon. Member for Wexford himself, said he would entirely trust as regarded his impartiality. As regarded their fitness to try Election Petitions, they must remember that they already tried them; and when, at the hon. Member's request, two Judges had been substituted for one, he thought it unreasonable that any further objections should be made. Even though hon. Members opposite might not have spent any large sums of money on their elections, they must remember that there were other Members not in the same happy category, and there could be no doubt that the legitimate expenses of candidates were largely in excess of the amount which might reasonably be al-

    1963
    lowed. Some other matters had been referred to. He did not complain of the allusions to himself; but he could only say that if there was anything in the way of undue influence or of bribery in the placards, "Porter and fair rent"—anything which was open to question—it would seem that the stricter and more definite they made the law the better for hon. Gentlemen opposite. He could assure those hon. Gentlemen that any Amendments they might suggest would receive attention in Committee; but it would be monstrous not to have one uniform system governing elections in England and Ireland.
    MR. DAWSONsaid, the right hon. and learned Gentleman had almost allowed that there were no electoral offences in Ireland. That was the danger of this Bill, because the Judges who would find no offences could create them plentifully under the vast powers entrusted to them. He had referred also to small boroughs in Ireland with that threatening glance which seemed to intimate their hasty annihilation. English opinion was very likely to be deceived upon such a point as this, because it would, perhaps, be thought that these boroughs were small in regard to population, influence, and importance, compared with English boroughs with the same number of voters. But where in Ireland they saw 200 electors they had a town with as many people as a town in England that had 1,000 electors. This was an instance of how the right hon. and learned Gentleman put an extinguisher upon every fact that would lead to the information of the House. The right hon. and learned Gentleman admitted, too, with a strange want of consistency and logic, that this term of "undue influence" was indefensible. Why, then, did he seek to renew it in the Bill? The word was undefended and undefensible; and yet the right hon. and learned Gentleman kept it in a measure of a most drastic character, which he asked the House to pass. He (Mr. Dawson) was willing to see the laws of the two countries assimilated, so far as such assimilation gave increased freedom to Ireland; but he declined to shackle that country in order to follow the example of England and Scotland. This was a Bill of restrictions anni-hilatory of the rights of electors, and he would certainly oppose it. Though
    1964
    it was brought in for England, he thought it was meant for Ireland, because it was well known that the English Judges and the whole hierarchy of the law knew how to respect the rights and privileges of Englishmen, and that if the measure contained anything that was trivial or unworthy of being taken advantage of, the traditions of the Bench would be to defend the law, and not to degrade the Empire. Did the Attorney General not know that the tendency in Ireland was to pay Members, instead of Members debauching the constituencies? While he was anxious, like every other Irish Member, for purity of election, he declared that the extension of the provisions of the Bill to Ireland was totally unwarrantable. The proposal of the hon. Member for the City of Cork was not directed against purity of elections in Ireland, but in favour of a separate measure in view of the totally different position of the two countries. He hoped, therefore, the Government would see their way to accede to the request of Irish Members on both sides, and rather introduce a measure which would apply to Ireland with more cogency and justice.
    DR. COMMINSsaid, he approved of the Bill for England, believing that it would effect a very desirable reform in that country; but for Ireland it was totally unnecessary. Nothing had taken place in Ireland during the last 15 years that had contributed to the introduction of this Bill. There had been no electoral scandals there; but it was because of the electoral corruption at Chester, Sandwich, Macclesfield, and Wigan, and many other places in England, that this measure had been brought forward. It was for the sins of those peccant English boroughs that Ireland was to be subjected to a measure likely to be applied to most oppressive and unfair purposes, and in the way of stifling the small amount of liberty that at present existed in that country. They surely got enough coercive measures for themselves in Ireand without having this thrust upon them. The real remedy for electoral corruption was to do as they had done in England—where there was great improvement in this matter as compared with 40 or 50 years ago—namely, extend the franchise. Why not do for Ireland what they had done for England in that respect? Why not include it in

    1965
    the provisions of the Act of 1867? That would be the way to prevent any corruption that did exist, and prevent even any undue influence that might exist. As showing the way in which such a measure would be worked in Ireland, he might quote a dictum of Mr. Justice Fitzgerald, who had laid it down that, in advocating the cause of candidates, a man must not hold out hopes of reward here or hereafter, or fears of spiritual or temporal injury. In laying down such a principle the learned Judge would preclude any man from saying it was a moral duty to give an honest vote. What was the standard of moral duty to be set up in Ireland under this Bill? Would it prohibit a man from advising or warning an elector that he was not to vote one way or the other unless there was a Circular from the Propaganda permitting him to do so? With the new relations that seemed now to exist with that famous College, such a thing might take place; but he objected to have such a decision authorized by this Act, and future decisions founded upon it. Ireland did not want the Bill, nor had she asked for it; and even if there was any necessity for applying a measure of this kind to that country, it should be a separate and distinct one altogether, adapted to Irish requirements.
    MR. P. MARTINsaid, he saw no reason why the discredit which the passing of this Bill necessarily imputed to England and to English constituencies should be thrown on the constituencies of Ireland. The justification of a measure of this character, which might admittedly inflict the most serious consequences on those who were innocent, but might have been incautious, could alone be rested on the proved inadequacy of the existing law to meet some pressing evil. Now, certainly, as related to England, such strong instances had been mentioned that he did not complain of English Members introducing such a stringent Bill as this to deal with the flood of corruption in England; but no necessity whatever had been shown for extending it to Ireland, where corrupt practices did not prevail to any extent. In 1875 a thoroughly well constituted Committee of the House sat to discuss this question of dealing with corrupt practices; and not only did that Committee not suggest that the stringency of
    1966
    the Acts applying to Ireland should be increased, but the evidence adduced before the Committee showed that, with the exception of a few cases of intimidation, other corrupt practices might be said to be matters of past history in that country, and did not now prevail. This was borne out by the fact that in 1871 there was not a single Election Petition presented; in 1872 there were only two, which were referred to the Judge for trial; and in 1874, after the General Election, there were only eight Petitions. Of those eight Petitions five raised questions of law alone for the decision of the Courts; and, with the exception of the case of one Northern borough, there was no allegation that any corrupt practice had been committed other than intimidation in any of the three other cases. Certainly it was noteworthy that, since the passing of the Act of 1868, with the exception of the City of Dublin and the remarkable decision made in Galway County, there had been no cases in which the Judges in Ireland reported that corrupt practices extensively prevailed. Again, after the General Election in 1880, only six Petitions were brought to trial; and, except in regard to intimidation, not one of the offences or charges proposed to be dealt with under this Bill was alleged against any of the persons petitioned against. He admitted that there was one slight case—that of the election for Dungannon; but the Member petitioned against was unseated for only one single act coming within the category of bribery; and surely one such case, after the election for 1880, was net sufficient to justify the application of such a Bill to Ireland? It was said the Bill would have a great tendency to diminish the expenses to candidates, and in that respect it might be necessary for England. The Attorney General had shown, by the Returns presented to the House, the election expenses were enormous in many places in England. But, so far as he knew, this was not shown in Ireland. It was true there had, in consequence of the Liberal efforts in the North to wrest seats from the Conservative gentry, been a lavish expenditure. But it was of an exceptional, and likely to be of a temporary character. Monaghan stood at the head of the list, the expenses of the two candidates amounting to £3,300,
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)said, that the expenditure in Down was higher.
    MR. P. MARTINsaid, he believed £10,000 had been spent in Down. But that was under very peculiar circumstances. If they looked at the Southern and adjoining constituencies they would find that there had been no unfair or unreasonable expenditure that anyone could complain of. This excessive expenditure, under the present circumstances of Ireland, might be well left to work its own cure. The proposal in the Bill was wholly inadequate. Political organizations and men of great wealth might safely risk, as before, illegal expenditure; for it was by a Petition alone that the return could be questioned. He should like to know where the poor man in Ireland was to find security for the purpose of prosecuting a Petition. A wealthy man might go down and expend as much money as he pleased, trusting to the inability of the poor man to find the deposit requisite to be lodged before the Petition could be entered. Where were poor men to meet the large fees necessary to pay counsel to argue the case before the Election Judges? If there was a sincere desire to practically check illegal expenditure, why should there not be a tribunal constituted which would, whether there was a Petition presented or not, in every case where the expenditure was shown to have been excessive, examine into and report to the House the manner, object, and purposes with which that expenditure had been made. In conclusion, he would ask why, because bribery and treating had been shown to have extensively prevailed in England, were Irish Members to be called to cast discredit upon their country by extending the provisions of this measure as proposed? Under the circumstances, he trusted the House would not force the provisions of a measure which was uncalled for and unnecessary on the people of Ireland, contrary to the wishes of a large majority of their Representatives.
    SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAsaid, that the Government had shown a disposition to exclude Ireland from the Bankruptcy Bill, which she desired, and wished to include her in a Bill which she did not need, and which had no application to her circumstances. There were very few cases of bribery and corruption in Ire-
    1968
    land; and when they occurred, according to his experience, it was generally in consequence of the advent of some adventurous Scotchman or Englishman. If the Bill would prevent a recurrence of the visits of these gentlemen he would give it his hearty support. Why, if this Bill was really intended for Ireland, was not the name of the Irish Attorney General on the back of the Bill? He was not afraid of the Irish Judges giving way to prejudice, as some of his hon. Friends were; but he thought they would much dislike, in respect to a class of offences carrying heavy penalties, solely created under that Bill, to be made both Judge and jury. The Irish Judges had already shown themselves adverse to assuming the duty of a jury. The Bill was wholly unsuited to Ireland. What could be more absurd, applied to a country where everybody treated everybody else, than the clause about treating? That clause might be made the occasion of grave injustice; and men might unjustly have penalties imposed upon them greater than those which in this country were visited on men who beat their wives or half-killed their stepmothers. The Irish people had no objection to any legislation for England and Scotland desired by those countries; but they strongly opposed such legislation as that applied to their own country.
    MR. O'BRIENsaid, the Bill was regarded with great dissatisfaction in Ireland, where the one thing of which all classes were proud was the purity of electoral contests. Nowadays, nobody in Ireland ever thought of carrying an election by means of drink or money, or a gang of roughs or attorneys. The English people might learn a lesson from Ireland as to purity of election. The corrupt practices in Ireland were a thing of the past—a matter for Lever's novels. After the General Election in Ireland—a period of very great excitement—the Petitions in Ireland were infinitesimal; indeed, as the hon. Member for Kilkenny (Mr. P. Martin) had reminded the House, there was only one successful Petition, and that was from the unemotional North. Moreover, nobody had ever complained that the will of the people was not fairly and honestly expressed under the present system. The fact was this Bill would not strike at any real abuse in Ireland, but would

    1969
    be a direct incentive to men to present Petitions in the hope of getting some partizan Judge to try them, who, on some pretext or another, would be glad to upset the choice of the people. Undue influence might be all very well if they knew what undue influence was, and nobody appeared to know much on the subject; but if undue influence existed it could be punished under the Crimes Act. But undue influence in this Act would be what a Judge in Ireland chose to make it; and they all knew that although there were fair and impartial men on the Irish Bench—he had the honour of being tried before one recently—yet there were men on the Irish Bench also whose badness in their judicial capacity no words of theirs were able to describe. Why should such men as these be tempted in this Bill to use their positions to disfranchise political opponents? He hoped the House, if there was any use in hoping anything from it, would not add to the bitterness of its constant refusal to pass the measures that Ireland demanded by forcing on her a Bill which she did not want, and which would simply unsettle the only good and satisfactory institution which Parliament had planted in that country.
    MR. T. D. SULLIVANsaid, that Irish Members had, in the course of the discussion, been taunted with inconsistency in opposing this Bill, because they had often asked for equal laws for England and Ireland. But Irish Members had never asked for equal laws as regarded the letter, but only as regarded the spirit. Laws equal in respect of the letter might act very differently in the two countries. What they wanted in Ireland were laws inspired by the same spirit as prevailed in the laws of England—laws favourable to justice and to the liberty of the people. But did the Government act on that principle? From day to day they were passing special laws for Ireland which they did not want, on the ground that the circumstances of that country were peculiar to it; they should, therefore, be consistent with their contention on this occasion. It was alleged that this Bill would reduce the costs of elections in England. It was very probable that it would increase them in Ireland. One reason why the Bill might imperil the liberties of Ireland was that the Judicial
    1970
    Bench in that country acted very differently from the Judicial Bench in England where the liberties of the people were concerned. Many of the Irish Judges had won their way to the Bench by political action in or out of that House, and were not to be trusted with the trial of political causes in Ireland. The Attorney General for Ireland had said that the offence of undue influence had not been created by the Bill, it existed already. But the right hon. and learned Gentleman omitted to mention that the penalty for this so-called undue influence was very much increased under the Bill. The penalty for a candidate who should be convicted of undue influence by himself or his agents was that he should be incapable of ever being elected for the county or borough in which the offence was committed, or of sitting in the House during a period of 10 years; and if undue influence was proved to have been practised by his agent without his knowledge or sanction, then he was to be excluded from Parliament during the Parliament for which the election was held. There were Irish Representatives whose exclusion from the House was desired by a large party both in this country and Ireland, and by the Government; and he should not be surprised if treacherous agents were found who would play candidates a trick in order to deprive them of their seats. Such agents would he amply repaid out of the Secret Service money of England. Considering all the circumstances, he believed that portion of the Bill would do much damage in Ireland; and he protested against it being applied to that country.
    MR. MAYNEsaid, that no more extraordinary reason was ever given for a measure than that it would do no harm, especially at a time when the Empire was crying out for legislation which was much needed. If this Bill passed, the expenses in his county for agents and sub-agents would be enormous, whether the seat was contested or not; whereas hitherto, in the case of an uncontested election, the expenses for that county had been merely nominal. He might mention that when he contested Portarlington, a borough which had a very evil reputation for corruption in the old times, he found the most grateful remembrances there of a gentleman who was now on the Irish Judicial Bench;

    1971
    and there were stories told of £120 having passed for votes, and was that gentleman, if he (Mr. Mayne) were a successful candidate, and a Petition was presented against his return, to be his Judge as to electioneering purity? If for no other reason, he would vote against the Bill on that ground.
    MR. KENNYsaid, that if the Bill were persisted in the number of Amendments would have to be largely increased. [Mr. GLADSTONE: Hear, hear!] He was glad that the Prime Minister rejoiced at the prospect. He looked upon the Bill simply as a filibustering proposal to interfere with a very salutary and satisfactory state of things in Ireland; and the result would be that instead of its having the effect which all reforms should have of amending the condition of things, it would make them considerably worse. It had been said that the Irish Members had brought unfair charges against the Irish Judges. They had simply said that the Judges in Ireland were not as fair and impartial as those in England. It was impossible that men who depended for their position on political chances could be as fair as men appointed on their personal merits. They were told to call them to account in the proper way; but he thought there was no possibility of their being able to do that, as the only method by which it could be done was entirely out of the reach of the Irish Members and people. He hoped that at the eleventh hour the Government would yield to the remonstrances of the Irish Members, and not persevere in their determination to apply this Bill to Ireland.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)said, it was expedient that he should, before the debate closed, take some notice of the strange development of Irish opposition. This was the third time the Bill had been before the House. It was first introduced in 1881; but, until to-night, he never heard of any opposition on the part of Irish Members. In 1881 no Irish Member made the slightest objection to the Bill being applied to Ireland. It was then a more severe measure than now, and the only Member from Ireland who addressed the House upon it complained that it contained no provision for placing the expenses of the Returning Officer on the constituency. In 1882 the Bill had no more enthusiastic sup-
    1972
    porter than the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar), who had been cheering the opposition speeches of his Friends to-night. The hon. Member for Cavan, on that occasion, stated that the Bill deserved the support of everyone desirous of electoral purity. Had anything occurred since then? The Bill was the same, except that some of the penalties had been mitigated. The 5th clause was reached in Committee without any of the topics now urged being brought forward, and the Irish Members who voted gave their votes for the Bill. Therefore, he said, he never knew until now that the Irish Members objected to this measure; and for two years, by their silence, they had supported the measure as being applicable to Ireland. If the present Bill had not been made applicable to Ireland, Irish Members would have spoken still more loudly. It would have been said that the Government were making elections cheap in England, but were allowing wealth to retain power in Ireland. Had anything occurred since then? He supposed a mandate had been given to the Irish Party to change the policy they had pursued, and to oppose a Bill they had never opposed before. And what had been the attempted reasons to cover this new opposition? It was said that Ireland was so pure that there was no need for the Bill in Ireland; but, in 1874, England and Scotland, with 351 constituencies, produced 22 Petitions; and Ireland, with 64 constituencies, produced eight. And if England and Scotland had produced the same proportion as Ireland, the number would have been 48 instead of 22. [Mr. T. P. O'CONNOR: How many of the Petitions succeeded in each country?] He had not got the figures; but, from the point of view of the Irish Members, it did not matter, because they said the Judges did not act justly. And it might be said that the whole truth was not discovered. In 1880 the English and Scotch proportion was still lower than that of Ireland; and yet that was the country which it was contended ought to be exempted from the operation of the Bill. Scotland could appeal to its purity—it had had, he believed, only three Petitions since 1868; but Scotland did not ask to be exempted from the Bill. It was said by hon. Members opposite that the Irish popular Party spent no money at election. If, how-

    1973
    ever, the popular Party was very pure, some portion of the electorate of Ireland must be very impure. [Cries of "The Whig Party!"] If the Party to which hon. Members opposite belonged was so pure, they had nothing to fear from the Bill; and, therefore, they ought not to object to it. The hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) said that the popular Party in Ireland had had little or no expense in connection with the election of their candidates. He dared say that was the case; but the House had had very little opportunity of judging, because, though at the last Election 105 Members were elected in Ireland, 54 made no return at all of their expenses. The hon. and learned Member for Kilkenny (Mr. P. Martin) said that Monaghan was the county where the expenditure was the largest. He must have forgotten that in the county of Antrim four candidates spent £14,000, and that in the county of Down the candidates spent £12,000. If such great expenditure were allowed in Ireland and forbidden in England, wealthy candidates who failed at the elections in the latter country would flock to the former, in the belief that their wealth would enable them to be successful there. It was curious that the hon. Members who objected to the application of the Bill to Ireland were the very Members who were always praying for equal legislation for the two countries. They said that the law with regard to undue influence ought not to be altered for Ireland. They assumed that the Bill would alter that law, when, as a matter of fact, it would not. [An hon. MEMBER: It alters the penalty.] Well, the alteration of the penalty was agreed to last year, when no objection was raised. [Colonel NOLAN: I objected to it.] If the hon. and gallant Member objected to it, he certainly did not divide the House upon the question. There was some unexplained reason for the present opposition. The hon. Member for Ennis (Mr. Kenny) had threatened that his Party would defeat the Bill by attempting to introduce a large number of Amendments. It would be contemptible to yield to threats of that kind. Those who had charge of the Bill could not possibly yield to an opposition springing from an unknown source, and supported by arguments which were nothing else than threats.
    MR. LEAMYsaid, the hon. and learned Gentleman had asked why the Irish Members opposed the application of the Bill to Ireland now, no such opposition having been shown in the last two Sessions. The reason was that the Irish Party had no longer any confidence in the Liberal Government. They had seen the most unconstitutional acts taking place in Ireland with the sanction of the Government; and they believed that if such a Bill as this were passed in the present Parliament, all freedom of election would practically be taken away from Ireland. It was very well for the Attorney General for Ireland to defend the present Bench of Judges; but what guarantee was there that after the passing of the Bill the Ministry would not appoint a partisan Judge who would strain the law in order to get rid of an inconvenient political opponent, like the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy), for example, who was sent to gaol for four months only because he was an inconvenient opponent. Did anyone mean to tell him that any English Member would be sent to gaol on similar grounds? The reason why the Irish Members opposed the Bill was that, having talked it over fairly at a, meeting which they held for that purpose, they came to the conclusion that it would not be safe to trust the Government with such a measure. The decision that had been given in the case of the Galway Election Petition, that the interference of priests in an election constituted undue influence, was repugnant to the feelings of the great majority of the Irish people. In these circumstances, seeing that the Judges on the Irish Bench were capable of giving decisions which were opposed to the opinion of the Irish people, he called upon the Government to give some clear definition as to the meaning of the term "undue influence," and as to the meaning of the word "agent." He would only add that he did not know where the mandate of the Irish Party alluded to by the Attorney General should come from. Recently there was a mandate sent to Ireland; but it was not sent through the wish of the Irish Members. He thought that the Treasury Bench was more responsible for it than they were.
    MR. MACARTNEYsaid, the hon. and learned Attorney General objected

    1975
    that no Representative from Ulster had intervened in the debate. He (Mr. Macartney) believed himself that he was only expressing the opinion of all the Members for Ulster, when he said that the whole of that Province would rise in indignation if a different law on this subject were proposed for Ireland from that which was to prevail in England and Scotland. They objected to be subjected to different laws from those which prevailed in the rest of the Kingdom; and they would certainly resent the idea that corrupt practices and intimidation should be allowed to exist in Ireland, while they were put down by fine and other penalties in England.
    MR. BIGGARsaid, he must earnestly deny that he had on that, or any other occasion, received any mandate from his constituents, or from anybody else, as to the course he was to take with regard to any measures before Parliament. He had now been nine years in Parliament, and never, on any occasion, had his constituents found fault with his conduct. More than that, he had never received any instructions as to how he was to vote upon any particular question; and therefore he could say, with a clear conscience, that no mandate had been given to him as to how he was to act on this occasion. The hon. Member for Water-ford (Mr. Leamy) had stated, with fairness, that the Irish Party had consulted among themselves, and had come to a conclusion as to how they were to act. The Amendments which had been put down upon the Paper in his (Mr. Biggar's) name were all bonâ fide Amendments. He was prepared to defend them upon their merits, and he believed the House would accept them, if they were disposed to decide the question upon the arguments which might be advanced. The hon. and learned Attorney General asked how he (Mr. Biggar) could conveniently reconcile the course he was now taking with his conduct on a former occasion; but he would point out that, only that very night, the Prime Minister had set hon. Members an example by expressing his convictions in favour of a particular course, and winding up by voting on the other side. He (Mr. Biggar), therefore, thought that he was quite justified in changing his mind, even supposing that he had changed it. The hon. and learned
    1976
    Gentleman said that, in general terms, he (Mr. Biggar) had supported the provisions of the Bill last year. Well, he had also spoken, in general terms, in favour of the Bill this year, because he conscientiously objected to extravagance in election expenses, either in regard to England or Ireland. But, last year, he had stated that certain specific Amendments were desirable, and there was one particular Amendment which he thought most desirable, and which he believed he would be able to convince the Government they ought to give. If they refused to give that particular Amendment, then he thought the Bill would do more mischief than it would do good in those parts of Ireland with which he was directly interested. He had never seen the advantage of having paid election agents, and of having election committee rooms held in public-houses. Other electioneerers seemed to have different ideas, and were of opinion that it was desirable, in an election contest, to indulge in extravagant expenditure. He was satisfied that if the Bill, in its present state, were passed into law, its results would be disastrous to the Whig Party in the North of Ireland. He knew, by experience, that a great number of the electors were lukewarm and careless; and unless some influence was brought to bear upon them—he did not mean unfair influence—but unless some influence was brought to bear upon individual electors a large number of them would never go to the poll at all. He did not claim to possess the gift of prophecy; but he had a strong personal opinion that, if the Bill were passed, it would be altogether disastrous to the Whig Party; while, with regard to the Irish National and popular Party, they did not require to come into contact with the electors at all, being confident in the strength of their views. Since the last General Election some experience had been gained of the way in which the law was administered in Ireland. At one time it was thought that the so-called Liberal Party would be disposed to administer the law fairly in Ireland; but, since then, they had had experience of packed juries and partizan Judges, which had very considerably opened their eyes. In order to show what sort of men the Irish Judges were, and to justify the want of confidence felt in their administration of the law, he would only relate

    1977
    one incident that occurred at the last Assizes. A man named Finnigan was put on his trial for an offence committed against a land agent on a particular Sunday in July. But the man was able to show, by producing the books of a large firm in Glasgow, that he was in Glagow upon that particular day; and, therefore, it was impossible that he could have been in the county of Monaghan. But the Judge upon the Bench told the jury that it was quite possible for the informer to have made a mistake as to the day, and that it might have been some other day, and, therefore, that they ought to find him guilty of the charge. Under such circumstances, when a Judge sitting upon the Bench administered justice in that way, the Irish Party were justified in declaring their objection to have the rights and liberties of the Irish people con-trolled by Judges of that stamp.
    MR. J. N. RICHARDSONsaid, that the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) occupied an unique position among his Colleagues. He was an Ulster man born and bred, and in the matter of election expenses the characteristic shrewdness of an Ulster man did not desert him. It was this quality, perhaps, which prevented him from publishing his election expenses. He (Mr. Richardson) could not find fault with that, however, because he saw that his own expenses were not returned. The only remark he had to make was, that he knew what they were himself, and he knew that they were a great deal too much. His only comfort was that the expenses of those other Gentlemen who contested the county of Armagh must have been larger still. However, after what the hon. and learned Attorney General had laid before the House in regard to the large expenditure which had been incurred in contesting constituencies in that abandoned Province of Ulster, he would appeal to the hon. and learned Gentleman to allow the Bill to apply to Ireland, so as to give the Ulster candidates and Ulster constituencies some protection against excessive expenditure. In regard to what the hon. Member for Cavan said, that the Bill, if passed into law, would be disastrous in its effect upon the Liberals of Ireland, that might be true, or it might not; but, whether it were true or not, he agreed with the hon. Member for Tyrone (Mr. Macartney), that it was most
    1978
    desirable the law, both in England and Ireland, should be the same.
    MR. CALLANsaid, he was surprised to hear the speech they had just listened to from an Ulster Member. The hon. Member opposite (Mr. Richardson) asked that this law should be applied to Ireland, in order to save the Ulster Whigs from illegal and immoral expenditure. Now, he (Mr. Callan) knew something of the county of Armagh, living, as he did, upon its borders, and knowing a good deal in regard to the circumstances which attended the election of the hon. Member who had just sat down. Pure Ulster Whig as the hon. Member was, his election agent had shown great discretion in not returning the election expenses of the hon. Gentleman. He (Mr. Callan) saw, some time ago, in a number of Punch, a picture representing an inebriated man standing outside a public-house. He was a Scotchman. [Cries of "Hear, hear!"] He was glad to hear that cry of "Hear, hear!" from the Scotch Representative of an Irish constituency. Well, this inebriated Scotchman was accosted by a friend in this way—"Sandy, where have you been, and what are you doing?" "Oh! I am getting on right well"—but the remark was made in a somewhat drunken tone—"I am very prosperous indeed." "Why, Sandy, how is that?" "Well, I am a temperance lecturer." "What! a temperance lecturer, and you in that state?" "Well, my brother is the temperance lecturer, and I am the awful example." He could only apply this story to the Ulster Members; and he could assure the House that when the corruption of Ireland was totalled up, the Whig Ulster Members would be found in every shape and form, the most awful examples of the corruption they denounced. Who were the worst examples of corruption in 1880 and at other General Elections? In 1869 who was the only Member representing an Irish constituency unseated for illegal and corrupt practices? It was the hon. Member for Drogheda (Mr. Whitworth), the Prime Minister of the temperance movement. If the Bill had a Preamble to it, reciting, "that whereas corrupt practices have extensively prevailed," it could not be said that they had prevailed extensively in Ireland; because in 1880 there was only one Petition presented, and that had rela-

    1979
    tion to a Whig constituency. And in what Whig constituency was it proved that corruption did prevail? It was the borough of Dungannon, and the Member unseated was the hon. Gentleman the present Representative of the County of Tyrone (Mr. T. A. Dickson). A Whig par excellence represented it, who lost his seat for illegal and corrupt practices. Even in this case, the expenses of the hon. Member were subscribed for him by the pure and incorruptible Radicals now sitting below the Gangway. Those pure and incorruptible Radicals below the Gangway subscribed and paid the expenses of the only Member for Ireland unseated in the last General Election for illegal and corrupt practices. Now, he (Mr. Callan) knew something of illegal and corrupt practices. [Mr. CAINE: Hear, hear!] He heard the cry of "Hear, hear!" from the Liverpool ironmaster.
    MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member is not entitled to refer in that manner to a Member of the House.
    MR. CALLANsaid, he intended to refer to the hon. Member for Scarborough (Mr. Caine). Now, he (Mr. Callan) had gone through the ordeal of an Election Petition. He believed the expenses against him were subscribed, one-half by the United Kingdom Alliance, represented by the hon. Member for Scarborough; and the other half by gentlemen who belonged to the Irish National Land League. He had great satisfaction in saying that he beat both of them, and that Mr. Baron Dowse, having tried the Petition for six days, stated that the election was a pure election. The learned Judge, in delivering his judgment, said—
    "I know something of the House of Commons, and something of the practices of that House; and I must say that if a Petition was presented against every Member of the House, I do not believe, if the law were to be strictly carried out as it stands, you would have a House of Commons at all."
    In that opinion he (Mr. Callan) fully and entirely concurred. In regard to the present Bill, what was it to do? One condition was that every candidate must appoint an election agent, and must be responsible for the acts of that agent. At the present moment, a candidate could go down and address a constituency, place his political career before that constituency, and be returned or
    1980
    rejected, as a good many persons were. But if a man was rejected, what was the result? He was not responsible for the acts of anybody but himself. Candidates were not obliged to be responsible for the acts of agents, because they need not appoint them unless they wished. But the hon. and learned Attorney General said that a candidate must appoint an election agent, for whose acts he must be held responsible. Now, he (Mr. Callan) did not believe that he could find in Ireland, or in any county in Ireland, so fit and so capable an election agent as himself. Then, why, in the name of common sense, should he be obliged to appoint some nincompoop as his agent, and be responsible, and probably unseated, for his acts? Not one single valid reason had been brought forward to show why this Act should be extended to Ireland. He knew that the hon. and learned Attorney General had a perverted mind upon this point, because he judged the Irish constituencies by his own acts, and those of his own constituency, which was the most corrupt constituency in England, and had long been a bye-word throughout the country. Every man knew that the return of the hon. and learned Gentleman had only been won by the indirect acts of his agents, and by the exercise of corrupt and undue influences. [Cries of "Order!"]
    MR. SPEAKER: Do I correctly understand the hon. Member to charge another hon. Member of this House with indirectly using corrupt influences to obtain a seat?
    MR. CALLANreplied in the negative. He had made no such charge, because he was aware that, although there was an Election Petition against the hon. and learned Gentleman, he was declared to have been duly elected. Therefore, he had not attempted to go behind the opinion of the Judges. He was only speaking of the general character of the hon. and learned Gentleman's constituency; but in regard to the hon. and learned Gentleman personally, he did not desire to go behind the opinion of the Judges. In regard to the Irish constituencies, there had been a unanimous concurrence of opinion from 1869 until 1880 that, as far as bribery or corrupt influences were concerned, they were perfectly pure. He thought that the House ought to be guided by that fact;

    1981
    and as, in the opinion of the Irish Judges, the Irish constituencies were pure, they ought not to extend the Bill to Ireland.
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes 243; Noes 31: Majority 212.—(Div. List, No. 119.)
    Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
    Bill considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Attorney General.)
    MR. RAIKESsaid, he wished to ask the Prime Minister what course he intended to take to-morrow, after the unexpected course the debate had taken that evening in regard to the present Bill? It was anticipated that the House would have gone into Committee, and have made some progress with the Bill. This expectation had, however, been defeated, and they had only been able to get into Committee. He would, therefore, ask the right hon. Gentleman if he still intended to take the Committee upon the Bill to-morrow, with probably only an hour or so for its consideration; and if he intended to proceed with so small a portion of the Bill before going on with the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill? He had understood the right hon. Gentleman to accept the position pointed out by the hon. and gallant Baronet the Member for West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot), that it would be inconvenient for the House to have the two Bills before it at the same time. He would, therefore, ask the right hon. Gentleman if he intended to go through with this Bill before he took up the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill, or whether, if he took this Bill tomorrow, he intended to go on with it also on Monday; and if he proposed to take it de die in diem before proceeding with the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill?
    MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he proposed to take the Lord Alcester and Lord Wolseley Annuity Bills to-morrow. He apprehended, however, that there would be a considerable amount of time available to-morrow after these Bills were disposed
    1982
    of; and he did not think it could be better occupied than in getting on with the Parliamentary Elections (Corrupt and Illegal Practices) Bill. To-morrow, at 2 o'clock, he would be in a position to inform the right hon. Gentleman what course he proposed to take with regard to the Agricultural Holdings (England) Bill.
    SIR WILFEID LAWSONsaid, he should have a word or two to say tomorrow upon the principle of the Annuity Bills. On a former occasion they had only discussed the question of the desirability of conferring pensions.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

    SUPPLY.—REPORT.
    Postponed Resolution [31st May] considered.
    (10.) "That a sum, not exceeding £57,263, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1884, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Department of Her Majesty's Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs."
    Said Resolution read a first time.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Resolution be now read a second time."

  PAPAL SEE—DIPLOMATIC COMMUNICATIONS—MR. ERRINGTON.

    OBSERVATIONS.
    LORD RANDOLPH CHUECHILLsaid, he rose to call attention to the circumstances of Mr. Errington's visit to Rome. He thanked the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister for having put off the consideration of this question the other night, and for having afforded him a more convenient opportunity for bringing it forward; and also for not having pressed him, the other night, to bring the question before the House at a somewhat late hour. He was bound to say that, since the matter was last under the consideration of the House of Commons, a considerable change had come over the whole matter. It would probably be within the knowledge of the House that, on Thursday night, on the proposed Vote on Account, some hon. Members sitting in that quarter of the House, and also some hon. Members opposite, were anxious lest any money

    1983
    that the House of Commons were going to vote for Secret Service should, by any possibility, find its way into the pocket of Mr. Errington, either as remuneration, or re-imbursement for services he had rendered. He had put Questions as to the exact nature of Mr. Errington's Mission to Rome; and he had pressed upon the Prime Minister that, if there had been anything whatever about Mr. Errington's position at Rome of an official, or semi-official, or officious character, a clear and distinct record of the manner in which that position had been asserted and maintained, should be preserved in the archives of the Foreign Office; and if Mr. Errington had made representations to the See of Rome with respect to the views of Her Majesty's Government as to what might be good for Ireland, a clear and distinct record of those representations should be kept; because, undoubtedly, the result of Mr. Errington's stay at Rome had been to produce a document, from the College of the Propaganda, of a very remarkable character, in which the Pope undoubtedly came forward, in a most distinct and pronounced manner, as an ally and supporter of Her Majesty's Government in Ireland; and in which he pronounced, equally and decidedly, in favour of law and order, and against extreme popular agitation. No doubt, that would be accepted by many hon. Members on both sides of the House as decidedly a good result of any negotiation that might have taken place. However, those were the grounds upon which he pressed upon the Government—and if matters had not altered he would have pressed upon them again—that the clearest and most succinct record of all that had taken place should be preserved in the Foreign Office, in order that future Governments might have something to guide them, in case it might be thought advisable hereafter to enter into similar relations with the Holy See. That course was forced on himself, and those sitting near him, because they had heard it stated, on good authority, that whatever communications might have passed between Lord Granville and Mr. Errington, up to the present moment they had been of an extremely secret and confidential character. It had been impossible to ascertain their nature. All they knew was that there had been communications, and constant communications; and they were in-
    1984
    formed, on the best authority, that those communications had passed, not directly from Lord Granville to Mr. Errington, but through Lord Granville's Private Secretary to Mr. Errington, and that when Lord Granville should leave the Foreign Office every document relating to the transactions would be destroyed or carried away. Now, that was not the way in which the foreign policy of this country ought to be conducted, and he considered it a dangerous method. But another and a most surprising change had come over the whole matter since the House had briefly considered it on Thursday last, a change which had altogether revolutionized every idea they had been able to form in connection with it. Because, on Saturday last, a very surprising, and, in some ways, a very portentous event occurred, the chief actor therein being no less a person than the Prime Minister. On the day named the right hon. Gentleman went to Stafford House. That, if it stood by itself, he (Lord Randolph Churchill) should have considered a remarkable occurrence; for, although, no doubt, all the great and small houses in England were open to the right hon. Gentleman, still he thought a long time had elapsed since he went to Stafford House. But the right hon. Gentleman went to Stafford House for a particular purpose; and a more extraordinary purpose, considering what had taken place, he defied hon. Members to conceive—he went to Stafford House for the purpose of unveiling, or taking part in the unveiling, or witnessing the unveiling, of a monument, or a memorial, or a monumental tablet, or something of that nature, erected in Stafford House in honour of Garibaldi; and the Prime Minister, not content with either unveiling or taking part in the unveiling of this memorial, monument, or monumental tablet, proceeded to make an eloquent and lengthy eulogium upon that hero. He was bound to say that if the House would only consider what had occurred, they would come to the conclusion that it was extremely difficult to make out, on this point, as well as on others, the foreign policy of Her Majesty's Government. For, undoubtedly, Mr. Errington had been at Rome as a recommended Agent; Mr. Errington had obtained from the Pope of Rome, by means of his recommendation as Agent of Her Majesty's Government, a Manifesto which had

    1985
    produced a remarkable effect in Ireland, an effect which they were in every way entitled to consider a good effect, and there was no doubt whatever that the Government received that document from the College of the Propaganda with feelings of satisfaction. This had been, in a great measure, brought about by the policy adopted by Lord Granville in sending Mr. Errington to Rome, and by communicating with Rome by means of Lord O'Hagan. Having done all that, having produced this effect by a policy which, if it were an open one, he should not in the least object to, he asked hon. Members, what could be the object of the Prime Minister in going to Stafford House, within a few hours of the production of the Manifesto, and eulogizing a man who had done more harm to the Church of Rome, both temporally and spiritually, than any man in the history of his country since the days of the Constable of Bourbon? Garibaldi, who drove the Pope from Rome; Garibaldi, who, long before M. Gambetta, raised the cry L'Ennemi c'est le Cléricalisme; Garibaldi, who, if not an infidel, was certainly anything but a follower of the Romish Church; and Garibaldi, who, on more than one public occasion, eulogized the Goddess of Reason—this was the man for whom the Prime Minister went to Stafford House, as far as he could make out, to conciliate a Whig Duke, who, for a long time, had been frowning upon him; this was the man whom the right hon. Gentleman eulogized and panegyrized as he only could eulogize and panegyrize, and whom he held up to the admiration of assembled nations. When, on Sunday morning, he (Lord Randolph Churchill) read the account of these proceedings in The Observer, a Liberal newspaper, he was, so to speak, knocked head-over-heels with astonishment. The idea suggested itself that they must have been mistaken throughout; that they had indulged more than usual in disordered imagination; that there could not have been any such person as Mr. Errington, any such thing as a recommended Agent; that the document from the Propaganda was a myth, and that Cardinal Jacobini and the Pope had never, in any way, interfered in Ireland, because the Prime Minister was the last man who would repay blessings with injuries, or would meet kindness with ingratitude. Let
    1986
    the House bear in mind that no ingratitude could be more deep than that, having received assistance from the See of Rome in the shape of the document referred to, the Head of the Government should proceed at once to laud to the skies the deadliest enemy the See of Rome ever had. He had been unable to arrive at the faintest conclusion on this matter; and he should be really obliged to the Prime Minister if he would not take any notice whatever of the remarks he had made, if he would on no account venture on any explanation, because he confessed that his mind was in a perfect whirl, and he was unwilling to accuse the right hon. Gentleman of conduct so bad as it would be if the statement referred to were correct. He should ask the House to consider, if this marvellous inconsistency were true, that Mr. Errington was in Rome, that his presence there had produced a document such as that which had appeared in the public Press, and that within a few days the Prime Minister made a public return for that document by pronouncing this panegyric on Garibaldi. But he would beg hon. Members, if they wished to preserve their reasoning faculties, to dismiss the matter from their minds; because he was perfectly certain that no person except the Prime Minister—and he doubted, in this respect, even the capability of the right hon. Gentleman himself—could offer anything like an intelligible explanation of what had taken place.
    MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, I intended to rise exclusively for the purpose of redeeming my pledge given to the noble Lord opposite (Lord Randolph Churchill) with regard to Mr. Errington's Mission, the circumstances of his visit to Rome, and on the point that some record of the proceeding should be kept at the Foreign Office. The noble Lord, in the course of his speech, adverted, from time to time, to some astonishing changes in the political atmosphere, and in the whole situation of affairs with regard to our foreign relations, which had taken place since Thursday last. I will not say that I was knocked head-over-heels, or that my mind was in a whirl, nor will I resort to any other of those figurative expressions in which the noble Lord has abounded to-night; but I will say that I was obliged to ask my noble Friend near me what it was that the noble Lord

    1987
    was referring to in the latter part of his speech; I am bound to say I was greatly surprised to hear that it was to my visit to Stafford House and the lengthy speech which, according to the noble Lord, I made there. Well, Sir, I do not admit that it was a lengthy speech. Mr. Canning was once asked by an unfortunate Gentleman, who had made a speech in the House of Commons, whether his speech was a long one. Mr. Canning said it had not been long. "Oh," said the Gentleman, "I was afraid it was tedious." Mr. Canning looked as if that were quite another matter. Whether my speech was tedious or not I do not know; but it occupied little more than five minutes, and cannot, therefore, be looked upon as long. The noble Lord has seen a connection between that speech and Mr. Errington's visit to Rome, which, I confess, I do not at this moment perceive. It was rather in the nature of a personal than a political speech; and the noble Lord will find, if he refers to it, that it dwelt entirely, except in a single sentence, upon the personal qualities of Garibaldi. The personal qualities of Garibaldi were exceedingly remarkable and exceedingly attractive, as they were displayed in this country at the time of his visit. There was not a word in that speech, if it may be dignified by the term, with reference to the political services rendered by Garibaldi, except in a single sentence in which I combined Garibaldi, Count Cavour, and Victor Emmanuel, and spoke of them as having done a great and splendid work in the reconstruction of Italy. ["Hear, hear!"] With regard to Garibaldi, I do not deny that, like Cavour, like Victor Emmanuel, and like many other persons who have been sincere and fervent Roman Catholics—and I am very far from saying that Garibaldi was one—he was opposed to the temporal Government of the Pope. But Garibaldi had no connection with the driving of the Pope out of Rome. He drove the King of Naples out of Naples; but it was the people who drove the Pope from Rome. It does seem to me to be a strange and very extravagant interpretation of the language I made use of with reference to Garibaldi, Cavour, and Victor Emmanuel, to connect it with communications going on between Mr. Errington and the Vatican. I now proceed to redeem my pledge given to the noble Lord, and that also made to the
    1988
    hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Joseph Cowen). I agree that there ought not to be any mystery about a matter of this kind; but there is nothing mysterious in the declarations concerning it which have been made, from time to time, on the part of the Government, either in this House or the other, and I will briefly refer to what has taken place. Mr. Errington made known to Lord Granville his disposition and intention to go to Rome. He went there for his own personal vocations. A Roman Catholic gentleman going to Rome, and taking a great interest in private affairs, very naturally has communications with the Head of his Church, and with, the persons surrounding that Head. We have not catechized Mr. Errington as to the purpose he had in going to Rome. We had confidence in his abilities and his general views; and, therefore, we felt glad that he was going, and obliged by his offer to represent, as well as he could, the true state of things in Ireland. We entertained that sentiment exclusively in the interest of public order, peace, and legality; and no question connected with politics, as distinct from order, peace, and legality, entered in the slightest degree into our contemplation. But when it is considered what kind of countenance has been given within recent times in Ireland to breaches of the law, and to a state of things menacing to both public and private security, I think it was right that the Government should feel an interest in all means likely to convey just, impartial, authentic and independent information to the Head of the Roman Catholic Church naturally in communication with members of that Church, and, I presume, entitled, as the Heads of all Churches are entitled, to advise the members of his own Church upon the performance of their duties in obeying the law of the land. [Laughter from the Irish Members.] I am not surprised at the manner in which hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway opposite receive these remarks; it is too much, I am sorry to say, their habit to indulge in this mode of proceeding, which can hardly be termed Parliamentary. These are the motives of the Government, and the limits of the interest they felt in Mr. Errington's Mission to Rome. It has been stated, over and over again, that Mr. Errington has had, and will have,

    1989
    no pay; that he received from the Government no instructions; and that we made no demands either of him or from the Pope through him; but Lord Granville gave him such information with regard to the state of affairs in Ireland as he might, with perfect propriety, give to him or to any other person in whom he had confidence, and who had confidence in him. The noble Lord made some slight allusion to Lord Granville's Private Secretary. I am not sure that I understood him. [Lord RANDOLPH CHURCHILL: It had been told me.] Lord Granville's Private Secretary had no other share whatever in these matters than such as necessarily devolves on a Private Secretary with regard to communications which are not carried on through the regular machinery of the Foreign Office. Such was the attitude of the Government relative to Mr. Errington, and such was the independent part with regard to this matter which Mr. Errington was to take upon his own judgment and upon the information he had. The use he might make of that information, and the recommendations he might make, were matters for his own consideration, and were conducted by him on the basis of his own judgment with regard to Irish affairs. But the admission I make to the noble Lord is, that, although I think it was quite right and natural that this should be treated without any reference whatever to transmission when Mr. Erriugton first went to Rome, I am of opinion—and my Colleagues are of opinion—that the prolonged and repeated visits of Mr. Errington to Rome—always, I must say, at his own suggestion—have tended to give another character to his visits; and, therefore, I have to say that a record will be made and kept of these proceedings for the purpose of transmission to future Secretaries of State. Then, I have a few words to say with regard to a question by the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Joseph Cowen). I have communicated with my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and likewise with Earl Spencer himself. The Chief Secretary informs me that his communications with Mr. Errington amount to nil. He does not say he never made any; but that is the result. Earl Spencer describes his own communications sufficiently in these words—
    1990
    "With respect to Mr. Errington, I have seen him several times when he has passed through Duhlin. He has called upon me, and we have talked over Irish affairs; but I have never asked him to take any particular line or action at Rome."
    That is the nature of the instructions. I think I have now said as much as will meet the points which have been raised.
    SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFsaid, he would trouble the House with a few words with regard to what had fallen from the Prime Minister. If this concession had been made before, as it ought to have been—namely, that the subject-matter of Mr. Errington's Mission would be placed on record—it would have saved a great deal of trouble and useless discussion in that House. The only complaint he had made on the subject was that there was to be no continuity of information in the Foreign Office on the subject of Mr. Errington's Mission to Rome. It was perfectly well known that he was in communication with the Foreign Office, and the right hon. Gentleman never denied that. [Mr. GLADSTONE: Through his Private Secretary.] Yes; but in his public capacity at the Foreign Office. The right hon. Gentleman wished to divide Lord Granville into two parts, as was done with M. Roustan. In the course of the winter he (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) had had the satisfaction of seeing Mr. Errington and others in relation with him at Rome, and he must say that Mr. Errington was highly respected at the Vatican; and he believed Mr. Errington's word had constantly been taken by all the authorities at the Vatican upon Irish matters, whereon they had previously been misinformed. He always had considered it hard that Mr. Errington should be practically repudiated by the Treasury Bench. All he and his hon. Friends had contended for had been satisfied. Their demands had been met. Mr. Errington's Mission was recognized as that of an Envoy, inasmuch as a record of his Mission was to be kept at the Foreign Office, and, by Order of that House, could be laid upon the Table. The Government could not deny that in any way. The archives of his Mission was no longer to be hidden away in Lord Granville's pigeon-holes or despatch box; but the Government were now about to record, in a public manner, that Mr. Errington had their con-

    1991
    fidence—that he had made representations to the Pope in a public manner. The Government now recognized that the services of this Special Envoy had been crowned with success, and that they owed a great deal to having sent him to Rome.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I abide by all the words I have said with regard to the instructions.
    MR. SEXTONsaid, he thought the hon. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) was very easily satisfied if the promised records afforded him satisfaction; but if the records were conceived in the same spirit of reserve as his speech had been, they would not give much satisfaction to future Secretaries of State for Foreign Affairs. It was very instructive to Irish Members to hear the cheers from Radical Members when the Prime Minister endeavoured to minimize his speech at Stafford House with reference to Garibaldi. Irish Members were under no mistake as to the most prominent characteristics of Garibaldi. They did not include respect for the sanctity of human life; and he was one of the most prominent of foreign conspirators and revolutionists. It was very instructive to Irish Members to find English Radicals cheering the name of a man whose personal characteristics, if they meant anything in politics, resolved themselves into the condensed characteristics of the political assassin; while they had nothing but horror and detestation for a similar type of character when it made its appearance in Ireland. It was not so long since the Prime Minister presented a very remarkable pamphlet to the world. The Holy See had a proverbial long memory, and it did not forget the pamphlet called The Vatican, which startled the public life of England a little time ago, not only because of its own ability and research, but also because it proceeded from the pen of the eminent right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister. In that pamphlet the right hon. Gentleman spoke of the "rusty and mediæval weapons of Rome;" of its "rusty armour re-furbished for modern use;" and he had nothing but scorn and contempt for the "puny Pontiff of an outworn Creed," daring to interfere in the political affairs of free and independent Protestant nations. The right hon. Gentleman had shown, on many
    1992
    occasions, how his convenience could effect remarkable transitions in his views. To-day they could see how the Pontiff, who, a little while ago, was in the right hon. Gentleman's eyes only a figure for scorn and contumely, could be treated with condescension more insulting to that ancient Sovereign than even the scorn of the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman had thoroughly justified the attack of the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill), which was courteous, but, at the same time, substantially severe. The noble Lord had pointed out that one day the right hon. Gentleman was glad to receive the assistance of the Pope, and another day passed a eulogy upon the man who was responsible for the overthrow of the temporal power of the Pontiff. It was idle to say that Garibaldi did not take part in the entry into Rome. He was, in fact, the political engineer of the events which led to the abolition of the temporal power of the Pope; and, however Pope Leo XIII. might be deceived by that speech, he could not be deceived as to the force of Garibaldi's action on the temporal character of the Holy See. The right hon. Gentleman had behaved with singular ingratitude with regard to any assistance he might have received; though, in reality, he (Mr. Sexton) did not think the right hon. Gentleman had received any service. He believed that, in Ireland, this matter would be attended with three effects. The first was personal, with respect to this Roman Catholic Gentleman, Mr. Errington, who had sent his letters home in the official bags of the British courier, and had been received at Rome next after the Representatives of Foreign Powers. Whatever might be said here, at the Vatican Mr. Errington was received, if not as a regular Ambassador, at least as an Envoy—that was, between the regular Ambassadors and those who had no official position. The Prime Minister had been driven from his position of obstinate silence, and the public had been irritated by the action of the Government. The first effect of this proceeding in Ireland would be the ruin of Mr. Errington's political position. The Government might give him a Peerage; but that would be poor compensation. Peerages were rather cheap, and he might not be eligible for a Peerage. He had not

    1993
    faced his constituents, and dared not appeal to a public tribunal in Ireland; and yet this Roman Catholic Gentleman, who dared not show his face in Roman Catholic Ireland, was said to be a fit Envoy to the Pope. He was ruined politically; and if the right hon. Gentleman was not as ungrateful to Mr. Errington as he was to the Pope, he had better look after that Gentleman's interests. The second effect would be to intensify the success of the man against whom this action had been directed; and the mean, furtive, intriguing character of the means by which the Pope had been moved to issue his Circular was shown by the fact that the Holy See had departed from tradition and dignified usage, and turned that Circular into a personal attack upon a politician. He challenged the history of the Roman Catholic Church to show any occasion when the authority of that ancient and still powerful Church had been used in a manner unworthy of the dignity and usage of the Church as it had been in this instance. The third effect would be, no matter what the momentary effect of the voice of this ill-used authority might be, to produce a greater cohesion and union among all the forces of public politics in Ireland against any pretence or claim to undue domination over the affairs of that country by the British Government.
    MR. JOSEPH COWENsaid, he very much regretted that the name of Garibaldi had been, as he thought, unnecessarily dragged into this discussion. The House would do him the justice to admit that he had never endeavoured to distinguish between an Italian and an Irish patriot. He had recognized the merits of Garibaldi and of other Italians, and he had never ceased to acknowledge the merits of Wolfe Tone, or Michael Davitt; and the reference made by the right hon. Gentleman had no effect so far as he was concerned. One remark, however, he wished to correct. Garibaldi did not drive the Pope from Rome in 1848. The Pope had left Rome, in consequence of the assassination of Count Rossi, before Garibaldi was made Commander; but, allowing that to pass, he was sure the House would receive with satisfaction the explanation of the Prime Minister. It fully confirmed the suspicions in which hon. Members opposite had indulged, as to the action of Mr.
    1994
    Errington. They said he was an informal Envoy, and was practically representing the English Government at Rome, and the declaration of the Prime Minister confirmed their suspicions. His only regret was that it was not made at first. It was a fairly debateable question whether the English Government should be represented at the Vatican or not; but if the Government had acted in an open manner, the informal discussions with which the House had been troubled this Session and last would not have taken place. He had one personal observation to make, and that was with reference to the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Lord Edmond Fitzmaurice); and, as they were now leaving the subject, he thought it was only fair that it should be made. Through the noble Lord's Answers to the Questions which he (Mr. Joseph Cowen) and others had asked, an impression was created that the noble Lord was not absolutely stating the whole case, but was intentionally keeping something back. He thought there was no ground for such a suspicion. The noble Lord was comparatively new to the Office he now held, and any communications respecting Mr. Errington took place when he was not in a position to know of them. The noble Lord was simply the spokesman of Lord Granville in that House, and had in no way acted disingenuously in the matter. The Government now acknowledged that Mr. Errington was in Rome, to a large extent, in the character of an Envoy, and had been recognized as their Representative there. He did not say that the English Government wished to be so represented; but, throughout all these transactions, he had been so recognized. When he went to the Vatican he had gone along with the other diplomatic Representatives. Undoubtedly, the impression was created at Rome that Mr. Errington was the spokesman of the English Government. Now, he (Mr. Joseph Cowen) submitted that it was humiliating to the English Government to seek the assistance of a foreign Ecclesiastic in the management of affairs in Ireland. Irish society was in a state of solution, and grave disaffection existed in the country; the land was ruled by a rigorous system of coercion. There was a state of despotism existing there which was almost equal to that which

    1995
    existed in Russia. England governed Ireland with soldiers and policemen, and behind the soldiers and policemen there were the informers and the hangman. These were the instruments and implements of despotism. It might be necessary for us to rule by superior force in Ireland; but we ought to rule it ourselves. We should not seek the aid and assistance of a foreign ecclesiastical Power. Reference had been made to the affairs of 1848; but did not English Liberals remember what a cry of indignation was raised in this country when, during the Hungarian struggle for independence, Austria sought the assistance of the Pope. Let us judge ourselves as we judge other people; and if we condemned Papal interference then, we ought to condemn the interference of Mr. Errington in Rome. As an Englishman, he regarded the negotiations with the Pope as humiliating. Mr. Errington had been the means of extracting from the Papal authorities a condemnation of a political opponent. His hon. Friend the Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) had fought the battle of his country honourably and well. What did they see? They saw an Irish Gentleman throwing himself into political agitation, giving his services, his time, and his health—suffering both in purse and person—to the interest of his country. His countrymen sought to recompense him as English Free Traders recompensed Mr. Cobden. We used an Envoy of Her Majesty's Government to get from the Pope a Mandate to prevent the testimonial to the hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of Cork being successful. The Archbishop of Cashel had been distinctly censured for the part he took in the agitation. He (Mr. Joseph Cowen) submitted that that was a mean way to fight a political opponent. To seek the assistance of a foreign Ecclesiastic in the government of Ireland was humiliating; and it was mean to seek to ruin a political opponent by such means.
    SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEsaid, he did not rise for the purpose of entering into the subjects of the discussion that had occurred during the last hour; but he merely rose for the purpose of taking note of the observations and statement of the Prime Minister, that, for the future, there would be a note made of communications between Earl Granville or between other Members of
    1996
    the Government and Mr. Errington. He thought that, so far as it went, was satisfactory, and relieved the House and the Government from a very embarrassing position, which they had seen illustrated for some time past. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) and the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock (Lord Randolph Churchill) were to be congratulated upon the result of the frequent questions they had put in regard to this matter. He (Sir Stafford North-cote) could only say that he thought the decision of the Government in this matter had been rightly advised; though he was bound to say he agreed with the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. Joseph Cowen), and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Portsmouth, that it would have been well if the decision could have been arrived at earlier.
    MR. O'DONNELLsaid, that, so far as events had gone, the House had reason to be satisfied with the explanation which had been made that evening. They had had something like an open confession from the Government—a confession, indeed, extorted under pressure of what in old times was called "the question." He only rose on the present occasion to state that, while he had no very high opinion of the means which Her Majesty's Government had employed, he still certainly thought that Irish Members ought to have been prepared for the employment of those means. Her Majesty's Government had had so much of the field to itself at Rome, that the Irish National Party ought to adopt means of counteracting the unscrupulous representations which had been made to Rome on behalf of the Treasury Bench. He hoped that not only Englishmen would take a lesson from the proceedings to which the Government had been a party, but that Irishmen also would take a lesson. He would point out that Mr. Errington was by no means the first sort of secret Envoy who had been employed at Rome. He remembered reading a denunciation by Mr. O'Connell of the employment of a Mr. Petre, an English Catholic, some 50 years ago, for similar purposes. It was mere affectation to conceal the fact that the Papal tribunal was continually beset by the Representatives of every Power in the world. He should, therefore, certainly have been very much sur-

    1997
    prised if the English Government had not their Representative at Rome. He was, however, sorry to find that that Representative was an Irish Catholic. But the Irish National Party ought to enter into the lists of diplomacy just as well as Her Majesty's Government. He thought his hon. Friend the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) rather overshot the mark in stating that that was the first time that a personal attack had been made by a Roman document. He (Mr. O'Donnell) had already expressed his opinion as to the impropriety of the measure which was recommended to the Papacy, and of the false information supplied to the Papacy; but, at the same time, there was nothing extraordinary or unparalleled in the action of the Papacy. He meant to say that personal interference was a thing for which hundreds of parallels could be found in the history of the Roman Catholic Church, and that, on many other occasions, the Roman Catholic tribunal had in its action been quite as unjust as in the present instance. He hardly agreed with the statement of his hon. Friend the Member for Sligo that the Papal prononcement was obtained by means of that secret description referred to by his hon. Friend. It was a matter of public notoriety that, for months past, Mr. Errington had been at work in Rome. The character of his work everyone knew very well, and he and his hon. Friends had had full warning to take proper steps in the matter. They also knew that Mr. Errington was by no means alone; that he was supported by a considerable number of other persons; and he (Mr. O'Donnell) could assure his hon. Friends of the Irish Party that they would be devoting their abilities to something like a task of crushing a small nut with a Nasmyth hammer if they expended much more of their attention upon Mr. Errington, who was only a small thing in the machinery which England had put in force for the purpose of damaging the Irish cause in the eyes of the Papacy. He hoped that much more comprehensive means would be set on foot to counteract the intrigues of the Treasury Bench against Irish nationality, both in Ireland, Rome, and in other parts of the Continent. He was sorry to say that an enormous amount of slander had been allowed to get in circulation throughout Europe; and he thought the Irish Party would, be re-
    1998
    sponsible for the future of their country if they did not take adequate means to defend Ireland outside of Great Britain as well as within the walls of that House.
    MR. O'BRIENsaid, that, after the eloquent speeches of his hon. Friends the Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) and the Member for Newcastle (Mr. Joseph Cowen), he only desired to say a very few words indeed to express his satisfaction that the "iron masked mystery" was at length revealed. They knew now that Mr. Errington is or was a more or less reputable Envoy of England. Up to the present, he was represented as very little better than a busy-body, a kind of tourist, amusing himself by dabbling in amateur diplomacy. They knew, however, now that he was an official, or a semi-official, or a demi-semi-official, Representative of Ireland. As the hon. Member for Newcastle had said, he (Mr. O'Brien) did not see why the people of England, as well as the people of Ireland, need have been left in the dark until Mr. Errington had done his work in Rome, and had obtained a Vatican decree, which, if it be loyally observed, would not only restore the relations between the Holy See and England, but would restore those relations to the footing they were on before the Reformation. He said "loyally observed;" but he did not mean observed in the spirit of last Saturday's speech at Stafford House, but be observed in the spirit of Mr. Errington's private assurances in Rome for a month past. It was for the people of England themselves to make up their minds whether they wanted to restore the temporal power to the Pope. Was the Pope to prescribe and proscribe a political Leader of the Irish people? Let the people of England settle that with the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government. The people of Ireland would show they were pretty well able to take care of themselves. He was afraid it was not a very productive work to confront the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister with old declarations he had himself made. Certainly, one-half of his eminent career had been passed in making great speeches, and the other half had been passed in explaining them away. His speech to-night showed that there was no decline in his power in that respect. It was for the House to say

    1999
    whether the right hon. Gentleman had receded from the standpoint from which he denounced the Vatican 10 years ago, and denounced the "rusty tools" with which it went to work. Undoubtedly, upon this occasion, the right hon. Gentleman had revived one of those "rusty tools" which, in his renowned pamphlet, he so vehemently denounced. He (Mr. O'Brien) would not detain the House further than to say that he thought a careful study of that debate in Rome would show the Pope and the Sacred College of the Propaganda what crooked and humiliating intrigues had been going on all round; and would show what a poor compensation the insulting patronage and the contemptuous applause of the eulogist of Garibaldi would be for the estrangement of the tried loyalty of the Irish people.
    MR. MARUMsaid, a certain amount of fair play ought to be exhibited in this matter. His Holiness the Pope was not present. No notice had been given him of the discussion. There was no official appearance on his behalf; and yet, in his absence, his action was very freely criticized and condemned. What, he (Mr. Marum) asked, did the Circular which had been so much condemned amount to? It was merely declaratory of the common law of the Catholic Church, so to speak, and not in any sense enactive; it was conversant with disciplinary admonition alone, and did not touch the laity, nor travel out of matter of ecclesiastical cognizance. The Pope was clearly within his rights in its issue, and the law he promulgated bound himself as absolutely and stringently as the humblest curate in Christendom, and was equally immutable whether dormant or active. He showed that the allegation that the Pope was a Foreign Prelate or Potentate betrayed only ignorance of the vital principles of Catholicism—universality and unity; that the Pope was an Irish Bishop as absolutely as any ecclesiastic who had ever borne an Irish crozier, at the same time being Head of the Irish Hierarchy and Premier Bishop of Christendom, and not merely of special nationalities alone, but of all nationalities in the universe, blended together in the ecclesiastical sense. He submitted that there was nothing in the document itself intrinsically giving it political incidence so far as the Pope was concerned. What proof
    2000
    or evidence had been given of the complicity of the Pope in any of the supposed movements which had been condemned? He did not want to defend the Government in the matter. Let them look to themselves; but he certainly thought that before His Holiness, who was the absent party, was condemned, it ought to be shown that he was guilty of complicity in the supposed movement. As to matters external to the Circular, what proofs of the complicity of the Pope with the British Government were adduced? The noble Lord alluded to the Prime Minister's speech at Stafford House. Why, that utterance struck at the very root of the temporal power, and was an argument quite the other way altogether. He had formerly defended the Pope against the Prime Minister, and was the first layman who had forwarded him a pamphlet reply to Vatieanism duly acknowledged. He ridiculed the "unification" doctrine and revivalism of effete Empires, as propounded by the Prime Minister. He asked what page of history recorded a former Kingdom of Italy with Rome as its capital; and was Britain yet to fall under a new Roman Empire? Could the Pope be conceived to be in complicity with the authors, aiders, and abettors of the plunder and confiscation of his own—the Papal territories? It was absurd! Again, what further proofs of complicity were adduced? Was it the Prime Minister's fulsome laudation of the Papal spoliators?—of the bandit Garibaldi, whom the French nation, exercising European police, expelled ignominiously from Rome, re-instating the loyal Sovereign—Pope Pius IX.—of the usurper Victor Emmanuel, who, without declaration of war, and in violation of International Law, had invaded the territories of, rand sacrilegiously seized upon, the most venerable dynasty in the universe—of Cavour, his unscrupulous Prime Minister; and lastly of Panizzi, the convicted felon or Carbonaro, condemned to death at Modena as such, member of an infamous secret society! Could the Pope be imagined to be in complicity with a Government, the foreign policy of which, within the past week, was announced from its Chief, the Prime Minister, at Stafford House, as utterly subversive of Papal rights and in favour of the Papal spoliators? Even if Pope Leo were disposed to con-

    2001
    done the spoliative acts, the law of the Church would not empower him to release the universal glebe lands—non possumus! He submitted that in the Circular itself, intrinsically or in matters external, there was not a particle of proof of complicity in the Pope, but the evidence was entirely the other way; and, as an Irish Catholic, he protested against the groundless imputations cast upon the Head of the Catholic Church not officially represented, and made ex parte, and as a piece of Party tactics in the House by the noble Lord the Member for Woodstock. The Premier Bishop of Christendom, exercising ecclesiastical jurisdiction within Her Majesty's Dominions in Ireland, was perfectly justified—nay, it was his bounden duty—to obtain information from every available quarter, including the Civil Governors of the country, as to matters of fact for his guidance. The Judge and jury should hear the perjured witness as well as the just and truthful man; and was it, therefore, to be solely deduced that the verdict found, in any possible direction, was thereby unduly influenced by the false evidence adduced. That would be post hoc propter hoc with a vengeance. Such contention was insensible and repugnant—it was illogical and absurd. In behalf of the absent—in behalf of His Holiness, he might almost say for the absent defendant—he must protest against these imputations being cast upon him, unless some stronger evidence than that which had been adduced was forthcoming.
    MR. BELLINGHAMsaid, he wished to enter a protest against the suggestion that His Holiness the Pope had acted at the dictation of the British Government. The thing was absurd, and not to be credited for a moment. The Prime Minister was led to believe that by his negotiations with the Pope he had offended a large number of his Protestant supporters, who regarded what had occurred as a Papal intrigue; and he, therefore, went to Stafford House to assist in a Garibaldi celebration, and made a good Protestant speech to appease them. His (Mr. Bellingham's) object in rising, however, was simply to enter a protest against the absurd allegation that the Pope had acted at the dictation of the British Government.
    MR. CALLANsaid, he wished to make a few observations on this subject,
    2002
    as an Irish Catholic. He did not speak on behalf of His Holiness the Pope, nor as his hon. Colleague (Mr. Bellingham) had done, but he spoke as one born in the faith. As an Irish Ultramontane, he had to express his regret at the course of the debate generally, and also his pleasure at one portion of it. He was very glad that the veil had been torn aside, and that it was now made known that it had been not merely Mr. Errington who had been engaged in this intrigue. Mr. Errington was only a fly upon the wheel; in fact, he (Mr. Callan) thought Mr. Errington did not go to Rome expressly on behalf of the British Government. He believed the popular rumour was correct, that Mr. Errington had gone to Rome, as many men went on the Cup Day to Ascot, to look out for a wife. ["Question!"] That was the question—what took Mr. Errington to Rome. He believed Mr. Errington went to the Eternal City, not as the accredited Ambassador of the British Government, but, like a celebrated character, in search of a wife. What was his career in Rome? He had been made a scapegoat, the real Envoy, the real intriguer, who had discharged his functions with Machiavellian audacity, having been the Lord Chancellor, Lord O'Hagan. That was the man who had worked the oracle, and whose finger was to be found in the pie. Mr. Errington was a very good mam—a very good man—a frequenter of the classic regions of Pimlico.
    MR. SPEAKER: I must ask the hon. Member to address himself seriously to the Question before the House.
    MR. CALLAN: I wish to do so, Sir. I desire to show that Mr. Errington's life in London has been of so trifling a nature as to render it altogether improbable that he would have been selected for a mission of this kind.
    MR. SPEAKER: Again I must call on the hon. Member to address himself seriously to the Question before the House.
    MR. CALLANsaid, he would confine himself, on this point, merely to saying that he believed Lord O'Hagan to have been the real intriguer in this matter. He would not say anything about Mr. Errington, who was a most respectable Gentleman, who would never sit in the House again, either for an Irish or an English constituency. The work had been done by Lord O'Hagan, under the

    2003
    shadow of Mr. Errington's name. As an Ultramontane, he (Mr. Callan) paid every respect to the authority of Home. He had done so in the past, and he should continue to do so. He should not subscribe to the Testimonial Fund, the Sacred College having condemned it. But, whilst that was the position he took up, he had not been ignorant of what was going on around him. He know the usual method by which the Court of Rome communicated with the heads of the Church in Ireland. When she communicated with these heads, she did so by a secret missive; that missive was considered by the Bishops called together for the purpose, and presided over by the Papal Legate, or whoever was, for the time being, at the head of the Episcopal authorities. After considering the missive, the Bishops, as their wisdom dictated, published the Roman Pastoral with their own instructions to the clergy. But what had been done in the present case? Had the Irish Bishops received a Pastoral, and had it been communicated by them to the Irish people? ["Question!"] He was addressing himself, he believed, to the Question. He was endeavouring to point out the difference between this missive under discussion, alleged to have been sent out with the concurrence of the Pope, and the other missives which His Holiness from time to time addressed to the Bishops of the Church. All communications from the Pope concerning the discipline of the Church came through the Bishops; but how did this communication come—how did it first see the light? Why, by Mr. Errington's communicating it to the Roman Correspondent of The Times newspaper. Had they ever known in Ireland such an important document being sent to the Irish Bishops through journals which had stigmatized the priests of Ireland as "surpliced ruffians?" Certainly not. No; the cloven hoof was visible in this matter, and it was plain enough to see that this missive had been obtained, not in the regular course of ecclesiastical discipline, not from the Pope, but from certain Italian Cardinals, who had sent it to Mr. Errington. One of the best known of Italian characteristics was duplicity. How did the missive come? Through The Times——
    MR. HORACE DAVEYrose to Order. He wished to ask Mr. Speaker whether
    2004
    the difference between the method of publishing the recent letter from the Pope, and other missives, was the Question before the House?
    MR. SPEAKER: I have already informed the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Callan) that he is not addressing himself to the Question before the House, and I am sorry he has not attended to my direction in the matter.
    MR. CALLANsaid, it seemed he was in error in believing it to be essential in this debate to show that the missive communicated by Mr. Errington to The Times was different to all other letters sent for the guidance of the Catholic Bishops and people, and must have been obtained through British influence at the Holy See. As Mr. Speaker held that he was not in Order in going into that matter, he would not do so further. He would simply refer to the speech delivered by the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Joseph Cowen) in a sentence. The hon. Member had said, and said most justly, correcting some hon. Members on that (the Opposition) side of the House, that the Pope was driven from Rome not by Garibaldi, but by the assassination of Count Rossi. The assassins of Count Rossi were paid out of an English Fund belonging to a society called "The Friends of Liberty," to which one of the most generous subscribers was the right hon. Gentleman the late Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (Mr. W. E. Forster).
    MR. DAWSONsaid, that, as one who was deeply attached to the traditions of a spiritual character which bound the people of Ireland to the Holy See, he knew more than hon. Gentlemen opposite would, perhaps, be prepared to admit, of what the Holy See and the Church had done for the promotion of literature and science, and the many temporal as well as spiritual blessings Ireland possessed. It was only just to state what he knew of the feeling of the Irish people on the subject under discussion; and he was glad of the opportunity, for statements such as this—made in such a place—in fact, the debate altogether would do a great deal towards clearing the atmosphere all round, both in Rome and Ireland. The Holy Father would see—if he did not see already—that he had been, he (Mr. Dawson) would not say duped, but, to some extent, misled. He would be surprised to find that the

    2005
    imformation he had received from Mr. Errington and the British Government had been of a hopelessly incorrect character, and one-sided in the extreme. Hon. Members opposite, who were not Catholics, would remember that the Pope acted in two capacities. He said nothing binding on Catholic consciences when he spoke on political matters. Letters which had been issued by the Sacred College on political subjects had never had any binding effect upon the consciences of Catholics, and they never would have. A man could not, as a Catholic, pronounce a greater heresy, and one more dangerous to the Church, than that the Pope was supreme in political matters. ["Question!"] Nothing, he maintained, could be a greater heresy than to ascribe infallibity to a communication from the Sacred College on political matters. ["Question!"] It was clear that hon. Members who made that demonstration knew very little about Roman history or literature, or anything connected with the subject of the debate. This debate would clear the atmosphere in Rome, because the Holy Father would have an answer from Ireland, telling him that the representations which had been made to him wore altogether unworthy of his great and supreme consideration. He (Mr. Dawson) would point out to the British Government how useless was the attempt to seek to rob Ireland of her religion by political movements of this kind. They had sought to wring Ireland from Rome by contumely and abuse; but they had not done it, and now they sought, by deceit, to rend Rome from Ireland, but they would miserably fail. If they thought that, by appealing to Rome, they were going to silence the voice of Ireland against their misrule, they were mistaken. That voice, in the future, would be louder than it had ever been before; and Rome would hear it as well as them. Rome would look deeper into the matter, and the Government might rest assured that their intrigue for the separation of Rome and Ireland would not succeed. To their confusion, the result would be greater unity. As a Catholic, and knowing the opinions of millions of the people of England, he said that, although the Government had gone in the face of the nation, and of the doctrines of those men—Garibaldi and the rest—whom they had received with
    2006
    jubilation, and had demeaned themselves and stultified themselves by negotiating with the Power these men had sought to overthrow, they would learn that there was no Power on earth—not even that of Rome—capable of dictating to Ireland a political course of action. Did the Government wish to create more trouble in Ireland, they could not have gone more surely to work than to have dared to hold over the Irish people the threat of spiritual Rome in these temporal matters. Ireland would pursue her course on every point, no matter what Circular was issued by the spiritual Propaganda. It was only when they coincided with the messages from the Holy See politically that they would agree to follow her dictates. One great Pontiff, Sixtus the Sixth—
    MR. SPEAKER: I must point out to the hon. Member (Mr. Dawson) that he is not confining himself to the Question before the House.
    MR. DAWSONsaid, he understood that the Question before the House was the influence of an English Envoy at Rome. He thought it was left by the Prime Minister to be understood that the issue and outcome of that agency was the Circular to which reference had been made. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had congratulated the House upon the result of that affair; but he (Mr. Dawson) would tell him, as a responsible Minister of the Crown, and as a Member of the House of Commons, that he had made a mistake in using such an Envoy for a purpose which he would not achieve. He thought, with very great respect, that he (Mr. Dawson) was outside the ruling of the Chair; but, however, he would not pursue the matter further.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Resolution read a second time, and agreed to.

  MOTIONS.
    STANDING COMMITTEE ON TEADE, SHIPPING, AND MANUFACTURES.

      RESOLUTION.
      MR. GOSCHENsaid, he was instructed, as Chairman of the Standing Committee on Trade, Shipping, and Manufactures, to move the following Resolution:—

      2007
      "That the Standing Committee on Trade, Shipping, and Manufactures have leave to sit on Mondays till half-past Four of the clock, and on Fridays till half-past Two of the clock, during the Sitting of the House."
      As Morning Sittings had now commenced in the House, the Committee were anxious to utilize, as far as possible, the interval before the commencement of Public Business; but the House would bear in mind that when the Standing Committees were originally formed, a Standing Order was passed declaring that—
      "The said Committees shall not sit while the House is sitting without the Order of the House."
      Under that Standing Order, the Committee over which he had the honour to preside were anxious to obtain the leave of the House to sit for an extra half-hour on two days of the week.
      Motion made, and Question proposed,
      "That the Standing Committee on Trade, Shipping, and Manufactures have leave to sit on Mondays till half-past Four of the clock, and on Fridays till half-past Two of the clock, during the Sitting of the House."—(Mr. Goschen.)
      MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, he was rather surprised that this Motion should be made—a Motion so important—at a time when the House was unprepared for it. The circumstances under which the Standing Order which the right hon. Gentleman now called upon them to vary was made were fresh in the recollection of the House. When these Standing Committees were proposed, they necessarily occasioned a good deal of discussion during that Autumn Session which had been forced upon an unwilling House. They were accepted by the House loyally, but with considerable misgiving, and qualified by a strong desire that they should not spoil the Business of the House by interfering with the Sittings of the House. After long debates, in which the right hon. Member for South-West Lancashire took a prominent part in opposing them, an agreement was come to, in terms suggested by the Prime Minister; and the operative Standing Order was framed, of which the important words were these—
      "The said Committees shall he excluded from the operations of the Standing Order of July 21, 1856, and the said Committees shall not sit, whilst the House is sitting, without the Order of the House."
      2008
      That was passed on the 30th November last. No doubt, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon was strictly within his rights in making the Motion which had now been submitted to the House; but he was not within the spirit of those rights; he was not within the spirit in which the House assented to the formation of these Grand Committees. Those Committees were still in their most tender infancy. They were an innovation, and already his right hon. Friend wished to vary that innovation. Why did he wish to vary it? In order to bolster up another innovation which gave up Tuesdays and Fridays to the Government in a much more wholesale manner than had ever been done before. The right hon. Gentleman had given no good reason for the change; and he (Mr. Beresford Hope) thought that such a change, so counter to the assurances which had led to the autumnal capitulation, ought not to be granted by an exhausted House at 2 o'clock in the morning, especially when hon. Members had to be there again at 2 o'clock in the afternoon. He would move the Adjournment of the Debate.
      MR. WARTONsaid, he thought it was impossible that they should go on extending the work beyond the powers of an average Member of Parliament. The Government were trying to carry their measures by a process of sheer exhaustion. These Committees were agreed to under solemn promises given; but it was the habit of the Government to break all their promises; it was a regular plan with them. When the New Rules were made, they said the Committees were not to sit during the Sitting of the House, and what was now proposed was a clear breach of faith. If the Resolution now proposed was carried, hon. Members who sat on the Grand Committees would be deprived of the opportunity of hearing prayers. The Government, which tried to foist an Atheist on the House, might not have a very good opinion of prayers; but it was the duty and the privilege of hon. Members to pray. He would, therefore, second the Motion for the Adjournment of the Debate.
      Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned,"—(Mr. Beresford Hope.)
      MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he would have liked to make a few observations on the subject; but he understood that, under the New Rules, it was impossible for him to do so. He was, therefore, reluctantly compelled to vote for the Adjournment.
      MR. CHAMBERLAINsaid, he should have thought that the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken (Mr. Sclater-Booth) would have done the exact opposite. He (Mr. Chamberlain) was precluded from answering the observations of the right hon. Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Beresford Hope), because the Motion now before the House was one for the Adjournment of the Debate; and he thought it was desirable that that right hon. Gentleman should withdraw his Motion, so that a discussion could be taken on the Main Question.
      SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSsaid, he should have agreed with the view just expressed, had it not been for the fact that it was now 2 o'clock in the morning. He had a good deal to say on the subject that he could not say now, and he did not think the House was in a proper condition for discussion.
      Question put.
      The House divided:—Ayes 34; Noes 99: Majority 65.—(Div. List, No. 120.)
      Original Question again proposed.
      MR. CHAMBERLAINsaid, he could not help thinking that the right hon. Gentleman who made the last Motion (Mr. Beresford Hope) was under some misapprehension; because he said that the object of the Government in this matter was to vary the Standing Order, which, as the hon. and learned Gentleman who seconded that Motion (Mr. Warton) said, constituted something like a breach of faith with the House. He (Mr. Chamberlain) desired to call attention to the words of the Standing Order, which were that—
      "The said Committees shall not sit, whilst the House is sitting, without the Order of the House."
      Now, if those words had any meaning at all, the Standing Order distinctly contemplated that there were circumstances in which the leave of the House might be applied for, and the direction of the House obtained. Both the Mover and Seconder of the Motion for
      2010
      Adjournment complained of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon (Mr. Goschen) for having introduced this subject at that period of the evening; but he (Mr. Chamberlain) would point out that his right hon. Friend had no alternative in the matter. His right hon. Friend had not acted for himself, but only by the direction and on behalf of the Committee. It had been arranged, with the consent of the House, that Morning Sittings would be taken on Tuesdays and Fridays. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Beresford Hope) said that that was an innovation at this period of the year. He thought, however, that the right hon. Gentleman was mistaken; because it had been the practice, under the late Government, to take Morning Sittings on those days earlier in the Session. For instance, the Valuation Bill was taken at Morning Sittings which began on the 6th of May. There was nothing, then, unusual in the Government asking the House to commence Morning Sittings on Tuesdays and Fridays. He considered it convenient, under the circumstances, to ask that the Standing Committee on Trade, Shipping, and Manufactures should not sit on those days; and he accordingly made a proposition in the Committee that it should sit on Mondays and Thursdays. Objections were taken to that proposal, on the ground that the Members of the Committee had made all their arrangements, which it would be extremely inconvenient to alter. The hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Ritchie) then proposed that the Committee should sit three-quarters of an hour longer on Mondays, and half an hour longer on Fridays, thus giving the Committee an hour and a-quarter, in place of the two hours and a-half, which he showed was the whole time gained by sitting on the other days. As that appeared a fair compromise, he (Mr. Chamberlain) withdrew his proposition, and accepted that of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets. The hon. Member for West Essex (Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson) proposed that their application to the House should be to sit till 5 o'clock on Monday, because he said it would not be a serious matter to miss a few of the earlier Questions; but it was pointed out that that would be inconvenient, among other reasons, because Members of the Government might have

      2011
      to attend in their places to answer Questions. The proposal of the hon. Member for the Tower Hamlets was then put and accepted, nemine contradicente. It was under these circumstances that his right hon. Friend the Member for Ripon had made the Motion before the House, and which, as it represented the unanimous wish of the Members of the Standing Committee, he trusted would be agreed to.
      SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSsaid, he made no complaint whatever of the course taken by his right hon. Friend (Mr. Goschen) in making this Motion, because he was only acting in accordance with the wish of the Standing Committee; but it was quite another question whether the House should agree to the Motion at that hour (2.5). It was a question whether, under the Standing Order, the Committee had any power to make the suggestion at all, which the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. Chamberlain) described as a compromise, although he (Sir R. Assheton Cross) agreed that the proposal was made in the least objectionable form. When the Standing Committees were appointed it was certainly the understanding eventually arrived at that they were not to continue to sit while the House was sitting. Now, if the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon were carried, and the principle were admitted that, simply by the wish of the Members, these Grand Committees might go on sitting, and so overlap the Sittings of the House, there was nothing to prevent another Motion being made next year that they should sit continuously. He wished to show that if they once admitted the principle in an easy case it would be absolutely impossible to resist it in a more difficult one. He doubted whether the interpretation given by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade of the Standing Order was the correct one. When that Order was before the House there was great discussion as to whether the Standing Committees should go on the principle of the Select Committees, and the decision was that the procedure should be the same as that of Select Committees, unless the House should otherwise order. That he (Sir E. Assheton Cross) understood to mean that the Committee might come to the House and ask for an extension of time
      2012
      on a special occasion. But no Select Committee that ever sat had thought of coming to the House to ask for leave to sit continuously. The Standing Order went on to say—
      "Provided also, That the said Committees shall be excluded from the operation of the Standing Order of July 21st, 1856, and the said Committees shall not sit, whilst the House is sitting, without the Order of the House."
      He imagined that the spirit of those words was that the Order of the House on every special occasion should be obtained. That matter came about on a Motion of his own. In view of the difficulty which would result from the Committee sitting during the Sitting of the House, he moved to insert the words, "which shall only sit whilst the House is not sitting." The House debated the question throughout the evening, and the Government were very strong in their opposition to the proposal. The Prime Minister was absent on the occasion; and he remembered saying that had he been in his place he would have given way on the point raised. The hon. Member for Bedford, who was present, said he thought it was only reasonable to add to the Amendment the words, "except by leave of the House obtained on each occasion." The next day the Prime Minister came down to the House and made a statement, in which he said he had considered the matter, and eventually the Order was passed in its present form. But he (Sir R. Assheton Cross) believed it was generally understood by the House that it was only on special occasions that the Committee should ask leave to sit while the House was sitting. It was all very well to say that only an hour was involved in the one case, and three-quarters of an hour in the other; but the proposal would entail upon hon. Members many inconveniences that he was sure they would not like; for instance, there would be no interval whatever between the times of attendance in the Committees and in the House, and then there would be a great difficulty in securing their seats in the House. Moreover, the proposal before the House was only a matter of compromise; and he was, therefore, bound to say that he did not attach much weight to the fact that the Committee were unanimous upon it. The proposal would never have been made had it not been for the Morning Sittings

      2013
      to be held on Tuesdays and Fridays; and had it been made under other circumstances, he believed that a very different opinion with regard to it would have been expressed. For those reasons he protested against the principle sought to be established, and because he was certain that if it were adopted a future Minister might use it as a precedent for some more inconvenient form of procedure.
      Mr. WHITBREADsaid, as the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir R. Assheton Cross) had reminded him (Mr. Whit-bread) of a suggestion he had made, he might be permitted also to remind him that that suggestion was not accepted by the House, and that the right hon. Gentleman himself had said that the proposal would not get rid of the difficulty. The Prime Minister, who, as the right hon. Gentleman had stated, was absent on the occasion, came down on the 30th of November, and, in the course of his statement, said that it was the general feeling of the House that the Grand Committees should, not be sitting during the Sitting of the House; but he added that there could be no doubt that it was in the power of the House to authorize any one of its Committees to sit during the Sitting of the House. He (Mr. Whitbread) thought it advisable to accede to the Motion before them at a time when the House was doing its best to get through Business. The proposal was not that the Standing Committee should sit during the debating hours of the House; but that it should take advantage of the time when Private Business and other formalities were gone through. If the House was disposed to get through its Business, he thought that the Motion which, with the unanimous voice of the Committee, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ripon had been instructed to make should be agreed to.
      MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, there were many things permissible under the Standing Orders which were not expedient, and the proposal before the House appeared to him to be one of them. He regretted that the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Goschen) and the Committee should so early think it necessary to depart from the understanding of the House with regard to these Committees. If the Standing Committees had had any success—and
      2014
      he thought their success had been considerable—it was owing to the fact that they had departed as widely as possible from the practice of Select Committees, and had conformed as nearly as possible to that of the Committee of the Whole House. The immediate result of the change proposed by his right hon. Friend would be to assimilate the practice in respect of the Standing Committees to that of Select Committees and Committees of less important character. These Standing Committees consisted of 80 or 90 Members; and he thought it was too much to ask the House to discharge so large a number of its Members from attending in their places at the proper time. He desired to see a future of great usefulness attending the institution of the Standing Committees, and he believed they would do much to relieve the House of a large amount of Business that would be less well done by Committees of smaller dimensions; but if they were to allow them to sit concurrently with the House of Commons, he was sure that by so doing they would very materially interfere with its powers.
      SIR LYON PLAYFAIRsaid, he did not think there was much difference of opinion on either side of the House with regard to this proposal. The spirit of the original Standing Order was quite clear; it was that when the House was really in active Session the Committees should not sit upstairs; but what was the extremely limited proposal now made? They all knew what generally happened at this period of the Session. Private Bills had, to a considerable extent, run out, and the Speaker had to remain sometimes half-an-hour doing nothing; and the suggestion now made was that during that time, when their presence in the House was not required, hon. Members should be allowed to sit upstairs in Committees. Members might suffer some inconvenience by not taking their places; but they were quite willing to sacrifice that consideration. As he thought they all felt it was necessary to keep to the spirit of the Standing Order and to use the time that was now wasted, he believed the House was nearly unanimous upon this moderate proposal.
      MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYsaid, he thought the proposal of the President of the Board of Trade was very objectionable, for it disarranged all the ar-

      2015
      rangements hon. Members had made. If he went to a division, no doubt the right hon. Gentleman could carry his proposal; but this proposal was not the desire of the Committee.
      MR. W. FOWLERsaid, there had not been a word of dissension in the Committee upon this proposal. The proposition was, not that the Committees should sit when the House was practically sitting, but simply while the House was doing what it could perfectly well do without the presence of the Members of the Committees. If they were willing to continue sitting, he hoped the House would not insist upon refusing this moderate request.
      MR. J. G. TALBOTsaid, he had given the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Chamberlain) warning that this proposal would not pass without challenge. The proposal was that the Committees should have leave to sit till half-past 4, and the argument was that that was the time when Private Business was being dealt with; but this was a time of the year when Private Business ceased to occupy much time. What would happen? In a short time it would be proposed that Public Business should begin at a quarter past 4; and then the Committees would be sitting for a quarter of an hour during Questions. Besides that, at the Morning Sittings, Public Business might begin as soon as the Private Business was got through; and so, both on Monday and Friday, the Committees would be sitting while Public Business was proceeding. The Government had, in the person of the right hon. Gentleman who took the chief part in one of these Committees (Mr. Chamberlain), one of their most energetic Members; but was it right to tax human endurance to this extent? What happened now in the case of the right hon. Gentleman? Very often most important Questions were addressed to him in the Honse. If this proposal were adopted he would have to sit upstairs from 12 o'clock to half-past 4. The Committee had lately passed a Rule which deprived the right hon. Gentleman of his luncheon, for which they had previously given him a quarter of an hour; and now he would have to come straight to the House and find a number of impetuous Gentlemen ready with Questions which he would have to answer. It was not fair to him, full of
      2016
      vigour as he might be, to expect him to devote all his time from 12 o'clock at noon to this late hour—2 or 3 in the morning—to the House. Hon. Gentlemen were trying to drive a willing horse too hard and too far. If they wanted these Committees to work they must work them in the manner originally proposed. Whatever hon. Gentlemen might say about the spirit of the law, as proposed by the Prime Minister and accepted by the House, it meant that the Committees should not sit while the House was sitting. This proposal was the thin end of the wedge; and if it was agreed to now by the House—and, of course, the Government could carry it—the Standing Committees would receive a serious blow, because the understanding arrived at last year was not being properly carried out.
      THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir FARRER HERSCHELL)said, he thought that if the hon. Member (Mr. J. G. Talbot) had intended to convey a warning that this arrangement would not be assented to, he was unfortunate in not conveying that intention to the Members of the Committee when the proposal was accepted sub silentio. If it was his intention to upset the proposal, it would have been only fair to have let those who made the proposal understand that. Whatever the hon. Member intended, that intention was not conveyed.
      MR. DIXON-HARTLANDsaid, he did not think any hon. Members on the other side of the House would say that he was accustomed to support the Government in any measure they brought forward; but, upon this point, he could not help feeling that, if he did not support the Government, he should be committing a broach of faith. At the beginning of the Committee certain days were fixed, and he was the Member who had proposed that the days should be fixed. Upon that, every Member of the Committee made his arrangements; and when the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Chamberlain), the other day, tried arbitrarily to alter the days, it was thought that that would cause such inconvenience that many Members would not be able to attend, and a compromise was effected. As it was a compromise, he thought hon. Members sitting on the Committee were bound to support the proposal, and he should have no option but to do so.
      Original Question put.
      The House divided:—Ayes 97; Noes 30: Majority 67.—(Div. List, No. 121.)

      ELECTRIC LIGHTING PEOVISIONAL ORDERS BILL.
      On Motion of Mr. JOHN HOLMS, Bill for confirming certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under "The Electric Lighting Act, 1882," relating to Cambridge, Canterbury, Chelsea, Folkestone, Gravesend, Greenock, Greenwich, Finchley, High Wycombe, Ipswich, Maidstone, and Sunderland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. JOHN HOLMS and Mr. CHAMBERLAIN.
      Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 216.]

      ELECTETC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 2) BILL.
      On Motion of Mr. JOHN HOLMS, Bill for confirming certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under "The Electric Lighting Act, 1882," relating to Aston, Birkdale, Dudley, Saltley, Ulverston, West Bromwich, and Wolverhampton, ordered to be brought in by Mr. JOHN HOLMS and Mr. CHAMBERLAIN.
      Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 217.]

      ELECTRIC LIGHTING PROVISIONAL ORDERS (No. 3) BILL.
      On Motion of Mr. JOHN HOLMS, Bill for confirming certain Provisional Orders made by the Board of Trade under "The Electric Lighting Act, 1882," relating to Balsall Heath, Birmingham, Redditch, and Walsall, ordered to be brought in by Mr. JOHN HOLMS and Mr. CHAMBBRLAIN.
      Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 218,]

      RAILWAY PASSENGER DUTY, &c. BILL.
      On Motion of Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Bill to amend the Law relating to Railway Passenger Duty, and to amend and consolidate the Law relating to the conveyance of the Queen's Forces by Railway, ordered to be brought in by Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, Mr. CHAMBERLAIN, and Sir ARTHUR HATTER.
      Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 219.]

  PARLIAMENTAEY ELECTIONS (CORRUPT AND ILLEGAL PRACTICES) [PAYMENT OF COSTS AND EXPENSES].
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of the Expenses of the Director of Public Prosecutions, including the remuneration of his representative, and of the costs of prosecution on indictment, in like manner as the costs of the prosecution for felony in Ireland, and for crimes in Scotland are paid; and the payment, out of the Consolidated Fund, in the first instance, of any costs (not being costs of prosecution or indictment) payable by a county or borough, under the provisions of any Act of the present Session for the better prevention of Corrupt and Illegal Practices at Parliamentary Elections.
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Three o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Tramways Provisional Orders (No. 2) *(80); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 3) *(81).
Second Sending— Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders *(64); Constabulary and Police (Ireland) (Pay and Pensions) (75).
Report—Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London) *(31).
Third Reading—Poor Law Conferences * (65), and passed.

CONSTABULARY AND POLICE (IRELAND) (PAY AND PENSIONS) BILL.
(The Earl of Kimberley.)
CONSTABULARY AND POLICE (IRELAND) (PAY AND PENSIONS) BILL.

  (No. 75.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading read.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY, in moving that the Bill be now read a second
  1896
  time, said, it was the result of an examination into the pay and pensions of the Royal Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Police by two Commissions which had gone over to Ireland and inquired into the subject, its object being to improve the pay and pensions of both these Forces. He was certain the admirable services of the Irish Constabulary and the Dublin Police were so well known to all their Lordships that it was quite unnecessary he should say anything to commend the Bill to the House. No body of men could be more deserving of being treated justly and liberally by Parliament; and he believed the improved conditions as to pay and pensions contained in the Bill would prove satisfactory to the Force. He would conclude by moving the recond reading.
  Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a." —(The Earl of Kimberley.)
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House To-morrow.

MALTA—REFUGEES FROM EGYPT.

  MOTION FOR PAPERS.
  EARL DE LA WARR, in rising to move for—
  "Papers from the Government of Malta to the Colonial Secretary in connexion with residence and cost of maintenance in Malta of refugees from Egypt during the autumn of last year, and for all correspondence up to the present date,"
  said, he did not suppose that the noble Earl the Secretary of State for the Colonies (the Earl of Derby) would have any objection to laying the Papers upon the Table of the House. They referred to a matter of considerable interest to the Maltese people. It would be recollected by their Lordships that during the recent naval and military operations in Egypt, last summer, a large number of persons from that country were sent to Malta, in consequence of the serious events which were taking place, endangering life and causing the destruction of property. The number of refugees, he understood, amounted to between 17,000 and 18,000. By the liberal response to the appeal of the Lord Mayor, a sum of about £6,500 was sent to Malta from this country in aid of these distressed people; but a large sum was further needed to supply the

  1897
  pressing wants of those whom the consequences of war had rendered destitute; and, to meet these cases of urgent necessity, the local Government advanced £11,000, or thereabouts, out of the local Revenues, with the expectation that it would be repaid by the Imperial Government. It should be remembered that these persons, being British subjects, were sent from Alexandria to Malta—that was to say, they did not go there of their own free will or choice, but were compelled to leave Egypt by the authorities. They might have been sent elsewhere, say to Cyprus, or any other place more convenient; but they were sent to Malta, because, perhaps, many of them were Maltese. He wished to call the attention of the Government to these facts; and to ask them whether it would not be a great hardship upon the Maltese Government and people— an injustice as it seemed to him—to call upon them to pay for the consequences of a war which was entirely an Imperial question, and for which the Imperial Government was solely responsible? He begged to move for the Correspondence in the terms of his Notice on the Paper.
  Moved for—
  "Papers from the Government of Malta to the Colonial Secretary in connexion with residence and cost of maintenance in Malta of refugees from Egypt during the autumn of last year, and for all correspondence up to the present date."—(The Marl De La Warr.)
  THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, I have not the least objection to the production of copies or extracts from the Correspondence in question; indeed, I quite agree with the noble Earl opposite (Earl De La Warr) that, if we are to discuss these matters satisfactorily, we should do so more conveniently when we are in possession of the information moved for. But the fact is, the whole question really lies in the narrowest possible compass; and I do not know that the Papers will materially affect the view your Lordships will probably take of it. The facts are simply these. When the Egyptian disturbances began in June of last year, a very large number of British subjects—nearly the whole of them being natives of Malta, or connected by family or other ties with the Island— left Egypt, in consequence of the impossibility of their getting adequate protection in Alexandria. They were sent to Malta, and there the great ma-
  1898
  jority of them were maintained out of public money, partly supplied by private charity, and partly at the expense of the State. My noble Friend said some 17,000 or 18,000 persons were so sent; but those are higher figures than I have heard mentioned by anyone else. A statement which I hold, in my hand gives the number of refugees who had arrived by the beginning of July at something like 8,000, and the greater part of them must have arrived by that time. Some of these persons appear to have had independent means, or to have been supported by their friends, because only 6,600 odd received relief. Of these, 5,893, or nearly nine-tenths of the whole number, were Maltese, and only 460 who were British subjects, were other than Maltese. The importance of this point will presently be seen by your Lordships. The total expenditure connected with the removal and relief of these refugees was, in round numbers, £33,000. Of that sum, £15,000 was for transport, and it was entirely paid by the Imperial Government. The sum expended on relief was £18,000; and that was provided from various sources. There was a public subscription in London for the relief of these persons, which produced some £6,400, and there was a grant of £6,000 from the Imperial Treasury, and it is intended to leave about £5,700 as a charge upon the local Exchequer. The Vote has been before the Council; but the Council has not met, and the Vote has not yet been taken. My noble Friend objects to any part of the expenditure being thrown upon the local resources of the Island. To that my answer is three-fold. In the first place, out of the total expenditure of £33,000, we do not call upon Malta to pay more than about one-fifth or one-sixth; secondly, nearly all the refugees were connected with the Island. I quite agree that if they had had no connection with Malta, and had simply been taken there because it was the nearest place of safety, there would be no ground for charging the funds of the Island. But as that is not the case, and as nearly all are really Maltese, there is no injustice in calling upon the Island to contribute to the expenses incurred. In the third place, undoubtedly the finances of the Island and the industrial classes there gained I very much from the large expenditure

  1899
  of English money caused by the war. It is said that the refugees did not leave Egypt voluntarily, but were removed by order of the Government; but that is not quite accurate. It may be true as regards some of the refugees, no doubt; but the reason why they were removed was not to serve any purpose of Imperial policy, but because they could not, as I said, be protected adequately where they were at Alexandria. My noble Friend said some of these persons were not connected with Malta, and should not have been sent there; but my answer is that the great majority of them would have very good ground of complaint if they had been taken anywhere else. As I have said, these are the facts of the case. There will be no objection to give the Papers asked for; but the Motion 'should be amended, as it may be necessary to look through the Papers, and to select those which shall be laid on the Table of the House, omitting only those which concern private individuals, and are of no public interest.
  EARL DE LA WARRsaid, that instead of 17,000 or 18,000 as he had said, he should have given the number of Egyptian refugees as 7,000 or 8,000.
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONasked whether the Government of the Island had a surplus last year?
  THE EARL OF DERBY, in reply, said, he could not remember, and he was not Secretary of State for the Colonies at the time referred to.
  Motion amended, and agreed to.
  Address for—
  "Copies or extracts of Papers from the Government of Malta to the Colonial Secretary in connexion with residence and cost of maintenance in Malta of refugees from Egypt during the autumn of last year, and of correspondence up to the present date."—(The Earl De La Warr.)
  House adjourned at a quarter before Five o'clock, till To-morrow, a quarter past Ten o'clock.