Sitting of 27 February 1882

MINUTES.
NEW WRIT ISSUED—For Malmesbury, v. Walter Powell, esquire, deceased.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—Resolutions [February 24] reported.
WAYS AND MEANS—considered in Committee—£313,270, Consolidated Fund.
PUBLIC BILLS—Resolution in Committee—Ordered—First Reading—Licensing Laws (Scotland) * [86].
Ordered—First Reading—Bankruptcy Law Amendment * [87]; Dublin City (Highways) * [88]; Infectious Diseases Notification (Ire-laid) * [89]; Allotments* [90]; Poor Removal (Ireland) * [91].
Third Reading—Post Cards (Reply) [74], and

MOTION.
  IRISH LAND COMMISSION.

    MOTION FOR A RETURN.
    A Return ordered "of Proceedings of the Irish Land commission under 'The Land Law (Ireland) Act, 1881,' up to the 24th day of February 1882, inclusive."—(Mr. William Edward Forster.)
    Return presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 71.]

QUESTIONS.

  INDIAN ARMY COMMISSION.
  MR. E. STANHOPEasked the Secretary of State for India, Whether he is now prepared to publish portions of the Report of the Indian Army Commission, which was presented more than two years ago, and of which a summary long ago appeared in India; and also any Correspondence that may have taken place with the Government of India on the subject?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Sir, the Report of the Simla Army Commission, transmitted to this country in February, 1880, was not accompanied by any recommendations by the Government of India, nor were any received on which it was practicable to take any action until March, 1881. These recommendations departed in some important respects, both of kind and degree, from those of the Commission; and though they have engaged the earnest attention of myself and the Council of India, still no final decision has yet been come to on the leading proposals for the reorganization of the Indian Army, a subject which involves many considerations both of policy and of general administration. We are still engaged on these questions, and hope, at no distant date, to be able to submit to the House both the Report, or a great portion of it, and the Correspondence emanating from it. Until I can do this in a fairly complete form, I do not think it will be satisfactory to prepare any Papers for presentation to Parliament. The primary ground advanced for the appointment of the Commission was the urgent necessity for effecting economies in the military expenditure; and I am glad to say that in this respect I have been able to adopt, in some degree, the recommendations of the Government, and to authorize the Government of India to carry out reductions in effective charges to a very considerable amount.
  In reply to Mr. ONSLOW,
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, some of the reductions which were taking place would appear in the present Budget.

  COMMERCIAL RELATIONS WITH FRANCE-THE TREATY NEGOTIATIONS.
  MR. SLAGGdesired to give Notice that on Tuesday he would ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, What position this country occupies under the French Tariff on our exports to France?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: I think, Sir, that it will be convenient if I answer at once the hon. Member's Question. From communications which have passed since the date of my last reply, I am enabled to state that there was some doubt on Saturday apparently in the mind of some of those who have drawn up the French Bill, as to whether the French Bill which passed in the Lower House last week, and is waiting final sanction by the Senate to-day, actually and specifically renewed the English Treaties up to the 15th May, or whether it renewed the Treaties which grew out of the Cobden Treaty made subsequently between France and other countries, and those only. We are now assured by the French Government that the Conventions under which the trade will be conducted with France, from Wednesday next up to the 15th May, will not be those of the Cobden Treaty, which expires on Tuesday next; but will be the Conventions in force between France and all those other countries which have signed new Treaties with France. We have examined those Tariffs, and we find they are practically the same as ours. There is only one article on which there will be a higher duty than under the status quo, and that is an article in which no trade is done. With regard to the Navigation Treaties, we have reason to believe that Lord Lyons has signed, or will sign to-day, a Treaty continuing for 10 years the existing stipulations relating to navigation, treatment of subjects, trade marks, and the like—that is to say, all the questions besides tariff which are the subject of treaty at this moment.
  MR. STAVELEY HILL: Do I understand, Sir, that after Tuesday next we come under the "Most Favoured Nation" Clause under Belgian and other Treaties?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: The Belgian is the most important; but some of the other countries have more favourable terms in regard to certain articles.
  MR. BARRAN: I wish distinctly to understand whether from to-morrow till the 15th of May we shall be occupying the position of the status quo?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Till the 15th of May it will be the status quo; and, as I have said, the only exception will be one article, in which no trade whatever is done.

  TURKEY (FINANCE, &c.)—LOANS.
  SIR HENRY TYLERasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Her Majesty's Government will lay upon the Table further Papers on the subject of Ottoman loans, in continuation of previous Papers on the same subject, so as to complete their history down to the conclusion of the arrangements recently effected at Constantinople?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: There will be no objection, Sir, to producing the Papers for which the hon. Member asks.

  CALENDARS OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS—SCOTCH DEED OF HOMAGE.
  MR. FRASER-MACKINTOSHasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, Whether any and what control is exercised over the publication of the Calendars of Public Documents, and specially who is responsible for the publication of a work issued in 1881, entitled—" Calendar of Documents relating to Scotland, preserved in Her Majesty's Public-Record Office, London, vol. i., A.D., 1108–1272;"wherein the first document printed, and at length commented on in the Introduction (a Deed of Homage by the King of Scots to the King of England in 1065), has long been known to be a forgery; and, whether, being full of matter extraneous to what the title-page professes, he will order a work calculated to offend the people of Scotland to be cancelled?
  LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: Sir, an editor was appointed by the Treasury in 1879, after communicating with the then Lord Advocate, for the purpose of publishing abstracts or excerpts from the English public records of all documents connected with Scottish history from the earliest period down to the end of the reign of Henry VII. Necessarily, a very large discretion is left to the editor; and it would be
  1690
  obviously impossible for any Government Department to exercise more than a very general supervision over work of this nature. The present editor is a Fellow of the Scotch Society of Antiquaries and member of other learned Bodies. As regards the particular document referred to in the Question, no one reading either the introduction or the body of the book could be led to suppose it other than a forgery. For the opinions expressed in the introductions to this and other calendars of the same series, the authors and not Government are responsible. I should be sorry that Scotch national feeling should be offended in any way; but cannot think that, in the present instance, Government can be charged with doing so.

  THE LAW OFFICERS OF THE CROWN.
  SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, looking to the duties of the Law Officers of the Crown with reference to questions from time to time arising between this Country and Foreign Powers, as well as with reference to patents and other matters of public importance, he will take steps in consultation with the Treasury to provide a permanent office and small permanent staff for the Law Officers of the Crown?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I admit, Sir, the importance of the matter. I am in communication with the First Lord of the Treasury on the subject, and in a little time I may be able to give some information respecting it.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSION—KILMALLOCK COURTHOUSE.
  MR. M'COAN (for Mr. O'SULLIVAN)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If he is aware that the Sub-Commissioners of the Land Court could not hold their Court at Kilmallock on the day named by them (the 20th of this month), owing to the dilapidated state of the old Court House in that town; if the new Court House is finished, and if the county grand jury has paid for it; and, if so, why it is not given up for the use it was intended?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER, in reply, said, it was the fact. A now court house had been built, and the Grand Jury had paid for. it, but, in consequence of some legal

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  difficulty, had not yet taken possession of it. They would take it over, however, on the 25th of next month.

  CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACTS—SWINE FEVER.
  MR. JAMES HOWARDasked the Vice President of the Council, Whether the Veterinary Department, in respect of swine fever, which inflicts so much loss upon agricultural labourers, as well as farmers, can suggest means whereby this typhoid disease could be more effectually controlled or stamped out?
  MR. MUNDELLA: Sir, swine fever has decreased considerably since it was made a contagious disease under the Act, in December, 1878. During the year 1879, 2,765 outbreaks were reported, compared with 1,717 in 1881, and the number of animals returned affected in 1879 was 17,074, compared with 7,994 in 1881. The Privy Council have good reason to believe that if local authorities would carry out the duties imposed upon them by the Order for the slaughter of diseased animals, the declaration of infected places, and the prohibition or regulation of sales when disease is prevalent, the disease might soon be extinguished. The Privy Council propose to issue a Circular, calling the attention of the local authorities to the desirability of prompt and vigorous action in dealing with this disease.

  STATE OF IRELAND—THE LADIES' LAND LEAGUE.
  MR. REDMONDasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, If he is aware that the Judges in the Court of Queen's Bench in Ireland refused inquiry into the circumstances connected with the sentences of imprisonment passed on members of the Ladies' Land League, on the ground that the statute of Edward III. gave magistrates power to call on persons to give bail, and that it was not necessary that any offence should be proved, but only that the persons should be suspected by the magistrates of being likely to commit an offence at some future date; and, whether persons imprisoned under this statute are debarred from the right they would have if tried and sentenced in the ordinary way at Petty Sessions of establishing their innocence by an appeal should their sentences exceed one month?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): Sir, the Court of Queen's Bench in Ireland has not refused inquiry into the circumstances connected with the sentences of imprisonment passed on members of the Ladies' Land League on the ground stated in the Question of the hon. Member, or at all. On the contrary, that Court, in the exercise of its ordinary jurisdiction, has reviewed the orders referred to in this Question, which required surety for good behaviour, and adjudicated both on their technical legality, and also whether the magistrates had, under the circumstances of the case, jurisdiction to make them. Such orders are not summary convictions, and, therefore, not the subject of the appeal mentioned in the Question, but are removable into the Queen's Bench, and are there reviewed.
  MR. REDMONDinquired if he had interpreted the Statute properly?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON), in reply, said, he had not. He had attributed to it a punitive character which it did not possess.
  MR. HEALYasked whether this Statute of Edward III. was not one of those which Mr. Justice Holker had scheduled in the Criminal Code Bill among those which ought to be repealed?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON), in reply, said, he did not know whether or not this was the case; but the Statute had been enforced both in England and Ireland until the present time, and magistrates acquired their jurisdiction in part from it, and in part from their Commission.

  PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—MR. JOSEPH SMITH.
  MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been lately drawn to the case of Mr. Joseph Smith, of Aughnacliff, in the county of Longford, who was arrested in last October, and sent to Dundalk Gaol, on a warrant charging him with being reasonably suspected of having incited other persons to intimidate other persons, with a view to prevent them from selling to and dealing with yet

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  other persons, none of the persons or classes of persons being named or distinctly described; and, whether, considering the nature of the charge, the condition of Mr. Smith's health, and the peaceful state of the county, he will direct that Mr. Smith shall either be brought to trial or released from prison?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER, in reply, said he could not at present recommend that Mr. Joseph Smith be released. He regretted to say that the district was not in such a satisfactory state as that represented by the hon. Member. The only resident landlord there was completely "Boycotted"—the only servants he had being strangers. With regard to the state of Mr. Smith's health, the medical officer of Dundalk Gaol stated that he had been suffering from a mild form of dyspepsia, accompanied by sleeplessness. The former complaint had, to a great extent, left him, and he had increased in weight since his imprisonment more than a stone and a half.

  CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACT—FOOT-AND-MOUTH DISEASE.
  COLONEL KINGSCOTEasked the Vice President of the Council, Whether the attention of the Privy Council has been called to a fresh outbreak of foot and mouth disease in the parish of Holbrook, in Suffolk; and, whether it can be traced to animals having been brought in control with London manure, which was brought on to the farm on which they were?
  MR. MUNDELLA: A Return, Sir, of an outbreak of foot and-mouth disease at Holbrook, in Suffolk, was received on the 21st instant, and the local Inspector remarked that the outbreak was attributed to a cargo of London manure recently delivered from a barge. On inquiry it was ascertained that the manure consisted of sweepings from the streets of the Metropolis. The owner of the animal states that there is no proof that the outbreak was caused by this manure, and his view is supported by the fact that there is no foot-and-mouth disease in the Metropolis.

  PRISONS (IRELAND)—MONAGHAN PRISON.
  MR. REDMONDasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If his attention has been called to certain complaints respecting
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  the sanitary arrangements in Monaghan Prison; and, if he has made an investigation into the matter?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER, in reply, said that no complaint had been received, either by the Government or by the Prisons Board, as to the sanitary arrangements in Monaghan Prison, except that contained in the letter of the hon. Member. He had communicated with the Prisons Board, who stated that they believed the sanitary arrangements of the prison to be satisfactory. Until 1877 all those prisons were under the control of the Grand Juries of the respective counties, and supposed to be perfectly suitable for the detention of tried and untried prisoners and debtors. The amount of mortality in them had been singularly small.
  MR. REDMONDinquired if the right hon. Gentleman had made inquiries into the specific complaints contained in the letter he had sent him?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER, in reply, said he had forwarded the letter with orders to have inquiries made.

  NAVY—THE ROYAL DOCKYARDS—SHEERNESS DOCKYARD.
  MR. PEMBERTONasked the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether it is true that all the hired workmen employed in Sheerness Dockyard have been put on short time with a corresponding reduction in their wages, although a considerable quantity of work in the Yard still remains unfinished; and, whether this course is taken in consequence of any decision of the Lords of the Admiralty permanently to reduce the establishment or entirely to close the Yard?
  MR. TREVELYAN: Sir, the Captain Superintendent of Sheerness, finding that the Yard was a little short of money, determined to give the men a compulsory half-holiday on two weeks, as a preferable alternative to discharging 40 of their number. He had taken this course on his own responsibility, and on the question being brought to the notice of the Admiralty, orders have been sent to Sheerness that work may go on as usual.

  INDIA—THE SALT DUTY—CHESHIRE SALT.
  MR. WILBRAHAM EGERTONasked the Secretary of State for India, Whe-

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  ther, in the present improved condition of the revenues of India, he is prepared to urge upon the Indian Government the reduction of the differential duties now levied on Cheshire salt; or, if not, when the finances of India will allow of the complete equalization of the Salt Duties?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON, in reply, said, that the question had engaged the attention of the Government of India; but it would be impossible for him, so shortly before the announcement of the Indian Budget, to enter into any details on the subject. He must, therefore, ask the hon. Member to put off his Question until the Budget Statement was made.

  PARLIAMENTARY CONSTITUENCIES—REGISTER OF VOTERS.
  MR. BRYCEasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, considering the judgment recently given by the Court of Appeal in the case of "Kirby v. Biffen," "and the difficulties in which the Law as declared by that judgment places the overseers in making up the register of Parliamentary voters, it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to introduce any measure for further defining the qualification which is to entitle an occupier of rooms in a house to be placed upon the register, or for directing the overseers as to the manner in which they should make up the register?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT, in reply, said, that, important as that matter undoubtedly was, he was afraid that, in the present state of things, the Government was not able to undertake any further legislative engagements than those which they had already undertaken.

  NAVY—THE ROYAL MARINES.
  SIR HENRY FLETCHERasked the Secretary to the Admiralty, with reference to the re-organization scheme for the Royal Marines, and to the answer given on the 4th August, 1881, by the Secretary to the Admiralty—
  "That no one who is to be benefited by the alterations to be made in the Royal Marine forces will saffer by the delay in bringing then about,"
  why the promotions of the 3rd December 1881 of the officers filling the va-
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  cancies of those retired by those alterations were not dated 1st July 1881, as by their not being so dated they are superseded by a large number of officers of the Army who were their juniors in length of service?
  MR. TREVELYAN: Sir, in the opinion of the Board of Admiralty the words which the hon. and gallant Member has quoted applied only to the promotions of lieutenants, captains, and others, which were made for the distinct purpose of benefiting the corps of Royal Marines. The case of the officers to whom the hon. and gallant Member refers is, in the opinion of the Board, different. They were promoted in consequence of the compulsory retirement of two officers who had been passed over for promotion—an arrangement which had been made for military reasons, and not for the purpose of benefiting the corps.
  In reply to Captain PRICE,
  MR. TREVELYANsaid, it was not at this moment very easy to explain the difference; but it consisted in these promotions having been made in consequence of a clause in the Order of Council.
  SIR HENRY FLETCHERgave Notice that, on going into Supply on the Navy Estimates, he would call attention to that subject.

  LAW AND POLICE—FALSE WEIGHTS.
  MR. MACFARLANEasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been called to the cases of several stall-keepers charged at the Marylebone Police Court with having false weights, in some instances the supposed pound weighing less than twelve ounces, who, upon conviction, were fined sums varying from forty shillings to five pounds; and, whether he is prepared to recommend or introduce any change in the Law which permits the infliction of twenty years' penal servitude for the theft of a soldier's medal, and only allows a maximum fine of five pounds for defrauding the poorest and most helpless of Her Majesty's subjects?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT, in reply, said, he had no intention of proposing any alteration in the law such as that referred to in the hon. Member's Question.

  POOR LAW—VAGRANCY.
  SIR BALDWYN LEIGHTONasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether his attention has been called by several unions to the alarming increase of vagrancy; whether he is aware that many of such vagrants have served in the Army under the new short service system; and, if not, whether he will cause an inquiry to be made into the matter; and, what answer the Local Government Board has sent to the different unions, and what steps the Government propose to take in the matter?
  MR. DODSON: Sir, my attention has been called by several Unions to the increase of vagrancy, and I have made inquiries of the Inspectors on the subject, and it appears that while in several parts, especially in the Midland and Eastern Counties, there has been a considerable increase, in others there has been, not only no perceptible increase, but an actual diminution. So far as any reliable information can be obtained, it seems that several of the vagrants have served in the Army; but, as a rule, the Workhouse Reports do not show who have been soldiers, or for what period they have served. I have promised the different Unions to give my attention to the subject, and the Board have been, and now are, engaged in obtaining information to enable them to determine what alterations, if any, are needed in the law.

  EDUCATION DEPARTMENT (SCOTLAND) —THE EDUCATION CODE.
  MR. GRANTasked the Vice President of the Council, Whether it is the intention of the Education Department to make any alteration in the Scotch Educational Code during the present year?
  MR. MUNDELLA: Sir, the Scotch Code will be laid on the Table on Monday next: and it is considered undesirable to make any changes in it this year.

  ENGLAND AND FRANCE—THE CHANNEL TUNNEL SCHEME.
  SIR ALEXANDER GORDONasked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether Her Majesty's Government will provide against the risks attending
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  detached works of defence, as well as the expense of their construction, by requiring that the English mouth of the proposed Cannel Tunnel shall be within the effective range of the guns of the existing fortifications at Dover; and, whether he will lay upon the Table of the House a copy of any conditions or restrictions which he, or his predecessors, may have imposed upon the "Channel Tunnel Company" as required by the Act of 1875, c. 190, and the Act of 1881, c. 195, which provide that no experimental operations shall be commenced without the previous consent in writing of the Board of Trade?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: Sir, with regard to the first part of the hon. Gentleman's Question, I may remind him that some few days ago my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War informed the House that it was his intention to appoint a Scientific Committee—which, I am informed, he has since appointed—to consider the military, chemical, and engineering questions involved in the proposal to render the Channel Tunnel absolutely useless to an enemy in the time of war, or apprehended war. As soon as the Government obtain the Report of that Committee they will then proceed to consider, with the assistance of military advisers, the wider military questions involved, and will then, no doubt, be in a position to advise the House of Commons on the subject. With regard to the second part of the Question, I have to point out that there are two Acts of Parliament on the subject to which the hon. Gentleman refers, having reference to different undertakings. The Act of 1875 constituted the Channel Tunnel Company, and contained a provision such as that which he has quoted; but the experimental operations have never been commenced by that Company, and their compulsory powers having lapsed, they are now before the House with other proposals. Under these circumstances, the Board of Trade is not called on to interfere. In regard to the Act of 1881, that was the rival undertaking of the South-Eastern Railway, and does not contain any provision giving the Board of Trade power to interfere with experimental operations; but it does contain the usual condition making the assent of the Board of Trade necessary for any dealing with the foreshores under their management. A legal ques-

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  tion has arisen as to whether the foreshore is in the management of the Board of Trade. The South-Eastern Railway Company contend that they have purchased it from the owner, and are claiming adversely to the Crown. I intend to consult the Law Officers of the Crown on the point. At the present time the workings of the Channel Tunnel have not gone below low-water mark. If they proceed to the three-mile territorial limit there is no doubt the Crown would have the right to interfere if it was thought necessary to do so.
  LORD EUSTACE CECILasked, whether the right hon. Gentleman would now state the constitution of the Scientific Committee?
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, he might be allowed to reply, so far as he could, to the Question. He could not give the names of the gentlemen appointed; but he might say that the Committee consisted of three Royal Engineers, two Artillerists, and two Civil Engineers—gentlemen of great eminence in connection with explosives—under the chairmanship of Sir Archibald Alison.
  LORD EUSTACE CECILsaid, he would ask for the names to-morrow.

  PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—TREATMENT OF PRISONERS.
  MR. REDMONDasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If it is a fact that on the 18th January last a lady and gentleman made application to pay a professional visit in Kilmainham to Dr. Joseph Cardiff, who for twenty years had been their medical attendant; whether such application was refused, and that eventually the visit had to take place in the ordinary cage, and in presence of two warders, and was useless from a professional point of view; and, whether he will, in accordance with the pledges given last Session, as far as possible, give facilities to prisoners to carry on their business or profession?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: The statement contained in the hon. Member's Question is correct. Dr. Cardiff was not permitted to see two visitors except in the presence of two warders. The Governor was justified in not permitting the interview to take place except under such circumstances. There have been exceptional cases in which private visits
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  have been allowed; but it has been found-that they are bad precedents to make, as it is impossible for them to take place without disorganizing the discipline of the prison.
  Subsequently,
  MR. BIGGARasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If he is aware that the political "suspects" in Kilmainham and other prisons in Ireland, who are living on the fare allowed by the prison authorities, are debarred from supplementing such prison allowance by the purchase by "suspects" of butter, eggs, &c.; and if such rule will be relaxed?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: The rule is as the hon. Member has stated. Any prisoner must give notice if he desires to supply himself with food. It was found necessary to make this rule for the convenience of the prison arrangements.
  MR. HEALY: Is this rule one of the 18 rules made by the Lord Lieutenant?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: Yes.

  PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—SEARCHES FOR ARMS.
  MR. O'CONNOR POWERasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If he will inform the House on what grounds the sub-inspector of Ballina, aided by a large force of military and police, searched the houses of a number of the principal merchants of that town on Thursday the 16th instant; if it is a fact that the police did not discover anything to justify this proceeding; and, whether His Excellency the Lord Lieutenant has, in accordance with the prayer of a memorial from the Town Commissioners, ordered an inquiry into the matter?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: Sir, the searches alluded to by the hon. Member were made upon information received. We had grounds for making the search. With reference to the inquiry spoken of, I have received a telegram from the County Inspector stating that such inquiry has been made. The search was made upon private information supplied to the Sub-Inspector of Police. It was made as quietly as possible, and in such a manner as to cause the least possible annoyance and inconvenience.
  MR. SEXTON: Were any arms discovered?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: There were no arms found; but it is a very difficult matter to find arms. While, however, one house was being searched a small keg of revolvers was removed to a house to search which the Inspectors had not got a warrant.
  MR. O'CONNOR POWERwished to know the authority the right hon. Gentleman had for that statement?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: The information of the Sub-Inspector who conducted the search.
  MR. O'CONNOR POWERsaid, that person was doubtless interested in the matter. There was no course open to him, in view of that statement, but to take the earliest possible opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the whole facts of the case.

  DEPARTMENT OF WOODS AND FORESTS—THE ZOOLOGICAL GARDENS.
  DR. LYONSasked the First Commissioner of Works, If he can inform the House under what conditions the Royal Zoological Society holds the grounds now occupied by them in the Regent's Park?
  MR. SHAW LEFEVRE: Sir, the Zoological Society hold their grounds in Regent's Park from the Commissioners of Woods and Forests on a yearly tenancy. The rental is £270 per annum.

  THE VATICAN—DIPLOMATIC INTERCOURSE—MR. ERRINGTON.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether, at the termination of Mr. Errington's excursion to Rome, Her Majesty's Government intend to take steps to establish any permanent diplomatic relations with the Papal See?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: In reply to the hon. Member's Question, Sir, I can only repeat what I have already stated in this House, that Her Majesty's Government have no intention of recreating the post which was abolished on Mr. Jervoise's withdrawal from Rome in 1874.

  IRISH LAND COMMISSION—DECISIONS OF THE SUB-COMMISSIONERS.
  MR. BIGGARasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, How many Appeals had been lodged up
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  till 28th January last to the decisions of the Sub-Commissioners?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: Sir, up to the 28th of January last 550 appeals had been lodged against the decisions of the Sub-Commissioners. The number of decisions up to that day was 1,313. I may say that I have laid upon the Table of the House Papers giving particulars of the appeals lodged up to the 24th of this month.

  STATE OF IRELAND—ATTACK ON BAILIFFS.
  SIR HERVEY BRUCEasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If his attention has been drawn to a paragraph in the "Belfast Newsletter" of February 23rd, stating, that, on previous day, four sheriffs' bailiffs were attacked in the county of Tyrone in the discharge of their duties, information having been given of their presence by the children who turned out of a neighbouring school; and, if so, whether he can say whether the statement is correct?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: Sir, the accounts contained in the newspapers are in some respect exaggerated. No attack was made on the bailiffs, and the police distinctly deny that the schoolchildren were turned out of the neighbouring school, and say that the contrary was the case, and that they heard the schoolmaster order them into the school.

  THE STRAITS SETTLEMENTS—BISHOP OF LABUAN.
  MR. CAINEasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether there will be laid before Parliament the Despatch of Lord Kimberley to Sir F. A. Weld, the Governor of the Straits Settlement, dated September 30th, 1881, relative to the status of the Bishop of Labuan, and recommending the discontinuance of ecclesiastical grants in those settlements?
  MR. COURTNEY: There is no objection to the production of the despatch.

  THE FISHERY BOARD (SCOTLAND).
  MR. WILLIAMSONasked the Lord Advocate, Whether he will take steps so that the filling up of the vacant Secretaryship of the Fishery Board in Scotland may be delayed until consi-

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  deration shall have been given to the question; and, whether that Board cannot be made more useful to the general interests of the Fisheries of Scotland?
  THE LORD ADVOCATE (Mr. J. B. BALFOUR): I have to say, in answer to the hon. Member, that the appointment to which he refers does not rest with the Government, but with the Fishery Board, to whom the fact of this Question having been put will be duly communicated.

  POST OFFICE—FEMALE POSTAL AND TELEGRAPH CLERKS.
  MR. W. J. CORBETasked the Postmaster General, If the female clerks and telegraphists employed in his department have given general satisfaction by their intelligence and efficiency in the discharge of their duties; whether, looking to the great importance, in a social point of view, of enlarging the field of female employment, he will, as occasion offers, throw open all the appointments in the Postal and Telegraph services that are suitable for females but are now reserved exclusively for men; and, whether, as vacancies occur, he will promote to some at least of the higher offices women who have given proof of their capacity and fitness for the discharge of the higher duties?
  MR. FAWCETT: Sir, in reply to the hon. Member for the county of Wick-low, I am glad to be able to say that the female clerks and telegraphists employed by the Post Office have given general satisfaction. So much is this the case that the employment of women has been gradually and steadily extended. Any claims that they have to promotion will be carefully considered, and I can readily give an assurance that I shall lose no opportunity of still further extending the employment of women whenever it can be done with advantage to the Public Service.

  PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT, 1881—PROCLAMATION OF THE COUNTY WICKLOW.
  MR. W. J. CORBETasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, with reference to the charge delivered by the County Court Judge at Wicklow on the 20th January 1882, in which he congratulated the grand jury in the most emphatic terms on the peace-
  1704
  ful condition of the eastern division of the county, adding, as regards the western division—
  "There were but two criminal cases there which were referred back to the assizes, leaving not a single case to go before the grand jury, and there was no criminal business whatever in the town of Baltinglass;"
  Whether his attention has been called to the Return of Agrarian Crime for 1881, since issued to Members, from which it appears that, excepting thirty-four threatening letters, only eleven offences, none of them being offences against the person, are recorded against the County Wicklow for the twelve months; whether his attention has been called to the Return, just issued, of the amounts levied in the several counties in Ireland for malicious injuries in 1881, from which it appears that the sum levied off Wicklow County was only £25, as against an average of £694 for every other county in Ireland; and, whether, on reconsideration of all the circumstances, he will now advise the Lord Lieutenant to revoke, as provided by the Acts 44 Vic, chapters 4 and 5, the Orders in Council under which the County Wicklow was proscribed and proclaimed?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER, in reply, said, he had previously answered a Question of the hon. Member's as to the state of Wicklow, and he could only repeat the answer now. The County Wicklow had been proclaimed. [Mr. W. J. CORBET: Upon what grounds?] It would take too long to state the grounds; but it was proclaimed because the Government thought it necessary to do so. It was a notorious fact that there was a great amount of "Boycotting" and intimidation, which made it necessary for the Government to take steps.
  MR. HEALY: Has not the right hon. Gentleman stated that "Boycotting" is not a crime?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: "Boycotting," when accompanied by intimidation, is a crime.

  PARLIAMENT—PRIVILEGE—RETUR OF MICHAEL DAVITT FOR MEATH.
  MR. GREGORYasked Mr. Attorney General, If Michael Davitt, lately returned as Member for Meath, can, having regard to his present position, legally take his seat in this House; whether such return is void; and, whether a new writ must issue?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES): Sir, I hope the House will excuse me from answering the first part of the Question placed on the Paper, because that is a Question which the House must answer for itself, and that almost immediately. The usual course in relation to cases where a person convicted of felony is returned to the House is for the House to receive legal information of such convictions by a Report of the same being laid on the Table. In the case of Michael Davitt, a copy of his conviction will be laid on the Table in the course of the evening, and the matter so arising will be one of Privilege. If the House sees no objection a Motion will be made to-morrow, I believe, for a new Writ.
  MR. R. POWERwished to ask a Question he had put before, Whether the result of the Meath election had been communicated to the hon. Member for Meath?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I am unable to say.
  MR. GORSTwished to know, whether, in the document alluded to by the hon. and learned Gentlemen the Attorney General, it was stated that the Member elected to serve was a convicted felon; and, if so, whether such return was not void?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: That Question has been already answered. The document will be laid on the Table this evening, and come in proper form under the cognizance of the House, when a Motion is made on the subject. It would be irregular to deal with it until the fact of the conviction can be substantiated by documents instead of by word of mouth.
  MR. GORSTsaid, that the hon. and learned Gentleman had seen the return, and knew what it contained; and he wanted to know if there was any necessity for the House waiting?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid, that when the record of the conviction was laid upon the Table the matter could be discussed.
  MR. HEALY: I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department, or the Prime Minister, Whether, before the issue of the new Writ, the usual precedent will be followed, and the hon. Member for Meath be afforded the opportunity given to Mr. Bradlaugh to himself appear at
  1706
  the Bar of the House in order that he may be heard in his own defence?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT, in reply, said that the question was one which it was for the House and not for him to decide.
  MR. CALLAN: I beg to ask the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Why is it that the precedent set in this House in 1870 in the case of O'Donovan Rossa, and in 1875 in the case of John Mitchel, is not followed in the present case—that formal notice should be given with regard to the conviction, and should be laid upon the Table of the House?
  [No reply.]

  DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS WITH MEXICO.
  MR. ALDERMAN W. M'ARTHURasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If any negotiations have been entered into for the resumption of diplomatic relations between Great Britain and the Republic of Mexico, and what progress, if any, has been made in such negotiations?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Sir, confidential unofficial conversations have taken place between Her Majesty's Ambassador and M. Velasco, the Mexican Representative at Paris, on this subject; but they have not hitherto had any result.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING ACTS—BOARD OF TRADE INQUIRIES.
  MR. JAMES STEWARTasked the President of the Board of Trade, If he will cause arrangements to be made by which in future inquiries into the loss of merchant ships shall be conducted as near as reasonably can be to the domicile of the parties chiefly interested, so as to avoid the inconvenience and expense, as well as dissatisfaction, occasioned in such a case as that of the "Culzean," where the witnesses and others concerned, though nearly all residing in Scotland, were called from. Greenock and Dundee to attend a Court held in Liverpool?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: In answer, Sir, to my hon. Friend, I have to state I agree entirely with the opinions indicated in the Question, that the inquiries referred to should be held where the Court would be most conveniently placed

  1707
  for the majority of the parties interested. But where, as in the ease of the Culzean, there was unfortunately a deplorable loss of life, it would be clearly invidious to plane them before local magistrates, who are largely interested in shipping. Under ordinary circumstances, the Wreck Commissioner would hold the inquiry; but, in this instance, he had a large number of fixtures, and it appeared unwise to delay the inquiry. I hope that in the future arrangements will be made by which the removal of these cases may be avoided.

  STATE OF IRELAND—EVICTED FAMILIES.
  MR. REDMONDasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he is aware that eighteen families in the county of Limerick recently applied for admission to the workhouse, and were informed that there was not sufficient accommodation for them; and, whether, in view of the largely increasing number of evictions in Ireland occurring since the passage of the Land Act, he intends to take any steps to extend the provisions for relief of evicted families?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: Sir, in answer to the hon. Member's Question, I am informed that it is a fact that these families have been evicted, and that the Guardians of the district have provided relief for some of them, while others are to go into the workhouse, or have their cases considered by the Board. I am glad to see by a paragraph in The Daily Express that the tenants have arranged with their landlord, and are to be reinstated in their farms as caretakers.
  MR. O'DONNELLsubsequently intimated that on Thursday he would ask, Whether the threatened evictions of 600 tenants and their families in County Donegal would be carried out with the co-operation of the Government; and, whether the Government were taking any steps to provide relief and shelter for the 3,000 women and children who would thereby be deprived of their homes and their means of livelihood?

  INLAND REVENUE—BEER AND WINE LICENCES IN IRELAND.
  MR. BIGGARasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he has any objection to retailers of beer and wine
  1708
  in Ireland, who paid the duties on wine and beer licences in April and October respectively, being granted wine licences for the half-year April to October next, so that these traders may avail themselves of the combined beer and wine licence specified in "The Revenue Act, 1880," and which is payable in October?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, (Mr. GLADSTONE): Sir, my reply to the hon. Gentleman must be that we have no power to issue half-yearly licences under the Licensing Act. It would be a question of an alteration of the law for the purpose.

  UNIVERSITY OF OXFORD—THE STATUTES.
  MR. J. G. TALBOTasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether he is aware that a large number of statutes affecting the University of Oxford and the Colleges therein, which were laid upon the Table on the 7th of February, have not yet been printed; whether the time within which an address to Her Majesty from either House of Parliament may be presented will be counted from the day on which such statutes were laid upon the Table; and, whether, in that case, he will give facilities for the consideration of any statutes which may be objected to?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, with regard to the printing of the statutes and the time within which an address may be presented to Her Majesty, I have no means of information except those open to my hon. Friend. If by "facilities for the consideration of any statutes which may be objected to" the hon. Member means days at the disposal of the Government, I have to say that the Government have no days which they can afford to spare for the purpose mentioned.

  MAINTENANCE OF MAIN ROADS (SCOTLAND).
  SIR DONALD CURRIEasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether the relief which he proposes to afford in England with respect to the maintenance of Main Roads will apply to Scotland?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER (Mr. GLADSTONE): Sir, with regard to this Question, which is whether

  1709
  the plan of the Government with regard to main roads applies to Scotland as well as to England, I should like, with my hon. Friend's permission, to answer it in somewhat general terms. I conceive that the engagement we have given is this—that we shall endeavour to deal fully and satisfactorily with the case of Scotland during the present year, as much as with the case of England, and upon the same principles. With regard to the particular form and method of relief, I think it would be better to reserve our discretion until we come into closer contact with the question.

  LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (IRELAND)—DR. KENNY.
  DR. LYONSasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, a Question of which he had given him private Notice, as to Whether the Government has come to any decision respecting Dr. Kenny's eligibility for the post of medical officer to a Board of Guardians for which he is a candidate?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: Sir, the House may recollect that this question came up on Thursday, and I find that Dr. Kenny's office has not been filled up. The election will take place at the end of this month, and I need not repeat what I said on the subject. If the Board of Guardians apply for the assent of the Local Government Board to Dr. Kenny's full nomination, that assent will be given; and should Dr. Kenny be elected no objection will be offered.
  MR. GRAYwished to ask the right hon. Gentleman, whether the sealed order of Dr. Kenny's dismissal would be withdrawn, because while that remained the Local Government Board should recognize it, and could not sanction Dr. Kenny's appointment?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: The sealed order will not be withdrawn, as that would be an admission, not justified by the circumstances of the case, that it was not within our duty to issue it. The hon. Member for Carlow (Mr. Gray), I may add, has been entirely misinformed as to the effect of the sealed order. I have made inquiries, and I find it will not prevent Dr. Kenny's re-appointment.

MOTIONS.
  AGRARIAN OFFENCES (PROVINCES) (IRELAND).

    MOTION FOR A RETURN.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a Return be presented to this House by Provinces, of Agrarian Offences throughout Ireland reported to the Inspector General of the Royal Irish Constabulary between the 1st day of January 1881, and the 31st day of December 1881, showing the number of cases in which offenders were convicted; the number of cases in which persons were made amenable but not convicted; the number of cases in which accused are awaiting trial; and the number of cases in which offenders were neither convicted nor made amenable."—(Mr. William Edward Forster.)
    MR. HEALYasked, whether it was not usual for a Member who required a Return, especially where it contained so much contentious matter as this one, to give Notice of it, so that hon. Members having suggestions or objections to make could have the opportunity of making them? He wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman would not postpone the Motion he had now made until it came up upon the Paper of the House?
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, the Return was unopposed, and was simply in continuation of one voted last year, and that he had brought forward the Motion in the usual way. It was not customary to give Notice of unopposed Returns. It would be better that the Return should be granted at once.
    MR. O'DONNELLsaid, there was considerable objection in Ireland to the form in which these Returns were made out by the Chief Secretary for Ireland, and on that ground alone hon. Members ought to have Notice of the Motion.
    MR. MONKrose to Order. The hon. Gentleman was debating, not the Motion, but the principle upon which the Returns were drawn up.
    MR. O'DONNELLsaid, the hon. Member was quite mistaken. He hoped that most of the Return would be put upon the Paper.
    MR. SPEAKER: I beg to point out to the House that in this case the ordinary course had been pursued. The Minister responsible for the Return brought it up as an unopposed Return.
    MR. HEALY, on the point of Order, wanted to know how anybody was to know whether the Return was opposed or not, seeing it was not on the Paper, no opportunity was given of opposing it.
    MR. CHILDERSexplained that, in his experience of a great many years, when a Minister wished to lay upon the Table a Return which was not the subject of an Address to the Crown, the invariable rule was that the Minister should move it without Notice, and afterwards lay it upon the Table. He did not think the House would wish to depart from that rule.
    MR. CALLANdid not see why Ministers should be placed in an exceptional position.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORrose to Order. He wished to know whether, when the Question was put from the Chair, it was not competent for any hon. Member to express his reasons for dissenting from such a Motion as that which was now before the House?
    MR. SPEAKER: As I have just stated, the ordinary course has been pursued on this occasion, and the Question I shall have to put will be that the said Return do lie on the Table of the House. Any observations can be made upon that Motion; but I should point out that it would be most inconvenient that a discussion should arise before the Return itself is in the hands of Members.
    Motion agreed to.
    Return presented accordingly; to lie upon the Table, and to be printed. [No. 72.]

  PARLIAMENT—ORDERS OF THE DAY.

    MOTION FOR POSTPONEMENT.
    MR. GLADSTONE, in rising to move—
    "That the Orders of the Day be postponed until after the Notice of Motion relating to the Irish. Land Act,"
    said: In rising to submit to the House a preliminary Motion which is intended to clear the way for the principal and very important discussion which is before us, I should not have said a single word upon that preliminary Motion had it taken the usual course. But, two or three days ago, there appeared upon the Paper two Notices of opposition to this Motion, one of them from an independent Member of the House (Mr. A. J.
    1712
    Balfour), and the other from the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition (Sir Stafford Northcote). I have no means of knowing whether those Notices, especially the latter, are intended to signify that there is to be a real debate and division upon this preliminary Motion, or whether they are only intended, as may be the case, for the purpose of lodging a protest against the introduction of the other Motion. In that uncertainty, especially as I believe I have the right of reply upon this Motion, I will not trouble the House with what I think are very conclusive reasons why opposition ought not to be offered to a Motion of this kind, and I will entirely reserve myself upon that subject. But I will take the liberty of saying one word with respect to the subject that it is intended to introduce, simply because I believe that the tendency of the words that I shall use cannot possibly be to increase the dissension unhappily prevailing, even if they should fail to produce any substantive result in the direction of harmony. They are to this effect. Her Majesty's Government have not given a Notice through me of a Motion such as I have to submit to the House to-night without much consideration. They are very sensible of the inconveniences attaching to it, and, indeed, of the evils which go beyond the description of inconveniences. It is inconvenient in a high degree that even for a night, or possibly for more than a night, the interesting discussion which has already been commenced on the subject of the Procedure of the House should be postponed. That is, at any rate, an evil. An evil, however, of a far graver character, and one which Her Majesty's Government deeply feel, is that of exhibiting in the face of Ireland, and in the face of a Party in Ireland entertaining purposes which we think dangerous to the country, a division between the high authorities of the State—a division accompanied by more or less of suspicion, of imputation, and of reproach. We have felt so much, and we feel so much, the greatness of this evil that, although we have in our own minds considered that there is most serious objection to every description of inquiry into the working of the Land Act at the present moment as being premature and unseasonable, yet we were willing to waive every objection except that which ap-

    1713
    peared to us to be vital. One objection, however, we were not prepared to waive—and on the basis of what I am now saying was founded a declaration made by a noble Earl in "another place" on behalf of the Government a few nights ago—we cannot waive that objection in consequence of what we feel to be a higher duty, the radical and insurmountable objection we entertain to an inquiry by a Committee of Parliament, or by any tribunal or organ at the present time, into the judicial administration of the Land Act. That is the scope of the controversy that, I fear, may unhappily arise. We have been disposed, so far as we could compatibly with our deep convictions of primary duty to the public, to limit the scope of the objection which we have taken. We still remain so minded; and, if even at this moment, it were possible to hope that the judicial administration of the Land Act would be excluded—I mean really excluded, intelligibly excluded—by some declaration not less formal than that which has already set a Committee in Motion, we should still be prepared to accept that exclusion as warranting us in waiving the other objections we entertain to the appointment of that Committee, and consequently we should be prepared to desist from the fulfilment of the intention which I announced last week of asking the House to adopt the Resolution which I am about to move. I must, however, add that I have not the slightest reason to believe that there is any prospect of an accommodation being arrived at on such a basis as I have indicated, and if that be so I have no option but to persevere with the Motion which I now make. But upon this Motion for postponement I Bay nothing relevant to the discussion upon it, unless I shall find that necessity should arise. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by making the Motion of which he had given Notice.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That the Orders of the Day be postponed until after the Notice of Motion relating to the Irish Land Act."—(Mr. Gladstone.)
    SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I am perfectly ready to concede to the right hon. Gentleman that the course which I have taken on this occasion in giving Notice of opposition to a Motion, to be made on a Government night, that the Orders of the Day be postponed
    1714
    until after a particular Motion brought forward by Her Majesty's Government has been disposed of, is an unusual one, and I am not prepared to say whether there is any precise precedent for that course. I quite admit, however, that, as a general rule, it is not a course that anyone would be fairly entitled to take, when the Government, on a night appropriated to the Business of the Government, desires simply to arrange their Business in a way which appears to them the most convenient. I am perfectly well aware that that is the common precedent on the part of any Government, and under ordinary circumstances would naturally pass without challenge from the House; but I cannot help observing that the circumstances in which the Government have brought forward this Motion are not ordinary circumstances. The right hon. Gentleman said very fairly that if it had not been for the Notices given by myself and the hon. Member for Hertford (Mr. A. J. Balfour) he would have made this Motion without a word of explanation; and I certainly felt, knowing that would be the natural course for him to take, that it would have been improper and exceedingly inconvenient for the House to have decided upon this Motion, without some explanation being given by the Government with regard to it. and without some understanding being arrived at in reference to it. I wish to say, first of all with regard to that question which the right hon. Gentleman says he will touch upon hereafter, if necessary, but which I must touch upon at once, as I have no power of reply—I will say that although the arrangement of the Business is on a Government night primarily for the Government, yet that the House has some reason to be consulted, because we know that if a Government so arranges its Business as to run important matters into a corner, the only way out of it is by a demand for the sacrifice of the time of private Members, and therefore we have some interest in considering whether the Government are or are not taking a course which will lead to that result. I also think that, in the circumstances we are placed with regard to the discussion which was opened last week on the subject of the Rules of Procedure, the House had a right to ask why the Government should think it right to interrupt a discussion of such importance, a discus-

    1715
    sion to which they have been drawing the attention of the public for months, and which is the first and most pressing Business which can be entertained by the House—we have a right to ask why they put that aside, and interrupt that discussion for, it may be, a considerable time. These are reasons which induced me to think it right, at all events, to enter my protest. I have no intention to offer unreasonable opposition against its being assumed that the Government should, as a matter of course, postpone these Orders. But I am bound to say that, that being my feeling with regard to the general state of Business, and the particular position in which we stand, I gather from the observations which the right hon. Gentleman has just now addressed to the House that there is even an additional reason why we should not, at the present moment, pursue the course which he asks us to take. It must, of course, have occurred to everyone who hears me that the Motion which is intended presently to be brought before us, if we agree to this Resolution, is in the nature of a Resolution for passing a censure upon, or at all events of expressing a very decided disapprobation of, the course which has been taken by the other House of Parliament with regard to the appointment of a Committee to inquire into the working of the Irish Land Act. The right hon. Gentleman says that he is so conscious of the disadvantages that must result from such a condition of things as must be brought about by his Motion, and by a difference of opinion arising between the two great Branches of the Parliamentary Legislature, that he is prepared to abstain, as I understand it, from bringing forward that Motion if he could see his way to any arrangement that would exclude from the inquiry to be conducted by the Committee some portion of the subject, or a certain class of subjects, to which he has referred, embraced in the judicial administration of the Land Act. If that be the feeling of the right hon. Gentleman, I wish the House could see its way to take some steps to as certain whether that result can be accomplished. But such steps certainly cannot be taken in this House or by this House. As I understand it, the House of Lords have appointed a Committee upon this subject. We have the Order of Reference before us, and the names of those noble Lords
    1716
    who are to form it. I do not know whether the Committee has yet commenced its labours; but, at any rate, it shortly will do so, and it is obvious that any limitation or regulation of its proceedings is a matter which must now be arranged in and by the Committee itself, and that anything that passed in this House or any words used here could not at all alter the situation. I can imagine that if the Government made representations to those who form the Committee, any representation coming from Her Majesty's Government, and founded upon such a statement as this—that a certain class of inquiry must be injurious to the interest of good government in Ireland—the Committee would not ignore such representations, and that they would so conduct their inquiry as to avoid the evils which are threatened. But that is a matter which can only be settled by those who are in a position to say how that inquiry is to be conducted. There are numerous questions connected with the working of the Land Act, as to which, when we come to discuss the Motion, we shall be prepared to argue to demand some inquiry, of course in a way that would not be dangerous to the peace of the country. I have no doubt the Peers on the Committee are Men of that standing and character, that they would have regard to great questions affecting the good government of Ireland; and I have no doubt also that there is no fear they would so conduct their proceedings as in any way to interfere with the independent judicial administration of the Land Act. But the matter is, as I have said, one on which we have not the power in this House to come to any arrangement, or to make any statements which can in any way bind or affect the Committee. Under those circumstances, I wish to put it to the right hon. Gentleman and to the Government, whether they think it is desirable to proceed with the Motion they have given Notice of till they have an opportunity of satisfying themselves as to the mode in which the proceedings of the Committee will be carried on. Upon them will be the responsibility. If they think it right to challenge a discussion which, as we see by the Notices on the Paper, will necessarily lead to a prolonged and, it may be, important discussion—upon them lies the responsibility.
    MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, it is only fair to the right hon. Gentleman and the House that I should at once play my last card and use the privilege of reply, so as to put the House in the exact possession of what I conceive to be the position before us. The right hon. Gentleman first asks—"Why do you propose to postpone the debate on Procedure which you put before the country as a matter of the utmost importance, and even of urgency?" My answer is, that even that matter of urgency has to be put aside for one of still greater urgency. That which is directly connected with the restoration of tranquillity and order in Ireland—[Laughter from Home, Rule Members]—or which we think to be so, is evidently possessed of a higher claim, not upon those who do not think so, but upon us, than the considerations—the very important considerations—connected with the question of Procedure. That is my answer to the inquiry made for the opposite side. Now, let us see what is the position as described by the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman says that nothing can now be done in this matter excepting by the Committee of the House of Lords; that he has full confidence in that Committee; and that he is convinced that if Her Majesty's Government make proper applications to it, the Committee will take care so to regulate its proceedings that none of the inconveniences which we apprehend will arise. I beg to say that it appears to me that the process recommended by the right hon. Gentleman would be alike unseemly, irregular, and ineffectual. Her Majesty's Government have felt it their duty, through those of their Members who are Members of the House of Lords, entirely to decline serving on the Committee, and Her Majesty's Government have no organ before that Committee. But I have a much greater objection. It is not the business, Sir, of the Queen's Government—it is not the business of the Executive of this country, charged with a responsibility—at this moment the most solemn and fearful responsibility—for the peace of Ireland, to make applications to any Committee whatsoever that may be appointed. And, further, if these applications were made, they must be applications to the effect that the Committee should deliberately exclude from its province the judicial administration of
    1718
    the Land Act. How can the Committee do that? The Committee would be going entirely beyond its powers. That Committee has been appointed by the Mouse of Lords to examine into the whole administration of the Land Act, and it would be an act of presumption on the part of any Committee if, when the House has intrusted to it the charge of investigating the whole of an important subject, it were of its own motion, and without reference to the House—without any limitation of the Order of Reference—to say, "That which is the heart, the centre, the soul of the whole thing, we will by our own subordinate authority exclude from the trust which the superior authority has submitted to us." Under these circumstances, it must be clear to the House that such a mode of proceeding is wholly out of the question. The Motion that I am about to make to-night is not new; takes no one by surprise. It is substantially in accordance with a declaration which has been made "elsewhere" some few days back—a declaration which I believe, unless I am very much mistaken, has found an echo in the minds of many thoughtful and considerate men who are not associated with the political Party to which I have the honour to belong. There has been abundant time for us all to test our minds and our thoughts upon this subject; and as regards an investigation into the judicial administration of the Land Act, we cannot, under any circumstances, or in any form, measure, or degree, be parties to it. It would shake to its foundation that confidence in the Act which we have been happily enabled to engender in the minds of the Irish people—["No, no!"]—not of all Irishmen; but I think I am justified in saying "the Irish people," by the fact of 70,000 applications having been made to the Land Courts. And if the effect of the inquiry be to shake the confidence in these 70,000 only, we are not prepared to accede to it. That is my deliberate answer. I think I may spare the House any arguments upon the general propriety of the opposition to the Motion for postponement, because the right hon. Gentleman has not taken that ground. He has not offered any serious opposition to the Motion. On the contrary, he made a frank admission that he did not know of any precedent precisely bearing out such a proceeding.

    1719
    I admit there have been precedents, sometimes extemporaneous objections taken by independent Members of the House, and one rather remarkable case, in which the Motion was not only opposed, but rejected by a majority. That was a case in the Government of Sir Robert Peel, when the Government proposed not to take a subject which it had itself submitted for discussion, but to set aside all its own Business to make way for an independent Member who had a Motion to submit. That, we, feel is not a parallel case. There can be no doubt that the Rule of the House is a uniform one. It would be vain for the House to commit to the Government the valuable privilege of arranging the Business on Monday and Thursday evenings, if those evenings are to be occupied in discussing the question whether the Government are to have the arrangement of their Business or not. The responsibilities of Office could not be borne on such terms. But, after what has been said, I do not think there is any occasion to prosecute that portion of the subject. Had the right hon. Gentleman, even at this very late hour, given us any reason to hope that, in his judgment, there would be a disposition under all the circumstances to exclude from the inquiries of the Committee the judicial administration of the Land Act, no feeling of self-love, no disposition to adhere precisely to our own ground, would have acted upon us for a moment; but we should have been ready even now to avoid this great and, as I may call it, national evil of exhibiting dissension in the face of facts such as exist in Ireland. But I have no choice but to persevere in the line of conduct which I have already foreshadowed.
    MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that in the course of the discussions on the Land Bill, he ventured to state that the effect of that measure would be to destroy the freehold of all property let or leased in Ireland, and to convert it into a feudal tenure under the Crown—that virtually the landowner who let or leased his land in Ireland would become a feudal tenant of the Grown, instead of being a freeholder; and they had now a further exemplification of the truth of the observation to which he had referred in what was now occurring. The right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury had emphatically declared that the House of Lords was precluded from
    1720
    entering upon an inquiry into the judicial administration of landed property in Ireland, with respect to tenure and with respect to rent. Hence, it was clear that the right hon. Gentleman was endeavouring to inflict a new incapacity upon the House of Lords. They all knew that the limits of the functions of the House of Lords were tested in the year 1860 on the question of the Paper Duties. He had looked back to the debates and to the decision of Parliament in that case, and he found that while the House of Lords might reject a Bill for imposing taxes, and might reject a Bill for the removal of taxes, they had no right to alter a Tax Bill which had been sent to them from the Commons. Let the House, then, observe the analogy. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister intended to extend the disability of the House of Lords, which had hitherto been held only to the alteration of Tax Bills, to any dealing with the judicial power, the feudal power, which was now established under the operation of the Land Act for the disposal of all property let or subject to lease in Ireland. He hoped the House would excuse him for once more drawing its attention to this point. Indeed, there were two points involved—first, an illustration of the change effected in the tenure of landed property in Ireland; and next, an attempt to extend the incapacity of the House of Lords, which had hitherto been limited to altering Tax Bills—to extend that incapacity to dealing with what the right hon. Gentleman called the judicial administration of landed property in Ireland. He (Mr. Newdegate) trusted that in the few words he had spoken he had as tersely as possible explained to the House the double issue which had been raised by the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman—namely, that this House should interfere with the internal discipline and with the procedure of the House of Lords. And he would impress upon the House, even upon the most advanced Liberal in the House, how serious a matter it would be if this House should succeed in so far superseding the independence of the House of Lords as practically to leave the country with only one Legislative Chamber. In the United States of America the people had become alive to the dangers sure to arise from an arrangement of that sort; they were more keenly

    1721
    sensitive on this point since the Rebellion which was happily subdued in that country. The great object of every American statesman had been, and was, to strengthen the Senate, to strengthen the Supreme Court, and, as far as possible, to unite the authority and functions of the Senate with the authority and functions of the Supreme Court. But what was the course proposed by the right hon. Gentleman? In the first instance, he proposed to inflict an incapacity on the House of Lords. Yet, inasmuch as the Lord Chancellor occupied the Chair in that House, the right hon. Gentleman was proposing to restrict and incapacitate that House in a matter for dealing with which the House of Lords was peculiarly qualified. Moreover, if the House of Lords found that it had to deal with difficult questions connected with property, it had the power of commanding the advice and assistance of all the Judges, and that was a power not inherent in this House. Therefore, he (Mr. Newdegate) had ventured, as a Member who had had some experience in the House; who remembered the attempt which was made by the right hon. Gentleman himself, in the year 1860, to deprive the House of Lords of its power of dealing with the Paper Duties by the acceptance or rejection, not by alteration, of the Bill; and having seen that attempt fail, and the right hon. Gentleman brought to admit the rightful function of the House of Lords in that matter, he (Mr. Newdegate) had ventured to make these observations; and, moreover, to say that he looked with deep suspicion upon the present attempt of the right hon. Gentleman to go further in the direction he endeavoured to pursue in 1860, and from which he was obliged to recede, in a matter touching landed property, a subject with which, as he had said before, the House of Lords was peculiarly fitted to deal.
    MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYsaid, he did not intend to interpose for any length of time between the House and the speech of the Prime Minister, and he thought the question was hardly quite so wide as to cover all the ground traversed by the hon. Gentleman the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate). The question now before them was not whether the House of Lords were acting wisely or unwisely, and whether they deserved to be censured or praised,
    1722
    but whether the regular and appointed Business ought to be put aside for the purpose of enabling the Government to introduce a Motion which was substantially a Vote of Censure on the House of Lords. He had no particular objection to see the House of Lords censured. He was not an enthusiastic admirer of the House ox Lords as an Institution; and he was inclined to think that in this case the course which they proposed to take could not do any possible good to Ireland. He doubted, indeed, whether it was even seriously intended to do any good. But the manner in which he looked upon the question was this—here was a proposal to postpone the Business of the evening in order to censure the House of Lords because they proposed to inquire into the working of the Land Act; and he (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) and many of his Friends were of opinion that the working of the Land Act did, even now, very much require investigation. They were of opinion that in some of its most important clauses, the Act was so entirely defective as to be of little or no use to those who had most need of benefit from its operation. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) had said that the Irish Land Act had the full confidence of the people of Ireland, and therefore he could not consent to an inquiry. He (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) could assure the right hon. Gentleman that he was much mistaken. The Irish Land Act in its present shape had not the confidence of the people of Ireland, nor, unamended, could it possibly have their confidence. Then the right hon. Gentleman pointed out that the Committee was already formed, and that it would be impossible for the Government to go as supplicants to ask the Lords for a change in its constitution. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman, that it would not be becoming in the Government to go as supplicants to the House of Lords. Therefore, the mischief was already done, or, at least, begun, by the action of the House of Lords, and no Motion made by the House of Commons to-night or to-morrow could in any degree modify the two conditions of which he had spoken. Looking to these two grounds, that whatever harm was to be done by the Resolution of the House of Lords was already tolerably certain, and that the ground on which that House

    1723
    was to be censured was simply for asking inquiry into the working of the Land Act, which he and his Friends believed to require investigation, he should, if the question went to a division, be compelled to vote against the Motion of the Prime Minister.
    MR. CHAPLINsaid, he doubted very much whether there were precedents for the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, while there were many obvious reasons against it. He (Mr. Chaplin) was confirmed in his opposition to the Motion by the main reason given by the right hon. Gentleman in advocating it to the House that night. What was that reason? "Why, it was this. The right hon. Gentleman said—"If you have this Committee of Inquiry you will inevitably shake the great confidence felt by the Irish people in the Land Act." Confidence in the Land Act! Who felt any confidence? [Loud cheers.] Was it the tenant farmers of Ireland? Why, Her Majesty's Government had the answer in the cheers of the Irish Members around the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. Justin M'Carthy). ["Oh, oh!"] The Prime Minister, he knew, had denied that these hon. Members represented the opinion of the Irish people; but he (Mr. Chaplin) was under the impression that they were the Representatives of Irish counties and Irish boroughs, and that they expressed the feeling of the great majority of the people of Ireland. Or was it the landlords of Ireland who had any confidence in the Act? He doubted very much whether the right hon. Gentleman would dispute for a moment that the landlords of Ireland had felt, did feel at the present time, or were likely to feel, confidence in the working of the Land Act. He thought that the right hon. Gentleman did well to evade an inquiry into the Land Act, because he (Mr. Chaplin) knew perfectly well, and his Government knew well, and he suspected the majority of the Sub-Commissioners knew well, that the working of that Act would not bear inquiry for a moment. The right hon. Gentleman dared not face it. If any class of people in the country seriously believed that the Irish Land Act was a measure deserving the approval of the country, if beneficial results had followed it—if peace and quietness prevailed—if they had reason to hope for still more beneficial results, then
    1724
    he thought the right hon. Gentleman would be right in making his Motion, and they should deserve condemnation for opposing it. But, unfortunately, they knew that the Land Act up to this time had been the greatest legislative failure that had ever been known; and they knew also that it had been followed by results in Ireland more disastrous than had ever succeeded any legislation in that country. He, for one, should say "No" to the Motion.
    MR. SHAWsaid, he had no intention at the beginning of the discussion of addressing the House on this Motion; but some observations made by his hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) left him no option but to do so. He (Mr. Shaw) did not think that on this question his hon. Friends opposite represented the views of the tenant farmers of Ireland. What was more, he had a strong notion that if they looked into their own minds, they would find that their public utterances did not represent their own private wishes. Of course, they wished to punish the Government in every way they possibly could for passing the Coercion Act—that was at the bottom of it—but he had as extensive opportunities of knowing the feelings of the tenant farmers of Ireland as his hon. Friends opposite, some of whom were disporting themselves in foreign parts during the Recess. As to the hon. Member who had just spoken (Mr. Chaplin), he (Mr. Shaw) was not aware that he knew much about the views or wishes or wants of the Irish people. He (Mr. Shaw) had during the last five or six months lost no opportunity of speaking individually to tenant farmers in Ireland, and learning their views on this measure, and he believed there never was an Act more thoroughly calculated to gain their confidence, or one which had gained their confidence so much. He believed there were some things in it which required amendment; but that was not the time to disturb the action of the Commissioners and the action of the Courts. When the proper time came he would be as earnest as any hon. Member opposite in endeavouring to enlarge the scope of the Bill, and especially that part of it which dealt with the purchase of their farms by the tenantry of Ireland. He hoped the Prime Minister would not accept the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman

    1725
    opposite (Sir Stafford Northcote), and that he would go on with the discussion. What would hon. Members opposite (the Irish Party) do, if they voted against the Government? They would vote that this inquiry should be conducted by a Committee of the House of Lords. They would vote that the Land Act, that was going all through the country, knocking off rack rents that had been crushing down the people of Ireland for generations—crushing them, so that when bad seasons came they had no recuperative power in them, the Irish Members opposite would vote that that Act should be given over to the tender mercies of a Committee of the House of Lords. He would vote against that in every shape and form, and if the Lords persisted in damaging themselves, he could not help them. If they wished to destroy themselves they would persevere. He stood in that venerable Assembly the other night, and it was impressed upon him deeply that amid all the reforms that were taking place in this country, reforms that were bringing the Sovereign more and more into the position of a Constitutional Monarch, that House had escaped. If the House of Lords wished to damage themselves, they never went more directly about it than in meddling with this Act, which had hardly yet commenced its work. He maintained that the action of the Sub-Commissioners would bear examination by any properly-constituted Committee. Of course, there might be cases to which objections could be taken; but he believed the decision of the Sub-Commissioners everywhere had strongly been supported by local public opinion. Having taken pains to learn the opinions of all classes, he found that invariably the only men who were against the decisions of the Sub-Commissioners were the landlords themselves. He would oppose in every shape this inquiry at the present moment; and he maintained that Irishmen who voted against the Government on this motion would not be doing their duty to their country.
    MR. O'DONNELLsaid, the hon. Member who had just spoken (Mr. Shaw) had been described by the Prime Minister as the Leader of the nominal Home Rulers. [Mr. GLADSTONE: Never.] He thought the House would remember the reference. The Prime Minister, in reference to the hon. Mem-
    1726
    ber, spoke of nominal Home Rulers; and that nominal Home Ruler had come forward to declare that the public opinion of Ireland, as regarded the tenant farmers, was in favour of the Land Act. He had taken care, however, to add that he adopted no public means for finding out what the public opinion was, but that his searches were private and of an individual character. If hon. Gentlemen really thought the Land Act possessed the confidence of the Irish people, why did they not dare to run a candidate for Meath against Michael Davitt? That would have shown whether the Government had gained the confidence of the Irish farmers. Or, if a wider demonstration was needed, let the hon. Member persuade the Premier to face a Dissolution. It was not the nominal Home Rulers merely who thought with the Premier on this question; the right hon. Gentleman was also supported on this occasion by the moribund Home Rulers. He confessed he did not feel disposed to give any strong or serious opposition to the Premier's Motion for postponing the Orders of the Day, because he looked upon the proposal of the Prime Minister as a kind and thoughtful method of opening up the largest, the widest, the most complete inquiry that could possibly be held regarding the Land Act. The difference between the Premier and the House of Lords bore strong analogy to the difference that existed between the Premier and the Land League on the Agrarian Question—the right hon. Gentleman merely objected to anyone else doing what he desired to do himself. He (Mr. O'Donnell) thought there ought to be an inquiry into the working of the Land Act. They had seen the tremendous evils which fell upon Ireland because no adequate inquiry was held into the working of the Land Act of 1870. Was Ireland to be plunged for another 11 years into discontent and misery, similar to that which resulted from the misplaced confidence of the country in the Premier's infallibility? The hon. and learned Solicitor General for Ireland (Mr. Porter), when contesting Derry, had to express regret to the electors that, in many cases, the Land Commissioners had not given decisions in conformity with the expression of the people. Though agreeing with his hon. Friend and Leader the Member for Longford (Mr. Justin M'Carthy), that

    1727
    the Irish Members owed no particular debt to the House of Lords, he did object to the proposal of the Premier, because he saw that the right hon. Gentleman, under cover of the Privileges of the House of Commons, was making a thinly disguised attack upon the Privileges of the other House. It was notorious that the Land Act had not produced any of those beneficial effects which its promoters promised would follow its adoption by the Houses of Lords and Commons. The right hon. Gentleman had spoken of the confidence of 70,000 tenants. He must remember that only 1,300 applications had been heard on the first sittings. When would the entire 70,000 be heard? The right hon. Gentleman and the Chief Secretary of Ireland had themselves supplied a reason why there should be a speedy inquiry. This reason was afforded by their declaration of the necessity for a stringent application of coercion. If the Land Act were calculated to deal with the evils of Ireland, why had the Chief Secretary for Ireland resorted to the expedient of sending scores of men to the Government Bastiles every week? He should not further trespass at that stage upon the House, because he considered the Premier's Motion would most likely be carried, and that then they should hear the Premier unfold the reason why he desired to interfere with the Constitutional Privileges of the House of Lords. Having heard those reasons, the Irish Members would have an opportunity of giving the House a full explanation from an Irish point of view of the true operation of the Land Act.
    MR. J. R. YORKEsaid, he had always understood that by a Standing Order any direct allusion to the other House was forbidden. He begged to ask Mr. Speaker, whether, during the discussion, the Standing Order would be suspended, or, if not, what were to be the precautions to be taken by those who wished to avoid the censure of the Chair?
    [No reply.]
    MR. SEXTONsaid, he wished to point out to the House a very important fallacy in the speech of the hon. Member for the county of Cork (Mr. Shaw). The hon. Member considered himself, and was considered by hon. Gentlemen opposite, to be the very incarnation of what was called respectable opinion. He (Mr. Sexton) would not interfere with that
    1728
    view. He wished to point out that the accusation which the hon. Member made against himself (Mr. Sexton) and his hon. Friends, that in voting against the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) they were voting in favour of an inquiry by the Lords, was an entire fallacy. The inquiry by the Lords was already decided upon, and would take place whatever this House might do. They could not affect it either way; but they took issue with the declaration of the right hon. Gentleman, that a Parliamentary Inquiry at the present time into the working of the Irish Land Act would tend to defeat the operation of that Act, and might be injurious to the interests of good government in Ireland. On the contrary, they were strongly of opinion that the Act had proved a dismal failure. He would not discuss the cause of that failure; but he must say he thought that if it were allowed to continue without immediate and exhaustive inquiry, it would be most injurious, not only to the working, but to the interests of good government in Ireland. They said that there were thousands of small farmers in the West of Ireland who had their rents reduced by 4s. or 5s. a-year, who were in a worse state of misery than they were before. In voting against the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman, they did not concern themselves in the least degree with the action of the House of Lords; but they claimed for themselves the right of fully and openly showing that an exhaustive and immediate inquiry into the working of the Act was necessary. If the right hon. Gentleman carried out the intention which more than one daily paper had that morning attributed to him—namely, to return to the country—they would be able to show the right hon. Gentleman, and the small and discredited number of Irish Members opposite, whether it was upon that side of the House or upon this that the opinion of Ireland was represented. He would say nothing more upon the subject, and would close by saying that the moment the right hon. Gentleman moved his Motion they should be prepared to show, not by vague rhetoric or general accusation, but by close and exact inquiry into every detail of that Act, that it was a failure; that at the present moment it was an absurdity before the country to have 70,000 cases before the Courts, and that

    1729
    the only way it could escape from disaster was by a withdrawal of these cases by the desperate and disputing tenants.
    MR WARTON, who spoke amid great interruption, said, that the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had now given them fresh cause to regard him as the most imperious Minister that ever sat in that House. It might be said with truth that an Imperial Minister had been succeeded by an imperious one. He only stopped his endeavours to destroy liberty of speech in the Commons because he aimed at nothing less than the destruction of the other House of Parliament by destroying its independence. Now, the representation of Ireland was divided into three sections. The loyalists had no confidence in the Land Act, and neither had those who sought separation from England. But there was a small section of Irish Members behind the Government who did appear to be in favour of the Act, and from that section all the appointments under the Act were made. He had said that the people of Ireland had confidence in the Land Act. The Act was a failure. It would take, at the present rate of progress, at least 15 years to get through the present applications, and the result of its operation would be that the Irish Land Question would be re-opened again and again, and no one would profit except the lawyers. He had nothing more to say, beyond that he was very much obliged to the House for the kind manner in which they had listened to him.
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes 300; Noes 167: Majority 133.—(Div. List, No. 28.)

    LAND LAW (IRELAND)—OPERATION OF THE ACT.—RESOLUTION.
    [FIRST NIGHT.]
    MR. GLADSTONE: Sir, I thank the House for having accorded to Her Majesty's Government permission to submit a Resolution which it thinks most important for the welfare of the country by a decisive majority, and in opposition to a remarkable combination. The Resolution is, Sir—
    "That Parliamentary inquiry, at the present time, into the working of the Irish Land Act tends to defeat the operation of that Act, and must be injurious to the interests of good government in Ireland."
    1730
    Now, I am not at all surprised, and I do not complain, that it should be the favourite practice of some to represent this Motion as a Motion having for its aim and purpose a censure upon the House of Lords. Hon. Gentlemen who so view it must be perfectly aware that opposite and contradictory declarations of policy are constantly made by the two Houses of Parliament—that is to say, constantly I mean, in the long review of history they have been made from time to time, and not infrequently. It is, however, no part of our object, could we escape from the inference hon. Gentlemen opposite wish to draw for themselves, to pass a censure upon the House of Lords. In the first place, it is not the office of one House of Parliament to censure another; and, in the second place, there is no question of a Privilege invaded in the present case, nor any question as to a conflict of jurisdiction. No one doubts for a moment that the House of Lords is competent to appoint a Committee, if it thinks fit to do so, to inquire into the operation of any of our laws. To do so may be an error of policy of the gravest character; but it is no invasion of our jurisdiction, and it is not as an invasion of our jurisdiction that it is taken up by the Government. In the same way, Sir, we are not here for the purpose of defending the Land Act. We have been threatened just now with a promised exposure of all its defects; but I do not know that we should be at all inclined to enter into a contest at the present moment with those who may give even the most inflamed and exaggerated account of those defects. Our position is this—that it is the law of the land, and that at the present moment Parliamentary inquiry into its administration, which is essentially at this point, and almost exclusively at this moment, a judicial administration, is adverse to the first purposes of government and the highest ends of society. That is the question before us, entirely apart from any discussion which may be raised here upon the merits or defects of the Land Act itself. And, again, Sir, there have been what I may call a sort of semi-grateful acknowledgments from one or two hon. Gentlemen opposite to the Government for having afforded in this week an opportunity for a full discussion of the administration of the Act in

    1731
    Ireland. It is not for me to say what the liberty of debate may allow; the scope given them is undoubtedly wide; but it is no part of our intention to offer any such opportunity at all, nor have we the slightest intention on this occasion to defend the administration of government in Ireland. We are not to be drawn aside from a purpose which, in our view, is of vital importance, which is specific, which marks out a clear field of debate and a well-defined field of debate, and which ought, we think, to arrive early at its conclusion. We are not to be drawn aside from such a purpose into vague and general discussion, with regard to which we know not when it would end; and all that we can know is that it would unnecessarily interfere with the progress of the Business of this House, and tend to draw off the public attention from a matter which we think to be of vital importance. Therefore, Sir, we are not here to defend the Act; we are not here to censure the House of Lords. We are here to ask the House of Commons to pass a Vote of Confidence of the highest importance. We ask it of the House of Commons, because that House is our natural and legitimate resort; we draw from it our strength; our very existence depends upon its confidence. When a heavy blow is struck at our existence, or at the interests confided to our charge, this is the place to which we come to restore to us the strength necessary for the honourable administration of the trust of government. We are, then, acting according to precedent; we are acting according to principle. The only question is whether the occasion for our thus acting is an adequate occasion; and, in our opinion, this is an occasion, not only of great gravity, but one that I cannot call anything less than an occasion of extreme necessity. Now, Sir, I think I have heard from an hon. Member whose high integrity always commands the respectful attention of this House—I mean the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate)—I have heard from the hon. Member something new, that though his experience in this House has been a lengthened one, that during that long experience, and during, I suppose, his research into history—because, long as his experience is, the experience of the House of Commons is longer still—he is not aware of any instance in
    1732
    which a proceeding analogous to this proceeding has been taken. Well, Sir, I think that I can contrive, without much effort, to enlarge the historical resources of the hon. Gentleman. The truth is, Sir, as I have stated briefly a few minutes ago, that these conflicts of opinion between the House of Commons and the House of Lords are far from being uncommon. If it is thought necessary in one House to make a declaration of policy striking at some course of action on the part of the Executive Government, or some general system of Administration, the other House of Parliament, having a different view, passes some Resolution arising directly out of the previous decision, and directly intended to contravene it. Such was the case, for example, in the China War in 1857, when the House of Lords, having supported the Government of that day, in the House of Commons a Motion was immediately made for the purpose of neutralizing and defeating the effect of that support, which Resolution was carried by the House of Commons. Such, exactly, was the character of the Motion of Mr. Roebuck in 1850, when, conversely, the House of Lords had pronounced censure upon the foreign policy of Lord Palmerston in the Government of Lord John Russell, and Mr. Roebuck brought forward his Motion in this House, which was intended to rehabilitate—if that word is a legitimate one to' use—to rehabilitate the foreign policy and the position of Lord Palmerston, and he succeeded in carrying his Motion in contradiction of the House of Lords. Another Motion of the same kind, I think, was in 1863 or 1864, in relation to the Danish War; but in truth, Sir, precedents of this kind of contradictory declarations, where the proceedings of the House that acts second has a direct, an avowed, and undisguised reference to the proceedings of the House that acted first—these are so common that I should, perhaps, almost ask an apology of the House for making reference to them in connection with this debate. But, Sir, there are points yet to be brought out, which I will endeavour to explain by reference to other cases of conflict yet more direct. In 1839 the House of Lords appointed a Committee to inquire into the administration of the Irish Government since 1835, and the Motion for that purpose was not an attack upon the opera-

    1733
    tion of any particular law. It was not a Motion which threatened immediately great and vital public interests, but only the general political necessity of maintaining the Administration of the Party that was in power. Nothing further was aimed at by it than to discredit the Executive Government. But, notwithstanding, immediately after that Motion a counter Motion was made in this House in support of the Executive Government, and Lord John Russell laid down the doctrine—which I think was a sound and a necessary Constitutional doctrine—he said—"The House of Lords has brought an arraignment against the Executive Government. That is a blow to the Executive Government. It weakens the Executive, it deprives it not only of dignity and of repute, but of efficiency and of power. We seek to obtain a restoration of the strength that has been taken from us by the act of the House of Lords in coming here and asking for an opposite Vote from the House of Commons" Now, I cannot conceive, Sir, a stronger precedent than that for the course that is now taken, excepting, indeed, in this respect, that what was then in question was the fate of the Executive Government alone. Sir, I know not if the fate of the Executive Government alone had been in question here we should have thought it necessary to ask the House to interrupt. We should carefully have considered, in the first instance, whether the blow was sufficiently heavy to admit such a recourse to the aid of the House of Commons, and possibly we might have determined in the negative. But, Sir, I will give another instance which I conceive to be a true precedent for the Motion that I am now making, when it was not the fate of the Executive Government or a particular policy of Administration that was at stake, but when the whole social system of the country was threatened, as the House of Commons thought, by a Vote of the House of Lords; and instantly the remedy was applied. I go back for my precedent to the year 1851—on the 10th of October, I think it was. On Friday, the 7th October, or you may call it on the morning of Saturday, the 8th October—and I well recollect that debate, through the whole of which I was present, though, of course, without deliberative force—the House of Lords rejected, by a majority of 41, the
    1734
    Reform Bill proposed by the Government of Lord Grey. The Government of Lord Grey, and their supporters in the House of Commons, saw in that rejection a blow aimed, not purposely perhaps, but yet directly and effectually aimed, at the interests of good government throughout the country. The state of the public mind, as associated with the Reform Bill, was such that Lord Grey's Government felt they could not venture to be responsible for carrying on the government of the country unless they could obtain from the House of Commons a remedy for the Vote of the House of Lords, not by reversing it, not by divesting it of its Constitutional operation, but by giving to the country at large that solemn assurance which, when it proceeds from this House after full deliberation, never is distrusted—that the House would be faithful to the interests that had been committed to its charge, and never would desist from its labours until those interests had been rescued from peril and placed in security. Now, Sir, mark the circumstances. On Saturday morning, at 6 o'clock I think it was, or thereabouts, the decision of the House of Lords was taken. There was no Sitting of the House of Commons before Monday; but on Monday, the 10th of October, without previous Notice, all other Business being put aside for the purpose by general consent, without any opposition from the Leaders of the Opposition or from others, the House of Commons was invited to consider the following Resolution, which I suppose you may term a censure of the House of Lords:—
    "That while this House deeply laments the recent fate of a Bill for reforming the Representation"—[a pretty distinct reference to what had taken place]—"in favour of which the opinion of the country stands unequivocally pronounced, and which has been matured by discussions the most anxious and laborious, it feels called upon to re-assert its firm adherence to the principle and leading provisions of that great measure;"—[it then goes on to say]—"and to express its unabated confidence in the integrity, perseverance, and ability of those Ministers who, in introducing and conducting it, have so well consulted the best interests of the country."—[3 Hansard, viii. 385.]
    On that same evening on which the debate came forward without Notice the question was decided, and the Resolution of Lord Ebrington was carried by a majority of 131, or within 2 of the

    1735
    number given to us by the House upon the division that has just been taken. And there was no denial of the right or title of the House of Lords, on the competency of the House of Lords, to cast out the Reform Bill, any more than there is now a denial of its competency to appoint a Committee of Inquiry. There was no allegation that there had been a trespass upon the province of the House of Commons, any more than there is any such allegation now. No, Sir; but a great act of national impolicy had been committed, which might have led forward to national disaster, and the House of Commons felt that it was here that the central and chief responsibility rested. It is not another Assembly, however important, however venerable, however respectable it may be, however distinguished by its long traditions—it is not that Assembly that can decide the greatest issues of the national fortunes, or can bear the enormous responsibilities of political crises when they arise. It is you, the Representatives of the people, upon whom in every crisis really the burden must lie; and if there be disaster, if the interests of the country be fatally compromised, you cannot shift that responsibility from yourselves upon those whom we are accustomed to refer to under the name of "another place." The nation will expect from you the maintenance of its fortunes and the custody of its interests, and it is in order that you should rise to the level of that great duty that I appeal to you upon this occasion. Well now, Sir, what do we call upon the House to assert? A large part of the terms of the Motion of Lord Ebrington that I have referred to is strictly applicable to this case. We believe that the measure it is sought to impair is a measure in favour of which the opinion of the country stands unequivocally pronounced. We believe it was matured by discussion of the most anxious and laborious character, and I think that to the accuracy and moderation of that statement I might call some competent witnesses even from the other side; and, Sir, "that the House is ready to express firm adherence to its principle and leading provisions" is, I believe, as true now as it was in 1831. And what do we ask the House to assert? Is there anything of exaggeration, anything of inflammation or extravagance, is there anything rhetorical or declama-
    1736
    tory in the terms we invite you to adopt? No, Sir; we have endeavoured to cast aside the fascinations of imagination, and we ask you only to say, if you believe it, that this Parliamentary inquiry tends to defeat the operation of the Act, and must be injurious to the interests of good government in Ireland. Sir, we have had some little light thrown upon this subject by the speech delivered to-night by the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire (Mr. Chaplin.) We are told by some that this inquiry is not to give effect to a foregone conclusion against the Act. What a pity, Sir, then, it was that the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire was allowed to make himself the organ of the Party, and to bring about the division which has just taken place. He complimented us on our wisdom in avoiding inquiry, for he says—"You know that your Act will be shattered in its influence; you know your Act is gone, if once it is inquired into." That, Sir, is a guarantee of the impartiality with which—according to the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire—the Committee of the House of Lords is to set about its inquiry. But then, Sir, the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire did not stand alone in his assertions. I must do credit to the regular Constitutional Opposition in saying that they maintained a tolerably unbroken silence during most of that remarkable speech; but the hon. Member for Mid Lincolnshire was sustained and cheered in his task by vigorous cheering from a certain quarter of the Opposition; and he welcomed those cheers, and turned to bestow his testimony, his favourable testimony, on the persons from whom they proceeded, as the true organs of the people of Ireland. The meaning of those cheers was an utter condemnation of the Land Act, which, as has not been disguised in the speeches of various Members representing Irish constituencies, is what they are pleased to call "a dismal failure." Yes; but then observe the position in which you place yourselves, and in which you place the Committee of the House of Lords as far as in you lies. It is, that that Committee is appointed for the condemnation of the Land Act in conformity with the views of those who have already described it as "a dismal failure." I entreat the House to allow me briefly to convey to their minds, as fairly as I can, an oppo-

    1737
    site view of the Land Act—its functions, its destinies, its possible results. I ask the House to go back with me to the language almost of despair in which the Queen's Speech of 1881 opened the Session of Parliament. I ask the House, after having gone through that Speech—which I need not specifically quote, because its general character is fresh in the minds of all—I ask them, then, to go forward with me through the laborious experience of the last Session, through the 58 nights of debate on the Land Bill, and to the period when the appointments of Commissioners and Sub-Commissioners had been made, and when their proceedings were about practically to commence. Sir, it was then that we were called upon to witness a new and powerful and menacing development of the great conspiracy against law and order and property in Ireland. It was then that we were bound to confess to ourselves—and blind, indeed, we must have been if we had attempted to conceal it—that the effort which was being made, and which was being made not without chances of success, was to bring about that universal denial of the obligations and the rights of property which the Duke of Wellington had long ago pointed out in solemn and formal words as marking the stage at which Government would be paralyzed, and no power at its command would enable it to meet the disaffection of a united nation. That was the crisis which we had before us in the beginning of October last. What were the means we had in our hand to meet it with? We had the Coercion Act. Does anybody suppose that the operation of that Act would have been made co-extensive with the evil which we had to confront? Does anybody suppose—I am afraid there are some who still suppose—that in the Coercion Act there is latent some remedial process; but we, at least, are not under that dismal superstition. We have always declared that the Act had no legitimate purpose, and could have none, except for a moment to clear the ground and to leave a space on which you might found, with a prospect of their free operation, your remedial measure. We had the power of government in Ireland; and what is the power of government in Ireland? It is a mechanical force, which, unless it has other moral forces behind it, cannot conquer. Had we been speaking of England, you might have
    1738
    told us that we had large reserves of energy throughout all classes of the community. Had we those large reserves of energy in Ireland? Was it upon the moral power or the social power of the landlord class in Ireland that we were to fall back, and to hope that from that source could be derived the strength which was necessary to cope with and put down this tremendous conspiracy? No, Sir; at the time we well knew that there were in Ireland but two living powers. One of them was the Land League, and the other was the Land Act. A desperate conflict it was obvious must occur between them. The question was, which was to be the victor? Yes, Sir; between the Land League and the Land Act. We have had to-night from agents of the Land League, as we had throughout the discussion of the Land Bill, a significant exhibition of their desire to defeat that Bill if they could—["No, no!"]—or, if they could not defeat it, to discredit it. Do not let it be supposed for a moment that I charge that responsibility on Irish Members in general. Do not let it be supposed that I charge it on all Irish Members who sit in that quarter of the House, for I know there are some of them who were roused, even during the debates on the Land Bill last year, into indignant protestations of an irrepressible patriotism against the proceedings of some of their Colleagues. But there were, and there are, in that quarter of the House deadly enemies of the Land Act. No wonder. Why are they its enemies? Because they are working for one purpose, and that their own purpose, and the Land Act is working for a purpose directly opposite. The Land Act is working, as we believe, for the purposes of social order and stability. They are working for purposes which may, perhaps, seem to them to be sufficient and legitimate, but which we are compelled to consider directly the reverse. That was the situation of things in Ireland in October last. We knew, of course, we could not expect to obtain from the Party opposite, which was associated directly with the interests of land in Ireland, a recognition of our real objects, or an approval of the means we were employing in order to attain them. But these were the facts of the case—There was this great measure, and there was the double opposition which it had to confront—a double

    1739
    opposition which was constantly represented in the debates of last year, and which has been again represented in the division to-night. Now, Sir, what is the effect of such a Motion as has been carried in the Lords for an inquiry into the judicial administration of the Land Act? Remember that we had consented to withdraw—
    SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: The word "judicial" is not in the Motion.
    MR. GLADSTONE: I know that. I am going to argue it. I am not referring to it as a quotation, but I am going to argue that that is the purpose of the Motion. Remember that you are all witnesses of our offer, and the rejection of our offer. ["No, no!"] You are all witnesses to our official and responsible declaration—"Contrive by any way you like formally to exclude from the inquiry the judicial administration of the Act, and to every other form of the inquiry we will waive the serious objections we entertain." That was the offer made on the first occasion by Lord Granville, and rejected, and which I have repeatedly made to-night, not, perhaps, for the first time, in terms yet more explicit and determined. Well, Sir, we have been told, and, no doubt, shall be told again, that these are idle and unfounded alarms, and that there is no danger to the Land Act. I must say with regard to the Motion of the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. Sexton) that it appears to me to take a fair and legitimate advantage of what has been done. I should hardly expect him to vote against an inquiry—not, at any rate, until he has first tried to extend it. But he is prepared to move an inquiry in the sense of increasing the pressure of the Act upon rents, just as the House of Lords is making an inquiry for the purpose of diminishing the pressure. But let us consider what will be the effect of this inquiry. It is an inquiry into the proceedings of a judicial body—an inquiry by a Committee of the House of Lords into the proceedings of a judicial body—and, as far as we can gather, it will be the duty—indeed, I do not know how the Committee will escape the duty—to summon before it a smaller or a larger number of the judicial agents by whom the Act is now being administered. Have they considered what kind of rebuff they may possibly receive when they ask a
    1740
    Judge under the Land Act what were the considerations which moved him to deliver this or that judgment? Sir, I believe there is upon record a case in which a Committee of the House of Lords made a similar attempt, and met with a reply famous for evermore within, the precincts of the distinguished Profession of which the person making it was a member. In the case of Knollys, Chief Justice Holt delivered a judgment which the House of Lords disapproved, as they seem to disapprove some of the judgments of Mr. Justice O'Hagan. I beg the pardon of the House—the case is even worse than I supposed. From the inaccuracy of my memorandum, I presumed that it was a Committee of the House of Lords which received the rebuff. On reference I find that it is the House of Lords itself. Chief Justice Holt was summoned by the House of Lords and asked the reason for his decision. I may inform the House that it was a case in which the Privileges of the House of Lords were attacked, and therefore there was greater apology for tampering with the judicial independence of Chief Justice Holt than there would be with the judicial independence of Mr. Justice O'Hagan. When Chief Justice Holt was asked his reason for his decision, he replied in these memorable words—
    "I hold an authority independent of yours; I gave my reasons for the judgment in that place in which I have sworn to administer justice. By the House of Lords I look to he protected and not to be arraigned, and I will not assign the reasons upon which I founded my judgment."
    Well, Sir, what is the case in these judicial proceedings? In so far as they differ from other judicial proceedings they differ in this respect—that Parliament has deliberately sought to fence them, if possible, against all interference. From the decisions of the Land Court there is no absolute appeal whatever except on questions of law. [Mr. NEWDEGATE: Hear, hear!] That is the view of judicial independence by which Parliament was governed. Even on questions of law—[Mr. NEWDEGATE: Hear, hear!]—it is in the power of the Commissioners to refuse an appeal. [Mr. NEWDEGATE: Hear, hear! j I am delighted to be assured of the constant concurrence of the hon. Gentleman in all things which I am feebly endeavouring

    1741
    to express; but still I must also be content to postpone the enjoyment of the pleasure until he has the opportunity for expressing his concurrence from his place. Even on questions of law, the Commission is not absolutely bound to allow an appeal. If it declares that, in its judgment, the grounds are frivolous and vexatious, it may refuse appeal on questions of law. In fact, there is no appeal whatever, except by the permission of the Commission. The regular course of appeal you have suspended in this case. Had you not interposed those barriers the cases might have gone to the highest Court in Ireland, and might then have gone to the House of Lords, and the House of Lords might have dealt with it judicially; but you have elaborately provided for the total exclusion of the House of Lords in its judicial capacity from touching those matters. And now, having excluded itself in its judicial capacity, it appoints a Committee, on the composition of which I make no remark, but presumably not distinguished by the absence of prejudice and bias—["Oh, oh!"]—to examine these very subjects from which, in its highest character, the House of Lords is excluded. I do not wish to convey any special imputation as to the character of the Committee. ["Oh, oh!"] No; but I am not going to recede from what I have said. A Committee, composed almost wholly of landlords, and largely of Irish landlords, is going to examine the working of the havoc the Courts have been making with Irish rents; and I say I am justified in stating that such a Committee is not presumedly distinguished by an absence of prejudice or bias on the particular matter. Such, Sir, is the character of those who are now liable to be brought before the House of Lords and have questions put to them similar to that addressed to Chief Justice Holt, whose reply I have read? Although we are sometimes accused of too hasty legislation, Parliament has, with remarkable care, not only excluded these appeals, but has covered them with a wide legislative declaration; the whole of the proceedings of the Commissioners—and the Commissioners are allowed and empowered to give to the Sub - Commissioners throughout the country, subject only to an appeal to themselves, the same authority—are covered by the same statutory declara-
    1742
    tion. In Clause 48 of the Irish Land Act, in the last paragraph of sub-section 3, these words are used—
    "The Land Commission shall have all such, powers, rights, and privileges as are vested in the Chancery Division of the High Court of Justice in Ireland as may be necessary for carrying out its purposes, and proceedings before the Land Commission shall in law be deemed to be judicial proceedings before a Court of record."
    Now, I say it is not expedient, that it is not in the view of this House tolerable—so far as we have the power by our protest to weaken the injurious action—that it is not tolerable, taking into view the whole case of Ireland, that these relations of landlord and tenant, through the medium of judicial inquiry, shall be overhauled by the promiscuous inquiries of a Committee such as that I have described. I cannot exclude from myself the possibility of painful and indecorous collision between the authority of the House of Lords and the authority of those judicial persons. I give my opinion. I have no knowledge of the facts, and I have not sought to obtain them. Such is the effect that may happen on the one side; but, on the other side, this Committee has the most direct unavoidable tendency to weaken the hands of the Commissioners. Will you deny that every inquiry into the proceedings of a Court, whiletheseproceedings—or others analogous to them—are going on, must necessarily have that effect? It is impossible that it can be otherwise. How has this proposed inquiry acted upon the landlords of Ireland? The first effect that I have heard is that it has led more than one landlord, who had been contemplating an arrangement with his tenants, to write to his agent for the purpose of arresting his orders, and I must say it appears to me that this has been a perfectly natural operation upon the mind of the landlord. I understand the objections of those who say that the Act is a failure, and can never satisfy the just claims of the tenant; but this I know—that there are thousands and tens of thousands in Ireland who, though many of them believe that the Act falls short of their just claims, yet are determined to adhere to it to the effect that it should not be impaired; and I, for my part, am not willing to be responsible for the results that would already have been produced on the

    1743
    minds and temper of the Irish people, had they been allowed, even for eight-and-forty hours, to believe that Her Majesty's Government or the House of Commons would view with indifference the deplorable and ill-omened measure that has been adopted. In our opinion, what we think to be the confidence of the Irish people in the Land Act, and what I believe the majority of Irish Members with us think to be the confidence of the Irish people in the Land Act. would have been fatally impaired had we allowed it for a moment to be supposed that we at least were going to tolerate any interference with its operations. I know it has been said that this inquiry shall not be directed to abridgment of the privileges of the tenant; but how do I know that there is nothing in which it will be necessary to defend these privileges against the encroachment of the Committee. The avowed object of the Committee is known to be to show that something in the nature of property is unjustly taken from the landlord, in order to be unjustly handed of r to the tenant. That is undoubtedly so, and I am not going, with the view that we take of the account of the Act and its provisions, to be responsible for allowing the people of Ireland to suppose that we shall be parties to the opening of the question. Well, Sir, I said just now there were but two living powers in Ireland in this great and terrible struggle. We entered into it with a firm determination to use every power in our hands for the purpose of maintaining or restoring tranquillity, order, and confidence in Ireland. I am thankful to say that some small beginnings have been made in the performance of that great work. But we have no strength to spare. We cannot afford to witness with indifference the invasion of our means, and the weakening of our resources. We have nothing to throw away. As I have said, it is not an Executive Government that can maintain the existing state of things in Ireland; it is not an educated class; it is not a body of landlords. We have heard much, on different occasions in this House—and once or twice the phrase has been repeated within the last few weeks and days; we have heard much of the "English garrison" in Ireland. Well, Sir; but what is that English garrison—if the odious phrase must be repeated?
    1744
    Of what is it composed? Whence does it draw its vitality and its strength? It does not draw its strength and vitality from pompous titles and long rent rolls. It draws almost the whole of its vitality in Ireland from the support of the Northern population of Ireland, and at this moment you are impairing that. The whole Northern population is ready to go against you, almost to a man, if you allow them for a moment to suppose that you are about to tolerate the tampering with the Land Act. And what, Sir, I should like to know, is the strength or efficacy of any English garrison, or what ought to be its strength or efficacy, when there shall be no large section, even, of the population to which it can appeal for hearty co-operation and support? I think, Sir, I have said enough.—I do not say to convince hon. Gentlemen opposite—but to show that, in our view, this matter is a most profoundly grave and serious matter; that the question is about the first foundations of social order. I own I do not believe hon. Gentlemen sitting on the other side of the House have ever yet taken a true measure of Irish difficulties—[Mr. ASH-MEAD-BARTLETT: Oh, oh!]—or know how deep lies the seat of them. No; I do not believe it, not even of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Eye. [Laughter.] The subject is too grave for laughter, and I am sorry that I was drawn aside for a moment by the conspicuous method which the hon. Member adopts for the conveyance of his sentiments. The gravity of the question is such as can hardly be described. We are seeking to put an end to the odious war of classes, and to build firmly and deeply the foundations of social order. We do not believe it possible to attain that end except through the medium of popular contentment; and we are persuaded that concessions, according to the measure of reason and justice, such as have been offered, speaking generally, by the Land Act, are concessions which will bring about, not in a moment, but by a sure and gradual process, the restoration of that contentment. It is upon these terms, and these terms alone, that we can afford to be responsible for, or to employ the repulsive means to which we are obliged to submit for securing the first conditions of peace, and putting an end to the reign of intimidation in Ireland, by the use of powers alien to the ordi-

    1745
    nary letter, and alien to the essential spirit of the law. We cannot for a day be responsible for the government of Ireland, except with the free use of the weapons that the Legislature has been pleased to intrust to our hands. We know very well that we cannot turn to the House of Lords and ask the House of Lords to undertake the government of Ireland. Our hopes for it are bound up in the operation of the Land Act—the fruit of so many labours, of so great efforts from so many quarters, brought about by so much concession, by so much moderation, by so much abatement of extreme views, by so much courage in confronting the possibilities of popular prejudice. The result we deem precious to the country. Upon it we build, upon it we suspend our hopes; and we will be no parties, for a day or for an hour, to any proceeding by which these hopes can be substantially impaired. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the Resolution of which he had given Notice.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That Parliamentary inquiry, at the present time, into the working of the Irish Laud Act tends to defeat the operation of that Act, and must be injurious to the interests of good government in Ireland."—[Mr. Gladstone.)
    After a pause, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded to put the Question, when—
    MR. GIBSONsaid: Sir, I readily confess it would be a source of satisfaction if I could have avoided following the right hon. Gentleman immediately at a time when so many hon. Members must be more agreeably engaged elsewhere; but I cannot permit what would be the accident of a division to follow immediately upon the remarkable speech just delivered by the Prime Minister without any statement being made from this side of the House, or some reasons being given which may induce the House to think that there were matters which might well be taken into account other than those stated by the right hon. Gentleman to influence their decision. One reflection which passed through my mind during the speech of the right hon. Gentleman was this—Why were not these arguments presented in some measure in "another place?" Bearing in mind the wide area the right hon. Gentleman necessarily covered in his speech—referring to the Land Act and its benefits, to the
    1746
    state of Ireland and its disorder—I could not help also asking myself this question—Was it wise or necessary to move this Resolution in this House at the present time? Also, bearing in mind the crisis, bearing in mind the state of Business, bearing in mind what I may call, to express my meaning, the present muddle of Business, is such a Motion as the present the best way of expressing the wishes and the convictions of the Government? What has been the Government action in the House of Lords? It is not competent for me to quote what has occurred in the debates of that Assembly; but the House of Lords, as the right hon. Gentleman fully conceded, acted in the exercise of their Constitutional rights; and they did not, as the right hon. Gentleman assumed nearly all through his speech, resolve upon an inquiry hostile to the Land Act with the object of condemning it. There is not a syllable of such condemnation or hostile intention in the Reference; and it is reasonable, fair, and quite within their Constitutional rights, to inquire into the operation of an Act admittedly of the most exceptional, peculiar, and drastic character ever passed. Bear in mind that the right hon. Gentleman himself recently described the measure as so exceptional and extraordinary as only to be justified by the special circumstances of the case. Is it, then, unreasonable, it being admittedly within their Constitutional rights, after over four months' full and thorough operation, when its administration can be thoroughly and fairly gauged, that the other House should resolve upon such an inquiry? Remember what occurred. Ample Notice was given in the House of Lords of the Motion for a Committee; there was no surprise; the Notice was upon the Journals of the House; the course proposed to be taken was indicated in a speech in the debate on the Address; but until the Motion for the Committee was moved, there was not a single word of warning; not a single suggestion was made in either House that inconvenience to Public Business would result from the carrying of the Motion. So the first step is this—clear and ample Notice is given, and there is absolute silence in both Houses on the part of the Government as to any inconvenience that may result. What is the next step? It is to be presumed that the Government

    1747
    are capably well served in the House of Lords, where they have Colleagues who are in the Cabinet. When the Motion was made, why, if the sentiments just now announced by the Prime Minister were deliberately entertained by the Government, was not an Amendment moved or suggested in the House of Lords? Why were not the reasons now given urged against the Motion in the House of Lords? On the contrary, is it not a matter of notoriety that in the most distinct Government utterance there was no suggestion of an Amendment, or of the possibility of compromise on this question? Was any intimation whatever given anywhere in the progress of that debate of these wonderful expressions which have just now been used by the right hon. Gentleman in reference to the effect on the condition of Ireland of that Motion being carried? Not a solitary intimation of anything of the kind. I had the privilege of hearing that debate, and I had the pleasure of reading it afterwards; and I say distinctly that the whole Motion was discussed on this issue—that expediency was urged on the one side and inexpediency on the other; hut the element of danger to social order and national safety, or anything of that kind, was never suggested from beginning to end of the debate. The Prime Minister tells us his present Motion is to be supported by grave reasons having relation to the first necessities of society. I venture to say most positively that that argument never was hinted at by anyone save by the Prime Minister himself in this House, when the right hon. Gentleman came down last Monday and gave Notice of the Motion which he has just made. I ask hon. Members whether that proceeding was not a thorough surprise to hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House? I am satisfied that surprise was just as much the feeling on the other side of the House as on this. We hear that to-day a novel expedient in Liberal tactics has been adopted for the first time for some years, a meeting of the Liberal Party having been summoned by the Prime Minister, and that the result of it has been to restore union in the Party for the purposes of this discussion, and possibly also to secure a discreet silence from hon. Gentlemen opposite. Either the statement made on Monday last for the first time, and now
    1748
    emphasized by the Prime Minister, was an after-thought, or it was deliberately withheld from the House of Lords. The last is not a proposition that I should feel justified in putting; and, therefore, I prefer to hold that the Government did not think of any of those terrible consequences which they now seek to frighten the House of Commons with until the matter had passed in the House of Lords. I wish to quote a passage from the speech of Sir Robert Peel in the debate of 1839—a most important debate, and one which is, I think, the real precedent to be applied in the present case. Sir Robert Peel said—
    "If either in the language of the Resolution of the House of Lords or in the period at which it fixed the inquiry …. you apprehended an implied Vote of Censure, why not have moved an Amendment in the terms of this Motion in the House of Lords—a legitimate and proper course—instead of letting it pass without moving an Amendment and then availing yourselves of it as a pretext for collision with the House of Lords?"—[3 Hansard, xlvii. 53.]
    Is not every syllable of that speech of Sir Robert Peel—a great historical speech—applicable to the present Motion? Why was not an Amendment moved in the House of Lords? Why were the topics which are now urged held in reserve to be used as a pretext for an attack on the House of Lords? The Committee was only nominated in the House of Lords on Friday, and on that occasion the Minister of the Crown, speaking on behalf of the Government, spoke only at the close of the debate. He moved neither an adjournment, nor an Instruction, nor a limitation, nor an exclusion from the work of the Committee; he allowed the whole thing to go without suggesting any kind of Amendment. I ask—Is the method of the Government the wisest way in which they can effect their own purpose? The right hon. Gentleman says that his object is to dissociate himself, on the part of the Government, from the action of the House of Lords, and to show to those who are administering the Land Act that they have the Ministers and the House of Commons behind them. Surely they have already intimated that pretty plainly by their Colleagues refusing to serve on the Committee of the House of Lords; and they might have supplemented that, if they chose, by the strongest speech from their strongest Colleague, or, adopting an expedient,

    1749
    legitimate, and thoroughly known in this House, they might have put up some much-respected private Member on their own side to ask whether they approved the action of the House of Lords. Then to that question the Prime Minister might have made as long a reply as he pleased, disapproving the action of the other House, and assuring those who administer the Land Act, and those who look to it, that they have the House of Commons behind them. That obvious and legitimate expedient would have terminated the incident in a quarter of an hour, thus averting a rupture with the other House of Parliament, and also avoiding the consumption of a considerable amount of the public time. Again, an hon. Friend of mine (Mr. Fitz-patrick) has given Notice of his intention to draw the attention of the House to-morrow to the operation of the Land Act. The Prime Minister might have taken that opportunity of making as long a speech as he chose, and have argued against the action of the House of Lords. More than that, he could have moved on that Motion an Amendment that would have enabled him to urge in substance whatever he thought expedient, without introducing words which involved an attack on the House of Lords. The right hon. Gentleman has gone at considerable length into precedents. I do not intend to follow him in detail, but will only make one or two remarks. The precedent which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to think had most weight was certainly not a precedent that struck my mind as entitled to any particular weight at all, the circumstances being so entirely different. He commenced with the very ill-omened precedent in reference to the war with China. It is very true that the House of Commons acted as he said on that occasion; but I do not think that the country afterwards approved of the action which had thus been taken. The right hon. Gentleman also referred to Viscount Ebrington's Motion on the rejection of the Reform Bill; and he appeared to rest on that precedent as one that was his guiding star in these entire proceedings. But where is the analogy between the two cases? A Bill that had been discussed for a considerable length of time in the House of Commons was rejected by the House of Lords; and after that rejection it was
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    thought expedient to come back and affirm that the House of Commons would stand to its convictions, and would at an early opportunity re-introduce that legislation. Had the House of Lords last Session, in the exercise of their discretion, thrown out the Land Bill, then there might have been an analogy. But where is the possible analogy between that case and the present one, the House of Lords having not only passed the Land Bill, but passed it after Amendments, which your own responsible Colleague in the House of Lords said added to the chances of the improved working of the Bill? What were the other precedents cited by the right hon. Gentleman? Not a single one of them is in point. He passed rapidly by the precedent of 1839. That is a remarkable precedent, because it throws a good deal of light on what the Government has not done in this case. There the House of Lords had appointed a Committee to inquire into the state of Ireland. What did Lord John Russell do? He did not, in the Resolution that he moved in the House of Commons, say or suggest anything against the action of the House of Lords; but he did what I think the right hon. Gentleman would not venture now to do—namely, submit a Motion declaring that his measures have tended to the peace, happiness, and good government of Ireland. In April, 1839, Sir Robert Peel moved an Amendment which, after a lengthened Preamble setting out his reasons, contained these words—which ought not to be lost sight of in this discussion—
    "It is not fitting that this House should adopt a proceeding which has the appearance of calling in question the undoubted right of the House of Lords to inquire into the state of Ireland."—[3 Hansard, xlvii. 70.]
    The Motion was carried in the House of Commons in 1839 by a majority of 20. Obviously, the right hon. Gentleman did not like to dwell upon that, because I find, on looking at the Division List, that the right hon. Gentleman affirmed the proposition of Sir Robert Peel. The right hon. Gentleman cannot be right both times. I am. inclined to think that he was right then. The other precedent to which he refers is the Don Pacifico debate. Mr. Roebuck, an independent Member of this House, brought forward a proposition, not against the House of Lords, but approving the principles which

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    had hitherto regulated the foreign policy of the Government. His Motion was care-fully and cautiously worded, so as not at all to interfere with the House of Lords, but only to affirm the House's approval of the foreign policy of the Government. I do not think it necessary to go into further examination of the precedents cited by the right hon. Gentleman; but I desire to mention one which I think he might well have adduced. It is one that happened in very recent times—namely, in 1872, when Lord Lifford, in the House of Lords, early in that year, about 18 months after the passing of the Land Act of 1870, moved for an inquiry into the operation of that Act. That is a perfectly germane precedent. It is a question of degree whether the inquiry should come 18 months or six months after the passing of the Act. That Motion was encountered in the House of Lords exactly as the one made the other day has been. The one side argued that it was expedient to inquire into the working of an Act of an exceptional character; the other side pointed out the inexpediency and the inconvenience of such a course. Nevertheless, the inquiry proceeded; several Judges of the County Courts and of the Superior Courts were examined; the working of the Act of 1870 was not interfered with in any particular; and the Report was one of the most cautious and moderate documents ever presented to either House of Parliament. We are told that this Resolution is not to be regarded as a Vote of Censure on the House of Lords. If it is not one, it appears to an ordinary man about as good an imitation of a Vote of Censure as could well be imagined. It is an attempt to discredit, if not to censure, the House of Lords. I should have liked to have analyzed the speech of the Prime Minister more at my leisure than I have been able to do before replying. That speech shows a change of front. The right hon. Gentleman makes a whole mass of admissions—so much so that if the admissions he has just made are to be considered as true, it is impossible for his Motion to be carried. His Motion is that Parliamentary inquiry at the present time into the working of the Irish Land Act tends to defeat the operation of that Act and must be injurious to the interests of good government in Ireland. But the right hon.
    1752
    Gentleman now admits that he recognizes the fact that there are a vast number of topics which might fairly and legitimately be inquired into. [Mr. GLADSTONE: No!] It is very hard to use language which commands the distinct approval of the right hon. Gentleman; but he is prepared, at any rate, to waive his objections to several subjects: he will admit that an inquiry into the working of the Bright Clauses, possibly into that of the Reclamation Clauses, possibly also into the manner in which the Sub-Commissioners were appointed might be usefully conceded. [Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: No!] Do I understand the Home Secretary to say that he does not desire to meet the charges which have been brought against the Government and freely published in the Press as to the method which the Government have pursued in making these appointments? Will he, under those circumstances, endeavour to narrow down the question to such an extent, and exclude any inquiry whatever into the judicial administration of the Land Act? The Motion, however, of the Lords does not say a syllable about the judicial administration of the Act. It is not mentioned either in the Motion of the Prime Minister. It has appeared before Parliament for the first time in his speech. That, then, must be an after-thought. I admit that I should not approve of an inquiry which would favour interference with the independence of its judicial administration; but the names of the Committee proposed in "another place" are a sufficient guarantee against any such occurrence. Those names number among them several Cabinet Ministers, an ex-Lord Chancellor, an existing Judge of great experience; and it is quite clear that their inquiry would be conducted in such a manner as not in any way to damage the working of the Act itself. The Government deliberately refused to have any of its Members upon the Committee. If the Colleagues of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had been placed on the Committee, they could have readily vindicated the Government at every stage, if necessary, and could have entered their protest whenever they thought fit to take exception to any part of the proceedings. They could have had the whole matter, from their point of view, put before the Committee and the country in a most

    1753
    authoritative way; but this opportunity they have avoided by declining to serve on the Committee. In that respect they have acted very differently from their Colleagues in 1872. Now, what is meant by the judicial administration of the Land Act? It is a new phrase which the Government, apparently, did not think of when they framed this Motion. What did it mean to include and what to exclude? Would it exclude an inquiry into the operation of the Land Act or the results of the decisions under it? [Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: Yes.] Would it exclude the consideration of what is to be done, or only what has been done? Would it exclude the question of what compensation was to be given, in any shape or form, by either advances made to owners, as suggested in the Press, or by increased facilities under the Bright Clauses being given? Would it exclude all consideration of the rules which had been determined with respect to the subject of costs? That was a general rule liable to variation, was that intended to be excluded? [Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: Yes.] Would the words in question prevent inquiry into the way in which visits were made to land, in every case, by those who were intrusted with the administration of the Act? [Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: Yes.] Was all inquiry into whether there were any general principles upon which the Sub-Commissioners acted to be excluded':' [Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: Certainly.] I find that Professor Baldwin says in one passage of a recent judgment in an Ulster case—
    "I now say, in the presence of my colleagues, that the principles on which we have proceeded were put down before we turned a sod. We have not stated these principles anywhere."
    Is that to be excluded? [Sir WILLIAM HARCOURT: Certainly.] And the question of the value of the tenant right declared by the Sub-Commissioners also? I do not desire to go into particulars; but I would instance a case in which the rent was reduced from £114 to £100, and the tenant right valued at £1,200; whereas the maximum valuation under the late Act would have been £250. Or would it be legitimate to inquire into the way in which appeals are being heard?—that obviously comes within the words of the Prime Minister's Motion. There is an absolute block in the primary and the appellate business now. There is not a
    1754
    chance of disposing of the work for many years unless some relief is afforded. There is not a prospect of the cases now entered being worked off in any reasonable time, or of the Court overreaching the work before it. Is it not vital for the Act itself to inquire into the best way of dealing with this block? Then there is the vast expense of working the Land Act. Is not that a legitimate subject of inquiry? That expense, I am told by a competent authority, will be, year by year, about £100,000. Is not that an enormous burden to put upon the taxpayers of the country? When the Commissioners were framing their rules they, being desirous to lure tenants into the Court, made the forms facile, and placed the charge for stamps so low that they practically invited the tenants to come in without paying anything worth speaking of. A tenant farmer pays 1s. for his originating notice, and for that small payment he gets a Court which will fix his rent for a term of 15 years, renewable for ever, a substantial reduction of rent, and all the other immense advantages offered to him by the Land Act. Surely the nation has a right to inquire whether the expense of the Land Act shall be entirely borne by the Imperial Exchequer, or whether those who have the benefit of it should not contribute more. "The judicial administration of the Land Act" are words so vague as to include what, it must be admitted, should not be included; whereas the reasons given by the Prime Minister, and the reasons indicated recently in the Press, apply only to the expediency of not interfering with the independence of the judicial administration of the Land Act. The Prime Minister rather invited this side of the House to assail the Land Act; but I am not going to do anything of the kind. I criticized the Land Act last Session all through its progress firmly, and I hope not unfairly; and I always stated that, once it became law, I should do nothing to interfere with its successful working. I have done nothing, and I mean to do nothing, to interfere with its successful working. This inquiry will not, I believe, do so; and I find it very hard to believe that the Prime Minister, with his vast capacity, really does entertain any idea of the kind. How was the Land Bill presented to us last year from the point

    1755
    of view of landlord and tenant alike? The Bright Clauses, which would enable peasant proprietors to be created, were put forward as the great object of land legislation—the permanent thing to be sought, the permanent good to be accomplished—and I think the Secretary of State for India used the words that the other clauses were to be a kind of modus vivendi until the real end was attained. When, from time to time, inconvenience and injustice to the landlord were pointed out from the framing of some sections of the Act, it was always replied—"This Act will not affect all rents. It is only intended to affect the classes of rent, not very numerous in Ireland, but still existent there, that were unjust and unreasonable." That was the general statement made on the Government side with reference to the Tenure Clauses; and those landlords who might not be satisfied with the working of those clauses were informed that matters had been so adjusted by the Government, and such increased facilities given under the Bright Clauses, that landlords who did not like to remain on could very readily sell. Those were, practically, the whole of the arguments used in support of the Bill. I do not pause to consider whether the administration of the Land Act has been just or unjust, whether the reduction of rent has been reasonable or unreasonable. All I now say is that the effect of the Land Act has been largely to reduce rents, not in a few exceptional cases, but all round, and to upset the balance presented between one part of the Bill and another when the whole question was under review last year. The fair rent and tenure clauses have, practically, killed the other parts of the Bill. Surely it is not unfair to ask for an examination of the whole working of the Land Act, in order to see whether the pendulum cannot be re-adjusted so as to swing with greater precision and force. The inquiry will do a great deal if, without undoing a single advantage obtained by the tenant, it causes Parliament to seriously and justly consider whether it should not re-examine the Bright Clauses, and the conditions under which they regulate advances, in order to see if those clauses cannot be so re-arranged as to establish the balance originated by Parliament and put out of gear by the unexpected working of the Tenure Clauses? The most common justice demands such an
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    examination. Not one shilling need be lost to the ratepayers—not one farthing's damage need be done to the tenant by such a process. But that end cannot be attained if the inquiry is mutilated, if you exclude one great fact from examination—namely, what has been done under the Tenure Clauses. The almost complete killing of the Bright Clauses by he Tenure Clauses was never contemplated when the Bill was before Parliament. It was thought and assumed all through the debate that they would have a vast operation. The Prime Minister estimated £10,000,000 as the figure which would be required to carry on their operation during the first few years after the passing of the Act. Then in the month of February—the very month in which I am speaking—he would be prepared, he said, to make a further proposal to Parliament, if necessary. So startling, so unexpected has been the working of the Act that I believe there is absolutely no application under the Bright Clauses. Certainly a few thousands of pounds would cover them all. It was suggested last Session that there would be no purchase of land except under the Statute; but the Prime Minister said he did not believe that at all. The invincible logic of facts shows that that belief of the Prime Minister's was absolutely fallacious. If I wanted proof of the fact I should find it in the pamphlet lately published by Mr. Fottrell—a pamphlet which was in some particulars an able one, the work of a man who had considerable knowledge of his subject. Mr. Fottrell, with rather more cynical frankness than I should myself, perhaps, venture to employ, says—
    "The landlord who is wise will remember that he has now no probable purchaser but his tenant. The purchasing public will for each estate be practically limited to the tenants upon it; the landlords must sell to them or not at all."
    That is now the position of matters. And what inducement has the tenant now to buy when he can go into Court and get a tenure for ever and a substantial reduction of rent? The absolute unsaleability of land was strikingly shown a short time ago in the Landed Estates Court, Dublin. On the 12th of this month, some land in the county of Meath—such as used to go for 30 or 35 years' purchase—the best land in the whole of Ireland, was put up, but found no bidder. There were no bids from the

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    public, and there were none from the tenants, for the reason already indicated, and the sale was adjourned. The same thing happened in the case of an estate in Mayo. Much has been said by the Prime Minister about the Assistant Commissioners. I have never indulged in any rash and unmeasured abuse of those gentlemen. They are not to be blamed for accepting posts placed at their disposal by the Government. It is the Government who are to blame if they have appointed gentlemen open to criticism. The Government had the most absolute control over the conditions and the salaries of the appointments; and if they have fixed such conditions that they could not obtain men who command confidence, they, and not the men, are to blame. Now, I pass one broad criticism upon all the appointments that have been made recently—upon 24 out of the 36; they are only held for 12 months. Is it possible to have a firm, independent, and impartial tribunal, composed of men who feel that the breath of their official nostrils depends absolutely upon the favour of the Government? I do not say that these men may not be of blameless honour and integrity in their private life; but they must administer their functions with all the infirmity of judicial instability—an evil recognized all through our Constitution. In the Revolution of 1688, one of the greatest reforms effected was to give a permanent tenure of office to the higher Judges, instead of keeping them dependent upon the pleasure of the Crown. And yet you expect the landlords of Ireland to be satisfied with, and public opinion to acquiesce in, the decisions of gentlemen who, if they do not please the Government in every particular, can be quietly left out of the re-appointments at the end of the 12 months' duration of their office without having any right to complain. I say that the position of those gentlemen is unconstitutional; that it is unfair to the public and to the suitors. Let me, in order to illustrate my argument, just remind the House of what took place during the late Londonderry Election. The manner in which the Assistant Commissioners discharged their functions was relied upon by the hon. and learned Solicitor General for Ireland as a great topic and argument to be used against a change of Government But
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    surely the status and the tenure of office of a Judge should not be turned into a weapon to be used in political warfare. The hon. and learned Gentleman having indicated in more speeches than one that those men had only a tenure of office for a year, and that, in his opinion, the reductions in the rents had not yet been carried far enough, he went on to remark that if a change of Government occurred, the men who would be appointed in their places would be more open to criticism from the tenants' point of view than they were. I am entitled to make that criticism upon the conduct of the Government, and to say that it would be most beneficial if any inquiry by any Committee of either House of Parliament would tend to secure the further independence of the Sub-Commissioners in the exercise of their judicial functions. I have asked whether the Government Motion is the wisest that could have been made at this juncture? In my opinion, it is the very worst that could have been brought forward under the circumstances. The reasons which have been put forward by the Government themselves in support are really inconsistent with it, and the debate which they have inaugurated is calculated to make confusion worse confounded. The Prime Minister, most of all, must have known, when he brought forward this Motion, that he was inaugurating a Parliamentary inquiry into the working of the Land Act more strict and more searching than any that could be conducted by the Committee of the House of Lords. It is idle for the Prime Minister to endeavour to excuse himself in the eyes of public opinion by saying that he has framed his Motion within well-defined limits. Never was a Motion more deliberately calculated to excite strong criticism from all around. It actually challenges the Opposition Benches to say all they can with reference to the administration of the Land Act, and it challenges those on this side of the House below the Gangway to express their opinion on the condition of Ireland also. It is, therefore, a Motion calculated to give rise to indefinite, protracted, and unlimited discussion. But if the Motion is indefinite in its scope, the speech of the Prime Minister did not diminish that scope. The matters to which I have directed attention are so plain and so obvious that I cannot but think that the

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    Prime Minister must have had them in his mind when he framed his Motion. They have been pointed out over and over again in the Press, and I have no doubt but that they must have been referred to frequently in private conversations with the Prime Minister, or else why did he resort to the meeting that was held to-day? What occurred at that meeting? I am sure I do not know. We shall, however, all know very soon through the organs of public opinion every word that was uttered at it. Therefore, I will not speculate upon what occurred there. But what effect will this Motion have? The House of Lords, in appointing a Committee to inquire into the working of the Land Act, have merely exercised their Constitutional right; and an inquiry of that kind, conducted as it will be by capable and experienced men, can do no harm, and may do a great deal of good. I should like to test the right hon. Gentleman's action against the House of Lords by putting this case. How would the right hon. Gentleman like a discussion to take place in the House of Lords on his own words with reference to Home Rule? Supposing the House of Lords had brought before it a Motion couched in these terms—"That the words used by the Prime Minister with reference to Home Rule are calculated to lead to unfounded and exaggerated hopes of Home Rule, are injurious to the best interests of good government in Ireland, and are prejudicial to the state of all society there." Would not such a Resolution express what is the opinion of the vast majority of educated people in this country, and what, if for once a Vote could be taken by ballot in this House, would be the opinion of the vast majority of this House? ["No!"] Oh, I say, if the Vote in this House could be taken by ballot. After the meeting of to-day we are to have no speeches from those Benches—it is only the voices that are to be given to the Prime Minister. There are many other topics in the Prime Minister's speech which call for observation; but I feel that I have already occupied for too long a time the attention of this House, and I cannot deal with them on this occasion. I ask, however, in conclusion, what good can possibly result from this Motion of the Prime Minister? Can it check or stay the action of the Committee of the House of
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    Lords? May it not have a confusing effect upon the whole conduct of Business in this House? It is very easy to start a Motion, to say hard things of your political opponents, and to get the enthusiastic cheers of your now united Party; but you cannot confine and limit the debate upon that Motion. At a period of the Session when the Business of the House is already getting into confusion, and when there is great pressure upon the time of the House, the Prime Minister has deliberately embarked us in a new and endless Party discussion which cannot help to the better administration of the Land Act, and may tend to create further disturbance in Ireland. I shall give such a Motion no countenance whatever; and I trust that the vast majority of this House, at all events on this side, and some on the other side, will acquiesce in my view, when I move, as I do now, the Previous Question.
    Previous Question proposed, "That the Original Question be now put."—(Mr. Gibson.)
    VISCOUNT LYMINGTONasked the indulgence of the House to address a few words on the Motion, as one who was directly and very materially interested in the cause of property and order in Ireland. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson) challenged the Prime Minister to prove the utility of this Motion; but on his (Viscount Lymington's) side of the House they had some right to challenge the utility of a Committee which, with equal ease and equal facility, was formed in the other House, and was really the cause of this debate. He earnestly trusted that the debate would not lapse into a discursive and absolutely unprofitable discussion upon the question of the Irish Land Act, and that hon. Members opposite would not re-open a debate upon principles and a legislative policy to which, after the most protracted and deliberate discussion, Parliament, and in this respect the other branch of the Legislature, had given its unanimous consent only a few months ago. During the debate on the Address he had listened, in conjunction with many other Members on that side of the House, with the most respectful attention to the eloquent speeches addressed to the House by Members on the other side of the

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    House, and he could not fail to be sensible to the beautiful and touching speech in which the senior Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Plunket) had pleaded the cause of the landlords of Ireland. But, eloquent as those speeches were, they were characterized by a singular want of appreciation of the position of public affairs in Ireland, and especially of the truest interests of property and order. It was not likely that any practical conclusion would be arrived at—any conclusion which would carry conviction and be accepted by the people of this country in regard to the administration of the Land Act—from the discussion of matters of so eminently delicate a character as the adjudication of rents, matters in which opinions should not be expressed unless they were based upon facts so clear that they could not be disputed in debates in this House, conducted as the practical experience of the past had shown them to be either in a Party spirit, or in a spirit of special pleading carried on between the several Law and ex-Law Officers of the Crown across the Table. The adjudication of rents by the Assistant Commissioners could not at present be satisfactorily discussed by the House, and he should therefore avoid any reference to that or to any irrevelant topics outside the immediate question of the expediency of the Committee appointed by the House of Lords. The objections which the Prime Minister had urged against the inquiry were conclusive to his mind, and he thought it highly inexpedient for any Branch of the Legislature not to accept the solemn declaration made by the Executive through the Prime Minister regarding the effects which the action of that Committee would be likely to produce. He (Viscount Lymington) was fully prepared to admit that the simple question of the conduct of the Sub-Commissioners and of their decisions, and the mode of their decisions, was one which had no right to be estimated from any political or any other standpoint than that of strict justice. But the Committee of the other House, even if there were no general objections to its appointment, did not even pretend to confine itself to this matter. It was to inquire not only into the working of recent legislation in Ireland, but as to its effect upon the condition of the country. What did that
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    mean, unless it meant a re-examination into those principles of polity and of legislation which were supported in this House by a majority of the Conservative county Members for Ireland and accepted without a division in "another place?" The House of Lords was as responsible for the passing of the Land Act as any Member on that side of the House. ["No, no!"] Hon. Members opposite seemed to question that. If they did question it they really were calling in question that which the Conservative Party had been the last to question—the independent right of the other House. Or did they mean to imply that that measure was only agreed to in a spirit of sullen fear and dislike, and was now to be reviewed by persons acting in the double capacity of accusers and judges in the very cases which they had themselves prejudged? Ireland had too long been the battle-ground of Party politics; but if ever there were an occasion on which it was consonant with the truest and highest principles of public policy to support the Executive in that country it was now. Speaking for himself, he would say that if the Irish Executive were selected from Members on the other side of the House he would give them in such a crisis his entire support. As one interested in the cause of law and order in Ireland, he viewed with alarm the effect which an inquiry, such as the House of Lords had decided to undertake, would have upon the people of that country. In the first place, that Committee constituted in itself an assertion of a want of confidence in the Executive. He would like to ask what single recommendation it had for popular support or for the confidence of impartial persons? It was not a representative Committee of the House of Lords, but composed entirely of malcontents with the present Government. Still loss was it a representative Committee of impartial men of knowledge and distinction, whose Report would carry weight and conviction. What could be more absurd than for a Committee, of which eight Members were Irish landowners, to attempt to pass in review matters and questions in which they themselves were directly and personally interested? The only practical effect that it would have would be to weaken the authority of the Executive. All who wished well for the

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    success of the Land Act desired it to be administered in a fair and impartial manner; and if the impression strengthened and the feeling in the future became more general that injustice was being done in Ireland, he for one would gladly support a Parliamentary inquiry, but not under such circumstances as at present existed. They who supported the Land Bill in Parliament and who were anxious to secure for it a fair trial could not consent to one Branch of the Legislature reviewing the principles upon which it was founded a few months after they had been agreed to. In any Parliamentary inquiry into the administration of the Land Act by the Sub-Commissioners he did not think that the public, or that reasonable opinion among the tenant-farmers of Ireland would be satisfied unless that Committee was composed, not of a particular class, every member of which had expressed a certain class of views in regard to tenant-right, but also of persons of integrity and position who were representatives of reasonable Irish opinion. As he said previously, he would so far admit that if the opinion strengthened that the Assistant Commissioners were acting with partiality, he would not object to a Parliamentary inquiry into their proceedings; but that body of men, to be effective, must be differently composed to that now appointed by the House of Lords. But he could not conceive that anything would be more likely to prejudice the moral effect of a representative Committee, worthy of public confidence, than the institution of a Committee similar to the one now appointed by the House of Lords, which only represented the landlords, and was without the confidence of a large minority of the House by whom it was appointed. Connected with the landed interest in Ireland, and apart from the practical objections which he had alleged against the institution of this Committee, he could not adequately describe the deplorable results which he believed it would have upon the influence of the landowners themselves. The landlords of Ireland were not a numerous body, and at the present moment they were face to face with what the Prime Minister had eloquently described as one of the most gigantic conspiracies of modern times, not only against law and order, but against their just and lawful rights.
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    Against that conspiracy the Government were engaged in a fierce and bitter contest; and he would ask the House if the course the landlords were at present pursuing was not in an eminent degree unwise and contrary to the interests of Conservatism and property in Ireland? It was one of the most deplorable and melancholy incidents in this crisis that, instead of supporting an Executive which was risking much support and much popularity on their behalf in endeavouring to maintain their just rights, they should afford to the people of Ireland the spectacle not of a body of impartial and independent men, but of men who, at the time of one of the greatest and most serious crises in the history of Ireland, were unable to rise beyond the most common feelings of class interest and political animosity.
    SIR HENRY HOLLANDdesired, in a very few words, to state the reason why he should vote for the Previous Question moved by the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson). He could not bring himself to believe that this was a question of paramount urgency, in spite of the eloquent speech of the Prime Minister. It was assumed that the appointment of this Committee in the Lords was premature. Well, was it to be wondered at if Irish landlords, aye, and for the matter of that, English landlords, and all persons owning property, should view with anxiety the working of the Land Act, and the present state of things? Members on this side of the House opposed that Act on three grounds, and were justified by the result in that opposition. They opposed it, first, on the ground that it would lead to great litigation. This was strongly denied by the Government; but what was the fact? Thousands of cases had been lodged in the Courts, which it would take years to dispose of. They opposed it, secondly, on the ground of confiscation. What did they find? The Sub-Commissioners, acting, probably, conscientiously, but with a distinct bias in favour of the tenants, had made a general reduction of rents varying from 15 to 25 per cent. And the third ground upon which the Act was opposed was that it would not tend to secure that peace in Ireland which was desired as much by Members on this side of the House as on the other side. He need

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    hardly ask whether that peace had been secured. No one would say that it had. Was it then to be wondered at, when the hopes held out by the Government proved thus fallacious, that those who felt alarmed and wronged should bestir themselves? He must, with reference to the reduction of rent, express his astonishment at one point which had not been mentioned to the House. The Government constantly during the passing of the Bill stated that they did not expect any large reductions, as bad and rack-renting landlords were but few in number. But a few nights ago the Chief Secretary of the Lord Lieutenant stated that from his experience in 1848—the time of the Potato Famine—and since, he was satisfied that rents all over the country were much too high, and must be reduced. Why did he not get up last year and state this belief, which was in direct contradiction to the statements of his Colleagues, and which would have materially affected the debate? But, if the Committee was premature, there was no danger, he (Sir Henry Holland) contended, to the working of the Act, if the Committee was composed of men of sense, alive to the difficulties of the case. Hard language had been used by the Prime Minister and the noble Lord who had just sat down; but it was sufficient to read the names of the Members of the Committee to see that such charges of unfairness and partiality were unfounded. Was it reasonable to suppose that all the Commissioners and Sub-Commissioners would be summoned before the Committee, and that thus the legal proceedings would be stopped? The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister cut the ground under his feet when he proved—and he (Sir Henry Holland) did not dispute it, so far as the Chief Commissioners were concerned—that if these Judges were called upon to state the reasons of their judgments, they would follow the great example of Chief Justice Holt, and decline to do so. If this were so, of what value was the great concession he made—that if the Committee would give up inquiry into the judicial working of the Land Courts, he would not oppose it? There could be no objection to the Committee inquiring into the result of the decisions of the Court and reporting upon it, so as to raise the question if the landlords were entitled
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    to compensation. There could be no objection to the Committee inquiring into the working of many other clauses of the Land Act, and other questions which had been referred to by the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin. If any danger was to be anticipated from the appointment of the Committee, it would already have shown itself. But Ireland had not been excited by the action of the House of Lords, and no hostility to the Land Act or doubts concerning it had been raised. No case of paramount urgency had yet arisen, and if it arose at all, it would only arise when the Committee had been some time at work. The disadvantage of the premature appointment of the Committee, if it was premature, would be found in the fact that their Report could not have as much value and weight as if it had been based upon a longer working of the Act. For these reasons, he (Sir Henry Holland) should oppose the Resolution of the Prime Minister.
    MR. BRANDsaid, the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down based his objections to the Resolution on the ground that the Act had not brought satisfaction to Ireland; but who could expect any very appreciable results from a measure which had not been in operation more than four months? In 1872 a Committee was moved for by Lord Ripon in the House of Lords to inquire into the judicial proceedings of the Act of 1870; but that was 18 months after that Act had been launched. Of 80,000 cases now pending, only 1,400 had been adjudicated upon. No appeals had been made, and yet the right hon. Gentleman called for a full and thorough working of the Act. With reference to the statement of the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Gibson), that no language had been used by the Ministers of the Crown in the House of Lords equal in strength to the language of the Prime Minister when objecting to the action of the House of Lords, he said that he had distinctly understood the Members of the Government in the other House to oppose the appointment of the Committee, on the ground that the Resolution, if agreed to, would be equivalent to an arraignment of the Judges appointed by the Crown to administer the Land Act. He challenged Members on the opposite Benches to adduce a single precedent of a Committee being

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    appointed to inquire into the operation of an Act of Parliament which had only been working for four months. He could understand the objection to the Motion on the ground that it might bring about a collision with the House of Lords; but he could not admit the reasonableness of the plea that the House of Commons had no right to interfere with the other House in respect to the appointment of Select Committees. The doctrine that the House had no right of that kind was unconstitutional, and if carried out would paralyze the action of any Government opposed by a hostile majority in the Upper Chamber. By the appointment of this Committee the House of Lords had endeavoured to usurp the functions of the Executive Government. The Amendment moved in 1839 by Sir Robert Peel to Lord John Russell's Vote of Censure on the House of Lords stated—
    "That it is not fitting that this House should adopt a proceeding which has the appearance of calling in question the undoubted right of the House of Lords to inquire into the state of Ireland in respect to crime and outrage, more especially when the exercise of that right by the House of Lords does not interfere with any previous proceeding or Resolution of the House of Commons, nor with the progress of any legislative measure assented to by the House of Commons."—[3 Hansard, xlvii. 76–77.]
    He contended that it was clear from the terms of that Amendment that so eminent a Conservative statesman as Sir Robert Peel would not have sanctioned the policy of the other House in appointing a Committee to institute an inquiry concerning an Act of Parliament only recently passed by the Legislature. What, he asked, was the purpose for which the Committee had been appointed? "Was it to inquire into the administration of the Act itself? If so, the Commissioners and Sub-Commissioners would have to give evidence, and attempts would be made to get those gentlemen to commit themselves in cross-examination. The Committee, however, might very probably be met by a refusal on the part of the officials in question to answer the questions put to them. Had the Committee been appointed for the purpose of damaging the Act? If so, the House of Lords had resolved upon an exceedingly dangerous course. A Statesman of eminence in the ranks of the Conservative Party (Lord Salisbury) had said that the intention was that the Committee should inquire into the ap-
    1768
    pointments that had been made. No one would think that this was reasonable or just. For this purpose it would be necessary to call as a witness the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant. Was it likely that any Minister of the Crown would submit to a cross-examination by a hostile Committee upon his exercise of patronage? The proper course was to bring forward any case of alleged abuse of patronage, and propose a Vote of Censure on the Government. He knew nothing about the administration of the Act beyond ex-parte statements in "another place" and in the Press, and from the published particulars as to reductions of rent. The data for an inquiry did not yet exist. A sufficient number of cases had not been adjudicated upon to enable them to judge of the Act. The question, then, was this—Was the Government justified in this Motion? He was not prejudiced in favour of the Land Act. But it was the law of the land, and hon. Gentlemen who prided themselves on being staunch supporters of the Constitution should, of all men, recognize it as such. Even if the case for an inquiry were ten times stronger than it was he would still say that Irish landlords, in their own interests, not to speak of the interests of their country, ought to have waited for a course of time to have elapsed which would have enabled them to take a more extended view of the operations of the Act. If there was a case for compensation or restitution to any class, their ease would only be stronger after the lapse of time, and it was more than childish to put in a claim to compensation at a time when it was impossible for them to prove that claim. He desired to say nothing in detraction of the other House. He, however, perceived of late, with deep regret, that when a Liberal Government was in power, the action of the other House was to hamper legislative measures and obstruct them. The hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) sometimes gave a Notice with reference to the House of Lords which caused amusement. Hitherto that House of Lords had inspired confidence in their public spirit; but if their recent action were repeated—if, when the Minister of the Crown made an appeal to them to help him in endeavouring to crush a treasonable and immoral conspiracy, instead of supporting him, the

    1769
    House of Lords took action to embarrass the Executive—then he was afraid that the Motion of the hon. Member for Northampton would acquire a significance which it did not at present possess. The Irish Members opposite, he warned Conservative Members, were very astute in the course they were pursuing in opposing this Motion, because they saw, or thought they saw, in the action of the House of Lords that the landlords were only constructing a rope with which to hang themselves. He had no doubt as to the vote he should give. He should give it in support of the Government. He cast the responsibility of the situation on the other House; and he was convinced if the Government had bowed to the decision of the Lords they would have destroyed all confidence in the Land Act by the tenants, and would have plunged Ireland into an even worse condition of anarchy and disorder than it had been in during the last few months.
    MR. A. J. BALFOURsaid, his hon. Friend who had just spoken had exceeded the zeal even of the Prime Minister against the House of Lords. His hon. Friend had uttered the most gloomy vaticinations against that august Body if it presumed to do that which the Prime Minister had reminded them it had always been in the habit of doing. It appeared to him that, if the House of Lords could not venture to exercise the simplest rights which belonged to it, it would hardly be worth preserving or abolishing. His hon. Friend said the House of Lords was responsible for the conflict which was described as a great national calamity. But how could the House of Lords foresee that the Government would take this strange and reckless course? The Prime Minister said the House of Lords meant to interfere with the judicial proceedings of the Land Commission in Ireland. That was very vague. Did it mean that the House of Lords meant to revise the decisions of the Commissioners? Nothing could possibly be more absurd. It had been said that the House of Lords was going to constitute itself a final Court of Appeal. They had no power to do that, nor was there any reason to think that they had the wish. The Prime Minister said that his chief objection to the action of the House of Lords lay in this—that our rule in Ireland depended upon the English garrison, that
    1770
    the strength of the English garrison lay in Ulster, and that if Ulster thought that the Land Act was menaced its loyalty would be shaken and English rule in Ireland would be seriously imperilled. But how could the Committee of the House of Lords interfere with the Act? They had no legislative power. Their power was confined to examining the operation of the Act; and unless—which the Government would hardly anticipate—their examination led to revelations of so extraordinary a character that the Government and the House were convinced that some alteration was required, it was impossible that the Committee of the House of Lords should endanger the existence of the Land Act in its present shape. It was supposed that the action of the House of Lords would alarm tenants who had already had 20 or 30 per cent of their landlords' property handed over to them, or those other tenants who counted on a similar present. But the Committee of the House of Lords had no power to stop the action of the Land Commissioners. If the evidence showed that the Act was worked upon wrong principles, and that the tenants received that which the Legislature never intended to give them, the effect might be either some measure of compensation to the landlords, or some great extension of the Purchase Clauses which would practically lead to the same result. But that would in no way imperil what tenants had already secured or what they had any reasonable expectation of securing. If the Prime Minister were now in the House, he would like to ask him whether the disappointment of the tenants with the working of the Act would render our power in Ireland insecure, and if Ulster alone was what we had to depend on, did not that show the futility of establishing a Court of Appeal in Ireland? For would it not be fatal to peace and order in that country if the Court of Appeal did not take the same view as the Sub-Commissioners? Was not that an admission on the part of the Prime Minister that the Court of Appeal was merely to register the decrees of the subordinate Court? His hon. Friend who had last spoken defied anyone to find a precedent for a Committee of Inquiry into the working of an Act only four months in operation. He was not acquainted with any such precedent;

    1771
    but neither did he know of any Act like the one in question. If the action of the House of Lords was without precedent, the law into whose operation they were about to inquire stood without precedent on the Statute Book. The majority of Acts of Parliament proceeded upon established principles, and were carried out by men appointed by the direct action of Parliament. But the principles upon which the Land Act was founded were entirely novel, and the application of those principles was handed over to gentlemen of whom Parliament knew nothing. He had heard it said that by the Act of last year Government were doing something analogous to what had been done in France, Prussia, and other places subsequent to the French Revolution—that they were destroying the feudal system. But, so far from that being the case, the Government by what they had done were returning to a semi-feudal state of things which in the rest of Europe had been abolished. They had established a double ownership, which it was the greatest pride of Prussian statesmanship to have abolished, and they had deliberately turned back the course of civilization by substituting status for contract. At the same time they had borrowed Socialistic doctrines, by substituting State action for competition in determining the value of property. So that the Act was a strange and incongruous combination of feudalism and Socialism. What he wanted to point out was that an Act so exceptional might legitimately require the most minute and detailed examination at every stage of its operation. It was not right that they should leave an Act of so strange a description to be carried out in detail by gentlemen who held their position practically at the will of the Government for the time being. There was a strong primâ facie case for inquiry into what the Prime Minister called "the judicial action of the Land Court," and that was derived from the fact that the results of their judicial action had not been foreseen, either by Parliament which passed the Bill or by the Government who proposed it. It was this that gave rise to the suspicion that the action of the Courts had been administrative rather than judicial, and had been designed rather to pacify the country than to do justice between landlord and tenant. It
    1772
    had been alleged as a ground of confidence in the Land Courts that their decisions showed a remarkable uniformity, inasmuch as, taken one with another, they lowered rents between 25 and 30 per cent, or, as one hon. Member had expressed it, their decisions hovered over Griffith's valuation like a will-o'-the-wisp over a marsh. Supposing a Criminal Court were to decide every case that came before it by giving 10 years' penal servitude to the accused, there would, no doubt, be great uniformity, but a uniformity which hardly proved that it acted on judicial principles. Then it was argued that they should wait until the Act had been in operation some years. But it would be then too late to inquire. If any good was to be done, inquiry must be made at once. Among the many objections to the action of the House of Lords none had produced more effect than the assertion that the House of Lords was a House of Landlords, and therefore the decisions come to by the Committee would be suspected. No one had urged that objection with more vigour than the noble Lord the Member for Barnstaple (Viscount Lymington). Yet the noble Lord the Member for Barnstaple had told the House that he was himself very deeply interested in Irish land; and so, as was well known, was the noble Lord the Secretary of State for India; but no one would suppose that that circumstance vitiated the opinion held by either of those noble Lords on Irish affairs. It was not unreasonable, then, to claim a like fairmindedness for the Members of the other House. And, for that matter, if it were thought impossible for an interested person to give a fair decision, might not a doubt be entertained as to the advice given on this subject by the Government? There were those who urged that the Government had a great deal to lose by the inquiry. The Prime Minister repudiated that suggestion; but many persons believed it, and the best way of discrediting that belief was to acquiesce in the appointment of the Committee. So far, however, from doing that, all the Members of the Government in the other House had refused to serve on the Committee, and in the House of Commons the Prime Minister had given the Commissioners a sufficiently broad hint as to the sort of answer they should make if

    1773
    they were summoned before the Committee. Now, considering the primâ facie case against the working of the Act, and the fact that the Government had told Parliament that it would not lower rents—["Hear, hear!" and "No, no!"]—he was in the recollection of the House—this dilemma presented itself'—either the Government gave totally wrong advice to Parliament, having very imperfect information as to the state of Ireland, or else the Commissioners were not working the Act on the principles expected by the Government. One or other of those propositions was inevitably true. Then, again, the Government, in the course they had taken, had laid themselves open to one of two charges—either the Prime Minister, when he announced his Resolution, was acting under the impulse of some sudden gust of temper, or in the conflict between the Land Court and the Land League there had been some moves in the game that would not bear inspection. ["Oh, oh!"] He did not assert that as a fact; he merely asserted that the conduct of the Government in refusing this inquiry favoured that supposition. At any rate, considering how much the Government were sacrificing the Business which they were pledged to carry, and how little result must come out of this unprovoked contest they had entered into with the House of Lords, he feared that public opinion in the country would be driven to the belief that there was more in the background than the Government cared to expose to the full light of criticism.
    MR. GIVANsaid, he held that Ireland at the present moment was only just recovering from the injurious effects of the landlords' meeting in Dublin to protest against the operation of the Act. That meeting was presided over by a Nobleman who, unfortunately, had a prominent place on the Committee of the other House, the mere composition of which, in spite of the ingenious remarks of the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson), made it clear that its object was to inquire into the conduct of the Commissioners, the basis of their judgments, and the causes of the reductions they had made. The right hon. and learned Gentleman had stated that there were other legitimate subjects of inquiry, as, for example,
    1774
    waste lands and the Bright Clauses of the Land Act; but he had pronounced against an inquiry into the judicial functions of the Commissioners. [Mr. GIBSON: The judicial independence of the Commissioners.] The whole gist of the right hon. and learned Gentleman's argument was that he was not in favour of an inquiry into the judicial acts of the Commissioners. However, taking into account the meeting in Dublin and the speech of the right hon. and learned Gentleman opposite, no one could deny that the tenants of Ireland had good cause for alarm. In Ulster the action of the other House had excited much apprehension, and the newspapers of that Province gave full expression to the protests of the tenants, and their fears of the ill effects that the inquiry would produce on the minds of the people. In his opinion—and he had had an opportunity of sitting in the Courts of the Sub-Commissioners, and of conferring with tenant farmers both at public meetings and privately—there was no doubt that if the Land Act died the hope of Ireland at the present moment would be gone. It was said to be a failure. Why was it a failure? Because it had met with direct opposition from those who. for their own selfish purposes, wished to keep up an agitation which was ruining their country, and because it had not met with that sympathy on the part of owners of property in Ireland which it ought to have met with. He had no hesitation in saying that if there was no counteracting influence to this state of things, the difficulties of the Irish Executive would be seriously increased. The Motion of the Prime Minister was necessary at the present time to correct the effects which had resulted from the unwise and reprehensible conduct of the other House of Parliament.
    SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTsaid, he was struck with the remark of the Prime Minister that it was no part of the duty of that House to censure the other House of Parliament, and yet the right hon. Gentleman proceeded to demolish that statement by showing that this House ought to censure the other House. He himself was not one of those Members who looked lightly upon a collision between the two Houses, and he relied on the Leader of this House, while vindicating the

    1775
    character of this House, not infringing on the privileges of the other. He thought the right hon. Gentleman might have prevented that collision if he had chosen to do so. He had not attempted to prevent it, but had placed it in its hardest and gravest aspects before the country. The right hon. Gentleman had adopted the singular course—for with him. it was a singular course, as it was not his practice to do so—of calling his followers together to consider the subject. [Ministerial cheers.] He perfectly understood those cheers. The question the right hon. Gentleman laid before his followers was the rallying question of the conduct of the House of Lords, the only question that could rally the Party opposite. That was the reason why the right hon. Gentleman had called his followers together, and for that reason his followers had given their absolute adhesion to the course now taken by the right hon. Gentleman. The right hon. Gentleman had taunted the Opposition with an unholy alliance. There was no unholy alliance. He, for one. did not know by what accident the Speaker called upon two Gentlemen sitting below the Gangway on the Opposition side to act as Tellers in the Division; but he did know that the Member who challenged was his hon. Friend (Mr. Chaplin), the Member for Mid Lincolnshire. The Leader of the Opposition, thinking that the outwork was worthless to maintain, had withdrawn a certain portion of his forces, and many others had advisedly retired into the citadel. Let Gentlemen opposite only assault the citadel, and they would soon find that it was made of different materials from those which composed the worthless outwork. After stating that it was no part of the business of that House to assault the House of Lords, the right hon. Gentleman proceeded to make a violent attack upon it. Not one of the instances quoted by the Prime Minister was analagous to the circumstances of the present case. He was not going to advocate the proposition that the course the House of Lords had taken was the most prudent course, still they were perfectly within their right. He would, however, recommend the Prime Minister to consider whether this debate, which would inevitably excite stronger feelings as it proceeded, would not be far more injurious to the state
    1776
    of Ireland than anything the House of Lords had done. But this was not the only occasion on which the right hon. Gentleman had endeavoured to excite public feeling against the House of Lords. The House would recollect that in 1870, when the Army Purchase Bill was rejected by the House of Lords, the right hon. Gentleman, contrary to his express promises, got Her Majesty to sign the Royal Warrant for the Abolition of Purchase, thus using the Queen's authority against the House of Lords. What could they expect of the right hon. Gentleman who had done that in the past, and who was now doing all in his power to excite the country against the House of Lords? The right hon. Gentleman knew that was a good cry for certain portions of his followers. He asserted deliberately, and he believed it to be true, that the course taken by the right hon. Gentleman was the most unfortunate that had ever been taken in the annals of Parliament. It was all very well to come down and say that the proceedings of the House of Lords' Committee would be mischievous to the working of the Land Act; but this House could not prevent the Committee from sitting. In his opinion, serious mischief had been done by not bringing the two Houses together, so that they might arrive at some satisfactory solution of the difficulty. He laid the blame on the right hon.. Gentleman or on another Member of the Cabinet. The right hon. Gentleman had complained most justly of what was taking place in Ireland, yet though he had long been aware of the present state of things he had delayed taking steps to remedy the mischief. He had no hesitation in saying he thought that this was a most unfortunate position in which they were placed, and that they were wasting their time in a barren discussion. It was true the Prime Minister had spoken of the paramount importance of the question now at issue; but the right hon. Gentleman had only made a speech to rally those who were sitting behind him, and not one which would convince him that he was wrong in voting against the right hon. Gentleman's Motion.
    MR. O'DONNELLsaid, it was with a good deal of mental confusion that he endeavoured to approach the ambiguous problem before the House. He had heard some references to "an unholy

    1777
    alliance." If that meant a union between the Conservatives and the Irish Parliamentary Party, such an alliance would certainly not be formed for the mere purpose of pushing forward such an inoffensive Motion as one for the Previous Question. He was singularly interested in observing the remarkable manner in which Conservative indignation approached a climax, and then went off before reaching it. They had had a foretaste this evening of a dashing advance to the front suddenly changing into an equally rapid retreat to the rear. Formidable Amendments were placed on the Paper against the mere proposition for postponing the Orders of the Day; but the moment the test came there was found to be no backbone on the Conservative Front Bench, and the formidable Resolutions of the Opposition evaporated into something very like a "skedaddle." Devoted as the Opposition were to the defence of the Constitution, and convinced as they were of the iniquitous intentions of the Head of the Government, yet they had not ventured to propose a direct negative, but tried to get out of the difficulty by a side door on the Previous Question. He dared say Her Majesty's Government would be disposed to return a certain meed of thanks to the Leaders of the Conservative Party, who would thus prevent the direct raising of the Irish Agrarian Question. With or without the concurrence of their followers, the Conservative Leaders had prevented the Irish Party from bringing forward in a straight forward way their objections to the action of the Government. Nevertheless, while disclaiming all moral responsibility for the expedient of the Previous Question, the Irish Members on that side of the House felt that they would not be doing their duty to their constituents or to the constituents of hon. Members at the other side of the House, but who would be the constituents of their Party after the next General Election, if they did not take advantage of the important opportunity afforded by this debate to state their reasons for thinking that there should be a complete, a searching, and an immediate inquiry into the working of the Land Act in Ireland. Hon. Members who were elected on Home Rule principles, who now supported Her Majesty's Government, had assured the Ministry that
    1778
    there was no desire in Ireland for any inquiry into the working of the Land Act, and that the Act was held in the highest admiration by the Irish people. He could not but think of the famous picture of the French painter, when he heard the loud acclamations of the Member for Cork County and his Friends, in honour of Her Majesty's Government. The real point in this discussion was that it was not directed against the Irish Party, but was a cheap and probably an efficacious plan for obtaining a vote of pseudo confidence in Her Majesty's Government in that House. The sole object of the Motion of the Prime Minister and the sole object of this debate was simply to cast a certain halo of apparent success around a Ministry which had failed in all its undertakings. What had occurred in the House was, he believed, rehearsed in Downing Street this afternoon. The great "confidence trick" was rehearsed there. He met a rejoicing Liberal coming from the great meeting of the Party, who exclaimed with delight—" Well, the Premier has done the right thing at last. I wish he had done it before. It is all right now; he has taken us into his confidence." "What has he told you?" he inquired of the hon. Member, who replied—" Oh, he told us that he intends to go on with his Motion against the House of Lords." This, which was well known before, he believed was the sum total of the confidence poured by the Premier into the bosoms of his faithful followers. He believed that 40 minutes were taken up with an adjuration to the Party to be frank and candid in their criticisms of the Ministry, and in a few minutes more the Party had vanished in a burst of joy at the confidence reposed in them by the Prime Minister. The great point now was success, and he quite agreed with the hon. and gallant Member who preceded him in saying that a Motion against the House of Lords was quite an admirable sort of thing to tickle the ears of the groundlings. Nobody alleged that the Prime Minister was about to follow the lead of the hon. Member for Northampton and move the abolition of the House of Lords; but he entirely agreed with the remark that had been made on that side of the House, that this was an admirable sort of Motion with which to tickle the ears of the groundlings. It enabled the right hon.

    1779
    Gentleman to assume his favourite attitude of "Ajax defying the lightning," and served to direct attention away from the failures of Her Majesty's Government. At every stump hustings during the Recess every Liberal Member would be enabled to call attention to the proud position of Her Majesty's Government with reference to the House of Lords. The Motion would not hurt the House of Lords, it would not hurt anyone; it would only cover the failures of the Government. The Prime Minister had twitted a Member of the Conservative Opposition for provoking applause from a certain quarter of the House, by which he supposed was intended the Irish Parliamentary quarter. Doubtless the Irish Party were a "certain quarter;" but if the right hon. Gentleman ventured upon the experiment of a Dissolution, they would come back with a certain three-quarters of the Irish Parliamentary Representatives. He could not regard the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman as a serious one, but he also looked upon the action of the House of Lords with perfect indifference. The condition of affairs in Ireland was as much beyond the efforts of the House of Lords as of Her Majesty's Government. The Irish people had presented their ultimatum, and had not the slightest intention to withdraw. On the terms alone of purchasing out the landlords and the establishment of a peasant proprietary would the Irish Agrarian Question be solved. The Government might indulge in the recreation of coercion; but any experiments they might try during the few remaining months of their short existence he regarded with perfect indifference. The Irish people had suffered to a certain extent; but there were still Irishmen enough in Ireland to witness the funeral of the Liberal Party. "With regard to the Land Act, the Bright Clauses, in which alone lay the true solution of this question, had been inoperative and staved by Liberal liberality. It would be far better for both landlord and tenant that the tenant should have facilities to buy his holding, and the landlord inducements to sell. As to reclamation, that had not been touched. The Arrears Clause also was an entire nullity. It was dead. About £500 had been furnished by the Treasury towards alleviating the enormous burdens of millions of
    1780
    pounds of arrears that were lying upon the Irish tenants at the present moment. With regard to the provisions with respect to unjust leases, he was sorry to say that, under the interpretation of the Land Commissioners, the number of unjust leases that had been broken, or were likely to be broken, were excessively few indeed. In fact, it seemed to be the ease that, except where a lease contained something abnormally, monstrously, and utterly unjust, the clause against vicious leases was of no avail whatever in Ireland. In the case of Lord Kenmare a lease had been set aside; but then the Commissioners took jurisdiction because something was stated in the lease contrary to fact. The unfortunate tenant was forced to take an injurious lease on exorbitant terms on the penalty, among other things, that if he broke any of the conditions, in the first place, that, if he did not take the lease, he would be evicted; and, secondly, that if he did not carry out the provisions he was to acknowledge his holding to be worth twice what it was really worth. A case had just come before the Land Commission which was one of the test cases for the selection of which Mr. Parnell was thrown into prison, and the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy) was compelled to cross the sea for a season. It was the case of a tenant of Lord Kenmare, and it was a monstrous case of landlord cruelty. The facts proved in the case were a comment on the Premier's fair play in denouncing in his Leeds speech the policy of selecting such cases. No doubt the provisions of the Act relating to the fixing of fair rents were a comparative success, when compared with other provisions of the Act. The other parts of the Act were not working at all; they were stillborn failures. And why was this one part of the Act a success? Because, in the teeth of the solemn declarations of the Premier, there had been reductions of rent which reached the average of 25 per cent. But these were against the engagements of the Premier to Parliament on the faith of which the Act was passed. If the engagements had been carried out in the decisions of the Sub-Commissioners, the Fair Rent Clauses would have been as stillborn as every other part of the Act. Why had the rents generally been reduced 25 percent? Because the Sub-Commissioners obeyed

    1781
    the directions, not of the right hon. Gentleman, but of the right hon. Gentleman's master in Ireland, who was under look and bar within the walls of Kilmainham; because Mr. Parnell spoke of reducing them 75 per cent. If Mr. Parnell had spoken of reducing them 25 per cent, the reductions would have been about 5 per cent. The speech of the Premier showed that this was not a question between the two Houses, or between two principles, but that it was one between two personal protagonists—the right hon. Member for Mid Lothian and the hon. Member for the City of Cork; it was between them that the real struggle lay. The Prime Minister said it was between the Land Act and the Land League. It was fortunate for the Land League that it had nothing more formidable to oppose than the Land Act, and the longer that was so the more certain was the success of the Land League. To avert this the Government must go beyond their present limits and adopt other principles, and that would not be exceedingly difficult when they were imbued with the necessities of political progress. They must go far beyond any declarations made in that House if they were to combat the Land League at all on equal terms. He was not without hope that the Government would adopt the suggestion. Last year they spoke not of 25 per cent reduction; this year they denounced the House of Lords because it continued to entertain the opinions they held six months ago. In a little time 50 per cent reduction would present no more moral obstacles to advancing statesmen than 25 per cent did. This confidence in their latent capacity for progress was well-founded. [Cries of" Divide!"] Unfortunately, he was not invited to the meeting of the Liberal Party that day, and therefore he was not so overwhelmed with the Premier's confidence as those who cried "Divide!" The Premier referred in tones of triumph to the 70,000 tenants who had invested their property in the cost of applications to the Land Court. But most of them would spend as much in treating a friend as they had invested in the Act, for the 70,000 applications could be made at the cost of a shilling each. Fewer than 1,400 cases of dispute between landlord and tenant had received even a first hearing by the Courts under the Land Act; and even assuming
    1782
    that all those 1,400 tenants were satisfied with the decisions in their cases, how was the Act likely to conciliate or pacify the 400,000 or 500,000 tenant farmers who were prevented by the block in the Land Courts from obtaining access to that tribunal? Every decision cutting down rents 25 to 30 per cent was tantamount to a solemn declaration to the great mass of the tenants outside the Court that in all probability if their cases could only be heard they would have their rents similarly reduced. That could hardly operate as an inducement to them to pay their unreduced rents in the meantime. The fundamental principle of the "no rent" manifesto was that a large portion of the existing rents belonged, not to the landlord, but to the tenant; and the decisions of the Land Commissioners, as far as they went, constituted the strongest confirmation of that theory. The action of the Commissioners in reducing rents supported the proposition that the existing rents were tenant robbery, and that the tenants were justified during the suspension of the Constitution and pending their inability to get from the Courts the relief to which they were entitled in refusing to pay their rack-rents. If the Land Act could succeed it could be quoted as another instance of the constructive genius of the Prime Minister; but, as it was not going to succeed, the only resource left to the right hon. Gentleman was to suppress inquiry into its operation. The Land Act threatened three-fourths of the Irish landlords with ruin and an enormous number of the remaining fourth with severe loss; but the Chief Secretary for Ireland offered to help the landlords to evict their tenantry before that limping, halting Act could come up to hurt them. The First Commissioner of Works, a former friend of Ireland, had actually gone so far as to call on the landlords to act vigorously on their existing rights and turn out their tenants wholesale, and they would be supported by the Government. He would read to the House a few instances of men having large families holding farms whose rentals ranged from £9 upwards, while the valuation was in, nearly all cases less than one-half, who had been cast out with their families upon the roadside because they had not paid accumulative arrears of rack rents. If the Land Act could have applied to

    1783
    any cases it would have applied to them, and their rents would have been reduced; but before the advantages of that Act could reach them they were driven from their homes and lost all benefit they might have received from it. He could multiply cases; but it was present to the knowledge and conscience of the House that the Land Act did not preserve tenants from arrears, and there were 100,000 to 150,000 tenant farmers suffering from the same grievance, whose only remedy lay in close combination, and in agreeing that nobody should take a farm from which another had been unjustly evicted. They asked for an inquiry into the working of the Land Act. If this inquiry was not granted—if the Prime Minister posed in his most infallible attitude, and absolutely refused any consideration in the case of the Irish people, whom his Land Act really did not affect—they must be thrown back more desperately and more resolutely than ever on their own resources. The Bright Clauses did not work, probably because the working of them entailed some expenditure, and the greatest Finance Minister of this or any other age hesitated to set them in motion for fear of disturbing his financial arrangements. The Prime Minister's financial reputation reminded him of those precious porcelain vases, which, unlike ordinary earthenware, were not made for every-day use; and the result was that the Arrear Clauses were not worked and would shortly be interred, and yet the Government came forward and told them that the Land Act enjoyed the confidence of the Irish people, and that nothing but this unholy confederacy of coroneted conspirators could disturb the delightful relations that existed between Her Majesty's Government and the people of Ireland. If the followers of the right hon. Gentleman opposite could listen without a smile to such an astounding assertion as that, he could count upon a species of support that placed him beyond the reach of criticism. He had a majority, a majority which seemed to have taken to its very soul one of Mr. Parnell's most famous doctrines—"Keep a firm grip of your holdings." When the right hon. Gentleman threatened his followers, who spent so much in many ways at the last Election to obtain a seat in that House, with a sudden return to their constituents, what became of argument and logic, what became even of
    1784
    public ridicule itself? They would keep a firm grip of their holdings, and they would follow the dispensers of their destinies into any Lobby.
    MR. STANLEY LEIGHTONsaid, he thought the hon. Member for Dungarvan (Mr. O'Donnell) need not complain of the Motion before the House, because he must well know that any hon. Member who was able to propose a Motion upon which an Irish Member found it impossible to introduce anything that suited his purpose must be very clever indeed. The hon. Member had shown that the Motion for the Previous Question, at any rate, had not prevented him from entering very fully into the merits of the Irish Question. There had been six speeches delivered on the opposite side of the House, and three of them had been made by the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister himself. He regretted very much that more hon. Gentlemen opposite had not joined in the debate. Was it possible that they had been ordered, not only to be speechless, but to sit in their places during the whole discussion on the Previous Question? Besides the speeches of the Prime Minister, there had been two speeches delivered on the other side of the House, which were intelligent, moderate, and, no doubt, gratifying to the House, because they had the additional merit of not being too long. He referred to the speeches of the noble Lord the Member for Barnstaple (Viscount Lymington) and the hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Brand). But he thought the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair must almost have shivered in his seat when he heard the hon. Member for Stroud describing the rope that was being prepared to hang the House of Lords as a rope which was long enough to hang with their Lordships all heirs apparent and heirs-at-law to Peerages. These speeches, he (Mr. Leighton) repeated, were intelligent. He was unable to say the same of the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, for he was obliged to confess, with much regret, that he had been unable to understand it. If it were legal to do so, he would not mind making a bet that if he were to ask any two hon. Members on the opposite side of the House what that speech meant, each would give him a different answer. The right hon. Gentleman first spoke

    1785
    with moderation, and he seemed to describe some sort of compromise which, he was prepared to offer. That compromise, as far as he (Mr. Leighton) understood it, was that in the event of judicial action of the Commissioners being excluded from the inquiry of the Committee, he would then have no objection to the Committee. But the right hon. Gentleman went on to explain that it was impossible to exclude the judicial action of the Land Commission, and then called upon the House to witness that he had made an offer of a compromise which had been rejected. He defied any hon. Member to explain what the right hon. Gentlemen really meant. They must all of them wait until they could read the inspired comments on the speech of the right hon. Gentleman in the newspapers to-morrow; and even then he believed they would fail to find out what compromise he offered, or whether he proposed any compromise at all. For his own part, he thought there would be no difficulty in excluding the judicial action of the Commissioners from the inquiry of the Committee. There were plenty of other matters which might be brought within the scope of the consideration of the Committee—such as the question of Emigration, the Peasant Proprietary Clauses, and, above all, the questions that were connected with the appointment of the Commissioners themselves. Many hon. Members would like to know how they were appointed; they would like to be informed whether any persons who had been asked to serve as Commissioners had declined; and, if so, why they had declined. They would further like to know what instructions the Commissioners had received. They must have received some instructions, because it was impossible to appoint Commissioners without giving them some instructions. There must, therefore, have been instructions, either verbal or written, and it was desirable to know what those instructions were. Was anything told to the Commissioners in their private interview with the Chief Secretary; and, if so, what was it? The first objection of the right hon. Gentleman to the inquiry was that it was an inquiry into the law of the land. But was not every inquiry that was instituted an inquiry into the operation of the law of the land? Did they ever make an inquiry
    1786
    "upstairs" that was not an inquiry into the law of the land? Whenever the working of any particular measure became intolerable there was an inquiry into it. The second objection was that the objects of the inquiry of the Committee were vague. But what could be more vague than the discussion which had now been thrust upon the House of Commons by the Prime Minister? How long was it to go on. Into what minute accusations and counter-accusations was it to enter? The very reasons which induced the Prime Minister to object to the appointment of the Lords' Committee were surely the very reasons which should have prevented him from plunging the House at that particular moment into a discussion of this sort. Now, the weight of authority which a vote of the majority in the House of Commons carried with it depended upon the confidence with which that majority were regarded in the country, and they all knew that they were daily losing the confidence of the country. The House of Commons would have very little intrinsic importance of its own unless it enjoyed the confidence of the country. During the whole of the two last Sessions of the last Parliament the right hon. Gentleman himself was continually attacking both the Government and the House of Commons, because, in his opinion, they had lost the confidence of the country. There could be very little doubt that the present Parliament was losing the confidence of the country. ["No!"] All the facts went to show that it had lost, and was continuing to lose, the support of the constituencies. The Government had certainly already lost the confidence of the Irish Party. ["Oh!"] It was all very well for hon. Members opposite to endeavour to make out that they did not care; but there could be no doubt it was very disagreeable to those who sat on the Front Bench to feel that they had lost the votes of the Irish Members. So far as the present Parliament was concerned the expression of its opinion ought to depend on something more than the mere words of the Prime Minister; and if the confidence of the country in the Government had been shaken, was it not a reason why confidence in the Land Act should be shaken? The right hon. Gentleman had intimated clearly enough that he was running the Land Act

    1787
    against the Land League. What did that mean? Why, that he was trying to underbid the Land League by wholesale reductions of rent by the Land Commissioners. The Lords' Committee, of which the right hon. Gentleman complained so much, was composed largely of old Colleagues of his own. An eminent Member of the Committee was a noble Duke, who was an old Colleague of the right hon. Gentleman in a former Ministry. Therefore the Committee, as it stood, should, at all events, enjoy the confidence of the right hon. Gentleman. The Land Act had failed to produce popular contentment; it had failed to satisfy the farmers; it had failed to reassure the capitalists and the tradesmen; and it had failed to give security to the landlords. If it had failed in all of those respects, was it not reasonable that there should be an inquiry into the manner in which it was being worked? Sooner or later there must be inquiry; and he saw no reason why it should not be undertaken at once. Inquiry there must be, whether the Government and the Liberal majority desired it or not. The right hon. Gentleman himself had plunged them into an inquiry under circumstances which made the discussion necessarily vague and discursive. The right hon. Gentleman said that the Land Act was carried by moderation, and was the grand result of political heroism. But others knew too well that the Land Act was carried by violence and pressure, and, if the expression was not un-Parliamentary, he would add by fraud.
    MR. STAVELEY HILLsaid, he did not propose to detain the House for more than a few minutes; but he wished to supplement the story which had been told by the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister of Lord Chief Justice Holt. The right hon. Gentleman had related an anecdote of the House of Lords having summoned Lord Chief Justice Holt before them, and then called upon him to explain his reasons for having given a certain decision, the object being to show that the Lords were taught a lesson for obtruding themselves upon the province and authority of other people. But the right hon. Gentleman might also have told another story, with which the House of Commons itself ought to be rather better acquainted. In the House of Lords, Lord Chief Justice Holt was taken to task for not having ad-
    1788
    mitted the plea of a celebrated murderer, and he told the Lords that if they would ask him the question in the proper way, he was ready to answer it. But what was the course the Chief Justice took in reference to the House of Commons—a very short time indeed afterwards? The House of Commons attempted to interfere with Lord Chief Justice Holt in the great election case of the Aylesbury men—"Ashby v. White and Others"—and the Speaker went down to the Court of Queen's Bench in his full-bottomed wig, and with his Sergeant and mace, and ordered the Lord Chief Justice to appear before him at the Bar of the House. The Lord Chief Justice addressed him thus—"Begone, Mr. Speaker. Be back in your Chair within five minutes, or I will lay you by the heels in Newgate."
    CAPTAIN AYLMERsaid, that the hon. Member who spoke last on the other side of the House—the hon. Member for Monaghan (Mr. Givan)—complained that nobody had answered the speech of the Prime Minister. Now, he (Captain Aylmer) thought that the Conservative Members had much better grounds for complaining that nobody had replied to the speech which had been given in answer to that of the Prime Minister by the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson). The speech of the Prime Minister reminded him very much of a magnificent picture, in which the colours were vividly laid on by a great master, but in which, like some of Turner's pictures, the subject was very incomprehensible and difficult to make out. He agreed with the right hon. and learned Member for the University of Dublin that the Prime Minister had not adduced a single reason or argument why the House of Commons should pass a Vote of Censure upon the House of Lords. The right hon. Gentleman referred to cases in which, when the House of Lords rejected Bills which had been passed by the House of Commons, the House of Commons vindicated their opinions by bringing them in again. But that was not at all the same question as the one they were now dealing with. It was not the case of a Bill which had been rejected by the House of Lords one Session being re-introduced into the House of Commons another Session; but the question was whether it was desirable that they should pass a Vote

    1789
    of Censure upon the House of Lords for having, in the exercise of their undoubted right, appointed a Committee to inquire into the working of a particular Act of Parliament. A Resolution pledging the House to the principle contained in a rejected Bill, and declaring their intention to bring it in again, was a different matter altogether. The Resolution now submitted by the Prime Minister could have no effect upon the House of Lords, because, so far as that House was concerned, its action was over and finished. The Committee was already appointed, and the Resolution of the Prime Minister could only be regarded as a Vote of Censure, or as an attempt to put the drag upon the wheels of the Committee, just as they were about to be set in motion, without assigning any reason or ground why such a Vote of Censure should be passed. He maintained that if the Land Act was a good and a useful measure, it was good and useful in itself, and those who had supported it so well in its passage through the House of Commons ought not to be ashamed of an inquiry into its working. They ought to be able to bear the light of day without being desirous of burking the discussion. Were they afraid that an inquiry by a Committee of the House of Lords would show that some compensation was fairly and honestly due to the landlords? Was that the reason why the great Liberal Party wished to burke discussion and inquiry? Ought they not to be the first to come forward and say—"If compensation is fairly shown to be due, we are ready to give it?" Were they afraid that an investigation would show that some bias had been displayed in the appointment of the Sub-Commissioners, and that the question had been one in which Party feeling had been allowed to prevail? Were they apprehensive that a full inquiry would bring to light the fact that the Sub-Commissioners had entered upon the discharge of their duties with prejudged ideas and with a foregone conclusion as to what they were expected to do? If these fears were justified by the facts, he was not surprised that there was a desire not to allow the facts to be known. There was but one other alternative, and that was that the Government themselves had lost all confidence in the Land Act. They knew its shortcomings; they were aware that it did
    1790
    not carry out the objects for which it was passed; they knew, further, that Ireland was more troubled now than it was before the Act was passed; that the landlords were dissatisfied and the tenants discontented. All these things would be brought to the light of day by the inquiry of the Lords' Committee, and the country would then know how the strongest Government that ever sat upon the Ministerial Bench had utterly and signally failed in the work they undertook to do. The right hon. Gentleman now brought forward a Motion which could have no effect beyond bringing two Branches of the Constitution into conflict. In doing that what results could the House of Commons expect to obtain? He thought it was the first duty of statesmen to look to what the result of their action would be; and he would like to ask the right hon. Gentleman, and those who would vote with him, what the result of condemning the decision of the House of Lords would be? Did they suppose that the House of Lords would consent to give up the Committee? Certainly not; and they would have the House of Lords calling witnesses and making an inquiry which the House of Commons had condemned as inexpedient. He thought he might fairly ask some Member of the Front Ministerial Bench to get up and explain why, under such circumstances, the House of Commons was asked to pass this Resolution. He could not understand the reticence of the Government, unless it had been ordered at the Downing Street meeting that day. ["Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members opposite appeared to endorse that view; but he did not think that either the House or the country would be satisfied until they had heard from some authorized Member on the Front Bench why it was considered inexpedient at the present moment to have this inquiry. It was quite true that out of 60,000 or 70,000 cases some 1,400 only had as yet been tried; but, taking them all round, he believed the cases already heard to have been representative cases. Everything that might occur in similar cases had occurred in those which had been presented to the Commissioners, and it would be found that the 1,400 contained the groundwork of all the rest. Was it reasonable to suppose that by going on for a longer period it would be possible to obtain more material to

    1791
    work upon? He thought not. He maintained fearlessly that wrong was being done in Ireland at the present moment; and, if that were so, it was the duty both of the House of Commons and of the House of Lords in the most earnest manner possible to get at the truth, and, if possible, to remedy any wrong that was being committed. As he had already said, the House required an explanation upon all of these matters from Her Majesty's Ministers; and before the Prime Minister and the Government forced the House of Commons into a conflict with the other House of Parliament, they ought to be well prepared to show what the result would be, and that by passing the Resolution of the Prime Minister they would put a stop to an inquiry that was dangerous and inexpedient. He believed that the House of Lords had been actuated solely by a desire to do right, and to obtain evidence as to the injustice in the working of the Land Act. That it did work with injustice was recognized on all hands. It was harassing and worrying the tenants, and driving the landlords into beggary, ["Oh!"] Hon. Members disputed that assertion, but he held in his hand a long lawyer's bill of costs against a tenant for the expense incurred in carrying certain cases before the Commissioners. He was therefore justified in saying that the operation of the Land Act was harassing to the tenants as well as to the landlords. When they went to the Court they were not capable of stating their own case, and they were soon drawn into the hands of the lawyers. Therefore, not only were the landlords oppressed, but the tenants were harassed; and he sincerely hoped that the House of Lords would institute their inquiry, and would carry it to an honourable and beneficial conclusion.
    MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid, he should not have intruded himself upon the attention of the House if any hon. Gentleman had risen on the other side to reply to the speeches which had been delivered upon that side, and particularly to the very able speech which had been made by his right hon. and learned Friend the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson). They all understood what the silence on the Government Benches meant. They all understood that it was a specimen of the system under which legislation was to
    1792
    be carried on in future. There was one remark which fell from the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister which had made a great impression upon him. The right hon. Gentleman seemed to rest his case upon the precedent of the collision between the two Houses of Parliament in the year 1831. The right hon. Gentleman said that in that year the Reform Bill was rejected by the other House of Parliament, and that on the next day Lord Ebrington came down to the House of Commons and moved the Resolution which the right hon. Gentleman read. He thought the right hon. Gentleman was mistaken as to the day, although the right hon. Gentleman said that he recollected having been present during the debate. The day following the rejection of the Reform Bill by the other House of Parliament was a Saturday, and it was not until the following Monday that Lord Ebrington moved his Resolution. But, be that as it might, the right hon. Gentleman grounded the course he proposed to take upon the present occasion upon the precedent set in 1831. There was, however, one great difference between the two cases. The Parliament which sat in 1831 was a Parliament expressly elected to pass the Reform Bill. That Reform Bill had been passed through the House of Commons by a very large majority, and, nevertheless, it was rejected by the other House of Parliament. The House of Commons, under those circumstances, were satisfied that they had the country at their back. This case, however, was entirely dissimilar. Two years ago, when the present Parliament was elected, and when the country sent so large a majority to support the right hon. Gentleman, was it upon any question affecting the state of Ireland? Why, the right hon. Gentleman himself had expressly stated, in one of his Mid Lothian speeches, that Ireland for a long course of years had not been so peaceful as it was at that time. Whatever might have been the ground on which the right hon. Gentleman attacked his (Mr. R. N. Fowler's) right hon. Friends upon the Bench below, whatever might have been the long catalogue of crimes he brought against the late Government, Ireland was certainly not a prominent one among them. On the contrary, the right hon. Gentleman admitted that

    1793
    Ireland was more peaceful when the present Government succeeded to Office than it had been for a long time previously. Under these circumstances, considering that the Parliament of 1831 was expressly elected to pass the Reform Bill, and considering that the present Parliament was elected with no reference whatever to Ireland, the two cases were entirely dissimilar, and therefore the analogy which the right hon. Gentleman drew fell to the ground. The noble Lord the Member for Barnstaple (Viscount Lymington), who addressed the House with considerable eloquence in the earlier part of the debate, had called on the Party who sat on that side of the House to give its support to the Executive Government. Now, he (Mr. R. N. Fowler) maintained that, when the interests of the Executive Government in Ireland were in question, hon. Members on that (the Opposition) side of the House had always given to Her Majesty's Government a loyal and disinterested support. They could not have forgotten the Sitting of 42 hours which occurred last year. He believed that on that occasion he sat up as many hours as most hon. Members in order to support the Government. Only the other day he was looking over the Division Lists during the last Session, and he found that he had voted on upwards of 130 occasions in support of Her Majesty's Government. He gave that as a specimen of what one Member on that side of the House had done; other Members had pursued a similar course, and it afforded convincing proof that those who sat on that side of the House, when the best interests of the country were at stake, and when Imperial interests were in peril, had given a loyal and disinterested support to Her Majesty's Government. But it was one thing to support the Government when they thought that the Government was maintaining the interests of the Empire—it was one thing, at such a time, to give them that support which every Government charged with the responsibility of administering the affairs of the Empire was entitled to; and it was quite another thing to follow them and support them in a policy of confiscation. They gave the Government their support when they thought that the interests of peace in Ireland were concerned; but when Her Majesty's Government
    1794
    violated all the principles of political economy by the Bill which they introduced last Session, they gave to it, in the same manner, their stoutest opposition. They had been told that the Land Act was "a message of peace" to Ireland. Since he had had a seat in that House he recollected several "messages of peace" to Ireland. He remembered the time when the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister took his seat upon the Treasury Bench charged with a mission, as he told them, to cut down the Upas tree of Protestant ascendancy. Well, the Upas tree of Protestant ascendancy had been cut down; and he would fearlessly ask any hon. Member on the opposite side to get up in his place and tell them that Ireland was as peaceful at this moment as it was in 1868, when Mr. Disraeli, as he was then, was at the head of the Government, and the Duke of Abercorn was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. Since that time the right hon. Gentleman now at the head of the Government had disestablished the Irish Church. ["Hear, hear!"] He heard expressions of approval from the other side of the House; he could only say that it would be a consolation to him for the remainder of his days to feel that he had not the guilt of sacrilege upon his soul, but that on every occasion he had given his vote against the Bill for disestablishing the Irish Church. But the Protestant Church was overturned in Ireland, and in the overturning of that Church they had succeeded in alienating some of the most loyal of the Irish people. In the year 1870 the right hon. Gentleman at the head of Her Majesty's Government introduced and passed an Act dealing with the Irish Land Question, which hon. Members sitting on those Benches regarded at the time as an Act of confiscation, and which the right hon. Gentleman said would be a settlement of the whole question. But after an experience of the working of that Act extending over 11 years, the Prime Minister and his Colleagues came down to that House last Session, having arrived at the conclusion that the Act was a failure, and stated that it was necessary to introduce a Bill of a more drastic character. The Bill was carried through the House of Commons by the large majority of hon. Members who supported the Government, and it was afterwards passed in "another place." Hon. Members oppo-

    1795
    site might sneer at the action of the House of Lords; but he believed that in the course they took with reference to the Act of last year they were actuated by an anxious desire to do their duty in the very critical circumstances in which they were placed. The Bill passed, and what had been its result? He challenged any hon. Gentleman opposite to rise in his place and state that Ireland was as peaceable at the present moment as it was two years ago when the present Government acceded to Office. But the other House having agreed to a moderate Motion, the object of which was to inquire into the working of the Act of last year, the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister now came to the House of Commons and threw down the gauntlet of defiance to the other House. Under those circumstances, hon. Members on that side of the House had to discharge what was a very plain duty by giving their strongest opposition to the Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman. They were quite conscious of being in a minority; but he reminded the occupants of the Treasury Bench that, although upon taking Office they had a majority of 178, the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman to postpone the Orders of the Day had only been supported by a majority of 133. He repeated that it was the duty of hon. Members on that side of the House to offer the strongest opposition to the Motion before the House, in order to place it beyond the power of the Government to revolutionize the country.
    MR. SEXTONbegged to move the adjournment of the debate.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Sexton.)
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, as Supply was the next Order on the Paper, and as he believed that certain explanations had to be given on the Report, it was not his intention to offer any opposition to the Motion of the hon. Member for Sligo for the adjournment of the debate. With reference to the day to which the debate should be adjourned, he did not know whether it would be of any use to appeal to hon. Members who had Notices on the Paper to give facilities for the continuance of the debate to-morrow. It was for Members who had Notices on the Paper to say
    1796
    whether they were willing to give way. He had only been induced to make that suggestion by a careful inspection of the Notice Paper, which led him to believe that Notices of Motion either related to matters which would not occupy much time, and could be equally well discussed on going into Committee of Supply, or else to subjects which were hardly ripe for discussion. He thought the Motion of the hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. E. N. Fowler) might not unreasonably be postponed until the Estimates were discussed; and with regard to the Motion of the hon. and learned Member for West Staffordshire (Mr. Staveley Hill), he did not know whether it was his intention to proceed with it; but he could hardly imagine that the present was an appropriate time to do so, seeing that the Papers relating to the French Treaty had not been laid upon the Table of the House. However that might be, the Motions on the Notice Paper seemed to him to be such as would neither take up much time nor create any very strong interest; and he could not help thinking that, unless his suggestion were acceded to, an untimely event might take place in the House at about half-past 8 o'clock to-morrow evening. On the other hand, the proposal to continue the debate tomorrow as early as half-past 4 o'clock would, if agreed to, effect a considerable saving of public time, and, as he believed, meet the convenience of hon. Members generally.
    SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHwished to point out that the noble Lord had omitted to refer to the Notice given early in the evening that the Motion relating to the Writ for the County of Meath would come on for discussion tomorrow as a Question of Privilege. As this would give rise to a long debate, he thought it would be hardly worth while to put down this important debate to follow it, because, in all probability, it would not be reached until the end of the evening, or, at all events, at a much later hour than the noble Lord had indicated. He was himself anxious to take part in the debate, and suggested that it should be put down for Thursday next, when there would be a certainty of its being resumed at a convenient time.
    MR. O'DONNELLsaid, he would join in the appeal of the noble Lord the Secretary of State for India to private Members to withdraw their Motions on

    1797
    the Notice Paper for to-morrow, because, if they did so, he had a very important Motion of his own, relating to drunkenness in India, which he should put in their place. There was also the important Motion of the hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. J. Cowen), with regard to interference in the election of Members, which would come forward. For these reasons he thought there were objections to the continuance of the debate to-morrow, while he was quite certain that the effort of the Government to disqualify the hon. Member for Meath would be strongly resisted by the Irish Party. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister having eased his mind on the subject of the House of Lords, he suggested that the present debate should be adjourned until the following week, and that the debate upon the Procedure of the House should be taken up on Thursday. This arrangement would enable the Government to interlard the two debates very nicely, and might possibly be regarded as preferable to that suggested by the noble Marquess.
    MR. R. N. FOWLERsaid, the subject of his Motion was one on which several hon. Members wished to address the House, and on which he thought the Government ought to give explanations to the House; and he must therefore decline to give way.
    MR. STAVELEY HILLremarked, that Tuesday was the day on which the French Treaty expired; and however much he desired to oblige the Government, seeing that 12 years had elapsed since he first made the Motion on this subject, he thought he was entitled to proceed with it.
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEpointed out that the Motion of the hon. and learned Member who had just spoken had no bearing whatever on proceedings for tomorrow in relation to the French Treaty.
    MR. GORSTsaid, it was rather inconvenient for Members who wished to take part in the important debate on Procedure, which appeared on the Paper every day, to wait in the House simply on the chance of its being brought forward. He suggested that it should be put down for some day when there was a certainty of its being reached, instead of its being allowed to appear as the second Order every day of the week.
    MR. CHILDERSsaid, after the opinions which had been expressed by hon.
    1798
    Members opposite, the Government were willing to adjourn the debate until Thursday.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    Debate adjourned till Thursday.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY.—REPORT.
  Resolutions [24th February] reported.
  Resolution 1.
  MR. SEXTONasked whether any steps would be taken to bring before the criminal tribunals of the country those constables against whom a verdict of wilful murder had been returned by the Coroner's Jury, in the case of those persons who lost their lives in the affray which took place in County Mayo?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)was understood to say that he should carefully consider whether a further investigation of the circumstances referred to should take place.
  Resolution agreed to.
  Resolutions 2 and 3 agreed to.
  Fourth Resolution read a second time.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House doth agree with the Committee in the said Resolution."
  MR. SEXTONsaid, that on a previous evening the Attorney General for Ireland had stated, with reference to the detention of Mr. Brennan, that he was not in possession of the facts of the case. He (Mr. Sexton) was now in a position to supply them from a document which he held in his hand. It appeared that the summons was dated the 24th October, and that on the 29th October, two days before the case came on for hearing at Petty Sessions, the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. E. Forster) signed a warrant against Mr. Brennan for "unlawfully assembling with others," the charge being identical with that in the summons. His charge against the Government was that they had imprisoned one man—Mr. Brennan—on the charge on which the 26 other persons, who were present on the occasion in question, were acquitted.
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON)pointed out that the hon. Member for Sligo was not accurately informed of what occurred

  1799
  at the Petty Sessions. The statement of the hon. Member was accurate so far as it related to the summons against Mr. Brennan and several other persons for taking part in an illegal assembly. It was also a fact that Mr. Brennan was detained under the Protection Act. But the cause had not been dismissed—it had been adjourned for three months in order to see if the state of the country would improve in the interim; and he would read a statement by telegram from the Crown Solicitor, which had been received in answer to his inquiry upon the subject:—
  "Mullaghmore case, which was adjourned on the 18th. of last November by Moloney, R. M., for three months, in order to see if state of country would improve in the meantime, came on yesterday. Counsel for defendants asked for dismissal, on the ground that the adjournment had been given for the purpose of giving defendants a chance of good behaviour for three months. I opposed, and showed real grounds of adjournment, and asked to have the defendants returned for trial. Cliffony constable, examined by defendants' counsel to show country quieter; proved 'Boycotting' was going on extensively. All Justices presiding decided on further adjourning case to May 5, to see if country would improve in the meantime."
  It appeared, therefore, that the case was still pending against the men; and when the adjourned hearing came on, if the magistrate did not dismiss the case, the Crown Solicitor would apply to have them sent for trial. In order that there should be no mistake as to the particular case, he, on Saturday, inquired if the telegram he had received was in reply to the telegram he had sent earlier in the day, and in which he had asked for a full Report of the Mullaghmore case in order that he might put the House in possession of the facts. The reply he received was—
  "Your second telegram received. My last telegram was in reply to your first, and is my report of the Mullaghmore case of unlawful assembly on the 4th of last December."
  MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYsaid, he did not think the Attorney General for Ireland had at all improved the position of affairs by the statement he had just made, Twenty-seven men were charged with the same offence; but one of them was imprisoned under the Coercion Act, and the other 26 were brought up, tried, and acquitted. The one man was kept in prison all the time, and was still undergoing a term of imprisonment. An
  1800
  extreme injustice was being practised upon the man, who would probably, had he been tried, have been discharged altogether. He could not imagine what defence could be set up for such an extraordinary proceeding.
  MR. HEALYsaid, he trusted they would get some explanation in addition to that just offered by the Attorney General for Ireland. The Chief Secretary had been charged so often with unfairness in the matter of arrests that he should be especially cautious what steps he took to secure the payment of rent to one of his Colleagues in the Government, the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight (Mr. Evelyn Ashley). The hon. Gentleman might or might not get his rent; but the fact remained that a principal Land Leaguer, Mr. Henry Brennan, had been thrown into gaol under the Coercion Act, while 26 men who were engaged in exactly the same crime, if it were a crime, were discharged. The assembling was admitted—the police could prove the whole of the men were there—and it was simply a question whether the assembly was an illegal one. What did the Government do? They cast Mr. Henry Brennan, who was the chief champion of the tenants on the estate of the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Wight, into gaol under the Coercion Act; but not so with his comrades. At one time they were told the men were discharged; at another time that they were convicted; and the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland had succeeded so admirably in throwing such a haze over his intentions, that he (Mr. Healy) confessed he was at a loss to understand what he really was going to do. They had an important Member of the Government holding an estate in Ireland; and they found that because that Gentleman was not getting his rents the chief Land Leaguer on the estate was cast into gaol, while the subordinate men had not been similarly treated, although the liability of the whole of them was equal, and although there was no dispute about the facts. The Chief Secretary said the other night that he knew nothing of the case, and that there was so much intimidation in the country he could not get evidence. Why, his own police were on the spot; besides which Mr. Brennan and the other 26 men admitted that they assembled. The only question that remained was whether the

  1801
  assembly was illegal or not, and that ought to be at once decided in the interest of all parties. On Friday morning last he pointed out that such proceedings as that they were now considering was not unusual on the estates of Members of the Government. The county of Water-ford was proclaimed by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary, six months ago, to enable the Duke of Devonshire to get his rents. Mr. Douglas Pyne, who certainly could not be considered a village tyrant, a midnight marauder, was arrested, because on the estate of the father of the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Hartington) he was the chief man who this year aided the "no rent" policy, and who last year refused to pay more than Griffith's valuation. There was no doubt that the Government availed themselves of the Coercion Act in order to enable their Colleagues to get their rents. Let the Chief Secretary get up and deny that he had arrested 27 men on a Common Law charge, that he had released every one except one, and that that one was the chief difficulty on the estate of the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Isle of Wight.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, the hon. Gentleman had stated that the Government had made arrests in order to secure the payments of rents to one of their Colleagues. The only reply he could make was that that assertion was not true.
  MR. HEALYrose to Order. Last year, when he said that a statement made by the right hon. Gentleman was not true, the Chairman ruled him out of Order. The right hon. Gentleman now stated that a remark made by him (Mr. Healy) in the House was not true. He begged to ask if the right hon. Gentleman was in Order in what he had just said?
  MR. SPEAKER: I presume the right hon. Gentleman referred to a statement made by the hon. Gentleman, in which case he was in Order.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that was so. He supposed the hon. Gentleman believed he had been rightly informed; but he had been wrongly imformed; his statement was not true. Mr. Henry Brennan's arrest was in no way connected with the question of the payment of the rents of the hon. Member for the Isle of Wight. As a matter of fact, he
  1802
  believed the rents of the hon. Gentleman had been paid. Mr. Brennan was arrested because they had good reason to believe he was leading men in unlawful assemblies, and also in intimidation and "Boycotting." The hon. Member asked why they did not try the case. He could only refer the hon. Gentleman to the one great reason why the Protection Act was passed, and that was that there was the greatest difficulty in obtaining convictions. [Mr. HEALY: The police were on the spot.] He (Mr. W. E. Forster) was aware of that; but the police were not jurymen. It was thought necessary that these men should be arrested for the sake of the peace of the district; and he was glad to say the course pursued by the Government had been successful, because the district had been far more peaceable since the arrests.
  Mr. LEAMYsaid, they had heard from the Attorney General for Ireland that these 26 men were made joint defendants with Mr. Henry Brennan, and they had just been told by the Chief Secretary they had not yet been brought to trial; but the case had been adjourned from time to time for the purpose of seeing whether the district would become quieter. The Chief Secretary for Ireland also told them that the district had become quiet. If that was so, he would like to know why the summonses were not dismissed? The right hon. Gentleman informed them, moreover, that the Government arrested Mr. Henry Brennan because he was a foremost man in intimidation and in "Boycotting;" but the fact was that the warrant issued for Mr. Brennan's arrest said nothing at all about intimidation and "Boycotting." The offence mentioned in it was "unlawful assembly." The fact was, the right hon. Gentleman had arrested one man out of the 27, he had cast that one man into gaol under the Coercion Act, and he allowed a charge at Common Law to hang over the heads of the other 26. An extraordinary distinction had therefore been drawn between the men, all of whom admitted their share in the offence, if offence they had committed. The right hon. Gentleman or the Crown Officers had not brought these men to trial, because they knew very well they could not prove the assembly was unlawful; and if they could not do that they would not be able to justify the arrest of Mr. Brennan.
  MR. BIGGARsaid, the Chief Secretary had entirely failed to make out his case. In this particular case, the contention of the right hon. Gentleman that there was a difficulty in obtaining evidence entirely broke down, because all the men admitted the assembling, and they were there in the presence of the police, who could give evidence against them if they were so disposed. In point of fact, the police gave evidence against the 26 men, and, he and his hon. Friends believed, they gave evidence against Mr. Henry Brennan. In addition to that, the tribunal before whom the men had been brought was composed of the magistrates of the district; and it certainly seemed to him a very strange thing if the Government could not depend upon the Resident Magistrate and the County Justices to administer justice in the case of any men arraigned before them. If the Chief Secretary for Ireland was right in his statement made to the House, and upon which he founded his case for the Coercion Act, the case of Henry Brennan was entirely outside the range of that Act. His hon. Friend would do well to divide the House against the Vote, in order to mark their sense of the unfairness with which Mr. Henry Brennan had been treated by the Government.
  MR. BARRYsaid, that, upon the authority of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, they learned that the district was now quiet, and that it was to secure this end that Mr. Brennan and his comrades had been proceeded against. They were entitled to know from the right hon. Gentleman if it was the intention of the Government to release Mr. Brennan, and to dismiss the summons against his 26 friends?
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 108; Noes 11: Majority 97.—(Div. List, No. 29.)
  Subsequent Resolutions agreed to.

  POST CARDS (REPLY) BILL.— [BILL 74.]
  (Mr, Fawcett, Lord Frederick Cavendish.)

  THIRD READING.
  Order for Third Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—(Mr. Fawcett.)
  MR. HEALYsaid, that, seeing that Members were so frequently requested
  1804
  to give orders for admission into the Strangers' Gallery, it would be a great convenience if, to save them the trouble of procuring paper and envelopes, the Postmaster General would arrange to supply printed orders in the form of post cards.
  MR. FAWCETTsaid, he would take the hon. Member's suggestion into consideration. It, however, struck him at first sight as being a matter more for the consideration of the stationers.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill read the third time, and passed.

MOTIONS.
  PARLIAMENT—PRIVILEGE—MEATH ELECTION—MICHAEL DAVITT—RECORD OF CONVICTION.

    MOTION FOR A PAPER.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That there be laid before this House, a Copy of the Record of the Conviction and of the Judgment, in the case of the Queen against Michael Davitt and another, tried at the Central Criminal Court on the 11th of July 1870."—(Mr. Attorney General.)
    MR. HEALYsaid, the Government had now had three whole days in which to consider the course they would take in the case of Michael Davitt. They had not followed the precedents set by the House on previous occasions—at any rate, they had not given the House any but a verbal intimation of the course they intended to pursue. They might have placed on the Table of the House something to indicate the form of communication they were about to make to hon. Members. They had not done so, however; and now, at a quarter past 1 in the morning, after having had three days to consider the matter, they saw fit to move for a Return of a technical character, upon which, in this case, a great deal might depend, without having given hon. Members an opportunity of seeing the terms of the Motion. The Government must excuse the Irish Members for objecting to the course they had taken, as this was the case of a man whom the whole Irish people regarded as a benefactor to their country. The Irish Members were determined to use every Form of the House it was necessary to use, in order to safeguard the interests of Michael Davitt. He would respectfully submit to the Government that they should put a Notice of Motion on the

    1805
    Paper to-night, and move for the Return to-morrow. His opposition to the course the Government was now taking was based upon a statement found on page 270 of Sir Erskine May's Parliamentary Practice, in which he was informed that—
    "An Unopposed Motion can be brought on by consent of the Mouse without previous Notice; but if any Member should object it cannot be pressed."
    That being so, he begged respectfully to "object" to the Motion made by the hon. and learned Member. There was no hurry in the matter—there was no need for this unseemly haste, this haste that might even be characterized as indecent, seeing that there were many technicalities to be considered. The Government could not have a shadow of excuse for objecting to putting the terms of the Motion on the Paper. If the technical objection he now urged was not sufficient, he would take any other course to bring about delay that might be open to them as Members of the House to take. He "objected" to the Motion, if that were sufficient, and if not, he would move the adjournment of the debate.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)said, he had no right to make a speech; but, with the indulgence of the House, he would say a few words in reply to the hon. Member in reference to what had occurred in this matter. The Government had pursued, so far as he knew, the course that had always been taken. If there was reason to believe that a person who had been returned to Parliament had been convicted of felony, and was, by Statute, unable to take his seat, the course was forthwith to lay on the Table of the House a copy of the Record of that conviction. It was for the House to deal with the Record when it came to discuss the matter. The hon. Member said the Government had waited three days. The return took place on Friday last, so that they were obliged to lose two days—Saturday and Sunday—but they had availed themselves of the first opportunity they could got to present a copy of the Record of the Conviction of Michael Davitt. The hon. Member had referred to the work of Sir Erskine May—Parliamentary Practice and Precedents—but on the very page the hon. Member had quoted from occurred these words, which the hon. Member had not read—
    1806
    "If a Minister moves for a Return, which no is prepared to present immediately, it is customary to make such Motion without previous Notice."
    [Mr. HEALY: "Customary!"] That was the ordinary custom and precedent. There was no rule against it. Practically no Motion had been made; but a copy of the Record had been placed on the Table of the House for the purpose of being discussed. If it should appear tomorrow that there was any new matter in the case that took the House by surprise, it would be considered. As a Question of Privilege this would be the first Business to-morrow; and if it could be shown that there was any prejudice in bringing it on at such a time, that question would be considered when it arose. He believed, however, that no new matter could arise in placing the Record of the Conviction on the Table of the House, beyond what had arisen in previous cases. The course he now adopted was followed in the case of O'Donovan Rossa, with this exception—that only two days elapsed between the Return and the discussion in the matter of that election. It was known that Michael Davitt was convicted of felony when he was returned, and that this discussion would arise.
    MR. SEXTONsaid, he thought the Government had taken an unusual course, and he failed to understand the logic of the Attorney General in his opposition to the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy). The hon. Member had produced a specific rule, stated in the most emphatic and clearest terms by Sir Erskine May—namely, that when Notice was given of any Return, and any Member opposed the Return, it should not be proceeded with. The language was emphatic; but what did the Attorney General oppose to that? Merely a general statement that it was customary, when a Minister moved for a Return, to allow the Return immediately. He (Mr. Sexton), however, thought it must be apparent to any man that as against an emphatic rule a general custom could not be accepted. The Attorney General stated that in the case of O'Donovan Rossa two days were allowed to elapse between the Motion and the presentation of the Return; but not only in that case, but in the case of John Mitchel, that was done, and these were the only two recent precedents. It ap-

    1807
    peared from the Journals of the House that on the 8th of February, 1870, the Prime Minister moved for a Record of the Conviction of O'Donovan Rossa to be laid on the Table. No opposition was made to the Motion, and no hon. Member availed himself of the Rule provided in Sir Erskine May's work; but the matter was set down for consideration on the following Thursday. Members taking an interest in the matter were allowed two days to consider it. Then, in the other case, on Tuesday, the 16th of February, 1875, on the Motion of the Prime Minister, it was ordered that the Papers relating to the conviction and escape of John Mitchel should be laid on the Table of the House. No opposition was raised, and the Papers were granted; but it was further ordered that the Papers should be considered on the Thursday. In that instance two days were allowed to elapse, and then the Government took a day of their own—the Thursday; but in this case the Government were flying in the face of the precedents. They did not propose to take a Government day, or to give two days' interval; but they proposed to give less than 24 hours, and then to consider the matter on a private Members' day. He thought he had established a conclusive case in support of his hon. Friend's argument.
    MR. HEALYwished Mr. Speaker to give a ruling on the point of Order whether, objection having been taken, the Return could be produced without Notice. He and his Friends did not object to the Return; but they wanted to see the terms on the Paper, and they objected to this undue haste.
    MR. SPEAKER: I have already stated to the House in the early part of the Sitting that there has been no departure from the ordinary custom. The course pursued is quite according to the usual course, and it is in accordance with the precedent in the case of O'Donovan Rossa.
    MR. CALLANsaid, that in the case of John Mitchel his hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel Nolan) apologized for the absence of the hon. Member for Louth, who intended making some remarks upon the Motion. This showed that Notice had been given, and that the Motion was not kept quiet, as in the present case. The election of Michael Davitt was perfectly well known to the Law Officers of the Crown last Thurs-
    1808
    day; and they could have given Notice of a Motion for these Papers, instead of proposing to consider the matter now, at half past 1 in the morning. In the case of John Mitchel 48 hours were given for consideration, and the Rule on the subject was quite clear. If Sir Erskine May's book was worth the paper it was printed on, the House ought to pay respect to it. Sir Erskine May laid it down that an Unopposed Motion could be brought on without Notice; but if any Member should object it could not be pressed. Nothing could be clearer than that; and it would only be showing due deference to the eminent authority on the question if the Attorney General followed the Rule. If not, the laws and practice of Parliament, as laid down by Sir Erskine May, would not be enhanced in public opinion. He also thought the Attorney General should pay some courtesy to the Irish Members, and not persevere with the Motion, unless he would name Thursday for its consideration. Even the Tory Government, about whose crimes and offences so much was heard, gave 48 hours for the consideration of John Mitchel's case; and, surely, when only 15 hours were given, it was not strange that the Irish Members should press what they conceived to be their rights.
    MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYsaid, that the Attorney General had not explained why he wished to press this matter on in such haste. There were only two precedents in the memory of the oldest Member of the House—the cases of O'Donovan Rossa and John Mitchel; and in both those cases ample Notice was given, one or two days being allowed to elapse between the Motion and the Notice; and in each case the Government put down their Motion for a Government day, and not, as in this case, for a private Members' day. If this Motion should come on tomorrow it would occupy the greater part of the Sitting, and he could not imagine why it was pressed with such unbecoming haste. Why should not the customary time be given? What was the reason for departing in this case from the only precedents that existed? He did not understand that Mr. Speaker had given his ruling on this question; and it seemed important that the House should know whether an objection raised to a Notice of this kind was not, according to Sir

    1809
    Erskine May, fatal for the time being. Custom was not law, and he would ask Mr. Speaker to rule whether the objection of the hon. Member was not fatal.
    MR. CHILDERS: Sir, it appears to me that hon. Members have mixed up two questions which are quite distinct. The one is whether the Motion for this Return ought, according to the practice of the House, to be at once put; the other is whether, after the Return has been granted, a certain debate should take place to-morrow, or after longer Notice. These two questions are perfectly distinct. As to the last question, the House will remember that not long ago there was a discussion of a few minutes' duration whether the debate in which we were engaged should be adjourned till to-morrow or Thursday; and it was distinctly urged by several hon. Members on the other side that, inasmuch as this very question about Michael Davitt would come on to-morrow, it was expedient to postpone the debate on the Motion of my hon. and learned Friend until Thursday, and that observation passed with the approval and applause of some of the very Gentlemen who are now taking exception to this Motion. But that is not the question before the House at this moment. The question before us is with respect to this particular Return; and you, Sir, have ruled in the most explicit way that according to the custom of the House, on a Member of the Government moving for a Return which he is prepared to present, that Motion is, by the custom of the House, put at once. There is a distinction in this respect between Motions for Returns and Motions for Addresses to the Crown. It is usual that Motions for Addresses to the Crown shall be always subject to Notice; but I have been in Parliament 22 years, and I will undertake to say that during that time there never has been an instance in which a Minister moving for a Return, which he was there and then prepared to present, has been intercepted by anyone objecting to the Motion being put without previous Notice on the Paper. That is invariably the rule and the custom of the House; and, therefore, those who ask us to do otherwise are proposing to the House a perfectly new practice. The question of what shall be done after this Return has been ordered and presented is another thing. Notice as to that will be given to-morrow, and if it is then
    1810
    thought premature to discuss the matter then will be the time to object. This is not the time to discuss the Return; and, therefore, I trust you, Sir, will rule that, in accordance with the practice, the Motion ought to be put at once.
    MR. GRAYsaid, he did not understand Mr. Speaker to have made any ruling at all, but simply to have said that the custom of the House was being followed in this case. There could be no question that it was customary to grant Returns of this kind on the Motion of a Minister, without the Motion having been put on the Paper; but there were a great many things which were customary in the House, but which could be departed from according to the strict Rules of Procedure. For instance, it was customary to permit a Bill to be read a first time without discussion; but that custom was sometimes departed from. Sessional Orders were customarily put in such a way that no one knew whether they were passed or not; but it was open to a Member to raise a discussion upon every one of them, though probably it would be difficult to quote a precedent for such a course. But here it was laid down authoritatively in the Text Book that if such a Motion as this was opposed it could not be pressed, and the question was whether that Rule was to be departed from. Mr. Speaker had stated what was customary; but he had not gone so far as to rule that, as the Secretary of State for War had suggested, the Rule was to be departed from when any hon. Member thought fit to ask that that should be done.
    MR. SPEAKER: I have already twice stated to the House that the ordinary course has been pursued. The course taken by a Minister of the Crown in presenting this Paper to the House without Notice is quite in Order. I can say no more than that.
    MR. R. POWERwished to correct a statement which his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War had fallen into. The right hon. Gentleman said he had been 22 years in the House, and had never known opposition to be offered to a Motion of this kind. Now, he found that when the case of John Mitchel was brought forward in 1875, Mr. Disraeli moved a Resolution and said—
    "I propose on Thursday next to move—' That John Mitchel, returned as Member for the county of Tipperary, having been ad-

    1811
    judged guilty of felony and sentenced to transportation for 14 years, and not having endured the punishment to which he was adjudged for such felony, or received a pardon under the Great Seal, has become and continues incapable of being elected or returned as a Member of this House; that Mr. Speaker do issue his warrant to the Clerk of the Crown to make out a new writ for the election of a Member to serve in the present Parliament for the county of Tipperary in the room of John Mitchel, adjudged and sentenced as aforesaid.' "—[3 Hansard, ccxxii. 417.]
    He (Mr. E. Power) found, further, that the House did object on that occasion, and that there was a division: Ayes 174, Noes 13. Surely that was offering opposition to a Motion.
    MR. CHILDERS: What I said was that the Motion should be put without Notice—not that it might not be opposed when put.
    MR. LEAMYsaid, the Irish Members did not contend that the course taken by the hon. and learned Attorney General was not in Order; but they objected to that course being taken, and they wished to know if the objection was valid under the half-past 12 o'clock Rule.
    MR. SPEAKER: In order to satisfy the hon. Member I will at once say that, if objection is raised, the objection is not good.
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes 64; Noes 10: Majority 54.—(Div. List, No. 30.)
    Paper presented accordingly.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES): I beg to give Notice that to-morrow I will submit the following Motion to the House:—
    "That Michael Davitt, returned as a Member for the County of Meath, having been adjudged guilty of felony, and sentenced to penal servitude for fifteen years, and being now imprisoned under such sentence, is incapable of being elected or returned as a Member of this House. That Mr. Speaker do issue his Warrant to the Clerk of the Crown in Ireland, to make out a new Writ for the election of a Member to serve in this present Parliament for the County of Meath, in the room of Michael Davitt, adjudged and sentenced as aforesaid."
    I beg to move that the Paper be taken into consideration.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the said Paper be taken into Consideration To-morrow, and be printed."—(Mr. Attorney General.)
    MR. CALLANasked when the hon. and learned Gentleman proposed that
    1812
    the Motion should be taken into consideration?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES): I have already said this day.
    MR. CALLAN: The hon. and learned Member said "to-morrow."
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENEY JAMES): I meant this day, Tuesday.
    MR. HEALYsaid he would move as an Amendment that the Motion be taken into consideration on Thursday next.
    Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "To-morrow," and insert the words "on Thursday,"—(Mr. Healy,)—instead thereof.
    Question proposed, "That the word 'To-morrow' stand part of the Question."
    Mr. CALLANsaid, he thought that the precedent set on the last occasion should be followed now. When the case of John Mitchel was before the House an eminent Constitutional authority, who, he was sorry to say, had no longer a seat in the House—Sir George Bowyer—said in reference to what then occurred, and which was precisely similar to that which had occurred to-night, that it
    "Showed the great inconvenience of proceeding with an important Motion of which no Notice had been given on the Paper. What had happened? The Irish Members were in the Lobby or in the dining-room; at all events, out of the House. They heard that something was being done about the Tipperary election; they came in and they did not know what it was that was proposed. [Ironical cheers.] How could they know if they were absent? He was informed that a writ for Tipperary was being moved for, and the consequence was that he threw away and wasted a sound constitutional speech. This would not have happened if Notice had been given on the Paper of the Motion to be moved on the part of the Government, and he hoped it would not occur again. He was now informed that Notice had been given of the intention to move for a new writ for the county of Tipperary on Thursday next. If so he thought that was irregular and premature, because the return of the election had yet to be made, and the proper authority had to decide whether it was valid or void, and whether the person returned was qualified to sit. A question of law had to be decided, and it was on the official return alone that it could be decided. Therefore it was premature and irregular to give Notice of a Motion for the issue of a writ."—[3 Hansard, ccxxii. 420.]
    He (Mr. Callan) thought this only showed the irregularity and the inconvenience occasioned by giving so short a Notice, and by appointing the matter to come on

    1813
    at so late an hour of the night. He would press on the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General to agree to the proposition which had been made by the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy). They had heard both the Prime Minister and the Chief Secretary for Ireland speak of Mr. Davitt as one who denounced the perpetration of crime and outrage in Ireland. The question of the existence of crime and outrage in Ireland was much more pressing at this moment than the Rules relating to the regulation of Public Business. If, then, it was thought necessary to raise the Irish Question at once, it was desirable that Mr. Michael Davitt should take his seat in the House, so that he might be able to speak with authority on the part of the people of Ireland. The course now being taken by Her Majesty's Government really opened out a very large question, and it bore all the aspect of a harsh proceeding to give a Notice, close upon 2 o'clock in the morning, which, if carried out, would have the effect of invalidating Mr. Davitt's election within 14 hours of the time the Motion was made. The Irish Members did not receive much deference from the Tory Benches, although probably as much as they gave the Members of the Opposition, and as much as the Opposition deserved. But they expected to receive more consideration at the hands of a Liberal Government, and it was a most important matter that the question raised by the hon. and learned Attorney General should be fully discussed. If it was not convenient to receive the precise Amendment which had been moved, there was no absolute necessity for considering the question on Thursday, and it might be put off until Friday. There was no reason why the House should be in any very great hurry. The electors of Meath were not complaining, and the House ought, at least, to pay some deference to the wishes of the constituency of Meath. They were Christians, although they were Irishmen, and they ought to have as much deference paid to them as the electors of Northampton. It would be difficult to induce the electors of Royal Meath to believe that they were not entitled to as much deference as the so-called Liberal electors of Northampton who happened to be upon the Franchise. Any display of indecent haste in rejecting Mr. Davitt, and issuing a new Writ
    1814
    for Meath, would, he was convinced, have a most injurious effect upon the Irish people.
    MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYsaid, he would strongly urge upon the Attorney General the propriety of postponing his Motion, at least, until Thursday. He ought to remember what occurred upon a former occasion, when the election of John Mitchel was brought on for discussion. In that case, two days' Notice was given of the intention to consider the question; and even after the question was considered a Motion was proposed for the adjournment of the Resolution for the issue of a Writ for another week, so that there might be ample time to consider all the bearings of the matter. Among the names of those who voted for postponement were those of the present Prime Minister and most of his leading Colleagues. A proposition to refer the question to a Committee was made by the present Secretary of State for India, who had also the support of the right hon. Gentlemen who were now acting as his Colleagues. If, on that occasion, there was a necessity for inquiry, there was no less necessity for inquiry now; and certainly no reason had been assigned that could warrant Her Majesty's Government in pressing the matter forward with undue haste. Nothing could be lost to any person by two or three days' delay; but much advantage might be gained by allowing time for the consideration of the proper course to take.
    MR. BARRYsaid, he thought that an unanswerable case had been made out in favour of the proposal of his hon. Friend the Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy) to delay the Motion of the Attorney General until Thursday. Considering the absorbing interest taken by the Irish people in the return of Mr. Michael Davitt for the County of Meath, he thought it was unseemly to hasten forward the consideration of the matter. It must also be borne in mind that they were not dealing with the case of an ordinary convict. If they were dealing with the case of an ordinary convict, he could quite understand that it might be desirable to have the question disposed of at the earliest possible moment; but they were dealing with a man who was loved, revered, and honoured by the Irish race all over the world. It would, therefore, produce a very bad impression

    1815
    indeed, in the eyes of the Irish people, if a matter of this kind was unnecessarily hurried on, leaving less than 24 hours for the Irish Members to prepare their case. A great deal might be said in favour of Michael Davitt being allowed to take his seat in that House. The whole question should not be confined within the hard-and-fast lines of Michael Davitt having been convicted of treason-felony. He was no ordinary felon, and his return for the County of Meath opened out many important questions that were worthy of serious consideration. He would, therefore, earnestly appeal to the Attorney General and the Government to postpone the Motion for the further consideration of the matter, at least, until Thursday next.
    MR. O'DONNELLasked if the mere fact of giving Notice did not destroy the Privilege which the Attorney General claimed for the Motion. The Notice which the Attorney General had given that he desired to bring the matter on Tuesday would deprive the Motion itself of the prerogative of Privilege; and the result would be that the Notice must take its place somewhat low down upon the Paper. He raised this objection as a point of Order on which he desired to receive the decision of the Speaker.
    MR. SPEAKER: If the House thinks proper to fix the consideration of the matter to-morrow, it will, no doubt, come on as a Question of Privilege.
    MR. SEXTONasked if it was open for the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General to persevere in the course he had indicated. It must be admitted that the whole of the precedents were on the side of those who pleaded for delay. He regretted that the Prime Minister was not in his place, because he believed that the right hon. Gentleman would be prepared to be guided by what he had himself done in the year 1870. On that occasion the Return was presented on a Tuesday, and Notice was given that it would be taken into consideration on the Thursday following. Mr. Disraeli took precisely the same course in 1875; and he was at a loss to understand why, on this occasion, there should be this great desire for hastening the matter forward. It was not shown that there was any anxiety on the part of the electors of Meath for a new election, or any hope
    1816
    that the Government might mend their position by a new election. He therefore did not understand why they should upset the precedents of the two last occasions, and not wait for 48 hours, or even for a week, if it was considered necessary. What would be the practical effect of assenting to the Motion of the Attorney General? Several Members of the House had to attend the meetings of Select Committees upstairs at half-past 12 o'clock. He, for one, found himself in that position, and it would therefore be impossible to read up the question, and he would be compelled to come down to the House without having devoted even the most casual consideration to the question. He would, however, say no more. It seemed to be almost useless to argue with Her Majesty's Government. At the same time, he desired to make even his weak voice heard in protesting in the strongest manner against the haste with which the Leaders of the Liberal Party were pressing questions of the utmost gravity upon the consideration of the House.
    MR. GRAYsaid, he wished to point out that in 1875 a Motion was made to adjourn the debate with reference to the case of John Mitchel for 48 hours; and in the list of Members who supported that Motion he found the names of Sir William Harcourt, the Marquess of Hartington, Sir Henry James, and other present occupants of the Treasury Bench. He certainly thought they were entitled to an explanation as to why these right hon. Gentlemen had changed their sentiments as to the present case; and he contended that the consideration of the Motion of the Attorney General should be postponed for a day or two, in order to give Irish Members an opportunity of examining the case fully. On the occasion he had referred to, that hon. and learned Gentleman said that the House could only declare a seat vacant on a distinct question of law.
    MR. SPEAKER: I must point out to the hon. Member that the Question is simply as to the day when this Motion should be made.
    MR. GRAYsaid, he was simply quoting the arguments of the hon. and. learned Gentleman in favour of delay on a former occasion, and was endeavouring to show how far they applied to the present case. The Attorney General said that in a case of the House declar-

    1817
    ing a seat vacant, it should proceed on a definite question of law; and, therefore, he pleaded for delay, because he had certain technical doubts as to whether John Mitchel's seat was vacant for the reason which he stated. Now, hon. Members on those Benches might have doubts of the same technical character in the present case, and they asked for an opportunity for examination, in order to ascertain whether those doubts had a good foundation. He thought they were entitled to this, especially as the Attorney General had not stated under what law Mr. Davitt was disqualified from sitting, but had simply put forward that he was a convicted felon. The Motion, therefore, on the face of it, had afforded hon. Members no opportunity of looking into precedents. He thought the hon. and learned Gentleman ought to be sufficiently consistent on the present occasion to assist Irish Members in the same procedure as he urged the Government to adopt in 1875.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES)said, it was contended, on the occasion when they took the course of moving the adjournment in the case of John Mitchel, that when the Motion was made no Papers had been laid on the Table of the House. He should be willing to agree to an adjournment if hon. Members opposite could show any reasons in favour of that course. The two cases were very different, because John Mitchel, at the time, had escaped from custody, and was beyond the Realm, and the question was whether he had not passed the period of his sentence of penal servitude. Hon. Members would see that the Statute declared that a felon could not sit in that House. On the whole, he did not think hon. Members could give a tithe of the good reasons for adjournment which were advanced in the case of John Mitchel; and he trusted the House would not assent to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy).
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes 61; Noes 10: Majority 51.—(Div. List, No. 31.)
    Main Question put, and agreed to.
    Ordered, That the said Paper be taken into Consideration To-morrow, and be printed. [No. 66.]

    LICENSING LAWS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
    Considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    Resolved, That the Chairman be directed to move the House, that leave be given to bring in a Bill to alter and amend the Licensing Laws in Scotland.
    Resolution reported:—Bill ordered to be brought in by Lord COLIN CAMPBELL, Dr. CAMERON, Mr. ANDERSON, Mr. CRUM, Mr. BOLTON, Mr. MACKINTOSH, Mr. J. HAMILTON, Mr. STEWART, and Mr. WILLIAMSON.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 86.]

    BANKRUPTCY LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. BARRAN, Bill to amend the Law of Bankruptcy, ordered to be brought in by Mr. BARRAN, Mr. NORWOOD, Mr. EDWARD CLARKE, and Mr. MONK.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 87.]

    DUBLIN CITY (HIGHWAYS) BILL.
    On Motion of Dr. LYONS, Bill to extend the powers of the Corporation of Dublin with respect to the Highways of the City of Dublin, ordered to be brought in by Dr. LYONS and Mr. MATRICE BROOKS.
    Bill presented,and read the first time. [Bill 88.]

    INFECTIOUS DISEASES NOTIFICATION (IRELAND) BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. GRAY, Bill to provide for the Notification of Infectious Diseases in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Mr. GRAY, Mr. DAWSON, and Mr. O'SHAUGHNESSY.
    Bill Presented, and read the first time. [Bill 189.]

    ALLOTMENTS BILL.
    On Motion of Mr. JESSE COLLINGS, Bill for the extension of Allotments, ordered to be brought in by Mr. JESSE COLLINGS, Mr. BURT, Mr. BRAXD, and Mr. BRYCE.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 90.]

    POOR REMOVAL (IRELAND) BILL.
    On Motion of Sir HARVEY BRUCE, Bill to regulate the Removal of Poor Persons to Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Sir HERVEY BRVCE, Mr. CORRY, and Mr. LEWIS.
    Bill presented, and road the first time. [Bill 91.]

ORDER OF THE DAY.

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  (1.) Resolved, That, towards making good the Supply granted to Her Majesty for the service of the year ending on the 31st day of March 1882, the sum of £313.270 be granted out of the Consolidated Fund of the United Kingdom.
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow;
  Committee to sit again upon Wednesday.
  House adjourned at a quarter after Two o'clock.

JUDICIAL BUSINESS—STANDING ORDER, No. VII.

  AMENDMENT.
  Standing Order, No. VII., applicable to Appeals, considered.
  Moved, "That the said Order be amended by omitting the words ('severally dating from the presentation of the Appeal')."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
  Motion agreed to.
  Standing Order amended; and to be printed as amended. (No. 22.)

CLAIMS TO VOTE FOR REPRESENTATIVE PEERS FOR IRELAND—STANDING ORDER, No. LXXX.

  POSTPONEMENT OF MOTION.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES), who had the following Notice on the Paper:—To move—
  "That Standing Order, No. LXXX., be amended by inserting, after the words (' admitted by the House of Lords') the following words: viz., ('or by virtue of any Peerage in which the limitations in the Irish Patent, the Petitioner being a Peer of England, Great Britain, or the United Kingdom, shall be the same as the limitations in the Patent in right of which the Petitioner sits in the House of Lords as a Peer of England, Great Britain, or the United Kingdom'),"
  said, that the Amendment of the Standing Order to the effect indicated was agreed to last year by the Lord Chancellor, but not really made by the House. He would move the Amendment on an early day.
  House adjourned at a quarter past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.