Sitting of 24 February 1881

MINUTES.
PRIVATE BILLS (by Order)—Second Reading—Potteries, Shrewsbury, and North Wales Railway *;Southwark and Deptford Tramways *.
PUBLIC BILL—Considered as amended—Third Reading—Protection of Person and Property (Ireland) [90], debate adjourned.

QUESTIONS.

  AFGHANISTAN—ALLOWANCES AND PENSIONS.
  MR. PUGHasked the Secretary of State for India, Whether he can inform the House what are the amounts paid or payable out of the revenues of India to Yahoob Khan (Ex-Ameer of Afghanistan), Shere Ali (Ex-Wali of Kandahar), and to other natives of Afghanistan not in Her Majesty's Military Service, by way of pensions, allowances, or gratuities,
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  in respect of services rendered or claims acquired in connection with the War in Afghanistan?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Yahoob Khan has no fixed allowance. The ex-Wali of Kandahar receives an allowance of 5,000 rupees a month for himself and family. From Returns which have been received from India, it appears that certain temporary provisional allowances are given to 10 distinguished Afghan refugees, who loft Cabul with the British Army in August, 1880. The total amount of the grant is about 3,500 rupees a month. There are nine other Afghan dignitaries in India who receive an aggregate allowance of about 2,600 rupees a month.

  RAILWAY COMPANIES—REPORTS AND RETURNS.
  GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURasked the President of the Board of Trade, Whether the Government contemplate taking powers to cause the Railway Companies to supply statistical data of their operations, so as to make known to the public the actual cost of carriage of the various classes of merchandise, of minerals, and several classes of passengers—as is done on the Indian lines and on the Railways of New South Wales; and also show the actual or average rates for the various classes of merchandise, of minerals, and faros for passengers — distinguishing those for local from through or competitive traffic; whether it is in contemplation to alter and amend the Schedule to "The Regulation of Railways Act, 1868," so that the accounts of the Railway Companies may be presented to proprietors in a lucid and intelligible form, for the purposes of direct and comparative analysis; more especially that Form No. 4 (Capital Account) may contain fuller details and show more explicitly the expenditure under the several heads—Railway, Canal, Steamboat, &c.; that Form No. 9 (Revenue and Expenditure) may show specifically and in detail the whole earnings, from the several sources, including the earnings from lines owned, leased, and worked, and also the whole expenditure specifically and in detail, under the several heads, including the expenditure on lines, owned, leased, and worked; that Form No. 10 (Net Revenue Account) may specify all first charges,

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  including the per-centage or amount of earnings of worked lines paid the owning Companies; and, whether the Railway Companies will be asked to furnish monthly to the Board of Trade a classified Return of the tonnage of merchandise and of minerals carried, for public information as to the internal commerce of the Country, and as a counterpart to the monthly Trade and Navigation Returns now published?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: My hon. and gallant Friend has put a series of Questions connected with the statistics of Railway Companies, which, if I should answer in detail, I should have to trespass too long on the time of the House. I hope, therefore, my hon. Friend will be satisfied with a general reply. As regards the first group of Questions, I have to say that the Government have already consented to the appointment of a Committee, on the Motion of my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. B. Samuelson), to inquire into these matters, and that I cannot say that the Government are prepared to take any steps with regard to them till that Committee has reported. As regards the second group, I have to say that I believe that these reports give, as far as I am aware, all the information which is required for the public interest. If further information is required by the shareholders, they have the remedy in their own hands. As regards the last Question, I have to say that the Board of Trade have no power to ask for such a Return; and as far as I am advised at present, I do not see that any sufficient public advantage would result to justify the very large expense to which the Companies would be put.

  CENTRAL ASIA—CORRESPONDENCE BETWEEN RUSSIA AND THE AMEER OF CABUL-UNAUTHORIZED PUBLICATION.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL (for Mr. BUXTON)asked the Secretary of State for India, Whether he has yet been able to discover the person who published in the "Standard" newspaper "the official Memoranda of an extremely confidential character," relating to Russian correspondence discovered at Cabul, or whether that person has, in accordance with the suggestion of the Secretary of State, yet come forward and
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  stated the part he has taken in the transaction, in order to relieve a considerable number of persons from any suspicion upon their official discretion? The hon. Gentleman also asked whether the Cabul Correspondence was published in Calcutta long before it came to the country; and whether it was published there officially, or had also been obtained surreptitiously?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: In reply to the Question on the Paper, I have only to say that I am sorry to state that I have no more knowledge of the person who furnished the correspondence to The Standard than I have of the person mentioned in the Notice just given by my noble Friend the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton) who corresponds with The Daily News. I have not thought it necessary to institute any inquiry, and the person, whosoever he may be, who communicated these confidential documents to The Standard has not availed himself of my invitation to come forward and relieve other persons from what I still think a very unmerited stigma. In reply to the last part of the Question of my hon. Friend, I think I can explain the publication of these Papers in India. I received a telegram from the Viceroy to the effect that it was announced in India that the Cabul Correspondence was about to be published in England, and ho asked whether there would be any objection to its being published in India also. I telegraphed back that it was quite true the Papers were about to be published, and that there would be no objection to the simultaneous publication in India.

  LAW AND JUSTICE—SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE ACTS—EXTENSION OF ORDER XIV. RULE 1, TO ACTIONS FOR RECOVERY OF LAND.
  MR. B. T. WILLIAMSasked the Attorney General, Whether his attention has been called to the suggestion made by the Incorporated Law Society to the Legal Procedure Committee now sitting, which in effect recommends that the summary procedure by Order XIV. Rule 1, should be extended to actions for the recovery of land; and, whether the Judges have the power, under the Judicature Acts, to pass rules which would enable the landlords of England

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  and Wales to evict their tenants, and to cause a forfeiture of their leases, by a summary process upon affidavits at Judges' Chambers, and without the verdict of a jury?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES),in reply, said, he thought his hon. and learned Friend misunderstood the effect of the Order. Even if that Order could be extended to actions for the recovery of land, there could be no summary eviction in any case where the tenant could show any defence. He did not know what course might be taken by the Judges with regard to the passing of such Rules as those to which the Question referred; but if Rules were passed they would have to be laid on the Table of the House.

  TURKEY IN ASIA—THE RECENT DISTURBANCE AT BEIRUT.
  MR. WILLSasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If he is in possession of any information as to the causes of the recent disturbances at Beirut which he can communicate to the House?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: No Reports have has yet been received from Her Majesty's Consul General on the subject of disturbances at Beirut; but there will be no objection to communicate to the House any information that may be received.

  SUPREME COURT OF JUDICATURE ACT, 1873—SECTION SO—SITTINGS IN LONDON AND MIDDLESEX.
  MR. H. H. FOWLERasked Mr. Attorney General, Whether, upon the Order in Council for consolidating the Common Law Divisions of the High Court of Justice coming into operation, arrangements will be made for complying with the 30th section of "The Judicature Act, 1873," which requires continuous sittings for the trial of causes in London and Middlesex; and, if be could state how many judges will sit for the trial of causes in London and Middlesex after the expiration of the Winter Assize and before the commencement of the Easter Vacation?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir HENRY JAMES),in reply, said, that since receiving Notice of the Question he had communicated with the Lord Chancellor
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  and also with Lord Coleridge on the subject, and that he had their authority for saying that they fully appreciated the necessity, in the interest of the public, of having continuous sittings for Middlesex and London, and every effort would be made to promote that object. He was not certain as to the exact number of Judges who would sit; but he believed that six would be sitting for some time.

  TUNIS—RUMOURED FRENCH PROTECTORATE—THE ENFIDA CASE.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether any information has been received by Her Majesty's Government confirming are port that M. Rousten, the French Diplomatic Agent at Tunis, has proposed or suggested to the Bey the establishment of a French Protectorate over that Regency; and, if so, whether any communications have passed on the subject between Her Majesty's Government and that of France? The hon. Baronet also asked, Whether the Foreign Office is in possession of affidavits by the parties assaulted at Enfida, corroborated by others, to the effect that they were assaulted and ejected by the officers of the French Consulate General; whether these affidavits, and any reports from Her Majesty's Consul General at Tunis on the subject, can be laid upon the Table; whether, if such documents confirm the version that the assault was committed by the French Consular officers, Her Majesty's Government will make a representation on the subject to the Government of France; and, whether the affidavits and the report of the Consul General can be laid upon the Table?
  MR. MONTAGUE GUESTasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he was aware that a telegram had been received in London, from the Correspondent of The Standard at Tunis, who stated that the Bey had asked him to make it known that he did not desire the protection of one State more than another, but wished to maintain friendly relations with all?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: With regard to the Question that has just been put to me by my hon. Friend, of course the proper mode of communicating with Her Majesty's Government

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  is to communicate directly. The Bey has certainly not clone so at present; and I can give no further information upon the subject of the telegram which appears in The Standard of this morning. In reply to the first of the other Questions, considering the diplomatic experience of my hon. Friend, I think that he will hardly expect that I should answer his Questions, which refer to matters which are still pending, in much detail. We have heard of a conversation between the Bey of Tunis and M. Rousten; but there is no Correspondence with regard to it which can be laid before the House. In reply to the second Question of my hon. Friend, Her Majesty's Government are in possession of the documents referred to. I have already stated that the French Government have denied that the officials of the Gonsulate took part in any assault. The Correspondence upon the subject will be laid before the House; but cannot, of course, be placed in its possession at the present stage of the question.

  SOUTH AFRICA—THE TRANSVAAL (MILITARY OPERATIONS)—REINFORCEMENTS.
  MAJOR O'BEIRNEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether the following statement, under the heading of "Military Intelligence," in the "Times" of the 21st, is correct:—
  "The under-mentioned drafts embarked on Saturday in steamship 'Lapland' for conveyance to Natal: a draft of eighty non-commissioned officers and men of the 2nd Battalion 2lst Fusiliers from the depot at Ayr. The draft for the 21st was composed chiefly of stripling 'sunder twenty years of age; some of these are said to he only six weeks in the Army;"
  and, if this statement is correct, how many men out of the draft of eighty had been only six weeks in the Army, and how many under twenty years of age?
  COLONEL ALEXANDERasked the. Secretary of State for War, Whether his attention has been called to the following description in the "Times" of the 21st instant, of the Draft of the 21st Royal Scots Fusiliers, which has just embarked for the Transvaal:—
  "The Draft for the 21st was composed principally of stripling's, apparently under twenty years of age, and some of these were said to have been only six weeks in the Army. Even the Non-Commissioned Officers were youthful. The Depot at Ayr is exhausted by this Draft, and the Regiment is open for two hundred volunteers:"
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  and, whether, assuming the above description to be correct, he would not rather send to the Second Battalion in South Africa seasoned soldiers from the First Battalion in India instead of immature lads from the Depot at Ayr?
  MR. CHILDERS: In reply to my hon. and gallant Friend, and also to the hon. and gallant Member for Ayrshire, who asks me a Question on the same subject, I have to state that of the 80 men who embarked on Saturday last to join the 2nd Battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers in Natal only 23 were under 20 years of age, the average age of the draft being over 22 years. No men had served only six weeks in the Army. Perhaps I may be allowed to read the Report of Colonel Blundell, the Assistant Adjutant General, on this draft—
  "With reference to the conversation I had with you yesterday, I have the honour to repeat that the drafts which embarked on board the Lapland did so in excellent order. I was especially struck with the steadiness and regularity of all the drafts, that of the 2nd Battalion 21st among the rest, about which I had the honour to remark that I was satisfied it would be a credit to any corps, and would do well. I did not notice anything special to remark about the physique or age of this draft."
  I see no occasion for sending a draft to the 2nd Battalion from the 1st Battalion in India.

  RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND)—STATE OF THE COUNTY OF MAYO.
  MR. A. MOOREasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If his attention has been drawn to the resolutions of the deanery of Castlebar with respect to distress prevailing in that district; and what steps have been taken by the Local Government Board in the matter?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER,in reply, said, that the priests who assembled at the Deanery sent copies of resolutions passed by them to the Local Government Board. They referred to the distress existing, and were carefully considered by the Board; but he had to inform the hon. Gentleman and the House that the distress was not now so severe as it was two weeks ago. He was informed by the Inspector of the Board that many of the able-bodied men in the Union were proceeding to England. The Guardians of Castlebar Union had an Order in force

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  authorizing them to grant relief under the 3rd section of the Relief Act; hut they had not thought it necessary to give relief under that Order up to the present.

  THE EMPLOYERS' LIABILITY ACT, 1880.
  LORD RENDLESHAMasked the President of the Local Government Board, Whether male attendants in lunatic asylums would come under the regulations of "The Employers' Liability Act, 1880," as being engaged in dangerous occupations?
  MR. DODSON,in reply, said, that neither male attendants in lunatic asylums, nor any other persons, would come under the regulations of the Act as being engaged in dangerous occupations, inasmuch as there was no such condition laid down in the Act. Whether those persons came within the definition of the persons to whom the Act applied was a matter of legal construction, which might have to be judicially decided hereafter. As at present advised, he believed they would not come within the terms of the Act.

  NAVY — FISHERIES ON THE EAST COAST—EMPLOYMENT OF A GUNBOAT.
  COLONEL BARNEasked the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether he is aware that upwards of 200 boats and 1,800 men will be fishing off Lowestoft and Yarmouth in the beginning of March; that each boat with its nets represents a capital of about £1,500, in which each of these men have shares; that unless protected by armed vessels, the nets of these men will probably suffer great damage by the use of the seythe-bladed grapnel by foreign fishermen; and, whether he will reconsider his determination of sending no Government vessel until July, and will send one or more in the beginning of March?
  MR. TREVELYAN: His Royal Highness the Admiral Superintendent of Naval Reserves has telegraphed to the stations on the East Coast and ascertained that boats to the number of 200 will be fishing off Lowestoft and Yarmouth early next month. The Rose has accordingly received orders to be on the ground as soon as the fishing commences, with a crew from the Coastguard. The
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  Admiralty are always glad of an opportunity of giving their seamen a cruise in a sailing vessel.

  SOUTH AFRICA—THE BASUTO WAR—DESTRUCTION OF PRIVATE PROPERTY BY COLONIAL FORCES.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, With reference to official reports showing that the Colonial authorities, and the officers of Her Majesty's Army commanding their troops, carry on the Basuto War by the systematic plunder and destruction of private property, and especially to the last telegram from the British Governor, in which it is stated that Colonel Carington is encamped at Bolcka "destroying large quantities of crops around," even at the time when an armistice was agreed on, and was about to commence, Her Majesty's Government will express approval of that course, and whether they will permit British officers to take part in it?
  MR. GRANT LUFF: Her Majesty's Government cannot be responsible for the details of military operations conducted by officers acting under the Colonial Government, and responsible to it. Any unnecessary destruction of property would be, of course, quite unjustifiable and a matter for deep regret.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to answer my Question, Whether Her Majesty's Government will or will not permit British officers to take part in those operations?
  MR. GRANT DUFF: I endeavoured to convey to the mind of my hon. Friend that Her Majesty's Government was in no way whatever responsible for these proceedings, and that it expresses neither approval nor disapproval of them.

  IRELAND—GRANTS FROM THE CONSOLIDATED FUND AND VOTES OF PARLIAMENT—THE RETURNS.
  MR. LOWTHERasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, When a Return (ordered on the 12th of February 1880) will be given to the House of all moneys charged on the Consolidated Fund or voted by Parliament, or advanced out of the Consolidated or Public Revenues since the Union, to or for the benefit of Ireland, distinguishing what sums have been

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  given and what sums lent, and how much of the money lent has been repaid and how much forgiven, and what remains due?
  LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: As the Return alluded to comprises not only all moneys charged on or advanced from the Consolidated Fund, but also all grants of Parliament for the benefit of Ireland, the hon. Member will understand the great difficulty of completing it so as to present results of any real value. Much time and labour have already been expended upon it; and I can only say that the Treasury are using their best endeavours to collect the necessary statistics.

  AFRICA (WEST COAST)—THREATENED WAR WITH ASHANTEE.
  MR. STORY-MASKELYNEasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether Her Majesty's Government has taken adequate stops for the protection from Ashanti attack of the important mining establishments in the neighbourhood of the Anacobra River, in which a large amount of English and French capital is embarked?
  MR. GRANT DUFF: These mines are, as my hon. Friend is aware, far inland, and the Company to which they belong was warned in the most distinct manner by the late Secretary of State that Her Majesty's Government could assume no responsibility for the protection of its interests or of the persons employed in its service. The small force which we have on the Gold Coast may, if war breaks out, be fully employed elsewhere. With regard to the probability of war breaking out, I may take this opportunity of replying to a Question of which private Notice has been given me by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach). The latest news which I have seen from the Gold Coast came not to us, but to the Admiralty, and is dated the 10th of February. Matters wore then precisely in statu quo, so that the probability of war breaking out had not increased.

  H. M. S. "CHALLENGER"—PUBLICATION OF THE REPORT.
  MR. COBBOLDasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether the Government will consider the expediency of providing copies of the Official Report of
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  the Surveying Voyage of H. M. S. "Challenger," as mentioned in the Report of the Controller of the Stationary Office, to such museums, libraries, and institutions as are supported by borough and other rates, and thus allow many who would otherwise be precluded to share in the advantages of the "advancement of science" obtained by the expenditure of public money?
  LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: The question of the gratuitous distribution of the Report of the Challenger expedition was most carefully considered by the Treasury when the arrangements for the printing and publication of that Report were made in the year 1878. The Report will comprise not less than 15 volumes; and the cost of the whole work, including paper, printing, engraving, and agency for sale, but not authorship or editing, will not be less than £30 per copy. Applications for copies of the Report, free of charge, are incessantly being made from every variety of Institution throughout the United Kingdom; and if the determination to restrict the gift of the Report to Institutions of a national character were to be abandoned, the difficulty of drawing a line between those Institutions which should be presented with the Report and those which should not would be almost insuperable, and the expenditure involved would be very large.

  FIRES (METROPOLIS).
  MR. M'LAGANasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he intends to take any steps soon to have an inquiry into the origin and causes of fires immediately after their occurrence?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I am not quite sure that I understand the purport of my hon. Friend's Question. As I understand, when an ordinary fire takes place the officers of the Fire Brigade report upon the circumstances, and the insurance companies have a clear interest in investigating the matter, and, if necessary, they have the assistance of the police. But if my hon. Friend refers to the Bills which, I think, he has promoted on former occasions, that there should be in the case of all fires a judicial investigation at the public charge placed upon the rates, that is not a scheme which, at the present moment,

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  Her Majesty's Government are willing to propose.

  STATE OF IRELAND—ALLEGED OUTRAGE AT BEGGAR'S BUSH BARRACKS.
  THE O'DONOGHUE (for Mr. GRAY)asked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether the Lieutenant Stephens, who reported the recent alleged attempt to blow up Beggars Bush Barracks, Dublin, with dynamite, purchased some dynamite detonating caps and fuse at Galway a few clays previously; whether this Mr. Stephens is in Her Majesty's Service; and, whether the reported outrage was a reality or not?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: I am informed by the Dublin Metropolitan Police that Lieutenant Stephens is not now in Her Majesty's Service. He formerly hold a commission in the Royal Dublin City Militia, but he resigned it last year. I have no information as to whether he bought dynamite, detonating caps, and fuses previous to coming to Dublin from Galway. The Dublin Metropolitan Police, however, inform mo that they are of opinion that the attempt to blow up Beggar's Bush Barracks existed only in Mr. Stephens' imagination.

  OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE EXAMINATIONS.
  MR. THOROLD ROGERSasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to the fact that the two Universities of Oxford and Cambridge have undertaken for some time past the duty of examining and reporting on endowed public schools, on the application of such schools, and that the action of the Universities has had the most salutary effect on such schools as have come under examination and inspection; and, whether he has considered the expediency of providing that, in any future legislation as regards endowed schools, a clause should be inserted constraining the authorities of such schools to submit to the examinations which are conducted by the Universities, at once in the interests of the schools, the children educated at them, and the parents of such children, and that, as far as possible, these voluntary examinations should be made compulsory?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: So far as the first part of my hon. Friend's
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  Question goes, I entirely agree with him that the action of the Universities has had a most salutary effect upon such schools as have come under examination and inspection; and I believe that the schools and the managers are of that opinion, and that they are every year more and more using the machinery which the Universities have placed at their disposal. But as to the second part of my hon. Friend's Question, whether Her Majesty's Government are prepared to make that example compulsory in all endowed schools, without consideration of the character of those schools —whether they are of a humbler or a higher character—all I can say is that at present Her Majesty's Government have not come to that conclusion.

  STATE OF IRELAND—EVICTIONS (CO. ARMAGH).
  MR. W. J. CORBETasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If the statement in the "St. James's Gazette" and other papers on Saturday the 19th February is true—namely, that
  "Several evictions took place yesterday on the estate of Mr. MeGeough, J.P. near New-townhamilton, county Armagh. The sheriff was attended by his bailiffs, and the decrees were enforced under the protection of fifty policemen. Many painful scenes were witnessed; children and aged persons, some of the latter being in very delicate health, were cast out on the road side. The peasantry gathered in large numbers; some of the women threw stones at the bailiffs, and invoked curses on the landlord; but the police behaved with forbearance and kindness, supplying with money the most destitute of those who were evicted;"
  and, if the statement is true, whether he can give the House any information as to what has been done to relieve the poor people who have been thus left destitute by process of Law?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER,in reply, said, that ho would give the House all the information ho had received with regard to these evictions. It seemed that four distinct families were evicted from two houses, and a force of 50 constabulary were present on the occasion. They were evicted for non-payment of rent due for two years and two-and-a-half years. Two or three hundred people assembled at the eviction, having been called together by horns blown on the neighbouring hills, and there was very considerable excitement. The police

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  were not in any way interfered with; but the landlord and the agent were freely abused — [Mr. HEALY: Hear, hoar!]—and although arrangements had been made by the relieving officers of the district for the reception of the evicted families in the workhouse, they were provided with lodgings at once by their friends.

  ITALIAN CURRENCY.
  MR. W. FOWLERasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether, having regard to the proposed resumption of specie payments by Italy, and the bearing of that proposal on the important question of the use of silver as money, he would be willing to lay upon the Table any despatches received by our Government in relation thereto, together with the pamphlet of the Italian Ministers S.S. Magliani and Miceli, and any other papers illustrative of the same subject'?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Reports with regard to the proposed resumption of specie payments in Italy have been received from Her Majesty's Ambassador at Rome, and will be laid on the Table of the House. The pamphlet to which my hon. Friend refers has not been received; but inquiry will be made respecting it.

  THE RAILWAY COMMISSIONERS—LEGISLATION.
  MR. R. BIDDULPH MARTINasked the President of the Board of Trade, If his attention has been directed to the valuable testimony given by the Chairman of the London and North Western Railway Company at the recent half-yearly meeting of that Company, to the efficiency of the Railway Commissioners in looking after the interests of the public; and, whether it is his intention to promote or support legislation with the view of conferring larger powers on the Commissioners especially in the direction of the promotion of the comfort and convenience of the public travelling by Railway?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: I have referred to the report in The Times of a speech which was made at the recent half-yearly meeting of the London and North-Western Railway Company, by the Chairman of that Company, and I find there that Mr. Moon said—
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  "They had the Railway Commissioners, a standing monument of the repudiation of national engagements by the Parliament of this country. It was an irregular court without any principle, with powers over their rates which the highest authorities said was equivalent to confiscation, and they were a standing menace to this great property."
  I do not know whether that is the language to which my hon. Friend refers, and which he speaks of as valuable testimony to the efficiency of the Railway Commissioners in looking after the interests of the public. With respect to the second Question, I have to say that the powers of the Railway Commissioners expire on the 31st December, 1882, and at the end of that time it will be necessary to resort to fresh legislation on the subject. In the meantime, the matter has my very serious consideration.

  PUBLIC HEALTH—MORTALITY AT ASHTON-UNDER-LYNE.
  MR. HUGH MASONasked the Secretary to the Local Government Board, Whether the Board's attention has been drawn to the statement in the Registrar General's Quarterly Returns respecting the very high mortality recently in Ash-ton under Lyne; and, whether he will direct a medical inquiry by the Local Government Board into the causes of such high mortality?
  MR. HIBBERT: The attention of the Local Government Board has been drawn to the high mortality in the borough of Ashton-under-Lyne, and in November last the Board wrote to the Town Council of that borough referring to the fatal prevalence of diarrhoea, and asking what the Medical Officer of Health had been able to discover about the cause of it; but no reply has yet been received to that letter. The Local Government Board propose to direct an inquiry by one of their Medical Inspectors into the cause of the high death-rate of the borough.

  LAW AND JUSTICE—THE MAGISTRACY—POLICE CASE AT GREENOCK.
  MR. MACDONALDasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been called to a case tried before the Police or Burgh Magistrates' Court, Greenock, on the 21st instant, in which a woman was convicted of being drunk and disorderly on the

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  night of the 19th, and was ordered to pay a fine or go to prison for five days; whether it be true that two policemen swore to her being the guilty person; also, that the Law officers produced copies of two previous convictions against her; whether it was afterwards found that the wrong person had been tried and convicted, and had to be discharged, and the really guilty party tried; whether, for the better protection of the public against such acts, he will order the policemen and the Law officers to be put on their trial for perjury by the Public Prosecutor; and, if it be in conformity with Law, he will order the suspension of the magistrate from the exercise of magisterial duties, and the assessor from being the adviser of the court?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I must point out to the hon. Member and to the House that this is a Question I cannot, by any possibility, be expected to answer. What the hon. Member asks me is with reference to a transaction which took place at Greenock on the 21st instant, and of which Notice was only given by the hon. Member last night. The hon. Member asks whether I am prepared to
  "Order the policemen and the Law officers to be put on their trial for perjury by the Public Prosecutor, and whether I will order the suspension of the magistrate from the exercise of magisterial duties, and the assessor from being the adviser of the court?"
  I neither have, nor could by any possibility have, seen an account of the transaction as to which I am asked to take such extreme measures. I would point out to hon. Members and to the House that, when Questions of this kind are asked, several days' Notice should be given to a Minister, in order that he may make inquiry into the matter. A letter will be written to-day from the Home Office to Greenock in reference to this case; in the course of a day or two an answer will be received; and in a reasonable time consideration will be given as to what is to be done in reference to it. It is unreasonable for the hon. Member to place the Notice on the Paper one day and to ask the Question on the next.

  CRIMINAL LAW—ALLEGED RICK-BURNING AT CHARD.
  MR. A. M. SULLIVANasked the Secretary of State for the Home Depart-
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  ment, If there is any foundation for the following telegram in the London papers of the 22nd instant:—
  "Another case of incendiarism—making the third within the past few months—was reported at Chard this morning. [Several corn stacks belonging to a farmer named Chapman, were, last evening, fired and entirely destroyed. Notwithstanding a reward of £25 offered by the police authorities, no clue has been obtained as to the guilty parties. Later in the night a stall containing five cows, the property of a farmer who suffered in a recent incendiary fire, was set on fire, and the ricks near were saturated with oil;"
  and, whether any one has been brought to justice or arrested for these crimes of incendiarism on reasonable suspicion or otherwise?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I am afraid I must make the same objection to this Question as to the last. This circumstance is said to have been reported by telegraph in the London papers of the 22nd instant—the day before yesterday. It is a case of which I have no knowledge whatever, and of which I never heard until the Question appeared in print this morning. Surely, the hon. and learned Member cannot now expect me to give him any information respecting it.

  CUSTOMS REVENUE—THE TOBACCO DUTIES.
  MR. WILLSasked the hon. Member for Portsmouth, Whether he had any objection to postpone the Motion, which stood in the Order Book in his name, to move to-morrow for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the duties affecting tobacco? He hoped the hon. Member would do so, partly because of the regretted absence from the House of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and partly because a large meeting of persons interested in the trade was to be held next month.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFsaid, that, in the absence of the Prime Minister, which they must all regret, and for the other reason stated by the hon. Gentleman, ho would endeavour to get a later day for his Motion.

  SOUTH AFRICA—THE BASUTO WAR (NEGOTIATIONS).
  MR. CROPPERsaid, he desired to put a Question to the right hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for the

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  Colonies, of which he had given him private Notice— namely, Whether he could inform the House of the present sate of the negotiations between the authorities of the Cape Colony and the Basutos; and, whether there was a prospect of the renewal of the armistice which would terminate to-morrow?
  MR. GRANT DUFF: An answer was received from Lerothodi and others, which was not satisfactory to the Cape Ministry. It sent, in reply, certain terms, requiring agreement to them within 24 hours. We do not yet know the result.

  CRIME (IRELAND) — MEETING AT DONNECLONET — SPEECH OF REV. MR. KANE.
  MR. A. M. SULLIVANasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether, since his letter of October last, promising to deal with the case of the Rev. Mr. Kane, rector of Drumlish, who at a public meeting exhorted the people to break the law, he has taken any and what steps to fulfil that promise? In order to identify the individual represented in the Question, I bog to explain that I allude to the Rev. Mr. Kane, whose language in exhorting the people to organize assassination clubs to murder innocent persons in cold blood was brought under the notice of Parliament last year.
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: I have sent to Dublin for papers on the subject, and until I get them I shall be unable to answer the Question.

  THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND)—REFUSAL OF BAIL.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether his attention has been called to statements in the Irish Press to the effect that a large number of magistrates in Ireland are in the habit of refusing bail in bailable cases; and if not, whether ho will inquire into the accuracy of that statement, and take means to prevent the practice should the statement prove to be well founded?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: I will answer the Question if the hon. Member will specify particular cases in the paper; but I cannot be expected to answer a vague and general statement sent to
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  newspapers, and applying to magistrates all over Ireland.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNOR: I will repeat the Question in a more specific form on Monday,

  PARLIAMENT—BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

    MINISTERIAL STATEMENT.
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: The House is aware that my right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Treasury promised on Tuesday last to make a statement to-day with reference to the progress of Public Business. My right hon. Friend is unable to be in his place to-day, owing to the effects of an accident, which, although it will probably confine him to his room for two or three days, is, I am happy to say, not of a serious character. I hope, and believe, that my right hon. Friend will be able to be in his place on Monday, and that he will then make the promised statement to the House. In these circumstances, I hope the House will not ask us, in the absence of my right hon. Friend—and I have not been able even to see him to-day—to make an incomplete statement, as ho will himself be able, I trust, to make it in a complete form on Monday. I think, however, it will be for the convenience of the House that I should say this much—-that we have arrived at a period of the Session when the necessity for making some progress in the Business of Supply has become so indispensable that it is desirable to ask the House to go into Committee of Supply on Monday, when my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for War will move the Army Estimates. And I wish, in consideration of the great importance and interest in the Statement which my right hon. Friend has to make, to express the hope that he will be allowed on that occasion to go into Committee and to make the Statement which he has to make.
    SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I am sorry to trouble the noble Lord with a Question, especially under the circumstance, which we must all deeply regret, of the accident which keeps the Prime Minister from the House. I understood from the opening observation of the noble Lord that he did not propose to make any statement. But he has made one, as to which I will ask a Question.

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    The noble Lord says that on Monday the Government will ask us to go into Committee of Supply on the Army Estimates. I wish to ask whether the noble Lord's attention has been directed to the Order of January 25, which is to the effect that the introduction and several stages of the Protection of Person and Property (Ireland) Bill, and the Peace Preservation (Ireland) Bill, shall have precedence of all Orders of the Day and Notices of Motion until the House shall otherwise order? I apprehend that under that Order it would be necessary to make some distinct Motion to set it aside with the view of taking other Business. I should be glad to know whether the Government intend to make any such Motion at such a time as would admit of its being discussed? I should also like to ask another Question. Notice has been given by the Prime Minister that ho will, to-morrow, at half-past 4, make a Motion that has been made on more than one occasion—namely, that when Committee of Supply stands for Monday, except for certain purposes, the Speaker shall immediately leave the Chair. I wish to know whether it is intended to take that Notice to-morrow, because two years ago when I moved it it led to a three nights' debate.
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: The point which has boon raised by the right hon. Gentleman as to the Resolution passed by the House last month would, no doubt, have been one of the subjects to which my right hon. Friend would have referred had he made his statement to-day; and I hope that in his absence the House will excuse mo if I do not now make any further remarks upon it. I trust, at all events, to be able to see my right hon. Friend tomorrow, and, if necessary, to give a Notice on the subject. Perhaps, therefore, the House will allow me to postpone the matter till to-morrow. The Notice with regard to Committee of Supply has been put down in the name of my right hon. Friend by mistake; the Motion was intended to be moved by my noble Relative the Secretary to the Treasury; but I think it would be more convenient that the Motion should not be made to-morrow.
    MR. HEALY: I bog to ask the noble Lord whether he will also postpone the Notice standing in the name of the Prime Minister to move—
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    "That, upon the Consideration of the Protection of Person and Property (Ireland) Bill, as amended this day, at 7 o'clock, any Amendments then standing upon the Notice Paper he put forthwith?"
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I am not prepared to postpone that Motion. With the permission of the House, when called upon by Mr. Speaker, I wish to move it.
    MR. A. M. SULLIVANwished, in consequence of the noble Lord's answer, to ask a Question—namely, Whether a Motion, of which Notice bad been given by the Premier, could be moved by anyone else in his absence? He submitted that, as in any matter of criminal procedure, the Rules were very strictly applied, so that in any Rule restrictive of the ancient forms of deliberation in that House the utmost strictness should be observed; and, therefore, the Motion in the name of the Premier could not be moved by anyone but the Leader of the House. The right hon. Gentleman not being present, the Leader-ship of the House was a matter as to which the House had no cognizance. ["Oh, oh!"] There might, of course, be a Leader of the House for the time being; but the House could not recognize private understandings between right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury Bench, and the Leadership was not necessarily associated with the India Office. He, therefore, wished to know whether the Speaker was not bound to call upon the Premier, in whose name the Notice stood? And he submitted that if anyone else rose to move the Motion in his absence, as Loader of the House, the House must have some means of knowing how he became Leader of the House.
    MR. CALLANsaid, he desired to put a similar Question, but for a different reason to that advanced by the hon. and learned Member. His ground was a ruling given by the Speaker yesterday. When an Amendment to this, but which stood in the name of the hon. Member for the City of Cork, was attempted to be moved by another hon. Member, the Speaker ruled that the hon. Member for Cork should have been in his place, and that no other Member was entitled to be substituted for him.
    MR. SPEAKER: The Motion of which the Prime Minister has given Notice is a Motion relating to the order of the

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    Business of this House. As the House is aware, Motions of that character are almost invariably made by the Leader of the House, on behalf of the House, to regulate the order of Business. I consider that in the absence of the Leader of the House it would be competent for any Minister of the Crown to make that Motion, and more particularly because the Rule to which this Motion refers expressly states that a Minister of the Crown is the person by whom the Motion should be made.

MOTION.

  PROTECTION OF PERSON"AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL —VOTE OF URGENCY.—RESOLUTION.
  Motion made, and Question put,
  "That, upon the Consideration of the Protection of Person and Property (Ireland) Bill, as amended, this day, at 7 o'clock, any Amendments then standing upon the Notice Paper be put forthwith."—(The Marquess of Hartington.)
  The House divided:—Ayes 371; Noes S3: Majority 318.—(Div. List, No. 84.)

ORDER OF TEE DAY.
  PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.— [BILL 90.]
  (Mr. W. E. Forster, Mr. Gladstone, Sir William Harcourt.)
  PROTECTION OF PERSON AND PROPERTY (IRELAND) BILL.— [BILL 90.]

    CONSIDERATION. [ADJOURNED DERATE.] [THIRD NIGHT.]
    Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to the Bill [23rd February], (on Consideration, as amended).
    And which Amendment was,
    In page 2, after sub-section (3), to insert a new sub-section:—"(4.) On the expiration of a period of three months after the arrest of each person detained under this Act, and so from time to time on the expiration of each succeeding period of three months while such person is detained, the Lord Lieutenant shall consider the case of such person and decide there on; and the decision of the Lord Lieutenant in that behalf shall be certified under his hand, or the hand of the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, to each Clerk of the Crown, by whom a copy of the warrant under which such person shall be detained shall he filed in his public office, under this Act, and each such Clerk of the Crown shall record such decision by indorsement on the copy of the warrant so filed in his office."—(Mr. William Edward Forster.)
    Question again proposed, "That the new sub-section be there inserted."
    Debate resumed.
    MR. CALLAN,having been the last speaker on the previous evening, inquired of the Speaker whether, in giving precedence to the Amendment of his hon. Friend (Mr. Metge), the first on the Paper, he would be entitled to make the Motion which stood in his name immediately alter that of his hon. Friend had been disposed of? If he were not allowed to do so he would, while in possession of the House, conclude with the Motion which he proposed making; but, as a matter of convenience, and as the Amendment of his hon. Friend stood before his Motion, he would wish to give that Amendment preference, if by so doing he did not forfeit his right to make his own Motion.
    MR. SPEAKERsaid, after the Amendment of the hon. Member for Meath was disposed of the hon. Gentleman would be at liberty to move his Amendment.
    MR. METGEmoved, as an Amendment, to substitute "two" for "three," so that the several cases might be considered every two months. He thought it would be better that one month should be the time; but he would propose two as a compromise, which he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would accept.
    Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment, in line 1, to leave out the word "Three," in order to insert the word "Two,"—(Mr. Metge,) —instead thereof.
    Question proposed, "That the word 'Three' stand part of the proposed Amendment."
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, the hon. Member spoke of this proposal as a compromise. For his own part, he thought he was carrying out the views of hon. Members opposite when he proposed three months. He could not consent to shorten the time, for throe months was a reasonable period.
    MR. O'DONNELLregretted that he was unable to support the Amendment, as he had suggested to the Chief Secretary the period of three months, a suggestion which the right hon. Gentleman had been kind enough to accept.
    MR. A. M. SULLIVANexplained that the object of the Amendment was to enable the Lord Lieutenant to ascertain, as soon as possible, whether an innocent person had been put into prison or not. If any mistake had been made there was no reason why an inno-

    1667
    cent man should not have a chance of being released at the end of two months instead of three.
    MR. HEALYsaid, this was a case of putting restrictions on the Irish Executive. From his point of view, he was in favour of putting every restriction on the Executive. All that the Amendment proposed was, that a man should have a chance of obtaining his liberty sooner if it was found that he had been wrongfully arrested.
    MR. BIGGARhoped the House would agree to the Amendment: but really, lest innocent men should be wrongfully confined, ho thought there should be a monthly investigation.
    MR. BARRYthought it would be a very hard thing for a man to be three months without having an opportunity of establishing his innocence. If, however, the Chief Secretary objected to the period of two months, perhaps he would alter the Amendment to read "within a period of three months." It would leave it open to the Lord Lieutenant to consider the case within three months, and do away with a hard-and-fast line.
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, it was not necessary to adopt that suggestion. Whenever his noble Friend the Lord Lieutenant obtained information that a prisoner was wrongfully detained he would not wait throe months to review his case. The chief object in fixing the revision every three months was not to ascertain whether the reasonable suspicion upon which he had been arrested had been then removed, but whether it was necessary for the public interest that he should be further detained.
    MR. O'SULLIVANhoped the Government would not bind themselves to a tri-monthly investigation. In England, when the Tories were in Office, they held an investigation once a-month.
    MR. W. E. FORSTER: As I have already said, it is not necessary that we should wait for three months if we believe the person should be discharged.
    Amendment to the said proposed Amendment, by leave, Withdrawn.
    MR. CALLANmoved, in line 4, after "Lord Lieutenant," to insert, "by and with the advice of the Privy Council in Ireland." The other day they were assured by the Prime Minister of the solemnity of the functions which the Privy Council had to perform. Well, he
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    believed it could have no more solemn and sacred duty than to inquire, under those circumstances, into the merits of the prisoners who were detained. He did not join the number of Members who sat on that side of the House in the denunciation of some of the Irish Judges. On the contrary, he had for them a very high respect, and particularly for those who were members of the Privy Council. If, unfortunately, he should happen to become an unfortunate prisoner—although he did not believe he would, for he would do nothing to bring himself under the purview of the Act—he would much rather have the merits of the question tested by those who had great experience of sifting evidence than to have his case investigated by the Lord Lieutenant, or even the Chief Secretary for Ireland. He would rather have his case tested by Mr. Justice Fitzgerald, Mr. Baron Dowse, or Mr. Justice Barry, not because he was known personally to them, but because he believed, from their avocations and habits of life, they would sift the evidence with skill, and, were there a vein of exaggeration running through the information, would readily detect it. If the Chief Secretary would accept his Amendment he would willingly withdraw the other which stood in his name.
    Amendment proposed,
    In line 4 of the said proposed Amendment after the words "Lord Lieutenant," to insert the words "by and with the advice of the Privy Council in Ireland."—(Mr. Callan.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he was not surprised at the hon. Member saying he would strike out his other Amendment if the one before the House were carried, because they were so very contradictory to one another. He could not well understand how the same Member could justify both Amendments. But the question of adding the words proposed would make a very considerable difference, because it would make the members of the Privy Council really responsible for a prisoner being detained after the expiration of three months. The proposition appeared to him to be perfectly inconsistent with the spirit of the Bill, which gave to the Lord Lieu-

    1669
    tenant, as the Representative of the Government, the power to arrest. Why should it not leave in the same hands the power to re-consider the arrest? Another reason would be that the Privy Council, which consisted of a large number of persons, might all give a vote, and so it would be left to them really to decide, thus taking away from the Government the responsibility resting upon them, and putting it into the hands of whoever had been appointed a member of the Privy Council either by the present or last Governments.
    SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAcould really not understand the proposition of his hon. Friend. He thought the Amendment of the Chief Secretary was better as it stood. No doubt it would be very hard lines, indeed, when the Bill came into operation; but he would prefer to leave to the noble Lord who would administer the Government of Ireland, or to the Chief Secretary, the office of mercy, than relegate it to a very large number of gentlemen, no doubt of the very highest position and standing, but, nevertheless, who could not understand the nature of the charge that had been made, and all the surrounding circumstances, as well as the Lord Lieutenant or the Chief Secretary.
    MR. BIGGARopposed the Amendment. If the Irish Privy Council was composed of men of such impartial character as the late Baron Pigott, and the present Judge O'Brien, and perhaps some of the other Judges named by his hon. Friend (Mr. Callan), he would be disposed to support the Amendment very warmly; but when it was partly composed of men who wore unable to arrive at an impartial decision, such as the Chief Justice of the Queen's Bench, it would be very unwise to extend this responsibility to them. He thought that it was better for them to confine them-selves to an extremely bad tribunal— one which had some influence—than to extend the responsibility to a worse tribunal, over which they had no influence at all.
    MR. M'COANsaid, the obvious objection to the Amendment was that its practical effect would be to distribute amongst the numerous body comprising the Privy Council the responsibility of this Bill which was now centred in the Chief Secretary and the Lord Lieutenant.
    MR. LEAMYconfessed that he was much surprised to see such an Amendment proposed by his hon. Friend. As far as he was concerned, he should certainly vote against it.
    MR. R. POWERasked that the Amendment should be withdrawn, because he not only could not agree with it, but did not understand what it meant.
    MR. CALLANsaid, as his Amendment did not seem to commend itself to the House, he begged to ask leave to withdraw it.
    Amendment to the said proposed Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. REDMONDmoved, in line 4, after "person," insert "upon whatever evidence the relatives or friends of said person may adduce." The object ho had in view in asking for the insertion of these words was that an innocent person might have every opportunity of proving his innocence. Up to now the action of the Government had gone in a different direction, as they had refused to concede anything to facilitate innocent men proving they were unjustly apprehended. On the commonest principles of justice this Amendment ought to commend itself to the House.
    Amendment proposed,
    In line 4 of the said proposed Amendment, after the word "person," to insert the words "upon whatever evidence the relatives or friends of said person may adduce."—(Mr Redmond.)
    Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
    MR. W. E. FORSTERobjected to the Amendment, on the ground that it would be importing into the matter the form of a judicial investigation. In addition to that, he thought it would be exceedingly hard to the person arrested, because it would very seriously limit the power of the Lord Lieutenant in re-considering the case. It would limit him to the evidence that the relations or friends might adduce. ["No, no!"] He considered it would have that effect, and there were two grounds why arrests should be re-considered — first, as to whether the reasonable suspicion existed any longer; and, secondly, whether it was necessary to punish the accused by detaining them any longer.
    MR. FINIGANasked why they should be called upon to place themselves in the hands of the Chief Secretary and the

    1671
    chief of the police. No doubt the Lord Lieutenant was a very good man; but the people who would have to deal with the matter were the Chief Secretary and the police, and he altogether declined to accept these persons, because the Chief Secretary had neither a correct idea of what was law nor what was justice.
    MR. BYRNEsupported the Amendment, and said that without it the inquiry of the Lord Lieutenant would be simply useless. The Lord Lieutenant would be asked to act, as it were, in a judicial position; and, unless evidence was given by friends of the prisoner, how could he for a moment decide upon his guilt or innocence?
    SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAhoped that the Chief Secretary would consent to the insertion of some words which would give effect to the purpose of the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for New Boss. As things stood the Lord Lieutenant would have no evidence, but a simple schedule. If it was thought that the actual words of the Amendment gave too much latitude on one hand, and too little on the other, some such words as "including whatever evidence the relatives and friends of the accused might adduce" might be inserted. He wished that the Irish people should have reason to believe that the Government desired not only to coerce, but to adjudicate. At present the Lord Lieutenant would have nothing to adjudicate upon.
    MR. LEAMYthought that without the addition of words equivalent to the Amendment before the House the Chief Secretary's Amendment would have no value whatever. They only asked that a particular kind of evidence should be admitted. They did not require that the Lord Lieutenant should necessarily act upon that evidence.
    MR. SEXTONprotested against the refusal of the Government to accept the Amendment. It seemed to him that men were to be liable to illegal arrest without showing by their relatives and friends that they were innocent.
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that he had promised them every inquiry should be made.
    MR. SEXTONsaid, if that was the intention of the Government he failed to see why they should object to making the matter clear by accepting the Amendment. Why should they not make their
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    determination of a specific nature, and then no mistake could arise? Unless they did he should be driven to the conclusion that the inquiries which the Government promised would lead to nothing. The Lord Lieutenant would only read over the old records, and decide on them, and the real facts of the case would never come out at all. Unless that was so let it be stated in the Bill, and ho was sure it would give great satisfaction.
    MR. BARRYsaid, that unless there was some provision made, such as was suggested by the Amendment, he could see that it would be impossible for the relatives and friends of prisoners to bring forward any evidence that would be of any value.
    MR. HEALYsaid, he was at a loss to know what objection there could be to the acceptance of the Amendment if the Chief Secretary wished to prevent innocent people from suffering.
    MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYconsidered the Amendment a fair and moderate one.
    MR. CALLANsaid, it was to be hoped the Chief Secretary would accept this Amendment. Common sense was a commodity which seemed to be very much wanted amongst the draftsmen of the Bill at least; and for the life of him he could not see what objection there could be to expressing in the Act itself what the Government professed was the principle that governed their actions, for it simply stated that the Lord Lieutenant should consider the case of a person. In that case let them include any evidence the relatives of the said person might bring forward. If he would not accept the Amendment, he asked the right hon. Gentleman whether he would condescend to pledge himself on the part of the Executive to make this a part of the case in some shape or point?
    And it being Seven of the clock, Mr. Speaker, in pursuance of the Order of the House, put the Question.
    The House divided: —Ayes 41; Noes 337: Majority 296.—(Div. List, No. 85.)
    Amendment proposed, in line 6 of the said proposed Amendment, to leave out the word "or," in order to insert the word"and,"—(Mr. Healy,)—instead thereof.
    Question put, "That the word 'or' stand part of the said proposed Amendment."
    The House divided:—Ayes 282; Noes 39: Majority 243.—(Div. List, No. 86.)
    Amendment proposed to the said proposed Amendment,
    At the end, to insert the words "and such decision shall be laid before each House of Parliament within the first seven days of every month during which Parliament is sitting, and when Parliament is not sitting such decision shall be published in the Dublin Gazette within the first seven days of every month."—(Mr. Healy.)
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The House divided: —Ayes 36; Noes 230: Majority 194.—(Div. List, No. 87.)
    New sub-section inserted.
    MR. SPEAKER: I have to point out that the next Amendment standing in the name of the hon. Member for Wexford cannot be put, because the question involved refers to a matter already decided by the House. The same remark also applies to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Tralee.
    Amendment proposed,
    In page 2, line 14, to insert at end of Clause 1,"Nothing in this Clause shall be understood to interfere with the right of all persons to take part in public meetings, unless such meeting or meetings shall have been previously forbidden to be held by proclamation made by order of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland for the time being."—(Mr. Leamy.)
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The House divided: —Ayes 35; Noes 205: Majority 170.—(Div. List, No. 88.)
    Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 16, to leave out the word "or," and insert the word "and,"—(Mr. Healy,)—instead thereof.
    Question put, "That the word 'or' stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided:—Ayes 201; Noes 34: Majority 167.—(Div. List, No. 89.)
    THE O'DONOGHUEdirected attention to an Amendment standing on the Paper in the name of the Solicitor General for Ireland, which, he said, had apparently escaped the Speaker's notice, as it had not been put from the Chair.
    MR. SPEAKERexplained that he had not put it because it appeared on the Paper by a clerical error.
    THE O'DONOGHUE: Then there was the Amendment of the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Metge).
    MR. SPEAKERsaid, that was not challenged.
    Several Irish MEMBERS: It was challenged.
    Amendment made.
    Amendment proposed,
    In page 2, line 30, to leave out the words "by and with the advice of the Privy Council in Ireland."—(Mr. Callan.)
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided:—Ayes 199; Noes 34: Majority 165.—(Div. List, No. 90.)
    Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 31, to leave out the words "and when made revoke and alter."—(Mr. Daly.)
    Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided:—Ayes 201; Noes 37: Majority 164.—(Div. List, No. 91.)
    Amendment proposed,
    In page 3, line 3, after sub-section (4), insert the following sub-section:—(5.) "Person" means adult male person.—(Mr. William Corbet.)
    Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
    The House divided: —Ayes 34; Noes 190: Majority 156.—(Div. List, No. 92.)
    MR. SPEAKER: I have to inform the House that the two Amendments standing in the name of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) are inadmissible in this Bill.
    Amendment proposed,
    In page 3, line 7, to leave out the words "thirtieth day of September one thousand eight hundred and eighty-two," in order to insert the words "first day of January one thousand eight hundred and eighty-two,"—(Mr. Redmond)
    —instead thereof.
    Question put, "That the words 'thirtieth day of September one thousand eight hundred and eighty-two' stand part of the Bill."
    The House divided: —Ayes 195; Noes 38: Majority 157.—(Div. List, No. 93.)
    MR. SPEAKER: There are two more Amendments on the Paper—one standing in the name of the hon. Member for Wicklow (Mr. M'Coan) and the other in the name of the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Pavnell). The principles contained in these Amendments, which propose to take away the retrospective action of the Bill and to restrict its operation to September 31 next, having been already decided by previous votes, the Amendments are inadmissible. I have now to call on the right hon. Gentleman in charge of the Bill to state what course he proposes to take.
    MR. W. E. FORSTER: I beg, Sir, to move that the Bill be now read a third time. I do not think for a moment of taking up the time of the House by reiterating and repeating my argument either in defence of the Bill or in description of the Bill; but, as it is not the usual course to move the third reading of a Bill immediately after receiving the Report of it, I wish to state why, on the part of the Government, I take this course to-night, in the full confidence that the House will approve of my doing so. It will be remembered that the Bill was brought forward as a matter of great urgency, and the House, by a Resolution which was carried by a very large majority, accepted the conviction of the Government that it was an urgent measure. But as, notwithstanding that urgency, this is the 21st day that the measure has been before the House, and as it has been accepted by a very large majority, I now beg to move the third reading of the Bill.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."—(Mr. William Edward Forster.)
    MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYrose to address the House, when—
    Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,
    MR. JUSTIN M'CARTHYproceeded to say that, when this Bill was first introduced, the majority of the section of Irish Members with whom he acted announced that they felt it their duty to give to it in all its stages their most uncompromising opposition. He thought,
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    however, other Parties in that House might have failed to keep the pledges they had given. The Irish Members had thus far fairly fulfilled their promise in that respect. They had hitherto given this Bill every legitimate and becoming opposition in their power, and, in further pursuance of the promise, he rose to offer almost the last opposition it was in their power to give to this most unnecessary, most dangerous, and most unworthy Bill, and to move that it be read—not now, but at a saner period for the House and the country—that day six months. He maintained that they had kept their opposition to the Bill strictly within the bounds of what was legitimate, becoming, necessary, and Constitutional. The Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant, in speaking that night, referred to the fact that the Bill had taken 21 days to bring it to its present stage of progress, and he seemed to think that was something extraordinary—something involving an unparalleled and intolerable trial on the patience of the House of Commons; and he seemed to imply that Irish Members were guilty of something like an outrage against the tender feelings of Her Majesty's Government and the British public. The Chief Secretary evidently thought of Coercion Bills only in those later and feebler days, when passing a Coercion Bill for Ireland was a matter of easy amusement for the House of Commons and the House of Lords. The right hon. Gentleman had been a practical working statesman in days when a Coercion Bill for Ireland could be passed at any moment as it suited the whim or pleasure of the Ministry in existence; when there was no organized power in the hands of the Irish Members to make anything like a fair and prolonged stand against its passing into law; but they must remember that there were times when the opposition to coercion was of a little more robust kind than that, and more nearly resembled the opposition it had been their duty and pleasure to offer to this measure. Let him call to the memory of the House the famous Coercion Bill introduced by the Government of Lord Grey. If any man had a claim on the patience and endurance of the House of Commons, on all men of Liberal thoughts, and on Irish Members, Lord Grey was assuredly that man. He brought in that Bill after

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    his great and magnificent success in passing the Reform Bill. He came and asked the Parliament which be had called into existence not merely by the process of new election, but by a process of entire change in the country—he came and appealed to them to allow him to pass a Coercion Bill for Ireland. He (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) was bound to say that he did bring forward strong reasons why coercion might have seemed necessary. Ho brought forward Returns of outrage showing a different condition of things from that to which the Chief Secretary had again and again described—Returns very different from the trumpery and preposterous stories of outrage with which the Chief Secretary had more than once astonished and amused the House of Commons. And how was his proposal received? Was it passed through in the course of one or two clays? Not at all. A strenuous opposition, such as they had not seen even in the present case, was offered to Lord Grey's Coercion Bill. It was not only resisted in the House of Commons, but even the House of Lords, before which it was brought in the first instance, did not consent to rattle through it with the unseemly and indecent haste which they had witnessed in more recent years. Mr. Spencer Walpole, a near relative of a distinguished Member of that House, in his very admirable and impartial History of England, made some strictures on the conduct of the House of Lords for the rapidity with which they passed the measure. He commented on the fact that the House of Lords hardly thought it necessary to discuss a Bill fatal to the existence of freedom in Ireland. But what did the House of Lords do? Did they pass the three readings at one Sitting? Not at all; they took some time over it. The measure was brought before the Lords for the first time on the 15th of February; it was read a second time on Monday, the 18th of February; it went into Committee in the House of Lords on Tuesday, the 19th of February; Re-port was taken on Thursday, the 21st of February; and the third reading was passed on Friday, the 22nd of February. Therefore, that kind of haste which a most impartial historian censured as unbecoming in the House of Lords kept them more than a week in discussing the measure. They put it through its
    1678
    several stages with, at all events, dignity and decency, and did not condescend to rush it through, even to gratify the great Minister who then presided over the destinies of England. It was taken into the House of Commons almost immediately afterwards, and how did it prosper? Six long nights were occupied with the question of leave to bring in the Bill; four nights were occupied in discussing the second reading; six nights were given to the consideration of the Bill in Committee; one night was taken up then by the House of Lords in considering the Amendments introduced in the House of Commons; and that Coercion Bill, introduced by Earl Grey in the House of Lords on the 15th of February, received the Royal Assent on the 3rd of April. Now, he asked any hon. Member of the House, on whatever side he was, how could he possibly join in the wonder and indignation expressed by the Chief Secretary because the House of Commons had been 21 nights discussing this unnecessary—this worthless—Coercion Bill, when Earl Grey, with all the force of a new Administration, a now Parliament, and new constituencies, was occupied from the 15th of February till the 3rd of April in passing through a measure which no one in the House of Commons, oven among Irish Members, declared to be absolutely unnecessary. That simple fact disposed of the constant charge made against Irish Members of having occupied unnecessarily the time of Her-Majesty's Government, and of having delayed the progress of the Coercion Bill. The truth was that in later times they fell into bad habits; and at last it came to pass that, if the House of Lords were to take the course which Mr. Walpole censured as indecent in its haste, and occupied a week and a day in discussing the measure, the whole country would wonder whether the House of Lords was not yielding to the vice of Obstruction. The fact was that in 1833 the Irish Party was an organized Party, and had a resolute Leader. After that they became for a long time disorganized and leaderless. They were now again an organized Party and had a resolute Leader, whose position for the moment he found himself most inadequately compelled to occupy. Let them look for a moment at the history of this Coercion Bill. It carried, indeed,

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    very much of its history written on its face. This was not a Coercion Bill introduced for the purpose of making any change in or bettering the condition of Ireland. It was not introduced for the purpose of meeting any emergency or existing necessity in Ireland. This was a Coercion Bill introduced to satisfy what was oddly called public opinion in England. By public opinion in England was meant the public opinion of a certain portion of the population of the Metropolis, living for the most part in the West End. Ho did the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant the justice to believe that he had a certain amount of good intention in introducing the Bill. He did not believe the right hon. Gentleman thought it necessary for the purpose of maintaining order in Ireland; but he did think ho thought it necessary for the purpose of maintaining what might fairly be called order in England, satisfying the clamour of London, and inducing a state of mind which might enable the Government to pass their Irish measures of Land Reform. He believed the Government saw that there was a temper got up in London against Ireland and the Irish Party, which would render it very difficult for them to pass their measure of Land Reform; and he believed they more or less threw this sop to the barking Cerberus in the Metropolis, and that they brought in this Coercion Bill in order that they might have a better chance of passing their measure of Land Reform. They saw that, with some three or four honourable exceptions, the Press of London was clamorous for any measure of coercion for Ireland that would displease and dissatisfy the Irish people. They were out of temper with Ireland; they were displeased with the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. Parnell) and the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Dillon), and he supposed they did like not very much any of the Irish Members who represented national constituencies in the House of Commons, and they were anxious that anything should be done to inflict some sort of punishment on the country that had sent those persons to Parliament to disturb the sweet tranquillity of Her Majesty's Ministry. On that subject most of the newspapers were in harmonious agreement, from the deep growl of The Times to the shrilly scream of The St.
    1680
    James's Gazette. In the words of King Lear—
    "The little dogs and all,
    Tray, Blanch, and Sweetheart, see, they hark at me."
    At that time the attitude of the Chief Secretary was noticeable. His language was dark and menacing. He spoke of the portentous state of things he had only just discovered, and without immediately producing any official Returns, he contrived to anticipate the effect of their publication. Hon. Members would recollect the various changes that had been evident in the mind of the right hon. Gentleman. He first began by alleging the great turbulence of the whole of the Irish population, and he drew, like a political Rembrandt, a striking picture of certain Irish districts which were ruled by "dissolute ruffians" who had got to be leaders of the Land League, and masters of the society of the village. He believed the right hon. Gentleman sincerely believed what he first said on this subject; but that was because he knew nothing of the real facts of the case. He was, however, reminded in this House that in the majority of cases the leader of the Land League in the different districts was one of the respected Roman Catholic clergy of the place; and the Chief Secretary was asked if he meant to describe these gentlemen as "dissolute ruffians," and he assured the House he never meant anything of the kind. He was perfectly certain he never did mean it. The fact was that up to that time the Chief Secretary had not the faintest notion that the Roman Catholic clergy had anything to do with the organization or leadership of the Land League. That fact came upon him as a perfect revelation, and then dawned upon his mind two facts—first, that the Land League was by no means the disorganized association of men he had imagined, but that it was a body doing a stupendous work in Ireland, and most dangerous in that way to the existing system of landlordism and land tenure. At once the "dissolute ruffians" vanished from the scene, and had never been heard of any more from that time to this. The right hon. Gentleman had ceased to remind the House even of the existence of that extraordinary set of men. Then came the time when it was necessary to lay his Returns upon the Table of the

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    House to show the fearful outrages that were going on throughout Ireland. He would not again analyze the figures of those Returns; but he might fairly say that they were received by the House with a certain amount of decorous laughter, and that probably no one on the Treasury Bench regarded them as a serious argument for the Bill. If they took the worst county in Ireland where the greatest distress prevailed, and where the commission of outrages would be most naturally expected, they found that those Returns showed no necessity whatever for a departure from the ordinary laws of the Realm. In his own county almost unexampled quietness prevailed, only one grave offence having been committed during the last year, and yet Longford stood not first, but third or fourth in the list of orderly counties. The offender was at once arrested, tried, and sentenced to 20 years' penal servitude. The Solicitor General for Ireland had, however, painted that county as if it were in the flames of a civil war. He described a body of men lying concealed in ambush behind trees ready to attack the military; but there was not as much as a hedge there that would shelter even a rabbit.
    THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. W. M. JOHNSON): I said they were sheltered by an embankment, and I have here a letter to prove it.
    MR. JUSTIN M 'CARTHYsaid, the House now perfectly understood the value of those Returns. A great many of them consisted in the breaking of panes of glass, pulling down cocks of hay, and the sending threatening letters announcing the intention, if something was not done, of breaking more panes of glass or pulling down more cocks of hay. But those Returns had dropped out of sight, and they had not been able from that time to this to extort from the Chief Secretary any further Returns of agricultural crime in Ireland. Latterly the right hon. Gentleman had taken a new line, and had attitudinized as the open enemy of the Land League. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Home Secretary, however, took a wider range than his Colleagues. He crossed the Atlantic at a bound, and introduced them to some desperate and truculent men who were plotting assassination to a degree that had never been dreamt of before, and he declared that because this was
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    going on in America a Coercion Act was necessary for Ireland. There seemed to be a strange scheme to assassinate everybody in London, and the Home Secretary's method of grappling with it was to put the County of Dublin under coercion. The Home Secretary himself was not willing peacefully to be done to death in Whitehall without making some struggle for life by coercing the people of Longford. That was the newest reason for this Bill, He (Mr. Justin M'Carthy) knew something of America, and he had never heard of any such diabolical agitation— diabolical if it were not absolutely ridiculous. He would advise the Home Secretary, when he was told of plots for assassinating Her Majesty's Ministers, blowing up the Houses of Parliament, and setting the Thames on fire, to treat them with absolute contempt. Human nature would never so change that a considerable number of persons in this or any other country, even the Nihilists of Russia, could long continue to cherish such designs. He trusted Her Majesty's Ministers would live long and happily— long after these plotters in America, and their papers, their dynamite, and their daggers were forgotten. But, lot the plotters be as bad as they might, no plots conceived in America and to be executed in London could be counteracted by coercion in Tipperary or in Cork. He would remind the right hon. and learned Gentleman of the words used by Lord John Russell with respect to Lord Palmerston's Conspiracy Bill. Lord John Russell had said that the fanatical assassins who were really dangerous were persons who would not be deterred by any fear of punishment or force of coercion. He thought, therefore, that they might dismiss, as the atripal, not to say melodramatic, the display made by the Home Secretary; for he could hardly think that while the right hon. and learned Gentleman was reading the dreadful threats his pulse beat one tittle higher, or that he felt the least alarmed as to the possible success of those schemes. The Chief Secretary had indicated that the existing system of things in Ireland had found a serious rival in the Land League, and, for his part, he could not doubt that the real object of this Bill was to break up the organization of the Land League and suspend its operations.

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    Nothing in our time ever took hold of the minds of the Irish public with the same quickness and force as did the organization of the Land League. He was sorry to say that ho had only recently become a member. It was only when the Government issued their offensive challenge and started a prosecution against members of the Land League that ho thought it the duty of every Irishman who pretended to be a patriot to join the organization—an honest and open organization—a body which aimed at closing, and rightly claimed to have closed, the era of secret and midnight conspiracy that under so many different names had been the terror and curse of Ireland for many generations. The Land League was the strongest argument against the Bill, to which he should continue to offer an uncompromising resistance, even if there were no other ground than that it was designed to suppress that organization. The Bill was absolutely unnecessary, superfluous, and worthless. He wished he could say it was only worthless. But it was much worse than worthless. It would cause great bitterness of feeling, and would re-open the melancholy chapter of secret nocturnal conspiracy in Ireland. Then, see at what a cost they had purchased the passing of it through Parliament! It had not been many weeks under discussion, and they had already had to break down, one by one, some of the most ancient and treasured traditions of the Constitution; they had had to do things which might at any time place the most patriotic and enlightened minority at the mercy of some reckless and despotic majority. Unless the Government could show the existence of serious disturbance in order to justify such a measure, they had better think once, twice, nay, thrice, before pressing it forward. The Government put him in mind of a picture by Hogarth, where a furious partizan, dissatisfied with the political device on a sign, was sawing down the signboard, without remembering that ho himself was sitting on it. Ho held that the Irish Members had so far done their duty in resisting the measure; and it would have been well if English Members had joined them more largely, and so prevented the purchase of Irish coercion at the cost of the liberties of their own country. In their eagerness to cut down the Land
    1684
    League the Government had been cutting down much that was best in the whole system of Parliamentary Government. If the Irish Members were inclined to be vindictive, bitter indeed would be the revenge that the Government had put into their possession. In pulling down the organization of the League the Government had gone near to pulling down the pillars of their own Parliamentary system. In conclusion, he begged to move that the Bill be read a third time that day six months.
    Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."— (Mr. Justin M'Carthy.)
    Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
    COLONEL COLTHURSTsaid, he felt himself called upon to say a few words before this measure was passed, and he could not help stating his belief that a great deal of the difficulty which had arisen, and which called forth the legislation, would have been obviated had the Compensation for Disturbance Bill of last Session been made law. He desired to speak particularly of one class of tenants in Ireland; but before he did so, he might remind the House that the tenantry of that country might be divided into three classes. There was one class which could afford to pay rents, but with held them, on the ground that they could not pay more than Griffith's valuation before the Land Question was settled. He had no sympathy with them, because he believed they could pay; but there was another class, who, following the mischievous and bad advice given to them by the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell), who was probably better employed in cementing the new-born alliance between the Land League and the Paris Anarchists and Communists. Cries of "No, no!"and "Shame!"] Yes; he repeated it. He hoped the hon. Member found himself bettor employed than in giving the advice that he and others had so often given. The poor tenants to whom he referred withheld the rent which they had made a sacrifice to get together, offered Griffith's valuation, which was refused, and they had now spent the money in meeting other demands. In what position would the

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    Bill find these men? They would be helpless, and on the verge of ruin. The hon. Member for the City of Cork would be called to assist them; but all he could do would be to give them £5 or £10 out of the funds of the Land League; and he repeated that he laid the blame of the ruin of those poor people at the door of the hon. Member for the City of Cork. There was, however, a third class, which the Bill of last Session was meant to protect until they had recovered from the pressure which three years of bad harvests had forced upon them. This class had, of necessity, fallen into arrears, and were unable to pay their rents. If they required protection last year—and it was admitted that they did—there was a greater necessity for protection now. It might be said—and had been said— that a good harvest would put them on their legs, to use a common expression, and, had the Compensation for Disturbance Bill of last year passed, and given them the security it was designed to give, it certainly would have put them on their feet again; but without it the good harvest had only made them a better mark for the creditors, whether landlords, traders, or money lenders. He maintained that it was the bounden duty of the Government and the House, now that the present Bill would remove the only protection the poor people had, however illegal it might be, to consider the position in which they were. He suggested that the question of arrears of rent ought to be referred to the Commission, which was sure to be called into operation in regard to the Land Question, and that it should be called into existence at once. If no provision was made for the settlement of the question of arrears, the House would seriously injure, if not entirely mar, what he hoped would be a final and just and equitable settlement of the Land Question.
    MR. O'SULLIVANsaid, he could not understand the grounds on which the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Colthurst) had attempted to lay the so-called ruin of the tenants at the door of the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. Parnell). While the Government was looking on without doing anything for the Irish peasants on the verge of starvation, the hon. Member for Cork City went to America and collected £60,000, which was distributed. Surely that was
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    not bringing ruin on the Irish tenants. Again, without any exaggeration, there had been between £1,000,000 and £2,000,000 of arrears wiped off, owing to the action of the hon. Member for Cork City. Surely that was not the way to bring about the ruin of the Irish tenants. Although it was a foregone conclusion with the Government to pass this Bill, he should resist it to the utmost. It would be a tyrannical enactment, entirely destructive of liberty. It was said it was only to enable them to deal with bad members of society; but he did not see any limit to its power. As soon as the Bill was passed, they would have every man in Ireland at the mercy of the magistrates and the police. The Irish people knew well, from hitter experience, that those powers given in the Bill would be used with a vengeance. He also opposed the Bill because it was not required in his country, notwithstanding the large number of crimes multiplied in the Blue Book, most of which consisted of threatening letters and other minor offences. He maintained they would find few countries in the world freer from serious crime than Ireland. Take the crimes of murder; what did they find? They found, from every cause during the past year in all Ireland, 20 murders. That was 26 too many; but let them take one district of one county in England during the same period. They found, according to the Return of one Coroner, verdicts brought in for five murders and nine cases of manslaughter. That was more than one-half the entire murders committed in Ireland, with 5,500,000 people, and yet they did not ask for a Coercion Bill for England. He opposed the Bill because it was grossly unjust to deprive the people of their liberties without sufficient cause. The real cause for the Bill was that they wished to give arbitrary powers to rack-renting landlords, and to enforce the payment of unjust and exorbitant rents. This was a question which had agitated Ireland for the last 300 years; and because the Land League had brought it to a crisis, and made it ripe for settlement, the Government turned round on it and prosecuted a large number of its members. What had been the result? By a verdict of 10 to 2, the jury had declared against the landlords; and they would find that

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    verdict endorsed by at least that proportion, if they could take the honest, unprejudiced vote of the entire country. So far back as 1844, the then Lord Stanley said—
    "The remedy for the evils in Ireland is not to ho found in emigration, hut in a system under which the Irish tenant would he induced to invest his labour and his capital in the land ho cultivated."
    This was what was required to settle this question once and for ever. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had told the House that O'Connell, during all his agitation, admonished the people not to violate the laws of the country. But what did O'Connell get in return for his peaceful counsel to the people? He was brought before a packed jury by the Government of this country, who convicted him, as a matter of course, and he was thrown into a prison in the 70th year of his age, which broke his large heart. The farmer was well aware that the Land Laws had ever been made against his interest; therefore, it was only natural that he should do everything he possibly could to defeat those laws. That was the root of the land difficulty in Ireland. Wherever the farmer's voice could be heard he cried out for a settlement of that question. He held in his hand resolutions against coercion and in favour of a good, comprehensive Land Bill, passed by the Corporation of Limerick City, by the Guardians of the Kilmallock Union, and by the Town Commissioners of Rathkeale, with which he need not trouble the House. He believed that if the Government were really desirous of pacifying the people, and did not want to enable landlords to enforce terrible rack-rents, they would bring forward their Land Bill before coercion. In conclusion, ho asked what security was there that many innocent people throughout the country would not be arrested under this Bill? What protection was there for them in local prisons against persecution and insult? What guarantee was there that their businesses might not be ruined by the terror of local authority, which would prevent people from dealing with men who were imprisoned? Once this Bill passed, all liberty and protection for those whom local authorities wanted to injure and persecute from base revenge were taken away. For those and other
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    reasons, he felt he would not be discharging his duty if he did not oppose the Bill in every possible way.
    MR. A. MOOREdesired to enter his earnest protest against this Bill. He believed that if the Government had introduced remedial legislation for Ireland first they would have enlisted the sympathy of all right-minded men in any protective measures which they might afterwards have deemed it necessary to bring in. One of the greatest difficulties they had to contend with in this question was not so much the question of crime, but that of absolute poverty. A very largo proportion of the agrarian crime of Ireland would not be known by the name of agrarian crime in England, but by a totally different name. The House, perhaps, might have some difficulty in realizing what he said; but if hon. Members would carefully inquire into the subject they would find that crime and poverty ran almost hand and hand in Ireland. They would find that the counties of Cork, Galway, Mayo, and Donegal enjoyed a very unenviable position in the Returns of Outrages, and that these very districts were inhabited by a teeming population who wore almost on the brink of famine. If the Government wanted to grapple with the crime of Ireland, they must deal with its poverty. They were told that in a good year there were some 35,000 labourers who loft Mayo and Connaught for the purpose of obtaining employment in England during harvest time; and that when harvest was gathered they returned to their own country. These men did fairly well in 1876; but in 1877 their case was much worse. In 1878 they had to borrow their fares from their starving wives and families; but in 1879 7,000 of these poor follows could not find any employment at all in England. If they reckoned that each of these labourers lost £14—which was the average gains of Irish harvest labourers—they would find an aggregate loss of £100,000. Besides this, 120,000 of the men only got a part of the usual amount; and it was estimated that the total loss on this head alone amounted to £150,000. In this way the Province of Connaught lost, in 1879, the sum of £250,000. When they reflected that the total subscription raised at the London Mansion House for the relief of distress in Ireland only reached

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    £180,000, the House would have some idea of the troubles and privations which befell the people of Connaught. These harvesters returned home; they found they had no money in their pockets; they found they had no food; and they found, then, they had no out-door relief for them. This state of the Poor Law in Ireland was so intimately connected with crime that he had ventured to detain the House for a few moments. In Ireland there was no out-door relief for able-bodied men, and there was no out-door relief for persons holding more than a quarter of an acre of land. Some idea might be formed of the extent to which these restrictions were carried when he told them that in one of the poorest Unions in one of the disturbed districts the total relief granted in 1879 was only £21. In England there were seasons of extraordinary distress; but the Poor Laws were so elastic that they were equal to every occasion. There was no need in times of distress in England for a man to sell his furniture, for the Poor Law met him half way. This was not the case in Ireland. In England relief was given to an able-bodied man in case of sudden and urgent necessity; but there was no corresponding privilege in Ireland except in the case of eviction, when relief might be given for one month. Belief could be given to any member of a family in England; but in Ireland it would only be granted to the head of a family. In this country relief could be given in case of burial. There was no such thing in Ireland. In England Poor Law authorities were empowered to relieve widows; but it was not so in Ireland. Relief could not be granted in Ireland, as in England, in the case of a lunatic person; and, furthermore, in England relief could be disbursed to the wives of soldiers and sailors; but in Ireland, from which country our Army and Navy was so largely recruited, no like privilege prevailed. Again, in England the children of a man non-resident in any given Union might receive relief; but not so in Ireland. While, therefore, the poor Irish labourer was gathering in the harvest in England, there was no Poor Law to meet any destitution which might prevail in his family at home. These constituted the very grave differences between the Poor Laws of the two countries, and they were necessarily
    1690
    mixed up in the question of crime. For the man in adversity in Ireland had, as a rule, to wait until some foreign relief, or some timely benevolence from England, came to his assistance; or else abandon his home, sell his furniture, sacrifice all, in fact, and enter a workhouse, a resource which he detested in a way no Englishman could possibly realize. Poverty and crime were unquestionably closely allied in Ireland, for they could not expect the poor and hungry man to be well affected. The Poor Laws of Ireland must receive attention. There was no use in bringing in Coercion Acts if they would not remedy the evils under which Ireland groaned. The Poor Law system in Ireland was part and parcel of the Land Question. A great deal of complaint had been made about the time they had occupied in the discussion of this measure. Englishmen ought to extend to them some consideration in a matter which really involved the suspension of the liberties of the Irish people. No such stringent measure as the present had been attempted to be passed since 1817. The British Parliament had passed Coercion Acts in troubled times in Ireland; but he ventured to state that one of the consequences of this protracted struggle would be that no such measure would ever again be enforced upon them. They had accomplished the task of carrying it only after seven weeks of hard fighting, in which their own liberties had been sacrificed, and the Forms and Privileges of the House had been subjected to a strain which they were unable to bear. There was one subject which ho would like to refer to before he sat down. One of the greatest difficulties in governing Ireland was the fact of the utter distrust with which everyone viewed the law. It was not sympathy with the criminal, but it was want of confidence in the law. If Ministers wanted to make the country prosperous, they must slowly and patiently undo all the wrongs brought about by years of misrule, and educate the people to freedom. These desired results would never be attained by suspending their Constitutional liberties and placing them at the mercy of any Administration, no matter how just or how humane.
    MR. DAWSONsaid, that before this Bill was introduced ho was of opinion that it was not required by the circumstances of the country. When the Chief

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    Secretary introduced it he became more convinced that that opinion was correct; and at every stage of the Bill that conviction became more deeply confirmed. The crimes upon which it was founded were very trifling, and, while some of them were agrarian, a great many were due to social causes. He believed that the Government had been forced into an untenable position by a desire to yield to the prejudices of the landlord class both in England and in Ireland. There was not a shadow of justification for the assertion that anything like a treasonable conspiracy existed in Ireland; and when it was borne in mind that there was there a deficiency in 1879 of £11,000,000 as compared with 1878, it was scarcely to be wondered at that the farmers were, in many instances, unable to pay 20s. in the pound. With regard to remarks made by an hon. Member at an earlier period of the evening, who had asked why tenants having money should have refused to pay rent, any person who was engaged in commercial pursuits knew that a man was not expected to pay more than a legitimate price for what he got, so on the same principle farmers were not to be expected to pay more than was the market price for land, and that was all they had refused to do. He was afraid, during the progress of the debate, some hon. Members had been led, in the heat of excitement, to speak as they would not have done at other times. If they had done so he could assure the House it was not done premeditatedly. As regarded the Liberal Benches the Bill was going to be passed without much discussion; and, indeed, he might apply the description "Vaticanism" to the prevalent characteristic of that side of the House—the Government had spoken and the cause was finished.
    MR. FINIGANobjected to the third reading on several grounds. The first was that the title of the Bill was a misnomer. Instead of a Bill "For the better Protection of Person and Property in Ireland," it should have been styled a Bill "For the Protection of Landlords' Unjust Eights." They had been told by the Liberals that Irish legislation should be conducted according to Irish ideas, and that Irish Members should be consulted; but no sooner had the great Liberal Party, which was so liberal out of Office and so weak in, come
    1692
    into power, than their first and greatest act was to bring in a Coercion Bill. The Bill was to protect unjust rights unjustly exercised by a small body of landlords. There were a mere handful of good landlords in Ireland who had carried out an unjust law justly and equitably; but many hundreds of them who, having the power of eviction, had exercised that power in a manner to engender natural contempt for all law in Ireland and for those who administered it, as well as for those in whose interest it was administered. If the titles of the mass of the landlords were examined by the light either of justice or equity they would be found invalidated. But this sop to the Cerberus of landlordism was well understood in Ireland, and the Bill was well understood by the Irish people. When the lachrymose Chief Secretary introduced the Bill he had trusted to statistics, forgetting the dictum that "statistics were as delusive as facts, and that anything could be proved by them;" and his statistics, when examined, were found utterly untrustworthy, many of the so-called crimes being no crimes at all, while the threatening letters, when not foolish, were written by landlords' agents and officials to create the feeling which the Chief Secretary had done so much to maintain both here and in Ireland. He should not object to see crimes severely and summarily punished; he should also like to see outrages put a stop to; but with 30,000 troops and an army of Constabulary in Ireland the Government could surely have carried out the ordinary law, and crimes and outrages would have been put down, because the Chief Secretary said all along that the police could put their hands on those who committed them. The Bill was said to be aimed at Fenianism; but he did not believe there was any such amount of Fenianism either in Ireland or in England as would justify such a course. Young men in Ireland had had sufficient experience to learn to trust to strong and thorough Constitutional agitation and organization. There was no general desire to overturn the power of England in Ireland. The only general de-sire was that Ireland should not be governed by laws different to those which obtained in England, where legislation was in the interest of the majority of the people, and not of a

    1693
    single class. It was a great injustice to make the allegation that a great Fenian organization was in operation; and ho hoped it would never be the fate of a Liberal Government to drive the Irish people from the Constitutional platform. He had faith in the English people, and in many of Her Majesty's Ministers. If they had adhered to the principles enunciated before the Election they could have calmed and pacified Ireland, and have allayed the crimes and outrages at which the Bill was aimed. If a good Land Bill had been first introduced that would have calmed and pacified Ireland; and if that became law it would do much to pacify Ireland and make some amends for the Coercion Bill. That Bill was said to be aimed at the Land League; but he believed that organization, of which he was a member, though not a very active one, would continue to advocate firmly and Constitutionally a thorough and a revolutionary reform of the existing Irish Land Laws. He had no hostility to England or to the English people, with whom he had been brought up. All he desired was that Irishmen should have similarly free institutions, have the selection of their own officials, and the management of their own local business. In the name of the Land League he protested against a Constitutional organization being put down, especially by a Liberal Government. Too much power was given by the Bill to the Lord Lieutenant, who was a mere machine in the hands of permanent officials. Dublin Castle should be swept away and replaced by a Representative Government. That House should have some power of curtailing the arbitrary power thus conferred. As it was, it would never content or pacify Ireland, though a good Land Bill might. The present measure was merely treading in the footsteps of old Whiggery and Conservatism. He must confess, however, in saying that, that what little aid the Irish Members had received in opposing this tyrannous measure had come from some noble-minded men of the Conservative and of the English Radical Party. The Ministry contained some good men, but included some abominable Whigs, who had ruined the Liberal cause in Ireland. He protested against the measure because the experience of past times had shown it to be a false one, which would never bring content to Ire-
    1694
    land, while it was an abnegation of all Liberal principles.
    SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: Sir, the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. Justin M'Carthy), in his very moderate speech, deplored that upon him had fallen the hard fate of opposing, in its last stage, this Bill. He said he did so in the absence of the natural Leader of the Party with whom he acts. He, however, did not give us an explanation of the absence of that hon. Gentleman. I observed a speech the other day, in which the hon. Member for the City of Cork complained that you, Mr. Speaker, I think he said, had only allowed him, in the course of the discussion on this Bill, 20 minutes in which he could explain the reasons why he opposed it. Well, Sir, why is he not here to-night to take advantage of the opportunity in which he might, as Leader of the Party, have stated his opposition to the Bill? My hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the County of Cork (Colonel Colthurst) has suggested that it is possible the hon. Gentleman is finishing his studies in the art of Constitutional agitation at the feet of the Gamaliel of La Lantene, in Paris. The hon. Member who spoke last but one (Mr. Dawson) said that religious considerations ought not to have been introduced into this matter. Sir, I have nothing to do with the religious considerations of this question. The question which is raised by the people who openly and avowedly ally themselves with men like M. Rochefort is not a religious question, but a question which goes to the foundation of society. They are alliances with men who have been convicted as members of the Commune, and who, whether justly or not, wore so convicted at all events. If I remember rightly, M. Rochefort was the man who recommended the burning of the house of M. Thiers. How, then, talk about "religious considerations" when the public mind was scandalized by transactions of this character? The hon. Member for Longford, in a goodhumoured way, alluded to some remarks which I made the other night, and he said—"Oh, the Homo Secretary is very much frightened by letters that he reads in American newspapers. What have letters in American newspapers to do with these matters? How are we responsible for statements of that kind; and what has the present state of Ire-

    1695
    land or this Bill to do with those assertions to which the Home Secretary referred?" Now, I will endeavour to explain to the hon. Member for Longford how I think the matter has a very pertinent bearing upon this Bill. I quoted some observations from a paper which I had not with mo then, but which I have with me now, by a person of the name of Devoy, and the hon. Member for Longford says—"What have we to do with the sentiments of Mr. Devoy?" Now, I will tell the hon. Member for Longford, who has informed us that he is himself only a recent member of the Land League. But perhaps I know a little more of the history of the Land League than the hon. Member for Longford; and I would like to explain to him who and what Mr. Devoy is, and why I referred to his sentiments as having a very material bearing on that question. Now, I find that in May last year, not 12 months ago, a Land League was established in America, very much on the principle of what in our military system we call "linked battalions." And who founded that Land League in America? It was founded by the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. Darnell). I have in my hand a newspaper of the 7th of May, containing a report of a meeting for the foundation of the American-Irish Land League, and upon that occasion there was present, amongst other people, Mr. Devoy. The report of the meeting of this provisional committee says that—
    "After a thorough discussion, it was decided that an Irish Land League should he formed in the United States for the purpose of rendering moral and financial aid to the Irish National Land League in Ireland."
    [Home Rule cheers.] Yes; and now I am going to explain to the House what is the moral aid which they offered to the Irish National Land League. What the financial aid is we know. I saw in the papers this morning that the Irish Land League had at its last meeting announced, I think, £1,300 odd of subscriptions, of which £300 was gathered in Ireland and £1,000 by this organization in America. Now, it is very material to show the House that this is very pertinent to the point I alluded to, and to which I am going to allude again. Now, this Committee held several meetings, and at the final meeting the names of the gentlemen
    1696
    suggested by Mr. Parnell were unanimously selected as a provisional Central Council of the Irish Land League of the United States, and one of the principal members was Mr. Devoy. That is the origin of this American Land League. [Mr. A. M. SULLIVAN: Who suggested Mr. Devoy's name?] Well, I think I will show you presently, if you allow me to go on. The provisional Council having been so established, they proceeded to assemble in convention, and then there are mentioned many of the leading members who took part in the proceeding, one of those leading members being Mr. John Dillon, Member for Tipperary. Next to him comes Mr. John Devoy, and Mr. John Devoy called upon Mr. Dillon for a speech, so that Mr. John Devoy is one of the leading partizans in this affair, and thereupon Michael Davitt arrived in a Cunard steamer, and appears upon the scene. Therefore, we have the Irish-American Land League, founded under the auspices of the well - known names of Parnell, Dillon, Davitt, and Devoy, and hero they are all in action together on this occasion. And here I come to another meeting on the next day on this subject, and Mr. Michael Davitt, the originator of the Land League in Ireland, entered the hall and was greeted with "enthusiastic applause," and then Mr. John Devoy got up and proposed a central treasurer. I just read this for the purpose of showing what the Irish - American Land League is—that it is an affiliated society, acting under auspices formed by the same people, working together from that time to this with the Land League in Ireland, whose like sucking doves here, holding very different language in a country where the law cannot roach them for offences of this character, Now, I say that the language of the American Land League is the language, therefore, of recognized and authorized allies. It is a very different language, it is true, to what is held here. Objects are avowed by the Irish Land League of America which are secretly practised in favour of the Irish Land League here. Of course, some objects are not avowed — it would not be safe to avow them. There is in these matters an exoteric and an esoteric language. The exoteric is the language of America, and the esoteric is the language

    1697
    used in this country. They are very different; but I very much fancy that they mean exactly the same thing. I have shown you, at all events, that when I referred to the language of Mr. Devoy the other day, I was not referring to the language of a man with whom the Land League in Ireland or America can say it had nothing to do, Now, I should like very much to give the House chapter and verse, as they might think that my memory was defective, and that I had exaggerated what was the character of the speeches made by this affiliated and recognized body, of whom the leading members of the Irish Land League were the founders; and until I am corrected by authority, by somebody who says that the Irish Land League repudiates the American Land League—until they will get up here and say they repudiate that body from whom week by week they receive this money and these subsidies—and I may say they are entitled to repudiate the language of the leaders of that body—until they do so I consider myself entitled to read the language of the leading members of the American Land League. And here it is, and it is headed—"What John Devoy says"— Irish National Land League, It goes on—
    "The usual meeting of this branch of the Land League was held in their hall, January 10."
    That is of this year. I will not read the whole report, but one of the speeches.
    "Mr. John Devoy entered the hall, and was received with marked applause."
    Then he says, speaking of the passage of this Act,—
    "It is then that the people, goaded into frenzy by studied injustice, may rise against some constituted authority. A local eviction, a collision with the soldiers may ensue, and our people be shot down in multitudes."
    That language might be applauded; but the speech goes on—
    "It is here that the office of the American Land League will be called into requisition."
    Now, this is the moral aid for which it was brought into being, and that it was to render to the Irish Land League. The speech continues—
    "Will we, then, stand idly by, and see our people and country devastated, and content ourselves with enthusiastic resolutions and sympathies? Our aid has hitherto given the people
    1698
    the impetus that has brought about this state of things."
    That is the financial aid.
    "Shall we desert them in their hour of peril? No; for every Irishman murdered we will take in reprisal the life of a British Minister."
    Then there is a sort of arithmetical progression.
    "For every 100 Irishmen murdered we will sacrifice the lives of the entire British Minis-try."
    That is 100 lives for 14.
    "For every 200 Irishmen killed we will reduce to ashes the principal city of England. For a wholesale massacre of the Irish people we will make England a smouldering ruin of ashes and blood. The receipts of the Land League are now £100 per day, and that is ample for their wants; but we want a fund which will aid us in carrying out the designs that I have already sketched for you."
    Now, that is what Mr. Devoy says. Mark those words—
    "We want funds here that will aid us in carrying out the design that I have already sketched for you."
    I say nothing of the destruction of the Cabinet. That is a very inferior matter, because a Cabinet can be replaced; but when you have destroyed a powerful city it is not so easy to replace that. That is the design sketched out by the leaders of the American Land League, for which they want funds. I said something the other day about the Skirmishing Fund. I know a great deal about that Fund—a good deal more than probably the hon. Member for Longford does. The other night when I mentioned it, the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. Healy) showed that he knew something of it, because he said that the Skirmishing Fund had ceased to exist, or at least had become respectable in its character. In the first place, it has not ceased to exist. It is this Fund that is here referred to, the Fund for carrying out the objects which Mr. Devoy has sketched. That is the Fund that is being subscribed for by those people in America. In another part of this same paper a reference is made to the Skirmishing Fund. The hon. Member for Cork City calls the affair at Salford a practical joke. Yes, Sir; it is for practical jokes of this kind that this Skirmishing Fund which Devoy and others collect is employed, for it is so avowed and boasted in those papers; and it is said—

    1699
    "Subscribe to the Skirmishing' Fund; it is worth your while; you see you are having your money's worth; you have had the affair at Pal-ford for it."
    A letter in this paper, dated London, reads as follows:—
    "Look at those paragraphs from the London morning papers. The fire which destroyed the Edinburgh County Militia Barracks was purely accidental. In the House of Commons last night, in reply to a Question, Mr. Childers said the Government were well aware of the circumstances in which they were placed and were taking all proper precautions. That shows me that someone is striking- our enemy with the Skirmishing Fund. Enclosed find my second monthly subscription of one dollar.—Patrick O'Connor, Broadford, Clare."
    Then a reference is made to the precautions taken with regard to Volunteer arms, and the comment upon that is "All right." What does that mean, but that this Fund is subscribed for these very objects, and is used for these objects? Men like Devoy have their emissaries, both in England and Ireland, who are held down only by the strong hand of the law. Let us tear off the mask of this conspiracy and unveil its secrets, so that the country may understand what is the character of the conspiracy which they have to face. It was on the 16th of January that Mr. Devoy's speech was made. On the same day there was a speech made in Ireland —not in the same language, not quite so frank in its avowal; but it referred to future contingencies. It said—
    "If your patience becomes exhausted by Government brutality, and every right, privilege, and hope which is your God-given inheritance be trampled down by vindictive power, the world will hold England, and not you, responsible if the wolf-dog of Irish vengeance bounds over the Atlantic."
    That is from the speech of Michael Davitt, made on the same day as the speech of Mr. Devoy. What was the meaning of the "wolf-dog bounding across the Atlantic?" Did "wolf-dogs in America" mean men like Devoy and others, who were holding that language, and who were collecting money for the purposes which were there described? Or else what was the meaning of the statement that the wolf-dog would bound over the Atlantic in vengeance? The hon. Member for Longford says I have gone over to America for the illustration, and so I have; but I ask under these circumstances, when you find these
    1700
    affiliated associations playing into one another's hands; when you find the American Land League sending its money to the Irish Land League; when you find the identical language of horrible and atrocious menace being held by men on both sides of the Atlantic at the same time—I ask you whether I have not a right to look at this, and whether I have not a right to ask this House for protection to society against such transactions and such language as this? I could—but I will not weary the House by reading language even more atrocious than that to which I have referred —I could refer the House to the language of a man of the name of Redpath, who made a speech.
    MR. A. M. SULLIVAN: An Englishman?
    Other hon. MEMBERS: A born American.
    SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: An American. Very well, the hon. and learned Member will be able to tell me whether he approves his language or not. Mr. Redpath says—
    "Many of you may think me prejudiced when I say that the Scotch Presbyterians are superior to you; but when they were oppressed by landlords they shot them down like rabbits. About 30 years ago there were more landlords shot than rabbits. I think that was perfectly legitimate, seeing that the landlords were only beasts of prey."
    Does the hon. Member for Cavan approve of that language? [Mr. BIGGAR: Ask the Scotch Members.] Then he goes on to say—
    "In Catholic Mayo, where a Protestant cannot be found now-a-days, a minister represents them in Parliament, and a Protestant—Charles Stewart Parncll—is their leader. I must say right there that Irishmen are cowards."
    He could not be an Irishman if he said that.
    "Now you will like to know why I say they are cowards," he said—"Why I don't like them to apologize for the shooting of landlords." And then—this is the account of the meeting—"at the close of the speaker's remarks, Mrs. Parnell, the mother of the great agitator, was loudly called for, and received a perfect ovation when she appeared. She spoke for upwards of 20 minutes, and gave a brief review of the work of the Land League."
    So you see that the language of the Land League in America, affiliated with the Land League in Ireland, is, perhaps, of a rather more highly coloured character than that which we have heard to-

    1701
    night, or even at the meetings of the Land League in Ireland. Gentlemen on the opposite side say they do not know about Mr. Redpath. Unless I am mistaken, he was a very active agent of the Land League in Ireland. That only shows that the parties are interchangeable, and that we may expect visits any day from the gentlemen who make the speeches in America, and who may come over to Ireland. This Bill is intended for these gentlemen should they come over. It is intended also for the emissaries whom they subsidize and pay here. It is intended for the men whom they secretly hire to commit assassination, incendiarism, and outrage. It is against men who are the enemies of all society—against men who, whether connected with the American Land League, the Irish Land League, or any other party, use such language and avow such objects. The Bill does give extraordinary powers. It gives extraordinary powers in order to save society from atrocious crime; and, if there be men who entertain such sentiments as those I have read to this House, it is the duty of this House, it is the duty of this Government, and it is the duty of this nation to stamp upon them as they would upon a nest of vipers.
    MR. A. M. SULLIVANsaid, the Bill had been for six weeks before the House; and, judging from the conduct of the Government in those weeks, it was clear that if it should be before them for six weeks longer the Government would show as many more changes of front. The latest excuse for the Bill had just been heard from the Home Secretary, an excuse which was quite irreconcilable with the nine or ten which had preceded it. At first it was said to be impossible to procure evidence of acts committed in Ireland in the night-time by village ruffians, whom the police could not see in the darkness, and on whom their confederates would not inform. The First Lord of the Treasury, however, with melodramatic voice and gesture, broached a new theory, and told the House, pointing to the Benches occupied by his Colleagues, that the Government knew the men whose actions rendered the Bill necessary. The right hon. Gentleman said it was a singular fact that as they held meetings their footsteps were dogged with crime, and that as the meetings were held, in the same week agrarian
    1702
    crimes increased. In that month, however, there were Cabinet meetings hold, and he contended it was also equally a fact—though whether they traced the connection was another thing—that the meetings of the Cabinet had been attended with an increase in agrarian crime. He referred to this fact because prominent English politicians, once Ministers of the Crown, on the responsibility of their public character had perceived, or pretended to perceive, the same concurrence between the Cabinet meetings and agrarian outrages. He called upon Mr. James Lowther to bear witness to that fact. The Prime Minister discredited the Chief Secretary's story; but then they had a fresh excuse. Throwing off the mask of kindliness, the Chief Secretary avowed that he wanted the men who published certain newspapers in Ireland brought before him. But was it not preposterous and ridiculous that a man should be sent to prison on suspicion of publishing a newspaper? That night the Government had come to the conclusion that all their shifty stratagems and miserable inconsistencies were discredited in the minds of the people, and they had, therefore, put up the Home Secretary with a new story, in the background of which there stood a monster named John Devoy. The right hon. Gentleman closed his speech with a defence of religion and society, as a pious friend of Church and State, trembling lest any British politician should have lot or part with Continental Revolutionists. This was a startling retrocession for the Liberal Party. Who were the friends of Mazzini? Did the right hon. Gentleman never hear of Lord Ellen-borough, who called for 1,000,000 muskets to put into the hands of the carbonari of Italy? Or of the part Earl Russell played on behalf of the Revolutionists of Europe in his day? Once these extreme Radicals got off the Treasury Bench, and the hated Tories were there, how they would thunder against Continental despots, and bless the new Mazzinis and Rocheforts. It did not lie on the lips of those who feted Garibaldi to reproach anyone for communing with Garibaldi's colleague. Were hon. Members opposite ashamed of their sympathy with Garibaldi? [Cheers.] Then this was only one further instance of the Treasury Bench not representing the views of its supporters. With regard to the story

    1703
    of Mr. John Devoy and the Skirmishing Fund, he contended that the Government had known of the existence of this Fund for the past five years. This Fund had been collected in New York for the purpose, amongst other awful things, of purchasing some chemical compound which was to be thrown upon the floor of the House with the intent of destroying all the Members before they had time to escape. The former Home Secretary had known all about that Fund, and its pretended object; but he had not come down to the House, and endeavoured to terrify hon. Members with that story, although he was as severe a man, and as loyal to his Sovereign as the present Home Secretary. There were men in Ireland who had hoard it all. Her Majesty's Minister at Washington heard it all, and the responsible Ministers of the Crown in England and Ireland know of it. What view did they take of it? They laughed at it as sensible men in Ireland did. What did Her Majesty's Ministers do during the years that this Skirmishing Fund was being collected? Nothing. They took the view of it that was taken by the people of Ireland—that it would be unworthy of a great Power like England to say that the machinations of these men were putting the Crown into such danger as to warrant a Minister of the Crown to come to the House and gravely make a proposal on the subject. It would be long remembered with deep regret by many Gentlemen sitting on the Ministerial side of the House that that which a Tory Ministry had deemed unworthy of notice should have been reserved by the Radical Ministry as a pretence for an attack upon the liberties of the Irish people. If Ireland was to be scourged for the offences, real or imaginary, of a few such men as John Devoy in America, it would be well that the fact should be known as widely as possible. It was English misgovernment which had manufactured this combustible material which was stored in America. When Irish landlords were clearing their estates, and making outcasts of thousands, Irish Members told the House that those men were going to America with hearts burning with hatred of English misgovernment, and that the English Government had not heard the last of them. The Times: said they were going with a vengeance; but those who knew the
    1704
    facts knew that the removal of those men from the soil of Ireland was not a benefit, but would be a future peril to England. The records in Hansard's volumes told them that in 18G2, 1863, 1864, and 1865 the Irish Members were scoffed down by an impatient House when they attempted to give a warning of the result of what was going on, telling the House, in the language of one of themselves, whose sincerity, however, was very much doubted now—"Force is no remedy." "Force is no remedy," said this Minister of Her Majesty's Government; and yet ho came hot foot from Birmingham to pass a Coercion Bill. That force was no remedy they had often been told by John Francis Maguire, Patrick McMahon, and George Henry Moore; but those hon. Members were treated as madmen, and scoffed at by the Treasury Bench. The Home Secretary told them that John Devoy had published a letter in which he stated that for every one of his friends arrested a Minister of the Crown should be assassinated. Did the right hon. and learned Gentleman himself feel in danger of being assassinated? Certainly not. He laughed to scorn the threat of the assassin. He thanked the right hon. and learned Gentleman for the assurance given by his gentle gesture, indicating that he did not. Did the right hon. and learned Gentleman, then, wish the House to believe that he was in danger of being assassinated, while, in his own mind, he was not in the least degree frightened? Was it the Chief Secretary who was alarmed at the idea of a bloody uprising? No; the Chief Secretary had a John Devoy under his hand in Ireland, and had extended to him his protection, shelter, and connivance. Assassination was recommended in other quarters by way of a political reprisal. He held in his hand a statement, not by John Devoy, but by a friend of the Chief Secretary. He could not give to it the artistic touches which the Home Secretary gave to the utterances of John Devoy; but the speaker, a Protestant clergyman, addressing a public meeting attended by many thousands of persons in the North of Ireland, stated that—
    "He saw some police present, and he was glad to see them, and hoped they would take a note of every word he was going to say. Let them organize among themselves a Protestant National Society, like the Protection Society; and for every Protestant shot in cold blood let the

    1705
    priest of the parish and the Homo Rule Member be assassinated also."
    He (Mr. Sullivan) wished to know, before he read further, in what school of religious thought he was to find the distinction between the assassination of a Minister of the Crown and the assassination of a Roman Catholic priest— in what school of religious and political morality he was to find a distinction between shooting the Chief Secretary and murdering the Homo Rule Members for an Irish constituency? This abominable language was used in October last, and the appeal which was made to the Government to take notice of it was made in vain. He believed the House would agree with him in this, at all events, although they might differ from him in everything else—that if there was anything more hateful than a political war it was a religious war. Hateful it was when they took, in civil war, to slaughter one another; but there had not been in the world crimes more deep or black than the war and bloodshed which had stained Europe in the name of religion. When, then, he saw this attempt to light up in Ireland, among the excitable people of that country, the flames of a hateful religious war, he could not too strongly denounce it. For every three priests shot in Ireland there might have been six Protestant clergymen assassinated; and thus this devilish work of retaliation would go on. Feeling this, an appeal was made to the Chief Secretary whether this public incentive to assassination was to pass unpunished. What official notice was taken of the appeal? None. What was dreadful in John Devoy was connived at in the case of this Protestant clergyman. To the honour of that distinguished Ecclesiastic, the Protestant Bishop of Down, he did what the Chief Secretary would not do. He took notice of this unpunishable incentive to murder, and he called on the clergyman to retract; but the man shuffled and declined, and said he would retract the language as towards the Bishop, but not as towards anybody else. The last letter of the Bishop did him honour as an Ecclesiastic and a Churchman, and he (Mr. Sullivan) thanked him for it. The right rev. Prelate had declared to this minister that ho strongly condemned the manner in which he had held out the cowardly incentive of shooting innocent persons. This Protestant clergy-
    1706
    man went further, and pointed out that it would be unfair to shoot only one priest in reprisal, adding that surely the life of one Protestant was worth that of five Romish priests. On this occasion, the ravings of John Devoy had been trotted out and paraded to the House in order to terrify them into passing a Coercion Bill. The Chief Secretary knew that he (Mr. Sullivan) was no advocate of assassination. He had only referred to the case of the Protestant clergyman because the Government had refused to have him punished, and because his language might produce most deplorable mischief in Ireland. But the Chief Secretary condoned the outrage, and had only taken steps to direct a prosecution against certain Members of the House of Commons, and had narrowly escaped having an acquittal flung at his head by the disagreement of the jury. Someone had attempted to excuse the Protestant clergyman by saying that the words were used in the heat of a public meeting. But the man himself said—
    "Allow me to say the words were not uttered on the impulse of the moment, hut deliberately and advisedly."
    It was a direct challenge to the Irish Government. Why had they not taken it up? After such language from a Protestant clergyman, what became of the raw head and bloody bones of John Devoy? In America the Land League movement seemed to have been projected by his hon. Friend the Member for Cork City (Mr. Parnell) entirely on his own design. He (Mr. Sullivan) was not consulted about it. His hon. Friend usually took his own course, although he (Mr. Sullivan) could have told him that his eclectic idea of gathering in America the men of extreme views, the men of moderate views, and the men of loss moderate views, as patriots in one common Party, was impracticable and dangerous. He was only acquainted with what his hon. Friend had done in America from the public Press. He had never, either by letter or speech, communicated with his hon. Friend upon the subject; but he presumed that ho had entertained the idea of bringing individuals in America who had originated the Skirmishing Fund by Constitutional methods to the support of the Land League in Ireland, and certainly with no idea of resorting to reprisals in the fashion of the Rev. Mr. Kane. The right hon. and learned

    1707
    Gentleman the Home Secretary did not tell the House that for one of the men of this stamp in America there were seven who repudiated the doctrines of Mr. John Devoy, Mr. Stephens, and other extreme men in that country; but as John Devoy had been unconverted by the present Land Leaguers, be chose to fall back upon his original idea, now five years old, of laying London in ashes. He would pass from this story of Devoy, only regretting that a responsible Minister of the Crown should have lent himself to such a use of it. And, now, with these observations, his (Mr. Sullivan's) last word would have been said in regard to this weary Coercion Bill debate. He recalled with some satisfaction that in the first words he uttered upon this painful subject he foresaw what was about to happen, and he had said that while yet he could speak calmly, and before they had entered into a combat, in which friendships would be sundered, he wished to pay a tribute to the motives which, he had no doubt, would animate many hon. Members who would steadily vote against him and his country in these divisions. To-night, looking back upon all the period which had been spent in such fierce contention, he claimed to have done his duty by his country, and by the people who had sent him there. From the first hour in which he saw the character of this Coercion Bill—from the first moment he found that Her Majesty's Government did not intend to accompany it by their measure of redress—he decided, although not without some pangs, but yet with firmness, that ho must sacrifice everything in that House in order to resist the passing of the Bill. If he had obtained, in no matter how small a degree, he would not say a position, but some place in the kindly indulgence of the House, ho knew he was about to forfeit it. If he had, among hon. Gentlemen opposite, as he then had, political and personal friends, friendships which be had formed during the six years he had been a Member of the House, he knew that he was about to be separated from them. But ho had never wavered for a moment. He could not "hold with the hare and hunt with the hounds." Painful as it might have been to him to oppose a Ministry which came into power with the best wishes of his heart; believing, as he did, that they were likely
    1708
    to do much good for Ireland as well as for England; he felt that he must do his duty, disregarding all consequences. But this he would say, that if the Government, when it brought in a Coercion Bill, bad put an Irish Land Bill on the Table, instead of introducing their measure of coercion without a word of justification or explanation in connection with remedial measures, or even allowing the Irish people to guess what the measure of relief was to be, they would have done something to have broken the shock of this legislation. But instead of laying their Land Bill on the Table, they called upon the people of Ireland first to kneel and strip their backs to the scourge, and then wait patiently until the Ministry, in their pleasure, would tell them what they intended to bestow. It was this fatal and disastrous error of the Government that had induced him to assume the attitude he had taken in all these divisions; and he had told his comrades, who had often blamed him for what they considered the too great moderation in which he spoke of the shortcomings of the Government, that in this fight he would always be found in the forefront, resisting, with all his power, the passing of the Bill. He thanked the House for having listened to those words of explanation, and for having afforded him an opportunity of reviewing all that had passed in the course of this struggle. If in any of those scenes he had said anything that had transgressed the bounds of legitimate conflict he was sorry for it; but for Ireland he felt that he had only done his duty. He believed that the six weeks of respite they had had would have broken the shock of this legislation, and that while, if they liked, the wicked might have fled, at all events, the country had bad time to measure, not in panic and alarm, the character of the present measure. His most ardent hope and desire was that the breathing-time which their determined stand had secured would enable Irishmen to see that, by keeping within the lines of Constitutional action, they might trust firmly to such protection as their Representatives in that House might be enabled to command, and that, if necessary, they were prepared to dare even the perils of the prison, as their fathers had done before them, in the defence of their country's liberties.
    MR. HOPWOODsaid, he did not yield to his hon. and learned Friend the Member for Meath (Mr. A. M. Sullivan) in passionate feeling for the welfare of Ireland. ["Oh!"from the Home Rule Benches.] He was quite content that unbelievers should express their aversion to this statement, and, in making it, he only intended to use it as a foundation for the few remarks he desired to offer to the House. He looked upon his hon. and learned Friend as a fair type of the Irish Members, with whom he should like to hold commune, and with whom he should like to agree in concerting measures for the good of Ireland. He took his hon. and learned Friend as a type, and he looked upon him as a man feeling the necessities of his position and knowing the difficulties by which he was surrounded. He took this test as applied to the action of his hon. and learned Friend in the matter—that there was no man who would with more indignant scorn denounce the acts in Ireland of the men against whom this Act would be directed when it became law. There was no man more capable, in point of generous feeling, of denouncing that action; and yet what was the attitude of his hon. and learned Friend? He said—"You should not pass a law to restrain men from committing these acts." "Why did his hon. and learned Friend feel bound to say so? Because of the difficult position in which he was placed by the Party with whom he was acting. It had been the most painful hour of his (Mr. Hopwood's) short political existence to have been brought to this extremity, that he felt himself bound to assist in the passing of a Coercion Pill for Ireland, and to appear to be a defender of those who had undoubtedly exercised their rights with harshness and severity. But he could not deny that acts had been committed in Ireland which Englishmen were bound to put an end to, and for which Irishmen must be punished. His hon. and learned Friend could not deny that. Anyone who listened throughout to the candid speech of his hon. and learned Friend, and to the forensic skill with which he sought to parry the attacks of the Homo Secretary, would find in it, from first to last, not the slightest attempt to deny that there had been acts done in Ireland, and clone in large numbers of instances,
    1710
    in regard to which his hon. and learned Friend was ashamed — [Mr. BIGGAR: No, no!]—which he had denounced, and of which, at the present moment it seemed, the hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar) was the only defender. If that were so—[Mr. BIGGAR: There is more crime in England.]—that plea had been constantly urged, and he would examine it. "There are not so many cases of crime as in England," said the hon. Member. Quito true; but there were not so many people in Ireland as in this country. No one had ever sought to compare the existence of ordinary crime in the two countries, either in total or even in average. The real question was, whether in Ireland, in regard to which hon. Members opposite asserted, and he believed with truth, that it was the least prone naturally to crime—the real question was, whether in Ireland there was not an extensive and unnatural crop of the particular crimes against which this Act was levelled? That was the only real comparison that could be drawn, and the only true test. He defied any Irishman to deny that he was ashamed of the state of things existing in Ireland. These exceptional crimes were committed in very large numbers, and Englishmen were obliged, with drooping heads and, in some degree, with shamed faces, to retrace their steps in political progress, in order to provide a remedy. That they had found a remedy his hon. and learned Friend candidly admitted; for the rats, the scoundrels, and the ruffians were leaving the country. The very presage and warning given by this Act had driven them out, and he was sure there were hon. Members on the Home Pule Benches who were as glad they were going as hon. Members wore on that (the Liberal) side of the House. Certainly, he (Mr. Hopwood) personally was glad. At the same time, he was sorry that during these debates—and they had been many, although he had listened to them patiently, and had heard from some quarters a defence of the proceedings which had taken place— he had but too seldom heard the same generous denunciation of these Acts which had been just made by his hon. and learned Friend. If a different course had been taken, he was persuaded that there were many on his side of the House who might have been converted. But they had heard, even

    1711
    when murders had been spoken of, hon. Gentlemen opposite, he believed thoughtlessly, and not with inveterate hatred or a cruel heart, laugh and jeer. He should have thought that the ordinary promptings of humanity would have prevented any hon. Member from manifesting a desire to palliate such dreadful outrages, by setting them at naught, and making a laughing matter of them. His hon. and learned. Friend found fault with the Home Secretary, because he read certain passages from the speeches of a Mr. Dovoy. His hon. and learned Friend said—"You have a minister of religion among you—a Mr. Kane—who is quite as bad." He (Mr. Hopwood) admitted that Mr. Kane's vapourings were atrocious; but ho did not hear his hon. and learned Friend say that the speeches of Mr. Devoy were similarly atrocious. On the contrary, he understood him to argue that both were equally defensible. [Mr. A. M. SULLIVAN: I said that both wore to me abhorrent.] If his hon. and learned Friend had omitted to do so he should not have pressed him too hardly upon the matter, for he was sure he (Mr. A. M. Sullivan) would not desire to characterize those utterances by any other language. The hon. and learned Member asked why Mr. Kane was not punished. He was a lawyer—would he say under what law he could have been punished? [An hon. MEMBER: Under this Act—for sedition.] Perhaps Mr. Kane might be dealt with under this Act; but, in regard to the question he had just put, he know that his hon. and learned Friend could not answer him. The vapourings of a madman—of a wicked madman if they would—unless they took the form of a positive act— unless they suggested something beyond mere rant—in fact, the ground work of conspiracy—were difficult to reach by the law. Our laws had been exceedingly tolerant, and he had no wish to see them made more stringent, and if he was supporting this one, it was only on special considerations suggested by the exceptional condition of Ireland. But Mr. Devoy was in a very different position from Mr. Kane. This Skirmishing Fund, referred to by the Home Secretary, his hon. and learned Friend (Mr. A. M. Sullivan) told them had been in existence five years, and yet now it seemed that the Land League, a now
    1712
    society, was seeking to graft itself upon it. ["No!"] He was glad to find that there was a sufficiently spirited feeling among some of those who represented the Land League to repudiate the suggestion. Let it go then to America and to all parts of the world, that in this British House of Commons the representatives of the Land League repudiated the agitation got up in America for conveying funds across the Atlantic to subsidize and fee persons engaged in the dissemination of these abominable doctrines. Ho was sure that his hon. and learned Friend could not fail to see that the recognition of Mr. Devoy was connected with the evidence of a widespread conspiracy proceeding from America, to disturb our laws, of which the reflex action and the echo were found in this House, which, as a deliberative Institution, was being utterly destroyed by the acts and the bearing of a small minority. His hon. and learned Friend had referred to Garibaldi and others. He was sure that when such a name was mentioned, it was only for forensic effect, and that the hon. and learned Member really, with his whole heart, despised the argument he sought to deduce. If there was any man in that House who had sympathy with Garibaldi, and the freedom which ho brought to other nations, surely it was his hon. and learned Friend. [Mr. A. M. SULLIVAN: No, no!] Well, for the purposes of debate, they would admit it was not so. They were, at last, at the end of six weeks, coming to this, that a deliberative Assembly, which, at an earlier period, gave evidence of its feelings and conviction, had now been slowly allowed to arrive at the last stage which was necessary before it could place those feelings and convictions under the sanction of the law. Hon. Members opposite had continually delayed, deferred, and resisted this measure; and, with all respect for them, he must take this opportunity of protesting against their action. ["Oh!"] It might be a very small matter what ho thought. He knew it, and he bowed to it; but he was bound to say that there were a great many persons who thought like him, and who deprecated the small policy of this headless Party, the head of which was sometimes somewhere and sometimes nowhere, and seldom in his place. With that policy, his hon. and

    1713
    learned Friend did not disguise that he had frequently been out of harmony'; he had not been always able to sanction it; and he admitted that it had frequently placed both himself and his Party in the wrong. He (Mr. Hopwood) thought it might be seen, throughout the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman, that he had been frequently obliged, in some degree, to disengage himself from his Party. [Mr. A. M. SULLIVAN: I said nothing of the kind.] He would remind the hon. and learned Gentleman of what he had said. He had said something of his moderation in receiving the adverse criticism of those about him, and had mentioned matters in which his conduct had not received the approval of his Friends. But he (Mr. Hopwood) only knew this, that oven the errors of the Land League were never mentioned by those who were supporters of it. He knew that many able men, equally with his hon. and learned Friend, had disengaged themselves from its policy, and had only—and here he recognized the generous impulse of the hon. and learned Member—thrown themselves in with the lot of the Party when they felt that there would be an imputation of cowardice upon them if they did not share the imminent ruin or the mischiefs which might impend. In considering the observations of his hon. and learned Friend thus critically—and he thought he understood him—he was entitled to take the absence of his approval of the policy pursued by the Land League as the strongest argument he could use for its repression. In parting with this Bill, he felt that there were many things which were mournful about it. He himself, and all of them, would gladly have done something to soften parts of the measure, had not the power been taken from them; and that statement he would put forward anywhere, before an English or an Irish audience. He would put it before even the most unfavourable specimen of an Irish audience he ever could meet with —and that was to be met with in that House. In saying this, he did not wish hon. Gentlemen opposite to suppose that he meant anything personal. He only meant that as far as the poles were asunder, so far was his opinion, he supposed, from that of hon. Members opposite at this moment. He
    1714
    hoped and believed that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary would administer this law with mercy. He trusted that they all, wherever they sat —whether above or below the Gangway, on his own or the opposite side of the House—would deprecate any exhibition of harshness in the treatment of unfortunate men who might be driven into prison by the acts of others, or through the misguided advice that might be tendered to them, or the promptings they might receive from America or elsewhere. The right hon. Gentleman, he hoped, would make the Bill a terror to evil-doers, and would do what he could to put down those who incited others to do wrong, those who wrote inciting articles of a cruel and wicked kind, and those who came over from America to disturb the peace and to disturb our institutions with utter recklessness as to the safety of the lives and fortunes of those who lived in Ireland. The course and aim of all in that House had been to vindicate the institutions of the Kingdom which had been so rudely assailed.
    MR. JESSE COLLINGSsaid, that from the speech of the hon. and learned Member who had just sat down one might suppose that the House was to be guided on this question, not by the conduct of the 5,500,000 of the Irish men and women, but by the conduct of the Irish Members and the American agitators. The hon. and learned Member only considered the policy of hon. Members opposite, and not the deserts, the wants, and requirements of the Irish people. There was one thing of which he wished to remind the House, of which, indeed, he might remind almost everybody who had spoken on the question in the House. They had heard a great deal about crime and outrage; but he did not think they had heard one single word about the tyranny the tenant farmers had been subjected to—the cause of all agrarian crime. From the Front Bench they had not heard one word of sympathy for the people of Ireland. He remembered that a few months ago, when the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary was bringing in the Compensation for Disturbance Bill, their feelings were harrowed by a description of the sufferings of the poor tenantry for whom protection was being sought. If he (Mr. Collings) protested against the present Bill, it was because the measure pro-

    1715
    tected the lives and property of the strong, but left out of account altogether the lives and property of the most numerous and most helpless. Hon. Members spoke of a panic, and no doubt there was a panic in this country — an anti-Irish panic. He remembered the gladness with which they had hailed the remedial legislation—the unsuccessful, but yet the attempted remedial legislation—of last Session. They had rejoiced to think that there existed in the Liberal Government a faith in the true power of Liberalism to do justice, and to put down agitation and disorder by removing the cause of agitation and disorder. He confessed that when he heard the Chief Secretary was visiting Ireland last year he had expressed some misgivings, because he knew that visiting Ireland did not mean visiting the 600,000 tenants, the 200,000 small poor tenants, but it meant visiting Dublin Castle. He was afraid that there the right hon. Gentleman became giddy, and they were told that "to those who are giddy all the world goes round." This visit to Dublin Castle was, no doubt, the origin of the Chief Secretary's change of policy. He (Mr. Collings) could have forgiven, or, at any rate, he could have looked with some consolation upon this Coercion Bill, if the protection which the poor peasantry required had accompanied it. He could not help repeating to the right hon. Gentleman a question which had been asked over and over again without eliciting any reply—namely, what was to become of the poor inhabitants of Ireland for whom the right hon. Gentleman offered up such words of sympathy a few months ago? The Chief Secretary—whom he did not wish to misquote—had said in words which did him honour—
    "If you do not pass this remedial measure, I fear that the forces of this great Empire will be employed for doing an injustice to the poor cottier tenants of Ireland."
    Well, the Bill did not pass, and the necessity for it which existed then would, when this coercive measure became law, be intensified tenfold. The fear of the right hon. Gentleman would be realized, and the forces of this great Empire would be employed in doing injustice to the cottier tenants of Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman should answer and toll them what the lot of those men for whom he had pleaded would be in the interval between now and the time—if
    1716
    ever it came—of the passing of the remedial measures. The Chief Secretary seemed, in his change of policy, to be determined to throw over the weak in the effort to protect the strong. The landlords had again won in Ireland, as they had won often before in the history of that unhappy country. He should be glad, and he had no doubt many Liberals in the House and many thousands of them outside would be glad, when they heard the last of this Bill, for there was an amount of shame attached to it—in the first place, that it should have been brought forward at all; but doubly because it had been promoted without that measure of protection which they had been told was so absolutely necessary in Ireland. Six months ago the present Government were looked upon in Ireland as saviours, and the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister was spoken of in every cottage as "that good man;" but now the state of things was such that every Liberal must deplore. The result of the action of the Government was this, that there would never be another Liberal returned there. The action of Her Majesty's Ministers had succeeded—no doubt, somewhat unjustly—in representing the Government as being in opposition to the interests of Ireland, whereas he firmly believed that no Government could be more kindly disposed towards the country. But they saw what the result of a blunder had been. He welcomed heartily the end of this business, and the sooner it could be forgotten and become a dead letter the better. If the Chief Secretary had continued the remedial policy which he inaugurated some months ago, even though he had accompanied it with coercion, by this time every disorder would have been settled in Ireland, and the Government might have been most popular in every cottage. [Anhon. MEMBER: So they are.] He did not think their popularity was shown in a very sat is factory manner. But if remedial measures had been proposed on the assembling of Parliament, from every house and every cottage in Ireland would have gone up blessings on the Government, and they would have appeared in the light of dispensers of that peace and contentment which they desired to secure. He simply had to make his protest against this Bill. The measure showed a change of policy,

    1717
    not on the part of the Liberal Party, but on the part of the Government. It was a useless Bill, and would prove disastrous in its effects on the Irish people; and, moreover, it would take away to a large degree the benefits and the grace and pleasure of conferring those remedial measures which he hoped would soon be laid before the House. There was one other matter to which he wished to refer. The Government did not seem to be quite aware of the extent to which they had strained the allegiance of their followers. He did not believe there had been any heart in this coercion matter at all, and was convinced that the Bill had only been accepted on account of the expectation and the assurance of the Government that there would be an ample remedial measure to follow immediately. Let them hope that this expectation would not be disappointed.
    MR. O'DONNELLconfessed he had enjoyed a rare treat that evening listening to the denunciations levelled at the Irish Party by the hon. and learned Member for Stockport (Mr. Hopwood), and could not help thinking, whilst the hon. and learned Gentleman was making his speech, that he must have changed his constituency as well as his principles. He knew now that, to rally the hon. and learned Member once more to the banners of the Irish Party, there must be a Conservative Government sitting opposite. The hon. and learned Member, who was now so free in his criticism of the Irish ultras, would be glad once more to identify himself with them, and, in season and out of season, to harass and worry for all purposes a Government of his own country, provided that Government was only a Tory one. The hon. and learned Member had indulged in some cheap criticism of the prevalence of acts of evil in Ireland; but could he deny that acts of evil occurred oven amongst the virtuous population of Great Britain? The hon and learned Member said, in a tone of triumph—and he imagined that this was a proof of his argument—"The mischief of the Irish situation is that the acts of evil are all of one description; there is an unnatural crop of crime of one particular order." It would be unnatural, indeed, if there were not a number of crimes of one particular order in Ireland—namely, of the agrarian order; and he ventured to say that, if Great Britain was under
    1718
    a similar system of Land Laws, and the people of Great Britain were solely dependent upon the land, as were the people of Ireland, when wholesale evictions were carried out in conformity with the law, they would not see single assassinations committed by the people of England, but wholesale massacres, ["Question!"] This was the Question; and hon. Gentlemen who sat on the Benches of the Radical Party, and who represented constituencies associated with trades unionism in days before trades unionism learned to purify itself, might recall to their minds deeds of a most horrible character which were committed on very paltry provocation by English working men when laws affecting English working men injured what they considered their just rights. It had also escaped the notice of the hon. and learned Member that the crimes—numerous and great as they were, and to be deplored—committed by the Irish masses under terrible provocation, were nevertheless inferior even in number to the crimes committed by the landlord class during the last year. After so many seasons of deprivation, when the masses of the Irish people were steeped in poverty, were there not 10,000 men, women, and children cast out from their homes by Irish landlords? He supported the rejection of the third reading of the Bill, because down to the present Her Majesty's Government had dealt in denunciations, and not in proofs. It was perfectly true that Blue Books crammed with outrages had been presented to the House; but it was known that many of those outrages were fictitious, and a large number repetitions. But the most important point to be borne in mind in connection with the case of the opponents of that Bill was that the vast majority of outrages were plainly shown on the face of the Blue Books themselves to have been caused not by illegal agitation, not by any state of affairs amongst the people requiring punishment by repression, but by the misuse of the large powers which the present Land Laws gave to the landlords of Ireland. He had pointed out how in almost every case of a serious character, from one end of Ireland to another, wherever an outrage had been committed by the people an outrage committed by the landlords had preceded it. Everywhere was to be read

    1719
    the monotonous story of the White boy offence of intimidation, or the offence of an assault committed upon some farm from which a tenant had been recently evicted; and in almost every case the suspicions of the constabulary were laid not upon any political agitators, but upon some persons connected by blood and kinship with the evicted family. It was always found that an outrage had first been committed by the landlord, and then revenged, unfortunately, in an illegal manner by the tenant class. The right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had told the House that outrage had dogged the steps of the Land League. He would not repeat what had been so ably said in criticism of that extraordinary argumentation. He had proved, and he could prove again, that in several Irish counties outrages had increased, although the meetings of the Land League had diminished; and whenever he found a distinct increase of outrages he could trace that increase to a cause very different from agitation by the Land League or any other organization. Outrages, including the sending of threatening letters, increased in Ireland at the approach of winter—at the date when the landlords began to press, not only for the rent, but for arrears, which it was absolutely impossible for the tenant to pay. Was it not admitted that these outrages took place in order to intimidate the landlords from evicting, and was it not also proved that the landlords were intimidated from evicting? During the first three quarters of the year which had passed there was but a small number of outrages, and the result was a large number of evictions. It was during the nine months of the year when outrages were very few that threefourths of the evictions perpetrated by the landlords last year took place, and it was not until the people goaded into criminal self-defence — if self-defence were crime—took revenge in outrages, that evictions almost disappeared from Ireland. And yet the Chief Secretary carefully avoided alluding to that fact. Nothing was clearer than that the people abstained from outrage until the landlords drove them to despair by the excessive use of the power of eviction. When 7,000 persons had been evicted in Ireland the increase of outrages took place, and when they increased in num-
    1720
    ber the thousands of evictions sank to scores and dozens. It was the landlords of Ireland who had taught the people the lesson that the only way to restrict evictions was by having recourse to public agitation. But Irish Members sought to teach the people a better lesson. They hoped to give the people remedial legislation, and then there would never be the necessity to intimidate landlords to prevent the exercise of their legal rights. Another explanation of the increase of outrages was that it took place in the most poor and miserable parts of Ireland, and could be seriously shown to be due not to the causes alleged by Her Majesty's Government as the ground for introducing this Bill, but to the excess of poverty which overtook Kerry, Donegal, Sligo, and other famine-stricken districts in the West of Ireland. Donegal was peaceful during the time of distress until the Donegal landlords began last year to put on the screw of eviction; and in Sligo, Mayo, Galway, and Kerry there was remarkable patience and endurance shown until the landlords began to evict, although these districts were the chief seats of the famine. The whole policy of the Government this year was a contradiction of their policy last year. Last year they suggested remedies, and threw the whole of the blame on the landlords; this year they introduced coercion, and became apologists for the eviction of the people. There was no excuse for the passing of this Bill on the ground of agrarian crime. The agrarian crime which had been committed had been distinctly committed under the pressure of individual wrong, and were the rude acts of popular vengeance. The only way to prevent them was the introduction of remedial legislation, which would deprive Irish landlords of the power of committing wrongs in the homes of the people. Conscious of the hollowness of the agrarian pretext, Her Majesty's Government took refuge in the unproved and unprovable existence of political conspiracy. But what argument had they produced in support of their theory of political dangers threatening Ireland? Hon. Members had heard stories of the presence of former Fenian head—centres in such and such capitals of Europe, and the House had been invited to listen with awe to the horror-striking communication, by a Member of the Go-

    1721
    vernment, that Mr. James Stephens had returned to his ordinary occupation and ordinary home in Paris. Such was one main argument of Her Majesty's Government in favour of completing the suppression of political liberty in Ireland. Another was the story of Mr. Devoy's letter. He would not deal with that; but it was notorious there was no incendiary expression to be culled in the columns of American newspapers to-day that could not be found there on any date during the last 15 years, and, therefore, at any time within that period Her Majesty's Government could find quite as strong reasons for suppressing Irish liberty as they were now putting forward. The true explanation, therefore, of the coercive policy of Her Majesty's Government was not to be founded either on the prevalence of agrarian or political crime in Ireland. What Her Majesty's Government wished to strike down was the individual resolution of a number of the Irish people to imitate, at least, the manliness and independence of Englishmen and Scotchmen, who set about righting their wrongs by Constitutional agitation, and by the application of the means in their own hands. It was because the Irish people had declined to act as wretched petitioners to the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland and the other Leaders of the Liberal Party that the Government had turned round and dealt a blow which was meant to be an insult to Irish Nationality. If the Irish people had maintained an attitude of humiliation, if they had come as mendicants and paupers, begging for the commiseration of Her Majesty's Government, there would have been no Coercion Bill. The Bill was meant as a punishment to the Irish people for the assertion of their independence. It was meant to curb and break the spirit of Irish Nationality. In that sense it was offered, and in that sense it was accepted by Irish Members. The hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Jesse Collings) was entitled to their acknowledgments for the kindly speech he had just delivered, in which he had expressed his sincere satisfaction that the end of this painful business was at length appproaching. But he (Mr. O'Donuell) replied that they were only approaching its beginning. The work which Irish Members had been doing in the House for weeks past had
    1722
    been to put off the shameful and evil day of the unchecked rule of liberal despotism in Ireland. They were irritated, but not daunted, by the prospect before them. They felt that Ireland would come out of the trial strengthened in her resolve to abide by her own resources; and, above all, never more to believe in the principles of Liberal policy. They were absolutely indifferent to any legislation the Government might choose to bring in. If they did not choose to do the work, another English Party would, and, probably, do it far better, because they would work under the stimulus of the Land League. It had been the unvarying feature of Liberal Administration in Ireland always so to introduce a reform as to leave a sting behind it. The manner in which they had forced on Coercion, without regard to the numerous protests of the Irish nation, would have the effect of separating the Irish people for ever from the doctrines, promises, and programmes repeated on the Treasury Bench. For the future, after the passing of this Act, the Irish nation would act independently between English Parties; and if it had been made a matter of complaint against them that they had leaned unduly against the Conservative Advisers of Her Majesty, that complaint should never be made again, for they knew now that the Liberal Party was as little deserving of the confidence of Ireland as their Predecessors in Office.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Sexton.)
    Motion agreed to.
    Debate adjourned till To-morrow.

  PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) BILL.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: Sir, I wish to know what has been done with regard to the Notice of Motion as to the introduction of the Peace Preservation Bill for Ireland, and whether there is any Notice renewing it or not?
  LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: It still stands on the Paper. Nothing has been done.
  House adjourned at One o'clock

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—First Reading—Local Taxation Returns (Scotland)* (37).
ARMY ORGANIZATION (LORD AIREY'S COMMITTEE).

  MOTION FOR AN ADDRESS.
  LORD STRATHNAIRN,who had given Notice of a Motion, in rising to move—
  "That an humble Address he presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty that she will he graciously pleased to direct that the Report of the Committee on Army Organization over which Lord Airey presided may be presented to the House at an early day;"
  said, he had intended to move this Re-solution, but since placing it on the Paper he had been informed that he ought to have named a day. Afterwards, however, the War Office had intimated that it was no use naming a day, as the Report could not be presented to Parliament before the Secretary of State for War made his Statement on Monday night in introducing the Army Estimates in the House of Commons. The noble Earl (Earl Granville) informed him the other day that the Report would be laid on the Table on Tuesday. But even for that day, which was too late, he feared that they had a difficulty to contend with. War Office printers did not willingly print observations unfavourable to War Office policy. He spoke from experience. The tactics of the War Office had caused universal regret among those who considered that Parliament had a right to know War Office information respecting military organization on which they had been called to legislate, and on which they must be called again to legislate, as their Lordships would learn from extracts from a letter from Lord Airey of the 20th instant, communicating to him part of his Instructions, dated June 23, 1879, which the noble and gallant Lord then read to the House. He begged now to solicit their Lordships' attention to important facts. First of all, the Members of Lord Airey's Committee
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  were nominated by the Commander-in-Chief, and they were of high standing and experience. Extracts from the Instructions proved that the Committee were not exclusively under the control of the War Office, but that the authority of the War Office was shared with that of the Commander-in-Chief; that the Committee was not a Departmental one but a Special one; and that a great part of its scope was to go into questions of a high order—that was, inquiry into military efficiency, discipline, and recruiting; and that it had to perforin a grave State duty—to suggest a remedy for the practical defects which were found to have occurred in Lord Card well's Scheme. Therefore, the first excuse, that the Committee was a Departmental one, fell entirety to the ground. The second excuse was equally invalid. It was the French excuse—"Qui s'excuse s accuse." On a former occasion he explained that the short-service soldiers had been forced by the present system to undergo trials and hardships in war which the totality of the Medical Profession declared it was impossible that they could bear; that their morale must collapse with their physique; and that, therefore, the responsibility fell, not on them, but on the authors of the system. He had said enough to show the high scope of the State duties assigned to the Committee, showing that they belonged to the competency of Her Majesty's Government— of course, including the Secretary of State for War—and of Parliament, and were not of the individual competency of the Minister of War, and that, consequently, the Secretary of State for War was bound to submit them to Parliament as soon as he possibly could; for the short-service system was simply a law sanctioned and passed by both Houses of Parliament, and any alteration of that law must receive their assent. The Report was sent in to the War Office on the 8th of March, 1880, and had been a year in the exclusive possession of the Secretary of State for War, and yet the Secretary would be able to avail himself of any portion of the evidence given before the Commissioners before the whole of it with the Report was in the hands of their Lordships. In fact, their Lordships would only have it "a day after the fair." He begged to move the Resolution which stood in his name.
  Moved, "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying Her Majesty that she will be graciously pleased to direct that the Report of the Committee on Army Organization over which Lord Airey presided may he presented to the House at an carly day."—(The Lord Strathnairn.)
  LORD DORCHESTERthought that if his noble and gallant Friend had been as well versed in the forensic art as in the art of war, he might have made out a formidable ease in favour of the presentation of the Report. But when they were told that the Report was to be presented, willy-nilly, on Tuesday next, it was rather late to insist on its production four days before that time. A little more respect might have been shown to Parliament by presenting it before the present time. The public had a right to know, at the earliest opportunity, the condition the Army had been in during the past few years, and the success which had attended the new Scheme promulgated by one Party and supported by the other. The Committee, of which Lord Airey was the Chairman, had commenced sitting, he believed, in the month of June, 1879, and reported early last year. It had been described as a Departmental Committee; but he found, from opinions he had taken, that it was a Special Committee. No adequate reason existed for the Report being kept back from Parliament and the public, when every point that came before the Committee was known to every serjeant-major in the Service. He was guilty of no breach of Parliamentary decorum when ho said that the highest military authorities did not object to the production of the Report. He did not know that more than one or two Members of the Committee objected to its production; and, as a matter of fact, he did not believe there was anything in it which could not be published at Charing Cross, and which was not known to the military attaches of the various Embassies. He himself had seen the Report a year ago, and he knew that a Member of Parliament who was not connected with the War Office, and who did not sit on either of the Front Benches, had the Report for some weeks in his house. He had been told, also, by a distinguished officer at a Club, of which several noble Lords and Members of the other House of Parliament were members, that he bad seen the Report
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  in Canada. The Times published a resume of it months ago; and, in his pamphlet, General Lintorn Simmons, himself a Member of the Committee, referring to a leading article in The Times, said—
  "The writer of the article has an advantage over any non-official person like myself, inasmuch as he quotes from the Report of Lord Airey'a Committee, which I cannot."
  He trusted that at no distant date they would have a long and thorough discussion on the condition of the Army in their Lordships' House. He had seen the Army and knew what it was; and it was a matter of surprise to him that Her Majesty's soldiers were not blown from the transports on their passage to India, such slender little boys were they. He did not know how three or four officers, who passed most of their time, he believed, in comfortable arm-chairs at the War Office, could pit their opinions against those of his noble and gallant Friend (Lord Strathnairn). With the facts patent to everybody before him, he did not think any judge could arrive at the decision that short service should be continued. The Government ought to have given them the Report before the introduction of the Army Estimates, for to present it to them after was only rendering them sagesse apres coup.
  LORD AIREYsaid, he could not understand why the Report had not been produced, as the Committee had finished their labours on the 8th of March last. It embodied every description of evidence from the several Military Departments; but how the contents of the Report had transpired he did not know, and he could only suppose that they had leaked out from the War Office. It was incomprehensible to him that, as the Government had determined to lay the Report before Parliament, they should have decided on not presenting it till the Secretary of State for War made his Statement on the Army Estimates. The decision of the Government in this respect appeared to him to be a very unfortunate one.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYexpressed surprise at the Motion of the noble and gallant Lord, after the very distinct assurance which had been given him that the Report would be laid on their Lordships' Table at the beginning of next week, after the Secretary of State for

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  War had made his Statement on the condition of the Army. If the Motion were carried now it would not accelerate by one hour the production of the Report. The noble and gallant Lord (Lord Strathnairn), and the noble Lord behind him (Lord Dorchester), had complained of the tactics of the War Office; but he was not aware of there being any subtle tactics whatever. For himself, whenever the question had been raised, he had always returned the same, and a very distinct, answer, that the Report should be printed as soon as the Secretary of State for War had submitted his Statement as to the condition of the Army. It seemed to be assumed that the object of this Report would be defeated, unless it was produced before Tuesday next. He was not aware that it would be possible to have a discussion in this House before that date; and he was at a loss to know how the object of the Report could be defeated when their Lordships would, in the course of the Session, have many opportunities of discussing the suggestions of the Committee for the re-organization of the Army. There was no desire or wish on the part of the Secretary of State or the Government to conceal anything; but it would have been highly inconvenient that comments and criticisms should be made on the condition of the Army until the House had an opportunity of considering what proposals the Government were to make. It was impossible for him now to state how far ho agreed or disagreed with the many attacks which had been made upon the present system by noble and gallant Lords on both sides of the House. The distinction between a "Special" and "Departmental" Committee which had been drawn seemed to him somewhat subtle—almost too subtle for him to analyze it. The noble and gallant Lord admitted that it was a Committee appointed to advise the Secretary of State for War. That being so, it was quite within the discretion of his right hon. Friend to determine whether or not the Report should be laid before Parliament. His right hon. Friend, wishing that nothing on the subject should be kept back from Parliament, had determined to produce it; but he submitted to their Lordships that the time of its production ought to be loft to the discretion of his right hon. Friend. His noble Friend behind him (Lord Dorchester) said that
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  he had already seen that Report. He was sorry to say that by some means, certainly not legitimate, matters contained in that Report had been prematurely published; but that was not the slightest argument for anticipating the intention of the Secretary of State. Of that opportunity of perusing the Report he had no doubt the noble Lord had made good use.
  LORD DORCHESTER: I did not open the book, though it was offered to me. I felt I ought not.
  THE EARL OF MORLEYthought the Motion was unnecessary, and he trusted the noble and gallant Lord would not press it.
  THE DUKE OF CAMBRIDGE: I think your Lordships will agree that it is impossible to discuss the matter brought forward as it is on the present occasion. We are in possession of neither the Report nor the Secretary of State's views, so that at this moment we have nothing before us. There is one thing I am anxious to say. This Army question is causing a great deal of sensation in the civil as well as in the military world, and it is really a question that requires the gravest consideration, But it is not a Party question; it is an Imperial question. I wish I could induce the country to look at the matter as entirely devoid of Party spirit. What does it matter to one Party or the other whether the long or short service prevails? What is wanted is that the country shall have a good Army, and the question is whether a bettor Army can be produced the one way or the other. It is not a Party question; but a matter for common sense and experience. I give no opinion as to which is right or wrong at this moment; and I put it to your Lordships that no solution should be attempted to be arrived at until the fullest information shall be placed in the possession of everybody, whether of this House, the other House, or, indeed, the public out-of-doors. Let the question be discussed, not on Party grounds, but on military grounds, and on its merits. Every man in this country wishes well to the Empire, and wishes to see a good and efficient Army; and if that can be obtained in one way better than in another, I am quite sure everybody would be quite disposed to give up their own theories and to accept those which common sense and experience lead us to

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  believe would be the best. I do hope that no decision will be come to till the information contained in the Report has been thoroughly sifted, thoroughly appreciated, and is thoroughly understood; and then, after we once do come to a solution, I hope that decision will be adhered to, because anything worse than constant changes, and the doubts and uncertainty which exist, I cannot imagine.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: My Lords, I entirely concur with the remarks of the noble and illustrious Duke. The question is an Imperial question, and not a Party one; and, as far as I know, those sitting on the Opposition side of the House have never attempted to make it a Party question, but have always approached it with the view of making the Army as efficient as it could be made. Notwithstanding what has been said, it is not at all surprising that my noble and gallant Friend (Lord Strathnairn), holding the position ho does in Her Majesty's Army—the highest position which a soldier can aspire to—and after the service which he has seen, and the manner in which he has performed that service, takes a very great interest in the question of the condition of the Army. I would advise him, however, not to press his Motion that the Report be presented at an earlier day than that on which we have been assured it will be presented—namely, Tuesday next, because it can hardly now be presented earlier. Anyone who has gone over the present condition of the Army, and the manner in which service-battalions are fed from this country, must be, I think, fully satisfied that there must be some alteration of the existing system. I speak in the presence of the illustrious Duke the Commander-in-Chief. He will correct me if I am wrong, when I say that at the present moment, to fill up the ranks of the battalions that are serving abroad, men are sent out who have not been dismissed drill. I ask whether we can expect a proper state of things to exist in India, or at the Cape, if the ranks are to be filled by men who have not yet been dismissed drill? I think we have a right to ask Her Majesty's Government, and the noble Earl who represents the War Department, that they will give an undertaking that there shall be no course adopted, either in this or the other House of Parliament, which shall in any
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  way bind the country or the House to adopt any system or any mode of action which shall be contrary to the recommendations of the Committee over which Lord Airey presided, and until both Houses shall have had ample opportunity to thoroughly and fully discuss the Report and recommendations that are made in it. I think we have a right to demand from the Government that they will take no action in the matter until that Report has been fully and thoroughly discussed by both Houses of Parliament.
  THE EARL OF MORLEY: I have already said that both Houses will have opportunities of discussing the Report in connection with the proposals of the Government in submitting the Estimates.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: It is useless giving us an opportunity for discussing the recommendations of the Committee if, by your action you have already taken some stop which is entirely at variance with those recommendations. It is like locking the door after the steed has been stolen.
  THE LORD CHANCELLOR: I cannot understand what the noble Duke means. It was the duty of Her Majesty's Government to consider this Report and to make up their minds as to the proposals which they should make to Parliament. Those proposals will be made known, in the proper place, on Monday next. In the meantime, does the noble Duke expect them to give an undertaking as to what they will or will not propose? Something they must propose, and then both Houses will have the fullest possible opportunities of considering and discussing the whole matter.
  VISCOUNT CRANBROOK: That is to say, that the Estimates will not be pressed forward until both Houses shall have had an opportunity of making themselves fully acquainted with and discussing this Report, which is only to be laid on the Table when the Estimates are introduced. What my noble Friend moans is, that we cannot be said to have had the fullest opportunity of considering and discussing the recommendations of the Committee if steps have previously been taken by the Government at variance with those recommendations. If the noble Lord says that we shall have that opportunity after we have become acquainted with the Report before any final discussion is taken, that is all that is desired.
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOK: I am afraid it would he impossible, under the circumstances of the case, to give any pledge that progress with the Estimates shall wait for any decision on the question, because that might not be consistent with the Public Service.
  LORD ELLENBOROUGH: I hope that no Papers on the subject will be communicated to the newspapers before they are presented to Parliament.
  In reply to Lord PENZANCE,
  THE EARL OF MORLEYsaid, that the whole of the Report, as well as the Evidence, would be laid on the Table as soon as the Estimates were submitted.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

  LOCAL TAXATION RETURNS (SCOTLAND) BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to provide for an annual return of Rates, Taxes, Tolls, and Dues levied for local purposes in Scotland—Was presented by The Lord RAMSAT; read 1a. (No. 37.)
  House adjourned at a quarter past Six o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.