Sitting of 1 July 1880

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN—Pandeli Ralli, esquire, for Wallingford.
PRIVATE BILL—Select Committee—Report—Liverpool Corporation Water*.
PUBLIC BILLS—Second Reading—Relief of Distress (Ireland)*[244], delate adjourned.
Committee—Report—Limitation of Costs (Ireland) (re-comm.)* [250]; Wild Birds Protection Law Amendment* [211–253].
Third Readinq—Local Government Provisional Orders (Ashford, &c.) [New Title]*[122]; Local Government Provisional Orders (Bethesda, &c.)*[128], and passed.
Withdrawn—Bank Holidays (Scotland)*[240].

CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS.
Mr. SPEAKER informed the House, that he had received from Lord Justice Coleridge and Mr. Justice Grove, two of the Judges selected, in pursuance of The Parliamentary Elections Act, 1868, for the Trial of Election Petitions, a Report relating to the Elections for

The Borough of Nottingham,

The Borough of Leominster;

The Borough of Bury St. Edmunds;

The Borough of Wilton; and

The Borough of Horsham:

From Mr. Baron Fitzgerald and Mr. Justice Barry, two of the Judges selected in pursuance of the same Act, a Certificate and Report relating to the Election for
The County of Down:
And from Mr. Justice Denman and Mr. Justice Lopes, two of the Judges selected, in pursuance of the same Act, a Certificate and Report relating to the Election for
The Borough of Bewdley.

BOROUGH OF NOTTINGHAM ELECTION, &c.
Court of Common Pleas, Westminster. 28th June 1880.
Sir,
We have the honour to report to you that the Petitions against the Returns of Members for the following places have been withdrawn by leave of the Court.

The Borough of Nottingham;

The Borough of Leominster;

The Borough of Bury St. Edmunds;

The Borough of Wilton; and

The Borough of Horsham.

We have also to report that, in our opinion, the withdrawal of none of these Petitions was the result of any corrupt arrangement or in consideration of the withdrawal of any other Petition.
With reference to the withdrawal of the Nottingham Petition, the Lord Chief Justice received through the Post the letter which he

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incloses to you herewith. We express no opinion whatever upon the value or worthlessness of the communication, hut, inasmuch as it is not anonymous, and refers to an Election Petition, we have thought it proper to transmit it to you. The allegations made in it were denied on oath by the Petitioners and the Petitioners' Agents; and we see no reason to doubt the truth of their assertions. The Respondent made no statement or affidavit and desired his Petition to proceed; but, as we saw no reason to believe the Petitioners to be in any default, or to be in any way connected with the letter or the statements in it, we did not accede to this desire and allowed the Petition to be withdrawn.
We are, Sir,
Your obedient humble servants,
COLERIDGE,
Lord Chief Justice of the Common Pleas.
W. R. GROVE,
Judge of the Common Pleas.
The Eight Honble.
The Speaker of the House of Commons.
Nottingham,
June 22nd, 1880.
To Lord Justice Coleridge.
My Lord,
I hope you will pardon me troubling you but having seen an announcement in the Nottingham papers of an application to withdraw the Nottingham Petition, I thought it only my duty to inform your Lordship of a report that is gaining currency in the town, namely, that the Liberals have agreed to pay over a sum of £10,000 on condition that the Petition is unconditionally withdrawn.
I may add that the application to withdraw the Petition has given great dissatisfaction to a many, as bribery is supposed to have prevailed to an alarming extent. Hoping your Lordship will not think me presumptuous in thus writing to you.
I remain,
My Lord,
Your humble Servant,
JAMES NORMAN.
Lord Justice Coleridge.

COUNTY OF DOWN ELECTION.
The Parliamentary Elections Act, 1868, and The Parliamentary Elections and Corrupt Practices Act, 1879.
Election for the County of Down, holden on the 7th day of April 1880.
Blakely McCartney, Petitioner; Charles Stewart Vane Tempest, commonly called Lord Viscount Castlereagh, Respondent.
The matter of the Petition above-mentioned was heard before us, Francis Alexander FitzGerald, one of the Barons of the Exchequer Division of the High Court of Justice in Ireland, and Charles Robert Barry, one of the Justices of the Queen's Bench Division of the High Court of Justice in Ireland, being two of the Judges for the time being on the rota for the trial of Election Petitions in Ireland, at
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Downpatrick, on the 17th, 18th, 19th, 21st, 22nd, 23rd, 24th, 25th, 26th, 28th, and 29th days of June 1880, and at the conclusion of the trial on the last-mentioned day we differed, and do hereby certify to the Right Honorable The Speaker of the House of Commons that we so differed, as to whether the said Charles Stewart Vane Tempest, commonly called Lord Viscount Castlereagh, was duly elected and returned as a Member to serve in Parliament for the County of Down at the Election to which the Petition relates, and that I, the said Francis Alexander FitzGerald, was and am of opinion that the said Viscount Castlereagh was duly elected and returned, and that I, the said Charles Robert Barry, was and am of opinion that the said Viscount Castlereagh was not duly elected.
We further certify that I, the said Francis Alexander FitzGerald, was and am of opinion that the corrupt practice of undue influence was not proved to have been committed at such Election by the said Viscount Castlereagh, or with his knowledge and consent, or on his behalf, and that I, the said Charles Robert Barry, was and am of opinion that the corrupt practice of undue influence was proved to have been committed at such Election on behalf of the said Viscount Castlereagh, but not by him or with his knowledge or consent.
Further we report that, save as aforesaid, no corrupt practice was proved to have been committed at such Election by or with the consent or knowledge of any of the candidates at said Election.
Further we report that we have no reason to believe that corrupt practices extensively prevailed at the Election to which this Petition relates.
Dated this 30th day of Jane 1880.
F. A. FITZGERALD,
Baron of the Exchequer Division of Her Majesty's High Court of Justice in Ireland.
CHARLES R. BARRY,
Justice of the Queen's Bench Division of Her Majesty's High Court of Justice in Ireland.

BEWDLEY ELECTION.
Parliamentary Elections Act, 1868.
To The Right Honble.
The Speaker of the House of Commons.
We, the Honble. George Denman, and Sir Henry Lopes, kt., Judges for the trial of Election Petitions in England, do hereby, in pursuance of the said Act, certify,—
That upon the 23rd day of June and following days we held a Court at Bewdley for the trial of, and did try, the Election Petition for the Borough of Bewdley, between William Francis Spencer and John Blundell, Petitioners; and Charles Harrison, Respondent.
And, in further pursuance of the said Act, we certify that we determined that the said Respondent was not duly elected and returned, and that the said Election is void.
And we hereby certify in writing such our determination to you.
And whereas charges were made in the said Petition of corrupt practices having been committed at the said Election, we, in further pursuance of the said Act, report in writing to you as follows:—

1. That no corrupt practice was proved to have teen committed by or with the knowledge of any Candidate at the said Election.

2. That the following person! were proved at the said trial to have been guilty of corrupt practices at the said Election: viz. Thomas Nellist and Frederick Cole, of bribery.

3. That we have no reason to believe that corrupt practices extensively prevailed at the said Election to which the said Petition relates.

GEORGE DENMAN.
HENRY C. LOPES.
York,
30 June, 1880.
And the said Certificates and Reports were ordered to be entered in the Journals of this House.

QUESTIONS

  CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE BILL—THE WINE DUTIES.
  MR. J. G. HUBBARDgave Notice that to-morrow he would ask the Prime Minister, Whether, considering the uncertainty which prevails in regard to the French Commercial Treaty, he proposes to omit from the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill the provisions bearing upon the Wine Duties; and whether, in the event of proposing changes, he will announce them at the earliest moment, so as to terminate the state of uncertainty that is now affecting the interest of the wine trade?
  MR. GLADSTONE: Perhaps it will be convenient that I should say now what I should have to say at a later period. I propose on a future day—on Monday—to re-commit the Customs and Inland Revenue Bill pro forma. I shall then name a day for its re-consideration; and in the new Bill I do not propose to include the provisions relating to the Wine Duties, being aware of the great inconvenience which would result from prolonged uncertainty.

  HARES AND RABBITS BILL.
  MR. J. HOWARDgave Notice that to-morrow he would ask the Home Secretary, Whether there is any foundation for the statement in The Mark Lane Express of this week—
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  "We learn upon authority—which we fear is too good to be doubted—that it is the intention of the Government to drop the Hares and Rabbits Bill for this Session."
  Further, if the alleged intention to drop the Bill was unauthorized, on what day it might be expected that the debate on the second reading would be resumed?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: I may as well answer that Question at once. The Government have no intention of abandoning the Bill; but it is not entirely in their power as yet to fix a day for the resumption of the debate on the second reading.

  HOUSE OF PARLIAMENT—THE ELECTRIC LIGHT.
  MR. D. GRANTasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether he will take into his consideration the advisability of substituting the electric light for the purpose of illuminating the House in place of the gas as now used in the roof?
  MR. ADAM: The question of lighting the House and approaches by the electric light has received, and is receiving, careful consideration. I will take care that it continues to receive full attention; but I am not prepared at present to recommend any definite course of action on so important a question, involving much change and alteration of existing arrangements, and which ought not to be finally adopted without going through the test of careful experiment.

  NATIONAL SCHOOLS (IRELAND)—NATIONAL SCHOOL TEACHERS.
  MR. VILLIERS STUARTasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If he would explain to the House under what circumstances and for what reason a retiring gratuity was last year refused by the Commissioners of National Education to Mr. John Coleman, National School teacher, of Knockanore, in the county of Waterford, who, after twenty-five years of efficient service and blameless life and conduct, has been compelled to retire through loss of eyesight, and is now left destitute in his old age, and with no resource but the poorhouse; and, whether an annual sum is not voted by Parliament to meet such cases?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: The sum annually voted by Parliament is intended

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  to be given as retiring gratuities to meritorious National School teachers. I am sorry to say that in regard to the case of Coleman it is not correct to say that he had passed 25 years of efficient service and blameless life and conduct. In 1866 serious charges were brought against him, one of them being that he had been convicted of drunkenness in the town of Youghal. The Commissioners were able to go into the application for these annuities in his case, and they found he had been also fined in 1873 for falsifying the ages of his pupils, and that in 1877 10 per cent had been deducted from his results fees. I would ask my hon. Friend and other hon. Gentlemen interested in individual cases whether it would not be better to come to me in the first instance, and if they are not satisfied with my answer they can give Notice of any Question. At present it not only takes up the time of the House, but it leads to statements about individuals which might otherwise be avoided.

  NATIONAL SCHOOLS (IEELAND)—ASSISTANT TEACHERS.
  MR. PARNELLasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, If his attention had been called to the Resolution of the Roman Catholic hierarchy, forwarded to the Commissioners of National Education last December, condemnatory of the recent action of the Board in requiring an average attendance of seventy instead of fifty scholars to secure the payment for the services of an assistant teacher in national schools; whether the Right honourable Gentleman, in view of this Resolution from so influential a body, will direct the Education Board to modify the Rule; whether the work of teaching in national schools, owing to the system of payment by results, is not greater than it was in 1863; and, whether it is true that half the inspecting staff, during the years the results system has been in operation, have left the service through infirmity, or have died?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: I have seen, Sir, the Resolution of the Roman Catholic Archbishops and Bishops with regard to the question referred to by the hon. Gentleman, and I have also seen a Memorandum from the Commissioners of National Education, stating the grounds
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  on which they do not agree with that Resolution. It would not be fitting for me, or anyone appointed to a responsible office, to decide upon the Resolution without full inquiry into the matter. Payment for results has increased the salaries of teachers. I do not think that the labour of conscientious hardworking teachers is greatly increased owing to payment for results, though, no doubt, the additional payments will stimulate those who were apathetic before. It is not correct to say that half the inspecting staff have left the service through infirmity, or have died since the system of payment for results had come into operation. The number of inspectors is 98, and the total number of vacancies from all causes is 26, or little more than one-fourth, in the eight years.

  LANDLORD AND TENANT (IRELAND)—EXECUTION CREDITORS.
  MR. PARNELLasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, Whether his attention has been directed to the cases of Garde v. Dunlea, and Garde v. Baylor, in the Exchequer Division of the High Court of Justice, Ireland; whether verdicts for £500 were given by direction of the Judge against both defendants at the last Clonmel Assizes; whether a new trial has now been refused Mr. Baylor; whether the cases arose because the defendants, who are merchants of Fermoy, county Cork, executed decrees for amounts under £14 and £6 for debts justly due to them by a tenant of plaintiff's, and thus, as was held, rendered themselves each liable for the full amount of a year's rent (£500), owed by this tenant to Mr. Garde, his landlord; if the Government intend to take steps to remedy the present state of the Law in Ireland, under which it appears possible for landlords, whose tenants are in arrear, to recover these arrears from any other creditors of the tenant who may attempt legally to enforce their claims; and, whether, as a verdict for the amount of the year's rent due to Mr. Garde in the cases under notice, £500 was returned against both Mr. Baylor and Mr. Dunlea, the landlord will be entitled to obtain the £500 from each separately, and afterwards to recover the same sum from his tenant?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. LAW): In answer to the Question of the hon. Member, I may say my attention has been directed to the cases referred to, and the facts are substantially as stated by him. The actions were brought by the landlord under the authority of a statute passed in the reign of Queen Anne, by which a tenant's goods are exempt from execution unless the execution creditors undertake to pay the rent due to the landlord not exceeding one year's rent. The question whether the liability was for the entire year's rent, or only the value of goods seized, was now the subject of an appeal from the judgment of the Exchequer Division. As to the question whether the Government will take steps to remedy the present state of the law in Ireland, I am not prepared to say they will do so. The law in England and in Ireland is in this respect identical; and, no doubt, it is one of those matters which may have to be considered in dealing with the Land Question. As to the final portion of the Question, whether the landlord can recover the full year's rent from each of the creditors, and afterwards from the tenant also, I venture to think he must be content with something less than three times his rent.

  MADAGASCAR—TREATY OF 1865.
  MR. T. FRYasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If he will lay upon the Table a Copy of such proposals as may have been made by the Government of the Queen of Madagascar for the revision of the Treaty of 1865, with any Correspondence that may have taken place thereon?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: Correspondence is still going on with regard to the proposals, and it would not be convenient to lay the Papers before the House in their present shape.

  CONTROVERTED ELECTIONS—PLYMOUTH ELECTION PETITION.
  MR. PULESTONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been directed to the following remarks of the learned Judge in the judgment given in the case of the Plymouth Election Petition, viz.:—
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  "I have never unseated an innocent Member for the Acts of his agent without feeling that the law which so punishes both of the Member and the constituency for the single act of an agent is unduly severe;"
  and, whether he will take the matter into consideration before the introduction of a new Ballot Act?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: My attention has not been called to the judgment of the learned Judge except by the Question of the hon. Member; but, assuming that his words are correctly stated, I must express my entire dissent from the view of the learned Judge. I believe every man in this House to be innocent; but I cannot think it would be safe to hold that a Member, or a candidate, should not be responsible for the action of his agent. It is perfectly plain that an agent by a single act might corrupt a whole constituency; and, therefore, I cannot promise that in a new Ballot Act I will propose to repeal the old law by which the responsibility is thrown upon a Member or a candidate.

  TRAINING SCHOOLS (IRELAND).
  SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether Her Majesty's Government will be prepared to reduce the charge applicable for the present Government Training Schools, which do not enjoy the confidence of the Catholic, with a view to taking on the charge for those schools, which are acceptable to them, and are now in efficient operation?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: Sir, this whole question of training schools, and of the money allowed by the State for them, is one which requires very close attention, and it shall have it. With regard to the Marlborough Street model schools, I do not think that the charge for them can be reduced without materially diminishing their efficiency, and I believe they do much good. As to model schools generally, I do not think any Government ought to be called upon to give an opinion without full consideration.

  COLONY OF VICTORIA—THE LEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY.
  MR. COURTNEYasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether it is true that the Victorian

  1245
  Assembly, elected early in March last, has thrown out the Reform Bill brought in by the Ministry called to power upon the election of that assembly; and, whether the Ministry have recommended another dissolution to the Governor; and, if so, whether the Governor has resolved to act upon that recommendation?
  MR. GRANT DUFF: Yes, Sir; these statements are perfectly correct.

  BURMAH.
  MR. BRYCEasked the Secretary of State for India, What is the present state of diplomatic relations between the Government of India and the King of Burmah; and, whether, having regard to the conciliatory disposition evinced for some months past by the King of Burmah, Her Majesty's Government will consider the propriety of directing the British Envoy to return to Mandalay?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON,in reply, said, in consequence of the attitude of the Government of Burmah towards the British Resident at Mandalay and other causes, the relations of the Indian Government to the Government of Burmah last year were extremely strained. On the death of Mr. Shaw in June 1879, Colonel Harold Browne was immediately despatched to succeed him; but, in consequence of the difficulties of his position, that gentleman was recalled, and an Assistant Resident left at the capital to transact current business. The latter found his position at Mandalay so precarious, that it was impossible for him to remain any longer without danger to his own life and that of his assistants; and, consequently, in October 1879, the British Mission was withdrawn. In consequence of certain riotous assaults since that period in Upper Burmah on British flotilla steamers, demands for redress had been addressed to the Government of Burmah; but the result was not yet known. The Indian Government would consider the propriety of appointing a British Resident as soon as certain stipulations which it was considered right and necessary to insist upon with regard to the treatment of the Mission should be accepted. A special Mission had been sent by the King of Burmah to the Frontier; but, although it was said to have full powers, it appeared that the Envoy had
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  not been definitely instructed by the King to assent to the preliminary conditions which the Indian Government considered indispensable to the re-establishment of a British Mission at Mandalay. The whole question of our relations with Burmah was now under the consideration of the Government of India; and, no doubt, the Viceroy would be greatly assisted by the advice of the Chief Commissioner of British Burmah, who had lately been appointed a provisional member of the Council of the Governor General.

  THE HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT—DECORATION OF THE CENTRAL HALL.
  MR. SCHREIBERasked the First Commissioner of Works, When he intends to complete the mural decoration of the central hall of the Houses; whether he is in possession of designs for the three vacant panels; and, at what cost each panel can be filled in with Mosaics?
  MR. ADAM: The question as to the best mode of filling in the vacant panels in the Central Hall has given rise to much discussion, and was very fully inquired into in 1870 and 1871; but no definite conclusion was arrived at. I am of opinion that the vacant spaces should be filled up; but I am unable, without further consideration, to state when this can be done. No designs exist for the vacant panels. The cost of the panel already filled in was about £675; but I am unable at present to say what will be the cost of filling in the vacant panels.

  INDIA—CORPORAL PUNISHMENT IN INDIAN GAOLS.
  MR. A. M. SULLIVANasked the Secretary of State for India, Whether, considering the contemplated abolition of flogging in Her Majesty's Naval and Military Services, the Government will take any and what measures to abolish punishment by the lash or bamboo amongst Her Majesty's Indian subjects?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: In answer to the Question the hon. and learned Member gave Notice of the other day, and which does not appear on the Paper, I may state that I have made inquiries, and find that corporal punishments in India are inflicted under different regulations from those which have

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  been hitherto in force in regard to the Army and Navy. As far as I am able to ascertain, the punishment is usually inflicted, not with a "cat-o'-nine-tails," but with, a light cane; certainly in all cases of juvenile offenders that is so, and even when the punishment is inflicted on adults it is of a mild description. So much in answer to the general question of the hon. and learned Member. I may say that the experiment of discontinuing the punishment was tried on several occasions, both partially and in the whole of India. From 1862 to 1864 the punishment was not inflicted. During that time complaints were made by all the Local Governments of the difficulty experienced in the interval. It has not been, therefore, continued or adopted by the Government of India without full consideration. Among the considerations which have rendered it necessary was the difficulty of inflicting any suitable punishment in a tropical climate. Imprisonment and solitary or separate confinement were to be avoided as far as possible, owing to the mortality which occurred being very high in crowded gaols, among prisoners who had been accustomed to spend almost their whole lives in the open air. It would be impossible to take any hasty or precipitate step in this matter. All I can undertake to do is to call for full Reports from the Government of India and the local Governments as to the circumstances in which the punishment is inflicted, and the necessity that now exists for maintaining it. I will further ask them for any suggestions they may have to make as to its modification or possible discontinuance.

  FISHERY PIERS AND HARBOURS (IRELAND)—ARKLOW HARBOUR.
  MR. M'COANasked the Secretary to the Treasury, To say, having regard to the admission contained in the Preamble to a Bill introduced by the late Government in 1876 for the improvement of Arklow Harbour, that said harbour was an important station and place of refuge for vessels employed in prosecuting the sea fisheries on the east coast of Ireland, and should be deepened, extended, and otherwise improved, and also having regard to the opinion expressed by his Grace the Duke of Marlborough when, as Lord Lieutenant, he visited Arklow in November 1878—"That the improve-
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  ment of Arklow Harbour would be a work of national importance as well as local benefit," whether prompt measures will be taken by the Government to acquire, by arbitration or otherwise, possession of the harbour from its present proprietors, in order that works of improvement of such admitted public importance may be proceeded with without further delay?
  LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: As the hon. Member is probably aware, the Bill introduced by the late Government for the improvement of Arklow Harbour contemplated the transfer of the harbour to the Board of Works for improvement, at an estimated cost of £26,000, one-half to be a free grant and the other half to be advanced by way of loan on certain specified security; and that, on the completion of the works, the harbour should be handed over to a body of local Commissioners. The Bill was ultimately withdrawn, in consequence of certain conditions demanded by the Wicklow Copper Mining Company, who are the owners of the harbour, with which the Government were unable to comply. The Company made a fresh proposal last year, to which also the Government were not able to agree. The effect of this proposal was that, while retaining the harbour as their own property, the Company should obtain the grant which it had been proposed, under the Bill of 1876, to make on the condition of the harbour being constituted public property and vested in local Commissioners. The Government would be ready to consider any proposals for an agreement, whether by arbitration or otherwise, which may be brought before them, if they are such as could be fairly entertained; but they are not prepared to take the initiative in the matter.

  ELEMENTARY EDUCATION—BOARD SCHOOLS—CORPORAL PUNISHMENT.
  SIR CHARLES REEDasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, "Whether his attention has been called to the case of Jeffry v. Taylor, decided at the Southwark Police Court on Wednesday June 16th, in which a head teacher was fined for inflicting corporal punishment in school hours; and, whether, under the circumstances, he is prepared to advise that

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  the conviction be quashed, and to state the law with reference to the infliction of corporal punishment in schools?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: As to the state of the law generally, I imagine that in schools the schoolmaster is justified in inflicting a reasonable amount of corporal punishment; but it is for the magistrate, on a complaint being made by a parent, to determine whether that punishment is reasonable or not. That is generally the state of the law on the subject. I have inquired into this particular case; and it appears that the parents complained of the punishment of the child, who had been kept at home, and who had been punished by the schoolmistress, on return to school, with a cane. It appears from the statement of the magistrate, that the schoolmistress had not obeyed two separate regulations, which require that every occurrence of corporal punishment shall be formally recorded in a book kept for the purpose, and that the punishment must not be inflicted during school hours. The magistrate thought the punishment not unreasonable, and inflicted the smallest penalty, with 2s. costs. Under these circumstances, I do not think there is any reason to advise that the conviction be quashed.

  INDIAN RAILWAYS—PORTUGAL—THE PORT OF GOA.
  MR. M. SCOTTasked the Secretary of State for India, Whether negotiations have been entered into by the Supreme Government of India and the Portuguese Government for the construction of a Railway to connect the Port of Goa with any town within the territory of British India; and, if such negotiations are completed; and, whether he will be so good as to lay the Agreement between the two Governments, and other Papers connected with the subject, upon the Table?
  THE MARUESS OF HARTINGTON: A Treaty has been concluded between Great Britain and Portugal, dated 26th December, 1878, under Article 6 of which Treaty it is agreed that whenever the Portuguese Government give notice to the British Government that a Joint- Stock Company has been formed for the construction of a Railway to connect the Port of Marmagoa to the town of New Huble, and upon Her Majesty's
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  Government being satisfied that the concession by Portugal to the Company is suitable, and that the capital is forthcoming, Her Majesty's Government, on the part of the Government of India, engages to grant facilities in the construction and working so much of the undertaking as lies within British Indian territory, and to use its influence with Native Chiefs in obtaining for the Company similar facilities for so much of the line as may run through their territories; especially it is provided that the Indian Government shall provide land in their territory required for the Railway. It also undertakes to continue the Railway to the town of Bellary, where it will join the system of the Madras Railway Company. Since the conclusion of the Treaty, some Correspondence has passed between the India Office and the promoters of the proposed Company, which has been forwarded to the Government of India. The Treaty between the British Government and Portugal appeared in The London Gazette of 4th October, 1879. Until the Correspondence with the proposed Company is completed, I should think it premature to lay it on the Table.

  IRELAND—AMNESTY TO POLITICAL PRISONERS.
  MR. CALLANasked the First Lord of the Treasury, Whether, taking into consideration the generous amnesty extended to the rebel subjects taken in arms by the American Government, the large and all embracing amnesty granted to the Communist prisoners by Republican France, and the long periods of solitary imprisonment endured by those known as the Fenian prisoners in the United Kingdom, Her Majesty's Government will not now advise Her Majesty that the fitting time has at length arrived when a full and complete amnesty should be extended to all the Irish political prisoners, and that Messrs. O'Leary, O'Meara Condon, Clarke-Luby, O'Dono-van Rossa, and the other Fenian prisoners, should be allowed to return to the United Kingdom and reside in their native land?
  MR. GLADSTONE: My attention is called by the Question of the hon. Gentleman to three circumstances—first, the generous amnesty extended to its rebel subjects taken in arms by the American

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  Government. No doubt, Sir, that was a very noble act on the part of the American Government; but I must observe that it had reference entirely to a great quarrel decisively disposed of by a civil war, and not to any state of facts continuing or likely to continue in that country. My attention is also called to the amnesty granted to the Communist prisoners by Republican France. No doubt, a proposal of that kind is before the French Legislative Body; but, so far as my information goes, I believe that that proposal has not yet been accepted or become law. With respect to the Irish portion of the case, which forms the main subject of the Question, I beg that my answer may not be understood to extend beyond the terms in which it is couched. That answer is, I am sorry to say, that we do not consider the present period, with the circumstances which prevail at the present time in a portion of Ireland, as a fitting or convenient period for entertaining the subject of granting a further amnesty.

  POST OFFICE SAVINGS BANKS (IRELAND).
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTONasked the Postmaster General, If he can state whether the total amount deposited in Savings Banks in Ireland in 1879 has increased as compared with previous years; and, if so, the amount of that increase; and, whether there has been any increase in the amount of savings deposited in the eight counties, in the year 1879, in which distress is said to be most keenly felt, and the amount of such increase?
  MR. FAWCETT: In reply to the Question of the noble Lord, I find there has been an increase in the deposits in the Post Office Savings Banks in Ireland in every year since their establishment. In the year ending the 31st of December last, the increase in the deposits in the Post Office Savings Banks was £91,500. I find that this is a larger increase than has taken place in any year since 1870, excepting the years 1871,1876, and 1877. The latest available Return is for the quarter ending the 31st of March of the present year. The increase in the deposits in the Post Office Savings Banks has not only been maintained, but has gone on in an increasing ratio; for in this quarter the increase has been
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  £32,000, or at the rate of £128,000 a-year. This increase may be said to have spread itself almost over the whole of Ireland, for it occurs in every county except two—Kildare and Longford; and in these two counties the decrease has been very insignificant, amounting to only £700. With regard to the eight counties scheduled as distressed counties—Clare, Cork, Donegal, Galway, Kerry, Mayo, Roscommon, and Sligo—I find that in every one of these distressed counties there has been an increase in the deposits in the Post Office Savings Banks. This increase amounts, in the aggregate, to £24,600; but when we look to the old Savings Banks—the Trustee Savings Banks—these conclusions are considerably modified; for in these Savings Banks there has been a decrease in the last year of £86,000, which brings out the result that, taking them and the Post Office Savings Banks together, there has been throughout Ireland an increase of £5,500. In five of the distressed counties there are no Trustee Savings Banks, and in one of the three in which, there are the increase in the Post Office Savings Banks deposits considerably more than counterbalances the diminution in the old Savings Banks; and, therefore, we arrive at this net result—that, taking the eight distressed counties, and taking all the Savings Banks deposits, there is an increase in six of those distressed counties and a diminution in two. But, as the Question of the noble Lord relates to the savings of the Irish people, I ought to state further, from information furnished by Dr. Neilson Hancock, that during the three years, 1877, 1878, and 1879, there has been in the general bank deposits and in the note circulation of Ireland a diminution of about £5,200,000, and in 1877 and 1878 there was a diminution in the amount invested in Government Stock of £1,400,000; but in the last year, 1879, there has been an increase of £603,000 in the amount invested in Government Stocks.

  CRIMINAL LAW—CONVICT ESTABLISHMENT AT GALWAY.
  MR. T. P. O'CONNORasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether any, and, if so, what, steps have been taken to carry out the promise of the late Government

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  to establish a convict establishment at Galway in place of the establishment at Spike Island?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER,in reply, said, he understood the late Government did not make a distinct pledge on the subject, but only intimated that it would receive favourable consideration. When the Government came into Office they found the subject was still under consideration. As the present Government were not responsible for anything done by the late Government, they did not feel bound by the opinions of the late Government; and, besides that, it must be remembered that the subject of the question was only a part of the whole matter of prisons. All he could say was that when the question came to be considered, the claims of Galway would receive very careful attention.

  THE FINANCE ACCOUNTS—ANALYZED ACCOUNTS.
  MR. J. G. HUBBARDasked the Financial Secretary to the Treasury, When the Finance Accounts for the year 1879–80 will be presented; when the Analysed Account of Public Income and Expenditure for the year 1879–80 (in continuation of Parliamentary Paper, No. 376, of Session 1879), ordered by the House, will be presented; and, whether he would direct that this Analysed Statement be incorporated in the volume of Finance Accounts?
  LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH: The Treasury expect to be in a position to present the Finance Accounts in about a fortnight. The Analyzed Account to which the Question refers will be ready about the same time; and, being presented to Parliament in a separate form, there seems to be no reason for printing it over again in the Finance Accounts.

  FRENCH MERCANTILE MARINE.
  DR. CAMERONasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If he would lay upon the Table, with as little delay as possible, a translation of the "Projét de loi sur la Marine Marchande," at present being promoted by the French Government?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: The Bill in question is now under discussion in the Chamber of Deputies, and alterations are frequently made in it. As soon
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  as it is finally passed by the Chamber it shall be laid on the Table of the House, even without waiting for its going to the Senate.

  TREATY OF BERLIN—THE GREEK FRONTIER.
  MR. ARTHUR ARNOLDasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is true that the Plenipotentaries now assembled in Conference have arrived at a unanimous agreement with reference to a line for the rectification of the Turko-Greek frontier?
  MR. BOURKEasked, Whether the Papers relating to the Berlin Conference can now be laid before Parliament?
  MR. ALDERMAN COTTONasked, Whether, as the Conference now sitting at Berlin has agreed, with reference to the Greco-Turkish frontier question in connection with the Treaty of Berlin, as to the boundary line which should be adopted by both Countries, the hon. Gentleman can state whether all the Powers are prepared to use their united influence on both Governments to bring to a successful issue their decision?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE: In answer to the hon. Member for Salford and the hon. Member for the City of London, I have to state that the Plenipotentiaries of the Powers in Conference at Berlin have arrived at a unanimous conclusion with regard to the line of Frontier between Greece and Turkey for submission to their respective Governments. But no final decision has yet been come to by the Powers as to the steps to be taken in order to bring the conclusions of the Conference to the notice of the Turkish and Greek Governments. With regard to the Question of the right hon. Member for King's Lynn, I fear that it would be quite impossible to lay the Correspondence before the House at the present stage of the proceedings. Negotiations are still going on with regard to some subsidiary questions, and we have not yet received the full and final Reports of the Conference.
  In reply to Lord JOHN MANNERS,
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he would see whether the Austrian Staff Map, showing the boundaries, could not be laid on the Table of the Library.

  SOUTH AFRICA—MEDALS TO IRREGULAR FORCES.
  MR. WILBRAHAM EGERTONasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether medals will be issued to the irregular forces raised by the Government who have served in the Cape, Transvaal, and Zulu campaigns?
  MR. CHILDERS: In reply to my hon. Friend, I may inform him that medals will be issued to such of the Colonial Forces, European or Native, as were regularly organized and disciplined as combatants, whether raised by the Colonial Government or by the General Officer commanding.

  EAST INDIAN RAILWAYS—REPORT OF THE DEPARTMENTAL COMMITTEE.
  MR. NORWOODasked the Secretary of State for India, If he is now in a Position to lay upon the Table of the House the Report of the Departmental Committee on East Indian Railway (Freight, &c), to which he promised his consideration on the 24th May last?
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON,in reply, said, that since a Question was put at the end of May he had, as he promised he would, communicated with the Members of the Committee, and examined the Report and the evidence on which it was founded. Much of the evidence was obtained under the promise of secrecy. The Members of the Committee were of opinion that there would be no objection to produce the Report with certain omissions, and they had obtained the assent of most of the gentlemen who gave evidence to this course being taken; yet permission had not been obtained for the production of the evidence obtained under the promise of secrecy. Much of the evidence was taken in such a manner as to render it impossible to produce it. Only a portion was taken down in shorthand, and the rest was taken in the form of notes not suitable for forming part of a Parliamentary Paper. Under these circumstances, and finding the Committee had discussed with some freedom the system of management of some of the Guaranteed Companies, he thought it would not be to the public advantage, but rather the reverse, to lay this Report on the Table unsupported by the evidence on which it was founded; and he regretted,
  1256
  therefore, that he was unable to do so. He might, however, state that the Committee's conclusions, and the conclusions which had been generally adopted by the India Office and by the Guarantee Companies, were decidedly favourable to the system of obtaining freight, as a rule, by competitive tenders. That had been for some time the practice of the India Store Department itself; and after discussion and formulation of this system it had been decided to continue it, and to extend it to the different Guaranteed Railway Companies.

  THE NATIONAL GALLERY—ADMISSION OF THE PUBLIC.
  MR. COOPEasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether he is now able to lay upon the Table of the House the Resolutions adopted by the Trustees of the National Gallery as to giving increased facility for the admission to the public; and, whether he is prepared to state what action the Government is now willing to take in the matter?
  MR. ADAM: The copy of the Resolutions passed by the Trustees of the National Gallery, and their remarks explanatory of them, have been laid on the Table of the House, and will shortly be printed. The initiative in this matter rests with the Trustees, and not with the Government; but the latter will be prepared to consider any proposals that may be made to them on the subject, with the view of giving, if possible, increased facilities to the public and students.

  RETURN OF EJECTMENTS (IRELAND).
  SIR BALDWYN LEIGHTONasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, as regards the Returns for Ejectments in Ireland, quoted by him, Whether they related to the scheduled districts only, or to the whole of Ireland; and, whether he can state if they all relate to agricultural tenancies; what proportion were for over-holding leases; and what proportion made by middlemen; also in how many cases there was more than two years' rent due?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: The Return is substantially the same as the one I quoted from, and relates to the whole of Ireland. I was mistaken in saying that all the cases related to agricultural

  1257
  tenancies, for, on inquiry, I find that out of 1,060 evictions in this year 25 were in towns and cities. The Return is, however, necessarily incomplete. It does not give all the evictions that have taken place in Ireland, but only those reported to the Constabulary, and many take place without the Constabulary knowing anything of them. I cannot state what number of evictions relate to one holding; but a Return which was ordered by my Predecessor, and which I hope will be in the hands of Members in a day or two, will show the number of evictions for causes other than nonpayment of rent; nor can I say what proportion were for over holding of leases or made by middlemen. With regard to the Return, I am taking, and the officials in Dublin are taking, all the steps they can to get it as soon as possible, but both the Local Government Board and the Constabulary are very hard at work; and, between keeping the people alive and keeping the peace, I am sorry to say the Returns must, to some extent, give way.

  RAILWAYS (IRELAND)—SOUTHERN RAILWAY (CLONMEL & THURLES).
  MR. P. J. SMYTHasked the President of the Board of Trade, If he can state whether the Southern Railway (Clonmel and Thurles) was opened today; or whether, notwithstanding that the certificate of the Board of Trade was granted some days ago, additional obstacles have been put in the way by some of the larger Companies concerned?
  MR. CHAMBERLAIN: The Board of Trade authorized the opening of the Southern Railway for public traffic on the 25th June; but as regards the other points referred to in the Question of the hon. Member, I have received no official information. I may, however, be allowed to say that if there is any difficulty, as suggested in the Question, between the Railway Companies, the Board of Trade, having regard to the great public interests involved, would be glad, at the invitation of the Companies, to mediate between them, and see if they can bring their difficulties to a satisfactory conclusion.

  THE CITY COMPANIES—THE ROYAL COMMISSION.
  MR. COURTNEYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department,
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  When the Government propose to nominate the Royal Commission appointed to inquire into the City Companies?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT,in reply, said, he had been some time in communication with the gentlemen whom he intended to propose as Commissioners, and those communications had necessarily taken some time. He hoped, however, before many days were over to be in a position to nominate the Commission.

  STATE OF IRELAND—AGRARIAN CRIME.
  MR. TOTTENHAMasked the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, Whether he will lay upon the Table of the House a Return of all agrarian crimes and outrages committed in the counties of Mayo, Sligo, and Gal way, from 31st January 1880 to present date, and of the number of meetings called for the purpose of promoting the land agitation reported by the constabulary within the same counties since 30th June 1879, and of the number of cases in which resistance was offered to the police when protecting process servers, bailiffs, and others in the execution of their duty; and a Copy of the charge of the Judges of Assize to the Grand Juries of the counties of Mayo and Galway at the Spring Assizes of 1880?
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: Sir, I am sorry to say that the Question of the hon. Member escaped my notice until I came down to the House to-day, but I see no reason why we should not give almost all the particulars he mentions. My only doubt is whether we can sufficiently define "a meeting called for the purpose of promoting the land agitation." With respect to other matters mentioned, I shall be glad to give the Returns to the 30th of June; and if he will communicate with me, or give me Notice of further Questions, I may be able to give him more complete information.

  TREATY OF BERLIN—TURKEY AND GREECE—THE TRANSFERRED PROVINCES.
  MR. ASHMEAD-BARTLETTasked the First Lord of the Treasury, If Her Majesty's Government will take steps, with or without the assistance

  1259
  of the other Powers, to ascertain by means of a plebiscite among the inhabitants of the Provinces which, without consulting Turkey, it is proposed to transfer from the rule of the Sultan to that of the King of Greece; and, whether it is the wish of these people to be thus dealt with?
  MR. GLADSTONE: With regard to the plébiscite proposed by the hon. Gentleman to be held in certain portions of the Turkish Empire, we have no power and no intention of taking any step of the kind. We do not think that means exist for obtaining such a result. With respect to the second part of the Question, all I can say at present is, that so far as the Representative of Her Majesty's Government was concerned, and so far as the Representatives of the other Powers assembled in Berlin were concerned, they proceeded with the most careful attention in their power, and according to the best evidence they possessed, with respect to the wishes of the people to be dealt with in the manner proposed.

  CONTAGIOUS DISEASES ACTS—CONSTITUTION OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE.
  SIR HARCOURT JOHNSTONEasked the Secretary of State for War, Why the Select Committee on the Contagious Diseases Acts is not yet appointed, a month having elapsed since the First Lord of the Treasury gave the assurance of its appointment?
  MR. CHILDERS,in reply, said, that the Select Committee had been appointed a few days ago; but there had been a difficulty in filling up two of the vacant places in consequence of two Members who were Members of the Committee last year not having been returned to this Parliament. He would place the names of two Members on the Paper that evening.

  CRIMINAL LAW—THE REV. JAMES MEREST.
  SIR EARDLEY WILMOTasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been drawn to a memorial addressed to the Home Office by the Rev. James Merest; and, if so, whether he will institute an inquiry into his case?
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT: The case of the Rev. James Merest has been for many years before the Home Office, and has been decided over and over again. My Predecessors thought it a case in which they could not interfere, and I see no reason for departing from their view.

  RUSSIA AND CHINA—RUMOURED HOSTILITIES.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I wish to put a Question to the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, as it is in reference to a matter of considerable public interest. Can the hon. Baronet give the House information as to whether there is any foundation for the report that hostilities have broken out between Russia and China?
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE,in reply, said, that a week ago a report reached this country that the Chinese had crossed the Russian Frontier and captured a fort; but that rumour was afterwards declared to be wholly unfounded. Her Majesty's Government had received no official information as to the report appearing in that morning's papers in reference to a collision between Russian and Chinese Forces; but they had received information from St. Petersburg that afternoon, to the effect that it was believed that there was no foundation for the statement.

  DISTRESS (IRELAND)—ALLEGED DEATH FROM STARVATION IN ROSCOMMON.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that a Question had been placed on the Paper which had not been asked him. It was to ask him—
  "Whether the Local Government Board will order a public inquiry into the alleged death from starvation of Mrs. Toolan, of Doon, in the Boyle Union, County Roscommon; whether it is true that only twenty-two families have received out-door relief in the Boyle Union, although it embraces seven parishes, and that in one of them, the parish of Boyle, seven hundred families are receiving relief from a local committee; and, whether a sworn investigation will be ordered into the manner in which the Boyle Board of Guardians and their relieving officers have performed their duties to the destitute poor during the existing distress, in view of charges of neglect made publicly against them?
  He had made inquiry, and had seen a letter from the husband of the poor

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  woman, written to the Board of Guardians, describing the report as slanderous, false, and malicious. The husband said he had plenty of Provisons in his house, and that his deceased wife had a good, bed and proper nursing. With reference to other parts of the Question, he had to say that it was not true that in Boyle Union only 22 families were in receipt of out-door relief; 622 persons were in receipt of out-door relief, and about 700 persons were receiving relief from a local Committee.

MOTION.

  PARLIAMENTARY AFFIRMATION. RESOLUTION.
  MR. GLADSTONE: In moving—
  "That the Orders of the Day be postponed until after the Motion relating to the Parliamentary Affirmation;"
  it may be convenient that I should mention that, in consequence of the state of Public Business, the necessity of getting forward with the Belief of Distress (Ireland) Bill, and at the same time the great difficulty in which we stand for appointing a very early day for it, my right hon. Friend (Mr. W. E. Forster) is obliged to ask you and the House to hold a meeting on Saturday. ["Oh, oh!"] This is only information, which has no relation whatever to the Motion, which is that the Orders of the Day be postponed.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTEwished to know what would be the course of Business to-morrow?
  MR. GLADSTONE: That will depend mainly upon what is done to-night. If we do not get through the Employers' Liability Bill to-night, it must be taken to-morrow.
  MR. GORSTsaid, he thought it would now be convenient if he raised the point of Order of which he had given Notice. He believed that the Resolution of the Prime Minister relating to the question of Parliamentary Affirmation was disorderly, and of a kind that the Speaker ought to refuse to put from the Chair. The course adopted throughout the Brad-laugh incident by the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon (Sir Stafford Northcote) had been to resist any attempt made by the Government to induce the House to break the law for
  1262
  the purpose of smuggling Mr. Bradlaugh into the House. He had done his best to second the laudable efforts of the right hon. Baronet; and he now rose to prevent a new precedent being established that would be dangerous to the Order of the House. The Rule of the House was perfectly simple and clear—the Rule not only of this House, but also of the other House of Parliament—and it was that, if a Question had been considered by the House, and a definite judgment had been pronounced upon it, that substantially the same Question could not be put to the House during the current Session. [Mr. GLADSTONE: Hear, hear!] He was pleased that the Prime Minister should think proper to cheer that statement, as it was what he did not expect. He was quite aware the burden of proving that the Resolution of the Prime Minister was a breach of that Rule rested upon him, and he should proceed in due course to do that; but first let him call the attention of the House to what were said to be the exceptions to that Rule. Now, there were no real exceptions to the Rule at all; and if the Prime Minister's Resolution were put, it would be the first exception that had occurred. There was an interesting case mentioned in Sir Erskine May's book on Parliamentary Usage, which occurred in 1844, when the same subject was considered by the House. It was a case of a letter sent from Italy to Mr. Thomas Duncombe, having been opened under a Warrant by Sir James Graham. A Motion was put respecting the matter, and then an Amendment was put that a Committee should be appointed to consider the particular case of Mr. Buncombe's letter. Both the Motion and the Amendment were withdrawn; and if that had not been so, the House would not have been able to pronounce a judgment on the second Resolution, which was afterwards moved by Mr. Duncombe, that a Select Committee should be appointed for the purpose of inquiring into the particular case of his letter. That was in Order, because the first Motion had been withdrawn. A third Resolution, moved by Mr. Duncombe, was that the House should express its regret that a Secretary of State had opened letters. Of course, that was an entirely different question; and the fourth Resolution was a Motion for an Address to the Crown, praying for a copy of the Warrant authorizing a

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  Secretary of State to open letters to be laid on the Table. A fifth Resolution was to bring in a Bill to secure the inviolability of letters passed through the Post Office. Therefore, although it was five times before the House, no Motion on which the House had expressed a judgment was ever before the House. He would now call attention to two recent precedents. The first was in the year 1870, when Mr. E. Torrens moved—
  "That, in order to arrest the increase of Pauperism, and to relieve the distressed condition of the working classes, it is expedient that measures be adopted for facilitating the Emigration of poor families to British Colonies."
  On the 17th of May in the same year, Mr. W. M. Torrens moved—
  "That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She may direct measures to be taken to provide passages to the Colonies for intending Emigrants, who shall be approved by competent authority, at cheap and uniform rates of charge."
  The Speaker called the attention of the House to that second Resolution, and told the House—
  "There is a Rule that no Question may be proposed which is the same in substance as has been resolved in the affirmative or negative in the same Session."
  Therefore, the proposal for facilitating the emigration of poor families could not be put. Another precedent was set in the last Parliament, when a Resolution was passed by the House with regard to an appointment in the Stationary Office. On the 16th of July, 1877, the House resolved—
  "That, having regard to the recommendations made in 1874 by the Select Committee on Public Departments (Purchases, &c), this House is of opinion that the recent appointment of Controller of Her Majesty's Stationery Office is calculated to diminish the usefulness and influence of Select Committees of this House, and to discourage the interest and zeal of officials employed in the Public Departments of the State."
  On the 23rd of July, 1877, that Resolution was read at the Table of the House, and thereupon a Motion was made to rescind it. It was then resolved—
  "That this House, while most anxious to maintain the usefulness and influence of its Select Committees, and to encourage the interest and zeal of officials employed in the Public Departments of the State, after hearing the further explanation concerning the recent appointment of the Controller of Her Majesty's Stationery Office, withdraws the censure conveyed in the said Resolution."
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  But the same Question was not on that occasion put in the same manner as it was proposed to put the Question to the House to-day. The Prime Minister would be following the precedent set last Session if he were to have the Resolution passed last week read at the Table, and if he were then to propose that, as he had been informed Mr. Bradlaugh had since become a member of the Society of Friends, it was desirable to rescind the Resolution. But let him call the attention of the House to what it was the House discussed. The question that was considered last week was whether Mr. Bradlaugh, who had been returned as a Member of the House, and who claimed for the time being to make a solemn affirmation, should be permitted to make and subscribe either a declaration or an oath under the Parliamentary Oaths Act. There were, in fact, two questions considered by the House—Should Mr. Bradlaugh be permitted to make an Affirmation; or should he, under the circumstances that were mentioned, be permitted to make an Oath? The House expressed on those two questions a definite and final judgment. What that judgment was was not at all germane to his present argument; but what he contended for was, that the House having expressed a definite and final judgment, it therefore became disorderly for any Member of the House, whether the Prime Minister or a private Member, to propose to the House, during the current Session, a Resolution the same, or substantially the same, as the one the House had pronounced judgment upon. They had had an example of the Rule recently. The hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) endeavoured to propose to the House a Motion that was the same as one that had been decided upon. Mr. Labouchere gave Notice on the 22nd of June that he should ask the Speaker whether he should be in Order in moving that Mr. Bradlaugh now be allowed to make an Affirmation, and the Speaker replied that—
  "Such a Motion would be in direct opposition to the vote of the House last night, and would therefore be out of Order, because it is substantially the same Motion which the House has already pronounced judgment upon."
  The hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) was thus put down, and

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  now the Prime Minister was about to propose a Resolution which was substantially the same as the other Question; and he had no doubt that the Speaker, with that impartiality which he always exercised, would put the Prime Minister down in the same manner. Was the Resolution proposed by the Prime Minister the same as that upon which the judgment of the House had been taken? He maintained that it was. The subject of the former Resolution was Mr. Brad-laugh. The subject of the present Resolution was that—
  "Every person returned as a Member of this House, who may claim to be a person for the time being by Law permitted to make a solemn Affirmation or Declaration instead of taking an Oath."
  The Prime Minister's Resolution described a class, but a class of which Mr. Bradlaugh was a member, and of which, at the present moment, he was the only existing member. It described Mr. Bradlaugh, not by name, but by his attributes; and did the Resolution become less disorderly because he was distinguished in that way? It might be said that the Resolution applied not to one man, but to half-a-dozen other persons. Would a Resolution which in itself was disorderly become less disorderly because something was added to it? And if they could not put the Question that Mr. Bradlaugh be permitted to affirm, could they put the Question that half-a-dozen persons be permitted to affirm? Suppose the Question was that "A" should be struck off a Select Committee because he was a lawyer, and that the House rejected such a proposition, was it open to any hon. Member then to propose that all lawyers should be struck off the Committee, even though "A" was the only Member on it? He appealed to the common sense of hon. Members whether the meaning of the Rule was not that that which was substantially the same Question should not be put a second time after the judgment of the House had been expressed? Was not the Resolution of the Prime Minister substantially and really a Resolution that Mr. Bradlaugh be permitted to make an Affirmation? To rescind the Resolution of last week would be perfectly in Order; but to do what the Prime Minister now proposed to do would be to set a precedent that would be disorderly. A Reso-
  1266
  lution which was disorderly did not become the less disorderly because it was decided upon in the solemn conclave of a Cabinet Council. Therefore, it would be his duty, when the Prime Minister rose to propose his Resolution, to ask the Speaker, as a question of Order, whether the Prime Minister could be permitted to put such a Resolution to the House? He thought the House would act very wisely if, instead of postponing the Orders of the Day, it were to proceed now to consider the Employers' Liability Bill.
  MR. GLADSTONE: Having listened to the hon. and learned Gentleman stating an argument which I find no necessity whatever for me to answer, I would beg, Sir, to put the Question to you now whether the Resolution which I am about to propose is a Resolution conformable to the Orders of the House?
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. and learned Member for Chatham has correctly stated the Rule of the House to be that the same Question may not be twice offered in a Session. But the point which the House has to consider is this—whether the Resolution now proposed to be offered to the House is substantially the same as that on which a vote of the House was taken on the 22nd of June. On comparing the two Resolutions, I find essential differences between them. On the former occasion the House imposed a restraint upon a particular individual as to his claim to take the Oath or to make an Affirmation. On the other hand, the Resolution now proposed to be offered to the House is a measure of relief extending to every person returned as a Member of this House, who may claim to be a person for the time being by Law permitted to make a solemn Affirmation or Declaration instead of taking an Oath. In this respect the two Resolutions present marked differences. I may add, further, that the Resolution about to be offered provides that a Member shall be permitted without question to make Affirmation, and that, in doing so, he shall be subject to any liability by statute. I need scarcely remind the House that there are numerous precedents of cases in which the House has modified or partially rescinded former Resolutions. This appears to me to be such a case, and I see no good ground for interposing to prevent the Resolu-

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  tion now proposed to be offered to the House.
  Motion agreed to.
  Ordered, That the Orders of the Day be postponed until after the Motion relating to the Parliamentary Affirmation.—{Mr. Gladstone.)
  MR. GLADSTONE: If I did not reply to the speech of the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite it was from no want of general respect for him, but because I felt that, considering the vehemence and strength of the language he thought himself entitled to use, and considering the extraordinary charges he thought himself warranted in making, and the peremptory manner in which, while professing to appeal to the Chair, he declared on his own authority what was Order and what was not, I felt that, under these circumstances, it would be inexpedient to enter upon a discussion so wide, because it would tend to introduce heat into this debate. There is one thing upon which I feel convinced that we are all agreed, and there is another upon which I hope we may, to a great extent, be agreed. That on which I hope we are all agreed is that there will be no advantage to the dignity of this House in a renewal of lengthened and heated discussion on this occasion. Contenting myself with that brief and simple appeal, I shall endeavour to act in the spirit of the sentiments I have uttered, and avoid every word that can give offence; and not only so, but entirely to refrain entering into the general argument which, as I think, has been completely exhausted. My duty will be to describe the particular situation of the House, to enumerate the facts of the case, and to explain the duty that we think is incumbent on the Government in this matter. We are all agreed on the primary and paramount duty of maintaining the dignity of the House; and the dignity of the House, as it may be considered in many points of view, may also be regarded from one that is fundamental and anterior to all others—that, namely, which concerns the police of the House and the maintenance of the exterior decency of our proceedings. Sir, it is a sense of the stringency of that obligation which has induced my Colleagues to take this matter into their consideration, and which now induces
  1268
  me to submit a proposal to the House, notwithstanding the fact that we were not the majority that brought about this position of affairs, and that we might on every general principle anticipate that that majority would be prepared to deal with that position of affairs which it created. Let us see whether that has been so. I do not question for a moment anything that has been said by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition, or by anyone else, as to the perfect sincerity with which he has declared his views on the decency of certain proceedings. We are agreed that the dignity of the House must be maintained in respect to the decency of its proceedings; but how has that been done for the last four days? As I believe, entirely by the knowledge on the part of a particular individual that the Motion which I am now about to submit to the House was a Motion about to be made. But for that knowledge, I believe I am correct in saying—though I do not possess, and have not sought to possess, any private channels or means of information—that we should have been subjected to the pain and grief of witnessing a repetition of the unbecoming scene which occurred in this House a short time back. Now, let us consider how it is that this duty comes into the hands of the Government, devolving upon it—I may say deputed to it—by those who constituted the recent majority. The majority of the House adopted the Resolution that Mr. Bradlaugh be neither permitted to affirm nor to take the Oath. Mr. Bradlaugh declined obedience to the Resolution; he appeared in the House; he committed an undeniable offence against the Order of the House, and declared his intention to repeat that offence again and again until he had effected his entry into the House of Commons. Upon that, he was committed without opposition—at any rate, almost with the general, if not unanimous, assent of the House—to the custody of the Serjeant at Arms. He remained in that custody a little more than 24 hours; and then the Leader of the Opposition rose in his place, and moved that he be released—that he be released, not upon apology, reparation, or promise not to repeat his offence, but with the full knowledge and clear recollection of his own announcement that that offence would be repeated from time to time,

  1269
  until the object with which it was committed was gained. My right hon. Friend, in making that Motion, said he felt he had vindicated the dignity of the House. It is my absolute duty to accept, however difficult it may be, that assertion of my right hon. Friend, and I do accept it; but I must say I believe he is one of a very few who would consider that to commit Mr. Bradlaugh and release him after 24 hours, and in the face of his announcement that his offence would be repeated toties quoties until his object was gained—I think there are very few who would feel that thereby the dignity of the House was maintained. If I had felt that it was, I should gladly have abstained from troubling the House of Commons now; but what I felt, and what my Colleagues felt, was, on the contrary, that we were subject from day to day to a certain and obvious violation of the dignity and decency of our proceedings, and that it was necessary for us—the majority of the Leaders of the Opposition having apparently considered it their duty to withdraw—to make a proposal to the House. Let me first say that I do not see any means of supporting our dignity or of upholding the Order of our proceedings by a repetition of what was done last week. Were Mr. Bradlaugh to repeat the act which led to his committal, I presume someone would move for a repetition of the committal. How long would the committal last? And would anything be gained to anyone if again the Motion were to be made, after another period of 24 hours, to release Mr. Bradlaugh? I can see no way of deliverance from the difficulty in which we are placed by this method of committal one day and release without apology or amendment on the next. Then it is said by some that the remedy ought to be sought by the method of legislation. I do not presume to restrain any Members of the House in that respect. If they can see their way to make a proposal, as many of the most important subjects relating to the Law of Parliament have been repeatedly dealt with by private Members, far be it from us to shut off from any Members the opportunity of moving or rendering a service to the House. We do not see that any advantage can possibly arise from our attempting anything of this kind; and on these three grounds, each of which I think to be conclusive,
  1270
  it seems to us that whenever a question of the alteration of the Parliamentary Oaths Act is raised, it is desirable that it should be discussed in cold blood. Discussed in cold blood it cannot be, if it be known, if it be notorious, that the immediate purpose for which that legislation is proposed is the admission of Mr. Bradlaugh. In the second place, we must bear in mind the lessons that have been taught by recent facts. We must recollect that, while legal and quasi- legal arguments have been offered by some Gentlemen on that side of the House in support of the recent Resolution, there have been a far larger number of speeches which have had no reference to those arguments at all, but which have bluntly and plainly expressed the sentiments of the Petitions presented before I rose, that we should not allow an Atheist to sit in the House of Commons. We know perfectly well that the legislation proposed by us on such a subject must necessarily raise, I will not say intemperate, but I will say lengthened discussions; because a principle of that kind, taking root in the minds and hearts of men, appears to them both to justify and to require their compelling the Parliament, by what they think is a legitimate use of their privileges, to enter largely into matters of such depth and importance We, therefore, feel that for us to make such a proposal with our eyes open would be to impede, in such a degree as to be equivalent to sacrificing, a great deal of the important Public Business we have brought under the consideration of the House. But, lastly, we should fail in that which is the main object in inducing us to move, because we have no reason to believe—and I do not believe—during those lengthened debates, with all the feeling they would excite, with all the uncertainty as to the ultimate fate of the measure, here or "elsewhere," that the dignity of this House, and the decency of our proceedings would be maintained. We believe that we should forfeit, at all events, the primary object we have in view—namely, the avoiding a repetition of the painful scenes we have already witnessed. That being so, we have considered whether there was any other course which we might adopt. Now, there was a point in the speeches of hon. Gentlemen where it appeared we were, to some extent, in contact.

  1271
  We are now going to propose this Resolution—
  "That every person returned as a Member of this House, who may claim to be a person for the time being by Law permitted to make a solemn Affirmation or Declaration instead of taking an Oath, shall henceforth (notwithstanding so much of the Resolution adopted by this House on the 22nd day of June last as relates to Affirmation) be permitted, without question, to make and subscribe a solemn Affirmation in the form subscribed on 'The Parliamentary Oaths Act, 1866,' as altered by 'The Promissory Oaths Act, 1868,' subject to any liability by statute."
  The words to which I call attention are "without question." I was a watcher and a hearer of the recent debates, and it appeared to me to be accepted and believed by a large number of Members of this House—I do not scruple to admit that it was believed by me—that Mr. Bradlaugh himself had forced upon the House of Commons a knowledge of his Atheistic opinions. Let us see how that stands. In the first place, hon. Gentlemen will perceive that we have not endeavoured needlessly to challenge a conflict with those who lately formed the majority. The main contention, I think, which formed the substance of their speeches was that Mr. Bradlaugh ought not to be allowed to take the Oath. It was with regard to the Oath that that feeling was principally excited, And not only was feeling excited, but there was a sentiment widely prevailing that taking the Oath with the declaration of opinion that the words which made it an oath were words of no force and value, would be a profanation. My difficulty has been as to the jurisdiction of the House. I do not believe in the jurisdiction of the House. I approach this question with no foregone conclusion; but the more I examined it, the more I became convinced that the House has no jurisdiction. If I thought the House were possessed of that jurisdiction—if I thought it were my duty to say whether Mr. Bradlaugh would or would not truly and substantially take the Oath by coming to this Table and reciting the words, but, at the same time, making known in connection with the fact of his swearing that the words were of no value, my opinion would be that that was not taking the Oath at all. But the whole of that part of the question, which I believe to have been at the root and ground of the votes of
  1272
  many hon. Members, we pass by. It is not necessary to raise it, and we refrain from raising it. We do not interfere with it. But with regard to that portion of the Resolution with which my present proposal does interfere, I believe that it was, to a large extent, debated under a misapprehension. It was not known to the House then, as we know now—and I only knew it when the evidence taken before the second Committee was printed—that, although Mr. Bradlaugh made an indication of an Act of Parliament, which was equivalent to a statement of opinion, it was not a voluntary or spontaneous act on his part. We now know that it was the result of questions put to him. I do not for a moment raise any doubt as to the propriety of those questions under the circumstances; but I must point out that the speeches of hon. Gentlemen opposite were speeches which, in my opinion, would not have been made had they been aware at the time that Mr. Bradlaugh himself simply claimed to affirm. I refer now to the evidence of Sir Erskine May, who stated at the very commencement of the evidence taken before the recent Committee that Mr. Bradlaugh simply claimed to affirm at the Table, and that the terms used by him contained no necessary reference whatever to his Atheistic opinions. Now, the strength of the contention made by hon. Gentlemen opposite was this—"We should have been content"—nay, there were hon. Gentlemen who said—"We should have been extremely gratified if Mr. Bradlaugh had been content to keep his opinions in the shade; but he has thrust them upon us; he has taken us into his confidence, and has made us cognizant of them by his own act; and that, having made us cognizant of them, we are so possessed and seized of them that all our proceedings must be regarded as founded on them." The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson), said—
  "The hon. Member might have taken his seat without opposition, but he had chosen to obtrude himself on the House and the country."
  That means, to obtrude his opinions. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford, who had conspicuously proved his own impartiality as well as sincerity, is reported to have said—

  1273
  "It would not have been competent for any Member to go back upon Mr. Bradlaugh's election speeches; but the matter stands differently now that Mr. Bradlaugh has claimed to be exempt from the Oath, on the ground that he was a person on whom it was not binding."
  That claim was not made spontaneously by Mr. Bradlaugh. Mr. Bradlaugh's words, as you will find on reference to the evidence of Sir Erskine May, were words which in no way indicated his Atheism, but which left the question perfectly unsolved whether he was claiming under the statutes relating to judicial Affirmation, or under the laws which relate to Affirmations taken at this Table. Another hon. and learned Gentleman, the Mover of the Amendment (Sir Hardinge Giffard), said—
  "It was impossible not to see that Mr. Bradlaugh's views had been thrust upon the House, and that important distinction must be obvious to everyone."
  I think I shall carry with me universal assent when I say that a man thrusts nothing upon the House but that which he himself spontaneously asserts at this Table, provided what he asserts is in the terms of the Act of Parliament, and neither falls short of it nor goes beyond it. That is an assertion I make on the credit of the very highest authority with reference to what was said by Mr. Brad-laugh—an assertion which cannot, I believe, be in the slightest degree impeached or impugned. If that be so, I ask is there any Gentleman in this House, on whatever side he may sit, or whatever opinions he may entertain, who will think that there ought to be visited upon Mr. Bradlaugh, as if it had been his own spontaneous act, inferences drawn from matter which he did not tender, which, so far as it depended upon him, he would have kept back, but which was drawn from him by questions put by the Officers at the Table? I believe, therefore, many Gentlemen have given their vote under a misapprehension as to the facts of the case, as to the obtrusion by Mr. Bradlaugh of the opinions which have given so much offence, and as to the effect of those opinions on the duty and obligations of the House. Now, these are the grounds on which we think that a Motion of this kind should be made—a Motion which I trust will settle this painful controversy; but a Motion which I think has a yet greater merit—an effectual preventive force for
  1274
  the future. It was no mere technical distinction, Sir, which was observed by you in the Chair, that this Motion is made so as to save us from, I hope, a remote risk of the recurrence of scenes and circumstances so painful and difficult that even the Leaders who bring them about are unable to deal with them, but find themselves, in the fulfilment of their duties, obliged to throw the responsibility of finding a remedy upon those who offered resistance to them. The foundation on which this Resolution rests is this. It is not well that any person duly elected, and tendering himself in the terms of the Act of Parliament at this Table to swear or affirm, should be precluded from taking his place in this House—subject to the liabilities incumbent on him by statute—through any question put to him on behalf of the House. That, Sir, is the simple issue which I present to the mind of the House, and I detach it altogether from the specialities of Mr. Bradlaugh's opinions. There might have been other opinions which might have been elicited by questions from persons in other circumstances. I care not what the opinions were; we stand upon this point—that where the law has laid down a rule, where the constituency have exercised their privilege, where their proceedings are unimpeachable in form and substance, and where the man whom they have chosen neither says nor does anything in this House of his own accord, spontaneously, deviating either to the right or left from the line pointed out by the Act of Parliament—we say that it is not well for the general interests of the country, it is not well for the interests or character of this House, that such a person, whatever his opinions, on presenting himself should be stopped on his road to his seat by the act of any person proceeding to question him on the part of the House. It is well that he should be left to be tried by the tribunals of his country, which have full means for conducting his trial, and which will acquit or condemn him according to law.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That every person returned as a Member of this House, who may claim to be a person for the time being by Law permitted to make a solemn Affirmation or Declaration instead of taking an Oath, shall henceforth (notwithstanding so much of the Resolution adopted by this House on the 22nd of June last as relates

  1275
  to Affirmation) he permitted, without question, to make and subscribe a solemn Affirmation in the form prescribed by the 'Parliamentary Oaths Act, 1866,' as altered by 'The Promissory Oaths Act, 1868,' subject to any liability by statute."—{Mr. Gladstone.)
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE,in rising to move the following Amendment:—
  "That this House cannot adopt a Resolution which virtually rescinds the Resolution passed by it on the 22nd day of June last,"
  said: Mr. Speaker, I most entirely concur with the Prime Minister in the observations with which he opened his speech; and I trust the great body of the House also concur with him in desiring that we should debate this question in a calm and uncontroversial spirit, as far as that is possible, and that we should abstain from re-opening many of the questions which we discussed on the previous occasion. It will be my endeavour, in the few remarks I shall offer to the House, to present them in that spirit, and to observe the cautions given us by the Prime Minister. But, at the same time, while I admit that my right hon. Friend's speech was characterized by a good deal of moderation in many respects, I could not but notice that throughout his remarks—and very pointedly in some parts of them—he did, in measured but, at the same time, very significant language, endeavour to cast on Members who sit on this side of the House—on those of us who have already taken part in these debates, and on those whom he was pleased to describe as "the majority"—a responsibility which, on their part and on my own, I beg respectfully to disclaim; and I shall find it necessary to dispute at least one of the propositions on which he rested his case. He made an observation, in which he said that those whom he described as "the majority" had thrown on the Government the responsibility of dealing with the situation they had created; and if you were to judge of what has taken place from the description which the Prime Minister gives of it, you would think that from the beginning the matter had been taken up and dealt with by those whom he describes by that convenient term "the majority," and that the Government had had nothing to do with the matter until after the majority had completed its work after its own clumsy fashion, and had found itself too weak and
  1276
  too incompetent to deal with the result—and that that majority had thrown over upon the Government the task and the duty of preserving the Order of the House; and, founded upon that representation of the facts—which I contend to be an entire misrepresentation—the Prime Minister has offered to the House an argument for taking a step which I shall endeavour presently to show is a very serious and a very questionable step, on the ground that it is the only one the Government can see adequate to preserve the peace, and maintain what he calls the police of the House. Now, I very seriously doubt the wisdom of relying on such an argument as that. I hope the House will take into consideration what is the effect and meaning of an argument addressed to us in such a form as we have already heard, warning us that unless a certain course is pursued by the House we must expect a renewal of scenes derogatory to the character and dignity of the House. The speech of my right hon. Friend rested far too much on that foundation; and I, for my part, though not indisposed to attach a certain amount of weight to a fair consideration of Order, entirely disclaim that as a ground for a step which would in itself be inconvenient and improper. Let me for one moment ask how far the statement is correct, that this is a matter in which the Government were not concerned until the time when what the right hon. Gentleman is pleased to call the majority threw it upon them? What is the history of the case? It is said that there was no obtrusion by Mr. Bradlaugh of the circumstances under which he claimed to affirm before the House until he was questioned. I will not enter into that matter. I will remind hon. Gentlemen that Mr. Bradlaugh had given Notice even before he made his appearance at that Table—he had given Notice to you, Mr. Speaker, as the chief authority of the House—that he intended to take the step, and he came forward with the cognizance certainly of the Government that he intended to take the step. I presume it will not be denied by the Government that they were aware, before he presented himself, that it was his intention to claim the right to affirm; and they were also aware that you, Mr. Speaker, had great doubts whether he should be allowed to affirm.

  1277
  I believe they had even consulted their Law Officers on the point. Whether that was so or not, the step was taken by Mr. Bradlaugh coming forward and claiming to affirm, and being asked a question, which, in a few moments, I will endeavour to show it was necessary to ask him—namely, on what ground he made that claim? And having given his reason to you, Mr. Speaker, a Member, the Representative of the Government in this House, made a proposal that this matter should be referred to a Select Committee for consideration; and in the full belief that that course was recommended by the Government and that they were prepared to follow it, I immediately seconded that Resolution and agreed to the appointment of a Committee. Well, Sir, then the Government were seized of the matter from the beginning. And how did they deal with it? When was it the next step was taken? The next step was taken when the Committee reported. That Committee reported by a small majority, but still by a majority, against Mr. Bradlaugh's interpretation of the statute, and thereupon Mr. Bradlaugh came to the Table and proposed to take the Oath. No step was taken to prevent him by Her Majesty's Government; but an independent Member raised the question whether it was competent for Mr. Bradlaugh to take the Oath? The Government thereupon again, and for the second time, took the matter into their own hands, by suggesting—I think by proposing—the appointment of another Committee, to consider the question whether he ought or ought not to be allowed to take the Oath, or rather whether the House was competent to interfere to prevent his doing so? Therefore, we had that step taken by the Government, and certainly it was taken not upon the responsibility of those whom the Prime Minister now describes as "the majority," because I and many of my Friends opposed the proposal. We maintained that it was not necessary to refer such a question as that to a Committee; and we proposed that a vote should be come to by the House on the question whether Mr. Bradlaugh should be allowed to take the Oath or not. The Government voted against us; they beat us, and appointed a Committee, and they waited until the time came for the Report of the Committee. I think it is a little too
  1278
  much for the right hon. Gentleman to speak as if all this were matter quite beside the question. Well, Sir, the hon. Member, the sitting Member for Northampton, thereupon did what it was natural, indeed, for him to do—he moved a Resolution, which was to the effect that Mr. Bradlaugh should be allowed to affirm; and upon that my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Launces-ton (Sir Hardinge Giffard) moved an Amendment, which eventuated in the Resolution, which was adopted after two nights' debate. That undoubtedly was resisted, and very strongly resisted, by the Government; but it was adopted. I really do not know that we ought to apologize for adopting a Resolution of that kind. I am quite aware that in our position we are looked upon with a certain amount of jealousy on the part of the Government and its Supporters when we venture to put forward and maintain opinions of our own. We are perfectly aware that we are in a minority; and we are aware, that so far as our own strength is concerned, it is utterly useless to put it forth against the power of the Government, wielding, as it does, one of the largest majorities ever known in this House. I really do not know that we ought to go further than to make that acknowledgment. I do not think it is necessary for us to apologize for our existence. If we do exist, it is not at all necessary to apologize for exercising our own opinion and judgment upon an important question submitted to us. We could not help seeing that the course proposed by the hon. Member the sitting Member for Northampton was one open to objection, and we could not but support the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Launceston. In that we had the concurrence and assent of a large number of Gentlemen who do not belong to the Party which sit in this quarter of the House. Having done that, and having resisted the proposals of the Government, I admit it was clearly fair we should be asked—"Now, how far do you mean to go, and how far do you mean to carry this victory which you have achieved?" On the day following, Mr. Bradlaugh presented himself, and was told of the carrying of the Resolution, and that it was necessary he should withdraw. When a question was raised

  1279
  as to whether anything more was to be done, I am not surprised that the Prime Minister put it to those who voted in the majority the night before—"Is there anything you have to propose?" I took upon myself the office of spokesman, not as speaking for all the Gentlemen who had voted in the majority the night before, but feeling it my duty as one in a position of some responsibility in this House. I took it upon myself, first of all, to say that we thought the decision of the House was clear, and we did not wish to add to it. The consequence was that Mr. Bradlaugh, as was necessarily the case, was called upon to withdraw. He declined; he refused—I will not say disrespectfully, but in a firm manner—to obey the Orders of the House; and it did seem to me that at that point the duty of preserving the order and dignity of the House ought to have reverted to the Prime Minister. I did not take upon myself voluntarily the duty of making any proposal. I made the proposal I did because the Prime Minister abstained, and abstained most distinctly and markedly, from making it; and it was impossible that you, Sir, could be left unsupported. It was clearly the duty of someone to take that step; I took that step, feeling it to be my duty, as I still believe it was. I was obliged, in support of your authority, and of the authority and dignity of the House, to make that Motion, which I made with great pain and reluctance, that Mr. Bradlaugh should be committed to the custody of the Serjeant at Arms. I made it in order to show that the House was prepared to support to the extreme its own right and its own authority, and to vindicate its Orders. Mr. Bradlaugh claimed to have a legal right to do what he was prevented doing. He asserted that the House was taking a step beyond its legal powers; he resisted to the last. I do not blame him; I think he was quite right in bringing the matter to that issue. It was so brought; a distinct claim was put forward on the one hand, and there was a distinct assertion of authority on the other. At that point I considered my functions terminated; and I thought it right the following clay to put a Question to the Prime Minister, and to ask whether the Government intended to do anything in the matter? Well, they said they did not. Or, rather,
  1280
  the right hon. Gentleman said he had not yet consulted his Colleagues, which struck me as a rather remarkable statement. Considering the very great importance of the crisis, I should have thought he would have taken, at all events, the trouble to consult his Colleagues as to what he ought to do. That being so, I considered my functions in the matter were now terminated, and I moved the discharge of Mr. Bradlaugh, as I should do again in the circumstances. What was the language of the Prime Minister on that occasion? The Prime Minister said he thought the matter had been fairly brought to an issue—that Mr. Bradlaugh had fairly raised his claim by refusing to withdraw, when he considered himself illegally ordered, until he was arrested; and the House had fairly asserted its claim by the step taken in committing him. Then, said the right hon. Gentleman, the question takes a new form—or a new issue is raised.
  MR. GLADSTONE: The new issue raised was the question of declining to obey the Order of the Chair.
  SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE: I have not the words before me. At any rate, at that point the question had entered upon a new phase; and it was now a question of what Mr. Bradlaugh would do, and how the House would deal with him. I did not mean to have gone into all this question of the police argument. I hoped it might be unnecessary; but it has been forced upon me by the course which has been taken by the right hon. Gentleman. Mr. Bradlaugh made a claim, believing he had a right; the House believed it had the right to prevent him doing what he claimed to do. The matter was brought to a final issue, and Mr. Bradlaugh put it to the House in such a way as to ascertain that the House was serious. There the incident closed. And now, what is his position? Does he still advance his claim? I suppose he does. How does he mean to enforce it? Are we to assume against any man until we have evidence which shows by his own acts that he intends to enforce a claim of law which has been fully raised and fully disputed, by anything in the nature of intimidation or violence? We should be doing injustice to Mr. Bradlaugh to suppose so. Yet this is the argument on which the right hon. Gentleman bases this Resolution. He says

  1281
  the great argument for dealing with this question is that it is necessary to preserve the order of the House, and we shall not preserve the order of the House if we have violence and unauthorized interruption. Mr. Bradlaugh had the right to be here up to and at the moment at which he was ordered to withdraw; the making him withdraw was the one step which had then to be taken, but if Mr. Bradlaugh enters the House again it will become a very different question. We were told that the scene of the other day would be repeated again and again. I do not know whether that is a correct statement. Is such a thing possible? The order that has been given is, I conceive, a binding order—a continuing order. I imagine, Sir, you do not require—would not require—a further order to be made to Mr. Bradlaugh to withdraw. I imagine you would consider yourself entitled to give such police instructions to the officers of the House as would prevent his interfering again. I must not anticipate these matters; I only wish to enter my protest against an argument which seems to me a most dangerous argument. Why, Sir, what did my right hon. Friend say as to the possibility of an amendment of the law? He said that an amendment of the Parliamentary Oaths Act ought to be undertaken coolly and deliberately, and that it cannot be so if upon the decision of that great question hangs the decision whether Mr. Bradlaugh is or is not to be admitted. Are we, then, to suppose that we can settle a question of this sort, which will have an important permanent effect upon the character and proceedings of this House, in a spirit of calmness and coolness, under the menace that if we do not deal with this question in a particular way, Mr. Bradlaugh will take steps which will put us in the position in which we shall have to maintain order by again committing him to custody, probably without the active assistance of the Government? Now, Sir, I have said as much as I think I need say, and, indeed, I apologise to the House for having said so much on that part of the question; but it seemed to me necessary. I wish now to address myself to the point raised in the Amendment of which I have given Notice, to the effect that the House cannot adopt a Resolution which virtually rescinds the Resolution passed by it on
  1282
  the 22nd of June last. I need not say that I entirely agree with you, Sir, in the judgment you have pronounced just now with regard to the technical question which was raised by the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Gorst). But whatever may be the technical position, the argument of my hon. and learned Friend seemed to be conclusive as far as it referred to the virtual rescinding of a Resolution passed by the House. I ask, is this not a proposal to virtually rescind a Resolution duly passed? The Resolution was one in two parts, relating both to the Affirmation and the Oath. How came that Resolution to be passed? It was not an original Resolution; it was an Amendment upon another Resolution moved by the sitting Member for Northampton, to the effect that Mr. Bradlaugh be allowed to affirm. That was distinctly negatived; and the division that was taken was not on the Amendment of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Launceston (Sir Hardinge Giffard), but on the original Resolution. But this Resolution, if passed, will exactly do the very thing which the hon. Member for Northampton asked us to do last week, and which the House refused to do. It is quite true that it is apparently covered by the general terms of the Resolution; but I think if the House will look at the matter for one moment, they will see that the terms of the Resolution are such that they confine its operation to Mr. Bradlaugh. It proposes that every person returned as a Member to this House who may claim to be a person for the time being entitled to affirm may affirm without question asked. What is meant by "every person?" I will take my own case. Suppose I came into the House and went up to the Table after this Resolution had passed, and claimed to be allowed by law to make a solemn Affirmation instead of an Oath. I am not to be asked any questions, as I understand; but am to be allowed to make an Affirmation, "subject to any liability by statute." Now, what is the meaning of that? That if, after making the Affirmation, anybody proceeds against me for penalties, I shall say—"I claimed that I had a right to do so." "How do you prove your claim?" I should be asked in a Court of Law. "Are you a Quaker or a Moravian?" "No." "Have you any doubt as to the validity of the Oath?" "No."

  1283
  "On what do you rest your claim?" "Well, I do not know. I have nothing to rest it on;" and thus I should subject myself to severe penalties. I want to know, am I correct? Will that be the operation of the Resolution? [Mr. GLADSTONE: Not at all.] Then, will the right hon. Gentleman tell me where I am in error? If I do claim, am I never to be challenged afterwards? It seems to me that there is no meaning in the Resolution, unless it be that the taking of an Oath is to be done away with for ever. I will assume that the person who affirms defends himself in an action for penalties and ventures his seat by his claim of right. Has Mr. Bradlaugh such a right? He says he has under the Statute which enables a person to give evidence in a Court of Justice, and which Statute gives the right,
  "If the presiding Judge is satisfied that the taking of an oath shall have no binding effect upon his conscience."
  But how can he do this if no question is to he put? Mr. Bradlaugh may possibly say that individually he is clear in the matter; because it has been admitted more than once in Courts of Justice that he was a person so entitled to affirm, and that, therefore, so far as he is concerned, it is his privilege to do so; and that would be an ingenious way out of the difficulty. But that would not be an answer in the case of one who, having just the same claim, had never been in the Courts of Justice. How is such a one to get the advantage of this claim? Clearly by having the question put to him by the Clerk at the Table. And I presume that when the question was put to Mr. Bradlaugh by the Clerk—"On what ground do you claim to affirm?" he was only doing that which was absolutely necessary in order to ascertain what was meant by the claim. I do not see how you are to get out of that, or how you are to show that the Resolution is not confined to Mr. Bradlaugh. I will go a step further, and say—Suppose you do pass this Resolution and get the matter established in the way you desire—that Mr. Bradlaugh claims to affirm and that the case is brought to trial. Are you out of your difficulty? Not at all. You make, or may make, your difficulty ten times worse. What if the Court should say with the majority of the Committee you appointed—Mr. Bradlaugh had no
  1284
  right to claim to affirm, and he is subject to penalties and his seat is vacated. What will you do then? Suppose his constituents return him and he comes here; what are you to do? Or suppose he does not seek re-election; will not the constituency say—"We find ourselves seriously aggrieved in this matter, for here is the Member we wish to return excluded, and excluded by the law as expounded by the Courts of Justice." What are you going to do? Are you going to amend or alter the law? You will have pressure put upon you to legislate; for, depend upon it, you will not get out of the difficulty by any of these ingenious Resolutions. A statement, I am reminded, appeared in one of the morning papers which was entirely unauthorized, and one which I do not accept, to the effect that the Conservative Party were about to make a proposal for legislation in this matter. What I am prepared to say is this—that if you deal with it at all you must deal with it by legislation. How was it that these matters were dealt with before? What was the course pursued when Baron Rothschild and Mr. Alderman Salomons came and proposed to take their seats in this House? Did the House proceed by Resolution? Nothing of the sort. The House refused, and for eight years refused, to admit them into the House, and those Gentlemen represented constituencies at least as important as Northampton, which remained without Members while the question was being discussed and legislation was being considered. Well, you are now proposing a wholly different course. You are proposing to deal with the matter by a Resolution which I venture to think, with all submission, is beyond the competency of the House of Commons. ["No!"] Well, that is, perhaps, a strong expression to use, as I do not know whether it is possible to limit the competency of the House of Commons. But let the House consider seriously what position they will be in if they set this precedent. When Mr. Alderman Salomons took his seat in the House against the orders and directions of the Speaker, and resisted for a time the attempts made to remove him from the House, he was proceeded against in a Court of Law, damages were recovered against him, and the matter occasioned no great inconvenience. But if you ad-

  1285
  mit a Member to take his seat here with a warning that afterwards he will be subject to an action in a Court of Law, you cannot afford to sit by as you did in the case of the action against Mr. Alderman Salomons, because, in this case, the House would be a party to the matter; it would become a question of the Privilege of the House, and it may open an extremely inconvenient question between the Courts and the House of Commons. What the consequences of such a collision as that might be I do not venture to foretell; but this I am sure of—that if it is the wish of the House to maintain their Privileges, they should be very cautious how they exercise those Privileges. The step now asked to be taken is one which is somewhat humiliating to the House of Commons. It is that they should virtually rescind a Resolution debated, not hastily, not in a small House, but in a full House, and carried by a large majority—a majority consisting not of Gentlemen drawn exclusively from one side of it—and after two nights' discussion and after two Committees had sat upon the question—I say it would be humiliating to the House to rescind their Resolution upon the invitation of the Prime Minister, grounded upon something very like a threat, or the intimation of a threat, that possible consequences might ensue damaging to the order and peace of the House. I believe that if the House sets this precedent they will before long have occasion to repent it.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House cannot adopt a Resolution which virtually rescinds the Resolution passed by it on the 22nd day of June last,"—(Sir Stafford Northcote,)
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. MARRIOTTsaid, that the question before the House was not confined simply to rules and regulations; but it affected materially the rights and privileges of those constituencies in which new Members had as great an interest as the oldest Member of that House. The gist of the matter, as laid down by the Prime Minister, was that the House, in adopting a Resolution passed on a
  1286
  previous occasion, had gone beyond its jurisdiction. It was, of course, perfectly clear that Parliament had a right to make laws; but it had not the power to explain them after they had been made, and certainly no one branch, either the Crown, or the Lords, or the Commons, had the power of explaining Acts passed by those Estates. That was alone the province of the Executive, as represented in this instance by Her Majesty's Judges. It seemed to him that if this Resolution were rejected, they not only denied the right of Members duly elected to sit in the House, but they proposed to impose a qualification beyond that imposed by Statute Law. The question of law was disputed by eminent lawyers; and it seemed to him to be the duty of the Judges and the Executive, rather than of the House, to interpret the law. By the Resolution of the House last week, Mr. Bradlaugh was in the position of a man denied a legal right, the opportunity of applying for a legal remedy, for he could not raise the question in the Courts in the form of an action against the Serjeant at Arms. Had he been a voter for Northampton, he should have voted against Mr. Bradlaugh; but were that Gentleman to be returned to the constituency, he would now, if he had a vote, give it to him, not in support of his opinions, but in vindication of the rights of the constituents, which rights the House would have tried to take away. What the Opposition wanted to say in the matter was that they would not have Mr. Bradlaugh in the House because he was an Atheist; but they were afraid to take the courageous and straightforward course of saying so by a Resolution. They tried to circumvent the question by assuming the function of interpreters of the law—a function belonging to the Judicature, and which Parliament had never before undertaken. It seemed to him that the proposition of the Government appeared the only reasonable way in which the point could be brought to a proper decision, and he, therefore, supported it.
  LORD HENRY SCOTT,who had an Amendment on the Paper to the 2nd Resolution to the effect—
  "That it is necessary that the said Acts be amended in order to entitle such person to make an Affirmation in lieu of taking an Oath,"
  denied that the difficulty in which the House was placed was due to the action

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  of the Opposition. From the moment that Mr. Bradlaugh was returned it was foreseen that the difficulty would arise, and it was a great pity that the Liberal Party gave the countenance they did to his candidature. He had received the open patronage of the Leaders of that Party, and a noted Nonconformist telegraphed to the electors of Northampton to elect him rather than allow a Tory to get in. When he presented himself and claimed to affirm, the Government knew perfectly well that he did not come within the category of persons entitled by law to make an Affirmation; and if it had not been for the Party bias which they and their supporters imported into the matter the House would never have been placed in its present difficulty. It had been said that Members on the Opposition side ought to produce some legislation for the purpose of enabling Mr. Bradlaugh to take his seat. He submitted, however, that this was not the duty of the Opposition. He maintained that it was not possible for the House to do anything to enable Mr. Bradlaugh to take his seat except by legislation. The relief which the law allowed, to make an Affirmation, was confined to persons who held some religious belief; and, although there were persons sitting in the House whose views involved the negation of religious belief, this was the first time that an avowed Atheist had ever come into the House himself, thrusting his objectionable opinions under the notice of the House. It was well known that Mr. Bradlaugh had declared in a Court of Law that an oath would not be binding on his conscience; but because a learned Judge allowed him to affirm in the interests of justice, that was no reason why Parliament should permit him to take the same course. If Mr. Bradlaugh had ground of complaint against anyone it was against Her Majesty's Government for not adopting the manly and straightforward way of meeting his claims by legislation, instead of trying to get him into the House by a back way. The Resolution of the Government not only rescinded that at which the House had already arrived, but it authorized an illegal act, or one of very doubtful legality, to be done by Mr. Bradlaugh, and repeated by anyone else holding his views in future. This was the only instance on record in which
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  an attempt had been made to make a Standing Order which would allow an act of doubtful legality to be done. He had no sympathy with Mr. Bradlaugh; but he thought the Government had treated him with gross injustice from beginning to end of this matter. If the Resolution were passed he would still be liable to an action at law; and it was but the beginning of a long controversy, which he (Lord Henry Scott) would prefer to see dealt with in an honest and straightforward manner, and not by the course proposed by the Government.
  MR. P. J. SMYTH: Sir, as I had not an opportunity of speaking on the former occasion, I hope the House will extend its indulgence to me a short time. Now, it seems to me that neither the Resolution nor the Amendment, nor both together, raise the true issue. It is impossible to dissociate the personality of Mr. Bradlaugh from the question before the House. The Motion has special reference to him and to others, if, un-happily such there be, who share, or funcy they share, his views. If this were a question of civil and religious liberty, I would say—"Amend the Forms of Parliament for the acccommodation of Mr. Bradlaugh, and throw wide your doors for the admission of him and others." Civil liberty I take to mean that all men in this country are equal in the eye of the law; and by religious liberty I understand the right of every man to worship God according to his conscience. No one proposes to deprive Mr. Bradlaugh of any civil or religious right; but Parliament, having been broadly challenged, is bound to defend against him and others the principle of its own existence. No new test is sought to be imposed. The test of Theism has existed always. It is implied in every act and in every form of Parliament. It pervades the whole body of the Constitution, of which, like the soul in man, it is the animating principle. Is the prayer with which Parliament opens each day its proceedings an empty formula; or is it not an humble action of acknowledgment of its absolute dependence on an Allwise Providence? Does the phrase quoted in the Preamble of every Act, "the Lords spiritual and temporal," signify only the union between Church and State, and not the higher and better union between religion

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  and the law? The legislators among the most ancient peoples sought a religious sanction for their laws and placed them under the protection of their divinities. Thus it was among the Egyptians; thus it was with Lycurgus among the Lacedemonians; thus it was with Numa among the Romans. A belief in the Deity under the idea of Supreme Legislator has always existed. It is as natural to man as social life; and I hold that a man who repudiates that belief, and becomes the active propagandist of doctrines as subversive of social life as of the Constitution of the Realm, is disqualified to discharge the duties of a legislator. Parliament is not merely a political machine; Parliament is, in its highest aspect, a religious institution, whose every act must be a conformity with the moral law, the foundation and source of which is God. Admit the Atheist, and you will have, in course of time, Atheistical legislation. The legislators of one generation, perhaps the present, will sow the wind; and mankind, in the next, will reap the whirlwind. Thus came the excesses of the French Revolution, the seeds of which were sown, in the first instance, by the speculations of English philosophers. Eight years ago the right hon. Gentleman then, as now, Prime Minister, delivered a remarkable address before the University College of Liverpool, in which he uplifted the strong voice of a conscientious man in defence of Christianity assailed. His deep conviction of impending danger could alone have induced the right hon. Gentleman to use the language of solemn warning that characterized that memorable address. Within these eight years the danger has not diminished. The wolf is at the gate; and instead of uniting to drive him away, the British Legislature discuss the formalities with which he shall be received within the fold. A Member may be, or may have been, returned to this House who cannot find it in his conscience to tolerate the Almighty; and we are warned in the name of religious liberty that in order to satisfy his conscientious scruples we must efface the religious character of Parliament. A new Affirmation Book shall be prepared in lieu of the Bible, on which shall be emblazoned the legend—"God expunged by special desire;" Party nomenclature shall be enriched by the addition of the Swearers
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  and the Affirmers. In Oath and Affirmation allegiance to the temporal Sovereignty is obligatory; but allegiance to the King of Kings is a matter of discretion; and this is religious toleration, religious liberty. Material progress and political improvement apart, the distinguishing characteristics of the age are a decline in high intellect and an increase in audacious impiety. I trust that the House of Commons will not be induced to alter its time-honoured rule for the purpose of admitting to a seat in this House anyone, no matter by which constituency returned, who shall openly dispute the Divine origin of the moral law, and the authoritative sanctions of its behests. Even that law requires for its sustainment the aids and defences which religion alone can supply. Without them it would fail, the idea of duty would disappear, and mankind would be left dependent for their moral government on a scientific morality sustained by a human religion. My hon. Friends and Colleagues from Ireland, whatever the course which they may take upon this question, will be mindful, I know, of the honour of their country. Whatever the faults of our countrymen—and they are many, and serious enough—they are redeemed by the fidelity with which, during sorrowful centuries, they have clung to their nationality and religion combined. They have justified the description of Burke—that a nation is a moral essence, not a geographical definition. So long as that essence remains uncontaminated and undefiled, the nation lives, though it may be in chains. But once contaminate it by foreign mixtures, by false theories, and by pernicious doctrines, the process of national decay is rapid, and most fatal, perhaps, in its operation amongst Catholic people long subject to misgovernment.
  MR. BORLASE: The apology which it is fitting and customary that a new Member should offer who ventures for the first time to claim the attention of this honourable House is rendered more than usually necessary in the present instance by the almost unprecedented gravity of the subject in debate. Occasions there may have been—and doubtless there have been in plenty—when a new Member, on taking his seat, finds himself face to face at once with questions vital to what he feels and knows to be his country's good; but when I take

  1291
  into account the daily-increasing complexity of those social problems which are unceasingly stirring around us; when I bear in mind that it is scarcely too much to say, as has been said, that these are days when the Previous Question is being moved on every subject, human and divine; when I look to the momentous issues which may result from the bare consideration of a question such as this—I cannot fancy that—go back how far soever I may along the lines of English history—there ever can have been a time when, on a new Member's part, there was greater cause for firm resolution, the result of serious reflection and anxious care. I feel sure, so far as my short experience has enabled me to judge of the general tone and tenor of this House, that I shall not be expressing the sentiments of myself alone, but of many an hon. Member—new and old alike, on this side and on that—when I say that it was with a sense of profound responsibility that we have approached those questions to which the unparalleled conduct of the Member for Northampton gave rise in the earlier stages of this matter; but if it was with a sense of responsibility that we approached those questions which related to the mere appointment of Committees and their numerical strength, it is now with a sense of something much more akin to apprehension that we draw near to the subject in the phase which it has now assumed—of apprehension, not lest this honourable House should ultimately adopt a course of procedure which is other than in accordance with what is just and right, but lest the community itself should suffer irremediable harm from the protracted discussion in this place of a matter which, to say the very least of it, must be fruitless of good. Now, Sir, I have to claim the attention of the House while I lay before it a view of this question which, while it is a simple one, is largely entertained in the country generally, and has the advantage of being, strictly speaking, neither legal nor sentimental. It is widely held, then, that throughout the debates on this question there has been a want of clearness in distinguishing between complicity with a man's views and the maintenance of his rights; between active participation in—nay, mere recognition of—the cause of such and such a speculative agitator,
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  and the duty of upholding the right of every English citizen to the benefit of election by his fellow-men. With the former, Parliament has nothing in the world to do; while, in giving effect to the latter, it is simply exercising its natural and necessary, its ordinary and proper function. It is true that there has been good cause for such a confusion of ideas. It is a great anomaly, indeed, when we find a man of no religion attempting, in the name of religious liberty, to treat any precedent of Parliament as a thing of no effect; but a far greater anomaly would it be for the Representatives of the English people, in the name of a precedent of Parliament, to deny to any English citizen a right which is his by birth. For this reason, I shall support the Resolution of the right hon. Gentleman. Now, it would be unbecoming in me to particularize any of those hon. Gentlemen opposite who in previous debates, or in this one, have thought it a conscientious duty to act on considerations derived from an opposite point of view; but I would merely express the surprise I felt—I think it was almost on my first entrance into this House—to see an hon. Gentleman—it was the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drummond Wolff)—standing up in his place, as a duly elected Member of this House, and interposing between another equally duly elected Member and his seat. I cannot but think that that is a species of obstruction which neither this House nor this nation will endure. I am not speaking of obstruction to the Public Business of this House—though that is bad enough—but of obstruction to the will of the English people—obstruction of a nature such as the Constitutional historian of the future will have to deal with, and with which, if I mistake not, he will not deal too tenderly. If, Sir, hon. Members opposite choose to make use of such methods as these, most assuredly will they find, ere many years have passed away, that organized obstruction to the inevitable is the surest factor which can be found of sudden, and, it may be, of disastrous change. The mill stream never runs so swiftly as when sweeping the mill dam away. One other point to which I feel bound to allude is the ungenerous and unworthy, base, and untrue insinuations which have been levelled at the Liberal Party, and at the Noncon-

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  formists in particular, in respect to complicity on their part with this most atrocious case. As an individual unit of that great Party, which represents—as I believe—the immemorial spirit of the English people, and as the Representative of a constituency (East Cornwall) largely Nonconformist in that part of this country which John Wesley specially made his own, I wish, standing here in my place, in such poor words as I am capable of, most indignantly to rebut and to repudiate that charge. It is framed in the same mould as one which we had to deal with during the recent Election, and which, appearing in a letter, which, from the prominence of its author and the prominence of its recipient, was dignified by the name of a Manifesto, imputed disloyalty by implication to the Liberal Party. Both alike were based on individual instances devoid of truth; the first recoiled on those who made it, and the second will do the same. But, since that insinuation has been made, it must be answered; and for this object I have in my mind the words of that chivalrous and far-seeing man, M. de Tocqueville—
  "The experience of all ages has shown that the most living root of religious belief has ever been planted in the heart of the people."
  Now, in the first place, whatever some philosophers may say, even if there were a dozen Mr. Bradlaughs in this House, the fact would remain that, in so far as the community is concerned, this nation is still not only a religious but a Christian nation. There is inherent within it a religious expression, which alternately guides and controls, and is guided and controlled by the civil power; and, in the second place, Liberalism, if I know anything of it, is the expression of the voice of the people's heart. In the practical politics of the Party, therefore, religion still lives, and moves, and has its being. It is unnecessary for me to make any defence for Nonconformists. The Wesleyans have sent, as a protest to this House, one of the most solemn documents ever laid before it,—on the matter of the Oath. The fact, then, really amounts to this—that all this while Liberals and Nonconformists have been seeing what, I am sorry to say, some hon. Gentlemen on this side of the House as well as on that have been blind to—namely, that the maintenance of a
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  man's rights has nothing on earth to do with complicity with his views. In conclusion, I will say that fortunate, most fortunate, do I hold it to be that the Leader of this House in such a crisis as this is the right hon. Gentleman whom his Queen and country alike have called to occupy that exalted post. In him all alike can place reliance when the cause of religion is at stake. Not unwilling will he be that I should recall to this House, to his Party, but to the new Members most of all, words which, in 1872, he used in an address to students at Liverpool—
  "In preparing yourselves for the combat of life I beg you to take this also into your account, that the spirit of denial is abroad, and that it has challenged all religion, but especially the religion we profess, to the combat of life and death."
  Having regard to those words, and to many others of like import which have fallen from the lips of the right hon. Gentleman, I am prepared faithfully and trustfully to follow him into the Lobby to which this Resolution will lead, believing that—where religion is in question—if I may use the old simile of the ship of the State, no counter seas will make his hand to waver on the wheel, no passing clouds divert his vision from the lode-star of our ancient faith.
  MR. NORTHCOTEapproached the question from a very young Member's point of view, and not from considerations ultra-legal or ultra-ecclesiastical. He was one of three Conservative Members who supported the original proposition of the Government that the case should be referred to a Select Committee. He wished to say a few words about the allegations that the Conservative Party nourished some personal animosity against Mr. Bradlaugh, and that they were actuated in their conduct by a desire to obtain an electioneering advantage. As for the charge of personal animosity, he could assure the House that he entertained no animosity towards Mr. Bradlaugh. With regard to the second allegation to which he had referred, he would remind the House that it was not the Conservative Party who initiated the proceedings against Mr. Bradlaugh. The person who originally expressed a doubt as to whether Mr. Bradlaugh could or could not affirm was the Speaker himself, and upon such doubt being expressed, Her Majesty's Govern-

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  ment chose a Select Committee to inquire into the matter, and ascertain whether, under the circumstances, Mr. Bradlaugh was in a position to make an Affirmation. It was perfectly open to the Government to have accepted that Report; and, therefore, the Conservatives could hardly be blamed for loyally taking up the Report of a Committee which the Government itself had proposed. Then, the Conservative Party were charged with endeavouring to keep Mr. Bradlaugh out of the House for political reasons; and he thought before imputing to the Conservative Party that they were actuated in their proceedings by merely an electioneering desire, it would be more regular to inquire what the real circumstances of the case were. What the Conservative Party were doing was to support the decision arrived at by the two Committees that were appointed to consider the question, and they were not opposing the Resolution for any electioneering purposes. It was hard that they should be accused of having waited till the eleventh hour before taking action. Had they not been told that they had no right to take Mr. Bradlaugh's previous conduct into account? How, then, could they do otherwise than assume, until Mr. Bradlaugh's conduct showed that the assumption was wrong, that the opinions of that gentleman had undergone sufficient change to allow him to go through the proper forms before taking his seat? So far as he understood the whole question, he could not see how the Committees could have come to any other decision than the one they did arrive at. In conclusion, he protested against the Conservative Party being accused of attempting to keep Mr. Bradlaugh out of the House to suit their own purposes, and stated that they were simply supporting the decisions of the two Committees, both of which were appointed by the Government. If the Resolution of the Prime Minister was not passed, and Mr. Bradlaugh was unable to take his seat in the House, a very simple course was open to the Government—a course that had been advocated by almost every newspaper, and many persons outside the walls of that House—namely, that the Government should introduce some measure the effect of which should be to permit Mr. Bradlaugh to take his seat. If that course were adopted by
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  the Government there would be no captious opposition from any Gentleman on that side of the House. He trusted that the House would support the Amendment of the right hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon.
  MR. W. CORBETsaid, that as an Irish Catholic, representing a constituency the majority of whom were Catholics, he felt himself under a solemn obligation to enter his earnest and unqualified protest against any measure having for its aim or object the facilitating the admission of Mr. Bradlaugh into that House. In saying that he believed he was not only expressing his own sentiments, but those of men of every shade of opinion, religious or political, in the county he had the honour to represent (Wicklow). Concurring as he did to the fullest extent with those hon. Gentlemen who had from the first declared themselves against opening the door of the House to Mr. Bradlaugh, he was forced to the conclusion that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government, whose character he (Mr. Corbet) held in the highest estimation, had on that occasion allowed his well-known constitutional liberality to lead him to overstep, or rather to wish altogether to obliterate, the broad and distinct line of demarcation which existed, and which it was to be hoped ever would exist, between hon. Members of that House and those classes of the community with whom Mr. Bradlaugh had striven so effectually and so successfully to identify himself. In his earnest desire and, as he (Mr. Corbet) believed, anxiety to be just to an individual, the Prime Minister was pursuing a course calculated to give mortal offence not merely to a small section of the community, but to the whole people of the United Kingdom, minus the demented electors of Northampton. The last thing which anyone would dream of alleging against the right hon. Gentleman was that he had any sympathy with Mr. Bradlaugh's Besantine doctrines of morality or avowed Atheism. They had been admonished by the Treasury Bench to avoid introducing any element of passion into the discussion of that most odious question; but it was impossible calmly to contemplate the admission of Mr. Bradlaugh into that Assembly. Outside that door clamouring to take his seat, not amid the

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  political outcasts of fortune, but among the upright and virtuous followers of Her Majesty's Government, there was one who, judged by his own antecedents, out of his own lips, and by his widely disseminated and scandalous writings, was the human embodiment of the reverse of virtue. Catholics held that there was but one infallible authority on earth in the matter of faith and morals. Having had the advantage of reading a celebrated literary production and of observing the course taken during the progress of those debates, he thought he might hazard the conjecture that that authority was not the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government.
  SIR HENRY JACKSONexpressed regret that there should be imported into every discussion upon this question so much pietistic declamation, and so much abuse. He held that it would be altogether more consistent with the usages of the House, and also with the practice of gentlemen, if they were allowed to debate that matter as a question of principle, avoiding those too frequent personal allusions to the unfortunate individual who had given rise to that discussion. This had been an unfortunate affair from beginning to end. It was, no doubt, an extreme case. Hon. Gentlemen on his side of the House were battling, first of all, for what they considered to be the cause of civil and religious liberty, served up, he owned, with not very savoury sauce on that occasion. But the question would never have arisen, and they would never have been put on their mettle, if the person referred to were an ordinary person and one who would be welcome to the House. Personal objection was the cause of all the hot debate and strong sentiments they had heard. He protested, however, against personal dislike being substituted for the real question before the House, to the consideration of which he desired to recall the debate. The Motion before them was intended to extricate the House from the difficult position in which it had been placed by the adoption of the Resolution of the hon. and learned Member for Launceston (Sir Hardinge Giffard) on the 22nd of June. That Resolution, which now stood recorded on the Journals of the House, declared in so many words that Mr. Bradlaugh should not be
  1298
  permitted either to take the Oath or to make the Affirmation mentioned in the Statute. That declaration was without any limit of time or any condition whatever. But the Statute Law of the country expressly directed that every Member of the House—a term which clearly included Mr. Bradlaugh—was to do one or other of the two things which the Resolution of the 22nd of June said Mr. Bradlaugh should not do. The Statute was perfectly plain. It in simple words enacted that the Oath should be taken by every Member at the Table in the middle of the House. That was a duty thrown upon every Member, and there was only one exception to its obligation. That exception was found in this—that the Statute contemplated the possibility of some Members objecting to take the Oath. It was passed to remove difficulties which had arisen in practice as to taking the Oath; and to meet and provided for this difficulty it provide that if a Member objected to take the Oath, there was an alternative course opened for him—that of making an Affirmation. But either Oath or Affirmation he must take. From one or other there was no escape. One of the most unfortunate features in the history of this controversy was that there had been separate Referenoes, each embracing only one-half of the question, to two distinct Committees. He could not doubt that if the whole question had been sent to one Committee, the Report of that Committee would have adopted the view the conclusion to which the House was invited to come by the Prime Minister—namely, that no Member was to be prevented from doing that which the law said he should do—was a proper conclusion. He could not but believe that if one Committee had considered both branches of this question together, and as a whole, they must have determined that Mr. Bradlaugh could and must either affirm or take the Oath. His own conviction was that he might affirm, and that having claimed to affirm he could not take the Oath. He had also a strong conviction that if the Report of either of these Committees had been contrary to what it was, hon. Gentlemen opposite would have asserted the right of the House to decide for itself on this matter. ["Hear, hear!"] Well, that was the very thing the House were now asked by the Government to do. Unless they modified the unfortunate Resolution

  1299
  which now stood on the Journals of the House, they, would be preventing a Member from complying with the obligations of the Act of Parliament. He was bound to admit that the suggestion of the second Committee, that the matter should be left to be decided by a Court of Law, was not altogether satisfactory. It seemed to him to be rather a flabby conclusion. What he should have been glad to see the second Committee do was to have stated that, in their judgment, the first Committee had not considered the matter adequately as a whole, and were wrong in their view. Had they taken this course the present embarrassment would have been less; but even as it was, the House could do no harm by agreeing to the invitation of the Prime Minister. Taking the Oath, or making an Affirmation, was not intended as a religious test, but only as a declaration of loyalty. Mr. Bradlaugh was desirous of carrying out the mandate of his constituents, by complying with the obligation of the law and taking his seat, and in preventing him from doing it in the manner prescribed by Statute the House itself was, in his (Sir Henry Jackson's) opinion, violating the law. The law said he should not do it until he had signified his allegiance to his Sovereign, and that this could be done by an action purely secular. He failed to see what injury Parliament would sustain by dispensing with the Oath in this case, and allowing the hon. Member to substitute a Declaration of his allegiance.
  MR. STAVELEY HILLsaid, that the decision of the first Committee was said to have been appealed against, and was overruled by the decision of the second Committee. He could only say, as was said by his right hon. Friend the late Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir R. Assheton Cross), that had he known that the second Committee was intended to be an appeal from the first Committee, he should not have felt it his duty to take a seat in that Committee. The only proper tribunal to which to appeal from a Committee of that House was the full House itself; and, in his opinion, that was the proper course for Her Majesty's Government to have taken. It was said that the recommendation of the second Committee reversing the decision of the first Committee and allowing Mr. Bradlaugh
  1300
  to affirm, had been carried by a majority of 12 to 9, while the Report of the first Committee had been carried by a majority of I, but to this 9 should be added, the Chairman and the late Attorney General, who was then absent; and it would be seen the real majority in the second Committee was also 1; and the fact was that that majority was brought about solely by the change of side by the hon. and learned Member for Stockport (Mr. Hopwood). It appeared to him quite clear that Mr. Bradlaugh could not be permitted to take the Oath or make an Affirmation. If at the Table of the House he had not made the claim to affirm by virtue of the Evidence Amendment Act, 1869–70, he would have been able to take the Oath without a question being raised; but, seeing that Mr. Bradlaugh called the attention of the Speaker to his claim, the House had a right to interfere. His (Mr. Staveley Hill's) view with regard to the right to affirm was this. Originally both witnesses in Courts of Law and. Members of that House were required absolutely to take the Oath; but the rigid rule had been gradually relaxed, both in Courts of Justice and in that House, in favour of those who entertained religious scruples against taking an oath. The legislation on this subject, however, had never gone so far with regard to that House as it had with regard to Courts of Justice, and the law allowing Affirmations to be taken in that House not only with reference to this promissory Oath, but even to the Oath of testimony also, as shown by the Act of 1871, only went as far as that which was conceded for Courts of Justice in 1854. He denied that it was possible to construe one set of Acts by the other set. He was of opinion, therefore, that Mr. Bradlaugh was not a person entitled under the Act of Parliament to make an Affirmation; and if, at the same time, it had been rightly held that he could not take the Oath, what course should be followed? The bringing forward of this subject was a great misfortune; but if Mr. Brad laugh had not himself raised the question, he could have taken the Oath, and nothing more would have been heard of him; but he (Mr. Staveley Hill) submitted that it would have been impossible for hon. Members to have sat there and witnessed an act which in itself would have been utterly ludicrous. The Prime Minister was inaccurate in

  1301
  stating that the objection had originated with the Clerk at the Table, because all that the latter had done had been to ask Mr. Bradlaugh by what right he claimed to affirm, a question which it was right and necessary to put to those claiming to make an Affirmation. The Prime Minister, who had not completely stated what had taken place on previous occasions, now asked—"What else can we do than appeal to the House?" The Committee, he (Mr. Staveley Hill) submitted, that sat last to consider the question, had all the precedents before them relating to the Parliamentary Oath, and it was proved to be the clear practice of Parliament that where a Member declined to take the Oath when it was tendered to him, or was unwilling to take the Oath, or in the judgment of the House was not a proper person to whom the Oath should be administered, the course had always been to declare the seat vacant, and to issue a new Writ. In 1620 occurred the precedent of Sir John Lee, who had been in the House for some time and had not taken the Oath. In spite of his willingness to take the Oath a new Writ was issued. Another precedent was that of Sir H. Monson, in 1689, in whose ease a new Writ was issued because he had not taken the Oath, and had not attended the service of the House. He might mention also the precedent of Lord Fanshawe; but the best case in point was furnished by John Archdale, the Quaker Member for Chipping Wycombe in 1698. In his case the Speaker acquainted the House that he had received from Archdale a sealed letter, to the effect that he had not opposed the wishes of the burgesses when he found them desirous of electing him, and that, if the House would permit him to do so without taking the Oath, he was ready to execute his trust. The House having heard the letter read and the Statutes, Mr. Archdale came in, and the Speaker, by direction of the House, asked him whether he would take the Oath. That he declined to do on account of the principles of his religion, and a new Writ was ordered to issue. Now, as far as Parliamentary requirements went, that was the closest parallel he could find to the case of the hon. Member for Northampton. Having regard to those precedents, the course that the Government ought to have taken was sufficiently
  1302
  obvious. All further trouble would have been avoided if the manly course had been adopted of issuing a new Writ. If Mr. Bradlaugh was still loved by the people of Northampton, in spite of his vagaries, and again returned, then he could have walked up to the Table and taken the Oath, and no more would have been heard of the matter; if not returned, the contention would equally have been at an end, and the House could have calmly proceeded to legislate for any future similar case. As it was, he hoped the House would not affirm the Resolution of the Prime Minister—one that would allow Mr. Bradlaugh, by a sort of side wind, to take his seat, and so frustrate the previous Resolution it had arrived at. One thing was clear, that it would not be right to invite Mr. Bradlaugh to affirm at his own peril. If, in consequence of the action of the House, he incurred a penalty, the House would be bound in common fairness to give him an indemnity.
  MR. BUTTheld that the action of the House had not been in accordance with the law, and hon. Members ought to be very glad at the eleventh hour to recede from the false position they had taken up. The Oath of Allegiance was never designed for the purposes to which it had been diverted by the recent Resolution; for the House, by excluding Mr. Bradlaugh, would practically convert it into a religious test. No one could help thinking it strange that the law itself should be invoked in order to prevent the hon. Member from complying with its requirements. Sir Erskine May had stated distinctly that there was no precedent for refusing to allow a man who presented himself at the Table to take the Oath from taking it. There were certain oaths at present which a man was entitled to take in the Courts of Law, even although he were an Atheist. Until a very recent period every answer in Chancery had to be sworn by the defendant. Was the suggestion ever made that a man upon whom the law imposed the duty of making his answer in Chancery upon oath was prevented from doing so because he was an Atheist? The principle which underlay the whole matter was that when the law enjoined that an oath should be taken it would not step in to prevent its being taken. Taylor on Evidence, the highest authority in England upon the

  1303
  subject, quoted without disapproval, or rather with approval, an American authority who laid down that whether a person about to be sworn was an Atheist or not, the question could never be raised by anyone but the adverse party. In another place, the same authority said that there was nothing to prevent an Atheist from taking an oath of office, or from swearing a complaint before a magistrate, or from making oath in his answer in Chancery. Was he (Mr. Butt) not right, therefore, in saying that when the law enjoined on a Member of Parliament to take the Oath, it could not in the same breath say—"You shall not be allowed to take it?" The authority which he had already quoted also said that the law never allowed an objection of infidelity to be raised against any man seeking his own right before a Court of Justice. On what did the House proceed? On its own notion that the Oath had no binding effect on a person entertaining the opinions of Mr. Bradlaugh. The House was in danger of doing great injustice, when it prevented Mr. Bradlaugh from doing that which he said he was prepared to do. It was said Mr. Bradlaugh had obtruded his opinions on the House. Holding the opinions he did, Mr. Bradlaugh did not, perhaps, think himself justified in coming to the Table and swallowing the Oath without raising any question, or he might have raised the question in order to make political capital out of it. But, if it were so, it was no reason why, if he was otherwise minded to take the Oath, the House should prevent him. If notoriety were his object, the whole action of the House was aiding and abetting him in his desire. Was it fair, legal, or right towards his constituency to prevent Mr. Bradlaugh taking the Oath? Could any hon. Member doubt that in a contest between the House and Mr. Bradlaugh's constituency the House would ultimately be beaten? If the views which hon. Members opposite entertained of Mr. Bradlaugh's aims were correct, they were, by the action they took, playing most completely into his hands, and the longer they kept him out of the House the greater would be his ultimate triumph when he took his seat, as he assuredly would. It was for the interest, dignity, and honour of the House that it should adopt some Resolution, putting an end to the present situation.
  MR. PARNELLsaid, it was with the utmost reluctance that, as an Irish Protestant, a member of the Synod of the Protestant Church of Ireland, and the parochial nominator of his parish, chosen by the votes of his fellow-Protestants to that office, he wished to explain his reasons for the vote which he intended to give for the Resolution of the Prime Minister. He could not recollect any time when he had felt greater timidity, less confidence in the result of the action which he was about to take, or less confident in the belief that the mass of the Irish people were behind him than upon the present occasion. In his past political life he had always felt that his action would be understood and appreciated by his constituents; but, upon the present occasion, he was bound to believe there was, at all events, very great risk of its being misunderstood. His religion, however, taught him to be just and fear not; and although a man might be placed under a temporary cloud or a temporary disqualification, he thought and felt convinced that, in the long run, if he acted according to the just dictates of his own conscience, every right-thinking man at home in Ireland would ultimately come to his support. Now, why did he intend to vote for the Resolution of the Prime Minister? Because he believed that the law entitled Mr. Bradlaugh to take his seat in that House, and he objected to that method of making law by Parliamentary Resolution. If those Gentlemen on the Opposition side of the House desired to keep Mr. Bradlaugh out of the House—and who said they desired to do so, because the law was against his views—if they desired what they said, why did they not legally test the question? But what had they done? They had prevented any legal test from being taken; they had deliberately prevented the action of the ordinary law of the land; and they had deliberately prevented an important constituency like Northampton from having its right of representation in the House of Commons. Now, a cry had been raised against him (Mr. Parnell) in Ireland that he was an Atheist, because he voted for the admission of Mr. Bradlaugh. He wished to say that Mr. Bradlaugh's religious tenets and his doctrines with reference to over-population were abominable; but because he (Mr. Parnell) objected to

  1305
  that Gentleman's doctrines on those questions was not a sufficient reason why he should go contrary to the law. Catholic Members for Ireland had felt very strongly on the question—very strongly, indeed—and they had been told that they ought to recollect that it was once sought to keep them out, just as it was now sought to keep Mr. Bradlaugh out. But he would ask the Catholic Members what did they fear? Did they fear that their religion would be injured by Mr. Bradlaugh's introduction to the House? ["No, no!"] If they did not, then upon what principle did they proceed? He had listened carefully to many of the speeches of his Catholic Friends from Ireland, and it had appeared to him that they had argued that it was their duty as Catholics to keep Mr. Bradlaugh out of the House lest their religion should be injured by his introduction. ["No, no!"] Then, for what other reason did they object to his coming there? An appeal had been made to Catholic Ireland. They had been told that that little Island was the last country that had resisted the inroads of Continental infidelity, and that unless they desired that that odious thing should creep into Ireland, they must keep Mr. Bradlaugh out of the House. Well, that surely seemed to indicate a fear on the part of Irish Catholics that their religion might be injured by Mr. Bradlaugh's introduction into the House; but were they entitled really to look at it from that point of view? Were they, as Catholics, entitled to say—"Because we are Catholics, we object to Mr. Bradlaugh?" For they must recollect exactly the same argument was used against their own admission. Why were Catholics deprived of their civil rights for centuries? Why were they prevented from coming into that House? It was because Protestants feared that the admission of Catholics would injure the Protestant religion, and it was because the majority of Protestants began to see that even if they had that fear, it was an unworthy fear, and a fear that they ought not to allow to influence them in considering the civil rights of their fellowmen, that Catholics were at last admitted to the same civil and religious rights as Protestants. They must never forget that, in dealing with this subject, if they once admitted the principle that they were entitled to ob-
  1306
  ject to a man because his doctrines were likely to injure their religion, they struck at the very root of civil and religious liberty, and that was why he felt it his duty to do that which was personally odious to him. It was a personally odious task for him to undertake to vote for the admission of the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) to that House; but if he had to walk through that Lobby by himself, he should feel himself a coward if he refused to do so.
  MR. A. M. SULLIVANsaid, he was very glad to be able to follow his hon. Friend the Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) who had spoken last, in order to assure him that he (Mr. A. M. Sullivan) should be sorry if any Catholic Member from Ireland rose to reply to him, and used a single word which would imply a failure to appreciate his honesty, his devotion, his sincerity, and his patriotism. The liberality of his (Mr. A. M. Sullivan's) co-religionists who elected a Protestant Gentleman like the hon. Member for Cork to represent them would be only hypocrisy and sham, if they expected their Member to speak on a question like this otherwise than as a conscientious Protestant; and no one would be more ready to defend the hon. Member against any such aspersions as he had anticipated than would his Catholic fellow-Members. His hon. Friend, however, had spoken in the same way that the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House had spoken the other night for the abolition of tests, and not on the question before the House; and in the spirit of that speech he invited the hon. Member to vote for the Amendment he (Mr. A. M. Sullivan) had placed on the Paper. But the speech was beside the question now before the Chair. He (Mr. A. M. Sullivan) had listened to the speech of the Prime Minister that night, and it was a serious speech and a critical one for him, for the House, and for the country. The onus lay upon the right hon. Gentleman to justify to the House the proposition he had submitted for their consideration. The House had ere now rescinded Resolutions and abolished or modified its religious or political tests; but, he asked, had the right hon. Gentleman in his speech been able to quote one single precedent where a Resolution of the House had been rescinded by such

  1307
  a side wind as he now proposed? He had not even fortified the consciences of his devoted followers by citing one single precedent during 500 years of the House of Commons to show where a religious test had been abolished in a manner at all comparable to that now submitted to the House? There was great danger in dealing with a question introduced by the Prime Minister, because of his eloquence and skill and the admiration most of them had for him. But he would ask the House to consider whether this was a Motion to satisfy an individual, or to remove the grievance of a class? Was it a capitulation to Mr. Bradlaugh? If it was not a capitulation to threats of violence and disorder, then was it an amendment of the law, which amendment experience had shown to be necessary and right? The police motive avowedly animated the present proposition. But, consider the view of the case which was academically taken in the country—namely, that this was a removal of a grievance which oppressed a class—what class was oppressed? They were told in a novel that a Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was informed that the Cork Militia was in the Castle yard, and when he went out to inquire for it, a single voice responded—"Here I am, your Excellency." What class was aggrieved by their present rules? "Here I am, might respond the hon. Gentleman sitting under the Gallery. That was the class. What other class had petitioned declaring that they were without representation? He would never vote for excluding any appreciable section of the nation from fair representation. The oppression of minorities had been the corner stone of tyranny in the history of Europe. Where was the class that was oppressed now? It was nothing but an individual. If there had been a class, it would have imitated other classes in petitioning for representation for ten, or five, or two years. They would have imitated other classes for whom the House had waived tests. Whenever before in the history of their proceedings had the House responded to the first knock of a class or of an individual? Did the first Catholic find a Prime Minister to admit him in the first instance? Or did the first Jew who was so conscientious that he was excluded for years? For 30 years his co-religionists had trod the thorny path leading to Catho-
  1308
  lic Emancipation, during which period successive Ministries were made and unmade upon the question; and yet when a Catholic came to the Table and could not take the Oath he represented a nation of 8,000,000. But he had a conscience, and once he said he would not swear he did not swear. Even after Emancipation was passed, O'Connell had to go back to Clare and be re-elected, because the Act was not retrospective. But was Mr. Bradlaugh, who represented himself, to be dealt with in a more liberal, tolerant, and generous way? Then there were the Jews. He supposed he should be classed with the Ultramontane bigots—["Hear, hear!"]—he understood that cheer; but he spoke of the emancipation of the Jews, because he had read with sympathy and with respect of the struggles of that cruelly-oppressed race, and he was proud to think that the Irish Members of that day supported their emancipation. But when Alderman Salomons came into the House no Prime Minister rose to propose not merely an amendment of the law, but a retrospective Resolution. That great honour was reserved for Mr. Bradlaugh. The Prime Minister rested his case very little on there being a class grievance; but he based it mainly on police considerations. An avowal had been made that night by the Premier of England which, two years ago, he (Mr. A. M. Sullivan) would have thought to be impossible—namely, that the proper way whereby the House should prevent a Gentleman forcing his way to the mace and remaining there as long as he pleased was to let him have what he demanded. If that were not done, and if the House did not pass under the Caudine forks, they were told that Mr. Bradlaugh, evening after evening, might come there and bully them—the Commons of the Empire. Why, since the bauble was removed from the Table, and armed men scattered the Members of the House, no such outrage as that had been committed on it. Was the reign of rowdyism again to be introduced, so that, on the threat of disorder and physical violence, they were to go on their knees and say—"Dear Mr. Bradlaugh, spare us from such scenes, and for police considerations you shall have all that you require?" His Friend, Mr. Plimsoil, gained something by standing in the midst of the floor and shaking his

  1309
  fist at the then Premier; but if Mr. Plimsoll were then a Member of the House, he (Mr. A. M. Sullivan) could tell him that if he only threatened to come down, grasp the mace, and say—"Let me see who is able to put me out," the Prime Minister would counsel the House, with a view to escape from scenes of disorderand violence, they should pass the Merchant Shipping Bill. That was the only reason for the Motion before the House. ["No, no!"] If that was not the animating motive of the Resolution, why should the Government hesitate to accept his (Mr. A. M. Sullivan's) Amendment, which adopted their own view, but applied it prospectively, not retrospectively. For himself, he was opposed to tests where they were designed to disfranchise any section of the nation; therefore it was that he placed his Amendment on the Paper. He would appeal to that section of the Liberal Party which sat opposite, who were really at one with him on the question, to support him. They, too, as he did, desired to abolish religious tests; and if Party compulsion were removed from them, they would make the proposed emancipation consonant with all precedent; for never before had it been retrospective. He thought that it was more manly to honestly avow that he was conscious that he was moved in this matter by what some might call religious prejudices, than to pretend that he was not moved by some such feeling; but they were not prejudices of that narrow kind which would make a bigot seek to oppress all those who were not of his own religious belief. His was, he hoped, a broader and a wider view. He looked abroad, and he confessed his mind was overshadowed by a gloomy fear that there were days in store for Europe darker than any which had gone by for probably some hundreds of years. The very basis of the social edifice in every land was being ruthlessly assailed—and assailed by the stealthy step of men like him on whose behalf they were now asked to change the British Constitution. It was not because of Mr. Bradlaugh's religious opinions alone—though these were to him abhorrent—that he would refuse to violate all rule and precedent in extending to him the privileges of a Member of the House; it was because of other of his principles, which, taken in conjunction with his Atheistic opinions, struck fatally at the
  1310
  foundation of civil society, as they knew it; and, therefore, he said that the Resolution would mark a turning point in the Parliamentary history of England. What the House was about to do was, not to accomplish a triumph for the principles of religious liberty, but to register high on the door-post of the House of Commons the flood-mark of unbelief and infidelity. Yet, would it not be well when Nihilism in Russia, Communism in France, Socialism in Germany, and Atheism in many lands, were threatening Thrones and Constitutions, if they in England—Jews, Protestants, and Catholics—were to join hands in holy reverence round the shrine of religious belief, and act upon the grand old Constitutional principle—Honour the King and worship God?
  MR. RICHARD: Sir, I should like to be allowed to make a few observations on the subject before the House, because, with the exception of my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham (Mr. John Bright), I think no Nonconformist has yet taken part in these discussions. I have listened to the speech of my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Meath (Mr. A. M. Sullivan) with great admiration for its eloquence, but with unspeakable astonishment at the principles it enunciated. Indeed, the hon. and learned Gentleman seems to base his objection to Mr. Bradlaugh's claims on no principle whatever. It is with him a mere question of number and time. He appears to think that the admission of men to the enjoyment of their civil and political rights depends upon how many they are. Mr. Brad-laugh is only one man; therefore, he must be rejected. But surely one man is as much entitled to justice as 100,000 men. Then, says my hon. and learned Friend, you ought not to admit him at once. If he perseveres long enough, and knocks at the door of the House year after year, then my hon. and learned Friend will go himself and open the door to him. Indeed, he carried this curious theory of keeping men waiting for their rights, so far that he seemed actually to justify the course taken by the Protestants of this country in shutting out so long his own fellow-religionists from this House. But how can that which is wrong now become right six or seven years hence? There have been, throughout this debate, two questions constantly cropping up of very unequal significance

  1311
  and importance. One of them might be called formal and technical—that is, whether Mr. Bradlaugh was to be allowed to make an Affirmation and so obtain his seat. That is a question of law and jurisdiction, the solution of which depends upon the construction of statutes, and the collation of precedents, with which I do not feel that I am particularly competent to deal. I have listened with considerable attention to the elaborate legal discussions which have been conducted with great ability by some of the most accomplished Members of the Profession. But I am ashamed to be obliged to confess that, as it has happened to me before, after passing through a similar process, I found myself in a state of rather greater bewilderment at the end than I was at the beginning. But, underlying this technical point, there is another, which seems to me far more essential and important, which, as was pointed out by the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, has evidently taken possession of the minds of a large number of hon. Gentlemen opposite—namely, this, whether Mr. Bradlaugh should be refused admission to this House because he is an avowed Atheist. No one will suspect me of having any sympathy with the views which Mr. Bradlaugh holds; and if I do not stigmatize them and those who hold them in the vehement language which has been sometimes used here, it is because, in the first place, I do not think it is quite a generous and manly thing for us to take advantage of our position in this House to hurl anathemas against any class of men, especially if they are not here to defend themselves; and, secondly, because I do not believe that hurling anathemas ever does good, and is not, I am quite sure, the Christian method of dealing with the erring. Indeed, the feelings with which I regard those who have been so unhappy as to persuade themselves into the dismal creed or no-creed ascribed to Mr. Bradlaugh are not feelings of hatred and hostility, but of infinite sadness and pity. For it seems to me there is no class of men on the face of the earth more deserving of our compassion than those who have lost all faith in God. To me, to blot out that existence would be like blotting the sun out of the Universe. But, much as we may deplore the existence of such men amongst us, in my opinion, the right way of dealing
  1312
  with them is not the way of persecution; for, disguise it as you may, to deprive a man of his rights of citizenship on account of his views on religion, is persecution. It seems to me that hon. Gentlemen opposite are falling back upon an old, and what I had hoped was an exploded, error in this country, that the cause of religion, and especially of the Christian religion, can be advantaged by being placed under the protection of penal laws. It is an utter and fatal delusion which lay at the bottom of that system of religious persecution, with all its unutterable horrors and atrocities, which, I venture to say, has done more to harden men's hearts against Christianity, and to bring reproach upon its great name, than all the writings and all the speeches of all the infidels that ever lived. I said I had hoped this principle had fallen into final discredit amongst us. There was a time—and much of that time is within the memory of living men—when all official life in this country was regarded as the special preserve of members of the Established Church, and all sorts of test oaths and declarations were invented to bar the entrance, within that sacred in-closure, of all conscientious dissidents, the unconscientious' finding it easy enough to get in. But, by degrees, a more enlightened, and, as I believe, a more Christian spirit, prevailed, and relaxations were made, first, in favour of the Protestant Dissenters by the Toleration Act; then in favour of the Unitarians, who, in the first instance, were excluded from the benefits of the Toleration Act; then more fully in favour of the Nonconformists, by the repeal of the Test and Corporation Acts; then in favour of the Roman Catholics; then in favour of the members of the Society of Friends, and finally in favour of the Jews. At every one of these remissions, lamentations, and denunciations as loud, and, no doubt, as sincere as those now used, were uttered by the political and ecclesiastical ancestors of hon. Gentlemen opposite. When the Nonconformists were struggling for the abolition of the Test and Corporation Acts, most rev. and right rev. Prelates in the other House, and right hon. and hon. Gentlemen in this House, were never weary of saying that those laws were the main bulwarks and supports of our excellent Constitution in Church and State—I am quoting the exact words that were fre-

  1313
  quently used—and that to admit Dissenters to Offices of State would seal the fate of both Church and State. When the Roman Catholics were contending for the removal of the disabilities under which they so long laboured, the country resounded with cries of alarm and distress from the same parties. I lately met with a quotation from a speech by Lord Eldon, who was the very incarnation of intolerance, delivered in 1829, the year when the Roman Catholic Disabilities Removal Bill was passed, and I ask the special attention to it of the Roman Catholic Members of this House. Lord Eldon said—
  "I know that sooner or later this Bill will overturn the aristocracy and the Monarchy."
  He then quoted some extracts from speeches of Roman Catholics, and proceeded—
  "Even though you suppress the Roman Catholics who utter these seditious, treasonable, abominable, and detestable speeches, others will arise who will utter speeches more treasonable, more abominable, and more detestable."
  Then he concluded, and I commend the words to my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Meath—
  "Believing this measure to be an abrogation of all those laws which I deem to be necessary to the safety of the Church, a violation of those laws which I deem to be necessary to the preservation of the Throne as of the Church, and as indispensable to the existence of the Lords and Commons of this Realm as that of the King and of our holy religion, I would rather cease to exist than, upon waking to-morrow morning, find that I had consented to a measure fraught with evils so imminent and deadly, and of which, if I had not solemnly expressed this my humble but firm conviction, I should have been acting the part of a traitor to my country, my Sovereign, and my God."
  And when the Jews were admitted to Parliament, many of us here can remember what solemn prognostications of evil were uttered. We were told that we had un-Christianized the Legislature and un-Christianized the country. The hon. Gentleman the Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Newdegate), whose thorough honesty and sturdy consistency I entirely recognize and respect, in opposing the Bill introduced by Lord John Russell for the admission of the Jews, said—
  "He did not think it was advisable to have sitting in that House an individual who regarded our Redeemer as an impostor,"
  1314
  and he predicted that, as the admission of the Jews to the Legislature in France was the prelude to the destruction of the Monarchy, so it would be in this country. Well, now, I appeal to hon. Gentlemen opposite whether any of those evils, so lugubriously predicted as the result of relaxing the principle of religious exclusiveness, have come to pass? Has the State sustained any injury? Is it not true, on the contrary, that by broadening the foundation on which the content and loyalty of the people rested, by admitting excluded classes to the privileges of the Constitution, you have added immensely to the stability of the State? Has the Church suffered any damage? I am now speaking of the Church of England. So far otherwise, that I believe, and I make the acknowledgment not grudgingly, but with my whole heart, that the Church of England, as a religious institution, is at this moment more powerful, more effective for good, more full of spiritual life and activity than at any period of her history. And I will tell you why. When the Church found these outward secular props of exclusive privilege and ascendancy removed one after another from beneath her, she fell back more and more on the love and zeal, on the devotion and liberality of her own children, who have, on the whole, nobly honoured the confidence thus reposed in them. I will venture further to make this general remark, that in the proportion as the Church of England has ceased to be a persecuting Church has she become a prosperous Church, and if she could only be persuaded to shake herself free from the remaining fetters of State patronage and control, I believe her prosperity would still increase four-fold. I believe that hon. Gentlemen opposite are pursuing a most mistaken and mischievous course in this matter. I dare say they mean well; I am quite sure that some of them are moved by very sincere religious feeling, though even they, perhaps, are thankful to Providence that the opportunity of displaying their zeal for religion should coincide so happily with the opportunity of occasioning some embarrassment to a Liberal Government. But I have the strongest conviction that they are doing far more damage than service to the cause which, I have no doubt, is near to the hearts of many of them. For what are they doing? They

  1315
  are advertising Mr. Bradlaugh and his doctrines over the country and over the world. They have raised him to a pinnacle if not of popularity, at least of notoriety, which makes him the observed of all observers. They are enabling him to pose, if such be his ambition, as a hero and a martyr before his own followers. Nay, they have done more. I do not know how other Members have fared. But within the last two or three weeks I have been deluged with pamphlets and papers containing extracts from the writings of Mr. Bradlaugh and his associates—the most offensive the compilers could find—and very offensive some of them are. And these are, I suppose, scattered broadcast through the country; and thus hon. Gentlemen opposite, most unwittingly and unintentionally, I am sure, but practically and in effect, are becoming the agents and missionaries of Mr. Bradlaugh. I am told there is a great rush of demand for his publications, and I am quite certain of this, that there is no town or city in this country in which, if Mr. Bradlaugh were announced to speak, a room would be found largo enough to hold the people who would flock to see and hear him. I formerly voted for the Motion of the sitting Member for Northampton, and I shall now vote for the Motion of the Prime Minister without the slightest hesitation, and, in doing so, I am not voting for Mr. Bradlaugh. I am voting for a great principle, for which the Nonconformists have been contending for 200 years; and if that be not the principle for which they have been contending, I do not know what it is—namely, this—that we have no right, as a condition of admitting a man to the enjoyment of his civil and political rights, to take into account his opinions on religion at all. For my part, I should be glad if the whole system of swearing in admitting Members to this House could be dispensed with. To many of us it seems little better than a solemn farce, or rather a farce not at all solemn, but with a painful touch of profanity in it. No man who watched what was going on on the first day of the present Parliament, when hon. Members were crowding and squeezing around the Table laid out in the centre of the House, and scrambling for the New Testaments that were scattered upon it, amid jokes and good-humoured merriment—no man, I say,
  1316
  could have watched that scene and believed that what we were doing had anything about it of the solemnity of a religious act. I disclaim utterly the idea of serving the cause of Christianity by any amount of swearing. I think I have more faith in the vitality of the Christian religion than some hon. Gentlemen opposite. I believe its existence and prevalence in the world do not depend much upon anything that Courts or Parliaments or Governments might do or abstain from doing. If we look back to its past history we shall find that its earliest and noblest triumphs were achieved when it had all the Courts and Governments and Parliaments of the world against it. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the University of Dublin (Mr. Gibson), in the very able and effective speech he delivered early in these discussions, said, referring to the Book which is the instrument of the Oath, that he hoped it is a Book we all revere. Well, I hope so too. But I venture to suggest to him and other hon. Gentlemen that there is a better way of showing our reverence to that Book than by kissing its binding, and that is by giving heed in our national life to its principles and precepts. We are told that we ought to maintain our character as a Christian nation. But how can we become, or how can we remain, a Christian nation? Not by putting Christianity into an Act of Parliament. Not by formal acts of homage as a part of a public pageant. No but by imbuing the national sentiment with a Christian spirit, by fashioning our public policy in accordance with Christian principles. What is the value of a formal acknowledgment made by the lip, or by certain acts of pompous ceremony, when all that may co-exist with a policy which is in utter contempt of the essential principles of that very religion to which this elaborate outward reverence is rendered, with unequal and oppressive laws, with unjust wars, with restless and reckless aggression on the rights and territories of other nations, with a policy of ambition, selfishness and greed? If we would be a Christian Legislature, let us guide our deliberations by a Christian spirit, and fashion our policy according to a Christian standard, and by such means we shall do more to deserve and secure for ourselves that character than by all the oaths ever

  1317
  invented and imposed upon the unwilling consciences of mankind.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFF(who spoke amid much and continued interruption) said, that he had never lavished anathemas upon the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh), and that he had confined himself exclusively to the legal question as to whether the hon. Member was or was not entitled to take the Oath. His own opinion was that the difficulties in which the House was involved were entirely owing to the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government, who had been endeavouring from the first to evade the responsibility of his position and to throw it upon others. At the outset of the proceedings the right hon. Gentleman was not in the House; but his Delegate moved that a Committee should be appointed to consider the question of Mr. Bradlaugh's right to affirm. That Committee decided against him, and when the hon. Member presented himself at the Table for the purpose of taking the Oath, he (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) had deemed it his duty to object to his doing so. The right hon. Gentleman then again shifted the responsibility to the shoulders of another Committee, and when the Report of that Committee was presented, the right hon. Gentleman allowed the sitting Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) to take the matter into his own hands. Later on the right hon. Gentleman again abdicated his functions as Leader of the House. In. the Resolution he now brought forward the right hon. Gentleman did not even venture to affirm any doctrine, but attempted to shift the responsibility of his position upon some on this side of the House—to some common informer—who was to be left to assert the privileges of Parliament, because the right hon. Gentleman evaded the responsibility of his position. [Uproar.] He should insist on his right to be heard. ["Oh!"] He should not be put down by clamour. The Prime Minister would allow the Member for Northampton to affirm with the collusion of the House; but if he were to be allowed to do so, he could not speak or vote in the House without having a millstone round his neck; for his every act would be illegal, and he might be subjected to great and grievous penalties. He (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) was perfectly ready to submit to the verdict of the country on the subject, because he was satisfied that the
  1318
  views which he held on this question were the views of the mass of the people of this country. He was convinced the Prime Minister was running with the hare and hunting with the hounds. In the past when any question of the admission of a Member arose, the case was decided either by a Committee or by legislation; but the Prime Minister would not follow either of these precedents. He would allow Mr. Bradlaugh to affirm, though two Committees had decided against him. ["No, no!"] He ought either to have accepted the decisions of the Committees, or have brought in a Bill to allow Atheists to sit in Parliament.
  MR. M'COANsaid, at the commencement of the debate, he had no intention of taking any part in it, and, as a new Member, he should not long detain the House. He respected and admired the courage and honesty of the Member for Cork City (Mr. Parnell), whose speech he had listened to with pleasure; but he did not think his views would be popular in Ireland. ["Oh, oh!"] In saying that, he spoke as being himself a Protestant Member, representing a county of considerable size. He was intimately acquainted with the feelings of the North and the East of Ireland, and the opinion of Ireland, he believed, would be against the Resolution. ["No!"] He regretted that the subject had been turned into a question of mere Nisi Prim. They had had too much of legal argument, and he, therefore, eliminated that element altogether, and came to what seemed to him the real question. The issue before the House was clear—whether the doors of that Christian Legislature should be thrown open and Atheism invited to come in. The particular issue, indeed, was even more than that. It was not simply Atheism, but Atheism in its most revolting form, in the person, teaching, and character of the Member for Northampton. He had no wish to indulge in rhetorical abuse; but nowhere could there be found a more offensive representative of Atheism than Mr. Bradlaugh. ["Oh, oh!"]
  MR. SPEAKERreminded the hon. Member that he should be guarded in his language. The person to whom he was alluding was a Member of that House, and should not be referred to in such a manner.
  MR. M'COANsaid, he bowed to the ruling of the Chair, and would withdraw

  1319
  the expression complained of. The question was not whether the Legislature should be un-Christianized, hut whether the highest element of authority should be eliminated from it, and it should cease to be a Legislature fitting to rule a Christian country. In connection with the question, he could not help complaining that many false analogies had been raised on the opposite side of the House. The position of Mr. Bradlaugh had been likened to the former position of Roman Catholics, Jews, and Quakers; but he saw no analogy whatever between the cases, because the present was not properly a religious question at all. Having listened to the speech of the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Richard), who spoke as a Nonconformist, he (Mr. M'Coan) must say that he failed to recognize in it the Nonconformity of which he had any knowledge; and it was inconceivable to him how a Gentleman of the hon. Member's antecedents could express the opinions he had done, for they seemed to him nothing more nor less than an attempted palliation of Atheism. He concluded by asking whether any constituency, be it that of Northampton or any other, had the right to foist upon the House of Commons a person against whom their highest instincts revolted?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL (Sir FARRER HERSCHELL)said, he believed the course suggested by the Resolution of the right, hon. Gentleman (Mr. Gladstone) was the course best adapted for relieving the House from the position of serious embarrassment in which they found themselves. He did not think there could be any doubt that, as a result of the vote given a week ago, the House was placed in a position of great embarrassment. ["No, no!"] Some hon. Members opposite seemed to dissent from that view. All he could say was, that they did not seem to have any Representatives in the Press of this country, or anywhere outside the House. Article upon article had been published by journalists of every shade of polities, commenting upon the difficulty of the position in which the House was placed. He was astonished that any persons who remembered the scene that took place last Wednesday week should represent that the House was not embarrassed in consequence of the vote to which he had referred. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Sir Stafford Northcote) had moved that Mr. Bradlaugh be committed
  1320
  to custody, and next evening had moved for his release; but what suggestion had he given for relieving the House from the danger of a repetition of such scenes as had been witnessed? He wanted to know what remedy the right hon. Gentleman would suggest? Supposing Mr. Bradlaugh had presented himself at the Table on the night after his release, what course would, the right hon. Member opposite have advocated? Would Mr. Bradlaugh have been committed to the custody of the Serjeant at Arms for the remainder of the Session? ["Hear, hear!"] Some hon. Members said "Hear, hear!" but he doubted very much whether that course would have been really expedient and calculated to further the interests of the House. What was the situation? The hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) having been elected by the constituency, and being willing to adopt either of the courses which the statute prescribed, the House refused him permission to do so, and thus refused to let him take his seat. Did hon. Members, then, suppose that it was probable that Mr. Bradlaugh would remain tranquilly content with that state of things? Did they think it probable that the constituency of Northampton would be content with that state of things? The constituency had elected Mr. Bradlaugh to represent, not their religious views, but their politics; and they had not elected him in consequence of his own religious views. According to the hon. and learned Member for Meath (Mr. A. M. Sullivan), it was in the highest degree to be deprecated that they should allow a class of any appreciable extent to be unrepresented. But it seemed to be of no importance whatever to him if they prevented a constituency from being represented by the Member of its choice. The constituency of Northampton had chosen their Member, and if the law did not deny him the right of representing them, it was an injustice both to the constituency and to the man whom they had elected to keep him out of the House. It had been said that the question had been settled by the decision of a Committee. It, however, was never sent to a Committee for decision. When the Committee was moved for, the hon. and learned Member for Launceston (Sir Hardinge Giffard) insisted that the decision of the Committee could not bind the House, and appealed to him (the Solicitor General)

  1321
  to say whether it was intended that it should bind the House, and obtained from him an acknowledgment on behalf of the Government that it would not do so. All that the question was sent to the Committee for was in order that they might assist the House with their opinion. The Committee were almost equally divided. All that they did was to express their opinion, and that opinion was one of a most doubtful and doubting character; and he asked the House to bear this in mind, that if the minority of the Committee were right—and hon. Gentlemen opposite would allow that that was at least possible—then Mr. Bradlaugh was now, by the law, as it at present stood, legally entitled to sit in that House, and was kept out and prevented from taking his seat in violation of his legal right given to him by the statute law. If that were so, ought he to be deprived of that right because of the view which some of them took of his religious opinions? However much they might dislike Mr. Bradlaugh's opinions, it would be a violation of their duty to prevent him from having his legal rights. Some hon. Gentlemen had urged them to admit no Atheist, but to bar the door against him, unless he knocked very loudly, and then, perhaps, they would open it to him. ["No, no!"] But whether Mr. Bradlaugh was an Atheist or not was entirely beside the question if he had a legal right to sit in that House. He trusted that no hon. Members opposite would again contend that because they hated Mr. Bradlaugh's Atheism, he was to be deprived of any legal right he had. Well, the law, at any rate, was very doubtful. Some thought it was one way, others that it was another. What, then, was to be done? Did hon. Gentlemen really think that in a doubtful question of the construction of a statute, on which a man's legal rights depended, that House, after a heated religious discussion, was the best tribunal to decide the matter by a vote? It was profoundly important that they should do that which was just, but it was almost equally important that they should seem to do it. If they led men to think that they had not done that which was just, but had been actuated to do injustice by passion and prejudice, they would excite in the minds of public, who did not love more than they did the opinions of Mr. Bradlaugh, a feeling that he had suffered
  1322
  wrong; they would arouse a sentiment of sympathy for him, and induce people to feel a certain leaning towards him, and to desire his success. They would, in fact, be playing his game and extending his power and influence, because, if there was one thing more deeply rooted than another in the breasts of the people, it was a love of justice, a love of fair play, and a desire that every man, however obnoxious his opinions might be to others, might have no less than justice done to him. Did hon. Members think that the mass of the people would imagine that justice had been done when there was a doubt as to the legal right of a man to sit in that House, and the House by its own vote irrevocably and without appeal determined against that right, after hearing arguments addressed to its passions and its prejudices in a heated debate? The Resolution of the Prime Minister pointed out how complete justice might be done, and people be at the same time convinced that justice had been done. It proposed to give to Mr. Bradlaugh no more than his strict legal rights. But, on the other hand, if they refused to pass this Resolution, they might be depriving Mr. Bradlaugh of his legal and statutory rights. If he were allowed to affirm, and the law turned out to be what hon. Members opposite said it was, he would subject himself to a penalty, and his seat would be vacated. Legislation by Resolution had been spoken of; but that House could not legislate by Resolution, and, therefore, if they passed this Resolution, it would not give to Mr. Bradlaugh, in the eye of the law, one single right which he had not before, but it would enable him, if he had a right, to keep his seat, and if he had not a right to lose it, in due course of law. It had been said that to pass this Resolution would be contrary, in some way or other, to the dignity of the House. He was wholly unable to follow that reasoning. He believed there could be no falser dignity than for the House to assume that they were the best tribunal to decide a question of law—the best body to perform functions eminently unfit for a Legislature. He denied that it was any breach of the dignity of the House to suggest that the construction of a very difficult and doubtful point of law, which the House had warmly discussed, should be referred to a legal

  1323
  tribunal. A doubt had been suggested whether a Court of Law could decide this question. He was unable to understand how such a doubt existed. He asserted with the utmost confidence that if Mr. Bradlaugh were sued for penalties, no Resolution of that House could for a moment stand in the way of those proceedings. It was said—"Once get Mr. Bradlaugh into the House, and no one will sue him for penalties." Those who said so must have very little confidence in their view of the law. Did they really believe that no one would speculate upon their law, with £500 as a prize? It was said that it was an indignity to ask Mr. Bradlaugh to come and make an Affirmation, and leave him afterwards to be sued for it. This Resolution did not invite Mr. Bradlaugh; he wished to come and make an Affirmation. All that the Resolution said was—"If Mr. Bradlaugh comes here to affirm, this House will no longer stand in his way." Hon. Gentlemen opposite suggested that there should be legislation on this subject. Was that suggestion seriously made? If a Bill were introduced would they support it? If they would not, then the suggestion was made not for the purpose of getting the House out of a difficulty, but with the benevolent intention of getting the Government into one. With one breath hon. Members opposite implored them to shut the door against Mr. Bradlaugh; with the next they said—"You ought to legislate." He might be forgiven, then, if he doubted the sincerity of some of the observations which had come from the Opposition. They were marked by want of sincerity and of straightforwardness, and were made rather with, the view of embarrassing the Government than of relieving the House from the difficult position in which it was placed. Did hon. Gentlemen mean that if a Bill was introduced to admit Mr. Bradlaugh, they would support it? ["No, no!"] It had been said that if the Government would bring in a Bill on the subject, it would meet no factious opposition; but that meant that it would be opposed, possibly at every stage. He was convinced that such a measure would be opposed to an extent that would prevent the Government from carrying any other of their measures. [Laughter.] He understood the meaning of that laugh, and he now understood better than ever why hon.
  1324
  Members opposite desired that the Government should introduce such a Bill. What was to be gained by a prolongation of this controversy? The course proposed by the Prime Minister would relieve the House from a great difficulty, and would relegate the question to the calm atmosphere of the Courts of Law. The Government were actuated by a desire to do what was right, wise, and prudent in this matter. He therefore trusted that the House would yet exhibit not only dignity in its proceedings, but practical wisdom and good sense, by adopting the proposal of the Government.
  SIR R. ASSHETON CROSSsaid, that several hours ago the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had recommended that this debate should be conducted in a calm and judicial spirit; and, for his part, he hoped that the speech to which they had just listened would not lead them to forget that recommendation. He hoped, also, that the House would come to the conclusion that nothing would be gained by the prolongation of this discussion. Whichever side of the House was right or wrong, they clearly understood the question at issue. He should not have felt it necessary to make the observations that he now felt it his duty to make, had it not been for one or two sentences which fell from the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister at the opening of the discussion. In his opinion, the question whether the House had anything to do with the case of a Member who came up to the Table in the ordinary way and asked to be sworn, did not enter at all into the subject before them. They were not discussing the question of the inquisitorial power of the House, though the second Committee had distinctly stated that the House had no power to interfere in such cases. They had declared that the House had no power to put any question to a Member coming up to be sworn, if he did not make any statement of his own. He did not wish to use the word in an offensive sense; but he could not help saying that Mr. Bradlaugh had flaunted or paraded his opinions upon the House, and he was sure that that was a statement which nobody could deny. He was sorry to say, however, that no less an authority than the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had denied the accuracy of that

  1325
  statement. It was, at all events, beyond doubt that Mr. Bradlaugh came to the Table with the avowed purpose of stating there that he was an Atheist. Mr. Brad-laugh, wishing to test the question, acted in such a way as to practically place before the House the fact that he was an avowed Atheist. He desired to state the matter as clearly as possible. Mr. Bradlaugh said—"I am an avowed Atheist, and, as such, I believe it is my right to affirm, and I claim my right." That was what Mr. Bradlaugh stated when he first came to the Table. But for the observation of the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, he (Sir E. Assheton Cross) should not have troubled the House with any remarks upon this part of the case. It was suggested by him that Mr. Bradlaugh had not assumed that attitude. Why? Because the right hon. Gentleman said that Mr. Bradlaugh did not state this until he was asked a question by the Clerk at the Table. That, however, was what he should call special pleading. The right hon. Gentleman apparently forgot that, after the letter which was written by Mr. Bradlaugh to the Speaker, the Clerk at the Table was bound to ask him under what statute he claimed to affirm. This was not done in an inquisitorial manner. It was the consequence of Mr. Bradlaugh's own act. It was only just to Mr. Bradlaugh to say that he came up as of right, and for the purpose of trying the question; and he (Sir R. Assheton Cross) found no fault with him in consequence of his claiming to affirm under that particular statute. It must not be supposed, therefore, that they were even suggesting that the House had any right to make an inquiry of its own if a Member presented himself to take the Oath without bringing to the Notice of the House such matters as Mr. Bradlaugh had referred to. This matter had been carefully inquired into by Select Committees, and the universal opinion of those Committees, in which the Law Officers of the Government joined, was that Mr. Bradlaugh claimed to affirm in consequence of having been allowed to make affirmation in a Court of Justice, and that he thereby stated that he had proved, to the satisfaction of the presiding Judge, that he was an Atheist. The next point upon which he wished the House to be clear was this—that this was no interference with the choice of any consti-
  1326
  tuency. He thought he could prove, to the satisfaction of the House, that there was no such interference. No one wanted to interfere with the rights of any constituency; but a constituency was bound to elect only such persons as they were, by law, entitled to elect. For instance, a constituency could not persevere in returning a convict, aclergyman, or a public officer who was debarred from sitting in Parliament, because the statute limited the choice of the constituency, and excluded those persons. It was likewise provided by statute that no person could take his seat in the House of Commons, although he might have been elected, unless he took the Oath of Allegiance, except in those particular cases in which for conscience sake the Legislature had allowed him to affirm. Therefore, they must dismiss altogether from their minds the idea that the House was by any Resolution of its own attempting to interfere with the choice of a constituency. A constituency might elect whom it would, provided that the person was one of those not debarred by statute from sitting in Parliament, and provided that he made the Oath or Affirmation according to law. The only question, therefore, was whether the person who had been elected for Northampton could take the Oath or make the Affirmation which the statute required. There was another question upon which there should be no doubt in their minds. They were not then discussing, unfortunately, perhaps, the Bill which he held in his hand brought in by the sitting Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere). A great deal had been said on both sides which would be apposite if they were discussing that Bill. The arguments of the hon. Member for Merthyr Tydvil (Mr. Richard) would, no doubt, apply to that Bill; but they had nothing whatever to do with the question now before the House. The grievances which the hon. Member had mentioned were not relevant to the case, and his whole speech would have been more forcible from his point of view if the House had been discussing the Bill. As things were, however, he did not think that the hon. Member's speech had the least bearing upon the question. The law had made a broad distinction between the Oath and the Affirmation. By the Act 29th Elizabeth, the Oath of Allegiance was, as it were, the formal

  1327
  part of the Oath; the essential part of it being the appeal to the Supreme Being to witness the keeping of the promise. What was an affirmation? It was a personal promise on the faith and honour of a human being—at all events, he did not employ the appeal to the Supreme Being, unless, indeed, that appeal was included in the adverb "solemnly." The Legislature having made that distinction, it seemed to him (Sir E. Assheton Cross) to strike some hon. Gentlemen in a peculiar way. He would take the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham's (Mr. John Bright's) arguments, both in the Committee and in that House. The right hon. Gentleman asked what difference there could be between the Oath and the Affirmation, if both were equally binding on the conscience, and had urged, if that was the case, the hon. Member in question should be allowed either to take the Oath, or, if he preferred it, to make the Affirmation. All he (Sir E. Assheton Cross) could say was, that that course was not in accordance with the law. If it were desired to alter the law, it would be necessary to discuss the Bill of the sitting Member for Northampton; but, if not, the law must be taken as they found it. The right hon. Member for Birmingham was not entitled to take the law as he would wish it to be. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had gone even further during this series of debates. In his first speech the right hon. Gentleman argued very strongly that Mr. Bradlaugh ought to be allowed to take the Oath, and, in doing so, he had completely thrown overboard the opinions of his own Secretary of State, and had placed himself under the banner of the hon. and learned Member for Preston (Sir John Holker). The Committee had, however, settled that question as far as a Committee could settle it, and had decided against allowing Mr. Bradlaugh to take the Oath by a great majority. The evidence of Mr. Bradlaugh showed that there was no appeal to the Supreme Being in his mind. Then the right hon. Gentleman said he would take the other side of the question, and see if the House would allow Mr. Bradlaugh to make the Affirmation. It would have, perhaps, been wiser for the right hon. Gentleman to have made up his mind, in the first instance, as to which side he would take. It was clear that,
  1328
  as the law stood, a man could not, according to his own preference, take the Oath, or make the Affirmation, because of the distinct line drawn between the two. If the right. hon. Gentleman would carry his memory back, he would find that he was perfectly willing, in the first instance, to allow the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) to take the Oath without question, and then, when the question was raised by the hon. Member for Portsmouth (Sir H. Drum-ruond Wolf), had said that it was a very serious matter and one that required a judicial tribunal to settle, and that it must be referred to a Select Committee; and now the right hon. Gentleman said that it was, after all, a question of the jurisdiction of the House. That, undoubtedly, had been referred to a Select Committee; and on that particular point the right hon. Gentleman had not only the opinion of his own Law Officers, but the opinion of the Committee, that the Oath taken by Mr. Bradlaugh would be no Oath, and further, that the House had jurisdiction to inquire into the matter. He did not wish to treat this question purely as a legal question; but there was one point which the hon. and learned Gentleman seemed to have forgotten in the course of this discussion—while the Evidence Acts had been under discussion—and that was, that while the Promissory Oaths Act related to the whole of the United Kingdom, the Evidence Acts had reference only to England and Ireland. It was clear, therefore, as the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge had pointed out, that these Acts were intended simply and solely for the benefit of persons who could not otherwise bring evidence into Courts of Law, and that they had nothing to do with the preliminaries of taking a seat in that House. Let them see the natural consequences of this. The right hon. Gentleman said that they ought to pass this Resolution. Why? It appeared to him that the right hon. Gentleman was bound to adduce the very strongest reasons for passing it, because, a very few days ago, they passed precisely an opposite Resolution. Although he differed from the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) on the point of Order raised by him, still he must say that the precedents showed that it was on the rarest possible occa-

  1329
  sions, and only under a pressing necessity, that the House would rescind a Resolution it had passed a few days before. What were the grounds upon which the right hon. Gentleman asked the House to rescind the Resolution? He thought they were as peculiar grounds as bad ever been presented to the House. The right hon. Gentleman stated that the only object he had in view was to protect the dignity of the House, and to insure decency and order in its proceedings. But were they to turn away from the course they thought rightand proper simply because they were threatened that a person would come forward and disturb the proceedings of the House? What would the right hon. Gentleman have done had he led the House in the celebrated Gordon matter? Were they to be frightened by the action of one man, or by the action of mobs? Was the House to change its course, deliberately taken, because it was frightened by some action which one man might take, or because it was frightened by the action of a mob in the streets? That would not be maintaining the order and decency of the House. It would be a question of what was to become of all government. The right hon. Gentleman had talked of precedents; but if they were asked to change their course because they could not maintain decency and order, owing to the improper conduct of one single man, that was a precedent he would never have expected to be recommended by any Minister of the Crown. Talk of dignity and order ! He could conceive no greater indignity imposed upon that House, upon the Government—or upon any Government—than to say that because they were frightened they were to change their course. He would have thought the only course to be followed would have been to bring in a Bill to solve the difficulty. The hon. and learned Gentlemen who had just sat down had said that this matter might have been left to be decided by Courts of Law; but he had not shown how the Courts of Law could deal with the question. The hon. and learned Gentleman had stated very properly that no Resolution of the House could affect a decision of the Courts of Law; but if Mr. Bradlaugh were to come in by a Resolution of the House, make an Affirmation, and sign the Roll, would the Court of Law
  1330
  go behind that Roll to ascertain whether or not he ought to have been sworn? That was a very difficult point. But there was another difficulty which it would be equally difficult for the House to get out of. If the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Bradlaugh) took his seat, any single Member might get up to move for the issue of a new Writ on the ground that the seat was vacant, as if the hon. Member were dead, because he had taken the Affirmation improperly. That question might be properly raised not only on one day, but on any day of the Session. The right hon. Gentlemen had said that there were three objections to legislation. He supposed that if there were more the right hon. Gentleman would have mentioned them. The first objection was that they could not discuss the matter in cold blood; but that objection applied precisely with the same force to the Resolution as to any Bill that might be brought forward. Another objection was that legislation on this subject would involve a great sacrifice of other measures. He must say he deeply sympathized with the right hon. Gentleman on the sacrifice of time; but they might depend upon it that, whatever the fate of this Resolution was, it would not settle the question. Legislation must be brought forward, whatever the sacrifice of time. Then came the third reason—namely, the dignity and decency of the House. "Was there the smallest security," said the right hon. Gentleman, "that the hon. Member for Northampton would not, day by day during the passing of the Bill, come forward and occasion such scenes as occurred on Wednesday week?" Timidity again! Twice over in the same speech the same point was pressed. He hoped they would hear no more of such arguments. If this Resolution were passed, the real effect of it would be as suggested by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor General, to say to Mr. Bradlaugh, "You may come and take the Affirmation at your own peril, and we will shut our eyes." He said that was cowardly and unfair towards Mr. Bradlaugh, and it was a solution of the question which would inevitably bring the House of Commons into conflict with the Courts of Law. If, on the other hand, the effect of the Resolution was to protect Mr. Bradlaugh from an action for penal-

  1331
  ties, or from a Motion of any Member of the House that his seat was vacant, for that was the statutory right of the House, then he (Sir E. Assheton Cross) said that, by a Resolution of the House, they were endeavouring to do away with the Statute Law of the country. He hoped that the House would be cautious not to follow the right hon. Gentleman in that matter. He had led the House in the same way on former occasions. It was by the same kind of action that he had passed the Army Warrant, and it was by a similar course of proceeding that he had filled up the Ewelme Rectory. These were arbitrary acts, done by the Prerogative of the Crown, on the advice of the Prime Minister, and not by the action of the House of Commons. If this Resolution was to have any practical effect, it would be placing the act of the House of Commons above that of the other branches of the Legislature. Was the Prime Minister quite sure that he was gaining his object? Was he in the confidence of Mr. Bradlaugh or not? What did he offer to Mr. Bradlaugh?—"If you choose to come to the Table, and say, 'I want to make an Affirmation,' we will shut our eyes, and let you affirm." But the last action of Mr. Bradlaugh was to inform Mr. Speaker that he no longer wished to affirm. What he now said was that he wanted to take the Oath, and he insisted on that as his right, and he asked the Prime Minister what he should do? What would then become of the dignity of the House? What would become of the decency and the order of their proceedings, if, tomorrow, Mr. Bradlaugh came down and said he desired to take the Oath? Were they going to shut their eyes while they had a repetition of former scenes. So far as this Resolution went it would not get them out of the difficulty. This question would require legislation. At the present moment he admitted that legislation would be almost impossible. He agreed that it would take a long time; but it was not necessary to legislate this Session, or in a hurry. Legislation might be very good in itself, but it might be inopportune. They could have no stronger instance of inopportune legislation than that of the salutary law for preventing conspiracies to murder. It was, in the first instance, brought forward by one of the strongest and most
  1332
  popular Prime Ministers, and it had, when passed some years afterwards, worked great good; but it cost the Prime Minister loss of Office, because the country thought it was brought forward at the dictation of a foreign Power. If the right hon. Gentleman brought forward a Bill now, it would be felt in the House of Commons, and in the country, that he was doing it to let in an Atheist, and it was, therefore, not an opportune time to legislate. If in the course of time there were a class of persons who objected to take the Oath, and it were proposed to legislate alio intuitu, it might be fairly discussed; but let them take care, whether they proceeded by Resolution or by legislation, that they were not supposed by the country to be doing it for the purpose of letting in an Atheist, or because they were not strong enough to lay aside their timidity, or doubted their ability for preserving the dignity of the House and the order and decency of its proceedings.
  MR. O'DONNELLsaid, the observations he was about to make were in no way calculated unnecessarily to prolong the discussion. He ventured to think, however, that from the action which he had taken on former stages of the question then before the House, and from the remarks which had in many quarters been passed upon that action, he had some claim briefly to explain himself. He did not propose to go into any lengthy argumentative statement. In his opinion, the speech to which they had just listened had completely disposed of the legal position on which the Government, to his regret, had rested their case. At the same time, he was bound to say that he opposed the Resolution of the Government because it was an open attempt to substitute legislation by convention for legislation by Parliament. It was as distinctly a revolutionary procedure as could be carried through in any simple House, without any division into estates of the Realm, upon which the institutions of this country were founded. He would not stop to consider whether that revolutionary procedure deserved the applause of hon. Gentlemen opposite. The proceeding dictated by the Government deprived hon. Members of all their right of examining this question at due length, and of properly consulting the opinion of the country on that most grave and fundamental alteration. The humblest

  1333
  and most insignificant Bill upon the most trivial subject would necessarily have more opportunity for the full discussion of the petty details which it involved, than had been afforded to the House, and, above all, to the country at large, by the manner in which the Government had chosen to deal with this Resolution. It was objected against the opponents of the Resolution that they had endeavoured to punish a man for his speculative opinions, that they had endeavoured to turn cheap speculative Atheism out of the House. The manner in which the House had been forced to consider the sort of side issue presented to them prevented them from examining whether or not it was true that they were trying to keep out speculative Atheism, or whether speculative Atheism ought to be kept out or not. He ventured to say that it was at least open to question whether such Atheism as this was speculative—"Christianity is an eating cancer." He was not going even to answer the question which he had raised; but he thought it right to put it before hon. Members opposite who had accused the opponents of the Government proposal of intolerance of opinion. He altogether declined to approach the consideration of the subject from any Party standpoint; but ventured to appeal alike to Dissenters, who held in reverence, as all did, the pure zeal of Wesley and Whitfield, and to members of the Church of England, the history of whose Church contained so many names of men whom the members of his (Mr. O'Donnell's) own Church honoured, as defenders of Christianity. Was it speculative Atheism to teach that Christianity was an eating cancer, poisoning the whole lifeblood of the world; that it was blasphemy against humanity? Was it speculative Atheism to teach that Christianity was a natural production like typhus fever? Was it speculative Atheism to teach that Christ's mission was a sham, and that Christ himself was a coward and a craven, and that the atonement stamped God as an inhuman monster, and a foul and bloody-minded being? [Murmurs.] He took those sounds from the opposite Benches to be expressive of horror at the sentiments expressed by Mr. Bradlaugh. If, then, such grave matters were involved as were included in the question which he had asked, he held it to be the duty of the Government to a Christian people
  1334
  to offer them every opportunity for examining whether or not it was mild speculative Atheism which was being attempted to be brought into the House, or whether it was an active and corrupting Atheism disseminating the seeds of the worst principles amongst the people. It might be that both speculative Atheism and practical Atheism were entitled to entrance into the Legislature; but he held that Her Majesty's Government—whether the Cabinet were Liberal or Conservative—were bound to give full opportunity for considering the question whether or not men who claimed to be merely animals—he could use a grosser word, and one that would be much more applicable—had a right to sit in legislation over a Christian community recognizing moral responsibilities. He complained that it was not the Bradlaugh question or the Northampton question which was before the House. He complained that it was a question relating to the justly-honoured Head of Her Majesty's Government. It was the impulsive and generous action of that man, himself religious, most widely revered and honoured—by no one more than himself (Mr. O'Donnell)—that distinguished statesman, which had made the question what it was. The whole action of the right hon. Gentleman, doubtless proceeding from conscientious motives, had been calculated to stir up every possible opposition throughout the country to the solemn decision of the House of Commons; and it must be remembered that the solemn decision referred to had not been arrived at under any pressure of Party terrors. No threat had been held out to Members on that occasion to vote under pain of Dissolution. It had been the distinguishing feature of the former debate that there was perfect freedom in the formation of the opinion at which the House arrived. He was afraid they could not conceal from themselves that since the House had expressed itself deliberately and freely, an element of dictatorship, so far as dictatorship could exist there, had been introduced into the House. Whether that dictatorship was founded on the esteem and reverence for the eminent man who exercised it was quite beside the question. The vast influence of that statesman, and all the forces of his Government, had been thrown into the scale, in order to obtain the virtual rescinding

  1335
  of a Resolution passed by the free and unconstrained judgment of that House. If they looked to the public outside, was there a man, through the length and breadth of the country, who would for a moment weigh in the balance, and judge to be of equal weight, the unconstrained votes of the other day, and the constrained vote which the Government sought to wring by their Party majority that evening? He claimed to know something of the workings of public opinion among various classes in the country. He had had to deal with Englishmen in many towns, and of many classes of society, in the course of several years; and on many occasions, he believed, he had gone as near to a just estimate of public opinion in this country as some of his Colleagues. He paused, for a moment, to suggest to hon. Members that if they wished to add weight to the decision they were about to come to, they would do well not to suppress the opinions of a Colleague who never flinched from openly expressing his views. He strongly protested against the idea and assertion that there was any agitation in the country in favour of the course which the Government had adopted worthy to be taken into the consideration of that House. The people of England had not spoken. It was only the wirepullers who had done so. The word had gone out from the central officers, and all the local officers had taken up the cry. The more respected leaders of the working classes entertained no manner of doubt as to the real character of the issue which the elect of Northampton had sought to force upon the House, but which could never have been put forward without the assistance of hon. Gentlemen. There was no leader of the working classes in England more widely respected than George J. Holyoake. In mentioning his name, he mentioned one who had worked in the cause of the working man's emancipation, and was the sympathetic historian of the co-operative movement—a man for whose declining years his fellows, the working classes, had raised a sum sufficient to provide him with a pension. Mr. Holyoake had, then, expressed his opinions, which, as a representative of the working classes, had the greatest weight—
  "The reason why the elect of Northampton did not seek to affirm, and did not seek to swear
  1336
  right away, without forcing his peculiar opinions on the House, and endeavouring to make us accomplices in these opinions, was that there would have been no scene, and no Bradlaugh Committee, and no discussion in which the constituency of Northampton would have been engaged with regard to the personal opinions which the Members might hold. If any Members of the House had raised an objection to Mr. Bradlaugh making an Affirmation, the country would have been with him, as a person who was being persecuted for his opinions. But when he challenged the opinion of the House to his views, he provoked discussion upon them."
  Again, Mr. Holyoake said—
  "I agree that when Mr. Bradlaugh proposed taking the Oath he was justified in giving the House the information. He was, so far, acting honourably; but he must have known that it was impossible for the House to allow him to take the Oath; that would be to make the whole thing into a farce, and convert the House into a company of spectators to witness it. How could he stand up, and utter the closing words and kiss the Bible in the presence of hundreds of English gentlemen who have a regard for self-respect? The House would never forget a scone like this, and there were many gentlemen in the House, although their actions might not always be of the most creditable character."
  Such was the speech of a man whose name would be honoured by the working classes of the country long after the names of the wire-pullers who had climbed up on their shoulders had been forgotten. Mr. Holyoake went on to say—
  "Mr. Bradlaugh lost prestige in the House as soon as he proposed to take the Oath. An oath, and the formal 'So help me, God,' means nothing to him. He has always protested against it; and yet, now finding that it stands in his way, he offers to swallow it."
  The opinion thus expressed was certainly not that of a Conservative working man, or of a warm defender of the Church of England; but of a man who deserved to be called the representative leader of the working classes. The Prime Minister had declared the other day that nothing could be interposed between Mr. Bradlaugh and the Oath; but he was not quite sure that Affirmation was the correct way to approach the question. The proposal of the right hon. Gentleman had been marked with vacillation and indecision; and the distinguishing mark of his policy had been an attempt which the hon. and learned Gentleman the Solicitor General (Sir Farrer Herschell) described as actuated by prudence, and which had been characterized on that side of the House as actuated by cowardice. But, whether or not that

  1337
  was so, his policy had been to keep the main and particular issues from the consideration of the Chamber. Leaving aside altogether the argumentative questions, which had been sufficiently discussed and made quite clear to the mind of the House, he (Mr. O'Donnell) ventured to add a few words of what might be called a personal explanation. He had been in a special manner singled out as a bigot by the supporters of the Government proposals. The leading organs of the Government had gone so far as to describe him as a bigot of the Spanish type. But he desired to state that he was not actuated by any sectarian considerations as a Catholic in the action which he had taken. Had he acted as a sectarian Catholic, he would have been carrying out the policy of the Church of Rome, and as it were the narrow policy which some hon. Members inaugurated, by supporting the proposal to destroy the Christian character of the Parliament of Protestant England. But, believing as he, and as multitudes outside the House did, that they were on the very verge of the blackest act of public apostacy, had he been a mere narrow Catholic he might well have contented himself with taunting the supporters of such a proposal by telling them to go to their meetings for the propagation of the Gospel, to assemble in their May Meetings and denounce the corruptions of Rome. He might have said that, as a Catholic, he could not regret the course adopted by the Government of that great Protestant England, whose Missions trod so closely upon the Missions of the Catholic Church throughout the world; and he could have warned them that no long time would be allowed to elapse before the most distant tribes and people learned that a deliberate vote of the House of Commons had erased England from the list of Christian Kingdoms. But he had been actuated by no Catholic sectarianism, if such a word were applicable. He had preferred to act legally with his Colleagues of every faith, and had chosen, and still chose, to raise and reap whatever odium might be thrown upon him for his action in this matter. He believed no one could more bitterly regret than the Prime Minister the conclusion to which he was forcing the House. As for the particular individual sought to be introduced, he sank into insignificance compared with the vast-
  1338
  ness of the principle involved. But if the Resolution of the Government were passed, England would be stripped of every right to be considered a Christian country, and the little seed that was sown to-day would be found to attain to vast proportions before many years had passed away.
  MR. HUSSEY VIVIANsaid, that he had no intention of trespassing long upon the time of the House at that hour. But he had risen on four or five occasions in the course of the debate, and had not been fortunate enough to catch the eye of Mr. Speaker. His reason for rising was that many hon. Members, who thought as he did, had requested him to state their views upon this matter. The question upon which they were going to vote was widely different from that upon which they had voted before. This Resolution affirmed a broad and sound principle—it affirmed that the House had no right to put any question to any Member desirous of taking the Oath or Affirmation, in regard to his religious opinions, and upon that broad principle he should record his vote in favour of the Resolution. That was a broad principle widely differing from anything which was included in the narrow and miserable Resolution upon which they were called on to vote the other night. If that Resolution had been passed, they would have resolved that Mr. Bradlaugh had a right to affirm. He should be very sorry indeed to have voted for a Resolution which was personal to Mr. Bradlaugh and sanctioned his right to affirm. Of course, he admitted that this Resolution included Mr. Bradlaugh; but it was a broad and general Resolution, and laid down the principle that the House had no right to question any hon. Member upon his religious belief. In the House there was no presiding Judge as in the Courts of Law. Mr. Speaker was not in the position of presiding Judge, and the Clerk at the Table was the servant of the House. The presiding Judge in the case of the House was the conscience of every hon. Member who came to the Table to take the Oath. If any man came to that Table to take the Oath improperly, he rightly subjected himself to the pains and penalties which followed if he were prosecuted and proved guilty. While approving of the Resolution, he could not agree with the right

  1339
  hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister that there was no danger of the Order of the House being disturbed. His impression was that the House was quite strong enough to preserve its own Order. With reference to the remarks of the hon. Member who had last spoken (Mr. O'Donnell), he (Mr. Hussey Vivian) could state that no pressure direct or indirect had been brought to bear upon him. Did hon. Members opposite doubt what he said? He most distinctly stated that no pressure had been brought to bear upon him. He entirely agreed with what had fallen from the right hon. Gentleman the late Secretary of State for the Home Department, that legislation must follow upon this subject. The other day he gave Notice of a Motion that the Oath should be repealed, and that hon. Members should make one common Affirmation. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister had stated that legislation of this kind at the present moment was impossible. They must, therefore, deal with the question as it now stood, and upon the broad principle that the House had no right to ask any man questions as to his religious belief.
  GENERAL BURNABY: It has been asked what the State has to do with religion, and why should it interfere with the direction of men's consciences? The State has no concern with religion where religion has no concern with the State. But are we, in the laws and customs of this religious country, to exclude all consideration of religion; are we, the trustees for the time being of this august Assembly, to suffer God to be blasphemed by a blasphemer, and to call in the assistance of an avowed Atheist to maintain and frame laws for believers in a Supreme Being? The voice of this Assembly has already decided this important issue, and I have heard no fresh arguments adduced within the House to alter that decision; whilst, outside it, I read and hear of numbers without end who support that decision and regard with horror the idea of proposing to rescind it. It so happens that, under the Administration of Lord Palmerston, I was employed on special service in Syria for the purpose of bringing justice to Christian, Druse, Jew, and Greek; and, in the fulfilment of those duties, I was naturally brought amongst religious communities, and
  1340
  have since mixed freely among those of my own country, a circumstance which led me to obtain opinions from various religious authorities upon the matter at issue. An eminent Moravian has written to me, to say that—
  "The action being taken to introduce an avowed Atheistin to the House of Commons has not his sanction or approval."
  The Bishop of London writes to say, that—
  "He could not give any sanction to the attempt to force an avowed Atheist upon Parliament."
  I was also desirous to obtain the opinion of Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland, and therefore appealed to several. The Bishop of Ossory says that—"The people of Ireland are quite indignant at the attempt to instal Atheism in Parliament;" adding, that it was an old saying that "the man that is not true to God will not be true to his country." Next, what did the Bishop of Raphoe say? He stated that—"He had no sympathy with hon. Members who supported Mr. Bradlaugh."
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, that he desired to point out to hon. and gallant Member that he was not entitled to read his speech.
  MR. A. MOOREsaid, he rose to Order. He wished to ask whether it was not competent for the hon. and gallant Member (General Burnaby) to read extracts from telegrams or letters addressed to him by other persons? The hon. and gallant Member was not reading his speech.
  GENERAL BURNABYsaid, that he had not a single word written down except quotations. He was reading from replies which he had received to letters and telegrams. Therefore, with the permission of Mr. Speaker, he would continue to read some of the replies which he had received. The Bishop of Raphoe went on to say that—
  "Mr. Bradlaugh was endeavouring to make his entry into Parliament a protest against God, and that supporting him in that course was to abandon every Catholic principle."
  The Archbishop of Dublin said that the hon. Gentlemen who voted for Mr. Bradlaugh could not be Catholics. The Bishop of Galway was also opposed to the admission of Atheists into Parliament, and said that—

  1341
  "He utterly reprobated the conduct of hon. Members who attempted to force an avowed Atheist upon Parliament. Such conduct, "he added," was very reprehensible."
  The Bishop of Downe and Connor says, that his opinion is—"That some security should be had to preserve the Christian Parliament." The Bishop of Ardagh's opinion is—
  "That an Assembly of Christian gentlemen ought to be able to exclude from their body a person objectionable to their sense of religion and decency."
  His Holiness the Pope "gives no sanction to such a proceeding." He had also endeavoured to obtain the opinion of an eminent Baptist—Mr. Spurgeon—who, unfortunately, was not at home; but the person fulfilling his duties had written to state he should certainly think that Mr. Spurgeon would be opposed to any attempt to introduce an Atheist into Parliament. The Chief Rabbi said that—
  "He did not deem it advisable to interfere in political questions however strongly he felt on the subject."
  The Superior of the Greek Orthodox Church said that, as a minister of a Christian Church, "he could not but deeply regret every Atheistical proselytism." Amongst others, a letter which I have received, is one from a Presbyterian, who said—
  "I deplore the election of one holding avowed Atheistical opinions, and sympathize so far in that he should not be a Member of the Legislature. But men do not sit there on the ground of their religious or irreligious views; and having already adopted, as I think this country has done, the position that religious belief should not be a condition of Membership, it seems to me the elect of Northampton has a clear constitutional right to his seat."
  And he adds his further opinion that—
  "The present conflict is not only most unseemly, but is actually such an advertisement of Mr. Bradlaugh in the guise of a martyr, as is really scandalous."
  While I agree with the first and the latter portions of this Presbyterian's views, I do not with the other portion, and will contrast it with the words that fell from the lips of the Bishop of Peterborough in his Cathedral on the occasion of the Queen's Accesion, his text being, "Render unto Cæsar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's," His Lordship said—
  1342
  "The one sentence was the strength of authority, the other was the defence, of liberty; and on these words of Christ the claims of peace and order, and, on the other hand, of liberty of religion and worship, had always rested, and must rest, to the very end. They saw of what preciousness religion was to a nation's life, to a life that was peaceful and settled, to a life of righteous and well regulated liberty. They could see and understand, then, what an immense meaning the Oath of Allegiance so frequently administered to Her Majesty's subjects in various capacities possessed, not merely as regarded the authority of the Sovereign, but involving also the liberty and rights of the subject. When a man who was to make the laws of his country took the Book in his hand and promised allegiance to England's Caesar, he did it in the name of God; and when he said' So help me God,' he invoked as the witness of the compact between him and his Sovereign the common Judge of both. Alas for our liberty and order, if from the public acts and deeds of the nation we thereby blotted out the recognition of the name of God!"
  Sir, I have completed my purpose, and would remind hon. Members of the Prime Minister's words after the House had patiently, in the exercise of its generous indulgence, heard Mr. Bradlaugh, when the hon. Member for Northampton (Mr. Labouchere) moved that the Resolution of the previous day, not to permit Mr. Bradlaugh to make an Affirmation or Declaration instead of the Oath required by law, be rescinded. The right hon. Gentleman then said—"There cannot be the smallest possible hope that the House will rescind the Resolution. If it did, it would be a loss of dignity which he did not desire under the circumstances." I also am of the latter opinion. I believe that by rescinding that Resolution the House would not do the smallest good, but would entail upon itself a loss of dignity and consistency which would be greatly to be deplored in this moral and religious country.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 303; Noes 249: Majority, 54.

  AYES.

  Acland, Sir T. D.

  Arnold, A.

  Adam, rt. hon. W. V.

  Ashley, hon. E. M.

  Agnew, W.

  Balfour, Sir G.

  Ainsworth, D.

  Balfour, J. S.

  Allen, H. G.

  Barclay, J. W.

  Allen, W. S.

  Baring, Viscount

  Amory, Sir J. H.

  Barnes, A.

  Anderson, G.

  Barran, J.

  Armitage, B.

  Barry, J.

  Armitstead, G.

  Bass, A.

  1343

  Baxter, rt. hon. W. E.

  Egerton. Adm. hon. F.

  Beaumont, W. B.

  Evans, T. W.

  Biddulph, M.

  Fairbairn, Sir A.

  Biggar, J. G.

  Farquharson, Dr. R.

  Bolton, J. C.

  Fawcett, rt. hon. H.

  Borlase, W. C.

  Fay, C. J.

  Brand, H. E.

  Ferguson, R.

  Brassey, H. A.

  Ffolkes, Sir W. H. B.

  Brassey, T.

  Finigan, J. L.

  Brett, R. B.

  Firth, J. F. B.

  Briggs, W. E.

  Fitzwilliam, hn. H. W.

  Bright, J. (Manchester)

  Flower, C.

  Bright, rt. hon. J.

  Foljambe, C. G. S.

  Brinton, J.

  Foljambe, F. J. S.

  Broadhurst, H.

  Forster, Sir C.

  Brogden, A.

  Forster, rt. hon. W. E.

  Brown, A. H.

  Fort, R.

  Bruce, rt. hon. Lord C.

  Fowler, H. H.

  Bruce, hon. B. P.

  Fowler, W.

  Bryce, J.

  Fry, L.

  Burt, T.

  Fry, T.

  Buszard, M. C.

  Gladstone, rt. hn. W.E.

  Butt, C. P.

  Gladstone, H. J.

  Buxton, F. W.

  Gladstone, W. H.

  Caine, W. S.

  Glyn, hon. S. C.

  Cameron, C.

  Gordon, Sir A.

  Campbell, Sir G.

  Gordon, Lord D.

  Campbell, R. F. F.

  Gourley, E. T.

  Campbell -Bannerman, H.

  Gower, hon. E. F. L.

  Grant, A.

  Carbutt, E. H.

  Grant, D.

  Carington, hon. R.

  Grant, Sir G. M.

  Carington.hon. Col.W. H. P.

  Gray, E. D.

  Grey, A. H. G.

  Cartwright, W. C.

  Hamilton, J. G. C.

  Causton, R. K.

  Harcourt, rt. hon. Sir W. G. V. V.

  Cavendish, Lord E.

  Cavendish, Lord F. C.

  Hardcastle, J. A.

  Chamberlain, rt. hn. J.

  Hartington, Marq. of

  Chambers, Sir T.

  Havelock-Allan, Sir H.

  Cheetham, J. F.

  Hayter, Sir A. D.

  Childers,rt.hn.H.C.E.

  Henderson, F.

  Chitty, J. W.

  Heneage, E.

  Clarke, J. C.

  Herschell, Sir F.

  Cohen, A.

  Hibbert, J. T.

  Collings, J.

  Hill, T. R.

  Colman, J. J.

  Holland, S.

  Corbett, J.

  Hollond, J. R.

  Cotes, C. C.

  Holms, J.

  Courtauld, G.

  Hopwood, C. H.

  Courtney, L. H.

  Howard, E. S.

  Cowan, J.

  Howard, J.

  Cowen, J.

  Hughes, W. B.

  Craig, W. Y.

  Hutchinson, J. D.

  Creyke, R.

  Illingworth, A.

  Cross, J. K.

  Inderwiek, F. A.

  Cunliffe, Sir R. A.

  Ingram, W. J.

  Currie, D.

  Jackson, Sir H. M.

  Davey, H.

  James, C.

  Davies, D.

  James, Sir H.

  Davies, R.

  James, W. H.

  Davies, W.

  Jardine, R.

  De Ferrieres, Baron

  Jenkins, D. J.

  Dilke. A. W.

  Johnson, E.

  Dilke, Sir C. W.

  Johnson, W. M.

  Dillwyn, L. L.

  Johnstone, Sir H.

  Dodds, J.

  Joicey, Colonel J,

  Dodson, rt. hon. J. G.

  Kingscote, Col. R.N.F.

  Duff, rt. hon. M. E. G

  Labouchere, H.

  Dundas. hon. J. C.

  Laing, S.

  Earp, T.

  Lambton, hon. F. W.

  Edwards, H.

  Law, rt. hon. H.

  Edwards, P.

  Lawley, hon. B.

  1344

  Lawrance, Sir J. C

  Pulley, J.

  Lawrence, W.

  Ralli, P.

  Lawson, Sir W.

  Ramsay, Lord

  Laycock, R.

  Ramsden, Sir J.

  Leake, R.

  Reed, Sir C.

  Leatham, E. A.

  Reed, E. J.

  Leatham, W.

  Reid, R. T.

  Lee, H.

  Rendel, S.

  Leeman, J. J.

  Richard, H.

  Lefevre, G. J. S.

  Richardson, T.

  Leigh, hon. G. H. C.

  Roberts, J.

  Litton, E. F.

  Robertson, H.

  Lloyd, M.

  Rogers, J. E. T.

  Lubbock, Sir J.

  Rothschild, Sir N.M.de

  Lusk, Sir A.

  Roundell, C. S.

  Lymington, Viscount

  Russell, G. W. E.

  Macdonald, A.

  Russell, Lord A.

  Mackie, R. B.

  Rylands, P.

  Mackintosh, C. F.

  St. Aubyn, Sir J.

  Macliver, P. S.

  Samuelson, B.

  M'Arthur, A.

  Samuelson, H.

  M'Arthur, W.

  Seely, C. (Nottingham)

  M'Carthy, J.

  Sheridan, H. B.

  M'Intyre, Æ. J.

  Shield, H.

  M'Laren, C. B. B.

  Simon, Serjeant J.

  M'Laren, D.

  Slagg, J.

  M'Minnies, J. G.

  Smith, E.

  Magniac, C.

  Spencer, hon. C. R.

  Maitland, W. F.

  Stanley, hon. E. L.

  Mappin, F. T.

  Stansfeld, rt. hon. J.

  Marjoribanks, Sir D. C.

  Stanton, W. J.

  Marjoribanks, E.

  Stevenson, J. C.

  Marriott, W. T.

  Stewart, J.

  Mason, H.

  Story-Maskelyne,M.H.

  Massey, rt. hon. W. N.

  Summers, W.

  Maxwell, J. H. M.

  Talbot, C. R. M.

  Mellor, J. W.

  Taylor, P. A.

  Metge, R. H.

  Tennant, C.

  Middleton, R. T.

  Thomasson, J. P.

  Milbank, F. A.

  Thompson, Sir H. M.

  Monk, C. J.

  Thompson, T. C.

  Moreton, Lord

  Tillett, J. H.

  Morgan, rt. hon. G. O.

  Tracy, hon. F. S. A. Hanbury-

  Morley, A.

  Mundella, rt. hon. A.J.

  Trevelyan, G. O.

  Noel, E.

  Villiers, rt. hon. C. P.

  Nolan, Major J. P.

  Vivian, H. H.

  Norwood, C. M.

  Walter, J.

  O'Beirne, Major F.

  Waugh, E.

  O'Connor, T.P.

  Webster, Dr. J.

  O'Gorman Mahon, Col.

  Wedderburn, Sir D.

  The

  Whalley, G. H.

  O' Kelly, J.

  Whitbread, S.

  Otway, A.

  Whitwell, J.

  Paget, T. T.

  Whitworth, B.

  Palmer, C. M.

  Wiggin, H.

  Palmer, G.

  Williams, B. T.

  Palmer, J. H.

  Williams, S. C. E.

  Parker, C. S.

  Williams, W.

  Parnell, C. S.

  Williamson, S.

  Pease, A.

  Willis, W.

  Pease, J. W.

  Wills, W. H.

  Peddie, J. D.

  Willyams, E. W. B.

  Peel, A. W.

  Wilson, C. H.

  Pennington, F.

  Wilson, I.

  Philips, R. N.

  Wilson, Sir M.

  Playfair, rt. hon. L.

  Wodehouse, E. R.

  Portman, hn. W. H. B

  Woodall, W.

  Potter, T. B.

  Woolff, S.

  Powell, W. R. H.

  Power, J. O'C.

  TELLERS.

  Price, Sir R. G.

  Grosvenor, Lord R.

  Pugh, L. P,

  Kensington, Lord

  1345

  NOES.

  Alexander, Colonel

  Elcho, Lord

  Amherst, W. A. T.

  Elliot, G. W.

  Archdale, W. H.

  Errington, G.

  Ashmead-Bartlett, E.

  Estcourt, G. S.

  Aylmer, J. E. F.

  Ewart, W.

  Bailey, Sir J. B.

  Ewing, A. O.

  Balfour, A. J.

  Feilden, Maj -Gen. R. J.

  Baring, T. C.

  Fellowes, W. H.

  Barne, F. St. J. N.

  Fenwick-Bisset, M.

  Barttelot, Sir W. B.

  Filmer, Sir E.

  Bateson, Sir T.

  Finch, G. H.

  Beach, rt. hon. Sir M.H.

  Fitzpatrick, hn. B.E.B.

  Beach, W. W. B.

  Fitzwilliam, hon. C. W. W.

  Bellingham, A. H.

  Bentinck, rt. hon. G. C.

  Fletcher, Sir H.

  Bentinck, G. W. P.

  Floyer, J.

  Beresford, G. do la P.

  Foley, J. W.

  Biddell, W.

  Folkestone, Viscount

  Birkbeck, E.

  Forester, C. T. W.

  Birley, H.

  Foster, W. H.

  Blackburne, Col. J. I.

  Fowler, B. N.

  Blake, J. A.

  Fremantle, hon. T. F.

  Boord, T. W.

  Gabbett, D. F.

  Bourke, right hon. R.

  Galway, Viscount

  Brise, S. R.

  Garfit, T.

  Broadley, W. H. H.

  Gardner, R. Richardson-

  Brodrick, hon. W. St. J. F.

  Garnier, J. C.

  Brooke, Lord

  Gibson, rt. hon. E.

  Brooks, W. C.

  Giffard, Sir H. S.

  Bruce, Sir H. H.

  Goldney, Sir G.

  Brymer, W. E.

  Gooch, Sir D.

  Burghley, Lord

  Gore-Langton, W. S.

  Burnaby, General E. S.

  Gorst, J. E.

  Burrell, Sir W. W.

  Grantham, W.

  Buxton, Sir R. J.

  Greene, E.

  Byrne, G. M.

  Greer, T.

  Callan, P.

  Gregory, G. B.

  Cameron, D.

  Hall, A. W.

  Campbell, J. A.

  Halsey, T. F.

  Carden, Sir R. W.

  Hamilton, I. T.

  Castlereagh, Viscount

  Hamilton, right hon. Lord G.

  Cecil, Lord E. H. B. G.

  Chaine, J.

  Harcourt, E. W.

  Chaplin, H.

  Harvey, Sir B. B.

  Christie, W. L.

  Helmsley, Viscount

  Churchill, Lord B.

  Herbert, hon. S.

  Clive, Col. hon. G. W.

  Hermon, E.

  Close, M. C.

  Hicks, E.

  Cobbold, T. C.

  Hildyard, T. B. T.

  Coddington, W.

  Hill, Lord A. W.

  Cole, Viscount

  Hill, A. S.

  Coope, O. E.

  Hinchingbrook, Visc.

  Corbet, W. J.

  Holker, Sir J.

  Corry, J. P.

  Holland, Sir H. T.

  Cotton, W. J. R.

  Hope,rt,hn.A.J.B.B.

  Crompton-Roberts, C.

  Hubbard, rt. hon. J.

  Cross, rt. hon. Sir R. A.

  Jackson, W. L.

  Cubitt, rt. hon. G.

  Johnstone, Sir F.

  Daly, J.

  Kennard, Col. E. H.

  Davenport, H. T.

  Kennaway, Sir J. H.

  Dawnay, Col. hon. L. P.

  Knight, F. W.

  De Worms, Baron H.

  Knightley, Sir R.

  Dickson, Major A. G.

  Knowles, T.

  Digby, Col. hon. E.

  Lawrance, J. C.

  Donaldson-Hudson, C.

  Lawrence, Sir T.

  Douglas, A. Akers-

  Leamy, E.

  Dyke,rt.hn. Sir W.H.

  Lechmere, Sir E. A. H.

  Dyott, Colonel R.

  Lee, Major V.

  Egerton, Sir P. G.

  Legh, W. J.

  Egerton, hon. W.

  Leigh, R.

  1346

  Leighton, Sir B.

  Puleston, J. H.

  Leighton, S.

  Rankin, J.

  Lennox, Lord H. G.

  Redmond, W. A.

  Lever, J. O.

  Rendlesham, Lord

  Lewis, C. E.

  Repton, G. W.

  Lewisham, Viscount

  Ridley, Sir M. W.

  Lindsay, Col. B. L.

  Ritchie, C. T.

  Lindsay, Lord

  Rodwell, B. B. H.

  Loder, R.

  Bolls, J. A.

  Long, W. H.

  Boss, A. H.

  Lopes, Sir M.

  Round, J.

  Lowther, hon. W.

  Russell, Sir C.

  Lyons, B. D.

  St. Aubyn, W. M;

  Macartney, J. W. E.

  Sandon, Viscount

  Mac Iver, D.

  Schreiber, C.

  Macnaghten, E.

  Sclater-Booth, rt. hn. G.

  M'Coan, J. C.

  Scott, Lord H.

  M'Garel-Hogg, Sir J.

  Scott, M. D.

  Makins, Colonel W. T.

  Selwin - Ibbetson, Sir H. J.

  Manners, rt. hn. Lord J.

  March, Earl of

  Severne, J. E.

  Martin, P.

  Smith, A.

  Marum, E. M.

  Smith, rt. hon. W. H.

  Master, T. W. C.

  Smyth, P. J.

  Maxwell, Sir H. E.

  Stanhope, hon. E.

  Miles, Sir P. J. W.

  Stanley, rt. hn. Col. F.

  Mills, Sir C. H.

  Stewart, M. J.

  Monckton, F.

  Storer, G.

  Moore, A.

  Stuart, H. V.

  Morgan, hon. F.

  Sullivan, A. M.

  Moss, B.

  Sykes, C.

  Mowbray, rt. hn. Sir J.B,

  Talbot, J. G.

  Mulholland, J.

  Taylor, rt. hn. Col. T.E.

  Murray, C. J.

  Thomson, H.

  Musgrave, Sir R. C.

  Thornhill, T.

  Newdegate, C. N.

  Thynne, Lord H. F.

  Newport, Viscount

  Tollemache, hon. W. F.

  Nicholson, W. N.

  Tottenham, A. L.

  Noel, rt. hon. G. J.

  Tyler, Sir H. W.

  North, Colonel J. S.

  Wallace, Sir B.

  Northcote, H. S.

  Walpole, rt. hon. S.

  Northcote, rt. hon. Sir S. H.

  Walrond, Col. W. H.

  Warburton, P. E.

  O'Connor, A.

  Warton, C. N.

  O' Donnell, F. H.

  Watkin, Sir E. W.

  O'Donoghue, The

  Watney, J.

  Onslow, D.

  Welby-Gregory, Sir W.

  Palliser, Sir W.

  Whitley, E.

  Patrick, B. W. C.

  Wilmot, Sir H.

  Peek, Sir H.

  Wilmot, Sir J. E.

  Pell, A.

  Wolff, Sir H. D.

  Pemberton, E. L.

  Wortley, C. B. Stuart-

  Percy, Earl

  Wroughton, P.

  Phipps, C. N. P.

  Wynn, Sir W. W.

  Plunket, hon. D. R.

  Yorke, J. R.

  Powell, W.

  TELLERS.

  Power, B.

  Crichton, Viscount

  Price, Captain G. E.

  Winn, R.

  Main Question proposed,
  "That every person returned as a Member of this House, who may claim to he a person for the time being by Law permitted to make a solemn Affirmation or Declaration instead of taking an Oath, shall henceforth (notwithstanding so much of the Resolution adopted by this House on the 22nd day of June last as relates to Affirmation) be permitted, without question, to make and subscribe a solemn Affirmation in the form prescribed by 'The Parliamentary Oaths Act, 1866,' as altered by 'The Promissory Oaths Act, 1868,' subject to any liability by statute."—(Mr. Gladstone.)
  MR. A. M. SULLIVANsaid, he rose to move in the only form which he could move it, in accordance with the Rules of the House, the Amendment which stood in his name, and which had for its object that the rule should be prospective and not retrospective.
  Amendment proposed,
  To add the words "Provided always, That this Resolution shall apply to persons hereafter returned as Members of this House."—(Mr. A. M. Sullivan.)
  Question put, "That those words be there added."
  The House divided:—Ayes 236; Noes 274: Majority 38.—(Div. List, No. 35.)
  Main Question put.
  Resolved, That every person returned as a Member of this House, who may claim to be a person for the time being by Law permitted to make a solemn Affirmation or Declaration instead of taking an Oath, shall henceforth (notwithstanding so much of the Resolution adopted by this House on the 22nd day of June last as relates to Affirmation) be permitted, without question, to make and subscribe a solemn Affirmation in the form prescribed by "The Parliamentary Oaths Act, 1866," as altered by "The Promissory Oaths Act, 1868," subject to any liability by statute.
  MR. GLADSTONEmoved that the Resolution become a Standing Order of the House.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Resolution be a Standing Order of the House."—(Mr. Gladstone.)
  LORD HENRY SCOTTsaid, that he would not put the House to the trouble of dividing upon his Amendment, which was to the effect that instead of a Standing Order there should be legislation on the subject.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Resolved, That this Resolution be a Standing Order of the House.

ORDER OF THE DAY.
  RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) BILL. [BILL 244.]
  (Mr. Parnell, Mr. O'Kelly.)
  RELIEF OF DISTRESS (IRELAND) BILL. [BILL 244.]

    SECOND READING. [ADJOURNED DEBATE.]
    Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Question [24th June], "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    Question again proposed.
    Debate resumed.
    MR. PARNELLsaid, that he should ask the House to allow him to occupy it a few minutes, while he stated the course which hon. Members from Ireland wished to take with regard to the Bill. It would be in the recollection of the House that the debate was adjourned when the matter was under consideration on a previous occasion, in order that the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland might consult his Colleagues as to the course he should take. The result of that consultation was that the right hon. Gentleman gave Notice of a certain new clause to the Government Belief of Distress Bill, with the view of meeting the objections of the Irish Members. Irish Members thought that it was of the utmost importance that some grant should be given—if they pleased—to the Poor Law Boards in Ireland, for the purpose of enabling them to meet quickly any pressing emergency which might arise. In their opinion, the advance of money at 1 per cent to the Poor Law Boards would not be sufficient to enable those bodies to adopt a quick and speedy action for the relief of distress. In other words, they considered that the power of granting out-door relief given by the Act of last Session would not be of use unless some means were adopted to enable Boards to take speedy action. They thought that if a grant of £200,000 were given out of the Church Surplus to the Poor Law Boards—that was, to the Poor Law machinery of the Government—there would be a desire on the part of those Boards to put into operation the Act of last Session, and they would at once commence to distribute out-door relief, and would co-operate with the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary in putting the machinery of the Act into operation. What was the position of these Unions? Many of them were practically bankrupt. They had exhibited the greatest repugnance to borrowing money from the Government, and they would continue to exhibit that repugnance so long as no further means were provided for them.
    MR. SPEAKERsaid, that the hon. Member had spoken on the second reading of the Bill, and was now proceeding to enter into the course that had been taken since the last debate.
    MR. PARNELLsaid, that he did not wish to trouble the House at any length;

    1349
    but was only exercising his right to reply to the observations which had been made on the second reading. He would merely say, in conclusion, that it was of the utmost importance that the machinery for the distribution of out-door relief should be set to work at once; therefore, they advocated the grant, in order to insure the speedy action of the Poor Law Guardians.
    MR. SPEAKERasked, what course the hon. Member proposed to take with regard to the Bill?
    MR. PARNELLsaid, he proposed to proceed with the Motion for the second reading, unless some proposition were made by the Government.
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he was afraid he should be under the necessity of moving that the Bill be read a second time that day three months. What the Government proposed to do was to grant favourable terms to the Guardians in the distressed districts for obtaining money. He believed that that course would meet the necessities of the case.
    MR. CALLANsaid, that he rose to Order. He wished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland had not already spoken upon the second reading of the Bill?
    MR. DODDSsaid, that if that were so he begged to move that the Bill be read a second time that day three months.
    Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."—(Mr. Dodds.)
    Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that he was obliged to the hon. Member (Mr. Callan) for pointing out that he was out of Order, though he was now, however, at liberty to speak on the Amendment of the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. Dodds). He might say that he was convinced that the Inspectors of the Local Government Board took care that out-door relief was given in cases where it was needful, and particularly where the prevalence of fever made it necessary. In other Unions they found that the Guardians were responding to the necessity for giving out-door relief in a way that was very gratifying. He believed that they would be stimulated in their efforts by the Government offering them loans upon easier terms than heretofore. He must express the hope
    1350
    that they should not be asked to continue the discussion on the Bill that evening. The hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. Parnell) had asked the Government to assent to the proposal to give public money to private Committees for the purpose of distribution in the distressed districts. He (Mr. W. E. Forster) thought that at that period, when only a month or three weeks intervened before the harvest, there was no necessity for taking such a course. The present means were amply sufficient; but if the harvest proved a bad one, then it would be necessary for the Government to take steps of the nature suggested.
    MR. GRAYsaid, that the right hon. Gentleman had stated that it would be impossible for the Government to assent to a proposal to intrust public money to private Committees of the character stated. [Mr. W. E. FORSTER said, that the hon. Member was mistaken.] The only reason given by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland for not assenting to the proposal of the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) was that he preferred the Poor Law machinery, which he considered more desirable. There could be no question as to giving money in the manner proposed by the hon. Member for the City of Cork, for the late Government had given a large sum of money to be dealt with in the manner proposed by the Bill. The Government of Canada granted a large sum of money towards the relief of distress in Ireland, and intrusted it to the late Colonial Secretary (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach), who had been the Chief Secretary for Ireland. After full consideration it was decided by the right hon. Gentleman that the best means of distributing the money, in accordance with the intentions of the donors, was to intrust it to Committees, consisting of the three great charitable organizations of Dublin. He (Mr. Gray) was under the impression that it had been stated in public that in 1847 a similar proposal was made by Government that £200,000 should be given as a grant, in aid of the private Committees relieving the distress, and that the money was to be spent by them. He was sorry that the Government had decided against the proposal of his hon. Friend, for it was throwing a serious reflection against the various charitable

    1351
    societies which had hitherto distributed relief in Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman must be convinced that every effort made by the Government to relieve distress, by means of the Poor Law organization alone, would fail. In the first place, it would fail because many of the small farmers would rather starve than apply to the Poor Law Boards at all. They would have to make up their minds to permitting relief to be distributed by private Committees, and there was no good in discussing the question in a political or an economical point of view, so long as it was clear that the small farmers would rather suffer the greatest extremities than receive relief at the hands of the Government officials. Moreover, there was a difficulty on account of the disinclination of the Poor Law Boards to avail themselves of the powers given to them. There was a very violent prejudice on the part of many of the Poor Law Guardians in any shape. That did not apply so much in cases where the poor rate was very high; but instances were within his knowledge where the poor rate was as low as 10 d. in the pound, and yet where the Guardians entirely refused to grant out-door relief. If that state of things were allowed to continue, all the mischief would be done before it was possible to remedy it. The Mansion House Fund had gone down to about £8,000, and in another fortnight it would be exhausted. Then what could the Poor Law system do? He was convinced the Government were not making sufficient provision. They had already been obliged to supersede two or three Poor Law Boards by paid Commissioners; but where were the men to be got to administer the others? He thought the proposal was the most immediate that could be adopted, and certainly speed was of the essence of this question. It was certain that unless the Government adopted some speedy method outside the Poor Law system there would be starvation within a week or two. They knew that if the Chief Secretary for Ireland could, by a stroke of the pen, relieve the distress in Ireland, he would do so; but he could not attend to all the details throughout the country in which he (Mr. Gray) believed the whole of the machinery existing at present was inadequate. He deeply regretted that the proposal had been thrown aside.
    1352
    He did not say that it might not be capable of improvement; but, unless immediate grants were given through some other organization which could act without too much red tape, they would not be able effectually to cope with the distress. He asked attention to the suggestion which had been made, which was, that in view of the distress, and in view of the large burdens which must of necessity be cast upon the ratepayers, that the Government would consider the propriety of postponing for the next 12 months the payment under the Seeds Act. This would do more to relieve the distress than any other proposal except the free grant of public money, because it would relieve the Boards of Guardians of burdens which had been intolerable. This money was not repayable to the Board of Public Works before August, 1881; but the tenant to whom the money was advanced must pay it back immediately after the harvest. It had been said that if there was a good harvest there was no debt which could be more legitimately demanded than that for the seed which had produced that harvest. That was perfectly true; and although he had put a Notice on the Paper for the remission of the debt, finding that public opinion in Ireland would not support him in that proposal, he intended to remove it from the Paper. There was among the small farmers in Ireland a strong conviction that it would be impossible to pay this debt, together with the enormous liabilities which had accumulated upon them, during the year. It had been said that the sum advanced was so small it could easily be paid if the harvest were good. But if it were good, there would be some serious debts of other kinds for the farmers to meet. They were already overwhelmed with debts. The first condition of receiving this seed must have been that they were in such a distressed state that they could not, either by credit or by means of other resources, obtain money to stock their land. They were, therefore, in a bankrupt condition when the seed was received; since which they had been living on charity, or upon such credit as they could obtain. They not only owed their rent, in most eases, but were steeped in debt to the local shopkeepers, and there were three or four creditors watching every small farmer to pounce

    1353
    upon him, if the harvest was a successful one. Therefore, it would be impossible to meet the dmands that would be made upon them after the harvest; and no greater relief could be given than if they failed, for fail they must, to meet their obligations, than by postponing the seed debt for 12 months. If it was thought fit, let interest be exacted, even at 3½ per cent. But he was convinced, further, that if the debt were postponed it would be a great benefit to the Treasury in a financial sense, because the debt would be able to be gathered with much greater facility. He trusted the Government would not discard his proposal without taking it into full consideration. He spoke with some authority upon this subject, because he had acted as Chairman of a large Company which had to consider the best mode of relieving the distressed small farmers. In his opinion, nothing better could be done, with the exception of a free grant of public money, to relieve the distress. He was also convinced that some such suggestion as that of the hon. Member for Cork City should be considered—that was to say, an immediate grant to be administered by some other method than by the Poor Law system, in order to prevent the distress which must come within the next four or five weeks, unless something were done.
    MR. P. MARTINsaid, though objections might be made to the manner in which it was proposed to distribute the grant to be made under the provisions of the Bill, it occurred to him the Government ought to concede the main principle of the measure. It was admitted that severe distress existed, and was likely to increase, in Ireland, and that the charitable associations which had heretofore relieved destitution and warded off the approaches of famine were now without funds. Under those circumstances, he thought it was not unreasonable that they should obtain a grant in aid of that distress from funds belonging of right to the Irish people. It had rightly been pointed out by the hon. Member for Carlow that the example of the Canadian Parliament was one which it was fitting that this country should follow. It did not redound to the credit of England that alleviation for the distress in Ireland should have been obtained from the charity of America and funds granted by a Colonial
    1354
    Parliament, and that now the Government should refuse not merely to give any aid as proposed, but that the Chief Secretary for Ireland should listen in silence to the suggestions which had been made by his hon. Friend the Member for Carlow County (Mr. Gray). He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would not force the Irish Members to divide upon the Bill. He thought it would be viewed as a most unfortunate thing in Ireland if they were driven to take a division upon a Bill of that character. Let him (Mr. Martin) remind the Government that in introducing a Bill of the exceptional character of that which gave the distressed tenant compensation in case he was evicted for non-payment of rent out of the pocket of the Irish landlord, they admitted the prevailing distress was of a character not to be encountered or overcome by ordinary rules. If it was right to transfer thus the burdens from one class to another class, under the state of circumstances which existed in Ireland, it was surely reasonable that the State should contribute towards this exceptional distress occasioned by the visitation of Providence. The postponement of the payment of the instalments, under the Seeds Supply Act, would not be a very serious tax on Imperial resources, and would be of very great assistance in many localities. Even in many of those Unions not scheduled under the Act for the Relief of Distress, the poor rates had been not less than 4s. in the pound during the past year. The distress throughout Ireland was, unfortunately, not confined to Galway, Mayo, or Donegal.
    MR. CALLANsaid, he believed it would be a substantial benefit to the tenants and small farmers in Ireland if the payment for the seeds were deferred for 12 months, and was glad that the discussion which had taken place upon the Bill had afforded the hon. Member for Carlow (Mr. Gray) the opportunity of making such a good suggestion. There had been four relief funds in Dublin; but his own county, where there had been a great amount of distress, had not received a penny from any one of those funds. It would be setting an evil precedent to hand over the sum of £200,000 to such bodies, notwithstanding they had every confidence in the administration of the charitable funds by the Mansion House Committee. They

    1355
    had in Ireland a Poor Law system which was perfect as regards its organization, and could, no doubt, administer the grant; but when it was proposed to hand over the sum of £200,000 to public bodies of another kind, he must remind the House that there was the Land League in Dublin, dishonestly and fraudulently allocating money which was intended for the relief of Irish distress to political purposes at the last General Election. This body had also refused to allow an audit of its accounts; and it was to them that some hon. Members had the effrontery to place a Bill on the Table of the House, asking that the distribution of £200,000 should be in part intrusted. He charged them with having dishonestly and fraudulently allocated sums of money raised and intended for the relief of the poor of Ireland to political purposes. He had heard in the evidence on a Petition trial in Ireland that money had been promised by the Land League to the farmers provided they voted in a certain way.
    MR. SPEAKER: I must say I fail to see any connection between the observations of the hon. Member and the subject of the Bill before the House.
    MR. CALLANsaid, he was speaking of one of those societies whom he charged with being unworthy to receive any grant, as having fraudulently allocated to political purposes sums received from America for the relief of Irish distress. He was correct in saying that in Roscommon and the Louth County members of the Land League promised free grants of seed, provided that certain political objects were accomplished at the Election. He undertook to prove the assertions he had made, and for that reason called upon the Government to scout from that House the proposal to intrust the distribution of £200,000 to bodies against whom such charges were made, and who had refused to allow an audit of their accounts. He believed the speech of the Chief Secretary for Ireland would give great satisfaction to the ratepayers of Ireland, and trusted that the right hon. Gentleman would make the payment for the seeds deferred.
    MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he hoped the hon. Member would agree to release the House after 11 hours continuous sitting. The discussion which had taken place was really the same as would come on next Saturday, and the particular
    1356
    point involved could be much better considered then than at present. In default of any other proposal he would move the adjournment of the debate.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Gladstone.)
    MR. PARNELLsaid, they were in this position. They thought it absolutely necessary that there should be some grant in aid of the distress in Ireland, and they were perfectly willing to allow the Government to choose the machinery to administer the fund. They had expressed their preference for bodies which had already successfully administered money in Ireland up to the present time; but if the Government desired to administer the money through the Poor Law machinery they were willing to agree to that arrangement. But the difficulty in regard to the Bill of the Chief Secretary for Ireland was that it was complicated with so many collateral questions, that it was utterly impossible to say when the particular part of the Bill connected with the present subject would be reached. They knew that the time of the Government was exceedingly limited; but they knew also that there was a great emergency in Ireland which required immediate action. The Government had presented a Bill of cumbrous size for the purpose of repairing the errors of their Predecessors. If he (Mr. Parnell) agreed to the adjournment of the debate he did not know when his Bill could come on; while the Notice on the Paper that it be read a second time that day three months would remain. If the Government would allow him to put his Bill down for Saturday, the proposal might be made the subject of consideration in the meantime, and perhaps some satisfactory arrangement might be arrived at. He asked the Government to consider their position. A grave responsibility had been cast upon them by their constituents to do all they could for them. He thought the right hon. Gentleman was making a grave miscalculation in relying on the Poor Law machinery, and that he might find himself in the midst of a state of affairs which he had not contemplated.
    MR. O'DONNELLsaid, some weeks ago he had expressed his strong conviction that there ought to be use made by Government of the existing organiza-

    1357
    tions for relief in Ireland, and had pointed out that the reports of individuals had covered that country with a network of relief Committees, and that it was not wise of the Government to shut their eyes to that organization. All that he had heard since upon the matter had only confirmed him in his opinion that what might be called the official machinery for the relief of distress in Ireland was inadequate for the purpose. He could not see any moral or absolute reason why the grants of public money should not be distributed by an organization individually initiated and spontaneously offered. He did not believe that the millions of money raised for the relief of distress in India could have reached their destination so well, but for the manner in which the officials of the Government cordially co-operated with individual effort. He had had representations made to him on the subject of the difficulty of getting Boards of Guardians to grant relief; and he trusted the Government would not allow it to be thought that they had made up their minds upon the subject. In a few weeks it would be too late to supplement the official machinery and establish a supplementary system of relief out of loans and out of the rates and taxes. There must be a free grant, and there ought to be use made of the organization of individual effort which had already worked so well, and which, under Government supervision, would, no doubt, work better.
    MAJOR NOLANsaid, under the circumstances, he thought it better to be weary than that the people of Ireland should starve. The people in his part of the country had complained that the time of the House had been wasted in debates upon the Bradlaugh question, while there had been little or no attention paid to the question of distress in Ireland. There was no necessity to quarrel about the machinery for the administration of the fund, for the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. Parnell) had said he was quite willing the Government should choose its own machinery. He had a letter from a magistrate and grand juror in the county of Galway, who said there was great distress in his neighbourhood, and there were also 10 families affected by fever. That magistrate, who would have to pay a good deal to the rates, pointed out that
    1358
    the Poor Law Guardians had not done their duty. Some machinery ought, therefore, to be adopted by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland of another kind. He thought it would be well to take a division, if there were no reasonable probability of bringing the Bill forward on Saturday. He hoped, however, that the Prime Minister would agree to that.
    MR. DALYsaid, that he did not wish' to detain the House at that hour of the morning; but he thought it necessary to call attention to two or three facts in connection with the manner in which out-door relief was distributed by private Committees. He doubted very much whether any machinery could be found which would effect the purpose in view better than the charitable organizations now existing in the distressed districts of Ireland. In the first place, they had had such experience with regard to the distressed districts that they could not be imposed upon. Persons concerned in the administration of the charitable funds were usually clergymen, resident doctors in the district, and other persons intimately acquainted with the wants of the locality; and the information they possessed as to those actually needing relief was much greater than could be acquired by other persons. These gentlemen, moreover, had been engaged in the work of distribution for a long period. Under these circumstances, he could not but consider that in the distribution of any relief they could not do better than intrust it to the hands of the same persons who had hitherto administered the charitable funds in Ireland.
    MR. COURTNEYsaid, he understood the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. Parnell) to state that if this debate were adjourned it could not be taken at any hour on another evening now that the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. Dodds) had moved to reject the Bill. At the same time, it seemed to him that the inconvenience of having a discussion then was so very great, that he would suggest that the hon. Member for Stockton should withdraw his Amendment that the Bill should be read a second time that day three months, in order that the Bill might be brought on at any period of the evening on another occasion. He would, therefore, ask the hon. Member for Stockton to withdraw his Amendment.
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he was very sorry not to be able to meet the wishes of hon. Members from Ireland; but he was quite sure it was perfectly possible for the Government to meet distress through the Poor Law machinery without the grant. At the present time, the Poor Law Guardians were giving out-door relief in some cases, and where they did not respond to the appeal to give relief loans were offered to them. He did not see what difference it would make, whether they were giving a grant, or whether they offered loans for two years. He could not advise to assent to the plan proposed, for it would be an acknowledgment of the utter failure of the Poor Law to meet an emergency. If this course which had been suggested were adopted it would complete the abolition of the Poor Law. If the hon. Member desired to take the sense of the House upon his proposal he had better take it that evening, and the Motion for adjournment had better be withdrawn.
    MR. ARTHUR O'CONNORsaid, that he should like to know from the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether or not it was proved that the Poor Law in Ireland had broken down. It was within his knowledge that many families who were in the most distressed condition had the greatest possible repugnance to make known their distress to the Government officials. But for the action of the relief Committees, numberless families throughout Ireland would have been dead by the present time. Again, in the county which he had the honour to represent, which was a scheduled county, there were cases of persons suffering the extremity of famine and not applying for relief. Some unfortunate persons who had received potatoes under the Relief Act had been compelled to dig up again the seed which had been planted, for the purpose of sustaining life. No doubt, it was against the law; but Guardians could not find it in their hearts to prosecute those unfortunate persons. He could understand the objection of the Government to the distribution of public funds through private Committees, and he would suggest that some kind of compromise on the subject be adopted. Why should the Government not allow half the money to be distributed by the Poor Law Guardians and half the money through the
    1360
    relief Committees? In that way they would insure the £200,000 which the hon. Member for the City of Cork desired should be granted being properly expended.
    MR. METGEsaid, that if they could obtain a pledge from the Government to adopt the moderate proposal of the hon. Member for the City of Cork they would be happy to take the course suggested by the Government. He believed that the proposal which the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland told them he was going to bring forward was simply one for the relief of the landlords of Ireland. He did not believe that it would meet the distress amongst the poor. When the Government came forward with a Relief Bill for Ireland of the nature of that introduced by the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary, in his (Mr. Metge's) opinion, it was the duty of Irishmen to sit there till that time to-morrow, if necessary, in order to obtain a proper measure. Were they to consent to the proposal of the Government they would be altogether renouncing their proper responsibility. It was the clear duty of hon. Gentlemen from Ireland to insure proper legislation for her interests, no matter what inconvenience to themselves.
    MR. LITTONsaid, he denied that it was the right of any hon. Member on the opposite Benches to sit there from that time until the same hour the next day for the purpose of repeating the same arguments over and over again. The proposition of the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. Parnell) had been met by the Amendment of the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. Dodds) that the Bill be read a third time that day three months. It was only by that means that this discussion could be brought to an end. Hon. Member after hon. Member had risen in his place on the opposite side and had repeated the same arguments. He denied that it was the right of any hon. Member to treat the House in that way. The Bill of the hon. Member for Cork City asked that £200,000 might be handed over to private societies to distribute to the poor of Ireland; and if that principle were adopted, the Govern-might as well hand over to those societies the government of Ireland altogether. It would be impossible for any Government to carry on the Public

    1361
    Business of Ireland, if they were so to abdicate their functions, and to hand them over to any private individual or private society. It would be a direct abdication of their functions to hand over a large sum of money like this to private distribution. He had personally every confidence in some of the societies which had been concerned in the relief of the distressed. He had no doubt that the Committee presided over by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Carlow (Mr. Gray) had done a deal of good; but there were other Committees in which he had not a like confidence. He believed there was in the minds of a great many hon. Members of that House a considerable want of confidence in some of those Committees; but it was not a question whether they were or were not worthy of confidence. A question of principle was involved, and the only way to bring the matter to a conclusion was to persevere in the Amendment that the Bill be read a third time that day three months.
    MR. O'SHAUGHNESSYsaid, it was hardly fair to the hon. Member for the City of Cork (Mr. Parnell) to argue that he had asked for this money to be handed over to voluntary societies. He had expressed his perfect willingness to permit this money to be distributed by means of the Poor Law machinery. After that concession, it became illogical to represent as his argument that this money should be handed over to voluntary societies. What they asked was that public money should be given to the Local Government Board for distribution in such Unions as required a grant instead of a loan. With respect to that proposition, there was good reason for considering it was absolutely necessary. On all sides they had an expression of opinion from Irish Members, including that of the Conservative Member for Tyrone (Mr. Macartney), that something of the nature of a grant was necessary. The only hon. Members who had not concurred in that opinion were the Liberal Member for Tyrone (Mr. Litton), and the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Callan). [Mr. CALLAN said, that he made no objection to the grant.] He (Mr. O'Shaughnessy) was glad to hear that there was an absolute consensus of opinion amongst the Irish Members on this point, with the exception of the Liberal Member
    1362
    for Tyrone. Great objections were made to public money being handed to voluntary societies; but the hon. Member for Cork City was willing to withdraw that part of his proposal, and to consent to its being handed, over to the Local Government Board. The Local Government Board required something more than they had hitherto had. It was necessary to put in their hands a certain sum of money, in order that they might encourage Poor Law Guardians to give out-door relief. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. E. Forster) should take power for the Local Government Board to have a certain sum of money for distribution among such Unions as might be selected. Let the principle of the grant be grafted on the Relief Bill of the Government, and a great deal would then have been done to meet the objections of the hon. Member for the City of Cork. They did not want to disturb the ordinary Poor Law machinery of the country, and were quite willing to allow the grant to be distributed by the Local Government Board. They knew the way in which Boards of Guardians in Ireland acted. It was well known in Ireland that the prospect of having to repay the principal of the large sums of money that might be lent to them to distribute out-of-doors had hitherto prevented the Boards of Guardians from giving outdoor relief to any extent. To obviate that objection on the part of the Guardians the present Bill had been introduced. The great principle for which they contended was that a grant should be made to the Guardians, and they would be quite satisfied if that were engrafted upon the Government measure.
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that perhaps the House would allow him to state that no limit would be imposed upon the expenditure of the Local Government Board in the event of any emergency short of £1,500,000. The suggestion that the money should be given to the relief Committees now seemed to have been dropped; and the sole question, therefore, was between the loan and the grant. Surely, that might be perfectly well discussed upon the Government Bill on Saturday, and it was unnecessary to occupy the House longer on the present occasion. He must not, however, be understood as in any way assenting to the proposal made, for he

    1363
    would rather stop there till any time than have a compromise of that kind extorted from him.
    MR. O'CONNOR POWERsaid, that he fully agreed with the observations that had been made, that they ought to sit there till that time to-morrow, if by doing so they should contribute to the relief of their distressed countrymen in Ireland. It did not seem to him, however, that there was anything in the proposals of the Government hostile to the principle for which they were contending. Therefore, he should ask his hon. Friend the Member for the City of Cork to allow the matter to come to a harmonious conclusion. Neither his great respect for the present Government, nor their great majority, nor the distinguished character of the Minister who led it, would induce him to deviate one inch from what he considered to be the proper course to be taken. But he could not regard the Government as hostile to their views. It seemed to him that they were pursuing the same object as themselves, and that it was only a question of machinery. He thought the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Chief Secretary for Ireland, that the question should be discussed on Saturday, was a reasonable one.
    MR. PARNELLsaid, he agreed with his hon. Friend the Member for Mayo (Mr. O'Connor Power) that the debate might be now adjourned. But it should be remembered that he had proposed that plan at the beginning, although he feared he had been misunderstood by the Chief Secretary for Ireland. He had proposed that the right hon. Gentleman should adopt the principle of a grant reserving to himself the right of administration by the Poor Law Board, and it was only at that moment that the Chief Secretary for Ireland had pointed out how it could be done.
    MR. BIGGARsaid, without any wish to take up the time of the House, or put any obstacle in the way of the Government, he desired to state that he understood the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. E. Forstor) not to object to the adjournment of the debate until Saturday.
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he had stated that the questions raised that evening could be raised upon the Bill on Saturday next. He was surprised that the hon. Member (Mr. Biggar) had not understood that.
    MR. BIGGARsaid, he must have misunderstood the right hon. Gentleman, who, he confessed, was not very lucid in his statement. He did not see why, although the Government had arranged not to put down any other Business on the Paper for Saturday, they should be precluded from putting down this Bill for the same day. Of course, if the whole Sitting were occupied with the Government Bill, there would be no opportunity of discussing the Irish Bill. It was simply a matter of convenience for all parties, and he raised the question as indicating a way out of the difficulty. He desired to make reference to the statement of the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Callan) with regard to the Irish Land League. The hon. Gentleman had brought some very dark charges against that body, and had gone into detail, alleging, at the same time, that in one of the national Committees some irresponsible parties had led persons to believe that they would get grants of potatoes if they voted in a particular way.
    MR. SPEAKER: The observations of the hon. Member have clearly nothing to do with the subject before the House.
    MR. BIGGARsaid, there was not the slightest foundation for the statement of the hon. Member for Louth. The hon. Member for Tyrone (Mr. Litton) had said that the same arguments had, over and over again, been advanced with regard to this Bill, and upon that point he would remark that the hon. Member had succeeded in repeating himself several times in the course of the debate.
    Question put, and agreed to.
    MR. PARNELLsaid, he wished to see the block Motion taken off the Paper for Saturday, and would move that the Bill be read a second time on that day.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be adjourned till Saturday."—(Mr. Parnell.)
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he would put it to the hon. Member for Cork City (Mr. Parnell) that there had not been a question raised that night that could not be raised upon the debate on the Bill next Saturday. The hon. Member seemed to admit that himself, and he (Mr. Forster) wondered that he had not seen it from the beginning. The

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    Government were under an engagement not to take any Business on Saturday, except the Government Bill; therefore, he could not understand why there should be an attempt made to bring on the present Bill on that day. He repeated there was no question which had been raised that evening which could not be brought up next Saturday on the Government Bill.
    MR. A. M. SULLIVANsaid, he would appeal to his hon. Friend (Mr. Parnell) to take into consideration the point raised. He was afraid there was no chance of the Government Bill getting through on Saturday. They were, therefore, merely wasting time on a matter of form, because the Bill could not be reached on Saturday. If he thought otherwise, he should support his hon. Friend; but his advice was to concentrate their minds upon the Government measure, and endeavour to convert the proposed loan into a grant.
    MR. BIGGARsaid, he did not wish, in the smallest degree, to criticize, at that moment, the merits of the Government Bill; but merely wanted to point out that the portion of the Government Bill in competition, so to speak, with that of the hon. Member (Mr. Parnell), was at a stage of the Bill which was not likely to be reached on Saturday. He suggested, as a way out of the difficulty, that the hon. Member for Stockton (Mr. Dodds) should withdraw his Amendment against the second reading of the Bill.
    MR. SPEAKER: The observations of the hon. Member (Mr. Biggar) are quite beside the Question before the House, which is simply as to the day when the second reading of this Bill can be taken.
    MR. BIGGARsaid it was so difficult to get on with the Bill of a private Member, when it was stopped by a Government Motion, that it would be well if they had an opportunity of discussing the measure on Friday night.
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes 22; Noes 62: Majority 40.—(Div. List, No. 36.)
    Debate adjourned till Monday next.
    House adjourned at Four o'clock in the morning.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—first Reading—County Bridges*(113); Local Government (Ireland) Provisional Orders (Artizans and Labourers Dwellings (Dublin) and Waterworks (Armagh)*(114).
Third Reading—Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order (No. 2)*(93); Local Government Provisional Orders (Abingdon, &c.)*(95); Metropolitan Commons Supplemental*(96), and passed.

EARLDOM OF MAR.—RESOLUTION.
THE EARL OF GALLOWAYrose to move—
"That, in accordance with the Resolution agreed to by this House on the 14th June last, 'That it is incumbent upon this House to rescind their Order of 26th February 1875, which ran as follows, viz: That at the future meetings of the Peers of Scotland assembled under any Royal Proclamation for the election of a Peer or Peers to represent the Peerage of Scotland in Parliament, the Lord Clerk Register, or the Clerks of Session officiating thereat in his name, do call the title of Earl of Mar according to its place on the Roll of Peers of Scotland called at such election, and do receive and count the vote of the Earl of Mar claiming to vote in right of the said earldom, and do permit him to take part in the proceedings of such election,"' this House resolve that the said Order be rescinded, and that intimation to that effect be made to the Lord Clerk Register of Scotland."
The noble Earl said, he was in a position in which he was, perhaps, entitled to claim their Lordships' sympathy, and he should ask their indulgence while he attempted to put before them the position in which the House was placed on the subject of his Resolution. Just a month ago, on the 1st of June, he gave Notice in that House that he intended to move two Resolutions with regard to the Mar Peerage. He did not wish to disguise the fact that he was very anxious to call the attention of the public to this question; and for the purpose of calling public attention to it he not only put a Notice upon the Paper, but in addition—having made the public declaration between 5 and a quarter past 5 o'clock in the usual manner—took measures to insure the Notice getting into the hands of the reporters. That Notice he had given for the 14th of the month, so that there would be
1216
ample opportunity for everybody to know that the question was coming on; and two days previous to bringing on the Resolution he took means to let every Member of their Lordships' House know that the subject was to be discussed—a means with which all their Lordships were familiar. Of course, he had no notion whatever as to the opinions of any noble Lord on the subject. He would not weary the House by reciting what the Resolutions were; but the particular one which was the subject of his Notice this evening was to the effect that in accordance with the Report of the Select Committee specially appointed to inquire into the matter three years ago—namely, in 1877—it was incumbent on the House to rescind the Order of February 26, 1875, and that an Order to that effect should be sent to the Lord Clerk Register of Scotland. At this time he had put to the Resolution six words, which he afterwards withdrew, and these were, "and the said Order is hereby rescinded." But, upon reading over his Notice, he had said to himself—"Now, it would be rather an affront to their Lordships to add these words; for if their Lordships agreed with me that it is incumbent on them to rescind the Order, they will, as a matter of course, carry that Resolution into effect;" and he need not add that it would have been perfectly easy for him, after the Resolution was carried, to have moved simply that the words he had left out be added. If he had done that he was sure the Motion for the addition would have been carried without a dissentient vote. However, a week passed, and a noble Friend of his opposite (the Marquess of Huntly), who had always taken a very deep interest in the question, in his place asked the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack what Order he had sent to the Lord Clerk Register in consequence of the Resolution agreed to by the House? He would remind their Lordships that on the 14th ultimo the debate lasted for over two hours. It was a very full debate; and upon going to a division the numbers were—Contents, 49; Not-Contents, 41—which was a majority of 8; but had it not been for the accident of one Peer going into the wrong Lobby the voting would have been 50 to 40, or a very substantial majority, and one which on most questions would be considered very decisive. A week after

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this vote was taken a noble Friend of his opposite asked the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack what Order he had sent to the Lord Clerk Register, or—
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the question was not what Order he had sent to the Lord Clerk Register, for he had no more authority to send an Order from the House than had the noble Earl himself.
THE EARL OF GALLOWAYbegged the noble and learned Lord's pardon, but wished to be allowed to finish the sentence. If he might be allowed to quote the noble and learned Lord's reply, it would be found that there was no reason to interrupt him. The noble and learned Lord had replied that the House had given him no authority to rescind any Order; and that the Resolution had only stated that it was incumbent on their Lordships to do a certain thing which they had given him no authority to do. The noble and learned Lord had added some pithy remarks which were not pertinent to his (the Earl of Galloway's) point at the present moment. Upon this he had immediately risen in his place and given Notice that, in consequence of that reply, he should bring forward the present Resolution on the first available day. He had been very much astonished to hear that anything further was necessary, as he believed that the matter was decided once and for all, and that there was nothing further for him to do in the matter. He had found that Thursday, 1st July, was the first available day for bringing the matter on; and, having chosen that day, it had still seemed to him that he had only to move his Resolution as a matter of form, as the House had already decided the matter, and that the Question would be put from the Woolsack almost like the third reading of a Bill, or rather after the third reading, as the Question "That this Bill do pass," which was never challenged. He had thought that there would be as much reason to expect that the rejection of a Bill would be moved on the Motion "That this Bill do pass," as that at this stage his Resolution would be opposed. He had, therefore, been very much astonished the morning after he had given his Notice to find in the Papers the Amendment of the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees. He had taken some
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pains to find out whether the course adopted by the noble Earl was at all customary; and from all he could learn it seemed that it was altogether without precedent. He had consulted many noble Lords, but there was not one who could point out a precedent; therefore, he would leave it to their Lordships to say whether the noble Earl was acting in accordance with the regulations and usages of the House. Was it open to the noble Earl to discuss his Amendment at all? If it was, it seemed to him that they were laying down a most dangerous precedent; and he did not believe that if their Lordships balloted on the question of Order the noble Earl would have 10 supporters. For his own part, he (the Earl of Galloway) was not prepared to transgress the Rules of the House. He had made his speech on a former occasion and had carried his Resolution; and he should certainly not break the Rules of the House by reopening the question. Of course, if they permitted the Amendment to be put, it would be open to him to reply. If any other noble Lord had put down an Amendment to a Resolution, the object of which was simply to render operative a Resolution of the House, he would have been severely castigated, and castigated by none more severely than by the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees (the Earl of Redesdale). He would conclude for the present by moving his Resolution.
Moved to resolve,
"That, in accordance with the Resolution agreed to by this House on the 14th June last 'That it is incumbent upon this House to rescind their Order of 26th February 1875, which ran as follows, viz.: "That at the future meetings of the Peers of Scotland assembled under any-Royal Proclamation for the election of a Peer or Peers to represent the Peerage of Scotland in Parliament, the Lord Clerk Register, or the Clerks of Session officiating thereat in his name, do call the title of Earl of Mar according to its place on the Roll of Peers of Scotland called at such election, and do receive and count the vote of the Earl of Mar claiming to vote in right of the said earldom, and do permit him to take part in the proceedings of such election,"' the said Order be rescinded, and that intimation to that effect be made to the Lord Clerk Register of Scotland."—(The Earl of Galloway)
THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)rose to move, as an Amendment, to leave out all the words after "That," for the purpose of inserting the following words:—

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"Further consideration has led this House to consider that it would be inexpedient to rescind the Order of the 26th February 1875, which was made after the House had resolved and adjudged that Walter Henry Earl of Kellie Viscount Fenton Baron Erskine and Baron Dirleton in the Peerage of Scotland had made out his claim to the earldom of Mar in the Peerage of Scotland created in 1565, as consequential to such resolution and judgment, and that to rescind an Order so made in relation to a right to a Peerage adjudged after long investigation, and which Order has been acted upon at several elections of Scotch Peers, without any further inquiry and unsupported by any new evidence, would be contrary to the practice of this House and establish an objectionable and dangerous precedent."
The noble Earl said, that, after what had fallen from the noble Earl, it was necessary that he should explain why he had given Notice of his Amendment. He believed the question to be one of the deepest importance to the character of that House. They must remember that that House was the highest Court of Judicature in the Kingdom, and they must take the greatest care that nothing was done in regard to judicial questions which affected the character of the House or its power to give judgment on these matters. From the manner in which this question was handled, he thought many noble Lords had been influenced by wrong impressions. For instance, it had been very much the fashion to treat the Committee of Privileges as if it was not the House; whereas, in fact, it was a Committee of the Whole House. The House had always treated questions of Peerage in that way; and so remarkably careful had it always been to guard against miscarriage, that instead of requiring a quorum of only three, as at the ordinary Sittings of the House, it insisted, when in Committee upon Privilege, upon a quorum of seven. These questions of disputed Peerages were referred by the Sovereign to the House of Lords, as the highest Court of Judicature in the Kingdom, in order to obtain the opinion of that high Court; and when the question was decided by the House, notice was sent to the Queen of the decision come to, and that decision was final, and always acted on. He must ask their Lordships to consider what would be the effect if any Peer was, whenever he pleased, to get up and move that a judicial decision of the House be rescinded. The noble Earl now proposed the rescinding of a judicial Order; and the facts stated showed that it was necessary for
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the House to make such Order, as otherwise there would be nothing but confusion in the Scotch Peers' elections. Objection was taken that the name of the Earl of Mar on the Roll of Peers was not placed according to the date at which the House had determined the Peerage was granted. There were two ways in which the question as to the date must be considered by those who took this matter up. Nobody could doubt that the date on the Poll was not the proper place of the Peerage awarded by the House to Lord Kellie; but it was also not the date of the Peerage claimed by Mr. Goodeve Erskine. From what took place before the Commission of Ranking, it was quite evident that the Lord Mar of that day was very anxious to get the old Earldom conferred on him; and, with that object in view, he adduced before that Commission three important documents. One was the Charter of Isabel of 1404; the second was the Act of Parliament of 1585, ratifying the whole right and title made to John, Earl of Mar, of the comitators as heir by progress to Dame Isabel; and the other was an extract of the retours of 20th March, 1588, whereby John, Earl of Mar, was declared her lawful heir. Therefore, the Commission had before them all the particulars of his descent, and all the evidence he could produce of his claim as heir to Isabella; but they refused to give him the date of 1404. On the contrary, the date which they assigned to the Earldom of Mar was 1457, thereby altogether refusing to admit that the Charter of Isabel of 1404 had anything to do with the Earldom then before them. There was no evidence whatever, from anything that had taken place in the Parliament of Scotland, or, since the Union, in the House of Lords, of any person being recognized as possessed of the ancient Earldom, since the death of the last heir male in 1377, which had, therefore, been now extinct for 500 years. During the interval, the Crown created several Earls of Mar; and down to the time when Queen Mary made Lord Erskine Earl of Mar on the eve of her marriage, no member of the family of Erskine was Earl of Mar. These and various other circumstances connected with the case being brought before the Committee of Privileges, the Committee came to the decision that Lord Kellie had made out his claim to the Earldom of

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Mar created by Queen Mary. Those persons who took up the case of the other claimant did not quite accurately state the facts. They seemed to conceive that because he got returned as heir, to his uncle he was entitled to his Peerage; whereas it did not really show he was heir to the Peerage unless he could prove that the Peerage went to heirs general. The Order which the House was now asked to rescind had been in existence for five years, and had been acted on in several Scotch elections. After so long an interval, on account of some personal feeling, noble Lords came before the House, and urged their Lordships to say that it was desirable to rescind that Order. ["No, no!"] Well, he asked, why was not the subject brought forward before? For five years the decision of the House had been unchallenged; and now that it was challenged, what was the object of it? He believed it was to prevent Lord Mar having any place to answer from when the Union Boll was called. If the Motion were carried, and the Earl of Mar and Kellie answered to the Peerage on the Poll, his vote would be objected to. Well, was the Earldom of Mar, then, to have no place on the Union Poll? A Circular had been sent round to their Lordships, calling on them to maintain the "integrity of the Scotch Peerage," and stating that it was being placed in danger. Who, he asked, was endangering the integrity of the Scotch Peerage? and how was it being endangered? In his opinion, it was an entire misconception to use such terms as those. He desired particularly to impress on their Lordships not to do anything which would in any way affect the judicial character of that House. There was no point on which they required to be more careful than on that. In this country the House of Lords was the Supreme Court of Appeal; and their Lordships should be careful not to allow the impression to go abroad that in a matter of a judicial character the House would be guided without consulting those capable of giving advice. The noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) seemed to think that any noble Lord was capable of giving advice on a judicial question. To carry his Motion would be, in effect, to establish a dangerous precedent. The noble Earl asked the House, without hearing further evidence, and without
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conference with anyone capable of giving a judicial opinion, to rescind a judicial Order of the House. This was contrary to the established practice of the House, and would, if it were agreed to, establish a precedent as dangerous as it was new.
Amendment moved,
To leave out all the words after "That" for the purpose of inserting the following words: "further consideration has led this House to consider that it would be inexpedient to rescind the Order of the 26th February 1875, which was made after the House had resolved and adjudged that Walter Henry Earl of Kellie Viscount Fenton Baron Erskine and Baron Dirleton in the Peerage of Scotland had made out his claim to the earldom of Mar in the Peerage of Scotland created in 1565, as consequential to such resolution and judgment, and that to rescind an Order so made in relation to a right to a Peerage adjudged after long investigation, and which Order has been acted upon at several elections of Scotch Peers, without any further inquiry and unsupported by any new evidence, would be contrary to the practice of this House and establish an objectionable and dangerous precedent."—(The Earl of Redesdale.)
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWNobserved, that when noble Lords commenced addressing the House on the Mar Peerage they invariably commenced by referring to one Earl and then drifting on to speak of all the personages mixed up in the vexed question of the Mar Peerage. He ventured to think that the House was not quite in Order. The noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Galloway) did not, when he entered into the question and introduced his Motion, deal with the merits of the case; but had rather confined himself to the question whether the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees (the Earl of Redesdale) was in Order in putting his Amendment on the Paper. When the noble Earl moved his Amendment he went into the merits of the question, and entirely avoided going into the question of Order. The noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) intended to raise a mere formal point of procedure. If the result of the debate on the 14th of June had been the opposite of what it had been, he (the Earl of Camperdown) had no hesitation in saying that the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) would have received a severe and well-deserved castigation from the noble Earl at the Table, if he had re-opened the whole question on a formal and technical point or a point of Order. He did not

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even know if he could discuss the merits of the Amendment at the present stage of the debate. The first question for the House to decide was whether the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees was in Order in bringing forward his Motion?
LORD BLACKBURNsaid, he believed the Motion which the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) had placed on the Paper would do harm rather than good to the integrity of the Scottish Peerage. The question, "Who was entitled to the ancient Earldom of Mar?" was one which could not be decided except by a tribunal competent to take evidence, and decide upon the evidence before it. The question was not who should be the heir, but who should be Earl of Mar. Lord. Kellie petitioned the Crown that he should be Earl of Mar. His Petition was referred to that House; and everyone must have known that the question referred to them was one which could not be determined without evidence. The House, in the ordinary course, referred the Petition to a Committee of Privileges, which was the ordinary and Constitutional mode of dealing with such a Petition. During the seven years that the question was before the Committee, an enormous mass of documentary evidence had been collected. He would not now say what the effect of that evidence would be; but it was at least so considerable in bulk that probably no noble Lord had read it through. Judgment had been given by the legal Peers, and the then Lord Chanceller (Earl Cairns) expressed an opinion upon the point raised with great clearness. He (Lord Blackburn) could not now absolutely affirm that the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) was wrong; but he could not say he was right. All he could at present venture to say was, that no man who had not read the evidence before the Committee of Privileges was competent to pass an opinion on the subject. The method now adopted was not the one by which the point could be satisfactorily decided. In a Court of Justice the practice always was to examine a man's title. Mr. Goodeve Erskine said he was the Earl of Mar. It was open to him to petition the Crown; the Petition would be sent down to the House, and the House would refer it to a Committee of Privileges. Against that the previous decision would be no
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bar. Let him not be misunderstood. When he said it would be no bar, he did not mean to say it would not be an important element. The Petitioner had to make out his case in every instance. In this he would not only have to persuade the Committee that he was right, but to make them say that the former decision was wrong. If this question had to be re-tried, let that be done in a proper manner. Let not their Lordships make a rush without evidence, and merely on the authority of antiquaries and persons who knew no law. Those who wanted the House to rescind the Order of the 26th of February, 1875, said they did not want to interfere with the judgment of the House. That was very much as if, in relation to the judgment of a Court of Law, persons said they did not want to interfere with it; but only wanted to prevent its execution, and to see that the Sheriff did not carry it into effect.
THE MARQUESS OF HUNTLYwished that the noble and learned Lord (Lord Blackburn) had remained a little longer in his place the other evening, and had made himself more acquainted with the facts of the case. What they wanted to do was to put this Peerage upon the Poll. That had not yet been done; consequently, the Order of the House had not been carried out. He reminded the noble Earl at the Table (the Earl of Redesdale) that he quite misunderstood the reason why the question was allowed to slumber for five years after the Report of the Select Committee. The course which the affair took was as follows:—The Earl of Kellie came before the Committee of Privileges, and asked to be placed on the Union Roll as Earl of Mar, created in 1565; but the ancient Earl of Mar did not come as a claimant before this House at all. He merely protested against his Peerage being so put on the Poll. The Committee of Privileges went into the question, but they did not decide anything about the old Peerage; all they did was to allow the noble Earl (the Earl of Kellie) to have a Peerage of Mar of 1565. The House did not decide anything, either negatively or affirmatively, with regard to the ancient Earldom of Mar. At the last election at Holyrood, the Earl of Mar came forward to vote, and some noble Lords protested, and a "scene" followed. The noble Earl

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opposite (the Earl of Galloway) then came down, and moved that the Earldom as it stood should be brought down to the Roll of 1565. The Report of the Select Committee distinctly said that no Order was made with reference to the old Earldom, and distinctly affirmed that the old Earldom was still on the Roll. Let the noble Lord (the Earl of Mar and Kellie) put his Earldom on the Roll, and leave the old Earldom to take care of itself. He objected to the assertion that the Scotch Peers treated this question on personal grounds. The point to be decided was one involving more than personal interests for Scotch Peers—namely, what was the right place on the Union Roll for the Mar Peerage? The matter could not be left in its present position. He hoped their Lordships would not stultify themselves by insisting on the Resolution which had been carried the other day.
THE DUKE OF ARGYLLsaid, he was unable to understand what was the difficulty raised with regard to the point of Order. A few weeks ago the House came to the conclusion that it was incumbent on it to rescind a certain Order; but in order to carry that opinion into effect—as it was not binding—it was necessary that there should be a separate and new Motion to rescind. When the Motion was placed on the Paper, the noble Earl (the Earl of Redesdale) gave Notice of an Amendment. He did not see that the noble Earl could be accused of being out of Order in moving an Amendment to a new Motion brought before the House, consequent on the Resolution of the 14th of June. He did not intend to enter at any length into the merits of the question. Like most other Members of the Scotch Peerage, he thought the question one of great importance, apart from all personal considerations. He did not think that those who took the part of Mr. Goodeve Erskine acted from mere personal motives, for he believed that they desired to see the Scotch Peerage Roll made up properly for the honour of the Scotch Peerage. He could, to a certain extent, sympathize with those noble Lords. When the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees (the Earl of Redesdale) spoke of "personal motives," he did not speak of personal motives in an unworthy sense; but he was bound to say, not having read the evidence before the
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Committee, that he was unable to give in opinion on a legal question which ought to be decided by a legal tribunal. He did not think it would redound to the honour of the Scotch Peerage to snatch a victory by a chance vote. On the contrary, he thought they should abstain from any hasty expression on so important a subject. For himself, he would be glad if Mr. Goodeve Erskine could secure his Scotch Peerage: but the proper course must be taken to that end. One of the subordinate questions raised was where his name should stand on the Roll at Holyrood. The noble Duke opposite (the Duke of Richmond and Gordon) would know that that was a1 question which must be gone into with the fullest evidence and material for coming to a conclusion. For one, he (the Duke of Argyll) knew that his name occupied a position on the Roll which he ought not to do, and the same was the case with the noble Duke (the Duke of Sutherland). Noble Lords knew that those were not solitary instances, and if they were to go into that question it must be done in judicial form. If Mr. Goodeve Erskine wanted to keep his place he must issue a new Commission. This question should not be made a political or personal one; and he believed that on the 14th of June the House was hurried into giving a vote without having before it adequate information on the subject. He felt strongly the plea raised by the noble Earl (the Earl of Redesdale), to be zealous of the honour of the House when dealing with questions of a judicial character.
THE EARL OF MANSFIELDsaid, that the real reason why this question had been brought forward was that justice had not been done. He had looked into the decision of the Committee of Privileges, and he contended that it was contrary to justice in every way; and he could show from documents, legal and historical, that there was no proof that the date 1565 was correct for the Earl of Kellie's title of the Earl of Mar. He wished to ask how the Order of the Committee in the House was originally given out? He had heard that no Resolution of the House was come to, and that there was nothing recorded upon the Journals of the House. Although the House had not come to any decision with regard to the ancient Earldom of Mar, Mr. Goodeve Erskine,

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as the noble Duke who had just sat down called him, but, as he preferred to call him, the Earl of Mar, was placed in the position that he could not present himself at the election of Scotch Peers and insist on having his claim to vote admitted. If noble Lords would only look into the question and consider it, they would see the injustice of what had been done. He knew of no individual, however, who had not, after examination, adopted his view of the matter. In Edinburgh all the lawyers in Parliament House were of one opinion; and when it was said that the House was acting against the legal authorities, he would remind the House that the decision of the Committee was come to against the opinions of the Attorney General for England and the Solicitor General for Scotland. They wished to see the Earl of Mar placed in a position in which he could claim to vote for the Earldom of Mar; and at present he could not do that. In conclusion, he expressed his intention of supporting his noble Friend on his right.
THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsaid, that the passing of the Resolution of the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) would only add to the unseemly wrangles and scenes that had taken place, and would only increase the difficulties of the Lord Clerk Register. He pointed out that the proper course for Mr. Goodeve Erskine to pursue was to tender his vote before the Lord Clerk Register and raise his claim to the Earldom of Mar; then the proper number of Peers should protest against its being accepted; and then the question would be brought before the House of Lords for consideration. What would be the practical result if the Resolution of the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) should be carried? Why, there would be more confusion than at present; and, so far as the Roll of 1705 and the Union Roll were concerned, they had no legal force at all. They were not authoritative documents to show the precedence of Scotch Peers. As a Resolution, if carried, would not put an end to the difficulties, it could have no good purpose whatever. It could not prevent the Earl of Kellie answering as Earl of Mar when the title was called over; therefore, he would again suggest that Mr. Goodeve Erskine should present himself at Holyrood; that a protest should be made to the recep-
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tion of his vote; and that the rights and the wrongs of his case should be brought for decision before the House of Lords, and he would be glad if he could prove his claim to the title.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he might claim to speak impartially on this subject. In the first place, he was not a Scotch Peer, neither was he one of the Lords who took part in the hearing or the judgment of Lord Kellie's case. He was, in fact, disabled from doing so by the circumstance of his having been counsel for Mr. Goodeve Erskine as an opponent to Lord Kellie's claim. He had felt much interest in Mr. Erskine's claim, and wished very heartily for his success; and as far as his opinion when counsel went—which was not for a moment to be put in competition with that of the judicial tribunal—he had not formed an unfavourable opinion of Mr. Erskine's claim. He contended, therefore, that he was now able to offer impartial advice; and occupying the position he did, he felt it his duty to offer that advice, for it appeared to him that their Lordships had inadvertently become entangled in a dangerous position, which, if they did not extricate themselves from it, might be, in a high degree, detrimental to the character of their Lordships in one of their functions as to which it was essential they should be beyond censure or suspicion—he meant their judicial capacity. He could not agree with the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) that the Motion he had now made could have been regarded as a matter of form, even if no opposition had been offered; because he himself ventured, on a former occasion, to which reference had been made, to point out that it would be impossible for the House simply to rescind the Resolution of the 26th February, 1875, without substituting something else for it. He had hoped that that intimation of his opinion would not be lost on the noble Earl if he came forward to make a Motion; but it was clear to him that the noble Earl was embarrassed by his own success, and that he did not know what other Order to substitute for that which he proposed to rescind. The noble Earl talked of the Amendment as being unprecedented; but anything more unprecedented or dangerous than, on a Motion like this, after a general debate to rescind a judicial Order, without venturing to

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say what other more proper Order should be substituted for it, could not be imagined. If the noble Earl had ventured to propose some other Order, there would have been only a choice of two courses open to him. If he had proposed to change the place of the title of Mar which now stands upon the Union Roll, by moving it to a lower position on that Roll, he would have prejudiced any future claim by Mr. Goodeve Erskine, who might hereafter come forward to show that there were two Earldoms of Mar, and that the Earldom now on the Roll was in a position, not lower, at all events, than that in which the more ancient Earldom, claimed by him, ought to be. This was the very thing which the Earl of Mar and Kellie, by his Petition in 1877, had asked the House to do, and which the Committee, then appointed to consider that Petition, for that very reason advised the House not to do. If, on the contrary, he had taken the other alternative, he would, in the name of the House, without any new evidence whatever, and without any judicial grounds before the House, have prejudged the matter in the teeth of the decision arrived at in 1875, by placing on the Union Roll two Earldoms of Mar; for whatever else was doubtful, this was certain—that Lord Cairns (then Lord Chancellor), Lord Chelmsford (a former Chancellor), and the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees, grounded their decision on reasons absolutely inconsistent with the hypothesis of there being, at the date of the Decreet of Ranking, two Earldoms of Mar. If they had not believed that the evidence then before them proved the extinction, and failed to prove the restoration, of the ancient Earldom of Mar, it would have been impossible for them to hold that a Mar Peerage was created in 1565. He did not say whether they were right or not. He (the Lord Chancellor) adhered to what he had said on a former occasion—namely, that, as far as the judgment of the House was concerned, it had decided only that, the Earl of Kellie was entitled to a Peerage created in 1565; and that, if anyone else could now prove his right to a Peerage of Mar of earlier date, it was open to him to come forward and claim it. Noble Lords who took an interest in this question, and more especially the noble Earl who spoke last but one (the Earl of Mansfield), asked them
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in a debate of that sort to proceed on the ground that injustice was done by their former decision. Their Lordships were asked extra-judicially, when probably not half-a-dozen of them had even attempted to read or consider the evidence, to decide against the deliberate judgment of Lord Cairns and the other two learned Lords, and to reverse a judicial decision of that House, on the ground that it was unjust. If anything in the world required to be done judicially, it would be such a reversal of a former Order, and the reasons avowed for such reversal formed the most cogent argument against the course proposed by the noble Earl. Noble Lords, who thought themselves qualified to sit in judgment on the decisions of that House, did not appear to have taken the trouble to inform themselves accurately on some even of the simplest elements of the case. The noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) had said he thought his Motion followed naturally from the Report of the Committee of 1877; but he (the Lord Chancellor) was astonished at that assertion. The Select Committee of 1877 were asked by Lord Kellie to put the title of Mar lower down on the Roll, and the Select Committee thought that the object of the request was, apparently, to prejudice the claim of Mr. Goodeve Erskine. They said, in effect—"If Mr. Erskine asserts his right to be Earl of Mar, let him claim to vote; let there be protests against his claim, and then the matter must come to this House to be determined." It was, therefore, adjudged that nothing should be done on Lord Kellie's Petition; but the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) seemed to think the logical consequence of that decision was that the contrary course should be taken. The whole of the noble Earl's Motion was founded on the argument that it was impossible that the Peerage created in 1565 could be in the place on the Union Roll in which the Peerage of Mar was now found. That would be a very good argument if it were certain that all the Peerages were put on the Roll their proper order; but the Peerage of Mar was in a position on the Roll wholly inexplicable by any theory of that Peerage. The original Peerage was much older than 1404. It was dealt with in 1404 in a somewhat extraordinary manner by the Countess Isabel, the last of the ancient line who ever held the title

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before 1565; and the evidences produced before King James the First's Commission of Ranking, on whose Decreet the Union Roll was founded, carried it back to 1404, and not earlier. But it was placed, by the Decreet of Ranking, and upon the Union Roll, next below the Earldom of Errol, which was not created till above half a century after 1404. If the Union Roll ought to be corrected, and if that could not be done by an application to the Court of Session, it ought to be done in a manner quite different from that proposed by the noble Earl. The Queen was the fountain of honour; and if there were errors in the Decreet of Ranking, which was made in 1606 under Royal authority, let there be a Petition presented to the Crown to have those errors corrected, and possibly the Crown might be advised to issue a Commission of Review, or might, if it were thought fit, refer any particular question of precedence for the determination of this House. If, under such a reference or otherwise, the House should ever have any duty to discharge in the matter, it must proceed in a more judicial manner than that recommended by the noble Earl.
THE EARL OF GALLOWAY,who rose amid cries of "Divide!" reminded their Lordships that he had reserved his remarks on the merits of the case, and that, therefore, he was entitled to be heard. The judgment of the Committee to which the Lord Chancellor and another noble and learned Lord, who had quoted the words of the noble and learned Earl (Earl Cairns) upon the occasion, referred was given five years ago, and he believed that opinions on that subject had altered very much since then. He would like to recall what the noble and learned Earl (Earl Cairns) said in the debate last year—namely—
"That the Peerage on the Roll which is called the Mar Peerage is not the Peerage which has been attached in this House to the Earl of Mar and Kellie; and, therefore, the Earl of Mar and Kellie should not be allowed to answer that call."—[3 Hansard, ccxlviii. 137.]
He considered that that confirmed his argument, that the Order was not consequential upon the judgment of the Committee of Privileges, as suggested in the Amendment of the Chairman of Committees.
THE LORD CHANCELLORobserved, that when the noble Earl quoted that
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same passage from the noble and learned Earl's (Earl Cairns') speech on the 14th of June, the noble and learned Earl himself, after hearing the quotation, told him (the Lord Chancellor) that his words must have been incorrectly reported.
THE EARL OF GALLOWAYreplied, that although the noble and learned. Earl (Earl Cairns) was sitting below him when he read the quotation, he did not offer to challenge its accuracy. It was rather late in the day for them to be told now, in the noble and learned Earl's absence, that the report was not correct. Replying to some of the noble Earl's (the Earl of Redesdale's) criticisms, the noble Earl observed that Her Majesty the Queen had now been upon the Throne over 40 years. Supposing Her Majesty, having created a Peerage in the year 1840, had now appointed Ranking Commissioners to see that each Peer was put according to his proper precedence upon the Roll of Peers; and supposing that a Peer created by Her Majesty in 1840 came before those Commissioners in 1880, and claimed to be put on the Roll for the year 1730—would he have a chance of succeeding in such a claim? ["No!"] Well, this was exactly a similar case. It was exactly 40 years after 1565—namely, in 1605—that the Mar Peerage of 1565 was put upon the Decreet of Ranking. It was upon the authoritative documents he produced that he was put upon the Union Roll. ["Divide!"] He knew their Lordships were weary of this discussion; but he must say a word in reply to what fell from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. It was not for him (the Earl of Galloway) to say what new Order should be substituted for the Order he proposed to rescind. All that he said was that the latter was at variance with the judgment of the Committee of Privileges; and he simply asked their Lordships to support and give effect to the Report of the Committee of Privileges. It had been said that it was open to the owner of the title of the ancient Earldom to go to Holyrood to vote, and thus have the validity of his vote tested. Well, the holder of this ancient Earldom did go to Holyrood; but what happened? The Lord Clerk Register declined to accept his vote, or to allow him to take part in the proceedings, threw his voting list on the floor, and told him he was a Peer of

1233
his own creation. Therefore, this course which he now proposed was the only possible way of getting over the difficulty, and paving the way for a decision. If they removed the barrier offered by that Resolution, then they would give the claimant of the title the opportunity of doing that which noble Lords said he could do already, but which he had shown himself to have been a witness of his not having been allowed to do. He hoped their Lordships would not be carried away entirely by the opinions of noble and learned Lords. He asked them, remembering what had been the practical result hitherto, to support his Resolution, in order that an end might be put to this continual confusion.
THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONwished to confirm the statement of the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor, that his noble and learned Friend (Earl Cairns) denied the accuracy of that part of the report of his speech in Hansard which the noble Earl (the Earl of Galloway) had quoted. In proof of that, he would quote another passage inconsistent with it—namely—
"Now, the Roll of the Peers of Scotland is a public document, and in that Roll there is only one entry of the Earl of Mar. It may be in its right or wrong place—I cannot say anything about that—it is there, and it is to that that this Resolution must have necessarily referred."—[Ibid. 138.]
For himself, he thought their Lordships on the present occasion would do well to follow the advice given on that question by the late Lord Chancellor, by the present Lord Chancellor, and also by the noble Earl the Chairman of Committees.
On Question, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Motion? Their Lordships divided:—Contents 52; Not-Contents 80; Majority 28.

CONTENTS.

Portland, D.

Haddington.E.[Teller.]

Mansfield, E.

Abercorn, M. (D. Abercorn.)

Manvers, E.

Morton, E.

Ailesbury, M.

Sandwich, E.

Bristol, M.

Stanhope, E.

Bute, M.

Stradbroke, E.

Bradford, E.

Lifford, V.

Camperdown, E.

Strathallan, V.

Denbigh, E.

Dundonald, E.

Bateman, L.

Ellesmere, E.

Beaumont, L.

Fortescue, E.

Brabourne, L.

Gainsborough, E.

Calthorpe, L.

1234

Clements, L. (E. Leitrim.)

Oriel, L. (V. Massereene.)

Clifton, L. (E.Darnley.)

Oxenfoord, L. (E.Stair.)

Congleton, L.

Raglan, L.

Conyers, L.

Rayleigh, L.

Elgin, L. (E. Elgin and Kincardine.)

Stanley of Alderley, L.

Ellenborough, L.

Stewart of Garlies, L. (E. Galloway.) [Teller.,]

Ettrick, L. (L.Napier.)

Forester, L.

Stratheden and Camp-

Grey de Radcliffe, L. (V. Grey de Wilton.)

bell, L.

Strathnairn, L.

Houghton, L.

Tollemache, L.

Leigh, L.

Tredegar, L.

Lilford, L.

Trevor, L.

Meldrum, L. (M. Huntly.)

Wentworth, L.

Zouche of Haryng-

Northwick, L.

worth, L.

NOT-CONTENTS.

Selborne, L. (L. Chancellor.)

Carrington, L.

Castlemaine, L.

Devonshire, D.

Clanwilliam, L. (E. Clanwilliam.)

Richmond, D.

Clinton, L.

Westminster, D.

Cottesloe, L.

Bath, M.

De L Isle and Dudley, L.

Lansdowne, M.

Denman, L.

Northampton, M.

Foley, L.

Airlie, E.

Forbes, L.

Amherst, E.

Foxford, L. (E. Limerick.)

Annesley, E.

Gormanston, L. (V. Gormanston.)

Cadogan, E.

Cawdor, E.

Greville, L.

Derby, E.

Hammond, L.

Doncaster, E. (D. Buccleuch and Queensberry.)

Hare, L. (E. Listowel.)

Inchiquin, L.

Granville, E.

Kenmare, L. (E. Kenmare.)

Hardwicke, E.

Ker, L. (M. Lothian.)

Kimberley, E.

Kintore, L. (E. Kintore.)

Mar and Kellie, E.

Minto, E.

Lawrence, L.

Morley, E.

Lovel and Holland, L. (E. Egmont.)

Nelson, E.

Portsmouth, E.

Monson, L. [Teller.]

Ravensworth, E.

Mostyn, L.

Redesdale, E. [Teller.]

Norton, L.

Saint Germans, E.

O'Neill, L.

Selkirk, E.

Ribblesdale, L.

Spencer, E.

Saltersford, L. (E. Courtown.)

Yarborough, E.

Bangor, V.

Saltoun, L.

Sandhurst, L.

Cranbrook, V.

Sefton, L. (E. Sefton.)

Eversley, V.

Sherborne, L.

Hawarden, V.

Silchester, L. (E. Longford.)

Melville, V.

Sherbrooke, V.

Strathspey, L. (E. Seafield.)

Aberdare, L.

Aveland, L.

Sundridge, L. (D. Argyll.)

Bagot, L.

Balfour of Burleigh, L.

Vernon, L.

Blackburn, L.

Walsingham, L.

Bolton, L.

Watson, L.

Borthwick, L.

Wolverton, L.

Boyle, L. (E. Cork and Orrery.)

Wrottesley, L.

Resolved in the Negative.

THE PRISONS ACT, 1875—MAGISTRATES' SENTENCES—THE CASE OF CATHERINE CONNOLY.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF HARDWICKEasked Her Majesty's Government, Whether the report in the daily journals of the 26th of June respecting a sentence passed on Catherine Connoly by Mr. Barstow was correct?
THE EARL OF FIFE,in reply, said, he thought it was only right that he should state that the offence with which this woman was charged was one of a serious nature against prison discipline—namely, conveying tobacco into a prison. When she was charged she made no defence, nor did she state that she was the wife of the prisoner to whom she brought the tobacco; but merely stated that she had been persuaded by a man to put it into the cake she brought. It must be pointed out that even a wife could not be allowed to break the law of prison discipline with impunity, and that if such an idea were to prevail it would be necessary to forbid the visits of wives to husbands in prison, and thus the innocent would suffer for the guilty. Under the circumstances of the case, and considering especially that the husband was already in prison, and that the home would be rendered altogether destitute, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, with the entire concurrence of the magistrate who tried the case, had ordered the remission of the remaining portion of the sentence. The woman was accordingly liberated yesterday.

LOCAL GOVERNMENT (IRELAND) PROVISIONAL ORDERS (ARTIZANS AND LABOURERS DWELLINGS (DUBLIN) AND WATERWORKS (ARMAGH) BILL [H.L.]
A Bill to confirm a certain Provisional Order of the Local Government Board for Ireland made under the Artizans and Labourers Dwellings Improvement Act, 1875, relating to the City of Dublin; and a certain Provisional Order of the said Board made under the Public Health (Ireland) Act, 1878, relating to waterworks in the city of Armagh—Was presented by The LOUD PRESIDENT; read la, and referred to the Examiners. (No. 114.)
House adjourned at half past Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.