Sitting of 29 May 1879

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Rending—Metropolitan Public Carriage Act Amendment! (105).
Second Reading—Supply of Drink on Credit ! (84).
Committee—Children's Dangerous Performances (64).
Committee—Report—Parliamentary Burghs (Scotland)! (90).
Report—Disqualification by Medical Relief ! (6).
Third Reading—Habitual Drunkards! (93); Statute Law Revision (Ireland)! (SO), and passed.

CONTAGIOUS DISEASES (ANIMALS) ACT, 1878—AMERICAN PIGS,

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF BELMOREasked the noble Duke the Lord President of the Council, Whether it is true that swine landed in tins country from America have been found to be affected with trichinosis; and, if so, whether the Government intend to take any precautions against the introduction of the disease?
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON: In answer to my noble Friend, I have to state that in consequence of reports which I received from abroad, a certain portion of swine landed from America in this country were subjected, by my order, to examination by the proper officers of the Veterinary Department, and I regret to say that the result has been the discovery of trichinosis in some of the animals. The investigations are being continued, and therefore I am unable to state what steps, if any, it may be necessary to take in the matter. I would remind my noble Friend that swine coming from America are killed at the port of landing. I am glad that my noble Friend has put the Question, because it enables mo to caution the public in the matter, and to mention that the best precaution against the spread of this complaint—so dire in its effects upon the human species—is that all portions of the swine—ham, pork, and bacon—should be thoroughly well cooked before they are made use of.

OMNIBUS REGULATION BILL—(No. 41.)
(The Earl of Redesdale.)
OMNIBUS REGULATION BILL—(No. 41.)

  COMMITTEE ON RE-COMMITMENT POST-PONED.
  THE EARL OF REDESDALE (CHAIRMAN of COMMITTEES)stated that he proposed to postpone the Committee on the Bill till after the Holidays.
  LORD ABERDAREsuggested that, instead of embracing a great number of regulations in a Bill, it would be better to give the local authorities power to make rules for the regulation of omnibus traffic.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, that would involve the consideration of a number of local Acts. The Bill now before them dealt with the Metropolis, and the question was whether the Home Secretary could not embody certain regulations

  1407
  in those which at present existed, to effect the object of the Bill? He had himself brought in a Bill dealing with the omnibus traffic in the Metropolis.
  Committee put off to Tuesday the 17 th of June next.

CHILDREN'S DANGEROUS PERFORMANCES BILL [H.L.]—(NO. 64.)
(The Earl De La Warr.)
CHILDREN'S DANGEROUS PERFORMANCES BILL [H.L.]—(NO. 64.)

  COMMITTEE POSTPONED.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  LORD ABERDAREsaid, that he had no objection to the main principle of the Bill; but he wished to point out that all legislation of this sort which interfered with labour had been preceded by careful inquiry into the conditions under which that labour was carried on. After that inquiry, they could legislate with a full knowledge of the facts. He should have preferred that that had been done in this case. He was not, however, prepared to object to the future progress of the Bill; but he would suggest that though the House had, perhaps, sufficient materials for legislation on the subject, the Government ought to so far take charge of the Bill as to put such Amendments on the Paper as would change the Bill to the form it ought to assume.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, that it would be throwing great responsibility upon the Government if they were required to take charge of and amend every Bill introduced by a noble Lord. He did not approve of the proposed legislation; but as the House had manifested a strong disposition in favour of it, he bad offered no opposition to the second reading of the Bill on the part of the Government. At the same time, he stated that if it were to pass it must be considerably amended in Committee. He did not, however, think it was fair to put upon the Government the responsibility of introducing Amendments which would make this a satisfactory Bill. The evils attendant upon children being engaged in performances of this kind against their will were admitted, although the Bill might not thoroughly deal with all the matters relating to the subject.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYthought that in making a Bill of that kind what
  1408
  it ought to be, the Government ought to guide the House. The Government ought to take one of two courses—if the Bill, in their opinion, was not capable of improvement, they ought to move its rejection; if it was, on the other hand, capable of being amended, they ought to propose the necessary Amendments.
  EARL DE LA WARRsaid, as the Government had accepted the principle of the Bill, he should be glad to consider any Amendments proposed by them.
  THE EARL OF BEACONSFIELDsuggested that his noble Friend who had charge of the Bill (Earl De La Warr) would do well to postpone further proceeding with the Bill till after the Holidays; and, in the meanwhile, his noble Friend could be well occupied in revising the measure and framing in it such Amendments as he might think desirable.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYhad a personal interest in hoping that the noble Earl (Earl De La Warr) would carefully consider Amendments. The Bill, as it stood, put very considerable penalties and severe responsibilities upon the owner of a circus. Now, every Easter Monday a great number of people came into his neighbourhood, and a circus was erected in one of his fields; and, therefore, he was the owner of that circus, though he must venture to decline to be either responsible for the age of the children employed in the circus, or the performances in which they were engaged.
  EARL DE LA WARRsaid, ho would accept the suggestion of the noble Earl at the head of the Government.
  THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYsaid, that the Bill did not touch some of the worst cruelty practised on young athletes and acrobats—namely, that which they underwent during their training.
  House resumed.
  To be again in Committee on Tuesday the 17 th of June next.

TURKEY—CRETE—REPORTED DISTURBANCES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD COLCHESTERasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If Her Majesty's Government have any information as to the truth of the reported dis-

  1409
  turbances in the Island of Crete? Since he gave Notice of his Question, he had seen, by the usual sources of information, that Papers had been promised in "another place" relative to the affairs of Crete, since the termination of the Correspondence now before Parliament. In asking at that moment what foundation existed for the statements in some of the public journals concerning a serious, if partial, insurrection against the order of things now established in Crete, an order of things which that Correspondence gave some hope would be at length accepted by the people of that long-distracted Island, he trusted that the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Salisbury) might be able to state that they were either wholly or in a great measure incorrect, and had no other foundation than those partial disorders which, perhaps, could not at once be expected to disappear. He hoped that it might be so, not only for the sake of the tranquillity of Crete, or of the importance which it derived from its geographical position with regard to the interests of the Powers of Europe in the Mediterranean; but because it was the ground on which the first essay was being carried on of the reformed organization proposed to be carried out in other Provinces of European Turkey, and its success or failure in Crete could hardly fail to be taken as an augury of the prospects of similar reform elsewhere. Those of their Lordships who had at all followed this subject would remember that the Constitution established after the revolt and civil war of 1867–8, though offering many of the elements of good government, failed to command confidence and produce contentment—partly, perhaps, because it was not fully carried out, partly because it gave a share in the General Assembly to the Christian majority which, though far from insignificant, fell short of that to which they thought that their numbers entitled them, and which was requisite to protect their interests. Then, it appeared from the Papers before their Lordships that after that conflict and bloodshed of which the Island was the scene during the last year, the indefatigable exertions of the British Agents, and particularly of Consul Sandwith, seemed to have brought about the acceptance on both parts of a reformed organization, securing the essential liberties of both creeds and
  1410
  races, and giving a decided predominance to the Christian majority in the representation of the Island, while insuring a full and generous recognition to the Mussulman minority, a recognition important not only for their due protection, but because an organization that overlooked the rights of the most warlike and hitherto dominant part of the population could hardly be lasting in itself, nor be accepted by the Porte in good faith. The Native Mussulmans, indeed, seemed, as it were, not altogether satisfied. Consul Sandwith, who stated that, observed in the same letter (November 4, 1878) that the great bulk of the Christians were well contented with the present arrangement, provided it were guaranteed by Her Majesty's Government that it should henceforth be a more difficult task for Greek committees to stir up the Island to a fresh revolt, and that if time were allowed for the growth of material prosperity, the motives impelling to revolution would gradually cease. Unfortunately, some discontent appeared to have arisen from the change of intention relative to the appointment of a Governor. The Christians had desired that Costaki Pasha, who had previously discharged his functions to the satisfaction of all parties, might be allowed to remain as the first Vali under the new system; but they were well contented by the appointment of Caratheodori Pasha. This appointment, however, was suddenly cancelled, and the substitution of Photiades Pasha, who ultimately was appointed to the office, seemed to have caused much distrust and dissatisfaction. It was evident that any person intrusted by the Turkish Government with the working of the new organization must have a difficult task, seeing that not only the reality, but the appearance, of any injustice or want of fidelity in executing what had been promised might have disastrous consequences; and it was to be hoped that no such imprudence would mar the prospect of better things which seemed at last secured to the Cretan people. Some of their Lordships might have noticed that the supposed seat of disorder was said to be the district of Sphakia, a report which, if true, was in one sense a hopeful sign, as the position of that district was altogether peculiar. Claiming certain special privileges, it stood to the rest of Crete somewhat as Crete had

  1411
  stood to the rest of the Empire, unwilling to be absorbed in a general organization as the Cretans were to accept for themselves a share in the Constitution set up by Midhat Pasha. He hoped they might hear from the noble Marquess that the tranquillity of the Island under its organic statute was not seriously menaced, though the smouldering fires of antagonism and animosity engendered by long years, partly of mis-rule and partly of anarchy, could not altogether be extinguished in a moment even by a reform so full of promise for the future as the one now granted appeared to be.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURY: My Lords, I received yesterday a despatch from Consul Sandwith, whom my noble Friend (Lord Colchester) has mentioned in terms of just commendation, and there was nothing in the language he used to lead me to believe that any disturbances were going on in Crete. My information does not confirm the statement of my noble Friend that there is any want of confidence felt in the new Governor, Photiades Pasha. There is no doubt the people were at first a little disappointed at the sudden change, when Caratheodori Pasha was summoned to be Foreign Minister at Constantinople; but they have not shown any want of trust in the present Governor, who is a man of distinction, has served in high diplomatic posts, and is very highly valued by his Christian fellow-subjects. There have been some differences of opinion. My noble Friend has alluded to the discontent of the people at Sphakia. Their discontent is a species of Home Rule feeling; they want the capital to be in their district, and the capital is really somewhere else; and that was a grievance which at one time they were much inclined to make a subject of armed resistance, but happily they were influened by better counsels. There has also been some difference of opinion with the Porte upon a subject which I am sorry to say gives a great deal of perplexity and trouble to the Porte at the present moment—I mean the subject of finance. There was a promise on the part of the Porte that certain customs and revenues should be paid to the people of Crete, and orders arrived from Constantinople that the accumulated result of those revenues should be duly paid over; but when they came to examine into the matter, somehow it turned out there was
  1412
  no accumulation at all, and no one exactly knows what has become of the money. That circumstance produced a little embarrassment and discontent. The real truth is that this is a very warlike population, amongst whom there have been disturbances for many years. There are causes of deep-seated animosity, owing to the long contest between Mussulmans and Christians, and what is wanted in the Island is a very strong and effective gendarmerie to keep order. Unfortunately, this strong and effective gendarmerie requires money for its sustenance. It is true the Albanians have refused to serve, or give their valuable assistance, and the result is that undoubtedly there are some occasional crimes of violence committed which may be very easily exaggerated and treated as popular disorders; but anything indicating discontent on the part of the people with the Constitution recently granted, as far as my information goes, does not exist.

CRIMINAL LAW—EXECUTION OF CATHERINE CHURCHILL AT TAUNTON—ADMISSION OF THE PRESS.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD HOUGHTONasked, Whether permission to be present at the intramural execution of Catherine Churchill in Taunton Prison on Monday the 26th of May was refused to all reporters and other persons than the officials of the prison? In doing so, he would ask their Lordships to remember that though the removal of the place of execution from Tyburn Gate to the outside of Newgate was effected solely by the authority of the Secretary of State, yet when he suggested many years ago to Sir James Graham that executions should take place inside the walls of the gaols, that distinguished statesman said that it was a matter of such importance as to seriously affect the question of punishment by death, and he would not meddle with it except under the authority of an Act of Parliament. The public mind became similarly impressed, and an Act was passed authorizing intramural executions in 1868; but, at the same time, precautions were taken that there should be an element of publicity about them for the purpose of properly bringing so awful an occurrence fully before the public mind, and a promise

  1413
  was given by its promoters that though, if it passed, executions would no longer occur in public places, they would be public in the best souse of the word. Now, he submitted that that promise ought to be invariably fulfilled, so that the public should know that the solemn act of the law had been properly carried out. He thought that executions thus regulated had been very successful and productive of great moral results, and it would appear that the people were contented with the alteration in the law, the scenes of violence and confusion which once existed having been abolished. Therefore, he was very anxious that nothing should be done to cause any bad feeling against the change which had taken place; but, at the same time, he feared that a most obnoxious effect would be produced on the public mind if the practice were continued of excluding persons from witnessing the manner in which an execution had been carried out, as had taken place in the ease under notice. He had read statements of bad management on the part of some persons at executions; and, therefore, he thought that everything should be public, so that the people might know what had taken place within the walls. Besides, during the last year or two, prisons had been transferred to the jurisdiction of the Home Office; and it was possible that less attention would be paid to these matters, now that the authority of the Visiting Justices had been reduced. No doubt, executions were carried out under the jurisdiction of the High Sheriff of the county or the Sheriff of the town, as the case might be. In the present case the power of exclusion was exercised by the High Sheriff himself, and, therefore, the Home Office, as such, could not be considered as responsible for any malfeasance or fault in the matter; but still it raised the important question as to the transference of the whole of the authority of the Visiting Justices to the Home Office; and it might be well that at all executions a public reporter should be present, because, in the event of any horrible mishap occurring, the facts would be sure to come out even if they were not present, and might appear in an exaggerated form, and a great deal of injury might result. Another point to be considered in connection with this question was, that a Commission in France had reported in
  1414
  favour of public executions being conducted in accordance with the present English system; and, no doubt, attention in France would be drawn to this subject, and any scandal occurring here with regard to intramural executions might extend beyond the Channel. His wish was that nothing should be done or said to damage the law which was at present in force, and under which there had been great success through its admirable working.
  EARL BEAUCHAMPsaid, he was not in a position to answer the Question precisely; but he could give the noble Lord some general information with respect to the subject. The Act of Parliament now in force received the Royal Assent 11 years ago that day; but the noble Lord did not seem to be fully aware of the provisions of it. It provided that executions should be within the walls of a prison, and that the Sheriff, chaplain, gaoler, surgeon, and other officers of the prison should be present. Those persons were compelled by the law to be the official witnesses of the execution; and their presence, therefore, was an adequate guarantee of the judgment of the law being carried out. The Act also provided that the Justices of the Peace within whose jurisdiction an execution took place, should be permitted to be present, and power was given to the Sheriff to admit such other persons as he might think proper to be present. Under the Act of 1868 the whole of the responsibility in this respect was, therefore, thrown on the High Sheriff and the Visiting Justices. By the new Prisons Act the powers of the Visiting Justices were transferred to the Home Secretary; but as the local authorities must have better means of knowing what was advisable in particular cases, the Home Secretary had thought fit not to make any regulations in respect of admissions to executions, but to leave the matter in the hands of the High Sheriff. Therefore, when the Prisons Act was passed, it was thought desirable to make the High Sheriff' responsible. Duo publication was given to the carrying out of the law by the holding of the Coroner's inquest, and careful provision was made in that regard by the Act of 1868, so that he thought that ample facilities existed for securing publicity to the fact that the judgment of the law had been solemnly executed. He had

  1415
  no information as to the particular case referred to by the noble Lord, but assumed that the High Sheriff had exercised his discretion in a proper manner.
  EARL FORTESCUEsaid, that it was generally understood that the object of making executions private was that the public might be spared disgusting and sensational details in connection with them, and that object would be defeated if reporters were allowed to be present at them. His understanding was that the publicity requisite for establishing the fact that the execution had been properly carried out was already provided for by the presence of a certain number of prison officials, and a Coroner's inquest to be held afterwards on the body; and he could not help thinking that in the case of the Taunton execution the High Sheriff of Somersetshire had exercised a wise discretion in excluding reporters, and he hoped that the example would be followed by other High Sheriffs. He would remind their Lordships that, owing to the reading of a very graphic description of an execution—that of Peace—a party of children had actually in play recently hanged one of their own playfellows. Looking at the precautions adopted for the carrying out of the sentences, the more private, therefore, the executions were, the better.
  LORD HOUGHTONsaid, he still remained in the opinion that it was of the utmost importance that there should be persons present at these executions other than the mere prison officials. While executions might be private, they ought not to be secret, and his belief was there was a danger of their becoming so.

  METROPOLITAN PUBLIC CARRIAGE ACT AMENDMENT BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to amend the Metropolitan Public Carriage Act, 1869—Was presented by The LORD STEWARD; read 1a. (No. 105.)
  House adjourned at Six o'clock, till To-morrow, Eleven o'clock.