Sitting of 20 March 1879

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN—Lord Brooke, for Somerset County (Eastern Division).
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—CIVIL SERVICE SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES, 1878–9.
WAYS AND MEANS—considered in Committee—Resolutions [March 19] reported.
PRIVATE BILL (by Order)—Second Reading— Hundred of Hoo Railway*.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Lunacy Law Amendment [111]; Land Tax Commissioners' Names* [109]; General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Provisional Order (Paisley) * [110]; Consolidated Fund (No. 2) *.
Second Reading—Parliamentary Elections and Corrupt Practices [78].
Committee—Report—Drainage and Improvement of Lands (Ireland) Provisional Order Confirmation * [94].

QUESTIONS.
  INDIA—THE INDIAN BUDGET.

    QUESTION.
    MR. FAWCETTasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether, considering the serious position of Indian finance as disclosed by the recent Budget, he can make any arrangement which will afford the House the opportunity of considering on an early day the proposals of the Indian Government for the coming financial year?
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,in reply, said, it would undoubtedly be desirable that this year the financial arrangements of India should be brought under the notice of the House at an earlier period than usual. It was all the more necessary on account of the proposal about to be made for a grant by himself. He had consulted his hon. Friend the Under Secretary of State for India; and, in concert with him, he thought an undertaking might be given that the Indian Budget would be brought under the notice of that House in the course of the month of May.
    MR. FAWCETTgave Notice, that when the Indian Budget was brought forward, he would move a series of Resolutions asking the House to express its opinion of the imperative necessity

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    of reducing the expenditure of India, considering the present position of Indian finance.

  CORONERS (IRELAND).—QUESTION.
  MR. O'SHAUGHNESSYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether Her Majesty's, Government will, during the present Session, proceed to carry out by legislation, wholly or partially, the suggestions made to him on the 7th ult. by a deputation of the Irish Coroners with regard to their position?
  MR. J. LOWTHER: Sir, a Bill has, I understand, been introduced on the subject of coroners which does not apply to Ireland; but there appears to be a fair opportunity for considering the case of Irish coroners, as the Bill, I am told, is to be referred to a Select Committee, and I understand that four Irish Members have been selected to serve on that Committee.

  IRISH CHURCH TEMPORALITIES COMMISSIONERS— THE REPORT FOR 1878.

    QUESTION.
    MR. HEYGATEasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, When the Report, for 1878, of the Irish Church Temporalities Commissioners will be published?
    MR. J. LOWTHER: Sir, I am informed that there are some technical matters requiring adjustment, which will delay the presentation of the Report. I cannot exactly say how soon it will be ready, and a fortnight may elapse before it can be presented.

  SOUTH AFRICA—SHIPMENT OF ARMS.

    QUESTION.
    MR. RITCHIEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether returned Government rifles and revolvers are now sold by public tender; and, whether, in view of the fact that many of these are purchased for a few shillings and shipped to Africa, the Government will consider the advisability of discontinuing such sale?
    LORD EUSTACE CECIL: Sir, in answer to the Question of the hon. Member, I have to say that no revolvers or breech-loading arms have been sold that I am aware of. There have been two public sales of muzzle-loading rifles, all of which were unserviceable, and for the most part unsafe. These sales took place last year, and no fur-
    1308
    ther sales are contemplated at present. I may add, as no doubt my hon. Friend is very well aware, that a large quantity of breech-loading arms are yearly sold in Europe and America, which may possibly find their way to the African market. As regards the price of the arms sold, I cannot give a precise answer; but I think 5s. or 6s. each would be the nearest sum. I could fix.

  THE BRITISH MUSEUM—THE NATURAL HISTORY COLLECTION.

    QUESTION.
    LORD ARTHUR RUSSELLasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether Her Majesty's Government intend, on the removal of the Natural History Collection from the British Museum to South Kensington, to carry out the recommendation contained in the Fourth Report of the Royal Commission on Scientific Instruction (page 23), and to effect a change in the governing authority of that division of the British Museum?
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, the arrangements which will have to be made on the removal of the Natural History Collections from the British Museum to South Kensington are under the consideration of the Government; but they are still in so inchoate a state that I cannot answer with any precision the Question of the noble Lord.

  PUBLIC LOANS—PUBLIC WORKS LOANS BILL.—QUESTION.
  MR. CHAMBERLAINasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether the Public Works Loan Commissioners are already enforcing the conditions of Clause 4 of the Public Works Loans Bill before that Bill has been read a second time; and, if this course has been taken, whether he will give instructions that the system adopted by the Commissioners during the last ten years, in fixing the method of repayment of Public Loans, shall not be changed until after this House has had an opportunity of discussing the principles of the Bill and expressing an opinion upon it; also, whether he could give any information as to the probable time when the second reading of the Bill would be taken?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, with regard to the last

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  part of the Question, I am afraid I am not at present in a position to fix a day for the second reading of the Bill. Having regard to the state of Business, I think it would be inconvenient to make it a first Order; but I am trying to get as early a day as I can for the discussion of the Bill. With regard to the other part of the hon. Gentleman's Question, I may state that the 4th clause is that which prescribes that in future loans shall be always repaid by instalments, and not by means of annuities, including both principal and interest. But, though that clause would make the practice compulsory, it is now competent for the Public Works Loan Commissioners to require repayment in that way. In point of fact, they have always had that power, and they have very largely exercised it in some instances. I am informed by them that there has been no variation in that practice since the Public Works Loans Bill was framed and introduced, except in one particular in the case of the Labourers' Dwellings Act of 1866. That, of course, is not the Artizans' Dwellings Act of 1875. That one case of variation has been made with the sanction of the Treasury. It was entirely within the power of the Public Works Loan Commissioners and the Treasury to make that arrangement; and it is not effected under Clause 4 of the Public Works Loans Bill now before the House.

  JAMAICA—FLOGGING FOR LIBEL.

    QUESTION.
    MR. ERRINGTONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether it is true, as stated in West Indian newspapers, that a Criminal Code is being passed for Jamaica in which flogging is provided as a punishment for libel, whether "wilful" or "negligent;" and, if so, whether this provision was introduced with the knowledge or sanction of Her Majesty's Government, and what course he proposes to pursue in the matter?
    SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: Sir, a draft Criminal Code was prepared in this country for Jamaica in 1877, by the direction of my Predecessor in office, and a copy of it was presented to Parliament in August of that year. It was also sent out to Jamaica for consideration there by the Colonial Legislature. It contains a provision for whip-
    1310
    ping as a punishment for intentional libel, if the libel impute an infamous crime, but not for negligent libel, nor for intentional libel except in the case specified. It is now under discussion by the Legislature of Jamaica; and when that discussion is concluded it will be returned here, with any amendments that may be made, for my consideration and decision, when this and other points will, of course, come before me. But no part of it will be put into force until it has received the assent of the Secretary of State.

  CRIMINAL LAW—THE DEVONPORT WATCH COMMITTEE.—QUESTION.
  SIR WILFRID LAWSONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether the Inspector of Constabulary has again reported that the Devonport Watch Committee continue the practice of making a preliminary investigation into all police charges against licensed houses before such cases are brought before the magistrates, with the result that half of these charges have been suppressed during the last year; and, if he sees his way to any method of checking the irregularity reported by the inspector?
  MR. ASSHETON CROSS,in reply, said, it was quite true that the Inspector had made the Report to which the hon. Baronet alluded. As he had before stated, he entirely disapproved the practice, and he would say so again. The results, however, were not quite the same as the hon. Baronet stated. The Town Clerk wrote that during the year 19 cases were reported, that 16 were summoned, and that only three were dismissed by the Watch Committee. But he (Mr. Assheton Cross) could not help observing that if this practice had not been followed at Devonport, more cases would probably have been brought forward by the police.

  LAW AND JUSTICE—CRIMINAL ASSIZES.—QUESTION.
  MR. COLEasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If he can inform the House how many of the 125 prisoners recently stated on the highest authority to have been acquitted at the Criminal Assizes in October and November last were charged with offences triable at Quarter Sessions?
  MR. ASSHETON CROSS,in reply, said, the number acquitted was 122, and not 125. Of that number 16 were chargeable with offences which could have been tried at Quarter Sessions.

  NAVY—THE ROYAL YACHT "OSBORNE."—QUESTION.
  DR. KENEALYasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether it is true as stated in the papers that a sum of £20,000 of public money has been recently expended on the Queen's ship "Osborne," which conveys the Duke of Connaught to the Mediterranean; and, if not, what sum; and, if the said ship has not already cost the Country nearly a quarter of a million?
  MR. W. H. SMITH: I must beg leave, if the House will allow me, to answer the Question, instead of my right hon. Friend. The amount which has been, and will be, spent upon the Osborne is between £18,000 and £19,000. This amount includes the new boilers, an overhaul of the machinery, and a refit generally. I need hardly say that this refit was necessary, or the work would not have been undertaken, and it would have been carried out quite irrespective of His Royal Highness the Duke of Connaught's visit to the Mediterranean. It was undertaken, in fact, long before it was known the Duke would visit the Mediterranean. The original cost of the Osborne was £105,919, and, including the £18,000 just spent upon her, a further sum of £71,000 has been expended upon her since, and she has thus cost £177,000. She was built in 1869–70.

  DOMINION OF CANADA—THE NEW TARIFF.—QUESTIONS.
  MR. JOHN BRIGHTasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, If he can lay upon the Table of the House a Copy of the new Tariff now before the Canadian Parliament; if any communication has taken place between Her Majesty's Government and the Governor General, or Government of Canada, on the subject of the proposed increased Customs and Protective Duties in Canada; whether it is intended to represent to the Canadian Government the impolicy of a war of Tariffs between different portions of the Empire; and, whether it is true that the "instructions" to Lord Lorne omitted, for the
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  first time, the Clause requiring that Bills imposing differential Duties should be reserved for Her Majesty's approval?
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: Sir, a summary of the proposed Tariff has been received by telegraph, but not such a complete statement of it as I could lay before Parliament as correct. The summary reached me on the 11th of March, this being the first communication T had received of the details of the scheme; and on the following day I was informed by the Governor General that his Government proposed to bring it before the Dominion Parliament on the 14th of March. There was no time evidently then for any detailed examination of the proposals, and I therefore telegraphed that—
  "Her Majesty's Government regretted to observe that the general effect of the Tariff was to increase duties already high, but deemed that the fiscal policy of Canada rested, subject to Treaty obligations, with the Dominion Legislature."
  The Canadian Government fully understands the fiscal policy of this country; and I may add that I believe, though I could not positively say so at present until I have seen the actual Tariff itself, that there is nothing in the present proposals which has not been previously sanctioned, at least in principle, by Canadian legislation. In 1876–7, as the result of much correspondence between my Predecessor and the Dominion Government, the Instructions to be issued to Lord Dufferin's Successor were thoroughly revised, and in that revision the clause specifying certain classes of Bills—among them being Bills imposing differential duties—as those which should be reserved for Her Majesty's approval were omitted. This was done without any reference to a Protectionist policy, the Dominion Government, as the right hon. Gentleman is aware, then in Office being freetraders. The alteration of the Instructions, however, of course, in no way interferes with the power of reservation and of disallowance, those powers being fully set forth in the British North American Act of 1867.
  Afterwards,
  MR. JOHN BRIGHTsaid, he wished to ask a Question of the Secretary of State for the Colonies, which he ought to have put immediately the right hon. Gentleman sat down—Whether he un-

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  derstood, notwithstanding the omission of the clause to which he referred in the Instructions of the Marquess of Lorne, that, in case of any proposal to enact differential duties on the part of Canada, the Bill would be submitted to the Government before it was adopted? He also wished to know, Whether the right hon. Baronet knew of any case now pending in which the Government of Canada was engaged in negotiation with some foreign Government with the view to the imposing of differential or increased duties? If the right hon. Gentleman had not heard of such a case, he could not, of course, expect an answer.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: I am not aware, Sir, of any such negotiations. With regard to the first part of the Question, perhaps, the best answer I can give to it will be to read the telegram which I sent to Canada, which received the sanction of the Government. It was in these terms—
  "They deemed the fiscal policy of Canada rested, subject to Treaty obligations, with the Dominion Parliament."

  CENTRAL ASIA—REPORTED RUSSIAN ADVANCE ON MERV.—QUESTION.
  LORD ROBEBT MONTAGUasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he can give any information to the House concerning a report in the "Standard" of March 18th, announcing the despatch of 20,000 Russian troops across the Caspian to unite with other troops, and with the probable intention of seizing Merv?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: No, Sir, I have no information that I can lay before the House. We have heard reports as to the movements of the Russian troops in that quarter; but we have no information that would justify us in stating what their probable destination was.

  SOUTH AFRICA—DESPATCHES.

    QUESTION.
    MR. CHAMBERLAINasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether the Government have addressed any communications to Sir Bartle Frere, on the subject of his policy in South Africa, since January 23rd, 1879, and besides the short Despatch of February 12th; and, if so, whether there is any objec-
    1314
    tion to laying them upon the Table before the day fixed for the discussion on the Zulu War?
    SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH,in reply, said, he informed the hon. Member the other day that there would be some further despatches, and among them would be found those communications to which he referred. They would be in the hands of hon. Members on Friday or Saturday.

  JAPAN—MEDICINAL OPIUM.

    QUESTION.
    MR. MARK STEWARTasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, When the publication of the new regulations for the admission of medicinal opium into Japan may be expected; and, whether he has any objection to lay them upon the Table of the House as soon as they are agreed upon, together with all Correspondence relating to this subject?
    MR. BOURKE,in reply, said, that Her Majesty's Minister in Japan had been instructed last month to send home the new regulations on this matter. They had not yet arrived. They could not be presented to the House until Her Majesty's Government had an opportunity of considering them.

  GAS AND WATER SUPPLY (METROPOLIS). —QUESTION.
  SIR UGHTRED KAY-SHUTTLE-WORTHasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, with reference to what he said in his Speech of April the 5th last Session, viz:—
  "No one could hold the office which he had the honour to fill and refuse to admit that there were great faults in the government of London; he would go further, and say that there were questions connected with it which must undoubtedly be settled, seeing that Bills had been introduced by the Metropolitan Board of Works for taking upon itself the whole of the Water and Gas supply of London, and taking into account the Report of the Eire Brigade Committee which sat one or two Sessions ago,"
  Whether, having made this statement, and, further, having on behalf of Her Majesty's Government been the cause of the abandonment, both last Session and again this year, of the Metropolitan Board's Bills for dealing with the Water supply of London, he intends to make any legislative proposals on these subjects during the present Session?
  MR. ASSHETON CROSSin reply, said, he was glad to find that the words he made use of last year had made such an impression, and it was not his wish or intention to retract any of them. Since he made the speech referred to, he had been in constant communication with his right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board, and the matter had certainly not been lost sight of. The subject required very careful consideration, and he could not promise any immediate legislation.

  ARMY DISCIPLINE (ANNUAL) ACT.

    QUESTION.
    SIR ALEXANDER GORDONasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he will lay upon the Table of the House, before the Second Beading of the Army Discipline and Regulation Bill, a Copy of the proposed Army Discipline Annual Act, by which the proposed permanent Army Discipline Act will be annually brought into operation?
    COLONEL STANLEY,in reply, said, he had no objection to lay on the Table of the House a Copy of the Bill referred to. The Bill in question simply recited the Preamble of the Mutiny Act, the number of men voted by Parliament, and, finally, attached the permanent Act. That was the whole substance of the measure.

  NAVY—H.M.S. "BOADICEA."

    QUESTION.
    LORD CHARLES BERESFORDasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is true that on the arrival of H.M.S "Boadicea" at Simon's Bay on January 28th, with some cases of smallpox on board among the Kroomen, leave was refused by the Colonial sanitary authorities for the sick men to be sent on shore to the naval hospital, and whether in consequence the progress of the disease on board was seriously increased; and, whether the presence of the "Boadicea" and her ship's company at Natal would have been of the utmost national importance during the time she was detained by the action of the colonial authorities?
    MR. W. H. SMITH: Sir, I must express my extreme regret that this fine ship could not, on her arrival at the Cape, have proceeded at once to Natal. She arrived at the Cape with 14 cases of
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    smallpox on board, and it is true that the Colonial authorities refused permission to land the sick men. They were, however, transferred to the Flora, the receiving ship, and it was hoped that this action would have stamped out the disease. Unfortunately, a second attack broke out a fortnight later, and still further detained her. After these outbreaks, it was absolutely necessary that the ship's company should be isolated and the ship remain in quarantine for fumigation, etc. Therefore, had the ship proceeded to Natal, her services could not have been utilized. The Colonial authorities imposed a quarantine of 21 days from the date of the last appearance of smallpox on board the ship.

  CRIMINAL LAW—CASE OF JAMES SWANTON.—QUESTION.
  MR. SULLIVANasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If it is true that in the case of a man named James Swanton, who died at Glengarriff under suspicious circumstances on the 24th of December last, the coroner did not attend to hold an inquest until the 7th of January; who was responsible for such delay; and, is it the fact that no post-mortem examination of the body took place?
  MR. J. LOWTHER: I learn from a telegram received from the sub-inspector of the district that the circumstances attending the death of James Swanton were these. He and his wife retired to bed on the night of the 23rd of December in a state of intoxication. During the night the husband fell out of bed and died the following morning. The death was reported to the Coroner the same day. An inquest was held on the 31st of December. The verdict was to the effect that death was caused by apoplexy, accelerated by cold and drink Under these circumstances, no post-mortem examination was considered necessary.

  DURATION OF PARLIAMENTS.

    QUESTION.
    MR. W. H. JAMESasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If there would be any objection to lay upon the Table of the House a Return of the exact duration of the several Parliaments from the year 1603 to the present time?
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,in reply, said, there would, of

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    course, be no objection to lay this Return on the Table; but he wished to call the hon. Gentleman's attention to the fact that a very minute table of the duration of the several Parliaments from the reign of Henry VIII. to the present time was already in his hands. Any one of the calendars to which everybody had access gave the date of each Parliament, its duration, and the number of years, months, and days for which it sat. In these circumstances, such a Return as the hon. Member asked for would hardly be necessary.

  ARMY—SIXTEEN-SHOOTER RIFLES.

    QUESTION.
    COLONEL BARNEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether the Military authorities have considered the propriety of arming a certain proportion of each battalion of the Army with sixteen-shooter rifles to be used for hand to hand fighting?
    LORD EUSTACE CECIL: The question of magazine arms is under consideration, but no decision at present has been arrived at. An exhaustive trial was made in the United States in 1877–8. Out of 27 magazine rifles, one was selected as most suitable for military service. A few of this pattern have been ordered for trial, and a few also of a pattern approved by the Austrian Government. When these have been thoroughly tested, we shall be in a condition to come to some decision on the subject.

  THE LORDS' COMMITTEE ON INTEMPERANCE —THE REPORT AND EVIDENCE. —QUESTION.
  MR. BLAKEasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If he will be good enough to cause Copies of the Evidence taken before the Lords' Committee on Intemperance, together with their Lordships' Report thereon, to be supplied to Members of this House?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I believe the whole evidence taken by the Lords' Committee has already been printed and distributed. It is only necessary, therefore, to send a message to their Lordships, asking for the communication of their Report, and the Secretary for the Treasury will move that it be laid on the Table.

  MALTA—THE RECENT RIOTS.

    QUESTION.
    MR. ANDERSONasked the Secretary of State for the Colonies, If he will cause the whole Correspondence between the Colonial Office and the Local Government at Malta respecting the riots of the 15th May last to be laid upon the Table?
    SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH,in reply, said, there would be no objection to do as the hon. Member asked.

  NEWSPAPER CORRESPONDENTS IN THE FIELD.—QUESTION.
  MR. ANDERSONasked the Secretary of State for War, If it is in accordance with Army Regulations that the Staff Officers of a General on active service in the Field should hold also appointments as newspaper correspondents?
  COLONEL STANLEY: Sir, the Regulations of the Army do not sanction Staff officers of a General on active service in the field holding any such appointments; while officers are held personally responsible for any reports relative to the numbers, movements, or operations of the troops, for any military details which they may make known without the special permission of the General in command, or for allowing any information to get beyond their control, so as to find its way into unauthorized hands. Any deviation from these Orders must be upon the personal responsibility of the General in command.
  MR. ANDERSONhoped the right hon. and gallant Gentleman had taken, or would take, care that General Roberts paid attention to this Regulation.

  ISLAND OF CYPRUS—HEALTH OF THE TROOPS.—QUESTION.
  MR. A. C. BARCLAY (for Mr. BRASSEY)asked the Secretary of State for War, If it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to make further inquiry, by a Medical Commission or otherwise, into the probable effect of the climate of Cyprus on the health of British troops quartered there, or if any plan is already arranged for protecting the troops from disease, or for removing them from the island during the summer months?
  COLONEL STANLEY: Sir, a very exhaustive Report on the subject has been

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  received from Sir Anthony Home, the principal medical officer, and will shortly be laid on the Table. That Report deals so fully with the matter, that at present I do not think it necessary to suggest the appointment of any Medical Commission to make further inquiry. I understand that a good summer station has been found for the troops, at a considerable elevation, and probably a portion of the 20th Regiment will soon be removed to Malta.

  PARLIAMENT—STATE OE PUBLIC BUSINESS.—OBSERVATIONS.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Before proceeding to the Orders of the Day, I would ask permission of the House to call their attention to the present state of Business with reference to the Civil Service Supplementary Estimates and the Excess Votes, which stand as the First Order of the Day. The House is aware that it is necessary that these Votes should be passed, and that the authority to pay the money out of the Exchequer in respect of them should be given before the 31st March, the close of the financial year. The process which is necessary is, that, after voting in Committee of Supply the Supplies that are asked for, the Report should be taken as the next stage. Then a Resolution will have to be proposed in Committee of Ways and Means, and that also has to be reported. Then a Bill has to be brought in, and passed through all its stages in both Houses; and it is necessary that that process should be gone through at least a day before the 31st of March, in order that the further steps may be taken which are necessary for getting the money out of the Exchequer. If any failure were to take place in that respect, we should be put to the alternative either of not supplying the money for certain services for which it is necessary, or we should be in the position of being almost compelled to violate the Appropriation Act, which, of course, is not to be contemplated. Therefore, it is really absolutely necessary for the regularity of our proceedings, that we should get these Votes through in proper time. I have had the days very closely calculated, and I find that unless we are able to pass these Estimates to-night we shall not be in time. There are, I know, a large number of Notices down on
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  going into Committee of Supply, and several of them refer to matters of great interest, and upon which, no doubt, considerable debate might arise, and the House is always naturally, and I may say properly, unwilling to take up the voting of Supplies very late in the evening. I am therefore now about to make an appeal to hon. Members who have Notices on the Paper to allow us on this occasion to go into Committee of Supply without discussing those Notices. But I feel that it would be unreasonable in me to make that request to hon. Members, if I were not able to put them in as good a position as if they had not made that sacrifice, and I believe that it is in my power to do so by a proposal which I shall now make. It is this—if hon. Gentlemen will consent to waive their Notices to-night, and to allow you, Sir, to leave the Chair, and let us go into Committee, and if—which I cannot doubt—we get through the Supplementary Estimates and the Excess Votes to-night, I should then propose on Monday to place Supply, not as the First Order of the Day, but as the Second. The First Order will be the formal stage of Committee of Ways and Means, which will only occupy a few minutes; and thus Supply would practically become the First Order. Standing as the Second, however, it would not come within the Rule which was passed the other day; and, therefore, all the Notices which are on the Paper for to-night, might be brought forward in their order on Monday. I make this proposal for the advancement of the Public Business, and I think hon. Gentlemen will see that it is one which is fair, and that it does not impose any disadvantage upon those to whom I make an appeal.
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, that having the first Notice on the Paper, he would at once accede to the right hon. Gentleman's request.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, he had a Notice on the Paper upon a very important question, which he was most anxious to bring before the House. His position was a somewhat peculiar one, as he had intended to bring it on the previous Friday, but had not been able to do so in consequence of the action of the Government. However, he would return good for evil, and submit to the Chancellor of the Exchequer's necessity, though he hoped that an opportunity

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  would be given him for bringing the question forward.
  MR. DILLWYNalso consented to withdraw his Notice.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY—COMMITTEE.
  Supply,—considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)

  CIVIL SERVICE SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATES 1878–9.

    Class III.—LAW AND JUSTICE.
    (1.) £350, Wreck Commission.
    (2.) £19,723, County Courts.
    (3.) £426, Metropolitan Police.
    (4.) £3,500, County Prisons, &c., Great Britain.
    MR. SULLIVANhoped that the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, or the Under Secretary, would be able to say what progress was being made in remedying the present defective arrangements as to the appointment of Catholic Chaplains to all prisons. He (Mr. Sullivan) moved the other day for a Return showing what prisons in this country, having 50 Catholic prisoners and upwards, had Catholic Chaplains attached to them. Unfortunately, at the present moment, he had not that information in his possession, and he had not the remotest idea of proposing that this Vote should be postponed on that account, although he thought that if he had to make that application, it would not be an unreasonable one. He should like the Under Secretary to be able to state, as far as he knew at present, what would be the answer contained in the Return he (Mr. Sullivan) had moved for. In Ireland, if there were even five prisoners belonging to the Dissenting or Church of England denomination there was a Chaplain of their particular persuasion attached to the prison in which they were confined. In no part of Ireland was such a thing known as a prison being without a Chaplain of the various religious denominations. In England that was not so, for there were many prisons in England in which there were upwards of 50 Catholic prisoners, to which no salary was provided for a
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    Catholic Chaplain, if he was correctly informed. He had had to do with the government of prisons in which they had not even one Dissenter or Presbyterian for over three months together; nevertheless, at the end of every half-year that he sat as a member of that governing board he voted in favour of a salary for a Presbyterian Chaplain for those prisons. He thought it very hard when he crossed the Channel that he should find that the same measure of justice was not meted out to his coreligionists. He did not wish to raise a lengthy discussion upon the question at the present time, because he hoped he should have the opportunity of raising the question at a subsequent period. But he did feel that Her Majesty's Government should endeavour to provide that the same measure of justice should be meted out on each side of the Channel. If he was correctly informed, there were many prisons throughout the country in which there was no religious equality, and where there was no due regard for the conscientious convictions of one section of the prisoners.
    SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEYcould not give the hon. and learned Gentleman (Mr. Sullivan) the figures he required respecting the number of Catholic Chaplains attached to the prisons of the country. The subject, however, had received the careful consideration of the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, and he believed he was right in saying that some recommendation had, within the past few days, been made to the Treasury in the matter. He hoped that when the Vote came on for the ensuing year, both the Return asked for by the hon. and learned Gentleman and a proposal with regard to the appointment of Catholic Chaplains would be in the possession of the House.
    Vote agreed to.
    (5.) £8,004, Reformatory and Industrial Schools, Great Britain.
    MR. O'REILLYwished to call the attention of the Under Secretary to the Treasury, and of the House, to a remarkable difference in the treatment, and, consequently, in the Estimates, with regard to the industrial and reformatory schools in Ireland and in England. The question might very opportunely be

    1323
    raised on this Supplementary Estimate. The Acts of Parliament in both countries—in fact, in the three countries of England, Ireland, and Scotland—were alike, for they stated that the "Treasury may grant such sums to these institutions as they shall approve." The words, of course, were the same in all similar cases—"the Treasury may," and those words were generally understood, as pointed out by the Chief Justice in Court the other day, in general cases to be obligatory, except there be reason for the contrary. In the Acts of Parliament there was no limitation as to the number of children that should be placed in reformatory or industrial schools; but the magistrates or the other committing authorities, in the exercise of their own discretion, committed children to such schools, and then the payment for such children upon a regulated scale became practically obligatory upon the Treasury. Consequently, the Treasury made an estimate as to the number of children that was likely to be committed annually, and then came down with a proposal that a certain sum should be voted towards the expenses of the schools. If it turned out, as it had done this year, that the sum taken was insufficient—that the number of children committed was larger than was expected, a Supplementary Estimate such as the present was taken. What had been the course pursued in Ireland? He at once wished to state frankly what he knew to be the real meaning of it. It was considered that the number of children committed to industrial and reformatory schools in Ireland was increasing very largely. Certainly, there was an increase, and there was also an increase in England; and it was stated by the Gentlemen representing the Irish Government that an increased amount would be required to be voted. It was then considered how the number of children could be checked. The Government had no power to interfere with the discretion of the magistrates in committing children to the schools, but another course was found. It was determined not to allow any more children to be committed to industrial and reformatory schools, and the course was taken of refusing to certify any additional schools, or any additional accommodation, unless the Government wished to apply to Parliament for a corresponding increase in the amount of
    1324
    the Vote. The consequence was, that he put a series of Questions to the Chief Secretary for Ireland last year, and, in the shape of replies, obtained a good deal of useful information. Unfortunately, he had not got those answers in his possession at the present time, for he had not expected that this Vote would be taken to-night; but it was perfectly clear from those answers, that an Inspector would not certify a school unless the Government approved that some additional accommodation should be certified. The result of the present state of affairs had been that the number of children committed to industrial and reformatory schools in Ireland was, what he ventured to call, arbitrarily limited, while it was not so in England. That was a matter which required explanation at the hands of the Government. He always wished to be perfectly frank with the House, and, therefore, never concealed any knowledge he had in his possession. He wished at once to say that there was something, as there generally was, to be said on the other side. The fact was this—The rate of payment for children, which was originally fixed upon by the Treasury to be paid in England, was 5s. per head, per week. The same rate was subsequently fixed upon for Ireland. When the number was found to be largely increasing in England, and it was considered doubtful whether Parliament would be willing to meet so large a demand, Parliament agreed to reduce the rate, he thought, to 3s. 6d. per head per week. Then the question arose, whether the action of the Treasury should be the same in Ireland as in England, and whether a similar reduction should take place? He did not exactly know what the decision had been. He rather thought that in England the case stood thus—That children committed previous to the reduction were still paid at the rate of 5s. per head, and that recent committals were paid at the rate of 3s. 6d. per head. Whether such applied to Ireland he did not know. He believed that the rate there continued at 5s., and that this was given as a reason why a different system was applied in Ireland than in England. Whatever might be the opinion of others, he at once frankly argued that it was not a sound or constitutional principle to act upon. He did not say now that the rate in Ireland should be reduced, because it

    1325
    had been reduced in England; but he did say that it was an unsound and unconstitutional doctrine that it should depend upon the discretion of the Government whether an Act of Parliament was to be put in force so that a totally different system should be applied in Ireland to England. He wished to point out to hon. Gentlemen the objection to such a system prevailing. It ended—whatever were the good intentions of the Government—it ended in the objectional form of personal government. New schools were not to be certified, and no new children admitted, unless the consent of the Government, in a formal and regular manner, was previously obtained—unless the consent of the Irish Government, or, in other words, that of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, was obtained. What did this lead to? If in England an industrial school was desired, the parties came forward and the money was supplied. In Ireland it was a matter of favour. Persons came up from the locality to urge upon the authorities the necessity of establishing a school in the district from which they came. He did not say that political influence had anything to do with it, but, as a matter of fact, Members of Parliament were asked to exert themselves; and it became a question of personal influence whether such a school was to be sanctioned or not. He thought English Members would sympathize with him when he said that this was not the way an Act of Parliament should be administered. A rule should be laid down which should apply impartially, and the same system should be put in force in the two countries. What he wished the Secretary to the Treasury to tell him was, whether, in substance, what he had stated was correct; and, if so, whether it was by the direction of the Treasury, or by that of the Lord Lieutenant, or, in fact, by whose direction it was that a different system was applied in Ireland to that in England?
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONadmitted that the distinction, which the hon. Member (Mr. O'Reilly) had pointed out, did, in the main, exist between the mode of dealing with industrial schools in this country and in Ireland. The payments to industrial schools in this country, previous to 1872, were laid in the following rates:—For children from 6to 10 years of age, 3s. per head per week
    1326
    was paid; for children from 10 to 15 years, 5s. per head per week; and then for any children over 15 years of age, if they had been four years in the school, there was payment made at the reduced rate of 3s. per head per week. After 1872, the middle payment was reduced, as the hon. Member had stated, from 5s. to 3s. 6d.; and at the present moment the rates of payment were 3s. for the first class of children, 3s. 6d. for the second class, and 3s. as before for those over 15, years, having been in the school four years. Now, with regard to Ireland, there was no distinction made between the different classes of children, for each child certified as in the school was paid for at the rate of 5s. per head per week. A difference, however, existed in the mode of receiving applications for the establishment of industrial schools. In England the voluntary effort was very general, and in most cases local effort started those schools. An application for a new school must be made to the Treasury. An Inspector of the Home Office was sent down to the district from whence the application proceeded, and his duty was to certify as to the efficiency of the proposed school, and upon that the Government contribution was paid according to the usual rate. In respect to Ireland, where the amount was larger, a very different system prevailed. In that country, up to the present time, it had been the practice for each school to be sanctioned only on the authority of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, with the consent of the Treasury, and he could only imagine that the power was reserved in order to limit the number of children. As to the limitation of the number of schools, the effect of the reduction in the rate of payment in England had practically been to check the increase of industrial schools, and for several years after 1872, the hon. Member (Mr. O'Reilly) would find that the increase of these schools was practically nil. The practical result in both countries was about the same; the reduction in the contribution for children between 10 and 15 years of age having checked the increase in the number of industrial schools in England in pretty much the same way as the official veto in Ireland. He confessed that, individually, he would like to see the industrial schools in the two countries placed on the same basis. He believed

    1327
    that the object of these industrial schools being a reduction of our criminal population especially, it was undesirable on the part of Parliament to throw undue impediments in the way of the establishments of such schools whenever there was a proper demand for them. At the same time, he must point out that they found that they did not always get that class of children who were certainly fit and proper subjects for them. It had been a little too much the practice, especially since school boards had been established, to treat almost all children as waifs and strays, and send them to industrial schools. In England there was always an endeavour to see that the State assistance was properly supplemented by local effort. Local effort was a good criterion of the necessity of such establishments, and when it came in in sufficient amount it showed that the locality was properly exerting itself in the interest of the reformation of these children, and the result was very salutary. He should be glad to consider with his right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary for Ireland any proposal for placing the industrial schools in Ireland on the same footing as they were treated in the sister country. At the same time, he believed that the State had already undertaken sufficient obligation in respect to these institutions. If local effort accomplished as much, proportionately speaking, in Ireland as in England, he should see no reason for the limitation of which the hon. Member complained.
    MR. MACARTNEYobserved, that if the result of the hon. Member's (Mr. O'Reilly's) intervention in the matter was the assimilation of the system adopted in respect to industrial schools in the two countries, he hoped that great care would be taken that encouragement would not be given to a certain class of persons to have their children educated at the expense of the public. In many places, he saw that this practice had been carried out very extensively, and it had proved dangerous to the country and to society. A great deal of interest was excited on this subject, and in Belfast complaints had been very properly made concerning the course taken by some people. He recommended that the grants should not be such as to iuduce people to cause their children to be sent to industrial and reformatory
    1328
    schools, so that they might receive their education at the expense of the public.
    MR. A. MOOREwished to say a word or two as to the arbitrary manner in which this money was given or withheld by the Irish Goverment. He remembered on one occasion when a boy was ordered to be sent to an industrial school there was not to be found a single school in Ireland to take him in. The Government money was exhausted, and the schools could take no more children. On the one hand, there were the magistrates sending children to the schools, and on the other hand, there were the schools unable to receive them. The law was thus brought to a dead-lock; but he was bound to add that, through the courtesy of the present Chief Secretary for Ireland, whose attention he personally called to the case, and who took compassion upon it, the child was ultimately got into a school, because the right hon. Gentleman ordered him to be received. But still, he thought it was a most strange deadlock, that the Treasury should come into collision with the Act of Parliament in this way, and prevent its being carried out. Now, with regard to the cutting down of the resources of these schools in the shape of the Government grant. He thought that it was most desirable that people should be accustomed to meet the Treasury grants with local contributions. That was perfectly right and just, and, he should like to see the practice in this respect assimilated in both countries. But the Committee must remember that unless they assimilated the law of England and Ireland on that point, they could not get the children kept in Ireland out of a Treasury grant of 3s. 6d. In this country they gave the Treasury grant to that amount, and they also empowered three or four local bodies to vote money in assistance of that Treasury grant; but there was no such power in Ireland. When a Bill was brought in last year, which would have enabled Boards of Guardians to make some contribution, as was done in England, it was blocked in the most effectual manner, and thus that opportunity was lost of giving aid to the repression of juvenile crime.
    MR. SULLIVANsaid, he had heard the observation made that these institutions ought not to be so nursed and cherished. He would remind the Com-

    1329
    mittee that there was a power under the Act to compel the parents to contribute, and, therefore, if that was neglected to be enforced by the parish to which the child belonged, surely it was not the fault of the Act of Parliament?
    MR. O'REILLYwished to have an explanation as to the part of the Act of Parliament under which this discretion was supposed to be exercised. So far as he could see, the wording of the two Acts for the two countries was identically the same, and he had never been able to understand what was the difference. He was quite aware that both Acts ran with the word "may," and he should like to know what necessary difference there was between them? He thought the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. A. Moore) had furnished the House with a perfect example of the evils to which he (Mr. O'Reilly) had previously alluded, when he told them that he had to make the admission of a child a personal matter with the Chief Secretary. Attempts were made long ago to exercise this discretion. Instructions were given to the magistrates not to send children to reformatory schools, unless those schools were certified; but, fortunately, that broke down. He really wished, in the first place, to have this arbitrary power on the part of the Treasury done away with. He knew it was very difficult to establish a perfect assimilation of practice; but nothing was more indefensible than the great difference of practice which at present existed. Would it not be possible to say they should receive the old rate of five shillings?
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, there was this distinction between the two countries, that in the case of the Irish schools the grants were made at the same high rate as formerly, and the change which took place in 1872 only affected the middle class of ages. At the same time, he would consider the suggestions which had been made.
    COLONEL COLTHURSTpointed out, that there was no local body in Ireland who were empowered to give grants for building purposes, as in England. It had hitherto been usual for Grand Juries to give an increased payment to the schools, on the ground that they had been left entirely to their own resources, and were entitled to be recouped, some, at least, of their expenditure; but he
    1330
    was sorry to say that, during the last few years, there had been attempts made on the part of nearly every Grand Jury in Ireland to very much reduce these grants, and some Grand Juries had refused to give anything at all. Therefore, the managers of industrial schools in Ireland were at a great disadvantage, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would take that matter into his consideration.
    MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he thought the county which the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Colthurst) represented was one of those to which he had referred as refusing the grant. With regard to the remarks of the hon. Member for Longford (Mr. O'Reilly), he must remind him that the discretion which was exercised under the Act with respect to the certifying of these schools had no connection with the financial branch of the subject. He understood, moreover, that there was no Irish Vote before the Committee, so that he believed they were out of Order in continuing the discussion.
    MR. HIBBERTsaid, he wished to call attention to a difficulty which Boards of Guardians had experienced in consequence of the working of the Prisons Act, and it was this—There was considerable doubt as to whether they could legally pay for the maintenance of children who were sent to reformatory schools. He wished to know, whether the Home Office had taken any legal opinion on that matter, which had previously been mentioned in the House; and, if an opinion had been obtained, he should be glad to learn what it was? If the Secretary of State could enlighten the Committee upon the subject, he believed it would satisfy the local authorities of the country upon the question. For his own part, he did not see much difference between a boy or girl who was sent to a reformatory, and a prisoner who was sent to one of Her Majesty's prisons; but it appeared that a boy or girl who was sent to prison for a month, and then to a reformatory for three or four years, would be paid for by the State during the month he or she was imprisoned, and then the moment he went to a reformatory part of the cost of maintenance was paid by the State and part by the local authority. Well, it seemed to him that if there were any doubt upon the question as to whether the State

    1331
    should not pay the whole expense, it was very desirable that that doubt should be set at rest.
    SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEYsaid, the opinion of the Law Officers had been taken upon the subject. That was, he believed, to the effect that the local authorities were liable for the maintenance of children in reformatory schools. There were one or two other points concerned, and if the hon. Member would make a detailed inquiry on the Report, he would be ready to give him a definite answer.
    MR. BIGGARsaid, there was one matter which he wished to mention to the Government. The manager of an industrial school in Belfast made a very great complaint of the way in which he was curtailed by the Chief Secretary as to his capacity for getting his school filled properly. The complaint was this—There was an enormous demand for admission into that place, and the manager did not like to turn any children away if he could avoid doing so. The consequence was that he received a very much larger number than he got a grant for, and he (Mr. Biggar) thought it was a question which might be very fairly asked of the Government as to what extent and under what conditions they would give a grant for every child who was admitted, instead of limiting the number, and then they might lower the rate, perhaps, to a level. Because, the practical result of the present system was this—that the small number which the Government would allow in the Vote was far less than it ought to be. He thought these schools ought to be enabled to maintain themselves a little above the standard of the workhouse, inasmuch as children required a special training, and ought to have a chance given them of making a good start in the world. On the other hand, if the grant were made too high, there would be a tendency on the part of the Grand Juries to cut down the number, which they had the power to do, and to make the admission more or less a matter of privilege; and thus special privileges would be given to special parents, and the class which needed it the most would not, in a great many cases, get admission into these schools. He would really press upon the Government the desirability of not limiting the number of children who should be admitted into those reformatories, and of
    1332
    giving the managers an opportunity of giving the advantage of that education to all who required it. He thought it would be a good thing to make a claim upon the Board of Guardians for a small proportion of the support of the children; and in that way the practical result would be, that instead of living a life of pure idleness in workhouses, if they went into a reformatory for three years, and were trained as he knew they were trained in those institutions, the children would prove decent members of society, and would not be half so likely to become permanent burdens upon the ratepayers.
    Vote agreed to.
    (6). £10,000, Magistrates and Miscellaneous Legal Charges, Ireland.
    MR. WHITWELLsaid, he wished to ask the Secretary to the Treasury, if he could inform the Committee whether this present amount was the normal amount of the grant, and would be the same in future? He knew that, in conquence of the alteration in the law, there must be a large supplementary addition en this occasion; but he hoped that part of it was only temporary, and that the sum total of £15,920 would not all be required in future. Perhaps the hon. Gentleman would inform the Committee how the matter stood?
    SIR HENEY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, he could hardly hold out to the hon. Member any hope that there would be any diminution in the number and expenses included in this Vote—expenses which, as the hon. Member was aware, had come into operation in consequence of a recent Act of Parliament. In addition, however, he would remind the Committee, that the receipts for fees would in general more than cover expenses; and, therefore, they might look forward in Ireland, as they might in similar cases in this country, to a satisfactory working of this particular Act. The effect of it would be, that the receipts for fees would more than cover the salaries paid.
    MR. BIGGARremarked, that he now saw the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General for Ireland in his place, and he should like to ask him a question connected with the Vote. He had two or three questions to mention in connection with the Vote. The first question was as to the very large in-

    1333
    crease in the payments to the Clerks of the Peace and the other officials in that department. It seemed to be three times as much, or, at any rate, twice as much, as in the original Estimates. The next question was with regard to registrars. The sum estimated for registrars was nil, but in the Supplementary Vote there were two classes of registrars. There appeared in the entries, a "remuneration registrar" and "allowance registrar," and he begged to know what was the difference between them? Another thing he should like to know was, upon what principle those gentlemen were paid, because he believed that in the County Courts Bill last Session an arrangement was made as to what compensation should be given to the registrars? He wished to put that question to the Government, and there was some curiosity on the part of the Irish public as to how those gentlemen were paid, and how much each one received.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (MR. GIBSON)said, he could very readily explain the two points which had been referred to by the hon. Member for Cavan. These Votes were really part of a series of Votes which would have to be taken to carry into effect a very useful Act of Parliament, passed in the year 1877, and called the County Officers and Courts Bill. That Act provided, amongst other things, that the two offices, which were previously held in each county in Ireland of Clerk of the Crown and Clerk of the Peace, should be united. These two officers used to be paid under an old, rather vicious system of fees, and they also used to be allowed to appoint deputies. A very substantial reform had, however, been established, and it had been provided that there should be no new officers appointed whenever vacancies occured; that these offices should be united; and that, instead of there being two officers in each county, there should be only one office, to be called the United Office of Clerk of the Crown and Peace; that that officer, instead of receiving fees, should receive a certain fixed salary, which should be paid out of the Votes, and that the Exchequer should receive the benefit of the fees; so that for the first time, whenever an office of this kind fell vacant, and was filled up in pursuance of the provision in the Act of Parlia-
    1334
    ment, it came upon the Votes, but the Treasury would receive concurrently the fees that used to be received by these officers. At the commencement of last year there were only two of these offices united, but up to the present time there had, he believed, occurred nine or ten vacancies, so that, as he had already pointed out, the more the Estimates appeared to increase, it might be taken that there was a greater gain to the country, because the fees received by the country were far in excess of the salaries which appeared on the Votes. With regard to the allowance for registrars, they were entirely new officers who were appointed in pursuance of an unanimous and stringent recommendation of a Select Committee, which was composed mainly of Irish Members. They insisted that the County Court Judges in Ireland, to whom had been given an enlarged jurisdiction, should have the assistance of registrars; but at the commencement of the last financial year none of these officers had been appointed, and no provision had been made for their payment. To begin with, a temporary arrangement was made in the course of the year that these officers should be appointed, and, as the amount of their labours was not clearly ascertained, that they should be paid provisionally two guineas for every day they were obliged to attend in Court during the sitting of the County Court Judge, with an additional guinea a-day for their travelling expenses. That was the answer to the Questions which had been put to him by the hon. Member.
    GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURsaid, the fees received were not shown in the Estimates. The Chief Secretary for Ireland said that the fees would be very large, and would cover all the expenses of the Courts; but he could not find these expenses set down in the Estimates.
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, the new Rule had only just come into force, and, therefore, last year, they were not able to calculate what amount of fees they would receive.
    MR. BIGGARasked, who appointed the registrars? Formerly, the duties now performed by the registrars, was performed by the Clerk of the Peace or the County Clerk, so that in reality, though they were said to have two offices amalgamated, they had a now office

    1335
    created. Formerly, he believed, the Lord Lieutenant had the appointment.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. GIBSON)replied, that the whole provision with reference to the appointment of registrars, their duties, and qualifications was contained in the 10th section of the Act. It was there stated that the appointment of registrar should be made by the Chairman, or the County Court Judge, subject to the approval of the Lord Chancellor; and then there was a very distinct sub-section, which stated that every person so appointed should be an attorney or solicitor, and so on.
    Vote agreed to.

    Class IV.—EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART.
    (7.) £106,000, Public Education, England and Wales.
    MR. CHAMBERLAINobserved, that he did not rise to oppose the Vote, for he thought it must be a matter of satisfaction to the country that the number of children under education, and entitled to receive the grant, had considerably exceeded the estimate. He wanted to call the attention of the Vice President of the Council to the determination that had been come to with reference to the Birmingham School Board. That Board had been informed that the grant would be withdrawn, unless the female teachers in the young boys' school were replaced by male teachers. These female teachers had been employed hitherto as an experiment, which had answered very well. In Birmingham they found considerable difficulty in obtaining sufficient qualified male teachers for their schools, and as their expenses were very rapidly increasing, therefore, they were anxious to try the effect of substituting female teachers, who were paid at a lower rate. They had been tried in the best schools in the United States, and on the Continent, and had succeeded. He did not know on what ground the discretion of the Board had been thus rudely interfered with. It was only one of the many attempts to exercise local discretion which seemed to be resented by the Education Department. The Council in London was apparently actuated by a desire to cut them all down to one length, the effect of which would shortly be that they would have a
    1336
    system giving them as little discretion as that in Prussia.
    LORD GEORGE HAMILTONsaid, he did not know this question was going to be raised, or he would have brought down the correspondence on the subject; but, so far as he remembered, the Birmingham School Board asked leave to try the experiment of substituting a certain number of female teachers for male teachers in the boys' schools. The Education Department objected, as there was a strong objection to the employment of female teachers in boys' schools. ["Why?"] The objection was not a very pleasant one to state; but, as a rule, these teachers were young, and they were brought into connection with the master, and were under his sole control. There had been more than one case brought under the notice of the Department in which immorality had resulted. Therefore, he thought the Education Department had acted wisely in the way they had done. He was aware that many school boards complained of the way in which the Education Department interpreted the Code of the Rules; but they were bound to see that those Rules were adhered to, or else they were surcharged by the Audit Department. The particular case of the Birmingham School Board was very carefully considered, though he was aware that that Board did not concur in the validity of the objections raised. The Council had not the least desire to discourage the appointment of women as teachers in infants, girls, or mixed schools.
    MR. MUNDELLAconsidered the answer of the noble Lord eminently unsatisfactory. Throughout the whole of the United States, and in Switzerland, the younger boys, and some of even rather mature growth, were admirably taught by females. It was found that they taught boys up to 10 or 11 even better than young men, the labour, of course, being performed at about one-half the rate. Birmingham was, therefore, doing very great service by trying this experiment, and he thought the Education Department was far too rigid, and far too much given to discountenancing anything in the way of improvement. He hoped the noble Lord would permit Birmingham to try the experiment on behalf of the country, and if it succeeded, would let it be tried elsewhere. The school boards were

    1337
    trying everywhere to get the best education at the smallest possible rate; and to discourage this experiment, at a time when there was so many complaints of the cost of education, seemed to him to be most unwise.
    MR. A. MILLSknew something about the United States, and he should not like to see our educational standard lowered to their level. Though he admitted that we had much to learn, in regard to the quality of the teachers, yet he should be sorry to think that the education given at the London School Board was not very considerably superior to the average elementary teaching in the United States. He believed the tendency now-a-days was to extend the employment of female teachers rather than to restrict it, and he hoped that would not be carried too far. If any alteration were made, he hoped care would be taken to reduce the undue strain at present placed in too many instances on young female pupil teachers.
    MR. M'LARENsaid this employment of female teachers for young boys was spoken of as though it were an experiment; but he might mention to the House that the system had been in operation in the most successful school in the United Kingdom—that was to say, the best school measured by the test of results. It obtained the largest amount of grants, and he did not know any better test than that. In Gillespie's school in Edinburgh, belonging to the Merchant Company, there were over 1,300 pupils, and the grant earned last year was over £1,000, and it had been so for some years. That school was mainly taught by young women. Nine-tenths of the teachers were women, and the children were certainly well taught. Now, if that was the result of the working of the system in the most successful school in the Kingdom, why should this red-tapeism be applied to Birmingham to prevent the employment of female teachers? He was surprised to hear an hon. Gentleman opposite, a member of the London School Board, say that they would bring the education in this country down to the level of the United States. Some time ago, a gentleman was sent to America by the Government to report upon the state of the schools there. That gentleman was Dr. Fraser, now the Bishop of Manchester, and the Report he wrote was published as a Blue Book.
    1338
    Bishop Eraser there stated that the schools in America were mainly taught by women, and that, in his opinion, the teaching given in that country was equal to any given in this country, and in many cases was much better.
    COLONEL BARNEsaid, as a rural ratepayer, he thought the education given to the labourers' children was rather too high. He hoped the Government would do all in their power to keep down the expenses of the school boards. At present, they were advancing by leaps and bounds; and if they went much further, the time would come, especially under the present depressed condition of agriculture, when the ratepayers would be unable to pay the rates at all. In the rural districts, also, they had great difficulty in obtaining mistresses, and though they offered very high wages, were sometimes unable to get one for months at a time. In consequence, they lost the school grants. He wished to ask the noble Lord, whether there was any chance of the supply equalling the demand?
    MR. R. E. PLUNKETTsaid, he had paid great attention to this subject, and he did not think it would be satisfactorily settled until they imported three or four hundred of these American teachers. He hoped the Department would do nothing, but would allow the experiment of employing properly-trained women teachers to be applied in any part of the country. If they adopted the system pursued in America of training girls from their earliest years in the normal schools, where they learnt to teach as they were themselves being educated, and thus acquired the habit of authority, much advantage would result. He must say, he certainly never heard there of any such difficulty about immorality as the noble Lord had suggested.
    MR. DILLWYNunderstood the noble Lord to speak of immorality only in cases where the boys were taught alone. He did not see, however, that there was any great difference between the two systems, and he hoped the noble Lord would reconsider his statement.
    MR. CHAMBERLAINalso hoped the noble Lord would re-consider the matter. It was, in his opinion, most unsatisfactory to insist upon this absolute rigidity in the Rules. The Birmingham School Board had been overruled by the Depart-

    1339
    ment on technical, and he would venture to say on unreasonable, grounds. Unless he was mistaken also, at the time the correspondence took place, the Department did not put forward this possible immorality as a ground for refusing their sanction, but simply said that the female teachers should not be employed in the boys' school. They had been given an unreasonable answer, and he did not think that of the noble Lord was much more reasonable. Although it might be true that there had been some cases of immorality, yet he might point out to the noble Lord that in all probability they were not entirely due to the fact that men and women taught together in the day-time in a large building called a school. If it were to be laid down as an inexorable rule in all legislation that the sexes were to be entirely separated, how did the noble Lord explain the fact that they were allowed to work together in the Post Office and Telegraph Departments? He believed that no imputations of immorality were made against that branch of the Civil Service, and he could not understand why a mixture of the sexes which have been allowed there should not be allowed in the case of board schools.
    LORD GEORGE HAMILTONreplied, that the correspondence on this particular subject took place three or four months ago, and as he was not aware the subject was going to be brought up that evening, he was not prepared to go into all the details on the subject. But if the hon. Gentleman would call at the Education Office, he would be very glad to talk the matter over with him. The Birmingham School Board proposed to try young female teachers in boys' schools, and it was felt that it would not be wise to allow that, especially as they would be entirely under the control of a man, who might not be a married man. As to the supply of teachers, the number of persons passing through the training colleges was annually increasing, and he hoped that in the course of time that increase would be found useful.
    Vote agreed to.
    (8.) £210, London University.
    (9.) £16,984, Paris International Exhibition.
    SIR JULIAN GOLDSMIDsaid, last year, when this Vote was before the Committee, they had some conversation
    1340
    about it, and he asked his right hon. Friend (Mr. Lyon Play fair), whether he thought the amount then stated to be required would be very largely exceeded? He pointed out at that time, and it was admitted by the Government, that the amounts voted for previous Exhibitions had been enormously exceeded, and that such a practice was not conducive to economy or to carefulness in management. His right hon. Friend then replied, that every care would be taken by the Committee, of which he was the head, to see that the expenditure was properly regulated. He (Sir Julian Goldsmid) found that the total expenditure was £66,980, which was nearly £17,000 in excess of the amount originally intended to be spent. He was aware that the Commission, on getting to work in Paris, learnt that the French Government did not intend to pay for several things which had been supplied on other occasions by the country where the Exhibition was held. As far as he was able to say, the general management of the English section gave satisfaction to both the exhibitors and the public; but, at the same time, he thought it was well that the right hon. Gentleman should give the Committee some details with regard to exactly how the expenditure was incurred, and also, if he could do so without inconvenience, some account of the general results of the Exhibition, so far as the Commission was concerned.
    SIR ROBERT PEELthought this was a matter which required the serious consideration of the Government. Two or three years ago, when this Vote was asked for, a distinct and definite pledge was given by the Government that £50,000 would be the extreme limit of the expense incurred. In 1876–7, £800 was voted; in 1877–8, the bulk of the money; and now they were asked to vote nearly £17,000 more. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was invited to become the Chairman of the Finance Committee, but that, of course, was impossible with his numerous duties in the House. However he undertook, though he declined to act as Chairman, that the Treasury should keep the Commission within the bounds of the Vote. Later on the Government were asked if the Vote would be exceeded, and they replied that there was no need for it to be exceeded. Last year they were told

    1341
    that out of the funds the Commission had granted £100 to assist English artizans to visit the Exhibition; but the Irish Members, when they asked about the subject, were told, in reference to Irish artizans, that the amount expended could not be increased, owing to the limited sum of money voted to them. Therefore, and on that ground, the Royal Commission declined to advance any money to assist Irish artizans to visit the Exhibition. Yet they had had now nearly £17,000 asked for in excess on account of this Exhibition. If the Government knew there was going to be this excess, they ought to have told them so last year. What did they find this money was chiefly expended upon?—the rent of offices, and the construction of premises within the area, as he supposed, of the Exhibition itself. He did wish to impress upon the Government the necessity of making some explanation of this Vote.
    MR. LYON PLAYFAIRquite agreed that an explanation was required, and that the Committee was entitled to ask for it. The House would recollect that the Finance Committee was formed of persons of great experience, including the hon. Baronet the Member for Aylesbury (Sir Nathanial de Rothschild), and the hon. Baronet the Member for Lisburn (Sir Richard Wallace), besides other gentlemen outside the House, who were eminent as financiers, including Sir John Rose, Mr. Rivers Wilson, and other gentlemen. He had the honour of being Chairman of the Committee, and when the Government proposed a grant of £50,000, as the full estimate for the Exhibition, he thought it was a moderate sum, but hoped, from his experience of past Exhibitions, it would be enough for the purpose. They found that at Philadelphia 187,000 square feet was all the space that was required by British exhibitors, and almost the same amount at Vienna. Therefore, estimating that about the same space would be required at Paris, they thought that the amount voted was sufficient, and that £50,000 might with economy be a sufficient sum to ask for. But when they came to have a Royal President in the person of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, who acted most admirably throughout the Exhibition, throwing his great influence into the management, the demands of exhibitors increased enor-
    1342
    mously. Five times as many exhibitors asked for space as could be accommodated, and 383,000 square feet were allotted to the fifth of the number of would-be contributors. The Commissioners were obliged, in consequence, to build new sheds and large annexes. In doing this, the exhibitors gave great help, and without their aid it would have been impossible to bring this matter to a successful issue. He would give one illustration in proof of that aid which had consequently enabled the Commission to carry out the arrangements with such moderation and economy. Part of the scheme of the Exhibition was to have an international street, and, unfortunately for herself, England was obliged to build three houses. All the nations spent money very vigorously in erecting characteristic houses. Belgium, for instance, spent £8,000 on her representative national house. We spent no less than £25,000 upon ours; but of that sum the exhibitors gave over £23,000, and only £1,800 was required to make up the amount from the national funds. In other countries also, at other Exhibitions, the Government had supplied the labour for packing and unpacking; in Philadelphia, for instance, the American Government bore the whole expense. But in France that was not so, and, in consequence, the Commissioners were obliged to employ a large number of workmen, the item for labour being no inconsiderable one in their accounts. Again, the Fine Arts Department became, owing to the stimulus given to the Exhibition by the hearty co-operation of the Prince of Wales, of the greatest importance, and it was necessary to spend £3,300 to insure the valuable collection of pictures. That outlay had not been anticipated. Mentioning these facts, he would leave the House to decide whether they had not been most careful in their expenditure. He had had some experience of these Commissions, for he had acted on nearly all of them. In the French Exhibition of 1867 the arrangements were carried out under direct Ministerial responsibility, the Board of Trade carrying out the administrative details, while the Treasury looked very carefully after the items. At that time £123,000 was spent in an Exhibition which was acknowledged to be far inferior to that of 1878. Had that Exhibition been on

    1343
    the same scale as the present one, the cost in the same ratio would have been £170,000. The recent Exhibition had produced results which were most creditable to the nation, and most satisfactory to the exhibitors, and had also produced a feeling of unanimity and harmony between the two nations which was quite remarkable, with an expenditure of only £67,000. He thought, after the explanation he had given, it would be seen, that without the active co-operation of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales, and the vigour with which he inspired the exhibitors by the energy which he threw into the work himself, they could not have produced so great a result, and that the expenditure they had incurred was really very small indeed.
    MR. SAMPSON LLOYDsaid, it was always unsatisfactory when an Estimate was exceeded; but, in this case, he thought the circumstances stated ought to make the House well content to vote this money, remembering the great results which had been achieved. No one, he was sure, who had seen former Exhibitions, and who carefully examined the arrangements of this one, could fail to be convinced that this one was better managed, better organized, and far more likely to produce beneficial results in the direction intended—the benefit of civilization and art. It must be remembered that all the jurors in this instance paid their own expenses, and that a great deal of gratuitous labour was given in the Exhibition. In particular, His Royal Highness the President gave an enormous amount of time to the case, and he thought the greatest credit was due to him for labour which made the Exhibition so productive to the exhibitors, and produced an amount of enthusiasm which otherwise would never have been evoked. Another point was, that the Secretary to the Committee was paid much less than on former occasions. In 1867 the Secretary received half as much annual salary again as was paid to the present Secretary, and yet he also received, during the four years he was in office, he did not say that he did not deserve it, £3,000 for extra labour. Sir Philip Owen had received only £300 extra for all the hospitality and personal expenses incidental to this work, and, considering the great amount of time he devoted to the matter, he was sure that was no great amount of extravagance.
    MR. MUNDELLAsaid, £100 was voted to send artizans to the Exhibition, but a much larger sum of money was furnished by voluntary subscription, and Ireland had her full share of the total amount raised. He himself had the pleasure of nominating some of the Irishmen who were sent to Paris, and he could assure the House that no favour was shown to anyone, and that they knew no distinction so long as the men were representative artizans. He should like to add that he thought the French Exhibition was one of the most creditable things to us, as an industrial nation, that had taken place for many many years. At a time when there was a good deal of croaking, and when people were everywhere saying fallacious things about the decline of England, it never was more clearly necessary that Englishmen should show their power still to hold their own against the world. There never was so much voluntary effort as on this occasion, and the amount of self-sacrifice on all hands was more than could have been expected. Every Commissioner, for instance, paid all his own expenses, and did not have so much as a biscuit at the expense of the Committee. The Jurors also staid for a month or five weeks in Paris, and received nothing whatever but the letter of thanks which His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales sent to each. England never did anything so cheap, and she never did anything so well, as she had done at this Exhibition. This was due mainly to the energy and spirit which His Royal Highness threw into the matter. He must say that, though he did not want to pay compliments where everybody was complimenting, everyone who went there could see the effect the influence of the Prince of Wales had in bringing about a thorough good understanding between the two nations. They all knew the recognition which his heartiness and bon-hommie received from the French exhibitors and the French merchants. He believed the money laid out at the Exhibition was well spent, quite apart from the high position England took as a manufacturing country. What would have been the result, if England had taken a bad position at the Exhibition, at a time when they were closely run by other nations, and every country was claiming that it could do things better than England?

    1345
    The thing was done well, it was done cheap, and the whole affair was creditable to everybody.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: It is not in the least necessary, after what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Lyon Play fair) and others, to add any testimony as to the extremely satisfactory way in which the work of the Exhibition was carried out. That is a matter of absolute notoriety, and it is really quite unnecessary for me to say one word on the subject. What I rather rose to say is, that I can bear my own personal testimony, not only to the zeal of His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales and the efficient manner in which he conducted the work, but also to the extreme desire he displayed from the first to keep down the expenditure. At the commencement, His Royal Highness expected that £60,000 would be sufficient, and it was his ardent desire to keep the expenditure within that sum. It was only in consequence of circumstances, which could not have been foreseen at the outset, that the Commission was obliged to ask for some excess. I know, from repeated personal communications with His Royal Highness, how extremely unwilling he was to make that request; but, as he himself put it to myself and the Treasury, it was quite impossible to avoid it. There was also another circumstance, to which the right hon. Gentleman opposite has not alluded, as increasing the expenditure, and that was the unexpected prolongation of the Exhibition beyond the date originally fixed, which not only involved additional expenditure for wages and salaries, but the re-hiring of the buildings, and the re-assurance of valuable works of art which had been lent to the Commission. Other matters also arose out of the prolongation, which could not have been foreseen. I will not say anything of the way in which the whole affair was conducted; but I should be wanting in my duty as a Finance Minister, if I did not bear my very sincere and earnest testimony to the great zeal with which everyone concerned had endeavoured to keep down the expenses, first to His Royal Highness, next to my right hon. Friend, who had worked very hard as Chairman of the Committee, and also to Sir Philip Owen, who conducted the work he had to discharge to the greatest possible
    1346
    success. I think the country feels that a great debt of gratitude was due to all concerned.
    SIR JULIAN GOLDSMIDthought the explanations given perfectly satisfactory. He wished to draw one moral from what they had heard. This Exhibition, in which England was better represented than she had ever been before, and at one-half the cost, was managed throughout by a private body of gentlemen, under the guidance of the first Gentleman in the Kingdom. It was, undoubtedly, far better to encourage private effort than to have Government management.
    Vote agreed to.
    (10.) £8,746, Public Education, Ireland.

    CLASS V.

      COLONIAL, CONSULAR, AND OTHER FOREIGN SERVICES.
      (11.) £22,810, Diplomatic Services.
      MR. BOURKEsaid, there was a Motion on the Notice Paper of the hon. Member for Frome (Mr. H. Samuelson) for the reduction of the Vote by the amount of the expenses of the Inquiry into the murder of Mr. Ogle. It would, perhaps, save the time of the hon. Member, if he (Mr. Bourke) were to state that those expenses had been paid out of the Estimates of last year.
      MR. H. SAMUELSONsaid, he should be glad if the hon. Gentleman would explain what was the amount paid, and under what head it was voted?
      MR. BOURKEsaid, he could not state the precise amount of that particular Inquiry; it was included with the sums paid for other Inquiries.
      MR. H. SAMUELSONasked, Whether, under present circumstances, he could raise the question of the murder of Mr. Ogle?
      THE CHAIRMAN: The hon. Member can only raise upon this Vote a question relating to the sum proposed by the Vote, and as he is assured that it is not intended to apply any part of the money asked for in this Vote, he would not be in Order to go into that question.
      MR. H. SAMUELSONsaid, he should move a pro formâ reduction on the question of salaries, in which case he believed he should be in Order.
      SIR JULIAN GOLDSMIDventured to express his belief that the sum of

      1347
      £4,000, asked for the Eastern Roumelian Commission, would be of very little service, a fact which might be gathered from the ordinary sources of information; at the same time, he desired to know something of the opinion which the Government entertained with regard to the results of that Commission, for, as far as he had been able to ascertain, they were but "confusion worse confounded," one Commissioner having, as it was supposed, lost his life in the service; while the population declined to admit the validity of the Commission. He inquired, therefore, whether the labours of the hon. Member for Christ-church (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) had been more successful than those of his colleagues? He (Sir Julian Gold-smid) imagined that the hon. Member for Christchurch would have been of more service in the House than on this Commission, which it appeared was not at all likely to be successful, and he was very anxious to know whether the sum of £4,000 in question would cover the whole expenditure, or whether a further sum might not hereafter be asked for? Again, he would like to know how long the Commission, which, in his opinion, was a futile one, would continue; because he thought that it was an interference in the internal arrangements of another country that could only be justified upon very strong grounds. They had already seen indications that all the results of the Treaty of Berlin were not so satisfactory as they had been led to expect; but, at the present moment, they were only concerned with one particular result, and that was the Eastern Roumelian Commission. On these grounds, therefore, he thought that some information should be afforded by the Government, both with regard to the present and past expenditure of the money required.
      THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I think, Sir, the hon. Baronet (Sir Julian Goldsmid) takes rather an unusual opportunity for, I will not say criticizing, but denouncing the Treaty of Berlin, and the manner in which it is being carried into execution. No doubt, it is a very large question how far the arrangements of that Treaty, and the particular arrangement with regard to the Eastern Roumelian Commission, have been successful. But the time for that discussion has not arrived, inasmuch as
      1348
      the results are not yet complete, and are therefore not before the House. It will be remembered that the time allowed for the execution of the Treaty of Berlin has not yet elapsed, and will not do so until May; and that work is in progress which was deliberately undertaken at the Congress. When that work is complete, I am bound to say that I think it will be found that the hon. Member for Christchurch (Sir H. Drummond Wolff) has been doing excellent service to the country; and that when these results are known, they will reflect great credit upon my hon. Friend. It is quite impossible for us to enter into a discussion as to the results of the Eastern Roumelian Commission, or to speculate upon what they may be. The hon. Member says he has read a great many things about this subject, of which, of course, some may be correct and some not; but whether they are or are not correct, the work in hand is of that vast character that, until a final conclusion is reached, no judgment respecting it can possibly be formed; and to attempt this would be like looking at a scientific painting when the work of the artist is but three-parts finished, and which, although at that stage it does not promise a successful result, might be found on completion to be perfectly satisfactory. I hope the upshot of the work which is now being done by the Commission will be of a satisfactory character; but I would rather adjourn the consideration of that point to the time, which must soon arrive, when we shall be able to lay before Parliament the whole story of what has passed, and be in a position to discuss the question upon its merits. The hon. Baronet has asked whether this Vote of £4,000 will cover the whole expense to be incurred on account of the Commission? We have not, at the present moment, the means of saying what the whole cost will be. The Estimate is but a rough one, designed to cover what we suppose to be the expenditure up to the end of the present financial year; and, of course, there will be some addition for the expenses which may be incurred by the Commission from that period until the time when it comes to an end—probably about the beginning of May. I presume, however, the charge will not be of a very formidable character. I hope the Committee will not think the present a convenient season for entering

      1349
      into any discussion as to whether the Commission has or has not been successful.
      MR. W. H. JAMESsaid, he was quite prepared to wait for the fulfilment of the favourable anticipations of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, which he trusted would be realized. He had to make an inquiry of the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Bourke); and, with regard to the item of £3,000 included under letter A, desired to know whether it was a special grant to be made to Her Majesty's Ambassadors at Paris and Constantinople, and why the precise sum paid in each particular case was not stated? He had also asked a Question last Session concerning Paper 47, and would be glad to know if the right hon. Gentleman could state why that document had not Leon presented?
      MR. BOURKEsaid, that if the hon. Member would call his attention to Paper No. 47 on the following day, he would afford him every information in his power. In reply to the other Question, £2,000 had been granted to Lord Lyons, for the purpose of meeting the additional expenses incurred on account of the Embassy in connection with the Paris Exhibition'; and the remaining sum of £1,000 had been divided amongst the secretaries and employés of the Embassy at Constantinople, in consequence of the rise which had taken place in prices during the war with Russia.
      SIR JULIAN GOLDSMIDcomplained that, inasmuch as he had expressly stated that it was not his desire to raise the general issue, he had been treated with unfairness by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in the replies given to his inquiries by the right hon. Gentleman. But he had observed that such a course was often followed by Ministers in the House of Commons, where a Member of the Government often rose to say that such or such matter could not be discussed at a particular time, because it was incomplete; while if any hon. Member deferred his Motion to another period, in obedience to that suggestion, he was told it was too late to raise objection, as the whole matter was concluded. He had seen that happen many times in the course of the last 12 years; and he would mention that he had intentionally come down to the
      1350
      House for the purpose of calling attention to the expenditure then going on, and which he understood to be but a small portion of what was contemplated for the Eastern Roumelian Commission. The right hon. Gentleman, he repeated, had, in his opinion, not acted quite fairly towards him, and should bear in mind that his answer was of the unsatisfactory kind given by so many Ministers on former occasions. If he could see that any benefit would be derived by the populations affected by the Commission, he would have been willing that the money should be spent; but, as he understood, upon good authority, that they did not wish for that Commission, he felt himself justified in speaking of it as futile, and objecting to the expenditure in question.
      MR. H. SAMUELSONexpressed his surprise at the answer given by the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on the subject of the mission of Captain Sing to inquire into certain alleged outrages in Thessaly. He had put a Question to the hon. Gentleman, and endeavoured to elicit from him an answer which he could understand. And the answer received was that no such officer had been sent out. If the hon. Gentleman would refer to Hansard, he would see that he (Mr. H. Samuelson) was correct in his statement.
      MR. BOURKEsaid, he had a perfectly accurate recollection of the circumstances referred to, and of the answer given, which was to the effect that Captain Sing was not employed on the mission in question, but that he had been employed in various other capacities.
      Vote agreed to.
      (12.) £3,000, Consular Services.
      MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, that perhaps the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs would state what further inquiry was contemplated with regard to the murder of Mr. Ogle. The subject had been introduced by the hon. Member for Frome last year, who had furnished upon that occasion many arguments to show that the inquiry which at that time had taken place was both unsatisfactory and incomplete. He was of opinion that anybody who heard the speech of the hon. Member upon that occasion could come to but one conclusion, which was that

      1351
      the inquiry was incomplete, and that fact had been admitted by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who promised that another inquiry should take place as soon as the country in which the unfortunate event had occurred was in a sufficiently settled state. But there had been no further inquiry, although the district in question was in as settled a condition as the districts under Turkish rule usually were. There could, therefore, be no reason why the further inquiry should not take place, and the sooner the better, as more and more difficulty would be met with, and if it were not instituted within a reasonable time the country might never know the causes which led to the death of Mr. Ogle. He would be glad to be informed when it was contemplated to go further into the matter?
      MR. H. SAMTUELSONsaid, that after referring to Hansard, he found that he was perfectly correct in his statement with regard to Captain Sing. He had asked the hon. Gentleman, "If it is not true that Captain Sing has been sent out as a Commissioner?"—[3 Hansard, ccxlii. 1950–1.] Upon that point, he (Mr. Samuelson) happened to have some information which, although it was not necessary to state the source from which it was derived, as far as accuracy was concerned, need not be doubted. The hon. Gentleman had replied, that "All he could say was that he knew of no such Commissioner being sent." He contended that that answer was sufficient to lead him to believe that Captain Sing had not been sent out on that mission. Before quitting the subject, he begged to say that nothing could be further from his intention than to impute anything like intentional inaccuracy to the hon. Gentleman; but he was bound to say that, in putting Questions to him, he had not always been met with quite such straightforward replies as he thought himself entitled to.
      MR. BOURKEwould not delay for a moment to give his denial to the allegation made by the hon. Member. He had not the slightest right to make such a statement as that just put forward by him. He (Mr. Bourke) challenged the hon. Member, or anyone else, to contrast any Question asked upon the subject of Captain Sing's mission with the answer returned by him. He appealed to the
      1352
      House, as to whether the quotation of the hon. Member did not substantially bear out the reply which he had given to his Question, "Whether Captain Sing was going to be employed on this particular commission?"—namely, that "he knew of no such appointment." That statement was absolutely true. Captain Sing was not employed in the service to which the hon. Member referred. He had made that statement, and he distinctly repeated it now. It was, therefore, a matter of surprise that the hon. Member had thought it his duty to make the statement of which he complained, and which was absolutely contradicted by facts.
      MR. H. SAMUELSON: Will the hon. Gentleman state to what commission Captain Sing was appointed, and in what part of the world?
      MR. BOURKEsaid, that was another point entirely, and whatever answer might be given to it did not affect the question between him and the hon. Member. Captain Sing had been employed by the Government since that time on several occasions; but the Question now asked had nothing whatever to do with the controversy, and he must decline to answer it.
      MR. H. SAMUELSONsaid, he had no wish to impute to the hon. Member any motives inconsistent with his character as a Minister of the Crown, and, if by accident, he had made use of any strong expression, it was that at the moment a more suitable one did not present itself. He freely withdrew the words "not straightforward." Perhaps he should rather have said that the hon. Member's answers were not always strictly categorical. He was, however, willing to leave the whole question between himself and the hon. Gentleman to be judged of by the country. The Motion made by him (Mr. H. Samuelson) in August, 1878, was to the effect—
      "That, in the opinion of this House, Mr. Consul General Fawcett's Report upon Mr. C. C. Ogle's death is inconclusive, and that a fresh Commission of Inquiry ought to be instituted, composed of Englishmen only, who should be specially empowered to assure the witnesses of the protection of Her Majesty's Government."
      By the advice of his right hon. Friend the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) he had withdrawn the words "composed of Englishmen only." In the course of the debate, he had shown

      1353
      that the inquiry over which Mr. Consul General Fawcett presided was absolutely inconclusive, and he had also cleared the character of Mr. Ogle from imputations unjustly east upon it by Turkish and English officials. Great care was taken by him not to say anything which might be considered an attack upon Her Majesty's Government for the action taken by them in the matter; at the same time, he had quoted the opinion of an impartial observer, the correspondent of The Standard newspaper, who said that—
      "The impression upon himself, obliged to be present at the inquiry, was painful, for he felt that a prostitution of the British name was going on. It would have been better that no inquiry at all should have taken place."—[3 Hansard, ccxlii. 1980.]
      Again, he had shown that the depositions taken by Mr. Blunt were, with one exception, not given upon oath; that a great part of them were untrustworthy, and much irrelevant, and he had disproved the allegations against Mr. Ogle. He also showed that at least one witness, upon his own evidence, was suborned, while he assured the House of his belief in the existence of a mass of fresh evidence which carried conviction to his own mind, inasmuch as every part of it was corroborated by the other. He had further stated that Mr. Consul General Fawcett did not take the evidence of a single witness, and made clear, by quotations from the Blue Book, the animus existing against Mr. Ogle on the part of the Turkish officials. He had likewise pointed out that the guarantee which was considered to be necessary by numerous authorities had been refused by Mr. Fawcett, and that evidence which had been tendered had not been received; he had quoted the three findings of Mr. Fawcett—
      "1. That C. C. Ogle met his death by a gun shot or bayonet wound, on Friday afternoon, the 29th of March, whilst retreating with the insurgents after the second battle of Macrinitza. 2. That he was afterwards, mutilated, his head being cut off by Turkish soldiers. 3. That his great imprudence made it extremely probable that some casualty would happen to him."—[Ibid, 1976.]
      Further, he had challenged the production of any evidence to show that Mr. Ogle met his death on the 29th of March while retreating with the insurgents, and had, on the contrary, stated that there were witnesses who saw him on the
      1354
      morning after the battle, when he could not be accused of taking part with the insurgents, or being guilty of any imprudence. It seemed to him, that in asking that the evidence should be sifted by a proper Commission, he was but making a very reasonable request, and he had understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to promise that a fresh inquiry should take place as soon as possible without waiting until everything was "entirely quiet and peaceable in the country,"—[3 Hansard, ccxlii. 2003,]—and that the witnesses who gave evidence should be assured of the protection of Her Majesty's Government, and afterwards, if necessary, taken to a place of safety. As he had said before, he had touched as little as possible upon the conduct of Her Majesty's Government, and merely stated that
      "If they allow a murder of this kind to be neglected, as I believe I shall be able to prove it has been; if they allow it to remain not only practically uninvestigated, but coloured and distorted by a prejudiced statement of facts; if they allow the guilty to remain undesignated, I think the House will agree with me that upon them will rest the very grave responsibility of rendering more insecure in the future than in the past the safety, honour, and welfare of our citizens abroad."—[Ibid. 1958.]
      His object in making the Motion had been to give the Government the opportunity of relieving themselves from that very heavy responsibility. Since the murder of Mr. Ogle, there had taken place the murder of another British subject in one of the Turkish Islands—he referred to that of Mr. Anderson, in Crete, and he should be very glad to know what means had been taken by Her Majesty's Government for eliciting the truth, and punishing the guilty in that case also? As far as he (Mr. H. Samuelson) knew, no person had been punished, and no inquiry had taken place. The murder of Mr. Ogle occurred on the 30th of March, 1878, or, according to Mr. Consul General Fawcett, on on the 29th of that month. They had now reached the 20th of March, 1879; another year had elapsed, and nothing had been done. They were extending their ægis over Turkey and making themselves responsible to a great extent for her good government, and yet they had done nothing to show the Turks that the blood of British subjects could not be shed with impunity. He said nothing of the omission on the part of the Government

      1355
      to fulfil the promise which they had given, although he was sure that the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of Exchequer, upon the day on which the Motion was made, did believe that there existed a primâ facie ground for another inquiry and fully meant every word he said. It might be that questions of policy had arisen in the meantime upon which he was uninformed; but it was not for want of continual pressure upon Her Majesty's Government upon his part, that this very important matter had been left uninvestigated. In again drawing attention to the circumstance of the murder of Mr. Ogle, he had only endeavoured to obtain what he thought they had a right to expect—namely, a further investigation into the brutal murder of a British subject. He was sorry to have detained the House, although he had not fully gone upon that occasion into the merits of the case. The delay that had taken place was very much to be regretted; for, as the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) had pointed out, it could not but prejudice the chance of success of a future inquiry. Owing to that unfortunate delay he was now driven to make another public appeal. Only yesterday he had received a letter from the father of the young man who was so brutally murdered. The writer, who was not aware that it was his intention to bring the subject before the House that evening, stated that he "still lay under the shadow of last year," that he began to despair of obtaining justice in England, while he pointed as a contrast to the fact that the people of Volo intended to solemnize the day of Charles Ogle's death with some sacred rite. The day of his death was nearly upon them now, and he only hoped that before its arrival they would receive from the Government some assurance that the memory of Charles Ogle was really to be vindicated and justice done upon his murderers.
      THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I feel, as I am sure all the Members of this House felt last year, the very powerful and touching manner in which the hon. Member for Frome (Mr. H. Samuelson) brought forward his case. He has spoken again to-day with the same feeling which so creditably animated him upon the former occasion. At the same time, I ask the House to bear in mind that there are other points of view from which we may regard this
      1356
      question. With regard to what took place last year, although the hon. Member is within his right in saying that he had established, to his own satisfaction, a case for inquiry, on the ground that the investigation which had been made into Mr. Ogle's death had failed to arrive at the truth; still, the admissions we were able to make on the part of the Government, did not amount to the full acceptance of his position. What I maintained, and what I think I was justified, upon the evidence before us, in maintaining, was this—that so far as the case was investigated, and so far as the evidence before Mr. Consul General Fawcett went, there was the probability, though not the certain conclusion, to be drawn, that Mr. Ogle met his death in the pursuit on the day on which the fight occurred. But, having stated that, I will add that the Government believed that Mr. Fawcett had done his best to get at the truth of the matter, and that if he failed, it was because evidence had not been forthcoming. When the hon. Gentleman stated that he had evidence which would upset the story accepted by Mr. Fawcett, and could show that Mr. Ogle's death occurred on a subsequent day, I admitted that there was really a case in which further investigation should have taken place, and that the evidence should be placed fully before a tribunal which might be invited to see if it were possible to arrive at a different and more accurate conclusion. The promise given was, that an inquiry should take place when the position of the country should admit of that being done. I stated, I think, myself, that we did not mean to say that we must wait until the country was absolutely quiet, but until it was in such a state that the inquiry could be effectually prosecuted, and the Greek witnesses could come forward with a tolerable assurance of safety. Undoubtedly, at that time, we looked forward to being enabled to conduct that inquiry at a very much earlier period than we shall be able to do. Again, we had then reason to hope that the settlement of the boundaries between Turkey and Greece would have made more rapid progress than it has made, and, undoubtedly, it is one element to be taken into consideration, that this particular district may be regarded as certain to fall to Greece. Favourable arrangements had fallen through, or, no doubt, the inquiry would have taken

      1357
      place with very much greater advantage. The hon. Gentleman is aware, from communications which have passed between himself and the Members of the Government, that the subject has not been out of our minds, although we have not been able to do that which we hoped to do. They had at one time considered the names of gentlemen to undertake the inquiry, but I will not now mention them. I have communicated again with Lord Salisbury, and my noble Friend still remains of the opinion which he expressed in August last—he still believes that a better opportunity would occur for the inquiry when this settlement has been effected. The matter is one that has more than once been considered by us, and I do hope that some opportunity may be given for bringing the circumstances of which the hon. Member has spoken to the test of examination. With regard to Mr. Consul General Fawcett, I am bound to say, upon the evidence presented to him, I think the House will consider that he came to a not unreasonable conclusion. If the evidence was not conclusive, I do not think anything has occurred that would justify the imputations such as I have observed have been cast upon him. It is not only natural that there should be deep sympathy expressed on account of Mr. Ogle, who was undoubtedly a man of most estimable character, but it is also natural that his relatives should entertain some feeling of dissatisfaction, which, as far as Mr. Fawcett is concerned, is hardly to be justified.
      MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, that even now it was impossible, from the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, to know whether the inquiry would be made within a reasonable time. If they were really to wait until the boundary question between Greece and Turkey was settled, and if no more pressure was to be exerted upon Turkey by the Government, he was afraid that they must wait for the inquiry until the Greek Kalends. He wanted to know, whether any inquiry would take place within any reasonable time, or whether we were going to wait until the boundary question was settled? They had a right to ask whether that inquiry was to be held at once, or whether it was to be put off for an indefinite period? If they were to go on month after month the evidence
      1358
      would disappear, and the inquiry would be quite useless. He was sure that if any further delay took place, no real inquiry could be held, and we should never know under what circumstances Charles Ogle lost his life.
      MR. RAMSAYfelt some interest in the case of Charles Ogle, and could not help expressing his regret that the right hon. Gentleman had not seen fit to give some assurance that a satisfactory investigation of the whole circumstances connected with his death should be made at an early date. The right hon. Gentleman was aware that one point of the case was that Mr. Consul General Fawcett came to a conclusion which was not warranted by the evidence which came before him; and he had also been objected to as not an impartial investigator. He (Mr. Ramsay) inquired at what time they might expect to have the investigation entered upon, in order to satisfy the just expectation of the public; and he could not but feel that the right hon. Gentleman himself must sympathize with hon. Members who had to press upon the Government the investigation of the murder of a British subject under circumstances of such atrocity. It was to be hoped that some assurance would be given by Her Majesty's Government that the inquiry should take place within a short time. It was not enough to tell them they must wait until the Turkish boundary was settled; that was, no doubt, a matter of consequence; but he must express a hope that Her Majesty's Government would feel some impulse to press upon the Sultan a circumstance which occurred in a part of his territories expected very soon to be separated from the rest of his dominions. In his opinion, also, Her Majesty's Ministers might very well point out to the Turkish Government that the murder of a British subject was one that demanded immediate attention.
      MR. H. SAMUELSONsaid, after what had been stated on behalf of the Government, he should feel it to be his duty, if no inquiry were made within a reasonable time, again to bring the subject before the House, although it would be painful for him to go over the whole case again. In that event, he would certainly take a Division. On the former occasion, not one hon. Member had spoken against his Motion, and he had been put off with fair promises, for

      1359
      which reason he did not Divide; but, had he done so, he believed he would have gained the day. The House would not expect him, after a lapse of 12 months from the time when the murder took place, to guarantee the continued existence of the testimony which he had then declared to exist. He firmly believed in it at the time, and he firmly believed in it now; but, in his opinion, the chances of a successful inquiry being held would be seriously diminished if a much longer period of time were allowed to elapse before it took place.
      MR. SHAW-LEFEVREsaid, he would like to have some answer to his Question as to whether it was intended to postpone this inquiry until the conclusion of the negotiations with Greece, or whether the inquiry would be held within a reasonable time?
      THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he was not in a position to answer that Question at the moment; but perhaps he should be able to give the hon. Member the information shortly.
      MR. BIGGARsaid, that though Mr. Consul General Fawcett seemed to be a gentleman thoroughly impartial, yet he pressed upon the Government, if possible, to get some gentleman of character whose report would have some influence.
      Vote agreed to.
      (13.) £19,246, Treasury Chest.
      MR. WHITWELLsaid, he should like to know the amount of these large sums, and the number of transactions?
      SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, he was afraid he could not give the hon. Member the number of the transactions, but he believed the net amount was £1,000,000. It was to make up for the deficiencies arising from the depreciation of silver.
      Vote agreed to.

    CLASS VI.—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED THRED ALLOWANCES AND GEATUITIES FOR CHARITABLE AND OTHER PURPOSES.
    (14.) £1,750, Relief of Distressed British Seamen Abroad.
    (15.) £534, Pauper Lunatics, Scotland.

    CLASS VII.—MISCELLANEOUS, SPECIAL AND TEMPORARY PURPOSES.
    (16.) £4,960, Temporary Commissions.
    MR. BIGGARsaid, he should be glad to know if the hon. Gentleman would give any information as to the Irish Poor Law Commission and the Commission on the Municipal Boundaries of the Irish Towns?
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, as to the Poor Law in Ireland, the Commission was appointed in March, 1877, the office of the Commissioners being to inquire into what was alleged to be excessive accommodation in Irish workhouses, and to report as to the dissolution or amalgamation of the existing Unions. That body was called the Poor Law (Ireland) Commission, and that was completed at the present moment. That Commission also inquired into the system of taking lunatics as well. With regard to the other Commission on the Taxation of Cities and Towns in Ireland, it would be remembered that a Parliamentary Committee sat in 1878, and that Committee found that further inquiry was necessary, and the condition of some towns, as regarded their municipal boundaries, was not satisfactory, and they recommended that a Commission should be appointed to investigate the subject in its detail. To carry out the recommendations of that Committee this Select Commission was appointed—in the first instance for six months—but when it was found that the work could not be got through, it was reappointed.
    MR. BIGGARthought the explanation in reference to the Poor Law Unions was perfectly satisfactory, for they knew perfectly well that the accommodation for paupers in certain parts of Ireland was much in excess of what was required. With regard to the Commission to inquire into the Municipal Boundaries of Irish Towns, of course, the Government were perfectly justified in nominating it, if the large Committee reported in its favour; but he could not help thinking that the recommendations of the Committee were nothing of the sort. In all the towns which he knew, there was no intention to increase the boundaries, but rather the reverse.
    Vote agreed to.
    (17.) £7,200, Mediterranean Extension Telegraph Company (Guarantee).
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEasked where the Bed Sea Cable, referred to in the Estimates, started?
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, he was sorry to say this was the unfortunate cable for which the Government of the day had made a contract to pay interest for the amount expended on it, and it had never been in working order since. They had, therefore, been saddled with this amount in years in which no profit had been made. This year, they had had to take the whole guarantee. He believed the cable ran to the Red Sea; but he was not informed of the exact spot where it started. He would ascertain, however, and let the hon. Baronet know.
    Vote agreed to.
    (18.) £520, Epping Forest Commission.
    (19.) £6,656, Civil Contingencies Fund.
    MR. WHITWELLsaid, he was afraid the unfortunate page of Miscellaneous Payments was always accumulating. There they had accounts long deferred from 1868, Expenses charged now on the public for the maintenance of the Prince of Abyssinia, and other payments equally strange and remarkable. He hoped that next year they would cease to see such evidence of neglectful book-keeping as was here afforded. There was an item down of £3,040 5s. 2d. for the supply of Land Force to the Sultan of Zanzibar; but he was not aware that there was any original Estimate for that, but they found it amongst the "Miscellaneous Expenditure," in a lump sum. They all knew, no doubt, that that amount was spent in assisting the Sultan of Zanzibar to put down the Slave Trade, in which the people of this country were so much interested; but here the expenditure was found as if nothing had gone before it.
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, he was quite as anxious as the hon. Member to get rid of the system to which he objected, and to avoid, as far as possible, the way of accounting for expenditure. At the same time, the hon. Member was quite aware that it was not so easy to do. With regard to the sum spent on supplying the Land Force
    1362
    to the Sultan of Zanzibar, the explanation of that amount appearing there was that it came in after the Estimates were made up, and as the money had to be paid at once, it had been classified as it stood.
    MR. MACDONALDsaid, there was an item of £36 which he should wish explained? It was paid to The Journal of the Geological Society for copies of an article contained in it.
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, he was not able to answer the question fully. He believed that amount was given in aid of the publication, giving the results of recent naval expeditions. It was thought that the public took sufficient interest in these results, and the Government thought it prudent, as he imagined, to encourage that interest.
    MR. BIGGARasked, that as the Irish Church was disestablished and disendowed, he would like an explanation of the payment made to the incumbent of St. Paul's Portarlington, page 33?
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, the payment to this reverend gentleman was originally made under an Act of George III., charging upon the Consolidated Fund the stipend to the clergyman of the place, whoever he might be, for services rendered to the French community at Portarlington. He ascertained last year that there was now no French community at Portarlington, and that no service was performed. He felt, under these circumstances, that it was not proper to continue this charge to the Consolidated Fund, but as the clergyman in question had accepted the living with this payment as a part of his income, it was felt that they could not deprive him of it. Therefore, it had been determined to include this stipend amongst the Miscellaneous Charges. He asked the Committee to sanction the payment of that amount to the present holder so long as he occupied the position.
    MR. BIGGARasked whether the hon. Gentleman would say if the reverend incumbent had obtained compensation under the Irish Church Act? If he did, it would be clearly the duty of the Committee to object to the Vote.
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON: It was not taken into account at the time.
    Vote agreed to.

    REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
    (20.) £34,500, Inland Revenue.
    (21.) That a sum, not exceeding £17,899 1s. 2d., be granted to Her Majesty, to make good Excesses on certain Grants for Civil Services, for the year ended on the 31st day of March 1878, ciz.:—

    CLASS II.—SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS.

    £

    s.

    d.

    House of Commons Offices

    1

    19

    3

    CLASS III.—LAW AND JUSTICE.

    Criminal Prosecutions, &c.,

    450

    14

    4

    County Courts

    16,733

    13

    0

    Land Registry Office

    22

    3

    5

    Convict Establishments, England and the Colonies

    77

    12

    4

    Registry of Judgments, Ireland

    51

    2

    5

    CLASS V.—COLONIAL, CONSULAR, AND OTHER FOREIGN SERVICES.

    Treasury Chest

    4

    4

    11

    CLASS VII.—MISCELLANEOUS, SPECIAL AND TEMPORARY PURPOSES.

    Temporary Commissions

    557

    11

    6

    Total amount Voted for Civil Services

    £17,899

    1

    2

    House resumed.
    Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.

  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS AND CORRUPT PRACTICES BILL.
  (Mr. Attorney General, Mr. Assheton Cross, Mr. Solicitor General.)
  PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS AND CORRUPT PRACTICES BILL.

    [Bill 78.] SECOND READING.
    Order for Second Reading read.
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL (Sir JOHN HOLKER),on rising to move that the Bill be now read a second time, said, that, not having had an opportunity of explaining its provisions when he introduced it, it might be for the advantage of the House that he should now briefly do so. For some time past it had been felt that the law with regard to corrupt practices at Elections and also with regard to the trial of Election Petitions was in not altogether a satisfactory state. The matter had several times been brought under the notice of the House, and in 1875 a Committee was appointed to consider it. That Committee, after taking a great deal of evidence, had made certain recommendations, some of which, though not all, for reasons
    1364
    which he would explain, were embodied in the Bill now before the House. The first recommendation of the Committee was that every Election Petition alleging corrupt practices against a sitting Member or his agents, should be tried by a tribunal consisting of two Judges of the Superior Courts. That recommendation was one of great importance, raising questions of much nicety and difficulty, and, with the permission of the House, he would postpone consideration of it for a moment or two. The Committee, in the next place, recommended that immediately after the decision of the Judges had been pronounced upon an Election Petition, or as soon thereafter as might be, all persons who appeared to have been guilty of bribery, treating, or the exercise of undue influence, should be brought before the Election Judges and summarily tried for such offence, for which they should be liable, if convicted, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months, with or without hard labour. Another recommendation of the Committee was, that in order to the due trial of such persons, the Attorney General should appoint some person to attend the trial of every Election Petition, and take care that they were brought before the Election Judges and summarily dealt with in the manner described. Now, the Government had not been able to adopt these two recommendations. They thought, in the first place, that if they were adopted, the trial of Election Petitions would be unduly prolonged; and, in the second, they were not sure that the Election Judges, who had investigated the matter, and, therefore, must necessarily have already arrived at conclusions of their own respecting the conduct of the persons before them, would form the best possible tribunal for the trial of such persons. Moreover, the Government did not see why such persons should be deprived of their ordinary right to be tried by a jury of their own countrymen. No doubt the course recommended by the Committee of bringing them before a possibly irate Judge who had full knowledge of their delinquencies, would be a very easy one of getting rid of offenders, but the Government did not think it advisable to adopt it for the reasons stated. The fourth recommendation of the Committee was one which the Government had adopted—namely, that with the consent of the parties to a Petition, the Judges should order the

    1365
    trial to be held in the metropolitan town of the part of the United Kingdom to which the Petition related, or any other convenient place. A further recommendation of the Committee had reference to the throwing away of votes, and it was that—
    "When disqualification arises from the candidate having been guilty of corrupt practices, no vote shall he deemed to be thrown away, unless the person for whom such vote is given has been declared guilty of corrupt practices by a tribunal having jurisdiction to entertain and determine the question."
    On this point, the law did not appear to be uniform in England, Scotland, and Ireland. In the Galway Election, some time ago, if he remembered rightly, a decision was given to this effect—If it were notorious that a candidate had been guilty of corrupt practices, though he might not have been convicted of the offence, all votes given for him must be regarded as futile. Whether that was a sound decision, he did not now ask the House to say, but the question had been raised whether, under the circumstances stated, votes ought to be regarded as thrown away. The Committee recommended that they should not be regarded as thrown away, and their recommendation was embodied in the Bill. Coupled with this, there was a recommendation that no vote should be deemed to be thrown away, unless the alleged disqualification was so notorious as to lead to the presumption that the voters had given their votes wilfully and perversely to a candidate incapable of being elected. The Government, however, had not adopted that suggestion, simply because the law was already in accordance with it, and therefore it was unnecessary to introduce any provision on the subject. The next recommendation was an important one. It was, that an addition should be made to Clause 11, Section 14, of the Act of 1868—the Election Petitions Act—providing that in the event of the Judges being of opinion that the inquiry into the circumstances of an Election had been rendered incomplete by the action of either of the parties to the Petition, and that further inquiry was necessary, the House of Commons on receiving such report, might order a second inquiry to be made forthwith before one of the Judges forming the tribunal, which inquiry should be conducted by an Officer appointed by the Attorney General. The recommendation
    1366
    further provided that the Judge should give his certificate whether he was of opinion that the inquiry had been rendered incomplete by the action of either party. It very often happened that one of the candidates, finding he had been compromised by an indiscreet or unscrupulous agent bribing, rashly, foolishly, and wrongly, right and left, and that it was quite hopeless for him to defend his seat, set to work with the parties petitioning to discover whether the borough or county, as the case might be, could not be preserved. It became, in fact, the object of both parties to shield the iniquitous borough or county as much as they could, and the whole thing, to use a common and intelligible expression, was "squared." There could be no doubt that by such contrivances a great number of corrupt practices could be kept from the knowledge of the Judge who had to try the Petition, from the House of Commons, and from the knowledge of the country generally. That was not as it ought to be, and therefore Her Majesty's Government had concurred in and adopted the suggestions that if inquiry had been stifled or rendered incomplete by such means, further inquiry was needed. The Government were, however, of opinion that the Judge, having made his Report, it would not be wise to have immediately a fresh inquiry before the Election Judge conducted by the Attorney General; but to provide that the Election Judge should make a Report, as in the case of the Election Act of 1852, and that it should have the same effect, and be dealt with in the same manner, as if it were a Report of a Committee of the House of Commons appointed to inquire into the existence of corrupt practices in a particular case. On such a Report by a Committee of the House, Commissioners would be appointed to go down and inquire whether corrupt practices were prevalent in the borough or county, and if they reported in the affirmative, the result would probably be that the delinquent constituency would be disfranchised. That was the course now proposed to be followed, so that, practically, the suggestion of the Committee had been adopted. The next suggestion of the Committee was that in every case where the Election Judge reported that corrupt practices had prevailed, every person scheduled by the Judge to have been guilty of any corrupt practices within the Act of 1854

    1367
    should be disqualified from voting for the borough or county in which the same had been proved to have occurred—should be deprived of his right of voting for seven years from the date of the report made against him. Now, it struck him, that that was an exceedingly harsh and severe suggestion. It did not follow that because a man had been reported to be guilty of corrupt practices, therefore he was guilty; and it would be hard, without giving him an opportunity of being heard in his own defence, to deprive him of the privilege of voting for seven years. He did not think that such a provision would meet with the approval of the House, which was always disposed to see fair play carried out between all parties. Under the present law, a man reported to have been guilty of corrupt practices, and who had had an opportunity of being heard on his own behalf, should be liable to that and to other consequences. It was one thing, however, to punish a man who had had an opportunity of defending himself; it was quite another in the case of a man who had not been heard, and who had been merely reported to have been guilty of corrupt practices; and, that being so, Her Majesty's Government had not been able to embody that suggestion in the Bill. The further suggestion with reference to the tribunal before which a candidate found guilty of personal corruption should be tried was an extremely important one, and so also was the last, in which the Committee had had their attention drawn to the provision of the existing Act which forbade the payment of any money for the conveyance of voters in boroughs to the polls, except in certain cases which the Act specified. The Committee stated in their Report that the law had in some instances been broken, and they were of opinion that the polling-places in boroughs might be so selected as that conveyance of voters would be altogether unnecessary, and should be the subject of some penalty if resorted to. Now, the hon. Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles Dilke) and the hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) founded some opposition to the Bill on the ground that a penalty should be and had not been provided, the Bill proposing to leave the law in that respect in its present condition. The present law fixed the penalty for conveying voters to the poll in boroughs in hired vehicles at
    1368
    40 s. There were, he might observe, three views taken of the question. One was, that conveyance of voters in hired vehicles was not merely an illegal act, but that it should avoid the seat; another was, that the law as it stood should not be altered; and the third was, that the law should be repealed, and that, it should be made legal to convey voters to the poll in hired vehicles. He had hardly been able to make up his mind upon the point. In his opinion, it would be very hard to make such conveyance of voters a ground for avoiding the seat. A Member—say, a working man's candidate—would be unseated for hiring a number of cabs to convey voters, while the seat of an opulent Member who had accepted the offer of a number of carriages from his friends for a like purpose would be quite safe. But it was said that the provision in the existing Act on this subject ought to be repealed. If, as had been urged, it was a law which was not put in force, which was practically a dead letter, he should not object to let it go; but he thought that it was of some use, and that possibly the idea that a disregard for it might have something to do with avoiding an Election would lead to a less frequent hiring of cabs and carriages to convey voters to the poll. His mind, however, was quite open on the subject, and if he were not convinced to the contrary, he would remain of the opinion that it would be better to allow the law to remain as it then was. He would now come to the question to which he had before alluded, as to whether the tribunal for the trial of Election Petitions should consist of two Judges, as recommended by a majority of the Committee who reported that, in their opinion, no Member should be unseated or declared guilty of corrupt practices except on the unanimous report of two Judges of the Superior Courts. For his part, he confessed he thought that, except in an exceptional case, one Judge of the Superior Courts constituted a very good tribunal, and was very satisfactory. He would bring to the inquiry into an Election Petition a knowledge of the law which had been already settled, and a mind trained to the investigation and sifting of evidence. No man was more accustomed to investigate facts, and to arrive at conclusions, than a Judge of the Superior Courts. He could quite understand that it was

    1369
    possible to have a more satisfactory tribunal—one which very likely would command the confidence of the general public more—as in the case of a tribunal of three Judges; but he did not see how the case would be very much bettered by having a tribunal of two Judges. If there was an unanimous decision in a Court with two Judges it might be all very well, but, supposing that the House were to adopt the suggestion of the Committee, and that in a case where corrupt practices were alleged against a candidate, the tribunal happened to be divided, what, he would like to know, would be the position of the unhappy candidate? He would be allowed to sit in the House of Commons, it was true, but he would necessarily sit under all the stigma and disgrace which would attach to a man who had failed to be acquitted by the tribunal. The adoption of the suggestion made by the Committee would lead to disastrous consequences, as the tribunal of two might not come to a decision, and, in such a case, would not acquit a man of the misdeeds alleged against him. It might be said, "If you approve a tribunal of three, why do not you elect such a tribunal?" The answer was an easy one. A tribunal of three could not be constituted, because the country did not possess sufficient judicial power. The requisite number of Judges could not be spared. At the General Election which might be held before very long, a good deal of bribery and corruption would probably be alleged in many cases, and from where was the country to get three Judges to try the Election Petitions that would follow? They could not be found anywhere, unless a stop was to be put to the ordinary business of the Courts, or unless a vast number of Judges were to be created simply for the purpose of trying Election Petitions, for their services would not be required afterwards. For the reasons which he had adduced, the Government had come to the conclusion that such a tribunal could not be had, and that, therefore, the suggestion of the Committee was not an admissible one. If the Government could afford a tribunal of three Judges, they would be willing to provide one; but, after carefully considering the matter, they had come to the conclusion that the appointment of such a tribunal was utterly impossible. Well, then, there was this further suggestion of the Com-
    1370
    mittee, or, rather, of the Committee of 1875—
    "That, whatever may be the ultimate decision of Parliament as to the composition of the tribunal which is to try Election Petitions, it is, in the judgment of this Committee, most advisable that the Law should be altered in reference to the penalties imposed by the 43rd section of the Act of 1868, by providing that they shall not be incurred, except on the conviction of the offender after trial in due course of law or by the decision at least of two Judges."
    He did not think the suggestion was very happily expressed, but its meaning was, that the offender should not be convicted except on the decision of two Judges. Certainly the case of a candidate who was reported guilty of personal bribery, was a very exceptional one. Perhaps the House would allow him to remind it of the provisions of the Act of 1868 in regard to this matter. The 43rd section of that Act contained the following:—
    "When it is found, by the Report of the Judge upon an Election Petition under this Act, that bribery has been committed by or with the knowledge or consent of any candidate at an Election, such candidate shall be deemed to have been personally guilty of bribery at such Election, and his election shall be void, and he shall be incapable of being elected to or of sitting in Parliament for a space of seven years, and he shall further be incapable of being registered a voter, and of voting at any election, and of holding any office under 5 and 6 Will. IV., or 3 and 4 Vic, or of holding any municipal or judical office, or of being appointed and acting as a justice of the peace."
    The penalties, imposed upon a candidate who was found by the report of the Judge to be guilty of what he might call personal corruption were, therefore enormous, and it might well be that terror was excited in the minds of candidates when they thought of the penalties that might be imposed upon them. It had been felt, and felt very strongly, that it was harsh that decisions involving such severe consequences should be arrived at by a single Judge, especially as no appeal was allowed. The Government had considered the matter, and had come to the conclusion that the recommendations of the Committee were of the greatest importance; but, instead of enacting that the trial should be before two Judges, they had provided in the present Bill that, whenever a candidate was reported as personally guilty of corruption, he should have an appeal from the decision of the Election Judge

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    to the Court of Appeal, so that, before he could be pronounced guilty, and before the very fearful consequences of guilt could be entailed upon him, he would have a right to the decision, perhaps, of four or five Judges, but, at all events, of three, of the highest standing. No more satisfactory tribunal could be found in this Kingdom or in any other than the Court of Appeal, and the provision of the Bill was, that when personal corruption was alleged, an appeal would lie just as in ordinary cases. The action would be brought before the Court in the same manner as cases were now brought before it, and if the Court came to the conclusion that the Election Judge was right, everybody would be satisfied. He had, he believed, now made known to the House all the provisions of the Bill. Hon. Gentlemen would see that to a great extent the recommendations of the Committee, most of which he considered were very excellent ones, had been adopted, and that, in those cases where they had not been adopted, there existed very good reasons for rejecting the Committee's suggestion. He concluded by moving the second reading of the Bill.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Mr. Attorney General.)
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKE,in moving, as an Amendment—
    "That no Bill to amend the Acts relating to Election Petitions and to the prevention of Corrupt Practices at Parliamentary Elections will be satisfactory to the House which leaves the Law with regard to payments for the conveyance of Voters to the poll in its present condition,"
    said, he would not, on the present occasion, go generally into the subject of the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General's speech, nor very widely into the Bill; but would suggest, for the sake of convenience, that the House should first take a Division on his Amendment, and then take up the major question raised by the measure. The Bill itself was a very small one upon a very large subject. With regard to the Amendment, he thought the House must be very much astonished at some observations which had fallen from the Attorney General. The hon. and learned Member, after telling the House that a
    1372
    law existed which was absurd, and which was almost universally broken, had proceeded to say, as the highest Legal Authority in the House, that he did not propose to do anything at all to improve matters, and that he intended to leave the law as it stood. Surely, that was a most impotent conclusion to arrive at? It being the case that the law with regard to the use of vehicles at elections was broken throughout the country, was the House of Commons going to declare that that law did not require alteration? The Attorney General knew perfectly well that if the law were left in its present condition, it would everywhere continue to be broken, and it would be broken more and more every year. In 1868, when the law against the employment of vehicles in boroughs was quite new, it was pretty generally observed; but in 1874, when people had come to know that the penalties attached to that law were never going to be put in force, it was almost universally broken; and if there still existed a few boroughs in which the law had been observed up to the present time, the day was not far distant when it would be disregarded even in those select places. The law, as it now stood, legalized the payment for vehicles to convey voters to the poll in counties and some few agricultural boroughs; but it prohibited such a payment in all other boroughs in the country under a penalty of 40 s. At the same time, there remained behind this, the danger that it was possible a severe Election Judge might decide, under certain circumstances, that the organized commission of an illegal act on a large scale by a candidate's agents voided the election. This general terror, which had not been met by any decision yet pronounced, but which had only been hinted at in certain judicial decisions, had not been found sufficient to prevent the employment of vehicles in the way he had described. Still it was possible that a candidate who permitted the employment of vehicles at an Election might find himself subject to the adverse decision of a particularly severe Judge. He believed the penalty for the employment of vehicles at Elections had never been enforced in a single case. Surely, it could not be a satisfactory state of things that the Attorney General should be still making up his mind on this subject, or that he had made up

    1373
    his mind to allow matters to remain as they were? He should help the Attorney General to make up his mind by dividing the House on the Amendment he had placed on the Paper. For his own part, in common with many hon. Gentlemen on that side of the House, he would rather have the law changed in either direction than left in its present state. It would be a perfectly intelligible thing if they were to enforce such penalties as would cause the law to be generally observed, or were to declare that, being on the whole unable to enforce it, they would repeal it; but it was neither intelligible nor defensible that they should leave matters in the lax position in which they at present stood. With regard to what should be done when they got into Committee, the Attorney General had argued in advance against the idea of making the employment of vehicles at Elections a corrupt practice. At all events, if the hon. and learned Gentleman were to ask the working men's candidates at Elections what they thought of the law, they would tell him they would rather not have the employment of vehicles legalized by that House. In fact, there was nothing which tended more to limit candidatures to the rich at the present time than this payment for the conveyance of voters to the poll. On the present occasion, his position was that it was a monstrous thing for the Attorney General to tell the House that the law was universally broken, and that the hon. and learned Member should finally announce his decision to leave matters as they stood. The hon. Baronet concluded by moving the Amendment of which he had given Notice.
    MR. GORST,in seconding the Amendment, said, he was glad to do so, as his hon. and learned Friend the Attorney General had invited the House to assist the Government in making up their minds upon the question. He could confirm the opinion expressed by his hon. and learned Friend, and by the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke) also, that this law relating to the employment of vehicles was almost universally broken. He did not know a single part of England in which the employment of vehicles was not universally practised. He would even go farther, and say that, in any contested election, if a candidate was so virtuous or scrupulous as not to provide
    1374
    cabs, he would inevitably lose the election. He was not quite sure whether the employment of cabs was a violation of the law or not, as it had never been decided. The hon. Baronet, when he was speaking, used the expression, "employment of vehicles for elections;" but what was forbidden by the Act of Parliament was not the employment of vehicles for elections, but the payment of money in respect of the conveyance of a voter to the poll. Now, it might be argued that if money was paid for hiring vehicles for a day, it was not paid in respect of the conveyance of any particular voter to the poll, as the cabs might be employed for other purposes. He thought it desirable that an amendment of the law should be made so as to clear up that point. The existence of the present law was one of the most direct inducements to the employment of corrupt practices at the present time. Corruption always sprang from secret payment, and if they could only make all payments in respect of elections public there would be no corruption at all. Now, in the case of cabs there must be some arrangement by which some one, without the knowledge of the candidates, should supply a sum of money for payment of cabs. The mere history of a great deal of the corruption which took place at elections at the present time was that the money provided for the hire of vehicles was devoted by the persons to whom it was entrusted to other purposes, such as public-houses. He did not know whether the law should be more stringent or whether it should be repealed and the practice left as it was before. The tendency of his mind was towards the repeal of the law, solely on the ground of the impossibility of drawing the line defining what a corrupt employment of vehicles would be.
    Amendment proposed,
    To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "no Bill to amend the Acts relating to Election Petitions and to the prevention of Corrupt Practices at Parliamentary Elections will be satisfactory to the House which leaves the Law with regard to payments for the conveyance of Voters to the poll in its present condition,"—(Sir Charles W. Dilke,)
    —instead thereof.
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
    MR. ANDERSON,who had an Amendment on the Paper, to the effect—
    "That, in the opinion of this House, no measure will be satisfactory to the country, unless it attempts to deal with paid canvassers, conveyance of voters to the poll, and the use of faggot-votes,"
    took exception to the remark that the law was universally broken. He had not broken it himself, and did not think the law was ever broken in that way in Scotland, or, if it was, it must be in very exceptional cases. But if it was broken now with impunity in England, it might soon be also broken in Scotland, and with even more impunity, for he did not think there was any penalty there. There was no such thing as a misdemeanour in Scotland. This term was not known. He disagreed with the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) in thinking conveyances should be made legal. He would make the law stronger than at present, and forbid the employment of vehicles, and also the payment of railway fares from one end of the Kingdom to another. It might be left to the Election Judge to say whether the law had been in an organized and persistent manner broken.
    MR. ONSLOWsaid, he would vote for the Amendment. Under the present law, a candidate might be unjustly unseated, through unauthorized persons employing vehicles in his alleged behalf. Though the borough he represented was a very small one, on election days the voters would not go on "shank's mare," but must travel luxuriously in some vehicle or other. In large boroughs, however, it was impossible to avoid having voters conveyed to the poll, if they were to go to the poll at all. An alteration in the law was necessary. He thought it should be in the direction of removing the present prohibition against the hire of vehicles; but this was a point they could afterwards discuss.
    MR. COLMANcomplained of the uncertainty of the present law, and said that the payment of the costs of conveying the voters to the poll in the counties was legal, whereas it was said, in the curious phraseology of the law, to be illegal, but not corrupt, so as to void the election in the boroughs. That was a state of the law which certainly failed to commend itself to the borough voters, and he thought that Parliament, in legis-
    1376
    lating upon the question, could not go contrary to public sentiment and feeling. It would be most difficult, indeed, to induce the borough voter to believe that he did a corrupt thing in being conveyed to the poll, when his brother voter just over the border in doing the same thing did that which was perfectly legal. He hoped the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General would not consent to leave the law in such an unsatisfactory state. He (Mr. Colman) thought the law required amendment, and that the law in boroughs should be made the same as it now was in counties. He agreed that all the expenses incurred in a contested Election should be published, and he thought this should be done not merely in the locality but in a Return to Parliament, because he believed that publicity had a great tendency to check corruption. He hoped to hear a declaration from the hon. and learned Gentleman before the debate closed, that he would no longer consent to allow the law to remain in the uncertain state in which, unhappily, it was now.
    MR. GREGORYsaid, it seemed to be agreed that it was desirable to take the opportunity which the Bill offered of making some alteration in the law. Opinions, however, differed as to the direction in which this alteration should proceed. For his own part, he thought the law should be amended as far as possible; but he was not prepared to go the length of the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke), in saying that no Bill would be satisfactory which left the law in its present condition. In fact, the hon. Baronet condemned the Bill upon a point on which it might be amended in Committee. He suggested that the hon. Baronet, having already obtained a sufficient expression of the opinion of the House, would do well to withdraw his Amendment and leave the question to be considered in Committee.
    MR. MORGAN LLOYDobserved, that there was a growing tendency to increase the expense of elections; and every effort should be made by legislation to counteract such tendency. The prohibition of the payment of conveying voters to the poll in boroughs was a step in that direction; and in his opinion, it was desirable to extend the prohibition to counties, and to place the law altogether

    1377
    in a more definite and satisfactory state. It was not fair either to the candidates or the electors that the longest purse should have the best chance of success. The conveyance of voters to the poll was a bribe to the electors. The principle of this Bill was that every effort should be made to enable the voter to express his real opinion and to elect the candidate he preferred without the use of any indirect influence. The law ought to be made more stringent, and the payment of the expense of carrying voters to the poll declared to be a sufficient ground for avoiding the election. If that were done, and the prohibition extended to counties, voters would soon get accustomed to the idea, and would be conveyed to the poll at their own expense.
    SIR GEORGE BOWYERsaid, he did not propose to enter upon a consideration of the question as to the conveyance of voters. He thought that that matter had already been sufficiently ventilated. What he desired to direct the attention of the House to was the broader view—the Constitutional view which ought to be taken in regard to this Bill introduced by the Government, and in regard to the law as it at present stood. As to the law as it now stood, he had always protested against it as being highly unconstitutional. According to that law, by the decision of a single Judge, a Member of the House, or a candidate for a seat in it, was subject to the most grave and formidable civil disabilities. Under the decision of a single Judge, a man might be declared incapable of occupying a seat in the Legislature. He might be declared incapable of holding any municipal office. He might be declared incapable of giving a vote—in fact, he might be placed in such a position as practically to forfeit his civil rights. He did not go so far as to say that the validity of an Election Return ought not to be decided by Judges; and, no doubt, the measure at present before the House was an improvement upon the existing condition of matters, in so far as it provided for a Court of Appeal; but he still thought that that was not sufficient to fulfil the principles of Constitutional Law of this country. In his opinion, no man ought to be subjected to civil disabilities or to penal consequences, except under conviction by a jury of his countrymen—except under
    1378
    legal judgment by his peers. In such a case the prosecution might be left to the Attorney General; but the decision to the jury. A Member of Parliament ought not to be subject to such punishments by any single Judge appointed by the Crown, even when there was the right of appeal to said Judges, also appointed by the Crown, but only by the judgment of his peers after a regular trial, and a regular indictment before a jury. He should, in Committee, propose an Amendment to that effect.
    MR. RATHBONEsaid, that anything would be better than to leave the law in its present state of entire uncertainty. It was not right that persons who were to make laws should sit in that House through any evasion or breach of the law. He trusted that the Government would see their way to give an assurance that the law in this respect should be altered during the present Session. In the absence of such an assurance, he should vote with the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke). It would be easy to make the law more stringent, and he thought the most practical thing at present would be to extend the hours of polling, and, in the meantime, till that was done, make the law of borough and county elections conformable. Once they allowed one portion of the expenses to be kept back, they opened the door to all kinds of corruption.
    MR. W. S. STANHOPEsaid, that though the expenses of candidates in counties would be considerably lessened by making conveyance to the poll illegal, yet in large counties, and divisions of counties, such a change in the law would inflict great hardship on voters who lived at a distance. In spite of the large number of polling-places in the county he had the honour to represent, there was a large number of electors who lived five or six miles away from any polling-place. It was the desire of Parliament that the poll should be brought as closely as possible to every man's door, and since Parliament refused to allow the use of polling-papers except in the case of University elections, it was necessary, where difficulties might arise from long distances, that the present practice should be continued.
    MR. O'DONNELLsaid, he thought they ought to draw the line at the voluntary point. He objected to every

    1379
    form of influence which tended to make a voter vote for any reason except his own voluntary desire. But he thought that any gentleman might go to the poll in his own carriage, or might lend his carriage without remuneration for bringing voters to the poll. He did not think the House ought to interfere with that; but when it came to the hire of carriages for such a purpose, quite a different class of considerations arose. It had been suggested by the hon. and learned Gentleman the Attorney General that the lending of vehicles might operate severely in the case of workmen's candidates. He questioned if anything of the kind would occur. It was very unlikely when a real workman's candidate appeared—a man of real weight and influence—that the support given to him would be confined to working men. At least, he trusted that the division of classes had not yet progressed so far in this country as was suggested by the observations of the hon. and learned Gentleman. He (Mr. O'Donnell) made that statement to rebut the supposition that the lending of carriages would be all on one side. He doubted, however, whether the lending of carriages would be excessive, except where sentiment was very strong; and, in that case, it would not be the policy of the House to interfere with the strong and earnest convictions of the constituency on public matters. He quite agreed with many hon. Members who had spoken from the Liberal side of the House that the hiring of vehicles acted as a direct bribe to the voter. Unquestionably, it was a much larger bribe than the offer of refreshments. Take, for example, a case where one candidate was preferable to the other, but who was not able to provide vehicles, while the other candidate was able to say, "I will take you two or three miles on a car to the poll." Was that to be allowed when, on the other hand, the merest refreshment to the voter was forbidden? In his opinion, to present a voter with a ride of two or three miles was a far greater bribe than to give him half-a-glass of whisky. Yet, while the one was forbidden, the greater bribe was allowed; but the hiring of vehicles was a means of bribery on another account. In nearly all constituencies there was a large number of car owners, and the hiring of their vehicles would not only directly influence
    1380
    the car owners themselves, but the very considerable number of persons in their employment. Thus direct pecuniary considerations would affect the votes of a large number of persons in every constituency so long as they gave a rich man the power of buying up all the vehicles in a constituency for a day or a number of days. Besides that, the mere hiring of vehicles—he did not know how it applied to England or Scotland, but it certainly applied to Ireland, as many Irish Members would bear witness—might act as a most efficient means of coercion. For instance, it was within the knowledge, he was sure, of a large number of hon. Members from Ireland that, where a candidate of what he might without offence call the popular Party was opposed by a candidate in the territorial interest, and the former asked a tenant for his vote, the frequent reply was, that they must go to the poll in the master's car. The landlords' vehicles were sent for the tenantry, and the most complete preparations were made at the polling-places for carrying out the scheme under the eyes of the agents. The rural voters were gathered together at their residences, and brought into the polling-places without a chance of wandering or escaping. Arrived at the polling-place, there might be a difficulty in polling them at once, and a house with a large yard had previously been provided for their reception. The tenant-voters were taken in and effectually deposited in this pound, and retained there until the moment came for duly and effectually polling them. The existing law rendered this use of vehicles specially effectual for the purpose of coercing, because, under the existing law, personating agents and some other agents were allowed to be present in the booth where the voters were voting. The candidates also could go from booth to booth. Now, take the case of a number of illiterate voters picked up at their residences, and having no chance of escaping or hiding. These men, though they would prefer not to vote at all rather than vote against their consciences, were kept in the pound till the moment for polling arrived, and on going into the booth, being unable to make use of the ballot, because they were unable to read or write, were obliged to declare their votes aloud, with the candidate of their

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    landlord looking on and listening. It was impossible, under snch circumstances, to have a free election. Thus it was that the hiring of vehicles formed a link in the coercion chain that was cast around the Irish voter. This was a practical objection to the existing state of the law which was known to every Irish Member of Parliament. It ought to be the intention of Parliament to cultivate a sentiment of duty in the elector; but so long as they counteracted that by an accumulation of conveniences by which the richer candidates were possessed of the power to which he had referred, so long would their laws tend to lower the public spirit of the country. Referring to the general question, he had always felt that the true solution of the difficulty raised about trying Election Petitions was the ancient Constitutional one brought before the House by the hon. and learned Baronet the Member for the County of Wexford (Sir George Bowyer). It was observed that, while murder cases and such cases as that of the Glasgow Bank directors came before a jury, they declined to allow a broad question of fact, whether a candidate had obeyed the law, to be brought before a jury of his country also.
    MR. RITCHIEsaid, he could not support the Amendment, as he was of opinion that, if it were carried, it would have the effect of throwing the Bill out. ["No, no!"] However that might be, what seemed singular to him about all these Amendments was that no objection had been taken to any of the provisions of the Bill. It was simply objected to it, that it did not contain a clause altering the law with reference to the conveyance of voters to the poll. The Government would have great difficulty in framing a clause which would satisfy all the hon. Members who had spoken on the subject; and he did not think the absence of a clause with respect to vehicles should be allowed to upset the whole Bill. He thought the proper time for moving an Amendment would be when the Bill had reached Committee. While private carriages were allowed to convey voters to the poll, it would be unfair to visit with heavy penalties the employment of cabs tendered by the friends of a candidate who were not in a position to lend him carriages.
    MR. MUNTZhoped the House would not allow itself to be led away with the idea that passing the Amendment would have the effect of throwing out the Bill, because it was not the case. It would continue unaffected in any way. He was afraid it would be impossible to draw a line beyond which no one would be allowed to convey voters to the poll; and therefore he thought they would eventually have to revert to the old plan of allowing everyone to do so. Clearly some change was required, and he thought it would be very unfortunate if they allowed this opportunity to pass over without dealing with the question raised by the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea. He believed all the Members of the House were agreed—even the Representative of the immaculate City of Glasgow agreed—that the law ought to be altered, for in its present shape it was anything but desirable. The hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea only wanted some assurance that the matter should receive attention in Committee, and unless the hon. and learned Attorney General should give the House such an assurance, he (Mr. Muntz) would vote for the Amendment.
    MR. M'LARENdissented from the opinion expressed by the hon. and learned Attorney General, that the employment of cabs in elections was almost universal. He could state, from personal experience and observation, that in Scotland the employment of cabs was not a practice that was so generally resorted to. He himself had never paid, nor had any person paid for him, one shilling for the conveyance of voters at either of the four elections in which he had been concerned at Edinburgh. In Scotland they considered it would be quite competent for the Judges to give a serious interpretation to the words of the Act against the employment of cabs in burghs, and visit the candidates with serious consequences. One way of putting an end to the practice wherever it prevailed would, he thought, be by making the penalty for employing and paying for cabs for voters £50, instead of 40 s. This would make it worth while prosecuting offenders. Another way would be by declaring the votes given by parties conveyed at the expense of the candidates to be votes thrown away. He had experience of many elections in Scotland, and only in one instance had he known of cabs being employed by the candidate's

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    friends, and they could not venture to bring the voters to the poll, but conveyed them to the nearest election office of the candidate, and from that office the voters walked to the poll. The prohibition of conveyances would have the effect of removing a stigma from many men who would on no account wish to break the law. He hoped the Government would contrive in some way to give practical effect to the present law by making it more stringent.
    SIR HENEY JAMES,in supporting the Amendment of the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles W. Dilke), said, that all the speakers had admitted that the law was in a most unsatisfactory position, and that it ought to be altered in one direction or the other. The question was, whether the House would have the courage to vote that the law should be changed, or whether, for the sake of expediency, an unsatisfactory law should remain unchanged. Every hon. Member of that House knew that, do what he would, the law would be broken by his agent. He thought no hon. Member would wish such a state of things to continue. The word unsatisfactory was not strong enough; and he would go further and say it was a gross scandal, for the condition of the law placed at a disadvantage the man who most wished to respect and obey it, and allowed the well-doer to be defeated by the man who was willing to violate the law, because, in practice and effect, the violation was not followed by any penalty. Such a state of things could not be defended, and he hoped the Government would accept the Amendment. If the House rejected the Amendment, and said it was right to allow to exist a law which said that no carriage of voters should take place, but imposed a penalty which was no penalty—namely, 40 s., recoverable in the County Court—he did not think they would, be able to justify it. If the practice were prohibited, the prohibition ought to go to the extent of preventing it. It was useless to say that a thing should not be done if no consequence were to follow the doing of it. In that case, violation of the law would still take place with detriment to those who wished to do well, and advantage to those who wished to do evil. The future question would be whether the thing was to be permitted
    1384
    or prevented. As to that, a great deal might, no doubt, be said in favour of perfect freedom in the matter of conveyance of voters to the poll; but he thought that more still might, perhaps, be said to the contrary. The expenses of elections had increased until they were carried more by wealth than by merit. ["No, no!"] He was glad hon. Members opposite had any experience to the contrary. At all events, the expenses of elections were increasing. He thought if hon. Members looked into the case, they would find that the expenses had increased since 1868; but whether that were so or not, he believed they would all agree the expenses were quite large enough. Anything they could do, he thought, they ought to do, to diminish those expenses, and the prohibition to convey voters would diminish them. The point was that, by allowing the carriage of voters to the poll, they were opening the door to corrupt payments, for they were bound to keep them secret. At any rate, he thought the Amendment would have the effect of making an alteration, whereas all must allow a change was desirable. He understood that, in connection with a recent election, no less a sum than £3,000 had been expended in carriages for the conveyance of the voters. For himself, he had no sympathy with those who would drag the voter to the poll—being convinced that the votes recorded by earnest men who would take the trouble to go to the poll were politically worth more than the votes of those who would not go to the poll unless they were carried or dragged there. He sincerely hoped the House would pronounce against a state of the law which neither prohibited nor sanctioned the practice.
    SIR GEORGE BOWYER,rising to Order, said, there was considerable difference of opinion as to what the effect of carrying the Amendment would be, some holding that it would defeat the Bill, and others that it would not. It would be convenient if the Speaker would state what would really be the effect of carrying the Amendment.
    MR. SPEAKER: The carrying of the Amendment would have the effect of setting aside the second reading of the Bill for the moment; but a Motion for its second reading could again, at some future time, be proposed.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, although I think the Amendment of the hon. Baronet, if carried, would not have the effect of defeating the Bill, still we ought to consider seriously whether or not it is desirable that such an Amendment should be adopted at the present time. As I gather it, the feeling of the majority of those who have expressed their intention of voting for the Amendment appears to be that the law is in an unsatisfactory state, and that it ought to be settled in one way or another in this Bill. On that point all are agreed; but there is a great diversity of opinion as to what the nature of that settlement should be. Some say that the law ought to be altered in the sense of making it more strict, and carrying to a greater extent the prohibition of paying for the conveyance of voters. Others say that the law ought to be altered in the sense of giving the right of such payment. In fact, all agree in condemning the present state of things, just as two men might agree in condemning a glass of brandy and water—the one because he objected to the brandy, and the other because he objected to the water. The difficulty that I feel in accepting such an Amendment as that of the hon. Baronet is that we should be coming to a vote which would be in itself quite as ambiguous and uncertain as the present state of the law; and if I agree that it would be desirable that the law should be so far amended as to bring about a certainty, I think we had better adjourn a decision on that point until we have before us some proposition as to what the law ought to be, and then we can decide whether the proposition before us is one that we should adopt. For that purpose it is not necessary that we should adopt the Resolution now proposed. It is perfectly open to us to pass the second reading of the Bill, and when we come into Committee we can pass a clause or clauses for the purpose of dealing with this question. Any proposal can be perfectly well made in Committee. I do not at all deny that there is great force in some of the observations that have been made as to the inconvenience in the present state of the law. It is inconvenient with regard to any law that it should be uncertain. I am quite prepared to say that if a prac-
    1386
    tical proposal can be made in Committee on the Bill, which will render the law more certain than it is at present, it will deserve careful consideration; and the Government will adopt any proposition which may seem to them, on the whole, to be a fair and proper one. But I wish to call the attention of the House to the circumstances under which the Bill was introduced, and to the relation of this particular question to the Bill as a whole. In the year 1867, when we last had a complete review of the electoral system, the Government of the day made a proposal with regard to the method of voting, and the object which the Government at that time had in view was this—They were anxious to provide their constituents with the best possible means of recording their votes, without running any risk of corruption in the form of payment, nominally for the conveyance of voters, and the plan which the Government of the day proposed was the plan of voting papers. That plan was discussed in the House, and rejected on a Division by a majority of some 30 or 40 votes. Afterwards, in the House of Lords, a clause was put into the Bill to provide for the system of voting papers, and it came down to the House of Commons with that clause in it. The Government again supported it, with modifications; but were again defeated, so that the House decided against the system of voting papers. As to the mode in which voting was to be carried on in large constituencies and in large areas, that question was considered; and the result of a good deal of discussion was a compromise, by the terms of which payment for the conveyance of voters was made legal for counties and certain large agricultural boroughs, but altogether prohibited in the case of ordinary boroughs. That was the position in which the law was left by the measure of 1867. In addition to that measure, which laid down general principles, another Act was passed for the express purpose of dealing with the mode of trying charges of fraud and corruption at elections. That was a very great change in the law; for whereas before Committees of the House had always decided Election questions, it was by that measure left in the hands of a single Judge to invalidate an Election, and award penalties. It has been said that that Act gives too

    1387
    much power to the Judge; and other complaints have been made of such a character that it has become incumbent on the Government to invite the attention of the House to the proposed change. The Government have, therefore, introduced a Bill which we think will enable the House to deal with the question of the mode of dealing with Election Petitions and inflicting penalties upon persons guilty of corrupt practices. It has not, however, been thought necessary to revive the question of voting papers, or the question of the conveyance of voters; but there is no doubt that the question of the conveyance of voters is one that may very properly be introduced into the Bill, and it will be quite within the competence of the hon. Member for Chelsea, or any other hon. Member, to make proposals with regard to that point. Let a clause be introduced in any form which will commend itself to hon. Members, and we will deal with it; but, in the meantime, what I contend for is that we should commit an error if we declined to go on with this Bill until we had passed the abstract Resolution now proposed by the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea, which would only express the opinions of two bodies of Gentlemen diametrically opposed to each other. At the present moment I hope the House will not accept, and I would almost venture to hope that the hon. Baronet would withdraw, the Amendment; because, although it would not have the effect of defeating the Bill, it would certainly delay the second reading.
    MR. BIGGAR,in supporting the Amendment, said, with the permission of the House, he would narrate his personal experience of the inconvenience and injustice which the present system allowed. At one of the elections in the county for which he sat (Cavan), one of the agents of the candidates hired all the cars which were to be had in the neighbourhood, which was a manifest injustice to his opponent, who could not get any; while in other districts, where there were no cars to hire, the voters came up quite as well. He had been told that at some county elections in Ireland it was the custom for the car drivers to apply to the candidates to be allowed to bring up the voters to the poll; but that was before the present
    1388
    Act came into operation, and the result was a large increase in the expenses of the election.
    MR. CALLANsaid, what he most objected to in the Bill was the proposal to leave the decision in the trial of an Election Petition to a single Judge. In the case of the Election for Drogheda, a Petition was presented against the return of the hon. Member who sat for that county, and, according to the custom, that Petition, which was the first lodged in Court, should have been tried by the senior Judge on the rota—Mr. Justice Lawson. But soon afterwards a bye-election took place in Galway, and by some legerdemain, which had certainly caused considerable dissatisfaction in Ireland, the senior Judge was taken from Drogheda, and sent to try the Galway Petition. The Hon. Mr. Justice Barry tried the Drogheda Petition. A serious question arose in it, and a case was given which was taken to the Court of Common Pleas; and in that Court, if the usual course had been taken, the case would have been tried by the same Judge who tried it at Drogheda. That showed the necessity of having more than one Judge; because, had the case gone on in the instance he was quoting, a very substantial injustice would have been done, and the present Member for Drogheda would, no doubt, have been unseated. He hoped the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. O'Conor) would be enabled to go on with his Amendment.
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes 138; Noes 89: Majority 49.—(Div. List, No. 50.)
    Main Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."
    MR. O'CONOR,who had an Amendment on the Paper to the effect—
    "That no amendment of the Law relating to the trial of Election Petitions can be satisfactory which leaves the decision of such Petitions in the hands of a single Judge,"
    thought the principle of the measure would continue what was an objectionable feature in the mode of trying Election Petitions contained in the Act of 1868. When the Act was first passed which relegated the trying of Election Petitions from that House to one Judge, it was strongly condemned by some of the most experienced Members of that

    1389
    House, among others by Mr. Henley and Mr. Bouverie; and, finally, it had only passed as a temporary measure, which showed that the House felt a considerable amount of hesitation as to the necessity of passing it; and it was the first time in the history of the country that their dealings with such grave and serious offences were intrusted to the hands of one Judge. At that time, it might be said, they did not know how the Act would work; but when they saw it in operation in 1869, so far from any confidence being created in the new tribunals, the greatest dissatisfaction prevailed. Between 1869 and 1874 there were few Election Petitions tried of any interest, with the exception of the celebrated Galway Petition in 1872; and when, in 1873, he (Mr. O'Conor) brought the matter before the House, but very little attention was paid to it. In 1875, after the second batch of Petitions were tried in 1874, it created great interest, so much so, that be believed no less than five Members of the House of Commons endeavoured to bring the subject forward in that year. His hon. and learned Friend the Member for Dewsbury (Mr. Serjeant Simon) was fortunate in obtaining a alight for a Motion on the subject. A discussion ensued, and a Committee was appointed, which held sittings and took a great deal of valuable evidence. As in this Bill it was not proposed to give any appeal, he thought it would be most desirable to strengthen the Court which was to try Election Petitions. Nearly everyone whose opinion on the subject was worth having had been examined before the Committee, and, in particular, he might mention the names of Lord Justice Bramwell, Mr. Justice Keating, Mr. Justice Hawkins, and Serjeant Ballantine. The whole weight of the evidence went to show the desirability of strengthening the Court by the appointment of a second Judge. Lord Justice Bramwell had strongly urged the establishment of an appeal from the decision of a single Judge; but, in the event of there being no appeal, admitted the necessity of strengthening the original Court. Mr. Justice Keating had expressed himself to much the same effect, and added his testimony to that of the majority of the witnesses. The Committee itself, a very large and influential one, made a recommendation to the same effect. He admitted, however, that a
    1390
    minority of the Committee dissented from that recommendation, and that it had been resisted mainly on two grounds by the Government of the day; but the reasons given for dissenting were very inadequate. The first was that it would be casting a slur on the Judges to increase the number of them in the Court of First Instance; but when this change was asked for by the Judges themselves, he failed to see how it could be considered disrespectful to comply with their own request. Then it was said the number of Judges was so small that more than one could not be spared to try these Petitions; but that would be an equally good argument for not referring the Petitions to the Judges at all, and for allowing them to be tried by some other tribunal. He (Mr. O'Conor) did not believe there would be any difficulty in having more than one Judge in England, if the House were really desirous of having such a tribunal. In Ireland, certainly, there would be no difficulty in the matter. Whatever might be the difference of opinion in England in regard to the question, in Ireland there was practically unanimity on the subject. The entire public opinion of Ireland—the opinion of all the men of greatest weight—was in favour of enlarging the Court of First Instance, and not allowing Petitions to be tried by a single Judge. On the Committee to which he had referred there were four Irish Members, and they were unanimous in their Report. The right hon. and learned Gentleman the present Attorney General for Ireland (Mr. Gibson) was a Member of the Committee, and he proposed a draft Report, which he did not ultimately press, in favour of three Judges. He (Mr. O'Conor) thought that would be the best possible tribunal, and in Ireland, at all events, there would not be the slightest difficulty in getting the three Judges. There was, therefore, no practical reason why they should not have what they so unanimously desired. Mr. Justice Morris, the Chief Justice of the Court of Common Pleas, was examined before the Committee; and he said, in regard to the trial by a single Judge, that such a responsibility should not be imposed upon one man. His Lordship was thereupon asked if he thought the responsibility was too heavy for one. He replied that he did, because the public were not satisfied, and the

    1391
    Judge himself was not satisfied. The Chief Justice added that, so far as he knew public opinion, there was a general idea that there ought to be more than one Judge, and he believed he might say without presumption, that it was the opinion of the Judges themselves. The hon. Member for Cavan (Mr. Biggar), representing the most extreme section of Irishmen, shared the same view, for on the Irish Judicature Bill, he moved an Amendment embodying the same principle. Thus they had every class of opinion in Ireland united in favour of increasing the number of Judges to try Petitions in the first instance; and he could not, for the life of him, see why such an opinion should not be complied with. As he had said, he was personally in favour of three; but if they could not obtain three and could get two, then he would say that two were better than one. The Attorney General had asked what would be the condition of the unhappy candidate if the Judges disagreed; but, on the contrary, he considered he would be in a happy condition, because in such a case they would be obliged to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to retain his seat.
    MR. SERJEANT SIMONsaid, the Committee of 1875 was appointed on his Motion for the special purpose of inquiring into the constitution of the existing Election Tribunal. Under those circumstances, it was somewhat extraordinary, and scarcely respectful, that the Bill now brought in by the Government should entirely ignore the recommendation of the Committee upon that particular point. It was unconstitutional, he thought, to visit a candidate with heavy penal consequences upon the decision of a single Judge, and without the power of appeal. If the object in the proposal to appoint three Judges was to prevent a stigma attaching to a man in the event of two Judges being divided in opinion, nothing would be gained in that respect, for the adverse dicision of one Judge would still tell against him, though he were acquitted by the other two. His own opinion was that it was wrong to transfer the jurisdiction from the House itself, and that it was highly objectionable to take the Judges from their legitimate functions for the purpose of mixing them up in political squabbles.
    MR. O'DONNELLsaid, he rose with a sense of very considerable responsibility
    1392
    to move the rejection of the Bill. He was obliged to regard it largely from an Irish point of view, and should be compelled to trouble the House with some references to Irish considerations. This, perhaps, might be imputed to him as a fault; but it was from no wish on his own part that he was obliged to take the course which he had indicated. The Bill was entitled one to "amend and continue the Acts relating to Election Petitions, and to the prevention of Corrupt Practices at Parliamentary Elections;" but he was obliged to regard it rather as a Bill to maintain and extend the abuses now existing under the present most objectionable law. The Bill did not propose to effect a change in reference to any one of the important protections demanded by the necessities of Ireland. The only changes which the Bill would introduce were either trifling, or would distinctly worsten the existing law. Before dealing with the more serious portion of the objections he had to bring against the Bill, he would refer to one or two of the less important changes which the Bill would have the effect of introducing. The hon. and learned Attorney General had told the House that under this Bill the Election Judge was to be entitled to complain of reticence or concealment of facts by parties to an Election Petition tried before him. That, he (Mr. O'Donnell) thought, raised a very important question. At present, an Election Petition took the form of a private complaint, urged for private reasons, the main reason, on the part of the petitioner, being to secure a seat in Parliament; and he would ask whether, under such circumstances, the Petitioner was bound to prove, not only as many facts as he could bring forward in support of his own side of the question, but was also to act the part of a public inquirer, and bring forward a full and true account of the entire state of the constituency which he sought to represent? If he was expected to do this, he would have laid upon him, as a private individual, a public duty, without any commensurate power, or remuneration, or protection. It would, in fact, be putting upon the promoters of Election Petitions the duties of public prosecutors, and entirely change the position in which they at present appeared before the Election Petition Judges; and, at the same time,

    1393
    exacting from them payment for duties, the cost of which ought to fall upon the public funds. Again, the Bill did not propose to increase the number of Election Judges, or to change the character of the Tribunal which had to decide upon charges brought against candidates who had, in the first instance, been declared successful by the Returning Officer. It would leave to single Judges in Ireland the power which they possessed at present, and which the united voice of the Irish people—as had been stated in the most moderate, careful, and temperate speech of the hon. Member for Sligo (Mr. O'Conor)—declared that they had, in several instances, and notably in some, most grievously abused. It was not through any predilection on his part, or by any will or desire of his own, that he was compelled to challenge the character of the Tribunal to which Election Petitions were referred—that was a necessity theoretically imposed upon all Members of the House, when Judges were made the final tribunal for the trial of Election cases; but Irish Members were under a special responsibility, because, under this Bill, it would be in the power of a single Judge, who had been appointed by an anti-National Government, opposed to the best interests of the Irish people, and for Party reasons, to cancel the deliberate choice of a great Irish constituency. This was not a power which should be allowed to go unchallenged by the Members of the Irish Party sitting in that House. He bogged to be understood as bringing no charges against the judicial authority or the judicial function. He should not be speaking in accordance with the feelings of the Irish people, were he wilfully or wantonly to depreciate the judicial office. Old English writers upon Ireland and the Irish people had recognized the innate respect for justice and law among the Irish people. He thoroughly recognized that there must be good ground for the universal belief of Englishmen in the purity and impartiality of the British Judicial Bench; but he was, at the same time, bound to say that there was no such prevailing belief in Ireland. The Irish Judges had, again and again, and might again and again, been chosen to their office, not for their legal knowledge, or for distinction in their Profession; but because they had been partisans, and had supported—often un-
    1394
    scrupulously—the designs of the Government of the day. They had not shrunk, in climbing up to their distinguished office, from functions and acts which must leave a permanent stain upon the judicial ermine with which they were afterwards clothed. Under this Bill, it would still be possible for a Judge, in the face of evidence, and of the universal voice of the country, to denounce, in the grossest and vilest terms, the most venerated personages in Ireland; to single out for language of insult, contumely, and obloquy, men so esteemed—not only within the Irish shores, but beyond the Atlantic Ocean, and on distant continents—as the venerable and venerated John, Archbishop of Tuam; and to treat as quasi-felons, as persons among the vilest of creatures, men who filled the positions of Bishops, distinguished laymen, and popular leaders in Ireland. Under this Bill, the Judge would be able not only to insult individuals, but to defraud constituencies; for he would be able, in the face of universal and official evidence, to invent stories of undue influence and intimidation, without its being possible, even in that House, to appeal against their decisions and the charges which they might choose to make. Prom one end of Ireland to the other the allusions which he was making would be understood, and the justice of the charges which he alleged would be universally recognized. The Bill was one to trim the balance against popular candidates in favour of the undue influence of wealth. It was not for him to impute to the Government, individually or collectively, any deliberate intention to bring in a Bill with so noxious a design; but he was entitled to suppose that men so revered for their intelligence—at least by the Members of their own Party—must have a pretty good idea of the scope and bearing of the measure which they had introduced; and when a Government, representing to a large extent the wealthy and privileged classes, brought in a Bill in favour of offences which rich men were most likely to commit, without allowing an appeal to the popular class, they must know that such a Bill would produce its natural consequences. Let him take a case in illustration of what he meant. There was, say, a constituency in which a wealthy candidate supported by able agents was opposed to a poor candidate who had little on

    1395
    which to rely except popular support and sympathy. The rich man was able by means of bribery to secure his election; but the friends and supporters of the poor candidate were determined, if possible, to test the return, which they knew to be unjust. With great difficulty, for wealth might not be very abundant on the popular side, they provided the necessary securities for a Petition and the funds for the conduct of the inquiry as far as their side was concerned—namely, for the fees of counsel and the maintenance of witnesses. This, however, was but the initial stage; and after a long and costly inquiry the wealthy criminal was proved to be guilty, and the just sentence was passed upon him of exclusion from a seat which he ought never to have obtained, although at the same time he was recognized as a man who, by the skilful use of the means at his hand, had very nearly bought the seat and defeated the proper aspirations of the popular branch of the constituency. He knew that although the popular conscience had judged him guilty, and although the acumen of the Judge who tried the Petition had penetrated the finesse of the schemes by which he had debauched the constituency, he was still wealthy and had another chance on a future occasion. He tried that chance, and having been found guilty before, he had a double interest in expending, if necessary, the whole of his fortune rather than fail now. Every possible effort would now be made, for he had got his second Court of Appeal, and he lavished money in order to whitewash himself. The loyal party had been drained dry, and probably exhausted, at the previous stage; and the Government proposed to give to the wealthy offender the proverbial advantage of wealth by enabling him to carry his case from tribunal to tribunal, and so to exhaust the means if he could not defeat the justice of the cause of the poorer candidate. He could only describe this Bill as a deliberate attempt to facilitate the escape of wealthy criminals—who were criminals by means of their wealth. The Government adduced the heavy penalties attaching to bribery as a reason for making the distinction; but the penalties were either too heavy, or they were too just. If they were too just, let them remain; if they were too heavy, let them
    1396
    be lightened; but neither the one argument nor the other was a justification for facilitating the escape of the briber. In a case of the kind he had sketched, although the injustice was notorious, although the candidate might have been heavily punished for his just ambition, and, perhaps, crippled in his means for life by an unjust judgment, and his constituents defrauded of their just and Constitutional rights, Her Majesty's Government did not propose to give any redress. The reason for this was that the Government was not on the side of popular candidates; but, judging from their proceedings in reference to this Bill, might be said to be on the side of the possible bribers. The Bill, instead of proposing to improve anything proposed, would have the effect, in most essential points, to worsten the existing law. He, therefore, felt bound to move its rejection at the present stage; and he should feel bound, as would every Member representing the popular Party in Ireland in that House, to offer to it the most unrelenting opposition which was permitted by the Forms of the House. In conclusion, he said, with a full sense of the responsibility attaching to the words he used, and in the presence of his Colleagues from Ireland that were in that House a score of Members belonging to the Irish popular Party, the confirmation of whose elections in future, if Petitions were presented against them, would depend entirely upon whether or not those Petitions were tried before certain well-known and thoroughly appreciated Judges now sitting on the Irish Bench. He begged to move that the Bill be read the second time on that day six months.
    MR. GREGORYsaid, he had had some difficulty in following the hon. Member opposite (Mr. O'Donnell) through the observations he had made, and in comprehending the drift of them or the point to which they were directed. It seemed to him that they consisted principally in a denunciation of the Irish Bench, which, if true, rendered that Bench totally incompetent for the administration of justice; and that, if the administration was committed to one, or to half-a-dozen Judges, it must be equally bad, and must constitute an equally incompetent tribunal [Mr. O'DONNELL: No, no!] But surely if the Judges were all as bad as the hon. Member had

    1397
    stated, it would not be possible to get a satisfactory tribunal, though half-a-dozen sat at once. In fact, it would only be an aggravation of the evil. This was not, in his view, the proper way in which to deal with the question, which was, whether the House should or should not adopt the proposal under discussion, and relegate the trial of Election Petitions to single Judges, as was now the case, improved as the present system would be in certain cases by the operation of the Bill; or whether they should adopt the suggestion of the Committee, and relegate the trial of each Petition to two Judges. As far he knew, there was no Court of First Instance, except a Court of Petty Sessions, in which two Judges sat; but he had, in the course of his professional experience, found the inconvenience of having two Judges, even in a Court of Appeal, because it almost necessarily followed that, with two Judges, frequently there would be a difference of opinion; and in the case of a Court consisting of a strong Judge and a weak one, the weak Judge would defer to the strong one, and so bring the Court of Appeal down to a Court of one Judge, whereas, if they differed, the judgment of the Court below was imported into the case, and it was, in fact, decided by that. But if two Judges sat in a Court of First Instance and disagreed, there could be no decision at all. He admitted that a Court of three Judges to try Election Petitions would be preferable; but that would be impracticable, because, after a General Election, followed by numerous Petitions, the judicial strength of the country would be unequal to the task. The Government had, therefore, and very wisely as he thought, determined to leave matters as at present, with the addition of an appeal under certain circumstances. It seemed to him a question whether the power of appeal which was proposed should be extended, and, if so, what should be the limit, because there was a danger in widening too much the door to appeal in reference to matters in which personal feeling weighed so much as in Election Petitions. In Chancery, matters of the highest importance were tried by single Judges, and, in the majority of cases, the decisions arrived at were accepted by the parties. The hon. Member for Dungarvan had
    1398
    referred to the licence which was allowed to Judges when speaking from the Bench; and he (Mr. Gregory) could not see, even if his allegation was true, how any increase in the number of Judges could possibly diminish that evil. On the whole, then, the case was one of a choice between difficulties; and he thought the House would do wisely to accept the proposals which the Government had embodied in the present Bill.
    MR. SHAW LEFEVREwas inclined to agree with the hon. Member who had just spoken (Mr. Gregory), when he expressed the opinion that the Government had exercised a wise discretion in declining to accept the recommendations of the Committee, and refer these matters to two Judges. No doubt, the recommendations of that Committee were entitled to great respect; but it appeared to him there were difficulties in the way of carrying out that proposal. The difficulties, for instance, which had been pointed out by the hon. and learned Attorney General he thought were unanswerable. Take one of these. Supposing the two Judges differed as to whether the Member had been personally guilty of bribery. It would be an extremely unsatisfactory thing for a Member to sit in that House under such circumstances. He certainly could not sit with any case or confidence when one of the Judges who had tried the case was of opinion he had been personally guilty of bribery. As to the proposal that there should be three Judges, no doubt, if that could be done, it would constitute a superior tribunal; but they could not get over the difficulty that it would be impossible to spare three Judges from the ordinary judicial tribunals of the country. For his own part, he must say he was not altogether favourable to trying these cases at all by the Judges; and he was inclined to think the House would do better to revert to the old state of things, and try the cases by their own Committees. One of the main arguments for substituting Judges was that there would be a great saving of expense; but all he could say was that the expenses, instead of having been lessened, had been considerably increased, because of the high fees which had to be paid to counsel to go down to the place where the case had to be tried. Having had some experience of this matter, and having sat on Election Com-

    1399
    mittees, he had arrived at the conclusion that they acted most fairly; that they were juries of a very high class; and that, upon the whole, they formed a better tribunal than the existing one. No doubt, the Judges of the High Court of Judicature gave very impartial judgments upon questions of law; but he did not think, as a rule, they were quite so competent to deal with questions of fact as a Committee composed of Members of that House. For these reasons, he thought it would be better to revert to the old plan, and let the Committees of that House deal with these matters, and not a Judge of one of the Superior Courts.
    MR. COGANsaid, it was greatly to be regretted that a matter of such importance as this should have come on at a time when it could not be properly discussed, so many hours having been taken up with a matter of minor importance. He did not think it was possible to exaggerate the vast importance of the questions dealt with in the Bill, affecting, as they did, the Privileges of the House, and also touching Constitutional matters. He therefore hoped that his hon. Friend the Member for Sligo (Mr. O'Conor), who had made a most able speech, would renew the subject when the Bill got into Committee, so that it might be discussed in a manner worthy of its importance. He looked upon it as an anomalous state of things, and one that had been attended with injury, that it should form any part of the permanent legislation of the country to give such great powers to a single Judge. The hon. and learned Attorney General had been obliged to admit that it was no longer to be tolerated that great personal disabilities should attach to any individual on the ground of personal bribery merely on the decision of a single Judge. That was no longer to be allowed to continue, and there was to be a right of appeal in case of a Judge giving such a decision. He would not detain the House with any further remarks on the present occasion; but he hoped that when they arrived at the next stage of the Bill, they would be able to discuss its provisions at the length which they deserved.
    SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAconfessed that, although he could not say much in favour of the Bill, he thought it would do very little harm, and they might
    1400
    make some good out of it when they got into Committee. He agreed with some observations made in the earlier part of the evening. The question of the Privileges of that House was first raised, and its principle insisted upon, in the reign of Queen Elizabeth. Before then, the Common Pleas tried these cases like ordinary jury cases. The principle of that House being a complete Court of itself, and defending its own Privileges, led to the change, and to the substitution of Committees of that House for the settlement of these matters; and his opinion was that if they were not now to go back to the Court established by themselves, they ought to revert to the principle of trial by jury. But as a Peer was tried by his Peers, perhaps it would be better to adopt the Committees of this House to try Election Petitions, assisted by legal assessors. The hon. and learned Attorney General had said he would consider any suggestions in Committee, and, no doubt, it would be necessary to make some extensive alterations in the Bill when they got to the clauses.
    MR. CALLANsaid, while it was true no stigma had been cast upon, or objections raised to, the character and decisions of the English Judges, yet in Ireland the case was different, for there they had Judges who were undeniably partizans, and they had been raised to the Bench from the political arena. The hon. Member for Drogheda owed his seat simply because Mr. Justice Lawson did not try his case. He (Mr. Callan) had the honour of being elected at the the last Election for two constituencies—Louth and Dundalk—and when he was before the electors of Louth, he urged them to elect him, because, if he was petitioned against, he knew Mr. Justice Lawson could not try both cases. He made that statement boldly at the time, because he believed it. If a Petition had been presented against his return for the borough of Dundalk, and it was to have been tried before Mr. Justice Lawson, he should not have had the temerity to defend the seat. He would have retired, and allowed another Member to come in, knowing he had another seat to fall back upon. If they would take three Judges in Ireland, he should have the most perfect confidence in their judgment. He should like to point out that there were other parties

    1401
    in this matter besides the Members themselves who required some consideration. In the case of the Galway Petition, the Judge sentenced the Archbishop of Tuam to what he (Mr. Callan) might term seven years' penal servitude. [Laughter.] He heard some hon. Gentleman laugh; but it was true; and when the case came before the present Chief Baron of the Exchequer Court in Ireland, a Judge respected by everyone who knew him, he declared that there was no case whatever to justify him in acting on behalf of the Crown, and proceeding against the Archbishop. Yet if there was an Election to-morrow for the County of Galway, that sentence of penal servitude from the exercise of the franchise would remain against one of the most respected Bishops or Archbishops of the Roman Catholic Church in Ireland. The Attorney General for Ireland, in that case, declared he could not put the Archbishop on his trial. Why should not this House give to parties placed in a similar position to that of the Archbishop of Tuam a right of appeal, in order to clear their characters from such a stigma as seven years' penal exclusion from the exercise of the franchise?
    MR. BIGGAR,thought there were some things connected with corrupt practices and Election Petitions to which he was justified in calling attention. He thought the Bill took an entirely wrong line in regard to the matter of appeals. It gave the right of appeal to a man who had been pronounced by the one Judge to be guilty of personal bribery; while to the man who was less guilty, but who might still lose his seat, because of the bribery of his agents, it gave no appeal. Therefore, the man who was the more guilty was to have the chance of getting his case re-heard by a Court of Appeal, and this right was to be denied to the man who had been found less guilty; but who, nevertheless, had to suffer the loss of his seat. He therefore thought, when the hon. and learned Attorney General got the Bill into Committee, he would do well to look at that branch of the case, and see if he could not extend the right of appeal. Now, as to the question of corrupt practices. In drawing a Bill of this sort, it would have been well if clauses had been introduced pointing out certain things which should be held to be bribery in cases of
    1402
    contested elections. There was one kind of bribery which was very common in some constituencies, and that was the employment of paid canvassers. This system gave room for an immense amount of indirect bribery; and this kind of bribery ought, if possible, to be put down, because it really demoralized a larger number of people than direct bribery did. A man would not ask for a direct payment for his vote, provided he could get employment for himself, his hangers-on, and any of his acquaintances. He would support a candidate being thus indirectly bribed for his vote. There was another kind of bribery which was also very common in some districts—namely, the bribery of attorneys. The agent who was himself a lawyer would employ other lawyers right and left, whether they were required or not, and whether they were competent to give value for their money or not. Some of the charges made by these people were most exorbitant. He had heard of one case where an attorney insisted upon a fee of 200 guineas for his services at an election, though it could not be pretended that he gave either time or money's worth to that extent; and he simply professed to have influenced a large number of people, because he belonged to a particular religious party. He thought a clause ought to be introduced to put down a fraudulent system of bribery like that. But there was a kind of bribery much worse than that of the attorneys—which was the bribery of the public Press. He had had some experience of that. He was a candidate for the City of Derry, against the present sitting Member and Mr. Pallas. On that occasion a charge was made to him of over £100 by The Derry Journal, and one of the items was for 15 s. 10 d. for some printing, which on another occasion he got a local printer to do for 1s. 6d. They threatened him with legal proceedings for the £100; but they ultimately took £30 less the account. He would give them another illustration. In the borough of Belfast, the successful candidates were supposed to be, more or less, the popular candidates. One was brought forward by the Whig Party, and the other by the Independent Orange Party. These two coalesced against the old-fashioned Conservative. The Northern Whig advocated the cause of the Orange candidate, Sir Thomas

    1403
    M'Clure, in an article one day, which someone suggested should be printed off in slips and circulated. The result was, an order was given for a supply, and afterwards a most exorbitant charge was made for the slips, though Sir Thomas M'Clure paid the money manfully. At the General Election of 1874, this same newspaper sent him an account for £500 or £600, and he only paid £400. With such cases as these in view, he would suggest that they should put a clause into the Bill that any newspaper which furnished an account charging more than ordinary prices should be disqualified from receiving any payment whatever, and the proprietor should be liable to be prosecuted, the same as the unfortunate man was liable to be who asked for money for his vote.
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes 118; Noes 6: Majority 112.—(Div. List, No. 50.)
    Bill read a second time, and committed for Thursday next.

  WAYS AND MEANS.
  Resolutions [March 19] reported, and agreed to.
  Ordered, That a Bill be brought in upon the said Resolutions; and that Mr. RAIKES, Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, and Sir HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON do prepare and bring it in.
  Bill presented, and read the first time.

MOTIONS.
  LUNACY LAW AMENDMENT BILL.

    LEAVE. FIRST READING.
    MR. DILLWYN,in moving for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Laws relating to Lunatics, said, it was founded on the Report of the Select Committee which sat to inquire into the subject last year and the year before. They recommended that the confinement and treatment of lunatics should be hedged round by additional safeguards beyond those which were provided by the existing law, and to that, as well as to some other recommendations of the Committee, he proposed to give effect. He regretted that the subject had not been taken up by the Government, because they would probably have deemed it to be their
    1404
    duty to introduce a more comprehensive measure than he, as a private Member, could expect to carry. He should be glad to see them bring in a Bill to consolidate all the Lunacy Laws; but, in the absence of any such proposal, he hoped they would, at all events, support a measure which would, he believed, make a substantial improvement in the law as it now stood.
    Motion agreed to.
    Bill to amend the Laws relating to Lunatics, ordered to be brought in by Mr. DILLWYN, Sir GEORGE BALFOUR, and Mr. HERSCHELL.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 111.]

    LAND TAX COMMISSIONERS' NAMES BILL.
    On Motion of Sir HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON, Bill to appoint additional Commissioners for executing the Acts for granting a Land Tax and other Rates and Taxes, ordered to be brought in by Sir HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON and Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 109.]

    GENERAL POLICE AND IMPROVEMENT (SCOTLAND) PROVISIONAL OBDER (PAISLEY) BILL.
    On Motion of The LORD ADVOCATE, Bill to confirm a Provisional Order under "The General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Act, 1862," relating to the burgh of Paisley, ordered to be brought in by The LORD ADVOCATE and Mr. Secretary CROSS.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 110.]
    House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—District Auditors* (30).
Committee—Medical Act, 1858, Amendment (16–31).
Report—Bankruptcy Law Amendment* (8).
Third Reading—Marine Mutiny Act (Temporary) Continuance*; Mutiny Act (Temporary) Continuance, * and passed.

NAVY—H.M.S. "BOADICEA."

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD COLVILLE OF CULROSSsaid, he wished to put a Question to the noble Earl the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, of which he had given him private Notice. It was, Whether it is true that, in consequence of the refusal of the local authorities at the Cape of Good Hope to allow some cases of small-pox to be sent ashore from H.M.S. "Boadicea" on her arrival at Simon's Bay from the West Coast of
  1290
  Africa on the 28th of January last, six days after the disaster at Isandlana, that vessel was compelled to remain at anchor and in quarantine in Simon's Bay during a period when her presence and that of her crew would have been of the utmost importance towards re-inforcing the troops and inspiring confidence in Natal. The Boadicea arrived at Simon's Bay from England; but on her way had touched at some ports on the West Coast of Africa, and in this way, unfortunately, small-pox got on board—so that on her arrival at Simon's Bay she had 13 cases on board. Her captain applied for permission to land these sick men; but leave was refused. He made a second application to be allowed to land them at a point of land which projected into the sea, where they would be completely isolated from the population in the neighbourhood; but this was also refused, and he was told he must remain in quarantine at anchor, and at the expiration of 21 days after the recovery of the last case he would be allowed praticque. The unfortunate ship was consequently detained pitching and tossing in Simon's Bay, exposed to a strong south-easterly wind, and it was not likely that with such treatment the epidemic could be stamped out. In February a fresh outbreak took place, affecting two officers and 23 men, amongst them being Captain Romilly. His was an aggravated case, and the greatest fears were entertained of his life; but he was happy to say that his life had been spared, to the great relief of his numerous friends in this country. He had now been invalided, and would come home. Sanitary precautions were, no doubt, all very well; but the Colonial official mind, in this case, appeared to have come to the conclusion that it was of much more importance to keep smallpox out of Simon's Bay than to send this magnificent ship on to Natal at a moment when her presence would have been of the utmost importance. He thought his inquiry of so much importance that he had ventured to bring the matter under the notice of the House.
  EARL CADOGAN,in reply, said, that the facts were as stated by his noble Friend. Since the occurrence had become known, the Secretary of State for the Colonies had made strong representations to the Cape Government, with a view to induce it to modify its quaran-

  1291
  tine regulations. With reference to his noble Friend's statement that the presence of the Boadicea and her crew would have been of the utmost importance towards re-inforcing the troops and inspiring confidence in Natal—it was, no doubt, important to re-inforce the troops at the Cape; but he thought it more than doubtful that troops just landed from a ship in which there was small-pox would have been brigaded with the other troops. He must also say that he could hardly agree with his noble Friend that the presence of such persons would be calculated to inspire confidence at Natal.

MEDICAL ACT, 1858, AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 16.)
(The Lord President.)
MEDICAL ACT, 1858, AMENDMENT BILL—(No. 16.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into Committee, read.
  Moved, "That the House be now put into Committee on the Bill."—[The Lord President.)
  LORD EMLY: My Lords, I had not the opportunity of making any remarks on the second reading of this Bill; therefore, I trust your Lordships will allow me to occupy your time for a few moments on the present occasion, and I shall presently move an Amendment in Committee, which, if the noble Duke accepts it, will give great satisfaction to the Profession in Ireland. The object of this Bill, as your Lordships are aware, is to amend the Act of 1858. The chief object of that Act was, as far as possible, to provide that no person should be placed on the Medical Register without having passed a proper examination. Unfortunately, there were no fewer than 19 distinct Licensing Bodies, each of which had the power of fixing their own standard of examination. The fact of there being so large a body of co-equal authorities, it was thought, would render them likely to underbid, each other; and many of them might set up a low standard of examination in order to induce students to come to them. In order to meet that difficulty, by the 20th and 21st clauses of the Act of 1858, the General Council was empowered, in case of any of these Bodies falling short in that respect, to appeal to the Privy Council; and if the Privy Council were convinced that the examinations were
  1292
  not efficient, they were empowered to suspend the right of registration in respect of qualifications granted by the College or other Body in default. Now, I believe that both the noble Duke and the noble Marquess the late President of the Council will testify to the fact that there never has been an instance where this power has been exercised. These 19 independent Bodies, with their separate examinations, have continued up to this day. Now, without troubling your Lordships with any remarks of my own upon that subject, I will state a fact which occurred not long ago as to the way in which they have underbid each other. In February last a gentleman, a licentiate surgeon of the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland, presented himself for examination before the College of Physicians; but he showed such ignorance, that the Examiners were unanimous in rejecting him. Within a fortnight or three weeks, however, he sought and obtained, after a special examination, a licence to practise medicine from the College of Physicians of Edinburgh. A fact of that sort must convince your Lordships of the absolute necessity of putting a stop to this system of competition amongst these different Bodies, and securing a uniformity of examination. An obvious way to do this was suggested by the noble and learned Lord the Lord Chancellor some eight or nine years ago. What he suggested was, that there should be one Examination Board for the United Kingdom; that nobody should be allowed to present himself before that Body who had not a certificate from one of these 19 Bodies, and that no one should be placed on the Register, and be qualified as a medical practitioner, without having received a certificate from the Central Body. But both the noble Duke and the noble Marquess agreed that there would be so many difficulties in the way of carrying out that proposal, that they could not adopt it. With great respect to them, however, I do not see that these difficulties are so great. I think the thing resolves itself into a very simple one—a question of money. It was, beyond doubt, necessary that the Examining Body should hold the examinations in London, Edinburgh, and Dublin, and it would be impossible to get eminent men to act as Examiners without paying them

  1293
  highly; but, if only in the interest of the poorer classes, who cannot, like your Lordships, choose the medical men who are to attend them, I think it would be well to defray from the Public Exchequer whatever might be necessary to carry into effect an improved system. All, however, I now ask is to make the scheme of the noble Duke as perfect as it can be made. His scheme is, that there should be a Conjoint Board for each portion of the United Kingdom—that is, one in London, one in Dublin, and one in Edinburgh—and that the examinations should be conducted by these different Boards, to a certain extent under the control of the General Medical Council. This has been described by the College of Physicians of Ireland as a plan by which the Examining Bodies would be reduced from 19 to three—one for each Kingdom. I confess, however, with great respect, that I do not think the noble Duke goes far enough. It appears to me his Bill of last Session, which provided that the General Medical Council should frame the standard of examinations which was to be carried out by the Conjoint Board, was a Bill much more likely to be successful than the Bill now proposed, because that sort of control which he imagines the General Medical Council will exercise over the standard of examinations to be framed by the Conjoint Boards is not likley to be successful. I appeal to the experience of the last 20 years, and I point out to the noble Duke that the General Medical Council have the power to interfere, and they have never once interfered; and, certainly, I think the Amendment which I shall hereafter move will work better than the proposal of the noble Duke. Your Lordships ought to have some security that persons shall not be allowed to practice without having a sufficient knowledge for their Profession. I shall be glad to hear any reasons which the noble Duke may urge why there should not be a uniformity in the examinations, and why this should not be secured by allowing the General Medical Council to fix those examinations. If that is done, there will be much greater hope that the Bill will work successfully.
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH: My Lords, I have just now presented a Petition from the Faculty of Physicians
  1294
  and Surgeons of Glasgow, praying that the Bill may not pass in its present shape. They say such an organic change in the mode of granting licences, however desirable, can only be justified for the reason that under the present system there have been evils which call for redress. It appears to me that this measure, so far from inquiring into that matter first, and then legislating upon it if necessary afterwards, is about to legislate first, and then inquire afterwards. What the Petitioners object to is, that the Universities of Scotland are, for the first time, to be deprived of the rights given to them by Charter, and by the Legislature, for the licensing of students for the practice of medicine and surgery. With regard to the Universities of Scotland, there are three which have great medical schools. The students in these schools have to pass the most stringent examinations; they have Professors, who, though they might have large private practices, yet have for their primary duties the duties of instruction; and, in addition to the examination by the Professors, there are independent Examiners selected by the Senatus Academicus from the most eminent men in the Profession. These gentlemen assist in the examinations, and they keep up a very high standard indeed. I believe that the University of Edinburgh, and the School of Medicine in that University, is second to none in Europe. Moreover, at the present moment, large sums are being expended in Edinburgh to make the power of giving efficient instruction greater. I think the best plan would be to send this Bill to a Select Committee or to a Royal Commission, who would be better able to thoroughly investigate it than a Committee of this House. The Bill deals with a subject of the utmost importance; and, judging from the Schedule, it would take a person many hours to ascertain what is the present law, and what is to be struck out of it, and what made new. I object to patchwork legislation of this kind—we ought to go about legislation of this nature properly. The noble Lord opposite (Lord Emly) has stated that he knew an instance of a student having got a certificate from the Edinburgh University within three weeks of having been rejected either in England or Ireland. I shall be glad if the noble Lord will inform me of the name of the individual,

  1295
  in order that I may make particular inquiry into the matter—for I can hardly conceive such a thing to be possible.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he would not reply to the remarks of the noble Lord (Lord Emly) then, as the whole subject would be raised when they got into Committee on the 15th clause. With regard to the suggestion of his noble Friend behind him (the Duke of Buccleuch)—that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee—he could not concur with his noble Friend and the Petitioners that any further inquiry on the subject was necessary.
  Motion agreed to; House in Committee accordingly.
  Clauses 1 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 5 (Attaching of licentiate to medical authority by holding medical diploma).
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPON: My Lords, before this clause passes, I wish to say a few words in reference to it. I do not propose to divide the House; but I must say the clause appears to establish an inconvenient and clumsy system. I know very well what are the difficulties which beset this question; and I am so well satisfied with having obtained, under previous clauses of the Bill, the establishment within no very long period of Conjoint Boards of Examination in each of the three divisions of the Kingdom, that I will not press my noble Friend to strike out this clause at the risk of the failure of the main principle of the Bill, more especially because I am convinced that, if this Bill pass, this clumsy inconvenience will not be found in existence very long. I may be allowed to call your Lordships' attention to the system which this clause establishes. Under clauses already passed, there are set up three Conjoint Boards of Examination—one in each division of the Kingdom—one in England, one in Scotland, and another in Ireland. After their establishment, no person will be able to get his name placed on the Register until he has passed an adequate examination before one of these Boards, which examination is to be of such a character that it will give the public the security that every person whose name appears upon the Medical Register has a certain definite minimum amount of medical and
  1296
  surgical knowledge. It would seem natural, when that system is established, that the man who passed such an examination should be at once put upon the Medical Register; but the Bill, as it stands under this 5th clause, proposes to interpose between the examination and the placing of the individual upon the Eegister—a process of this description: a person who has passed an examination, and who is therefore proved to be qualified to practise, is required to make application to one of the 19 Medical Bodies of the country, to ask them to attach him to their body. If the authority he petitions should either refuse to attach him, or neglect to do so for one month, he can go to the registrar, with his qualifying certificate, and get his name placed upon the Register. It appears to me that this would establish a very inconvenient system, which would be disadvantageous alike to the public and to the Medical Corporations and to the individuals who have to pass the examinations. It would be inconvenient to the public, because it would tend to deprive them, at least in appearance, of the great advantage of the system of examinations. That great advantage is that, whereas now the fact of a man's name being on the Register does not show that he possesses a definite qualification, hereafter he is not to be put on the Register without having a defined and distinct qualification. Having established particular and uniform examinations throughout the Kingdom, the 5th clause will introduce a sort of vague and imaginary distinction between the persons whose names will appear on the Register. Under the clause, they will be divided into practitioners attached to Medical Authorities and practitioners who are not. There will be no difference in the qualification, for the certificates will have been given at the same examinations. It will simply imply that some Medical Body, in their own discretion, has attached one man and refused to attach another. The public will think this implies some disqualification on the part of the person who has not been attached. This clause will prevent the Medical Register from bearing that simple and single character of qualification, to secure which is one of the objects of this Bill. It seems to me that the clause will not operate to the advantage of the Medical Corporations them-

  1297
  selves. As the clause stood before the noble Duke amended it, it would undoubtedly have operated to their financial benefit, as they would have been able to charge fees for attaching. But my noble Friend, who never intended that this should be done, has cleared up the matter by the Amendment he has introduced. What will happen? Why, either that the Medical Corporations will attach everyone who applies, that the whole thing will become illusory and a sham, or they will largely exercise their power of refusing to attach; and after a time, when the public finds that those who are attached and those who are not attached have exactly the same qualification, the tendency will be to discredit attachment to the Medical Corporations, and probably to discredit the Corporations themselves, or, at all events, to lower the value of attachment to those belonging to the Corporations. I have no doubt the system established under this clause would be rapidly swept away if there were a considerable number of persons left unattached. As regards the individuals who pass the examinations, I do not think it is right that, when a person has passed a strict examination before one of these Conjoint Boards, which, on the hypothesis on which the Bill is founded, gives all adequate security for his competence to practise medicine and surgery, you should force him, whether he likes it not, to go and ask one of these Corporations to attach him to their Body, at the same time that you place no relative obligation on the Corporation to accept him when he so applies. I consider that this clause will place those who have passed a satisfactory examination in an unfair position, or, at least, in one to which they ought not to be subjected. It seems to me to cast an unjust slur upon persons who do not obtain the attachment which, under this clause, they are required to sue for. It may be asked why I do not ask you to strike out the clause? It may not be expedient that I should do so, though I am satisfied that the clause is an unnecessary one, and that it will prove a sham in its working. The noble Duke had, no doubt, some reason for introducing it, and it may be that he could not very well have done without it. I felt it my duty to make this protest against the clause in question, though, so far as the Bill itself is concerned, I
  1298
  hope it will pass through Parliament without any very material alteration. I do not propose to divide the House upon the clause; but it was due to your Lordships and to the public that I should explain my view upon the point.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONthought that after the statement of the noble Marquess it was incumbent upon him to say a few words. He was glad to find that the clause was not to be opposed. He did not think, however, that the noble Marquess, had he even been sitting on that side of the House, would have felt justified in taking any other course than the one he had taken. In legislating on this subject, their Lordships were bound to pay attention to existing Bodies on matters of this kind; and after considerable communications with them on this subject, he found that he could not anticipate the successful issue of the Bill without that clause.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 6 to 14, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 15 (Examination rules for securing uniformity of examinations for qualification).
  LORD EMLY,in accordance with what he had stated, proposed to amend the clause by placing in the hands of the General Medical Board the duty of framing the rules and regulations for the examination of persons desiring to be placed on the General Register, to be applicable to all parts of the United Kingdom. He proposed to strike out the first words of the clause—"The Medical Authorities of each part of the United Kingdom. … shall, subject to the approval of" the General Medical Council, frame, &c., the effect of which would be to place upon the General Medical Council itself that duty. He intended also to move an addition to the first section—
  "So that in all respects the curriculum of study, subjects for examination, standards for passing, and fees payable, shall be alike in each part of the United Kingdom."
  Amendment moved, in line 1, leave out from ("The") to ("approval of,") in line 6, both inclusive.—(The Lord Emly.)
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, he certainly thought that the proposal which his noble Friend made was one which, if

  1299
  adopted, would improve the Bill. The proposal of the noble Duke was, that the existing Medical Authorities should have the preparation of these examinations and rules, and when they had prepared them, they should be subjected to the approval of the Medical Council. In all previous Bills the proposal had been that the Medical Council should have the preparation of these rules. Now, as the great object was to secure that these rules should be practically uniform for the three Conjoint Boards, it did appear to him that the most certain mode of obtaining that desirable end was that they should be prepared by one and the same Body. The Medical Council consisted of representatives from all parts of the United Kingdom; and he did certainly think, if they wanted uniformity, they could not better obtain it than by agreeing to this Amendment.
  LORD O'HAGANalso supported the Amendment. There was the strongest feeling in the Medical Profession in Ireland in reference to this part of the Bill. They had a proper appreciation of the efforts of the Government in introducing this measure, and they had an equal appreciation of the difficulties which surrounded the subject; and he certainly hoped the noble Duke would see his way clear to accepting the Amendment. There ought to be uniformity in the qualification of medical men in the three Kingdoms. He was familiar with the North of Ireland, and had had experience derived at the Assizes, where he had seen most miserable exhibitions arising from persons professing to be qualified men, but who were scarcely possessed of any qualification at all. It required no argument to show that a single Body could act with more uniformity than many in settling the rules for qualification; and, therefore, if the noble Duke could do anything to equalize the qualifications, by having it with a single Body acting on a single principle and a single view, it would be far more effective than two or three Bodies. As far as this cardinal point of the Bill was concerned, he thought this was a wise and salutary Amendment, and one which ought to be adopted.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, that the question of the rules in reference to the qualification of Medical Practitioners was an important one, and it had been his duty to look
  1300
  into it in consequence of the various representations which had been made to him from different parts of the three Kingdoms. He had thought that the proposition contained in this clause was the best mode of dealing with the subject, though he admitted that it differed from the course he proposed last year. But, inasmuch as he had the greatest possible confidence in the General Medical Council, which was composed of some of the most scientific men in the Medical Profession of the three Kingdoms, and as he wished to obtain as much uniformity of action as possible in those who would frame the new rules and regulations—indeed, uniformity was the great object of the Bill—and also feeling the weight of the observations of the noble Lord opposite, he would not oppose the first part of the Amendment proposed by the noble Lord—that part relating to the standard. He should, however, reserve to himself the question of the fees.
  Amendment amended, by omitting the words "and fees payable," and agreed to.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON moved to add, at end of first sub-section, the words—
  "And it shall be the duty of the General Medical Council to see that the examination rules in each part of the United Kingdom are so framed that the qualifying certificate shall as nearly as possible he granted on equal terms, so far as regards the curriculum of study examinations and standard."
  He would hereafter consider whether he could accept the proposal about equality of fees.
  LORD O'HAGANhoped that an arrangement would be made by the noble Duke that the fees to be paid by students should be equal everywhere. He looked upon the three Conjoint Boards under this Bill as three parts of the same General Examining Board, and, under all the circumstances of this new legislation, the different Medical Bodies should charge the same fees.
  Motion agreed to; words inserted accordingly.
  Sub-section 3 (The examination rules shall determine the conditions of admission of candidates to the examinations, and shall provide for the admission thereto on special terms of medical students who have begun their professional studies before the passing of this Act

  1301
  and of persons who have obtained medical diplomas in or studied in any British possession or foreign country, or have passed other examinations).
  THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH THE DUKE OF BUCCLEUCH moved an Amendment, to add at the end of the sub-section the words—
  ("And shall further provide that every member of a university who shall have passed the professional examination at such university for the degrees in medicine and surgery conferred by it, shall he exempted from any separate or further examination for a qualifying certificate under this Act, provided that such department of such professional examination, so far as regards all those subjects on which the medical board is required under a scheme to conduct examinations, shall have been conducted before a board of examiners of whom one half in number at least shall be examiners appointed by the medical board of that part of the United Kingdom in which such university is situate.")
  The noble Duke contended that the Medical School of the University of Edinburgh was second to none in Europe, that the Medical School of the University of Glasgow stood very high, and Aberdeen, though not so large, was equally carefully conducted; but St. Andrews had not a regular Medical School. If there were any rivalry in those Schools, it was as to the standard of excellence, and thus for the good of the public. It was plain that if the standard of the Medical Board was lower than that of the Universities, the students would go to the Medical Examining Board and not to the Universities. He desired that the reputation of those Medical Schools should not be depreciated by the operation of this Bill, and therefore he moved this Amendment, which he did not consider to be in any way contrary to the principle of the Bill.
  THE MARQUESS OF LOTHIANsupported the Amendment, as he believed that, if the Bill passed as it stood, it would be a serious injury to the Scotch Universities. There could be no doubt as to the thoroughness and efficiency of the Medical Examinations in Scotland, and nothing ought to be done to impair those Examinations. Although some of the Profession might have private practice, yet their first duty was to teach, and they had the most absolute appliances for carrying out the theoretical or practical part of the education of their students. With reference to what had been said with regard to uniformity, the object of the Bill was to have a fixed
  1302
  uniformity for a minimum of education, but there was to be no fixed uniformity of the maximum of education. He trusted their Lordships would agree to the proposal which had already been stated.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he was aware none of their Lordships would expect to hear from him any remarks attempting to depreciate the Universities of Scotland, as he had the honour of being the Chancellor of one of them. His noble Friend the noble Duke behind him (the Duke of Buccleuch) had stated—what was no less than true—that the reputation of the University of Edinburgh as a Medical School was world-wide. That was admitted on all sides—but he was sorry to say that on this occasion he was unable to accept the principle contained in his noble Friend's Amendment. He was very much astonished to hear from his noble Friend who spoke last that if this Amendment was accepted it would in no way affect the principle of the Bill. He conceived that the proposal of his noble Friend went to the root of the Bill. The object of the Bill was that there should be one portal of admission to the Medical Profession; and this it was proposed to attain by establishing a Conjoint Board in each division of the United Kingdom, in order to put a stop to the anomalies that now existed, and which resulted from there being 19 Medical Licensing Bodies in the three Kingdoms. He did not think his noble Friend could have thoroughly considered the effect of the Amendment which he had proposed, which was, that instead of having one Body for each division, they would have no less than 13 altogether. According to his noble Friend's proposal, he would admit the four Universities of Scotland. He was surprised to hear the noble Marquess (the Marquess of Lothian) say he spoke in the interests of the Universities. He was not attempting to legislate in the interests of the Universities, but was trying to legislate in the interests of the whole community. But if it was a great advantage to have the power which the clause proposed to give to the four Universities of Scotland, they would have to give the same power to the four Universities of England; because, if it was an advantage to the Scotch Universities, it would be equally an advantage to the English Universities

  1303
  to have the power. Then the two Irish Universities would, no doubt, also ask to be put in the same position; and, with the three Boards which it was proposed to constitute under this Bill, they would have no less than 13 Licensing Bodies in the place of the 19 Bodies they had now. The Amendment of his noble Friend, therefore, went to the very root of the Bill; and he did not hesitate to say that, if it was carried, it would be equivalent to moving that the Bill should be passed upon that day six months.
  Amendment negatived.
  Sub-section 5 struck out.
  Sub-section 6 amended consequentially to the first Amendment.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GOBDON THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GOBDON moved, at end of clause, to insert as a new sub-section—
  "All rules made in pursuance of this section when confirmed by the Privy Council, and all rules made in pursuance of this section which do not require to be submitted to the Privy Council, shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament as soon as may be after such rules are confirmed and made respectively, if Parliament be then sitting, or, if not, as soon as may be after the beginning of the then next session of Parliament."
  Motion agreed to; words added.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clauses 16 to 18, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 19 (General provisions as to scheme for Medical Board).
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDON moved, in page 12, line 6, to leave out from the first ("scheme") to the end of the clause, and insert—
  ("The scheme shall also provide for paying out of the said fees the expenses of the examinations and of carrying into effect the scheme, and for paying the cost of continuing to maintain under the control of any medical corporation any such medical museum or medical library, or both, as may before the passing of this Act have been ordinarily maintained for general public purposes by such corporation in their capacity of granters of qualifications for registration under the Medical Act, 1858, and have been so maintained out of fees paid by applicants for such qualifications, and may be of such importance to the promotion of knowledge in medicine or surgery as to deserve to be maintained out of fees payable for examinations for qualifying certificates and for applying the surplus, if any, towards the public purposes of any medical corporation in connection with the examinations.
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  "An annual account of the receipts and expenditure in respect of such fees shall be submitted to the Privy Council at the time and in the form required by them, and shall be laid before both Houses of Parliament.")
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsuggested that the rules of the scheme for the Conjoint Boards should also be laid before Parliament, as well as the examination rules.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONconsented.
  Motion agreed to; Amendment made accordingly.
  Clause, as amended, agreed to.
  Clause 20 agreed to.
  Clause 21 (Power of medical authorities to constitute diplomas).
  THE MARQUESS OF RIPONsaid, that it seemed to him essential that the Authorities should grant one and the same diploma to all persons coming up for attachment. He would therefore propose to add to the clause words to the following effect:—
  "Provided always, That one and the same medical diploma shall be granted to all persons for the purpose of being so attached."
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, he was inclined to agree with the noble Marquess, but asked that the matter should be left until the Report.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clauses 22 to 24, inclusive, agreed to.
  Clause 25 (Scheme for examination, licensing, and registration of midwives.)
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, after considering this subject, he came to the conclusion that he would strike the clause out now, and bring the subject up again on Report.
  Clause struck out.
  Remaining clauses and schedules agreed to.
  The Report of the Amendments to be received on Friday, the 28th instant; and Bill to be printed as amended (No. 31.)

BANKRUPTCY LAW AMENDMENT BILL.
(The Lord Chancellor.)
BANKRUPTCY LAW AMENDMENT BILL.

  (No. 8.) REPORT.
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, that having considered the discussion on the 21st clause the other evening, he had prepared a new clause to be substituted for it, which he hoped would meet the views of his noble and learned Friend (Lord Selborne).
  Clause 21 (Second General Meeting) struck out.
  New Clause moved instead thereof—
  In page 11, line 16, leave out from ("discharged") to ("If") in line 18, and insert,
  ("Provided always, that no such special resolution shall be passed until after the expiration of two months from the date of the provisional order; and upon an application to the court by any creditor of the debtor within one month after the filing of such special resolution, the court may (notwithstanding the special resolution) refuse to grant to the debtor an order of discharge, or suspend the same from taking effect for such time as it thinks fit, or grant the same subject to any condition or conditions touching any salary, pay, emoluments, profits, wages, earnings, or income which may afterwards become due to the debtor, and touching after acquired property of the debtor, upon proof being furnished to the court by any creditor of the debtor of any facts the proof of which would have entitled the court under this Act to refuse or suspend the order of discharge, or grant a conditional order of discharge if the debtor had been adjudged bankrupt. If no such application be made or proof furnished by any creditor within the above period of one month, the court shall at the expiration of such period grant to the debtor an absolute order of discharge. Every order of discharge granted under this section shall have the same effect as if it had been granted to a debtor adjudged bankrupt. Upon the passing of such special resolution the administration of the property of the debtor shall be proceeded with under the provisional order.")
  Clause agreed to, and inserted in the Bill.
  Amendment made, in Clause 39, as follows:—
  In line 25 insert the following subsection:—
  (a.) "That the creditors of the bankrupt under the bankruptcy have not received, and on a proper estimate of the assets are not likely to receive, a dividend or dividends amounting in the whole to ten shillings in the pound, and that the insufficiency of his estate to pay such dividend has not been caused through any negligence or fraud of the trustee."
  Bill to be read 3ª on Monday next.
  House adjourned at Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.