Sitting of 28 June 1878

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—Select Committee—Report—Ecclesiastical Buildings (Fire Insurance) [No. 253].
Committee—Highways (re-comm) [214]—R.P.
Committee—Report—Metropolis Improvement Provisional Orders Confirmation (Bowman's Buildings, Marylebone, &c.) * [217].
Third Reading—Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London) * [201], and passed.
The House met at Two of the clock.

QUESTIONS.
  INDIA—THE SALT TAX.

    QUESTION.
    MR. A. M'ARTHURasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether his attention has been directed to a letter of a correspondent in the "Daily News" of June the 26th, headed "The Salt Tax in India;" whether there is any foundation for the allegation that the Indian Government is secretly pressing the native states to level up the Salt Taxes to our standard; and, whether there is any foundation for the statement that the Indian Government is urging one large native state to give up or forbid the cultivation of opium in its territory?
    MR. E. STANHOPE: Yes, Sir, I read the letter in question; but we have no information whatever at the India Office as regards the statement about opium. As regards the salt tax, we are aware that the Government of India is negotiating with the Native States of Rajpootana and Central India for the abolition of the Customs Line. These negotiations, which are rapidly approaching completion, are described by Sir John Strachey as being intended to give to all the people throughout India, at the cheapest rate consistent with financial necessities and with the least possible inconvenience, as much salt as they can consume.

    PEACE PRESERVATION (IRELAND) ACT—HOUSE SEARCHES.—QUESTION.
    MAJOR NOLANasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If in Ballinasloe the houses of Mr. Matthew Harris, and of Mr. Michael O'Sullivan, were visited by police at 3 a.m. on the 14th June, and a search made for arms; whether at the time of this search Mr. Harris had a licence to keep and to carry arms in an adjoining district; whether at the same time a search was made for documents in the above houses; and, if so, whether instructions were given that private documents and business letters should be examined by an ordinary constable; if the persons who supplied the information on which the search warrants were issued by the Lords Justices had made known to the Lords Justices the facts that Mr. Harris was secretary to a tenant's association, and had lately in that capacity been summoned to give evidence before a Committee of this House now sitting on the land question; if the Lords Justices were not so informed, can he state if any explanation has been assigned why these facts, notorious in the district, were not brought under their notice when their signatures were obtained; and, whether the police were instructed to inspect on the warrant granted any strictly legal communications addressed to Mr. Harris in his capacity as secretary or as a witness before a Committee of this House on the land question?
    MR. J. LOWTHER: Sir, although the hon. and gallant Gentleman kindly gave me private Notice on Monday night of his intention to ask this Question yesterday, I am sorry to be unable as yet to give him an answer, and must ask him to be so good as to postpone it till a later day. As I was obliged to adopt a similar course with regard to a Question of a like kind put to me the other day by his hon. Colleague (Mr. Mitchell Henry), who appeared to be unaware of the necessity for what occurred, I wish to explain how matters stand with reference to such Questions. I forwarded the hon. and gallant Gentleman's Question to Dublin by Tuesday's post, and I yesterday received by return of post a reply, to the effect that it had been found necessary to call for a special Report from the local constabulary respecting some of the details inquired about; which, of

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    course, involves a delay of a few days, but I hope I shall receive it on Monday. I mention these facts, because hon. Members may not always realize that such a course is unavoidable in cases where a reference is called for to distant places for information which can only be supplied upon the spot.

  COLLECTION OF RATES (DUBLIN)— REPORT OF THE COMMISSION.

    QUESTIONS.
    MAJOR O'BEIRNE (for Mr. GRAY)asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, On what date was the order given to the Government printer to print the Report and Evidence of the Collection of Rates, Dublin, Commission?
    MR. J. LOWTHER: Sir, I am sorry to be obliged to give a somewhat similar answer to this Question as I had to make to the one put to me just now. I received a telegram yesterday from the hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Gray), kindly giving me Notice of the Question, and I forwarded his telegram by last night's post to Dublin, requesting a telegraphic answer to be sent to me, which, however, I have not yet received. The hon. Gentleman's Question is altogether upon a different footing from the one I was alluding to just now, as no inquiry outside Dublin apparently would be requisite; but I state the circumstances, so that it may be seen exactly how the case stands.
    MAJOR O'BEIRNE (for Mr. GRAY)asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether any appointment to the collector generalship of rates, Dublin, will be made before the House has an opportunity of discussing the Collection of Rates Bill?
    MR. J. LOWTHER: Sir, ascertaining that serious public inconvenience was likely to arise from delay in taking action upon the question of the Collector Generalship of Rates, I addressed a communication, under date of June 17, to Mr. Moylan, requesting him to tender his resignation. The choice of a successor has since occupied the attention of the Government, and as soon as the usual formalities have been complied with, the new Collector General will enter upon his duties. As considerable interest is taken by some hon. Members in the matter, I may mention that the gentleman selected for the appointment is Mr. John Byrne.

  NAVY—TRAINING SHIPS (IRELAND).

    QUESTION.
    MAJOR O'GORMANasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is the intention of Her Majesty's Government to establish in Ireland ships for training Irish lads and boys for the use of Her Majesty's Navy; and, whether the Flag-ship in Cork Harbour could not advantageously be used for the purpose named?
    MR. A. F. EGERTON: Sir, at present the supply of boys for the Navy is greater than the demand. By the existing regulations the sons of men serving in the Coastguard, district ships, other vessels on the Irish coasts and in the Irish constabulary, also the sons of naval, military, or civil pensioners in Ireland may be entered; but it is not considered necessary at present to establish training ships in Ireland.

    BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE—LOCAL COURTS OF BANKRUPTCY (IRELAND) BILL.—QUESTION.
    MR. MELDONasked Mr. Attorney General for Ireland, When he intends to bring on his Motion for the Second Reading of the Local Courts of Bankruptcy (Ireland) Bill; and, if he cannot fix any date, whether he will fix a date before which he will not seek to proceed with the measure?
    THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. GIBSON): Sir, having regard to the present position of Public Business, I am unable to fix the precise date when I expect to take the second reading of this Bill. I will take it on the first opportunity; but I may add, for the convenience of hon. Members who are interested in the subject, that I do not expect it will come on during the coming week, and, therefore, I shall not attempt to take it before Monday, the 8th July.

  ORDERS OF THE DAY.
    HIGHWAYS (re-committed) BILL.
    (Mr. Sclater-Booth, Mr. Salt.)

    [BILL 214.] COMMITTEE.
    Order for Committee read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Sclater-Booth.)
    MR. J. R. YORKE,in rising to move, as an Amendment—
    "That this House regrets to find in the Highways Bill, as now proposed to be re-committed, no adequate provision for obtaining from those classes whose traffic most conduces to the wear and tear of the main roads in England and Wales, some proportionate contribution towards the maintenance of such roads; and that, in the opinion of this House, no settlement of this question can be final or complete which does not include such provision,"
    said, that the history of the Highways Bill of this Session had been a very peculiar one. At the beginning of the Session a Bill was introduced which was described by the President of the Local Government Board as an omnibus Bill, and which practically contained no principle except that of union chargeability for Highway Boards. If that Bill had followed the usual course, there would have been no necessity for considering it at any length either in Committee or afterwards. But in the course of the Session the whole policy of the Government had undergone re-consideration. On coming down to the House one day, he found that there had been a general transmigration of clauses from the County Boards Bill into this measure, the County Boards Bill was not to be proceeded with this Session, and the Highways Bill, as amended, was to be pressed on the House. Under these circumstances, the matter had assumed a different aspect, and it now became necessary to consider seriously what would be the effect of the Bill so amended. One might as well expect the restoration of the Heptarchy as of turnpike tolls; but there was at least this to be said in their favour, that they made the people who used the roads pay for them. The old system of turnpikes was, he maintained, good in principle, because it involved a direct payment for the benefit of the general community; but, on the other hand, it was bad in practice, because it involved a good deal of annoyance to the public. But to abolish turnpike tolls without directly taxing in some other way those who now paid them, would be to grant a great relief to some classes at the expense of the general community, and a mere re-adjustment of machinery for such purposes could not be considered as a satisfactory settlement of the question. In 1876 his right hon. Friend brought in a Bill to deal with the ques-
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    tion, and he very much preferred that Bill to the one which had been introduced this year. The Bill of 1876 dealt more fairly with the average traveller than any other measure that had been proposed, while it afforded a certain amount of alleviation of the grievances the ratepayers would otherwise suffer from. He understood that his right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board relied principally upon the extraordinary traffic clause in the Bill to mitigate the undoubted grievance under which the ratepayers would suffer after the abolition of turnpikes. He might say that the Scotch Members were satisfied with that clause in their Roads and Bridges Bill. He (Mr. J. R. Yorke) admitted that generally the Scotch made pretty good terms for themselves in that House as elsewhere; but they must remember that the Scotch occupier was in a very much better position than the English occupier. The former only paid half the rate, and under the Roads and Bridges Bill the assessment for debts on roads and the payment of interest would fall upon the owner. There were several ways in which the inequalities which would come in operation if turnpikes were abolished might be mitigated. If the Government had passed the County Boards Bill, and established a proper authority to administer any funds paid over to them from the Imperial Exchequer, they would be in a much better position to deal with the question. The system of graduated rental which prevailed in Scotland might, for instance, be adopted. So well had that system worked that the Scotch Poor Law Amendment Act of 1866 proposed to make it compulsory. That Act contained an exceedingly stringent clause, giving the sheriff powers to assess exceptional businesses which carried on exceptional traffic. The principle embodied in that was not entirely new, for the germ of it was to be found in English legislation. All the less difficulty, therefore, would be experienced in adopting, or, rather, adapting it. Some people would not be satisfied with less than one-half the amount of the expense of the rates being paid out of the Consolidated Fund. He was not prepared to go so far as that. He did not wish to see the principle of grants in aid from the Consolidated Fund extended

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    any further, because it had a tendency to centralization and to weaken local authority. It had been suggested by his hon. Friend the Member for Wiltshire that local licences should be granted for local purposes. He did not see why we should not have a graduated scale of licences according to the damage likely to be done to the roads. A gentleman of great experience, who for 20 years had been the principal manager of the South Wales turnpike roads, in which six counties were combined, had given evidence to the effect that those who kept horses and carriages should not be placed on the same footing as those who did not. He therefore suggested that the licences for those who kept horses and carriages should be increased 20 per cent, or to such other amount as might be thought necessary; and he added that to abolish tolls, unless the parties who now paid them were taxed directly in some way or other, was granting a great relief to a small section at the expense of the general public. That was his whole case. He thought the best settlement would be that the main roads should be laid entirely on the county fund, that the Quarter Sessions should be added as a contributory area, and that the rates should be supplemented by increased local licences for carriages. His fear was that we should have a sham settlement on the plea that something must be done. There was a widespread idea in the county to which he belonged that the Government had no really comprehensive scheme for adjusting the contributions which ought to be made by the different classes of the community. Unless that was done no measure would be complete. He begged to move his Amendment.
    SIR BALDWYN LEIGHTON,in seconding the Amendment, said, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would see his way to accept it. He could not believe that the Government, which had already relieved the burdens of the local ratepayers, would be deaf to the representations which had now been made to them. The point to be borne in mind was, that it was proposed by the Bill to throw on the rural ratepayers, only a fraction of the community, charges which ought in fairness to be borne by a larger area. The amount of taxation that fell on the rural taxpayer was excessive. He ventured to say that the rural tax-
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    payer paid something like 30 per cent more than any other taxpayer, while most of the money was applied to general, and not local, purposes. There was tithe and rates equal to about 5s. in the pound; then there was land tax and education tax, equal to another 1s. in the pound. Hon. Members were accustomed to consider tithes as an immemorial rent-charge; but that was a mistake. It was paid partly and chiefly as poor rate. It was a trust with a distinct purpose and object. The trust had been broken, and the money, to a great extent, alienated from its purpose; but the object remained. He did not suggest any present alteration—at least, not until the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenwich came down there to propose that the time had come to disestablish the Church of England. Whenever that time arrived, there might, perhaps, be something to be said. Now, as regarded these turnpike roads, it would not be correct to suppose that they were merely local highways. They were used frequently for heavy through traffic. As to the practical solution of the question, his hon. Friend had suggested one or two solutions. He talked of a Government grant; and this might be the simplest way. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer were present, no doubt, he would say, "No, no," to this proposal; but the amount that would be required would not be very much. A quarter or half-a-million would be all that would be required. It would be quite possible to raise this sum out of the assessed taxes, or it would not come to half a farthing of income tax; but there were hon. Members who were quite willing to propose some contribution to this object who would not be disposed to throw it on these funds. The hon. Member for East Gloucestershire rather pointed to local licences; and this, perhaps, would be the most practical mode of meeting the question. He thought some of the smaller licences, the dog tax, and the gun tax, might be handed over to local bodies. He believed those taxes would be better looked after by the local authorities than by officers representing central authorities. They had heard yesterday of 17,000 prosecutions for dog licences. If the tax were handed over to the local authorities, they would be considerably reduced. Reference had been made to

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    the inclusion of boroughs in the county areas, but he did not think that arrangement would amount to any adequate relief. He might refer to the case of South Wales, where of a total of £78,000 £75,000 was raised by tolls and £3,000 only raised by rates. The cases of Scot land and Ireland did not bear on the subject; but in neither case was the expense thrown on the highway district. In Ireland the barony or the county had to pay, and in Scotland the expense also fell upon the county, and not upon the smaller districts, or what were called highway districts; and there was the precedent of Glasgow for charging a portion of this burden upon other property. He hoped the Government would take this question into consideration, and that his hon. Friend would then consent to withdraw the Amendment.
    Amendment proposed,
    To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House regrets to find in the Highways Bill, as now proposed to be re-committed, no adequate provision for obtaining from those classes whose traffic most conduces to the wear and tear of the main roads in England and Wales, some proportionate contribution towards the maintenance of such roads; and that, in the opinion of this House, no settlement of this question can he final or complete which does not include such provision,"—(Mr. Reginald Yorke,)
    —instead thereof.
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
    SIR JULIAN GOLDSMIDsaid, they had just listened to a speech on local taxation of a much too wide and general character to be applicable to a Highway Bill. His hon. Friend the Member for East Gloucestershire (Mr. J. R. Yorke) said that, in the opinion of the House, on settlement could be final or complete which did not include the provision he desired, but it might be added, that, even if the Bill did include this provision, it could not be regarded either as final or complete. Of all the questions which were brought before that House, the one that varied most, according to the circumstances of the day, was that which was connected with our local life. He considered that the Bill was a very useful one, its main principle being the simplification of
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    highway management; and it also settled other points on which simplification was very much desired, and for which it was right the President of the Local Government Board should legislate. The Amendment related only to one clause, and could be better discussed in Committee. He hoped that the Amendment would not be pressed, and that the House would go into Committee on the Bill without further delay.
    MR. SEVERNEsupported the Motion. In former times, when the main roads were turnpike roads, the cost of their maintenance was borne by those who used them, and he, for one, should not be sorry to see the old system reverted to; but, in the absence of that, he thought the ratepayers in the country districts were entitled to receive some assistance from the Consolidated Fund. This would be only fair; it would be no particular hardship upon any class, and would, he believed, meet the views and wishes of the country ratepayers. But, beyond that, there was still the question of the enlargement of the area over which the rating for the purposes of the Bill should be taken. That was a question well worthy of the attention of the Government, and he hoped it would be duly considered. There should be also, in his opinion, a tax on carriages or wheels, so as to compel, to a greater extent than was at present the case, those who used the roads to pay for them. He thought the Amendment expressed the feeling of the country, and he believed that any act dealing with the highways would not have the slightest chance of going on for a moderately long time unless something were done to assist those people who, only sharing n the value of the roads, yet had the whole burden of their maintenance thrown upon their shoulders.
    COLONEL KINGSCOTEagreed with the Amendment, and contended that the Bill did not grapple with the main question. He thought it was hard upon the inhabitants of small parishes to compel them to maintain entirely at their own cost roads which were really of little or no use to them as individuals. As a matter of fact, the Bill in the form in which it was before the House was a mere piece of patchwork. Let the measure be thoroughly thought out, and let it cover the whole area of the question. He did not think the country districts

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    wanted any help from the Consolidated Fund; but they could have local licences, like a wheel licence, and he did not think his friends, the farmers, would quarrel with a wheel licence. What the farmer did not like was that a number of people should use the roads to a great extent and not pay for them. In his part of the country there were two or three timber merchants, one employing 20 or 22 horses, and another employing 15, always working on the roads. Neither of these men were rated at more than £70 a-year, while many of the farmers might be rated at £700 or £800 a-year, and the farmers did not use the roads one-tenth part of these timber merchants. Now, that was not right. Why not grapple with the whole question in another Session, and let the country have a comprehensive measure?
    MR. WHEELHOUSEsaid, there was also a township in Yorkshire through which a heavy stone traffic passed, cutting up the roads. The township received little or no benefit for that traffic, and he wished to know if Clause 18, or any other clause in the Bill, would prevent the whole expense of maintaining the roads from falling upon that township alone?
    MR. CHAMBERLAINsaid, that, so far from agreeing with the arguments of the hon. Member who had proposed this Amendment, he thought, on the contrary, that boroughs ought to be relieved of a great deal of the taxes which at present pressed upon them, and for which no good reason could be shown. There were three classes of boroughs—first, those which were under urban sanitary authorities, who had no Quarter Sessions of their own, and with respect to these it appeared to him that the proposals of the Bill were fair, because it acknowledged a reciprocal obligation. Second, there was a class of boroughs which, having Quarter Sessions of their own, were not required to contribute to the county rate, and in their case also he considered there was no objection to the proposals of the Bill. But there was, third, a class of boroughs such as Birmingham, which, although they had Quarter Sessions of their own, were obliged to contribute to the county rate. They were asked to pay one-half towards the maintenance of the county roads without obtaining from the county any return in the shape of a contribution to
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    the repair and maintenance of its roads and streets, which were used much more by the inhabitants of the county than the county roads were by the people of Birmingham. He could not support the Amendment of the hon. Member. When the Bill came into Committee, he himself would propose certain Amendments to prevent such a borough as Birmingham from making any contribution to such roads.
    LORD GEORGE CAVENDISHwas sorry that the hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) had raised an invidious distinction between counties and boroughs in reference to this matter of keeping up the roads. Boroughs had quite as much interest in keeping up good roads in the country as the country itself. If the boroughs kept up their streets, the county districts had to keep up their highways. He had been waiting so many years for a Highway Bill, that he was only too glad to jump at any measure that was brought forward. This was not such a very small Bill after all, and he was sincerely obliged to the Government for having listened to the recent Report of the Turnpike Roads Committee, of which he was a Member. He hoped that the Bill would be passed this Session, and, if necessary, it could be amended another year. So anxious was he that this Bill should pass, that he had almost resolved not to speak on the subject nor to move any Amendment. There was, however, one Amendment which he should bring forward at the proper time, to the effect that the Bill should be made compulsory throughout England and Wales.
    MR. STARKIEsaid, he could hardly support the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for East Gloucestershire, because the time had passed away when they could lay an embargo upon either wheels or horses for the maintenance of roads. There was no wish to receive money from the boroughs towards the maintenance of the roads in the county districts without adequate remuneration. It should be borne in mind that, owing to the enormous increase of traffic, the provision originally made for keeping the roads in repair was now quite inadequate, and a measure dealing with the question was greatly required. He suggested that the repairs of the roads should be thrown on the hundreds of the various counties. Although he

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    had to thank the President of the Local Government Board for introducing this measure, yet he thought it must be made compulsory, if it were to do any good. He should be ready in Committee to assist in making the Bill useful and beneficial to the country generally.
    MR. BENETT-STANFORDsaid, that as he lived in a district which was largely composed of stone quarries, he was most thankful to the President of the Local Government Board for the "extraordinary traffic clause," as it was called. A feeling prevailed that it was unjust to endeavour to make those who did not use the roads in their own neighbourhoods repair them. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman and the hon. Member for East Gloucestershire would consider together whether a supplementary clause could not be inserted, for the purpose of giving special licences to men in a large way of business, particularly stone-quarry owners, with a view to the rectification of some of the grievances complained of.
    MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSENthought it a pity that so much time should have been taken up in discussing what he could not help regarding as an obstructive Amendment, because the points which had been raised could have been more satisfactorily dealt with in Committee on the Bill. The Bill did not go so far in many respects as he could have wished. It was a mistake on the part of the Government in attempting to deal with so many separate measures having a bearing on the same subject this Session. The highways of the country should be dealt with in a more comprehensive measure. What he wished to see constituted was a central authority which should deal with the roads, and the roads themselves divided into different classes—one to be maintained out of the general rates of the counties, and the other to be looked after by district highway authorities, and a third and smaller class, which might possibly have a claim to contribution from Imperial taxation. The Bill appeared, with two or three exceptions, to be a practical measure, likely to do some service, and he expressed a hope that the House would be allowed to go into Committee on the Bill.
    MR. BEACHsaid, he could not agree with the right hon. Gentleman that time was wasted in discussing the Amendment. Since the withdrawal of the
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    County Board Bill, the Highways Bill had been, practically, re-modelled; and it was right, therefore, to take the present opportunity of discussing it before going into Committee, and such discussion would be most useful, because it would simplify their proceedings in Committee. As a Member of the Turnpikes Continuance Act Committee, he agreed with the noble Lord the Member for Derbyshire (Lord George Cavendish), that they were all most anxious for a comprehensive measure on this subject; but he did not agree with him in saying that he was anxious to see a measure passed under any circumstances. It would be a mistake to pass a Bill now which would have to be amended next year. Their object ought to be to pass a good measure, which would deal effectually with the evils which were generally acknowledged, and would not require speedy amendment. In his opinion, no highway legislation would prove effectual and useful unless there was a uniform system of road management for the whole country. Tolls were not liked, but a system of licences for locomotives, and other vehicles, to use the various roads, should be issued, and thus contributions could be had in aid of the main roads of the country. If some provision of this kind were introduced, it would render the measure more equitable; but without it there would be little to compensate for the expenses which the additional machinery of the Bill would involve. At the present time, when the taxation of the country was so heavy, they could not expect aid from the Exchequer for carrying out the objects of the Bill; but he hoped it would be given at some future day, when the House might pass a Highway Bill which would be beneficial to the country.
    MR. RYLANDSsaid, he had heard with great regret a statement of the noble Lord (Lord George Cavendish), whose position in the House rendered him so great an authority on the subject they were considering, that he was so anxious for a Highway Bill that he would accept anything the Government chose to offer. That was hardly the spirit in which they should address themselves to a question which was of permanent importance. They were asked by the Government to deal with a number of subjects this Session, all of which were intimately connected with the pro-

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    gress and well-being of the country, and they were asked to deal with, them in a very slip-shod manner by means of measures which did not even pretend to be permanent. If turnpikes were done away with, an equitable arrangement should be made for the maintenance of the roads. A certain portion of the charge of the roads which ceased to be turnpikes should be thrown upon the county funds. That was a fair and reasonable proposition, although he did not believe that they could meet every possible case. They were asked to do one thing which, he thought, very objectionable, to give the county authority power to levy more taxation upon the boroughs, when these boroughs had not the slightest voice in the composition of the county authority. The Bill would fail in the object of securing compulsory highway districts; and as regarded providing a county authority fairly representative of the ratepayers at large, that authority would consist of gentlemen who found themselves in the position, not in virtue of any election, but because they had been selected by one gentleman—the Lord Lieutenant of the county.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he gathered from the tone of the discussion that the feeling of the House was in favour of the Bill being proceeded with, and that its details should be considered in Committee without delay. With reference to a remark which had fallen from the hon. Member opposite (Mr. Rylands), he agreed that the county authorities would have an opportunity of taking up other roads and placing them on the same footing as main roads; but their inclinations and their prejudices would be all the other way. The hon. Mover of the Amendment had complained that the Government had not provided any really new proposal in the Bill. The Government lay under no charge of injustice on the score of not providing a mode of taxation towards which the general public might contribute to the maintenance of roads, because it was the common law of England that the roads should be supported by the rates of the districts through which they ran. It was unjust to say that the general public should pay for roads which only a particular class used to any extent for general wear and tear. It was mainly in consequence of repeated
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    suggestions by the Turnpike Committee that the Government thought it necessary to revert to the proposals of the Bill of 1876, which would at once enable the county authority to begin by setting apart certain roads in a way that could not be objected to. There were many parts where there was no feeling in favour of the turnpike toll system, and where, on the whole, the ratepayers were well satisfied with the present arrangement, and thought the expenses were best charged on the rateable property of the county. Several of the suggestions that had been made had been carefully considered by the Government before the introduction of the Bill, and among these was the suggestion that a tax should be imposed on the wheels of carriages. But such a tax must be levied on the whole community, and, if it were, the annoyance and irritation it would cause would be out of all proportion to the revenue it would yield. Ratepayers generally would be better satisfied that the charge should be imposed on rental than it should be imposed on the means of locomotion. If a charge were imposed upon brewers, for instance, it would simply be distributed among their customers, and so be paid by the general body of consumers. The Bill, nevertheless, did set up for the first time in the English counties a fund irrespective of rates, and this was the beginning of a system which could be developed into substantial aid in the repair of roads. With regard to the extraordinary traffic clause, the object of its introduction was to raise the question whether, by any means, some extra contributions could be obtained by taxing heavy traffic that caused excessive damage to roads. The Scotch Bill had adopted a similar clause. He was sorry to have to apologize for the form of the Bill, and to answer the charge of putting the cart before the horse; but last year the Government were obliged to withdraw a Bill, the only objection to which was that it involved the re-enactment of old laws. When comprehensive measures were met with such objections, there was no encouragement to introduce them. With reference to the Resolution, there could be no quarrel about the substance of it. The Bill was intended to be preliminary to a general measure of consolidation of the highway law, and to another general measure affecting loco-

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    motives on roads. Such a measure had been passed in relation to the public health, and such was contemplated with regard to the Poor Laws by the measures of amendment which had been carried through Parliament. This was the justification of the Government for bringing forward the Bill in its present shape, and making the main roads a charge on the county rate. With regard to the case of Birmingham, he believed the present law was, that in the towns which were under the Municipal Corporations Act, and where a separate court of Quarter Sessions had been established, no fresh levy of county rates would be made, except in respect of charges to which they were previously liable. He asked the House to be content with such measures of reform as the Government had the opportunity of submitting to Parliament—reforms which would facilitate the passing of more comprehensive measures. He hoped the House would now permit the Speaker to leave the Chair.
    COLONEL RUGGLES-BRISEalso hoped the House would go into Committee, although the Bill was a half-hearted measure, and did not carry out the good old principle, that those who used the roads ought to pay for them. The old turnpike system had been very much objected to; but public opinion was rapidly coming round to the view that, except in some special circumstances, that system was the only one of dealing with the difficulties of the subject. The highway district over which he presided would derive no advantage from the Bill, but would have to contribute £200 or £300 a-year to the county rate, in addition to bearing the establishment charges, which it had been the object of the Board to keep down for the last 10 or 15 years. Highway districts were not always found to work so satisfactorily as seemed to be supposed. He had seen as much extravagance and jobbery under highway districts as he had seen under the old system; but there was one in which they never failed, and that was to increase the rates. He hoped the hon. Member for East Gloucestershire would not press his Amendment, but would allow them to go into Committee upon the Bill.
    SIR GEORGE JENKINSONasked the President of the Local Government Board, whether, in the event of the House going into Committee on the Bill,
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    it was his intention to proceed with it at once?
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHreplied, that he should be in the hands of the Committee, and would not insist on going on with it if the general feeling of the Committee were opposed to that course.
    MR. GREGORYsaid, that the exact interpretation to put upon the words "county rate" was a question of great importance, and there seemed to be some difference on the point. For his own part, he thought it was fair and reasonable that Quarter Sessions boroughs should be made to contribute to the roads.
    MR. PELLsaid, the Amendment might be taken as a protest against the way in which the Government had arranged their Business with respect to three or four important subjects. The Valuation Bill would have been quite enough to have occupied their attention; but suddenly the Highways Bill, without any adequate discussion, was pushed forward. There was no doubt what the object of the Government was. They wanted to get the Speaker out of the Chair, and after that the Bill would be laid aside until the closing days of the Session, when the Government would have its provisions absolutely at their disposal. He thought that they should have some assurance when the Bill was to be proceeded with, and whether it was to be taken before or after the Valuation Bill, or whether the two were to run interlaced with one another. The present Bill offered a very poor alternative for the County Government Boards which would have been constituted under the Bill which the Government had abandoned. He should, therefore, in the event of a division, vote in support of the Amendment, and hoped that they would now be allowed to proceed first with the Valuation Bill or the County Government Bill.
    SIR HARCOURT JOHNSTONEthought that, on the whole, the Bill was likely to meet most of the difficulties which had been experienced in regard to this question. In the part of the country with which he was connected, they would infinitely prefer to have the highways settled very much on the lines indicated in the Government measure, rather than have the County Government Bill pressed on this Session. There were some points to be considered in

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    Committee, but he hoped they would be allowed to proceed with, the Bill.
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes 256; Noes 47: Majority 209.—(Div. List, No. 189.)
    Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
    Bill considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    Preamble postponed.

    Preliminary.
    Clause 1 (Short title).
    MR. J. R. YORKEsaid, he really must appeal to the President of the Local Government Board, and ask him whether it was right to go on with the Bill at the present time? The Movers of the two first Amendments were not present, and it certainly had been understood that morning that all that would be done would be the passage of the Bill into Committee without any subsequent proceedings.
    MR. RYLANDSsaid, he hoped the hon. Member would not press his objection to the Bill going on upon the grounds he had mentioned. There was no doubt that there had been an expectation that the Roads and Bridges Bill would be taken that morning, and that the Highways Bill would simply be discussed on the Question that the Speaker do leave the Chair. There would, however, be some inconvenience owing to the change in the order of Business whichever Bill was proceeded with, and he hoped the hon. Member would not object to going on with that Bill.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, that, under the circumstances, and after the debate that had taken place, it would be more convenient for the Committee to proceed with the Highways Bill. His hon. and gallant Friend the Member for West Sussex (Sir Walter B. Barttelot), who was not then present, might just as well raise the question involved in his Amendment on the Report, should he desire to do so. It was not of importance at the present stage of the Bill, and he did not think the hon. and gallant Member would regret not having been there.
    Clause agreed to.
    Clause 2 (Application of Act) agreed to.

  PART I.

    AMENDMENT OF HIGHWAY LAW.
    Highway Districts.
    Clause 3 (Highway districts to be made so far as possible coincident with rural sanitary districts) agreed to.
    Clause 4 (Power for rural sanitary authority of district coincident with highway district to become highway board).
    MR. BEACH (for Sir WALTER B. BARTTELOT)moved, as an Amendment, in page 2, line 3, after the word "may," to insert—
    "With the consent of the vestries representing not less than two-thirds of the rateable value of such area."
    He thought the Amendment was a strictly reasonable one, that it only gave to the ratepayers of the county an opportunity of declaring whether they acknowledged the arrangements which made the rural sanitary authority of a district coincident with the Highway Board. He considered that, on the whole, such an arrangement was desirable; but, still, it was right that those who were interested in the question should have an opportunity of expressing their assent or dissent to the proposal.
    MR. STANSFELDsaid, that it appeared to him that the addition to the clause had no reason whatever. The hon. Member could not have read Clause 4 with accuracy, and he could not see what the object of the Amendment was, except in making the application of the clause less likely to be made.
    DR. LUSHobjected to the Amendment.
    MR. HIBBERTsaid, the question appeared to be whether the highways district did, or did not, fill up the whole of the rural sanitary district; and he should like to know whether the President of the Local Government Board would insert some words in the Bill on the Report to provide for such a case? They were perfectly ready to transfer the highway district authority into the hands of the local authority; and, therefore, he trusted that a due arrangement would be provided.
    Mr. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he would consider the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Oldham, and would see what could be done upon the Report. As re-

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    garded the Amendment which had been moved, he quite remembered that he himself had placed a precisely similar Amendment on the Paper when the Highways Act was before Parliament—namely, that the assent of the vestries should be taken as well as that of the local authorities. But it had been very well pointed out at the time that a limitation of that sort would really place an obstacle in the way of a reform which Parliament desired to see effected. A second objection was, that the vestry did not represent the ratepayers of the district so satisfactorily as did the guardians, who were elected annually; and, therefore, he thought that the general rule of Parliament ought to prevail there—namely, that the elected representatives must be presumed, for the purpose of policy, to represent their constituents. He, accordingly, must object to the Amendment, as he thought it would limit the operation of what would be in many cases a useful provision. He did not wish it to be supposed that they wanted to bind down the Boards of Guardians to take up the highway business of their areas; but he was obliged to have regard to the various views, habits, and practices of the different Boards throughout the country. He knew that the proposal was entirely out of the question in some parts of England, whereas it was highly desirable in others; and he thought it might be safely left to the consideration of the guardians.
    MR. PAGETthought that at first sight there was a good deal to be said in favour of the Amendment, for it was in the direction of allowing an ample opportunity of deciding whether the inhabitants of the locality who were chiefly interested in the matter desired the change or not. But, on further consideration, according to his view, that limitation, which at first sight was a very useful one, would not be necessary, and he hoped his hon. Friend would not press it.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. SEVERNE,in moving to leave out the clause, said, he thought it was a permissive clause, and that as it stood at present it would tend to do away with the Board of Highway laws, and turn them over at once to the sanitary authorities—that was to say, the Board of
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    Guardians. The Boards of Guardians, as at present comprised, had quite enough on their hands without taking upon themselves that additional duty. He had been Chairman of a Board of Guardians which was principally composed of farmers, and he thought that the work would be more than a good many farmers would care to undertake; whereas there were a good many men on the Highways Board who would not serve on the Board of Guardians.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, he should be very sorry to support the clause if it were of a tyrannical character; but everybody must see that the time was coming when it was desirable to give the rural sanitary authority urban powers over the roads. He was quite sure that that was a useful power for some districts; but it ought not to be imposed on other districts where the Highways Board was doing its work.
    MR. HIBBERTdid not rise for the purpose of supporting the Amendment, but he did think that the latter part of the clause required some consideration. It proposed to do what was generally considered objectionable—namely, to allow a new authority to be set up over the boundaries of the county.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHthought the argument might be pressed both ways.
    MR. J. R. YORKEconsidered the clause was one of the most valuable provisions of the Bill. What they had been looking forward to as the greatest advantage of these Bills was that they should have something like a symmetrical area; and he, was afraid that that important reform could not properly be brought into operation unless they had an intermediate authority.
    MR. PAGETsaid, he was by no means so sanguine that the excellent results hoped for by the hon. Member would flow from that clause. He, however, was ready to support the clause, as it was not compulsory. He knew, as a fact, that in many cases the Board of Guardians had quite as much work as they could do in the administration of the Poor Law; and freely stated that if the highways work were to be thrown upon them as well, they did not know how they should perform it. He knew that there was a general feeling that it would be better to take rural sanitary business from the Unions and put it on the Highway Boards; but the Bill, how-

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    ever, left it open to any rural sanitary authority to continue to do its work as it did now, and, therefore, he was now ready to support the clause as it now stood.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    Clause agreed to.
    Clause 5 (Consequences of rural sanitary authority becoming Highway Board).
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHmoved, in page 2, line 31, to leave out "this Act," and insert "such order." Page 3, line 3, leave out "this Act," and insert "such order."
    Amendments agreed to.
    Clause, as amended, agreed to.
    Clause 6 (Highway Boards may combine to appoint a district surveyor) agreed to.
    Clause 7 (Expenses of Highway Boards to be paid out of district fund).
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHmoved, in page 3, line 31, after "shall," to insert "notwithstanding anything in the Highway Acts."
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. BEACHsaid, that, upon the whole, he thought the clause would be productive of benefit. It was a sequel to that alteration which was made some time ago—namely, that turnpike roads, instead of being parts of parishes, should be charged upon the district funds. That showed the great necessity there was of simplifying the accounts in the various areas, and in making an equitable charge throughout the whole district. Therefore, he thought that if the expenses of the various highways were charged upon a district, instead of being charged upon individual parishes, it would be of use and productive of benefit to the country.
    MR. PAGETsaid, he had an Amendment to the clause which he would explain. The clause contained what was to his mind a very important limitation. That was the limitation of the principle that the whole expenses of Highways Boards should be paid out of the district funds. He thought that highway districts might very well have been left alone. They did not object to the existing
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    practice of parochial charge for parish highways—they were quite satisfied to leave the principle as it existed, and to leave each of their own parishes to pay for the roads. However, the principle was going to be altered by the clause. The Amendment was to the effect that any parish or parishes should have the right to appeal to the Highways Board for permission to continue, as at present, to pay for their parish highways; and that if such permission were not granted, they should have the right to appeal to the county authorities. The clause, as it at present stood, did not give the people most intimately concerned a right of appeal. They might find a highway district composed of a certain number of parishes, and having a certain number of them so situated, that it would be right and just that they should be formed into a district by themselves. He simply desired to give effect to the principle that there should be an appeal.
    MR. STANSFELDsaid, that in the clause were words giving a discretionary power to the Highway Boards in the case of natural differences of locality. He should like to know exactly what those words meant? Natural differences of soil he could understand.
    SIR HARCOURT JOHNSTONEthought that though the right hon. Gentleman took exception to the words, they conveyed to his mind a very accurate idea of what was intended to be enacted by the Bill. In his highway district there was a considerable difference in the soil and in the character of the land, which, at the present time, formed a substantial grievance as to the incidence of the rate; and he should prefer to retain the words.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHthought the words "soil" or "locality" hardly indicated sufficient reason for dividing a district into two parts; and, therefore, he should not be disinclined to adopt the words "soil or locality, or other exceptional circumstances," and he would take the opportunity of considering the question raised by his hon. Friend (Mr. Paget) before the Report. The right hon. Gentleman then moved to add the words above-mentioned as an Amendment.
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. PAGETmoved to add to the clause the worda—

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    "Any parish in a highway district may apply to the Highway Board to be permitted to bear the expense of maintaining its own highways, and, in the event of such application not being entertained, may appeal to the county authority: Provided always, That previous to such application, the assent of the ratepayers representing not less than two-thirds of the rateable value of such parish shall be obtained."
    He put the words as to two-thirds in, as he did not wish an appeal to be made unless there was a strong feeling in its favour. He did not wish it to be done hastily; but, an application being refused, the ratepayers, if they were agreed to the extent of two-thirds, might appeal to the county authorities, and say—"Here is a case which the Bill has provided for. Our application was not entertained, because we were in a minority. We contend that it is, in the words of the Bill, 'just, by reason of the natural differences of our soil and locality,' that we should be permitted to bear the expense of maintaining our own highways, and we desire to be heard in support of our claim."
    SIR HARCOURT JOHNSTONEsaid, that appeared to him to be a mixture of the permissive principle with the Imperium in Imperio. He did not think it would work at all well in the manner indicated by the hon. Member.
    MR. WILBRAHAM EGERTONdid not think it would be an advantageous custom to allow any parish to contract itself out of the highways management. He regretted that the Highway Acts had not been made compulsory.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHhoped the hon. Member would not press his Amendment, as it would be quite contrary to the spirit and intention of the clause. When, a few years ago, Parliament decided that turnpike roads should be charged upon the parishes, they made no exception in favour of parishes which had no turnpike roads upon them.
    MR. PAGETthought that the hon. Baronet (Sir Harcourt Johnstone), as an advocate of the Permissive Bill, would have had some sympathy with a permissive clause. The Bill, however, had been brought on rather earlier than he expected; and, of course, an Amendment of that kind was not readily understood or appreciated. He, therefore, would withdraw it for the present, proposing to bring the question forward at a later stage of the Bill.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. HIBBERTwished to draw the attention of the President of the Local Government Board to cases where the Highways Boards had borrowed money of parishes in their district. He did not think the Bill would sufficiently protect cases of that kind. He knew of several cases where money had been borrowed of parishes by the Highways Boards for the improvement of roads; and, therefore, he thought that, in the Report, when it came up, there should be some provision made for such a case.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, that no doubt money had been borrowed in some cases, and he would take care that the question should be considered before the Report.
    Clause, as amended, agreed to.
    Clause 8 (Audit of accounts of highway districts and parishes).
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHmoved, in page 4, at the end of the clause, to add—
    "Section thirty-six of 'The Highways Act, 1862,' is hereby repealed down to the words 'to be paid out of the district fund,' and the statement of receipt and expenditure by the said section directed to be furnished by every highway board within thirty days after the signature of the accounts by the chairman shall be furnished within thirty days after the completion of the audit under this section."
    Amendment agreed to.
    MR. J. R. YORKEsaid, with regard to the auditor, that he did not see why the expense of the auditor should be thrown upon the Highways Board, as the work done was done for the whole of the district.
    Clause, as amended, agreed to.
    Clause 9 (Duration of office of way-warden).
    MR. HIBBERTgave it as the result of his experience, that the expenses of guardians going to attend their Board meetings were often charged in the highway accounts. He desired to have some explanation with regard to the duration of the period of office, fixed by the clause, in the case of way wardens, as it appeared that by the proposed arrangement there would be two sets of officers at the same time.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, there was, no doubt, a good reason for fixing the 30th April in the year following the

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    appointment of waywardens, as the date for the appointment of their successors in office. He was not then able to reply more fully to the question raised by the hon. Member for Oldham (Mr. Hibbert), but would have it examined.
    Clause agreed to.
    Clause 10 (Repeal of part of Section 7 of Highway Act, 1862), agreed to.

    Main Roads.
    Clause 11 (Disturnpiked roads to become main roads, and half the expense of maintenance to be contributed out of county rate).
    SIR GEORGE JENKINSONthought the operation of the clause, if it remained unaltered, would be extremely unfair to the district with which he was connected, inasmuch as, although Gloucestershire was one of the counties that first adopted the Highway Act now in force there, it would have no claim on the county rate, and would have to bear the whole cost of maintaining its roads. He, therefore, wished to move to leave out the word "seventy," in page 4, line 36, of the clause, and to insert the word "sixty-five."
    MR. BEACHsaid, that 1870 was the first year in which the work of the Turnpike Continuance Committee took effect, and trusts were largely extinguished; but that the Bill gave ample opportunities for converting highways into main roads, as well as the power to county authorities of reducing main roads to the status of ordinary highways. In his opinion, therefore, the date fixed by the Bill was a very convenient one.
    LORD GEORGE CAVENDISHalso considered that the term for the retrospective operation of the Bill had been fixed with very good reason.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, his reply to the Amendment of the hon. Baronet (Sir George Jenkinson) had been anticipated by the hon. Member for North Hants (Mr. Beach) and the noble Lord who had just sat down. The date fixed by the clause 1870—which was also decided upon by the Turnpikes Committee, would be very convenient; while that proposed by the Amendment would involve the difficulties of dealing with special and perplexing cases. He hoped
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    the Amendment would not be pressed to a division.
    MR. GREGORYsaid, he had received representations as to the unfairness of the date fixed by the clause; and from circumstances within his own recollection, it appeared to him somewhat unjust to exclude from the beneficial operation of the clause those districts in which the roads had been disturnpiked as far back as 1865.
    MR. PAGETsaid, no injustice of the kind indicated would result from the operation of the Bill; because, on application, of the highway authority, the county authority had power, under Clause 13, to declare ordinary highways to be main roads. There would, for that reason, be no difficulty whatever with regard to the Gloucestershire roads, which could be declared main roads, if they made out a good case for the consideration of the county authorities. He hoped the hon. Baronet would not persist with his Amendment.
    SIR HARCOURT JOHNSTONEsaid, the Committee had nothing before it to show how many roads would come upon the county rate by taking the years 1870 and 1865 respectively. He hoped that his hon. Friend would give the Committee some idea of the effect of substituting one of these limits for the other. Notwithstanding the contention of the hon. Member for Somerset (Mr. Paget), the greatest injustice would be done by this clause of the Bill.
    MR. STANSFELDthought that the words of Clause 13 would not enable the highway authority to discuss the question fully; and that, when the clause was reached, some explanation would be found to be necessary.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. GREGORYsaid, as it might cause some trouble, and prejudice the view which he took of the question, he did not wish to press the Amendment standing in his name, for the omission from the clause, in page 5, line 1, of the words "out of the county rate."
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. HIBBERTsaid, he had a strong opinion that in Lancashire it would be quite impossible to give effect to the clause unless they had power to meet the expense out of the hundred rate,

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    He therefore begged leave to insert, in line 1, page 5, after the word "rate," the words "or hundred rate as such county authority may decide."
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he rose to Order. The hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. Cope) had an Amendment on the Paper relating to the same portion of the clause. As due Notice had been given of this Amendment, it should, as a matter of Order, be taken first.
    THE CHAIRMANsaid the hon. Baronet (Sir Charles W. Dilke) was quite right. He would call upon the hon. Member for Middlesex to move his Amendment.
    MR. COOPEbegged leave to move, in page 5, line 1, after the word "rate," to insert the words—
    "But no part of such expenses shall be charged in the Metropolis as defined by the Metropolis Local Management Act."
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHstated, with regard to the addition to the clause proposed by the hon. Member for Old-ham (Mr. Hibbert), that he had no objection to the county of Lancashire using the hundred rate for the payment of main road expenses; but that arrangement should be determined by a separate clause. If the hon. Member would consult with him, the clause should be considered before the Report. He objected to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Middlesex. The Bill was a step in the system of road management, and he hoped that no change would be made without consideration. The Government did not intend to carry the county rate for this purpose into Quarter Sessions boroughs or into the Metropolis.
    THE CHAIRMANinquired what course the hon. Member for Oldham intended to pursue with regard to his Amendment?
    MR. HIBBERT: I withdraw it.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. COOPEsaid, he still thought an Amendment would be desirable, inasmuch as it would remove the ambiguity which would necessarily follow if the words were not inserted. He understood his right hon. Friend to say that the clause would not be applicable to the Metropolis. There was, therefore, no reason why the words he now suggested—
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    "But no part of such expenses shall be charged in the Metropolis as defined by the Metropolis Local Management Act,"
    should not be inserted in the clause.
    MR. STANSFELDobserved, that as the Government had placed the cases of the Metropolis and of boroughs with Quarter Sessions upon the same ground, he should like to say a few words with regard to the latter. So far as he could understand the Report which the right hon. Gentleman had himself laid upon the Table, municipal boroughs having Quarter Sessions did not contribute to the county rate, and were not liable in those boroughs for the repair of the main roads. No doubt the matter was involved in considerable obscurity; but to take the case of Birmingham, to which attention had been called by the hon. Member for that borough, he found it stated that there were Sessions Courts there for county purposes, but having separate Courts of Quarter Sessions, it was exempted from contributing to the county rates. So much he gathered from the statement, that otherwise Birmingham would have to contribute to the county rates. If he took Clause 5 as a basis of calculation in the Bill, he found it was a matter of adjustment between town and county on the basis of population. He might refer, also, to Manchester, Liverpool, and Leeds, as similar instances. Perhaps the President of the Local Government Board would inform the Committee whether the position of Quarter Session boroughs not at present contributing towards the rates was intended to be changed?
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, that if the Bill passed in its present state, London would have to contribute. As he understood the explanation now given by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board, it was proposed to make the changes effected by the Bill perfectly clear. If some fresh clause were to be introduced, it ought to be placed in the hands of Members.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, that the question was not altogether free from difficulty; but he might say that, in his opinion, it would be highly inconsistent for Parliament to authorize county rates to be levied in Quarter Session boroughs. He believed that in old boroughs sums in respect of some county matters had remained charged upon those boroughs.

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    That would account for the position of affairs in Manchester, Birmingham, and Liverpool. Very difficult questions were raised which he did not then wish to approach. But he would state that the Government did not propose to extend these charges either on the Metropolis or on Quarter Session boroughs, because they had no representation on the County Board. But some contribution might justly be expected from them in certain cases, and he hoped to be able to devise some plan for effecting this object which would be satisfactory. He felt, however, that this Bill was not a convenient mode of carrying out what would be an important change in county assessment.
    SIR CHARLES W. DILKEhoped the right hon. Gentleman would state what he proposed to do.
    MR. COOPEproposed to insert, at the end of the clause, the words—
    "A separate estimate shall be made by the county authorities of the counties of Middlesex, Kent, and Surrey of all sums required by them for the purposes of this section, and no part of such sums shall be included in any precept or warrant for the levying or calculation of the county rate within the Metropolis."
    That Amendment would answer the purpose of freeing the Metropolis from extra charge.
    MR. STANSFELDobserved, that the Amendment would protect the Metropolis, but not the Quarter Session boroughs.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, that the intention of the Bill was that the county rate should be levied in the ordinary way.
    MR. WHITWELLwas proceeding to make some observations with respect to Quarter Session boroughs, when——
    THE CHAIRMANsaid, that the hon. Member was not in Order. The Amendment before the Committee was with regard to the Metropolis. Did the hon. Member for Middlesex propose to withdraw it?
    MR. COOPEsaid, that was his intention.
    Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
    MR. GREGORYwished to know whether the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Local Government Board admitted the propriety of the boroughs making some contribution to the county rates?
    THE CHAIRMANinquired whether the hon. Member proposed to move an Amendment?
    MR. GREGORYwas not prepared to move any Amendment.
    MR. COOPEagain moved the insertion, at the end of the clause, of the words—
    "A separate estimate shall be made by the county authorities of the counties of Middlesex, Kent, and Surrey of all sums required by them for the purposes of this section, and no part of such sums shall be included in any precepts or warrants for the levying or calculation of the county rates within the Metropolis."
    MR. GREGORYobserved, that, of course, some proposition would have to be made with regard to these boroughs, and there would then arise an opportunity of discussing the subject. The right hon. Gentleman had admitted that there ought to be some contribution from these boroughs, and it was right that they should pay some reasonable sum commensurate with the benefit which they received.
    MR. HIBBERTsaid, that boroughs having Quarter Sessions were now rated for some county purposes. He did not see why, if they were rated in respect of bridges all over the county they should not also be rated for the roads. The case seemed to him made out for making them contribute to the roads.
    LORD GEORGE CAVENDISHreferred to the cases of county roads being almost exclusively used by the inhabitants of neighbouring towns. The road from Brighton to Rottingdean was an example of a road where some portion of the cost of repair ought to fall on the town.
    MR. PAGETwould like to ask whether there were any main roads subject to Clause 11 existing within the Metropolis or not; and, further, if there were any such roads, whether the Metropolis would not be entirely absolved from maintaining them?
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHsaid, that some parts of the Metropolis certainly contained roads such as were alluded to. He did not think anything would be gained by including any part of the Metropolis in the area for the calculation of the county rate. The subject was a difficult one; but when they could find time they would deal with it.
    MR. STANSFELDthought it would be better to deal with these questions

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    before passing from this clause. He was not quite satisfied with respect to Quarter Session boroughs; they should be liable equally with other parts of the country. At all events, the subject was one well worthy of discussion.
    MR. WHITWELLsaid, it was clear this matter could not be settled that evening. It would be well if the right hon. Gentleman placed his proposed Amendment on the Paper before the time arrived for its consideration.
    MR. SCLATER-BOOTHmoved to report Progress.
    Motion agreed to.
    Committee report Progress; to sit again upon Tuesday next, at Two of the clock.
    The Sitting was suspended at ten minutes to Seven of the clock.
    The House resumed its Sitting at Nine of the clock.

    SUPPLY.—COMMITTEE.
    Order for Committee read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
    Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,
    House adjourned at five minutes after Nine o'clock till Monday next.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Supreme Court of Judicature Act (Ireland), 1877, Amendment * (139).
Second Reading—Intermediate Education (Ireland) (132).
Committee—Report—Inclosure Provisional Order (Orford) * (127); Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation (No. 1) * (109); Dental Practitioners * (123–140).
Report—Highways (South Wales) * (98).
Withdrawn—Corrib (Galway) River * (113).

INTERMEDIATE EDUCATION (IRELAND) BILL—(No. 132.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
Moved, "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Lord Chancellor.)
LORD WAVENEYsaid, when his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack introduced this measure, he ventured to hail it as one well calculated to promote Intermediate Education in Ireland, and so accomplish the work which the old diocesan schools had been founded to perform, and further consideration of the measure confirmed him in that view.
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From his own personal knowledge, he could say that some of those schools had given an excellente ducation to members of the three great Churches, while they had been no burden on the people generally, being supported by the Clergy. It was, however, useless to conceal from themselves how liable were their best hopes to be frustrated in the matter of schemes for Irish education; and it seemed, from the experience of the past, that when an endeavour was made to draw the different Churches together, that endeavour failed in proportion to the sincerity with which it was made; and, in the present case, he confidently believed that no measure could be offered to the consideration of the country which was more unlikely to raise any of the feelings which had caused the defeat of the measures which had been proposed in the past. The scheme which had now been introduced by the Government appeared to him to deserve well of their Lordships, and he trusted it would be persevered with, notwithstanding any points of difficulty which might present themselves. No measure was ever proposed affecting Irish education which did not raise difficulties between the classes who were educated at the National Schools and those who went to the Primary Schools. He believed there were many who would take advantage of the schools proposed by the Bill. He cordially approved of the principles of the Bill, which embodied free schools, free teaching, and free scholars. The advantages offered to the country were not to be over-rated, and the country would only have itself to blame if it did not take advantage of the opportunity now offered. He was gratified with the attention which had been already paid to the Bill. He had received letters from gentlemen of the highest intelligence indicating their firm confidence in the good fruits which might be produced by this system of education if it were sagaciously and wisely administered. He had received one letter from the lady secretary of a leading educational establishment in Dublin, in which she begged that, at the proper time, he would move that the benefits of the Bill be extended to the ladies of Ireland. If ever there was a scheme which had a fair prospect—a more than fair prospect—a certainty of success, it was this one; and he should be surprised if other noble

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Lords sitting on his side of the House did not as cordially support it as he did.
LORD O'HAGANsaid, he had great pleasure in offering his cordial thanks for this Bill, and he thought the Government were entitled to the gratitude of the country for its introduction. Having promoted such a measure, it was now incumbent upon the Government to take care that it should not be delayed, but that it should become law during the present Session. That was a matter of great importance to Ireland; and if there was anything which he could possibly grudge his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack, it was his good fortune in having had the splendid privilege to introduce a measure which in itself, and in its consequence, he believed, would be fraught with so much good to Ireland. The first question for their Lordships' consideration was, whether there were sufficient reasons or not for the introduction of a scheme of Intermediate Education? For many years they had had great discussions in Ireland on the subject of Primary Education, and for many years there had been a conflict of opinion as to the existence and operation of the National Board. That Board had its shortcomings, and it might have had its errors and defects, but it had been successful in spreading schools over the country from the centre to the sea; and the results upon the youth of Ireland, of a class not so high as that to which this Bill addressed itself, must be in the highest degree encouraging to every man of good feeling and good understanding in the country. He would read to their Lordships a startling statement, though its truth could not be doubted, considering the authority by which it was made. From figures quoted a short time since by the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, it appeared that England had 72¾ per cent of the population of the United Kingdom, Ireland 17 per cent, and Scotland 10¾ per cent. Since 1871 there had been 1,918 places in the Excise and Customs bestowed in public competition. For these places there had been 11,371 candidates, of whom 11 per cent were Scotch, 46 per cent English, and 43 per cent Irish. Of the places, Scotland gained 6 per cent, England 38 per cent, and Ireland 56 per cent. Of every 100 Scotch candidates 9 passed; of every 100 English, 14; and of every 100
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Irish, 22. Why did he quote those figures? He quoted them to show what the young men could do when educated; but what were their opportunities? The Irish boy could distance his competitors in the struggle for the humbler positions in the public service; but here he must bound his ambition and abandon hope. If he desired to look higher, and raise himself by honest efforts and assiduous culture to a better position in life, the way was barred against him. Every lad in Scotland had a classical school within easy reach of his home, and endowments invited English students to progress and to honour. It was said that a few years ago one-fifth of all the alumni of the University of St. Andrew's were the sons of labourers; but in Ireland, youths similarly situated could not compete for the higher offices, which were the reward of liberal education. This was from no national inferiority and from no social disqualification, but for the lack of the information which the State had refused to supply, and by its action had denied them redress. A million of children were educated in Ireland in the National Schools. About the age of 15 their education was completed. Up to that age they were amongst the best educated youths in Europe, but from that time they were without hope for their further advancement, however they might feel within themselves the impulses of genius and the consciousness that they were worthy of a higher destiny. According to the Returns taken in 1871, there were in Ireland learning Latin only one in 923 of the entire Catholic population, and one in 259 of the Protestants; while there were learning Greek—of the Catholics one in 1,207, and of the Protestants one in 398. These figures spoke most forcibly of themselves. They showed how completely had been the decadence of Intermediate Education in Ireland in recent times; and they showed also that the Catholic population, as they had the deepest interest in it, ought to make the most earnest efforts for the success of the system proposed by the Government. The sad history of Ireland had no blacker page than that which contained the narrative of her educational efforts during the last 200 years; and without doubt her demand for reparation in this respect constituted her strongest claims

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on the Imperial Legislature. An Act of Henry VIII. provided for the establishment of schools in every parish, but it had been allowed to fall into desuetude; and in the institution of endowed schools, down to a recent period, the action of every successful statesman was conceived in a sectarian spirit, and had for its object the propagation of peculiar religious tenets, and not the advantage of the people, whom it was vainly desired to coerce and corrupt into the adoption of them. The endowed schools were not originally or legally exclusive, but they became practically so, and were of no benefit to the great mass of the people. The old legislation of the penal times was the most abominable which the perverted ingenuity of man ever invented to debase humanity, and aimed to keep the Catholic population in a state of utter ignorance only to be avoided by the sacrifice of faith and honour. A Catholic parent could not instruct his own child; a Catholic teacher could not bring up a Catholic pupil under penalties of the heaviest kind; and from the benefits of the educational endowments the Catholics were rigidly excluded. This fearful system continued to blight the intellect of the country for 90 years; and it was only wonderful that the people, ever eager for knowledge, and always aided to struggle for it by the Catholic priesthood, managed to get it in obscure places from humble teachers who ventured to defy the law. The Charter Schools aimed to Protestantize the country by robbing parents of their children, and compelling them to submit to instruction which they detested. They flourished for years, but their monstrous abuses—their cruelty, filth, and utter inefficiency—were exposed by Howard in one of those meritorious efforts of his noble life, and they eventually gave place to other institutions, which still laboured, though with mitigated virulence and equal absence of results, to undermine the ancient faith. Finally, Lord Derby's scheme of National Education was abandoned. This hopeless work of proselytism aimed at giving the Irish people united secular education and separate religious instruction. In spite of the shortcomings of that scheme, it had bestowed on the Irish people, as had been well observed, the greatest benefits which they had ever derived
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from the Imperial Legislature. He had endeavoured to show to the House some of the remarkable results of its operations in the success of the competition for places in the Civil Service, and they were made more manifest in other ways; but they had not all been equally beneficial—surgit amari aliquid. The noble and learned Lord (the Lord Chancellor) had already observed how they had tended to destroy the old schools, which gave, in so many cases, a good classical education. The masters were maintained by the majority of their scholars, who sought only some English education, and they were able to supplement their incomes from those who desired a higher culture; but when the State drafted away that majority by its liberal subscription to the National Board, these schools, of necessity, ceased to exist. This evil had been great and universal, and it was not unfair to ask Parliament, whose action, although for purposes most beneficent and most successful, had produced that evil, to supply a sufficient remedy. The schools which had formerly existed in the North and South had nearly become extinct. In Kerry ripe scholars used to be found among the bogs and mountains, and the Northern Province, where the noble and learned Lord (the Lord Chancellor) and he first saw the light dawn, had modest seminaries, which had sent many a distinguished man to the legal and clerical professions. In Newtownstewart the people told their own tale in a Memorial to the National Board, deploring the extinction of the old schools of their parents, which had sent hundreds of pupils to the various professions, many of them attaining high distinction. The National Board was so pressed by representations of this kind that it was ultimately induced, perhaps without sufficient authority, so to dispose of the resources devoted to Primary Education as to offer some small result fees to teachers instructing in classics before or after the ordinary school hours; but that aid was, of course, utterly inadequate to meet the necessities of the case, and last year only 305 pupils passed in Latin and 90 in Greek. He, as one of the Commissioners, was not prepared for this, because he thought that the funds were intended for the poor; but what could they do? He would read two passages from the Memorial. It spoke of the

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people affected by the Board, and stated that—
"The first is a list of the boys primarily affected by the Board's order, those—namely, who formed the Latin classes in Newtownstewart School, with a statement of their social position and that of their immediate relatives. The Board will observe that though in humble or struggling circumstances, they are just of that class from which the Professions are in fact recruited or have been hitherto. Nearly all of them have uncles, full cousins, or elder brothers, who have made their way to the Professions.
"The second list contains the names of more than 20 teachers who actually have imparted classical instruction, since the year 1800, in different districts of this parish—in Newtownstewart, Lisnatanny, Douglas, Ardstraw Bridge, Crew Bridge, Dreguish, Magheracriggan, Erganagh, or Clare—not all simultaneously, but two or three or four at a time, as the wants of the localities varied. At present, with some 25 National Schools in the parish, and several Church Education Schools besides, there is no classical or other superior instruction whatsoever. And we have every reason to fear besides, that the little English which is learned in early childhood is, for want of being kept up and carried on, mostly forgotten before the age of puberty.
"The third list represents in part the fruit of this old-fashioned instruction, a list—namely, of those natives of the parish, who, since the year 1800, have actually reached the Professions. And we say 'in part,' for our list is most incomplete; more careful inquiries would, we are satisfied, increase it 25 per cent or more. It contains, however, between 300 and 400 names. And many of these, the Board will observe, not only reached the Professions, but attained to some eminence therein.
"Our Clerical list contains a Dean of May-nooth and several Protestant Rectors; our Medical list includes three who each won the honours of knighthood. And all this we add, not without some pride, is from a parish whose only resources are agricultural, whose resident gentry are few or none, and where the average size of the farms is under 20 acres of but middling land—of land reclaimed with difficulty from rock or bog or mountain."
He did not think a more interesting statement could be laid before the House, or one which showed in the most complete way the great and pressing necessity for supplying the want of Intermediate Education, caused by the destruction of these schools. The admirable Report of the Senior Commissioner of 1866 was conclusive as to the continued decadence of Intermediate Education. He would only add to the figures stated by his noble and learned Friend, that in 1866 there were 1,504 private schools in action, which in 1871 had diminished to 612, the decrease of pupils in the same period being 24,782.
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The Committee declared, with deep regret, that all available evidence pointed to a similar rapid retrogression. No wonder that the community had been alarmed by such a state of things. There had been an unanimous universal outcry, for the North Endowed Schools Commissioners in 1857 testified most strongly to this, and to the anxiety manifested by all people of all parties and religions in every district in Ireland for some provision for middle-class institutions; for some assistance to those who were willing and earnest to obtain some distinction by honest industry and mental cultivation. The Commissioners strongly urged the compliance with a demand so just and reasonable, and suggested something of payment by results, which the Government approved, as an ample means of improving Intermediate Education. But 20 years had gone, a generation had passed away, the effects which were naturally to be expected had been produced, the intellect of Ireland—to use the words of the Census Commissioners—had been "starved and warped." A moral paralysis had affected the mind of the country. The people had ceased to know or care for better literature. Book shops were vanishing from the country towns, and the publishing trade, which in the last century was large and flourishing, was almost extinct. Once the publishers of Dublin produced multitudes of expensive works—encyclopædias, dictionaries, books of science and travel, and classical criticism; but the production of such books had almost now ceased. Those who read might look abroad for the means of indulging their literary appetites. The want of the love of reading had resulted from the want of education, from which the love of reading came. Ireland could produce naturally men of literary ability if education was available; and unless there be a change and a supply the result to the character of Ireland—intellectually, morally, and socially—must be of the most serious and lamentable description. In a political sense, too, it was very desirable just now that all these things should be looked at. The question of education was at the present time the question of the world. They had given the Irish people the franchise and the ballot, and possibly they might give them at some future time a Parliament; and it was, therefore, very important that

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the people should be educated. The franchise was a blessing or a curse, according to how it was used; and it was necessary that the great instrument of education should be wisely and considerately employed. In Ireland there was material progress, but mental retrogression. Irish literary ability found scant encouragement at home, and was driven to seek employment and reward in other countries. He lamented that he should be obliged so to speak of the state of things which prevailed in Ireland; but their Lordships should understand it in order to appreciate the necessity for this measure they were asked to adopt. With regard to the Bill itself, he did not think he would trouble their Lordships with a discussion of details after the measure had been so fully explained by the noble and learned Lord (the Lord Chancellor). A Bill of this description might be valuable or valueless, according to the nature of its administration. It might be a blessing or a curse, according to the manner in which it was carried out. It appeared to him to be quite sufficient if the same fair and impartial spirit which dictated the framing of the Bill were applied to its administration. If rightly and properly administered the scheme would be an admirable one, and would commend itself to their Lordships as an honest effort to supply a great national want and in a just and judicious manner. It was admirable in itself, in its consequences, and in the principle that it adopted. It respected the rights of conscience; it did not interfere with religious susceptibilities; it encouraged individual effort and rewarded it; it absolutely and impartially dispensed the bounty of the State; it aided and improved and consolidated the efforts of scholastic institutions; and it did all this without vexatious interference with the internal management of these institutions. That was all excellent; and, for his part, he thought very little more could be desired. It devoted to good purposes a fund which could not be more fitly employed than in making reparation for the past evil, and giving assurance for a better future. His only anxiety at present was that the Bill might not be made the law of the land this Session. He hoped, however, there would be no endeavour to defeat it by extravagant demands on the one side,
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or captious objections on the other. He trusted that, seeing this Bill was one for the benefit of Ireland, all Parties would unite in passing it. This settlement had been too long delayed, and he could conceive few things more criminal than it would be to delay it any further. For his own part, he had lamented—and always should lament—that the great University Reform for Ireland introduced by the late Government, which was conceived by an earnest desire to promote the welfare of Ireland, had not passed into law. He was convinced it would have done great good for Ireland; but that was a matter of the past. They must now look forward to the future to see that generations of Irishmen should not pass from infancy to old age with lapsed opportunities and blasted hopes—and live and die without the culture which might enable them to advance themselves and serve their country. The youth of Ireland had not the advantages of a great commerce, of great manufactories, or of ships, or of mines; but they had what, under certain conditions, was as good as any of those things—they had considerable mental power, and that possession should no longer be thrown away or allowed to stagnate and waste itself in hopeless inactivity. It was because he believed this Bill would afford a means for the successful development of that power that he gave it his hearty support. He fondly believed that a better day had come for Ireland; and that through this measure and those which might come after it, designed in the same good spirit, that mental power might find a full and prosperous development. The angel of Siloam stirred the sluggish pool and the healing influence descended—the spirit moved upon the dry bones in the prophet's vision, and they grew to shapes of beauty—and, with God's blessing, they would see Ireland launched on a new career and roused to generous action, awakened soon to new life and new hopes.
VISCOUNT MIDLETONlooked at this question from a different point of view from that of his noble and learned Friend who had just spoken; but he did not know that his conclusions were very different. He thought he could speak with some authority on the subject, because for some years past he had been one of the Trustees of an in-

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termediate school in the South of Ireland, which, he was sorry to say, had not been successful. In the present generation he knew of a school in existence which was endowed 200 years ago. In the course of the last century the endowment which had been secured to it had been reduced to less than one-third of what it originally was. The consequence of the present state of things was, that there was really very little inducement to a man, if he were not a man of extraordinary energy and love for his work, to take up the profession of a schoolmaster. But, even supposing that the pecuniary remuneration were sufficient, which it was not, there was the difficulty that there was no recognized Board examination to which the master could submit his pupils to test their comparative success and, what was far more important, his efficiency as a teacher as compared with the teachers of other institutions. If that want alone were supplied by the present Bill he should consider it a great boon to Ireland. But a great deal more would be done. It would give the master a fresh interest in his work, because it would give him a direct pecuniary advantage in the number of pupils who passed the examinations. It would, at the same time, give to the pupils a new stimulus to exertion in the exhibitions it would open to them, and the assistance it would afford them in their entrance into the tussle of life. He knew an instance, in which the son of parents in a very humble position, and of very limited means, was able, through the small exhibitions that at present existed, to obtain everything that could be obtained at Trinity College, Dublin; and when he last heard of him, he was a successful candidate for the public service. That was the class of pupils they wanted to assist in every possible way, because they were the class from which they might expect to get good public servants; but at present they were practically without the assistance which had long been furnished, by Universities and kindred institutions, to those in a similar class of life in England. He had taken the opportunity, since the Bill was laid upon the Table, of communicating with those on the other side of the Channel, who had been for their whole lives practically interested in the work of education and he found but one opinion—
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that the Bill, if passed into law, would be the most valuable aid, in an educational point of view, that had ever yet been extended by Parliament to the sister country. If he might be permitted to criticize, there were two provisions which he should like to see somewhat modified. First, as regarded the age at which pupils were to be permitted to present themselves for examination, he could not help thinking that the age named in the Bill was somewhat too high for the case of Irish boys, and he would suggest that it should be fixed at 15, or, still better, at 14. In his country it was beyond the power of parents, in the great majority of cases, to keep their children at school beyond that age. A large number of the boys who were brought up in those schools as they existed, and a still larger number of those who would be brought up in the intermediate schools as he hoped they would exist, were intended for commercial life, for clerkships in banks, and other similar employments in our cities and towns, and in their case the continuance of the education up to the age of 19, in the intermediate schools, would be a mistake. It would, therefore, be a very great advantage if the Board, which was to be called into existence by the Bill, fixing whatever standards it thought proper, were to permit boys of a younger age to compete in those standards. In many cases he believed they would be able to attain the standard, and be able to enter into the duties of active life, at a somewhat earlier period than would be the case if the provisions of the Bill were to pass as they stood. Another point which he should like to mention had reference to the subjects in which the pupils were to be presented for examination. With the greater portion of the subjects mentioned he entirely agreed; but he rather doubted whether it would be possible, unless matters changed very much, to teach boys in intermediate schools in Ireland much in the shape of natural science, and he was inclined to think that that particular branch of education would be better left to those who ultimately went up to the Universities. There was only one other point on which he desired to touch. He was extremely anxious that the Conscience Clause should not be made too stringent in the case of Ireland. From the peculiar circumstances under

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which education was conducted in Roman Catholic schools, it was very doubtful whether the children of Protestant parents would ever be sent to them, and there was no fear of a competent master of a Protestant school interfering with the religious belief of his Roman Catholic pupils. The self-interest alone of the schoolmaster would point out to him that it was exceedingly desirable for him to take proper means to prevent matters of faith being touched upon in a system of education which was pursued for a different purpose. Looking at the Bill from a practical point of view, he thought that it contained elements of great hope for the future education of Ireland. It would bring into existence, in the first place, that to which he attached the greatest importance—a competent Board of Education. It would supply an independent system of examination, which would cover all the schools in the country, and thus they would be able to compare one with another, and to see who were the most competent teachers. When parents had the opportunity of testing the efficacy of the teaching in the different schools, there need be no fear of the best masters failing to get the best support. Secondly, you would obtain an addition to the salaries of the masters, which was at present grievously needed. What was wanted was to engage the highest possible stamp of man, be his opinion what it might, to enter upon the instruction of the youth of the country. At present such men were to be found in a very limited number, and the demand was greater than the supply, even as it was. If they were able to offer proper remuneration, there would be no difficulty whatever in obtaining competent men, and they would have the general standard of education immeasurably improved. Thirdly, the Bill would provide that which in Ireland was of the greatest possible importance—a subsidy for boys of unusual talent, or even for those of ordinary talent, who made the best use of their time, affording them the opportunity, at present much needed, of raising themselves in the social scale. Those were the reasons why he hoped the Government would leave no stone unturned to pass the Bill into law in the present Session.
LORD CARLINGFORD: I do not feel quite able to echo the extreme enthusiasm of the last speaker as to the un-
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paralleled merits of the Bill before us; but, at the same time, I am loth to differ from him, or to question what he has said on the subject. Indeed, whoever has taken any part in the subject of Irish Education—as I at times have done—must recognise the great importance of the Bill, and take an interest in its success. I, therefore, rise for the purpose of adding my voice, by way of welcome, to the voices of those who have already spoken on both sides of the House in favour of the Bill. I am ready to welcome it, because I believe it to be a practical, and evidently a sincere, attempt to deal with the most neglected and the most starved part of the Irish educational system; and especially I welcome it because it attempts, with a fair prospect of success, to provide for the Intermediate Education of the largest and most neglected portion of the population of Ireland. It professes to be a Bill to promote Intermediate Education in Ireland. I hope and expect that it will promote Intermediate Education generally over the whole country, without exception of classes or creeds. The great blot of our educational system in Ireland, and of many former attempts at educational legislation, has been that we have not managed to promote education in Ireland generally and without large exceptions. Those classes in the country whose education had already in former days been largely promoted found their education promoted still further, and have obtained, and are now enjoying, large advantages from the legislation of Parliament; but those classes whose education in the old, and what I may call the bad, times had not been promoted, but, on the contrary, had been depressed and even crushed, have failed to obtain even from the well-meant legislation of Parliament of recent years that amount of advantage to which they had every claim, and of which they were in by far the greatest need. That is the state of things with which we have to deal now. The statement I have just made is, I believe, true as to every part of Irish education other than primary; but it applies especially to Intermediate Education. There is a little poem by the poet Moore, which was famous in its day, and which was a kind of political parable applied to the Established Church. The poet called it The Dream of Hindostan, and in it he described a

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city, the inhabitants of which were forbidden by their religion to eat butchers' meat as food. He says—
"But how is this? I wondering cried,
As I walked that city, fair and wide—
And saw in every marble street,
A row of beautiful butcher's shops—
'What means for men who don't eat meat
This grand display of loins and chops;'
In vain I asked. 'Twas plain to see
That nobody dared to answer me.''
This parable was applied at the time to the Established Church; but it is not without its application to the system of education in Ireland at that time and since. The fact is that in ancient and modern times we have been offering educational food to the people upon such terms that they have not been able to swallow it. If that were to be the result of the present proposed legislation it would only add to the number, I will not say of failures, but of most imperfect measures and partial successes that have hitherto been passed by Parliament. I do not apply these observations to the National Schools of Ireland. The National School system is one of which we are all justly proud, and of which the success has been great; but the moment you get above primary schools my statement, I am afraid, is too true—that is to say, that all the schools above that class, although doing great good within certain limits, have failed to promote, generally and universally, the education of the people of Ireland without exception of class or creed. The model schools of Ireland, the training schools of Ireland, which are still the blot and the opprobrium of the educational system of Ireland, the Queen's Colleges, even Trinity College, Dublin—that great and distinguished and in its way most valuable institution—and more especially the endowed schools for the purposes of Intermediate Education, have failed in that respect. As a Protestant, I rejoice that the Protestants of Ireland have the numerous educational advantages which they possess both from ancient times and from modern legislation. I admire their industry and energy; and I know, and am glad to know, that they have made, and are making, the best use of those advantages; but I desire—as I am sure all your Lordships would desire—that those advantages should be common to all the people of Ireland; that the advantages of education should be put
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within the means and within the consciences of every part of the people of Ireland without distinction of class or of creed. And it is because I hope and expect that the terms on which Intermediate Education is offered in this Bill will be practically available for all the people of Ireland, that I am ready to give it a cordial welcome in this House. It is true that the Bill offers all its advantages not only to that portion, forming, I believe, the majority, of the people of Ireland which is in a state, comparatively, of educational destitution, but also to that portion which has already considerable educational advantages. It may be said, by way of objection and criticism, that those who are already endowed in respect of Intermediate Education will be still further endowed and provided for; and that those who have exceptional advantages for obtaining that education which will enable them to compete for these prizes and result fees, will be able to compete for them upon equal terms with others who are not so favourably placed. I do not mean to dwell upon that part of the question. I will not raise it as a criticism upon the Bill, and I do not feel inclined to raise it, because I am satisfied there is nothing in the terms on which these advantages are offered to the majority of the people of Ireland which will prevent them from making full use of them. There is one clause which I think does require explanation, and perhaps re-consideration, from the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack. It has been mentioned already by the noble Viscount opposite (Viscount Midleton)—I mean Clause 7, which imposes a kind of Conscience Clause upon all schools which shall avail themselves of this Bill. I doubt the necessity or the wisdom of the new Board of Intermediate Education making itself responsible in the matter of a Conscience Clause for the internal and domestic arrangements of the schools which may send up candidates for these examinations. I doubt the wisdom or the prudence of extending the Conscience Clause system from primary schools, where it is necessary, to intermediate schools, which are of a totally different class, and in regard to which it is not only not necessary, but might work injuriously. I hope the noble and learned Lord will consider the advisability of

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giving up that clause. There is one other point on which I should like to say a word. I entirely agree with those who have urged the great importance of the constitution of the Board of Commissioners who are to administer this Act when it becomes law. I see that there are no qualifications laid down in the Bill, and no restrictions whatever upon the Government in the choice of the members of the Board. I do not say that it would be easy to lay down any such qualifications or restrictions. Perhaps it is better as it stands; but it is impossible for us in this House to impress too strongly upon the Government the vital necessity, if the Bill is to be a success, for the greatest care and liberality in the choice of the members of the Board. It will, for that purpose, be absolutely necessary that the members of the Board should be men capable of forming an enlightened judgment upon all educational questions, and especially upon such questions as will come before them in connection with these examinations and the distribution of the funds. It is not enough, in a case of this kind, to obtain men distinguished for their literary and educational attainments. There is one thing even more necessary than that, and that is that the members of the Board should be men capable of obtaining the confidence of all classes and creeds of the people of Ireland. I am convinced that no one who knows the country will differ from me when I say that that condition is necessary and essential. If the confidence of the people of Ireland of all creeds is to be obtained for this Bill, and its full advantages are to be realized, it is necessary absolutely that those who are to work the machinery of the Bill—if it becomes law, as I hope it will before long—and those who are responsible for the distribution of the fund, shall obtain and retain the confidence of the people, not of one class or creed, but of all. If that is sufficiently provided for in the choice made of members of the Board, I hope and believe the Bill will turn out to be a success; that it will mark a very great step in advance in the education of the people of Ireland; that it will remedy the most neglected part of the educational system; and that it will lead, in future years, to still further measures of improvement.
THE EARL OF BELMOREsaid, he had no doubt the Government would take pains to select the best persons to form the Board; and he quite agreed that persons of literary distinction were not necessarily the best to be placed upon a Board of this sort. While he was on the subject of the Board, he should like to ask his noble and learned Friend on the Woolsack what was to be the exact position of the Assistant Commissioners? It appeared that the Assistant Commissioners were to be also Secretaries of the Board, and, if necessary, Inspectors; and, further, that the Board was to define the duties of the Assistant Commissioners. What he wished to know was, whether the Assistant Commissioners were to be in all respects the equals of the other Commissioners, and to vote as members of the Board? Then, with regard to the Conscience Clause, he was very much inclined to agree with his noble Friend who spoke last, that possibly that clause had better be omitted from the Bill. It was a clause commonly inserted among the Rules of the National Board; but the cases were not by any means on all fours. The duties of the National Board were to provide education; but, in this case, the duties of the Board would be merely to secure an independent examination. At the same time, it was quite clear to those who knew Ireland that all who would receive education under the provisions of the Bill would get it in schools where the teaching of religion would be little thought of or considered. The Bill provided that the Board should, at the beginning of each year, publish a list of Examiners; and he believed it was intended that the appointment of the Examiners should be for one year only. Now, he was told that one of the great difficulties in regard to the endowed Schools was in the selection of Examiners; and that in one of the schools in the county where he resided the examinations were conducted with considerable difficulty. He would venture, therefore, in Committee, to propose an Amendment to the clause with reference to the Examiners, so that the appointments should not necessarily be for only one year; but, of course, if the alteration was objected to be should not press it. He did not think that there were any other points in the Bill with which he need trouble their Lordships. The

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noble Viscount near him (Viscount Midleton) had raised an objection to the age of the pupils; but the age was, as a matter of fact, the maximum and not the minimum. He heartily joined with noble Lords on both sides of the House in the hope that the Bill would obtain the assent of Parliament during the present Session.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEsaid, he would not detain their Lordships at any length; but he must say that he had listened with considerable interest to the speech of the noble Lord who spoke the last but one, because the noble Lord had long taken an active part in carrying out the education of Ireland as an undenominational system; and the speech he had made that night seemed to indicate that he would give that up almost altogether, and hand it over to the Roman Catholic clergy of Ireland, with funds, of course, provided by the State.
LORD CARLINGFORDsaid, the noble Lord had misunderstood him. In what he had said he had supported the Bill.
LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNEwould not, then, pursue the point further; but he thought the noble Lord even objected to the principle upon which Trinity College was now carried on, which, he believed, was entirely undenominational, everything in that College being perfectly open to every person of every class and creed. The noble Lord was perfectly aware that the Roman Catholic clergy had been long fighting in Roman Catholic countries to get education into their own hands; and in almost every country it had been taken out of their hands and given into the hands of the people. He would ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, who had, no doubt, considered the matter, whether there were not rather too few paid Commissioners? It had often been thought that the accusations of Party partiality amongst the Commissioners of National Education would have been got rid of if there had been a certain number of paid Commissioners. They were all aware that there had been sudden increases in the number of Commissioners appointed; and it certainly had appeared to the public that that had only been for the purpose of carrying out certain Party views of the Government for the time being.
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Then, in Section 3 of the 5th clause, a part of the duty of the Commissioners was to provide payment for the managers of schools complying with prescribed conditions. He did not know who the managers were to whom those payments would go. It appeared to him that in any of these schools the payments ought to go to the person teaching. That would be, he supposed, the head-master of the schools in question. Then, with regard to Clause 7, he thought it would be better to get rid of that altogether. He considered that undenominational education in the National Schools was an absolute necessity, if any fairness or justice was to be maintained with regard to the minorities that existed in Ireland. There were at present no fewer than 20,000 Protestant children scattered through Roman Catholic schools in Ireland; and if the system of education was made denominational, they would, of course, be excluded from the benefit of the National Schools. That was quite sufficient reason, without going further, for the undenominational system being maintained. Clause 7 was really not of much importance, except as an encouragement to the schoolmasters; because, looking at the Schedule, he saw that every Irishman of a certain age was open to offer himself for examination, the only condition being that he had been educated in any place in Ireland for a period of 12 months. If that was the case, he thought the 7th clause was put in to ensure the principle being carried out, when the promise was made, that none of the property resulting from the residue of the Church funds should be devoted towards any denominational system. He confessed that without it no such appropriation could occur. The Commissioners would have no schools of their own, but would merely offer premiums and examine those who came forward. He thought that this was a very fair proposal, and one to which there could be no objection. Every Irishman would be glad that any of his countrymen who were well educated should be able to get these fees, utterly irrespective of class or creed. Now, there was another point to which he would call the noble and learned Lord's attention. Section 4 of the 6th clause was to define the subjects and nature of the examinations. This would bear a very broad interpretation, and he thought it desirable that

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it should do so; for what was wanted—and it was wanted, perhaps, in England as well as in Ireland—was a more practical education. Intellectual education was an excellent thing; but he did not know that if it were carried too far, without being applied to those pursuits in which a man's life was to be spent, it might not become an injury. We might educate children and bring them up as if they were to get their living by education alone; whereas, do what we would, the majority of men must live by the sweat of their brow. He thought, therefore, that, if it were possible, it would be most advantageous to extend the subjects of examination even to agriculture and different trades. Their Lordships were probably aware that in Prussia every man was obliged to learn a trade, whatever else he might learn, from the Prince Imperial downwards; and as they had sought their examples for education from that country, they should not overlook this part of it. He had one more point to which he wished to ask the attention of the noble and learned Lord. He saw that in the Schedule the National teachers were excluded from the results fees under this Bill. He supposed the reason for that was, that they already received results fees in the National Schools, and could not be entitled to receive them twice. That was, he thought, an insufficient reason; and it was unfair to the teachers, who were certainly very useful members of society, that it should be left to them to eliminate such boys as were going in for the higher awards, rather than be allowed to send them forward to get results fees under this Bill.
LORD EMLYwished to add a few words to what had been said by two noble Lords near him with regard to this Bill, which was one of very great interest on the matter of Intermediate Education in Ireland, and he hoped it might become law this Session. He should have been sorry to have allowed the second reading of the Bill to pass without saying a few words upon it, and thanking the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack for having introduced the measure. Indeed, the only part of the speech of the noble and learned Lord which appeared to him in the slightest degree liable to exception was, that although the language he used was strong, he did not adequately
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describe the terrible evils which had been produced by the present state of things. It would, perhaps, be not out of place to say a few words on those evils. Out of every 100,000 of the inhabitants of Scotland 371 were receiving education in endowed intermediate schools; out of the Protestant population of Ireland 199 out of every 100,000 received this education in endowed intermediate schools. How many Roman Catholics received their education in the same way? Only two of every 100,000. This state of things arose from the unhappy legislation of former times, as his noble and learned Friend had said. At the time endowments were allowed to be enjoyed by Scotland and the Protestants of Ireland no Catholic endowments were permitted to be given. Who were the people who were now suffering from that condition of things? Why, they were that class of people who especially required Intermediate Education. They were, generally speaking, the farming classes in Ireland. As the noble Earl, his noble relation, stated the other day, the quantity of land in Ireland was limited, and the number of people who were desirous of getting farms was very much greater than the number of farms that could be provided for them. The consequence was, that there was a vast number of the sons and brothers of comparatively wealthy farmers who really had no means of supporting themselves; and unless they could find some means of supporting themselves, they would continue what, unfortunately, they were at the present moment—the most discontented, and, he was afraid, the most disloyal and dangerous part of the population of Ireland; because, although they knew enough to be able to read the newspapers, they had not received an education which would enable them to get on in life, and in this respect they were behind similar classes in England and Scotland. If their Lordships only looked to this great city, he believed they would find that for every 100 Irishmen employed as clerks in public offices, banks, and other institutions, there were, at least, 1,000 Scotchmen. Why was that? As the noble and learned Lord had pointed out, it was not from any defect in intelligence on the part of the Irish people, for when they had the opportunity of being properly educated they could hold their

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own with the English and Scotch. The sole reason was because they had not the same opportunities of obtaining a liberal education as were enjoyed by those with whom they had to compete for such situations. If they looked to the Colonies, they would find exactly the same results following from the same cause. Sir Charles Gavin Duffy, who had been twice Speaker of the Legislative Assembly of Victoria, and who had had immense opportunities of observing what actually took place with regard to Irishmen going to that country, had written him a most interesting letter on this subject. He would not trouble their Lordships by reading it; but he would observe that Sir Charles Duffy stated that a great number of Irishmen who went out to Australia, chiefly belonging to the middle class, were men of bright natures and bright intelligence; but on account of the want of education amongst them they had, in fact, to become hewers of wood and drawers of water, and, as compared with the Scotch and American, they entirely failed in the battle of life. Scotchmen and Americans, simply because they went out better educated, earned considerable livelihood, and rose far above the Irish immigrants in the social scale. It was not merely in the Colonies that this state of things prevailed. Any one of their Lordships who was acquainted with Ireland must have seen precisely the same thing in Ireland itself. Only the other day an institution with which he was connected in Limerick required a first-class scientific master. They put an advertisement in the newspapers, and about 20 people offered themselves for the appointment. The Committee—a most impartial one, including both Protestant and Roman Catholic Bishops—had to select the three fittest candidates, and every one of the three they had to select was a Protestant. The mode of appointment of Inspectors under the Irish National Board of Education arose from the same causes. Whenever there was a competitive examination for the office of Inspector, Protestants only competed for a Protestant vacancy and Catholics for a Catholic vacancy. That was done for the simple reason that the deficiency of education amongst the Catholics was such that, with open competition, all the Inspectors would be Protestants. These things must make
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them feel the absolute necessity of passing, as soon as possible, some such measure as that now before them, and relieving the Roman Catholics of Ireland from the degradation under which they were now suffering. The only thing for them to do was to urge the Government to press on this measure with the least possible delay. It was not a question whether this was, in the abstract, precisely the system which their Lordships would prefer as the best. Some might like to have seen something more done in the way of utilizing existing endowments for education in Ireland; but he was not going to advocate the delay of this great boon for a whole generation, as they would have to do if they were to go into this question of endowments. Many persons might ask why they did not use this large sum of money for the purpose of building and establishing schools? The answer to that was simple. Were these schools to be denominational or undenominational? He had had some experience of the House of Commons, having spent some of the best years of his life there; and he was sure they might as well try to get a stream to run backwards as to get the House of Commons to vote money for denominational schools. But with regard to undenominational schools, they would have no pupils. He could mention a most remarkable case. His noble Friend near him, when Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, had sanctioned the appointment of a Roman Catholic master to the Royal School of Bannagher. That was the first Roman Catholic master that had ever been appointed to that school. What had been the result? Up to the time that the Roman Catholic master was appointed, every single boarder in the school was a Protestant; but from that time every single boarder had been a Roman Catholic. That showed pretty clearly what they might expect; and, therefore, really it seemed to him that there was no other system, except the self-working system, which it would be possible to carry. With regard to endowments, he believed the way to prevent them from leading to idleness and want of exertion was to use them in such a manner that the proceeds could only be acquired by exertion on the part of those who were to get them; and, therefore, in his opinion, the system proposed by the Bill was not only the

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only possible system, but the best possible one. He earnestly trusted that the Government would consider the magnitude of the evils which this Bill was intended to meet, and that they would without delay press it forward through all its stages. If they did so, they would confer an enormous boon on Ireland, and earn the gratitude of the whole population; and certainly this Session of Parliament would not have been unfruitful if it conferred on that country those educational means and opportunities which would enable them to enter on the battle of life on equal terms with their fellow-subjects in the rest of the Kingdom.
EARL SPENCERsaid, he would not detain their Lordships by any lengthened observations on the important subject before them, or by making many remarks on a Bill which had elicited a chorus of general approval from both sides of the House. But he could not help saying how sincerely he trusted that this measure, so full of good principles, might bear excellent fruit and prove successful in encouraging and increasing Intermediate Education in Ireland. While this general approval had been given to the system proposed in the measure before them, the institutions which already existed in Ireland had, he thought, been a little lost sight of. It was for that purpose that he rose to follow up a remark made by a noble Friend of his on the opposite side of the House, and to ask the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack whether he would give them some further information on a subject to which, in "another place," reference had been made? He thought that, however much might be done by this Bill, it was necessary that additional powers should be given to those bodies in Ireland who were unable to reform themselves, or to those Commissioners who had the power to carry out reforms in different parts of the country. The Report of the Commission of 1858, which had been referred to, was of very great importance, and contained some very valuable suggestions. Anybody who looked at that Report would see how very unsatisfactory was the state of many of the educational endowments of Ireland, and that no power existed of improving them or of dealing with the estates under those who had the management of the
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endowments. The Commissioners who were established for the purpose of making reforms had totally inadequate power to deal with the vast questions which were brought before them. The body called the Commissioners of Education in Ireland had not even the power, neither had they the funds, to appoint an Inspector to go round to the schools. There were not large endowments for the purposes of Intermediate Education in Ireland; but, still, those endowments which did exist ought not to be lost sight of, and a great deal might be done in different localities by investing the Commissioners, who already existed in Dublin in connection with the Royal Free Schools, with larger powers.
LORD DUNSANYsaid, there seemed to be such a general assent in favour of the principle of the Bill that it was almost useless to say anything further about it. There were, however, one or two matters to which he should like to refer. This Bill seemed to say to the people of Ireland—"We have tried to please you before, and we have failed. Now you may please yourselves, and to assist you to do this we will give you a million of money, but we shall not interfere with you as to what teachers you select, or how you teach. We shall simply look at the manufactured article when it is finished, and not while it is in the process of being manufactured." That was the principle of the Bill, and he was not sure that they would not create a difficulty by deciding to shut their eyes. There would be a great responsibility upon them, even with their eyes shut; and he regretted that he could not see much provision in the Bill about inspection, which was a very important matter when they were going to spend £1,000,000. He did not use the word "inspection" in reference to the vexed and angry religious question; because he could fancy greater danger and evil than the fact that a school was conducted by a Roman Catholic priest. He could imagine some Roman Catholic priests inculcating loyalty, but there were others who might teach disloyalty; and that was an important matter, in respect to which their eyes ought not to be shut. It was the duty of the Government to look into these schools, not at all from a religious point of view, but to see what was otherwise being

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taught in them. History was to be one of the things which was to be taught. Well, he should like to know what history? Was it to be really English history, or English history from an Irish point of view? There was some Irish history which would teach nothing but disloyalty to the young men of Ireland. They were going to give large sums for proficiency in these schools, yet they might find the pupils well up in events which had not occurred. Some of the text-books which might be used in these schools might be a greater injury to the Commonwealth than the ignorance of the people. Ignorance was a danger, but systematic disloyalty, inculcated in school-books and newspapers, was a greater danger; and he did not wish to run any risk of a perfectly disloyal education creeping into these schools, which were to be subsidized by the Government. The provision in the Bill which constituted a Board of seven members, appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, was, he thought, a very reasonable and desirable one. In the 3rd clause it was enacted that the Assistant Commissioners should also act as Secretaries, and, when required, as Inspectors. From the use of the words "when required," it would appear as if inspection was looked upon as something contingent. Did the words "when required" mean that there was only to be an inspection when glaring irregularities were discovered? In his opinion, there ought to be more provision than that for the inspection of these subsidized schools. In the speech from the Woolsack, when this Bill was introduced, the noble and learned Lord (the Lord Chancellor) declared one of the conditions of payment to the schools was to be that there should be a minimum number of scholars. That was a very practical and very proper declaration on the part of the noble and learned Lord, because there were the strongest possible reasons why these rewards should not be given to very small schools, where there was the most limited attendance of scholars; but in the Bill he did not find there was any provision whatsoever as to fixing a minimum number of scholars. It was provided in the Bill that such other subjects as the Board might, from time to time, prescribe should form part of the general system of education. That was a very excellent provision, and he
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quite agreed in some remarks which had been made as to the desirableness of something practical being taught in the system of education. Allusion had been made to the success in life of Scotchmen as compared with Irishmen, and from his naval experience he was able to say that Scotchmen, as a rule, seemed to be always lighting on their legs, while Irishmen were always getting into the wrong groove, and going from bad to worse. This did not arise from any inferiority in the Irishman; but it was due to his want of education, as compared with the Scotchman. There was another provision of the Bill which said that one of the conditions of the examinations should be that the proficiency which was obtained should have been obtained in Ireland, and that the candidate should have spent the previous 12 months in Ireland. Now, Ireland might be a very pleasant country to live in, though some people said it was better to live out of it; and supposing a young man had acquired competency in education in England, he did not quite see why he was to be excluded from the benefits of this Bill. He would have learnt one thing in England, which probably he would not have learnt in the course of his education in Ireland, and that was loyalty; and altogether he would have larger general views. In conclusion, he begged to express a hope that he had not said anything which was likely to offend the susceptibilities of any of their Lordships who were Irish Roman Catholics.
VISCOUNT MONCKsaid, there was one point in the Bill regarding which he felt very strongly, and that was the 7th, or Conscience Clause. It appeared to him this was altogether an illogical clause, and had no reason to be in the Bill at all. The noble and learned Lord (the Lord Chancellor), in introducing the Bill, said it was the intention of the Government to pay for the manufactured article. Now, by this clause, he considered they would very much interfere with the process of manufacture; and it might cause considerable vexation in Ireland. The clause was almost identically the same as that which was insisted upon in the system of Primary Education in Ireland, without the same necessity for it; and it would be an interference with the intermediate schools which was not at all called for. In the case of the primary schools, it was the only

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possible way to get the children instructed; but there was no good reason why the system should be extended beyond the primary schools. With this exception, he must pay his contribute of thanks to the Government for having introduced this Bill, which he trusted would soon become law, with such alterations as their Lordships might deem necessary.
LORD INCHIQUINexpressed his approval of the Bill; but he hoped the noble and learned Lord (the Lord Chancellor) would re-consider the question of the Conscience Clause, which he did not think ought to be in the Bill. He thought its omission would meet with the approval of both the Protestants and the Catholics in Ireland.
THE LORD CHANCELLOR: My Lords, by favour of your Lordships I was allowed, on the introduction of this Bill, to state fully the views of Her Majesty's Government on the question of Intermediate Education in Ireland, and the principles upon which they desired this Bill to be framed, and I certainly should not, on the present occasion, think of repeating anything which I said at that time. I shall rather, in a few sentences, endeavour to answer the questions which have been directly put to me in the course of this debate. I must, however, in the first place, say I have heard with most sincere satisfaction the very kind way in which this attempt to deal with the great subject of Intermediate Education in Ireland has been received; and from the manner in which it has been spoken of in your Lordships' House and beyond it, I cannot but augur well for the future of the Education Question in that country. It appears to me that the great leaders in Ireland have placed in abeyance their own particular views of what, in the abstract, is the best kind of education for Ireland; and, putting those views aside, they look upon this Bill as an honest and practical endeavour to deal with the subject of Intermediate Education. It is suggested that it is an undue restriction on the condition of examination that the pupil should have resided for the 12 months previously in Ireland; and the noble Lord (Lord Dunsany) asks why pupils from England should not have the benefits of the exhibitions? Well, the simple answer to that is that this is a Bill to encourage Intermediate Educa-
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tion in Ireland, and it would not be doing that were you to allow English youths to come over to Ireland and take the rewards which are offered. I have been asked why it is that the National School teachers are to be excluded from the results fees? Now, I wish to speak with all respect of that meritorious body, and of their excellent work; and I wish them to be paid in a way which shall be commensurate to the services they perform; but it would be bad economy on the part of the State to pay these teachers, on the one hand, for giving primary education, and, on the other hand, to induce them to give a higher class of education. That would be, virtually, asking them to serve two masters, and the result would not be satisfactory. My noble Friend also says he thinks there might be other subjects for examination besides those specified in the Bill; but he will find the last heading of the various subjects for examination is so worded that any additional subject thought desirable may be added by the Commissioners. He further says that the payments ought to be made, not to the managers of the school, but to the teachers; but if the teacher is not the manager, he is a servant of the manager, and the Commissioner must deal with the principal. It would be quite idle for it to be otherwise. Then, it has been asked why there should not be paid Commissioners in place of an unpaid Board? Her Majesty's Government have duly considered that matter, and they have come to the conclusion that it is unnecessary to have a paid Board. There will be two Assistant Commissioners, who will perform the functions of Secretaries; and it does not appear to the Government that there would be a justification for a staff of paid officials over and above the two described in the Bill. Then I was asked what these Assistant Commissioners are to be, and whether they, will be co-ordinate with the Commissioners? The Assistant Commissioners will not be co-ordinate; they will be inferior to the Commissioners, as their name obviously implies. Allusion has been made to inspection, but we do not want a general inspection of the schools. We do not undertake a responsibility of that kind; but there are certain things mentioned in the Bill—conditions as to the number of pupils and the attendances—as to which it may

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be necessary to have some limited inspection, and so far as it is necessary that duty will be performed by the Assistant Commissioners. Then, an observation has been made about the Examiners, and their yearly appointment. I quite agree it would be very undesirable to have a clean sweep of Examiners every year, and that is not proposed in the Bill. The only provision on the subject in the Bill is in one of the rules in the Schedule which deals with the qualifications of the Examiners. We propose however, that every year a list is to be published, from which the Examiners for the year are to be chosen. There is nothing whatever to prevent the same persons, or any number of them, from being continued Examiners year by year; and no doubt, in order to preserve continuity, a good many of them will be continued in office year by year. I have been asked a question as to what is to be done in the Bill in regard to the Commission which the Government is about to appoint on the subject of the Endowed Schools? What I said on a former occasion was, that the Government has announced, in the other House of Parliament, its intention to appoint a small Commission of Inquiry into the management of the property belonging to the Endowed Schools in Ireland. I do not in the least deprecate—indeed, I a anxious for any change which can be made in the management of the Endowed Schools in Ireland to serve the purposes of the scheme proposed by this Bill; but I think it would be unadvisable to hang up this question till that is settled, and I sincerely trust Parliament will not mix up that question with the present measure. No doubt, it is very desirable that something should be done in regard to the Endowed Schools of Ireland; but that is a small matter when compared with the whole question of Intermediate Education. On the last occasion, I stated to your Lordships that the total landed property, including buildings, belonging to these Institutions is £13,000, and of this sum £7,250 represents the open, and the remaining £5,750 the close, Endowed Schools. Then, the noble Viscount (Viscount Midleton) has objected that the ages are not low enough, and that younger boys ought to be admitted than those of 16, 17, or 18; but the ages to which my noble Friend has referred are the maximum ages. Any boy may be
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allowed to pass the examination who presents himself, and who is able to satisfy the Examiners, provided his age does not exceed those limits. As regards the examinations in natural science, my noble Friend has expressed a doubt whether the examinations on that subject will succeed. I should be sorry in any way to imply that it is not a fit subject for examination; but I will point out that a choice of subjects is given, and that no one of them is compulsory. The only other observation I have to make is on the subject of the Conscience Clause. I have no desire to go into the general question at this time; but I am quite ready to admit that the question has a different aspect when we are considering it in relation to primary, to when we are considering its connection with intermediate schools. There are obvious differences. In primary schools we have to protect children who stand much more in need of protection; and, whereas intermediate schools are nearly always boarding schools, the primary schools rarely, indeed, are more than day schools. In regard to the language of Clause 7, some noble Lords have said that the clause is transferred from the rules for primary schools in Ireland, and another noble Lord has said the clause is almost in the words used by the National Board. That is a mistake. I believe it is transferred almost verbatim from the corresponding clause in the Endowed Schools Act for England. That is, however, a question for consideration when we come to consider the details of the Bill in Committee. I have only to repeat my thanks for the manner in which the Bill has been received, and to express a hope that your Lordships will allow the Committee to be taken on Tuesday next.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Tuesday next.
House adjourned at a quarter before Eight o'clock, to Monday next, Eleven o'clock.