Sitting of 7 August 1878

MINUTES.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee —ARMY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE — CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES, Class I.—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS; Class II.—SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS; Class III. —LAW AND JUSTICE; Class IV.—EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART; Class V.—DIPLOMATIC SERVICES—POST OFFICE PACKET SERVICE— ABYSSINIAN EXPEDITION.
Resolutions [August 6] reported.
WAYS AND MEANS—considered in Committee— —Resolutions [August 6] reported.
PRIVATE BILL (by Order—Christchurch, Newgate Street, London, Tithes Commutation, re-committed and reported.
PUBLIC BILLS—Leave—Expiring Laws Continuance*, debate adjourned.
Ordered—First Reading—Exchequer Bills and Bonds (No. 2)* [295].
Committee — Report — Statute Law Revision* [263]; Metropolitan Commons* [287].
Third Reading—Contagious Diseases (Animals)* [286], and passed.

PRIVATE BUSINESS.
  CHEIST CHURCH, NEWGATE STREET, LONDON, TITHES COMMUTATION BILL— [Lords]—(by Order.)

    THIRD READING.
    Order for Third Beading read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSONsaid, he was sorry to interpose between the House and the third reading of this Bill; but he felt obliged to ask the House to re-commit the Bill for the purpose of introducing a new clause. The circumstances, as they had been brought to his knowledge, were these. The Bill would apply to certain Crown property in the possession of the Post Office. In the Bill as it stood originally when it went before the Select Committee, there was a clause protecting that property, and saving the Act of 1865, under which, the property was acquired. That clause was struck out by the Select Committee, and for some time it was thought that the Act of 1865 would not be interfered with; that the Committee had taken a proper view of the ease, and that the
    1426
    rights of the Crown property would not be affected. But, upon further investigation, it was believed that the Bill, in the shape in which it now appeared before the House, would override the provisions of the Act 28 & 29 Viet.; and, under these circumstances, he asked the House to re-commit the Bill for the purpose of enabling him to introduce a clause which would leave the 12th section of the Post Office Extension Act of 1865 untouched. He was extremely sorry to be obliged to interfere at so late a stage with the promoters of a Private Bill, and he only did so in the interests of the State, as there had been doubts thrown upon the action of the Bill in regard to the Crown property. He found himself obliged to ask the House to consent to the introduction of a clause, and for that purpose it would be necessary to re-commit the Bill. He should, however, be willing, if the House consented to insert the clause, to move that the Bill be re-instated in its present position, and read the third time. At the same time, he considered, late as the period of the Session was, that he was bound to propose the re-committal of the Bill for the purpose of moving the clause he had indicated.
    Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "be" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "re-committed in respect of a new Clause,—(Saving rights of the General Post Office,)"—(Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson,)—instead thereof.
    SIR CHAELES FORSTERsaid, he was instructed to represent the views of the promoters of the Bill in regard to the proposed clause.
    MR. SPEAKER: It is necessary, before the hon. Member for Walsall (Sir Charles Forster) addresses the House, that I should put the Question. The original Question was that the Bill be now read the third time, since which an Amendment has been moved to leave out the words "be now read the third time," in order to insert the words "re-committed in respect of a new Clause." The question I have to submit is that the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question.
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
    SIR CHARLES FORSTERsaid, he was instructed by the promoters of the Bill to express their readiness to adopt the suggestion of the Secretary to the Treasury, and to insert the proposed clause.
    MR. T. CAVE, who had given Notice of opposition to the third reading of the Bill, said, he might state at once, in reference to the Motion of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury, that as far as he (Mr. T. Cave) was concerned, if the House permitted the third reading of the Bill at all, he should offer no objection to the clause which the hon. Gentleman now proposed to introduce. The clause, as it originally stood when the Bill came down from the House of Lords, appeared to the Committee upstairs, of which he (Mr. T. Cave) was a Member, to give additional privileges to the Post Office. They were not disposed to interfere in any way with the privileges the Post Office already enjoyed; but, at the same time, they were indisposed to confer upon them any additional privileges. It was on that account that the Committee struck out the 12th clause He thought, however, the Members of the Committee would agree with him that the clause, as it was now proposed to amend it by the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury, made it negative instead of positive, and he should offer no objection to the replacing of it in its present form in the Bill. He felt bound to make some apology for trespassing upon the patience and time of the House at so late a period of the Session, and upon a Private Bill of this nature. It was with reluctance that he did so; but he thought the House would agree with him, when he explained the motives which induced him to oppose the measure, that he had no other course open to him. On Friday last, on the Consideration of the Report of the Committee upon the Bill, an objection was taken to the further progress of the measure. He had promised the opponents of the Bill to be present in order to explain their views upon the matter. He made the promise in perfect good faith, and the opponents, accepting his promise, were not prepared with another Member to lay their views before the House. Unfortunately, the discharge of other duties prevented him from fulfilling his engagement, and therefore it was that some of the thoughts and views
    1428
    of the opponents of the Bill were not placed before the House. He proposed to lay them before the House now, with the indulgence of the House, and in a very few words. In the year 1545—it was necessary that he should recite in a few short sentences the history of this Bill, and the legislation which it proposed to carry out, so that it might be understood by hon. Members on both sides of the House. The Bill, as it stood, would materially affect the position of real property, and would deal with it in a way in which it had never been dealt with before by any Act passed by Parliament. He, therefore, sincerely trusted that hon. Gentlemen on both sides of the House would give him a short but attentive consideration. In the year 1545, St. Bartholomew's Hospital became the lay impropriators of the tithes of Christ Church, Newgate, and in that position they were empowered to levy tithes to the extent of 2s. 9d. in the pound. But, in consideration of their doing so, they were bound to repair the parish church, and they did repair the parish church until the Great Fire of London. In that great fire the church was burned down, and from that time to this St. Bartholomew's Hospital had failed in its duty, and had not repaired or, as far as he was advised, had not paid a single shilling in respect of the repair of that parish church. For the last 200 years, and since the Great Fire of London, St. Bartholomew's Hospital had accepted from the authorities of Christ Church, Newgate, an annual payment of about £200. This had been going on for two entire centuries.
    MR. SPEAKER: I understand from the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. T. Cave) that he has no objection to the Bill being re-committed with the view of inserting the clause proposed by the hon. Member the Secretary to the Treasury. That being so, the more convenient course would be to allow that clause to be introduced, and upon a future occasion, when the Bill has to be considered as amended, or upon the third reading, he will have the opportunity of making the Motion of which he has given Notice.
    MR. T. CAVEsaid, he was disposed to bow entirely to the suggestion of the Speaker. It would probably be the most convenient course to reserve his observations until the Bill, as amended,

    1429
    came on for consideration. At the same time, he might be allowed to point out that a considerable number of Members had come down to the House expressly for the purpose of considering and discussing the Bill, and he hoped they would not be inconvenienced by his acting in accordance with the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair.
    MR. RAIKES: As I understand the course about to be taken, I must confess that it appears to me to be a somewhat embarrassing one. I understand that my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury proposes, in the event of the House accepting his Motion, tore-commit the Bill, in order that the clause which he proposes to insert may be introduced in Committee of the Whole House now, and after that is done, he further proposes to ask leave of the House to re-instate the Bill in the position in which it now is. That being so, I presume that the hon. Member for Barnstaple (Mr. T. Cave) will be in a position to offer the observations he wishes to make later on, and I propose to reserve anything I desire to say in regard to the merits of the Bill until that stage is reached. At the same time, I feel that I am bound to point out to the House the extraordinary inconvenience of the unusual course which has been taken by the Post Office authorities in this matter. It is really almost playing with the Forms of Parliament when a Public Department before which a Bill of this sort has been throughout the whole of its career, only deems it necessary to object to the measure at the very last, or almost the very last, stage in its progress —namely, when it is proposed to read it the third time. The Bill has already passed through the other House of Parliament; it was brought down here, read a second time, committed and debated on the Motion for considering the Report of the Select Committee, and yet the Post Office authorities never thought proper to move in the matter until the Bill comes before us for third reading. I know it will be said that they inserted a clause in the Bill in its passage through the House of Lords, and that that clause has since been struck out by the Committee of the House of Commons. But the hon. Member for Barnstaple has told us that the Committee struck it out because they thought that it unduly enlarged the powers of the Post Office.
    1430
    Anyone who is familiar with the course taken by the Post Office in regard to Private Bill legislation will confirm that remark of the hon. Member. The House will remember that in the course of last year, in no less than 30 or 40 Bills, it was proposed to introduce unusual and extraordinary powers affecting the Post Office, and the powers of the Postmaster General; because the Government, at great expense to suitors to this House, thought it necessary to insert clauses in Private Bills instead of dealing with the matter in a general public measure. I agree, therefore, with the hon. Member for Barnstaple and the Committee upstairs that it was not necessary, in this Bill, to give increased and undue powers to the Post Office. I think the House should be careful as to allowing particular Departments of the Executive Government to override the general legislation. I have not the slightest wish on this occasion to oppose the Motion of my hon. Friend the Secretary to the Treasury, and I do not, for one moment, wish to impute to him that he is in any way concerned in the matter. I believe it was only in the course of this morning that the matter was brought under his notice, and he has taken the earliest opportunity of calling attention to it. But I do think the House would do well to note the course which is taken on the part of the Post Office; and although I do not oppose the Motion of the Secretary to the Treasury, and see no objection to this clause being introduced in the Bill if the House thinks proper to do so, yet I have considered it my duty, as guardian in some degree of the interests of suitors to this House, to make these observations.
    MR. MITCHELL HENRYthought the remarks which had been made in regard to the Post Office should not be passed by without notice. He would suggest to the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government that, as on repeated occasions, Select Committees of that House had investigated the condition of most of the Public Departments—the Admiralty, the War Office, and other Departments—there was no Department that would be so much benefited by a thorough overhauling as the Post Office. He would, therefore, ask the Government whether, during the Recess, they would not consider the question of appointing a Special Com-

    1431
    mittee, or a Royal Commission, to inquire into the whole management and condition of the Post Office administration? If that was done, he was sure the House would be astonished at the things done by the Post Office, and the public would be greatly benefited in the way of economy by a thorough overhauling of that Department.
    MR. J. COWENsaid, the clause it was proposed to insert in the Bill might or might not be judicious or desirable. With this he had nothing to do. All he had to say was that hon. Members who had not had the advantage of being Members of the Committee—and were not, therefore, so familiar with the advantages of the Bill as the hon. Member for Barnstaple—knew nothing of the nature of the clause, or how it would affect the measure. He thought that the clause, or a draft of it, ought to be submitted to the House before they proceeded further. To ask them to recommit the Bill without having the clause before them would be decidedly wrong.
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON: If the House will give me its indulgence for a moment, I should like to say a word or two after what has been said by my hon. Friend the Chairman of Ways and Means (Mr. Raikes). I think I am bound to enter a protest on the part of the Post Office against the remarks which have fallen from him, and in defence of their conduct in the matter, I may say that the Post Office did take every possible precaution, in order to carry out what I am asking the House to carry out now—namely, to protect the rights conferred upon them by the 28 & 29 Vict. In order to prevent the risk of this Act being set aside, they introduced a clause in the Bill when it was before the Committee in "another place." That clause was struck out by a Committee of this House; and, as I have stated already to the House, the Post Office have endeavoured, if possible, to meet the views expressed by the Committee. They were disposed, if it were possible, to assent to the omission of the clause altogether; but, on further consideration of the case, it was held by the legal advisers of the Post Office, consulting with the Legal Advisers of the Crown, that it would be necessary to retain the 12th section of the Act 28 & 29 Vict., which confers certain
    1432
    privileges upon the Post Office. I believe I stated what the effect of this section was when the hon. Member for Newcastle was not in the House. The object of the clause now proposed is to provide and make certain that nothing in the Act shall interfere with the Post Office Extension Act of 1865—the 28 & 29 Vict.—in regard to the imposition of tithes rates as well as poor and other rates. That section gives certain powers and certain exemptions to the Post Office, and all I ask is that those powers and those exemptions shall be retained, notwithstanding the passing of this Bill. This being the object of the clause, it was found necessary that the re-committal of the Bill should be moved before it could be inserted. I confess that I have made the proposition with very great regret at so late a stage of the Bill; but my attention was only called to the matter late last night, and I endeavoured at once to meet the difficulty as far as I could. In the interests of the Post Office it is absolutely necessary to make this proposal, and I believe there is no objection on the part of the promoters to assent to it. I may add that the Post Office authorities have done all they could in "another place," and in all the stages of the Bill to guard the interests of the Crown property.
    MR. E. JENKINSsuggested that the best course would be to re-commit the Bill and print the clause before proceeding further with the measure.
    Question put, and negatived.
    Words added.
    Main Question, as amended, proposed, "That the Bill be re-committed in respect of a new Clause."
    MR. E. JENKINSbegged to move the adjournment of the debate.
    SIR HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON: I hope the hon. Member for Dundee will not adopt that course. I have endeavoured, as clearly as I can, to explain to the House the object of this clause, and I have pointed out to the House what is the object of the action which the Government have been forced to take. I feel bound, in the interest of the Post Office, and in order to prevent inconvenience, to ask the House to allow this clause to take the course I have suggested. The words of the clause are—

    1433
    "Nothing in this Act shall repeal or alter any of the provisions of the Post Office Extension Act of 1865, and Section 12 of that Act shall be read as if the words 'tithes rates' had been inserted in that section."
    The words used in the section are "poor or any other rates," and my proposition is that tithes rates should be included.
    MR. W. E. FORSTERasked whether this new clause would in any way affect the general question of the opposition to the Bill? It must be borne in mind that, only a few nights ago, opposition was raised to the measure by his hon. Friend the Member for Derby (Mr. Plimsoll). He was not aware that the re-committal of the Bill would re-open the question raised on a previous occasion, and therefore he asked for information, because he did not think that the decision they came to the other day should be altered by a clause which they had had no time to consider.
    MR. T. CAVEremarked, that while the House was entitled to look carefully at a clause of this importance, especially after attention had specially been drawn to it by the Chairman of Ways and Means, still he was bound to say he thought the clause was not unsatisfactory as it was now introduced by the hon. Member the Secretary to the Treasury. The Post Office had distinctly abandoned the claim for new powers which was put forward in the clause as originally proposed. Having, therefore, abandoned the ground which the Committee thought they improperly took up by trying, sub rosa, to get powers which they did not enjoy under the 28 & 29 Vict., he saw no objection to the insertion of the clause which it was now proposed to substitute.
    MR. SPEAKER: Did I understand that the hon. Member for Dundee moved the adjournment of the debate?
    MR. E. JENKINS: Yes.
    MR. SPEAKER: Does any hon. Member second this Motion?
    MR. PLIMSOLL: I beg to second it.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned." —(Mr. Edward Jenkins.)
    MR. RAIKES: I hope the hon. Member for Dundee will not persist in the course he has now proposed. The clause proposed on behalf of the Treasury is, in reality, only a Government clause, and it is not open to the same objection
    1434
    that applied to the clause which has been struck out by the Committee upon the Bill. That being so, I think it would be inconvenient, at this period of the Session, and at this stage of the Bill, to protract unnecessarily the consideration of the measure. I think the best course would be to re-commit the Bill, and insert the clause; and then, if the hon. Member for Derby, or any other hon. Member who takes an interest in the question, thinks it desirable to adjourn the stage of the third reading, that would be a very proper course to take. It will be a very difficult matter to resume the debate if an adjournment takes place as proposed by the hon. Member for Dundee. I hope, therefore, the hon. Member will not press the Motion he has made; but when the next stage is taken, if no objection is made to proceeding further with the Bill now, I think the House of Commons would agree, under the circumstances, with the propriety of postponing it.
    MR. KNATCHBULL - HUGESSENsaid, he was about to say very much of what had been said by his hon. Friend the Chairman of Ways and Means— namely, that it would be undesirable at that particular moment to adjourn the debate, especially as there were other stages of the Bill upon which a discussion might be raised. He quite agreed with the remark that had been made, that it was a very bad precedent to have new clauses sprung upon the House upon the third reading of the Bill. The hon. Member for Barnstaple opposed the Bill upon other grounds, and the grounds of his opposition might be discussed on the third reading, by which time the Bill would have been reprinted, and the clause would be before the House. At present, they knew nothing about it. He would suggest that his hon. Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. E. Jenkins) should allow the clause to be added to the Bill; but on the proposition for reading the Bill the third time, there should be a reasonable delay, in accordance with the Forms of the House.
    MR. DILLWYNthought there was a great deal of force in the arguments which had been brought forward by his hon. Friend the Chairman of Committees against the course pursued by the Post Office. The matter was one of very great importance, and had great weight

    1435
    in his mind, so much so that he could scarcely follow the hon. Gentleman in his proposal to permit the Post Office to revise that clause. He entirely demurred to the establishment of a precedent that they should allow clauses of great importance like this to be sprung upon them without any notice at all. The clause was of very great importance indeed. This was plain, although they had barely an opportunity of seeing it. It appeared to him that it involved the principle of exempting the Post Office from the payment of rates, and it would be a most dangerous precedent, and might involve them in extreme difficulty in the future, if they allowed, without contest, new clauses to be sprung upon them in this way without ample time to consider their effect. He could not, therefore, agree with the proposition that they should at once re-commit the Bill, and insert the clause. He thought they ought to have time carefully to consider the clause before they passed it.
    SIR SYDNEY WATERLOWtrusted the House would not allow the progress of the Bill to be stopped. The clause proposed to them by the Government was a very simple one, and one to which neither the promoters themselves, nor those who opposed the Bill, could possibly object. What did it amount to? It amounted to this—that nothing in the Bill should in any way repeal the powers already given to the Post Office under a certain Act of Parliament which the Secretary to the Treasury quoted. It could not be supposed for a moment that the House would desire or attempt to interfere with the rights and powers of the Post Office. He believed that the power affected by the Bill as it stood was that conferred upon the Post Office with regard to rates generally, the right being given to not being assessed at a greater amount than the amount at which it was assessed before the new building was erected. He believed it was intended by the promoters of the Bill that the Post Office should not be so assessed, and, therefore, the promoters would not object to the insertion of this clause, and he could not suppose that the opponents of the Bill would. He ventured to think that the House would agree with him that they ought not, at this period of the Session, to obstruct the progress of a Private Bill, but that they would permit it now to make some pro-
    1436
    gress. The merits of the Bill were fully debated the other day.
    SIR PATRICK O'BRIENsaid, that if the clause were merely to provide that the Bill should not interfere with the general Statute affecting the Post Office, no Member in that House would feel inclined to oppose it in any way; but, as well as he could gather from the Secretary to the Treasury, the end of this clause contained other matter than a mere Government clause. If his ears did not deceive him, the end of the clause contained matter quite different from an exemption of the Post Office from the operation of the Bill. He thought there was something about church rates towards the end of the clause, as it was read by the hon. Member the Secretary to the Treasury.
    Question put, and negatived.
    Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.
    Bill re-committed in respect of a new Clause.
    On Question, "That the Clause be read a second time?"
    MR. MUNTZprotested against the mode in which it was attempted, without Notice, to introduce the clause. He thought it was establishing a very bad precedent. There might be many Members who were opposed to the clause, but who would have had no opportunity of knowing that it was to come on.
    Clause read a second time, and added to the Bill.
    SIR CHARLES FORSTERwished to state, on behalf of the promoters, that he acquiesced in the suggestion that the third reading of the Bill should be taken to-morrow.
    MR. SPEAKER: I wish to point out to the House that the next stage of the Bill is the consideration of it as amended, and after that there will be the third reading. Upon both of these stages the pleasure of the House can be taken, and therefore the hon. Member for Barn-staple (Mr. T. Cave) will have two opportunities of bringing forward his Re-solution.
    Bill reported, with a further Amendment; as amended, to be considered Tomorrow.

QUESTIONS.
  PRISONS ACT, 1877—THE NEW RULES.

    QUESTIONS.
    MR. MITCHELL HENRYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, Whether, under the new prison rules, persons in prison for the non-payment of fines or of breaches of municipal regulations, equally with graver offenders, are compelled to strip off all clothing except their shirts, and to put their clothes outside the cell, and then to lie on a deal board as a bed for the night, covered only with the prison blanket and rug; whether women and children are also subjected to this treatment; whether the Government has received remonstrances upon the subject from persons called upon to administer justice in Ireland; and, especially, whether the Chief Baron has not absolutely refused to send women to prison, except under extreme circumstances, while such regulations exist; and, whether the Government will forthwith revert to the use of beds and hammocks in Irish prisons?
    MR. J. LOWTHER: Sir, no remonstrances upon this subject have been addressed to the Government; but my attention has been called to the remarks recently made by the Lord Chief Baron and Baron Dowse. As to children, I find that they have never been subjected to the operation of the rule respecting plank-beds. With regard to women, some modification of the application of this rule in now under consideration, and I may mention that a suggestion made the other day by the hon. Member himself with reference to an alteration in the arrangement of the plank will not be lost sight of. [Mr. MITCHELL HENRY: What suggestion?] I refer to a suggestion thrown out by the hon. Gentleman in this House when asking a Question a few days ago, to the effect that an indentation might be made in the plank, which will be considered before a decision is come to upon the subject. In all cases the utmost attention is paid to medical grounds for exemption. It is not the case that prisoners are compelled to strip off their clothes and put them outside their cells. An adequate supply of bed clothing is,
    1438
    as I stated the other day, invariably supplied.
    MR. MITCHELL HENRY: Will the right hon. Gentleman be good enough to say, whether prisoners are stripped to their shirts and compelled to sleep on the bare boards? That is a Question to which I have failed to obtain a direct reply from the Treasury Bench.
    MR. J. LOWTHER: I say it is not the case. They are not compelled to strip off their clothes and leave them outside their cells. There is a night shirt and a pillow, and an adequate supply of bedclothes served out to every prisoner.
    MR. MITCHELL HENRYgave Notice that early next Session he would move for a Select Committee to inquire into the effect of the new Prison Rules, which appeared to have increased the harshness of our prison discipline.

  CHINA—THE CHEFOO TREATY.

    QUESTION.
    MR. WHITWELLasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether he can inform the House before the Recess that Her Majesty's Government will secure the confirmation of the Chefoo Treaty?
    MR. BOURKE: Sir, the Chefoo Treaty, as the House is aware, has been for some time before both the India Office and the Foreign Office, and considerable negotiations have been going on between the Foreign Office and the Government of India. I am not in a position, nor is the Secretary of State in a position, to state whether it will be possible to ratify the Treaty before the termination of the Session; but the matter has received the attention of both Secretaries of State, and there will be no unnecessary delay in the ratification of the Treaty.

  ORDERS OF THE DAY.

    PARLIAMENT — ORDER — DISORDERLY CONDUCT OF A MEMBER.
    The Order for Consideration of Major O'Gorman's conduct towards the Chair having been read,
    MR. O'SULLIVANrose and said: Before this Order of the Day is proceeded with, I beg leave to ask the

    1439
    indulgence of the House for a few moments with regard to my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Water-ford. I beg leave to ask that he may be allowed to come before the House for the purpose of explaining his conduct of last evening. I can assure you, Sir, that there is no hon. Member of this House who would be less desirous than my hon. and gallant Friend to show disrespect to this House, or to disobey the ruling of the Chair. I will not do more than ask the House to allow my hon. and gallant Friend to come before it, and explain his conduct.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I am sure that the course proposed by the hon. Member for Limerick is one that the House will gladly agree to; and if, as I gather from the remarks of the hon. Member, it is possible that the hon. and gallant Member for Water-ford will make a statement that will be satisfactory to the House, I am sure that the House will be very glad to hear him.
    MR. SPEAKER: Is it the pleasure of the House that the hon. and gallant Member for Waterford be called in? [Loud cries of "Hear, hear!"]
    The Serjeant-at-Arms was accordingly directed by Mr. Speaker to acquaint Major O'Gorman, That he had permission to return to his place. Who, having returned to the House, and taken his seat, being called upon by Mr. Speaker, rose and said: Mr. Speaker, Sir—I beg leave to submit myself to you and to this honourable House, and to express my deep regret at the occurrence which took place last night, and I hope that you and this honourable House will accept my apology. I trust that I may be allowed to add, Sir, that I acted under the influence of the greatest possible exasperation. That, however, is not now the question, and all that I have to do is to offer to you and this honourable House the expression of my deepest regret for what took place last night.
    MR. SPEAKER: The House has now heard the statement and apology of the hon. and gallant Member for Waterford. If it should be the wish of the House to proceed no further in the matter, it would be an agreeable duty on my part to declare the will of the House in favour of indulgence. The House may be assured that, while jealous for
    1440
    the character of this House, and determined so far as lies in my power to maintain order in debate, it is with great reluctance that I have put in force the authority of the Chair, as I felt bound to do upon this occasion.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, the House will, I am convinced, upon all occasions be ready to support the authority of its Speaker, and I am quite sure I shall carry with me the sentiments of every hon. Member of this House when I say that we feel that you, Sir, always exercise the authority reposed in you with the greatest possible consideration towards hon. Members. I gather from what has fallen from you, Sir, that you take the view which I own I myself take—and which, I believe, is shared by the House—that the expression of regret which has been so frankly tendered by the hon. and gallant Member towards yourself and towards the House is of a satisfactory character, and will enable us to dispense with any further proceedings — which must necessarily have been most unpleasant to us all. I therefore beg, with your permission and that of the House, to move that this Order of the Day and the next be discharged.
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I will not add anything to what has been said by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, beyond saying that nothing, in my opinion, could be more frank, more satisfactory, and more ample than the apology which has been tendered to you, Sir, and to the House, by the hon. and gallant Member for Waterford. Every hon. Member in this House will, I am sure, feel great pleasure in agreeing to the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman.
    Then, the House consenting that the said Order of the Day should be discharged, it was—
    Ordered, That the said Order be discharged.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
    Ordered, That the Order for the attendance of Major O'Gorman in his place be read and discharged.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
    The entry of this discussion upon the Votes is as follows:—
    Major O'Gorman,—The Order for Consideration of his conduct towards the Chair having been read;
    The honourable Member for Limerick County rose, and said that he had been requested by Major O'Gorman to ask leave of the House that he might be allowed to submit a statement and apology for his conduct to the House;
    Leave being given, the Serjeant was directed by Mr. Speaker to acquaint Major O'Gorman, That he had permission to return to his place:—Then Major O'Gorman returned to his place, and offered to the House and to the Chair the expression of his deepest regret for what took place last night, and submitted himself to the favourable judgment of the House:—
    Whereupon Mr. Speaker addressed the House as follows:—
    "The House has now heard the statement and apology of Major O'Gorman.
    If it should be the wish of the House to proceed no further in the matter, it would be an agreeable duty on my part to declare the will of the House in favour of indulgence.
    The House may be assured that, while jealous for the character of this House, and determined so far as lies in my power to maintain order in debate, it is with great reluctance that I have put in force the authority of the Chair as I felt bound to do upon this occasion."
    Then the House after considering the apology of Major O'Gorman, and, in consequence of what Mr. Speaker had said, consented that the said Order of the Day should be discharged.
    Ordered, That the said Order be discharged.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
    Ordered, That the Order for the attendance of Major O'Gorman in his place be read and discharged.—(Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)

    SUPPLY.—COMMITTEE.
    Order for Committee read.
    Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

  CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.

    RESOLUTION.
    MR. DILLWYN, in rising to move—
    "That, in order to facilitate the consideration of the Civil Service Estimates, it is desirable that a Select Committee should be appointed at the commencement of each Session of Parliament to go through the details of such Estimates, and report generally upon those particulars which may appear most to demand the attention of the House,"
    said, that year by year the House was finding its grasp upon the public purse becoming more feeble, whilst the Public Expenditure was assuming very large proportions, and was constantly and alarmingly on the increase. In 1857–8 the Army and Navy Expenditure amounted to £22,546,000, while this year, it was no less than £26,586,000. The increase in the Civil Service Expenditure was still more startling. In 1857 it was £14,340,000, and this year it had increased to £23,400,000. The total increase in the expenditure of the country during this period amounted to £13,100,000. Under the present system of conducting the Business of the House, the opportunities of discussing the Estimates were rapidly becoming fewer, and the control of expenditure more and more in the hands of the Government and not of the House. It was not creditable to the House of Commons, composed as it was of so many men of business, that they did not make better provision for inquiring into the details of the expenditure of the country. He had no doubt that the Estimates were all right; but it was the duty of the House of Commons not to take that for granted. The Estimates did not receive that full consideration which they ought to have, and he had noticed as recently as that morning that, during the small hours, a number of items which it had not been expected would come forward so soon had been "hustled" through Committee. He was much interested in some of those items; hut though he had returned to town specially to take part in discussing them, he was too late to do so. He was told that the House would he prorogued on Saturday week next, and there was still a great deal of Business to be done. The consequence would be that Business of an important character would be hurried through without any discussion. The hon. Gentleman was about to refer to

    1443
    the Resolutions which had been passed by the Select Committee on Public Business, when—
    MR. SPEAKERruled that as those Resolutions were not at present before the House, the hon. Member would not be in Order in discussing them in connection with the Resolution which he had moved.
    MR. DILLWYNsaid, he would bow to the opinion of the Chair, and merely Bay that he hoped the House would agree with him as to the evil which existed and the remedy which ought to be applied. The Committee he would propose must not be a Government or a Political Committee in any sense, but on the Committee there should be a Representative of the Treasury Bench and a Representative of the front Opposition Bench. The other Members should be selected from both sides of the House, regard being had to the qualifications of hon. Gentlemen for dealing with the important financial questions which would be involved. He did not think the Report of the Committee should be a very voluminous one, but he thought no class of Votes should be taken in the Committee of the House until the Report on that class had been before the House for several days. He never remembered any year in which there had been so much difficulty in obtaining explanations as to the Votes as this year. He knew the difficulties the Government had had to contend with, and, therefore, did not blame them on that score; but he thought it demonstrated how great an assistance such a Committee as he proposed would be to the Government and the House.
    MR. RYLANDS,in seconding the Motion, said: It is not my intention to occupy much time in supporting the views of my hon. Friend, as he has laid them fully before us; but I am bound to say that as the Session approaches its close, the manner in which the Estimates are taken is such as to produce an absolute public scandal. I do not want to express myself in unreasonable terms in reference to the course the Government have taken; but I do feel humiliated as a Member of this House, and representing a large number of electors deeply interested in the Public Expenditure, when I consider that under the condition in which the Estimates have been laid on the Table for consideration, I am utterly powerless to criticize, to
    1444
    check, or control the expenditure, however unnecessary and wasteful, in my judgment, it may be. Between 1 and 3 o'clock this morning several millions of money—I believe I am correct when I say between £7,000,000 and £8,000,000 came before the House—and I venture to assert that the way in which the House dealt with these heavy items of expenditure was an utter farce. Not the slightest practical consideration was given to them; and so far as the House of Commons is concerned, the Government might as well be intrusted with the utmost control over the expenditure, for they would then have had that responsibility which is always urged against any such proposal as we have now before us, and we in the House would be free. I am bound to say, after what has been said, that the Government were entirely justified in proceeding this morning. I quite understood— and I think it was generally understood —that the Government intended to bring on the Civil Service Estimates last night. I am bound to admit that at 1 o'clock I had the honour of a conversation with the hon. Baronet the Secretary to the Treasury upon the Business to be brought forward, and it was understood from his statement that, while the Supplementary Army Estimate would be postponed until to-day, the ordinary Army Estimates, and as many of the Civil Service Estimates as could possibly be taken, would be proceeded with, though the House was sitting late. It is only right to say this in justification of the course taken, and I daresay if any of us had shown any opposition to that course, the Secretary to the Treasury would not have pressed it. But it is impossible at this time of the Session to stand in the way of the Estimates by claiming from the Government sufficient time for the consideration of them. Already a great many hon. Members of the House have left London, and those who remain are wishing to get away as soon as possible —so that those who prolong discussion on the Estimates are considered very disagreeable characters indeed. In seconding this Motion, I must guard myself thus far—that I am not quite sure whether the terms of the Motion offer the best arrangement under which the preliminary examination of the Estimates could be advantageously con-ducted; but I must call the attention of

    1445
    the Government to this fact—that we are, perhaps, the only Legislature in the world where a Committee is not appointed for bringing under consideration the proposals for expenditure introduced by the Government. You have such a Committee in the Assemblies of France, Italy, Belgium; and in all parts of the world you will find that the Representatives of the people do retain in their hands the means of controlling the expenditure, and do exercise it by means of a Select Committee. I am quite aware that the Government will say that we shall diminish the responsibility of the Government in regard to the Estimates; but you must make your choice between two courses—either you must diminish the responsibility of the Government, or you must remove responsibility from the Representatives of the nation. Of course, the House of Commons is responsible for the expenditure, and, therefore, it ought to have effectual means of controlling expenditure; but it has no such control at the present moment. We do not, in proposing to give this means of control, wish to lessen the responsibility of the Government; but we wish to strengthen their hands in resisting the constant pressure brought to bear upon them by the permanent officials of the Crown. The House and country should know that it is not the political servants of the Crown, who occupy the front Bench opposite, who have the greatest control over the expenditure of the country; but it is that large permanent class of officials who are always in office, no matter whether this or that political Party commands the majority in the House, who, in every Department of the State, remain in office, and being fully informed upon all details, are relied upon by the temporary officials for a large amount of guidance and instruction. You have this great permanent class of officials, with interests directly opposed to other classes—with an interest to promote the spending of the public money by the increase of appointments, rapid promotion, and increased amounts of superannuation, so that they may have the full advantage of the position they occupy as servants of the Crown. I venture to say it is this influence of the spending servants of the Crown that puts pressure upon the heads of Departments to extend the operation of Depart-
    1446
    ments, and to enlarge Government administration. It is to this important class that we, I believe, far more than to any political Party, on one side or the other, are indebted for the increase in the burden of taxation and expenditure continually going on. I know the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and every Gentleman who has had experience in the Treasury, must be acquainted with the fact that one of the greatest duties of the Treasury is to keep down the claims of the different official heads of Departments. I know that it was so in the last Government. I cannot say that I was intimately connected with that Government, but I was associated with many Members of the late Government, and I had abundant opportunity of knowing the persistent pressure put on the Government, with the view of increasing this or that branch of expenditure, and I think the present Secretary to the Treasury will assent, when I say that pressure is still going on under the present Government. I know perfectly well it is a disagreeable thing to resist that pressure. Perhaps there is some permanent official who is a very clever, very useful, and most agreeable fellow, having at his command a great amount of information, and he goes to his political Chief and presses upon him some extension or alteration in the administration of the Department. The political Head, influenced by the ability and agreeable manners of the permanent servant of the Crown, very likely thinks the proposal submitted is one calculated to promote the Public Service. He then goes to the Treasury to ask their consent to the change proposed, and we know what hard work it is for the Treasury to resist this constant pressure in all directions. We are not by any means bound to the words of this Motion; but I do venture to urge on the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he should seriously consider whether he cannot adopt some scheme of the kind in practice among other nations, by which, while by no means releasing the Government from its responsibility, we should, at all events, have the advantage of placing the Estimates under such sifting supervision that it would enable the Treasury to rest, to some extent, on that criticism by the House, as an additional reason for resisting the pressure of Departments for increasing expenditure. In pressing the matter, I

    1447
    have no political considerations; for I know perfectly well, whichever Party is in power, there is always this tendency to increased expenditure, and I am perfectly alive to the fact that every year these permanent officials get more and more influence over the political officials. Anyone can see what I can see, with my short Parliamentary experience, what is the consequent effect on the expenditure of the country. Administrative questions, formerly referred to Select Committees, are now referred to Departmental Committees, and as these are mainly composed of men occupying important permanent posts under the Crown, the tendency is to shut out Parliamentary control, and keep the House in ignorance of administrative matters, giving to these officials an opportunity of recommending changes which do not promote the interests of any but those recommending them, and add to the weight of taxation continually being piled on our shoulders. I venture to say that this constantly increasing expenditure is to the Government of the country a serious political danger. I believe that in the course the Government are taking in enlarging official administration, now in one direction, now in another, under the influence of those permanent officials, who believe they can control local administration bettor than the people concerned, that the disposition of the Government to enlarge the control of Departments will add to the great sum total of the national expenditure; and, unless some serious step is taken to keep down that expenditure, and to get rid of scandals known to exist from the fact that large sums of public money are paid to men whoso public services do not entitle them to it, and unless something is done to deal with the superannuations which every year are becoming more monstrous in extent, I believe the time will come when, under some great public pressure —some state of public distress and dissatisfaction—strong and serious dangers will arise from the scale of expenditure in this country going on from year to year, increasing apparently without check, and with every addition to that expenditure casting an additional burden upon the shoulders of the people of this country.
    Amendment proposed,
    To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words
    1448
    "in order to facilitate the consideration of the Civil Service Estimates, it is desirable that a Select Committee should be appointed at the commencement of each Session of Parliament, to go through the details of such Estimates, and report generally upon those particulars which may appear most to demand the attention of the House,"—(Mr. Dillwyn,)
    —instead thereof.
    Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the proposal which the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn) had made was, no doubt, one of considerable importance. In one form or another, it had been brought under the attention of the House from time to time. He quite admitted that the Motion was worthy of consideration, though he did not think that the House would do well to adopt it. Two wholly different questions had been raised—first, how best to facilitate the consideration of the Civil Service Estimates; and, secondly, how best to prevent obstruction, and enable the House to get through its Business. With regard to the first point, he doubted whether the appointment of a Select Committee of this sort would be advantageous. It would to some extent diminish the responsibility of the Government, by throwing upon the Committee the unpleasant burden of criticizing, objecting to, and keeping down the proposals of the different Departments. He thought a permanent Department of the Government, having the advantages which the Treasury possessed of Executive experience and knowledge, was better qualified really to deal on system with the proposals of the other Departments than any Committee which could be appointed for the purpose. What was to be the function of that Committee? Was it to supersede, or to be in addition to, the work of the House? He thought there would be great jealousy of 20 or 30 Members of a Committee sitting upstairs, deciding that there was no necessity to raise questions upon nine-tenths of the Votes, and that only one-tenth of them need be discussed. On the other hand, if the Committee was not to supersede, or to be in addition to, the labours of the House, he very much doubted whether they would gain much in point of time. The points to which the Committee would draw attention would raise discussions. Under all the

    1449
    circumstances, having given a good deal of consideration to the subject, he did not think that it would be the best plan of dealing with these Estimates to refer them to a Committee upstairs. What he did think was that it was desirable that the Committee of the Whole House should deal with the Estimates more thoroughly and fully than they were able to do sometimes under the present arrangements. There had been every desire on the part of successive Governments to give the House full information on the matters that were submitted to it, and, at the same time, to do all in their power to arrange the Business so as to obtain a fair discussion; but they had been met with a variety of obstacles. Indeed, it really became a matter in which they had to make a choice of difficulties. If the principle was to be maintained of having discussion on all occasions before the Speaker left the Chair, in order to go into Committee on the Estimates, it was very difficult indeed to secure that the Estimates should be fairly and properly discussed. Nobody wished for a moment to restrain or fetter the exercise of that right, which was one of the fundamental and cardinal rights and principles of the House, of bringing forward questions of grievance; but, at the same time, a great deal of inconvenience arose from the attempt which was sometimes made to combine two things which were incompatible. An instance was furnished by the position in which the House was placed at that moment, when Members, having come down to discuss important Supplementary Estimates, found a list of some 20 Notices of Amendments on the Motion for going into Committee of Supply without knowing which, if any, of them would be proceeded with. In that way it often became necessary to put off discussion, or to prevent full and fair discussion of the Estimates. As to obstruction, he might alter and apply to the hon. Member (Mr. Dillwyn) a well-known quotation, and say that he—
    "Vowing men should ne'er obstruct, obstructed;"
    for he delivered a long and somewhat rambling speech upon a great number of topics, which, if now properly considered, would fill up a great part of the afternoon, and either render it necessary to put off the discussion of the Estimates,
    1450
    or prevent their full and fair consideration. He had never himself taken any very strong line with regard to obstruction. What he complained of much more than he did of obstruction was digression—digression not indulged in for the sake of obstruction, but really producing the effect which it was desired to avoid. As to the proceedings of this Session, it was certainly true that a good many of the Estimates had remained till a very late period. In consequence of the appointment of the Committee on Public Business, the Government did not this year ask for one clear day in the week for going into the Estimates, though this would have materially facilitated Supply. If, however, he went into all the reasons which made it difficult to get on earlier with Supply, he would be guilty of the same sin as he was protesting against. With regard to the Motion, he did not think that the strength of feeling in the House was such as to enable it to come to a decision upon it, and he therefore invited hon. Members to abstain from further discussion on the present occasion, and to go into Committee of Supply.
    GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURwas sorry that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not taken into his favourable consideration the proposal of the hon. Member for Swansea, which had been long on the Notice Paper. A Committee such as that suggested would be of great advantage. Under the French system, the Estimates were reduced to a form which we might with great benefit take as a model, and these Estimates were submitted to a Standing Committee for investigation, and for report to the full Chamber. So far from impeding or extending business, the Committee's inquiry actually lessened the discussions. The reason was obvious to all who examined the French Estimates—these were fully as extensive and varied in kinds of expenditure as were our own Estimates. But by looking into the arrangements and details, the facts became clear that the greater portion of the charges in the Estimates were legal and could not be challenged, unless the broad policy for which money was needed was also challenged. The result was that a few charges were alone left for objection, and thus the attention of the full Chamber was given to the items so objected to, leaving the vast mass of

    1451
    the items in the Estimates to be passed without challenge. The marked contrast between the English and French practice was that every item in our Estimates was liable to be challenged. The experienced Members could easily detect the useless challenges, and could see that by occupying the attention of the House the objectionable charges were left unnoticed. The foundation of all correct accounting rested on thoroughly good Estimates, and the hon. Member's proposal of a Committee was well calculated to insure good Estimates.
    MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, that he thoroughly sympathized with the object of the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn). The growth of the Civil Service Estimates was continuous, and alarming in more senses than as manifesting the mere growth of expenditure. Should the Motion now before the House be rejected, as he feared it might be, then the hon. Member for Swansea would do well to remember that it had been by independent action, and by means of an organization extraneous to the House, that the late Mr. Hume obtained a position in this House whereby he succeeded in largely controlling the Public Expenditure. Except by a laborious process of analysis, no one could compass the real position of the expenditure presented to the House in the form of the Civil Service Estimates. Mr. Hume established an office of his own; he employed several clerks, and so ably did he control this private establishment, that, by use of the information he thus obtained, he gained, after a time, such a weight in the House, as enabled him for many years largely to control the Public Expenditure. There was no reason that such an agency as Mr. Hume's should not be again established outside that House. The hon. Member for Swansea should look deeper into this matter, if he wished to arrive at the causes of this continual and exaggerated increase of the Civil Service Estimates. It was idle to expect that economical control could be effectively exercised over this increasing expenditure by Her Majesty's Ministers, who were either the temporary Chiefs, or subordinately connected for the time, during their tenure of Office, with the great Departments of the State. Her Majesty's Ministers were practically dependent upon these Departments for the infor-
    1452
    mation which they produced in that House, and upon which they acted. Under such circumstances, it was idle to expect those who had but a fleeting tenure of Office to exercise an efficient economical control over Departments, which consisted in the main of permanent officials, a body of public servants whose influence was continually growing. The House itself was largely accountable for the exaggerated expenditure included under the Civil Service Estimates. Session by Session, the House, largely by its legislation, contributed to the exaggeration of the Civil Service Estimates. The Session before last the House passed the Prisons Act, whereby it handed over the whole of the gaols to the Home Department, depriving, for this purpose, the local authorities of an enormous amount in the aggregate of patronage, and providing for a large addition to the Civil Service Expenditure. Again, this Session, the Bill for the Prevention of the Spread of Cattle Disease was sent to that House from the House of Lords in such form, that the slaughter of cattle at the ports would have been regulated directly by law. The House could not rest satisfied with that arrangement; it swept the whole of it away, and, in lieu of it, vested the Privy Council with very extensive discretionary powers, which were to be made dependent upon Reports to be obtained from agents abroad, and upon information to be continually supplied as to the condition of all the cattle landed at the outports of this country. This system entailed the employment of many additional agents, and, in consequence, must entail a large addition, as in the case of the Prisons Act, to the Civil Service Expenditure and Estimates. Thus largely and continuously down to the present day, the House went on providing by its legislation for the exaggerated increase of the Civil Service Estimates. High authorities— authorities whom he (Mr. Newdegate) highly respected—held that government by Commissions, which must be or become virtually irresponsible, was a bad form of government. The great Departments of the State, and especially the Civil Departments, were, each of them, under the action of the recent legislation to which he had referred, assuming the character of gigantic Commissions, and it appeared to him (Mr.

    1453
    Newdegate) that unless that House adopted some means to concentrate its power for financial and economical purposes, such as the hon. Member for Swansea proposed, it would find itself virtually impotent to control the growth, increase, and application of the expenditure, to which the Civil Service Estimates were intended to provide an index; and that some such action on the part of the House as the hon. Member for Swansea now proposed, was more and more essential to the discharge of that primary economical duty, which the House, by its very constitution, owed to the country.
    MR. M'LARENcomplained of the late period of the Session, and the late hours at which Estimates were taken. He would give an instance of how adversely this operated on national interests. On Monday last, nearly all the Scotch Estimates were taken at a very late hour. He remained there until between 1 and 2 o'clock, and counted the Scotch Members who were present at several periods during the evening, and found there were only seven present, out of the 60 which were elected by Scotland. What had become of the other 53? A large number had gone to Scotland, and were entitled to do so; because those Members that came from a great distance were put to far greater inconvenience than those that came from a short distance. They were entitled, therefore, to absent themselves at as early a period as possible. Again, the effect of the Estimates coming on so late was that few Members were able to go over them, and the Government were just left to control the whole expenditure themselves, without any influence being brought to bear upon them from the House. He did not make any personal grievance of the delay, because, during the long period he had been in Parliament, he had always, with one exception of a few days, remained until the House rose; but it was a great injustice to those who, from whatever cause, were not able to remain so long. Another ground of complaint was that, when questions of importance came on at 1, 2, and 3 o'clock in the morning, the public had no opportunity of knowing what took place, from there being no report of their proceedings published.
    SIR ANDREW LUSKthought that if they dealt with their Business like business men, they could get through it
    1454
    well enough. If they adhered to the system of allowing every Member to ventilate every conceivable petty grievance of a beadle or a man in prison before going into Supply, they must expect to have a block of Business.
    MR. MELLORsupported the proposal of the hon. Member for Swansea.
    MR. J. COWENsaid, he regretted the Government had not deemed it wise to assent to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Swansea (Mr. Dillwyn). They had had a very considerable amount of talk in the House and out of it during the last Session about the obstruction that was offered to Public Business. He was satisfied that the appointment of a Finance Committee such as was now suggested would do more to further Public Business, and to prevent what was popularly termed obstruction, than any wire-drawn Resolutions such as the Committee that had been sitting upstairs had recently agreed to. Every nation in Europe—or, he might almost say, every civilized nation in the world that had a Constitutional Government—had a Finance Committee. This body acted, not necessarily in hostility to the Government of the day, but as a helpmate and assistant in one sense, and as a check to official extravagance in another. Not only so; but Town Councils, Boards of Guardians, and Railway Boards, all had Committees to which financial questions were referred, where the items of revenue and expenditure were examined in detail, and the action of the authorities was subjected to a much closer scrutiny than it could be before the whole Council or the whole Board. He could not conceive why the Government could object to such a course. They ought not to have—he supposed they had not—anything to conceal. But there were many payments, of a comparatively insignificant character, easily explained to a Committee, which, to explain minutely to the House, would occupy a large amount of time, and not be so effective. The discussions that took place in that Chamber in Committee of Supply were desultory and deceptive. A few Members persevered with the inquiry from time to time, and others just dropped in occasionally as the conversations were going on. The same speeches were made for and against the payment of certain amounts year after

    1455
    year. Time was wasted by these debates, and really no useful information was conveyed, either to Parliament, or to the country. During the period the present Ministry had been in Office, he did not believe the House, with all its talk, had reduced the Estimates by as much as 6d. During the five years the late Government were in Office, all the change made was in defeating a single item, of no importance, one Session, and replacing it in the Estimates the next. If a Committee was appointed for the purpose of inquiring into the entire Civil Expenditure, the Members of that Committee would gain information that they could convey to the House authoritatively. An expression of opinion by them upon any Vote would be sufficient to deter needless discussion, and prevent an unnecessary Waste of time. He quite agreed with the hon. Member for Swansea that the Government wore, in a large measure, responsible for the backward condition of much of their Business. They introduced a whole lot of measures at the beginning of the Session; they carried them all on to certain stages, and then they stopped them. They renewed some and did not renew others. He had calculated the time lost in this way during the past Session, and he estimated that there had been fully 10 Sittings of eight hours each, or an aggregate of 80 hours, spent in debating Bills that were not persevered with. This time had been absolutely thrown away. If it had been given to the discussion of measures that were to be really pushed forward, the result would have been that at the end of the Session their labours would have been much more fruitful of useful legislation. The expenditure of this country was not only large, but was rapidly increasing. There was no necessity to get unnecessarily alarmed at this, because the expenditure of every nation in Europe was advancing also. Indeed, wherever a country was increasing in population and increasing in wealth, there would necessarily be an augmented expenditure. It was not the mere increase they had to look to, but the purpose for which the money had to be applied. It was not the amount to be voted, but the object for which it was to be spent, that ought to concern them. They would be unwise to fix a line, and then say every-
    1456
    thing below that line was economy, and everything above it was extravagance. What they were called upon to do—in this largely-increased national expenditure—was to see that the money was judiciously, economically, and wisely laid out. This the House, as it at present worked, could not do. If, however, there was a Committee appointed in the way suggested, it would certainly enable them to accomplish that end.
    Question put.
    The House divided:—Ayes 64; Noes 46: Majority 18.—(Div. List, No. 251.)
    Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

    SUPPLY—ARMY SUPPLEMENTARY ESTIMATE.
    SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
    (In the Committee.)
    (1.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a further Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,845,600, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for additional Expenditure for Army Services consequent upon the War between Russia and Turkey, and the Native outbreak in the Cape of Good Hope, &c, which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1879."
    MR. HAYTERrising, pursuant to Notice, to move that the Vote be reduced by the sum of £25,000, the charge for the erection of Huts in Cyprus, said, he had no wish, in proposing that reduction, to enter into a discussion of the larger political questions which the House had been engaged in debating during the previous week. The object he had chiefly in view was to call the attention of the Committee to the enormous increase which the Supplementary Estimate now under their consideration would cause upon the Military Estimates presented to Parliament in the ordinary manner. Even the ordinary Estimates of the Army for this year amounted to £14,965,000, whereas, for the year 1873–4—the last year that Lord Cardwell was at the War Office—the amount was only £13,231,000, thus showing an increase for this year of no less than £1,734,000. But in addition to the £14,965,000, it had been found necessary to provide a sum of £350,000

    1457
    for pay and allowances for the Indian troops, and the Committee were now called on for a further sum of £1,845,000, or a total of £17,160,000. There might be a slight deduction from that amount, because of repayments from the ordinary Estimates; but that was so small a matter as to make little or no difference in the calculation. The real fact remained, that the country must make up its mind to expend this year a sum very closely approaching to £17,000,000 for military purposes. The military expenditure in India, also, was about £17,000,000, so that the aggregate expenditure on the Armies of the two countries amounted to no less than £34,000,000. The next point to which he wished to draw the attention of the Committee was that if we were to embark on the totally new policy of taking our Indian troops for Imperial purposes out of India, we should be doing not only a very mischievous thing, as regarded the military efficiency of our soldiers, but also adopting a course which would add very largely to the taxation of the ratepayers of the country. We should be reversing the policy of former times, in accordance with which we drew upon England as the reservoir for India, and making India the reservoir from which troops were to be taken for military service whenever they might be required. That, it seemed to him, was a most dangerous change to make. It would be in the recollection of the Committee that the troops which had been recently brought from India to Malta had been selected from all the three Presidencies—Bombay, Bengal, and Madras —and they included Cavalry and Artillery as well as Infantry. The adoption, then, of that course was tantamount to saying that if another emergency happened to arise, it was intended to use the entire strength of the Indian Army for Imperial purposes in Europe, or anywhere else, where their assistance might be wanted. ["Hear, hear!"] He was not surprised that hon. Gentlemen opposite should cheer any allusion to such a policy; but if they would refer to the Report of the Select Committee of 1869, they would perceive how important were the financial considerations connected with the use which they wished to see made of those Indian troops. It was the opinion of Lord Napier of Magdala himself that the use of them out of India would mate-
    1458
    rially affect the question of the economy which their employment in India secured. If they were to fight side by side with European troops, there must be a very large increase in the cost of their food clothing, and medical attendance, not to speak of the necessity of providing for them those increased comforts in barracks which they would see enjoyed by their European comrades. Then arose the question whether the Indian troops were, in any sense, equal to the European as a military machine. Upon that point he did not wish to say much; but he must call attention to the fact that, with one unanimous consent, our military authorities had decided that no Colony could be left if it had guns to be manned, to be defended by Native troops only. More than that, it would be found that in all the great wars which had occurred in India, there had been a nucleus of Europeans to stimulate and encourage the Native soldiers. It had been so from the days of Plassey downwards; and the European troops had always been called upon to bear the brunt of the fight. At the battle of Plassey a single European regiment had laid the foundation of our military supremacy in India. At Meanee, one regiment, the 22nd, had borne the brunt of the day, and at Ferozeshah—the most desperate battle, perhaps, fought in India—50,000 fresh troops under Akbar Khan had retired without striking a blow, because their rear was threatened by English artillery. Next came the question of the relative pay of the officers and men of the two Armies, and he wished to point out to the Committee that the very lowest subalterns in one of those Native regiments was at the present moment receiving higher, or at any rate equal, pay with the senior officer of an English regiment—the officer, for instance, in command of the 42nd Highlanders. The evidence of His Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, he might add, went distinctly and strongly to show that if the officers and men of the two Services were fighting side by side, it would be absolutely necessary to consider the whole question of their relative pay, and to place the officers of both—at least, approximately—on an equality in that respect. Then came the question of using Indian troops merely for garrison duty. The result of so employing them would, in his opinion, be

    1459
    to involve the country in a great expense; for it was undoubtedly the view of the ablest witnesses who had been examined before the Committee, to which he had referred, that they could not be called upon to serve in any of our Colonies for a longer period than three years. They might, of course, be forced to do so; but it was pointed out in the Report of the Committee that such was the desire of these men to return to their homes, that if they were kept away from them for any length of time, discontent would in all probability arise in their ranks, almost amounting to mutiny, and that our prospects with respect to recruiting in India would, in consequence, be seriously injured. The expense, also caused by the camp-followers, who invariably accompanied the Native troops, must be taken into account. On that point, the statistics of the Abyssinian War threw some light. He found from the draft Report of the Chairman of the Committee on Abyssinian Expenditure, that the number of Native troops employed by Lord Napier of Magdala in the Abyssinian Expedition was 15,000, and that they had brought with them an equal number of camp-followers, besides a number of animals. Of these baggage animals, no less a number than 28,673 died, and they cost this country the sum of £1,147,000. He would not go into the enormous expenses for transport incurred during the war, which amounted to no less than £4,000,000 including the hired vessels as well as those belonging to the Government. He trusted before we were again embarked upon such a policy as that, the country might know how far it was intended to carry it. The House ought to know from the right hon. and gallant Secretary of State for War how long it was intended to keep the Indian troops in Cyprus. They knew that those troops were an enormous expense to this country; because not following the precedent of former years—and, he believed, rightly departing from it—the whole of the expenses of these troops would be borne by the Imperial Exchequer. He rejoiced that such a course had been adopted, not only because it was just to India, but because it would now be made apparent to the country what this policy cost us. With regard to the Vote, he would ask if it was likely that any permanent expenditure would
    1460
    have to be made on barracks in Cyprus. He understood that these huts were to be made of a class of iron which he was informed on good authority would corrode with the night dews of the Mediterranean, and wear out very rapidly. Then there were to be metal roofs, which would, of course, get exceedingly hot during the nine months' hot season, with the probability of seriously affecting the health of the troops. He need not point out to the Committee that already an epidemic had broken out amongst the troops, and that many men were down with fever in one of the Indian regiments. He understood that the 42nd Highlanders were to be encamped on the highest parts of the Island, because it would hardly be permitted to treat them with neglect. But these were not the only expenses Cyprus was likely to cost England. A large sum would have to be spent before the roadsteads could be turned into harbours, and this must be done if we were going to hold the Island permanently. The House also knew that a large expense would be required for drainage and water supply. He would detain the Committee no longer. He would only say that the employment of the Indian troops was by no means an economical measure, because we obtained a very inferior article for a much greater expense. He begged to move the reduction of the Vote by £25,000.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That a further Supplementary sum, not exceeding £1,820,500, he granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Charge for additional Expenditure for Army Services consequent upon the War between Russia and Turkey, and the Native outbreak in the Cape of Good Hope, &c., which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1879."—(Mr. Hayter.)
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: Mr. Raikes, I will not intervene for more than a few minutes between the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War and the Committee. I think it is somewhat remarkable that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman should not have risen in the first instance, and have given some explanation of these Supplementary Estimates. As I understand the Vote was put from the Chair, and had it not been that my hon. and gallant Friend who has just addressed the Committee rose

    1461
    to make the observations which he has made, the Vote would have been passed without any explanations whatever. Sir, I can understand that the Government may not think it necessary upon this occasion to enter into any detailed explanations, or any further explanations, as to the policy of employing Indian troops in Europe. We have already passed Estimates which more or less sanctioned that employment, and I understand the Government do not think it necessary that any further explanation, in the absence of debate, should be given by them upon that point. But these are the first Estimates in which we have had before us any part of the expenses which have been incurred in connection with the military occupation of the Island of Cyprus, and I do think upon this occasion we have a right to expect from the Government that they should place the Committee in possession, of all information which relates to it, and in reference to what has been done, and what is going to be done in Cyprus. Sir, I must admit that in the absence of explanation I am totally at a loss to know what has been the object of the military expedition which has taken place, and of troops being sent to Cyprus. I understood my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say last night that the ordinary garrison of Cyprus would be 2,000 men; but I believe 8,000 men have been sent there. What have 8,000 men been sent there for? What is there in the state of Cyprus, or in the state of our relations with any European Power in connection with Cyprus, which makes it necessary to send that large Force into Cyprus? Not only was such a course not necessary, but the country has been placed at a great disadvantage by such policy. To begin with, there is a very large expenditure for transport, and far more serious and important than that is the fact that a large number of men have been sent to an Island, as I understand, Sir, imperfectly provided with accommodation to receive them, and an Island the climate of which is not at all conducive to health. I think there is very serious reason to fear, unless we hear an explanation from the Government to the contrary upon the point, that very grave sickness may break out amongst the troops so hastily sent, and without any preparation whatever; and we have a right to expect from
    1462
    the Government some information as to the reasons which induced them to send these troops, and what preparations and precautions they have made for the preservation of health. Sir, it is said that the Indian troops were going to India, and that they would have already been sent but for the absence of transport, and for the difficulties of their being sent through the Red Sea at this time of year. If such orders have been sent out, I think the policy of the Government is still more incomprehensible. If these Indian troops are now sent from Cyprus to India, I think the question will arise, Why were they sent to Cyprus at all? It would not be, perhaps, altogether unreasonable to expect from the Government upon this occasion some explanation as to the permanent military expenditure which is likely to be involved by this occupation. Barracks, I presume, will have to be erected, military stores will have to be provided, and there will be all the other expense which is always connected with the military occupation of any possession. Perhaps, it is probable the Government will not be in a position to give us any full information upon those points. It is quite evident that the policy is one hastily adopted, and I should not be much surprised to find that neither the Admiralty nor the War Office are in a position to give any very accurate or detailed information upon the military or naval value of Cyprus, or as to the works and expenditure which will be necessary in order to make its advantages as valuable as possible. At all events, whether we are to have any explanation or not as to the permanent expenditure likely to be entailed upon the country by this occupation, I do think we have a right to know what were the reasons for this sudden and, as it appears to me, totally unnecessary expedition which has taken place, and what are the preparations and provisions which have been made against the outbreak of disease and sickness amongst those troops which have been so hastily sent.
    COLONEL STANLEY: I can assure the noble Lord that it was far from my intention to withhold any information from the Committee, or in any way to shrink from making a statement. The reason I acted as I have was this. The Motion of my hon. and gallant Friend

    1463
    (Mr. Hayter) stood upon the Paper, and I thought it a matter of courtesy to him that he should have an opportunity of at once proceeding with his Motion. I may, perhaps, be out of Order in answering the queries of my hon. and gallant Friend. He has referred to the Indian troops, and I am bound to point out that there is nothing whatever about the Indian troops in the Estimate which is before the Committee. But it is a small point, and, with the permission of the Committee, I will answer briefly the questions which my hon. and gallant Friend has asked me in respect to the Indian troops.
    MR. HAYTER: I beg my right hon. and gallant Friend's pardon, but there is a reference to the Indian troops in the Estimate.
    COLONEL STANLEY: Oh, yes; so there are a few small charges which have some connection with the Indian troops, but these escaped my notice. Now, with regard to these troops, my hon. and gallant Friend has spoken as if we contemplated using these troops habitually. I do not think from anything I have said, or anything any Member of the Government has said, it can have been taken for granted that the use of these troops would be under all circumstances habitual. The position we have taken is this. These troops were available, and as they had been used several times before, we thought, at the time we employed them, that the emergency was such as justified their employment. But I am bound to say I have carefully endeavoured to guard myself from ever implying that the use of these troops would be habitual; and, on the other hand, I have given a distinct explanation, in a contrary direction. My hon. and gallant Friend has said a good deal as to the expense of these troops; but if he chooses to take that ground, I must say I am of opinion that, as a matter of fact, these troops, taken regiment for regiment, are of no greater expense than the British troops. I will merely state facts—I do not wish to enter into an argument one way or the other; but I make out, taking one establishment with another, it will be seen that the cost of a British regiment is not less than £40,000 a-year, and my decided impression is that regiments of Indian troops would cost, even under the circumstances in which they are now employed, de-
    1464
    cidedly less. Of course, I except transport charges. There is, no doubt, inconvenience, as was mentioned by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) in bringing officers to serve side by side at different rates of pay. But that arises in this way. We thought that the Indian troops, being entitled to their own rates of pay, should bring them with them; but, at the same time, we did not see, on the other hand, why European troops serving in the Colonies should receive a higher rate of pay merely because they were brought from India. Well, Sir, I do not think I ought to follow this subject more, and I would rather pass on at once to what I have to say with regard to the circumstances of the occupation of the Island of Cyprus. Now, I find myself in some difficulty, because the information I have at present is, as it must be, of a very tentative character. But I have, probably, as good a means of information as anyone can have. But one of the great difficulties is to ascertain precisely what the circumstances of the Island are. The circumstances under which the occupation of the Island took place, I suppose, I need hardly refer to. I will point out that when it was decided that the occupation should take place, a High Commissioner was appointed in the person of Sir Garnet Wolseley. He was chosen as High Commissioner and Administrator in the name of the Queen. Sir Garnet Wolseley, having had some similar experience as it were, took out with him, in the first instance, certain selected officers, well known to him, who had been employed under similar circumstances and other places; and who, by their administrative capacity and vigour, both of body and mind, were naturally considered to be the best to assist him in the very arduous task he has undertaken. The £10,000 mentioned in the Estimate, and of which I spoke the other day to my hon. and gallant Friend, include the Staff pay of these officers. Sir Garnet Wolseley is placed on the same footing as the Governor of Malta and Gibraltar, exercising the double capacity of Civil and Military Governor. He is assisted by those officers who draw their special service pay, amounting, in most cases, to £1 a-day. We have been asked why the charge for government is not larger; and, Sir, I believe if hon. Members had examined

    1465
    the facts carefully, they would have seen the reason for it. The fact is, the charges of the government and administration of the Island will, for the greater part, be paid out of the revenues of Turkey. The High Commissioner has very wisely, as I understand, decided not to disturb, more than he can help, the existing system of administration, at all events, until he is quite certain he has got something better to put in its place. What he has done, therefore—and I am sorry I cannot place the Correspondence before the House, but it is only from private letters I have received from officers —is to send an officer into each district of the Island to report to him, to act as a sort of Resident, and therefore bring the authority of the Island in direct communication with the Lord High Commissioner. He himself has occupied a seat of government at Nicosia, and the troops are distributed in various portions of the Island, the principal portion being in camp in the neighbourhood of Larnaca. I understand that they are in perfect health, and that there is an abundant supply of water. It has been often said there is no water at all in the Island. No doubt, as in all other countries in that part of the world, a certain amount of prudence and care were required, and above all, any unnecessary exposure must be avoided. Those who are there must also take all reasonable precautions against fever and malaria. The greater part of the Island is by no means unhealthy. There have been a few slight cases of fever; but I have had letters up to a week ago, and I have had a communication by telegraph since, and I am not aware that any deaths have occurred. Certainly no epidemic has been spoken of as general; though it has been stated that the weather is very hot, and care therefore is necessary. With regard to the troops going to the Island imperfectly equipped, as the noble Lord has said, I can only say—
    THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I did not say imperfectly equipped. I said they had gone without any preparation for their reception.
    COLONEL STANLEY: I thought the noble Lord said imperfectly equipped. Well, we thought it was not expedient to make arrangements for these troops until, at all events, Sir Garnet Wolseley had had ample opportunity of inspecting the Island, to say where they should
    1466
    be distributed, and what arrangements should be made for them. The troops took their camp equipments with them, and I understand there has been no difficulty in their camping them at once in the stations which had been assigned to them. And I may here say that nothing I have seen in any paper leads me to think there is any difficulty in landing. A great deal has been said about the necessity of harbours and roadsteads, and a good many observations have been made as to the expenses which will be absolutely necessary. So far as I can understand it, there has been no difficulty in landing stores; and, although the Island does not possess a harbour, in the ordinary sense of the word, there is a considerable trade carried on there, and ships of large tonnage have good facilities for loading and unloading. Then we are asked why the Indian troops were not sent home at once, and how long they are to be kept in the Mediterranean? We are also asked why we sent them from Malta to Cyprus. With regard to the first question, as we hope, and believe, the emergency which induced us to bring them to Malta has passed, there appears to be no sufficient reason why we should keep them longer in the Mediterranean than is absolutely necessary. Accordingly, when the weather and the other conditions admit of their proceeding on their voyage, these troops will return, to India. I am not sure that a few Cavalry horses will not be left behind; but, with that exception, I think we may take it for granted that the hulk of these troops will, in the course of a month or five weeks, be upon their homeward voyage. It may be a few days, more or less, on one side or another; but I cannot say exactly. We must wait for the transports and the weather, and we must trust the work to those who have practical experience, and who know exactly what means exist for the purpose. Then we have been asked, as I said before, why these troops were sent to Cyprus? In the first place, no particular object was to be served, in the long run, by keeping them at Malta; and, secondly, as they carried their camp equipage with them, they were as well placed at Cyprus as at Malta. More than all that, I must remind the Committee of what has been taking place elsewhere—that it is impossible to say,

    1467
    looking at the change of government, despite the fact of the flag of England has been very well received by the Cypriotes, it is not absolutely certain that there may not be a disturbing element in the population, the Government thought they would be acting judiciously in sending not only a sufficient, but an overpowering Force. In coming to that conclusion, it was agreed, also, that these Indian troops should not be broken up, but kept together, under the same commanders, as they had been before. We have been asked a great deal with regard to these expenses, and why we did not propose more expenditure as absolutely necessary? I may say that these Estimates are taken for Army Services. With regard to the Civil Service, there may be, later on, several works which it will be desirable to undertake; but, inasmuch as those have been carried on before, I apprehend the expense will fall rather as charges upon the administration of the Island. Those do not come under the Army charges. I do not see that they come, in any way, under that head; and, therefore, I have not thought necessary in the Supplementary to include them. With regard to the £25,000 for huts, so far as I am aware, hut accommodation can be provided for a somewhat less sum; but, as we know, there are always some incidental charges in connection with buildings of that sort, and I thought it advisable to take an Estimate of £15,000, which will cover the whole cost. I believe these huts will afford accommodation for 3,000 men, and they will afford sufficient protection for them until we are able to say what course will be taken, and how the Forces shall be distributed throughout the Island. As far as I understand, there are existing on the Island buildings which, when properly put in order, may be very properly applied for the purposes of barracks for the troops; but, at the present time, they are not so available, and the medical authorities are not satisfied about the sanitary state of some of the buildings, and we would not put men where it was known to be unhealthy. Therefore, we think they had better have huts, where they can easily be disposed of, and. where they are still within reach of those who may require their services. With regard to the Force it may be ultimately necessary to maintain there, I would ask the
    1468
    Committee not to look upon Cyprus as they would upon Malta or Gibraltar—as a fortress—but as an Island, by no means barren in the way of natural defences. The permanent garrison of the place does not appear, as far as we can tell, to require to be of very great strength, and I should think if we left two European battalions, and, probably, a battery of Artillery there, they would prove sufficient for the internal police and ordinary administration of the Island. I have endeavoured, so far, to give the Committee a straightforward account of the information in our possession. It will be seen from it that the chief officers under Sir Garnet Wolseley are examining into all the circumstances of the district under their charge and are reporting to him. I trust very shortly to receive fuller information; but up to the present time the letters I have had only give the results of a few hours' labour, and before that full information can be given which must be obtained. So far as I understand, supplies are plentiful, and though, no doubt, some enterprizing persons have bought up, as a speculation, a good deal of house property with the idea that rents will be raised thereby, we are by no means in their power, and the provision which the Committee are now asked to make will have the advantage of enabling us to be independent—to ascertain clearly what the resources of the Island are, and how to utilize them best for the Public Service. I hope I have not taken up too much time. I have endeavoured to give the information I possess, and if occasion occurs for supplementing it, the Committee may rest assured I will take advantage of it.
    MR. T. CAVEsaid, there was one reason why he cordially supported the expenditure of £25,000 on huts. It had been, his duty for many years to superintend the construction of railways in localities similar to the Island of Cyprus, and hence he thought he might be able to give a hint or two to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War as to the management of troops there. In the first place, he might say that persons from the mainland, if they worked during the summer months, suffered great mortality, and as heavy a death rate as 60 per cent had occurred in his experience; whereas if, during the four hot summer months,

    1469
    such workmen were re-conveyed to the mainland, they were able to bear the fatigue of the other eight months with only the ordinary disease and death. The course usually adopted in such climates by natives was that when exposed to the atmosphere before sunrise, or after sunset, at the moments when the transitions took place, they covered their heads, the result being that chill and resulting fever was much less frequent than would otherwise result. Above all, care should be taken that every man should be properly housed at nights, and it was on this ground that he supported the provision of huts for the troops. Any expense which might be occasioned thereby would be repaid by securing the health of officers and men; and in making such a provision he was sure the Government would be supported by the House and the country. Whenever the men he had employed were encamped, the leaders of the party took care that the encampment should not be near marshy or uncultivated ground, where the proportions of fever cases rapidly increased. The water he always took care should be pure and, if possible, filtered. The grapes of the Mediterranean Islands were abundant, and most nutritious; but he advised the Government to reduce, as far as possible, the supply of fermented and alcoholic liquors to the troops in Cyprus.
    MR. ONSLOWsaid, the officers who had gone to Cyprus had had great experience in India, and he knew no one who would better manage his men in a hot climate than Sir Garnet Wolseley. The House would recollect that Sir Garnet Wolseley had had practical experience in the handling of troops in every conceivable climate. He had looked carefully at the names of the Medical Staff who had been sent out, and he found that those who were chiefly responsible for the health of the troops had had much experience in hot climates, and he could not conceive it possible that they would recommend Sir Garnet Wolseley to encamp his men on marshy or apparently on unhealthy ground. At the same time, he hoped, as the House was soon to be prorogued, that his right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War would give some assurance that all special Reports of Sir Garnet Wolseley should be laid before hon. Members during the Recess as soon
    1470
    as possible. He must express a hope that some law would be made for the close time for game, because he could not help thinking that it would be a very wise thing if the game of the Island was preserved. If something of the kind were not done, we should find the game in the Island would become exterminated, considering the number of sportsmen said to be on their way to our new acquisition. He might also say to the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War that he hoped the Indian troops would not be hastily withdrawn from Cyprus. Whether it was true or not that the Russians were advancing on Affghanistan, it was a serious rumour, and no troops should be removed from Cyprus until the rumour was confirmed or denied. He agreed that when everything was settled down, two battalions of Infantry and a battery of Artillery would be sufficient to maintain the peace of the Island.
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he felt much indebted to his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Hayter) for having brought the matter on. He had heard the few remarks of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War with some surprise. He had said he was sorry to detain the House; but he (Mr. W. E. Forster) should have been glad to have heard him speak for very much longer. He (Mr. W. E. Forster) really did not feel that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman gave any satisfactory answer to the question of his noble Friend (the Marquess of Hartington) as to why these troops were sent to Cyprus? The right hon. and gallant Gentleman gave three reasons for this being done. The first was that the Indian troops were going home. Well, they certainly need not have taken Cyprus on the way. The second answer was that Cyprus was on the highway to India. Well, he believed that that would cost the taxpayers a considerable sum—the Indian troops going by Cyprus rather than going directly. It would have been much better for them to have gone straight to India from Malta, and he could not see why Cyprus should have been made a halting place. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman had explained the matter by saying that the Government had sent a large and overpowering force to Cyprus to overawe the

    1471
    people if they did not receive the British rule with quietness.
    COLONEL STANLEY: I beg the right hon. Gentleman's pardon. What I said was that although the British Fleet might be received very well, there might always be in a large population some disturbing element.
    MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he would accept the explanation of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman. But the large population of which he spoke numbered from 120,000 to 140,000, and he could not for a moment conceive that for the purpose of overawing such a population it was necessary to send to the Island a force of armed and drilled men, who were in the proportion of one drilled man to every three or four able-bodied men in the whole Island. It was utterly impossible that that could be the case; and beyond that it was quite clear that the Government themselves at first did not think it necessary to send such a force, because they despatched Mr. Baring to take possession of the Island before the troops arrived. He did not think they had. had any answer whatever to his noble Friend's question as to why these troops were sent, and he supposed they hardly would get any answer. The hon. Gentleman who had just sat down (Mr. Onslow) suggested a forcible answer, but one which he could hardly imagine—that the Government had determined to garrison Cyprus because the Russian troops were going towards Afghanistan. Well, Cyprus might or might not be on the high road from Malta to Alexandria, but it certainly was not on the high road from St. Petersburgh to Afghanistan. One other remark which the hon. Gentleman made was worthy the attention of the Government, and that was whether, as we were sending our troops to the Island, and could not tell what they were to do, they might not afford relaxation for the officers by taking care of the game of Cyprus, as well as everything else there. But the annexation of the Island was a very serious matter with regard to the effect it would have upon future taxation and upon the Revenue, and yet upon it the right hon. and gallant Gentleman had given no information whatever. He had said absolutely nothing as to the objects of the Government in acquiring the Island, or as to sending the troops there, or what the Govern-
    1472
    ment intended to do with the Island, as one of our military defences, in the future. He had simply said it was not a fortress, nor a naval or military station, and that it was quite different from Gibraltar or Malta. But still the House remained absolutely in the dark, and he was quite sure the Government would not throw any further light on a measure which had excited so much attention, and which had been spoken of as a measure of almost magnificent proportions.
    SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOThoped his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Hayter) would not press his Amendment, because there was one thing which was quite plain, that as the troops had been sent to Cyprus there must be some place there in which to quarter them. He was sure there was no man who would wish that the troops should be exposed to such a climate as it was known was to be found in Cyprus at this present time of year, and they would all wish for proper precautions to be taken to see that the troops were well housed, and protected from the extreme heat of the sun. Therefore, he hoped the Amendment would not be pressed, as he was certain if it was carried the most mischievous consequences might ensue. With regard to what had fallen from his right hon. Friend the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) he (Sir Walter B. Barttelot) was bound to say that he rather felt like him—that there had been no satisfactory answer given to the noble Lord. It might be, and it most likely was, that Malta was very much overcrowded at this hot time of the year, and that the troops were to be sent back to India. But, Cyprus having been ceded, it was naturally thought, and he considered properly thought, that it would be a good opportunity to move the Indian troops from Malta to Cyprus. And even if it were done for nothing else, it would show the people of Cyprus— and that would be communicated to the inhabitants of Asia Minor—that England was determined, after having taken over Cyprus, to pursue her policy there; and, having undertaken to carry out that policy with regard to Asia Minor, he was not one of those who would shrink from the undertaking. But that which would be required in the future would need the most

    1473
    careful consideration to determine, because he defied any Government in the world, with so short an experience, to say what would be wanted. He desired to see the Government go gradually forward, and see that no greater expense was incurred than was absolutely necessary. The country having endorsed the policy of the Government, he was absolutely certain the people would not shrink from any necessary expense to enable them to carry out that policy. There was another point on which he wished to say a word or two, and that was one which had been touched upon by the hon. and gallant Member for Bath— he alluded to the difference between the pay of the Indian officers and the pay of the officers of the English Army. This was a hard case, and one which must receive the very serious consideration of the Government. He did not agree, nor did he believe for one moment, that the Government had any notion or idea of employing these troops unless under circumstances of very great emergency. But when such an emergency did arise, and they brought from India 7,000 or 8,000 Indian troops and 2,000 British troops, and took them to Malta or any other place, it was very hard that the Indian troops should receive the same amount of Indian pay, while the English troops should have the same rate of pay as if they had gone from England to Malta, and no question of emergency had occurred. The Government were bound to deal with such a matter, because it was creating great dissatisfaction, and they ought to see that officers had the same amount of pay when called upon to do the same work. Another point for the Government to consider was that in reference to officering Indian troops. At present, officers might be transferred to the Civil Service, and he insisted that they should say whether they would remain in the Civil Service at an increased pay, or serve on in the Army, and not take the increased pay of the Civil Service, and be allowed, afterwards to go back to the Military Service and receive a large pension. It was an unwise thing to allow this to be done. There was only one other point on which he should have liked to have had some information, and that was in answer to the observation of the hon. and gallant Member for Bath that it was unwise
    1474
    and mischievous that English troops should serve beside Indian troops. He could not see anything mischievous in the matter.
    MR. HAYTERdesired to correct the hon. and gallant Gentleman. What he said was not that Indian troops should not be employed with British troops, but that the opinion of competent authorities was that they should not be left in English garrisons in sole charge of the guns.
    SIR WALTER B. BARTTELOTwas very glad to hear the correction, because he could not help thinking that such an assertion would have been very unfortunate seeing the loyalty and earnestness with which these men came forward when called upon. He would only in conclusion say, although the country had been put to great extra expense with regard to many things which had been done by the Government, that expense had not been altogether thrown away. The Government had called out not only the Indian troops, but the Reserves; and he gave every credit to the noble Lord who inaugurated that movement—and he rejoiced at the way in which the Reserves had turned out in obedience to the summons of their Queen.
    MR. E. JENKINSsaid, that he had read over what had been uttered from time to time by Cabinet Ministers with reference to Cyprus. From the time that the occupation of the Island had been first mooted, there had been great difficulty in ascertaining what the motives and policy of the Government were— how they were going to administer the Island, and what the use of their administration would be? Having regard to the objects that the Government had in view, he would call special attention to what had been said in "another place" by the Prime Minister. He made a very important statement with regard to Cyprus; and yet, last night, the Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that it was only recently that the idea of occupying Cyprus entered into the mind of the Government. It was clear that this was perfectly true, and that these huts were in existence long before the Government thought of occupying Cyprus; and that, in fact, they were ordered for another expedition. Of course, he did not say that the huts were the same; but a certain number of

    1475
    huts were ordered and delivered, and if they were not in use, they ought to have been made use of for this purpose. It would be desirable to know where these huts were, and what was the expedition upon which it was proposed to employ them. They had been told that the idea of occupying Cyprus was hastily conceived. But, on the other hand, Lord Beaconsfield. said—
    "But, at the same time, I must say, on the part of the Government, that it is a great error to suppose that they decided upon the occupation of Cyprus without being in possession of adequate information."
    If the Government were in possession of adequate information, they appeared to have had less sense. Lord Beaconsfield went on say—
    "Parliament is entitled to possess that in. formation when affairs are in that state that we think these documents can be produced without injury to the Public Service."—[See ante, p. 27.]
    But the noble Lord had also said that Europe had now returned to a state of almost Millenial peace, and if that were the case, really the time had arrived when the Government, before asking the House to vote money for this purpose, should lay upon the Table of the House the documents giving the information promised by the noble Lord the Prime Minister. He would ask the Committee to consider that this money was to be voted for military purposes in the Island of Cyprus. But the Ministers had given them no idea of what their policy would be in Cyprus, or how they proposed to administer the affairs of the Island. They had only a vague notion given them of what would be done, but nothing definite. The Administrator, they were told, was to try to administer the government on the lines upon which it had been conducted by the Turks. But what law was it they were going to administer, and how and under what circumstances was it to be administered? Either the Government had no clear and definite idea of administering the Government of Cyprus, or they were concealing from the House some plan which they had in view with regard to the matter. He would ask the attention of the Committee while he briefly pointed out that the occupation of Cyprus was, at that moment, the only thing that this country had obtained in return for the
    1476
    whole of the money it had spent—all it had gained was the miserable opportunity of occupying Cyprus. The point to which he desired to call the attention of the House was the agreement that if Russia should take possession of any further territories then we should interfere. But the Treaty did not say that if Russia should transgress the spirit, but not the letter, of the Berlin Congress, England should take action; it simply stated that if Russia should take possession of any territories, this country should intervene, and that was a very different thing. So far as he could see, under this Convention, Russia was perfectly free to declare war and cross the frontiers, provided she gave an undertaking not to enter into possession of any territories she conquered. In return for the Guarantee given by this country, the administration of the Island of Cyprus had been placed in its hands. But how was it to be administered? In what manner was provision to be made for executing our engagement? They had not heard from the Government how far, and under what circumstances, the jurisdiction of this country in Cyprus extended. They had heard some very singular statements of Her Majesty's Ministers on this question. The right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, when he was asked with regard to the Anglo-Turkish Convention, said the Porte had engaged to consult this country with regard to the reforms that were to be introduced, and he went on to say that he thought that the Treaty of 1856 would have been broken if England had annexed the Island of Cyprus; but that, as it was, the actual Sovereignty of the Island was still in the Sultan. Thus, it was admitted, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, that the Treaty of 1856 would have been infringed if England had accepted the Sovereignty of the Island. But it was contended that it would not be broken, as he understood the Home Secretary to argue, under the circumstances of the case, by which England had only to administer the government. The Attorney General, when questioned by the hon. and learned Member for Oxford (Sir William Harcourt), said that the Island was to be administered by Her Majesty, who would exercise sub-jurisdiction over the lands and people of the Island. Cyprus, was not to be any part of the territory

    1477
    of the Crown, it was only to be kept and administered by Her Majesty according to the terms of the Convention. When it was asked what the occupation of Cyprus meant, hon. Members were referred to the Convention; and when they questioned the Government as to the meaning of the Convention, they were referred to the occupation; so that they were asked to vote for money for Cyprus, with regard to the policy and administration of which he did not believe that even Her Majesty's Government could form any very definite idea. The only effect of the Convention was that the Island had been occupied, and that they were now called upon to vote money for it; and the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War told them that, in the meantime, the Government would ascertain what the circumstances of the Island were, and lay them before the House. That was in the face of the statement of the Premier, deliberately made in "another place," that the occupation was not undertaken without full information, which should be presented to Parliament in due form. He was surprised that the House should submit to the Government acting in this manner, and he could not think that it was wrong that they should continue, day by day, to press the Government to give them some idea of what was in their minds when they conceived and executed their policy. In conclusion, he would ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman whether he would not give some definite idea of what the policy of Her Majesty's Government was before he pressed the House to vote money in the dark for these purposes?
    MR. RITCHIEventured to say that there were very few who would agree with the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dundee (Mr. E. Jenkins). He believed that it was the opinion of the vast majority of the country, and a large majority in that House, that the Government had, by a wise and judicious expenditure of money, saved the country from a great and disastrous war, and had restored peace to Europe. Looking at the state of anxiety in which they had remained for many months past, he could not feel otherwise than that Her Majesty's Government had acted wisely and carefully in this matter, and that if they had acted differently this country might now, instead of enjoying the
    1478
    blessings of peace, be in the midst of a desolating war. He could not agree with the hon. Member for Dundee that the Island of Cyprus was all we had got for the money we had spent; in his opinion, its acquisition was one of the smallest gains that we had obtained for our money. It had been said by the hon. Gentleman that there was the greatest difficulty in ascertaining the police of the Government with regard to the occupation of Cyprus. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) had also complained that the Secretary of State for War did not state the reason for the occupation of Cyprus, or what was the policy in keeping it. But they all knew that last night the Chancellor of the Exchequer stated plainly and distinctly what the policy of the Government was in keeping Cyprus. He told them that there were two objects; one was that we might be near at hand and have a basis of operations in case we should be called upon to carry out the provisions of the Convention we had entered into with the Turkish Government; the other was that England should have some place near the mainland where it could show to Turkey that, by just administration, it was quite possible to carry out necessary reforms in Asia. When it was said that no explanation had been given of the policy of the Government, he was bound to say that that allegation was not borne out by the facts of the case. The hon. Member for Dundee alleged that the Government had not had adequate information; or, if they had had proper information, they had not produced it. But the Government were unable to go into minute details as to all the circumstances that might arise in the administration of the Island. It appeared to him that the statement that the Government acted on adequate information was by no means irreconcilable with the fact that the Government were at present unable to go into minute details. When Lord Beaconsfield spoke of information with regard to Cyprus having been obtained, he, no doubt, spoke principally with reference to the policy of the acquisition. It was impossible that the Government could produce a cut-and-dried scheme for the administration of Cyprus; that could only be ascertained by experience. The Government were taking proper

    1479
    measures by the course which they had pursued to place themselves in the best position to get information; and he had little doubt that, after some experience, Sir Garnet Wolseley and the other officers with him would enable the Government to give hon. Gentlemen in that House all the information they desired.
    MR. RYLANDS: I do not suppose for a moment that it is the intention of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Bath (Mr. Hayter), who has made this Motion, to press it to a division; but it gives us an opportunity—to which, I think, we are entitled—to bring before the Committee, and also before the country, as well as we are able, the circumstances under which we object to this expenditure. My right hon. and gallant Friend the Secretary of State for War has said that Parliament has condoned the Government in the course they have taken— namely, in taking this new departure. Of course, it is a matter of necessity that, if we choose to adopt an Imperial policy, we must be prepared for an Imperial expense. We have in past times done a great deal to spread civilization in other lands; and, I believe, without any display, and without any bombastical expression on the part of our Rulers, we have shown in the face of the world the high influence and character of the British people. We have done all this, but we are now proceeding upon a new line which is expected to be surrounded with much glory and much prestige. We are now departing upon a line on which we are going to seek some new honour and glory, and on that line we must be content, if we choose to pursue it, to follow the example of all Imperial Governments; and we must forget, to a certain extent, the interests, and welfare, and prosperity of the people under our control, in favour of new claims for a higher character of national influence and national control. Well, Sir, we are for the moment in for this policy. I am quite aware that, when we criticize the conduct of the Government, as we are entitled to do, and ask them what they are going to do with this Island, and what is to be the next step, they tell us that it is a tentative step. Well, the whole of their policy has been tentative. I challenge the Government to tell us why they brought these Indian troops to Europe at all. The Committee
    1480
    does not know why they brought these Indian troops to Europe, and we do not know where they intended to place those troops when they had got them into Europe. I believe the first idea of the Government was a filibustering idea. ["No, no!"] But I say yes, and I say it upon the authority of a late Member of the Cabinet, and I have the greatest confidence in that Nobleman. That noble Lord said the first idea of bringing these troops to Europe was a filibustering idea of seizing upon territory in Asia Minor, or upon some Island in the Mediterranean. Will the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War tell us that the Government first intended to place these troops at Malta? I say that we have no evidence that there was any idea of placing them in any particular place. The Home Secretary told us that the Government had acted upon information which they received from a high authority with regard to bringing the Indian troops to Europe; but, when that information which the Government received from a high authority was found to be untrue, it was then, I believe, that the intention to bring these troops to Malta was formed. Now, when you got these troops to Malta, you had again to inquire—what are we to do with them? The Government did not know what to do with these troops. As for the idea of the hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Onslow), that these troops should be placed at Cyprus in order to protect Afghanistan from Russia, I am sure the Government, who think we may be expected to swallow a good deal, will not expect us to swallow that. The right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War gave us what I thought to be a very extraordinary reason for taking the Indian troops to Cyprus. He seemed to think it was possible that the population — restricted to something like 18,000 or 20,000 adult males—in Cyprus would, on some ground or other, possibly rise up against British occupation. Why, British occupation of the Isle of Cyprus is the greatest God-send that could possibly happen to the people of Cyprus. Why, the Greeks presented our Lord High Commissioner naturally enough with an Address, in which they expressed the great pleasure and satisfaction with which they viewed the British occupation of the Island, and

    1481
    then they charged an exhorbitant rent for the use of their houses. That was natural enough too. To say that the British occupation of Cyprus might possibly lead to a revolution or rebellion that would require 8,000 or 10,000troopstoputitdown is a complete romance. I must say that it appears to me that the whole transaction of these Indian troops is to cost us an enormous sum of money, and I believe the Government have acted without due consideration. I believe, in the first instance, they were led into it by false information. If that is so, when they got new information, there was no need, instead of sending them back to India, to send them to Cyprus. That, I suppose, was done to cover the operation, and it will entail upon this country great additional expense, which might have been saved if the Government had taken different measures. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Dundee (Mr. E. Jenkins) in saying that the Government have not told us what their object and policy is in regard to Cyprus. We have heard two voices in the Cabinet. One class of Ministers of the Cabinet make the maximum representation as to the policy, and the other section minimize the operation altogether. Those taking the maximum view say we have got Britain overlooking Asia Minor, and Britain is prepared to carry by this means into the countries subject to Turkey new branches of industry, new precautions for life and property, a new system of justice, and all the different arrangements which distinguish our civilization as compared with the Government of Turkey. In order to do this we must have a large Force, and spend large sums of money. But that is not what the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer contemplates. Nothing of the sort. He says, in this Island we are to set up a model Government, which will act as an example to Turkey, and we shall then have the Sultan and his advisers adopting the same means to secure the same prosperity. In fact, Cyprus was to be a large model farm. Every hon. Gentleman who has gone in for a model farm knows what that means. It means vast outlay, with little to show for it; and that will be the result of the annexation of Cyprus. The House of Commons, however, is now prepared to swallow anything. AlL the Opposition can do is
    1482
    to protest against the course taken by the Government. But one step would lead to another—one expenditure to a further expenditure; and, unless I am much mistaken, we shall find, in a few years, that this unsound policy will lay on the people of this country very serious responsibilities indeed.
    MR. MUNDELLAwould detain the Committee but a few minutes; but he wished to ask the right hon. and gallant Gentleman in charge of the Vote how he proposed to convey to their homes the troops that had been brought from India? Whatever might be the policy of Her Majesty's Government—whether he agreed or disagreed with it—he thought both sides of the House would concur in what he had to say, that those troops should be conveyed home at a reasonable cost. He was sure that no one would be more grateful to him than the Chancellor of the Exchequer for having raised the question in the House. It would be in the recollection of hon. Members that Parliament voted several thousands of pounds for payment of the transport of those troops. The mode of transport and the cost was very much criticized at the time; and the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty promised to give him a Return, showing the total charge of the transport and the chartering of the ships. It was believed at the time that the expenditure in this respect was of a most lavish, wasteful, and, he thought he might say, discreditable nature. He said this in the presence of business men, who would correct him if in error. He would not use one word in exaggeration, but he must say again that the sums charged for that particular service was discreditable and un-business-like. According to the Return which the right hon. Gentleman supplied, it appeared that 28 vessels were employed, steamers and transports, in the conveyance of those troops to Malta. The cost of the steamers ranged from £3,000 to £7,000 per month, and he wished to know whether they were still in the service of the Government? He would ask whether the country was paying a monthly—
    THE CHAIRMANpointed out to the hon. Member that in his remark he was anticipating the discussion on the Navy Supplementary Votes.
    MR. MUNDELLAunderstood that the Question before the House had refer-

    1483
    ence to the transport of the troops. He wished to know whether the Admiralty declined to make itself responsible for chartering those vessels to India? If not the Admiralty, who was responsible? Somebody should know, because he saw a note to this effect—
    "The arrangement for the transport of troops was made in India by the Indian Government after communication with the Transport Department of the Admiralty."
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERrose to Order. He did not know whether the hon. Gentlemn was quoting from the present Supplementary Estimates or the Navy Estimates?
    MR. MUNDELLAsaid, that he was not quoting from either, but from the Return which had been furnished to the House. What he wished to know was this—were the vessels which were chartered to convey the Indian troops to Malta still retained in the service of the Government, and what were the terms, as set forth in the charter-parties, and were the transports to be employed in taking the Indian troops back again?
    THE CHAIRMANruled that the hon. Member was not in Order in pursuing an inquiry of the kind, upon the Question before the House.
    MR. MUNDELLAwould defer the Question, therefore, until it arose on another Estimate.
    SIR HENRY HAVELOCKconsidered that the House and the country must feel very much indebted to the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Bath for having raised the discussion; for the result was that some fragments of information had been given as to what the Government
    proposed to do with the Island of Cyprus. He trusted the hon. and gallant Gentleman, however, would not carry his Motion to a division, however much they might be opposed to the occupation of Cyprus for the purpose for which it was alleged it had been taken. He felt convinced that none of the objects would be accomplished; still, it would be apparent to everybody that the troops should be properly housed, and therefore he hoped his hon. and gallant Friend would not press his objection to the particular item before the House. Now, amongst the objections which were taken by the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary of State for War to the statement of his hon. and gallant Friend, was one which struck
    1484
    him (Sir Henry Havelock) more particularly, and that was that he objected to its being supposed that the policy with regard to the Indian troops was an habitual policy. Now, he considered there was considerable reason for the policy to be so described. Had not the Government thought of the illimitable resources of India, of which those troops were said to be only the vanguard? It was not many days since an hon. Gentleman sitting on his side of the House had drawn their attention by telling them that the arrival of those 6,000 troops had answered the purpose for which they were brought—that they had terrified Russia, and so prevented war. That remark seemed to him (Sir Henry Havelock) to be one of the most extraordinary he had ever heard—
    THE CHAIRMANreminded the hon. and gallant Gentleman that he was not in Order when he referred to what had passed in a preceding debate.
    SIR HENRY HAVELOCKcontinued by observing he could not suppose that that was really the purpose for which the policy of the Government was initiated. Although he should be the last to depreciate the military resources of the Empire, he could not conceive that the employment of 6,000 troops in the Island of Cyprus had had any effect in the way of preventing war with Russia. All the suppositions of hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House were unsubstantial. The occupation of the Island had no basis of reality about it. What did they hear on the previous night, but that the Island was supposed to be of great value, on account of its strategical character? He had since endeavoured to ascertain what truth there was in the assertion, but had not succeeded, nor did he expect to get anything that would enlighten him on the point. It had been indicated that the Island of Cyprus was a strategical place with regard to Afghanistan; and, again, they had been told it was not a strategical place at all. This last statement he believed to carry the greatest amount of probability, if they were to judge from what they had heard from the Secretary of State for War.
    COLONEL STANLEYhad wished the House to understand that Cyprus was not to be considered as being like Gibraltar or Malta.
    SIR HENRY HAVELOCKsaid, it might not be considered as a fortress,

    1485
    but it was to be a strong place in the Mediterranean. It appeared that the Government did not propose to make it a fortress, or anything of the sort, because they had said that only two battalions and a battery were to be kept there. He would ask the House whether, under those circumstances, Cyprus could be considered as a strategical place? Would a place of great military operations be occupied in that way? It showed that the Government did not know what to do with the Island, nor were they aware for what purpose it ought to be occupied. They had, in fact, dragged the troops from India for a purpose, the precise object of which they themselves did not know. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had contradicted the statement that it was originally contemplated to make some seizure on the coast of Syria, and when he (Sir Henry Havelock) asked him to be kind enough to explain whether that was the construction which they were to put upon the policy of the Government, he was met—as the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) had been—by the most significant silence. He ventured to think that this was a matter to which the attention of the country would be directed over and over again, because it seemed impossible for hon. Members to elicit more information than they had at present obtained. The question of the future employment of the Indian troops was one to which the serious attention of the Government must be directed. He had seen a report in the papers to the effect that these Indian troops, who started from their own country under circumstances of the greatest credit, had become discontented with the monotonous life they had been called upon to live, as well as with the unhealthy nature of the service they were obliged to perform. They said they never suspected, when they were brought from their own country, they would have to do monotonous duty in a small Island in the Mediterranean. Incidentally, he must be allowed to say, before he sat down, he regretted very much that the inquiry on that important point which had been initiated by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) had, under certain circumstances, ended in nothing at all. He feared there was a tendency to shirk the question for the present, as to whether
    1486
    the Indian troops were to be profitably employed in the future in garrison or other duties in our Colonies? Then, as to the expense of their transport. If it was intended as a stategical measure, when they were brought from India, they had cost just about three times as much as double the number of troops from our own country would have cost. If there was anything in the statement that the Indian soldiers had been taken to Malta by way of a threat to Russia, why the end could have been accomplished from our resources at home, which were doubly and trebly sufficient for the purpose, at half the cost. It had been estimated at £1,000,000; but no doubt it would be at least £1,750,000. He would undertake to say that if the Government intended to make a demonstration, they could, from the Home resources, for the sum of money they had spent, have occupied Malta with at least 21 battalions of British Infantry. The experiment, however, had been tried, and he hoped that no greater strain would be put upon the willingness of the Indian troops than could be helped. There was another question which still remained unanswered. The British Government were going to occupy the Island of Cyprus, but with what force? Was the Force sent there a prelude to the raising of a large indigenous Native Force of Greeks and Turks? He thought that when the matter came to be thoroughly sifted, the people of England would find that they had been put to an enormous expense for no object whatsoever. As a threat against Russia, the movement of troops had been totally inffectual—without result. If it was intended to avail themselves of men at half the cost of British soldiers, the object had failed; and, everything considered, it was evident the Government had no real policy in the matter at all.
    MR. CHILDERSsaid, there were one or two points which the House ought to understand before they went further into details with regard to the question of Cyprus. He was sure it would be to the convenience of both sides of the House, as well as to the Government, that no misconception should arise in the matter; and, therefore, he had ventured to interpose. He wished the Government to explain to the House exactly and precisely what administrative and financial arrangements would

    1487
    be adopted in connection with the occupation of the Island, an occupation which had been admitted to be of a novel character. To what Minister would Parliament look for responsibility in connection with the civil and military government of the Island? Would the revenues of Cyprus be paid in gross into the Exchequer, and the military and civil expenses be charged on the Estimates; or would Parliament only be asked to defray any excess on those revenues? In what shape would the payment to the Porte appear in the public accounts? Would the payment to the Porte be a varying and not a fixed sum? [The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: No.] According to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was to be a fixed sum. Then, being a fixed sum, would it be charged in the Consolidated Fund, or on the revenues of the Island. All those things ought to be settled by Her Majesty's Government with the approval of Parliament at the outset, so that the accounts of the expenditure and revenue of the Island should be throughout on the same basis. Again, under what Department of the Government would the administration of Cyprus be placed? To whom were they to look as the responsible Minister?—to the Colonial Secretary, or the Secretary of State for War, or the Foreign Office, or the India Office? He hoped the House would see that until these questions were answered any debate on the detail of future arrangements would be imperfect.
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERdid not object to the questions put by the right hon. Gentleman, and he was not at all disposed to say they were not allied with the subject under discussion. He would therefore endeavour to answer them; and perhaps he might be allowed to do so by making, in the first instance, a reference to an observation which had fallen from the hon. and gallant Gentleman the Member for Sunderland (Sir Henry Havelock). When he spoke of their policy, he said that, as far as he could make out, it was an unsubstantial policy, because it did not appear to have many sides. Now, he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) considered otherwise. The fact of its having too many sides would not give it an air of reality, for, according as it was approached from one point to another, it would present itself differently to the
    1488
    observer. Now, in regard to the charge that, when he was asked a question, he had maintained a significant silence, he wished it clearly to be understood that the history of the movement, which had ended for the moment in the Indian troops going to Cyprus, was simply this. As the House was aware, there was a state of affairs at the time which rendered it probable that some military operations might have to be undertaken by the British Government in the Levant or the Bosphorus. On that account, the Vote of Credit was taken. The Reserves were called out, and various other steps were taken, in order that the Government might be ready for that which might be necessary; and, undoubtedly, when the Indian troops were brought from India, it was with the idea that their employment might be necessary with reference to some operations of war, though it was not stated for what particular purpose they might be required. They were, accordingly, taken to Malta; but the Government found, as they had, indeed, been conscious for some time, that that station was inconvenient for so large a number of troops, and that another movement would be necessary. Subsequently they came to the conclusion that it would be the proper course on the part of Her Majesty's Government to join in a defensive alliance with Turkey with reference to her Asiatic territories, and they thought it important, in order to enable them to fulfil that obligation, that they should have some place, where, in case of necessity, troops could be accommodated other than in the contracted area of Malta. Cyprus was accordingly selected as a proper and convenient station for the purpose. It had been alleged that Cyprus was not a strategic point. He did not know what that necessarily meant—whether it applied to a fortress only, or to a convenient place to contain a body of troops at any time when a large number of troops might be required. The possibility of having a large number of troops there when they were required was a different thing from maintaining there the small Force which was necessary for general purposes in the Island of Cyprus. It was not intended to keep a large Force in the Island. It might, perhaps, be asked— "Why, then, have you taken the Indian troops there?" The answer to that ques-

    1489
    tion must have suggested itself in the course of these discussions. The troops were no longer wanted in Malta, owing to the happy conclusion of the difficulties which had led to their being brought there. The natural course would have been to send them back to India; but it was not convenient to send them back at this season of the year. They must necessarily suffer very much if they were sent back at once, and it was desirable that they should remain in the Mediterranean for some weeks longer. Then there arose the simple question whether they should stay in Malta or go to Cyprus. There were many considerations which made it desirable that they should go to Cyprus. In the first place, Malta was contracted in its area. Then it was an advantage that, on our first presenting ourselves in Cyprus, we should do so with that amount of Force which would show that we were there with a certain power, and that we should obviate the risk of anything like that which had happened in another part of the Dominions of the Porte, to which he did not wish further to refer, as the circumstances there were very different from ours. We had no occasion for anything in the nature of a great display of force; but there was, he thought, some advantage in making, in the first instance, some acquaintance with the country, and in rendering it possible for the authorities there to send detachments of troops to different parts of the Island, in order to ascertain its capabilities and its wants, with a view to future administration. He would now offer an explanation on some points raised by his right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract (Mr. Childers). The Committee would understand perfectly well that in this matter there was necessarily a good deal which must remain open, for two different kinds of reasons. One reason was that for our own sake it was necessary that we should make adequate inquiries. Although for some little time past we had been considering the capabilities of Cyprus, and although we and been collecting a good deal of information which was valuable, still it was necessary that we should send out responsible officers of our own to conduct inquiries, and to report on the position of affairs. Another reason, which seemed not to have occurred to the Committee, was that we occupied this
    1490
    Island in a very peculiar manner, and under very peculiar conditions. We did not take the Island as British territory, but we occupied it under a Convention with the Porte, which Convention stipulated that the Sovereignty of the Porte should remain. That being the case, it was impossible for us to deal with the Island off-hand, as we might do with an island which we had conquered, or which had been absolutely ceded to us. It was necessary, in whatever arrangements were made, that we should have regard to the views and the feelings of the Porte, and that what was done should be done with due consideration and by arrangements which must be made with the Turkish Government. This, of course, involved also some further considerations. The Government had been asked what was the precise law which they were going to administer in Cyprus, and what would be the precise state of things there? Of course, these were questions of the very highest importance. They were questions which the Government were far from neglecting, but which could not be resolved off-hand without communications that were now going on and that must necessarily take some time. For instance, with regard to the practical point as to the revenue, it was the case that the revenues of the Island would be in the hands of the British Government, subject to the payment to the Porte of a certain sum which was to be ascertained, and which would be a fixed sum. That sum was to be ascertained by taking the average of the excess of revenue over expenditure in the Island during the last five years. The custom had been that the expenses of government were all paid first out of the revenue, and the balance was remitted to the Porte. We had approximately arrived at this sum, and when it was definitively ascertained, an arrangement would be made under which it would be remitted to the Porte. His right hon. Friend the Member for Pontefract desired to know whether the revenues would be brought into the Imperial Exchequer, as the expenses with regard to Cyprus were going to be voted by Parliament? That was a matter which would require some consideration. He doubted, however, whether the most convenient course would be to bring these revenues into the Exchequer. The best course, he thought, would be to

    1491
    organize in Cyprus a proper system by which the revenues would be applied there to defraying local expenses; but if there were any expenses so distinctly of an English character that they ought to be borne by the English Government, such expenses would, of course, have to be voted by Parliament. But the expenses properly belonging to the administration of the Island ought to come out of the revenues of the Island. Perhaps it might be asked, what would be done supposing the revenues were insufficient for the purpose? Well, in such a contingency, we should be in the same position in reference to Cyprus as we occupied in regard to a British Colony which was similarly circumstanced. This was a matter connected with the whole question of administration, which we must consider carefully and deliberately. Then he was asked to state under what Department of State the Island was to be placed. This, again, was a point which required very careful consideration. In the first instance, when the troops were sent to the Island, it was under the War Office; because, in fact, the movement was of a military character. Sir Garnet Wolseley was, of course, nominated by the whole Government; but he was sent out by an instrument issued by the Secretary of State for War. It was not intended, however, that the Island should remain under the administration of the War Office. It could not be under the administration of the Colonial Office, for that would seem to imply that Cyprus was a British Possession, whereas it was not a British Possession. At the present moment the Island was under the administration of the Foreign Office—that was to say, the Foreign Secretary was the Minister of State to whom communications were to be addressed, and through whom they would pass. The Foreign Secretary was, however, in communication on this subject with the India Office, in respect to personal questions relating to the selection of officers, and so forth, and also with the Treasury. It was considered important that in all the proceedings which might take place, the Treasury should be consulted, so that that Department might have a voice in the settlement of any scheme in which they would ultimately, no doubt, have a great deal of interest. At the present moment there was comparatively little to do ex-
    1492
    cept to wait for the Reports which were expected from Sir Garnet Wolseley as to the various measures to be taken with reference to the future administration of the country, and the arrangements to be made with regard to the revenue. He hoped the Committee would see that in saying this he was saying all it was in his power to say. There was no wish for concealment on the part of the Government; but the circumstances were of such a character that it was only possible for him now to give this kind of adumbration of the scheme which would be proposed.
    MR. CHILDERSsaid, he was unable to agree with the concluding words of the right hon. Gentleman, that it was only possible at present to give what he called an adumbration of the scheme for administering the affairs of the Island. Some one Minister must have this responsibility, and there had been ample time to settle who this should be. The Treasury would have, of course, the same powers of finance that it had in every Public Department; but were they to understand that it was contemplated to put the Island under the Foreign Office, in the same sense that Crown Colonies were under the Colonial Office? The Foreign Office was wholly unused to administering the affairs of any country. He hoped the Government would pause before coming to the conclusion that the administration of Cyprus should be handed over to the Foreign Office. He ventured also strongly to protest against any plan which would remove from the control of Parliament the expenditure which might be incurred with respect to the Island. Cyprus was not a Colony, but we were renting it for certain Imperial purposes; and its cost was part of the general Imperial Expenditure.
    MR. J. G. HUBBARDheld that, as Cyprus was not to become a portion of the British Dominions, it would be highly inconvenient to bring the accounts of the Island into the general accounts of this country. For his own part, the more he considered the Convention, the more he was inclined to question it on financial grounds. He understood from the Chancellor of the Exchequer that we were about to enter into partnership with the Sultan as regarded Cyprus. Nothing could be more incongruous than for a country like this to enter into

    1493
    a partnership with a despotic and insolvent country like Turkey. The revenue of the Island had been estimated at 22,000 purses, or nearly £100,000 net. Such a revenue could not be raised from 100,000 people without the greatest hardship. He found that should the occasion arise of our having to obtain from the Island, which was not very likely, as it depended upon Russia surrendering the fortresses she had obtained in Asia Minor, that we were not to obtain any compensation for the public works and other works of improvement which we might have carried out there. In his opinion, it would be much better to buy the Island out and out from the Porte, and he would suggest that the arrears which Turkey owed to British capitalists on the Guaranteed Loan might be set off as the price of the purchase.
    COLONEL STANLEYearnestly appealed to the Committee to pass the Vote, as it was of great importance.
    MR. LOWEsaid, he had had some considerable experience with the Colonies, and with government by the Colonial Office, and he felt there was no possible Department that could govern Cyprus with satisfaction except the Colonial Office. Besides, there were so many more men in that Office than were required for the work that this extra labour could be undertaken by that Department without adding to the expenditure of the country.
    MR. HAYTERexpressed his satisfaction with the tone of the debate which had taken place, and begged leave to withdraw his Motion.
    MAJOR NOLANasked the right hon. and gallant Gentleman to give the amount of travelling expenses allowed from the point at which they set out?
    COLONEL STANLEYinvited the hon. and gallant Gentleman to confer with him on the subject.
    Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
    Original Question put, and agreed to.

    CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.

      CLASS I.—PUBLIC WORKS AND BUILDINGS.
      (2.) £5,520, Supplementary sum for Royal Palaces.
      SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, it was proposed to vote the sum of £500 as part of the amount of £5,000 for
      1494
      the external restoration of St. George's Chapel, Windsor. A good deal of restoration was required in the interior of the building, but externally the gurgoyles and bosses had been decaying, from the effects of the weather, for a long time past. Decay affected those ornaments before it attacked the structure itself. Everyone who was acquainted with King's College, Cambridge, knew how the decorative work had been ruined by the application of improper material. At Windsor, money had been expended in continuing the work of restoration all round, in a manner similar to that which had been carried out with regard to the gurgoyles and bosses. By voting the sum of £500, he believed the Committee would be sanctioning the continuation of work that must end in destroying the architectural beauties of the edifice.
      THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he had recently seen the Chapel at Windsor, and it appeared to him to be necessary for its preservation that the work which was in hand should be continued. The Committee would agree with him when he said that the decay which was going on ought to be arrested as speedily as possible. The work was of a character that must take some time to accomplish, and he thought the Committee would be acting wisely in passing the Vote.
      Vote agreed to.
      (3.) £10,000, Science and Art Museum, Dublin.

      CLASS II.—SALARIES AND EXPENSES OF PUBLIC DEPARTMENTS.
      (4.) £30,000, Supplementary sum for The Mint, including Coinage.
      CLASS III.—LAW AND JUSTICE.
      (5.) £210, Supplementary sum for Revising Barristers, England.
      CLASS IV.—EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART.
      (6.) £5,000, Supplementary sum for National Gallery.

      CLASS V.—COLONIAL, CONSULAR, AND OTHER FOREIGN SERVICES.
      (7.) £10,800, Supplementary sum for Diplomatic Services.
      MR. RYLANDSsupposed that Mr. Rivers Wilson still held the position as

      1495
      Controller of the National Debt. The Committee was asked to vote £1,500 as his salary in that important and responsible position. Mr. Wilson had been appointed also as a British Director of the Suez Canal, and for that duty he received £300 per annum. He had also been sent out on a mission to arrange the finances of Egypt, and for that he (Mr. Rylands) did not know whether he received any salary or not. He took it for granted, however, that in some way or other Mr. Wilson was adequately remunerated for his services in that particular. Now, the sending of Mr. Wilson abroad seemed to him to be a course that was unwarrantable, and not to be justified by the result. He occupied an important position at home, and it was necessary that he should be there to attend to his duties. Either the office was an unnecessary one, or Mr. Wilson's services could not be dispensed with. He knew very well that many gentlemen in the Government Departments did the work of the heads of the Departments very well during their absence, and it might be so with regard to Mr. Rivers Wilson; but still that was not a proper course to be followed. If it was so, it raised the presumption that the staff of his Department was too large, and that was the impression he had formed in his mind. Mr. Wilson occupied a high position in the permanent Public Service of the country, and he had also the distinction of being a British Director of the Suez Canal; indeed, he was one of those fortunate individuals who, whatever Party was in power, always obtained cordial support. He (Mr. Rylands) would be glad to hear from the Government, under what circumstances they considered it right and justifiable for this public officer of the Crown to be away in Egypt; how long he was likely to remain there; and what advantage they expected to result from his performance of duties abroad? Unless there was some very strong reason to the contrary, he hoped the Government would consider the propriety of calling upon Mr. Rivers Wilson to make the selection either of serving the Crown in this country as Controller of the National Debt Office, or to accept service under the Khedive, for which, no doubt, he was extremely well qualified.
      THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the employment of
      1496
      Mr. Rivers Wilson in Egypt was one of a temporary character, and he hoped to be clear away by the month of October. He had on more than one occasion explained to the House the ground on which it was thought necessary by the Government to appoint a gentleman to take part in the mission of inquiry now going on into the finances of Egypt. No doubt, Mr. Rivers Wilson held very important offices at home, and which he discharged with great ability. The routine duties, however, could be performed without his actually being present, and Mr. Repington, his deputy, was a gentleman who did that portion of his work exceedingly well. Mr. Rivers Wilson's superintendence and advice was always of the highest value. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should be glad at any future time to discuss the question with the hon. Member; but he hoped the House would at once consent to the Motion.
      MR. WHITWELLwould not object to the Motion; but he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be able to say whether Mr. Rivers Wilson would be able to present a Report to the House on the work he had been doing. Was he a mere adviser?
      THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that Mr. Wilson was not merely an adviser of the Khedive, but he was a British Commissioner, one of a body who were charged with conducting an inquiry by a Commission of different nations into the financial condition of Egypt. Of course, Mr. Wilson's Report would be made public.
      Vote agreed to.
      (8.) £8,000, Cyprus.
      (9.) £6,000, Supplementary sum for Post Office Packet Service.
      (10.) £19,865, Abyssinian Expedition.
      Resolutions to be reported To-morrow;
      Committee to sit again To-morrow.

    SUPPLY.—REPORT.
    Resolutions [6th August] reported.
    First Eighteen Resolutions agreed to.
    Nineteenth Resolution postponed.
    Subsequent Resolutions agreed to.
    Postponed Resolution to be considered To-morrow.

    EXPIRING LAWS CONTINUANCE BILL.
    MOTION FOR LEAVE.
    Motion made, and Question proposed,
    "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to continue various Expiring Laws."—(Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson.)
    Debate adjourned till To-morrow.

  WAYS AND MEANS.

    EXCHEQUER BILLS AND BONDS (NO. 2) BILL.
    Resolutions [August 6] reported, and agreed to: —Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. RAIKES, Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, and Sir HENRY SELWIN-IBBETSON.
    Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 295.]

    NAVY AND ARMY EXPENDITURE, 1876–7.
    Resolved, That this House will, To-morrow resolve itself into a Committee to consider the Savings and Deficiencies upon the Grants for Navy and Army Services in the year ending on the 31st day of March 1877, and the temporary sanction obtained from the Treasury by the Navy and Army Departments to Expenditure not provided for in the Grants for that year.
    Ordered, That the Appropriation Accounts for the Navy and Army Departments which were presented upon the 18th day of February and the 12th day of March last, be referred to the Committee.—(Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson.)
    House adjourned at one minute before Six o'clock.