Sitting of 17 July 1877

MINUTES.
—SELECT COMMITTEE —Report —Metropolitan Fire Brigade. [No. 342.]
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.—CLASSES IV., V., VI., VII.—REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Artizans and Labourers Dwellings)* [255].
Select Committee—Report—County Offices and Courts (Ireland).* [No. 341].
Committee —Report—Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (Abingdon, &c.)* [235]; Metropolis Improvement Provisional Orders Confirmation (Great Wild Street, &c.)* [237]; Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Belper Union, &c.)* [236].
Considered as amended—Telegraphs (Money)* [227].
Third Reading —Elementary Education Provisional Orders Confirmation (Felmingham, &c.)* [223], and passed.
The House met at Two of the clock.

QUESTIONS.

  THE STRAITS SETTLEMENTS —THE MALAY PENINSULA—EXPENSES OF THE CAMPAIGN.—QUESTION.
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKEasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether Her Majesty's Government have decided what share of the expenses of recent military operations in the Malay Peninsula is to be borne by the Imperial Government; and, whether it is the intention of the Government to ask for a Vote during the present Session?
  MR. J. LOWTHER: No decision has yet been arrived at upon this question. The cause of the delay has been the necessity of communications, not only between the Colonial Office and the War Office, but also with the Governments of India and the Straits Settlements, ex-
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  penditure having been incurred by all these Departments. I trust that the matter will shortly be arranged; but it is not the intention of the Government to propose a Vote for this purpose during the present Session, as I fear the arrangements cannot be concluded in time.

  NAVY—KEYHAM FACTORY—CASE OF EDWARD OWENS.—QUESTION.
  MR. PULESTONasked the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether his attention has been called to the evidence given at an inquest held on the body of Edward Owens, founder in Keyham Factory, Devonport, whose death resulted from inhaling noxious gases; and, whether the statement of Mr. Ellis, the foreman, that "the foundry ought to be better ventilated," and that "there was no ventilation in the iron and brass shop at all like there was in any other part of the department," would be inquired into, and the recommendation of the jury, that the Admiralty should provide better ventilation, acted upon?
  MR. A. P. EGERTON, in reply, said, his attention had been called to the case alluded to by his hon. Friend. There was no doubt that the ventilation in the factory was defective, and the attention of the Director of Works had already been directed to the matter. The immediate cause of the death of this man appeared to be the impure atmosphere of the drying store, which, of course, could not be ventilated like other parts of the factory, and into which he went to lie down instead of proceeding into the open air.

  RUSSIA AND TURKEY—THE WAR—NEUTRAL VESSELS IN THE BLACK SEA.—QUESTIONS.
  MR. GOURLETasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If he will ascertain from the Turkish Government whether or not they will permit neutral vessels with merchandise other than contraband to pass in and out of the Black Sea without being detained in their passage through the Bosphorus; and, if he can inform the House how far the Turkish authorities possess the right of detaining and overhauling at Constantinople neutral vessels carrying non-contraband goods, should they attempt

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  to trade between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean?
  MR. BOURKE: In reply to the hon. Member for Sunderland I have to state that I am sure he is aware—as no doubt the House and the public are aware —that a decree relating to neutral commerce passing through the Bosphorus was published on the 1st May, and was published in The London Gazette of the 15th May, relating to the whole of the subject to which the Question of the hon. Member refers. By that notice it appears that the right of search would be exercised by the Turkish Government in regard to vessels going to Ottoman ports or to neutral ports. Subsequent to that there was a decree notifying the blockade of Russian ports, and at the same time it was also mentioned that the right of search with regard to vessels going to Turkish ports and to neutral ports would only be exercised in the case of suspected vessels. Therefore, it would be useless for Her Majesty's Government to do what is suggested, in the Question of the hon. Member—that is, to endeavour to exempt suspected vessels from search; because, of course, if a vessel is suspected by the Turkish Government it is not likely that they will exempt it from search. With regard to vessels going to a blockaded port, it is not likely that vessels going through Turkish waters would declare that they were going to a blockaded port; and, if they were to do so, it would not be rational to ask the Turkish Government to exempt them from search. There can be no doubt the Turkish Government has the right to search all neutrals, even although not carrying contraband, should they attempt to trade between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean.
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKEasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, What steps Her Majesty's Government intend to take to ascertain whether the Turkish blockade of the Russian coasts is or is not "effective?"
  MR. BOURKE: When doubts were thrown upon the efficiency of the Turkish blockade, representations were made immediately by Her Majesty's Government, through their Ambassador at Constantinople, to the Porte. The Ambassador at Constantinople reported that the Porte considered that the blockade was completely efficacious; and that was confirmed afterwards by a Report
  1390
  which our Ambassador received from Hobart Pasha. Subsequently, as was mentioned in this House, I think by the hon. Baronet, vessels were heard of as going between Odessa and Nicolaieff —and other representations were then made to Her Majesty's Government to the same effect. A few days ago Lord Derby received a deputation of gentlemen interested in this question, and he promised that after hearing from them he would refer what they said to Constantinople. Lord Derby has now heard from them, their representations have been referred to Her Majesty's Ambassador at Constantinople, and Mr. Layard has been instructed to make further communications to the Porte on the subject.

RUSSIA AND TURKEY—THE WAR—WAR INTELLIGENCE—THE AMEER OF KASHGAR.—QUESTION.
SIR CHARLES W. DILKEasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether any telegrams had been received from the Consul at Adrianople respecting the advance of the Russian Army across the Balkans; and also whether there was any truth in the rumour of the death of the Ameer of Kashgar?
MR. BOURKE: We have not yet received any definite information of the death of the Ameer of Kashgar; we know nothing more than what appears in the newspapers. With regard to the other Question of the hon. Baronet, I must answer it with some reserve, as I have had no notice of it whatever, and, of course, in answering a Question of this importance, it is desirable to be cautious as to what is said. We have had information from the Consul at Adrianople, but it is only information which has been received from other sources, and is not, therefore, of much more value than the statements which have appeared in the newspapers; but it seems to be a fact that the Russian advanced guard has crossed the Balkans, and has appeared in the neighbourhood of places which are mentioned in the various telegrams-—Yeni Saghar and Jamboli. We have heard from Constantinople that the force is not of that large amount which appears in the newspapers. I do not think it would be prudent for me to state more upon the subject.

PERU—THE PERUVIAN LOANS OF 1870–1872.—QUESTION.
MR. BOURKEsaid, he did not know whether he was in Order in answering a Question which was on the Paper, but which had not been put; but it was desirable that a Question of its importance should not remain unanswered.
MR. RYLANDS (for Mr. T. Cave)then put the Question, Whether the Government is aware that there is now at Lima a representative of the Peruvian bondholders who was sent out last January by a committee acting under the advice of Mr. James Croyle, representing a large section of the bondholders who disapprove of the alienation of the guano solemnly hypothecated to them by the Peruvian Government as security both for payment of interest and amortisation of the loans of 1870 and 1872 respectively; whether any communication has been made by the Foreign Office to Mr. Graham, Her Majesty's Consul at Lima, with regard to the suspension of the payment of interest on the Peruvian Loans 1870 and 1872, amounting nominally to £11,920,000 6 per Cent. Loan 1870, and £21,546,740 5 per Cent. Loan 1872, the interest of which, has been unpaid for two years; and, whether the Government will lay upon the Table Copy of the Correspondence which has taken place between Her Majesty's Government and Her Majesty's Consul in Peru since the commencement of the present year?
MR. BOURKE: I think a Question of this kind ought not to remain on the Paper without being answered. I will first state exactly what Her Majesty's Government has done. In February last a gentleman came to the Foreign Office, and said he represented a large number of Peruvian bondholders, and wished to have a letter sent to Mr. Graham, Her Majesty's Minister at Peru, in favour of Mr. Clark, who was to be the agent of the committee, acting under the advice of Mr. James Croyle. The Government did what they always do under such circumstances. They sent a letter to Mr. Consul Graham at Peru, instructing him to give the gentleman all proper facilities, at the same time taking good care to warn him not to do anything more—that he was not to assist any agent in his endeavours to obtain assist-
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ance for his plans from the Peruvian Government, or in any way to do anything that would commit himself. That is what Her Majesty's Government has done, and the reason why I am anxious to answer the Question is, that I wish to state that a great deal has not been done that is stated in the Question. We do not know what section of the bondholders the gentleman sent out represents, or whether it is a large or a small one, or of what they disapprove. We know nothing about Mr. Croyle or Mr. Clark. No communication has been made to Mr. Graham, or by him to the Peruvian Government, on the suspension of the payment of the interest on the loans; and with regard to the Correspondence that has taken place, there is no objection whatever to lay on the Table of the House all the Correspondence that has taken place between Her Majesty's Government and Mr. Graham connected with the question.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.

  SUPPLY—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
  SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)

  CLASS IV.—EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART.
  (1.) £5,176, to complete the sum for the National Gallery, agreed to.
  (2.) £1,400, to complete the sum for the National Portrait Gallery, agreed to.
  (3.) £9,250, to complete the sum for Learned Societies and Scientific Investigation.
  MR. LYON PLAYFAIRasked, whether Her Majesty's Government would not consider the propriety of giving a grant in aid of the Scottish Meteorological Society? He said, he should be glad if the Chancellor of the Exchequer would explain the position of the negotiations with regard to that Society. The previous Government had indicated that it was desirable that substantial aid should be given to that Society, and since then two Commissions had inquired into the subject, and recommended that a certain amount of aid should be granted. Since then the Government had appointed a Meteorological Council of the Royal Society to superintend

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  the division of the increased Vote of £10,000 for meteorological purposes. As the purposes for which that sum would be expended were almost exclusively for the promotion of science by the production of weather forecasts, if the grant were to be confined entirely to those purposes, the Scottish Society would only receive assistance of the most insignificant character. The inquiries to which the Society had hitherto given attention were of national importance, including such subjects as the effects of the temperature of the sea on the migration of herrings, and the effects of the changes of climate with regard to the mortality of the population. It was a peculiar circumstance with respect to Scotland that the mortality was rather on the increase in that country, while in other parts of the Kingdom it was diminishing. Very important results had been obtained and might be looked for in the future from the inquiries instituted by the Society with regard to the mortality of Scotland, but the Society had not the power of making these inquiries as they desired to do; and, therefore, if the Council of the Royal Society were to be the supreme judges of what ought to be considered matters of national importance, and of what should be the character of the inquiries to be made in Scotland, the Scottish Meteorological Society would be in just as bad a position in future as it had been in the past, notwithstanding the large increase that had been made in the Vote. What he wished to ascertain from the Chancellor of the Exchequer was, whether he would authorize the Council of the Royal Society to apportion certain grants for important national purposes connected with meteorology, and not merely for making observations for weather forecasts and other similar purposes, such as had hitherto been recognized in the apportionment of the grant. He was afraid that unless this were done all the labour and all the representations that had been made by the Society to the Government would have been futile, and the Society would be just as crippled in carrying on inquiries that were of national importance as it had been before. He should like it, therefore, to be understood whether the Treasury intended to give power to the Council of the Royal Society to grant a portion of the Vote for such specific
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  national purposes as those which he had hinted at as engaging the attention of the Scottish Meteorological Society.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that this was a question that naturally excited a great deal of attention, both in the minds of gentlemen connected with Scotland and of those who were interested in scientific investigations. He was not at all disposed to undervalue the services rendered by the Meteorological Society of Scotland; but the Government had to bear in mind that the assistance which Parliament did or could give to scientific investigations must necessarily be limited, and that it was not every good or desirable object for which it would be their duty to propose a Vote to Parliament. He was quite aware that those at the Treasury had continually to show themselves hardhearted, and perhaps they would be thought blind to the interests of science, as they were under the necessity of turning a deaf ear to applications, in themselves worthy of attention, but which if they admitted, they would be obliged to go further than would be justifiable in the way of asking aid from Parliament. It was desirable that the Committee should understand precisely what the nature of the grant was. It had formerly been the habit of the Government, through the Board of Trade, through Her Majesty's ships abroad, and in other ways, to collect meteorological observations, which were considered of value in determining great problems of meteorology. During the time of the late Admiral Fitzroy these observations were carried on partly by the Board of Trade and partly by the Admiralty; but after Admiral Fitzroy's death, it being a considered a questionable proceeding that such inquiries should be conducted by a Government Department, communication took place upon the subject with the Royal Society, and they appointed a council of their members to advise Her Majesty's Government as to the inquiries to be carried on, and to take charge of the administration of such sums as might be provided for the purpose. A special sum of £10,000 was for some years placed at their disposal. An inquiry at length took place as to whether the system could not be improved or modified, and communications were opened with the Scottish Meteoro-

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  logical Society—a private society that was doing good and useful work—and representations were made that encouragement should be given to that Society by the Government. The Government had every desire to recognize the importance and the work of that Society. A Departmental Committee was appointed, with Sir William Stirling-Maxwell as Chairman, who presented a Report, in consequence of which some changes were made in the Meteorological Committee of the Royal Society. It was replaced by a Meteorological Council, not necessarily consisting of Members of the Royal Society, but of gentlemen designated by the Royal Society with the addition ex officio of the Hydrographer to the Admiralty. The Scottish Society was found to have done a good deal of work which was of use to the Government in the prosecution of their inquiries. They had received no remuneration for that work, and £1,000 was recommended and awarded to them, in respect of the past; and as to the future, it would be for the Council to consider how far they could avail themselves of the service of the Scottish Meteorological Society in the conduct of their business, and on what terms that assistance should be rendered. The English Meteorological Society stood on precisely the same footing as the Scotch Society. Then came the question whether there should be a direct grant in aid of the Meteorological Council as a scientific body. They all desired to recognize the claims of scientific bodies to assistance from the national funds; but it was very difficult to draw a line and say where that assistance should begin and where it should end. It was one of the most perplexing questions with which successive Governments had to deal—how national aid could best be given for the promotion of scientific research. All the Treasury could do was fairly to consider the applications brought before them; and looking to the very large amount contributed by the Government to the promotion of science, they could not undertake to extend that assistance in the way desired by the representatives of the Scottish Meteorological Society. There was an impression among some that the Government were indifferent to the interests of Scotland, but that certainly was not the case. The fact was, they were
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  unable to enlarge indefinitely the assistance given to scientific societies. He therefore hoped the Committee would agree to this Vote of £10,000 to the Meteorological Council as now constituted, and would not press them either to weaken the hands of the Council or to add to the sum now proposed to be granted.
  MR. M'LARENtook leave to think that the answer of the Chancellor of the Exchequer was extremely unsatisfactory. There was no denying that there was a tendency in every possible way to keep down grants to Scotland as compared with England. Nothing could be more unfair. An official Return showed the amount of revenue raised in both countries, and if the rule of division were applied it would be found that Scotland paid 9d. per head more than England on all the taxation of the country, and paid three-fourths per head more than Ireland, and yet England and Ireland got large grants, while Scotland got no compensating grants. A sum of £2,000 a-year from the Queen's bounty was cancelled, not by the present, but by the late Government. If Scotland paid more than England and Ireland of taxation in proportion to her population, why should every proposal to give a grant for scientific purposes in Scotland be put down in that way? No doubt, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, they might appeal to the Council of the Royal Society in London; but the right hon. Gentleman very well knew that the Society would not give a shilling of its money to Scotland, as it had not enough for its own purposes. The Scotch Society had about 100 free stations, all working well, to which Scotchmen subscribed £400 or £500 a-year, and if all the parties who worked were paid, the outlay would amount to several thousands a-year. All that labour conduced to the general welfare of the country; for the investigations made were published from time to time, and the Commissioners of Fisheries had been very much indebted to the labours of the Society in Scotland. Now it was very hard that while Scotland contributed its share in every possible way, grants and allowances were screwed down or refused. For example, there was a national museum agreed to be erected in Edinburgh some

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  years ago. Grants for it were received in small instalments for several years, until the present Government came into office. The present Government had promised and promised that it should be completed, but they had stopped the works, and allowed it to stand still. In the same spirit the grants for scientific appliances were, out of all proportion, small for the numbers who visited the museum. He moved for a Return the other day which would throw a good deal of light on the subject of the condition of the Royal Observatory. That institution, although belonging to the Crown, had been very sadly neglected, while large sums were given for similar objects in the sister Kingdoms. He thought that it was generally inexpedient to vote large sums for scientific purposes, unless it were shown that such sums were fairly distributed, and that Scotland, in proportion to its population and taxation, received as many grants as England or Ireland. He thought it was very objectionable to vote this grant without making an equivalent grant to the Scotch Meteorological Society. Every man connected with that Society was a free worker except the Secretary, who was very much under paid. The Society met in Government apartments, but for which a charge was made for rent. The only grant made to Scotland for scientific purposes was £300 a-year, and the Government charge was nearly as much for the apartments used by the Society which received this grant.
  MR. RYLANDSbelieved there was a great waste in many Public Departments; but he confessed he was not able to charge either the present, or the preceding Government with extravagant expediture in the promotion of scientific research. One important question in the consideration of applications from learned societies for assistance in the pursuit of scientific objects was, whether the end to be attained would benefit the nation? Whenever such cases came before the Government he hoped they would be responded to in the spirit of generosity.
  MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, he was gratified to find that, for once, they were in accord with the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands). The hon. Gentleman would shortly have an opportunity of supporting a Supplemental Vote
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  which it was intended to propose for the very object of which he had approved. In their Report the Committee to which reference had been made recommended the further development of inquiries conducted by the Meteorological Council, involving an expenditure of £4,000 a-year, which in the judgment of the Treasury would be a most desirable outlay. The Government had, therefore, full confidence that the House would support the demand which they would make at a later stage. As to the tests that ought to be applied in such cases, special regard ought to be paid to two points. The object to be attained ought to be distinctly national, and not one in which particular individuals or classes were concerned. There ought also to be a definite understanding that, as a proof of their earnestness in the work they proposed to undertake, the Societies themselves should contribute largely towards the object they had in view. He did not think that Parliament ought to be called upon to place in the hands of gentlemen four or five times the amount of the aggregate subscriptions to the society or the association for which aid was sought.
  MR. BELLassented to these conditions, providing they did not tie too tightly the hands of those who had to determine what a national object was. He bore testimany to the great good which might be done by such a Board as that indicated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He hoped the Board would be inaugurated at no distant day.
  MR. LYON PLAYFAIRsaid, he might say, in explanation, that he had not suggested or asked for any special Vote for the Meteorological Society of Scotland. All he asked was, that the Government should intimate to the Council of the Royal Society that it was quite within their scope to give power for increased expenditure for national purposes connected with meteorology, such as those he had mentioned—for instance, climatic conditions affecting the herring fisheries, climatic changes affecting the health of the people, &c. He only asked that the Treasury should intimate to the Royal Society that it was within their scope to support such inquiries. If that were not possible, he would throw out a suggestion which he hoped might fructify the fertile soil of

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  the Treasury Bench, and that was that as such inquiries were of supreme importance to Scotland and the Scotch fisheries, and as the Government made large profits from the brand, and were likely to make a peculiarly large profit this year, the Treasury should consider whether they could not allow the Fishery Board to help the Meteorological Society out of the funds which it would acquire from the herring fisheries. If this question were reserved and if a satisfactory case were made out, a Vote could be introduced into the Supplementary Estimates when they were brought in.
  MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, he could not undertake to follow the suggestion that had just been made.
  MR. M'LARENwished to state, lest hon. Members might imagine that the Society was making an unreasonable claim, that the Society approved of all the conditions which the Secretary to the Treasury had laid down—namely, that the money should be for national objects, and no other purpose whatever. With reference to the suggestion that those interested in the Society should themselves contribute liberally, he said that they had contributed liberally for 20 years without receiving a shilling from the Government. All their expenditure had been contributed by themselves, and surely nothing could be more liberal than that. The hon. Gentleman had said that a Society ought not to ask three or four or five times the amount from the Government which it contributed; but that Society was quite content to receive the equivalent of the amount it subscribed, and surely that was not asking three or four times the sum they contributed. The real fact was that because Scotch Members in that House were few in number, and had no Home Rule bond of union, the officials of the Treasury in every possible way pared down allowances and grants to Scotland, whilst in every case of taxation they made Scotland pay to the uttermost farthing.
  MR. RAMSAYsaid, he was not in the least surprised, that the Secretary to the Treasury should again seek to put the Scotch Members off when they made an application to receive a share of the money which was devoted to meteorological purposes. The discussions that had taken place in past years had clearly shown that they were not asking that
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  the grant to the Royal Society should be reduced; but that the contribution that was made by the Scotch Meteorological Society to science should be recognized by the State as a useful part of the meteorological work done for the benefit of the whole community. The right hon. Member below him (Mr. Lyon Playfair) had suggested that some part of the fund derived from the herring fishery brand should be devoted to the special purpose of making an investigation into isothermal lines, and the influence of that knowledge would, no doubt, be of advantage to the herring fisheries. He considered that they were quite entitled to demand and to get from the Treasury a grant equal to what the Society contributed towards the advancement of meteorological investigation. They had been put off from year to year, and he thought their forbearance ought not to be practised upon too far; because although they had not hitherto fought in the way Irish Members had done to secure their objects, he believed that if the hon. Gentlemen opposite continued to treat them with the indifference they had heretofore met with, they might be driven to fight, and might fight quite as successfully in obstructing Business as their Irish friends. They did not desire to get up a Home Rule agitation; but if Scotland was to be altogether ignored, if they were to continue permanently to be ignored when they advanced claims of that kind, he did not know of anything that could lead more surely to an agitation for Home Rule. He deprecated the treatment they had heretofore received, and hoped that, notwithstanding the statements of the hon. Gentleman, he would be disposed to consider that proposal with greater favour, and to conform to the suggestions made by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lyon Playfair) when he asked that the Treasury should intimate to the Council of the Royal Society that they had the power to give to other societies some contribution from the sum voted by Parliament for meteorological purposes.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERprotested against the doctrine laid down by the hon. Gentleman. These grants could only be given for the sake of services to be rendered to the country, and not according to the population or taxation of any particular part of the

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  Empire. When the Papers connected with this matter were laid on the Table it would be seen that the grants were made for strictly national objects, and that the Committee appointed consisted of Gentlemen thoroughly competent to deal with the question. He could assure the Committee that if the Council recommended that a further extension should be given to meteorological inquiries the Government would consider what could be done to meet the fair claims of Scotland.
  SIR JOHN LUBBOCKsaid, that the distribution of these grants was entrusted, not to the Royal Society itself, but to a committee of scientific gentlemen suggested by that body. It was in no sense a grant to the Royal Society, and formed no precedent for a grant to any particular Society. He hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would stand firmly by what he had said, and would leave the distribution of the fund in the hands of the Committee. He was sorry to hear the question argued from a local point of view. It was not an English, Scotch, or Irish question. The main point was to see that the money was spent well for the promotion of the interests of the whole nation.
  SIR GRAHAM MONTGOMRBYcomplained that the Government, in the construction of the Meteorological Committee, had, by their letters and instructions, prevented the Committee from giving that assistance to the Scotch Meteorological Society which they ought to have done. He hoped that before the Supplementary Estimates were brought in the Government would see their way to giving greater liberty to the council, so that they might afford assistance to the Scotch Society if they thought desirable.
  MR. M'LAGANsaid, that the Vote was already too small, but he should move to reduce it still further unless the claims of Scotland were recognized. In the Report by the Treasury Committee it was stated that the Council to be appointed by the Treasury would have it in its power to give a grant to the Scotch Meteorological Society for its researches. His right hon. Friend below him (Mr. Lyon Playfair) mentioned some of the researches which the Scotch Society had taken in hand, and amongst them there was particularly the investigation as to the effect of the temperature upon the
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  herring fisheries, upon the soil and agriculture, and upon health. Now, he wished to know whether such researches came within the scope of the Meteorological Council? If they had a satisfactory answer to that, and the Council had the power to give the grant, then they would be satisfied; but if they found that the Council had not the power to give the grants, then they must oppose the Vote.
  CAPTAIN MILNE HOMEasked the Secretary for the Treasury, Whether there would be a representative from Scotland on the new Council about to be appointed? If the grant was to be national, so ought the Council to be also.
  MR. W. H. SMITHreplied, that it would hardly be possible for a representative of the Meteorological Society of Scotland to attend daily, at his own expense, the meetings of the Council in London. The names of the proposed Council would be laid on the Table before the Supplementary Estimate was moved.
  Vote agreed to.
  (4.) £7,970, to complete the sum for the University of London, agreed to.
  (5.) £3,000, to complete the sum for the Deep Sea Exploring Expedition, agreed to.
  (6.) £9,200, to complete the sum for the Paris International Exhibition.
  MR. GOLDSMIDinquired, Whether it was likely that the total Estimate of £50,000 would be exceeded, and on what principle England and other countries exhibiting had been required to provide architectural fronts to the spaces allotted to them?
  MR. SERJEANT SPINESasked, Whether the Government would make any representations to the French Government to obtain more space for English exhibitors? One of his constituents, who intended to exhibit spinning machinery, had been shut out from doing so by having made his application through an agent and not in his own name, and when he repeated the application the whole space was already allotted. He had reason to believe that many other persons were in the same position.
  MR. BELLsaid, that the number of square feet assigned by the Directors of

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  the Paris Exhibition to English exhibitors was 56,000, and the Royal Commission had received applications for over 150,000 feet, the applications from the manufacturers alone amounting to nearly the whole of the space assigned.
  MR. LYON PLAYFAIR, as Chairman of the Finance Committee of the Commission, wished to say that the sum of £50,000 was, in comparison with previous Exhibitions, a small amount; but by the care and attention which had been given to the whole subject by the Royal President of the Commission, and by the assistance which they had received from the representatives of various branches of industry, they hoped that, in spite of the architectural fronts, England would be exceedingly well represented without any increase upon the Estimate. This would not have been possible had it not been for the great zeal and liberality with which many exhibitors had come to the aid of the Commissioners. There was every reason to suppose that with £50,000 they would be able to make this the best Exhibition England had ever given in any foreign country. It was a matter of deep regret that the eminent manufacturer referred by the hon. and learned Member for Oldham (Mr. Serjeant Spinks) had not received space; but it was owing to a technical error of the manufacturer himself in not sending in his name. They had received from the French authorities for more space than they originally intended to allocate to England. There were some nations to whom space had been given who would not exhibit, and perhaps, therefore, some more space might be obtained for British exhibitors.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERobserved that when the proposal was first submitted to the Government to ask Parliament for a grant in aid of the Paris Exhibition, the Treasury decided that a grant not exceeding £50,000 should be applied for. A Royal Commission, of which His Royal Highness the Prince of Wales was President, was appointed, and several Members of the Government, of whom he was himself one, were on the Commission. At that Commission it was proposed by His Royal Highness, who had taken a deep and personal interest in the management of the whole business, that a Finance Committee should be appointed, with considerable power of checking the whole
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  expenditure. His Royal Highness did him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) the honour of suggesting that he should be Chairman of that Committee; but he felt that it was better, as a Member of the Government, that he should not be a Member of that Committee, and that the Treasury should restrict themselves to the function of keeping the Commission within the bounds of the Vote. His right hon. Friend opposite (Mr. Lyon Playfair) had been appointed Chairman of the Finance Committee, and had been efficiently and assiduously discharging his duties.
  Vote agreed to
  (7.) £2,072, to complete the sum for the Board of Education, Scotland, agreed to.
  (8.) £13,964, to complete the sum for Universities, &c., in Scotland, agreed to.
  (9.) £1,500, to complete the sum for the National Gallery, &c., Scotland, agreed to.
  (10.) £440, to complete the sum for the Commissioners of Education (Endowed Schools), Ireland, agreed to.
  (11.) £1,789, to complete the sum for the National Gallery of Ireland, agreed to.
  (12.) £3,494, to complete the sum for the Queen's University, Ireland, agreed to.
  (13.) £9,404, to complete the sum for Queen's Colleges, Ireland, agreed to.

  CLASS V.—COLONIAL, CONSULAR, AND OTHER FOREIGN SERVICES.
  (14.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £139,725, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, for the Expenses of Her Majesty's Emhassies and Missions Abroad."
  MR. RYLANDSprotested against the large expenditure under this head, and moved to reduce the Vote by £5,000. He remarked that there was no branch of the public service, except perhaps the Navy, which had created a larger amount of criticism. The diplomatic expenditure had gone on increasing for a great number of years. The Committee on Official Salaries, which sat in 1850, suggested

  1405
  certain reductions and economies in the Diplomatic Service, and if these recommendations had been carried out they would have saved £150,000 in their diplomatic expenditure during the last 25 years. He raised the question in 1869 of the diplomatic expenditures, and on that occasion, in a large Committee of the Whole House, the Motion for reduction was only rejected by the casting vote of the Chairman of the Committee. During the last few years the tendency had been to increase the expenditure, and there was £25,000 more spent than in 1850–1. It had been said with truth that the Diplomatic Service was an aristocratic preserve, and there was no doubt that the Service was arranged in a manner very different from the other Public Services. The Diplomatic Service, instead of having the principle of competition applied to it, rested upon the nomination of the Foreign Secretary, and the young attachés were selected from families of great political and social position; and instead of the expenditure being cut down when an Embassy was found to be unnecessary, there was always a pressure to keep it up. He wished to remind the Committee that whilst this expenditure on the Diplomatic Service had been increasing to so large an extent the circumstances under which the Diplomatic Service existed had entirely changed, and it had been rendered much less important. At the beginning of this century British interests were supposed to be involved in every little change in the petty States of Europe. We went into the French revolutionary wars to retain the old respectable Royal Families of Europe in their legitimate position. But all this had now passed away. We could watch revolutions abroad without thinking it necessary that our Foreign Office should have their fingers in the pie. The policy of this Kingdom had changed with regard to the question of intervention; but we still considered it necessary to keep up the old-established system. In those days a very great part of the arrangements of Europe depended upon secret and complicated negotiations, carried on by means that were now never contemplated. In fact, the personal influence of a Sovereign was paramount, and upon his state of health or mind depended the issue of peace or war. And women, too, played a large part in work-
  1406
  ing out Court secrets in those days. The Secret Service money was then a reality, and not the mere sham which it was at the present time. Everybody was bribed, from a King's mistress down to some petty officer of the Government. There was a tradition that important information respecting the secret Articles of the Treaty of Tilsit was purchased by the gift of a diamond necklace to a lady connected with the Russian Embassy. But all this had been changed. Europe was then covered by petty States, the focus of intrigue and mischief; but these had been consolidated into the Great Empires of Germany and Italy, and no longer endangered the peace of Europe. The telegraph and railways had brought the British Government into immediate contact with all the great capitals of Europe. The Foreign Office could communicate by the telegraph with the Ambassadors, and there was now not the necessity for a large staff of diplomatists. By looking at the Blue Books hon. Members would see how completely the British Ambassadors were even guided and governed by the Foreign Office. Constantly, either by despatches or by telegraphic messages, as matters of importance had arisen, the Foreign Office had communicated with the Ambassadors abroad; and by means of the telegraph, or by other means of communication, the Foreign Secretary had directed the Ambassadors as to the course which they ought to take. It seemed to him that all the circumstances which he had very briefly glanced at, showed that though the number and the class of the representatives in the Diplomatic Service might have been justified under the circumstances which existed 50 years ago, it was entirely unjustifiable at the present moment. To the Great Powers of France, Germany, Russia, Austria, Italy, the United States, and he supposed he might still say Turkey, they sent Ambassadors of the first rank, and surrounded them with a very large staff. There was not one of the staffs that might not be reduced. He was quite ready to admit that if it was necessary to have representatives anywhere it was clearly necessary to have them in these centres of political influence, but below these great Embassies were the small Kingdoms and States of Europe, where there might be a very great reduction indeed. There was no necessity to have

  1407
  a Minister of first rank in Denmark, Sweden, or some of the lesser European States, where, under ordinary circumstances, a Chargé d'affaires would be sufficient, and if anything turned up of importance, it was easy to send a Plenipotentiary. And then, again, the small German States were under the control of Germany, and there was no necessity to have special representatives at those petty Governments. Then there were some third-class representatives in South American States who might be done away with, and their duties discharged by Consuls. For instance, the Argentine Republic cost us £4,400, when, perhaps, £2,200 would be amply sufficient. In moving that the Vote be reduced by £5,000, he merely wished to intimate that the Vote was excessive. He believed if the Foreign Office would deal with it in a thorough manner and get rid of unnecessary officials, and reduce the rank of some of the American Embassies, they might save many thousands per annum. The second and third class Secretaries of Legation were much more numerous than were required by the necessities of the case. In speaking on this Vote last year he understood the Under Secretary to promise that a Return would be given of the expenditure of the different Embassies, but he had not yet seen the Return.
  MR. BOURKEwas understood to say that the Return for 1875 was given with the Appropriation Accounts some months ago.
  MR. RYLANDSsaid, that his reason for asking for it was that in former years great abuses had arisen under the heads of miscellaneous expenditure, and it was a great check to have the items laid on the Table of the House. He begged to move that the Vote be reduced by £5,000.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £134,725, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, for the Expenses of Her Majesty's Embassies and Missions Abroad."—(Mr. Rylands.)
  MR. BOURKEsaid, the hon. Member had not moved the reduction of the Vote upon the ground of extravagance in any particular Mission, but upon the general ground that a reduction should take place in the Service. He thought that was hardly the way to deal
  1408
  with any branch of the Public Service. The only way of showing whether a large reduction could be made was by going into particulars and pointing out instances of extravagance in detail; but the hon. Member had only so far gone into particulars as to state that he thought certain Missions—such as the Netherlands, Norway and Sweden, and Denmark —could be abolished or reduced. With regard to the Netherlands, the Minister there had not a large salary; but his (Mr. Bourke's) experience since he had been in office showed him that there was no country in Europe with whom he had so many and so diverse commercial relations as the Netherlands. Again, we must maintain our position with other countries. There was no doubt that the interests of England would suffer if we had Ministers of inferior rank to other countries at the various places mentioned. All these matters had been minutely gone into by the Committee of 1871, of which the hon. Gentleman was a Member. That Committee made a Report to which the hon. Gentleman assented, and the effect of that Report was that it had not been shown to the satisfaction of the Committee that the expenditure had been extravagant, while many reforms had been made by the chiefs of the Foreign Office. That was the Report of the Committee in 1871, and since 1871 many other reforms had been effected, which had tended to the economy and efficiency of the Diplomatic Service. With regard to the other places mentioned—the minor German States, Darmstadt and Coburg—the hon. Member was well aware that there were special reasons for retaining a Minister at these places. At both Hesse Darmstadt and Coburg personal considerations connected with the relations of the Sovereign had rendered it especially desirable that a Minister should be retained, and they had often been found extremely useful. Other Powers had representatives there of equal rank with ours, and it did not follow, as had been shown by Mr. Hammond before the Committee, that because a place was small a representative there was of no use. As to the system of appointment to the Diplomatic Service, that question had been raised by the hon. Member for the Border Boroughs (Mr. Trevelyan) in the early part of the Session, when he (Mr. Bourke) pointed

  1409
  out that Lord Derby thought it impossible to make it an open service. The majority of the Committee of 1871 recommended that the present system should be continued, and if it were not continued he must say that a very large increase would have to be made in the salaries, and consequently a great increase in the expense must be expected. Both Lord Derby and the late Foreign Minister (Earl Granville) had come to the conclusion that, under all the circumstances, it was impossible to appoint any one to the Diplomatic Service who had not private means. The salaries paid were inadequate to the amount which those engaged in the Service were obliged to spend. He thought the present was a most inopportune moment for reducing this Estimate. In fact, it was found it would be necessary to increase, rather than diminish, the number of our Consular Agents abroad. There was hardly any Department in the Foreign Office which was receiving more attention than was this Department; and the House might depend upon it that it would be the desire of the Government to keep it efficient without incurring any unnecessary expense.
  MR. GOLDSMIDsaid, the hon. Member for Burnley evidently thought he had a mission to alter and re-arrange the map of Europe, and with the assistance of the German Emperor he certainly had to some extent been successful. But he hoped the Committee were not prepared to express a wish to see the smaller States of Germany absorbed in order that we might no longer send representatives to them. He, in common with many other hon. Members, strongly disapproved of the annexations made by the German Emperor—such as that of Hanover—and also regretted that this country was no longer represented in some very important places. He felt quite sure that the Netherlands could not be regarded as an insignificant country; and when it was remembered that it was a country that had done more for the march of freedom even than the hon. Member, it was not desirable that we should give notice that its independence ought to cease because some Members might wish to withdraw the salary of our Diplomatic Representative. We had such Representatives in only 32 countries, and in other countries we had only Consular servants. He believed that
  1410
  many of the difficulties which had recently arisen were owing in a great measure to the reduction of our Diplomatic and Consular Establishments. He hoped the Government would not give way to the ill-advised pressure which had been brought to bear upon them during the last few years for a further reduction of our Diplomatic and Consular staff. As the Under Secretary had just stated, the present was a time not for reduction, but rather for increase. The country ought to be well represented in small independent States as well as in the larger ones, and he trusted the independence of those small States would be preserved for many years to come.
  DR. CAMERONagreed with much that had fallen from the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands). He (Dr. Cameron) had last year moved the reduction of the Vote on account of certain proceedings which had taken place in Peru, and he considered it desirable to call attention to the fact that we had been dragged into something worse than a fiasco by the course taken by Admiral De Horsey, who had acted on some information that the Huascar had been committing outrages on British interests. If we had to wait for more detailed information on that subject we should have to wait until next Session or the Session after that. He objected to our having such highly-paid representatives in Peru, where they could not be communicated with speedily; where they could not be controlled by the Foreign Office; but they had just such powers as to get us into mischief. He cordially supported the Motion of the hon. Member.
  MR. GORSTsaid, there was no part of the world in which it was more necessary that we should be represented by efficient public servants than it was in the Republics of South America, because delicate and difficult questions arose which must be decided without the advantage of telegraphic communication with England. The very fact that we required such efficient servants was a reason why the sum at the disposal of the Foreign Office should not be reduced.
  MR. HAYTERsaid, he should like to know who was now in actual receipt of the £8,000 charged for the Ambassador at Constantinople. If Mr. Layard received that amount there must be a vacancy at Madrid, for which £5,000

  1411
  was charged, and if Mr. Layard was at Constantinople only temporarily, then perhaps Sir Henry Elliot was receiving it. There was, too, a larger number of Secretaries at Constantinople than at any of the principal Courts of Europe; for while there were five at Constantinople there were only four in Austria, three in Germany, three in Italy, and three in Russia. It would be satisfactory to know why two more were kept in Constantinople than in Germany, Italy, or Russia. He would also be glad to know on what principle the salaries of our representatives in Greece and Denmark were based; because there seemed to him to be a great disparity in some of the items connected with those Embassies.
  MR. BENTINCKconsidered the course pursued by the hon. Member opposite (Dr. Cameron) as most irregular with regard to the Shah and the Huascar, when it was known to him that the Papers relating to the matter would be produced; and with regard to the conduct of Admiral De Horsey, it would be found that he had been fully justified in the course he had taken by the circumstances of the case.
  MR. BOURKEsaid, he was not aware whether Mr. Layard was now receiving the Madrid salary of £5,000, or the Constantinople salary of £8,000; but his impression was that a special arangement was entered into with him when he went to Constantinople. He was not at present able to answer the question more fully. With regard to the Secretaries at Constantinople, he did not think there was any Mission in the world that was more hardly worked than the Mission in that city, and there were frequent complaints of the large amount of work that had to be done. It would be impossible to reduce the staff at Constantinople. The gentleman who was acting as Chargé d'Affaires at Madrid was receiving extra pay of £1 a-day. [An hon. MEMBER: Sir Henry Elliot?] According to the rules of the Service, Sir Henry Elliot received half his salary. Salaries had been adjusted from time to time, and when a salary had been settled it was almost impossible for a Secretary of State to reduce it.
  MR. DILLWYNthought it most extraordinary that the hon. Gentleman was not able to give the Committee any satisfactory information on transactions which
  1412
  had been the subject of discussion all over Europe. As the Government seemed to take the matter so easily, and turned their attention to the matter so little, he thought it desirable that the Vote should be postponed in order that the hon. Gentleman might be able to obtain further information respecting these matters.
  MR. BOURKEsaid, he had given all the information that had been required, except on one point, and that was as to whether Mr. Layard was receiving the Madrid salary. If the hon. Member considered it important he would give the information when the Report was brought up.
  Question put, and negatived.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  (15.) £165,894, to complete the sum for Consular Services.
  In reply to Sir CHARLES W. DILKE,
  MR. BOURKEsaid, that the appointment of a Chief Justice of China and Japan was still under consideration.
  MR. EVELYN ASHLEYcalled attention to the importance of appointing a Consul at Massowah, where a representative of England formerly was stationed. A great sea trade went on from the ports since the Egyptian Government had extended its dominions to the Red Sea, and he thought it of great importance to this country to know what was going on in Abyssinia and the neighbouring countries.
  MR. BOURKEconcurred in the importance of appointing a Consul at Massowah, which, after inquiry, had been decided to be the best place for a Consul on that part of the coast of the Red Sea.
  Vote agreed to.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £53,176, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, in aid of Colonial Local Revenue, and for the Salaries and Allowances of Governors, &c., and for other Expenses in certain Colonies."
  MR. GOLDSMIDurged that full information concerning the state of these Colonies ought to be laid before the House with the Estimates, in order that it might know what it was doing. Especially the House ought to be informed whether the revenue was pro-

  1413
  gressive or not, and what was the condition generally of the Colonial revenues in those cases in which grants in aid were asked for.
  MR. ERRINGTONobserved, that it was difficult to calculate the expenditure that took place in the Colonies, as there was no mention of it in the Army Estimates. He thought the House should be informed upon that subject. Last year the military expenditure at Barbadoes was not less than £100,000, and the events that then took place in that Island must have greatly increased it. It was very objectionable that the House should not be in possession of information as to the nature of Colonial expenditure.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that certain expenses incurred on Imperial account were charged to the Imperial Exchequer, but military expenses for local services were charged to the Colonies themselves. The item of £3,000 odd charged in the Malta account represented, of course, a very small proportion of the military expenditure incurred in the Island, but was paid on local account as a portion of the police estimate. This was a very moderate sum for keeping order in the Island. As regarded information to be given to the House, it should be understood that the Estimates were laid on the Table in February last, and the Supplemental Estimates at the end of the following month.
  MR. SHAW LEFEVREsaid, he had hoped that the Under Secretary would have given the House some account of the financial position of Fiji. The sum of £30,000 was proposed to be taken in aid of Fiji in these Estimates, and £35,000 was taken last year. From private information he was aware that there had been a remarkable increase in the revenue of that country, but he should like to know from the mouth of the Home Secretary whether this was the case.
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he was glad to hear of the improved state of Fiji, but it would be more satisfactory if the information came from the Government. The Papers last presented to the House only showed that the Colony was in a state of hopeless bankruptcy. It was feared last year that a war would break out in Fiji, and those fears had been realized. They should, he thought,
  1414
  have some explanation as to that war, and as to the fact the forces employed by the Governor had been commanded by Mr. Gordon, a civilian and secretary to the Governor. In order to obtain that explanation, he would move the reduction of the Vote by £30,000.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £23,176, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, in aid of Colonial Local Revenue, and for the Salaries and Allowances of Governors, &c., and for other Expenses in certain Colonies."—(Sir Charles W. Dilke.)
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he was happy to be able to confirm the statement of the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw Lefevre), that there was a very good prospect of a considerable improvement taking place in the revenues of Fiji. No doubt the position of the Colony last year was such as to cause some anxiety, but recent accounts showed that there had been a great improvement. He explained that £25,000 was required this year in aid of the local revenues, and that the other £5,000 was wanted to meet charges arising out of an Act passed by the House with general acclamation for the protection of the labour traffic; but expressed a hope that another year it might not be necessary to ask for a grant. The war to which reference had been made by the hon. Baronet (Sir Charles Dilke) was unavoidable, having been brought about by the attacks made upon friendly Natives by hostile tribes in the interior of the country. The fact that the chief command on that occasion was confided to a civilian did not escape the notice of Lord Carnarvon, and the explanation tendered was that the force employed against the Natives was a civilian force, consisting of police and volunteers, and that as there was a difficulty in the way of obtaining the services of an officer of the Regular Army, and there was no very able strategist to contend against, the command was entrusted to a very energetic and able official who was on the spot, and who conducted the operations to a successful issue. Owing to the exertions of Sir Arthur Gordon, the labour traffic had been brought within a very narrow compass, and nothing approximating to domestic slavery existed in the Colony.
  MR. CHILDERSasked what was the revenue and expenditure of Fiji last year; what were the estimates this year of the revenue and expenditure; and what was the total indebtedness of the Colony to this country at the present moment?
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, that unfortunately the estimated revenue was considerably in excess of the sum obtained, the discrepancy being caused by the epidemic of measles which broke out soon after the establishment of the Colony. It was, therefore, found necessary to apply to Parliament for £35,000. As regarded the total indebtedness and expenditure of last year, he had not the figures with him, but he would undertake to produce them on the Report. As regarded the expenditure for the present year he could only give round numbers, as there was great difficulty in getting statistics from a new Colony like Fiji.
  MR. JOHN BRIGHTwished to ask the hon. Gentleman a question with regard to what he had called the war in which Mr. Gordon led the resisting force. He did not know whether it could be called a war or not, but it was a disturbance of some kind. But, after it was over, he judged from the reports in the newspapers that there was rather an extreme measure taken in the execution of some savages. He did not know whether they were hanged or shot, or by whose orders, or under what law or after what trial. But it appeared to him, judging from the newspaper reports, to have been a very singular and a very severe measure, and he thought the House ought to have some information upon it. The Colonial Office must have received some special account of a transaction of so serious a nature, and he wished to ask the hon. Gentleman whether he would be kind enough to lay the Papers on the Table, together with the Correspondence which had taken place with regard to the employment of Mr. Gordon in a military capacity? He thought the whole matter should be laid before Parliament.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he should have much pleasure in laying upon the Table all the despatches with reference to this matter. As regarded the execution of the persons mentioned by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, it was an act which Sir
  1416
  Arthur Gordon represented to be one of absolute necessity, but one which Sir Arthur Gordon, nevertheless, deeply regretted.
  MR. SHAW LEFEVREwished to know whether it was not a fact that the reason these people had been executed was they had not only been taken in open rebellion against the Queen's authority, but that they had committed the most revolting crimes of murder and cannibalism.
  MR. GOLDSMIDwished to know what was the revenue last year of the Island of Fiji and what the expenditure. He thought further information was necessary, or they would have to endeavour to postpone the Vote.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he had not the figures by him, but he would produce them on Report. With reference to the question of the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw Lefevre), there could be no doubt that the persons executed had been guilty of very serious atrocities, but he could not say whether they had been guilty of the particular atrocity mentioned.
  MR. JOHN BRIGHTsaid, it must not be understood that he made any charge against Sir Arthur Gordon. He had known him for many years, and he was the very last person whom he should think capable of doing anything very severe. He (Mr. Bright) thought, however, that this was a case in regard to which we ought to have further information. These savages were said to be guilty of a crime because they had eaten their prisoners. Well, that was merely a habit of the country. It had been so for a long time, and he did not believe there was anything in our law to put a man to death on account of that.
  MR. GORSThoped the Committee would insist on having further information as to the execution of these unfortunate people in Fiji. These men, no doubt, were cannibals. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham's remark had been received with laughter; but, after all, we had no right to execute men merely because they did what their ancestors had done for generations. It might be a very good reason for introducing civilization into the country, but it was not a reason why they should execute these men.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERpointed out that the Committee

  1417
  were drifting into an inconvenient discussion of a matter of serious importance. In the course of this conversation some expressions had been used which ought not to he employed in discussing so grave a subject. The Government had not at the present moment the Papers which were asked for. He felt, however, that the question put by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham ought to be fairly answered, and that a full explanation ought to be given on the subject. No one who was acquainted with Sir Arthur Gordon could doubt that when any matter in which his administration was challenged was brought under the notice of Parliament, it would be found that he had acted with that statesmanlike ability which distinguished him. But the House was really talking of matters in the dark. Nothing could be more mischievous than that such delicate questions referring to the relations of the British power to Native races should be thus discussed. He would therefore suggest that the Report of this Vote should be a distinct Report, and should be taken on a day sufficiently distant to allow of the Papers being produced or information given.
  MR. SHAW LEFEVREwished to correct the hon. and learned Member for Chatham (Mr. Gorst) in one particular. The Natives who had been decribed as rebels were so actually, as they had accepted the British authority and had lived under it for some months.
  MR. HERMONpressed the hon. Member for Chelsea to withdraw his Amendment upon the understanding that the Vote should also be deferred.
  MR. J. LOWTHERsaid, he should be happy to postpone the Vote.
  MR. PARNELLhoped that full details would be afforded of the executions of these people, as he knew of instances where men had been cruelly executed nearer home than Fiji.
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKE, in withdrawing his Amendment, said, that he had alluded only to the financial condition of the Colony.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  (16.) £2,044, to complete the sum for the Orange River Territory and St. Helena, agreed to.
  (17.) £5,642, to complete the sum for the Suppression of the Slave Trade, agreed to.
  (18.) £11,537, to complete the sum for Tonnage Bounties, &c. and Liberated African Department, agreed to.
  (19.) £1,742, to complete the sum for Emigration, agreed to.
  (20.) £1,170, to complete the sum for the Suez Canal (British Directors).
  In reply to Sir JOHN LUBBOCK,
  MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, it was true that certain payments were made for the British directors, who did not reside in Paris; but it was the duty of those gentlemen to travel from London to Paris from time to time to attend all the meetings of the Board, in order fully to represent the interests of this country, and that duty they discharged. The whole arrangement had been explained by his right hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) when the Bill relating to the Suez Canal purchase was passing through Parliament, and when the original Estimate was taken for that service.
  MR. MONKwished to ask whether the nominal value of the shares of 500 francs each, which were held by the Government, would, when drawn, be paid to this country? If so, would this country cease to have an interest in the Suez Canal as soon as the last share had been paid off, or what interest would it still have in the property?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the question was one of importance, and one which, of course, deserved notice. It was, however, rather a complicated matter. The shares which were held generally by the Suez Canal Company were liable to be paid off in time, according to drawings, and that would naturally apply to all the shares. But the shares which had belonged to the Khedive of Egypt, and which were afterwards purchased by Her Majesty's Government, stood in a peculiar position, because they had been mortgaged, in a certain sense, and handed over to the Company, the coupons being cut off for a certain number of years. Those coupons had been applied to form a new fund called délégations, and the délégataires—the persons who purchased those délégations—were interested in the proceeds of those shares as long as they

  1419
  should continue. Then the question arose, what was to happen if any of those shares which had been so placed in a peculiar position were drawn among the shares which had to be paid off? There was a provision, he believed, that any person who was paid off should retain his right of voting in respect of the shares, though he was not quite sure as to that. But that did not affect the shares of the British Government. If one of the shares with the coupons cut off was paid off, the British Government would receive the value of the share, and that would be more than they had bargained for when they bought the shares, and the délégataires would have less profit than they stipulated to obtain. The provision made was of this nature:—The share was paid off, and the amount was placed to an account, which was under the control of the British Government; but the British Government did not receive the interest on the share so paid off until the expiration of the time for which the coupons were cut off, and during that time the proceeds went to the délégataire. At the end of the time the British Government would receive the capital, which was placed in British securities, and in the names of British officials, so that it would be impossible that the money should be lost to the nation. The arrangement was somewhat complicated, and it was rather difficult to make it clear to the Committee off-hand.
  MR. CHILDERSasked whether the Government were aware, when they purchased those shares, that they were liable to be paid off?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Yes.
  MR. MONK: I wish to know this. At the end of the period when all those shares have been drawn, what interest will the British Government have in the Suez Canal; or will it continue to have any interest in the Canal?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The shares and profits equal to the shares which the stock represents.
  Vote agreed to.

  CLASS VI.—SUPERANNUATION AND RETIRED ALLOWANCES AND GRATUITIES FOR CHARITABLE AND OTHER SEEVICES.
  (21.) £254,011, to complete the sum for Superanuations and Retired Allowances.
  MR. RYLANDScalled attention to the growing amount of these allowances, expressing his belief that if these heavy charges were allowed to continue, they would give rise to a very considerable amount of public discontent. He complained that under the existing system of retiring and superannuating officials a large number of persons were struck off from duties which they were still quite able to perform, and paid large sums of public money for which they did not continue to render any public service. He thought the time had come when this Vote must be dealt with in a vigorous manner.
  MR. CHILDERSremarked upon the enormous amount of retirement from the Survey Department, while there was no diminution of the Vote for the service of the United Kingdom. A large number of those officers were retired, and the charge for their retirement amounted to several thousands of pounds. He found by the Estimate for the Office of Works that 15 or 16 gentlemen had been compensated at a total charge of £3,000 a-year without any reduction at all having been made in the Department.
  MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, he had little control over this Vote for superannuation allowances. He might, however, explain to the Committee that, in the course of time, offices became burdened with an unsuitable class of public servants. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Childers), when First Lord of the Admiralty, had occasion to recommend a reduction in the staff of that Department, and that reduction involved a serious charge upon the superannuation Vote. These changes were requisite for the maintenance of the efficiency of the public service. He might, however, add, that whenever a man was found capable of doing his work, the Treasury recalled him to public service, and if he did not answer to that recall he forfeited his pension. It became necessary to take up a re-organization of the Office of Works, and a sensible decrease would be found of salaries and wages in the Vote for that Office, while he believed there was no deficiency in the work done there. A large number of officers of that Department had to be

  1421
  retired. The Chairman of the Inland Revenue recommended the alterations.
  Vote agreed to.
  (22.) £19,600, to complete the sum for the Merchant Seamen's Fund, Pensions, &c., agreed to.
  (23.) £22,500, to complete the sum for the Relief of Distressed British Seamen Abroad, agreed to.
  (24.) £11,404, to complete the sum for Hospitals and Infirmaries, Ireland, agreed to.
  (25.) £2,741, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Charitable Allowances, &c. Great Britain, agreed to.
  (26.) £2,762, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Charitable and other Allowances, Ireland, agreed to.
  (27.) £2,700, to complete the sum for Commutation of Annuities, agreed to.

  CLASS VII.—MISCELLANEOUS, SPECIAL, AND TEMPORARY OBJECTS.
  (28.) £12,969, to complete the sum for Temporary Commissions, agreed to.
  (29.) £6,045, to complete the sum for Miscellaneous Expenses.
  MR. CHILDERSexpressed a hope that the Government would see their way to the appointment of a sufficiently influential Commission whose investigation might lead to the abolition of the whole of the existing absurd system under which fees were paid.
  MR. DILLWYNdrew attention to the great increase in the charge for robes, collars, badges, &c., for the Knights of the several Orders, which amounted this year to £4,240 against £1,800 last year.
  MR. W. H. SMITHsaid, he would make it his duty to see before next Session whether some means could not be devised for getting rid of the system referred to by the right hon. Member for Pontefract.
  Vote agreed to.
  Resolutions to be reported.

  REVENUE DEPARTMENTS.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £733,315, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Customs Department."
  MR. O'SULLIVANsaid, that there were more Boards of Customs than were necessary, with the exception of Liverpool, Glasgow, Dublin, and a few other places. One Board, with fewer officers, was quite equal to the discharge of the greater part of the duties, the others being relegated to the Board of Inland Revenue. He moved the reduction of the Vote by the sum of £974,215. He might mention that he had proofs in his hand to show that the racking off of spirits in bond caused a loss to the Government of £200,000, though the Chancellor of the Exchequer only admitted a loss of £13,000. All this would be avoided if all the work was carried out under one Board; but the system of gauging in the Customs was quite different from that carried out under the Board of Inland Revenue, which was the principal cause of loss to the revenue of the country.
  THE CHAIRMANpointed out that the hon. Member had moved to reduce the Vote now asked for by a sum largely in excess of the Vote itself, and indicated the irregularity of submitting in this mode a Motion which was tantamount to saying "No" to the whole Vote.
  MR. O'SULLIVAN, explaining that he did not challenge the entire Vote, moved its reduction by the sum of £700,000 to raise the question.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £33,315, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, for the Salaries and Expenses of the Customs Department."—(Mr. O'Sullivan.)
  MR. W. H. SMITHobserved that the question raised by the hon. Member was a very large one, involving the abolition of one of the two great Departments of the Customs and the Inland Revenue. He was far from saying that it would not be possible for the Customs Department to perform many of the duties of the Inland Revenue Department, or for the Inland Revenue to perform some of the duties of the Customs Department; but the question was of too extensive a character to be summarily disposed of. It had already engaged the attention of successive Governments for many years; and it had been the earnest desire of

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  Government to employ as few hands as possible consistently with the efficiency of the Public Service; but, meanwhile, he did not think the present was a convenient time to discuss the question which the hon. Member had put before the Committee.
  MR. PARNELLdissented from the view that that was not a proper time for discussing the question.
  It being ten minutes before Seven of the clock, the Debate stood adjourned.
  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow;
  Committee also report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.
  The House suspended it sitting at Seven of the clock.
  The House resumed its sitting at Nine of the clock.

  TURKISH LOAN (1854).—RESOLUTION.
  MR. RUSSELL GURNEYrose to call the attention of the House to the circumstances under which the Turkish Loan of 1854 was subscribed for; and to move—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, the honourable obligations contracted in 1854 by the allied Governments of England and France towards the Turkish Bondholders of that year, will not permit a lengthened acquiescence of the" British Government in the unsatisfactory reply received from the Ottoman Porte,"
  when—
  Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,
  House adjourned at five minutes after Nine o'clock.

MINUTES.
SELECT COMMITTEE—Earldom of Mar, nominated.
PUBLIC BILLS —First Reading —Consolidated Fund (£20,000,000)*.
Second Reading—Registered Writs Execution (Scotland)* (144).
Committee—Report—Inclosure* (127); Saint Stephen's Green, Dublin* (134); Public Works Loans (Ireland) * (143); Companies Acts Amendment (No. 3)* (141).
Report—Universities of Oxford and Cambridge (146–151); Pier and Harbour Orders Confirmation (No. 2)* (113); Metropolitan Commons Provisional Order* (111); Open Spaces (Metropolis)* (149); General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Provisional Order Confirmation (Leith)* (137).

UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE BILL.—(Nos. 114, 138, 146.)
(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
UNIVERSITIES OF OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE BILL.—(Nos. 114, 138, 146.)

  REPORT OF AMENDMENTS.
  Amendments reported (according to Order).
  Clause 18 (Objects of Statutes for Colleges in relation to the University).
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBUEYsaid, that in pursuance of his promise to the noble Earl opposite (the Earl of Morley) on Friday night, that he would consider whether any addition was required to the 16th clause to enable the Commissioners to make provision for the Bodleian Library out of the funds of any Colleges—he had prepared a new sub-section to be inserted in Clause 18, as follows—
  ("4.) For empowering the College by statute made and passed at a general meeting of the governing body of the College specially summoned for this purpose, by the votes of not less than two-thirds of the number of persons present and voting, to transfer the library of the College, or any portion thereof, to any University library."
  Amendment agreed to; and inserted in the Clause.
  Further Amendments made.
  Bill to be read 3ª on Thursday next; and to be printed, as amended, (No. 151).

REVISION OF THE IRISH STATUTES.

  QUESTION. OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD O'HAGANinquired of the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, What progress had been made in

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  the revision of the Irish statutes? It was a work in which he took some interest, and he believed it was of importtance both to the practice of the law and the satisfactory administration of justice that statutes which were obsolete and useless should be removed from the Statute Book. The work of revision was of present value, and would be of very great advantage in the future, by facilitating the consolidation of the statutes and the codification of the laws relating to Ireland. As far as the English statutes were concerned, the work had made satisfactory progress; but in Ireland, he regretted to say, very little had been done. The Bill which he had the honour to introduce in 1872 provided for the revision of the Irish statutes only to the reign of Henry VII.—the year 1494—and there remained still some 40 or 50 statutes to be dealt with. Since 1872 nothing had been done in the matter. In 1875 another Bill was introduced, which, if it had passed, would have brought down the revision to 1726; but that Bill was not proceeded with, and during the last two years nothing more, as far as be knew, had been done. He wished, therefore, to know from his noble and learned Friend on the woolsack, what progress had been made, and what were the intentions of her Majesty's Government on the subject?
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he would willingly give his noble and learned Friend all the information he possessed. He must, however, point out that the question really related to the Acts of Parliament of Ireland previous to the Union. Legislation since the Union, of course, under the head of Imperial legislation, had been dealt with by the proceedings for the revision of the Imperial statutes. His noble and learned Friend was quite accurate in saying that the revision of the English statutes, although not yet quite complete, had made very considerable progress towards completion. The revised statutes had been actually published down to the year 1856; and that, of course, would include the legislation of Ireland as well as England since the Union. There came then the question of the ante-Union statutes. His noble and learned Friend had told their Lordships the Bill he introduced in 1872 revised those statutes down to the year
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  1494—certainly a very distant day—and there it stopped. The year before last a second Bill was brought into the other House proposing to bring down the revisal of the ante-Union statutes to a still later date. The Bills for the revision of the Imperial statutes were generally introduced in that House and sent down to the House of Commons, and it had been the habit of Parliament to place confidence in those entrusted with the work, to take the Bills on trust, and to pass them without examination. In point of fact, examination of measures such as these would be utterly impossible by Parliament. The Bills went into such minutiae that they must be taken on the faith of the draftsman, or the work could not be done at all. Parliament had, therefore, accepted the Bills upon the faith of those who had introduced them. In regard to the Bill introduced in 1875 providing for the revision of the Irish statutes, a different course was adopted. The Bill, after it had been read a second time, was met first by a Motion to refer it to a Select Committee. Their Lordships, of course, did not require to be told that a Select Committee with such a Bill before them would have found their skill and energy taxed to the utmost. The Bill was also met by an Amendment raising the question of the policy of revising certain statutes. There again, he did not need to remind their Lordships that if a revision Bill was to be made the subject of controversy as to the bearing of the statutes it dealt with, a very wide area of discussion would be opened up. The result of these Motions was, that the Bill had to be abandoned. Now, he could assure his noble and learned Friend that the Lord Chancellor of Ireland and the Law Officers of the Crown were extremely desirous that the revision of the Irish ante-Union statutes should continue; but, at the same time, he felt bound to point out that, if a revision Bill was to become the subject of hostile discussion, it would, have little or no chance of passing, because—however important it might be in a certain sense, other Bills would always have precedence of it. In fact, the chance of a Bill of that kind passing depended upon its being unopposed. If it were opposed, it was scarcely possible but that it should have to make way for other measures I of a more pressing nature. That was

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  the position of the question to which the noble and learned Lord had directed the attention of the House.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Six o'clock, to Thursday next, half-Past Ten o'clock.