Sitting of 10 July 1877

MINUTES.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee —CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES—CLASS IV.
WAYS AND MEANS—considered in Committee— Resolution [July 9] reported.
PUBLIC BILLS — Ordered — First Reading — Consolidated Fund (£20,000,000)*.
Second Reading —Contingent Remainders* [152]; Exoneration of Charges* [151].
Second Reading —Committed to a Select Committee— Public Health (Ireland) * [116].
Considered as amended — Oyster and Mussel Fisheries Order Confirmation* [222].
Third Reading—Tramways Orders Confirmation (Barton, &c.) * [218]; Registered Writs Execution (Scotland) * [133]; Public Works Loans (Ireland)* [139]; Companies Acts Amendment (No. 3)* [238]; Provisional Orders (Ireland) Confirmation (Holywood, &c.) * [192]; Legal Practitioners* [43], and passed.
The House met at Two of the clock.

QUESTIONS.
  INLAND REVENUE—SPIRITS IN BOND.

    QUESTION.
    MR. O'SULLIVANasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If the operation of racking the same parcel of spirits in bond has been repeated several times in the bonded warehouses at Belfast; and, if so, whether this repetition of opera-
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    tions be in accordance with the Customs regulations on that subject; and, if the expense of the officers attending such operations are borne by the Government; and, if so, was that expense included in the thirteen thousand pounds which the Government admit was lost to the Revenue during the past year in one store alone?
    THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: There is some little confusion between the operation of the Inland Revenue, I think, and the Customs. On the whole, it seems to me that it would be more convenient to the House, and to those who take an interest in this subject, that I should call upon the Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue and the Chairman of the Customs to prepare a joint Report, stating exactly what has been done in this matter, and what is to be done. That Report will be prepared, and I shall be able to lay it on the Table of the House. I believe that, with reference to this particular question, there is no doubt that the operation of racking the same parcel of spirits in bond has been repeated several times in the bonded warehouses in Belfast, the object being, as stated by the operators, the improving and maturing of the whiskey. But as soon as it was discovered that the removal of the empty casks, after these racking operations, afforded the opportunity of abstracting the small quantity of spirit in the cask, and that a constant repetition of the process would eventually bring up the amount of duty thus lost to the revenue to a considerable sum, the Government placed themselves in communication with the Inland Revenue, and issued orders on the subject. With regard to the expense, I may say that the expense of the officers attending the operation in the warehouse during the legal hours of business is borne by the Crown, but after legal hours it is borne by the merchant. With regard to the £13,000, that belongs to the Inland Revenue, and the Government know nothing about it. I think it will be most convenient that we should have a general Report on the subject.

    EDUCATION DEPARTMENT—CONFERENCE ON DOMESTIC ECONOMY, BIRMINGHAM.—QUESTION.
    MR. MUNTZasked the Vice President of the Council, If it be true that

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    the Committee of Council on Education have forbidden Her Majesty's Inspectors of Schools to attend the Conference on Domestic Economy to be held this month at Birmingham; and, if so, if he would state why?
    VISCOUNT SANDON: We are sorry to be unable to meet the wishes of the Conference and to sanction the attendance of our Inspectors there. But, in the first place, it is held at one of the busiest seasons of the year, when many of the schools are waiting for grants which depend upon the Inspectors' visits, while, as the holidays are approaching, the visits cannot be deferred. Beyond this, so many of these Conferences on education matters are now held concerning subjects on which we have afterwards to consult our Inspectors, that we have laid down a general rule to discourage the attendance of these officers at such meetings, where they would be committed upon subjects respecting which afterwards we should wish to have the advantage of their unbiassed judgment. I need hardly assure my hon. Friend that I am quite as anxious as he is that domestic economy should be well taught in our schools, and I shall look with interest to hear the result of the important Conference proposed to be held in Birmingham.

    NAVY—ENGLISH OFFICERS IN THE TURKISH SERVICE.—QUESTION.
    MR. W. WHITWORTHasked the Secretary to the Admiralty, If he is aware that a Chief Engineer of the Royal Navy on retired pay is at present serving the Turkish Government on board of the frigate "Memdouhiye," now lying in the Victoria Dock, Black-wall; and, whether this double service is in accordance with the orders of the Admiralty regulating the observance of a strict neutrality during the war between Russia and Turkey?
    MR. A. E. EGERTON,in reply, said, that Mr. Smylie, the officer referred to, was granted leave of absence in April last, in order that he might accept employment with a firm of eminent English engineers in Turkey. The Admiralty had only that day learned that he was at present serving in a frigate belonging to the Turkish Government. An intimation had at once been sent out to him that he must either
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    resign his position under the Sultan, or be struck off the English Navy List.

RUSSIA AND TURKEY—RUMOURED INTERVENTION.—QUESTION.
MR. WHALLEYasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether there is any ground for the statement in "The Ruski Mir" (Russian Journal), that "there is reason to believe that the new French Cabinet have agreed with England as to naval operations in the East;" and, whether, if not now convenient to reply to the Question as to which, if any, European Power, except the Papacy, approves or will support the policy of Her Majesty's Government in restricting the operations of Russia in this war, he will reply thereto before the end of the Session; and, if so, when?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Mr. Speaker, I hardly know how to look upon Questions of the sort which the hon. Gentleman puts. I cannot help thinking that Questions put in this House are really of an important character, and that they attract some attention both at home and abroad; and, therefore, it would be desirable that hon. Members who have Questions to put should take some little trouble to ascertain whether there is ground for putting those Questions, and should not, whenever they see anything in the newspapers, put it upon the Paper in this House in order to ask Questions of the Government. With regard to the first Question of the hon. Gentleman, I feel some difficulty in answering it. He wants to know whether there is any ground for a statement by a Russian journalist that "there is reason to believe" so and so. Well, I do not know what ground the Russian journalist may have had for having "reason to believe "what is here stated; but I can only say that, so far as the Government here are acquainted with the subject-matter, no communications of the character that seem here to be glanced at, have taken place. There have been no agreements with either the new French Cabinet or the late French Cabinet with regard to naval operations in the East. These are matters which appear in newspapers as surmises, guesses, or conjectures; and I do not think there is any ground for them at all. At all events, there is

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no ground for the allegation of such an agreement as is here spoken of. With regard to the second Question, I really must decline again to enter—at all events in the form of an Answer to a Question put in this way—into a discussion of the policy of Her Majesty's Government and the views which other Governments may take upon the subject.

NAVY—THE NAVAL COLLEGE SITE—DARTMOUTH.— QUESTION.
SIR FREDERICK PERKINSasked the Secretary to the Admiralty, Whether there is any truth in the statement which appears in "Mayfair" of today (the 9th instant), and which purports to be given on the authority of the trustees of the Mount Boon Estate, Dartmouth, that the Admiralty has been informed that the estate is not for sale; and, if so, what steps the Admiralty propose to take in order to carry out the intentions of the Department, announced by him on Monday, of adopting the recommendations of the Committee of Selection, and erecting a Naval College on the Mount Boon Estate?
MR. A. F. EGERTON: There is no truth in the report in the paper to which the hon. Member refers that the Admiralty has been informed that the estate is not for sale. The fact is that the Master of the Rolls has given his sanction to the negotiations; and the site will be kept open for acceptance or refusal till the end of the present Session.
SIR FREDERICK PERKINS: I have seen the solicitor to the trustees of the estate, and he assures me positively that the statement in Mayfair is perfectly true.
MR. A. F. EGERTON: Perhaps the hon. Member will allow me to read a letter from the solicitor to the property, dated the 31st May. I have seen him during the last few days, and he has confirmed what it states. He writes to this effect—
"As the Dartmouth site was, so it is and so it will be. The Master of the Rolls gave his sanction to the negotiation, and so it remains."

THE SOUTH AFRICA BILL.
MR. E. JENKINSgave Notice that, on going into Committee on the South Africa Bill, he would move—
"That this House, while approving generally of the principle of this Bill and of the Con-
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federation of Colonies which are contiguous and associated in interest, regrets that no sufficient reason has been given by Her Majesty's Government whereby the initiative of a scheme of Confederation should proceed from the Imperial Government, and not from the Colonies themselves."
MR. W. E. FORSTER: I wish to ask the right hon. Gentleman a Question of which I have given him private Notice with regard to the further progress of the South Africa Bill and the Supplemental Vote in reference to the annexation of the Transvaal. The Under Secretary for the Colonies, in moving the second reading of the Bill yesterday, said a further explanation had arrived from Sir Theophilus Shepstone with regard to the grounds on which he has annexed the Transvaal; and the hon. Gentleman informed the House that that statement received the full approbation of the Government. I beg, therefore, to ask the right hon. Gentleman, Whether there will be any objection to the production of that despatch, as the House certainly ought to be acquainted with its contents; and, whether he will allow it to be circulated either before the Vote is taken, or before a further stage is asked for the Bill?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: The right hon. Gentleman has only just now given me Notice of the Question, and I have not been able to see my hon. Friend the Under Secretary, or Lord Carnarvon. I believe, however, that further communications have been received. I will ascertain what they are, and I have no doubt we shall be able to lay them on the Table before the Vote is taken, and the Bill advanced another stage.
MR. MUNTZinquired, Whether there would be any objection to lay upon the Table a map representing the annexation?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I will see whether that can be done.

THE MAGISTRACY (IRELAND) — MR. WILLIAM ANCKETELL.—QUESTION.
MR. SULLIVANasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, If he can state was has been the decision of the Lord Chancellor of Ireland in reference to Mr. W. Ancketell, J.P. D.L. as affected by certain evidence elicited on the recent trial of Hawkes v. Ancketell in the Irish

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Court of Queen's Bench; and, if he will lay upon the Table Copies of any Correspondence on the subject?
SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: The Lord Chancellor has very carefully considered this subject; but he wishes it to be clearly understood that in doing so he has not taken into account the fact of the verdict obtained by Mr. Hawkes in his action against Mr. Ancketell, there being a motion for a new trial pending in that case. Other matters appearing in the evidence reported to have been given upon the trial, the Lord Chancellor wrote to Mr. Ancketell for an explanation. On receiving a reply, he made further inquiry, and as the result, has come to the conclusion that it is his duty to supersede Mr. Ancketell in the commission of the peace. If the hon. Member wishes to move for the Correspondence, I will consider whether it can properly be laid on the Table.

SUPPLY.
Order for Committee read.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES—THE EDUCATION VOTES — DEPARTMENTAL STATEMENT — PARLIAMENT — RULES AND PRACTICE OF THE HOUSE.
VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, a feeling was entertained in many quarters of the House that it would be more convenient before going into Committee to submit his Education Statement. It was thought further that it would be better to embrace in that Statement all the various Departments that came within the control of the Education Department. Before entering upon the subject of elementary schools he felt that he should be doing very wrong if he did not recall to the recollection of the House the great public loss they had sustained by the death of a very distinguished man—one of the founders of the present educational system—Sir James Kay-Shuttleworth. It was impossible for anyone who had watched the growth of our educational system in the present generation not to feel that he was one of those who took a great part in the satisfactory work that had been done—
MR. W. E. FORSTERrose to Order, and pointed out that it was a perfectly novel practice to make the Ministerial Statement with regard to the Vote before going into Committee. Notice ought to have been given that it was intended to adopt that course; and it could hardly be accepted as a precedent without an expression of opinion from the Speaker and also from the House as to whether it was a desirable practice. If it were admitted in regard to the Educational Vote, it would form a precedent with regard to the Army and Navy Estimates.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he would refer to what had taken place at an earlier period of the Session. A desire was expressed by the House that a Statement should be made by the Secretary of the Treasury before going into Committee of Supply on the Civil Service Estimates; there had been a discussion on the Motion of the hon. Member for Rochester (Mr. Goldsmid), and the result had been a promise to make a general Statement before entering into details. When they came to consider how that Statement should be made, it had been found that the only convenient course was to make it while the Speaker was in the Chair, and on the Motion that he should leave it. It had been stated at the time that the same course would be pursued—or was, at least, contemplated with regard to the Education Estimates—and that the Statement on the general subject would be made with the Speaker in the Chair. It might, perhaps, be inconvenient to take that course in regard to the Army and Navy Estimates; but as for the Education Estimates the course adopted was the one intended by the Government, and communicated to many Members of the House.
MR. SPEAKER: The House is aware that on the occasion of the Motion of the hon. Member for Rochester a general desire was expressed on the part of the House that the Statement relating to the Civil Service Estimates should be made with the Speaker in the Chair. The Estimates now to be proposed are a branch of the Civil Service Estimates, and it apears to me that the House is, by the course proposed, carrying into effect the desire that appeared to be expressed on the former occasion. But whether the same course should be

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adopted with regard to the Army and Navy Estimates is a question to he further considered by the House. It would not he irregular for the noble Lord to make a general Statement with the Speaker in the Chair, although that course has not been ordinarily followed.
SIR JOHN LUBBOCKsubmitted that as Votes 1, 2, and 10 of Class IV. were alone specified on the Notice Paper it was not at all expected that the noble Lord would make his general Statement before going into Committee. Besides, a number of hon. Gentlemen had placed upon the Paper Notices of Motion on going into Committee; and if the course now proposed were adopted it would be another infringement upon the rights of private Members. He therefore protested against it.
MR. SPEAKER: I would point out that the course proposed to be taken does not necessarily shut out Amendments on going into Committee of Supply. It would still be competent for hon. Members to bring them forward.
MR. RYLANDSthought so important a change as was now proposed ought not to be made without due consideration, as it might prove an inconvenient precedent with regard to the other Estimates.
MR. W. H. SMITHreminded the House that the noble Lord was exactly following the course pressed upon the Government by the House almost unanimously on the introduction, earlier in the Session, of the Civil Service Estimates. Upon that occasion he expressly stated that he did not propose to go into any explanation of the Education Estimates, because they would be explained by the noble Lord. The Government had simply acted in compliance with the wishes of the House, and desired only to secure that the statement should be made, as hon. Members had expected it to be made, in a manner most to the advantage and convenience of the majority of the House. Both the hon. Member for Nottingham (Mr. Isaac) and the highest authorities of the House concurred in thinking the course taken most conducive to the proper management of the public Business. The Estimates could be thoroughly discussed, both generally and in detail; and the Government had relieved the House of the uncertainty as to the time when the statement would be made, without in
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the slightest degree interfering with the full liberty of Members to raise questions upon the Motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair. He thought, then, that the House would feel that the arrangement, having received the approval of the Speaker and other high authorities, was, on the whole, fit and proper.
MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that having already spoken he would put himself in Order by concluding with a Motion. What the Secretary of the Treasury had just stated as the chief reason why the course now proposed should be taken was exactly the reason why it should not be taken without Notice. The House had no expectation that such a course would be adopted. There were grounds for taking the course now proposed in the case of the Civil Service Estimates, which covered a very large field, and with regard to which a preliminary Statement by the Secretary to the Treasury was desirable and useful; but those reasons did not apply to the Education Vote any more than to the Army or Navy Estimates. He did not say that it might not be desirable in the case of all these large Votes that the Minister should make his Statement before going into Committee; but he contended that such a precedent should not be made at 2 o'clock in the afternoon in a small House, and without the slightest warning. He had not the slightest idea that such a course would be taken, and if the intention had been generally known, he believed the attendance of Members would be much larger than it was at present. When a Statement was made in Committee the restrictions to speeches did not apply which applied when the Speaker was in the Chair. In order to record his protest against such an important change being made without the slightest Notice he should move the Adjournment of the House.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."— (Mr. William Edward Forster.)
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he did not wish to waste all the morning in talking over what seemed to him—he did not like to use the expression which rose to his lips about it. All he would say was, he could not for the life of him understand what the right hon. Gentleman's objection was. The

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right hon. Gentleman said, that if the Statement was made with the Speaker in the Chair there was not the same opportunity for discussion as with the Chairman of Committees in the Chair. But not a single sixpence could be taken with the Speaker in the Chair. The money must be voted with the Chairman in the Chair, and therefore there would be the same opportunity of discussion as before. But it was not worth while to waste time, and if it was the wish of the House that his noble Friend should not make his Statement with the Speaker in the Chair, he would not proceed with it. The course which his noble Friend proposed to take was made in accordance with the strongly expressed wish of hon. Gentlemen opposite below the Gangway in the case of the Civil Service Estimates; and it really seemed to him that the objection which had been taken was one of the most extraordinary he had ever heard.
MR. B. SAMUELSONsaid, if there was any waste of time it arose from the action of the Government. Although he was in communication with the noble Lord last evening he had not been informed that this course was about to be taken.
MR. ISAACsaid, he had heard last night from an hon. Member opposite that the noble Lord intended to make his Statement with the Speaker in the Chair. This was the first intimation he had of such intention, consequently hon. Gentlemen opposite must have been aware that such was to be the course of procedure before it was known on this side of the House. He (Mr. Isaac) had considered the present state of Public Business the obstruction to all legislation, and the impossibility of being able to fully discuss his Question, and he should not proceed with the Motion of which he had given Notice to the effect that it was desirable that the expenditure for the Departments of Science and Art should not be exclusively confined to London, Dublin, and Edinburgh; but he would bring it forward next Session as a Substantive Motion, instead of then going into Committee of Supply, particularly as his right hon. Friends the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Vice President of the Council had given him an assurance that the matter should be considered during the Recess.
MR. RAIKESexpressed his opinion that a more salutary change in the course
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of Public Business than that which the noble Lord had proposed could not be made. It was unreasonable, considering the great length at which hon. Members explained their individual opinions on a great public question like Education, that the only person presumed to be disqualified from expressing his sentiments was the Minister who knew more about the matter than anyone in the House. When we saw the Paper loaded with Notices, were we to be told that the Minister was to be the only one precluded from raising a discussion before the Speaker left the Chair, and from dealing with questions raised by hon. Members?
MR. CHILDERSsaid, it appeared to him to be a very different thing for the House to decide that a certain course should be followed after due Notice, and for a Minister without Notice to take a course purely arbitrary. When the Navy Estimates were before the House, it was stated that the Minister would deal with certain questions when the House went into Committee; but when the House was in Committee, a point of Order was raised, and the Minister was not able to deal with them. If that was done on one branch of the Estimates, it might be done also on another.
VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, he hoped the House would not go into a discussion of the point on its merits. His only object had been the convenience of the House; but if the House thought it would be inconvenient for him to make his statement out of Committee it was sufficient, and the Government would at once withdraw. It was only following the course pursued with regard to the Civil Service Estimates, and he thought it was sufficiently announced to the House by the Secretary to the Treasury on a former occasion that the proposed course with regard to the Education Estimates would be adopted. It was undesirable to waste time in discussing the point. He, however, thought that, instead of wasting time and stifling discussion, it would facilitate Business and give a double opportunity of discussing the subject, once on the whole of the Estimates, and subsequently on each Vote when in Committee.
MR. ANDERSONsaid, the change was not made at the earnest solicitation of hon. Members below the Gangway. The hon. Member for Rochester (Mr.

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Goldsmid) asked that the Civil Service Estimates should be taken the same as the Army and Navy Estimates, and that a general Statement only should be made before going into Committee, but only at the beginning, in the same way as was done with the Army and Navy Estimates, and not as was being now proposed.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
Original Question again proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

TRAINING COLLEGES.— RESOLUTION.
MR. B. SAMUELSONmoved the following Resolution:—
"That the English Education Code, by requiring that all students of training colleges receiving Government aid must reside within such colleges, a condition not imposed by the Scotch Code, and by withholding from graduates of universities the encouragement offered by the Scotch Code to enter on the profession of Elementary Teachers, tends to increase the cost of the erection and maintenance of these colleges, and to diminish the number of duly qualified teachers."
The hon. Member observed, that unless some change such as he suggested were made in the English Education Code, it would be found extremely difficult to supply the elementary schools in this country with a sufficient number of trained teachers. Comparing the applications for admission and the actual number of admissions to training schools in England and Scotland, he found that in 1876 the number of successful candidates in Scotland was 646, of whom no less than 519 were admitted into the Scotch training schools; whereas in England it was necessary to reject 42 per cent of the candidates who had successfully passed the examination for admission, the proportion rejected in Scotland being only 20 per cent. It could not be said there was an over-supply of trained teachers in England or in Scotland. In the latter the supply, which was certainly not in excess of the demand, amounted to 1 in 96 of the children in the schools; whereas in England there was only one trained teacher for 128 children. In England for eight elementary teachers there was but one in training for the profession; whilst in Scotland for four elementary teachers there was one student in training. Therefore, if there was no
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excess of trained teachers in Scotland, it was clear that in England there must be a great deficiency in the supply. That deficiency, he believed, could be supplied if the English training schools were assimilated to those of Scotland. In England every student must be boarded within the College; but in Scotland there was no requirement of that nature. In England the cost of training one student was £33 a-head; but in Scotland it only amounted to £26 a-head. If the Scotch system were adopted in this country, he believed the National Society and the British and Foreign School Society would be prepared to meet the increasing demand for space in their training schools, and would provide the necessary accommodation, which they would be able to do at much less cost than the present. If the school boards in large towns were given the power of establishing day training schools for those who were to be employed as teachers in their own schools, great facilities would be afforded for the training of elementary teachers. Within the last four years 100 trained graduates of Scotch Universities had entered into the profession of elementary teachers, and so important was the privilege deemed by the Universities of Scotland, that they had united in drawing up a scheme of instruction for elementary teachers, which they had submitted to the Lord President of the Council. He had seen the scheme, which he considered to be a good and sound one, and he hoped the noble Lord would tell them that it had been adopted by the Government. He hoped they would receive an assurance from the noble Lord that it was the intention of the Government to consider, with a view to their abolition, the distinctions that at present existed between the Scotch and the English Education Codes, to the disadvantage of England, for which no adequate reason had been assigned, and which he regarded as a blot on the system of elementary education in England.
MR. M'LARENseconded the Amendment. He wished to state that he concurred entirely with the remarks of the hon. Member on the advantages of the Normal Schools and Colleges in Scotland, and could certify that the Scotch system worked exceedingly well, and much better than any system of Colleges for students, where there would be an orna-

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mental building with corridors and public rooms, and other expensive architectural arrangements. If the expense were calculated, it would be found that it would cost less for a student to share a small house as a lodger than to enter a large College. He must warn the noble Lord against relying upon the advantages gained by young men at Universities as being sufficient to make good teachers. The people in Scotland viewed the training of teachers with very great jealousy. It was not necessary that they should be learned men, but they should be practical and good teachers. Many who had attended the Universities and were very learned made very bad teachers. If, therefore, the noble Lord placed too much reliance on University training, he would fall into an error which might prove disadvantageous.
Amendment proposed,
To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "the English Education Code, by requiring that all students of training colleges receiving Government aid must reside within such colleges, a condition not imposed by the Scotch Code, and by withholding from graduates of universities the encouragement offered by the Scotch Code to enter on the profession of Elementary Teachers, tends to increase the cost of the erection and maintenance of these colleges, and to diminish the number of duly qualified teachers,"—(Mr. Samuelson,)
—instead thereof.
Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, the subject had been already discussed this Session, and the opinions of many leading Members of the House were pretty well known. The differences between the English and Scotch Code were, for the most part, matters in which the Department had no option. It was bound by the Scotch Act to recognize attendance at the Scotch Universities. Some consideration had to be paid to the habits and customs of a country, and the usage was one which suited Scotland; but while it would not have been wise to upset it, it did not follow that it would suit this country. The English system started on the assumption that boarding-houses were abstractedly the best. The moral training of young men and women was a serious matter; it was of the ut-
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most importance that they should not be scattered about towns in chance lodging-houses, and that they should be gathered together under the supervision of good and trained teachers. There was every prospect of an ample supply of well-trained teachers for a few years, the present supply being calculated to be sufficient for the "waste" incident to a staff of 25,000. There was an ample supply of male teachers, but the increase in the number of small schools and girls' schools might render it necessary to augment the arrangements for the supply of female teachers. No request had been made by an English University for arrangements similar to those which existed in Scotland; he did not imagine Oxford or Cambridge was likely to make such a request, and the Department would not be able to entertain such a proposal from a University which was merely an examining body, and did not engage to take the oversight of the morals of the young people committed to its charge. Of the staff of 12,400 scholars under instruction about 8,000 came from Training Colleges and 4,000 from other sources. The hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren) had usefully called attention to the danger of taking mere University men as teachers without due securities for their efficiency. At present grants were made to Scotch Training Schools only, and not to the students personally, and were not paid until the students who earned them for their school, after examination by the Department, actually became teachers, and went through a two years' course of probation. The Scotch Universities proposed that Bursaries should be established for individual students, to enable them to attend University classes for two years without going to a Training School. They also asked that the Bursars should be examined by the University, and that a diploma, granted by the University, should be accepted by the Department as equivalent to a teachers' certificate. They also proposed that the Bursars should make a "declaration of agreement" to follow the profession of a teacher, in consideration of the public money spent upon their education. These proposals represented the course which the hon. Member for Edinburgh very wisely appeared to deprecate. The first objection taken by the Department was

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that the proposal failed to secure due supervision—in such towns, for example, as Glasgow and Edinburgh—of the students, who were young men of from 18 to 21 years of age. It also failed to secure any practical training in the art of teaching and any instruction in subjects essential for teachers of elementary schools, but lying outside of the University course. There was also no security that these young men would receive any religious instruction. Another objection was that there was no real security that the students would follow the calling of a teacher after they had been trained for it at the public cost. The Education Department also felt that the proposal, so far as it removed the élite of the Queen's scholars from the Training Colleges, not only discredited institutions which had done thoroughly well a great work for the elementary education of the country, but rendered useless much of the large expenditure which had been contributed by the public funds and the voluntary promoters of education in Scotland towards the foundation of these training schools. The proportion given by the Government towards these Training Colleges had been £20,000, and the sum raised by voluntary subscriptions had been £30,000. The Education Department wished, however, to meet the views of the Scotch Universities as far as possible, and they proposed in the first place to allow the Queen's scholars greater freedom in attending the Universities during the five months of their winter session by removing the restriction on the number of classes (two) in which they might be enrolled. It was proposed in the next place to distinguish by some special mark in the class list of the examination for Queen's Scholarships the candidates whose proficiency in special subjects, such as Latin, Greek, and mathematics, appeared to qualify them for attending University classes. The third proposal was that such Queen's scholars should be allowed —not required—to attend classes in these subjects in a University, and relieved still further than at present from attending the Training School classes during the University Session. Lastly, it was proposed that existing arrangements as to their religious, practical, and professional training, and the payment for the students, should remain on the present footing. In short, the Queen's
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scholars were to continue to be regarded in all respects as students of the Training Schools, but would be permitted if qualified to receive a larger share of their education at the hands of the Universities than present arrangements allowed. He hoped that the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. B. Samuelson) and hon. Members for Scotland would admit that the Department had done what it could to meet the reasonable demands of the Scotch Universities, although they could not give up their objections to the previous proposal of the Universities. Everything now pointed to a large and adequate supply of thoroughly trained teachers, who should be worthy to take charge of the intellects as well as the moral and religious education of children. Schools would be gradually left more and more in the hands of the school-teachers, as it was becoming more and more the practice to confide the management of the school to the teachers. He knew that the only object of his hon. Friend was to obtain as good teachers as possible for the schools; but it was the duty of the Department to secure a due and adequate supply of teachers without making a great revolution in our system of English teaching.
MR. RAMSAYremarked that the noble Lord was under a misapprehension in assuming that the moral and the religious training of the Scotch schools was less perfect than in England, for the Governing Bodies of those schools took the greatest care to secure the proper moral training of the young people committed to their care. The best evidence that that object was attained was to be found in the fact that many of the teachers trained in these schools were employed in England, and none gave greater satisfaction than those who had been trained in the Scotch institutions. He wished also to refer to the remarks of the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. M'Laren), where he seemed rather to undervalue University training. He should regret if it were to go forth that any disregard was shown in Scotland to University training. While the training of teachers in the art of communicating instruction to their pupils was fully valued, it was important that the highest possible acquirements should be attained by those who had to take charge of the education

1059
of the young. How could that be done better than by instructing them in the highest branches of knowledge? He thanked the noble Lord for the encouragement he was prepared to give, and hoped he would continue to progress in the same direction.
MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that at the commencement of the Session he had expressed his views pretty clearly on this question, and he would now only briefly state why he should support the Motion of the hon. Member for Banbury. The noble Lord had not met the argument of the hon. Member by statistics. From the statistics in the Report, he (Mr. Forster) should have come to a different conclusion to that of the noble Lord. There were a very considerable number of teachers who were not trained at the training schools. The Report showed that 24 per cent of the male, and nearly 37 per cent of the female teachers, did not receive their education at those institutions. He thought, in all probability, that would continue to be the case. There was no doubt that the Training Colleges had become filled, and had responded to a considerable extent to the increased demand; but he thought the Department itself did not look forward to their fully meeting the demand. The chief reason for his supporting the Motion of the hon. Gentleman was, that he thought the present restrictions in the English Code, as compared with the Scotch Code, threw obstacles in the way of better training being given to those who did not go to the present Training Colleges. He did not see why the Department should not try the experiment of having day Training Colleges in large towns. The effect would be that side by side with the present Training Colleges we should have a number of day Colleges or Halls, in which there would be scholastic teaching in which young men and young women would also serve an apprenticeship to the art of teaching, and in which care would be taken that they were well looked after during the period they were receiving instruction, a result which might be secured by providing that they should not be admitted into these day Colleges unless upon the responsibility of the managers. By that means we should, he thought, be able to get teachers beyond the supply now furnished by the Training Colleges with
1060
as great proficiency and, at the same time, at a much less cost. He regretted to hear the noble Lord say that he could not listen to any of those suggestions because of the necessity of keeping up in this country security for religious teaching; for if the Vote for Training Colleges were to be based upon that argument, he strongly suspected that no Education Department would be able to maintain its position. He was as anxious as anyone that our teachers should receive religious instruction; but at present there was nothing which made it necessary that Training Colleges should give religious instruction, although, of course, we were glad to know that they did do so. He believed, he might add, that there would be great difficulty in increasing the number of Training Colleges, unless some means were provided by which young men and women might be trained for the profession of teaching without being compelled to go to a denominational College. The question of expense, too, was not a slight one. The cost of training an English teacher was nearly £39, while the Scotch teacher cost little more than £25, and he saw no reason why a system which had been found to work well in Scotland should not be introduced into the English Code.
Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes 121; Noes 78: Majority 43.—(Div. List, No. 229.)

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT — SCHOOL BOARDS—SELECTION OF SUBJECTS.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  SIR JOHN LUBBOCK,who had given Notice of his intention to move—
  "That it is desirable to modify the Education Code in such a manner as to give School Boards and Committees more latitude in the selection of subjects, and in determining the order and mode in which those subjects should be taught,"
  said, that, though he was prevented by the Forms of the House from moving his Resolution, he desired to direct the attention of the House to this important question. It was true that a number of so-called special subjects were nominally permitted to be taught; but it was, he feared, evident that practically the Schedule to the Code must remain a dead letter. Until the last year or two, reading,

  1061
  writing, and arithmetic were the only compulsory subjects; and regarding others, the school managers were allowed to select anything they pleased out of a certain list. Suddenly, however, without any reason given, or any discussion in this House, this discretion had been abrogated, and history, geography, and grammar, or two of them, were made compulsory. Now this regulation practically excluded other subjects; because, according to the last Report of the Education Department, which dealt with the year before the present Code came into operation, only 13 children in the whole of England were sent in for examination in more than two subjects. Practically, almost all discretion and all power in these matters had been taken from the local school managers, and concentrated in the Privy Council. He doubted whether, under any circumstances, it would be desirable thus to stereotype one form of education for every school in the Kingdom; but surely we ought not to do so without being very clear as to the best system. There was, however, very great difference of opinion on this head. The first authority to which he would refer, was that of a Committee of that House. It was presided over by his hon. Friend the Member for Banbury (Mr. B. Sa-muelson), and, after careful inquiry, they reported that, in their opinion, "elementary instruction in the phenomena of nature should be given in elementary schools." The next authority which he would quote was the Royal Commission, presided over by the Duke of Devonshire, which unanimously recommended that more substantial encouragement should be given to the teaching of the rudiments of science in our elementary schools. In Scotland, too, great dissatisfaction was felt with the present system. At the last Conference of elementary teachers, held in London, and very numerously attended, it was resolved that the system of payment "embodied in the Code is unsound in principle and injurious to the progress of true education." The Inspectors of schools differed greatly as to the most suitable subjects. Even in regard to geography, they were not unanimous. This, as a subject, was said to lend itself very much to "cram." One of the Inspectors gave in support some very amusing answers. For instance,
  1062
  in answer to a question of "What are mountains and rivers?" one girl replied that "Mountains in some parts of the world are very useful. In Africa, for instance, they shoot out gold." Of rivers she had not so favourable an opinion, though she thought "they were all very well in some countries where there was very little rain." He confessed, however, that he thought geography a very good subject, though he was not convinced that it ought to be continued during the whole course, to the exclusion of other subjects. The mere skeleton of history taught in our elementary schools contained little more than dates, wars, and murders; but dates and crimes no more constituted the history of a nation than sinews and bones made a man. As regarded grammar, the Inspectors were by no means agreed, and many of them, it would seem from the Report, even a majority, were strongly against it. After referring to the mode in which, according to Mr. Fearon, grammar was to be taught, the hon. Baronet proceeded to point out that language had been created and perfected by use and not by study. If our ancestors had been educated under the system of the noble Lord, our language would be far less terse, and would have attained far less convenience than fortunately it had acquired. But, if the best authorities disapproved of grammar, which the Education Department had rendered almost compulsory, there seemed a very general agreement that literature—which they had excluded—was the very best of all the subjects. Mr. Currey thought it "as useful and satisfactory as any," and would like to see greater encouragement given to it. Mr. Williams preferred it to any of the other subjects. Literature, however, would be almost excluded by the present Code. It was true that the children had to learn a certain number of lines by heart. That was all very well, but it was not literature. Again, in the teeth of strong Reports by a Committee of that House, and by a Royal Commission, in favour of teaching elementary science in schools, the Code was so framed that science was practically excluded. Now, did Her Majesty's Inspectors approve of this? Not at all. Mr. Danby regretted—
  "the entire absence of any attempt to teach the smallest rudiments of experimental science. The consequent atrophy of one set of

  1063
  faculties is a result to be much deplored. I humbly submit to your Lordships the advisability of directly encouraging in the school course such kind and amount of teaching as will furnish scholars with the acquaintance with the primary conceptions of physical science."
  MR. Legard said—
  "One of the weakest points about our English elementary education is its unscientific character; the idea that there is such a thing as a science of education is quite a novel one, and our backwardness in this respect is one of the reasons why the results in schools are not more satisfactory."
  He had referred at some length to the opinions of Her Majesty's Inspectors, because their views would have great weight with the House; but there was one class whose opinions were entitled to even greater consideration — namely, the children themselves. They might trust to the instincts of healthy, sensible children in the selection of food for the mind, as well as for the body. They knew what they could assimilate, and the present system being essentially bookish, overtaxed their memory, but appealed neither to their reason nor to their imagination, and was therefore distasteful to them. Now, it was noticeable that in the Scotch Schedule there were five subjects, and in the Irish no less than 10, which were entirely excluded from England. The Education Department might, indeed, say that they had not the same control in Ireland, but that argument could not apply to Scotland. Again, domestic economy was confined to the girls. It included, according to the rules laid down, a knowledge of "Food, clothing and its materials, the dwelling, cleansing, and ventilation." Why should not boys learn about cleanliness and ventilation, the management of income, expenditure, and saving? Surely, these subjects were most important. He also pointed out the inconvenience of the minute and stringent rules laid down by the Department. For instance, whatever subject a school determined to take up, it had to conform to the most minute rules as to the mode in which that subject was to be taught, and the order of succession in which various parts of it were to be taken up. A specified part was to be taken in the first year, another in the second, and a third in a third. But that arrangement would work very ill in the numerous class of schools in which only about 20 or 30 children would learn some special subject, as
  1064
  the Code would practically require them to be divided into three separate classes. He deprecated, therefore, these minute rules, and maintained, that even if the highest authorities were agreed as to the best system, it would not be wise to lay it down as an imperative and universal rule. Her Majesty's Government had recognized this principle by having a different Code for each of the Three Kingdoms; but different parts of England differed from one another at least as much as Dumfries from Northumberland. Surely in an agricultural school agriculture ought not to be excluded; while in mining and manufacturing districts a certain amount of chemical or physical instruction, bearing on the staple industries, would not be out of place. Again, much would depend on the character of the master. Dean Dawes and Mr. Henslowe had created schools proverbial for excellence. In both cases great weight was attached to elementary science, and the schools had been very successful. He did not on that account propose that elementary science should be made compulsory, but he submitted that it ought not to be excluded. Many persons regretted that School Committee elections turned so much on theological questions; but, under existing arrangements, who could wonder at this? School boards had, in fact, scarcely any voice in educational questions. It was most desirable that the best men and women should consent to act on school boards; but how could they be expected to do so, if deprived of the most important of their legitimate functions. Again, it was admitted that, under the old system, the masses of the school might have been neglected in some cases and attention given too exclusively to the clever ones; but was there not now a danger of falling into the opposite and more fatal error of neglecting the masses for the sake of the stupid children? He would not disguise from the House that the present system of elementary education was very far from being his own ideal. Not that he wished to make education more laborious, more difficult, or more abstruse. Far from it. The present system overtaxed the children; it wearied memory, neglected imagination, and discouraged thought. The subjects taught had too little reference to the realities of life. The wearisome

  1065
  monotony of dates and tattles, the abstruse technicalities of grammar, were more trying, more difficult to children than the subjects he recommended. He did not, however, ask Her Majesty's Government to substitute other subjects for those which they had chosen; all he said was, Do not unnecessarily impose on schools a system as to the wisdom of which, to say the least of it, there are grave doubts, and do not deprive school managers of the power they have hitherto exercised, and which you yourselves admit they have used with judgment. He would urge as modifications of the Code that grammar, history, and geography should be restored to the Schedule. The result would be that reading, writing, and arithmetic would be the compulsory subjects, and school managers would select and arrange the other subjects as they thought best. The instructions contained in the Code as regarded the mode of teaching the special subjects should be regarded as suggestive merely, leaving the actual details to be settled between the school authorities and the Inspector. Chemistry and agriculture should be added to the list of special subjects, and in some of the manufacturing and mining districts elementary classes bearing on the special industry of the locality might be desirable. Agriculture was included in the Irish Code, and the Irish Board had produced a very excellent little book on the subject. At any rate, it was a curious commentary on the present system that so many subjects which were included in Ireland should be forbidden in England. Finally, boys should not be excluded from the classes on domestic economy. The noble Lord might say that it was not desirable to disturb the Code again. That would be a strong argument, if any new conditions were proposed; but the noble Lord would in candour admit that it was no argument against a relaxation. The course he ventured to suggest would impose no new duties or conditions on school managers or on school committees. Those who preferred the present system would continue to act as at present. Thus the alteration could not reasonably be objected to from that point of view. He did not ask that education should be made more difficult, or more abstruse. Quite the reverse. He wished to see it made more amusing, and he thought that
  1066
  explanations should be given of the simple phenomena of nature, of day and night, summer and winter, of dews and frost, of the properties of air and water, of the simple rules which regulate health, of the nature of the simpler processes of agriculture, of the different sorts of soil, and of the common domestic animals. All he asked was that while reading, writing, and arithmetic were compulsory, Boards and Committees should be permitted to select such of the other special subjects as they might prefer, and should teach them as they might think best. He would trouble the House with only one more quotation—from the noble Lord at the head of Her Majesty's Government. The noble Lord, speaking in the House, had said—
  "It became the House well to consider what might be the effect of interfering with the habit of self-government by the people of England. It appeared to him that the Society of Education, that school of philosophers, were, with all their vaunted intellect and learning, fast returning to the system of a barbarous age—the system of paternal government. Wherever was found what was called a paternal government, was found a State education. … It had been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience was to commence tyranny in the nursery. The truth was that, where everything was left to the Government, the subject became a machine."
  But this was just what the noble Lord himself was now doing, and Her Majesty's Government, that "school of philosophers" were too prone to centralization. They were depriving local authorities of duties and functions which they had hitherto exercised. Local self-government, however, was the basis of political freedom; and in the cause of freedom, no less than in that of education, he hoped the House would approve the policy which he had advocated.
  MR. A. MILLSsaid, what he understood the hon. Baronet to suggest was that power should be given to school boards and managers of schools to make a larger selection of subjects beyond those which the Code made imperative with a view to interest the children. There were now 10 of those subjects, and there were three or four with regard to which a very large discretion was exercised by managers of schools. There were many thousands of children who were now receiving instruction in Latin, Mathematics, Animal Physiology, and Domestic Economy. He found from the

  1067
  Returns made to the Department that 34,000 children had presented themselves in English literature, 5,000 in Mathematics, and 5,200 in Animal Physiology. There was, therefore, at present, a large power of selection. The hon. Baronet wished that there should be less dictation and more liberty with regard to this choice of subjects. There was, however, very considerable liberty in this respect, and the hon. Baronet and the House should never forget that over the children in the elementary schools we could have control only until they were 13 years of age, and that of 26,400 children presented in the 6th standard no fewer than 19,000 failed in one or other of the three elementary subjects— reading, writing, and arithmetic. And if we were to widen the area of selection with regard to the subjects in the fourth Schedule of the Code we must not conceal from ourselves that it would necessarily involve either a larger expenditure in providing additional masters or the straining of the powers of the present masters and certificated teachers, who were already worked hard enough, and which he would be very sorry to see done. When we had got such a large number of children who were not up in the standard subjects, he thought it useless to add special subjects which they were not likely to be able to assimilate. The Inspectors and all who had most experience in the working of our schools told us that the elementary subjects were far from being thoroughly learnt; and therefore we ought to take care that a higher standard should be attained in those subjects before we went further. In the School Board of London, taking simply the teaching power, each child cost £2 12 s. per annum, or at the rate of 1s. per week. Of that 1s. 2d. was paid by private means, as the fees in the board schools averaged 2d. per week, and the remaining 10 d. was borne by the public funds. He did not grudge that money if the children were properly taught. But when five-sixths of the cost of elementary teaching came from the public funds, it was time they looked at the manner in which the money was spent. He was afraid if they widened the area so as to include the extra subjects proposed by the hon. Baronet they would be giving the children of tradesmen and upper servants, for a contribution of 2d. per week, an education
  1068
  such as he could only get for his boy at Eton, though the parents were perfectly able to pay the full cost of their children's education. If they altered the Code under pressure in this matter they would be landed in a system which the rate and taxpayers of England would not at all fancy. It was idle to suppose that they could increase the area of these extra subjects without considerably increasing their teaching power, and that would necessarily greatly add to the expense. He therefore felt it to be his duty to oppose the Amendment of the hon. Baronet.
  MR. LEVESON GOWERthought there was great force in the observations of his hon. Friend (Sir John Lubbock), which was not in any degree weakened by the contention of the hon. Gentleman who last addressed the House. The question of expense he considered they might safely leave to the local authorities. The proposal was not that the school boards should be compelled to teach these subjects, but that they should be permitted to teach them, and therefore the argument of expense did not come in. He wished to call attention to the importance of promoting instruction in domestic economy in the public Elementary Schools, and chiefly as regarded cookery. He could speak with some authority on the matter, having for the last three or four years paid great attention to it. He had acted as Chairman of the Committee for carrying out the Training School of Cookery at South Kensington. In March last 2,444 pupils had passed through that school, and cookery schools were now established in nearly all large towns in England and Scotland. Of the printed recipes for different dishes there were sold last year at South Kensington School, at 1d. each, 38,000 copies. In December they established 15 local classes in and about the Metropolis, the success of which had been most remarkable. The attendance had exceeded 13,000, chiefly the wives of small shopkeepers. The fees ranged from 2d. to 6d. But the wives of artizans were, of all others, the class specially interested, and there seemed to be great difficulty in getting them to attend those classes. The only way to get at them would be to teach cookery in school. That was the opinion of some of the school boards in the country. The London School Board had last year estab-

  1069
  lished four local centres for teaching cookery. In order that real and lasting good might be done by instruction in cookery, it must be given by persons who had themselves been specially taught. There had been sent to the Department many memorials thanking the Government for the valuable recognition it had given, and urging it to go further. Previously theoretical information respecting food and its preparations had been disseminated, and the subject had been connected with clothing and materials for clothing, and it was thought that food might be made a separate subject, and payments made for practical instruction in the same manner as for the teaching of elementary sciences. The principles of agriculture had been added to the list of special subjects; and as regarded the practical result there was an essential correspondence between agriculture and the preparation of food. An increase in the number of instructors was necessary, but the cost of that increase would be comparatively slight, for a good instructor could teach a very large number of persons. It would also be necessary to have special Inspectors to see that the work was thoroughly and efficiently done. Although cookery was a very important matter, it did not take long to learn. A very few days were sufficient for the purpose; but, when learnt, its application made a wonderful difference in the working man's home, and it was on that account he believed it worth while doing what he could to induce the Government to encourage the study of it.

EDUCATION DEPARTMENT — ALLOWANCES AND PENSIONS OF TEACHERS.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  LORD FRANCIS HERVEY,who had given Notice of his intention to call attention to the restrictions placed on the allowance of pensions to teachers; and to move—
  "That it is desirable to relax the restrictions imposed on the allowance of pensions to teachers of elementary schools,"
  said, notwithstanding the generous concessions that had been made by the noble Lord in favour of the representations which had been made to him, there was still considerable irritation and soreness among teachers, because the value of
  1070
  those concessions was diminished by conditions which operated to the prejudice of some of the most deserving teachers. One condition was that an applicant for a pension must be a certificated teacher at the time of the application, and this told with great hardship on those who after long service had resigned before the Minute was issued. Another condition was that an applicant must have been continously employed in teaching from the 9th of May, 1862; and many a career of long and valuable service had been interrupted by exceptional circumstances. He thought their case deserving of the consideration of the Vice President of the Council. As a general rule the limitations imposed by the Code were fair and just, but he thought that some of them might be advantageously set aside.
  MR. GRANT DUFF: The proposal of the hon. Baronet the Member for Maidstone (Sir John Lubbock) is not, as I understand it, to cause more subjects to enter into the obligatory teaching of elementary schools. He merely wants greater latitude to be given as to the choice of the extra subjects to be taught. At present, they are for practical purposes three only—geography, history, and grammar—for two of these must be taken up as a matter of necessity. Now, for the purpose of elementary teaching, geography and history should be considered as one subject, since geography, unless taught in connection with the broad facts of history, is a very imperfect study. Geography, taught in connection with the history of the earth and of man on the earth, is one of the most important of studies for Englishmen of all classes. You could give, of course, only a very general training in geography thus interpreted in elementary schools; but a good foundation might be laid which could easily be built upon in future years. Grammar is, however, quite out of place as an obligatory extra subject. The little grammar which is a necessary part of elementary education should be taught through writing and speaking the English tongue; and for the grammar now taught as an extra subject should be substituted, if there are to be obligatory extra subjects, some subject to be chosen at will from the various sciences which educate the observing faculties. Probably, however, it might be better to have no obligatory extra sub-

  1071
  jects at all, but to allow school managers to select freely out of the extensive list authorized by the Privy Council any two extra subjects in which they felt themselves most competent to get instruction for their schools. Some mistakes would be made, no doubt; but the risk of a few mistakes would be more than compensated for by the greater zeal which school managers and teachers would put into their work if they were left a little more liberty.
  MR. GOLDNEYsaid, the amount which the Department were authorized to spend in pensions amounted to £6,500, while they had only granted allowances to 96 pensioners, amounting to one-third of the money authorized to be so employed. Instead, therefore, of carrying out what had plainly been the wish of Parliament, the Education Department had restricted the grant to about one-third of what had been intended. The Department had, however, originally contemplated the grant of the whole of these pensions.
  MR. RATHBONEsaid, that in the North of England the greatest interest was taken in the cookery lessons, and that from such small experiments as had been made the greatest benefit would be derived from promoting instruction in domestic economy in the public elementary schools. He should like to call attention to the injustice sometimes done to elementary schools and their teachers when examined by an Inspector who had no previous experience; and if it had been possible, it was his intention to move "That it is desirable to provide for preliminary training of Her Majesty' s Inspectors of Schools." It was almost incredible that when so much of the efficiency of the schools depended on the efficiency of the inspection, an examination of the school should be left to a young man fresh from College, who had received no preliminary training for the work he had to do. He knew nothing of what a child could or ought to do, and was likely either to frighten the children by his strictness or injure the school by his laxity. He believed that a young Inspector went round with the Senior Inspector of his district for a month or six weeks, and that his Reports for a certain period passed through the hands of that Inspector. When, however, a young man intended to be a doctor, a lawyer, or a merchant, he was
  1072
  placed for some time—usually for some years—in an office where he could learn his profession. The remedy was very simple. The Education Department appointed eight or ten Inspectors every year. Why should not the President of the Council take the best eight or ten men in his list and appoint them a year before he wanted them? They could then be attached to the best Inspectors, and accompany them in their inspection. In that year they would obtain a better knowledge of the facts and methods of teaching than they would find out by their own efforts in eight or ten years. The whole cost of the proposal, if they gave those gentlemen £250 each, would amount to £2,500; and for that small expenditure they would have a set of Inspectors who, before they went to inspect schools and to decide upon the grants, would have some practical knowledge of the work they had to do. Another evil which required correction arose from the Inspectors varying very much in their standard of merit in different schools. The 10 head Inspectors to whom the training of the other Inspectors should be given, might meet together to exchange their experience; and in that way the inequality in the decisions of Inspectors might be diminished, discontent would be removed, and more heart infused into the work of the schools.

  THE EXPENDITURE ON ELEMENTARY EDUCATION.—OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. CHAMBERLAINrose to call attention to the results of the increased expenditure on elementary education, and to the great difference still existing between the average attendance of children and the numbers who ought to be at school. Before doing so, he heartily endorsed what had fallen from the hon. Member for Maidstone (Sir John Lubbock), thinking it was desirable to give some discretion to local authorities in order to prevent our system of education from becoming too stereotyped, from turning out all the children with minds cast too much in one mould. He also cordially supported the suggestion of the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Leveson Gower), although his own experience did not make him so sanguine as that hon. Gentleman appeared to be. As to the subject to which he himself

  1073
  wished to call attention, he thought the facts detailed in the Report of the Education Department as to the progress of education were, on the whole, such as must generally fill with satisfaction the mind of every friend of education in the country. In little less than seven years they had increased the accommodation for elementary teaching by 1,500,000 places, and the attendance had increased in about the same proportion. There were still some blots in the picture, but he hoped that in course of time they would be removed. It was to be regretted that the outcome of the instruction given to the immense number of children now on the registry of our schools was as yet so small. Only about 2,000,000 out of 4,500,000 who ought to be at school were in average attendance, and that again was reduced to about 1,000,000 of children presented for examination, of whom only about two-thirds passed completely in any of the standards, while comparatively few were able to pass the sixth standard of education, even at the age of 13. The new system, however, was as yet only in its infancy, and had scarcely had a sufficient trial. At all events, we were on the right track, and better results were to be hoped for in the future. The present expenditure for education was very large, a larger sum having been asked for this year than had ever been asked for by any Minister of Education before, while there was no reason to believe that the amount had yet reached its maximum. Was that a matter for regret or for dissatisfaction? It was proved in the case of the school boards that the nation had taken in hand this work of national instruction and had counted the cost, and was ready to pay whatever was necessary for the purpose. Those who criticized this expenditure had to ask themselves, not what was the present amount, or to what amount it was likely to reach, but whether the work could properly be done for less. On the education of our people our position as a great commercial nation having to compete with other and more instructed countries depended. Since 1871 the expenditure on education had increased from nearly £2,000,000 to £4,200,000, or 114 per cent. The average cost of education for England and Wales was something like 3s. 4d. per head of the population, of which 2s.
  1074
  came out of rates and taxes; while in some of the Swiss Cantons the average was 6s. per head. Those spent most econominally and wisely who spent most. It was really a commercial investment, to put it on no higher ground, as it brought very large returns in the reduced cost of pauperism and crime, and the increased welfare and prosperity of the country. In the New England States only 7 per cent of the persons above 10 years of age were unable to read and write, and that uninstructed 7 per cent actually furnished 80 per cent of the whole convicted criminals in those States. In this country, while the school accommodation had increased 70 per cent since 1871, the average attendance had increased only 62 per cent. It took several years before the new schools could be got into good working order, and therefore they could not arrive at their fair normal average expenditure until they had been in operation for several years. The average cost of education had increased in the case of the voluntary as well as in that of the board schools, and on the average it had been greater in the latter than in the former case. That difference was due to two causes, one temporary and the other permanent. The temporary cause was the necessity at the outset of providing stationary and educational implements, while the permanent cause was the increased teaching staff. The wisdom of the increased expenditure was shown by the results. Returns showed that in 1871 the number of children who passed the examination in the board schools was 11 per cent below the average number of those who passed in the Church schools; whereas now the number of children who passed in the board schools was 4½ per cent above the number of those who passed in the Church schools. He had no doubt that in the future the results would be still more remarkable. He thought when the board schools had fairly outstripped all competitors, it would become a question worthy the consideration of the House whether we could with propriety continue to make enormous grants of public money for institutions which to a certain extent were managed by irresponsible persons, and which he believed were comparatively inefficient for the purposes for which that money was granted. He knew not a way in which

  1075
  that expenditure could be diminished, but he did know a way in which the results might be very greatly increased. The empty places in the board schools might be filled within three months if it were not for our adherence to a system which almost every other nation that took an interest in the subject of education had abandoned. He was well aware that objections might be taken to the general establishment of free schools. He would not answer those objections now; but he hoped that in a future Session a discussion would take place on the whole matter. If, however, those objections could be got over—objections as to the supposed interference of the system with the independence of the parent and his personal responsibility— he believed the result would be an enormous increase of the educational work that was now being done without an additional penny of cost, the cost being merely distributed in a different way. The experiment had already been so far made in this country. In Birmingham the school board had gone as far as the Education Department would permit, reducing the fee from 3d. to 1d. per head per week; and the amount received in pennies, as compared with that formerly received with three penny pieces, was more than trebled, the average attendance having correspondingly increased. Even the small fee of a penny had been proved to be a barrier to the regular and universal attendance of the children at school. In our Colony of Victoria the average attendance of children at school increased from 135,000 to 206,000 in two years after the abolition of fees. In the United States of America every elementary school was free at the present time. The Report of the Board of Education showed that all the States were unanimous in saying that the abolition of fees was followed in every case by an immediate increase in the average attendance. In our Colony of Canada, where all the schools were free, compulsion had been found to be absolutely unnecessary. He trusted that the House would at no distant day see the desirability of giving effect to a system which had produced such good results in every instance where it had been tried.
  VISCOUNT SANDON,referring to the proposal of the hon. Baronet the Member for Maidstone (Sir John Lubbock),
  1076
  said, the hon. Baronet had a devoted attachment to scientific subjects, and naturally thought it was of great importance that science should be taught in schools. But there was a considerable difference of opinion in the House on that subject. In the course which the Education Department had taken on that subject they were supported by the approval of a large number of the Inspectors. They found that history, geography, and grammar were subjects that were popular in the country. He cordially agreed with the hon. Member for the Elgin Burghs, (Mr. Grant Duff), that children should have a knowledge of geography and of the history of the land to which they belonged. As to grammar, many of the Inspectors regarded it as about the best exercise for children's minds. He quite agreed that useful changes might hereafter be made in the Code, but he believed that frequent changes in the regular curriculum of the instruction of the children were very much to be deprecated. With regard to the point referred to by the hon. Member for Bodmin (Mr. Leveson Gower), the hon. Member was fully aware that the Education Department attached great importance to domestic economy, because they believed that if they could teach the future wives of our artizans the art of simple and good cookery they would be doing a great deal towards making their homes comfortable and happy. The fact, however, had been rather overlooked that all the Training Colleges could at the present time appoint teachers of cookery if they chose, and indeed he was rather surprised that more of such teachers were not appointed. The appointment of these teachers of cookery in the Training Colleges was the most hopeful and practicable method of promoting the teaching of that very necessary branch of domestic economy, because the cost of bringing 800 young women up to London for the purpose of their being instructed in it would be very great, he having been assured upon good authority that the expense of three months' training in London would amount to £35 per head. He was glad to say that the school boards were taking up the subject warmly, and he would specially mention that the Board of Sheffield fitted up a separate room in their schools with an artizan's grate, so that cookery should be taught with the simple ap-

  1077
  pliances available in an artizan's home. The movement was a tentative one, but the country approved it, and he could assure the hon. Member that the Education Department was not losing sight of it. The next point referred to was that relating to the pensions of teachers, which had been noticed by the noble Lord the Member for Bury St. Edmunds (Lord Francis Hervey), it having already been brought before him by the hon. Member for Plymouth (Mr. Bates). This was a subject which had been looked at with great care; but it must be remembered that the Committee of the House of Commons which sat a few years ago to consider this matter had reported to the Committee of Education to the following effect:—
  "Some of the witnesses have informed your Committee that many teachers have regarded these Minutes as a promise of pensions to all teachers who fulfilled the conditions therein laid down. Your Committee are, however, of opinion that these Minutes of 1846 were not intended to hold out any such promise, but that their true construction is that which is put on them by the Minutes of the 6th of August, 1851, and the Circular Letter of October, 1851—namely, that the Committee of Council on Education took power, but did not pledge themselves to grant pensions. Suggestions have been made to your Committee for superannuation schemes, not only in the interests of teachers, but on grounds of public policy, which they think worthy of further consideration; though they are not prepared, on the evidence which they have been able to take, to express any opinion upon them."
  The Government, however, looked at the matter from an equitable point of view, and had had great satisfaction in providing for pensions to a considerable number of teachers who had entered the profession before they were formally abolished; and he believed this step had given much pleasure to the House and the country. Great complaint had been made that the Government required as a condition precedent to the granting of a pension that the teacher must have been employed in a school until the moment when he applied for a pension, and must have been serving continuously as a teacher. He wished to know how, if the applicant had ceased to be a teacher, and had not served continuously in that employment, the Department could ascertain what his merits were? The old Minutes laid down very clearly that pensions were only to be given in certain cases where favourable re-
  1078
  ports were given by the Inspector and by the trustees and managers of the schools as to the character and conduct of the applicants, and as to the manner in which they managed their schools, and it would be impossible for the Department to obtain that information if the applicants had ceased to be teachers. The complaint was also made that all the sum granted by Parliament was not now allotted by the Department; but the whole £6,000 a-year which Parliament granted for that purpose was not allotted at the present moment, partly because it was kept back for the relief of very needy cases which were certain to be brought under their notice hereafter, and partly because there had not been more applicants. He might mention that the Department had only refused relief to nine applicants other than those who were unable to prove that they had served continuously. The subject, however, would receive the attention of the Department, as, he need hardly assure the Committee, they wished to do their best to relieve the very sad cases which were brought under their notice; but, unfortunately, they were obliged to draw the line somewhere, and he could not say that he saw his way at present to alter the course the Department had, after much consideration, adopted. The hon. Member for Liverpool (Mr. Rath-bone) had raised a question with regard to the Inspectors; and if he would permit the matter to rest for the present he would lay the hon. Member's views before the President of the Council, who was chiefly concerned with those officials, and if the Department could see their way to meeting those views he was satisfied they would be most ready to do so, feeling, as they did, the necessity for securing the services in that capacity of a high class of men. The variation of the standards, he admitted, ought to be narrowly looked into, and that also was a point that had not been overlooked by the Department. The hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Chamberlain) had touched upon a very large question, that of free education; but probably he would agree with him that it was impossible to enter upon so wide a subject at the present moment. He was glad, however, that the hon. Member had come forward to defend the expenditure upon education; the money devoted to the purpose was not

  1079
  misspent, and would produce ample results hereafter. He also coincided in the view of the hon. Member that we could not be fully satisfied with the advantage that was taken of our school machinery; but he had a great confidence, from accounts which reached him from various parts of the country, that much better results would follow from the working of the Act of last Session, which would undoubtedly tend to increase the school attendance; but for all these changes and improvements time was needed. In conclusion, he could assure hon. Members that their suggestions would receive his best attention.
  MR. LYON PLAYFAIRsaid, he did not intend to stand between the House and the statement of the noble Lord, and he only wished to explain one circumstance—namely, the absence of the hon. Baronet the Member for Lanarkshire (Sir Edward Colebrooke). An accident had unfortunately prevented him from bringing on the subject of which he had given Notice, and which was of great interest to Scotland. It was the necessity of legislating on the subject of educational endowments in Scotland. He desired to say that in not bringing this subject forward that day they did not abandon their intention of drawing the attention of the Vice President of the Council to it, and that when the Scotch Estimates came on, if his hon. Friend was not sufficiently recovered to bring forward the question, he would take his place on that occasion.
  Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.

SUPPLY—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
(In the Committee.)

SUPPLY—CIVIL SERVICE ESTIMATES.

  CLASS IV.—EDUCATION, SCIENCE, AND ART.
  (1.) £1,260,829, to complete the sum for Public Education, England and Wales.
  VISCOUNT SANDON,in moving the Education Vote for England and Wales, adverted to the loss which the cause of Education and the country at large had sustained through the death of Sir James Kay-Shuttleworth, who was well known
  1080
  as one of the founders of our present system of education. Having spent a considerable time in investigating the educational condition of this country, he pursued his investigations into the education of foreign countries, and, having acquired a vast amount of information on the subject, he took office as Secretary to the Committee of Council on Education as long since as 1839, and afterwards, in conjunction with Mr. E. Tuffnell, established the first normal training school at Battersea, at a cost to themselves of £750 per annum. Prom this course of action arose the great group of normal schools which had played so important a part in our educational system. To Sir James Kay-Shuttleworth the country was indebted to a great extent for the leading Minutes which had governed the action of the Education Department for many years past. After 10 years of service Sir James resigned his post; but down to the day of his death almost, his valuable counsels were always freely given to the Education Department, and he could not himself forget the ready kindness with which he placed his large experience at his disposal, on various occasions, when he had consulted him on some of the many important educational changes, which had been made since the present Government had been in office. The zeal, judgment, and discretion of Sir James Kay-Shuttleworth had effected much for the cause of education, and it would be most unbecoming in the State to forget the services which he had rendered. He hoped the House would also join him in expressing the regret which all must feel at the death of Miss Mary Carpenter, who had also rendered great service to the State by the work she did in connection with reformatory schools and other institutions of a similar character: he, himself, had been greatly indebted to her for the aid she gave him respecting day industrial schools, of which she must justly be considered the founder. The nation was deeply indebted to both: and thanks were as rightly due to them as to the successful general. It would be observed that the total amount of the Education Vote for England and Wales in the year was £1,910,000, or an increase of £203,774 upon the Estimate for last year. This increase had arisen from several causes. For instance, there had been appointed five additional Inspectors

  1081
  and 13 assistant Inspectors; furthermore, there had been a slight increase in the cost of the Training Colleges, owing to increased cost of living and the addition of a few students; while £2,000 was added by the cost of honour certificates. The main difference, however, between the cost of the two years had been caused by the increase in the annual grants, which had amounted to no less than £187,000. During the year the number of public elementary schools had been raised to 14,273, or an increase of 1,056, the accommodation afforded being now sufficient for 3,426,000, an increase of 280,000 upon the preceding year. This would be a sufficient supply for the educational wants of the whole country if the schools were in the right places; but, unfortunately, this was not so. In some districts there was a surplus of accommodation, while in others the schools were not so placed as to be most readily available for the purposes of education. It would, therefore, be necessary to increase the number of schools in some quarters; but this would not be done to a greater extent than was absolutely necessary. Since last year 460 new board schools, giving accommodation for 170,000 additional children, had been established, while in the same period the number of voluntary schools had been increased by 580, giving 110,000 additional seats. The voluntary subscriptions to Church of England schools had increased during the 'year by £63,817, and the number of subscribers by 14,874; to British and Wesleyan schools the increase in the subscriptions was £5,097, and in the subscribers 39; while to Roman Catholic schools the amount of subscriptions had increased by £6,202, and the number of subscribers had decreased by 518. The position, therefore, was that since 1870 there had been established 1,600 board schools—including 600 voluntary schools transferred to the boards—which gave accommodation to 556,000 children; that in the same period there had been established 5,000 voluntary public and elementary schools, affording seats for 1,100,000 additional children. The present state of the case was therefore that rather more than 500,000 seats had been provided by the boards at a cost of £4,427,000, and a little less than 3,000,000 seats had been provided by voluntary effort on an outlay of about
  1082
  £13,000,000, supplemented by the Government grant amounting to £1,750,000, so that the total capital expended by the country on education was something like £19,000,000. There could be no need, therefore, he thought, for the country to blush as to the amount of work it had done in reference to the great work of education. With regard to the number of teachers, there had been an increase during the year of 2,100 certificated teachers, 460 assistant teachers, 2,600 pupil teachers, and 32 in Training Colleges. As far as the attendances of children were concerned, there had been an increase of 200,000 on the books and 150,000 in average attendance. It was satisfactory to know that 170,000 additional children, as compared with the preceding year, had made sufficient attendances to entitle them to Government grants. With regard to the work done by the children, he could have wished that more had been presented for examination in the higher standards; but he thought the fact as it stood was accounted for by the circumstance that the system was comparatively new, and had not as yet become thoroughly organized. He was confirmed in this view by the case of Scotland, a country which had had a much longer experience of compulsory elementary education than England. While in England 87 per cent of the children submitted for examination passed in reading, the percentage was 94 in Scotland. As far as writing was concerned, the percentage was 79 in England and 88 in Scotland, the proportions in reference to arithmetic being 70 per cent in England and 81 in Scotland. These results, he took it, were due to the more lengthy experience of Scotland as compared with England. With regard to the school boards and by-laws, he found that in England out of 202 boroughs 108 had boards, that 15 out of 21 boroughs in Wales were in a similar position, and that of 14,094 civil parishes in England and Wales 1,965 parishes in England had boards and 381 in Wales, making a total of 2,346, such boards covering a population of 12,829,000. Furthermore, by-laws had been passed for 11,221,000 out of a population of 22,700,000. As far as the cost of the education of the children was concerned, he found by comparison between England and Scotland that the expenditure per child in

  1083
  all schools, hoard and voluntary, was £1 13 s. 4¼d. per head per annum in England and £1 16 s. 11 d. in Scotland. The rate for education in England amounted to 3s. 9½d.; in Scotland, to 10 s. 2d. The Imperial grant in England was 11 s. 8d.; in Scotland, it was 11 s. 10 d. It was worthy of notice that where the voluntary contributions went down there the rates went very largely up. He had a few words to add as to the operation of the new Act. It was, of course, impossible to judge as to its ultimate working, and he did not think that he was the proper person to pass judgment upon it. He might, however, state that out of 106 boroughs which had not school boards 103 had appointed school attendance committees which had shown great zeal in seeing that the children attended school. While of 587 Boards of Guardians, 412 had appointed school attendance committees. So far as he could judge, the Boards of Guardians as well as the Town Councils were throwing themselves into the work with earnestness. Then as to the power which the Act conferred on school boards to fill up by vacancies without popular elections—that provision was working satisfactorily. Much turmoil had been avoided and great judgment had been shown in filling up the vacancies so as to represent the mind of the electors. With respect to compulsion, he saw that some Boards of Guardians were discussing the question whether they had power to compel the attendance of children at school. He could only say that very serious results might follow their not doing so. He did not wish to press the matter, desiring rather to leave it to voluntary effort; and would only say that there was a certain section of the Act of which the Education Department could avail themselves if it were found necessary to do so; and he need hardly assure the Committee that they would not permit any neglect of the provisions of the Act. He rejoiced to observe the very satisfactory rivalry which existed in many quarters between the voluntary and the board schools. Everything seemed to point to this—that people were giving themselves to the great work of seeing that the children of the country had good schools, and that in those schools they were well taught, and had all the benefits and advantages which Parliament intended to secure to them.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, he hoped the noble Lord would be able to take the Vote at that Sitting. The noble Lord's statement must be satisfactory to every hon. Member present; and from the Report that had been published they had every reason to be hopeful about the progress of this great work, for they had now nearly got to the end of the great job they had undertaken of providing school accommodation for the masses. They were getting the constant attendance of the children, though there was still a great want of regular attendance. He regarded with satisfaction the comparison between the number of children present at examinations and the average number in attendance. Comparing last year with 1870— the year Before the Act passed—the increase in the one was 68 per cent and in the other 72 per cent. He was glad the noble Lord had reminded Boards of Guardians that they had power under the Act of last year to compel the attendance of children at school. The noble Lord had spoken of the larger amount received from rates in Scotland than in England, and he said that as the rates went up subscriptions went down. The two countries could not, however, fairly be compared, as a rate system prevailed universally in Scotland and subscriptions were only obtained in special cases; but in Scotland, where the educational results were not worse but rather better than in England, the parent paid rather more than was paid in England. It was a great mistake to suppose that the cost of education weighed heavily upon the poor of this country. The contrary was the fact. He hoped the noble Lord would now be enabled to obtain his Vote.
  Vote agreed to.
  (2.) £224,689, to complete the sum for the Science and Art Department, agreed to.
  Resolutions to be reported.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a sum, not exceeding £288,782, he granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray the Charge which will come in course of payment during the year ending on the 31st day of March 1878, for Public Education in Scotland."
  MR. LYON PLAYFAIRobjected that the Vote could not be properly

  1085
  considered at so late an hour. He moved to report Progress.
  Motion agreed to.
  Resolutions to be reported To-morrow;
  Committee also report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

PUBLIC HEALTH (IRELAND) BILL.
(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, Mr. Attorney General for Ireland.)
PUBLIC HEALTH (IRELAND) BILL.

  [BILL 116.] SECOND READING.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  CAPTAIN NOLANasked if there was any arrangement for referring the Bill to a Select Committee; and, if so, would the Committee consist mainly of Irish Members?
  THE ATTORNEY GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. GIBSON)said, he was not aware of any arrangement. The Government were willing to submit the Bill to the consideration of a Select Committee, and upon that Committee, of course, the feelings and wishes of hon. Members from Ireland would be consulted.
  Bill read a second time, and committed to a Select Committee.
  The House suspended its Sitting at ten minutes to Seven of the clock.
  The House resumed its Sitting at Nine of the clock.

INDIA TARIFF—IMPORT DUTIES ON COTTON MANUFACTURES.

  RESOLUTION.
  MR. BIRLEYrose to call attention to the East Indian Tariff, particularly in relation to the duties upon Cotton Manufactures; and to move—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, the duties now levied upon Cotton Manufactures imported into India, being protective in their nature, are contrary to sound commercial policy and ought to be repealed without delay."
  Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members being found present,
  MR. BIRLEYsaid, that there was a great principle involved in the question which he had to submit to the consideration of the House. For the last 30 years free trade had been accepted in this country as the basis of our commercial legislation, and most thinking men now considered that it was the only policy which was worthy of a great commercial country. The question might, in fact, be taken as settled, so far as this country was concerned, and they lectured foreign countries and remonstrated with the Colonies, where they showed protectionist proclivities. But when they came to apply the principle of free trade to India they were met with the cry that they ought to legislate for the interests of India; but it would be difficult for those who took the protectionist view to prove that protection would conduce to the true interests of that country, or that the people of India should have the cost of clothing increased by a tax upon articles of clothing. He maintained that it would be well for this country to hold forth the standard of free trade, and not to have one policy for England and another for India, and so appear to justify foreign countries and the Colonies in upholding protective duties. There was no real antagonism between the two countries. Lancashire was the best customer that India had, and if Lancashire suffered India suffered also. The argument used by the upholders of the present system was twofold—first, that practically there was no protection in India; and, secondly, that the duties now levied on cotton imports could not possibly be spared. It was contended that India was pre-eminent in the production of coarse cotton goods, and that Lancashire excelled in those of finer quality, that each had its own sphere, and that the reasons for interfering with the present state of things were really too trifling to be taken into account. The fact, however, was that Lancashire exported a considerable quantity of coarse cotton goods to India 20 years ago; but those exports had been declining for some time in consequence, as he alleged, of those protective duties. Those goods were made mainly from Indian cotton, in which the Native manufacturer had considerable advantage over the English, in addition to the protective duty which turned the scale against the English manufacturer. Adam

  1087
  Smith, in his Wealth of Nations, said that in manufactures a very small advantage would enable the foreigner to undersell our own productions, even in the home market. Now, he maintained that 5 per cent was a very considerable enhancement of the cost of an article, and was not immaterial, as some people seemed to imagine. In the case of an ordinary piece of shirting, such as was usually exported to India, half the cost was due to the raw material, one-fourth to the wages of labour, and one-fourth to other expenses. The Indian mills had the advantage of near access to the raw material, together with a very great saving in the wages of labour, which in India were very low as compared with those paid in England. Moreover, the operatives in India worked very much longer hours than the operatives of Lancashire did, and also worked a greater number of days in the year. It might be said that the number of spindles in India was much smaller than that in Lancashire; but the proportion in India, as compared with Lancashire, was now, through competition, much larger than it was even two or three years ago. Again, the immense improvements which had been made in machinery could now be quickly introduced into India. It was argued that, though the coarse goods made in India might largely supersede those of the same kind made in England, yet the English manufacturer could rely on maintaining his pre-eminence in the manufacture of the finer kinds of yarn. That, however, he believed to be an entire fallacy; and as the Indian manufacturers could make the higher qualities of yarn they would, having already taken away a large part of the English trade, succeed in taking away also a half or a third of that which still remained. No one would question the immense importance of the trade between India and England, which was not to be measured by the mere export and import tables. All the different agencies, the carrying trade, the ramifications of various kinds connected with it, perhaps equalled in magnitude the direct traffic itself; and if we were to lose our trade with India we should lose a most important branch of our commerce. He now came to what was perhaps the most important point of all, the financial question. It was said that the financial equilibrium in India must be main-
  1088
  tained, and that they must not lay oppressive taxes on the people of India. His firm conviction was that it was not necessary to imperil the financial equilibrium of India, or impose oppressive taxes on the people. He had the honour of sitting for three or four years on the Indian Finance Committee of that House, and he then came to the conviction that, while they had reason to be grateful for the care taken to adjust the finances of India, still much remained to be done. They had seen also from the Budget speech of Sir John Strachey last March, and from the statement of the noble Lord (Lord George Hamilton), that the Indian Government was addressing itself resolutely to that question. The subject of the salt duties, especially with regard to distribution, deserved the attention of the Government. Our internal duties in India should be repealed; for how could we lecture Native States about their transit duties if we neglected to abolish our internal duties? He looked to improved means of transit for the prosperity of India. Railways would prove the means of vast improvement in India, and would enable them to cope with those terrible famines which arose from time to time. With regard to the depreciation of silver, there was great hope that the United States would adopt a double currency, and if they did so the difficulty with regard to silver would disappear. With respect to extraordinary works, they were henceforth to be enabled to see what they cost, the expenditure upon them being treated as capital laid out for the improvement of the country. Those works ought not to be undertaken unless they could be shown to be of pressing necessity or likely to yield a good return. Though much remained to be done to simplify and improve the finances of India, they ought not to take a gloomy view of those finances. Sir John Strachey had shown that the ordinary revenue of India had improved within the last five years by about £2,000,000. Then the ordinary expenditure was not increasing—a most favourable circumstance. Many might think that ordinary expenditure might be further reduced. That was a point on which he gave no opinion further than that the matter was one which required to be carefully and resolutely looked at every year and every month. The hon. and gallant Member for Kin-

  1089
  cardine (Sir George Balfour) had given Notice of an Amendment which seemed to imply that this country should, out of the Consolidated Fund, provide £2,000,000 per annum to enable the Indian Government to abolish its Custom duties, and also that that House should abolish the duty on tea and other products of India; but he (Mr. Birley) did not think that this was the time to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer for such a sum. Then there was the Amendment of the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell), which was that it was not possible, in the present condition of the finances of India, to abandon the greater part of the import duties without an extensive re-adjustment of the financial system, and a fair consideration of other claims to remission of taxation. Well, that was what he (Mr. Birley) ventured to controvert. This was a matter of pressing necessity, and it was not desirable to maintain a course of irritation between their manufacturing population and the people of India. The hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett) proposed to get rid of the subject by moving the "Previous Question;" but they had a right to expect that the Government would give its opinion on this question. The Amendment of the noble Lord the Member for Middlesex (Lord George Hamilton) was the most reasonable of all that had been placed upon the Paper; but he (Mr. Birley) looked upon it with considerable suspicion, because, although it was reasonable enough in its terms, it appeared to give an opening to whoever might be the rulers of India to procrastinate. No one would expect, if the Motion were carried, that immediate directions would be given for the abolition of these duties; but the work, however difficult, was one that must be set about at once, and it should be understood both in this country and in India that the manufacturers of India were no longer to look for protection. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his Resolution.
  MR. JACOB BRIGHT,in seconding the Motion, said, the question had been so much discussed both inside and outside of that House that those interested in the abolition of the duties were perfectly aware that they had many and powerful opponents. They were assailed in various ways. Some men denied that there was any importance attaching to the matter,
  1090
  and said that the supporters of this Motion were the victims of a delusion. If so, the delusion was one of a very unusual character, for, unlike other delusions, it grew by discussion; it took possession, not of the ignorant, but of men of every rank of life and of every degree of intelligence—from one of the ablest of Her Majesty's Secretaries of State down to the humblest artizans. There were others who admitted the importance of the question, but who told the abolitionists that they were pursuing a selfish object without regard to the interests of India. ["Hear, hear!"] Hon. Members cheered that statement; but the men of the Northern Counties who were interested in the question said they only asked for justice. They asked for a fair field and no favour. They were willing to bear with competition, not only with Indian manufactures, but with those of every other country, provided they were put on equal terms. They maintained that wherever the legislative authority of the British Government extended, there should be no protective duties, but that every manufacture should stand on its own merits, and they asserted that these duties were injurious and dangerous to England and India alike. He would ask, was there any hon. Member who would deny that these duties were injurious to England, or that they limited the work of the labouring man and affected his wages? They could not be raised except in the most wasteful way, because they imposed a double tax—a tax in favour of the Exchequer and another in favour of a protected class. If he represented in that House not a Lancashire constituency, but an Indian constituency, he should be quite as much opposed to these duties as he was at the present moment; and he should oppose them mainly on the ground that they went to create a protected class in India, a class essentially selfish, and whose interests were always opposed to those of the rest of the community. They had only to continue this protection long enough in order to make this class powerful; and they knew from experience that such a class often became so powerful that the Government itself was unable to prevail against it. How far the appetite for protection had already grown in India might be shown by a remark made by Lord Lawrence in the House of Lords last year. He said

  1091
  that these duties were not objected to by the people of India, but that on the other hand they would prefer that they should be quadrupled in the interests of their own manufactures. It was said that the official class in India—the Civil Service there—were already investing their spare money in the protected mills. This being so, it was evident that we might soon have a powerful body in India that would be most difficult to deal with. But he would here say a word as to the importance of English interests. Of our total exports of cotton, yarn, and cloth, we sent one-fourth to India; we sent, in fact, more to India than to the whole Continent of Europe. Was this a trade which was so secure that we could afford by deliberate legislation to assist in its decline? There were men outside that House like Mr. Jackson, of Blackburn, who had long studied the question, and who maintained that the advantages of India were so great that a time would come when she would to a large extent manufacture her own goods, leaving England with a losing trade. He found that in the five years ending 1874 we exported 60 per cent less goods to India than we did in the five years ending 1856—that in the Bombay Presidency there were, in 1871, only 11 factories, whilst in the year 1875 there were 41. In 1870 India imported from England machinery to the amount of £300,000, while in 1875 the value of the machinery so imported was £1,500,000. This showed how much the trade had extended in India, owing, in part, to the system of protection. But it would perhaps be said that although the export of coarse goods to India had very much declined the exports of the finer fabrics had greatly increased. This was true. In shirtings we had had a great increase of exports to India; but the manufacturers in India having succeeded so well in making the coarser fabrics we had been accustomed to send them, had now begun, we were told, successfully, to manufacture the finer fabrics. Well, if this went on long enough we should find that there would in time be the same falling off in the finer as there had been in the coarser fabrics. He asked the House to remember how cheap labour was in India. In that country there was no interference with the hours of labour. They might work seven days a-week if they liked,
  1092
  and for as many hours a day as they chose. Besides, India grew her own cotton, while in our case it had to come 5,000 miles in the first instance, then to go back the same distance, in order to get into the Indian market. Again, India imported her machinery free of duty. She had iron and coal of her own; and although it might be that the development of these products was only in its infancy, we knew what would come in this direction sooner or later. Some people were accustomed to say that the 5 per cent duty was a mere bagatelle; but it should be remembered that every factory in Lancashire or elsewhere which sent £100,000 worth of cotton goods to India every year had to pay £5,000 per annum before those goods could enter that country. Was this, he asked, a matter of no moment? His hon. Friend (Mr. Birley) had shown how a moderate duty was influential in retarding or expanding the mercantile trade of a country. The House should remember that we were now about to renew our Commercial Treaty with France. There was great hope on the part of the mercantile community that we might have a more favourable Treaty than the last. The Chambers of Commerce throughout the Kingdom would strain every nerve even to reduce the duties on goods going from this country to France by 5 per cent; and if Her Majesty'8 Government did not do all that lay in its power to aid them in procuring this result, it must expect to meet with the greatest condemnation. But it seemed to him to be a ludicrous thing, after all the effort that was being made here to reduce the duties on goods entering France, that we should be careless about the duty on goods entering India. Some men said this was simply an affair of the rich spinners of the North of England. He said it was much more the affair of the working men, for the rich spinners could transfer their capital, if need were, to India. Capital did not consider climate; but the workpeople had to consider that matter, and those who worked for wages in England could not follow the capital which had already gone, and which might go in still larger proportions in future to India. The question was sometimes asked—Of what good was the possession of India to this country? Well, first of all there was the glory of its possession; there

  1093
  was the occasion it gave of conveying to a lower, the benefits of a higher civilization; there was the fact that thousands of our people had been enabled to live in affluence in its Civil and Military Services, and there was a belief that our trade with India was more secure than it could be if India were in other hands. This last consideration had great weight with practical minds. The security of our commerce should not be treated with indifference by a House which represented a people, millions of whom could only live by the exchange of their pro-duets with other countries. It would be admitted that if the trade between this country and India were to decline, the bonds between the two greatest portions of our great Empire would be less strong. They were told that they should be just to India. He was there to assert that those whom he represented in the manufacturing districts of the North of England were as anxious to be just to India as any other portion of the Kingdom could be; but they should also be just to England. The operatives of the North had enough political intelligence to know that the possession of India implied some perils in the future, and was not unattended by pecuniary burdens upon the people. The Crimean War was understood to be fought for India. English interests, we heard so much of at the present time in the East of Europe, had reference to India; and when the Army and Navy Estimates showed a large increase year by year, and the Government was challenged on the subject, the Secretary of State for War stood up in his place, looked round the globe, and dwelt upon our great responsibilities and our vast Empire. Did anyone suppose that in his survey of this vast Empire India was left out of his consideration? With the inevitable burdens we demanded such advantages as could be had without injury to our Eastern fellow-subjects A little while ago we gave £4,000,000 for shares in the Suez Canal. What was the wisdom of giving a great amount with one hand to provide a safe channel to India, while, with the other, we pursued a policy that lessened the freightage which went through that channel? But we were asked, where was the money to come from for the remission of these duties? In answering that question he would not enter into the perplexing subject of
  1094
  Indian finance—a subject which seemed to become more obscure the more it was discussed, seeing that though it was a question of fact, men of equal authority in that House took the most opposite views in regard to it. The case before us was simply this. In a country with a revenue of over £50,000,000 we were in want of the comparatively trifling sum of £800,000. He thought that nothing was more likely to bring our statesmanship into contempt among the working class than to tell them that this sum could only be raised by a protective duty, which tended to starve the people at home, which was the most wasteful of all taxes, and which bred and sustained one of the greatest curses of modern times—namely, a protected class. If this House would by a decisive vote strengthen the hands of Lord Salisbury, he, with his great ability and energy, would soon find a way out of the difficulty. He would soon give free trade with regard to these goods between England and India, and a question of an irritating and unfortunate kind would at length be set at rest.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That, in the opinion of this House, the Duties now levied upon Cotton Manufactures imported into India, being protective in their nature, are contrary to sound commercial policy, and ought to be repealed without delay."—(Mr. Birley.)
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELL,in rising to move the following Amendment:—
  "That in the present condition of the finances of India, it is not possible to abandon the greater part of the Import Duties without an extensive re-adjustment of the financial system, and a fair consideration of other claims to remission of taxation,"
  said, he felt that anyone who undertook to discuss the subject with a view of doing justice to India had a somewhat uphill task. The Government was very much pledged to the repeal of the cotton duties, and had thereby gained a great amount of popularity in Lancashire. And if he was rightly informed, those who represented the Opposition on the Front Bench, and who were now conspicuous by their absence, were also inclined to support that view of the case which would, meet with the approval of Lancashire. That being the case, he felt that anyone in his humble position who undertook to plead the view of cau-

  1095
  tion in this matter required somewhat of the indulgence of the House. By all means let them remove the duties if they could, but let them find the money before doing so. His hon. Friends who had spoken had said, in somewhat vague terms, that the money might be saved somehow; but they had not taken upon themselves to show how it was to be done. He did not believe any independent ruler of India, whether Native or European, would remit these duties. They were not in their origin of a protective character; like those imposed for avowedly protective purposes in the United States and several of our own Colonies. They were small in amount, in no case exceeding 5 per cent, and the small amount of protection they afforded was only incidental. They fell mainly not upon the poor, but upon the middle and upper classes of India. The question resolved itself into this—that not only were the cotton duties to be sacrificed, but the whole of the import duties would also have to be abandoned; because the cotton duties were two-thirds of the whole, and of the remainder many other articles had equal claims. If this Motion were agreed to we must necessarily have unrestricted free trade in India. They were asked to sacrifice these duties on the very highest free trade principles. He admitted that under certain circumstances free trade was a very good thing; but be must remind the House that the world was slow to admit the desirability of free trade in all circumstances, and that this was the only country which had thoroughly adopted it. We had done great things for India, and India owed us a great debt, and our rule in India was not a selfish rule. It was most desirable that we should not wound a large British interest in the tenderest point. Taking a practical view of the matter, he admitted the Government had pledged itself to a certain extent to a remission of those duties. No doubt the people of Lancashire felt very much aggrieved in this matter, and it was certainly hard that those who had created such a wonderful machinery should see another country cutting them out by the use of their own tools. He considered it in that view desirable that these duties should be given up, and if the Indian revenue was in such a position as to authorize their being given up they ought to be
  1096
  given up. But as the Indian finances would not admit of that sacrifice of revenue, if the Government held out a hope to the manufacturers of Lancashire that the proposed remission would be made, they must face the matter boldly, and state how the necessary money was to be obtained. He regretted that the Government of the late Viceroy of India had proposed to increase the salt duty. He considered the proposal to increase the salt duty a wicked one. That duty ranged from 600 to 2,000 per cent on one of the most indispensable articles of consumption, and amounted to an income tax of 6d. in the pound and upwards on every working man in that country. It was a duty which limited the use of articles of consumption, for it limited the consumption of fish and the supply to cattle, and was a very crying grievance. If the question of abandoning revenue came to be considered in India, it must be regarded not only with regard to the question of import duties, but with regard to the condition of the poorer classes. The question of the remission of the cotton duties involved the remission of the whole of the import and export duties, amounting to £2,500,000. The export duties stood on a different footing from the import duties; but it would be an anomaly that could scarcely be justified to give up the one and to maintain the other. If the Motion should be carried, it was clear that the import duties must give way, and then the export duties could not be justified. Taking a broad view of the financial situation, it must be remembered that such a loss of revenue as that involved in passing the Motion of the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Birley)—namely, of £2,500,000—must be accompanied by a concession to the poorer Natives of India of £1,500,000 or £2,000,000 of the salt duty. There must, therefore, be a surplus of £4,000,000 or £5,000,000 before this great financial operation could be undertaken. But had they this surplus? Certainly not. It was clear from the speech of the noble Lord on the Indian Budget that there was no existing surplus in India; and that, on the contrary, they were borrowing year after year to supply an ever-recurring deficit. They had been obliged to impose fresh taxation this year, and therefore they ought not to adopt the Resolution

  1097
  as it stood. The Government were bound, either to undertake a great financial operation or else to say to the Lancashire Members that they could not agree to their proposal. He could not sit down without saying that the observations which the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Jacob Bright) had made as regarded the Indian Civil Service were not justified. The accusation was, in his opinion, an unjust accusation. Whatever their faults, the fault had never been attributed to them of pecuniary corruption of any kind. Prom corruption they had held themselves aloof far more than the Civil Servants of this country; their reputation had been fair and unsullied in the past, and he trusted it would remain fair and unsullied to the end. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his Amendment.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "in the present condition of the finances of India, it is not possible to abandon the greater part of the Import Duties without an extensive re-adjustment of the financial system, and a fair consideration of other claims to remission of taxation,"—(Sir George Campbell,)
  —instead thereof.
  Question proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  COLONEL WALKERclaimed the indulgence of the House as a new Member, and as the Representative of a large constituency (Salford), which was greatly interested in the cotton manufactures. The hon. Member who had just sat down opposed the Motion because he wished the Government to remain unfettered; but if the Government remained unfettered, the manufacturing interests of this country would remain fettered for a long time to come. It had been said that the manufacturers and Representatives of Lancashire were putting a pressure on the Government. But there was nothing political in the matter, because the Motion had been proposed by an hon. Gentleman on that side and seconded by an hon. Gentleman on the other side. For himself, living, as he did, in the centre of a large manufacturing county, he would say that they wanted no favour, but they did want fair play. This question had been spoken of
  1098
  as one that most concerned very large capitalists. Hon. Gentlemen who thought so laboured under a great delusion. Those who were most affected were small capitalists, who were struggling against a tax imposed upon English goods by an English Government. This was not a question of Party. The whole Empire ought to be governed for the good of all, and this country, its trades and manufactures, ought not to be made to pay the penalty of too small an income of any one of its Possessions. They had been told by the hon. Member (Sir George Campbell) that this 5 per cent duty was only a small duty. The hon. Member had, happily, no concern with trade or commerce, or he would know that a small duty might lead to a great injustice, and that small duty was an undoubted hardship upon the manufacturing trade of the Northern Counties. In Lancashire they were already suffering from hard times. They were ready to concede to India the advantages she already possessed—cheap labour, long hours, the staple on the spot, a market close at hand; all they asked for themselves and countrymen was fair play, and that they did not get at the present moment. We were told of the great and overwhelming difficulty of meeting this £800,000 if the duty was remitted. We all knew that you would not easily find shoulders ready to accept any burden, and when everybody was willing to be taxed, the duty of governing would be easier and more agreeable than it was at present. But all the supporters of this Motion asked was that this question should be looked at in an impartial manner, and they left the interests of our manufacturing counties in the hands of the House, in the full conviction that they would meet with the justice to which they believed they were entitled.
  MR. BRIGGSsaid: Mr. Speaker, we who advocate the repeal of these duties labour under one great disadvantage—that is, we get small, very small, sympathy from those who do not fully understand the question, and who are, therefore, unable to appreciate the magnitude of the interests at stake, and the damage which is being done to the great cotton industry of the North of England by the action of these obnoxious duties. There are, I fear, a great many people in this country, I hope I may say not in this House, who still regard the cotton

  1099
  manufacturers of Lancashire as being a very rough-and-ready sort of folk, with a very keen eye to their own interests and a happy and profound indifference to the interests of others; an uninteresting class on the whole, but having one great redeeming feature—namely, that their pockets are overflowing with the immensity of the superfluity of their wealth. The operatives again are trade harpies who, when the good things of commerce are put upon the capitalist's table, swoop down upon them and carry off the best of everything, understanding nothing of, and caring nothing for, the fluctuations and vicissitudes of commerce. Well, Sir, those who hold views regarding us such as those I have faintly outlined, might be pardoned for saying—?"Why do not you Lancashire manufacturers amongst you pay off this miserable sum of £800,000 a-year without making such a fuss about it—you are wealthy enough? And as for you operatives, you ought to be only too rejoiced at having the opportunity of extending to your coloured fellow-workman in a distant land an increased means of earning his means of subsistence, even although it may result in the curtailment of the means of earning your own. Ay! even although it may result in a lowering of your wages themselves." It may be, Mr. Speaker, that in Lancashire we are somewhat wanting in the full development of high-flown philanthropic sentiment; but certain it is, that neither the mill-owners nor the operatives of Lancashire can for one moment admit the propriety of either of these propositions. Now, I am speaking in the presence of many Lancashire commercial men who will correct me if I am wrong, and I would not mind being judged by the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary, of whom Lancashire is justly proud, who is, or was, a banker, and who, I hope, does not know to his cost that Lancashire manufacturers are not now-a-days in the majority of cases wealthy men; on the contrary, they are struggling men, often commencing their business life on borrowed capital which they are laboriously endeavouring to pay off. Besides, the conditions of our trade are almost altogether altered. There was a time, I'll grant ye, when a Lancashire manufacturer never stopped to consider whether he would make a profit or a loss; profit was certain, and the only question
  1100
  was how much money he would make? But that is a long time ago; that happened before I was born. At that time, what is technically called the turn-over of a mill was small, and the margin of profit was great. Now-a-days, Sir-thanks to the increased price of everything which we use in our manufacturing processes—thanks to increased competition at home and abroad—thanks to the limitation of hours imposed by this House, with which I do not quarrel, but which, on the contrary, I should like to see extended to India when hon. Members may be pained and shocked to learn children offender years and women with infants at the breast work thirteen and a half hours a-day, seven days to the week, and nobody lifts a finger to help them—there is, I venture to submit, a wide and noble field for the philanthropic endeavours of those noble Lords and hon. Gentlemen who have been lately having a newspaper discussion as to who has done most or least for the factory operatives of this country—well, thanks to those matters to which I have alluded and to others with which I will not weary the House, a Lancashire manufacturer is obliged at the present time to look for a remunerative return for his risk and capital outlay, not to a small turn-over and a large margin of profit, but to a large and rapid turnover and a small margin of profit. Now, whenever you have a larger turn-over you have an increased production, and this may serve to explain to hon. Members what might otherwise seem inexplicable—namely, how it is that there should be discontent in Lancashire at having to pay this tax co-existent with an increased exportation of cotton goods to India. This is a fact to which our Indian opponents point with an assumption of triumph. They say—"You grumble, but you send us more goods every year." Yes, Sir, but are these Gentlemen who pin their faith so firmly to statistics aware that during the past twelve months large quantities of cotton goods have been sent to this country from America, and sold here at prices that could not possibly be remunerative to the American manufacturer? Because there has been an increased exportation from the United States, does that prove that the cotton manufacturers of America are in a sound and satisfactory condition? The facts are noto-

  1101
  riously to the contrary; and if further proof were needed, I might tell the House that I know of many cotton operatives who, after emigrating to America with their wives and families, have been obliged to return home again, because they could not earn enough money in that country to keep themselves in comfort. No, Sir, increased exportation, taken by itself, is no safe criterion of the healthy condition of the trade with which I am connected; and, speaking generally on this part of the subject, before I leave it I may say that the larger your turnover is obliged to be, in order to secure a margin of profit, the smaller will that margin of profit be; and the House will therefore see for itself that the narrower the gulf which separates profit from loss, the greater will be the damage done by this obstructive rock of a 5 per cent duty. That is to some extent the millowners' view of the question. The Lancashire operative, Sir, believes that, by the action of these protective duties, the bread is being unfairly and unjustly taken out of his mouth; he is patient and uncomplaining as a rule. I have never seen men more patient and enduring than our cotton operatives when under the strokes with which Providence has at various times thought fit to visit our trade. Hon. Gentlemen, many of whom contributed nobly to the funds raised in aid of our suffering population during the late cotton famine, may perhaps remember some of the tales that were told by those who were disinterested enough and self-sacrificing enough to serve on the relief committees—how people apparently comfortably off, if you could judge from their attire, came and asked for help, and how the members of the committee looked at one another, and wondered if it could really be true that these people, who seemed to be in good circumstances, could be in actual need of the bread and the soup which were doled out by these centres of relief; but on going to the homes of these poor people what did they find—bare walls! naked floors! destitution and utter want. Their little bits of furniture had all gone, and their few ornaments, mean and paltry perhaps to the eyes of hon. Members, but treasured by these humble people because connected with memories of their simple past—everything had gone, and it was only when some loved
  1102
  child, or husband, or wife maybe, was stricken down for the want of those necessaries for which, poor folks, they would willingly have worked, if they had had the chance, that they were at last driven to seek relief. They were too independent to do so before—too proud, if you will. Do you blame them for it? Too fearful of being branded with the odious epithet of pauper. All through that fearful time not a murmur. Sir, they are as patient and as independent this day. And if they have sent up Petitions from every mill and workshop engaged in the trade; if they have sent up deputations to London on funds provided by the pence of the people, the House may take it as certain, and you, Sir, may be sure that in this matter of the India import duties the cotton operative of Lancashire feels and knows that his future well-being and comfort are at stake. Now, Sir, what is our plea in asking for the abolition of these duties? We ask for no bounty to aid us in our competition with our trade opponents; we cringe for no favour; all we ask for is justice. When have you heard us complain because our trade is hemmed in by factory legislation of the severest kind, because we are inspected at every turn, told whom we shall employ, how long we shall employ them, and the conditions under which they shall labour; when have you heard us complain—more than other people, at any rate—because the fruits of our industry are taxed; from all of which, I fear I must say, impediments to trade, our Indian rival goes free. No, Sir, we kiss the rod of Parliamentary discipline which many of us have heartily co-operated in framing for our own backs, and we, at least, honestly endeavour to believe that every out-come of the collective legislative wisdom of this House is for the benefit of us all, employers and employed alike; but the last straw which breaks the back of our patience is this—that after we have sent abroad the Mercantile Marine of this country thousands of miles to fetch us home the raw material, which we quickly turn by a costly process into cheap and useful clothing for the millions of India, and which we then quickly send to our great Eastern dependency, after thus triumphing to some extent over time and space, that we should be told—"No, your goods shall not enter into competition with ours, unless you will pay

  1103
  an entrance fee of 5 per cent." But the Hindoo purchaser? You ask—Has he no interest in this matter? The poor man whom you see going from stall to stall in the Native bazaar, endeavouring to cheapen his one poor article of clothing, has he no interest at stake? The answer is—"Oh! the poor purchaser must take care of himself; that is no concern of ours; what we the Government of India, what we the official classes and interested millowners have to look to is, that a rising Indian industry must, at all hazards, be fostered." Why, Sir, this is rank protection! Is the House willing that this state of things should be continued? If so, what a contradiction in practice of your loudly enunciated Free Trade principles; what an example to set the nations of Europe just at the moment when Treaties of Commerce are expiring! I may be told—"Yes, but if India were self-governing, you would have more duty to pay than you have now—look at Australia! look at Canada!" Sir, we are not answerable for the trade follies and fallacies of our self-governing Colonies. Experience is proverbially a commodity that cannot be bought, that cannot be handed over; it must be earned, and I very much fear that both Australia and Canada must earn for themselves the same bitter experience of the evils of protection that their Mother England has done in the past, and their Cousin America is earning now; but I respectfully submit to this House of Commons that, inasmuch as India is not a self-governing Colony, inasmuch as she is governed directly from this country, that it would be wrong, aye more, it would be criminal in us to allow her to pursue a course which we know from our own bitter experience to be a wrong and a false one. I trust the House will pardon my speaking at this length, but I represent a district which, although small in area, yet pays considerably over a fourth of the whole of these duties; but in any remarks that I may make I will endeavour to be as brief as possible; and to begin with, I will not waste the time of the House by entering into a long discussion on the protective nature of these duties, and, for one very simple reason, because it is unnecessary. The fact has been admitted by such authorities as Lord Lytton, Lord Salisbury, and, greatest authority of all, Sir Louis Mallet, and
  1104
  condemned by them on these very grounds! Why, even our Indian mill-owning opponents in India admit that there is a protective element in these duties; but they say "the area over which that protective element has power is a small one, being, as a matter of fact, confined to one-twentieth of the whole of your trade to India—namely, the small amount of coarse cotton goods, which class of cotton goods India mostly makes for herself. Therefore, your grievance being such a small one, your claim to the abolition of these duties falls to the ground." That is a very specious argument, Mr. Speaker; but, when you come to consider it, there is a refreshing hardihood about it which is well worth the consideration of hon. Members; for what are the facts? India, some years ago, for fiscal purposes, imposes a duty on cotton goods; an Indian cotton industry springs up. Through the action of these duties, now become protective, as we contend, and as we can prove, India ousts us from all but a microscopic portion of what used to be the easiest, the largest, the most profitable branch of our trade; and then, having done us this injury, and without giving us any guarantee for the future, India has the courage to turn round and twit us with the very small portion of goods of this character which we now export, and upon this to argue that therefore, being injured in so slight a degree, our claim to the abolition of these duties falls to the ground. Was there every such an extraordinary conclusion arrived at, built upon such licensed premises? Sir, we were compared last year, by a very high authority in India, to a man who cried out that his whole body was in danger because his little finger ached. The comparison would have been juster had we been likened to a man whose right arm was withered up by the action of a slow, insidious, but fatal poison, and who knew from his own symptoms and from the opinion of those upon whose advice he was wont to rely, that unless some powerful antidote, some strong counter-irritant were applied the whole of his body and the whole of his powers of resistance would fall a victim to its fatal influence. That is our position, Sir. We know that these duties have injured us in the past; we know that they are injuring us at the present

  1105
  time; we justly fear that they will hurt and injure us in the future. An hon. Gentleman who sits below me (Mr. Grant Duff) gave us some friendly advice last year, which I, as one of the Members who took part in the debate, accepted in the same friendly spirit in which it was given. The hon. Gentleman said—"You would have done better had you displayed a little more of the wisdom of the serpent, and argued this matter from an Indian rather than from an English point of view." Sir, I, for one, did not consider it necessary to pursue that serpentine line of procedure; we had such a palpable grievance, we had such a plain, unvarnished tale to tell. Besides, I did not forget then, as I do not forget now, that there are hon. Members of this House who take the Natives of India under their protection, and, if it is necessary, to fire their enthusiasm, if it is really needful, to screw their courage up to any particular sticking point, so as to become bold and enthusiastic colleagues with us in our endeavours to secure the repeal of these duties, I would remind them that, although we Lancashire manufacturers pay £800,000 a-year to the Indian Exchequer—a sum which appears on the Estimates, which everyone can see—yet there is another sum which does not appear—namely, a sum amounting to nearly £800,000, which is paid by the Hindoo purchaser to the protected millowner. Mr. Speaker, I should be but a sorry antagonist, I fear, for the poorest and meanest political economist in this House, and I therefore will trouble hon. Members with no crude ideas and theories of my own; but what said Professor Bonamy Price in a pamphlet which he wrote a short time ago? Talking of Protectionists he said—
  "What is it they seek to accomplish? Nothing less than to raise a charity tax on the whole people for the "benefit of those employed in a few particular trades. Protection, under the plausible disguises of not throwing poor people out of work, and not allowing them to be trampled upon by foreign rivals, sends round a begging cap to all buyers of goods to make charitable contributions to particular individuals. Free traders are called hard-hearted; but what sort of feeling is it which inflicts impositions by force of law on every consumer for the advantage of some of their neighbours?"
  And, again, The Times newspaper, in
  1106
  lecturing the silk manufacturers' deputation the other day, observes—
  "It is a great pity, no doubt, that the silk trade of Coventry and Derby should be in such a bad way. We are very sorry for the distress of the weavers. But the gentlemen who waited on the Foreign Secretary made the mistake of supposing that nations exist for the sake of manufacturers instead of manufacturers for the sake of nations. Free trade is good because it is more profitable to benefit 10,000 persons than it is to benefit a single man."
  Sir, I claim not only Lord Derby, the Leader of the House of Lords, and The Times newspaper, the leader of public opinion, as enthusiastic Colleagues; but I also claim the co-operation of the learned Professor from whose writings I have quoted. Would that I could be as sure of the co-operation of another learned Professor in this House (Professor Fawcett). Mr. Speaker, I have talked over this matter of the Indian duties with many of our opponents, and they may be divided into two classes. There are, first, those who admit that these duties are bad ones, and ought to be abolished, but who declare that there are other Indian duties which press more heavily on the people of India, and to which they take an equal or worse exception. When pressed to name the particular duty which they have in their mind's eye, they generally say—"Oh! the salt duty." Well, Sir, I admit that the salt duties do press very heavily upon the people of India, and I would gladly see them abolished. But I was told on high authority that it would be impossible to deal with the salt duties for some time. Besides, Sir, consider what a drop in the great ocean of the salt duties would the abolition of £800,000 worth of duties be. Again, what difference can it make to the Hindoo whether a tax is taken from off his food or his clothing? Indeed, Sir, I sympathize very strongly with hon. Members who wish to secure the abolition of the salt duties, because there is a great similarity in some respect between the salt duties and the duties of which we Lancashire Members complain. Both are taxes on necessary commodities; both affect every man, woman, and child in India. [General Sir GEORGE BALFOUR: No, no!] Well, I beg the hon. and gallant Baronet's pardon as far as regards the children. The children in India do not wear anything for the first few years of their life. I was at-

  1107
  tempting to prove that these two duties were so far equal; but there is this radical difference between them—that whereas, on every pound of salt manufactured in the country or out of it a duty is paid, it is only on the cotton cloth manufactured out of India that this duty falls. The other class of opponents to whom I alluded are those who, while admitting that the cotton duties are worse than any other, and that they ought to be abolished, start back frighted and aghast before the great and fearful hiatus which the abolition of them would make in the poor, the mean, the insignificant revenues of India. When I was in India, just be-before the abolition of the income tax in that country, and at the time when I believe the hon. Baronet the Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) was convincing the Legislative Council of India with his oratory, I heard tales that made my blood curdle of the inequality of the incidence of that tax, of the difficulty of its collection, of the dreadful hindrance it caused to commercial enterprize and professional skill; but I never beard one word as to the financial difficulty which would ensue in the event of the income tax being abolished. That tax was abolished with the consent and approval of those very classes who now oppose the abolition of the duties of which in Lancashire we complain. Where there is a will, Sir, there is a way. Did not the noble Lord opposite (Lord George Hamilton) deal the financial pessimists of India a heavy blow the other day when he made his Financial Statement? Did not hon. Members go home with a greater conviction of the healthy condition of Indian finance? Must I remind the House that in 18 years the revenues of India have increased some 70 per cent? Is the House not aware that the revenues of India for seven years show a surplus of £2,000,000, after paying for £12,000,000 of famine expenditure, while the closed accounts for 1875–6 show a surplus of £1,668,000. Besides, enormous sums have been wasted in India in what may well be called extraordinary public works; ships chartered for Government purposes far higher than the market rate; railways guaranteed by Government, that seemed as if built on purpose to carefully avoid the centres of population; barracks that
  1108
  tumbled down before even a soldier crossed the threshold; canals dug for irrigation purposes that watered the land with salt water; and bridges that plunged, as if ashamed of their faulty construction, beneath the torrents they were meant to span. Sir, I do not mean to say that money has not been well spent in India on useful public works; I do not stop to ask whether remunerative or otherwise; I do not say that money has not been well spent in foiling that fearful foe of India—Famine; but I do contend, Sir, that it is wrong to make the present generation, which will probably benefit less than any other, bear the whole cost of carrying out useful public works; I respectfully submit that it is cruel to place on shoulders already weakened by famine, the whole burden of costs incurred in meeting that famine. Sir, if these charges be spread over a sufficient number of years, India, I will venture to say, will be able each year to show a surplus far more than enough to make up for the loss which would be incurred by the abolition of the duty on manufactured cotton goods. Sir, I thank the House for having so kindly listened to me, and would entreat Her Majesty's Government to disregard the sneers and taunts of mill-owning monopolists abroad, and noble Whig re-actionists at home, who would seem to wish us to believe that because Her Majesty's Government desire to take this burden from off the people of India, and at the same time to do an act of simple justice to Lancashire, that they are actuated by no higher motive than a desire to perform an act of political subserviency to Manchester, for the purpose—Heaven save the mark!—of winning a few borough elections.
  MR. SIDEBOTTOM: Sir, I brought this subject under the consideration of the House last Session on the Indian Budget. The House upon that occasion did me the honour to listen to the observations and arguments I brought forward, but after the able and exhaustive speeches of the hon. Member for Manchester and other hon. Members to which we have listened to-night, I feel that it is unnecessary to occupy its attention at any great length. I may, perhaps, however, be permitted to say that these duties are, on the one hand, injurious to the great body of consumers in India by materially enhancing the price of their

  1109
  chief article of clothing, and unjust on the other hand to English cotton manufacturers by establishing a premium on the manufacture of goods in India against English goods. The Government, indeed, by promising to abolish them as soon as the state of the revenue permits, have practically admitted the truth of both these propositions; but, with the exception of the unfortunate English manufacturer, who is so seriously injured by their operation, probably few persons either in this House or the country have any adequate conception of their extremely onerous nature. The nominal amount levied is 5 per cent on the value of the goods, but it is in reality more than this, because the value of the goods is estimated at a certain fixed amount, and the duty levied upon that amount; whereas owing to the great depression in trade and the absence of demand from other markets, the value of cotton goods has sunk to such a low ebb as to be in reality below the fixed amount upon which the duty is levied, so that at the pesent moment the actual amount of the duty is more than 5 per cent; and it must be remembered that this is not on the profit of the manufacturer, if profit he is ever to have again, but on his whole turn-over—a most important and material distinction, to which I beg the earnest attention of the House. I can only say that, as an extensive cotton manufacturer and as representing one of the oldest and best-known firms in the trade, I would gladly compound for 5 per cent profit on my turn-over, and I think most other English manufacturers would also willingly do the same. This duty, in fact, amounts to half of the wages paid to our weavers for weaving the cloth, and constitutes a bonus of about 3s. per week to every single loom working in Bombay; so that I venture to think the House will be of opinion that it is really most serious and most onerous, and that even if now repealed such an impetus has already been given to the erection of mills in India that English manufacturers will be quite sufficiently handicapped in the race of competition in other ways. First, there is the great distance our goods have to traverse to reach the markets of India at all. We have to bring the raw cotton—if Indian or Surat cotton be used—all the way from India to England; manufacture it here in England,
  1110
  and then convey it back again to India, paying all the charges for packing, freight, merchants' commission, and the whole cost of transit both ways. Wages here, in England, are eight or 10 times as much as they are in India, and what is of great importance, there is practically no restriction—or, at all events, very little restriction—on the hours of labour there. Bombay mills are now working 12 hours a-day, and seven days a-week, or more than 80 hours, against an English mill, 56 hours. If this fact, indeed, stood alone, it would give an immense advantage to the Indian mill-owner, because the cost of a cotton mill is so great, and the fixed expenses so heavy, that the time worked and the production turned off is of very great importance indeed. Well, it would be an easy task to prove from statistical accounts which I hold in my hand, that with all these natural and artificial advantages, and under the fostering influence of these protective tariffs the produce of Indian mills is fast superseding that of ours in England in the Indian markets. This subject has, however, been so fully entered into by previous speakers that I will not weary the House by quoting a long array of figures, but simply remark that not the least serious feature in this Indian rivalry is its rapid progress within the last few years. The first cotton mill was built in Bombay in the year 1855; in the year 1861 there were only 11; in 1874 the number was 24, an increase of only 13 mills in 13 years; but about this time 18 new mills were projected to contain 531,000 spindles, which are now no doubt at work, and to show the House that the production of these mills is really superseding that of English mills, it appears that whilst out of a total of 389,000,000 yards of cotton cloth supplied to Bombay during the year 1861, 275,000,000 were imported from England, and 114,000,000 produced in Bombay. In the year 1876 out of a total of 698,000,000 yards supplied, only 318,000,000 were imported from England, 380,000,000 being produced in Bombay. These figures are, I think, sufficient to satisfy the House as to the serious nature of the competition to which English manufacturers are exposed by their competitors in India—and that, to say the least, these competitors are quite able to hold their own against us without being artificially

  1111
  protected by our own Government. I was very much struck with the statements in a letter which appeared in a London daily paper a short time ago. The writer stated that in a cotton mill of 1,000 looms, in England, making cloth for India, £7,500 a-year was paid for duty, £14,000 for charges of various kinds on the cloth, and £5,000 charges on the importation of the cotton—supposing it came from India—or a direct advantage of £26,500 per annum to an Indian mill of the same size, without taking into account the indirect advantages caused by working longer hours, and so dividing the fixed expenses over a greater production. Well, I have taken the trouble to examine some of these statements, and find them, if anything, under rather than over-stated, and I think the House will be of opinion that we need no longer be surprised at the rapid development of the cotton trade in India, nor at the uneasiness displayed by English manufacturers. I can speak feelingly on this subject. When I had the honour of bringing this subject under the attention of the House last Session, I stated that although my family had been engaged in the cotton trade from its earliest infancy for three generations, neither my grandfather, my father, nor myself had, so far as I know, ever made goods for India, being engaged in an entirely different branch of the trade. Since then, however, the stagnation in the cotton trade has been so universal, the absence of demand so general, the inability of all the other markets of the world to take off the production of our English mills so decided, and the stocks held of manufactured goods so enormous, that, driven well-nigh to our wits' end, many manufacturers, not previously accustomed to the Indian trade, have been obliged to resort to it, myself amongst the number. The greatest portion of my looms are the wrong width and not adapted; but it so happens that I have about the same number mentioned in this letter—that is, about 1,000 the right width—and during last autumn I set these to work, making goods for India. Well, I appeal to any hon. Member in this House, is it fair? is it reasonable? is it right? that in addition to the natural advantages of £19,000 a-year which a mill in India possesses over mine, I should also pay a tax of £7,500 for every 1,000 looms, and yet this is
  1112
  the real literal state of the case. My chief object, however, in alluding to this matter is to show the immense importance of the Indian markets to this country; but it may be said if, notwithstanding this tax, these markets take off such a large proportion of your goods, why do you complain? You have proved too much by half. The answer is the Indian markets constitute the chief outlet for our production. We have already lost our trade in the coarser goods, which can be supplied cheaper by Native manufacturers, and we see an industry springing up beneath the fostering influence of these protective tariffs and advancing with giant strides to deprive us of what is at this moment the very sheet anchor and mainstay of our trade—and threatening, unless checked in its career by the early and entire removal of these duties, to overwhelm at no distant day both employers and employed in one common destruction. The injustice and hardship inflicted upon English operatives indeed is quite as great as upon employers; because, however large an amount of capital is leaving England for the purpose of establishing mills in India, operatives cannot follow that capital. They possess no capital but their labour, and in the prospect of the stoppage of mills in England they see nothing but ruin, distress, and misery before them. And for whose benefit are these serious risks incurred? Who are our competitors? Who are the projectors, and who are the owners of these Indian mills? Are they poor struggling Natives, who ought to be assisted and encouraged in their efforts to develop Native industry, and to employ Native capital otherwise lying dormant by the aid of protective duties, however wrong in principle, however opposed to true and sound doctrines of finance, however contrary to the principles of free trade, however injurious and oppressive to the great body of Native consumers throughout India, and however unjust to English manufacturers at home? Nothing of the kind. But there is reason to believe that, at all events, some proportion—if not a considerable proportion of the mills in India—are owned by Anglo-Indian officials and by English capitalists, who, from the operation of restrictive laws at home, shorter hours of labour, high wages, and other causes into the

  1113
  consideration of which it is unnecesary now to enter, have taken their capital where they can receive a better return for it. Nor do we in the least complain of their doing so; but we do ask for fair play, and we do object to our goods being charged a heavy duty before they are allowed to enter India to compete with those of our rivals. Besides, a most injurious effect is also produced upon the trade of this country indirectly in other ways. There have lately been important negotiations in reference to a new Treaty of Commerce with our neighbours across the Channel; but how can we, with any show of consistence, advocate the doctrines of free trade? How can we ask France, or any other foreign nation, to remove duties from our goods so long as we allow an enormous duty to be levied upon them in our own Empire of India? Well, these duties being admitted to be vicious in principle, to have, as I think I have shown, such a bad effect in practice, and Her Majesty's Government having, in consequence, promised their repeal, why cannot this take place at once? Bis dat qui cito dat. A powerful argument for their immediate repeal is offered by the fact to which I have just alluded of English capital being transferred to India, because this process may be now going on; this capital may be being transferred at the present moment, and it cannot too soon be made clearly manifest that whilst there is no desire or intention to interfere in the slightest degree with the natural advantages Indian mills will ever possess over those at home, they certainly will not continue to be supported by enormous protective duties which every day they continue afford encouragement for the erection of new mills and for the creation of vested interests to oppose their repeal. I apprehend the most powerful argument against their immediate repeal is because it is thought that the present state of the Indian revenue will not allow it. Well, in the presence of Gentlemen on both sides of the House, who are such high authorities on Indian finance, I confess to approaching this part of the subject with considerable diffidence, but what are the facts? The Revenue of India at the present moment is about £52,000,000, whilst the Debt is £130,000,000, or nearly about 2½ times the amount of the Revenue. Well, is there here any primâ facie evidence of approaching bankruptcy,
  1114
  or of any undue strain upon the resources of the Empire? How does it compare with our own position in the United Kingdom at home? The Imperial Revenue is between £70,000,000 and £80,000,000 and the Debt about £725,000,000—that is, nearly 10 times the amount of Revenue—and yet I never heard that our credit was bad, or that we usually experienced much difficulty in raising funds when required. But this is not all, for we have in addition a very large debt connected with local taxation, amounting to about £105,000,000, with a revenue of £28,000,000, the Debt being thus about four times the amount of the Revenue. Our local bodies in England, again, borrow from £5,000,000 to £8,000,000 per annum, which they do not spend on railways, canals, gasworks, and other reproductive works, exclusively; but to a large extent on sanitary and other works of a similar character yielding no direct pecuniary return. The Revenue of India, therefore, compares very favourably with that of our own, and indeed with that of every solvent State in Europe, the debts of nine solvent European States being on the average six-and-a-half times the amount of their respective revenues; and when we consider in addition the very great expansion of which it is susceptible, when we call to mind that in the year 1840 it was only £20,000,000, whilst it is now upwards of £50,000,000, and that the whole amount raised by these duties is under £1,000,000. We cannot help thinking that such an unjust tax, raising only such a small amount of revenue, might be at once repealed. I said just now that we have lost our trade with India in the coarser goods, and yet though the duty has long since ceased to be productive it still remains, I presume for protective and prohibitory objects alone. Are we, then, still to wait patiently till our trade in the finer goods is also destroyed, so that when their importation has also ceased the Indian revenue, forsooth, may then bear the abolition of the duty. I say it is most monstrous that Lancashire should continue to pay these unfair imposts a single day longer. If it can be shown that we are bound to balance the Indian Budget, it would be preferable to pay the amount in hard cash by a direct tax upon our mills rather than in the present most objectionable form, and it would be far

  1115
  more reasonable, more equitable, and more just to place a duty of 3s. per week on every loom working in India, which, as I have shown, would still possess a great advantage over English looms, and a proportionate tax on every spindle, rather than to continue the present tax, or upon English machinery, which is of course allowed to enter India duty free, and of the advantages of which Indian manufacturers of course take care to avail themselves to the utmost. I do not, however, wish to be understood as advocating such a course further than to point out that if it can be shown that the revenues of India will not really bear the loss of £800,000 per annum raised by these duties, then it would be just and equitable to place a tax on machinery in India, in order to equalize the burden and cause Indian mills to bear their proper share along with English mills, for it cannot surely be maintained that one portion of the dominions of the Crown should be permanently placed under serious disadvantage, and saddled with onerous burdens for the direct benefit of another portion. We have heard a good deal about the demand for the repeal of these duties being "a Manchester delusion," and other unmerited and uncalled for taunts, but it is really a most serious question, which powerfully affects the cotton manufacturing industry of this country. This industry has £130,000,000 of capital invested in it. It affords direct employment to about 500,000 operatives, and there are altogether fully 2,000,000 of people dependent upon it. One-third of the entire exports of this country consists of cotton goods, and one-fifth of those cotton goods goes to India. Depend upon it, the repeal of these duties is fast becoming a great, a burning question, and if not accomplished before the next General Election I shall be greatly surprised if hon. Gentlemen are not then, at all events, made fully alive to its importance. The hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for the City of Oxford said at an earlier period of the Session that "the trade of this country was the very breath of its nostrils," and the right hon. Gentleman opposite the Member for the City of London favoured us some little time ago with a most interesting and graphic description of the disastrous condition at the present moment of wellnigh every trade and well-
  1116
  nigh every industry in this country, and there can, indeed, be no doubt that we are passing through a most grave and serious crisis, the effects of which will be felt by thousands for many long years to come. The dark thunder clouds also which have been so long clustering on the Eastern horizon have at last burst, the tempest is now raging there in all its fury, and such a storm cannot but be accompanied by great and widespread depression and disasters. But I have faith in the future of our country and in the revival of her trade. Only let us abolish these miserable remnants of protection, these exploded fallacies of a bygone age, and depend upon it there will be brighter days in store for us, and we shall again see that commerce prosper and that trade flourish, which have contributed in no small degree to the grandeur, the greatness, and the prosperity of England.
  GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURstated that he had an Amendment on the Paper in succession to the Motion of the hon. Member for Manchester, who proposed to reduce the duties levied in India on English cotton manufactures. But as that Amendment was not to be pressed, he proposed to be brief, out of consideration for the many hon. Gentlemen who desired to express their views on this important Motion. He had given way to the wishes of his hon. Friends the Members for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) and Hackney (Mr. Fawcett) to allow their Amendments to be pressed, if deemed advisable. He hoped that before the Government meddled with these cotton import duties, they would consider what the consequences would be if the duties on imports of that class of goods were abolished. The whole value of imports from foreign countries into India subject to duty, exclusive of salt, amounted to a fraction under £33,000,000 in the year ending 31st March, 1876. That was the highest value of imports paying duty in any year of the last 10 years; it was £2,250,000 higher than in the previous year. Now the value of the cotton manufactures imported into India during 1876 was nearly £250,000 below the value in 1875, but higher than in any one year of the nine preceding years. Even that value might have been diminished by lower rates of values in the new tariff, on which the ad valorem duties were now struck. Even if

  1117
  profits were nil on the trade to India in cotton goods, yet it could not be said that the trade of India in Manchester manufactures had fallen off during the last year. If these cotton manufactures were placed on the Free List, the value of imports subject to duty would be less than £13,750,000. If the Government relieved the manufacturers from the import duty on cotton goods, they would cut down the Indian revenue by nearly £900,000. That would bring down the Indian import duties to less than £900,000. The total duties now collected from all duty-paying articles amounted in the year ending 31st March, 1876, to £1,776,896, being less than the collections on all imports (exclusive of salt) in the previous year, and in two other years of the previous 10 years. Now, out of last year's collections, the cotton manufactures paid duties to the amount of £872,146, thus leaving £904,750 for all other articles, excluding duties on salt. It might then be asked, was it wise, or would it be possible, to maintain the import duties at all, when they were brought down to so low a figure? He had already strongly urged the giving up of all import and export duties, not only on the articles of ordinary trade and manufacture, but also on salt, and not alone on salt imported into India from foreign countries, but further the Excise or monopoly taxes raised from the salt, the growth or yield of India. He fully believed that this thorough free trade policy was not only commercially right, but also wise and prudent in a political and military point of view. He could therefore add that even if the salt duties were not now meddled with, he wished all duties on other articles of trade were removed for the good both of England and India. But if the Government relieved the cotton goods of Manchester from import duties, how could they in fairness refuse to relieve the metal and other trades? The metal interests had no representatives to bring their grievances before that House, but all the traders of England ought to be placed on the same footing, and if the Government gave freedom to one particular branch of trade, they were bound to treat the rest similarly. His hon. Friend the Member for Kirkcaldy had also urged this claim for equal treatment to all industries. The metal trade
  1118
  of imports into India in the last year showed a higher value than in the five preceding years, but not so high as in the three first years of the decade. Then the English manufacturers of flax, of woollens, and leather also deserved the same fair treatment as that asked for cotton fabrics. But if all these articles were placed on the Free List of the Indian tariff, then the imports into India subject to duty would be reduced to a value a little above £8,000,000. The duties on this value, measured by collections in 1876, would then amount to about £632,371. But the duties on imported ales, wines, and spirits, amounting to £311,408 out of that sum, were levied on a value of imports of nearly £1,400,000. These duties being levied in connection with the Excise on spirits, could be retained and collected as an Excise, thus practically reducing the imposts on all other articles to less than a third of a million. But from this sum must be deducted the charges of collection. These could not be less than £250,000. This amount must, however, include many more charges than the finance accounts at present showed, and thereby increase the charges of collection to an amount equal to the sum collected. If, then, any tariff changes were made to favour the one industry—that of cotton manufactures—the Government could not stop there, other industries equally deserving must be equally attended to. The question of competing industries in India with like industries at home was quite as applicable to those already named as to the cotton manufactures of Lancashire. But there were the claims of other nations and of other countries to be considered. The produce of the Islands in the Indian Ocean, mainly dependent on India, that of the coasts of the Persian Gulf, of Zanzibar, of Arabia, of Africa, ought to be cared for. The freedom of commerce between India and those places was politically of far more value than the amount of duties now collected on their commerce. On this plea there was an urgent inducement to allow free trade with those coasts and ports, and necessarily diminishing the duties collected in India on imports. Then with regard to Europe, it would be found that England was more favoured in regard to freedom of trade with India than any other nation. French goods

  1119
  were much more heavily taxed all round; and if England wanted to negotiate a Commercial Treaty with France on favourable terms, all she had to do was to take off the duties on French produce imported into India. France was a valuable ally of India, for the imports from France into India were small, but almost all subject to duty; whereas the exports from India to France were nearly 10 times the value of the goods taken by India, and, unfortunately, from their nature, heavily taxed by our Indian export tariff. An examination of the commercial legislation of England towards India in former years would put an end to the further plea of a community of interests between Egland and India, because it would bring to light the unjust treatment of the trade of India by England. He could carry his remarks back to the beginning of this century, especially to the year 1814, when the trade to India was first thrown open to the general public, but he would confine himself to the year 1840, when a Select Committee on Indian commerce inquired into a Petition of the East India Company against the burdens, in the form of heavy Customs duties, imposed in England on Indian products. On that Committee sat the father of his hon. and gallant Friend the Chairman of the Metropolitan Board of Works. Well, the inquiries of that Committee exposed the manner in which Indian products had been virtually prohibited, or their export hindered by heavy differential duties. The cotton manufactures of India, so famed for fine quality, were thus destroyed, and the wealth and industries of the people of India depressed, in order to foster and encourage English industries. At one time heavy duties were levied in this country on the import of the staple products of India, whereas Colonial products of the same kind were admitted into England at considerably lower rates; and no one could study our former commercial relations with India without forming the sad conclusion that our commercial legislation affecting India was one of the greatest blots in the history of our relations with that country. History showed that protection to English industries was an avowed object, and next the Colonial interests, for the products of the Colonies had been admitted into this country at nominal duties compared
  1120
  with those levied on the products of India. Then in recent years the favouring of English salt had been and was still prevalent, for the trade in the superabundant salt of India was and is paralyzed, with the object of fostering the salt trade of Cheshire. This salt trade was a good illustration of the protectionist policy of England. The bountiful Creator had bestowed on India ample stores of salt. The coasts of Bombay, of Madras, the Central Indian Lake of salt, the Punjab mines of salt, were given to be used by the people of India as a condiment for their vegetable diet. But man, by artificial measures, had prevented the abundant use of that necessary article which Nature had bestowed. The natural product of Cheshire required an outlet, and politicians devised a double kind of taxation on Indian salt, in order to create an import of salt into India; so that the salt of the Madras coast, which was in prior years sent to Bengal at one-tenth of the cost of Cheshire salt, was now stopped by the protecting duties levied in Bengal and the monopoly charges at Madras. No one could study the Papers relating to the salt trade of India without forming the conclusion that without these unfair duties Cheshire salt could not be sold in India. The yearly increasing deficits of India and its increasing expenditure demanded their earnest attention. If the duties on English cotton manufactures were reduced or abolished, then, in justice to India, corresponding relief ought to be afforded in respect to the duties which they imposed on the Indian products of tea and coffee. There were vast tracts of land in India admirably adapted for raising tea and coffee, from which, if the resources were developed, additional revenue might be derived by India; and he trusted that these products would be largely developed under proper encouragement, and other measures resorted to before the suggestions made in the Resolution and during the debate were adopted, of depriving India of a revenue from the duties levied on English manufactures. The Amendment which he had put on the Paper made two proposals for the protection of Indian revenues—one that in return for freeing Lancashire cotton goods from duties when imported into India, this country should admit the coffee and tea of India free of duty—the

  1121
  amount now collected from these two products being nearly the same as the amount of the duties levied in India on the Lancashire goods. The second proposal was, that England should buy up all the Customs of India by paying to the Indian Government the sum of £2,000,000 annually, and thus free the coasts of India from all charges on goods and ships. By this thorough free trade the influence and prestige of the superior power of England would be extended, and the commercial relations so widely established with Asiatic Governments as to serve as a complete counteraction to the monopolizing and exclusive spirit which so markedly characterized the Russian races.
  MR. FAWCETTsaid, if this were simply an abstract question between free trade and protection, no one would more cordially support the Motion than he should; but, under the present circumstances, he regarded the proposal of the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Birley) as inopportune and hopelessly impracticable. It was not an abstract question of political economy, but involved questions of finance and policy of the utmost importance. The noble Lord the Under Secretary for India had informed them the other day that such were the financial necessities of that country that the Government must take authority to borrow in one year a sum of no less than £8,500,000, and so entirely had they exhausted all their sources of taxation that not a single penny could be added to the Imperial revenues of India by additional taxes. This meant that in a single year there would be an amount of interest to be borne by India for this loan equal to one-half of what the cotton duties would yield; and yet that was the moment when the hon. Member for Manchester and his Friends came down to that House, and, without offering a suggestion worthy of a moment's consideration as to how the money was to be obtained, asked them to sacrifice £1,000,000 of the revenue of India. That fact was alone sufficient to condemn the proposition. If the Amendment of the Under Secretary of State for India was carried the sting would be taken out of the Motion of the hon. Member for Manchester, and he would recommend the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) not to press
  1122
  his Amendment to a division. The words of the noble Lord's Amendment, "so soon as the financial condition of India will permit," would deprive the original Motion of its chance of doing mischief and at the same time exhibit to the world its utter impracticability. If the Motion in its original form was passed it would appear to say—We care not at what cost, we care not for the consequences, we care not how great the financial embarrassment may be, Lancashire demands it, and because Lancashire demands it £1,000,000 of Indian revenue must be sacrificed. He was anxious that nothing should be done which would tie the hands of any future Secretary of State on this question. He could not presume to say what interpretation the Government would place on the words "so soon as the financial condition of India will permit;" but it seemed to him that the words were very elastic, and capable of a wide interpretation. Frequent reference had been made in that debate to the principles of political economy; but if the House were to take the abstract principles of that science and apply them cut and dry, without considering the social and political circumstances of the case, they would act more like pedants than like politicians, and might produce an amount of discontent in India which would seriously imperil the integrity of the Empire. Statesmen must consider not merely whether a particular tax was theoretically bad, but whether it created discontent or otherwise among the people; and, looking at the question in that light, he asserted that there was not a single tax levied in India which was so satisfactory to the people of that country as the revenue raised by those import duties. The supporters of the Motion of the hon. Member for Manchester had not quoted one tittle of Native opinion in favour of the abolition of those duties. Again, in selecting a tax for repeal they ought to consider the advantages and disadvantages of remitting it as compared with other taxes; and, applying that rule to the present case, he said that even if, instead of having to raise £8,500,000 upon loans they had a surplus of £1,000,000 in the Indian Exchequer, those import duties were not the part of their fiscal system which had the first claim to consideration with a view to their remission.

  1123
  With respect to the salt duty, he would ask what could he worse than a system of taxation which deprived millions of people throughout the greater part of India of one of the prime necessaries of life? But the mischief did not stop there, for it exercised a baleful influence on agriculture. That being the case, whenever the day came when India should possess a surplus revenue it would be necessary to consider, not simply the trade of Lancashire, but to consider also to what purposes the remission of revenue could be devoted so as to benefit the whole population of India. Between 1850 and 1855 the value of cotton goods exported from this country was £5,600,000. In the next 10 years the amount was £10,200,000, and the next 10 years it had grown to £18,600,000, and in 1874–5 the largest amount on record was sent out. He thought the Lancashire Members and the Lancashire people should consider something else with regard to the future of the cotton trade than the repeal of the import duty on cotton goods. The Secretary of the Department of Agriculture and Commerce stated that the trade was suffering on account of the deterioration in the quality of the articles sent out, and that great complaints existed both in India and China with respect to the amount of size used in the manufacture of Manchester goods. And with respect to the duty, it should be borne in mind that it was not paid by the manufacturers any more than the duty on malt was paid by the maltster, or that on beer by the brewer. The consumer paid in the long run. Reference had been made to the speech delivered by the Marquess of Salisbury at Manchester a short time ago. In that speech the noble Marquess did not absolutely promise that the import duties should be repealed, but stated that their repeal depended upon the financial exigencies of India. What practically then could be done? The passing of any number of abstract Resolutions would not justify the Government in sacrificing £1,000,000 of Indian revenue. They were nothing but an expression of opinion. But the Chancellor of the Exchequer told the House that "what Lancashire thought to-day England would think to-morrow; "and if Lancashire would declare that in its opinion it was the duty of the House of Commons to change its attitude with re-
  1124
  gard to Indian finance, England would see that that attitude was changed. We had hitherto always treated India as if it were a rich country, whereas it was really the poorest country in the world. Let Lancashire say that less money must be spent by the Government in India; and if that were done here these duties might easily be repealed and other fiscal reforms carried out.
  MR. GRANT DUFFsaid, he sympathized very much with the views of those who thought that the finance of India would not be in a sound condition until they had got rid of all Customs duties whatever, import as well as export. That, however, could not be done all at once. The utmost they could ask was that advantage should be taken of every opportunity to draw nearer and nearer to the only system suited to the circumstances of India—a system of perfect free trade. One of these opportunities he saw in the strong feeling against the import duties on cotton goods which now prevailed in Lancashire. He did not care to discuss at any length whether there were still any duties in India more undesirable even than these cotton duties; but he thought that the abolition of the salt line and the internal sugar duties were even more pressing. He understood, however, that the Government of India had been long engaged in the negotiations with Native States which must complete the admirable work begun by Lord Northbrook in doing away with a part of the salt line, and he considered that it would be quite unfair to press them to do more in that matter than they were doing. But these cotton duties had this peculiar evil attached to them—that the mischiefs connected with them went on spreading and complicating. Every year more capital was sunk in Indian mills, and more false hopes were raised that a solid industry was going to be built on a protective basis. India should take warning from the example of America, where manufacturing industry began by trusting only to the incidental protection of revenue duties, but went on to demand the ruinous system of Protection, which was now so great a calamity even to that land of unequalled resources. What, then, ought to be done? He admitted that the cotton duties could hardly be abolished at once. That would be far too violent a measure; but why, even at

  1125
  the risk of a small deficit, might they not be reduced next year to 3½ per cent, and then gradually abolished altogether—so much being taken off each year, irrespective of financial prospects? If this were done, by wise economy, and by the stimulus which healthy financial measures ever gave to trade, sometimes in ways that could not be foreseen and could not even easily be traced, no great amount of loss would be experienced at the end of the period over which the abolition might be extended. If in 1881 it was clear that the loss of this revenue from the cotton duties was the cause of a deficit, Indian financiers would have to take into their serious consideration whether it was either just or expedient to attempt to build up a permanent system of taxation without again having recourse to the income tax or something like it, either for Imperial or provincial purposes. The House had been told that night, as it had often been told before, that the income tax was unpopular. So it was to some extent. Uneducated people would always prefer being cheated out of their money through something that did not look like taxation to paying it away; but that was a mischief which tended to decrease as they got more intelligent and became accustomed to the payment. It was most proper to govern, as far as possible, in accordance with the ideas of the governed, but the line must be drawn somewhere. It would surely not be wise to govern in accordance with the idea that two and two made five, however much that idea might commend itself to the governed. It was very questionable how far, in governing India, we ought to ignore our own dearly-bought experience in financial and fiscal matters. To do so was really to govern on the principle that two and two made five.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON,in reply, said, that he rose to state the views of the Secretary of State for India on this question. Of all the questions which might come under the notice of the House there were none which should receive more impartial and unbiassed consideration than those which affect the interests of our Colonies and Dependencies. Nothing could be more impolitic or likely to injure the integrity of our Empire than to let the impression get abroad that because the local interests of a particular part of England
  1126
  were strongly represented in Parliament, the interests so represented should be held to be superior to those of our great Dependency, which did not happen to be represented in Parliament at all. He would address the House on the subject before them from an Indian point of view alone. The real questions they had to consider were—was it for the benefit of India that these duties should be repealed, and, if the answer was in the negative, then to consider how it would be possible to get rid of them without imposing additional and, it might be, more burdensome taxation? They had existed from the earliest time of our rule, and they had been re-adjusted by Mr. Wilson when he commenced his reforms to establish an equilibrium between expenditure and revenue. Lord Salisbury had never thought that the growth of cotton mills in Bombay was primarily due to duties, or that their repeal would injuriously affect this industry. India annually consumed more cotton, and the Indian manufacturers in Bombay continually supplied more, and as undoubtedly these duties enhanced the price of cotton goods in India, year by year India was paying more for the cotton goods she consumed, and these duties were in proportion bringing in less revenue. Lord Salisbury felt that these duties ought to be done away with as soon as possible, and sent out two despatches to India in 1875, in the first of which he expressed his regret that the revenue of India was not in a such a position as to enable the Government to carry out such fiscal reforms as were urgently needed, and in the second he gave his reasons for advocating a repeal of the import cotton duties. Since then there had been a great fall in the price of silver and last year a dreadful famine broke out in Bombay and Madras, and it was therefore impossible at present to touch the import duties. The Secretary of State still, however, adhered to the opinions which he had expressed, which were, that those duties were duties which called for reduction, and that as soon as the state of the revenue permitted the Indian Government must take measures to reduce them. There was a proposal to lay an Excise duty on the work of Indian looms, but that would lead to so vast amount of inconvenience, and would require a direct supervision of every handloom throughout India.

  1127
  It was, therefore, not for the advantage of either the Indian producer or the Indian consumer that these taxes should he continued. But it was asked by the hon. Member for Kirkcaldy (Sir George Campbell) how if the import duties on cotton were repealed the loss of revenue thus incurred could be made good? Well, he could only reply that the whole of the railroads in one sense belonged to the Government of India, and that if we were to reduce the Customs' duties on one article which was largely consumed, not only would the Customs' revenue be benefited by the increased consumption, but we should have the advantage resulting from the additional traffic on the railways. He was therefore sanguine enough to believe that if next year there was a surplus of revenue over expenditure, so as to enable the Indian Government to deal with the cotton duties and also with the salt duties, although there might be a temporary loss of revenue, there would be such an increase in the receipts from railway traffic as to compensate for that loss. The latter article was a necessary of life, and the tax operated hardly upon the poorer people of India; and as to the former article, there could be no doubt that the import duty interfered a good deal with the cotton trade of Lancashire. The Amendment which he had placed on the Paper—namely, to add to the Motion the words "so soon as the financial condition of India will permit"—expressed, he might add, the views on the subject which the Secretary of State had over and over again enunciated when he said that he would not impose additional taxation or incur the risk of a deficit, but that as soon as the revenues of India permitted he would deem it right to direct that the cotton duties should be reduced.
  MR. LAINGwished that they were in a condition, so far as India was concerned, to reduce the entire of the duties the subject of debate. A difficulty, however, arose from the depreciation of silver and other causes; and if they swept away the duties now sought to be abolished, they would lose all that could be secured by that most unpopular impost, the income tax. He contended that there ought to be no new taxation in India.
  Amendment proposed,
  To add, at the end of the Question, the words "so soon as the financial condition of India will permit."—(Lord George Hamilton.)
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, he would withdraw his Amendment in favour of the Amendment of the noble Lord the Under Secretary of State for India.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question, "That those words be there added," put, and agreed to.
  MR. BIRLEYpreferred his Motion without the addition of the Amendment, but would accept it so that the House might appear to the people of India to be unanimous on the subject.
  Main Question, as amended, put.
  Resolved, That, in the opinion of this House, the Duties now levied upon Cotton Manufactures imported into India, being protective in their nature, are contrary to sound commercial policy, and ought to he repealed without delay, so soon as the financial condition of India will permit.

WAYS AND MEANS.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (£20,000,000) BILL.
  Resolution [July 9] reported, and agreed to:—Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. RAIKES, Mr. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. WILLIAM HENRY SMITH.
  Bill presented, and read the first time.

CHURCH OF ENGLAND ENDOWMENTS.

  RESOLUTION.
  MR. WHALLEYrose to move the following Resolution:—
  "Having regard to the vast and increasing amount of Imperial and local taxation, the continued depression and decline of trade, commerce, and manufactures, and the necessity for affording the utmost practicable freedom to industrial operations; also, having regard to the fact that endowment of particular creeds and forms of worship is opposed alike to the interests of religion and morality, and to the principles of civil and religious liberty, it is expedient that the public money now applied to the support of the particular creed or form of worship known as that of the Church of England should be appropriated towards the liquidation of the National Debt or other relief of such public burthens, subject to full compensation for all existing interests affected thereby"
  when—
  Notice taken, that 40 Members were not present; House counted, and 40 Members not being present,
  House adjourned at half after One o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading— Factors Acts Amendment* (140).
Select Committee—Report—Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Artisans and Labourers Dwellings) * (139).
Committee—Report—New Forest* (129).
Report—Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Joint Boards) * (131).

ARTIZANS AND LABOURERS' DWELLINGS ACT—DEMOLITIONS IN FETTER LANE.—OBSERVATIONS.
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYdesired to call attention to the accounts which had appeared in the newspapers of the hardships that had been inflicted upon the poorer class of inhabitants of Blewitt's Buildings, in Fetter Lane, in consequence of their eviction from their dwellings for the purpose of the improvements about to be made in that district under the Artizans and Labourers' Dwellings Act; and wished to know whether the attention of the Government had been called to the subject?
EARL BEAUCHAMP,in reply, stated that in consequence of these statements in the newspapers an inquiry had been made, the result of which did not bear out their statements, which were more picturesque than accurate. He had not any detailed information as to the number of persons who were affected by the scheme; but the district was scheduled in the Act of last year, and the notices had been duly served upon the inhabitants of Blewitt's Buildings—to which, however, they paid not the slightest attention. The attention of the Sanitary Committee of the Commissioners of Sewers had been directed to the disgraceful condition of these buildings; and on the 12th of June last the Sanitary Committee reported that the place was notorious for some of the worst offences against the sanitary law, and was a standing disgrace owing to the conduct of the tenants, who had set the owner at defiance. The Commissioners directed their clerk to refer at once to the freeholder, and direct him to put the
1040
buildings in order without any further delay; but the powers given by the Artizans Dwellings Act had not been put in force, in consequence of the owner having undertaken to pull the houses down within three months. However, nothing had been done, in consequence of the persistent refusal of the occupiers to turn out, and the nuisance had become so great that it was necessary for the sanitary authorities to take action in the matter. The usual three months' notice was given to the tenants; but they had either forgotten it, or set it altogether at defiance. The principle of the Artizans and Labourers Dwellings Act was that the inhabitants of all houses which were a source of danger to themselves or their neighbours should be compelled to leave them; and he did not think that those who set themselves in absolute defiance of the law deserved any sympathy at the hands of their Lordships.

NAVY—H.M.S. "INFLEXIBLE."

  OBSERVATIONS.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that a Question which he had intended to put to the Government that day with reference to the Inflexible had been forestalled by the decision of the Government to have the vessel's stability tested by the calculation of a Commission or committee of experts. Under these circumstances, he would only point out that it was very desirable when this problem was submitted to scientific men that the data upon which they were to proceed should be thoroughly understood, because he rather suspected that some misunderstanding on that point was the cause of the difference of opinion which at present existed between the Admiralty on the one hand and Mr. Reed and his followers on the other.
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONassured the noble Duke that the Commission about to be issued would consist of gentlemen who were perfectly competent to deal with the subject, and who were in no way connected with the Admiralty. The data upon which they would proceed would, he trusted, be such that when the result of their deliberations was made known, the public mind would be perfectly satisfied.

NEW FOREST BILL—(No. 129.)
(The Lord President.)
NEW FOREST BILL—(No. 129.)

  COMMITTEE.
  Order of the Day for the House to be put into a Committee, read.
  THE DUKE OF SOMERSETsaid, that having on the second reading stated his objections generally to the Bill as injurious to the interests of the Crown, he did not propose now to raise any objection to the clauses.
  House in Committee accordingly; Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3a on Thursday next.
  House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.