Sitting of 30 May 1876

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN—William Gulding, esquire, for Cork City.
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Friendly Societies Act (1875) Amendment* [177]; Public Health (Ireland)* [178].
Committee—Report—Small Testate Estates (Scotland) (re-comm.)* [145]; Juries Procedure (Ireland)* [126].

EGYPT—THE SUEZ CANAL SHARES.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BIGGARasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, When he will lay upon the Table of the House details of Suez Canal Shares purchase, promised by him on an early day when the Bill authorising the borrowing of four million pounds sterling for payment was read a second time?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,in reply, said, he proposed immediately after the Whitsuntide Recess to give Notice to introduce a Bill for dealing with the Suez Canal shares, and providing for the made in which the accounts should be rendered.

ARMY—THE MILITIA BALLOT ACT.

  QUESTION.
  GENERAL SHUTEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether any measures have been taken regarding a revised Militia Ballot Act; and, if any, then
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  what progress has been made in giving effect to such measures in order to remedy the slow action of the present Act and its unequal pressure on the people? The hon. and gallant Gentleman explained that he did not mean to imply that there was any immediate necessity for a Militia Ballot. He only wished to know what would be done in case of a great national emergency.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY: In reply to my hon. and gallant Friend, I have to inform him that a draft Bill has been prepared, but no steps further have been taken in respect to it pending the Report of a Committee which is sitting upon the Militia at the present time.

ARMY—MOBILIZATION OF THE FORCES—THE ESTIMATES.

  QUESTION.
  GENERAL SHUTEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he would be good enough to give the House a supplemental statement of the details of the lump-sums scattered over the various Votes of the War Estimates to meet the cost of putting two Army Corps into the field this summer, adding such further particulars of probable expenditure as the arrangements for their mobilization would permit? of course not referring to contracts.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY: My hon. and gallant Friend says "not referring to contracts," but that is a considerable item in the matter. It will not be possible for me to give the details so fully as he requires. The whole sum that was taken in the Estimates, as I stated in moving them, was £40,700.

POST OFFICE—TELEGRAPHS—ORKNEY AND THE SHETLAND ISLANDS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. LAINGasked the Postmaster General, What is the reason of the long delay in giving the county of Orkney and Shetland the long promised extension of the postal telegraph; and, whether he can state what steps the Government is taking, and how soon those islands will be relieved from the exceptional position of being the only considerable district of the United Kingdom which is deprived of the benefit of the postal telegraph?
  Mr. W. H. SMITH,in reply, said, that within the last 24 hours the Postmaster General had been informed that the Orkney and Shetland Telegraphs Company had, after long negotiations, resolved to accept the terms offered by him. An engineer would go down this week, and it was hoped that arrangements would be made by which the postal telegraphs would be extended to those Islands.

INLAND REVENUE—GAME LICENCES.

  QUESTION.
  SIR ALEXANDER GORDONasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether he has taken steps to check the evasion of the Duty on Game Licences among persons in a certain station of life, brought to his notice by the Commissioners of Inland Revenue in their last Annual Report; and, whether he will take steps to protect, in future, the officers of Excise from the indignities and obstructions to which they are now subjected when performing their duty with respect to Game Licences, also brought to notice in the same Report.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,in reply, said, the officers of Inland Revenue did all in their power to check evasions of the duty on game licences, and when the offence was committed it was usually on private property. The paragraph in the Report of the Commissioners was inserted with the intention of enabling country gentlemen, magistrates, and others, to assist in carrying into effect the provisions of the law, which assistance, under such circumstances, they could render in a greater degree than the Inland Revenue officers.

JUDICATURE ACT, 1873—OFFICIAL REFEREES.—QUESTION.
MR. CHARLES LEWISasked Mr. Attorney General, Whether the Official Referees of the High Court of Justice have been appointed upon the understanding that they are or are not to be atliberty to carry on private practice at the Bar?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,in reply, said, that in the absence of his hon. and learned Friend, he was enabled to inform the hon. Gentleman, on the authority of the Lord
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Chancellor, that the Official Referees would not be allowed to carry on their private practice.

ENDOWED SCHOOLS—ASSISTANT MASTERS.—QUESTION.
MR. KNATCHBULL-HUGESSENasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether, when the control of the Endowed Schools was transferred in 1875 to the Charity Commissioners, they found that it "did not answer" to give the power of appeal against dismissal to assistant masters, and that they had therefore taken it away, excepting in the case of masters who had laid out large sums in boarding houses with consent of the authorities; and, whether it is true, as reported in the public journals, that the Charity Commissioners have recently approved a new scheme for the government of Felstead Grammar School, by which assistant masters dismissed by the head master are given an appeal to the governing body?
MR. ASSHETON CROSSwas understood to say that the power of dismissing the Assistant Masters was vested in the Head Master, and that the Charity Commissioners had made no alteration in this respect.

ARMY—MOBILIZATION OF THE FORCES—THE ARMY ESTIMATES.

  QUESTION.
  SIR ALEXANDER GORDONasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether he will give the House an opportunity for expressing its opinion, by a Vote, upon the propriety of adopting a measure involving so large an expenditure of public money as that which will be necessary to carry into effect the scheme called the "Mobilization of the Forces,"which he laid before the House when moving the Army Estimates for the present year, and which has been published in the official Army List for general information?
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY,in reply, said, he must take exception to the assertion that any great public expenditure would be necessary, as there was nothing of the kind. If the Army Corps were brought up to a war footing such might be the case, but nothing of the kind was intended. As the Mobilization

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  Scheme had been discussed in the House on several occasions, he did not think it necessary for him to adopt the course suggested by his hon. and gallant Friend. Moreover, the hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Captain Nolan) had given Notice of his intention to bring that subject under the discussion of the House, and his hon. and gallant Friend (Sir Alexander Gordon) could take part in that discussion.
  CAPTAIN NOLAN: I give Notice that I shall ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will give some assistance towards keeping a House on the day the Question is discussed?

THE PATENT OFFICE AND MUSEUM.

  QUESTION.
  MR. SAMUELSONasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether it is true that a Committee of the Treasury has recently considered and reported on the Patent Office Museum; whether it is a recommendation of that Committee that all objects not patented, irrespective of their importance as illustrations of the progress of science and invention, shall be excluded from that Museum; whether he is aware that the collection of all patented inventions at Washington is stated by the American Commissioners of Patents to be of little or no service; whether, in the Loan Collection of Scientific Apparatus now exhibited at South Kensington there is any separation of patented from non-patented objects; and, whether such separation is not opposed to the Fourth Report of the Royal Commission on the Advancement of Science, which recommended the formation of a general collection of Physical and Mechanical Instruments under the authority of a Minister of State?
  MR. W. H. SMITH: It is true that a Committee of the Treasury has recently considered and reported on the Patent Office, including the Patent Museum. Such inquiries and Reports are being constantly made, but they are confidential documents intended for the information of the Heads of Departments and the Government, and unless the Government lays them before Parliament it is a breach of official confidence to make the contents of them known, and largely interferes with their utility. It is a recommendation of the Committee that non-patented inventions should be ex-
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  cluded from the Museum, because the Museum is intended to be ancillary to the Patent Office Library, and both Museum and Library to be ancillary to the business purposes of the Patent Office, which is not an institution for the general promotion of science. The question of patented or non-patented objects has never been raised in forming the Loan Collection of Scientific Instruments and Apparatus at South Kensington. They have been admitted only on the recommendation of Scientific Committees of Sections.

JUDICATURE ACT, 1875—THE ELEVENTH SECTION.—QUESTION.
MR. MELDONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether his attention has been called to the case of Green v. Browning, reported in "The Times" of the 29th instant, when an action was brought in the Queen's Bench Division of the High Court of Justice by a London tradesman against a person resident in Dublin for the price agreed on for the construction of a skating rink in Dublin; if it was the intention of the Eleventh Rule in the Schedule to "The Judicature Act, 1875,"that there should be service out of the jurisdiction in such a case to bring parties resident in Scotland or Ireland to defend themselves in England; and, whether it is the intention of the Government to take any steps to have the said Eleventh Rule repealed or modified; and, if so, when may such repeal or modification be expected?
MR. ASSHETON CROSS,in reply, said, that the matter was under the consideration of the Lord Chancellor, who was consulting the Judges upon the matter to see whether something could not be done.

THE NATIONAL GALLERY—THE NEW BUILDINGS.—QUESTIONS.
MR. COWPER-TEMPLEasked the First Commissioner of Works, When the additions to the National Gallery will be finally completed and ready for use?
LORD HENRY LENNOX,in reply, said, he was happy to inform the right hon. Gentleman that the additions to the National Gallery were completed, and that the building would be handed over to the Board of Works before the end of the week. He might mention that any

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Members of the House wishing to see the new buildings might do so on presenting their cards at the door.
MR. MONKwished to know when they would be open to the public?
LORD HENRY LENNOXsaid, that would rest with the Trustees of the National Gallery, who were now rearranging the pictures.

COUNTY PRISONS (IRELAND) LEGISLATION.—QUESTION.
MR. BRUENasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, When he proposes to introduce a measure dealing with County Prisons in Ireland?
SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: I had hoped, so far as it was dependent on myself, that this measure might have been introduced at the same time as the English Bill on the same subject, and that the two Bills would proceed pari passu; but, as the English Bill cannot be introduced before Thursday, and arrangements have been entered into between hon. Members for Ireland and myself that no Irish business shall be transacted until after the 12th of June, I fear I am obliged to postpone the introduction of the Bill until that date, but it shall be introduced as soon as possible afterwards.

TURKEY—THE EASTERN QUESTION—THE PAPERS.—QUESTION.
COLONEL MUREasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, If he is able to place upon the Table any further Correspondence between Her Majesty's Government and Foreign Powers on the Eastern Question?
MR. BOURKE: In answer to the Question of my hon. and gallant Friend I have to say that Her Majesty's Government are very anxious to lay upon the Table of the House any further Correspondence on the Eastern Question at the earliest possible moment that is consistent with the public interest; but at the present time they cannot think it would be expedient to lay such Correspondence before Parliament. Perhaps, as I have received several private Notices of Questions from hon. Members with respect to the news which has arrived in this country with regard to the Throne of Turkey, I may take this opportunity of stating that I have received a copy of
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a telegram received by the Turkish Ambassador in London, and a telegram from Her Majesty's Ambassador at Constantinople, stating that the Sultan Abdul Aziz has been dethroned, and that his nephew and heir, Mohammed Murad, has succeeded to the Throne. No particulars have as yet reached Her Majesty's Government, except that there are no disturbances at Constantinople. We have also received intelligence from Salonica that the new Sultan was publicly proclaimed there this morning, and that the announcement was received with general approbation.

ARMY—MILITIA STAFF SERGEANTS—PENSIONS.—QUESTION.
MR. DEASEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether any decision, has been arrived at as to an increase in the rate of pensions to Militia staff sergeants who have never served in the regular Army; whether the rate of their pensions, which is limited to five pence a-day, was not granted so far back as 42 Geo. 3, c. 90; and, whether they will be placed on an equality in respect to pensions with the remaining portion of the permanent staff?
MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, he could not give any further answer to the hon. Gentleman than that the subject had been referred to the Treasury, who were considering the matter.

ARMY—THE QUEEN'S COUNTY MILITIA REGIMENT.—QUESTION.
MR. DEASEasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether any advertisements were published in the local or other papers with regard to supplies for the Queen's County Militia Regiment during the forthcoming training; and, whether the District Commissary General was justified in withholding information from those who desired to send in tenders, and in ignoring their letters?
MR. GATHORNE HARDY: No advertisements were published in the local or other papers. The Commissary of Supplies, under the orders of the District Commissary General, called for tenders, as in former years, from those who had previously supplied the regiment in a satisfactory manner, and these tenders were submitted to the War Office on the

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30th of March, and sanctioned on the 4th April. After the transmission of the tenders to the War Office, a Mr. Mercier applied to the District Commissary General on the 3rd April for tenders, but was informed that a contract had been already entered into for supplies. Mr. Mercier wrote again on the 5th April stating that he had applied also last year, but unfortunately the application not having been registered was overlooked. He was, however, informed that care should be taken in future to send tenders to his address. I regret that in this case the regulations requiring tenders to be invited by public advertisement were not acted upon, and I have given instruction that they shall invariably be adhered to for the future, unless time does not admit, or the supplies are too trifling to make it worth while.

THE NEW FOREST—STONEYCROSS INCLOSURE.—QUESTION.
MR. COWPER-TEMPLEasked the Secretary to the Treasury, Whether he has obtained an opinion on the legality of the recent in closure in the New Forest near Stoneycross; and, whether he considers that any of the rights of the Crown or of the commoners have been infringed?
MR. W. H. SMITH,in reply, said, it was the intention of the Government to take the opinion of the Law Officers on the question.

POOR LAW—OUT-DOOR RELIEF.

  QUESTION.
  MR. BROWNasked the honourable Member for South Leicestershire, What are the precise terms of his Resolution with reference to this subject?
  MR. PELL,in reply, said, that, as far as his mind was made up on the subject, the Resolution which he intended to move would be to the effect that it was desirable to check their regular distribution of outdoor relief, with a view to the gradual diminution of such an encouragement to pauperism and improvidence.

PARLIAMENT—THE DERBY DAY.
MR. DISRAELI: I believe I am acting in accordance with the general wish of the House when I move that the House, at its rising, do adjourn to Thursday next.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House, at its rising this day, do adjourn until Thursday next."—(Mr. Disraeli.)
SIR WILFRID LAWSONsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had informed them that he believed his Motion was in accordance with the general wish of the House. He (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) would not dispute his words, but he was quite sure that, as there was a minority who would not approve of that Motion, they would be patiently heard. He had heard, a good many debates that Session, and he had observed that the proper thing was for every Gentleman to declare that the subject on which he spoke was not a Party question. Perhaps the House would be surprised when he said that he considered this Motion to be a Party question. It was supported by the party of sentiment and it was opposed by the party of sense. Now, he said unfeignedly that he had a great respect for the party of sentiment, and he agreed with his hon. Friend the Member for Newcastle (Mr. Cowen), who, in a recent speech, said that without sentiment life would be a poor thing indeed. On this occasion the question for the House to decide was whether the sentiment was sufficiently strong and worthy of support to overcome the reasons which could be brought against the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman. That he ventured to say was just one of those Motions which ought not to be carried, or even proposed, against the feelings of a considerable and a respectable minority. In their Parliamentary and social life they always bowed to the decision of the majority; but there were occasions when it was foolish for the majority to push their opinions to such a length as to carry them out against the wishes of the minority. This was not a constitutional question, which some people believed it to be. This adjournment over the Derby was not quite 30 years old, and there had always been a considerable minority to express disapproval of the practice. He was happy to say that minority was increasing slowly, but steadily. In 1872 the minority amounted to 58; in 1874 to 69; in 1875 to 81; and if they went on at that rate they would some day have satisfaction, and upset the Motion. It was a bad precedent that this House should be called upon to adjourn in

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honour of any particular sport. Just now horse-racing was the popular sport; but some day they might be called on to adjourn in honour of pigeon shooting. Not long ago a letter appeared in The Times from Admiral Rous, in which he said that, but for a strong sense of obedience to the law, he would go 200 miles any day to see a good cock-fight. And if cock-fighting were to be in popular estimation, who knew but that some day the House of Commons would be called upon to adjourn for a cock-fight? He was encouraged to ask some hon. Gentlemen opposite to vote on that Motion even against the Government; because he had seen how nine of them, headed by the hon. Baronet the Member for Mid-Kent (Sir William Dyke), voted on a question of adjournment against their Leader the other night, and he hoped they would do so again. He regretted they could not get the Movers of Motions like this to make speeches. The right hon. Gentleman made the Motion without comment, though he was quite sure he could have given the House an interesting speech if he were so minded. They watched the proceedings of the right hon. Gentleman even during the Recess with great interest, and they were glad to be told in all the papers that he had gone to refresh himself by attending the St. Leger Race, in Yorkshire, so that he was well qualified, even better than before, to speak on the subject of this racing question. He remembered that while going to attend that demonstration the right hon. Gentleman, while in a train, came into collision, unfortunately, at the station with another railway train. The papers told them how there was great excitement and alarm at the time, and how the right hon. Gentleman never raised his eyes from the newspaper he was reading. A very fine picture it must have been to see him there, amid the crash of carriages, the smashing of engines, and the shrieks of passengers, never even raising his eyes from The Standard newspaper he was reading. He heard the right hon. Gentleman say last year, in the debate on horses, that horse-racing was a very noble and inspiriting pastime, and he had heard other distinguished men describe it as a noble, manly, and historical amusement. Now, he (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) denied that there was anything noble or exceptionally national about it.
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It was not connected in any way with the well-being, credit, or position of the country. It was not, for instance, connected with the maintenance of Church and State. He, however, read that once when a Derby winner returned to its native village in the West of England, the church bells rang a "merry peal."That, however, was not enough to make it a national question, because, he could remember that, in Lancashire, after a contested election, when the Conservative candidate was returned, the church bells rang and flags waved from all the breweries. Racing was not a noble sport. It was entirely a money-making affair. It was the same as stock-jobbing—not a bit more respectable and no worse. The Sultan of Zanzibar, on the occasion of his visit to Ascot races, remarked that in his country their horses ran in a straight course, not for money, but for the sake of emulation and the glory of winning. From all he (the Sultan) observed and heard, however, he was under the decided conviction that many lacs of rupees must have passed from pocket to pocket at Ascot. If horse-racing was not a money-making piece of business to those engaged in it, how was it that not very long since there was a memorial presented from the owners and trainers of horses to the Jockey Club requesting them to take such steps as would prevent "touts" attending training grounds and giving information to the public? If they did not want to keep the whole thing dark for the purpose of putting money in their own pockets, why did not those who promoted horse-racing put forward full information to the public as to what horses stood the best chance of winning? Let there be meetings where there should be no stakes, and where horses would run with no other object and for no other purpose than to see which might win. He read last year in a paper not at all squeamish—The Daily Telegraph—on the morning of the Derby, that "It may also be true that Epsom Downs will contain this afternoon the grandest assemblage of blackguardism on the face of the earth." Then, in a few sentences lower down, it went on to say—there was no accounting for taste—"the sight is one of the prettiest in the world." He (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) had seen blackguardism enough on a small scale without going to see it on a large scale.

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What would be thought of a Home Rule Parliament, if they could suppose such a thing, deciding to adjourn their sitting at the busiest period of the year because there was to be some horse-racing? What would be thought of a corporation or a school board if it acted in a like manner? Why, then, should they, the Imperial Parliament, give their sanction to such a proceeding? Last year somebody sent him a French newspaper after he had opposed the adjournment of the House over the Derby Day. It was stated that a revolutionary Member, "Sir Lawson, "had so acted; and the journal in question then went on to say that if such a thing were proposed in the French Assembly as to adjourn for a race on a week day there would be a charivari terrible—whatever that might mean. The astonishment seemed to be that we should adjourn on a week day. In this country they adjourned for gambling on week days, and they kept their Sundays strictly for drinking. Do not let him be misunderstood. He was not objecting, and had no business to object, to anybody in his individual capacity going to the Derby and enjoying himself to his heart's content. Let those who wished go and welcome. But what he did object to was that this House should, in its national capacity, give its sanction to racing. He made a Motion last year, and a paragraph went the round of the newspapers, saying that "Sir Wilfrid Lawson was seen going to the Derby with a green veil on and a sporting coat." He would give £100 to any man who proved it; but there was no reason why he should, not go. He could conceive it a duty to go, as it was, for instance, on the part of some members of the Press. The Pall Mall Gazette said the presence on the course of an assemblage of the first gentlemen in Europe would tend, if not to elevate the Derby from the sad condition into which it had fallen, at least to lend it some respectability, of which it stood so much in need. Charity, however, began at home, and he thought they had better make themselves respectable at home before they went to try and regenerate the Derby. The House of Commons was no missionary body, but a legislative Assembly. If any one took The Pall Mall Gazette view, and thought he could convert the blacklegs of Epsom from the error of their
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ways let him go, and he (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) wished him success in his mission. The advocates of the measure could not plead that they wanted a holiday; that would not do. They were going to break up for a week on Thursday; they were only just come back from Easter, and he was sure nobody was worked to death in that House. Besides, they must do some work to-morrow. There was the Bill of the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Smyth), the principle of which had been sanctioned by the House, and which excited more interest in the country than any measure brought before it that Session. The Government, if they had the interests of the people at heart, might give facilities for that Bill to advance a stage of it to-morrow. The Home Rulers would come down and support it, for he was sure no Home Ruler would allow his face to be seen on the Epsom racecourse. There was another Bill down for to-morrow—the Colonial Marriages Bill. The hon. Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. B. Hope) had a Notice down to oppose that Bill. They had often heard him with great pleasure on British marriages; would it not be a pleasure to come down to-morrow and hear him make a speech on colonial marriages? But, if that was not enough to keep hon. Members from voting for this measure, he hoped they would seriously consider whether it tended to the honour, the dignity, and credit of that House and to the estimation in which they were held out-of-doors. If they would but give the thing a moment's thought, they would see they were not so foolish in this opposition to the Motion of the Prime Minister; and he did hope on this occasion he should have a good following of Members from both sides of the House, who would protest by their votes against a proceeding which was somewhat inconvenient and slightly mischievous, which was altogether childish, and thoroughly contemptible.
MR. BROMLEY-DAVENPORT,in supporting the Motion for adjournment, said, he had been in the habit of going to the Derby for the last 20 years, and he intended to go to-morrow, in spite of the annual performance of the hon. Member for Carlisle. He wished the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Locke) had got up on this occasion, and administered to the opponents of adjourn-

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ment the rebuke which he administered to them before, when Mr. Thomas Hughes brought forward a similar Amendment, and when he said that they treated the subject in a sanctimonious manner. He could not say that the hon. Member for Carlisle had done that; but he could not help thinking that public business might readily dispense with the hon. Member's annual remonstrance. People might say what they liked; the Derby was regarded as a general holiday, at least in the metropolis, and he did not see why an attempt should be made to prevent Members of the House from enjoying it. The hon. Member for Carlisle had a line of his own—a very useful line, no doubt—and he ought to remember the old proverb, "Ne sutor ultra crepidam." Let him stick to temperance questions and not meddle with other matters. The hon. Member for Carlisle was supposed to have been at the Derby last year. He (Mr. Bromley-Davenport) did not say that he was; but it was a curious coincidence that while he was at Hyde Park Corner, late on the afternoon of "the Derby Day," he saw a carriage going past, in which was a gentleman in a very dusty condition, and very cheerful, who had a doll on his hat, and who bore a most marked resemblance to the hon. Member for Carlisle.
MR. ASSHETON,in opposing the Motion for adjournment, protested against the question being treated in a jocular manner. He thought it was a matter for serious consideration whether the House was justified in wasting a day for the sake of the Derby. Lord Palmerston was unable to give any better reason for such an adjournment as was now proposed than that the Derby might be said to be our Isthmian Games. It was said the officials of the House required a holiday; but as the House was about toadjourn for a week that argument did not apply. Another argument was that it was a good old custom to adjourn over Derby Day. Well, he denied that it was either good or old. When these adjournments over the Derby Day first took place the circumstances were different, as there was then not nearly so much business to transact, and a day could better be spared. Besides, those who owned the racehorses then consisted mainly of Peers and Members of the House of Commons, and
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he questioned whether the same could be said generally of the owners of the horses which ran in the race now-a-days. No sound reason had been given for the adjournment over the Derby Day. Members who wished to do so could attend the Derby as well without the House adjourning as they could attend the shooting at Wimbledon or a regatta without the House adjourning. If the hon. Member divided the House he should certainly vote with him, although he was quite certain that he would not lead his supporters to victory.
MR. JOHN BRIGHT: I am only going to add one sentence to the discussion which has taken place. I think my hon. Friend the Member for Carlisle has a special right to ask the House to consider this question in the light in which he views it. He asks us annually to consider a Bill on another subject, and he is met constantly—I do not meet him with that argument at all; I have met him with another argument—but he is constantly met with the argument that it is an absurd idea to think of making people temperate by Act of Parliament. It is the common answer to his proposition. We have found out that we cannot prevent betting or gambling, which are attended with enormous evils, by any amount of legislation which this House in past years has agreed to; but this, at least, we may do—we may avoid offering an example. We may avoid giving the sanction of this Assembly—whose character is as high as that of any Assembly in the world—we may avoid giving its sanction to an employment and an amusement which, though it may be said to be innocent in itself, yet is the cause of enormous evil in almost every town in this country. Let any Member of the House just go in his mind to any considerable town; let him go to Birmingham, or Manchester, or Leeds, or Newcastle, and he will know at once that in those towns, and in almost all towns, there is a practice of speculating and gambling in connection with horse-racing—and especially with the race of to-morrow—which is productive of incalculable mischiefs throughout the country. I have no objection to a holiday—I am rather one of the idle Members of the House, and I have no objection to an idle day; but we are about to separate for a week, and the pretence of a holiday to-morrow cannot

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therefore be offered in this case. What I object to is, that we should give our sanction as a legislative Assembly to these races. I agree with the hon. Member for Carlisle, and the hon. Member who has made observations most judicious and most creditable to himself from the other side of the House, that the character of the House would stand higher with the country, and wherever our debates and proceedings are read and heard of, if we were to abandon the custom which the right hon. Gentleman opposite proposes that we should follow; and I should be glad if the House would reject the Motion to-night; but if that should not be the result, I trust this may be the last time that it will be brought forward.
MR. R. POWER: The hon. Member for Carlisle (Sir Wilfrid Lawson) alluded several times to the Home Rulers. If we had an Irish Parliament, I will tell him what we would do; we would adjourn for every Derby, and if it was run twice a year we would adjourn twice a year. The hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Goulding) had arrived to-day in order to see the Derby to-morrow. The hon. Baronet objects to it because it is only 30 years old. Well, that is old enough for anything or anybody. The Amendment has become the perennial weed of a morbid imagination, inaccessible to reason and common sense. There has never been a Derby without a Derby dog, and some Members of this House seem to think there ought never to be a Derby without a Derby debate. I cannot understand the over-zeal for work which suddenly characterizes some of my hon. Friends. Hon. Members who oppose the adjournment always give different reasons. Some do not like to be suspected of sporting proclivities, others consider that, as legislators, they are fathers of the nation and should show no bad example to their sons, others have prejudice or ill-feeling towards the national sport, but I venture to say out of the 30 or 40 poor misguided men who will canter over the Lobby presently, there are not 10 who will not, by some accident, see the Derby to-morrow. I have been to every Derby for the last five years of my life that I have had the honour of a seat in this House; the first man I met on the course—aye, and in the betting ring—was an hon. and gal-
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lant Friend of mine who the previous night was most energetic in opposing the adjournment of the House. When I said, "You are a consistent man!" "Oh," he said, "I voted on principle last night." Well, I suppose he came to the Derby on principle also, but then sporting men are not expected or required to act on principle. But whatever their faults may be, they have not the convenient principle which some hon. Members seem to appreciate. Scotch Members might be excused for not going to the Derby. They are naturally a cool-blood, anti-sporting, anti-amusing people, and some of them would not know a horse from a mule, but that any Irishman should join the anti-Derby party is "one of those things which no fellow can understand." As an Irish Member and Home Ruler, I would be ashamed of any countryman of mine, and would certainly cut his acquaintance, who aids in any way against the adjournment of the House. In conclusion, I have three reasons against the Amendment—first, I am fond of sport, and like to see a good horse with a good man on it; secondly, I think it is the duty of every good citizen to encourage a great, ancient, and national pastime; and, thirdly, I believe I shall meet more of my constituents at the Derby than anywhere else.
Question put.
The House divided:—Ayes 207; Noes 118: Majority 89.

ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY (MR. JOHN CROKER).—RESOLUTION.
MR. BRUENrose to call attention to the case of Mr. John Croker, late Sub-Inspector in the Royal Irish Constabulary, and to move—
"That the punishment inflicted on him by reduction in rank in 1867 and subsequent dismissal from that force, for offences of which he declared himself to be innocent, without first affording him an opportunity of proving his innocence before an independent tribunal, was not just; and, in the opinion of this House, such an opportunity ought now to be given."
The circumstances under which Mr. Croker had been dismissed from the force were these:—When stationed in the town of Carlow, about the time in question, Mr. Croker experienced some difficulty in obtaining a house suitable for

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his family. After a while a house fell vacant within the town of Carlow, although out of his district, but attached to it, and without which it could not be had, were seven acres of land. The rule of the Constabulary was that no sub-Inspector should take more than three acres of land; and as the house would not be let without the whole of the land attached to it, he determined to enter upon the occupation of the premises and to give the extra four acres to his son, who was then 21 years of age. As the house, although within a few yards of the barracks, was not in Mr. Croker's district, it was necessary that he should obtain the consent of the Inspector General to live there. He went to Dublin for that purpose, and as the Inspector General was very busy at the time he told the whole of the circumstances to the private Secretary, who, having communicated with the Inspector General, came out and told Mr. Croker that it was all right. He accordingly entered upon the occupation of the house. But a few months after, when he was absent on duty, an informer wrote to the Inspector General, Sir John Wood, that Mr. Croker held more land than he had a right to do under the Constabulary Regulations; and thereupon the Inspector General, without inquiry or asking any explanation from Mr. Croker, reduced him from a first-class to a third-class sub-Inspector, involving a loss of pay of £50 a-year, and removed him to a station in the North of Ireland, thus separating him from his family. Mr. Croker remonstrated against this arbitrary and despotic act; but his remonstrances were not attended to. The case was then brought before the late Lord Mayo, then Chief Secretary for Ireland, who, on the private report of the Inspector General, which Mr. Croker had never seen, confirmed the previous sentence. It appeared that on this occasion the Inspector General had suppressed more, than half of the favourable records received by Mr. Croker during his years of service. This was a matter of some importance, because the whole course of promotion in the Constabulary service depended on the records for and against their character in the Constabulary Office. Mr. Croker had 14 records in his favour, but only six of these were submitted to Lord Mayo, while all the
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unfavourable records against him were produced. Mr. Croker, smarting under a sense of injustice, wrote a letter to the Inspector General which the latter considered insubordinate towards himself, whereupon he dismissed Mr. Croker from the service altogether. The case was subsequently brought before Lord Mayo, in 1868, who entered fully into the matter and recommended Mr. Croker to the Treasury for a retiring allowance. It appeared, however, by the Treasury Regulations that a retiring allowance could not be granted unless upon a certificate of his commanding officer that he had served with fidelity and diligence. Sir John Wood, the Inspector General, had stated that if the Government thought fit to recommend Mr. Croker for a retiring allowance he would not oppose him, and the way he kept his word was to refuse to give the certificate. Since then Mr. Croker had never ceased to protest his innocence, and to claim that the retiring allowance, which the action of the Inspector General alone had prevented him from obtaining from the Treasury, should be given to him in some way or other. He (Mr. Bruen) confessed he could not imagine what answer could be given to the case which he had laid before the House. He understood the ground the Inspector General took was that Mr. Croker was a bad officer and unfit to be in the service; but in opposition to any statement of that nature Mr. Croker could refer to the numerous recognitions of his services both from his official superiors and public bodies during the 31 years he had been in the Constabulary, and the records in the Office were in the highest degree creditable. In 1837 there was an entry praising his promptitude and efficiency in arresting a man who was lying in ambush to shoot a landlord; in 1838, for pursuing alone two men who had shot a person on the highway just as Mr. Croker rode up, and capturing one, after an exciting chase; in 1843, from the Inspector General himself, in approval of his conduct and efficiency; and, in 1848, from the magistrates to a similar effect, during a period of seven years. He believed the charges against Mr. Croker would, when investigated, be found to be of a very trivial nature. The Government, he sincerely trusted, would cause an inquiry to be made into this

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case, so that the question of the guilt or innocence of Mr. Croker might be tried by a legal tribunal. He cared not what the tribunal was as long as it was impartial, and he left the choice of it to the Government. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving his Resolution.
MR. MELDONseconded the Motion.
Motion made, and Question proposed,
"That the punishment inflicted on Mr. John Croker, late Sub-Inspector in the Royal Irish Constabulary, by reduction in rank in 1867 and subsequent dismissal from that force, for offences of which he declared himself to be innocent, without first affording him an opportunity of proving his innocence before an independent tribunal, was not just; and, in the opinion of the House, such opportunity ought now to be given."—(Mr. Bruen,)
MR. M'CARTHY DOWNINGsaid, he had never heard of the name of that gentleman before, but it appeared to him that unless the Government had facts of an entirely different character to place before the House the Motion of the hon. Member for Carlow (Mr. Bruen) ought to be acceded to. It was a Motion which concerned the welfare and efficiency of a Force upon which the maintenance of good order in Ireland was largely dependent. This was not the only case by any means in which arbitrary proceedings had been instituted against members of the Constabulary without an opportunity of appeal being given; and unless an appeal were allowed to Parliament in such cases, they would be entirely denying justice to men who had as much a right to justice as any other of Her Majesty's subjects. Great dissatisfaction already existed in the Force, and the Government's assent to the Motion would tend greatly to allay it, without implying any distrust of the heads of the Constabulary.
SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, he could not admit the existence of great dissatisfaction among the Irish Police Force, who, he believed, had the greatest confidence in the decisions of the Inspector General, which they knew would be reviewed by the Government when necessary. The course pursued was this—whenever any complaint was made against an officer of the Force it was always sent down to him with a request that he would answer it in writing, and if the matter were of sufficient importance a court of inquiry into it was held. The official Papers relating to
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this case were very voluminous, but he had gone through them most carefully and had ascertained the following facts relating to Mr. Croker's career. Mr. Croker, who was a gentleman of good family, and had entered the Constabulary Force many years ago, was referred to as far back as March, 1854, by Sir Duncan Macgregor, who was then at the head of the Irish Constabulary, as an officer who would continue to be useless and troublesome wherever he was stationed. The same officer, again referring to Mr. Croker in 1858, said that no admonitions, however severe, would make him conform to the regulations of the Force and that he was an encumbrance to the establishment. In the same year Mr. Croker was again reported for neglect of duty: but another chance being given to him he was merely reduced to the bottom of the list of first-class sub-Inspectors. In 1863 Sir Henry Brownrigg wrote a memorandum of a similar character with reference to Mr. Croker's conduct and he was again reduced two steps. In 1865 a commission of inquiry was held upon him, and he was found guilty of keeping a number of racehorses and of being so greatly involved in debt that his creditors had seized his horses in satisfaction of their claims. That he (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) considered a most serious offence. He was warned that such conduct would lead to his dismissal; but in 1867 he was again brought under the notice of the Inspector General, and charged with having disregarded the regulation which prohibited officers in the Constabulary from occupying more than four acres of land. The result was that he was reduced to the bottom of the list of second-class sub-Inspectors and again warned. In February, 1868, the Inspector General recommended Mr. Croker's dismissal in consequence of his insubordinate behaviour, in addition to a long list of previous offences, and the late Lord Mayo, after a careful inquiry into the case, concurred in that recommendation. A compassionate allowance was applied for, but was not granted, in consequence of the Inspector General not feeling himself justified in certifying that Mr. Croker had discharged his duties with diligence and fidelity, and he (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) could not blame him for not doing so. It had been stated that Mr. G. A. Hamilton, the late

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Permanent Secretary to the Treasury, was directed by the Treasury to inquire into this matter; but he (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) could not find any official trace of such direction or of any Report by Mr. Hamilton on the subject to the Treasury. A document had been circulated among Members of the House purporting to be a copy of the Report of Mr. Hamilton to the Lords of the Treasury on Mr. Croker's case. He (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) was bound to say that this appeared to him to be a very remarkable document. In the first place, it was not dated, nor, as far as he was aware, was any manuscript copy of it by Mr. Hamilton in existence. Its phraseology, though like that used in Mr. Croker's statements, was very unlike the language that would probably have appeared in a Report by an experienced official like Mr. Hamilton. In 1872 a Commission sat in Dublin on the general question of the Constabulary. Mr. Croker brought his case before them, but not conceiving themselves authorized to inquire into particular cases, they made no Report upon it. One of the Commissioners, however, the hon. and gallant Member for Longford (Major O'Reilly), had informed him that, having heard Mr. Croker's statements, the Commissioners were of opinion that he had no ground of complaint. Whether he ought to receive a compassionate allowance on the ground of his long services was another matter. He (Sir Michael Hicks-Beach) would do his best with the time at his disposal to look into the case, and no one would be more glad than himself, if consistently with the duty he owed to the public, he could advise the Government to grant a compassionate allowance to Mr. Croker.
MR. MELDONsaid, he considered that Mr. Croker had been most inconsiderately and harshly treated throughout. Even when the Lord Lieutenant had assented to the dismissal of Mr. Croker, he recommended that that officer should receive a retiring allowance from the Treasury. Sir John Wood, though he had previously promised that he would not oppose the grant of that retiring allowance, afterwards refused to sign the certificate upon which alone the Treasury were authorized to pay it. It was one of the most remarkable features in this case that so few records favourable to Mr. Croker had been found. A large
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number had been suppressed of which he ought to have had the benefit when his case was submitted to the Lord Lieutenant. Then, with regard to the unfavourable records, it was to be observed that they dated from 1849, when the late Inspector General had a son in the force under Mr. Croker. The son left duty without leave and when the men were dying of cholera, and Mr. Croker felt it necessary to reprimand him. Ever after this Mr. Croker was subjected to the harshest treatment. He had himself read statements from parties who were ordered narrowly to watch Mr. Croker and to report him for the smallest irregularity. It was not fair to say that Lord Mayo had refused Mr. Croker's Petition—in fact, he recommended the case to the Treasury.
SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: No—he sanctioned his dismissal, but recommended him for a compassionate allowance.
MR. MELDON: He sanctioned his dismissal on the distinct statement of Sir John Wood that he had been recommended for a pension. In 1868 Mr. Hamilton was deputed to investigate the case. He made the Report to the Treasury which it was now said to be a forgery. If it was a forgery, it could easily be proved to be so. Had any appeal been made on that point to Sir John Wood? The Report circulated among Members as being the Report of Mr. Hamilton had been stigmatized by the Secretary for Ireland as a forgery. That was a most unfounded charge. Mr. Hamilton was dead—had he been alive the charge would never have been made. Moreover, they had a certified copy of a letter of Mr. Hamilton bearing witness to the excellence of Mr. Croker's character. With that before them what ground had they for declaring that Mr. Hamilton's Report in his favour was a forgery? What he asked for was inquiry. There were two questions to be inquired into: first, was the charge against Mr. Croker true, and, secondly, had the records favourable to Mr. Croker been suppressed? He denied that the charge was true; but it was only in case that it was that the other question would arise, for then the favourable records would come in in mitigation of punishment. He asked, was it consistent with the English spirit of fair play that a man who had given 31 years of his life to the

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public service should be allowed to fall into indigence? for that, he regretted to say, was what awaited Mr. Croker if no further steps were taken in this matter. The only offence committed by Mr. Croker was that he held more than three acres of land, and if there were any other offences they had been condoned.
CAPTAIN NOLANsaid, he held in his hand the paper which the Chief Secretary for Ireland had insinuated was a forgery; but, if it were a forgery, nothing would be easier for the right hon. Gentleman than to prove it. Moreover, if it were a forgery, how was it that Mr. Croker had been recommended for a compassionate allowance?
SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, he had guarded himself against saying that Mr. Hamilton's alleged Report was a forgery. All he had said was that the style of the document was extremely remarkable, and that there was no trace of it in the Department.
CAPTAIN NOLANsaid, it was evident from the fact that the Chief Secretary proposed a compromise that he had his doubts in respect to what had been said in regard to the authority of the Report, for if it were a forgery he could not conceive how the right hon. Gentleman should take that course. There were other serious charges made in Mr. Croker's Petition. If there was any truth in the allegation that promotion had been given by the late head of the Constabulary in return for money lent by his subordinates, the Government ought to be most anxious for inquiry. On the contrary, if the statement were false, it was absolutely necessary for the honour of the Irish Constabulary that there should be some sort of investigation.
MR. PARNELLboretestimony to the zeal and efficiency of Mr. Croker during the time he was sub-Inspector in the county of Wicklow. On one occasion when there was a strike of the miners had it not been for him there would have been great bloodshed. He held in his hand a number of letters from men of the highest character, who described Mr. Croker as a man of honour and a gentleman.
MR. LYON PLAYFAIRsaid, he had known Mr. Hamilton, who was a gentleman and a scholar. He could not believe that the illiterate Report was his production. But this doubt was a
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reason for inquiry. And as new facts of great importance had been made known in the discussion, in justice to Mr. Croker as well as in the interests of truth, a new inquiry was desirable.
MR. VERNERsaid, that his hon. Friend the Member for Carlow (Mr. Bruen) had no intention to throw any reflection upon Sir John Wood. He hoped that after what had come out in the course of the debate the Government would accede to the Motion.
THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PLUNKET)said, it was impossible for the Government to assent to the Resolution as it stood, inasmuch as it involved a Vote of Censure not only on Sir John Wood, a distinguished public servant, but also on the Government of the day. Since the Chief Secretary had spoken several matters had been brought before the House of which his right hon. Friend was not aware when he rose to address it. He had now to announce to the House that if the present Motion were withdrawn the Government would institute such an inquiry as would, he thought, be satisfactory to all parties. He wished to mention that his right hon. Friend had, before coming down to the House, made inquiry at the Treasury, and had been informed that there was no such letter or Report as had been referred to.
MR. BRUENsaid, that under the circumstances he should, of course, withdraw the Motion. He wished, however, to mention that he himself sent the autograph letter of Mr. Hamilton to the right hon. Baronet.
SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, he had no recollection of anything of the kind. Certainly, he should not have made the statement if he had not believed it to be true.
MR. CALLANhoped the promised inquiry would extend to all the allegations contained in the memorial of Mr. Croker.
Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

THE ELECTORAL SYSTEM—BOROUGH AND COUNTY CONSTITUENCIES.

  RESOLUTIONS.
  MR. TREVELYAN,in rising to move the resolutions of which he had given Notice—

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  "1. That, in the opinion of this House, it would be desirable to adopt an uniform Parliamentary franchise for borough and county constituencies:
  "2. That it would be desirable to so redistribute political power as to obtain a more complete representation of the opinion of the Electoral body,"
  said: Sir, I hope that hon. Members will allow me to express the feeling of hesitation with which I rise to call their attention to the subject of the Resolutions which are on the Paper. Having been unavoidably and most reluctantly prevented from that daily and assiduous attendance on the proceedings of the House which alone can entitle any one, except Members of the highest standing and reputation, to a favourable and attentive hearing, it is with unfeigned diffidence that I now appear as the advocate of a question of exceptional importance, and—as I think, and as many around me think—of exceptional urgency. I should never have ventured to put myself forward on this occasion except in obedience to numerous and urgent representations from my Colleagues on these benches, and to the frequently and strongly expressed wishes of many who are outside our walls, and especially of those who, on this point have, of all others, the best right to be consulted—that large class of our fellow-countrymen who by the unwisdom, or, as I am willing rather to believe, by the negligence of a previous Parliament, have been wrongfully excluded from any share whatever in the government of their native country. It is the opinion of these men that their case cannot wait, with justice to themselves or with advantage to the nation; and I trust and hope that such will to-night be the opinion of no slender or uninfluential portion of the House. The unrepresented householders of the counties have long believed that no business on which the House has been engaged—I will almost say that no business on which the House can be engaged—is of sufficient moment to stand in the way of the consideration of their immense grievance, and the redress of their intolerable wrong. And there has been nothing in the events of this Session to alter their belief. What must have been the feelings of these men as they followed the course of the debates which this year have occupied the attention of the House, and watched us day after day, and week after week,
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  disputing with apparently inexhaustible zest over a measure which, in its very name and designation claims to be nothing more than the selection of an empty title? Is it not, they ask, an anomaly that Parliament should consume so much time and energy over an alteration in the verbal style by which we are to describe an august Personage whose effective power and influence in the Constitution the one party does not propose in the least to augment, or the other party in the least to diminish; while we turn a deaf ear to that great multitude who ask us to change for the better not their political title, but their political status; to rescue them from the humiliating position in which they now stand, possessing, as they do, the name, but unendowed with the rights of Englishmen? I suppose that we shall be told that we should not recall the attention of a House of Commons to a question upon which, by a large majority, that House of Commons has already decided; but that is a charge which we shall have no great difficulty in meeting. It has always been the wise custom of the British Parliament, in contradistinction to other national Assemblies, to give free opportunity to private Members to introduce Bills and Resolutions, and to initiate debates. And though this custom has sometimes led to a waste of public time, it has brought about one most beneficial result. Whenever any large section of the nation have set their minds upon an object which Parliament does not feel itself justified in granting, at any rate, those who have that object at heart feel that they have had the means of fully ventilating their grievance. They have had their say. They have not been condemned unheard. Above all, they have had set before them those reasons and grounds on which Parliament, acting in the general interests of the community, thinks itself bound to refuse their particular request. But that is not the case here. Whenever the householders of the Counties have come to us to ask for their political rights—and this now is the fifth time, they have met with a treatment which has a superficial appearance of being courteous and respectful, but with which we should indeed be sanguine if we expect them to be satisfied. As soon as ever their claims are mentioned there at once arises from every corner of the House a chorus of

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  eulogy. From the front benches, from the back benches, from below the gangways, from behind the Table, we hear nothing but high praises of their virtues as men, and their excellence as citizens; and the only point on which we are at issue among ourselves appears to be that while Gentlemen on this side of the House are content with asserting that the rural labourer is as fit for the franchise as the town artizan, Gentlemen opposite will insist upon it that he is a great deal fitter. But when the moment comes to put these brave words to the proof, and when the House is cleared for a division, then those advocates and representatives of the agricultural labourer who sit under the Gallery to listen to our debates go forth with the praises of themselves and their clients ringing in their ears, and return at the end of 20 minutes to learn with astonishment that these rural householders of whom we are all so proud; these models of industry, and loyalty, and patriotism, and frugality; these Cincinnatuses of the pasture and the plough, have by a majority of 70, 80, or 120 votes been adjudged unworthy of a privilege which every peasant in France has enjoyed for a generation, and every male inhabitant of the United States has enjoyed for a century. We have, then, no resource except to persevere until the House thinks fit to decide their case upon its measures, and either to confer the franchise upon the householders of the counties, or give them an intelligible explanation of the grounds upon which their title to the franchise cannot be recognized. In a matter that concerns three-fifths of the population of the United Kingdom, it is certain that sooner or later they must get what they want, or must be told plainly why they cannot have it. Hitherto the only semblance of argument with which the claims of the unrepresented county ratepayers have been met has consisted in the assertion that an extension of household suffrage into the rural districts must be accompanied by a sweeping re-distribution of seats. This argument has been employed frequently by the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government; and whenever he has employed it within these walls I have endeavoured to show that, when used by the right hon. Gentleman, it is not a very alarming argument. As Leader of the House of Commons, the right hon. Gentleman
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  himself introduced a Reform Bill, which provided for assimilating the county and the borough franchises; and the amount of redistribution which he thought sufficient to accompany this change consisted in the shifting of 15 seats from small boroughs to large counties and populous towns. He, at any rate, who in 1859, was willing to effect the identification of the borough and county franchises at such a very small sacrifice of existing interests, has no right whatever to frighten us, who, in 1876, wish to carry out the same object, by this bugbear of a wholesale an unprecedented, an almost revolutionary up-turning of our entire electoral system. But this argument, which, as I have clearly shown, goes for very little in the mouth of the right hon. Gentleman, has been used by others in whose mouths it goes for a great deal, and has hitherto exercised a very considerable influence in diminishing the numbers of the minority who have supported the Bill which I, on three different occasions, had the honour of introducing. It has been said, and said by statesmen whose zeal in the cause of justice and of progress has been proved by a consistent public career—for that assertion may confidently be made in the case both of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Greenwich and the noble Marquess the Member for the Radnor District of Burghs—that in proposing to reduce the county franchise we have only touched half the question; that we are bound to say plainly out what we think about redistribution, and not call upon hon. Gentlemen to vote in the dark for a proposition whose certain and inevitable consequences we ourselves are not prepared to face. Sir, as a general rule, none but a very simple-minded politician would adopt the course of action recommended to him by an opponent; but the noble Marquess is in our eyes not an opponent, but a Leader, whose name, we confidently expect, will soon be connected with this measure, which an ever-increasing majority of his Followers regard as a measure demanded alike by considerations of national equity and of national expediency. And therefore it is that this old matter is now brought forward in a new shape, and, for the first time since the notion of Household Suffrage in the counties was seriously started, the question of Electoral Reform has been submitted to Parliament as a whole. Of

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  course, I am very well aware that, as the debate proceeds, a new set of objections will crop up to meet the new contingency. Those hon. Gentlemen who in 1872 voted against the principle of Household Suffrage because it was asserted in an abstract Resolution, and who, in subsequent years, voted against it because it was embodied in a single-barreled Bill, will now have the pleasure of voting against it as an abstract Resolution again. But these subtle and delicate considerations will not have much effect upon the conduct of those, who having already recorded their votes against the continued exclusion of their fellow-countrymen from the pale of citizenship, are now ready to repeat that protest, even when it is coupled with a declaration that the existing distribution of political power among our constituencies might easily be altered for the better. We are not so passionately enamoured of the inequalities and anomalies of an electoral system, which, even after it has been twice altered, first by our fathers, and then by ourselves, is still by far the most inequitable and the most anomalous electoral system that anywhere exists. So glaring and so universal are its defects that it is difficult to sayin which quarter of the United Kingdom they are the most apparent. In England, 800,000 electors, in the 26 largest cities return between them 73 Members; while exactly the same number of Members are returned by 70,000 electors scattered over 55 little towns or villages which are called towns only by courtesy. In Ireland 35,000 electors, in Dublin and Belfast, return only four Members; while 22,000 electors in other Irish towns return as many as 33 Members. In Wales the vote of an elector who happens to reside in Merthyr Tydvil has only one-tenth of the weight of the vote of an elector who happens to reside in Brecon. In Scotland, the vote of an elector who lives in Glasgow has only one-eighth of the weight of the vote of an elector who lives in New Galloway. We have taken nationalities as a whole. Let us take a single county. In Yorkshire 3,200 electors in Richmond, Thirsk, Northallerton, and Knaresborough return actually twice as many Members as the 32,000 electors of Sheffield; while Keighley, and Barnsley, and Batley, and Todmorden—towns whose population is equal to that of
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  half-a-dozen pocket constituencies, and whose wealth is equal to that of a dozen and a-half—are not thought worthy to appear in the rank of Parliamentary boroughs at all. We have taken a single county. Let us take two counties and compare them together. There are ten times as many people in Middlesex as in Wiltshire, but, instead of returning only one-tenth as many Members, Wiltshire returns 15 Members to the 19 of Middlesex. There are ten times as many people in the West Riding as in Dorsetshire, but the Members for the West Riding, instead of being as ten to one to the Members for Dorsetshire, are little more than two to one. Anyone who is familiar with the talk of our Lobbies knows that many hon. Gentlemen shrink from an extension of the county franchise because they are under the impression that the re-distribution of seats which would follow upon such a measure would take the direction of diminishing the political power of the towns, and increasing the political power of rural, and, as they think, less intelligent and progressive, districts. But an examination of our existing electoral arrangements will soon convince those hon. Gentlemen that they may spare their fears. The most ingenious manipulator of statistics is welcome to spend his ingenuity on our Parliamentary Returns as long and as often as he will, for, however he may turn and torture the figures that he will find in those Returns, he can arrive at only one result. Wherever there is a district which, taking the county and the borough seats together, is over-represented by the number of Members that it returns to Parliament, it will invariably be the case that such a district is one where, by comparison with other parts of this favoured island, trade is not the most active, education is not the most advanced, wages are not the highest, and capital is not increasing with any exceptional rapidity. On the other hand, whenever a district is greatly under-represented in proportion to its population, in such a district every symptom of commercial prosperity and social and intellectual progress will be found. Let me call the attention of hon. Gentlemen to one single item of calculation which, by itself, should be sufficient to re-assure those who apprehend that a fresh re-distribution scheme will be to the disadvantage of the intel-

  1449
  ligence and independence of our great national constituency. A re-arrangement of political power, strictly based upon population, would considerably more than double the number of Members now allotted to Middlesex, to Surrey, to Lancashire, and to the West Riding of Yorkshire. Where will you match that list? Not in any quarter of the civilized world is now, or ever has been, collected together so much industry, knowledge, and enterprize, or so much material wealth—the natural fruit of those qualities—as in the four districts which I have named. Continental countries have regarded with admiration many of our institutions, and have imitated them with eagerness, and sometimes with success. They are not very likely to imitate a system under which political power is distributed among the different sections of a nation exactly in inverse proportion to the share which those sections contribute towards making that nation prosperous at home and powerful abroad. What would a German statesman think of a proposal to give to the vote of a Pole or East Prussian four times the weight that he would give to the vote of a citizen of Cologne, and ten times the weight that he would give to the vote of a citizen of Berlin? What would an Italian say to the notion of favouring Calabria and Sicily in the proportion of five to one as compared with Lombardy and Piedmont, or a Spaniard to the notion that the most scantily represented places in the Peninsula should fee Madrid, Barcelona, Seville, Valencia, and Cadiz? No, Sir, my motive in bringing forward the second of these two Resolutions, and of coupling it with that which precedes it, is to afford hon. Members an opportunity of proclaiming that they will not be deterred from extending civic rights to the excluded population of our counties, merely because the consequence of that extension may be that we shall be under the obligation of giving to Manchester and Liverpool, to Leeds and Glasgow, to Southwark and Westminster, to the wool districts of Yorkshire, the cotton districts of Lancashire, and the mining districts of Durham, something better than the mere shadow of representation with which they now are mocked; and that we shall not be frightened out of one act of justice because circumstances are such that it must neces-
  1450
  sarily be accompanied by another. And now, Sir, having secured the ground in our rear by assuring those whose general sympathies are with us that we are prepared to treat electoral reform as a whole, and deal with it as it should be dealt with, by responsible public men, we may with renewed confidence face once more to the front, and challenge hon. Gentlemen opposite to bring forward a single valid argument which may convince those who ask for admission to the franchise that their claim, if it cannot be granted, has at the least been thoughtfully and respectfully considered. One argument which has some appearance of validity, and one only, has hitherto reached my ears. It is said that if we insist upon conferring the franchise on those who have not got it already, we shall give them something which has no tangible and material value, and which they are therefore just as well without. This argument has something about it so invidious—I had almost said so repulsive—that it is usually enveloped in a cloud of phrases which may render it a little less unattractive to an English ear. The shape in which it is usually put forward is something of this sort—We are told that the House of Commons is a practical Assembly, full of common-sense men, whose time is so taken up with useful matter-of-fact legislation that it has not the leisure to attend to a grievance which is not so much one of reality as of sentiment. Sir, it is for those who suffer under a grievance to define its nature, and not for those who obstinately refuse to redress it. It is all very well for us to be contented with the relations which at present exist between Parliament and the country. We have quite as much business as we can do. We have quite as many constituents as we want. We are, most of us, conscious that we are earnestly and laboriously striving to do our duty by the great body of our countrymen, and we honestly believe that we know quite as much about the feelings and opinions of the outside public as is required to guide our deliberations. But, Sir, we must remember that this is not the first Parliament that has taken too favourable a view of the extent to which it represents the country. No one can study the debates which preceded the passing of the great Reform Bill without being

  1451
  persuaded that many of those who opposed reform were sincerely convinced that the Members for the old rotten boroughs thoroughly understood the interests and the wishes of the great unrepresented cities. No one can study the Reform debates of 1866 and 1867 without perceiving that there were many hon. Gentlemen who were sincerely convinced that the Representatives of the £10 householders thoroughly understood the interests and the wishes of the unenfranchised mass of the town population. The illusion was honourable; but none the less was it an illusion; and I will venture to say that there are many borough Members in this House who will willingly confess that Household Suffrage has had an unexpected influence on their political conduct, and to a most unlooked-for extent has added to their political knowledge. And if we are obliged to make this confession, and to couple it with the natural and inevitable deduction that, if Household Suffrage were extended to the counties, we should learn a great deal that we did not know before, what do we think must be the aspect of the situation to those who view it by the light of a great wrong inflicted upon themselves? Who, standing outside the fence of political privilege, are doomed to hear their dearest interests discussed in an assembly in which they have neither part nor parcel, and their condition in this world, social, moral, and material, settled for them, without their once having the opportunity of expressing their own wishes in the matter? Why, what are the questions of this Session, and what portion of our population do they especially affect? Among the first measures which were submitted to us from the Treasury bench was a Bill relating to the preservation of commons. Now, Sir, for one piece of waste land which is valuable as a recreation ground of a neighbouring town or city, there are 20 which are important to the agricultural labourer as a playground for his children, and a pasture for his scanty live stock. And yet, in discussing the Commons Preservation Bill, we hear everything that has to be said by the Representatives of those whom it concerns but little; while those whom it concerns most have absolutely no Representatives at all. The most important matter which we shall have to decide this year is the extension
  1452
  throughout the country of some form or another of obligatory education, and the process by which, and the authorities by whom, the obligation is to be enforced. But already the immense majority of our town population lives under a system of compulsory education. That problem, broadly speaking, is already settled as regards the towns; it is for the rural districts that we are now proceeding to legislate, and in the rural district not one in 100 of those whom our educational legislation will touch has the means, directly or indirectly, of making his voice audible within these walls. There is another matter which has not, indeed, been brought forward by the Government, but which has been debated so ably and so seriously, both here and in "another place," and has provoked such a large and evenly-balanced expression of Parliamentary opinion, that it cannot fairly be denied a rank among the questions of the day. The law under which burials are to be conducted in our churchyards is one which, however keenly it may be contested on the ground of abstract principle, as a practical matter concerns the smaller towns but little, and the larger towns not at all, but which gains its material importance from its bearing upon the sentiments of our rural population, and it is precisely those sentiments at which we can do nothing more than guess so long as the country householders are unrepresented here; and as it is in the present, so it has been in the past. Every succeeding Session places on the Statute Book a fresh crop of laws—well-meant, indeed, and often well devised—which regulate the lives of our rural population, but on the scope and the details of which in this country is called self-government, their opinion is never so much as asked for. One year, by our system of short enlistment, we entirely altered the conditions of our military service, without consulting the class from whom the recruiting agent draws the largest part, and the best part, of our rank and file. Another year we dealt, for good or for evil, with the licensing system of the country, without consulting the class from whom the village publican draws his customers, or his victims. Sanitary laws are passed for the prevention of the spread of infectious disease, which entail on the agricultural labourer trouble, and worry,

  1453
  and expense, but to the framing of which he has just as little to say as the cattle have to say to the Circulars on the foot-and-mouth disease which the Privy Council may judge fit to issue. Game laws, enclosure laws, vaccination laws, poor laws, registration laws—from the cradle to the grave, the rural householder lives under the dominion of enactments which are passed for him, and not by him, and in which, freeman as he is called, he has no part except to obey them. Surely it is high time that Parliament, recognizing those disadvantages in his position which I have feebly and briefly endeavoured to indicate, should, by giving its adhesion to these Resolutions, hold forth to him at least a pledge that, at the first convenient opportunity, he shall be raised to the same political level as the peasantry of France, of Germany, of Switzerland, of the United States—of every nation, in short, which can for a moment compete with his own in the race of enlightenment and civilization. Sir, it has been said that there is no demand for this measure; but I shall leave that allegation to be answered by those hon. Gentlemen who were present at the meeting at Exeter Hall on Wednesday last, and at the Conference which preceded it. Never, I will venture to say, has there been a demonstration in favour of any public object which, in one sense, so merited the respectful notice of the Legislature; for never perhaps before was so large a body of men collected together at such cost and inconvenience to themselves. When we remember how slender are the finances of a cottager in a rural village, even when they have been eked out by the sixpences and shillings of the neighbours of his class whom he has been chosen to represent, I think that we shall allow that this assemblage of agricultural labourers, who have travelled at their own charges from Dorsetshire, Cheshire, and Lincolnshire, deserves at least as much consideration as those troops of well-to-do gentlemen in broad cloth, who flock up to London for public business on the eve of the Derby day. It is a very hard thing that we should force these poor men to leave their work, which is not overpaid to that degree as to give them much margin for political leisure, in order that Session after Session and Parliament after Parliament they may hang about our lobbies and haunt our galle-
  1454
  ries, pressing us to grant them a demand, the intrinsic justice of which none of us disputes. The peasantry of this country have not the time or the taste for being members of these annual deputations. Their object is to have a permanent deputation, which may watch their interests and speak their mind at Westminster, in old constitutional shape of county Members, whom they have had their share in sending to Parliament. That is what they want. That is what they have a right to get; and I am sure that, whoever may think fit to refuse them this boon on the ground that there is no call for it, such a response will never be heard from the Members of that great Party, whose historical policy it has been to anticipate the demands of justice, and to grant, in obedience to reason and equity, concessions which must sooner or later be yielded to political expediency and political pressure. On the 4th of March, in the year 1790, it was proposed to amend the representation by a scheme, the essential part of which consisted in extending the franchise to the resident householders of the counties; and on that occasion Mr. Fox pronounced that "he thought the outline of the present proposition the best of all which he had yet heard suggested." Such, nearly three generations ago, was the view of that great statesman, the father of modern English Liberalism; and we, on this side of the House, may feel confident that by assenting to the Resolutions before us, we shall be faithful to the interests of our country, and true to the tradition of our Party. The hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the first of the Resolutions.
  MR. FAWCETT,in seconding the Motion, observed, that it would not be well for its supporters to underrate the difficulties with which they had to contend, or the obstacles they had to surmount. It might be that his hon. Friend had added to those difficulties by associating with the proposal for an extension of the franchise the proposal for a redistribution of political power; but, in doing so, he could not but think that his hon. Friend had acted with great judgment. Heretofore, an abstract Resolution or a Bill in reference to the extension of the suffrage had been invariably met with one argument to the effect that that subject could not be considered separately from the subject of a re-

  1455
  distribution of seats. That argument had been used last year by the Prime Minister. It had also been urged by the noble Lord the Leader of the Opposition, and the opinion expressed by the noble Lord was shared by many hon. Members on that side of the House. The two questions should be considered together, because if they extended the suffrage simply they would increase the anomalies and inequalities of the electoral system; they would add to the existing inadequacy of county representation, and, in the case of populous towns not separately represented, they would more and more swamp the rural element by urban votes. In 1867 there was a small movement towards re-distribution, and it was then said that a larger measure in that direction would be taken up afterwards; but, notwithstanding, nothing more was ever heard of it until there began to be a talk of a further extension of the suffrage. It was injustice more keenly felt when a man had no vote because he lived on one side of an artificial boundary, whilst his friend who lived on the other had a vote; there was the injustice of a vote having only one-tenth the force that another vote in a smaller borough had. It might be asked why they were not content to do one thing at a time, and the answer was, that even if they secured an extension of the franchise in the first instance, they could not be sure of obtaining afterwards a comprehensive re-distribution of political power. They should no doubt be told that in order to be logical, it was necessary to go beyond household suffrage, and demand equal electoral districts, since nothing short of such a measure would give equality of representation. It seemed to him that to press such an argument upon the House was most unfair, because every one knew that no political question was ever determined in this country by the political necessities of the case. Such an argument would have been equally forcible on the occasion either of the first, or the second, Reform Bill. It was also said, and with some truth, that those who advocated a re-distribution of seats were bound to show how the present inequalities were to be redressed and to indicate the nature of the reforms they had in view. He was not going on the present occasion to sketch out the details of a new Reform Bill; yet, he would not shrink from enumerating
  1456
  some of the general principles of such a measure. He had no right to speak for anyone but himself; but he thought he could show that a juster distribution of political power might be attained without any tendency towards equal electoral districts or the destruction of those local associations which were so dear to many hon. Members. It would hardly be disputed that towns with 500,000 inhabitants, or divisions of counties like the South Western Division of Yorkshire with 400,000 inhabitants, should have more political power than they now enjoyed. It was also desirable that the present constituencies should be preserved as far as possible, and that, instead of disfranchising the smaller boroughs, that they should be wherever it was practicable, grouped with other towns and places. The large unrepresented towns, by becoming representative boroughs, would be taken out of the counties, and something would be done to remedy an inconvenience at present complained of. If large counties and boroughs obtained more Members, he was so anxious to avoid equal electoral districts that he would do nothing to destroy the integrity of those county and borough constituencies, and if, for example, a large town returned five Members, he would not divide that town into five wards, with a Member for each ward. In those great constituencies, moreover, which ought to have four or fire Members some plan should be adopted so as not to give the representation entirely to the majority, but to enable all important sections of political opinion to exercise the political power which was fairly their due. Those who advocated the present Resolutions would admit that whenever this question came to be dealt with by a Government, many collateral questions would have to be raised. If, for example, a uniform suffrage were adopted in counties and boroughs, there could not be a vestige of a reason why the non-resident qualification in counties should be maintained. At the present time no less than 10 per cent of the voters in counties were non-resident, and it had always appeared to him a matter of great injustice that a man who perhaps represented a purely fictitious qualification, should be able to neutralize the vote of some resident of a county whose life had been spent there. Probably the argument

  1457
  that would be most advanced against his hon. Friend would be that his proposals were abstract Resolutions. But had his hon. Friend embodied his proposals in a Bill, he would have been told that, as a private Member, he had been guilty of great presumption in bringing forward a scheme of Parliamentary reform. That, however, was an argument which he should be surprised to hear advanced from the Treasury Bench, because its occupants when in opposition were the great advocates of abstract Resolutions, and there was nothing that helped them so much into power as the abstract Resolutions they were perpetually moving respecting local taxation and local government. Then, too, it must be remembered that this House was not only a Legislative Assembly; it was a great Representative Assembly where the opinions and the feelings of the people found their most legitimate and constitutional expression. Perhaps at the present moment the question was not ripe for the Government to undertake; but if there was a strong—he did not say a predominant—feeling in the country in favour of these proposals, it would be wrong that such a feeling should not find expression in this House. When a deputation waited on Earl Russell in 1866, many wishing that his Reform Bill should go further, that distinguished statesman asked how many Members of the House of Commons were in favour of such an extreme opinion as household suffrage; and somebody answered, "Not 40."Yet, within a year and a-half from that time the Prime Minister had educated his 40, and 350 Members of the House of Commons supported household suffrage, thus enabling the right hon. Gentleman to perform the greatest achievement of his life. He should not venture to predict when the minority of to-night would grow into a majority, but that it would become so no one could doubt, and all the more rapidly the oftener the subject was discussed. Perhaps his hon. Friend had confined his remarks too strictly to the rural labourers, for, as the Prime Minister pointed out, this was also the case of the urban population, the expediency of whose admission to the franchise nobody disputed. During the last 20 years he had attended many public meetings as large as that held on Wednesday last; but he unhesitatingly asserted that he
  1458
  never attended one at which greater enthusiasm and greater earnestness were displayed, accompanied with so much moderation, sober judgment, and sound sense. At some former period doubts were entertained as to the desirability of conferring the suffrage on the rural labourers. These doubts must be removed by the conduct they had exhibited during the last few years. There had never been a greater industrial dispute in this or any other country in which so much good sense, sobriety, and desire to avoid violence had been displayed as had been by the agricultural labourers in their recent efforts to obtain an advance of wages. He hoped, in conclusion, that the House would support the Motion of his hon. Friend.
  MR. SPEAKER: Does the hon. Member for the Border Burghs propose that the Resolutions should be put separately or not?
  MR. TREVELYAN: I propose that they should be put separately, Sir.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That, in the opinion of this House, it would be desirable to adopt an uniform Parliamentary Franchise for Borough and County Constituencies."—(Mr. Trevelyan.)
  MR. DALRYMPLEsaid, he did not propose to follow the speech of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, a speech which did no less than shadow forth a Reform Bill. He had listened, as he always listened, with great pleasure to the speech of his hon. Friend who had introduced the subject, and he ventured to say that if eloquence of statement and brillancy of illustration could insure success, he might fairly look for a triumphant majority. The object he (Mr. Dalrymple) had, however, in now rising was to explain why, having voted for the Bill of his hon. Friend in 1874, he intended to vote against his Resolution to-night. Though this was his intention, he remained of the same opinion as before, and in no way repented of his former vote. He could not see how, if in 1867 household franchise should have been given to boroughs, it could be refused to counties at the proper time. He did not speak of parts of the country with which he was unacquainted; but he had in his mind two towns in a Scotch county, separated by some three or four miles. In one there was household suffrage, be-

  1459
  cause it happened to belong to a group of Parliamentary burghs, and in the other, where the people were of a superior character, the county franchise prevailed. It was almost as remarkable as where a man on one side of a hedge had a vote, and a man on the other had not. It was nothing to the purpose if it were said that the agricultural labourer, from want of education, was not fitted to have a vote; for in 1867 the suffrage was given to a large number of persons notoriously but little fitted to exercise it. Granted that his hon. Friend would give the franchise to persons not fitted for it, he would also enfranchise persons who were well qualified to use it. There was as much to be said against the Motion, and no more, as there was against the Household Suffrage Bill in 1867. He knew that these matters were not settled by consideration of logic. He knew that the franchise was not a panacea for all evils, social and political. He repudiated the notion that the franchise was an educator. It would be just as true to say that it was a great demoralizer, because there were evils connected with popular election He could not agree with the hon. Member for the Border Burghs when he said that because a man had not a vote therefore he was unrepresented in the House. He did not take so lofty a view of the franchise, nor so low a view of representation. Many a man might be thoroughly represented in the House who had not a vote. He should think himself a poor Representative indeed, if he could only represent the class to which he belonged. He supposed the Members who claimed to represent the working men did not assert that they represented them only; and it was as absurd to say that because a man had not a vote, therefore he was unrepresented, as it would be to say that because a Member of a particular class was not in the House, therefore that class was unrepresented. It was a poor compliment to the intelligence and generosity of those who sat in the House to say that they only represented the class to which they belonged. What the hon. Member said on that point, if carried out, would point to universal suffrage; because as long as any number of persons were without the suffrage, it might be said even of the extreme residuum that they were unrepresented in Parliament.
  1460
  Further, though he sympathized two years ago, and still sympathized, with the proposition to equalize the country and borough franchise, he must express his strong dissent from some of the proceedings which took place at a public meeting held last week in another part of London. Many statements were there made of an exaggerated and irresponsible character, which rather brought discredit than honour on a great movement. It was not the comparatively moderate proposal of his hon. Friend, but manhood suffrage that was approved. ["No, no!"] He knew that the meeting wisely and judiciously guarded itself against any resolution in favour of manhood suffrage, but many who were present pointed to manhood suffrage as the glorious goal they had in view, and towards which the movement of his hon. Friend was a mere fingerpost and stepping-stone. But, apart from all the exaggerations with which it was surrounded, he believed, when the proper time arrived, his hon. Friend would be found to have justice on his side. He had supported his hon. Friend in 1874, but he was not prepared to vote with him to-night, and it was that course which he (Mr. Dalrymple) had risen to explain. He would, however, reserve to himself that liberty and independence which he had before exercised in regard to the subject. The question did not now stand where it did in 1874. He thought that when Parliament had once expressed its opinion on the subject, as the House then did in a most significant manner, the decision should hold good while the Parliament lasted. The present was not a question within the domain of practical politics during the present Parliament, and he believed it was quite hopeless to think of carrying the equalization. But other considerations demanded attention. The Government had set to work, in fulfilment of many pledges, to carry out practical legislation. A Bill for increased education had been introduced into the House, and he could not help hoping that increased provisions for compulsory education might be introduced; but if the agricultural labourer had the opportunity of voting in the abstract, he (Mr. Dalrymple) doubted whether he would be in favour of compulsory education. Again, if the question were really before Parliament, a whole Session would be occupied with its con-

  1461
  sideration. The present Government had shown that they were not afraid of an extension of the franchise. In 1867 they gave household suffrage in boroughs. It might be said, and had been said, that the Conservative Party did the work of the Liberal Party. But in 1867, by a majority of 21, household suffrage in boroughs was carried against the vote of the Liberal Party. It was not, therefore, impossible for the Government to deal with the matter. But they did not come into power to disturb the franchise, and while at least they would not consent to have their hand forced, for anything he knew they were at present satisfied with the political machinery they had. Whatever the result of the vote might be, his hon. Friend might console himself with more than one reflection. Whenever the equalization of the county and burgh franchise took place his name would be mentioned in connection with the subject. Whatever might be the decision of the House that night—and no one could doubt what it would be—there were a number of Gentleman on the Conservative side of the House who had expressed themselves in favour of equalization; and many would vote in favour of it when the proper time arrived. For himself, he might say that he never gave any pledges on the subject. A vote given in 1874 in favour of equalization had probably offended as many persons as it gratified. He (Mr. Dalrymple) remained of the same opinion on the subject as he formerly held; but the time had clearly not yet arrived for the change which the Motion pointed to, and he held that it was not in accordance with political wisdom to urge on the question year after year against the clearly-expressed opinion of Parliament.
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKEobserved, that he had never in his Parliamentary experience listened to such an extraordinary speech as that of the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down. Whatever else the hon. Member might be, he was certainly not the man one would choose to go tiger-hunting with. The hon. Member had supported the Motion of his hon. Friend two years ago, and the only reason why he was not prepared to do so now was that Parliament had then pronounced against it. He had said that household suffrage in the boroughs was carried by the Conservatives; but the fact was that the Conservatives were in a
  1462
  minority when household suffrage was carried, and but for action in the Tea Rooms of a large number of persons who had been Radicals all their lives, it probably would not have been carried at all. Then the hon. Gentleman made a most unfounded attack on the late meeting at Exeter Hall. There was no foundation for the statement that all the chief speakers had manhood suffrage in their minds.
  MR. DALRYMPLEsaid, he made no such statement. His knowledge of what occurred at this meeting was not derived from newspaper reports which might mislead, but from one who like the hon. Baronet was present. What he said was that the meeting guarded itself against adopting manhood suffrage, but that persons present, not the most obscure, pointed to it.
  SIR CHARLES W. DILKEsaid, he wished the hon. Gentleman had named those persons; he was present, and he heard nothing of the kind. An Amendment, no doubt, was moved in favour of manhood suffrage, but it was only supported by eight votes. The real point, however, of the argument of the hon. Member who had just sat down was that he and his Party would vote for the proposal of the hon. Member for the Border Burghs when the proper time came. It seemed, however, that the proper time had arrived two years ago, when the hon. Gentleman voted in favour of the Motion; and when the question was taken up by the front Bench opposite, no doubt, the proper time would have arrived once more. To-night the House would have to argue it altogether as a question of time. It could not be contended by hon. Members opposite that the rated householders in the counties were not fit to exercise the franchise, seeing that the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government had himself said that they were as fit to exercise that trust as were the rated householders in the boroughs. The real reason for the opposition to the Motion of the hon. Member for the Border Burghs was that the question of re-distribution underlay that of the franchise, and it was for that reason that he (Mr. Trevelyan) had placed a re-distribution Motion on the Paper, coupling the two things together. The Prime Minister had thrown out a challenge on the subject, and that challenge had been accepted, a complete scheme being

  1463
  brought forward. The bugbear which had been conjured up in connection with a complete and logical scheme was the effect which it would have in diminishing the number of Representatives in certain counties. But the whole class of county Members, with the exception of three or four from Scotland, would be unaffected; the Members for the large boroughs also would be unaffected, and it was only Members for the small boroughs in Ireland and England who would be touched. He had presented a remarkable Petition that day from Midhurst and Chichester, in which it was stated that political life was extinct in those boroughs, and that they were entirely in the hands of certain great families. But no one who knew the county from which the hon. Baronet the Member for Midhurst (Sir Henry Holland) came could doubt, no matter how the county was divided, that he would obtain a seat; and so it would be with most hon. Members who now had seats in the House. It should be remembered that the anomalies mentioned that evening were not only enormously great, but were rapidly increasing, as appeared by a Return for which he had moved. The small constituencies were standing still or going back, while the large constituencies were increasing at a rate of which hon. Members were hardly aware. For instance, Liverpool in 1872 had 48,000 electors; in 1873, 53,000; in 1874, 56,000; in 1875, 59,000; it had now 61,000, thus increasing at the rate of 3,000 a-year. How many small boroughs would it take to make up 3,000 electors? Very lately there was an election in Manchester, and his hon. Friend (Mr. Jacob Bright) was returned by exactly 300 times as many votes as the hon. Member for Portarlington (Captain Dawson-Damer), who obtained a seat by 76. While in some constituencies candidates had secured 21,000 votes, and yet had been defeated, 76 votes and 86 votes had sufficed to send two Members to the House. Twenty-eight Members sat for constituencies with more than 20,000 electors; 72 sat for constituencies with more than 10,000;and 52 sat for constituencies with fewer than 990 electors. The Committee on Parliamentary and Municipal Elections, of which he was Chairman, had taken evidence on the working of the Ballot in large as compared with small towns,
  1464
  and that evidence showed that it was useless to attempt to make provisions against intimidation and corruption in very small constituencies, because they were so easily manipulated and managed; and the same reason led to the abuse of the provision for taking the votes of illiterate voters, in whose cases intimidation was made stronger than it ever had been before. These difficulties disappeared with the increase of the size of constituencies, until in one of fair average size the attempt to follow individual voters and discover how they had voted was abandoned as useless. The anomalies which existed in our representation were a scandal to the country. It was a crying scandal that boroughs should be bought and sold as was frequently the case. He had known of an instance in which landed property was put up for sale, and as an inducement to purchase it was distinctly stated that the property carried with it the representation of a particular borough—indeed, the fact was stated in Parliamentary handbooks. The supporters of the Motion, therefore, thought that not only were they right in bringing forward the question of redistribution along with the proposal to assimilate the county and borough franchises, but also that the re-distribution of political power would be a wise just reform in itself.
  MR. BURTsaid, he thought that the hon. Member who had brought forward this Motion had done well in dealing with the question of re-distribution of seats, because the Prime Minister two years ago declared that his chief objection to the Bill then introduced was that there had been no instance of extensive enfranchisement without a simultaneous consideration of the re-distribution of political power. He trusted that as that objection had been met, the right hon. Gentleman would not discover any new objection. He did not desire to argue the claim to enfranchisement on the ground of abstract right, although he believed, with the right hon. Member for Greenwich (Mr. Gladstone), that every man not presumably incapacitated by some consideration of personal unfitness or public danger, was morally entitled to come within the pale of the Constitution, and he had never yet met with the man who did not believe that he was one of those who had the moral right. In reply to what had been said

  1465
  by the hon. Member for Bute (Mr. Dalrymple), he would quote the advice of Lord Palmerston—"Yield to-day that which is reasonably demanded, and resist to-morrow that which you would be borne out in resisting; do not let us put ourselves in the wrong to-day merely that we may find ourselves in the right to-morrow. "The Members of the present Government having in 1867 brought forward a Bill based on household suffrage, it was not unreasonable to ask them now to carry out the principle they had formerly adopted as their own. If it were to be suggested that working people in the counties were ignorant, he would reply that we had not laid down any educational test for the franchise. It might be that some who had it in virtue of their material possessions were educationally less fitted to exercise it than some who claimed it. He was much gratified to hear the right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister declare two years ago that, in his opinion, the householders in the counties were as fit to exercise the franchise as those in the towns, and he had no doubt would exercise it with equal prudence and advantage to the community. He could say, from experience, that the best portion of the working classes in this country thought they were unjustly excluded from the right, or, as some would call it, the privilege, of voting for Members of Parliament. They petitioned and they held demonstrations; and one recently held in the metropolis was a spontaneous one, got up without organization, and attended by delegates whose expenses were paid by the pence of their fellow-workmen. Hoping that he might be excused an apparent breach of good taste, he would mention his own case. From the age of 10 to that of 28 he worked in a coal mine, and for the last eight years he was a householder, but, although he took an earnest interest in political questions, he was on no Parliamentary or municipal register. When he was 28 years of age he took the position, at the earnest request of his fellow-workmen, of secretary of a trades union. Now, the significant fact was that, though he had taken an active interest in the political questions of the day during the time he was earning his bread by the sweat of his brow, he was never on the political register; but as soon as he became a trades union secre-
  1466
  tary he was put at once on the register and obtained the right to vote for the election of a Member of Parliament. He did not know whether hon. Members thought that a hard-working man, honestly maintaining his family, was a less worthy member of society than a trades union secretary; but such was not his opinion. In his judgment nobody could take a more honourable place than the man who earned his bread by the labour of his hands. His (Mr. Burt's) former position was similar to that of tens of thousands at the present time and these men considered that the deprivation of the franchise was a stigma on their poverty. The broad line of distinction between the voters and the non-voters in a country village was this. The voters lived in big houses and never soiled their hands by manual labour; whereas the non-voters lived in the small houses, and were the people who tilled the fields and performed the manual labour of the country. He appealed to hon. Members on both sides of the house to remove this injustice. The working classes did not desire patronage or favouritism, but they wanted fair play, and they did not believe they were fairly treated at the present moment. They did not entertain those chimerical notions by which the workingmen of some other countries were carried away. They did not envy the rich man his wealth. They did not care for social equality, but they believed in political equality, and in having equal civil rights with their fellow-countrymen. They might be very ignorant of the history of their country; but they had learnt that a good cause wisely and persistently advocated was irresistible, and must ultimately prevail. In conclusion, he appealed to the House to confirm them in that belief, and to show them that they could attain their object by a peaceable appeal to the justice of their fellow-countrymen and without resorting to riot or turmoil.
  SIR WALTER BARTTELOTsaid, everybody must have been glad to hear the speech of the hon. Member for Morpeth (Mr. Burt), who had gained the respect of the House by the able way in which he had always addressed it; and if every working man could boast of having done as much as the hon. Gentleman, he, for one, should have nothing to say against the present Motion. But all were not in the same proud position

  1467
  as that of the hon. Member for Morpeth. The Motion was intended to add 1,000,000 voters, according to some, or at least 1,100,000 or 1,200,000 voters, according to others, to the constituencies of the United Kingdom. Consequently, a very great re-distribution of political power would be necessary, and the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Border Burghs (Mr. Trevelyan) was wise in his generation when he added a second barrel to his gun. Was it expedient at the present time again to tamper with and alter the Constitution of the country? The Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett) said it was absolutely necessary to do so, but this he entirely denied. He did not know what the alleged anomaly was. [Laughter.] The right hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. John Bright) smiled at this statement; but he would ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he considered a vote to be a right or a trust, and whether it ought to be local or universal? For his own part, he maintained that it should be local; that a vote ought not to be the property of any one individual; and that it ought to be various, and not uniform. If it was various, and not uniform, where was the anomaly of which hon. Members opposite complained. Last year the hon. Member for Hackney said he was anxious that the franchise should be extended, not on account of the agricultural labourers, but in order that votes might be conferred on artizans who lived outside the towns. He ventured, however, to assert that, as a general rule, this particular class had votes at the present moment. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bradford (Mr. W. E. Forster) went further, saying that if these men had votes education would be in a very different state from what it was now. The great difficulty was with the parents, and no doubt in many instances great excuses might be made for them, but they were the chief difficulty; and if this class of men were permitted to return Members to that House, the last thing they would think of would be the question of education. ["No, no!"] If hon. Gentlemen opposite had had a practical acquaintance with the difficulties school managers in the country had to contend with they would come to a different conclusion. [Mr Greene: Why do they want coercion?] Well, when a working man was supported by the
  1468
  labour of his children it was a great sacrifice to give that up, as he admitted he ought to do, for the sake of educating his children. There was no class of men more anxious than the landlords to promote the welfare of the labouring classes. The truth was, that men in the country never had the same means of educating themselves for the exercise of the franchise that those in the towns had; and even in towns many of those who possessed the franchise voted "yellow" or "blue," as the fancy took them, or rather as they always had done, without having the slightest idea of politics. He knew an instance in which a Member now sitting in the House had asked a man for his vote, on which the latter replied—"I never had a vote afore, and now I means to keep it. "He, at all events, did not mean to part with it for nothing. Education would in time do much to fit the agricultural labourer for the exercise of the franchise; but to give it to him at present would change him from a happy, contented, and an honest man to something very much worse. Much had been said about better cottages, but experience showed that where the best had been done to place the working people in a comfortable cottage they would, if possible, let their extra room to lodgers, or fill it with apples and onions. The great object of all these proposed changes was to improve the representation of that House, and it was a very serious question whether they would effect that purpose. He maintained that there was not a class in the country whose interests did not receive the greatest attention from the House, which was always anxious to do what was just, right, and fair by every member of the community. If this proposed change would not improve the constitution or the conduct of the House, he urged upon hon. Members not to bring about an agitation which might eventually have most mischievous results, without waiting to see the full effect of the very large reforms which had been recently effected.
  MR. LOWE: The change which we are invited by this Resolution to make is no slight one. I hold in my hand a pamphlet written by a gentleman of great ability, in which it is calculated that the effect of the proposed measure would be to treble the number of voters in the counties. Now, that is a very

  1469
  serious consideration, because it really amounts to a complete shift, so to speak, in the centre of gravity of power—it is an enormous change in the balance upon which the working of our Constitution depends. Under these circumstances, it is not unreasonable to ask for some reason to be given before we accept that change. I have listened with the greatest attention to the two hon. Members who commenced this debate—the hon. Member for the Border Burghs (Mr. Trevelyan) and the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. Fawcett), and I confess that I can find in their speeches no reason at all alleged for this change. Doubtless, they have reasons which appear to them to be convincing, because they evidently speak under the strongest possible conviction that this change would be beneficial to the community at large. They, however, appear to assume that the burden of proof lies upon those who withhold from any Englishman of good character and of the proper age a right to the franchise. That appears to them to be a proposition so self-evident that they do not take the least trouble to prove its soundness, but content themselves by declaiming against those who do not admit it as a matter of course. I hope I am not too inquisitive when I ask these hon. Members to tell us upon what principles their opinions are based. I want to know why it is to be assumed that every man ought to have a vote who is not disqualified by some fault or incapacity. I confess I am at a loss to understand whence that assumption arises. I heard with the greatest pleasure the speech of the hon. Member for Morpeth (Mr. Burt), because he seemed to feel that it was necessary before he asked us to adopt this very strong measure to lay some foundation in reason and argument fordoing so, and thus, so far at all events, he carries away the prize of reason and logic from the two hon. Members. The hon. Member, doubtless, placed the matter on the ground of abstract right, and argued that every man ought to have a vote in the affairs of his country, whether his possessing it were for the advantage of his country or not. If that were the case, we could not limit that right to men, but must extend it to women and even to children, and we should cease to be guided by experience and expediency. I therefore cannot agree with the hon.
  1470
  Member's argument, although it is creditable to him that he has sought to base his opinion upon a principle. What are the other grounds upon which we have been asked to accept this Resolution? We have been told that we may learn something from the representatives of the agricultural labourers. It is doubtless a good thing to learn; but we do not come here to learn, we come for other purposes, to act and to legislate. Some people say that the franchise is a privilege that ought not to be withheld from the agricultural labourer. I, however, have yet to learn that the vote is a privilege, and is something that is to be given to people as a mark of distinction or reward. The whole of the arguments in support of this Resolution resolve themselves into some vague feeling of equality or of rights. The fallacy that runs through the whole of these arguments is this, that people think there is such a thing as science in politics—that there are certain axioms in politics so certain that they need only be stated without requiring any proof whatever. I hope the hon. Member for the Border Burghs will excuse me if I take his uncle's opinion (Lord Macaulay), rather than his—namely, that we know nothing of polities except by induction and experience. If we find that a certain thing has constantly happened we infer that the same thing will happen again under similar circumstances. Thus we have found that to tax people equally is the way to make them pay their taxes most readily and to make them pay the largest sums, and that to make no distinction of persons in the eye of the law is the best way to make them obey the law willingly. But where has our experience shown us that an Assembly is good in proportion to the largeness of the numbers by which it is elected? I know that upon these questions I hold doctrines which are unpopular, and I am sorry for it; but it is most right and proper that in this House all sides should be heard, and therefore I will in a very few words tell the House what my theory of the franchise is. Hon. Members who have taken part in this debate have said nothing about the franchise itself, they have referred only to the persons who they say ought to exercise it. They look upon it as an honour, as something to be given, or, rather, they think that to withhold it is to cast a stigma upon those to whom it

  1471
  is not given. I hold that to be an entirely mistaken view of the matter. We are asked to make great and sweeping change in the incidence of power in this country. Suppose that it was any other system, any other machine, or any other institution, what should we do? We should act as practical, sensible men would do. We should sit down and consider what is the end or object of that machine—what it was made to do. For instance, if it was a clock, what is the object of a clock? To tell us the time. Then we should consider whether the proposed scheme tended to promote that main object. If it did, we should probably adopt it; or if it did not promote that main object, but would accomplish some other object that was valuable and would not interfere with the main object, we should, no doubt, adopt it. But supposing a man to come to me and say—"I have discovered an invention which will make the clock in this House strike 10 times louder than it does now." I ask him "What will be the effect of that?" He says—"The effect of that will be in a short time that probably it will break the bell of the clock, and very likely it will knock down the tower on which it stands." Then I say—"My object is to have the advantage of a clock to tell me the time, and I do not approve your invention, which, though it might give a collateral advantage would injure the main object for which the clock was made. "Except from the hon. and gallant Gentleman who has just sat down, we have not heard anything which touches the real essence of this case. In my opinion, what we have to consider is, what effect these changes will have on the House of Commons—whether by making these changes the House of Commons will become a better machine for the purposes for which it was made for the making of laws and for the administration of government. And I must point out to the House that this is a question which it becomes every year more delicate and difficult to answer, because the House of Commons is continually making advances on the province of the Executive Government. It is a matter of extreme delicacy and difficulty to alter the constitution of this House without seeing very clearly in what direction you are going. You are not justified, in my opinion, in altering the Constitution merely because a great
  1472
  number of very worthy people would be much pleased if they had the advantage of being relieved from the stigma that they have not the franchise, unless you see clearly that by making the alteration the Constitution, if it be not improved, will at least not be injured. The hon. Member for the Border Burghs seemed to think we can stop with this change, but when the number of constituents is increased to the extent he proposes, it will be absolutely impossible that the present system of electoral districts can go on. It might be said that we are not proposing these alterations with a view of improving the House of Commons, but that it was a concession to a feeling—an honourable feeling, no doubt—a feeling of equality. But we cannot stimulate those feelings of equality and then regulate them, saying we will go to a certain point and then stop. When we have given these rural voters the franchise, it will be demanded, as is demanded by the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles Dilke), that the striking and startling differences in the amount of electoral power shall be remedied. No one can be so weak as to suppose that things can stop there. We have made a little deity of equality. We have set it up as an idol, and we must take the consequences. The result will be to carry us in the direction of equalizing electoral districts. When I look at the great disparities which now exist, and at the feelings so honestly and sincerely entertained on this side of the House, and I believe on the other also, in favour of this idol of equality—which is no idol of mine—I cannot help feeling very confident that when we come really to address ourselves to this question of electoral districts, we shall find it absolutely impossible to give equality on the old basis, and I do not think it is conceivable, remembering the differences in different parts of the country, that we can maintain the old distinction of counties and boroughs. We cannot put ourselves on an equality else, and it is no use sacrificing so much, unless we give satisfaction. I feel as certain as anyone can of the future—and I hope the remote future—that the result of what we are going to do will be to drive us not to remodel our present electoral districts, but to some process of this kind. We shall have to take the whole number of electors, divide that by the number

  1473
  of Members, and take the quotient as an electoral district, with some such plan as that in America, for a power of revision every 10 years. I cannot conceive how we can avoid such a conclusion. The more a man studies it, the more he will see how impossible it will be to go upon the old plan. What is to prevent it? You would concede the franchise generally to men in the rural districts and towns, and you would concede equal electoral districts, or something closely approaching to them. Is any man sanguine enough, or rather weak enough, to suppose that we can stop there after sacrificing everything to equality and recognizing its principle in this way? Is it possible to go no further, and not give an equality by extending the franchise to manhood suffrage? It is utterly impossible, and we must make up our minds to the whole course. I may be told that some countries are tolerably well governed by manhood suffrage. I do not deny that, if we had a large military power to keep order, or if we would consent to have a Constitution like that of America, where they elect a King for four years, who really governs, and whom they cannot get rid of unless he is impeached for some crime, and where the Ministers are not responsible, except they commit some crime, Government under universal suffrage might somehow go on. America shows how, under very favourable conditions, it is possible to carry on the Government; but to suppose that a Government like ours, which is not merely legislative, but in a great measure the Executive Body of the country, can be carried on under uuiversal suffrage, is a dream, as it seems to me, too idle to be considered. It is impossible to do it; it must involve a reconstruction of our institutions of some kind or another under circumstances the least favourable to permanence, because it would be made under the influence of tremendous, sweeping change, and must be made by persons or by bodies comparatively unacquainted with the art of manipulating matters of this kind. I have felt it my duty, therefore, although I have already reaped sufficient unpopularity in this field, after nine years, once more to break silence and unburden my conscience by stating to the House what I believe must be the inevitable results of these proposals. You may say that I exaggerate in many respects; but I ask
  1474
  you, are you so very ill off now in this the happiest and best governed country in the world that you should try these tremendous experiments? If we were like some other countries you might say desperate diseases need desperate remedies, but where is our desperate disease? We are only too prosperous, too happy, yet I fear in the extremity of that prosperity and happiness we shall not be satisfied until by our own hand we have pulled down the noblest fabric of liberty and justice that human hands ever raised, or human folly ever destroyed.
  MR. JOHN BRIGHT: I have heard with pleasure, at least in one sense, and with very great interest, the speech of my right hon. Friend. I think many Members of the House who were here about 10 years ago then heard arguments somewhat of the same kind, though at that time they were not delivered with the calmness and the kindly feeling which have been displayed to-night, and I was further led to imagine that a speech of the same kind might also have been delivered previous to the year 1832. Every argument used by my right hon. Friend against the step which the House is now asked to take would have been perfectly good from this bench, if it had been adduced in company with Sir Charles Wetherell and other opponents of the Reform Bill brought in by the Government of Lord Grey. At the same time, I am not about to say that there were not words of warning which my right hon. Friend uttered, to which the House may not well pay attention. But I am glad to find that on this occasion we can debate this question in a less stormy condition of things than I have known to exist in past years. We have no anger on that (the Ministerial) side of the House, and, except from my right hon. Friend, there does not appear to be very much timidity on this side. We are, in fact, in a cool and temperate atmosphere, and we can discuss this great question now apart from the terrors and alarms with which some Gentlemen were accustomed to discuss it in past years. It is a very curious thing that these terrors or alarms should seize my right hon. Friend or affect the minds of any other hon. Members, because we must bear in mind that this country has been a country of Parliamentary representation for a great number of centuries, and that

  1475
  of late years—I mean within the last century, certainly within the last two centuries—we have been responsible for the spreading of representative Government of the most complete character almost all over the globe, and certainly among many considerable communities throughout the world; for instance, in what were once our colonies, and now that great nation the United States of America; again, in our great colonies of Australia and New Zealand; and also in the populous communities of South Africa under the British Crown. In all those countries representative institutions have been established on the basis of our own, but with a wider scope and including a greater portion of the population with their privileges. And, further, we may say that in most of the countries of Europe where there has been any advance of political liberty—and I doubt whether there is any in which there has not been some advance—we see that there is a representative system—following very much in the steps of ours—being gradually established. I see, moreover, in the newspapers startling news—some of which was mentioned to us this evening by the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs—to the effect that in Constantinople an educated class called the Soft as have even some dim idea of establishing representative institutions in that capital. Well, if this be so, we really have had a large experience—an experience of our own and other peoples. We have more than this. We have admitted—and admitted, I think, with great success—that a wide suffrage is better than a narrow suffrage. Indeed, my right hon. Friend himself speaks of this happy country, and says—"You are going to pull down the noblest fabric of liberty which human hands have ever reared." But of this noble fabric some of the top stones—and, as I think, some of the most ornamental stones—are the very stones against which he himself protested some 10 years ago. I should hardly have thought my right hon. Friend would have spoken in such terms of eulogy about a constitution that had so recently undergone changes which in his view were likely to involve the country in danger if not in ruin. But I will now endeavour to confine my observations to what I understand to be the precise object of this Motion and this debate—namely, whether it would
  1476
  be judicious to extend the franchise now possessed by householders in boroughs to householders in counties. That, I think, is the question in which, whether in the counties or in the boroughs, the greatest interest is felt by the people at this moment. It is said there is something special and different about the counties, and that it is not necessary or desirable to establish in them the same franchise as exists in the boroughs. We know that there is something different. Up to 1832, no man voted for a county who was not a proprietor of the soil. It was not so much Gentlemen on this side of the House who broke in upon the practice of that time. The Chandos Clause, which gave the franchise to occupiers of the value of £50, was a clause introduced, I believe, but certainly supported, by the great body of the Party opposite. Therefore, they were the first who broke down the rule which prevailed up to the passing of the first Reform Bill. During the discussions on that Bill the House came to the conclusion that it was not wise—I agree entirely in this—to confine the county franchise to the freeholders. In past times the freeholders were a much more numerous body than they are now; and it would be impossible at this moment—as every Member of this House must know and feel—to have confined the franchise of the counties to freeholders in the counties. Then it seems to me that when the old plan of a freehold franchise was given up, and a ratepaying or occupying franchise was adopted, that was a very great step in the direction of what we are proposing to the House to-night. But still there remained a great difference between the counties and the boroughs, for in the counties you still had the freehold franchise, and a very high occupation franchise; and in the boroughs, by the first Reform Bill, you had only an occupation franchise of the value, not of £50, as in the counties, but of £10;and that difference continued for a great number of years. But there came a time when the right hon. Gentleman, now the head of the Government, being the Leader of the House, but not then the Prime Minister, himself introduced a Reform Bill, and on that occasion he objected to reduce the borough franchise at all. He was for something that was called "lateral extension." It was a thing which nobody

  1477
  was able to understand, but still it sufficed, of course, for the Gentlemen who voted with him. The right hon. Gentleman was for a lateral extension of the borough franchise, but he proposed to bring down the county franchise to the same point as that which then existed in the boroughs; and the House will recollect that two of his Colleagues—the right hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) and the right hon. Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Walpole), who always sit together—seceded from his Government because they differed with him on that question. And, therefore, if anybody feels great doubt as to the constitutional propriety of having an equal franchise in the counties and in the boroughs—especially if anybody who sits on the opposite side of the House and follows the First Minister entertains any such doubt—his difficulties may be entirely removed, because it was on the authority of his own Leader that that proposition was first submitted to Parliament. In 1866 a proposal was made that the borough franchise should be reduced to £7, and many Gentlemen now present will remember the terrible denunciations that were levelled at that so-called democratic step. In the following year the right hon. Gentleman was not only willing to accept a £7 franchise, but he was willing to go down to household suffrage, and to have no qualification whatever in the boroughs except the fact of inhabiting a house or appearing on the rate books as a householder. The Party opposite—I am sorry they afford so much opportunity for unpleasant criticism—exhibited what, to my mind, was ignorant and abject terror in 1866. I did my best to disabuse them of it. I tried to show them that, with all their Conservative intentions, it would have been wise for them to accept the Bill offered by Lord John Russell's Government. They refused, but yet in the following year they plunged into an extreme far beyond that which the year before they declared to be perilous, if not destructive, to the country. Within a few years, therefore, the Party opposite—for I must identify them with their Leader—have done two things, they have proposed that the county and borough franchises should be equalized, and they have brought forward a measure which with their consent ended in the granting of house-
  1478
  hold suffrage to the boroughs. I therefore say that if they accept the first of the two Resolutions that have been proposed, their course will be entirely logical; but if they reject it, they will have to use arguments in support of their position which will entirely condemn what they have done heretofore in regard to this question. My right hon. Friend has asked two or three questions in the course of his speech. I would like to ask another, which I think ought to be settled before we proceed with this Resolution. I would ask whether the change that has been made in the borough franchise has proved itself fairly satisfactory to the House and the country? The Party opposite proposed it in such a manner that at last household suffrage in counties became unavoidable, and I have observed that in speeches made at the last General Election, and at single elections which have occurred since—especially when they have been speaking to numbers of working men—their orators always exulted in that which was done in regard to this matter. They saw what a grand and admirable thing it has been for the country, and, if I am not mistaken, Lord Derby, speaking at Edinburgh a short time since, referred to household suffrage and the working man's vote with something akin, not merely to satisfaction, but to exultation. I never have attempted to deny that a wide suffrage must, as a matter of course, introduce a great many persons who are of no advantage to the constituencies, and to whom, I am sorry to say, the franchise can be of no advantage either; but this is inevitable, and, on the whole, it will be admitted by everyone that the results of what was done in 1867 with regard to the borough franchise have been satisfactory and give us no cause whatever for alarm. Ignorance undoubtedly prevailed in regard to this question, but that ignorance is now more rapidly than at any former period in this country giving place to instruction and to schools; while corruption and intimidation, as shown by the experience of elections that have been held within the last 10 years, are giving way to a growing and strengthening moral sense throughout the constituencies. We now come to the question of the counties, in regard to which I think the inhabitants may be divided into four classes—owners of land and tenant farmers,

  1479
  labourers and shopkeepers, and inhabitants of towns and villages, of whom there must be a large number. Two of these classes have votes, and one of them mainly has the power. The great bulk of the labourers and of the householders in villages and small towns are excluded because of a franchise of £12 rating, which is equal to a £15 or £16 rental. [Cries of "£14."] Take £14 if you like, but £15 or £16 is nearer the mark. My right hon. Friend behind me did not give us a reason why a person living in a £15 house in the county town should not have a vote if a person living in a house at £5 rent in a borough has a vote. There must have been an object in giving votes to such persons in boroughs, and I can see no reason why the same reasoning should not apply in counties. It seems to me quite impossible and unreasonable on a speculative argument like that which has been used by my right hon. Friend to shut out, it may be, 1,000,000 persons from the franchise, every one of whom would have the power to vote if they happened to live in boroughs. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister gave household suffrage in boroughs as a means of settling the question for ever; and I can see no reason why the same rule, with a similar view, should not be adopted in the counties. It has been said that one result of passing the Resolution which has been proposed would be to lead to agitations for manhood or universal suffrage. So far from holding that view, my opinion is that the best means of putting an end to the possibility or probability of any such agitation would be to give a free vote to every householder in the country. Depend upon it, you will leave the discontented there of no authority, and you will add a vast number—hundreds of thousands, it may be, it will be—to the present electors, who will be satisfied with the rights and privileges they have secured, and will not be willing, for merely fanciful reasons, to extend them to those who may have less claim to a vote than themselves. Now, I must touch upon one question which has been remarked upon by the hon. Member for Morpeth (Mr. Burt), and I think it fortunate that upon this subject we should have heard that speech from the hon. Member—that is, whether the persons to whom we are now proposing to give the vote
  1480
  are capable of the fair and judicious exercise of their franchise. Let hon. Gentlemen opposite and the right hon. Gentlemen behind me bear in mind that there is a large class between the labourer in the county and the £16 householder. I do not know whether there is any Return which gives the precise number, but it must be nearly half of the whole number who would come between £16 and £5 rental. The farm labourers in the county would be below or about £5 rental. I think the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir Walter Barttelot) would scarcely object to give the franchise to persons living in houses of from £5 or £6 to £15 or £16 rental. I would say they are persons who know something of politics, and are fairly trustworthy in the matter of the vote. Suppose we were to give it to £5 or £6 householders, would it be wise to draw a line at a point which would absolutely and effectually exclude whole classes of labourers in the counties? The moment it was done you would have the excluded labourers knocking at your doors, just as the labourers in boroughs knocked at your doors. It would be seen that it had been unwise to exclude them; and then the door would have to be re-opened to admit them. The hon. Baronet said he was not to be understood as saying anything against labourers; but I am afraid that if they could have heard him they would not have appreciated his compliments, particularly his description of their ignorance. He did not seem to bear in mind that if they are ignorant of politics they are becoming less so every day; and if it be true they are somewhat ignorant of polities, I must say that is a curious plea to be put in by Gentlemen opposite. I think the labourers need not blush compared with them if we look back over 30 years in this House. I have been in this House since 1843, and I think that nearly every measure the House is now particularly proud of has been opposed in the main by hon. Gentlemen opposite. It is a terrible thing to recall such things to hon. Gentlemen opposite. There was great terror about the importation of corn. There was great terror of the importation of cattle. I remember an hon. Baronet on this side of the House, who represented a western county, and who was known by the name of "longhorns and

  1481
  shorthorns," because he always told Sir Robert Peel that the introduction of longhorns or shorthorns, I forget which, would be ruinous to the trade of the country. They objected to free trade in sugar, to the abolition of the duties on paper, and to the abolition of the 4d. stamp on newspapers, and the duty of 3s. 6d. on advertisements. I need not talk of church rates; we are all glad to have got rid of them. Since they were abolished churches have been better cared for than ever they were before in the history of the English Church. The Irish Church question was another on which hon. Gentlemen opposite differed from us. They differed very much with regard to the legislation on Irish land. They differed from us very much about the Ballot; but they rejoice in the Ballot. ["No, no!"] It is not a question to be argued, because their approval is notorious; and in the course of another year they will be bringing in a Bill to make it permanent, and not a single voice will be raised to protest against it. With regard to education, when Lord John Russell proposed the first Vote to be given by the Privy Council, I believe it was objected to almost unanimously by the Party opposite, and it was carried only by a very small majority. Again, the French Treaty, about which there seems to be now no difference of opinion either in England or France, so advantageous has it been, was made a Party question by hon. Gentlemen opposite. I do not say this for the sake of saying anything unpleasant to hon. Gentlemen opposite. I ask hon. Gentlemen opposite, when they speak of the ignorance of farm labourers, whether they might not make a little allowance for them? As far as they have had the opportunity of reading newspapers, attending meetings, or otherwise expressing their opinions, I will be bound that during all this time they have favoured the policy which hon. Gentlemen opposite have stubbornly and, I think, unwisely objected to. If they are ignorant, their ignorance is lessening everyday. The condition of the farm labourer just now is one to my mind of extreme interest. I reckon wages to be a first-class question. If they can be doubled, you will double many things; you will give the labourer a better home, his children a better education; you will
  1482
  lift him gradually, it may be slowly, but certainly, in the scale of the society in which he lives. I recollect the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government, in one of those speeches which may be amusing to his friends, but which are sometimes distressing and even painful to us, and in which he declaimed to the House about the vast sufferings of the agricultural interest, concluded by saying he was willing to rest his whole case upon the effect which would be produced on the agricultural labourer. I was speaking lately to one from his own county, who was working as a navvy in Lancashire. He was at his mid-day meal, resting from his work, and I asked him where he came from. He said from Buckinghamshire. I said—"How are things going on in Buckinghamshire?" and he replied—"A good deal better than they used to do. When I was a lad my father worked for 7s. a-week; but when I left home he was getting 11 s., and I have since heer'd as they're givin' him 14 s." That was double the wages received there 30 years ago. Now, about that time I went with a gentleman now in service under the Government to visit Stonehenge. It was a miserable, drizzling day; the shepherd of Salisbury Plain made his appearance in a long coat, and I asked him, among other things, how many children he had. He said—"Only one, thank God." I said—"Do you thank God, then, for having only one child?" and he said—"If you had to be on this plain seven days a-week for 8s. a-week, would not you thank God you had only one child?" I do not know exactly what a shepherd of Salisbury Plain gets now; but I rather think he gets double that. [An hon. Member: More.] Only the other day I was going down to the North, travelling with a gentleman from Northumberland, who is a landed proprietor and farmer, and, I think, has some interest in collieries. He told me he gave 26 s. a-week to the labourers on his farm—21 s. in money, house, coal, and potatoes. [An on. Member: Where?] I will not give the name to anyone; but I have no doubt the statement was quite true. If that be true, the wages of the agricultural labourer have risen very greatly indeed—in some cases fully double. This brings me to the meeting held last week. I think it is a deplorable thing that the newspapers being pressed with

  1483
  matter at the time it was held, the proceedings were not adequately reported. There were more than 600 farm labourers, who came from various counties and districts, not at the expense of any general association, but at their own expense and the expense of their immediate friends, to discuss this very question which we are now discussing. I am sorry I was not able to attend, but the accounts I have received of it from several Members of this House who were there show it to have been one of the most remarkable political meetings held for many years in this metropolis. All these men have now their newspapers. There are newspapers printed for them, and circulated by thousands every week. Hon. Gentlemen opposite know there are such papers. There are, no doubt, many things in some of those papers which it would be better if the agricultural labourer did not read. I have seen many things that no intelligent friend of the agricultural labourer would have placed before him for his mental instruction. But the papers are there; the labourers are reading; their wages are greatly increased; their independence is increasing; and among them all there is a gradual movement which it is quite impossible for this House to undertake to suppress—a movement in the direction of asking that they should be placed on an equality with their fellow-countrymen in the towns, and that they should have that small but fair share of political influence which the man has who is intrusted with the elective franchise. Now, we know—the hon. Member for the Border Burghs (Mr. Trevelyan) referred to them—of questions which are before the House in which the labourers and the population of the counties are greatly interested. These are the question of education; the question of local government, which hon. Gentlemen opposite find so difficult; the administration of justice; the laws relating to land; they may think some day that the land is to be made as free as the produce of the land has been made. Well, the question is a fair question; shall their Representatives speak no word on their behalf with regard to these questions? I will not enter into the question of distribution. I think that the theory that the two questions should be proceeded with together is not a wise one. I believe it
  1484
  would be better if the House concentrated its view upon the question of the franchise, not that it will not be necessary to touch the matter of the distribution of seats, but because that is not a matter which requires to be argued. The moment the franchise is amended, all men's eyes who look with interest to this question, will be turned to the question of distribution. But the question of the franchise is one which presses much more than the other, because a great body of the labourers feel that they are aggrieved. They are not aggrieved on the question of distribution any more than we are. We all feel alike about that. But all these people feel the question of the franchise, and I believe that the true policy of the people moving in this matter is the true policy of any honest Government; that when a due registration is made of the enfranchised bodies and a Return shown so that you can get an exact return of the number of electors throughout the towns and boroughs, then you will have a great amount of accurate information upon which you can proceed if you think the time is favourable and right to deal with the question of the distribution of seats. I ask the House with great sincerity to consider the question as it has been discussed on the whole to-night. It cannot be called a Party question. ["Oh!"] It is not a Party question. There is scarcely a Member on the other side of the House with whom I have gone into the question, who has not said that it cannot be put off for very long, and when the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government proposes that it shall be done, no doubt it will be accepted and adopted by an overwhelming majority even in this House. And when it is done a great thing will be done. We shall have the counties put in as favourable a position for legislation on their behalf as the boroughs occupy now. The freedom of the towns will be extended to the counties, and we shall have what I fear is a great amount of social tyranny in the counties broken up. We shall have what I have described as the paralysis of half the political interests and power of the country removed and healed, and we shall have the industry, the intelligence, and the freedom of both town and country brought to combine in the election of a really free Parliament, that shall be a credit

  1485
  and a permanent safeguard to a great and a free people.
  MR. DISRAELI: The right hon. Gentleman is never more at home and happy than when he dwells on the history of successive Reform Bills and of the political struggles in which he has taken part. To-night his memory is completely historical. He has taken the opportunity, in the first place, of attacking my inconsistency in proposing the schemes for Parliamentary Reform which at different times of my life I have made. Whether the right hon. Gentleman attacks me or not, I accept his remarks in the spirit in which they were offered, and what that spirit is I do not stop to inquire. The right hon. Gentleman says that in 1859 I brought in a Bill on reform, the principle of which was identity between the borough and the county franchises—that is to say, I proposed to reduce the county franchise to the £10 franchise of the boroughs. We were induced to take that course for this among other reasons, but for this principal one, that we were convinced no lowering of the borough franchise could be a final settlement. Well, that Bill was not successful. A Bill was introduced by the Friends of the right hon. Gentleman, which proposed the reduction of the borough franchise to £7. I and those who acted with me opposed that measure, and the right hon. Gentleman says this was very inconsistent. He says—"You opposed this reduction of the borough franchise to £7, and yet the year after you proposed household suffrage." I maintain, as I have ever maintained, that our course was perfectly consistent. We took our stand upon the £10 franchise on the ground that if you once tampered with it you could have no final settlement; that every year—I will not say every year, but every period—when a Party was in distress and wished to increase and strengthen their popular balance, a new Bill would of course be brought forward, and that we should soon have had, as was adumbrated in many speeches at the time, a £5 borough franchise. I, and many others were sick of these proposals of £7, £6, or £5, and this tampering with the liberties and franchises of the people for 10 s. or 20 s., and accordingly we brought in a measure which would meet the difficulties of the case, and upon the success of which
  1486
  the right hon. Gentleman has to-night congratulated us. Then the right hon. Gentleman has made a severe answer to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of London (Mr. Lowe), whose speech he says might have been made in opposition to Lord Grey's Parliamentary Reform Bill of 1832. There is no end of saying things of that kind. I might say, for instance, to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham—"Why have you just made a speech which might as well have been made in favour of a Parliamentary Reform Bill based on manhood suffrage?" For every single argument of his tended in that direction and indicated that course. The right hon. Gentleman also took refuge in a very original observation—namely, that the debate now going on in the House was not on a Party question. Why, we have heard this every night and on every subject. Hardly any colonial, financial, or other question has been brought before the House this Session that has not been baptized by that title of peace. The right hon. Gentleman had in this case, however, some reason for the statement, because the scope and tendency of his speech was entirely to throw over the hon. Member for the Border Burghs (Mr. Trevelyan) and his Motion. The hon. Gentleman the Member for the Border Burghs, for reasons which he deemed good, brought forward Resolutions to-night which not only aim at equalizing the franchise between counties and boroughs, but meeting objections which he deemed valid, which had been urged before, he also proposed that the House should reconsider the re-distribution of seats. That was the Motion, and the hon. Member for the Border Burghs and the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea (Sir Charles Dilke), his most efficient supporter, were not justified in making their speeches unless they were prepared to adopt this combination of measures. That is the very basis on which this Motion has been made to-night; but what says the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham? He says he is not one of those who approve the policy of considering the re-distribution of seats. He does not admit that it is at all a corollary of the other question. He protests against their being combined together, and he makes a speech which, as an avowed supporter of the hon. Member

  1487
  for the Border Burghs, he was not justified in making, for it was an argument against the very policy which the hon. Member for the Border Burghs has pressed upon us to-night. When this question of equalizing the franchise in boroughs and counties was first brought forward, it was my duty to oppose the proposition, and I opposed it on broad grounds. I said that by this measure of reducing the county franchise to the level of the borough franchise you will have an enormous increase in the constituencies. I gave figures, and I am almost tired of giving figures to the House on a subject on which it has been my duty to address them so often. However, I gave figures which may not be as striking as those to which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of London has adverted, and which are to be found, I believe, in a pamphlet of great authority, but which I have not had an opportunity to look at. Still, the figures I gave were taken from authentic records and Parliamentary Returns. From them I showed that we had in England and Wales 1,800,000 houses in the boroughs, which furnished us with 1,250,000 electors giving the proportions of votes to houses as 25 to 36. I further stated that in counties there were 2,500,000 houses and 720,000 voters, and the House saw from the Returns upon the Table that the figures would add 1,000,000 of voters to the counties, and cause the county voters to exceed the borough voters by 500,000; and I said—I take the liberty of quoting my own words—
  "Now as to the result, 1,740,000 county voters would return 187 Members to Parliament, while 1,250,000 borough voters would return 297 Members."
  The House felt that that was a state of affairs which it was impossible for the moment to admit, and the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Border Burghs, and the hon. Baronet the Member for Chelsea, admitted that it was impossible for them to say that nearly 2,000,000 of voters should return only 187 Members to Parliament, while little more than 1,000,000 returned 297. Everybody said, indeed, that that was a proposition which never could for a moment be entertained by Parliament, and I call the attention of the House to this fact, that the necessary consequence of adopting
  1488
  the policy which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham professes to-night, and which I did believe he was the only person of authority who could for a moment sanction, was a great re-distribution of political power—one that must necessarily break up the borough system of England. I gave no opinion on the expediency or inexpediency of following that course, as another time would come for the consideration of that question. All I did was to impress upon the House the facts to which I have alluded. Well, Sir, the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Border Burghs and the hon. Baronet have admitted frankly and completely to-night that the view I took was a just one—one which has been adopted by the House and the country—and that they have felt that this question could never be brought before us again unless the extension of the franchise was associated with the re-distribution of seats. I cannot say that I think the manner in which they have dealt with the second part of the question is entirely satisfactory. Still, it is, at least, a homage to the convictions of Parliament. The hon. Baronet said—We have come forward to-night with a complete scheme of re-distribution. Now, the language I find on the Paper on that subject is scarcely satisfactory. The second Resolution is—
  "That it would be desirable to so re-distribute political power as to obtain a more complete representation of the opinion of the Electoral body."
  Well, I think that before the House could sanction any Motion of the character of the first Resolution we should have a statement of the principles on which the re-distribution is to be made. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham will not give any attention to the subject, and his whole argument has been not only in favour of the lowering of the franchise, but against a re-distribution of seats. [An hon. Member: No.] Yes. The right hon. Gentleman may take refuge in saying that when we have got an extension of the franchise then we can consider the question of re-distribution, but at this moment he has advocated a lowering of the franchise without a re-distribution of political power. Well, from the right hon. Gentleman I expected nothing, but

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  I certainly expected from the hon. Member for the Border Burghs, and especially from the hon. Baronet, who is very learned in Parliamentary statistics, that we should have some idea of what, after all, is one of the greatest Parliamentary revolutions that could be carried into effect, even in what the hon. Baronet said might be a more mitigated form. Sir, I contend, as I have ever contended, that we cannot deal with the franchise of this country or extend it in any way without some general survey of the distribution of political power, and, without going back to 1832. I beg to say, with reference to the measure of 1867–8, that the re-distribution was by no means contemptible;45 new seats were added to Parliament. The absolute necessities and claims of the most considerable counties were entirely met, and a number of very considerable towns were enfranchised. The fact that 45 new Members were introduced into the House shows at once, as regards the re-distribution of political power, how very considerable the measure was. Well, now, I want, before we divide, to bring before the House the real question for its decision. The question before us is not the political biography of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham—although a more interesting and agreeable one it would be somewhat difficult to find; it is not the Bills on the subject of Parliamentary Reform which I may have brought in; it is not what financial and economic measures have been passed during the last 30 years; it is not any of the various questions which the right hon. Gentleman has included in his self-complacent catalogue; we have before us a very important, but very single and simple issue. It is really pretty well the same question as we had before—namely, a proposition to lower the franchise in counties to the same rate as exists in boroughs; because, although we have had a great homage to truth paid by the acknowledgment that the House ought to come to some Resolution as to the re-distribution of political power, that part of the subject has not been placed before us in that practical way which alone would enable us to deal with it. We must urge against the proposition of the hon. Gentleman the argument that we have urged before—Your Resolution, if it were carried,
  1490
  would add enormously to the county constituency, and this county constituency, with its enormous numbers, would command much fewer seats in this House than the borough constituency, with its numbers so diminished comparatively with the counties. You cannot practically advance in this way without breaking up your present borough constituencies. The question is, are you prepared for that? Do you think it desirable that it should be broken up? Because it is vain to suppose that when you come to business in this matter you can take refuge in the vague expressions of the hon. Member for Chelsea, that men of the world would know how to manage these things, that when the changes take place they will not be so great as we anticipate, that some Gentlemen may lose their seats, but that if they do they will come in for others. These are not considerations that you can put into a Parliamentary schedule. Here are the facts. That a constituency of 2,000,000 will be represented by 143 votes, while a constituency of 1,200,000 will be represented by 300 votes in Parliament. Everyone believes that if it came to a vote in favour of equalizing suffrages the necessary consequence must be that we should pledge ourselves to a policy which must destroy entirely the whole of the borough constitution. Some of it may be re-constructed. I do not mean to say that Parliament would not recover or survive such an event, or that the House would entirely consist of the Representatives of electoral districts. But do not conceal from yourselves that it will immensely alter the character of Parliament and in a great degree affect its popular character. The variety of character which this House derives from its municipal communities is one of the important features of Parliament and one of the richest elements of representative power. This, then, is the issue before us. We must not be distracted from it by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham, which had in fact nothing to do with the question. It is a mere plea for a wide extension of the franchise, without a due and statesmanlike consideration of the consequences of such an act. I therefore trust the House will vote against it, and oppose the Resolution of the hon. Member for the Border Burghs.
  MR. TREVELYANwished to say a few words in reply, as very few Members were in the House when he moved his Resolution, an done of those who had followed him had contrived greatly to misunderstand him. The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe), who in old days led the Conservative Party from the back benches of the Liberal Party, now appeared to lead those Conservatives from the front benches of the same Party. The absence of the noble Marquess the Member for the Radnor Burghs was regrettable, but it was now seen to be explicable. It now appeared that their Leader took counsel, not with the majority of his supporters in that House and the country, but with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of London, and to spare his susceptibilities the chosen Leader of the Liberal Party was not in his place to-night. The right hon. Gentleman taunted him with not having given any practical reason why his Motion should be adopted, but he should be so audacious as to attempt to give the right hon. Gentleman a lesson in history. The franchise was extended in 1832, and the consequence was that within two or three years slavery was abolished, municipal government was set up in our towns, the Church of England was reformed to a state in accordance at least with the feelings of Churchmen, the Corn Laws were abolished, and the fiscal condition of the country improved with great rapidity. The franchise was extended in 1867; and what was the consequence? The Factories and Workshops Acts were dealt with so as to protect the women and children employed there; the Artizans' and Workmen's Act was passed, and was supplemented by the excellent measure passed by the Home Secretary on the same subject last year; protection was given to miners; the power of wealth was abolished in the Army; Acts of great importance were passed relating to Ireland which he did not expect hon. Gentlemen opposite to approve, but which he knew the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lowe) approved very strongly; and, finally, the education of the country was extended in a manner with which hon. Gentlemen opposite found fault in some respects, and with which hon Gentlemen on his own side found fault in other respects, but which both Parties agreed to have been an immense improvement.
  1492
  Judging from experience, therefore, a further extension of the franchise would result in a fresh crop of beneficent legislation; and, believing that the enfranchisement of the agricultural labourers would have this result, and would give us a better Parliament, he hoped that the House would, at all events, support the first of the two Resolutions.
  MR. NEWDEGATE: I would not have risen after the hon. Member for the Border Burghs has replied, but I failed earlier to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker, had I not some information that I desire to convey to the House. I have made inquiries with regard to the means by which the meeting in London was brought together in support of these Resolutions, as well as a similar meeting which has been held in my division of Warwickshire. The former meeting has been spoken of as if it were spontaneously drawn together solely by the action of the labourers themselves. We, who live in North Warwickshire, know something of what is going on in Birmingham; and to-night I presented a Petition to the House from a meeting which was held at Merriden, in North Warwickshire, but which really emanated from Birmingham; that Petition was in favour of, and embodied the terms of, the Resolutions of the hon. Gentleman the Member for the Border Burghs. I thought it rather strange, after my speech and my vote of last year upon this question, that I should be desired to present such a Petition, so I set myself accurately to ascertain from whom this Petition really came; and I discovered that the meeting at Merriden, at which the Petition was adopted, was attended by two delegates from the Liberation Society and by the President of the Labourers' Union. One of the delegates from the Liberation Society informed the meeting that, finding the action of the Labourers' Union was parallel with that of the Liberation Society, that Society had elected the President of the Labourers' Union, Mr. Arch, to be one of the Council of the Liberation Society, and that the future action of the two bodies would be combined. When, therefore, we hear the hon. Member for the Border Burghs citing the advantageous legislation which this House has from time to time carried out, and the peaceful state of this country as the effects of the last Reform Act; when,

  1493
  too, we hear the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham (Mr. John Bright) assuring us that, if we do this act of what he calls justice to the agricultural labourer, the future legislation of this House will be as moderate, as reasonable, and as beneficial as it has hitherto been—I beg to mention to the House that this does not seem to be the expectation of those who convene these meetings. I assert this from what occurred at this meeting in Merriden. At that meeting it was boldly stated that the clergy of the Church of England have robbed the people of education. Mr. Arch declared that he challenged any one to contradict that assertion; and, speaking of the farmers also, he accused them of having caused pauperism and misery among their labourers; and, quoting an expression once used in this House by a Member of the House, and applying this expression to the clergy and the farmers, he said—"It is our object to unmask these villains," and inferred that he would treat them accordingly. Such are the objects of those who, being out of this House, are promoting the Motion now before it. Sir, I do not believe that the agricultural labourers will generally unite for such objects; I am firmly convinced that the working classes would not unite for such objects; yet it is for those objects that they are invited to give their support to the Motion of the hon. Member for the Border Burghs. His active supporters are, indeed, those who would bring the clergy and the farmers of the country into antagonism with the labouring classes of the country. I think it right, therefore, when we have a Motion like this brought before us, and laudatory allusions are made to the peaceful manner in which it is supported in the country, that the House should know what are the ulterior objects of the prime movers and promoters of these meetings, and that the peaceful assurances which we receive here should be contrasted with the language that is used elsewhere. I am not surprised that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham should seem so anxious to get rid of the question of re-distribution of seats. He and I have some recollection of what occurred during the re-distribution of seats that followed upon the Reform Act of 1867. There happened to be a large parish
  1494
  forming part of Birmingham—the parish of Aston—in which is situated property belonging to the Corporation of Birmingham, and it was proposed by the Boundary Commissioners that that parish should be included in the borough of Birmingham, but the right hon. Gentleman, who is so zealous for the extension of the household franchise elsewhere, joined a combination in this House to overrule the decision of the Boundary Commissioners, and by excluding Aston from the borough he represents, he deprived thousands of his neighbours of household suffrage, and left them to be, as I conclude he thinks, misrepresented by myself and my Colleague as county Members. The right hon. Member seemed to fear that he might have too much of household suffrage near home. The right hon. Gentleman has now recommended that the re-distribution of seats shall be postponed, until after the extension of household suffrage to the county constituencies has been effected. Many of the county constituencies would thus be encumbered by an enormous and disproportionate number of voters; and the right hon. Gentleman actually proposes that to a House of Commons, returned by these reformed constituencies, acting as a sort of confused Convention, should be committed the delicate task of re-distributing the seats for all the constituencies. I will only, in conclusion, say that the warning given by the right hon. Member for the University of London seems to me founded in true wisdom; and that the proposal submitted to the House in the first Resolution without the second appears to me inconsistent with common sense.
  MR. PARNELL,who spoke amid loud cries for a Division, was understood to express his intention to support the Motion with a free heart, because there was no distinction drawn between one part of the country and another, and it would include Ireland.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 165; Noes 264: Majority 99.

PARLIAMENT—EXCLUSION Of STRANGERS.—SESSIONAL ORDER.
MR. DISRAELImoved for the renewal of the Sessional Order made last Session, providing that Strangers be excluded on the Motion of any hon. Member

1495
only upon a division, to be taken without discussion or Amendment, stating that the concurrence of opinion on both sides of the House, which had been ascertained, was that the Order should not be made, as had first been proposed, a Standing Order.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Order of the 31st day of May 1875, relative to the Exclusion of Strangers, be made a Sessional Order."—(Mr. Disraeli.)
MR. RYLANDSsaid, he did not desire to take a course that was unreasonable or unfair; but as there was no urgent necessity, and as they could not have the matter reported in the public Press, he thought it would be better to move the adjournment of the debate.
MR. PARNELLseconded the Amendment.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Rylands.)
MR. J. COWENthought a Motion which involved the honour, and to some extent the interest, of a Gentleman who had a seat in that Assembly, should not be debated at that hour, and therefore he was sure that the right hon. Gentleman opposite, whose conduct was always marked by a sense of fairness, would allow this debate to be adjourned until the collateral points could be discussed.
MR. DISRAELIsaid, that was a mistake. The other Motion by the hon. Member for Londonderry (Mr. Lewis) now stood as a separate Motion, and had nothing to do with his.
MR. BUTTobjected to the Motion being agreed to without full debate and consideration. If carried it would be fatal to freedom of discussion, and would be an encroachment on the privileges of hon. Members. It would establish a precedent for carrying a Motion without debate. He had an Amendment to propose.
MR. DISRAELI: I was not aware that the hon. and learned Gentleman was going to move an Amendment, otherwise I should not have pressed the matter. I have no objection to the adjournment of the debate.
Motion agreed to.
Debate adjourned, till Tuesday 13th June.

PARLIAMENT—EXCLUSION Of STRANGERS.—SESSIONAL ORDER.

  FRIENDLY SOCIETIES ACT (1875) AMENDMENT BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Bill to amend "The Friendly Societies Act, 1875," ordered to be brought in by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer and Mr. William Henry Smith.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 177.]

  PUBLIC HEALTH (IRELAND) BILL.
  On Motion of Sir Michael Hicks-Beach, Bill for consolidating and amending the Acts relating to Public Health in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Sir Michael Hicks-Beach and Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 178.]
  House adjourned at half after One o'clock till Thursday.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London)* (100); Elementary Education Provisional Orders Confirmation Hailsham, &c.)* (101); Coroners (Dublin)* (102); Kingstown Harbour* (103).
Second Reading—Salmon Fisheries* (72).
Second Reading—Committee negatived—Third Reading—Customs and Inland Revenue*; Consolidated Fund (£11,000,000)*.
Select Committee—Union of Benefices* (64), The Lord Ross added.
Committee—Report—Treasury Solicitor* (76).
Report—Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (Chapel-en-le-Frith, &c.)* (59).

GRAND JURIES (IRELAND).

  RESOLUTIONS.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMORE: My Lords, in bringing forward the Motion of which I have given Notice, I shall endeavour to spare your Lordships any details which are not necessary to the proper explanation of the subject in hand; but must ask to be excused if, in doing so, I trespass at greater length upon your Lordships' time than I have hitherto done. In reminding your Lordships that in the Acts to which it refers is contained the entire machinery by which county taxation in Ireland is kept in motion, I shall have said, I hope, enough to secure your Lordships'attention, while endeavouring to lay before you the objections that may be taken to the constitution of those bodies which originate and carry out county works in Ireland, and some further points in which the present system has been deemed to fall short. I have ventured to come forward, as I am convinced that any discussion which may arise in your Lordships'House on this question, cannot fail to be most profitable, and to elicit valuable opinions on what appears to me a very necessary measure of reform. My Lords, although there is some difference of opinion as to what its extent should be, still we may say that the desirability of some reform in the Grand Jury Laws is recognized by all parties in Ireland. Already this Session three Bills dealing with the question have been introduced by different Members of the House of Commons; and as far as my own experience goes, and from information that
  1402
  has reached me from various quarters I believe any wisely-conceived changes would meet with general satisfaction. But before stating my own humble views, I will, with your Lordships' permission, say a very few words as to substitutions that have been proposed for the present working system. A great deal has been said outside this House about sweeping away the Grand Jury altogether, and recasting the entire machinery. Now, my Lords, I have searched with a good deal of care for any arguments pro and con which bear upon this point, and I have failed to discover that any sound reason has been advanced in support of a radical change. Very many charges have been brought against the Grand Jury, but not one of them has ever been proved—nay, the evidence we have at our command goes distinctly to disprove them. The Grand Jury was intended to be, and may be said to be, the representation of the landed proprietors of the county. It must be remembered they have no right to originate anything—with a few exceptions—only a right of control. As a matter of fact, those gentlemen summoned by the Sheriffs represent pretty fairly the landed proprietors, and their working has in almost all cases given satisfaction. Their administration has been pure and, on the whole, economical; and I do not believe you will find by any means, or in any form, whether in the form of County Boards or otherwise, a body of men who would so persistently set their faces against jobbing or anything of that sort as Irish Grand Juries do. The question was constantly asked by the late Lord Mayo and other Members of the Committee of1868, and not a single witness, however averse to the present state of things, was able to bring forward an instance in which anything approaching jobbery or corruption could be imputed to Grand Juries. And again, my Lords, in retaining the Grand Jury, we retain at the same time that excellent function of control which they exercise in all matters which entail expenditure of the county cess. There is a feeling even among those who desire a complete change that control is necessary, and I find it in the Appendix to the Report of 1868, advocated by one witness in a form analogous to the Poor Law Commissioners. We have then, my Lords, a system in working order, the working of which has given satisfaction,

  1403
  and one in which the controlling body represents that just and proper authority which the landed interest is entitled to exercise in county matters. I am sure that under these conditions your Lordships will agree it is a far wiser course to deal with the question as far as possible on the principle of leaving well alone, instead of making sweeping changes, and establishing a new order of things which would certainly take time in righting itself and becoming efficient, and, perhaps, might fail altogether. Having said so much in reference to this part of the subject, I have to draw your Lordships' attention to those changes which it might appear advisable to bring about in the summoning and elements of the Grand Jury. It is, I believe, the legal supposition that the Sheriff of a county, in forming the Grand Jury, should first summon for each barony, a freeholder of £50, or a leaseholder of £100, but in reality there is nothing in the law to compel him to do so. The words of the statute are—"duly qualified by law," and however far we go back, we shall find no satisfactory definition of this qualification. Again, at present, the Sheriff's duty is discharged by his merely placing one name from each barony on the panel. It is no business of his to see that that person attends—merely to summon him and no more. The name must appear, and that is all; so that in reality there is no proper qualification, and no security for the representation of all the baronies. The former objection would be easily met by laying down in any future legislation some distinct qualification, say of £50 freehold, or £200 leasehold, and the second by requiring the Sheriff, in forming his panel, not merely to place one name for each barony first on his list, but to call through the entire list of qualified persons in each barony, until such barony is represented, or the list exhausted, and then, and not till then, to proceed to complete his panel. The proposal is not a new one, it has already been before Parliament, and I believe the principle of the Bill in which it is contained has been recognized by Her Majesty's Government. My Lords, there is one point connected with the elements of the Grand Jury upon which I wish to say a word, and that is as to whether it is advisable to permit the eldest sons and agents of
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  qualified persons to act in their place. Now, my Lords, in particular cases the entire withdrawal of this permission would no doubt act very harshly. There is a constitutional objection, as your Lordships are aware, arising out of the duties of the Grand Jury in criminal cases, which precludes Peers from giving their services. Minors, of course, cannot, nor women, nor lunatics or idiots. In these cases there could, I would submit, be no possible objection to retaining the present state of things. But, in general, my Lords, I believe there is a very strong feeling, that these persons should not be permitted to serve on the Grand Jury. The position of agents, merely as managers and not owners of property, would seem to exclude them even under the present very uncertain qualification. Again, the knowledge that their agents may be summoned indiscriminately may tend in many cases to encourage absenteeism, of the evils of which, at one time at all events, we used to hear a great deal. I do not desire to bring any charge of this sort against any class or individual, and we, who live in the country, know well the interest which some of the Members of your Lordships' House and others take in their Irish properties; but, still, the present system may be fairly said to be open to that objection. It might be argued in favour of eldest sons that, as they will be one day called upon to perform those duties which are now in their father's hands, it would be of advantage to them to have the means of acquiring a knowledge of those duties; but we must bear in mind that it will be in every man's power to give his son a qualification if he thinks necessary, a step which would seem to be a very wise one, as it would give him not only a prospective, but an immediate interest or stake in the county. I hope, therefore, that in dealing with this matter hereafter, Her Majesty's Government will limit the right to be summoned to the agents of those disqualified by law, under which phrase the different classes I have enumerated would come. The change would give general satisfaction, and one great advantage would certainly arise from it, it would tend to make non-resident proprietors take a more direct and personal interest in county affairs. I now come to the Resolution which deals with the appointment of

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  committees, and as to their desirability I need not trouble your Lordships, only refer you to Section 14 of this Report, where the Committee have clearly stated their views; but as to the limits which should be put upon their jurisdiction I should like to say a word. In a Bill introduced by Lord Hartington some years ago, the powers of the proposed committees under his scheme were defined. The clauses in that Bill which I allude to seem to have been framed with a view of avoiding the danger which must attend the existence of these committees, if proper care is not taken in limiting their powers—that of their eventually usurping the functions of the Grand Jury; and I would suggest those clauses to Her Majesty's Government as a basis for future legislation; with this addition—that the committee should have a right of examining all accounts instead of those only of the cess collectors, and that it should be decidedly stated that it should have no power to deal summarily in any case, merely a right to report at the next Assizes. It should, I would suggest, be appointed by the Grand Jury out of their own body; and for this, among other reasons, that as one of the chief advantages we hope to derive from it is a greater sense of responsibility in county officers, the committee should consist of members of that body, to whom the responsibility is due. All I am suggesting to your Lordships is, that there should be some supervision in the interval from Assizes to Assizes. I have already indicated the danger into which the appointment of these committees may lead us; and I cannot help thinking that it would be more difficult to restrain them within proper limits, if they were formed out of those bodies with whom everything in the county originates. However, from whatever body they are taken I believe that with proper safeguards we should secure a very necessary element in county management, by establishing a body, the presence of which would be most useful in creating a more continuous sense of responsibility among county officers than it is possible should exist at present. My Lords, one argument that has been adduced in favour of sweeping away the present state of things is, that the Irish people have no control or authority over the expenditure of the
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  £1,300,000 that is yearly levied by way of county cess. Now even supposing this were the case, it is quite impossible that the fault should lie with the Grand Jury, for we all know very well that nearly 90 per cent of that expenditure is entirely beyond their control. But where reform is needed—and urgently needed—is in those bodies which are termed the presentment sessions. In fact, we may go further, and say that it is with these bodies we are bound to deal first, as with them really rests the control and authority over the expenditure. This Report tells your Lordships all the objections against them as they are—as to the mode of their formation—as to the irresponsibility, non-attendance, and causes of non-attendance of cess-payers, and the risk of their being swamped by an overwhelming majority of magistrates at sessions—so it will not be necessary for me to enter into them. If the right to sit at presentment sessions were accorded only to such magistrates as possessed a residential or property qualification in the barony—and their number were limited by the number of cess payers who had a right to attend—we should remove one of the great causes of apathy, the fear the associated cess payers entertain of having their opinions entirely overruled. But the great and most important object of all, is to secure that those cess payers should adequately and fairly represent those classes who pay the rates—and we have at our hands a system already in existence, which will enable us to fulfil those conditions. The Guardians of the Poor fairly represent the people for Poor Law purposes, and would do so equally for purposes of the administration of the county cess; and the great advantage of such an arrangement would be, that we should attain our object without any of the difficulties attending the creation of new constituencies, franchises, and territorial divisions. The Baronial courts being thus constituted it would follow as a matter of course that they should appoint their representatives at the county at large sessions, by electing them from among themselves. As to the question of boundaries, it is no doubt one which will require consideration to deal with it satisfactorily; but I believe a mode of dealing with it could be found by which electoral divisions could without much trouble be rendered coterminous with the

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  baronies. Most probably a Return exists—or at all events it could be procured, of those electoral divisions which are coterminous with baronies; and I feel confident we could find an already-established body in Ireland competent to deal with such as are not. I believe that if Her Majesty's Government laid their instructions on that authority, and directed them how to act in this matter, that by judicious pruning here, and adding on there, and the occasional suppression of an electoral division, the whole question of boundaries might be easily and quietly settled without any necessity of issuing a Commission, as was proposed by Lord Hartington's Bill of 1872. My Lords, I have now, I fear very imperfectly, touched upon those matters to which these Resolutions have reference; but before concluding I am anxious to ask your Lordships to consider one point, which I would submit should find a place in any measure of reform dealing with this question. I mean traverses. We may divide them into two classes—first, those of presentments on their merits, of contractors' applications for payments, and of presentments for damages; and, secondly, those of presentments for malicious injuries, and of disallowed applications. In the case of the former, the section is what I believe is called in law a mandatory section, the Judge being obliged to impanel a jury to try the case. In the second, it is within his discretion to do so or not. My Lords, it seems to me a matter for very serious consideration whether even the discretionary power to send a traverse to a petty jury should exist, although I cannot help feeling that, in the present state of juries in Ireland, it is one which Judges are not likely to exercise very widely; but still there may be, from a legal point of view, something to be said in its favour. In the other case, however, as it at present stands, the law may often have a very mischievous operation. Only the other day, in my own neighbourhood, a presentment for a bridge to connect two counties was passed by the two Grand Juries, fiated by the Judge at one Assizes and traversed at the other, on the two grounds of improper posting of notices and of utility. On the first, or technical ground, the decision was in the Judge's hands, but to try the second he
  1408
  was bound to impanel a jury; in fact, to refer it from a higher to a lower tribunal. What was the result, my Lords? That this useful work, which for two years the most respectable cess-payers and gentry in the neighbourhood had been endeavouring to carry out, was quashed upon traverse at the instance of a few public-house keepers living on the approaches to an old and insecure existing bridge, who were afraid that traffic would be diverted from their doors. I merely mention this to show what may happen; the very possibility of which should not exist. Surely when a presentment has to pass through the various stages it does, there are plenty of means of judging of its utility, or the contrary. It would be quite fair, if there is any objection to doing away with their assistance in traverses altogether, to leave the impanelling of a jury in the hands of the Judge of Assize; and to give, at all events, a more satisfactory tribunal, by empowering him, if he thinks proper, to grant a special jury on the application of either party to a traverse. Such a change would be more especially of advantage in cases of compensation for malicious injury, where local circumstances and feelings are likely to carry weight, and we should run less risk of having proposals extinguished just as they are arriving at maturity, through the ignorance or venality of the final tribunal that may have to decide on their merits. My Lords, I have here one or two suggestions, coming mostly from gentlemen well acquainted with the practical working of Grand Jury Laws, which I hope will be deemed worthy of the attention of Her Majesty's Government. Under compensation for malicious injury there are many cases in which no remedy can be obtained—as, for instance, growing fruit-trees, fences, timber, boats, yachts. In a recent case it was decided that valuable animals in a menagerie did not come under the Act, nor do fox-coverts. You can get compensation if your fox-hounds are poisoned, but not if your coverts are burned down, and I cannot see the use of one without the other. It would be for consideration whether injury to "all classes of animate or inanimate property" should give a claim to compensation. Again, it has been suggested that some means should be devised for paying road contractors at earlier periods, as at present

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  they have a long time to wait for their money. In cases of payment for materials the actual value of the materials should be estimated, and not only surface damage. And with regard to the collection of the county cess, a practice held to be legal exists, to continue the rate as a charge on houses even while unoccupied, and if at any time a house should become occupied then to recover all arrears. This is not done in the case of the poor rate, and would certainly appear a hardship. There are other points of detail, but these are the most important, and I will nottrouble your Lordships any further. With regard to the Resolutions, I submit them to your Lordships with a certain amount of confidence, as they have for their basis grounds which should recommend them to all parties in this House. They are based, as your Lordships will have seen, on the recommendations of the Committee of 1868, which was composed of hon. Gentlemen of different political views, on Mr. Kavanagh's Bill, of which the Chief Secretary has signified his approval, and upon Lord Hartington's Bill of 1872, which we may presume is satisfactory to noble Lords opposite. I believe legislation on these grounds would be welcomed in Ireland by the farmers' clubs, by the gentry, and by the cess-payers, and the subject seems one eminently fitted for the hand of a Conservative Government, being one connected with that internal and local reform which they acknowledged last year as their peculiar province. My Lords, I will therefore trouble you no longer. I have to apologize for detaining you at this length, but I feel a sincere hope that a consideration of the subject by your Lordships on the lines I have indicated may lead to the passing of a measure which will give us every prospect of finality, and which will render more perfect and economical the machinery for county taxation in Ireland. The noble Earl concluded by moving the following Resolutions:—
  "(1) That no person should be summoned to serve on the grand jury of any county who is not possessed of a fixed property qualification in such county;
  "(2) That the grand jury should annually at the summer assizes appoint from amongst their body a committee to represent the grand jury for certain limited purposes;
  "(3) That the baronial presentment sessions should be composed of justices of the peace
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  qualified in respect of residence or property in such barony and of the poor law guardians elected to serve for the electoral divisions wholly or partly situate within such barony;
  "(4) That the county at large presentment sessions should be composed of persons elected by the several members composing the baronial presentment sessions in such county."
  THE DUKE OF RICHMOND AND GORDONsaid, that, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, he could only compliment the noble Earl on the clear and temperate manner in which he had dealt with so complicated a question as that of the county taxation of Ireland. No one, indeed, was better qualified to deal with this important subject as his noble Friend, for no noble Lord connected with Ireland took a more active part in the business of that country. The Irish Grand Jury system wasso different from the Grand Jury system of England, that there was considerable difficulty in mastering the details of the Irish system. He agreed with his noble Friend that upon the whole the present system worked well—though he was far from saying that there was no room for improvement—and he was not sure that even after reform it would be found to be more pure and more economical than it was at present. He thought that they must all agree that the first Resolution of his noble Friend—that no person should be summoned upon the Grand Jury who had not a fixed property qualification—was one that must commend itself to their attention. Whilst, however, admitting that this would be right in theory, he was afraid that if it was attempted to be worked out in practice inconvenience and, in some cases, injustice would follow from the alteration. If such a qualification were insisted on there were parts of Ireland which would be deprived of all representation upon the Grand Jury. Again, lunatics and absentees whatever their fixed qualification could not sit upon the Grand Jury. As to the second Resolution, as to appointing a committee to represent the Grand Jury for certain limited purposes, he thought that a sufficient case had not been made out for alteration in that direction. The existence of the Grand Jury terminated with the Assizes; and a body which had such a very limited existence could not very well appoint an active body to represent them during the whole year. Further, he could not say

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  what work this Committee would find to do even if it were appointed. One consequence of appointing the committee would be to reduce the Grand Jury itself, as regards matters of finance, to much the same position as their Lordships' House held in relation to the House of Commons in respect of Money Votes. Nor did he think that the appointment of such a committee would impose upon the officers of the county a sense of responsibility arising from the feeling that they were overlooked by the committee. Any officer who should be guilty of malpractices would now be liable to have his conduct brought under notice at the next Assizes, and this, he believed, was far more efficacious than anything that could arise from the Grand Jury delegating their powers to a smaller body. The two remaining Resolutions commended themselves very much more to his mind than the two previous ones. The present mode of electing members to serve the presentment sessions was not satisfactory, because there were not as many representatives of the cess-payers as it would be desirable to have, and the third proposition of his noble Friend was an improvement. He could not pledge the Government to bring in a Bill upon the subject this year, but he knew that the matter had occupied the attention of the Chief Secretary for Ireland; and two Gentlemen in the other House had brought in Bills upon the subject: the interest which was taken in the subject was further shown by the fact that two or three Committees had sat upon it within the last few years. He should be glad if the Chief Secretary should be in a position in a future Session to bring in a Bill to deal with the matter in a satisfactory manner.
  LORD INCHIQUINconcurred with his noble Friend who had brought forward the Resolutions (the Earl of Donoughmore) that on the whole the Irish Grand Jury system had worked well; and though, no doubt, there were anomalies in its working, he did not think it could be much mended by the action of Parliament. He regretted that his noble Friend had not moved in the matter by presenting a Bill, because he did not think that much could be done by the adoption of abstract Resolutions. There could be no objection to the committee of supervision suggested by his noble Friend, if such committee
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  were appointed only from one Assize to another; and he also thought there was no valid objection to Peers serving on Grand Juries so long as those bodies were only engaged in fiscal business and before they entered upon the discharge of criminal business. It appeared to him that in the selection of members to serve on the committee of supervision there was no good reason for confining the selection to members of the Grand Jury. Therefore, although he raised no decided objection to these Resolutions he should hold himself free, in case any Bill were introduced, to give it his support, although it might not be exactly in agreement with his noble Friend's proposal.
  LORD WAVENEYconcurred with the noble Lord who had just spoken that there was no valid objection to Peers discharging the fiscal duties of Grand Jurors. He desired to point out that the sheriffs had a large discretion, and exercised it considerably in the selection of Grand Jurors in Ireland. They would get rid of much of the difficulty which was now felt in that country if there was a fixed property qualification for Grand Jurors. He was convinced, however, that where the Irish Grand Jury system was carried out by a proper order of selection of the Grand Jurors, great attention was given to the business of the country, and, notwithstanding all that had been said against the present Grand Jury system, a very slight alteration was necessary to make it an excellent one. So far as regarded the public works of the county it was superior to that which prevailed in the counties of England. In many parts of England the roads and bridges were still in an unimproved condition, while in Ireland they were attended to by those of the Grand Jurors who resided in the baronies. Under the Grand Jury Act, Poor Law Guardians were to save money and economize on all occasions; while the functions of the associated cesspayers were to act in conjunction with the Grand Jurors and to decide what money should be expended on county works for the public good. He thanked the noble Earl (the Earl of Donoughmore) for bringing forward these Resolutions, but he thought the discussion had shown that the present system required very little or no alteration when it was administered fearlessly and honestly.
  THE EARL OF BANDONsaid, he had known something of the Grand Jury system in Ireland for 30 years, and believed that the system worked well and honestly. It was often said that it did not comply with the principle that taxation and representation should go together; but it should be remembered that as regarded nine-tenths of the taxation the Grand Jury had merely a power of veto. The great evil in the present system was that they had not a permanent body to constantly look after all the works that had to be carried out.
  THE EARL OF COURTOWNpointed out that of late years greater duties had been thrown upon the Grand Juries. They had now to manage the industrial and reformatory schools and other institutions, and the Grand Jury of the County Wexford had found it necessary to appoint a Committee to consider such matters, he therefore thought there might be abundant employment for such a Committee as was mentioned in the Resolutions.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, an objection had been taken to the Resolutions on the ground that it would have been better to have brought forward a Bill. But he did not think that the Resolutions were open to such an objection. They had all recently seen the result of an abstract Resolution in the other House. But if an attempt were made to embody a scheme of Grand Jury law in a Bill it would be found that nearly every one of the clauses would have to be originated in the other House of Parliament; whereas the opinion of their Lordships' House could be taken on these Resolutions, and by that proceeding public opinion would be matured in the country. He hoped that his noble Friend would be satisfied with the discussion which had taken place. His noble Friend had shown that he had fully considered the subject and mastered all the details of it. There might be some necessity for an alteration in the law—and all noble Lords who had spoken seemed to admit that some alterations were desirable—but, if any, it should take place in the lines pointed out by his noble Friend. He thought, however, that having drawn attention to the subject and elicited opinions, his noble Friend would not advance his cause by asking the House to divide on this occasion. This was a matter which deeply
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  engaged the attention of the Irish Government, and he might mention that there was now a Bill in the other House which dealt with a portion of the subject; therefore he hoped the Resolutions would not be pressed further.
  THE EARL OF DONOUGHMOREsaid, that after what had fallen from the noble Duke and the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack he would be satisfied with the result of the discussion and not divide the House on the present occasion.
  Motion, by leave of the House, withdrawn.

FOREIGN DECORATIONS.—QUESTION.

  OBSERVATIONS
  LORD ORANMORE AND BROWNE,in asking the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs Whether the same rules which prevented the acceptance by a British subject of orders or decorations from Foreign Sovereigns apply to the acceptance by British subjects of titles from Foreign Sovereigns; and, if those rules were held not to apply, whether there were any others that do; and, if there are none that apply, whether British subjects are free to accept titles from Foreign Sovereigns; and, if so, whether he does not deem it desirable that some rules should be made to protect the prerogative of the Crown as the sole fountain of honour in the United Kingdom?—said, these Questions arose out of the discussion in this House on Friday evening last; and he would wish rather to speak upon the subject with the higher authority of the noble Lord (Lord Houghton), who then brought forward the question, than his own. The Question on Friday last was whether decorations conferred by Foreign Sovereigns could be worn by British subjects residing in this country? and the noble Earl (Earl Granville) who had been Foreign Secretary when the noble Lord (Lord Houghton) brought the same subject forward in 1873, in answer, said, that there had been rules at all times in force to prevent British subjects, with a few exceptional cases, from accepting those decorations without the consent of the Crown; and he gave as an illustration the anecdotes of Queen Elizabeth, who declared that her dogs should wear no collars but her own; and of King George

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  III., who liked all his sheep to be marked with his own brand. The noble Earl the present Foreign Secretary (the Earl of Derby) on that occasion stated that he assented to all that had been previously said by the noble Earl (Earl Granville). Therefore the condition of things was this—that both the present and late Secretaries for Foreign Affairs had stated that the Crown was the only fountain of honour, and that it was contrary to the rules which prevailed in England that foreign decorations should be worn by English subjects. It followed that if foreign decorations were not to be accepted, it was far more important that foreign titles should not be accepted. It appeared, however, that if upon any great public occasion an English gentleman who had accepted such a title was invited to Court and received by that rank, he obtained the precedence of that rank. So that it came to this—that if a gentleman of great influence and position received a foreign title, a certain precedence was given to him, which became habitual, and he took a higher place than that accorded to him by his own Sovereign. That recognition seemed to him calculated to introduce confusion and perhaps contempt. Therefore it was that he desired to put his Question to the noble Earl.
  THE EARL OF DERBY: In answer to the Question of the noble Lord, I can only say that no rules have been laid down as to English subjects receiving titles from Foreign Sovereigns. It rests entirely with the Crown whether the acceptance of such a title should be sanctioned or not. There are some cases where a Royal licence has been granted to enable British subjects bearing foreign titles to use them in this country. When no such licence has been granted the use of the titles would not be sanctioned or recognized at Court or in any official communications; nor, I presume, in any legal documents. With regard to the second point—whether British subjects are or are not free to accept and use titles from Foreign Sovereigns—the only answer I can give is that they incur no penalty by doing so. In point of fact, I do not believe that a man would incur any legal penalty if he called himself by a title to which he had no right, and which had not been conferred either by a British Sovereign or any other. It is a matter of which
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  the law takes no cognizance. With regard to the last point, I am not aware that any great inconvenience arises from the present state of the law on this subject and I do not think that any new regulations are necessary. With reference to the case put by the noble Lord as to the acceptance of foreign titles not sanctioned by the Government of this country, but which cannot grow into use and give the bearer precedence on public occasions, I can only point out that this is a case which cannot occur, because precedence at the British Court is regulated by fixed and well-known rules. That is not a matter which is dealt with by the law of England, but which is regulated by custom and social convention, and I think we may leave it on the footing upon which it stands at present.

TURKEY—REPORTED DEPOSITION Of THE SULTAN.—QUESTION.
EARL DE LA WARRdesired to ask the Foreign Secretary, Whether he was in a position to make any communication to the House with respect to the reported deposition of the Sultan?
THE EARL OF DERBY: I can only confirm the truth of the statement which has appeared in the newspapers of this evening. I have seen two telegrams, one of which is from Sir Henry Elliot, while the other was addressed to the Turkish Ambassador by his own Government. Both state the fact that the late Sultan has been dethroned, and that his nephew has succeeded to his throne. I am not in a position to give details, because I have not received any; but in both telegrams which I have seen it is stated that the revolution has been accomplished without disturbance of any kind.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDER CONFIRMATION ( LONDON) BILL [H.L.] (No. 100.)
A Bill to confirm a Provisional Order made by the Education Department under "The Elementary Education Act, 1870," to enable the School Board for London to put in force "The Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845," and the Acts amending the same: And

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION PROVISIONAL ORDERS CONFIRMATION (HAILSHAM, &C.) BILL [H.L.] (No. 101.)
A Bill to confirm certain Provisional Orders made by the Education Department under "The Elementary Education Act, 1870," to enable the School Boards for Hailsham, Ilchester, Ingham, Slaugham,

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Swansea United District, and Swansea Parish Higher and Lower, to put in force "The Lands Clauses Consolidation Act, 1845," and the Acts amending the same:
Were presented by The Lord President; read la; and referred to the Examiners.

CUSTOMS AND INLAND REVENUE BILL.

  CONSOLIDATED FUND (£11,000,000) BILL.
  Read 2a (according to order); Committees negatived: Then Standing Orders Nos. XXXVII. and XXXVIII. considered (according to order), and dispensed with: Bills read 3a, and passed.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, to Thursday next, half past Ten o'clock.