Sitting of 2 March 1876

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBERS SWRUN—William Beckett Denison, esquire, for East Retford; James Clifton Brown, esquire, for Horsham.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—ARMY ESTIMATES—Committee—R.P.
RESOLUTION IN COMMITTEE—Merchant Shipping [Salaries, &c.]
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—First Reading—Cattle Disease (Ireland) * [94]; Protection to Growing Crops (Scotland) * [95].
Second Reading—Council of India (Professional Appointments) * [69].
Committee—Exchequer Bonds (£4,080,000) * [89]—R. P.; Consolidated Fund (£4,080,000) *—R.P.
Committee—Report—Sea Insurances (Stamping of Policies) * [26–93].
Third Reading—Marriages (Saint James, Buxton) * [79], and passed.

CHURCHYARDS—OWSTON CHUCHYARD.—QUESTION.
MR. WATKIN WILLIAMS (for Mr. WADDY)asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether it is true that the Vicar of Owston had caused a tombstone in the churchyard to be taken up and turned round, and placed close to another tombstone so as to conceal the inscription upon it, solely because the said inscription contained the following words: "A consistent member of the Wesleyan Society upwards of 60 years?"
MR. ASSHETON CROSS, in reply, said, he had received a letter from the vicar, in which he stated that the tombstone in question was in the position in which it was placed nearly 50 years ago at the head of the grave facing the eastward. The vicar went on to say that no member of the family was now living in the parish, and 10 years ago the same grave was used for the interment of a person belonging to another family whose relatives placed another stone at the head of the grave which partially obscured the first. He thought that this was a great pity; but if the facts had been as they were stated on the Question he should have thought it a most improper proceeding.

CIVIL SERVICE OF INDIA—REGULATIONS.—QUESTION.
MR. LYON PLAYFAIRasked the under Secretary of State for India,

1203
Whether any new regulation has been made by the Secretary of State for India, or has been submitted by him to the Government of India, regarding the selection and education of candidates for the Civil Service of India; and, if so whether they will be laid before Parliament?
LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: Avery voluminous correspondence has passed between the Secretary of State and the Civil Service Commissioners and the Government of India upon the present mode of selecting and educating candidates for the Civil Service of India. The Secretary of State does propose certain alterations in the present system; but these alterations do not apply to the method of selection, but to the subsequent training of the selected candidates. The whole of these Papers are in the printer's hands, and will shortly be presented to Parliament.

METROPOLIS—TEMPLE BAR.

  QUESTION.
  MR. EDWARDSasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he purposes taking any steps with reference to the removal of Temple Bar, which is now in so dangerous a condition as to necessitate carriages passing through it at a foot pace, and causes risk as well as obstruction to the traffic in that crowded thoroughfare?
  MR. ASSHETON OROSS, in reply, said, he had placed himself in communication with the Lord Mayor on the subject, and" he found that negotiations were going on in the City of London with the Office of Works and the Metropolitan Board of Works as to what was to be done with Temple Bar. He was told that in the meantime there was no danger to anyone passing through, and he hoped that before long a final conclusion would be come to on the matter.

NAVY—COLLISION OF THE "ALBERTA" AND THE "MISTLETOE."

  QUESTIONS.
  MR. T. E. SMITHasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether he has instituted any inquiry into the circumstances of the collision between the "Alberta" and the "Mistletoe;" and, if so, whether he will state the result of such inquiry to the House?
  MR. ANDERSONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether any inquiry was made by the Admiralty into the circumstances under which the yacht "Mistletoe" was run down in August last; and, if he will lay upon the Table of the House any Report or Correspondence on the subject; and, whether any payment has been made or sanctioned by the Admiralty to anyone as solatium, or for expenses incurred through the disaster; and, if he will lay upon the Table of the House the particulars of any such payments, and any Correspondence relating thereto?
  MR. HUNT, in reply, said, he proposed to lay papers relating to the collision between the Alberta and the Mistletoe upon the Table, which would give the information required.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION ACT—PUBLIC ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. HEYGATEasked the Vice President of the Council, If he can now state to the House, the number of Public Elementary Schools (Church, British, Roman Catholic, and Board, respectively) in England and Wales on the 31st August 1874 and 1875, respectively; the number of scholars on the register, and the number of children in average attendance at such Schools at the above dates; the amount of voluntary contributions for maintenance of such Schools in each of the above years; and, the number of civil parishes (exclusive of London and Municipal Boroughs) under School Boards, as compared with the number not under School Boards, on the 1st January of the present year?
  VISCOUNT SANDON: If I were to answer all the details to which my hon. Friend's Question refers, I should occupy an inordinate portion of the time of the House with a mass of figures very difficult to follow. I propose, therefore, to lay on the Table of the House a full statement of the facts he wishes to know, and only to give now the leading figures. The total number of voluntary public elementary schools in England and Wales in August, 1874, was 11,341; and in August, 1875, 12,081. The number of board schools at the same date in 1874 was 826; in 1875, 1,136. The number of scholars on the register in

  1205
  voluntary public elementary schools in 1874 was 2,276,576; in 1875, the number was 2,392,333. The number of scholars in average attendance in the same schools was, in 1874, 1,540,466; in 1875, 1,609,895. The number of scholars on the register of board schools in 1874 was 221,026; in 1875, 351,967. The number in average attendance at the same schools was, in 1874, 138,293; in 1875, 227,285. The amount of voluntary contributions to the voluntary public elementary schools was, for 1874, £602,836; for 1875, £675,565. The number of civil parishes, exclusive of London and municipal boroughs, under school boards, was, on the 1st of January, 1876, 2,005; the number of civil parishes without school boards was, at the same date, 12,077.

  REGISTRATION OF ELECTORS—PAROCHIAL RELIEF.—QUESTION.
  MR. RICHARDasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, Whether he is aware that considerable dissatisfaction exists among the working men of Merthyr and the mining districts of South Wales owing to the omission from the Parliamentary Register, and thereby the practical disfranchisement, of several hundreds of their number who earned the money they received from the parish, during the lock-out last year, by breaking stones; and, whether money received in payment for work done is to be regarded as "parochial relief or other alms," in the sense which disqualifies the recipient from being a voter?
  MR. ASSHETON CROSS, in reply, said, that no complaint had been made from working men of Merthyr and South Wales that they had been disfranchised because they had received parochial relief. The law with regard to the matter was laid down in 2 & 3 Will. IV. c. 45, sections 35 and 36, and declared that the receipt of parochial relief should disqualify, under certain circumstances, the persons receiving it. That enactment was extended to counties by 31 Vict. c. 102, and it was a question for the revising barrister whether particular persons came under the disqualification, and his decision was subject to an appeal. He understood that in the present case no appeal had been made against the decision of the revising bar-
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  rister, and he need hardly add that the Home Secretary had no jurisdiction in the matter.

  ARMY—THE RESERVE.—QUESTION.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether any and what effect has yet been given to the following paragraph in the Recruiting Regulations, and, if not, whether it is intended to give effect to the same:
  "Within such limits as may from time to time be prescribed, soldiers may, on the recommendation of their commanding officers, and with their own free assent, after three years' Army service, pass to the Reserve, and complete in that force the unexpired portion of their engagement."
  MR. GATHORNE HARDY, in reply, said, the soldiers in the United Kingdom had already been allowed so to retire, but no application had been received from those on foreign service.

  METROPOLIS—HYDE PARK—STATE OF ROTTEN ROW.—QUESTION.
  MR. PEASEasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether his attention has been called to the fact that the riding ground in Rotten Row is much out of repair, and in some places dangerous; and, what instructions are given to the park keepers and police as to loose dogs, which jeopardise the safety of those riding on horseback?
  LORD HENRY LENNOX: My attention had been called some weeks ago to the unsatisfactory state of Rotten Row. The orginal mischief arose from very hard frosts with heavy falls of snow and rapid thaws. As soon as I was made aware of the state of things, orders were given, and for the last fortnight the whole of the staff connected with Hyde Park has been employed in trying to remedy the evil. I hope that when a little dry weather sets in, Rotten Row may be again found to be what it ought always to be. With respect to the second part of the Question, the hon. Member is not, perhaps, aware that the custody of Hyde Park is intrusted, not to the gate-keepers, but to the Metropolitan Police, and there is a clause in the Parks Regulation Act which enables them to stop loose dogs or loose riders, or, indeed, any other hotheaded persons

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  who, in pursuit of their own pleasure, are likely to endanger the safety of the general public.

NAVY—H.M.S. "DEVASTATION."

  QUESTION.
  CAPTAIN NOLAN (for Mr. A. MOORE)asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether the Admiralty have received any Report on the behaviour and seagoing qualities of H.M.S. "Devastation" since last leaving this country; and, if so, whether he will lay such re-port upon the Table of the House?
  MR. HUNT, in reply, said, a report with reference to the subject had been received and would be laid upon the Table.

  POST OFFICE—THE TELEGRAPH SERVICE.—QUESTION.
  MR. DILLWYNasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether the recommendations of the Civil Service Commissioners embodied in the recent Order in Council will apply to the provincial telegraph staff?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, in reply, said, the Order in Council would apply to that portion of the staff which was strictly clerical.

  THE SUEZ CANAL—SIR DANIEL LANGE.—QUESTION.
  MR. MONK, who had given Notice of his intention to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Sir Daniel Lange has been dismissed by his CO-directors from the office of director of the Suez Canal Company, remarked that his Question had to some extent been answered in The Times of that morning, and he desired now to put it in a different form—namely. Whether Sir Daniel Lange has been dismissed by the directors of the Suez Canal Company from the position of representative of the Company in England; and, if so, what was the cause of his dismissal?
  MR. BOURKE,, in reply, said, that no Notice had been given of the Question in its amended form, but that the answer to it had been anticipated by the letter in The Times to which the hon. Member had referred. The information contained in that letter was on the highest authority—namely, that of M.
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  de Lesseps—and the cause of the withdrawal of Sir Daniel Lange from the position he held in the Company was clearly stated. The Government had no information on the subject further than that published in The Times, and he could only refer the hon. Member to the letter in question. He might add that from M. de Lesseps' statement in The Times it was perfectly clear that Sir Daniel Lange had never been a director, but had been merely a salaried officer of the Suez Canal Company.

MERCANTILE MARINE—BLACKWOOD'S "NIGHT HELM INDICATOR."

  QUESTION.
  COLONEL NAGHTENasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, If, with a view to the prevention of collisions at sea, and consequent loss of life, he will sanction a trial on Her Majesty's ships of Sir F. Blackwood's "Night Helm Indicator?"
  MR. HUNT, in reply, said, an indicator of the same kind had already been tried, and he did not know what advantage would be derived if the question were brought forward again. He had not been able to give the matter much consideration, which, however, he would do before he came to a final decision on the subject.

OWNERS OF LAND (IRELAND)—IRISH "DOMESDAY" BOOK.

  QUESTION.
  MR. STACPOOLEasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, What is the cause of the delay in the Parliamentary publication of the Returns of the Owners of Land in Ireland, similar to those which nearly a fortnight since were published respecting the Owners of Land in England?
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: I am informed that the reasons for the delay in the publication of the Irish Domesday Book are—first, that the official instructions for the work were not issued to the Irish Local Government Board until January, 1873, some months later than in England; secondly, that the local work fell on the clerks of the unions, who could only devote their leisure time to it, and, as the unions are very large, this caused much delay. I am happy to say that the work has now

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  gone through the Press, and is expected to be ready for presentation about Easter.
  MR. JOHN BRIGHTsaid, that there was a Return which was furnished to the Government before the Land Act was brought in, which gave an admirable account so far as he was a judge; and he should think that if the Government laid that Return upon the Table it would be very satisfactory to the public.
  SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACHsaid, he was afraid that the Return would not answer the purpose, for it would not be correct down to the present time. The Return for Ireland would be, as far as possible, precisely the same as that for England.

  SUPPLY.
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

  ARMY RECRUITING.—RESOLUTION.
  CAPTAIN NOLAN, in rising to move—" That the inducements to enter the ranks of the Army ought to be increased," said, that in the absence of full information as to the increased inducements to enter the Army, of which they had heard, he had found it necessary to proceed with his Motion. He had no doubt that the Secretary of State for War had done his best to make an advantageous change in the condition of noncommissioned officers; but, unfortunately, he was not the only person to be considered, and so the hopes of non-commissioned officers as to additional pay had not been realized. With regard to the class of recruits now entering the Army, military officers as a rule spoke of them as being up to the mark, and the right hon. Gentleman himself, speaking from personal inspection of the men at the recruiting depot, had characterized them as highly satisfactory. He (Captain Nolan) had lately been in a very favourable position for forming an opinion on this subject, and his impression was that in three or four years the recruits they were now obtaining would make very fair soldiers indeed. A great many of the men went close to the figure, and had to be passed by special authority. But the point that struck him most was the almost
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  total absence of any reference to the true character of the men, it being taken upon their own statement. Often it was difficult to judge whether the materials were good or bad, owing to the difference which was presented between a man in uniform and a man in civilian's dress. It was far better to depend upon statistics than on individual impressions, and private Members were in a disadvantage in that respect, because those supplied to the House were a year behind, whilst the Secretary of State for War had them made up to the time when he spoke. He found from the Returns for 1874–5, that there were 93,114 men serving that year in the British Islands. Of that number 1,853 were in prison; 5,582 deserted, and as if the men did not return within three weeks their names were struck off the strength of the Army and were not put on again until their return, therefore, he put them down as 400. There were 14,000 courts martial in and out of the British Islands, and of that number he put down 300 as absent on trial and not in prison. There were 15,868 men under the age of 20; and of the 1,648 men discharged for bad character, he put down 1,200 in these Islands. These figures showed the strength of the Army to be 19,621, which was anything but satisfactory. In Russia no man was taken into the ranks under 21, and in Germany under 20, knowing how useless it was to take men as efficient at 17 or 18 years of age, and when it was tried by the First Napoleon, in 1813, after the Battle of Leipsic, the young troops broke down. Last year General Symonds, Inspector General of Fortifications, had brought the pecuniary view of this subject before the members of the United Service Institution. That gallant officer laid it down as a rule that no recruit should be received into the Army at a lower age than 20 years, and he calculated the cost of his training to the country when he was enlisted at a lower age than that. If a lad of 17 enlisted in the Cavalry he did not become of use as an efficient soldier for three years, and cost the country £318. If he was 18 years of age he would cost the country £236; whereas had he been enlisted when just close upon 20 years of age he would have cost only £62 for his training, so that there would be a saving of £174, which was equivalent to Is. 10 d. per day, spread over the remaining years of the

  1211
  man's service. If a lad of 17 years of age enlisted in the Infantry his training cost £132 more than it would have cost if his enlistment were delayed until he came within eight or nine months of being 20 years of age. Spreading that over the three years which remained of his years of service, it amounted to 3s. 7d. a-day more than his pay; and taking the annual average of lads enlisted under 20 years at 10,000 (in 1873 it was 15,868), it appeared the country might be saved £1,000,000 by giving up the practice of enlisting those who were under 20 years of age. The Secretary of State for War would no doubt say, that because 20,000 had enlisted during the last year that the soldier was satisfied with his position. The statistics for the five years previous to 1873 showed that 6,110 left on completing their first period of service; 12,000 men purchased their discharge; 5,703 were allowed to leave the Army before their period of service had expired; 8,000 were discharged as bad characters, and 17,594 deserted, which showed that the men were not satisfied with their condition. But then how, it might be asked, was it that men were found to enlist if they were not satisfied with the terms which they obtained? Seventy or 80 years ago our system of recruiting was conducted in a way totally different from that which now prevailed, and the recruiting sergeants used to depend very much on treating men at the public-house; but within the last 12 or 14 years all that sort of thing had been given up, and it was no longer sought to enlist men by placing them under the influence of drink. Our hopes now of securing the services of grown men as recruits—for it was not, he thought, a wise course to adopt to enlist mere lads—depended very much on the inducements we held out to them, and the extent to which we were prepared to compete with the employer of labour in the labour market. With regard to pay an Infantry soldier received nominally 14 s. per week, one half of it being in rations, &c. There was a deduction of 6d. for stoppages, for which the men got an equivalent, which made it actually 13 s. 6d.; but if Is. 10 d., the value of his pension, was added, because as he only enlisted for six years, he was not likely to get much benefit from his pension, he would receive 15 s. 4d. The ordinary rate of agricultural wages in
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  the North of England was from 18 s. to 22 s., although in the South it might not be more than 13 s. or 14 s., it being still lower, perhaps, in some parts of Ireland. It should, however, be borne in mind that a man seeking higher wages would go, not to the South of England, but to the North, where he would be likely to find a better market, and that, as things now stood, an unskilled labourer would have to give up 4s. 6d. a-week to enter the Army. He did not attach much consequence to promotion from the ranks, because up to the present time only 115 men who were not Hiding or Quartermasters had risen from the ranks, so that the ordinary soldier's chance of promotion was 1,000 to 1. The only position to which the vast majority of the private soldiers could hope to rise was that of a non-commissioned officer; and the man who attained that rank was rather below the position of a Northumberland labourer. Under these circumstances, it was no wonder that we were obliged to fall back on immature men quite unfit for war. The only other Army raised by voluntary enlistment was that of the United States; and there they had to contend with the same difficulties as we had in this country. The pay of American soldiers was, before the civil war, $13 a month, and it was raised to $16 during the civil war. After the war it was reduced for one year to $13. In that year there was more desertions than previously; but in the next year, when the pay was again raised to $16, the number of desertions fell off very considerably. The American soldier was much better treated than ours with regard to rations and clothing. Our Infantry private got 1s. a-day, and out of that he had to pay about 6d. for a portion of his clothes and rations. In this respect there was a great discrepancy between the United States and the English Armies, leaving much room for improvement on one side. The question of non-commissioned officers was not merely one of supply and demand. A recruit knew that about one-half of the men eventually became non-commissioned officers, and consequently the amount of pay given to the sergeants would draw men into the Service. With regard to inducements to enter the Army, he thought we might spend our money most profitably on the non-commissioned officers, and beyond this he had no theory

  1213
  whatever. Any inducement which might be offered ought, in his judgment, to be spread over the whole Army, and no distinction not previously existing ought to be made between one corps and another. By getting men of good character we should do away with a very great deal of desertion. If we held out better inducements to enter the Army, we should be able to pick and choose, which we could not do at present, the result being that we now got many men of bad character. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War, in the proposals he was about to make, would be able to change substantially the present state of affairs. He begged, in conclusion, to move the Resolution which stood in his name.
  Amendment proposed.
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words the inducements to enter the ranks of the Army ought to he increased,"—(Captain Nolan,)
  —instead thereof.
  GENERAL SHUTEfully agreed with the general terms of the Motion of the hon. and gallant Member for Galway, and said that the inducements to enter the Army must be increased as the short service system came into operation. He could not endorse all the remarks of the hon. and gallant Member, although he thought many of them were valuable in the extreme, and the House must recollect that his hon. and gallant Friend had lately had many opportunities of being thoroughly up in this subject. It was a great advantage to have in the House Gentlemen who either were actually serving or who had lately served in the Army, although some persons thought that officers on full pay ought not to sit in Parliament. Of course officers on full pay ought particularly to avoid questions of discipline; and, indeed, in his opinion, such questions ought to be regarded as altogether foreign to the debates of the House of Commons. The country ought to be most grateful to the present War Minister for his determination to combine the strictest economy with efficiency. It was easy for irresponsible outsiders to say that they should give larger inducements to men to enter the Army; but if this were not done with discretion certain people would say—
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  "Here are the Tories come into power again, and there is a large increase of the Army Estimates." Some very extraordinary statements were occasionally made to the more unintelligent portion of their constituents on naval and military matters. The other day an eloquent Hibernian, addressing a mob, asked them what was the use of all the twaddle which had been uttered about ironclads, and after referring to the fate of Admiral Byng, declared his opinion that a public execution in Trafalgar Square under the shadow of the glorious Nelson Column would do more good than any number of speeches in the House of Commons. He rather thought the orator considered that the First Lord of the Admiralty ought to be the victim. More must be spent upon the Army if we wanted a really efficient one. Like other employers of labour, we must make the service better worth having. As it was, one-fourth of our regular soldiers were inefficient from youth, character, or crime, not including men in hospital, who were always more numerous in the case of a youthful army than of one matured. The Army surgeons might, he thought, do more to prevent the possibility of boys of 15 passing themselves off as youths of 19; but the fact remained that in all the regiments which represented maturity by the standard of stature—such as the Guards, the Artillery, and the Heavy Cavalry—we were short of men. He confessed that when he was Adjutant he preferred youths as recruits because they were more easily moulded into good soldiers. But then, with a system of long service, there was ample time for this work of conversion. He was not now going to advocate long service. A Reserve was positively necessary to meet the requirements of modern warfare, and they could not have a Reserve unless they had short service, and they could not have short service unless they had some means by which they could secure men of better character and of more advanced age. The real fact was that, to use the vulgar proverb, old birds worth having were not to be caught by chaff. When he last spoke he had given eight suggestions, and regretted that they had not been reported. He knew, of course, that Members could not expect their speeches to be fully reported except those delivered from the front benches. Still, it was to be regretted that the points of

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  professional speeches were not appreciated and given. He did not, however, blame the reporters—perhaps it was hardly to be expected that they could see the points of professional speeches, and he had therefore sent a copy of the eight suggestions to which he referred to a local paper, in which they had thus been correctly reported. He was strongly in favour of a proposal made in 1872 by Captain O'Hea, who inspected the drill of the industrial schools of London for the Society of Arts—namely, that the boys should be drafted at the age of 16, when their parochial maintenance ceased, into local depôts, there to be trained until they were 18, and then put into the Army. It was calculated that in the London district alone 3,000 recruits might be obtained by acting on that proposal, and they would be soldiers of a better stamp and more suitable for promotion to the rank of non-commissioned officers than the great majority of men enlisted under the present system. Admitting that the inducements with regard to men would be expensive, only just let them think what was done with regard to the officers by the late Government. They had abolished Purchase and the whole plan of retirement; the cost to the country would be £38,000,000, and he only wished that half that sum had been spent on the men. He was immensely glad to see that it was proposed to concentrate two or three corps on a strategical point, because the mere collection of so large a force at a given place would be a most valuable manœuvre. If 160,000 men were concentrated, say, at Redhill, and bivouacked there, even though it were for only one night, put in position, and sent home next day, it would be worth more than dozens of sham fights. The questions affecting the Army and Navy were not of mere Military and Naval, but of great national importance. They were the only real insurance of this country; and if they had a great channel misfortune and a great land misfortune, and London and Woolwich were ever at the mercy of an enemy, they would have to pay four times as much as France. He was sure that neither the House nor the country would grudge the expense that was undoubtedly necessary for their Army and Navy, provided the increased cost would ensure efficiency.
  COLONEL MUREsaid, that the end of next year, when the men who had
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  joined the Army for three years began to go out, the difficulty which they at present had to contend with would be trebled. It was curious to look back into the history of the inducements which had been given from time to time to the Army. If they recalled to mind the pay which the soldier had in the days of bounty and pensions, they would find that whilst the demand in the labour market had been multiplied, they had reduced the inducements which were offered to men to become soldiers. They had also in a great measure increased the labour of the soldier; so that they had these three conditions—namely, a far larger demand on the labour market, decreased pay for the soldier, and increased work. It had been said that it was beginning now to be acknowledged and understood that after all the Army was only a branch of the labour market. He should like to ask how the head of any private firm would be able to get men if, while increasing the work required of them, he at the same time decreased their pay, It was said—"Oh, but the condition of the soldier is improved; we give him now facilities for private theatricals and entertainments in barracks, education, and things of that kind." Well, supposing an employer of labour went to his workmen and said—"I will increase your work and decrease your pay, but will give you compulsory education and some facilities for private theatricals." Why, any employer of labour who adopted such a means of trying to get men would be looked on as a lunatic, and his firm would probably soon come to ruin. The question was—What were they to do? It was a curious thing that even now, notwithstanding the enormous difficulties they had to contend with, the Press, and many men apparently qualified to judge, entertained a strong opinion that by short service they would facilitate recruiting in the face of the increased demand on the labour market, which was the inevitable result. He thought nothing would be more calculated to injure the Army than to have shorter service, unless they at the same time considerably increased the pay, so as to get a better class of man. His hon. and gallant Friend (Captain Nolan), who had introduced this subject in a very able and comprehensive speech, had pointed out that one of the means

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  by which, they might the better induce men to enlist would be by offering greater advantages to non-commissioned officers. In that he (Colonel Mure) cordially agreed, and he was glad that the Secretary of State for War had taken the matter into consideration in the Army Estimates. There was one point which he (Colonel Mure) would like to press on the right hon. Gentleman; he had now, not only for noncommissioned officers but for privates, offered increased pay—for the deferred pay must undoubtedly be regarded as an increase—but he could assure him that one of the reasons why they had such difficulty in procuring men of a venturous spirit as recruits was the feeling that there was an immoral atmosphere in the Army. That was always a difficult and dangerous subject to talk about; and when one had been in the Army oneself it seemed, to use a popular expression, like fouling one's own nest. But they had the fact that year after year between 1,600 and 1,700 men were poured out of the Army as bad characters; and he would like right hon. Gentlemen to consider how far men of the right stamp were deterred from entering the Service by the knowledge that bad characters were indiscriminately admitted. He knew, of course, that if they laid down a rule that no man should be permitted to enter the Army without producing a certificate that he was not a felon, they would in some sense diminish the number of recruits. But then it was clear they would not have to turn out of the Army every year 1,600 or 1,700 men as bad characters, and therefore, on the whole, they would be none the worse off in regard to numbers. By enlisting men of bad character they corrupted and destroyed very many other young men of merely weak character. It would be curious to know how many of the 1,600 or 1,700 who were annually discharged from the Army were bad characters when they originally joined, and how many had become bad through entering the Army, and being there contaminated by vicious company. As a general rule, the tendency of military life and discipline was to improve a man's character, and it was satisfactory to know that in a great measure regimental life had the effect of turning many bad, weak young fellows into good soldiers. But it appeared to him that a
  1218
  great deal of that social good was swept away by the evil practice of bringing felons and other bad characters into the Army to contaminate their comrades. He thought it would be worth while for the right hon. Gentleman to try the experiment of refusing to accept a recruit unless he produced a certificate from his clergyman or the magistrates of his district to the effect that he was not a felon. In addition to the other plans which had been proposed, he trusted the right hon. Gentleman would take this one into serious consideration.
  COLONEL LOYD LINDSAYsaid, that the great problem was how to draw into the ranks a better class of men, and the Minister for War was proceeding in the right direction by giving better pay to non-commissioned officers and deferred pay to private soldiers. The great discrepancy which existed between the pay in civil and military service ought by degrees to be diminished. He was therefore grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for proposing to increase the pay of the Guards; they had always had larger pay than regiments of the Line, and it should be remembered that the expenses they were bound to incur were greater. He would be glad if the right hon. Gentleman could see his way to increase the pay of the soldiers of the Line, and he believed that many of the reforms which we all wished to see introduced would be greatly facilitated by getting a better class of men. Able as a civilian Minister for War might be, and thoroughly as he might have acquainted himself with the details of his Department, there was one thing he could not learn, and that was how men would behave when they were brought in face of the enemy. Those men who enlisted and then deserted and robbed us, and then enlisted and deserted and robbed us again, and went on doing so, sometimes, as we had seen lately in the police reports, as many as 17 times, in foreign service were apt to leave their comrades in the lurch. Although he had not seen service since the Crimean War, he was not absent a day during the two years in the Crimea, and he had seen all the great engagements and many of the actions in the trenches, and he said deliberately that because a man were a red coat it was no reason he should be a hero. Although a soldier might not run away, he could, if he were so in-

  1219
  clined, avail himself of a great many excuses to evade his duty and keep himself out of danger; and from his (Colonel Loyd Lindsay's) experience he should say that the class of men now coming into the Army were not the sort of men he should like to rely on. It was most essential to get good, reliable men, and that could only be done by offering higher pay and greater advantages than were at present enjoyed by the rank and file of the Army. Now that the short service system was coming into operation, and men were to be passed rapidly through the ranks, if they were not of a higher class than at present the result might be to bring discredit on the Service by distributing through the country a set of men who were unworthy of having worn the Queen's uniform. If the right hon. Gentleman would say that it was necessary that the pay of a soldier should be assimilated to the pay of a policeman or of a porter at a railway, and would ask the House to sanction that, he (Colonel Loyd Lindsay) thought it would do more towards putting the Army on a proper and satisfactory footing than any changes which the right hon. Gentleman might have introduced.
  CAPTAIN NOLANexpressed a wish to withdraw his Motion. ["No!"]
  Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.

  ARMY—MILITARY SCANDAL ATHYTHE.—OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. SANDFORD, in calling attention to the recent military scandal at Hythe, said, it appeared that there prevailed among the officers there, as among many of our regiments, two practices which he thought were most disgraceful—namely, that of breaking into an officer's room, and on some occasions pouring water on him, which was called "drawing;" and that of breaking into an officer's room and scattering about the contents, which was called "making hay." An officer at Hythe in the course of last autumn became unpopular with his brother officers. They practised "drawing" upon him, which he did not report; but he did report them when they practised "making hay" in his room. The consequence of his reporting
  1220
  them was that late one evening upon the public parade at Folkestone he was forced to enter into a pugilistic encounter with them. Several other officers stood round, kept a ring, and prevented the astonished public from interfering. The language used by the officers, he was sorry to say, was of such a description that he would not venture to repeat a single word of it to the House. This affair was also reported; a Court of Inquiry was held, and certain sentences were passed. When the country had to pay £14,250,000 for the Army, it was only right that they should know the state of its discipline; but the particular reason why he called attention to this occurrence was that he wished to show to the House the light in which conduct of the kind he had described was viewed by the authorities, as indicated by the sentences passed. What was done to the officers who had broken into a brother officer's room, and he (Mr. Sandford) believed poured water upon him upon the first occasion? They were simply ordered to join their regiments. Was that a real punishment? He had always understood that, according to military discipline, the senior officer present was held responsible; but on this occasion that officer did not appear to have been even reprimanded. Neither had the officer in command of the depot been reprimanded for allowing such scenes to occur under his eye. When the second case occurred, and there was a Court of Inquiry, the delinquents were called up for punishment. One was dismissed the Army, and another was "condemned to wear his uniform." The latter sentence he would not further allude to, than by simply observing that a mistake had been made at the Horse Guards in the wording of the sentence. An officer concerned in the "drawing" was only slightly reprimanded. When he found these facts, that the senior officer had not been reprimanded, and that the officers implicated in these transactions had only been slightly reprimanded, it seemed to him that the War authorities were almost condoning the offence. They had heard lately of insubordination among the men; but how could they expect subordination among the men when there was insubordination among the officers? Some persons, he knew, thought his right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for

  1221
  War was indifferent on this subject; but he believed that his right hon. Friend wished to put down conduct such as that which had been referred to. He believed that the Commander-in-Chief also desired to put it down. Who, then, was it that stood between their wishes and the just enforcement of military discipline? It was not his present intention to move for the Reports of the Court of Inquiry, because to do so would appear to imply a Vote of Censure upon the Secretary for War or the Commander-in-Chief. All he now asked was that real measures should be adopted to put down the disgraceful practices to which he had referred. He understood that circulars were sent down to the officers in command; that officers were asked whether any practical joking was indulged in, and that none was reported, though such proceedings were heard of. He did not wish the sham circular should be sent round; but that the officers commanding districts, and the senior officers, should be held responsible for occurrences of this kind. If his right hon. Friend would give him a satisfactory assurance upon this subject, he would only be too happy to allow this question to be buried in oblivion; but if, on the other hand, such assurance were not given, he would on the earliest opportunity move an Address, praying Her Majesty to take energetic steps to repress such disorders.

ARMY—KNIGHTSBRIDGE BARRACKS.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. J. E. YORKErose to call attention to the proposed re-erection of Knightsbridge Barracks on the present site, in reference to which he had given Notice to move—
  "That, having regard to the Report of the Barrack: Commission of 1863, which pronounces the site of the Cavalry Barracks at Knightsbridge to he 'especially objectionable,' and considering that the width of ground available for their re-erection on that site, already insufficient, will he further diminished to the extent of thirty feet by the proposed widening of the Knightsbridge Road, this House is of opinion that the said Barracks ought not to be rebuilt on their present site."
  He was aware that, by the Forms of the House, he could not press the Motion to a division, and he would content himself by calling attention to the subject of it
  1222
  before the House went into Committee. This question had given rise to much misrepresentation and prejudice, and he wished, in the first place, to make a few disclaimers. He disclaimed the charge of intending, by this Motion, to throw any imputation upon those admirable troops who now occupied the Knightsbridge Barracks. He had not come down there to place himself in the ridiculous position of a householder who had female members of his establishment who might be subjected to the insults of brutal and licentious soldiers. During the time he had lived in the neighbourhood he had never to his knowledge seen a soldier of the Life Guards either drunk or in any way misconduct himself. He disclaimed being on that occasion the organ of any interested agitation. If there were any persons specially interested in the removal of those barracks from their present site they were the landowners whose property faced them. Those landowners were, first, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; secondly, the noble Lord the Member for Down (Lord A. E. Hill Trevor); and, thirdly, the hon. Member for Galway (Mr. Mitchell Henry). Neither of those three had ever directly or indirectly taken any part in the agitation on that subject. That agitation, no doubt, had been promoted by those who experienced the inconvenience resulting from the narrowness of the road in that neighbourhood, and it was a matter of comparative indifference to those persons whether the barracks remained on their present site or not, provided the road was widened. The Knightsbridge Barracks were erected in the time of the Lord George Gordon's riots, about the end of the last century. They were constructed according to the sanitary views of the period; they were not intended to accommodate women or children, and they stood at a very inconvenient angle to the road. The first official mention he found of them was in the Report of the Barrack Commissioners in 1863, who reported that they were the worst barracks in the Kingdom, owing to their defective construction and the difficulty of effecting any improvement in them, and that the site was most objectionable. The men's rooms were placed over the stables, the smell of which saturated the whole of the barracks, while there was very little free circulation of air. He did not wish to enter into any controversy with the

  1223
  illustrious Duke at the head of the Army, and if it had been stated that an atmosphere impregnated with ammoniacal exhalations was fit for Her Majesty's troops he would not venture to question that statement, not having sufficient knowledge on the subject; but he would commend its consideration to the medical Press and those who were best qualified to form an opinion on the matter. The first move on the subject originated with the Chelsea Vestry in 1863, who represented the condition of the barracks to the then Under Secretary for War (Earl De Grey), who stated that there were no barracks in the United Kingdom so bad as Knightsbridge Barracks for the accommodation of the Household Troops, and that it had long been the wish of the Secretary for War to remove them and make proper improvements. In 1867 again a deputation on the same subject, headed by the Duke of Westminster and the right hon. Member for the University of London (Mr. Lowe), waited on Sir John Pakington (now Lord Hampton), who appeared to be much agitated by doubts, and could not arrive at any con-elusion on the matter; but he said he was struck with the suggestion of the right hon. Member for the University that the barracks should be removed to Chelsea. General Peel was the first who suggested the Millbank site, which was afterwards taken up by the late Government, There were certain unsavoury associations about Millbank, through its connection with the prison, which might make gallant men not like to occupy barracks there; but if the prison had been removed according to the plan of the late Government he believed the proposal would have been sound, at least financially. Last year an outbreak of scarlet fever, or as the Secretary of State for War called it, of scarlatina, occurred at the Knightsbridge Barracks, causing great alarm in the neighbourhood, and he received a Petition to present from 800 householders of all ranks living in the neighbourhood, praying that something might be done. The Secretary of State for War then appeared much disinclined to do anything in the matter, saying that those barracks were the most favourite barracks in the Kingdom, and that the men were especially fond of them. He believed, however, that he might now congratulate the right hon. Gentlemen on having since changed
  1224
  his mind. The logic of facts had proved too much for him; the barracks had taken matters into their own hands by their subsidence, and the gallant troops had to yield to necessity. He had not yet seen the plans of the Government, but supposed the House would hear something respecting them in the course of the evening. He believed they might be fairly described as involving the widening of the road 30 feet, and the rebuilding of the barracks on ground before reported by the Barrack Commissioners to be insufficient, and which was now to be curtailed throughout the entire length by no less than 30 feet. He had spoken to many military men on the subject, and, amongst others, to Lord Sandhurst, who stated that, as a matter of common sense, it was absolutely preposterous to propose to rebuild the barracks on such a site. What he (Mr. Yorke) particularly wished to impress upon the Government was this, that this was practically a question of the health of the soldier. Of course, if the site were the only one available, then the £100,000 should be expended on the re-erection of the barracks. But was that so? He had the authority of a gentleman of considerable experience, Captain Douglas Gort, for saying that, in his opinion, another site could be found which would be very much better than the present. The area occupied by the Royal Military Asylum at Chelsea was over 10 acres, and the expenditure of £20,000 would provide all the additional accommodation that would be required; while, at a cost of £40,000, military schools to replace those now existing could be erected in the country. The adoption, therefore, of the Royal Military Asylum for the purposes of the barracks would save a sum of £40,000, and the boys attending the schools could not but be benefited by the change. But he was told that the great objection to the removal of the barracks was founded on strategical considerations. It had been said by the illustrious Duke the Commander-in-Chief in "another place" that he infinitely preferred the present site to any other for strategical purposes. He (Mr. Yorke) had received many military opinions on the point, but there was no unanimity amongst them. If it were necessary that troops should be quartered in the Park, there were other sites available there which were much better than

  1225
  the present narrow one. Let them take, for instance, the Deputy Ranger's lodge, garden, and paddock, and they would have an excellent site, where Cavalry would be placed in the immediate vicinity of the powder magazine, with its 1,500,000 cartridges, which were now protected by one gallant sentry. They had no reason whatever—under the present excellent Government, in which he had the fullest confidence—to apprehend an outbreak of civil disorder; but they should remember that during three years, according to the present proposal, the Park would be without the presence of the military. He had suggested these sites for the consideration of the Government, and should take another opportunity of again referring to the subject. It had been said that certain persons in the neighbourhood were greatly interested, and would benefit by the removal. No doubt the Ecclesiastical Commissioners and some other persons would gain by the increased value of their territory, because instead of looking upon a high and ugly wall they would be able to look into a beautiful garden. He would only add, in reference to the question of site, that the barracks might be built on the eastern portion of the ground occupied by the Exhibition; and if the building was to have, as the illustrious Duke said it would, a handsome elevation, it would look exceedingly well if placed in that commanding position, where it would have all the strategical advantages which had been pointed out as necessary. He did not think the House would be content that £100,000 should be spent on the re-building of the barracks on their present site. When they compared the care which was taken of the health of the soldier with that which was taken of the convict and the pauper, it seemed to him that the natural order of things was reversed. For his part, he considered that soldiers should be better cared for than paupers, and paupers than criminals. Instead of that, however, sanitary conditions were more rigorously attended to in prisons than in workhouses, and in workhouses than in barracks. If the Government carried out the present ill-considered scheme, it would, he believed, be but another and a signal instance of the absurd manner in which such matters were conducted in this country. He hoped, however, that better counsels would prevail, and he
  1226
  humbly submitted that, in consideration of the health of the soldier, the confined space at Knightsbridge was utterly un-suited for the re-construction of the barracks on the present site.
  MR. FORSYTH, in supporting the suggestion of his hon. Friend, desired earnestly to disclaim any intention of casting the slightest imputation upon the soldiers occupying, or who had occupied, Knightsbridge Barracks. If, however, they were angels in white robes and with waving wings, the objections to the present site would remain. Now that new barracks were to be erected, the best possible site for the purpose ought to be chosen. Two objections had been urged against the removal of the barracks—first, that vicinity to the Park was necessary for the purpose of evolutions; and, next, that it was desirable to have troops in the Park to be ready in case of civil tumult. The first objection was met by the fact that if the barracks were placed at Millbank or Chelsea, a trot of 10 minutes would bring the troops to Hyde Park. With regard to the second objection, it should be remembered that for 100 years it had not been necessary to put down tumult or sedition in London by calling in the aid of the military. The people of this metropolis were the most law-abiding people of any country in the world, and he was sorry to hear the probability of sedition or insurrection assigned as the reason for continuing these barracks on the present site. The real objection was not that the soldiers were not orderly, but that unsightly buildings, such as music-halls, public-houses, and tobacconists' shops, which now fronted the barracks, must be stereotyped as long as the barracks remained. The authority of the great Duke of Wellington had been cited in favour of these barracks; but since his time an admirable access had been opened up from Millbank to the City, so that soldiers could go at a hand gallop all the way along the Thames Embankment, except in turning round the Houses of Parliament to get upon the Embankment. The right hon. Gentleman the Prime Minister, at the banquet of the Royal Academy the year before last, had pictured the idea of Pericles walking from Trafalgar Square to the Mansion House, and had described the ugliness he would see; but he (Mr. Forsyth) would

  1227
  say, let us imagine Pericles setting out from Kensington to go to Apsley House. He would pass by palatial structures, squares, terraces, and gardens, and the Albert Monument, with its beautiful sculptures, until he came to a narrow isthmus, with a dingy red brick wall on one side, and a congeries of the ugliest houses in the metropolis on the other. Pericles would surely think that he had already passed through London, and was entering some insignificant village on the east. As to pecuniary interests, he (Mr. Forsyth) certainly lived not far from the Knightsbridge Barracks, but he did not believe it would make £5 a-year difference in the value of his house if they were pulled down. A lady, however, could not walk with comfort from Prince's Gardens, to Sloane Street without hearing sounds and seeing sights which must be offensive. It was said in praise of Augustus that he left Rome of marble, having found it of brick. It was not likely that any English Government would do this for London, but it ought to take every opportunity of beautifying the metropolis; and he trusted that this opportunity would not be lost to rid the neighbourhood of a building which must be unsightly and unseemly.
  MR. HAYTERsaid, he hoped Her Majesty's Government would accept the Motion. During the riots in Hyde Park it became necessary to have 250 troopers to assist the police; but when the Cavalry came out they had not acted until the Infantry were drawn up in line with fixed bayonets, when they formed on their flanks. Consequently, if such proximity was necessary for the security of Hyde Park, they must build Infantry barracks also. Why should not the Government utilize the present barracks at Kensington? They were built only 15 years ago, and could accommodate 200 Household Infantry, and there were stables for 60 troop horses. There was some additional space which the Government might obtain at a small expense, and the barracks might easily be made to accommodate a regiment of Household Cavalry. The troopers at the Knightsbridge Barracks never went into the Park except for exercise, and the Kensington Barracks would be equally near for that purpose, while they would be half a mile nearer to the evolution ground at Wormwood Scrubbs.
  SIR. JAMES HOGGopposed the Motion. He could bear professional testimony to the usefulness of Hyde Park for exercising the Cavalry in the Knightsbridge Barracks. It might be that 100 years had elapsed since the military had been employed in aid of the civil power; but he had been in Knightsbridge Barracks when two regiments of Cavalry and a force of Infantry, Artillery, and police were assembled in readiness, in the event of a breach of the peace; and it might again be necessary, when the popular mind was excited, to have soldiers of various arms in the best strategical positions ready to act. Barracks had been spoken of as necessarily unsightly; but he could not see why, if the present building were pulled down, the barracks to be built in their place should not be as handsome as any other building. The Metropolitan Board of Works and the War Office had met each other in a liberal spirit in regard to the widening of the road opposite to the barracks, and when the present eyesore was removed he had no doubt that the new building would be an ornament to the metropolis. As to the character of the soldiers, he believed that a better body of men than the Life Guards and the Blues never had the honour of serving the Queen. There was no connection whatever between the existence of the barracks and the existence of the houses opposite. When soldiers had leave of absence it was for a specific purpose; it was not for the purpose of hanging about the public-houses in the neighbourhood of the barracks, which they would not be likely to do, because if they were seen they would expose themselves to having leave refused in future. Therefore, the public-houses were not frequented by the soldiers on leave, and, if the public-houses were a local nuisance, it was the fault of the licensing magistrates, and not of the military authorities in keeping the barracks there. If the houses opposite were of the ugly character that had been described, why did not the freeholders pull them down and build something else? When the thoroughfare was widened he hoped the improvement would effect all the change that could be deemed necessary. That the district was a healthy one he knew from the experience of himself and of the regiment with which he served for

  1229
  the space of 18 years. He hoped the Government would abide by their determination to keep the barracks where they were.
  SIR ANDREW LUSKsaid, there was no doubt that all those living in the neighbourhood would rather have the barracks in some other place. He had nothing to say against the character of the soldiers, and he was very much annoyed to hear one officer after another in this House saying things most disparaging to the reputation of the men in many ways. He was quite of opinion of the illustrious Duke, who said in "another place" that he would be prepared at a very short notice to go any where with our troops; but although the men might go to fight our battles, we did not want them at all times in our immediate neighbourhood. The language which was used by the soldiers was not all that could be desired by those who might be passing accompanied by ladies, and he hoped the Government would consider the desirability of removing the barracks to some other place. The public of the metropolis would be pleased if another site were chosen, and there were really no strategic reasons in favour of the present position.
  MR. DILLWYNsaid, it had always hitherto been argued that it would be wasteful to pull down barracks which were sufficient for the purpose for which they were intended, and which he understood the Secretary of State last year to say were good, and answered very well for their purpose; and under those conditions he, for one, had never joined in any agitation for the removal of the barracks. But now he was told that the barracks were tumbling down, and new barracks would have to be built on the same site or elsewhere. It seemed to him now, that so for from being a waste of public money to build them elsewhere, it would be a waste of public money to rebuild them on their present site. The site was inconvenient and ill adapted for the purpose, and to build new barracks there would be to perpetuate the bad class of houses that existed in what ought to be the very best site in London. In saying this, however, he did not wish it to be supposed that he considered the presence there of the Horse Guards to be objectionable as having lived immediately
  1230
  beyond that particular district for 14 or 15 years, and having had very good opportunities of observing the character of the soldiers, he was bound to say that a better conducted set of men than the Household Troops he could not wish to see.
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, there would be some force in the objection to re-building the barracks on their present site, if in re-building them it were impossible to introduce all those improved sanitary provisions which had been recommended by the Army Sanitary Commission and had already been adopted at Shorncliffe, Colchester, and elsewhere; but, as the reverse would be the case, and no sanitary provision would be neglected, the argument based on the anticipated unhealthiness of the new barracks fell to the ground, for it was admitted that the site itself was healthy and one of the finest in London. As to the disreputable houses, it appeared that they were not frequented by the occupants of the barracks, and would probably remain, even if the barracks were taken away. It had been asserted that the late Government wanted to remove the barracks to Millbank; but he asked what proof there was that they ever came to such a decision? No doubt notices were given to persons holding-houses between Albert Gate and the barracks; it was supposed that the barracks were to be removed, and some one said they were going to Millbank. But all the notices were withdrawn, and therefore the Government did not think fit to carry their plan out; or it did not refer to the barracks at all. It had been asked why they did not remove the barracks to the middle of the Park; but there they would be more offensive than in their present position. In such a case there must be a public road through the Park to carry in supplies, and to carry away the manure from the horses. It was this that was suggested as an improvement to Hyde Park. Great pains had been taken to ascertain what could be done on the present site, and the result was there would be full cubic space, proper superficial space, and ample window space, and, indeed, all the requirements of the Army Sanitary Commission would be fully met; and the stables would be ventilated, not into occupied rooms, as in too many gentlemen's houses in London—though he had

  1231
  never heard that coachmen and their families were particularly unhealthy—but by special shafts into the open air, so that the soldiers and their families would not breathe the polluted air of the stables below them. The whole of the agitation against the proposal was confined to the neighbourhood; it was not the public, and scarcely the public of Knightsbridge, who supported it. The secretary seemed to put down his supporters as persons who sooner than not get rid of these barracks would become Republicans and would abolish the regiment of Guards. ["Oh."] The Secretary of the Knightsbridge Improvement Committee said something of that kind, and he was for doing away with the barracks with a very high hand, indeed. He talked about their not giving way to public opinion; but he had not public opinion, and indeed scarcely Knightsbridge opinion, to support him. There were residents in the immediate neighbourhood who had represented to him that there was no necessity for abandoning that site and to take any trouble to find a new one. As to Millbank, he should be ashamed to send the Household Troops there, for everybody knew that, from the associations of the place, they would be called "gaol birds" and all sorts of nicknames of that kind. He should also be ashamed to send them into the Park; because the opinion of the general public had condemned most emphatically the taking of a large slice of the Park for the purpose of a barrack and new roads to it. Why, when Mr. Ayrton, as First Commissioner of Works, suggested taking a small bit from the esplanade of St. James's Park for public buildings there was a great outcry throughout London against depriving the public of any of its open spaces. They had been going on for 12 years seeking, but without finding, an available site, and now they had all these different sites suggested. Well, he was content with the present site. It was given by George III. as a site for a barrack, and he believed it could be made both pleasant and healthy. He could give the assurance that, without any extreme expense, an architectural character would be imparted to the new building which he was sure would be satisfactory. It had been proposed to sell the site of the barracks for houses to be built on it, but that would be an interference with
  1232
  the Park which would be wholly unjustifiable. Besides that, the site was given solely for the purposes of a barrack, and if used for any other purpose it would fall into the hands of the Woods and Forest Commissioners, and the money paid for it must be handed to them and could not be applied to the purposes of a new building. When he had this subject first thrust upon him he was told that the barracks would hang together for many years, and he thought they would. He did not believe in the excessive unhealthiness of the site. That was contradicted by the medical reports. It was far better in that respect than the St. John's Wood Barracks. He was willing, therefore, to take the barracks as they stood, but the foundations had given way, and they could not therefore leave the troops there with safety to their physical condition. In 1851 there was a competition for the building of Cavalry and Infantry barracks, and prizes were awarded. The prize for Infantry barracks was gained by the gentleman who had the superintending of the building of Chelsea Barracks, though not exactly upon his plan. It was understood that whoever got the prizes would be employed to build barracks. Mr. Wyatt, a gentleman of great experience and ability, got the prize for Cavalry barracks, and he had a claim on the Secretary of State to be employed whenever a Cavalry barrack was going to be built. When a Cavalry barrack was to be built at Nottingham he received from the then Secretary at War—Sir George Lewis—the assurance that his claim was admitted. When it was proposed that these barracks should be rebuilt, he might perhaps have said that it was rather a case of re-construction than of re-building; he did object to have an encumbrance of this kind hanging over him in the nature of a claim which had been admitted for 20 years, he therefore sent for Mr. Wyatt. He found him most ready to enter into terms; and, therefore, so far as architecture was concerned, he could say, the building would be in the hands of one of the most competent architects England could produce. He had been employed in every part of England, and the houses he had built fully showed his skill in his profession. It was said they might go to Chelsea; but if the barracks were objectionable on their present site, might

  1233
  they not be equally objectionable in Chelsea? Besides, although Chelsea might be very healthy for boys, it did not necessarily follow that Chelsea would be equally healthy for the Household Troops. Why remove them from their present site if they could find sufficient accommodation? Hon. Members who came from that neighbourhood spoke of the site as a most unpopular one for the Guards; but he rather thought otherwise. He believed it was very grateful to the public to see the troops pass, and those who frequented the Park at early hours must often have seen the people standing in front of the barracks to hear the band play. That, perhaps, was a small matter; but he did not see why, without cause, they should make any change in that respect. He might go further. He objected very much to the terms in which his hon. Friend had couched his Motion. They were not justified by the Report he quoted; and, so far from there being special objections to these barracks the word "especially" applied to Portman Street Barracks, and for reasons given in that Report, such as their being surrounded by high houses which obstructed the free air. An enclosed yard to which objection had been made, would be entirely obviated, because the barracks would practically form an open street with one entrance in the Park and the other in the road, instead of the present narrow, dull, heavy square. They would get rid of one of the most objectionable features in the present arrangement—he referred to the fact that the officers' apartments were over the infirmary. The barn which disfigured the Park would be moved away, and in its place good and ample accommodation would be provided for the forage for the troops. A hospital of a larger kind would be provided, to be shared with the Foot Guards, where the troops would probably receive greater attention, All those great improvements would be effected. Having, therefore, a site unobjectionable in itself—for the barracks had not been proved to be any nuisance to the neighbourhood, though no doubt the new barracks would be a great improvement in that respect—and it should be remembered that the barracks were not brought to the neighbourhood, but the houses in the neighbourhood had come to the barracks, he thought it a little strong to say that the
  1234
  barracks should be removed for the benefit of the neighbourhood. The street would be widened. Twenty feet would be taken off the very widest part; but it tapered away to absolutely nothing, and the road throughout would be 60 feet wide. Of course, he did not wish to incur the expense of putting plans on the Table before he knew that the House would sanction the proposal; but if his hon. Friend would call on him he would be happy to show him the plans. He had carefully considered the whole of this subject. He was responsible for the health of the men, and he believed every measure had been taken to secure their health. With regard to any apprehensions that the services of the troops might be required to be used against our own people, everybody knew that in a metropolis like this a certain number of bad characters might congregate that would require military force to disperse them, and there was nothing more calculated to save human life when the military was called on to aid the civil power than the use of Cavalry instead of Infantry, who were too often obliged to fire to effect that purpose. With regard to recruiting, he would reserve much of what he had to say until he made his statement on the Army Estimates. A proposal had been made for training boys for the Army; but although it was perhaps not an impracticable one, it would involve a serious outlay—as much as £60, probably, for every recruit of 18 years of age. Then it was suggested by the hon. and gallant Member for Renfrewshire (Colonel Mure) that men entering the Army should be required to show certificates of good character. If the hon. and gallant Member had known as much about "characters" as he (Mr. Hardy) did, he would probably not have expressed so high an opinion of their utility. A case which had occurred in a village of his acquaintance illustrated rather forcibly how such a proposal would work. A man of notoriously bad character, who was mixed up in most of the mischief of the neighbourhood, took it into his head that he would emigrate. Well, to be assisted by the Emigration Commissioners he required to have a character, and accordingly he went round to the farmers and other people of respectability in the parish, begging them to testify to his good behaviour, which they all did. They gave him a character such as nobody

  1235
  had ever seen or known of before for excellence, in order to get rid of him. No one was more astonished at this result than the man himself, and after looking at his certificate, with its long list of signatures—" Well," said he, "I had no idea I was so much esteemed in the neighbourhood; I think I shall stay." He did so, and no one could breathe a word afterwards against him, because he had this written character stating what an excellent man he was; and it would be something of the same kind if they insisted upon characters with the recruits. A man who made himself obnoxious in a particular neighbourhood and who proposed to enlist would seldom find any difficulty in procuring one. He had given an unusual amount of information in the Estimates this year, which had been used in the speeches that had been delivered before he had had an opportunity of saying a word; but he would reserve his reply until the House was in Committee. He how came to the statement of the hon. Member for Maldon (Mr. Sandford), and on this point he could only say that both the military and civil authorities were determined as far as possible to put down such offences as had been described. The punishment inflicted had been spoken of as small, but dismissal from the Army was a very serious thing. It remained as a stigma on a man's character for the rest of his life, and operated as a serious warning to others. No man set his face more sternly against such offences in the Army than the Commander-in-Chief, and whenever they were brought under his notice they would assuredly not be lightly passed over. For his own part, although he deprecated any discussion in that House on the discipline of the Army, he was not at all sorry to have his attention called to particular cases that occurred, and he could assure hon. Members that officers who misbehaved themselves in any way would find in him a stern judge.

  ARMY—MILITIA QUARTERMASTERS—PENSIONS.—OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. W. PRICErose to call attention to the case of the Militia Quartermasters. The hon. Member stated that the full pay of those officers, after serving 40, and in some instances 60, years, 20 of which had been spent in the Line, was
  1236
  only £73 a-year, and that was utterly inadequate, as they had to support the rank of captains in the Army. He presumed that the subject had been carefully considered by the right hon. Gentleman, and, therefore, it was not his intention to move any Resolution, but he hoped some statement would be made on the subject.
  MR. STANLEYexplained the case of the Militia Quartermasters. It had been determined some time ago, and he believed it was agreed to by successive Secretaries of State, that it was not expedient to continue the appointment of Quartermasters, as such, to Militia regiments. Under Lord Cardwell's scheme it was decided that there should be a Quartermaster to each brigade depôt, and that he should perform the duties of Quartermaster of Militia. It was true that the pensions were not on so liberal a scale as he personally wished; but when taken in comparison with the other branches of the Service they were in fair proportion, and there was no reason to suppose that the Quartermasters were in a worse position than other officers. He could not admit the analogy to the special retirements given to the late Militia Adjutants. The duties of the Militia Quartermasters were being more and more transferred to the Quartermasters of the brigade depôts. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for War had carefully considered the question, but he had not felt himself justified in coming to the House for an increase of the allowance to Quartermasters.
  Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put and agreed to.

  SUPPLY—ARMY ESTIMATES.
  SUPPLY—considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, in moving for the first Vote under the Army Estimates it was usual to make a statement as full as possible as to the condition of the Army, and the proposals which the Government had to make respecting it. He hoped the Committee would do him the credit of saying that in the Estimates which he should put before them there was more plainness,

  1237
  openness, and completeness, than had appeared before. There was an index which would enable anybody to find in a moment what was there referred to, so that any hon. Member would have no difficulty in ascertaining any point which he might have to consider. He regretted very much that it should be his fate to produce before the Committee enlarged Estimates; but again he might ask the Committee to consider the course he had taken in the last two years. During that time, at least, he had not asked for Supplementary Estimates, and he had not exceeded the Estimates assigned to him. That there had been difficulties which caused him some uneasiness he admitted.
  He wished to pass over some of the subjects on which he had been addressed, not to get rid of them, but as not being directly connected with the Army Estimates. First of all, promotion and retirement. That question was being most exhaustively and thoroughly considered. That it had become important no one who looked at the position of the officers of the Army could for a moment doubt. Stagnation of promotion was growing rapidly in it—much more rapidly than was expected. At the present moment there was no doubt that great numbers of officers were holding back in order to see what the terms might be on which they might be able to retire. He considered himself bound, as he thought every Secretary of State would be by the pledge given by his Predecessor on the abolition of Purchase—that care ought to be taken that promotion should be as adequate under non-Purchase as it had been under Purchase. That pledge was practically given by Parliament as well as by the Secretary of State, because that was the foundation of the scheme—that promotion should not be suffered to lag behind, but kept up at the same rate as it was before. Therefore, in any proposal he might make for dealing with the subject when they had the Report of the Commission, the evidence, and the actuarial calculations, he should endeavour to effect that object to which his Predecessor pledged himself.
  The question of Paymasters had been hanging over, and he considered that it was wrapped up with the question of retirement. At all events, there would be great difficulty in dealing with it
  1238
  finally, unless upon the principle of coming to a decision either that they were or that they were not to assist retirement. His own impression was that they ought to assist retirement. They ought to take great care in appointing Paymasters taken from the Army that their fitness was carefully tested; they should not take them as a matter of course, but require that they should show their competency before they were admitted to the functions of the Pay-mastership.
  He would dismiss, as rapidly as possible, what he called the non-effective Votes, because really these were not very much in their power. There was one point on which the Committee would agree with him in rejoicing that it could be done—that great numbers of officers on half-pay without their own fault had been brought back to full pay. As many as 80 officers had been brought back in this way, and it was a matter of justice to them that they should again have an opportunity of serving their Queen. This had been done so cheaply that he was sure the House would not grudge the small sum of money expended to complete the changes relating to Adjutants in the Militia.
  The hon. Member for Glasgow (Mr. Anderson) the other night, in speaking of desertion, mentioned a subject which was apposite to a good deal that had passed to-night, and he should take into consideration the suggestion thrown out of marking on the arm, so that everybody should show that he had served his Queen. The honourable profession would not be disgraced in any way by that kind of treatment, and he believed that this might tend to limit the operation of military law as at present. There was another point. In the case of recruiting sergeants finding a deserter and informing against him, they got a greater reward than when they enlisted him. He was far from saying that a sergeant would enlist a man, if he knew him to be a deserter; but if he got a larger amount for detecting the deserter it would keep him on the alert, and tend to check the practice of desertion which was too prevalent at present.
  There was another question which was not included in the Estimates, but it affected the amount that was wanted, and that was the Purchase Commission.

  1239
  He was happy to say, from the information he received from the Commissioners, that they would not require so much this year as last by £172,370, and as the Exchequer receipts would also be in excess of last year, there would be a deduction of nearly £200,000 on that account, which he hoped would balance some of his smaller excesses. As he had usually mentioned the question of fortifications he might now state that, with the exception of one at Spithead, the whole of the forts to be erected under the loan would be completed by the end of 1876–7, and would have a portion of their more important armaments mounted. Last year, when a great deal was done in the way of facing the forts, £230,000 was spent, and he hoped the fortification loan would be brought to a conclusion without exceeding the original Estimates. There was a mistake in the Chaplain General's salary which he should point out. The salary had been put down at £1,000, instead of £800, to which the amount was lowered when Mr. Gleig left, he having received the higher salary under exceptional circumstances.
  He now came to the question of the Medical Department, in which since 1873 there had been a good deal of agitation as to the merits of the old regimental system and the staff arrangements, with the general and larger hospitals now in force. He thought the time had come when he ought to pronounce his opinion, and he had come to the conclusion that the idea of going back to the regimental system after what had been done was simply out of the question. It was impossible that it should be done without making re-arrangements and alterations which could never work in time of war. The system which he had approved enabled them to utilize the services of medical officers at the places where they were wanted; whereas under the regimental system they were bound to have medical men in particular positions where they might not be wanted. But by the control which the Head of the Department had in bringing those men to places where they were particularly wanted he was able to have a much larger consulting staff, to select the best operators for one class of cases and the best physicians for another; while he had in those large hospitals means and appliances in abundance which it would
  1240
  be impossible, without enormous expenditure, to have in the smaller hospitals. He believed that the effect of all these advantages would be that the health and efficiency of the soldier would be improved. The Staff system also had the advantages of bringing under the eye of the Chief of the Department everyone qualified to rise; and under the system which he had to propose the principle of selection was one which would conduce to making the higher ranks of the Medical Department more efficient—though he was far from saying they were not efficient now—and of enabling promotion to go on more rapidly and more in accordance with the deserts of the men; and that it would enable them to pass by those who did not wish to go forward, while others would have the opportunity afforded them of obtaining that to which they would be entitled if they continued to serve—namely, a pension. There were two points that were brought prominently before him with respect to the Medical Department—first, the want of candidates to enter the service; and, secondly, the want of promotion for those who were in it. These points he hoped to meet by the scheme he was about to lay before the House. He approved, then, of the general hospital system, and he ventured, with great distinctness and plainness, to say that he was not prepared any longer to listen to complaints on that subject. He had come to a conclusion upon the subject, and it was a conclusion on which he meant firmly to act. His new scheme was this. He proposed most liberal terms. The candidates who would have to undergo a severer examination would, on entering the service, have £250 a-year from the beginning, and at the end of 10 years they would be presented with £1,000 on leaving, and the heads of the Medical Department would have the power of selecting from among them such a number as would be sufficient to fill the vacancies in the higher ranks and to keep up the flow of promotion. That might be regarded as being a very dear system; but he believed it would ultimately be found to be a cheap one. In the first place, much less would come upon the non-effective Vote; and, in the second place, the localization or mobilization scheme would be assisted by the fact that there would be numbers of

  1241
  medical men who would be able to act upon an emergency, and who, although, because of being married or from other causes, they might desire to retire at the end of 10 years, yet would continue to retain their military predilections, and would not regret to find themselves again among their old comrades. Then, the sum of £1,000, though not a very considerable amount, was one which might enable a man to purchase a practice, while it would be known throughout the country that the service was a good service, that the pay was fair, and that it opened to those who were clever and skilful in their profession the prospect of promotion by selection. But, in order to carry out the scheme fully he must go a step further, and he proposed that those who went on after the 10 years, for the first two years should have their pay increased and should have 17 s. 6d. a-day; that at the expiration of 12 years they should become surgeon majors with £1 a-day; and that five years after that they should have £1 6s. a-day. By diminishing the supply below, too many would not be brought into the upper ranks. The bottle was a good deal larger than the neck, and as they could not force all the contents into the neck at once, they must draw some off below, in order to get a fair proportion above. In that way the most expensive retirements would be diminished. He should not on the present occasion enter into details which would appear in the Warrant in due course; but he might mention that if a man during his 10 years of service should, from sickness or otherwise, require a provision for retirement at certain periods, he would receive a portion of the £1,000, so that he would not go away as a pauper, but as a man who had done something for his country. The medical officers then would have £250 a-year for 10 years, £320 for two years after that, beyond that time they would have £365, and after five years more £1 5s. a day, or £456 a-year. A good prospect would, therefore, he thought, be held out to them. Those who were going on would be placed still more advantageously than those who left, for they would attain rank, more money, a pension, and what men liked in that profession as all others—distinction, the distinction of selection and due reward for the services they
  1242
  rendered to the country. He would add to that the £40 a-year they received for quarters and the £18 for servants. Think what it was for a young man to secure those prospects, and what inducements would be held out to the medical schools to send some of their best young men to us. That had not been the case, for they had 45 vacancies the other day, and only 12 candidates, some of whom had been rejected on former occasions. In some cases, he was sorry to say, they had been driven to accept medical men about whom he might have doubts. At all events, he did not think the Army ought to be obliged to take a low class of medical men in any respect. It ought to get its pick, because they had very delicate and difficult services to render, and very great dangers to encounter; though it should be remembered, to the credit of medical men, how large was their loss in proportion to that of the combatant officers. He proposed, he might add, that Surgeons General and the Deputy Surgeons General should retire at the age of 60 instead of 65, and that their retirement should be compulsory, without any exception, for the making of exceptions only tended to all sorts of inconveniences. Great pressure was sometimes put on the Department to retain men under special circumstances; but it was better that they should receive just compensation for the net loss they might sustain, as would be granted in the present instance on account of the substitution of the age of 60 for 65. He hoped the Committee would see that the proposal which he had sketched was a fair one. The non-effective Vote would, of course, be now increased by the fact that a certain number of men would have to retire at the age of 60, and it would go up for a certain number of years, but it would then begin to diminish again. Up to 1880 it would, he thought, practically remain at about the same point, £90,000 or £91,000; but that was the whole Vote, and was not all caused by these changes. The effective Vote, which was about £200,000 this year, would vary also; but if the system of which he spoke went on it would in 1912 be £150,000 instead of £200,000. He could not, he might add, hope to please everybody; he had long ago given up the idea. As for pleasing all the members of the medical profes-

  1243
  sion, that was also a thing he was afraid he could not accomplish. He had read a great many pamphlets on the subject, and he had been very slow in arriving at a conclusion with regard to it; but every sort of scheme had been tested by calculations, and he must say that that which he had laid before the Committee seemed to him to be the most effective, and likely to be the most beneficial to the soldier. By its means educated, earnest, and able men would, he believed, be induced to enter the Army, some of whom afterwards the heads of Departments might feel justified in promoting to very difficult situations.
  He would now pass from the Medical Department to the Auxiliary Services. With respect to the Yeomanry, he had last year the services of a Committee, to which the country was greatly indebted, for they had investigated the questions relating to the Force at much inconvenience to themselves. That Committee had come to conclusions on which the Department had acted. That was to say, they had determined to treat the Yeomanry as Light Cavalry. The appendage of guns was one that could not be continued with advantage to themselves; and, therefore, with great regret, and with due acknowledgment to those who had maintained and served in those branches of the Yeomanry Corps, they had, for the advantage of the Service generally, got rid of the cars used by the Wiltshire Yeomanry, the Artillery of the Buckinghamshire and Essex, and the dismounted men of Northumberland. Again, they had improved the position of the Adjutants in pay and allowances. So, also, with the permanent Staff. He was aware that the Yeomanry had been made the subject of a good deal of remark; but on consulting military men they found that in the event of that necessity which they all hoped would never arise, of meeting an attack upon this country, the Yeomanry would be in many places of the greatest advantage, from their knowledge of the country and the skill with which the greater number of them could ride. This was not a very easy country to ride over, and it was not a bad thing to have people who, wherever they put them, would be able to ride well.
  He must next refer to the Volunteers. To the estimate for that force was added
  1244
  £20,000; but let the Committee be satisfied, for it was entirely in consequence of increased efficiency. He had received very good reports of the Volunteers; but he would not enter into details until the Vote itself was under discussion. He would then be able to show that they had improved greatly in many respects. They had taken very much to camping out and got more drill in the course of a week than they used to do in months, because they were under good Staff officers, were intelligent men, and picked up a knowledge of drill a great deal faster than people thought. In 1873 there were 58 camps; in 1874, 69; and in 1875, 77 camps; and there was a steady increase in the number camping out from 19,000 in the first of those years, to 27,000 in the second, and 31,000 in the last. The progress made in their training would, he hoped, be satisfactory to the country. Again, it was proposed to put the Adjutants on a footing which he trusted would be satisfactory to them. The old Adjutants would be allowed to continue to serve on the old terms, but newly-appointed Adjutants would be treated in the way proposed. The Adjutants of Volunteers would henceforth he relieved from the duty of recruiting, for which, in fact, they had little time.
  Now he came to another part of the Army which might be said to be both Auxiliary and Regular—he meant the Reserves. The Reserves, he might remark in passing, were not his Reserves, but had been instituted by others—first by General Peel and then by his noble Friend who was at the head of the War Department in the last Administration (Viscount Cardwell). Everybody admitted that if Reserves could be got they could not have more efficient soldiers. The men would have served six years in the Army, and consequently would, on joining the Reserve, be from 24 to 26 years of age. If they could have them available and to be depended upon, no one could say that they were not most efficient men. Everybody felt, however, that the appearing for pay, and that in advance, was not the sort of appearance which the Reserves ought to put in. Everybody also felt that there were many difficulties in calling out men who were in business and different occupations for any long period of time. Everybody would likewise, he thought,

  1245
  agree that when the men were called out they ought to come, and that if they did not come they ought to he treated as deserters. He wanted to impress on the minds of hon. Members that the Reserve men ought to be treated not as civilians playing at soldiers, but as soldiers on furlough, and that being soldiers on furlough they ought to answer to the call, whenever it was made. He admitted that the pay they received was not very large. He admitted, too, that perhaps there were not all the inducements which might be held out to them in comparison with other services. Therefore, he proposed to increase their pay, and, at the same time, to increase the stringency of the conditions. If any of the men did not like to take the additional pay under the new terms, he should not compel them to do so, for he thought it especially desirable to keep faith with soldiers. He proposed that in future the men, instead of being paid in advance, should be paid in arrear. At present they got £1 to provide themselves with necessaries, and they were then paid a quarter in advance; after which we lost sight of them, and they might be anywhere at the end of the quarter, and might not have done a day's work for the money. He proposed that they should be paid every two months, and that they should appear at the end of each year to be medically examined, in order that we might not keep men who were not fit to remain in the service. "When the men came up at the end of each year they would receive an additional 2d. a-day or about £3, from which sum, however, he proposed to deduct the £ I now allowed for necessaries, because that £1 was practically not expended in necessaries. He proposed instead that when the men were called out for active service they should have a free kit. In the autumn he hoped they would answer to the call; but they would be sent back to their business as soon as possible. He wanted to see them; and when an Army Corps was mobilized this year, it was intended to call out also a certain number of the Army Reserve. He hoped that they would appear in their places; and he would take care that no unreasonable service was put upon them, and that they should get back as soon as possible to their avocations. The men must keep the War Office informed of their places
  1246
  of residence, and when they came to the mobilization they must bring with them what was necessary—namely, shoes, two shirts, and two pairs of stockings. There was an increase in the clothing Vote, and part of that was to be attributed to the necessity of clothing those men when they came up, but the sum was not a large one. This year the additional expense of the Reserve would be practically nothing; but when all the 84,000 were called out they would cost £255,000, and if available they would be very cheap at the price.
  Now he would pass to the Militia. Although disparaging remarks were sometimes made on that Force, even the hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. J. Holms) must admit that the Militia, considering the amount of drill it received, presented a very creditable appearance. The recruits had three months' drill and one month's training. He should like to add to what he said the other night the authority of two very distinguished officers. General Knollys, who had had a great deal to do with the Militia during the Crimean War and afterwards, had written to him that he was ready to bear testimony to the fullest extent as to the excellence of those troops, and the rapidity with with which they could be brought to efficiency. Again, Sir Thomas Steele, the General Officer in command at Aldershot, stated that many of the Militia regiments at Aldershot would, with very little additional training, be able to take their place by the side of the Regulars, and he added that in general appearance, drill, and discipline they were highly satisfactory. A good many questions had come before him as to the billeting and encamping of the Militia. The proposals of his noble Friend who preceded him in office was that training barracks should be erected in certain places for the Militia. He was sorry that more of these barracks had not yet been provided; but the truth was that great difficulties had arisen in coming to terms about land. Still, the erection of barracks was being pressed on, and he hoped that in many instances there would be training barracks to which the Militia could be sent instead of being exposed unnecessarily to camp life. As for billeting, he was most anxious to get rid of it wherever he could. In connection with the Militia, he might mention that its

  1247
  Medical Department had been transferred to the Medical Vote. He should have a few words to say later on respecting the mobilization; but he desired now to remark that his proposal would necessarily involve some Militia regiments being brought to the head-quarters named for them. This, he believed, they would readily agree to, A great many questions were daily arising about the Militia, and he had felt a great inclination to do in regard to them what he had done with the Yeomanry last year—namely, to get a certain number of Militia officers to confer with those who were qualified at the War Office, in order to consider such questions as recruiting, re-enrolling, quarter-masters, and a variety of other subjects constantly pressed upon him. Thus the Committee might next year have before them information concerning the Militia that would to some extent perhaps obviate the difficulty which might exist at present of the Militia recruiting interfering with the Army recruiting. Nothing would give him greater pleasure than to have a training in the Militia before a recruit was taken for the Army; but this he thought was almost impossible, and, after all, he believed that they now got from the Militia those men who were inclined to join the Army. However, it was a question he would re-consider hereafter. Coming to the expenditure upon Brigade depôts and other works for the localization of the Forces, he might state that already as much as £2,600,000 out of the loan of £3,500,000 was actually pledged, and that the other £1,000,000 would be spent.
  With regard to tactical stations, it had been found almost impossible to establish a very large one, with all the necessary conditions, in the North of England. There would, however, be stores and barracks at York; and one advantage in this location was that it was acceptable to the people of the City, and they had no wish to get rid of it. Knavesmire would, he hoped, afford great facilities; and arrangements had been almost made with the lord of the manor for the purchase of Strensal Common, 1,150 acres in extent, and situated four miles from York, and he understood that they would find the railway companies and other people very accommodating. Having failed in getting
  1248
  a tactical station on a large scale, with 4,000 or 5,000 acres, in the North of England, he turned his attention to Aldershot, and he hoped that negotiations would be concluded which would enable the War Office to acquire 6,600 acres for the use of the troops there. At present the difficulties of moving the troops there were great, and were daily increasing from the purchases of land and the inclosures that were being made in the neighbourhood. It had been necessary, in order to obviate these difficulties, to bring in Bills, not for the purposes of the Autumn Manœuvres, but even of the ordinary summer drills. The additional acreage would give great facilities in manœuvring the troops. He mentioned this to the House, although, under the Act, he could divert the money sanctioned for the purpose of the station in the North to the acquiring of additional land at Aldershot, with nothing more than the assent of the Treasury, and he hoped that this assent would be given. The Votes for Provisions and Forage were high. Forage was not quite as high as it was last year, but it had made a frightful difference in the Estimates both last year and this. The increased cost of forage this year would be £37,000. With respect to clothing, it was absolutely necessary that they should have a certain amount of reserve, and it was for that reason that that item was increased. He did not think they should go on in a hand-to-mouth system with respect to clothing, which they might suddenly want to increase without the power of doing so; but it would be seen from the amount stated that they did not want to have a very extravagant amount of reserve. Stores were, no doubt, very high; but it must be remembered that there was a repayment of £25,000 less this year. The Admiralty had an excess of £77,000 over last year, and it took of this Vote altogether £309,000. He now came to another increase which arose from peculiar circumstances. The War Office were led to believe that India would last year require a much larger number of Martini-Henrys than she actually needed. The consequence was that what she was intended to take we should have to pay for from Imperial funds, and that amounted to £80,000. Another sum of £45,000 was passed over from last year to this, and was not a real increase,

  1249
  Altogether there was a sum of £243,000 mainly due to exceptional causes.
  As to works, he was anxious to keep the charge as low as possible, and accordingly had restricted them to sanitary requirements, such as married soldiers' quarters. An hon. Member had called his attention to cases of overcrowding. He was glad that he had done so, and he intended to stop it. But with respect to the general subject of married soldiers' quarters, they were getting rapidly an Army of short service, and in time they would have a great number of soldiers, who had no claim to marry during the period they were in the Army. In ordinary life young men of that age were seldom very prudent if they married. He did not condemn them, because he was afraid it he did he should be condemning himself; but, though he did not want to lay down a rule that people should not marry unless they could fulfil certain conditions to the satisfaction of the Government, still they must remember that those men were only to serve six years, that they would leave you at 25 or 26 years of age, and that, therefore, you could not be called upon to provide a large amount of married soldiers' quarters. The provision for married soldiers under the long-service system was for 7 per cent; but under the new system they would not have the same number of soldiers who might be considered of a marriageable age, and who, therefore, would be entitled to be married. He was sorry to put the least check on anything that might tend to morality or to the stability of soldiers as reliable men; but he suggested whether the country ought to be called upon, under the short-service system, to build a large additional number of barracks for men who had not such special claims in respect of marriage as they might have under a system of long service. "We should take care that our soldiers were well provided with quarters; but he trusted that might be done by diminishing the number we required and extending the area for married soldiers. There was one small item in connection with building which it had appeared to him was worth incurring for the sake of doing a kindly act to one of our colonies. The noble Lord the Governor General of Canada (Lord Dufferin), to whom that result was chiefly owing,
  1250
  wrote him a letter stating that Quebec was to retain its ancient fortifications, which were a great ornament to the city, but that it would be necessary to make several gates in the walls in order that access might be had to the streets. Lord Dufferin thought that he (Mr. Hardy), on the part of the British Army, might present the city with one of those gates, and the noble Lord proposed with great good taste and feeling, and with a desire to draw together the bonds of the English and French settlers, that it should be called the Wolfe-Montcalm Gate, after those two illustrious men who, though they were opposed in arms, were equally celebrated for the gallantry of their conduct, for their high and noble dispositions, and for the generosity they always displayed to their soldiers and to each other. It struck him that the Committee would not be disinclined to sanction this expenditure. It would amount to only £200, and would be most grateful, he believed, to the French Canadians, as well as to the descendants of those who had gone out from among ourselves.
  He came now to the great question how to keep up our Regular Army. He could not shut his eyes to the position in which he should have stood next year if nothing had been done now, and thought it would be imprudent to delay till then any proposal for encouraging recruiting, but that any experiment should be tried in the year before the great pressure came. For this reason he proposed certain changes, which he hoped would tend to bring additional men, and, to some extent, superior men. On a question of pay, however—Vestigia nulla retrorsum. If the pay were once given, they could never recall it. They could not break faith with the men once they had given it. Many would say that he had dealt with them in a rather niggardly way; but he had acted to the best of his judgment and upon the best advice he could take. He had had advice from soldiers and from civilians well acquainted with the Army, and their opinion was that the propositions he was about to make would supply the deficiencies which they might expect in future years. The hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Captain Nolan) had called attention to the youth and physical qualifications of the recruits who were received at the present time, and he said, with

  1251
  perfect justice, that to a certain extent the War Department were able to obtain better information than the House. The Recruiting Return which the Inspector General had placed on the Table of the House was as much in the possession of the Committee as in his own; but, at the same time, he had, in consequence of communications with the Inspector General, endeavoured to obtain, as far as possible, accurate information to give to the Committee with respect to the recruiting of last year, and in a little more detail than the House could have had it otherwise. In the countries to which reference had been made—France, Germany, Italy, and Russia—the system of police inspection enabled them to know every man's age, and, with conscription, they could fix the age at which they wanted recruits, and at once lay their hands on the men they wanted. It had been shown by discussions in the House, and he believed it would be shown by discussion in Committee also, that this country was not prepared for conscription; and therefore he had to deal with this question as one that concerned a Volunteer Army. Though he might wish in some instances—he would not say in all—to get men of 20 years of age, he was not dissatisfied to take them at from 18 to 19; and of this he was quite sure, from what he had heard from his gallant friend at the head of the Recruiting Department and from Cavalry officers, that those officers did not wish to see their recruits so old as 20, as they believed they could teach riding better when the men were younger. He had heard himself an officer say to a young man—"You are over 20; it will not be easy to teach you how to ride." He believed the Cavalry officers were satisfied with younger men, because they could teach them more easily to ride than if they had stiffened more into form, as they would when they had reached the age of 20. When the recruits of 18 or 19 arrived at 20 they were, as regarded their physical condition, much superior to the men that were picked up at the latter age, for they had had a training specially fitting them for their work. They were physically developed—they were trained soldiers; whereas the man you got at 20 must have his year's or half-year's training before he was fit—he would not say physically—but in all respects to do duty as a soldier. He did
  1252
  not agree with his friend Sir Lintorn Simmons that no one was fit to fight until he was 21. He was strongly of a contrary opinion. He had known distinguished officers who had led young men into action with satisfaction to themselves, and he had heard Sir Garnet Wolseley say—"Give me young men; I like to lead them." And why? Because they would yield to discipline; they would be more amenable to drill, and would be more readily trained to be soldiers than older men. If you caught them young they might have some difficulty at first in carrying their knapsacks; but the time would speedily come when they would be disciplined men and physically fit to take the field. The Committee perhaps thought that we were below all other nations in the conditions in which we got recruits. But what were the facts? And first as to height. The minimum size of recruits in Austria was 5 feet 11–5 inches; while we doubted about taking an officer, who might perhaps be mounted on horseback, at 5 feet 2 inches. In France the minimum was 5 feet 2¼ inches; in Germany, 5 feet 1¾ inches; in Italy, 5 feet 1½ inches; and in Russia, which approached nearest our own standard, it was 5 feet 4¾ inches, and rather more for the Sappers. It was quite true that in Austria, France, Italy, and Russia the men must be 20 years of age at the period of the conscription. In Germany they must have completed 19, so that there in age they were nearer to ourselves than in other countries. He would like, if he did not weary the Committee, to give them some idea of what he had gathered on this point from the Returns furnished by the Colonels of different regiments. Let not hon. Members turn away and say—"Oh, they only know what the recruits tell them." That was all very well, but if we said—" Don't take recruits under 20," we should have just the same difficulty; the recruit when asked his age would say he was older than he really was. But hon. Members could make all the allowances they thought necessary on this point. Well, in heavy Cavalry the average age of the recruits of 1875 was 20 years 7½ months; height, 5 feet 9 1–20 inches; width round the chest, 35 19–20 inches. We need not be ashamed of such men. For the medium Cavalry, the average age was 20 years and 9–10ths of a month; average height, 5 feet 8 1–12 inches; measurement round the chest,

  1253
  35 7–30 inches. For the light Cavalry the average age was 19 years 7 2–7 months; height, 5 feet 6 4–5 inches; round the chest, 34½ inches. Such was the class of our recruits belonging to the Cavalry. He told the House last year his experience at Aldershot, and Cavalry officers, in answer to his inquiries, had informed him that they had no reason to be dissatisfied with their recruits, and he hoped the Committee would not be dissatisfied either. He came now to the Artillery, and he wished they had more of them; because it was in that branch of the Service that the greatest difficulty of getting men was experienced, and it was in that branch that the greatest number of desertions occurred. The hon. and gallant Member for Galway (Captain Nolan), who was a distinguished member of that Force, would feel with him the great importance of restoring that most important arm to a better condition. But when the hon. and gallant Gentleman complained that we did not propose to give additional ready-money pay to the Artillery as well as the Guards, he might remind him that the Artillery had a higher rate of pay than the ordinary regiments of the Army. [Captain NOLAN said, he had not urged that point.] Then he must have mistaken the hon. and gallant Gentleman. It might become necessary to give them higher pay in future, but he hoped not. No doubt the desertions from the Artillery were very great. The work was, however, very heavy, and it required very large and strong men, and they could not expect to get men of that class without paying for them. Well, the average age of the recruits for the Royal Artillery was—gunners, 20 years 9 months; drivers, 20 years 6 months; the average height—gunners, 5 feet 8½ inches; drivers, 5 feet 5 inches. The average chest measurement was 35⅝ inches and 35¾ inches respectively. Now, according to his view, these were recruits of which the country need not be ashamed. For the Royal Engineers the average age of recruits was—Sappers, 21 years 2 months; height, 5 feet 7 inches; chest measurement, 34¾inches. The average age for drivers was 19 years 7½ months, height 5 feet 4½ inches, round the chest 35⅛ inches. For the Foot Guards the average age of recruits was 20 years 3½ months, average height 5 feet 9 1–5 inches, round the
  1254
  chest 35⅝ inches. For the Infantry of the Line the average age was 20 years, height 5 feet 6⅛ inches, round the chest 34½ inches. For the Rifles (60th Regiment and Rifle Brigade), who were generally smaller men, the average age was 19 years 10 months, height 5 feet 5 1–5 inches, round the chest 35 7–25 inches. These were the average ages, heights, and chest measurements of the recruits we got last year. He knew that averages were rather uncertain, and he therefore felt it right to ask for the two extremes, as he did not wish to delude the Committee. Excluding the boys he found that there were 213 aged from 17 to 18, 4,787 from 18 to 19, and from 19 to 20, 3,967. The oldest among last year's recruits was 25 years of age; but, of course, there were very few of such men, and there were 135 up to the age of 24. Therefore he might expect that the recruits of 1875 would be efficient men, and such as they should not be ashamed to see in the ranks.
  Having said so much on that subject, he would now state that he proposed to add somewhat to the first 18 regiments for service abroad, and he did so on many grounds. Everybody was aware from the newspapers of the difficulty which we experienced—and it was a real one—when any regiment was going out to the Colonies or to India, to get it up to the required, strength in time. We necessarily had a number of recruits not in a condition to go abroad. What was the consequence. They had to draw on other regiments, either by calling for volunteers or upon the linked battalions. There was nothing so disheartening to commanding officers as to see men filched away from one regiment to supply other regiments when they prided themselves on the efficiency of their own. It had happened that a regiment had gone to India in the Mutiny, having been denuded of its best men by volunteers to other corps, and they found themselves fighting beside another regiment in the highest possible condition, filled with their own men who had volunteered, while they themselves were in an almost decrepit state. It was galling to the officers, and still more so to the men, for it discredited their regiment when it would really have been in the highest state of efficiency had it not been deprived of men to fill up the ranks of other regiments. It was, therefore, thought desirable that

  1255
  there should be a long period of recruiting—namely, from the time that regiments got on the roster for Indian or Colonial service—and in this way to meet the difficulty to which he had referred. He did not propose to go into the market as if he wanted 3,000 men at once, but to get them gradually. Nothing could be more objectionable than raising a large additional number of men for the Army in undue haste; and, in fact, the sudden increase in our military force a few years since by 20,000 men had done an injury from which it bad not yet recovered. He could assure the House, therefore, that if they granted him the increase in the number of men he asked for the number should be increased gradually and as opportunity offered. It was true we were not at war. He hoped with all his heart war might never happen while he held that office, or in the time of his Successor. He believed there never was a more peaceful War Minister than the one who now held the Seals of office. He had no desire for war; but he had a desire that the machine entrusted to him should be in as efficient a condition as possible; and he knew if we were called upon, not to engage in a large war, but in a small one, it would be discreditable if we were not found thoroughly prepared. He asked whether it was a creditable thing to this country that when we went to war with Ashantee, we should have had to resort to the practice of drawing men from one battalion to fill up the ranks of another. Thus, when we were sending out the 42nd Regiment we had to draw men from the ranks of the 79th to raise the former to fighting strength. It was a strong proof of the love the men entertained for their own regiments that, on their return from Ashantee the men who had been so transferred from the 79th to the 42nd were anxious to resign all the special distinction they would have enjoyed by remaining in the latter in order to get back to their old regiment, and he thought it was only a fair reward to those excellent men to gratify their wish in the matter. That circumstance showed how very distasteful it was to the men to be drawn away from their own regiments to serve in others. It was with the wish to avoid those unpleasant contingencies that he desired to raise a certain number of regiments up to a more full complement. It must also be re-
  1256
  membered that we were under numerous Treaty engagements and other obligations that might render it desirable to have a small force in readiness to act without delay, and if we had one or two well equipped Army Corps of full strength in addition to the three regiments of the Guards, we should have an available force of something between 30,000 and 50,000 men. The maintenance of such a force could not be regarded in the light of a threat held out towards any other Power; and, indeed, it was simply carrying out a part of the original plan contemplated by the noble Lord who preceded him in office, when he effected the changes he had done in our Army. His proposal then, as appeared from the Report of the Localization Committee, was that the first 18 regiments on the roster for foreign service should be raised to the strength of 820 men each. At present we had only four regiments of that strength. It had been proposed then also that the next 18 regiments should consist of 700 men; but, in fact, we had no regiment at all of that strength, a few of them numbering 600, and the rest 520. He was not going so far as was originally projected by his noble Friend; but he was taking only those first 18 regiments, because with the Guards we should have a very respectable Army Corps with full equipment and ready for foreign service. Then came the question, how were we to get the men? There were two inducements that could be held out to men to enlist in the Army. The first was that which had been pressed upon his attention ever since he had held office by the hon. and gallant Member for Galway, and which, had it not been for circumstances over which he had no control, he would have held out last year—namely, that of putting the non-commissioned officers in a better position, so as to induce them to remain in the force, and so as to offer greater prizes to well-conducted men in the ranks. The second inducement was to increase the pay of the men themselves. I Nothing had done the Army greater injury than one fact to which he would direct attention—namely, that those who might have been very well off, or fairly off, and who having squandered what they had were reduced to beggary, were pointed out as men neglected by their country, and held out to young men as

  1257
  having been left in a miserable condition after serving in the Army. There were men who left the Army who had had but a small pay, and although he would not go so far as to say that they could not save, still they could not save a great deal, but might put something by day by day, if they chose to do so. There were military savings banks in which they could place their money; but possibly—that was a subject worth consideration—it would be for the benefit, both of the Army and of the country, if those savings banks were consolidated with the Post Office Savings Banks. If that were done, he believed it would give a greater feeling of security, and the soldiers would feel that they were acting together with the whole country when going out of the Army if they could, as quasi civilians, draw their money from the Post Office Savings Bank like other people. There might, however, be difficulties in such a change which fuller information might disclose. He intended to give the men 2d. a-day deferred pay, which would amount to something like £3 a-year, so that at the end of their six years of service they would on leaving the Army be entitled to the sum of £18, which would enable them to obtain a start in life. He proposed that the men should not be paid the whole of that sum upon their discharge, because it was a great evil that the moment men were discharged there were persons who fixed upon them as long as they had anything left, and consequently they returned home to their relations with ruined health and in a penniless condition. He therefore intended that the amount of the deferred pay should be divided into two or three sums, which should be paid through the Post Office Savings Banks, at the places where the men intended to reside—the men of course continuing in the Reserve and still receiving the pay of 2d. a-day. It was a well-known fact that recruiting for the Royal Marines had been easier than for any other branch of the Service; and that was because, as the men had no opportunity of spending their money when on board ship, they frequently took home with them on their discharge comparatively large sums which they had saved during their term of service, and this circumstance induced young men to join a branch of the Service in which so much money was to be gained.
  1258
  By the course he proposed to adopt our soldiers would return to their villages with a whole year's pay in their pockets, and this would, he hoped, be the means of inducing others to enlist. Then he thought we treated them rather hardly in another way. When a soldier had his full pay formerly he, had to find everything; but since we I began to furnish him with rations, in, stead of giving him Is. 6d. a-day on furlough, which included the cost of the rations, we gave him only Is. 2d. But as it was of benefit to them and to the Army that they should have those little holidays, we proposed to add to their pay 4d. more. When, therefore, they I went on furlough they were to have 1s. 6d. instead of 1s. 2d. The item, which this addition represented, was not large; but it was given for the welfare of the soldiers, and put them on the same footing when they were in the Service and when they were at home. Those were the experiments which he proposed to make upon the Army generally.
  Then he came to the question of the Guards. He quite admitted that when the pay of the whole Army was raised to 1s. a-day the Guards actually lost nothing, but relatively they were worse off than the Line by 1d. a-day, which they had always received above the ordinary pay of the rest of the Army. The reasons for the Guards receiving superior pay was obvious—thus, they were men of greater stature than the ordinary soldier, and therefore more difficult to get; their clothing was more expensive, and their continual residence in London entailed additional expenses upon them. Under these circumstances, he proposed to increase their pay by 1d. a-day, so as to restore them in this respect to the position, relatively to the rest of the Army, they had formerly occupied. The Guards were 400 or 500 short of their complement; and therefore it was absolutely necessary to take some steps of this kind to induce men to enlist in these regiments, because, as they were always the first on the list for foreign service, it would be unreasonable not to keep them up to their full establishment strength. This increase in the pay of the Guards would cost £8,000 a-year. They would also have the deferred pay; and he hoped that, as the soldiers of our Army saw funds accu-

  1259
  mulating for them at the rate of £3 per year per man, they would hesitate before they deserted from the Service. For it must be borne in mind that desertion would result in the absolute forfeiture of every penny of deferred pay. It was hoped that by this means considerable loss would be avoided. When a soldier deserted he frequently took his kit and other property with him; and, even if he did not go this length, there was the cost of providing a successor to him, and much inconvenience arising therefrom. This deferred pay, then, would be a safeguard against evil, and would at the same time act as an encouragement to the soldiers. If hon. Members would look at the desertion Returns for the past year they would find that the total number was less by 1,000 than last year. There was, however, too large a number, and it included several cases of what might be called skilled desertions—a class of offence which must be put a stop to by some means. Those who might be most properly termed deserters were those who ran away in the second or third year of their service, and this class of offence would most probably be checked by the knowledge in the minds of the men that in proportion to the length of their service was the amount of their deferred pay accumulating, and therefore the greater their loss as the penalty of desertion. No doubt this system would cost money; but against that must be placed the fact that the expense of filling the places of deserters would not be incurred, and the morality of the Army would be improved. The cost of deferred pay in the present Estimates would be very small—not more than £6,000. In the case of the Guards the amount of the additional 1d. would be £8,000. The Imperial charge next year would be about £31,000, the year after £65,000, and when the normal condition of things arrived, the amount would be £329,000; and he therefore quite admitted it was a question which the House had a right to weigh, because it was a growing payment, although he believed it would be a cheap payment if it secured the object he had in view. He further assumed that it would in the end diminish to a certain extent the pension list, because it would diminish the number going out on pensions.
  1260
  The next proposal he had to make was one to increase the pay of non-commissioned officers, and this would involve an extra expenditure of about £104,000; and a sum of £39,000 would fall upon the Indian Government. He proposed that sergeant majors should receive 6d. additional pay; that sergeants should receive 2d. additional, and after two years' service in the ranks, 4d. That was to say, their present pay being 1s. 11 d., with the addition of 2d. it would be 2s. 1d., and after two years' service it would be 2s. 3d. Corporals were to receive an additional 1d. a day. They were allowed to keep their good conduct pay, which the sergeants were not. From the increased pay of 1s. 1d. or 1s. 5d. a-day they would be advanced, after two years' service, to 1s. 5d. or 1s. 6d. a-day. Another proposition was with regard to lance corporals and lance sergeants. At present, a private who was thought well of by his officers was made a lance corporal, if he chose to be one; but he got nothing for it, though he had the invidious duty of keeping up discipline among his own late comrades. He trusted, therefore, it would be considered a reasonable request that he should receive payment for those services. He proposed, therefore, to increase the pay of these officers to the present pay of their substantive rank, so that lance sergeants of Infantry would receive 1s. 11 d. and lance corporals 1s. 3d. per day. This would offer an inducement to smart soldiers to accept positions which at present they were often very unwilling to fill. Holding, as he did, that the stability of the Army depended very much upon its non-commissioned officers, he was most anxious that they should be fairly treated and induced, if possible, to remain in the service of their country. He proposed further to improve the position of the Staff sergeants, who were the picked men of their rank in the Army. Under existing arrangements the allowance made to these men for lodgings was altogether inadequate; and he should therefore ask the Committee to consent to a Vote which would raise the allowance of Staff sergeants in the first class from 8s. 6d. to 12 s. 3d., and in the second class from 4s. 3d. to 7s. per week for lodging money. About £1,500 would cover this payment, and

  1261
  he believed it would give the greatest satisfaction to a most estimable body of men.
  There had been a good deal of talk now and again of our Volunteer Force being organized "not for defiance, but for defence," and he could assure the House that the mobilization scheme had been entered upon strictly with a view to the defence of the country. It had been prepared with the view, if ever the necessity should arise from a hostile invasion, that there should be no confusion and no difficulty; that every man, whether in the Regular Army or in the Auxiliary Forces, should know the headquarters to which he must repair; that not a moment should be lost in finding out what he had to do, and that he should at all times have be fore him clearly laid down where he was to go. He could assure the House that no labour or pains had been spared in making those arrangements. Every time-table had been arranged and every route prepared by which the men could be brought to their proper head-quarters in case of necessity without delay. The hon. Member for Hackney (Mr. J. Holms) had said that it was a scheme not worthy of a schoolboy; but whether that were so or not he (Mr. Hardy) at least could not help seeing the labour, the toil, and the intelligence devoted to it by those who had worked out its details. He did not suppose they were so proud of their work as to think it incapable in every particular of amendment; but no one could deny that great care and enormous diligence had been exercised in its preparation. He proposed to call out two of those Army Corps (at some period which, of course, he could not indicate), and bring every man in them to the head-quarters assigned to him, so that they might see what appearance they would present under such circumstances, and not with a desire or with a view to putting their forces on a war footing. The hon. Member for Hackney, in two speeches which he lately made, accused him of that intention, and he said in one that they must increase their Militia to 250,000 men, and in his last speech—at Manchester—he gave somewhat different figures, and said 221,640 men. Neither of those figures was correct. The hon. Member in his hurry had evidently made the mistake of reckoning up each Army Corps as if it were com-
  1262
  posed only of Infantry. He forgot, too, that Militia regiments could not be increased, except within certain boundaries and within the limitations of the law. Those 104 Militia battalions and 64 Regular battalions made up 168, just the number for making eight Army Corps; but they had no idea of filling those Corps up to what might be considered technically their full number. That was never intended. What they wanted was a system on which all this work might be based; and without any very extraordinary expenditure they would create cadres which might afterwards, if requisite, be filled up. It was not intended to use more than the number taken in the Votes of last year—namely, about 134,000 Militia—and they believed that with that force they could do all that they expected to do with' all those Army Corps. One word as to the long distances which it was said some of the men would have to come. That was an arrangement that might be altered again and again. The hon. Member spoke of the hardship that would result from bringing men from Scotland and other remote localities. The regiments themselves took a different view from that taken by the hon. Member, and would think themselves ill-used if they were left out. In fact, one colonel wrote to complain that his regiment was not brought down into the South of England, where the fighting would be sure to take place. The best military authorities were all of opinion that if an invasion took place it would be between the Wash and Plymouth. He did not say that there might not be a diversion in the Highlands; but if there were he should take care that action should be based upon that fact; and, further, that the regiments of which the Scotch were so justly proud should be sent without delay to the Highlands, where it could not be doubted they would fight like true Britons in defence of the mountainous and wooded country which they loved so well. But, to return. They had had to deal with Regulars, Militia, Volunteers, Yeomanry, Pensioners, and Reserves, and had found places for them all. The Volunteers were selected for coast and garrison duty, and had been so treated out of no disrespect to them or distrust in their zeal. With a view, however, not to press too hardly on them, one-fourth only would be taken in to service at a time, and three-fourths would

  1263
  remain at home. He wished to add that there were some Volunteer Artillery and Engineer corps which they might not be at all ashamed to place in charge of guns. His gallant friend, Mr. Darby, deserved the greatest credit for the organization of his Corps, and it was known that the feats performed by the Sussex Volunteer Artillery had rivalled the performance of the Regular Artillery. They had tried to increase the number of such corps, and had found regiments ready to change their condition and become Artillery and Engineers, and thus render themselves more adapted for the service which might be required of them than they could be as Infantry only. Many of the men were employed in the kind of work which specially fitted them to be Engineers, such as mining, quarrying, and other heavy work in which they had to observe engineering rules, and these men, as sappers, miners, and gunners, would be most useful for coast and garrison service.
  Such was his proposal. It might be a mistake. It was to be tested. All those things were tentative. He spoke in the name of those military men who had put the scheme on foot. For himself, he was only responsible for having adopted it, thinking it would be an admirable one, and for bringing all the forces at their disposal into the best position for the work required of them. He by no means thought the scheme a perfect one. Defects had been pointed out which might easily be remedied; but he thought it most desirable that officers and men should be ready—that they might be able to say to every General, every Colonel, every man—"This is the place to which you are to go;" that without confusion, hurry, or fuss, those who were to proceed to the front should go there, while other Army Corps might fit themselves as rapidly as possible. Some of the Army Corps would be ready at once to take the front, and the others would be drilled so as to be fit in a few weeks for active service; and no invasion could be successful in that time, or in as many months if the Fleet was in its place and did its duty as they all knew it would.
  He thought he had now gone through all the subjects on which he wished to touch. He was afraid he had wearied the House by so much detail; but he wished the Committee to test everything
  1264
  he had done. He had done nothing for concealment—all was as open as the day. If the House of Commons voted anything he asked they should do it with their eyes open. What he asked them was to pursue a system the expense of which he did not say they had seen the end. It would be large; but its object was to render every branch of the Service efficient. To improve the contentment of the Army, to prevent desertion, to improve their reliefs for India, and to prepare here in case of danger a certain number of regiments always ready, were the first objects he had in view. All this he had done with no offensive intention to any foreign Power; on the contrary, with a great desire to preserve peace, but with a great desire, too, that England should be known not to be giving up the position to which she was entitled in Europe and in respect of her colonial possessions. They claimed the right, without insult or threatening to foreign nations, to bring into as good a condition as possible their Volunteer Army, and so to prepare for the defence of their country, of their colonies, and of India, and for the fulfilment of any Treaty or other obligations that they might be called upon to recognize. They wished to be able to say to all the world that without excessive expenditure England would never be wanting in that due expenditure which would make her armies as efficient as they had been in times past; that they would not be sent forth merely to earn a transitory and temporary glory, but to do their duty to a country the stability of which interested not only herself, but all the world. The right hon. Gentleman concluded by moving the Vote for 132,884 men.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 132,884, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and for Depôts for the training of Recruits for Service at Home and Abroad, including Her Majesty's Indian Possessions, from the 1st day of April 1876 to the 31st day of March 1877, inclusive."
  MR. PEASEexpressed his regret that so few Members were in the House when the right hon. Gentleman rose to make his Statement. There were at the outset but seven Members at the right hon. Gentleman's side of the Table, and not

  1265
  more than double the number on the other side. It was due to the right hon. Gentleman to say that he had never listened to a more able or interesting statement, and he deserved the thanks of the Committee for the manner in which the Estimates had been prepared, and the digests which had been furnished. The right hon. Gentleman had proposed a large increase in the number of men for the Army, and a correspondingly largo increase in the money for their maintenance. He told them at the close of his speech that this increase was needed to guard against panic, to guard against invasion, to relieve our Army abroad, and to keep up the honour and dignity of the country. For these purposes he asked for a force of 526,000 men, the largest force that this country had ever been asked for at any time, and was certainly, in his opinion, larger than the country required. In 1873, the last year of Lord Cardwell's administration, the cost of the Army was £13,231,100; in 1874 it was£13,293,800; in 1875, £13,488,200; and now, in 1876, it had risen to £13,989,000, being an increase in three years of £750,000, while the Army Appropriation Accounts had not yet been laid upon the Table. The Army Estimates having increased by £750,000, the Navy Estimates had also gone up £1,500,000 during the same time, besides a deficit of £281,000 in the Navy Appropriation Accounts, being altogether an increase in these two Services of £2,400,000. At present it appeared that there were 95,000 regular troops at home, besides 30,000 of the reserved forces, and the Militia, Volunteers, and Yeomanry were all declared to be in an efficient and satisfactory state. For what was all this money to be spent? To guard against panic, to prevent invasion, and to sustain the honour and dignity of the country. Taking the panic argument first, he would ask what was a panic? It was, he believed, a sudden fright. Well, we had several panics of late years. We had one in 1858–9 when the French officers were denouncing this country for having given an asylum to political refugees. That panic brought into existence an army of Volunteers amounting to 180,000 men. But the panic was groundless. We had lived to see the Emperor Napoleon, then upon the Throne of France, a refugee in this
  1266
  country, and his son was lately a cadet at Woolwich. In 1858–9 there was another panic, in consequence of the taking of several persons from under the protection of the British flag on board one of our vessels. The Government sent 10,000 men to Canada to overawe the United States, which had 800,000 men ready shortly afterwards. Well, the presence of the Volunteers did not allay the panic. Another panic occurred at the outbreak of the Franco-German War, when Lord Cardwell asked the House to vote £2,000,000, and to increase the Army by 20,000 men, who still remained on the Army List. The argument now was that the Army was to preserve us from invasion. He confessed he looked around in vain to discover from what quarter we were to be invaded. Her Majesty, in her Speech from the Throne, spoke of her relations with foreign Powers as being "most cordial;" and yet the way in which we repaid our neighbours for their friendliness was to propose an increase of our Army to guard against invasion, which was, under the circumstances, an insult to the Powers with whom we were on such cordial relations. There were only three or four Powers in the world from whom an invasion could be, with any possibility, expected—Germany, France, Russia, and America. The last two might be left out of the calculation entirely. France and Germany were armed to the teeth against each other—one to retain the provinces she wrested from France during the war, the other to regain those provinces whenever they thought they were strong enough to make the attempt. There was not the slightest possibility of our being invaded by either country while such was their attitude to each other. He would add that France and Germany should be a warning to us against large armies and huge armaments. As regarded this country, the panic argument and the invasion argument fell together. There never was a time when, apparently, we were more free from attack and when our diplomatic intercourse was carried on in a more conciliatory spirit. With respect to the relief of our Army abroad, Lord Cardwell was quite satisfied with a smaller Army at home for that purpose, and the requirements then were the same as they were now. The honour and dignity of the country were not con-

  1267
  sulted by maintaining unnecessary armaments in time of peace. By so doing we Were acting in violation of the teaching of political economy, and we were inflicting upon our population the evils of war in time of peace. An Army expenditure of £15,000,000 was an insurance premium out of all proportion to the risk we were running. We were asked to spend £1,000,000 more than last year and £2,400,000 more than four years ago, and that at a time when the state of trade made it absolutely necessary we should economize. A Liverpool merchant said the other day—"Two years ago we were living on faith, last year we were living on hope, and this year we are living on charity." At the same time, while trade was falling off and the country approaching a state of stagnation, the requirements of modern society were largely augmenting local burdens concurrently with this increase of Imperial taxation. The demand for public education, for the Poor Law administration, for lunacy boards, and for sanitary boards was yearly increasing, and he said the country could not afford at the same time to spend in a time of peace such large amounts upon an Army far larger than we required. He proposed to reduce the Army by 10,000 men. The right hon. Gentleman had confessed that he had a great many men whom he would like to get rid of, and that he would be glad to obtain the services of a better class. Then why did he not get rid of the objectionable men? But what was the right hon. Gentleman doing? Why he was raising the pay of the men. It seemed to him that when doing so he was bound to reduce the number. He had come to the conclusion that whether they looked at the state of things abroad or at home they were not justified in voting these large Estimates. Perhaps the great majority of the Committee would be against him—still he felt bound, on behalf of his constituents and the country, to raise his voice against this extravagant expenditure, and which was not needed, looking at the state of the country or at the state of Europe.
  Motion made, and Question proposed,
  "That a number of Laud Forces, not exceeding 122,884, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, and for Depots for the training of Recruits for
  1268
  Service at Home and Abroad, including Her Majesty's Indian Possessions, from the 1st day of April 1876 to the 31st day of March 1877, inclusive."—(Mr. Pease.)
  SIR WALTER BARTTELOTsaid, it was all very well for the hon. Member for South Durham (Mr. Pease), who felt all the comforts of peace, to make such a Motion; but the old adage still held good—the best way of maintaining peace was to be prepared for war. The hon. Member proposed to reduce the Vote by 10,000 men. Would he say from what branch of the Army they were to be taken? Was it from the Infantry, from the Cavalry, or from the Artillery? That question had been formerly pressed upon the hon. Member for Carlisle (Sir Wilfrid Lawson), who was obliged to admit that he had not considered it, and the hon. Member for South Durham seemed to be in the same position. The speech of his right hon. Friend the Secretary for War was one that would do him credit not only with the Army, but also with the country. He had clearly stated the views for au expression of which they had been looking forward for some time past. He said the other night he was determined to do away with that feeling of anxiety with regard to the Army which caused men to say they did not know what would happen next; and he (Sir Walter Barttelot) hoped he had gone far towards removing that feeling. He had determined that the deficiency in the number of medical officers should no longer exist, and he had laid down principles which would obviate the scandal that in the absence of candidates the authorities had been compelled to accept the services of men they had formerly rejected. That was most lamentable, and it was not fair to the Army. The new scheme of his right hon. Friend he hoped would have the effect of preventing the recurrence of such a state of things. The scheme was a fair and a liberal one, and he hoped the medical profession in the Army would be satisfied, though whether it was the best or not he would not now argue. One of the questions in which the House was most deeply interested was that of the Reserves. The whole case of the noble Lord who brought in the short service rested on the Reserves. Had matters gone on as they were now, he felt certain the Army of Reserve when called out would not have been found. But by

  1269
  increasing their pay from 4d. to 6d., and by allowing deferred pay to accumulate for men now serving and to serve in the ranks, they had now a chance of getting that Reserve which the country wanted in case of emergency. There was one point here, however, on which more explanation was required. His right hon. Friend said those Reserves were to be called out for a certain period every year. The time now was only 12 days, and that time might well be increased; but, if the men were found up to the mark, they need not be kept out. They might be dismissed to their homes as soon, as they were pronounced efficient. There was one point which his right hon. Friend had missed altogether, and that was with regard to forage allowance to Field Officers. He said forage was never so high as at the present moment, and he was now giving a Field Officer 1s. 10 d. a-day for forage, but it could not be bought for the money now given. The increase of pay to noncommissioned officers was one of the best things proposed by his right hon. Friend. It would give universal satisfaction to that class of men who were, in fact, the backbone of the regiment. He did not think his right hon. Friend had increased their pay too much; but the increase was fair and liberal, and he believed the non-commissioned officers of the Army would feel that tardy justice had at length been done to them. He did not observe from the Estimates that his right hon. Friend had dealt with a grievance which was felt from the want of room in the Royal Academy at Woolwich. [Mr. GATHORNE HARDY said he had.] He was very glad to hear it. It was not right that four cadets—young fellows who might be from Eton, where they each had a separate room—should be placed in one room. That was an evil that ought to be remedied. He was also glad to learn—although upon this point it would be premature to express any definite opinion—that his right hon. Friend intended to call out two Army Corps; the whole country would then know what the mobilization scheme was, and could judge what its effect would be. On one important point his right hon. Friend did not touch, except in an indirect manner—namely, the arming of our soldiers. The Martini-Henry rifle was, no doubt, a weapon wonderful in its performance when in good order; but when he asked
  1270
  the Surveyor General, year after year, how that weapon was going on, the reply always was it required a little repair, and that 2s. 11 d. would cover the whole expense. That little alteration, however, would require an expenditure of £75,000. In the Malay expedition it had not answered the expectations of the officers. It had a trick sometimes of not going off when required, and also of going off when not required. This subject required careful consideration from the authorities. The spiral spring in the lock, which was apt to become loose or rusty, was, he thought, fatal to this weapon. But having once been adopted, it was rather difficult to get rid of. For himself, he would say he would rather to-morrow go into action with the old Snider rifle than with the Martini-Henry rifle. Our soldiers should be armed with the best weapon we could find. He hoped his right hon. Friend would look closely and fairly into this matter. They must all have admired the clear, able, and straightforward manner in which he had brought forward these Estimates, and he was quite sure he would do nothing which he did not believe would conduce to the best interests of the Army and the country.
  MR. CAMPBELL-BANNERMANsaid, he would add his testimony to what had been said in praise of the very full, clear, and candid statement of the right hon. Gentleman. He only regretted that it was delivered at a time when so few Members were present to hear it. The principal measures which the right hon. Gentleman had brought before them were the additional pay to the non-commissioned officers, the grant of increased pay in the shape of deferred pay to the entire Army, and a slight increase of pay to the Guards. With regard to the first, he was very glad that the right hon. Gentleman had seen his way to propose it. Three years ago, when a small addition was made to the pay of the Army at the time that the ration stoppage was abolished, the late Secretary of State had it in contemplation to improve the position of the non-commissioned officers; and it was his intention to apply to this purpose the balance of the sum which would ultimately be saved by the lapse of the re-engagement penny—the part of that sum which had already, accrued having been taken to the credit of the stoppage arrangement. He (Mr. Campbell-Ban-

  1271
  nerman) mentioned that, not in the least by way of detracting from the credit due to the right hon. Gentleman, but only to show how sincerely he could express his agreement in the policy the right hon. Gentleman was pursuing. He (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) trusted it might have the effect he contemplated—of increasing the attractiveness of the Army—and he would congratulate the right hen. Gentleman on having his name associated with so useful an improvement. As to deferred pay, no doubt there was a great deal to be said in favour of the theory; but there were two considerations, which he would urge as having some weight on the other side. In the first place, were they sure that the men to whom they would offer it would "understand and appreciate it? The men knew what it was to get money in their hand, and sometimes, unhappily, made a bad use of it; but would they appreciate the fact, and would it have the effect we expected if they knew, that at the end of their service a certain sum would accrue to them? Another point was—it was one of the advantages of deferred payment that it gave us a certain hold over the men. That particularly applied to the Reserve. If a man knew that at the end of his term of service he would, if he conducted himself well, be discharged with a certain sum of money in his pocket, we should have a hold on him which we had not at present; but we could not have a hold upon him without, to some extent, his having a corresponding hold on us; and he (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) thought that difficulties might arise in some cases in consequence of a man's conduct, near the period when a large sum of money would be due to him, being such as to render it undesirable that he should be retained. Difficulties of that kind occurred in the case of an established workman who was going on pension, with whom we could not deal so freely as with a man hired in the open market. This objection, however, to deferred pay was not an insurmountable one. As to the additional penny which the right hon. Gentleman proposed to give to the Guards, was he quite sure that it would cure the evils from which they suffered? The Guards had a stock fund, which had been abolished in other regiments, into which payments were made by the public, and with which they conducted their own
  1272
  hospital arrangements and recruiting. He (Mr. Campbell-Bannerman) wished to know whether the inquiry which had been instituted into that anomalous system had been continued; and also whether explicit instructions had been given to the Colonels of districts to give every facility in their power to the recruiting of the Guards? It was quite true the Guards had to keep themselves in a smarter condition than the rest of the Army; but surely their recruiting ought to be assisted by their prestige and by the fact that they had the very best quarters in the Army; and he was disposed to believe that if recruits were not obtained in sufficient numbers for the Guards, it was not so much owing to inadequacy of pay as to the fact that they were shut out from the benefit of the general recruiting machinery of the Army, and especially from the district recruiting. He thought no objection could be made to the proposition to give an addition of £2 a-year to the Army Reserve, because the better we made their condition the stronger would be the call we should have upon them. He did not think they should be called out for more than 12 days, because otherwise we should seriously interfere with their civil employment. We called them out, not so much for the purpose of drilling, as to see them assemble and ascertain their condition. He had little to say-as to the mobilization scheme. The right hon. Gentleman had bestowed great labour upon it. It might be necessary for the military authorities to know where each regiment of the Militia and the Line should go on the outbreak of war; but why should the information be published on the house-tops? He did not see any particular advantage in every man in every regiment in the country knowing where he should go. It appeared to him that all that was required was that the authorities in the War Office should know where a regiment should be ordered to go, and have their plans ready for execution at a moment's notice. What was said as to the general condition of the Army, he thought, must be satisfactory to everybody. The right hon. Gentleman appeared to him to take precisely the right line with regard to the condition of the Army. He was neither too sanguine in his estimate of it nor did he yield to those exaggerated

  1273
  criticisms which were common out of doors. As to the proposition made by his hon. Friend behind him (Mr. Pease) to reduce the number of men by 10,000, it did not appear why his hon. Friend had selected that number; indeed, his argument was almost in favour of disbanding the Army altogether. Her Majesty's Government must know better than the House or any private individual what was the state of political affairs; and therefore he (Mr. Campbell-Banner-man) felt very much disposed to bow to their opinion as to the number of men that ought to be voted. There was only one other subject to which he wished to allude—namely, the medical department of the Army. Nothing had delighted him more for many a day than the decided tone in which the right hon. Gentleman had spoken on the general hospital system of the medical department; and notwithstanding the pressure that had been brought to bear upon the right hon. Gentleman, he felt sure that the more he looked into the question and consulted the competent authorities, the more he would see the absolute necessity of the Staff system. His proposals for improving the position of the medical officers appeared to be excellent. One suggestion which he would venture to make, with a view, not, perhaps, to its immediate, but its ultimate adoption, was that the medical officers who went out of the Service after 10 years might be employed for the Militia and the Brigade Depôts, whereby, while discharging those duties, they would have the opportunity of settling in practice in a country town. In referring to the medical department the right hon. Gentleman expressed the opinion—which it was to be hoped he would bear in mind in connection with the greater questions of Army promotion and retirement—that it was dangerous to enter a great number of young men at the bottom, because they would have to provide for them when they attained higher rank. That was a consideration which lay at the basis of all sound schemes of promotion and retirement.
  COLONEL NAGHTENoffered some suggestions in regard to recruiting. He recommended, among other things, that after serving three years in the Militia any man who wished to join the Regular Army should have his bounty paid to him partly on joining the Regular service,
  1274
  and partly on completing the period which he would have completed if he had remained in the Militia. He also thought that, instead of enlisting immature youths in the Army, it would be better to enlist them in the Militia even under the present standard; and then three years afterwards, when they had developed considerably, they would be fit as well as pleased to join the Regular Army as grown men, and would have a liking for the Service. In his opinion, the Militia ought to be made more a nursery for the regular Army than it was now. He thought it would be well to remodel the Ballot Act so that it might be used, if required, and in the meantime to do everything possible to encourage men to go into the ranks.
  MR. SULLIVANsaid, he hoped that although it was a Colonels' night a few words from a civilian would not be in-acceptable to the House. He recognized the difficulty of the position in which an English Minister of War was placed. By means of conscription vast armies were being organized on the Continent of Europe, and industry and trade were crushed under overwhelming armaments. The question was, whether England was to obey her peaceful instincts, or take part in the mad competition for inflated armies? As a compromise, we were making a halting step towards adopting the new system; but there was this difficulty to face, and he had not yet heard any one attempt to grapple with it. If England was to, take part in that wild struggle for military supremacy, what was to be her position as an industrial country? He could understand that the Secretary for War, in view of the great military strength of continental Powers, had a patriotic desire not to see his country altogether unprepared for the possibilities of an evil day; but it was idle to pretend that if England had to encounter the armies of the Continent it was merely upon her military strength that she could rely. With regard to the mobilization scheme, he might observe that the Irish Militia were singularly neglected, and whether that circumstance was due to political considerations, or the mere accidents of military strategy, he had yet to be informed. However that might be, the foreigner who criticized our new military system would be at no loss to notice that in Ireland, once our best recruiting

  1275
  ground, not one of the native Militia regiments was to form part of the local Army Corps. It was all very well for a Minister to pet certain classes of people in the country; but in the end the people themselves would turn upon the system under which the process was carried on. Underlying the whole subject before the House there was the great question—How were we to get men? One thing he could tell the Secretary for War was that branding in the Army would not help him to get recruits—it would, at all events, not help him to get recruits in Ireland. It was a painful fact that while they were adding to the Army at one end it was falling away at the other; desertion, in fact, was nearly keeping pace with recruitment. But it was not from an exclusively military view that this subject was to be regarded, and he invited the Committee to inquire how it was, after all that had been done to increase the comfort of the Army, that we found it harder to get soldiers to-day than 50 years ago, even although the requirements of height and physical development had been gradually lowered. What had become of the splendid material that fought the British battles 40 or 50 years ago? How came it to pass that it was so difficult to recruit now as compared with former times? It was because the rural population of the country had disappeared into the large cities and towns, and because the conditions of life, the sanitary conditions of the humbler classes, were not conducive to the production of a military race. He made no reflection on the men of the cities and towns; many of the greatest battles in the world were fought and won by them, and the Royalist forces were defeated by the Parliamentarians. Nevertheless, it was only in the green fields and the cottage homes of the country that stalwart class of men could be produced. How came it that they were gone? It was because in England, as well as in Ireland, within the last 50 years a terrific revolution had swept the people from the fields into cities and towns. This great change had not been so much felt in England, which had big towns like London, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, and Birmingham; but in Ireland the change had been keenly felt, because they had no Manchesters and no Birminghams to absorb the thrust out population. In
  1276
  Ireland what were the chances of recruitment? "While the whole population were in a state of discontent and dissatisfaction they need not expect their chances as to recruitment to improve in Ireland. He knew something of his people, and he knew something of the excitement among them whenever a great military question arose. They knew they were not trusted by the Minister for War, because there was no Volunteer force in Ireland. The best military strength that they could supply would be to satisfy the Irish people and make the military service popular in Ireland. They could not get what they-wanted by offering 2d. more a-day, and he said to the Government—" Do not think that Irishmen, at all events, are to be won merely by 1½d. or 2d., with the advantage of branding into the bargain." If they had to call on the arm of Ireland for aid or defence, it could not be given while the people entertained their present feelings; and, without any reference to a question of money, the sense of national honour and duty would induce them not to enter in any considerable numbers into the military strength of the Empire.
  COLONEL EGERTON LEIGHsaid, he did not agree with the hon. Gentleman who had just spoken. He had had several Irishmen under his command, and he was very much pleased with them, and he believed that they were well pleased with him. He would not wish to have better soldiers than Irishmen. It was said that grumbling had made England the country that she was; and if grumbling could do anything for the Army it would be one of the greatest armies going. It was, so far as he could see, in anything but a bad way, and he thought the changes now proposed by the Government would be great improvements. He was particular gratified at the increase of the pay of non-commissioned officers, and he should like that those of them who had been a certain time in the Army should have a pension. It was said that England was at peace with all the world; but she was never absolutely at peace, and within the last six months had been on the point of war with China and Burmah. An immense country like "ours must always expect to have some little or great war on hand, and we ought to be prepared for any emergency which might arise.
  MR. J. HOLMSsaid, that as it was desirable to have further time to consider the very important statement of the Secretary for War, and also the important Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for South Durham (Mr. Pease), he should move that the Chairman be ordered to report Progress.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Holms.)
  MR. GATHORNE HARDYsaid, he hoped the Committee would grant a Vote for the men that night. The information which had been in the hands of hon. Members was very full, and was quite a guide to them; and therefore he could not see that there was any ground for stopping the discussion at that hour—half-past 11 o'clock. If the Committee came to a conclusion that night it would enable the House to go on with the Mutiny Act, which was this year important in connection with some questions affecting the Militia.
  MR. WHALLEYsupported the Motion to report Progress, on the ground that the hon. Member for Hackney, who had been so frequently referred to in the course of the debate, was entitled to get time to consider his reply. He complained that the Secretary for "War had omitted all reference to the Volunteers, upon whom the country must rely for its defence, and declared that nature was against the maintenance of a standing Army in England. The speech of the hon. Member for Louth (Mr. Sullivan) was well worthy of consideration. It showed that there was an enemy in the very citadel. He was reminded of what the Duke of Wellington once said, that he would not have roman Catholics in the Royal Artillery or Engineers, simply because of their uncertain allegiance. The older Members of that House had been striving to conciliate by civil means, and also by religious concessions, that particular section of the community, and yet they were now told there was discontent.
  THE CHAIRMAN: I must remind the hon. Member that it is not considered a convenient course to discuss the main Question in detail on a Motion to report Progress.
  MR. WHALLEYsaid, what he had stated was only by way of parenthesis.
  1278
  He was quoting the authority of the Duke of Wellington. How could an Army be relied upon that numbered so many in its ranks who did not recognize the supremacy of the Sovereign?
  MR. ANDERSONsaid, he thought that it would save time by reporting Progress at once, because it was quite evident there were so many Members who desired to address the Committee that the Vote could not be taken to-night. He might say, at the same time, that nearly all the proposals of the Secretary for War, being in his opinion reforms, would have his support, though other important subjects had been raised which required most careful consideration, and he certainly could not agree in the proposal to increase the number of men.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, he thought it was hardly possible to take the Vote to-night. It was always understood that the discussion on the first Vote extended over a wide range of subjects; and he did not think that the right hon. Gentleman would wish to limit a preliminary discussion which would, perhaps, facilitate the progress of the remaining Votes.
  MR. DISRAELIconsented to postpone the Vote till Monday, when the Committee would be taken as the first business.
  Question put, and agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow.

  COUNCIL OF INDIA (PROFESSIONAL APPOINTMENTS) BILL.— [BILL 69.]
  (Lord George Hamilton, Mr. William Henry Smith.)

  SECOND READTNG.
  Order for Second Reading read.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."—(Lord George Hamilton.)
  MR. FAWCETT, in rising to move "That it is inexpedient to pass this Bill, as it would throw an additional and unnecessary charge on the Revenues of India," said, they had heard of a horse being re-sold with his colour changed, and that transaction represented with considerable accuracy what had been done with

  1279
  that Bill. On the 25th February last year a Bill entitled "The East India Home Government (Pensions) Bill" was introduced. That Bill passed its third reading, and at the very last moment the hon. Member for Reading (Mr. Shaw Lefevre) discovered that it was so badly drawn and its real nature so little understood that he got it postponed till the following Thursday. It was then recommitted, but finally withdrawn. It appeared again in July last in a new form and with a new title—" The East India Home Government (Appointments) Bill," and it now came before them as the Council of India (Professional Appointments) Bill. He would put a difficult question to the Government, What was the reason of all those ungracious devices? Why this indecent haste to give pensions to men who were not entitled to them? Those were plain questions, and he hoped the House would support him in opposing the Bill. It was difficult to say what the Bill would do and what it would not do. In 1869 a Bill was introduced in this House, and passed through both Houses, providing for appointments to the Council of India, and the provision being large during the tenure of office, that no person should be entitled to a pension, even if his office were abolished. And that Act further provided that no man should hold the office beyond a certain number of years. Notwithstanding, that Bill was brought in to give pensions to members of the Council who were appointed under the Act of 1869, and it would contravene that Act if the House allowed it to pass. The appointments under the Act of 1869 had been eagerly sought for; and he must say that the course now proposed was most undignified. If a Cabinet Minister went out of office he was not entitled to a pension, and yet this Bill proposed to give pensions to men who took office on the express condition that they were not to be entitled to retiring pensions. If we were so careless about granting pensions in India, and so indifferent to the extravagant expenditure of the government there, what would the people of that country think of our guardianship of their interests? They would not be mollified by the association of their country with the Imperial titles of the Sovereign. He begged to move the Amendment of which he had given Notice.
  Amendment proposed,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "it is inexpedient to pass this Bill, as it would throw an additional and unnecessary charge on the Revenues of India,"—(Mr. Fawcett,)
  —instead thereof.
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTONsaid, the hon. Member for Hackney was mistaken in supposing that the Bill introduced in July last was the same as that brought in last February. It was quite different, and only withdrawn because it was thought that the Treasury would be embarrassed by the interpretation which it placed upon the Superannuation Act. The Bill had now been introduced in order to secure the services of the best possible men on the Indian Council. There was no difficulty in getting old Indians to join the Indian Council, because they came home with pensions, and, added to that, £1,200 a-year for 10 years as members of the Council. But there was a difficulty in getting gentlemen of legal attainments not old Indians to come on the Council, because only £1,200 could be offered to them for 10 years, with no pension. The Bill, therefore, simply proposed that the Secretary of State for India should have power to appoint certain gentlemen of professional attainments for 15 years, with pensions of £500 after 10 years' service, and it was believed that this was the Cheapest way of obtaining legal advice. With respect to the increase of the home expenditure for India, no doubt that had been very large since 1857–8 up to the present time, but the whole of that increase was for the purposes of the Government in India, and if the Indian Office here was abolished to-morrow, these charges on the revenue of India would remain for purely Indian purposes. The guaranteed interest on railways was a very large item. The interest on the Debt had increased from £670,000 in 1856–7 to £2,300,000, owing to the expenditure necessary to put down the Indian Mutiny. The charge for stores was also high; and so long as stores could be obtained cheaper in England than in India he trusted they would always be procured at home. There was, however, one item of cost which the Indian Government could control, and that was the charge for administration, which exhibited a decrease, although the work had increased enormously. In our depart-

  1281
  ment only the number of despatches had increased eightfold during the last 20 years. In 1856–7 the cost of the Home administration was £179,849; but although there had been a vast increase in the duties performed, the cost was, in 1870, £177,000, or a decrease of £2,000. There was, perhaps, no Department of the State in which the work had increased so much with so little corresponding increase of expenditure. In 1866–7 the law charges of the East India Company amounted to upwards of £19,000, because they had no lawyers upon their establishment, while last year the law charges of the India Office were only £2,500. If the hon. Member for Hackney was successful in throwing out this Bill, he would not only prevent the Secretary of State from obtaining that assistance which he believed to be necessary, but would unquestionably, in the long run, throw heavy additional charges on the revenues of India.
  SIR GEORGE CAMPBELLsaid, no doubt it was desirable there should be some legal element in the Council, although he would deprecate the introduction of too many lawyers, and especially of lawyers as distinguished from jurisconsults. It was of enormous importance that the Secretary of State for India, who was more uncontrolled than any other Minister, should have the most eminent men upon his Council, and a trumpery pension of £500 a-year was a mere drop in the ocean by comparison. There were men of great weight and value now on the Council, who would not have taken office on the reduced terms. He had himself been appointed to a place in the Council, and possibly, if the terms had been the same as they were prior to the Act of 1869, he might never have left it. He found, however, that if he chanced to live 10 years he should be thrown out of the Council without a profession and without pension, and he resigned this precarious situation. His experience thus showed that there were cases in which the inducements of a seat in the Council were not such as to lead men of very humble pretensions to care to retain it. On the other hand, he regretted that matters of this importance should be dealt with by patchwork legislation. He thought that the whole constitution of the Home Government of India should be overhauled and re-considered.
  MR. HARDCASTLEwished to know whether, under the provisions of this Bill, those merchants who were members of the Indian Council would receive pensions?
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTONsaid, such was not the intention of the Bill.
  MR. GRANT DUFFsaid, he thought the Government had done good service in bringing in the measure, which he considered would be a great advantage to India and a great gain in the way of economy.
  MR. T. E. SMITHsaid, that he should feel it his duty to oppose any Bill which would cause further increase of expenses.
  SIR WILLIAM HARCOURTsaid, that he should support the Bill, which was carefully limited for the advantage of those persons who were specified.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 151; Noes 41: Majority 110.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday next.

  MERCHANT SHIPPING [SALARIES, &c.]
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  The House divided:—Ayes 71; Noes 34: Majority 37.
  MATTER considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of the Salaries of all Surveyors appointed under the Merchant Shipping Acts, and of the Expenses connected with the Survey and Measurement of Ships, and of the Salaries and Expenses of Persons employed under the Passengers Act, 1855, and of the Salaries and Remuneration of all Officers that may he appointed under any Act of the present Session for amending the Merchant Shipping Acts, and of all Costs and Compensation payable by the Board of Trade in pursuance of such Act.
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow.

  CATTLE DISEASE (IRELAND) BILL.
  On Motion of Sir MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH, Bill to amend the Acts relating to Cattle Disease in Ireland, ordered to be brought in by Sir

  1283
  MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH and Mr. SOLICITOR GENERAL for IRELAND.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 94.]

  PROTECTION TO GROWING CROPS (SCOTLAND) BILL.
  On Motion of Sir ALEXANDER GORDON, Bil to enable the Tenants of Arable Farms in Soot-land to protect their growing crops from injury by Hares and Rabbits, ordered to be brought in by Sir ALEXANDER GORDON, Sir ROBERT ANSTRUTHER, Viscount MACDUFF, and Sir WINDHAM ANSTRUTHER.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 95.]
  House adjourned at half after One o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILL—Second Beading—Referred to Select Committee—Ecclesiastical Offices and Fees (3).
ECCLESIASTICAL OFFICES AND FEES BILL.—(No. 3.)
(The Lord Chancellor.)

SECOND READING.
Order of the Day for the Second Beading, read.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY, in moving that the Bill be now read the second time, said, their Lordships would remember that last year he introduced a Bill which dealt with a portion of the difficult question of Ecclesiastical Fees. It provided that all persons hereafter appointed to any of the offices treated of in this Bill should hold the same subject to such regulations as to fees as might hereafter be made by Parliament and should make the returns to the Treasury of the amounts they received. While the Bill was under discussion the noble and learned Lord upon the Woolsack declared that he concurred in a hope expressed by the right rev. Prelate the Bishop of Carlisle that that small Bill might be regarded as a solemn pledge that the whole question of fees would be dealt with without delay; and he (the Archbishop of Canterbury) also expressed his concurrence in that view. In 1872 a Bill, of which the noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury) took charge dealing with the whole question, was carried through this House, but did not make progress in the House of Commons; and that measure was in succession to Bills, having the same object, introduced in 1870 and 1871, one of which was the product of the labours of a Select Committee of their Lordships' House. Their Lordships would therefore see that the question was not a new one, that it had been very thoroughly considered, and that there was great difficulty in passing any measure with regard to it. It would give some idea of the difficulty and complication of the question with which they had to deal when he stated that as he was informed there were more than 100 Acts of Parliament relating to ecclesiastical offices, and that
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about 60 of them were still in full force. The present measure, so far as it dealt with ecclesiastical offices and fees, was as much as possible a reproduction of the well-considered Bills introduced in the previous Sessions by the noble Earl (the Earl of Shaftesbury), to whom all who took an interest in the question of ecclesiastical fees were so much indebted. But first their Lordships must consider for a moment whether it was wise or necessary to press any measure upon the Legislature on this subject. It was an opinion not uncommonly held by those who had not looked into the matter that the whole of the offices to which this Bill referred were sinecures, that the duties performed by the persons who held them were of no use to anybody, and that the sooner the whole system fell to pieces the better. But he thought that those who had examined the question would be of opinion that the offices proposed to be preserved in this Bill were necessary for the welfare of the Church and the community, and that in seeking to regulate and to diminish the number of these offices he was undertaking to make really effective an important part of the machinery of the Church. He need hardly point out that when a young man was ordained to the ministry of the Established Church he acquired certain civil privileges; and consequently some registration of the act of ordination was indispensable in order that his civil rights might be secured. Again, when a building was set apart for the services of the Church and the celebration of marriages, civil consequences resulted from the ecclesiastical acts performed which made a careful registration absolutely essential. Again, inconvenience would of course arise if the clergy were under no discipline, and unless there were means of inspecting the mode in which their duties were discharged, or of punishing any offence which they might commit in derogation of their sacred character. The act of visitation, therefore, was of a judicial nature, and the proceedings accompanying it must of course be registered; and therefore certain officers, who were not distinctly ecclesiastics and yet had to do with these ecclesiastical matters, had been called into existence. Institutions, collations, and inductions of the clergy into their offices were all matters involving important civil consequences, and

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certain officers were necessarily required to see that these various acts were duly and properly performed, and that a register of what had taken place was properly kept, in case future civil action arose with reference to them. As he had said, a great number of officers had sprung into existence whose duty it was to watch these various judicial processes. But he was not prepared to say that the number of such officers was not excessive, and it was one of the objects of this Bill to unite different offices in the same person, and thereby diminish the number. He, as Archbishop of Canterbury, had the honour of commanding the services of a Dean of the Arches, a Master of the Faculties, a Registrar of the Court of Arches, a Registrar of the Court of the Faculties, a Vicar General, a Registrar of the Vicar General's Office, a Chancellor of the Diocese of Canterbury, and a Registrar and a Deputy Registrar of the Diocese, besides a Secretary and Apparitors. As it would be absurd to suppose that the duties of these persons were so onerous that they could not be united this Bill proposed to reduce the staff. Officers of the like character, though not quite so numerous, existed in every diocese; and in addition there were the Archidiaconal officers; for, though the Archdeacon's Courts had been abolished, officers of those Courts still existed. The fact was, that the existing machinery was partly the remnant of an old system altered by legislation; but, as a matter of fact, two or three persons in each diocese might perform the whole of the work for which a large staff was now maintained. Up to 1857 the Dean of the Court of Arches had to do with not only the ecclesiastical business of the Province of Canterbury, but with the whole of the marriage law as it then existed in that Province; and the Dean presiding over the Prerogative Court had to do with testamentary affairs. But in 1857 a change took place—testamentary and matrimonial causes were withdrawn from the Archbishop's Court, which was consequently left in a somewhat ruinous condition. When a new Court of Probate and Divorce was established, the late Lord Cranworth, who was at that time Lord Chancellor, was asked how the Judge of the Arches Court was to be remunerated in future for the work which he was to be called upon to discharge—the amount he received as
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Judge of that Court being about £15. From 1857 till this year the difficulty was overcome by the Archbishop of Canterbury asking the Judge of Admiralty to undertake the duties of the Arches Court. Thanks were due to the learned Judges who complied with that request; but delays naturally arose in the discharge of the business of the Arches Court, which ought to be completed with as much despatch as possible. The delays arose from no want of diligence on the part of the learned Judges—they were inevitable under the arrangement existing at the time. Under the new Judicature Act it became no longer possible for the Judge of the Admiralty Court to hold an ecclesiastical office. The question therefore arose, how, under existing conditions, the Judge of the Court of Arches was to be remunerated? It was indispensable that a conclusion should be arrived at on that point. Last July a noble and learned Lord—who was not now present (Lord Penzance)—undertook the duties of the Judge of the Arches Court, and in the present Bill it was proposed that a system should be established whereby proper remuneration should be given to the holder of the office now filled by that noble and learned Lord. The amount of that remuneration was left open in the Bill; and the same course was adopted with regard to the remuneration of several other officers. Before settling the question of remuneration, care should be taken to secure, so far as the regulations of Parliament could effect it, that all persons to be appointed were perfectly fitted to discharge their duties. It was accordingly proposed that all persons who held the office of registrar or any other office dealt with by the Bill should discharge the duties of their office in person, and that the registrars as well as the chancellors should have certain legal qualifications—such as should give security to the country that they were fitted for the discharge of their duties. The time, perhaps, was past when there could be any very serious abuse in that way; but still it was a fact that not very long ago the office of registrar was held in one diocese by a gentleman who was a missionary of the Free Church of Scotland, and who, he (the Archbishop of Canterbury) supposed, had been in the enjoyment of the post since the time he was in his cradle. Again, it was not so

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very long ago when a noble and learned Lord, while speaking vigorously in their Lordships' House against the present system, was reminded by a right rev. Prelate who interrupted him that he himself was a registrar. The noble and learned Lord was so surprised that he could scarcely continue his argument. There had been a great deal of difficulty in obtaining a statement of the amount of fees which were at present collected by the various ecclesiastical officers; but a very moderate computation made them amount altogether to £46,000. Of these marriage licences produced about £18,000; general fees to Bishops' officers, £21,000; and, so far as he could ascertain, the fees paid to archdeacons and their officers, £7,000. That he believed to be the lowest and most moderate calculation. Looking carefully into the matter, it would appear that by giving effect to the provisions of the Bill, and assigning fair salaries to the several officers employed, a saving of about £10,000 a-year might be effected. It might be hoped, therefore, that when the system which this Bill would establish was brought into working order, there might be brought about a diminution in the fees now paid by the clergy and others. Some of the fees were unpalatable in themselves, and others were unpalatable by reason of the mode in which they were collected. Visitation fees—which he thought were not immoderate in amount—were extremely irritating for the second of those reasons. But in some cases almost as heavy a fee had to be paid on giving up an office as on being appointed. It need scarcely be said that such a fee was unpalatable. It was now proposed that all ecclesiastical fees should be paid over to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners; but to provide against any encroachment on the Common Fund of that Commission, it would be enacted that in respect of those fees, the Ecclesiastical Commissioners should not pay out more than they received. There was an apparent exception to this in the provision for the payment of £200 to be paid to archdeacons; but they were entitled to this sum under an existing Act of Parliament, though they had not yet received it in full. To sum up, offices were to be united; the number of officers was to be diminished; legal qualifications were to be insisted on before any person could be appointed to office; the officers were to dis-
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charge their duties in person; hereafter all ecclesiastical fees, the subject of the Bill, were to be paid into a General Fund and distributed in the way of salaries. It was desirable that the civil machinery of the Established Church should be such as to command respect. It was not desirable to try and prop up a system which was tottering to its fall—they ought rather to put their house in order, and make due provision for the proper discharge of duties which were essential to the maintenance and the welfare of the Church. He anticipated that there would be no violent or very manifest opposition to the Bill; but there would be a steady, he might say stolid determination on the part of some persons that it should share the fate of other attempts in the same direction. The great danger to the measure lay in the fact that sufficient interest would not be manifested in its favour, and that the views of those who feared that it affected vested interests would prevail. This fear was not well founded, because the greatest care had been taken to preserve vested interests. The majority of the ecclesiastical officers now living were valuable servants of the Church, and to them the country was greatly indebted for the zealous discharge of their duties, and they had no reason to fear any injustice from the right rev. Bench. He would earnestly commend the Bill to the consideration of their Lordships, and trusted that they would now give it the second reading.
Moved "That the Bill be now read 2a."—(The Archbishop of Canterbury.)
THE EARL OF SHAFTESBURYconsidered the Bill as one of great importance to the interests of the Church, and the thanks of their Lordships were due to the most rev. Prelate for its introduction. The measure would abolish many sinecure offices, and consolidate many more. But it would be necessary to amend the Bill in Committee. As to that part of the Bill which dealt with fees, he did not know whether the House of Commons would agree to the payment of fees by stamps; but he, for one, thought that would be an improvement. Great changes had of late years been effected by legislation in our ecclesiastical system, and it was desirable that the Chancellor and other high officers of the dioceses should be barristers of good

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standing, and that the registrars should do their duty in person, and not by deputy. The most rev. Prelate had calculated the fees at only £46,000 a-year; but he (the Earl of Shaftesbury) thought the amount would be much larger—he thought it would be found they would realize £71,000—that was the amount at which it was estimated in 1871. He objected strongly to the 42nd clause as containing a principle which he felt sure their Lordships would never approve. That clause was as follows:—
"From and after the commencement of this Act no churchwarden shall he admitted to office unless he produce a certificate of his appointment, signed by the chairman of the vestry at which such churchwarden was appointed. Such certificate shall he made on a printed form, bearing a stamp of the value of five shillings, supplied by the registrar of the diocese at the expense of the church warden. Such churchwarden shall be entitled to be repaid the cost of such stamp from any funds applicable to the maintenance and repair of the parish church of the parish of which he is churchwarden, or to the expenses of conducting Divine service in such church. Whore more than one churchwarden is appointed at any vestry the certificates of such appointment may be made on one form without any additional stamp. Nothing contained in this section shall be construed to exempt any churchwarden from any duty which may now be imposed upon him to attend visitations and to be admitted to office and to make presentments and answers to articles of inquiry thereat; but no fee shall be paid at such visitation by any churchwarden. The expression 'churchwarden' in this section shall be construed to include 'sidesman.' "
He thought that subjecting the churchwardens by Act of Parliament to a fee of 5s. was in itself objectionable; but nothing could be more objectionable than giving churchwardens the power of repaying themselves out of funds applicable to the maintenance and repair of the parish church, or to the expenses of conducting Divine service. Such a power would dry up all voluntary sources of supply. In his opinion, now that the Diocesan Courts were practically abolished, the whole of the ecclesiastical fees ought to be thoroughly revised, and not dealt with in the piecemeal manner proposed by this Bill. They pressed with great heaviness on the parochial clergy, and, as far as they were concerned, he thought that the greater part of them ought to be abolished altogether.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF YORKpointed out that the Diocesan Courts were by no means practically abolished—on the
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contrary, their efficiency, he hoped, would be greatly increased by recent legislation. It was true that one class of cases were taken from those Courts, but two large and important classes were left to them. With regard to the discrepancy in the aggregate value of the fees as estimated by the most rev. Prelate and by the noble Earl, it should be remembered that the estimate of £46,000 excluded the fees of the Archdeacons, £3,600, and those of the Surrogates, £6,800, which would bring the gross total of the most rev. Prelate up to £56,000. In many departments there would be a saving of from 40 to 50 per cent in the fees to be paid.
THE EARL OF POWISobjected to the measure as one which had a tendency to destroy the independence of the several Dioceses, by sweeping away all the fees into one fund, to be administered in an almost irresponsible manner. The Bill was really neither more nor less than a Bill to provide a salary for the new Ecclesiastical Judge under the Public Worship Regulation Act. The question was, whether this money could not be raised without this Bill, which would disturb all the present arrangements for collecting and paying ecclesiastical foes throughout the country. He thought the payment by stamps would only augment the confusion.
VISCOUNT HALIFAXalso objected to the 42nd clause. At present, in the case of many parishes the fees for the admission of Churchwardens was nor paid. The Churchwardens had no legal right to recover the amount from a voluntary church rate. In other churches, the funds for the proper maintenance of the services were derived from the offertory; but if people found that their offerings were to be applied to the payment of these fees to a general fund the offerings would probably be much reduced.
THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, he did not intend to offer any objection to the second reading of the Bill. His noble Friend (the Earl of Powis) had stigmatized the Bill as a measure intended to provide the salary for the Judge under the Public Worship Regulation Act; but, so far from that being the fact, there had been several Bills with similar objects brought into their Lordships' House before the Public Worship Regulation Act was even proposed. He would not go into the ques-

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tion whether or not the Bill went far enough as to the reduction of fees, but the measure comprised a great many-details with regard to the amalgamation of various offices which would require very careful consideration. The collection of fees by means of stamps was proposed in some of the former Bills; but it was held to be very questionable whether they could be conveniently and satisfactorily collected in that way. Having regard to the complicated nature of many of the details he would suggest to the most rev. Prelates that their Bill would have a better chance of progressing if it were referred to a Select Committee than if it were dealt with in Committee of the Whole House. If that course were adopted, Her Majesty's Government would render the most rev. Prelates all the assistance in their power.
LORD DYNEVORthought the Bill did not go far enough in the regulation of fees, for there were many ecclesiastical fees which the Bill did not touch. He also objected strongly to the 42nd clause; and thought that, as the office of churchwardens was not a pleasant one and had no emolument whatever attached to it, no new burden should be put upon them.
THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURTsaid, he would adopt the suggestion thrown out by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack that the Bill should be referred to a Select Committee. He wished to point out that the measure did not propose to lay any fresh burden upon churchwardens. Those officers were at present called upon to pay fees varying from 18 s. downwards, and it was proposed to reduce the fees to an uniform 5s. all over the country. With reference to the remarks of the noble Earl (the Earl of Powis) on the subject of the transfer to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners of official buildings belonging to registries, those buildings in which the work of the registry was conducted were expressly excepted from the Bill, and therefore they would not pass into the hands of the Commissioners. All the suggestions that had been made would receive the most careful attention when the measure was before the Select Committee.
Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and referred to a Select Committee.
And, on March 7, the Lords following were named of the Committee:—

L. Abp. Canterbury.

V. Halifax.

Ld. Chancellor.

V. Cardwell.

M. Salisbury.

L. Bp. Gloucester and Bristol.

Ld. Steward.

E. Shaftesbury.

L. Bp. Ely.

E. Stanhope.

L. Strafford.

E. Powis.

L. Hatherley.

E. Nelson.

L. Winmarleigh.

APPEALS—STANDING ORDER.

  RESOLUTION.
  LORD REDESDALEsaid, that his object in proposing the Resolution of which he had given Notice, of a new Standing Order with regard to the number of Law Lords sitting to hear appeals in their Lordships' House was this—that the Bill relating to the Appellate Jurisdiction of the House, which had been introduced by the noble and learned Lord on the Woolsack, contained a similar provision fixing the minimum number of Law Lords who were to sit and determine appeals. Under these circumstances, it was desirable that the House, which had ample power to do so, should of its own act do that which the statutable enactment would require to be done. He humbly conceived that whatever was required to be done could be done by their Lordships themselves without any legislation, and in the manner provided by this Resolution. The object of the provision was to meet the evil that had been dwelt upon very much, of a single Law Lord sitting with two lay Peers to hear and determine appeals. The Standing Order which he proposed would make no difference in the practice of the House. It would only provide that three noble Lords, qualified by their previous professional training, should sit on the hearing of appeals, and would not preclude any other noble Lords from attending at such hearings.
  Moved to resolve, That no Appeal or Cause in Error shall be heard and determined unless there he present at such hearing and determination not less than three Lords holding, or who have held, some of the following high judicial offices; that is to say, the office of Lord Chancellor of Great Britain or Ireland, or of Judge of one of the Superior Courts of Law or Equity in England, or of Her Majesty's High Court of Justice or Court of Appeal in England, or of the Court of Session in Scotland, or of the Superior Courts of Law or Equity in Ireland.—(The Lord Redesdale.)
  Ordered, That the said Resolution be declared a Standing Order, and that it be entered on the Roll of Standing Orders of this House.
  LORD DENMANsaid, he was entirely opposed to the Resolution of the noble Lord, the effect of which would be, that if only two Law Lords and a third Peer were present ready to make up a quorum, parties, and attornies and counsel, even if anxious to proceed, would be obliged to wait for the appearance of some Judge of Appeal whose qualifications were not yet finally settled.
  THE LORD CHANOELLORsaid, that he did not intend to raise any opposition to the Resolution of his noble Friend. On the contrary, the state of things which his noble Friend proposed to bring about by his Resolution was analogous to that WHICH would be produced under the Bill which had been lately introduced to their Lordships' notice. There was at present no danger of their not having the assistance of the requisite number of Judges, as so many of his noble and learned Friends were able and willing to give their attendance for disposing of the legal Business of the House; but he agreed that it was advisable that provision should be made for the attendance of not less than three official personages on the hearing of appeals.
  LORD HATHERLEYsaid, he would not oppose the Resolution, but wished to point out that the wording of the resolution was too narrow, as it would exclude a Judge of the eminence of the late Lord Kingsdown.
  EARL GRANVILLEwas afraid that such constant changes in the constitution of the appellate tribunal would by no means add to its dignity.
  On Question? resolved in the affirmative.
  Ordered, That the said Resolution be declared a Standing Order, and that it be entered on the Roll of Standing Orders of this House.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Seven o'clock, till To-morrow, halfpast Ten o'clock.