Sitting of 13 July 1876

MINUTES.
NEW MEMBER SWORN—Joseph Chamberlain, esquire, for the Borough of Birmingham
PUBLIC BILLS—Ordered—Prisons (Scotland); Exhausted Parish Lands*; Metropolitan Board of Works (Money)*.
Second Reading—Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Cardiff)* [243].
Select Committee—Bow Street Police Court (Site)* [191], nominated; Arklow Harbour Improvement* [199], nominated; Ardglass Harbour* [200], nominated.
Committee—Elementary Education [155]—R.P.
Committee—Report—Convict Prisons (Returns)* [227]; Medical Act (Qualifications)* [170].
Considered as amended—Sea and River Banks (Lincolnshire)* [213]; Orphan and Deserted Children (Ireland)* [32].
Third Reading—Trade Marks Registration Amendment* [217]; Isle of Man (Officers)* [215]; Turnpike Acts Continuance, &c.* [209], and passed.

INLAND REVENUE DEPARTMENT—EXTRA PAY.—QUESTION.
MR. MACDONALDasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, If his attention has been called to a paragraph headed "Inland Revenue," in the "Civilian" newspaper of the date of the 26th of June 1876, where it is stated that two clerks were allowed to leave the Inland Revenue Office, one for eight months and the other for something less, to serve in the Board of Trade Department or with the Privy Council; whether it be correct, as it is there stated, that during the whole of the time they were with the Board of Trade or the Privy Council they were in receipt of twelve shillings per day, besides their ordinary pay in the Inland Revenue Department; and, if it be customary when an officer may be required in one Department from another, that he or they receive pay for both offices, as if he or they did the work of both?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I have made inquiries into the case, and I believe that the transaction referred to took place about 10 years ago. In 1866 there was a great and sudden outbreak of cattle plague, and, the Veterinary Department of the Privy Council being under-manned, an application was made to the Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue for some assistance. He lent the services of two gentlemen, one of whom, Mr. Wingrove, who has been dead, I believe, for four years, was employed for eight months. His services were very valuable, giving a great deal of time to the work, and often, I believe, working into the night; and at the expiration of the eight months he was rewarded with £240, which was considered a proper remuneration for the amount of work he had done, taking into consideration, of course, the fact that he was an officer in the public service. As to the other gentleman, who was said to have served for "something less" than eight months, he did, in fact, serve for a fortnight, and he received for such service £5.
MR. MACDONALDsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had not answered the latter part of the Question, which he should therefore repeat to-morrow—whether when officers were transferred from one Department to another it was

1391
usual to pay them as if they were doing the work of both?

INLAND REVENUE—ARMORIAL BEARINGS.—QUESTION.
MR. J. G. HUBBARDasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether his attention has been directed to the report of a decision recently given in the Vice Chancellor's Court at Oxford, upon the complaint of an Inland Revenue officer, under which two undergraduates (not paying armorial duty) were fined £5 each for the offence of wearing rowing caps decorated with their college crest; and, whether, if the report prove true, such an administration of our fiscal law may not advantageously be restrained?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I believe that a fine was inflicted upon two gentlemen under these circumstances, and this fine, originally £5, was reduced to 30 s., the tax being 21 s. There is a great deal of difficulty in determining what is and what is not properly chargeable as armorial bearings, and it is held that the fact of their being placed upon the cap does not make them less liable to duty than if they were upon a ring or elsewhere. These matters, however, have in a great measure to be dealt with on discretion, and I am not at all sure that the wearing of College arms in the cap was contemplated when the tax was imposed.

NAVY—ROYAL MARINE LIGHT INFANTRY.—QUESTION.
MR. SAMPSON LLOYD (for Mr. GORST)asked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether a Circular has been addressed to about 700 qualified candidates for the Army Entrance Examination now in progress, inviting them to exchange their chance of success in that examination for a Commission in the Royal Marine Light Infantry; whether the inducements to volunteer for the Marines held out by this Circular are—an immediate appointment, exemption from any probationary course of study, and the postponement of the obligation to pass the Special Army Examination until promotion to the rank of Captain, a period of more than twenty years; how many of the Candidates for Commissions
1392
in the Army have accepted this offer; and, whether the expedient has been prompted by the difficulty of obtaining Officers for the Royal Marines?
MR. HUNT: The hon. and learned Member for Chatham is quite mistaken so far as the first part of his Question is concerned, as no such Circular has been issued by the Admiralty. But they have notified that they offer a certain number of Marine Infantry commissions, in order of merit, to candidates who having been successful in the competition for the announced number of Army vacancies, prefer a commission in the Marines to one in the Line, or who, not having been so successful, are nevertheless, in the opinion of the Civil Service Commissioners, fully qualified for commissions in the Army. The inducement of an immediate appointment and exemption from any probationary course of study is equally held out to officers who are appointed to regiments in India and to West India regiments. Officers joining the Marine Infantry are, however afterwards required to go through what is termed "a garrison course" of study and instruction, and the usual examinations before promotion to the rank of captain. The number of candidates for commissions in the Army who have accepted the offer cannot be ascertained until after the examination is over. At the Army examination last January, when the same course was adapted, 18candidates stated their preference for the Marines over the Line. Of these, four passed with a sufficient number of marks to have received an Army commission, but two, being over age for the Marines, were not appointed. Fifteen commissions were given altogether to candidates obtained in this way. The present arrangement has been adopted in place of the old system of nomination, as offering a wider and better field from which officers may be obtained, the abolition of Purchase in the Army having diminished the number of applicants for Marine commissions.

POST OFFICE—MAILS TO THE UNITED STATES.—QUESTION.
MR. BAXTERasked the Postmaster General, If arrangements have been made for conveying the Mails between this Country and North America; and, if he can state to the House what is the nature of them?
LORD JOHN MANNERS,in reply, said, no arrangements had yet been made for conveying the mails between this country and the United States after the present contracts had expired. It was not intended, as he thought the right hon. Gentleman knew, to enter into any new contracts, but to send the mails by the most efficient vessels sailing to New York. The existing contracts did not terminate until the end of the year—six months hence.

METROPOLIS—THAMES EMBANKMENT—HIGH TIDES.—QUESTION.
MR. LOCKEasked the honourable and gallant Member for Truro, If steps have been or are about to be taken by the Metropolitan Board of Works to prevent a recurrence of the serious losses occasioned to the inhabitants of the borough of South wark by the periodical inundation of the River Thames?
SIR JAMES HOGG: In reply to the Question of the hon. Member, I beg to state that the Metropolitan Board of Works some months ago prepared a Bill to submit to Parliament, with a view, as far as practicable, to prevent inundations of the Thames. The Bill had to be much considered with regard to the general legislation of the country, as well as to the rights and obligations of owners of properties, and extremely opposite views were taken as to the mode of dealing with the question. These difficulties have caused such delay that it would be hopeless to attempt to proceed with any Bill in the present Session; but the Board will still continue to give attention to the subject, and I trust that some effectual means may be found of remedying the evils complained of.

INDIA—THE KIRWEE BOOTY.

  QUESTION.
  THE LORD MAYOR (Mr. Alderman Cotton)asked the Under Secretary of State for India, If he would explain to the House why the Return (recently presented to Parliament, No. 213,) of property owned by the Ex-Chiefs of Kirwee is limited in title and contents to the undisputed and admittedly captured property, instead of supplying a full inventory, in compliance with the express terms of the Order of the House
  1394
  of Commons dated 24th July 1874, of the proceeds of all movable property of those Princes acquired by the local Government; why several items which are included in the earlier inventories of the Viceroy of India, consisting of debts, Nos. 181 and 182, due by the East India Company (Parliamentary Return, No. 298, of Session 1869, page 15), and payments by private debtors and proceeds of jewels (ibid, pages 48 and 49) are omitted in the account of the enemy's assets; when this Return, which was acknowledged by the Under Secretary of State for India to be incomplete, will be made complete so as to satisfy the whole requirements of the Parliamentary Order; and, whether there is any objection to produce Copies of all Correspondence subsequently to the 1st July 1875 to the present date on the subject of the Kirwee Booty, now on record at the India Office, and not included in any other Parliamentary Return?
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: The Return alluded to gives all the information required by the Order of the House of the 24th of June, 1871, and if my right hon. Friend will read from pages 48 to 52 of the Return he will there find reasons stated why the items enumerated by him are not comprised by the terms of the present Return. I never stated this Return to be incomplete. In March, 1875, in reply to a Question, I said we had not then received information necessary to fulfil the Order of this Return. In May, 1876, the Return was laid upon the Table of the House; and, taken with other previous Returns, it gives the fullest and most complete information concerning the whole of the property owned by the ex-Chiefs of Kirwee. I have no objection to give any Correspondence not published between the Secretary of State and the prize agents.

  PRISONS BILL—ROMAN CATHOLIC CHAPLAINS.—QUESTION.
  MR. WHALLEYasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, with reference to his statement to a deputation that, in the event of the Prisons Bill being passed, the appointment of Chaplains cannot be left to the visiting justices or the magistrates, Whether he has received any communication as to the conduct of Roman Catholic chap-

  1395
  lains in Government or other prisons affecting the discipline thereof and subscription to the rules prescribed for and accepted by Presbyterian or Anglican chaplains; and, if so, whether he will lay the same upon the Table of the House?
  MR. ASSHETON CROSS: I thought the best way to obtain information on the subject of the hon. Gentleman's Question would be to send a copy of it to Colonel Du Cane, Director of Convict Prisons, and his answer is that no such communication, to his knowledge, has been received with regard to metropolitan prisons. With respect to county and borough prisons, I thought the best way would be to send the hon. Member's Question to the able head of the Prisons department at the Home Office, and he says—
  "A search through the register would be attended with so much difficulty and loss of time that it has not been attempted; but, to the best of my knowledge, no such communication relative to the conduct of Roman Catholic prison chaplains, as the hon. Member refers to, has been received at the Home Office."

POST OFFICE—HOUSE OF COMMONS.

  QUESTION.
  SIR HENRY PEEKasked the Postmaster General, Whether, in view of the fact that a large proportion of Members' correspondence is on the public service in connection with their constituencies, he will consider whether the penny extra payable on letters handed in between 7 and 7·30 p.m. to go from the House of Commons Post Office by the same night's mails might not be discontinued; and, whether he can inform the House how much the extra pence amount to per Session?
  LORD JOHN MANNERS: The extra penny payable on letters between 7 and 7·30 p. m. is not intended for revenue purposes, but to secure the posting of letters in proper time for transmission by the mails. If there were no such extra charge the great bulk of the letters would be posted close upon half-past 7, and then it would be hardly possible to despatch the mails from St. Martin's-le-Grand in proper time. As to the last part of the Question, no account was taken of the number of extra-pence letters.

EDUCATION—GOVERNMENT INSPECTORS AND SECONDARY SCHOOLS.

  QUESTION.
  DR. CAMERONasked the Vice President of the Council, Whether the Education Department permits Government Inspectors of Schools to undertake for fees the examination of secondary schools, public or private, unconnected with their districts?
  VISCOUNT SANDON: The Department does not object to a Government Inspector of Schools undertaking for fees the examination of secondary schools, public or private, unconnected with his district, provided that such examinations are conducted by the Inspector in his private capacity, and do not interfere with or impede his official duties.

  ARMY (INDIA)—ROMAN CATHOLIC CHAPLAINS.—QUESTION.
  MR. WHALLEYasked the Under Secretary of State for India, with reference to increased pay of Roman Catholic Chaplains in the Indian Army, Whether it is not the fact that many of them are not English, and cannot even speak English; whether the Duke of Argyll has pointed out the broad distinction between the position of the Clergy of the Churches of England and Scotland and of the Priests of the Church of Rome in India, the former being bound to obey the orders of the Government, and the latter only the orders of their spiritual superiors; and, whether any provision has been made in conceding an increase in pay of £8,570 a-year for insuring discipline and loyalty on the part of Roman Catholic Chaplains?
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTON: I cannot state with absolute certainty whether all the chaplains employed in the Indian Army are Englishmen or not. My impression is that a certain number of them are not, and that some of them speak English badly, or not at all. The quotation from the letter of the Duke of Argyll is correct. The increase to these chaplains' pay was made in consequence of their satisfactory conduct in the past, and the Indian Government have no reason for believing that they will behave differently in the future.

LOCAL TAXATION—QUEENBOROUGH.

  QUESTION.
  GENERAL SIR GEORGE BALFOURasked the President of the Local Government Board, To explain the cause of the omission from the returns of local taxation of the accounts of Queenborough, and, now that the Queenborough Harbour Bill has passed, whether arrear accounts will be called for; and, whether steps will be taken to enforce the rendering of the accounts in the future, and to subject the transactions relating to the rates, taxes, and expenses of Queenborough, including the additions under the new Harbour Bill, to a proper audit?
  MR. SCLATER-BOOTH: Queenborough is one of the old chartered corporations which did not come under the Municipal Reform Act. It was not required to keep annual accounts of local taxation. Under the Harbour Bill powers are given to levy certain dues and tolls, of which it will be necessary to render an annual account, as well as of the building fund. The Local Government Board has no power to call for statements of arrear accounts.

NAVY—CAPTAIN SULIVAN.

  QUESTION.
  MR. ANDERSONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, If he has made inquiry into the statement of Captain Sulivan that Mr. Penny was in private communication with a Lord of the Admiralty on the subject of the dispute with his Captain; if a communication on such a subject is not irregular sent otherwise than through his commanding officer, and if these letters were received previous to the decision being given; if it be true that Captain Sulivan's removal from his ship has entailed, in addition to other punishment, a loss of increased half-pay, as stated in "Broad Arrow" of 8th July; and, whether anything will now be done in deference to the large minority which supported the Motion of the honourable Member for Poole on Tuesday last? The hon. Member said he would not ask the right hon. Gentleman to commit himself on the last branch of the Question without consideration.
  MR. HUNT: I have made inquiry, and find that two letters were addressed
  1398
  to Admiral Hornby by Mr. Penny. I saw them to-day for the first time, in consequence of the Question of the hon. Gentleman. The first was dated February 11, 1875, about five months before the Court of Inquiry. It had reference to the troubles prevailing on board the London, and contained, only very much shorter, pretty much the same statements as those in the official letter from Mr. Penny. It would have been better if Mr. Penny had not written that letter under the circumstances. But private letters are constantly passing between officers on service and members of the Board of Admiralty, and it is very desirable that that should be so. Therefore, it is difficult to draw exactly the line where letters should be written and where they should not. The other letter was written subsequently to his receiving notice that he was to be superseded. Admiral Hornby tells me that if the hon. Member wishes to see the two letters he will be most happy to show them to him if he will call at the Admiralty. With regard to the third part of the Question, if Captain Sulivan had remained his full time in command of the London he would, at the expiration of that time, have been entitled to a higher half-pay than that to which he is now entitled.

INDIAN MUSEUM IN LONDON.

  QUESTION.
  MR. FAWCETTasked the Under Secretary of State for India, Whether the propriety of charging the revenues of India with either the whole or a part of the cost of erecting and maintaining a museum in London has been considered by the Secretary of State for India in Council; and, if any decision has been arrived at, whether there would be any objection to produce it, with the opinions (if any) recorded by Members of Council?
  LORD GEORGE HAMILTO: The question of erecting or maintaining a Museum in London from the revenues of India has not been by itself considered. Two years ago the want of space at the India Office forced us to consider how we could best house the Library and Museum, and the action of the Indian Council upon the matter is recorded; and if the hon. Gentleman considers it worth publication, I have no

  1399
  objection to give it, together with the opinions of Members of Council.

  CHURCH BODIES (GIBRALTAR)—THE ORDINANCES.—QUESTION.
  MR. DILLWYNasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether the Governor of Gibraltar has been instructed to withdraw the Ordinances for creating Anglican and Roman Catholic Church Bodies in that Colony, in accordance with the pledge given at the early part of the Session; and whether, if so, he will lay the Despatch giving him such instruction on the Table of the House?
  MR. J. LOWTHER,in reply, said, it would not be possible to produce the Despatch to which reference was made, for this reason—that no such Despatch had been written. Personal communications, however, had taken place between the Secretary of State and Lord Napier of Magdala, and it was fully understood that the ordinance to which reference was made would not be persevered with.

ELEMENTARY EDUCATION BILL. [BILL 155.]
(Viscount Sandon, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Assheton Cross.)
ELEMENTARY EDUCATION BILL. [BILL 155.]

  COMMITTEE. [Progress 11th July.]
  Bill considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Clause 6 (Existing local authorities to have like powers with school boards of enforcing by bye-law attendance of children).
  MR. MUNDELLAmoved, in page 2, line 21, to leave out "if it is a borough the council," and insert "the local authority."
  LORD FRANCIS HERVEYpointed out that the words "local authority" were already used to describe the authority which should put the Act in force. He had an Amendment on the Paper by which, it was proposed, in urban districts other than boroughs, to give the power to the urban authority.
  MR. MUNDELLAsaid, he would withdraw his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD FRANCIS HERVEY: then moved, in page 2, line 21, after "coun-
  1400
  cil," to insert "and if it is an urban district other than a borough, the urban authority."
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, the Government had given much consideration to the question, which was not so simple as it seemed, except where the areas of civil parishes were conterminous with the areas of urban sanitary authorities; but if the matter were allowed to stand over until the Report, he would introduce a clause or an Amendment which would substantially carry out what appeared to be the general wish of the Committee.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. KNOWLESsaid, he would refrain from repeating the considerations he had already urged as to the necessity of getting children to school everywhere; but to carry out the view he had put Amendments on the Paper, the effect of which would be to make it obligatory upon, instead of optional with, the local authorities to enforce compulsion. He moved, in page 2, line 21, after "council," to leave out "may, if they think fit," and insert "shall." The hon. Member was particular to press on the Committee that, while his object was to make it imperative on Town Councils and Local Boards to enforce compulsion, Guardians would still require to be set in motion by requisition, as proposed by the clause.
  Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 21, to leave out the words "may, if they think fit."—(Mr. Knowles.)
  VISCOUNT SANDONremarked that this was a large change to propose, because it made it obligatory upon the Town Councils and Boards of Guardians to make compulsory bye-laws.
  MR. KNOWLES: Only when they are requested to do so. The words "on the requisition of the parish" would remain in the clause.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERhoped that the Committee would consider the exact wording of the clause with regard to Town Councils before they dealt with the parishes.
  THE CHAIRMANsaid, that the hon. Member for Wigan could not at present propose to insert the word "shall," and his Amendment, therefore, was to leave out the words "if they think fit."
  MR. W. E. FORSTERobserved that the Amendment raised three questions—first, whether it was obligatory on the Town Councils to have bye-laws; secondly, whether it was obligatory upon the Guardians to have bye-laws on the requisition of the parish; and, thirdly, whether it was obligatory on the Guardians to have bye-laws without the requisition of the parish, and therefore it was better to consider the Amendment on the separate grounds to which he had referred.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, it was the intention and wish of the Government to follow exactly the procedure and arrangements of the Act of 1870. If the Town Councils asked for compulsory bye-laws they might have them, but they were not obliged to have them. The Government wished to follow the same analogy with regard to parishes which could only have a school board by a popular vote. Thus, if either Town Councils or Boards of Guardians wished to have compulsory bye-laws, they might have them, but need not have them unless they so desired. It was the intention of the Government to adhere to that arrangement, and to leave it to the local authorities to decide whether they would or would not have compulsory bye-laws.
  MR. A. BROWNhoped that the Amendment would be adopted.
  MR. ONSLOWhoped that the Government would abide by the clause, because if the Amendment were adopted we should have universal school boards all over the country.
  MR. HAMONDsaid, that while he had last Session moved the rejection of Mr. Dixon's Bill for compulsory school boards and compulsory attendance of children at school because he thought Parliament had no right to inflict on the ratepayers the establishment of school boards where there was no deficiency of school accommodation, yet he was quite willing to support a fair scheme by which the attendance of children at school should be secured in a greater ratio than had been secured under the Act of 1870. There was school accommodation for 3,146,000 children, whereas sufficient was required for 4,500,000. Again, the register contained the names of 2,744,000, with an average attendance of 1,837,000 children, which was very unsatisfactory. He was quite in favour of some power
  1402
  being given to the local authorities where no school boards existed. By a previous clause it had been enacted that no children between the ages of 5 and 10 should go to work. What was to become of these children if their parents neglected to send them to school? He considered it most important that some compulsory powers should be given to the local authorities to insist on the children being educated, and therefore he had much pleasure in supporting the Amendment of the hon. Member for Wigan.
  MR. FAWCETTthought it a significant circumstance that this Amendment should have been moved by an hon. Member on the Conservative side and supported by two Members of the same Party. The hon. Member for Guildford (Mr. Onslow) had endeavoured to obscure the question by introducing the bugbear of universal school boards; but the Amendment would have the effect of preventing such a system from coming into operation. The only argument of any weight which had been used against the Amendment was that it went further than the Education Act of 1870, which only established permissive compulsion; but the country had made progress on that question since 1870, and if they were not now to advance beyond the provision of that Act, why was the present Bill brought in at all? The Amendment under discussion was rendered all the more necessary by the Amendment which the Vice President of the Council had accepted the other day on the suggestion of the noble Lord (Lord Frederick Cavendish) relating to half-time. If stringent precautions were adopted against children between the ages of 5 and 10 being sent to work, it was most essential, in the interests of children, that equally effectual security should be taken for getting them between those same ages into the schools, otherwise they might be neither learning nor working, but only running about the streets. No man possessed more practical knowledge on the subject than the hon. Member for Wigan (Mr. Knowles), who came to that House fresh from his labours on the Factory Commission; and it was therefore to be hoped that hon. Gentlemen opposite would pay some deference to his opinion.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, he had always frankly acknowledged that there

  1403
  was much to be urged by ton. Gentlemen opposite in favour of a system of universal bye-laws, but he had also said that neither he nor the Government could support them, but took a totally different view. This matter was fully argued out on the proposition of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Mundella), the question then before the House being whether the recommendations of the Factory Commissioners for the establishment of universal bye-laws should be carried out or not. The hon. Member for Wigan made an able speech on that occasion, and voted against the Government. [Mr. KNOWLES: I did not vote.] He was glad the hon. Member had shown his fidelity to his Party. ["Oh, oh!"] He thought there was nothing to be ashamed of. At all events the question was decided by a very large majority, and he objected to re-opening it. The hon. Member for Newcastle (Mr. Hamond)said that under this Bill children would be kept away from work till the age of 10, but it contained no provision which required their attendance at school. The hon. Member had overlooked Clause 7. If the local authority did their duty, and if the Education Department did their duty—which he hoped would not be disputed—no child of the age of 5 years or upwards could be habitually absent from an elementary school.
  LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsaid, this Amendment was not exactly the same as that of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Mundella). He (Lord Frederick Cavendish) supported it on the ground that if universal bye-laws were not established great injustice and inequality would be the result in various parts of the country. Thus, where school boards existed and bye-laws were in force, an employer of labour could obtain the labour of children under the half-time system. In a neighbouring parish where there were no bye-laws, children could not be employed half-time. Was it just that such a difference should exist in two neighbouring parishes with reference to the labour of children?
  MR. RITCHIEsaid, he had read the Reports of Her Majesty's Inspectors, and found that a large majority of them were agreed that direct compulsion was necessary. It would be a bad thing to have compulsion in one district and not in another. He thought that direct and
  1404
  indirect compulsion might work well together. The noble Lord said that if he accepted the Amendment it would leave the law in a curious state; but would it not be easy to insert a clause assimilating the Town Council to the local authorities?
  MR. MUNDELLAhoped the noble Lord would see his way to the acceptance of this Amendment, which differed from that proposed by himself. The Amendment which he moved was that the whole of the recommendation of the Commissioners should be adopted. If the employers of labour on the other side of the House did not support the Amendment, he believed the time would come when they would regret it. The Bill as it stood was permissive for education, prohibitory for employment, and by-and-by it would be found that, owing to the negligence of their parents, thousands of children who ought to begin work would not possess the necessary certificates, and the farmers and millowners who employed them would be fined for doing so. He maintained that this would fall harder upon the farmers than upon anybody else. Why should Parliament go the roundabout way of requiring the local authorities to put these principles into force? It was the constituencies legislating for Parliament, instead of Parliament legislating for the constituencies. The supporters of the Amendment had a large majority of the clergy with them in this matter; whilst one half of the noble Lord's own party were ready to vote against him.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he was rather an "old-fashioned person," but he remembered when hon. Members opposite had a deep respect for parental authority, and when it was unusual for them to deprecate an appeal to the opinion of the constituencies. All this was changed. The hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Mundella) wanted the Committee to pass an absolute law to shield him from his constituents, lest he should be reproached for favouring an arbitrary law. He (Mr. Newdegate) rejoiced that the noble Lord proposed to leave the discretion in the hands of the local authorities. He himself was not in favour of forcing children into schools of which the parents disapproved.
  SIR JOHN LUBBOCK: regarded the Amendment as merely an embodiment

  1405
  of the principles of the clause of which the noble Lord had given Notice. It was useless to pass the Bill at all unless some steps were taken to render it effective. If one district left its children uneducated, the whole country would be the sufferers.
  MR. BIRLEYsaid, he did not think the Amendment was of any material importance, since by the subsequent clauses they provided for the compulsory education of children between 5 and 10. He would remind the Committee that the House, by a very large majority, had decided in favour of indirect as opposed to direct compulsion.
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, that the basis of the arguments adduced in support of the Amendment was that the whole country was unanimously in favour of direct compulsion. If that were so, the local authorities who might be taken to reflect the public opinion of their districts would have ample power under this Bill to enforce compulsion. All that the Bill said was that the local authorities should not be compelled to enforce compulsion in places where it was neither required nor desired. It was in accordance with the spirit of English law to leave much to local self-government, and he protested against this attempt to force the country to adopt one uniform cast-iron mould in the education of its children. The noble Viscount who had charge of the Bill had intimated that he would propose a clause that it was the duty of every parent to send his children to school, and undoubtedly it was; and if he failed to do so, there were pains and penalties to punish him: but he considered the duty should not be delegated to Town Councils to compel parents to do so. If the penalties failed to compel the parent to send his child to school, then the State should say—"We will take the child and send him to an industrial school." On the whole, he preferred the proposal of the noble Lord to the Amendment which had been moved, because the only logical conclusion that could follow upon the adoption of the Amendment was the sweeping away altogether of direct compulsion.
  COLONEL RUGGLES-BRISEhoped that the noble Viscount would accede to the Amendment, and thought it unnecessary that any wish should be expressed by the ratepayers on the subject. With
  1406
  regard to Poor Law Guardians, they were elected annually, and if they failed to do their duty, it was in the power of the ratepayers not to re-elect them.
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: observed, that he thought every hon. Member who had considered the question would take the same view as the hon. and gallant Member who had just spoken. He (Mr. Forster) believed it would be found by all who had had to deal with the practical work of education—no matter whatever might have been their abstract opinions as to compulsion up to the present time—that if the Bill was to pass, as the noble Lord desired it to pass, that it would turn out vastly more convenient and more to the comfort of the local authorities that this matter should be settled by Parliament—that Parliament should lay down the rule that there should be in every district bye-laws in regard to compulsory attendance. Those were matters deserving the consideration of the Committee. He did not know that local authorities would be the best to commit the power to. Undoubtedly it was true that there might be a feeling in the country in favour of bye-laws; but there were districts in the country where the inhabitants might not be in favour of bye-laws. As the Bill stood at that moment, no child above 10 years of age could work unless in some employment under the Factory Act. He thought too much might be exacted unless they had bye-laws, and that the Bill might operate very unfairly. He could not help thinking that if his noble Friend had, in framing the Bill, put himself in communication with those hon. Members on both sides of the House who had given much attention to the subject of education, he would have derived much advantage from their opinions. He considered it would be far better if the noble Lord had so framed the Bill that children would be eligible for employment. He wished it to be borne in mind that in 1870 the Government did not establish, and did not intend to establish, the principle of permissive compulsion. What they did was to establish experimental compulsion. They had tried the experiment, and it had answered. With regard to Scotland, they had not experimental but absolute compulsion. He found that before the Act was passed the average attendance at the schools was

  1407
  40,000, and that the increased average attendance since the passing of the Act was 80,000.In some large towns throughout the country they had school boards, but in Preston they had not. With regard to the average attendance of children in the National Schools in Preston, it was under 5,000, while there appeared on the roll 14,000. Now that difference was because the Preston National Schools had no bye-laws. If the passing of these bye-laws depended upon some merely temporary feeling on the part of the Guardians or other local authorities, and the enforcement was left to capricious and fitful temper, the whole thing would become a sham, and it would be still more unfair to parishes in which school boards existed and were in earnest in doing the work they were appointed to do. The only way to avoid this would be to require the enactment of bye-laws everywhere: but the noble Lord might say that that was provided for by Clause 7, and need not be introduced into this clause. He thought the noble Lord would put too much strain on Clause 7. His (Mr. W. E. Forster's) objection to that provision was that it would lay down a hard-and-fast line as applicable to the entire country. He hoped that the Amendment would be accepted by the Government as the best substitute for that direct compulsion which was so needful.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, that the question before the Committee was whether the principle of universal compulsion should be adopted. While admitting that there was a great deal to be said on both sides, he could not but think that the adoption of universal bye-laws would be a mistake. The Government started from this position—they did not think that the principle of direct compulsion would be a good thing in itself. No doubt a great evil was to be met, but to say to every poor man that his children were, under all circumstances, to attend school every day would be a bad and undesirable thing. The presumption adopted was that if the prudent, thoughtful, industrious parent knew that the temptation of his children's earnings under 10 years of age was removed from him, they would recognize their duty, and the consequence would be an avoidance of the evil of putting the whole of the working classes of the country under the bonds of direct compulsion.
  MR. KNOWLESsaid, before they divided he was anxious to explain the simple meaning of his Amendment. Wherever he had gone as a Commissioner he had found among all classes a feeling that, though direct compulsion might be undesirable, there must in some shape be compulsion, and the object of his Amendment was to compel Town Councils and Board of Guardians to adopt bye-laws when they were requested to do so by the ratepayers, whom they represented.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 206; Noes 165: Majority 41.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERmoved the omission of the words "on the requisition of the parish," as he considered that the Guardians ought to be allowed to make compulsory bye-laws, if they should think fit, in the same manner as the Town Councils would be entitled to do.
  MR. A. MILLSthought that each district should be left to exercise its own freedom in framing compulsory bye-laws. If hon. Members knew how difficult it was to carry out compulsory rules they would not be so eager to enforce them. He should oppose the Amendment.
  MR. MUNDELLAsaid, that if these words were not omitted the local authorities would be prevented from framing bye-laws.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. MUNDELLAmoved, in page 2, line 23, to leave out "but not otherwise," which would allow the Guardians to frame bye-laws without first receiving a requisition from the inhabitants of the district.
  Amendment proposed, in page 2 line 23, to leave out the words "but not otherwise."—(Mr. Mundella.)
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, that the Guardians should be allowed to make bye-laws without receiving a requisition.
  VISCOUST SANDONsaid, the Government must adhere to the words, as they desired that the community, or people of any school district, should have the power of saying whether there should be compulsion or not.
  LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISHsupported a system of compulsory bye-laws as best calculated to carry out the objects of the Bill.
  MR. J. G. TALBOTcould not understand why, when a parish was doing its duty, it should not be let alone.
  SIR THOMAS ACLANDcontended that the majority of the Boards of Guardians should be able to decide whether there should be compulsion or not in all the parishes which they represented, or in some parishes there would be compulsion and in some not.
  MR. HAMONDwas sorry that the noble Lord had refused to leave out these words, as by so doing he would be following the lines of the Act of 1870.
  LORD ROBERT MONTAGUsaid, that Town Councils were elected by the inhabitants of the towns while the Guardians were elected by the ratepayers of parishes spread over a large area.
  MR. GREGORYpointed out that the inhabitants of a school district ought to have the power of saying whether there should be compulsion or not.
  MR. EVANSremarked that Town Councils were elected by wards, which was similar to Guardians being elected by parishes.
  MR. LYON PLAYFAIRsaid, the Bill contained compulsory clauses, and he should therefore support the Amendment.
  MR. MUNDELLApointed out that the more compulsory bye-laws were needed the less likelihood was there of a requisition for them being forthcoming from the parish. This would especially be the case in some of the "God-forsaken" parishes in the agricultural and mining districts.
  MR. HAYTERsaid, he could not understand why the elected authorities should have to refer back to the electors one of the most important questions on which it was their duty to decide.
  VISCOUNT SANDONrepeated that his opposition to the Amendment was because it was based upon the principle of direct compulsion, which in this particular case he did not consider necessary.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 125; Noes 86: Majority 39.
  MR. SANDFORDmoved, in page 2, line 26, at end of clause, to add—
  "Provided that any bye-law made under this section shall not apply to any child whose parent has delivered to the clerk of the local authority an objection in writing signed by such parent, and objecting to the compulsory attendance at school of such child."
  According to the Bill, as it stood, the children of Nonconformists and Roman Catholics would be compelled to attend the schools. He should be told that there was the Conscience Clause, under which there was to be no direct religious teaching; but could they not raise religious questions by historical and other subjects? How would a member of the Church of England like his child to be for eight years under the tuition of a Nonconformist teacher? And how, then, could they expect a Nonconformist or a Roman Catholic to submit his child to a system of religious instruction, with which he totally disagreed? He believed that if the Bill passed in its present form it would raise a storm of religious fervour, which would agitate the whole country from one end to another, and it was for that reason he offered his Amendment in a spirit of conciliation.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, he had no doubt the hon. Gentleman was perfectly consistent in proposing his Amendment, but he must oppose it, because, if adopted, it would entirely neutralize the operations of the bye-laws; for they would have parents—careless and neglectful parents—starting up in all directions to take advantage of the proposed exemption.
  SIR HENRY HAVELOCKsupported the Amendment, and said, he hoped it would be pressed.
  Amendment negatived.
  SIR HENRY HAVELOCKsaid, that under the Bill, the Nonconformist agricultural labourer would have no alternative but to send his children to a Church school, and there would be no end of religious strife. To meet that objection he moved, in page 2, after line 26, to add—
  "Provided, That no bye-law made under this section shall compel any child to attend at any school with regard to which an objection, on grounds of conscience, made in writing and signed by the parent of such child, has been lodged with the clerk of the local authorities."
  THE O'CONOR DONmoved, after the word "section" in the Amendment, to insert "or any section of The Elementary Education Act, 1870,"so that the provision should apply equally to school-board schools. He believed that many persons had as strong an objection to sending their children where no religion was taught as others had to sending their children to the schools of a different religious denomination, and unless the addition which he proposed were made to the Amendment it would not meet the objections of the former persons.
  MR. PEASEthought all these Amendments were uncalled for, as sufficient security had been taken that no one's principles should be outraged in sending a child to an elementary school.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPEstrongly pressed the logical necessity that the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland should accept the Amendment of the hon. Member for Roscommon as the necessary complement of his proposals. The argument was unanswerable, that if the conscientious scruples of those who feared to be entangled in the teaching of some fixed principles of belief with which they disagreed, ought to be respected, a fortiori, the scruples should be respected of those who feared the influence of no belief at all. For his own part, little enamoured as he was abstractedly of Conscience Clauses, he was able, as society was constituted, heartily to accept the Conscience Clause as on the whole a workable compromise, and the best for all sides. He would vote for the hon. Member for Roscommon's words, in order to place the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland's scheme before the House in a complete shape, but when it came to the main question he would have to vote against the whole Amendment.
  MR. RICHARDsupported the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland. A parent ought to have the power of withdrawing his child from a school in which religion was taught contrary to his conscientious opinions and belief. The Amendment ought to be inserted as a protection of the rights of others.
  VISCOUNT SANDONtrusted that the Committee would not accede to the Amendment of the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland, which would be absolutely ruinous to the cause of
  1412
  education, and do a serious injury to the morals of the people. It would enable a parent to allege conscientious objections, though he might entertain none, in order to get his child exempted from attendance at school. Such a proposal could not be seriously entertained by any Assembly, however zealous it might be to protect the rights of conscience.
  SIR HENRY HAVELOCKsaid, he would accept the Amendments of the hon. Member for Roscommon and incorporate them in his Amendment, and then take the sense of the Committee upon the amended Amendment. He contended that it was absurd to suppose that parents would withdraw their children from school on frivolous grounds.
  MR. BULWERsaid, he objected to the consciences of Nonconformists alone being considered in this matter. If the Amendment was agreed to, how, he asked, would the children in districts where only one school existed be educated? It not unfrequently happened, as he knew, that an ill-conditioned fellow would, to "spite the parson," as he called it, absent himself from the village church. This Amendment would enable such a man still further to indulge his ignorant spite, and, pleading conscience, to withdraw his children not only from the church, but from the school. No parent ought to have such an excuse put into his mouth by Act of Parliament for neglecting to educate his children.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERsaid, the parents of children of conscientious Dissenters had every security in the Conscience Clause. They would not take advantage of the proposed Amendment; advantage would be taken by those only who had no consciences at all. The Bill would become a dead letter if a man when summoned before the magistrates for neglecting to send his child to school could evade the law by the production of a document drawn up by some acute person.
  VISCOUNT SANDON: suggested that the hon. and gallant Member for Sunderland (Sir Henry Havelock) should accept the Amendment upon his Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Roscommon (the O'Conor Don), and then take the division upon the two together.
  Question put,
  "That the words 'Provided, That no bye-law made under this section or any section of 'The

  1413
  Elementary Education Act, 1870,' shall compel any child to attend at any school, whether board school or otherwise, with regard to which an objection, on grounds of conscience, made in writing and signed by the parent of such child, has been lodged with the secretary of the School Board or the clerk of the local authorities,'—(Sir Henry Havelock,)—be added at the end of the Clause."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 25; Noes 128: Majority 103.
  Clause agreed to.
  Clause 7 (Provision as to order of court for attendance at school of child continuously and habitually neglected by parent or habitually wandering and consorting with criminals or disorderly persons).
  VISCOUNT SANDONmoved, in page 2, line 30, to leave out "continuously and," which had reference to the neglect of the parent. He retained the word "habitually," which immediately followed, because it was deemed very important to make the clause strong in its application to the parent who habitually neglected to provide elementary instruction for a child above the age of five years, who under the Act would be prohibited from being taken into employment—such instruction as would enable the child to obtain a certificate.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. A. BROWNmoved the omission of the word "habitually," to which the noble Lord the Vice President had just referred; because if it were retained it would open the door to greater latitude than ought to be allowed.
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICEconsidered that the clause as it now stood would only give the magistrate the power to convict in cases where there ought to be a conviction, and on that ground he should vote against the Amendment.
  SIR JOHN LUBBOCKconsidered the clause might be so modified as not to be objectionable, and yet sufficiently stringent.
  VISCOUNT SANDONaffirmed that the Government attached the greatest possible importance to the retention of the words, and refused to again take up the time of the Committee in arguing the question at length.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERthought the retention of "habitually" would cause very great difficulty to the magistrates in carrying the clause into effect.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, that in all these cases considerable licence must be allowed to the magistrates, and cited as an analogous case the use of the word "grossly" in the Scotch Education Act.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERpointed out that in the Scotch Act the meaning of the word "grossly" was clearly defined. He asked the noble Lord fairly to consider the point which had been raised before a future stage of the Bill.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, he could not hold out any hope that the Government would re-consider the question of retaining this word.
  LORD EDMOND FITZMAURICEwas in favour of leaving the word in the clause, as otherwise an offence would be created where no real offence had been committed.
  SIR JOHN LUBBOCKwas of opinion that the word ought to be struck out.
  MR. GORSTobserved, that the word "habitually" was not now in Acts of Parliament. What amount of neglect constituted habitual neglect would require to be decided by the magistrate.
  LORD FRANCIS HERVEYsupported the Amendment, on the ground that children should be sent to school before the neglect became habitual.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERhoped that his hon. Friend would not divide the Committee on the Amendment.
  Amendment negatived.
  MR. BIRLEY (for Mr. Hard Castle): moved, in sub-section 2, page 2, line 37, after "authority," to leave out—
  "After due warning to the parents of such child to complain to a court of summary jurisdiction, and such court may."
  VISCOUNT SANDONobjected to the Amendment, on the ground that the matter might be left to the discretion of the magistrate.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. BRISTOWEmoved, in page 2, line 39, to leave out "may, if it think fit," and insert, "shall, if satisfied of the truth of such complaint." The Amendment would, in his opinion, be a very important one, and would operate satisfactorily at petty sessions.
  VISCOUNT SANDON: thought the Amendment unobjectionable, and agreed to it.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. BRISTOWEmoved, in page 2, line 40, to leave out "in such regular manner as is specified in the order." He explained that many difficulties might arise as the clause appeared in the Bill, as the Court of Summary Jurisdiction would have power to direct in what method the child should attend school.
  VISCOUNT SANDONagreed that the Amendment would be an improvement to the clause.
  Amendment agreed to.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERmoved, in page 3, line 2, after "expedient," to add—
  "Such order shall contain the provision in the Elementary Education Act, section seven, sub-section one, that the child is not required to attend any religious observance or any instruction in religious subjects, or to attend school on any day exclusively set apart for religious observances by the religious body to which his parent belongs."
  MR. J. G. HUBBARDhoped the Amendment would not be pressed; it would add a new difficulty to those already existing.
  MR. GORSTsaid, the Amendment was quite unnecessary. The whole question was covered by the Conscience Clause.
  SIR HENRY HAVELOCKsaid, the Amendment was not required for the protection of Nonconformist children, but of those neglected children of the Church of England whom it was proposed to catch by the drag-net of this Bill.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, in dealing with these, who were admittedly the lowest and the most degraded of the population, they must be very careful that they did not do anything to put the State apparently in hostility to religious education. It was an Amendment the Government could never accept. They had undertaken that any infringement of the Conscience Clause should be looked after by the local authority; but they could not do this, which really would look to these poor people as if the State was in antagonism to religious education. He thought that hon. Members opposite, who must be in favour of religious education of some kind, would hardly support the Amendment.
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: maintained that Parliament ought, as far as pos-
  1416
  sible, to let people know exactly what they ought to do.
  MR. W. H. SMITHreminded the right hon. Gentleman that this was a case in which they were dealing with children, with reference to whom opportunities of education were habitually neglected.
  Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 116; Noes 189: Majority 73.
  MR. J. COWENmoved, in page 3, after line 3, to insert—
  "Provided, That no member of the local authority shall sit in the court of summary jurisdiction at the hearing of such complaint."
  He said that he thought it would be very improper that a member of the body which had control over school matters should sit as a justice to hear a complaint under the Education Act.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, that the Law Officers informed him that the rule at Common Law was that this should not be done, therefore no enactment upon the subject was wanted.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  LORD FREDERICK CAVENDISH,in reference to the exemptions in the clause, asked what was to be done with the children living on canal boats between the ages of 3 and 14, and he suggested that the reason that there was not within two miles, &c., from the residence of such child any public elementary school open which the child could attend, should not apply to children living on canal objects. His object in mentioning it was to direct the attention of the noble Lord to their condition.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, he would consider the suggestion, and see if anything could be done on the Report.
  MR. WAITmoved, in page 3, line 9, to leave out from "necessary," to end of Clause, and insert "or a necessity that shall appear to the court absolutely unavoidable." If the clause were left unaltered, parents would have additional opportunities of evading the obligation of sending their children to school.
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: thought that "necessary domestic employment" ought not to be accepted as an excuse for the non-attendance of a child at school, and

  1417
  he trusted, therefore, that those words would be struck out of the clause.
  MR. BRISTOWEsaid, it would be very inconvenient to allow excuses different from those contained in the Act of 1870.
  MR. RODWELLwas in favour of maintaining the clause as it stood, because everybody acquainted with cottage life must know that there were many cases where children were engaged in "necessary domestic employment," although they would not come within the scope of the Amendment of the hon. Member for Gloucester.
  MR. MACDONALDhoped the noble Lord would consent to the Amendment.
  MR. MARK STEWARTobjected to the insertion of the words, as they would encourage parents to invent all kinds of excuses to evade the child's attendance at school.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. HEYGATEmoved, in page 3, line 9, to leave out from "necessary domestic" to end, and insert—"or any other cause which in the opinion of the local authority is sufficient."
  MR. BULWERconsidered that great care should be exercised in the wording of the clause.
  VISCOUNT SANDONthought there was no doubt that it would be running a risk if the words "necessary domestic employment" were retained in the clause. He thought it would be better to cut out those words. If the Amendment were withdrawn, he should be glad if the hon. and learned Member for Ipswich (Mr. Bulwer) would confer with him on the amended wording of the clause.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERhoped the hon. Member (Mr. Heygate) would not persist in his Amendment.
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: expressed his thanks to the Government for the change they had made in this clause, and hoped it would be a great step in the progress of education.
  On Question, "That the clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill?"
  MR. CLARE READasked the noble Lord the Vice President of the Council whether it was the fact that if a justice
  1418
  was a member of the School Attendance Committee, he could not be a member of the Court before which the child was brought? If that were so, it would be very detrimental in the country, because it would almost invariably happen that the best and most frequent attendants at the Bench were those justices who would be members of the School Attendance Committee.
  VISCOUNT SANDONwould like further to consult the legal Advisers of the Government on that point; but he understood that the Common Law was what the hon. Member had described it to be.
  Clause agreed to.
  VISCOUNT SANDONproposed to postpone Clauses 8, 9, and 10, in accordance with a statement which he had made a few days ago. The clause as to industrial schools he hoped would be in the hands of Members to-morrow, and he thought it was highly desirable to consider that clause in connection with these three clauses.
  Clauses 8, 9, and 10 postponed.
  Clause 11 (Exception to prohibition of employment of children).
  MR. CLARE READmoved, in page 4, line 32, to leave out sub-section 3, and insert—
  "The local authority may, if it thinks fit, issue a. notice declaring the restrictions of this Act on the employment of children to be suspended, for the necessary operations of husbandry and the in-gathering of crops, for the period to be named in such notice, and during such period such restrictions shall not (save as to any proceedings commenced before the date of the notice) be of any force within the jurisdiction of such local authority; Provided, That the period or periods so named by any such local authority shall not exceed in the whole eight weeks between the first day of January and the thirty-first day of December in any year.
  "The local authority shall cause a copy of every notice so issued to be sent to the overseer of every parish within its jurisdiction, and the overseers shall affix the same to the door of the principal church in the parish, and the local authority may further advertise any such notice in such manner (if any) as it may think fit."
  VISCOUNT SANDONthought the period of eight weeks too long; but the Government would assent to the Amendment if his hon. Friend would alter the maximum period to six weeks. Upon the Report he would try to introduce words which would enable Boards of Guardians to make this period elastic,

  1419
  adapting it to the time of hop-picking, or harvest in their various districts.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERput it to the noble Lord whether children under 10 might be employed in hop-picking.
  VISCOUNT SANDONintended that the clause should set free all children for six weeks in the year.
  MR. W. E. FORSTER: Children under 10 as well?
  VISCOUNT SANDON: Oh, certainly. There would be no danger in that.
  MR. MUNDELLAwished to point out that in every other industry in the country except agriculture no child was to be employed under 10, and then he must be a half-timer until he was 13. Even then, if he did not come up to a certain Standard he must be half-timer until he was 14.
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, that the difference between town and country was that in the latter six weeks were to be allowed for industrial operations. When the House remembered that the farmers had to deal with harvest, the uncertainty of the weather, and perishable crops, some allowance must be made or farming operations would come to an end. He proposed to make an alteration in the Amendment so as to substitute six weeks for eight, and otherwise to make it fit in with the rest of the Bill.
  MR. BERESFORD HOPE,in accepting the noble Lord's suggestion, said, it was very desirable that the children should assist their parents in hop-picking. Generally speaking, it was better to localize employment so as to keep it in the hands of the respectable peasantry, or else the farmers would be obliged to rely upon a very different class from St. Giles's.
  MR. MORLEYsaid, that managers of schools in the hop districts thought it quite necessary to limit the time children were employed in hop-picking.
  MR. GREGORYsaid, that Colleges were closed and homes abandoned for the period.
  MR. MUNDELLAsuggested that the time of absence should not exceed eight weeks including holidays.
  VISCOUNT SANDONcould not accept the suggestion, but must abide by the Amendment in its present form.
  MR. PEASEmoved to report Progress, suggesting that the Government should take time to re-consider the clause.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do report Progress, and ask leave to sit again."—(Mr. Pease.)
  VISCOUNT SANDONsaid, he hoped the hon. Member would not press the Motion. The Committee had now discussed the question very fully, and, though there might be hon. Members who wished to speak, he thought a conclusion might be arrived at in a few minutes without re-opening the question to-morrow.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERthought that if Progress were reported the end which the Government had in view would ultimately be more easily gained.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERwas of opinion that the Amendment had been sufficiently debated, and he trusted the clause would be agreed to before Progress was reported, else it would be extremely inconvenient.
  MR. CLARE READsaid, in the harvest holidays the children were of very little use, for the farmers did not want them then, and the Amendment would only give the farmers the opportunity of employing the children about two weeks in the year.
  MR. HAMONDsaid, they were debating this clause as if the object of the Bill were to provide labour for the farmers at the cheapest rate, and not to carry education to the rural districts.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 67; Noes 224: Majority 157.
  MR. A. BROWNmoved that the Chairman do leave the Chair.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Chairman do now leave the Chair."—(Mr. Alexander Brown.)
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the Motion, if carried, would put an end to the Bill. He thought the question under consideration had been brought to a point which would admit of a decision.
  MR. W. E. FORSTERbelieved the matter could not be disposed of so easily as the right hon. Gentleman supposed; but, under the circumstances, he hoped the Motion would not be pressed.
  Question put.
  The Committee divided:—Ayes 46; Noes 219: Majority 173.
  MR. RYLANDSmoved that Progress be reported.
  Motion agreed to.
  Committee report Progress; to sit again To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

PRISONS (SCOTLAND) BILL.

  LEAVE. FIRST READING.
  THE LORD ADVOCATE,in moving for leave to bring in a Bill for amending the Law relating to Prisons in Scotland, said: The prisons in Scotland are at present administered under the Prisons (Scotland) Administration Act, 1860 (23 & 24 Vict. c. 105.) They are divided into two classes, the first consisting of the general prison at Perth, and the second of the local prisons throughout the country. The general prison at Perth is administered by the prison managers for Scotland, four in number—namely, the Sheriff of Perthshire, the Crown Agent for Scotland, the Inspector of Prisons for Scotland, appointed under 5 & 6 Will. IV. c. 38, and the manager and secretary. The prison is administered under rules made by the Secretary of State, in terms of the Act of 1860. The Act itself also contains few detailed provisions on the subject. The Perth prison consists of a prison proper, or penal department, and an establishment for the criminal lunatics of Scotland, or lunatic department. The penal department is constituted for the reception of (1) prisoners sentenced to nine months' imprisonment and upwards, and (2) convicts under sentence of transportation or of penal servitude. Male convicts under sentence of penal servitude are at present detained in this prison only for the period of probation—nine months—unless on the occasion of an unexpected pressure upon the accommodation available in the convict prisons in England. The buildings of the general prison were originally erected in the beginning of the present century as a depôt for French prisoners. Large additions have been made to them from time to time, and a hospital is in course of erection. The number of cells is 743 in the penal department, and 58
  1422
  in the lunatic department; but as that does not afford sufficient accommodation for all the prisoners appropriate for the general prison, the managers have contracted with the County Board of Ayrshire for the maintenance in the prison of Ayr of a certain number of female convicts during their period of probation—namely, 12 months—and with the County Board of Renfrewshire for the maintenance in the prison of Paisley of a certain number of male convicts during their period of probation. The net annual cost per prisoner in 1875, after the deduction of the profits of prisoners' labour was £20 11 s. 5d.; the average cost for the five years 1871–5 was £20 12 s. In 1874 the prisoners' net earnings amounted to £3 6s., and in 1875 to £5 12 s. 2d. per head, the variation in other years being equally great; but the average of the five years 1871–5 was £3 13 s. 1d. Then as to the local prisons, they are administered by the County Boards elected annually in certain proportions set forth in the schedule to the Act of 1860 by the Commissioners of Supply of each county, and the magistrates of the larger towns within it. The County Boards are bound to provide sufficient accommodation for the prisoners within the district, and if they fail to do so the obligation may be enforced in a Court of Law. They are also bound to appoint and pay the necessary staff of prison officers, and to provide for the maintenance and removal of the prisoners under their jurisdiction. The prison officers hold their appointments at the pleasure of the Board, but the Secretary of State has also the power of dismissing any of them. The Secretary of State may order the discontinuance of any local prison, or may limit its use to certain classes of prisoners, the others being provided for elsewhere by the Board. No new prisons can be opened without his consent. The details of prison management are regulated by rules made by the Secretary of State in pursuance of the Act of 1860. These rules are binding on the County Boards, and their observance is the condition on which the grant of the Government is made towards the cost of maintenance of convicted prisoners. Certain latitude has hitherto been allowed in enforcing new rules, and at present several of the rules have been suspended by the County Boards subject to the deter-

  1423
  mination of the Secretary of State. Pending early legislation, the Secretary of State has delayed disposing of the suspensions; but if legislation is postponed, they must be disposed of. The prison assessments, amounting in 1875 to £46,000, and on the average of the five years ending 1875 to £41,000, are divided between the counties and the burghs in proportion to their respective rentals, and are paid in counties wholly by the owners, and in the burghs one-half by owners and one-half by occupiers. The number of local prisons in Scotland has been gradually reduced since 1840, when, including all places of detention, it exceeded 200, and it now stands at 56, in addition to seven places at which police cells have been legalized by the Secretary of State as places in which convicted prisoners may be detained for periods not exceeding three days. In 1874 there were five prisons, of which the average daily population was less than one. Of these, one has since been closed. There were eight with an average population of one. Of these, three have since been closed. There were 36 prisons in all whose population did not exceed 10; there were 16 between 10 and 50;two between 50 and 100; and three between 100 and 200. Above 200 there were two—namely, Glasgow with 739, and Edinburgh with 323. The waste of money involved is very great, and opportunities for using prison discipline and employing the prisoners in remunerative labour proportionately small. It is probable that an entire re-arrangement of the Scotch local prisons will be necessary, and the whole prison population of Scotland, which for the five years ending 1875 was on the average only 2,902—that is to say, 2,035 in the local prisons, 752 in the general prison at Perth, and 115 convicts in Ayr and Paisley—may be advantageously accommodated in a greatly reduced number of prisons placed at convenient points over the country. These prisons, it is obvious, will be much smaller than those contemplated for England; but the scattered nature of the population in Scotland renders this unavoidable. To obviate, as far as practicable, the inconvenience which will result from the reduction of the number of prisons, it is proposed to extend the operation of the provisions now in force for legalizing police cells as places of detention by legalizing them
  1424
  for prisoners before trial and even for short periods after sentence, extending perhaps up to 10 or 14 days. These police cells would continue under the charge of the local police authorities; but the cost of maintaining and removing the prisoners would be repaid by the Government. The net annual cost of a prisoner in a local prison after deduction of the profit of prisoners' labour was in 1875, £20 18 s. 6d., and the average for the five years ending 1875 was £21 15 s. In 1875, the prisoner's net earnings amounted to £1 16 s. 11 d. in the local prisons, as against £5 12 s. 6d. in the general prison. The average of these earnings for the five years ending 1875 was £1 13 s. 10 d. in the local prisons, against £4 13 s. 1d. in the general prison. The Bill which it is now proposed to introduce is on the same general lines in most respects as the English Bill; but it differs from it in this respect—that it proposes to put the general prison at Perth, and the transferred local prisons, under the management of the same persons, subject, of course, to the Secretary of State. For this purpose it proposes to re-constitute the present prison managers in the manner set forth in the Bill. The management of the existing managers has been very satisfactory, and I gladly take the opportunity of specially referring to the able services of Dr. Hill Burton, the stipendiary manager. The Bill contains ample provisions for the transference of the local prisons, for their subsequent maintenance by the Government, for the continuance of the present prison officials, and the adjustment between the Government on the one hand, and the counties and burghs now represented on the Local Prison Boards on the other, of all questions as to obligations and assets of the local prisons. As by far the greater number of the clauses in the Act of 1860 and the various amending Acts are repealed by this measure, it has been thought the better course to repeal those Acts altogether, and to re-enact in the present Bill such of their clauses as it is desirable to keep in force. This renders the Scotch Bill somewhat longer than the English Bill. But it will be productive of very great convenience to all connected with prison management and discipline in Scotland. I beg to move for leave to introduce the Bill.
  Motion agreed to.
  Bill for amending the Law relating to Prisons in Scotland, ordered to be brought in by The Lord Advocate and Mr. Secretary Cross.

  BOW STREET POLICE COURT (SITE) BILL. [EXPENSES OF COMMISSIONERS.]
  Order for Committee read.
  Motion made and Question put, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  The House divided:—Ayes 125; Noes 30: Majority 95.
  Main Question, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair," put, and agreed to.
  Matter considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the payment, out of moneys to be provided by Parliament, of all Expenses incurred by the Commissioners of Works under the provisions of any Act of the present Session relating to the acquisition of a Site in Bow Street for the erection of a new Police Court and Police Station and Offices.
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Select Committee on the Bow Street Police Court (Site) Bill do consist of Five Members, Three to be nominated by the House, and Two to be nominated by the Committee of Selection."
  Debate arising.
  Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Captain Nolan.)
  The House divided:—Ayes 8; Noes 92: Majority 84.
  Original Question put.
  Ordered, That the Select Committee on the Bow Street Police Court (Site) Bill do consist of Five Members, Three to be nominated by the House, and Two to be nominated by the Committee of Selection.
  Colonel Black Burne, Mr. Spencer Stanhope, and Mr. Richard Smyth accordingly nominated Members of the Committee.
  Ordered, That all Petitions presented against the Bill be referred to the Committee on the Bill, provided such Petitions are presented one clear day before the Meeting of the Committee; and that such of the Petitioners as pray to be heard by themselves, their Counsel, or agents, be heard upon their Petitions, if they think fit, and Counsel heard in favour of the Bill against the said Petitions:—That the Committee have power to send for persons, papers, and records; That Three be the quorum.—(Mr. William Henry Smith.)

  ARKLOW HARBOUR IMPROVEMENT BILL. [EXPENSES OF WORKS.]
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That it is expedient to authorize the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland to make Advances by way of Grant, to an amount not exceeding in the whole the sum of thirteen
  1426
  thousand pounds, for the completion of any Works which may be authorized by any Act of the present Session relating to the Improvement of the Harbour of Arklow, in the county of Wick low.
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock.
  Ordered, "That the Select Committee on the Arklow Harbour Improvement Bill do consist of Five Members, Three to be nominated by the House, and Two to be nominated by the Committee of Selection.
  Mr. Basil Woodd, Mr. Assheton, and Mr. O'Shaughnessy accordingly nominated Members of the Committee."
  Ordered, That the Ardglass Harbour Bill and the Erne Lough and River Bill be referred to the Committee.

  ARDGLASS HARBOUR [EXPENSES OF WORKS.]
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland to make Advances by way of Grant, to an amount not exceeding in the whole the sum of fifteen thousand pounds, for executing any Works which may be authorised by any Act of the present Session relating to the Improvement of the Harbour of Ardglass, in the county of Down.
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

  ERNE LOUGH AND RIVER [EXPENSES OF WORKS.]
  Considered in Committee.
  (In the Committee.)
  Resolved, That it is expedient to authorise the Commissioners of Public Works in Ireland to make Advances by way of Grant, to an amount not exceeding in the whole the sum of fifteen thousand pounds, for executing any Works which may be authorised by any Act of the present Session relating to the improvement of the Navigation of the Lough and River Erne.
  Resolution to be reported To-morrow, at Two of the clock.

  EXHAUSTED PARISH LANDS BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. Sclater-Booth, Bill to make provision for the disposal of certain Lands appropriated for the supply of materials for the repair of public and private Roads, ordered to be brought in by Mr. Sclater-Booth and Mr. Salt.
  METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS (MONEY) BILL.
  On Motion of Mr. William Henry Smith, Bill for further amending the Acts relating to the raising of money by the Metropolitan Board of Works; and for other purposes, ordered to be brought in by Mr. WILLIAM HENRY SMITHAND SIR. CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.

  ADJOURNMENT.
  Motion made, and Question put. "That this House do now adjourn."—(Sir Michael Hicks-Beach.)
  The House divided:—Ayes 68; Noes 11: Majority 57.
  House adjourned at a quarter before Three o'clock.

Preamble
MINUTES.]—Sat First in Parliament—The Earl Howe, after the Death of his Brother.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Legal Practitioners (Ireland)* (170); Nullum Tempus (Ireland)* (171).
Second Reading—Medical Practitioners* (157); Customs Duties Consolidation* (162); Customs Laws Consolidation* (163).
Committee—Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Chelmsford, &c.)* (161); Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Artizans and Labourers Dwellings)* (127).
Committee—Report—Burghs (Scotland) Gas Supply* (124–172); County of Peebles Justiciary District (Scotland)* (158).
Third Reading—Crab and Lobster Fisheries (Norfolk)* (154); Local Government Board's Provisional Orders Confirmation (Bingley, &c.)* (136), and passed.
Royal Assent—Prevention of Crimes Act Amendment [39 & 40 Vict. c. 23]; Small Testate Estates (Scotland) [39 & 40 Vict. c. 24]; Burghs (Division into Wards) (Scotland) Amendment [39 & 40 Vict. c. 25]: Publicans Certificates (Scotland) [39 & 40 Vict. c 26]; Local Light Dues (Reduction) [39 & 40 Vict. c. 27]; Admiralty Jurisdiction (Ireland) [39 & 40 Vict. c. 28]; Coroners (Dublin) [39 & 40 Vict. c. 93]; Kingstown Harbour [39 & 40 Vict. c. 95]; Smithfield Prison (Dublin) [39 & 40 Vict. c. 96]; Waterford, New Ross, and Wexford Junction Railway (Sale) [39 & 40 Vict. c. 98]; Gas and Water Orders Confirmation (Chapel-en-le-Frith, &c.) [39 & 40 Vict. c. 92]; Oyster and Mussel Fisheries Order Confirmation [39 & 40 Vict. c. 91]; Public Health (Scotland) Provisional Order (Wemyss) [39 & 40 Vict. c. 94]; Local Government Provisional Orders, Bristol, &c. (No. 6) [39 & 40 Vict. c. 97].
Their Lordships met;—And having gone through the Business on the Paper, without debate—
House adjourned at half past Five o'clock, till To-morrow, Eleven o'clock.