Sitting of 3 July 1876

MINUTES.
NEW WRIT ISSUED—For Leitrim County, v. Major William Richard Ormsby Gore, now Baron Harlech, called up to the House of Peers.
SUPPLY—considered in Committee—CIVIL SERVICES—Resolution [June 30] reported.
PUBLIC BILLS—Resolution [June 30] reported—Ordered—Army Pensions Commutation *.
Ordered—First Reading—Convict Prisons (Returns)* [227].
First Reading—Provisional Orders (Ireland) Confirmation* [220]; Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (London)* [221]—(Hailsham, &c.)* [223]—(Hornsey)* [224].
Second Reading—Prisons [180].
Committee—Medical Act Qualifications [170], debate adjourned.
Committee—Report—Customs Duties Consolidation [188]; Customs Laws Consolidation * [154]; Elver Fishing* [162–225]; Notices to Quit (Ireland) (re-comm.)* [160–226].
Considered as amended—Bankers' Books Evidence* [205].
Withdrawn—Free Libraries and Museums* [35].

ARMY—THE AUXILIARY FORCES—THE YEOMANRY.—QUESTION.
VISCOUNT NEWPORTasked the Secretary of State for War, Whether there is any truth in the statement, which has appeared in some of the newspapers, that any Yeomanry regiment has declined to obey orders and attend the forthcoming manœuvres?
MR. GATHORNE HARDY: Sir, I have been informed on inquiry that no such circumstance is known to the War Office.

CLERKS OF THE PEACE, IRELAND.

  QUESTION.
  SIR JOSEPH M'KENNAasked Mr. Solicitor General for Ireland, Whether the Law does not require that certain
  852
  formalities in connection with convening Courts of Quarter Sessions should be verified by the signature of the clerk of the peace; and, whether he will take such steps as may be necessary to ensure the appointment of clerks of the peace in those countries where there are vacancies at present?
  THE SOLICITOR GENERAL FOR IRELAND (Mr. PLUNKET),in reply, said, the office of Clerk of the Peace for the county of Carlow had been for some time vacant, and the Custos rotulorum had deferred appointing to it, quite rightly he thought, having regard to the Clerk of the Peace and Crown Bill now before Parliament; but there were certain duties connected with the Civil Bill Courts which ought to be performed by the Clerk of the Peace, and the Government had represented to the Custos the propriety of filling the office without further delay.

ROUMANIA—THE NEW TARIFF.

  QUESTION.
  MR. SERJEANT SPINKSasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether the Roumanian Government have notified to Her Majesty's Government (either directly to the Foreign Office or through Her Majesty's Ambassador at Constantinople) their intention of raising their import Duties on English goods to a very considerable extent, such increase to take effect on the 13th of July proximo; and, if so, whether Her Majesty's Government have taken or will take any steps in the matter for the protection of British Commerce?
  MR. BOURKE: Sir, the Government of the United Principalities of Moldo-Wallachia have notified their intention of establishing a new tariff, which it is proposed to bring into force this month. We have communicated with various Chambers of Commerce in this country upon the subject, and are also in communication with the French and other Governments as to the course to be adopted for the protection of the interests of British subjects and those of other nations affected by the new tariff.

METROPOLITAN BOARD OF WORKS—RETURNS.—QUESTION.
MR. KAY-SHUTTLEWORTHasked the Chairman of the Metropolitan Board

853
of Works, When the Returns, ordered on the 22nd of March 1870, of Expenditure for five years, and of the Parliamentary Expenses of the Board will be presented?
SIR JAMES HOGG: In reply to the Question of my hon. Friend, I have to state that the Return has entailed an enormous amount of labour on the officers of the Board, but is now, I am informed, completed so far as the great majority of the Bills are concerned, and I hope that it may be presented to the House within about a fortnight.

CRIMINAL LAW—CASE OF JAMES TIMONY.—QUESTION.
MR. ANDERSONasked the Secretary of State for the Home Department, If his attention has been called to a statement in a newspaper of the 28th as to the trial of James Timony, a youth of seventeen, before the Recorder of Belfast and a jury on the 23rd May, and if it be true that the constable was the only witness, and swore that the boy had come voluntarily to him and said "this bar of iron belongs to James Conolly of North Street, and I have stolen it because I have had a row at home and I want to go to prison;" that the jury gave a verdict of larceny but recommended the youth to mercy, and that thereupon the Recorder pronounced sentence of seven years' penal servitude and three years' police supervision; and, if the statement is substantially correct, whether he will take the steps necessary to set aside the sentence?
SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: Sir, I hope the hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Anderson) will excuse me if I answer his Question, as it falls more into my province than that of my right hon. Friend. My attention has been called by the Question of the hon. Member to an article in The London Figaro on this subject. That is a seriocomic periodical published in London, one which, I think, can hardly be supposed to give the most accurate account of matters in Ireland. The statements contained in that article of Timony's case are both inaccurate and incomplete. His age is 19, not 17; he did not come voluntarily to the constable, but the constable stopped him, seeing him with the bar of iron, and interrogated him. The constable was
854
not the only witness; the prisoner was indicted for the larceny as well as for previous convictions, and the jury who found him guilty of the larceny recommended him to mercy in ignorance of his previous convictions. Though so young he had been convicted no less than seven times before, and it appears from the report of the Governor of the Antrim Gaol that among these convictions was one for attempted housebreaking and another for uttering base coin. I may add—though, of course, it does not directly bear on the Recorder's sentence—that Timony's conduct in gaol is reported as very bad; and that as to his family, his brother is a convict now undergoing sentence, and his sister often in gaol, being there at the present moment. I do not think it is a case which requires the interference of the Government.

PARLIAMENT—PRIVILEGE—LORDS LIEUTENANT.—QUESTION.
COLONEL NAGHTENasked Mr. Attorney General, Whether it is a constitutional proceeding on the part of a Lord Lieutenant to canvass the Electors in the interests of one of the Candidates at an Election for the county of which he is Lord Lieutenant; and, whether such conduct is not an infringement of the privileges of this House?
THE ATTORNEY GENERAL: Sir, there is a Resolution of the House which relates to the Question of the hon. and gallant Member. I will read that part of it which bears on this matter. It runs thus—
"That it is a high infringement of the liberties and privileges of the Commons of the United Kingdom for (inter alios) any Lord Lieutenant or Governor of any county to avail himself of any authority derived from his commission to influence the election of any member to serve for the Commons in Parliament."
If, therefore, a Lord Lieutenant avails himself of the authority derived from his commission to influence an election, he is guilty of an unconstitutional act and a breach of Privilege of the House of Commons. I cannot say, however, a Lord Lieutenant, by merely canvassing at an election, would be doing that which is unconstitutional or be infringing the Privileges of the House, for I must remind the hon. and gallant Member that there are several Lords

855
Lieutenant who are Members of the House. They have doubtless canvassed at their own elections, but I have never heard that it was considered that by doing so they had committed a breach of Privilege.

HYDE PARK—THE SERPENTINE—BATHING.—QUESTION.
MR. SOTHERON-ESTCOURTasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether he is aware that great annoyance and danger is caused to riders in Rotten Row by the disorderly conduct of persons on their way to the bathing place in the Serpentine; and, whether he will be good enough to take measures, by increasing the number of police on duty there, or otherwise, to put a stop to it?
LORD HENRY LENNOX,in reply, said, that until his hon. Friend had put down his Question his attention had not this year been called to the great annoyance and danger referred to. He would, however, lose no time in calling the attention of the police to the subject, with a view to prevent the recurrence of these outrages. He might, however, perhaps, remind the House that, with a view to abate that and similar nuisances, he had caused those mounds to be raised and planted with shrubs which had been so severely criticized in the early part of the Session.

MERCHANT SHIPPING ACT, 1871—THE SCHOONER "LEADER."

  QUESTION.
  MR. MAC IVERasked the President of the Board of Trade, If it is true that, at the instance of the Board of Trade, Mr. Septimus Howell, managing owner of the schooner "Leader," has been twice taken into custody under a warrant, with the results that the first case was dismissed by the magistrates at Runcorn, and that in the second case Mr. Howell was prosecuted for misdemeanour before Mr. Justice Brett at the last Liverpool Assizes and acquitted; and, whether the Board of Trade intend to compensate Mr. Howell for the loss and injury to his business, and the expenses to which he has been put by these prosecutions, and if it is also intended to make Mr. Howell any allowance in respect of the ignominy to which he has been subjected?
  SIR CHARLES ADDERLEY: The case of the Leader I have already laid before the House as signally illustrating the carefulness with which the law since 1871 has made it a misdemeanor to send an unsafe ship to sea, and the great advantage given to the owner, in the way of opportunity, to exculpate himself. An official inquiry reported the Leader to be totally rotten, and that the owner must have known it. On this report the Board of Trade prosecuted, a warrant being legally necessary in such a case. The magistrates would not commit for trial, but refused costs, giving the defendant the benefit of some confliction of evidence. Mr. Howell continued to sail the ship, and on her arrival at Plymouth she was again reported to the Board of Trade, who thereupon ordered a survey. The surveyor reported that she was in a dangerous condition, and it became the duty of the Board of Trade to prosecute Mr. Howell a second time. Brought up on a warrant, as was legally necessary in such a case, before the magistrates of Liverpool, he was committed for trial at the Assizes, the magistrates saying that a primâ facie case was made out against him, and that it was important. The defendant's own witness said that it would be difficult to exaggerate the rottenness of the Leader's timbers; but, availing himself of the statutory permission, the defendant obtained an acquittal, the Judge (Mr. Justice Brett) having put it to the jury to consider whether he had not used reasonable means for safety. The proceedings having been regularly and reasonably instituted, and the result most fortunate for the owner, there seem no grounds whatever for giving him compensation. Mr. Howell has himself admitted the absolute unseaworthiness of his ship, and has since sold her for an old hulk.

THE NATIONAL GALLERY.

  QUESTION.
  SIR JOHN LESLIEasked the First Commissioner of Works, considering that disappointment has been felt in consequence of the closing of the National Gallery during the months of May and June, Whether he can explain the following extracts from a letter in "The Times" by the Director of the

  857
  National Gallery, to excuse the delay in reopening the National Collection of Pictures to the public:—
  "The compulsory absence of the supreme officer on urgent business in the interests of the National Gallery;"
  "The problem, difficult to understand, of hanging pictures, of which, when it is solved, practically, it will be time enough to inform the public of the result;"
  "Certain slight obstacles, which when removed enable him to hope that the National Gallery may yet be opened before the general break up of the season?"
  LORD HENRY LENNOX: Sir, as soon as I saw the Question of my hon. Friend on the Orders of the House I communicated with Mr. Burton, the Director of the National Gallery, who has furnished me with categorical Answers to the Question of my hon. Friend. I propose now to read those answers to the House—
  "1. The Director's letter was not written to excuse delay in the re-opening of the National Gallery, as no avoidable delay was occurring, but to explain some statements in an article of The Times of the 3rd of June, as was distinctly stated in the letter; 2. It is one of the duties of the Director of the National Gallery to go abroad to inspect pictures which he has reason to believe would be eligible for the Gallery, and are for sale, and it was on such an unavoidable mission he was called away towards the end of May last; 3. It may be easily conceived that the problem of arranging on given spaces upwards of 700 pictures of the highest excellence, and by masters of distinction, in such a manner as to do justice to all, to properly fill the spaces, and to produce a satisfactory architectonic effect, is one that requires thought, experiment, and time, and cannot be executed lightly; 4. The obstacle to the successful and immediate prosecution of the work of placing the pictures was the glare of sunshine from parts of the glass roofs. This impediment has been brought under the notice of the Board of Works, and is now being removed, and no delay whatever has occurred in the hanging."
  SIR JOHN LESLIEthere upon gave Notice, that as soon as the Business of the House would permit he would move a Resolution—
  "That, in the opinion of this House, it is not desirable that the National Collection of Pictures should be closed during the months of May, June, and July."

METROPOLIS—HYDE PARK CORNER.

  QUESTION.
  MR. CAWLEYasked the First Commissioner of Works, Whether he has obtained any statistics showing the num-
  858
  ber of vehicles passing along Piccadilly eastwards and wèstwards at Hyde Park Corner; the number passing to and from Grosvenor Place; the number passing to and from Hyde Park from Piccadilly and from Grosvenor Place during particular hours of the day; and, if he has, whether he will lay such information upon the Table of the House, prior to the discussion on the plan to be proposed for relieving the blocks to the traffic which now occur?
  LORD HENRY LENNOX,in reply, said, he had not in the Office any formal statistics such as those alluded to in the Question, but he had been in communication with the Commissioners of Police, who had agreed to furnish them. He could promise his hon. Friend that they should be in the hands of Members before the Vote for the new road across the Green Park came on for discussion.

THE BRITISH MUSEUM—SALARIES.

  QUESTION.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer, Whether considering the Second Report of the Civil Service Inquiry Commission, Her Majesty's Government propose to increase the salaries of the Heads of Departments in the British Museum; and, whether they have received any recommendation from the trustees in regard thereto; and, if so, whether any and what answer has been returned by the Treasury?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: Sir, the Treasury have received a request from the Trustees of the British Museum to inquire into the position of the officers of that Department, with a view to a revision both of their salaries and of their duties. All I can say on the subject at present is that the recommendations will be considered, and that we hope to be able to make a satisfactory explanation before the next Estimates are prepared.

INLAND REVENUE DEPARTMENT—THE TREASURY MINUTE.

  EXPLANATION.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER: I wish to take this opportunity of referring to something which passed last week on a Question put to me by the hon. Member for Gloucester (Mr.

  859
  Monk). The hon. Gentleman asked me a Question in regard to a Treasury Minute affecting the service of the Inland Revenue Department. I declined to answer the Question, on the ground that the Minute had not been published; but the other day the hon. Member showed me a copy of The Civilian newspaper in which that Minute was printed in full, with a short note apparently signed or initialed by the Chairman of the Board of Inland Revenue, and requesting that the Minute might be circulated for information. The hon. Member pointed out that he could not be considered guilty of a breach of propriety in calling attention to the subject. That is perfectly true, and I can only apologize to him if I said anything which could be held to reflect upon him. At the same time, I find that, as regards the Treasury, my answer was perfectly correct. We have never authorized the publication of the Minute, and it ought not to have been published. It contained a statement of the terms upon which officers may retire with a view to the re-arrangement of the service. Before the Board of Inland Revenue could give an answer, it was necessary that they should ascertain by private inquiry what officers would retire. Accordingly, they ordered it to be circulated in the Department for the purpose of making such inquiry. They had no idea that it would be published, and it ought not to have been published. I do not, however, impute anything improper to the hon. Member, and if my language conveyed such an idea I sincerely apologize to him.

EDUCATION—THE CANAL POPULATION.—QUESTION.
MR. PRICEasked the Vice President of the Council, Whether he considers that sub-section 1 of Clause 7 of the Elementary Education Act will meet the case of canal children; and, how he proposes to define the two-mile limit with reference to the residence of children whose parents reside during the whole of the year in boats on canals and navigable rivers?
VISCOUNT SANDON: The subject referred to by the Question is both an important and a difficult one. I am informed that in Germany and other countries the making provision for the
860
instruction of the children of the population living on canals and navigable rivers has been found a subject full of difficulty, and I fear Clause 7 of the Education Bill may not meet completely the case of our canal population. At this moment I cannot say whether we shall be able to treat their case fully in the Education Bill, or whether we shall think it better to defer this matter till my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary deals with the general recommendations of the Factory Commissioners, who reported upon the condition of the canal population. I can assure the hon. Gentleman, however, that the matter, of the importance of which we are well aware, shall not be overlooked.

PARLIAMENT—ORDER—PRIVATE BILLS—SOLICITATION OF VOTES.

  EXPLANATION.
  SIR EDWARD WATKIN,who had given Notice—
  "To ask the honourable Baronet the Member for Tamworth, Whether he is prepared to substantiate or to withdraw the statement made by him during the discussion on the second reading of a Private Bill on Tuesday last, in reference to an alleged issue, by or in the name of a Member of this House, interested in the question involved, of a circular soliciting the honourable Baronet's vote,"
  said: Before putting the Question I pause for a moment to ascertain whether the right hon. Baronet will save me the pain of doing so, or the House the trouble of listening to me, by retracting or apologizing for the statement referred to. As the right hon. Gentleman does not retract or apologize, I throw myself on the indulgence of the House while I make a short explanation, and deny, as I have denied before, that there is any foundation whatever for the statement which the right hon. Gentleman made last Tuesday. The character of a Member of this House for consistency is the property of his constituents, and if it were not for that consideration, and others which I might mention, I should have felt disposed to pass over the right hon. Gentleman's statement in silence, knowing very well that, although in the main and on the average he is in everybody's estimation a Gentleman of a generous turn of mind, yet there are occasions when he speaks in this House in a manner that certainly is not a good

  861
  imitation of that of his great predecessor. But this is not a mere personal question of injury to my feelings and my character, but a question as to the tone of the debates in this House, and also a question affecting those suitors who come before this House. ["Order!"]
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Gentleman is quite entitled to make a personal explanation to the House as to his own conduct, and no doubt such explanation will be received by the House with its usual indulgence; but he is not entitled to enter on other matters.
  SIR EDWARD WATKIN: I of course bow, Sir, to your decision. I should be very loth to move the Adjournment of the House to put myself in Order. I was merely proceeding to say that it appeared to me that when a right hon. Member of this House, who cannot plead youth or inexperience as an excuse, speaks in this House of observations made to it by another hon. Member as "perfectly farcical," and accuses him of "advocating a job," that is not a course which is calculated to promote the character of the tone of our debates. I will not pursue that matter further, but as the statements of the right hon. Gentleman induced hon. Members to vote against the second reading of the Bill, I will, Sir, by your ruling, confine myself strictly to the question whether I deserve the charge which the right hon. Gentleman has brought against me. In doing so I will not trust to my memory, but will refer to the public newspapers, especially to a paper which perhaps may be looked upon with some favour by hon. Members opposite—I mean the constitutional journal, The Standard, where an account of what took place on Tuesday appeared in the debate on the Motion for the second reading of the Northern Union of Railways (Ireland) Bill. The following is the report as given in that journal:—
  "Sir Robert Peel thought the indignation of the hon. Member opposite wholly misplaced, and when he spoke of the conduct of the hon. Baronet he must remind the hon. Member that he (Sir E. Watkin) had himself sent out a circular. At any rate he had received a circular signed with the name of the hon. Member. Therefore it was perfectly farcical for the hon. Member to express indignation against those who came down to discuss this question. It was quite clear, after what had been said by the hon. Member for Worcester, that this was a job.
  "Mr. Sherriff rose to order. ["Order!"]
  862
  "The Speaker said, the hon. Baronet was in possession of the House, and the hon. Member for Worcester could make any explanation he wished at the termination of the hon. Baronet's remarks.
  "Sir Robert Peel went on to say that the hon. Member for Worcester was a director of a company that had replaced another company which had become insolvent, as most of the mercantile credit companies of London did become. It was one of those companies which went to Ireland for the purpose of upsetting arrangements which were most convenient to the residents in the country, and their proceedings must be watched with a jealous eye. He had not been brought down by a whip of the hon. Baronet, but had come to the House like other hon. Gentlemen to transact the public business of that country, and he trusted the House would take a sensible view of this question and not trouble a committee upstairs with this Bill when their deliberations must inevitably result in the rejection of the Bill.
  "Sir Edward Watkin asked to be allowed to explain. The hon. Baronet said he had received a circular signed by him, inviting him to come down to the House and vote. There was no foundation, in fact, for that statement; and he challenged the hon. Baronet to produce any such circular. He had never sent out a circular soliciting a vote in the House in his life.
  "Sir Robert Peel: The hon. Member is very polite. I merely said what I have no doubt others will bear out, that circulars were sent out, to which the name of the hon. Member was attached, soliciting support."
  When I rejoined that I had never sent out a circular soliciting a vote in the House in my life the right hon. Baronet said—"The hon. Member is very polite." The right hon. Baronet did me no more than justice; but he went on to say that circulars were sent out to which my name was attached soliciting support. I spoke to the right hon. Gentleman immediately after the division, and assured him he was entirely wrong. He then altered his mind a second time, and said he had not stated that he had seen a circular with my name attached to it, but that he simply received a circular. I wrote to him on the following Monday, stating—
  "I never in the whole course of my life, so far as I can remember, wrote to you or authorized to be written to you a single line upon any subject, and it is quite impossible that my signature or my name could ever have been used in the solicitation of your vote upon any question whatever of any kind. Prior to the discussion which ended in the rejection on second reading of the Metropolitan Railway Bill, you and other hon. Members received a private circular from Lord Claud Hamilton asking you to attend the House and vote against the second reading of that Bill, which, as the circular stated, was to be moved 'by Sir Edward Watkin.' It is probable that you had in your mind yesterday this circular of Lord Claud Hamilton, and that may

  863
  be the reason of a mistake made in a hasty speech."
  To this letter I received the following reply:—
  "Whitehall, June 28,1876.
  "Sir,—I am in the receipt of your letter of yesterday's date, and in reply beg leave to say that, prior to the discussion which ended in the rejection on second reading of the Metropolitan Railway Bill, I did receive a circular in which your name appeared, asking me to attend the House and vote in favour of the second reading of the Bill.
  "This is what I said, and it is probable that you had not in your mind yesterday this circular, and that may be the reason of a mistake made in a hasty speech.
  "I am, yours faithfully,
  "Robert Peel.
  "Sir E. W. Watkin, M.P."
  I pass over the impertinence—["Order!"]—contained in this repetition of my own words in the closing sentence of the letter. ["Order!"]
  MR. SPEAKERsaid, such an expression as had been used by the hon. Member could not be allowed in this House.
  SIR EDWARD WATKIN: No one could be more ready than I to withdraw any expression to which you, Sir, should object; but when a Gentleman writes to another, repeating the last sentence of his letter, I think it can hardly be considered courteous. ["Withdraw!"] Of course, I withdraw anything I may have said that may not be in Order, and apologize. With regard to the right hon. Gentleman's charge that I had solicited his vote, I at once sent a copy of his note to the Parliamentary solicitor for the Bill, who wrote in reply that neither by himself nor by the Parliamentary agents had my name been used in any circular in reference to the second reading of this Bill. Such a circular was issued, but it was a dry statement of facts, containing no solicitation to Members, and certainly not using the name of any Member. I was further assured that that was the only statement issued; and under those circumstances I am entitled to say that the charges of the right hon. Baronet are without foundation, and to hope that, even now, late as it is, the right hon. Baronet will retract them. I beg now to ask the right hon. Baronet, Whether he is prepared to substantiate or to withdraw the statement made by him during the discussion on the second
  864
  reading of a Private Bill on Tuesday last, in reference to an alleged issue, by or in the name of a Member of this House, interested in the question involved, of a circular soliciting the right hon. Baronet's vote?
  SIR ROBERT PEEL: I hope I shall be able to reply to the Question which has been proposed to me, and to the satisfaction of the House, which is all that I desire. The hon. Member has spoken of me in very harsh terms, and in language not quite Parliamentary or proper for one hon. Gentleman to address to another. I shall endeavour to reply to him in perfect good humour; but I must say that in the charge he has made it seems to me that he intends to convey to the House that I have said something that is not true, or that I have said something that is not founded on fact and which I cannot substantiate. Now, the House is aware, and I am aware, that this is not the first time that the hon. Member for Hythe has launched his accusations without any ground for them. ["Oh!" and "Order!"] I recollect that four or five years ago—["Order, order!"]—
  MR. SPEAKER: The right hon. Baronet has been asked to answer a Question referring to a debate in which he made some observations reflecting on the personal character and conduct of the hon. Member for Hythe, and in answering that Question it will be desirable, according to the practice of the House, that the right hon. Baronet should confine himself to that matter.
  SIR ROBERT PEEL: By your ruling, Sir, I will confine myself to that matter; but I would ask permission of the House to say that this is not the first time—["Order!"]—I recollect some years ago—["Order, order!"] This is to the point, and I am determined to say it. [Laughter, and renewed cries of "Order!"] The hon. Member accuses me of having said that which is not true, and I say this is not the first time—["Order, order!"] When Mr. Chichester Fortescue was at the Board of Trade, the hon. Member for Hythe accused me—["Order, order!"]
  MR. SPEAKER: After what I have said, I trust that the right hon. Gentleman will not travel beyond the limits of Parliamentary practice in the observations which he wishes to address to the House.
  SIR ROBERT PEEL: Of course, Sir, I bow to your decision, and will not refer to the matter again; but I may say this, that it is not the first time—[Laughter.] I myself consider, as the hon. Member for Hythe has said, that this is really not a question which ought to occupy the time and attention of the House, inasmuch as I am sure that every one who heard me the other afternoon knows perfectly well what I meant, what I intended to convey, and, not only that, but what I actually did say on that occasion. The House will give me the opportunity of illustrating the remarks I have made in further replying to the challenge of the hon. Member for Hythe. He says I made three statements. I say I did nothing of the kind. I stand by the recorded statement in the newspapers, and I am in the hands of hon. Members on both sides who heard my statement, and I propose to substantiate what I then said. Now, everyone who is conversant with the proceedings of the House of Commons—and for nearly 30 years I have had a knowledge of the proceedings of this House—any one conversant with those proceedings knows, and I appeal with confidence to experienced Members, and even to you yourself, Sir, and to the Clerk at the Table, when I say that it has been the invariable practice upon Opposed Private Bills, as well as upon many Public Bills, for solicitations to be sent round. Whether the practice is a good one or not I do not say; but such notices have invariably been sent round, asking hon. Members to vote for or against particular measures; and it is perfectly obvious, therefore, that no one would take the trouble to send round a circular in support of or in opposition to any Opposed Private Bill, if it were not at the instance of those who are directly or immediately interested. There are, no doubt, many hon. Members now in the House who were not pressed on the occasion in question, and I must therefore refer to what did take place on that occasion. This is not a mere personal matter, but one of considerable importance as affecting the position of Members of this House. There was a Private Bill discussion on last Tuesday. I knew nothing about the matter, excepting what I read in the statements submitted to me from both parties, from each of whom I received a solicitation for my
  866
  support. I came down here and said what I did. From what I had heard and read, I came to the conclusion, and many thought with me, that there was a "job" connected with the matter, and it is well, Sir, that in these days such things should be exposed. What I said was, that there was a Mercantile and Credit Company (Limited) in London which proposed to go to the North of Ireland and construct six railways there. We knew from "another place"—the House of Lords—that there were nine railways already bankrupt in that part of the country, and the hon. Baronet (Sir Thomas Bateson), who moved the rejection of the Bill, said it was not necessary for the interests of the district. One of the Imperial directors said that it was, and so did another hon. Member, and finally the hon. Member for Hythe. The hon. Member for Hythe said the statement of the hon. Baronet was one from which he dissented, but he especially complained that he had asked 160 Gentlemen to come down to that House to support his views, and he added that he hoped it would be the last time he should hoar of an attempt to commit a private injustice through political influence; and then he spoke of maintaining the dignity of the House. Now, I was in the House of Commons in 1862, before the hon. Member for Hythe was in it, and when he was only plain Mr. Watkin, and I know some of the antecedents of the hon. Member. I followed the hon. Member for Hythe, and I said that his virtuous indignation was misapplied, because it was not an unusual proceeding to send out these invitations, and that in his (Sir Edward Watkin's) case, as regards the Metropolitan Extension Bill, I had received a solicitation to vote. I did not say his name was attached. ["Oh, oh!"] I said I had received a solicitation—[A Voice: A circular?] Yes, a circular. [A Voice: And from him?] I deny it. ["Oh, oh!"] I never said I received it from him. I said that I did not receive it directly from the hon. Member. ["Oh, oh!"] I could not say from whom I received it; but I mentioned, and I still maintain, that I did receive a solicitation for my vote in favour of the Bill. The hon. Member says he never in any case sent out a notice with reference to any Bill in which he was engaged. Now, I hold in my hand a

  867
  notice sent out relative to the South Eastern Railway Bill. It is a statement of the promoters, and the hon. Member for Hythe is Chairman of that Company. I ask, could any one of the promoters of that Bill send forth that statement without the knowledge and consent of the hon. Member for Hythe? I maintain I was perfectly justified in what I said. Many hon. Gentlemen on this, as well as on the other, side of the House have received the same circular. I have received assurances from several hon. Members that they have received it. I hope the House will receive with satisfaction the statement I have made—["Oh, oh!"]—I have been too long in this House—["Hear, hear!"]—I have been too long in this House—[Renewed cries of "Hear, hear!"]—not to know what is due to the House and to hon. Members in it. I hope I will never shrink, as I have never done during the 30 years I have been a Member of this House, from honestly, candidly, and fairly expressing my opinions, or from withdrawing any opinion that I find not justified by the facts of the case. But in this case I cannot conscientiously do so. I cannot do so because I have received—and more than once—solicitations to support Bills in which the hon. Member for Hythe has been directly interested.

CUBA—TAX ON FOREIGNERS.

  QUESTION.
  MR. SERJEANT SIMONasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether it is true that the Spanish Government has imposed a special war tax upon foreigners resident in Cuba for the purposes of the Civil War in that Island; if so, whether it is true that the Government of Spain has, at the instance of the Imperial Government of Germany, undertaken to exempt Germans in Cuba from that tax; whether Her Majesty's Government have taken any steps to procure a like exemption for British subjects; and, whether there are any treaties between Great Britain and Spain under which such an exemption might be demanded?
  MR. BOURKE: A special war tax, Sir, has been imposed upon all persons resident in Cuba, foreigners included. We understand that the German Consul at Havannah has received instructions from his Government to protest against
  868
  the payment of this tax, but it does not appear that the exemption has been allowed. We are in communication with the German Government on the subject with a view to joint action, if possible. As to the third part of the Question, whether there are any Treaties between Great Britain and Spain under which such exemption might be demanded, that is exactly the point at issue—or one of the points at issue—between the two Governments. The House may be assured that whatever rights we can claim by Treaty for British subjects will not be lost sight of.

EDUCATION (IRELAND)—RESULTS EXAMINATION.—QUESTION.
MR. O'REILLYasked the Chief Secretary for Ireland, in reference to the alleged delays in certifying and paying for results in National Schools in Ireland, Whether it is the fact that the following schools were examined and paid at the dates stated:—

Examined for Results.

Results Paid.

Examination Rolls returned.

1. Edgeworths-town Male School

Mar. 1875

Dec. 1875

Jan. 1876

2. Edgeworths-town Female School

do.

do.

Oct.

do.

Nov. 1875

3. Monedarragh Male School

July

do.

do.

do.

do.

do.

4. Monedarragh Female Sc.

do.

do.

Mar. 1876

Oct.

do.

and, if so, what were the causes of this delay?
SIR MICHAEL HICKS-BEACH: Sir, the dates given in the hon. Member's Question are, I believe, substantially accurate. I have already informed him of the main reason for the exceptional delay in making these payments in 1875—namely, that it was not until an advanced period of October that the Commissioners of National Education knew what Unions had become contributory under the National Teachers' Act of last Session, and the payments for results were necessarily delayed until this was ascertained. There were, however, special causes in addition to this for delay in three of the four cases quoted by the hon. Member. The Report of the Edgeworthstown male school

869
was very unfavourable, and had to undergo special consideration before payment was made. The issue was, that the teacher was very severely reprimanded and warned that if the next Report were unsatisfactory he would be fined. There was a correspondence with the Inspector about the payment to the Monedarragh male school; and the very long delay in making the payment to the female school at the same place was mainly due to the manager of the school. The receipts, though issued to him in October, were never returned by him. In March, the Commissioners wishing to save the teachers from the total loss of the payment, sent duplicate receipts, and on the return of these the payment was made. The examination rolls are returned as rapidly as possible after the payments have been made and the statistics abstracted. The really important knowledge required by the teacher—namely, the result of the examination as shown by the promotion of the pupils from class to class, is furnished to him within a week of the examination by the Inspector.

THE SLAVE TRADE IN THE RED SEA.

  QUESTION.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFasked the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether Her Majesty's Government has received any reports bearing upon the subject of the Slave Trade in the Red Sea; and, whether there is reason to believe that the Egyptian officials have unfairly exercised the quarantine regulations against British trading steamers for the purpose of favouring their own flag and preventing a knowledge transpiring of the traffic in slaves carried on at the ports of the Red Sea?
  MR. BOURKE: Sir, we have received a great number of Reports upon the subject of the Slave Trade in the Red Sea. With regard to the quarantine regulations generally, I have nothing to add to the answer I gave the other day to my hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Mr. Twells), but as to these regulations being made for the purpose of "preventing a knowledge transpiring" of the traffic in slaves in the Red Sea, it is hardly safe for me to assert that these regulations are made for that purpose. I would hope that they are not; but the fact is undoubted
  870
  that the quarantine regulations as at present administered have a very injurious effect upon legitimate trade carried on in British vessels, and that the visits of British vessels cannot but be unpalatable to all persons, whether in authority or not, who are interested directly or indirectly in the traffic in slaves.

NAVY—H.M.S. "VANGUARD."

  QUESTION.
  DR. CAMERONasked the First Lord of the Admiralty, Whether it is true, as stated in the "Standard" of the 10th of last April, that a Contract for the raising of the "Vanguard" had at that date been concluded between the Admiralty and a French Engineer; whether the Engineer in question was a Monsieur L. Othon; whether operations have been commenced under that Contract; and, whether it is true, as now stated in the newspapers, that the Admiralty have resolved to adopt the plan of a Dr. Rutherford and are again advertising for tenders; and, if so, whether the former Contract with the French Engineer has been rescinded?
  MR. HUNT: Sir, no contract was concluded with M. Othon, and the negotiations with him have terminated. Communications are going on between the Admiralty and two other parties who tendered for raising the ship in reply to a public advertisement; but no contract has yet been made.

  THE DOMINION OF CANADA—BRITISH COLUMBIA.—QUESTIONS.
  MR. ALDERMAN M'ARTHURasked the Under Secretary of State for the Colonies, Whether the agreement entered into by the Dominion of Canada with the Province of British Columbia, as arranged by the Earl of Carnarvon in 1874, is being carried out, more especially that part relating to the construction of a Railway in British Columbia and Vancouver's Island; whether the Dominion of Canada did not, on the 13th of June 1873, by an order of the Governor General in Council, nominate and fix the terminus of the Canadian Pacific Railway to be at Esquimault in Vancouver's Island, and call upon the Province of British Columbia to convey to them a strip of land twenty miles in width along the proposed line of Railway; and whe-

  871
  ther the Province of British Columbia did not, in obedience thereto, comply with the said order to the satisfaction of the Dominion Government; and whether the land so placed at the disposal of the Dominion has not remained so up to the present time; whether the Dominion Government did not in 1875 cause surveys to be made of a considerable portion of the Esquimault Nananimo section of the Railway, and, having purchased in England a quantity of steel rails, cause them to be shipped for and delivered in Vancouver's Island for the purposes of that section of the Railway; whether the Dominion Government have not lately publicly announced that they have abandoned their intention of making the Esquimault Nananimo portion of the Railway; whether any intimation has been received by Her Majesty's Government from the Legislature or Government of British Columbia expressing a desire to secede from the Dominion of Canada; and what reply, if any, has been given thereto; and, whether Her Majesty's Government will lay upon the Table of the House any Correspondence between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the Dominion of Canada and the Government of British Columbia since 1st January 1875 on this subject?
  MR. J. LOWTHER: I am afraid, Sir, it would be quite impossible within the ordinary limits of an Answer to a Question to afford an adequate explanation to the House of the circumstances of this case, which are attended with considerable difficulty, while a simple answer to the hon. Gentleman's series of Questions would give an altogether incorrect impression of the matter. I will therefore confine myself to stating that it has been arranged that Lord Dufferin shall shortly visit the Province, and until the result of his visit is known, it would be very inexpedient to enter into any discussion of the points raised in these Questions. There is, however, one of the hon. Gentleman's Questions—the fifth, I think, it is in the category—to which it is advisable that I should at once give a direct reply—namely, the Question—
  "Whether any intimation has been received by Her Majesty's Government from the Legislature or Government of British Columbia expressing a desire to secede from the Dominion of Canada; and what reply, if any, has been given thereto?"
  872
  I am happy to say that no such intimation has ever been received by Her Majesty's Government.

PUBLIC WORKS LOAN COMMISSIONERS—ROAD TRUSTS (SCOTLAND).

  QUESTION.
  MR. ELLICEsaid, he had a Question to put which he had given Notice for last week, but circumstances had then induced him to postpone it. His right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had consented to answer it on the present occasion. He must be allowed to say, in explanation of the Question, that an Act of Parliament had been passed last year similar to another Act previously passed for England, authorizing the Public Works Loan Commissioners to grant loans in Scotland for sanitary purposes at a reduced rate of interest. In order to put Scotland in point of time on a perfect equality with England, the Act gave a retrospective power. It permitted a reduced rate of interest on loans granted subsequently to the passing of the English Act. Applications in consequence were made to the Public Works Loan Commissioners, and the Question he now wished to put was with reference to the statement by the Public Works Loan Commissioners, in reply to applications, that it is not their practice, without the consent of the Treasury, to vary the terms upon which their loans have been advanced; and, Whether it is the intention of the Treasury to consider applications with the view of authorizing the Public Works Loan Commissioners, if they see fit, to exercise the powers so conferred upon them by the Act of Parliament?
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,in reply, said, he doubted whether the hon. Gentleman was quite aware of the peculiarities of the position in consequence of the passing of the Act last Session to take away from the Treasury, as far as they could, the power they previously had of reducing by their own authority the terms on which loans might be made by the Public Works Loan Commissioners. They desired to divest the Treasury of that power, and he believed they had done so. The answer of the Public Works Loan Commissioners referred to the practice under the previously existing state of things up to April last; but the Treasury was in communication with the Public Works

  873
  Loan Commissioners on the subject of advances to Scotland, and he hoped they would arrive at a satisfactory conclusion.

  TURKEY—THE REVOLTED PROVINCES—REPORTED OUTBREAK OF HOSTILITIES.—QUESTION.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: With the permission of the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury, I wish to ask him, Whether the Government have received any intelligence respecting the reported outbreak of hostilities between Turkey and Servia, the Herzegovina and Montenegro; and, if the report be well founded, whether he does not think the time has arrived when the Papers relating to the recent negotiations on this subject may be presented to the House?
  MR. DISRAELI: Mr. Speaker, Sir, Her Majesty's Government received intelligence yesterday, late in the afternoon, from the Queen's Ambassador at Constantinople, that the Servians had crossed the frontier with 30 guns; and about the same time they received news from Her Majesty's Consul at Ragusa, that he had heard that the Prince of Montenegro had declared war and left Cettigne, and placed himself at the head of his troops. But we have not received to-day any direct information from what I am afraid may be called the seat of war. That is the last and most authentic news in our possession. With regard to the Question of the noble Lord respecting Papers, unquestionably it must be felt by, and certainly it is felt by, Her Majesty's Government, that, the negotiations between the Porte and its subjects and vassals having terminated, the time has arrived when the Papers should be presented to the House; and every effort will be made to place them on the Table as soon as possible. At the same time, the House will kindly remember that the Papers are voluminous, and there are some among them which cannot be printed without consulting Foreign Powers.

TURKEY—THE EASTERN QUESTION.

  OBSERVATIONS.
  MR. E. JENKINS: I beg, Sir, to give Notice of a Question which I intend to bring on to-morrow at any time of
  874
  the day or night that I may obtain an opportunity of doing so. As the matter is one of transcendant importance, and as the Leaders of this House have not thought proper to take any immediate action in regard to it, I ask the indulgence of the House while I make a brief statement, and to put myself in Order I will move the Adjournment of the House.
  MR. SPEAKERintimated that the hon. Member could not enter upon any debate upon giving Notice of a Question.
  MR. E. JENKINS: I shall conclude with a Motion.
  MR. J. R. YORKErose to Order and submitted that the hon. Member could not make a speech upon giving Notice of a Motion.
  MR. SPEAKER: I must hear what the hon. Member has to say before I can decide whether he is out of Order or not.
  MR. E. JENKINS: The news that has been received in this country within the last few hours has created every where the greatest anxiety, and I believe I am not incorrect in stating that the anxiety in the country outside is very great indeed as to the course likely to be pursued by Her Majesty's Government with relation to the affairs of Turkey. I also believe I express the feeling of hon. Members on both sides of the House when I say that whatever our opinions may be as to the policy pursued by Her Majesty's Government, we feel that matters are so serious, and have arrived at such a crisis, that we are entitled to ask the Government for some further and more real explanation than has been promised to us this afternoon. I have carefully followed the course of affairs, and up to this present moment, so far as I am able to judge from the information that has been received by the papers, I am prepared to say that I think that the Government have pursued a course that I could support. [Murmurs.] That, perhaps, is the greater reason why I shall now be allowed to say
  MR. CALLANrose to Order. He wished to know whether it was not an evasion of the Rules of the House to get up a discussion upon such an important question, and make a statement without Notice?
  MR. SPEAKER: The hon. Member says that he intends to conclude with a Motion, and I cannot say that he is out

  875
  of Order, though the course which he proposes to pursue, no doubt, is highly inconvenient. The hon. Member stated that he proposes to give Notice of a Question for to-morrow, as I understood, and he cannot at the same time do that, and move the Adjournment of the House.
  MR. E. JENKINS: I propose, Sir, to follow the course that you have indicated and to keep strictly within the rules of Order, but I appeal to the House, for I believe it will, upon consideration of the facts, come to the conclusion that we are at this moment placed in one of the most tremendous crises that has occurred in Europe during this century. Is it improper then for an independent Member to ask leave, in such circumstances, to make a brief statement? I think I shall be able at the proper time to show that the grounds on which I am acting are not altogether insufficient, but the only thing to which I wish to allude at this moment is this. The correspondence that has been sent to the public Press this morning contains a statement of the utmost importance. The news comes from Vienna—
  LORD FRANCIS HERVEY: I rise to Order. The hon. Member commenced by giving a Notice of Motion which he has not yet withdrawn, and I appeal to you, Sir, whether he is entitled to raise a discussion of this kind in this irregular way.
  MR. E. JENKINS: I am sure the noble Lord is aware I am pursuing a course that is strictly in Order. I am not now going to give Notice of my Question. ["Move now!"] I have stated that I will conclude with a Motion, and I would not ask the House to listen to me if I did not feel that I was acting under a deep sense of responsibility. It is stated in the public Press this morning that Her Majesty's Government were at this moment in direct negotiations with Russia with reference to the action to be taken with regard to the affairs of Turkey; and that two alternative propositions had been submitted. It is stated that—
  "Already last year Russia favoured the idea of giving an autonomy to these Provinces similar to that enjoyed by Servia and Roumania, and in the negotiations which have been going on of late with. England this idea which had been abandoned has been revived by Russia. There seems to be no objection to the idea of such autonomy on the part of the British Go-
  876
  vernment. On the contrary, it was accepted conditionally as an eventful mode of solution. As before, so now, the view of the British Government is that the Turks ought to be allowed time and full freedom to carry out the pacification, if need be, by armed force, and only, if they should not succeed in mastering the insurrection with all its possible ramifications, then the Powers should step in and propose an arrangement on the basis of giving autonomy to these Provinces."
  The course Her Majesty's Government appeared to favour was that the Turks ought to be allowed to carry out their policy, if need be, by armed force. Now, I wish to draw the attention of the House to the fact that whereas we have from Her Majesty's Government no authoritative statement of the course which they are pursuing at this moment, it appears to be known in Vienna and is authoritatively stated in the Press of this country. I therefore feel justified in calling attention to the fact and in asking Her Majesty's Government if they are prepared to give us fuller and further information. With the permission of the House I will withdraw the Motion for Adjournment.
  MR. SPEAKER: I informed the hon. Member that he was quite irregular in what he was doing unless he concluded with a Motion, and he said he would do so, but now he informs the House that he does not propose to make that Motion. ["Move!"]
  MR. E. JENKINS: If in consequence of my unacquaintance with the Rules of the House I have inadvertently, in my desire to save time, committed an error, I hope that both sides of the House will forgive me. ["Move, move!"] I move that this House do now adjourn.
  MR. BIGGARseconded the Motion.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Edward Jenkins.)
  MR. DISRAELI: Sir, in answer to she noble Lord opposite (the Marquess of Hartington) I promised the House cheerfully, on the part of the Government, that the proper time having now arrived—namely, the conclusion of these negotiations, which both sides of the House agreed it was but fair that the Sultan should have a fair chance of carrying out—the Government would lay the Papers upon the Table of the House, and they are now prepared to do so with the utmost promptitude possible. When

  877
  these Papers are laid before the House and read dispassionately, I have no doubt the House will come to a wise conclusion upon them; but, on the part of Her Majesty's Government, and for the general interests of the country, I must express a hope that the opinion of the House will be formed upon the authentic documents which, upon the responsibility of the Government, are placed upon the Table of the House and submitted to the consideration of hon. Members, and not upon anonymous articles in the papers from the pens of "Our own Correspondents, "who are now sprinkled over all the capitals of Europe. I could not collect, on account of the murmur in the House, exactly what the statement was which the hon. Member read, but I heard some opinions imputed to the Government as their matured policy, and I heard them for the first time. Part of what I did hear appeared to be too ridiculous for belief, though it may have been founded on the gossip which is always circulating wherever diplomatic proceedings are being carried on. I put it to the House that there is no wish on the part of the Government to conceal anything from the House, except what they believe it is for the public interest that reserve should be maintained. We have arrived at a period in these transactions when, with scarcely an exception, we can place before the House the Papers that have been exchanged between the different Courts. Having before it the authentic documents, for which the Government is responsible, the House will be in a position to form an opinion, and all I ask the House is that they will form their opinions from such documents offered on such responsibility, and not from anonymous articles in the newspapers.
  MR. JOHN BRIGHTsaid, he thought hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House were inclined to deal hardly with the hon. Member for Dundee. They had heard from the right hon. Baronet the Member for Tamworth (Sir Robert Peel) that he had been in the House 30 years; but he (Mr. Bright) had been a Member for even a longer time, and he remembered scores of instances in which, on some emergency, hon. Members on both sides had moved the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of bringing forward a specific question. If ever there was a case in
  878
  which it might be excused, or, at least, justified, it was the occasion which now presented itself. He was not going to blame the right hon. Gentleman or his Colleagues for not having stated all that had transpired between the Powers with reference to this great question; but he thought that when, as somebody said the other night, the Session was nearly at its close—that in about a month from that time those benches would be very thinly occupied—that these Papers, which were said to be very voluminous, would not be laid upon the Table of the House for a week, or probably a fortnight—that then there would be very little time left to discuss them. He should have been very glad if the right hon. Gentleman had communicated something himself to the House. He knew all about it. He knew how great must be the anxiety in the country with regard to it, and he could, in a quarter of an hour or less, tell the House and the country probably everything they wished to know. For instance, he could tell them how it was that, having agreed to the Andrassy Note, the Government thought it necessary not to agree to the Berlin Note. He made no charge against the Government, neither did he blame them; it might be they had done right; he hoped it would prove to be so. Still, it would have been a satisfaction to the House and the country to know what there was in the Berlin Note that was so far from the Andrassy Note that the Government were able to consent to the one and were not able to concur in the other. It would, moreover, have been a satisfaction to have known, as the Government were not willing to agree with the other Powers in the Berlin Note, that they had some other—it might be some wise and better—policy which they offered to the Powers in substitution for that with which they could not agree. He was sure the House and the country would be very glad to know this, and nobody would be more glad than he to know that the Government behaved with such wisdom as one hoped from them in so grave a crisis. Every hon. Member on both sides was anxious that the Government should do that on that great question which was consistent with the honour of the country and the desire for peace; but when we looked back at what oc-

  879
  curred in 1854, when the Government, according to one of its chief officers, drifted gradually and—he was afraid to use the word which rose to his lips—discreditably into a sanguinary struggle, we could not help but have our fears, and he at any rate felt, as one of the great Council of the nation, that they had a right to be taken into consultation and to consider the matter. They had a right also to have an opinion, and to express it, before the country was irrevocably committed to a policy which they might find it necessary to condemn. As to that, he would only say that if the policy of the Government was that of maintaining the integrity of the Ottoman Empire at the sacrifice of British treasure and British blood, he believed, after the experience of 20 years ago, that no considerable portion of the people of the United Kingdom would be found to support the Government in that policy. Further, if the policy of the Government were to give its countenance, even its moral support, to the Turk, in opposition to the struggles and efforts that were being made by some of the subjects of the Porte to free themselves from its dominion, the people of this country would not support the Government. So far as they were neutral in the struggle, so far as they agreed to leave to itself that great contest, which was inevitable, and must be determined by the forces on the spot, then, he thought, in all probability the great bulk of public opinion in this country would support them. He did not wish to enter into any discussion of the subject, nor to offer any policy of his own, except so far as he had expressed his opinion; but he besought the Government not to pursue a policy that might lead them into all kinds of complexity, such as the Government of 1854 waded into, and then find there was no way out but by a war, which, in his opinion, was unjust in its beginning, disastrous in its course, and ignominious in its conclusion.
  SIR H. DRUMMOND WOLFFsaid, he thought that, under the present circumstances, it would be most disastrous if a discussion on the subject were to take place before the House had had an opportunity of reading the Correspondence which had taken place between Her Majesty's Government and the Powers. The present position with
  880
  regard to the East was in strict analogy with what occurred in 1853. Then discussions, took place on the mere ex parte statements of Ministers, and which did not give correct views of the situation. At the end of that Session, a few minutes before the Prorogation, a Question was put by Mr. Monckton Milnes to Lord Palmerston, who expressed his opinion that things would end peaceably, and on that account Papers were not laid upon the Table. It would be dangerous if a similar course were adopted on the present occasion. There was some similarity between the circumstances then and the present crisis. The Crimean War began on the question of Montenegro; the present complications begun on the question of Servia. The British Fleet was then in Besika Bay; the British Fleet was now in Besika Bay. Instead of the Russians having crossed the Pruth, the Servians had crossed the Drina. He believed the majority of the people of this country, considering that the Government had won a diplomatic triumph, fully ratified the course taken by them. [Hon. Members: What course?] The Government had sent the fleet to Besika Bay. [Laughter.] Hon. Members laughed; but they did not recollect the circumstances that preceded the Crimean War, or they must know that it was now admitted by all Russian diplomatists that if the Fleet had been sent to Besika Bay when Colonel Rose sent for it, the Crimean War would not have taken place. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would not be hurried into a premature discussion on this subject, but that he would produce the Papers as early as possible.
  MR. FAWCETTsaid, the hon. Member who had just sat down was somewhat inconsistent. He deprecated discussion, and then expressed his opinion that the majority of the House would approve the policy of the Government. Now what they wanted to know was, what was the policy of the Government? At present they did not know what it was, and the impression was beginning to spread on these benches, and through them it would be communicated to the country, that the time had come when they ought to know something more of the policy of the Government at that great juncture than they did at that moment. No doubt, as the Prime Minister had said, it would be far better

  881
  that the discussion should be taken when they had the Papers before them, and he was not going to say a syllable about the policy of the Government; but he wished to point out that the question was not simply whether they should have a discussion when the Papers were laid upon the Table, but whether they had any guarantee whatever that the country would not have glided into grave complications before the Papers were laid before the House, and before the House could express its opinions on the policy of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman had used some expressions which would cause uneasiness throughout the country to-morrow. He had said that "the Papers were very voluminous, but before he laid them on the Table foreign Powers must be consulted." Before this Government had embarked upon a grave policy of which the country might disapprove, something more must be done besides consulting foreign Powers. The House of Commons must be consulted; and he thought the right hon. Gentleman should give the House and the country an assurance that voluminous as these Papers were, and whether foreign Powers did or did not place obstacles in the way of their production, before the week had elapsed there would be no further delay, and an opportunity would be given the House of expressing its opinion on the subject. He believed it was the wish of the people of this country that no more English blood should be spilt and English treasure spent in maintaining the integrity of an Empire which he believed could not be permanently maintained, and that England ought not to be compromised by pursuing a policy which he believed would bring upon her disgrace and trouble, and her power ought not to be used against those who were trying to emancipate themselves from a galling and an unendurable thraldom.
  MR. PERCY WYNDHAMsaid, he wished to draw a contrast between the conduct they had seen that evening and the course which was pursued by the present Government when they were in Opposition a few years ago. The right hon. Gentlemen opposite were then conducting negotiations with America which led to the Washington Treaty—negotiations viewed with the greatest distrust
  882
  and dislike by hon. Members on his side of the House. Yet throughout the whole time that those negotiations were going on, the greatest influence was used, and used successfully, to maintain silence on the question until the Government of the day carried their policy to a completion. What had they seen that evening? The Government, no doubt, conducting negotiations of the greatest difficulty and delicacy; and yet the hon. Member for Dundee committed a breach of the Rules of the House by moving its Adjournment after giving a definite Notice of what they were to be asked to discuss.
  MR. E. JENKINSrose to order. He had carefully abstained from giving the Notice.
  MR. PERCY WYNDHAMsaid, the hon. Member began by giving Notice. The Government was carrying on delicate negotiations. ["No, no!"] Anyhow, he only wished to draw attention to the contrast between the conduct of the two Oppositions, for now, when the hon. Member took the course he bad adopted that evening, he was backed up by a right hon. Gentleman on the front bench. The Government had recently gained a diplomatic triumph, and it had secured for this country a feeling abroad to which it had been a stranger for40 years, that they had a Ministry who were capable of upholding the dignity and honour of the nation.
  DR. KENEALYthought the discussion was very inconvenient. It was brought before the House without Notice and without the sanction of the Leaders of the Opposition, who seemed to be Leaders without united followers. He sympathized with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Birmingham (Mr. Bright) in the hope that the Government would not lead the country into a Russian war as the Whig Government did in 1854. The country was not prepared to repeat the folly committed on that occasion. He knew a little about the East. He had no sympathy with what was called the religious question in the East. He believed the Christians of the East were about the worst specimens of humanity extant. He had, however, great sympathy with the feelings of the people of this country, and he believed their feelings were that such an anachronism as the Turkish

  883
  Power in Europe ought not any longer to be supported by British blood and treasure. Turkey must fall, let the right hon. Gentleman opposite do what he pleased. It might be supposed that Ministers were able to read the signs of the times, and the right hon. Gentleman must see that it was impossible to maintain Turkey in Europe. He agreed with the right hon. Member for Birmingham that the discussion of this question should not be postponed till the end of the Session, and he hoped an early opportunity would be afforded the House of considering it. At the same time, he was sorry to hear what the Prime Minister had said upon the question, for it was new to him, and he believed new to the country, that a Minister of England would not lay upon the Table of the House of Commons diplomatic documents of the greatest importance without first asking the sanction of foreign Powers. That was not an English or a great policy, though it might be a convenient policy, and he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would lay the Papers on the Table regardless of what other Powers might think, consulting only the honour and interest of England in the matter.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTON: I only rise, Sir, to say a few words, and I do not propose to detain the House more than a minute or two. There is undoubtedly considerable inconvenience in a discussion of this sort, brought forward without Notice and without materials on which a judgment can be formed. I wish, therefore, to express a hope—of course it would be presumptuous to express more than a hope—that the debate may not be carried very much further. But, Sir, although there is some inconvenience in the course that has been taken, it may not have been taken altogether without advantage. I do not suppose that the Government have ever at any time been under the delusion that the country was not watching the course of events in the East with the utmost anxiety, or that they were prepared to accept with a blind confidence the policy of the Government until they had larger opportunities than they have had of forming an opinion of what that policy has been. But this short discussion, even if it proceeds no further than it has hitherto done, will have removed all possible misconception on these points,
  884
  and will have shown—will have convinced the Government that there is a strong feeling in this House—but not stronger, I am sure, than that which it represents out-of-doors—a strong feeling of the deepest anxiety on this subject and the utmost eagerness to have an opportunity, as soon as possible, of knowing what that policy has been. Without incurring the strictures of the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Cumberland, which, I think, have been hardly deserved, I may appeal to Members of the Government themselves whether they have suffered the slightest embarrassment in these negotiations from hon. Members sitting on this side of the House. It may be true—I do not know whether it is strictly true—that during the course of the American negotiations no formal discussion was ever initiated on the Opposition Benches; but my recollection deceives me very much if the Government of that day was not put repeatedly and very minutely to the question upon points arising in the course of those negotiations. And I believe that this is the first occasion since the opening of Parliament on which any discussion has arisen upon these recent negotiations. It appears to me unreasonable and impossible to expect—to require from the Government any statement of their present policy which they are not disposed at this moment to volunteer to give to the House. Undoubtedly, if the Government thought it would be conducive to the public service, and if they had any information to give to the House as to the course they are at this moment pursuing, that information would be received with the utmost pleasure and satisfaction. It is, however, quite impossible for us who sit on this side of the House to ask the Government to tell us what is the policy they are now pursuing, while we are in ignorance as to the policy which they have been pursuing. All we are entitled to require from them—and on that point I think they do not require any pressure—is to urge on them that these Papers should be presented with the least possible delay, and that the House should be allowed an opportunity as soon as possible of expressing its opinion on the subject.
  MR. DISRAELI: Sir, I must claim the indulgence of the House to explain an expression I used, which to hon.

  885
  Members who sat in previous Parliaments would not have been necessary, but seeing that the expression I used has been misconceived by several hon. Members, I should like to explain. I said that the Papers were voluminous, and that there were some Papers which we could not lay on the Table without previous communication with foreign Powers. That is the procedure which has always been adopted, as the noble Lord opposite and any hon. Members of this House who have any acquaintance with the conduct of affairs must know. That, however, does not mean that we cannot put on the Table of the House despatches in answer to our own. All those Papers are public records of the feelings, policy, and views of the different countries, and can always be produced; but in the course of negotiations of this kind there are confidential communications made by foreign Powers, and it is very often highly necessary for the vindication of our course and as illustrative of our policy that these documents should be published; but the House will see at once that the ancient custom which has always been observed of consulting foreign Powers before confidential communications on their part are laid before Parliament is a very proper and very wise one. The House must feel that otherwise there would be an end to all confidential intercourse with any foreign Power. When we are told that all that the Government have to do is to consult the House of Commons, and not under any circumstances to consult those who are our allies, the only consequence of such a policy would be that all the Papers we could lay on the Table would be documents which the House would soon find were wanting in light and information on many points of the most interesting character. I thought it right to explain the use of a particular phrase which is customary in Parliament, and to vindicate a practice which has been most salutary, and which has been observed by every Minister who has been entrusted with the conduct of affairs in this country.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.

PRISONS BILL.— [BILL 180.]
(Mr. Secretary Cross, Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson.)
PRISONS BILL.— [BILL 180.]

  SECOND READING. ADJOURNED DEBATE.
  Order read, for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed to
  886
  Question [22nd June], "That the Bill be now read a second time;" and which Amendment was,
  To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House, whilst recognizing the necessity of measures being adopted to secure economy and efficiency in the management of Prisons, is of opinion that it would be inexpedient to transfer the control and management of Prisons from Local Authorities to the Secretary of State,"—(Mr. Rylands,)
  —instead thereof.
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  Debate resumed.
  THE LORD MAYOR (Mr. Alderman Cotton)said, the Court of Aldermen and the Court of Common Council of the City had passed resolutions against the Bill, which resolutions had their origin in the feeling that the Home Secretary already possessed sufficient powers to carry out all that was useful in the measure. He had, since the Bill was last under consideration, carefully considered its provisions, and had watched the manner in which it had been received by the municipalities which had held meetings on the subject, and also by the magistrates at quarter sessions. Of the municipalities but few meetings had been held; but as far as he could analyze the results, from a statement in The Times of the number of meetings held for and against the Bill by various municipalities and courts of quarter sessions, it appeared that 25 meetings had been held, of which 13 had voted against the measure, 10 had been indifferent, and two had been neutral. It could, therefore, hardly be said that the measure had been very favourably received by those whom it would most immediately and directly affect. With regard to the magistrates, it was difficult to understand why it was attempted to remove them from the offices which for so many generations they had so well and efficiently filled, and when, as he contended, they constituted the machinery by which the good order and management of the prisons had been carried out. They were constantly replenished by new blood, and as they went with the times they were sure to take the lead in the improvement of prison management. He feared that the Bill would destroy

  887
  the efficiency of the magistracy, and it would, at any rate, impair their self-respect. The working of the Bill would be confided to five Commissioners, to be appointed by the Home Secretary, to work under his sole control. They would have the appointment of sub-Commissioners, and the magistrates would only be allowed to meet and to act when the Home Secretary and the Commissioners thought fit, and to visit the prisons when they might so determine. ["No, no!"] It was, at any rate, as he had stated, so in the Bill. Their decisions would have no force until reported upon by the sub-Commissioners, and submitted to the Commissioners and the Home Secretary. They all knew what the result of such a mode of dealing with business would be. In that House they were accustomed to receive Reports and to make Reports, and when the actual management of prisons was transferred to sub-Commissioners and Commissioners, and to the Home Secretary over all, they could easily imagine the result of such a vast centralization. The indifference and apparently submissive manner of the magistrates was inexplicable to him, and he could only account for it by remembering the late period of the Session and the glowing terms in which the Bill was introduced by the Home Secretary. He trusted the right hon. Gentleman would not press the Bill forward during the present Session, as proper time had not been allowed to consider a measure of such magnitude and importance. If, however, the Government should determine to proceed with it, he trusted that the House would not allow the liberties of the people to be absorbed and neutralized by any Secretary of State. In a letter to The Spectator more than 100 years ago a correspondent advised the editor of that celebrated publication to take care how he meddled with the country squires, for they were the ornament of the English nation—men of good heads and sound bodies. Such advice, however, appeared to be thrown away at the present day, and for the magistracy to have to submit to the action of sub-Inspectors of Prisons was, he thought, a very serious matter. His own opinion was, that the course which was about to be pursued must lead to the destruction of the magistracy, and thus far in a very great degree to the destruction of English liberty. Indeed,
  888
  the attack which was made, through the Bill, on the magistrates of the country astonished him beyond measure, seeing that no censure had or could be passed upon them for anything which they had done, for they had administered the prisons under their charge economically and well. As a magistrate he had no objection to receive the recommendations of the Secretary of State, and he could not conceive why any prisons which ought to be closed might not be closed under the existing authority. He should like to ask, too, if the present was a fitting moment to transfer any charge whatever from the rates to the Consolidated Fund, seeing that that fund was so heavily burdened at the commencement of the Session that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had to increase the Income Tax, and trade at the present moment was so terribly depressed. Another very great objection to the Bill was the enormous amount of patronage it would place in the hands of the Home Secretary. When the appointments of governors of gaols, chaplains, and other officers, with salaries ranging from £150 to £1,200 a-year, was distributed among a large body of magistrates, it was very different to concentrating the whole of the appointments in the hands of the Home Secretary, and that plan seemed almost certain to lead to great abuses, which were sure to cause great discontent. Such patronage would be far better exercised by the magistrates than it ever could be by the Home Office. Neither was it necessary to sweep away so many prisons, and to introduce so much centralization in order to effect some at least of the objects of the Home Secretary, for a uniform scale of diet and clothing could be introduced in the prisons that were retained. As to New gate, it was the most convenient prison for the trial of criminals, who came there from all parts, and who were frequently of the lowest class. Notwithstanding that, however, the total cost for food per week for each prisoner in Newgate was only 2s. 7d. per head, and he defied the governor of any other gaol to feed the prisoners under his charge for a less sum. In the face, he might add, of the report that the Home Office was already greatly overworked, he was surprised to find the Government introducing a measure which would throw upon it so much additional labour. Some municipalities

  889
  had already notified their objection to such a measure, and if time were allowed he felt sure that many more would do the same thing. The plumage of the Lords Lieutenant of counties had been lately to a great extent plucked away from them, for they had been deprived of the right of appointing officers for the Militia and the Volunteers, and it seemed as if they and the magistrates were to be put on one side altogether. For his own part, he was of opinion that, instead of pressing on the Bill, it would be well if a Select Committee were appointed to inquire into and report upon the management, expenditure, and patronage of the Government convict prisons, before Parliament was called upon to take a step which would seriously interfere with the liberties of the people, with the rights long enjoyed of appointing unpaid magistrates, and thus maintaining throughout the whole of the land a zealous, efficient, and influential body of administrators, respected and looked up to in their respective localities. Let it be seen how the work had there been done, and the House would then be better able to judge whether it would be safe to hand over such powers as were now asked for to the Secretary of State. He believed that the complaints of the prisoners would not receive so much consideration if the visiting justices were not interposed between the officers of the gaol and the Home Secretary. They gave considerate attention to those complaints, and at the same time they certainly did not pamper them. He opposed the Bill in the interest of liberty, in the interest of the country generally, and in the interest of the municipalities, which must feel that the measure was a direct attack on their privileges. If a magistrate had no power over the inmates of a gaol, he would soon cease to take any interest in their management. In conclusion, he must express a hope that the House would reject the Bill.
  MR. WHITBREAD,in opposing the Bill, said, he thought it had been put forward as a bait. It had been introduced for three distinct purposes—first, in order to secure uniformity of punishment; secondly, in order to do away with the present duality of government; and, thirdly, in order to secure a more economical management; and he would in regard to these three points read the Bill according to answers given to
  890
  the deputations which waited upon the Home Secretary, and according to the discussions which had taken place upon it during the debate. As he understood it, the right hon. Gentleman argued that the visiting magistrates were not aware of the present position; that if they were, they would see that the Bill left them nearly the same authority in prisons as they possessed now, save that they would have a new master; that instead of making their report as now to the court of quarter sessions, they would in future have to report to the Under Secretary of State for the Home Department. But how was the patronage to be exercised? He was told that the Secretary of State would appoint the governors, and that the visiting magistrates would have in their hands the appointment of the warders. Well, if that were so, who was to deal with the complaints which the governor might make against the warders? Would the magistrates, or would the Secretary of State, have the power of dismissing the offending warder? If the magistrates, then they would again have the evils of duality of government, which it was one of the objects of the Bill to remove, intensified. These and many other points ought to be cleared up before the House assented to the second reading. In reality, the visiting justices were to be left much in the same position that they at present occupied. [Mr. ASSHETON CROSS: No.] Well, if not, he hoped the right hon. Gentleman would tell them so, for they were entitled to know distinctly what their position would be. There might be a great saving in prison administration if the system of centralization were thorough; but the Home Secretary bound himself by the Bill to maintain a prison in every county, leaving out of mind, seemingly, the fact that it was impossible to commence the attainment of real economy or perfection in the classification and treatment of prisoners, unless there were between 300 and 500 prisoners in a gaol. But out of the 40 counties of England there were 8 in which the average number of prisoners under detention was less than 100, while there were 13 other counties in which the average number was between 100 and 200. Thus, in 21 out of 40 counties there would exist the necessity of maintaining a very small prison. Again, in

  891
  Wales there was but one county in which the average number of prisoners under detention exceeded 30, and yet, according to the Bill, there must be a prison in each of the Welsh counties. Beyond that, in Scotland there were only two counties with more than 100 prisoners. The result, therefore, would be that if they were to have a gaol in every county, they would not be able to effect the economy which was anticipated. The right hon. Gentleman ought also to have given the House the estimate upon which his calculation was based that the annual cost of a prisoner would be reduced to £21. As to the saving expected, it was always said, when a new Government Department was started, that it would be sure to work economically, and yet the Estimates increased from year to year. Here the start was not a promising one. Why have a new Prison Board? Why not put these county prisons under the control of the existing Prison Board? The formation of a Prison Board would not conduce to economy, and if economy were taken out of the Bill there would be very little really left. The measure contrived to combine all the evils of centralization without a single advantage. They had been told by the Civil Lord of the Admiralty of the necessity of reforming our local government; but so far from being a reform, the Bill showed a despair of local government. He agreed that ratepayers were entitled to relief, but they would obtain no permanent relief through this measure. Ministers were pledged up to the eyes to strengthen the county organization, and the ratepayers really wanted a voice in the management of their own affairs. Instead of bringing forward a Bill which could not possibly pass in the present year, the Government should look seriously into local organization, the permanent increase of the debt of counties, and the wasteful expenditure which went on. The Leaders of both Parties, he said again, were pledged to endeavour to strengthen county organization, and yet the Home Secretary despaired of creating County Boards which could be entrusted with the management of prisons. In this measure they were endeavouring to please the ratepayers by giving them a sop which would not effect any permanent reduction of their burdens. The measures of the Government upon this
  892
  question were pervaded by no common principle. It was as though one Member of the Government had been told to prepare a Bill on Valuation, another a Bill on Highways, and a third a Prisons Bill, and it almost seemed that those three Members of the Government must then have been shut up in separate rooms and allowed no communication with each other. If there was one thing from which local self-government suffered more than another it was from too many Boards, and yet this year they were threatened with no less than three new Boards. He appealed to the Government whether the time had not arrived for taking up this question in a more comprehensive way, and he suggested that a Royal Commission should be appointed to investigate the whole subject. He protested against a mode of dealing with the question which consisted of adding Board after Board and authority after authority without doing anything really to touch the question of the economy. It was the duty of statesmen to gather up the threads of local government, to give the ratepayers a voice in the management of their affairs, and to place them permanently under a good sound county organization.
  MR. HENLEYsaid, he wished to explain the reasons which rendered him unable to support the Government on the question. This was a proposal on the part of the Government to meet a Resolution of the House which was come to some time ago—that the expense of gaols should not be thrown altogether upon real property. When he looked at the mode in which it was proposed to carry that object into effect, he could not say that he was satisfied either with the reasons given for the change, or with the protection afforded to prisoners by the Bill. A vast constitutional change was proposed, and we ought at least to take care that those unfortunate persons in the custody of the law should have at least as much protection by statute as they had now got. His right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department said, in the first place, that if the prisons were taken into the hands of the Government there would be a general saving of expense—no doubt a very desirable object—and that saving would be brought about by two modes—first, the

  893
  shutting up of a number of small prisons; and, secondly, by a greater amount of labour being obtained from many prisons than was now the case. With regard to the first point, it was impossible not to feel that the shutting up of prisons might cause inconvenience to a great number of persons not convicted, but who were only going to be tried. The Bill provided that there should be at least one gaol in each county. That made provision for the prisoners from counties, but placed those from the boroughs completely at a disadvantage, because it was an enormous disadvantage to a prisoner to be taken 20 or 30 miles away from his home, as the difficulties of communicating with the persons preparing his defence, and the expense, if he were able to bear expense at all, would be enormously increased. Then, as to the question of saving labour, upon which his right hon. Friend dwelt very much. Some time ago, in the county which he represented, when treadmill labour was carried to a greater extent than at present, it was found so to debilitate the prisoners that representations were made, not only from within, but from outside the prison, which led to lowering very much its amount. His right hon. Friend said, with great truth, that prisoners condemned for the same crime to the same period of imprisonment, ought to suffer the same punishment. That was a right principle, no doubt, under the same circumstances; but his right hon. Friend did not take into account the unequal strength of the persons to whom the punishment might be applied. Viewing it in this light, he could not help looking at the state of the prisons where a large amount of labour was exacted; and, when he said he took the whole of Yorkshire, Lancashire, and Middlesex, counties which had nearly half the prisoners of England and Wales, it would be admitted that this was no small induction. There were two things to be considered—first, the amount of work done in those prisons, which was, no doubt, large, and the money earnings were considerable, and if there was no other consideration, that would be admitted to be a very good thing. But there was another consideration. The aggregate number of persons committed in England and Wales in 1874—the last Report we had—was 166,588, of
  894
  which Middlesex, Yorkshire, and Lancashire, contributed 82,500, or nearly half, but of this 82,500 no fewer than 35,000, or 43 per cent, were re-committals. Of the 84,000 furnished by the rest of England and Wales, the total of re-committals was 27,000, or 32 per cent. That certainly did not show a very great advantage in the large prisons. He next looked naturally to the question of health, and he found that whereas in the three counties he had named, out of 82,500, there were no fewer than 51,000 sick, or 62 per cent; in all the rest of England and Wales the sick were only 27,000, or 32 per cent. That was a point on which a satisfactory explanation ought to be given, and he felt very strongly that there was not time now for the consideration this large constitutional measure ought to have before so great a change was made. Then, as to the possible disadvantages of the change which might arise. A man now in prison, if he felt he had any considerable grievance, also felt that he had an opportunity of appealing, in various ways, to the Crown, represented by the Secretary of State, from whom he would obtain an impartial hearing, and if a wrong had been committed it might be repaired. It behoved them to be careful how such a power was done away with. That feeling was an advantage which would be swept away by this change; for, however much the Secretary of State might be disposed to chock anything wrong, still we could never make prisoners believe that it would be the case. Then he came to the rash change the Bill made in the power of the visiting justices, and to his mind the subject was dealt with in a very unsatisfactory manner. The Bill first repealed the whole statutory enactment as to visiting justices, and then it re-enacted their powers. They might imprison, flog, and put in irons; but when they came to the protection of the prisoners the language was very vague, and left almost all to be done by the Secretary of State. No doubt proper rules and regulations would be made; but they should take care that prisoners were not worse off by statute than they now were. How was this to be remedied? They must have one authority in their prisons. With a divided authority it would be impossible to maintain discipline. The

  895
  matter ought not to be left to rules; it should be provided for by statute. It was said that the Secretary of State might be disposed to leave the appointment of subordinate officers to the visiting justices. He thought that would be unpopular, and would tend to set up two authorities without any direct responsibility. There was another point on which he felt strongly. He lived in a county where there was comparatively little crime, and where the prison accommodation was considerably more than double what was required. The natural result would be that their prisons would be filled up from less fortunate districts. Nothing could be more mischievous than bringing a surplus criminal population into prisons such as he had described. Some 12 months ago such a proposal was made to take prisoners from a different county. He then said, whatever was done, they should take care, not only to secure plenty of cell room for their own prisoners, but that in the means of labour also they should keep the two sets of prisoners entirely separate. He did not think it would be fortunate to bring a criminal population among another slightly tinctured with crime. They heard a good deal about education, but they did not want the education of an innocent population in crime. These were the reasons—great as the money bribe was—that disabled him from giving his assent to the principle now proposed, without having a longer period for consideration, and he thought the principle ought not to be affirmed by the House until the question could be considered in all its bearings. If they took such a step in this matter, there would be no going back. For these reasons, though he said so with great reluctance, he was unable to support the second reading.
  SIR JOHN KENNAWAYsaid, he was glad to hear the independent testimony which had been given to the fidelity and discretion with which the magistrates had exercised their duties. The Bill under the notice of the House was an illustration of the saying that we did not know the value of a thing properly until we were about to lose it. He thought the House had to ask themselves how it was that such a measure, which certainly seemed at first sight to take away from the efficiency of the magistrates, was proposed by a Conser-
  896
  vative Home Secretary, apparently with the consent of a large portion of his Party? When they inquired how that was brought about, hon. Members should put themselves in the position of his right hon. Friend, and then they would be reminded that the present Government came into office pledged very largely to remove the inequalities of local taxation, and to alter its unjust incidence, so that charges of an Imperial nature should not be locally levied in the manner of which complaint was made. This Bill had been introduced in accordance with the Resolution moved by the hon. Baronet the Member for South Devon (Sir Massey Lopes); but that was not the only motive that weighed with the Home Secretary. He had been urged to undertake the reform of prison management. The last 10 years had brought about a very different state of things. There had been a large emigration, and, on the other hand, there had been a great increase of trades. They had the experience of the Act of 1865, and the Home Secretary told them that greater reforms might be carried out. They had also to consider the utilization of the labour of prisoners, and the mode of its disposal. Matmaking had been almost universally adopted in prisons; and the practice had caused great complaint in that particular trade as being most unfair to them. Under that system, they wanted for governor not only a man who could maintain order, but a man who knew also how to dispose of the produce of the gaol. Under the Bill the matter would be remedied; for the Government itself would purchase the numerous articles which they wanted from the prisons. They already had the police clothes made in prison, and he trusted that their efforts would to a further extent be successful in this direction. It had been said that all the proposed improvements could be carried out under the existing law, if only the Home Secretary would issue some strong edicts and institute a thoroughly uniform system. But he (Sir John Kennaway) could not agree that that would be possible. The matter was really in the discretion of the magistrates at quarter sessions, and if they were asked to submit to a system of strict rule, they would decline to be responsible for the administration of the prisons. He was glad that by this Bill the Home Secretary

  897
  had shown himself desirous to avail himself of the local knowledge and high character of the magistrates, of whose powers the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) was afraid they were to be deprived. On the contrary, the visiting justices would be in a position to advise upon a great many matters of importance. They would, as before, be responsible for much that was connected with the prison management, and also for the appointment of the minor officers. They had also to thank the Home Secretary for the consideration which, under the Bill, he had shown to the Prisoners' Aid Society. He had no fear that the Bill was inflicting any serious blow upon local self-government, for there would still be ample scope in school boards, highway boards, and county boards for those who desired to serve their country in that way. He was, however, anxious that those who had hitherto borne the burden of prison management should continue to interest themselves in it; and he trusted, therefore, that the Government would consider the suggestions for giving those persons a somewhat more extended patronage both in connection with patronage and also with management. He protested against handing over the whole matter to a central despotism, and it was because the Bill did not involve that result, and for the other reasons which he had given, that he should support the second reading.
  MR. PEASEsaid, that the Bill was divided into two parts; one of which referred to the discipline in prisons, whilst the other included the financial part of the question. Of these, that which related to prison discipline was much the more important, but the two portions touched each other very closely, and neither could well be dealt with to the exclusion of the other. It might be perhaps necessary for the Government to contribute to local burdens, and he believed it was right sense, and it possibly might be right sense, to have the prisons transferred to them; but he did not think that it would be wise to meddle with this question of prisons without going a great deal further into the question of local authority and local areas than they had at present done. Further, he did not believe that the mode in which that was pro-
  898
  posed to be accomplished by the Bill was a judicious one, or that the other results which it proposed to have in view would be obtained by it. The Bill proposed that, with some small exceptions, the Government should manage all and pay all; but he (Mr. Pease) contended that the Home Secretary had not shown that the evils he desired to get rid of could not be remedied under the present system, nor had he shown that the advantages of the proposed change would not be counterbalanced by corresponding disadvantages. As to removal, it was said that changes could then be made which could not now be made; but under Clause 5 of the Act of 1865 the Home Secretary had very considerable power to remove prisoners from one gaol to another, and, if he required more power, the House would gladly give it to him. The right hon. Gentleman recommended his Bill on the ground of the greater classification of prisoners of which it would admit; but the statistics relating to prisoners afforded but little hope of that. There were, he found, 18,000 prisoners in the borough and county gaols of the country, and of those only about 3,000 were in gaol under sentences of above six months. On the other hand, out of the 9,000 committals in the year, only 6,900, or in round numbers 7,000, were for periods of less than six months, while of the latter portion, those sentenced to imprisonment for terms ranging from six months to a year formed by far the larger proportion. They had the large number of 142,000 prisoners annually committed on short sentences, for offences which, to a great extent, were too widely different to admit of much classification. Out of the6,900 committals to which he referred, there were nine gaols in the kingdom that had received 2,800 of that average of prisoners on long sentences, and there could therefore be only 2,000 prisoners distributed in the gaols throughout the country under sentence for offences which admitted of any classification. That being so, they could not hope for any great classification under the Bill of the right hon. Gentleman; but even if there were room for it under the existing system, the right hon. Gentleman could effect it under the provisions of the existing law, or, if those were insufficient, the House would gladly make them more complete.

  899
  He thought the right hon. Gentleman's calculations on the increased value of the productive work of prisoners were equally unsatisfactory. Another object which the Bill was to accomplish was to make uniform the cost of maintenance of prisoners in the different gaols; but the cause of the discrepancies which existed in that respect was nothing else than the want of intercommunication between prison authorities and of a little central supervision. For that defect there was also a cause, which could be readily ascertained and remedied without the necessity for this Bill. The next point on which he based his Bill was uniformity of treatment. That was one of the objects of the Act of 1865, and it was the first time he (Mr. Pease) had heard that that Act had very much failed. There were Inspectors, and if they had anything to do it was to secure uniformity of treatment. He had read the Reports of the Inspectors, and while they were full of microscopic details, they were very empty indeed of matters touching on the great branches of prison discipline. He wanted to know if the new Inspectors would do any better than the old. It seemed to him they were left exactly in the same position with the new as they were with the old. Great cost was to be saved in prison management by turning the whole thing into a high Government Department; but there was no reason to suppose that the Government could manage the matter so much cheaper than the justices had done. They had not shown any great economy in the management of the Post Office or the Telegraph Department. Upon investigation Government prison economy vanished just the same as prison classification vanished, and he had not seen anything to make him believe that the Inspectors would do more duty to the Board than they did under the right hon. Gentleman. He wanted to know how this change of the administration of prisons would affect the numbers in the prisons. There were many cases in which it was a nice question whether there should be fine or imprisonment, and the decision might be somewhat affected by the knowledge that a prisoner would be kept at the expense of the country generally instead of being a burden upon the county rate. If so, he believed the tendency of the Bill would be to increase the number of persons
  900
  sent to gaol rather than decrease it. He was strongly opposed to Government contracts, and he held that if the prisons contracts were all to be managed in London, instead of being shared by the different counties, it would lead not only to centralization of the contracts, but to a decrease in the value of the commodity supplied and an increase in price. He therefore doubted whether the Government could contract for what was wanted in gaols nearly so advantageously as the justices had done. The right hon. Gentleman said the Bill would close about 50 gaols, and there they would effect considerable economy. That was true enough, he believed; and no doubt it might be done, for in Buckinghamshire, for instance, there were two gaols with but 90 prisoners between them, but it was not requisite, he contended, to pass a Bill like the present to provide for the closing of gaols. A very slight change in the existing system giving the Secretary of State the necessary powers would effect that object, and reforms and economies might in that way be satisfactorily carried out. The Commissioners and Inspectors, he might add, who would be appointed under the Bill would have to be paid, and it would, he thought, be very unfair to the Secretary of State and his successors in office if, when so much additional work would be thrown upon them, their salaries also were not increased. In whatever direction he looked, indeed, he saw very great objections to the Bill. It would produce no improvement in the management of our prisons, and give rise to very great increased cost. The visiting justices had very little feeling upon the subject of patronage, but were they prepared to hand it over to the Home Secretary and those who might come after him? He, for one, was not, and under the proposed arrangement the double patronage of the Home Secretary and the visiting justices would not work well. One of the results would be that the Home Secretary would be everlastingly troubled with hungry half-pay officers applying for gaol appointments. All the reforms that had taken place in our gaols had not come from the Government. They had been commenced by a Howard, a Fry, a Buxton, a Gurney, and had been followed up and carried out by the visiting justices, He was

  901
  in favour of reformation, but he was entirely opposed to revolution and to the system of double government which would be created under the Bill, which, besides, would trench upon the great principle of local self-government and departmental control, to which they owed so much of the independence and greatness that characterized Englishmen and the English nation throughout the world.
  MR. J. R. YORKEsaid, the evils of the present system of prison management were great and patent and were becoming intolerable, and the question was whether the Bill was the best remedy for those evils. It had always been pressed upon the Government by local taxation reformers that relief should be given to the local taxpayers; and it was because the Bill was a step in that direction that he considered it both opportune and worthy the support of hon. Members on his (the Ministerial) side of the House. Everyone was agreed in affirming the principle of the Bill, and many of the objections urged against it by the hon. Member for South Durham were applicable to the details of the measure, which he thought could be disposed of in Committee. It secured efficiency, economy, and uniformity of prison discipline, while the ratepayers were satisfied with the financial prospect opened up by the measure. It was, in fact, a continuance of our recent policy in the same direction. A Committee of the House of Lords inquired in 1864 into the discipline and management of our prisons, and the Bill of 1865, founded on their Report, had practically superseded the visiting justices, as far as their individual discretion was concerned. There were three points of view from which the Bill was to be regarded—the point of view of the justices, that of the ratepayers, and that of centralization as compared with local self-government. As to the justices, the Bill had undergone a searching ordeal at quarter sessions; but from a statement handed to him he found that it had been approved definitely at no fewer than 20 quarter sessions, while it was only disapproved, or partially disapproved, at seven. In his own county (Gloucestershire) Mr. Barwick Baker, a most eminent prison reformer, opposed the Bill, among other reasons, because it would put an end to voluntary efforts in the
  902
  matter of prison reform and the treatment of criminals, because country gentlemen would be intruders where they were now lords and masters, and would thus cease to attend to those matters as heretofore; and also because uniformity in prison management was not desirable, crime having its local characteristics, and the criminals of different localities requiring different treatment. These arguments prevailed, and Gloucestershire was one of the counties opposed to the Bill. But if every county were like Gloucestershire, and if every magistrate were like Mr. Barwick Baker, there would be no need for the Bill. In his opinion, every county ought to be brought up to the same standard, a result which could not be obtained without some such measure as this and without uniformity. The Home Secretary had manifested, by the concessions he had promised, a desire to consider the susceptibilities of the visiting justices, and had shown an anxiety, as far as was compatible with the principle of the Bill, to retain among them an interest in their work. The right hon. Gentleman had considered the importance of having the services of an independent body of local men to whom prisoners could have access, so that the public might be satisfied that any complaints of ill-treatment which the prisoners had to make would be looked into. Governors of prisons, however, would very much prefer one central authority to the many masters they had at present, and they would thereby obtain a better prospect of promotion and a readier recognition of any services they were able to give. As to the ratepayer, the Bill was a further step in the direction of relief to this poor beast of burden, now so overladen. Some relief had already been afforded to him by the present Government in the matter of police and lunatics, and the administration of justice was a matter in every way deserving to be dealt with by the central authority. Coming to the constitutional point of view, he denied that the magistrates were in any sense representatives of the ratepayers, except so far as they were ratepayers themselves. They were appointed by the Lord Lieutenant, and therefore in that respect owed nothing to the ratepayers, and were perfectly independent of them. He declined to regard the Bill as a blow to local self-government. No doubt

  903
  local self-government at certain stages of a nation's growth and history was a healthy and sound development of national energy; but with the growth of population and new social combinations a time arrived when centralization became absolutely necessary to the due administration of national affairs. He could not see that we ran any risk by accepting the Bill, while he did see a certain and very real amount of good that would be gained by accepting it. He should therefore give it his hearty support.
  MR. MUNTZsaid, he was puzzled with the Bill. Who had asked for it? who had petitioned in its favour? He could not find out. All that he had heard in its favour was, that under the present system there was a want of efficiency, uniformity, and economy. No doubt there might be more of each, but that could be done without the centralizing provisions of the Bill. Hon. Members would be grievously disappointed if they expected that the Bill would conduce to economy. The Bill cast a slur upon magistrates, who were, as a whole, a most estimable and intelligent body of men, but they did not understand the measure. Why take away from them the power of managing their own affairs? Was not that a slur? If his hon. Friend the Member for Leicester (Mr. Taylor) had brought in the Bill he could have understood it; and doubtless some of the Sunday papers expressed their delight at it. He hoped that it would be withdrawn, and the whole subject re-considered before next Session. It handed over the whole country to Commissioners and deprived magistrates of the local influence and powers which they had as a body most usefully and most zealously exercised for the national benefit in their respective localities. The right hon. Gentleman must feel that the response to his Bill, alike in the boroughs and in the counties, had been of the most discouraging kind. He held in his hand a memorial agreed to by the magistrates of Birmingham unanimously, which was directly against the Bill. They had a large population, a large gaol, and not a few prisoners—for it was built to contain 400 persons, and he was sorry to say it was full—but they asked for no assistance from the Government; all they wanted was to be allowed to manage their own affairs. Neighbour-
  904
  ing corporations like that at Warwick were of the same mind. But now, for a farthing in the pound, hon. Gentlemen were about to sell their birthright. The hon. Gentleman who had last spoken (Mr. Yorke) was not afraid of centralization. But what had been the result wherever centralization had been adopted? It was proposed to begin with the gaols, the next step would be to the county and then to the borough police, for they, too, were for the protection of life and property. He had great confidence in the sagacity and good sense of the Home Secretary, but he was much surprised that he should ever have introduced a Bill of this sort. It was totally different from anything he could have expected. Knowing the magistrates of England so intimately, as the right hon. Gentleman must do, it seemed incredible that he should treat them as they were treated in this Bill. He should give the Bill his unqualified opposition at every stage, for he believed it was the thin, end of the wedge of centralization. He asked the House to take warning by what had occurred in France—the country where, from the Pyrennees to the Rhine, every policeman was appointed by the Government. A. mob might destroy the Houses of Parliament and burn Buckingham Palace, but the provinces would not bow down to the mob. Our local police and Militia would assemble and join together to put down disorder; and, was not that worth something?
  MR. LEIGHTONbelieved the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) and the hon. Member for Bedford (Mr. Whitbread) had stated their individual opinions rather with regard to this Bill than those of the magistrates throughout the country. The right hon. Gentleman, the Lord Mayor had expressed his surprise that the country gentlemen of England had remained so quiet after this Bill was brought forward; but the reason was they were satisfied with the Bill of the Government. If they believed that a blow was thus struck at the weal of England he was sure that they would have made the country ring with their complaints. It had been said that only a certain number of quarter sessions had expressed a modified approval of this Bill. Speaking for Salop and Montgomery,

  905
  where he happened to act as a magistrate, he could say the Bill was approved with one dissentient voice in Montgomeryshire, where it was desired that certain appointments should be left in the hands of the magistrates—and he understood the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State was disposed to concede that point. And Salop had some right to be heard on this occasion, for it had absolutely no debt at all. It was said the Bill cast a slur on the magistrates and country gentlemen of England, but that was not the case; and he begged to say that the country gentlemen of England performed their duties not for the sake of a little local importance, but from a simple sense of duty, and he repudiated the idea that they desired a retention of power for the sake of giving themselves importance; and he was quite sure that if those duties could be performed more effectually by any other body they would gladly see their own power at an end. He believed that the Bill would secure a better classification of prisoners, greater efficiency in regard to prison discipline, and greater economy. ["No, no!"] He accepted the statement of the Home Secretary in preference to the statements of those hon. Gentlemen who objected to the measure. Questions often arose between friendly Governments as to the treatment of foreign prisoners, and he therefore urged that the principle of supervision independent of the managers which was adopted in regard to lunatic asylums, should be extended to all prisons, and that all alike, including convict establishments, should be visited and inspected by committees of local magistrates. He further suggested that it should be obligatory on the committee of visiting justices to report not only privately to the Home Secretary, but every quarter to their own court of quarter sessions, such reports when adopted to be sent to the Home Secretary and published as a Parliamentary Paper every year. In this manner the light of publicity would be thrown upon the internal management of prisons, the interests of the prisoners would be protected, the hands of the Government would be strengthened, and an encouragement would be given to prison officials by their work being regularly brought under the notice of a body of independent and intelligent gentlemen.
  906
  It would also be an advantage to many magistrates to have the opportunity of seeing the different ways in which varying sentences were carried out, and thus realizing the operation of the law which they were called upon to administer. Such names as Howard and Barwick Baker suggested that it was from the outside unprofessional world that reforms in the management of prisons had mainly come; and, although he admitted to the full what had been accomplished by Sir Walter Crofton, Sir Joshua Jebb, and Colonel Du Cane, they seemed to have broken professional and official restraints, to have accepted useful suggestions from any source, and to have encouraged the co-operation of non-professional workers. A stereotyped system might, perhaps, be worked best by a high class of officials; but, as long as the repression of crime remained an unsolved problem, so long he hoped the Government would be willing to adopt to its fullest extent the mixed system of official management and unprofessional independent visitation and inspection which were provided for by this Bill, and which he believed to be the surest security to the public for the improvement and development of our prison system.
  SIR HENRY JACKSONsaid, that the division on the Bill would probably exhibit as much cross voting as any division of the Session. He should support the second reading, and hoped that the Bill would be passed this Session, for he recognized in it the first step towards the reform of our local government, on which so much stress had been laid both by the opponents and the supporters of the measure. Grave doubts had been expressed whether this measure would secure economy; but it was obvious that a large reduction in the number of prisons must certainly diminish establishment charges, and that uniformity in the management of prisons must produce better results than the present fantastic differences which had been so often alluded to during the debate. As to the attitude of the magistrates being adverse for the Bill, he, for one, would not believe that English magistrates would shrink from doing their duty, even although they might be subject to diminution of dignity or loss of patronage. With regard to the visiting justices, whose treatment was one of the

  907
  principal complaints against the Bill, except that they were to be called "a visiting committee of justices" instead of "visiting justices," he failed to see that the Bill would make any substantial alteration in their functions or powers, for the Bill conferred upon the visiting committee all the powers that were now vested in visiting justices by the Act of 1865, and under their new name the same persons would retain all the disciplinary authority which they now exercised, and from which he should have thought they would be glad to be relieved. The only power which would be interfered with was the power of expenditure, and this had belonged to them in theory rather than in practice, and it certainly was not one which falls within any proper definition of self-government, or one which hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House should be desirous of maintaining. Moreover, he was doubtful whether the justices ought to be anxious to retain it. No doubt there were signs of strong opposition to the Bill. Some of the objections the Home Secretary had foreseen, and he had rightly anticipated that they would come from places where prisons are maintained. Among others, the Town Council of Nottingham had presented a Petition against the Bill, and a very instructive document that Petition was. The framers of it seemed to think that an appeal to the memory of our ancient liberties would always find favour with the House, and they therefore raised the cry of no interference with local self-government, but they could not fail to see that government by magistrates appointed by the Grown hardly came within that idea, and so they suggested that it was for the interests of the community that some men of merit should be entrusted with certain powers over their fellow-citizens, provided they exercised them under the eyes of a Town Council; and in this way they alleged that they now had some power of controlling the expenditure, and they expressed a belief that the administration of gaols by visiting justices acting under the eyes of town councils would be far more economical than by the Government. That and similar Petitions had confirmed him in the belief that a good deal of the opposition to the Bill was based on the interference which it would exercise with the pur-
  908
  veying of meat and stores for these prisons, but he hoped that the Home Secretary would not be discouraged by that species of opposition. Then it was said that this plan would tend to centralization, and to some hon. Members this was sufficient to condemn any measure. But they must not be misled by names. Many functions of Government were better discharged by a central authority, and was not the management of prisons one of them? Certainly, the question of prison management was in no sense one of local self-government, and in what sense could it be said to involve self-government at all? The Act of 1865 prescribed a code within which the visiting justices were obliged to move, and they formed, in fact, the local machinery for carrying out the Act. Doubtless that Act left a certain amount of discretion within the general rules which it prescribed, but that very discretion had resulted in the discrepancies in discipline which called for the present Act. The administration of justice was in every respect an Imperial function. Our criminal law was administered in the name of the Crown, and the Courts of Quarter Sessions were the Queen's Courts, and administered justice in her name. By the Common Law, all prisons were vested in the Sovereign, the legal estate of the gaols being, according to Black-stone, in the Crown. The gaoler had always been the officer, not of the county but of the Sheriff, and the Sheriff was the servant of and was appointed by the Crown. That the prisons should ever have passed under local management was, to a certain extent, an anomaly, and was probably adopted by Parliament, with the consent of the Crown, merely for greater convenience and for facilitating the discharge of the administration of the law, which had always been the first duty of the Sovereign power. What substantial difference would be effected if this Bill should pass? He could not find a single point, except in regard to the question of patronage, and that could not be really an essential matter of self-government. The officers who would have to carry out the Act ought to be, and under this Bill would be, trained men, and, as there would be opportunities for promotion and a much larger field for selection, he could not doubt that the civil servants whom this Bill would provide would be much

  909
  better qualified to carry on the government of a prison than the present prison staff. He wished to say nothing disrespectful of any persons connected with any gaol in the country; indeed, he could bear testimony to the efficiency and zeal of many governors of prisons: but still he thought that a better officer would probably be secured by selection from trained employées, than by an active canvass on behalf of some retired colonel or captain at quarter sessions. In regard to the minor appointments, the Government had shown a disposition to give way. No arguments against the Bill had been used which could in any sense counterbalance the great benefits of economy, efficient management, and last, but not least, relief of local burdens. At the last General Election a great and powerful Party came into office so intimately connected with the landed interest that it was hoped they would be able to deal with matters of local self-government and local taxation more successfully than the somewhat heterogeneous Party which had previously occupied the Ministerial benches. The latter had, indeed, great ideas and grand schemes which he hoped they would one day be able to carry out; but in their very greatness would be found the chief difficulty in carrying them. He and others, however, had hoped for some consolation in their Party defeat, in the expectation that the Party opposite, who out of office had made this question a Party cry, would in office seriously grapple with it. They could do what the Liberal Party could not do. Hon. Members opposite would follow the present Prime Minister wherever he would lead them, and no more powerful Government for such questions as these was to be hoped for. Well, then, when this Government, after a long delay, fairly attempted to take a step, which if simple was at least effective, and if not comprehensive was at any rate practical, the Opposition would have none of it, because it was only a small measure and not part of a great scheme, and hon. Gentlemen opposite either possibly supported or opposed it because it interfered, forsooth! with their vested interests in patronage and power. Before long the establishment of County Boards would be a practical and a pressing question, and could any one deny that their establishment would be facilitated by the transfer
  910
  of the prison jurisdiction to the State. That would be one element removed from the chaos with which the Minister, whoever he might be, who took up that question would have to deal. If the Bill went into Committee there were one or two points of detail to which the Home Secretary would probably give his attention. Amongst others he hoped that the right hon. Gentleman would adopt Clause 53 of the Act of 1865, which allowed any magistrate acting in his jurisdiction to enter any prison at any time to make a report. He regarded the measure as a Bill not merely to relieve the land from burdens, but as one for the improvement of our prison laws, and he hoped the Government would be able to pass the measure during the present Session, because he, for one, could not find in it any of those dangers of centralization which hon. Members had denounced.
  MR. HARDCASTLEsaid, that the question raised by the Bill was whether the magistrates had done their duty in respect to the prisons well or badly. If they had done their duty well, there could be no pretext for passing this Bill; if badly, there could be no question that it was a slur and rebuke upon them. In his opinion, they were not deserving of either. It certainly could not be argued that the business of the magistrates had been badly managed universally; and although a saving might be effected by the union of small gaols generally, yet in certain districts, and especially in those counties the prisons of which were now well conducted, the result of the Bill would, he was afraid, be anything but economical, as the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department expected. In the county of Lancashire, in particular, with which he was connected, that measure would, he feared, inflict a very considerable fine on a large section of the taxpayers. The expenditure under that Bill would probably amount to a farthing in the pound on the income tax, whereas at present in Lancashire the corresponding burden was less than a farthing in the pound on rateable property. There was a great difference between paying a farthing in the pound on a rental of, say, £40 and paying a farthing in the pound on, say, £200 of one's yearly income, even allowing for the new exemptions from the income

  911
  tax. The Bill took the management of the gaols from the magistrates and transferred the patronage connected with them to the Government. The minor appointments, it appeared, were still to continue to be vested in the magistrates; but he was inclined to think that so much inconvenience would arise from dividing the patronage, that he doubted whether that arrangement would work well. It was said that the services of the visiting justices would be retained, but such experience as they had was opposed to this hope. At Lewes they had been invited to visit the Government Prison, and had done so; but the result was that they practically found themselves so much snubbed by the Government officials that they had all, with one exception, declined to perform that duty. If they were to have independent governors and officers appointed by Commissioners and superintended from London it was obvious that magistrates who took an interest in their duties would feel that their power for good was taken from them, and that henceforth they were to be virtually set aside as regarded the management of prisons. In conclusion, he regretted that he was compelled to take refuge from the startling Radicalism of the Home Secretary in the unexpected and reassuring Conservatism of the hon. Member for Burnley.
  MR. GOSCHENsaid, that immediately after the last debate on the second reading had taken place the Home Secretary received a deputation of justices, and he told them that he was glad to see them, and that he was sorry he had not been able to say what he had desired to say in the House when the second reading was moved. What was the meaning of that? Surely, if the right hon. Gentleman had really made up his mind on the previous evening to make the concessions which he made to the justices when they called upon him, he might easily have announced the fact to the House through the mouth of one or other of his Colleagues who then addressed it, even though he might himself on that occasion have been suffering from what might be called "suppressed speech." Then the House would have been able to discuss the new and altered phase of the measure with advantage. But the real explanation was, that the concessions which he made to the justices were
  912
  the result of after consideration. The debate had shown him that he could not carry the Bill as it stood when he introduced it, and upon reflection he agreed to alter it. The right hon. Gentleman had taken to himself the appointment of governors, chaplains, surgeons, and superior officers, and had left to the justices the appointment of warders, servants, and cooks. Many hon. Members had spoken of the dualism to which that would lead. But the House had not simply to deal with a question of privileges and patronage. The justices did not think of the petty patronage attached to their office. Leaving that out of the calculation, he (Mr. Goschen) said that the question raised by the Bill was not a question between the justices and the Government, but a question between the State and local authority. And it was a question of self-government generally. The Bill would take away the power of the latter, and put it into the hands of the former, and therein lay its great danger. His right hon. Friend the Lord Mayor would forgive him if he said he regretted some portions of his speech, because he accentuated more the privileges which attached to local authorities than the duties which they had to perform. Many men belonging to the non-professional classes were harnessed to the work of the State and did the work of the State. There were many hon. Members on both sides of the House who felt it was of great importance that those men should continue harnessed to that work. He believed it was admitted that this Bill would effect the transfer of one great branch of local Government to the central Government; the quarter sessions would have to retire from the position of being responsible for the gaols, and the Commissioners were to take their place and occupy that position. The heading of the 4th clause was "Maintenance of prisons and prisoners out of public funds." The heading of another clause was "Prisons to vest in Secretary of State"—that was centralization. And as a result of that there came this heading, "Appointment of Prison Commissioners"—that was patronage, and the whole system of bureaucracy, with assistant Commissioners and all that appertained to them. After the Bill became law, who would be responsible for the gaols, and who was to have the credit of the gaols being well or badly

  913
  kept? The gaolers. But the gaolers would be appointed by the Government, and although the justices would endeavour to do their duty they would not be responsible for the conduct of the gaols. The argument set forth on behalf of the Bill was that it would promote economy, efficiency, and, last not least, relief to local taxation. It was a fair inquiry in what degree these considerations were likely to influence the majority that might possibly pass the Bill. Was it efficiency or economy that would be appreciated—or the three farthings in the pound that it would save to the ratepayers? There were no statistics to refer to with regard to the points of economy and efficiency; but suppose the Bill had not offered a relief of three farthings in the pound to local taxation, would the eloquent arguments as to the advantages of superior discipline and uniformity of arrangement, and the great argument with regard to the remunerative character of mat-making, have persuaded hon. Members to support it? Suppose, again, that this saving of three farthings in the pound to the ratepayers had been offered, without the attack upon quarter sessions—he believed that the Bill would then have been accepted with acclamation; and therefore the real origin of the Bill was not those considerations which had been put forward. He knew that the question of local taxation must be dealt with; but he hoped that it would not be constantly cropping up in all their legislation, so as to induce the Government to introduce Bills that they would not otherwise have introduced, and to postpone Bills that they would not otherwise have postponed. As to the statements in respect to efficiency and economy, they had not seen the statistics upon which those arguments were said to be founded. He wondered, however, whether they were as convincing as those upon which they bought the telegraphs, or as those upon which the Licensing Bill was founded. Even if the statistics proved that there would be increased economy and efficiency, did it follow that the increased economy would continue for many years? Was that their experience of Government administration? Could any figures persuade them that Government management would be a cheap management? If the late Government had introduced a Bill which would cut away one of the
  914
  chief functions of quarter sessions in order to save £50,000 or £100,000, would they not have been denounced upon every hustings? Therefore, to those who sat on the Opposition side of the House, it was perhaps a little diverting to hear the Home Secretary discussing the question whether he would be able to do the very same thing. He did not think that this question turned entirely upon the point whether or not the State would be able under the provisions of this Bill to show a good balance sheet at the end of each year as the result of its management of our prisons. He might, however, observe that it was remarkable that in some of our large prisons in Lancashire the cost per head of the prisoners was only £16, whereas the Government estimate put the cost under the proposed State system at £21 per head. He did not know how far the opinion was shared by hon. Members near him; but his view was that it was not merely because the State could do something cheaply and efficiently that therefore such duties were to be east upon it. He believed, on the contrary, that if such a principle were acted upon, it would lead to changes of a most dangerous character which we might live to repent. It might lead to the transfer of the police to the State. If the Government could manage the police more cheaply and better than the local authorities, would the House be prepared to place them under the Government? ["Hear, hear!" from the Ministerial benches below the Gangway.] He called the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer to the cheers which came from below the Gangway on his side of the House, which showed that in the opinion of hon. Members who sat there this Bill contained but an instalment of that which had been asked for, and there was no knowing how much further they might be asked to go. Were those hon. Members really ready to hand over the police to the Government? ["Hear, hear!"] Then the police would become mere Government officials, and instead of the local authorities the State would be answerable for public order. Before he sat down he asked the Government most earnestly to let the House know whether this measure was an exceptional piece of legislation in the direction of centralization, or whether it was intended

  915
  to carry into effect the view of the hon. Members who had just been cheering? Those who now sat on the Opposition side of the House had often been charged with false economy, but they had never been so falsely economical as to hand over the police to the State, and make them an Imperial constabulary, in order to save the local rates. He regretted extremely that the question of local taxation appeared to have reached a phase in which it induced hon. Members opposite to set aside all constitutional principles for the sake of a small annual saving. The hon. and learned Member for Cambridgeshire (Mr. Rodwell) stated the other evening that this was not a centralizing Bill, because the local justices were, under the existing system, simply acting under regulations, and could not exercise any self-government at all, their duties being prescribed for them by statute. But in putting forward that argument the hon. and learned Member appeared to have fallen into a confusion of ideas as to what was meant by self-government. Government consisted not in passing laws, but in executing them; and he wished to know whether those which affected the localities should be executed by the local authorities or by Imperial officers? The principle of self-government was that the State looked to others besides its own servants to perform the duties required to be discharged in the various localities. The distinction between privilege and duty had been too much kept out of sight all through the debate. In the English public service were included not merely those who were representative and elective, but even those local authorities, such as the Lords Lieutenant and the High Sheriffs, who were appointed by the Crown, but whose local connections made them to all intents and purposes local authorities. The State said, and was wise in saying—"We will press into our interest the strongest bodies in the localities, and we prefer to use those persons rather than our own paid officials." He, therefore, differed from the hon. Baronet the Member for North Devon (Sir Thomas Acland), who always spoke so well on these local taxation subjects, when he said that what was an Imperial concern became a national duty. Why, at that moment, that great statesman, Prince Bismarck, seeing the great advantage England was
  916
  deriving from this system, was decentralizing, and was anxious to press into the service of his country that principle which in this country had so long held society together, and stood between the population and the State in times of dangers and at critical junctures. It was not a slight thing to hand over the police and the gaols to the Imperial Government, so that the people could no longer say—"These are our servants whom we pay ourselves. "The distinction was not fanciful; it was real. He heard with pleasure the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) speak of the importance of the connection between the criminals and the custodians of the gaols, for he thought the right hon. Gentleman was not alone in that opinion. He had not gone into statistics in reference to this branch of the subject, but had contented himself with calling attention to a few of the general considerations which in his view bore upon the main principle of the Bill. He felt sure that there were many hon. Members sitting on the opposite side of the House who agreed with him in the view that with regard to this Prisons Bill decentralization had been pushed too far. They were against centralization, against increasing the patronage in the hands of the Government, against diminishing the work to be done by the county authorities; and it was only for the very strong exceptional case made out by the Government in dealing with the prisons that they would now support the present Bill. It had been said that the counties could be better organized if they parted with the administration of their prisons. The hon. Member for South Derbyshire (Mr. Evans) said that if they parted with the prisons the Government would be more able to frame a Bill to deal with County Financial Boards; but the public did not want County Financial Boards, but strong county institutions. Why was the Bill brought in? He would tell them. The House was called upon to inflict this serious blow upon self-government, because the Government was under a pledge to deal with local taxation; but was this the only mode in which they could give relief? He appealed to the House whether it was not time some authoritative statement was made as to what relief was still due, and how far this system was to go. The first year

  917
  they subsidize; the second year they do nothing; and the third year they centralize. It was a system of biennial sops. The candidate who was now fighting West Worcestershire said the other day—"At the same time I regard the measure as only a small instalment of that to which those engaged in agriculture are entitled." The Government had already given £1,000,000, and now £300,000, and he wanted to know what were the acceptances held by the hon. Baronet the Member for South Devon (Sir Massey Lopes), and how much he yet expected to get from them? Nothing could be more unsatisfactory than that, and he believed he spoke the unanimous sentiments of the whole House when he bade the Government to make a clean breast of it, so that hon. Members might know what they had yet to pay for the relief of the local ratepayers, which would be far preferable to this system of annual doles, granted in a manner which was not approved of by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and many hon. Members on the Government side. He had observed that the Government Bills had precedence according to the amount of public money to be paid under them. Let them look at the Bills before the House at that moment. All the Local Government Bills were put together in a heap, although they did not press on very many of them. The Minister, like the hero of the old nursery rhyme, "put in his thumb, and pulled out a plum" now and again, like a good boy; but where was the Valuation Bill? It was shunted—it carried no money with it—it was run into a siding to let the Prisons Bill pass. Where was the Pollution of Rivers Bill? It carried no public money, and it was shunted to make way for the Prisons Bill. Where was the Highways Bill? Shunted to let the Prisons Bill pass. It had no money in it—nothing but an income tax Inspector to screw up the valuation—and therefore they did not push on that Bill, that the Prisons Bill, with its ¾d. in the pound, might be introduced, and pass safely on its way, a measure which was open, he considered, to very serious objections. He had no objection to the relief of local taxation, but he had, he thought, a right to ask the Government, "What is your policy with regard to local taxation?" If they had such a policy the House would
  918
  be grateful for some frank exposition of it, instead of seeing the Government introducing Bills the only tendency of which could be towards centralization, and that for the sole reason that the Government appeared to be unable otherwise to deal with local taxation. He put those views before the House, which, he submitted, were entitled to serious attention, both as regarded the interests of the ratepayers and the reform of their local institutions.
  MR. ASSHETON CROSSsaid, that one great advantage, at all events, had followed from the adjournment of the debate the other evening—they had got rid of all that had been so forcibly pressed upon the House by the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands)—namely,that there had been great exaggeration on the part of the Government in stating their case against the present system of prisons. Hon. Members on both sides had had time since to refer to the facts stated in the Blue Books on the Table of the House, and had found that, so far from the statements of the Government being exaggerations, they were, if anything, practically within the mark, and the result had been that evening they had not heard a word from any opponent of the Bill to bear out that assertion. He was happy to say also that in the few days which had intervened since the adjournment of the debate they had got rid of another long-sounding and ugly word—the word confiscation. That word, which had formed the staple of the speech of his hon. and gallant Friend behind him, had that evening also totally disappeared. He had refrained from addressing the House on the former evening as he knew the debate was to be adjourned, but it was in reference to the word confiscation he was anxious to address them. The right hon. Gentleman the Lord Mayor had stated that the Bill was replete with centralization, and therefore it was that he (Mr. Cross) was glad he had since received and addressed a deputation on the subject of the Bill; and the right hon. Gentleman who had just spoken (Mr. Goschen) had taken the trouble to cut his speech to pieces, not by argument, but physically—the only way he could cut it up—and in reading the speech he was led astray by not having put the pieces together properly. It was not on the question of patronage he

  919
  wished to speak, as had been represented, but on the question of confiscation. When he said that the State would undertake the management of the prisons for the future, they declined totally to relieve those who at present held jurisdiction over the prisons of the obligation which rested upon them to provide gaols—every prison authority was bound by law to provide its own gaols for its own prisoners. The gaol might be provided in one of several ways. The local authority might build a gaol and pay for it, or they might build it and borrow the money to pay for it; or they could provide it by letting out the prison to some third person who would build it for them. But when a gaol was built it could never be used by the local authority for any other purpose than that of a gaol. They had no power to get rid of it. They could not sell it; and if with the consent of the Secretary of State they were allowed to pull it down, it was only on condition that they built another elsewhere, entirely to his satisfaction. Their obligation was permanent, and they could not get rid of it. But if the State stepped in and relieved them of what he had before called this white elephant, the State should have the use of it so long as they maintained the prisoners. They must have power to enlarge the prisons, and of adapting them to those particular plans which were best suited to carry out improved prison discipline. It was for that purpose the State required to have possession of the gaols. But they held them not as private property, but as a trust. The State would hold them for State purposes. The authorities at present held the gaols as trustees for State purposes, and so it would be in the case of the Secretary of State, who would hold them precisely for the same purposes and on the same trusts as they were now held, and when he ceased to do so he would have to restore them back on certain payments to the local authorities. That was not confiscation, but putting it precisely on its old footing. Although technically the property was transferred, the legal estate becoming vested in the Secretary of State, it was put on the same footing as that mentioned by the hon. Member opposite, when he said that the old gaols were practically vested in the Crown. They now re-
  920
  verted to that practice, holding them for like purposes and no other. The right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down certainly made a strong speech in answer to his right hon. Friend the Lord Mayor. For his part, he (Mr. Cross) was surprised at the statement of the right hon. the Lord Mayor; and he could not see anything more calculated to do harm in a matter of this kind, or to injure more those who were doing duty so well throughout the country, than to say that the office of a magistrate was not worth holding when such slight privileges and advantages as those to which the Lord Mayor referred were discontinued. How could that in any way lower the dignity of the office? As a magistrate of a good many years' standing, he could not see how the Bill threw the slightest slur upon the magistrates. His hon. Friend (Mr. Hard-castle) also, who represented a division of the county for which he (Mr. Cross) had the honour of sitting, said that where the magistrates were doing well the Bill did them injustice; where they were not doing well, the Bill threw a slur on them. He denied both of those assertions. He spoke for the magistrates of his own county, where the gaols were administered economically, efficiently, and with zeal for the public service. But that was not the question. The question was as to the managing the gaols from one end of the kingdom to the other. He ventured to say that, owing to the conflict of local jurisdiction which at the present moment existed, it was absolutely impossible for the magistrates, however good might be their intention, however hard they might work, to carry on prison jurisdiction effectually throughout the country. An hon. Member opposite (Mr. Pease) had said, "Why don't you accomplish your object in another way? Why not take further powers? Why not remove prisoners from one prison to another, and exercise the powers you have with regard to the amalgamation of the several gaol jurisdictions?" The answer to that was complete. The local jurisdiction, as at present constituted, would not allow him to do so. He might, no doubt, remove prisoners from one prison to another, but he had no power to compel another prison to receive them. He defied any Secretary of State to carry out an efficient system of prison disci-

  921
  pline if things were left as they were at present with regard to small gaols. It was not the fault of the men. He believed the justices did their utmost to secure efficiency and economy, but a staff which was necessary for a small prison with half-a-dozen or a dozen prisoners in it would serve for a very much larger number of prisoners. What was the result? In the first place, from want of actual duties to perform, the officers deteriorated; and, in the second, from want of a sufficient number of prisoners, they could not find proper instructors to teach them the work they ought to do. They could not have a proper system unless they had a total change from one end to the other. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Goschen) said by this Bill they struck a great blow at local self-government. That he (Mr. Cross) entirely denied. When they talked of local self-government they thought of bringing up people independently to govern themselves. Did they mean to tell him that in the matter of prison discipline a single man besides the visiting justices had the slightest voice in the matter? The people had no voice in it. He did not say it was right that they should; he thought it would be very wrong if they had. But the local magistrates themselves had no power. Their hands were tied by the Act of 1865. The strictest rules were laid down under that Act in its Schedule; and, further, the visiting justices were subject to the quarter sessions, which had the power of making additional rules for their guidance. The power to make these rules was now to be vested in the Secretary of State, and the first thing he would have to do would be to draw up a code of rules for the guidance of visiting justices, who would exercise all the powers of managing prisons under those rules. It also had been said that the Bill interfered with the privileges of the municipalities, and would destroy their self-respect. But very few of the municipalities had separate gaols, and with reference to them, speaking of his own county, could it be thought of such towns as Preston, Oldham, Rochdale, and Warrington, that their self-respect and power of self-government were not just as great as any other town which had a gaol to manage? Towns like Bolton and Wigan,
  922
  which might have a gaol to-morrow if they chose, had never thought it necessary for their dignity or authority to go and build a gaol. They had wisely sent their prisoners elsewhere, and had no jurisdiction over them. This question had nothing to do with local self-government, and to tell him that the looking after 18,000 miserable prisoners was necessary to preserve the dignity of local self-government or the self-respect of local authorities, was really an insult to his common sense. What, then, was all this fuss, disturbance, and row about? They had at the present moment 28,000 people who were undergoing punishment in prison, of whom about 18,000 were in prison under the management of certain gentlemen up and down the country, and 10,000 were under the hands of the Government. Did any hon. Gentleman suppose that the dignity of the counties or of the towns or cities was infringed because a prisoner was sent to a convict prison and not to an ordinary gaol? He saw a statement the other day in a Welsh paper reporting a conversation between the grand jurors of a Welsh county. One of the grand jurors asked—"If this man gets six months' imprisonment, will the cost fall on the county or the State?" He was told it would fall on the county, when he said—"He had better not find a bill," and the grand jury then ignored the bill. Was a Judge to say—"If I sentence this convicted prisoner to five years' penal servitude I shall lessen the dignity of the mayor, who is sitting by me; and therefore I will send him to the county gaol?" Surely the principle of convict prisons had a direct bearing on this question; and if the monstrous argument which had been put forward were to be followed out to its logical result, the prisoners sent to penal servitude must be chargeable to local jurisdictions. He put the argument which he had just mentioned, therefore, out of the question, and the point to which he would specially direct the attention of the House was that Secretary of State after Secretary of State, though a Gaol Act had now been passed 10 years, found he was powerless to promote efficiency, uniformity, and economy. It was true, indeed, that in many counties and boroughs that Act had worked well; but in how many, he would ask, had it not failed? That was

  923
  not owing, as he had pointed out, to any want of willingness or ability on the part of the magistrates to do their duty, but to the impossibility of carrying out the Act because of the multiplicity of jurisdictions. The main features of the present measure ought then, he thought, to command the assent of the House and of the country, for under its operation we should be able so to classify our prisoners as to instruct them better when in prison in industrial labour, which would be of use to them when their period of confinement came to an end, and also secure that essential point, punishment by imprisonment; for when a man was sent to prison in a county for three months, it would make no difference whether the county were A or B, the punishment would be the same. He had been talking, he might add, to a very illustrious foreigner since the Bill had been introduced, who had said to him—"I observe, Mr. Cross, you stated that in different counties men sentenced to undergo three months' imprisonment are subjected to totally different treatment. Is not your law the same throughout the length and breadth of England?" His reply was—"Nominally, yes; but, practically, no, because three months' imprisonment in my own county is a very different thing from the same period of confinement in another. "It was, then, for the purposes of securing uniformity of discipline, diet, treatment, and the classification of prisoners mainly that the Bill was proposed. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Goschen) had been good enough to raise a laugh at his expense by referring to something he was supposed to have said the other day; but the right hon. Gentleman was entirely mistaken as to what fell from him on the occasion to which he alluded. He believed it was absolutely necessary that all the superior officers in our prisons should be appointed by the Secretary of State; but he cared very little about the inferior posts, for it was very likely that persons living in a locality might know a great many who would be fitted for the inferior posts, and it would be a great advantage that an officer who had served well in a gaol should not be confined to the gaol for the whole of his life, or until he was superannuated, but that he should have the chance of being
  924
  promoted in case a vacancy occurred to a larger gaol, and in that way reap the benefit of his good conduct. Therefore the officers would gain largely by the Bill. But the right hon. Gentleman said—"We want to know whether this is the end of all things? "The right hon. Gentleman was like a celebrated clergyman who always set up a man in the pulpit for the purpose of knocking him down. From the beginning to the end of his speech the right hon. Gentleman made observations which proved that he had not read the Bill at all. [Mr. GOSCHEN: I read the clauses.] It was true the right hon. Gentleman read the headings of the clauses in the index, which were not part of the Bill, and therefore he (Mr. Cross) was strictly correct in saying that the right hon. Gentleman never dealt with the Bill. The right hon. Gentleman summarily dismissed this question of the gaols, because he knew he was treading on delicate ground. Every hon. Member in the House felt that, although a great deal had been made of the question of centralization, the right hon. Gentleman himself did not really think there was much centralization in the matter after all that had been said. But in order to impress upon the House the arguments which he would have used if the Bill had been one of centralization, the right hon. Gentleman said—"I will tell you what you are going to do. If you pass this Bill, it will be necessary to have the police under the control of the Government." Then some hon. Member cried—"Hear, hear," whereupon the right hon. Gentleman said—"I call the Chancellor of the Exchequer's attention to that cheer;" and so the right hon. Gentleman starting off again said—"When the Government have got the police just think what a blow that will be when we see the policemen walking up and down every town all over the country and hear people say, pointing to them—'Look here, those are not our own men now, but they are Government officers that have come down as spies.' "Thus, the right hon. Gentleman had described a state of things that had no real existence. The right hon. Gentleman did not want to convince him (Mr. Cross), because he knew he could not do so. There was no ground whatever for that line of argument; and the right hon. Gentleman seemed to adopt it only

  925
  because he was not able to press the danger of centralization, confiscation of the gaols, or the fatal results to the magistracy. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) had pointed out, with his usual acuteness, that if the prisoners had any grievances they would lose their present right of appeal through the visiting justices. But they would really not do so. In introducing the Bill he (Mr. Cross) had stated, and now repeated, that if the gaols were to be in the hands of the Secretary of State it was absolutely necessary there should be a body of independent justices who should be able to look after the interests of the prisoners. This was precisely what the visiting committee would do under the Bill, and what any body of English gentlemen would gladly do. There would be vested in the visiting justices all the powers of Sections 58 and 59, but the diet tables and other like matters would be settled by the central authority, and the visiting justices would see that the regulations thus laid down were properly carried out. That would be their position, and he was sure they would accept it. He had now explained the main grounds upon which the Government based the Bill, which, as he submitted, struck no blow at local self-government, or at the duties of the magistrates, but, on the contrary, showed every wish to recognize what the magistrates had done and would do. The Government were of opinion that the Bill involved no question of centralization, while it offered the greatest possible advantages in securing greater efficiency, greater economy, and better discipline. In order to arrive at these results it was imperatively necessary that the Government should have possession of the gaols. The right hon. Gentleman complained that he had placed on the Table no statistics as to the advantages and economy of the Bill. But such statistics had really been on the Table for years. They were contained in the Blue Books relating to prisons, which showed what the cost would be, and might be made to be, by proper classification. From the reports of the proceedings at quarter sessions, it was clear that the magistrates, as a body, did not think the Bill a slur upon them. If ever a Bill had gone through a severe ordeal it was this measure, which, in the middle of a debate, before
  926
  the responsible Minister had spoken, and without any thorough discussion in the House of Commons, had been discussed by the visiting justices and courts of quarter sessions throughout the country; and any person who read the resolutions adopted at these sessions must come to the conclusion that the magistrates did not see the dangers which had been pointed out as the result of the Bill. Those resolutions contained no word of confiscation or centralization; they merely claimed a little more power for the visiting justices. If, on the other hand, hon. Members looked at some of the municipalities which had memorialized the Government at the Boards of Guardians and the Chambers of Agriculture, they would find a unanimous opinion in favour of the present measure. In conclusion, he would express a sincere hope that the House would not only read the Bill a second time, but that it would consent to pass through all its stages a measure which, in his opinion, and he believed in the opinion of the magistrates also, would prove to be of great advantage to the country.
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, he had carefully read the Bill, and would point out what it really did. It transferred from the different courts of quarter sessions that were not over pressed with work to the Secretary of State, who was so over-pressed with work that he did not know where to turn, the charge of above 100 prisons and 18,000 prisoners. Moreover, as if we had not enough public Departments already, it created a new public Department, with five Commissioners, he knew not how many assistant Commissioners, and a large body of Inspectors. Within the last few years two important measures had been passed on the subject of prison discipline. In 1863 a measure relating to penal servitude was introduced after a careful inquiry by a Royal Commission, of which he was a Member. That Bill made slight changes in comparison with those which would be effected by the present measure. In the following year a Bill was brought in relating to the prisons dealt with by the measure now under consideration. That also was considered very carefully by a Select Committee before it was allowed to pass, although the changes it effected were not great. But the present Bill was introduced late in

  927
  the Session, and it was expected to be passed without further inquiry, and only with debates on the second reading and in Committee. Again, the whole object of prison discipline was the prevention of crime. But neither in the speech of the Home Secretary, nor indeed once in the debate, had it been stated that the prevention of crime was inefficient, and that this revolution in our arrangements was required for such a purpose. The one argument used in favour of the Bill had been economy, but he doubted very much the plea of economy when it was advanced, not by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but by the Secretary of State for the Home Department. He (Mr. Childers) suspected a cry of economy in support of new establishments. The right hon. Gentleman had already a Prison department which had at its head the Surveyor General of Prisons. That department had a Chief Commissioner, three directors, and a considerable staff, who cost some £6,000 a-year. The right hon. Gentleman referred to the work of that department as justifying in one important respect the proposal he now made. One of the main arguments urged on the introduction of this Bill was that the transfer from the justices to the Secretary of State would lead to the same results as in the Convict Department. The right hon. Gentleman said—
  "We have no reason to doubt that if all these prisoners were under the same discipline and properly grouped together the amount of money they earn would not be as large as is now earned in the best managed convict prisons."—[3 Hansard, ccxxix. 1543.]
  Why, then, did the right hon. Gentleman propose to create a new department? Again, the scheme was utterly crude and bald. The Bill of 1865 had been explained to the House in minute detail; but no details had been given with regard to this Bill; all they were told was that there would be a saving of a lump sum of £100,000—namely, £50,000 in consequence of more labour, and £50,000 from concentration of prisons. Now, he had had some experience at the Treasury, and that experience convinced him that if there was anything that ought to be regarded with suspicion it was lump sums. So, again, as to the absence of explanations as to which prisons would be discontinued, the right hon. Gentleman had appealed to the debates of 1865
  928
  in confirmation of his statement that prisons could not be closed until they were out of the control of Quarter Sessions. But the Act of 1865 laid down most distinctly what prisons were to be retained and what to be amalgamated, and if the right hon. Gentleman had proceeded on the lines of the Act of 1865, he would have attained his object without any of the harshness of the present measure. The right hon. Gentleman had said that he would not have been able to make the local authorities combine. But in the case of the lunatic asylums they had combined, and those asylums were brought into a state of great efficiency under the control of Parliament, although still managed by the counties. Then, as to the question of economy, the right hon. Gentleman would have the House believe that there would be a saving of £100,000 on an expenditure of £600,000. Was that likely to be the case? Let hon. Members compare what it was said the cost of managing the telegraphs would be, if transferred to Government, with what had turned out to be the case. The expense had been doubled and even trebled. He did not speak of the gross expense now, but of the cost of the establishments, and this was distinctly a question of establishments. In the case of the additional duties undertaken by the Board of Trade, it was said that they would be discharged at a moderate expense. But here, again, the expense had been doubled and trebled. In fact, whenever the Government was about to take over new establishments the cost was always under-estimated by at least one-half. He ventured to say, therefore, that within the next eight or ten years, instead of a saving, there would be an increase of expense to the amount of £200,000 or 300,000. In regard to the question of economy, it was a notable circumstance that neither the Chancellor of the Exchequer nor the Secretary to the Treasury had said a word in defence of the Bill excepting on the question of Adjournment. Besides the speeches of the Home Secretary and the Under Secretary, no speeches had been made from the Treasury Bench in support of the Bill, except by the hon. Baronet who held the office of Civil Secretary to the Admiralty (Sir Massey Lopes), and he had not spoken on the subject on account of his official position, but because this

  929
  was a measure in the direction of his views of local taxation; and what were those views? That hon. Gentleman proposed in 1871 that the expenses of the county and borough prisons should be transferred to the Government, but he also proposed on that occasion that the whole of the Poor Law expenses and of the turnpike roads and of the police should be defrayed by the central Government. That being so, the Bill, he believed, was only the commencement of an agitation for charging on the national Exchequer not £500,000 only, as would be done by the present measure, but £7,000,000 or £8,000,000 which were now charged on the local rates.
  SIR MASSEY LOPESsaid, what he proposed was that one-half the cost of lunatics, one-half the cost of the police, and the whole cost of the administration of justice should be transferred to, and borne by, the Imperial Exchequer.
  MR. CHILDERSsaid, that was the compromise which the hon. Baronet offered to accept in 1872, when he carried his Motion, and not the proposal put forward when he was defeated by a majority of 36 in 1871, when he made the speech from which he (Mr. Childers) was quoting propounding his own views. These circumstances entitled him to ask, Where are we going? Where will this end? It was remarkable that the proposal embodied in this Bill was not put forward in the programme of the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1874; but, on the other hand, a distinct promise was then made that if the remissions of local taxation proposed were allowed, in the following Session a scheme of improved local administration would be brought forward. Nothing, however, was done in the Session of 1875, nor had any proposal been made this year. It was true that at the present moment there were five Bills before the House in which the question of local administration was dealt with; but the effect of them would be to unsettle everything and settle nothing, and they could not be regarded as in any way fulfilling the promise made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1874. A new body was to be formed under the Rivers Pollution Bill, and another under the Highways Bill. Boards of Guardians were to have educational functions, and further valuation powers were to be given to Quarter Sessions; but all this was mere
  930
  tinkering. Under all the circumstances, he wished to know whether the House was prepared to go on dealing with fractions of the subject, frittering away the public money and making petty changes? It was of the utmost importance that no time should be lost in dealing with the larger question of local self-government, and that it ought to be dealt with as a whole. Their object should be to increase, not decrease, the work done by really efficient local bodies. Parliament was now overworked, because they attempted to do that which would be much better done by such a county authority as the Conseils Généraux in France. And it was because the Bill would postpone the formation of a really efficient county government that he hoped the Government would pause before they pressed it upon the House during the present Session.
  THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that one of the great difficulties in the way of the advocates of this Bill was to bring its opponents to the discussion of the measure before the House. In the speech of the right hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, for example, it seemed to him (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) the subject had been treated as a text on which to preach a sermon, dealing with a variety of remote topics rather than with the view of discussing the subject before the House. The right hon. Gentleman said that no one had spoken from the Government Bench except the author of the Bill and the Minister responsible for the administration of prisons, the Under Secretary for the Home Department (Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson), and the Civil Lord of the Admiralty (Sir Massey Lopes), who had, for reasons well known, taken great interest in the matter. If other Members of the Government had not spoken, it was not from any reluctance on their part, but because they had not been brought face to face with any objections that required an answer. The measure was simple in character, it was easily stated, and the objections were of a partial character, and had been pretty well disposed of. If hon. Members would look at the Bill as a measure by itself there would hardly be any appreciable portion of them who would vote against it. Those who wished to throw impediments in the way of the passing the Bill were therefore obliged to look

  931
  outside the measure itself. He trusted that the House would consider the Bill on its merits. Upon what did it rest? It might be considered in its economical and administrative aspects, and one could not be dissociated from the other. The right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Childers) had challenged him to say that the Bill would be productive of very great economy, and to discuss the savings that might be effected. But at that hour of the night he would not again go over the statistics, and the question did not rest on statistics. The economy did not depend upon the £100,000, or whatever the sum might be, which it might be thought would be saved, but upon the introduction of a system of administration which was in its nature more economical than that which had hitherto prevailed. If he might recall a saying of his right hon. Friend at the head of the Government which was much applauded at the time, and had often been quoted since, it was one of those cases in which "expenditure depended upon policy. "And if they desired that prison discipline should be effective and under economical management, they had better get rid of the complications and difficulties that had led to the introduction of this Bill. The question of prison discipline had been under the consideration of Parliament for many years. There had been Select Committees and discussions in that House, and they were not approaching a new and untried subject. It was, therefore, the less necessary that, at the end of these discussions, the House should take further time to consider a Bill that was the outcome of what had gone before, and the principle of which had met with general approval. The great matter was to be able to carry out a system of prison administration with economy. The Government did not say crime was increasing and that the measure was required to repress it. On the contrary, the improvements of late years in prison discipline had tended to reduce crime, and the Government now proposed to take a step further in that direction. Nothing was more conducive to the repression of crime than certainty of punishment and uniformity of punishment. And nothing was more likely to bring about that state of things than central action, which could most effectively bring the system into harmony. Well, admitting that central action in
  932
  such matters was the best, the magistrates, if charged by the Government to carry it out, would be in a most embarrassing position with respect to the ratepayers at whose expense the change was to be made. He knew from his own experience how frequently it happened that magistrates saw the necessity of some improvement, but refrained from carrying it out, because the ratepayers whose pockets were to suffer had no voice in the matter. He remembered sitting as chairman of quarter sessions when there was an even division, and he gave the casting vote against the expenditure, not because he thought it unnecessary, but in order that the question might be reconsidered. Some persons said—"Bring in the ratepayers to have a voice in the expenditure." Did the Government think that ratepayers would furnish them with the best system? Would it be wise to give the ratepayers control over prison management? There, to his mind, lay the whole question. If bodies elected by the ratepayers could be safely entrusted with that business well and good. But if, as the Government believed, that was a matter of administration which ought not to be left to bodies of that kind, the only resource was to treat it from the point of view of the central Government, which was what the Bill proposed to do. He believed this system would greatly hasten and facilitate reform in prison administration, and indeed in the local administration of the country generally. The Government, he might say, were desirous as far as possible in connection with this subject to avail themselves of the assistance of the local magistrates, whose patriotism and public spirit he was sure would not be found wanting. In matters connected with administration, it was the earnest wish of the Government to facilitate and not impede their proper and useful action. He believed that that proposal of the Government was one which would have for its primary effect a great improvement of the prison discipline and the penal system of the country; secondly, that it would greatly facilitate the improvement of our system of local administration; and, thirdly, that it would take a very important step towards the settlement of the question of contributions to local burdens. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Pontefract had done injustice to his (the Chancel-

  933
  lor of the Exchequer's) former statements on that subject. He had never said that that matter was not within their purview. What he stated in 1874 was that the Government then proposed as much as they could at that time propose in regard to two or three of the subjects embraced in the Resolution of the hon. Baronet the Member for South Devon (Sir Massey Lopes), and he remembered in that Session pointing to reasons, not merely of a financial character, why they should put off dealing with the administration of justice, because inquiries were then going on for the result of which it was desirable to wait. Certainly, last year, when speaking of the expenses of prosecution, he said that was a point to which they were looking, and it never had been out of their consideration. It was a measure which had not been casually taken up and introduced, and when it was asked why they gave precedence to it over others which had been introduced before it, he answered because it had been mentioned in the Queen's Speech, while other Bills had not, and therefore it formed part of their programme of legislation for this year. He hoped the Government had dealt fairly and frankly with the House in that matter. The explanation of the measure lay on the face of it, and the Government were not actuated in regard to it by any desire of grasping at power, still less was it their intention to cast any reflection on a class of gentlemen who had rendered valuable services to the country, and if any further vindication besides that already given had been wanting for that measure, it would have been found in the arguments of those who opposed it.
  SIR THOMAS CHAMBERSmoved the Adjournment of the Debate.
  MR. WHALLEYseconded the Motion.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Sir Tomas Chambers.)
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, he was sorry that the hon. and learned Common Serjeant had made that Motion, for he could not help thinking it was somewhat unreasonable. Considering that the second reading of the Bill had now been discussed for two nights, and, that night especially, with great variety and vigour on both sides, he thought the question had been fairly exhausted. Moreover,
  934
  at that period of the Session they must feel as practical men that the Motion for further adjournment was not justified, and therefore he must give it his opposition.
  MR. RYLANDSappealed to the Government to agree to the Motion, as many hon. Gentlemen on both sides were still anxious to speak, and it was only reasonable they should have the opportunity.
  MR. NEWDEGATEsupported the Motion for Adjournment. He contended that the discussion was by no means exhausted.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONsaid, if he could regard this Bill as the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary regarded it, mainly as a departmental measure, he should be entirely disposed to agree with the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Government that it had been fully discussed. But he was of opinion that this Bill raised very important questions besides those departmental questions to which the Home Secretary had referred. Those points had, he thought, been very ably laid before the House by his right hon. Friends the Member for the City of London and the Member for Pontefract. He thought those points had scarcely received sufficient attention from the Government or from hon. Members who had addressed the House on this subject. He was therefore very much disposed to think that the discussion which the measure had received was inadequate, and that the House would do well to consider it further before giving it a second reading. He was disposed to think that it would be perfectly impossible at that period of the Session that the measure could receive the attention which it ought to receive, looking at the various important subjects which it opened up, and that the Government and the House would do well to come to the determination not to proceed with it that Session any further. For those reasons, though he should be sorry to enter into a conflict with the Government, yet if his hon. Friend should proceed to a division on his Motion for Adjournment he should be disposed to support him. When the Motion of the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) was put from the Chair, he admitted that he should give his vote with some doubt and hesitation, for though he agreed thoroughly in a great

  935
  many of the objections that had been taken on that (the Opposition) side of the House, he was disposed to admit that there was a good deal in the Bill which possessed considerable merit. He thought, however, the Bill dealt with a most important subject in a very fragmentary manner. He must repeat, that as he did not think the subject could receive that Session the attention which it ought to receive, the Motion for Adjournment was one that he could vote for without any doubt whatever. If that Motion were negatived, he should be obliged to vote, although with some doubt, for the Motion of the hon. Member for Burnley.
  Question put.
  The House divided:—Ayes 122; Noes 298: Majority 176.
  Question again proposed, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  MR. MITCHELL HENRYsaid, he would move the Adjournment of the House. His reason for doing so was that the Bill was to be followed by one of a similar character for Ireland, and experience had shown them that the discussion of the question would be taken altogether on the English Bill. As an Irish Member, and having had some experience as a magistrate in county business, he had insuperable objections to the Bill, and wished to have an opportunity of stating them.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—(Mr. Mitchell Henry.)
  MR. DISRAELIsaid, after the significant majority against the Adjournment he hoped the hon. Member for Galway would not persevere with his Motion. He had certainly given a rather fanciful reason for proposing it. He (Mr. Disraeli) could not recall an instance of the kind where an Irish Bill was not fully discussed, because a similar measure relating to England had already been considered. The House having by an almost unprecedented majority expressed its opinion, he hoped they would be allowed to proceed to a decision on the second reading.
  THE MARQUESS OF HARTINGTONalso hoped that the hon. Member for Galway would not press his Motion for the Adjournment of the House. He (the
  936
  Marquess of Hartington) had himself voted in the minority just now, not from a wish to oppose any factious opposition to the Government proposal, but merely to give effect to his view that such a measure as that should not be proceeded with at that period of the Session. He did not think that any large number of those who voted in the minority were opposed in principle to this Bill, which contained many excellent provisions. He, therefore, trusted that the hon. Member would withdraw the Motion. It would be for the Government to consider, after the Bill had been read a second time, whether the time remaining at their disposal would enable them to pass the measure in the present Session.
  MR. RYLANDSjoined in the appeal of the noble Lord to his hon. Friend the Member for Galway to withdraw his Motion for Adjournment.
  MR. MITCHELL HENRYsaid, he would accede to the request; but, at the same time, he must say that he had moved the Adjournment of the House at the instance and request of the hon. Member for Burnley (Mr. Rylands) himself.
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
  The House divided:—Ayes 295; Noes 96: Majority 199.
  Main Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill read a second time, and committed for Monday 17th July.

CUSTOMS LAWS CONSOLIDATION BILL.
(Mr. Raikes, Mr. William Henry Smith, Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
CUSTOMS LAWS CONSOLIDATION BILL.

  [BILL 154.] COMMITTEE.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
  Debate arising.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Debate be now adjourned."—(Mr. Dillwyn.)
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Original Question put, and agreed to.
  Bill considered in Committee, and reported; as amended, to be considered, upon Thursday.

BANKERS' BOOKS EVIDENCE BILL.
(Sir John Lubbock, Mr. Backhouse, Mr. Sampson Lloyd, Mr. Watkin Williams.)
BANKERS' BOOKS EVIDENCE BILL.

  [BILL 205.] CONSIDERATION.
  Bill, as amended, considered.
  Amendments made.
  Amendment proposed, in page 1, line 20, after the words "chapter thirty-two," to insert the words "and any savings bank certified under the Act of 1863."—(Sir John Lubbock.)
  Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
  Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
  Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the further Proceeding on Consideration, as amended, be now adjourned."—(Mr. Onslow.)
  Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
  Other Amendments made.
  Bill to be read the third time upon Thursday.

  ARMY PENSIONS COMMUTATION BILL.
  Resolution [June 30] reported.
  "That it is expedient to exempt certain Officers of the Army on Half-Pay retiring under 'The Regulation of the Forces Act, 1871,' from the operation of the tenth section of 'The Pensions Commutation Act, 1871.' "
  Resolution agreed to:—Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. RAIKES, Mr. Secretary HARDY, and Mr. WILLIAM HENRY SMITH.

  CONVICT PRISONS (RETURNS) BILL.
  On Motion of Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson, Bill to amend the Law respecting certain Returns from Convict Prisons, ordered to be brought in by Sir Henry Selwin-Ibbetson and Mr. Secretary Cross.
  Bill presented, and read the first time. [Bill 227.]
  House adjourned at half after Two o'clock.

MINUTES.
PUBLIC BILLS—First Reading—Saint Vincent, Tobago, and Grenada Constitution* (156).
Second Reading—Wild Fowl Preservation (134).
Committee—General Police and Improvement (Scotland) Provisional Order (Lerwick)* (122).
Committee—Report—Slave Trade (135).
Report—Industrial and Provident Societies* (148).
Third Reading—Metropolitan Commons (Barnes)* (119); Elementary Education Provisional Order Confirmation (Tolleshunt Major)* (114); General Police and Improvement(Scotland) Provisional Order Confirmation (Paisley)* (112)—(Perth)* (113); Public Health (Scotland) Provisional Orders (Irvine and Dundonald)* (118); Provisional Orders (Ireland) Confirmation (Coleraine, &c.) (107),* and passed.

TURKEY—RUSSIAN OFFICERS IN THE SERVIAN ARMY.—QUESTION.
THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN: My Lords, I rise for the purpose of putting a Question to the noble Earl the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, of which I have given him private Notice. It has been stated in the papers that a Russian
824
officer holding the rank of General in the Russian Army has now a high command in the Servian Army. It has also been stated more than once that Russian officers have been crossing over into Servia—presumably with the object of joining the Servian Army. I beg to ask the noble Earl, Whether those statements are true; and whether he can give the House any information as to the number of Russian officers who have entered the Servian service?
THE EARL OF DERBY: I presume that the officer alluded to in the noble Earl's Question as holding the rank of General in the Russian Army is General Tchernayeff. There is no doubt that General Tchernayeff was formerly employed in the Russian Army, and attained high rank in the Russian service. He subsequently, I am told, quitted that service, and became the Editor of a journal which supports the Sclavonic cause. I am informed that he has since accepted the command which he now holds in the Servian Army. As to the other part of the noble Earl's Question—that relating to Russian officers who may have crossed into Servia with the view of entering into the Servian Army—I am afraid that I cannot answer it. Everybody knows, however, that there is a strong sympathy felt among the Russian population for the cause of the Servian insurgents; and it is possible and not improbable that various persons who have held rank and been employed in the Russian service may be serving as volunteers in the Servian Army. But on that point I cannot speak with any certainty; and I have no reason to believe that they do so with the assent, still less with the authority, of the Russian Government.

MALAY PENINSULA.

  RESOLUTION.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY,in rising to call the attention of the House to the Malay Correspondence, and to move—
  "That this House regrets that the Colonial Department did not bestow more attention on the affairs on the Malay Peninsula from the time of the Pangkok Treaty in January 1874 to October 1875,"
  said: Before addressing myself to the subject before the House, I desire to make

  825
  one or two preliminary observations. I am not going to call in question the acts of any other person than those of the noble Earl the Secretary of State, because he is technically responsible for all that has taken place; and also morally responsible—but I desire to qualify that statement by another. I am not so unreasonable as to expect from the Secretary of State a sufficiently careful reading of all the Papers sent from the Straits Settlements, added to all the mass of documents from all the other Colonies, but the country has a right to expect that that duty should be efficiently performed by the officials of the Colonial Office. If I do not say more in exoneration of the noble Earl in this respect, it is to avoid giving him an opening for saying that I am attacking those officials who are not here to defend themselves. It also well may be that the Staff of the Colonial Office is short-handed for the work it has to do, and I would gladly see the noble Earl take measures to strengthen the Staff of his office. I also feel bound in duty to state to your Lordships that which I have had the pleasure of saying in private, that I am grateful to my noble Friend, and that I feel the gratitude of the country is due to him for his conduct with regard to Sultan Ismail, and for having preserved the country from the disgrace which would have attached to any precipitate court martial or mock trial of Sultan Ismail, such as some persons in the colony were desirous of. I wish now to make an observation on the method of the Colonial Office in the matter of Parliamentary Papers. The Fiji Papers were given to your Lordships on the day of the debate; the Gambia Papers were delivered only one clear day before the discussion. The Malay Blue Book, No. 1,111, was delivered in the beginning of August last, though it professed to have been presented July 31st, 1874. This Blue Book may be called the undiscussed Blue Book, and the noble Earl appears to wish that it should be indiscutable, since it was delivered too late for discussion last Session, and February of this year was too early. One of the Blue Books lately delivered, No. 1,320, also professes to have been presented August 6th, 1875, and these Blue Books were only delivered to the other House on the day of a debate there. I will not say that this method of delivering Parliamentary Papers is intended to
  826
  prevent Parliamentary discussion, though it has that effect; but I say it is a strong proof of the procrastination and dilatoriness of the Colonial Office, which have in a great measure contributed to the recent unfortunate events in the Malay Peninsula—and I would ask the noble Earl why he took nearly two months to answer Sir William Jervois's despatch? Now, this House has already, in the Address in reply to the Speech from the Throne, expressed its regret for the loss of valuable lives during the recent military operations in the Malay Peninsula, and it will, no doubt, also regret, though in a lesser degree, the expenditure which has been caused by those operations; it will probably also regret that military operations should have taken place which must have had the effect of indisposing towards us the inhabitants of the Malay Peninsula. And it may be also supposed that it regrets the loss of life amongst the Malays, who were as much patriots as the Poles or any others who have had the sympathy of this country; and if this House regrets all these circumstances, or even if it should confine its regrets to the loss of the valuable lives of Her Majesty's troops, then it must also regret the cause of that loss, and that cause will be found to be principally the want of timely attention on the part of the Colonial Office. The Blue Books contain a discussion between the Secretary of State and the Governor of the Straits Settlements, chiefly turning upon the point of whether the Residents appointed by Sir Andrew Clarke had, or had not, assumed the administration of the countries where they resided. The Governor says they had; and the Secretary of State maintains, in his despatch of December 10, 1875, that the Residents were merely advisers; but I will show your Lordships that all this was clear to the Colonial Office before Sir William Jervois proceeded to his post, and that the Colonial Department approved of all that the Residents did, until Mr. Birch was killed and a dead body was found at their door, and then they did like the people in the Arabian Nights, who endeavoured to remove the dead hunchback from their own to another door. I do not wish to exonerate Sir William Jervois for having gone beyond his instructions, and there is much to object to in the unseemly tone of his despatches; but he has received hard

  827
  and unequal measure, for the despatch, addressed to him on the 10th December last would have been an admirable despatch, if it had been dated March, 1874, and addressed to Sir Andrew Clarke. And there is another person besides Sir Andrew Clarke upon whom the noble Earl should lay blame, and that is upon himself for not having more closely watched the proceedings of the Straits officials, for not having earlier checked departures from instructions, and from what he now states were his intentions; and the noble Earl has proved that he himself is conscious of this, by his not having recalled Sir William Jervois. Now in proof of this it will only be necessary to place before your Lordships the outlines of certain proceedings along with the dates of the reception at the Colonial Office of Reports upon them. The Report of Captain Speedy was received at the Colonial Office on the 10th May, 1875. From this Report it is clear that Captain Speedy was the chief, it may be said, the sole administrator. Mr. Skinner in his Report says—"Flogging is a more frequent punishment (under Captain Speedy) than in our Courts." The Secretary of State replied on the 25th May, 1875 (No. 24, p. 84), that he had read Captain Speedy's Reports with interest, and that it was desirable to obtain, if practicable, the abatement of debt slavery. This being a Malay custom was one of the matters the Residents were precluded from interfering with by the Pangkok Treaty. Sir Andrew Clarke had anticipated Sir William Jervois in giving the title of Commissioner instead of Resident to the British officials sent to Sunghie Ujong. Captain Dunlop's Report of his proceedings in that country was received by the Colonial Office on the 30th January, 1875, and on the 4th of March the Secretary of State approved of these proceedings. The Datu Klana of Sunghie Ujong applied to the Governor, Sir Andrew Clarke, for an officer and also for a British flag, "so as to be under the protection of the Great Governor. "This Sir Andrew Clarke granted him, describing the flag merely as a compliment to the British Government. The Datu Bandar, however, a Ruler with powers nearly co-ordinate with those of the Datu Klana, objected to this hoisting of the flag, and a quarrel ensued between the two Chiefs. The
  828
  Straits authorities intervened with an armed force in December, 1874. Sir Andrew Clarke informed the Datu Bandar on the 3rd October, 1874, that if he makes war against his Chief, the Datu Klana, he will in truth be making war upon the Queen. Captain Dunlop relates in his Report that he seized three Chinese head men who were suspected of having assisted the Bandar with money. He first pronounced them traitors and rebels who had incurred the punishment of death and confiscation; but relenting from this view he imposed a fine of $3,000 on each, and as one of them was not ready with his money next morning he had him flogged. There is no word of disapprobation in the Blue Book of such proceedings, and granting that the Klana assented to it, it is not fitting that a British officer should inflict such punishment on behalf of one Malay Ruler on the adherents of another. Captain Dunlop then settled the ways and means of Sunghie Ujong, leased the opium, spirits', and pawnbrokers'monopolies, and established a gambling farm—and the Blue Book does not contain a syllable of protest against a British officer sanctioning the establishment of gambling houses as one of the civilizing elements of the Residential system. In replying on the 4th March, 1874, to the Governor's despatch, forwarding Captain Dunlop's Report, the Secretary of State merely "regrets that the Governor has found himself so soon called upon to resume hostile operations against any of the Malay Chiefs. "It is impossible to account for this absolute acquiescence in a course so diametrically opposed to the professed policy of the Colonial Office, and I can find no other answer than either that the Secretary of State never read the Papers, or that he had no other policy than that which his subordinates chose to adopt. It is unnecessary to trouble your Lordships with further instances to prove that from their first appointment the Residents did not confine themselves to advice, but undertook the administration of the country, and it is only for the sake of the dates that I have referred to them, because the noble Earl has since admitted, in his despatch of June 1st last to Sir William Jervois, that—
  "It is indeed clear that the Residents have exceeded the function of counsellors, which they were intended to discharge."

  829
  To turn to another matter, the want of attention or of due diligence on the part of the Colonial Department has been strikingly shown in the selection of the Residents. The noble Earl was as fully conscious as everybody else of the importance of this selection when he wrote to Sir Andrew Clarke on the 4th September, 1874, that—
  "It was essential that these very responsible posts should be filled by officers of the highest ability, and on whose conduct complete reliance may he placed."
  Now first, with regard to Captain Speedy. He has done very well according to his lights, and left as he was without guidance; but it does not follow that because he has done pretty well in Larut, he should do well in Perak, since in Larut he had hardly any people but Chinese to deal with. But what was known of him on his appointment? All that was known of him in the Straits was that he arrived there after the Abyssinian War, in which he took some part, and that he was appointed police superintendent at Penang; that shortly after he threw up his appointment and actually entered the service of the Mantri of Larut, who was asserting his independence of the Sultan of the country, and went to India to raise sepoys for his new master. At that time he caused some flutter in India and Indian circles about this matter, and some legal question as to whether it did not fall under the Indian Penal Code or some Act of Parliament. It was in the service of the Mantri that Sir Andrew Clarke found him, and it was a singular appointment to recommend, and one over which the Secretary of State might well hesitate. Next, with regard to Mr. Davidson. He was a Scotch lawyer in good practice at Singapore. He was unconnected with the public service, and if he had been appointed to any other place but Salangore, I should not have called his appointment in question. But on the 10th of May, 1874, I wrote to the noble Earl, telling him there was a report that Mr. Davidson would be appointed to Salangore, and asking him to ascertain something about his relations and pecuniary interests in that country, and that I hoped to hear from him before I gave Notice of a Question on the subject in the House. To the best of my recollection (and subject to the noble Earl's correction if I am wrong) he informed
  830
  me that he did not believe there was any such intention. I also stated to your Lordships on the 19th May, 1874, that Mr. Davidson had lent money to Tunku Dhya Udin, but I did not mention his name because his appointment was not certain. It might have been expected, however, that the noble Earl would have cautioned Sir Andrew Clarke not to make such an appointment. Now, these were the pecuniary interests of Mr. Davidson, who since has administered Salangore as Resident. Tunku Kudin, brother of the Sultan of Keddah, came to Salangore and married a daughter of the Sultan. After pressure and interference, by the Straits' authorities, he was established as Viceroy of Salangore under his father-in-law. Meantime he had visited Singapore and made friends with the merchants and officials, and borrowed largely from Mr. Davidson. Before Mr. Davidson was named Resident he had obtained, in March, 1873, a concession of a monopoly of tin mines in Salangore for 10 years, and he and his friends tried to get up a company in England. From an advertisement in a London paper of July 6th, 1874, The London and China Telegraph, which, I presume, is taken in at the Colonial Office, it appears that the nominal capital of this company was £200,000, and £100,000 was to be paid to Count Gelois and Mr. Davidson, the concessionaires or vendors of the concession. When the United States Government has lately objected to one of their Ministers holding shares in a company, which he had bought with his own money, we should not be less scrupulous with regard to our Residents. Was a man with private interest of this kind in the country a suitable person to appoint as Resident there? Even Sir Andrew Clarke, who proposed the appointment, felt the incongruity, and so it was arranged that Mr. Davidson, before entering on his office, should transfer his pecuniary rights to some other person; but his letter announcing that this transfer would be made, shows that it was a mere formality. We then find that Mr. Davidson asked for the intervention of the Government to get the Sultan of Salangore to confirm the concession of the tin monopoly, and Sir Andrew Clarke objected to do so, unless the exclusive character of the concession was removed; and the concessionary was limited to one year for marking out the

  831
  places where he desired to dig, and two years to begin work. This was consented to. But the Sultan's deed of confirmation contains a remarkable stipulation; it is that, though the tax on other people's tin may be raised, the tax on the tin of the concessionary may not. Was this the stipulation of the concessionary or of the Resident? it matters not, they were the same person. What did the noble Earl say of this? He simply "feels an interest in it, as a promising attempt to extend British enterprize." I would here observe that no balance-sheet of the revenue has yet been published for Salangore or Perak. I come next to Mr. Birch and Mr. Braddell, formerly Attorney General at Singapore. Of the unfortunate Mr. Birch, for obvious reasons, I desire to say as little as possible. Mr. Braddell, though residing in Singapore, has taken part in all the proceedings in the Malay Peninsula as Secretary for Native States; and with regard to these two gentlemen I shall confine myself to reminding the noble Earl that in August, 1874, he received letters of Mr. Aitchison, which, to say the least, showed that the pecuniary relations of these gentlemen with Malay Rulers and others made them unfit for the duties which they subsequently have had to perform. On the 20th November, 1874, the Government and Council of Inquiry into Mr. Aitchison's statement reported upon them. That Report was so palpably unsatisfactory that it should have been sufficient to prompt the noble Earl without my communication of March 2, 1875, to provide better men for a public service, the exigencies of which he was fully aware of. If the noble Earl disputes this view, I must ask him to lay before your Lordships the Report of the Court of Inquiry, and the Correspondence relating to it. There has been a controversy between the Colonial Office and Sir William Jervois as to the cause of the outbreak against Mr. Birch. The Colonial Office has thought it right to attribute the murder of Mr. Birch to the change of policy introduced by Sir William Jervois. In my opinion it was unpremeditated, it arose immediately out of the imprudent act of the interpreter striking a Malay; at the same time I do not believe that act would have had the fatal result which immediately followed, if a store of hatred and ill-feeling had not accumulated in the
  832
  minds of the Malays. I find a witness saying that when the affair took place, Maharaja Lelah, the Chief of the village where it occurred, shouted from the steps of his house—
  "This is not the will of the Raja, or his order; it is our will, because we cannot stand it any longer. Others' houses have been burned, and where are we to go to, if our houses are burned too! It is better that we should die at once."
  This allusion to burning is cleared up by a letter from a writer on the spot, which appeared in The Times of December 25th, which says—
  "He (Mr. Birch) had made many enemies among the small Chiefs of Perak. The Chiefs are a bad lot, and on several occasions he had to resort to strong measures, such as burning the houses of refractory head, men, by way of example."
  So that while the Colonial Office fancied that the Resident was acting by advice, he was advising by burning. But as the noble Earl wrote to Sir William Jervois, April 8th, 1875, that he had been unable to satisfy himself that they (the Residents then in office) will possess the special qualifications which are absolutely required, and left to Sir William Jervois an opportunity of considering the whole subject, Sir William Jervois, and not the Secretary of State, must bear the responsibility of having left Mr. Birch in a position for which he was unfitted. I think I have now shown that there has been on the part of the Colonial Department dilatoriness and neglect in watching over the conduct of the Residents, and the selection of them, and a habit of leaving the officials to do very much as they thought fit; in short, a want of attention and due diligence at a critical time, and the consequence has been loss of life and expenditure, and that the whole Malay Peninsula has been set in a blaze, and the inhabitants, many of whom have been driven from their homes, have been made hostile to us, and we must either retrace our steps to non-intervention or assume the responsibility and the cost of securing proper government for the people we have now deprived of their independence. I wish to make a few observations on the future policy of this country with regard to the Malay Peninsula. There are said to be three courses which might be pursued—namely, letting it alone without intermeddling; meddling

  833
  with Residents; and annexation. I adhere to the opinion which I have already expressed in favour of the first course, because our Empire is overgrown, and enlarging it in the Malay Peninsula will entail much expense on this country only for the benefit of the Chinese and a few merchants and officials in Singapore. But as it is now, perhaps, useless to put forward that view except with respect to Sunghie Ujong, with regard to which the Secretary of State seems to be of the same opinion as myself, I will only consider the other two alternatives. That of Residents must, however, be divided into several shades. I am glad to find that the noble Earl states that the plan of Sir William Jervois of governing by British officials in the name of Sultan, is only annexation under another name; in fact, it might be called hypocritical or dishonest annexation, if there was such a thing as honest annexation. Experience has shown that Sir Andrew Clarke's method ended in the same result as that of Sir William Jervois. There remains the plan which the noble Earl intends to carry out, and which he says he originally intended. I heartily wish he may succeed, and secure to the Malays that prosperity and good treatment which they have a right to expect from this country, which has interfered with them only by the right of might. And here I should state that I am convinced of the rectitude of the intentions of the noble Earl; I am only complaining of his dilatoriness, or inability to carry them out. But in order to succeed it will be necessary for the noble Earl to appoint a higher class of men than those that have been hitherto employed; they must be directly responsible to himself, and be independent of the Singapore Council and indifferent to the favour of the Singapore Press and mercantile body. Not only should copies of all letters from the Government to the Residents be sent home, so that the Secretary of State may not again have to complain, as he has lately done, that Sir Andrew Clarke's instructions to the Residents had never come under his eye, but the Colonial Office might do well to adopt the plan of the Foreign Office, by instructing the Residents to send their despatches to the Colonial Office under flying seal to the Governor of the Straits, in the same way as some of Her Majesty's Envoys send their despatches to the Foreign Secretary
  834
  under flying seal to the Embassies at Paris and elsewhere. But if the Colonial Department should not make a very careful selection of officials for the Malay Peninsula and exercise a severe control over them, further troubles, bloodshed, and expenditure may be expected; and if the choice lay between annexation and administration of Malay States by dictatorial Residents I should certainly prefer annexation, since in that case the Malays would at least obtain the protection of British law. Sir William Jervois very candidly wrote on the 16th October, 1875—
  "By ruling in the name of the Sultan the form of government will be more adapted to the conditions of the case, and will enable us to deal easily with matters that might be difficult of solution under English law."
  I will ask leave to read an extract from a letter from a gentleman well acquainted with Singapore, written in March last—
  "You will be rather astonished to find that the Singapore people (British) are opposed to annexation, and in favour of a Protectorate. This is, however, easily explained. In the former case the Malays and their land will be subject to British laws. In the latter the will of the Governor or Commissioner will be the same, and grants of land and other advantages can be easily made over to Europeans, the ultimate end being that all the good land will be in their hands before long. For this reason, as also because I believe the Malays will have a much fairer chance under British law, I am decidedly in favour of annexation. There is nothing between this and leaving them alone. In any case you had better inquire into this land question, as I hear that some large grants have already been given. Britishers seem to think that if enough rice land is left for feeding Malays that is all that is required."
  I hope the noble Earl will make inquiry as to these grants of land. The Blue Books contain no reference whatever to the burning of houses, and plunder and sale by auction of the plough cattle in the county adjoining Sunghie Ujong. The noble Earl spoke of the reports of these proceedings as "scraps of newspapers; "but I have found from the Barbadoes newspapers that he does not attach an invidious sense to that word, since he spoke of "scraps of official despatches" to a deputation of planters. But from the doubts expressed by the Secretary of State in his despatch of June 1st, as to a foreign element in the force to be employed for the Residents, he would

  835
  appear to have some misgivings as to Sikh, Arab, or other levies, for he could not mean Her Majesty's European regiments, and as it is essential that proceedings such as those of the Arab force under M. Fontaine should not recur again, I will ask your Lordships' indulgence for a few moments longer to prove by Christian law and theology that these men were brigands, and as far as concerns the men themselves Mussulman law is identical with Christian law, only that it is rather more precisely declared. The noble Earl called this force Native Irregulars. They were neither; they were only natives in the sense that we are all natives of some place, and they were not irregulars, which is a military term for a particular formation. Let us suppose that this expedition was French, and had invaded Siam from Cochin China, and that instead of this Arab force there was one composed of Germans. We should all say that they were mercenary cut-throats. If they had been Englishmen we should say in addition that they had violated the Foreign Enlistment Act. Now, the Foreign Enlistment Acts were not passed merely to retain Englishmen for the King's service, but in obedience to the Law of Nations. Two Acts were passed in the reign of George II., but the Act of 1819 is the earliest of which there is any Parliamentary history, and I find in it that the Earl of Harrowby used arguments in favour of the Bill founded on Grotius, Vattel, and Puffendorff, and that the Earl of Carnarvon said that—
  "He (Lord Harrowby) had marshalled all the Dutch and German jurists in his ranks, and had turned all the scraps and quotations which could be taken from them to the very best use to which ingenuity could turn them."—[1 Hansard, xl. 1414.]
  Now I have not selected this extract from that debate in order to show the hereditary origin of the use of the word scraps by my noble Friend, but in order to bar his making light of Grotius and other jurists—because he will not now willingly plagiarize his ancestor. Well, Grotius did not invent or originate the law that he lays down; he only follows the teaching of the old Catholic catechisms respecting the 6th Commandment, and he quotes St. Augustin as saying that it is not a sin to bear arms, but a sin to serve for plunder. But if Catholic Catechisms are not considered as carrying weight,
  836
  what was the doctrine and practice of the early Christians? In the year 286 the Roman Emperor brought the The-ban Legion, which was composed of Christians, into Switzerland, where they were ordered to attack and exterminate the Bagaudæ, a Swiss tribe, an expedition similar to that of Sunghie Ujong. This they refused to do, as it was an unlawful order. The Legion was decimated, but as it persisted in its refusal, the whole of it was massacred without resistance on its part, with its commander, St. Maurice, who left his name to the town near the lake of Geneva, where this massacre happened. M. Fontaine's Arabs were not British subjects, and by their own law were strictly prohibited from taking part in such an expedition and became brigands, and if they killed any one, murderers; and if those who offer bribes are as guilty of bribery as those who take bribes, what is to be inferred of those who enrol brigands, or sanction such enrolment? I have now the honour to move the Resolution of which I have given Notice. I do not know whether it will receive any support, but I feel certain that at least the noble Earl will, from his knowledge of the facts, yield his inner assent to it; and I would suggest to my noble Friend to alter the words of the Resolution, and to admit frankly and candidly that, from whatever cause it arose, there is reason to regret that the attention of his Department was not given more in time to the Malay Peninsula and to the acts of the Residents.
  Moved to resolve, That this House regrets that the Colonial Department did not bestow more attention on the affairs of the Malay Peninsula from the time of the Pangkok Treaty in January 1874 to October 1875.—(The Lord Stanley of Alderley.)
  THE EARL OF CARNARVONsaid, it would be extremely difficult for him, without unreasonably wasting their Lordships' time, to follow the noble Lord (Lord Stanley of Alderley) through the many subjects referred to in the discursive speech with which he had introduced his Resolution, and which was practically a Vote of Censure of a very serious character upon Her Majesty's Government. While listening to the noble Lord he could not help asking himself whether the noble Lord was in sober earnest in asking the House to

  837
  agree to this Vote of Censure—which should never have been placed upon the Notice Paper unless the noble Lord was prepared to support it by strong and serious argument. The noble Lord was good enough to give him (the Earl of Carnarvon) credit for good intentions; but surely it was strangely inconsistent with that view of the case to propose a Vote of Censure. The Resolution ran as follows:—
  "That this House regrets that the Colonial Department did not bestow more attention on the affairs of the Malay Peninsula from the time of the Pangkok Treaty in January 1874 to October 1875."
  This proposition raised three separate and distinct questions—first, intention; but really to ask for a Vote of Censure on such a point as that, was to turn what was a most important and deliberate act of Parliament into a jest. Secondly, the noble Lord asked the House to express its "regret that the Colonial Department "had failed in its duty. Did their Lordships ever remember before a Department thus attacked? If anybody was responsible it was himself and himself alone. He protested against such attacks upon those who were discharging the duties of a public office with self-sacrifice and self-devotion, and with so much ability—and on that point he knew he should have the assent of both sides of the House. Then the noble Lord censured him because sufficient attention was not paid to the affairs of the Peninsula. What did he mean by "attention?" It was a wholly relative term; and he denied that either the Ministers or the officials could be taxed with any want of attention. It was very difficult to disentangle the noble Lord's charge from the mass of details with which he had overlaid it; but there were, at all events, some points on which he felt bound in courtesy to the noble Lord and to the House to give such explanation as lay in his power. The noble Lord's charge, when closely examined, appeared to resolve itself into this—that by the Treaty of Pangkok the English Residents had been converted from advising into controlling agencies—and that he (the Earl of Carnarvon) as Secretary of State ought to have employed any European force during the last two years in support of the Residents. It would be in the recollection of the House that in 1867 the Go-
  838
  vernment of the Straits Settlements was transferred from the India Office to the Colonial Office. From that date until 1873 the burden of every despatch that had been sent out by successive Colonial Ministers to the Residents at Perak was that they should interfere as little as possible with the affairs of the Peninsula, and the avoidance as far as possible of political complications. In 1873 a change occurred which was, he believed, forced upon the Government of the day by the overwhelming stress of circumstances. In that year, matters came to a serious head. The Chinese faction were engaged in a deadly feud with the Malays; blood was spilt, the trade of the country was being destroyed, anarchy reigned—and unless the whole district was to go into sheer ruin it was absolutely necessary that some control should be exercised by our Representatives in that country. On the 20th September, 1873, the noble Earl opposite, his Predecessor in office (the Earl of Kimberley), looking to all these circumstances, wrote to Sir Andrew Clarke, who had been appointed Governor, directing him to apply a remedy to this anarchical state of things. Sir Andrew Clarke, proceeding to act upon these instructions, ultimately agreed with the Chiefs in the Peninsula upon a Treaty which settled the question of disputed succession; appointed provisional Residents; and, while pacifying the Chinese rioters, inflicted punishment upon such of them as deserved it. Shortly after this a change took place in the Government of this country, and he (the Earl of Carnarvon) communicated to Sir Andrew Clarke his approval of the arrangements he had made. He thought the subject was one which required much consideration before he expressed even a qualified approval of the course that had been taken; but afterwards he gave a practical sanction to the Treaty engagements, and more recently still he had impressed upon the Governor, in successive despatches, the importance of exercising the utmost caution in dealing with the affairs of the Settlements. During the whole time that Sir William Jervois was in office, only two despatches on the subject of the Settlements reached the Colonial Office, and these described the condition of the country as being everything that could reasonably be desired. It was, therefore, with the utmost asto-

  839
  nishment that he heard that the Governor had issued a Proclamation appointing Commissioners at the Native Courts, and making other alterations. The consequence was the outbreak which resulted in the cruel and barbarous murder of Mr. Birch, the British Resident at Perak. It was necessary at once to take strong measures. The troops on the spot were increased from 200 to 300, and after several conflicts, the measures taken put an absolute termination to the outbreak within two months of its commencement. He did not wish to go into the discussions that had arisen between Sir William Jervois and himself—those who wished to study them would find them in the despatches. He could not accept his noble Friend's views that because he saw reason to differ from Sir William Jervois on some points, though he agreed with him in others, it was his duty to recall him. He had a high opinion of that gentleman, formed on his past services, and however erroneous his proceedings in the first instance he had hastened to retrieve them. An important question at issue was whether Sir William Jervois was or was not right in making of his own motion, and without authority from home, a great and serious change in the policy hitherto pursued by England in reference to the government of the Straits Settlements, and on this point he was bound to admit that in his view Sir William Jervois was wholly wrong. In such cases as these the authority should emanate from the Secretary of State, who was responsible to Parliament for the policy adopted. The real question was—what ought to be our future policy with regard to the Malay Peninsula? The ultimate responsibility of colonial government had to be accounted for to the Crown and to Parliament, and a policy which might affect the whole Peninsula and perhaps entail a great expense must originate in the Government in England. On the general question he understood the noble Lord (Lord Stanley of Alderley) to lay down three courses as possible—in the first place, whether it was possible for Her Majesty's Government to withdraw altogether from interference with the Native Governments; in the second place, whether a policy of complete annexation was possible; and in the third whether the old system of advising by means of
  840
  Residents could not be re-adopted and continued with certain modifications. With respect to withdrawal, it was simply not to be thought of—it was an unworthy policy, and would be a dangerous policy—instead of relieving us from responsibilities, it would increase complications. It need not, therefore, be discussed. Then, as to annexation, it was a question which had excited the greatest attention at home and on the spot. He drew an extremely small distinction between a virtual and a formal annexation—on the contrary, there were advantages in a formal which did not exist in a merely virtual annexation. Now, the local pressure brought to bear on the Colonial Government in favour of annexation was very great. A great deal of intemperate language had been used, and, to show the prevailing local opinion, he would read an extract from one of the Straits papers of considerable influence. It said—
  "The serious nature of the news from Perak and Salangore suggests some reflections. We feel sure that the Government will have the hearty support of every man of common sense in the three Settlements, in taking the severest and most peremptory measures in this matter. It is the colony's quarrel; very well, the colony will settle it. We say this because we apprehend that the Home Government may possibly intervene. Nobody can say now-a-days what a British Government may do; but we distinctly think that the colony should, on its own responsibility, do what is right and proper, and, above all, do it quickly. Furthermore, if the Home Government show any signs of shrinking in this most righteous quarrel, then this colony will rebel, as it once very nearly did before, not against Her Majesty the Queen, but Her Majesty's ignorant and misguided Government."
  This language would tend to show the nature and amount of pressure which had been used. The local idea was this—that there was vast room for the development of trade, and that trade would be fostered by annexation. But there was a widely different side to the question, and it was well before deciding to count the cost. Annexation involved the occupation of a district of from 10,000 to 15,000 square miles. Even if the transaction were effected peacefully it would still be an extremely costly operation. They would have to set up the whole machinery of administration, and in any event should maintain a large military force. The mines, which were said to be a source of inexhaustible wealth, were almost universally private property.

  841
  There was no agriculture in the country on which they could depend; and the only solution of the question would be the importation of a large number of Chinese labourers which would in itself create an element of dissension and difficulty. If, on the other hand, they annexed by compulsion, of course the cost would be much greater, and they would have to deal with all the difficulties which the Dutch had to encounter. They should in a matter of this kind have regard to Imperial considerations, and should not forget that it affected not only China, but India. They were bound to scan the whole political position, and not to fix their eyes simply upon one spot when such a question arose—and in that view he was of opinion that it would be most imprudent to do anything that would lead them to a wider field, and that the Government should put down its foot steadily against any proposal of annexation. With respect to the system of Residents to which the noble Lord (Lord Stanley of Alderley) had referred—that system had been tried with great success in India, and in one place in the south of the Peninsula it had been already attended with good results. He freely admitted that they should always learn by experience, and it had been the object of Her Majesty's Government, while adhering to the system of Residents, to do so subject to certain modifications which by the light of experience seemed to be necessary. They proposed that there should be in Perak and elsewhere a Council composed of Chiefs of eminence and position in the country to assist the Resident. The use of the Councils would probably be more confined to Perak than the other States; but they would have the machinery and could apply wherever it was thought necessary. He believed that in consequence of those Councils the influence of the Government would be increased rather than diminished. Following the course which had been adopted with great success by the Dutch in Java, he proposed that each Resident should have a body-guard. Had Mr. Birch possessed a small armed force, the tragedy they all deplored would no doubt have been prevented. Lastly, he had deemed it wise to retain Abdullah as nominal Sovereign of Perak, weak and incapable as he had proved himself to be. Those who were familiar with Malay affairs
  842
  knew how much importance attached to questions of race and family, and although at some future time it might be possible to make a change, the least dangerous course at present in his opinion was to retain Abdullah as Sovereign—provided, of course, he remained true and loyal to his duties. On the whole, he believed the general effect of the arrangements now contemplated would be good. He looked among other results for this—that the Government would have a better knowledge of the real feelings of the country, and obtain to a greater degree the concurrence of the Chiefs and rulers of those territories than had hitherto been the case. His noble Friend opposite (the Earl of Kimberley), in one of his despatches, had laid great stress on that joint, and he (the Earl of Carnarvon) had done the same. The Malay was not a savage, unamenable to good treatment; he would answer to education if it were given him—and the course the Government were now taking was the most likely to educate him up to the standard of good government which was desirable. In conclusion, he would only say that what had occurred in the Malay Peninsula was but another illustration of the many difficulties and responsibilities of Colonial Empire in the East. Our authority was beset by dangers of every kind, against which the utmost watchfulness at home was sometimes of no avail. He quite agreed with the noble Lord (Lord Stanley of Alderley) that the only course to be pursued was to watch very closely the accounts which might be transmitted from the spot, and to require from our officials diligent attention to local circumstances and hearty co-operation in carrying out the policy laid down. Looking at the question in all its bearings, he submitted that the noble Lord had not made out a case for any censure of the Colonial Department.
  THE EARL OF KIMBERLEYsaid, he agreed with most that had been said in reply to the noble Lord's speech, and believing that the noble Lord the Colonial Secretary was justified in the course he had taken, he could not support the Motion. The subject was, no doubt, of very considerable importance. The position which this country occupied in the Peninsula was a very peculiar one. Formerly the Portuguese held a great supremacy there, the Dutch, succeeded

  843
  to the Portuguese, and ultimately the influence devolved upon the English. Many persons supposed that we might leave the affairs of the Peninsula alone, but no one who studied the actual circumstances of the case could fail to convince himself that a policy of non intervention was impossible. When European settlements of such importance as those of Penang and Singapore were planted side by side with Malay States, it was impossible for them to avoid exercising great influence either for good or evil on the surrounding population, and with that influence came responsibility. The occurrence of the Chinese riots in Perak, coupled with the danger to the Native States arising from Europeans obtaining large concessions and employing them to acquire political influence, rendered our intervention absolutely necessary. Of course we had no right to prevent European influence from penetrating into the Malay States, but it was our duty to put those States as far as possible in a position to meet the new condition of things. All those circumstances seemed to him to have rendered it necessary to take the state of the Peninsula into consideration with a view to some change of policy. No doubt Sir Andrew Clarke went beyond his instructions, but he thought the noble Earl had done right in upholding his proceedings. He was sorry the noble Lord should have felt himself compelled to pass a reproof upon Sir William Jervois; but under the circumstances he felt bound to say he thought his noble Friend had taken the correct view of the matter. At the same time it was due to Sir William Jervois, who was a distinguished public servant, to say that he had only done what appeared to him to be his duty. He had no doubt committed an error in taking steps before receiving advice from home; but he entirely agreed that it would be unjust to recall him because of that mistake. He was a man of great abilities, and had proved himself a good administrator and Colonial Governor. On the whole, the policy adopted by the Government seemed to be the policy least open to objection. The mistake made by Sir William Jervois was to suppose that because Residents were appointed therefore it was necessary that they should have their own way, and that the States in question, being no longer independent,
  844
  ought to be annexed. But in that course of reasoning there were a great many assumptions which were not quite justifiable. It was possible to give Native States wholesome advice without taking them altogether under our control. For an example of the success of that system we had only to look to India. Our system, therefore, should be administered so as not to destroy the Malayan Governments, but to support, advise, and guide them. On the whole, looking at the position we held in the Malay Peninsula, although it might be open to all the objections to which an intermediate course was always liable, yet it was the wisest and most judicious that we could assume; and he was glad to hear from his noble Friend that in all the States where it had been tried, except at Perak, the system had succeeded.
  LORD LAWRENCEsaid, it seemed to him, as far as he could judge, that some blame attached not only to the Governor of the Straits and the Governor of Penang, but also in some degree to the Colonial Office. But the real point as it struck him was that the Governor of Penang in the first instance committed a great mistake in preferring Abdullah to Ismail. Ismail was a man of stronger character than Abdullah, and, above all, he was a man whom the people of the country and the other Chiefs preferred. That appeared to have been the origin of the whole matter. Moreover, our representatives in those parts were placed in a most trying position through having no force near to help them in circumstances of extremity. A greater amount of force—two Native and one English regiments he believed—was formerly kept at the Straits and at Penang, but it had been reduced on the ground of expense, so that when disturbance broke out and troops were wanted they had to be sent for from China, India, and elsewhere. If under the previous system of non-interference they had more troops at the Straits and at Penang, how much more necessary was it that they should have a force of some strength there when they began to change their policy; and if the policy of having Residents at the Native Courts was to be maintained, there must be a considerable increase of military force there to uphold their authority. As to whether they should

  845
  wholly give up interfering with the internal affairs of the Malay Straits—or, in other words, whether they should withdraw their Residents from Perak and Laroot—or whether they should annex the country, he thought the policy indicated by the noble Earl the Colonial Secretary was the right one. If, in the course of time, it was found that the system of maintaining a Resident at Perak would not work, it would be open to us to re-consider our position.
  LORD BLACHFORDsaid, that he expressed his views reluctantly as they differed widely from those entertained by far higher authorities. It was true that when a State fell into a condition that was a source of danger to the neighbouring States, as had happened in the case of Laroot, those neighbourshad a right to call upon the Ruler to place his territory in a position that should not be dangerous, and if he failed to do that then they had a right to take measures for our own safety, even although those measures might amount to the annexation of the misgoverned territory. But this reason did not apply to the Governments of Perak and Salangore, the practical annexation of which (for in these Provinces the advice of the Residents was not only to be asked, but "acted on,") had no such justification, and was therefore, in his opinion, improper. He respected the energy of English merchants and the public spirit of colonial officers, but that energy and public spirit was apt in the British Colonies to cause a commercial and official pressure for annexation of neighbouring territory. It was to that pressure, and to confident expectations which had proved unhappily fallacious, that the Treaty of Pangkok was due. That Treaty was, in his view, a false step, which, as far as Perak and Salangore were concerned, he would wish to see retraced. He feared that the desire to hold a consistent course would lead to what was called "throwing good money after bad. "According to the plan of his noble Friend, the Rajah of Perak, instructed by a Resident, advised by a Council, and removable if he failed to do as he was bid, appeared to him much like the Governor of a Crown Colony. In his own judgment the British Government should be represented in these States, if at all, not by a Resident whose so-called advice had to be enforced by British power, but by
  846
  an officer in the nature of a Consul, who, if his counsels were not followed, could be withdrawn without discredit.
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEY, in reply, said: I will not take up your Lordships' time by replying to some of the rhetorical artifices of my noble Friend. It is, perhaps, too much to expect that the noble Earl should admit that he has not given his attention to these affairs; the noble Earl has said that he was now giving them all his attention, and that he would do so in future, and therefore it will be more graceful for me, with the permission of the House, to withdraw the Motion.
  Motion (by leave of the House) withdrawn.

WILD FOWL PRESERVATION BILL.
(The Lord Henniker.)
WILD FOWL PRESERVATION BILL.

  (NO. 134.) SECOND READING.
  Order of the Day for the Second Reading, read.
  LORD HENNIKER,in moving that the Bill be now read a second time, said, it was a Bill to prevent the present rapid decrease of wild fowl in this country. There were two causes of decrease, one indirect—namely, the increase of drainage and the reclamation of waste lands. This, of course, could not be dealt with; but the other, the direct cause, could be dealt with—namely, the shooting and destroying these birds during the breeding season. These birds had been included in the Small Birds Protection Act of 1872; but that Act had been spoilt, as far as these birds were concerned, in Committee in the House of Commons, for the penalties had been made so low to meet the case of the small birds, that the value of these birds themselves was greater than the penalty imposed. This Bill had been approved by the House of Commons this Session by a majority of 339 to 15, and it was drawn on the lines of the Sea Bird Preservation Act, 1869, which had worked very well, and led to a very satisfactory result. He might add, that the Committee of the British Association, on the close time for these and other birds, had gone very carefully into the list of birds included in the Bill.
  Motion agreed to; Bill read 2a accordingly, and committed to a Committee of the Whole House on Monday next.

TURKEY—MURDER OF THE CONSULS AT SALONICA.—QUESTIONS.
EARL DE LA WARRasked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Whether there is any objection to laying upon the Table of the House the Papers and Correspondence relative to the late outrage at Salonica and the trial and execution of the persons implicated in the murders?
EARL GRANVILLE: Before the noble Earl answers that Question I wish to put to him another of a larger nature which I understand he will have no objection to answer. I wish to ask him whether, on account of the change in the state of affairs in the East, the noble Earl can state when it will be possible to lay upon the Table the Papers which will give information to Parliament with regard to the course which has up to this time been pursued by Her Majesty's Government in the Eastern Question?
THE EARL OF DERBY: My Lords, considering that all efforts in favour of pacification have unfortunately failed, and that war has broken out between Servia and Montenegro on the one hand and Turkey on the other, there is no diplomatic reason why the Correspondence showing the general course of events and the policy pursued by Her Majesty's Government should not be laid upon the Table. The Correspondence, I may mention, is somewhat voluminous, and, as a great deal of the information which it contains has been confidentially communicated by foreign States, we shall have to consult those States as to whether they are willing to consent to the publication of it. That may cause some delay, but we shall lose as little time as possible in obtaining their consent. So far as the policy of Her Majesty's Government is concerned, I am perfectly ready to lay these Papers before your Lordships. With respect to the Question of the noble Earl (Earl De La Warr), I think it would be better to include the Papers relating to it in the general Correspondence.

ARMY—PAYMASTERS IN THE MILITIA.

  QUESTION.
  THE EARL OF SANDWICHasked the Under Secretary for War, What allowances will be given to an officer of
  848
  Militia called up to undertake the duties of an Adjutant and Paymaster while that office was vacant? The noble Earl complained that he could obtain no allowance for the gentleman whom, under the circumstances stated in the Question, he had some short time since appointed to discharge the duties of paymaster of his regiment.
  VISCOUNT ENFIELDsaid, that about two years ago a like circumstance had happened in his own regiment. He thought a commanding officer should be simply bound to train his men, and not also to act, as he was now required to do in certain cases, as Paymaster.
  EARL CADOGANregretted that his noble Friend should have to complain of the War Office, but the Regulations relating to his Question were that during the interval of retirement of an adjutant and the appointment of his successor the quartermaster acted as adjutant under the responsibility of an officer in command, and received 5s. a-day extra pay; but in case of regiments which had no quartermaster, the rule was to require the officer in command to act as paymaster, but no pay was attached. The injustice had been felt, and it was under contemplation to make a rule that the paymasters of the Brigade Depôts should also act as paymasters of Militia regiments.

SLAVE TRADE BILL.—(No. 135.)
(The Marquess of Salisbury.)
SLAVE TRADE BILL.—(No. 135.)

  COMMITTEE.
  House in Committee (according to Order).
  LORD STANLEY OF ALDERLEYmoved an Amendment on Clause 1, the object of which was to make the subjects of Native States residing under British protection at Zanzibar and Muscat and violating the laws relating to the Slave Trade, punishable by British Courts of Law in India only upon the consent of the Native State whose subjects the offenders might be, and without which there could be no right of jurisdiction. The protection given by the British Government out of India to the subjects of the Native States, was a consequence of having precluded them by Treaties from entering into diplomatic relations with other Powers; but this protection did not confer a right of

  849
  jurisdiction, and punishment was not a correlative of protection. As the Rao of Cutch had expressed his willingness to allow the proposed jurisdiction, and as there were very few other Rulers whose subjects were concerned, there could be no difficulty in obtaining these consents, and to refuse to do so would be to be arbitrary for arbitrariness' sake.
  Amendment moved, to leave out third paragraph of Preamble, and in Clause 1, line 29, after ("Majesty") insert ("and if the consent of such Prince or State to grant jurisdiction under this Act shall have been obtained and laid before each House of Parliament.")—(The Lord Stanley of Alderley.)
  THE EARL OF NORTHBROOKsaid, the Amendment of his noble Friend was based upon an entire misconception of Indian affairs. He cordially concurred with the objects of the Bill, but thought that both this Bill and some others now before Parliament would be more satisfactorily dealt with if they had been previously referred to the Government of India. While he had no doubt the Princes of India would willingly join the Government of India in putting down the slave trade, it would be objectionable to allow such matters to depend upon their consent, as proposed by the noble Lord (Lord Stanley of Alderley).
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, that with reference to the question raised by the noble Earl (the Earl of Northbrook) of submitting questions of policy to the Indian Government, he did not consider that was essential in all cases. Of course, there were cases in which such references were made; but there was no consultation with the Government of India before the great Act which re-constituted the Government of India was passed. In fact, each case must depend upon its own merits. In this particular case, if a reference was to be made, he should prefer the Government of Bombay, which was more likely to possess accurate information on it than the Government of India. He did not, however, wish noble Lords opposite to have the impression that this Bill had been brought in without the opinion of Indian authorities being taken. All he said the other night was that he had no official Correspondence on the subject to lay on the Table. Indian information was not
  850
  necessarily confined to India, for there were Peers in that House who knew as much of the circumstances, and particularly of the law involved in the case, as any one could know. With respect to the main portion of the Bill—that which related to the slave trade generally—he saw a noble Lord opposite who could tell them more than any one in India. The Government had had recourse to the best authorities as to what would be the most suitable provisions.
  VISCOUNT HALIFAXasked what Act the noble Marquess referred to? When he passed the India Council Act, there was the fullest previous consultation with the authorities in India.
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYsaid, he referred to the Act of 1858.
  VISCOUNT HALIFAXsaid, that was not in his time. He was sorry to see every obstacle thrown in the way of such mutual consultation. Surely those on the spot might be expected to know more about the subject than the Home Government, or the Law Officers of the Crown.
  THE LORD CHANCELLORsaid, the Bill took the law of India as it stood, and was, in fact, intended to remedy an oversight in a former Act.
  EARL GRANVILLEsaid, if it were a mere explanatory Act no more need be said; but the explanation now placed upon it by the noble and learned Lord was very different from that given by the noble Marquess in introducing it; but his noble Friend (the Earl of Northbrook) had pointed out the desirability that not only this Bill, but some others should, as there was no necessity for immediate legislation, be deferred until the House had further information.
  After a few words from Lord Lawrence in favour of delay,
  THE MARQUESS OF SALISBURYreplied that, of course, if Parliament wished for further information, the Bill could be postponed, but delay would be exceedingly inconvenient, and put off a measure which was much wanted. At the present moment there might arise cases which the Courts, for want of such a Bill, would have to decide the wrong way.
  Amendment (by leave of the Committee) withdrawn.
  Bill reported, without Amendment; and to be read 3a To-morrow.

  SAINT VINCENT, TOBAGO, AND GRENADA CONSTITUTION BILL [H.L.]
  A Bill to make provision for the Government of the Islands of Saint Vincent, Tobago, and Grenada, and their Dependencies—Was presented by The Earl of Carnarvon; read 1a. (No. 156.)
  House adjourned at Eight o'clock, till to-morrow, half past Ten o'clock.